[Sherwood] yes we do need to wait for him at least before lighting the candles
[Shewrood] I guess five or ten minutes should give those who're coming the time
[pierre] okay *** CAENECG15 (~CAENECG15@ns.ensicaen.ismra.fr) has joined channel #epclive
[CAENECG15] mna says hi
[CAENECG15] mna: is ithis epclive?
[CAENECG15] mna: this must not be the place?
[Sherwood] mna you're here, we're live but on hold
[CAENECG15] Mmna: any one hear me?
[pierre] hi mna -- funky nick
[pierre] yes indeed
[pierre] which "place" are you looking for?
[CAENECG15] Mna: oh...
[CAENECG15] mna: want to to go to epclive
[pierre] can you read this, mna? youy are on epclive
[CAENECG15] mna: yes, i can yread this . . . live? cool.
[Jordam] you're here, yes
[Sherwood]its' just occurred to me that lines appear on all our screens in
[Jordam] that's the drawback and the glory
[pierre] Ken, there is a double channel running -- chris funk is on the phone & he is gabbing with jerry on some other channel...
[Sherwood]where are they...?
[Jordam] oh.. maybe some EPCLIVE going on not on the undernet?
[Sherwood]did they '/serv undernet.org'?
[Sherwood]are other people there???like ... where's the real place?
[pierre] no, he says they have linked into the undernet. XChris sez he did the same thing he did l;ast week
[Jordam] everybody knows that this is nowhere *** You are now talking to channel #EPCLIVE *** sherwood has left channel #epclive *** sherwood (email@example.com) has joined channel #EPCLIVE *** Users on #EPCLIVE: sherwood CAENECG15 Jordam pierre @X *** #EPCLIVE 815638406
[Jordam] kenneth's left though
[pierre] no he's back
[Jordam] upsy daisy
[Sherwood]pierre...can you ask chris to try the '/serv undernet.org'
[Sherwood]and then /join #EPCLIVE ?
[pierre] thanks jordan -- we've had a great time doing it -- though now,as we're finishing the second volume we's getting a bit tired...
[pierre] ken, chris sez that's what he did! he used the exact same sequence I gave him last week & which got him here then
[Sherwood]maybe they're on 'EPCLIVE' not '#EPCLIVE'
[pierre] can't get to jerry, he's at UCSD in their computer center
[Sherwood]the channel is probably displayed on a black bar, lower screen
[pierre] no, chris is using the pound sign
[pierre] chris has hung up now (I have a dedicated line, so canphone while on the machina) chris doesn't
[Sherwood]well what say you, will they come, should we ease into it or roll 'officially'?
[pierre] Dunno. Maybe we should roll officially -- or semi-officially, as I'm half the team...
[pierre] Though this is truly wierd -- the channel and its double...
________________WELCOME__TO__EPCLIVE_________________ * * Event--Poems for the Millennium: a discussion with Jerome Rothenberg and Pierre Joris on their newly released book of Modern and Postmodern Poetry * * __________December_11_1995______6:30pm_EST___________ ____________________________________________________
From the Introduction by Jerome Rothenberg and Pierre
Joris to _Poems for the Millennium_:
"This book began under far different conditions -- in
the middle 1980s, with the reality of the "cold war"
and of the "specter of communism" (K.Marx) still
haunting Europe & the world. These were among the
defining circumstances of our time, and while they
continued it seemed that the twentieth century as we
knew it would never end -- that it would outlast its
final decade & that the context of the life from which
our poems arise would remain, largely, the way it was
for us. With the changes of the 1990s came a strange
sense of a return to the century's beginnings: a time
dominated by nationalism and ethnic conflict, when
totalitarian ideologies were still in their early
stages & science & technology were on the move towards
new & ever faster transformations.
It was circumstances like these to which the century's
first modernists were responding politically &
artistically. The difference then was in their sense
that the norms of the culture were--like its politics
-- open to unprecedented changes, which they accepted
exuberantly or from which they recoiled with equal
passion. For most of those represented in these pages,
such changes were centered in the conditions of their
work as poets & artists -- an intuition or prophecy, as
William Blake had said it the century before, that
"poetry fetter'd, fetters the human race," or, by
[pierre] Ken, you & I are alone -- the other two have been pinged out...
extension, that poetry set free, can free or open up
the human mind."
____________________________________________________ ] ____________________________________________________
Question to (Rothenberg) and Joris:
Are there poets today who for you "respond politically
& artistically" with power (equal to that of Futurists
or Dadaists) to the conditions of nationalism,
technology, and economy? It seems to me that writing
or even reading such poetry would require many
readjustments, particularly in the academy. Put more
bluntly, has this work been repressed (a la Carrie
Nelson) and what are the implications of its recovery
____________________________________________________ *** Signoff: CJH (Homer was here!)
[Sherwood](yes we're alone, I'll cut the formality!)
[pierre] Ken, we have been joined by Carol! who I think was on the other channel...
[Sherwood]and Carol is Jerry's double?
[pierre] Your question, Ken -- will only be gotten two in the second volume obviously!
[pierre] that is possible
[Sherwood]Right, but by this work I also mean what's in volume 1.
[Sherwood]When one thinks how long it has been since _Revolution of the Word_
[pierre] BUT YES, THERE ARE POETS TODAY WHO RESPOND politiucally and artistically with power -- the response may be different because the modes of intervention & community are different
[Sherwood]for instance, and the versions/visions of poetry which have grown up
[Sherwood]without having fed off these/those plants.
[pierre] For example, the post WWII groups differ considerably from those of the first half of the century -- ideologically there doesn't seem to be that kind of revolutionary optimism (& blindness...)
[Sherwood]Part of the lack of revolutionary 'imaginings' might come tho from the
[Sherwood]repression/submergence of significant predecessors?
[pierre] That kind of work is always to some extent repressed -- in certain countries more than in others. In Algeria, say, a poet friend had his throat slit last year for speaking out; in America, the repression of such work is much more benign, at leats on the surface. Check ourt Jed Rasula's AMERICAN POETRY WAX MUSEUM which addresses that question from the US angle. *** JerryR (~firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined channel #epclive
[JerryR] hello. This is JerryR finally getting thru to the rest of you, I think
[pierre] Yes, indeed it is useful to have the significant p
[redecessors, & those in Jerry's REVOLUTION have of course to some extent been taken up in MILLENNIUM
[Sherwood]welcome Jerry yhr /we're here!
[pierre] Wel;come Jerome!
[JerryR] Greetings to all. Did Chris F get thru also?
[Sherwood]we were just talking about political/revolutionary imaginings
[pierre] Not yet, but he will!
[JerryR] Okay go ahead with the conversation & I'll get thru when it becomes clear to me *** penrose (~email@example.com) has joined channel #epclive
In the introduction section subtitled "Poetics in
Advance of a Poetics" JR & PJ write:
[pierre] And Ken, you do have post WW2 "movements" both in the Thirs World & here (no question that the Beats & the San Francisco Renaiisance & the L-poets constitute such groupings
"A characteristic of modern art (& poetry) so defined
-- but this carries into the "postmodern" as well --
has been the questioning of art itself as a discrete &
bounded category. Some such radical questioning of art
& of its boundaries is what defines our sense of an
"avant-garde" & of some form of "deconstruction" as a
strategy for coping with the inherited (authoritative)
It seems to me that your anthology (contrary to most)
resists taxonomies and the building of boundaries.
Could you talk a little about your tactics in this
regard, and elaborate a bit on the implications of your
subtitle? ("Poetics in Advance of a Poetics")
[Sherwood](sorry, pj, didn't realize you were just catching yr breath.
[pierre] I'll catch my breath now -- jerry, you try this one!
[pierre] An anthology of the avanbt-garde is in some way a contradiction in terms -- unless it tries to do exactly that: resist taxonomies & the building of boundaries.
[JerryR] I think the "in adsvance of" was another gesture to indicate that we weren't laying down the law or the canon by doing the anthology. If there was to be a poetics in any definitive sense let the future take care of that, or not. Some such id ea
[Sherwood]I take your 'gallery' structure to be in the same spirit, the sort of necessary complement to the 'isms' sections.
[Sherwood]Yet of course, you're also interested to show the richness of poetries coming out of 'movements' (self and posthumously) defined as largely visual arts activities.
[pierre] Yes, indeed, & tyhe galleries have the further wonderful "objective chance" strucxture of being organised according to the accident of birthjdate -- which creates -- we think -- some lovely & surprising juxtapositions
[JerryR] Well most of the isms did in fact try to lay down the law. The appeal of Dada was that it was willing to pull the rug out from under itself, or at least Tzara & others made a point of that. In practice of course it turned into doctrinaire su rrealism o
[JerryR] doctrinaire surrealism or that Berlin form that described itself as German Bolshevism.
[JerryR] Am I right that we can only get in 4 lines at a time? (Technical question)
[Sherwood]The 'look' alone of pieces like "L'amiral cherche une maison a louer" in context of an anthology I think undercuts the building of 'ism' walls.
[Sherwood]And various of the 'doctrinaire' Marinetti pieces, which jump off the page.
[Sherwood]At those moments the book (I notice it's not titled anthology) best frustrates the homogenizing arc.
[pierre] I'm not sure about number of lines
[JerryR] But I do find myself getting cut off when I go beyond a certain amount of typing
[pierre] Just keep adding --
[JerryR] Yes about L'amiral but particularly when it comes into a space (THE anthology) from which it's long been excluded.
[pierre] Onew oif the things we did want to show was how some of the movements were mucvh more fluid than the historical backview would gibe them credit for
[JerryR] Part of the pleasure of the book is for the first time being able to bring works like L'Amiral and the Marinetti pieces & Wolfli & so forth & so on into the body of a purported University anthology, book of etc etc
[pierre] The absence of the word anthology is noteworthy, indeed
[Sherwood]my strategy is to return at the end of each line rather than letting it wrap *** lolpoet (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined channel #epclive *** lolpoet is now known as Loss
[pierre] hello loss
[JerryR] hello Loss
[Loss] greetings pierre
[Loss] greetings Jerry
[Sherwood]a 'purported university anthology'...that's great, can I quote you?
[Sherwood]LLoss, we were just talking abou thte look and feel of the 'purported' book, and the impact of bringing these works into 'view'.
[Loss] Howso 'purported
[JerryR] Yes. Quote away. But there was a real excitement -- wasn't there, Pierre -- in having captured that frame & then being able to use it towards the ends for which it should long ago have been used. But I had that feeling with anthologies from the start
[Loss] In that sense aren't anthologies that strive to 'frame' ...
[Loss] as opposed to those that 'define'
[pierre] Yes indeed -- to do the book we had always wanted to do in that context was very exciting -- Jerry had done it before!
[Sherwood]Well it's a question of whether one brings together 'more of the same' or a range of things which share the same bench uncomfortably.
[Loss] The real victory may also be the kind of distribution/press under which this has been issued?
[Sherwood]And in Millenium, the squeeze of the Cendrars 'prose' insists: one law for the lion and the ox is oppression.
[pierre] Just as "true dadas are against dada" (Tristan Tzara) so true anthologists are against...
[pierre] There may also be the fact that "the time has come" for a reorgnising of the work of the first half of the cnetury.
[Sherwood]One of the 'isms' which I was surprised not to see so 'grouped' was Harlem Renaisance.
[pierre] It there under the wider sense of NEGRITUDE ] P this reogranization does 'sound', a clear argument that should be heard.
[Loss] That is a problem -- covering a smaller movement with a particular 'voice'
[Loss] within what -- negritude being international, si? *** timmons (^email@example.com) has joined channel #epclive
[JerryR] Harlem Renaissance also got mapped in with Langston's work. But
[pierre] Don't feel it as a problem, Loss -- we have to do many such foreshortenings, to fit the world into 800 pages --
[JerryR] it was negritude as such that made the clearest tie-in between movments of that kind & the general experimental & form-changing senses of modernism
[Loss] Well that's true Pierre, and what Jerry says is also important ...
[pierre] Putting Langston Hughes next/with Cesaire & Co. made, I think, a very strong point
[JerryR] but putting Cesaire & co -- as they were -- with the most radical of the European "movements" also said something
[Loss] To extend Modernism into a much larger plane that it a
[Loss] has occupied
[Sherwood]I was just reading Hughes authobiographical writing on traveling in Spain during the Civil war, an oft neglected fact of his own internationalism.
[Sherwood]J, it said something that current 'multicultural' poetry may not want to hear, eh?
[pierre] Yes indeed -- we certainl;y hope to show how interconnected the movements & individual figures & their poetics were. The reactionary position has always been to isolate thje avant-garde as some cookie half-baked half-dozen wierdos somewhere al l by themselves. The excat opposite has nearly always been the case. *** cf2785 (~firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined channel #epclive
[JerryR] Yes about the multicultural, with the understanding that Millennium is in its own way multicultural with a vengeance *** cf2785 is now known as funk *** Signoff: timmons (Read error to timmons
[skyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu]: EOF from client)
[JerryR] Does that mean that Funk is now with us?
[Sherwood]Millennium's multi-cult is like an over-flowing vase, constantly exceeding itself...
[Loss] Yes, greetings funk!
[funk] yep...what an ordeal!
[funk] i thought i was here before, but...
[Loss] (There are would be members of this conversation all over the irc!)
[Sherwood]which is why I specially like the 'closing' with 'A book of Origins'/ethnopoetics, itself an openning outwards...
[pierre] the present is not only gat to the future, but clearly even more so gate to the past -- it invents/discovers the pasts it didn't know or was unmable to see
[JerryR] Yes, the Origins section was a quick way to open it totally
[Sherwood]Will there be a section of origins in volume 2 as well?
[pierre] Once you (de)multiply the time-lines in such a way, it become simpossible to construct linear "traditions"
[pierre] Not as such, but there will be some other "odd" sections...
[Loss] As to origins, did you feel any conflict with your earlier anthologies, Jerry?
[funk] bs #epclive hello are you out there? *** You have new email.
[pierre] funk, can you here us? we's here! *** Signoff: penrose (Ping timeout for penrose
[220.127.116.11]) *** penrose was ~email@example.com (Christopher Penrose) on channel *private* *** on irc via server washington.dc.us.undernet.org (Mon Dec 11 18:34:42 1995)
[Loss] Chris, are you typing '#epclive' with your msgs?
[funk] i think i can hear you . .. do you read me?
[pierre] ((some people get pinge dout for lurking -- which is a drag!)) *** Signoff: JerryR (Ping timeout for JerryR
[Loss] I do .... and I thinkg pierre does
[pierre] Jerry, come back!
[Loss] Ouch! there goes JerryR
[funk] ok. cool. there are some other folks on an epclive line elsewhere... ] talk about chance, absence and juxta position
[pierre] Chris, we read you
[Loss] I found epclive folks at three different places out there!
[Sherwood] chris, by the way, where 'else' are they
[pierre] well, it's a pretty wild space out there in eel-ektronik land
[Loss] what is happeing is that that the 'serv' command is screwy tonight
[Loss] (ken & I have done this 'serv' biz a lot and it's usually good)
[Loss] but tonight it's spinning you out to different servers ...
[funk] well, there is an #epclive chatline attached to the RPI server that we're hooked up to from suny-a
[Loss] without telling you. So you get there and they'll be a couple
[Loss] of epclive folks there
[funk] chaos never died
[pierre] Yeah, I haven't had any problem with it either -- except when I try to use fancy frontware such as homer
[Sherwood] the thing is, if you don't serve, you can 'make' your own channel of the same name anywhere
[funk] i did the exact same commands as i used last week, & ended up on a channel with jerry but not pierre!
[Sherwood] someone should get Jackson Mac Low on the phone! *** JerryR (~firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined channel #epclive
[pierre] Funk, I think that's what happens whernb you don;t switch servers -- happened to me the first night I just typed #epclive at the rpi server & was "given" such a channel
[funk] pierre, how long would it have taken you & J to produce the anthology w/out fax, e-mail, etc.
[Sherwood] And when will you produce the hypertext version?
[Loss] welcome back jerry!
[JerryR] thanks. I'll try to get back in
[funk] pierre but i *did* switch servers!
[pierre] well, it took as 5 to 6 years, the first few of which we lived 10 minutes walk away -- without the eel-media it would ahve taken us a couple years more, probably -- though we did also a lot of travel,ling back & forth. it takes the real live interaction to solve the problems
[JerryR] with the first volume we were living close to each other so no big need for electronic communications,
[funk] yes- would love to have audio & multimedia versions of the anthology.
[funk] anyone got 100 grand lying around, we could prolly do it...
[Loss] perhaprs interesting to put up some small version on the epc or elsewhere
[Loss] just to get the feel
[Loss] a large grassroots upswelling
[funk] feel the multiculturalism!
[JerryR] with the second volume I don't know if we would have had the persistence to continue without fax, e-mail, daily telephone etc
[pierre] We follow up most e-mail & fax with a live telephone conversation
[funk] to humanize it?
[JerryR] What we're doing now would ben interesting procedure to have on a daily basis
[pierre] at some point -- but my sense it that that should wait until we can easily do what the book can't do -- put up pictures, movie bits, sound files, etcetera
[Loss] But you also spend time physically in the same placw wroking onit?
[Sherwood] From yr joint experiences with UC and other presses, when are we likely to see the first anthology like this that can also stretch to fit sound? I mean, can they *conceive of ti*
[Loss] I don't think that could ever be seen as 'profitable' ken
[funk] a couple of summers ago, we talked about an accompanying cd (audio) for the anth., remember...
[Loss] and also compounded by the fact that most folks don't teach sound
[Loss] i just wonder if ucp would ever do such a thing
[Sherwood] well most folks don't/didn't teach the 'visual', now what're they gonna do?
[JerryR] Yes, tgime in the same plac e -- flying back & forth -- but even the flying is part of the contemporary circumstance
[pierre] Oh yes, we were together in Paruis 10 days ago & afterb reakfast worked a couple hours, & wednesday JR is arriving in Albany for a week's work...
[JerryR] I think there's some interest around ucp & other such places in the cd rom possibility
[pierre] Yes, funk, ideally we wld have liked to have the Delaunay/Cendrars as a color fold-out in the front of the first volume & a cd-rom in the back of the second --
[JerryR] but cd rom is easier talked about than done ... the production would probably be incredibly expensive etc
[Sherwood] The weird status
[*] of David Jones' "In Parenthesis"
[Sherwood] and Eliot's "Wasteland" an attempt to address this
[Sherwood] problem, an exploration of the anthology-as-map?
[JerryR] we almost got the fold-out if someone had come up with enuf bread to cover it
[Loss] I could see a medium-sized small press doing it
[pierre] That had to do with the Brit publisher demanding extortionary amounts of money for David Jones.
[pierre] Eliot is of course available elsewhere, everywhere, & for us it was mainly necessary to "map" him in as you say. Jones we would have liked to have in.
[funk] well, mosly you'd have to pay a programmer & permissions.
[Loss] It would be amazing to think of alternative production to match the framing
[funk] to make cd-rom is *cheap*
[Sherwood] It's interesting though, feels a lot like a hypertext when one of the links fails, like you know it is/should_be there.
[pierre] funk, we'll talk about that one with Jerry here this week
[JerryR] to make c d-rom is cheap but to search out & organize the materials (visual & audio etc.) is much more expensive. At least I think it would be, to do a decent job with it
[pierre] it's a micro-black hole ken, maybe food for thought, indeed it lets the material/capitalist mode of production in undisguised
[Loss] But I think as you say, the permissions ...
[funk] i know that pat phillips has talked with me about editing an int'l experimental poetry anth. on cd-rom, but we haven't gotten down to brass tacks yet. we'll see...
[Loss] One thing I'd like to ask is about the MLA opening for the
[Loss] anthology. Is this unusual? It seems to me to be a great
[Loss] opportunity that your terrific anthology is introduced this
[Loss] way. But do other anthologies get such an 'opening'?
[Loss] I feel like everything about this antho speaks of a new era...
[JerryR] About MLA it's really the CompLit people that have opened this for us, & that really surprises me. It gives me, for the moment a better feeling about all of that
[Loss] It must be some specific personalities then.
[Loss] I mean to be clear I feel the antho deserves it!
[funk] yes, it's an incredible collection, & hopefully will inspire more heterogeneous texts
[JerryR] Specific personalities ... Perloff, for one. But Fred Garber, who was always friendly to this kind of thing, was also a former president of the CLA
[Loss] it seems unusual from such a large stodgy org to get a reception!
[pierre] The ACLA is a hipper, more "internationalist" org -- with some avant-gardish people inn there, like Perloff
[funk] i've seen a couple of promising anthologies lately,
[Loss] Is it CLA? Comp Lit Assoc? Is that a sub0
[pierre] The reception is co-sponsored by the publisher -- remmeber there is a huge bookshop / stands at MLA, so the U publishers are hawking their wares.
[pierre] It's the ACLA -- American Comparative Literature Assoc., I believe
[Loss] But I've never thot of UCP as being into 'promtoion of an sort
[Sherwood] The need is clear, and all 'here' are sure glad it's being filled; but, what's the crass expectation of its use. Is it user-friendly enough to make it as a (quote) teaching anthology(unquote)?
[JerryR] Yes, Comp Lit Assn. I dont know the exact relation to MLA except the meetings occur at the same time & place
[Loss] In fact in terms of districtuion, thery're a tough one
[Loss] Perhaps this is a change of approach
[pierre] UC has been very good on promotion & distribnution, Loss, the antho is in all Borders & Barnes & Nobles right now...
[Loss] Actually, though, I must say, I've been to a few cities lately and the antho
[Loss] is in a lot of places
[Sherwood] Buffalo's B&N as well as the 'real' bookstore Talking Leaves
[Loss] It seems that's somewhat different for them Pierre *** Netsplit at 19:58:21 (Manhattan.KS.US.Undernet.Org Chicago.IL.US.Undernet.org) #EPCLIVE JerryR H ~email@example.com (Jerry Rothenberg) #EPCLIVE funk H ~firstname.lastname@example.org (FUNKHOUSER CHRISTOPH) #EPCLIVE Loss H email@example.com (Loss Glazier) #EPCLIVE sherwood H firstname.lastname@example.org (Kenneth W Sherwood) #EPCLIVE pierre H ~email@example.com (Pierre Joris)
[Loss] But then no one knows if other anthos have had a similar 'opening'
[pierre] We were also ,lucky to be picked by Publishers' Weekly as one of their books of the year
[JerryR] There havent been any reviews yet aside from Publishers Weekly & Library Journal. Is that right, Pierre?
[Loss] (what's a netsplit?)
[pierre] Right, Jerry -- though the word is that some will be forthcoming *** Netjoined at 19:59:50 (Manhattan.KS.US.Undernet.Org Chicago.IL.US.Undernet.org)
[Loss] I must admit I get a little confused sometimes. Is it advance copies then, *** Mode change "+o X" on channel #EPCLIVE by davis-r.ca.us.undernet.org
[Loss] in advance of reviews, that are sent to PW and LJ?
[pierre] Well, it'sd about eight o'clock now, & maybe time to sing (ghad we the technology) "happy birthday, Jerry'!
[Loss] Is everyone else getting the mode change etc?
[JerryR] Thank you PIerre & see you Wednesday
[funk] looking forward to yr visit, J
[Sherwood] To all who joined us tonight, especially Jerome
[Sherwood] Rothenberg (on his birthday) and Pierre Joris...
____________THANKS_FOR JOINING_EPCLIVE_______________ * * Event--Poems for the Millennium: a discussion with Jerome Rothenberg and Pierre Joris on their newly released book of Modern and Postmodern Poetry * * _________December_11_1995______8:00pm_EST___________
[pierre] Oh yes, there are all levels of review copies, advance, regular, late, etcetra
[Loss] H A P
[Loss] P Y
[Loss] B I R T H
[Loss] D A Y
[pierre] thanks jerry & see you wednesday, indeed!
[funk] thanks loss + ken *** Signoff: JerryR (Curiosity did not kill the cat.)
[Loss] my thanks to you both!
[funk] loss-- i got your ms
[pierre] Con gusto, amigo!
[Sherwood] thanks everyone, great to have you
[Sherwood] Pierre and Jerry
[funk] looks good. thanks-
[pierre] bye to all
*** Signoff: pierre (Leaving)
IRC Log ended *** Mon Dec 11 20:52