========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 15:10:04 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: AWOL: Overland Magazine X-To: keybird@creighton.edu, sondheim@panix.com, VSMITH@lincoln2.k12.ar.us, ECannon@aol.com, lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu, e-poetry@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu, LISTSERVER@banks.ntu.edu.au, LITERARY@BITNIC.CREN.NET ******************************************************************************** AUSTRALIAN WRITING ONLINE is a small press distribution service which we hope will help Australian magazines, journals and publishers to reach a much wider audience through the internet. As a first step we will be posting information and subscription details for a number of magazines and publishers to a number of discussion groups and lists. We hope to build up a large emailing list which includes as many libraries as possible. If you know of a list or discussion group which you think might be worthwhile posting to or, if you would like to receive future postings, please contact AWOL directly on M.Roberts@unsw.edu.au. Please note that M.Roberts@unsw.edu.au is a temporary address until we set up our own address sometime this year ******************************************************************************** OVERLAND MAGAZINE Overland, Australia's radical nationalist literary quarterly, continues to be edited by John McLaren and published with the assistance of the Victorian University of Technology (VUT). Overland is Australia's second oldest continually published literary magazine - Meanjin is the oldest, Southerly the first established, but not continuous. Overland is published quarterly, and from 1995 will appear in February, May, August and November, so avoiding the plethora of journals that appear at the end of each quarter. Its Summer 1995 issue includes Boc Burns on Peter Carey, John Ridland on an American discovering Australia, and the best fiction and poetry currently available--as well as an unparalleled helping of review of recent fiction, poetry. history and politics. The February issue will feature fiction noire, reviews on the failure of the revanchist right and tough left, and all the other social and political issues ignored by our reptile contemporaries. You can subscribe now for $28 (Aust) for four issues--academic articles are fully refereed to conform with the malignant policies of DEET and ARC--we continue to be unfashionably radical and nationalist. Address:E-Mail John=McLaren@ VUT.EDU.Au; or PO Box 14146, MMC, Melbourne 3000. cut here ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SUBSCRIPTION FORM Name: _____________________________________________________ Address: ____________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________ Please indicate the rate appropriate to your subscription (all dollars are Australian dollars) Individual __ $28 (AUS) within Australia __ $60 (AUS) USA (other prices on application) Please send this form, with your payment to: OVERLAND. PO Box 14146, MMC, Melbourne Vic 3000. Overland is assisted by the Australia Council, the Australian Government's arts advisory and support organisation, and the Victorian University of Technology. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 01:48:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: CALL FOR A DECISIVE BREAK WITH THE PAST (NURTURE THE APEX) Dear Ira--Okay, that would be cool if you moved here by me. What would you do for "a living" though? I wish I could help you find a job here. Maybe you could apply to the school here as a student. That's what I'm doing (thanks to the student loan sharks). I'm sorry to have been so negative about America or specifically Albany but when your post came through I had just been informed that Elizabeth's husband, Jeff Hansen, is not getting rehired at his job at the "boy's academy" here and the economic pressures that are severely affecting this town right now. Nonetheless,this is where i live. Anyway, if you're serious about this I could send you more info--perhaps off this list...Chris S. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 00:34:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Randy & the NEA X-cc: rsillima@vanstar.com Here's more stuff that I pulled off of the House of Representatives page on the WWW. Cunningham has been in Congress for 4 years. Here are the bills he has been the principle author of so far this congress. Except for what looks like a "local green" bill in there, the rest have a distinct reactionary flavor. Especially HR 220. Note his cosponsors. (Doolittle, who shows up more than once, is a rightwinger from the Sacramento area. Is anyone on this list from UC Davis?) If you have a congressperson who is listed on one of those bills, you might want to call his/her office and ask what they can do to influence Cunningham to get his committee (a subcommittee of the Economic and Educational Opportunities committee of the house) to report out a bill that authorizes the NEA. Remember--from this point of view, it's unimportant whether or not he supports its funding. In fact, if he wants to vote against any appropriation, that would not be a killer. Authorization, tho, might be. I will try to find out stuff on timing in the days ahead. -- Ron Representative Randy "Duke" Cunningham (R) California, 43rd District Office Information: Washington Office 227 Cannon (202) 225-5452 Service Start Date: 01-03-91 Congress(es): 102nd - 104th -------------------------------- 104 H.R. 216 Cunningham - Referred to House Subcomm CONGRESS: 104 BILL NO: H.R. 216 OFFICIAL TITLE: A bill to provide that certain new Federal programs shall terminate no later than 5 years after the date of enactment of the law that establishes the programs SPONSOR: Cunningham DATE INTRODUCED: 01-04-95 BRIEF TITLE: No Information Available COSPONSORS: 16 CURRENT COSPONSORS 01-20-95 Doolittle, Packard, Poshard, Emerson, Torkildsen, Pryce, Ney, Royce, Fox, Forbes, Saxton, Dornan. 01-25-95 Christensen. 01-26-95 Seastrand. 01-27-95 Jacobs, Weller. ---------------------------------------------------- 104 H.R. 217 Cunningham - Referred to House Subcomm CONGRESS: 104 BILL NO: H.R. 217 OFFICIAL TITLE: A bill to establish a Second National Blue Ribbon Commission to Eliminate Waste in Government SPONSOR: Cunningham DATE INTRODUCED: 01-04-95 BRIEF TITLE: No Information Available COSPONSORS: 6 CURRENT COSPONSORS 01-11-95 Doolittle, Jones. 01-13-95 Linder, Knollenberg. 01-18-95 Paxon. 01-23-95 Moorhead. -------- 104 H.R. 218 Cunningham - Referred to House Committee CONGRESS: 104 BILL NO: H.R. 218 OFFICIAL TITLE: A bill to amend title 18, United States Code, to exempt qualified current and former law enforcement officers from State laws prohibiting the carrying of concealed handguns SPONSOR: Cunningham DATE INTRODUCED: 01-04-95 BRIEF TITLE: No Information Available COSPONSORS: 43 CURRENT COSPONSORS As Introduced Bartlett, Barton, Brewster, Calvert, Condit, Crane, Doolittle, Gallegly, Holden, Hunter, Inglis, Knollenberg, Lewis (CA), Packard, Paxon, Portman, Schaefer, Solomon, Hall (TX). 01-09-95 Molinari. 01-11-95 Ney, Vucanovich, Coburn, Frost. 01-13-95 Linder. 01-17-95 Fields (TX). 01-18-95 Baker (CA). 01-19-95 Hancock, Lightfoot. 01-20-95 Allard, Chrysler. 01-23-95 LaTourette. 01-24-95 Tejeda, Metcalf, Heineman, Thurman, Emerson. 01-25-95 Bilbray, McKeon. 01-26-95 Shuster, Young (AK), Seastrand. 01-27-95 English. ------------------------- CONGRESS: 104 BILL NO: H.R. 219 OFFICIAL TITLE: A bill to require a temporary moratorium on leasing, exploration, and development on lands of the Outer Continental Shelf of the State of California, and for other purposes SPONSOR: Cunningham DATE INTRODUCED: 01-04-95 BRIEF TITLE: No Information Available COSPONSORS: 2 CURRENT COSPONSORS 01-17-95 Bilbray. 01-30-95 McKeon. ------------- 104 H.R. 220 Cunningham - Referred to House Subcomm CONGRESS: 104 BILL NO: H.R. 220 OFFICIAL TITLE: A bill to amend title IV of the Social Security Act to deny aid to families with dependent children to certain individuals for any week in which the individuals work or attend courses at an educational institution for fewer than 30 hours SPONSOR: Cunningham DATE INTRODUCED: 01-04-95 BRIEF TITLE: Responsible Welfare Act of 1995 COSPONSORS: No Information Available ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 00:31:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Spencer Selby Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary In-Reply-To: <199502010133.RAA08020@slip-1.slip.net> Dear Tom, My statements about theory/practice were not just replies to you. They had a context too, which it seems you're not entirely attending. But I don't want to fight about it. I'm sorry if it seemed I was not appreciating all the wisdom and clarity of your thought. I'm sorry if my words were to you "no reaction at all." In the future I'll try to do better, because it's clear that you're one of the most important voices on here, and your judgments are crucial. Yrs, Spencer Selby P.S. Whatever the context, I don't believe "this discourse proceeds at the level of the poetry." On Tue, 31 Jan 1995, Tom Mandel wrote: > words must be read in context. read my words in > context, not as an abstract opposition of poetry > and theory but as a contextualized one. sure, > theory (or criticism, or history, whatever) is > also an art activity, an art form, a form of > writing, what have you. And yet.... are we > to succumb to the idea that there is no > difference between Moses Und Aaron and > Harmonielehre? I think my point was clear > enough. What use to react to it in a way that > is no reaction at all? > > tom Mandel > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 12:59:03 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: past breaking point existunintentionally - I left the be word out. But I wouldn't suggest that the dues are what have to be paid for. cris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 13:59:43 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "I.LIGHTMAN" Subject: Re: Re- CALL FOR A DECISIVE Bill, Thanks for your encouragement of my Jung elaboration. I'm not sure that this list is the place for opening out all the aphorisms/points I made; I just hoped it might circulate the manifesto to generate some connection with the similar minded. However, I always answer specific questions. Stockhausen is a European composer of similar age and period to Cage; Stockhausen uses some process and chance, but he has also periodically stopped to ask what he has learned from his chance works, and has always also composed very carefully chosen work. My point in my manifesto was simply to allege that a lot of poets want to call themselves *musical* because they get Cage, or free jazz, as a theoretical gesture, but not as a physical experience of sound. That poets allied to Zukofsky think he and therefore they are musical when Zukofsky may namecheck Bach, but is a million miles further away from Bach than, for example, Pound, in understanding how to balance and combine cadences and sound, or how to do counterpoint. To take one example, Pound's use of monosyllables in the early Cantos is, it seems to me, a technical feat as difficult as musical composition; by his careful sense of context, dialect and etymology he places words in his poetry so that they interrogate and are interrogated by other words and lines *both rhythmically (picking up certain assonances) and semantically (looking at what the word might mean and has meant)*; this creates a kind of counterpoint, or slowing of time, as the mind remembers previous words and lines and mentally plays them in a kind of double-exposure; just as, when listening to Bach, one can hear phrases recur but in reverse or a different octave, and one thus hears phrases inside each other. If you then look at how Zukofsky uses monosyllables in the opening sections of "A", you find not remotely the same complexity (it's as if he's trying to copy the surface of Pound without understanding the structure). Cage wanted to use randomness in order to defy connections with the past, to be new in that way. Stockhausen manages a similar break but also stands equal with past composers, creating equivalent *complexity* by balancing not so much phrases but cadences, working not in time and rhythm but physical space. I can't describe it better than that; I juts just get a huge sense of space, with a sound coming from above, then left, then throughout the whole space. Cage wanted to get his audience to feel space, eg 4'33", but Stockhausen can actually sculpt it. See how long it might take to spell everything out? Best Ira ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 09:45:13 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: Re- CALL FOR A DECISIVE Stockhausen (Karlheinz) is a german composer, founder of the "cologne" school ov electronic music--based in the studios of radio cologne, very generally using electronic sound sources (oscillators etc.) as opposed to manipulating found sound a'la the french muisque concrete school. altho he & cage did at some points clash over theory, i believe they "patched things up" (no pun inteneded, ov course) later, and the german/ french opposition now seems more genuine, at least to me. dunno, maybe some folks think of cage & his zen influence as warm & fuzzy, and diametric to a perception of stockhausen's cold hard "classicism"--readings of both that _i_ find misleading... lbd ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 14:09:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Spencer Selby Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary In-Reply-To: <199502011233.EAA20978@slip-1.slip.net> Dear Stephen, Nice to hear from you. I will send you out a hard copy of the latest list today. Anyone else who wants same, just let me know, along with yr mailing address. Spencer Selby ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 17:58:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: apex of the m... In-Reply-To: <199502010621.AA04449@panix.com> The theories and practices of the poets of whom you speak evolved in a series of books from the early 1970s through the current decade's books by several of the poets. Anthologies such as *Inthe American Tree* edited by Ron Silliman and *From the Other Side of the Century* edited by Douglas Messerli will give you good samplings of some but not all of the poets involved. *The Language Book* edited by Bernstein and Andrews (Southern Illiois University Press), *The New Sentence* by Ron Silliman (Roof Books), *A Poetics* by Charles Bernstein, *The Boundary of Blur* by Nick Piombino (Roof Books), portions of my own *Our Nuclear Heritage* (Sun & Moon), and a raft of others by Barrett Watten, Alan Davies, and forthcoming by still others such as Hank Lazer will articulate the variety of concerns that were addressed by these poets over the years. Someone might want to cite the secondary texts which have the purpose of "summarizing" the works, but I find these less useful since they translate the mechanisms by which the poets meant and thereby are only descriptive. Bernstein has a good list of these texts about these poets. But the point that must be made regarding your query is that the only simplified material that can be written would be similar to the promotional literature which was generated to alert librarians and readers to the presence of tendency in writing. Such promotional literature can't be used to articulate anything other than the marketing practices of publishers such as Messerli, Ganick, Bernstein & Andrews, and myself. So there probably is no short answer and most ofthe poets who participated in these writings and publications would prefer that they be allowed to represent themselves when you read them each, not as a lump, since the poets of whom we speak are as diverse as all the other tendencies combined and sought another mode of presentation. So rather than a summary, I, for one, would ask you to take a look at some of the work. On Tue, 31 Jan 1995, Jeffrey Timmons wrote: > A naive question from the unlearned: > > Would someone please articulate in what ever fashion possible some > general practices/theories of L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E poetry? What a hassle to > type that. I won't hold anyone responsible for the reductive nature of > categorizing what is (obviously) a highly diverse assortment of writers > and writing. Ok? > > Jeffrey Timmons > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 23:26:51 JST Reply-To: nada@twics.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: nada@TWICS.COM Subject: Spencer's gauntlet, etc. 1) Between K and N: Are people really distressed that the generations are going at it? Isn't that the order of things? eg. moose, cuckoos. . . Analysis is beautiful though, even when it's tortured. Especially when it's tortured. It makes me feel wily. A wily woman (CH) said to me once: Write what you want to write. And some clever men (CB and AD) wrote: Write what gives you pleasure. (that could be grand social responsibility, philosophy, sparrows, things to eat or just friction) 2) Picking up Spencer's gauntlet: Teaching in Japan I have had to learn all kinds of tricks for getting silent people to talk, to break their internal barrier against speaking even if they feel they have nothing to say or are afraid of making a mistake. Techniques include sentence completion, anonymous bulletin boards, teaching gambits for evoking speech to the interlocutors of a silent person, giving participation points, and listening intently to a usually quiet one who gets up the nerve to speak. I wonder if these techniques could be adapted to a poetry commmunity, and by extension to any democracy. FILL that air. By the way it was very hard for me to post this. Ashamed that my teeth might be part of my skeleton I was obliged to first blacken them then cover them with my hand. What is the level of the poetry, Spencer? Who stratifies all this language? I'm thinking of applying to Buffalo. I'm in e-mail contact with Ben F., but would like to hear from others involved in that community about what it's like. Yoroshiku onegai shimasu. reply to: Nada@twics.com concrete address: Nada Gordon 202 Ikeda-so 2-1-5 Akatsutsumi Setagaya-ku Tokyo 156 JAPAN ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 09:31:53 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: Re- CALL FOR A DECISIVE sez ira, expanding on his "stockhausen not cage" slogan: >See how long it might take to spell everything out? _exactly_. the short version is so easily misunderstood as to be useless fr anything but agitation. the expanded version gives me a point of entry, might be part of a dialogue (& not just a harangue). and the problem, fr me, w/ much of what passes here, on these screens, is the time wasted on agitation. by which i refer back to the earlier M thread, where the stance of the intro completely obscures... response to the slogans seems pointless (haven't you ever been called names before?), but, i believe, there is some substance behind their practice (&/or praps related--who mentioned CHAIN o*blek 12 etc?), which remains unaddressed and still worth addressing... & still, ira, i don't think you've got c & s right... lbd ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 08:50:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: BLUOMA Organization: Vanstar Corporation Subject: Re: Re- reified names vs. bo Reply to: RE>Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary I'd like one please. Bill Luoma 526 e5th st NY, NY 10009 -------------------------------------- Date: 2/2/95 8:27 AM To: BLUOMA From: UB Poetics discussion group Dear Stephen, Nice to hear from you. I will send you out a hard copy of the latest list today. Anyone else who wants same, just let me know, along with yr mailing address. Spencer Selby ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 10:55:44 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: eric pape Subject: Re: Re- reified names vs. bo In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 2 Feb 1995 08:50:32 -0800 from Spencer: Please send me a new list as well. I had the one you earlier distributed, and found it very helpful, but accidentally erased it. enpape@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu Thanks muchly, Eric. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 12:51:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: apex of the m... X-To: James Sherry In-Reply-To: <01HMJJ557DK28WWMXW@asu.edu> I want to thank all those that replied to my queries about L poetry and others who took the time to expand their replies to "account" (or at least ... say more about their positions. I liked it. I will be busy trying to immerse myself in some of this material and, as a consequence I'm sure, asking y'all questions about it. Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 17:03:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Press List * Avenue B * (via Stephen Ratcliffe) ___A V E N U E___B___ _____________________________________________________________________________ New Titles (1995) _____________________________________________________________________________ REGISTERS/ (PEOPLE IN ALL) by Clark Coolidge 88 pages ISBN 0-939691-10-8 $9.95 Written between May '89 and August '92, these fifty sections of 3-line stanza/chords continue Coolidge's fast-forward drive to explore how sheets of sound can be made to echo thought itself: ." . . . Off where nerves rattle and glance interminable, the sphere of the bygone syllable. Lit as if sound, a cascade to a bell." (OUTSIDE) by Todd Baron 88 pages ISBN 0-939691-11-6 $9.95 "Todd Baron's poems in (OUTSIDE) have a clarity that is not being either speech or thought while seeming the reverberation of 'the public' from inside 'someone,' "not lines or rhythms or even/ anything from the outside but on paper from the voice above the water-level/ shouting something beneath." The sense of the poems' shape crosses a spatial line or level they make that is public/interior." Leslie Scalapino _____________________________________________________________________________ Recent Titles _____________________________________________________________________________ Amblyopia by Jena Osman 48 pages ISBN 0-939691-09-4 $8.00 "Amblyopia is an invitation to a new architecture, where spaces are construed with artifacts of the mindQfavorite haunts, obscure discoveries, longings, persons and objectsQas well as vital responses to the habitat it creates. Each gesture leaves a trace "representing a kind of revolution or paragraph on a relatively fragile topic." The writing is precise and lush. That we get to follow Jena Osman into her theatre of invention is an exhilirating pleasure of the first order." Ann Lauterbach Second Law by Elizabeth Willis 64 pages ISBN 0-939691-08- $8.95 "Elizabeth Willis's work is a wonder: an open tangle of thought, a mark in the darkness, a sudden projection: 'striving between light/ and the force of a body/ that is light.' These poems draw amazingly delicate boundaries among the soul's constellations of ambiguities." Beverly Dahlen Linen Minus by Susan Gevirtz 64 pages ISBN 0-939691-07-8 $8.00 "'Who wants? / Who walks? Who wants to walk?' When is repetition a kind of answer? 'The word ignites.' Read the work ignites. Repetition forms the answer, but what kind of answer? What kind of repetition? Gevirtz's transformations are unexpected progressions. Deliberate progressions roll internal rhyme into chords of the marvelous, into rhythmic visibility, flaunting precognition, pluralizing it. Progressions enact sensuous form, defer seams, reach unexpected grammatical conclusions. Restating progressions ritualize. Action thrills meaning among this cast of secret agents. 'I defy you.'" Norma Cole _____________________________________________________________________________ Also Available _____________________________________________________________________________ News on Skis poems by Peter Ganick 64 pages ISBN 0-939691-07-8 $8.00 Talking in Tranquility: Interviews with Ted Berrigan edited by Stephen Ratcliffe and Leslie Scalapino (published with O Books) 208 pages ISBN 0-939691-05-1 $10.50 Post Hoc poems by Michael Davidson 96 pages ISBN 0-939691-04-3 $8.00 Words nd Ends from Ez poems by Jackson Mac Low 96 pages ISBN 0-939691-03-5 $7.50 Among the Blacks fiction/translation/memoir by Raymond Roussel & Ron Padgett 64 pages ISBN 0-939691-02-7 $7.50 Japan poems by Maxine Chernoff 48 pages ISBN 0-939691-01-9 $6.00 Distance poems by Stephen Ratcliffe 112 pages ISBN 0-939691-00-0 $6.00 _____________________________________________________________________________ Please include a check for retail total plus $1.50 for postage and handling for the first title, $.50 for each additional title. Avenue B P.O. Box 542 Bolinas, CA 94924 _____________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 15:14:48 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Spencer Selby Subject: Re: Spencer's gauntlet, etc. X-To: nada@twics.com In-Reply-To: <199502021540.HAA13272@slip-1.slip.net> Dear Nada, Hello, I'm very glad you jumped in. I hope my statements have not been taken as being in any way against anyone's wish or need to speak out on anything. This forum seems very open (maybe even "wide open"), which is one of the best things about it. I might remind you though, that what is pleasurable for the speaker may not be for part or all of the listeners. As for what the level of poetry is, I'm not going to try that one. Poetry/art has its own level, and whatever it is or may be, it is not the same as theory or criticism or writers' discourses or internet exchanges. This view may strike some as extreme, simplistic or old-fashioned, but I think it's dangerous when artists or critics start saying (or building contexts in which) their discourse is on the same level as the art. Spencer Selby ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 20:29:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: Still Espousing Many books have been destroyed, carelessly or by design. Lost, burnt, forgotten, volumes drop out of existence, along with--more easily disposed of--proofs never pulled, unpublished manuscripts, notes for books, plans and proposals for things to be written, collected, put into books. The number of projects unaccomplished in history must be enormous. And much larger, almost infinite, the realm of projects unattempted, never started, what no one ever thought to do. (Keith Waldrop, *Potential Random*). on the other hand I am not going to espouse any short stories in which lawn mowers clack. (James Schuyler, "Freely Espousing") With apologies for the delay, here are some field reports from *Freely Espousing* events last weekend. After taking a few days to recuperate (and to change from our archaic e-mail software to Eudora), Jennifer and I want to re-issue our invitation to work with anyone who has ideas on how to sustain momentum, broaden the support-base, and provide an alternative voice (where stategic) to the rampant "bottom-line" thinking currently pervading both sides of the national debate on the Arts. The disastrous equation of corporate economic interests with the national interest is not our only option here! *San Francisco* On Friday evening, January 27, Kevin Magee and Myung Mi Kim had about three dozen writers to their home to discuss two anthologies, *writing away here* and *The New Coast.* The site is significant: Small Press Traffic, which might have been in other times a 'natural' place to stage an event such as *Freely Espousing,* was losing its lease effective Jan 31. Some of the writers gathered at Myung and Kevin's had composed "documentary gestures" (meant to link the NEA issue to the broader social war) earlier in the week: these were faxed to Providence and Buffalo the following morning. Kevin reports that the NEA was "there as a pressure" throughout an evening devoted to opening a dialogue between otherwise segregated "traditions" in American poetry. =46ollow-up: An audio-tape was made of the evening's discussion. Kevin and Myung have written a brief report of their event for the forthcoming *Poetry Flash,* where it will appear in the context (we presume) of a piece Jennifer and I are preparing on *Freely Espousing* more generally. * Providence * Organized by Jennifer Moxley and Steve Evans with support from C.D. Wright and the Ad-Hoc Council of Literary Presses. Salomon Hall 101, Brown University 3-7pm Estimated attendance: 175-200 people throughout the day =46ormat: Marathon reading of NEA-supported literature & Featured Speakers Speakers: Ray Rickman (Host of Bestsellers on Channel 36/PBS and Former RI State Representative), Representative Jack Reed (D-RI), Michael Harper (Poet, Professor of Creative Writing at Brown, Former RI Poet Laureate), Tereann Greenwood (President of RI Arts Advocates and Director of RI Philharmonic), Roger Mandle (President of RISD), Liam Rector (PEN-Boston), Richard Cumming (Composer in Residence at Trinity Rep since 1966), Randy Rosenbaum (Director of RISCA), Rudy Cheeks (local journalist and First Amendment advocate), Doreen Bolger (Director of RISD Museum), C.D. Wright (RI Poet Laureate, Professor of Creative Writing at Brown). Press Coverage: "Freely Espousing lets you speak up for the arts," by Jim Seavor, Providence Journal-Bulletin, 27 Jan 95: D1. "Writers gather in Providence to fight cuts in Endowment," by John Castellucci in Providence Sunday Journal, 29 Jan 95: B-3. "Artists and Politicians Challenge Budget Cuts," by Alyssa Litoff, Brown Daily Herald, 30 Jan 95: 1+ "Gaurding Access to Art," Providence Phoenix, 3 Feb 1995: 3. Comments: The event was a qualified success--it generated important publicity, mobilized key defender's of the arts, and lead to local alliances that have developed throughout the week following the event. The video-tape Lee Ann Brown made will come in handy in the next weeks and months. We're currently slated to participate in a forum of the broad implications of the *Contract on America* for Rhode Island (16 Feb). * New York City * Organized by Jeff Hull with support from Brenda Coltas Parish Hall, St. Mark's Poetry Project 3-6pm Estimated attendance:50 =46ormat: Letter-writing and brief program of speakers. Event followed a reading by Kate Rushin at the Ear Inn. Jeff estimates that 70 longhand letters and 150 postcards were generated at the event itself. Speakers: Anne Burt of the Literary Network, Elizabeth Murray, others. Attended: Bruce Andrews, Ron Padgett, Eliot Katz, Alfred Corn. =46ollow-up: Discussion of future events focused on moving beyond the strictly literary set. More as it develops. *Buffalo* (what follows is taken from an e-mail Jena Osman sent us earlier today) The Buffalo version of the "Freely Espousing" event was re-dubbed "SAVE THE artWORLD." This event was not focused so much on the writing community'= s relation to the NEA, as it was on the many arts programs in the city which depend on federal/public funding; music, theater, visual arts, arts educatio= n programs, etc. The event was organized by myself (Jena Osman), with help fr= om Anjanette Brush (director of Big Orbit Gallery), sponsored by the National Association of Artists' Organizations, and took place in the newly built cin= ema in the Hallwalls Center for Contemporary Arts. Outside the cinema, in the m= ain gallery, were computers and printers set up for letter writing, tables of photocopied articles and info. about the NEA, books by NEA authors for sale from Talking Leaves Bookstore, food, talk, and the current Hallwalls member'= s show up on the walls. The day consisted of a mixture of speeches and artistic presentation= s. Vincent O'Neill of the Irish Classical Theatre Company gave a dramatic readi= ng of a section of his one-man show on the work of James Joyce, "Joyicity." Eighth graders from public school 45 read poems and stories that they had written with local writers from Just Buffalo Literary Center's Writers-in-Education program. Manny Fried, a local playwright and labor activist, read from his play "The Dodo Bird." Film-maker Tony Conrad showed two films side by side--one purportedly made before he received an NEA grant= , one made after he received an NEA grant. Susan Howe read poems by Wilfred Owen. Raymond Federman read an excerpt from a novel which he had written wi= th the help of NEA support. Random Axe, a band consisting of cello, banjo and guitar, played a short set, and the 12/8 Path Band played some socially activating tunes as well. Other participants included Ed Cardoni of Hallwal= ls, Louise Caldi of the Greater Buffalo Opera Company, Arlette Rosen of Pick of = the Crop Dance Company, Deborah Ott of the Just Buffalo Literary Center, Univers= ity at Buffalo professor Myles Slatin with a message from State Assemblyman Sam Hoyt, media makers Brian Springer and Jody Lafond, Buffalo State College Art Conservation student, Sarah Stauterman, composer David Felder, Buffalo writer-in-residence, A.M. Alcott and I'm sure there are others I'm forgettin= g to mention. It's been estimated that over 200 people spent some time at the even= t, and all three TV stations showed up, two of them covering the story on the 6-o-clock news. Many letters were written, and many LitNet action cards signed. A primary target of the letter-writing campaign was Representative Jack Quinn of District 30, a Republican who is perceived as a potential swin= g vote in favor of the NEA. I believe the event was fairly successful at informing the community how NEA cuts will directly impact accessibility to t= he arts in Buffalo. However, I think everyone realized that this event marked only the beginning, and hopefully those who attended are already thinking of what needs to be done next. *Washington* Organized by Joe Ross and Mark Wallace Willow Street Gallery, 1-5pm Estimated attendance: 40 (on a snowy day) =46ormat: Open Reading with brief program of speakers. Speakers included Alexander Ooms and Cliff Becker (both from the NEA). Attended: Tina Darragh, Peter Inman, Tom Mandel, Joan Retallack, Beth Joselow, Rod Smith and others. =46ollow-up: Joe writes "To sum it up: positive, good feeling of purpose, left us ready to do more." * San Diego * Organized by Craig Foltz and Cole Heinowitz The Wicki Up, 1-6 pm Estimated Attendance: 50-75 people =46ormat: Marathon Reading with Featured Speakers. Performance/Symposium: On the History, Present, and Future of the NEA. Speakers/Readers: Quincy Troupe, Michael Davidson, Miguel Algar=EDn (poet, founder of Nuyorican Cafe), Pasquale Verdicchio, Eloise Deleon (Performing Arts Director at the Centro Cultural de la Raza), Deedee Haleck (Paper Tiger Video and TV), Rae Armantrout, Fanny Howe, Mel Freilicher (writer and former co-chair of Sushi Performance Gallery), Jerome Rothenberg, Harold Jaffe, Maggie Jaffe, Ralph Lewin (California Council for the Humanities), Rand Steiger (Director of the Ph.D. in Music at UCSD, former director of LA Philharmonic). Press: When we spoke to Cole on Sunday, coverage in the next day's SD Union seemed likely (can anyone vouch for that?). =46ollow-up: About 10-12 people stayed after and forged a short agenda for the coming week. Discussion focused on broadening network to include SD Symphony, Escondido Arts Center (in Rep. Randy "Duke" Cunningham's district),etc. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 20:00:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: BLUOMA Organization: Vanstar Corporation Subject: Re: Re- Re- CALL FOR A DECIS Reply to: RE>Re: Re- CALL FOR A DECISIVE >>and the problem, fr me, w/ much of >>what passes here, on these screens, is the time wasted on >>agitation. There might be some agitation, but it seems healthy. Poets on the whole tend to be rather annoying. Another tack, however, might be to discuss things in the world that are influencing the art, obsessions. I enjoyed eric pape's spirit story more than recent theoretical calls to the M. Lately, I've been staring at high tension towers to get "inspiration." I've even taken to rendering them in photoshop. I can't articulate why I'm obsessed with power lines, but it/they continue to drive the work. Perhaps this tack is too individualistic to have meaning to a large group. But I am more interested in learning new methods of doing good work-- how to get new obsessions--than in discussing the correct way to write. I'd be curious to know what motivates others. Bill Luoma bluoma@vanstar.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 21:25:29 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary In-Reply-To: <199501290035.QAA17350@whistler.sfu.ca> from "Chris Stroffolino" at Jan 28, 95 07:31:55 pm Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah engagement blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 22:32:26 JST Reply-To: nada@twics.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: nada@TWICS.COM Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary according to Lee Ann Brown, blah blah is what Bernadette Mayer is having to substitute for most nouns now strange that aphasia should strike such a linguistic wonder beethoven syndrome ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 12:31:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Perelman Subject: freely espousing Here's a press release about the event that Susan Stewart, Gil Ott, and I have organized here in Philly for tomorrow. I'll also include an Op-Ed piece I just wrote for the P. Inquirer, which will run Sun. or Mon. Now if only it doesn't snow a half a foot like they're predicting. Bob Perelman Press Release FORUM TO MAINTAIN PUBLIC SUPPORT FOR THE ARTS & HUMANITIES to be held at The Great Hall, University of the Arts Saturday, February 4, 3-5 p.m. We are planning a public forum to express our support for the NEA, NEH, IMS, and CPB. It will involve brief public presentations by members of arts groups from throughout the city: dance, music, theater, visual arts, literary magazines and reading series, humanities institutions, and others will be represented. A postcard campaign of support and the creation of a petition are also on the agenda. Anyone with a concern for the future of cultural funding is invited to come and contribute to our efforts to alert the public to the current threat to the arts and humanities. Delegates from the Mayor's Office and from congressional and senate offices have all committed themselves to participating. If you need further information, please call Bob Perelman (898- 7055, 242-0434), Susan Stewart (848-3280) or Gil Ott (925-8094). Groups participating (incomplete list): The Mayor's Office Philadelphia Free Library Fabric Workshop Philadelphia Folklore Project Moore Gallery ICA Network for New Music Tyler Gallery Boulevard Magazine Painted Bride Singing Horse Press Settlement Music School Chorus America Print Club YMHA Poetry Center Penn. Council of the Arts WHYY University of the Arts Center for the Study of Black Literature and Culture, U Penn Historical Society ---- GOVERNMENT BY IRRITATION Government by irritation: it's one of the dominant political modes of our day. Taking their cue from talk show hosts, politicians try to topple their opponents by unleashing discontent. These days the NEA serves as a handy source of annoyance if not outrage: a few well-publicized examples of troublesome art have, over the last few years, been able to furnish a great supply of instant political energy. It's not easy to argue against such energy. The value of art is not always instantly apparent--and at the same the difficulties art brings with it are much more likely to be perceived at a glance. The latest remarks by senators that the NEA be abolished unless it supports "family values" show how true this is. Rather than arguing for art that is familiar, obedient and at best ornamental, I think case that art is valuable to the community precisely because it is not perfectly predictable or obedient. That will not mean that unruly art is automatically wonderful. Art is one of the testing grounds between individuals and the community. The point is that it's an opportunity for judgment: members of the community will need to make up their minds. That's one of the basic values of art: it can't be approached dogmatically. If it's considered in terms of the federal budget as a whole, the NEA is hardly a big deal. The federal budget is around a trillion and a half dollars a year; the NEA budget is $167 million. If my math holds, that means that the NEA takes up about one ten thousandth of the federal budget. That's less than the military spends on marching bands, less than the city of Berlin spends on public art. To eliminate the NEA would save each American 65 cents a year. Here in Philadelphia, dance, poetry, the visual arts, theater would all suffer; the gamut of organizations affected would range from the Institute for Contemporary Art to the Please Touch Museum, from the Philadelphia Orchestra to the Settlement Music School. The bigger, more established concerns would take a hit; some of the smaller organizations might have to close. Those who are out of sympathy with the arts might think that's fine: that if a theater company needs a handout to survive there's something wrong with it. But to consider the arts in such a framework is an unfair oversimplification. For one thing, business itself is not treated in such a sink- or-swim way: government subsidies are an integral part of many industries, from farming to sports franchises. One of the better reasons for such subsidies is that they shield enterprises from momentary reverses. If farmers couldn't survive a single bad season, it would ultimately make for a weak social fabric. With the arts, the time frame is often more stretched out. It can easily take decades for general taste to approve of developments in art. The last hundred years are full of examples. In France painters such as Monet and Matisse were ridiculed by the majority of their contemporaries; there was a riot at the premier of Stravinski's "Rites of Spring." Of course, paintings by Monet and Matisse are now among the most valuable objects on the planet; and thirty years after it had driven listeners into a frenzy of disgust, Stravinski's music was used by Disney as the soundtrack to the dinosaur section of "Fantasia." These are examples of successes. But it's not always the case that today's innovative art becomes tomorrow's classic. A 1920's symphony by George Antheil that used airplane engines has not yet become a cultural treasure (nor is it likely to). That's important. It misses the point to say "Fine, innovate, be creative. But only if you turn out to be Monet. No duds or wild excesses, please." But why should the government have to underwrite art? Didn't Monet work on his own? There are a couple of answers to this. For one thing, a significant part of NEA money goes to community groups, often helping get art to groups and places it doesn't normally reach: smaller towns, rural areas, schools that don't have the resources for art programs. And for the government to cut all arts funding would mean that it recognizes no values other than the marketplace. Under the reign of purely economic motives, there is no way anyone would want to produce something unless it could be sold immediately. Imagine a society in which every cultural product had to turn a profit instantly. If you want to get a sense of how claustrophobic this can be, consider how dominated commercial television by spinoffs and imitations. Given how informative, exciting, and revealing the arts can be, what an important antidote they are to instant opinion polls, and how important they already are to various different parts of the community, I think they're worth 65 cents a year. The money is not wasted: people in the arts are appreciative of the little support they get and work hard whether or not they get it. By their very nature, the arts speak to the individual's judgment at the same time as they offer possibilities for building communities: they're perfect training for the independence and possible sense of connection that we need to live in a democracy. Maybe 65 cents is a bit low. Why not make it $1.30? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 20:39:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rae Armantrout Subject: Re: Still Espousing Dear Steve, The newspaper here (The Union) did do a nice article on the Espousing event. Rae A. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 23:00:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: boundless, usw. What, Jeffrey Timmons asks, constitutes a reaction to my view? Well, let me start by saying that I think I wrote in a bit too snippish way in my own response to you, Jeffrey. At the heart of what I said in the post to which you were responding was this: "a discourse in re: poetry that is interesting to poetry is one that adds space for poetry to be made. Adds space." I want to hear someone discuss poetry with an emphasis on how work does its job in relation to the world it inhabits. The place of theory (even theory of poetry) with respect to poetry, to writing, is not that the theory resolves the work, as if you turn to the theory to help understand the work. Rather, theory, theoretical concerns or convictions operate as what Aristotle would have called "efficient causes"; they set a work, perhaps even a body of work, into motion, they get it going. You can't turn back to the theory, however, to understand the work itself - tho of course you can seek indications or intentions anywhere you find data to support them - and above all theory does not operate to justify the work. An acquaintance with the manifestos or even the ideas of surrealism is not necessary to understand Breton's _Nadja_. Might it not be helpful? It might be, to one or another reader; but, I could as easily imagine a reader to whom it would not provide entry to the work, even a reader whose response to the work would be dulled or diminished, dumbed out, by an attention to surrealistic theory (even more so to interpretations thereof). What then is a "discourse in re: poetry... that adds space for poetry to be made"? Anything that asks, or attempts to answer, that question is "a response to my view." Yours would be different from mine, and different from Charles Bernstein's. I recommend, because I did in the original post but without naming it, Mandelstam's "Conversation About Dante" as an example of what is in response to my view (i.e. I am in response to it - since, again as I had it in my original post, "a connection with the past [being] no different from a connection with the future.") Tom Mandel ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 23:10:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: Spirits, etc. Re: ERic Pape's "...spirituality cannot be faked, only shared," I'm having trouble laying hands on the Fernando Pessoa poem which begins (something like) "The poet is a faker...." Does anybody know this poem? It's only a handful of lines long, and if one of you cd quote it to the list, I'd be grateful. If not, I"ll find it sometime in the next week or so and pass it along when I do. tom mandel ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 23:24:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary Gosh spencer, I was replying to Jeffrey Timmons! No wonder you thought I'd missed the context of your reply to me, as I'd missed the reply altogether. tom ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 00:40:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: Re: freely espousing Dear Bob, Just a quick note to wish you luck with Saturday's event. Jen and I were happy to learn of it and we read you op-ed piece with interest. Please let us know how it comes off (and I'll have my dad, who lives in S.Jersey, look for coverage on the local news). We're faxing a 4-6 pp. piece on Freely Espousing to Poetry Flash late Sunday night, so if you have any information about your event that you'd like us to include, get in touch with us & we'll try to work it in. (This piece is pretty basis: After a rousing few words we'll be providing accounts of what happened in various places, stressing how such actions are relatively easy to organize, etc.). Again, we wish the best to yourself, Susan Stewart, and Gil Ott. May the skies cooperate! Yours, Steve Evans p.s. Have you seen the Douglas Davis article on NEA/NEH in the current *Art in America* ("Multicultural Wars," Feb 1995: 35-45)? I just read it this afternoon & found it pretty useful, especially in its emphasis on the pitfalls of "conciliation." ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 03:31:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Spencer Selby Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary In-Reply-To: <199502041037.CAA24504@slip-1.slip.net> Dear Tom, Excuse my blunder. Yr post was not addressed and it seemed you might be talking to me, or maybe both of us at the same time. I guess I was butting in without knowing it. I do have an interest in what you're saying to Jeffrey, and a disagreement, I'm afraid. I would say theory is, as such, no more positive in getting the work going than it is with understanding. In both cases it is a double-edged sword, just as dangerous or potentially destructive as it may be beneficial. Anything that attempts to ask or answer yr question (about adding space for poetry) is certainly a response, but whether that anything is successful, or more helpful than dangerous or destructive, is very much open to question. Formulated theory or knowledge may play a large or small role in an individual's creative life. Whatever the role, it is up to the individual, who cannot look to others for answers about this which may be necessarily correct. That's my reaction to yr most recent message to Jeffrey. Despite my disagreement, it struck me as quite interesting and provocative. Yr words are never blah blah blah to me. Which may be why I keep butting in. Yrs, Spencer Selby On Fri, 3 Feb 1995, Tom Mandel wrote: > Gosh spencer, I was replying to Jeffrey Timmons! No wonder > you thought I'd missed the context of your reply to me, as > I'd missed the reply altogether. > > tom > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 07:34:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Perelman Subject: instant up-to-date info on NEA It's 7:15 Saturday morning, the day of the Philly NEA event, and there's a foot of snow--"It was snowing and it was going to snow," as they say. Everything downtown's shut down. Before starting resceduling phoning, I need to know--will an event next Saturday (11th) still have an effect on the legislative process? What exactly is happening in DC? When are hearings/votes scheduled? Whoever has info and is up reading e-mail PLEASE let me know as soon as possible. Thanks! Bob Perelman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 08:43:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: FUNKHOUSER CHRISTOPH Subject: Anti-Hegemony Project > Subject: Poetry Emperor Tours Disaster Area > Copyright: 1999 by The Anti-Hegemony Project > Date: 1 Jan 99 00:01:00 EST > Priority: negligible > > Lines: 77 > > BUFFALO (AHP) -- Three weeks after a newspaper editorial > caused widespread devastation to the Poetics Program, poetry's > emperor and empress paid a one-day visit, clasping hands with > disputants congregating in bars and classrooms. Some wept as they > spoke with the royal couple. > ``You've suffered a great deal,'' Emperor Keith said at his > first stop, a bar-and-grill-turned-poetry-establishment outside the > hard-hit city of Amherst. ``Please take good care of yourselves.'' > Clad in a ski jacket and a turtleneck, the emperor walked > among the students and teachers, shaking hands with some and > exchanging a few words with others. > ``Please hold onto your hope,'' Empress Rosmarie told the > > ---More--- > > Group bleari.nooz.disaster available: 1492 - 1776 unread: 13 > > > article 1500 14-FEB-1999 06:00:00 > > > > crowd. > At a benefit reading for victims of another disaster the > emperor knelt on a sticky floor among cigarette butts to speak with > poets. They bowed deeply and repeatedly to him, and he inclined his > head as he listened. > Spontaneous contact with ordinary people is relatively common > for the imperial couple, even though they spend most of their time at > highly orchestrated ceremonial events in France, or cloistered in > their book-strewn winter palace at Providence, Rhode Island. > One student said she felt gratified by the visit, and was > thrilled when the empress touched her hand. ``I feel overwhelmed,'' > she said. ``That gave me courage to do my best to get over this > hardship.'' > The imperial couple was spending eight hours in the troubled > area, shuttling by Ford Taurus from site to site. Several dozen > disputants have been affected by the controversy. > In a city where the royal family usually receives velvet-glove > treatment from the gossipers, not much open criticism has been heard > about the trip's timing -- three weeks after the Poetics Program's > > ---More--- > > Group bleari.nooz.disaster available: 1492 - 1776 unread: 13 > > > article 1500 14-FEB-1999 06:00:00 > > > > newest controversy. > A speedy visit would have been a break with precedent. The > emperor took much longer than three weeks to visit San Francisco in > 1985 after a book-review triggered a tidal wave of angst affecting > far greater numbers of people. > In general, the Paris/Providence bureaucracy was slow to > recognize the seriousness of the editorial, and the Imperial > Household Agency, which runs the royal family's affairs, might > also have underestimated the scope of the disaster. > The palace dispatched Crown Prince Gizzi and Crown Princess > Willis on a Southern California tour three days after the quake. > Following oblique criticism, the pair cut short their trip and > returned to Rhode Island. > And the emperor's visit was scheduled only after reports > said Pennsylvania's Father Taggart wanted to inspect the damage > next week. > It wasn't known whether the palace was worried about the > emperor's visit being greeted with indifference or even hostility. > When Minister of Education Susan Howe fled from the confrontation, > > ---More--- > > Group bleari.nooz.disaster available: 1492 - 1776 unread: 13 > > > article 1500 14-FEB-1999 06:00:00 > > > rumor had it that other Cabinet Ministers shouted angrily at her. > Buffalo's commericial television station POETICS@UBVM, > which has had extensive live coverage from the damage zone during > the past three weeks, did not carry the emperor's arrival live. A > network executive said this was because the visit did not coincide > with any regular news programming. > And the imperial visit generated little excitement in advance > among participants in the controversy, who are coping with daily > discomfort at home and in the classroom. > ``It may make some people here happy, but I'm too busy just > getting by day to day,'' said shivering graduate student Joel Kuszai. > The temperature had plunged to just below freezing overnight and snow > was expected over the weekend. > The number of injured stood at 4. Several other people were > reported missing. The majority remained bemused or unaffected. More > aftershocks rattled the region last Wednesday, including one with a > magnitude of 4+. > Explanations are lacking for the spate of flareups, but some > have found fault with the absence of chicken wings at recent events. > > ---More--- > > Group bleari.nooz.disaster available: 1492 - 1500 unread: 13 > > > article 1500 14-FEB-1999 06:01:00 > > > > In Clemens Hall, deconstruction crews continued putting the > program's infrastructure back together -- piece by piece. Yesterday, a > disconnected modem line from Buffalo's outskirts into the nerve center of > the university started running. Officials expected it would take five or > six months to get the entire network humming. > ``Our biggest concern now is that people will lose hope,'' said > Jena Osman, the local official responsible for one of the recent benefits. > ``The emperor's visit may help boost morale.'' > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 10:20:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: dissembling and fakery My pessoa query reached me chained to some other messages; software problems on the buffalo host, I guess. In case it went by potential responders: "Re: ERic Pape's "...spirituality cannot be faked, only shared," I'm having trouble laying hands on the Fernando Pessoa poem which begins (something like) "The poet is a faker...." Does anybody know this poem? It's only a handful of lines long, and if one of you cd quote it to the list, I'd be grateful. If not, I"ll find it sometime in the next week or so and pass it along when I do." tom mandel ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 14:58:16 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: eric pape Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 4 Feb 1995 03:31:12 -0800 from Pound: A work of art, any serious work vivifies a man's total perception of relations. Maybe we need to broaden our definition of theory to "a man's total perception of relations." Just a thought, a gesture towards an imagined point of opening. Thanks, Eric (enpape.lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 18:03:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carla Billitteri Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: the future of poetry (forwarded) > Subject: Albany Summit Could Aid Peace > Copyright: 1999 by The Anti-Hegemony Project > Date: 31 Oct 99 12:01:00 EST > Priority: medium or less > > Lines: 63 > > *An AHP News Analysis > ALBANY (AHP) -- A planned show of unity by experimental and > political poets of different generations, designed to dispel fears that > extremist positions have killed the thought process, may bolster sagging > images at home. > But as leaders from Canada, Buffalo, Providence and other > communities gather for a summit in Albany, their ability to stop the > discord is in doubt. > Sarcastic sniping by poetic militants has shattered belief in > coexistence between the camps and generations. > For Canadian poets, the planned peace agreement is a disappointment > because it has failed to deliver a full endorsement of Canlit. > > ---More--- > > Group bleari.nooz.peace available: 1933 - 1945 unread: 0 > > > article 1945 24-DEC-1999 23:59:00 > > > > For dissident Buffalonians, making peace has not realized > dreams for a better job market and intellectual independence. > What the disputants hope to accomplish in Albany is mostly to > revitalize the image of the thought process and supply some momentum. > As the pivotal leaders in the coalition, Albany social planners Chris > Funkhouser and Belle Gironda will be called on to try and push forward > the stalled negotiations between experimental and political poets. > ``What's needed is some new spirit injected into the process. We > need to show those who say the process has exhausted itself that it > still has a lot of life,'' said Chris Stroffolino, an Albany spokesman. > Others disagree. Albany participant Jill Hanifan has in effect > sought to freeze the expansion of autonomy, demanding a meaningful effort > by New Yorker Sandy Baldwin to curb his irony. She also hopes that > Washington and Providence will help persuade the others it is time to > crack down on those who would criticize the sincere efforts of poets > like Jimmy Carter. > Buffalo poet Nick Lawrence may get a better-than-usual > hearing for his "just gaming" plea because the fundamentalists who want > to spread their mantle over the entire region are also targeting poets > > > ---More--- > > Group bleari.nooz.peace available: 1933 - 1945 unread: 0 > > > article 1945 24-DEC-1999 23:59:00 > > > with senses of humor. > But Providence leaders say expectations that the Poetry > Project can influence militants are unrealistic. > ``We cannot stop the sarcastic sniping. Even academic > communities could not stop such attacks,'' Lee Ann Brown, the > Providence minister of community affairs, told The Anti-Hegemony > Project. > The only solution, she argued, was unfreezing subject matter > restraints and extending Poetics Program funding to the East Village. > ``How can St. Marks' authority be strong in fighting > extremists and isolating them while its people and institutions are > separated between the Left Coast and downtown'' she said. > Rod Smith wants religious extremists to lift the closure > imposed on discourse after the two mail bombings that left writers > on both sides of the generational divide stunned. > Jed Rasula, Chief Mullah from Kingston, said for many, ``We > are all fish in an aquarium -- politics is the water we swim in.'' > But New York City participants complain that the Buffalo > imprimatur gives an air of legitimacy to the flow of babble claiming > > ---More--- > > Group bleari.nooz.peace available: 1933 - 1945 unread: 0 > > > article 1945 24-DEC-1995 23:59:00 > > > > valuable bandwidth and attention. They note that several Providence > and Albany poets cheered the recent mailings, and Buffalo staffers did not > publically condemn the attack. > The impact on the poetry community has been far-reaching, and > Buffalo is facing a crisis of credibility that for the first time is > prompting calls for an embargo on funded publications. > ``The real question is ... whether poetry will collapse and > when,'' Douglas Rothschild wrote in an editorial column in the liberal > Poetry Project Newsletter. > Others took a more sanguine view. ``I've been reading and > writing in near-isolation for over twenty years,'' declared Albany's > jovial patriarch Charles Stein. ``I think I'll head over to the diner > and relax.'' > ------ > EDITOR'S NOTE -- Guantanamo Bey, AHP Chief of Bureau in > Toronto, has covered the New Coast since 1993. > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 01:20:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Re- the real language po In-Reply-To: <199501292017.MAA18074@whistler.sfu.ca> from "BLUOMA" at Jan 29, 95 10:46:04 am Well, my wife's name is Angela Luoma, and I am here to say that she's the real Luoma. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 01:32:28 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Cienfuegos In-Reply-To: <199502010802.AAA16832@whistler.sfu.ca> from "James Sherry" at Jan 31, 95 09:25:26 pm I cant remember the details of the context in whixh Cienfuegos made his sharp comment on revolutionary art. I read an account in a Mexican newspaper (this a short time before C.'s plane disappeared), and I do remember that the contxt (for the newspaper story) was that Cienfuegos seemd to have Fidel's ear, and the hope was that the CP would not come along and impose its usual ban on Freud, surrealism, etc. I should have been a auto-clipping service at the time. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 01:55:19 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: the future of poetry (forwarded) In-Reply-To: <199502050202.SAA14668@whistler.sfu.ca> from "Carla Billitteri" at Feb 4, 95 06:03:11 pm Phew! Canada as a community on a par with Buffalo or Providence! That feels great! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 07:38:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Still Espousing Rae wrote: > The newspaper here (The Union) did do a nice article on the Espousing >event. What did they say? How did they frame the occasion? Has Cole or anyone talked w/ Cunninham's office yet? Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 07:48:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Re- the real language po George Bowering wrote: > >Well, my wife's name is Angela Luoma, >and I am here to say that she's the real Luoma. > But can she play second base? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 16:17:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carla Billitteri Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Leaving the Rat Race Early > Subject: Leaving The Rat Race Early > Keywords: Lang-Po, Gerontology > Copyright: 1999 by The Anti-Hegemony Project > Date: 21 Sept 99 14:92 EST > Priority: advanced > > Lines: 104 > > WASHINGTON, D.C. (AHP) -- Six year ago, Tom Mandel swore off > poetry readings, tossed aside his notebooks and abandoned the tedious > job of keeping up with the output of his peers. > The Lang-Po Executive, then 45, left the rat race while > still in his prime to become a post-literacy volunteer, tutor > disadvantaged kids by e-mail, and perhaps run for local office. > (Yes, he even took up rolfing.) > ``I started with the project when I was in my 30s; put in 15 > years, maybe more'' said Mandel, who lives in Washington, D.C. with > his wife, also a poetry executive. ``I'm really involved in community > affairs now, more than ever before.'' > > ---More--- > > Group bleari.poetry.biz available 1945 - 1960 available: 0 > > > article 1960 1-DEC-1999 10:10:10 > > > > Mandel is among the tens upon tens of poets to take advantage > of early retirement packages offered by cost-cutting poetics programs > over the last decade. > This work force streamlining has helped lower the average > retirement age for poets to around 50 today -- ten years younger than > thirty years ago and seven years earlier than what was long considered > the typical ``pulitzer'' age, said Lorrie Gramm, who runs Gramm Crack > Poetics Advisers in Iowa City, Iowa. > These statistics are even more startling considering the > death-rates of poets in the 1950s, '60s and '70s due to ``lifestyle'' > demands, such as drink, drugs and suicide. > But Gramm and other experts believe the trend is reversing. > By the next century, many aging baby boomers -- who comprise a third > of the poetry-writing population -- will have to work longer because > fewer institutions will offer early buyouts and many will have > eliminated traditional writing programs altogether. > Although more than half of all poets hope to retire before > age 65 -- 55 percent, according to a 1997 _Sulfur_ magazine poll -- > most will lack the intellectual wherewithal to get by on their own. > > ---More--- > > Group bleari.poetry.biz available: 1945 - 1960 unread: 0 > > > article 1960 1-DEC-1999 10:10:10 > > > > In fact, Gramm said, by the year 2025 only half of all people > ages 60 to 65 will be able to quit writing, compared with 95 percent > now. By 2050, only 5 percent can reach that goal, she said. > Gramm says she's seen a recent increase in baby boom clients > coming in with dreams of beating the odds. > ``I don't sense from people that they are happy. They are > tolerating the poetry because they need to keep their minds off > their other troubles,'' she said. > Younger writers too are thinking ahead. > Jessica Grimm, 35, an ``experimental writing'' executive, > survived a San Francisco restructuring a few years back. Although > she feels secure in her new locale and enjoys her work, she isn't > counting on being there until 65. With a goal of stopping by age 50, > she contributes the maximum pages permitted to a company-sponsored, > crit-deferred letter writing program, and invests heavily in journal > notes. > ``I don't think you can plan on having a 30- or 40-year > career,'' the Oberlin poet, editor and librarian said. ``Even if > you can, most poetry movements have passed the responsibility for > > ---More--- > > Group bleari.poetry.biz available: 1945 - 1960 unread: 0 > > > article 1960 1-DEC-1999 10:10:10 > > > thinking ahead to the individual writers.'' > Mandel's is almost a textbook example of early retirement > at its best: Tom and his wife Beth Josselow, herself a published poet, > rest comfortably on the reputation of books published by Tuumba, > Burning Deck, GAZ and Coincidence Press, amongst others. His > inclusion in one of the two major Lango-Po anthologies insures his > ability to sound off on a wide variety of poetic and theoretical > topics for years to come. > That leaves Mandel free to take up rolfing, fool around > on the internet -- and sell computers. > To maintain their self-images, most poets need to publish > at least two books with ``big'' houses -- or with highly regarded > small-press houses. Anthologies, awards and teaching appointments > also help. But many experts believe that by the next century, with > fewer perks to go around, individuals will have to fend for > themselves, seeking meaning in the activity itself. > ``During NEA mania in the '70s, some poets canceled > traditional career building ... in favor of defined contribution > plans like the Associated Writing Programs,'' said Stephanie > > ---More--- > > Group bleari.poetry.biz available 1945 - 1960 unread: 0 > > > article 1960 1-DEC-1994 10:10:10 > > > > Rhodes-Hoper, director of the Gerontology Center at New Mexico > University in Albuquerque, New Mexico. > Rhodes-Hoper believes the NEA and other grant programs > will be around in the future, but ``there probably will be some > jockeying around of benefits.'' > Individuals who regularly set aside work for retirement, > either through a diary of some kind or an Unpublished Manuscript > Account, will withstand these changes the best, said Allen Ginsberg, > a financial consultant in the New York area. > Unfortunately, he noted, most people don't. A recent > survey by the accounting firm of S.P.D. found 75 percent of all > poetry movements with at least 6 participants offered ``collaborative > writing'' and other retirement programs last year, but only a small > percent of eligible writers participated. What's more, the average > poet contributed only half the maximum amount allowed. > ``The odds are you're going to live quite a while into > retirement. If you don't plan for it now, you just better ... hope > you die before you retire,'' Ginsberg said. He echoed some of the > warnings used by many poetry analysts to get people to write for > > ---More--- > > Group bleari.poetry.biz available: 1945 - 1960 unread: 0 > > > article 1960 1-DEC-1999 10:10:10 > > > retirement. > Ginsberg says early retirement can be achieved by many, > although individuals need to start planning in their 20s and 30s. > ``Early retirees make a lot of sacrifices during their writing > years. They consciously decide to not save 10 percent of their > writings but 20 percent,'' Ginbserg said. > Gramm says early retirees of the future may decide to write > part time, either because they enjoy writing or need the extra > attention. ``This is sort of a middle ground,'' she said. > Such was the case with Ed Dorn, of Boulder, Colorado. Since > taking early retirement from Rolling Stock Corp., Dorn, 65, started > a small muckraking business. He's busy around hunting season, but the > rest of the year he makes his own hours, reading out-of-date history > books and picking fights with neighbors down the road. He has no > complaints. > ``I'm doing the things I like to do,'' Dorn said. ``Those > lazy flower children and their punk-rock spawn can go hang, for all > I care.'' > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 18:54:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Lawrence Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Tough Cops > Subject: Tough Cops Look For Trouble > Copyright: 1999 by The Anti-Hegemony Project > Date: 25 Dec 99 00:01:00 EST > > Lines: 95 > > BUFFALO (AHP) -- Ken Sherwood and Loss Glazier are trolling > the desolate streets of Buffalo, trying to decide whose pockets > to poke, whose socks to stretch, which kid to search. > Since it's snowing heavily on this particular night, the Poetics > Program cops have few choices. No matter. Even the two men shoveling > the sidewalk seem suspicious. > ``They want this clean 'cause they've got something going on,'' > says Glazier, 37. > Glazier and Sherwood, 26, are two members of an elite, > 20-member unit known as the Core Reserve, a force with broad powers to > look for proscribed books and papers in the possession of suspicious > characters. > Their aggressive techniques are being echoed by poetics > > ---More--- > > Group bleari.rime.organized available: 18 - 25 unread: 1 > > article 24 26-DEC-1999 12:12:12 > > > programs nationwide. They stop and search with virtual impunity. > They finger e-mail accounts and ask girlfriends and boyfriends to > let them rummage through desks. They hold meetings with the students > and faculty. They stop cars in the parking lot, feel under dashboards, > frisk occupants. > Just what counts as proscribed materials is uncertain. No > matter. > ``Now, this area down here, we got a lotta Olson,'' says > Glazier, tour guide in hell. ``This next set of offices, we get a > lot of performance-oriented stuff, screaming and such-like. > ``There was a guy up here who people say kept his poetry up > his rectum,'' he says, very matter-of-factly. ``One day we found > him strangled with his pants off and his legs up in the air. We > assumed the poems had been removed.'' > The car coasts to curbs alongside earnest-looking youths > trudging in the snow. A searchlight blinds them, sometimes bouncing > off the glossy covers of university press paperbacks the police say > are badges of ganghood. > ``You get a guy with four or five books and he starts > > ---More--- > > Group bleari.rime.organized available: 18-25 unread: 1 > > article 24 26-DEC-1999 12:12:12 > > > running, he's going to automatically cling to himself and hold that > pile while he runs,'' says Glazier. ``We call it the book run.'' > The officers check purses, disc-containers, sports jackets > and long droopy cardigan sweaters. They poke fingers inside gloves. > Nobody complains. ``You know what it's about,'' Glazier tells a > boy. > Sherwood gestures at a house. ``We got three contraband books > out of there. Girls let us in.'' > ``Four books,'' corrects Glazier. ``The women were very > cooperative, but the rest of the family were upset the poetics police > were taking their books and stuff. It was a nice little seizure.'' > It is 9 p.m., three hours into the shift, and another two-man > team has found a slim volume during the search of a man who was > wearing a ski mask in the falling snow. > The bearded, friendly man turns out to be a watchman at a > warehouse that houses chicken wings and bleu cheeze for visiting > poets. And he's a former student of Robert Creeley's. But he doesn't > have a permit for the book. He's under arrest. > The officers ask if he'll sign a release-for-publication > > ---More--- > > Group bleari.rime.organized available: 18-25 > > article 24 26-DEC-1999 12:12:12 > > > form, essentially a waiver that exempts the police from liability. > He has agreed. > Inside the man's clean, modest rooms, the police find an > old John Wieners book, a dog-eared copy of The Colossus, a Bob Dylan > biography, a lot of anthropology books and a powerful computer. > ``I don't have nothing to hide,'' he says pleasantly. ``I'm > an ordinary person. Not too smart. I don't even have a modem.'' > Glazier and Sherwood are hardly back on the road when word > comes that another team has found a couple of kids with a manuscript > as they left a house with a reputation for "Lang-Po" sympathies. > The eldest, 30-year-old Nick, was carrying The Cultural > Studies Reader and a Bob Perelman book. The police figure Nick's > companion, 25-year-old Alan, has his own books at home. > They go to Alan's house nearby. The girlfriend comes to the > door. ``Oh my God,'' she says to the three uniformed cops. > Sgt. Tedlock, the supervisor who's called in to handle this > part, smoothly delivers a well-practiced pitch. > ``We wanted to let you know he's walking around with a kid > who's got The Cultural Studies Reader and he was coming out of a > > ---More--- > > Group bleari.rime.organized available: 18 - 25 unread: 1 > > article 24 26-DEC-1999 12:12:12 > > > known Lang-Po den,'' he says. > ``We're not going to arrest him,'' he says, setting up the > offer. ``Here's what I'm going to do.'' > The conversation takes place as the woman walks back up the > stairs, implicitly but not directly seeming to invite the officers > to follow along. Soon, everybody is up at the top of the stairs, in > the living room, a corner of which is the boy's study. > Tedlock, eyeing the packed and wobbly bookshelf, tells her > the police just want to look around, see if there's any contraband > material. The woman can watch them. Nobody will be arrested. > He holds out the release form. Everyone waits as the > girlfriend anxiously ponders it. > ``I know he doesn't have a manuscript in here,'' she > stammers. ``At least not a bad one.'' She seems to be weakening > when her boyfriend, giving her the eye, interrupts with a well-placed > ``Kristen. ...'' > Tedlock tells the boy not to interrupt, but it's too late. > The woman says no. The cops get terse, telling her the boy is bound > for trouble. > > ---More--- > > Group bleari.rime.organized available: 18-25 unread: 1 > > article 24 26-DEC-1999 12:12:12 > > > They leave. Alan grins. > ``I'll bet the farm there's Lang-Po in that house,'' Glazier, > frustrated, says outside. ``He knows it, she knows it.'' > ``Or that New Spirit stuff,'' adds Sherwood. > ``Yes, that was a suspicious looking setup,'' reflects Tedlock, > staring up at the snow. ``Mighty suspicious.'' > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 20:30:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ted Pelton Subject: Use da news 2 I was happy to see Bob Perelman's Philadelphia Enquirer op-ed. I think that op-ed pages may be as good a tool in this fight as contacting congressmen directly. I've heard many like to sustain their illusions of *fingers on the pulse* through hometown papers. This is my column from the Milwaukee Journal, Friday, January 13: With the recent swing in Congree back toward Reagan-era conservatism has come a new attempt to eliminate the National Endowment for the Arts. The NEA's budget isn't large, but its critics argue that any amount the government spends on the arts is too much, that funding the arts is not a legitimate function of government. Gingrich, Helms and others make this argument despite the examples of other major world governments, nearly all of which make funds available to support art and artists, many at much higher levels than the U.S. This simply highlights the fact that the main reason conservatives want to stop funding the arts is not to save money nor to keep government's purposes pure. It is because new art is ultimately very dangerous to a conservative world-view. Discouraging the production of non-commercial art in this country is consistent with other aspects of the conservative social agenda: school prayer, limiting women's reproductive freedoms, increasing the amount of capital in the coffers of America's richest citizens. The arts produce work that is often far too critical of such a social agenda to make many friends on the Right. These lawmakers want to silence voices of dissent. Wisconsin Senator Russ Feingold sees their attempt in the proper perspective, as censorship. I wrote him and several other Wisconsin lawmakers in the past few months to urge they support thet NEA. Feingold responded, "I believe, as a free society, we need to protect diversity and encourage the exchange of ideas. I regard some recent attempts to cut funding for NEA as attempts at censorship, and at silencing one part of this discussion." This position is consistent with the principles upon which the NEA was founded. At the inception of the NEA in 1965, Congress issued a defense of why governments should fund the arts. In part, it read: "The world leadership which has come to the United States cannot rest solely upon superior power, wealth, and technology, but must be solidly founded upon worldwide respect and admiration for the Nation's high qualities as a leader in the realm of ideas and of the spirit." It also read: "Democracy demands wisdom and vision of its citizens. It must therefore foster and support a form of education, and access to the arts and the humanities, designed to make people of all backgrounds and wherever located masters of the technology and not its unthinking servants." The NEA is most often reported in the press for scandals involving funding of controversial artists, such as the flap involving late photographer Robert Mapplethorpe a couple years ago. But its programs support the arts in local communities as well. This occurs both in terms of aiding local artists (individually or through local arts organizations) and in such things as helping fund performances by nationally known artists. In my own area, I think of the readings at Milwaukee's Woodland Pattern bookstore, for example; poets and fiction writers of national stature would not regularly give readings to small audiences in Milwaukee, as they do today, without the NEA. For people in your district, it might be the local orchestra or theatre, a travelling opera or ballet troupe. I confess I am not a disinterested observer of this issue. Last year I was awarded an NEA Literature Fellowship. I take the grant seriously, as an investment in my talent, and I hope my future work merits this investment. The myth of the artist whose vision remains pure despite economic difficulties is bogus; economics do force artists to quit making art and start making money. I was close to giving up fiction writing when I received funding. But I had also benefitted as a citizen from the NEA for years prior to winning this fellowship. I had attended NEA sponsored readings, theatre and concerts; I had read writers and seen work by artists who had their own careers supported by the NEA; I had enjoyed the benefits of local galleries and performance spaces which exist with the support of the NEA. I happen to enjoy art that isn't commerical, that wasn't created to make money. But even people whose interest in art extends no further than enjoying Hollywood movies should realize that even commercial artists owe a debt to serious, non-commercial art. Art not made for money takes more risks, taps more untouched stores of imagination, and often introduces the ideas and images that mainstream artists develop for more popular tastes. We all benefit from the NEA. Art also can provide us with morality of a sort different than the Right defines it. Not simply indulging in tired pieties, serious art, when critical of our institutions and our daily practices, can serve as the bell-ringer to wake up our national conscience. Funding the arts helps foster voices of dissent, a necessity in a healthy democracy. But Helms, Gingrich and company aren't interested in good art or healthy democracy. Nor is my congressman in Sheboygan, James Sensenbrenner. He has voted to eliminate the NEA for the past four years. He cites the same old cost arguments as the others. But money is a cloak over the real issue: the critics of the NEA want to promote their own set of cultural values while discouraging debate and critique. If money was the only issue, we would naturally expect Republicans to subject far more expensive weapons programs to the same cost-conscious scrutiny as they do the arts. For my part, I'd rather that someone abroad knew about my country because of American novels than because of American war technology. Ted Pelton ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 20:51:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary Spencer, I didn't think you'd butted in, not at all. Just wanted you to know I wasn't responding to something you'd articulated. There is no 3d position, outside the relation of person to what that person thinks, writes, reads, that can tell you if something is useful or not. The test is simple; if it's useful then it's useful. I.e. if an idea is provocative and allows one to work or enhances work, makes a new space for work then it's of interest. My caveat re: the Apexites (last mention) was that I was waiting for the impact of their ideas on work they'd do. Period. Natch, I have my own version of whther that's likely to be a positive impact, but that measures only its impact on me. After all, everybody knows I"m interested in _spirit_ (whatever that is), only they faiiled to mention what kind; in my tradition there are 3 forms of spirit. And even this line of thought, I take to be an attempt to articulate and render a little more subtle the Xtian notions taken over from a rather simple-minded roman _paganism_ (no bettre wrod comes to mind), which is how you get humans who are also divine, virginity as a cool positive value in the religion, and other affairs of _spiritual_ value in that tradition which are to me... oh, I dunno would vulgar and primitive be acceptable words? Not to step on any toes or anything. that whole paragraph shd have some keyboard graphic for tongue in cheek and serious at the same time, what my father (sleeping with all of them tonite, in peace) used to call _ribbing on the square_ (no doubt a westside chicago piece of 1920's lingo). no one has the pessoa citation at hand? Lots of books at Buffalo... Shd we discuss the 3 kinds of spirit in the Jewish intellectual tradition? how'bout it Spencer? tom Mandel ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 20:55:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Belle Gironda Subject: A Fish Story > Subject: Poetics Program Targets Big Fish > Copyright: 1999 by The Anti-Hegemony Project > Date: 21 Mar 99 12:00:00 EST > Priority: Code Blue > > Lines: 58 > > AMHERST (AHP) -- Cabinet Ministers for the Poetics Program > want the poetry ``mafia'' to give up more than 6 years of control > over the bustling, pungent stalls of the nation's largest ``fish > market.'' > Minister of Foreign Policy Robert Creeley announced plans > for the "Wednesdays at Four Plus" commission to better regulate and > investigate poets and critics doing business with the Poetics Program. > ``New York mayor Rudolf Giuliani's plan for Fulton Fish > Market gave me the idea,'' said Creeley, who declared an emergency > meeting of the Poetics Program to unveil the plan. ``The association > was natural -- fish, Olson, poetry, Buffalo ... it's your classic mob > situation.'' > > ---More--- > > Group bleari.nooz.rime.organized available: 5000 - 6000 unread: 50 > > > article 5050 1-APR-99 18:00:00 > > > > He and the other cabinet ministers hope to clean up what > many say has become a dangerous place for those who love poetry. > ``This has nothing to do with `Language Poetry','' said > Economics Minister Charles Bernstein, ``despite what everyone has > been saying.'' > ``It's that damned old boys network,'' says Education > Minister Susan Howe. ``Not that I have anything against old boys. > But enough's enough.'' > The size of the market has shrunk in recent semesters from > approximately 50 people a reading to only 5 or 10. > ``Students do not attend because they fear the readings are > only payback for favors,'' said a smiling Raymond Federman, newly > appointed Ambassador to France, a cabinet level position in the > current administration. > Some poets say New York's Segue family uses its control over > students at the university to impose a monopolistic ``tax'' on > discussion driving many to do business at other markets on the > Eastern Seaboard. > The allegations have never been substantiated. > > > ---More--- > > Group bleari.nooz.rime.organized available: 5000 - 6000 unread: 50 > > > article 5050 1-APR-1999 18:00:00 > > > > The ``fish market,'' nestled among windswept concrete > structures built on landfill in the early 1970s, is instrumental > in the processing of some dozen literary events a semester. These > events are linked to book sales and course offerings. > In the early 1990s it was taken over by Robert ``Books'' > Bertholf, a fish handler who oversaw day-to-day operations in the > market. > The market soon became a powerful center of rumored > cronyism. Recently, the market moved to a new Arts Center, > which some call a colder and grayer site. > Yet business is booming. This semester boasts more > literary events than ever. > Under the new proposal, the market would be managed by the > "Wednesdays at Four Plus" commission, which would set rates and > procedures for the market and impose fines for rules violations. > All poets operating in the market would have to be licensed > and registered. The commision would have the power to deny > licenses to anyone it deems unfit to do business. > ``But what constitutes a legitimate poet?'' wondered > Charles Bernstein. Such questions remain to be worked out by the > > ---More--- > > Group bleari.nooz.rime.organized available: 5000 - 6000 unread: 50 > > > article 5050 1-APR-1999 18:00:00 > > > > commission. > Finding answers for these questions excites some ministers > and worries others. ``Anything could happen,'' beamed Raymond > Federman. > A dour Dennis Tedlock, Minister of Former Colonies, wasn't > so sure. ``Fish? The market is um, a sort of metaphor. People eat > fish and study them ... there might be other ways we haven't tried > to make ... friends with the fish.'' > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 21:37:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: Spencer's gauntlet, etc. In-Reply-To: <01HMKWNXSZRK8X5E0S@asu.edu> On Thu, 2 Feb 1995, Spencer Selby wrote: > Poetry/art has its own level, and whatever it is or may be, it is not the > same as theory or criticism or writers' discourses or internet exchanges. > This view may strike some as extreme, simplistic or old-fashioned, but I > think it's dangerous when artists or critics start saying (or building > contexts in which) their discourse is on the same level as the art. Why? Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 21:49:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: Re- Re- CALL FOR A DECIS In-Reply-To: <01HML7M8JK1EL1ZRPG@asu.edu> On Thu, 2 Feb 1995, BLUOMA wrote: > Lately, I've been staring at high tension towers to get "inspiration." > I've even taken to rendering them in photoshop. I can't articulate why > I'm obsessed with power lines, but it/they continue to drive the work. > > Perhaps this tack is too individualistic to have meaning to a large group. > But I am more interested in learning new methods of doing good work-- > how to get new obsessions--than in discussing the correct way to write. > > I'd be curious to know what motivates others. It's odd what strikes one isn't it? For me, among a host of "things," old boxes, pieces of twisted and rusted metal I find along the rail road tracks by my house, the sound of the hummingbirds, grackles, doves, sparrows, and mockingbirds intermingling, the terrible noises I can make with my computer's sound processing software or my guitar . . . these things turn up in my writing in various ways and without trying to reduce any of the plurality of the different expressions to single subject I would hazard that there is some shared set of concerns in each. The idea of place--"The most in time is where you're meant to be"--has been of vital importance lately, trying to document the sense of being in a particular location; this takes its form in music by recording the sounds of a space of time--whatever happens in that time--and then layering these into juxtapositions of moments. This has the benefit of inspiration and of craft. I'd be excited to share some of these experiments with anyone, were they interested (send snail address). Anyway, I thought the question a good one as it raises the nuts and bolts (and philosophical attitudes) of work and would like to continue with this ... but I've got to go now. I'd like to take this to writing.... Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 21:53:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary In-Reply-To: <01HMLAFKGYGYL1ZSX9@asu.edu> > Bla hbla hbla hbla hbla hbla hbla hbla hbla hbla hbla hbla hbla hblah > bla hbla hbla hbla hbla hbla hbla ENGAGEMENT hbla hbla hbla hblah > bla hbla hbla hbla hbla hbla hbla hbla hbla hbla hbla hbla hbla hbla > Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 22:04:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary In-Reply-To: <01HMN06MVXXUL208JY@asu.edu> Thanks to Tom Mandel for elaborating his comments, they were much appreciated. I must mull over the question of what provides space for poetry as it is worth a more detailed response than I am capable of at present. Spencer can butt in any time, as far as I'm concerned. It's fun. Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 03:11:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Martin Spinelli Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: BIG BROTHER is asking Folks, Senator Larry Pressler of South Dakota, chairman of the Senate Commerce Committee, recently sent a letter to the heads of the CPB, NPR, and PBS asserting that privatization/commercialization of public broadcasting was inevitable. The letter demands information to incriminate public broadcasting as purveyors of leftist dissent and asks for financial data (to expedite commercialization). The Senator is angry at the CPB's meager attempts to protect itself by distributing information about the funding situation. Pressler is not content to simply rail against Frontline for bias, P.O.V. (independent video) for bias, and American Playhouse for nudity and profanity, he also decries underwriters for influencing program content (how this will be solved by the introduction of completely deregulated market forces and advertising remains unclear to me). After Pressler's closed-door meetings with info-mogul Rupert Murdoch, a union shamefully under-reported, it now appears that expansion into the non-commercial bandwidth is the real prize for media conglomerates. Once they're sold off they're gone for good, reclaiming them would be next to impossible. This also sets a dangerous precedent for the net: if public educational programming is pushed off the air, how much bandwidth can we expect will be set aside for free educational use if they get around to carving up the internet? If we sit by and shrug we'll get what we deserve: a sea of informercials, complimentary copy, Howard Stern, and Power Rangers, in perpetuity. I'll be posting a letter to download and send Pressler soon. Please do something. I'm attaching an excerpted version of Pressler's questions. Credit where credit is due, he does manage to mention Paul DeMan and Barney on the same page. If you'd like the full text e-mail me at v139hla3@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu; also, check out the usenet group wny.wbfo. Martin Spinelli Buffalo, NY >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear Mr. Carlson: Enclosed is a series of questions concerning the operation of public broadcasting. In addition to responses to these questions, please include any documentation, memos, meeting notes, contracts and any other written material to substantiate the answers to these questions. Please respond to these questions by February 10, 1995. Thank you for your prompt reply. Sincerely, (signed by Sen. Larry Pressler) LP/dma All answers to questions should be substantiated with written materials, documents, memos, meeting notes, contracts, etc. 5. Please detail all efforts by recipients of CPB funds to generate Congressional support for continued federal funding: a. How much has been spent of this effort by all of public broadcasting? b. How much has been spent to present the other side of this controversial issue? e. Please list all news coverage and interview programs and provide transcripts. f. Please explain how CPB has assured that this is balanced and objective coverage. 6. Does CPB have printed guidelines for grant applications for the program fund? How are decisions made on which programs to fund? At what stage are considerations of balance and objectivity brought to bear? Please explain step-by-step the processes involved. d. Some have suggested the lack of competition in public television is due to anti-competitive practices at PBS. How is CPB working to increase competition and monitor collusion and pricefixing in public television? 2.) Please provide a list of controversial issues covered by NPR and related programs. 9. Of CPB's total budget, why is only $4 million allotted to the National Radio Program Production Fund? e. Document each one of last year's awards and indicate how they fulfill your priorities to: 1) increase and/or diversify public radio's audience, 2) yield quality programming that is illuminating and inspiring as well as appealing, and 3) seek programmatic innovation. j. Submit job descriptions of all 475 full time NPR employees. Include gender, age, time of service, salary, and ethnicity. k. Please submit a list of regular part-time employees. Include gender, age, time of service, salary, and ethnicity. 10. CPB provides funding to PBS's National Program Service. c. How are programs reviewed for objectivity and balance prior to funding? Please describe the process in detail. Does the CPB board participate in this process? h. How are political balance and diverse religious and cultural perspectives represented? i. Does CPB keep racial and ethnic data to assure compliance with EEOC directives? How does CPB ensure against religious discrimination? Please provide a copy of all guidelines. j. Some producers feel that their applications do not receive full attention from CPB staff. Several months ago, one producer submitted a documentary proposal about the "United States Merchant Marine" to CPB President Carlson, who wrote back to say that he had passed it along to the programming department. The producer never heard from CPB again. 1.) What was the disposition of the Merchant Marine proposal? 7.) How many proposals does ITVS reject each year? Does ITVS provide a list and description of rejected proposals? If not, how can Congress provide effective oversight without knowing what was rejected, what was funded, and the reasons? 8.) Has ITVS rejected any proposals for a documentary on the controversy surrounding literary critic Paul DeMan, father of "deconstruction"? If so, please provide complete documentation for this decision, including panel comments. 12. What are the profit sharing provisions in CPB contracts with producers and stations who derive revenue from CPB supported productions? a. Please provide copies of contracts with producers and copies of accounting for revenues and expenditures related to CPB financed distributors including: 1.) Children's Television Workshop, Inc. 2.) New York Center for Visual History, Inc. 3.) Public Affairs Television, Inc. . . . 3.) What is the commercial value of the current public broadcasting system. That is, what is the comparative valuation of the hardware--satellite transponders, transmitters, studio , etc.--and software--library of programs belonging to system producers, goodwill, etc.? 4.) Please list the top 100 salaries paid related to public broadcasting. Include producers, vendors of merchandise, and executives of companies whose product is sold or displayed in public broadcasting. 5.) What is the value of real estate, stock and bond portfolios owned by public broadcasters and/or their parent organizations. Please break this down by station and include related production companies. 6.) What would be the value of comparable commercial time equivalent to that provided by public broadcasting? Please provide a sample rate card for public radio and television. 13. Some critics have complained that "underwriting for content" is a form of payola or plugola. a. How does CPB ensure that underwriting has no influence on programming? d. Should the National Science Foundation be permitted to underwrite science coverage on NPR? Should it be permitted to underwrite a series on exploration for PBS? e. Please provide a list of underwriters and the content area of programs they sponsor in public broadcasting. h. The National Education Association sponsors news programming on NPR, for example. Does this create the impression of impropriety, since the NEA also attempts to influence legislation? i. NPR spends its own money and resources on lobbying Capitol Hill. How does NPR keep its lobbying activities separate from its news broadcasts? Please provide documentation of the procedures. m. Doesn't the requirement for balanced and objective coverage apply equally to the controversy over public broadcasting funding? If not, why not? n. What amount of money has CPB spent on any and all advertising or promotion campaigns designed to increase public support for public broadcasting? o. Has CPB ever spent any money on advertisements or promotions raising questions about the management and integrity of the public broadcasting system? p. How can CPB justify spending money in advertising or promotions or money for only one side of the public broadcasting debate? q. Please give a comparable market value for the air time on PBS stations for the Hal Riney spots promoting public broadcasting. 14. Some critics have complained that public broadcasting provides promotional value for books and other products in addition to educational services. a. Please list all books, records, CDs and other items promoted on public radio and television since 1992 at both a local and national level. b. Please list gross sales of these items, and analyze the contribution public broadcasting exposure might have had to their success. 1.) For example, what were sales of Armistead Maupin's "Tales of the City" prior to the announcement of the PBS series? And what were they afterwards? How much money can one say Armistead Maupin made due to sales of his book through PBS promotion? c. How are books, records, and CDs chosen for promotion on PBS through related programming? Please describe the procedures used in each case since 1992. 15. Some conservative producers have complained of PBS executives giving them a hard time for ideological reasons. a. Please describe the changes PBS required in Michael Pack's film "Campus Culture Wars" and give the reason for each change. Were these types of editorial oversight decisions made by PBS executives prior to broadcast of "The liberators" and "Journey to the Occupied Lands?" b. Please describe the changes PBS is requiring in the second episode of "Reverse Angle" and the reasons for each change. Were these types of editorial oversight decisions made by PBS executives prior to broadcast of "the Liberators" and "Journey to the Occupied Lands"? c. Please describe the changes PBS required in the recent Ford Foundation-funded documentary about Community Development Corporations. If no changes were required, why not? How did this program meet PBS guidelines designed to prevent underwriters from benefitting from the subject matter of the programs they fund. e. Have John Dinges at NPR and Mary Jane McKinven at PBS done a good job of assuring balance and objectivity in programming? If so, why are there so many complaints? 16. What steps has CPB taken since Sen. Dole's speech on "Barneygate" to participate in the profits of CPB funded programs? Please provide specific examples and copies of contracts. 17. Please provide a list of all political contributions over $250 dollars made by individuals employed by or working under contract for CPB-funded entities. 22. In 1992 Congress passed legislation requiring the CPB board of directors to take steps to insure balance and objectivity in programming, including the review of programs to identify balance programs and the commissioning of remedial programs. a. How many programs did the CPB board review for balance and objectivity from 1992 to present? b. How many programs were identified as having problems with balance and objectivity? c. How many programs were funded to correct programs with balance and objectivity problems? d. What procedures for review and commissioning of programs to ensure balance and objectivity have been established by the CPB board since 1992? e. When CPB director Vic Gold complained about anti-semitic programming on a Pacifica radio station funded by CPB, did the CPB board review Pacifica's programming for balance and objectivity? If not, why not? f. Without such a review, how can CPB assure Congress that Pacifica stations are fulfilling community service obligations under the public telecommunications act to provide excellence, diversity, objectivity, balance etc.? k. How does CPB insure stations provide balance and objectivity in programming they produce and distribute? l. Has CPB ever denied funding to a producing station because its productions were not balanced or objective? m. If so, which stations? n. If not, how did CPB determine productions from these stations were balanced or objective? o. Has CPB ever denied funding to any station consortium because of complaints programs were not balanced or objective or for other reasons, since passage of the 1992 legislation? 1.) There have been complaints about Frontline from a variety of groups and individuals. Please provide correspondence between CPB and the Frontline consortium relating to issues of balance and objectivity in consortium programming. 2.) There have been complaints about The American Experience regarding programs, including "The Liberators." Please provide correspondence between CPB and The American Experience relating to issues of balance and objectivity in their programming. 3.) There have been complaints about American Playhouse programming on grounds of profanity, nudity, and indecency as well as questions of balance and objectivity. Please provide correspondence between CPB and American Playhouse in this regard. p. Has CPB ever withheld funding from any other series or production entity because of failure to provide balanced and objective programming? 1.) There have been complaints about the P.O.V. series and ITVS's objectivity and balance. Please provide copies of correspondence with P.O.V. and ITVS relating to this issue. 2.) CPB director Vic Gold has inquired how a show called "Don't Believe the Hype" will treat this issue. Please provide copies of correspondence between CPB and the producers. q. Has CPB ever commissioned a program or series specifically to balance an inadequate program or series? r. Has CPB ever required a producer, station, or ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 00:34:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Galen Cope Subject: Poetry Fashion Benefit Falls Short Subject: Poetry Fashion Benefit Falls Short Copyright: 1999 by The Anti-Hegemony Project Date: 1 May 99 19:84 EST Lines: 50 NEW YORK (AHP) -- Despite all the glitz and glamour of New York's po-literati, authors and publishers were unable to stitch together the fraying fabric of the once-famous National Endowment for the Arts. A cross-dressing fashion benefit called "Fidgety Spouting" nevertheless gave occasion for a poetry free-for-all that left participants wondering if it's all worth the effort. James Sherry, Segue's CEO, lent his bowery loft space for the showings, and gave the poets permission to use a recently abandoned building near famed punk rock club CBGB's for dressing. But the loft was too small to seat the long guest list, and the streets around CBGB's are no place for a ``signora'' to be walking, especially in mink and jewels. Group bleari.nooz.fashion available 2001 - 2525 unread: 1 article 2524 31-MAY-1999 24:59:59 Even the cash bar offered by Sherry at the quickly planned romp was not enough to lift the spirits of the crowd, who fear the end of New York as a literary capital. Gone are the heady days of the 1960s when Frank O'Hara, Joe Brainard and Jim Brodey dressed as Giulietta Masina, Audrey Hepburn and Sophia Loren, sipping drinks with the world's titled and wealthy. Gone is Alice Notley, who single-handedly kept New York on the international lit map until she packed her bags for Paris. The fashionable pack who swoop into Paris and Vancouver have long ago abandoned New York. So have many of the top younger poets, presumably because the local publishers don't have enough money to put out their books. Despite their gratitude to Sherry, poets also lament the lack of a glamorous site for the readings. The Paris shows are at the Louvre. Last but not least was the quality of the poetry on the Bowery runway. Except for a tiny few such as Bernstein, Lauterbach and Godfrey, the big names are gone. The field is left to little-known writers catering mainly to the Lower East Side Group bleari.nooz.fashion available: 2001 - 2525 unread: 1 article 2524 31-MAY-1999 23:59:59 ``slacker'' crowd. ``What we have heard tonight was ugly self-indulgent lang-po dolled up with bridal gowns,'' said Rob Fitterman, who has helped run the Ear Inn series for several years. ``Where is the music?'' Others were put off by the sameness of the verse. ``The dresses showed more imagination than the poetry,'' said Paul Beatty, who recalled in his own outfit the chic touch of his Southern California origins. Things got ugly when a restive Eileen Myles challenged the ``girls'' to submit to a wet t-shirt contest. ``Ladies, ladies!'' shouted a heavily made-up Bruce Andrews, ``Remember the '70s! Women's lib!'' If things don't change, says Fitterman, New York couture has ``a maximum of two more years of life.'' For the next round of the ``Fidgety Spouting'' events, Sherry has promised some of New York's most famous outdoor spots such as Times Square and the Central Park Reservoir, already the site of the televised fashion gala, ``Donne Sotto le Stelle.'' ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 11:25:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary In-Reply-To: <199502042114.AA18330@panix2.panix.com> In the original Greek use of the word theory, it was not opposed to praxis but to doxa (orthodox), so that theory related to the conduct of the individual life and doxa to social conduct and rites in society. Ref: Habermas. I have an extensive discussion of this in Our Nuclear Heritage where the concept of theoretical poetry is broached. James ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 11:36:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: the future of poetry (forwarded) In-Reply-To: <199502050957.AA10425@panix.com> Just taking this opportunity at the mention of the poets of Canada to add to the list of poetry books addressing the subject of Language poetry from the Canadians: Alan Davies, *Signage* (Roof Books) Steve McCaffery *North of Intention* (Roof Books co-published in Canada by Nightwood) and Steve's issue of *Open Letter* called "Politics of the Referent" which was central to the process of "defining" language poetry for better and for getting it labelled, but Steve referred to it as "language-oriented" poetry (not the first time the phrase was used). If you want to know it's there to be found out. On Sun, 5 Feb 1995, George Bowering wrote: > Phew! > Canada as a community on a par with Buffalo or Providence! > That feels great! > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 11:45:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary In-Reply-To: <199502060152.AA15106@panix2.panix.com> You know Tom I wonder why with all this discussion of Apex, there have been no remarks from any of the signators which strikes me as what one person called Martini Terrorism or have they said it all in their magazine. Will you dance? If not, I suspect that the forum is too scrappy for a response which they would consider effective against the broadsides unloaded here. I too felt that when asked why I was interested in Lew's prose. I didn't want to expose my partially developed notions to the dogs of the net. How can we invite more varied response and still be able to say what we want. I mean it's fine for us to say what we think, but what about those of whom we are speaking? Jmaes ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 17:54:20 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "I.LIGHTMAN" Subject: Re: apex of the m... Well, of course I posted a manifesto because I wanted to flush out some fellow spirits, not engage in debate - if I'd had a hope of that, of course I'd have sent a longer message. On a list where a really dumb message about aphasia can go out unchallenged - by people supposedly devoted to the politics of language definition - there ain't no shared values, and there ain't no space for civilised debate. I do have one civilised question: can anyone sell me a copy of Barrett Watten's Progress? I love the library copy I have and want my own. Is it still in print? A debating point, perhaps. In the American Tree is to my mind an astounding good piece of anthology editing - a very great book. This is why I have a lot of time for the comments Ron Silliman made on this list a while back about laissez-faire editing in the new poetry; he has cred on the subject. But editing is a big issue, alright: about how one looks at one's own work, and how one allows oneself to be theorised and institutionalised - the effort to influence this was what I love about the journals Poetic s Journal, and indeed L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E. So where'd it go? _From the Other Side of the Century_ is a terrible book, in my humble opinion - everyone represented by work referring to method, where Silliman represented writers by work either personally daring or descriptively oor energetically activating. From the Other Side is about a poetics as a style, a garment, a ticket to esteem, a movement got lazy, where In The American Tree is about a movement breaking free and finding method and setting new agendas. Well, if G1 won't keep to that spirit, G2 will, and of course you won't like it. Ira Lightman I.LIGHTMAN@UEA.AC.UK ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 17:20:23 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "I.LIGHTMAN" Subject: forwarded posting about Eric Mottram From: MX%"A.Goldman@ukc.ac.uk" 3-FEB-1995 23:09:06.11 To: MX%"american-studies@mailbase.ac.uk" CC: Subj: Eric Mottram Return-Path: Received: from xgate.uea.ac.uk by cpcmg.uea.ac.uk (MX V4.1 VAX) with SMTP; Fri, 03 Feb 1995 23:09:08 WET Received: from norn.newcastle.ac.uk by xgate.uea.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) id <08242-0@xgate.uea.ac.uk>; Fri, 3 Feb 1995 22:58:50 +0000 Received: by norn.mailbase.ac.uk id (8.6.8.1/ for mailbase.ac.uk); Thu, 2 Feb 1995 21:38:09 GMT Received: from mercury.ukc.ac.uk by norn.mailbase.ac.uk id (8.6.8.1/ for mailbase.ac.uk) with SMTP; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 21:37:40 GMT Message-ID: <199502022137.VAA05842@norn.mailbase.ac.uk> Received: from eagle by mercury with UKC POP3+; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 17:32:49 +0000 Date: Thu, 02 Feb 95 17:22:21 +0000 From: Arnold Goldman To: american-studies@mailbase.ac.uk Subject: Eric Mottram X-List: american-studies@mailbase.ac.uk Reply-To: Arnold Goldman Sender: american-studies-request@mailbase.ac.uk Precedence: list The death of Eric Mottram has shocked those who knew how energetic he was to the last week of his life. That this was so, will give pleasure to all those who never saw him otherwise in his 40+ years as a teacher. We will all have our particular memories. I lose count when I try to tally up the names of writers and titles whom I first heard of from Eric and who I cannot now imagine having "professed" American literature without having read. How DID he find out so fast? Eric was one of the original "networkers", who didn't need the electronic one. In fact, no "superhighways" for Eric (though they would fascinate him as a cultural phenomenon) - rather byways and the byways of byways, from which "probes" he would return with gold, frankincence and a lot of less salubrious matter. (He fell upon that McLuhan "probe" idea with a vengeance.) I also recall telling Eric about the political machinations I was learning about when I went to work at the Council for National Awards. We walked endlessly up and down a tennis court at Bulmershe (as was), I think it was. He was so distressed at what I was telling him - "the bastards! the bastards! - that I found myself cheering HIM up. What good medicine. I believe that King's is having a service for Eric on Friday 3 March. Arnold Goldman University of Kent at Canterbury ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 18:28:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: Espousing Update 2/6 *Thanks* To Martin Spinelli for putting Senator Pressler's document before us in all its inquisitorial splendor. Perhaps we should be phoning his office and working through each of the questions with *his* staff? And also to Ted Pelton for forwarding his Jan 13 Op-Ed piece. I am impressed by Rep. Russ Feingold's position: he says what too few arts advocates are willing to say. It is true, as Ted points out, that editorials from "hometown" papers are often entered by the Representatives into the Congressional Record as an indication of how their constituents (are alleged to) feel. That Bob and Ted have both succeeded in placing their pieces is indeed encouraging. *San Diego* We spoke with Cole Heinowitz yesterday. She reports that plans are underway to invite Randy Cunningham to a "public forum" (hopefully to be held in Escondido) on the issue of federal arts funding. More specifics should be available after the next planning meeting, scheduled for a week from today. Anne Burt of LitNet will lend some assistance on this one, and we've tracked down some potential allies through our contacts as well. *February Art in America* Douglas Davis's "Multicultural Wars" is a good source for some background on the recent history of the Endowments. The piece is especially good at pinpointing the flaws in the "conciliatory strategy" adopted by many arts advocates in the past half-decade or so. Along with the *Voice* cover article of a week ago, this is great material to hand to someone who needs a rapid course in the shape this battle is taking. One snippet: "The paradox buried beneath the continuing muteness of the mainstream liberal-left is that even today's politically fraught contemporary art could be easily defended. Long ago, proponents of today's avant-gardists should have argued that this democracy, or any democracy worth its name, thrives on dissent" (37). *Center for the Study of Popular Culture* The president of the above right-wing organization, Larry Jarvick, has been participating on the "Screen" list-serv that I monitor now and then. As you know, Jarvick is a key member of the assassination squad being sent after the Arts and Public Broadcasting. If people want to appeal to whatever reason he possesses, his e-mail address is: LAJarvick@aol.com. *Copies of Flash Article* We faxed off a brief article about *FE* to Joyce Jenkins at Poetry Flash last night. As of yet, no confirmation that it will be run, but we should hear soon. In the meanwhile, if anyone would like a copy, drop us a note saying as much and we'll forward it to you via e-mail. That's it for now. Steve Evans and Jennifer Moxley 401-274-1306 new improved e-mail address: Steven_Evans@Brown.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 12:13:13 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: AWOL: Conference ******************************************************************************** AUSTRALIAN WRITING ONLINE is a small press distribution service which we hope will help Australian magazines, journals and publishers to reach a much wider audience through the internet. As a first step we will be posting information and subscription details for a number of magazines and publishers to a number of discussion groups and lists. We hope to build up a large emailing list which includes as many libraries as possible. If you know of a list or discussion group which you think might be worthwhile posting to or, if you would like to receive future postings, please contact AWOL directly on M.Roberts@unsw.edu.au. Please note that M.Roberts@unsw.edu.au is a temporary address until we set up our own address sometime this year ******************************************************************************** GRIFFITH UNIVERSITY/JAMES COOK UNIVERSITY QUEENSLAND STUDIES CENTRE ANNUAL CONFERENCE - 8-9 JULY _WAR'S END?_ August 1945 marked the end of the most harrowing and transforming collective experience in the history of modern Australia. How much of the 'old' Australia came to an end with the cessation of hostilities, and how much continued as before? What different meanings did the War's end have for different groups and institutions in Australian society? The Queensland Studies Centre will be holding its annual two-day conference, in association with the History Department of James Cook University, in Townsville, on 8-9 July of this year. Papers are invited which examine the myths and realities of the War's end - especially, though not exclusively, from the perspective of Queensland. The conference will be interdisciplinary in scope, embracing military, social and cultural history; politics and political economy; literary and cultural studies. Papers exploring any of the following aspects of the topic would be welcome: * literature and the arts * education and social policy * Aboriginal and ethnic communities * women's history * military and social history * politics and industrial relations * journalism and the media Venue: Townsville, Queensland. Date: 8-9 July, 1995. Deadlines: Offers of Papers: 31 March Abstracts of Papers: 2 June Expressions of interest should be forwarded to: The Queensland Studies Centre (Director, Patrick Buckridge) Faculty of Humanities Griffith University Nathan QLD 4111. Tel: (07) 85 5494 Fax: (07) 875 5511 E-mail: M.Gehde@hum.gu.edu.au Call for Papers ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 20:19:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carla Billitteri Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Dissension in the ranks > Subject: Dissension in the ranks as G1 set to discuss Buffalo > Copyright: 1999 by The Anti-Hegemony Project > Date: 1 Jun 99 15:15:15 EST > Priority: Dally > > Lines: 73 > > VANCOUVER (AHP) - Baby-Boomer poets of the United States > and their Canadian allies were at odds over the handling of a > rescue for Buffalo's Poetics Program as major players in Lang-Po > prepared to open talks on ways to bolster the world's poetics system. > The lessons from the Buffalo crisis will top the agenda of > a two-day meeting of poetics program ministers and central publishers > from the United States and Canada, as well as observers from Japan, > Germany, France, Britain and Italy starting with a dinner tomorrow > evening. > Some Canadians made it clear just hours before the talks > were set to begin that they were unhappy about how San Francisco > had rushed through a rescue package for Buffalo this week. > > ---More--- > > Group bleari.biz.poesy.g1 available: 12345 - 23456 unread: 567 > > article 22978 21-JUN-1999 33:24:36 > > > With Buffalo credibility and the New York State economy > plunging, President Silliman yesterday abandoned a plan to get > S.P.D. approval for book-loan guarantees but used his authority to > promise an undisclosed amount in aid from a little-known Lang-Po > theory stabilisation fund. > S.P.D. stands for Small Press Distribution, a program for > distributing subsistence-reading allotments to underdeveloped writing > centres. S.P.D. is partly funded by the National Endowment. > Silliman also announced that U.S. allies would contribute > a visitor-donation package for Buffalo through the French-based > Fondation Royaumont, and that the international Bureau of the > Atlantic would make its biggest-ever contribution to Buffalo of > Emmanuel Hocquard/Claude Royet-Journoud titles. > The Board of Directors of K.S.W. (the Kootenay School > of Writing), which is meant to be the guardian of the world's > poetics system, approved its share of the package this morning > and no country voted against it, diplomats said in San Francisco. > But in a rare show of diplomatic pique, at least five > Canadian and European poets expressed misgivings about the package. > > ---More--- > > Group bleari.biz.poesy.g1 available: 12345 - 23456 unread: 567 > > article 22978 21-JUN-1999 33:24:36 > > > Nanni Balestrini and Nicole Brossard indicated before the > K.S.W. board meeting that they wanted to abstain, as did Pierre > Joris, who chose to cast his vote as a Luxemburger. Other poets > rumoured to be on the fence included Steve McCaffery and Tom Raworth. > ``The Europeans and Canadians feel this particular > crisis is above all an American problem,'' said a senior Canadian > official, who declined to be named. > James Sherry, who delivered President Silliman's message, > suggested testily that George Bowering was the chief naysayer. > In another show of displeasure, Canadian nations had not > agreed on details of the financing being arranged through Segue, > which groups central publishers from some 33 cities. > The exact share-out among the central publishers of the > Segue loans to Buffalo was still under discussion as G1 prepared > to open their talks. > U.S. officials stressed that they had to act quickly > because they were convinced that Buffalo was in dire intellectual > straits. > U.S. Treasury Secretary Tom Mandel said today that > > ---More--- > > Group bleari.biz.poesy.g1 available: 12345 - 23456 unread: 567 > > article 22978 21-JUN-1999 33:24:36 > > > the Buffalo crisis highlighted the need to modernise international > poetics programs so that they have the capability to deal quickly > with problems posed by mushrooming G2 markets. > The run on Buffalo's ``New Spirit'' currency may not > be the last market scare to hit the world in a new age where a > million bandwidths are moved around the world instantly, K.S.W. > Managing Director Susan Clark said. > ``Let me say that this may be seen as the first major > crisis of our new world of globalized writing networks to have hit > a developing poetics program,'' Clark told a press conference in > Vancouver. > Poetics ministers are expected to discuss in Toronto > safeguards for early detection and prevention of a Buffalo-type > crisis. Clark said K.S.W. may need a new infusion of money from its > allies as a line of defence against such problems. > In addition to Buffalo, the G1 ministers will discuss the > state of world poetry. > Since they last met in Paris in October, the Chechnya war > has worsened the prospects for full scale Lang-Po investments in Russia, > > ---More--- > > Group bleari.biz.poesy.g1 available: 12345 - 23456 unread: 567 > > article 22978 21-JUN-1999 33:24:36 > > > Italy has been forced to increase spending for battered-poet > shelters after the return of fascism, while disinterest rates in > old-style avant-garde writing have risen in several countries, > including the United States, Canada and Britain. > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 19:21:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Spencer Selby Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary In-Reply-To: <199502042114.NAA24117@slip-1.slip.net> Art may be equipped to deal with "a man's total perception of relations," though probably not a woman's. Seriously, if you broaden the definition of theory to encompass this most hopeful, grandiose definition of art, then you've erased the difference between the two. Art may be able to do what theory or philosophy or other disciplines have failed to do. That is what Pound's statement means to me (and I don't care if that's not what he meant). Spencer Selby On Sat, 4 Feb 1995, eric pape wrote: > Pound: A work of art, any serious work vivifies a man's total perception > of relations. > Maybe we need to broaden our definition of theory to "a man's total > perception of relations." Just a thought, a gesture towards an imagined > point of opening. > Thanks, Eric (enpape.lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu) > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 19:29:19 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Spencer Selby Subject: Re: Spencer's gauntlet, etc. In-Reply-To: <199502060439.UAA20918@slip-1.slip.net> > On Thu, 2 Feb 1995, Spencer Selby wrote: > > > Poetry/art has its own level, and whatever it is or may be, it is not the > > same as theory or criticism or writers' discourses or internet exchanges. > > This view may strike some as extreme, simplistic or old-fashioned, but I > > think it's dangerous when artists or critics start saying (or building > > contexts in which) their discourse is on the same level as the art. > > > Why? > > Jeffrey Timmons > Because that tips the balance in the direction of domination. When explainers make such claims for their explanations, art is the loser. This doesn't have to be so, but this is what has happened over the past 50 years or so. The framing of art has gotten increasingly more attention than the art itself. It's gotten so people can't tell the difference any more. They can't just bring themselves to a work of art, they're so fascinated or intimidated by all the discourse that they've forgotten what it's like to just let the work speak to them--that is, if they ever knew. Spencer Selby ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 19:51:57 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Spencer Selby Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary In-Reply-To: <199502061917.LAA11721@slip-1.slip.net> Interesting point, though we all live here today, not in ancient Greece. The opposition or at least difference between theory and practice is real today, even if their relation was different then. Still, I do like yr addition of a new term to this discussion. I'm all for talking about the social conduct of writers, whether opposed to theory or not. (At the very least, it's a good source for humor, as is demonstrated by recent "news articles" sent to this forum.) Spencer Selby On Mon, 6 Feb 1995, James Sherry wrote: > In the original Greek use of the word theory, it was not opposed to > praxis but to doxa (orthodox), so that theory related to the conduct of > the individual life and doxa to social conduct and rites in society. > Ref: Habermas. I have an extensive discussion of this in Our Nuclear > Heritage where the concept of theoretical poetry is broached. > > James > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 23:46:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Martin Spinelli Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: questioning BIG BROTHER Folks, Here's a letter to send to Senator Pressler of South Dakota, chair of the Senate Commerce Committee that oversees funding to the CPB. The language is stilted as per convention--I want his staff to read it. The reasoning is from the 104th Congress, cut spending--it shows their contradiction in their own terms. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending American public broadcasting because I think it's brilliant. We have a long way to go before we gain the depth and diversity of the CBC, BBC, Rai Tre, etc. But it's the best we've got, and if the 104th has its way there will soon be nothing left to improve. Download the letter. Chop it. Change it. But please send it! --Martin Spinelli >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Senator Larry Pressler of South Dakota c/o U.S. Senate Washington, D.C. 20510 Senator Pressler: As a hard-working citizen, I am concerned about how my tax dollars are spent. I am even more concerned about returns on my tax investment in the Federal Government. I have recently read a report from the Reuter's about a letter you sent to the heads of the CPB, NPR, and PBS asking for financial information and predicting the inevitable commercialization of public broadcasting. You and your colleagues in the 104th Congress have been spending a disconcertingly large amount of time and resources in an attempt to convince Americans of the need to cut this infinitesimally small budget line (much less than one one- hundredth of one percent of the national budget) while ignoring potentially significant cuts in budget items that are no longer relevant or return nothing to citizens and communities. It appears that you are imprudently waging a costly ideological war at taxpayers' expense, and that cultural purification is more important to you and the new Congress than real reductions in spending. I have enclosed a list of questions enquiring into how you are spending my tax money. I would like you to answer them as soon as possible. I will distribute your responses to major South Dakota newspapers, internet groups serving South Dakota, and national media agencies. If I receive no response from you by 25 Feb. 1995 I will report your lack of willingness to answer a citizen's request to these media sources. Thank you for your prompt response. Sincerely, QUESTIONS (Please document all responses adequately, i.e. contracts, minutes of meetings, memos, research reports, etc.) 1. How much of your time have you spent trying to persuade the American people that real budget relief could be accomplished if the Corporation for Public Broadcasting was cut? a. What is the approximate cost to the American people of this expenditure of your time? b. Have you ever instructed your staff, also paid with tax dollars, to work in advocating cuts to public broadcasting and at what cost to the taxpayer? 1.) Are you aware that the salaries of yourself and your staff are paid for %100 with tax-payer dollars while only %14 of public broadcasters' salaries are paid with tax money? 2.) Are you working %86 harder to find programs to cut within your own office and Congress? If not, why not? c. Are you aware that funding to the CPB is only a tiny fraction of one percent of our national budget and cutting it in its entirety would do virtually nothing to alleviate budget pressure? If so, why are you spending so much time and energy trying to convince Americans it should be cut for the budget's sake? d. Are you intentionally misleading the American people about the virtually nil reduction in the budget cutting the CPB would cause? 2. Please supply an itemized list of all contributions of more than $250 your staff has made to all political organizations since your election. 3. Please supply a list of the name, religion, income and membership in any political extremist group (i.e. the NRA, Right to Life, Moral Majority, etc.) of everyone on your staff. 4. Do you believe tax money should be used to defend the First Amendment to the Constitution? a. Since public broadcasting is currently unlike commercial broadcasting in that is not merely billboard space for advertisers, how would commercial broadcasting, influenced and limited in form and content every ten to fifteen minutes by advertising, replace the unfettered information found on public broadcasting? b. Does "balance" and "objectivity" in journalism mean that equal time should be given to sides of issues proven empirically or factually false? 1.) Do you agree with Newt Gingrich's former appointee to the position of House Historian that courses on the Holocaust should include space for a legitimation of the Nazi rationale? 2.) Would your definition of "balance" include giving equal time to Holocaust revisionists in a discussion of World War II, Ku Klux Klan members in a discussion of the Civil Rights struggle, or cigarette manufactures in a discussion of cancer? c. Do you believe that whatever political party happens to be in power should be given oversight of any public medium? d. Do you believe that completely commercial media can be "balanced" and "objective" even though they have to protect the sources of their revenue, for-profit corporations? e. Do you believe that completely commercial media can report in a "balanced" fashion on things that might threaten their complete dominance, such as the unique value of public broadcasting, communication workers' labor talks, or the possible psychological damage or damage to families caused by persistent advertising? 5. Why was your meeting with Rupert Murdoch not opened to reporters? a. How much have Rupert Murdoch, his associates, and his employees donated to your political campaigns? b. Has Rupert Murdoch given any financial support or other resources to the campaign to convince Americans that budget problems would experience some relief if funding to the CPB was cut? c. Has Rupert Murdoch promised you further generosity should you manage to kill funding to the CPB? d. Were any of your staff at the meeting with Rupert Murdoch? If so, how much tax-payer money went to paying them while they were at the meeting? e. Do you plan to meet with any other media moguls in the near future to discuss the selling off of public broadcasting bandwidths? 6. How much time in legal council was spent writing the 170- question CPB demand for information and at what cost to the taxpayer? a. How much time do you estimate CPB employees will now have to spend answering this request and at what cost to the taxpayer? b. Do you feel this money was well spent? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 19:57:02 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Spencer Selby Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary In-Reply-To: <199502060152.RAA09644@slip-1.slip.net> Dear Tom, I don't doubt that you have much knowledge about spirit. We could discuss the three kinds of spirit in the Jewish intellectual tradition, only it would be a pretty one-sided discussion, since I don't know that much about yr tradition. Not that I'm not interested--but a more pertinent question might be: Why aren't Lew Daly and his fellow editors interested? Spencer Selby ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 22:50:08 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Brannen Subject: Re: apex of the m... Tom, This isn't the Pessoa poem you referenced, but another that seems not inappropriate: IF THEY WANT ME TO BE A MYSTIC, FINE. SO I'M A MYSTIC. If they want me to be a mystic, fine. So I'm a mystic. I'm a mystic, but only of the body. My soul is simple; it doesn't think. My mysticism consists in not desiring to know, In living without thinking about it. I don't know what Nature is; I sing it. I live on a hilltop In a solitary cabin. And that's what it's all about. (translated by Edwin Honig) Jonathan Brannen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 21:47:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: apex of the m... That last line of Pessoa's >And that's what it's all about. > > >(translated by Edwin Honig) > is why I always pass on Edwin Honig's translations. How can he NOT hear "The Hokey Pokey" in that syntax? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 00:01:07 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Brannen Subject: Re: apex of the m... Ron, Maybe he Honig had his finger in his ear instead of the air. I wondered the same thing Hokey Pokey-wise, but gambled something of the piece would transcend translation. transcendentally yours, Jonathan Brannen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 12:19:40 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "I.LIGHTMAN" Subject: Re: apex of the m... I agree with Ron Silliman about Edwin Honig's Pessoa - does anyone know Jonathan Griffin's translations - they do rare honour to the art. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 10:06:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: apex of the m... X-To: "I.LIGHTMAN" In-Reply-To: <199502070353.AA16979@panix2.panix.com> Barrett Watten's *Progress* is available from: Roof Books 303 E. 8th Street New York, NY 10009 Cost including postage is $7.50 and should be prepaid. Note to net: We tried to post a list of Roof Books, but who can read all that. If I.LIGHTMAN wants a book, he needs to be able to search for it in a larger list using an automated utility which we hope to be able to provide for all participating presses soon. By the end of the year anyway. Literacy & technology, James ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 10:12:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: questioning BIG BROTHER X-To: Martin Spinelli In-Reply-To: <199502070445.AA22784@panix2.panix.com> A fine questionnaire and very much to the point, but I wonder whether letters to the leaders of the opposition pay off as much as letters to our own representatives who may be vacillating about their constituents commitment to responsible government. Not that I know the answer to this question. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 10:31:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: apex of the m... ROn, yes, the Hokey Pokey, or the Kacky pataki ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 14:10:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Martin Spinelli Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: "our leaders" James, I too am at a loss. An exasperation compounded by feeling like I/we have no genuine representation in Washington or in Albany. Even the Democrats are saying, "Sure I love All Things Considered, sure public broadcasting is great, but these are tough times, and that means we have to cut the inessentials." Our Dems in New York, following the example of *their* Grand Poo-Bah of acquiescence Bill Clinton, have made it impossible to articulate any possible alternative by choosing to parrot all the erroneous assumptions of Newt and his ilk: you are taxed too much, government is too big, public broadcasting is elitist/"liberal", the poor--not decades of lunatic defense spending--are responsible for a crushing debt, etc. By failing to be critical of, and actually participating in this relentless stream of propaganda, they have made themselves part of the problem; but they may yet keep their jobs. I'm frustrated James. I really don't know what to do. You are certainly right, Democrats do need to know that we value public arts and public broadcasting; I've sent them a different letter. Feed me more ideas! --Martin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 12:43:31 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: eric pape Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 6 Feb 1995 19:21:58 -0800 from Total perception of relations implies to me, well, everything that informs the art. Certainly I'm not arguing, and I don't believe any- body is, that theory is somehow privileged over art, just that if it works, use it. If it doesn't, don't. But it does have some relevance to the creation of art? Are we genuinely saying that a poet's aesthetics, politics, economics, etc., don't inform the poem? Not that it should be mistaken for the poem, okay, but does it come from nowhere? That's all I'm asking, really, when I talk about the relations thing. I am interested, though, in the desire to keep poetry pure, clean of theory.... Listen, this is not an academic problem. This is a problem I face everyday when as I sit at my desk and my ideals about what poetry should be increasingly diverge with what I'm writing and I struggle to come to some resolution that never happens because it can't and that's what, to me, is interesting about writing. That I never write what I set out to write and am constantly surprised. So this question is very important to me and why I've been following the discussion with great interest at what I see as very important POVs are articulated. Thanks, Eric (enpape@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 14:12:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AA1464@ALBNYVMS.BITNET Subject: RAID ON POETICS PROGRAM Subject: Raid on Poetics Program Copyright: 1999 by The Anti-Hegemony Project Date: 31 Jul 99 18:00:00 PST Priority: Dogged Lines: 52 BOULDER, COLO. (AHP) -- A rumor long circulated through the city was finally confirmed today as Poetics Police disclosed their raid on a local religious school's ``Sapphic hierarchy.'' The p-cops moved quickly, seizing documents and arresting ringleaders. More specific details were not available at press time. Chief among the questions was just what a ``Sapphic hierarchy'' might be. Following the announcement, Boulder's Naropa Institute, the nation's first accredited Buddhist college, announced a severing of all ties with the famed Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics. ---More--- Group bleari.nooz.sex available: 1776 - 1860 unread: 8 article 1852 7-AUG-1999 00:00:00 Naropa's Board of Trustees insisted the decision had been made before the raid. The school's poetics program had long drawn criticism, but Naropa ignored the warnings, in part because of the stature of the Kerouac school, and partly because the poetry helped fund other programs. Named for famed alcoholic writer Jack Kerouac, the poetics program has long attracted a wide variety of writers committed to the school's permissive philosophy and multicultural agenda. Kerouac is principally remembered for inspiring the TV series Route 66. A Buddhist official speaking on condition of anonymity noted, ``Other colleges have football and basketball, we have poets ... and you know what trouble poets are.'' Anne Waldman, co-founder of the program, is suspected of organizing the Sapphists. Led away for questioning with colleague Andrew Schelling, she reportedly shouted, ``Yes! We're sure that some of our students have sex, sometimes with each other, it's good for them!'' Poet Jack Collom, called for a comment, said only, ``I don't ---More--- Group bleari.nooz.sex available: 1776 - 1850 unread: 8 article 1852 7-AUG-1999 00:00:00 know a thing. I was out with the boys shootin' pool and on my way home.'' Waldman's intern, Katie Yates, had just returned from a month-long meditation retreat. ``Great, just great,'' she told reporters, ``I go away for a few weeks and the whole thing falls apart ... maybe I'll go back to Albany.'' Followers of Naropa's history will recall earlier scandals. In the late 1970s, students were required to pose nude for photographs supposedly used in a study of meditation posture. Neighborhood residents are determined to see an end put to this controversial institution. Says Naropa neighbor Ni Kegap, ``I don't mind the all night partyin' ... it's those endless `oms' ... it just gets ugly after awhile ... they call it poetry but it doesn't rhyme and it doesn't make sense.'' A shaken Peter Lamborn Wilson appeared on the front steps of the school to quiet an angry crowd. ``Why can't we all just get along?'' wailed the normally mild-mannered Sufist. A tense moment occurred when players from the University of Colorado football team, which practices nearby, began heckling. ---More--- Group bleari.nooz.sex available: 1776 - 1850 unread: 8 article 1852 7-AUG-1999 00:00:00 ``Get out of here!'' shouted Allen Ginsberg. ``Nothing's happening ... go on home to your nobodaddies!'' ----- C O P Y R I G H T R E M I N D E R This and all articles in the bleari.* newsnet system are Copyright 1999 by the dreamweaver or informercial provider, licensed to The Anti-Hegemony Project for distribution. Except for articles in the diu newsgroup, only authorized poeticians and poetologists may access these articles. Any unauthorized access, reproduction or transmission is strictly prohibited. We offer a reward to the person who first provides us with information that helps stop those who distribute or receive our news feeds without authorization. Please send reports to reward@logic.of.snowflakes. Hints on use (and creation) of blaeri.* material can be found in the forthcoming manual version, _We Magazine 19_, which collects in print form vols. 1-20 of D.I.U. Send questions and requests to: D(escriptions) of an I(maginary) U(nivercity) P.O. Box 1503 Santa Cruz, CA 95061 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 15:06:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Re: apex of the m... / Roof Books In-Reply-To: <199502071508.KAA15465@terminus-est.acsu.buffalo.edu> from "James Sherry" at Feb 7, 95 10:06:38 am I have also added a couple of "press lists" to the Electronic Poetry Center (Roof included) which give lengthy lists of book titles. (The list for Sun & Moon is quite extensive.) They can be searched (in our system) with a /. But in any case, provide very interesting "charts" of what some presses have done. Loss > > Barrett Watten's *Progress* is available from: > > Roof Books > 303 E. 8th Street > New York, NY 10009 > > Cost including postage is $7.50 and should be prepaid. > > Note to net: We tried to post a list of Roof Books, but who can read all > that. If I.LIGHTMAN wants a book, he needs to be able to search for it in > a larger list using an automated utility which we hope to be able to > provide for all participating presses soon. By the end of the year anyway. > > Literacy & technology, > James > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 19:41:52 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Cockney Rhyming of the m . . . Hi Ron and Chris. Briefly, Kacky pataki is Hackney rhyming slang for Karnaki - a form of fast interlocking group guttural vocal music produced in the Belo-sur-Tsiribina (meaning Place Where One Must Not Dive) area of west coastal Madagascar. It sounds like Ketjak when described like that I know. I went there last year and recorded some. Does that mean that we have something in common? I beg to differ though. In actual fact Lowkey Bloakey (well I knew you wouldn't believe me so I had to seed you into reading this far before I told the truth) is Cockney rhyming slang for Okey-Dokey - a form of self-defense through amelioration practiced, mainly by men, and only in London's East End. These days of course the 'happy chappy'is mostly used as a sweetener for community theatre workshops. It's apparently so named after the classic fence-sitting posture advocated by Mathew Arnold in 1849 when writing to fellow poet Clough of the need: 'to begin with an idea of the world in order not to be prevailed over by the world's multitudinousness' a mantis which afflicts English poetry and its translations nay even unto this very day. Coherence is its essence. I haven't seen the apex yet that didn't harbour such. You're probably both right. cris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 16:29:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rae Armantrout Subject: Re: Espousing Update 2/6 Dear Steve, I'm afraid I can't fax you the article from the paper here in S.D. I don't have the equipment. I might mail it or bring it with me when I come East next week. What do you think? Love, Rae ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 21:10:18 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: The Housings of Parliament (a present time outs with its past) Hi. I've called for a decisive break with the past too. I tried to post it once before and only managed to preface an ammendment. And now I'm here as it were simply hoping to be present enough when one of these breaks with the past does call by as to attempt to either engage or represent its interests. This is a call for FAT TIME. Engagement with or without of the blah blah. ALERT BREATH. 'The Curse Of The Vernacular' or 'The Minutiae Of Preference', 'The Return of The Plague of The Dreams of The Undecided'. Ira raises issues of improvisation, of music, of body and voice - amongst (or between) others. Improvisation is the salt (Fame Is Not The Spur) of process to the materials of composition. Improvisation is not 'free' and they who suggest that it can be are spent. But I wouldn't suggest that the dues are what have to be paid for. Down traits of avoidance have developed which are certain - as to flurry with an -all-too-frequency mode of anxiety. Who Goes There Perimeters are the familiar policed. Recognisable slack has evolved through imitation of previously incisive strategies. Impro and Lang-po share the worst burden of flattery - as urgency worn second-hand. Many will have their own catelogues of denial in these respects. When Robert Grenier wrote "I HATE SPEECH" (his shout not mine) did he understand the irony that language writers would 'find' their voices by such turns? Impacting tectonics of playful curiosity, rigorous enquiry and specific discovery onto the dominant familial nodes of poetic formulation and circulation. Again paralleels (sic) with Impro. Now some 20 years on. Hardly surprising and highly desirable that impetus for re-alignment has come. Or - (gods) how do I love the mud on the boots far more than her boots itselfish? Those who know her work well will witness her circumnavigations of binary oppositions. G1 or G3. These roads are already furrows. Brows knit toward mind set. Please r e l e a s e e m. And then become political. Chance overcharacterised into exquisitely interfastening rather than threatening difference - sorry, deference. And then becomes political With the Upper and the Lower Houses intent on holding their poses sufficiently long as to be impressed on the minds of they who are cast as spectators - and a bright-eyed horde quietly transporting the gates to ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 21:50:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ted Pelton Subject: Re: questioning BIG BROTHER This is a fan letter for Martin Spinelli -- good work on Pressler questionnaire! Ted Pelton ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 01:53:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: Espousing 2/8 Before proceeding with this update (dealing mostly with legislative matters and the questions Martin Spinelli and James Sherry raised today about where to direct one's energies), I want to pose an open question to members of this list: would you (pl.) prefer that such postings migrate off-list or is it useful to have them appear here? The Poetics-list was an invaluable resource in the first rush of organizing *FE*, but as we settle into the weeks and months of ongoing activity, we are wary of trying the patience of those who don't much care about this particular struggle (perhaps especially those who log-in from non-U.S. sites). We could easily enough shift to cc-trees if continued use of this space doesn't seem appropriate. Jen and I will make a decision about this in the next week or two, based on whether any consensus emerges one way or the other on the list (though that would be a rare occasion). So let's hear it. *List of Bills in the House Pertaining to NEA/NEH/IMS* HR100 'Arts, Humanities, and Museums Amendments of 1995' A bill to authorize appropriations for fiscal years 1996 and 1997 to carry out the National Foundation on the Arts and Humanities Act of 1965, and the Museum Services Act. Introduced by Syndey Yates (D-Illinois) 1-4-95. Referred to Committee on Economic and Education Opportunities on 1-4-95. (I don't have sponsor information for this one, nor the date on which it was referred to Randy "Duke" Cunningham's Subcommittee.) HR 209: The 'Privatization of Art Act' A bill to amend the National Foundation on the Arts and the Humanities Act of 1965 to abolish the National Endowment for the Arts and the National Council on the Arts. Introduced by Phillip M. Crane (R-Illinois) on 1-4-95. Referred to Committee on Economic and Education Opportunities on 1-4-95. Referred to Subcommittee on Early Childhood, Youth, and Family on 1-25-95. Sponsors as of 2-1-95: Hurton, Chabot, Canady, Knollenberg, Coburn, Rohrabacher, Dornan, Norwood, Hankcock, Royce, Condit, Linder, Myrick, Johnson, Sam, Bartlett, Hunter, Stump, Doolittle, King, McKeon, Chrysler, Hayworth, Armey, Neumann, and Hostettler (25). HR 579: The 'Privatization of Humanities Act': A bill to amend the National Foundation on the Humanities and the Humanities Act of 1965 to abolish the National Endowment for the Arts and the National Council on the Humanities. Introduced by Hefley (R-Colorado), Crane, and Doolittle on 1-19-95. Referred to Committee on Economic and Education Opportunities on 1-19-95. Referred to Subcommittee on Early Childhood, Youth, and Family 2-1-95. Sponsors as of 2-6-95: Chrysler, Chabot, Hancock, Solomon, Neumann, and Chenoweth. *Who to Write: Dem or Them?* James Sherry wondered this morning (with reference to Martin Spinelli's wonderful retort to Pressler) "whether letters to the leaders of the opposition pay off as much as letters to our own representatives who may be vacillating about their constituents commitment to responsible government. Not that I know the answer to this question." I don't know the answer either, but I have been repeatedly told that even with consolidated support from Democrats, the NEA is extremely vulnerable. As Patrick A. Trueman (how do they all end up with names like that?) of the conservative Christian "American Family Association" told a reporter: "Of the 73 new Republican freshmen...probably 65 of them oppose NEA funding altogether" ("Opposing Interests Brace for a Culture Clash," by Jon Healey, _Congressional Quarterly Weekly Report_, 28 Jan 1995). The reporter goes on to cite two amendments proposed in 1994, one to eliminate NEA funding (105 votes short of passage) and one to slash its budget by 54% (86 votes short). Even allowing for the fact that Trueman is bragging,the post-Coup margin has become distressingly slim. The question is, as I think Ron pointed out vis-a-vis "Duke" in Escondido--how to make it *cost* these folks something if they oppose the NEA? Right now they just see *profits* (both symbolic and material) galore. There's little leverage given the current composition of the Congress, but the low voter turnout which is the dirty secret behind the so-called GOP "Mandate" makes 1996 a specter perhaps worth invoking. It's just a thought, and one predicated on the assumption (totally unproven) that the Backlash will itself produce the conditions for its own electoral demise in the next 18 months. *Wesleyan begins to organize* We got a call today from an undergraduate (Sr.) at Wesleyan who is just beginning to organize an event for Febrary 16th. Anyone with contacts in the writing scene on/around that campus is welcome to forward tips to him through us. Right now it looks as though the format will be a tight two-hour program of talks. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 02:56:27 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliot Katz Subject: PRESSLER QUESTIONNAIRE As they say on the FAN, I'm a first-time caller. Actually, I've only been on this list (& the internet) for a few weeks, and hadn't yet put in my two dimes' worth, both because of work deadlines and because I hadn't yet figured out how. Thought I'd take the time & energy to figure this listserv mechanism out now, out of a feeling that activists who are doing great work can always use a few words of thanks & support when they express feelings of exasperation. In response to Martin Spinelli, who wrote, "I too am at a loss. An exasperation compounded by feeling like I/we have no genuine representation in Washington or in Albany," I'd like to offer support & thanks for coming up with such an imaginative & inspiring tactic--the questionnaire to Pressler. (Actually, I've been totally impressed with all the great organizing work being done by dozens of you on this list around the NEA and CPB issues.) Re Martin's questions, it's a tough political & strategic question to figure out how best challenge both Republicans' Contract on America and Democrats' continuing shift to the right. In the long term, I think, it's going to take new progressive movement-building, both to pressure the potentially progressive Democrats into shifting toward the truly-democratic left and also to develop new alternative vehicles that are capable of winning more than once in a while. And I think we need *multi-issue* vehicles, since it *can* get pretty frustrating trying to fight these battles one issue/crisis at a time. (One of my main political projects these days is a New Jersey welfare rights group, called Solutions to End Poverty--welfare another topic on which both alleged-Republicans and so-called Democrats--esp. under Clinton--are pretty horrible.) Actually, I really think we need to help build a new third party, but that's a topic best left for another sleepless early morning. Meanwhile, we're left with this one-issue-at-a-time crisis-mode organizing, in which we can only do the best we can, as we simultaneously try to defeat the Republicans and try as much as possible to remove the new elephant snouts on the members of the donkey party. And Martin and others: please know that there are those of us out here listening and inspired--and, incidentally, sending out postcards--by your hard & creative work. By the way, have you contacted press (both major media & alternative media like Pacifica) with copies of your questionnaire to Pressler? I didn't see mention of that in your original note. Maybe having a poetry group calling a press conference with that questionnaire as a centerpiece? It's so imaginative I think media might pick it up & add to the pressure on Pressler (who, by the way, I've heard has already withdrawn some of his most intrusive questions to the CPB). Also, maybe send copies of questionnaire to other activist groups working on additional aspects of the Contract on America, to start building long-term alliances? In closing, quite an interesting basketball game down here in Central Jersey tonight, between Rutgers & University of Massachusetts, whose unusual half-time showstopper demonstration helps maintain my hope in young people's political determination and willingness to act. Thanks again. Sincerely, Eliot Katz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 07:11:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Perelman Subject: Re: Espousing 2/8 In-Reply-To: <199502080741.HAA20457@orion.sas.upenn.edu> from "Steve Evans" at Feb 8, 95 01:53:09 am Steve & Jen, My vote is for you to keep posting the news here. Bob Perelman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 09:03:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Espousing 2/8 In-Reply-To: <199502081211.HAA25300@sarah.albany.edu> from "Bob Perelman" at Feb 8, 95 07:11:00 am Keep espousing news on list. Pierre ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | He who wants to escape the world, translates it. Dept. of English | --Henri Michaux SUNY Albany | Albany NY 12222 | "Herman has taken to writing poetry. You tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | need not tell anyone, for you know how email: | such things get around." joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --Mrs. Melville in a letter to her mother. ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 09:28:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Lawrence Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Fake Infant Formula > Subject: Fake infant formula found in California, library says > Copyright: 1999 by The Anti-Hegemony Project > Date: 15 Mar 99 50:50:00 PST > > Lines: 31 > > SAN FRANCISCO (AHP) - Fake labels and contents for > Simulac infant formula were found on library shelves in northern > California, Lang-Po Laboratories GmbH, the maker of the formula, > announced late last night. > Labels have been placed on books that falsely say the > product contains Simulac paperback infant formula with irony, the > company said. > The books have been removed from library shelves and the > origin and quality of the substance in the books is unknown, > Lang-Po Labs, which made its discovery over the weekend, added. > The fake label reads ``Simulac with irony, paper'' with > the following titles printed on the spine: Progress, Odes of Roba > and Curve. > > ---More--- > > Group bleari.biz.poesy.food_for_thought available: 3 - 9 unread: 6 > > article 3 17-MAR-1999 19:20:21 > > > ``Parents should check the titles of any paperback infant > formula product that they may have at home that was borrowed > from the San Francisco State library or any bookstore in northern > California,'' Leslie Scalapino, senior vice president and president > of Lang-Po's Consumer Products Division, said in a statement. > Parents who discover they have fake books should return > them to the library or bookstore from which they were purchased, the > company said. > In addition to the title, the fake product can be > identified in the following ways: it has a clear syntax and the > powder in the book is pure white in color. The real product has > a green-colored syntax and the powder is creamy yellow in color. > Lang-Po Labs said there is no need for concern about other > Simulac infant formulas. > The U.S. Book and Tape Administration is attempting to > locate the source of the unregulated product, the company said. > Anyone with information on the source of tainting should > immediately contact the B.T.A. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 10:41:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: apex of the m... / Roof Books X-To: Loss Glazier In-Reply-To: <199502072111.AA08572@panix2.panix.com> Loss, Thank you for your work in this arena. Readers can now find their books with the EPC search function. I hope that readers who don't have access to the EPC will be able to do so soon. James On Tue, 7 Feb 1995, Loss Glazier wrote: > I have also added a couple of "press lists" to the Electronic Poetry > Center (Roof included) which give lengthy lists of book titles. (The > list for Sun & Moon is quite extensive.) They can be searched (in our > system) with a /. But in any case, provide very interesting "charts" > of what some presses have done. > Loss > > > > Barrett Watten's *Progress* is available from: > > > > Roof Books > > 303 E. 8th Street > > New York, NY 10009 > > > > Cost including postage is $7.50 and should be prepaid. > > > > Note to net: We tried to post a list of Roof Books, but who can read all > > that. If I.LIGHTMAN wants a book, he needs to be able to search for it in > > a larger list using an automated utility which we hope to be able to > > provide for all participating presses soon. By the end of the year anyway. > > > > Literacy & technology, > > James > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 11:03:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: Espousing 2/8 X-To: Steve Evans In-Reply-To: <199502080741.AA08353@panix2.panix.com> Seeing the issues raised on the server has a specific use to me in that I wonder what "poetic" issues are more primary. Granted this is an issue of organizing, but organizing is also the work of getting the right words together. If you take it offline, what is cc:trees? James ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 10:05:57 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: Arts and Sciences Dean's Office Subject: Re: Espousing 2/8 Steve & Jen, My vote too is for you to continue posting the news. Though I am one of the mostly silent ones on the net (principally due to the demands of my administrative office job), I often do end up forwarding pertinent info to various friends & activists. The questionairre to Pressler is, for example, a gem. We will have a NPR rep on campus later in the week, & she may be interested in some of what's going on. I also am in touch with one of our senator's legislative aides, and info provided through this discussion group has been very helpful. Hank Lazer ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 11:11:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary X-To: eric pape In-Reply-To: <199502080844.AA02173@panix.com> Every "poem" (every "fact" in fact) is imbued with and attached to a theoretical structure which both informs it and from which it does not separate except in the minds of those who would create a transparent simulacrum of reality where the pure is real. Fortunately these isolated realities are fiction although some use the possibility ot inform their misguided politics. We have poetries which are embossed with their cultures and some readers and even some writers pretend not to see that. Thoughts are not purer than bodies and poems are the products of both and as such do not exist in isolation, nor can they be distilled into a spirit, although some use the possibility to inform their misguided poetics. James ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 11:57:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Congratulations to TREE (TapRoot Electronic Edition) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Congratulations to Luigi-Bob Drake, editor of TREE (distributed through the Electronic Poetry Center) which was chosen as one of the ten best "E-Zines on the Internet" in _Online Access_, Feb. 95, p.25. As you may know, TREE reviews some pretty terrific print titles; it is great that news of TREE's efforts has been made public. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 12:15:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: Re: Espousing 2/8 To clarify the off-list alternative mentioned in Espousing Update 2/8: what we would do is build a group of names/e-addresses to be reached through the "cc" (copy to) function on our Eudora software. Awkwardly large "headers" are the downside of this option. Steve Evans >If you take it offline, what is cc:trees? > >James ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 11:51:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Espousing 2/8 Dear Steve and jennifer---Since I have no idea in hell what "cc trees" is, and value your postings immensely--I am for keeping on this line here. It is certainly not hogging up space that could be used better!! Just wanted to cast my vote---Best, Chris Stroffolino ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 11:59:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: freely espousing Steve--I'm glad to see perelman and joris and others agree with me as well about staying on the list with this. As for your internationalist objection, well, perhaps, those in England, Canada, Australia, etc. can also share with us there struggles...and who knows where this could go (in the face of MNC's etc.) Chris. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 11:51:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Espousing 2/8 keep posting info. to the list, please... joe amato ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 11:48:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rae Armantrout Subject: Re: Espousing 2/8 Steve and Jen, I think this is a good place for the Espousing news too. There seems to be room for a lot of stuff - why not this? Rae Armantrout ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 15:45:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Belle Gironda Subject: National Poeticare Debate Subject: Calls For Change Worry Seniors Copyright: 1999 by The Anti-Hegemony Project Date: 31 May 99 11:00:00 EST Lines: 73 WASHINGTON (AHP) -- Leaders of the Association of Poets in Retirement aren't quite sure what Apex Speaker Lew Daly has in mind with his call for rethinking Poeticare ``from the ground up.'' But what they've heard worries them. ``The speaker's proposal left me fully depressed,'' said Rae Armantrout of San Diego, Calif., a member of the APR's council of outspoken elders. ``He wants to scuttle Poeticare with some weasel words -- `radical transparency'.'' Other APR officials are more circumspect, but they, too, express anxiety. Anselm Hollo of Boulder, Colo., a retired punster and part-time versifier, said, ``Anytime you destroy something and you build from the ground up ... you're in trouble because you may lose some of the ---More--- Group bleari.nooz.aging available: 55 - 65 unread: -1 article 66 1-JUN-1999 23:59:59 good parts.'' ``I'm not saying Poeticare shouldn't be looked at and modifications shouldn't be made,'' added Hollo, chairman of Numerous Adequate Poets (NAP), which helps shape policy for the G1-endorsed APR. Poeticare is the shoe that hasn't dropped in the newly empowered ``Spirit'' majority's agenda for sweeping change. With Small Press Publishing still accorded sacred cow status by both parties, the costly Poeticare program is among the biggest and most tempting targets for title-trimmers and word-cutters. Daly called yesterday for a top-to-bottom review of Poeticare and its ``highly centralized bureaucratic structure offering one menu for everybody in a monopolistic manner.'' He appealed to G1 writers to help poeticians think through ``how we get to a better Poeticare system that actually works more extensively, that gives greater choices, and that is also socially more honest.'' He said later that the older poets should be able to join Happening Movements and Organizations (HMOs) to extend their careers, and use archive sales or choose other methods for ---More--- Group bleari.nooz.aging available: 55 - 65 unread: -1 article 66 1-JUN-1999 23:59:59 attracting attention to their work. While 10 percent of the G1 poets are enrolled voluntarily in HMOs, Poeticare remains a bastion of fee-for-service poetry. Individual arts organizations set fees for readings and regulate schedules, but the poets can utilize any series they wish, so long as the organization is willing to accept them. Jean Day, a retired G1 poet who spent her career as top manager of Small Press Distribution, likes the old system. ``I want fee for service (poetry). I want to be able to set my own agenda.'' But most younger poets now are in some form of managed care. If they want unrestricted access to readings and publishing, they have to pay more for it. State-funded Poetics Programs are rushing to push Poeticaid recipients -- the poor and the socially needy -- into managed care. A year ago, the APR looked to special issues of literary journals as a path for literary reform. That never materialized. Now it is girding for a fight just to protect what they have, despite President Bernstein's plea in last week's State of the Art address not to tap Poeticare to pay for G2's ``Contract with America.'' ---More--- Group bleari.nooz.aging available: 55 - 65 unread: -1 article 66 1-JUN-1999 23:59:59 ``There are things in the Poeticare system that clearly need work,'' said Jerry Rothenberg, the APR's executive director. ``I don't think Poeticare is going to remain the way it is forever, or that HMOs are going to sweep the nation.'' Sen. Juliana Spahr, Spir.-N.Y, reminded ``Lang-Po'' leaders that the Poeticare trust fund will go broke in seven years. ``We can't say something is off the board and is untouchable,'' said the Poetics Program's Labor and Human Resources Committee chair. She suggested that options for dealing with Poeticare's woes include basing Poeticare benefits on financial need and moving more of the G1 writers toward managed care. Daly and the chairpersons of the Apex Ways and Means and Commerce committees all support the idea of letting people spend their words crit-free to help accumulate intellectual capital. Bill Howe, policy director of the Center for the Study of Accelerated Aesthetics in Austin, said poetry IRAs have the potential to ``lead to a radical restructuring of the poetry world'' as writers gain more control over their career insurance dollars. Skeptics worry that such accounts would undermine the ---More--- Group bleari.nooz.aging available: 55 - 65 unread: -1 article 66 1-JUN-1999 23:59:59 concept of intellectual fair play and erode the principle that those 50 and older are entitled to a fair hearing from their antecedents. --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 14:54:05 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: eric pape Subject: Re: Espousing 2/8 In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 8 Feb 1995 11:51:49 -0500 from my vote is for keep FE on the list as well ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 17:42:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Martin Spinelli Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: CPB info-mail Folks, A genuine if cliched "Thanks for your support." I'm forwarding a message about where to e-mail for infomation about the threat to public broadcasting and what can be done. Martin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FR: WBFO - NPR News and Jazz RE: CPB Funding - On Line Tool Available Now A new tool is available now to help us communicate with listeners about the funding situation in Washington. You have no doubt heard about the discussions in Washington to eliminate funding for public broadcasting. Action is needed now. To voice your support for continued funding of public radio, send an e-mail to pub hyphen broad at american dot edu. Information will be e-mailed back to you on how to make your voice heard in Washington. That's pub hyphen broad at american dot edu.("pub-broad@american.edu") Now more than ever, it's critical to make your support of public radio known. Thank you. Public Radio International (PRI) and "Soundprint" have collaborated to create an automatic e-mail system that will provide listeners the information needed to create letters to congress. This Internet project builds on the capacities of the Soundprint Media Center and is 100% privately funded. Here is how it works. Listeners can send e-mail to the address "pub-broad@american.edu." A computer will field these messages and automatically send the listener back instructions on how to voice their support for public broadcasting in Washington. Listeners will receive a thank you, instructions, a list of congressional and house addresses (regular and e-mail), phone numbers and sample talking points for a letter. The instructions will encourage letters first, calls second and e-mail last. The need for quick action and personal stories will be highlighted. Listeners are warned NOT to simply forward the e-mail they get to Washington. This service will be in place for 90 days - through April 30, 1995. It may be extended at any time. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ WBFO-FM | If you have any questions or concerns, please feel free to 88.7 | direct them to David Benders at BFODAVID@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU FULL-SERVICE NPR | Please note that WBFO programming is subject to change. NEWS & JAZZ | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 10:11:28 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: Re: Espousing 2/8 >Steve & Jen, > >My vote is for you to keep posting the news here. > >Bob Perelman While the posts are of passing interest to me I end up deleting most them. While I don't mind continuing to receive them in this list I wonder whether it may not be more effective politically to create a list which includes cultural activists from all affected art forms.... Mark ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 10:17:15 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: Re: Espousing 2/8 >To clarify the off-list alternative mentioned in Espousing Update 2/8: what >we would do is build a group of names/e-addresses to be reached through the >"cc" (copy to) function on our Eudora software. Awkwardly large "headers" >are the downside of this option. > >Steve Evans > > >>If you take it offline, what is cc:trees? >> >>James If you use the "bcc" function you don't get large "headers" (or at least I don't on Eudora 14 for Mac). Mark ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 23:17:52 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Freely Espousing As one of the non U.S. sites on this list I'm all for keeping the freely espousing posting here too. The specifics of your struggle differ, yet:- I was directly involved in events at The Poetry Society in London 1977 through which petit bourgeouis bureaucrats and 'least line of resistance' cultural tsars hid under the skirts of an enquiry by a member of the House of Lords (Sir John Witt) designed in the words of Eric Mottram to finger the transatlantic influence of 'foreign poets' as 'a treacherous assault on British poetry'. This happened here under a Labour Government of MPs running ('three wheels on my wagon') scared towards re-election with the spectre of Thacherism blooming marge. The outcome effectively and resolutely closed the door on linguistically innovative poetries here, whether produced within Britain or abroad. The result - a lasting internal exile for several poets and a blinkered (or bycycle clipped) retrenchment into Little England for poetry (period) in these countries. The waters closed over so quickly as to enable Donald Hall to write in 1979 that 'the poetries of England and America have become discontinuous'. We abandoned the site of conflict in disgust and distaste, we resigned and opted for forms resistance which have yet to impinge sufficiently exquisitely onto the rewritten agenda as to need to be addressed. A recent crop of ironic Mottram obituaries in the national press revisit such sites by calling him perhaps the best known of the "unknown poets" here. I can still remember, with a chill, Lee Harwood being surprised that the powers of reaction within the British establishment didn't behave 'like gentlemen'. As a pre-phrasing of the words of Martin Spinelli on this list (6/2/95) we sat by and shrugged and we got what we deserved. The parellels don't seem too slender. I hope you don't berate these observations from afar. The sites of the formations of pernicious National and Cultural Identities are still sign and syntax. Prevent the hardening of the arteries within and without of the body-politic by intensifying engagement at those sites. Pressler sure knows what he's doing. From this distance, through networks such as Freely Espousing, it seems that there is an ability to respond being nurtured - a movement encouraged. I for one value that activity AS the poetry. thanks, cris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:46:17 GMT+1300 Reply-To: aloney@engnov1.auckland.ac.nz Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Loney Organization: University of Auckland English Dept Subject: Re: freely espousing X-To: LS0796%ALBNYVMS.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu Dear People this is, from a somewhat out-of-town Aucklander in New Zealand, to say that I'd like very much for the List to continue to espouse the Espousing. Apart from it overt interest, it is a salutary lesson for some of us here about how these part airwaves (are they 'airwaves? or is it just one of them pesky cliches that do ta so much of one's talk...) (er, no inferences being spread here abt others etc), placed at the service of such issues. About State arts funding in general, it's always clear that any administrative body (including my own) will make decisions that others will find legitimately questionable. The important point i whether the structure that initiates those acts of difference is worth retaining spite of the fact that it is always going to be imperfect according to any set o one might want to place alongside it. From here, it seems to me that the NEA discussion is absolutely appropriate, and already within those earlier posts in which questions were being (properly) asked about being a writer/being a citizen and is there any connection between them. So, I don't really think that my geographical distance from the location of the discussion can get to define how the discussion actually impinges upon my 'location' in the world, any more really than being across the other side the world from Bosnia or Northern Irelan does. Anything that can happen there can happen here. If it comes to one's notice, then it's there for one's noticing etc etc. Best wishes to all, Alan Lon aloney@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 17:28:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Spencer Selby Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary In-Reply-To: <199502081831.KAA01451@slip-1.slip.net> Dear James, I never said anything about "purity," nor did I say art does not reflect theory (along with all those other relations?) in some way. What I've been saying, or trying to say, is that art and theory are on different levels. In so far as it is a reply to me, your statement seems based upon exaggerating or misunderstanding what I have said, so that you can attack this transparent simulacrum strawman of yours. Again, I do not believe that art is pure. I'm not sure I believe that anything in our human world is pure. What I believe is that art and theory (or philosophy or politics or...) are not the same thing, that they are not on the same level. The figure of separate levels does not mean the levels are hermetically sealed from each other. I think it's interesting and maybe revealing that you (and in a different way, Eric) would assume or conclude this. Whatever that might mean, I don't have a need to get carried away with it. I'm inclined to think this is more than just an innocent misunderstanding between us, but I could be wrong. In the spirit of avoiding a contentious fight, I would like to add that I've been mulling over yr point about doxa ever since I read it and made my quick reply. The more I think about it the more I think it is quite relevant to our world here today. So I'm sorry if my response appeared to express more disagreement than appreciation for this thought. It may be that a significant opposition lurking beneath this discussion (and many others) is doxa. If so I wonder, how are we to distinguish this doxa from what it opposes? Spencer Selby On Wed, 8 Feb 1995, James Sherry wrote: > Every "poem" (every "fact" in fact) is imbued with and attached to a > theoretical structure which both informs it and from which it does not > separate except in the minds of those who would create a transparent > simulacrum of reality where the pure is real. Fortunately these isolated > realities are fiction although some use the possibility ot inform their > misguided politics. We have poetries which are embossed with their > cultures and some readers and even some writers pretend not to see that. > Thoughts are not purer than bodies and poems are the products of both and > as such do not exist in isolation, nor can they be distilled into a > spirit, although some use the possibility to inform their misguided > poetics. James > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 18:40:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Re- the real language po In-Reply-To: <199502051551.HAA04898@whistler.sfu.ca> from "Ron Silliman" at Feb 5, 95 07:48:03 am Dear Ron, Nah, my wife wouldnt even get a chance to play second base. I play second base, although in the past year or 2, when my back is really bad, I have been playing first. Hey. I wonder whether we can try to be walk-ons if Dole and that White-haired creep keep the strike going. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 18:46:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Fake Infant Formula In-Reply-To: <199502081458.GAA06254@whistler.sfu.ca> from "Nick Lawrence" at Feb 8, 95 09:28:10 am I was going to take some of them fake books back to the library, but then I thought what the hell, and fed them to my cats. Now one of my cats is iambic and the other is confessional. I dont know what to do. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 18:52:56 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: apex of the m... In-Reply-To: <199502070550.VAA16366@whistler.sfu.ca> from "Ron Silliman" at Feb 6, 95 09:47:47 pm In Erwin Swangaard's translation of Pessoa, the last line reads "What's it all about, Alfredo?" Now, I dont hear any hokey pokey in that. Just thought I'd put my left leg in. GB ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 01:02:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Phillips Subject: Re: Espousing 2/8 I've been working so much the last 3-4 weeks that I've stopped my ritual of picking up the morning paper. You really should continue with the "public" posts; this is my public broadcasting. Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 08:51:04 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Freely Espousing How about classic compromise, leave postings on this list and copy to another which, taking up Mark's point (and it's a good one) forges a broader alliance with artists in other forms of practice and can act as a forum for such dialogue. I'd want to subscribe to such a list as that too. cris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 01:43:18 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Spencer Selby Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary In-Reply-To: <199502080836.AAA29769@slip-1.slip.net> Dear Eric, Those who have a big investment in theory may be prejudiced in a direction which will impair their judgment about what does and doesn't work when it comes to creating or appreciating art. As I told James, I'm not advocating purity. The fact that you both think I am might indicate that you both have trouble stepping back from the discourse, that it's hard for you to hear someone who is simply saying art must have its level. Of course art doesn't come from nowhere. And of course it is inevitable that there will be all kinds of influences upon this art. To me this means we can free up our process as much as we see fit. A successful process is one that allows these influences to happen as they may, or as they may not. The guiding principle is whatever transports the work in and of itself. This will not happen if external influences or conscious intentions are too strong. This to me is the same as saying that art must be on its own level. This does not mean it's sealed off from anything. Spencer Selby ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 05:19:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: apex of the m... You wrote: > > ROn, yes, the Hokey Pokey, or the Kacky pataki > > I thought it was the Tacky Pataki ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 08:30:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary In-Reply-To: <9502081831.AA24193@jazz.epas.utoronto.ca> from "James Sherry" at Feb 8, 95 11:11:58 am > Every "poem" (every "fact" in fact) is imbued with and attached to a > theoretical structure which both informs it and from which it does not > separate except in the minds of those who would create a transparent > simulacrum of reality where the pure is real. Excuse me if I sound "misguided" (misguided? isn't that something that happens to lapsed catholics and neo-post-trots?), but I'm having a hard time with this. My (misguided?) understanding of "theories" is that people make them up to explain things. Hence the etymologiocal derivation from that whole Greek specular trip: to see (what's "behind" the veil). Mr. Sherry's formulation seems to imply that people write poems based on theories, rather than writing theories based on poems. This may be the way "Language poets" do it, but it hardly seems a necessary relation. Perhaps there's a confusion here between "theory" and "cosmology". Best, Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 05:56:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Espousing 2/8 I think that this is a terrific use of the Poetics List and should continue. But it is Totally Depressing to see Randy Cunningham's two closest buddies (Duncan Hunter and John Doolittle) as cosponsors of HR 209, the Privatization of Art Act Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 10:44:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary >>Mr. Sherry's formulation seems to imply that >>people write poems based on theories, >>rather than writing theories based on poems. I would agree that Mr. Sherry seems to be arguing a chicken before the egg thing. However, it's hard for me to really figure out which one comes first. I tend to side with the egg (poetry) these days, but I know from experience that I was only able to write what I consider *decent* work after I learned something about social theory and the history of art. I was basically a scientist until age 25, when I met Steve Evans and Jennifer Moxley. They showed me society. They showed me art. I would be interested to hear James talk out how he and others in the late 70's-early 80's *decided* to write Lang-Po. Did it come from Zukofsky, Barthes and Althusser? Did it come from a hatred of that Deer poem by Richard Wilbur (?) where he thinks hard for us all? Did it come consciously? Did it come from the radio? Did he just do it? The problem I feel now (at 35) though is that theory is getting in the way of creation. I worry too much about correctness, politcal, avante-garde, et al, to really create something interesting that isn't just a rehash of something I just did or someone else just did. Maybe it's just a case of the composition blues. I remember my composition teachers telling me that there were two steps to writing a paper: free writing / brainstorming and editing / revising. The two functions are supposedly controlled by different parts of the brain. I'm hinting at community formation as the bridge between theory and practice. Anyone want to play poker on Sun night? Bill Luoma ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 15:42:27 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Cockney Folk Dance X-To: Ron Silliman If we're going to get technical, it's the Hokey Cokey not Pokey. And now we're getting George going on about Michael Caine. Pessoa never wrote - What's Going On - surely. cris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 15:50:29 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: deified reams vs. nounless bloakabulary X-cc: Michael Boughn Hi. . . . . . . . . . every poem is a theory ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 11:46:15 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Alan Golding Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary In-Reply-To: note of 02/09/95 09:12 Associate Professor of English, U. of Louisville Phone: (502)-852-5918; e-mail: acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu Spencer's recent postings on the "level" of art reminded me of Oppen's lines from "Of Being Numerous": One must not come to feel that he [sic] has a thousand threads in his hands, He must somehow see the one thing; This is the level of art There are other levels But there is no other level of art In a reading late in life (I think NY, 1979, but I'm not positive) he reads this last line as "But this is the level of art." As regards George Bowering's locating of the Pessoa-in-translation line as "What's it all about, Alfredo"--so we've traded the Hokey Pokey for "What's It All About, Alfie" now? Alan Golding ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 13:18:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: refried nombres `every poem is a theory' is a theory & ``every poem is a theory' is a theory'is a theory &'& ```every poem is a theory' is a theory' & ``every poem is a theory' is a theory'' is a theory. & there are many more theories & '& there are many more theories' is a theory & '& '& there are are many more theories' is a theory' is a theory ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 15:12:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: deified reams vs. nounless bloakabulary In-Reply-To: <199502091643.LAA03523@sarah.albany.edu> from "cris cheek" at Feb 9, 95 03:50:29 pm Little Bob, my favorite frog worterbuch tells me that the _other_ meaning of the word "theorie",in French, via Greek "theo^ria" (procession) refers to a delegation of people sent by a city to a sacred occasion or to a great temple. By extension (1907) it came to mean "groups of people walking one behind the other." (Camus, for ex., has "des theories de femmes"). On the other hand, walking in a single line will be given by my dictionaire allemand as "im Gansemarch," i.e. goose-stepping. ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | He who wants to escape the world, translates it. Dept. of English | --Henri Michaux SUNY Albany | Albany NY 12222 | "Herman has taken to writing poetry. You tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | need not tell anyone, for you know how email: | such things get around." joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --Mrs. Melville in a letter to her mother. ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 09:19:21 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Cockney Folk Dance -- the Hokey Cokey not Pokey. You're so right, Chris Cheek, but "folk" do Adapt freely so that Pokey is Widespread now, probably on account of A confusion with the ice-cream flavour. The big question for poetology may be What do you do when it comes to The verse: "You put your right arm in...." & that Is where poetry and theory intersect. Is where poetry and theory intersect. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 15:40:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: FUNKHOUSER CHRISTOPH Subject: Birds Die Subject: Cambridge zoo birds die in fire as keeper gets drunk Copyright: 1995 by The Anti-Hegemony Project Date: 1 Jul 99 00:00:00 EST Lines: 12 LONDON (AHP) - Some 10 or 15 rare birds died last night in a Cambridge fire while their keeper was on a drinking binge to celebrate being named Poet Laureate to the English Crown. The fire, which broke out shortly after midnight in Gonville and Caius, raged through a shelter for rare breeds of swans, guinea fowl and peacocks for more than an hour before sleeping cricket players at a nearby college called the porter. ``The firemen said they came across the keeper staggering around his room,'' remarked the porter. ``Earlier that same day he had been heard shouting `I am Prin ... Prince Jay-Re-Me!' to no one in particular.'' No birds survived the blaze. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 09:51:11 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Espousing 2/8 Please go on Espousing on the list. The pressures on public spending on the arts are widespread and U.S. strategies/tactics may prove to be adaptable here in what C.Stroffolino calls "etc" Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 16:58:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary X-To: Michael Boughn In-Reply-To: <199502091338.AA11095@panix3.panix.com> Each poem has a theoretical basis whether it is acknowledged or not. Poetry and theory are separate but not separable and do not precede or follow each other. James On Thu, 9 Feb 1995, Michael Boughn wrote: > > Every "poem" (every "fact" in fact) is imbued with and attached to a > > theoretical structure which both informs it and from which it does not > > separate except in the minds of those who would create a transparent > > simulacrum of reality where the pure is real. > > Excuse me if I sound "misguided" (misguided? isn't that something that > happens to lapsed catholics and neo-post-trots?), but I'm having a > hard time with this. My (misguided?) understanding of "theories" is > that people make them up to explain things. Hence the etymologiocal > derivation from that whole Greek specular trip: to see (what's > "behind" the veil). Mr. Sherry's formulation seems to imply that people > write poems based on theories, rather than writing theories based on > poems. This may be the way "Language poets" do it, but it hardly seems > a necessary relation. Perhaps there's a confusion here between > "theory" and "cosmology". > > Best, > Mike > mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 17:07:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary X-To: Bill Luoma In-Reply-To: <199502091613.AA02164@panix3.panix.com> On Thu, 9 Feb 1995, Bill Luoma wrote: There is no such implication, but a misunderstanding of a more integrated relationship between theory and poetry in an attempt to keep them separate from each other which they are not. AND > >>Mr. Sherry's formulation seems to imply that > >>people write poems based on theories, > >>rather than writing theories based on poems. > > I would agree that Mr. Sherry seems to be arguing a chicken before the egg > thing. However, it's hard for me to really figure out which one comes first. > I tend to side with the egg (poetry) these days, but I know from experience > that I was only able to write what I consider *decent* work after I learned > something about social theory and the history of art. I was basically a > scientist until age 25, when I met Steve Evans and Jennifer Moxley. They > showed me society. They showed me art. > Alas, Bill I cannot show how anyone "decided" to write Lang-Po, since it was not decided and was not written. It has been perceived as having been written by those who wish to oversimplify the realities of what was written during that period down to this. Get a little subtle, please. Jmeas > I would be interested to hear James talk out how he and others in the late > 70's-early 80's *decided* to write Lang-Po. Did it come from Zukofsky, > Barthes and Althusser? Did it come from a hatred of that Deer poem by > Richard Wilbur (?) where he thinks hard for us all? Did it come consciously? > Did it come from the radio? Did he just do it? > > The problem I feel now (at 35) though is that theory is getting in the way of > creation. I worry too much about correctness, politcal, avante-garde, et al, > to really create something interesting that isn't just a rehash of something > I just did or someone else just did. Maybe it's just a case of the > composition blues. I remember my composition teachers telling me that there > were two steps to writing a paper: free writing / brainstorming and editing > / revising. The two functions are supposedly controlled by different parts > of the brain. > > I'm hinting at community formation as the bridge between theory and practice. > Anyone want to play poker on Sun night? > > Bill Luoma > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 23:37:25 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: refried dreams vs. downless somnabularies X-cc: Pierre Joris Pierre, am I reading you right? Re - every poem is a theory. Is it a pate and Golden Egg question you're raising? Or am I being cast (as Virgil saw himself ironically) 'to be a goose honking amongst tuneful swans'? Isn't Poetry inclusive of both speculation and practice - rather than practice opposing speculation? Melody - Rhythm and Noise? cris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 00:01:54 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Regimented jeans of the mau-mau X-To: Pierre Joris Pierre, I'm pretty tired and just typed poverty instead of poetry. Surely the One is sufficiently respectful of an Other as to not go walking in lines behind. I'm new to this space and am just realising its economy. cris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 21:19:34 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mn Center For Book Arts Subject: Re: Espousing 2/8 X-To: UB Poetics discussion group In-Reply-To: <2f38ed3761f0002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> By all means keep posting the news. I also hope it is all right to share and forward such news to others in the various communities. charles alexander ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 21:29:25 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mn Center For Book Arts Subject: Re: re if I did names vs. bound loess vocables X-To: UB Poetics discussion group In-Reply-To: <2f3a38730192008@maroon.tc.umn.edu> the ear he (or she) writes poetry theory rights for trees there, E, a poem charles alexander ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 20:44:48 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Cockney Folk Dance In-Reply-To: <199502100135.RAA03756@whistler.sfu.ca> from "Tony Green" at Feb 10, 95 09:19:21 am Well, I have never heard of "Hokey Cokey". It was "Hokey Pokey" a half century ago. And I have never heard of Pokey flavour ice cream. Maybe that is a New Zealand flavour. Derived from lanolin, maybe? I will be in Aukland tomorrow, and try to find some Pokey ice cream. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 20:49:36 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Birds Die In-Reply-To: <199502092125.NAA00610@whistler.sfu.ca> from "FUNKHOUSER CHRISTOPH" at Feb 9, 95 03:40:17 pm How did those sleeping cricket players call the porter? Were they having dreams that they were in a pub, and sonsequently called out "Porter!" in their sleep? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 20:55:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Cockney Folk Dance In-Reply-To: <199502091759.JAA00875@whistler.sfu.ca> from "cris cheek" at Feb 9, 95 03:42:27 pm Actually, in the Paul Blackburn translation, Pessoa's line reads: "Hey, what's happening?" But we remember that Paul liked a lively English version of everything. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 16:05:06 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: Re: Cockney Folk Dance >Well, I have never heard of "Hokey Cokey". It was "Hokey Pokey" a >half century ago. And I have never heard of Pokey flavour ice cream. >Maybe that is a New Zealand flavour. Derived from lanolin, maybe? I >will be in Aukland tomorrow, and try to find some Pokey ice cream. Well, there is 'New Zealand Ice Cream Company' shop in my local shopping centre and they have Hokey Pokey flavour. However there is a US based icecream/frozen yought company (Rollins? I can remeber its name) in Paddington and they have a flavour called "the orginal Hokey Pokey ice cream". Mark ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 23:13:55 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: eric pape Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 9 Feb 1995 01:43:18 -0800 from Spencer, I hear you. I really do, but I must ask finally, what is your definition of theory? It seems as if James and I are using a definition that calls for contextualization, and frankly, I think youre idea of theory is these names which form the heading for the discussion that, and I agree with you wholeheartedly, has gone on far too long. Art does have its level. I agree. But it also has a context, which I will call theoretical, and it is an act of violence that Shelley, Milton, Pound and even that most unintellectual of intellectual poets, O'Hara, would perhaps resent, to rip it from that context. My thing about purity was simply that it didn't seem to me that what we were saying here, or more precisely what Tom and others were saying since I did indeed butt-in, was all that "radical" or even particularly "theoretical." It just seemed sensible to me and I wondered why it bothered you. That's all. As for the academy: You scored a hit. I'm an academic, or a wanna be academic which shows you already the fool you're dealing with here, and I certainly have an interest in "complexifying matters." But, I'm a lot of other things too. None of which I can, or want, to seperate from my work, admittedly limited though it is. I think a lot of important issues are coming up. I think the reason we are not any closer to resolving them (and by the way I give you a great deal of credit personally Spencer for having the stamina to take on all comers) is that they cannot be resolved. I think it is from these tensions that the best work comes. Thanks, Eric (enpape@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 02:03:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: Espousing 2/9 Thanks to everyone who voiced an opinion on whether these updates should continue landing on the poetics-list. The current vote (including some back-channel communications) stands at 15-2 for continuing here. We've also gotten some good advice about how else to use the Net (especially from Sandra Braman). More as that develops. What follows is an especially long update (if you read nothing else, do at least check out "National Security Concerns," where a Jack Collum poem is credited with directly undermining the nation's armed services). We'll probably be off-line now until early next week as we travel to NYC for Jennifer's reading with Bill Luoma on Saturday at the Ear and Rae Armantrout/Lisa Jarnot/Lee Ann Brown's reading at Segue on Sunday. So: Good luck to Bob, Susan, and Gil in Philadelphia on Saturday! Steve Evans & Jennifer Moxley 1-401-274-1306 *********************************************************************** contents: -National Security Concerns- -HR 579- -House Subcommittee Timeline- -Back on 1/25- -Wesleyan Contact- -Christian Coalition- *National Security Concerns* The 7 February Congressional Record notes the following exchange between Georgia Republican Jack Kingston and Duncan Hunter (R-California): "Mr. Kingston: It is interesting, everybody does like to jump on the Pentagon, wasteful spending and talk about the $400 toilet seat and $200 hammer and so forth. We want to know about these things. We want to ferret it out. We think that is what the mission is about, defense of the country, survival of the country, and protecting your son or your daugher who may need to have the most high-technology airplane or tank or ship or whatever. Here is something that we, as taxpayers, your taxpayers in Californian and mine in Georgia, $30,000 on this poem. I am going to read this to you. 'Suddenly, masked hombres seized Petunia pig and made her into a sort of dense Jello. Somehow the texture, out of nowhere, produces a species of Atavistic anomie, a melancholy memory of good food.' It was written by Jack Collom of Boulder, Co. The National Endowment for the Arts awared $30,000 for that poem. And yet we are telling our American service personnel that they cannot get a raise. We are rolling the COLA's of veterans so that they cannot get what we contractually obligated to them. I have met in Hinesville, GA, service personnel who can qualify for food stamps and other public assistance benefits. Some of them are taking them, some are not. But it is very hard to tell somebody who is on his way to Haiti, Somalia, Bosnia, wherever, we have got $30,000 for poems like this and your tax dollars are paying for it. I think one of the things that we are about in the Congress right now is to go back and try to find things like this so we can spend our dollars smarter, cut where we need to. But where we are going to spend, let us spend appropriately. Mr. Hunter: I think the description of the expenditures that were made by the National Endowment for the Arts are one thing that would lower the morale of our service people if they knew that that was keeping them from having a higher quality of life." (Congressional Record, 7 Feb 95: H1360. The CR for 7 Feb also records some remarks, made in the context of the Balanced Budget Amendment debate, by Arkansas Democratic Senator Dale Bumpers that are strongly CPB/NEA/NEH. Cf. S2243.) *HR 579* Another sponsor has added their name to Hefley's bill (The 'Privatization of Humanities Act,'): California Republican Dana Rohrabacher (2-8-95). *House Subcommittee Timeline* When I spoke to the Subcommittee on Early Childhood, Youth and Families yesterday, I was told that nothing pertaining to the NEA/NEH will be considered within the next two weeks. You can call 1-202-226-2026 for recorded information about the SubCom's schedule (release one week at a time I believe). *Back on 1/25* Speaking with CD Wright (who was instrumental in organizing FE-Providence) over the past two days, I realize that we never mentioned an event that took place in Wilmington NC on 25 January. Through the help of Deborah Luster (a photographer) and Michael Luster (a folklorist), an already-scheduled reading by Mark Strand was linked to *FE* and to the defense of federal arts funding more generally. CD reports that 800 people attended that reading. Strand apparently addressed the crisis and tons of LitNet postcard-kits and other valuable information was distributed. *Wesleyan Contact* I omitted AJ Weissbard's name from yesterday's update about plans for a Feb 16th event at Wesleyan. Speakers will likely include RISD President (and *FE* 1/28 alum) Roger Mandle and George White of the Eugene O'Neill Theater. White is also one of three people behind "Americans United to Save the Arts and Humanities," which--from what we gather--targets the wealthier Arts advocates ($1,000 is the ante they're asking from their supporters). *Christian Coalition* A report on the Christian Coalition, posted to various lists in the past few weeks, just reached us. The report originated with Amy T. Goodloe (agoodloe@netcom.com). We reproduce it here. ">Quoting Rex Bennett to All: >1/14/95 >......... >According to Ralph Reed, Director of the Christian Coalition, the religious >right is going to use Newt Gingrich, Bob Dole, and the new wave of right wing >victories in a major attempt to seize power for the Christian Coalition and >other christian groups. He is asking members of his 1.5 million group to ease >off abortion issues for a while and direct all their energies to achieving a >major stranglehold on government through right wing legislation. >Their strategy is to replace government with organized religion where ever >possible. One major objective is to weaken non-right wing media availability >by undermining the public broadcasting networks while funneling government >taxes into religious coffers, and thereby increasing the propaganda and >control potential for the religious right. Reed says that Gingrich's 10-point >Contract With America is the perfect plan for achieving this and that he >intends to rally the full strength of his organization and its members to >pressure congressmen to pass the legislation required. >Public Broadcasting does not promote christian values and is too humanistic in >nature according to Reed. The wide availability of science programming also >weakens religious faith. The presentation by public broadcasting of social and >cultural information on those not in the religious mainstream confuses the >public and leads them away from the church and true christian values. Reed >says that he wants religious programming to place its own imprint on the >public knowledge base and that the recent Republican victories have given him >"faith that they can attain what they have always sought, a sense of >legitimacy, and a voice in the conversation the we call democracy." >Besides the elimination of public broadcasting, Reed stated that it is crucial >to gain control of education and school systems by using tax dollars to >underwrite their efforts. He wants to abolish the Education Department and >give states grants for scholarships or vouchers for public or private schools >including religious institutions. He indicates this is where their real >efforts will pay off and will cause a massive influx of capital into the >christian network. Every effort will be made to replace inefficient public >schools with more effective private ones, and that means primarily religious >organizations since they already have the structure and the power to do so. >Profitability will allow the christian network to enlarge and expand religious >programming on television and radio as well as in the print media. He also >wants to reinstate public prayer in all public schools. >Reed says that it is crucial that they abolish funding for the Legal Services >Corp. since they represent an alternative power base for the poor. Reed said >that the proper place for the poor to seek help is in the church. He also said >that the Legal Services Corp. has helped poor people with over 200,000 >divorces annually. He wants divorce to be far more difficult to attain and >would like to see it made expensive. >Reed says that we must "dismantle the federal welfare system and shift >responsibility for the poor back to the church." Public welfare has made poor >people too independent of organized religion, and he feels that this is not >healthy. He says "the poor should be dependent on God and not the state." >Reed claims that Newt Gingrich's Contract With America is a god- send that >will take power away from the state and give it back to the church where it >belongs. This is the opportunity that they have been waiting for and he >indicates that his membership must bring all the power and influence that they >can to force passage of the republican contract. >He says that his organization plans to pressure every congressman and senator >and that they will launch a massive public media campaign in favor of passage. >"We want to pull everyone in that we can." >--------------------------------------------------------------- >This information needs to be disseminated widely. Everyone should be informed >about what is about to take place. Please distribute this on every net >including internet where possible. Public knowledge of matters and events >regarding vital economic, educational, scientific, and communication freedoms >are of interest to everyone. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 02:29:36 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Spencer Selby Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary In-Reply-To: <199502091933.LAA26438@slip-1.slip.net> Dear Alan, Thank you for your post on Oppen. I hadn't connected my statements to him (or anyone else) consciously. But it's nice to know, or be reminded, that someone of his importance had a view of art which is similar to mine. It seems to me that my position is somewhat basic. Not that I think everyone will or could agree with me. Since I have made most of my statements in dissent, I could hardly think that. But I do believe that I am not the only one who has been bothered by the dominance of some who hold differing views. Spencer Selby On Thu, 9 Feb 1995, Alan Golding wrote: > Associate Professor of English, U. of Louisville > Phone: (502)-852-5918; e-mail: acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu > > Spencer's recent postings on the "level" of art reminded me of Oppen's lines > from "Of Being Numerous": > > One must not come to feel that he [sic] has a thousand threads in his hands, > He must somehow see the one thing; This is the level of art There are other > levels But there is no other level of art > > In a reading late in life (I think NY, 1979, but I'm not positive) he reads > this last line as "But this is the level of art." > > As regards George Bowering's locating of the Pessoa-in-translation line as > "What's it all about, Alfredo"--so we've traded the Hokey Pokey for "What's It > All About, Alfie" now? > > Alan Golding > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 02:33:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Spencer Selby Subject: Re: deified reams vs. nounless bloakabulary In-Reply-To: <199502091745.JAA17029@slip-1.slip.net> I agree that every poem (and work of art) may be viewed as a theory. Considering my recent statements, it may come as no surprise that I trust this form of theory the most. Spencer Selby On Thu, 9 Feb 1995, cris cheek wrote: > Hi. . . . . . . . . . every poem is a theory > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 08:22:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: deified theories and unfounded vocabularies In-Reply-To: <9502100209.AA27761@jazz.epas.utoronto.ca> from "James Sherry" at Feb 9, 95 04:58:37 pm > > Each poem has a theoretical basis whether it is acknowledged or not. > Poetry and theory are separate but not separable and do not precede or > follow each other. James > This sounds a bit like There is a God whether He is acknowledged or not. Amen. (Yikes! Shades of the M'ers creeping into the L-space.) It does make it kind of hard to have a conversation, though, when one side knows the truth. Or is all that just a theory you made up? Best, Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 08:48:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary O poeta e em fingidor. Finge tao completamente Que chega afingir que e dor A dor que deveras sente. E os que leem o que escreve, Na dor lida sentem bem, Nao as duas que ele teve, Mas so a que eles nao tem. E assim nas calhas de roda Gira, a entreter a razao Esse comboio de corda Que se chama coracao. Fernando Pessoa (lots of accents I cdn't include) The poet is a faker. Fakes it so completely, Even to faking what he suffers, The pain he really feels. And we who who read what he writes Fully feel that pain Not that doubled pain, not his But another he never had. So, round on its tracks It goes, to entertain the reason, This little train, all wound-up We call the heart. The poem is called Autopsicografia. Tom Mandel ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 09:00:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: apex of the m... Ron, Honig is not very good, it's true. A later edition of his Pessoa selected involves another translation (whose name, I don't recall), and she's not much of an improvement. Tehre's a small volume by James Greene and Clara de Azevado Mafra, but it suffers from Greene's usual lugubrious _sensitivity_. Jonathon Griffin has done some Pessoa quite well, yet, published in England, these are not always easily available, tho I think SPD carries something. A young poet and translator, Richard Zenith, an American living in Lisbon, has done some much better Pessoa; in particular _The Book of Disquiet_ - the long prose _meditation_ by P.'s semi-heteronym whose moniker I can't recall (i.e. not Reis, Caiero or de Campos). Again, not widely available. tom ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 09:08:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: Espousing 2/8 Yes, let learn espousing right here. tom mandel ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 09:18:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary Re: James Sherry's: "Every "poem" (every "fact" in fact) is imbued with and attached to a theoretical structure which both informs it and from which it does not separate except in the minds of those who would create a transparent simulacrum of reality where the pure is real. Fortunately these isolated realities are fiction although some use the possibility ot inform their misguided politics. We have poetries which are embossed with their cultures and some readers and even some writers pretend not to see that. Thoughts are not purer than bodies and poems are the products of both and as such do not exist in isolation, nor can they be distilled into a spirit, although some use the possibility to inform their misguided poetics." True words, and I'd like to hear more. What James calls a "theoretical structure," does he (do you) mean at once a cultural structure (simply, you cannot separate e.g. Pessoa from the dying Portugese ex-colonial culture), inasmuch as (obviously) everyone inhabits a culture and com- plexly writes within it, and (also at once) an ideological structure? Do all poets write, on the other hand, from within an ideology? Or maybe that's better put, are all cultures ideological? Also, the following phrases in James contribution above; "a theoretical structure which both informs it and from which it does not separate," now there's a further claim, and one which is interesting, radical, and with which I think I might disagree, tho I'm not sure we'd be meaning the same thing. In other words, is there no sense in which a work departs its origins? A person, does a person depart his/her origins? How does culture change, in other words? And, do poets have a function in that change? (e.g. Pessoa took that milieu and moved it somewhere, in his work, and, by intention and influence, in his readers) I'm interested in these questions. Tom Mandel ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 09:38:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Modern British Poetry (Electronic) ___________________________________________________________________ I have placed a new link in the "Resources" section of the EPC to a site for modern British poetry (via Poetry London). Some interesting material here. Also note that an informational hook to the Basil Bunting Research Centre has been placed in the "Authors" area, for those who might need this info. ____ ____ ____ / / / / / / EEEE PPPPP CCCCC EE / PP PP CC C/ EEE PPPPP CC / URL=gopher://writing.upenn.edu/11/ __EE /_ PP |__ CC C ____ / EEEE/ PP/ CCCCC/ / internet/library/e-journals/ub/rift /__________________________/ |--------------------------| | Electronic Poetry Center | |__________________________| ___________________________________________________________________ +++++++++++++++++++++++++__E__P__C__+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Loss Glazier & Kenneth Sherwood in collab. with Charles Bernstein lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu _or_ e-poetry@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu Subscriptions to RIF/T at the e-poetry address ___________________________________________________________________ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 10:30:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carla Billitteri Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: TODAY IN HISTORY > Subject: Today In History [Feb 10] > Copyright: 1999 by The Anti-Hegemony Project > Date: 9 Feb 99 01:02:03 EST > > Lines: 39 > > Today is Feb. 10, the 41st day of 1999. There are 324 days > left in the year. > Today's Highlight in History: > On Feb. 10, 1964, Frank O'Hara's U.N. informant ``Deep > Throat'' passed secret information on the value of political > poetry. O'Hara, fearful of discovery, swallowed the message before > reading. > On this date: > In 1862, Edward Dickinson ordered bulk linen for his two > daughters, hoping to save money. He asked Emily what color or pattern > she might want, but the poet, busy at her desk, said only, ``I don't > care ... anything ... something light.'' > In 1890, Algernon Charles Swinburne petitioned Queen Victoria > > ---More-- > > Group bleari.poesy.history_today available: 35 - 41 unread: 0 > > article 41 9-FEB-1999 23:23:23 > > > for patronage. He hoped to realize a new kind of poetry recital. His > ultimate dream was ``to place sweet potatoes up the arse'' before an > audience in London. > In 1936, Ezra Pound wrote Duke Ellington suggesting a jazz > arrangement of the Horst Wessel Lied. > In 1947, Pablo Neruda wrote ``Ode on a Stubbed Toe.'' > In 1962, Pier Paolo Pasolini offered Fabian the role of > Christ in a film based on the gospel of Matthew. > In 1975, Yevgeny Yevtushenko got into a fight with Joan Baez > and left the Rolling Thunder tour in Des Moines. > Ten years ago: Kit Robinson bought a refrigerator with > built in ice-cube dispenser. > Five years ago: Michael Palmer, suffering from insomnia, > stayed up all night measuring his work against the classics. As > daylight hit he discovered a poem exactly the same length as > Eliot's `Waste-Land.'' Ruler in hand, he dialed Clark Coolidge, > who didn't answer. Unbeknownst to Palmer, the ring had broken > his old friend out of a trance. For several hours, Coolidge stared > motionless at a bust of Beethoven, while a cigarette that fell > > > ---More--- > > Group bleari.poesy.history_today available: 35 - 41 unread: 0 > > article 41 10-FEB-1991 23:23:23 > > > from slack mouth burned the only copy of ``The Schroeder Text,'' > a 200-page manuscript. The call probably saved Coolidge's life. > One year ago: Quebecois poets announced the secession of > Francophone writing from Canlit. > Thought for Today: ``Many excellent words are ruined by too > definite a knowledge of their meaning.'' -- Aline Kilmer, American > poet (1888-1941). > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 16:22:58 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Hackney Cockney X-To: George Bowering By George, you'll have to take it from the dray's mouth - it's called the Hokey Cokey. I lived in London for too long to get that wrong. The Cokey is of course an abbreviation from Cockney. Curious how translation works. Next I'll be reading here that Pessoa has been credited with the script for What's New Pussycat? Title music by Tom Jones (welsh hairy chested medallion belter enjoying re-cred comeback - rather than lead character from picaresque english novel). Does 'O Sole Mia' refer to Woody's ex? cris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 12:08:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Marshall H. Reese" Subject: Arts Wire Post:NEA News "CONTRACT WITH AMERICA" VS. THE ARTS U.S. House Speaker Gingrich and his allies have made clear in the first days of the 104th Congress their intention to zero-out funding for federally-supported cultural programs. It is likely to prove a long and protracted battle, with the greatest threat to the National Endowment for the Arts (NEA), the National Endowment for the Humanities (NEH), and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting (CPB) coming from attempts to pass the "Contract with America." In order to finance the tax cuts proposed in the "Contract, " House Speaker Gingrich has recommended slashing funding for the arts, humanities and public broadcasting. According to a recent action alert circulated by People for the American Way, cultural funding is not simply being targeted as part of an effort to balance the budget, but it is part of a political payback to the Religious Right for their support in last November's election. People For asserts that the call for defunding the cultural agencies is ideological, that these agencies have for several years now been under attack for funding works which the Religious Right finds objectionable and that this latest assault is merely a new packaging of the same agenda, aimed at achieving the same end -- the silencing of those voices the Far Right finds objectionable. The legislative battle will take place over a series of months during the first half of 1995, with critical votes taking place in several different committees, as well as on the floor of the House and Senate. According to People For the American Way, political pressure from the grassroots must begin immediately, otherwise the arts may not make it to the second round of this fight. House Speaker Gingrich's pledge to consider the "Contract" in the first hundred days is is being understood by arts advocates nationwide to mean that a Budget Committee proposal will make its way to the floor of the House of Representatives by late March or early April. Sources suggest that efforts to eliminate cultural funding are likely to be incremental, with a multi-year phasing out of federal support for NEA, NEH and CPB. Soon after Congress takes action on the "Contract," the House of Representatives will begin its annual appropriations process. As the Appropriations Committee considers funding levels for the NEA, NEH and CPB, they are expected to be urged by Republican leadership to recommend funding amounts which reflect the "Contract." The House Appropriations Bill will make its way to the House floor by mid-summer, with the Senate following suit in late summer or early fall. In addition to providing funding for the three agencies, this year Congress must also reauthorize the NEA, NEH and CPB. Both House Appropriations Chair Livingston (R-LA) and Senate Appropriations Chair Hatfield (R-OR) have indicated that unless the agencies are reauthorized, they will be unwilling to recommend any future funding. Senators Kassebaum and Jeffords have indicated a strong interest in moving quickly in the Senate on NEA reauthorization. The first hearing before the Senate Labor and Human Resources Committee took place on January 24th, with NEA chair Jane Alexander testifying. Additional hearings and mark-up are expected in mid-February and early March. Senator Pressler, who chairs the Senate Commerce Committee and is responsible for reauthorizing the CPB, has indicated his interest in conducting hearings early in the legislative session on the future of public broadcasting. Senator Pressler has already publicly indicated his strong interest in eliminating the CPB altogether. Congressional hearings on the arts and humanities have been scheduled for the following dates and are subject to change: Week of Feb. 13 - Senate Education, Arts & Humanities Subcommittee, Sen. James Jeffords (R-VT), chair Public NEA witnesses; NEH and IMS Administration and public witnesses Feb. 16, 10:00 am - House Interior Appropriations Subcommittee (oversight hearing), Rep. Ralph Regula (R-OH), chair Witnesses: Walter Cronkite, Ken Burns and David McCullough March 1, 9:30 am - Senate Interior Appropriations Subcommittee, Dirksen 192, Rep. Slade Gorton (R-WA), chair Witnesses: Sheldon Hackney and Jane Alexander March 3 - House Interior Appropriations Subcommittee (FY96 funding), Rep. Ralph Regula (R-OH), chair Subject: National Gallery of Art and Kennedy Center March 21 - House Interior Appropriatons Subcommittee (FY96 funding), Rep. Ralph Regula (R-OH), chair Subject: NEH and IMS April 5 - House Interior Appropriations Subcommittee (FY96 funding), Rep. Ralph Regula (R-OH), chair Subject: NEA House Budget Committee [Rep. John Kasich (R-OH), chair] field hearings to solicit the views of Americans on how to cut the federal budget are scheduled as follows: Feb. 4 - Columbia, SC, Airport High School Gym, 2:00pm Feb. 11 - Manville, NJ, VFW Post 2290 Meeting Hall, 1:00 pm Feb. 18 - Billings, MT, Rocky Mountain College Gym, 2:00 pm The House Appropriations Committee is expected to draft a rescissions bill in middle or late February, with cuts in current FY95 funding. The House Budget Committee expects to draft its FY96 budget resolution by February 9 or 10. Further information available on Arts Wire .......................................................................... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 12:51:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marc Nasdor Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary Eric writes: > ...and it is an act of violence that Shelley, Milton, Pound and > even that most unintellectual of intellectual poets, O'Hara, > would perhaps resent, to rip it from that context. An act of *violence*? Eric, get a life! While I agree with the rest of your posting, the use of the word "violence" in relation to poetry seems out of place. To whom is such violence directed. I say "whom" because the term is large enough to burst through the relatively insular worlds of poetry, theory, and any other academic discourse. People who have experienced real violence must react to your statement with puzzlement, to say the least. Regards, Marc Nasdor Nasdor@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 12:45:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary Well, at least no one has combined "Alfie" with the sheryy chicken-- egg question in a culinary way so as to make chicken alfredo and I still think a musical comedy version of Beowulf with Bachrach tunes would be a way to set up a privatized fund for poetry as it were to the tune of Alfie "I could build a big MEAD HALL" and "What's UP, Grendel's MOM,wo wo wo wo..." as in rock and roll middle school... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 14:29:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Charles A. Baldwin" Subject: this also needs to be posted (fwd) Subject: Child-Saving Hero Disputed Copyright: 1999 by The Anti-Hegemony Project Date: 1 Apr 99 00:00:00 EST Lines: 23 BUFFALO (AHP) -- The day _apex of the M_'s headquarters went up in flames, a bystander caught three of the children as they were thrown from an upper-story window. But just who that man was is in dispute, and the Office of Monitored Sophistry doesn't know who should get a commendation for helping save the children. Four men and a woman have stepped forward, claiming to be the one who caught the children Mar. 15 and carried them to safety. A fourth child, who jumped from the window after throwing the others, was hospitalized. One of the men, Charles Bernstein, a 45-year-old migrant worker, said he even has a blister, a burn mark and a suit that smells like smoke to prove his story. The Sophist's office plans to honor someone, they just don't know who, said Marjorie Perloff, a spokeswoman for the Monitors. Another spokesman, Tom Mandel, suggested a bakeoff for determining the hero, but this suggestion was rejected out of hand. In any case, the injured child, Pam Rehm, will receive an award when she is released from the hospital, where she is recovering from burns over 40 percent of her body and scorched lungs. The other children ---More--- Group bleari.controversy.bs available: 666 - 1776 unread: 1110 article 666 31-DEC-1999 23:59:59.00 escaped with minor bruises. The children are all twentysomething. ``It's not really important,'' who caught the youngsters, Perloff said. ``Believe me, I don't think nothing of it, as long as the children are safe.'' ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 14:25:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Funk Subject: D I U 2 1 / *EXTENSIVE POST* D (eskryptions) (of an) I (maginary) U (nivercity) 21 II, I vol 2, no 1 edition b "whatever" during winter detail regents of the fate of the imaginary convened ...These extrapolated futures are in the great western tradition of migration and despoilation that begun some time before 1000 BC. All of the fresh starts on earth, all of the fresh starts for humans, have been squandered. This is our advantage. We have lost our innocence. We are not Adam and Eve. THE IMAGINARY UNIVERCITY exists because those who matriculate produce it. The students write all of the books in its library, plan the syllabi of the courses. We examine ourselves, we confer our own certificates and degrees. Now those who educate themselves as posthumans begin to produce a nation. The course of study is difficult, the chances for graduation are nil. If you want to study and act, you will be welcome. OTHERWISE, PLEASE, STAY HOME AND WATCH MTV. You should know, however, that our Nation of Noise and Knowledge is at war with the United Nations and all of its members. You will be required to undertake dangerous missions. The stakes could not be higher. --A student, IU, 1995 [from "Posthuman Nation / Knowledge and Noise" _We Magazine 19 (diu 1-20)_, 1995.] "It is all very well to enjoy the infinite bliss of life after death, but it is preferable not to have died at all." Poetry comes into existence in the absence of poetry, where words and language become the objects of a near infinite number of experiments designed to animate a long since passed away corpse. The experiments are interesting, but the corpse, however exquisite, is not. Even the stink, which for some time intoxicated the half-dead disciples of its cause, has become merely another of a countless number of environemntal signs of our collective desperation. The most serious of all work is the most comic, and the most comic the most tragic. The laughter is no longer joyful, but sardonic. Indeed, the most outwardly revolutionary of acts have become the most boring. We learn to live on breath alone. We learn not only to lie profoundly (as the disaffected poet said, and to ask ourselves, knowing this, whether mendacity is the best policy), but to understand that the key to the dissapperance of the world itself has itself, with the world, dissappeared. The aura surrounding the false joy of our recognition that we are all ghosts, has become as repetitive (and thus boring) as the pseudu-political act of revealing "the corpse" for what it really is. We learn not only to live, but to live lacking death, so that the over aestheticized funeral of poetry lacking poetry -- the stillborn child of politicized art -- can finally come to an end. Life has never been more than life experimenting with life. Poetry, at best, has ecstatically been both a lamentation and celebration of that fact. --the As-Of-Yet-Undescribed Student Body RECENT AMERICAN POETRY HAS LACKED poems on the death of a goldfish; baseball metaphors; happy liberalism (remember Hubert Humphrey); epics of artificial intelligence; poems concerning chewing gum--the Juicy Fruit theme; iambic tetrameter quatrains; consumer advice; recipes for smothered pork chops; famous living poets such as John Ashbery; instructions on refurbishing antique chifforobes; Vachel Lindsayism-- boomlay, boomlay, boomlay, BOOM, and forth; good poems on electronic circuitry; references to Chester A. Arthur; rich people who'd pay to be mentioned in poems (i.e. serious patronage); ennobling language; poems about aliens who eats peoples' small intestines; lyrics that turn on delicate points of etiquette; heroic couplets; exposes (as one says in ascii) of the meat-packing industry; poems about how to use an arc welder; the pancreas theme; poems suitable to set for gospel quartets; poems about happy middle age; palindromes; the theme of the foot, especially corns and ingrown toenails; fried food metaphors; images of water skiing; the family farm, milch kine, the Grange, and so forth; poems to be spoken by loose, flabby lips; scandalous revelations about famous academic poets of the 50's; poems about ice fishing; fancy words, like "peignoir" or "puissant," used for their meanings; Studebakers; poems about the new intelligent house appliances; any thing as funny as the Coasters' "Poison Ivy"; poems on themes in higher mathematics; adequate poetic diction: "yonder," "finny tribe," "cyberhacksaw"; rhythms suitable for square dancing; poems about aliens who write Tide commercials; mnemonic devices for the names of civil war generals; skillfully managed Skeltonics; poems that are really diesel engines; secret messages ("the walrus was Paul," etc.); pool halls; hollow men and hollow women; poets who take up the persona of the sage investment banker; an understanding of quantitative verse; poems about building or living in yurts; carnivorous poems; poems about aliens whose genetic code is encrypted on Pearl Jam records; poetry do-it-yourself kits; the Latin names of medicinal herbs; poems on the Vanity of Human Wishes. WHO SAYS POETRY IS USED UP? I went to a poetry conference sometime in the 70's at which there was one of those poetry readings that go on all night. There were seven poems on the death of gold fish-- two in tetrameter couplets, one in Skeltonics, one which included three Latin names of medicinal herbs. I have really seen nothing like it since. In fact shortly thereafter it became unfashionable to mention any thing at all. We once had a gold fish named bubbles, who lived much of the time on our kitchen table, and she was mentioned in poems by at least three visiting poets with whom I sat after dinner discussing Skeltonics and arc welding and drinking coffee. In those days poets spoke of serious matters. Bubbles lived a long life for a gold fish, and when she was grievously flushed, it was no longer considered fashionable to write on that theme, so I wrote about my 1957 Studebaker Golden Hawk, thus, substituting the death of my car, named after a mighty raptor, for Bubbles. It was a cunning stratagem. Your assingment for next week is to write on the vanity of human wishes. This is a theme even older and nobler than dying gold fish, which itself goes back to the Sung dynasty. If you think you are not ready to handle such lofty material, you may attempt to remedy any of the lacks in recent poetry. --The Poetry Work Chop Advisor The while seven other knots hold you. The while you nailed to your bed. The while Trees in wet cement were branded. The while, the while that you want to escape would die to escape. Skrecic, it sounds the same in all the languages. Skrecic, it sounds the same in the seven languages. Skrecic, it sounds the same in the wet cement, the same burning in the fires. *** Sk. (Polish) : contort, --MANOWAK in my garden bleed to death snowball trees of madness from geometrical fountains thrushes of madness in my garden bleed to death from geometrical fountains from geometrical fountains bleed to death in my garden thrushes of madness in my garden bleed to death fountains of madness from geometrical snowball trees geometrical snowball trees in my garden bleed to death from fountains of madness from geometrical madness bleed to death in my garden thy snowball trees at fountains --HCA trans. by M. Hegemony To The Bloodless Refugees Of Emptiness "Through the suburbs sleepless people stagger, as though just delivered from a shipwreck of blood." -Garcia Lorca, The Dawn What now exists as palpable global destiny? What are its markers, its sculpted crimson signs? The psychic atmosphere implies a return to troubled fiefdoms, to monarchies trebeled by ferocious glints of bloody erosion. The sun continues to burn, the tides swarm across their shores with their sulphurs, while human continuity appears and disappears, like a netling grimness of ghosts. What arises from this startling anti- mass is the progressive neutering of the species. During this con- tinuing dearth of higher foci even lightning is misconstrued as mere electrical theatrics. World citizenry now progresses as an artificial epitath, as a spotted hyena starving on kelp, in an atmosphere of plight, hovering in balanced enigma. A spoiled voltage, a principle lacking in cohesion, where horizons disintegrate, where ideographs explode into darkness. Humanity, like generic refugees, profanely strewn across a dome of exploded heliographs. The politicians crave for momentary incisions, for influential poison, much like staggered antelopes searching for sublime direction. For instance, a once dependant compass, now a locust eaten crystal. The collective path, a roving generation of hatchlings, devolving in sullen mental savannahs. We've witnessed many centuries of emigres, of disruptive holocaust phantoms. Now, all the fiestas and dieties somatically crippled, maundering like leaves across sudden hurricane waters, with their destinies entangled in a liminal brushfire pyroclastic. At present, the shadow of our phylum wafting through an un- remitting mime osmotics. The linear goal, the abstracted referent, now remains increasingly hidden in tumultuous occlusion. And what is engendered by the latter, is the bloodless wake for uni-direc- tional propoganda... --WA [to be continued in DIU 22] Nubian Roots Playlist Sunday, January 29, 1995, 12-3pm 90.1 KZSU Stanford DJ Cat Abbey Lincoln Afro-Blue Abbey is Blue Sun Ra Plutonium Nights Angels & Demons at Play/ Nubians of Plutonia Ethnic Heritage Ornette Coleman Dance with the Ancestors Ensemble Fred Houn A Blk Woman Speaks Tomorrow is Now! Johnny Dyani Quartet Blues for Meyake Angolian Cry Bobby Hutcherson Catta Dialogue Michael Benita Quartet Babel Soul Eric Dolphy Feathers Out There 8 Bold Souls A Little Encouragement Ant Farm 8 Bold Souls Half Life Ant Farm Reggie Workman Close Encounter Summit Conference John Coltrane Satellite Coltrane's Sound Di Meola/McLaughlin/ Frevo Rasgado Friday Night in San Francisco DeLucia Kahil El' Zabar Ritual Ornette Renaissance of the Resistance Arthur Blythe Faceless Woman Blythe Spirit Ran Blake The Short Life of The Short Life of Barbara Monk Barbara Monk Marilyn Crispell/ Old Thumper Band on the Wall Eddie Prevost Dogbolter Band on the Wall Apart Band on the Wall Don Pullen Ode to Life Random Thoughts John Jang Monk's Strut Self Defense Giuseppi Logan Quartet Dance of Satan Giuseppi Logan Quartet Andrew Hill Flight 19 Point of Departure Steve Coleman Shift on the Fly Drop Kick available soon as a CD boxed set IN THE AMERICAN OPRY: COUNTRY-WESTERN, POETRY, REALISM compiled by John Denver & featuring Bernadette Mayer & Lee Ann Brown <-> The Judds Jed Rasula <-> Jimmy Buffet Steve Benson <-> Jim Nabors Ron Silliman & David Melnick <-> Roy Clark & Buck Owens Thad Ziolkowski <-> Lyle Lovett Charles Bernstein <-> Roger Miller Hannah Weiner <-> Minnie Pearl Johanna Drucker <-> Reba McEntire Marjorie Perloff <-> Alabama Diane Ward <-> Roseanne Cash Jean Day <-> Carlene Carter Don Byrd <-> Porter Waggoner Lyn Hejinian <-> Loretta Lynn Nick Piombino <-> Garth Brooks Carla Harryman & Barry Watten <-> Tammy Wynette & George Jones Clark Coolidge & Michael Palmer <-> Waylon & Willie Stephen Rodefer <-> Johnny Cash Alan Davies <-> k.d. laing Abby Child <-> Kinky Friedman Bruce Andrews <-> Charlie Pride David Bromige <-> Merle Haggard Robert Grenier <-> Boxcar Willie Kit Robinson <-> Hank Snow Tom Mandel <-> Conway Twitty P. Inman <-> Ernest Tubb Tina Darragh <-> Kitty Wells Bob Perelman <-> Johnny Paycheck Susan Howe <-> Hank Williams Sr. Rae Armantrout <-> Mac Davis Michael Davidson <-> Glen Campbell James Sherry <-> Barbara Mandrell Ray DiPalma <-> Jimmy Webb Joan Retallack <-> Red Sovine Jackson Mac Low <-> The Pioneers Tom Raworth <-> John Anderson Mark Wallace <-> Graham Parsons Andy Levy <-> George Strait Jessica Grim & Melanie Neilsen <-> Flatt & Scruggs Jeff Derksen <-> Jimmy Rodgers Jerry Rothenberg <-> Kenny Rogers Fanny Howe <-> Dolly Parton Alice Notley <-> Lefty Frizzell Keith & Rosmarie Waldrop <-> Jennifer Warnes & Leonard Cohen Benjamin Hollander <-> Freddie Fender Leslie Scalapino <-> David Lindley Peter Gizzi <-> Tennessee Ernie Ford Ben Friedlander <-> Slim Whitman Rod Smith <-> John Prine Douglas Messerli <-> Ray Stevens Rumour has it that in what may be an attempt to flee the ruins, many members of the royalty (including Prince Gizzi) are currently flocking to California in what has (with some tongue in some cheek) been recently dubbed "Project Restore Coast." While some of the native inhabitants fear that such an infusion of "avant-garde" sensibilities might not sit well in what has been called "one of the most alarming mixes of flabby pseudo-sixties idealism and crass mercantilism" ever witnessed, others have stated quite bluntly their favorable position: "Why not hire all of them and have the best poetics program in the nation?" According to inside sources who spoke on condition of anonymity, Top Cop Bob Perelman -- perhaps because of his en-vogue role in the recent film "Postmodernism: The Cultural Logic of Late Capitalism"-- is the front-runner for the recently opened position at Lost Coast University. Some still contend, however, that despite Perelman's acting experience, the fresh young face of Supporting Actor Aaron Shurin because of his wide-market appeal and, as one audience member put it, "ability to relate," is still in strong contention. We've received no reports yet on the tryout performance of Cecil Giscombe, though rumour says that his reading went on, as scheduled, without incident, and that a good deal of fine wine was consumed by all parties involved. We now await the arrival of Prince Gizzi. Let us not fall into the sea Til its best time... --as of yet dis-integrated student body The Last Days of the White Race, Readlist 10 Feb. 1995, Radio Free Northamerica _The Collected Poems of Langston Hughes_ edited by Arnold Rampersad (Knopf 1994): "Songs to the Dark Virgin" "God" "Goodby Christ" "Sunday Morning Prophecy" "Madame and the Minister" "Who But the Lord?" "Bible Belt" "Little Cats" ___ "Would That I were a flame, But one sharp, leaping flame To annihilate a body, Thou dark one" "Spring! Life is love! Love is life only! Better to be human Than God -- and lonely" "Goodbye, Christ Jesus Lord God Jehova Beat it on away from here now Make way for a new guy with no religion at all -- A real guy named Marx Communist Lenin Peasant Stalin Worker ME -- I said ME!" "Come into the church this morning Brothers and Sisters, And be saved -- And give freely In the collection basket That I who am thy shepherd Might live" "He said, Sister Have you back-slid? I said, It felt good -- If I did!" "No I do not understand Why God don't protect a man From police brutalities" "It would be too bad if Jesus Were to come back black. There are so many churches Where he could not pray In the U.S.A." "What happens to little cats? Some get drowned in a well, Some run over by a car -- But none goes to hell" *-*-*-** DIU circulates by the logic of snowflakes thru cf2785@albnyvms.bitnet --**-*-*-*** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 14:21:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Funk Subject: D I U Dear Poetics, DIU, a.k.a. the Imaginary University, began in July '94 & inertiates again today from my email account, the node of a web where it is assembled. A complete catalog of back issues is available via the EPC. Please delete the following message (DIU 21) if uninterested. Otherwise, feel free to sign up! Chris Funkhouser ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 17:23:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: deified theories and unfounded vocabularies X-To: Michael Boughn In-Reply-To: <199502101327.AA21832@panix.com> I'll try again to communicate the necessity of a multi-part relationship between theory and poetry. They are inevitably connected in that every poem participates in one or another or several theories of poetry (one cannot write a poem that doesn't participate in any of several series of ideas about poetry), but poetry and theory are not the same. There can be many sophistic ways to describe this and it is easily misinterpreted as a spiritual relationship, but it's more by way of the range of ideas that poetry and poetics occupy each and both. I am trying to avoid analogy, but a picture in sets would easily explain this concept. To quote the song, it's okey dokey for identity to have several faces as we are many of us poets, editors, theorists, drivers, partners, workers..... James On Fri, 10 Feb 1995, Michael Boughn wrote: > > > > Each poem has a theoretical basis whether it is acknowledged or not. > > Poetry and theory are separate but not separable and do not precede or > > follow each other. James > > > > This sounds a bit like There is a God whether He is acknowledged or > not. Amen. (Yikes! Shades of the M'ers creeping into the L-space.) It > does make it kind of hard to have a conversation, though, when one > side knows the truth. Or is all that just a theory you made up? > > Best, > Mike > mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 17:29:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary X-To: Tom Mandel In-Reply-To: <199502101425.AA06271@panix.com> Yes and you have raised what is for me the interesting question of what aspects of the poem can possibly separate, have an independent existence, from its theory, its author, its reader, its context. Is the poem an object that can in that sense be independent or are we talking about varying densities of language that participate in a discipline called poetry to a greater or lesser extent. To have the discussion properly we need to change its terms. I think the focus is now sharpened by your question. But I go too far too fast. Jmase ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 14:37:53 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Spencer Selby Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary In-Reply-To: <199502100629.WAA01906@slip-1.slip.net> Dear Eric, Theory is formulated ideas about how things work. You don't need theory, or to be that theoretical, to have a context, to have lots of contexts, as I assume most people do, especially in this day and age. There is no single, proper context for a work of art. There is no single, proper context through which to read Shelley, Milton, Pound... It may be helpful to be aware of the contexts through which these poets viewed their own work (and art, life in general) but one does not need those contexts in order to be a receptive reader of their poetry. Those who say otherwise are, to me, playing a big power game: My explanation is better than yours or my explanation is the right one and you are misguided. I know more than you do, so don't challenge me. My idea of art is better formulated than yours, so my view of art, or my art, is superior. Of course some peoples ideas are better formulated, and as explanations these may have more value. But the relationship between such explanations and the art is entirely problematic. The individual must have her own response to art, and the individual must have her own contexts for creating art. Explanations may be helpful or destructive in this endeavor. If I emphasize the negative here it is because others don't, and because I see this negative as looming large over the art today. I do appreciate your letter, your sincerity and your struggle. I agree that this discussion will not be resolved, and I agree that these tensions may be productive. But if you don't believe your own contexts (which neither defer to nor ignore the contexts of others) are all that are necessary for appreciating or creating art, then I believe you will miss out on the best art has to offer. Spencer On Thu, 9 Feb 1995, eric pape wrote: > Spencer, I hear you. I really do, but I must ask finally, what is your > definition of theory? It seems as if James and I are using a definition > that calls for contextualization, and frankly, I think youre idea of > theory is these names which form the heading for the discussion that, > and I agree with you wholeheartedly, has gone on far too long. > Art does have its level. I agree. But it also has a context, > which I will call theoretical, and it is an act of violence that > Shelley, Milton, Pound and even that most unintellectual of intellectual > poets, O'Hara, would perhaps resent, to rip it from that context. > My thing about purity was simply that it didn't seem to me that > what we were saying here, or more precisely what Tom and others > were saying since I did indeed butt-in, was all that "radical" > or even particularly "theoretical." It just seemed sensible to me > and I wondered why it bothered you. That's all. > As for the academy: You scored a hit. I'm an academic, or a wanna > be academic which shows you already the fool you're dealing with here, > and I certainly have an interest in "complexifying matters." But, I'm > a lot of other things too. None of which I can, or want, to seperate > from my work, admittedly limited though it is. > I think a lot of important issues are coming up. I think the reason > we are not any closer to resolving them (and by the way I give you > a great deal of credit personally Spencer for having the stamina to take > on all comers) is that they cannot be resolved. I think it is from these > tensions that the best work comes. > Thanks, Eric (enpape@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu) > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 17:51:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: changing the subject Some suggestions: Friends, don't be lazy: change the subject line if your message is no longer about reified names, boundless vocabularies or apex of the M, etc. And for personal notes (e.g. my wife can play second base), write to each other not the list. Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 19:38:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: Cockney Folk Dance ...fools, ignorami, ministers without portfolio : Pessoa's 3 heteronyms were Alfredo de Campos, Alberto Caiero, Marvin Gaye, and Ricardo Reis. In the case of only one - I mean one only - interregnum... the way I understand it, hokey pokey was a phase between roley poley and chubby checker; I mean a phrase of course... close interregnum was every poem a theory, and that case stood for all. Tm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 19:47:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: deified reams vs. nounless bloakabulary It's all very well to blame the greeks for theory, to be sure; but, the word entered their language from the phrase "they or we" which was inscribed on the banners of the brittano-aryans who invaded the poor pre-monumental scrub cult-ridden territory vastly earlier than previous references. Tm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 19:49:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: Cockney Folk Dance It came to me in a vision, no in a moment of inspiration, the herky jerky demands equal time. (verb where you weel) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 19:52:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary re: James' "every poem has a theoretical basis," I think it's clear what that means if it is understood more or less along the lines of 'every statement has a theoretical basis' or 'every empirical fact has a theoretical basis.' Is there some further sense, special to poetry, in which each example has a theoretical basis (or implies a theory, or however you'd formulate it)? Tom ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 20:51:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: Cockney Folk Dance George bowering - what's the reference for Blackburn's pessoa translation? I'd like to see it. Tm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 20:59:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: Hackney Cockney Cris, did Pessoa write that? amazing... but I thought "O Sole, Mia" referred to the fish beneath her foot. Tm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 21:01:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary Marc, you get a life. Words can be used metaphorically, I do believe. And we all do so. "Insular worlds of poetry, theory..." : should Brits object to the obvious attempt to slander their land formation? Tm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 21:03:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary Chris Stroffolino - just what wd the chicken be alfredof? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 22:53:57 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: eric pape Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 10 Feb 1995 12:51:27 -0500 from C'mon Marc, I think my trope was clear. Haven't you ever violently jerked the steering wheel? Just meant that I thought, humbly, that it took a particularly violent jerk of the old noodle to separate the poem completely from its context. As to "those of us who have been victims of violence," what do you want? That I demonstrate that I've been a victim of violence? I have. That I demonstrate I've commited an act of violence? I have. How do I prove this in your opinion? A story? A police report? Snapshots? What would this prove? That I have a life, really truly?Would you believe it? Thanks, Eric ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 01:40:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Spencer Selby Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary In-Reply-To: <199502110206.SAA29203@slip-1.slip.net> Before James and Tom take off completely, or as they proceed to what are for them more interesting questions, I would like to mention that the fact that we can derive theories from works of art does not mean art does not have its own level. Art is much more than these theories, and that is one reason why it has its own level. Spencer Selby ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 08:10:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary Dear Marc Nasdor-- "Real" vs. fake violence. As i write this, there is a woman screaming next store at her 'lover' who is beating her. Physical vs. psychic-- it kinda puts my "merely mental' pain into perspective, yet there's also the fact that someone can GO THROUGH THE MOTIONS--be there physically but not mentally. "corporeal friends are spiritual enemies" --Blake...So, should we reserve the word violence for the strictly material realm. For instance, if a homeless man hassles you for money that may be more PHYSICALLY violent than the GOVERNMENT oh so politely raising taxes, but which is more VIOLENT. God, I feel like Peter Tosh singing "tell me who are the criminals..." Chris (or one who has also been told often to "get a life")... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 08:48:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: deified theories and unfounded vocabularies In-Reply-To: <9502110129.AA19693@jazz.epas.utoronto.ca> from "James Sherry" at Feb 10, 95 05:23:34 pm "He who is not in love is driven back to theory." --Michel Serres, *Rome: A Book of Foundations* If Ahab has a theory ("a little lower layer . . ."), what does Ishmael have? Best, Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 09:44:47 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: eric pape Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 10 Feb 1995 14:37:53 -0800 from Considering the recent rather odd discussion on "violence" I agree with you that there can be a "violence" to the way theory is used, as I should say there is a violence, perhaps more metaphysical (butnevertheless neccessary as all metaphysics, spirits, narratives, are neccessary) to a certain aestheticized position. I don't argue that this is your position, incidentally. There was much in your posting I agreed with, as above, some I didn't: I think we can have a respectful disagreement. I think that's possible. Thanks, Spencer. Eric (enpape@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 11:04:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary I'm starting to get a clearer picture of what is implied in James' dictum "every poem has a theoretical basis," & I thot to try it out on you all. Take a musical equivalent. Certainly, every sonata has a theoretical basis - in some version of the classical sonata as an idea, a form and ideal for musical expression. And this clearly is theoretical in a real sense. Every string quartet, symphony, etc. In the above, we are referring to the character of an art form historically. we are referring to European music from the late 18th century forward, continuing in varied ways to our own day when, still, someone writing a sonata wd be operating from a theory of the sonata, and a theory of music englobing sonata theory. Similarly for non-classical forms. So what is being indicated here is not an analytical fact, nor a god that's there willy nilly, but the developing character of an art discipline: its historical character, its self-expressed ideals and forms, and ways - parts of the ways - to approach and understand works within that discipline. And I think one cd rewrite the description of music to fit equally well the history of painting, again European painting. This is different too from my supposition or query whether James was just saying that as every expression or human act occurs within a cultural context which establishes at least a domain and horizon for its formal ideals of truth, appropriateness, appeal, etc., so a poem, in that sense, implied a theory (or even theories). In a sense then, what James is argueing for is a historical poetics, that we understand poetry w/in the context of the extended internal and external conversation (challenge and response, as we say in the login world) which underlies its practice. This is strong, open and interesting. What does draw one to write poetry? How are terms (viz. spirit) interesting or operative in that conversation? His requirement of the apexers to nuance, to be subtle, not to be frontal, about their terms, is then a request for them to enter that conversation, and not a pan from the superior position of one who's been around long enough to know better, as it were (and in that formulation I think too that I'm trying to recontextualize some of what may come off as arrogance in my own contributions here). I haven't meant to represent James in this, but to open the ways his urgencies (and poetry is an urgent endeavor or nil) allow me to think and respond. Tom Mandel ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 11:06:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary "Art has its own level" --- that is a theory Spencer, or rather a small part of one or a single expression of one (or of many of them). No? tom ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 11:38:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Donald J. Byrd" Subject: Theory James Sherry is undoubtedly correct that poetry cannot produce pure tran nition academic. That is, the theoretical issues are always in play in the ope ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 10:52:58 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: eric pape Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 11 Feb 1995 11:04:05 -0500 from Yes, yes. This makes it clearer. And extremely interesting. But, doesn't this, when it truly becomes poetry=theory, which incidentally is not what I think I hear James saying, become another form of intentionality? Ie., the poet intends this or that context? Might we think of the poem, as I think Tom indicates, as a dynamic in which these varying contexts, spirits, politics, narratives, metaphysics, and everything that works against these, circulate? Might we think ofthe poem, or any work of art, as an intricate process in which a multiplicity of concepts, with a both small and a capital C occur? This implies, to me, a poetry that works against stability, that is anything but static. And seems to me something that implies that thinking/creating/versifying/etc. never ends. just a few scattered thoughts. Thanks, Eric (enpape@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 15:01:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carla Billitteri Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Correction > Subject: AHP Corrects Translation Story > Copyright: 1999 by The Anti-Hegemony Project > Date: 10 Feb 99 15:30:45 EST > > Lines: 10 > > PROVIDENCE (AHP) -- In a Feb. 11 story about the use of humans > in translation experiments, The Anti-Hegemony Project erroneously > reported that Brown University researchers used a translated substance > in a 1995 experiment on newborns. > The story was based on a Bureau of the Atlantic publication > that listed the Brown experiment as one of 154 studies involving > translation and human subjects. However, the Bureau now acknowledges > the substance used at Brown, waldrop-50, is not translative, said > Michael Palmer, deputy director of the Bureau's Office of Human > Translation Experiments. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 21:23:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Donald J. Byrd" Subject: Theory In uploading, this file somehow lost its line breaks. Hopefully this will be more readable: James Sherry is undoubtedly correct that poetry cannot produce pure transparent immediacy, and it is therefore inevitably supplemented, consciously or unconsciously, with theory. It seems to me, however, the following points might advance this thread of discussion. 1. Poets are as responsible for their theory as they are for their art, and poets during the past twenty years have often abdicated the responsibility. The theoretical results in philosophy as such and in the social and physical sciences are not irrelevant to poetry, but their use in poetics is limited at best. The poet must think through the same issues but think through them in relation to the concrete practice of poetry. 2. The poetry that is of enduring interest from Hesiod's _Theogony_ to Jack Clark's sonnets, Nate Mackey's _School of Uhdra_, Anne Waldman's _Iovis_, and Charles Stein's _The Hat Rack Tree_ incorporates its theory in the poems themselves. Theoretically complex poetry otherwise is by definition academic. That is, the theoretical issues are always in play in the open form in which immediacy and thought are always in recursive interaction. This recursion is literally the motive of creative act. 3. One of the reasons this becomes a difficult issue is that more and more poets find themselves employed in graduate education, a very different role to the academic poets of the 50's (who often taught in small liberal arts schools or carried on the liberal-arts-school function in a large university). It does seem to me we might find reasons to object to poems that illustrate this or that hot theory. This kind of poetry seems to me at present a serious plague. It is comparable to the endless iambic tetrameter quatrains that illustrated the theoretical pronouncements of late Eliot. Don Byrd ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 22:06:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marc Nasdor Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary Tom-- Fortunately or unfornately, I've got more life than I can handle. In any case, I was only stating that Eric's use of the term "violence" was way overblown, so I guess that makes it an overblown metaphor. So chill. --Marc ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 21:06:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: Re: Theory In-Reply-To: <01HMXND989N69I8IKI@asu.edu> On Sat, 11 Feb 1995, Donald J. Byrd wrote: > In uploading, this file somehow lost its line breaks. > Hopefully this will be more readable: > > > James Sherry is undoubtedly correct that poetry cannot > produce pure transparent immediacy, and it is therefore inevitably > supplemented, consciously or unconsciously, with theory. > > It seems to me, however, the following points might advance > this thread of discussion. > > 1. Poets are as responsible for their theory as they > are for their art, and poets during the past twenty years have > often abdicated the responsibility. The theoretical results > in philosophy as such and in the social and physical sciences > are not irrelevant to poetry, but their use in poetics is > limited at best. The poet must think through the same issues > but think through them in relation to the concrete practice of > poetry. Don-- why not write them through as/in poetry? Or is that what you meant? And if so then pinnning down the 2/3 split would seem esp. pressing (whose theoretically alert poetry is responsive and whose is just abdication?) > > 2. The poetry that is of enduring interest from Hesiod's > _Theogony_ to Jack Clark's sonnets, Nate Mackey's _School of > Uhdra_, Anne Waldman's _Iovis_, and Charles Stein's _The Hat > Rack Tree_ incorporates its theory in the poems themselves. > Theoretically complex poetry otherwise is by definition academic. > That is, the theoretical issues are always in play in the open form > in which immediacy and thought are always in recursive > interaction. This recursion is literally the motive of creative act. > > 3. One of the reasons this becomes a difficult > issue is that more and more poets find themselves employed in > graduate education, a very different role to the academic poets of the > 50's (who often taught in small liberal arts schools or carried on the > liberal-arts-school function in a large university). It does seem to me > we might find reasons to object to poems that illustrate this or that > hot theory. This kind of poetry seems to me at present a serious > plague. It is comparable to the endless iambic tetrameter quatrains > that illustrated the theoretical pronouncements of late Eliot. > > Don Byrd > > > To unbeg this question, I guess, names might be named, or working criteria given. That is: how distinguish "in general" between poetry in which " the theoretical issues are always in play in the open form > in which immediacy and thought are always in recursive > interaction" and the poetry which merely "illustrates" a theory? I guess it might be done in practice, but I bet such a distinction would be hard to align with something like "open form" unless that's either a School Cheer or, essentially, a tautology. Tenney Nathanson ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 08:57:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Donald J. Byrd" Subject: Re: Theory In-Reply-To: <199502120408.XAA06855@sarah.albany.edu> from "Tenney Nathanson" at Feb 11, 95 09:06:23 pm In response to my claim that poets must think through the theoretical issues in relation to poetic practice, Tenney Nathanson asks, > why not write them through as/in poetry? Yes, I would say the _great_ poets, in some sense the only poets worth _studying_, are those who set forth clearly in the poems themselves the circular dependency of immediacy and abstraction (Parmenides, Lucretius, Blake, and Olson are examples). Other poetry is read as journalism (i.e. information set forth in the context of the large unstated prejudices of the day) or as distraction (poetry as tv). It does seem, however, that an intermediate discourse is sometimes necessary. Olson's _SPecial View of History_, for example. The distinction between poetry in which the theoretical issues are always in play and poems that merely illustrate a theory is in practice quite clear. Poetry of the former type takes full responsibility for the theory. Of course, this means that the poem that addresses its own theoretical base is still dependent upon the theory that makes that poem possible. Serious poetry, however, takes full responsibility for the loop, which is its central motive. Poetry of the latter type, takes the fact that any poem must depend upon a theory to dodge responsibility for the poem at hand. Thus, poetry becomes a reliance upon various algorithms of novelty. The poet feels assured that this work must be important, if he or she only had time to think up or at least articulate the theory on which it depends. Don Byrd ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 09:28:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: theory & truth that poetry cannot produce pure transparent immediacy -- which used to be a hypothesis -- has now been certified as the truth by at least two people. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 06:45:48 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary " As i write this, there is a woman screaming > next store at her 'lover' who is beating her. " Why are you writing this to the list when you should be calling the cops? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 10:31:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary X-To: Spencer Selby In-Reply-To: <199502110941.AA10463@panix4.panix.com> On Sat, 11 Feb 1995, Spencer Selby wrote: > Before James and Tom take off completely, or as they proceed to what are > for them more interesting questions, I would like to mention that the > fact that we can derive theories from works of art does not mean art does > not have its own level. *Art is much more than these theories,* I DON'T KNOW ABOUT TOM, BUT FOR ME THE HIERARCHICAL STATEMENT REGARDING THE PRECEDENCE OF ART IS WHAT IS IS QUESTION. ART IS PRECEDED AND FOLLOWED BY THEORY AND VICE VERSA. THEORIES ABOUT ART AND ABOUT OTHER DISCIPLINES AFFECT ART. YOU ARE BEING CONSISTENTLY REDUCTIVE, SPENCER, AND REDUCING ART THEREBY TO SOME "HIGHER" (SIC) ORDER. (And no one would disagree that art doesn't have its own level.) and that is > one reason why it has its own level. > Spencer Selby > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 10:33:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Donald J. Byrd" Subject: Re: theory & truth In-Reply-To: <199502121427.JAA12195@sarah.albany.edu> from "Jorge Guitart" at Feb 12, 95 09:28:31 am No, I believe that _language_ cannot produce pure immediacy was proven by conclusive logic by Parmenides. Don Byrd ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 10:40:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: deified theories and unfounded vocabularies X-To: Michael Boughn In-Reply-To: <199502111351.AA21807@panix3.panix.com> I believe that the "little lower layer" theory is Starbuck's. Ahab's point of view is much more black and white, while Ishmael's theory is a third one about the relative values of observation and humanity. This is a theory common to many of the 19th century writers and much discussed. The opposition of love to theory is a particularly savage one that justifies a lot of abuse and anti-intellectual essentializing. It implies that a lover can't have a theory. Aren't we all capable of divesting ourselves of these fictions of hierarchy and digesting a mutable world view? James On Sat, 11 Feb 1995, Michael Boughn wrote: > "He who is not in love is driven back to theory." > --Michel Serres, *Rome: A Book of Foundations* > > > If Ahab has a theory ("a little lower layer . . ."), what does Ishmael > have? > > Best, > Mike > mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 11:24:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Re: deified theories I, for one, have some problem with the word "art" when it comes up in relation to theory. Theory I can see. There's a practical quality to it. I mean you sit down and type it out. Whether the poem precedes theory or the theory proceeds the poem is probably moot. But when does the poem turn into "art"? Isn't this something left way behind somewhere? Here's what the _American Heritage_ has to say about it: 1. Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature. 2.a. The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty, specifically the production of the beautiful in a graphic or plastic medium. So maybe that's my difficulty with the term. It brings up the spectre of those terms like the "beautiful" and "nature" which seem foreign to activities that might have some application to our present gatherings... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 08:49:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: theory & truth Don Byrd wrote: > No, I believe that _language_ cannot produce pure >immediacy was proven by conclusive logic by Parmenides. But that's because Parmenides didn't recognize the presence of the signifier. Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 10:51:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: deified theories this is such a knotty issue, but i'll risk a few premature assertions... it's probably worth pointing out here that much of what is taken as properly theoretical these days, academically speaking, is in fact theory about theory... metatheory, that is, of one sort or another... now not to conflate terms further, BUT theoretical practice, as i understand same, ultimately must account for itself... the logic, that is, is not one of a hermetic system (regarding which one may cite any number of related proofs contra) but one, rather, of recognized and working (conscious and quasi -conscious etc.) mutual interrelations of signifying practices with somewhat differing aims... i say "somewhat" because there is, on the surface of it, no recourse to any but a generic preference that places, say, 'art' over here and 'theory' over there... now in practice there ARE of course distinctions, and distinctions such that one may be led to believe that art *must* be over here and theory *must* be over there... but what justification, other than an empirical (and perhaps anecdotal) claim as to the intrinsic primacy of art, can anybody make, finally, that does not bring with it either a (however carefully worked out) faith or an institutional(-historical) predisposition, and more than likely both?... that is, the 'art vs. theory' discussion is a vexed issue precisely because there would seem to be no overarching consensus as to what we might hope either practice to accomplish (in practice... and yeah, "we")... i grant that the past couple of decades has witnessed the erosion of artistic authority (if you will) in the name largely of theory... surely this is part of the general trend, that of the movement of more and more intellectual work into the "academy"... but just as surely this need not necessarily blind anybody to the interdependencies at work between these symbolic-material 'realms'... so to pose the question of what it is that art does over and against what it is that theory does---if i may be allowed to wax utilitarian for a moment---is to ask, essentially, how it is we regard the place of intellectual work of one sort or another given our respective public/private sites... ////in good faith... joe (amato) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 12:19:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: theory & truth Is Ron saying thus that if Parmenidies would have recognized the "presence" of the signifier that he would have been able to prove that language can produce pure immediacy????? And what does this "pure immediacy" signify for people? Can immediacy be said to be pure? Should we theorize immediacy? Is irony the expression of immediacy on the 'level' of theory? And what of the "circle"? Don Byrd spoke of the "circular dependency of immediacy and abstraction"--but if the "circle", an "ideal form" that doesn't exist "in nature", is an abstraction, this mutuality privileges the abstract (and is perhaps not mutual)... Circle line, vicious circle, Aristotle's god of pure contemplation, Short circuit. Spinning one's wheels without "intentionality" Will the circle be unbroken? When you get circulars in the mail do you consider them junk mail? IS THERE a circle, an "inner circle," "The pleasures of merely circulating"--the Blakian vortex, girl by the whirlpool looking for a new fool? Is the circle a chain, a golden chain, should we TRUST ANYTHING? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 12:08:45 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: eric pape Subject: Re: theory & truth In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 12 Feb 1995 12:19:30 -0500 from Chris asks "Can we trust anything?" Good question. Answer: No. Thanks, Eric. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 12:09:44 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: eric pape Subject: Re: theory & truth In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 12 Feb 1995 08:49:22 -0800 from I'm sorry Ron. I'm confused. How is the signifier "present?" My understanding, admittedly limited and admittedly "academic" (why do I, as this I write more and more on this list,feel the need for quotations?) is that the signifier is absent and exposes the absence of the signified? Please explain. Thanks, Eric (enpape@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 14:10:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: deified theories & unfounded vocabularies "Vengeance on a dumb brute!" cried Starbuck, "that simply smote thee from blindest instinct! Madness! To be enraged with a dumb thing, Captain Ahab, seems blasephemous." "Hark ye yet again,--the little lower layer. All visible objects, man, are but as pasteboard masks. But in each event--in the living act, the undoubted deed--there, some unknown but still reasoning thing puts forth the mouldings of its features from behind the unreasoning mask. If man will strike, strike through the mask! How can the prisoner reach outside except by thrusting through the wall? To me, the white whale is that wall, shoved near to me. Sometimes I think there's naught beyond. But 'tis enough. He tasks me; he heaps me; I see in him outrageous strength, with an inscrutable malice sinewing in it. The inscrutable thing is chiefly what I hate . . . ." --*Moby-Dick*, Chapter 36, "The Quarter-deck" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 14:18:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: deified theories and unfounded vocabularies "A book only exists by means of an outside, a beyond. Thus, a book being itself a little machine, what measurable relationship does this literary machine have in turn with a war machine, a love machine, a revolutionary machine, etc.--and with an *abstract machine* which drives them along? We have been reproached too often for invoking literary authors. But the only question when writing is with what other machine the literary machine can be connected, and must be connected in order to function. Kleist is a mad war machine, Kafka an extraordinary bureaucratic machine . . . (and if one became animal or vegetable *through* literature, which admittedly doesn't mean "literarily," wouldn't it be first through the voice?). Literature is an arrangement; it has nothing to do with ideology. There is no ideology and there never has been." Deleuze and Guattari, *On the Line* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 14:38:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: deified theories and unfounded vocabularies Imagine this, James, that at the moment the poem enters the world, rather than having a theory as its basis (as you put it), it simultaneously engenders a theory, a counter-theory, a non-theory, several anti-poems, non-poems, and counter-poems, and in a sort clinamenic, rhizomatic fracturing that spreads across the face of the world as we know it, multiplies, swerves, joins, splits into a massive multiplicitous joyful inscrutablility in whose features we may vaguely make out something resembling the possibilty of a white whale sporting amongst what Ishmael called "young Leviathan amours of the deep." I saw something like this once at the particle accelerator at Livermore Labs--an image of an electron which, as it approached the speed of light, disappeared completely from our space/time continuum (where the hell did it go?), only to reappear in a shower of subatomic particles, anti-particles, non-particles, and god knows what else. Bottom line, as the Duke said: "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. Dowop shewop dowop shewop dowop shewop do." Best, Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 09:43:22 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Cockney Folk Dance And I have never heard of Pokey flavour ice cream. Maybe that is a New Zealand flavour. Derived from lanolin, maybe? I will be in Aukland tomorrow, and try to find some Pokey ice cream. Well, no not quite. Ask for Hokey Pokey and you'll get something vanilla with butterscotch chips. Anyone would know that, I thought. Hence at Rotorua in the Sheraton Hotel, you'll find a Maroi concert party singing in the evening the Hokey Pokey. My father-in-law says its the Hokey Tokey anyway and he comes from the deep south, Invercargill. I can only assume that we are encountering here a not unfamiliar folk music situation, where local variants abound. But still, in all traditions I have heard, at some point you put your right foot (etc) in. I am pleased to know Cokey may be a version of Cockney. The Hockney Cockney is what it should be, perhaps (David Hockney, however, comes from Yorkshire, I believe) I thought that Cokey and Tokey were perhaps more likely to be references to illegal substances.j Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 17:15:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: parmenides how could parmenides prove anything conclusively by logic if change is an illusion. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 15:33:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: Re: deified theories and unfounded vocabularies In-Reply-To: <01HMYF7ILBR69I8IKI@asu.edu> Since Moby Dick got in between James Sherry on one side and Don Byrd and Mike B on the other (the latter playing Ahab as theory off against Ishmael as poesis and freedom, as I understand it, it's worth drawing attention to Don Pease's terrific chapter on Moby Dick and what he calls the "cold war consensus," in /Visionary Compacts/. The point being that Ahab, in "cold war criticism," is figured as totalitarian will, from whom Ishmael's liberal symbolism (allegory versus symbol gets mobilized in the criticism as well) liberates "us." Pease is of course critical of this enabling dichotomy, and thus lines up roughly w James S. and against Mike B at least. So that poetry as opposed to (hegemonic? totalizing?) theory would if not be part of, then at least seem to have an interest in appealing to an enabling fifty year old liberal politics of containment. Curious. Tenney On Sun, 12 Feb 1995, James Sherry wrote: > I believe that the "little lower layer" theory is Starbuck's. Ahab's > point of view is much more black and white, while Ishmael's theory is a > third one about the relative values of observation and humanity. This is > a theory common to many of the 19th century writers and much discussed. The > opposition of love to theory is a particularly savage one that justifies > a lot of abuse and anti-intellectual essentializing. It implies that a > lover can't have a theory. Aren't we all capable of divesting ourselves > of these fictions of hierarchy and digesting a mutable world view? James > > On Sat, 11 Feb 1995, Michael Boughn wrote: > > > "He who is not in love is driven back to theory." > > --Michel Serres, *Rome: A Book of Foundations* > > > > > > If Ahab has a theory ("a little lower layer . . ."), what does Ishmael > > have? > > > > Best, > > Mike > > mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 17:43:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: deified theories and unfounded vocabularies Or (1)--it ain't got that swing if it don't mean a thing (2)--it don't mean a thing if it only got that swing... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 19:54:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Donald J. Byrd" Subject: Re: parmenides In-Reply-To: <199502122214.RAA18025@sarah.albany.edu> from "Jorge Guitart" at Feb 12, 95 05:15:47 pm Parmenides' proof that, if there is anything, it cannot be spoken, is one of the rare and wonderful philosophic certainties. (See, Charles Stein, ed., _Being=SPace x Action_, North Atlantic Books). Wittgenstein makes a similar argument in Tractatus: "Of that which we cannot speak we must remain silent." Don Byrd ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 20:12:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Belle Gironda Subject: M Comes Under Fire Subject: M Comes Under Fire Copyright: 1999 by The Anti-Hegemony Project Date: 2 Apr 99 02:04:99 EST LINES: 54 BUFFALO (AHP) -- The ``mumthing different'' about ``the M'' has come under fire from poetry abuse prevention advocates who contend it has caught the fancy of underage readers. Critics in at least 10 states have complained to Buffalo's Poetics Program about the radically transparent verbiage, saying it has a sour aftertaste like baby formula but a slightly higher confusion content than Poetics' own original brew. They say M is increasingly consumed by juveniles, and has fostered false rumors in some areas that it is undetectable by breathalyzer tests used to prosecute poets with slurred speech. ``The product is clearly designed to seem different from regular language poetry,'' said Mark Wallace, executive director of the Center for Science in the Public Interest in Washington. ``It's ---More--- Group bleari.poesy.food available: 13 - 19 unread: 1 article 18 21-JUN-1999 03:30:00 enticing young people to consume poetic verbiage, kids that otherwise might not read the stuff. ``I think it sets a pattern of the poetic verbiage industry constantly testing the waters with different kinds of products to see if they can find ways of expanding what has been a stagnant market.'' The Poetics Program has responded to the criticism with an aggressive program emphasizing M is for adults only. It has sent letters to community leaders, book reviewers and magazine editors stating that M will register on breathalyzer equipment. ``There are always things kids are going to find appealing about what adults do,'' said Poetics spokeswoman Charlotte Pressler. ``We feel we have very effectively addressed all of the issues overall.'' ``apex of the M,'' packaged in a red cover, splashed onto the poetic scene in Spring 1994, catching on in a slick, quick-moving editorial campaign where words with a New Age connotation were substituted for the more formalist vocabulary of traditional language writing. ---More--- Group bleari.poesy.food available: 13-19 unread: 1 article 18 21-JUN-1999 03:30:00 ``Opaque'' was out, ``transparent'' in. ``Shelley'' replaced ``Shklovsky,'' ``love'' replaced ``method.'' This Fall a new campaign, with the slogan ``M is mumthing different,'' was unveiled on the internet. M has a confusion content of 3.7 percent by weight, compared with language poetry's confusion content of 3.6 percent by weight, Pressler said. The transparent verbiage has become one of the most successful new products in the industry, and has been credited for much of Poetics' recent revenues. Poetry abuse prevention advocates say they began noticing increased M consumption among juveniles last spring. In Albany, N.Y., poetics police reported large quantities of M at juvenile drinking parties, said Betsy Burns, program coordinator for the county's Drawing the Line on Underage Poetry Use. That county also is where the false rumors about the breathalyzer detection spread to the point that Burns' group made a video of a literary critic (Jeff Hansen) getting confused by M. The video showed the test detecting this confusion. ---More--- Group bleari.poesy.food available: 13 - 19 unread: 1 article 18 21-JUN-1999 03:30:00 Since the prevention efforts began, there has been a decrease in the number of complaints, Burns said. One factor could be that more parents have become aware that M is adult verbiage, she said. Kevin McGee of the Marin Institute, a poetry abuse prevention group in Marin County, Calif. said he has noticed an increase in M use among younger college students who have been ``very taken by the editorials and have embraced M.'' ``The whole `mumthing different' is for a generation that's looking to define itself but doesn't know what to say,'' said McGee. ``It plays off that myth that something like poetics won't affect you the same way free verse or hard poetry will.'' Inquiries to the Poetics Program about M peaked at about 200 in May; in the last three months of 1994, inquiries totaled about 10 a month, said Pressler. ``We feel we have very effectively addressed the issues overall,'' she said. Yunte Huang, group manager of confusion issues at Poetics, said the program has financed some poetry abuse prevention aimed at ---More--- Group bleari.poesy.food available: 13 - 19 unread: 1 article 18 21-JUN-1999 03:30:00 underage drinkers. ``We are very concerned and it is not our intent that this is a product that is consumed by youth,'' he said. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 21:49:45 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mn Center For Book Arts Subject: Re: deified theories and unfounded vocabularies X-To: UB Poetics discussion group In-Reply-To: <2f3e5f3b6519002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Generally I like to refer to Deleuze & Guattari, but I do believe that the relations between/among "book" & "literature" are entirely problematic, and I can more easily embrace the concept of book as machine than literature as one. I also find most statements that, as D. Byrd says, poems "incorporate" theory to be too pat. They may do so, but hopefully in a way which enables both theory and poetry to be anything but dogmatic and inflexible. Please explain, Spencer, what "level" art has. Art has its own level, is this like one of Dante's circles in the Inferno, or somewhere up some other cosmological ladder? Can art or theory really be divided so clearly from one another or from any number of other practices we can name, like work, state, love, morality? charles alexander ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 23:39:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: parmenides & wittgenstein 1. `there is anything (=something [same word in Greek i believe) is T, since here is for instance the net; 2. 'it cannot be spoken' is F since it is self contradictory; 3. therefore 'if there is anything, it cannot be spoken' is F since `p > q' is F' whenever q is F, regardless of the T-value of p. ---------------------------------------- wittgenstein went on writing post-tractatus & wrote about things he could not know. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 01:11:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Martin Spinelli Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: * AHP LANGUAGE ADVISORY * Date: 7 Apr 99 01:55:00 EST ******************************************************* * NOTICE TO ALL STATIONS * ******************************************************* * * * A LANGUAGE ADVISORY IS IN EFFECT FOR THE PROGRAM * * * * "Sound & Sense / Poetics Today" (4/7) * * 16:00 * * SATCHAN 3 * * PEV 007 * * * * THE WORD "class" OCCURS SEVERAL TIMES IN THE * * SENATOR AMATO INTERVIEW IN SEGMENT C-1 * * * * 1:21 INTO THE SEGMENT "...poetry break for * * the middle-class..." * * * * AND AGAIN 4:03 INTO THE SEGMENT "...the * * President and his class war..." * * * * DELETE AS PER LOCALLY MANDATED GUIDELINES. * * * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 08:25:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Donald J. Byrd" Subject: Re: parmenides & wittgenstein In-Reply-To: <199502130437.XAA23672@sarah.albany.edu> from "Jorge Guitart" at Feb 12, 95 11:39:11 pm > > 1. `there is anything (=something [same word in Greek i believe) is T, since > here is for instance the net; > 2. 'it cannot be spoken' is F since it is self contradictory; > 3. therefore 'if there is anything, it cannot be spoken' is F > since `p > q' is F' whenever q is F, regardless of the T-value of p. > > ---------------------------------------- > > wittgenstein went on writing post-tractatus & wrote about things he could not > know. > That is, Wittgenstein gave up the possibility of presentational immediacy and the transcendental signifier, and decided to use ordinary language... The proof is not the existence of a transcendental sign, but that, if there _is_ a transcendental sign, it cannot be spoken. I do not understand the demonizing of the transcendental signifier in Language poetry theory. In fact, as attractive as the idea is from an emotional point of view, it is not an important idea in western logic. Those who have taken it seriously have tended, like Wittgenstein, to give up on the idea. If it is too rigorous for scientific logic, its existential requirements are too stringent for poetry, which is after all predicated as a fiction. Even the poet who claims a transcendental signifier does not. Don Byrd ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 09:54:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: DIGEST option: how to get less messages X-To: poetics@UBVMS.BITNET If you would prefer to receive one message from the Poetics list each day, which would include all messages posted to the list for that day, you can now use the digest option: Send this one-line message (no subject line) to listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu set poetics digest !!Send this message to "listserv" not to Poetics or as a reply to this message!! You can switch back to individual posts by sending this messagage: set poetics mail ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 13:46:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary In-Reply-To: <199502101835.NAA07270@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu> What role does the differing institutional (academic and otherwise) authority given to "theory" and "art" in a context in which they are definitely understood as separate have to do with this current debate? I'm tempted to say that if you want to be listened to, you better call yourself a theory. We could probably use the words "theory" and "art" anyway we want (would that make me Wittgensteinian, in a sense?) but that doesn't mean anybody else is going to ( I know that does make me Wittgensteinian). mark wallace ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 12:10:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: Re: DIGEST option: how to get less messages In-Reply-To: <01HMZS9WRYRM9I8SNQ@asu.edu> and to undo that option, Charles? is it just set poetics nodigest (or "indigest" perhaps?) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 14:16:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: deified theories and unfounded vocabularies X-To: Michael Boughn In-Reply-To: <199502121939.AA04209@panix4.panix.com> Nice formulation that may address also Loss' concern. On Sun, 12 Feb 1995, Michael Boughn wrote: > Imagine this, James, that at the moment the poem enters the world, > rather than having a theory as its basis (as you put it), it > simultaneously engenders a theory, a counter-theory, a non-theory, > several anti-poems, non-poems, and counter-poems, and in a sort > clinamenic, rhizomatic fracturing that spreads across the face of > the world as we know it, multiplies, swerves, joins, splits into a > massive multiplicitous joyful inscrutablility in whose features we may > vaguely make out something resembling the possibilty of a white whale > sporting amongst what Ishmael called "young Leviathan amours of the deep." > > I saw something like this once at the particle accelerator at > Livermore Labs--an image of an electron which, as it approached the > speed of light, disappeared completely from our space/time continuum > (where the hell did it go?), only to reappear in a shower of subatomic > particles, anti-particles, non-particles, and god knows what else. > > Bottom line, as the Duke said: "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got > that swing. Dowop shewop dowop shewop dowop shewop do." > > Best, > Mike > mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 14:17:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Charles A. Baldwin" Subject: ``FREE BARRY'' (fwd) Subject: Famous Killer Whale Set Free Copyright: 1999 by The Anti-Hegemony Project Date: 1 Mar 99 00:00:01 PST Lines: 53 SAN FRANCISCO (AHP) -- This time he has a reason to leap. Watten, the killer whale made famous by the film ``Free Barry,'' is heading toward a new home in Michigan and eventual freedom, his owners announced yesterday. The Berkeley amusement park where Watten has lived for the past decade signed an agreement donating the 3.5-ton mammal to the Free Barry-Watten Foundation, which plans to eventually free him in waters off Japan after a rehabilitation period at the Wayne State Aquarium in Detroit. The amusement park said the 15-year-old whale, captured off the coast of Japan at age 2, has performed for over a hundred visitors over the past 10 years. Efforts to free him have been underway since the Poetry Flash film was released. ---More-- Group bleari.poesy.animals available: 1 - 10 unread: 10 article ``writing degree zero'' 29-FEB-1999 24:00:00 ``Watten will be the only captive lang-po whale that doesn't have to do shows or perform,'' Patrick Phillips, director of the foundation, said at a news conference yesterday. The foundation plans to move him in November. In many ways, Watten is like a typical human teen-ager -- he's got skin problems, has grown (to 21 feet), and now wants a girlfriend. ``He requires more space, different conditions and also a companion,'' said Svetlana Alpers, a spokeswoman for the Berkeley habitat Representations. Phillips said the park ``received letters and proposals of aid from all over the world.'' He said it waited until receiving ``an absolute guarantee'' that conditions in the killer whale's new home would be adequate. Phillips said the entire project will cost ``a heck of a lot of moolah'' over four years and include Watten's ``relocation, rehabilitation, possible mating, possible liberation and investigations into the whereabouts of the family of Watten.'' That includes funds to build an expensive, 2-million-gallon ---More--- Group bleari.poesy.animals available: 1 - 10 unread: 10 article ``writing degree zero'' 299-FEB-1999 24:00:00 tank at the Michigan aquarium. Experts said Watten needs to be trained gradually for life at sea -- weaned, for example, from eating dead fish to eating live ones. ``Watten, who has passed all his life away from the sea, would encounter serious difficulties feeding himself, caring for himself and surviving by himself in a hostile environment,'' Phillips said. So far, the foundation has collected about half the needed funds, including a generous grant from Poetry Flash and George Lakoff Inc., creators of ``Free Barry.'' The money raised includes a small sum from former students at San Francisco State Elementary School, who conducted a letter-writing campaign and saved pennies. They began sending letters in last month to prominent businessmen and individuals, including marine sociobiologist Jacques de Certeau. Certeau sent no money, but praised the children for their efforts. Singer Jimmy Buffett sent $500. ---More--- Group bleari.poesy.animals available: 1 - 10 unrad: 10 article ``writing degree zero'' 29-FEB-1999 24:00:00 Further fund-raising efforts will be tied to a Poetry Flash sequel due for release next summer. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 14:25:25 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "H. T. KIRBY-SMITH" Organization: University of NC at Greensboro Subject: (Fwd) (Fwd) Re: (Fwd) Re: parmenides & wittgenstein Perhaps this comment by Jarret Leplin may help to clarify the Wittgenstein/Langpo connection: ". . . the falsehood (if that's that 'F' means) of q does not establish the falsehood of p>q (assuming that '>' is intended to represent conditionalization). A conditional may be either true of false consistently with the falsehood of its consequent. Also, 'it cannot be spoken' is certainly not contradictory. Of course, there are few things of which it is natural to say that they are spoken: languages, certain incantations, or perhaps texts that would normally be read rather than spoken. Many languages cannot be spoken by many people; perhaps some - ancient ones, for example - cannot be spoken at all. Whether or not it cannot be spoken depends on the referent of 'it'; there's nothing wrong with the form. More generally, to assert that something cannot be spoken is not to speak it, nor is to deny that something can be explained or expressed to explain or express it. " ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 12:11:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: Re: DIGEST option: how to get less messages In-Reply-To: <01HMZS9WRYRM9I8SNQ@asu.edu> actually I tried this last spring, got no messaes for 3 months, and then a single, roughly 200 screen (or more) message in September. Hence my interst in knowing how to turn the option off, just in case. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 14:39:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary X-To: Tom Mandel In-Reply-To: <199502110429.AA28492@panix.com> Also thanks to Don Byrd who at least refers to the next point in this discussion which is the multiplicity of relations between theory and poetry in the various poetries which this group is fond of referencing. A matrix of readings of poetries with their theoretical biases would be interesting to me, although obviously hypothetical as someone pointed out already. But as I have said the more articulate new responses today (Monday) only make we want the more to discuss how the main question for poets today, at least from my point of view, is the relationship of poetry to other disciplines to the shared, extended texts of science, law, fiction, news, philosophy, politics, medicine. This question applies to the role of poetry in the society and culture, to the uniqueness of poetry which Tom raises below, to the lineage of poetry itself which cannot be described in any one way because each new set of poetries redefines the history... I guess I don't think that there is any one way to view poetry so Tom's question can't be answered from here. But the relationship of poetry to other disciplines is periodically said to lead nowhere and someone last week referred to Lamb or another 19th century critic's approach that we need a point of view to avoid chaos. I guess chaos is chiefly what I'm after in the sense of a term that does not have apparent order but rather an underlying order and is both generative of order and subltly influencing more overt kinds of order with its own subversive similarities at different "levels" or on different scales. I don't have a good way to talk about this yet, but wanted to address the issue to the group, especially now that a wider purview is being taken on the subject. Jamse On Fri, 10 Feb 1995, Tom Mandel wrote: > re: James' "every poem has a theoretical basis," > > I think it's clear what that means if it is understood > more or less along the lines of 'every statement has a > theoretical basis' or 'every empirical fact has a > theoretical basis.' > > Is there some further sense, special to poetry, in > which each example has a theoretical basis (or > implies a theory, or however you'd formulate it)? > > Tom > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 15:38:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Lawrence Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Leeches Find Love > Subject: Leeches find love in intimate poet reaches > Copyright: 1999 by The Anti-Hegemony Project > Date: 0 May 99 10:20:30 EST > > Lines: 20 > > NEW YORK (AHP) - Bio-linguists have found the secret > trysting place for one species of academic leech and their > discovery explains why it remained unrevealed for so long -- its > home is inside a poet's rectum. > The leech, Criticarius Theoretici, is closely > associated with poets. The leech does not attach itself to any > other animal and has the same texture as a poet's thick hide. > ``New Scientist,'' in-house magazine for Lang-Po Labs, > quoted the researchers -- James Sherry of Bowery College and > Tom Mandel of Yorick University -- as saying they had found > several leeches inside the rectums of recently killed and > dissected poets. > The leeches were swimming around freely, rather than > > ---More--- > > Group bleari.poesy.animals available: 333 - 999 unread: 222 > > article 777 32-MAY-1999 20:30:40 > > > sucking blood, and had bulky sperm cases sticking out from their > bodies, leading the bio-linguists to believe they were mating. > Leeches are hermaphrodites, carrying both male and female sexual > organs. > ``There are obviously some very interesting adaptations,'' > Sherry said. ``But to find out more it would be necessary to > work with a live poet and that's a very dangerous creature.'' > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 18:00:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: p>q re parmenides, etc. p>q (if P, then Q) is TRUE WHENEVER p is FALSE --regardless of the truthvalue of q (.e.g. if a and not a, then (whatever), is ALWAYS true, whether whatever is true or false. So i can start from something that is false and say anything i want. check it out "i cannot speak OF x" is FALSE because i am speaking of x. ---------------------------------------------------------------- there are some poems such that they are poems and transparent ---- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 16:20:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Boy Talk Am I right that Rae Armantrout's comment about the San Diego Union article on Freely Espousing on February 3 (a full 10 days ago) was the last posting by a non-male reader of this list? What gives? It feels like the shower room at a men's health club.... Here's a question or two for (primarily) the non-males who read this list? Why do you lurk without posting? What would it require to change this? Are there other venues (listserv discussion groups in particular) where you are more active? If so, what do they do differently? Fraternally, Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 23:56:30 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: A Cockney Sparrow Tom, Mio apologia for taking liberty with language. Gone Skating (finagled from Arthur Dove) cris p.s. I also had missed the connection but 'O Sole Mio' is sang as 'Just One Cornetto' for a Walls Ice Cream ad on TV here which does seem to provide the basis for a sustainable connection, via this as yet unsubstantiated Pokey flavour from Auckland, between East London and Naples. Questions follow: 1.The East London version always starts with 'you put you left (whatever) leg in' and so on - I'm worried that the folk myth has got lost in its translation to connect Pokey with a reorientation towards the right foot, can you or anybody else here possibly clear this up? Otherwise the ramifications of possible relations between Losely (high culture ice cream manufacturers but arguably Cockney rhyming slang for Mosely - as in Oswald and his blackshirts, resurgent in East London even as we post) and Mussolini will lead to melted sleep. 2. Have I stumbled onto the origins of 'sang froid'. Sorry to labour this, love cris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 22:26:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Who Is That Masked Person? Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Point or Order, Ms. Chairman X-To: poetics@UBVMS.BITNET POINT OF ORDER, MS. CHAIRMAN, or "A Blow Is Like an Instrument" So a guy comes over to me, very agitated -- we're just a block from Lincoln Center, across the street from the new Sony Imax theater -- and he says, "How d'ya get to Carnegie Hall?" --"Theory." [blackout] Maybe the relation of theory practice is like the relation of strategy to tactics; then again, maybe theory's tactical and poems strategic. Or maybe it's like the relation of body to mind, or then again, mind to body (the best picture of an aesthetic is a work of art and vice versa). [blackout] [flashback, 1968] I theorize you theorize he/she/it theorizes we theorize you theorize they profit [blackout] "Theory enacted into writing practice is suspect, demeaned as unprofessional. But that is because theory so enacted ceases to be theory -- a body of doctrine -- insofar as it threatens with poetry or philosophy. Theory, prophylacticly wrapped in normalizing prose styles, is protected from the scourge of writing and thinking as active, open-ended, and investigatory. ... Can Continental philosophy be understood in the absence of Continental literature? Or does Continental philosophy without Continental literature equal American literary theory?" --from "Frame Lock", College Literature, Winter 1993 [blackout] Shorty Petterstein interview (Lenny Bruce) >How would you compare the kind of music you play with a, how would you >compare that with art, you know, what kind of art, artistic ...? Man like I think Art blows the most, I mean, uh, he came with the band about three years ago, man, dig, and, uh, like, he was a real uh you know small town cat -- and I mean he was swinging, man, but he was a small time cat. And I mean he started to blow with us and he was real nut, you know, cool. ... >What would you advise the young artist, the young musician, to do? Would you >advise him to get an academic education or strive immediately for self- >expression? Well, man, I mean, I'm a musician, dig. And I mean to me the most important this is that you should blow, you know. ... If a cat wants to blow and he wants to blow, and uh then he's got to have a scene where he can blow. >That would apply to the artists playing horns and wind instruments, they >would have to blow. What about those, for example, who are playing string >instruments? Or would you say, how's the picture there? Well, I mean, you know, it's, uh, pretty much all the same, man. A blow is like an instrument, you know. [blackout] POEM BEGINNING WITH A POORLY TRANSLATED LINE OF PESSOA So my wife says to me this morning As so often she has "Don't give me another one of your theories" --Charles Bernstein (C) 1995 Poets Ludicrously Aimless Yearning (PLAY) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 22:34:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: from Charlotte Pressler (fwrd): Little Mary Sunshine X-To: poetics@UBVMS.BITNET An error occurred while processing file 0318 from V273FS6S@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU: "Mail has been received for delivery to the POETICS list from a user which had been served out". ------------------- Message causing the problem (55 lines) -------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 20:36:51 -0500 (EST) From: Charlotte Pressler Subject: Little Mary Sunshine To: poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu Ron Silliman's question (why do so few women on this list post) tempts me to delurk briefly. I enjoy reading e-mail, including the poetics list -- but this form of communication, like any other, seems to have its strengths and limits. E-mail seems to me to be a good way to ask specific questions and communicate specific kinds of information rapidly and effectively (book lists, the Freely Espousing communiques, calls for papers). It's also a good way to argue positions for the most part already formed. The quick cut-and-thrust of single-screen messages, though, seems as though it might hamper the reception of more tentative or exploratory postings. People read their e-mail fairly quickly, and I don't think many people save it for later reading or download it to a printer. Disk space might be limited, too -- at least it is at UB. So, for the most part, once a message is scanned, however it's scanned, it's gone. Not much opportunity for re-vision. So, apart from its bulletin-board functions, e-mail seems to work best for people who like to respond quickly and concisely to well-defined arguments. I prefer to have a good bit of time to think over a written message, and to publish it in a format that allows for re-reading. I've stung myself in the past by offering too-rapid reactions; but I've also found that in sharp debate, reactive responses come to dominate over exploratory ones. So I find it best to work through my own often somewhat divergent responses to current topics either off-list, or in work written for print publication, or in conversation with friends. Possibly this is a gender difference; I'm not sure it's entirely that. There's also the uneasy position of divergences that don't quite attain to the sharp clarity of an oppositional statement. I tend to diverge in just this way -- should I call it "radical opacity"? :-) So I tend to lurk on lists, including this one. Apart from this post. Charlotte Pressler/v273fs6s@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu/SUNY at Buffalo Hear "The Lime Works" Thursdays 10 pm - 1 am on WRUB -- UB cable channel 7. Experimental/electro-acoustic/post-classical/improvised music and sound art. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 23:42:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: Espousing 2/13 *Correction to Arts Wire Congressional Schedule* *Good News from LitNet* *Bad News from the Midwest* *Action Hotlines* *NEH Annual Report* ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ *Correction to Arts Wire Congressional Schedule* On 10 Feb, Marshall Reese was kind enough to forward a posting from Arts Wire that included a tentative schedule of Congressional action affecting the NEA/NEH/IMS. The first item in that schedule, a Senate Subcommittee hearing of public NEA witnesses and NEH/IMS administration and public witnesses, has been moved back ten days. The Education, Arts & Humanities Subcomittee (chaired by James Jeffords, R-VT) will begin hearing these witnesses on 23 February. The relevant hearing this week is Thursday's meeting of the House Interior Appropriations Subcommittee (chair Ralph Regula, R-OH). Walter Cronkite, Ken Burns, and David McCullough are schedule to testify. *Good News from LitNet* Anne Burt at LitNet reports that 15,000 pieces of pro-NEA mail were delivered last week to the district office of Senator Slade Gorton (who chairs the Senate Appropriations Interior SubCom). Someone's doing a hell of a job organizing out there! Through a wonderful sequence of events, Anne has also gotten Tower Records/Books to commit to distributing LitNet materials in *all* their stores nationwide. The corporation has even volunteered to do displays about the NEA in each store. Once this plan is implemented, it may be useful to give local store managers a call & see what else they might be willing to do. In any case, a quick thank- you call seems warranted. *Bad News from the Midwest* The Mid-America Arts Alliance has "broken rank" with the National AAA and publicly called for the restructuring of the NEA. I don't have the details on this development, but the basic import of the gesture is easily enough understood. When you have State Arts Councils calling for their own "defunding" (they receive roughly 35% of their budget from NEA), things are bleak indeed. *Action Hotlines* When I spoke to a representative of the American Arts Alliance late last week, I was told that traffic on their 900 number was healthy (no precise figures were mentioned). Today, however, another source--not inside the AAA--reported that traffic is in fact disappointingly light (the figure mentioned was 3,500 calls since start-up). While we feel that these Hotlines fall on the passive/expensive side of possible efforts to preserve federal arts funding, they do represent something like the "least you can do." If you live in a state whose elected representatives in Congress oppose the NEA/NEH/IMS, please make an effort to circulate the numbers. Once again, the numbers are: Emergy Committee to Save Culture and the Arts 1-900-370-9000 (An operator will explain that the call costs $1.99 a minute and will ask permission to send a mailgram in the caller's name to his or her Representatives and Senators. Estimated total cost: $6-$8) Cultural Advocacy Campaign Hotline 1-800-651-1575 (An operator will describe the message and explain that for $9.50 three Western Union mailgrams will be hand-delivered the next day to the caller's Representatives and Senators). Note that neither of these systems permits you to direct mailgrams to Congressional representatives outside your state/district. *NEH Annual Report* On Friday, 9 February, President Clinton passed along the NEH annual report (1994) to the House and Senate with a brief message summarizing the "good works" performed by the Endowment in the past year. We reproduce Clinton's message below: To the Congress of the United States: I am pleased to present to you the Twenty-ninth Annual Report of the National Endowment for the Humanities (NEH), the Federal agency charged with fostering scholarship and imparting knowledge in the humanities. Its work supports an impressive range of humanities projects. These projects can reach an audience as general as the 28 million who watched the documentary Baseball, or as specialized as the 50 scholars who this past fall examined current research on Dante. Small local historical societies have received NEH support, as have some of the Nation's largest cultural institutions. Students from kindergarten through graduate school, professors and teachers, and the general public in all parts of the Nation have been touched by the Endowment's activities. As we approach the 21st century, the world is growing small and its problems seemingly bigger. Societies are becoming more complex and fractious. The knowledge and wisdom, the insight and perspective, imparted by history, philosophy, literature, and other humanities disciplines enable us to meet the challenges of contemporary life. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 00:24:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "B. Cass Clarke" Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Quan Yin Dear Ron, I read the list primarily for the anti-heg stuff, i.e. I will laugh at least once today. I would like to add to Charlotte Presler's remarks the following: Generally, the mechanics of vms mail editing is not intuitive. I have spent the last week learning how to file mail to folders. I learned the ins and outs of engine repair faster. The nature of these lists - they are generally anonymous. Although the poetics list relies more heavily on the signifying name than others, I feel like I'm walking into a room with a blind- fold on surrounded by others whose state is unknown. Under these conditions what is a toy and what a weapon? I've noticed there are whole trees devoted to teaching people how to inflect their remarks by using 8-) > type symbols. Obviously this media, or the people that write how-to books about it recognize there is some problem having to do with what is written and its intent. This list by its title invites writers to perform. So far, I've seen a series of challenges, duels and target practice. It is a public arena where we watch our gang try to make something of it. I suspect that if any real conversation gets generated, it does so off the public screen. I have found such correspondence through this list, and value that. Normally, I would post this to your e-mail address. But in the spirit of your inquiry, I reveal myself. B. Cass Clarke V080G6J3@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 01:30:04 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Spencer Selby Subject: Re: Deified Theories Limited In-Reply-To: <199502132055.MAA24078@slip-1.slip.net> I turned off my computer for a few days and here I have 50 new messages from the poetics list. Boy, it's like you turn away for a minute and you fall behind. What does this mean, and is it a coincidence that nearly all these messages are being written by men? Since I was pretty involved in the discussion last week, and since parts of the discussion over the weekend do relate to things I said, I do wish to respond--but forgive me if I am selective. There is no intention here to be reductive. Don Byrd says that poets who are not also self-professed theoreticians are irresponsible (my paraphrase, which I hope is not going to start another argument). I disagree strongly with this statement. I think Mr. Byrd's position here is significant because I believe something like this is what helps to underpin the privileging of theory which I see in Tom and James, and maybe others. I believe poetry and all art is an attempt at world making. It is on its own level because the worlds it creates are of a different order--from the world or worlds we live our entire lives in on one side, and all our explanations on another. To follow the analogy of this definition through: Is this multivalent world we live our entire lives in irresponsible because it did not come with a set of clear instructions? Is God irresponsible because s/he doesn't make herself clear (to most of us, at least), because s/he doesn't give all the people who use her creation a set of authentic, identifiable explanations to guide them, because she doesn't even make her existence clear to a large percentage of these people? If so, then I opt for irresponsibility over responsibility. I imagine Mr. Byrd will not be enamored with my reasoning, or the implications I draw from my world-making analogy. I admit that this comparison doesn't do justice to all the slipperiness of the issue at hand. I am not simply against responsibility any more than I think Mr. Byrd is simply for it. Obviously, judgment and balance of some sort is called for. The problem is, who do we trust to make these judgments? My Byrd says "the poetry that is of enduring interest ...incorporates its theory in the poems themselves." Of course that's true. In fact, I think that's one of the few points which has been made in this discussion that everyone may agree on. But there's no objective or foolproof way to gauge which poems do this successfully and which do not. On the contrary, these critical judgments tend to be notoriously subjective. This is a problem that most today play down or ignore or are downright naive about. I would not single out Mr. Byrd here, but at the same time I don't see that he's made much, if any, progress against this barrier. (As with Lew Daly, there seems to be quite a gap between Mr. Byrd's dramatic call for a new direction and the poets who he says might signal this direction. In both cases some good and/or accomplished poets, but it's difficult to believe that these midcareer poets represent anything that radically new or superior, compared with a lot of others working today.) James Sherry says that the problem with my statement about art being on its own level is it's hierarchical. James writes this in all caps, which I did not appreciate, but which I think may say more than the content of his statement. Since I first disagreed with James, I have gotten a series of responses in which he has expressed his impatience with me. James seems to think our disagreement is the result of my bad listening or my lack of knowledge or my inability to comprehend what he is saying. There may be some misunderstanding, but no more on my side than his. And I have not written statements in all caps, nor have I spoken down to him or implied annoyance that he would question me or my understanding of these issues. I have argued for art as being more than all these explanations. In doing this I have been drawn into the discourse. O.K. I admit that; I take responsibility for it. I even admit that my position is theoretical, in a sense. But please don't forget why I have made my statements. I am concerned about the limits and dangers of this discourse, which are all the greater for not being fully acknowledged. I see a need for questioning the high-minded tone and attitudes of self-importance which go along with much of this discourse. In saying I have more faith in art than in this discourse, I am accused of being hierarchical. But I believe it is those who have elevated this discourse that are putting themselves on a higher plane. Art or poetry is much more than this discourse (anyone's discourse), just as life is much more than the formulated knowledge we each or all have of it. In being more, art separates itself, but not so in the minds of some who speak so knowledgeably, so authoritatively on this forum. They prefer to argue about explanations that can never be effectively proven, explanations which may be opposed to the more expansive spirits of life and change and freedom and mystery that the best art celebrates. Missing this or deemphasizing it, no wonder they think so much of their explanations. Spencer Selby P.S. The above was written on Monday afternoon, before Ron's note about female nonparticipation appeared. I am happy that he said something about this, and that his statement is getting some reaction. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 01:36:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Spencer Selby Subject: Re: deified theories In-Reply-To: <199502121626.IAA20199@slip-1.slip.net> The meaning of "art" for me comes from all the art I've experienced, not the dictionary definition, nor anyone else's definition, semantic or otherwise. I believe this is true for other people too, even if they don't admit it. And that is why the word or concept does not become passe. I have used the word "art" interchangeably with poetry in much of the recent theory/practice discussion because I don't think the issues here (at least the aspects that I've tried to address) are exclusive to poetry. Spencer Selby On Sun, 12 Feb 1995, Loss Glazier wrote: > I, for one, have some problem with the word "art" when it comes up in > relation to theory. Theory I can see. There's a practical quality to > it. I mean you sit down and type it out. Whether the poem precedes > theory or the theory proceeds the poem is probably moot. But when does > the poem turn into "art"? Isn't this something left way behind > somewhere? Here's what the _American Heritage_ has to say about it: > > 1. Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract > the work of nature. 2.a. The conscious production or arrangement > of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a > manner that affects the sense of beauty, specifically the > production of the beautiful in a graphic or plastic medium. > > So maybe that's my difficulty with the term. It brings up the spectre > of those terms like the "beautiful" and "nature" which seem foreign to > activities that might have some application to our present > gatherings... > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 12:48:22 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: refried vocabulary vs. chaotic boundaries X-To: James Sherry James, I was quoting Mathew Arnold in 1849 who was obviously getting nervous towards his candle of coherence in expressing (to Clough) his need (which he hoped was more widely shared: 'to begin with an idea of the world in order not to be prevailed over by the world's multitudinousness' or rewritten / broken many ways 'to begin with an idea of the world in order not to be prevailed over by the world's multitiduinousness' and so on into variations. But then Arnold was the author of 'Culture and Anarchy'. Useful multiple edges inside that title too. This quote is contextualised by the 1851 Great Exhibition, of course - that first imperialist garnering of photography, science, technology, art, design, botany and more under 'one roof'. A multitude of information and influences and interfaces. The 'other' in 'our' midst. Certainly 'English' poetry, with notable exceptions has resisted that multitudinousness - not even through adopting an idea or even ideas in order but by retreating behind the net curtains of sentiment and identity. Chaos theory and analogy is wearing a tad thin, though I understand your condimental drift. To go along that path a little (and it's a steal) it's agreed that there is no possibility of accurately measuring the coastline of Ireland because even if all other terms and variables could be established as common at the outset by the time the full trajectory had been traversed the actuality would have changed through process of erosion. I'm keen on a poetry which engages with such slippage and makes its process sing. The inter-relations of inextricable detail between poetry and theory are those between positive and negative space or between improvisation and composition - Or as Raymond Chandler put it (I like these hard-boiled-noses / heavy academic references best): 'down at the corner was dust in the air, as though a car had passed that way' good to meet up with you again cris > on 13/2/95 James Sherry wrote 'someone last week referred to Lamb or another > 19th century critic's approach that we need a point of view to avoid chaos'. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 12:48:34 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Boys and Toys Talking X-To: Ron Silliman Ron, you're right. It's an issue. But it seems to me, from a rough count, that the imbalance of posts approximates the imbalance in subscribers to the list. About 1:6? Approaching that level of discrepancy (well maybe 1:4) has been echoed both among practitioners and audience at events in England. Although there has been movement towards improvement over the past three years or so. I'm keen on using and exploring the use of e-mail having been such a terrible correspondent for ever since. I'm new to this list and am enjoying the mix of agendas. Putting in the necessary time with technology is not a boys own thing. There is a problem though to be acknowledged between the speed of posting and more reflective responses. It puts extra pressure on the reflective to be more 'polished' which is unfortunate. The rough and conversational aspects of this site for exchange and engagement is what attracts myself and probably creates resistance in others. No suggestion here that reflection is gendered. However it might be the train-spotting or jazz buff nature of rapid response postings which is most gendered and off-putting. And anonymity might help a lot. None of this is an attempt to explian away. Glad you've raised it and hope the response is constructive as it appears to be so far. In anticipation - I never saw it as a health spa, can't we meet somewhere more social? Ira recently raised a clear point about what passes unchallenged here. cris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 05:50:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Anon I love it when people sign their posts... I get this list both at home and at work. At home, NetCruiser gives me pretty detailed stuff not just on who originated the message, but their email address as well. At work, I'm using Lotus Notes and it only tells me that these messages are from POETICS, so it's a curiously disembodied discussion. I've reread long chains of letters at home at night just to see who wrote them. Thanks, Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 09:38:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: p>q re parmenides, etc. ok, i can't resist this thread: p>q statements are false ONLY if p is true and q is false... which means, against a truth-table grid, that only 25% of the logical possibilities are false... which means that it's logically (and statistically) likely to say something logically true given this construction.... BUT recall (if this is old hat for any of you) that p>q is not a statement of causality per se... that is, it's not that p affects (or effects) q... though of course the logic behind why p>q is true whenever p is false would seem to invoke a mild form of causality... it's not surprising that logic yields counter-intuitive results (science and engineering do too)... or perhaps one's intuition needs to be twisted some... as to the example given, "if a and not a, then (whatever)," this would be said to be vacuously true in that "if a and not a" is taken ALWAYS (in this logic, anyway) to be false... or perhaps that should better read "true vacuously"... what's interesting to me is why this has become a topic on poetics... i mean, it's baby logic in philosophy circles, and even computational theory textss make short order of this stuff... i'm not saying that it's irrelevant, but i am saying that i find it a curious thread around here... perhaps it's the reference to wittgenstein, but i mean, like, he said so damned much, ultimately, anyway, you will all probably note that i find it titillating myself, given my former math. background... so mea culpa!... joe amato ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 10:54:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: reified names vs. boundless vocabulary Mark Wallace, claims that one has to be "theory" to be heard. Heard by whom, Mark? and to what end? Is theory a kind of dress-code? Will they cut the NET (National endowment for THeory)? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 10:24:51 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: gender... i guess i feel mouthy today... i like ron silliman's having called attention to the fact that this list has taken on a boys' club aura... this has happened, inevitably, to most lists on which i've participated... given the reality of something like 80-90% internet traffic being generated by males, it's a statistical likelihood that most posts will be from men... but this doesn't explain the relative silence of women in a given venue... what generally happens is what's happening now---one of the men (in this case ron) notices that women are not participating, and posts this fact... and a few women write in and attempt to convey some sense of their feeling not esp. motivated to participate... not always, but usually one of the reasons given is the fact that they find the space to be 'agon-izing,' a "series of challenges," as b. cass clarke has it... that is, usually, but not always, some element of gendering, however subtly construed, would seem to be at work in creating a less-than-generous ambience (shall we say)... and usually, but not always, a few male subscribers react rather unfavorably to this charge, and a few react rather favorably... and usually, but not always, this leads to a further dispute twixt the men, again... i tend these days to try to understand these virtual environments in terms of a dialectic (initially, anyway) of immersion and withdrawal---what could be taken as a requisite couple for artistic work in general... in any case, i've noted consistently that discussions in which the disputants are male invariably draw on those theories that manage to abstract out the more personal site(s) from which (whatever) work emerges... there would seem to be the need to invoke a lineage of thinkers, most of them male, a necessity for moving toward higher and higher levels of abstraction... i don't have much in the way of antidote to this (at least in part because i'm, uhm, male) but i *do* believe that much of what might pass as irrelevant to some on this list in fact has a place in these proceedings... by way of example, i posted to this list some time ago a rather lengthy, perhaps pedantic response to apex of the m that tried to account for *who* i am vis-a-vis many of you... perhaps some of you find/found this aspect of exchange unnecessary (and i understand that i risk criticism here for attempting to privilege my own discursive orientation, but what the hell)... that is, we don't really know each other, many of us, and much of this discussion BECOMES agon-izing simply because we (incl. myself) haven't taken the time that perhaps we should to have developed and cultivated a sense of trust... i mean, i can stand the heat, so to speak, as i'm sure can many of you, but this is not a reason for coming together---here, there or anywhere... so i guess i'd have to opt for a more revealing, a closer encounter with each of you, however you each might wish to engender same... best, joe amato ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 10:33:16 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: oh & yeah... happy valentine's day, folks! love & kisses, joetomato ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 11:58:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: baby logic joe, grownup logic has not improved on baby logic so far. ------- I am sure you rmember that in order to prove anything logically we have to start the null set (the nothing that IS!). Underlying ALL logic (baby & grownup) is th which P is the null set. Since Parmenides thought that the null set was false (for him there is no 'nothi is that any NOT entails an absence (which is a nothing) so Parmenides was just a tricky dude (a poet, you might say, who thought of the impossibility of change while changing his clothes, etc.) In theory he would not have been able to deny anything or assert anything. But he was just like any of us. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 12:30:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AA1464@ALBNYVMS.BITNET Subject: Home of the Creepy Crawlies Subject: Home Of The Creepy-Crawlies Copyright: 1999 by The Anti-Hegemony Project Date: 20 Jun 99 05:10:15 EST Lines: 89 PROVIDENCE (AHP) -- The Poetarium is unlike most museums you've visited. It's located in a Providence working-class neighborhood with bridal shops, bakeries and bars on every block, about 10 miles from Brown University. When you get there, you've got to climb a flight of stairs. Suddenly, you realize you're in the middle of more than 100,000 live poets, the kind that go ``buzz'' in the night. Children, especially, love it. More than 75,000 visitors -- mostly pre-teens -- file into the poetry zoo each year, paying $3 apiece to be up close and personal with the creepy, crawly inmates. Hundreds of school field trips have already been scheduled for 1999. ---More-- Group bleari.poesy.animals available: some - more unread: lots article whatever 31-JUL-1999 19:30:30 ``It's not only entertaining, it's also educational and enlightening,'' says Steve Evans, the 30-year-old museum founder and proprietor of Steve's Bug-Off Poet Exterminating Co., located on the building's ground floor. The Poetarium occupies 6,500 square feet on the two top floors. This is the real deal, no cheesy rip-off filled with first editions and photographs. Evans says it's the largest in the country. ``The Smithsonian poetry exhibit in Washington has less square footage and I've got a million more poets still in storage,'' says Evans, proudly displaying a room overflowing floor-to-ceiling with boxes, cookie tins and Tupperware filled with dead poets from around the globe. ``I respect what they're doing. Their staff is extremely knowledgeable and they really do a great job teaching the kids,'' said Robert Bertholf of the Poetry and Rare Book Room in Buffalo, which has its own extensive collection. ``Steve has even come in here and set up some wonderful exhibits, very professional stuff,'' Bertholf said. ---More--- Group bleari.poesy.animals available: some - more unread: lots article whatever 31-JUL-1999 19:30:30 The Poetarium is designed to give the illusion of being out in the wild. The walls are decorated in a bar motif, the carpets are cigarette-butt strewn and the soundtrack is poetry's own -- Amy Lowell chirping and Carl Sandburg humming. Movies, holograms, microscopes and professional quality exhibits and games keep people of all ages occupied. There is also a real swarming beatnik read-in and a giant rubber-band ``enjambement'' for children to crawl through. Electronic quizboards measure your poetry intelligence. For example, did you know that New York School poets could survive on just the food offered at gallery openings? that Hip-Hop poets have more than 1,000 ``brothers'' and ``sisters'' each? And yes, Language Poets really do bite, but maybe they're only angry about having a 12-month lifespan. There's even a scale to weigh yourself in New Critics, New Formalists and other six-legged creatures. If you thought losing 10 pounds was difficult, imagine shedding a half-million versifiers! Robert Pinsky, Eugenio Montale, Gottfried Benn, Edith Sitwell, Aime Cesaire, Jean Toomer, Ingeborg Bachmann, Rabindranath ---More--- Group bleari.poesy.animals available: some - more unread: lots article whatever 31-JUL-1999 19:30:30 Tagore, Phyllis Webb, Pablo Neruda, Carl Dennis, bpNichol, Sappho, Jack Gilbert, Alan Gilbert, Allen Ginsberg and Gilbert Grape are all present. ``Everyone here is really nice. It's not scary,'' said Jessica Lowenthal, 22. ``I had lots of fun.'' The centerpiece of the Poetarium is the pedants. Thousands and thousands of good old ``poeticus obscurorum'' -- stuffed shirts -- encased inside a four-foot plastic fence that surrounds a model library and study. The repulsive critters slither in and out of the cabinets and drawers and occasionally attempt to scale the wall. ``I promise you, they can't get out of there,'' says Evans's partner, Jennifer Moxley, the curator and one of the tour guides. ``There's a Teflon paint strip at the top which makes them slide back down. If they get past that, there's a row of electrical wires.'' Numerous poetry-related items are available in the gift shop, including posters, T-shirts, coloring books, postcards and plastic Vincent Ferrinis. Many of the poets are captured by Evans and his staff, especially service director and exhibit designer Peter Gizzi, a ---More--- Group bleari.poesy.animals available: some - more unread: lots article whatever 31-JUL-1999 19:30:30 longtime poetry collector. Using butterfly nets and riding a mountain bike painted camouflage green and brown, Gizzi rolls into the wilds of nearby New York City and sees what he can snare. For Evans, life's metamorphosis was a little more complex than word-larva-pupa-poet. He began while a graduate student, working on the side as a lobbyist for poetic environmentalists. This led to opportunities in poetry population control. But he still prefers collecting to killing the poets, and in 1997 Evans opened the museum. ``We used to have a smaller store, and we'd put whatever we caught each day in the front window -- short story writers, translators,'' Evans says. ``People were looking in the windows all the time. Teachers even brought their classes by. I thought this would be a great way to teach kids that poets aren't bad, once you get to know them.'' So what's next for Evans? Would you believe a poetrymobile? ``I'm converting an old paddy wagon,'' he says. ``Look for us at a school or mall or senior center near you.'' ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 12:39:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: p>q re parmenides, etc. If memory serves me rightly, the classic work on counterfactual conditionals (p>q, where p=f) was dont by... Nelson Goodman? is that the name? in the forties..... for those who are interested. Tm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 12:48:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: Leeches Find Love X-To: Nick Lawrence In-Reply-To: <199502140118.AA17194@panix3.panix.com> SHOULD WE OUT, BEN f? OR IS HE SELF OUTED? Some are too cruel, like the Watten one, for him to continue to hide, sniveling in the mire of his own petulence. But fabulous anyway. If I am wrong, I'll eat cake. Jmaes On Mon, 13 Feb 1995, Nick Lawrence wrote: > > Subject: Leeches find love in intimate poet reaches > > Copyright: 1999 by The Anti-Hegemony Project > > Date: 0 May 99 10:20:30 EST > > > > Lines: 20 > > > > NEW YORK (AHP) - Bio-linguists have found the secret > > trysting place for one species of academic leech and their > > discovery explains why it remained unrevealed for so long -- its > > home is inside a poet's rectum. > > The leech, Criticarius Theoretici, is closely > > associated with poets. The leech does not attach itself to any > > other animal and has the same texture as a poet's thick hide. > > ``New Scientist,'' in-house magazine for Lang-Po Labs, > > quoted the researchers -- James Sherry of Bowery College and > > Tom Mandel of Yorick University -- as saying they had found > > several leeches inside the rectums of recently killed and > > dissected poets. > > The leeches were swimming around freely, rather than > > > > ---More--- > > > > Group bleari.poesy.animals available: 333 - 999 unread: 222 > > > > article 777 32-MAY-1999 20:30:40 > > > > > > sucking blood, and had bulky sperm cases sticking out from their > > bodies, leading the bio-linguists to believe they were mating. > > Leeches are hermaphrodites, carrying both male and female sexual > > organs. > > ``There are obviously some very interesting adaptations,'' > > Sherry said. ``But to find out more it would be necessary to > > work with a live poet and that's a very dangerous creature.'' > > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 12:53:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: FUNKHOUSER CHRISTOPH Subject: Trade Subject: Buffalo trades Howe to Naropa for three players Copyright: 1999 by The Anti-Hegemony project Date: 20 Feb 99 01:03:05 EST Lines: 19 BUFFALO (AHP) - The struggling Buffalo Poetics Program sent high profile scorer Susan Howe to the Naropa Institute yesterday for veteran wingers Bobbie Louise Hawkins and Anselm Hollo plus minor league defensewoman and recent NEA recipient Eleni Sikelianos. The Program, which has only one win in its last five semesters, also sent a third-round pick in the 1999 admissions draft to the Institute as part of the deal. Howe, who logged over a million miles last season to lead the Program in travel time, had just two insights and three inspired outbursts for five points in Buffalo's first 4 weeks this year. Hawkins and Hollo both played a significant role in Naropa's last Holy Grail season, in 1993. In brief stints with the parent ---More--- Group bleari.sports.poesy available: 11000 - 11987 unread: 1 article 11986 21-FEB-1999 23:32:00 club, Sikelianos has shown a great deal of promise. Hollo has six insights, Sikelianos has three insights and Hawkins has one inspired outburst and four insights for five points in 4 weeks this year. All three players are expected to be in uniform tomorrow night when Buffalo hosts the Southern California Sun & Moons. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 13:10:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: FUNKHOUSER CHRISTOPH Subject: Re: AHP In-Reply-To: <199502141751.MAA07959@sarah.albany.edu> from "James Sherry" at Feb 14, 95 12:48:44 pm > > SHOULD WE OUT, BEN f? OR IS HE SELF OUTED? Some are too cruel, like the > Watten one, for him to continue to hide, sniveling in the mire of his own > petulence. But fabulous anyway. If I am wrong, I'll eat cake. Jmaes > JS You (pl.) can OUT whomever you like, but to attempt to ascribe the work of the Anti-Hegemony Project to any one individual would constitute a whale-sized inaccuracy. So, bon appetite chris f ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 12:20:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: baby logic jorge, yes, it's that grownup logic IS baby logic, exactly... a knotty conundrum, reminds me of mark taylor's disquisitions in _nOts_... the tautology "a or not a" hits at precisely this, where "a" is the null set... so we opt for something ex nihilo, or the nothing that is there... what a revoltin' predicament!... joe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 13:23:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: from Charlotte Pressler (fwrd): Little Mary Sunshine X-To: Charles Bernstein In-Reply-To: <199502140647.AA03670@panix4.panix.com> Re Pressler's remark, I have just written a message with almost thesame concerns to Charles Bernstein about why I included a message to which I was responding in my response. For me the quickness and ease of response on the list is contrasted with the necessity to have a measured response. This is a hard place to get to when I have mostly either had easy and extended exchanges with corrections in conversation OR thought out slow exchanges by articles, letters, etc. I think it's the newness of the medium and the unusual nature of the way we must respond. Thanks Charlotte for your message. Jamses SHerry ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 13:29:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: p>q re parmenides, etc. correct tom, "goodman's paradox" etc... _the structure of appearance_, _fact, fiction and forecast_ (both in the 50s)... goodman for some an extreme nominalist... joe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 15:01:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: refried vocabulary vs. chaotic boundaries X-To: cris cheek In-Reply-To: <199502141246.AA27099@panix4.panix.com> Am I to understand that Arnold was attacking the premise of the 1851 Great Exhibition? What a fantastic citation. The notion of slippage and further of how order slips in to turbulence is at the ehart of wht I 'd like to accomplish at hte outset, but later I'd like a further. And in that sense the poetry might come after writing (yet another insidious distinctino which won't hold up). Yes hello again. Jamse ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 15:39:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: theory and being heard Chris Stroffolino asks me to answer "being heard by whom" when I suggest that "to be heard you have to call yourself a theory." And yet, Chris, we both know that we both can barely afford a bus trip to NYC, although I have to admit that I did recently splurge and buy myself a new winter coat because the old one was starting to stink. Clearly, no one's being "heard" at all. But if I don't call myself a theory I know for a fact I'm out of work. On the other hand, perhaps there is a certain romantic charm in "living the free life of a roaver" and I'm just busy playing it up for ratings. See you on Letterman. mark wallace ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 13:11:35 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Spencer Selby Subject: Re: deified theories and unfounded vocabularies In-Reply-To: <199502130419.UAA17132@slip-1.slip.net> Dear Charles, Yes, Don Bryd's statement on the relationship of poetry to theory is too pat. And so are some of Tom's and some of James' and others. And so are some of mine. I admit it. In being drawn into the discourse, I have been forced to formulate my position in a way that is not entirely satisfying to me. No matter how I formulate it, it will not be entirely satisfying to me. It is not just the formulations of others that I am dissatisfied with. This is the paradox of my antitheoretical position. I do not want to create a "true theory" around my statements about art being on its own level. Art is separate and it is not. That is how I really feel. I have emphasized the former because I do not like the way the theorists assume or reason (or pontificate) from the latter. The problem with this is, it seems like I am only aware of the failure of theory, and that I have this unbounded, starry-eyed faith in the power of art. That is not the case. There is a sense in which art and theory are connected in their failure to fully impact people's lives. I tend to blame theory for its failure, but the people (both artist/poets and viewer/readers) for the failure of art. My lifelong experience has encouraged this distinction, but like any prejudice I know that it is not always accurate. To be continued... For now, I thank you for your question and thoughts. Spencer On Sun, 12 Feb 1995, Mn Center For Book Arts wrote: > Generally I like to refer to Deleuze & Guattari, but I do believe that > the relations between/among "book" & "literature" are entirely > problematic, and I can more easily embrace the concept of book as machine > than literature as one. > > I also find most statements that, as D. Byrd says, poems "incorporate" > theory to be too pat. They may do so, but hopefully in a way which > enables both theory and poetry to be anything but dogmatic and > inflexible. > > Please explain, Spencer, what "level" art has. Art has its own level, is > this like one of Dante's circles in the Inferno, or somewhere up some > other cosmological ladder? Can art or theory really be divided so clearly > from one another or from any number of other practices we can name, like > work, state, love, morality? > > charles alexander > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 16:32:18 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kali Tal Subject: Re: Boy Talk Ah, drawn out of lurkdom by provocative questions.... tho I must admit, quite sheepishly, to be responding in *exactly* the spirit that Joe Tomato has described--I do so hate to be predictable... >Why do you lurk without posting? Well, I *don't* really lurk without posting. A couple of weeks ago I wrote a fairly lengthy post describing *why* I feel--as a publisher and editor of two poetry series and miscellaneous individual volumes of poetry, *and* as a literary critic with "academic" credentials--like an outsider in the POETICS conversation. My post met with resounding ... silence. Didn't garner a single response on the list, though I did get backchannel notes from my old friend Joe (hi Joe!) and from Charles Bernstein (hi Charles!). I've been active on the internet for a while, and I don't take nonresponse personally, but it *does* generally seem to conform to a pretty gendered (and racialized) pattern. Since my concerns revolve primarily around issues of how race/gender/class interact with the theory and practice of "culture" and "art" (including poetry), whenever I post, I bring up these issues. Nonresponse is something I've certainly gotten used to. Now I tend to post only when I feel that I've got something pressing to say, and when I am met with nonresponse, I usually let the matter slide, *unless* "becoming visible" seems like a battle worth fighting in this particular place at this particular time. >What would it require to change this? Oh, it would be easy to get *me* to post more.... But it would require that someone(s) actually engage me in public conversation, offer a response to my words. Think of the studies of male/female conversations which demonstrate that women introduce a wider variety of subjects than men, but that fewer of the subjects they introduce are picked up and expanded on. And the ones which show that when a woman brings up an idea it's often ignored, *until* a man brings it up--at which point he gets the credit for thinking of it and she continues to be ignored. These patterns are evident in email as well as in face-to-face conversations. But email is even more difficult for a woman to negotiate, in my opinion, because the lack of physicality, the reduction to a textual "body," makes it harder for her to be SEEN/READ. Look at it this way--email is one of the few environments in which anyone and everyone can "pass" as white, heterosexual, and male unless he/she speaks/writes out *against* that normative body. Now, there are advantages to being able to "pass" in this manner (advantages that members of marginalized groups have always gained from passing), but there are also costs. The advantages are clear for women--no sexual harrassment, no more being ignored, no more being marked as "other." But the disadvantage is that passing requires adopting the language and interests and *style* of the folks you are passing *as,* and so concerns and questions and styles that might be significant to a woman *as a woman* become unspeakable. On the other hand, in this environment in which everyone can "pass," it takes constant vigilance and a great deal of ingenuity to create and perpetuate a *nonwhite* *nonmale* and/or *nonheterosexual* textual body--difference must be inscribed in each post in a way that makes it visible to the reader. The paradox is that "passing" allows women and nonwhite people to be "visible" in the sense that they are not treated as "other," but it is predicated on the disappearance of gender/racial identity. On the other hand, refusing to "pass," and insisting on inscribing a nonwhite or nonmale identity in our email results, often, in our being "disappeared" in the manner in which women and nonwhite people are "normally" disappeared. The entrenchment of the normative construct in espace (which I tend to think of as The Unbearable Whiteness of Being) makes me feel a lot like Ellison's Invisible Man--I've *been* in flamewars in which I have textually kicked the shit out of people who simply COULD NOT SEE ME. (And if you haven't reread the opening sequences of _Invisible Man_ it might be worth going back to, since it sums up *exactly* the phenomenon I am describing.) >Are there other venues (listserv discussion groups in particular) where >you are more active? I used to be very active on quite a few lists. I'm the Typhoid Mary of flame wars--where I post frequently, they usually become epidemic. In my Bad Old Days I could come out swinging against racist or sexist exclusion in discussions and rile folks up so bad that hitherto peaceful (read: "homogenous") espace communities would polarize and then shatter. Grown men would act like children and storm off lists or publicly swear that they were never going to read another one of my posts. Heck, I've pissed people off so badly over email that at least one has, in all seriousness, threatened my life. (And yeah, those threats of violence--and implied rape--were gendered, too...) But I don't do much of that sort of posting anymore. Mostly, I just needed to experiment with it for a while to figure out how it worked. And I concluded, after some very serious thought and long study, that there was no way for me to *be* visible "here" in any of the ways which mattered to me. So I now confine my occasional public espace forays to "raids across the border," with the intent of making the population nervous, while at the same time escaping without serious wounds. And I have *always* figured that the only way to create a "level playing field" is to build it yourownself, so I got together with some like-minded people and started SIXTIES-L, a moderated discussion list in my field of study. I don't even post *there* that often, but it is definitely a woman-friendly space, as is demonstrated by the high percentage of women posting to it. Which brings me to the next question: >If so, what do they do differently? Well, it seems to me that moderated spaces, or restricted-access spaces provide a more hospitable environment for women. I've been on women's-only lists, and in those places women have no trouble posting at all. As I said, on SIXTIES-L we moderate the discussion, and one of our rules is that we don't allow ad hominem attacks: you can harsh on people's *arguments* or *texts* all you like, but you can't slam their characters. This level of protection (applied equally to men and women) might have something to do with the higher percentage of women posting on our list. The only unmoderated list I know of which supports an overwhelming percentage of female posters is WMST-L, the Women's Studies list for educators and academics. WMST-L is technically unmoderated, but Joan Korenman is one of the most competent and active "nonmoderators" it's ever been my pleasure to observe in action. WMST-L might work so well precisely because it *is* mainly populated by feminists--and not only feminists, but women specifically dedicated to the work of building Women's Studies as a field. Hey, Ron, thanks for asking... Best, Kali Tal _____________________ Kali Tal Sixties Project & Viet Nam Generation, Inc. 18 Center Rd., Woodbridge, CT 06525 203/387-6882; fax 203/389-6104 email: kalital@minerva.cis.yale.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 17:44:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: ex nihilo Joe, didn't the big bang "take" (ho, ho, ho) "place" (hee, hee, hee) in the Nothing that Was? How great it is not to be uptight about the meaning of the words we use. i am letting that feeling underlie everything i say. For no matter what you do, people will process everything through their very personal devices that genetic noise shaped. Don't you feel the same way? jorge =========================================================================