========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 15:34:42 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: back to poetry X-To: LS0796%ALBNYVMS.bitnet@vm1.spcs.umn.edu 'bridle' First off I Trash myself - before some Other does the same. Regardless of the dark it seems the lights keep coming on and On. Lured out, then abandoned into a deadly, sickening animal fear. Until there's no skin to speak of Recognition branding pain and frustration with displacement given on a whiplash tongue to a child. The bitter teachings of distance and misappropriation. Re-cognitive maps of will ways despised by those who seek to foster reductive - person think something "you piece of kit!" that sells their stuff to factor in the morality of exporting what it's all about the public demand (or 'perceived need') for sacrificial niche identities. A sound of sense coming to be in a world. Were shafts awkwardly work at a flickering consciousness in tendered servant hothouses of idling memories curdled by ignorance. - and lives wiped out and houses shut up without cause - The plain of knowing being flood. Sprung linnet hoop. Put sugar, orders clap of got to go bye byes description of - meat eating vegetables and Time junkies. Pitching to foil a perk, scribbled with loss. And other such dung - holed evasions of purpose. Each market forbidding engagement. A peak to be severed from hope. That chart-topping heartstopping moment. Behind a bleak and carping register of modal verbs traced against peeping through ever more grotesque zooms. A boggered nostril caught in the planed light of beams from painted cradles. Fishing stagnant waters to dish up stagnant melodies. And to suppress a rising mange of panic. The respondent bugle, scraping its "good security leads to no events" head between rusting bars. Planting weary hands in beds of freezing mortar. To reach in a blaze for the parched meal of splinters and of back teeth ground beyond dust by impoverished logic. Or a metaphoric birth dote racked by incident detours. Implied to go through as motions to a shower that trucks chuck up a windscreen wiper rhythm interfering with a Buddhist ceremony on the radio. Announcements unafraid of nurture. This book of cares is dry. The citizens are poor but happy. "Tape!", so jack these frequencies can plausibly deny - a bat slum out of plight school. A peculiar bait. Heavy blisters form throat - shadey pop tune the following pepsi committee. Signed flock purple pussy wrench this thicket me to locate it - exhausted successfully. And I said "eat my belt" and How These are the lines I was told to remember. As points of entry. And a cuss to retard longing how could it happen that. Because here they are loved for what they are. By choice like a bomb had "Hit it" - king for the final . . . cut. By comforting a horny level of amenity. As observing through windows discouraged in contemporary painting a reflecting reader coned under bedside light puking into a potty, a salutary present from those who most - and yet it blends retrenchment with deceit through what little tenacity is brought impeculiar to its makers an elite which will not be defined by its language use into a caricature of rebellion, installed without support. A newsreader arranges her blindfold, with a hook removed to offer the continuity of the timetable. Voice protection to remember, re-entered a refired theatre of gall. Demonstrated by a schedule of contemplation. Jelly records, hugging bones flooded with brawn. Hallucinating where griddle details organise a bleeding lamb to jut. Until Security Customers talked in couscous reversals among whom familarity was invested. A likeness which embraces its past, the speculative, to a point - recess. Touchstones denying compromise gone hungry so that thought an extension of interract street the environment shot among movements expressing resentment. Root embroidery - and when educated precedent neglected out of numb developed hop. An obvious stubble, a sporting crash to end public key block. Sharing regarded as a work shy Slack who tore open his face in a fit cut bruised wood to quicken who swears where she was when the papers caught up with her. A planed wrong number framed trespassing hearts of oak potted for mounting anything having the ashes of imperative attributes and whenever selected desirable such. White smoothed paint and then the slogans of 'this is happening' then 'history is plainly facts'. Providing clues to the origin of that well-known phrase so to 'peter the lily'. Head face her in a camera stinging black words. Written open pump of used to sing The Muddle. Does a boat exude it when its user isn't there? Bathed with scurrilous juices whose fingers of laminate "Cane!?". A cocked snoot, a hot slop out from night school. Dis Colored might, rough tuning on a wall. Mirrors her blood may be a density of emulate occurence. A complexity impossible to fix with an uncertain talent for introspection. Blue increment rain. A Hermeneutics of suspicion ushering the clashes of sentience towards panorama. A simplicity of joy due to intense engagement. A restless itch along bones. A bleat swarm above harbour. A paramount involvement of performance with concepts of utopia. Fearing the ghosts of understatement and the giants of trite. Put metals of reality I too inhabit and yet cannot 'in up to the elbows'. I can touch. And wake about to die. Back to the wall kissing a tourist with a camcorder. Stopping to film a street cough in her soggy box. Look how he Steadies how poses this picture - 'The Song of The Sleeve' - in the process of doing which tourist . Gendered in a motivating force died rocking. Making Content strange. Reading maps requiring other maps tortured and startled beyond recognition. and having ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 10:27:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Responsibility nothing oblique, no waving, just a rope over the bannister. who said "i thought they were friends, but they were really poets" or something to that effect. corso? i can't place it. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 08:40:48 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lindz Williamson Subject: sappho In-Reply-To: <199503311719.JAA29260@unixg.ubc.ca> On Fri, 31 Mar 1995, Bill Luoma wrote: > Sappho--poikilothron' athanat' aphrodita > > > Thronechanging amortal Aphrodite, > child of Zeus deceit weaver, Hey Lady, > don't break my heart on the yoke > of grief and ailment. > > But come on down. Do you remember when > you answered my call? It was a long distance > and you listened and left your father's > golden dome, > > having yoked the chariot. The beauties > led you, swift sparrows over black earth, > dense feathers cutting spirals from heaven > to the middle of air. > > They arrived on a dime, with blessed you > smiling the amortal smile. And you asked: > "What's all this then? Why do you bother > to call? > > How far across the nation did your heart > range this time? Whose pretty little head > can I turn your way? O Sappho, who's been > so mean to you? > > Listen, if she hides now, soon she will seek. > If she won't say thankyou, soon she'll say please. > If she doesn't want it now, soon she'll be wanting, > but not willingly." > > > Come on. Loose me far away from high > anxiety. However much my little heart > wants to consume, you consummate. You, > yourself, stand by my side. > But here' the translation that I have: Release me from my cruel anxiety To Aphordite Aphordite on your intricate throne, immortal, daughter of Zues, weaver of plots, I beg you, do not tame me with pain or my heart with anguish but come here, as once before when I asked you, you heard my words from afar and listened, and left your father's golden house and came you yoked your chariot, and lovely swift sparrows brought you, fast whirling over dark earth from heavan through the midst of the bright air and soon arrived. And you, O blessed goddess, smiled with your immortal face and asked what was wrong with me, and why did I call now, and what did I most want in my maddened heart to have for myself. 'Whom now am I to persuade to your love, who Sappho, has done you wrong? For if she flees, soon she'll pursue you, and if she won't take gifts, soon she'll give them, and if she won't love, soon she will love you, even if she doesn't want to.' Come to me now again, release me from my cruel anxiety, accomplish all that my heart wants accomplished. You, join my battle. Sappho Not knowing how to read Greek how do I know who has the better or more accurate translation? Lindz ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 14:23:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Blair Seagram Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 28 Mar 1995 to 29 Mar 1995 In-Reply-To: <199503300842.DAA03878@panix3.panix.com> Dear Lintz: I've just read your message and I knew I was getting into trouble when I started that 1st paragraph but I just let it go. Actually, when I was writing that, I was thinking of a painting by Goya called *3 May 1808* and a painting inspired by Goya's, by Manet, called *Execution of Emperor Maximilian, 1867*. You see I can appreciate what is happening in these paintings and I am moved by them. But I believe I am moved because of the person who painted them more than by the historical facts. In the same vein there have been photographs in the New York Times that blew me away they were so powerful. It is true the subject matter may have been dramatic, but the skill and sensitivity that went into them, has much to do with my reaction. What I am saying, and I would like to pick this up later (I have to meet someone in 10 minutes) is that politics alone will never make art even if that is the premise on which it is or was created. Finally we are left with something more, what I call the residue. Actually that is more or less the way I feel about art and life. The art I make, if in fact I make any, is really the left over energy from living, the residue. What's left at the end of the day. That may seem terrible to you but it is what I feel in these times. bs ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 14:28:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: art as residue at the end of the day art is what's left of arthur after part of the hurt is removed ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 22:45:58 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: Responsibility >nothing oblique, no waving, just a rope over the bannister. who said "i thought >they were friends, but they were really poets" or something to that effect. >cors >o? i can't place it. ok Rapunzel, I'm coming up love cris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 15:54:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: Responsibility >ok Rapunzel, I'm coming up >love cris I was surprised to find such a sexy message on the poetics listserve. Dodie Bellamy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 19:42:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kenneth Goldsmith Subject: POETICS READING LIST MARCH 1995 (long) POETICS READING LIST FOR MARCH 1995 Here's a first attempt at establishing a community reading list resource. Thanks for the many responses. I will try to post an updated list monthly and this will depend on your participation. Please feel free to post what you're reading or what you're currently obsessed with and I will collect 'em as they come in. (Or, if you don't want to junk up the list with info that will be posted later, email me privately kgolds@panix.com). --Kenneth Goldsmith ------------------------------ From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Re: Goldsmith's Top 10 request 1. Aristotle's _On the Art of Poetry_. Section 20, focussing on linguistic definitions. 2. Charles Lamb's _Selected Prose_. As Adam Phillips notes in the Introduction: "[for Lamb] great art was unfinished in the sense that it relied on the imaginative involvement of the audience to complete it. It was not something that by virtue of its perfection diminished its audience. It was not an idol but an invitation." From Lamb's essay on Hogarth: "*imaginary work*, where the spectator must meet the artist in his conceptions half way; and it is peculiar to the confidence of high genius alone to trust so much to spectators or readers." (cf. "reader-response writing.") Lamb's essay "On the Tragedies of Shakespeare" is the first instance of someone suggesting a preference for *reading* Shakespeare over viewing the plays performed. An excellent, intelligently stated argument, with all the panache (& thrice the wit) of Grenier's "I HATE SPEECH." (You'll have to read Lamb's essay to see whether or not you agree--and to what extent--Lamb's & Grenier's concerns are related.) 3. Gertrude Stein. No need to explicate. Richard Bridgman's _Gertrude Stein in Pieces_ includes a (complete?) bibliography, with actual & well-guestimated dates for each work, if you want to read her chronologically. 4. Samuel Beckett, esp. _How It Is_, _Stories and Texts for Nothing_, _Fizzles_, _Ill Seen Ill Said_, _Worstward Ho_, _More Pricks than Kicks_, _Company_ and _Stirring Still_. A big influence on Coolidge, who seems a big influence on lang pos. 5. Jack Spicer, _Language_. (cf. Silliman on this in _New Sentence_.) 6. Clark Coolidge, esp. _Space_, from 1970. The spine of this book claims it was published by "Harper & Row"; I think they did that with mirrors. 7. J.G. Ballard, _The Atrocity Exhibition_. Originally published in 1972 by Panther; reissued (expanded edition?) recently by Re/Search. His notorious "Why I Want to Fuck Ronald Reagan" (there's an Andrews title for you) orig. appeared in 1968 in _Ronald Reagan, The Magazine of Poetry_, edited by John Sladek and Pamela Zoline. (Includes groovy, Brainardesque line-drawings by Zoline.) Andrews is funnier, but Ballard stays with you longer. (Well, okay, "has stayed with *me* longer.") 8. Ad Reinhardt. It's been too long since I've read him to explicate, but I remember, first coming across journals like _Ottotole_ and _Poetics Journal_, that the Ad-man'd covered some of that conceptual ground with respect to the visual arts. His art-world satire collages (including a horse-racing form with the names of various abstract expressionists substituted for horses) are not to be missed. He may or may not prove relevant. 9. The Firesign Theater, _Don't Crush that Dwarf, Hand Me the Pliers_. If anything can be said to've prepared me to read (& appreciate) Bernstein, it was this record. I'm constantly amazed by the lack of (serious) critical attention these guys have received. One of the members, David Ossman, did the interviews of New American Poets published in _The Sullen Art_. (Corinth published that, I think.) There are several e-space "whatchyoucallems" devoted to the F.T. I've discovered using Gopher. Can't remember where they are, how I got there. At least one site includes the F.T. "lexicon," which might be valuable for the un- or recently initiated. 10. Alan Davies, "Peer Pleasure," just published in _Cyanosis_ #2 (e-mail cyanosis@slip.net for info). Any serious study of a movement, group, clique or tendency might include a well-stated, serious critique. "Peer Pleasure" is an example. --Gary Sullivan ------------------------------ From: Hank Lazer Subject: reading now In response to luigi-bob drake's request to mention what we're reading & enjoying now: biography of Coltran by Nisenson; poetry manuscripts by Charles Bernstein and Lisa Samuels; books of poetry by Bei Dao and manuscript materials by an amazing poet (from Suzhou) - Che Qianzi; music by Coltrane & Monk (for classes I'm teaching later in the week); and work by Norman Fischer, Precisely the Point Being Made (a joy of a book) and subsequent manuscripts.... Hank Lazer ------------------------------ From: Tony Green Subject: Re: reading now In response to luigi-bob drake's request to mention what we're reading & enjoying now: Inventories of Cassiano dal Pozzo's collection of pictures; back numbers of Burlington Magazine; Johanna Drucker's Theorizing Modernism; Stephen Davies's ms on Cage's 4'33"; Thierry de Duve's Au Nom de l'art --pour une archeologie de la modernite which includes a thorough search through contemporary methodologies for saying what "art" might be all in vain! and Art as a Proper Noun; T de D's Resonances du Ready-Made; Robert Kelly's The Loom (a bedside book, for re-reading) Lacan The seminar bks I and II; Alan Loney's recent poems (ms) Tony Green, ------------------------------ Rather than just list what I've been reading lately (which consists of relatively little beyond recent books in the mail, such as Spencer Selby's, Snow Crash by Neil Stephanson and Watten's Under Erasure [which I read and reread the way Libyans read Khadafi's Little Green Book], then massive numbers of Information Week, CIO, PC Week, Byte and the like for work), I've been mulling over, rereading a series of "Lost Classics" that I wish were still in print. I've gone so far as to think about trying to package a series for a publisher. By and large, these are longpoems, mostly from the 1960s, that I think everybody should have and read because they're so wonderful: A particular example of this genre would be Robert Kelly's Axon Dendron Tree (which, with Finding the Measure & 20 Songs will always be the key Kelly books for me because they arrived at just the right time to help me with my own development as a poet, so that I have that deep love for them that goes beyond articulation). Another is Ron Johnson's two Norton books, Book of the Green Man and Valley of the Many Colored Grasses. Another is Frank Stanford's battlefield where the moon said i love you (writing from the job, so may have botched that title some). That may still exist, tho would be hard to find, as would be the case I should think with Grenier's Sentences (a "Chinese box" of 500 4x6 cards, the sort of impossible project that extends Jonathon Brannen's insights sort of toward a limit), a collection that I think all 1,000 subscribers to the T-AMLIT list should read. Not to mention everybody here. I think somebody could make the argument that the ideas in my own The Alphabet are a direct (if transformed) descendant of the conception of form implicit in Axon Dendron Tree and it still reads wonderfully today. Anyhow, this after that's what seems powerful & moving and worth mentioning Ron Silliman ------------------------------ From: cris cheek Iain Sinclair - Radon Daughters Roger Griffin - The Nature of Fascism Marjorie Perloff - The Futurist Moment Allen Fisher - Breadboard Tom Leonard - Reports from the Present Kathy Acker - My Mother: demonology, a novel Homi Bhabha - The Location of Culture Bernadette Mayer - Midwinter Day (know it's old but I just got given a copy) Clark Coolidge - Solution Passage William Burroughs - The Letters of 1945 to 1959 Forked Tongues - Comparing 20th Century British and American Literature Alan Bullock - Hitler and Stalin (Parallel Lives) Carla Harryman - Memory Play ------------------------------ From: George Bowering Subject: Re: bedside reading My guess is that responders re the question of bedside reading will cook the books. Not me, though. I'm rteading (it has been on my must-read-immediately shelf for years and years) Burroughs's _The Western Lands_. Verrrry relaxin'. ------------------------------ From: Kit Robinson Subject: Books on My Table Reply to: Books on My Table Here is some of what I have been, am, or will be reading -- lately, currently, presently: Tom Raworth, Frames (Riva San Vitale: Giona Editions, 1994) Chris Tysh, In the Name (Hamtramck: Past Tents Press, 1994) Jessica Grim, Locale (Elmwood: Potes & Poets Press, 1995) Kenneth Rexroth, Bird in the Bush: Obvious Essays (New York: New Directions, 1959) Marguerite Duras, Four Novels (New York: Grove Press, 1965) Helmut Heissenbuttel, Texts, trans. Michael Hamburger (London: Marion Boyers, 1977) Etel Adnan, The Spring Flowers Own & The Manifestations of the Voyage (Sausalito: Post-Apollo Press, 1990) Bruce Andrews, Strictly Confidential (Gran Canaria: Zasterle Press, 1994) Wystan Curnow, Cancer Daybook (Aukland: Van Guard Xpress, 1989) Rodger Kamenetz, The Jew in the Lotus (San Francisco: HarperCollins, 1994) John Yau, Hawaiian Cowboys (Santa Barbara: Black Sparrow, 1994) The Collected Poems of Langston Hughes (New York: Knopf, 1994) Regards, Kit Robinson kit@bando.com ------------------------------ From: Kenneth Goldsmith Books by my bed: 1. Frederic Spotts "Bayreuth: A History of The Wagner Festival" (Yale University Press, 1994). I heard Spotts speak to Stefan Zucker, host of the now sadly defunkt "Opera Fanatic" show on WKCR, 89.9 NYC, for 4 hours giving the real dish on the Nazification of the Festival. This book goes deeper and unlike most books I've read on the Festival, this is juicy stuff. Wonderful read. 2."The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna" by M (Vedanta Press, 1942) M was to Ramakrishna what Boswell was to Johnson. Need I say more? This is a permanent nightstand fixture. Next up: "The Tunnel" by William Gass. Anyone read it? Peace, Kenny G ------------------------------ From: Patrick Phillips Subject: Bedside Books The only book by my bed for the last week and a half has been the new "Collected O'Hara." I've been sleeping very well after my 20-40 minute perusings. ------------------------------ From: Ron Silliman Subject: More Sixties Gold Thinking further of great books from the 1950s and '60s that definitely deserve to be preserved and put forward. When the Sun Tries to Go On by Kenneth Koch. This 113 page poem is one of the founding documents of the New York School. It was published in a little magazine called Hasty Papers and then released as a book by Black Sparrow in 1969 with a cover and 5 collages by Larry Rivers in an edition of 1500. It's never been republished and Koch chose not to excerpt from the poem in his Selected Poems in hopes of eventually having the whole again in print. It's the most spontaneous and surreal work of Koch's. Poem of the Cid, translated by Paul Blackburn. The goofiest publication of a major poem during that entire decade and maybe ever this appeared as a "Study Master Publication" in 1966, a competitor with Cliff Notes. It's an infinitely better poem in English than the Merwin (as anything by Blackburn is, even tho I admit that I admire some of Merwin's work. This was the source for Dorn's Gunslinger epic. 151 pages sans Spanish in the original. Others that come to mind include John Weiners' Hotel Wently Poems (the impact of that book, with the Robert LaVigne illustrations, gets lost in a larger gathering, as does Spicer s Language, for example; my copy of the Weiners originally belonged to Bill Bathurst during his heavy recreational pharmaceuticals period, bleary pen doodles everywhere; Keith Abbott tells me he s cleaned his act up and is now serving as a consultant to one of the post-communist countries in Eastern Europe), Joanne Kyger s The Tapestry and the Web, Phil Whalen's On Bear's Head (Norman Fischer is working on this as we speak), Kathleen Fraser's What I Want, Curtis Faville's Stanzas for an Evening Out, and possibly Tom Clark's Neil Young. There are some critical texts that also would warrant rescuing: David Ossman's The Sullen Art, the original Olson/Creeley Mayan Letters. ------------------------------ From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Bedside Books Books I'm either reading or about to that I forgot because I was scribbling my email at work (avoiding the completion of a white paper on "What is PC Asset Management?"): Culture on the Brink: Ideologies of Technology, edited by Gretchen Bender & Timothy Druckrey (Bay Press' DIA series), with pieces by Stanley Aronowitz, Paula Treichler (Cary Nelson's SO) on AIDS and Identity, Langdon Winner, Laurie Anderson, Avital Ronell, and Andrew Ross. Anderson is the only one I didn't actively solicit for work when I edited Socialist Review. These other folks are all terrific, but I will be very curious to see if they actually understand what they're talking about in this terrain. If I had a dime for every bad piece of writing on technology meets culture, I'd never work again. New Left Review 209 (Jameson on Derrida & Marx, Stuart Hall on Carribean identity, Geras on Rorty, some other excellent looking pieces [meaning I haven't read them yet]). Looks like the best issue of NLR in about 5 years. Made to Seem, Rae Armantrout's new book from Sun & Moon. This is rereading really, since I see most of these poems in manuscript first (often in ten or twelve different versions with just one word or a line break altered). Seeing them in a book is always a curious experience for me since it means that they have now been "pinned down" in a way they seldom seem to be "in life." Here's my favorite this week: MY PROBLEM It is my responsibility to squeeze the present from the past by demanding particulars. When the dog is used to represent the inner man, I need to ask, "What kind of dog is it?" If a parasitic metaphor grows all throughout--good! Why stop with a barnacle? A honeysuckle, thrown like an arm, around a chain-link fence, would be far more articulated, more precisely repetitive, giving me the feeling that I can go on like this while the woman at the next table says, "You smell pretty," and sends her small daughter's laugh, a sputtery orgasm, into my ear-- though this may not have been what you intended. It may not be a problem when I notice the way the person shifts. Rae's poems often have the hallucinated clarity of a dream state (maybe in this case, with the decidedly incestuous undertone of the mother initiating the daughter's "orgasm," one of the dwarf dreams out of Twin Peaks). Behind that lucidity the "narrative frame" is often either unclear or unimportant compared with the rhetoric or structure of the argument at the surface (a particularly Lacanian view of content I suppose). I can't tell if the Bromige allusion in the title is intended or not. There's also a lengthy piece on Armantrout (the first that I'm aware of) by Jeffrey Peterson in the new Sagetrieb. I continue to be amazed that Rae hasn't been the "crossover" success of LangPo & G1 generally, but where some fall back on beauty, humor, or anger posed as satire, Rae never pulls punches in her work. The largest book to date is a selected published in France in French. Amazing! Ron Silliman rsillima@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ From: Mn Center For Book Arts As to reading, beside my bed are John Cage: Composed in America, ed. M. Perloff & C. Junkerman (Univ. of Chicago Press, 1994), Robin Blaser's The Holy Forest (Coach House, 1993), How to Make an Antique (artist's book by Karen Wirth & Robt. Lawrence (pub. by the artists, 1989), Kevin Magee's Tedium Drum (lyric &, 1994). I'm carrying around with me Kit Robinson's Balance Sheet (Roof, 1994) and various books of poems by Emily Dickinson (I seem to do that periodically). I'm looking at Keith Smith's Non-Adhesive Binding, which gives fantastic ideas & instruction for real & possible book structures. And I'm reading Tom Peters's The Pursuit of Wow, which is very silly, but refreshes me on the need to be creative in managing & directing an organization and the people who work with me there. I'm also reading manuscripts by Anne Tardos and typesetting/designing manuscripts/books by Mary Margaret Sloan and Myung Mi Kim. A manuscript of sonnets by Tom Mandel is never far away, trying to figure its best way to become the astonishing book it needs to be. all best, charles alexander ------------------------------ From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: bedside manners Currently I am re-reading/re-viewing the bp Nichol collection "An H in the Heart". Taken before beddy-byes, this book will allow you to have two to three dreams at once. Or so it seems. ------------------------------ From: George Bowering Subject: Re: More Sixties Gold Silliman had some beauties on his list. Is Michael Rumaker's _The Butterfly_ out of print again? My, that was a nice piece of prose at the time. It was so much UNlike what you were reading in your U.S. Lit course. ------------------------------ From: Carl Lynden Peters Subject: bed riddence i read, and have been reading for the past long while, Leonard Cohen's BOOK OF MERCY before going to sleep at night, because, you see, i never know if i'm going to wake up on th' other side. wtch is interesting. i dont really like Leonard Cohen Carl ------------------------------ From: maria damon Subject: what i'm reading i like to know what people are reading; it's entertaining and instructive. i'm reading or have recently read cb's a poetics; louis, a book abt. louis armstrong; a ms by lew ellingham about jack spicer's life and circle; ammiel alcalay's after jews and arabs; marilyn halter's between race and ethnicity (a book about cape verdean immigrants to southeastern new england) in connection w/ research on steven jonas; pat shipman's the evolution of racism, a popular-ish history-of-science account of the relationship between darwinism/physical anthropology and ideologies of race and racism (not especially recommended) in connection w/ a project on jewish social scientists, esp. anthropologists. charmed by the discussion of malleable cast so might add that to my list. have ordered some of hannah wiener.--maria damon ------------------------------ From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Groovy Books An extension of the "Sixties Gold/Classic O.P." discussion: TEN GROOVY BOOKS KEY: Groove Factor 1-3 = "Groovy" Groove Factor 4-6 = "Very Groovy" Groove Factor 7-9 = "Totally Groovy" Groove Factor 10 = "Oh My Fucking God That Is Like Totally *Beyond* Groovy" Call me a fetishist, but what *I* like are "groovy" books. "What the hell does that mean?" "By what measure--'grooviness'?" "Does the work *in* the book have to be 'good' for a book to be considered groovy?" "Can a 'fine print' edition of something be 'groovy'?" Hey, thanks for asking. Well, first of all, *obviously* everyone's going to have different ideas as to what's "groovy." For me, "groovy's measure" is something I feel first in my gut then, later, spend hours on the phone with friends, "verifying." I'll describe the book, after which point I'll ask, "So, is this groovy, or what?" A "yes" answer from more than 1/2 of all queried friends "verifies" grooviness. Level of queried-friend enthusiasm determines Groove Factor. A "no" answer from more than 1/2 can either (a) lower Groove Factor, or (b) annul said book's "groovy" status. (Book becomes "just-a-book.") No, the work doesn't *necessarily* have to be any good. But, it helps. Lastly, "groovy," like "campy," is a value attributed more by audience member, than maker. Most "fine print" editions--lovely though they might be--are not "groovy." (It's a distinction that admittedly still needs work.) (Chris Stroffolino, as someone in academia who's also interested in contemporary rock music, you might be the perfect person to--perhaps as a thesis?--hammer out the above admittedly "foggy notion"s of "grooviness" into a "sharp" essay.) So, in no particular order, here are 10 randomly chosen "groovy" books ... Alfred Tennyson, _Lover's Tale_, Walton Press, no copyright date. This hardcover (library binding?) of Tennyson's poem includes three "found" photos by Bern Porter. I gave this book 1 Groove Unit for each photo. Three photos x 1 Groove Unit ea. = GROOVE FACTOR 3. Chris Mason, _Click Poems_, Shabby Editions, 1982. "The Click Poems were inspired by and are dedicated to the click language of the Bushmen in South Africa, and the Ameslan sign language of the deaf community of the United States." A beautiful mini-chap w/extraordinary work (can't reproduce here; poems use "fermatas", illustrations of lips &etc., scribbled out text) found used in MPLS. GROOVE FACTOR: 5. Hey, wait! The address says "c/o Cris Cheek"! And Cris is on this list! I've "talked to" Cris! GROOVE FACTOR: 7. Jack Spicer, _After Lorca_, (picture of cone = press name?), 1974. A reprint (pirated?). Blue ink. The verso of the title page says: "This book has been typed on an IBM Selectric blah, blah, blah, by Robin Cones and printed by Marco Polio for the Government, with a cover from a photo by blah, blah, blah, in March, 1974." Anyone know who made this book? Delicious! GROOVE FACTOR: 10. Patti Smith, _Seventh Heaven_, Telegraph Books, 1972. Patti's first book, I think. GREAT cover photo: looks like Patti hasn't bathed since 1966, struggling to keep eyes open. Dedication: "this book is dedicated to/ Mickey Spillane/ and/ Anita Pallenberg." How groovy? GROOVE FACTOR 8. James Sherry, _In Case_, Sun & Moon Press, 1981. Great lurid pulp cover, text pages printed on *pulp stock paper*. Jonathan Brannen (a frequent Groove Consultant) mentioned that he'd seen a review of this book that actually *criticized* the book for having been printed on such "cheap" paper. (Critic obviously didn't "get" it.) GROOVE FACTOR (including Brannen's anecdote): 6. Maxine Chernoff, _A Vegetable Emergency_, Beyond Baroque Foundation, 1977. This 8-1/2" x 11" printed on cheap stock was published in an edition of EIGHT THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED copies. *Tell* me that's not groovy. Bonus Groove Unit as I got it signed by Chernoff in '93, who explained the high press run: "Yeah, they, um, they printed an awful lot of these." GROOVE FACTOR: 6. James Haining (editor), _Salt Lick_ Vol. 2, Nos. 1-2, 1972. Every issue of _Salt Lick_ is groovy, but this one particularly so. Includes Gerald Burns' _Boccherini's Minuet_ as a make-it- yourself chapbook insert (!); also includes poems by Robert Slater, Robert Trammell's "George Washington Trammell," poems by Ann Darr, Stephen Leggett, Bruce Andrews' "Getting Ready To Be Frightened" ("go Gandhi go"), poems by James Haining, drawings by Wilton David, and essays & reviews by Burns, Michael Lally, Al Drake, Andrews, Victor Contoski, Darr, Ron Silliman, Daniel Castelaz, and Haining. Reading this, you get the sense that, in 1972, anything might've happened. Incredible list of Books & Mags received. GROOVE FACTOR: 10. J H Prynne, _Kitchen Poems_, Grossman/Cape Goliard, 1968. Top o' the line poetry, *beautiful* edition (great two-page "trig" drawing in red on title & facing pages). GROOVE FACTOR 9. (Docked one point from perfect score only because I found two copies in the same used bookstore.) (Groove "aura" loss.) Robert Gluck, _Marsha Poems_, Hoddypoll Press, 1973. Instead of stapling this 8-1/2" x 11", the publisher bound it with red string. Also, "Marsha"--the cartoon woman on the cover--has red flowers felt-tip penned onto her dress. GROOVE FACTOR: 5. Tom Weatherly, _Maumau American Cantos_, Corinth Books, 1970. The title? *Way* "seventies." Includes subtitles like: "roi rogers and the warlocks of space." You know what I'm thinkin'? I'm thinkin': GROOVE FACTOR 8. That's ten. Groovy. Yours, Gary ------------------------------ From: Rae Armantrout Subject: Re: Groovy Books I think someone should say that Carla Harryman's Memory Play (O Books) is amazing. I guess it will have to be me. Rae Armantrout ------------------------------ From: cris cheek Subject: bedside reading A slightly more English list of what's balanced (sometimes toppling) from an upturned and suprisingly robust cardboard box by the bed. I sometimes go to bed in the afternoon so this isn't always night-time reading or pre-sleep induction. Also just becasue they're there doesn't mean they'll all get read soon. Some are started, some up for occasional visits and some hot. The piles change over about a six weekly cycle. Iain Sinclair - Radon Daughters Roger Griffin - The Nature of Fascism Kathy Acker - My Mother: demonology, a novel Jon Rose - Violin Music in the age of SHOPPING Eric Mottram - Double Your Stake Tom Leonard - Reports from the Present Homi Bhabha - The Location of Culture William Burroughs - The Letters of 1945 to 1959 Bernadette Mayer - Midwinter Day Allen Fisher - Breadboard Alan Bullock - Hitler and Stalin, parallel lives Art & Design Magazine - 'Performance Art Into the 90s' Macintosh Hypercard User's Guide ------------------------------ From: Jim Pangborn An adage from the sixties: the only way out is through. Let me suggest some texts that might be useful as ways to fight back--to critique the academic folkways that oppress us: Charles Bernstein, "What's Art Got to Do With It . . ." , etc. John Dewey, _Art as Experience_ Larry Hickman, _John Dewey's Pragmatic Technology_ Ronald deSouza, _The Rationality of Emotion_ Mark Johnson, _The Body in the Mind_ (for the basic idea, not the interminable Kant-quibbling) Peter Sloterdijk, _Critique of Cynical Reason_ Bruno Latour, _We Have Never Been Modern_ Jacques Derrida, _Specters of Marx_ . . . many of whom, of copurse, contradict one another completerly . . . (Sorry these are all boys. I wish I had a good explanation for that. I'd add Donna Haraway to this list except I have some fundamental objections I'm still trying to work through. I doubt it's accidental that my favorite women writers are all poets!) --Jim the Scrivener ------------------------------ From: Charles Bernstein Alan Loney has been a subscriber to the Poetics List, but has recently signed off. He is the author of two recommended books: Missing Parts: Poems 1977-1990 (Christchurch, NZ: Hazard Press, 1992) and The Erasure Tapes (Auckland University Press, 1994), which Loney describes in the Preface as "an autobiography in which I refuse to tell the story of my life." ------------------------------ From: Tom Mandel Subject: bedside books I'm in the middle of _Intimate Letters_, Janacek's correspondence with Kamila Stosslova. Also reading _Penser, Classer_ by Georges Perec. This is a collection of short and occasional essays and is wonderful (but untranslated -- don't miss _Avoid_ however the translation of La Disparution, GP's novel without e's: it shd be out just abt now). Adin Steinsaltz's _The Long Shorter Way_ Laura (Riding) Jackson's _Lives of Wives_ Ron Silliman's N/O Harry Mathews' _The Journalist_ are stacked up, and I'm waiting for the new books by Rae Armentrout and Carla Harryman (mentioned here w/in the last week; but I'm not near my booklist and alas can't remember the names) as well as Jessica Grim's Locale. Also eagerly awaiting the new (18th) volume in Patrick O'Brian's ongoing series of novels about his twin characters Aubrey/Maturin and their lives and adventures in the British navy during the Napoleonic wars. Again, I ccan't recall the name of this not-yet-here volume. Tom Mandel ------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 21:38:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Blair Seagram Subject: Re: Back to poetry In-Reply-To: <199503300842.DAA03878@panix3.panix.com> Dear Lindz: Sorry about that message earlier today, I spelt your name wrong. I guess I was rushing off and so went the message. I am trying to remember what I said to you and I have a feeling my last comment may have been beside the point. I think there was *one* point I wanted to make! Of course words are words and by the way they don't have to be poetry to have meaning. And yes of course we are all tied to the time in which we live. And it is true that Western art is not universal, although we have made a pretty good stab at making American culture universal. One could make a similar case for the English language but I won't because I know what you mean. And yes, it would seem that art is not eternal. That was a bad choice of words. In a world where the transcendental has almost been abandoned, art might be, for some people, a route of return. It sounds corny I guess, but sometimes when I see primitive art like those wonderful totem poles in BC or art by the Shakers, it makes me realize that people made these things with a belief system in tact. These were not objects as much as they were a physical manifestation of a belief. Now I am perfectly aware that there is a strong current out there that says this type of thinking is impossible today. That if anything, art has been reduced to the fringes of society, artists are marginalized (so what else is new) and the best one can do is parody and more specifically parody the media. Nietzsche said as much one hundred years ago or thereabouts and it looks like his prophecy holds water. So where does that leave me in terms of a response to you. Only that I am very much in favour of reality and getting a grip on it. And whether I like it or not I was born in the twentieth century and am a product of it. I try to work with what I've got. I try to speak to my time, otherwise I have nothing to say. When I think of Lincoln's speech at Gettysburg I think of poetry. It is extremely powerful today. In the hands of a lesser person the speech would not have been remembered, as indeed Lincoln believed it would not. Yes I guess we do remember the men that died on that battlefield and yes we would know of this battle even if there had been no Gettysburg Address, but America would be a far poorer nation without those words, than it is with them. And I would venture to say that for me, not being an American, the history of the civil war may only be interesting because of the Gettysburg Address.(And books like Gone With The Wind!) Best to you. blair ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 21:43:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Blair Seagram Subject: Re: Signs In-Reply-To: <199503310943.EAA08651@panix4.panix.com> Thank you Steven Shoemaker for the best laugh of the day. bs ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 23:01:44 -0600 Reply-To: Mn Center For Book Arts Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mn Center For Book Arts Subject: Re: Back to poetry In-Reply-To: <2f7e0e445137002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Blair Seagram, in talking about the possibility or impossibility of art as a return, perhaps to the transcendental, you referred to a belief many people hold -- "Now I am perfectly aware that there is a strong current out there that says this type of thinking is impossible today. That if anything, art has been reduced to the fringes of society, artists are marginalized (so what else is new) and the best one can do is parody and more specifically parody the media. Nietzsche said as much one hundred years ago or thereabouts and it looks like his prophecy holds water." While I sometimes find myself working within the trappings of this sort of thinking, I also wonder what such thoughts have to do with artists working from and sometimes within such cultures as the Hopi and Zuni, or hundreds of cultures throughout the world (and by no means are all the practices of such artists "traditional" in senses understood by their culture or this generalized Western one) whose practices deserve to be considered as legitimate or central as any other, including the one in which we hold ourselves up to Nietzschean prophecies. I know that nothing you say argues against my thinking on this, but I just wanted to respond with something of what our cultural limitations provoke in my own thinking. charles alexander ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 23:07:08 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mn Center For Book Arts Subject: Desire In-Reply-To: <2f7de7ff0855002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Dodie Bellamy said, in response to Rapunzelian invitations to "come up," "I was surprised to find such a sexy message on the poetics listserve." Surprise, no no we are such creatures of electronic longing charles alexander ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 22:20:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: Back to poetry In-Reply-To: <199504020239.SAA15020@whistler.sfu.ca> from "Blair Seagram" at Apr 1, 95 09:38:15 pm Blair, I was following your discussion with Lindz and was intrigued by your comments on Lincoln. Given what you said about the necessity of his "words", would you go so far as to say that poetry (words) makes things happen? This has been on my tongue lately. Because if poetry does make things happen, what happens when you write against poetry, try to resist language? I also agree with your comments that this is an age abandoning the transcendental. But if you write in resistance to language, widening its holes, flirting with contradictions or the its take upon "reality", is this not a transcendental pursuit? Perhaps it's just mask in place stuff. (looking forward to your reading next Wedn. Lindz) Ryan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Apr 1995 00:50:30 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: UNBRIDLED (for Cris) UNBRIDLED (for Cris) being, 35 LINES FROM APOLLINAIRE'S ALCOOLS My boat leaves for America tomorrow I thrust my tongue out at the waves From lips stirring the silent water Of my mouth. Great ships drag love- Less shadows across the earthly tug Of you my love, my earth. I'm lost: My heart, mirror of earth, is brok- En. I no longer know anything, only Love; condemn me to die, for I love No one. This day the sun sprawls a- Cross the sky, & the streets are a- Wash with fresh rain. Slowly I make My way, brow clouded with fire, sad Since everything is ours loved mad- Ly away. & now, my boat floats pale In solid space. It passes you by as You pass by, displaying at once the Effort & effect. The drowned follow In my wake to their own pale lovers Crouched under waves of the burning Sun. Nothing's dead but what hasn't Yet existed. Bells and shrill music Will announce my arrival in America To know & at last be devoured there Where I'll live on beneath Hawthorn Flowers, lakes & light. Never shall I return, but in new clothes wander Hat in hand and striding right foot First in all directions drag myself Beneath the streets beneath earth I Once loved. My boat trembles on the Horizon, all black, & vanquished by The clatter of brick waves, blacker Than these hands folded together, O Our clustered senses woven in light Yours, Gary ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Apr 1995 02:46:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Back to poetry It's great to see the word transcendental pop up again...this time it seems people are giving it a little more breathing room...there are these half-hearted admissions of eating it on the sly as if it were junk food, or worse, health food which is politically irresponsible these days... But seriously--I guess I'm thinking about "if we make a revolution make it for fun" from D.H.L. and wondering if the infantilization of the tran- scendental Derrida flaunted, and the politicization of it Perelman wavers "makes new advances" on the transcendental which is probably a style before it's anything else...and what of the idea that the transcendental is an feeling of scope that includes, potential, all others--that allows access to what could defeat it if you couldn't keep up the illusion of returning to it, which may be an illusion because of course silly you're really there all the time--- etc......... chris s. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Apr 1995 00:30:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: Desire >Dodie Bellamy said, in response to Rapunzelian invitations to "come up," >"I was surprised to find such a sexy message on the poetics listserve." > >Surprise, > no no > >we are such creatures of electronic longing > > charles alexander Charles, Of course your point is right on the mark. But, I wasn't talking of the individuals--just the discourse. Nice chatting with you at Margy's party all those months ago. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Apr 1995 13:21:58 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: UNBRIDLED (for Cris) X-To: Gary Sullivan Hi Gary, feeling ravished by your response. Bright sunshine here, buds opening, a snow-gum eucalyptus swaying in the garden. Fascinating the gradual process by which the whip of the sapling begins to take the more solid core forms of the 'mature' tree. I wish I could write that simply and develop forms that cleanly. Takes my breath away. When I try that it quickly gets messy. Maybe it's the difference between the grid development of the U.S. city as opposed to the organic internal logic of the sprawl that is London. The weighted influences of the horizontal and the vertical. It prompts a discussion about look (poem shape - focus) and control, roughness and smoothness of tone and texture. Out of a brief exchange I was having with Chris Stoffolino re 'philosophical irony'. I multiple mailed it by mistake. But now I'm glad I did. Thanks, cris ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Apr 1995 13:22:05 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Cassette Recorders / Ginsberg X-To: Tony Green Hi Tony, curious to hear of your driving / improvising / recording around Auckland. I've been using a dictaphone extensively for about 4 years. Take it almost everywhere and continually engage with recording language materials, notes, phrases, snippets of conversation (usually not overheard). Both 'outdoors and indoors' the whispering cusps between 'public and private'. Sounds kind of creepy (and can attract funny looks) but I take care not to be intrusive and sometimes repress the impulse altogether. It's intriguing how 'place', particularly ambience, effects the committing of the work. I asked Ginsberg specifically to talk about the compositional process of 'Wichita Vortex Sutra' and although I've never actually transcribed what was a lengthy interview the gist of his reply was to do with his process of transcription (the laborious bit) and his use of blue pencil to more shape the poem. I submit my transcriptions to several other stages of process. But I can recommend the dictaphone if you're into a rough edged collocation of time and space. I record in very short phrases (mostly) and run on day after day into night. Worked on and off with a cumbersome tape machine both in the car and sat out on the street before that. But I find the dictaphone terrific. The tapes last for ages (you begin to enjoy accidental windows from one take into another as practiced more assiduously through cut-up by Burroughs). Not everything I write is involved with this process by any means but it's currently a persistent interest. regards cris ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Apr 1995 14:33:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Re: POETICS READING LIST MARCH 1995 (long) In-Reply-To: <199504020044.TAA17637@mailhub.acsu.buffalo.edu> from "Kenneth Goldsmith" at Apr 1, 95 07:42:02 pm I just want to say that I think it's terrific that Kenneth has compiled this list of readings. It's extremely useful to be able to browse these suggestions! Especially since the NY Times Book Review, etc., doesn't seem to exactly cover our areas of interest... Bravo Kenneth! PS. I'll be posting this on the EPC. It might also be useful for classes, etc., suggested readings, or just as a way to see what's being passed around... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 08:35:49 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Responsibility Chris: O Rapunzel, I never knew it was a wig. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 10:29:37 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: poetry v history Dear George, Thanks for post. Protocols in history,philosophy etc are interestingly controlled. There is abook somewhere 1980's called The Poetics of Philosophy. Paul Barolsky used the phrase the peotics of art history in the early 90's and I am aiming at something along those lines -- have been talking abt a poetics of art history for quite a while. Substitute for poetics: "erotics" and you'd have the philosophers and others really worried. My feeling is that it might be easier to work thru anything but professional history mags and go for poetical marginal ones. Message is flashing that the computer to which I'm linked has got a full disc. The e facility has been going for a short while only and has proliferated here to the extent that it's like a jameed telephone swithcboard. Maybe this will get thru..... Best wishes Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 00:29:17 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: responsibility X-To: Tony Green Hi Tony, I feel like I've been fed a line - * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * MIRACLE * * Cure for Baldness * * * * * * * * * * * * JESUS SHAVES! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * yours insincerity, Slithery Plait ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Apr 1995 19:17:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Brannen Subject: Hallmark verse Call me elitist but to paraphrase those most astute cultural critics Beavis and Butthead, greeting card verse sucks! Have a smiley face day and say hi! to Barney for me, Jonathan Brannen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 15:04:24 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Hallmark [GREETINGS TO FRIENDS & RELATIONS IN KANSAS] Thy sins are forgiven, Wichita! Thy lonesomeness annulled, O Kansas dear! as the western Twang prophesied thru banjo, when lone cowboy walked the railroad track past and empty station towards the sun sinking giant-bulbed orange down the box canyon -- Music strung over his back and empty-handed singing on this planet earth I'm a lonely Dog, O Mother! quoted without permission and slightly mislineated [CONDOLENCE] A FRIGHTFUL RELEASE A bag which was left and not only taken but turned away was not found. The place was shown to be very like the last time. A piece was not exchanged, not a bit of it, a piece was left over. The rest was mismanaged. quoted without permission Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Apr 1995 23:16:04 -0500 Reply-To: Mn Center For Book Arts Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mn Center For Book Arts Subject: Re: Hallmark verse In-Reply-To: <2f7f3ee53183002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Jonathan's distaste for Hallmark verse is something I'm afraid I share, although I've learned a bit from its contextual and social discussion here. But for another take on pop culture, albeit a ways from Hallmark, I've just finished reading REVOLUTION IN THE HEAD: THE BEATLES' RECORDS AND THE SIXTIES, by Ian MacDonald, pub. Henry Holt & Co, 1994, which I'd recommend. It's contentious & sometimes misguided & extremely critical of aleatoric methods of making art, but it's provoking in its attempt to see that body of music, recording by recording, as linked to, embedded within, and in some cases, leading, the events of its times. And somehow reading a book which is composed of the brief bursts, going single song by song, is, in its dispersal of energy (although definitely not in its sense of language possibilities or accomplishment), is something like reading a collection of poems. charles alexander ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 07:22:59 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom White Subject: Recent & Forthcoming books from O Books and Kelsey St. Press The forthcoming O Books (5729 Clover Drive, Oakland, CA 94618 - FAX 510.601.9588; and Small Press Distribution, 1814 San Pablo Ave. Berkeley, CA 94702): P. Inman's VEL($8.00); Alice Notley's CLOSE TO ME AND CLOSER ... (THE LANGUAGE OF HEAVEN) and DESAMERE, TWO BOOKS ($10.50); John Crouse's LAPSES ($8.00) - are available in June 1995. Another recent O Book: Camille Roy's COLD HEAVEN is two plays which are poems - Eileen Myles describes: "Not a play, but an exploding poem for two bodies." Carla Harryman says: "Roy's second play is a fascinating read into an imaginary realm that thrives on a distorted association between life and death." Camille Roy has another book now out from Kelsey St. Press. Here are some Kelsey St. books (2718 Ninth St., Berkeley, CA 94710 - FAX: 510.548.9185; also distributed by Small Press Distribution): THE ROSY MEDALLIONS, SELECTED WORK, Camille Roy (72 pp, $10, ISBN 0-932716-35-0): the second collection of writing by lesbian author and performance artist Camille Roy. These startling witty pieces combine a playwright's keen ear for vernacular speech with a poet's compression. Every line has its physical punch. "Camille Roy's skittish, predatory language stalks inexplicable, then pounces. Her nasty luscious stories and poems make up a dyke coming-of-age novel; set not in the American family, but in our traveling explosion of body-race-class-gender ...(Robert Gluck) "Camille Roy's a pioneer in the new literature which used to be called autobiography, poetry, theater, prose or even the essay." Eileen Myles) DISTANCE WITHOUT DISTANCE, Barbara Einzig (Kelsey St. Press 136 pp, $10, ISBN 0-32716-34-2): Einzig's collection of short fictions continues the author's project of fiction as poem, her unique way of investigating the life of the hero as a creature of habit. The subject of her stories is an axis running through sensual perception, language and landscape. "How to let things simply happen, wander onto the page and find their true place ... How to integrate the miracle of wing and tense, the color of secrets and the market at Cumana and all the contents of consciousness, seems to me the impressive and ambitious undertaking in Barbara Einzig's DISTANCE WITHOUT DISTANCE..." (Carole Maso) SPHERICITY, Mei-mei Berssenbrugge, poems; Richard Tuttle, drawings (Kelsey St. Press, 48 pp. 7 drawings, $14, ISBN 0-932716-30-X): SPHERICITY is the first collection of poems by Mei-mei Berssenbrugge in several years. In this new edition light continues as the medium of small shocks of perception and revelation which boundaries only partly contain. "In SPHERICITY, when a point is silent, it's not a vantage point. Really there's no vantage point, and the instant of apprehension is solely. The event horizon is so loaded, the horizon's everywhere: 'the seam, my experience of your experience, a horizon at dawn, is the instant of apprehension.' ... Berssenbrugge subjects 'seeing' an event to language. Comparison itself (of Tuttle's vision and Berssenbrugge's writing) is Berssenbrugge's long line of the poems which as a measure/shape that extends throughout the text, is as if there were one infinite line of 'relation' that constitutes the 'event horizon' of SPHERICITY." OTHER BOOKS. From Roof Books (Segue Foundation, 303 East 8th St., N.Y. N.Y. 10009; also distributed by Small Press Distribution): OBJECTS IN THE TERRIFYING TENSE / LONGING FROM TAKING PLACE, Leslie Scalapino, $9.95, ISBN 0-937804-54-1. Has essays on Mei-mei Berssenbrugge, Carla Harryman, Lyn Hejinian, Robert Creeley, and others. Joan Retallack writes about OBJECTS: "We value Scalapino's act of writing for taking us to the rim of a textual eros full of mystery and lucidity at one but not the same time. These essays evoke multiple senses of time - a long history of con/texts, a recent past full of local excess and global abuse, and a present surface tension brimming with developing meaning. Here is ... a writer who acts on her knowledge that 'we don't have words at all;' but also that 'the text is erotic not simply by withholding,' but in so far as it touches 'the rim of occurring....'" Tom White Phone: (510) 814-2837 Fax: (510) 522-1966 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 12:02:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Responsibility sorry, chris, short hair. best wishes, rapunzel ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 12:10:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Responsibility me, too, dodie, but grateful. wish there were more. am BORED with all the abstract theory. what's that got to do with poetry? IT'S BORING, BORING, BORING, BORING, BORRRRRIIINNNGGG!!!!! -- thank you, cris! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 17:24:43 WET Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "I.LIGHTMAN" Subject: Re: Desire I was really interested to see Dodie Bellamy's two succinct messages about being "surprised to find such a sexy message on the poetics listserve" (& also to note, Dodie, your subtle qualification "I wasn't talking of the individuals--just the discourse"). Dodie's remarks were touchstones for my own reservations about the Poetics list and recent discussions. I absolutely do not want to offer the following remarks as an *interpretation* of Dodie's remarks, but it's interesting that I can better explain myself by citing Mirage Periodical, which Dodie edits with Kevin Killian. "Sexy" is a very interesting word. There hasn't been on the list much examination/deconstruction of any specifics of sex, and yet there are many references related to sex, that make sense by drawing on experiences other list-members have had or know about; sometimes to me, as a near macrobiotic (a la John Cage) non-druggy person, these discussions of sex feel as excluding as discussions about good grades of drug between users. I'm sure, I know, that sex can be (spoken about as, anyway) refined (as in white sugar and bread) into a blissful high, and dispensed, dealt, consumed; but it isn't like that for me. Nor is it the shared riff of coupledom, like the hits you play night after night on tour to a fanbase that is two people - not even the couple themselves, but the two personae they are bringing out of each other. For me sex is part of a life I'm leading of *connection* with people; it is one of the *many* equally intense collaborations I can have with people, not just collaborations, sometimes a finding of a higher joint being one has to surrender oneself to that week. How could I explain to a monogamous sexual partner the level of incomparable closeness between myself and my fellow songwriter, that no sexual partner and I could ever reach? I don't write songs with my songwriter all the time; I could imagine making love with someone similarly not all the time, cohabiting with a friend who is not a sexual partner, fostering and adopting a child. If anyone thinks I am espousing hippydom/free love, let me point out the usually feminist historical studies of whose freedom there was in free love; it seems little wonder that people like me would have been reluctant to stand up for the principles when the right attacked the practioners, when many practioners don't stand up for the real principle of either freedom or love. I hate Ginsberg, I hate the prominence of a certain kind of sexy, an unthinking automatism-sexy, like Grenier hated speech. Hitting on young men? Yes, AG hits on some other things that need hitting on, but he also hits on the young, and that isn't an easily laughed off flaw; it isn't like the flaws I have, and it isn't like the flaws that others would have who would be as capable as Ginsberg of hitting on the other things that need hitting on. Alright, he's an old man, now, and the young are warned; but let's call an end to the continuance of this kind of practice, let's not excuse it. It is not just the "sexiness" of fame that goes on when Ginsberg hits on the young; it may be, and more commonly is in my experience, the desire by a young poet (like all young poets estranged) seeking company and encouragement; the exploitation of that, the weedling out of sex in return for attention, is despicable; I can think of one soi-disant language poet who does this all the time to young female undergraduates, on his worldwide itinerary of writer-in-residency, and it is just as bad. Just because the young male has rewards/is accepted for becoming a loveless-sex junkie, and so seems to have less "innocence" to lose, it is just as cruel a loss of a potential fine poet to have them made cynical in this way. For all of the above reasons, it doesn't surprise me that a sex-stupid dominant culture sees Ginsberg as an icon; it just isn't avant-garde to be a sex junkie like that. That's them, all of them, this is me, Ira ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 12:26:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Back to poetry re: "transcendental," note l. schwartz's "transcendental lyric." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 13:24:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: ian macdonald Dear charles alexander--Who is this ian Macdonald--there were several rock no rollers named that and maybe one of them has now tried to cash in on it in a book...there was the guy in Fairport Convention who later became Ian Matthews of matthews southern comfort and then there was the original leader of King Crimson who later became a member of, YEEGAHDS, Foreigner...Anyway, maybe it's neither--Does Anybody know where i can find a poem called to "The ROck n ROll industry in time of crisis" written I think by--I blank on the name....Chris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 13:50:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Back to poetry By Schwartz does Foster mean "leonard" or "delmore"--by trnascendental does he mean "boring borring BORRRINNG" or "sexy" and what (or hwat, as some people say) poem begins with the line "Quips and players?" and why not? cs. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 13:17:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Back to poetry (_Talisman_) Ed Foster writes: >re: "transcendental," note l. schwartz's "transcendental lyric." ...which appeared in _Talisman_ #9, "A Flicker at the Edge of Things: Some Thoughts on Lyric Poetry." Followed up in _Talisman_ #10 with Stephen-Paul Martin's response "Immanence/Transcendence," Richard Blevins' response "Responding by Anticipating: Reading the Poetry behind Leonard Schwartz's 'A Flicker at the Edge of Things," and Schwartz's response-response, titled, simply, "A Response." Great reading! And, speaking of _Talisman_...the new issue (#13) is out *now*. (I'm borrowing a friend's copy--couldn't wait!) More than THREE HUNDRED PAGES! Yet another groovy font! (What is the new typeface, Ed?) An AMAZING (as always) issue, featuring an interview w/ and essays/poetry (by W.C. Bamberger, who I think does Bamberger Books in Michigan?; Lee Ann Brown; Chris Funkhouser; Bernadette Mayer; Douglas Oliver; Kristin Prevallet; Andrew Schelling; Katie Yates) about/for Anne Waldman. Also, a selection of Mary Fabilli's work, edited by Drew Gardner; Robert Duncan on H.D.; Merle Bachman on Mei-mei Berssenbrugge; essays by Charles Cantalupo; Kathleen Fraser; Andrew Joron (my sci-fi hero!); Vyacheslav Kuritsyn; Mark Lipovetskii; Susan M. Schultz; and Zhang Ziqing. Great new poem ("Inside Language") by Charles Borkuis (see his new SINK Press book, _Proximity (Stolen Arrows)_). Other highlights (for me) include "Meditations" by Jerome Sala ("Meditation 3" on Bryan Ferry); an excerpt from Daniel Davidson's "Desire"; Bob Holman's "Let's Get Butt Naked and Write Poetry" (indeed!); "On L," by thrilling 20-something Bostonite, Ange Mlinko; e-pal Mark Wallace's "The Displaced Blizzard"; Anthony Schlagel--Minneapolis' best-kept secret--'s "The Secret Music"; Stephen Paul Miller--not to be confused with Stephen-Paul Martin--'s "Squash Omlette" ... *Lots* more!--including a TWELVE-PAGE LIST of "Books Received." (Invaluable!) (I'm hyperventillating just *looking* at it!) My question to you, Ed: DON'T YOU EVER SLEEP? This issue (a mere $6.00 + $2.00/postage & handling--go figure!) is available from TALISMAN, P.O. Box 1117, Hoboken, NJ 07030. I'm off to read the rest of it ... Yours, Gary ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 11:46:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: The return of transcendentalism In-Reply-To: <9504030422.AA08973@isc.sjsu.edu> I'd thought we'd gotten beyond all that! Seriously, though; I'm no longer sure I recognize the transcendent being discussed here (but never having seen it, how should I describe that bear I would have seen). Jews, Christians, Moslems and my mother all believe not only that there is a transcendent realm of apriori truth, but that the transcendent has manifested itself within human writing (bible, koran, etc.) The problem with this is, of course, that the non-believer has only their word for it. If we could step "outside" together, we might be able to settle this problem, but we can, which is why these are called transcendent arguments ("I have before me phenomenon X, which leadse me to believe that it _must_ have been preceded by phenomenon V). I've been down that path before. \ Much mischief has been done by that mistranslation of Derrida (see Berube's _Public Access_ on this) -- My own account of that notorious quip is that Derrida was answering the question, "Where is nothing?" answer -- "Outside the text." I am I because my audience knows me. I have a friend who thinks he's a hypochonriac, but he isn't really. I tired to get a Hallmark card of the get well/get over it variety, but that had nothing that suited, so I gave him Thoreau's _Cape Cod_ as an antidote. An uncorrectlable line above should read "But we can't." Next posting will be from my own computer, upon which I can administer corrections to myself -- I am self-correcting. My epistemology, unfortunately, is not. In short, we can all agree that there really is an outside outside, but we will do this agreeing in language. We can't really write against the language, only against the language as we found it. In a Hopicentric world, the artist would be the envy of all nostalgiac non-Hopi writers. I am I because my little dog passed through the mirror stage of production. Oh where, oh where can he be. How much is that basket in the window? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 15:05:31 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X Comments: Resent-From: Alan Golding Comments: Originally-From: AVANTGAR%CMSNAMES.bitnet@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU From: Alan Golding Subject: DOING GENDER ON THE NET event Associate Professor of English, U. of Louisville Phone: (502)-852-5918; e-mail: acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu I thought this event might be of interest, given some of our recent discussions of gender and e-space. ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Received: from ULKYVM by ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU (Mailer R2.10 ptf000) with BSMTP id 0976; Mon, 03 Apr 95 13:28:57 EDT Received: from virginia.edu by ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Mon, 03 Apr 95 13:28:56 EDT Received: from jefferson.village.virginia.edu by uvaarpa.virginia.edu id aa11772; 3 Apr 95 13:20 EDT Received: by jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU (5.67a8/1.34) id AA39696; Mon, 3 Apr 1995 16:54:45 GMT Received: from MIT.EDU (MIT.MIT.EDU) by jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU (5.67a8/1.34) id AA28424; Mon, 3 Apr 1995 12:54:42 -0400 Received: from SITUATIONS.MIT.EDU by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA07041; Mon, 3 Apr 95 12:54:41 EDT Message-Id: <9504031654.AA07041@MIT.EDU> Date: Mon, 03 Apr 95 13:01:00 From: Jeremy Grainger To: avant-garde@jefferson.village.virginia.edu, fwlist-daily@fringeware.com Subject: DOING GENDER ON THE NET event Sender: owner-avant-garde@jefferson.village.virginia.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: avant-garde@jefferson.village.virginia.edu ------- Forwarded Message Subject: DOING GENDER ON THE NET event DOING GENDER ON THE NET An MIT Women's Studies 'Women in Cyberspace' Mini-Conference Friday, April 7, 1995 4-9pm Rm. 34-101, MIT 50 Vassar St., Cambridge, MA On April 7, 1995, the MIT Program in Women's Studies will continue its popular 'WOMEN IN CYBERSPACE' series with a mini-conference on the psychological, social, and theoretical issues raised by gender-bending practices on the Internet. A public town-hall style discussion -- mediated by a panel of scholars and net practitioners -- will begin at 4pm, pizza will be available from 6-7pm, and at 7pm, ALLUCQUERE ROSANNE (SANDY) STONE, a leading theoretician of the issue of gender and bodies in cyberspace will make a formal presentation featuring excerpts from her performance piece, "THE VAMPIRE'S KISS: REFLECTIONS ON LIQUID IDENTITY." Sandy Stone is Director of the Advanced Communication Technologies Laboratory at the University of Texas, Austin, and is also an Assistant Professor in their Radio, TV and Film Department. Her book "The War of desire and Technology at the Close of the Mechanical Age" will be published by the MIT Press in May 1995. Women in Cyberspace is sponsored by MIT Women's Studies, with support from the Offices of the Deans of the Schools of Engineering and of Humanities and Social Sciences. For more information, call 253-8844. ------- End of Forwarded Message --- from list avant-garde@lists.village.virginia.edu --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 15:11:15 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Alan Golding Subject: ian macdonald In-Reply-To: note of 04/03/95 14:52 Associate Professor of English, U. of Louisville Phone: (502)-852-5918; e-mail: acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu Chris Stroffolino: Are you thinking of O'Hara's "To the Film Industry in Crisis," which is on p. 232 of the recent O'Hara Collected? If not, no, I don't know the poem you're referring to. Wasn't there an Ian McDonald in the Doobies? Some kinda McDonald, anyway. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 13:17:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: Desire, Ira Lightman >I was really interested to see Dodie Bellamy's two succinct messages about >being "surprised to find such a sexy message on the poetics listserve" Really, Ira, my intention with my original message was simply to be playful--I thought. But maybe it was a passive-agressive impulse to be provocative. But, thanks for responding. >(& also to note, Dodie, your subtle qualification "I wasn't talking of >the individuals--just the discourse"). Dodie's remarks were touchstones >for my own reservations about the Poetics list and recent discussions. I feel strange writing anything on this listserve at all, since I'm not a member of it--Kevin is. This is no accident, I think. I could have easily had my name included. I think it is indicative of how I position myself as an outsider to this community. If I may be so bold as to offer what I imagine your reservations about Poetics list are about--I think, as far as the issue of sexuality goes--this is basically a heterosexual space, and there isn't the vocabulary for dealing with the sexual-beingness of the individuals involved like there is in a gay community. Kevin and I both live in two worlds that only occasionally overlap--Norma Cole, for instance has been joining us in that overlapping--a gay, mostly art and fiction world--and the basically heterosexual poetics community. In the gay world the individuals involved are seen as actively sexual beings and it's no big deal. In the heterosexual poetics world I get the sense that the sexuality of the members is treated some kind of secret--a "behind closed doors" type of thing. Some younger poets from the East Coast are a big exception to this massive, and I'm sure faulty, generalization of mine. Whenever I'm involved in the poetics community I try to act as neuter as possible, but I always feel I'm never neuter enough. I recently read Catherine Clement's Syncope: The Philosophy of Rapture, a book I cannot go into enough raptures about. It knocked my socks off. It is a book about rupture: religious ecstacy, passionate falling in love, orgasm, sneezing, swooning, depression, the dip in the Tango. If you think of sex in terms of rupture, it would certainly seem to be an important point in a discussion of poetics. XOX Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 15:14:10 -0400 Reply-To: John_Lavagnino@Brown.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Lavagnino Subject: A surprising publication The collected edition of Joe Brainard's *I Remember* has just been republished---by Penguin Books, of all people. I remember get-rich-quick schemes of selling hand-painted bridge tallies, inventing an umbrella hat, and renting myself out as an artist by the hour. I remember my high school art teacher's rather dubious theory that the way to tell if a painting is any good or not is to turn it upside down. I remember picture windows with not much view except other picture windows. I remember the rather severe angles of ``Oriental'' lamp shades. I remember, up high, wallpaper borders. John Lavagnino ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 16:14:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Re: Desire In-Reply-To: <199504031835.LAA15536@mailhost.primenet.com> Dear Ira: Wow! That absolutely captures exactly my own thoughts & anger w/respect to Ginsberg--& others--'s ABUSE OF POWER. ABUSE is what it is, people; we might have the guts, finally, to call it that. I know the soi-dissant lang po you're speaking of--hell, what younger poet doesn't? He won this year's "BUTTUFUOCO" Award in _Exile_ (another nominee being Ginsberg himself). A 20-something friend of mine here in St. Paul was absolutely POUNCED UPON by yet-another drunken, salivating, power-seeking CREEP (a "recently estranged" lang po) who wouldn't stop harrassing her *all night* DESPITE PROTESTS, after a reading a few years ago in Tucson (she used to work at the Poetry Center there; he was the visiting reader). Of course, NO ONE would help her out, pry the DIRTBAG off of her; that wouldn't have been "respectful" of the older, "accomplished" poet. My friend received a package from this slimeball--an "apology"--a month later, which INCLUDED COPIES OF SEVERAL OF HIS BOOKS. (!?!) Sickening, absolutely sickening. You're right to point out, Ira, that "hitting on" is rarely just that, & has as much to do with sex (or love) as rape. It's absolutely about POWER, its ABUSE. Thank you, Ira, for calling a spade a spade. The rest of you; you might bother lifting a finger the next time you see someone-- ALWAYS younger, "green"--being hurt like this. It's almost always done in public--as if, to paraphrase G. Bowering, that makes it "okey-dokey." Any of you think this is merely griping or (worse?) mud- slinging, YOU sit there all evening trying to dislodge some 40-, 50- or 60-year old's hand from YOUR pants, THEN you tell us we're overreacting. Thanks, again, Ira, for giving me the courage to say this. Yours, Gary ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 16:40:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mn Center For Book Arts Subject: Re: ian macdonald In-Reply-To: <2f80610169ce002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Dear Chris (we met long ago in Philadelphia through Gil Ott at Painted Bride, nice to talk with you) The Ian MacDonald who wrote the book about the Beatles is described on the book jacket as follows: "Formerly deputy editor of New Musical Express, which has long been at the forefront of reporting on popular music, Ian MacDonald is also an accomplished musician and composer. He is the author of The New Shostakovich, the widely acclaimed, definitive biography of the twentieth-century Russian composer. He lives in London." That's all I know about him except that he's a very confused & sometimes political thinker, often annoying, yet very perceptive about music, and provoking about its connections to politics & history. My guess is he's not one of the MacDonalds you mention. charles alexander ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 17:58:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Back to poetry no, it's l. for leonard, tho i happen to like delmore s. work a lot. very unfashionable, but very good. but the transcendental part, the boring are those who deny it yet again, again, again. as for sexy, any context, but who are those players? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 18:02:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Back to poetry (_Talisman_) hey, gary, who needs sleep? that's out of context. new t's getting in the mail bit by bit, and new terrific gerrit lansing, joe donahue, and gustaf sobin books follow in a few weeks. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 22:10:49 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: Re: ian macdonald > >Wasn't there an Ian McDonald in the Doobies? Some kinda McDonald, anyway. > >Alan I went to uni with a Ian McDonald in Sydney in the early 80s. He is now a musical director working in theatre....................... Mark Roberts Australian Writing OnLine ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 22:26:51 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: AWOL: April Happenings ******************************************************************************** AUSTRALIAN WRITING ONLINE is a small press distribution service which we hope will help Australian magazines, journals and publishers to reach a much wider audience through the internet. As a first step we will be posting information and subscription details for a number of magazines and publishers to a number of discussion groups and lists. We hope to build up a large emailing list which includes as many libraries as possible. If you know of a list or discussion group which you think might be worthwhile posting to or, if you would like to receive future postings, please contact AWOL directly on M.Roberts@unsw.edu.au. Please note that M.Roberts@unsw.edu.au is a temporary address until we set up our own address sometime later this year ******************************************************************************** Australian Writing OnLine AWOL Happings. A monthly guide to readings, book launches, conferences and other events relating to Australian literature both within Australia and overseas. If you have any item which you would like included in future listings please contact AWOL on email M.Roberts@unsw.edu.au or write to AWOL, PO Box 333, Concord NSW 2137, Australia. AWOL postings are also available by snail mail - please contact us for details. April 1995 Friday April 7. Fiction and poetry reading with Vera Newsom, Peter Kirkpatrick, Ann Davis and Matthew Karpin at 7.30pm in Borad Room of the NSW Writers Centre (The NSW Writers Centre is in the grounds of Rozelle Hospital. Enter from Balmian Road opposite Cecily Street). For further information ph 02 361 6467. Cost $5/$3. * Fifth birthday of Live Poets at 22 Napier Street North Sydney. Inquiries to Sue Hicks on 02 908 4527. * Saturday April 8. The nice little bookshop berry invite you to a night of HOT COLLATION. Chris Mansell, author of DELTA (1978), HEAD, HEART AND STONE (1982) and REDSHIFT/BLUESHIFT (1982), will read from her new collection DAY EASY SUNLIGHT FINE. Along with work by Jenny Boult, Coral Hull and Sue Moss, DAY EASY SUNLIGHT FINE forms part of Penguin Australia's new collection HOT COLLATION. HOT Collection will be launched by Peter Skrzynecki at 7pm at the nice little bookshop, Broughton Court, Queen Street, Berry NSW. For further information about the launch contact the nice little bookshop ph 044 64 2422 0r fax 044 642088. * Wednesday April 12 The Rozelle Readings at the NSW Writers Centre. Trevor Langlands and the Bradbury Inn Poets. 7.30 to 9.30pm. Enquiries Ann Davis 02 716 8969. * Sunday 30 April Closing date for ULITARRA ROBERT HARRIS POETRY PRIZE. Prize $500 and publication in ULITARRA 7. To enter send $8 for an entry form and a copy of Ulitarra 6 to PO Box 392, French's Forest NSW 2086. * April/May 1995 Australian Writers' Week Literature Festival in Germany at the University of Hamburg. Contact Bettina Keil, Brauerknechtgraben 55, 20495 Hamburg, Germany. Phone (040 36 4988 or fax 040 37 51 9526 * ********************************************** CONFERENCES Association for the Study of Australian Literature ASAL 2-7 July 1995 Adelaide The 1995 ASAL conference will be held at the historic Institute Building on North Terrace in the heart of Adelaide. Keynote Speaker: Paul Carter, author of The Road to Botany Bay and Living in a New Country. Dorothy Green Memorial Lecture: Drusilla Modjeska, author of Exiles at Home and Poppy. Enquiries: Phil Butterss, Department of English, University of Adelaide, Adelaide 5005. Ph: (08) 303 4562. Fax: (08) 303 4341. Email: pbutters@arts.adelaide.edu.au (AWOL will shortly be posting the ASAL 1995 program). ************ EUROPEAN ASSOCIATION FOR STUDIES ON AUSTRALIA Third conference: Copenhagen, October 6-9, 1995 Conference theme: Inhabiting Australia: The Australian Habitat and Australian Settlement. The conference aims to bring together contributions from a wide range of disciplines, from architecture to zoology. Papers which take up the theme from cultural, historical, social, scientific, literary and other perspectives are invited. Deadline for registration, May 1, 1995. Further information available from Conference organisers: * Bruce Clunies Ross (45) 35 32 85 82 internet: bcross@engelsk.ku.dk * Martin Leer (45) 35 32 85 87 internet: leer@engelsk.ku.dk * Merete Borch (45) 35 32 85 84 internet: borch@engelsk.ku.dk Copenhagen University, Department of English Njalsgade 80, DK-2300 Kobenhavn S Tlf. (45) 35 32 86 00 Fax (45) 35 32 86 15 Eva Rask Knudsen Wiedeweldtsgade 50, st. 2100 Copenhagen O. (45) 35266025 ******************** Mark Roberts Australian Writing OnLine ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 23:18:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: Espousing Update 4/3 (Long) X-cc: Alyssa_Litoff@brown.edu, ST202220@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU, AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU, aeb0564@is2.nyu.edu, ENG104@UKCC.UKY.EDU, hallwall@tmn.com, chadwick@crl.com, aweissbard@eagle.wesleyan.edu, st001549@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU, cbeach@selway.umt.edu, Alyssa_Litoff@brown.edu, ST202220@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU, AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU, aeb0564@is2.nyu.edu, ENG104@UKCC.UKY.EDU, hallwall@tmn.com, chadwick@crl.com, aweissbard@eagle.wesleyan.edu, st001549@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU, cbeach@selway.umt.edu CONTENTS: + BACK FROM THE INTERMISSION + POETRY FLASH + SOME WEB SITES THAT HAVE INFO ON FEDERAL ARTS FUNDING + A CALENDAR OF INFORMATION + BONUS (?!): JOHN SILBER'S DEFENSE OF THE NEA-- "We live, after all, in an age when John Cage was taken seriously as a composer." ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ BACK FROM THE INTERMISSION This *Freely Espousing* update, the first one since 7 March, is organized primarily in calendar form and is meant to supplement previous Updates (in a few particulars) as well as to circulate information about developments in the last month. From our perspective, the struggle to preserve federal arts funding is now at a strange juncture. Key figures from the corporate media and the ideological right (cf. the John Silber editorial reproduced here from the Congressional Record, below) have recently come out in favor of preserving the NEA in some form and the question appears to be shifting from one of brute survival to what kind of "re-organization" arts funding will undergo. For instance, single author grants look to be a major casualty in the latest battles (cf. Ralph Regular's remarks on 16 March, also below). This means more power to the managers, and less to the makers, of culture. Imaginative long-term alternatives to preserving the bureacrats while eliminating the artists are still urgently needed! As always, corrections, additions, and further speculations are welcome. Sentimental though it may sound, we hate nothing more than uni-directional information flows. POETRY FLASH *Poetry Flash* 259 (March 1995) contains a brief report on Freely Espousing under the somewhat inexplicable title "Flashback." The account is on the inside back cover (p.39) and aside from the title and an intro graph that locates us in "Provincetown, Rhode Island," it ran pretty much as we had (hurriedly) written it in the week following 28 January. Unfortunately, Flash editors decided not to run an account Kevin Magee and Myung Mi Kim had put together about a Bay area event on 27 January. SOME WEB SITES THAT HAVE INFO ON FEDERAL ARTS FUNDING American Arts Alliance Home Page http://www.tmn.com/0h/Artswire/www/aaa/aaahome.html ArtsUSA http://www.artsusa.org/ Arts Wire Home Page Front Door http://www.tmn.com/0h/Artswire/www/awfront.html Saving the NEA, NEH, and CPB http://132.162.165.174/ Thomas: Legislative Information on the Internet http://thomas.loc.gov/ The Electronic Democracy Forum (EDF) http://edf.www.media.mit.edu [According to a recent edition of *Hotwire*, the EDF is generating resistance to the Contract With America. EDF'S e-mailed legislative alerts are sent to all subscribers several days before critical votes in the House and Senate or before potential Presidential vetoes. The alerts contain the names, numbers and brief descriptions of bills, along with contact information (e-mail, phone, fax & post) for your two Senators. To join, send your e-mail address, state abbreviation and zip code to edf@world.std.com. EDF will correlate your state with your Senators and will then contact you about important upcoming votes and other Congressional news.] =====A CALENDAR OF INFORMATION===== 6 FEBRUARY: CLINTON BUDGET Under Clinton's proposed budget, the NEA would be funded at $172.4m, the NEH at $182m, and the IMS for $29.8m. These figures represent a 3% increase over current funding levels. 28 FEBRUARY: NY ARTISTS OPPOSE CONTRACT 1 MARCH: MICHAEL GREENE ON GRAMMY AWARDS Michael Greene, CEO of the National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences, delivers a pro-NEA speech (and provides the advocacy 1-800 number) in the opening moments of the Grammy broadcast. Usage of the advoacy number spikes tremendously. 14 MARCH: NATIONAL ADVOCACY DAY From reading the papers, one knows only that Garth Brooks, Michael Bolton, and Kenny G. urged Congress to maintain federal funding for the arts (Brooks meets with Newt Gingrich, etc. We're working on getting a de-celebritized account of the day, but since follow-up rarely matches build-up this may take some digging. If anyone receiving this Update participated in the days events, e-mail us your impressions. Further Note: In a Sunday New York Times op-ed piece (19 Mar 1995: E15), Frank Rich describes the impact of this intervention as follows: "For the first time in the culture war of '95, the anti-N.E.A. forces were thrown on the defensive." Rich attributes the development to Michael Greene's assumption leadership in pro-N.E.A camp: "A Georgian who overlapped with Mr. Gingrich at West Georgia College, Mr. Greene first took command at the Grammy Awards on March 1, when, in defiance of CBS dictums, he gave an endowment-advocacy speech with an 800 number (651-1575)." 16 MARCH: HOUSE RESCISSIONS PROCESS [FY 1995] By a vote of 260 to 168, Florida Republican Cliff Stearns's amendment to the House rescission package--tripling the cut to unobligated NEA funds for 95--was defeated. A spokesperson for the National Assembly of Local Arts Agency characterized this as "a clear victory" in that seventy-five House Republicans crossed party lines to defeat the Stearns Amendment and keep the rescission figure at its original $5m. From Stearns's remarks introducing the Amendment: "My colleagues, remember, this has to go to the conference committee. Traditionally, historically, when it goes to the conference committee, they cut it even further down. So I say to my friends here in the House, let's make at least a modicum of a cut, 9 percent total, so if it goes to conference and it comes back, we will not be left like we did last year with a 2.5 percent reduction after we labored for hours on the House floor to get just a mere 5 percent" (*Congressional Record* H3290-93). From Ralph Regula's remarks: "I just want to advise Members of the situation. In the subcommittee, we took out $5 million from NEA, remembering last year we cut it 2 percent on the floor and sustained that in the conference. That $5 million comes out of individual grants. There will be no money left in the NEA for individual grants which have been the problem. None. Zero. If this amendment is passed, this will have to come out of the grants all over the United States to small communities with symphonies, ballet, and museums. It will mean the concert on the mall on the Fourth of July and Memorial Day, I hope many Members have seen it on C-SPAN, it is a great thing. Basically, if you vote for this amendment, you are voting against those small amounts that reach out across the United States for educational programs, for the small groups within the communities, for the grants to the State arts commissions. You are not voting against individual grants. We have already eliminated all the money for the individual grants in the subcommittee which was ratified by the full Committee on Appropriations. The Committee on Educational and Economic Opportunities will have to hear the question of reauthorizing the NEA, so that is the place to deal with the problem. If we do not want NEA, we do not have to reauthorize it for fiscal year 1996 and prospectively. But let us not cut out that little bit of money that is being spread across the United States to many of the things that you cherish in each of your respective communities" (*Congressional Record* 3290-93). Further Note: As of the 15th, there had been six NEA-related Amendments allowed. Only the Stearns Amendment (tripling the rescission cut) was actually introduced. A breakdown of the six may be of interest with respect to FY 96 budget struggles, so here it is: *three were by Phil Crane (R-IN): one to rescind all unobligated funds; one to rescind $15m; one to rescind $10m. * Bob Barr (R-GA) offered an amendment virtually identical to Stearns's. * Finally, Jerrold Nadler (D-NY) planned to offer an amendment to restore the $5m rescission cut to the NEA. 16 MARCH: John Kasich, the Ohio Republican who chairs the House Budget Committee, presented an illustrative list of spending cuts (to make up for the proposed Republican tax bill) that included elimination of the NEA and NEA. 23 MARCH: COMMUNICATIONS DECENCY ACT OF 1995 The Senate Commerce Committee passed telecom legislation that included an amended version of the Communications Decency Act of 1995, commonly known as "the Exon Amendment." This draft was introduced by Sen. Slade Gorton (R-VT). For amendment text, updates and action alerts, see: ftp.eff.org, /pub/Alerts/ gopher.eff.org, 1/Alerts http://www.eff.org/pub/Alerts/ For more information, contact the Electronic Frontier Foundation ask@eff.org +1 202 861 7700 (voice), +1 202 861 1258 (fax) 24 MARCH: SENATE RESCISSIONS PROCESS [FY 1995] The Senate Appropriations Committee, chaired by Senator Mark Hatfield (R-OR), met to consider the FY 95 rescission package. Note: This was a somewhat disappointing development; if the consideration of rescissions had been postponed until after the upcoming recess the NEA/NEH could have proceeded with scheduled awards. Further Note: The Comittee recommended a $5m cut in FY 95 unobligated funds for NEA. While the figure is the same as it was in the House, the Senate Committee's recommendation did not stipulate that individual grants be targetted. 27 MARCH: OSCAR AWARDS Although less focused than the Grammies, the broadcast did include pro-NEA speeches by the President of the Academy and Lifetime Achievement honoree Quincy Jones (and Jamie Lee Curtis was wearing her postage stamps). The publicity also occasioned some backlash; in the Providence Journal an op-ed pounced on the contradiction of a profit-driven medium like Hollywood cinema pleading for public monies for preservation. 29 MARCH: STUDENTS ACT AGAINST CONTRACT WITH AMERICA "Students at universities around the country held rallies, marches, teach-ins and vigils today to protest both proposed Federal cuts in education and the Republicans' Contract With America, which they said was responsible" ("Students Protest Education Cuts at Rallies Around US" by Peter Applebombe, NYTimes 30 March 1995). For information, contact: the Campus Activists' Network (CANET), which hosts the CAN-ER mailing list, a forum for campus activists working to stop cuts in government support for higher education. The list is facilitated by Sarah Lund of Student Action Coalition at Kent State, who will try to keep discussion focused on activism around tuition and student aid cuts. For more information on CANET, send any message to: canet-info@pencil.cs.missouri.edu. 29 MARCH Senate (floor) consideration of FY 95 rescission package results in proposed $5m cut to NEA, and $5m to NEH. 5 APRIL: HOUSE APPROPRIATIONS PROCESS [FY 1996] The House Committee on Interior Appropriations (chair, Ralph Regula) will hold a meeting to consider 1996 funding for the NEA at 10:00 AM in Rayburn B308. Jane Alexander is scheduled to testify. 8 APRIL - 30 APRIL Senate recess. Schedule meetings with your Senators. 8 APRIL - 23 APRIL House recess. Schedule meetings with your Representatives. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ JOHN SILBER ON THE ARTS IN AMERICA (Senate - March 30, 1995) > > [Page: S4840] > > Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. President, in a thoughtful article in the Boston > Globe entitled `Funding the Arts Enriches the Nation,' John Silber, > president of Boston University, provides an eloquent reminder of the > importance of the arts to the spirit of our Nation. President Silber > effectively rebuts the negative myths about the National Endowment for > the Arts and states the necessity and desirability of continued > funding of the arts . NEA represents only one-half of 1 percent of the > Federal budget. The program it funds and disseminates to neighborhoods > and communities across America are eminently deserving of this > moderate level of Federal support. > > I commend this article to my colleagues and I ask unanimous consent > that it may be printed at this point in the Record. > > There being no objection, the article was ordered to be printed in the > Record, as follows: > > From the Boston Globe, Mar. 20, 1995 > > Funding the Arts Enriches the Nation > > (By John Silber) > > The 104th Congress has brought with it an open season on federal > support for culture. Members of the congressional leadership have > proposed defunding public broadcasting, and two former heads of the > National Endowment for the Humanities testified that it ought to be > terminated and advised the same fate for the National Endowment for > the Arts . > > The most common charge made against public broadcasting is bias toward > the left, and those who would impose a death sentence on two > endowments continually trot out the same horror stories. > > With regard to the NEA, the cases in point are some items in an > exhibit of Robert Mapplethorpe's photographs, an alleged work of art > called `Piss Christ' by Andres Serrano and a piece of blood-spattered > performance art by Ron Athey. > > The NEH has subsidized a ludicrously tendentious set of standards for > the teaching of history and has funded the Modern Language > Association, the professional association of literary scholars, as it > deconstructs into vulgarity and irrevelence. > > These genuine horror stories are not so much the doing of the > endowments as irrepressible eruptions of contemporary culture. It is > very likely they would have occurred without government subsidy. We > live, after all, in an age when John Cage was taken seriously as a > composer. > > But these are only the horror stories. The solid achievements of the > endowments are ignored in favor of their few sensational mistakes. > > The NEA has provided startup funds for a vigorous movement of regional > theaters and enriched the musical life in the nation through the support of > orchestras and other > performance groups. The NEH has, among other activities, supported > some of the most distinguished programs on public television, such as > `Masterpiece Theatre' and `The Civil War.' > > Such successes have enriched the intellectual and artistic life of > millions of Americans, and they have been far more influential than > the comparatively few failures. > > Nor is it true that PBS is, as a whole, a liberal enclave. There are, > of course programs on PBS made from a liberal perspective and > sometimes this perspective amounts to a bias that distorts reality. > But PBS is also studded with programs produced from a conservative > perspective. > > And the great majority of PBS programs are about as free of ideology > as is humanely possible. Consider one recent case, a history of the > Cold War called `Messengers from Moscow.' The final episode of the > series was made up largely of interviews with Soviet politicians, > bureaucrats and generals. Most of them agreed that the Soviet Union > had been a fraud, and that the US challenge, orchestrated largely by > Ronald Reagan, had brought the Soviet system down and made them see > reality. > > Jimmy Carter appeared as the man who first terrified the Soviets by > considering the neutron bomb, and then was snookered into abandoning > it by a massive propaganda assault. A Russian general explained that > had the neutron bomb been deployed, the Soviet strategy of > overwhelming NATO with tanks would have been rendered useless. > > This politically incorrect program was produced by a PBS station with > major funding from the NEH. It is representative of federally > subsidized culture at its objective best, and it is impossible to > imagine it on commercial television. > > If we extended the standard of perfection now being applied to PBS and > the endowments to other institutions, we should have long ago > terminated the Congress, the State Department, the presidency and > every known agency of government. In addition we should have > eliminated all hospitals, schools, colleges and universities and dealt > with all churches as Henry VIII dealt with the monasteries of England. > > The NEA has frequently endorsed the notion that the sole duty of art > is to provoke and outrage. Great art will, sometimes, do exactly that. > But that is a consequence, not an end. Monet outraged many of the > bourgeoisie, but that was not his intention, only a result of the > impact his vision of light had on people raised on a diet of academic > realism. > > Public broadcasting and the Endowments consume only 1/50 th of 1 > percent of the federal budget. By helping to preserve and disseminate > culture they have contributed value far exceeding their modest > funding. Terminating these useful agencies on the basis of a few > sensational mistakes will do little to balance the budget but will > deprive the country of much value. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 13:43:19 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland Subject: Re: ian macdonald X-To: LS0796%ALBNYVMS.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu Dear Chris, I believe Old MacDonald had a farm. Up North. Is this any help? Wystan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 00:07:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Colleen Lookingbill Subject: Re: Responsibility Where can I sign up for the Ed Foster fan club? In the last few weeks your posts have been consistently the best of the list for me - perhaps your brevity adds to the delight. I'd never have enough guts to say the *boring* word. Ooops! guess I did! from - I'm your fan - Colleen Lookingbill ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 00:40:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Byrum Subject: GENERATOR Press 1995 Catalogue Books and mags available from GENERATOR Press: Magazines: GENERATOR 6: Dissembling/Dismantling (1994) $6.00 GENERATOR 7: Contemporary Alternatives (1995) $9.00 (available hopefully Fall 1995) Chapbook Series: And, Miekel: SASE, A Mail Installation $4.00 Andrews, Bruce: Moebius $4.00 Barone, Dennis: A Matter of Habit $5.00 Beckett, Tom: Separations $4.00 Byrum, John: Fork Shift $5.00 Byrum, John: i.e. $4.00 Byrum, John: meant $5.00 Byrum, John: Meat of Four Percepts $5.00 Falleder, Arnold: William Said $5.00 Ganick, Peter: (untitled) $4.00 Higgins, Dick: The Autobiography of the Moon $5.00 Hill, Crag: Trains Sl:ay Huns $4.00 Kostelanetz, Richard: March $3.00 Lazer, Hank: Inter(ir)ruptions $4.00 Martin, Stephen-Paul: Invading Reagan $4.00 Nash, Susan Smith: Pornography $4.00 Perlman, John: Beacons Imaging Within/As Promises $4.00 Selby, Spenser: Malleable Cast $10.00 Silliman, Ron: Jones $5.00 Postage & handling: Add $1.00 per title for orders of 5 books or less. Add $5.00 total for orders of 6 or more books. ORDER FROM: GENERATOR Press 8139 Midland Road Mentor OH 44060 USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 21:54:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: Boring In-Reply-To: <9504031716.AA12607@imap1.asu.edu> A Person Tired Of Theory Is Tired Of Life, or something like that.... Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 22:30:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Julius Hemphill In-Reply-To: <9504040401.AA04187@isc.sjsu.edu> I just received word that the brilliant alto sax player and composer Julius Hemphill died yesterday, at 57. If you've listened to early World Saxophone Quartet, you know his work. If you have never heard him, get a copy of _Dogon A.D._ and listen carefully. Julius was a great friend to poets and often worked with poets' texts in his compositions. Since his illness began to make it difficult to perform, his compositions have been presented in public frequently by the Julius Hemphill Sextet. If we could only listen to each other as attentively and inventively as Julius listened to the other musicians in his bands . . . ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 02:15:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Boring Jeffrey TImons writes "A person Tired Of theory Is Tired Of Life, or something like that..." Flipper sang "You're so bored coz you're boring"-- But i always think about how BORING can be taken two ways which prevents me from "using" it half the time....CS ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 15:17:39 WET Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "I.LIGHTMAN" Subject: Re: Desire, Ira Lightman Hi everyone, I did want to say publically to Gary, thanks really deeply for your response to my mail, it put a lot of the verve in that I was too reasonably avoiding. Also, Dodie, thanks too for your response; I'm sorry I didn't make it utterly clear that I really enjoyed the pleasantry of your original message, that I wasn't offering a reading of it, but moved, laterally, to touchstone off it. A lot of what you say brilliantly contextualises what I was trying to say; one of the things I love about Mirage is the fact that writing about sex is so common and happy in it, that all sorts of things come out into the open. One is that its writers clearly are also readers of Mirage, and realize that to write about sex for it is not to be unusual per se; and this in turn creates a creative impetus to present sex differently, not simply as a given or a rebus (I'm almost certainly using this word wrongly) but as a genre, to be added to in detail, questioned, opened up, written about thoroughly; as a result, a lot of the issues I was describing in my post have room to breathe, and do come out. I agree with you absolutely that the avant-garde space is so often heterosexual; one rarely sees the same deliberate care over always writing the reader as s/he or she, when discussing desire, longing, fantasy; such that these things become conventional, channeled, rather than free, open. A lot of my own politics come from active participation in the bi movement where, I often think for the spurious slightly numbnut reason that people think being bi is about never being fulfilled in one's lust for a whole gender by one partner of that gender, non-monogamy is the key discussion and workshop issue. Polygamy is a very different thing from promiscuity, is the one thought I have to say nearly every day versus unthinking prejudice. But an issue I haven't got onto the agenda as much as I'd like it got there is: as I was saying in my message, that the intense heart also makes me polygamous, with collaborators, lovers and friends "competing" (hopefully not, in fact). There is, of course, the most common point made in polygamy workshops, that lovers in more than one sexual relationship often envy their lover's *friendships* more than other *sexual* relationships - but that's not fully what I mean, as I'm talking about *art* relationships, *perception* relationships. You're absolutely right, Dodie, in my experience that these are commonly discussed, non-feared, maturely-discussed issues outside usual heterosexual space, and thanks entirely for your posting. Ira ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 10:58:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Desire oh, gary, come on; the "victims" are exactly in nursery school. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 11:00:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Desire oops, meant "aren't" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 08:15:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: 40, 50, and 60 year olds Hi, this is really from Kevin and not from Dodie. Dear Gary Sullivan, I can't decide how disingenuous you're being when, in describing the horror of sexual harassment, you ask us how would you like it if some 40, 50, 60 year old guy had his hands down your pants, as though the increasing decades made the horror more exponential. As though if the guy was 30 it wouldn't be so bad and 20 maybe actually okay or groovy. Please clarify on this important point. Otherwise you're summoning up some hypothetical bogeyman to scare young poets & playing into a social construction of a predator (the predator is incredibly old, ancient, even tho' he may try to look young) (age itself is horror) (the older one gets, the more vampiric the sexual predator becomes as he needs the young blood of poets) (the prey, finally, ages much more slowly than the old, 40, 50, 60- year old predator?) Yours-Kevin Killian, aet 42 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 11:16:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Desire back to that desire business: recall wallace stevens (must have been 40, if a day): "a ring of men / Shall chant in orgy on a summer morn . . . ./ Their chant shall be a chant of paradise." Yah, yah, yah!!!! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 09:50:29 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher J Beach Subject: poeticslist Greetings to all friends and acquaintances on the list, which I have recently joined (and thanks to "cb," who, incidentally, has the same initials as I do). I have been enjoying many of the discussions on the list, especially those on "close reading" and "hallmark cards." Thanks, Maria, for your insightful comments. Also thanks to Ken for the compiled list of fascinating things people are reading. I wish I had half the time it would take to look into all of them. My one observation about the list so far (and this is based only on about a month-long perusal of its contents) is that a lot of the postings seem to be more like "private" conversations between two individuals than information or discussion that would be useful to the community as a whole. Is this a fair statement, or am I missing something? Often these messages seem like they could just as easily be sent to one person than to 200. I'm not trying to "restrict" anyone's use of the list, but it seems like with the ever-growing numbers of messages that come in (sometimes nearly 30 a day) some consideration could be given to how interesting/relevant things are going to be for everyone (and how much time it takes to go thru and digest all the messages. There was also a question recently about dividing the list into more specific interests. What is the status, or history, of this idea? How would it work? Anyway, thank you all for your knowledge, wisdom, and sense of play (free or otherwise). Chris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 12:16:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Desire, Ira Lightman as for that "heterosexual space," i say "enough of that blankety blank blank blank." sorry, can't be more specific or might look like one of gary's over-40 leches, so wil just have to leave it there: "heterosexual space" is just plain "blankety blank." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 17:29:38 WET Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "I.LIGHTMAN" Subject: Re: Desire Please excuse me if I modestly remove my name from this byline. I sent my post about Gary and Dodie's before receiving Kevin's. I think, as ever Kevin, you raise vital points about what slips through and into Gary (and my own) fierce remonstrances about sexual violence. Absolutely, agism is terrible, and is going on under cover of this debate, which is really about power and responsibility. I can think of a lot of visual artists who can get a lot of power when very young and misuse it, which *would* be yucky if it followed the lines of the abuse of a fan who wanted to get some encouragement as a *person* and *artist*, as Gary and I have been saying. There remains, however, the issue of seniority, taking on the trappings of respect as a senior and distinguished (Ginsberg) or political and radical (the unnamed soi-disant langauge poet), but not buying the whole package, which is one's own responsibilites to behave ethically if one is selling oneself/agreeing to be sold as a political or senior figure. And, even if not for that, it's yucky to not take no for an answer, and yucky, as Gary says, for everyone to stand back and let the powerful (let's not say older) visiting artist harass someone who has said no. Of course, yourself, the delightful Kevin, who was such a courteous and generous (intellectually and hospitably) person when I visited San Fransisco last year, and who remains an open, utterly non-harassing and non-violent, friendly face and person, are utterly right to refuse this agist stereotyping. But I know so many who fit it; nevertheless, let us keep the discussion precisely focussed, and talk about *power* not *age*. Ira ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 19:15:12 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: desire Whose freedom was there in free love? For as the Customs Man would have said: 'everyone there is in chains". Out of the verifiable mouths of babes and lionesses comes the plaintive singing 'b-o-r-e-d f-r-e-e; free as the win . .' It is the poet who has nothing left to contribute who trades off their previous 'success' by abusing and exploiting the image of the romantic - bohemian (often under the cloak of rinks and rugs (sic)) thereby projecting back onto society the stereotypical image of the poet which 'society' still projects onto them because of their predictable revelling (o rage rage against the dying of delight) in modish vacant husks - like the cynical vacuity of empires trading on and off their former 'pomp and glory'. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 11:55:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: Desire, Ira Lightman >But an issue I haven't got onto the agenda as much as I'd like it got there is: >as I was saying in my message, that the intense heart also makes me >polygamous, with collaborators, lovers and friends "competing" (hopefully not, >in fact). There is, of course, the most common point made in polygamy >workshops, that lovers in more than one sexual relationship often envy their >lover's *friendships* more than other *sexual* relationships - but that's >not fully what I mean, as I'm talking about *art* relationships, *perception* >relationships. You're right, Ira, sex is more than churning bodyparts. We don't have to read Lacan to know that. Per Christopher Beach's suggestions about overloading the list with personal converstions, I'll write to you personally about your lifestyle choices. Soon, Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 13:30:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lindz Williamson Subject: Dentistry In-Reply-To: <199504020239.SAA03758@unixg.ubc.ca> Responding to Blair, but not wanting to aleinate anyone else, Word of advice do not leave this thing on over the weekend, what a nightmare. Forgive me if my train of thought is jumbled but I just scanned through 60 messages. Transidental erotica seems to be the hot topic now, so let see what I can say. Reply to Blair's getting a grip on reality, I fully comprehend. We can not afford to live outside of our era, or generation. Images can stand the test of time, see life magazine for evidence of that. One of my favorite collections of poetic interpretation of canvas is Stephen Dobyns' collection the Balthus poems(1982), especially "Getting Up". Everyone should check it out. Along the same lines he his collection Body Traffic(1990) has some delightful( I can't believe i used delightful, more like toe curling) works on desire, particularily "The Body's Curse", "Desire" and "The Body's Hope". i've been thinking about the somewhat erotic aspect of this list as someone just pointed out there are a series of personal converations going on and we are all voyuers looking in, salvating for the next witty line. And now we can't hold off sex must be discussed. Which I was lying in waiting for(actually I wondered if it was forbidden) , but being a new comer I didn't want to seem too eager in corrupting the system. sex and poetry are the two most absorbing aspects of my life and I find Ryan's idea of writing away from language intriguing if I could combine it with writing away from sex ( lust, desire, emotion and gender). The subjective is what I need to turn away from, but I find that emensely difficult as i write for my time, I write for what I belive in. Sex is my Religion. So if my words seem transcdental it is merely the sound of my soul across my teeth. Lindz (lindsey is how you say it) Ps. Hey Ryan quit lurking in on my conversations you academic pervert, and you better buy my a pint next Wednesday. my courage will be coming from the beer. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 13:39:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lindz Williamson Subject: totem poles In-Reply-To: <199504020239.SAA03758@unixg.ubc.ca> Blair wrote, I see primitive art like those wonderful totem poles in BC Hey don't you be calling totem poles primitive, native maybe but not primitive. And yes they are wonderful. I often go out to the museum of Anthropology to sit and read under them, I live close enough to campus that i venture out there often to lay in the grass and watch the descendents of Bill Reid( famous Haida Artist) carve away in the long house. It feels nice to stare into space with the paws of a grizzly bear hovering above your head. Lindz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 09:01:00 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: ian macdonald W Curnow writes: Dear Chris, I believe Old MacDonald had a farm. Up North. Is this any help? Wystan Confirming this with the well-known song, in its local Auckland art-scene variant VERSE I believe Yeah yeah Old I sd old Macdonald had a farm up north Yeah Ld have mercy a life-style farm till an agent told him how much it was Worth [to Dior] & he yeah and he cashed in CHORUS Old MacDonald had a farm And on that farm he had a ...... corporate sponsor Ee AY Ee Ay Yo etc With a glug-glug here and a handshake there Here a glug there a glug everywhere a glug glug... Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 18:11:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rae Armantrout Subject: Re: Desire, Ira Lightman I don't know about this image of the Powerful Poet and the Put-Upon Maiden. Poets don't really have power, do they? Not even A.G. At most they have fame. Now some people think fame will rub off if you can get close to it, but I don't think so. I know there are other things to be said about this issue, but there's also this. Rae Armantrout ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 15:28:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lindz Williamson Subject: Re: desire In-Reply-To: <199504042117.OAA20848@unixg.ubc.ca> Be not afeard;the isle if full of noises, Sounds and sweet airs that give delight and hurt not. Sometimes a thousand twnaging instruments Will hum about mine ears; and sometimes voices That, if I then had waked after long sleep, Will make me sleep again; and then, in dreaming, The clouds methought would open and show riches Ready to drop upon me,that, when I waked, I cried to dream again. This is desire, atleast when you're studing for your Shakespeare final this is desire. Lindz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 22:22:32 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: poeticslist and Desire The question of what are and what aren't appropriate multiple postings has been raised again (C. Beach). This feeds back somewhat into the rapidly emergent discussions on 'desire' which I welcome. Any further thoughts on 'public' and 'private' - 'interpersonal' and ? 'poetry' cris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 21:01:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Desire ira, gary, etc.: poet not on this heard of gary's problem with the over-40, so called, asked that i post reminder of yeats' "the spur" in which as old man he writes of "lust and rage": "What else have I to spur me into song?" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 20:42:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Eric M. Gleason" Subject: Re: poeticslist (Chris Beach) In-Reply-To: Christopher J Beach "poeticslist" (Apr 4, 9:50am) I count myself among those that do much more lurking around this list than contributing, and in part I agree with you, Chris. It does seem to me that a great deal of the conversations on here are between just a few people, but if those were moved to private email, the rest of us would lose out on some very interesting threads, not to mention the ideas that spinoff those conversations. -- ________________________________________________________________________________ "Just call me Eric" Eryque Gleason 71 E. 32nd St. Box 949 gleaeri@xtreme2.acc.iit.edu Chicago, Il 60616 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 22:48:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Blair Seagram Subject: Re: Back to poetry (was it 3?) In-Reply-To: <199504030424.AAA05691@panix4.panix.com> Dear Charles: Regarding the part of your message that reads: "While I sometimes find myself working within the trappings of this sort of thinking, I also wonder what such thoughts have to do with artists working from and sometimes within such cultures as the Hopi and Zuni, or hundreds of cultures throughout the world (and by no means are all the practices of such artists "traditional" in senses understood by their culture or this generalized Western one) whose practices deserve to be considered as legitimate or central as any other, including the one in which we hold ourselves up to Nietzschean prophecies." I admit I am ignorant of what the Hopi are up to today and have no knowledge of the Zuni. That these voices may be drowned by so much noise is no ones fault but my own. If one is enriched by these cultures so much the better. If cultures like these can proceed without interference from us (what shall we call ouselves, western, developed, imperial?) they have a chance to maintain their dignity. If we interfere with their lifestyles we commit a most obvious act of aggression. Being a product of western culture, it seems natural to try to grasp the course of events that have lead us to our present circumstances. If we can see cultures like the Hopi as something to be understood and learned from rather than conquered then we have at least begun the relationship on a footing of respect. This is so easy to say in the abstact, but with regard to the North American Indian, it becomes more personal. One cannot deny the damage that has been done. But in a way, I resent the fact that many people today are being held responsible for a charter that was made two hundred years ago between the government of Canada and the Indians. And part of the reason I resent it is because I see people who have owned a piece of land for three or four generations, now under attack by any one who has an ounce of Indian blood in them, claiming that the land is theirs. How does one begin to right all the wrongs? How do you turn back time? I know this is slightly off the topic, and I only lay myself open to criticism. But as I glibly acknowlegde the validity of other cultures in a totally different mind set, I am acutely aware of the difficulty of settling the differences that are result of western civilization and its desire to conquer. Blair ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 22:52:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Blair Seagram Subject: Re: Kenny's list In-Reply-To: <199504030424.AAA05691@panix4.panix.com> I too would like to thank you, Kenneth Goldsmith, for putting it all together. Love ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 23:27:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Blair Seagram Subject: Re: writing in resistance to language In-Reply-To: <199504030424.AAA05691@panix4.panix.com> Dear Ryan: In resonse to your remark "I also agree with your comments that this is an age abandoning the transcendental. But if you write in resistance to language, widening its holes, flirting with contradictions or the its take upon "reality", is this not a transcendental pursuit? Perhaps it's just mask in place stuff. (looking forward to your reading next Wedn. Lindz)" Several years ago I read a book called "Literature Against Itself" by Gerald Graff and I think it spoke to this issue. To answer your question, yes, I think literature can go against itself in order to make a point. In fact that may be the only way to do it. But I think there is a qualifer, namely, that you go against something with a purpose. You go against it to show its fallacy. To resist for resistance sake leads nowhere and is destructive. To resist with a purpose is a way to move beyond and that is positive. I don't think of Nietzsche as negative for the sake of negativity. He saw a truth, in fact he saw several truths, and expressed them. So if he we can get his drift, that may help us to see things more clearly. I have read art critics who blame the state of current affairs in the art world on Nietzsche and while I may agree with the state of affairs, I would hardly blame them on Nietzsche. In a way, I see Nietzsche as purely positive. I read somewhere that Emerson was the only philosopher that Nietzsche did not dismiss or criticize. Best wishes Blair ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 22:19:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: Desire In-Reply-To: <9504041657.AA26286@imap1.asu.edu> On Tue, 4 Apr 1995, Edward Foster wrote: > back to that desire business: recall wallace stevens (must have been 40, if a day): "a ring of men / Shall chant in orgy on a summer morn . . . ./ Their chant shall be a chant of paradise." Yah, yah, yah!!!! This Stevens poem is a wonderful appropriation of the feminine; I've always thought it a wonderful performance of drag: the male poet using feminine space to reinsert male privilege. Sort of a confused Whitmanianism; confused because it tries to reconcile its opposite in the guise of the male.... Kidding. Not really. See Frank Lentricchia's book Ariel and the Police, where he suggests Stevens is acting a bit of transvestisism (sp) here. Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 22:26:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: poeticslist and Desire In-Reply-To: <9504042257.AA27545@imap1.asu.edu> On Tue, 4 Apr 1995, cris cheek wrote: > The question of what are and what aren't appropriate multiple postings has > been raised again (C. Beach). This feeds back somewhat into the rapidly > emergent discussions on 'desire' which I welcome. > > Any further thoughts on 'public' and 'private' - 'interpersonal' and ? > 'poetry' I like the proliferation. . . and the conversations, as multiple and elliptical as they are, with their blend and blur of publicandprivate. . . . Let desire multiple, it will not be contained by the Law of/or by the Father (even if he is bored) and the blankety-blank will be the sign of what remains just out of reach . . . and for good reason. . . . Laughter. . . . again, always.... Huh, Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 23:12:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Spencer Selby Subject: Re: Power In-Reply-To: <199504050155.SAA15168@> I think all poets who don't have power should give up all the power they don't have. Then if nothing changes, we'll know that Rae is right. Spencer Selby On Tue, 4 Apr 1995, Rae Armantrout wrote: > I don't know about this image of the Powerful Poet and the Put-Upon > Maiden. Poets don't really have power, do they? Not even A.G. At most they > have fame. Now some people think fame will rub off if you can get close to > it, but I don't think so. I know there are other things to be said about this > issue, but there's also this. > > Rae Armantrout > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 22:37:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: Dentistry In-Reply-To: <9504042341.AA01775@imap1.asu.edu> On Tue, 4 Apr 1995, Lindz Williamson wrote: Sex is my Religion. "Sex and Religion, why can't we love christ in our bed?" Steve Vai, Sex and Religion Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 15:50:05 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Geraets Subject: Re: Desire, Ira Lightman Hi Rae I don't know about this Powerful or Famous poet thing either. I do know that I'm a male who's been affected by exercises of power and that this enters my writing and my person. Power often prefers small spaces, and I think a poet can use it as brutally as anyone. More, because we/he/she/they claim licence. Poetry wants no a priori accountability. So often Poetry seems to want to align itself with the good. Aesthetics as a story of high moral endeavour. The moral claim of poetry seems to me another power ploy/play. Aberrations like fame are a spin-off. That said, I wouldn't want someone's fame rubbed off on me. John Geraets frank@dpc.aichi-gakuin.ac.jp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 18:27:42 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland Subject: Re: Power X-To: selby@SLIP.NET Dear Selby, Nothing changed. Wystan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 15:29:10 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland Subject: Re: Desire X-To: gpsj@PRIMENET.COM Dear Gary, What appalling parties you have in St. Paul! I know, and Ira's told you how totally corrupt it all is out here in NZ, but to be utterly frank with you I have never witnessed anything remotely like what you describe.I. Is it something to do with the provinces? I guess you get a steady stream of scumbaggers from the big cities, do you? We get hardly any 'cos we're so remote. Lyn Hejinian, who's in her 50s and pretty famous as far as we're concerned, has just been here; she certainly kept her hands to herself, and everyone did adore her. Maybe its different in Wellington--Ira can tell you. We used to have pub readings in Auckland but since sometime in the 80s when clubs and cafes took over they lost what cool they had.It's so important to set the right ambiance for readings, don't you think? People are more likely to behave properly then. I launched my last book in a dealer gallery, got someone in to do the flowers and had the food catered. Get away from that Boho atmosphere you know? Wystan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 06:08:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Parties in Minnesota Gary, What I don't get is the point of identifying your out-of-control poet by an aesthetic? Over the years, I've seen this sort of behavior from virtually every tendency within the New American Poetry and its heirs and my friends who studied with Richard Hugo tell me life is no prettier out in that pasture neither. Rae is right about poets and power, but often younger writers project a kind of power on their elders. Look at how worshipful the hangers on at the Factory were towards Warhol. Did Gerard Malanga acquire power? Look at the sainthood that Coolidge projects onto Kerouac in his big review in VLS. At the Berkeley Poetry Conference in 1965, the young (teenagers and just past) gay poets I knew worked hard to try and bag a Ginsberg for their trophy wall. From a distance, star fucking always looks pathetic. And when it gets turned around (the older more "famous" or "powerful" chasing after the younger more vulnerable) it looks even worse. When a beat generation novelist puts a gun to the head of a young grad student in order to get some gratification--this does seem to have happened--or if people have their clothes ripped off by the Vajra guard, then it seems just fine to me if the cops get brought in. Ginsberg's mistake, I think, isn't in hitting on 16 year olds, but rather in serving as a cover for a group that acts as if power is not an issue and it's okay to do the same with 8 year olds. Ron ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 10:08:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Parties in Minnesota this issue of fame/power and such butts right up against the sex. harassment controversies continuing to reverb. through academe and institutional settings in general... there are times, as ron indicates, when the cops should be brought in... there are times when appeals should be made to rules explicitly designated for such abuses... and there is also a more diffuse, equally problematic and less generally acknowledged eros attendant to such---shall we say?---transactions... in the most recent *utne reader*---with the cover story (worth catching too) "cyberhood vs. neighborhood"---there's an excerpt on p. 37 with the byline "in praise of student/teacher romances: notes on the subversive power of passion"... it's by bell hooks (excerpted from *shambhala sun*)... while i have local reservations, as i typically do with hooks' stuff, i nevertheless found assertions such as the following provocative, and perhaps pertinent to opening up *this* discussion some: "Throughout my years as a student, I was always mindful of the way in which devotion to a teacher within a learning community, whether in a classroom setting or in a religious context, can arouse erotic longings. Passionate pedagogy in any context is likely to spark erotic feeling. I have known such feeling as a student and experienced it as a teacher." hooks goes on to admit to sexual relations with "older male professors," and with a student re which "the unequal power relations between us were a source of tension and conflict we did not resolve"... joe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 16:53:43 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: back to back poetry X-To: LS0796%ALBNYVMS.bitnet@vm1.spcs.umn.edu Hi Chris, the issues around validation of 'taste' and canon formation re power and abuse of power are fascinating. Alan Golding (on this list) has written some on Lang-po and canon formation, work that I'd strongly recommend. Claiming authority on the basis of occupying 'high ground(s)'(the proliferating and necessary but frequently divisive politics of identities) when perniciously reified from 'other' fields or imposed across art forms (in this country there was a very public debate about whether Dylan or Keats were the more 'serious' poet, opened up and jettisoned into the arena by a 'highbrow' playwright prominent in 'the National Theatre' - thus setting the 'high' 'low' cultural ideologies into play) is often used to demean and deny new work. Controlling an agenda by controlling the spheres and terms of reference is an old ploy - one of the most effective. A limited mapping of territories for discourse can be seen as either 'focussed' or 'blinkered', dependent on your points of view. In humane interactions one of the most dangerous of all tendencies is to enforce a belief that something once explored and seemingly comprehensively dismissed is therefore consigned off limits as being for all time past its sell by date. Having said which the work of others past and present is of course there to be learned from - and challenged. 'Fight the Power' love cris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 17:14:49 WET Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "I.LIGHTMAN" Subject: Re: Parties in Minnesota Ron, I absolutely agree with you that Ginsberg's support of the North American Man Boy Love Association is very nasty. But I don't why the hell everyone is trying to redefine who the 16 and 18 year olds are, and never once accept that there *are* young men, as young women, who may be very promising poets and also in their personal life very vulnerable and isolated - not only because being interested in difficult poetry does isolate and alienate you, but also because there may be personal factors. Anybody remotely queer (and I include people who sleep with the opposite gender) is likely to get a lot of routine verbal abuse, and feel the presence of hatred for all same-sex behaviour and/or effeminacy (I certainly don't equate the two), which frankly fucks your confidence and affects your self-worth sexually, which is exactly what a lecher can take advantage of. And, to take up further the Nambla link with Ginsberg, anyone who has been molested in any way as a child is similarly very vulnerable to being leched by someone offering sex in the name of love. This isn't just an issue for poets' power, it's an issue for anyone's power, so by all means I'll agree that poets don't have power in the sense of *superpower* like Spiderman or Catwoman, but they do have power that anyone has over someone vulnerable - and thanks to Nambla, Ginsberg or any of us has 3 groups likely to attend poetry readings who are vulnerable, as I've described. It remains, Ron, an issue connected with avant-garde poetics and not just all poets, not because it's isn't common to all poets, but because the degree of isolation I'm describing in one of my groups is greater the more difficult and avant-garde the poet is himself/herself or is the group he/she sells himself/herself on. I could find many devoted Thom Gunn fans to talk over my passion with, only a handful of Ron Silliman fans, or Carla Harryman fans. I just think of how Ezra Pound always shared out any prize money he got with younger poets, and think that's how you do it if you believe in art. Ira ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 17:18:00 WET Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "I.LIGHTMAN" Subject: desire : renaissance Woe. Awe. Many hold themselves. Too sexual straits. I looked through your human eyes and those balls. You many who tense, woe, many hear but head for Garth like Kim Basinger and Wayne like Tina Carrera and Tilda Swinton like Derek Jarman and Ludwig Wittgenstein like Bertrand Russell and Camille Paglia like Susie Bright. And Garth for Kim Basinger for Wayne for Tina Carrera for Tilda Swinton for Derek Jarman for Wittgenstein for Bertrand Russell for Camille Paglia for Susie Birght for? Who wants to be seen does not seem to want the scene who's seen whose seam is a small fleshly whorl in the belly as it lifts and filters over the knees of the driver in a car of sexuality outwards to the straits coasting round the continual frontier that brakes freedom or makes freedom or defines freedom or confines freedom as the lovingly made meal washes round making the body freshly worn like hair changing entered in diaries. Come on in to the reasonable adult life more sell daily than any other brand of stake in the non-money marketing stinging the mark for a reconnaissance or a re-cheat-birth as the mark exchanges sterling in the face of thumping and determined in the face of dolour as an innocent is a broad and happy village where even a biplane is a floating cartoon sandwich over enemy lines armed with dildos sputtering silicon melon pips after the sumptuous mouth waters down. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 12:18:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rae Armantrout Subject: Re: Desire, Ira Lightman Well, I know it's a complex issue. I just wanted to point out that the level of power this mysterious Old poet has is not a very great one. In fact, it's mostly in the mind of the beholder. What negative consequences is he really holding over the head of the mystery Young lady?. I hope I don't get confused with Camille Paglia here, but I'm just saying that the less famous person has some responsibility here too. If she/he really lets some creep paw her for hours in public just because she thinks he's somehow eminent, then what does that say about her? The young woman in Gary's post was portrayed in oddly Victorian terms, almost as a damsel in need of rescue. She is portrayed as essentially powerless. I guess I found that troubling. Enough said? Rae Armantrout ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 09:17:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Transcendent Desire & Stevens In-Reply-To: <9504050613.AA00774@isc.sjsu.edu> David Bromige, author of _Desire_, writes in _Harbormaster of Hong Kong_: not every trembling hand can make us squeak ___________________________________________ my god wallace your breasts are like mice Johnny Rotten once said, "Sex is boring," but I guess he must have meant "theory" -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 11:20:54 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: eric pape Subject: Re: Desire In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 4 Apr 1995 22:19:21 -0700 from There is no normative sexuality is there? There is not two sexes, or four sexes or six sexes but at the least a sex for every act imaginable and at most a sex for every sex thought thought in every sexed body? And doesn't this relate to poetry (funny how folks got a sexuality and a literature around the same historical moment or maybe not so considering hist. rise of the bourg.) in that there is no normative poetry? No normative for reading/writing/sexing poetry? And if it is true as I think is clear that poetry is in some sense always already a seduction, then may it follow that poetry being a consensual sexual event between multiple readers/writers across the body of a sexed text is as much about sexpower as any sexual event (and in this way I try to braid the various threads of recent posts)? Therefore everything goes, in sex and poetry, except of course that everything cannot go because everything comes from a context of powersex relations. Our sexed bodies, whether textual or tactile, in some sense imaginative constructions/fictions, but isn't this where the fun comes in? All of us drag queens, butches,femmes, acting out a fantasy of historically determined sex and finally I think this where sexpoetry can go from here which is to penetrate/be penetrated into/by the fictions of our sex? Woops, am I talking about narrative? Thanks, Eric. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 14:03:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Re: Desire, responsibility, etc. Kevin, Ed, & others, I really regret my agist remark, feel awful having made it. A very stupid, cruel and thoughtless thing to have said. I take full responsibility for it, apologize, and hope you can forgive me. It doesn't, of course, matter how old someone is if s/he's harassing someone else. I was overreacting to something George had said re Ginsberg: "Do you expect him to hit on other older poets?" That made me very angry, and I didn't think well enough through my response. I was speaking of instances where someone had said--repeatedly--"no"--& where that "no" was not taken seriously. Ed, I'd hope you'd know me well enough to know I'm not an advocate of either censorship or repression. I feel terrible not only that my post was agist, but that it seems to have lead you to believe I *am* advocating these things. Wystan, Ron, how did you manage to transpose St. Paul, Minnesota for Tucson, Arizona? The woman who related the events that occurred in Tucson is now in St. Paul, but the events, again, took place in Tucson. Ron, this all originally came up in a discussion about Ginsberg, & in that discussion I thought I made clear the relationship between aesthetics/behavior in that instance. You're right, though, to point out that harassment itself has nothing to do with aesthetics; I do think, at least in Ginsberg's case, his aesthetics get used by others when "apologizing" for some of his behavior. I don't "get" Rae's post, Ron, or your reading of it. I don't follow how you can say that Rae is "right about poets and power" (she seems to be denying they have any--am I misreading that?) and then, "Ginsberg's mistake [is] in serving as a cover for a group that acts as if power is not an issue..." Could you clarify this apparent contradiction? Rae, everyone--including poets--has power. It hardly matters whether or not they seek it out or even want it. My wife Marta, when she was sixteen, told her mother that her (Marta's) stepfather had been sexually abusing her--this was while Marta & her mother were in the car, and her mother's response to this, either not wanting to believe that her second husband was capable of doing that or not wanting to deal with the responsibility of that knowledge, ordered Marta out of the car. They were somewhere in the middle of Stockton. Marta got out, has been home only once--with me, many years later & while her stepfather was away on business--since. I think Marta's mother was in a position of (admittedly unasked-for) power, and--through denial--misused it. There's nothing wrong with power. It's the abuse or misuse of it (& denial of power can easily lead to abuse or misuse) that Ira and I are talking about. This relates to the "responsibility" dialogue. Ed, I'm surprised that you think so poorly of the word, considering that you seem like one of the most responsible editors in the U.S. Like Kevin & Dodie's _Mirage_, your _Talisman_ is one of few magazines that feels, to me, like the product of "responsible" editing. Not simply that it comes out regularly, but that it doesn't feel--in comparison to _Sulfur_ or _Conjunctions_--like a closed, "tenure-based," arena. _Talisman_ and _Mirage_ are two places where I'm always delighted to find work, & a lot of it, by people I'd never heard of before. (_Mirage_ provided me with the first opportunity to read Ira Lightman's work--though some was also printed in _lyric&_, another personal fave.) I may well be projecting or otherwise misreading by seeing that as "responsible" editing, and my notion of "responsibility" might be silly, reductive and/or irrelevant--and if so, please don't hesitate to tell me, & to do that en length. While I appreciate Colleen's enthusiasm for the economy of epigram, I usually get more--here, anyway--out of somewhat lengthier, detailed statements/arguments/points of view. Finally, I'm constantly surprised reading responses to posts that take statements made out of what seem to me to be genuine concern or a particular way of thinking, feeling or "being," and flatten them to "strategy." Am I naive in believing that a good portion of the posts I've read (in the 2 months I've been reading them) might actually be representative of how people think, or feel? If they're not, or if someone feels they're nothing more than canon- or tenure- or cred-pitching, it's beyond me why anyone who felt that way would waste their time reading them. Yours, Gary ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 16:40:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: FUNKHOUSER CHRISTOPH Subject: CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS (New E-Journal) Sender: Discussion of Contemporary American Poetry > From: CAP-L > Subject: CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS (New E-Journal) (fwd) > Comments: To: CAP-L@VM1.spcs.umn.edu > To: Multiple recipients of list CAP-L > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 10:12:19 -0500 (CDT) > From: Tommy S Kim > To: englgrad@maroon.tc.umn.edu > Subject: CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS (New E-Journal) (fwd) > > > i thought some of you in the mFA program might be interested in this so... > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Sun, 02 Apr 1995 20:34:48 -0500 (CDT) > From: Matthew David Franz > To: POPCULT@Camosun.BC.CA > Subject: CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS (New E-Journal) > > > > ******************* CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS ********************* > > (Apologies in advance for multiple/cross-posts) > > GRUENE STREET: An Internet journal of poetry and prose invites submissions > of prose (750-3000 words) and poetry (under 60 lines) for its premiere > issue to appear late Summer/early Fall 1995. The editors of GRUENE STREET > seek to provide an outlet for high-quality prose and poetry that merits a > sophisticated on-line audience, hoping to publish writing that at least > *aspires* to the quality of work that appears in mainstrem literary > journals such as _Kansas Quarterly_, _Cimmaron Review_, etc.--providing > an alternative to the 'zines and zine-like publications currently found > on the net. GRUENE STREET accepts multiple and simultaneous submissions as > well as previously-published work. > > *** Submission Guidelines in Brief *** > FICTION no obvious genre-fiction (sci-fi, fantasy, romance, etc.) excerpted > novels OK. > > POETRY vivid, sharp, memorable, but with something to say. No *gratuitous* > erotica or violence. > > ESSAYS various subjects that might be of interest to a general/academic > audience including education (such as critical pedagogy), literary > and cultural criticism, non-sectarian politics, etc.** > > ** we have a particular interest in publishing well-written essays > (including analytical book reviews) and anticipate receiving far more > fiction/poetry than non-fiction--so if in doubt, give us a try. > > SUBMIT manuscripts via e-mail to editors at in > ASCII text or HTML format. If your work is already somewhere on the WWW > (such as your home page) send your URL. For more detailed info contact > the editors at AFF@TENET.EDU or check out our home page on the World Wide Web. > > > +---------------------------------------------------------------+ > | Gruene Street: an Internet journal of poetry and prose | > +---------------------------------------------------------------+ > | SEND SUBMSSIONS to AFF@TENET.EDU. For more information | > | contact the editors at email: AFF@TENET.EDU or our WWW site | > | http://www-bprc.mps.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/hpp/gruene.html | > +---------------------------------------------------------------+ > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 15:27:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Re: Desire, Ira Lightman In-Reply-To: <199504052006.NAA00748@mailhost.primenet.com> Dear Rae: A longer post about this is bouncing around in e-space, will probably show up after this one. Wanted to address your "Victorian." Yes, the young woman had responsibility. Unfortunately, in this situation, she had at least two competing responsibilities. She was the person in charge of reading-coordinations. She was new to the job. It was her responsibility to make arrangements for the readers, and also, simply, to "be there," for the reading, & so on. She was not powerless, but her newness to the situation, her wanting to "do a good job" probably played somewhat into her "allowing" (assuming saying no, but not leaving her job-post, is "allowing") what transpired to transpire. She had a number of things going against her: Newness to the job, youth (i.e., less "life-experience" than someone older would've had), and a non-supportive environment. There's a reason why more rapes or acts of sexual harassment don't get reported than do. Another issue you're not considering is shame, that the victim of sexual abuse of any kind often -- despite whatever the events -- tend to blame themselves and/or experience an enormous amount of shame. More people that I know *have* been sexually abused, harassed and/or raped than not -- and in all of these instances the person on the receiving end is in conflict w/respect to their own "participation." It's a very complex issue, and not fully understood by "it takes two to tango"-type dismissals. Yours, Gary ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 14:16:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Joron Subject: sexual harassment I'm surprised by the backlash against Gary Sullivan's condemnation of sexual harassment. A "liberal" attitude toward the problem can only serve to reinforce the inequities of the status quo, it seems to me. Dear Ed Foster, would you defend Clarence Thomas by saying that Anita Hill "wasn't exactly in nursery school"? Rae Armantrout's question on whether poets really have any power strikes me as a bit disingenuous. If someone is a poet, is that person therefore incapable of sexually oppressing others? How can anyone deny that academic & literary settings are rife with status and power games, including sexual ones? It may be "un-cosmopolitan" to denounce that situation, but the first task of activism is to vanquish cynicism. -- Andrew Joron ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 17:41:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: poeticslist and Desire cris, re: private and public. in poetry, the private is public, completely. the rest is business, right? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 09:34:29 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Power & Fame (longish) The following is a letter I wrote on Tuesday at home. I have tried unsuccessfully to get it out as an attachment to a post. It is a reply, in part, to a back channel post from John Geraets. I'd like to share it with the net, though. [I should add the following annotations: James Baxter, NZ poet, collected by Oxford U.P., Colin, is his friend Colin McCahon, NZ painter, who painted series of paintings of the Statins of the Cross as a memorial for Baxter in 1973; Stefan is my son, 11 years old, approaching 12, Sean Hoppe is a rugby league player, a fine winger, playing for the Auckland Warriors.] A LETTER ON THE NET FOR JOHN GERAETS Dear John, Do you regard me as a rival or as a collaborator? You are much mor likely to end up as a boxed set of CDROM-multimedia poetry than I am. I lack the will. My effort is elsewise but would like to find common ground. The electronic forum gets to be really interesting when it is used for intimate correspondence, done in a public space. The questions you ask me had me feeling like an ikon for an uncomfortable while. I decided I didn't want to be *groovy*. The public status too easily forces a simplification that is traductive rather than reductive. {traduire/ trahir} Translation is always a betrayal as it lays one idiom over another, stifling the one beneath. It can breathe life into a corpse. Also. But what I wanted to say was: I've always wanted to do something famous, be in the Encyclopaedia of World Fame. (It will be mine! as Wayne says in Wayne's World -- a White Stratocaster.) I'm really taken with Baxter's "Jerusalem Sonnets" 39 poems (Steps, Steppes) dedicated to Colin. Thinking how dear old Colin returned the compliment. Poetry is a good genre for stating that which one would like to be permanent, memorable, marmoreal (rather than hyperreal -- here today gone tomorrow --). This is the consequential chain of thought regarding being an ikon. I want to be an ikon in another category, maybe superstar, maybe saint, very unlikely. How abt poet? Hmm, good one, nice call...but that's not what I reckon I do best. What I do reckon on is to do with pictures, and on that one I feel like he who cracked the genetic code or something Nobel. My mother would be glad, though would have no idea what it was all about, and would continue to regard me as a nice enough person, but one who had not at all succeeded as intended. But I don't reckon being an ikon would be really any good for what I am doing. It would be a serious distraction to have press at the door. I observe Rugby League squeezed dry for its investment potential by TV Moguls. All the money at the top drains it away from the amusement seekers who like to play football at weekends {Just for the kicks}. Eventually the pool of talent empties. It is just like the use of Natural Resources. Whatever happened to Golden Roughies after= |||||Sean Hoppe lives up the top of the drive, just moved in, with an SZ numberplate red Celica. Stefan took him a number of articles of clothing for him to autograph last night, even tho the Warriors have lost four in a row. They'll probably end up in Murdoch's Super League.|||| its feeding ground was discovered? Here Local Body politicians are taking over the management of the Auckland Institute's Museum, by Act of Parliament, removing the scientists and scholars of the Institute from control, and therefore effectively putting freedom of speech on issues such as race relations of said scholars and scientists under direct political supervision. {{Did something like that happen at the Bishop Museum, Hawaii?}} New Vice-Chancellor Carson, in Auckland's University is talking about precisely the same issue when he sees the Government preparing to change the composition of the governing Council of the University so that the majority would be government appointees. Academic friends who think I am just paranoid may well find themselves wishing they had acted sooner. The present initiative recognises that money will talk loudest in the end and that the University like the Museum could be forced to agree because Government holds the purse-strings..... [There is some more but that's enough already....] Love, Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 18:03:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Desire friend got me reading remy de gourmont again, esp. because of this poetry chat line disc. of desire. remy de gourmont's a beautiful writer but was horribly disfigured and the beauty (among the most sexually true you'll find) is all in the words. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 18:15:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Desire, responsibility, etc. gary: hmmmm. however t. is/is not edited, i don't much like "irresponsible" friends (doing horrible things like not washing their dishes) but in friends--as in poetry and poets--one would much prefer desire to responsibility, no? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 18:17:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: poeticslist and Desire wouldn't it be interesting if congress, cleansing cyberspace, should turn to this poetry chat line for ammunition? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 19:34:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Scheil Subject: Re: Native Americans Blair Seagram wrote: But in a way, I resent the fact that many people today are being held responsible for a charter that was made two hundred years ago between the government of Canada and the Indians. And part of the reason I resent it is because I see people who have owned a piece of land for three or four generations, now under attack by any one who has an ounce of Indian blood in them, claiming that the land is theirs. How does one begin to right all the wrongs? How do you turn back time? I know this is slightly off the topic, and I only lay myself open to criticism. But as I glibly acknowlegde the validity of other cultures in a totally different mind set, I am acutely aware of the difficulty of settling the differences that are result of western civilization and its desire to conquer. In response to this, a quote from Guy Davenport: "But of course, this is not so. The Indians are probably more numerous now than at the time of Columbus's discovery. They are a vigorous people. After four hundred years of stubborn refusal to accept the gift of Europe, which we have by now corrupted out of all resemblance to anything like a civilization, they should be brought to the council tables with all the old treaties in their hands. The idea that time cannot be reversed is mere Enlightenment dogma, liberal twaddle. And the sovereignity of the State is a totalitarian idea useful only to collect taxes. Let the Indian nations exist again within our borders." Davenport is right, particularily about the myth of irreversible time; We (meaning us children of Old Europa) trot out this facile little truism whenever faced with rectifying some particularily painful historical error (painful to us, that is). We enslave one race, try to massacre another, and when that doesn't work, we desperately try to subsume their cultural identities in whatever fictive set of social norms we've fabricated for ourselves. When that turns out to be unsuccessful, we comfort ourselves (and throw off that strange Eurocentric feeling: historical guilt) by throwing up our hands and saying: "so sorry for your pain, but that was on our ancestors'(read: backwards, unsophisticated, and therefore innocent of malice) heads, not ours." Which is, of course, bullshit. Where it not so, I doubt that such historical actions as the creation of Israel, Zimbabwe, the reformation of a Sovereign Ukraine, Latvia, and Lithuania would (or should) ever had occured. Truth is, we took Native American land, killed off as many as we could, then threw the rest on whatever spare acreage we didn't have a use for (at least until such time as we needed the oil or uranium deposits). Which brings me to point two: why does a farm family have more of a right to a certain piece of land than a Native American tribe? Answer: because they are European and because the dominant culture claims to operate under European customs and laws. A farmer owns his land precisely because the State says he owns it. The whole argument you posit concerning the relative rights to the land is based on this Eurocentric fallacy, and by expressing ambivalence towards the processes that led to the current situation even while tacitly accepting that situation, you end up coming down on the European side. Which to my mind, makes whatever ambivalence one might feel somewhat facile and ultimately self-serving. Sorry if this post is somewhat strident (no personal offense is intended), but this is a subject about which I feel particularily strongly, and which all too often lends itself to a type of liberal hand-wringing do-nothingness that I find particularily offensive. Chris Scheil ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 23:53:31 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: desire Curious. I'm on 3 lists that all switched subject almost eerily in sync. This list went 'desire' as CAP-L (which I must admit bores the whole out of me but for some masochistic reason my subscription hangs on in there) lead with 'beauty and politics' and ht-lit swerved into 'digital salivation'. Transcendence or co-incidence? To finish off my little session I can't believe I just sent someone a message in which the appalling phrase (written in all innocence - I think) 'because my disc went down on me' loomed out of context from the rhythm-of-the-sea-blue screen. cris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 22:32:59 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: Re: Power & Fame (longish) >The following is a letter I wrote on Tuesday at home. I have tried >unsuccessfully to get it out as an attachment to a post. It is a >reply, in part, to a back channel post from John Geraets. I'd like >to share it with the net, though. >[I should add the following annotations: James Baxter, NZ poet, > collected by Oxford U.P., Colin, is his friend Colin McCahon, NZ painter, > who painted series of paintings of the Statins of the Cross as a memorial > for Baxter in 1973; Stefan is my son, 11 years old, approaching 12, Sean >Hoppe is a rugby league player, a fine winger, playing for the Auckland >Warriors.] > Has Sean Hoppe signed with the Murdoch Super League? Mark Roberts Australian Writing OnLine ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 22:21:45 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jed Subject: Re: Julius Hemphill In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 3 Apr 1995 22:30:23 -0700 from Thanks to Aldon Nielson for the news of Julius Hemphill's passing. I'd feared as much, given that his last recording ("Five Chord Stud" on Black Saint) featu red "The Julius Hemphill Sextet" without JH himself playing, though as conducto r/composer his presence was indelible as ever. He was playing on the sextet's previous "Fat Man and the Hard Blues." He seems to have had a special knack for reaching inside other people's playing. Uncanny. I caught the World Saxophone Quartet many times over the years and, while he clearly didn't have the energy toward the end, he still somehow summoned everything around him, like Stevens' jar in Tennessee. Aldon, is "Dogon A.D." available on cd? It was a cutout on lp for many years, & probably still possible to skim up in vinyl bins. It's got a dirtgrit undertone to it that most jazz producers shy away from, as does its companion album, "Coon Bidness." Pieces from both these discs were done in an inspired concert at Willisau in '84 by Hemphill's "JAH band"--issued as "Georgi a Blue" (Minor Music). The LA poet K. Curtis Lyle's poem "Drunk on God" is feat ured on Hemphill's only large ensemble recording, "Julius Hemphill Big Band" (Elektra) & well worth scouting down. There are another half dozen of his, but I should mention the stunning homage by Tim Berne that came out last year: "Diminutive Mysteries" (JMT), featuring compositions written by JH for the project, along with a 21 minute Dedalian twist by Berne that will pry your ears all the way back to the fur. --Jed Rasula ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 01:48:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: braman sandra Subject: Re: desire In-Reply-To: <199504060624.AA13186@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> from "cris cheek" at Apr 5, 95 11:53:31 pm Cris Creek -- The consonance among different lists you mention is fascinating. Can you unpack what the other two lists are for us? Sandra Braman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 14:00:41 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland Subject: Re: Desire, responsibility, etc. X-To: gpsj@PRIMENET.COM Dear Gary, I am sorry I confused St Paul and Tucson, lack of close reading on my part. You can tell me if they are very different--one's a colder place than the otherI guess and I'm sure they both in songs, but in different songs? I forgive you for your agism, you'll be glad to know I was not deeply wounded by it. What did interest me about your post, and here I will be a bit personal when it is precisely the personal in all this which is a worry, what did interest me is that having begged forgiveness for your sins you wanted then to end your post with what I took to be an accusation of a sort. It was as though you were balancing the books in some fashion. There you make this contrast, and it is a heavy moral one, between expressions of heartfelt concerns and flattening comments reducing such expressions to those of "strategy". What I want to ask is this: wasn't the shift you effected in the discussion of Ginsberg's aesthetics to the personal and thence to the moral the deploying of a strategy, and was it not reductive of the issues, ie. flattening? I don't mind that the discussion changed direction--sidetracking keeps the net active.I also consider the person-to-person character of much posting on the net is one of its pluses. But that isn't to say I have to accept, let alone applaud, its claims to transparence. Best wishes, Wystan. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 16:24:31 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: desire Where will this talk of desire and of sex lead? Will it be to theophanism and Ibn 'Arabi....again? [There's an Olsonian theme]. See Henry Corbin's "Creative Imagination in the Sufism of Ibn 'Arabi" trans. R.Manheim (Bollingen Series XCI)Princeton, 1969 and "Avicenna and the Visionary Recital. trans Willard R.Trask, Pantheon Books,NYC.1960. New edition 1980 Spring Publications ltd, University of Dallas, Texas. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 02:01:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Spencer Selby Subject: Re: Power In-Reply-To: <199504051041.DAA27044@> Dear Wystan, Nothing changed because no one did what I asked. Seriously, I agree with Ira, Gary and Andrew--to say that poets can't/don't have power is ridiculous. As Ira preceptively points out, the problem of poets' power is greater in the avant garde world because that world is smaller and sort of isolated. In a situation where poets are, for the most part, their own audience, critics and publishers, having some stature, clout or influence can be a pretty big deal. Most poets behave as if they're only too aware of this, whether they admit it or not. On Wed, 5 Apr 1995, Wystan Curnow wrote: > Dear Selby, > Nothing changed. > Wystan > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 05:48:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Power I've been surprised at how reified and mystified the term *power* seems to be in these discussions. There are of course all kinds of power, an infinite variety of shadings and nuances. To collapse them into a does/does not binary system seems not of great value. Most of the power that poets have (and this may be true of large portions of what old Althusser used to call ideological state appartatuses) seems specifically conferred by readers and other writers. Almost a "consent of the governed." I doubt that there can be many/any of us on this list who have not seen the underbelly of power at its most horrific at one point or other, and who have not sworn to ourselves in private (and often enough to others in public) not to allow that to happen (to us or others) and never if possible to be the origin of such abuse. Having been raised by a psychotic who chased me around the house with knives, I can sympathize with Marta and do. But it doesn't simplify the state of the world much to know that. When Gary extends the argument to rope in Sulfur & Conjunctions as tenure driven academic mags, I get lost. Whatever their faults (and each mag is radically different), neither gives a hoot about that system of academic power. What we get is not a critique so much as resentment over imagined exclusion. (Althusser himself being a pretty good example of how power shoud not be used....) Ron ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 18:24:36 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: poeticslist and Desire X-To: Edward Foster where garden and gateway and common and street, respectively sample overhung balconies, pierced lattices, recessed arches, worn steps - working in a non-linear fashion in a non-linear world I like what Tony Green said ' the electronic forum gets to be really interesting when it is used for intimate correspondence, done in a public space.' My gut agrees when you say 'in poetry, the private is public, completely' Ed. But something else that wants to qualify is nagging. I'd go for an embracing 'and between' position - that poetry negotiates the public and private at all stages of its processes of 'production' and 'consumption'. The interpenetration of consciousnesses. Yuk - so much prevaricating intellectual goo flown here. But something in that. As to 'the rest is business, right?'. I'd say that trade forms part of that negotiation. But I'm not convinced that's what you meant. cris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 11:24:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lindz Williamson Subject: SEX!, just to get your attention. In-Reply-To: <199504051912.MAA17796@unixg.ubc.ca> Eric wrote " Therefore everything goes, in sex and poetry, except of course that everything cannot go because everything comes from a context of powersex relations. Our sexed bodies, whether textual or tactile, in some sense imaginative constructions/fictions, but isn't this where the fun comes in? All of us drag queens, butches,femmes, acting out a fantasy of historically determined sex and finally I think this where sexpoetry can go from here which is to penetrate/be penetrated into/by the fictions of our sex? Woops, am I talking about narrative?" Combining textual and tactile elements in poetry or sex poetry is an interesting fusion of sense and emotion, (sense in the logical and physical realm). I started thinking about what Ryan had said about writing into and away from the langauge, then combining it with writing into and away from my sex and my desires. I've been readiing Ovid and I like the way he made love poetry his full time job. he did not deal strictly with his emotional reaction to his love of the moment but infused cultural and social implications into his poetry and the relationship. He used a narrative voice but it lacks the pathetic dribble of "Why so pale and wan fond lover" in the narrative. He is erotic and sensual and yet there is some form of objectivity in his subject matter. However his objectivity may come from the basis that he was not monogamous. Lindz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 14:41:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: prevaricating intellectual goo (sex power...) I'm kinda suprised this conversation has not turned to LAcanian terms about the difference between genders (if not sexes) and men using the dreaded signifying phallus anf masculine symbolic as crutches to make up for their womb envy or something...but then we open the whole "can of worms" os sexism/feminism, don't we.... Cs ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 15:55:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Consent of the governing Ron, I guess I didn't explain myself well enough. I put quotes around the word "tenure" w/respect to _Sulfur_ and _Conjunctions_, hoping that would encourage a looser reading of that word. I'm not talking about academic tenure. I'm talking about "poetry world" tenure--admittedly more tenuous than academic tenure, though both are based on seniority and/or politics. I know a number of people in academia, and though they are all very different people, ranging from their 20s to their 50s, some with tenure, some at the graduate student level, all of them complain of, or at the very least freely acknowledge, academic politics, the role it plays with respect to receiving (official) tenure or not, the role it plays simply in terms of whether or not you get a job in the first place. People in offices I've worked freely admit, whatever their situation (manager or data-entry person), "office politics." Same for every restaurant, retail, book-review, stand-up comedy gig I've had. (I've had more than 20 different jobs in my lifetime, and only a handful of those weren't gotten because I was a friend of someone who already worked there. In most other cases, I was hired on after having worked through a temp agency.) The only place in my limited experience where terms like "politics," "tenure," "seniority," "favor-exchanging," & so on are denied is in the poetry world. We'd like to think we're "above" all that. I don't think we are. We're human beings, after all. There is such a thing as literary politics, as well as literary "tenure." You, Ron, I consider tenured. You may be uncomfortable with that, may feel it's "all in the mind," but I think it does have consequences--good ones--for you, & for others associated w/you. You write a book, it gets published. A publisher (Drogue) who is denied access to SPD gains access after accepting your work for publication. (I happened to tell someone, several months ago, at SPD that Drogue was publishing _(R)_, to which said person at SPD said, "Oh, we'd rejected them before; but, now that they're publishing Silliman, we'll have to sign them up.") You submit to _Sulfur_, the work will at the very least get read. Please, please don't try to kid me or anyone else into believing my work (or theirs, assuming they don't have a book or two out) is going to even be *read* by _Sulfur_ or _Conjunctions_ editors when we both know very well it probably isn't--at least, not unless it gets submitted by someone with "pull," or "tenure." They're *very* exclusionary magazines, at least compared to journals like _Mirage_ and _Talisman_. Ed Foster, what you say about "desire" and "responsibility" I find very agreeable. Ron, I think Ed and Kevin & Dodie publish work out of a sense of "desire"--they genuinely *like* that work; I think Eshleman and Morrow publish based on seniority & politics, first, everything else, second. I don't resent at all that _Sulfur_ and _Conjunctions_ wouldn't, if I bothered to submit work, read it; I feel as ambivalent toward them as you do to coverage or not in the _Times_. I've never submitted to them because I'm simply not thrilled with a lot of the work they publish. Neither do I resent your tenure, Ron; I'm happy for you that your work gets consistently published in book form; I'm happy for myself, too, because otherwise I'd have to pester you (as I do with a lot of people) to send me your work in manuscript. But, really, Ron: "Consent of the governed"? Consent of the governing is what matters. If it were really up to us governeds, our books would be published, & once published, carried by SPD, and once carried by SPD, reviewed in magazines, etc. When looking around at all the books in print, names in big magazines, etc., in 1972, did you feel you & your collegues had any say in that? Your wonderful piece, "The Soft Hello" in _Salt Lick_ from that year, I have the sense you were very dissatisfied with what you saw. Was that resentment of imagined exclusion? I don't get that sense at all, Ron. I think you cared, very much, about these issues. If I'm putting words in your mouth, misreading you, let me know. Even your "New Hope for the Disappeared," written some 20 years later, has you addressing--less emphatically, but no less convincingly--these very same issues. Yours, Gary ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 09:16:23 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Power & Fame (longish) It looks like the Warriors will go with Murdoch and I suppose that means the lot of them. All the four injured Warriors are fit to play tonight against Manly (inc Hoppe,neck, -- Bell with a broken thumb, Kearney with a back problem, who's the 4th?). It will be wet! I wdn't want to predict a score. We'll be camped round the TV. Season tickets for the Warriors go for a mere $150 NZ., as advertised by Andy Platt and Dean Bell last night. What I say is, poetry in motion. Cheers. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 16:49:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carl Lynden Peters Subject: CHARLES WATTS thurs., april 6 '95 dear charles, george came into my office (which is really the grad lounge, but it has a coffee machine) and told me that i should try & reach you regarding the blazer conference here this summer, and i want to let you know i'd be willing to help you out in any way re organizing or whatever work you have for me. i'm off to calgary in the morning for the bpNichol conference and wont be back till the 10th. --i'll come by the special collections next week to see you about this take care, carl ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 17:40:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: poeticslist and Desire In-Reply-To: <199504062301.QAA06022@whistler.sfu.ca> from "cris cheek" at Apr 6, 95 06:24:36 pm Regarding public and private schtuff, I think I agree with Stein: the private is private and the public is public. I've got a Yeats mask on too. Ryan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 18:58:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Spencer Selby Subject: Re: Power In-Reply-To: <199504061453.HAA02882@> ---Of course there are different kinds of power. However, a lot of the difference has to do with degrees and stakes, not different meanings of the term. ---My wife and I have had this running conversation for quite some time, where we compare my experience in the literary world to hers in the corporate financial world. An ongoing theme of our dialogue is the similarity of power-seeking and power-protecting behaviors in these two very different realms. ---The other side of "resentment over exclusion" is "appreciation based on support." It's always the other guy whose judgment is selfish, overly subjective or flawed. ---"Consent of the governed" in this discussion sounds to me like the kind of reasoning that is used by lawyers to defend date rapists. On the other hand, I can see what Ron is saying in a more general sense. I see all the time how poets encourage and flatter the egos of those they admire or look up to. Quite often this kind of consent is actually one of the classic power-seeking (and sometimes protecting) behaviors, known in the vernacular as butt-kissing. It would be great if this behavior never paid off, but such is not the case, in either the literary world or the corporate. Spencer Selby On Thu, 6 Apr 1995, Ron Silliman wrote: > I've been surprised at how reified and mystified the term *power* seems > to be in these discussions. There are of course all kinds of power, an > infinite variety of shadings and nuances. To collapse them into a > does/does not binary system seems not of great value. > > Most of the power that poets have (and this may be true of large > portions of what old Althusser used to call ideological state > appartatuses) seems specifically conferred by readers and other writers. > Almost a "consent of the governed." > > I doubt that there can be many/any of us on this list who have not seen > the underbelly of power at its most horrific at one point or other, and > who have not sworn to ourselves in private (and often enough to others > in public) not to allow that to happen (to us or others) and never if > possible to be the origin of such abuse. Having been raised by a > psychotic who chased me around the house with knives, I can sympathize > with Marta and do. But it doesn't simplify the state of the world much > to know that. When Gary extends the argument to rope in Sulfur & > Conjunctions as tenure driven academic mags, I get lost. Whatever their > faults (and each mag is radically different), neither gives a hoot about > that system of academic power. What we get is not a critique so much as > resentment over imagined exclusion. > > (Althusser himself being a pretty good example of how power shoud not be > used....) > > Ron > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 22:03:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Re: Desire, responsibility, etc. X-To: w.curnow@auckland.ac.nz In-Reply-To: On 6 Apr 1995 w.curnow@auckland.ac.nz wrote: > Dear Gary, > I am sorry I confused St Paul and Tucson, lack of close reading on > my part. You can tell me if they are very different--one's a colder place > than the otherI guess and I'm sure they both in songs, but in different > songs? Not having met you, Wystan, nor having ever been to Tucson, I would imagine that Tucson and St. Paul are as different--and similar--as you & I. > > I forgive you for your agism, you'll be glad to know I was not deeply > wounded by it. What did interest me about your post, and here I will be a > bit personal when it is precisely the personal in all this which is a worry, > what did interest me is that having begged forgiveness for your sins you > wanted then to end your post with what I took to be an accusation of a sort. > It was as though you were balancing the books in some fashion. Quite possibly. Why is "the personal" a worry to you? > There you make this contrast, and it is a heavy moral one, between > expressions of heartfelt concerns and flattening comments reducing such > expressions to those of "strategy". What I want to ask is this: wasn't the > shift you effected in the discussion of Ginsberg's aesthetics to the > personal and thence to the moral the deploying of a strategy, and was it not > reductive of the issues, ie. flattening? In the sense that thinking about something, and then saying it, is "strategizing"--yes. I gave very little consideration to the shift, which is not to say that the shift itself didn't occur. I was arguing/engaging in a dialogue about Ginsberg w/you and others. I said what I thought to be relevant. You don't, of course have to agree w/me that it *was* indeed relevant. But I did think it was, which was why I brought it up. >I don't mind that the discussion > changed direction--sidetracking keeps the net active.I also consider the > person-to-person character of much posting on the net is one of its pluses. > But that isn't to say I have to accept, let alone applaud, its claims to > transparence. We agree with the first two statements. I have a problem with the words "applaud" and "claim" in the last sentence. You're implying I was asking you to applaud something. I didn't go that far. I did suggest we might accept that people here--forget me in this--other people here are saying things that they really do believe and/or care about. If I thought genuine expression of belief or feelings was impossible in this space, I'd leave. It's bad enough people read subtexts into everything. I understand how easily that happens, since we're all readers of poetry, almost "expect" subtext. But it has seemed to make communication here much more difficult than it might otherwise be. I'm trying to express certain opinions, ideas, emotions, as well as impart information and sell a few copies of a book or two--and I think that's what everyone else here is trying to do too. Sure, there are things going on under and over the surface of some of this--including in things I've posted. But everything? I tend to be a somewhat cynical person, but certainly not wholly suspicious of others, even those with whom--like you, on this--I disagree. I wonder, Wystan--are your worries about "the personal" and your disbelief at the sincerity of anything said here related? Do you think "the personal" should be kept out of all of this? Would you rather it all be abstract? Comfortable? Living is not always either. Yours, Gary ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 21:14:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Viktor Sosnora April 6, Dear Ron, Could you do me the favor of forwarding the following message to the poetics list and/or whatever other recipients you think might receive it appropriately and with kindness. Ilya sent it to me (in Russian) and what I am sending is my translation -- slightly emended for U.S. readers. Thanks. Much love, Lyn Dear Friends, The Russian poet Viktor Sosnora is threatened with the complete loss of his sight. Because Sosnora, who is 60 years old, has already entirely lost his hearing, blindness would bring about his complete isolation, cutting him off from life and from his work. Sosnora is one of the greatest of living Russian poets. Though associated with such wellknown figures as Bella Akhmadulina and Andrei Vosnesensky and other poets of the "60s generation," Sosnora's writing was for many years banned in the Soviet Union, and it was a Russian language publisher in the U.S., Ardis, that brought out his COLLECTED WORKS (1988). Over the past six years, Sosnora has undergone three eye operations in Russia, but his vision has continued to deteriorate. At the moment, another operation, using advanced techniques, is urgently needed. We have arranged for Viktor Sosnora to enter Johns Hopkins Medical Center in Baltimore, where the most advanced surgical procedures appropriate to his condition are available. May 10 is already fixed as the date of his surgery. Everything now depends on money. The complete medical examination and surgery will coast a minimum of $10,000. In addition to this, approximately $1000 is needed to cover the cost of airfare between St Petersburg and the U.S., and a futher $1000 will be required to allow Sosnora to spend a month after surgery in the U.S., to allow for medical follow-up and recuperation. Altogether, then, $12,000 is needed, and most of that must be raised by early May. We are appealing to everyone who is able to do so to contribute to the fund for Viktor Sosnora. Checks may be made out to "LITFUND (for Viktor Sosnora)" and mailed to LITFUND, c/o Novoye Russkoye Slovo, 111 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY 10003. Thank you. Signed: Joseph Brodsky, Allen Ginsberg, Ilya Kutik, Mikhail Epshstein ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 00:42:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Consent of the governing Dear gary (sullivan)--I just wanted to say one thing about SULFUR...Though I have been rejected by SULFUR far more than I've been accepted (I was only accepted once circa 1991), I do respect Clayton as a conscientious editor who does read works of young and "unknown" poets...In fact, he has often written me quite IMPASSIONED rejection letters, which I certainly prefer to the form letter in which ONE NEVER KNOWS if one's been read.... When he accepted my work, I had published hardly anything outside a more "working class" "beatnik" kind of mag...in terms of 'avant-garde' I had only been published in New American Writing and had an essay appear on Kit Robinson in POETRY FLASH...Sulfur showed an openness to my work that few did...furthermore, this was AFTER it had rejected my work with some "pretty nasty" words.Though I certainly don't consider it an IDEAL magazine, I respect this. Chris Stroffolino ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 22:14:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Consent of the governing Oh, posh, Gary, I haven't appeared in Sulfur in years and Clayton rejected the last piece or two I sent him (with angry notes about how I wasn't reading him seriously enough). Sulfur has always published a few younger poets (and Caterpillar before that, which is how I first met Clayton in the late '60s through d alexander, long dead I've heard, a college buddy of Eshleman's who published a great little mag called Odda Tala and who brought me his address book when I first started Tottel's so that I could write to Blackburn and Schwerner). Personally, I've always thought Clayton had dreadful taste in younger poets, even when I was one of them. He's been much better at older, neglected poets. He was one of the first to really push the work of Gustaf Sobin in the US, one of the first to print Dennis Phillips beyond the LA city limits, did really a major job in getting George Stanley's work out many many moons ago. He's totally responsible for whatever audience Gerrit Lansing has in the US (and that alone is a major accomplishment). But most of the younger poets that Clayton publishes you don't remember. The others--the so-called tenured--he prints (myself included whenever that happened) are part of an argument he is making about how poetry in the US should look and be read. When Adrienne Rich abandoned her old formalist modes in the 1960s to take a feminist stance, it was Clayton who published her -- not, say, Anthony Hecht. But I've never had a small press publisher with even halfway decent distribution, never had a book of my own poems with more 1,000 copies (except for Tjanting, which has had a second edition of 600 to add to the first of 1,000), hardly ever had the same publisher two books in a row, don't get my books reviewed in any general publication, never had a tenure track teaching job (tho admittedly I've turned down a couple that paid less money than I live in), always -- always! --held 40+ hour per week jobs while I wrote, edited, curated reading and talk series "on the side." I've gotten exactly one NEA grant (16 years ago), which I used to fix my teeth, a couple of part time teaching jobs that reminded me of what poor working conditions teachers have and my home town library doesn't even carry my books. In 1986, when two members of the Guggenheim literary panel told me that I had been their "first choice," the oversight committee scratched my name right off the list -- now that's tenure! And, guess what? I have no real complaints. My publishers have virtually all been wonderful people who were enormously attentive to the inner dynamics of the work itself, who were passionate in their commitment to poetry and to their readers. My books have been great experiences for me. People come up to me on the street and tell me how this or that passage had some moving impact on their lives (one opera composer once showed up at my door to tell me that he hadn't written any music in 3 years until he read Paradise and suddenly had a complete score in his head). I've met many of the most wonderful people on the planet -- more than a few of whom are on this list -- from Nanjing to Vilnius to the Canary Islands to Tuscaloosa, and have had the opportunity to give readings at some amazing places, like a 12th century chapel under a full moon at midnight in the south of France in a howling mistral. Or the maximum security library at Folsom prison. Or a used book store on Maui. These are experiences and friendships I wouldn't trade for anything. The life and work of Leland Hickman has always been a great inspiration to me. Lee showed that you could shape the course of writing in this society with just ten issues of a magazine if your sense of what you were doing was strong enough and sensible enough. In his own town, he was never taken nearly seriously enough and I suppose he may have been a "difficult" person as so many of us poets are. The only mistake Lee made was to exclude his own poetry from Temblor. (His _Great Slave Lake Suite_ is a wonderful book, major in every sense that any poem would ever want to achieve. Had Lee hung out with the beats in SF in the 50s or hung with the Rolling Renaissance in the 60s, he'd've been one of the "household name" poets of his generation.) But the idea that Lee or I or anyone else you might think of got where they are through a process of confered seniority bestowed by our seniors is just bunk. Clayton scratched and clawed his little space of the public sphere out of a completely indifferent world. One of the real lessons of life is that audiences are not passed on or down. You build them one reader at a time. Besides, more people read my work in Stifled Yawn than they do when it appears in Conjunctions. (This is not an exaggeration -- journals like Margin #4/Period(ical) or lyric& or the Impercipient are read passionately and completely by their readers where Conjunctions is skimmed and treated far differently -- I always hear back far more from readers when I publish in smaller mags than when I show up in perfect binding.) Ron ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 02:45:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mn Center For Book Arts Subject: Re: Consent of the governing In-Reply-To: <2f84ab084562002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Gary. Yes poets are humans and subject to all the political and personal manipulations of such beings, which certainly influences who publishes who, when, etc. and yes the avant-garde is isolated and magnifies, within itself, such power relations. But do any of us operate solely within this avant-garde world? My other work, which has me working much more widely within an arts & education & philanthropic community, makes me both more aware of the power moves among various communities, while at the same time less worried about such moves -- how important are they, anyway? Yes, on a personal level, and concerning issues of actual abuse, they are crucial and can be devastating? But on the level of who gets published in Sulfur or by Drogue or Chax or Detour, are we only aware of how important that is in the so-called avant-garde community? When we place such importance on who gets distributed by SPD, what are we saying? Yes, maybe 100 to 500 more copies of a book get distributed, but maybe not? More people see your words on this poetics list than buy a good many of the books carried by SPD. Your generosity in spreading the fine works of Detour Press may ultimately be more important than distribution by SPD. None of us are selling thousands of books to Barnes & Noble -- but would that be such a grand goal, either? As to Sulfur & Conjunctions, I can't agree with you. I certainly have some major arguments with both, but I also feel that both have read my work carefully, including at times before I had published books. Sulfur has published one piece, an essay on Nichol & McCaffrey which began with a poem of mine. That was a piece I didn't expect them to be interested in, and they surprised me, even including an inventive and funny visual piece from Rational Geomancy. I think the editors of those magazines may have formed their likes & dislikes before you or I began writing, and their openness is certainly limited. But I think they publish works they sincerely admire (no matter how much I disagree with some of those works, or with the overall sense of the mags). I do not believe their first thoughts are the reputations of the writers. Still, I don't particularly like defending them here, when I'd rather speak up for such editors as you and Juliana Spahr and Spencer Selby and others whose work I currently attend to with more desire (that word, that passion, again). I am apalled at the Tucson story. It's such a small world there that I'm surprised I had never heard that story, despite living there at the time. But there, in a context often seemingly ruled by the academic poetry scene, I existed and paid attention mostly outside that Poetry Center setting, sometimes ignoring it for months and months in a row, thereby somehow personally denying it its power, or perhaps only deluding myself. all best, charles alexander ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 16:48:51 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Geraets Subject: P&P (Prublic&Private) Dear Tony thanks for the letter which made me feel a bit curly and famous my name on top in CAPS and all. Strange how and where things stir responses. My response here was at the weird way in which Public Private are construed - maybe especially on this List, especially lately. Instance, I invite you in Public about your margin/mainstream experience, we talk Private (Backchannel), you reply Public citing my/our Private (Backchannel) exchange. Now I'll send this Public but at the same time send something Private..dunno why. Mostly we're pretty affable on the List, elbows spread, kind smiling. I like that. Same time, I feel that in this medium bot Public and Private utterances are, as elsewhere, formalized. To me this suggests that the only Private we have is Public. So when I see (in myself, too) the final appeal being a kind of personal indisputable integrity ie. when I claim personal honestly or feeling or integrity or wholeness - it seems to me its not open to challenge, dispute. Our last recourse. I like what Marcel Broodthaers was doing with his conjectural art museum and his poetry books set in white plaster. I'm sure confused a bit on this one but I guess in this talk of power and things the one really unassailable one is that of personal integrity. That's what you got me thinking Tony - not your responsibility for sure, but thanks for your serious fun letter too. I'm very abstract. (ps as they used to point out in reviews in nz literature, I think Jim Baxter had Colin Durning his Dunedin dentist mate, in mind in Jerusalem writing) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 19:30:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: sexual harassment oh, andrew, i wouldn't defend mr. thomas or the status quo, surely, nor would i defend the self-righteous, among others. the answer is: go away, write your poems, and stop making poetry look like a talk show. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 09:55:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Consent of the governing you're absolutely right, gary; there are politics and "tenure" even in poetry, but it's there mostly for those who seek out big publishers and get the jobs, grant, tenure, but the really great poets (bronk, spicer) survive outside. so there's that. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 10:01:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: prevaricating intellectual goo (sex power...) chris: i hope lacan disappears from poetry forever; i had to teach him in a graduate seminar recently and used his essay on the purloined letter and came out of it feeling that whatever he knew about signifiers he knew nothing about poe. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 10:06:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: poeticslist and Desire but, ryan, in stein in fact the private is very public. tender buttons? stanzas in meditation? lifting . . . well, you just go on from there. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 10:18:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Consent of the governing an outsider's comment: i'm finding the public-izing of what i would have taken to be (formerly) private spaces to be fascinating... gary and ron: in your exchange, you each reveal a good deal about your own publishing experiences, the sorts of things that don't get a lot of air play (i mean, we're talking an audience here of 200 or so), though precisely the sorts of things that are typically discussed twixt practitioners... and this has drawn out commentary by charles a., chris s., etc., along precisely such lines---who publishes whom, what this signifies, etc... now the point here for me has less to do with the personalities involved (or the journals cited) than with the sort of knowledge thus constituted (apologies for making this a remotely 'theoretical' concern)... this sort of talk has to do with the nuts & bolts of the marketplace of poetry, hence i feel it fair to observe that an entirely individualistic reading of same (ron, you tend in your remarks toward the individual-communal, insofar as 'success' is concerned) or the more power-oriented discourse (gary, you seem to me to tilt in such directions) represent in fact complementary views of how publishing decisions are made, books get printed, etc... that is, a sort of micro/macro split may be seen to inhere across your exchange, and i'm not really quite certain (pardon my beak) that you're really so "opposed" to each other... it's more like you each seem to be emphasizing a different aspect of the same apparatus (without wishing to deny actual differences between you)... just an observation, if you will, perhaps entirely beside the point... i have absolutely NO experience with any of the journals/editors/poets you mention other than a few, near-anonymous rejections (as i recall) from some years ago, so i really can't add a helluva lot to the discussion, hence, again, my "outsider" status, and my fascination attending thereto... joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 11:13:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Power aside from the obvious exceptions (certain lyric affectations, etc.), is it wise for a poet, at least now, to "consent to be governed" by anyone this side of east mars? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 11:12:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert A Harrison Subject: poem To Not Think of Velvet I went to 3 rd grade with Joe Biden's daughter now he rides out through ballots keeping a mouse in her lap they're shriveled in color waiting for your line here sesames in the mill powder balls on the eye this place four switches as a heart, run run run ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 14:52:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert A Harrison Subject: Re> Re: Power ed foster sez: >aside from the obvious exceptions (certain lyric affectations, etc.), is it wise for a poet, at least now, to "consent to be governed" by anyone this side of east mars? no. i'd like to believe that. stromboli. pit ribbon. hoe cellar. pre-palaver moon fitter. bob harrison ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 15:47:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert A Harrison Subject: power "we've got so much power." --- Negativeland ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 00:09:30 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: poeticslist and Desire X-To: EFOSTER@vaxc.stevens-tech.edu 'money' was and is a 's/he' character in a story? can we invest a little more - i'd love to go shopping here. i'll trade these 39 odd words (one word each lived year) whatever you care to offer in return. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 16:41:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Julius Hemphill In-Reply-To: <9504061452.AB09866@isc.sjsu.edu> Jed -- Thanks for word of that tribute piece -- I hadn't heard of it. I don't think _Dogon A.D._ or _Coon Bidness_ have been reissued yet -- I thought they were available because the LP I got from a cut-out bin was an Arista reissue of the original, and I expected it was still part of the catalogue after Arista re-aligned with Columbia years ago. Maybe it will reappear one of these days. Several years ago, Hemphill did a residency in D.C. with District Curators, culmianting in a free outdoor performance of his compositions by a huge gathering of talented volunteer instrumentalists. (culminating, too -- I'm back on that uncorrectable keyboard again)-- I've been collecting recordings of jazz with poetry, and a chapter on the subject will be in a book I'm doing with Cambridge. I love the Hemphill Big Band sessions, though I'm not thrilled by the poem by my neighbor K. Curtis. I'm told the new Henry Threadgill recording has a poem on it. Have you heard that one yet? Would be interested in hearing from anyone who knows of lesser-known recordings of jazz with text. An old one I stumbles across recently is a setting of an Elouise Loftin poem by Andreww Cyrille. Anybody out there heard Steve Lacy's songs made from Creeley poems? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 21:51:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Governing Consent / The Descent of the Governed In-Reply-To: <9504080402.AA23906@isc.sjsu.edu> "I stumbles?" "I" stumbles? This machine draws my attention to the oddities of my own language -- BUT RE _Sulfur_ etc. -- My understanding, gathered from the few newer poets (which is not to say younger) I know who have been published in _Sulfur_ is that most of them got in by way of one of the contributing editors -- Those who had sent poems directly to Clayton generally received intemperate replies, though, as some have pointed out here, he occasionally takes a liking to something in the unsolicited pile & runs with it, about once a year by my estimation. It's about as silly to expect him to act differently as it is to tell writers not to take note of the fact. The point is to do something otherwise, which many on this list are doing. The Beats, the Language Poets, Black Mountain, all knew that they had little to expect from any of the journals on the scene when they began (including the more self-avowedly "open") -- and so began many of their own publishing organs (& now that they're old and powerful, I read here, they publish their organs) --\ When I started _lower limit speech_ I quoted what I had once heard Baraka reply to a young writer who asked what advice he had for young writers. Baraka told the fellow, "Get a copying machine and start a mag." I knew that there were many remarkable writers around the country who had the same difficulties publishing that I had encountered. The obvious answer was to try, in no matter how small a way, to get their work into circulation. None of this, though, means that we should stifle our criticism of those who have grown comfortable and resistant. We are to afflict the comfortable -- (odd grammar that) Example, Weinberger's self-righteous intro. to his special issue of _Sulfur_ wherein he claims that the younger generation just isn't interested in histroy & offers as proof the fact that he got so few responses to his open call for the issue, a call that went only to readers of _Sulfur_. History, that is, and translation. It;s easy, if you don't read or correspond with younger poets who are avid students of history and frequent translators of poetry, to argue that they're a pathetic group of ahistorical monolinguists. (I exaggerate Eliot's case slightly, but if you've read his frequent intros & essays you know what I refer to ((he seems to use the words "never" and "only" far more than any other critic I know)) I suppose it might be hard in a footnote to make an offer of proof that something "never" happens, probably why most of us are a bit more cautious. So, Ron gets published in print runs that are considerably smaller than those of, say, Sharon Olds, and that are considerably larger, and more frequent than those of, say, ME. On the other hand, Ron is a writer of continuing importance to my reading in ways that Olds clearly is not, and Ron, unlike Clayton, seems to take every opportunity that affords to bring to the attenbtion of whatever public he can get to the names and works of interesting pots who don't have even his limited access to publishing opportunities. As to tenure, in all senses, etc. I find it fascinating, in the H. Ross Perot usage, that the Language Poets were already accused of being in the game of trying to get cushy academic posts long before any of them had gotten hired by a university in a permanent position. Last time I checked into this, most of those who had gotten university jobs were _not_ hired to teach in the creative writing programs. I took a different route, and became an Assistant Prof. at a low=rent school (after 17 years and 17 non-teaching jobs) completely apart from my work _as_ a poet (I was hired as a critic and lit. historian) -- Ron & I both have jobs, at least, and can make time to write. Most of us on this list are in one way or another involved with the creation and development of self-governing, consensual postics networks,,,, and that is where we should look for the new -- I read, and fulminate at, _Sulfur_ , but that's not where I look to find new poets -- _Here_ is the place for the new writings to get mentioned, circulated, reviewed, denounced, praised, re-engendered ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 00:54:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Byrum Subject: Re: Consent of the governing power is powerful only within certain contexts, & then only when persons pay attention (grant power). When power is ignored, is the center (person) of that ignoring then outside that "powerful" context (with the result of seeming "powerless"), or perhaps asserting power in a different sphere? (perhaps often in a "personal" sphere only.) So, can one ignore power in one area in order to open a space for one's "personal" empowerment, perhaps simply in order to produce something? And then to who or what does that production speak? Follow the power, deepthrought said. Maybe we should just think & talk about stuff. Power is illusory (ill storied). John ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 01:10:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Byrum Subject: Re: Consent of the governing no outside, only concentric/amoebic hazes trailing off ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 04:22:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Murphy Subject: pow(d)er It's real and not real and one of those seductive things containing mostly imagined substance that seems very real from certain angles with a prism in the way. Paying attention in another way and toward a realer thing ironically yields power when perhaps you least desire it (there it is) SEM ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 04:43:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Posh, delusions & spite "Surely, Kelly's affirmation that 'we cherish the poem as a life- sustaining force' was intended to mean more than tenure. But does it?" --Ron Silliman, "The Soft Hello," _Salt Lick_ vol. 2, nos 1-2. Ron, Joe Amato may be right when he suggests that you & I are -- despite my "don't tell me" and your "oh, posh" -- not, finally, in complete disagreement. You say that people really *read* the photocopieds more often than the printeds. Isn't that what I've been saying? Only, you seemed to have misread that (beginning w/the usage of the word, "tenure") and came to the conclusion I was suffering from acute "resentment of imagined exclusion." Are the other people who prefer _Mirage_ to _Sulfur_ suffering the same? Why *don't* they more than skim mags like _Conjunctions_ or _Sulfur_? You say: "Clayton scratched and clawed his little space of the public sphere out of a completely indifferent world." Of course he did. How else would he ever have come to our attention? (Ed cites Spicer and Bronk, and here I'd mention the people who scratched & clawed on their work's behalf.) If one must "scratch" and "claw" their way to readers, does that seem more to suggest a generally "open" or generally "closed" system? All I was saying, in my initial post, was that the journals that are more open to newer writers (to more than one or two a year) are more interesting to me. For that, you call me deluded and spiteful. Then, a post later, agree with me. Tough love? You claim no tenure, and say, in support of that, you've not had many publishers publish more than one book by you, as though having a dozen presses ready, willing & able to publish your work is somehow a "minus." You're tenured, Ron; accept it. I'm not calling you a dirty name by calling you tenured; I'm merely pointing out a blessing. Your resistance to this has been surprising; it really isn't that big a deal, & I never intended to make it one. I was, last post, simply bringing you up as an example of someone whose work will be read at _Sulfur_ or _Conjunctions_. They are both different magazines, but they are both, *relatively* speaking, closed doors to work by newer writers. As work by newer writers is one of my primary obsessions, I'm less interested in them than in magazines that publish a lot of the stuff. For my purposes, I don't need _Sulfur_ or _Conjunctions_. Most of the work in them will be in book form not long after publication in the mags, anyway, so why should I pay twice? Marta & I just saw _Hoop Dreams_ tonight. Anyone who thinks poets have it tough ought to see what these kids go through, are put through, in pursuit of *their* goals. Incredible. Yours, Gary ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 02:51:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Spencer Selby Subject: Re: Consent of the governing In-Reply-To: <199504071056.DAA14534@> Dear Ron, Excuse me for jumping in again, but I am so surprised at what you are saying. Do you think yr name, yr reputation, yr cred, yr body of published work don't count, and count for a lot at this stage? Do you think that the only thing publishers consider when you send them a ms. is the actual writing on its pages? In yr most recent post you paint this picture of yourself with some details that might seem to disprove the idea that you have in some way established yourself. Why else say that you are never published by the same publisher twice or that yr books never are printed in runs of over 1000? All this means is that you're still operating in the avant garde poetry world (where print runs are never more than 1000 and where repeat publishers may not even be preferable). It does not mean that you don't have a very large rep in that world and that you don't get a big benefit from that rep. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you've had more substantial books published in this world in the last 15 or so years than anyone else. I would think this would be a more pertinent fact than yr points about print runs and not being published by the same publisher twice. Please don't misunderstand me. I very much respect you and yr work. And I'm not saying that that work has nothing to do with yr standing. However, I think it's wrong for you to deny that standing--for the sake of an argument or for whatever reasons you may have. Another thing that puzzles me is yr point about Sulfur (a mag that I too appreciate, along with Talisman, Mirage and others). Yr reasoning there doesn't seem right, since some friction is a part of Clayton's relationship with many people that are still within what might be called his sphere of mutual appreciation and support. For the record, I would consider myself within that sphere, though of course I cannot speak for Clayton, and I do not know if he would agree with this assessment. Lastly, I would like to thank you for bringing up the memory of Lee Hickman. Lee was indeed extraordinary, and Temblor truly did make a mark. It's just my opinion, but I believe the big reason for this was Lee's heroic integrity. He took his job as editor/publisher so seriously, and he gave incredible attention to virtually all the work that was sent to him while Temblor was going. Lee's commitment to poetry was definitely above and beyond the call, and everyone today could benefit from remembering what he did and how he touched so many. Yrs, Spencer ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 07:46:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Julius Hemphill In-Reply-To: <199504072345.TAA08941@sarah.albany.edu> from "Aldon L. Nielsen" at Apr 7, 95 04:41:29 pm writes anon: >Anybody out there heard Steve Lacy's songs made from Creeley poems? yes. I wa slucky enough to be at the ur-performance at the Festival de Lille where the combination of the music, the dance & Kenneth Noland's stage set/painting made for one of the greatest jazz experiences I had. BTW, for those on the list in driving distance, on April 18 at 8:00 p.m. Steve Lacy & Irene Aebi will be giving a concert in Page Hall here in Alabany, Nueva York. & it's free! Pierre ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | He who wants to escape the world, translates it. Dept. of English | --Henri Michaux SUNY Albany | Albany NY 12222 | "Herman has taken to writing poetry. You tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | need not tell anyone, for you know how email: | such things get around." joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --Mrs. Melville in a letter to her mother. ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 08:12:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Posh, delusions & spite In-Reply-To: <199504080945.FAA22066@sarah.albany.edu> from "Gary Sullivan" at Apr 8, 95 04:43:59 am Lawdie Lawd, Gary, why split so many hairs & get your knickers in an either/or twist. I want there to be, so that I may read them, Sulfur AND Talisman AND Conjunctions AND every small magazine that is being put out. They obviously have different functions, different aims, different possibilities. They also have different dross. I read maybe 1/5 of any given issue of Conjunctions, & the same holds true for most small new mags (though it's easier to read all or most of them because they tend tyo be much smaller...). Since the invention of the mimeograph there has been no reason to bitch at whatever you can't control or have access to. Just cranck that handle. Pierre ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | He who wants to escape the world, translates it. Dept. of English | --Henri Michaux SUNY Albany | Albany NY 12222 | "Herman has taken to writing poetry. You tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | need not tell anyone, for you know how email: | such things get around." joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --Mrs. Melville in a letter to her mother. ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 07:41:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Standing X-cc: rsillima@vanstar.com Spencer Selby wrote: "Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you've had more substantial books published in this world in the last 15 or so years than anyone else.... I think it's wrong for you to deny that standing" As sweet as it is to read such things, the operative phrase in your argument, Spencer, is "I think...." Obviously Eliot Weinberger doesn't agree with you and I doubt Gertrude Schnackenberg or Amiri Baraka would and there's no particular reason to think that even a handful of people on this list would agree. This isn't to "deny that standing" but rather to be specific about what that standing is. My work plays a particular role in a subjective map you have of recent poetry (and I'm flattered by that role, I admit), but there's nothing objective about that map. There are literally thousands of alternative maps floating in the heads of other readers. One reader, one map is the ratio I see and I certainly know that it's possible to hold somewhat different maps at different times of day, different days, different months. One thing I do know is that my work doesn't play any role even remotely like the one you pose in your map within my own map(s). [I've been living in the Age of Watten myself, but that's another story....] When several readers hold maps with significant amounts of overlap, communities of reading can form and build on these foundations one way or another. But there's still nothing particularly objective about it and positing it as such I think sets in motion exactly the sort of reified literary surface that causes somebody like Gary to feel that it's a (hostile) solid object and impenetrable. In reality, it's much more like an ever shifting dream state. And we've all seen just how invested in creating such sorts of solid objects the likes of a Helen Vendler or Harold Bloom or Hilton Kramer can be. That's all nonsense, but when institutions and money get involved it can become quite sinister. (And what Deep Throat said was not "follow the power" but "follow the money".) My point in my previous post was to distinguish (however poorly) between editors (like Clayton & Brad) who are driven by individual/private motives and those institutions (like the Guggenheim, most academic teaching jobs, trade and university presses, and a broader circle of wannabe institutions, like Poetry Flash) that are INSTITUTIONALLY & BUREAUCRATICALLY DRIVEN and every bit as much of a closed world as any posed by the limits on reading of a given editor. I think (to use that operative verb phrase) that you make a real mistake when you confuse the engines of your subjective map with those institutional engines of economic power. Hank Lazer has written some extraordinary pieces on how those engines function in poetry today and Jed Rasula has done likewise (and even published them in Sulfur). Whatever substance there may be in my books or in anybody's books who works through what you call "the avant garde," it is not the substance of economic institutions. So that when a Joe Brainard gets picked up by a trade publisher, there is a meta event occuring as the work takes on a new life very different from that which the author envisioned during the writing process. (And it's a damn shame that Joe did not live to see this.) I've been wondering about the stratification of institutionality that has been posited in these postings by Gary and some others. I think that what Brad and Clayton are doing is much closer to the impulses of Kevin Killian/Dodie Bellamy and Gary Sullivan than they are to the impulses that drive the Yale Younger Poets or Iowa Writers Workshop or the Pulitzer nominations committee. When I grew up as a young poet, there were fewer layers to sort through, but that doesn't mean that we should collapse them into the same old boring Them & Us. We're all Us (and, conversely, we're all Them too). Love, Ron ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 11:53:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: poeticslist and Desire money, honey, isn't me, but only joy, empirically; honey's golden, money's green--green, green, i long for green, said lorca and was not obscene, tho in that poem fully seen. (after, jack would lose himself in the hearts of . . .) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 12:05:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Re> Re: Power as jack said: "loneliness is necessary for pure poetry." and also: at a bar, speaking with poets, "we will try to destroy each other or even listen to each other and nothing will happen because we will be speaking in prose." power? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 12:39:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Colleen Lookingbill Subject: Re: Standing It would seem from reading this last weeks posts that power and denial are directly linked. Ron and Rae who are more in the position than others in the discussion are most denying of it! What is the old "s/he who protests too loudly" quote? Having worked for Pacific Bell in a variety of management positions for fifteen years now, I see little difference in the power "games" of our little poetry world - it used to shock me, but not any longer. Both worlds assume that if you are not "playing the game" of political power and influence (it doesn't matter what that means in terms of the larger outside world - PB managers have no real effect outside of their power spheres either) you are either stupid or weak or rebellious - none of which are the earmarks of success. It must be a great help not to know you are playing! For those of us who are neither emotionally nor idealogically equipped to "play" we learn our own ways, which sometimes are successful, but more often not nearly as advantageous in terms of the reward system. - Colleen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 10:06:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Leland Hickman, Joe Brainard Spencer Selby says that "everyone today could benefit from remembering what [Leland Hickman] did and how he touched so many." Ron Silliman says that "it's a damn shame that Joe [Brainard] did not live to see [the reprint of his book "I Remember" by Penguin]".) We could all benefit from remembering that these two great angels of poetry died from AIDS. I know we're all AIDS'd out in many ways but the word itself only gains in potency from not being mentioned. We could also admit that we are living in the age of HIV and that all our writing is AIDS writing whether we know it or not. I know this is my own particular King Charles' head but here I go again. I'll paraphrase myself (and Sarah Schulman) again when I add that history will judge us not by our publication record in Conjunctions or anywhere else, nor if we ever publish another poem again, but on how we responded to this plague in our own terms in our own lives. Can I recommend to you all Aaron Shurin's work on a poetics of AIDS which has been appearing here & there, most notably in the latest issue of Apex of the M, edited by Lew Daly, Alan Gilbert, Kristin Prevallet and Pam Rehm? Later. I sound like an old nag here but, that's Cassandra speaking through me, not the "real" Kevin Killian. I'm interested in the debate about power (standing, sexuality, harassment, desire) & please let it continue swirling around me. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 12:28:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Re: Posh, delusions & spite In-Reply-To: <199504081214.FAA25498@mailhost.primenet.com> On Sat, 8 Apr 1995, Pierre Joris wrote: > Lawdie Lawd, Gary, why split so many hairs & get your knickers in an > either/or twist. > ...Since the invention of the > mimeograph there has been no reason to bitch at whatever you can't > control or have access to. Lawdie Lawd, Pierre, to paraphrase Stein: "Why can't you read what I've written?" I'm not bitching; I'm stating a preference. "Splitting hairs" I'll totally admit to. Most everyone who's added to this discussion has done that, too. So what? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 12:44:44 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: eric pape Subject: Re: SEX!, just to get your attention. In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 6 Apr 1995 11:24:33 -0700 from 1)Chris -- Actually, I think there is a lot of Lacan in my last posting, but a Lacan deliberately misread by feminists and others interested in gender. This is a Lacan I am particularly interested in. As for the phallus, I am much more interested in what he says about the object of desire when he says WOman does not exist, which we must recognize from a male heterosexist pov, in that the object of desire as fantasized by those who have the phallus, ie, the person who desires, does not exist as fantasy. But of course this assumes that the object of desire is always feminine and the desirer always masculine. Can we assume that now? 2) Ed: What does it mean to know Poe? Does it mean like, Hey Eddy, saw yourRaven thing last week. You must have been high when you wrote that! Which is unfortunately about as far as you get with some critics. Lacan's reading is only as valuable as it is a use. But can you think of any reading that is not a use? And isn't the point of Lacan in that particular essay that use always has a position? My thought would be that one must always take responsibilty for their position,for their use. This is not, I must say, Lacan's point. 3) Lindz: I am gratefull to you if only because you focused in on what I had to say about poetry. I would emphasize though that I am not advocating a path away from the merely personal, but simply to say that such a thing is not possible. There is no merely personal. I am interested in the sexing of poetry. Remember that WIttig says that language is gender neutral, but immediately says that to say that is relatively meaningless because we are gendered and thus gender everything else. I am interested in this proccess of gendering, and how it is essentially about fictions, it seems to me. This I think has enormous implications for how we read and how we write. Implications that have not been explored in poetry. Thanks, Eric. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 12:08:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: Standing >I've been wondering about the stratification of institutionality that >has been posited in these postings by Gary and some others. I think that >what Brad and Clayton are doing is much closer to the impulses of Kevin >Killian/Dodie Bellamy and Gary Sullivan than they are to the impulses >that drive the Yale Younger Poets or Iowa Writers Workshop or the >Pulitzer nominations committee. Ron, I can't speak for Kevin (is that clear to everybody--my opinions in no way necessarily reflect Kevin's opinions) but I think the openness and beneficience that drives Mirage's editorial policy (which is mostly Kevin's doing, I'm rather lazy in my input) is anything like Sulfur and Conjunctions. Both magazines, by the way, rejected me (that is, I think I was rejected by Conjunctions--no one ever bothered to write back to me) so I'm certainly not objective about them. I'd heard of Clayton's long "thoughtful" resonses to work, but to my piece he jotted a note saying he liked parts but it just went on and on. I guess I chatter away too much in my work. You, know, Ron, women have a history of rambling on and on about silly things. But, I know you don't feel that way. I think you're a great guy. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 12:12:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: Standing Oops, I had a typo in my last posting. The following line should read: I can't speak for Kevin (is that clear to everybody--my opinions in no way necessarily reflect Kevin's opinions) but I think the openness and beneficience that drives Mirage's editorial policy (which is mostly Kevin's doing, I'm rather lazy in my input) ISN'T anything like Sulfur and Conjunctions. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 15:19:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Question I received Got this question on the wire and wondered if anyone might know offhand? Thanks, Loss ------------------------------------------------------------- Many years ago, I read a poem by Neruda in translation. It was about how different animals would prefer to be different creatures. It also contained phrases like 'unlikely skin of the crocodile' and 'volcanic frauds of the earth.' If you know which poem this is, I would be most grateful if you would let me know. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 12:44:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: The mysteries of the mysterious menses So, how about a story, everybody. Well, several years ago there was this graduate creative writing student at SF State who had never been published. He was ten years younger than me and really eager. Anyway, he showed me a poem he had written about having sex with a woman during her period, with dark lurid descriptions of her menstrual blood. Not for the squeamish. Now, Clayton E. happened to have read here in SF at Intersection not long before this--and I noticed in CE's work a certain fondness for menstrual blood. So I told my young friend to submit his poem to Sulfur--and guess what, it was snapped up immediately! Coincidence? You tell me. Maybe you guys should reconsider what you're submitting. Dodie Bellamy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 00:28:01 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: poeticslist serve and desire moonish and homing would-be sleep to polish gold of sticky empires. gras-sy grass grass, denial moulds. when i feel like a slop on the mat it must be that aura of power I re-distribute . . . 'especially for the Jape of hearts' ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 19:17:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Galen Cope Subject: Re: Julius Hemphill Aldon- Threadgill's new disc has a couple of poems, with Mossa Bildner (introduced on 'Song Out of My Trees') and Sentienla Toy on Vocals. And liner 'poems' more than notes... Other discs that come to mind re: jazz and text: Jayne Cortez and the Firespitters (featuring Denardo Coleman, Al McDowell, Charles Moffett Jr. and Bern Nix) was released in Eurpoe by Radio Bremen in 1994 (and subsequently put out by Tradition & Moderne and Indigo Records, all, I think, in Eurpoe). Joseph Jarman's 'Song For' (on Delmark, 1991) features his reading of 'Non-Cognitive Aspects of the City' (with Thurman Barker, among others). George Lewis also did that disc for New World (last year?) that features Jerome Rothenberg, Quincy Troupe and Bernard Mixon reading... I'm sure there's others, but these off the top of my head... Hope it's of use... -Stephen Cope ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 22:58:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: The mysteries of the mysterious menses The messages from kevin from dody...Oh I get it and to top it off in NYC Diane Ward reads a poem that says "I want to be Dodie"(I spelled it wrong above). Dear Dodie, so why did Andrew Levy end up NOT calling his book the "THE MYTH OF THE NOT HER BLOOD"--maybe it has something to do with sulfur. Chris Stroffolino ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 23:18:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: Espousing 4/8 CONTENTS: + REP. HANCOCK OF MISSOURI, BACKLASH AGAINST OSCAR SPEECHES & POETRY GRANTS + THE PEOPLE!YES PETITION DRIVE + ONE PERCENT FOR CULTURE ACT + CLINTON'S REMARKS UPON TRANSMITTING NEA 1993 ANNUAL REPORT TO SENATE + CPB UPDATE (FROM 24 MARCH) + TRANSCRIPT OF CBS NEWS BROADCAST (from Congressional Record) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- + HANCOCK OF MISSOURI & BACKLASH AGAINST OSCAR SPEECHES The SPEAKER pro tempore. Under a previous order of the House, the gentleman from Missouri [Mr.Hancock] is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. HANCOCK. Mr. Speaker, Last night multimillionaire Hollywood actors, actresses, and producers--one after another--got up to accept their Oscar during the Academy Awards and ranted on national television about the need to preserve Federal taxpayer funding for the National Endowment for the Arts. For most people these petty little tirades about the NEA were probably just annoying. But I got angry. Think about those spoiled rich elitists preaching to hard-working, middle-class Americans that America's families should make more sacrifices to fund a Federal Arts bureaucracy in Washington. Nearly all the people in that room were multimillonaire entertainers. God bless them for being successful. I don't begrudge them their success. But if they really believe the work of the NEA is so important, they should start up a foundation and put their own money where their mouth is. Steven Spielberg and Quincy Jones could personally fund the Endowment at its present funding levels with a portion of their annual incomes. Half of the proceeds from the movie Forrest Gump could fund the Endowment. I didn't hear any such offers from any celebrities. It is an outrage to have these people tell viewers across America who are making $5 and $6 an hour or $20,000 and $30,000 a year that they should be making more sacrifices as taxpayers so we can have money for the NEA. I have nothing against the arts . I have personally contributed to the arts in my community. We need symphonies, community theatres, and local museums. Unlike the Hollywood hypocrites I have put my money where my mouth is. But I am definitely opposed to further taxpayer funding of the arts. There are other priorities in the Federal budget that are just more important, especially when the arts can and should be supported privately by those with the means to do so. The other problem with a government-funded arts program are the bizarre things that get funded when you trust bureaucrats with taxpayer dollars. I am not talking about the morally obscene grants, like the pornographic Mapplethorpe photos and the Annie Sprinkle nudie show--although those are definitely outrageous examples of abuse. I am talking about more mundane examples of waste and abuse. Let me give you an example of a typical NEA grant. My hometown newspaper, the Springfield News-Leader, did a story on March 20 on a constituent of mine who recently received a $20,000 NEA grant to aid him in his work as a poet. A lot of people contacted my office and talked to me personally about this article. I will call this individual Mr. Grantee which is not his name. Mr. Grantee of Willard, MO is a creative writing professor at Southwest Missouri State University making $42,000 a year-- a salary funded by the taxpayers. His wife works on the government payroll as a nurse for the public school system. He says his $20,000 NEA grant will supplement his income so he won't have to teach summer school, allowing him to concentrate on his poetry. Mr. Grantee says: `I will have less stress. I have a clearer creative mind.' A $20,000 government grant would relieve a lot of stress for a lot of people, including those who don't already draw a government-paid family income of $60,000 or more a year. Mr. Grantee, a very honest fellow, says he has already incorporated the money into his family budget. He says he used some of the funds to buy a dishwasher and an airline ticket to a conference. He also says he plans to buy a personal computer. I can think of a lot of Americans who wouldn't mind the government buying them appliances or paying for their personal travel. We are promised by Mr. Grantee in the article that he will produce at least one book of poetry and that he will even begin work on a second before the grant money runs out--books he intends to commercially publish, no doubt, and for which he will receive royalties. I have nothing against Mr. Grantee personally, and I regret the need to use him as an example. But this sort of routine grant is exactly what is wrong with the NEA. When there are so many competing budget priorities, when hard-working taxpayers are already so burdened, I just cannot justify taking money from families--many of them making less than Mr. Grantee--to buy college professors dishwashers and supplement their Government salaries to relieve them from the stress of paying bills. Frankly, it is an outrage. While the flaky, politically correct Hollywierd crowd on the West Coast may look down on my unsophisticated concern for the average taxpayer, the time has come to defund the National Endowment for the Arts and get the Government out of the art business once and for all. Worthy art--whether it is Mr. Grantees poetry or the local symphony--can survive with private support. Those who are spending so much energy and effort now to reserve taxpayer funding can and should turn their energy and effort toward private fundraising. That includes our self-righteous friends in Hollywood. If the public will not support certain artistic endeavors through their voluntary contributions, I hardly see why I, as their elected representative, should force them to spend their tax dollars on them. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- THE PEOPLE!YES PETITION DRIVE On 5 April, the People for the American Way launched "The People!Yes Project"--a nation-wide petition drive to save the NEA,CPB and NEH. According to their press release, the PAW seeks to "deliver 100,000 signatures bound in books to all 535 members of the House and Senate. These books will be delivered by a delegation of artists and citizens in May, before the crucial debates about Arts funding, debates that will be life and death for the arts institutions and community media that have proliferated since the genesis of these programs. We hope to debunk the elitist myths surround arts funding: American wants funding for the Arts!" The text of the petition is to read as follows: "We, the people, petition the Congress of the United States on behalf of the National Endowment for the Arts, National Endowments for the Humanities, and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. At little cost to taxpayers, these institutions have played a vital role in establishing a vibrant, inclusive, and informative cultural life in America. We must protect their survival and reaafirm our guarantee that they can continue to work free of political interference and threats. We reason and resolve, we oppose efforts to 'defund' or further marginalize the NEA, NEH, and CPB." The drive is scheduled to last from 5 April to 17 April. If you would like to participate, contact Gail Melhado or Andy Stettner at People for the American Way in New York: 1-212-944-5820. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- CLINTON'S REMARKS UPON TRANSMITTING NEA 1993 ANNUAL REPORT TO SENATE The PRESIDING OFFICER laid before the Senate the following message from the President of the United States, together with an accompanying report; which was referred to the Committee on Labor and Human Resources. To the Congress of the United States: It is my special pleasure to transmit herewith the Annual Report of the National Endowment for the Arts for the fiscal year 1993. The National Endowment for the Arts has awarded over 100,000 grants since 1965 for arts projects that touch every community in the Nation. Through its grants to individual artists, the agency has helped to launch and sustain the voice and grace of a generation--such as the brilliance of Rita Dove, now the U.S. Poet Laureate, or the daring of dancer Arthur Mitchell. Through its grants to art organizations, it has helped invigorate community arts centers and museums, preserve our folk heritage, and advance the performing, literary, and visual arts . Since its inception, the Arts Endowment has believed that all children should have an education in the arts. Over the past few years, the agency has worked hard to include the arts in our national education reform movement. Today, the arts are helping to lead the way in renewing American schools. I have seen first-hand the success story of this small agency. In my home State of Arkansas, the National Endowment for the Arts worked in partnership with the State arts agency and the private sector to bring artists into our schools, to help cities revive downtown centers, and to support opera and jazz, literature and music. All across the United States, the Endowment invests in our cultural institutions and artists. People in communities small and large in every State have greater opportunities to participate and enjoy the arts . We all benefit from this increased arts presence, and yet the cost is just 65 cents per American. The payback in economic terms has always been several-fold. The payback in human benefit is incalculable. The White House, April 6, 1995. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ONE PERCENT FOR CULTURE ACT On 7 April, the Associated Press reported that Representative Pat Williams (D-Montana) intends to propose a "1 Percent for Culture Act" that would effectively establish the NEA/NEH/IMS as true endowments, operating on the interest accrued annually on the $12 billion Williams proposes to set aside in FY 1996. The congressman seeks to establish an "American Cultural Trust" (which would also provide funding for the CPB) on the basis of a single appropriation of 1% of the $1.2 trillion federal budget. The AP story quotes Williams as acknowledging that "[t]his Congress is not going to appropriate $12 billion in one swoop.... But my first purpose is to jump-start the reauthorization process. The opponents of NEA have a strategy of killing it through a simple lack of action in the House." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24 MARCH--UPDATE ON CPB The Senate Appropriations Committee voted to freeze Corporation for Public Broadcasting (CPB) funding for FY 1996 and 1997 at the FY 1995 level of $285.64 million. This represents a reduction of 8.7% and 9.5% respectively for '96 and 97. No amendments were offered to CPB in mark-up. Proposed House cuts for CPB were for 15% and 30% for FY96 and 97. The Senate did not rescind any funds from Ready to Learn television or Mathline, whereas the House has proposed to eliminate both programs. The Senate did rescind $5 million from both Star Schools and Education Technology, leaving them with $25 million each for FY 1995. The House had eliminated Education Technology, and moved two-thirds of the Star Schools program to the Fund for Improvement of Education, rescinding the final third. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRANSCRIPT OF CBS NEWS BROADCAST (from Congressional Record) > PINEY WOODS OPRY IN ABITA SPRINGS, LA, RECEIVES ARTS ENDOWMENT GRANT > (Senate - April 04, 1995) > > [Page: S5097] > > Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. President, there have been many articles and > commentaries about the National Endowment for the Arts in recent > months. Opponents have complained that the Endowment supports elitist > institutions and elite audiences. But a recent story on the CBS > Evening News describes a different and more accurate example of the > Endowment's role--a grant made to Piney Woods Opry in Abita Springs, > LA. > > This grant from the NEA, totalling $14,900, enabled the Opry to > present performances of local musical folklore from the Depression > era. The performances entertain the citizens of Abita Springs, and > they will preserve this important part of America's musical heritage. > > This success story, and thousands of others like it across the > country, reveal the true mission of the Arts Endowment. Large > corporations and wealthy donors are unlikely to fund these programs, > but the Arts Endowment does. Mary Howell of Piney Woods Opry explained > why: > > When you ask why should the taxpayers want to support this kind of > thing . . . Because it's about us. It's about every one of us. > > I urge my colleagues to support the National Endowment for the Arts , > and I ask unanimous consent that a transcript of this segment from the > CBS Evening News may be printed in the Record. > > There being no objection, the transcript was ordered to be printed in > the Record, as follows: > > Transcript from the CBS Evening News, Mar. 31, 1995 > > Possible Budget Cuts to National Endowment for the Arts Cause Concern > for Piney Woods Opry > > Connie Chung, co-anchor. In the huge federal budget, $170 million may > not seem like much, but that's the 1995 budget for the National > Endowment for the Arts . Some members of Congress think it should be > zero. They call it a taxpayer subsidy for wacky or tacky artists who > play to a cultural elite. Is that really where the money goes? John > Blackstone has one case in point for tonight's Eye on America. > > John Blackstone reporting. There was a time when Saturdays across much > of rural America sounded the way they still sound in Abita Springs, > Louisiana. > > Unidentified Announcer: From the town hall in beautiful Abita Springs, > the Piney Woods Opry. > > Blackstone. Piney Woods Opry never fails to draw an overflow crowd, > though the songs and the sentiment are distinctly out of fashion. > > (Excerpt from Opry performance) > > Blackstone. The musicians, often in their 60s and 70s, are among the > last practitioners of a disappearing musical style. > > Mr. Bob Lambert (Evening Star String Band): This is a true American > music, and I think somewhere along the line, they're going to > appreciate it again. > > Blackstone: The local congressman was invited here tonight, but he > didn't come. He's a busy man these days, the new Republican chairman > of the budget-cutting House Appropriations Committee, and one of the > budgets he's busy cutting could have an impact right here. > > Representative Bob Livingston (Republican, Louisiana): All we're > trying to do is trying to bring common sense and sanity to the United > States federal budget. > > Blackstone: Congressman Bob Livingston is bringing down the budget ax > on federal funding for the arts , particularly the National Endowment > for the Arts . > > Rep. Livingston: We're going to be making drastic cuts, because we're > going to be looking toward a balanced budget by the year 2002, and NEA > has to prove that, you know, it is affordable. > > Blackstone: But ironically, Livingston is calling for cuts just as the > Piney Woods Opry, right in his own district, is due to receive its > first grant from the NEA, $14,900. > > Mr. Lambert: I don't want to get into politics but for the little bit > that we have got, I don't think anybody could be complaining about > that. > > Blackstone: Among the new Republican majority in Congress, money for > the arts is called welfare of the cultural elite. Is this the cultural > elite we're going to be seeing? > > Mayor Bryan Gowland (Abita Springs, Louisiana): Why, I wouldn't call > it the cultural elite. I don't know. > > Blackstone: Many of the folks who show up at the Piney Woods Opry > remember the hard times and honest music of rural America. > > Mr. Lambert: You know, I--I--I grew up in the Depression, and I--I--I > know what hard times is all about. > > Blackstone: Admission to the Opry is just $3 at the door. Producers > say the music isn't commercial enough to charge much more. Without > financial help to keep the show running and the recorders turning, > they say these songs will soon be gone, along with those who play > them. > > Ms. Mary Howell (Co-producer, Piney Woods Opry): We could lose our > history. And it seems to me that that's when you ask why should the > taxpayers want to support this kind of thing? I think that's why, > because it's about us. It's about every one of us. > > Blackstone: Lauren Kilgore sings the songs her father taught her. > > Ms. Lauren Kilgore (Singer): (Singing) Grandpa, everything is changing > fast. > > Blackstone: While the budget cutters sharpen their ax, the folks at > the Piney Woods Opry say the value of this music can't be measured in > dollars . . . > > Ms. Kilgore: (Singing) . . . families rarely bow their heads to pray > and daddies really never go away. > > Blackstone: . . . it can only be felt. In Abita Springs, John > Blackstone for Eye on America. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Permission is granted to freely copy this document in electronic form, or to print for personal use. *Freely Espousing* is an ongoing project aimed at protecting and further democratizing access to the arts, humanities, broadcast media, and emerging forms of communication. For more information, please contact: Steve Evans & Jennifer Moxley 61 E. Manning St., Providence RI 02906-4008 401-274-1306 Steven_Evans@Brown.Edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 23:51:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Mac Low on CD Can someone provide me information about a recent sound CD featuring or with work by Jackson Mac Low? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 23:57:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: HIV & AIDS In-Reply-To: <199504081709.KAA18967@mailhost.primenet.com> Dear Kevin: Could you say more about Aaron's piece? Also, have you seen Susan Smith Nash's pieces (in _Talisman_ and _Taproot_) on AIDS and the avant-garde? A few issues ago in _Talisman_, Aaron wrote a response to a piece Susan had done on the subject, in which he felt Susan had misread Aaron's work--I think he said that he hadn't (at that time) been writing about AIDS, not ready at that point to deal with it in his writing, though it was something he was (then) beginning to work towards. Also (this is a lot of alsos, I guess), I was very surprised, reading Steve Abbott's book, _The Lizard Club_ (which I *loved*), that--because it seemed so "autobiographical"--there was very little mention of HIV/AIDS there. It was very odd reading that book, knowing that he had AIDS and had died not long after completing it, that HIV/AIDS seemed, if not wholly missing, not addressed very much directly (as he addressed, his interest in "Hippie" lineage, his day-job, his hangouts, etc.). When reading _The Lizard Club_ I sort of half-assumed that AIDS & HIV were somehow being addressed obliquely--felt, in places--but was never completely sure how much I was reading into that. Thanks. Yours, Gary ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 01:35:28 -0400 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: Mac Low on CD >Can sombody provide me with information about a recent sound CD featuring >or with work by Jackson Mac Low? OPEN SECRETS, available frm Experimental Intermedia, 224 Center St., MY NY 10013 ($15). reviewed by Charlotte Pressler, who is on this list, in TRR #4--the paper version... lbd ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 02:47:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kenneth Sherwood Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Digression from the theme of poetry/power/publishing I've been following the discussion on poets' power with interest as it turns towards issues of publication, the economics of poetry--or, as in Ron's explicit reminder: 'follow the money.' The distribution of poetry, highly renumerative as it is (Mr. NEA Grantee living off a handout and handsome Penguin USA Royalties) has been on my mind as I think about and begin to work out some of the possibilites of electronic publishing. I've gained from the comments of some POETICS people in other, less textual spaces, lately; but I wonder if other participants in this space have also been thinking about writing and reading poetry online. Wittgenstein writes: I should like to say: when I read I feel a kind of influence of the letters working on me. . . . In particular, this interpretation appeals to us especially when we make a point of reading slowly--perhaps in order to see what does happen when we read. When we, so to speak, quite intentionally let ourselves be guided by the letters. . . .(PI #169/ pp. 69e) A slightly different take on the 'power' implicit in poetry, in even the (often more prosaic) language on this list. Most of us probably spend hours each week allowing ourselves to be guided by glowing letters upon VGA screens. I hope it doesn't seem too cute/self-reflexive, but I'd be interested in hearing how some of these questions of power/publishing (and also engaging poetry) come to bear, not in_Conjunctions_, _Sulfur_, _Talisman_ etc.--only one of which I've bothered to be rejected from thus far--but in this space. A number of the participants on POETICS have in one manner or another published writing on the Internet (in addition to the publication/quasi-publication of posting to lists such as this). Does this shift the 'power'/lack-thereof/attendant-responsibilites of poetry/poets? Is online poetry technologically hyped up 'distribution' or something more complicated? Does anyone find different aesthetic/political implications in online writing/reading? Or, as Ludwig Grenier was heard to ask: "Would it make sense to say, in these circumstances, 'I HATE PRINT'? And when I imagine this, can I then picture a poem in its place?" Ken Sherwood Buffalo sherwood@acsu.buffalo.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 01:45:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Spencer Selby Subject: Re: Standing In-Reply-To: <199504081442.HAA18511@> Dear Ron, I'm sorry, but yr post is seemingly based on misunderstanding the meaning of a single word in mine. When I said, "I think you've had more substantial books published," I did not mean this as a value judgment of yr work. I was following yr comments regarding yr publishing history. I was trying to say that I think you've had more full size or perfectbound books published in this avant garde realm in the last 15 or so years than anyone else. If true, this is a fact; there's nothing subjective about it. Everything we've been discussing does not reduce to subjective maps, as you imply. Poets have power, which is not all traceable to the power of their writing. Of course that power is relative and of course you can talk about all kinds of other mostly bigger spheres which make that power seem minor by comparison. But within the spheres where you and I and Gary and others have our primary literary activity and audiences, you have a significant amount of power which is connected to a standing and rep and cred that you also definitely have. With All Respect, Spencer On Sat, 8 Apr 1995, Ron Silliman wrote: > Spencer Selby wrote: > > "Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you've had more substantial books > published in this world in the last 15 or so years than anyone else.... > I think it's wrong for you to deny that standing" > > As sweet as it is to read such things, the operative phrase in your > argument, Spencer, is "I think...." Obviously Eliot Weinberger doesn't > agree with you and I doubt Gertrude Schnackenberg or Amiri Baraka would > and there's no particular reason to think that even a handful of people > on this list would agree. > > This isn't to "deny that standing" but rather to be specific about what > that standing is. My work plays a particular role in a subjective map > you have of recent poetry (and I'm flattered by that role, I admit), but > there's nothing objective about that map. There are literally thousands > of alternative maps floating in the heads of other readers. One reader, > one map is the ratio I see and I certainly know that it's possible to > hold somewhat different maps at different times of day, different days, > different months. One thing I do know is that my work doesn't play any > role even remotely like the one you pose in your map within my own > map(s). [I've been living in the Age of Watten myself, but that's > another story....] > > When several readers hold maps with significant amounts of overlap, > communities of reading can form and build on these foundations one way > or another. But there's still nothing particularly objective about it > and positing it as such I think sets in motion exactly the sort of > reified literary surface that causes somebody like Gary to feel that > it's a (hostile) solid object and impenetrable. In reality, it's much > more like an ever shifting dream state. > > And we've all seen just how invested in creating such sorts of solid > objects the likes of a Helen Vendler or Harold Bloom or Hilton Kramer > can be. That's all nonsense, but when institutions and money get > involved it can become quite sinister. (And what Deep Throat said was > not "follow the power" but "follow the money".) > > My point in my previous post was to distinguish (however poorly) between > editors (like Clayton & Brad) who are driven by individual/private > motives and those institutions (like the Guggenheim, most academic > teaching jobs, trade and university presses, and a broader circle of > wannabe institutions, like Poetry Flash) that are INSTITUTIONALLY & > BUREAUCRATICALLY DRIVEN and every bit as much of a closed world as any > posed by the limits on reading of a given editor. > > I think (to use that operative verb phrase) that you make a real mistake > when you confuse the engines of your subjective map with those > institutional engines of economic power. Hank Lazer has written some > extraordinary pieces on how those engines function in poetry today and > Jed Rasula has done likewise (and even published them in Sulfur). > > Whatever substance there may be in my books or in anybody's books who > works through what you call "the avant garde," it is not the substance > of economic institutions. So that when a Joe Brainard gets picked up by > a trade publisher, there is a meta event occuring as the work takes on a > new life very different from that which the author envisioned during the > writing process. (And it's a damn shame that Joe did not live to see > this.) > > I've been wondering about the stratification of institutionality that > has been posited in these postings by Gary and some others. I think that > what Brad and Clayton are doing is much closer to the impulses of Kevin > Killian/Dodie Bellamy and Gary Sullivan than they are to the impulses > that drive the Yale Younger Poets or Iowa Writers Workshop or the > Pulitzer nominations committee. When I grew up as a young poet, there > were fewer layers to sort through, but that doesn't mean that we should > collapse them into the same old boring Them & Us. We're all Us (and, > conversely, we're all Them too). > > Love, > Ron > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 04:08:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: braman sandra Subject: poetry and power To link two threads, the earlier thread on what poetry does and the current thread on the power of poets -- if the only power that poetry yields is personal power of some poets over others, this ain't saying much. Political scientists speak in terms of instrumental, structural, and symbolic power (I would add transformational), and power in its potential and actual states (I would add virtual). All we're talking about here is the simplest form of instrumental power. Not a very large ambition..... Sandra Braman ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 09:08:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mn Center For Book Arts Subject: Re: poetry and power In-Reply-To: <2f87a4614be3002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Thank you, Sandra, for your comments on the limits of power, and the limits as to ambition, in finding small powers so important. I remember Robert Duncan saying in conversation once that he felt it was important to write as though the poems had the ability to effect the world, even change it, even if one knew, more pragmatically, that such power was either nonexistent or severely limited. Still, such a conception offers perhaps a more broad discussion of the power of poets/poetry than the one of tenured versus novice or non-tenured. I think it might be more compelling to discuss the power of poems or of language than the power of poets. charles alexander ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 11:42:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: FUNKHOUSER CHRISTOPH Subject: Mac Low on CD In-Reply-To: <199504090621.CAA09621@sarah.albany.edu> from "Automatic digest processor" at Apr 9, 95 00:01:18 am Loss,, Jackson's Cd is _Open Secrets_, has 8 pieces on it, produced 1993 by Experimental Intermedia foundation 224 Centre St. NY NY 10013. If you want to buy it, go thru Jackson himself who seels them for $13 (this is what he said to tell others). It's a great cd, featuring music & many voices, btw, & useful liner notes. Jackson will have a number of digitized recordings on the cd-rom version of _the little mag_ which may be out as soon as june or july. dig it. chris ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 11:48:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: Consent of the governing Ron's response on the subject of "power", tenure, whatever, in wch he details his own experience, seems definitive. Truly, I hope this subject will go away, as it is boring beyond bearing. A measure of worthwhile subject surely must be the difference which may be made by one response or another. Why, in that case, does this list produce the opposite when it is composed of intelligent and passionate people committed to the baseline language art? I had a (seeming) endless correspondence more or less onthis subject in the late 80's or very early 90's with Spencer Selby who at that time maintained as he seems to wish to continue to maintain that the poetry world is nominalist; i.e. people build magazines, booklists, reading series, etc. around names rather than works. And that this translates into a kind of power and status which is not an exact mathematical function of the value of the work currently streaming (dribbling?) from that source. So? Yes, this is true. For one thing, most judgments about current work have little value in relation to any long-term assessment. The Cambridge Platonists were the hottest thing going hundreds of years ago, rather in the way that "theory" functions now. Read'em lately? For another, it's useless to think about poets in so immediate a manner. Your work is a lifelong arc (well, a much more complex shape than that); its weaknesses, lapses, gaps may contribute to strength. Neglect, lack of official endorsement, surely these are relative; surely too they are a just reward for the restless and radical desire to write. To imagine that there is a locus of power relevant to writing that exists outside the authority of that desire, which is self-permitted and demanded, is a foolish illusion. Knock long enough at the door of the one place which you imagine it matters to be published (i.e. Conjunctions, Sulfur) and no doubt you will be let in and learn that the place and object associated with idea and work are strictly irrelevant. Must it not be the case that the energy invested in imagining the opposite cd be better invested in re-imagining one's work? Isn't there, for every one of us, someone who imagines that we have more power than they? Someone I think is powerful, another who thinks me so; someone Gary Sullivan imagines to have more power than he and than is just (I pick Gary as a random example, not singling him out), and another who thinks that publisher-poet GS is a figure of the power position that this other has not attained? I studied for years with Hannah Arendt; the two most important things she taught me were 1) a social/political issue must not be confused with one that is individual -- one's own sense of marginality is irrelevant to the issue of how an institution like poetry marginalizes its participants. The other... well, this has been a bit stentorious, so I'll reveal the third thing Hannah Arendt taught me, and this involves a story. For a quarter a small group of students did an intense reading course with Arendt on 2 works of Marx and Hegel. We worked very hard, and apparently we were good students, as she said near the end of the course that she wanted to reward our work by taking us out to lunch at the Quadrangle club, the faculty club at the U. of Chicago. It seemed to us, none of whom had been in this sanctum sanctorum (save, perhaps, one or 2 of us who bused tables there -- as I did with Paul Butterfield, but that's another story), that this must signal our true arrival as intellectuals. The day arrived for our lunch, and we sat at an oblong table; Hannah was at one end, and I had grabbed the other. "Miss Arendt, Miss Arendt," I cried out -- earnest young intellect looking for arrival and power that I was -- "let me order the wine; I've been reading some books about wine." Hannah dissolved in laughter; "Tzome tzings (one wd have to have heard her rolling guttural penetrating voice to appreciate this I fear), Tohm, tzome tzing we do not learn from books!" That was the most important lesson she taught me. The same to you. Tom Mandel ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 10:50:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Digression from the theme of poetry/power/publishing ken, to begin to speculate in the directions you suggest requires methinks a bit of unpacking, esp. as regards "online"... now for some, "online" (with or without hyphen) can mean simply 'connection to a system'---any old how... however, there's a difference in creature-ly response twixt this that i type up and zip out to POETICS (hi y'all)--- typed up and zipped out, that is, on a vax mail system with modest line-by- line editing functions, and done with the constant threat that a burst of line noise will at any moment kick me offline---and the sort of online reading/writing one does simply while 'connected to' (physically, psychologically) the screen itself... that is, the space of the screen is an online space---subject to a variety of interpretations---even *before* i dial in with modem and terminal emulation to post mail to this list... and of course there are programs such as eudora (that i once had access to, alas) that enable offline composition and reading, if by offline one means not 'connected to' a mainframe (again, via modem or local wiring etc)... so to begin a discussion of online writing (poetry or otherwise) one almost must of necessity pull out (if you will) the distinction between the screen (your local system, mac, pc, what have you) and its connection to (or disconnection from) other such entities (through mainframes of one sort or another)... this said: i understand *you* to mean by online NOT the simple presence of an active stand-alone computer, but the merging of that computer with other such computers... which would NOT, again, for those using something like eudora for mail, constitute much in the way of online-ness save for that brief spell during which eudora dials in, sends out mail, checks and downloads mail to one's terminal... that is, email in itself may represent nary a whisper of the sort of online dynamics i'm certain you're alluding to... and if this is the case, if sending a poem, for example, to a list can represent a more thoroughly online activity for some than for others (given disparities in technologies) then we're all not starting from the same assumptions as to what it is that we take to be an online experience in the first place... sorry for going on so, i think you understand why i've had to... it's a messier topic than it appears at first glance... joe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 11:55:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Poetry/Jazz In-Reply-To: <199504072345.TAA00510@jazz.epas.utoronto.ca> from "Aldon L. Nielsen" at Apr 7, 95 04:41:29 pm Dear Aldon Neilsen: I've heard the Steve Lacey Nine recordings of Bob Creeley's poems. They're wonderful. The recording is called "Futurities". I don't know the label as I only have a taped copy that Bob gave me years ago, but it's well worth tracking down. Do you know "New Music--New Poetry" with Amiri Baraka, David Murray, and Steve McCall? It came out in 1981 from something called India Navigation Comany. A very powerful performance (speaking of power) (what kind of power would that be?) Also, slightly more oblique is Marilyn Crispell's "The Kitchen Concert" where she plays a composition called "What of It I Refuse Awakens the Wide-Eyed Stone" which, though there are no lyrics, is based on the poem of that name by Nathaniel Mackey. I also have heard that Don Byrd is putting together a CD that will include work by John Clarke and Charles Keil from their Bard Song performances. Those are truly awesome. Best, Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 16:23:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Poetry/Jazz In-Reply-To: <199504091754.NAA16611@sarah.albany.edu> from "Michael Boughn" at Apr 9, 95 11:55:48 am Mike to Aldon: "I've heard the Steve Lacey Nine recordings of Bob Creeley's poems. They're wonderful. The recording is called "Futurities". I don't know the label as I only have a taped copy that Bob gave me years ago, but it's well worth tracking down. " The Label is Hat Hut with which Lacy has made a number of recordings. It first came out on vinyl[hat art 2022] (I preferred that one because it had my liner notes) & was recently reissued on cd.[hat ART cd 6032] Check also CLANGS by Lacy's Double Sextet. It includes poems by Appolinaire, Gaston Chaisac, Mario Merz,Kurt Scwitters & Wassily Kandinsky.[hat ART CD 6116]. His MOMENTUM [on NOVUS cd, # 3021-2-N] has songs with poems by Brion Gysin, Abu Nuwas, Herman Melville & Guilia Niccolai! On LIVE AT SWEET BASIL [Novus 63128-2] you can hear PROSSPECTUS, one of the trademark songs of the sextet, with a poem by Blaise Cendrars as well as MORNING JOY, with text by Bob Kaufman. Lacy has written hundred of songs -- in fact I have heard the rumor of 2000! --with poems as lyrics.This is just what comes to hand at the moment. Pierre ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | He who wants to escape the world, translates it. Dept. of English | --Henri Michaux SUNY Albany | Albany NY 12222 | "Herman has taken to writing poetry. You tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | need not tell anyone, for you know how email: | such things get around." joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --Mrs. Melville in a letter to her mother. ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 09:14:04 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: P&P (Prublic&Private) Dear John, I'm happy to backchannel too. I thought what we were talking about backchannel was pertinent to discussions going on elsewhere on the List about private and personal and also what Wystan sd abt Ginsberg's performance of dis-embarrassments. I was following suit there. Why can't you be a person, as "famous" or not as anyone else on the list, as if you don't do a good job on the page and also as a reader? Maybe that got swamped by considerations about Ginsberg's morals. I couldn't get too excited: the British press has better sex scandals. 20 politicians have resigned in three years there. That's a different scale of Power from entertainers and poets visiting (Joyce Carol Oates did that scene over, or do I remember wrong) and finding or expecting groupies. Hell, this isn't 1960's anymore (or 70's), morality has changed a lot. Do you NOT listen to yr old Chuck Berry records, or NOT read Ezra Pound? I couldn't make it out AT ALL. How about you? Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 09:21:03 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: P&P (Prublic&Private) Again: Alex Calder picked me up on that one too. Colin Durning, not Colin McCahon! I was enjoying that fantasy, pity abt the fact of it. I have no idea who is or was Colin Durning, do you, -- or Alex know about him? Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 21:26:10 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jed Subject: Re: Poetry/Jazz In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 9 Apr 1995 11:55:48 -0400 from Lacy's group has done quite a number of text-based performances over th years, but none (that I've heard--but he's recorded so much!) spookier and livelier than Irene Aebi's rendering of Melville's very late poem "Art" (on Lacy's RCA disc "Momentum" from 1987). A few others: Henry Dumas's poem "Black Paladins" on the lp of that title by Art Ensemblists Joseph Jarman & Don Moye, with the late great South Africa bassist Johnny Dyani sitting in; Sonia Sanchez's "A Blk Woman Speaks" on Fred Houn's Afro-Asian Music Ensemble suite "Tomorrow is Now!" (Soul Note, 1985); and I'd add John Carter's final installment of his Roots and Folklore series, "Shadows on a Wall" (Gramavision, 1989) [J.C. also among the greats passed on in recent years--I saw him play many times in L.A. , sometimes in the most casual circumstances, like loft parties, but he was always immensly calm & *on*]. The pieces in "Shadows" are all compositions by Carter himself, & seem to me better integrated with the music than most texts. Sometimes musicians are too disposed to honor the poem by fizzing & hissing sub-sonically in the background, then letting loose when the words are done. That's *not* the case in the new Threadgill Aldon mentioned (was it Aldon?), but that one is so superbly engineered by Bill Lasswell you can practically hear everything, no matter how deeply recessed amidst the 2 tubas, 2 guitars, & 2 drummers. & speaking of words & music: don't forget Cecil Taylor, about whom Chris Funkhouser should have something to add... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 22:42:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Tenure & Jazz In-Reply-To: <9504100430.AA02030@isc.sjsu.edu> Given recent discussions, I must quote the following from Ron's _N/O_: perfect for tenure is the night Since it's night out here, and I'm tenured, let's set this to music and, as Tom Mandel suggests, put the subject to bed. Thanks to everybody for the lists of jazz & text recordings, and please keep them coming. I only knew of about 1/2 of those mentioned so far. Steve Lacy seems to have done more than anybody else on my lists -- He must be even more of a reader than Archie Shepp. Eric Dolphy did an early Town Hall concert with poetry, but I've never seen any ref. to any recording of the evening having been made. If anybody knows anything further about this, let me hear from you. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 23:13:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Spencer Selby Subject: Re: Consent of the governing In-Reply-To: <199504091548.IAA23076@> Ron's Friday post may be various things, but "definitive" is not one of them. I don't believe Ron was even trying to be definitive, which is to his credit. Tom likes to characterize what I am saying, then attack this characterization. "Nominalist" is such a characterization. It only signifies one aspect my concern (an aspect I may have stressed a bit more in the past than I do today). The exchange I had with Tom took place from June '89 to January '90, and it involved approximately ten letters from each of us. This was when Tom lived in San Francisco and when he still referred to me as "Spencer." Needless to say, Tom was not an unwilling participant in this exchange. As I recall, Tom's main frustration was that he couldn't get me to agree with him enough. Tom says the power issue is boring and I say that it is tremendously important. What is boring to me is how averse people are to discussing something that motivates so much of their behavior. This is not about individuals. I never said or implied that it was. Nor am I speaking from books, nor am I speaking out of frustration for myself (I am doing just fine) or some sense of my own marginality. There is no confusion of issues; the issue *is* social/political and that has always been the drift and focus of my concerns. To imagine that the only power relevant to the writing is the power which exists inside the authority of that desire is definitely an illusion. I passionately wish that it was not. I wish that the work was as primary as people want to believe or say it is. I wish that literary politics, who you are and who you know and who you like and who you don't and who likes you and who doesn't, didn't matter so much. To say the reverse, to say that only the power of writing matters, is to say the problem has already been solved, or that it never existed in the first place. Saying this is the best way to make sure that the problem never gets addressed. Saying this is the best way to make sure that a very serious problem only gets worse. Good Morning and Good Night, Spencer Selby On Sun, 9 Apr 1995, Tom Mandel wrote: > Ron's response on the subject of "power", tenure, whatever, in wch > he details his own experience, seems definitive. Truly, I hope > this subject will go away, as it is boring beyond bearing. > > A measure of worthwhile subject surely must be the difference > which may be made by one response or another. Why, in that case, > does this list produce the opposite when it is composed of > intelligent and passionate people committed to the baseline > language art? > > I had a (seeming) endless correspondence more or less onthis > subject in the late 80's or very early 90's with Spencer > Selby who at that time maintained as he seems to wish to continue > to maintain that the poetry world is nominalist; i.e. people > build magazines, booklists, reading series, etc. around > names rather than works. And that this translates into a > kind of power and status which is not an exact mathematical > function of the value of the work currently streaming > (dribbling?) from that source. > > So? Yes, this is true. For one thing, most judgments about > current work have little value in relation to any long-term > assessment. The Cambridge Platonists were the hottest thing > going hundreds of years ago, rather in the way that "theory" > functions now. Read'em lately? For another, it's useless to > think about poets in so immediate a manner. Your work is a > lifelong arc (well, a much more complex shape than that); > its weaknesses, lapses, gaps may contribute to strength. > > Neglect, lack of official endorsement, surely these are > relative; surely too they are a just reward for the restless > and radical desire to write. To imagine that there is a locus > of power relevant to writing that exists outside the authority > of that desire, which is self-permitted and demanded, is > a foolish illusion. Knock long enough at the door of the > one place which you imagine it matters to be published > (i.e. Conjunctions, Sulfur) and no doubt you will be > let in and learn that the place and object associated with > idea and work are strictly irrelevant. Must it not be the > case that the energy invested in imagining the opposite > cd be better invested in re-imagining one's work? Isn't there, > for every one of us, someone who imagines that we have more > power than they? Someone I think is powerful, another who > thinks me so; someone Gary Sullivan imagines to have > more power than he and than is just (I pick Gary as a > random example, not singling him out), and another who > thinks that publisher-poet GS is a figure of the power > position that this other has not attained? > > I studied for years with Hannah Arendt; the two most important > things she taught me were 1) a social/political issue must > not be confused with one that is individual -- one's own > sense of marginality is irrelevant to the issue of how an > institution like poetry marginalizes its participants. > The other... well, this has been a bit stentorious, so I'll > reveal the third thing Hannah Arendt taught me, and this > involves a story. > > For a quarter a small group of students did an intense reading > course with Arendt on 2 works of Marx and Hegel. We worked very > hard, and apparently we were good students, as she said near > the end of the course that she wanted to reward our work by > taking us out to lunch at the Quadrangle club, the faculty > club at the U. of Chicago. It seemed to us, none of whom > had been in this sanctum sanctorum (save, perhaps, one or 2 > of us who bused tables there -- as I did with Paul Butterfield, > but that's another story), that this must signal our > true arrival as intellectuals. > > The day arrived for our lunch, and we sat at an oblong table; > Hannah was at one end, and I had grabbed the other. "Miss > Arendt, Miss Arendt," I cried out -- earnest young intellect > looking for arrival and power that I was -- "let me order > the wine; I've been reading some books about wine." > > Hannah dissolved in laughter; "Tzome tzings (one wd have to > have heard her rolling guttural penetrating voice to > appreciate this I fear), Tohm, tzome tzing we do not learn > from books!" > > That was the most important lesson she taught me. The same > to you. > > Tom Mandel > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 00:55:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Galen Cope Subject: Re: Poetry/Jazz Dear Aldon, Michael Boughn, et al: 'Futurities' by Steve Lacy came out via Hat Hut Records in Switzerland, 1990. Dist- ributed via Tower. Two volumes. Excellent... I've also heard of the Splatter Trio doing a Mackey piece, or a piece based on a Mackey piece, but don't know the details (C. Funkhouser might... -Stephen Cope ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 01:36:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Galen Cope Subject: Re: Poetry/Jazz Forgot to mention: Rumour has it that Nate Mackey himself has a CD due out (soon?) that features Hafez Modirzadeh and (I think) James Norton as collaborators. Again, don't have the details, but apparently its part of a new series... Anyone? -Stephen Cope ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 10:43:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Consent of the governing well i'll be damned... i like the quote aldon nielsen cites from ron's work, and in fact i appreciate the drift of tom's response to spencer to the extent he's exhibiting frustration with a frustrating topic... but something's bugging me about this, folks... aldon, never having made your acquaintance save through your fine book on 'reading race,' something about you're being tenured, and posting it so, has an unfortunate ring of dismissiveness to it (similar to ron's (imho) poor choice of salutations, "posh")... i'm not playing sides here (and i'm not tenured, and i haven't lost my sense of humor), but why is it i'm finding myself cringing at the *tone* of several of these posts?... it's highly unlikely that a topic will 'go away' simply because some folks voice 'boredom' with it... voicing such boredom will in all likelihood sustain the thread (i thought most of you would have understood that by now---and yeah, i'll risk coming off in this assertion as just a wee bit certain in such knowledge)... i don't believe spencer is whining, either... because each post on this topic of 'power' has had the effect of progressively unearthing more information (such as the exchange twixt tom and spencer) that i, and no doubt many others, have not been privy too, it strikes me that there are personal histories and motivations at stake in the convictions being voiced that probably 'explain' the more dismissive gestures... BUT this isn't a justification for same... so why not drop the attitude as much as this is possible? (i'm talking to everybody)... it doesn't help things, esp. because a good portion of the studio audience really is interested in better understanding how these spaces may be used to cultivate a more polysemous poeticsensibility, both personally & politically... joe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 11:49:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Carl Gay Obituary FYI, from A University at Buffalo Press release: ---------------------------------------------------------------- Karl Gay, Former Poetry Curator, Dies "Karl" (Kenneth) Gay, former curator of the University at Buffalo Poetry Collection, died March 26 in Palma, Majorca, at age 83. He was curator from 1968 to 1978 and was secretary to and friend of Robert Graves for thirty years. This relationship provided UB with a sizable collection of Graves' manuscripts and publications. Graves, too, lived on Majorca for many years; he died in 1985. ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 12:08:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Standing but, colleen, isn't the real point simply the difference between poetry and whatever (power) games are played? when words move into that second world they operate as rhetoric, strictly. it's not poetry. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 12:14:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: SEX!, just to get your attention. of course, eric, i can think of a reading that is not a use. the astonishment is that one would ask. it's the sort of thing you ask in classrooms and books. teaching theory (or for that matter simply teaching) one begins: it's not poetry, in any way. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 12:37:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: poeticslist serve and desire yes, sleep there, but don't deny the friends who quarrel: sleep, sleep, and in this silk, the thread will lead you back. there's no remorse in that; the grass, the poet said, is a tongue: i long for green. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 15:10:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Murphy Subject: Physical Reading By way of a too quick response to Ken's question/topic concerning reading and experiencing online versus paper, it's ambivalence that pops up right away. I love the freedom of THIS medium. Seems weightless, so accessible. Yet there's this little bit of mourning as I remember ahead to a time when paper becomes a fossil or quaint curiosity. I'll miss the physicality. SEM ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 15:23:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Murphy Subject: Re: Consent of the governing Joe, you have reminded me of what an uncomfortable topic power can be, and of the way that words can really front for other words we'd just as soon blot out. I don't exempt myself from these tendencies, not at all. You just hit home with what you say, and I appreciate it. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 18:16:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Colleen Lookingbill Subject: Re: Consent of the governing Went to a reading/publishing party for a good new little magazine called Antenym on Sat. and was struck by what the editor Steve Carl had to say in his statement of introduction called "Humanity and Politics": "No longer merely mediating, politics determines how people will stand with regard to each other. Today, politics governs more and more the relations between people, as more and more people become afraid to commit themselves to the attempt at genuine communication, concern and compassion, which all involve listening. To listen is to stand within another's speaking, to move one's viewpoint into the perspective of another, to share experiences. Instead politics provides an easy interpretive grid that allows us to get a handle on people, to identify "where someone is coming from" without having to actually deal with the reality s/he experiences, without having to engage that person's speaking, without having to "expend" or "invest" one's energy actually communicating without the incentive of gain. As politics (which involves the communication of only power relationships between people) holds more sway, humanity is more and more buried by reductive modes of relating, with it buried, politics becomes more and more mean-spirited, if indeed spirit of any kind can be said to be involved." This is taken from the middle of a three page essay, but the point is that others in the poetics field find the power and politics discussion a fertile field - why the impulse to suppress it on this list? Colleen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 19:21:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Colleen Lookingbill Subject: Re: Standing Ed sed: "but, colleen, isn't the real point simply the difference between poetry and whatever (power) games are played? when words move into that second world they operate as rhetoric, strictly. it's not poetry." Yes - yes the poetry is different from the power games and the rhetoric - thank goddess - or we'd all be in deeper than we are now! I don't mistake the poetry for the poet or the rhetoric - as Charles A. said quoting Duncan "important to write as though the poems had the ability to effect the world, even change it, even if one knew, more pragmatically, that such power was either nonexistent or severely limited." somehow I just think if we want our poems to effect the world it would be nice if our behaviours were influenced by that ideal. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 18:49:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Consent of the governing thanks sheila... when i look over my post, i find myself still doing what i'm asking others not to do---i can't even *listen* to myself properly (colleen's point is to the point)... oh i understand it's all a matter of negotiating with these blasted letters (behind and in front and through which are our feelings)... still, i wish i'd used "injudicious" for "poor" in pointing to ron's word choice (and i wish i'd credited him with that "love" at the end of his last post)... and i wish i'd been a bit softer in responding to aldon---i mean, i've never physically met aldon, or ron, or spencer, or gary, or you sheila, or colleen, or any number of (you) folks... it seems we take so much for granted just to be t/here---mebbe this is the way it has to be... and by no means would i try to do away with conflict... but there simply has to be a shared sense that we can enter into our conflicts---publicly, here---with a mutually understood space of generosity... that differences in fact may not even require "argument" as such in order to be constructively engaged or resisted... what's that song by paul simon?... honesty/it's such a waste of energy/ just give me some tenderness/beneath your honesty... i guess i'd like to see all of us striving for both, nothing overly sentimental intended or implied... joe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 20:00:25 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bruce Comens Subject: Re: Poetry/Jazz, Hemphill, etc. In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 9 Apr 1995 11:55:48 -0400 from Mike and others: The Lacy/Creeley CDs are on Hat Art (6031 and 6032) and are available from Cadence, Redwood, NY 13679, (315) 287-2852, along with all the other wonderful material from Hat Art, fmp, etc. Cadence, incidentally, is well worth the subscription if you're at all interested in "creative improvised music," as they call it. Also Cage, Feldman, Scelsi, etc. I heard the Julius Hemphill saxophone sextet (actually a septet, with Julius soloing occasionally from his wheelchair) last fall. The first set was one of the most thrilling sets I've ever heard, and the second damn near as good. And I still recall just how astonished I was when I first heard "The Hard Blues" on the Coon Bidness LP back in the 70s, that mix of Texas "gutbucket" blues and a smart "avant-garde" edge. So sad to know there'll be no more such news, that we've lost that intelligence.... To whoever (sorry to have forgotten) was interested in jazz/poetry mixes: I believe Cecil Taylor and Clark Coolidge performed together a while back in NYC. I heard Coolidge read the piece later, but without, alas, Cecil. Perhaps it's on tape?--in which case I'd love to get a copy. Hope this proves useful. Bruce Comens P.S.: Cadence is much cheaper than buying from Tower, etc. And a "good cause" as well. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 17:32:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Joron Subject: poetry & neo-chamber music Poetry & jazz has become almost a "canonical" synthesis, still a potent one of course (witness Lacy, etc.). Is there a tradition of contemporary poems set to music other than jazz? I've come across a single speciman, on Crammed Discs, a Belgian label specializing in new music/ambient/neo- chamber music: _When God Was Famous_, a 1989 release with texts by Paul Celan, Apollinaire, Gottfried Benn, Paul Eluard, Delmore Schwartz, and Bob Kaufman, and music by Samy Birnbaum & Benjamin Lew. I'd be interested to learn of other recordings of extra-jazz poetry. Andrew Joron ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 00:05:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Dinner Is Served X-To: poetics@UBVMS.BITNET There will be a dinner right after Lydia Davis's reading. We will go somewhere near UB. Let me know if you are able to come. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 19:38:42 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 9 Apr 1995 to 10 Apr 1995 In-Reply-To: <9504110404.AA01213@uhunix4.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu> To Aaron Joron--Here are just a few perhaps evident examples of poetry set to music other than jazz. There's Elliot Carter's setting of Ashbery's "Syringa" (along with 3 poems by Frost) on Bridge Records; Philip Glass's "Hydrogen Jukebox," with Ginsberg reading and others singing (thankfully!) on Elektra Nonesuch; Oliver Knussen's setting of Rilke (and Winnie the Pooh) on Virgin; a two cd tribute to John Cage, which includes work by Jackson MacLow and Anne Tardos, as well as Frank Zappa's rendition of 4'33" (with photo of the performer and appropriately no bio); John Cale's "Fragments of a Rainy Season," with its use of Dylan Thomas; and "The Subject" and "Blind Witness News," operas by Ben Yarmolinsky with librettos by Charles Bernstein. I believe I passed up a Lou Harrison cd that's relevant to your interests, but can't recall. We're off the Hallmark trail, but I must report how horrified I was today as I looked to buy a card for a former colleague (in his early 40s) who's been institutionalized for early onset Alzheimers. The two genres seemed to be jokes to the effect that "you're losing your mental faculties, aren't you?" or "life gets better with age." Cruel. Susan Schultz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 19:12:09 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland Subject: Re: Consent of the governing X-To: HUMAMATO@MINNA.ACC.IIT.EDU Dear Joe, Well, we'll all be damned. Some say they're bored and they adopt a tone, but these are just their effete ways of trying to suppress a necessary debate, a confrontation with the real issues, of refusing to acknowledge their fear of communication, of honesty, of lets face it their corruption--I know I come from New Zealand. They have been touched by power, we all have, we are all, all of us, miserable stinking sinners. Let us confess, let us come before the Lord and say, yes Lord, I edited a small magazine. I want you to know when I say 'small,' that's just because it wasn't mainstream. You know what I mean by, mainstream? It wasn't without influence i have to say ... Wystan. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 01:54:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Poetry/Jazz In-Reply-To: <199504092026.NAA12189@whistler.sfu.ca> from "Pierre Joris" at Apr 9, 95 04:23:11 pm Works the other way round, too. There were rumours years ago of all the poems that Cecil Taylor has/had written. F'rinmstance. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 02:24:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: The West In-Reply-To: <199503282109.NAA07790@whistler.sfu.ca> from "Ryan Knighton" at Mar 28, 95 09:45:06 am While you are looking at "westerns" or recent times, dont forget Jerome Charyn's novel about Buffalo Bill. I forget the title right now. It is as good as Ishmael Reed, I think. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 02:32:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: what does it do? In-Reply-To: <199503250104.RAA15487@whistler.sfu.ca> from "cris cheek" at Mar 24, 95 08:32:15 pm Poetry loosens my thighs. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 12:30:43 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Dr L.A. Raphals" Subject: Re: poetry & neo-chamber music In-Reply-To: Do you know Faure's settings of Verlaine, among others? Also settings of Rilke and Stevens (?) by Robert Cogan, and of Williams by Steve Reich (Desert Music) Lisa Raphals On Mon, 10 Apr 1995, Andrew Joron wrote: > Poetry & jazz has become almost a "canonical" synthesis, still a potent > one of course (witness Lacy, etc.). Is there a tradition of contemporary > poems set to music other than jazz? I've come across a single speciman, > on Crammed Discs, a Belgian label specializing in new music/ambient/neo- > chamber music: _When God Was Famous_, a 1989 release with texts by Paul > Celan, Apollinaire, Gottfried Benn, Paul Eluard, Delmore Schwartz, and > Bob Kaufman, and music by Samy Birnbaum & Benjamin Lew. I'd be interested > to learn of other recordings of extra-jazz poetry. > Andrew Joron > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 21:52:11 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland Subject: Re: Dinner Is Served X-To: BERNSTEI%UBVMS.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu Dear Charles, Thanks, I'm hungry. I'll do my level best to be there. Could we make it somewhere between UB and AU? If not, have a hearty, love Wystan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 13:16:07 WET Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "I.LIGHTMAN" Subject: Re: sexual harassment Phew, I've just been away in London for the weekend, primarily to attend a meeting of the two rival camps in avant-garde British poetry, the London school and the Cambridge school. There were ten readers, eight of whom were men doing second hand Zukofsky (Londoners) or second-hand J.H.Prynne (the Cambridge people), two women, one a brilliant formalist who can only continue to get bookings if she does erotica, and one very bathetic and confessional. One of the Cambridge people got up to read "parodies of Language Poetry" which were quite simply pathetic, and rhythmically and grammatically much closer to Prynne, not remotely knowledgeable about LangPo; I felt like they must have felt thirty years ago if they'd attended an avant-garde meeting where someone did pathetic parodies of Olson and Ashbery, and then did stale Eliotisms themselves! There was no active sexual harassment, just an absolutely stifling dominating maleness, no attempt to engage or involve the small handful of women who'd come, nearly all as friends of readers; and plenty of young male bards in their twenties happy to sell you their work or magazines full of yet more Prynne and Zukofsky. I agree with the many on this list who've said "well, start up your own movement, readings, presses", but problems abound, as the history of this very list will show. How do you advertise without getting lots of people who just want to be at the event to sneer at post-structuralism and post-modernism and accuse you of not giving a damn about race, sex, politics or indeed AIDS (thanks, Kevin, for your great posting on this subject), and then won't listen when you say you've cared about these things all along. The thing is, surely, that people, certainly in this country, fall into avant-garde poetry, usually through liking someone's style who's into it (and bell hooks may want to think of this as sexual, but there's a buzz out of friendship, laughter, fun, too) - or, even, through seeing, a la Platonism, the possibilities of perfect avant-garde poerty through the flawed manifestation of the very well-read interesting lecher who teaches the poetry course at college, or runs the local gallery, or sells you software. That's the fact, on the ground-level, of how people get into avant-garde poetry. Then there is a responsibility, before God if you like, to educate and above all *free* that newcomer to become the best avant-gardist they can be, not what you can channel them into. Of course, I would prefer to go to the US and hang out with Juliana Spahr and Kevin and Dodie and Gary Sullivan, but while I'm stuck in the UK on work commitments, I experience what I'm describing, and get angry and want (reasonable) reforms. So just a few marginalia: Ron, I really like you defense of the experiences you've got, the places you've read, by staying to your thing. Ed, I loved what you said about Lacan; Poe seems a better judge of human nature, and the subtleties of real detection work, than Lacan. But, Ed, I hated your talk show crack against Andrew, it just seemed really patronising because, Andrew, you made some great points. I really liked everything, Colleen, you've been posting. I think this generalising, sometimes waffling, offshoot discussion about power in general has produced redeeming moments (I love the idea of writing poetry *as if* it was powerful, it's why I think "talk show" idealising is great and vital) but you, Colleen, and you, Gary, have continually brought us back to te the very real power exercised that intimidates and sometimes abuses those moving in these circles, Ira ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 15:24:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Knowledge & empowerment (long) Dear Joe: Thank you for that post; you're right about tone, and I think I've been as bad as anyone else in that respect, maybe worse. I'll try to "tone it down" as they say. When you're young &/or are new to something, you tend to have a lot of illusions about things. Spencer doesn't sugar-coat anything, doesn't deny his own standing, doesn't tell younger poets it's beneath the lofty goal of "Poet" to want their work published. (If he did tell us that, it'd be like lecturing a bunch of kids at a busstop out his car window on how much better it was for the environment, as well as for their character, that they were taking public transportation.) He's not unique in this respect, but he's rare enough. In my experience, he has been one of few older poets who has consistently made time for me -- not to mention every other younger poet (there are a lot of them) who shows up at his door, or write him. I used to believe that if you knocked on doors long enough, you'd eventually be let in. More often, I've found, the door is never answered. No big deal, but to know that in advance -- and to have some understanding of why this is the case -- may save the newbie a lot of unnecessary heartache. It helps, I think, for younger publishers to know just what is required to be carried by SPD, and I don't think it's beneath anyone interested in poetry to want their new press carried by SPD. You have to know someone there, and they have to like you. If you don't, or they don't, you'll have to be publishing at least two perfectbound books a year. (Their "written" policy.) Even that's no guarantee -- they have limited shelf space, after all. A real guarantee would be to publish someone of the standing of Susan Howe, Alice Notley, or Ron Silliman. I don't know if Rochelle Owens is someone "of the standing" to guarantee SPD access -- after all, Susan Smith Nash's Texture Press published a "selected" of Owens' poetry, and I don't think that press has still managed to get in through the door. (I think the people at SPD have to either believe the books will sell, or one of them has to be a fan of at least one of the people you're publishing, or you have to have someone on your side like Charles Bernstein or Kathleen Fraser, someone with "pull" there, talking them into taking you on; otherwise, don't get your hopes up.) That's probably boring to most of us on this list -- or maybe even inflammatory to some -- but potentially useful information for those people who don't have it. Perhaps equally boring, equally inflammatory, but also equally useful, is understanding how books get published in the U.S. The younger poet can forget presses the size of Coffee House Press. I worked there for a few months and their poetry list is filled until 1998, and there isn't anyone included on that list you haven't heard of. Things won't change in 1998 -- when they'll be booked until 2002 with similar things. Like the lobbying that goes on on Capitol Hill, such a thing as grant-lobbying in the U.S. exists. Because Charles Alexander was nice enough to extend an invite to Marta and myself, we got to attend (more observe) a dinner sponsored by the billionaire Cowles family and the largest nonprofit literary organizations in Minnesota. Marta and my press, Detour, was not represented; neither was Charles Alexander's Chax Press. (Charles was there under the auspices of the Minnesota Center for Book Arts, where he is Executive Director, and we were there as guests of the MCBA. I don't know how Charles feels, but Marta & I felt that, had it not been for Charles, we wouldn't have been allowed by these people to "exist," at least not in that instance.) The dinner was for Gigi Bradford, the Head or whatever of the NEA's Literature Program. The reason for this dinner was two-fold: Gigi was there to both warn and "pump up" the various nonprofits & their boards with respect to impending cuts. The organizations were there, mostly, to ask that their funding not get cut, that cuts be made w/respect to smaller organizations and individuals. (Or, so I was told by Allan Kornblum, Coffee House's editor.) As funding dries up in this country, it will be individual poets/writers and the smaller small presses who will lose most. This has, and will continue, to happen. Consequently, it is the emerging writers who are, ultimately, cut off from funding. Younger poets and publishers, as this happens, please try not to take too seriously people who tell you it's beneath your calling as "Poet" or "Poetry publisher" to be concerned about this, if it indeed concerns you. (I've seen no similar chastising of the NEA-watch material on this list -- which seems very odd to me. Why single newbies out for tsk-tsking & you-should-be-above-that?) So. Most smaller presses won't be able to publish your work, either. Potes & Poets has already closed its doors to younger writers; Peter Ganick wants to be able to sell what books he does publish. Ed's Talisman Books, unlike his _Talisman_ magazine, is similarly not open to younger poets, and for the very same reason. (Since Ed doesn't apply for grants, he has to be more concerned about sales.) Neither Ed nor Peter, nor me for that matter, can publish everything we like. We can't even publish *most* of what we like. Consequently, it is more often than not the younger or unestablished poets who lose out. Some poets learn that the surest way to get your book published is to help pay for part or all of the production costs. This is, I would imagine, how at least 1/3rd to 1/2 of all poetry books in the U.S. get published. I base that only on the kinds of cover letters I receive, and from talking to various poets who have paid to have their books published, and talking to various publishers who have accepted money from poets to help pay for books. There is nothing wrong with this, and I don't bring it up to make anyone feel bad. (I think the general stigma attached to self- publishing is short-sighted.) It's information. Use it, those of you who can. Well, there is something wrong with it, actually, though it isn't anyone's fault. What happens, I think -- and this is why this discussion is about much more than personalities -- what happens is that the poets who do not have any money simply do not have any choice, here. This is an issue that concerns me because if books = access to readers (& they, of course, do) a socio-economic class in the U.S. is systematically being underrepresented. I joke with friends about the proliferation of what I call "homeowner-class" poetry. It's a silly joke, it's a silly (not terribly accurate) definition. But there are reasons why we see a lot of certain kinds of writing, and not so much of a somewhat different kind of writing. We don't see much of Daniel Davidson's writing, not in book form, anyway, because he's on SSI/Medical Assistance, can't afford to "chip in" for his next book; can't afford to make 100 copies of his own work, even if he wanted to. (Dan was one of the last people to get a book published through Zasterle before Manuel Brito began telling people he could no longer afford to publish w/out author subsidy, a very lucky break for Dan.) Dan happens to be someone who, because of his economic situation, sees "class background" as "landscape." (There are people who don't.) Ira, you and others on this list know that he's neither reductive nor soapboxy about that, at least not in his poetry -- it's not merely a "poetry of complaint." But, it does come out of a very different set of concerns, & from a very different point-of-view, than the work of, say, Charles Bernstein, or for that matter, Spencer Selby. One of the reasons we don't see much poetry like Dan's might be -- and this is just a guess made from having considered how poetry books get printed in this country -- because the people writing most of it simply do not have access to various presses because they don't have, simply put, any money. Douglas Messerli's comment in the intro to his Sun & Moon Anthology, that he "decided against" poetry with more political/social concerns in favor of poetry more concerned with issues of aesthetics and technique (to paraphrase), reflects the current situation in the U.S., at least among "avant- garde" or "experimental" or "exploratory" publishers, with this type of writing. Now, obviously, very reductive political/social- concern writing will get published, because it's a frequent "grant" winner. Grant agencies love that stuff, but it has to hit 'em over the head. Meaning, it can't be that *and* aesthetically challenging, too. What the largest nonprofits give us on this level is, to cite a recent example, Coffee House Press's _Atomic Ghost_. (Thumb through it; it's in stores.) As a reader, *I* am denied access to material like Dan's, except in cases where I happen to know the poet, and can request a manuscript, or in those very rare cases when their work does happen to get published. I'm sure there's a lot else out there I haven't seen. I doubt I'll live to see much of it, even though I make it my business to hunt it out. Kevin's concern that there hasn't been any discussion of AIDS or HIV on this list, Mark Nowak's and others' concerns that there has been little discussion of nonwhite traditions, these are not merely complaints, but recognitions of what (very easily) is allowed to slip through the cracks when people don't concern themselves much with the WHY. That's my opinion, anyway. So, what happens? I think that by ignoring all of the above, one can very easily fall into the illusion that what is being published is not only "the best" or "most relevant" of what's being written today, but even eventually believe that there isn't anything else out there. Certainly most academics -- and you in academia have a better sense whether this is true or not -- don't have or take the time to really do more than explore what is readily available, already "talked up," almost always published, "professionally," when making assessments of contemporary writing. Some do, but not most. Consequently, college students get a skewed idea of what's being done today, what's *really* possible. I know, from having gone to college, that I had, then, a really bogus sense of not only what contemporary writing was, but even what it might be. (I don't have a complete sense today, of course, but I have a much better sense.) According to my college education, gay men & women didn't really exist, were sort of overall unimportant, & the same was not only true of nonwhite cultures & traditions, but of the lower classes as well. Pretty much only straight, white, educated-class, mostly males, were -- so one would assume from the types of books we were given to read -- the only people in the world who put two or more thoughts together. That didn't "just happen." I hear things are changing in colleges since I've been there; good. Joe, & others, I don't know if any of the info or opinions above will prove useful to you. It's just one person's experience & opinions, after all. I hope you and others do, and continue to, look beyond pre-existing channels for new writing -- including (obviously) within yourselves. Knowledge & information is power. Everyone's entitled to it. It's not beneath you. Yours, Gary ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 09:47:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Standing it's nice to think that poetry might/could effect the world, but as spicer pointed out in that anguished talk at the berkeley conference shortly before his death, poetry simply hasn't/doesn't. as they say, poetry has nothing to do with politics. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 14:57:44 WET Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "I.LIGHTMAN" Subject: Re: poetry & neo-chamber music There's also Pierre Boulez's "settings" of Rene Char, which don't have any words, but feel full of Char's verbal energy. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 15:46:58 WET Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "I.LIGHTMAN" Subject: Jack Spicer Perhaps one way into some issues around sex, privacy and also power, is a few observations on Spicer. Ed has quoted him a few times, and Ron's essay on him in the New Sentence was one utterly marvellous thing to thank the limited publicity there is around Ron's name for; it certainly sent me away to read Spicer for the first time (even though he was one of the few interesting poets who had been on my university library shelves all along). I adore Spicer's rhythm, and his mordant wit, and, actually, his Romanticism. Anyway, there was a short article on "San Fransisco Poetry" last year in an academic periodical (I've spent my lunch hour trying to find it, but I couldn't), which I remember reading; and it literally believed it was dealing with the whole topic of its title, by quoting a famous incident where Spicer read his poem "for Joe" at a public reading, and incensed Denise Levertov (have I remembered this right, anyone?) with his line about "the female genital organ is hideous", so that Levertov wrote a response poem, which the article published, and for the reviewer that about wrapped it up for San Fransisco, dumb town, end of story. The Spicer poem begins with the hardly self-flattering language "People who don't like the smell of faggot vomit / Will never understand why men don't like women". There is such formality, like a syllogism, about this opening, a little Socratic hint (since some men *do* like women) that Spicer is operating a ferocious/ ruthless speculation on an outrageous/offensive proposition; it seems perfectly possible to reverse the terms and write "people who like the female genital organ / will not agree"; it just doesn't seem a totalising proposition "all people agree with me", but, precisely, anti-totalising. But that doesn't explain away the offensiveness, for the collaboration with stereotypes of stigmatising the female body and encouraging/going alonf g with violence against women. Certainly, there is mock violence against fellow gay men, by using the word "faggot", and one could let Spicer have argued that this thus makes the violence against women mock violence. But as the article argued well, the way that Spicer read this poem, encouraging the laughter of a predominantly gay male audience (but, Kevin Killian, esteemed biographer of Spicer, please set me right if this is wrong), and not noticing (or noticing and enjoying) the way this aggravated the discomfort that the visitor Levertov was experiencing. This incident (unless the article got it wrong) does bring up some themes for me. Was there a way, any way, for Levertov to have entered into this moment, since the self-deprecating by Spicer was offset by the clear solidarity in the room, and the misognyist deprecating amplified by the room? Could she have found a poem to write that would have mocked the room right back at them, and thus endeared all to all? I'd really love anyone's ideas, and historical back-up, on this: are there examples of female artists being able/allowed to tease such a circle and maybe even sober them a little; or does one see instead outsiders, or a new generation, of female and gay male writers co-founding a new circle, in which such "fish" jokes are not the norm, and cannot be so comfortably made, as in the Spicer anecdote. I raise all this because I also want to think about public and private. I have had a lot of discussions with fellow bisexuals where, in one case by a friend in front of her male partner, the person will offer humour-intending caricatures of the bodies of a (usually the more socially expected) gender they don't currently fancy, compared to the bodies of a gender they currently do. In fact, using very similar terms to Spicer's poem: as if there were, which there sometimes is, a slight pull towards one gender which is so much accentuated by desire for conformity/easy life that you need to counter it in order to give both genders a fair chance. But then again there's plenty of people who categorically desire only one gender; who, to quote the great Craig Owens (also lost to AIDS), take great offense at being told, a la Freud, that homophobia is an expression always of repressed homosexual desire, as if the common experience wasn't in fact unphobic, unheldback, unabashed homosexual desire. To explain then: I guiltily, and harmlessly I think, enjoy this private attempts at humour by unfair caricature; but I hate all the public exclusions at readings and in workplaces etc. I think of Spicer as private to me, because so few read him here, and because I discovered him through Language Poetry, which seems hidden and private in British poetry culture (also, of course, caricatured and found hideous by those who don't like the smell of it, to allude back to the Spicer poem). I almost want Spicer to stay private, not often read (or as Ron says in his essay, appropriated by many who don't seem to actually enjoy his words/poetic at all, so I have a kind of private "genuine" worship as compared to mere fans). I think all these things need more spelling out. I'm partly writing this in order to respond, Ed, to your justifiable "if this is a heterosexual space then I'm a talking mule" one-liner. As I said to Kevin before, I try not to catch up things I don't want to say in my rhetoric; what I and Gary have been saying is not essential (part of the DNA) of either age or heterosexuality, and I'd prefer, if it weren't so eyecatching, to talk about power not terms like "heterosexual space". But, then again, as soon as we've all started talking just about "power", we're no longer talking about abusive and excluding unethical behaviour by poets and circles, which was the topic I used my eyecatching language to bring up, and at least it *got* a little brought up that way, which it isn't doing talking about power per se. It remains the case that only parts of poetic culture talk about sex in detail and with scrutiny of issues of power of the sorts Gary and Colleen and I have been raising; and Mirage Periodical, a gay and lesbian periodical, tends to go for the detail and scrutiny I want, in the ways I've described. I realize you're a very busy and valuably productive man, Ed, as Gary has been saying, but I'd love to see you write something long taking on some of these points more; I think I know, like my reading of Spicer, how to take your wit and not assume you're Clarence Thomas; but, in this# context, it feels un-nerving, rather than thought-provoking (although I've let this effort at least be provoked), Ira ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 22:04:50 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland Subject: Re: Consent of the governing X-To: HUMAMATO@MINNA.ACC.IIT.EDU Dear Joe, I've just read yours to sheila, such a sweet post, and you probably ain't got mine yet so I feel so BAD, having written to you the way I did. There are several other postings to which it might have just as well been a response, I guess. On the other hand, as I said to Gary, when it comes to the personal I got wurries, and he didn't seem to see what I was saying about transparence? Know what I mean? love Wystan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 08:49:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Love me tenure In-Reply-To: <9504111425.AB18541@isc.sjsu.edu> OK, so my pun was worse than Ron's; My ref. to putting the "subject" to bed was meant to be a bad joke in response to Tom's response to Spencer's response to Ron, etc. As my earlier posts indicate, I do not in fact believe there's much, if any, point in trying to tell people they shouldn't care about the issues Spencer and others have raised. My last (not in the sense of terminal, I trust) post was intended to underscore what others have said about those with some modicum of power desiring to change the subject when that form of power is under discussion. As someone who is "tenured" in the usual sense, it would be stupid of me to pretend this makes no difference to the way that I participate in the discussion. Indeed, one of the benefits of tenure is that I am now much more vocal in my opposition to the exploitation of nontenured faculty than I was when I had to worry about my opposition possibly endangering my own job (a form of cowardice probably familiar to many). In my messages this past week, I've been trying to register a mild irritation at the use of the academic metaphor in this context. Ron, of course, is not tenured anywhere and was right to point out that fact. On the other hand, those of us who have never had a perfect-bound book of poems published by any press may find the remarks about never being published twice in succession by the same press to be something of an evasion. Spencer is clearly right about one thing; having a "name" opens doors, though they may not be the most inviting doors to pass through. I've told my students for years that the single best way to get your work published (other than going through an MFA program & joining the tenured) is to become a publisher. This fact, once known, will cause other editors to read your work more closely than they had before. I know of at least ten poets who have attested to this phenomenon. As someone who has published books of criticism, I am now able to get a hearing at academic presses. However, that carries no weight whatsoever with poetry publishers. Likewise, though I'm tenured and published, I work at one of the last universities in the country that still has a four course per semester teaching load, and have only once in my career been invited to speak at a conference. As someone once remarked to me, teaching at a "non-research" university means that you don't exist for those in the more prestigious colleges. This is not entirely true, but it feels true to most of my colleagues. This parallels the situation we see in the past week's discussion in an odd way. My friends in the UC system don't like to think that they have any power; my friends in the CSU system think the UC people have all the power. I'm wandering, but here's the point I want to get to. When Foucault says that power is everywhere, he does not seem to imply that power is always and everywhere the same. We all have power, and we are all subjected to/by power. Our analyses should be directed toward specific descriptions of the forms of power we exercise and experience, and how they can be altered. That discussion is the one I'd rather be having, as opposed to a back and forth about whether or not poet X or poet Y is more powerful/publishable/willing to acknowledge power. I'll try to get back with something more coherent when I'm not running to class. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 10:57:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: braman sandra Subject: poetry and jazz Novelist and short story writer Douglas Woolf wrote a book of poems entitled GOD'S TEAGARDEN, each poem written to the music of specific jazz musicians. North Carolina Wesleyan will publish it if I ever get it edited.... Sandra Braman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 10:35:39 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: eric pape Subject: Re: SEX!, just to get your attention. In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 10 Apr 1995 12:14:23 -0500 from My mistake Ed. I forgot we were talking about poetry, not books. Eric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 09:42:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lindz Williamson Subject: personal In-Reply-To: <199504081805.LAA16976@unixg.ubc.ca> I am interested in the sexing of poetry. Remember that WIttig says that language is gender neutral, but immediately says that to say that is relatively meaningless because we are gendered and thus gender everything else. I am interested in this proccess of gendering, and how it is essentially about fictions, it seems to me. This I think has enormous implications for how we read and how we write. Implications that have not been explored in poetry. Thanks, Eric. Gendering of langauge, especially english isn't totally visible when you right from a male view point. We have been trained to accept the first person male narrative as the norm. POst modernism is breaking this down but the gender bias is still there. Eventhough English is supposively a neuter langauge the Proto Indo European roots of its nature are not. The gender difference has been ingrained. I find it most obvious in cultural distinction of what are considered male dialogue words and accepted words for female female conversation. Similar occurrances appear in poetry as the reader tries to identify voice. Words are accepted when used by one sex, but taken in offense when use by the other. i find this intriguiging if langauge is to be nuetral. I have to go but I have more to say, Lindz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 13:30:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Juliana Spahr Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: new from Leave Books N E W F R O M L E A V E B O O K S Leave books are available by subscription for $15=20 (includes all the books we will do this year) or=20 the complete backlist is available for $100=20 (see our listing at the Electronic Poetry Center archive)=20 or they can be bought individually for $4 each.=20 Please make any checks payable to the UB Foundation.=20 Leave Books are edited by Jennifer Karmen, Kristin Prevallet, Juliana Spahr, and Marta Werner. P.O. Box 786 Buffalo, NY 14213 This year's subscription includes: Sonet, Marten Clibbens Two Sections from Giscome Road, C. S. Giscombe The Passion of Signs, Barbara Henning Santa, Kevin Killian Omen For a Birthday: Unravelled Poems, Cynthia Kimball Psychoanalysis of Oedipus, Ira Lightman Figures for a Hypothesis (Suite), Mark McMorris My Novel, Sianne Ngai Recant: (a revision), Randall Potts Cool Clean Chemistry and Rx, Kim Rosenfield Brief author descriptions and brief excerpts from each book follow. * * * Sonet by Marten Clibbens Marten Clibbens lives in Buffalo. This book is a collection of sonnet= s. One for nDc Which, for love's book, wreathed is a %romance of the vanished;% --Lyn Hejini= an recreant, blessed without secret, not an eye but veil the foreign client in its glass detained for reading, when, to write? An intermittent witness to concealing with revealing exchanged: as if the fled wish of third person in sleep and watching both resigned to a dappled trail of leaves not there, here, nor where but his or her remains to seem for whose book, then, to keen? Buffalo Autumn Equinox 1994 * * * Two Sections from Giscome Road by C.S. Giscombe C.S. Giscombe lives in Indiana but right now he is living near=20 Giscome Canada (the location of this book). This is a long poem. (3 Gentlemen) The %district's% bounded by watersheds =96the Clearwater & Upper Fraser, the Fraser & Canoe Rivers s s=96 & by the Alberta border & the watershed of the Parsnip & Finlay Rivers wch itself is %a continuation of the Columbia R. valley% continuing northerly to the Yukon R. valley & %at Giscome% %the valley of the Fraser leaves this valley & turns almost due south= =96% "To further his ends," sd Fr. Morice, "[Dunlevy] established a post at Giscome Portage, a section of land named after a man he had for some time=20 in his employ as cook." But Rev. Runnalls gets to the point: "To further his trade w/ the nat= ives=20 he established a number of outposts, one of wch was at Giscome Portag= e,=20 a place wch was named for a negro cook in Dunlevy's employ." (And Mr. Gauvreau:=20 %"The Fraser River at Giscome Portage is a noble stream=96"% the %portage% through wch to step further in or through wch to come through groups of people eating =96continuous, no end in sight: yet to be come to in the nomenclature, in the geography further on * * * The Passion of Signs by Barbara Henning Barbara Henning lives in New York and edits Long News in the Short Ce= ntury.=20 The Passion of Signs is a collection of short poems. A PASSPORT TO PARADISE (With wrinkled hands crossing off what evidence she never wants him to read) she tacks up flowered curtains and decorative wallpaper, serves basil and tomatoes. To the burden of the present she responds with a rush of aromatic heat--how beautiful the boundless forest. Robin, Robin mine! Think him tenderly on a cool night after WBGD has played Nina Simone for an hour. Clear moonlight rearranged with a breeze =66rom the east. A mild nervous disorder. This spot comfortable, one cigarette after another-- The other an unsettled, wide and cluttered cavern between the written world and my inability to speak-- * * * Santa by Kevin Killian Kevin Killian lives in San Francisco. This is a rare piece of fiction= =20 =66rom Leave books. I'll be writing two stories at the same time, but think of this as no= "New=20 Narrative" trick but as a kind of Victorian novel in miniature. Three= =20 stories really, because I've stretched out Brad Gooch's "Satan," as o= ne=20 might stretch a canvas before hitting the palette. In "Satan," a phot= ographer,=20 Eddie, so badly abuses his black model that even his rich white patro= ns,=20 who like abuse to a certain point, start to drop him. This causes him= to=20 see the light and to change his ways. Reading the story you can't hel= p but=20 think you're getting a close-up of the home life of our dear Robert M= applethorpe.=20 * * * Omen For a Birthday: Unravelled Poems by Cynthia Kimball Cynthia Kimball is a poet who currently lives in Buffalo.=20 This is a broadside=20 and a section of it cannot be reproduced=20 here because of the limitations of ascii. * * * Psychoanalysis of Oedipus by Ira Lightman Ira Lightman lives in England. This is a collection of poems around= =20 ideas of psychoanalysis. not all want to kill their father half as much as I do, roseanne arnold effaces freud with a single more sensible motive: vengeance around a small pantheon of names conversations gather, as if named were the inventors and conduits of ideas unique until they were popular but also prepared to be so, freud not effaced, he's discussed * * * Figures for a Hypothesis (Suite) by Mark McMorris Mark McMorris is a poet who lives in Providence R.I. This book is= =20 a long poem. 1. How far did we travel? Till heart dried up. Where did we start from? A plan. Where are we now? Morningside. Aix. Mona. What can words do that we haven't done? Make a place. Then we can stop. What is this place, if not a place to stop? The yard is a loom; we begin with it. To return? To begin again? The model makes room for a setting out. Why did we set out? To get to a dialect. Will there be one? We know, after going through it, that there is. Who else comes with us? The yard is common: slave, poet, black. And things? Do things go with us? Bowl, fountain, vase, bird call, mirror, pigeon, cello, gravel, bed. How did we choose what to take? The yard gave them when we set out. And people? There are two of us on the trip. Who is the slave? A poet. Who is the poet? A black. Who is the black? * * * My Novel by Sianne Ngai Sianne Ngai currently lives in the Boston area. She attended Brown,= =20 now she attends Harvard. This book is something between poetry and pr= ose. Chapter 1 Protagonist I signed the forms, mailed them, and became credible. Here,=20 among the dendrites. Several witnesses were able to describe=20 what I was wearing. But the light did not assure the connection=20 of neurons in a continuous fabric, even with two seeds in the same= =20 plant. Sex was "weak property." Not a memory, but a dotted line=20 between cells, persuaded me to declare my visibility at the border. The building I stay in, for example, invents its eastern face and wes= tern=20 face for the grammatical trees which surround it. My lamp deterritori= alizes=20 by forming an image, a tracing of a window, but the window=20 reterritorializes on that image. It could be said that the lamp imita= tes the=20 window. It has a side facing the molecular. Many birds imitate the songs of other species. But imitation may not = be=20 the best concept for these phenomena. Female birds, which do not=20 normally sing, start singing when they are administered male sex horm= ones,=20 and they will sing the song of the species on which they have become= =20 imprinted. The song signals from a distance all members of its specie= s=20 that the territory has found a name. * * * Recant: (a revision) by Randall Potts Randall Potts lives in San Francisco. Recant: (a revision) is a serie= s=20 of poems that have quotes from the 17th century religious/sexual/ political movement called the Ranters and Senator Jesse Helms. 1. Brisk travel to approximate a scurrilous text Locations designated by letters sorted and discarded Here and there summer passing at the same latitude Chronology as a catalogue of time as events Spaces to accommodate a body but walled over Any interpretation decorative thus speculative To attach description like counting them Time expressed visually as numerous available routes As a map the letter was useless * * * Cool Clean Chemistry and Rx by Kim Rosenfield Kim Rosenfield lives in New York. This book contains two=20 books in one wrapper. THE OLD SNAKE STORY Some people think that fish is a brain food and that a mackerel will convert a moron into an Einstein %The average man looks for something beyond.% Some people believe that warts can be removed by tying knots in a string and burying the string at a crossroads, in the moonlight. %I have seen a multimillionaire seriously expectorate into his palm a= nd splatter saliva far and wide at the passing of a white horse.% Some people believe that if you drink from a garden hose, you may get a snake in your interior. %hard cheese and celery should be thoroughly chewed.% Some people believe that if you break out with pimples or boils, it's just the meanness erupting. %A live piscatory specimen in one's stomach is not an enjoyable compa= nion.% Some people believe that poker players try to improve their luck by rubbing the hump of a hunchback. %"without phosphorus, there is no thought"% Some people think that medicine can't be good unless it has an=20 odor like that of a pole cat. %An X-Ray examination finally showed that she had swallowed an octopus egg, which had hatched inside her anatomy.% Some people think that it is possible to take an eye out, wash it, and put it back. [end] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 13:11:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Knowledge & empowerment (long) gary, great letter, and yes---it's "useful knowledge," even taken as an emotional appeal against exclusionary practices... me, i've always been aware of the class issue, owing to my background, but that hasn't been enough in itself to correct my myopia as a teen in central new york in the seventies regarding all sorts of other issues---gender, race, sexual orientation... these latter terms aren't simply buzz words if taken aright-- they're daily commitments, daily challenges... and our systems of publishing and distribution (to bring the point specifically back to the issues you're raising) reflect lapses, oversights, motivations, and prejudices against precisely such a grid... thanks for taking the time to post such a searching missive... all best/// joe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 14:10:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Howard Shoemaker Subject: audio sources I've been happy to see all the jazzpo sourcings lately, and it's made me want to ask people to post info on what sources they know about for audio-recordings of poetry in general. So please do! thanks, steve ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 08:36:33 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Dinner Is Served OK Charles, thanks, it's 12 April here, what time is it with you. But I won't be eating, I've just had breakfast. Enjoy yr meal, bananas wd be nice, but, no baloney, enjoy the subsequent process of digestion etc. Next week it's at our place. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 09:18:50 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Consent of the governing Dear Wystan, You didn't say how small a mag: never more than 120 copies, photocopy. Do you remember the writers we didn't publish? I bet some of them remember us. This is all abt the struggle at the bottom of the publication heap, as opposed to TV and Newspaper and Text-Book and Encyclopaedia and Novels and Non-Fiction. And it's still a soap opera. Die-Nasty? But we did PAY for our photocopy, which was a sign of failure. We should really have stolen it. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 16:45:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Love me tenure aldon, your point about foucault hits home with me... for years i've been (in my occasionally angry way) trying to get folks to see that issues of class (and academe is real good at avoiding or obscuring honest talk about this subject) have not necessarily to do with how little money one has in one's bank account, but with how much and what sorts of access one is granted in institutional terms... i know a number of grad. students (i was one too) who seem to think that privation toward a phud constitutes a class distinction..... but what i learned growing up for a good portion of my life on the wrong side of the tracks is that theres a number of things that go along with lower economic status that, though emerging from a lack of the almighty buck, have in fact to do with entry into a specific social sector (or inability to enter), with an emotionally damaging sense of alienation, with wholesale exclusion from entire networks of taste (what's perceived as good in normative terms) AS WELL AS, say, health care... which leads to an impoverishment of aspiration AS WELL AS an empty stomach, neither of which is offered to one as a choice... looking forward to your further thoughts/// best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 18:29:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Jack Spicer ira, one way to get at the questions you ask might be via spicer's "kreis," absolutely essential to his poetics, i think and so discuss in my monograph (gag when you hear the word) on spicer. i've got a related essay on gay poetics in the new texture. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 18:35:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Knowledge & empowerment (long) actually, gary, what we need is for poets to find AGAIN a way around the system. not so long ago terrific books appeared in mimeograph form and then someone decided we all have to have glossy covers or the bookstores won't listen. is there a new way? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 00:36:48 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: sexual harassment + festering pastiche X-To: "I.LIGHTMAN" Hi Ira, well it had lit nit picking salon toadied all over it. The CCCP charity ball for poverty fond raising versers the rest. That's also the pervasive cynicism of London and of Cambridge over the past few years. One reason for my 'getting out'. That game simply isn't worth the bothering. If it patently wasn't true in my case I'd say "I've been to the top and there's nothing there!". Somehow something of what I'm saying is pertinent to this discussion of power and politics in poetry circles. The front game is a lit career game if you look carefully. Simply refuse to play. That doesn't in any way excuse those who abuse such situations. But don't give credence to the fawning crap shoot and confer or confirm power by even giving your attentive presence. Let the inflated egos blow away on their own copious and stale hot air. Pastiche and parody of now is the festering pits. love cris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 20:19:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Re: Knowledge & empowerment (long) In-Reply-To: <199504112256.SAA10006@mailhub.acsu.buffalo.edu> from "Edward Foster" at Apr 11, 95 06:35:25 pm Edward, You may, in fact, be participating in one variety of it! Loss ------------------------------------------------------------------ > actually, gary, what we need is for poets to find AGAIN a way around the system. not so long ago terrific books appeared in mimeograph form and then someone decided we all have to have glossy covers or the bookstores won't listen. is there a new way? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 20:54:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: sexual harassment In-Reply-To: <199504112205.SAA13776@sarah.albany.edu> from "I.LIGHTMAN" at Apr 11, 95 01:16:07 pm Ira, Could you let us know who the Lowdowntown vs. Camtown poets were? Pierre ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | He who wants to escape the world, translates it. Dept. of English | --Henri Michaux SUNY Albany | Albany NY 12222 | "Herman has taken to writing poetry. You tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | need not tell anyone, for you know how email: | such things get around." joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --Mrs. Melville in a letter to her mother. ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 21:06:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Blair Seagram Subject: Re: Native Americans In-Reply-To: <199504060935.FAA19886@panix4.panix.com> Chris Scheil wrote: Sorry if this post is somewhat strident (no personal offense is intended), but this is a subject about which I feel particularily strongly, and which all too often lends itself to a type of liberal hand-wringing do-nothingness that I find particularily offensive. Dear Chris: I ain't no liberal and this ain't no CBGB's. You speak the truth, and I have neglected to record your entire message. I feel I belong to North America, but I know I am descendent of European culture or better yet (the decline of) western civilization. What we have done to the Indians is a disaster. Tell me how to solve the problem. Should we pick up our bags and get the hell outta here. Should we have a mass suicide for all people that are not Native Americans. In which case, lets go back and redefine all the borders of Europe up to the migration of the peoples that brought forth the Indo-European languages. Respect full y ours, and love too Blair ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 21:29:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Blair Seagram Subject: Re: Dentistry In-Reply-To: <199504060935.FAA19886@panix4.panix.com> Dear Lindz (Lindsey) How appropriate of you, how intuitive of you, to choose teeth and the dentist as a means to an end. It is such a sensitive area for me. Keep resting in fields of totems where the grass is high and the dusk lingers on *from here to eternity*. Even so, morning keeps its appointment. TC/PG Blair ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 22:29:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: my correspondence with Spencer, and the power of poets Well, by referring to you as Spencer Selby in my post, Spencer, I didn't mean to turn my back on our relationship but rather to indicate exactly with whom I'd had the correspondence. I greatly enjoy my friendship with you. Your intransigence (what you refer to as my inability to get you to agree with me) is one of the attractions of the friendship, not a negative at all. "Opposition is true friendship" (for $50 and a chance at the weekend cruise, identify that quotation). I think my calling your position nominalist is fair as well; again I don't mean to reduce it in any way. Nor, really, do I think I said that you are wrong. It's hard to crack the crowd as a newcomer in poetry as in most other such little worlds. Further, it's hard to have shifts in your position accepted or appreciated as you go along in your career - a related matter which you don't treat. Many are those who, comfortable with the poet of _EncY_ - my first book - are a good deal less comfortable with the one who wrote _Letters of the Law_ my most recent. A personal example but hardly an exclusive one. The world trades on recognizability, it's not surprising. When I say that the authority of writing as an activity is what matters, I sure don't mean it's all that matters to editors or even to readers. It's to writers that it's all that ought to matter. In any case, if we understand anything from a century of philosophical analysis whose sole aim sometimes seems to show it, it is that "matters" only parses as "matters to X." Intentionality is of the essence of mind. Thus, when I say that the issue of power as you raise it bores me, I mean just that. Not at all to make it more difficult to "solve" this "problem," but to recognize that it won't be "solved" because it is not a "problem" but a condition. In a way I like it. I like the agon, and I like knowing that I can turn away from the agon. Often, I find, I am satisified with the difficulty of life. I don't wish for a world in which the minute you wrote something wonderful, huzzahs wd rise from all corners - a universal egalitarian response to new and anonymous brilliance (altho there is no greater pleasure I don't think than to experience the same: the first time I heard Lee Ann Brown's writing or Melanie Nielsen's or Jessica Grim's, for example). What about the value of struggle, anybody have a yen for that? I do decidedly. Finally, I well remember the first time I ran a reading series; it was with Ron Silliman, at the Grand Piano in SF in 1977. Immediately, people began bugging us to give them readings, and we did put a lot of people on (two a week for a long time). At the same time, we commanded no authority whatever, who were we? We just had a coffee house space. Anyone else cd have had a coffee house space too, and put on readings. Yet, we were treated as if we possessed some power and territory, and folks wanted a peace of it. The theory of poetic space behind this is that of a closed and finite space with operators in place; that's your theory too, I conclude, Spencer. But I think poetic space is like an extensible puzzle. It exists and has a set of features at its edges, and you hew something new to extend that space while relating to it. At the same time, you create a new space for that space to occupy too. You, for example, started Sink magazine. You will remember that my first advice to you when you showed me issue one, was that you should publish new writers, rather than making a new venue for all of us. I don't think I am convictable on your charges, in other words. It's boring to talk about the problems of breaking in or of making something genuinely new, but not boring to do so, nor boring to call it out when you see it and to publish it. Tom Mandel ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 22:42:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Colleen Lookingbill on "consent of..." "As politics (which involves the communication of only power relationships between people) holds more sway, humanity is more and more buried by reductive modes of relating, with it buried, politics becomes more and more mean-spirited, if indeed spirit of any kind can be said to be involved." Without exactly agreeing with the "terms" of this statement (terms which in a sense dictate its conclusions), I am all the same in sympathy with it. But, to me, it is precisely this concern with who is getting published or famous and why who has what power where, this it is which is "mean-spirited," that's why I said I found it boring and wished it would go away (a statement hardly synonymous, btw, with an "impulse to suppress it" - and this last remark is aimed at Joe Amato too). Tom Mandel ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 19:55:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Jack Spicer In-Reply-To: <199504111614.JAA27739@whistler.sfu.ca> from "I.LIGHTMAN" at Apr 11, 95 03:46:58 pm In reference to Lightman's almost wishing that Spicer were still almost unknown in various places, etc. Well, we should remember and take seriously Spicer's sense of writing for a community largely in the Bay Area (though later we would see that there were more copies of the +Collected Books_ sold in Vancouver than anywjhere else). That he couldnt care less whether there were any copies sold and bought in New York or Philadelphia. One should remember something of that while reading the poems; it gives them some of their force. The intimate urge of the voice, the confidence in the Spicer SENTENCE in those poems. What Jack thought about the fate of the poems these 30 years later, I dont know. But his sense of still writing TO people he knew is part of what makes the poems so damned wonderfulo. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 19:59:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Galen Cope Subject: Re: poetry & neo-chamber music Andrew- Julie Kabat recorded 'On the Edge' for Leonarda Productions (NY) in 1984. It features Marilyn Crispell and settings of a number of poems... -Stephen Cope ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 20:00:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Dinner Is Served X-cc: Dear@sfu.ca In-Reply-To: <199504110851.BAA07153@whistler.sfu.ca> from "Charles Bernstein" at Apr 11, 95 00:05:39 am Dear Charles. I wd love to make it to dinner, but I dont think I can even get to the Davis reading. Please convey my regrets to all concerned. Can we do lunch some day this week? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 22:00:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mn Center For Book Arts Subject: Re: Poetry/Jazz, Hemphill, etc. In-Reply-To: <2f89d4765338002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> I imagine there are a lot of people on this list who have jazz/poetry tapes of their own work. It may be with local (various localities) & regional & lesser-known national performers, but I imagine lots of us have done various kinds of collaborations. I know I have, with Steve Nelson-Raney and with Thomas Gaudynski, with Chuck Koesters & Carlos Nakai, and others (not all jazz, but some); I know Sheila Murphy has collaborated with various performers. I'd be interested to know how much this is a living part of various people's work, and particularly how such work informs the ear, the sounding, of poets. thanks, charles alexander ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 23:03:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Gary Sullivan on KNowledge & Empowerment Gary's post which concluds " Joe, & others, I don't know if any of the info or opinions above will prove useful to you. It's just one person's experience & opinions, after all. I hope you and others do, and continue to, look beyond pre-existing channels for new writing -- including (obviously) within yourselves. Knowledge & information is power. Everyone's entitled to it. It's not beneath you. Yours, Gary " is an extraordinary and useful characterization of real struggle and real condition in a social world I recognize and recognize myself co-inhabiting with him, and with others - "others" to include Spencer Selby and to include Ron Silliman. Every poetic act is, I hope an oppositional act of witness, a realist act. The most minimal act of extension, of giving your work to someone to read, is the first and best act of publishing. The problem of samizdat in the Soviet Union, for example, was not that poets couldn't find publishers because publishers were prevented (by active and passive means) from publishing these poets, but of a world organized to erase that oppositional witness, the acts of poets and, if I may oldfashiondlly so characterize it, of the poetic soul. The soul that believes that expression changes the world. There is no doubt that the veryb best way to see the struggle to get young or unknown or changing poets published is to see that struggle as against this closing of the world. To that degree, in that sense, to that end, I concur. Only this is not an issue of which poet has power and which does not; that is, it is a realer issue than that. Tom Mandel ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 23:06:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: FUNKHOUSER CHRISTOPH Subject: got a year old pair of rollerskates > Jed - -=09yes, talking regularly with Cecil about "poetry," > "heuristics," "spirits" (& Ar fan=20 > letter I sent last July. About half of what has became an 80 page "in= > terview"=20 > since then is supposed to be out in _Hambone 12_ this summer (there h= > ave been=20 > a couple of short excerpts in DIU, & a few bootleg editions around, t= > ho still=20 > needs editing). Over the past 33 years Cecil has been working with wo= > rds=20 > and/as sound, stirred in part by his "relationships" with Bob Kaufman= > , =20 > Betty Carter, Billie Holiday, Baraka, Living Theatre, Min Tanaka, his= > mom,=20 > dad, boulders et al... Recently he has been trying to get Abbey Linco= > ln to=20 > record a Kaufman poem he has set to music. Ten minutes or so of his f= > irst=20 > set last saturday at the village vanguard began with chanting & disti= > nct=20 > lines of poetry about "a point in orbit" "lacking distinct footlike= > =20 > appendages" & culinary chimings by cellist, & bells. Growls. Lovely. = > There=20 > are 2 or 3 CT word/sound albums (_Chinampas_ & _Tzotzil Mummers Tzotz= > il_=20 > have come out on Leo Records, & I think there's another, plus the Mys= > tic > Fire video, on which he recites)-- Cecil's a voracious reader, studen= > t > of dance & architecture as well as music, & talks about Audre Lourde,= > Olson, > Ella Fitzgerald, Creeley, & esp. Marvin Gaye and Duncan having had a = > certain=20 > influence on him. _Chinampas_ is especially "worth" checking out, wor= > dsounds > in "florescence" in a motion, e-motion, etc.: "a curve having rotati= > on in > three dimensions cutting sprial elements at a constant angle." G. Qu= > asha > has asked Cecil ( & I) to put together a text of CT's writing for Sta= > tion > Hill. Most of which now exists in notebooks in a closet in Brooklyn (= > though > "Garden" in the anthology _Moment's Notice_ is out, & other stuff on > liner notes)-- It might happen later in the year... we'll see... > Sun Ra I always think of as a poet & musician of importance, thoug= > h his=20 > work obscured. Marilyn Crispell's writing is great, too (she publishe= > d poems=20 > in last year's _Little Mag_, as well as on various albumcovers). = > =CAApparently > Clark C. has a book of poems soon out riffing off of Cecil's music... > Nate Mackey's CD, _Strick_, will be out on Spoken Engine (Memphis,= > =20 > who're also doing cds of Tarn & Maxine Hong Kingston this year) in ab= > out=20 > a month. The musicians are Iranian Hafiz M. (who Cope mentioned) & Ro= > yal=20 > Hartigan. One of them is in Ho's Afro-Asian ensemble. In an interview= > which=20 > will be in the spring issue of _Callaloo_ (much of which reprints the= > Nov.=20 > '91 issue of Poetry Flash), Nate talks extensively about his relation= > ship=20 > with music (&, btw, Nate guestedited the current issue of _Callaloo_,= > Wilson=20 > Harris as focus -- &, if anyone's interested, apparently Harris is sp= > eaking=20 > in Boston & DC next week -- ). The recording Cope referred to is a 6/= > 91=20 > program at New Langton Arts, Splatter Trio's interpretation of "Udhri= > te=20 > Amendment," a theme from Nate's prosody. Glenn Spearman's double-trio= > has=20 > also interpretively performed _Bedouin Hornbook_, of which there's a = > video=20 > which *hasn't* circulated. > > Archie Shepp wrote poems, too, Anais Nin work khakis, & _____(s) = > played=20 > guitar.=20 > > > =09=09funk-ling > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 20:25:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Desire In-Reply-To: <199504040022.RAA18767@whistler.sfu.ca> from "Gary Sullivan" at Apr 3, 95 04:14:31 pm Ooog! Agh! If one of those old old fifty-year old person was sticking his withered old hands down my pants, why, wehy, I think I would just get up and move. Probably got warts all over him. One thing I cant stand is old hands. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 23:39:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: FUNKHOUSER CHRISTOPH Subject: got a brand new pair of rollerblades sorry for the scrambled vers.-- Jed - - yes, talking regularly with Cecil about "poetry," "heuristics," "spirits" (& Armani suits) after he replied warmly to a fan letter I sent last July. About half of what has became an 80 page "interview" since then is supposed to be out in _Hambone 12_ this summer (there have been a couple of short excerpts in DIU, & a few bootleg editions around, tho still needs editing). Over the past 33 years Cecil has been working with words and/as sound, stirred in part by his "relationships" with Bob Kaufman, Betty Carter, Billie Holiday, Baraka, Living Theatre, Min Tanaka, his mom, dad, boulders et al... Recently he has been trying to get Abbey Lincoln to record a Kaufman poem he has set to music. Ten minutes or so of his first set last saturday at the village vanguard began with chanting & distinct lines of poetry about "a point in orbit" "lacking distinct footlike appendages" & culinary chimings by cellist, & bells. Growls. Lovely. There are 2 or 3 CT word/sound albums (_Chinampas_ & _Tzotzil Mummers Tzotzil_ have come out on Leo Records, & I think there's another, plus the Mystic Fire video, on which he recites)-- Cecil's a voracious reader, student of dance & architecture as well as music, & talks about Audre Lourde, Olson, Ella Fitzgerald, Creeley, & esp. Marvin Gaye and Duncan having had a certain influence on him. _Chinampas_ is especially "worth" checking out, wordsounds in "florescence" in a motion, e-motion, etc.: "a curve having rotation in three dimensions cutting spiral elements at a constant angle." G. Quasha has asked Cecil ( & I) to put together a text of CT's writing for Station Hill. Most of which now exists in notebooks in a closet in Brooklyn (though "Garden" in the anthology _Moment's Notice_ is out, & other stuff on liner notes)-- It might happen later in the year... we'll see... Sun Ra I always think of as a poet & musician of importance, though his work obscured. Marilyn Crispell's writing is great, too (she published poems in last year's _Little Mag_, as well as on various albumcovers). Apparently Clark C. has a book of poems soon out riffing off of Cecil's music... Nate Mackey's CD, _Strick_, will be out on Spoken Engine (Memphis, who're also doing cds of Tarn & Maxine Hong Kingston this year) in about a month. The musicians are Iranian Hafiz M. (who Cope mentioned) & Royal Hartigan. One of them is in Ho's Afro-Asian ensemble. In an interview which will be in the spring issue of _Callaloo_ (much of which reprints the Nov. '91 issue of Poetry Flash), Nate talks extensively about his relationship with music (&, btw, Nate guestedited the current issue of _Callaloo_, Wilson Harris as focus -- &, if anyone's interested, apparently Harris is speaking in Boston & DC next week -- ). The recording Cope referred to is a 6/91 program at New Langton Arts, Splatter Trio's interpretation of "Udhrite Amendment," a theme from Nate's prosody. Glenn Spearman's double-trio has also interpretively performed _Bedouin Hornbook_, of which there's a video which *hasn't* circulated. Archie Shepp wrote poems, too, Anais Nin work khakis, & _____(s) played guitar. funk-ling ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 22:49:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mn Center For Book Arts Subject: Re: Knowledge & empowerment (long) In-Reply-To: <2f8ac02c28ff002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Gary, your long post on knowledge & empowerment is most welcome. You're probably right about the presence at the Cowles dinner for Gigi Bradford. Chax or Detour would not have been invited because they don't have the right community presence, boards with clout of various kinds, etc. At more recent meetings of the six largest literary organizations in Twin Cities I have been lobbying to include other (not the largest) organizations, and it looks like that will happen in September, but I had to argue against the idea that the larger organizations ought to set the agenda first and then open the floor to smaller organizations. Makes me wonder if I ought to be lobbying for more openness or if I ought to just be running for the door as fast as I can. I'm not so certain about the effect of cutting NEA. Sometimes I think the larger presses with more money from NEA will be hurt more than the smallest presses who will find ways to survive without such money, as they find ways now to survive without such money. But these are complex matters, as de-funding NEA, if that happens or if drastic cuts happen, will have ripples and waves throughout the philanthropic world. I think your post should be read by Gigi Bradford at the NEA. I can probably find that e-mail address for you if you want it. all best, charles ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 22:02:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lindz Williamson Subject: Re: Native Americans In-Reply-To: <199504120117.SAA03448@unixg.ubc.ca> On Tue, 11 Apr 1995, Blair Seagram wrote: > > Dear Chris: I ain't no liberal and this ain't no CBGB's. You speak the > truth, and I have neglected to record your entire message. I feel I > belong to North America, but I know I am descendent of European culture > or better yet (the decline of) western civilization. What we have done to > the Indians is a disaster. Tell me how to solve the problem. Should we pick > up our bags and get the hell outta here. Should we have a mass suicide for all > people that are not Native Americans. In which case, lets go back and > redefine all the borders of Europe up to the migration of the peoples > that brought forth the Indo-European languages. > > Respect full y ours, > > and love too > > Blair > Everyone is getting so touchy lately and I'm not quite sure what t o think of it. Spring in the Northern hemisphere is obviously putting us all in a tizzy. I like it, I think we all need a good bout of defensive cynicism. In reply to Blair's rant and have to somewhat agree just jumping of a bridge would make things simpler, but then what would the after life be like with all those quitters. It all comes down to guilt, which is bloody well boring and I don't think we need to play the apology game any more. The PC movement has shown us all what a nightmare that can be. It's just another form of generic classification that by breaking down one stereo type and constructing another that masks as unoffensive. This fabricated NewSpeak is a false liberation. Not that I want to preach, but i don't fear those who offend me but those who seek to shield me from vulgarity. And to Eric, sorry (fuck me I didn't want to apologize, I recant) if I crossed genres but the way I view myself is a writer, not an author, not a poet. i look at all forms of writing for incite. Most of my favorite poets I admire for their ability to tell story. likewise I admire novelist who use their poetic license honestly Lindz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 22:03:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Poetry/Jazz In-Reply-To: <199504111440.AA29726@mail.eskimo.com> On Tue, 11 Apr 1995, George Bowering wrote: > Works the other way round, too. There were rumours years ago of all > the poems that Cecil Taylor has/had written. F'rinmstance. > There's still little of Taylor's poetry in print, a few as liner notes and a large chunk in Nate Mackey & Art Lange's are all I can recall offhand. But there is a _very_ good recording of Taylor's poetry on Leo, originally an lp and now, I'm pretty sure, available on CD. It's called and it's just Taylor reciting and playing (mostly percussion instruments). Less jazz-related but mostly not chamber music either are these other new music/new writing collaborations: Morton Feldman's - an hour-long piece using about two and a half lines of Frank O'Hara in the midst of mostly vocalise; Feldman's opera on a text written for him by Samuel Beckett; I've heard a tape of Steve Benson improvising with the Splatter Trio (did they really collaborate with Nate Mackey?); The Hub (an interactive live computer music group) performed live on a Pacifica station in the Bay area with poets sending in texts digitally via the Well (a bit of this is on the second Hub CD); Larry Polansky collaborated with Australian poet Chris Mann on a piece called ; and, I haven't heard it but Nicolas Collins used some texts of Diane Ward's that were subsequently published in for a composition or installation or something. - Herb ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 22:18:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Standing In-Reply-To: <199504111953.AA23080@mail.eskimo.com> On Tue, 11 Apr 1995, Edward Foster wrote: > it's nice to think that poetry might/could effect the world, but as spicer point > ed out in that anguished talk at the berkeley conference shortly before his deat > h, poetry simply hasn't/doesn't. as they say, poetry has nothing to do with poli > tics. > poetry may not have anything to do with Politics (though that's debatable), but it sure as hell has it's _own_ politics, which is what this thread has been all about. The fact that the thread has run as long as it has is a sign that there are indeed politics right here on this mailing list. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 01:22:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Murphy Subject: Re: Poetry/Jazz, Hemphill, etc. I share Charles Alexander's interest in hearing about other people's collaborations involving words and music. Just this past week, I collaborated in a performance of my poems performed as a sonata (that is, equal voicing, rather than accompanied) with Megha Morganfield, gifted performer on Celtic harp. We've now been working together for two years, following a program we gave at a gallery here in Phoenix. We did a cassette tape called "The Weight and Feel of Harps" a while back, and it's been well received. (Can be ordered through me if anyone is interested) The tone matching we magically discovered between the instrument and my speaking voice has proved a catalyst for making certain types of work together. We're considering at present a collaborative composition relating to particular types of landscape within Arizona.. In performance, the harp sound (plucky rather than swishing, so more lutelike) pacifies and stimulates the senses in an audience, so people seem better prepared to receive the words. It's a lovely phenomenon that I'd prefer not to consider negatively, as I'm grateful for any entry point at all. It's been exciting for me, rewarding on that front. Most of all, the seemingly infinite capacity for variation that Megha possesses (as a trained flutist, I know what to look for, and I LOVE what she does) helps me want to do more in the written work. It brings out a particular attunement to the geography here. (Mostly a point of personal association) I consider collaboration of any kind one of the most enriching experiences of my life. This, of course, includes the constant collaborating that I do with John Bennett through the mails (and I'm not even close to the only one--many on this list work with him, too). I know I've referenced this before. Thanks for bringing this up, Charles. SEM ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 01:34:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Murphy Subject: Re: Knowledge & empowerment (... Gary, you put this really well in your post about empowerment. I recognize that in the relatively more limited sphere involving publication of innovative work, the struggles and the processes are blurred. You cut through this and get to the heart of the matter. Some of the points you make are easier to see in the large press world, which is not to say we're uninfected within this one (by the limitations that hurt everyone). For some time, I've been struck by what's in airport bookshops. People who don't take pains to go looking for good books (probably most people) have access to this tiny little row of tiny-minded little books that seem to me barely recreational, and miles from good (the gospel according to SEM). So they buy what's there (if they buy a book at all) and in many cases, I am told, don't really read them, just carry them around, whatever. Whatever they do with the books is really not my concern. But the limitations, the measley little rows we see and see and see in airports (I tend to buy a legal pad if I find myself without a stash of stuff to read), is a self-perpetuating phenomenon. And it all comes from tacit consent. Not speaking up ultimately yields this kind of limitation. I raise this common sense, less intellectually-oriented example if only to underscore the direction that this process takes, using one scabby little example. For the record. SEM ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 15:03:52 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Geraets Subject: more Ps and a C The exchanges on (of?) poetry & power are really interesting. I'd be very interested to see a concurrent discussion get going on the compensations involved in our practice. For such a politically disempowered group to be so beset with issues of power, there have got to be pretty decent compensations, the 'pleasures'. Is this vehicle designed to please? John Geraets frank@dpc.aichi-gakuin.ac.jp (actually, I'm noticing the letter 'P' may be the problem, power, poetry, public, personal, pleasure - and doubtless - pain.) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 18:24:18 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Knowledge & empowerment (... Dear Sheila, I don't know that it's all always bad at airports, I once bought a big fat novel at Auckland airport,lasted me all the way to London, Eco: Foucault's Pendulum. Some you win, some you lose. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 23:50:47 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Death of Andy Cole Have received word, from Nemi Frost and Larry Kearney, of the death earlier this year in Marin County (Northern California) of Andy Cole, aged 52. When he arrived in San Francisco in 1964 from Binghampton and Brooklyn, Andy Cole was 21. He and his friends were promptly dubbed the "Jesuits" by Jack Spicer and his circle at Gino & Carlo's, the North Beach bar/site of the poetic activity surrounding "Open Space" and Spicer's penultimate book "Language." In "Language" these Brooklyn Catholic boys flicker in and out of vision, flames casting shadows, forever young, scared, near death, untouchable. Like his great friends Spicer and Richard Brautigan, Andy Cole died "essentially of alcoholism." (LK) "The trees Of some dark forest where we wander amazed at the selves of ourselves. Stumbling. Roots Stay. You cannot lose your innocence, Andy Nor could Alice. Nor could anyone Given the right woods" -Spicer, "Morphemics 4" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 18:33:42 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: sexual harassment + festering pastiche Dear Cris and Ira, It's not worth the carriage, is it? But it is interesting that it can carry the prestige still in Britain. I don't know if this particular phenomenon happens elsewhere. I relish the recording of what is not the true scene it believes it is. However much it happens it is not something to be angry about. I'm sure you're right, Cris, walk away from it, Ira, but quickly. It's a bit like the Royal Academy, never too far from fox-hunting in the past (and the present?), the establishment's version of culture. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 21:18:28 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland Subject: Re: Knowledge & empowerment (... X-To: SEMAZ@AOL.COM DEAR SHEILA, IT WAS AT LA GUARDIA I BOUGHT A BIOGRAPHY OF GERTRUDE STEIN AND READ IT ACROSS THE ATLANTIC, ONE OF MY BEST FLIGHTS. And there was a news item on the BBC Business News which comes through here in a late slot re-the privatising of some US airports, British Airways has one with a Waterstone's in it I saw. Wystan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 08:50:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: power etc. Power circulates like shit happens. (We take it and turn it into poems.) How much do you want? What are you willing to pay for it? Tom Mandel is right on about our condition, as is George Bowering on who Jack Spicer wrote for. What more do you want? What are you willing to pay for it? At least we both know how shitty the world is. You wearing a beard as a mask to disguise it. I wearing my tired smile. I don't see how you do it. One hundred thousand university students marching with you. Toward A necessity which is not love but is a name. King of the May. A title not chosen for dancing. The police Civil but obstinate. If they'd attacked The kind of love (not sex but love), you gave the one hundred thousand students, I'd have been very glad. And loved the policemen. Why Fight the combine of your heart and my heart or anybody's heart. People are starving. --Jack Spicer, from 10 Poems for Downbeat (to return us to where the power discussion began . . .) Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 09:14:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Colleen Lookingbill on "consent of..." tom, i happily allow for your gloss on "boredom," must admit i didn't read it the way you've since spelled it out... and this latter way is helpful in pulling out yet another aspect of the (currently fracturing) "power" monolith... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 10:29:56 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kat Subject: Re: power etc. In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 12 Apr 1995 08:50:49 -0400 from Thanks for the Spice of Spicer's commentary on what, in retrospect even on a day approaching May, seems Ginsberg's silly identity politics of flowers and fantasy. Just a note, I took it that the comment about books at airports also had a larger application. If "privatizing" airports, along with all the other things on the Tory lists yields a book on Stein for a transatlantic flight, has the world improved or poetry become (less) political? Problem, or part of it, is that no one can get outside the transnational flow, net, order of capital. It might be that, like the trogs on the bridge in Gibson's novel *Virtual Light* one can engage in the trade of unnoticed beauties and unadopted changes, but Ecco, Stein, and Gibson are surely pocketed in that net. Politics, in any case, happens at various levels and in many places. AND,as Spicer's manifold irony echoes, "People are starving"-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 09:51:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: my correspondence with Spencer, and the power of poets i'm curious what others have to say about tom's "shifts of position"--- how such shifts are often not well-received (within any artistic community)... how poets who have found their 'voice' are presumed to continue to articulate with same... how not only a shift from work to work, but *within* a given work, is generally viewed with some suspicion... it seems to me this is the case both within more avant garde circles and within the more orthodox poetry venues... personally, i've never been able to locate my aesthetic quite so univocally... but in any case, i'm wondering what this bias toward consistency says about poetic practice in general... joe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 11:51:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kenneth Goldsmith Subject: Small Depressing Nondistribution Who???? I live in New York City and there's not one bookstore in this entire town that consistently carries items from the SPD catalog! Access to interesting poetry remains limited to what publishers or friends give/send me. All I ever hear are bellyaches from East Coast Publishers that they're attics are filling up with cartons of returns that have never seen a store. So, have fun getting in on SPD's good side...some big deal! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 13:42:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Colleen Lookingbill Subject: Re: Standing Dear Herb, Good reply to Ed. - thnks for saying so clearly what I think may be an understatement, "The fact that the thread has run as long as it has is a sign that there are indeed politics right here on this mailing list." Colleen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 11:12:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: power etc.& Spicer In-Reply-To: <199504121614.JAA23503@whistler.sfu.ca> from "Michael Boughn" at Apr 12, 95 08:50:49 am Michael Boughn writes: > > Power circulates like shit happens. (We take it and turn it into > poems.) How much do you want? What are you willing to pay for it? Tom > Mandel is right on about our condition, as is George Bowering on who > Jack Spicer wrote for. What more do you want? What are you willing to > pay for it? > Yay! we're on Spicer again! First, kudos to Edward Foster for his monograph on Spicer and Ron Silliman for both the New Sentence article and his piece in Perelman's *Writing/Talks*. If we are going to talk about power and analogize it to shit, Spicer had much to say on the subject: For you I would build a whole new universe around myself. This isn't shit it is poetry. Shit Enters into it only as an image. -from *Language* There are only power/ful images. Ryan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 14:12:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: Situation #9 Situation #9 features the work of Rod Smith, Emily Miller, Richard Roundy, John Perlman, W.B. Keckler, Mary Winters, Bruce Holsapple, and Dennis Barone. Subscriptions are $8 for four issues, or a single issue for $2. Write to: Mark Wallace, Situation, 10402 Ewell Ave., Kensington, MD 20895. Thanks to all of you out there who have recently subscribed or re-subscribed for your help in keeping my magazine afloat! mark wallace ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 11:46:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Galen Cope Subject: Re: Poetry/Jazz The Steve Benson/ Splatter Trio piece that Herb refers to is included on We Magazine XV -- a 1992 cassette that features readings by Mackey, Alarcon, Everson, Hernandez-Cruz, Ginsberg, Waldman, Clausen, Yates, Trudy Morse w/ Cecil Taylor, and many others (including much collaborative work... Available via WE PRESS POBOX 1503 SANTA CRUZ, CA 95061 -Stephen Cope ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 14:54:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Re: Small Depressing Nondistribution In-Reply-To: <199504121858.LAA29569@mailhost.primenet.com> Dear Kenneth: In response to your post about SPD, I think it would be helpful for those without SPD access to note that, if Detour wasn't carried by them, we wouldn't have been able to afford to publish Johanna Drucker's _Dark Decade_. 1/2 the money for that book we made by typesetting the soon-to-appear next issue of _Central Park_; 1/4th of the money we made pre-selling books through the mail to Johanna's fans (mostly people interested in "book art" items); and 1/4th of the money was from sales of previous of our books carried by SPD. As neither Marta nor I work full-time, we can't pay for the things ourselves, and do rely on sales to be able to continue publishing. You're right -- we too have boxes of books here in our closets -- but equally true is that our own access to SPD has allowed us to continue publishing. They're not Consortium (who agressively sell many, many books for small/literary publishers), but they do keep some of us in business. Our press, anyway. Yours, Gary ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 16:13:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Knowledge & empowerment (long) loss, you're right, but words here vanish usually; we need to rethink cyberspaceso that a "magazine" here would still be readable/read years hence the way we can/do still read old issues of c, caterpillar, etc. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 15:28:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Re: Charles Alexander's post In-Reply-To: <199504121238.FAA24255@mailhost.primenet.com> Dear Charles: I'm glad you've been lobbying for everyone; you weren't here prior to working at the MCBA, but you should know that before you started work there, it was a very different, much more closed, organization. My friend Michael Kronebusch said that the event you curated (I think it was "The Boundless Book") was the first time that bookmakers from out of the upper midwest region had been invited there, would have been unheard of prior to your getting there. So, many thanks from all of us here. Feel free Charles (or anyone) to forward that post to Gigi. I deleted it to keep my e-mail file more manageable. As far as the NEA cutbacks hurting larger organizations more, I understand your logic. It's like this cartoon I just saw: A cat in a suit standing in front of a desk, behind which sits a dog in a suit. The dog says to the cat: "I'm not worried about you, Henley. You'll land on your feet." More to say about & around that, mostly things I want to post from Jack Smith's book, _Historical Treasures_. More about that (& Jack Smith) later this evening or tomorrow. Yours, Gary ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 16:16:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Standing no, poetry does not have politics, tho it may have political "subjects" and be used politically. snore, ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 08:42:35 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: my correspondence with Spencer, and the power of poets "What about the value of struggle, anybody have a yen for that? I do decidedly." Tom Mandel writes and. we were treated as if we possessed some power and territory, and folks wanted a peace of it." Well said. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 17:50:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Re: Knowledge & empowerment / electronic In-Reply-To: <199504122026.QAA16896@eerie.acsu.buffalo.edu> from "Edward Foster" at Apr 12, 95 04:13:38 pm > loss, you're right, but words here vanish usually; we need to rethink cyberspaceso that a "magazine" here would still be readable/read years hence the way we can/do still read old issues of c, caterpillar, etc. Edward, But I would contend that these "texts" _will_ be able to be read years hence. Electronic poetry magazines and books are archived at the Electronic Poetry Center; the transactions of this list are also archived (and, indeed, can also be keyword searched). So that the material is _there_. In fact, one might argue that it will be _more_ possible to read an early issue of RIF/T or diu or TREE years hence than it is for many people unable to track down c or caterpillar... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 17:53:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Re: Love me tenure How did "perfect-bound book" get defined as the pinnacle of success? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 19:07:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: What Is Digest? X-To: Automatic digest processor In-Reply-To: <199504121002.GAA20744@panix4.panix.com> I recently changed my relationship to poetics server by subscribing in Digest mode because I couldn't keep up with all the messages. And it is a shock to me how much my feelings about the listserv have changed: I am no longer following the arguments. I often delete the entire message. When I read the message, the individual messages don't stand out as they used to. The sense of community seems to have been fostered by the volume in individual messages. I still get from one to five personal messages a day and value them immensely, but the listserv seems not to be a community in "Digest mode". It is the other who is not me. Maybe I am alone in this, but I wonder if anyone else has similar or different responses to the new mode. Can "Digest" really digest the material and does that mean it re-morphs the material into an indistinguishable mass of components? James ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 19:31:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Re: What Is Digest? In-Reply-To: <199504122308.TAA02369@mailhub.acsu.buffalo.edu> from "James Sherry" at Apr 12, 95 07:07:32 pm James, The "digest" mode repackages the list events in an arbitrary "order." I think your sense that there is less vitality is a fair call. This is a machine sense of increment, 24 hours or whatever it is, when from a human point of view some exchanges expire within hours (some of the volleys, perhaps) or luxuriate across days sometimes naturally spreading into related and maybe even more interesting stretches of conversation (e.g., jazz and poetry). "Digest," coming from any usual sense of the word, is not accurate, of course, because there is no summation or other thoughtful order made; only a lump sum of the day's events. The other side is to be somewhat chained to the sometimes rapid-fire onslaught of messages that can accumulate like snow (metaphor at least applies to certain of our climates). I also enjoy, however, the sense of _pace_. E.g., sometimes around midnight the messages come in one after another; at other times there are long stretches where everyone must be reading or have attention wandering elsewhere. So neither option is ideal. It is the immediacy of postings that I find most interesting, though, so I opt for the message by message version of the exchange, as I have responded to this instantly as it came across my screen... Loss ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 19:42:40 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lisa Samuels Subject: poetic consistency dear joe amato: is it a combination of past poetic practices & human nature that prompts people to want & expect consistency in a poet's voice? not to say The Poetry Of Ages Past didn't have opportunities for self-difference, but certainly the best-known poets of the past maintained distinctive voices (as obvious as Dickinson, Whitman, eg). & human nature: we want to know what to expect; & we think that those who are touched by the fire will know always how to speak, so that if they change their manner they must not be sure that what they did before was 'right', & if they don't know how to decide to speak then how can we know how to decide to listen? self-difference is interesting, but it is not comfortable, & it is not the language of certainty. i do not want to write different poems in the same ways, but i understand that readers -- myself reading others, too -- have a hard time with the anti-expected in the historically single-voiced realm of poetry. but, like you, i write different poems in different ways, regardless. lisa samuels ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 20:04:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Howard Shoemaker Subject: ENSLIN AND TAGGART I've set up a poetry reading for Ted Enslin and John Taggart to take place here in Charlottesville on Monday April 17th at 8 p.m. (in Minor Hall, room 125, on the grounds of the University of Virginia). I know there are several people on the list who are interested in attending; my apologies to the rest of you for the extra scrolling... If anyone needs directions or further details you can contact me at ss6r@fermi.clas.virginia.edu or 804-295-7511. I imagine it wld be easiest to give directions over the phone. best, steve shoemaker ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 02:08:32 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: sexual harassment Ira, Cris has given me this oppurtunity to reply to your--sadly, quite accurate--piece about the recent "poetry party" in London. Your description of the evening as "a meeting of the two rival camps in avant-garde poetry" is every bit as distasteful as the--yes, pathetic--parodies of Language poetry which were read by one of the Cambridge poets (Peter Riley, pop pickers!). Perhaps a bit of background information may be useful here: the evening was a party (with readings) to raise money for the Cambridge Conference of Contemporary Poetry, an annual event which has received less Arts Council funding this year. (To their credit, the organisers do put on people from outside either the London or Cambridge "schools"--Barbara Guest, Ann Portugal, Steve Benson, for example.) You correctly state that there were ten readers at the party. You also correctly state that eight of these readers were men, and two of them women. What you disingenuously neglect to mention is that you were one of the eight men (and you also fail to categorise your work as being either second-hand Zukofsky or second-hand Prynne, the two options which seem to be available depending on one's choice of geographical affiliation). I feel that the fact that you chose to travel to London (poems safely in your bag) and participate in the reading--with the rest of "us"--denies you access to the morally superior tone you adopt in your role as correspondent and critic of the UK "scene", such as it is. But anyway, this is by the by. More important than the above is your correct identification of the "stifling dominant maleness" that pervades readings in London. And, yes, you're right, there was no attempt made to engage or involve the small number of women--yes, mostly friends of readers, including me--who'd come. Most of my friends have stopped coming to readings now, as they're not made welcome--it's amazing to see just how many heads turn when someone "new" walks into a reading--a mistake, surely? what are THEY doing here? So, OK. Let's pretend that one of the regulars does make an effort to engage one of the neophytes in conversation. Here's how it might go: "Do you write poetry?" "No." "Oh." If the neophyte is lucky, "conversation" stops here, but here's a possible reply, once the neophyte's non-poetry-writer status has been confirmed: "Actually, no one here really likes my work..." Sometimes--although this happens rarely--a neutral, but serious, ground for conversation is discovered. This is usually jazz. Although London poetry, in particular, is an almost exclusively male domain, it is also closed off to interference, to noise from outside, on a scale that extends far beyond issues of gender. (So it seems to me, as a London resident for three years.) There are also many instances of hostility toward poetry from the "outside"--especially the U.S. (I know that you know this, Ira, I just mention it as a general point.) (Oh, last year I heard an American poet--female--preface a poem with "This one's for all you pregnant mothers out there." The audience was exclusively male.) Finally, on the subject of Friday's party, I'd just like to say that there was a reading, it was in London, I was asked to read at it, and I read. If this identifies me as a member of the "London school" then I am deeply saddened. Surely one can live in London because there are lots of cinemas, restaurants, etc., and not because one finds Prynne's work "ugly" and "cluttered" (just two of the criticisms I've heard since living here). (Incidentally, after more than two years of living in London, the first complimentary words about Prynne I heard came from an American on holiday, Peter Gizzi!) I'm appealing to you, Ira, because, apart from anything else, we share a common interest in poets who live beyond these shores. The shallow typifications and vapid generalisations in your piece can only make matters worse, and, as you know, they're quite bad enough as it is. Miles Champion ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 20:22:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Hello & more new music/new writing In-Reply-To: <199504121415.AA12790@mail.eskimo.com> When I got home tonight & read the mail I found that my "hello" had apparently gotten lost in the aether. Sorry if I seemed to be barging in with the other day's postings. I'm probably an oddity on the list. I've been a reader of new poetry in whatever you want to call the area this list is about forever, but I'm not a poet or an academic. I'm that general reader that likes to read new work. I probably should have written "one of those general readers," 'cause we are out here, you know. Anyway, I'm also an oddity in being from Seattle, the only person I've noticed from the Pacific Northwest (though I've obviously noted several people posting from Canada's "Southwest"). I've spent a lot of the past twenty years presenting new music concerts, doing radio, and generally working in the non-profit arts world. And I'll probably remember more examples of new music/new writing collaborations every time I post. Today I thought of the ongoing, though often low-key, collaboration between composer Alvin Curran and Clark Coolidge, who have known each other since they were kids in Rhode Island. And there are a couple of song settings of Charles Olson texts by Pauline Oliveros that I've seen listed, but I've never heard. Oh yeah, that Diane Ward collaboration was with David Weinstein, not Nicolas Collins. Now I'll go read that long list of mail. - Herb Levy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 01:14:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Murphy Subject: On Books Dear Tony, Thanks! I'll keep giving the airport shops a chance. Miracles may happen! SEM ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 01:37:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Colleen Lookingbill Subject: Re: Love me tenure Al sed: "Our analyses should be directed toward specific descriptions of the forms of power we exercise and experience, and how they can be altered." Yes - this is the discussion we should be having - and I thought in part the discussion we were having. Colleen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 01:38:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Colleen Lookingbill Subject: Re: Colleen Lookingbill on "consent of..." Tom sed: "Truly, I hope this subject will go away, as it is boring beyond bearing. A measure of worthwhile subject surely must be the difference which may be made by one response or another. Why, in that case, does this list produce the opposite when it is composed of intelligent and passionate people committed to the baseline language art?" which I felt was pretty condemning talk - and then Aldon said, "as Tom Mandel suggests, put the subject to bed." Perhaps supress was a bad word to choose, but what seemed to me was being suggested - glad to hear that is not the case! Appreciate your sympathy to the statement "As politics (which involves the communication of only power relationships between people) holds more sway, humanity is more and more buried by reductive modes of relating, with it buried, politics becomes more and more mean-spirited, if indeed spirit of any kind can be said to be involved." given your reservation about the terms. Don't agree that the discussion on the list involving power/politics/poetry has been mean spirited - see no evidence of this since I have been reading/writing. - Colleen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 00:38:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Jack Smith The following excerpts are from _Historical Treasures_, a collection of essays and pieces by Jack Smith, published by Hanuman in 1990, a year after the performance-artist/filmmaker died of AIDS. Never having seen Smith perform, nor his movie _Flaming Creatures_, I can't really say anything about his creative work (though a friend recently gave me some wonderful second-hand accounts of it); but, after reading my daily mail from poeticslist, I found this book in a store, and was surprised by the amount of overlay. Smith seems to have made very few compromises. His work -- which he ultimately considered to be "baroque" -- took, by his own account, enormous effort to create; though, he didn't take equal pains to preserve it. From J. Hoberman's Introduction: "Once [Smith] withdrew _Flaming Creatures_ from Anthology Film Archives, his art was untainted by any institutional endorsement -- an astonishing fact in this cruddy age ..." From Smith's essay, "Remarks on Art and the Theater": "It's the only American response to real art: they become criminal. They don't think about supporting it. Instead they'll give you a hard time that they won't give to somebody making schlock. You know, they just threw money at Andy Warhol because he conformed exactly to what Americans want. You see. I don't think any of you realize sufficiently what you're up against. These people, the foundations, the curators, they're not there to help you; they are there to feed you into the commercial industry. That's what's being pushed in the schools: Vampirism. Art is not being taught in the schools, how to make it. The way it's being taught, some really powerful personage or work with a lot of essence is being dangled in front of them. Then they're fertilized by this, the myth of being really fertilized. And then they can make art. This is fraudulent. It saves them a lot of time by not teaching what ought to be going on. They're not showing you, molecule by molecule, how to make art. They're substituting the system by exposing them to some artist, and the more soaked in tragedy and failure that person is whose art they're dangling in front of you, the better, because then it increases the thrill of vampirism. ... And they still can't make art, and they don't want to face the fact they're going to have to become an apprentice. They paid a lot of money not to know that. ... "About a year and a half ago I just suddenly realized I had all this work to squeeze out, and the theater wasn't going to pay me. I said to them: 'You have to pay me a good amount of money. I'm not going to stand on this stage in front of all those healthy yuppies, all of them with teeth, and I have to entertain them, and I'm the only one in the room without teeth.' I said, 'You've got to pay me two thousand dollars.' And that is not much. ... He couldn't do it because he had this image of the crazy baby poopoo who lays the golden egg, and you don't have to pay them and you can save a nickel on them. "In this country we still don't know what we're up against. There's a profound hatred of art, and that's where all these troubles are coming from. Everyone believes they adore art, that they want to support it, throwing money at it and so forth. But if it is real art they cannot help it; it must get mutilated. ... "European art teachers never came here. Why on earth should they? They'd have to be insane to leave a cultural paradise and come here. European artists did work that Americans were very pleased to think was American art. It wasn't. It was one-hundred percent European. Americans never made art. The aesthetic part of something is ultimately the most functional part. Manufacturing and making art are two opposite ways of thinking. They don't agree at any point. Have you ever driven through the German countryside? It's art. There are rows of crops in stripes, winding gently around the curves of the hills. In stripes! You've got to have an aesthetic sense, which the Germans are usually not credited for. They're making art when they don't know it, because they want strength: they want something that's going to last. That's art. Farming is very close to making art. It's much closer than a lot of other things. We don't have that. We want to get rid of it, stamp it out, rape it. Just like we have raped this country. You can't indulge in behavior like that and say it isn't hatred. And I've lived through it, too. I was knocking myself out to make this stuff. And I always assumed that people would see this and have pity on me and give me at least the support of not stealing from me. They didn't." * * * I feel bad excerpting -- like taking fertile soil from a perfectly beautiful patch of earth & using it to pot houseplants -- but thought the above might add to, expand & expose the underbellies of some of the posts I've been reading (especially Tom Mandel's recent one on "the general condition," much of which I agreed with) as well as posting. Yours, Gary ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 22:45:38 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Jack Smith Dear Gary, and don't forget Jack Smith saying that the greatest two lines in American film were spoken by Maria Montez in "Cobra Woman"- "Geef me the cobarah chewel! Geef me the cobarah chewel!" How right he was! -DB & KK ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 00:46:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mn Center For Book Arts Subject: Re: Love me tenure In-Reply-To: <2f8cb4d22d99002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> On Wed, 12 Apr 1995, Bill Luoma wrote: > How did "perfect-bound book" get defined as the pinnacle of success? > Perfect bound, the market commodity, easily digestible, commonplace. Oh, the history of the book is groaning. A thousand years ago it was carvings on stone or clay, six or seven hundred years ago it was illuminations and writing by hand on various surfaces, including vellum and parchment and papyrus, four hundred years ago it was metal impressing ink on paper (which lasted quite some time, with various changes in structure & binding), and even 25 years ago the sewn, case-bound book was the pinnacle. Now it's perfect binding & imprinted bar code. Before long it will be digitalized, retrievable, electronic information. And someone will probably find a way to bar code that as well. charles alexander ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 00:59:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Re: Jack Smith In-Reply-To: <199504130545.WAA00225@mailhost.primenet.com> Dear Kevin & Dodie: Yes! & that essay -- "The Perfect Filmic Appositeness of Maria Montez" -- is truly, truly amazing. Hey! Did either of you ever see any of Jack Smith's performances? I only recently found out about him -- my friend Michael Kronebusch was giving me these riveting second-hand accounts -- would love to hear (or read) something first-hand ... Yours, Gary ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 01:07:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Re: Love me tenure In-Reply-To: <199504130521.WAA26563@mailhost.primenet.com> On Wed, 12 Apr 1995, Bill Luoma wrote: > How did "perfect-bound book" get defined as the pinnacle of success? Dear Bill: On that note: have you done, or could you do, a translation of Catullus #22, and if so, post it? Your fan, Gary ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 23:06:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Spencer Selby Subject: Re: true friendship In-Reply-To: <199504120849.BAA20869@> Dear Tom, It's nice to hear that we're still friends. If "opposition is true friendship," then I guess we are now being true friends. Excuse me, however, if I question yr explanation for referring to me as Spencer Selby. I'm pretty sure that I'm the only Spencer on here, certainly the only one that's doing any talking. And I'm pretty sure that everyone knows that (if they are listening at all), including you. If you say a subject is "boring almost beyond bearing," then that means you want it to go away, and yr Sunday post was as much an attempt to suppress further discussion on this subject as you, who do not have control over what gets posted on this list, could possibly have mounted. So my question is, do you really believe that people can see yr distinction between wishing so vocally and aggressively that a subject will go away and an impulse to suppress it? I don't think "nominalist" is a fair or accurate label because it implies that standing is the only goal and source of this negative power. Standing may be a measure of how much one benefits but it is not necessarily a measure of how much one encourages the influence of this power on the scene. One may benefit a lot from "playing the power game" without ever becoming a name, or one may encourage the power influence tremendously without benefitting that much. Perhaps more important, yr nominalist label does not hint at how far-ranging the negative effects of the power game are. These effects run the gamut from pressures on writers to behave and write in certain ways to misuses of theoretical discourse to confusion of poetic value with a whole range of factors that have little or nothing to do with such value. Power may not be the sole cause or explanation of these and other problems, but it definitely helps to keep them all going, it definitely influences writers in ways that make it very difficult (increasingly difficult) for them to cut through the shit. To say that the issue for Gary or Colleen or me is "which poet has power and which does not" is completely wrong. This is not the big issue for any of us. If there was a way to talk about the power problem without ever naming names, I would do it. (I try to avoid naming names as much as possible. I think if you went back and looked at all my posts on the subject you would see that I almost never bring up names myself.) But that's not possible in the face of so much denial that is supposedly backed up by people's personal experiences, stories, anecdotes, lots of names and specifics. I couldn't agree more that "intentionality is of the essence of mind." But this is not a reason to ignore specific intentionalities, it is a reason to acknowledge and interrogate them--especially when they have such negative effects, effects that subvert the best that we are and try to be. If by saying the need for power is a condition rather than a problem, you mean that our condition here today (or in the past, for that matter) is inevitable, then I must strongly disagree. Our condition is not inevitable, which is why we can and must struggle to improve it. The need for power may never go away, but that's no reason not to fight the ways it specifically manifests itself in our lives. Talking about power is not the only way to fight its negative effects. I never said it was. On the contrary, I have always supported the scene in a variety of ways, outside of doing and circulating my own work. In fact, I think I've done more in these terms than many of the people who like to bring this up as an argument against my belief that power should be more openly discussed. Lastly, another variation on yr own words: the problem of young poets today is not that they can't publish their own work or find others to bring out their work in obscure, inexpensively produced editions or mags, the problem is that of a literary world increasingly organized to erase this oppositional witness. An important part of this organization is the built-in denial which comes roaring out with a vengeance if anyone tries to point it out or talk about it. Yrs, Spencer On Tue, 11 Apr 1995, Tom Mandel wrote: > Well, by referring to you as Spencer Selby in my post, Spencer, > I didn't mean to turn my back on our relationship but rather > to indicate exactly with whom I'd had the correspondence. I > greatly enjoy my friendship with you. Your intransigence > (what you refer to as my inability to get you to agree with > me) is one of the attractions of the friendship, not a negative > at all. "Opposition is true friendship" (for $50 and a chance > at the weekend cruise, identify that quotation). > > I think my calling your position nominalist is fair as well; again > I don't mean to reduce it in any way. Nor, really, do I think I > said that you are wrong. It's hard to crack the crowd as a newcomer > in poetry as in most other such little worlds. Further, it's hard > to have shifts in your position accepted or appreciated as you > go along in your career - a related matter which you don't treat. > Many are those who, comfortable with the poet of _EncY_ - my > first book - are a good deal less comfortable with the one who > wrote _Letters of the Law_ my most recent. A personal example > but hardly an exclusive one. The world trades on recognizability, > it's not surprising. > > When I say that the authority of writing as an activity is what > matters, I sure don't mean it's all that matters to editors or > even to readers. It's to writers that it's all that ought to > matter. In any case, if we understand anything from a century > of philosophical analysis whose sole aim sometimes seems to > show it, it is that "matters" only parses as "matters to X." > Intentionality is of the essence of mind. > > Thus, when I say that the issue of power as you raise it > bores me, I mean just that. Not at all to make it more > difficult to "solve" this "problem," but to recognize that > it won't be "solved" because it is not a "problem" but a > condition. In a way I like it. I like the agon, and I like > knowing that I can turn away from the agon. Often, I find, > I am satisified with the difficulty of life. I don't wish > for a world in which the minute you wrote something > wonderful, huzzahs wd rise from all corners - a universal > egalitarian response to new and anonymous brilliance > (altho there is no greater pleasure I don't think than > to experience the same: the first time I heard Lee Ann > Brown's writing or Melanie Nielsen's or Jessica Grim's, > for example). > > What about the value of struggle, anybody have a yen for > that? I do decidedly. > > Finally, I well remember the first time I ran a reading > series; it was with Ron Silliman, at the Grand Piano in > SF in 1977. Immediately, people began bugging us to give > them readings, and we did put a lot of people on (two a > week for a long time). At the same time, we commanded no > authority whatever, who were we? We just had a coffee > house space. Anyone else cd have had a coffee house > space too, and put on readings. Yet, we were treated as > if we possessed some power and territory, and folks > wanted a peace of it. > > The theory of poetic space behind this is that of a closed > and finite space with operators in place; that's your > theory too, I conclude, Spencer. But I think poetic > space is like an extensible puzzle. It exists and has > a set of features at its edges, and you hew something > new to extend that space while relating to it. At the > same time, you create a new space for that space to > occupy too. You, for example, started Sink magazine. > You will remember that my first advice to you when > you showed me issue one, was that you should publish > new writers, rather than making a new venue for all > of us. I don't think I am convictable on your charges, > in other words. It's boring to talk about the > problems of breaking in or of making something genuinely > new, but not boring to do so, nor boring to call it > out when you see it and to publish it. > > Tom Mandel > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 23:33:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: poetic consistency & another take on jazz & poetry In-Reply-To: <199504130617.AA10860@mail.eskimo.com> To Lisa Samuels & Joe Amato - Consider what a poet's voice might be, though. It doesn't have to be a consistent tone of voice or some kind of standardized characterization. It can be more like, you know, a voice. This was said much better in a poem by, I think Ntozake Shange, years ago (for which I don't have the reference at hand). Her take was you can _always_ tell Al Green or Marvin Gaye's voices no matter what they are singing about. Charlie Parker or Ornette Coleman always sound like themselves whether they're playing a slow ballad or a fast blues. Amiri Baraka's essay "How You Sound" has some relevance here too. Don't let the workshop's sense of "poetic voice" take away the range of your own voice. -Herb Levy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 16:38:42 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Standing "no poetry does not have politics, tho it may have political "subjects" and be u sed politically. snore, " says Ed Foster. I'm just on my way home for Easter and its Passover too and I wonder what happens if the terms are moved a little. The "politics" question is pervasive and there are answers from W.C.Williams, Robert Creeley and Alan Davies that come to my mind that recognise that poetry is more like what Ed has said. But what if the question were "religion"? my answer would be like Ed's answer to the "politics" question. "no poetry does not have religion, etc...." It would once have been a more important question for the arts (including poetry) ---- "religion"? No e-mail, no teaching, until Wednesday next week, just a bunch of third year B.A. essays on Poussin to keep me happy....Cheers. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 08:33:32 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lisa Samuels Subject: Re: poetic consistency & another take on jazz & poetry In-Reply-To: <199504131037.GAA149024@darwin.clas.Virginia.EDU>; from "Herb Levy" at Apr 12, 95 11:33 pm dear Herb Levy -- i did not mean to say any shop had robbed me of voice, but rather to respond to joe amato's question about Why this idea of poetic consistency was around. yes, inhabiting written language with the inflections of one's spoken voice has got to be desirable. & happens whether we will or no, i should think. & i like your reminder of how the musical can speak to this -- lisa samuels ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 05:43:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: What Is Digest? James Sherry wrote: > >I recently changed my relationship to poetics server by subscribing in >Digest mode because I couldn't keep up with all the messages. And it is a shock to me how much my feelings about the listserv have changed: > I am no longer following the arguments. I often delete the entire message. When I read the message, the individual messages don't stand out as they used to. The sense of community seems to have been fostered by the volume in individual messages. I still get from one to five personal messages a day and value them immensely, but the listserv seems not to be a community in "Digest mode". It is the other who is not me. Maybe I am alone in this, but I wonder if anyone else has similar or different responses to the new mode. Can "Digest" really digest the material and does that mean it re-morphs the material into an indistinguishable mass of components? > I've done the "digest" options with a couple of the high-tech marketing communications listserv groups I'm on and had exactly the same reaction that you've had. It reifies the discourse in a very curioius way. I may be away from my email for about 3 weeks next month, followed by another 2 weeks shortly thereafter, and have thought about using the digest option just to keep from having days like yesterday in which I got a full 50 messages, over 40 from the poetics list, being multiplied out by 21. But that reaction to Digest-ism is a worry. Ron ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 05:47:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Standing Ed Foster wrote: > >no, poetry does not have politics, tho it may have political "subjects" and be used politically. snore, > Wrong, Ed, all poetry has politics, none moreso than the poetry that claims it has none. Hell, even birds and bees have politics. (In Hawaii, the dominant ecological niches are fairly unstable. The dominant urban burb of the 1950s, the bulbul, is not that of the late '80s, the mynah. One sees the hand of polis everywhere.... People are starving. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 06:04:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: true friendship Tom wrote: "Opposition is true friendship" (for $50 and a chance >> at the weekend cruise, identify that quotation). >> Since nobody's picked up the prize, I'll wager it's Duncan, perhaps Duncan quoting or paraphrasing Blake. I could use the cruise. Ron ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 09:57:38 -0400 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: Poetry/Jazz, Hemphill, etc. Sheila Murphy sd: >I share Charles Alexander's interest in hearing about other people's >collaborations involving words and music. Just this past week, I >collaborated in a performance of my poems performed as a sonata (that is, >equal voicing, rather than accompanied) with Megha Morganfield, gifted >performer on Celtic harp. We've now been working together for two years, >following a program we gave at a gallery here in Phoenix. We did a cassette >tape called "The Weight and Feel of Harps" a while back, and it's been well >received. a selection of Sheila's work w/ Megha Morganfield can be heard this week on the InYrEar free poetry hotline: 216-221-8940. the fidelity of longdistance phone lines probably dont do justice to their work, alas... luigi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 10:08:16 -0400 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: Poetry/Jazz yet another item for the audiography: listmember Micheal Basinski's recordings w/ the East Buffalo Media Association... lbd ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 10:31:15 -0400 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: Poetry/Jazz etc... i am such an Idiot! > >Sheila Murphy sd: > >>I share Charles Alexander's interest in hearing about other people's >>collaborations involving words and music. Just this past week, I >>collaborated in a performance of my poems performed as a sonata (that is, >>equal voicing, rather than accompanied) with Megha Morganfield, gifted >>performer on Celtic harp. We've now been working together for two years, >>following a program we gave at a gallery here in Phoenix. We did a cassette >>tape called "The Weight and Feel of Harps" a while back, and it's been well >>received. > >a selection of Sheila's work w/ Megha Morganfield can be heard >this week on the InYrEar free poetry hotline: 216-221-8940. the >fidelity of longdistance phone lines probably dont do justice >to their work, alas... > >luigi that number should be: 216-321-1328, not my home phonenumber. ^^^^^^^^^^^^ my appologies for those wasting a phonecall... tho it's nice to hear a coupla human voices now attached to the pixels. lbd ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 10:40:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marisa A Januzzi Subject: Re: Standing In-Reply-To: <199504130725.AA08262@mailhub.cc.columbia.edu> Re: Tony Green's recent post... Religion is the sex of the '90's. Notice how much momentum can build here about power, politics, money, sex, and reputations, but religion! After rereading Faust (Mephistopheles tells Faust he has to say "come in" 3x before it's possible) I agree that maybe there is no poetry without religion. Come in? Marisa Januzzi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 10:49:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Re: true friendship In-Reply-To: <199504131307.JAA04373@mailhub.acsu.buffalo.edu> from "Ron Silliman" at Apr 13, 95 06:04:39 am Ron, "Jerusalem" is full of ruminations on friendship especially deceitful friendship and "half" friendship. Maybe that was Duncan's source? Otherwise, I like (without the word "friendship" though): "The duty of Opposition is to turn out the government." (John Diefenbaker) or "There is nothing more dreadful to an author than neglect, compared with which reproach, hatred and opposition are names of happiness." (Samuel Johnson) > > Tom wrote: > > "Opposition is true friendship" (for $50 and a chance > >> at the weekend cruise, identify that quotation). > >> > Since nobody's picked up the prize, I'll wager it's Duncan, perhaps > Duncan quoting or paraphrasing Blake. > > I could use the cruise. > > Ron > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 11:38:17 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Alan Golding Subject: Re: Knowledge & empowerment (... In-Reply-To: note of 04/12/95 01:39 Associate Professor of English, U. of Louisville Phone: (502)-852-5918; e-mail: acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu Not to invalidate Sheila's observation about airport bookstores, since overall it seems right on, but to offer an odd twist to it: the equal-best bookstore (along with one other) for poetry in Louisville is, strangely enough, at the Louisville airport. It's a Waterstone's, which I think is originally a British chain. It's the only airport bookstore where I've ever even seen poetry, and they actually have real, legitimate shelves of it with a diverse range of real books(i.e., not just rod McKuen or bowdlerized Dickinson). Alan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 11:37:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Spencer's response to my explanations Spencer- Yes, we are friends, unless something happened to make that not so I mean. & my explanation of why I used "Spencer Selby" not "Spencer" in my previous post simply stands. That's why I used your full name. Charles Alexander, btw, refers to me in his posts as "Tom Mandel" - tho we are good friends. Ron Silliman, one of my old friends and someone I love deeply, call me Tom Mandel here, an dI just called him by his full name. Why is this a problem? Or have I mistakenly taken it to be one for you? I don't know how to respond to most of what you cover in this most recent post other than to say that the question for me is what is something I can use productively inb my work. If you can use this set of related topics productively in your work, then that's a significant fact. Certainlyk, I was not trying to downplay the element of what I called agon in the rleation any poet sustains to what we seem to want to call the poetic community. I just pointed out that there is a vector of utility there also, something to push against which one can always count on being there to push against. Perhaps foolishly, I accept, even cherish the sense of exile that attaches to my sense of what it means that I Tom Mandel am a poet. I don't want the world to be different. That said, I can't question the accuracy of your analysis as you draw out the manifold dishonesties and confusions attaching to this same world which I am saying I do not wish to change. That is, it is not this effect on the world which in my work I pose, in the sense that Duncan has been quoted here, as the ideal of poetry's power, and strive so to realize. Tom Mandel ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 11:49:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: true friendship "Opposition is true friendship." I'm not at home but in Chicago for the weekend (Pesach), so I can't quote c&v, but the quote is from William Blake's _The Marriage of Heaven & Hell._ But, Ron yr close enuff -- the creews is yews. With respect to poetry and politics, surely all poetry is politics as you say; can Ed Foster mean to deny this? Is there not some;ting to struggle for and sustain? Can someone quote (or I will upon my return home) the lengthy blake passage (from one of the prophetic books) which begins: "What is the price of experience is it bought for a song?" Tom Mandel ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 08:50:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: "Indians R Us" In-Reply-To: <9504130858.AA15437@isc.sjsu.edu> Forgive me for being shocked, but "PC Movement"??? come on -- Did I miss something -- Has the U.S. government actually recorded an apology to the Indians (as they did belatedly to the interned Japanese-Americans)? Are we all apologized out? I just had this same discussion with somebody on my campus, somebody who is violently opposed to affirmative action, who asked me how long we had to pay for the sins of the past. Looked to me that the action was pretty much the other way -- that is, 250 years of several million Africans working for no pay + all former Indian lands producing capital for non-Indians = one hell of a lot of money that has gone into the economies in which we breathe, and to the republic for which we stand -- Now, I don't see much point or humor in the suggestion that all putatively white people jump off a bridge (which one? London in the desert?) -- nor do I think we should each run out into the street (or into our poems) shouting apologies -- nor do I know of any Indian who wants us to -- But, and here's what I find so troubling, what a transformation from the attitude expressed by one fairly good writer some years back: "Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away; yet if it be God's will that it continue until the wealth piled by the bondman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still must it be said that the judgements of the Lord are true and righteous altogether." This from someone so PC in his attitudes that he once supported the export of all black people from the US, Abraham Lincon (not the most progressive in his attitudes towards American Indians either). A good read, for those interested, is Gerald Vizenor's _Manifest Manners: Postindian Warriors of Survivance_ -- (read his wild novel _The Heirs of Columbus_ while you're at it; you'll be glad you did.) Meanwhile, let's shoot a few flaming arrows into all these straw men that keep popping up --(or is that virtual straw persons? the market near my office now sells tubs of yellowish substance advertised as "Real Margarine") -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 10:47:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: poetic consistency lisa & herb, one reason i bring up the question of 'voice' as such is that it would seem to (stubbornly) persist despite all sorts of discourses as to the self's 'fragmented' or multiplicitous state... that is, there is on the one hand a tendency to celebrate our more schizoid impulses (and this is an absurdly terse way of intimating deleuze & guattari as well as work in cognitive science that predicates a more fluid, if you will, neural substrate) and on the other a reluctance on the part of poets (in general now) to give up on 'voice' as a category that reveals some (essential?) quality (of presence, what have you)... i often wonder whether the 'me' that surfaces through, say, thirty odd poetic artifacts would so surface had i appended a different name to each... as so many have demonstrated, name alone is a powerful incitement to read accordingly... but also this sense of voice, as you indicate lisa, seems to find its origin in a more primal urge to identify (i think this is what you're saying anyway)...and if on the one hand (this remark is BOUND to conflate threads) we've given up, some of us, on a crudely conceived identity politics, on the other we've NOT given up (institutionally speaking, that is) on attempting to cull some sense of authorial identity from the work, however aesthetically or personally conceived... or so it seems... as a corollary there's also this question of ownership of the poem (a question that itself is problematized with the advent of things and practices electronic)and whether and to what extent 'voice' of the individual couldn't be predicated along more social, shared coordinates, as a form of social contract, if you will, a set of conventions shared uniquely yet in pre-meditated ways... i ramble... but just so//// joe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 13:57:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Blake quote for Tom Dear Tom: It's "Enion's Complaint" from _The Four Zoas_. Here's the passage starting with "What is the price of Experience?": "What is the price of Experience? do men buy it for a song? Or wisdom for a dance in the street? No, it is bought with the price Of all that a man hath, his house, his wife, his children. Wisdom is sold in the desolate market where none come to buy, And in the wither'd field where the farmer plows for bread in vain. "It is an easy thing to triumph in the summer's sun And in the vintage & to sing on the waggon loaded with corn. It is an easy thing to talk of patience to the afflicted, To speak the laws of prudence to the houseless wanderer, To listen to the hungry raven's cry in wintry season When the red blood is fill'd with wine & with the marrow of lambs. "It is an easy thing to laugh at wrathful elements, To hear the dog howl at the wintry door, the ox in the slaughter house moan; To see a god on every wind & a blessing on every blast; To hear sound of love in the thunder storm that destroys our enemies' house; To rejoice in the blight that covers his field, & the sickness that cuts off his children, While our olive & vine sing & laugh round our door, & our children bring fruits & flowers. "Then the groan & the dolor are quite forgotten, & the slave grinding at the mill, And the captive in chains, & the poor in the prison, & the soldier in the field When the shatter'd bone hath laid him groaning among the happier dead. "It is an easier thing to rejoice in the tents of prosperity: Thus could I sing & thus rejoice: but it is not so with me." I want a cruise, too, Tom! Geef me zee cruise! Yours, Gary ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 15:03:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: FUNKHOUSER CHRISTOPH Subject: Voice mail without the voice (was Digest) Dear James, I switched to digest literally moments after you scorched (me &) the easily restorable anti-hegemony project a few weeks back. I find it preferable reading through POETICS once a day, in the morning -- part extension of citrus & zazen ritual, part socio-artistic research -- rather than throughout all hours. The around-the-clock version became too twiggy & psychically draining. What it might be like if we were all locked in a Wojnarowiczian warehouse all day with each other!? I'm neither more or less inclined to print out or respond to what goes on around here as a digester. Though that's probably more a function that my main areas of interest / research / concern have yet to acheive much, if any, sustained inquiry over the past 2 years in this space. Though your question "Can digest really digest the material & does that mean it re-morphs the material into an indistinguishable mass of components" touches on something I've been considering -- D. N. Rodowick's essay "Audiovisual Culture and Interdisciplinary Knowledge," in _New Literary History_ (1995, 26: 111-121) describes ours as an "audiovisual culture," "a distinct era driven by innovations in telecommunications technology that is promoting the convergence of previously distinct media and forms of data transmission." "Convergence" is one of the most definitive & emphatic buzzwords going, an academically sanctioned phrase, even, at Brown U. Rodowick's essay discusses how our formally organic public space (warehouse, salon, happening, cafe &c.) is becoming increasingly serialized and dispersed in space. So, yeah, the digest -- & to be clear, the medium -- certainly reduces our chances of instantaneous rapid fire cranial exchange. But it doesn't necessarily seem that these texts are made up of / by "indistinguishable mass of components," or are virtually re-morphed (?) material. Our letters, words, are leveled to the algorithmic manipulation of binary code, and have become "an abstract computational space." (Rodowick) But in our familiarities with people on the list, can't we say expressivity, if not personality, seems to come through in postings? People are relatively consistent in tone (or drone, you pick), so it doesn't seem as if the components are completely indistiguishable, but maybe. Whatever I am saying, it does *seem* like a "space" of some sort, &, given what my sense of the Electronic Poetry Center is, are *working* within. POETICS seems intrinsically transversal, a hybridization of talking, typewriter, telephone (attitude, & other things). We only know of each other's readings by either public or private response. Let's acknowledge an abyss. It's an undefined and barely definable, highly contestable "space", and maybe we could chat about it until we are as blue in the face as in dream. As far as such engagement goes, amongst poets, who wants to discuss and contest what it is, or isn't? Speak and you shall be read in this space! (Not only that, your ideas will be archived and quoted.) Most non-elite poets are resistant to, if not violently against, technology (contributing somewhat to their own self-isolation) in sometimes connected yet always fragmentary cults around the world. We have it and (dare I say) should be talking about it. It's an easily erasable slate, yes, but digest, for me, presents materials in a healthy way, given the medium. I was writing about the Sun Ra listserv, Saturn, last month, whose work I've been most impressed by as it serves to preserve and provide a continuum for an entire language and subculture. Some of what appeals to me about that particular list (which I also take as digest): There are quiet, resting periods on Saturn, spans of days at a time where there is no talk at all. This attribute testifies to the > sanity of the list, whereby the persons involved also take time away from it for other satisfying and nurturing creative activities. It is non-obsessive and progressive, "inexplicable presence - Warm, intuitive/Rare vital - Essence energy" as Sun Ra says in the poem "Essence Energy". (Extensions Out, 16) Sun Ra compared words to magic substances: they are combined and a reaction takes place. Words can change things. Such a concept is comparable with the living word, the "nommo" of the West African Dogon tribe where "The word is for all in this world; it must be exchanged, so that it goes and comes, for it is good to give and to receive the forces of life." (Jahn 124) In our unliberated present, in our non-oppositional tone on Saturn, we find not a dialectic as much as what Kamau Brathwaite calls a "tidalectic," a flow, and ebbing and flooding, erasure, coverage, interrelation, "like the movement of the ocean, coming from one continent, touching another, and then receding from the islands into echoes." (Brathwaite 9). Such a poetics sees expression as a journey setting out from a continent to a set of islands which is barely coming to be understood by its inhabitants. I have nothing to propose and I am proposing it chris f (w/ a shout out to kingston, ontario & santa cruz) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 15:21:17 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: Arts and Sciences Dean's Office Subject: Re: true friendship quote ID = isn't it "In opposition is true friendship"? Blake - Marriage of Heaven & Hell (Proverbs section?) Cruise to where? Please say New Zealand.... Hank Lazer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 14:09:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Jack Smith In-Reply-To: <199504130545.WAA16675@whistler.sfu.ca> from "Kevin Killian" at Apr 12, 95 10:45:38 pm I always thought the greatest sentence ever uttered in a U.S. film was this one from Tony Curtis: "yawnduh lies da castle of my fawduh." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 14:22:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: jazz/music In-Reply-To: <199504121235.FAA08677@whistler.sfu.ca> from "FUNKHOUSER CHRISTOPH" at Apr 11, 95 11:39:14 pm Can I use this discussion of jazz and poetry to ask whether anyone out there can tell ne something I have been wondering about for a long time? Last I heard of Albert Ayler, he was found in the East River. Is that right? But I want to know the latest on Don Ayler. When Albert died, Don was reportedly in some house for the criminally insane or something. Can anyone tell me more about the story of these two great musicians I was lucky enough to hear live and up close? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 18:28:24 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kali Tal Subject: New Poetry from Viet Nam Generation, Inc. Viet Nam Generation & Burning Cities Press are pleased to announce the publication of a new volume of poetry, Number 6 in our White Noise series: M.L. Liebler, STRIPPING THE ADULT CENTURY BARE ISBN: 1-885215-09-6. $12. 88pp. Perfect bound. STRIPPING THE ADULT CENTURY BARE can be ordered directly from Viet Nam Generation, Inc., 18 Center Rd., Woodbridge, CT 06525. 203/387-6882. Fax: 203/389-6104. Please include $1.50 for shipping and handling. "M.L. Liebler writes with passion and an intense understanding of his subject matter. He wants his poems to catch fire in his audience's heart and burn down the apathy, ignorance, and hatred planted there and nurtured by not taking responsibility for one's own action. Liebler is primarily a performance poet, his poetry meant for the physical act of speaking out and talking back." --Faye Kicknowsway "M.L. Liebler is on that great stream of the American Bard. His poems are a mix of advanced politics, lyrics of a tightly woven family, and the hunger to perform poetry and to perform it well. He is searching admist the throbs of the consonant and the flights of the vowel for a new and better life for all." --Ed Sanders "M.L. Liebler is a tremendous source of poetry energy in The Motor City and beyond." --John Sinclair "M.L. Liebler is a complex mix of poet, university professor, performance poet, Lollapalooza performer and Christian writer... he has played a vital role in keeping the poetry scene alive during its dark days of the 70s and 80s." --_The Detroit News_ "Liebler writes close clipped verse of a political bent that reflects his anger and angst over the aftermath of the Vietnam War. He plumbs his soul, searching ut a distinctive voice that reflects his Michigan homeland and extends the legacy of noted Midwestern poet James Wright." --_The Woodstock Times_ BLUE (for Lawrence Dike) The cold is blue, Unexposed Blood. Wailing Through softly bruised Memories. Tender mercies that change Everything. Birth rewritten On a transparent window Shade. That's you rolling up Tomorrow in the Wind. New futures always lay Claim to investments that No one Wants to make. --M.L. Liebler ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 18:54:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Knowledge & empowerment / electronic loss, you may be right, and yet there's much to be said for personal libraries, not dependent on anything but desire to read. then again, where does one get the issue of a magazine from a generation earlier if it's not in one's library already? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 00:12:02 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: poeticslist serve and desire / the 39 steps X-To: Edward Foster sleeps leased this bauble boo--boo. a cut and trusted too cute dream agreed to pay for the privelege. lurkers awake and step! to angels whispering "you grass". his tread-worn flat. trees keening out of a naive silence - and counting ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 19:14:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Standing sorry, ron, but it's not true unless your name is althusser. yes, i recognize the line, but viewing politics as the great ur-god is just mystification, yet another muse. the french, thank heavens, went home. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 00:11:54 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Tom Cruise X-cc: Gary Sullivan the harassment of the innocent by the consciousness of the infamous or - an embarassment of breeches (I'll be in the pool, or asleep in a cabin. Please give me a shout when the deck games get going.) O blister! my puree to fantasy. "Listen you dutiful squirt." 'Poetree eez note a lugzuoree' Necessity? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 20:08:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Brief Statistical Update Just thought it might be of interest... The official poetics list archive, as of Dec. 93, now contains 376436 words ... Wonder how that compares to say, a small (?) encyclopedia? Loss ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 20:17:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Re: Knowledge & empowerment / electronic In-Reply-To: <199504132257.SAA29434@mailhub.acsu.buffalo.edu> from "Edward Foster" at Apr 13, 95 06:54:57 pm > loss, you may be right, and yet there's much to be said for personal > libraries, not dependent on anything but desire to read. then again, > where does one get the issue of a magazine from a generation earlier > if it's not in one's library already? This brings up an interesting point. First, not to overlook the richness of one's library. A constant source of encouragement. But the scene is changing. And poetry people might wish to take note. I still insist that an early issue of _C_ is hardly available to most. But think of this... big libraries, for example, U of Mich and U of CA Berkeley, are putting tremendous efforts into _converting_ past issues of magazines to digital format. What do they choose? You guessed it, the 100 most used mags from Readers Guide or whatever. Like there aren't enough copies of _Time_ or even academic journals around. UC Berkeley just announced a project like this to the tune of $4 million, $1 million per year over four years... So where does that leave us? We must see that _our_ backlist makes it into this digital source of available info. That is why I've been so enthusiastic about the cataloging project at hand. And I've had some offers from some good publishers about putting back issues up. (_Witz_ for one, is very active in this regard. And Luigi Bob Drake is working assiduously with TREE.) So really, though I _adore_ my copies of C, of which I have a couple and read with great relish, I cannot resist reflecting on my poetic upbringing and the comments like "when Duncan wrote ... in _Caterpillar_ and though I wanted to know, it was out of reach. Hence, Duncan was removed from a genuine interest... All to say, a recognition of the prospects at hand. I again encourage magazine publishers to think in such a way that will land this material into hands of interested readers. I urge those of you out there who are publishing think about this; let's act. I've secured computer resources and this is an opportunity not to extend production but to move these words to people who may very well be receptive... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 19:44:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lindz Williamson Subject: Re: "Indians R Us" In-Reply-To: <199504131825.LAA08539@unixg.ubc.ca> On Thu, 13 Apr 1995, Aldon L. Nielsen wrote: > Forgive me for being shocked, but "PC Movement"??? come on -- > Did I miss something -- Has the U.S. government actually recorded an > apology to the Indians (as they did belatedly to the interned > Japanese-Americans)? Are we all apologized out? > Aldon, I just don't see how apologies really make anything better. I was just downtown and the Hudson's bay Company was advertising its 325 birthday, boasting of 325 years of service and excellence- or as I view it 300 years of rape and pillage, but that doesn't mean I'm going to feel guilty about the bikini I bought. Just as how my Japanese friends feel nothing for the documents that the Canadian gov't released concerning the Japanese redress mov't. How does sorry and $500 compensate for the destruction of a family. I acknowledge the shit in my ancestor's history and believe that it should never be forgotten, but I will not kiss anymore ass to compensate for being born white. Nor do i think relabeling people and cultures is going to eliminate racism and that's where the PC mov't drives me nuts. The Canadian gov't has recently put a lot of investment in the ministry of Ethnic Affairs, and is now shocked that they are receiving bad press for reverse discrimination. The word ethnic is now assumed to mean anything non-white. Shouldn't I be offended that my Norwegian, Scottish, German, Newfie background is considered non ethnic. Likewise would you want to be published just because you were considered to be an ethnic writer, not necessarily talented? Lindz Ps Hey Ryan congrats on the upcoming book, can't wait to read it. Now if only George (Jorge) would plug you, me, and Reg for that anthology life would be just fine. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 19:47:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lindz Williamson Subject: music In-Reply-To: <199504120652.XAA02261@unixg.ubc.ca> Just picked up the new Morphine disc, it's beautiful, I highly recommend it, there' something sos eductive about the baritone sax Lindz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 23:39:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ted Pelton Subject: nyc bookstores I'm surprised to hear that NYC doesn't have good bookstores. Living in a place that really doesn't have good bookstores, Sheboygan Wisconsin, I was looking forward to my NEH Summer Sem this June & July in NYC to catch up on the new books I hear everyone on the list talking about. Imagine my surprise upon hearing that the Big Apple is so bereft of good books! I would extend what Sheila says out from airports to almost all bookstores -- Waldenbooks, Little Professor (those the chains we have here), etc, as well as most of the respectable coffee-house types. But there is at least one good bookstore in the state of Wisconsin that I know of, and another that's passable, so I would assume there's at least one or two in NY. In anticipation of my summer there, could I hear from anyone who wants to contest Kenneth Goldsmith's sad assessment of NY's finest (bookstores, that is)? I don't expect to be able to find everything in SPD, but find it hard to believe I won't be able to find any of it there. And there's no Fodor's radical poetries guidebook, unfortunately. Ted Pelton ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 23:40:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ted Pelton Subject: Re: digest For me with digest it's changed space that's at issue. I did it (set digest option) to save space, so my files weren't enormous lists and so I could just zip through quickly. But a corresponding inattentiveness has come along with it. I spend less time, but/so I spend less time, if you see what I mean. And it's easier to let things back up. My silence for about the past month has been due to starting to let my digest messages back up to the point where there were five, then ten, then more and it didn't look like much so I wasn't so alarmed at first. Then I realized the work in store for me catching up and let it go even longer. Now I'm getting back to it, but had to decide whether to catch up or start again with the current messages. If I read something that I wanted to respond to but was posted 2 weeks ago, I couldn't respond, really, and I did, and didn't. So I'm doing both at once: reading messages 2-3 weeks old that I can't talk to (Hallmark and Why Teach, for instance) and current messages I can. It's strangely like literature: reading the past that's alluded to in current conversation as well as who's doing what now. I didn't like digest at first, but now I'm getting into it. I never used to read everything, but selected things by subject when I didn't have time. Now I at least skim everything and the "community" is there, even if it is arbitrarily selected as Loss suggests. It isn't as easy to save particular entries anymore either, nor is it as easy to find things in my own archives. There's good and bad, again as Loss tells us. As for another subject Loss raises, that all this is saved, I wonder if it ever will be read. At first I was unnerved by the fact that these messages were all saved and that this thus constituted "publication" in a sense -- I'm so horrified by most of what I write that most of it gets thrown out. About half the time I write messages I erase them before sending them out, and that's just because I don't even want them read once, let alone them being electronicly stored forever (or at least until SUNY goes bankrupt). But with a medium that produces so much language that we have trouble keeping up with it in our own time, I wonder what the chances are of these things ever being read. It reminds me of a desire a pop-culture scholar expressed to me a few years ago: that every moment of television broadcasting, commercials and all, on all channels and cables stations, should be recorded somewhere and preserved, to be a record of this medium, its expressions, just as they happen. What would result (and perhaps already is resulting if someone somewhere is already doing this, which wouldn't surprise me) is an amount of stored information far in excess of what could actually be experienced: one can't nearly watch everything that is happening right now, much less everything that was broadcast at some time in the past (now, from some future vantage point). OK, I'm sure _someone_ will delve into this stuff ("Hi, future! Have you cured AIDS yet?") but its enormity seems so unmanageable to me that my hat is off to that future scholar. But then I haven't gone into these archives myself. Loss, how is it organized? Could you look for a specific post, or sender? I suppose I'm thinking of future digest recipients, as it were, reading a past as if a present (although technological innovations will of course one day make all this stuff we're so enamored of resemble 8-track tape or hieroglyphed papyrus). Could I just pick out posts by, say, Jim Pangborn (hi, Jim!), and skip all the other stuff? I suppose that which is saved can always be indexed, later if not now. But think of it accumulating, day after day, year after year, in many more forums that we aren't even aware of now. Will there come a point when we decide "Fuck the present, there's far too much past to deal with"? I think the tendency will always be (and increasingly?) more toward "Fuck the past, I have too much present to deal with". Ted Pelton ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 00:28:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Re: nyc bookstores In-Reply-To: <199504140341.XAA23882@mailhub.acsu.buffalo.edu> from "Ted Pelton" at Apr 13, 95 11:39:49 pm Ted, My thought is that it's always easy, if you live in New York, to say there are no good bookstores. True, I'll go into _any_ bookstore, even the most commercial in hopes of finding _something_ but I can't believe there isn't fun to be had... For one thing, there's an online list of nyc bookstores. If you use gopher and therefore veronica and can do a search like bookstores and new york, you'll get a guide. I always like the French bookstore over (where?) is it Rodkefeller Center (the big Christmas tree) where there's lot's of stuff in foreign languages. There's the "wise men fish here" place. What's the name of that? Mid-town. And of course the Strand. What - Broadway, up from G Village. And there's one place I haven't found since Ted Joans took me there years ago. In the Village, what West Village. Not far from one of those city playgrounds where people play outdoor chess at the same table for years. I wish I could remember the name. It had a store front window and inside, you know the first edition thing, signed copies, etc., but what an incredible place. If anyone on the list could identify this. I'd be grateful. Of course once or twice I've been lucky when in NYC that my visit coincided with the Small Press Expo or whatever it's called, the full range of Hanuman titles, lots of other stuff. But I'd also be interested in hearing about the out of the way place, for the next voyage out from Buffalo. (Not that Buffalo could complain, with Talking Leaves, yet the smaller used places (like I've found in Chicago and New Orleans) are always the charm. There is even a used place across the street from Columbia, no (to the east)? Though I don't think I got anything there that changed my life. But I'd be interested in hearing some names/address of places... All best, Loss ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 00:52:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Re: nyc bookstores (long) In-Reply-To: <199504140341.XAA23882@mailhub.acsu.buffalo.edu> from "Ted Pelton" at Apr 13, 95 11:39:49 pm Ted, I went ahead and go the online list for you. If anyone on the list has comments about any of these - or can identify that spot in the village, I'd be grateful. (Oh yes, Shakespeare and St. Mark's also good for new books...) Here goes: --------------------------------------------------------------------- From ecl@cbnewsj.cb.att.com Fri Feb 19 14:10:04 1993 From: ecl@cbnewsj.cb.att.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.arts.sf.written,rec.answers,news.answers Subject: Bookstores in New York City (NYC) List (rec.arts.books) Keywords: monthly Date: 25 Jan 93 16:35:22 GMT Followup-To: rec.arts.books Organization: AT&T Supersedes: <1992Dec25.223722.3193@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> Archive-name: books/stores/nyc Last change: Sun Jan 24 08:31:30 EST 1993 Changes: (re-arranged order to reflect geography better, a few street numbers added, etc.) Book Source (16th btwn 5th Avenue & Union Square)--name added Cinemabilia (dropped, apparently went out of business) Oriental Culture Enterprises (new hours) Computer Book Works (25 Warren between Church and Broadway) Copies of this article may be obtained by anonymous ftp to pit-manager.mit.edu (18.172.1.27) under /pub/usenet/news.answers/books/stores/nyc.Z. Or, send email to mail-server@pit-manager.mit.edu with the subject line "send usenet/news.answers/books/stores/nyc", leaving the body of the message empty. [Note 1: Yes, I realize that I have covered only Manhattan and New York City covers four other boroughs. Further listings are welcome.] [Note 2: I collected these comments from a variety of people. I personally have no knowledge of many of these places and take no responsibility if you buy a book you don't enjoy. :-) Phone numbers and precise addresses can be gotten by calling directory assistance at 212-555-1212. Call ahead for precise hours, as even when I list them they are subject to change.] [Note 3: I am cross-posting this to rec.arts.sf.written, but the bookstores listed include *all* types of bookstores, so please don't tell me that a particular store has a limited SF section unless I have specifically claimed otherwise.] Working south through Manhattan: ==========UPTOWN============= NRS Books (used) (118th & Amsterdam, across from Columbia U) Cavernous, twisty store; small but often interesting. Mixed salespeople--some very good. A gamble. Identify the mystery quote of the day and get an additional 20% off your purchase. Paul, the owner, used to have a weakness for complete sets--old encyclopedias, bound collections of American Heritage, and so on. Extensive humanities and soc. sci. sections, very reasonable prices, and lots of gems. ??? Used Books (115th & Amsterdam, above the post office) I've never been there--I think they have a lot of used course books. Columbia Univ. Bookstore (Barnes & Noble) (Broadway and 115th) The usual Barnes & Noble selection as well as textbooks for courses at Columbia. Higher prices than many other stores, but a very large selection, even for B&N. The downtown store has textbooks for NYU. Barnard Bookforum (Broadway and 115th) A very good bookstore with many of Barnard's textbooks, plus a generally strong selection and helpful staff. Surprising Russian-language section in the back. Papyrus (Broadway & 114th) A fairly large collection of left-wing books and magazines (on film, literature, etc., as well as politics). "I'm not sure if they're worth a special trip, but check them out if you're in the neighborhood." Pomander Books (955 West End Avenue--also described as Broadway at 107th, on the SW corner, down the stairs) (212-866-1777). A good used-book store. This is the same bookstore that was next to the Thalia. Lots of art books, some hard to find. If it matters, West End runs into Broadway just north of there, which is why the address is misleading. Paperback Discounter (west side of Broadway just south of 94th Street). There are lots of used and otherwise discounted paperbacks, but the collection, which is eclectic and interesting, is--by those very attributes--not very reliable. (They also rent videotapes, and if you look mainly at the signs in the window you'll notice an ad for VCR repair that might distract you from the display of paperbacks in the window.) Black Books Plus (Amsterdam and 94th) Specialty is Black interest and Third World concerns. Funny Business (northwest corner of Amsterdam and 93rd) A comic book store of unknown quality. The Military Bookman (29 East 93rd) (212-348-1280) Specializing in used military books. Their selection is excellent, but they are usually a bit pricey. It's the sort of place that military buffs all know about, but call only as a last resort. They issue a catalog (about 3 times a year), and otherwise engage in mail order. (One poster reports that they contacted him recently about a book he had told them he was looking for at least three years ago, so they keep track of these things.) No credit card/phone orders. Kitchen Arts & Letters, Inc. (1435 Lexington Ave at 93rd) (212-876-5550). Quoting from their brochure: "the country's largest store devoted completely to books on food and wine. With well over 7000 cooking titles and access to thousands of out-of-print titles through our free search service..." From a reader: "While the sale prices at Jessica's Biscuit beat these peoples' full-list prices, this probably is a good place to keep in mind for unusual and hard to find cookery books. Sounds like a fun place to browse, in any case..." Does credit card and phone orders. (Mon 1-6, Tue-Fri 10-6:30, Sat 11-6. Summer hours less regular; mostly closed Saturdays in July and open only 2-3 days per week in August.) The Corner Bookstore (Madison at 93rd) They specialize in children's books and travel books, but they also have a film connection: not only is this the bookstore where Nick Nolte found the "Renata Halpern" children's book in THE PRINCE OF TIDES, it's also just one block south of the red brick fortress/castle facade featured in THE FISHER KING. Murder Ink (Broadway btwn 92nd and 93rd) As you might suspect, it specializes in mysteries and had a very good collection (as did The Mysterious Bookstore). Barnes & Noble Books (Lexington north of 86th) (also downtown) New "super-store" (opened 6/26/92). "The old 86th St. Barnes & Noble has moved around the corner and has expanded into what is certainly one of the finest bookstores in the city. A huge bookstore with a lovely decor, desks for reading, a knowledgeable staff, and a well-stocked (and well-laid-out) selection, this new store is an absolute pleasure. Kudos to B&N on this one." East West Books (Columbus north of 86th) (also downtown) Stocks books on Buddhism, Taoism, Sufism, Indian Religions also New Age, self-improvement, health and healing. Cards, jewelry, audio tapes, incense. Good sized stock. Met Museum Store (5th Avenue & 82nd) They have neat art books, posters, engagement calendars, videos etc. Shakespeare & Co. (81st & Broadway) (also downtown) (212-580-7800) A good, large selection, they're good about getting in the new stuff quickly. One person said, "Much like Coliseum, but closes earlier," but now it has expanded its hours until 11:30 (12:30 on Friday and Saturday nights). It also expanded upstairs a few years ago. Endicott Books (81st & Columbus) A very good selection, with salespeople who like to read (really--this isn't all that common). A good store. Sometimes they sponsor readings by authors. Burlington Books (81st & Madison) Lots of current titles, art books, as well as used books. They'll special order anything, and will do active searches for out-of-print titles. They often buy out estates, so you're almost always bound to find something new each time you go in. Just a block away from the Metropolitan Museum. Definitely worth stopping into. Gryphon Bookshop (2246 Broadway btwn 80th & 81st) They have a nice selection, and will do active searches for one. OK, but too expensive. They have an Annex around the corner (at 246 W 80th off Broadway away from Amsterdam, on the south side of the street, one flight up) that sells everything at 50% off the listed price. That makes it reasonable (in most cases). Enormous lit & history sections. Gryphon has charm and has recently expanded. The new store is on Broadway and is new and shiny, but the old store is around the corner and is dark and twisty and has a mysterious locked closet which contains a vast trove of old L. Frank Baum hardcovers (another poster says these bookcases are in the new store). The Gryphon is probably one of the world centers for Wizard of Oz books. They also do searches. Eeyore's (83rd off Broadway) Children's books; Sunday readings and other activities for kids. Excellent, with a friendly, knowledgeable staff. Storyland (3rd Avenue at 78th) Museum of Natural History Book Store (in the Museum; 77th at CPW) No guarantees, but they used to have an interesting selection of books on nature and natural history. Books & Co (Madison at 74th) Art, literature etc. Wonderful feeling, nice place to shop. Another good literate person's bookstore, reminiscent of Endicott. I've seen celebs shopping there, too (David Byrne; Kathleen Turner) List priced new books, but very eclectic with a philosophy bent. Barnes & Noble (Broadway and 74th) Courtly Music (2067 Broadway btwn 71st and 72nd, suite 27 (on the second floor--not well-labeled on the door)). Hours are 9:45-5:45 Tuesday to Saturday and they also have an 800 number (2-RICHIE). "The focus is on early music, and they have books, instruments, tapes (I don't recall if they have LPs or CDs), instruction tapes and books, and give lessons. I saw someone behind the desk wrapping something, so it looks like they will do mail order. The staff seemed knowledgeable, and xeroxed off a sheet for my friend of local branches of the American Recorder Society for him to contact. All in all a nice shop." Applause Books (211 W. 71st west of Broadway) (212-496-7511) They specialize in film and theatre; some books that can be found nowhere else. Civilized Traveler (Broadway between 66th and 72nd). Opened spring of '92, it's an upscale travel store with guidebooks and maps as well as suitcases and a variety of gadgets and conveniences for travelers. "Their collection isn't vast, but I'm hoping it will build." ==========MIDTOWN============= Argosy (59th btwn Park & Lexington) They are very strong in used hardcover fiction (no sf though), particularly older things from say circa 1920, like James Branch Cabell. They also sell old prints and Americana. Antique and used books, maps, and prints. Some beautiful books, but the owners are major goniffs (thieves) so you'll have to hunt for bargains. It is about five stories high and is one of those books-stacked-up-the-walls-to-the-ceiling places; dim, musty, dense, mysterious. You get the feeling that you could find anything at all there if you only looked long enough. Barnes & Noble (6th Avenue and 57th) Books Nippon (57th btwn 5th & 6th Avenues) Books, cards, magazines in Japanese and English. Fair-sized collection of English language books on a variety of Japanese-related topics, including a large number of art books. Also a large supply of Japanese language books and periodicals. J. N. Bartfield Fine Books (30 W 57th (3rd floor) btwn 5th & 6th Avenues) This is a gallery-like place that carries mostly bound sets of literature. Much of what they carry looks like old versions of the fancy-book-of-the-month club-featuring-the-great-works-of- literature-in-genuine-hand-tooled-leather offers that are available these days. I am not, however, an old book expert so I am not sure if that is a bad thing. I saw an old Vergil edition for $495; this place ain't cheap but may be worth a visit. Rizzoli's (57th btwn 5th & 6th Avenues) Probably the premier art book store in the city. Lots of fun stuff, also foreign books + periodicals A classy place, strong on art books. Opulent bookstore specializing in art/architecture/design books. Italian Bookstore chain. Excellent art, design, and architecture sections. New books at list prices. If you like glossy art books at full price try Rizzoli's. (Also has a downtown and a WTC store) Hacker Art Books (4 West 57th Street) (212-688-7600) Coliseum Books (57th & Broadway Avenue) A good stock of new books, and open until eleven or midnight. An independent. "Coliseum is vast and carries everything that is in somebody's mainstream; it is the only place I know, for example, to purchase a copy of QUOTATIONS OF CHAIRMAN MAO off the shelf." (But see below for a bookstore in Chinatown that also has it.) "Coliseum is large, and has a wide selection. I have not found the staff to be very helpful. I wanted to special order a book, and was told I could only do it Mon-Fri during daytime hours. Looking through the literature section, I found that they had nearly every single Martin Amis book, but none by Kingsley Amis -- Not even LUCKY JIM. They have a terrific poetry section." Forbidden Planet (228 East 59th btwn 2nd & 3rd Avenues) The store on 12th street is better, IMHO. The Mysterious Book Shop (129 W. 56th) Mystery books and so on. It also has its own publishing company so they also have the latest copies of their own line of mysteries. Book-signings by authors. Patelson's (56th & 6th Ave, just behind Carnegie Hall) The best place in NYC for books about music. A huge selection covering all genres. They also are NYC's most-popular source for classical music scores. They can special-order *anything* music-related and will ship. Doubleday (5th Ave & 53rd) -- like Dalton's... They have access to everything, and order what's good, not just what sells. Good store, decent selection, often good salespeople. One of the best mystery book selections in the city outside of the mystery specialty stores. Book-signings. At the front of the store is a bookcase of signed books at regular prices. MOMA Bookstore (in the Museum) (53rd btwn 5th & 6th Avenues) Good selection of books on art, and art books; great poster section; you *don't* have to pay admission to get in. At Christmas they expand across the street, or used to. More neat stuff. B. Dalton (5th Avenue & 53nd) Granddaddy B. Dalton which is worth stopping into if you're in the neighborhood. It is a lot better than the usual run-of-the-mill mall rat B. Daltons and is well-stocked, especially if you are looking for recent releases. Also one on 8th and 6th Avenue. Rand McNally (52nd btwn Lexington & 3rd Avenue) Lots of national and international maps, guide books, globes. Sky Books International Inc (48 E. 50th) Look carefully since this is a small place on the second floor. Their specialty is in military and aviation books and magazines of which they have a good selection. In addition to hardcover and paperback fiction, they have a good deal of stuff on tactics, uniforms, history, aircraft, weapons, etc. They carry a number of magazines which will be of interest to the plane freak and/or model builder. Prices are reasonable but not really bargains. They have a good bulletin board for those interested in buying and selling military paraphernalia. Librarie De France (Rockefeller Center, a small storefront on the Promenade (near the skating rink, opposite the Teuscher's Chocolate shop :-) The Promenade is located off of 5th Avenue, between 49th and 50th streets) (212-581-8810) Run by the same people as the French-Spanish Bookstore, a slightly bigger store downtown on 5th at 19th street, which has many, many more dictionaries. At first, the store appears to be very small, but there is a downstairs section whith about five or six times the space as the upstairs. I had been in the store several times before I discovered the downstairs section. A very large selection of French novels, short stories, non-fiction, etc. Some newspapers, magazines, and records. They also have a reasonably large selection of dictionaries and instruction books for other languages. Prices tend to be high. Staff is usually fluent in French. Kinokuniya Bookstore (49th btwn 5th & 6th Avenues) Japanese books, origami paper, etc. Very large and usually very busy. Japanese tour buses stop here because of its proximity to Rockefeller Center. A bit expensive but much better than any other Japanese bookstore in New York. Drama Book Shop (723 7th Avenue at 48th) (212-944-0595) McGraw-Hill Book Store (48th & 6th Avenue in the basement of the McGraw-Hill building.) Best bet for technical books in the city. An excellent selection for technical books, especially computer books. Their mathematics section is also good, as is their finance section. All publishers. Shinbato (McGraw Hill Bldg) Specializes in Japanese books and books pertaining to the Japanese. Gotham Book Mart (47th btwn 5th & 6th) Excellent poetry, literature, philosophy etc. Practically unique in the world. United Nations Bookshop (General Assembly Building, E 45 St & First Ave) (212-963-7680) Has international affairs books, and UN publications. Urban Center Books (457 Madison Ave) (212-935-3592) Great place for Architecture/Planning/Urban Design Books Travel Bookstore (199 Madison at 35th) Important collection of maps, guides and books. Very knowledgeable staff composed largely of travel-addicts, as opposed to the younger Rand-McNally staff. Many more travel commentary books than strict guide books. Macy's (34th & 7th Avenue) Surprisingly good! Pak Books (27th btwn 3rd & Lexington) Books on Middle Eastern culture, philosophy, etc. ==========DOWNTOWN/VILLAGE============= Samuel French bookstore and reading room (45 W 25th) (212-206-8990) Open 9-5 M-Fri; their ad says "1000's of play titles; out of print archives for Samual French plays; bookstore & reading room open to the public". I've never been there; caveat tourist. Victor Kamk(a)in (149 5th Avenue south of 22nd) (212-677-0776). Russian Language bookstore. It's said to be good. ("That 'a' appears in the Yellow Pages but not in the White Pages. No, I'm really not that compulsive, I just tripped over the discrepancy once.") The French-Spanish Bookstore (5th Avenue and 19th) A very large selection of French and Spanish novels, short stories, non-fiction, etc. Some newspapers, magazines, and records. They also have a reasonably large selection of dictionaries and instruction books for other languages. Prices tend to be high. They have a slightly smaller store uptown in Rockefeller Center. Staff is usually fluent in French or Spanish. Academy Bookstore (18th btwn 5th and 6th Avenues) Small, well-kept. Has strong humanities and soc.sci. section. Also a large supply of used CDs, especially classical and opera! Skyline Bookstore (13 18th btwn 5th and 6th Avenues) Across the street from Academy and apparently owned by the same person. This one has a slightly different focus than Academy. Book-Friends Cafe (18th btwn 5th and 6th Avenues) The store is run by Elizabeth Cymmerman. It specializes in works between 1890 and 1940 and, in addition, serves food and drink. There is also a list of scheduled readings posted on the door. The collection is small but the place seems inviting. The concentration is on biography, hardback fiction, and gracious living. Barnes & Noble (18th & 5th Avenue) The sales annex, which is largely remaindered, used, and discontinued books, and so on, is big. A whole store for half-price stuff and another whole store for textbooks. I think it is less well laid out than Coliseum, but it is also better-stocked on some recent things and is often cheaper. The retail store across 5th Avenue is also huge, with a great reference section. Brunner/Mazel (19 Union Square West, 8th Floor) (212-924-3344) Mostly psychology. ? (14th btwn 6th and 7th Avenues) Spanish-language bookstore. Big selection. Staff speaks Spanish and English. East West Books (5th Avenue btwn 13th and 14th) (also uptown) Stocks books on Buddhism, Taoism, Sufism, Indian Religions also New Age, self-improvement, health and healing. Cards, jewelry, audio tapes, incense. Good sized stock. Books of Wonder (17th & 7th Avenue) Heavenly gift to adults who like children's books. Everything from first editions to the latest paperbacks. They do readings periodically. Periodic newsletter they'll send to customers announcing new books. Revolution Books (16th btwn 5th Ave & Union Square) Huge Marxist & otherwise left wing inventory. Book Scientific (16th btwn 5th Avenue & Union Square) Scientific and technical books; good selection, 10% discount to faculty or university researchers. They'll order books, and ship them. With university ID, there are often extra discounts. Best stock in the city of scientific books, and they offer a 5% discount to students. It's hard to find on its own, being on the 2nd floor with a tiny sign, but it's directly across from the large red "Revolution Books" banner. Book Source (16th btwn 5th Avenue & Union Square) Large used- and rare-book store, on the same floor as Book Scientific. "Nice collection of plays, but I don't remember much else about it." Different Light (Hudson near 14th) Gay and lesbian bookstore. Biography Bookshop (Bleecker & 12th) One poster says, "Nice store, but try the Strand first -- this place is way overpriced." (Editorial note: this probably just means that new books are in general over-priced.) Mysterious Bookstore (Foul Play) (8th Avenue & 12th) Mysteries & horror. Strand Books (828 Broadway & 12th) (212-473-1452 or 800-366-3664) This place is huge. They specialize in reviewers' copies for half-price, used books, and the out of print. "The Strand is one of the world's largest bookstores, and yet the employees there, unlike those in many smaller bookstores, really do know what is on the shelves and can tell you immediately whether or not they have what you are looking for: 'Do you have "The Complete Encyclopedia of Illustration," by...' 'By Heck. No, sorry; we don't.' is a much better answer than : 'Uh, gee, I dunno...look around on the shelves.'" Open Mon-Sat 9:30 AM-9:30 PM, Sun 11 AM-9:30 PM. There's a much smaller branch at the South Street Seaport, and I've seen a mini-branch of a few portable bookracks on Fifth Avenue along Central Park. The Strand has a separate store for antiquarian books next to the main store (not at ground level), accessible by escort or appointment. This store has a good selection of original editions and valuable books. Forbidden Planet (12th & Broadway) "The Science Fiction and Fantasy Flea Market." Books, comic books, posters, magazines--if you're at all into this stuff, it's worth it. (Editorial note: I prefer the Science Fiction Shop--it has a *much* better selection of books, while FP seems too involved in marketing peripheral stuff.) Three Lives Book Store (154 W 10th east of 7th Ave.) A wide variety of subject matter, but seeming to concentrate on women authors, reissues of 1920s and 1930s books. Very interesting place to browse. Judith's Room (Washington btwn Charles & 10th) "I found this when I was hunting for a copy of Christine de Pisan's 'Book of the City of Women' to use in a medieval philosophy class. Not available in any university bookstore I searched, nor in B&N or Strand. Not only did Judith's Room have the book, but the saleswoman had read it and could discuss it, and recommend other books by Christine, and other women of that period." It's also the only feminist bookstore in the city. They sponsor readings. Oscar Wilde Bookstore (Christopher btwn Gay and Greenwich Ave.) Gay and lesbian books. This is a much older store than A Different Light, and was probably the first such in the city. (And, yes, it really is near Gay St!) Pageant, 109 E 9th, off 4th Avenue Woody Allen shot one of the scenes in HANNAH AND HER SISTERS here. Offbeat -- a peculiar mishmash of unexpected gems buried in the dreck. I recently got an absolutely mint first edition of William Gaddis' JR here for $5 -- not the first time I've found a terrific book in this place for next to nothing. Probably some real finds in the incredibly disordered upstairs -- I've never had the patience.... St. Marks Bookshop (St. Mark's Place (8th St) btwn 2nd & 3rd Avenues) "A GREAT bookstore. Excellent selection of books for the downtown intellectual." Though they had some financial difficulties in the past, they are now in the black again. Open fairly late. Smart, sometimes helpful, staff. B. Dalton (8th & 6th Avenue) Worth stopping into if you're in the neighborhood. Well-stocked, especially if you are looking for recent releases. Also one on 5th Avenue & 53nd. Esoterica (61 4th Avenue just north of Astor Place) Large stock of books on Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, occult and New Age. Incense, jewelry, audio tapes. Cooper Square Books (21 Astor Place) (212-533-2595) Very large selection, non-existent staff. Better prices at Tower Books, slightly better staff at St. Mark's Books. ??? (7th btwn 1st Avenue & Avenue A) There is a bookstore (a slight walkdown from the street) on the south side of the street, that has some great stuff and the prices are very good. I don't know its name, or even if it has one, but the owner is a older woman who has been in the neighborhood a long time. She's slightly nutty, but you can always play tourist and avoid confrontation. Shakespeare & Co. (Broadway just north of 4th ) (also uptown) A good, large selection, they're good about getting in the new stuff quickly. Tower Books (Lafayette & 4th) Good selection, open late, reasonable prices, eclectic selection of magazines and out-of-town newspapers. Pretty good discounts for hardbacks and best sellers. Art Bookstore? (Broadway and Bond) An excellent art bookstore. The Art of Reading (Mercer and Bleeker) Piles of used books, and (for a change) strong sections in math & science. They also have loads of used textbooks. Science Fiction Shop (Bleeker west of Thompson) Moved from their old Eighth Avenue location. This one *does* have enough room to swing a (small) cat in; it also shares the second floor with a comics store that is quite good. Rizzoli's (454? W Broadway around Prince) Italian Bookstore chain. Excellent art, design, and architecture sections; probably the premier art book store in the city. New books at list prices. Lots of fun stuff, also foreign books and periodicals. "A classy place, strong on art books." "Opulent bookstore specializing in art/architecture/design books." Has an espresso bar. (Also has an uptown and a WTC store) (For out-of-towners, note that W Broadway is an entirely separate street from Broadway, running parallel to it and about four blocks west.) Guggenheim Soho Museum (Broadway and Prince) A good art bookstore (big surprise, right?). There's absolutely no reason to visit Rizzoli's and not here, or vice versa. (For out-of-towners, note that W Broadway is an entirely separate street from Broadway, running parallel to it and about four blocks west.) Untitled Cards (159 Prince) Before art postcard shops became something to franchise, there were cramped stores like this jammed with an exquisite selection of cards. Another branch on W. Broadway is more spacious and has an extensive art book selection, but lacks the down-home feel of the original. Spring Street Books (169 Spring near Thompson) Another great collection. It is not a large place, but it is filled with wonderful books. The poetry section is quite good, for such a small store. They also have a nice selection of magazines. The recent fiction section is arranged alphabetically by title, rather than by author. Soho Books (351 W Broadway, 1/2 block below Broome) (212-226-3395). Opened May '92. Good assortment of used books in a wide variety of subject areas; biography section seemed especially diverse. Worth dropping into on your way to buy new books at Spring St. Books and Rizzoli. Oriental Culture Enterprises Co, Inc (13-17 Elizabeth,212-226-8461), second floor. Open Friday-Wednesday, 10 am to 7 pm. "I got my five-volume SELECTIONS FROM MAO ZEDONG there. (They have it in English, too, by the way, along with Lenin, Marx, and others. But finding the books in English is not easy, particularly if you don't speak Chinese.) A great selection of books, most of which are in Chinese. They also sell things needed for Chinese calligraphy, Chinese musical instruments, recordings of Chinese music, Chinese-language periodicals, and many other things Chinese. An attached art gallery sells paintings. While browsing through the books, sit down and enjoy a cup of tea free of charge. Well worth a visit. Two complaints: it's more expensive than it should be, and too many of the books are damaged (by careless customers, or by thoughtless staff?). Unquestionably the best bookstore in all of Chinatown." Irish Books and Graphics (90 W Broadway near Chambers) New and used books mostly related to Irish history and culture. Selection of Irish language (Irish Gaelic) books and periodicals. Very pleasant place. A Remainder & Used bookstore (Chambers btwn Broadway & 8th) Called Harry's or Barney's or something similar. Prices are great but ratio of remainders to used books is very high. Lots of used paperbacks, if that's a lure. Note: this might actually be the following: Ruby's Book Sale (119 Chambers) Really BARGAIN prices for books; many, many, NEW books in the $40-$100 range can be had here for $15-$25; one book I bought for my daughter was $47.95 NEW at Miller's (a riding shop) and was purchased at Ruby's for $12! Science Fiction, Mysteries, and More (140 Chambers west of W Broadway) Opened June '92. It will have readings and signings. Details to follow as I get them. Computer Book Works (25 Warren between Church and Broadway, 212-385-1616). They also run a BBS which you can access by dialing 212-385-2891 with your modem. Strand Books (South Street Seaport, 212-809-0875) Nowhere near as large as the one on Broadway. Open seven days a week 10 AM-10 PM. Isaac Mendoza's (used) (2nd floor loft above Ann near City Hall) They have the best selection of used hardcover science fiction in town, by far. They are also strong in a number of other categories and their prices are reasonable -- I saw a copy of THE ICEMAN COMETH inscribed by Eugene O'Neill there once, for $25. Rizzoli's (World Financial Center) (212-385-1400) Probably the premier art book store in the city. Lots of fun stuff, also foreign books + periodicals A classy place, strong on art books. Opulent bookstore specializing in art/architecture/design books. Italian Bookstore chain. Excellent art, design, and architecture sections. New books at list prices. If you like glossy art books at full price try Rizzoli's. (Also has an uptown and downtown store, and they have opened up a branch in Bloomingdale's 59th & Lexington Avinue. They also have stores in Boston, Chicago, Costa Mesa and Williamsburg. Waldenbooks (59 Broadway south of Wall St.) Very strong on finance. Reasonably strong on everything else. Also, there are lots of specialty bookstores, usually around each of the colleges and universities in the area (Columbia, NYU, St. Johns, CUNY, and so on). There used to be "The Bookstore Book" (subtitled "A Guide to Manhattan Booksellers") by Robert Egan, published by Avon. It listed over 750 bookstores, categorized by type of store and subject area, with several useful indexes. Unfortunately it was published in 1979, and is probably somehwat out-of-date. Evelyn C. Leeper | +1 908 957 2070 | ecl@mtgzy.att.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 21:56:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Last Names Of course, were it not for history, Tom Mandel's name would be Oscar Pullerman. And my grandfather's name was changed at his adoption from Emerald Ambrose McMahon to Emerald Ambrose Silliman (he never much cared for the Emerald Ambrose part either, signed his initials and called himself "Bud"). And two of my favorite poets in the world are Carolyn Hall Ochs and Mary Korkegian. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 01:00:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Re: digest In-Reply-To: <199504140427.AAA25488@mailhub.acsu.buffalo.edu> from "Ted Pelton" at Apr 13, 95 11:40:21 pm > As for another subject Loss raises, that all this is saved, I wonder if it > ever will be read. At first I was unnerved by the fact that these messages > were all saved and that this thus constituted "publication" in a sense -- I'm > so horrified by most of what I write that most of it gets thrown out. About > half the time I write messages I erase them before sending them out, and > that's just because I don't even want them read once, let alone them being > electronicly stored forever (or at least until SUNY goes bankrupt). But with > a medium that produces so much language that we have trouble keeping up with > it in our own time, I wonder what the chances are of these things ever being > read. Ah yes, but you gotta think that it's the way "culture" is going, i.e., at one point in time, I'm always amazed to read, someone who graduated from a University had mastered a "controlled" universe of texts, the classical texts in the original, texts of the national literature, a consisten range of "major" philosophical works. Of course, we don't have this any more. And as you point out, the texts have spread beyond grasp. Nonetheless, these _are_ texts and I can think of exapmles where I've cited the list or Susan Herring's incredible work on gender-based list discuorse. (See EPC documents/conversatiosn for this paper.) But the fact that they have spread doesn't mean they don't have spirit! Let's work on a million words... All best, Loss ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 22:08:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Standing Ed Foster wrote: > >sorry, ron, but it's not true unless your name is althusser. yes, i recognize th >e line, but viewing politics as the great ur-god is just mystification, yet anot >her muse. the french, thank heavens, went home. > > It has nothing to do with the French (unless we're specifically talking about French politics), but everything to do with daily life. One major reason that Russian poetry has continued to hold its strong connection to an oral tradition (Ilya Kutik and Ivan Zhdanov rhyme more often than not, and Zhdanov can recite his poems with his eyes closed for an hour at a time without pausing) is, as Ilya points out, because in their history and context "paper is very expensive." The idea (popular on the CAP-L list I believe) that American poetry is a tributary of British literary history -- rather than, say, that British literature is just one of many wonderful roots in the thick stew of our literary origins -- is a complex and specific history of political domination made tangible even in the tongues we speak. I admit to being shocked at the neo-Luddite position. There certainly is an approach to politics that can be a mystification, as there can be to poetry (viz. so many of Susan Howe's readers or the worrying over skipped anapests among the new formalists, or -- I fear, not having seen the film yet -- the recent deification of Jim Carroll). The history of the 20th century teaches perhaps only one lesson and that is that to ignore one's sense of history and politics at any given moment is to surrender one's life -- too often literally -- to the politics of another. From Armenia to Auschwitz to Kampuchea to Bihac to Rwanda. Dubravka Djuric is half serb and half croat. She writes for an identity and people that cannot now logically exist. Can you tell me that that tragedy is not real and that it does not affect poetry? Or consider how the history of homophobia informs every word, every line of Jack Spicer's poetry. Or even O'Hara's. Or how the distinction between the two can be organized around their relative class stances. What you been smokin', Ed? Ron ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 02:22:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mn Center For Book Arts Subject: Re: nyc bookstores (long) In-Reply-To: <2f8e166f405a002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Despite the long list of bookstores, I tend to agree that there are few who would have the books talked about on this list, or a large selection of books carried by SPD. St. Mark's, yes. A severe loss was when The Bridge moved away several years ago, and now it's owner, David Abel, is in Albuquerque with a new & fine book store, Passages. One important treasure in New York left off the long list was Printed Matter, carrying visual books, artists' books, and more (not much poetry within that, but some, and some experimental music). It's in SOHO, but I don't have the address at hand. Worth a visit. charles alexander & I'm an infrequent NY visitor, so someone else may have even better suggestions ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 11:23:51 -0400 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: Knowledge & empowerment / electronic >> loss, you may be right, and yet there's much to be said for personal >> libraries, not dependent on anything but desire to read. then again, >> where does one get the issue of a magazine from a generation earlier >> if it's not in one's library already? > >This brings up an interesting point. First, not to overlook the >richness of one's library. A constant source of encouragement. But the >scene is changing. And poetry people might wish to take note. I still >insist that an early issue of _C_ is hardly available to most. to speak in defense of lowtech librarianship--one of my prized possesions is a complete set of Duncan's HD Book, assembled w/ the help of Cleveland State (hardly a major research library) and interlibrary loan--the hardest part of assembling it, several years ago, was finding the references. & naturally, the electronic archiving priorities of universities will stick close the numbers/canon--it's quite an investment to convert paper into bytes (personal attestament). which why am i of mixed emotion on th brave new world of etext. it's another media, but the old is not obsolete. if it is viewed so, yeah, the minority voices just won't survive. just snapped up a copy of Catepiller 8/9 at the used bookstore, gleeful to pay the coverprice of $1.50. and some guy still using fullname "ronald" writ: Where the sea sets the lord ship . as if it was the song was all was there ever the writing without the wall... will these screens will be next lascaux cave wall? lbd ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 10:27:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Standing thanks ron, i always appreciate your reasoned clarity.--maria damon In message <2f8e03931e26002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> UB Poetics discussion group writes: >> > The history of the 20th century teaches perhaps only one lesson and that > is that to ignore one's sense of history and politics at any given > moment is to surrender one's life -- too often literally -- to the > politics of another. From Armenia to Auschwitz to Kampuchea to Bihac to > Rwanda. Dubravka Djuric is half serb and half croat. She writes for an > identity and people that cannot now logically exist. Can you tell me > that that tragedy is not real and that it does not affect poetry? > > Or consider how the history of homophobia informs every word, every line > of Jack Spicer's poetry. Or even O'Hara's. Or how the distinction > between the two can be organized around their relative class stances. > > What you been smokin', Ed? > > Ron ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 10:32:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: "Indians R Us" >thanks aldon! and, lindz, it's important to separate personal "guilt feelings" from taking responsibility. they are usually mutually exclusive.--maria damon On Thu, 13 Apr 1995, Aldon L. Nielsen wrote: > > > Forgive me for being shocked, but "PC Movement"??? come on -- > > Did I miss something -- Has the U.S. government actually recorded an > > apology to the Indians (as they did belatedly to the interned > > Japanese-Americans)? Are we all apologized out? > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 12:45:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rae Armantrout Subject: Re: nyc bookstores (long) Dear Anyone in NYC, I'd like to do a bit of personal whining in regards to bookstores in NYC. I've recently been told by Elanine Equi that my new book - published by Sun and Moon and therefore distributed by Consortium, out since mid-February - has not appeared at St. Mark's or any bookstore she knows of downtown. Books and Co. uptown supposedly has it, but...really. So either having this slightly more prominent publisher/distributor on your side doesn't really help much or , well, maybe it's just me. What can I say? Life's a big disappointment. Yours, Rae Armantrout ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 13:30:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ted Pelton Subject: PC Lindz Williamson recently wrote: "I acknowledge the shit in my ancestor's history and believe that it should never be forgotten, but I will not kiss anymore ass to compensate for being born white." Canada is a very different place than the U.S., I have a feeling, and there are also many different places within the U.S. But off of University campuses in the U.S. and outside of large liberal-leaning U.S. cities, there is nothing like a "PC movement" going on. What there is is a fear that PC is coming from these "horrible" places (as reported in the mainstream press to all of the country) to take over all of our lives. "Acknowledging the shit in our history", for most U. S. Americans, is seen as the equivalent of "kissing ass." Resurrecting old biases is confused with strength. One representation of this is how the several announced Republican challengers for the Presidency are not being referred to in diminutive forms, as were the Democratic (problematic, but more sensitive) challengers four years ago: remember the media characterization of "the seven dwarfs"? The rhetoric of not kissing any more ass is what fires the campaigns and the coffers of the major conservative candidates, gives them strength and stature. We beat those Indians in a war, didn't we, so why are we cowering now? Another manifestation of this is that I'm at a small college where the Dean is openly opposing the starting of an interdisciplinary Ethnic and Gender Studies program (we have no Woman's Studies, African-American Studies, Native American Studies, Asian-American Studies, nor does hardly any college in the state of Wisconsin outside the major UW campuses), saying that we're preaching "pluribus without the unum." The plain assumption is that once we had traditions which made fair and honest judgments and that revisionists are perverting these. A history that doesn't support this comfortable version of the past is called, again our Dean's word, "divisive." We mustn't ruffle the egos of our male business students. Things might be different in Canada. Here in the states, we're moving quickly back toward the right and backlash against the characterization of PC hegemony is much stronger than any real addressing of the problems of social inequity/inequality. And come on, LindZ, has your Scotch etc. ancestry ever prevented you from getting a cab at night, or a bank loan? I'm Irish-German with a tiny part Jew (baptised Presbyterian, practicing atheist) and I when I entered my thirties (and started a full-time job) all of a sudden everyone was treating me exactly how I heard white men were always treated and had doubted when I was in grad school and feeling disenfranchised: with an uncomfortable amount of deference. Bankers are smiling at me like I'm their friend, knowing absolutely nothing about me, just by looking at me! (A revulsed shudder runs through me.) It's another aspect of racism, to my mind: I'm being judged not by who I am, but by what I look like, who others picture me as according to surface characteristics. This is the very same lesson, ultimately, as is seen in Ralph Ellison's _Invisible Man_ (recommended by Kali Tal on this list long ago): we are all still judged by such visible characteristics. Or as W.E.B. DuBois wrote a century ago, the glare that people of color get walking through middle America remains the same, a stare which asks, "How does it feel to be a problem?" In a time when there's shrinking opportunities (like the fact that I will never have the cushy jobs my grad school profs did), it's comfortable to say that past inequities have been addressed, if only because we've all been lowered to the worst possible level. But I have a student (black) who ALMOST escaped the worst projects in Chicago, started a class with me this semester and is now sitting in jail (and because of overcrowding is in with some of the worst prisoners in the state). He's no saint, but I've known or seen white students who've done just about every illegal thing in the book and not ended up in jail. His speech is black, his dress is black, his circumstances are black -- these signs all help put him in a Wisconsin jail. No one's asking you to feel guilty. I don't feel guilty. But if I haven't had advantages, I haven't had disadvantages either. Where does this feeling you've been "kissing ass" come from? Could you give examples of how you've had to kiss ass? It sounds to me like the same rhetoric I hear from my thoughtless rural white freshman students who don't want to be bothered with anything that will stand in between them and their (economic) goals, including concern for the less advantaged or a history that doesn't conform to their images of themselves. I'm not asking you to feel guilty, I'm just wondering where this feeling that you're being threatened comes from, if it isn't a dominant cultural position you feel is under attack, even if you're not yet acknowledging it to yourself. Ted Pelton ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 14:13:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: PC well ted, that's one of the most succinct summaries i've read to date as to the situation as i see it and (white male het. that i am) FEEL it... thanks for that, complements nicely ron's political reading of poetry... joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 13:32:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Spencer Selby Subject: Re: Acceptance and Change In-Reply-To: <199504131747.KAA28594@> Dear Tom, To accept the world is to change it. In other words, I don't believe it's a question of acceptance or change. You can emphasize one or the other in yr discourse. But you're not going to have that much of either in life if you don't opt for both. By the same token, I'd say I'm arguing for acceptance as much as change in this little discussion we're having. I'd say that the pervasive denial one encounters regarding the power issue is a refusal to accept the way things are, a refusal to face reality. When there's less denying and more facing up to the reality we live in, then people will talk about these things more and other things will happen (some of which we can't imagine or predict) that will lead to significant change. In the meantime, we don't really have acceptance or change. Not enough to satisfy me, and it shouldn't be enough to satisfy you either. Don't know what else to say, except that you can address me as you wish, whatever you're in the mood for is fine with me. (Never meant to imply otherwise.) Yrs, Spencer On Thu, 13 Apr 1995, Tom Mandel wrote: > Spencer- > Yes, we are friends, unless something happened to make > that not so I mean. & my explanation of why I used "Spencer > Selby" not "Spencer" in my previous post simply stands. That's > why I used your full name. Charles Alexander, btw, refers to > me in his posts as "Tom Mandel" - tho we are good friends. > Ron Silliman, one of my old friends and someone I love deeply, > call me Tom Mandel here, an dI just called him by his full name. > Why is this a problem? Or have I mistakenly taken it to be > one for you? > > I don't know how to respond to most of what you cover > in this most recent post other than to say that the question > for me is what is something I can use productively inb my work. > If you can use this set of related topics productively in your > work, then that's a significant fact. Certainlyk, I was not > trying to downplay the element of what I called agon in the > rleation any poet sustains to what we seem to want to call the > poetic community. I just pointed out that there is a vector of > utility there also, something to push against which one > can always count on being there to push against. Perhaps > foolishly, I accept, even cherish the sense of exile that > attaches to my sense of what it means that I Tom Mandel > am a poet. I don't want the world to be different. > > That said, I can't question the accuracy of your > analysis as you draw out the manifold dishonesties and > confusions attaching to this same world which I am saying > I do not wish to change. That is, it is not this effect > on the world which in my work I pose, in the sense that > Duncan has been quoted here, as the ideal of poetry's > power, and strive so to realize. > > Tom Mandel > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 13:56:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Galen Cope Subject: Re: PC Folks, An essential component in racist discourse is the 'ethinic' absence 'whiteness.' The multi- cultural map - the PC map - is all too often plotted without accounting for 'white ethnicity' (James Clifford's term, in Sulfur 32). The result is an implicit designation of 'whiteness' as the norm - as that which need not be accounted for, or for that metter, need not be held accountable (for itself, it's own constructions, the way 'ethnic' identities are) either. Ron's assertion that homophobia invariably informs the poetics of Spicer and O'Hara (think also of Duncan), addresses the matter in terms of sexuality, implying, as it does, that heterosexuality informs the poetry of, for instance, an Olson or Creeely (as it so obviously, and insistently, does). The problem is that where O'Hara is a homosexual poet (or Lorde is an African - American poet, Brathwaite a Carribean poet, Alarcon a Chicano poet, etc.), Creeley is just a poet. The discrepenmcy is elementary. I remember Rachel Blau Du Plessis posting a call for papers on this list re: a panel on constructions of whiteness (at the MLA, was it?), and would be interested in hearing about what people are coming up with. Around here- aside from James Clifford - Andrew Maxwell does a radio program that features 'Whiteness On the Installment Plan,' a quite poetic (and often comic) commentary/ critique that catechristaiclly uses the trope(s) of whiteness in a very successful, explorative way. A related piece by a psuedonymed Maxwell was published electronically in DIU a few issues ago. Anybody else trying this one on? -Stephen Cope ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 17:18:36 -0400 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: nyc bookstores (long) > I'd like to do a bit of personal whining in regards to bookstores in NYC. >I've recently been told by Elanine Equi that my new book - published by Sun >and Moon and therefore distributed by Consortium, out since mid-February - >has not appeared at St. Mark's or any bookstore she knows of downtown. Books >and Co. uptown supposedly has it, but...really. So either having this >slightly more prominent publisher/distributor on your side doesn't really >help much or , well, maybe it's just me. What can I say? Life's a big >disappointment. > >Yours, > > Rae Armantrout not in any way to defend corporate bookstores or the massmarket/ lowest-common-denominator culture they reflect & perpetuate... nor to deny the frustration of trying to work w/in that system... but it _do_ reinforce the importance of networks of individuals (ov which this list maybe is a piece) that can pick up the slack. seems i saw yr book (_Made To Seem_, $9.95 frm Sun & Moon, 6026 Wilshire Blvd., LA CA 90036--maybe one of you newyorkers will order it thru one of the offending bookstores?) on the list of several folk's "bedside readings" a few weeks ago--better to be read by an appreciative folks than picked blind by some bookbuyer on the basis of who-knows-what? to use yr own (frm ibid): SIT-CALM In the excitement phase we think we want something we're made up to seem exaggeratedly unfit for, say, touch. This is the funny part but also the dangerous moment. Right away we're talked out of it-- no harm done-- by a band of wise-acre friends "I don't know what I'm thinking," we say, to a spike of merriment. Here is the warm human part which dissipates tension we _aren't_ unfit for touch, our books _aren't_ unfit reading; but if commercial success is the measure, we _think_ that's what we want. and i count myself a wise-acre, trying to talk us out of using their yardstick, substituting instead the warm human part that is community... for the situation comedy/commodity lbd ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 21:46:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Last Names Ron mentions Carolyn Hall Ochs--who I don't know...which reminds me of a gossip question...I was once told that Lyn Heijinian's husband, another Ochs, is actually the brother of Phil Ochs (d.1968 Chicago). Does anybody know if that's true---and just because we shouldn't care about the "author behind the text"(37 and in perfect health) doesn't mean we can't speak about the "family construct" I suppose....(Also, maybe this Ochs is related to Carolyn Hall...etc..) CS ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 22:03:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rae Armantrout Subject: Re: Last Names Lyn is Carolyn Hall Ochs and I am Mary Korkegian. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 19:24:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: poetic consistency In-Reply-To: <199504131911.AA21546@mail.eskimo.com> Joe - If I understand the sense of the term "voice" you're using, it seems like you're conflating "content" and "form" in there. (Sorry to use such old fashioned terms in response to a posting quoting Deleuze & Guattari.) & I still think that you can use your "voice" to talk about anything, using a variety of structures. Yes, there is a tendency for readers to presume that a poet or any kind of artist will pretty much continue in the same vein. And, yes, it's hard for a writer (or etc.) to fight this prejudice on the part of readers. Still, thinking back over the range of poets who get name-checked on this list, there's a hell of a lot of this kind of shifting that's gone on and been more or less accepted. Bests, Herb ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 19:36:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: The Ochses: Larry & Phil In-Reply-To: <199504150151.AA26846@mail.eskimo.com> Chris - I've known Larry Ochs (who for those on the list who don't know, is the "O" of the ROVA Saxophone Quartet & a very good musician and composer) for about twelve years and I'd be pretty surprised if he were in fact related to Phil Ochs. It's not something I'd even thought to ask, so I could be wrong, but Phil seemed a little too WASPy (to tie this in to the white ethnicity thread) for this to be the case. &, Speaking of which, Good Yom Tov (which I've never typed before and just realized is a bit redundant though idiomatically correct) for those of you who live where the sun has already gone down. Bests, Herb ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 19:49:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: jazz/music In-Reply-To: <199504132241.AA00150@mail.eskimo.com> On Thu, 13 Apr 1995, George Bowering wrote: > Last I heard of Albert Ayler, he was found in the East River. Is that > right? But I want to know the latest on Don Ayler. When Albert died, > Don was reportedly in some house for the criminally insane or > something. Can anyone tell me more about the story of these two great > musicians I was lucky enough to hear live and up close? > George - I think I saw an article in Coda (you know, Canada's jazz magazine, not the US poetry newsletter) in the last few years about the Aylers. I don't have it, but Ken Pickering, head of Coastal Jazz and Blues in Vancouver, would probably know. I'd call him and report back, but it seems silly 'cause it's a local call for you. (Please say hi from me if you do call.) For that matter, I think Bill Smith, one of the editors of Coda, moved to Vancouver Island a while back. If you find anything out please post it. Thanks, Herb ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 23:50:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Murphy Subject: Re: poeticslist serve and des... Chris, Nice, nice passage. SEM ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 21:02:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Mail before Malls! Half of all the books in the US are bought through the mails. A lot of that includes professional books (and a book of poems is, I would argue, a curious category of the professional book, as are all those tomes on how to study for your real estate exam). Forty percent of all books sold in the US are romance novels. What's the difference between an airport bookstore and a Dalton's? (Some airports, like Portland's, have consciously modeled their commercial spaces after the territorial impulses of the mall and done a pretty good job mimic-ing the form. I can imagine locals going there to shop.) SPD in Berkeley (one block from my house) is not so much a bookstore as a distribution warehouse that uses its front nominally as a bookstore as a conscious (and money-losing) service to local readers. The real business is the catalog. East of SPD, the only poetry bookstore that I've ever been in that I would call great is Woodland Pattern in Milwaukee -- easily the best poetry bookstore as bookstore in the USA. Anne Kingsbury and Karl Gartung and their friends have done an amazing job in a city that people do not automatically think of as one of the major writing centers. But if you want to see what a good poetry collection might look like, that's the model I'd recommend. Then there are bookstores like Black Oak Books in Berkeley, which militantly refuse to carry language poets on the grounds that "language poetry is puke." =========================================================================