=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 1995 14:00:17 BST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From: "I.LIGHTMAN" <I.Lightman@UEA.AC.UK>
Subject: thinking about translation, re:Lorca (long)
A week or so back, Ernesto Grosman sent the RIF/T questionnaire
about translation to the list, shortly after I'd sent a translation
of the opening speech of Lorca's first play Bad Dream of the Butterflies.
My head has been absolutely buzzing with ideas since starting the
Lorca translation, and so I'm going to be arrogant enough to attempt
a public reply to the questions on Ernesto's questionnaire, with
mostly specific respect to this Lorca translation. Do, please, everyone,
leave this message here if this seems to you as arrogant a presumption
on my part as it seems to me, but I do want to answer:
> "QUESTIONNAIRE/CUESTIONARIO
*How would you define translation? As a process or as product?"
I am writing the Lorca very much for an ordinary theatre audience,
going on my feelings for what audiences around me have responded to
in theatre I've seen. I don't expect a very active audience, which for
me is required when I do what I think of as process work. For example,
as part of my long poem DISABUSE, I translate the opening pages of
Foucault's History of Sexuality - precisely as a *close reading*,
giving me the opportunity to offer frequent footnotes on what I think
is going on, where I differ as a thinker etc. In other words, I do
the Foucault translation as something to be read as part of the debate
on how readers *construct* and *write* what they think they're reading,
in other words a *process* that *appropriates* the original writing.
In a similar way, in the same long poem, I "translate" a new story, set
on a journey around the world by airplane from New Zealand to England,
pretty much line for line on top of the first Canto of the _Cantos of
Ezra Pound_. But this translation from Pound is much less antagonistic,
much more a way of saying that Pound has got at some essence of the pain
of travelling to and from loved ones, finding one's shipmates and so on.
My Lorca is much more a *product*, something vying to be published
as an official translation, not as a response of mine to Lorca but as
helping Lorca speak to the English-speaking.
>"*Who is translating?"
I was drawing especially on the persona of Joel Grey in _Cabaret_. My
first master of translation, Donald Davie, very much inspired me to choose
an existing English-speaking model - or preferably fuse two or more.
Nevertheless these are more like flavourings, the approach to language,
I think, remains very consistent from translation to translation of mine,
very mandarin and autocratic - when translating Foucault or Lorca or
Beckett or Mallarme or Rainault. In some ways I am attracted to translating
them because I have trouble being authoritative, governmental, about my own
themes and concerns, having gravitas, and want to learn how. My own work
is more process-like, written for other artists (not by utter choice, but
artists are who respond best to it, unlike the Lorca or others, who I've
shown to lots of appreciative people). My one exception is the Pound, which
struck a real chord of vulnerability and stoic suffering for me, but then
I wasn't having to be so close word-by-word.
> "*What is being translated?"
For me, something is being presented. It must be interesting to people
who only speak English, and it must be as interesting as work written
in English first. It's a lot like the problem with academic critical
essays; it mustn't be worthy and cold, so you have to work really hard
to read it; it must have joi de vivre, like Davie's essays or Marjorie
Perloff's.
> "*Do you consider some texts to be untranslatable? If so, how would you
describe the obstacle?"
Very pun-laden work seems hard, which I myself do; though my Foucault was
done precisely to rescue him, like a lot of the post-structuralists, from
readers (and his official translator) who were missing all his puns. I
translated him with lots of 1990s pop culture references, to try to put
his work back into a leather jacket not a dust jacket!
> "*Isn't the idea of "version" a funny place for the translator to be left
in?"
My Pound was a version, and the Lorca and the French poets a translation;
I don't like Robert Lowell's "versions" of poems at all; they're so
muscle bound and over-rich. As I say above, I think of the work as first
of all a rival for original poetry; the technical question of how close
the version is only interests me if I like it; I'm not a *translator*, or
a versioner; I *use* translation, like I *use* other forms, and get *used*
by them; lots of the writers who I know who are *translators*, who do whole
books of versions or translations, are awful.
>"*When see some of your own texts translated into a different language from
the one you wrote them in, what kind of relation would you established
between the two of them?"
I've had my writing set to music once; because I couldn't sing it, it was
too personal; the singer who set and sang it sang it from my heart.
"*Is it true that today there are fewer people translating? If so, why?"
I suspect there is just the same ratio of people doing good translations
to people doing bad work as there always was.
> "*What does it say about our present situation that translation
seems to occur almost only when the "original" material is has been
canonized within its own culture?"
This is a big one for me. I tend to re-translate, with the exception of
the Beckett, from bi-lingual editions, when the existing translation
really bums me out. I hate the fact that, like so many authors, they
are read badly; are in the public or canonical space but are not really
understood (like Pound's Selected Poems being bought only for the imagist
work, which is then travestied by admirers). The Lorca play I'm doing
has only been translated once, by Gwyn Edwards, who translates Lorca
wholesale - albeit from a deep love of Lorca - and seems to have rushed
over this one for comprehensive coverage at the cost of specificity. Most
translations are "canonised" oddly; my favourite approach would be to have
anthologies of translations of Lorca, or Mallarme, or Baudelaire, collecting
all the best translations of individual poems in magazines or the translator's
collected works, eg Davie's Collected Poems has several marvellous
individual translations, and he has many uncollected. My Lorca would have
the Station Hill translations, Langston Hughes' Blood Wedding, very little
by Gwyn Edwards. I'd ask the question: why do people feel safer reading
one foreign poet exclusively translated by one translator? I like the
Picador collected Rilke, and Michael Hamburger's Celan, Stephen Rodefer's
Villon, but few others on this model. I'm raising here the question of
collected work from a foreign writer writing in discrete different forms,
eg Lorca's many different types of play, or a lyric poet's different
poems.
>"*And what would be the possible relation between this kind of selection and
that other relationship between imperialism & translation?"
Lowell seems very imperialist, decadent and loud; my favourite translations
however make the English accomodate the other culture, the feel and the
facts, and send me to the culture; then it is up to *me*, as a person,
not to be imperialist; I think there are no signs of imperialist *writing*
or *translating*, though there may be larger effects, and the work may be
used as part of or to justify an imperialist strategy.
> "*Are you ready to accept translation as another way of writing?"
If there's time.
"*When you or somebody else refers to a text as illegible, what do you
does she/he mean by that? Do you see any connection between the notion
of a text being illegible and the task of translation?"
Most illegible things are illegible in their own way, a different way
from the way any other illegible thing is illegible. That different way
can be emulated in a translation.
"*Do you think of some texts as more worthy of a translation than others?
Could you elaborate on it?"
I do think people go for comfort too easily, and I do think some work is
more complex, and sometimes more true, than others; but I just want to
tell someone to stop, not make them. Then maybe they might teach me
something in their response.
"*Would you say that you translate a text or a person?"
In the Lorca, I did try to produce effects that would perturb a gay
separatist, or a homophobe; that would make a reader wonder where I
stand, and to emphasise an inwardness, a belonging, with both cruising
on the heath and living a regular life in the suburbs; trying to speak
the lingo, the parlance, of disparate groups; and to use nineties'
references, and to be a little brazen or shocking now, as I think Lorca
was then, while not losing a sense of it being a play from the 20s
altogether. I tried to avoid being one thing and not the other, as I
think that's what resonates for me in Lorca's vision of love. To learn
from, to be intimate, to steal, to go undercover, and to speak out from
within, a community, a friend, a text.
I'd also emphasise how much for me metaphor came up as a big
issue when translating Foucault and Lorca - so much so, that I was
making copious observations in a notebook about metaphor as a route
to everything; the Lorca really got me writing my own work again, a
sequence about metaphor, which I'll backchannel anyone who wants to
see it. It was the best way of reconciling the critical act of reading
as a trained critic, and the creative act of translation. By which I
mean, I would think of four or more sentences to translate one sentence
of the Lorca and then be able to discard them by alluding to it in a
metaphor. For example, the Lorca I sent has a second half which begins,
in paraphrase, a wood sylph who walks with the aid of crutches, and
who came from a Shakespeare play, met the poet one day after all the
cattle had been penned in, and gave the poet this story. I worked for
*hours* on this line; I was so interested that the sylph had come from
a Shakespeare play, I thought of Ariel as much as Titania, so interested
that a fictional character was talked about as living, so interested
in the fact that a fictional character had given a real author a play,
and so on. I really liked making the sylph a "veteran Shakesperean fairy"
as it could be an actor or a character, conjured up Gielgud and Wilde
and other queer men who are allowed to be fey and feminine and powerful
(which I want to be); I liked giving him a cane, rather than crutches,
for elegance and dignity in the advantage of being old enough to have
a cane where it's too much in a young man. I started out with a line not
in the Spanish at all; "so many are dying to get out of books", but then
just worked it in to "escaped to the living wood pulp of a real heath"
which is a pretty close if colourful periphrasis for Lorca's own emphasis
throughout the piece on how things usually get simplified by the way
they're put, in holy books and folk legends, and in the line on the fact
that the sylph comes from a *real* wood (there's that word *real* again!).
I really enjoyed the fact that the expression "gave him the plot" popped
into my head for "gave the poet this story"; like a lot of my translation
this carries a perfectly workable simple meaning, but also means "clued
him in", "wised up the dodo" etc.
> "*Do you consider yourself a translation?"
Not simply.
> "*Could you imagine life without translation?"
Yeah, I'd just live, others would just live. Unmanageable population
growth, and the fact that one of the major population killers, AIDS, is
killing off our world's best people, oppressed from birth and who sees
the world in more detail than a survivor who has to, would mean we'd
succumb to thoughtless regulation and regression. To fight for translation,
we must do much more than fight for words; luckily, translation will be
a luxury we'll have if we make the more basic simple changes.
Sorry to go on and on and on,
Ira Lightman
I.LIGHTMAN@UEA.AC.UK
P.S. I only have French, from classes between 11 and 18 years old,
and Latin. I worked through the Spanish of the Lorca by my French,
by intuition, by hard work, and with the existing Gwyn Edwards
translation. I didn't work with a Spanish dictionary or a Spanish
speaker.
P.P.S. I think of translation as emotional and cultural rather than
trying to match language to language - though as I've tried to show
above, I find all the responses that explode *out* of a reading of
the original find themselves folded back in, usually using metaphor,
in very similar word order in the translation.
P.P.P.S Further thoughts since writing the above two days ago. I've
since read the whole play through in the not so bad Gwyn Edwards version -
perhaps he sped through the intro speech and worked hard on the play
proper? It seems spooky, yet part of the kind of psychic atmosphere that
leads me to find works to read or translate in my path at crucial times,
that I finished my questionnaire with a reference to AIDS, which has been
much on my mind lately, and then found so much anticipated in Lorca's
play. I'd just read an Aaron Shurin piece on AIDS in the mag ACTS 10,
which I've had on my bedroom floor for a while but felt an urge to pick
up yesterday; then read the whole of the Bad Dream of the Butterflies,
then came onto campus today and found the recent New Republic issue
on AIDS - at no point did I do an archive search, or consciously purposed
to research AIDS more, it's just happened this way. Things to translate
fall into my path in the same way.
I don't know how I'm going to make the rest of my Lorca translation
accomodate all these contexts of reading, especially concerning AIDS, that
are, it seems to me, coming in in the exact space between reading and
reformulating-as-new-writing. One needs a politically and experientially
mature audience, as opposed to a stylistically or formalism-experienced
audience, to be able to do what I want. Once again, as in the veteran
fairy with the cane, there is a wounded butterfly, who the characters often
call a fairy, in the play, who is the wisest and most utopian soul. The
characters around the butterfly very simply, or synchronically one might
say, equate the butterfly's poorliness with what they see as the misguided
quest for a radical love/freedom/society; they don't see the butterfly
as a pioneer on a quest, as the pioneer of a future line, heroically
putting everything into the quest. Nor do they see the wounds as in any
way their fault, as something inflicted by the world they make, that the
butterfly strives through.
I don't know. I don't know now whether to write this translation
as a process work of reading, grounded on my assumption that it is impossible
to stage it, because there isn't a mature audience, one that won't, as
Lorca's introduction says, recoil or titter. What Aaron Shurin writes about
is a private, rejected world of heroes, extraordinary courage, people made
experts in sensitivity and powerful emotion. If I turned my translation
into a book, it would be a process work, for other vanguardists to read
and collaborate in - process as an act of community, not creating a
process in *any* reader, but a communique between reader/writers who *are*
in process already. The opening speech that I've already done was designed
to intrigue, haunt and stir up; to unsettle. I can't see a way right now to
do that with the whole play. For me, to make a product out of the Lorca
would be to make something opaque yet compelling - which I could do out
of the opening speech but not out of the play.
P.P.P.P.S AS I seem to be connecting translation with the questions of
health and dis-ease, and also fortuitious, oracular, "coincidence", I'll
mention too that I also found to hand a translation *from* English, of
a far from publically canonical figure, the English poet Tom Raworth,
by the French poet Pierre Alferi. This is in the bilingual pamphlet,
_The Mosquito and the Moon_, by Tom Raworth, Ankle Press, 1994, available
from 153 Gwydir Street, Cambridge - the publisher, Luke Youngman, is also
on e-mail, and anyone who mails me I'll forward e-mail to him.
The Mosquito and the Moon seems to me to be partly about how, if
you cannot maintain enough health, or you need a quicker cure because
you can't afford to take time off work, you can't avoid hospitals and
medical services, and you need in some way to surrender agency. Yet the
extent and the quality of the surrender affects how the bones set, and
the soul is affected. I quote the opening page:
c'est assez dur comme ca it is hard enough
plus qu'une affaire de croyance not merely a matter of belief
le bruit est un autre probleme noise is another problem
de limiter encore continuing yet to confine
le grand tas de depouilles the great heap of spoils
tourne a gauche dans la boutique turn left through the shop
ca cloche, une erreur de calcul something wrong, miscalculated
demolit les cellules breaking cells completely
mesurer n'est qu'un aspect measuring is an aspect
survivre pour produire surviving to produce
donner sur un chemin fini ending on a defined route
dispose en anneau arranged in a ring
petits trous ponctuels small localised holes
de reflexion profonde of intellectual depth
bariolee d'allusions heavily coloured by allusions
conduisit la voiture au parking brought the car to the kerb
parlant depuis un seuil speaking across a threshold
des signes au fusain pointent charcoal marks indicate
pierre alferi tom raworth
I'll start by saying I think this is great translation, great
bilingual work, where it is hard to see which is the original and which
the translation, line by line, as each manages either a more simple
plangency or a more haunting cadence of the "image"/"sense". Reading
through the whole book I notice, not as an iron rule, that the more
ironic and clipped the one side the more sobbing and heartwrenching the
other. The subject matter is *always* heartwrenching, but Raworth's
opening here (I think) is curt and almost spitting, where Alferi's
column is more sonorous and like a stately threnody. Yet, on the next page,
Raworth gets more sonorous and stately, Alferi gets more clipped (to
my ear):
vers la tete du lit towards the front of the bed
tragique mais respirant encore tragic but still breathing
ils portent les anciennes they carry the old
lettres couvrant des decennies letters running through decades
trouvant l'experience affective find emotional experience
pleine de mots filled with words
porteurs d'aleas bearers of randomness
heurtant et bousculant bumping and pushing
des signes intimement connus intimately familiar signs
(It's like all these terms - lettres, mots, porteurs, connus - are
familiarly treacherous to the wise French, language or person, yet freshly
and surprisingly treacherous to the more trusting naif English).
Last reflections then (anyone still reading?): is it because both
figures are currently non-canonical that the translator can be so equal
with the poet, or should that be the mark of all translation - while the
mark of all bad translation is that the original is like safe collateral
to draw on, dead and still fetching a good price, a possession passed around
but never understood, including by the translator, who doesn't wish to
suggest to the reader that the canonical figure may ever have been *alive*,
being treated as badly as the heroes of our day are being treated by most
readers, while they promote bad contemporary writers in emulation of what
they think the dead would have been to us now?
Two, is using biography to translate both (an idea of) the person
and the person's text *allowed* when the poets are contemporaries, have
met each other, speak each other's languages, have seen each other perform
at readings? Anyone who knows Tom at all knows that he has had many
setbacks to his health and medical interventions of a crass sort - can one
posit an Alferi showing he's taking the throwaway self-deprecations with
the pain they hide, as the currently more healthy do with stricken loved
ones? Certainly his care with mimicking Tom's reading style is amazing.
I recommend one way of reading this translation is listen to anyone's
recording of one of Tom's rapid-fire deliveries of his poems; Alferi has
really *got* the overall rhythm of heavily stressing the opening word of
a line then letting the cadence fall and quieten. The funny thing is that
I'm not even sure that that *performance rhythm* of Tom's is *in* the
English on the page; though it's something to keep in the ear if you go
back to the books after hearing him, he has other rhythms on the page too,
thought rhythms, paradoxes (what does a paradox *sound* like, say, in a
score?). Pierre Alferi's translation is also thus, for me, a reading, a
transcription foregrounding an aspect, so that one can go back to the
Raworth and fold that back in. Reading the columns together, for me, is
*like* reading Tom while hearing him, on tape, or at a reading, but not
*set in time*, as that would be. Even if I lose all Tom's recordings, and
can never find another, reading this bilingual edition will always
galvanise my memory again. Maybe this is not translation. Maybe this is
love not killing the author.
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Date: Thu, 1 Jun 1995 14:07:13 BST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "I.LIGHTMAN" <I.Lightman@UEA.AC.UK>
Subject: writing about the body
Hi POETICS people
I was sent the following poem backchannel after I posted a message
about writing and the body, and absolutely love it, so obtained
the writer's permission to forward it to the list. As I've said
to the writer backchannel, this poem brilliantly outmanoeuvred
my own message's attempt at critic's proscription: I was teasing
Jackson MacLow for using metaphors of penetration without really
examining them, ie using them as realist transparent language, and
called for a poetry questioning and denying itself metaphors of
penetration; the poem I'm forwarding however does not deny itself
metaphors of penetration, but uses them with an uncommon urgency
and relish in an unexpected direction that just as or in fact
more accurately does what I was hoping for. Sorry it's so late.
********************************************************
sonnets to bodily love
if my tongue were long enough
i'd let it drop down your throat
and push all the way to the inner
curl of your testicles, then
scoop it slowly around and up,
collecting all the warm bodies
of your insides in my tongue's
cradle, and draw it to my mouth
and swallow the life of you,
then i'd crawl my whole insides
into your waiting torso and remain
there, containing in my belly
your whole vitality, and
being the vitality of you.
or else i'd slip my two hands
under the invitations of your skin
and reach once more down this time
to the inside bottoms of your feet
to grasp the flesh and pull up
in a sacred rupture until your
body was all inside out, and then
i'd put my feet against the inside
flesh of yours and slowly mold
your skin to me like the visible
clay of love, pulling it right side
out again over the skin of me
so that not missing anything i'd be
inside the container of you.
"little nell"
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Date: Thu, 1 Jun 1995 11:26:19 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: writing about the body
I presume that the "backchannel" communication regarding the bacchanalian
poem (lovely) "sonnets to bodily love" is an intentional pun?
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Date: Thu, 1 Jun 1995 15:45:55 -0400
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jordan Davis." <Jordan70@AOL.COM>
Subject: Sentimentality and contempt
Ed Foster, and Poetics,
>Ed wrote:
What do we mean when we call someone's work sentimental? that it refers to
that
which it does not/cannot contain. i.e., it lies.
Doesn't it limit poetry too much to give up lies? Was Blake telling the
truth? Was Milton? Was Susan Howe? Was Ron Padgett? [Were poets only
"containers" between Whitman and Stevens?] And what exactly did Jackson mean
by "sentimental" when he said he stopped using a certain device because he
found he was generating sentimental works? Is this from Hume, or James
Whitcomb Riley?
Anyway, thanks, Ed, Dodie Bellamy, Carl Peters, Jim Rosenberg, Charles
Alexander, Marisa Januzzi and Alan Sondheim, for talking a little bit about
sentimentality.
I wonder if any so-called G2 writers could write something here about
contempt and its uses in poetry. (G1 writers and others with special
knowledge on the topic are also welcome to comment.)
Listening,
Jordan Davis
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Date: Fri, 2 Jun 1995 08:56:37 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: Re: Actually actual?
The old Man etc.: Hassan is Abba(toir)
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Date: Thu, 1 Jun 1995 18:52:46 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sentimentality and contempt
In message <2fce402c3de4002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> UB Poetics discussion group
writes:
> Ed Foster, and Poetics,
>
> >Ed wrote:
> What do we mean when we call someone's work sentimental? that it refers to
> that
> which it does not/cannot contain. i.e., it lies.
>
> Doesn't it limit poetry too much to give up lies? Was Blake telling the
> truth? Was Milton? Was Susan Howe? Was Ron Padgett? [Were poets only
> "containers" between Whitman and Stevens?] And what exactly did Jackson mean
> by "sentimental" when he said he stopped using a certain device because he
> found he was generating sentimental works? Is this from Hume, or James
> Whitcomb Riley?
>
> Anyway, thanks, Ed, Dodie Bellamy, Carl Peters, Jim Rosenberg, Charles
> Alexander, Marisa Januzzi and Alan Sondheim, for talking a little bit about
> sentimentality.
>
> I wonder if any so-called G2 writers could write something here about
> contempt and its uses in poetry. (G1 writers and others with special
> knowledge on the topic are also welcome to comment.)
>
> Listening,
> Jordan Davis
what's g1? what's g2? spicer cd be considered contemptuous, but it's an effect
of his desire for authenticity. impatient may be a kinder word. there's a book
called simply "Humiliation" by a medievalist at ? UWisc-Madison or Milwaukee?
or is it UMich? that might have something to do with the micropolitics (social
dynamics) of contempt...--maria
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Date: Thu, 1 Jun 1995 20:15:57 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Mark Scroggins <scroggin@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU>
Subject: Meet the G that killed me
In-Reply-To: <199506012357.TAA20654@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>
Maria:
G1 & G2 are generational handles _someone_ on the list dreamed up to
designate "older" & "younger" generation poets on the innovative side of
the equation: G1--Bernstein, Silliman, Hejinian, Scalapino, Watten, usw.
G2--Liz Willis, Juliana Spahr, Andy Levy, Melanie Nielsen, Jessica
Grim,usw. Shorthand wd. say _In the American Tree_=G1 and the O-blek
"New Coast" issue = G2. Gets kind of complicated when you have
not-so-young poets emerging late--is Cecil Giscombe (say) G1 or 2? He's
about the same age as Ted Pearson, but has only really hit the fan in the
last five years or so (after many moons in the vineyard of course). It
all reminds me of the "Baby Boomer"/"Generation X" thing--Dad insists I'm
a boomer, but is my only alternative to be a slacker?
Mark Scroggins
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Date: Fri, 2 Jun 1995 00:01:05 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: John Byrum <JMBYRUM@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: art after art after art
Dear Tony Green,
Thank you for your recent message. In 1979 I sat at my father's death bed.
He couldn't speak. When I tried to give him an awkward kiss, our glasses
collided. Then I left him and my mother to go back to work in another city
several hundred miles away where I lived (and still do). Then he died and I
wasn't there. Then I went back for the funeral. Now my mother is living in
our city and has lost most of her memory. I take care of her as best I can.
Now also I am sitting at the death bed of my marriage, which my conflicted
desires poisoned. It is hard to imagine ever feeling at peace again.
These are all real to me. Thanks for sharing your real.
Best to you all,
John Byrum
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Date: Fri, 2 Jun 1995 04:05:23 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: thinking about translation
Ira's wonderful post on translation reminded me of a story that Lydia
Davis tells. When she was translating Sartre's Life/Situations, she
brought the manuscript into the publisher in person (Viking? I forget).
The receptionist buzzed her editor on the intercom and said,
"The typist is here."
Ron Silliman
Rsillima@ix.netcom.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 1995 08:15:55 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "H. T. KIRBY-SMITH" <KIRBYS@FAGAN.UNCG.EDU>
Organization: University of NC at Greensboro
Subject: sentimentality
Sentimentality consists of experiencing or evoking emotion for
something which does not deserve the emotion.
Most commonly the inappropriate emotion is sympathetic to its
object: pity, love, affection, admiration, adoration. But there
are other kinds of sentimentality. For example, inappropriate
kinds of emotion. Adoration of George Patton, for example, would
seem to me sentimental (or worse). Admiration for certain traits
in Patton, perhaps not. It also seems to me that a bug accidentally
flushed down a toilet deserves a certain degree of sympathy, but
protracted mourning would seem sentimental to me, not to say
pathological.
There is also a kind of inverted sentimentality--a sentimentality
of understatement. Hemingway tried so hard to be unsentimental
that at times he is worse than the Poe of "Annabel Lee."
But there is an enormous problem in deciding what is sentimental
and what is not, especially if we are not going to allow the
cumulative wisdom and judgment of generations and multitudes of
others to affect how we view things. For the Nazi camp guard,
pity for a Jewish child was sentimentality. The Nazis didn't last
long. I have several pairs of socks that have lasted twice as long
as the Third Reich did. Unsound judgments about human things,
though they can always recur, tend not to hold up very well,
especially when they are shared only by groups or persons who
consider themselves specially elected and chosen--set above or
apart from other human beings. In such a context contempt for
everything beyond the pale is concomitant with sentimental
adulation.
Catullus's poem about the death of his girl friend's pet bird
balances a delicate cynicism against the intrinsic sentimentality
of its subject. Even the monks through whose hands the manuscripts
passed must have liked the poem, and people still read it. It
escapes sentimentality. Boorish and ill-tempered readers, of
course, can find reasons to dislike almost anything.
Williams's famous plums are full of affection, both for the plums
and for Floss. Crabby people might find his poem sentimental. But
people go on reading and liking that poem.
For really bad sentimental poetry, take a look at a lot of what
Yeats included in the 1936 OXFORD BOOK OF MODERN POETRY.
It is common to say of someone, "She (usually he) is a terrible
poet but a great anthologist (editor)," and I suppose the reverse
can be true, too.
Tom Kirby-Smith
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 1995 13:43:06 BST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "I.LIGHTMAN" <I.Lightman@UEA.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: thinking about translation
Thanks for the message, Ron
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 1995 13:49:05 BST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "I.LIGHTMAN" <I.Lightman@UEA.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: thinking about translation
Oh, I was signed off the list for a while, then got to look through the
May digest just now, and saw the questions about "sweet fumes of grass"
in the Lorca. Hur hur, that was cool, seems to be the tone. Lorca has
words to the effect "perfume of the grass", but I wanted to include
a contemporary allusion (as I explained in my long note yesterday), in
order to characterise another kind of mindless pleasure community, as
mindless as a straight community that has a "natural love, only concerned
with how to love". A kind of pastoral stupidity in an urban community.
Having said which, I emphasise that I say it all with Lorca's own sense
of love - that mindless pleasure is not easily dismissed, but nor are
the arguments against it. I do hate drugs myself, though, and my Lorca
would consider them an enemy of poetry, the way they're normally done,
Ira
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 1995 11:45:22 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@ALBNYVMS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Meet the G that killed me
It's interesting that scroggins names as g2ers the most derivative poets
of the gi styles in the New Coast anthology....just an onservation
(i mean observation)....
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 1995 10:25:13 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ryan Knighton <knighton@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Meet the G that killed me
In-Reply-To: <199506020121.SAA14373@whistler.sfu.ca> from "Mark Scroggins" at
Jun 1, 95 08:15:57 pm
Well, according to one writer on this list, those of us in our early
twenties (hi lindz) aren't quite developed enough to be a generation.
We're merely "Tads", which is an ol' guy term, i suppose. Mind you,
he says things like "hou's your ol' straw hat " too. Now there's
a reason for feeling the anxiety of influence.
By the by, some of us tads would like to know what "pataphysical" means.
Ryan
(p.s. if anyone is in vancouver after the Blaser conference or is
here anyway, Lindz and I are reading at the Vancouver Press Club on
June 14--you can backchannel me for more info if it tickles your
fancy)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 1995 10:41:24 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ryan Knighton <knighton@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: sentimentality
In-Reply-To: <199506021224.FAA10552@whistler.sfu.ca> from "H. T. KIRBY-SMITH"
at Jun 2, 95 08:15:55 am
It seems to me that this issue of sentimentality has everything to
do with the hallmark discussion which floated around this list when
I first signed on. I think the sentimentality being picked on here
is tha hallmark of hallmark. But what about sentimentality in music
or painting? Is it less problematic then? I find whitman extremely
sentimental, but it works for me. Same with Vivaldi. I think Nichol
tried to publish poetry's obituary in the Toronto Star (?), which is
very touching. So, i suppose my question really is are we quick to
think of sentimentality as graceless because it is more common to
the grocery store library?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 1995 17:43:47 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Edward Foster <EFOSTER@VAXC.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sentimentality and contempt
jordan, you miss the point, i think. there's no reason not to work from/with lies, but there's all the difference between that and the work that insists that it contains x and in fact only refers to it. and that's not poetry but rhetoric.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 1995 19:39:36 -0400
Reply-To: Robert Drake <au462@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Robert Drake <au462@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Meet the G that killed me
>some of us tads would like to know what "pataphysical" means...
a term coined by Alfred Jarry in _Ubu Roi_, originally being
a transrational system in which opposites are seen as neither
contradicting each other nor resolving, but as coexisting as
an open-ended, continually variable system, irrational and
energy-producing...
carried forward by the "college de 'pataphysicque", whose
"members" included Raymond Queneau, who later was associated
w/ OuLiPo...
(this lifted & badly paraphrased frm the introduction to
_Pataphysical Poems_ by Queneau, translated by Teo Savory)
cheers
lbd
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 1995 18:37:47 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Lindz Williamson <lmichell@UNIXG.UBC.CA>
Subject: Re: Meet the G that killed me
In-Reply-To: <199506022155.OAA02092@unixg.ubc.ca>
On Fri, 2 Jun 1995, Ryan Knighton wrote:
> Well, according to one writer on this list, those of us in our early
> twenties (hi lindz) aren't quite developed enough to be a generation.
> We're merely "Tads", which is an ol' guy term, i suppose. Mind you,
> he says things like "hou's your ol' straw hat " too. Now there's
> a reason for feeling the anxiety of influence.
>
> By the by, some of us tads would like to know what "pataphysical" means.
>
> Ryan
>
I too was offended by the bubblegum attack on our generation, but I've
been too tired and lacking wit to reply. I guess its partly that I lack
a work ethic that some of our seniors have had installed in them when they
were tads. I'm also bored with defending our generation, I'm painfully
aware that everything has been done before.
I'm a lyrical vulture,
A scavenger of verse.
I don't pick bones,
I pick words.
Ryan, thanks for the free pubilicity, see you at the reading on Sunday.
I hope Bowering is feeling (seeing) better.
Lindz
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 1995 22:12:34 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@ALBNYVMS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: sentimentality
"Sentimentality is a failure of feeling"--Stevens
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 1995 19:50:09 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Carl Lynden Peters <clpeters@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Meet the G that killed me
In-Reply-To: <199506030138.SAA19157@whistler.sfu.ca> from "Lindz Williamson"
at Jun 2, 95 06:37:47 pm
>
> On Fri, 2 Jun 1995, Ryan Knighton wrote:
>
> > Well, according to one writer on this list, those of us in our early
> > twenties (hi lindz) aren't quite developed enough to be a generation.
> > We're merely "Tads", which is an ol' guy term, i suppose. Mind you,
> > he says things like "hou's your ol' straw hat " too. Now there's
> > a reason for feeling the anxiety of influence.
> >
> > By the by, some of us tads would like to know what "pataphysical" means.
> >
> > Ryan
> >
> I too was offended by the bubblegum attack on our generation, but I've
> been too tired and lacking wit to reply. I guess its partly that I lack
> a work ethic that some of our seniors have had installed in them when they
> were tads. I'm also bored with defending our generation, I'm painfully
> aware that everything has been done before.
>
>
>
> I'm a lyrical vulture,
> A scavenger of verse.
> I don't pick bones,
> I pick words.
>
>
> Ryan, thanks for the free pubilicity, see you at the reading on Sunday.
>
> I hope Bowering is feeling (seeing) better.
>
>
>
> Lindz
>
hell, anything they can -- we can do better!
c
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 1995 00:32:26 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: John Byrum <JMBYRUM@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Meet the G that killed me
In a recent post, Ryan Knighton asked what pataphysical means. It means if
you can pat it, its physical.
John
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 1995 09:27:13 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "H. T. KIRBY-SMITH" <KIRBYS@FAGAN.UNCG.EDU>
Organization: University of NC at Greensboro
Subject: pataphysics
If I remember correctly one of the arguments of pataphysics was that
to have a body was a good thing because if you have a body you can
wear clothes, and clothes have pockets, and pockets are extremely
useful. I believe that was a contention of Doctor Faustroll, Jarry's
Professor of Pataphysics, whose eyeballs were vessels of India ink in
which swam golden spermatozoans.
Merdre!
Tom Kirby-Smith
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 1995 09:03:43 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Meet the G that killed me
In message <2fcfce1715d7002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> UB Poetics discussion group
writes:
> >
> > On Fri, 2 Jun 1995, Ryan Knighton wrote:
> >
> > > Well, according to one writer on this list, those of us in our early
> > > twenties (hi lindz) aren't quite developed enough to be a generation.
> > > We're merely "Tads", which is an ol' guy term, i suppose. Mind you,
> > > he says things like "hou's your ol' straw hat " too. Now there's
> > > a reason for feeling the anxiety of influence.
> > >
> > > By the by, some of us tads would like to know what "pataphysical" means.
> > >
> > > Ryan
> > >
> > I too was offended by the bubblegum attack on our generation, but I've
> > been too tired and lacking wit to reply. I guess its partly that I lack
> > a work ethic that some of our seniors have had installed in them when they
> > were tads. I'm also bored with defending our generation, I'm painfully
> > aware that everything has been done before.
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm a lyrical vulture,
> > A scavenger of verse.
> > I don't pick bones,
> > I pick words.
> >
> >
> > Ryan, thanks for the free pubilicity, see you at the reading on Sunday.
> >
> > I hope Bowering is feeling (seeing) better.
> >
> >
> >
> > Lindz
> >
>
>
> hell, anything they can -- we can do better!
> c
come on guys, chill in this generational warfare, i certainly can't tell what
age anyone is from their posts (except, i must say, lindz, when you got into the
i'm white and sick of kissing ass routine --that sounded kinda young, too much
like my students resentful of their compulsory "cultural pluralism" classes)
--many of us 30 and 40 somethings never developed a work ethic either --which is
why we have teaching positions that allow us to play around on the e-nets
provided by our employers.--md
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 1995 10:14:49 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Edward Foster <EFOSTER@VAXC.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: sentimentality
there are two very distinct definitions of "sentimentality" floating here: the hallmark variety, which is the conventional, more limited use of the word, and the eighteenth-century's distinction, which is close to 60's discussions of authenticity.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 1995 07:25:37 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Carl Lynden Peters <clpeters@SFU.CA>
Subject: Rothenberg's Gematria
--picked this up at the blaser fest. what a wonder-full bk! --gematria as
concrete poetry! --just a thot...
interesting, tho: my receipt -- the invoice they gave me when i bought
the book is number "33" -- christ's age when he was crucified. my bill
came to $26.43: that works out to 6
33 works out to 6; hence: with that other 6 i get: 66
so my invoice as ready-made, comprised of both sacred and profane
aspects
Donne
Donn e
Donne
Donn e
Donne
Donn e
Donne
c
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 1995 09:54:00 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: braman sandra <s-braman@UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: missing mail
Poetics List -- Just back from several weeks out of the country to find
that weeks of my e-mail have disappeared (from about May 10 to the end of
May). I'm sorry to have missed the poetics discussions -- but if there's
anyone out there who sent a personal message, please resend.
Sandra Braman
s-braman@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 1995 11:14:56 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: speaking of blaser conf.
speaking of the blaser conference, cd someone --or several of you --so we can
compile a composite profile --give us a report over the net for those of us who
are interested but unable to attend? hi pts, lo pts, entertaining anecdotes,
and overall vibe-picture? how's he doing anyway? descriptions, poems, riffs,
meditations and reminiscences? thanks in advance! --maria d
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 1995 13:52:28 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ryan Knighton <knighton@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Meet the G that killed me
In-Reply-To: <199506030437.VAA08469@ferrari.sfu.ca> from "John Byrum" at Jun 3,
95 00:32:26 am
I originally asumed it had something to do with my dad getting
a check-up (cymbal clash please)
John B. wrote:
>
> In a recent post, Ryan Knighton asked what pataphysical means. It means if
> you can pat it, its physical.
>
> John
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 1995 13:57:12 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ryan Knighton <knighton@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Meet the G that killed me
In-Reply-To: <199506031406.HAA06643@whistler.sfu.ca> from "maria damon" at Jun
3, 95 09:03:43 am
Maria daemon:
I can't speak fo rLindz or Carl, but I didn't mean to pitch a post
about "generational warfare". I still can't figure out which one is mine.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 1995 16:27:22 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Lindz Williamson <lmichell@UNIXG.UBC.CA>
Subject: Re: Meet the G that killed me
In-Reply-To: <199506032058.NAA05568@unixg.ubc.ca>
On Sat, 3 Jun 1995, Ryan Knighton wrote:
>
> I can't speak fo rLindz or Carl, but I didn't mean to pitch a post
> about "generational warfare". I still can't figure out which one is mine.
>
My intention isn't warfare either, just mild reactive annoyance. And ryan
it seems to me that you straddle genertions.
And on the "apology" thing that stirred up so much hot water awhile ago
I have had some new experiences. I recently spent several hours at
Chicago airport and was amazed that every worker in the service industry
was of a non-white ethnic background. This is something I had never
experience before as the tertiary economy is the basis of most economic
activity in Vancouver. I'm used to a melting pot, where I work seven
different languages are being spoken at all times. Race or ethnic
background has never inhibited anyone that I know from moving up in the
world, but obviously that is not the case elsewhere. Therefore my rant
was more self indulgent than analytical of a whole system.
Lindz
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 1995 10:57:06 -0400
Reply-To: Robert Drake <au462@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Robert Drake <au462@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: articles of (praps) interest in jPMC
saw a coupla pieces in the latest jrnl of postmodern culture that
might be of interest to folks here; & so this forward of abstracts
& instructions...
lbd
POSTMODERNCULTUREPOSTMODERNCULTURE
P RNCU REPO ODER E P O S T M O D E R N
P TMOD RNCU U EP S ODER ULTU E C U L T U R E
P RNCU UR OS ODER ULTURE
P TMODERNCU UREPOS ODER ULTU E an electronic journal
P TMODERNCU UREPOS ODER E of interdisciplinary
POSTMODERNCULTUREPOSTMODERNCULTURE criticism
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Volume 5, Number 3 (May, 1995) ISSN: 1053-1920
-----------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------
ABSTRACTS
Paul Naylor, "The 'Mired Sublime' of Nathaniel Mackey's
_Song of the Andoumboulou_"
ABSTRACT: This essay situates Nathaniel Mackey's ongoing
serial poem, _Song of the Andoumboulou_, in the tradition
of the American "world-poem" begun in _The Cantos_ of Ezra
pound and continued in Louis Zukofsky's _A_, H.D.'s
_Trilogy_, and Robert Duncan's _Passages_. Each of these
works, in their own distinct way, holds out the possibility
of a utopian vision created in and by poetry. Yet these
previous instances of the world-poem often have the
unfortunate effects of reducing cultural diversity to a
transcendent sameness in the service of an all-encompassing
view of world history, in effect all too evident in parts
of _The Cantos_. Mackey's _Song of the Andoumboulou_ not
only extends the genre's range of cultural references by
bringing together the traditions of African-American music,
Caribbean and Arabic poetry, and West African mythology,
among others, with the Western traditions of philosophy,
poetry, and music; it also attempts to cure us of the
desire to reduce the representation of diversity and
difference to the kind of all-encompassing sameness that
compromises some of the initial instances of the American
world-poem. --PN
Elisabeth A. Frost, "Signifyin(g) on Stein: The Revisionist Poetics
of Harryette Mullen and Leslie Scalapino
ABSTRACT: This article takes Stein as one (if not the
only) source for feminist avant-garde poetry--writing that
uses experimental language to distinctly feminist ends. A
number of recent feminist poets owe a debt to _Tender
Buttons_, and Stein's work remains a subject of homage.
But, changes working their way through feminist thought
appear in some feminist avant-garde writing that doesn't
simply acknowledge Stein's language experiments but
contests them as well. I examine the influence of, and
divergence from, Steinian poetics in Harryette Mullen and
Stein's "modern" vision by merging "public" speech and
"private" experience--the language of the public spheres of
the street and the marketplace with the experiences of
intimacy and the erotic. Mullen and Scalapino blur the
border between public and private discourse that Stein
relied upon in order to reveal (and, paradoxically, *not*
reveal) her lesbian sexuality in a revolution of ordinary
domestic language. In response in part to Stein, each poet
illuminates language as a locus of the political and the
erotic, altering both eroticized and "public" language as
signs of a culture in need of a fundamental awareness about
the relationships between our most private and public acts.
--EF
-----------------------------------------------------------------
HOW TO GET PMC BY ANONYMOUS FTP:
All PMC files are available via anonymous ftp; to retrieve items
in this way, ftp to:
ftp jefferson.village.virginia.edu
Log in as "anonymous" or "ftp" using your email userid as a password.
When you have logged in, type:
cd pub/pubs/pmc/issue.595
-----
HOW TO GET PMC BY GOPHER:
PMC's gopher server is at:
jefferson.village.virginia.edu
Once you've connected, choose "Publications of the Institute" and
then choose "Postmodern Culture": you will find a menu listing all
published issues of the journal, and within each issue, full text
of all the issue's contents.
-----
HOW TO GET PMC BY WORLD-WIDE WEB:
If you have access to a World-Wide Web client, you will find the
hypermedia version of PMC at:
http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/pmc/contents.all.html
Once you've connected, you will find all back issues arranged by
volume and issue, but also arranged by category (all the reviews,
all the popular culture columns, all the creative works, etc.).
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 1995 19:09:19 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Carl Lynden Peters <clpeters@SFU.CA>
Subject: "pataphysics
additional note to ryan re "pataphysics: --be interested in hearing what
you think abt bp's essay: "The Pata of Letter Feet, or, The English
Written Character as a Medium for Poetry" (_open letter_1985 [or 86?]),
which i consider the best and most direct article on the subject.
mccaffery, at the blaser conference yesterday, was introduced as north
america's leading "pataphysician [the word is supposed to be written with
the double _"_ in front of the p, and left open], but i disagree with that
completely. north america's leading, most outstanding, poet of this other
dimension is _bpNichol_ -- but you knew i was going to say that...
...the blaser fest was outstanding. i'm exhausted!
take care,
c
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 17:13:10 BST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "I.LIGHTMAN" <I.Lightman@UEA.AC.UK>
Subject: sentimentality
I saw Benjamin Britten's _War Requiem_ this weekend, and it seemed to me
to be a sentimental *event*. Some lovely atonal music, and some lovely
vocal arrangments, but the atheism in Britten seemed puerile, the parts
mimicking the sound of war excruciating, and above all, the dumbheaded
applause - as if here we are attending a piece of work that has to
thoroughly and cathartically (and popularly) tackled war that there will
never be war again, ho ho. People clapping themselves for coming. No
room for saying, I liked that bit, but I didn't like this bit, because
that would be to be pro-war, to make a technical criticism of a piece that
is anti-war. And what I would say was sentimental was the way that, as a
narrative, a kind of modernist opera rather than a collection of songs,
the piece did nothing to attack British culture, and actually revelled
in the possibility of *emotional release only in extremity* (you can care,
and love, in warfare); having said that, it is the *framing* which I find
sentimental, the actual moments of release were often gorgeous, and I would
happily make myself a tape of my favourite bits and play them out of
context. I spoke to several music students who didn't care about the
overall framing, don't have any feel for musical narratives, but just see
the narrative as an arbitrary structure for some lovely music. I think
that attitude is sentimental, and that actually most of these music
students are profoundly conservative and reactionary politically, and
happy to be British. On the other hand, maybe someone was there who would
have been frightened off if the piece had been more holistically exciting
and challenging (it sets Wilfred Owen's poetry, which I think is often
also enjoyed sentimentally and not holistically); maybe that person is
now "sentimental* but got off on the "non-sentimental* fragments, would
have been frightened off *if* the whole piece had been "non-sentimental*
ie maybe sentimentality exists in time, as part of process; or maybe
a person might attend "sentimental" art and live a non-sentimental life,
so is the art sentimental?
Ira
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 17:45:21 BST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "I.LIGHTMAN" <I.Lightman@UEA.AC.UK>
Subject: I wannabe a G1-abee
As Ron Silliman says in the introduction to In The American Tree, one
will often find that the younger poets are often truer to the theory of
earlier practitioners than the earlier (now older) practitioners is;
one will find too that one of the most exciting thing about the Language
Writers was that they went back to the last two turning points, of
projective verse and modernism, and included back in all the things the
prjectivists and modernists left out, like stein and the futurists.
As Ron also said, generations tend to pull in the more marginal figures
from an older group and make them central ancestors; he also said that
generations tend to hit a critical mass; I, for one, see this happening
and would be happy to put a list of ten names in a sealed envelope to
be opened in ten years' time when they've all redrawn the map. Anyway,
a decent open interest and respect for each other would be healthy,
especially since, as I for one have said before, it sticks in the craw
to be told that us poets in our twenties are doing work derivative of
others, only nostalgic and plagiaristic, when that is very clearly what
many from G1 have been doing for ten years! At least our work is going
to change!
Ira
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 09:56:11 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Sheila E. Murphy" <semurphy@INDIRECT.COM>
Subject: Re: sentimentality
I liked what you said, Ira, concerning the Britten experience. And am
reminded that the construct of an audience is putty in the hands (that is, a
laboratory) of/for anyone wanting to play the buttons, construct an imagined
harmony that matches something sought in mind. Pseudo "faiths" seem to grow
out of an assemblage of people. In which reacting to this or that would be
to violate the "agreed upon" (although it's really forced) the reigning
sentiment. Overall, sentimentality is a cheap replacement for honesty.
Something truly felt tends to be individual. It would be too coincidental
for hoards of people to feel in unison; my own feelings seem so specific (It
would be hypocrisy for me to presume to presume use of the plural!).
A side note: isn't it frustrating when the textual component is there to
prop up or otherwise not disturb a centrally musical event?
Happy Monday!
Sheila
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 10:10:22 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Lindz Williamson <lmichell@UNIXG.UBC.CA>
Subject: adios muchachos
In-Reply-To: <9506051618.AA17732@hub.ubc.ca>
Went to the last reading of the conference last night, Bowering was his
usual "kid in a candy store" charming, Ondaatje was enthralling, and
here's to Sharon Thesen's latest work *Aurora*, everyone must get this book.
I'm running out of email time so I have to combine messages.
Kevin
Ryan, passed on the message, sorry I didn't meet you, but I'll see what I
can put together. He tells me you don't get enough Canadian stuff and
we'll be pleased to supply, but not represent the whole as the Conference
was a "western" affair. Lots of Toronto bashing was in the air.
Chris S.
GOt the book today, I'll get back to you after I have a chance to look at
it for a bit.
Welcome home to everyone else, it will be good to get some action on the
line again.
Lindz
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 19:34:36 BST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "I.LIGHTMAN" <I.Lightman@UEA.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: sentimentality
Thanks for what you posted, Sheila. Is it a pop vs classical thing, I
wonder... er, no, I answer myself, but the sweeping statement says something:
like the way I've never been to a Dylan concert that wasn't totally
exciting *for nearly everyone in the room* for a few minutes, part of a song,
or a whole song. And, of course, being a fan of a new band and seeing them
when they're fresh, tends to unite the room in a way that's not phony. Or
(but this is where the pop vs classical thing breaks down) being at a new
composition by a groundbreaker, like maybe at a New Music concert in the
fifties, or at a Judith Weir concert when she was just starting - when you
know the normal classical audience is going to hate it (though they'll
later swallow and assimilate it). My flatmate, Mike Higgins, does this
pieces with two or three sustained chords filling the room, and they always
unite everyone who goes - it's so strong an experience, requiring such
endurance (for maybe an hour), that you bump into another of the, usually
no more than forty-strong, audience, and you kind of feel like you've
shared a big experience. I also went to the Beethoven symphony that was
written after Napoleon's return(?) at the same cathedral where the Britten
was played, and it *did* seem to be about war and excite the audience, and
yet the Beethoven didn't seem as sentimental as the Britten was.
I'd love to know the specific examples you were thinking of, of
words being used incidentally to the music. Mike says, after living with
me, he's really embarrassed by all the titles he used to give to his
pieces! I was commissioned to write words for an electro-acoustic piece
by a friend here, and I wanted to get past the usual "musician's use of
words, which for me was either didactic romanticism, like Owen, or
fragmentary modernism, using words for the sound but in a really
word-hating "words can't move one like music" kind of way.... So I wrote
something, as asked, with lots of onomatopeia, but threaded them slyly
into a Basil Bunting-like narrative.
Ira
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 11:53:54 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ryan Knighton <knighton@SFU.CA>
Subject: Kevin or Dodie
In-Reply-To: <199506051618.JAA02564@whistler.sfu.ca> from "I.LIGHTMAN" at Jun
5, 95 05:13:10 pm
Hi.
It was wonderful to have finally met some efaces.
I said i would send some schtuff to you, however Mirage
doesn't have an address.
Could you forward me one?
You can backchannel me at knighton@sfu.ca
Best,
Ryan
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 14:58:58 CST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Alexander <mcba@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: adios muchachos
Thanks, Lindz, for agreeing to supply "canadian stuff" to Ryan and others
of us who might want it. I was particularly glad to hear your enthusiasm
for Sharon Thesen's book, as I've always found her work courageous and
dynamic, altogether its own, and altogether unknown any place I've lived.
But when you say, "He tells me you don't get enough Canadian stuff and
we'll be pleased to supply, but not represent the whole as the Conference
was a "western" affair. Lots of Toronto bashing was in the air." -- I'm
not certain what you mean, or if you are just replying to Ryan in some
personal way I don't get. Just know that not all tuned to this list have
loyalties to Toronto or Vancouver or Buffalo or any particular place. My
own are curiously displaced toward the Arizona desert, where there are a
few people who are on this poetics list as well.
charles
charles alexander
chax press
minnesota center for book arts
phone & fax: 612-721-6063
e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 16:25:58 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Carl Lynden Peters <clpeters@SFU.CA>
Subject: message fr criss cheek
cris, hi: are you out there? --just wanted to know if you received my
last post re the visual poetries loop? experiencing some challenges here
trying to work the cc and alias functions, and understand there are some
alternatives which we could discuss
look forward to hearing from you,
carl
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 22:43:06 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Loss Glazier <lolpoet@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Poetics List Reviews
Poetics List Reviews
from Loss Glazier
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Charles Bernstein, _The Subject_. 1995.
Handsomely-produced booklet from Meow Press containing the libretto of
_The Subject_ from a scenario conceived with Ben Yarmolinski and as
produced in NYC in 1992.
But a person who calls himself a psychologist
is in a peculiar position these days. Experiments
show that Norway rats
die quickly if their whiskers are clipped
and they are thrown into
tanks of water.
This libretto now in print. Edition of 300, available from SPD.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Kenneth Sherwood, _Text Squared_. 1995.
A tactile relation to the text as this book unfolds into juxtaposed
folds. To a pattern of textual variants and overstrikes and pattern:
"loosened there began to try save words bring back to turn there is
nothing more in beginning than say return seems less..." Edition
of 100, a Tailspin Chapbook, where the writer is sculptor.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 22:09:03 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: speaking of blaser conf.
In-Reply-To: <199506031617.JAA09433@whistler.sfu.ca> from "maria damon" at Jun
3, 95 11:14:56 am
Well, for me the lowest point of the Blaser conference was when my
wife fell head over heels over Pierre Joris!
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 01:19:25 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Pierre Joris <joris@CSC.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: speaking of blaser conf.
In-Reply-To: <199506060509.BAA10694@sarah.albany.edu> from "George Bowering"
at Jun 5, 95 10:09:03 pm
>
> Well, for me the lowest point of the Blaser conference was when my
> wife fell head over heels over Pierre Joris!
>
Shucks honey, for me the lowest moment was when one George Bowering
introduced me as being from Belgium!
=======================================================================
Pierre Joris | He who wants to escape the world, translates it.
Dept. of English | --Henri Michaux
SUNY Albany |
Albany NY 12222 | "Herman has taken to writing poetry. You
tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | need not tell anyone, for you know how
email: | such things get around."
joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --Mrs. Melville in a letter to her mother.
=======================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 23:29:16 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Lindz Williamson <lmichell@UNIXG.UBC.CA>
Subject: Re: adios muchachos
In-Reply-To: <199506060009.RAA06943@unixg.ubc.ca>
But when you say, "He tells me you don't get enough Canadian stuff and
we'll be pleased to supply, but not represent the whole as the Conference
was a "western" affair. Lots of Toronto bashing was in the air." -- I'm
not certain what you mean, or if you are just replying to Ryan in some
personal way I don't get. Just know that not all tuned to this list have
loyalties to Toronto or Vancouver or Buffalo or any particular place. My
own are curiously displaced toward the Arizona desert, where there are a
few people who are on this poetics list as well.
Charles,
I wasn't replying to Ryan, rather Ryan was approached by Kevin
Killian at the reading last night and I accompanied Ryan to the reading
along with Reg ( new to the list). Kevin expressed an interest in
receiving new Canadian poetry from Ryan and I and any others we knew
because he had little except from established writers. The western
reference is just part of the continuing war amongst East and West in
Canada. We the west ( Granola Heads) enjoy poking at the Snobs with snow
in the east. As far as I know Ondaatje was the only Eastern based writer
at the reading last night.
It's all part of the Canadian mentality, if you say you're driving
across Canada it means you're either going east to Toronto or Montreal, or
west to Vancouver. The prairies and the maritimes although great sources
of Canadian culture are not included in the concept of the civilized
world. They are a source of great insecurity and pride. My Mom's a
maritimer (Newfie) which puts me at the but of several jokes. I'll leave
you with one (note my Mom has seven brothers)
How does a Newfie girl stay a virgin?
Run faster than her brothers.
Lindz
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 13:18:38 BST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "I.LIGHTMAN" <I.Lightman@UEA.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: sentimentality
Some questions:
*Does* music move more than poetry - or does the average musical concert
move more than the average (avant-garde or otherwise) poetry gig?
Is this because of the ways music and poetry are being written; the
physicality of playing (what about concerts with taped material?)?
Do poets rehearse as much as musicians, or at all, for a gig? Is
professionalism and/or discipline uncool in a poet?
Ira
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 14:28:17 +0000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: cris cheek <cris@SLANG.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: message fr criss cheek
X-cc: Kenneth Goldsmith <kgolds@panix.com>,
braman sandra <s-braman@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>,
"I.LIGHTMAN" <I.Lightman@east-anglia.ac.uk>,
Caroline Bergvall <bergvall@dcolarts.demon.co.uk>,
Erik Belgum <belgu003@gold.tc.umn.edu>,
Gary Sullivan <gpsj@primenet.com>,
John Cayley <cayley@shadoof.demon.co.uk>,
Robert A Harrison <Robert.A.Harrison@jci.com>,
"Sheila E. Murphy" <semurphy@indirect.com>,
John Byrum <JMBYRUM@aol.com>,
Mn Center For Book Arts <mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu>,
w.curnow@auckland.ac.nz, Blair Seagram <blairsea@panix.com>,
selby@slip.net
Hi - posting this broad - it's still the mechanics of construction
discussion.
>cris, hi: are you out there? --just wanted to know if you received my
>last post re the visual poetries loop? experiencing some challenges here
>trying to work the cc and alias functions, and understand there are some
>alternatives which we could discuss
>
>look forward to hearing from you,
>carl
hi carl I am here and listening. Just soaked in exams this couple of weeks
and reeling from a conference as you must also be.
>Hi,
>My name is Jody and I'm helping Carl with this. We tried to create a
>private group with aliases here to simplify this, but our software won't
>let us put outside addresses in alias groups. The easiest way to do this
>would be for you to use a programme called majordomo which is quite
>common at unix sites, or perhaps you have access to listserver software.
>These sorts of programmes are really the only reliable way to manage
>lists. Without them your group will probably be unmnageable in any
>practical sense. Contact your system/mail administrator(s) and see if
>they can help.
>
>Jody
>gilbert@sfu.ca
I'm aware of the majordomo system and no i don't have access to that
listserv software. It's how I get info on Chiapas through Harry Cleaver at
Texas for example.
I wanted to do it like Funkhauser's d i u and that's the system i was
trying. But i categorically don't want to 'run a list' or become any kind
of surrogate sysop. It just seemed that there were areas of discussion,
particularly in respect of visual and performance poetries that could be a
thread running parallel to but not clog into the main 'poetics' list. I'd
hoped to kickstart something that would grow organically and be de-centred
and self-generative.
What next?
love and love
cris
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 09:32:50 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jordan Davis." <Jordan70@AOL.COM>
Subject: a=a is sentimentality
Ed,
Okay, but what's poetry got to do with truth value? And what thing doesn't
exactly fill the container of itself? Sounds. Sounds like. Sounds like teen
spirit.
Jordan
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 09:57:47 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: a=a is sentimentality
Jordan,
It seems to me that if you are going to move from "sentimentality" to
the question of "truth value" then you are now in the realm of
subjectivity-objectivity, and in this realm it seems to me that
either kind of language approaches "truth" though in different ways.
Moreover, poetic Objectivism, for instance, is at heart, perhaps,
grounded in subjectivity, whereas philosophical objectivism is
grounded in . . . ?--that is, say, Quine versus Heidegger. As Rorty
wrote some time ago already, "Non-Kantian philosophers like Heidegger
and Derrida [versus Neo-Kantians like Putnam, Strawson, and Rawls]
are emblematic figures who not only do not solve problems, they do
not *have* arguments or theses." Rorty continues: Derrida is the latest
in a line of philosophers who attempt "to shatter the Kantians' ingenuous
image of themselves as accurately representing how things really are."
Burt Kimmelman
kimmelman@admin.njit.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 11:58:08 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Edward Foster <EFOSTER@VAXC.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: a=a is sentimentality
tho liking teen spirit, it's a problem. sounds=true, well, the greeks undid that, i mean c. 5th cent. b.c.e., that'll do for a date as well as any. and, ah, what doesn't fill the container of itself? well, whatever PROPOSES to be, tho on 3rd thought
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 09:35:17 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Christopher Reiner <creiner@CRL.COM>
Subject: WITZ
ANNOUNCEMENT
The new issue of _Witz_, a journal of contemporary poetics, is now
available.
This issue (volume III, number 2) contains essays by Mark Wallace
("On The Lyric As Experimental Possibility") and Karl Young
("Roman Reading"). There are two reviews of Don Byrd's _The
Poetics of the Common Knowledge_, one by Robert Grenier and one by
Chris Stroffolino. Daniel Barbiero reviews _The Art of Practice_;
and Harry Polkinhorn reviews a number of books from Left Hand
Press.
_Witz_ is published in a newsletter format (8-1/2" x 11"), sixteen
to twenty pages per issue, stapled.
A single copy is $4, but if you'd like a sample copy, send a
55-cent stamp to the address below.
Individual subscriptions are $10 for three issues ($30 for
institutions). Please make checks payable to Christopher Reiner
and send them to:
WITZ
10604 Whipple Street
Toluca Lake, California 91602
If you have any questions about _Witz_, or if you'd like to send a
review or essay, you can e-mail me (creiner@crl.com) or send it by
regular post. Subjects and themes are always open (i.e., I don't
do theme issues).
ASCII files of previous issues (1.1 to 2.1) of _Witz_ can be
downloaded from the Electronic Poetry Center. All back issues
are available from me.
I was going to include a list of back issues and their contents, but
it ran a little long (about 75 lines). I'll e-mail it to anyone
who wants it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Reiner
creiner@crl.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 12:40:59 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kenneth Goldsmith <kgolds@PANIX.COM>
Subject: New Releases From Hard Press/Lingo
Date: 06 Jun 95 09:49:17 EDT
From: Jonathan Gams <74014.1142@compuserve.com>
Hard Press, Inc.
P.O. Box 184 West Stockbridge, Ma., 01266
413-232-4690
email: Jonathan Gams <74014.1142@compuserve.com>
New from Hard Press:
=============================================================
lingo: A Journal of the Arts
Issue # 4 featuring a 30-page music section including Mark Swed on new
composers who incorporate pop elements into concert music and Peter
Occhiogrosso's Highly Selective Guide to Recent Concert Music * Kent Jones
on Abel Ferrara and his Films * Color Portfolio including Philip Guston,
Anna Bialobroda, and Noel Dolla * Art essays by John Yau and Raphael
Rubinstein * Hubert Selby Jr.'s short story A Christmas Tale * Photography
by Judy Fiskin, Hiroshi Sugimoto, Ben Watkins, and others * Keith &
Rosmarie Waldrop Interview Claude Royet-Journoud * Chris Stroffolino
reviews David Shapiro's After a Lost Original * Work by Bob Perelman, Dodie
Bellamy, Lisa Jarnot, Will Alexander, Kevin Killian, Kim Lyons, Anselm
Hollo and many more.
$12.50
============================================================
THE DESIRES OF MOTHERS TO PLEASE
OTHERS IN LETTERS
By Bernadette Mayer
A monumental St. Bernadette to the initiates, this work has achieved
something like the status of "Manuscript Classic." An epistolary text which
takes as its formal parameters the nine months of Ms. Mayer's last
pregnancy-an augury by bee sting- and writes the reader's psyche to the
fences... $12.95
============================================================
LOWELL CONNECTOR: LINES AND SHOTS FROM KEROUAC'S TOWN
By Clark Coolidge, Michael Gizzi, and John Yau. Photographs by Bill
Barrette and Celia Coolidge.
As homage to a writing hero, and as catalyst for their own work, the
authors of Lowell Connector made several trips to Kerouac's hometown of
Lowell, Massachusetts. The procedure was to visit specific sights described
in Kerouac's work, taking in the homes, haunts, schools and literary
memorials as a kind of memory protein in the activation of their own work.
$12.95
============================================================
New From HARD PRESS:
House of Outside First Book Series
Solow
By Lynn Crawford
Haven't wanted to read anything lately, certainly not any of the 500
manuscripts and galleys I get a year. However, I found Solow facinating. It
reminds me of early John Hawkes which is still for me the best Hawkes. The
whole dreamscape was especially vivid.- Jim Harrison $10.00
============================================================
The Geographics
By Albert Mobilio
This impressive first book manages the double ground of a nightmarish
surrealism and a dryly perceptive wit. It's as if Humphrey Bogart were
taking a good, if final, look at what's called the world. These are poems
of a survivor, urbane, intellegent, fact of hope and despair equally. The
Geographics is an ultimate detox center for "reality" addicts as thinking
becomes the only way out. - Robert Creeley $10.00
============================================================
Hard Press, Inc.
P.O. Box 184 West Stockbridge, Ma., 01266
413-232-4690
email: Jonathan Gams <74014.1142@compuserve.com>
=============================================================================
Kenneth Goldsmith
kgolds@panix.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 10:06:20 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Sheila E. Murphy" <semurphy@INDIRECT.COM>
Subject: Re: sentimentality
Ira asks:
>*Does* music move more than poetry - or does the average musical concert
>move more than the average (avant-garde or otherwise) poetry gig?
It would appear that music DOES move more than poetry. The combination is
even MORE potentially stirring than music independently.
>Is this because of the ways music and poetry are being written; the
>physicality of playing (what about concerts with taped material?)?
I think that music is more closely connected to the core of us. That the
materials being worked with are inherently capable of a generating a more
powerful response.
As one who made a conscious choice to replace musical composition and
performance with poetry composition and performance, I actually felt I'd
shifted over to a medium that is congenial to music in ways that some
writers don't get into. Not that everyone should. It's just a auditory
inclination.
>Do poets rehearse as much as musicians, or at all, for a gig? Is
>professionalism and/or discipline uncool in a poet?
Most poets do not rehearse very much at all. Some sterling performers
prepare the frame that allows the nuances to emerge and show in the actual
performance. Discipline is at the core of any human competence.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 13:10:54 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Marisa A Januzzi <jma5@COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: Re: a=a is sent
In-Reply-To: <199506061334.AA26969@mailhub.cc.columbia.edu>
Ira: Hey, put the names in an *electronic* envelope, how about!
I don't think music moves more than poetry in performance, but then this
might be a question of audience. I'm in New York City, where "concert"
very often means $20/ 2 drink min., or else snoozing retirees on their regular
matinee expedition. (On the other hand, the first time I saw "The Rites
of Spring" performed by an orchestra was at Carnegie Hall, and there was
a white-haired woman in front of me who came to life to the extent that
she worked the brown velvet ribbon right off the back of her head, with
all her air conducting and seated ballet twists.)
I would love to reroute the sentimentality thread toward the question of
beauty. (WAIT, don't hit the delete button yet...) In the past couple of
yrs I've asked some people on this list the question "What about beauty,"
and interestingly I've found that while one might expect to be lectured
on the institutional underpinnings of that construction, in fact I've
been treated to just the opposite. One poet told me to read Sobin. A
friend who used to help run the Kitchen told me to listen to Morton
Feldman's THREE VOICES FOR JOAN LA BARBARA, a setting of a Frank OHara
poem which sounds like a vocal snowfall. And I heard "beauty," and I am
still wondering how it is that when you ask, people who one mght think
would've discarded the word as too problematic in fact have a special
category for it, a sort of unacknowledged one. Sentiment, Subjectivity,
or something else? ------------------------Marisa
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 10:51:31 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Carl Lynden Peters <clpeters@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: sentimentality
In-Reply-To: <199506061221.FAA21148@whistler.sfu.ca> from "I.LIGHTMAN" at Jun
6, 95 01:18:38 pm
>
> Some questions:
>
> *Does* music move more than poetry - or does the average musical concert
> move more than the average (avant-garde or otherwise) poetry gig?
>
> Is this because of the ways music and poetry are being written; the
> physicality of playing (what about concerts with taped material?)?
>
> Do poets rehearse as much as musicians, or at all, for a gig? Is
> professionalism and/or discipline uncool in a poet?
>
> Ira
>
---what a wonderful series of questions. my first initial response is
that rock, pop or whatever is the ultimate art form -- i can't qualify
that -- i'm going on instinct, and that "rock stars" are the real _Shamans_
c
---
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 11:09:57 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Carl Lynden Peters <clpeters@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: message fr criss cheek
In-Reply-To: <199506061333.GAA23982@whistler.sfu.ca> from "cris cheek" at Jun
6, 95 02:28:17 pm
cris, hi:
--with respect to what you noted regarding the formation of a list for
visual/sound poetry, i'm told a list can be enacted here (at simon fraser
univ. in vancouver), and if you wish to consider that i can get the ball
rolling. but i know this is completely your baby, and it will remain so.
like yourself, though, i have a serious interest in and love of
"concrete," and want to do anything i can to re-invent the public for it.
but it's your call
look forward to hearing from you
carl
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 13:10:11 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ryan Knighton <knighton@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: discipline
In-Reply-To: <199506061221.FAA21148@whistler.sfu.ca> from "I.LIGHTMAN" at Jun
6, 95 01:18:38 pm
Ira asks in a recent post "is discipline uncool in a poet".
A wonderful question, I think, being unestablished and undefined
by a tradition or "school", as of yet.
Reg and I were discussing this very problem recently, which is,
in some respects, a source of great despair to us.
My understanding is that Vancouver is not unlike many other cities
in the dynamics of its younger poetry scene (I mean the scene freqented
by G1'ers, or goners, if you like).
REg teaches at Simon Fraser and I study there and perhaps for this
reason our poetry is very aware of its historicity, of where matters
of style and imagination come from, and that whole business of the
anxiety of influence. When I look at some of my poems in a stack,
it reminds me of little league and how you had to shake the hands
of all the other team's players when the game was over:"Good game,
good game, good game....". Each poem acknowledges with love who
I've been playing with and against. And I think this is necessary
and inevitable for a time.
But there is an open-mike circuit in Vancouver which is not interested
in "traditions" or the discipline which informs a work. Rather,
it is a fast, aggressive and usually nihilistic crowd which resents
academically informed work. I think Patrick Lane described this circuit
of poets as wanting poems to work like t.v. chat shows: confessional,
sensational, voyeuristic and quick. I suppose this is a tradition now,
maybe cultivated from a media interpretation of the beats, on the
surface. But it is very popular and what students and the like
want to hear while they're drinking. I've written poems specifically
for this kind of occasion with some success, and it was fun. But that
was all it was about.
So, my question is, how does tradition and its disciplines fit into
a venue or readership where entertainment and mass production are the
rules of the game? Perhaps I'm just whining out of personal taste, but
this is not the league I want to play in, despite its growing popularity.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 17:34:39 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Bernstein <BERNSTEI@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Organization: University at Buffalo
Subject: Warren Sonbert 1947-1995
Warren Sonbert died on Wednesday, at home and surrounded by friends. He was
47 years old.
I got the news in a letters from Lyn Hejinian and Tom Mandel. Tom wrote:
Charles,
the news may have reached you already. Warren died yesterday
(wednesday) at 10:30 am. In his bed, in his sleep, and with friends at his
side.
Beth and I had been in SF the whole weekend, left tuesday, and were
with him daily. He was conscious on thursday when we arrived, tho in pain
with organs failing and unable to speak or to move much, and would confirm
requests by squeezing his hand around yours. We read to him, to a strong
attention. Whitman.
The days that followed he was agitated, feverish, only occasionally
responsive (hands) and in much discomfort increasing. By sunday evening it
had become obvious that fluids and pureed food only caused intense pain and
prolonged it too, by whatever number of hours or few days, and the decision
was taken to limit them severely and to up his morphine substantially.
By monday afternoon, when I kissed him goodbye, he was fading and
probably not conscious of one's presence or only fleetingly and as shallow
this sense of any world as his breath, shallow, effortful, unsustaining.
I will miss him, deeply and for a long time.
tom
*
Lyn, after telling me the news, and remembering Warren, mentioned that there is
to be a screening of his early films at the Yerba Buena Center in San Francisco
on June 22. Carla Harryman will introduce.
**********************************************************************
Warren's wonderful, poetic, films immeasurably enriched the art of cinema.
His 15 films are:
Amphetamine (1966). "First film, heavy influence by Goddard and Warhol --
designed to shock." (sound/10 min.)
Where Did Our Love Go? (1966). "First pleasure romp: along the various venues
of culture, circa 1966, New York." (sound/15 min.)
Hall of Mirrors (1966) -- made while a student at NYU film school:
`correcting' dailies from a 1947 murder film, with added sequences of Rene
Ricard at home, Gerard Malanga at a show of Lucas Samaras's `Hall of Mirrors'.
(sound/7 min)
The Bad and the Beautiful (1967). "Mutual (I film them, they film each other)
portraits of eight New York couples, mercifully, you'll be relieved to learn,
only one pair of whom are still together. Editing in camera" (sound/30 min.)
Holiday (1967). "High spirited glances (along with *Truth Serum*) at Coney
Island, Appalachian Trail, New Jersey, the Janis Gallery." (silent/15 min.)
Truth Serum (1967). (silent/12 min)
Carriage Trade (1971) -- the first film of his most characteristic mode
consisting of a procession of intercut images, an open-ended collage of shots
taken in widely disparate locations. Warren himself wrote: "Magnum opus (and
my first real silent) made up of section of [early films]. The strategies of
combing `old' images with recent trips through Asia, North Africa, Europe and
North America. I went to see this film with my daughter Emma (then 9) this
past fall; it played as part of the Museum of Modern Art's October Sonbert
retrospective. It is hard to believe that a film this stylistically
commanding and elegant was made by Warren when he was in his early 20s. Like
many of Warren's films, there is an elegiac quality to the passing of the
images, of the evanescent quality of scenes screened, time slipping by.
(silent / 61 min.)
Rude Awakening (1972). "Tautening this silent period's approach." (silent/36
min)
Divided Loyalties (1978). "Further development of editing concerns."
(silent/22 min.)
Noblesse Oblige (1981). "Furthest distillation (along with *The Cup and the
Lip*) of later manner editing/dislocation approach." (silent/58 min.)
A Woman's Touch (1983). "A backslide into earlier `personality' scheme."
(silent/23 min.)
The Cup and the Lip (1987). (silent/20 min.)
Honor and Obey (1988). "Quick setting (two weeks?) of a film on a dare for
the NY Film Festival." (silent/22 minutes.) Since Warren often worked for
years on setting, eg cutting, his films, his comment is striking. It was fun
to see Sonbert's film as among the few such works shown at the NY Film
Festival. At this point, such films were shown as shorts, accompanying
feature films, always provoking the ire of the "sophisticated" film festival
audience. The running joke was that someone would yell out "SOUND!". Later,
the festival grouped such films together under the title "avant garde visions"
as I recall: they've got narrative we've got visions. Actually, Sonbert's
films are a running revision of the possibility of narrative in the cinema.
Friendly Witness (1989). NY Film Festival again with music/image interplay.
(32 min.)
Short Fuse (1991). "Last NY Film Festival music/image experiment." (37 min.)
[All quotes from the flier for his October 1995 MoMA retrospective.]
*
Whiplash - According to Tom Mandel a rough cut of this film exists; hopefully,
a version of this final film will one day be available.
((((())))))
"The body dies, the body's beauty lives" -- Wallace Stevens
On the Poetics list there has been a recent discussion of sentimentality and I
suppose it's in a notice like this that it is most difficult to find a balance
between sentiment and substance. Because nothing you can say can account for
the fact of Warren's death at 47 and because grief over Warren's dying also
echos with that of many others of our generation who have died of AIDS. So
there is a need to balance that hideous, unrepresentable, general fact with
the specifics of this particular person.
Warren had an extraordinary grace both in his films and in his life. Talking
about this quality of Warren's with Abby Child yesterday she said "he was a
`prince'". But only in the sense that he made you feel graceful too, to be
with him, to talk of movies or poetry or music or gossip about friends. He
seemed to live a charmed life -- travelling the world, attending operas in
Europe and North American, having his work shown at Festivals and museums.
But charms are haunted.
As part of his MoMA retrospective, Warren got to pick four feature films that
he particularly liked, and these were shown alongside his films. For those
who can't get one of Warren's films, rent a video of one of these and watch it
in his honor: Lubitsch's "The Man I Killed (Broken Lullaby)" (1932), Wilder's
"Kiss Me Stupid" (1964), Preminger's "The Cardinal" (1963), and Vertov's "Man
with a Movie Camera" (1929). Last night, AMC was playing one of the Sirk
films that Warren loved: "Imitation of Life" (where early on the earnest young
photographer tells of his implausible ambition to have his pictures shown at
the Museum of Modern Art). When I mentioned this to Tom Mandel he pointed to
Sirk's "Magnificent Obsession"; catch it, if you can, *tonight* on AMC.
When Warren was visiting us in the Fall, Emma was taping interviews of
friends, relatives, and neighbors. She asked Warren what his favorite holiday
was. He said, "Halloween, because I like to dress up."
This prince is dead. His films live to light up the shadow his death has
cast.
--Charles Bernstein
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 14:28:14 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Susan Clark <clarkd@SFU.CA>
Subject: GIANTESS: the organ of the New Abjectionists
In-Reply-To: <199506061820.LAA21712@whistler.sfu.ca> from "Christopher Reiner"
at Jun 6, 95 09:35:17 am
Dear All,
The first issue of *GIANTESS : the organ of the New Abjectionists* --
an 18-page stapled object which opens to 28 cherry inches widthways -- is now
available. We exhausted a first run, giving it away at the
Blaserfest here, but will print further copies for those of you who
have been waiting for your subscription copy (GIANTESS is the defunct
*Q'ir'i* collapsed into the sadly defunct *Barscheit*), or for others who
want to order copies or begin a subscription in the next couple of
months (ie before the next issue).
Please send $4 for an issue, postpaid. Or subscribe for $9 for three
issues (or $5 with a subscription to RADDLE MOON).
Single copy orders and subscriptions to : 2239 Stephens Street,
Vancouver, BC, V6K 3W5 Canada.
We can bank United Statesian money/cheques/money orders; please be
tactful however and refrain from "converting" : $4 is $4, $9 is $9.
The first issue has :
the opening pages of *Phatic*, a novel in progress by Lisa Robertson;
"Punctured," Dodie Bellamy's response to the fundamentalist comic
artist, Jack Chick;
Christine Stewart's "Classical Tragical Play," *DuRiving*; and
Catriona Strang's poem, 'Gap'
RADDLE MOON 14 (product description following in a day or two) is due
from the printer this weeks. A good time to subscribe/support,
with our thanks; it absolutely helps. (*Raddle Moon* subscriptions are
$12 for two issues; $24 for four, etc.; single copies are $7, back
list [various prices] is available.)
My email is : clarkd@sfu.ca
Good to meet and re-meet so many of you here. I wish we could do this
-- I mean something like -- every year.
good wishes,
Susan Clark
clarkd@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 15:21:03 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Reginald Johanson <reginalj@SFU.CA>
Subject: discipline
I like Ryan's move on the question of whether discipline is uncool,
placing at the boundary between the university/small presses (often
run by people trained in the university) and the open-mike scene
which often expresses contempt for that poetry. It seems to be a
question of whose camp one is in: the university has never recognized
anything as poetry except that which it chooses to anthologize, and
its anthologies reflect its concerns. The open mike business is
anarchic, poet as punk, and doesn't leave a record of itself because
it can't concentrate that long. Then there are people like me on the
margins of both comfortable in neither. Now what, eh?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 21:04:21 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: discipline
In-Reply-To: <199506070038.RAA22895@ferrari.sfu.ca> from "Reginald Johanson"
at Jun 6, 95 03:21:03 pm
The open mike scene is usually disappointing, isnt it, Reg? If it
isnt, why isnt it?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 21:20:23 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: sentimentality
In-Reply-To: <199506062000.NAA04352@whistler.sfu.ca> from "Carl Lynden Peters"
at Jun 6, 95 10:51:31 am
Regarding Carl Peters' remark that rock stars are artists etc. I
figure he is trying to be silly or maybe provocative. The electric
guitar amped is easy to play, easy enough to do that strumming they
do in them punky bands. I decicded to watch that band called "Hole"
on TV. Ohhh, look at the funny clothes, that's got to be worth 1000
points. oooh look how she has her hair over her eyes, wow. Ooh look
how she leans way back and strums, woopie. 2000 more points. That
ought to tax the minds and souls of any 12-year-old. I am amused by
the pathetic yearning after respect by thye industry. 3-chord
strummers call themselves "artists" instead of children's music
entertainers. They perform at "concerts" instead of shows. Etc. They
usyally appeal to the kind of refined and complkicated miond that
likes Charles Bukowski's poems. There are good musicians with some
brain and chops, like Frank Zappa. "Hot Rats" is really good. It
might be as good as Delibes. But Nine Centimeter nails, etc? So what
if your friends think yr a goop for saying you doubt whether they are
really good artists? Listen to a little Monk, for god's sake. And
when the whang whang boys and girls arent taking words from serious
adult music, they try to swipe it from jazz and blues, steal lingo
from great 1940s Black artists.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 21:29:33 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: adios muchachos
In-Reply-To: <199506060632.XAA11181@whistler.sfu.ca> from "Lindz Williamson"
at Jun 5, 95 11:29:16 pm
I dont know where Lindz gets the idea about east-west bashing at the
Blaserfest and readings. I was there all the way and didnt notice it.
It is also not true that Ondaatje was the only eastern Canadian poet
at the readings; there were plenty. McCaffery and Mac Cormack, Robt
Hogg, Victor Coleman, for examples. Erin Moure was there. And we
embraced all these people as ourselves.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 21:30:39 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: speaking of blaser conf.
In-Reply-To: <199506060521.WAA07977@whistler.sfu.ca> from "Pierre Joris" at
Jun 6, 95 01:19:25 am
Yeah, Pierre, but I also introduced Eshleman as being from Kalamazoo.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 00:50:32 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Alan Sondheim <sondheim@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: sentimentality
In-Reply-To: <199506070427.AAA17780@panix4.panix.com>
You're serious? You're really serious? You don't get Hole? If it's satire
below, it's missing the point; if it's not, I'm scared...
Alan
On Tue, 6 Jun 1995, George Bowering wrote:
> Regarding Carl Peters' remark that rock stars are artists etc. I
> figure he is trying to be silly or maybe provocative. The electric
> guitar amped is easy to play, easy enough to do that strumming they
> do in them punky bands. I decicded to watch that band called "Hole"
> on TV. Ohhh, look at the funny clothes, that's got to be worth 1000
> points. oooh look how she has her hair over her eyes, wow. Ooh look
> how she leans way back and strums, woopie. 2000 more points. That
> ought to tax the minds and souls of any 12-year-old. I am amused by
> the pathetic yearning after respect by thye industry. 3-chord
> strummers call themselves "artists" instead of children's music
> entertainers. They perform at "concerts" instead of shows. Etc. They
> usyally appeal to the kind of refined and complkicated miond that
> likes Charles Bukowski's poems. There are good musicians with some
> brain and chops, like Frank Zappa. "Hot Rats" is really good. It
> might be as good as Delibes. But Nine Centimeter nails, etc? So what
> if your friends think yr a goop for saying you doubt whether they are
> really good artists? Listen to a little Monk, for god's sake. And
> when the whang whang boys and girls arent taking words from serious
> adult music, they try to swipe it from jazz and blues, steal lingo
> from great 1940s Black artists.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 21:57:09 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: sentimentality
In-Reply-To: <199506070452.VAA17279@whistler.sfu.ca> from "Alan Sondheim" at
Jun 7, 95 00:50:32 am
Well, if "Hole" is satire, it's about as funny as Conan O'Brien.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 01:03:46 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Alan Sondheim <sondheim@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: sentimentality
In-Reply-To: <199506070458.AAA21783@panix4.panix.com>
I was referring to your writing; I like Hole, a hell of a lot better than
Nirvana for that matter, the energy, the edge, Love's writing on the Net
which is some of the best and most intense stuff I've seen. I don't even
think that Monk would figure music to be "about" technique, and I
wouldn't care how many chords Hole does or doesn't use, any more than I
care about the range of PJ Harvey's voice or Bratmobile's backup. It's
like worrying Robert Frank's focusing and grey scale. It's about
something else and you may not like it but you're missing it wide of the
mark.
Alan
On Tue, 6 Jun 1995, George Bowering wrote:
> Well, if "Hole" is satire, it's about as funny as Conan O'Brien.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 22:37:38 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Actually actual?
In-Reply-To: <199505310325.UAA21811@whistler.sfu.ca> from "maria damon" at May
30, 95 10:23:56 pm
Oh hell, ten or however many years ago people were telling me that
ABBA was good, so I listened and it was crap, and now those people
are making fun of it. Now they say listen to Hole, so I listen to
Hole. It is crap. So I await another decade. I just dont get the
withitness that intellectuals try to achieve by praising dumnWdumb
children's music instead of getting up the nerve for hard stuff.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 22:46:48 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: art after art after art
In-Reply-To: <199505261845.LAA23717@whistler.sfu.ca> from "Herb Levy" at May
26, 95 10:21:02 am
I remember that some time in the 50s Marshall McLuhan said something
to the effect that the artists are not ahead of their time, but that
they are in the present, while most people are living in the past. He
later used the trope of the rear view mirror.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 01:46:08 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Alan Sondheim <sondheim@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: Actually actual?
In-Reply-To: <199506070540.BAA26704@panix4.panix.com>
It's probably hard for you to believe but the "withitness" is simply
loving the music. And what constitutes children's music? And what's the
waiting another decade bit? I still listen to the Sex Pistols and they're
not exactly Monk-like; I listen to them more than Monk in fact. I'm not
arguing taste with you, it's the blatant dismissal of stuff that's I find
bizarre. So you don't like it? I don't like Monk. I don't remember Abba,
but I listen to SPK, Albert Ayler, and Hole. And now that I think of it,
thank God a lot of this stuff is children's music...
Alan
On Tue, 6 Jun 1995, George Bowering wrote:
> Oh hell, ten or however many years ago people were telling me that
> ABBA was good, so I listened and it was crap, and now those people
> are making fun of it. Now they say listen to Hole, so I listen to
> Hole. It is crap. So I await another decade. I just dont get the
> withitness that intellectuals try to achieve by praising dumnWdumb
> children's music instead of getting up the nerve for hard stuff.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 02:00:31 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Alan Sondheim <sondheim@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: art after art after art
In-Reply-To: <199506070549.BAA27731@panix4.panix.com>
This brings up a constant argument I have here in NY in relation to the
artworld; the Net itself seems to embody more interesting (no def. here)
aesthetics than the artworks placed upon it or using it. As if artists
are attempting to keep up with a culture that has by and large
outstripped them.
In this regard, I'm amazed at the inventiveness, say, of MOOs, of Usenet
groups such as alt.destroy-the-internet and alt.adjective.noun.verb.verb.
verb, alt.dirty-whores, or the Monster Truck Neutopians on alt.society.
neutopia, of John December's Web Pages, and so forth. The mirror you
mention may well be a computer screen, accessible to all, and "art"
itself is becoming unclear, blurred, muddied. I'd say that most artists I
know are living in the past in relation to the Net, and an awful lot of
Net people are burning towards the future, artists or not.
Sorry for the meandering reply.
Alan
On Tue, 6 Jun 1995, George Bowering wrote:
> I remember that some time in the 50s Marshall McLuhan said something
> to the effect that the artists are not ahead of their time, but that
> they are in the present, while most people are living in the past. He
> later used the trope of the rear view mirror.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 00:09:57 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Sheila E. Murphy" <semurphy@INDIRECT.COM>
Subject: Re: discipline
Ryan, I enjoyed your post about discipline (one of my favorite topics!).
The short answer would be that for whatever level of intensity you choose
for the discipline you want or need, there will be a venue. The bell curve
is alive and well out there. No need to genuflect to any process that's not
enough for you.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 10:43:51 BST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "R.I.Caddel @ durham.ac.uk" <R.I.Caddel@DURHAM.AC.UK>
Subject: Sentimentality, music etc
In-Reply-To: <199506070402.FAA12584@tucana.dur.ac.uk>
Re: Britten's War Requiem: it's necessary for players and audience to
make some attempt to think it back to its original context, or at
least out of the rather sterile concert hall context. Written late 50s
early 60s, (a time when the UK certainly did need refocussing on the
wastage of war, which isn't to say that other places/times
didn't/don't) for the reconsecration of Coventry Cathedral (Coventry,
you remember, was the city the Allies allowed to be destroyed rather
than reveal to the Germans that they'd cracked their radio code) by a
gay pacifist who was still (at that time) outside the UK
establishment, its intention was to "reach" a lot of people. To do
this, Britten opened out and simplified his style a lot (it's not
atonal music in any sense) and chose "accessible" texts by Owen - to
my mind, mistakenly (when Tippett came to write his polemic piece "A
Child of Our Time" he wrote his own libretto). The key to it all is
the Dies Irae: normally when composers set this they go for a big,
wrath-filled, melodramatic sound - Britten's is the only setting I can
think of which is tiny, guilt-ridden and fearful. The war music,
likewise, should be clumsy and childish. The whole thing is stamped
with the human and fallible, and a performance which doesn't respect
this, I'd say, would fail.
But there's a tendency these days in concert performances and
recordings to go for "lovely sounds" in contexts where it's not
appropriate (Gorecki suffers from this, to my ears) - as if we looked
at those Goya execution scenes and said they had "lovely colours".
This comes down to "dumbheaded" audiences and (in the case of music)
insincere performances. And it suggests to me that sentimentality (if
that's what this love of lushness is) is to do with audiences and
consumers, rather than makers of things. Now (to take my own case) I
freely confess to being both - and it's possible that if a consumer
response slips into my poetry (and I don't cut it out) the result is
sentimental poetry. In which case, let he/she who is without wotsit
cast the first thingumy.
Cards on the table: I was never a very good performing musician, and
any explanation I give as to why I shifted from a formal musical
training to poetry could be tempered with cries of "sour grapes". But
it does seem to me that much of the music bizz is to do with
consumerism ("giving the public what they want") rather than actually
making anything. There are exceptions, of course. Equally, I'm often
horrified by the amateurishness of many poets over their
reading/performance practice (one UK poet who turned up to give a
reading actually prefaced it with "I don't think I'm a very good
reader, I think my poems are better studied on the page..." but he
still claimed his fee). Uncool it may be, but (to the consternation of
my family) I do indeed read work aloud during the composition process,
and when preparing for a reading. I used at one stage to record
myself, and play it back to myself, as part of this process. It was
very instructive, and also very destructive.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
x x
x Richard Caddel, E-mail: R.I.Caddel @ durham.ac.uk x
x Durham University Library, Phone: 0191 374 3044 x
x Stockton Rd. Durham DH1 3LY Fax: 0191 374 7481 x
x x
x "Words! Pens are too light. Take a chisel to write." x
x - Basil Bunting x
x x
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 04:29:36 CST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Alexander <mcba@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: adios muchachos
Thanks, Lindz.
Being originally from Oklahoma, I think I understand. Although it should be
noted that several of the second or third wave New York School poets (Ron
Padgett, Joe Brainard, and a couple of others) are actually from Oklahoma
and followed Ted Berrigan from Tulsa to NY after he taught in Tulsa for one
or two years.
Me, I went west, and only recently ended up in this upper Midwestern place
which is still foreign territory.
But wasn't Steve McCaffery at the Vancouver reading? Is he considered
Eastern Canadian, or as a migrant from England, is he altogether out of
the Canadian east/west context?
I'd be proud to be a Maritimer, too.
all best,
charles
charles alexander
chax press
minnesota center for book arts
phone & fax: 612-721-6063
e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 09:39:12 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Pierre Joris <joris@CSC.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: speaking of blaser conf.
In-Reply-To: <199506070434.AAA08366@sarah.albany.edu> from "George Bowering"
at Jun 6, 95 09:30:39 pm
>
> Yeah, Pierre, but I also introduced Eshleman as being from Kalamazoo.
Well, George, someone or other will have seent hat as the high or low
point, as the case may be.
But kidding aside, the high point of the conference was obviously
Robin, & given that Robin was there all the time, the high point was
all the time. I had a wonderful time, so, thank you Vancouver & -ites.>
=======================================================================
Pierre Joris | He who wants to escape the world, translates it.
Dept. of English | --Henri Michaux
SUNY Albany |
Albany NY 12222 | "Herman has taken to writing poetry. You
tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | need not tell anyone, for you know how
email: | such things get around."
joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --Mrs. Melville in a letter to her mother.
=======================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 09:48:31 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@ALBNYVMS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Warren Sonbert 1947-1995
So--why doesn't somebody with money (like James $herry or somebody)
put on a Warren Sonbert retrospective and film festival in some poetry/art
space in NYC (and somebody else can do it on the west coast)---
The reason i ask is because there is so little crossover between genres
these days---it seems the specialization of the art world is harder
to overcome than it was 35 or even 20 years ago--Who are the young
experiental filmakers of my generation? (or of LINDzzzzz's generation)?
Are they too busy trying to get funding to come down and meet us
poets? Are they working in video? Maybe I haven't looked around
enough, so I'm trying to keep my eyes pried open. Chris (oh--I got
off the point--the point is that for those of us who have only the
vaguest memory of Sonbert from college experimental film shows--
it would be good for the poetry community to actually get out
of its sick little "words words words" attitude at least for awhile
and come together over (it)).....
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 09:52:53 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@ALBNYVMS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: sentimentality
Mr. Peters certainly sounds snooty today--
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 10:03:08 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@ALBNYVMS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Actually actual?
And george bowering also claims that intellectuals could only possibly
like bands like Hole and not the "hard stuff" for spurious reasons of
"hipness"----
When I worked on the editorial board of a poetry magazine in the late
80's--the editor made me listen to PARSIFAL (sp?) and if i seemed
appreciative I was in (it was part of the screening process)---
Ironically, his love of OPERA--especially aryan opera--and other
"difficult high culture"(and yes I know opera was ORIGINALLY low
culture--like jazz before it was called "African American Classical")
was not parelleled in his love of literature--he went for the Bly,
Hugo,Logan nexus in poetry. I on the other hand preferred Ashbery,
O'Hara, etc---but to "unwind" found myself listening more to rock and
blues and reggae and stuff than classical and even jazz...
I certainly do not want to be dogmatic about this, or eclectic--
but just who ARE these people to be so PRESCRIPTIVE about what music
a good poet should listen to---it guarantees nothing, my friends,
except perhaps a verbal sophistication when talking to someone
like a famous poet who doesn't like talking about poetry at parties
and so you gotta find something else to talk about (and "politics"
gets boring--so it turns to music--but then there's these fights
over music--I was a t a party once where one friend called another
"a musical nazi")...
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 10:06:20 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jordan Davis." <Jordan70@AOL.COM>
Subject: a=a is what does bad poetry do
Marisa,
Okay, let's go the other way.
Ed,
Now don't you proposition me!
Burt,
Re truth: Ed started it!
Question for the group--what harm does bad poetry do?
Love,
Jordan
("Sincerity is verbal etiquette--it works for some boys"--Barscheit Nation)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 15:51:59 BST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "I.LIGHTMAN" <I.Lightman@UEA.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Sentimentality, music etc
Just to say I really found Ric's posting informative. Also want to support
Alan (yeah a Bratmobile fan!): there is a way of looking a song that uses
three chords as minimalist, a la Reich and Glass, as milking a small
set of materials for all you can. Oh I like Nirvana and Hole and Abba,
and Debussy and Ravel and Berio, but I absolutely hate any jazz other than
fifties be-bop. Oh, and I've also done quite intellectual work at open
mike events, with all the timing and precision and rehearsal and intensity
I can manage, and it usually gets respect. If I stood there hating that
audience for not being a trained avant-garde audience I'd get nowhere.
That isn't selling, or selling out, it's communicating, give a little,
demand a little. Plus of course a pop artist can be a much more effective
bridging person than most arts programmes or courses; I'm thinking of the
way Cobain drew a lot of people's attention to neglected independent label
bands *or* the way Lennon name-dropped (and engaged with) Stockhausen and
Yoko Ono in other arts.
But I don't think rock is the highest art form, I think there are people
for whom each of the arts form is the highest, and if yours is not it,
and you can still get at what the spirit of pure form is in their form
ie make your music sculptural, or your cooking painterly, you can win
them over *and* stretch yourself at the same time. *I* was *trying* in
my original questions to ponder if it wasn't that any art, say music
instead of poetry, was an intrinsically higher art - but that poets could
learn from musicians, as Sheila was saying; I'm often ashamed to take
Mike, my flatmate who writes classical music and pop songs with me, to
poetry gigs because, as he memorably put it me after one event: "poets
really have it easy". He can't get *any* of his scores, or writing about
music, published or distributed or performed, except by himself.
Ira
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 11:20:24 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: NEW POETRY FROM SPUYTEN DUYVIL
From: TESLA::KIMMELMAN 7-JUN-1995 11:18:47.12
To: ADMIN::KIMMELMAN
CC:
Subj:
ANNOUNCEMENT
New poetry books from Spuyten Duyvil:
Wave-Run by Tod Thilleman ($7.95):
about Wave-Run:
"Those who sound the language of Tod Thilleman's Wave-Run may at first feel submerged in a foreign language only to arrive at a later--and deeper, more alive--realization of english and of a different sea."
- John Taggart
"Thilleman's craft, the drive and punning images of his language, movingly replay in contemporary terms the old myth of Ocean and our fascinated love of it."
- Michael Heller
Also from Spuyten Duyvil:
Musaics by Burt Kimmelman ($8.95)
about Musaics:
". . . artful, fastidious, learned--in love with the world of painting and the intricacies of language."
- Alfred Kazin
"We find the arts restate the questions we have been asking and the ways they clean and stretch our questions reward us more than answers would."
- William Bronk
After Asia by Michael Stephens ($10.00)
about After Asia:
"A lovely book of poems! So various and human and (usefully) sweet! These poems are a pleasure! Oh!"
- Robert Creeley
Books may be purchased from SPD / Small Press Distribution (1-800-869-7553), 1814 San Pablo avenue, Berkeley, CA 94702; or at individual prices plus $1.50 shipping and handling ($.50 for each additional book) from Spuyten Duyvil (1-212-978-3353), Box 1852, Cathedral Station, NYC 10025.
Coming soon from SD:
Occur by Wayne Oakes.
about Occur:
". . . one page story-moments limned in the ink of intensity."
- Ed Sanders
The Ceiling of the World by Alice Rose George.
about The Ceiling of the World.
". . . exquisite . . . intensely ecstatic. . . ."
- Carol Muske
"Alice Rose George transforms our shared world from heartbreak to a difficult and qualified joy."
- April Bernard
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 12:14:10 -0400
Reply-To: Robert Drake <au462@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Robert Drake <au462@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Actually actual?
>...I just dont get the
>withitnessthat intellectuals try to achieve by praising dumnWdumb
>children's music instead of getting up the nerve for hard stuff.
sound like you think it's an either/or choice? or am i misreading.
i enjoy hole, & monk, & bach, & gid tanner and the skillet lickers
(who could probably play a whole barndance w/ only 2 chords)...
all for different reasons & in differnt ways. or, to bring it
back to poetics, i've even read some bukowski that i enjoyed--
why compare apples & sardines, or choose between 'em? unless
yr trying to impress...
lbd
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 12:49:48 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Edward Foster <EFOSTER@VAXC.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Actually actual?
true, chris, so very true. arab music is good, those modes and all that, plus bach for complex baroque interiors, but KISS, all those old recordings still wonderful. hey, anyone who's prescriptive about anything is only one thing: wrong.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 13:09:07 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Linda Lane Reinfeld <lreinfeld@ECKERT.ACADCOMP.MONROECC.EDU>
Subject: singing benna
Just rereading Jamaica Kincaid's "Girl" for a class I'm teaching tonight
and wishing I knew what "benna" sounded like... Standard references in the
public library don't help. Here's some context:
"... is it true that you sing benna in Sunday School? ... don't sing benna in
Sunday School ... but I don't sing benna on Sundays at all and never in Sunday
School..."
If you've got a fast answer for me, please email to
lreinfeld@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu
Thanks -- Linda Reinfeld
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 12:58:31 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Edward Foster <EFOSTER@VAXC.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: a=a is what does bad poetry do
jordan, jordan, as Keats said, "I look upon fine Phrases like a Lover." And the _harm_ in bad poetry? Well without "fine Phrases," how/what can one feel?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 17:45:13 EDT
Reply-To: beard@metdp1.met.co.nz
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: beard@MET.CO.NZ
Subject: Re: open mike scene, music etc.
Various posters on open readings:
>But there is an open-mike circuit in Vancouver which is not interested
>in "traditions" or the discipline which informs a work. Rather,
>it is a fast, aggressive and usually nihilistic crowd which resents
>academically informed work. I think Patrick Lane described this circuit
>of poets as wanting poems to work like t.v. chat shows: confessional,
>sensational, voyeuristic and quick. I suppose this is a tradition now,
>maybe cultivated from a media interpretation of the beats, on the
>surface.
>question of whose camp one is in: the university has never recognized
>anything as poetry except that which it chooses to anthologize, and
>its anthologies reflect its concerns. The open mike business is
>anarchic, poet as punk, and doesn't leave a record of itself because
>it can't concentrate that long. Then there are people like me on the
>margins of both comfortable in neither. Now what, eh?
This is the gap into which I've fallen, too. I've never felt comfortable in the
poets' pub scene - too many first-years in DMs in love with the idea of being a
Poet, rather than with poetry itself. On the other hand, I feel distanced from
the university scenes (not having studied the arts at university) and believe
that poetry _deserves_ an audience wider than a small circle of poets and
professional critics.
I used to run the NZ Poetry Society in Wellington, and this was the closest
thing to a happy medium that I've come across. There were a fair number of
people not directly associated with the Victoria University Press mafia, but
still with a serious interest in poetry as literature (rather than therapy),
involved in the society. Of course, the open readings always attracted a hard
core of (WARNING! non-PC terms ahead) little old ladies reading haiku about
their cats, and gruff old men reciting ballads about pig hunting, but at least
there was an attentive audience for difficult, thoughtful, and/or experimental
work.
> Ironically, his love of OPERA--especially aryan opera--and other
> "difficult high culture"(and yes I know opera was ORIGINALLY low
> culture--like jazz before it was called "African American Classical")
> was not parelleled in his love of literature--he went for the Bly,
> Hugo,Logan nexus in poetry. I on the other hand preferred Ashbery,
> O'Hara, etc---but to "unwind" found myself listening more to rock and
> blues and reggae and stuff than classical and even jazz...
It's interesting that the "alternative" sub-culture of pub poetry is far more
conservative stylistically (and even in terms of content) that what might be
termed the "mainstream", whereas the opposite is the case in pop music. I
wonder if this is because populist (written) poetry does not really exist these
days, so that the "mainstream" is defined by academic and government-funded
cultural groups, rather than commercial demand. Hence your average pub poet
fumes because his predictable and poorly-written teen-angst rant was rejected
by Landfall, and consoles himself by telling himself that he is too dangerous
and radical for the conservative elite. Maybe if pop music worked the same way,
then M People and Brian Adams would consider themselves subversive.
> Oh I like Nirvana and Hole and Abba,
> and Debussy and Ravel and Berio, but I absolutely hate any jazz other than
> fifties be-bop.
I've never been able to understand the appeal of grunge. Maybe I'm Generation W
(I'd much rather wear Armani than Mossimo). I got fed up with the way that pub
poets idolise the cliche of poet as self-destructive visionary outsider, a la
Bukowksi, Dylan Thomas, James K. Baxter, Jim Morrison etc. After sitting
through one too many "Elegy for Kurt Cobain", I wrote the following, and read
it at the poets' pub:
That stupid club
----------------
Hart Crane
Sylvia Plath
Anne Sexton
John Berryman
Ian Curtis
Kurt Cobain
...think of it
as evolution in action
Well, it got a reaction at least (the last lines are from Niven and Pournelle).
Apologies to anyone on the list who might have known any of the above - it's
the _romanticisation_ of suicide to which I object.
I still read occasionally at the poets' pub in Auckland, but I won't be for a
while, since on Monday nights I'll be attending a writing group run by Alan
Loney. I guess that shows where my allegiances might be heading!
Tom Beard
______________________________________________________________________________
I/am a background/process, shrunk to an icon. | Tom Beard
I am/a dark place. | beard@metdp1.met.co.nz
I am less/than the sum of my parts... | Auckland, New Zealand
I am necessary/but not sufficient, | http://metcon.met.co.nz/
and I shall teach the stars to fall | nwfc/beard/www/hallway.html
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 10:46:12 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Carl Lynden Peters <clpeters@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: sentimentality
In-Reply-To: <01HRF56NIR2G8ZE54A@albnyvms.BITNET> from "Chris Stroffolino" at
Jun 7, 95 09:52:53 am
----i don't get this -- what are you talking abt?
c
>
> Mr. Peters certainly sounds snooty today--
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 09:24:30 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: speaking of blaser conf.
In-Reply-To: <199506071339.JAA17575@loki.albany.edu> from "Pierre Joris" at
Jun 7, 95 09:39:12 am
Pierre, it was just amazing that Blaser went to everything. Not just
because of his health, but because he's notoriously not at
everything; or if he does gfo to something he leaves the second it's
over. People remarked on this. I take it that Blaser was showing his
respect for all the people. I think that he was really mived around.
I bet he's been resting ever since.
Hey, Vancouver was glad to have all you folks. Van. loves big p[oetry
things.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 11:04:59 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Carl Lynden Peters <clpeters@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: sentimentality
In-Reply-To: <199506070427.VAA16068@whistler.sfu.ca> from "George Bowering" at
Jun 6, 95 09:20:23 pm
wait, let me explain a little: i should have specified this, but i was
thinking of the context they have -- which is usually a context which
gives them a large and immediate audience. --and i certainly think there
are musicians out there who take their art seriously. what abt neil
young? some real rock & roll
c
>
> Regarding Carl Peters' remark that rock stars are artists etc. I
> figure he is trying to be silly or maybe provocative. The electric
> guitar amped is easy to play, easy enough to do that strumming they
> do in them punky bands. I decicded to watch that band called "Hole"
> on TV. Ohhh, look at the funny clothes, that's got to be worth 1000
> points. oooh look how she has her hair over her eyes, wow. Ooh look
> how she leans way back and strums, woopie. 2000 more points. That
> ought to tax the minds and souls of any 12-year-old. I am amused by
> the pathetic yearning after respect by thye industry. 3-chord
> strummers call themselves "artists" instead of children's music
> entertainers. They perform at "concerts" instead of shows. Etc. They
> usyally appeal to the kind of refined and complkicated miond that
> likes Charles Bukowski's poems. There are good musicians with some
> brain and chops, like Frank Zappa. "Hot Rats" is really good. It
> might be as good as Delibes. But Nine Centimeter nails, etc? So what
> if your friends think yr a goop for saying you doubt whether they are
> really good artists? Listen to a little Monk, for god's sake. And
> when the whang whang boys and girls arent taking words from serious
> adult music, they try to swipe it from jazz and blues, steal lingo
> from great 1940s Black artists.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 13:47:35 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: discipline
In message <2fd528fd57dd002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> UB Poetics discussion group
writes:
> The open mike scene is usually disappointing, isnt it, Reg? If it
> isnt, why isnt it?
this, like (I'm sorry folks) the hallmark card discussion, is of interest in my
thinking about what what poetry is or might/cd./ (not "should," tho i think
people may have a deeply buried "should" in there under everything) do, be, etc.
what is it that one expects that results in disappointment when it's not there
in an open mike scene. and, as george asks, when one isn't disappointed, what is
it that is there, what expectation is being met? i for one enjoy open mike
readings if there's a lot of energy there and the participants are excited about
what they're doing. md
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 15:28:39 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Bernstein <BERNSTEI@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Organization: University at Buffalo
Subject: EFF Newsletter (fwrd)
I am forwarding the new issue of EFF newsletter. At the very end of the
message, many screens away for those of you like me who must scroll this screen
to screen, is SUBSCRIPTION information for EFF. Since each of you can
subscribe to this yourself, it is not my plan to forwarded further
issues to POETICS. However, if people on the list would prefer to have these
newsletters forwarded to the list, send me (not the list) a message.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 19:13:41 -0400
From:editor@eff.org
To: effector mailing list <effector@eff.org>
Subject: EFFector Online 08.07 - June 6 '95 - ALERT: Last chance on Exon bill!
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EFFector Online Volume 08 No. 07 June 6, 1995 editors@eff.org
A Publication of the Electronic Frontier Foundation ISSN 1062-9424
IN THIS ISSUE:
ALERT: Communications Decency Act - Imminent Passage or Failure - Act NOW!
The Latest News
What You Can Do Now -- U.S. and non-U.S. citizens
Senate Contact List
For More Information
List Of Participating Organizations
Newsbytes
Dole/Grassley Legislation Threatens Online Free Speech - Worse Than CDA
New Draft of Communications Decency Legislation
Sen. Lott to Attempt to Rip Sysop Defenses from Exon Bill
The Other Side of the Coin: Feinstein Bill v. Bomb Material Online
Prodigy Potentially Liable for User Postings
Calendar of Events
Quote of the Week
What YOU Can Do
Administrivia
* See http://www.eff.org/Alerts/ or ftp.eff.org, /pub/Alerts/ for more
information on current EFF activities and online activism alerts! *
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: ALERT: Communications Decency Act - Act NOW!
* EMERGENCY UPDATE: Just as this issue was going to virtual press, more and
* very dire news has arrived. Senators Bob Dole (R-KS) and Charles Grassley
* (R-IA) have announced they are sponsoring, and probably introducing very
* soon, new Internet censorship legislation even more threatening
* to free speech than the Exon "Communications Decency Act". Unlike the
* Leahy alternative to the CDA, the Dole/Grassley legislation is not,
* according to sponsor Grassley, intended to be offered as a replacement
* for the Exon language in the Senate telecom reform bill, but rather is
* intended as free-standing bill. As CDT, a member of the Stop314 Coalition
* with EFF, notes, the advent of the Dole/Grassley bill creates an even
* greater need for support of Senator Leahy's alternative (S. 714). If
* the Senate rejects Senator Leahy's alternative, it will pass either the
* Exon bill or the even more draconian Dole/Grassley proposal, and the
* net as we know it will never be the same again. Please, take the very
* few minutes it will require to call your Senators and sign the Leahy
* petition, as detailed in the lead article below. More info on the
* Dole/Grassley proposal is in the Newsbytes section of this newsletter.
Below is the latest action alert from the Stop314 Coalition (including EFF).
*This may look like alerts you've seen on previous days and weeks, but it
is new.* Please take the time to check it out - the time has come to
direct your activism toward your Senators. The petition drive for the
Leahy opposition bill has receive over 20,000 signatures in a very short
time, but it is not enough. Please pardon the length of this EFFector,
but this is the most important action alert that has appeared in EFFector
this year.
________________________________________________________________________
CAMPAIGN TO STOP THE EXON/GORTON COMMUNICATIONS DECENCY ACT
Update: -Senate changes gears, we're caught with little time
-What You Can Do Now (US and non-US citizens)
CAMPAIGN TO STOP THE UNCONSTITUTIONAL COMMUNICATIONS DECENCY ACT
June 6, 1995
PLEASE WIDELY REDISTRIBUTE THIS DOCUMENT WITH THIS BANNER INTACT
REDISTRIBUTE ONLY UNTIL June 20, 1995
REPRODUCE THIS ALERT ONLY IN RELEVANT FORUMS
Distributed by the Voters Telecommunications Watch (vtw@vtw.org)
[NOTE: EFF has added two bracketed additions to the "What You Can Do Now"
section, in light of the sudden appearance of the Dole/Grassley bill
and the Lott amendment.]
________________________________________________________________________
CONTENTS
The Latest News
What You Can Do Now -- U.S. and non-U.S. citizens
Senate Contact List
For More Information
List Of Participating Organizations
________________________________________________________________________
THE LATEST NEWS
The Senate is ready to act on the Telecommunications Reform Bill this
week, perhaps as soon as Wednesday, June 7th. We had thought the
Counter Terrorism bill would take all week, but the Senate changed its
schedule without consulting us. :-)
(We sincerely apologize for issuing another alert on the heels of the
prior one, but the Senate's readiness to move on this legislation was
not anticipated. We'll watch out for such a situation again and avoid
releasing two alerts so close together in the future. We also apologize
for the length of this Alert, but it contains the entire Senate contact
info.)
Note that there are few people who don't know about the bill. However
if you are unfamiliar with the bill, take a moment to retrieve the
materials listed in the "For More Information" section.
________________________________________________________________________
WHAT YOU CAN DO NOW -- U.S. and non-U.S. citizens
The Telecomm Reform Bill, will, in all likelihood, include either the
Exon Amendment (formerly the Communications Decency Act) or the Leahy
Amendment. It is essential that the Leahy language be substituted for
Exon's, and therefore it is essential:
1. That all citizens call or fax their Senators as soon as possible.
There is no time for written letters and email is too easily
discounted or ignored. Non-U.S. citizens should contact Vice
President Gore. Note, if you decide to send a fax, you'll want to
write an expanded version of the statement below.
It's very important that you always be cool, collected, and polite.
U.S. citizens:
<call your Senators' offices, contact info below>
"Hello, Senator ________'s office"
"Hi, I'm a constituent and would like to register my
opinion on the Telecommunications Reform bill to the
Senator."
"Hold On please. Alright, go ahead."
"Please vote to remove the Communications Decency Act provision
(Title 4 of S652) from the Telecomm Reform bill and
replace it with the Leahy alternative (S714). My name and
address is ________."
"Thanks for calling."
<click>
[Addition in light of emergency update: Ask your Senators to also
oppose the Lott amendment S.714, and to oppose the Dole/Grassley
alternative to the CDA.]
Non-U.S. citizens:
<call, fax, or send email to Vice President Gore>
"Dear Vice President Gore,
The world looks to the United States as one leader in
developing a Global Information Infrastructure. Title 4 of
the Telecomm Reform bill (the Communications Decency Act)
[like the Dole/Grassley Internet censorship bill,]
imperils that leadership. Please work to remove it from the
Telecomm Reform bill (S652) and replace it with Senator
Leahy's sensible alternative (S714). I'm calling from
____________."
2. Send VTW a note telling us what you did. If you contacted your two
Senators, send a letter to vtw@vtw.org with a subject line of
"XX ack" where "XX" is your state. For example:
To: vtw@vtw.org
Subject: OH ack
I called my Ohio Senators and expressed my opinion.
If you contact Senators outside your state, please let us know what
state you're from.
If you contacted Vice President Gore, send a letter to vtw@vtw.org with
a subject line of "gore ack". For example:
To: vtw@vtw.org
Subject: gore ack
I called VP Gore and expressed my opinion. I'm from France.
An automatic responder will return an updated contact tally.
3. Forward this Alert to relevant forums on other online services and
BBS's. Check the letter you get back to see which Senators are
underrepresented by citizen contacts. Forward the Alert to any
friends and colleagues in those states.
4. If you haven't yet signed the petition to support Sen. Leahy,
do so now. Send mail to vtw@vtw.org with a subject line of
"send petition" for directions.
5. Congratulate yourself! Your two-minute activism joins that of many
thousands of others over the past two months.
________________________________________________________________________
SENATE CONTACT LIST
Vice President Gore can be reached at:
White House comment line
Telephone: (202) 456-1111 (M-F 9-5 EST)
Facsimile: (202) 456-2461 (M-F 9-5 EST)
Email: vice-president@whitehouse.gov
US Senate Listing:
D ST Name (Party) Phone Fax
= == ============ ===== ===
R AK Murkowski, Frank H. 1-202-224-6665 1-202-224-5301
R AK Stevens, Ted 1-202-224-3004 1-202-224-1044
D AL Heflin, Howell T. 1-202-224-4124 1-202-224-3149
R AL Shelby, Richard C. 1-202-224-5744 1-202-224-3416
D AR Bumpers, Dale 1-202-224-4843 1-202-224-6435
D AR Pryor, David 1-202-224-2353 1-202-224-8261
R AZ Kyl, Jon 1-202-224-4521 1-202-224-2302
R AZ McCain, John 1-202-224-2235 1-202-228-2862
D CA Boxer, Barbara 1-202-224-3553 na
D CA Feinstein, Dianne 1-202-224-3841 1-202-228-3954
D CO Campbell, Ben N. 1-202-224-5852 1-202-225-0228
R CO Brown, Henry 1-202-224-5941 1-202-224-6471
D CT Dodd, Christopher J. 1-202-224-2823 na
D CT Lieberman, Joseph I. 1-202-224-4041 1-202-224-9750
D DE Biden Jr., Joseph R. 1-202-224-5042 1-202-224-0139
R DE Roth Jr. William V. 1-202-224-2441 1-202-224-2805
D FL Graham, Robert 1-202-224-3041 1-202-224-2237
R FL Mack, Connie 1-202-224-5274 1-202-224-8022
D GA Nunn, Samuel 1-202-224-3521 1-202-224-0072
R GA Coverdell, Paul 1-202-224-3643 1-202-228-3783
D HI Akaka, Daniel K. 1-202-224-6361 1-202-224-2126
D HI Inouye, Daniel K. 1-202-224-3934 1-202-224-6747
D IA Harkin, Thomas 1-202-224-3254 1-202-224-7431
R IA Grassley, Charles E. 1-202-224-3744 1-202-224-6020
R ID Craig, Larry E. 1-202-224-2752 1-202-224-2573
R ID Kempthorne, Dirk 1-202-224-6142 1-202-224-5893
D IL Moseley-Braun, Carol 1-202-224-2854 1-202-224-2626
D IL Simon, Paul 1-202-224-2152 1-202-224-0868
R IN Coats, Daniel R. 1-202-224-5623 1-202-224-8964
R IN Lugar, Richard G. 1-202-224-4814 1-202-224-7877
R KS Dole, Robert 1-202-224-6521 1-202-224-8952
R KS Kassebaum, Nancy L. 1-202-224-4774 1-202-224-3514
D KY Ford, Wendell H. 1-202-224-4343 1-202-224-0046
R KY McConnell, Mitch 1-202-224-2541 1-202-224-2499
D LA Breaux, John B. 1-202-224-4623 na
D LA Johnston, J. Bennett 1-202-224-5824 1-202-224-2952
D MA Kennedy, Edward M. 1-202-224-4543 1-202-224-2417
D MA Kerry, John F. 1-202-224-2742 1-202-224-8525
D MD Mikulski, Barbara A. 1-202-224-4654 1-202-224-8858
D MD Sarbanes, Paul S. 1-202-224-4524 1-202-224-1651
R ME Snowe, Olympia 1-202-224-5344 1-202-224-6853
R ME Cohen, William S. 1-202-224-2523 1-202-224-2693
D MI Levin, Carl 1-202-224-6221 na
R MI Abraham, Spencer 1-202-224-4822 1-202-224-8834
D MN Wellstone, Paul 1-202-224-5641 1-202-224-8438
R MN Grams, Rod 1-202-224-3244 1-202-224-9931
R MO Bond, Christopher S. 1-202-224-5721 1-202-224-8149
R MO Ashcroft, John 1-202-224-6154 na
R MS Cochran, Thad 1-202-224-5054 1-202-224-3576
R MS Lott, Trent 1-202-224-6253 1-202-224-2262
D MT Baucus, Max 1-202-224-2651 na
R MT Burns, Conrad R. 1-202-224-2644 1-202-224-8594
R NC Faircloth, D. M. 1-202-224-3154 1-202-224-7406
R NC Helms, Jesse 1-202-224-6342 1-202-224-7588
D ND Conrad, Kent 1-202-224-2043 1-202-224-7776
D ND Dorgan, Byron L. 1-202-224-2551 1-202-224-1193
D NE Exon, J. J. 1-202-224-4224 1-202-224-5213
D NE Kerrey, Bob 1-202-224-6551 1-202-224-7645
R NH Gregg, Judd 1-202-224-3324 1-202-224-4952
R NH Smith, Robert 1-202-224-2841 1-202-224-1353
D NJ Bradley, William 1-202-224-3224 1-202-224-8567
D NJ Lautenberg, Frank R. 1-202-224-4744 1-202-224-9707
D NM Bingaman, Jeff 1-202-224-5521 na
R NM Domenici, Pete V. 1-202-224-6621 1-202-224-7371
D NV Bryan, Richard H. 1-202-224-6244 1-202-224-1867
D NV Reid, Harry 1-202-224-3542 1-202-224-7327
D NY Moynihan, Daniel P. 1-202-224-4451 na
R NY D'Amato, Alfonse M. 1-202-224-6542 1-202-224-5871
D OH Glenn, John 1-202-224-3353 1-202-224-7983
R OH Dewine, Michael 1-202-224-2315 1-202-224-6519
R OK Inhofe, James 1-202-224-4721
R OK Nickles, Donald 1-202-224-5754 1-202-224-6008
R OR Hatfield, Mark O. 1-202-224-3753 1-202-224-0276
R OR Packwood, Robert 1-202-224-5244 1-202-228-3576
R PA Santorum, Rick 1-202-224-6324 1-202-228-4991
R PA Specter, Arlen 1-202-224-4254 1-202-224-1893
D RI Pell, Claiborne 1-202-224-4642 1-202-224-4680
R RI Chafee, John H. 1-202-224-2921 na
D SC Hollings, Ernest F. 1-202-224-6121 1-202-224-4293
R SC Thurmond, Strom 1-202-224-5972 1-202-224-1300
D SD Daschle, Thomas A. 1-202-224-2321 1-202-224-2047
R SD Pressler, Larry 1-202-224-5842 1-202-224-1259*
R TN Thompson, Fred 1-202-224-4944 1-202-228-3679
R TN Frist, Bill 1-202-224-3344 1-202-224-8062
R TX Hutchison, Kay Bailey 1-202-224-5922 1-202-224-0776
R TX Gramm, Phil 1-202-224-2934 1-202-228-2856
R UT Bennett, Robert 1-202-224-5444 1-202-224-6717
R UT Hatch, Orrin G. 1-202-224-5251 1-202-224-6331
D VA Robb, Charles S. 1-202-224-4024 1-202-224-8689
R VA Warner, John W. 1-202-224-2023 1-202-224-6295
D VT Leahy, Patrick J. 1-202-224-4242 1-202-224-3595
R VT Jeffords, James M. 1-202-224-5141 na
D WA Murray, Patty 1-202-224-2621 1-202-224-0238
R WA Gorton, Slade 1-202-224-3441 1-202-224-9393
D WI Feingold, Russell 1-202-224-5323 na
D WI Kohl, Herbert H. 1-202-224-5653 1-202-224-9787
D WV Byrd, Robert C. 1-202-224-3954 1-202-224-4025
D WV Rockefeller, John D. 1-202-224-6472 na
R WY Simpson, Alan K. 1-202-224-3424 1-202-224-1315
R WY Thomas, Craig 1-202-224-6441 1-202-224-3230
________________________________________________________________________
FOR MORE INFORMATION
For more information on the Communications Decency Act, visit the
following resources:
Web Sites
URL:http://www.panix.com/vtw/exon/
URL:http://epic.org/
URL:http://www.eff.org/pub/Alerts/
URL:http://www.cdt.org/cda.html
FTP Archives
URL:ftp://ftp.cdt.org/pub/cdt/policy/freespeech/00-INDEX.FREESPEECH
URL:ftp://ftp.eff.org/pub/Alerts/
Gopher Archives:
URL:gopher://gopher.panix.com/11/vtw/exon
URL:gopher://gopher.eff.org/11/Alerts
Email:
vtw@vtw.org (put "send help" in the subject line)
cda-info@cdt.org (General CDA information)
cda-stat@cdt.org (Current status of the CDA)
________________________________________________________________________
LIST OF PARTICIPATING ORGANIZATIONS
In order to use the net more effectively, several organizations have
joined forces on a single Congressional net campaign to stop the
Communications Decency Act.
In alphabetical order:
American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) infoaclu@aclu.org
American Communication Association (ACA) comminfo@cavern.uark.edu
American Council for the Arts
Arts & Technology Society cyberguy@well.com
biancaTroll productions bianca@bianca.com
Californians Against Censorship Together BobbyLilly@aol.com
Center For Democracy And Technology (CDT) info@cdt.org
Centre for Democratic Communications (CDC) cshariff@aztec.co.za
Center for Public Representation (CPR) mgpritch@facstaff.wisc.edu
Computer Communicators Association community@pigpen.demon.co.uk
Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility cpsr@cpsr.org
Cross Connections staff@xconn.com
Cyber-Rights Campaign cyber-rights@cpsr.org
CyberQueer Lounge tomh@cyberzine.org
Electronic Frontier Canada (EFC) efc@graceland.uwaterloo.ca
Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) info@eff.org
Electronic Frontier Foundation - Austin eff-austin@tic.com
Electronic Frontiers Australia (EFA) efa-info@efa.org.au
Electronic Frontiers Houston (EFH) efh@efh.org
Electronic Frontiers New Hampshire (EFNH) efnh@mv.com
Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC) info@epic.org
Feminists For Free Expression (FFE) FFE@aol.com
First Amendment Teach-In croth@omnifest.uwm.edu
Florida Coalition Against Censorship pipking@mail.firn.edu
FACTS (Friendly Anti-Censorship Taskforce for Students)
jt885291@oak.cats.ohiou.edu
Hands Off! The Net baby-x@phanton.com
Human Rights Watch (HRW) infohrw@hrw.org
Inland Book Company David1756@aol.com
Inner Circle Technologies, Inc. aka. NovaLink
Inst. for Global Communications igc-info@igc.org
National Libertarian Party 73163.3063@compuserve.com
Libertarian Party (national) (LP) lphq@access.digex.net
Marijuana Policy Project MPProject@AOL.com
Metropolitan Data Networks Ltd.
MindVox system@phantom.com
National Bicycle Greenway cycleam@cruzio.com
National Coalition Against Censorship (NCAC) ncac@netcom.com
National Public Telecomputing Network (NPTN) info@nptn.org
National Writers Union (UAW Local 1981 AFL-CIO) kip@world.std.com
Oregon Coast Rural Information Service Cooperative
Panix Public Access Internet info@panix.com
People for the American Way jlessern@reach.com
Rock Out Censorship TWieseROC@aol.com
Society for Electronic Access sea@sea.org
The Thing International BBS Network (TTNet) info@thing.nyc.ny.us
The WELL info@well.com
Voters Telecommunications Watch (VTW) vtw@vtw.org
(Note: All 'Electronic Frontier' organizations are independent entities,
not EFF chapters or divisions.)
[End of Alert]
------------------------------
Subject: Newsbytes
------------------
* Dole/Grassley Legislation Threatens Online Free Speech - Worse Than CDA
[This summary provided by Center for Democracy & Technology, info@cdt.org]
The Dole/Grassley bill would create new penalties in Title 18 for all
operators of electronic communications services who knowingly transmit
indecent material to anyone under 18 years of age. The bill would also
create criminal liability for system operators who willfully permit minors
to use an electronic communications service in order to obtain indecent
material from another service.
The Dole/Grassley bill would impose criminal liability on online service
providers, electronic bulletin board operators, as well as any other entity
that uses computer storage to deliver information to users, including video
dialtone services, cable television video on demand services, etc. The
degree of knowledge required to impose liability is unclear, but it appears
that an entity could be said to have the requisite knowledge if it is
merely informed by a third party that some material on its system is
indecent.
The text of the Dole/Grassley bill (currently unintroduced and without a
bill number) is at:
http://www.eff.org/pub/Alerts/dole_grassley_95.bill
ftp.eff.org, /pub/Alerts/dole_grassley_95.bill
gopher.eff.org, 1/Alerts, dole_grassley_95.bill
* New Draft of Communications Decency Legislation
Sen. Exon, the Dept. of Justice, and some unnamed online service providers
have attempted to fix the "bugs" in the Exon/Gorton Communications
Decency Act, recently folded into the Senate telecom reform bill, S.652.
All in all, the amendment fixes only superficial problems, leaving the
core faults of the bill intact.
The revisions are not currently out of the draft stage as far as can be
determined, but may be intended to be introduced by Exon on the Senate
floor in an attempt to convince the Senate that the CDA is "fixed" and
should be preferred over the Leahy counter-legislation. The draft changes
various minor parts of the bill (e.g. changes "knowingly and willfully" to
"knowingly"); allows but fails dismally to require that the implementation
of technology to enable the user to restrict or prevent access to "obscene,
lewd, lascivious, filthy, or indecent" material may be used to avoid
liability on the part of system operators; and separates out some
offenses from others more clearly. The revisions also aim to
satisfy the concerns the Justice Dept. had regarding the poorly written
CDA's negative effect on law enforcement's ability to enforce "dial-a-porn"
statutes and (to the DoJ's credit) its negative effect on the protection
citizens enjoy under privacy laws. Whether the changes actually do
address these problems is highly questionable.
The Exon legislation revised by this draft amendment will remain
unconstitutional, as it still attempts to ban expression protected by the
First Amendment. Even the regulation of indecency has been limited by
the courts to very narrowly defined circumstances - none of which apply
to online media. Such restrictions, even if eventually overturned after
years of expensive legal battles, will greatly hamper networking
development and will stifle freedom of expression online, rendering all
electronic communications subject to censorship so that adults are
limited to accessing and expressing only that which is suitable for
children.
Additionally, the new version introduces a new problem: It protects only
large commercial service providers from more-restrictive state laws. The
draft states: "No State or local government may impose any liability
for commercial activities or actions by commercial entities...that is
inconsistent with the treatment of those violations under this section..."
EFF concurs with the Center for Democracy & Technology in finding no
valid argument for according greater protection to commercial than
non-commercial speech. Indeed the entire history of commercial
regulation and free speech jurisprudence in the U.S. points in the
opposite direction. The CDA revisions would leave individuals, educational
institutions, non-profit organizations, users' groups and all others
besides commercial interests subject to whatever censorship measures states
might wish to enact on whatever whim.
The draft changes to the Exon bill, showing what was deleted and what was
added, are available at:
http://www.eff.org/pub/Legislation/Bills_by_number/s652_051995_amend.draft
ftp.eff.org, /pub/Legislation/Bills_by_number/s652_051995_amend.draft
gopher.eff.org, 1/EFF/Legislation/Bills_by_number, s652_051995_amend.draft
* Sen. Lott to Attempt to Rip Sysop Defenses from Exon Bill
CDT in their alert regarding the Dole/Grassley bill also note that
Sen. Trent Lott (R-MS) has announced plans to introduce an amendment to
S.652 to remove all of the service provider defenses from the Exon
language (the CDA). *This move would make the Exon bill even more of a
privacy and free speech threat than the original Exon bill.* Holding
system operators liable for the posts of users over which they hold no
editorial control threatens to put most providers out of business, stifle
free expression online, and force the remaining providers to become
full-time censors and invaders of user privacy.
[Apologies to those who also receive CDT newsletters and get essentially
two copies of this information, but its relevance here and its effect on
the now extreme urgency of the main action alert in this newsletter and
on the Leahy petition drive requires at least summarizing the main points
here again.]
The text of the Lott amendment will be available as soon as we receive it
from:
http://www.eff.org/pub/Alerts/
ftp.eff.org, /pub/Alerts/
gopher.eff.org, 1/Alerts
Look for a file with "lott" in the filename.
* The Other Side of the Coin: Feinstein Bill v. Bomb Material Online
Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) has drafted an amendment to the Senate
Comprehensive Terrorism Prevention bill, S.735, of Sen. Dole. Like the CDA
revisions, this remains an unintroduced draft, on hold until its parent
bill is in open discussion in the Senate. The draft intends to:
"prohibit the dissemination of information on the making of explosive
materials with intent or knowledge that such information will be used for
a criminal purpose."
The draft amendment would mandate up to twenty years in prison for anyone
who "teach[es] or demonstrate[s] the making of explosive materials, or...
disseminate[s] by any means information pertaining to, in whole or in part,
the manufacture of explosive materials" if the person even "resonably
should know" that such explosives or information "is [sic] likely to be
used for, or in furtherance of, a federal offense or other criminal
purpose affecting interstate commerce."
Though the legislation does not directly mention the Internet, it is
certainly drafted to apply to online media, and was inspired by what
Feinstein perceives (or hears about in the media, since it is unlikely
the Senator has actually ever logged in and found any bombmaking
instructions online) as tools for terrorism on computer networks. The
agenda is clear. Feinstein, herself a near-victim of a failed letter-bombing
attempt, along with other legislators, representatives of the
Administration, and spokespersons from the civil liberties community,
participated in a May 11 Senate Terrorism Committee hearing on "The
Availability of Bomb Making Information On The Internet". Feinstein
suggested that bomb-making data be banned from the net, according to
_Interactive_Week_. Calling such materials information that "teaches
people to kill" she stated that it is "pushing the envelope of free
speech to the extremes." Feinstein was asked, and did not answer, if
she intended to ban such materials (e.g. the widely available
_Anarchist_Cookbook_) from bookstores, after she suggested
that the "doctrine of prior restraint is one we have to look at",
because such information "isn't what this country is all about."
Others likely to support the Feinstein amendment if introduced when the
anti-terrorism bill hits the Senate floor include Sen. Herb Kohl (D-WI) and
the Justice Department. Kohl at the same hearing commented that Americans
would be shocked at the "dark back alleys of the Internet... In other words,
the industry acts now, or Congress will do it for you... After all, if we
have the technology to get kids on the Internet, we have should have the
technology to get them off." Expanding on the overused outrage-generator of
protecting kids from the evils of electronic communications, Dep. Asst.
Atty. Gen. Robert Litt, testified, "Not only do would-be terrorists have
access to detailed information on how to construct explosives, but so do
children."
Experienced BBS and Internet users may marvel at the seeming gullibility
of these hearing pronouncements. It is clear that Kohl, Feinstein and Litt
are unware, or choose to ignore, that most of the material they are
decrying is actually written by minors - neither very accurate nor
likely at all to be used by terrorists - and that far more reliable
information on topics like the anatomy of a bomb can be had from most
public libraries (e.g. in the _Encyclopaedia_Britannica_), and from the
U.S. government itself. Brock Meeks writing for _Interactive_Week_
notes that the very bomb type used to destroy the Federal Building in
Oklahoma City is covered in a "detailed recipe" in the Forestry
Service's own readily available _Blaster's_Handbook_.
Others at the hearing, including Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-VT), warned against
looking to censorship for a solution. Leahy retorted that the real problem
is "harmful and dangerous conduct, not speech". Sen. Arlen Specter (R-PA),
who chaired the hearing, appeared to remain rather neutral on the issue,
being neither certain that censorship and access restriction to online
material was technically feasible, nor encouraged to call for censorship
by the DoJ's admission that they had no evidence at all of crimes taking
place as a result of information gathered from the Internet.
The full text of the Feinstein draft can be found at
http://www.eff.org/Bills_by_number/s735_95_feinstein_amend.draft
ftp.eff.org, /pub/Legislation/Bills_by_number/s735_95_feinstein_amend.draft
gopher.eff.org, 1/Legislation/Bills_by_number, s735_95_feinstein_amend.draft
There's plenty more to worry about from this and other anti-terrorism
legislation, most of which proposes one or more unconstitional
"solutions" to perceived problems, and many of which seek to expand, in
some cases radically, law enforcement and intelligence wiretapping
authority and abilities. These bills, archived by bill number, are
also available in the Bills_by_number directory at the sites above.
* Prodigy Potentially Liable for User Postings
In a case that could have major ramifications for BBS system operators and
Internet newsgroup moderators, a New York state trial court ruled that
communications service provider Prodigy Services Company may be liable for
potentially libelous statements made by one of its users. Prodigy was sued
by the securities investment banking firm of Stratton Oakmont, Inc., and
its president, Daniel Porush, for statements made by an unidentified poster
on Prodigy's Money Talk bulletin board. The statements claimed that
Stratton Oakmont committed criminal and fraudulant acts in connection with
the initial public offering of stock of Solomon-Page, Ltd.
Stratton Oakmont and Porush sued Prodigy, the volunteer moderator of the
Money Talk forum, and the anonymous user who made the postings. Prodigy
filed a motion for summary judgment, asking to be dismissed from the case
on the claim that Prodigy could not be held responsible for the postings of
its users.
On May 24, 1995, the court held that Prodigy had editorial control over the
messages in the Money Talk forum and was therefore liable for the content
of those messages. According to the New York Supreme Court (which is a
trial level court in New York), Prodigy's policy of systematically
monitoring messages made it liable for the content of these messages.
In addition, the court held that since Prodigy directed and controlled the
actions of volunteer Board Leaders, at least for the limited purpose of
monitoring and editing the Money Talk bulletin board, Prodigy was
responsible for the actions of its Board Leaders.
------------------------------
Subject: Calendar of Events
---------------------------
This schedule lists EFF events, and those we feel might be of interest to
our members. EFF events (those sponsored by us or featuring an EFF speaker)
are marked with a "*" instead of a "-" after the date. Simlarly, government
events, such as deadlines for comments on reports or testimony submission, are
marked with "!" in place of the "-" after the date.
If you know of an event of some sort that should be listed here, please
send info about it to Stanton McCandlish (mech@eff.org)
The latest full version of this calendar, which includes material for
later in the year as well as the next couple of months, is available from:
ftp: ftp.eff.org, /pub/EFF/calendar.eff
gopher: gopher.eff.org, 1/EFF, calendar.eff
http://www.eff.org/pub/EFF/calendar.eff
Updated: Jun. 6, 1995
June 7-
9 - Third International Conference on Artificial Intelligence
Applications on Wall Street; Pace University, New York City, NY.
Contact: +1 914 763 8820 (voice), +1 914 763 9324 (fax)
Email: satwell@mcimail.com
June 8-
10 - Exploring the VideoClass Alternative; Raleigh, N. Carolina.
Email: tom_russell@ncsu.edu
June 11-
14 - Society & the Future of Computing (SFC'95); Tamarron Lodge,
Durango, Colorado. Sponsored by the Assoc. for Computing
Machinery, LANL, U. of Md., IEEE. Speakers will include Phil Agre
(UCSD), Leslie Sandberg (Institute for Telemedicine), Wm.
Halverson (PacBell), Don Norman (Apple), Linda Garcia
(Congressional Office of Technology Assessment), John
Cherniavsky (Natl. Science Found.) and several others.
Email: sfc95@lanl.gov
WWW: http://www.lanl.gov/LANLNews/Conferences/.sfc95/sfcHome.html/
June 13-
15 - IDT 95 - 12th Congress on Information Markets and Industries;
Paris, France. Organized by ADBS (a society of information
professionals), ANRT (National Association of Technological
Research), and GFII (French association of information industries).
Contact: +33 1 43 72 25 25 (voice), +33 1 43 72 30 41 (fax)
June 17-
19 - NECC'95: Emerging Technologies and Lifelong Learning: 16th Annual
National Educational Computing Conf., sponsored by International
Society for Technology in Education; Baltimore, Maryland.
VP Gore and Sec'y. of Labor Robert Reich invited as keynote
speakers. Other speakers include: John Phillipo (CELT), Frank
Knott (MGITB)
Contact: +1 503 346 2834 (voice), +1 503 346 5890 (fax)
Email: necc95@ccmail.uoregon.edu
June 18-
21 - ED-MEDIA'95; Graz, Austria. A world conference on educational
multimedia and hypermedia. Sponsor: The Association for the
Advancement of Computing.
Contact: +1 804 973 3987 (voice)
Email: aace@virginia.edu.
June 24-
28 - Workshop on Ethical & Professional Issues in Computing;
Rensselaer Polytechnic Inst., Troy, NY. Deadline for submissions:
Apr. 15.
Contact: +1 518 276 8503 (voice), +1 518 276 2659 (fax)
Email: cherkt@rpi.edu
June 27-
29 - Women in Technology Conference: Channels for Change; Santa Clara
Conv. Ctr., Santa Clara, Calif. Speakers include: Gloria Steinem.
Sponsored by Int'l. Network of Women in Technology (WITI).
Contact: +1 818 990 1987 (voice), +1 818 906 3299 (fax)
Email: witi@crl.com
June 28-
30 - INET '95 Internet Society 5th Ann. International Networking
Conf.; Honolulu, Hawaii. Sponsored by Internet Society (ISoc).
See Jan. 13 for proposal deadline
Contact: +1 703 648 9888 (voice)
FTP: ftp.isoc.org, /isoc/inet95/
Gopher: gopher.isoc.org, 1/isoc/inet95
WWW: http://www.isoc.org/inet95.html
Email: inet95@isoc.org
July 5-
7 - Key Players in the Introduction of Information Technology: Their
Social Responsibility & Professional Training; Namur, Belgium.
Sponsored by CREIS.
Email: nolod@ccr.jussieu.fr, clobet@info.fundp.ac.be
July 5-
8 - Alliance for Community Media International Conference and Trade
Show. [See Jan. 31 for proposal submission deadline info].
Contact: Alliance c/o MATV, 145 Pleasant St., Malden, MA 02148
Fax: (617) 321-7121; Voice: Rika Welsh (617) 321-6400
Email: matv@world.std.com
July 5-
8 - 18th International Conf. on Research & Development in Information
Retrieval; Sheraton Hotel, Seattle, Wash.
Email: sigir95@u.washington.edu
July 6-
7 ! Interoperability & the Economics of Information Infrastructure;
Freedom Forum, Rosslyn, Virginia. IITF/NSF/Harvard/FFMSC joint
workshop to "analyze and evaluate economic incentives and
impediments to achieving interoperability in the National
Information Infrastructure. The goal is to help agencies,
associations, the Administration, and the Congress to develop
sound policies for realizing the vision of a seamless,
interoperating NII. Deadline for proposals: Mar. 17. Deadline
for submissions: June 15.
Contact: +1 617 495 8903 (voice), +1 617 495 5776 (fax)
Email: kahin@harvard.edu
July 11-
15 - '95 Joint International Conference: Association for Computers and
the Humanties, and Association for Literacy and Linguistic
Computing; UCSB, Santa Barbara, Calif. Will highlight the
development of new computing methodologies for research and
teaching in the humanities
Contact: Eric Dahlin, +1 805 687 5003 (voice)
Email: hcf1dahl@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu
July 22-
26 - Syllabus'95; Sonoma State U., Rohnert Park, Calif.
"The premier conference covering the use of technology in the
curriculum"
Contact: 1-800-773-0670 (voice, US-only), +1 408 746 200 (voice,
elsewhere)
Email: syllabus@netcom.com
------------------------------
Subject: Quote of the Week
--------------------------
In light of the advent of Sen. Feinstein's draft bill, we'll keep last
issue's quote of the week for this issue too:
"It is no solution to define words as violence or prejudice as
oppression, and then by cracking down on words or thoughts pretend that
we are doing something about violence and oppression. No doubt it is
easier to pass a speech code or hate-crimes law and proclaim the streets
safer than actually to make the streets safer, but the one must never be
confused with the other...Indeed, equating "verbal violence" with
physical violence is a treacherous, mischievous business."
- Jonathon Rauch, in an essay in _Harper's_Magazine_, May 1995
Find yourself wondering if your privacy and freedom of speech are safe
when bills to censor the Internet are swimming about in a sea of of
surveillance legislation and anti-terrorism hysteria? Worried that in
the rush to protect us from ourselves that our government representatives
may deprive us of our essential civil liberties?
Join EFF!
------------------------------
Subject: What YOU Can Do
------------------------
* Communications Decency Act (the Exon Legislation)
The Communications Decency Act poses serious threats to freedom of
expression online, and to the livelihoods of system operators. The
legislation also undermines several crucial privacy protections.
Business/industry persons concerned should alert their corporate govt.
affairs office and/or legal counsel. Everyone should write to their own
Senators and ask them to support the replacement of Exon's
communications decency language in the Senate telecom reform bill s.652
with S. 714, Sen. Leahy's alternative to the Comm. Decency Act. Explain
quickly, clearly and politely, why you feel the Exon language is dangerous.
S.652, the Senate telecom deregulation bill, now contains Sen. Exon's
"Communications Decency Act" (formerly S.314.) The House version of the
CDA, H.R.1004, is essentially stalled. The House telecom reform bill
will almost certainly include the Leahy language, a fact that may be
worth mentioning to your Senators.
For more information on what you can do to help stop this and other
dangerous legislation, see:
ftp.eff.org, /pub/Alerts/
gopher.eff.org, 1/Alerts
http://www.eff.org/pub/Alerts/
If you do not have full internet access, send your request
for information to ask@eff.org.
* The Dole/Grassley Draft Internet Censorship Bill
As above, contact your Senators, and ask them to oppose this legislation,
and to support the Leahy amendment to S.652.
* The Lott Draft Amendment to the Exon Legislation
As above, contact your Senators, and ask them to oppose this amendment to
the Senate Telecom Bill. Ask the to not only oppose this but oppose all
of the Communications Decency Act, urging them to support the Leahy
alternative, currently S.714.
* The Feinstein Draft Internet Censorship Bill
As above, contact your Senators, and ask them to oppose the addition of
any such legislation, particular that authored by Sen. Feinstein, to the
Dole "Comprehensive Terrorism Prevention Act", S.735. You may also wish
to express your concerns about other civil liberties problems raised by
the bill, and encourage your Senator to vote against such proposals until
a proper study and period of public evaluation an input have taken place.
* Find Out Who Your Congresspersons Are
Writing letters to, faxing, and phoning your representatives in Congress
is one very important strategy of activism, and an essential way of
making sure YOUR voice is heard on vital issues.
EFF has lists of the Senate and House with contact information, as well
as lists of Congressional committees. These lists are available at:
ftp.eff.org, /pub/Activism/Congress_cmtes/
gopher.eff.org, 1/EFF/Issues/Activism/Congress_cmtes
http://www.eff.org/pub/Activism/Congress_cmtes/
The full Senate and House lists are senate.list and hr.list, respectively.
Those not in the U.S. should seek out similar information about their
own legislative bodies. EFF will be happy to archive any such
information provided. If you do not know who your Representatives are,
you should contact you local League of Women Voters, who typically maintain
databases that can help you find out.
* Join EFF!
You *know* privacy, freedom of speech and ability to make your voice heard
in government are important. You have probably participated in our online
campaigns and forums. Have you become a member of EFF yet? The best way to
protect your online rights is to be fully informed and to make your
opinions heard. EFF members are informed and are making a difference. Join
EFF today!
For EFF membership info, send queries to membership@eff.org, or send any
message to info@eff.org for basic EFF info, and a membership form.
------------------------------
Administrivia
=============
EFFector Online is published by:
The Electronic Frontier Foundation
1667 K St. NW, Suite 801
Washington DC 20006-1605 USA
+1 202 861 7700 (voice)
+1 202 861 1258 (fax)
+1 202 861 1223 (BBS - 16.8k ZyXEL)
+1 202 861 1224 (BBS - 14.4k V.32bis)
Membership & donations: membership@eff.org
Legal services: ssteele@eff.org
Hardcopy publications: pubs@eff.org
General EFF, legal, policy or online resources queries: ask@eff.org
Editor:
Stanton McCandlish, Online Services Mgr./Activist/Archivist (mech@eff.org)
This newsletter printed on 100% recycled electrons.
Reproduction of this publication in electronic media is encouraged. Signed
articles do not necessarily represent the views of EFF. To reproduce
signed articles individually, please contact the authors for their express
permission. Press releases and EFF announcements may be reproduced individ-
ually at will.
To subscribe to EFFector via email, send message body of "subscribe
effector-online" (without the "quotes") to listserv@eff.org, which will add
you to a subscription list for EFFector.
Back issues are available at:
ftp.eff.org, /pub/EFF/Newsletters/EFFector/
gopher.eff.org, 1/EFF/Newsletters/EFFector
http://www.eff.org/pub/EFF/Newsletters/EFFector/
To get the latest issue, send any message to effector-reflector@eff.org (or
er@eff.org), and it will be mailed to you automagically. You can also get
the file "current" from the EFFector directory at the above sites at any
time for a copy of the current issue. HTML editions available at:
http://www.eff.org/pub/EFF/Newsletters/EFFector/HTML/
at EFFweb.
End of EFFector Online v08 #07 Digest
*************************************
$$
--Boundary (ID 5DUVCRxR4cSyiQPnYiT/yw)--
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 12:36:48 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ryan Knighton <knighton@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Sentimentality, music etc
In-Reply-To: <00991877.16418D60.3310@cpcmg.uea.ac.uk> from "I.LIGHTMAN" at Jun
7, 95 03:51:59 pm
It seems that this dichotomy of three-chord vs. non-three-chord
music dovetails into the, albeit short, "discipline discussion.
I would agree with George on the basis of craft and complexity
that Hole lives up to its name. But I too find that when you
aren't looking for a bravado fireworks of musical discipline,
there is a raw grace to powerchords which enoys the subtlety
of broad strokes. Fine. Posing I don't need. Jesus & Mary Chain,
the old stuff like Psychocandy, comes to mind. Biker disco.
I find my favourite music falls into genre bending. Tom Waits and
Cowboy Junkies have opened me to Western and Crooning by interrogating
the conventions and storylines that accompany, usually. Tom Waits
acts, assumes a voice and character: Gun Street Girl, for ex. The
music follows not out of loyalty to theory or tradition, but to the
costumes and cracks.
asdf
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 12:54:16 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ryan Knighton <knighton@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: discipline
In-Reply-To: <199506070710.AAA23612@whistler.sfu.ca> from "Sheila E. Murphy"
at Jun 7, 95 00:09:57 am
Sheila,
I'm glad you enjoyed the post and I appreciate your encouragement.
I think what is daunting,t o me, is that Vancouver is not yet
a metropolis bursting at the seams. The result is a small scene,
say, six or seven open mike venues, usually run by friends with
similar expectations about mikepoetry and presuppositions about
the audience. The result is deja-vu from club to club and an
incestuous quality.
Case in point:
One reader at a local club reads everyweek with great applause
and guffaw because he is soooo offensive and gross: "Fuck cops /
they should die with guns up their ass" stuff. The audience
gets a kick out of watching how naughty someone can be, it seems.
He now has a large following and because he sells seats his friends
are reading too: same stuff. One even wrote a tribute to the
"cop guy", as he's known.
I don't think this is a new situation in poetry, but it is felt
more where venues and audience's are limited and liminal. It also
makes me wonder more about the audience than the writer: is this
a community of poetry readers which has always been, or is it new
and growing?
Best,
Ryan
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 21:07:24 +0000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: cris cheek <cris@SLANG.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: fibrous optical site locations
Comments: cc: Kenneth Goldsmith <kgolds@panix.com>,
braman sandra <s-braman@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>,
"I.LIGHTMAN" <I.Lightman@east-anglia.ac.uk>,
Caroline Bergvall <bergvall@dcolarts.demon.co.uk>,
Erik Belgum <belgu003@gold.tc.umn.edu>,
Gary Sullivan <gpsj@primenet.com>,
John Cayley <cayley@shadoof.demon.co.uk>,
Robert A Harrison <Robert.A.Harrison@jci.com>,
"Sheila E. Murphy" <semurphy@indirect.com>,
John Byrum <JMBYRUM@aol.com>,
Mn Center For Book Arts <mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu>,
w.curnow@auckland.ac.nz, Blair Seagram <blairsea@panix.com>,
selby@slip.net
>cris, hi:
>
>--with respect to what you noted regarding the formation of a list for
>visual/sound poetry, i'm told a list can be enacted here (at simon fraser
>univ. in vancouver), and if you wish to consider that i can get the ball
>rolling. but i know this is completely your baby, and it will remain so.
>like yourself, though, i have a serious interest in and love of
>"concrete," and want to do anything i can to re-invent the public for it.
>but it's your call
>
>look forward to hearing from you
>carl
Carl, all bowing and kssing of hands aside - help - it's not 'my baby',
the point I was hoping to make. It's a shared interest and I was seekng a
simple mechanism for exchange. So if there's majordomo tech at Simon Fraser
and there's the energy to set that in motion I'd say great, please go for
that.
>cris--
>
>yesterday blair sent me a gif of a visual poem via e-mail. it worked
>beautifully! this is the way to go!
Backing this message up. That's all. Waiting to hear from others but my
sense is go on Carl - yep, let's move. Doesn't preempt poetics list
discussions or digests in that space either.
love and love
cris
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 14:48:14 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Carl Lynden Peters <clpeters@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: fibrous optical site locations
In-Reply-To: <9506072104.aa07536@post.demon.co.uk> from "cris cheek" at Jun 7,
95 09:07:24 pm
criss,
ok, i'll see what i can do, and get back to you soon
take care,
carl
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 14:51:54 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Reginald Johanson <reginalj@SFU.CA>
Subject: discipline
On June 6, George Bowering said that the open mike scene was usually
dissapointing. And I would say yes it is--but disappointing to whom,
and why? Disappointing very often to me, but is that strictly a
matter of bruised ego that then gets intellectualized into a
statement like "they wouldn't know a good poem if one slapped them in
the face"? I think there may be something of this in my
disappointment. And, as someone else has mentioned here (sorry name
escapes me) the young poet whose stuff is rejected by the lit.
establishment university people says the same thing and goes to the
open mike night where they *really* appreciate *real* poetry etc. So
maybe, if myself and others are on the margins between these two (and
other) traditions that's actually a rather dynamic place to be,
drawing (hopefully) on the best of all of it.
reg
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 15:36:50 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: opportunity knocks
Hey people,
I'm putting together a reading series for the fall and winter of next year,
for Small Press Traffic. It is to be an experimental series with a heavy
multi-cultural emphasis--and it is to highlight 5 small presses (one press
per evening, two readers published by that press), to promote those
presses. Included in the project will be a newsletter with work by the
readers, as well as reviews of various books by the presses. There is some
money for this, but I'm not sure exactly how much. All the readers will be
paid. I may do more than 5 evenings.
So, anybody interested in this? Anybody published by a small press
planning to be in the Bay Area in the fall or winter? I'd like to put a
tentative list together by the end of this month.
Thanks,
Dodie Bellamy
And, Maria D.--other than the fact that Susan Howe's reading was
mouth-gapingly incredible, anything else interesting I'd have to say about
Blaserfest would be strictly backchannel, i.e., Gossipfest. <grin>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 19:08:54 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Alan Sondheim <sondheim@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: Sentimentality, music etc
In-Reply-To: <00991877.16418D60.3310@cpcmg.uea.ac.uk>
I had another meeting with someone from Cybermind today and we were
talking about alternative rock music and both realized that strangely
enough it's the one area that's remained impervious to academia. Even
performance art/video have their place in the middle of the university,
but it's hard to assimilate Hole and the like and that's part of what's
incredible about the music, that it can be analyzed (to death) within
institutional structures, but remains outside, even with recording
contracts, etc. Just a look at CBGB's compared to St. Mark's down the
street or a writing class. So there's a lot of nervous energy and some
incredible stuff going on at what might still be considered the margins
(Soul Coughing for example)...
Alan
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 19:30:39 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Alan Sondheim <sondheim@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: sentimentality
In-Reply-To: <199506071805.LAA20998@fraser.sfu.ca>
I've known a fair number of rock stars, some were students of mine, some
just friends, and they took their work as seriously as I take mine or as
the poets I've known take theirs. I don't see why rock isn't as much an
art as any other cultural form; I don't even see what possible argument
could be made against it. If you don't like it, fine, but not to _recog-
nize_ it as art is something else again. I wouldn't want to be the
student for example of someone who couldn't understand why I'd take Hole,
whatever, seriously.
Alan
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 17:46:01 -0700
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Lindz Williamson <lmichell@UNIXG.UBC.CA>
Subject: hole
In-Reply-To: <199506070431.VAA11937@unixg.ubc.ca>
On Tue, 6 Jun 1995, George Bowering wrote:
> I dont know where Lindz gets the idea about east-west bashing at the
> Blaserfest and readings. I was there all the way and didnt notice it.
> It is also not true that Ondaatje was the only eastern Canadian poet
> at the readings; there were plenty. McCaffery and Mac Cormack, Robt
> Hogg, Victor Coleman, for examples. Erin Moure was there. And we
> embraced all these people as ourselves.
>
I seem to remeber several references to grilling and serving sundried
things in a couple poems, which are things I never hear or see in TOronto.
Victor himself who just moved west 18 months ago seemed pretty eager to
boast of seeing the light and moving west. At the same time there was a
sense of I've been ther, done that, lived the tough life in the east, but
I'm adjusting to things out here.
Aswell personally I don't mind Hole, it's good to listen to loud
and jump around to when I'm feeling pissy. But Courtney Love is an idiot.
I read in an interview with Trent Reznor( Nine Inch Nails) that when she
was opening for them she passed out on a pool table after a show. HEr
band mates proceeded to hike her dress up under her pits and snap shots of
her panties and bare ass. Now that is grunge.
Lindz
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 17:57:12 -0700
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Watts <cwatts@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: adios muchachos
In-Reply-To: <199506060632.XAA11181@whistler.sfu.ca> from "Lindz Williamson"
at Jun 5, 95 11:29:16 pm
Lindz,
You forgot to mention (notice?) that in addition to Michael Ondaatje,
there were Bob Hogg (Ottawa), Steve McCaffery (Kingston/Toronto),
Karen Mac Cormack (ditto), Jed Rasula (ditto), and Victor Coleman
(Toronto if there ever
was one). And from east of Vancouver but still in the west: E.D.
Blodgett (Edmonton), Fred Wah (Calgary), Hilary Clark (Sakatoon).
Certainly not a huge showing of easterners, but certainly not an
attempt to freeze out easterners.
In fact: Brian Fawcett (previously
of Vancouver but now of Toronto) was asked (couldn't come); Lola
Tostevin (Toronto) was asked, thought she might, but ultimately
couldn't come; Nicole Brossard (Montreal) was asked; couldn't come. A
serious miss, someone I wanted to have but never quite got to: Chris
Dewdney (Toronto). It would have been wonderful to have Chris there,
as it would have been to have Nicole and Lola and Brian. Yes, it's
true, there was a much greater representation of the Canadian west
than of the east (what would you expect of a festival in honour of a
poet whose residence for the past thirty years has been in Vancouver,
whose closest friends are in Vancouver?) but "Toronto bashing?" Never
even a consideration. Remember that Coach House (Toronto) published
THE HOLY FOREST. More important issues than local rivalries were the
stuff of the conference. I can't imagine a non-issue more beside the
point, or more grotesquely misrepresenting the spirit of the
conference and festival--which included quite a few writers from
outside Canada.
Charles Watts>
> But when you say, "He tells me you don't get enough Canadian stuff and
> we'll be pleased to supply, but not represent the whole as the Conference
> was a "western" affair. Lots of Toronto bashing was in the air." -- I'm
> not certain what you mean, or if you are just replying to Ryan in some
> personal way I don't get. Just know that not all tuned to this list have
> loyalties to Toronto or Vancouver or Buffalo or any particular place. My
> own are curiously displaced toward the Arizona desert, where there are a
> few people who are on this poetics list as well.
>
> Charles,
>
> I wasn't replying to Ryan, rather Ryan was approached by Kevin
> Killian at the reading last night and I accompanied Ryan to the reading
> along with Reg ( new to the list). Kevin expressed an interest in
> receiving new Canadian poetry from Ryan and I and any others we knew
> because he had little except from established writers. The western
> reference is just part of the continuing war amongst East and West in
> Canada. We the west ( Granola Heads) enjoy poking at the Snobs with snow
> in the east. As far as I know Ondaatje was the only Eastern based writer
> at the reading last night.
> It's all part of the Canadian mentality, if you say you're driving
> across Canada it means you're either going east to Toronto or Montreal, or
> west to Vancouver. The prairies and the maritimes although great sources
> of Canadian culture are not included in the concept of the civilized
> world. They are a source of great insecurity and pride. My Mom's a
> maritimer (Newfie) which puts me at the but of several jokes. I'll leave
> you with one (note my Mom has seven brothers)
>
>
> How does a Newfie girl stay a virgin?
>
> Run faster than her brothers.
>
>
> Lindz
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 18:11:23 -0700
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Reginald Johanson <reginalj@SFU.CA>
Subject: sentimentality
Whenever I want to take pop music "seriously", I'm almost always
defeated by the musicians themselves, many of whom would find this
(w)Hole discussion completely absurd: "Artists?" I can hear them
saying, "we'd rather be dead than artists. Pete bloody Townshend
thinks he's an artist."
reg
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 12:46:08 +1000
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Mark Roberts <M.Roberts@UNSW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: sentimentality
>Whenever I want to take pop music "seriously", I'm almost always
>defeated by the musicians themselves, many of whom would find this
>(w)Hole discussion completely absurd: "Artists?" I can hear them
>saying, "we'd rather be dead than artists. Pete bloody Townshend
>thinks he's an artist."
>reg
I thought Pete "bloody" Townshend was a poet!!! Seriously, I 'discovered'
poetry by reading the lyrics to rock songs as a teenager and I still think
'pop' music can be taken seriously. Of course there is pop music and pop
music - one might have trouble taking Abba seriously while it is far too
easy to take Nick Cave seriously! Could I ask the question can one take
'jazz' seriously. I mean some of those jazz players..........
Mark
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 13:00:12 +1000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Mark Roberts <M.Roberts@UNSW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Sentimentality, music etc
>I had another meeting with someone from Cybermind today and we were
>talking about alternative rock music and both realized that strangely
>enough it's the one area that's remained impervious to academia. Even
>performance art/video have their place in the middle of the university,
>but it's hard to assimilate Hole and the like and that's part of what's
>incredible about the music, that it can be analyzed (to death) within
>institutional structures, but remains outside, even with recording
>contracts, etc. Just a look at CBGB's compared to St. Mark's down the
>street or a writing class. So there's a lot of nervous energy and some
>incredible stuff going on at what might still be considered the margins
>(Soul Coughing for example)...
>
>Alan
There have been some attempts that have almost succeeded. Back in the late
70's when I was an undergrad at Sydney Uni the Philosophy dept had split in
two with the traditional philosophers going one way and the marxists,
feminists, punks etc going the other. I remember some amazing aesthetics
discussion on punk culture/music . Some of the lecturers were in a band
called The Slugfuckers - great stuff.
Mark
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 23:07:58 -0400
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Alan Sondheim <sondheim@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: sentimentality
In-Reply-To: <199506080111.SAA21438@fraser.sfu.ca>
Depends on the musicians. Many of the ones I know would find it absurd
_not_ to be considered artists. The same as poets or any other group.
And who cares how Courtney behaves? Rimbaud was a model, Chatterton?
People are people...
Alan
On Wed, 7 Jun 1995, Reginald Johanson wrote:
> Whenever I want to take pop music "seriously", I'm almost always
> defeated by the musicians themselves, many of whom would find this
> (w)Hole discussion completely absurd: "Artists?" I can hear them
> saying, "we'd rather be dead than artists. Pete bloody Townshend
> thinks he's an artist."
> reg
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 21:02:42 -0700
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Lindz Williamson <lmichell@UNIXG.UBC.CA>
Subject: sensitive
In-Reply-To: <199506080057.RAA23315@monashee.sfu.ca>
I only attended the sunday night reading, not the Saturday night
reading which had a by far more diverse and longer line up. I was merely
refering to murmurs I heard in passing through the crowd during the
intermissions. I might be hyper sensitive to Easterns because of recent
experiences on campus when young Torontonians folk west to get their BA,
take up snowboarding and excahnge snow for mild rainy winters. All I
ever hear is " This is such a town. . ." "We had/ got /did / this ages
ago in Toronto. . ." " Everyone is so laid back and happy here, what's
wrong with you people." and so forth. I was merely pleased that on
Sunday the west was being appreciated. Some of my favorite writers are
from the east, some of my most dear friends are in the east.
But what I've constantly been overwhelmed by lately is the
emerging regionality of Canada. In matters of economy, geography, and
social atmosphere I find relationships form from North to South. Seattle
has more incommon with Vancouver than Calgary, Winnipeg or Toronto. In
matters of writing I find the same trend follows. I can only write what
I know and feel and represent wher I have been. And from MY
interpretaion of the SUnday night reading western Canadian experinces
were largely the basis of the reading. Victor even presented a poem (
the title escapes me ) about how he had to adjust to living in Vancouver
(remember the alphabet poem).
Ondaatje spole beautifully of the unearthing of Buddhist statues,
now although he resides in eastern Cnada this is an out of Province,
country, continent, experience. He may not write about Canada, but I
belive Cnada does exsist if not influence his writing. Would coming
through slaughter be the same book if was written in the Queen Charlottes?
Or a better example is Runnign In the Family, the duality of experience
between Sri Lanka and Canada is totally evident in the writing.
My point is geography affects/ infects not only writing, but
audiences, and conferences, and readings.
LIndz
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 00:30:37 -0400
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: John Byrum <JMBYRUM@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: sentimentality
Hey George, listen to some Nirvana. Good stuff, some interesting lyrics
reminiscent of Lang Po approaches to composition; sung in gravelly voice and
"scream style", with suitably "bad" "I can't give a shit 'cause the world's
too fucked up (teen angst)" guitars & arrangements.
Nirvana was the best available in the current "alternative" entertainment
scene.
NOTE: This reply has:
Half of tongue in cheek, half drug along ground.
John Byrum
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 22:26:01 +0100
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: Re: Warren Sonbert 1947-1995
Thank you Charles for reminding us all about Warren Sonbert.
>Warren Sonbert died on Wednesday, at home and surrounded by friends. He was
>47 years old.
He
>seemed to live a charmed life -- travelling the world, attending operas in
>Europe and North American, having his work shown at Festivals and museums.
>But charms are haunted.
>
Oh how I remember how I kept bugging Warren to "cast" me in one of his
films & him explaining patiently that his films weren't really "cast" in
that way-he said once that my shadow could appear in one-but that wasn't
enough for me . . . I remember how he was so generous & expansive & we
argued about George Cukor over and over. How when my 2nd play appeared he
wrote this thumbs-up review in the paper that thrilled all of us who were
in it, tho' I knew he only came in the 1st place to take in Carla
Harryman's skillful, wiggy impersonation of Dodie. Oh, when will this
terrible disease leave us all alone & go back to whatever hole it climbed
out of in space, but that will never happen unless we do more. God bless
him & thank you again, Charles.
-Kevin Killian
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 23:36:41 +0100
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: Report on Blaser Conference
Maria Damon wrote:
>speaking of the blaser conference, cd someone --or several of you --so we can
>compile a composite profile --give us a report over the net for those of us who
>are interested but unable to attend? hi pts, lo pts, entertaining anecdotes,
>and overall vibe-picture? how's he doing anyway? descriptions, poems, riffs,
>meditations and reminiscences? thanks in advance! --maria d
My Report-Kevin Killian
Brief & sketchy. Okay, well the "hi pts" for me were as follows:
Dodie is right about Susan Howe & that she stole the show during this one
long reading with 22 poets. She stood on tiptoes and read & made everyone
else seem half baked-no-pallid. Well actually I enjoyed some other
readings quite a bit-incl. Deanna Ferguson, Dorothy Lusk Trujillo or
whatever her name is, and other Canadian poets new to me. Pierre Joris,
your camel poem sure pleased the crowd, or was it camels, or horses?
Steve McCaffery is a God. Susan Clark gave a very emotional, moving
reading, and Lisa Robertson is becoming the new updated Elizabeth Smart.
I had heard Karen MacCormack here in San Francisco before, but now she is
even better, understated, in control, dignified, a dynamo too.
Joanne Kyger read a piece about seeing Quan Yin-the Buddhist goddess-or
whatever-and Dodie interviewed her in the women's "washroom" asking her if
she really saw Quan Yin and JK said, "Yes, but you have to be on the right
substance."
Gosh, I seem to be praising all these women, well, that's me to a T. I
didn't even mention Anne Waldman yet, a show all to herself . . . And what
about that Rachel Blau Du Plessis! Rachel if you're listening to this,
"Drafts" 24 has opened up to a new theatricality & largeness of expression
and scope that's just marvelous.
Several have noted how Robin was in attendance during every event-for 4
days, from 9:30 a.m. till past midnight. Needless to say I didn't match
his record & there were several panels I skipped or missed. I don't have
his stamina-however maybe if it was all about me I would have attended it
all too. His reading which climaxed the whole affaire was outstanding, he
read "Exody," "Even on Sunday," the new poem "Nomad" and another poem
that's in progress, very much so.
Great starpower! Speaking of which, I have a new dream man, Canadian poet
& novelist Michael Ondaatje. We had heard that he was the sexiest writer
in Canada, which is not quite the case close up, but nevertheless he has
piercing blue eyes & this wonderful accent I could listen to for a week on
end. Dodie spotted him first but I wasn't far behind. After that, all he
had to do was open his mouth or eyes and we were transfixed, like two
American rabbits caught in the headlights of an oncoming car. Duh. A
genius as far as I'm concerned. Dodie was quite jealous when she overheard
M.O. telling Catriona Strang that she was brilliant.
Okay, but Catriona was brilliant; the performance she gave with Francois
Houle, the avant-garde clarinetist, playing 2 clarinets at once at times,
while Catriona barked out syllables, words, gritty demanding sentences,
around the letters "R" and "B" made a sensation at the Festival Opening.
Charles Bernstein opened the "opening" with a very smart witty talk that
hit the right notes, including a rapidfire mention of all the groups Robin
has been associated with (Boston Gang, Vancouver poets, SF Renaissance, New
American poets, Berkeley Renaissance) then reminding us that he has been
all these things and more and none.
The organizers worked like dogs. I felt sorry for them but they did not
seem to be feeling sorry for themselves. Bravo to all! I saw most of
Charles Watts and Karen Tallman but everyone seemed totally together.
I did feel the strange disquieting presence of Warren Tallman, like a
ghost, haunting the whole conference and the whole city and I kept
wondering what he was making of all this hoopla.
One man called "Robert Hullot-Kentor" gave a fine, iconoclastic paper, very
Adorno-based, basically saying that there's no point to recovering the
public world, that today there's no public and in fact no world.
Next door to the Emily Carr School where the panels were held was a very
fine show called "In Search of Orpheus: Some Bay Area Poets & Painters
1945-65," curated by Scott Watson. Jess, Tom Field, Harry Jacobus, Blaser
himself, Lyn Brockway, a bright crayon drawing by Spicer, etc., etc, most
of the work from Blaser's own collection. Here the work of Fran Herndon
shone like a revelation. Here were the lithographs she did for Spicer's
book The Heads of the Town up to the Aether, and the larger sports-themed
collages you can see reproduced in Jim Herndon's book "Everything as
Expected." Fran Herndon was in Vancouver attending the conference in
person & received a tremendous ovation when picked out of the audience and
introduced. It's about time such a talented artist began receiving the
recognition due her. So to see it all happening before one's eyes was an
incredible lift. (Best news is, some of the work-including that shown at
the gallery- is for sale) (and not expensive either) (E mail me for more
details if you're interested)
Kristin Prevallet made a stir with her slide presentation, during the first
panel, "Companions," outlining the life & work of the late Helen Adam.
Prevallet's research into the Adam papers at the Lockwood Library showed us
all for the first time the extent and power of Adam's greatness as a poet &
writer. And artist too, for Prevallet was able to bring out of the
archives several-eight or nine?-of Helen Adam's unique collage-based works,
which were shown in the Scott Gallery as part of the Orpheus show-in fact
it's hard to figure how incomplete the show would have been without them.
For bibliophiles-the appearance of a dozen or so copies of Helen Adam's
rare White Rabbit book "The Queen o' Crow's Castle" (1958) ill. by Jess-on
the book table-for sale-and only $15.00 (Canadian) apiece-would have made
you swoon! Try and get one in San Francisco for less than $100.00
(American)-and these were white as snow, no trace of fading or foxing-MINT!
Well-they're all gone now for sure!
In fact the book table-book section-organized by Vancouver's Black Sheep
Books-was totally tempting & I must have spent, oh, God, I don't even want
to remember.
I had fun having lunch with Joanne Kyger, Dora FitzGerald, George Stanley
and Fran Herndon one sunny afternoon & then all of them sparking each other
to more and more remembrances of Spicer faster than I could take it all in
. . . and introducing them to Kristen so that they could tell her all
about Helen Adam . . . I had this eerie feeling of history right in my
hands.
There could have been another wonderful reading just culled from those who
were there in the audience, quite a swell crowd including Lee Ann Brown,
Elizabeth Willis, Erin Moure, Myung Mi Kim, Kevin Magee, Laynie Browne,
Matthew Stadler, Colin Smith, etc., etc.
I felt safe going up to Vancouver because, with the help of so many pals, I
had secured quite a number of "tributes" to Robin from those who could not
attend. With those in my attache case I felt like a king. Ellen Tallman &
I got to read them out loud at the dinner. Some of them were from people
on this Poetics List, and I will be writing to you privately, each of you,
to thank you at length, but for now let me close by thanking you all in
toto-Giorgio Agamben, Don Allen, Bruce Andrews, James Broughton, Cid
Corman, Robert Creeley, Samuel R. Delany, Allen Ginsberg, Robert Gluck,
Barbara Guest, Thom Gunn, Lyn Hejinian, Jess, Robert Kelly, Gerrit Lansing,
Denise Levertov, Jackson Mac Low, Bob Perelman, Avital Ronell, Claude
Royet-Journoud, Ron Silliman and I'm leaving 1 or 2 out. But thanks to you
all!
And then to come back home and realize that Warren Sonbert was dying just
when DB and I were getting onto the plane.
All right! That's enough from me. P.S., to Maria, Dodie is still going to
mail you her version of events, BlaserFest Back Channel. You too Rae.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 09:43:54 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: More on the Blaser Do
Further high points of the Blaser conference for me included Kevin
himself (too modest, I guess, to mention his own performance) with his
darkly humourous account of the inescapable brutalities of eros in the
Blaser/Duncan/Spicer circles, Peter Quartermain's marvelous discussion
of laughter generally and specifically in Robin's poems, George
Stanley's poetic response to the eros panel, Peter Middleton's
wonderful invocation of Winie the Pooh in his discussion of
performance, Steve Dickison's discussion of various musics (Feldman,
Nono, etc.) contemporary with Robin's writing employing parallel
compositional principles, and the conversation provoked by the last
panel between Don Byrd, Charlie Altieri, and Robin about questions of
agency, form, and structure. Even in sketching out this little
recollection, I'm leaving out so much that I enjoyed and was provoked
by. Kevin pretty well covered the poetry (and music) part of things,
although let me just mention here the readings by Norma Cole (remember
her "catastrophes"?) and Michelle Leggott. Not to mention Fred Wah and
George Bowering. Wow. I could just go on and on. I'm still buzzing.
Robert Hullot-Kentor's presentation on the impossibility of recovering
a public world when the world is determined by the Market was certainly
provocative and interesting, though I did feel we may have recovered a
little corner of it, or at least temporarily occupied it. (It was toward
the back of that big open market where a group of us had lunch.)
The fact that this moment was made possible by and pitched its tent in
the middle of Robin's poetics was itself a testament to the continuing
power of the image to move us to marvels. It may not have been the
Pyramids or Chartres Cathedral, but, man, we were, as they (used to)
say, groovin'.
Best,
Mike
mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 09:52:16 -0400
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Comments: RFC822 error: <W> SUBJECT field duplicated. Last occurrence was
retained.
From: Charles Bernstein <BERNSTEI@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Organization: University at Buffalo
Subject: Warren Sonbert
* * *
Independent filmmaker Warren Sonbert, 47, died May 31 at his home in San
Francisco, of complications from AIDS. His work is of particular interest
to poets, and not just because he counted many poets and writers,
especially in New York and San Francisco, among his friends.
Warren's career as a filmmaker began in the mid-60s while he was still at
NYU film school. Although based in San Francisco since the early 1970s, he
spent much time in New York and traveled frequently throughout North
America and Europe, making nearly 200 personal appearances at one-person
shows of his work. Passionate interest in film, opera, classical music,
other performing and visual arts, and travel is reflected in his films,
which document a life totally engaged in art and in the daily experience
that provides the artist's material.
The titles of his later films reveal a poet's concern with ironies and
valences of received phrase--Carriage Trade, Rude Awakening, Divided
Loyalties, Noblesse Oblige, A Woman's Touch, The Cup and the Lip, Honor and
Obey, Friendly Witness, Short Fuse--just as his earlier titles conjure up
the mid-60s New York underground where he came on the scene--Amphetamine,
Where Did Our Love Go?, Hall of Mirrors, Truth Serum, The Bad and the
Beautiful, Holiday--not to mention his lifelong fascination with Hollywood
and the narrative film.
Warren's own work is non-narrative, not following characters through a
foregrounded plotline but, rather, has been called collisional montage.
"Critics have tried to pin down Sonbert's cinema with catchy formulations .
. . . His works are not really diary films, since their carefully shaped
contours are determined more by aesthetic insight than daily experience,
and to compare them with 'explosions in a postcard factory' is to
acknowledge their boisterous variety while missing their ecstatic
precision," wrote Christian Science Monitor review David Sterritt.
Of his own work, Warren said, "I think the films I make are, hopefully, a
series of arguments, with each image, shot, a statement to be read and
digested in turn," ("Film Syntax," a transcript of a talk that is at once
an intensely close reading of several shot sequences and a primer on the
art of film, published in Hills, 1980, republished by So. Illinois
University Press in Hills/Talks, ed. Bob Perelman).
Asked about discontinuity by David Simpson in a mid-80s interview, Warren
said, "For me, one of the aspects of producing works, or art, let's say, is
that there's definitely an element of disturbance, or astounding--sort of
like some kind of conjuring trick. And one thing that's always attracted me
about film, as opposed to photography or painting, is the ability to do
that by removing an image and replacing it with another. And it's both an
aesthetic and moral, ethical choice to do that. . . . The works that most
astound and influence me are the ones that I can't, as you say, predict. .
. ." Anyone pondering the affinity between Warren and poets could start
right there.
Although film was his primary medium, Warren was just as serious and
meticulous about his writing. His music, opera, book, and film
reviews--sometimes written under the Scotty Ferguson byline (protagonist of
Hitchcock's Vertigo, perhaps Warren's favorite narrative film) appeared for
years in weekly gay publications in San Francisco. Not a musician himself,
he was intensely involved in the classical and operatic repertoire.
Warren made 18 films, widely exhibited at arts, educational, and cultural
institutions in the United States and Europe, as well as at the world's
major film festivals. He was honored by numerous retrospectives, by six
Cineprobes at the Museum of Modern Art and six Biennals at the Whitney
Museum of American Art. His films are in the collections of more than a
dozen prominent archives and universities. He also taught filmmaking at the
San Francisco Art Institute, the School of the Art Institute of Chicago,
and Bard College, and gave graduate seminars at a dozen other institutions.
Warren is survived by his companion, Ascension Serrano, of San Francisco;
his father, Jack Sonbert, of San Diego; and two brothers. For over 15 years
he lived with graphic designer and art historian Ray Larsen, who died in
1992.
The San Francisco Cinematheque is presenting a tribute to Sonbert,
including an exhibition of three of his early films, 7:30 p.m., Thursday,
June 22 at the Media Screening Room, Center for the Arts, Yerba Buena
Gardens. Admission, $6.00.
A memorial is planned for July at the San Francisco Zen Center Green Gulch
Farm in Marin. Date to be announced.
The Museum of Modern Art Department of Film in New York City is hosting an
informal memorial gathering Wednesday evening, June 28, in the upstairs
screening room. Call Department of Film for details.
--Alan Bernheimer
abernhei@hooked.net
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 10:48:54 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Bernstein <BERNSTEI@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Organization: University at Buffalo
Subject: note: previous Sonbert post is by Alan Bernheimer
The previous message on Warren Sonbert is by Alan Bernheimer. The forwarded
header making that clear was automatically removed in transmission. Alan
asked me to pass on his obituary for Warren to our list.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 10:12:40 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Report on Blaser Conference
>
> My Report-Kevin Killian
>
> Brief & sketchy. Okay, well the "hi pts" for me were as follows:
>
>
wowie zowie baby yr so fine --thanks for the exhaustive and jealousy-inducing
rundown, kevin. i've enjoyed george b's and pierre j's one-liners and lindz's
regional radar (i agree, lindz, that regionalism is a huge under-theorized area
--my big discovery when i took this job at MN and was utterly unprepared for the
profound culture shock that plunged me into a spectacular 2-year depression).
jeez, why'd i put papergrading before blaser? sorry robin. when's the next
blaserfest?--maria
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 16:29:57 BST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "I.LIGHTMAN" <I.Lightman@UEA.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: hole
But in Hole's performances, the band is really tight and together, which
is a mark of a band, I mean it's not just the number of chords you
compose with, or how you arrange them, it's getting four musicians to
play as a synergy and in time, this is very *rare*, and also only partly
true of the two guys in Kurt Cobain's backing band. Tom, I say let the
elegies to Kurt flow; he was a better artist than you or I or 90% of
this list's members will ever be, musically anyway. And the arrangements
in Abba's songs were amazing; technically they were much more ambitious
and experimental with melody and harmony than many pop bands; do their
critics on this list mean that Abba were "bad" because they were kitsch
(though they still tug mine and many a queer person's heartstrings) or
silly Swedes or what; Elvis Costello has admitted to getting most of
his early musical ideas from Abba, the whole of Oliver's Army for
example; his lyrics may not seem sentimental (macho, misogynist, crap,
overblown, yes), and Abba's seem sentimental; but Abba are better.
Ira
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 10:49:48 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Watts <cwatts@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: sensitive
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.950607203713.5260B-100000@interchg.ubc.ca> from
"Lindz Williamson" at Jun 7, 95 09:02:42 pm
Thanks, Lindz, for yr response to my somewhat heated riposte to the
remark that "Toronto bashing was in the air." I also think that place
is an important non-dismissible ground for writing, and I hear what
you say about the evident regionalism of thought in Canada. But the
poetics that formed the issues of concern in the Recovery of the
Public World conference have less to do with regionalism or with the
notion of place as represented in much criticism and writing of the
sixties, seventies, eighties than with resistance to a
monocultural hegemony which would override particulars and differences
of place, culture, sexual, social, ideological diversity; so that, in
this sense, your remarks on region are very welcome, since they do
speak of a particularity that living in the west or in Ontario or
wherever imparts to a writer's work caught, as it is, within a larger
issue of contending with that monocultural drive which would flatten
or uproot or nomadize the diversities.
Charles
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 18:02:55 EDT
Reply-To: beard@metdp1.met.co.nz
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: beard@MET.CO.NZ
Subject: Who killed Laura Ranger?
The big news in New Zealand poetry recently has been Laura Ranger - a ten-year
old Wellingtonian whose first book, `Laura's Poems', was the best selling NZ
book for quite some time. Not just best-selling book of poetry, but beating
novels and non-fiction, and probably selling more than all other NZ poets put
together for several years.
Her work shows definite talent, and many of the poems are enjoyable in their
own right, but it says something about the audience for poetry when it takes
non-textual factors like age to make a poet a best-seller. Of course,
everyone's asking `Can she live up to our expectations, or will the media hype
kill her talent?' - many other `child prodigies' have been stifled by this sort
of pressure.
Partly in response to this, also mulling over in my head Eco's `Interpretation
and Overinterpretation' re Rorty's idea of `using' a text (is there a line
between use and abuse?), also discovering how close the vocabulary of the
senses is to erotic language (or perhaps that sexuality is essentially
innocent?), and getting in a few playful digs at PoMo tropes - here are three
found poems in possibly dubious taste. The numbers in the left margin are page
references to the original lines in `Laura's Poems'.
The Postmodern Laura
43 i sat on th ledge &
25 blue irises
28 appear
36 in th heart
42 they crawl on yr eyes
39 the wind
57 is begging to get thru
41 the wind is writing
55 but i cannot tell
20 i can't tell where it is
56 or how to speak th language
55 i have a secret word
43 it was knowledge
Laura and Sappho
18 She's got extremely long legs,
34 worn out stockings,
42 with huge green eyes.
35 she arrives home sighing,
19 as soft as a cat.
23 In my room
23 I play with Eloise.
40 Her hair curls,
39 the clouds curl and turn,
40 she reaches out to touch me.
45 I go mining for gold.
Who killed Laura Ranger?
12 My skin is as smooth
37 as a burnt piece of coal.
57 The crescent moon
24 is as white as a hospital room.
15 He knows I am writing a poem now,
61 his ears soar up and down.
54 Outside, everywhere,
45 the dollars flutter to the ground.
60 This is a smelly verse --
57 it gets dark,
48 the colour is lost.
39 I grow as cold as stone.
______________________________________________________________________________
I/am a background/process, shrunk to an icon. | Tom Beard
I am/a dark place. | beard@metdp1.met.co.nz
I am less/than the sum of my parts... | Auckland, New Zealand
I am necessary/but not sufficient, | http://metcon.met.co.nz/
and I shall teach the stars to fall | nwfc/beard/www/hallway.html
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 15:52:55 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jordan Davis." <Jordan70@AOL.COM>
Subject: palinode on a nightingale
Ed et al
So what will happen if we talk about beauty? Hasn't there been a shift in
what poets consider necessary for a poem, away from beauty and towards heat
death? Might be nicer to talk about subject/verb agreement. What do people
wish would happen on this list?
Speculating,
Pinky
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 15:36:31 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: More on the Blaser Do
In message <199506081343.JAA06727@blues.epas.utoronto.ca> UB Poetics discussion
group writes:
> Further high points of the Blaser conference for me included Kevin
> himself (too modest, I guess, to mention his own performance) with his
> darkly humourous account of the inescapable brutalities of eros in the
> Blaser/Duncan/Spicer circles, Peter Quartermain's marvelous discussion
> of laughter generally and specifically in Robin's poems, George
> Stanley's poetic response to the eros panel, Peter Middleton's
> wonderful invocation of Winie the Pooh in his discussion of
> performance, Steve Dickison's discussion of various musics (Feldman,
> Nono, etc.) contemporary with Robin's writing employing parallel
> compositional principles, and the conversation provoked by the last
> panel between Don Byrd, Charlie Altieri, and Robin about questions of
> agency, form, and structure. Even in sketching out this little
> recollection, I'm leaving out so much that I enjoyed and was provoked
> by. Kevin pretty well covered the poetry (and music) part of things,
> although let me just mention here the readings by Norma Cole (remember
> her "catastrophes"?) and Michelle Leggott. Not to mention Fred Wah and
> George Bowering. Wow. I could just go on and on. I'm still buzzing.
>
> Robert Hullot-Kentor's presentation on the impossibility of recovering
> a public world when the world is determined by the Market was certainly
> provocative and interesting, though I did feel we may have recovered a
> little corner of it, or at least temporarily occupied it. (It was toward
> the back of that big open market where a group of us had lunch.)
> The fact that this moment was made possible by and pitched its tent in
> the middle of Robin's poetics was itself a testament to the continuing
> power of the image to move us to marvels. It may not have been the
> Pyramids or Chartres Cathedral, but, man, we were, as they (used to)
> say, groovin'.
>
> Best,
> Mike
> mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca
thanks to you too, mike, i'm getting a contact high just from reading all these
groovy names and lists and topics and vibes. --md
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 22:49:48 +0000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: cris cheek <cris@SLANG.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: opportunity knocks
>Hey people,
>
>I'm putting together a reading series for the fall and winter of next year,
>for Small Press Traffic. It is to be an experimental series with a heavy
>multi-cultural emphasis--and it is to highlight 5 small presses (one press
>per evening, two readers published by that press), to promote those
>presses. Included in the project will be a newsletter with work by the
>readers, as well as reviews of various books by the presses. There is some
>money for this, but I'm not sure exactly how much. All the readers will be
>paid. I may do more than 5 evenings.
>
>So, anybody interested in this? Anybody published by a small press
>planning to be in the Bay Area in the fall or winter? I'd like to put a
>tentative list together by the end of this month.
>
>Thanks,
>Dodie Bellamy
>
>And, Maria D.--other than the fact that Susan Howe's reading was
>mouth-gapingly incredible, anything else interesting I'd have to say about
>Blaserfest would be strictly backchannel, i.e., Gossipfest. <grin>
Hi Dodie, you mean this year or next year? I'm serious. You talking '96
here or ? Cause whether it would interest you or not - and you nothing
about my stuff I'm going to be over in fall '96 at conference in New
Hampshire and plan doing events with Allen Fisher and Miles Champion and
Sianed Jones under the Sound & Language curtain.
love and love
cris
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 22:50:01 +0000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: cris cheek <cris@SLANG.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: tendermentality
It's hard to believe - coming back here to talk of beards and pipes and
whether drains are slacks or who's drugs were those notes. If PJ Monk or
Sun Fitgerald discipline our hearts the most. Which art is higher or where
lower orders work two chords who cares.
Thanks to Alan Sondheim and Bob Drake for touching ground.
Thanks also for the tender posts on Warren - moved
cris
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 18:01:35 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rae Armantrout <RaeA100900@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: opportunity knocks
Dear Dodie,
Fanny and I were talking about trying to get a reading in the Bay Area.
Well, actually, Fanny wanted to read at Cal and I 've been trying to
investigate that remote possibility, but it's just too daunting. Maybe we
could read in your series. We've both been published by Sun And Moon - though
in her case it was fiction not poetry. I might try to scam some sort of
reading in Vancouver too. I've never been there (and I'm still awaiting the
real conference gossip).
Rae
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 15:53:30 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Watts <cwatts@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Report on Blaser Conference
In-Reply-To: <v01510101abfbca4d2a41@[140.174.229.197]> from "Kevin Killian" at
Jun 7, 95 11:36:41 pm
Thank you, Kevin (I still feel a bit as if I'm onstage making another
announcement, but this one is heart felt) for this report, for your
superb perceptions of events at the conference & readings. I had
thought to add, as I was reading, that you had made a great
contribution by seeking out so many letters and kudos from friends of
Robin's, and now you've made even that easier by remembering them
yourself. But you neglected to mention the enormous gifts you gave the
conference in the form of your own reading, among the most moving I
heard, and your brilliant paper on the enmitous wars of the Spicerites and
Duncanians, with Robin the triage man getting hit more often than not
himself (everything Kevin said is true, Robin told me). My absolute
gratitude to you, you wonderful, generous man, you maker. (I mentioned
to Daphne Marlatt, that at one point I'd thought to subtitle the
conference "A conference of the birds," as in the medieval Arab and
European tales of which Chaucer's "Parlement of Foules" is a late
example. Your paper gave that early thought, considered and then
dropped, new meaning!
Love,
Charles
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 21:24:46 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Loss Glazier <lolpoet@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Poetics Backfiles
Poetics list backfiles have been updated in the EPC for the months of
April and May, 1995. The search feature will be updated momentarily.
Best wishes,
Loss
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 21:56:20 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Loss Glazier <lolpoet@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: EPC Indexes - wow
Just finished generating the index for the entire EPC (Poetics Archive
index also done) and how's this the _dictionary_ for the EPC contains
over 1 million words (1,090,000 plus). Our collective vocabulary
exceeds the average desk dictionary by FIVE times. Interesting, no?
(Please bear with me, I'm spending my evening generating EPC indexes
so maybe I'm in a haze here but if you throw out those scientific
terms in most dictionaries, we have really collectively used a lot of
unique words!)
Well, not meant for response really but just interesting, with
my hands deep into the gears of the machine, how much has been
generated!
Loss
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 20:24:09 CST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Alexander <mcba@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: palinode on a nightingale
Jorday Davis writes,
"So what will happen if we talk about beauty? Hasn't there been a shift in
what poets consider necessary for a poem, away from beauty and towards heat
death? Might be nicer to talk about subject/verb agreement. What do people
wish would happen on this list?"
What is "heat death?"
Ah, beauty . . .
Whoso list to hunt? I know where is an hind.
charles
charles alexander
chax press
minnesota center for book arts
phone & fax: 612-721-6063
e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 22:36:37 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Diane Marie Ward <dward@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Music, culture & Sondheim
Irony, Coincidence, or Psychic Powers?
As I sauntered over to my computer with blackberry tea in hand, I
thought it might be wise to put in a cassette tape to listen to as I catch
up on 4 days worth of email. I had 2 requirements: 1.) the music must
provide a stress release & 2.) have an enigmatic quality - I did not want
to be force-fed emotions or (God forbid) sentimental moanings from
mainstream radio. My right hand reached for Beethoven's Heroica, but my
left grabbed Hole's cassette. It was amusing that as I began to read Alan
Sondheim's defense of Hole, she began to below through my speakers "I'm
Miss World..." (Definitely a scene suitable for a Dickens novel!) If I
may note, last week Martha Stewart was the Goddess of the Week and now
Courtney Love is : the ultimate gulf between these 2 women is undeniable,
but the fact that both are of interest to poets rests in the fact (I
believe, and please pardon me if this has been written prior) that each
represents an extreme in contemporary culture, and the EXTREME is a
function of the REAL.
If I may offer 2 quotes in support of Sondheim from D.H. Lawrence's Studies
in Classic American Literature:
"You can idealize or intellectualize. Or, on the contrary, you can let
the dark soul in you see for itself. An artist usually intellectualizes
on top, and his dark under-consciousness goes on contradicting him beneath."
"Everything has its hour of ridicule - everything."
---------------------------------------------------
--possessor of many Martha Stewart gardening books & cooking videos
Diane Marie Ursula Ward
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 15:02:19 GMT+1300
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Wystan Curnow <w.curnow@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland
Subject: Re: Who killed Laura Ranger?
Comments: To: beard@MET.CO.NZ
Dear Tom,
Shouldn't we tell them the real NEWS flash, that Michele
Leggott arrived home from Vancouver and the Blaser fest where she read from
DIA yesterday to learn on the TV news that night that that collection had
won her the National Book Award for Poetry? Michele, as well as Bob Creeley
and myself, gave presentations at the STASIS Conference in Auckland this
morning, and it seemed her feet were still some distance from the ground.
Wystan
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 20:08:48 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steve Carll <sjcarll@SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: discipline
Reginald Johanson posts:
>On June 6, George Bowering said that the open mike scene was usually
>dissapointing. And I would say yes it is--but disappointing to whom,
>and why? Disappointing very often to me, but is that strictly a
>matter of bruised ego that then gets intellectualized into a
>statement like "they wouldn't know a good poem if one slapped them in
>the face"? I think there may be something of this in my
>disappointment. And, as someone else has mentioned here (sorry name
>escapes me) the young poet whose stuff is rejected by the lit.
>establishment university people says the same thing and goes to the
>open mike night where they *really* appreciate *real* poetry etc. So
>maybe, if myself and others are on the margins between these two (and
>other) traditions that's actually a rather dynamic place to be,
>drawing (hopefully) on the best of all of it.
I get frustrated with the open mic poetry scene in S.F.--it's
anti-intellectual, anti-"craft", and generally run like a rock-n-roll scene;
there are "stars" whose big egos are indulged, which discourages them from
veering outside of certain narrow conceptualizations of "life". It's poetry
as psychotherapy--and yet there *is* that energy and enthusiasm. If it can
only be connected to the deeper places in the soul--and it can and
occasionally is...
Steve
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 19:21:31 -0600
Reply-To: quarterm@unixg.ubc.ca
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: peter quartermain <quarterm@UNIXG.UBC.CA>
Subject: Summer break and a book
Let this lurker violate (!) his lurkerdom and announce
that I'm off to England (to work, of course!), return 15 July,
leaving the list for the duration. I'll catch up on my delinquent
mail back channel before I leave.
and add this, first: on 11 May Charles Bernstein said "some
people on this list . . . have books out in the past few years
but never announced them." Let me mention Richard Caddel's editing
of _SHARP STUDY AND LONG TOIL: BASIL BUNTING SPECIAL ISSUE_ of the
Durham University Journal, March 1 1995, available for ten pounds
from Basil Bunting Poetry Centre, Durham Univesity Library, Palace
Green, Durham DH1 3RN -- add about a pound for postage. This really
good collection includes work by Basil Bunting, Carl Rakosi, Eric
Mottram, Tony Lopez, Roy Fisher, Catherine Walsh, Susan Howe, Robert
Creeley, George Evans; and prose by Donald Wesling, Peter Quartermain,
John Seed, Harry Gilonis, Joseph Vicary, Peter Robinson, Rebecca
Smalley, Mary de Rachewiltz, Dennis Goacher, Stephen Rodefer and
Charles Tomlinson, plus some good book reviews by such as Wendy Mulford,
Tony Baker, Ken Edwards, and others. Well worth the small money (about
$21.00 or so USA).
Back in five weeks!
__________________________________________________________________________
Peter Quartermain
128 East 23rd Avenue voice and fax (604) 876 8061
Vancouver
B.C. e-mail: quarterm@unixg.ubc.ca
Canada V5V 1X2
__________________________________________________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 21:42:18 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steve Carll <sjcarll@SLIP.NET>
Subject: poetry 'n roll
Hi all--
Of course, 90% of the people making rock 'n' roll are simply doing it for
the ego boost, just like 90% of the people writing poetry probably are. But
there are some (like Cobain, Love, some of the open-mic crowd, and of course
most of you folks!) who really are tapping a source way deeper than the lack
of whatever-it-is-we-usually-look-for-in-art would lead us to believe. KC's
*articulation* of self-hatred, insecurity, etc. is actually profoundly
moving in much the same way, to me, that Monk's dislocations of rhythm and
melody are. To say this is not to idolize self-destruction--hell, I wish
he'd had a way of stepping out of that space that he mapped so well for
us--only to acknowledge how intense an experience he was able to
communicate. The first influences on my poetry also were musical: Lennon,
Morrison, Dylan, etc. Following is one of a series of poems I've been
working on that take the lyrics to a pop song and reconfigure them, creating
a response-poem out of a popsong vocabulary (which of course deals with
music and musicality in a completely different way, but the fact that the
music *moves* the words is central to both, I think...)
Hey, Your Highness' Complaint
for Kurt Cobain
A new angel's debt to breath drawn down into pisces:
Hey, you orchids left me no advice box inside forever yet;
I just throw back your priceless complaint, I got one broken wait
shaped in black magnet, wish shaped of heart-like pit.
A locked hymen (your new I) could cut forever umbilical meat.
Baby's been in your trap, a she-box to turn your weeks to noose.
When black for priceless tar--hey, can I eat right advice forever?
I've been new, myself, so weak in complaint I'm eating your debt.
I've got your eyes' wait on when I cancer your advice,
am hair and heart, I've got priceless debt, I've a climb,
wait...forgive...
Steve
p.s. right on Ira Lightman!
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 21:42:22 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steve Carll <sjcarll@SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: a=a is what does bad poetry do
Jordan Davis asks:
>Question for the group--what harm does bad poetry do?
>
>Love,
>Jordan
None--that's why it's bad. Now that's a kind of flip, overly reductive way
of saying what I really want to say, which is, first of all, that there
really isn't any "bad" poetry except as a subjective category--there's only
stuff that doesn't work for me *as poetry*. As to harm, I've been thinking
a lot lately about the notion that it's fear of death that keeps us from
really living, and therefore to decide to live is to accept (and hence risk)
harm and death; similarly, to decide to attempt to think outside the models
provided and encouraged by the culture is to risk harm to one's sanity. I
find that poetry which works for me often risks these kinds of harm; poetry
which doesn't, doesn't.
Steve
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 22:14:10 -0700
Reply-To: Eric Michael Vacin <emvacin@cats.ucsc.edu>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Eric Michael Vacin <emvacin@CATS.UCSC.EDU>
Subject: reading in Santa Cruz
If anyone is going to be in Santa Cruz tomorrow (June 9) Robert Gluck
and Earl Jackson will be reading at the Casa Nova Cafe on Pacific at 6 p.m.
The reading will celebrate the first issue of Red Wheelbarrow, a student
run publication at UC Santa Cruz.
E.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 00:21:04 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: braman sandra <s-braman@UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: EPC Indexes - wow
In-Reply-To: <199506090156.VAA14402@orichalc.acsu.buffalo.edu> from "Loss
Glazier" at Jun 8, 95 09:56:20 pm
Re the vocabulary of the EPC index, per Loss Glazier's comment -- the
average high school graduate has a vocabulary of only about 10,000 words
-- we aim only to get them up to about 40,000 by the time they graduate
college. Average computer vocabulary much higher. Shakespeare the
writer, of course, who used the largest percentage of the 2-1/2 million
words in English....
EPC is doing well! Sandra Braman
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 22:41:50 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Marjorie Perloff <perloff@LELAND.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 7 Jun 1995 to 8 Jun 1995
In-Reply-To: <199506090401.VAA25387@leland.Stanford.EDU>
We all owe Kevin an enormous debt for his wonderful account of the
conference.!! Mike too.
Well, those of us who couldn't come are green with envy! It's wonderful
to know such festivals still occur!
Kevin: I hope you'll write it up and send to a "public" place. The
Chronicle of Higher Education?? The NY Times? The Village Voice? The
word needs to get out!
Thanks!
Marjorie Perloff
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 09:43:34 GMT0BST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Peter Larkin <LYAAZ@LIBRIS.LIB.WARWICK.AC.UK>
Organization: UNIVERSITY OF WARWICK LIBRARY
Subject: New Publication
Prest Roots Press has recently published a new title by Drew Milne
(editor of the poetry magazine "Parataxis"). The collection called
"Carte Blanche" is printed letterpress (Dante Monotype),
thread-sewn with printed card covers, 22pp. ISBN 1 871237 14 9. It can
be ordered from Paul Green, Spectacular Diseases, 83B London Road,
Peterborough, Cambridgeshire PE2 9BS UK at $14 plus postage. Here is
a sample from p.19:
Wild rose nor old man's
beard, rambling on, nor
may, blackthorn blossom
to quickset hedge, clipped
so low in bonds of peat,
well moulding, for you
to cease to be, o worms
for her proud to tread on.
Take a chopin of soup,
a scone a day, whiles
fasting, whiles getting
meat, at a squeeze, so
to drops, so democrat
bloody, factions cut to
your every throat, but
here you are no relief.
("a chopin of soup" ((not langpo whimsy)) = a Scots half-pint)
Peter Larkin
Philosophy & Literature Librarian
University of Warwick Library,
Coventry CV4 7AL UK
Tel:01203 524475
Fax:01203 524211
Email: Lyaaz@Libris.Lib.Warwick.ac.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 07:16:50 -0400
Reply-To: Robert Drake <au462@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Robert Drake <au462@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Report on Blaser Conference
>Thank you, Kevin (I still feel a bit as if I'm onstage making another
>announcement, but this one is heart felt) for this report, for your
>superb perceptions of events at the conference & readings. I had
>thought to add, as I was reading, that you had made a great
>contribution by seeking out so many letters and kudos from friends of
>Robin's, and now you've made even that easier by remembering them
>yourself. But you neglected to mention the enormous gifts you gave the
>conference in the form of your own reading, among the most moving I
>heard, and your brilliant paper on the enmitous wars of the Spicerites and
>Duncanians..
worth mentioning, fr those of us who missed both, kevin's interview w/
david bromige which appeared in Arshile #3 (PO Box 3749, Los Angeles
CA 90078; $10.50), which is subtitled "war in heaven: jack spicer vs.
robert duncan 1962-64."
lbd
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 08:00:58 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: Re: palinode on a nightingale
In-Reply-To: <950608155255_66358547@aol.com> from "Jordan Davis." at Jun 8,
95 03:52:55 pm
Who says heat death can't be beautiful?
Mike
mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 08:39:31 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 7 Jun 1995 to 8 Jun 1995
>
> Well, those of us who couldn't come are green with envy! It's wonderful
> to know such festivals still occur!
>
> Kevin: I hope you'll write it up and send to a "public" place. The
> Chronicle of Higher Education?? The NY Times? The Village Voice? The
> word needs to get out!
>
> Thanks!
> Marjorie Perloff
i agree. plus, kevin, what a great epilogue some of this might make for your bio
of spicer. anyone else with rich descriptions? this ongoing encomium is great!
esp for creating literary history via legend --one such legend is being
constructed right now --and i don't mean that cynically but with excitement
--the Blaserfest as historical marker of convergence of canada/us, language
poetry/spicer-kreis, gay aesthetics/mainstream avant-garde, etc. md.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 09:44:56 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jim Pangborn <V072GDXG@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Organization: University at Buffalo
Subject: Re: palinode on a nightingale
Charles Alexander asks
>What is "heat death?"
It's what's supposed to happen to our universe at the end of
time: total entropy, all energy differences evened-out, nothing left to
happen. An interesting conjecture, often (mis)taken for an inevitability
by science buffs. It stands thus, also, for a postmodernist tendency
to abandon hope of progress, to theorize exhaustion, etc. An ultimate
pessimism: maybe an excuse, for some, for cynicism. The whimper at the
other end of things from the big bang.
As for
>Ah, beauty . . .
>
> Whoso list to hunt? I know where is an hind.
>
let's go, hey wait, I'll grab my camera. But doesn't that beast hide in
a most arduous terrain? I hear it immediately decomposes when you shoot it.
--JimP
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 11:17:04 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: palinode on a nightingale
Jordan,
What do you mean by "heat death"? Is it a form of desire?
Burt
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 12:20:09 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jordan Davis." <Jordan70@AOL.COM>
Subject: Hilda Conklin (Laura Ranger)
Hi
I'd like publication/ordering info for "Laura's Poems."
Readers of this list may know the book "Poems of a Little Girl" by Hilda
Conklin (or Conkling--book's elsewhere). It was a best seller here earlier in
the century. Conklin's poems were collected by her mother (an english
professor at Smith, I think) and published by a major house (Macmillan, I
think) around the time she was ten. She has a clear, startled and excited
style, especially in the poems her mother transcribed when she was five.
Also worth examining are David Shapiro's poems in _January_ and _Poems from
Deal_, written and published mainly before the author's twentieth birthday.
For that matter, David's son Daniel's poem "The Boss Poem" in _After a Lost
Original_ bears reading and re-reading.
Love,
Jordan
P.S. What do you wish would happen here?
(Shout out to Jim Pangborn for clarifying "heat death")
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 12:27:16 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Edward Foster <EFOSTER@VAXC.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: palinode on a nightingale
oh, jordan, get off it. where, as rilke spent his life saying, does beauty begin?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 11:31:43 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: braman sandra <s-braman@UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: desire
isn't everything desire..... SBraman
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 13:07:44 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@ALBNYVMS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: palinode on a nightingale
This message by ED FOSTER had no message attached to it---
This has been happening alot lately---
I wonder why....
Now that i got your attention
I should probably tell you
that I've been getting alot of things in the mail lately--
So--here's a plug--
AVEC and WITZ---theough there's been a "divorce" between these
two venues, there's much interesting--Steven Farmer, Joe Ross--
etc...
Then there's PHOEBE--edited by Jean Donnelley (who appears in new
Sulfur too) which has incredible pieces by Jennifer Moxley, Heather Fuller
and Leslie Scalapino and others....
Then there's Jennifer Moxley's own THE IMPERCIPIENT--which has
work by Joe Ross again (much more up my alley than AN AMERICAN VOYAGE)
and Kevin Davies and others--seems like there's a new "political
lyric" kinda of voice...
I also got the Barret Watten (Free Barry not JAWS!) of AERIAL/EDGE--
and it featurs some interesting writing as well. Alan Davies provides
an interesting perspective which makes the book less of a mutual
admiration society roast than it might otherwise be--the collaboration
poem between Barret and Carla Harryman is interesting. Silliman is
thoughtful...Scalapino again....I have not read the whole thing yet.
I also got COMPOUND EYE today---
In any event--
it's so much more exciting than hearing Duncan ramble on and on about
"CHarles Olson, he was a Big Man--A real big man"--Ho hum so was
davey crocket--in the NEw SULFUR--I say this not out of animosity
towards Duncan but to once again bring up the idea of "career trajectory"
and how this plays into the quality of the work---Dear Clayton, etc.,
not everything Duncan did was tinged with the gold of the prophets or
whatever----
So---FOR THOSE WHO DIDN'T GET TO GO TO VANCOUVER--
let's have our own little Duncan-Spicer battle--
I'll side with Spicer 9it will be like baseball...I usually
got picked last and once when i was a third baseman I got bored
and when the bat hit the ball I ran home---I don't think I've
played baseball since I'm 6--though that song "Boys Of Summer"
is "nice")----Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 10:23:35 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: Blaserfest Back Channel
Here's one tidbit I left out of my backchannel report on BlaserFest that I
thought I would share with all you front-channel guys.
I talked with a couple of poets who said friends of theirs were giving out
conference fashion awards. One of them said that his group decided that
the best dressed were going to get Blaser Awards, and the worst dressed
were going to get Spicer Awards. I was then, of course, quickly
complimented on my conference wardrobe......but I was a bit dubious.
Dodie Bellamy
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 13:23:24 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@ALBNYVMS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: poetry 'n roll
Oh--I forget to mention--in my list of recent magazines read and rec'd
that there's also the "dreaded" APEX OF THE M #3--just out--It has
great poems by Virginia Hooper and Kristen prevallet--There's also
an article on Blake by Penquin Poet Liz Willis an article for those
interested in the size of Christopher Columbus's "LOG" and yet
another installment in CHRIST ENTERS MANHATTEN or is it CHRIST
NOW FINDS HIMSELF SLEEPLESS IN SEATTLE--I always forget....chris
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 10:29:35 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: Re: opportunity knocks
Sorry, Cris, but it's fall of '95 and winter of '96.
xox,
Dodie
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 10:41:39 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: SPT reading series
Rae,
I have to book many multi-cultural writers to fulfill the grant
application, at least one per reading. I think I could book either you or
Fanny, but I'd have to pair you with a multi-cultural writer published by
Sun And Moon. Any ideas. Fiction is totally fine.
xox,
Dodie
p.s. I feel guilty about the things I said to you about the "crazy" poet
I've been writing to. It turns out, of course, that we've become very
close and he's as normal and I am at least, and that both of us were having
a lot of misunderstandings due to the extravagances of our written
exchanges. I don't like to be spreading rumors about people I care about,
especially when they're based on misunderstanding. I was very frustrated
when I wrote about him to you, and should have kept my tongue/fingers
still.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 16:04:58 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rae Armantrout <RaeA100900@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: opportunity knocks
Dear Listees,
Apparently the message I intended to send to Dodie went into the List.
Sorry. Technology is not my friend.
Rae A
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 16:10:57 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ryan Knighton <knighton@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Blaserfest Back Channel
In-Reply-To: <v01510101abfdc22ef4f2@[140.174.229.214]> from "Kevin Killian" at
Jun 9, 95 10:23:35 am
The best whiff of nostalgia I heard was from George.
Driving to Simon Fraser after the conference finale,he said to
me there were moments during readings and panels that he listened
for Spicer's grunt or guffaw and consequent stomp to the nearest
pub. Or something in that ballpark.
Ryan
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 18:40:09 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: mea culpa listserv
My message to Rae Armantrout was supposed to be personal and not to the
whole listserv. Ooops! Oh my God! I *know* this social embarassment is
my karma for Blaserfest Back Channel. Oh Gods of Propriety and Good Taste
please forgive me for all my sins past and present.
Blushing,
Dodie Bellamy
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 20:52:23 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Pierre Joris <joris@CSC.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: EMF Info (fwd)
& here's a bit more info about EMF. They will also be happy to have
input & queries (many on this list are well versed in word/music
matters & should, if they feel so, make suggestions for the eMUSIC
catalogue)
Pierre
Forwarded message:
> From EMusF@aol.com Fri Jun 9 19:38:13 1995
> From: EMusF@aol.com
> Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 19:34:49 -0400
> Message-Id: <950609193448_67660039@aol.com>
> To: Emfnet@aol.com
> Subject: EMF Info
>
> Dear Colleague, Friend, Listener,
>
> We'd like you to know about Electronic Music Foundation. That's why we've
> sent you an introductory eMUSIC catalog. If you've received duplicate
> mailings, we apologize. We do not want to clutter the wires. Consequently,
> to remain on our mailing list after you've read this letter, please do
> something: buy a disc, become a Charter Subscriber, or say something simple
> like "Please keep me on your list."
>
> Here is some basic information.
>
> EMF was founded in September 1994 as a not-for-profit organization in New
> York State, USA. EMF's trustees are Joel Chadabe, Paul Lansky, and Neil
> Rolnick. Its mission is to disseminate important information and materials
> related to the history and current development of electronic music. As EMF's
> president Joel Chadabe put it, "The development of electronic musical
> instruments through the twentieth century is a fascinating and wonderful
> history that should be documented for now and for the future. Yet the most
> important work of the pioneering composers, engineers, and
> entrepreneurs-including recordings, photographs, and other important
> documents-is often difficult to find."
>
> Our next projects are an electronic music photo archive and an information
> dissemination center.We've begun the process of creating an archive of
> photographs dealing with the history of electronic music. The archive will
> be made available to scholars and the general public in various formats,
> including photographic prints, photo-CDs, and books.
>
> Our information center will publish a newsletter highlighting the
> availability of historically important materials-and informing subscribers as
> to the location and availability of composers' archives, museums and
> collections of historical electronic instruments, and other historical
> materials and electronic music projects around the world.
>
> Through its information center, EMF also plans to sell books and other items,
> organize conferences and concerts, produce historically important compact
> discs and other materials, and provide archival services such as posthumous
> cataloging, evaluation, placement, storage, and/or dissemination of a
> composer's works.
>
> Our international group of Advisors and Charter Subscribers currently
> includes Jon Appleton, Larry Austin, Marc Battier, Gerald Bennett, John
> Bischoff, Jack Body, Jurg Brennwalder, Herbert Brun, Thomas Buckner, Warren
> Burt, Joseph Celli, Chris Chafe, Jacques Chareyron, Hugh Davies, Christopher
> Dobrian, John Duesenberry, John Eaton, Simon Emmerson, Emmanuel Ghent, Robert
> Gluck, Jonathan Harvey, Folkmar Hein, Gottfried Michael Koenig, Francisco
> Kropfl, Paul Lansky, Otto Laske, George Lewis, George Logemann, Peter
> Manning, Max Mathews, Barton & Priscilla McLean, Eduardo Miranda, Gordon
> Monro, Stephen Montague, Dexter Morrill, Larry Moss, Randy Neal, Phill
> Niblock, Pauline Oliveros, Marc Paping, Godfried-Willem Raes, Michel Redolfi,
> Juan I Reyes, Tom Rhea, Alistair Riddell, Jean-Claude Risset, Curtis Roads,
> Neil Rolnick, Carla Scaletti, Wayne Siegel, Bruno Spoerri, Carl Stone, Mark
> Sullivan, Richard Teitelbaum, Diane Thome and Robert Austin, Robert Scott
> Thompson, James Tobias, Kazuo Uehara, Alvise Vidolin, Felix Visser, David
> Williams, Jan Williams, Patte Wood, David Worrall, Scott Wyatt, Iannis
> Xenakis, and David Zicarelli.
>
> We invite you to join us as a Charter Subscriber-to the eMUSIC Inner Circle,
> to our newsletter, indeed to all of our activities-by making a one-time
> tax-deductible contribution to EMF. We suggest $100. We do accept credit
> cards-Mastercard/Visa. If you can't contribute the full amount now, a pledge
> or partial payment will signify your interest.
>
> We'll be grateful for your support. And we'll return it to you manyfold in
> the form of discounts, free discs, or other services. If you're a
> professional, look upon a Charter Subscription as a professional
> subscription. If you're a listener, look upon it as making available a world
> of interesting materials.
>
> Please be in touch with us by phone, fax, letter, or electronic mail. Our
> email address is EMusF@aol.com. We look forward to hearing from you.
>
>
> Julie Panke
> Executive Director
>
> ================================================
> Electronic Music Foundation
> 116 North Lake Avenue
> Albany NY 12206
> USA
> Tel: (518) 434-4110
> Fax: (518) 434-0308
> Email: EMusF@aol.com
>
> ####
>
=======================================================================
Pierre Joris | He who wants to escape the world, translates it.
Dept. of English | --Henri Michaux
SUNY Albany |
Albany NY 12222 | "Herman has taken to writing poetry. You
tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | need not tell anyone, for you know how
email: | such things get around."
joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --Mrs. Melville in a letter to her mother.
=======================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 20:48:51 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Pierre Joris <joris@CSC.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Intro to eMUSIC (fwd)
Thought the annoucement & catalogue below would be of interest to the
inhabitants of this n-space. It truly is a good & useful setup. Enjoy.
Pierre
Forwarded message:
> From EMusF@aol.com Fri Jun 9 19:37:57 1995
> From: EMusF@aol.com
> Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 19:37:26 -0400
> Message-Id: <950609193725_67659896@aol.com>
> To: Emfnet@aol.com
> Subject: Intro to eMUSIC
>
> WELCOME TO eMUSIC!
> =============================== APRIL-MAY 1995
>
> eMUSIC is a new worldwide service that -- for the first time -- gives you
> easy, direct-mail access to any and all compact discs of experimental,
> exceptional, and/or electronic music. Wherever you live, eMUSIC brings you
> CDs that may be hard to find, discs published by small companies or
> independent composers, even recordings you may not have known existed.
>
> If you're a composer, compact discs of your works will be available through
> eMUSIC. If you're a listener, eMUSIC gives you immediate access to some of
> the world's most interesting music. If you're both -- well, better yet!
>
> How does it work? Every month or so we'll send you a brief catalog of
> selected discs available through eMUSIC. You'll find electronic music
> history, unusual sounds, new ways of combining words and music, new
> approaches to improvisation, computer music, interactive music, portraits of
> composers, 20th-century virtuosi...and more! Our goal is to make available
> every disc of experimental, exceptional, and electronic music -- in short,
> eMUSIC.
>
> In this introductory catalog, we're setting the tone (so to speak). You'll
> find compact discs from the United States, Canada, France, Australia,
> Germany, and Switzerland. You'll find two unusual packages representing the
> two first European studios of the 1950s: a definitive collection of Pierre
> Schaeffer's work in musique concrete and a collection of Stockhausen's early
> work in Cologne. And you'll find a special offer.
>
> But if you don't find what you're looking for, just ask for it. For
> information on how to order CDs, read the "How to Order" section that follows
> the listing of discs. We suggest you also read the section called "Join the
> Inner Circle."
>
> =============================== THE DISCS
> PIONEERS: and a special!
> Take 'The Art of the Theremin' free
> with a Charter Subscription!
> ===============================
>
> THE ART OF THE THEREMIN
> First demonstrated in 1920, the Theremin is played by moving one's hands in
> the air. Clara Rockmore is its first virtuoso, accompanied here by Nadia
> Reisenberg, pianist. The package includes an informative booklet. It's all
> beautiful magic.
> => eMUSIC #DE-100 ($15, or free this month with Charter Subscription)
>
> PIERRE SCHAEFFER: MUSICAL WORKS
> The definitive collection, including 'Etude aux Chemins de Fer' ('Railroad
> Study', 1948), the first piece of musique concrete, and 'Symphonie pour un
> Homme Seul' (1950, 'Symphony for One Man Alone'). Four discs and a book of
> essays (in French) and photographs.
> => eMUSIC #IN-106 $49
>
> STOCKHAUSEN: ELEKTRONISHE MUSIK 1952-1960
> Includes 'Etude' (1952), composed at Pierre Schaeffer's studio in Paris,
> 'Studie I' (1953), 'Studie II' (1954), 'Gesang der Junglinge' (1956), and
> 'Kontakte' (1960). Also a book of essays and articles on the music in German
> and English, scores, and photographs.
> => eMUSIC #ST-100 $36
>
> ELECTRO ACOUSTIC MUSIC CLASSICS
> Includes Edgard Varese' 'Poeme Electronique' (1957), first performed at the
> Philips Pavilion at the Brussels World Fair in 1958 in a building designed by
> Iannis Xenakis who was at the time working for Le Corbusier as an architect;
> Iannis Xenakis' 'Mycenae-Alpha' (1978), composed with Xenakis' original UPIC
> System, a graphic input device that let him "draw" sounds; Milton Babbitt's
> 'Philomel' (1963) with sounds of the RCA Mark II Sound Synthesizer and Judith
> Bettina, soprano; and Roger Reynolds' 'Transfigured Wind IV' (1985),
> computer sounds and flutist Harvey Sollberger.
> => eMUSIC #NE-103 $16
>
> ROARATORIO
> One of John Cage's big big big works, composed in 1979, with Cage reading his
> text 'Writing for the Second Time Through Finnegans Wake', Irish musicians
> playing and singing, and all the sounds mentioned in Finnegans Wake as
> assembled by Cage on a 62-track collage tape. Two discs include a
> conversation between Cage and Klaus Schoning (who commissioned the work for
> the WDR in Cologne) and Cage reading his text. Also two booklets with
> essays, conversations, and the text.
> => eMUSIC #MO-108 $26
>
> FORBIDDEN PLANET
> The original 1956 soundtrack to MGM's 'Forbidden Planet' by Louis and Bebe
> Barron. In their words, "We created individual cybernetic circuits for
> particular themes and leit motifs..." One of the first electronic film
> tracks.
> => eMUSIC #GN-100 $15
>
> JAMES TENNEY: SELECTED WORKS 1961-1969
> Tenney began at Bell Labs at the dawn of computer music. He led the way.
> This disc includes 'Collage #1 ("Blue Suede")' (1961), 'Analog #1: Noise
> Study' (1961), and other early pieces.
> => eMUSIC #AR-106 $14
>
> RISSET
> Classics of elegant computer music. Includes 'Inharmonique' (1977), which
> relates sound and harmony; 'Sud' (1985), based on sounds of the sea near
> Marseilles; 'Dialogues' (1975), for flute, clarinet, piano, and percussion
> with taped computer sounds; and 'Mutations' (1969), composed at Bell Labs in
> New Jersey.
> => eMUSIC #IN-103 $16
>
> JOHN CHOWNING
> Breakthrough moments in computer music, including 'Sabelithe' (1966, revised
> 1971), 'Turenas' (1972), 'Stria' (1977), and 'Phone' (1981). Chowning aimed
> at sounds that were special to computers yet expressive and beautiful. In
> 'Stria', for example, the sounds are simply out of this world.
> => eMUSIC #WE-102 $19
>
> MORTON SUBOTNICK: TOUCH
> Subotnick was there to play the first Buchla synthesizer in 1963. In 'Touch'
> (1969), he touches things to control the sound. 'Jacob's Room' (1986), on the
> other hand, is hi-tech drama with Joan La Barbara, soprano. From 'Touch' to
> 'Jacob's Room' is technology time travel.
> => eMUSIC #WE-104 $19
>
> TERRY RILEY: IN C
> A fabulous performance of music that changed the world. It's about patterns,
> shifting tonalities, energy, all around C. 30 musicians playing 30
> instruments plus. 'In C' was originally commissioned in 1964 by the San
> Francisco Tape Music Center.
> => eMusic #NA-120 $16
>
> ===============================
> COMBINING WORDS AND MUSIC:
> in opera, sound poetry, and improvisation
> ===============================
>
> TRANSPARENCE
> Marc Battier, in Paris, transforms -- using Phonogramme, a graphic audio
> program -- a fragment of speech by Henri Chopin, a well-known French pioneer
> of sound poetry. You hear his voice for a few seconds only, but it's under
> everything. As Battier puts it, "The voice of the poet... is reincarnated as
> a new skin, it changes form, it is in mutation, it is re-invented." It also
> produces extraordinary sounds.
> => eMUSIC #UN-100 $16
>
> KURT SCHWITTERS: URSONATE
> 'Ursonate', a verbal sonata, is a legend of sound poetry, finished in 1932.
> Invented words are used as motives, rhythms and themes, and combined in the
> form of a sonata. Eberhard Blum brings more than twenty years of
> performances to this disc.
> => eMUSIC #HA-216 $19
>
> eL/AFICIONADO
> An electronically-accompanied opera by Robert Ashley, in his words "scenes
> from the life of an 'agent'... 'debriefing' to a jury of Interrogators..."
> With Thomas Buckner, Robert Ashley, Jacqueline Humbert, and Sam Ashley, all
> singing and speaking. The textures and electronic orchestrations are, as in
> all of Ashley's music, seductive, beautiful and evocative. Libretto
> included.
> => eMUSIC #LO-101 $16
>
> 73 POEMS
> Joan La Barbara's vocal-electronic settings of Kenneth Goldsmith's
> multi-level, evocative, sometimes lyrical, sometimes funny, 73-part poem.
> It's an exceptional marriage of words and word-sounds as music.
> => eMUSIC #LO-123 $15
>
> MACHINE FOR MAKING SENSE
> Five from Australia. Chris Mann and Amanda Stewart read and sing their
> poetry while Stevie Wishart plays violin and hurdy-gurdy, Jim Denley plays
> winds, and Rik Rue manipulates sounds, and everyone plays with electronics.
> Quite an incredible, rich, complex, and wonderful improvisation.
> => eMUSIC #OO-117 $15
>
> VALIS
> An electronic opera by Tod Machover, commissioned by the Pompidou Center in
> Paris for its 10th anniversary in 1987. It's based on the science fiction
> novel by Philip K. Dick. Many voices sing and speak with keyboard,
> percussion and electronic techniques developed at IRCAM and MIT. Original
> English version. Libretto included.
> => eMUSIC #BR-101 $16
>
> ===============================
> PLAYING TOGETHER: unusual approaches
> to group activity.
> ===============================
>
> THE HUB: COMPUTER NETWORK MUSIC
> Music by John Bischoff, Tim Perkis, Chris Brown, Scot Gresham-Lancaster, Mark
> Trayle, and Phil Stone, all in the San Francisco area. Their "Hub" is a
> central computer which takes what someone plays and interprets it for the
> others so that they're all acting on the same data. It's a network approach
> to group performance.
> => eMUSIC #AR-101 $14
>
> CONCERTO GROSSO
> Richard Teitelbaum composed this -- well, he devised the system that produced
> it -- in 1985. Improvisations by Teitelbaum (keyboard and computer), Anthony
> Braxton (saxophones), and George Lewis (trombone) alternate with
> computer-controlled acoustic grand pianos and synthesizers. Lively and
> musical.
> => eMUSIC #HA-118 $19
>
> NO WORLD (TRIO) IMPROVISATIONS
> Joseph Celli and Jin Hi Kim, with Alvin Curran, Malcolm Goldstein, Shelley
> Hirsch, Adam Plack, and Mor Thiam, come together as a global-village
> improvisation group. There's an Australian didjeridoo, Korean komungo and
> piri, African percussion, oboe, English horn, violin, voice, and electronics,
> and sounds like never before.
> => eMUSIC #OO-102 $15
>
> MOVIN' ON
> Updated jazz. Bruno Spoerri plays saxophones, Synthophone (electronic
> saxophone invented by Martin Hurni in Switzerland), synthesizers, and a
> Macintosh computer. Reto Weber does a lot with percussion. With Albert
> Mengelsdorff, trombonist, and Ernst Reijseger, cellist.
> => eMUSIC #TU-100 $15
>
> THOUSAND YEAR DREAMING
> Parts of it fully scored, parts improvised, Annea Lockwood has assembled Jon
> Gibson, Art Baron, Libby Van Cleve, J.D. Parran, Michael Pugliese, Scott
> Robinson, John Snyder, Charles Wood, and Peter Zummo to play didjeridoo,
> conch shell, trombone, oboe, English horn, clarinet, contrabass clarinet,
> tam-tam, clapping sticks, frame drums, pod rattle, tam-tam, superball,
> waterphone, and stones. The title refers to Australian aboriginals' sense of
> history as dreaming, and the titles of the sections-breathing and dreaming,
> the Chi stirs, floating in mid-air, in full bloom-describe the moods.
> => eMUSIC #WN-109 $15
>
> ===============================
> MUSIC ABOUT SOUNDS: finding and
> making new sounds at home and abroad.
> ===============================
>
> DENIS SMALLEY: IMPACTS INTERIEURS
> For Smalley, "The starting point is always the sound..." 'Valley Flow'
> (1991) is the sound of the Canadian Rockies. And what a stunning sound!
> Also included: 'Piano Nets' (1991), 'Wind Chimes' (1987), 'Clarinet
> Threads' (1985), and 'Darkness After Time's Colours' (1976).
> => eMUSIC #IM-106 $15
>
> MILA'S JOURNEY INSPIRED BY A DREAM
> Eliane Radigue synthesizes atmospheres. Her sounds fill the air, suggesting
> peace, time and transformation. This sound is an environment for Milarepa's
> songs (Milarepa was an 11th-century Tibetan poet who taught through singing),
> sung here by Lama Kunga Rinpoche in Tibetan and recited by Robert Ashley in
> English.
> => eMUSIC #LO-113 $15
>
> HOMEBREW
> Paul Lansky takes banged kitchen objects, traffic noises, fairytales,
> clapping, a shopping mall, and transforms the sounds. It's an homage to his
> family. Can computer music be charming? Yes.
> => eMUSIC #BR-107 $15
>
> ANGELS AND INSECTS
> David Dunn looks to the biosphere: "Beneath the water's surface are a
> variety of plants and small insects... While the sounds above water are
> comfortable and familiar, those occurring under the surface are shocking...
> as if controlled by a mysterious but urgent logic..." They make for
> compelling music.
> => eMUSIC #WN-108 $15
>
> RAINFOREST IMAGES
> Priscilla and Barton McLean went far afield for these sounds, among them
> Peruvian and Australian bird calls, wooden recorders, and didjeridoo, all
> processed electronically in studios in Australia and New York.
> => eMUSIC #CA-104 $15
>
> OCEAN FLOWS
> Rik Rue, Australian sound artist, records sounds and creates soundscapes.
> 'Ocean Flows' is about ocean waves over beaches and rocks. 'Ebbs Tides and
> Flows' uses the sounds of Sydney Harbor. 'Goondiwindi', an Aboriginal word
> meaning "water flowing over rocks," is a water-sound exploration of crevices,
> channels and caves. It's hearing a whole new world in what we think we know.
> => eMUSIC #TP-103 $19
>
> ===============================
> COMPILATIONS: surveys, group portraits,
> overviews, variety.
> ===============================
>
> THE VIRTUOSO IN THE COMPUTER AGE (II)
> Music from five US studios, including Larry Austin's 'Life Pulse Prelude'
> (1984), based on sketches for Charles Ives' unfinished Universe Symphony;
> Gareth Loy's 'Blood From A Stone' (1992), for Max Mathews' electronic
> violin; Chris Chafe's and Dexter Morrill's 'Duo Improvisation' (1991), with
> celletto (Chafe's electronic cello), trumpet, and computer; Neil Rolnick's
> 'The Persistence of the Clave' (1992); Rodney Waschka II's 'Last Night'
> (1990), for alto sax and piano; Jon Appleton's 'Homenaje a Milanes' (1987),
> for Synclavier; and Larry Polansky's '(And to rule...)(Cantillation Study
> #2)' (1988), for flute and computer. Assembled by Larry Austin.
> => eMUSIC #CE-111 $15
>
> SEAMUS
> A selection, mostly for taped sounds with and without acoustic-instrument
> performances, compiled by the Society for Electro-Acoustic Music in the
> United States. Includes Larry Nelson's 'Order and Alliance'(1991), Scott
> Wyatt's 'Counterpoints' (1992), Joseph Koykkar's 'Triple Play' (1992), Joseph
> Anderson's 'in mosaic' (1992), Charles Mason's 'The Blazing Macaw' (1992),
> Stephen Beck's 'Love's Not Time's Fool' (1992), Eric Chasalow's 'Fast
> Forward' (1988), and Paul Koonce's 'Whitewash' (1992).
> => eMUSIC #SE-100 $15
>
> JEWEL BOX
> Music, performance art, and radio works by Anne LeBaron, Laetitia Sonami,
> Sussan Deihim, Bun Ching Lam, Catherine Jauniaux, Ikue Mori, Sapphire, Mary
> Ellen Childs, and Michelle Kinney, all exceptional women composers and
> performance artists with something to say. Sometimes something spellbinding.
> Storytelling and sounds from harp to household objects to electronics to
> electronically treated speech.
> => eMUSIC #TE-101 $16
>
> AUSTRAL VOICES
> Exceptional voices from Australia. Alan Lamb records "telegraph wires
> singing in the wind." Alistair Riddell plays a computer-driven piano. Sarah
> Hopkins extends cello and vocal sounds in the "natural unhurried rhythms of
> the environment of the Northern Territory." Warren Burt composes for his
> specially made and tuned tuning forks. Ros Bandt records in a hollow
> concrete cylinder five floors underground in Melbourne. Jeff Pressing plays
> sequencers and synthesizers. Ross Bolleter uses the ruined piano at the
> Nallan sheep station north of Perth.
> => eMUSIC #NA-107 $16
>
> ===============================
> COMPOSERS: discs that are indicators
> to a single composer's approach.
> ===============================
>
> FRANCOIS BAYLE: FABULAE
> Bayle is director of the Groupe de Recherche Musicale in Paris and inheritor
> of the tradition of musique concrete. He stretches the tradition. His
> sounds start from acoustic activities -- xylophone glissandi, bird calls,
> wind, percussion, harps, water bubbling -- but the total effect is of an
> unlimited orchestra accompanying an imaginary ballet.
> => eMUSIC #IN-124 $16
>
> GIUSEPPE G. ENGLERT
> Englert was a founding member of the Groupe Art et Informatique de Vincennes
> (GAIV) in Paris. He's always looked for new ways to compose, to think.
> 'Sopra la Girolmeta' (1991), the electronic work here, is about algorithms
> and interactivity. Also: 'Les Avoines folles' (1963) for string quartet;
> 'Fragment & Caracol' (1974) for orchestra; 'La Joute des Lierres' (1966)
> for string quartet; and 'Babel' (1983) for orchestra.
> => eMUSIC #GR-101 $19
>
> PAULINE OLIVEROS: CRONE MUSIC
> Originally composed to accompany the actors' amplified dialog throughout
> Mabou Mines' production of 'Lear', here it's performed by Oliveros on her
> expanded accordion -- which employs electronics to process the instrument's
> sound during performance.
> => eMUSIC #LO-112 $15
>
> JERRY HUNT: GROUND
> Hunt performed with devices -- usually his own inventions, often involving
> visuals and collaborations with other artists -- linked together in systems.
> As he puts it, "congruent layers of associations of inflection-calls
> evoke... point specific, melody-action strings embedded in a reference
> context of conventions of performance." At some point in your life, you must
> experience the originality of Jerry Hunt's personality.
> => eMUSIC #OO-107 $15
>
> DEXTER MORRILL: GETZ VARIATIONS
> Underneath Morrill's computer music lurks the soul of a jazz musician. It's
> in the turns of the phrases, moods, rhythms, colors. 'Getz Variations'
> (1984), 'Sketches for Invisible Man' (1989), and 'Six Studies and an
> Improvisation' (1992) all involve saxophones and computers, the lyrical and
> the interesting. David Demsey plays the saxophones.
> => eMUSIC #CE-120 $15
>
> ALCIDES LANZA: TRILOGY
> Lanza grew up in Argentina, lived in New York, and now lives in Montreal.
> 'Trilogy' is an autobiographical cycle of songs presented as an evening of
> music theatre for singer, electronic sounds, and lights, with texts in
> English, French, Spanish, and an invented language, sung here by the
> impressive Meg Sheppard.
> => eMUSIC (#SH-100) $16
>
> ROBERT NORMANDEAU: LIEUX INOUIS / UNHEARD-OF PLACES
> Normandeau's unheard-of places are in the scenes depicted by his sounds, of
> wind, footsteps, water, words... and synthesized electronic sounds, composed
> in Montreal, Quebec, Bourges (France), and Ohain (Belgium). With evocative
> audio imagery veering between narration and abstract sound, his music casts a
> spell.
> => eMUSIC #IM-101 $15
>
> MICHEL REDOLFI: DESERT TRACKS
> Redolfi directs the Centre International de Recherche Musicale in Nice, but
> he's also spent a bit of time in California. In 'Desert Tracks' (1988), you
> feel the space and heat of the Mohave, of Death Valley -- in Redolfi's words,
> "the shivering resonances of the landscapes..." Also: 'Too Much Sky' (1984)
> and 'Pacific Tubular Waves' (1979), inspired by the California coast.
> Redolfi's sounds glitter like the waves.
> => eMUSIC #IN-105 $16
>
> CARL STONE: MOM'S BAR-B-Q
> "Sometimes," Stone says, "I'm simply attracted to a kind of wonderful
> moment..." So he takes the moment and makes something special, like the
> extraordinary sound transformations in 'Banteay Srey' (1991) and 'Shing Kee'
> (1986). Also: 'Gadberry's' (1989), 'Mom's' (1990), and 'Chao Nue' (1990).
> => eMUSIC #NA-114 $16
>
> NEIL ROLNICK: MACEDONIAN AIR DRUMMING
> Rolnick gets around. He was in Yugoslavia for the sounds in 'Macedonian Air
> Drumming' (1990), which he performs with Air Drums. And 'ReRebong' (1989)
> uses Indonesian gamelan sounds. 'Sanctus' (1990), a score for Barbara
> Hammer's film, is electronically-processed fragments from masses by Machaut,
> Byrd, Bach, et al. 'Balkanization' (1988) uses Balkan folk songs.
> => eMUSIC #BR-105 $15
>
> MARY JANE LEACH: CELESTIAL FIRES
> Here's music -- 'Bruckstuck', 'Green Mountain Madrigal', 'Mountain Echoes',
> and 'Ariel's Song' -- performed by the New York Treble Singers, a chorus of
> women's voices which makes the sounds float like clouds on a breezy day.
> There's also 'Feu de Joie' and 'Trio for Duo', instrumental and vocal
> pieces.
> => eMUSIC #XI-106 $15
>
> PHILL NIBLOCK: FOUR FULL FLUTES
> Niblock records instruments, in this case played by flutists Petr Kotik and
> Eberhard Blum, and mixes the sounds in multiple layers and clusters to form a
> big sound, sometimes strident, sometimes harmonic. As Tom Johnson said of
> Niblock's music, "It must be heard to be believed." It's true.
> => eMUSIC #XI-100 $15
>
> BOB WILLEY: PEACE PIECES
> Willey lives in California and, in his words, this disc is "new age jazz
> bossa nova folk electronic instrumental experimental." Actually, it's more
> than that: it's California new age jazz bossa... It's also Norway,
> Casteneda, and other places and writers, and it puts a hi tech approach in
> the service of easy listening.
> => eMUSIC #OU-100 $15
>
> =============================== HOW TO ORDER
>
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>
=======================================================================
Pierre Joris | He who wants to escape the world, translates it.
Dept. of English | --Henri Michaux
SUNY Albany |
Albany NY 12222 | "Herman has taken to writing poetry. You
tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | need not tell anyone, for you know how
email: | such things get around."
joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --Mrs. Melville in a letter to her mother.
=======================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 23:55:25 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Organization: sirius.com
Subject: Fireworks at NYU Kerouac Conference
I hope you've all read this message from "Levi Asher," which I read on the
alt.books.beatgeneration newsgroup.
Can anyone on our poetics list confirm this first-hand account of World
War III at NYU? Enjoy!
K. Killian
> RINGSIDE SEAT
>
> NICOSIA VS. CHARTERS AT THE KEROUAC CONFERENCE
>
> June 6, 1995
>
> The Writings of Jack Kerouac conference at New York University began
> on June 4 as scheduled -- and that was about the last thing that went
> the way it was supposed to. The first sign that events were spinning
> out of control came when the Unbearables, an inspired and largely
> disorganized group of angry writers planning to protest the
> complacency and dullness of the NYU event, got more publicity in
> publications like the Village Voice (and in web sites like Literary
> Kicks) than the official conference got. They announced a series of
> alternative events, like a Jack Kerouac Impersonators Spontaneous
> Prose contest, to take place at the same time as the official events.
>
> I exchanged e-mail with a few of the Unbearables, and promptly decided
> to cast my lot with them. I wasn't sure how much they would have to
> say, but whatever it was at least it was going to be new, and they
> weren't planning to lighten my wallet by $140 for "registration"
> either. Also, panel discussions bore me and I hate wearing "HELLO! My
> Name Is ..." tags. Easy decision.
>
> The Unbearables' protest, though, ended up being upstaged by a much
> more shocking one. The fate of Jack Kerouac's estate and legacy has
> been a topic of controversy for some time now; the Sampas family
> (Kerouac's last wife was Stella Sampas) owns everything, basically,
> and Jack's daughter Jan has been vying for a share. Jan Kerouac was
> barely recognized as a daughter by Jack during his lifetime, and her
> attempts at being included in the "family" now have mostly been
> rebuked. Jan (author of a couple of books, including Baby Driver,
> which I heard was pretty good) has also been very sick with kidney
> failure lately, and this may have contributed to the intensity of
> feeling she has been expressing about the ownership of her fathers'
> estate.
>
> That's enough background -- now I'll get to the fireworks. Gerald
> Nicosia, author of the most recent and most acclaimed major Kerouac
> biography, Memory Babe, was apparently not invited to participate in
> any part of the NYU conference. Ann Charters, author of the first
> major Kerouac biography, Kerouac (published in 1973), was invited.
> Because Ann Charters has been considered 'friendly' by the Sampas
> family while Nicosia has expressed support for Jan Kerouac, Nicosia
> believes that his exclusion from the conference was a conspiracy
> against himself and Jan.
>
> This may very well be the case. But get this : Nicosia showed up at
> the conference anyway, wearing a black t-shirt that said
>
> "Gerald Nicosia ...
> A tiresome wannabe"
> -- Ann Charters
>
> on the front. On the back were pictures of Jan and some member of the
> Sampas family (I didn't get a good enough look), and, in rock-concert
> style bold colorful print, the words "KEROUAC VS. SAMPAS". He also
> wore his "HELLO! My Name Is ..." tag upside down, and had replaced the
> words "Kerouac Conference" with "Sampas Conference."
>
> I found this very surprising. Nicosia is quite an established figure
> in the Kerouac 'field,' and I've heard people praise his book -- the
> longest and most thorough as well as the most recent of all the
> Kerouac biographies -- more than any other, including Charters'. He
> was certainly risking his reputation by airing his grievances in such
> a public fashion.
>
> It is also admirable, I suppose, that he is doing this not for
> himself, but for Jan Kerouac. At the same time, as I watched him
> wander the lobby outside the auditorium where booksellers and
> Kerouac-interest-groups had set up tables and where people like me
> (who hadn't paid to get in) hung around taking in the scenery, I
> detected a certain psychotic intensity to the expression on his face,
> and it occurred to me that he was maybe taking this all a little too
> seriously.
>
> This opinion was reinforced when I talked to some other people hanging
> out around the lobby. I heard that somebody -- either a Jan/Nicosia
> supporter, or Nicosia himself -- had disrupted one of the conferences
> in the morning. Later I was talking to someone else about the Beat
> figures who were hanging around the lobby (at that moment, Anne
> Waldman, Joyce Johnson and Ray Bremser as well as Nicosia) and this
> person was telling me about the conversations he'd had with them. He
> looked at Nicosia and advised me, "Don't talk to him unless you want
> to do a lot of listening."
>
> That was Act One : Act Two took place at Biblio's bookstore in
> Tribeca, where the Unbearables were staging their Jack Kerouac
> Impersonators Contest. Ann Charters showed up with her husband Sam (a
> legendary Blues author, who wrote Country Blues and The Blues Makers,
> and who played a very important part in the late-fifties/early-sixties
> rediscovery of Robert Johnson, Son House and many other old bluesmen).
> They were sitting at a table with a very nice guy I'd recently talked
> to in the NYU lobby (Ralph, from Minneapolis) and since Ralph offered
> me a seat near him, I suddenly found myself sitting next to Ann and
> Sam Charters. Then in comes Gerald Nicosia, still wearing his black
> t-shirt with the nasty Ann Charters quotation on the front, and he
> heads straight for our table. Ann sees him coming and looks away.
> "Excuse me, Ann," Gerald Nicosia says. "I just had to ask you ... do
> you think it's right that I was forcibly removed from the conference
> this morning under threat of police intervention?"
>
> Or something like that. Ann tries to play it cool. "I know nothing
> about it, Gerald. I had a cold today, and wasn't even at the
> conference."
>
> "Well, do you think it was right? And do you think it's right that
> so-and-so Jan Kerouac-this and Sampas-family that and so-on and
> so-forth ..." all in a strident, nearly-threatening tone of voice. He
> did not seem far from physical violence, although this would not have
> been much of a problem, as Sam Charters was about a foot taller and a
> hundred pounds heavier than Nicosia. Ann kept trying to put off his
> questions. "I'm very sorry that happened, Gerald" "I really don't know
> what it is you want me to do about that" and so on. Nicosia walked
> away, simmered for a few minutes, then came back even angrier and
> started in again.
>
> All the time I'm sitting there thinking : Wow. I'm sitting here
> watching the two major Kerouac biographers duke it out, and I got a
> ringside seat.
>
> I'm now going to do something I've never done before in Literary
> Kicks. I've never expressed my opinion on the Jan vs. Sampas Family
> hijinks, and that's mainly because I think the whole thing is kind of
> dumb. I also don't think it's very interesting to serious Kerouac
> readers -- although from my seat at Biblio's I have to admit it was
> starting to get pretty damn interesting.
>
> Anywhere, here's how I call it, for what it's worth :
>
> 1. Every family has problems, and there is nothing surprising about
> the fact that Jan Kerouac (Jack's daughter from his second marraige,
> and a daughter that he refused to recognize and almost never met) is
> not friendly with the family of Jack's last wife. I'm not saying the
> Sampas family is right to snub her, or that she should not feel free
> to express how she feels about being snubbed. But like I said, every
> family has problems, and I don't see why this particular problem
> (which is all about money, really, and has nothing to do with incest
> or rape or death or drugs or anything like that) should be blown up
> into such a major public issue.
>
> 2. Jan Kerouac and Gerald Nicosia are saying that the Sampas family
> is getting rich by selling off the Kerouac papers little by little,
> and that they should instead donate or sell the entire Kerouac
> archive to a library. Well ... okay, whatever. My problem with this
> argument is : who really cares? Maybe it's better for a single
> library to own the whole thing, but is this really a critical issue?
>
> You all know how much I care about Kerouac's life and work. But
> let's admit it ... the guy published enough stuff even during his
> lifetime to keep his readers busy for years, even decades. And
> that's not to mention his voluminous letters and journals and art
> notebooks, and the reminiscences of his many friends and lovers and
> compatriots. If you put me in a room with the entire Kerouac archive
> right now, I don't honestly know how interested I'd be. Shit, I
> haven't even gotten around to reading Vanity of Duluoz yet!
>
> I always find it ridiculous when people make too big a deal over a
> writer's personal archive. No writer is that good. Kerouac was a
> man, not a holy savior. Just chill out, everybody, all right?
>
> 3. By the end of the night I had spoken to Ann Charters, and I liked
> her. I'm aware that many serious students of Beat literature
> consider her to be a little too chummy with some of the major living
> Beat figures (mainly, Ginsberg). She's been accused of prettying up
> the truth in some sections of her book, and she's even been dissed
> here in Literary Kicks by Tim Bowden in his Carolyn Cassady memoir
> (he accuses her of bringing a friend to Carolyn's house to engage
> Carolyn in a vapid discussion while she -- Ann, that is -- furiously
> scribbles notes from Carolyn's personal papers.) So I feel she's
> already been raked over the coals, and I would just like to say a
> word in her defense.
>
> This woman wrote about Jack Kerouac in 1973, back when nobody took
> him seriously as a writer. I mean, NOBODY. Her book wasn't even
> published by an established firm : Straight Arrow Books was a
> division of Rolling Stone magazine. That was what the mainstream
> literary world thought of Jack Kerouac back in '73, four years after
> his death. It took courage, vision and selfless dedication to devote
> her career to a a writer whose literary reputation had never been
> good, and was now in a state of utter ruin.
>
> Now everybody from Viking Penguin to New York University kisses
> Kerouac's ass, and it's an all-new world for Beat scholarship. But
> let's have a little respect for the person who put her reputation on
> the line back when it meant something. Yeah, Nicosia is sticking up
> for Jan Kerouac. But Charters once stuck up for Jack Kerouac, and
> that means something more.
>
> Okay, I'm done talking about this. I'd like to conclude this report
> with a big "YEEE-HAHHH!" for the Unbearables, who put on a fun, truly
> spontaneous show at Biblio's. It started off with some jokes that were
> pretty dumb, focusing mainly on a burly guy in a moustache running
> around in a wig and housedress pretending to be Kerouac's mother.
> Kinda cute, kinda reminiscent of The Diggers, but also much too long.
> Some of the audience left during this part, but then the night started
> to get going, and a session of Kerouac-inspired spontaneous rants and
> readings began to really generate some steam. Some of it was even good
> writing, and almost all of it was good ranting. The Unbearables are a
> cool bunch; I've heard they've previously protested the bad poetry in
> the New Yorker, to which I can only say : what about the shitty
> fiction?
>
> At one point during the Sip A Beer With Mrs. Kerouac Contest I leaned
> over to Ann Charters and said "You know, it just occurred to me that
> you're the only person in this room who actually did sip a beer with
> Mrs. Kerouac."
>
> She replied, "It was actually champagne. She only drank champagne."
>
> "Oh really?" I said. "Expensive stuff, or cheap?"
>
> "Cheap stuff," Ann Charters said.
>
> That's the end of my report. You'll notice I didn't say anything about
> the conferences themselves. They're still going on today, as I sit at
> home writing this up. I have a feeling I'm not missing much. As for
> what's going on in the lobby ... I think I've seen enough already.
>
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com
>
> Creator of Literary Kicks, the Beat Literature Web Site
> URL: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html
>
> Please preview my new Web project, Queensboro Ballads
> URL: http://levity.willow.com/brooklyn/
>
> "How can you have any pudding if you won't eat your meat?"
> -- Pink Floyd
> ----------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 1995 09:29:54 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fireworks at NYU Kerouac Conference
In message <9506100652.AA06348@SIRIUS.COM> UB Poetics discussion group writes:
> I hope you've all read this message from "Levi Asher," which I read on the
> alt.books.beatgeneration newsgroup.
>
> Can anyone on our poetics list confirm this first-hand account of World
> War III at NYU? Enjoy!
>
> K. Killian
>
>
> > RINGSIDE SEAT
Well, that's all fine and well, but ... i hate to be pedantic but...how was the
conference? any good papers? any good readings? anything other than
"dysfunctional family systems" run rampant? (too bad my "beat sensibilities"
class just ended, this would've been a fine way to conclude, by bringing in a
long printout of family feudings. --maria d
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 1995 10:30:07 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@ALBNYVMS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: opportunity knocks
Dodie--Maybe Rae could read with Will Alexander--I don't know many
other multiculturals Sun & Moon has published...
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 1995 10:55:20 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@ALBNYVMS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: opportunity knocks
OOPS---ignore my message to Dodie too--chris s.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 1995 11:08:50 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@ALBNYVMS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: palinode on a nightingale
I'm surprised no one's corrected me--
I quoted Duncan's "Olson was a big man" and said SO WHAT!--So was
DAVEY CROCKETT--I think it's really Daniel Boone--
"With a corn cob pipe and a button nose and two eyes made out of..."
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 1995 15:22:35 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Bernstein <BERNSTEI@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Organization: University at Buffalo
Subject: Welcome to Poetics msg (revised)
Rev. 6-10-95
____________________________________________________________________
Welcome to the Poetics List
&
The Electronic Poetry Center
____________________________________________________________________
_______Contents___________
1. About the Poetics List
2. Subscriptions
3. Who's Subscribed
4. Digest Option
5. When you'll be away
6. Archives of the Poetics List
7. To Subscribe to RIF/T
8. Interfaces, HTML, URL
9. The Electronic Poetry Center (EPC)
10. How to Reach the EPC
11. Poetics Archives at EPC
12. Publishers & Editors Read This!
_______________________________
Appendix I: Some Links via EPC
Appendix II: Archives (Alternate)
[This document was prepared by Charles Bernstein (bernstei@ubvms.cc.buffalo.
edu) and Loss Pequen~o Glazier (lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu).]
____________________________________________________________________
1. About the Poetics List
Please note that this is a private list and information about the list
should not be posted to other lists or directories of lists. The idea
is to keep the list to those with specific rather than general
interests, and also to keep the scale of the list small and the volume
managable. Word-of-mouth (and its electronic equivalents) seems to be
working fine: please feel free to invite people you know to sign-up.
It is easier for me if they sign-up by themselves AND send me
(bernstei@ubvms) a note telling me how they heard about the list. I
will send them *this* document in reply.
____________________________________________________________________
2. Subscriptions
The list has open subscriptions. You can subscribe (sub) or
unsubscribe (unsub) by sending a one-line message, with no subject
line, to:
listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu
the one-line message should say:
unsub poetics
{or}
sub poetics Jill Jillway
(replacing Jill Jillway with your own name; but note: do not use your
name to unsub)
I will be sent a notice of all subscription activity.
____________________________________________________________________
3. Who's Subscribed
To see who is subscribed to Poetics, send an e-mail message to
listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu; leave the "Subject" line of the e-mail message
blank. In the body of your e-mail message type:
review poetics
____________________________________________________________________
4. Digest Option
The Poetics List can send a large number of individual messages to
your account to each day! If you would prefer to receive ONE message
each day, which would include all messages posted to the list for that
day, you can now use the digest option:
Send this one-line message (no subject line) to
listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu
set poetics digest
NOTE:!! Send this message to "listserv" not to Poetics or as a reply
to this message!!
You can switch back to individual messages by sending this messagage:
set poetics mail
____________________________________________________________________
5. When you'll be away
You can temporarily turn off your mail by sending a message:
set poetics nomail
& turn it on again with: set poetics mail
____________________________________________________________________
6. Archives of the Poetics List
There are two ways to get archives. The easiest way is to use the
archives of the list at the Electronic Poetry Center (EPC), for which
see section 11 below. The other is described in Appendix II.
____________________________________________________________________
7. To Subscribe to RIF/T
To subscribe to RIF/T, the e-poetry magazine at UB's Poetics Program:
Send an e-mail message to listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu. Leave
the "Subject" line of the e-mail message blank. In the body of
your e-mail message type:
subscribe e-poetry John Milton
replacing your real name for "John Milton"
You will receive a confirmation of your subscription soon thereafter.
____________________________________________________________________
8. Interfaces, HTML, URL (EPC Preface)
Before describing the resources of the EPC and how to gain access to
it, it is useful to understand a few Internet concepts.
8.1 Interface
Gopher is an ascii-based interface that offers access through the
selection of menus; the web is an ascii-based interface that offers
access through _screens_ of information with links to other areas
appearing as highlighted text; Mosaic is a graphical interface
basically superimposed on the Web structure that offers images, sound,
video, and allows you to use your mouse as a navigational tool. The
EPC is accessible through any of these interfaces. It is presently
evolving strongly towards exclusive Web/Mosaic access.
Even as activities converge, it is also the time of divergent
interfaces. I am often surprised by the number of our contributors and
participants who do not even have gopher access. Most people, we
figure, have at least gopher access, though Web access is quickly
becoming a standard. Mosaic, it would be assumed, though assuming
predominance in the University setting, has hardly become a reality
for most dial-up users, particularly internationally.
8.2 HTML
The standard for Web/Mosaic documents is the markup protocol called
html. These are imbedded codes that you will see once in a while when
you download an html document. These codes give instructions to the
software about highlighting, fonts, and screen layout, as well as
providing for the _hot links_ that make possible Web/Mosaic
navigation.
8.3 URL
A URL, a "uniform resource locator," is to the Internet what a social
security number is to a person. In a web/mosaic interace, the "go to
URL" option will specify a specific and unique Internet address for
you to go to.
____________________________________________________________________
9. What is the Electronic Poetry Center?
The mission of this World-Wide Web based electronic poetry center is
to serve as a hypertextual gateway to the extraordinary range of
activity in formally innovative writing in the United States and the
world. The Center provides access to numerous electronic resources in
the new poetries including RIF/T and other electronic poetry journals,
the POETICS List archives, an AUTHOR library of electronic poetic
texts, and direct connections to numerous related electronic
RESOURCES. For texts housed at the Electronic Poetry Center, texts are
"definitive" texts inasmuch as, prior to posting, they have been
approved by their producers. JOURNALS distributed by the EPC include:
DIU / Albany
EPC.News / Buffalo
Experioddi(cyber)cist / Florence, AL
Inter\face / Albany, NY
Passages: A Technopoetics Journal / Albany, NY
Poemata - Canadian Poetry Assoc. / London, Ontario (Info)/
RIF/T: Electronic Space for New Poetry, Prose, & Poetics / Buffalo
Segue Foundation/Roof Book News / New York
TREE: TapRoot Electronic Edition / Lakewood, Ohio
We Magazine / Santa Cruz
Witz / Toluca Lake, CA / via Syntax
The Center also provides information about contemporary print little
magazines and SMALL PRESSES engaged in poetry and poetics. The Poetry
& Poetics DOCUMENT Archive provides access to a number of documents of
use to poets, teachers, and researchers. Here you will find essay
material and recent obituaries. The EPC also presently offers GALLERY,
SOUND, EXHIBITS, and an ANNOUNCEMENTS area.
The Electronic Poetry Center is administered by Loss Glazier and
Kenneth Sherwood in collaboration with Charles Bernstein. If you have
comments or suggestions about sites to be added to the Center, do not
hesitate to contact Loss Pequen~o Glazier, lolpoet@ acsu.buffalo.edu
or Kenneth Sherwood, e-poetry@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu
____________________________________________________________________
10. How to reach the EPC
Via the World-Wide Web, the Center can be reached at
http://writing.upenn.edu/internet/library/e-journals/ub/rift
(no spaces in the address)
(Alternatively, you may gopher to writing.upenn.edu. And use the
"Search Wings" feature to locate the EPC. Web access is, however,
recommended.)
Check with your system administrator if you have problems with access.
Also ask about setting a "bookmark" through your system for quick and
easy access to the Center when you invoke your interface.
____________________________________________________________________
11. Poetics Archives via EPC
Go to the EPC and select Poetics from the opening screen. Follow the
links to Poetics Archives. You may browse the archives by month and
year or search them for specific information. Your interface will
allow you to print or download any of these files.
____________________________________________________________________
12. Publishers & Editors Read This!
PUBLISHERS & EDITORS: Our listings of poetry and poetics information
is open and available to you. We are trying to make access to printed
publications as easy as possible to our users and ENCOURAGE you to
participate! Send a list of your press/publications to
lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu with the words EPC Press Listing in the
subject line. You may also send materials on disk. Though files marked
up with html are our goal, ascii files are perfectly acceptable.
Send us extended information on new publications (including any back cover copy
and sample poems) as well as complete catalogs/backlists (including excerpts
from reviews, sample poems, etc.). Be sure to include full information for
ordering--including prices and addresses and phone numbers both of the press
and any distributors.
Initially, you might want to send short anouncements of new publications
directly to the Poetics list as subscribers do not always (or ever) check the
EPC; in your message please include full information for ordering. If you have
a fuller listing at EPC, you might also mention that in any Poetics posts.
____________________________________________________________________
Appendix I: Some Links Provided by the EPC
Alternative-X
Basil Bunting Poetry Centre (Durham, England)
[Informational]
Best-Quality Audio Web Poems (Rhode Island)
Carma Bums 'Tour of Words'
CICNET Electronic Journal Archive
Institute for Advanced Technology in the Humanities
(Virginia)
Internet Poetry Archive (North Carolina)
Michigan Electronic Text Archive
Nous Refuse Discussion List (Illinois)
Postmodern Culture (North Carolina)
Whole Earth 'Lectronic Magazine
____________________________________________________________________
Appendix II: Alternate Method for Receiving Poetics Archives
You may also receive Poetics archives by e-mail, though the language
is somewhat arcane.
To receive postings for a particular month, for example, send an
e-mail message to listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu
leave the subject line of the message blank and in the body of the
message type:
get poetics.log9505 f=mail
Replace 95 (two digits) with the year and 05 (two digits) for the
month you seek.
For a complete list of available back files, send the message
index poetics f=mail
____________________________________________________________________
END OF POETICS LIST WELCOME
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 1995 16:50:34 EDT
Reply-To: beard@metdp1.met.co.nz
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: beard@MET.CO.NZ
Subject: hole/cobain/abba
Ira:
>Tom, I say let the
>elegies to Kurt flow; he was a better artist than you or I or 90% of
>this list's members will ever be, musically anyway.
I'll reserve judgement on Cobain's music, but I _do_ think that many of his
followers are responding more to his life/death than to his music. I know
people who have painted pictures or written poems "i.m. K.C.", but who admit to
having heard nothing except _Smells like Teen Spirit_. Commercially, death is a
smart career move. I just get sick of the Rock cliche of "live fast, die
young", and I get especially annoyed at those who believe one has to be
psychotic/addictive/angst-ridden/poor/smelly/revolutionary/suicidal in order to
be creative. Yawn.
>And the arrangements
>in Abba's songs were amazing; technically they were much more ambitious
>and experimental with melody and harmony than many pop bands; do their
>critics on this list mean that Abba were "bad" because they were kitsch
>(though they still tug mine and many a queer person's heartstrings) or
>silly Swedes or what
I agree that many Abba songs stand up very well as cover versions, a sign that
song-writing and not just star hysteria was a reason for their success. Chris
Knox did an amazing rendition of "Knowing me, knowing you", and I loved
Erasure's CD-single "Abba-esque". Incidentally, there's an Aussie band of Abba-
imitators called "Bjorn Again" who released a CD of Erasure covers called
"Erasure-ish". Hyperreal!
This has probably already strayed far enough from Poetics, so I won't describe
what _I_ call great music (especially since so much of it is instrumental:
Orbital, Kraftwerk, Black Dog, Steve Reich, Michael Nyman) except to mention
that my lyrical buttons are pushed by Bristol bands - Portishead, Tricky,
Massive Attack. Chilling poetry.
Tom.
______________________________________________________________________________
I/am a background/process, shrunk to an icon. | Tom Beard
I am/a dark place. | beard@metdp1.met.co.nz
I am less/than the sum of my parts... | Auckland, New Zealand
I am necessary/but not sufficient, | http://metcon.met.co.nz/
and I shall teach the stars to fall | nwfc/beard/www/hallway.html
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 1995 16:20:24 EDT
Reply-To: beard@metdp1.met.co.nz
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: beard@MET.CO.NZ
Subject: Re: Hilda Conklin (Laura Ranger)
Jordan:
>I'd like publication/ordering info for "Laura's Poems."
Published by Godwit Publishing Ltd, P.O. Box 4325, Auckland 1, New Zealand,
ISBN 0 908877 63 3.
>Readers of this list may know the book "Poems of a Little Girl" by Hilda
>Conklin (or Conkling--book's elsewhere).
Another NZ example is Gloria Rawlinson, who is now in her 70s, and has had a
collection "Gloria In Excelsis" published recently by Riemke Ensing as a gift.
And Wystan, thanks for pointing out Michele's success. DIA deserves to sell as
many copies as "Laura's Poems": it's full of poetry that enchants, bewilders,
intrigues and excites me. I'm particularly glad that it beat "Skinning a Fish".
I didn't hear about the results until yesterday, since I've been on nightshift,
and my connection to the "Real" has been even more tenuous than usual.
Tom.
______________________________________________________________________________
I/am a background/process, shrunk to an icon. | Tom Beard
I am/a dark place. | beard@metdp1.met.co.nz
I am less/than the sum of my parts... | Auckland, New Zealand
I am necessary/but not sufficient, | http://metcon.met.co.nz/
and I shall teach the stars to fall | nwfc/beard/www/hallway.html
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 1995 12:55:42 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM>
Subject: Music, Sentimentality, and a discrete indiscreet BlaserCon comment
After coming back from the much fabled (and rightly so) BlaserCon '95 to a
week of intermittent Domain Name System errors ("none of the known name
servers are responding"), I'm ready to wade into the ongoing musical
debate. I read a lot of this in big chunks and hope I have correctly
attributed any quotes. I also missed how this thread got titled
"sentimentality" but that's not important.
A few people (Diane Ward & Luigi Bob Drake - thanks for reminding me of Gid
Tanner & the Skillet Lickers - come to mind, I'm sure I've left out some
others) note that different musics serve different functions. But much of
the discussion seems to fall into a kind of cliched jazz versus rock
argument. "if it's too loud, you're too old" kind of argument, with all
that that characterization implies for both sides of the, uh, discourse.
I'm particularly unclear about George Bowering's insistence on the primacy
of "the hard stuff" here, given the range of his interests within jazz.
George, it can't just be that Hole's use of only 2 or 3 chords bothers you,
'cause the Ayler Bros. (& I have just sent you something about Don on the
back channel) used the same 2 or 3 chords (and, though Ayler's music was
timbrally very odd, it was most often limited to traditional harmonic
structures). And the Aylers, as you recall, were damned loud live, too.
So what is it really?
Ira's three questions early on (& the responses from Sheila Murphy and
others) raise some of the issues that distinguish music from, not just
poetry, but most of the arts. Music may not be more moving than, say,
poetry, but there are more standards (which differ greatly according to
genre & style, which I think calls into question much of the above
referenced Bowering/Sondheim discourse) as to what constitutes a
"successful" performance in music.
This is especially an issue for me after seeing/hearing more than fifty
poets read in four days at BlaserCon. I have to say that some of the
"best" readers, as far as performance skills go, were not the best readers
as far as getting their work across. Some of the more performative
readings were distracting and in one or two instances seemed to contradict
the sense of the text being, uh, intoned.
But that's a matter of taste and it seems that by tradition we only make
critical comments about music on poetics-list, so let me here invoke
another poetics-list tradition.
"Oops, I didn't mean for that to go out to the whole list. Sorry."
Anyway, I've rambled in various directions for long enough.
Herb Levy
herb@eskimo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 1995 12:55:50 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM>
Subject: Thanks for the EMF catalog
I moved this from the body of the much longer music morass I posted earlier
to ensure that my thanks to Pierre Joris for posting the EMF catalog to
poetics didn't get lost.
So thanks, Pierre, for getting this catalog on-line here. It's already
given me something to point at for a couple of backchannel talks about new
music.
I'd only heard about EMF in the formative stages from some folks. Now that
it's a happening thing, I find it's a nicely quirky collection of music,
with a lot of very good music.
There's also a few things I wouldn't want the people who live upstairs to
listen to, but I can't hear most of the music they play (& they certainly
hear more than their share of weird crap) so why should I complain?
They don't have anything by Band of Susans yet, but I'm sure that'll soon
be remedied.
Herb Levy
herb@eskimo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 1995 15:54:42 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: James Sherry <jsherry@PANIX.COM>
Subject: The Bearables
Comments: To: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <199506110403.AAA14770@panix4.panix.com>
This may sound hopeless, but WHO ARE the Unbearables and are they really
as unbearable as all that? What are their names and where do they
publish? James (Pplease reply direct to me since I can't always get to
the listserv>)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 09:20:55 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: Re: sentimentality
Not a word about the wonderful musics before Bach in Europe. Fact is
if you go at it with focussed determination you can get to anyplace
in music.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 1995 15:03:40 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Lindz Williamson <lmichell@UNIXG.UBC.CA>
Subject: cobain
Hey LC, LC, You're alright by Me, Superstar
If Kurt Cobain deserves a Leonard Cohen heaven then so do I.
I too worship sex in temples of suffering where the music and noise are
so loud
they make my insides hurt.
I am equally cursed as I only know Warhol Messiahs that bring
deliverance to
the pop world. Consumption is my motto as I swallow myself in order not
to be
eaten alive by paisley clean bureaucratic barracuda.
I long to be that silver star shining momentarily on the silver screen
with or without
packaging and plastic.
A truly tragic ending is so much more fun than fanning the
proverbial
embers of talent.
To strive, to seek and not to yield means nothing to me, I do not have
Ulysses
strength or pride. Good things do not always come to those who wait.
I want to explode in a vibrant flash and be consumed by my own
brilliance, never
to fade into the shadows of the next trend, but to be the innovator herself.
I want to feel as though I'm not supposed to be here, ahead of my time or
trapped in millennia past.
Alienation is respectable, the sad distance protects and preserves an
icon from
years of abuse and misuse.
Poor milk at my idol's feet in the temple when I'm gone, but don't embalm
me
like little Lenin or the righteous Ramesses. Tattoo my name across your
chest but don't condemn me to this place any
longer than I have already beared.
I've practiced the art of the disgusting and
You see I want to be free when I travel to my Leonard Cohen heaven of sex
and
religion,
I need to meet my maker head on so I can see what Nirvana really smells
like.
Lindz
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 1995 18:36:25 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ryan Knighton <knighton@SFU.CA>
Subject: All about the taking
In-Reply-To: <MAILQUEUE-101.950612092055.1120@ccnov2.auckland.ac.nz> from
"Tony Green" at Jun 12, 95 09:20:55 am
Just finished rereading Rat Jelly, one of my favourites, right now,
and was smitten with aquestion for the list(ners), spurred by the
following, unfolding:
TAKING
It is the formal need
to suck blossoms out of the flesh
in those we admire
planting them private in the brain
and cause fruit in lonely gardens.
To learn to point the exact arc
of steel still soft and crazy
before it hits the page.
I have stroked teh mood and tone
of hundred year dead men and women
Emily Dickinson's large dog, Conrad's beard
and, for myself,
removed them from historical traffic.
Having tasted their brain. Or heard
the wet sound of a death cough.
Their idea of the immaculate moment is now.
The rumours pass on
the rumours pass on
are planted
till they become a spine.
Every noticed how often "brain" occurs in Ondaatje's poetry?
Very stark. Anyhow, as some of you may have noticed, I am really
interested in influence. My question is not just what do we make
of/with influence, the "taking", but what is the mechanics of
influence? How does one translate the inertia?
Ryan
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 14:25:24 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: Re: All about the taking
Dear Ryan, that sounds like the historical effort that could be
called appropriation of the personae of the "past" a kind of
inhabitation of the self-portrait of the deceased, a way to shift
one's identity, not necessarily amelioration, to become something one
would wish oneself to be, by the process of bio-graphy. That "taking
"is all about the giving of whatever one is able to the deceased (love, pity,
questioning, argument, what else?) The deceased are different
teachers from the living in the exercise of their usually kinder
seeming authority. What do you have on this, it interests me too,
and I'm just sketching aloud here...(too damn tired after a long
seminar to articulate anything so big as a theory). The statements
in the verses seem to lead to somewhere about the same kind of
place?
Best
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 09:40:31 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jordan Davis." <Jordan70@AOL.COM>
Subject: The Unbearables/letter from a young poet
James:
The Unbearables are published (I believe) by Grove. Their Andre Breton is Ron
Kolm. Their Eluard is (was?--I think they excommunicated him after the New
Yorker printed him) Sparrow. Christian X. Hunter, Michael Carter, Jill
Rapaport, Buddy Kold, and dozens of others are associated with the group,
which met regularly at Cafe No Bar on 9th btw 1 and A for a year or so.
Rilke:
Okay, I'm off it. Now, tell me (without cribbing from Zukofsky) what are the
minimum and the maximum bounds on a poem? What does a poem have to do to be a
good poem?
Love,
Elvis aron presley
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 09:40:56 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jordan Davis." <Jordan70@AOL.COM>
Subject: name calling
Chris S.
What do you wish would happen on this list?
Marisa J.
What do you wish would happen on this list?
Maria D.
What do you wish would happen on this list?
Kenny G.
What do you wish would happen on this list?
Lisa J.
What do you wish would happen on this list?
Sheila E.
What do you wish would happen on this list?
Curious
Jordan
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 11:44:03 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Edward Foster <EFOSTER@VAXC.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hilda Conklin (Laura Ranger)
i met/corresponded with conklin many years ago; the odd business of a poet
whose career ended before she started high school. as i remember, she eventuallylived in a no where town, easthampton, massachusetts. she died a few yrs ago (?)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 12:13:49 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: FUNKHOUSER CHRISTOPH <cf2785@CSC.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: BOMB PLANS AVAILABLE
This message just appeared on the Aerospace List. I thought
it's appearance might be of interest to members of this
list.
Forwarded message:
Posted: Mon, Jun 5, 1995 6:23 PM EDT Msg: IVJF-5161-3293/20
From: ("RFC-822": <(a)uga.cc.uga.edu:owner-aerosp-l(a)SIVM.SI.EDU>,
SITE:INTERNET)
CC: abutrica/NASA
Subj: Historic / Scientific Documents *** Just Released!!
Ref No: (q)15967 Mon Jun 5 18:22:48 1995(q)(a)
gateway.sprint.com
Message Id: sprintf.me.966:05.06.95.22.22.45:us/tel
email/internet
Authorized by:
:(C:USA,ADMD:telemail,
PRMD:internet,
RFC-822"LWALLYSEAG(a)AOL.COM)
Content: Important
Original Encoded Information: iA5Text
We share a similar interest in the History/Science of WWII. I have a good
friend who just retired as the Associate Director of Los Alamos Natl Labs in
New Mexico.
He gave me the plans to the FAT MAN & LITTLE BOY Atomic Bombs. (Unique
commemorative, declassified and "just" released!)
This is a "must have" for anyone interested in History or Science. I can
provide a Museum quality reproduction (1st Draft ) of these documents to you
if you are interested.
If you are willing to cover my costs, I will gladly
send them to you.
My "cost" of production and 1st class postage is $15.00 plus $3.00 shipping
for each set.
I have a limited supply of 1st drafts, so please let me know asap.
( please forward to anyone who might be interested or benifit from these. )
Make check payable to: Jeff Slaton
Sincerely,
Jeff Slaton
6808 Truchas Dr. NE
Albq., NM 87109
"Support The Sciences"
2
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 13:53:49 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Bernstein <BERNSTEI@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Organization: University at Buffalo
Subject: Internet Censorship (Exxon/Gorton bill)
I received this message today from Lucy Komisar of PEN American Center, about a
matter that affects all on this list but which only those of us in the U.S. can
do much about.
****
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 09:12:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Internet censorship on Senate floor
The attempt to censor the Internet comes up on the floor tomorrow, Tuesday.
It's important for senators to get calls from their constituents. Long
distance to Washington is NOT necessary--just call your senators' local
offices--they keep a record.
Say you want the Senator to vote against the Exon/Gorton and
Dole/Grassley amendments to censor the Internet and for the Leahy bill.
The operator will ask for your name and address, and that's it. Takes 2
minutes.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 11:18:56 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Carl Lynden Peters <clpeters@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: All about the taking
In-Reply-To: <199506120136.SAA13270@fraser.sfu.ca> from "Ryan Knighton" at Jun
11, 95 06:36:25 pm
ryan,
have you read bloom's _anxiety of influence_? --
i've only read one essay by bloom, although that title has come up of
late in recent converstations. from what i gather, he talks abt strong
poets and weak poets, and how in order for a weak poet to become strong
seeks to misread the precursor poet --but that's overly sketchy, i know...
...influence and choice...?
take care,
c
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 15:48:05 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: Call for Essays
****************** CALL FOR ESSAYS *******************
I am currently investigating the possibility of putting together an
anthology of essays on American prosodies after Whitman and Dickinson
(and by "American" I mean the whole hemisphere).
I'm thinking of prosody in its most expansive sense, the overall sonal
structure of the poem, including rhythm, syntax, rhyme, and lineation.
This does NOT include discussions of poetics. Approaches might include
anything from discussions such as Duncan's "The Adventure of Whitman's
Line" to more technical essays, such as Donald Wesling's "The
Prosodies of Free Verse." I am not primarily interested in strictly
quantitative analyses, i.e. finding the perfect system for measuring
speech rhythms, unless they are tied to insights into the poem as a
meaningful act.
Several years ago Douglas Messerli announced such a book (it was
called *The New American Prosody*) but he finally had to abandoned it
when he couldn't get enough material. Let's try it again. I think
there's a definite need for it.
Anyone with material or ideas, please contact:
Michael Boughn
653 Euclid Ave.
Toronto ON M6G 2T6
Canada
e-mail: mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 16:07:12 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: Re: Call for Essay
Further to my last post about a prosody anthology, does anyone know of
any other lists where interested poets and scholars might be hovering?
If so, would you please send me relevant addresses back channel?
Thanks,
Mike
mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 17:02:35 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jordan Davis." <Jordan70@AOL.COM>
Subject: improved system of writing
Anybody want to go in on the $97 with me?
Jordan
Improved System of Writing
Most readers/writers of written matter are aware of, but generally accept as
practically unavoidable, occasional time-consuming, irritating, often
irreconcilable, ambiguities/puzzles/incompleteness in written matter, eg: the
intended leftward/rightward semirange of an "and/or" or hyphenation function;
the intended antecedent of a parenthesized expression, or of a pleural or
possessive ending of a word, or the intended antecedent of a word or other
syntax portion that suggests the presence of a pertinent antecedent (eg such
"procedents" as viz, ergo, eg, ie, therefore, whereby, wherefore, whereas,
thus, or, and, but, so, such as, for example), or the intended procedents of
antecedents, eg the intended procedents of the above procedents serving as
antecedents; the intended leftward range of a comma; what word(s) a modifier,
such as an adjective or adverb (eg two nouns separated by an "and" and
preceded by an adjective, which may or may not be intended to modify the
second noun); the intended grouping of words intended to function as a group;
an intended syntactical step in a sentence, or an intended substep within
such a step (eg steps of various orders); an improper/desperate use of a
comma.
A typical reason for the presence of such
ambiguities/incompleteness/imprecision in written matter is often one or more
unnecessary limitations imposed by typical antiquated syntactical methods, eg
the difficulty or apparent impossibility of obtaining greater
clarity/precision/depth without substantial loss of compactness eg
conciseness/succinctness, eg to make written matter clear/thorough it
sometimes has to become quite lengthy/ponderous/cumbersome, utilizing only
conventional syntactical techniques, such as using typical punctuation
marks/optimally selecting words and their best order. This unnecessarily
limits the practicality/efficiency/potency eg multidimensionality of written
matter. There is also a need for efficiently, eg compactly, indicating a
desired repetition of a selected syntax portion.
My improved system of writing is not, of course, purported to be perfect, nor
to be a method of speedwriting eg shorthand, but nevertheless offers various,
apparently novel, syntactical-in-a-broad-sense techniques that address, and
appear to substantially satisfy, the fairly-obvious longstanding widespread
need for improved syntactical methods/tools for facilitating more efficient,
practical, potent, compact, improved written matter eg a
system/protocol/syntactical toolbox for substantially reducing the
above-mentioned limitations of conventional antiquated syntactical
techniques. To receive additional information on the recently improved
system, please write; please send your letter requesting such additional
information, and enclosing your check for ninety-seven dollars (U.S. $97.00)
to cover handling and mailing costs, to Mark Schuman; 101 G Street S.W. #516;
Washington, D.C. 20024. Thank you. If, in your future readings, you look for
and note the occasional such deficiencies, you may be surprised at their
frequency of occurrence. Also, my improved system of writing tends to compact
written matter in general, eg even when inefficient use of typographical
space appears to be the only deficiency. If you wish more information, please
see above in this paragraph, and acknowledge receipt of all info.
The recently improved system utilizes a moderate number of symbols
inter-/intrameshed with words, and coding; it appears to be novel, practical,
and useful, and should facilitate improved written-matter-in-a-broad-sense.
For more info, please see the preceding paragraph. Generally, especially if
not all of the available features of the new system are selected, most words
should no such symbol on or next to ^it^.
--Copyright (C) 1995 Mark Schuman
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 18:38:22 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kenneth Goldsmith <kgolds@PANIX.COM>
Subject: John Cage WWW Site Under Construction
I am creating a John Cage WWW Site on our WFMU server. To my knowledge,
there is no Cage homepage/resource currently on the net. I am soliciting
material for the page: ascii, html-tagged docs, BBedit docs, jpegs, gifs,
etc. relating to John Cage, his life, his work, those who worked with
him, etc. At this point, I am only looking for text & visuals--later we
can add audio clips. The site is well traveled and I would like to
include as many related links as possible. Things are just under
construction now but we should have the site up and running by
the end of the summer. Thanks in advance for your interest. Please
forward this message to those who might be interested.
Kenneth Goldsmith
kgolds@panix.com
kennyg@wfmu.org
check out WFMU's homepage: http://wfmu.org
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 17:52:42 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: name calling
In message <950612094046_68995951@aol.com> UB Poetics discussion group writes:
> Chris S.
> What do you wish would happen on this list?
>
> Marisa J.
> What do you wish would happen on this list?
>
> Maria D.
> What do you wish would happen on this list?
>
> Kenny G.
> What do you wish would happen on this list?
>
> Lisa J.
> What do you wish would happen on this list?
>
> Sheila E.
> What do you wish would happen on this list?
>
> Curious
> Jordan
do you really wanna know? there are many answers to that question. i want the
list to provide me with an exciting social life. I want the list to provide me
with an exciting intellectual life. i want the list to provide me with a
network of likeminded folks all over the world so that i have at least one
kindred spirit in every port. i want someone to offer me a great job. i want
the euphoric bliss of the ages. secrets of the universe. a great relationship.
instant talent and smartness. uninhibited creativity that finds its perfect
expression every time, movement into space with untrammeled decency clarity and
adventure.
on a more pedestrian level, i want to learn how to read some of the newer work
that intimidates me. i like the energy i feel from it, but feel inadequate
sometimes to interact with it (let alone to teach it, though one of my fantasies
is also to one day not have to teach). i want opportunities to meet, help and
be helped by, others who are in touch with the spirit of poesie. basically, i
guess you could say i want community. did you mean by the question, what
content do i want to see? let me think about that and get back to you later.
--maria d
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 20:21:32 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Loss Glazier <lolpoet@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Re: John Cage WWW Site Under Construction
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950612182652.17064A-100000@panix.com> from
"Kenneth Goldsmith" at Jun 12, 95 06:38:22 pm
Kenneth,
Please post the Cage URL to this list when it is up or even partially
up so that we may link to it from the EPC.
Loss
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 21:55:48 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: John Cayley <cayley@SHADOOF.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Golf was invented in China
Could someone re-post this to one of those *huge* PoMo lists or newsgroups.
I guess this will qualify as the world's greatest simulacrum:
>[CND, 06/11/95] BEIJING -- Chang'an, the capital of the Tang dynasty and
>the start of the famous ancient Silk Route is to be re-built to attract more
>visitors, Reuter reported. The city will preserve traditional Chinese city
>design such as gates, watchtowers and terraces. No construction date or
>cost were revealed, however, it will be the world's biggest replica
>metropolis. Chang'an is located near Xi'an, capital of Shaanxi province
>in central China. (Kun Wang, Jian LIU)
-----------
John Cayley Wellsweep Press [in Chinese HZ: ~{?-U\02~} ~{=[i@3v0fIg~}]
PERMANENT ADDRESS: 1 Grove End House 150 Highgate Road London NW5 1PD UK
Tel & Fax: 0171-267 3525 Email: cayley@shadoof.demon.co.uk
TEMPORARY FROM 17 MAY TO 5 AUG 1995:
St Leonards Island PO Box 62 Port Carling Ont. P0B 1J0 Canada
Tel & Fax (705) 769 3598 Email: cayley@inforamp.net
SUMMER 1995 URL: http://www.inforamp.net/~cayley
-----------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 19:45:34 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steve Carll <sjcarll@SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: name calling
What about me, Jordan?
Just kidding. Don't let anybody shut you down by pretending that "we've
answered all these questions before," because the fact is, often we haven't
really answered the question, only finessed it into a question we *can*
answer; and even with the questions we do answer, the whole world changes
underneath and leaves the answer looking embarrassed and the question
needing to be paid attention to anew.
I *wish* eternal inner (and outer) PEACE would break out on this list, but
I'd settle for many intelligent, inspired people feeling free to communicate
with each other about what concerns them and about what provokes thought and
feeling.
Steve
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 19:45:41 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steve Carll <sjcarll@SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: The Unbearables/letter from a young poet
>Rilke:
>Okay, I'm off it. Now, tell me (without cribbing from Zukofsky) what are the
>minimum and the maximum bounds on a poem? What does a poem have to do to be a
>good poem?
Just blow my mind, baby; just blow my fucking mind.
Steve (live well die when you're damn good and ready) Carll
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 21:38:04 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Sheila E. Murphy" <semurphy@INDIRECT.COM>
Subject: Re: name calling
I'm grateful for the question: "What do you wish would happen on this
list?" which of course engenders potential sheepishness, as anything I wish
that I've not already tried to make happen volleys right back in the form of
"Why NOT" - What, after all, could stop desire except a) Lethargy b) Guilt
c) Fear d) Lack of Imagination e) Many More Unnamables I'd Just As Soon Not
Seep Into My Body's Brain.
(Ah, denial!)
Maria does a nice job of kicking off an answer. Community's a nice start.
One thing I'll admit, having been asked this open thing: I have for many
years relished my correspondence with several individuals who have become
close through the medium of letters. That kind of thing can happen (the
one-to-one) electronically, and does. In SOME, certainly not all,
instances, the billboard motif of the list is difficult, as private
relationships have their own subtlety and craft themselves of a privacy that
is itself delicious beyond what group things usually do for me.
And yet, with that, the list offers DIFFERENT things. It was a good
vicarious experience to hear many views of the Blaser conference. Perhaps
just good to know that it existed and brought so much dazzlement and warmth
to so many people, who held and projected what had happened for them. In
this way, the list is BETTER THAN private correspondence. So, more of that.
What I'd like to see MORE OF is the sharing of new work via the list. Maybe
group creations.
Yet maybe I don't. You'll notice that I haven't started either one of these
myself. Why not?
One thing I definitely like are QUESTIONS that bring up issues that people
want to whiffle around. It's nice to listen (not to deny the eyes) and to
toss in something when it is possible to think back.
Are you sorry you asked (me)? But it's good to be asked.
Sheila E.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 01:08:03 -40962758
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jim Rosenberg <jr@AMANUE.PGH.NET>
Subject: Re: John Cage WWW Site Under Construction
Kenneth Goldsmith:
> To my knowledge,
> there is no Cage homepage/resource currently on the net.
This is incorrect. There is a John Cage Internet mailing list maintained by
Joeseph Zitt, who also hosts a Cage home page. His URL is:
http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/
The Cage home page hangs somewhere off of his home page. I believe the
correct E-mail address to subscribe to the E-mail list is:
majordomo@bga.com
with the line
subscribe silence
--
Jim Rosenberg http://www.well.com/user/jer/
CIS: 71515,124
WELL: jer
Internet: jr@amanue.pgh.net
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 09:27:43 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jordan Davis." <Jordan70@AOL.COM>
Subject: everywhere and nowhere
Maria, Steve, and Sheila,
Thanks. It made me happy to read what you wanted to happen. It does seem like
there is a common (strong) interest in radical poetries among the readers of
this list. Maria, I'd like to get some energy for/a way into reading newer
work, too. For instance, could somebody discuss the ideological distinction
between writing in Poetic Briefs/Situation and writing in Apex/Chain? (Maybe
we've all heard enough about that. How about someone offering a brief
introduction to the work of Mark Wallace, or Chris Stroffolino, or Kristin
Prevallet?) Could somebody say something about the work by younger poets in
New York that claims to be "against form"?
Some people have been posting poems from time to time--reading back through
the monthly journals I found poems by Bill Luoma, Charles Alexander, Alan
Sondheim and others. It seemed to me like a pretty good (i.e. friendly) way
to publish.
And how about collaborative works through this list? Maybe a MUD or a MOO or
an IRC, some real-time area, would be a better place to write as a group. I
don't quite know how those areas work, though. Maybe Chris Funkhouser can
explain a little?
Chris F.,
What do you wish would happen on this list?
Dodie B.,
What do you wish would happen on this list?
Charles B.,
What do you wish would happen on this list?
Tan L.,
What do you wish would happen on this list?
Carla B.,
What do you wish would happen on this list?
Interested and listening,
Jordan
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 08:32:11 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: name calling
In message <199506130245.TAA21460@slip-1.slip.net> UB Poetics discussion group
writes:
> What about me, Jordan?
>
> Just kidding. Don't let anybody shut you down by pretending that "we've
> answered all these questions before," because the fact is, often we haven't
> really answered the question, only finessed it into a question we *can*
> answer; and even with the questions we do answer, the whole world changes
> underneath and leaves the answer looking embarrassed and the question
> needing to be paid attention to anew.
>
> I *wish* eternal inner (and outer) PEACE would break out on this list, but
> I'd settle for many intelligent, inspired people feeling free to communicate
> with each other about what concerns them and about what provokes thought and
> feeling.
>
> Steve
the nature of this msg makes me wonder: jordan davis, why dd you ask me (imagine
italics on that final syllable)? have i indicated discontent? --maria d
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 11:13:48 -0400
Reply-To: Robert Drake <au462@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Robert Drake <au462@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: everywhere and nowhere
>For instance, could somebody discuss the ideological distinction
>between writing in Poetic Briefs/Situation and writing in Apex/Chain? (Maybe
>we've all heard enough about that. How about someone offering a brief
>introduction to the work of Mark Wallace, or Chris Stroffolino, or Kristin
>Prevallet?
jordan--
i'd very much recommend Mark Wallace's piece "On the Lyric as
Experimental Possibility" which appeared in the latest WITZ (spring
'95; 10604 Wguooke St,m Toluca Lake CA 91602; creiner@crl.com)
as a piece of that puzzle... praps mark or chris reiner (WITZ
editor) would be willing to post it, here or at the epc...
luigi
TRR/Burning Press
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 09:45:40 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Christopher Reiner <creiner@CRL.COM>
Subject: Re: everywhere and nowhere
Comments: To: Robert Drake <au462@cleveland.freenet.edu>
In-Reply-To: <199506131513.LAA26689@eeyore.INS.CWRU.Edu>
On Tue, 13 Jun 1995, Robert Drake wrote:
> jordan--
>
> i'd very much recommend Mark Wallace's piece "On the Lyric as
> Experimental Possibility" which appeared in the latest WITZ (spring
> '95; 10604 Wguooke St,m Toluca Lake CA 91602; creiner@crl.com)
> as a piece of that puzzle... praps mark or chris reiner (WITZ
> editor) would be willing to post it, here or at the epc...
>
> luigi
> TRR/Burning Press
I'm a little behind in uploading issues to the epc, but if anyone wants a
paper copy of the new Witz, just send me a 55-cent stamp to cover the
postage. The address is
Witz
10604 Whipple Street
Toluca Lake, CA 91602
I'm also interested in responses to Mark Wallace's piece.
--Chris Reiner
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 16:24:25 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jordan Davis." <Jordan70@AOL.COM>
Subject: singling
Maria Damon wrote:
the nature of this msg makes me wonder: jordan davis, why dd you ask me
(imagine
italics on that final syllable)? have i indicated discontent? --maria d
Not at all! I was just curious what you would wish.
Jordan
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 09:01:18 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: name calling
Dear Jordan,
I'd like to see the power of the practice of poetics (in any/all
"discourse(s)") demonstrated everywhere. The hope I have of any
institution (this list included) is that it'll work to that end.
Although collab on poems is a nice thought (a why-not), how about
(collaborating on) ways of making poetics
effective as a way of intervening in all the sites
where the arts can be practised, from the obvious of poetry
publication to all aspects of the academy and the media.
There is an old question lurking here: Does poetry or does poetry
not (in the maybe subtle and maybe long-term sense) change the
world"? Isn't the pen mightier than the sword? (esp.
when "the darkness surrounds us"?).
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 18:32:22 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Lindz Williamson <lmichell@UNIXG.UBC.CA>
Subject: MEMORABILIA
In-Reply-To: <MAILQUEUE-101.950614090118.288@ccnov2.auckland.ac.nz>
We, the self-proclaimed editors, Nicole Critten and Lindsey (LINDZ)
Williamson wish to welcome you to the first, and definately not the last,
CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS TO MEMORABILIA..
For those who write, we offer the opportunity to be published,
along with other local writers (Vancouver, lowermainland, B.C.), in an
uncensored forum that is circulated in outlets chosen to provide you with
excellent public exposure.
For those who read, we wish to provide you with a window into the
writing of fresh local talent and encourage your particpation in, and feed
back on, what you discover in our pages.
Each issue will be loosely based around a theme of importance,
such as a time, mood, or place. However, we offer a theme only as a rough
creative outline for each issue and encourage any form of expression or
response. Memorabilia is a paper with an ecclectic spirit so do not feel
limited or inhibited: if it's art, we want to see it!
CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS:
THE SECOND ISSUE OF
MEMORABILIA
Lies and confessions-childhood, marital, professional, religious, little
white lies to cover your ass, big white lies to cover your ass-we ask for
all forms of creative expression on this theme by July 10, 1995. We
remind you that space is limited so keep all pieces short. Please send a
self-addressed-stamped-envelope and $5.00 for each previously unpublished
submission to help us cover our costs. Only submissions received by mail
will be accepted. We regret that we can't publish everyone, but we will
send everyone the edition they applied to appear in. Please note also
that you waive all publication rights upon sending us your work. If you
have any questions or wish to order a subscription (Issue One is
available, featuring Ryan Knighton and Reg Johanson) feel free to write or
e-mail us at critten@unixg.ubc.ca. Send submissions to:
MEMORABILIA
3675 W 3rd Ave
Vancouver, B.C.
V6R 1M1
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 01:39:44 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Marisa A Januzzi <jma5@COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: Re: name calling
In-Reply-To: <MAILQUEUE-101.950614090118.288@ccnov2.auckland.ac.nz>
Jordan: well, like everybody, I want to see my name in lights,
so thanks! How disarming it is to be "called." Suddenly I was playing
the third quarter of a game there and a pompom seemed to rustle.
I absolutely second "what Maria said." And what Jordan said, too:
one of the reasons I'm here is for as warm a hand-in as possible to the
aesthetics of the very very new. And people on this list have in fact
pushed me to read things I wouldn't have had the incentive to read
otherwise, like that whole damn double O-Blek (you know who y'all are)
and also Rilke, lately, and Jordan Davis in something called Arris.
My test of a new poem is pretty pedestrian: the first thing I
usually check, is: what is the poet's relation to language, and does s/he
seem to have bought into some obnoxious idea about how it ought to
circulate or not? Admittedly, I often miss out on stuff that has a
certain 'finish' to it, even if it's actually smart (for instance, I'm
still struggling past Merrill's veneer)... I'd be curious to hear about
poets people on this list have reconsidered at one point or another, and
why.
I'd also like to see more from Tony Green and anyone else on the
"power of the practice of poetics"-- Tony: what do you mean by 'power,'
and what by 'practice'? (anecdotes, please!)
Three things on my mind lately: finishing this l-o-n-g Mina Loy
bibliography, the dynamics of literary revivals, and Salt Lake City.
It would be an act of charity if anyone on the list can tell me
(backchannel) what's going on with poetry, Salt Lake City, and the
University of Utah... someone mentioned Utah once, and I meant to be all
over the reference but wasn't. I am moving and I'm grateful you people
will all seem to be in the same 'place.'
Bye for now--- Marisa
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 00:02:26 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM>
Subject: Re: John Cage WWW Site Under Construction
Kenneth -
Don't stop working on your Cage website, but you should know that there are
a few more than the one by Joseph Zitt that Jim Rosenberg gave the URL for
earlier. I'm not sure, but by now there may be links to these from this
web site.
One is part of the New Albion Records site. They have a page for each of
their artists and their Cage website includes a long autobiographical text
& a very good discography of Cage's recordings. For a commercial venture
this site is quite low key and is very informative about the various
composers and performers who have recordings on New Albion.
<http://newalbion.com>
Another web site on Cage probably isn't permanent. It's from the
Philadelphia Museum of Art where the traveling exhibition <Roly Holy Over>
(which I'm sure I spelled wrong) is currently being shown. The last time I
checked this one was kind of rudimentary as far as information goes, but
has a few nice examples of scores and other graphic works from the
exhibition.
<http://www.libertynet.org/~cage/index.html>
There's a page with a lot of links to Cage references of various sorts
(some are pretty minor indeed) at
<http://www.emf.net/~mal/cage.html>
Bests,
Herb Levy
herb@eskimo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 10:50:26 BST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "R.I.Caddel @ durham.ac.uk" <R.I.Caddel@DURHAM.AC.UK>
Subject: What is this list for?
In-Reply-To: <199506140509.GAA12624@tucana.dur.ac.uk>
I'm amazed how often this topic crops up when self-evidently the
purpose of the list shifts and veers as topics come and go. "Out here"
in a fairly isolated situation I DO relish the contact which it
brings, and the simple billboard function, which I'd like to see more
of. I'd like more:
- conference reviews
- poetry reading reviews
- mag & chapbook reviews
- "rediscovered texts" reviews
- where "review" is a few lines, rather than full academic discourse!
- "Keep it short, boys!" - Val Raworth, preface to a Harwood/Raworth
poetry reading.
Of course, I like some of the "abstruser musings" too, and when I
don't, technology provides me with the solution (delete key). But I do
agree that the list isn't the place where personal identities come
over, or where personal messages are appropriate - backchannels are
the place for that. Indeed, backchanneling contact has for me been one
of the most directly useful products of this list.
If it's any help, Poetics list readers may like to know that UK
librarians have the same soul-searching about the "function" of their
e-mail lists - and a lot of them end up talking about the "need to
police the internet" and so forth. And that some initial linguistic
research (I'm sorry, I don't have the reference) suggest that folk are
much more likely to be rude, as in abusive, in e-mail correspondence,
than in letters or face-to-face. On which note:
Footnote: I dumped the Hole/Love exchanges down to a rock musician I
know, who said, (on the phone) Dad, WHY are you reading this blairite*
fanzine crap?
*blair'ite: n. & adj. Squishy socialist; of or pertaining to the
chattering classes.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
x x
x Richard Caddel, E-mail: R.I.Caddel @ durham.ac.uk x
x Durham University Library, Phone: 0191 374 3044 x
x Stockton Rd. Durham DH1 3LY Fax: 0191 374 7481 x
x x
x "Words! Pens are too light. Take a chisel to write." x
x - Basil Bunting x
x x
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 09:37:07 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@ALBNYVMS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: What is this list for?
thank you Ric Caddel for the adjective "blair'ite"---Is this then
a "blairite" message? That thanks you for the lamnguage with which
it can condemn itself? I mean language. Mean language. Squishy
socialist--yes backchannel----In America, very little gets done
on the FLOORS of congress---if you only knew the dealing that goes
on in the back of the store---- chris
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 09:42:54 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: name calling
Re.: Power and practice of poets. Are indeed poets the legislators of
the world? I don't know, but I do believe that poetry soars, while
politics snores. Down with the utilitarian, Tony Green!!
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 09:47:57 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: What is this list for?
I can't say how happy I am to read Richard Caddel's wonderfully candid
remarks about how this list ought to function. New to this list myself,
I have bit my tongue--and glad I did because I would have called for
something perhaps too prescriptive. Yet I must say that my heart in hiding
stirs for Mr. Caddel's words. BACKCHANNEL IS A GOOD THING, otherwise the
list becomes too cumbersome. No?
Burt Kimmelman
kimmelman@admin.njit.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 10:08:33 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jordan Davis." <Jordan70@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: What is this list for?
Richard Caddell writes:
I'm amazed how often this topic crops up when self-evidently the
purpose of the list shifts and veers as topics come and go.
Well... sort of. Then later, he writes:
If it's any help, Poetics list readers may like to know that UK
librarians have the same soul-searching about the "function" of their
e-mail lists - and a lot of them end up talking about the "need to
police the internet" and so forth.
Richard,
I wasn't thinking about limiting the functions of this list. I was hoping
people would say what they wanted to see--more like market research than the
star chamber (maybe they're not the same thing!).
Poetics,
What "general" magazines do you read? ("General"=high circulation
quasi-literary)
Love,
Jordan
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 10:08:43 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: Re: What is this list for?
Richard Caddel wrote:
>But I do agree that the list isn't the place where personal identities come
>over .....
God forgive that our personal identies arise when discussing writing! Beat
the personal out of writing/reading with a stick, right? Keep that writing
in its analytical cage, boys!
Dodie Bellamy
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 12:07:32 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: What is this list for?
>
> Poetics,
> What "general" magazines do you read? ("General"=high circulation
> quasi-literary)
>
> Love,
> Jordan
Jordan, i welcome your questions as inviting interaction, much like the "what
everybody's reading" q a few months ago. it never crossed my mind that you were
trying to police the internet. As for journals etc., i (try to) read Public
Culture, Diaspora, and occasionally Cultural Anthropology. I have no
subscriptions to "literary" periodicals except pmla (which hardly qualifies) but
do i read it? nahhh --except for the professional notes and comments at the
end. kkillian has sent me a coupla back issues of Mirage, and Gary Sullivan
lent me some stuff like grand central. i just picked up the "IT's the Jews!"
issue of Long Shot, which I find quite wonderful (esp the cover photo). i was
on the editorial board of Signs, that academic feminist journal, for about a
year (very demystifying). I've got a coupla issues of Chain that i've lent out
to students and colleagues cuz they seem so apropos their work.
best--maria
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 12:01:48 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Loss Glazier <lolpoet@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Re: What is this list for?
In-Reply-To: <emu-ct08.1995.0614.095027.dul0ric@venus.dur.ac.uk> from
"R.I.Caddel @ durham.ac.uk" at Jun 14, 95 10:50:26 am
> If it's any help, Poetics list readers may like to know that UK
> librarians have the same soul-searching about the "function" of their
> e-mail lists - and a lot of them end up talking about the "need to
> police the internet" and so forth.
A note on this is that the current U.S. debate is called (I'm not
making this up) the "jeans vs tux" paradigms of the Intenet. The
former being wild and unrestrained; the latter being formal,
controlled, and regulated. There _is_ some possibility that all we are
doing here may be over in a flash (a la the sixties) because the tux
forces are not inconsequential in influence and power. It's a curious
predicament, possibly deadly, but maybe not so curious if you think
that in the US, all media is strictly regulated...
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 10:56:50 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: List fantasies
Jordan Davis write:
>Dodie B.,
>What do you wish would happen on this list?
Frankly, I don't have an agenda, even an imaginary one, for this list. I'd
like it if more women wrote in, because there's certainly enough amazing,
smart, opinionated women signed up on the list.
Let's do some retro-feminist thinking about this, sort of a stroll down
memory lane, and think about why more women don't post to this list. Two
reasons come to mind. The first one is kind of French--I think a lot of
the gals out there are happy wallowing around in their jouissance, and
really aren't drawn to partake in a lot of the abstract b.s. that goes on
here. Who can blame them--it's hard to get all that motivated about the
poetics listserv to cease and subvert it--most of the women on this list
*do* have a life.
Secondly, there are those old monster feelings of invalidation. I remember
reading a very painful essay by a young female poet in which she talked
about her fear of speaking, of expressing her opinions--without the
slightest suggestion that this was an issue bigger than her personal
psychology. (Did somebody flush the seventies down the toilet? Gloria
Steinam where are you!) I wanted to put my arm around her shoulder and
say, "Honey, you're not alone." Actually, I think there are a lot of
sensitive guys out there who share similar insecurities. Around the time I
read this woman's essay I was writing a long article on religious cults
(which will finally be published June 22 in the San Diego Reader--S. CA
campers, check it out!). I fantasized my own feminist New Age Movement,
the motto of which would be WHO GIVES A SHIT. It's easy. You think, "Blah
Blah will think I'm stupid if I say that." What do you say to yourself?
"Who gives a shit!" It works in all social situations, not just in poetics
discussions. Remember: Blah Blah must be saying "Who gives a shit" to
himself all the time or he wouldn't be throwing out his inane opinions as
if they were the god's truth.
I hope none of you think I'm silly and stupid and small and ugly for
writing this. Who gives a shit!
Dodie Bellamy
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 12:23:10 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ryan Knighton <knighton@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: What is this list for?
In-Reply-To: <199506141601.MAA15775@autarch.acsu.buffalo.edu> from "Loss
Glazier" at Jun 14, 95 12:01:48 pm
electrically each come and go
talking of
till human voices wake us
and drown
(make no mistake, this iis a love song)
ryan
=========================================================================