=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 1995 01:07:38 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rod Smith <AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: George & Ludwig
Gabrielle Welford wrote: "Did Oppen read Wittgenstein?"
My impression is that Oppen was more affected by Heidegger & checking the
Selected Letters that seems to be confirmed. Wittgenstein is cited a number
of times, often in connection with Zukofsky, he even refers to Zukofsky as
"playacting Wittgenstein" and refers to _Bottom_ as "replete with
Wittgenstein". However there's an interesting reply to a letter from Duncan
in '75 in which he says "You were saying the recent poems are
incomprehensible ? I don't really think so. And was not thinking of that
which cannot be said in language-- of that indeed silent however unwillingly.
I was confused by the entry of Wittgenstein--". Apparently Duncan found the
recent work which wld've been _Seascape: Needle's Eye_ & I guess, _Myth of
the Blaze_ (which I think is his best, that work has been very important to
me personally), "incomprehensible" but mentioned Wittgenstein which seems to
me astute. It sounds, however that he was thinking of the _Tractatus_, but I
think the later Wittgenstein more accurate. In a footnote Oppen says "But I
thought that I was simply pointing to things. . ." & I think he was, & I
think you were when you made that connection. There may be others on the list
who know more about this Witt/Op/Dun thing?
--Rod
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 1995 01:21:05 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rod Smith <AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: 20th century poetics and child poetry
Just a bit of information on this, Harryman's _the Words_ (part of which has
been an Abacus) is her "rewrite" of Sandburg's _Rootabaga Stories_. David
Shapiro's done a lot of great work with kids, maybe he inspired Padgett? so
the story goes. . . & w/ his son there's some terrific stuff he includes in
his most recent book _After a Lost Original_ . Half of the vocabulary of that
thing of mine in _o blek 12_ came from a 1932 edition of _Mother Goose_.
Let's all go out & play.
--Rod
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 22:24:41 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Marjorie Perloff <perloff@LELAND.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 13 Jul 1995 to 14 Jul 1995
In-Reply-To: <199507150403.VAA05921@leland.Stanford.EDU>
Thank you, Joseph Zitt, for the nice plug. RADICAL ARTIFICE is indeed in
print --in fact in paperback, out a few months ago, should be readily
available @$16.95. And Dance of the Intellect is being reissued by North-
western which did Poetics of Indterminacy and which is doing Hank Lazer's
new collection as well as Bruce Andrews's essays. Northwestern has an
enlightened editor of the new avant-garde series named Rainer Rumold, dept
of German & comp lit, as well as Susan Harris, editor, who is terrific.
They will be putting out some interesting things.
A query: does anyone know anything about the English poet Glyn Maxwell?
He is the guy who wrote the snidest review I've ever seen of Bernstein,
Linda Reinfeld, Anthony Easthope, Steve McCaffery etc. for Times Lit
Supplement --mixing these people in with Larkin etc. in a meaningless
hodgepodge. What are Maxwell's own poems like? I've only seen one or
two but gather in England he's very much "admired" by the Establishment.
I ask because I am doing a talk on the relation of literary journalism (is
there any?) and lit crit and am planning to say, among other things, that
this Buffalo net contains more useful material than the "lit journalism"
outlets, at least so far as poetry is concerned. But it wasn't always so:
have been reading very old New York Times Book Reviews and in 1904 or so
there were actually good long reviews of Paul Dunbar among others!
Marjorie Perloff
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 1995 07:57:50 EDT
Reply-To: beard@metdp1.met.co.nz
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: beard@MET.CO.NZ
Subject: Soul
Regarding use of the word "soul", I agree with Brian:
>i still cannot
>find anything in these words that does not bring back the ol' immaterialism,
>irrationalism...
Words like "soul" and "spirit" seem to be too weighed down with mystical
baggage to be useful in any other context, such as discussing whether poetry
comes from one's "soul" or "experience". A human personality is shaped by what
one experiences through one's senses, perhaps by physical actions upon the
brain, and by one's genetic material. To say that poetry can come from one's
"soul" without experience is nonsensical - in order to write a poem, one must
have language, which implies the experience of learning that language, which
inevitably shapes the poem.
> religion's replacements, science and money, don't
> want anything to do with such notions because discussion along spiritual
> lines points up the poverty of science and money with regard to the soul.
I'd contend that, rather than "point[ing] up the poverty of science ... with
regard to the soul", "discussion along spiritual lines" shows itself as vapid
and superfluous, lacking in explanatory value. That is, if you take "soul" and
"spirit" to signify some essence of the self that can exist independently of
a material body. If, however, you take it to mean that "part" or "faculty" of
our mental processes that "feels" rather than thinks, then some phrase such as
"the emotions" could substitute for "the soul". This concept is perhaps too
close to the romantic conception of "the heart" for my liking, and phrases such
as "this poem comes from the heart" are all too often a code for "watch out,
tedious uncritical sentimental outburst coming up".
I prefer to use the word "mind". I'm not sure that we can readily make useful
distinctions between the part of us that thinks and the part of us that feels -
thinking and feeling may be part of the same process. What I hope for in poetry
is a tender logic, a rational passion.
Tom.
______________________________________________________________________________
I/am a background/process, shrunk to an icon. | Tom Beard
I am/a dark place. | beard@metdp1.met.co.nz
I am less/than the sum of my parts... | Auckland, New Zealand
I am necessary/but not sufficient, | http://metcon.met.co.nz/
and I shall teach the stars to fall | nwfc/beard/www/hallway.html
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 1995 08:08:20 EDT
Reply-To: beard@metdp1.met.co.nz
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: beard@MET.CO.NZ
Subject: Glynn Maxwell
>A query: does anyone know anything about the English poet Glyn Maxwell?
>He is the guy who wrote the snidest review I've ever seen of Bernstein,
>Linda Reinfeld, Anthony Easthope, Steve McCaffery etc. for Times Lit
>Supplement --mixing these people in with Larkin etc. in a meaningless
>hodgepodge. What are Maxwell's own poems like? I've only seen one or
>two but gather in England he's very much "admired" by the Establishment.
Marjorie,
I bought one of his books ("The Mayor's Son", I think) a year or so
ago, and read it no more than once. I guess that says something about my
impression of his work. From what I remember, it was quite formal (a lot of
end-rhymes) and vaguely satirical. Probably quite clever, but forgettable. I
might be able to look up his book tomorrow to see if that refreshes my memory.
If you want to see a snide review, take a look at Jane Stafford's review of
Michele Leggott and Murray Edmond in NZ Books. Unbelievable.
Tom Beard.
______________________________________________________________________________
I/am a background/process, shrunk to an icon. | Tom Beard
I am/a dark place. | beard@metdp1.met.co.nz
I am less/than the sum of my parts... | Auckland, New Zealand
I am necessary/but not sufficient, | http://metcon.met.co.nz/
and I shall teach the stars to fall | nwfc/beard/www/hallway.html
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 1995 04:19:03 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: 20th century poetics and child poetry
Ira,
You are right on target with your comments on Carla Harryman's work.
Carla has spoken of P.D. Eastman's Go Dog, Go, as her "most
influential" book, and only half tongue in cheek. In a similar manner,
Margaret Wise Brown (Runaway Bunny, Goodnight Moon) clearly thought
herself influenced by Gertrude Stein (though her sense of the stanza
more often reminds me of the very early Robert Duncan (cf. the old City
Lights edition of the Selected Poems, pre-Opening of the Field).
Ron Silliman
rsillima@ix.netcom.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 1995 04:35:25 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: child poets
>On Fri, 14 Jul 1995, Charles Alexander wrote: exhibitions this year is
a children's book art exhibition, and one staff members wanted to
exclude the children from being counted as artists. I think that is NOT
a good idea.
>>
>I do I do agree.
>
>Gab.
>
Me too. At the big Cage exhibit at the Philadelphia Art Museum is a
"compose your own Cage score" computer program, basically a point and
click mouse and computer screen deal, with textual quotes from Cage on
screen, snippets of his works, that of others (Morton Feldman fits very
nicely in), excerpts from interviews, readings, etc. One of my
three-year-old twins got to the mouse and had about a half dozen adults
wearing headphones all nodding in total appreciation for about 10
minutes. His instincts were absolutely equal to the task.
Ron
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 1995 12:32:24 +0000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: cris cheek <cris@SLANG.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Glyn Maxwell
Maxwell is certainly one of a number of 'star' poets currently being built
up by the Brit Lit Establishment. Anybody hear of the 'New Gen' Poets from
'94 - a joint puiblishers and Poetry Society opinion-forming media binge?
Here's a bit of Maxwell, speaking for himself in a selection of 'poetry &
the gulf war' from Poetry Review in '92. He's talked of sometimes as a poet
whose work signals the arrival (read as acceptable manifestation) of
'post-modernism' in British Poetry! He cites Bob Dylan as his major
influence. The Poem's called 'Queen of Mice' and I'll quote a short section
from a 'competition-tailored' 42 odd line length - I really can't be
bothered to read him or count them that closely, sorry he's got a vacuous
affected prosody that bores the ^ out of me so much so that I've a appended
a quick remix:-
'... hands in pouches, disabused, in the wind,
nor are they shocked who hurt and putt in the distance,
beam or denounce or hurry across this carpet.
There is nothing up with the black mice in their normal
crannies of the 'Mice and Queen', smoking
Embassies, and futures spring to mind
as digits dance ahead and the Old Quarter
of Babylad goes 'boom boom' at the point of a gag.
There is nothing up with the dots that are not to blame.
There is nothing up with the fleeing illiterate
fauna and the fires you might see
are not burning. The jails are calm as hell. . .'
hands in - a disabused wind
shocked into distance
beamed across carpet
black crannies of
future springs
mind, dances to the point of gag
nothing up
with burning
calm
love and love
cris
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 1995 11:00:11 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: John Cayley <cayley@SHADOOF.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Leaves from a Book Unbound
Texts generated by active readers of my machine modulated piece, Book
Unbound, can now be read on the world wide web. There are now 'leaves' by
James Waite, myself, Steve Balogh, Jim Rosenberg and Herb Levy. I hope to
receive more from others soon.
To go straight to the leaves, visit:
http://www.inforamp.net/~cayley/inleaves.html
For more information about the context of this work:
http://www.inforamp.net/~cayley/inhome.html
A brief blurb on Book Unbound follows:
BOOK UNBOUND
Indra's Net VI
When you open the book unbound, you will change it. New collocations
of phases generated from its hidden given text - a short piece of prose by
the work's initiator - will be displayed. After the screen fills, you
will be invited to select a phrase from the generated text by clicking
on the first and the last words of a string of language which appeals to
you. Your selections will be collected on the page of this book named
Leaf, where you will be able to copy or edit them as you wish.
They will also become a part of the hidden store of potential collocations
from which the book will go on to generate new text. That is, your
selections will feed back into the process and change it irreversibly.
If you continue reading and selecting over many sessions, your preferred
collocations may eventually come to dominate the process. The work may
then reach a state of chaotic stability, strangely attracted to one
particular modulated reading of its original seed text.
London: Wellsweep & Engaged, May, 1995. ISBN 0 948454 97 0 (disk version).
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 1995 12:24:46 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Edward Foster <EFOSTER@VAXC.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: writing/teaching
oh ya, oh ya, it's back to that passionate teaching stuff, and often it's: this is my classroom AND HAVE I GOT SOMETHING TO TELL YOU! Ya, well, why not just be passionate, period, particularly when it's so godawful hot, and where are you anyway?
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 1995 13:52:20 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steven Howard Shoemaker <ss6r@FERMI.CLAS.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Subject: filtered and unfiltered
In-Reply-To: <199507150402.AAA124339@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU> from "Automatic
digest processor" at Jul 15, 95 00:00:39 am
Gabrielle Welford writes:
"Did Oppen read Wittgenstein?
Gabrielle"
Yes, but Heidegger was much more important to him. In letters, he
often associates Wittgenstein with Zukofsky (esp. Bottom: On
Shakespeare).
steve
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 1995 14:39:01 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Brian W Horihan <hori0001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Soul Train
In-Reply-To: <950714.192339.EDT.JSCHWA@TEMPLEVM>
On Fri, 14 Jul 1995, Judy Schwartz wrote:
> What about music having "soul"? Rhythm, depth from within, and so on. . .
maybe music has "soul" in the sense that neither, as notes or as a word,
refer to anything but music and "soul." (as far as music being
"soulful," that's usu. only applied to blues, gospel, and "soul" music
anyway)
"soul" is the most concrete thing there is, and music is a lot
like concrete poetry. they can only
derive meaning from their contexts--e.g. when a musical work quotes a line
of Strauss or whoever, when "soul" is used in either religious or poetic
discourse. music (i mean the kind w/o words) is all play--so a piece of
christian music (say the new romantic Europeans, Part, Gorecki...) is
only christian in that it refers back to the musical tradition of the
church. This has been a problem for me, justifying my fondness for
certain pieces whose composers I didnt agree with...like people who hate
Orff's music cause of his assoc w/ the Nazis. there's a book called
TOWARDS A SEMIOTICS OF MUSIC or somthing, i forget the author; anyone
read it, found it useful? --brian.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 1995 16:26:20 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steve Carll <sjcarll@SLIP.NET>
Subject: Filet O Soul
So there are untenable meanings (meanings that are given by metaphysical
structures that can be deconstructed) of the word "soul". So many that the
mention of the word itself makes us cringe. But why should this be? Don't
we all as humans have a capacity to undergo experiences that can't be
captured by the physical, can't be captured by the emotional, can't be
captured by the intellectual, inclusive of all these aspects as they may be?
Why not validate such experiences, why not allow a term like "spiritual" to
describe them so we can explore them within language, which is what we have
when we're _not_ undergoing them? Of course, such a term is not "precise".
Ultimately, what term is? But vapid? Superfluous? Lacking in explanatory
value? That depends on how wide your focus is of things to try and explain,
beard. But is it really "explanation" of phenomena that poetry attempts?
Or is it description and an imparting of a special kind of experience of
phenomena?
I do agree that thinking and feeling are quite intertwined, and by the same
token, that body and soul are quite intertwined. I don't think "soul" is
some "part" that can have a word like "the emotions" pinch-signify for it.
It bears, for me, an uncanny resemblence to the "moving empty center"
Charles Borkhuis describes in an essay in _Antenym_ 7 (due out in August), a
non-essentialist essence. It is a little piece of absence around which
presence occurs, and toward which it is drawn, kinda like static cling. And
before one early historical soul-jacking during the period of lamentation
literature, it meant "breath". And if that gives me any authority, I
breathe it all back.
Steve
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 1995 16:29:43 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steve Carll <sjcarll@SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: Soul Train
Hi Brian H:
> "soul" is the most concrete thing there is, and music is a lot
>like concrete poetry. they can only
>derive meaning from their contexts
See, you've made plenty of metaphorical hay out of "soul" :-)
But is there anything that derives meaning from something other than
context? Is there even anything that escapes context so that we could test
this?
Steve
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 08:32:43 JST
Reply-To: nada@twics.com
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: nada@TWICS.COM
Subject: child poetry/juvenilia
I wrote the following poems when I was ten.
Nixon and Agnew
Who would of [sic] thought they would resign
They had been king and queen
Upon the throne of America
The throne had broken beneath their weight
Shall America too
break beneath our weight?
***********************************
Here I sit
in my New York flat
writing ads
for the Zenith power company
my mind wanders to thoughts of
Spain
tap shoes
flourescent-painted
apartments
But I must stay here
in my New York flat
writing ads
for the Zenith power company.
********************************
Cockroaches --
huge but tiny
in the night
they come and eat us
to the marrow of our bones.
Anyone else care to flaunt their juvenilia?
Nada
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 08:34:39 JST
Reply-To: nada@twics.com
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: nada@TWICS.COM
Subject: soul vs. kokoro
There are lots of words that can translate as *soul*
in the Japanese language, but one of them, KOKORO,
also means *heart* and *mind*.
Japanese people, speaking English, tend to point
to their chests when they say *in my mind.*
Whorf, where are you when we need you?
Nada
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 00:14:53 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@ALBNYVMS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Soul Train
the interchangability of terms--
a soul-by shooting, drive food, soul time, drive train...
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 1995 21:35:24 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Marjorie Perloff <perloff@LELAND.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Glyn Maxwell,etc
In-Reply-To: <199507160401.VAA19069@leland.Stanford.EDU>
Thank you Tom Beard, and thanks, Chris Cheek for those marvelous
messages. This is where the net really helps, yes? In the meantime, I
found some of Maxwell's boring poems in the Bloodaxe anthology so I get
the drift. What's interesting is that these "clever" non-poems can get
attention; it shows what a low opinion the critics have of poetry because
the assumption is that it's enough to make a clever joke or two or one
little pun and you've got a fine poem, right?
On Oppen/Wittgenstein/Heidegger: I worked on this while writing my
Wittgenstein book and it's complicated because although Oppen thinks he's
more like Heidegger, his use of language is often much closer to
Wittgenstein's treatment of ordinary language. But not as close as, say,
Creeley is. Still, "Of Being Numerous," for example, is a rather
Wittgensteinian poem as Burt Hatlen pointed out some time ago. Or at
least Witt. can help one read Oppen.
Marjorie Perloff
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 04:38:29 EDT
Reply-To: beard@metdp1.met.co.nz
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: beard@MET.CO.NZ
Subject: Re: Filet O Soul
>Don't
>we all as humans have a capacity to undergo experiences that can't be
>captured by the physical, can't be captured by the emotional, can't be
>captured by the intellectual, inclusive of all these aspects as they may be?
Examples?
If you mean such experiences as falling in love, I'd say this was emotional/
physical. If you mean being struck by the beauty of a landscape or a
mathematical proof, I'd say this was emotional/intellectual. If you mean the
frisson that comes from reading or hearing a poem that moves you, I'd say that
this was all three. I don't see a need to use the word "soul" to describe these
experiences.
If, on the other hand, you mean astral travel, visions of God, spoon bending,
ouija boards and suchlike phenomena, then I am not convinced that such things
exist, except as artefacts of the human nervous system. We could get into an
argument about the existence of paranormal phenomena, but this is not the place
for such a discussion.
>But vapid? Superfluous? Lacking in explanatory
>value? That depends on how wide your focus is of things to try and explain,
>beard. But is it really "explanation" of phenomena that poetry attempts?
>Or is it description and an imparting of a special kind of experience of
>phenomena?
Well, poetry doesn't usually set itself the goal of explanation, but this topic
arose, not _in_ a poem, but in a discussion _about_ poetry, and whether one's
poetry comes from one's poetry or one's experience. In this context, I still
find the word "soul" useless when trying to explain "where" a poem originates.
Even in "description and an imparting of a special kind of experience of
phenomena", I find the word "soul" fairly useless. Phrases such as "I feel it
in my soul" and "You touched my soul" reek of cheap love songs and greeting-
card sentiment. Go on, tell me _how_ you felt it: a lance through the belly, a
tug in the groin, a small fire at the base of the skull.
>It bears, for me, an uncanny resemblence to the "moving empty center"
>Charles Borkhuis describes in an essay in _Antenym_ 7 (due out in August), a
>non-essentialist essence. It is a little piece of absence around which
>presence occurs, and toward which it is drawn, kinda like static cling.
This still seems like some kind of perception to me, a mental process. I still
don't see a need for a word like "soul". I have a mind (or perhaps more
precisely, I am a mind), and I have no difficulty seeing myself as a
neurophysical process. I need no ghost in my machine.
Tom
______________________________________________________________________________
I/am a background/process, shrunk to an icon. | Tom Beard
I am/a dark place. | beard@metdp1.met.co.nz
I am less/than the sum of my parts... | Auckland, New Zealand
I am necessary/but not sufficient, | http://metcon.met.co.nz/
and I shall teach the stars to fall | nwfc/beard/www/hallway.html
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 00:41:26 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Jeff Morley
In-Reply-To: <950714095707_114770270@aol.com> from "Jordan Davis." at Jul 14,
95 09:57:08 am
A few decades ago I edited a collection of Canadian highschool
poets/poems for a bigdeal publisher. Two of the poets turned out to
be writers who got famous, one as a poet, one as a fiction writer. In
the intro I said there was a lot of good stuff.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 00:46:34 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: child poets
In-Reply-To: <0099356F.E9C56480.3690@cpcmg.uea.ac.uk> from "I.LIGHTMAN" at Jul
14, 95 12:43:41 pm
I am having a hard time understanding Ira Lightman's response to my
mentioning of Mina Loy. I would never attack anyone's love of
Niedecker. I have loved her work for 30 years. I didnt say that she
reminds me of Loy. I never introduced the context of gender. All I
said was that Loy was really good at employing the space around
words, and that one who reads Niedecker might have a look at that
too. Lightman also put quotation marks around the words he attributed
to me. I dont get the point of that at all.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 00:51:27 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: child poets
In-Reply-To: <199507140448.VAA11475@slip-1.slip.net> from "Steve Carll" at Jul
13, 95 09:48:47 pm
Thanks to Steve Carll for actually reading what I said about adults
gobbling uyp the creativity in children and labelling them. Let a kid
write a poem: dont tell her she's Emily Dickinson. Have you ever been
an athlete, for instance, who gets called "The Next Pancho Gonzales"
or something? Have you seen parents at Little league games, trying to
make their kids into bonus babies?
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Date: Sat, 15 Jul 1995 21:51:09 -1000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: George & Ludwig
In-Reply-To: <950715010737_33148295@aol.com>
Rod, thanks for the things I didn't know about Duncan too. And I'd say
_Tractatus_ and later stuff are not as opposed as some people make out.
All the stuff of Investigations is there, especially with that final
appeal to silence and mystery. How many people on this list besides me
are enraptured Wittgensteinians? Something about Witt. and what Ira said
about children and language po. Something about a way of searching for
knowledge that is open ended--completely unHeidegger as David Antin
points out in an interview with Spanos. Just reading Ron Padgett's piece
in _Talking Poetics_ Vol.I where he says about one kind of poetry:
"Now there's another kind, where you get in the car with a thousand bucks,
and you just start driving down the street and you don't have any idea
where you're going to go. You come to the corner and you take a left,
right, or straight ahead, unless you want to go backwards, which is a
possibility too. It's much more interesting, it's more exciting. Of
course you can end up running out of gas in the middle of the desert--it
involves all sorts of dangers. But it's wonderful to be able to go to
the typewriter at any given moment; you can wake up in your sleep and
just start writing. And in fact that's really thrilling. I mean lots of
times you write absolute baloney that way, real garbage. But it's
usually more fun, and that's the kind of poetry I prefer writing."
Is this where the politics of lang po comes in? Or should I say, maybe
this could be where the politics of lang po comes in for me--unlearning
the beaten paths of everything. Letting language take me instead of me
taking language. Faith in meaning--Wittgenstein of course.
Gab.
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Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 00:56:57 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: doing the one-two writing/teaching
In-Reply-To: <01HSU2PZEWS2D1INUC@VAXC.STEVENS-TECH.EDU> from "Edward Foster"
at Jul 13, 95 08:52:10 pm
I am having a problem with Ed Foster's line
"you don't teach books, chris, you teach yourself."
a. does that mean that you teach yourself to students rather than
teaching books? Well, I guess that could be interesting for a short
while, but you might wind up teaching your identity to them instead.
b. or does it mean that you teach yourself stuff? Well, that would
come to an end after a while too, because you would run out of stuff
you know.
I wd rather think that you learn from somewhere. So that if you wind
up as someone half as good as, say Spicer, you learn writing from
outside.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 11:59:03 -40962758
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From: Jim Rosenberg <jr@AMANUE.PGH.NET>
Subject: Whorf (vs. Pinker)
nada@TWICS.COM:
> Whorf, where are you when we need you?
Speaking of Whorf, I was pretty amazed by the outright savaging of Whorf in
in Steven Pinker's _The Language Instinct_. I rather liked most of that book,
and I suppose some of his criticisms of Whorf have some bite, but I was
totally taken aback by the vehemence with which Pinker went after Whorf, and
it seems to me that Pinker was guilty of setting up a straw man and then
knocking it down. Basically, Pinker blasted what I would call "the strong
Whorf hypothesis", that thinking occurs in *nothing but* language. He didn't
really touch what is much closer to what Whorf was getting at, it seems to me,
that the language one speaks has *an influence* on how one thinks. I'd be
curious to hear comments from somebody else who's read Pinker's book.
--
Jim Rosenberg http://www.well.com/user/jer/
CIS: 71515,124
WELL: jer
Internet: jr@amanue.pgh.net
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 13:25:45 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rod Smith <AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: George & Ludwig
Gabrielle,
Really, it's all there in the _Tractatus_? I'm not _that_ versed in L.W. but
had thought the more contextual understanding of language games etc. comes
after, late 20s? mid '30s?
Re: "unlearning the beaten paths" -- Hejinian has a great statement on that,
"Once one sought a vocabulary for ideas, now one seeks ideas for
vocabularies." Which points to possibilities, that the ideas are already
extant, within language, within contexts (which interpentrate, a context is
always multiple & in the end not defineable, I'm convinced via me Mahayana
reading (i.e. there are always more factors to be taken into account)) it is
the writer's task (& delight) to find them. So self expression finally a
problematic term? Cage used to always say that ideas were "in the air" -- how
else explain more than one inventor coming up with the same idea
thousands of miles apart. One could say, well technology had reached the
point where that idea was possible-- exactly, that idea existed, waiting to
be discovered, "in the air."
Marjorie Perloff has sd that now it is Stein/Wittgenstein whereas for the
last generation in was Heidegger/Pound, I think, or was it Whitehead/Olson.
It's a useful point I think.
Of course it's more multiple than that, but points to something actual I
think.
Re Padgett: His Collected (or it might be a big selected) is to be published
soon by Godine. He & Berrigan used to give each other their "failed" poems to
see if the other cld make something w/ them. Believe a couple of the Sonnets
derive from Padgett material.
--Rod
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 12:45:57 -0700
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From: Ryan Knighton <knighton@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Filet O Soul
In-Reply-To: <199507152326.QAA07041@slip-1.slip.net> from "Steve Carll" at Jul
15, 95 04:26:20 pm
I was reading Steve's post and as i was reading Cohen sang "bury
my soul in a scrapbook". Nice ryme. Suppose you could say Net for
scrapbook.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 13:08:30 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Whorf (vs. Pinker)
In-Reply-To: <m0sXW5v-000FYfC@amanue.pgh.net> from "Jim Rosenberg" at Jul 16,
95 11:59:03 am
I have not read Pinker's attack on Whorf, but I have read others'.
(Funny, I was just reccomending Sapir to my brother, who wants to
start reading on language.) Here is what usually happens: the regular
social scientists just hate a social scientist who (1) thinks with
some creativity and beauty, and (2) gets popular with lay people.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 10:07:14 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: Re: doing the one-two writing/teaching
in so far as the text is something you like and enjoy and comment on
you yourself are its student or pupil or follower: it teaches you --
that's the you yourself that you teach. What can you teach, say,
Rembrandt, about painting or about Art?
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Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 10:16:52 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: Re: doing the one-two writing/teaching
I would like "to teach" a book that accepts the term "soul", through
and through. Before the mid-17th century it made sense in poetics and
in hermeneutics, because it was the term under which the anagogical
level of interpretation, the relation of God to the Soul, could be
read.
We don't have that one anymore. Our notions of allegory exclude the
Anagogical. How can we read anything
before 1660?
The rationalisms of the 1660's deleted it and the
Enlightenment wouldn't have it and the Romantics could only be
nostalgic for it.
Among other questions I'd ask: Aren't there any Gnostics left in poetry or did they
all die with the Beat movement?
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 23:36:52 +0000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From: cris cheek <cris@SLANG.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Chiapas
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 15:16:14 -0600
From: juan manuel gomez gonzalez <juan@dctrl.fidieec.unam.mx>
To: Multiple recipients of list <mexico2000@bat.infi.net>
Subject: EZLN: CONSULTA INTERNACIONAL
July 3, 1995
Mexico D.F.
To all artist of the world
To all scientist and intellectuals
To international public opinion
In Mexico power is hardening and the presence of military
intelligence begins to be felt in civil meetings and in governmental
decisions.
Before having to ask for help to alleviate the disaster we want
to prevent it. The consultation that the Zapatista Army of National
Liberation (EZLN) delivers to us today is a wake-up call that can
radically change the destiny for Mexicans and probably for the entire
world.
The five questions that Zapatistas ask, oviously refer to
their needs, resulting from social, economics and political oppresion
of which they have been victims. However in a broader sense they
speak to the necessities of all Mexicans, and as they relate to the
horrors that the neo-leberal system has wrought, they become an
issue of world-wide interest.
We submit for your review the following proposal:
To organiza an intense promotional campaign for the
consultation in as many spaces as possible, concert hall, theaters,
workshops, seminars, exhibits, video and film screenings, radio and
television programs, the press, magazines, interviews, electronic mail
and other contemporary media.
In addition you can organize new activities during the month of
July to concide with the schedule outlined by the Zapatistas; July for
the international and August for the national consultation.
We are proposing that each country organize the consultation
in its own way, with us sharing the basic information, but allowing
you and your organizations to design the methodology and the plan
of action.
We would like for some of you to visit our country and if
possible give concerts or public forums; your international profile can
help enormously to shape public opinion and to raise money which is
in our case very scarce.
Therefore, it would be great to promote the consultation
through some Mexicans personality. In fact, trips to varius countries
have already been organized by members of the comission of the comission of
international linkage, and we hope to count on your support if
possible in inviting Mexican artist to perform in your countries for
the benefit of this project.
In my case, as part of the international commission and as a
musician, I can propose a simple performance, requiring only a piano
and a microphone, although I would prefer to travel with an assistent.
We are addressing all of those concerned for democracy, justice
and liberty, to all those who in a book, a song or symphony express
their commitment to the truth. To those in your classroom, in a
conference or in your work who are everyday marking an effort so
that the world would be better.
We want Mexico to heve its first elections without manipulation
by the authorities, we want to get rid of the impossibility of
participating in the construction of a more habitable country.
We trust in your intelligence, talent, and sensibility, we need
you.
Fraternally
Guillermo Brisen~o
P.S. If you want more information, please contact Guillermo Brisen~o,
tel 661 8312 and 539 6548 (fax) in Mexico D.F. or the numbers and
e-mail addresses that accompany this invitation.
P.P.S. In Mexico, the non-governmental organization Alianza Civica
will be in charge of the consultation an the Convencion Nacional
Democratica (CND), of which we are a part, will undertake its
promotion. The CND is also responsible for both organizing and
promoting, with your help, the consultation on an international level.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 19:12:25 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Marisa A Januzzi <jma5@COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: innocence and language
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950715213907.18394A-100000@uhunix4.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu>
To bring the twin trains head-on: after reading a lot of surrealist
poetry and then Lyn Hejnian (whose work SLEEPS Rachel Blau DuPlessis
called 'dreamlike without being surreal') I got convinced that the "ghost
in the machine" of language poetry was the female misreader in western
tradition, materialized in a sort of nondominance game played with(in)
characters of language itself-- the literalizing female misreader,
somehow caught poetically in the act (the way you can see a person
backspacing over typos in a spilt-screen conversation)
Like Francesca of Paolo fame... which reminds me of the article that
started all this, Susan Noakes' "On the Superficiality of Women"
Just a thought (does anyone know who this Gaspara Stampa was, that Rilke
rites about in the DUINO ELEGIES?)
"Love and love"
Marisa
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Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 17:39:05 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ryan Knighton <knighton@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: innocence and language
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950716190327.4327D-100000@namaste.cc.columbia.edu>
from "Marisa A Januzzi" at Jul 16, 95 07:12:25 pm
Marisa writes abt the "misreader being caught in the act" and
likens it to split screen conversations typos. I like this idea
and found myself in it today thinking abt palimpsest. It strikes me
that Marisa is right on with regards to Hejinian. But I would say
that, if palimpsest is another term for what is being described, this
is also a feature, structural and conceptual, of at least some
serial poem forms. Anyone?
Thanks, Marisa. I'm off to look at My Life.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 14:17:24 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: Re: innocence and language
misreadings, Marisa, and curious typos on this list (I do plenty
myself) recently:
tauntology stduents whta teh genuis chnage blundle
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Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 23:12:19 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rod Smith <AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: palimpsets & misreadings
Seems to me both the "palimpset" and the "misreading" terminology imply
something's wrong, or awry. . .
don't know. . .
is this what you mean to imply?. . .
I mean, Lyn's work seems to me thought through. Even the gaps.
--Rod
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Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 22:17:17 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: innocence and language
In message <Pine.SUN.3.91.950716190327.4327D-100000@namaste.cc.columbia.edu> UB
Poetics discussion group writes:
I got convinced that the "ghost
> in the machine" of language poetry was the female misreader in western
> tradition, materialized in a sort of nondominance game played with(in)
> characters of language itself-- the literalizing female misreader,
> somehow caught poetically in the act (the way you can see a person
> backspacing over typos in a spilt-screen conversation)
>
> "Love and love"
> Marisa
this sounds really cool and smart but i'm not sure i know what you mean by "the
ghost in the machine" of language poetry; why a specifically *female*
(mis)reader for *langpo* specifically. ah--do you mean that langpo somehow
"enacts" or literalizes a process of (an arguably politicized or politicizable)
"mis"reading that is traditionally associated with or practiced by women? like
stein or jane bowles who sometimes sound as if they got the idiom just a little
bit wrong accidentally on purpose, and end up remaking language? this may be
why i teach a lot of women language poets (in a number of courses entitled
everything from "weird books by women" to "ecriture feminine and women language
poets" to "women and the literature of trauma) and hardly any men, though i'm
beginning to appreciate the male poets (mostly through live readings). I find
it realtively easy to associate language "techniques" and rationales with
women's "concerns," though i've thought of that as my problem, a kind of
intellectual laziness or self-interested essentialism. I like the way you put
it --if i read you right --if i read you wrong could you clarify?--md
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 21:36:20 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steve Carll <sjcarll@SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: palimpsets & misreadings
Rod:
>Seems to me both the "palimpset" and the "misreading" terminology imply
>something's wrong, or awry. . .
Oh, I didn't get that impression at all. I think the "mis" in "misreading"
is ironic. If I'm not mistaken, that comes from its use in the argument
over whether the reader ever really "gets" the author's "intended meaning".
Insofar as the language employed by the author is polysemic, "every reading
is a misreading" of the author's intent. But these misreadings, because the
reader takes *some* meaning from them, become nonetheless tremendously
liberating to the reader who stops worrying whether the author intended a
certain meaning or not. And the palimpsest is similar--the writer tries to
erase previous texts and lay a new one on top, but never fully succeeds; the
reader can always see through to the other levels, to varying degrees. Some
writers acknowledge these freedoms of the reader and use them as a means of
maximizing the joy and freedom of writing, by allowing for the reader's
intentionality and/or playing with possible "pretexts"; and I think this is
a valid assertion to make about Lyn's work.
Steve
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Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 15:23:36 +0900
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: John Geraets <frank@DPC.AICHI-GAKUIN.AC.JP>
Subject: manipulators
On behalf of a fellow Nagoyan, Bruce Malcolm, I'd
like to ask does anyone know of text manipulation
software, randomizers, whatever, that may be commercially
available (or not, as the case may be).
Scuze the vagueness of the request, but if you
know of anything that may be interesting, please
let us know.
pp Bruce Malcolm
frank@dpc.aichi-gakuin.ac.jp
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Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 08:27:38 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: Re: where it comes from
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9507141639.A21823-0100000@maroon.tc.umn.edu> from
"Brian W Horihan" at Jul 14, 95 05:28:57 pm
What do we mean when we say, "Wow, she's got soul," or "Hey, let's
take a ride on the soul train?"
Mike
mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca
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Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 08:24:06 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: John Cayley <cayley@SHADOOF.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: sound symbolism
Forgive me if I pass on taking up the actual questions raised by J G on
this thread, despite having looked at sound symbolism - and motivated
language generally - over the years. Still, members of the list may wish to
know about an excellent piece on the subject by J H Pyrnne, a lecture
published by Birkbeck College, University of London:
J H Prynne: Stars, Tigers and the Shape of Words, London: Birkbeck College, 1993
You used to be able to get it direct from Birkbeck for about GBP 6.00.
Perhaps someone else on the list remembers the details.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 05:57:03 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM>
Subject: recent future reading
The Lovely & Talented <eskimo.com>, my internet service provider, had a
major hacker problem recently and was down for about two weeks while they
cleaned up a few digital messes, searched for (& found a ton of 'em) back
doors, installed some new equipment, and called more than 6,000 members to
give us all new passwords.
I only bring it up cause I'll be responding to some older threads that
might should have died a natural death.
I guess I'll be the first for Kenneth Goldsmith's next compilation of the
list's readings.
Beside Steve Shaviro's online classic Doom Patrols that I noted a few weeks
ago (& many of the same poetry magazines everyone else mentioned), I've
been reading in & at the following:
Various chunks of Ron Silliman's Alphabet - Ron, when you wrote a week or
two ago about not revising much in the Alphabet, did you also mean that you
don't rearrange the order of sentences?
A very odd collection of poems used as texts for a set of commissioned
songs by eleven American composers for voice and piano that will be
published (with luck) by the end of the year and recorded for a CD to be
released in spring 1996. The only collection I can imagine to include both
Nelson Bentley (composition by Thomas Peterson) and Jackson Mac Low
(composition by Susan Stenger). The scores are musically as varied as the
texts;
Jane Gaines' Contested Culture, a very good legal studies look at the
history of copyright/trademark law;
A dreadfully dull book called Copyright's Highway, that doesn't seem to
cover what I'm looking for;
Midnight Blue by Nancy Collins, a refreshingly non-turgid (though not as
good as Kathryn Bigelow's movie Near Dark) vampire trilogy, the last book
seems like it's going to be a little too, uh, nice;
Progress by Barrett Watten - this month's book for the Seattle reading
group (looking at Mike Magoolaghan's list, he seems to think he can get by
with just reading the (very good) new Aerial on Watten. Now _that_, Mike,
would be pretentious);
Samuel Delany's Atlantis: 3 Tales - a mainstream novel, not science
fiction. I've been hearing about this for two years from a friend who just
published a too-pricey-for-me limited edition of this, but Wesleyan's got a
trade edition that the library already had;
A half dozen mysteries my aunt sent me cause she remembered that my mom
used to do so. Unfortunately my aunt's taste in mysteries isn't as close to
mine as my mom's was: these seem to all be British vicarage things;
A huge stack of Canadian, British & New Zealand poetry books picked up at
BlaserCon that doesn't seem to be getting any smaller;
& tomorrow I pick up 4 books the library is holding for me, 3 suggested in
some way or another by folks on <poetics>
Paul Mann's Theory Death of the Avant Garde
Alan Golding's From Outlaw to Classic
George Landow's Hyper/Text/Theory
plus Edward Strickland's Minimalism
Herb Levy
herb@eskimo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 05:57:15 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM>
Subject: Re: manipulators
>On behalf of a fellow Nagoyan, Bruce Malcolm, I'd
>like to ask does anyone know of text manipulation
>software, randomizers, whatever, that may be commercially
>available (or not, as the case may be).
>
>Scuze the vagueness of the request, but if you
>know of anything that may be interesting, please
>let us know.
>
There's a very simple randomizing hypercard stack (therefore Macintosh
only) called Dada Poet. This has very few user definable parameters, and it
is quite random, not useful if you're interested in maintaining a semblance
of grammar or syntax, but it is capable of some interesting bucket-brigade
effects, in addition to general randomizing.
Travesty is available for IBM-compatibles. I haven't used this but based on
the book Sentences, recently published by Sun & Moon (don't forget to look
for those blue M&Ms!), it seems to do some interesting things.
If Bruce Malcolm is interested in doing some syntactic programming-level
work, there's a very powerful, and funny, program called Kant Generator Pro
that is set up to write large chunks of Kantian prose. The program also has
modules for Husserlian prose, excuses, thank-you notes and several
mathematical modules useful for programming in Pascal. It's possible to
modify any of these modules to do other kinds of random generation within a
generalized syntactic structure from list of vocabulary and/or phrases,
but, as I said above, this takes some work. Kant Generator Pro is a GNU
program, I have it for Mac, but I think it's available for other computer
platforms, too.
These are also several different anagram programs around, but that may be
more text manipulation than you're looking for.
I don't have addresses for these programs readily at hand, but all of them
should be available on the Internet with archy, gopher, or some other
search program.
I've heard of several other programs that I haven't seen in action. I'd be
interested in any other such programs people know of.
Herb Levy
herb@eskimo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 06:04:27 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM>
Subject: Re: Exercise(s)
Tony Green asked, in the context of the discussion about rules v looser
practice:
>are Chopin Studies "exercises"? or J.S.Bach Inventions or B Bartok
>Mikrokosmos?
These are finished compositions, but they also serve as exercises for
performers who, by playing these compositions get practice in some
particular technique, fingering, rhythmic patterns, articulation, etc.
A related kind of poem-as-etude might be text-sound pieces which, if
performed by people other than the originating writer, give the performer
the opportunity to stretch their vocal "chops" in ways they haven't
previously.
A less directly related kind of "etude" might be any poems which are so
unlike one's own thinking that to read them is to "exercise" one's
intellect.
That said, I think that because poems are rarely performed by readers other
than the poet who wrote them (except of course in those enlightened
classrooms people have been detailing in other threads), there are very few
poems that serve the same kind of function as musical "etudes" do.
Herb Levy
herb@eskimo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 06:04:33 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM>
Subject: Re: Brathwaite tapes,
Lately I've been thinking a lot, and writing a little, about composers who
digitally sample sounds made by others to make new pieces (John Oswald;
Carl Stone; Bob Ostertag; Stock, Hausen & Walkman; David Shea; etc), so
maybe I'm particularly conscious of intellectual property issues right now.
Still it was surprising to see that several people had no qualms about
offering to dub tapes of Brathwaite readings, including a tape that is a
commercial product. Especially given the infrequent but common qualms
people have about posting the text of other writer's poems on <poetics>.
Now I'm not a prude about this-I've dubbed and photocopied plenty of things
for myself and others. But I dont' recall anyone saying they'd send a xerox
when people posted to the list asking about the availability of a
particular book or poem.
Did this seem odd to anyone else?
In any event, I think those LP recordings of Brathwaite's were of him
reading The Arrivants, not Middle Passage, which is too recent a book to be
released on vinyl by any semi-conscious company.
Though George Bowering will be glad to note that albums by megapop stars
like Hole are often pressed on vinyl for the collector's market.
Herb Levy
herb@eskimo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 09:16:32 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Kellogg <kellogg@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>
Subject: Re: doing the one-two writing/teaching
In-Reply-To: <199507141643.JAA24087@fraser.sfu.ca>
On Fri, 14 Jul 1995, Carl Lynden Peters wrote:
> > Here's a twist on the subject: Should students be required to compose
> > poetry in a poetry course (I don't mean in a poetry-writing course)?
> >
> --yes, and it should go without saying. i don't think you can teach art
> if you can't make art
You're kidding, right? They *should* be *required*?
Just like that? All students? Every class?
Every unqualified "should" and its unqualified
affirmation gets me to thinking: What is gained
and lost in this kind of conversation?
Obviously one thing that's lost is any concept of a
non-pedagogical possibility for poetry. Who said the
students in the class were going to be teachers?
Carl's response, not to put too fine a point on it,
constructs a seemingly inevitable linear development
from student to teacher. Just because many on this list,
including me, have moved in such a direction doesn't mean
that others might take a poetry course for a hundred other
reasons, just as valid. And just because somebody decides
that *they* "should" teach poetry writing in a poetry
reading course doesn't mean that others "should" follow.
I'm not saying they shouldn't. I have gone both ways,
depending on the occasion, and found benefits in
several different class-constructions.
Not all of us teach poetry as "art," either.
Apologies for the tendentiousness of this post.
Cheers,
David
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Kellogg The moment is at hand.
University Writing Program Take one another
Duke University and eat.
Durham, NC 27708
kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 09:27:55 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Kellogg <kellogg@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Whorf (vs. Pinker)
In-Reply-To: <199507162008.NAA10360@fraser.sfu.ca>
On Sun, 16 Jul 1995, George Bowering wrote:
> I have not read Pinker's attack on Whorf, but I have read others'.
> (Funny, I was just reccomending Sapir to my brother, who wants to
> start reading on language.) Here is what usually happens: the regular
^^^^^^^
> social scientists just hate a social scientist who (1) thinks with
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> some creativity and beauty, and (2) gets popular with lay people.
Have read Pinker, will comment soon, but just to say: Pinker's not a
social scientist, strictly speaking, but a cognitive neuroscientist. He's
very close to a biologist, in fact. So he doesn't just hate popular
social scientists: if you read the last chapter of his book, you'll see he
hates them ALL!
Cheers,
David
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Kellogg The moment is at hand.
University Writing Program Take one another
Duke University and eat.
Durham, NC 27708
kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 09:01:32 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Carl Lynden Peters <clpeters@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: doing the one-two writing/teaching
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.950717090101.19435C-100000
@godzilla.acpub.duke.edu> from "David Kellogg" at Jul 17,
95 09:16:32 am
>
> On Fri, 14 Jul 1995, Carl Lynden Peters wrote:
>
> > > Here's a twist on the subject: Should students be required to compose
> > > poetry in a poetry course (I don't mean in a poetry-writing course)?
> > >
> > --yes, and it should go without saying. i don't think you can teach art
> > if you can't make art
>
> You're kidding, right? They *should* be *required*?
> Just like that? All students? Every class?
>
david,
yes, i am serious. what i'm aiming at in my statement is the notion of
the poem as a way of knowing. several initial questions immediately come
to mind: --how could one _teach_ that? --how does one _demonstrate_ that?
my current studies are such that these questions are of immense interest
to me. i don't see this approach (and it's one of many approaches) as
linear, either
take care,
carl
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 12:07:02 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rae Armantrout <RaeA100900@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: doing the one-two writing...
Dear Tony,
You ask if there are any Gnostics left in poetry (since the beats). I
would suggest Fanny Howe.
Rae
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 13:46:02 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Kellogg <kellogg@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>
Subject: Re: doing the one-two writing/teaching
In-Reply-To: <199507171601.JAA17878@fraser.sfu.ca>
On Mon, 17 Jul 1995, Carl Lynden Peters wrote:
> yes, i am serious. what i'm aiming at in my statement is the notion of
> the poem as a way of knowing. several initial questions immediately come
> to mind: --how could one _teach_ that? --how does one _demonstrate_ that?
> my current studies are such that these questions are of immense interest
> to me. i don't see this approach (and it's one of many approaches) as
> linear, either
>
Glad to hear it. It just seemed to me that the discussion was in danger
of turning into a seminar on what a poetry class should be; I didn't
detect the pluralism demonstrated above in the earlier post.
Cheers,
David
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Kellogg The moment is at hand.
University Writing Program Take one another
Duke University and eat.
Durham, NC 27708
kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 13:24:42 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gale Nelson <EL500005@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
I was reading from "Meaning Is to Be Here," A Selction from the Daybook
of George Oppen (edited by Cynthia Anderson, Conjunctions 10) to a group
of writers in a summer program here in Providence, and found a few
fragments that seemed relevant to discussions here:
I will have to say what I can without the magnificent King's x. No disclosures,
of course, that I can make, but just to say truthfully what it is to live. And
see: or begin. Because someday -- everyone will be terrified. They have so far
managed to find militant atheism or disguised atheism as comforting as militant
religion or disguised religion. It won't last much longer. The physical
scientists are giving no one any peace. The philosophers are strangely
exhilarated to be proving rigorously that their statements don't mean
anything or have no importance. Won't last long. Raises a question of
survival. We must somehow get hold of what we know and what we can't know,
and begin, to live with it. Not an abstract, nor even a private matter. Most
of our laws are theocratic: our punishments assume an absolute moral judgment.
The death penalty could not exist today without the habit of speaking of a
transcendental morality. Our judgments and our punishments are theocratic.
They will collapse. We had better start talking. We must wean ourselves from
narrative, which is everyone's art form, because everyone really knows -- it
is the most obvious of facts -- that every life ends badly. Very badly. Not
only death, but loneliness, desertions *irreparable* physical injury. Every
ship sinks. All the calamities the hero escapes he does not escape. We had
better talk. Even tho we are afraid of being overheard by the children. Or
someday we will die of despair when we overhear the children. We haven't begun
to talk, or we have talked nonsense. A simple poetic undertaking: to see if
life is livable, to make life livable. Without lying. Not that I wouldn't be
glad to: people are becoming too discerning. We are consciously lying to each
other by now. But I mean to become part of a discussion among honest people.
(p. 189)
*An epigrammatic post-script:*
'Form is never more than an extension of content'
It had better not be an *extension! perhaps a compression*
Form is
what makes the poem *graspable*
Sincerity is the attention outward.
Objectification is creation
obviously enough.
to write at the moving edge is both of these, or perhaps
more than these
*the infinite*
(p. 199)
i do not hear the rhythm as the poem forms -- the beginning, the speed of
the poem -- rather it is a shape, in fact a silence The shape silently
forms as if 'above' me -- the effort of the writing, the finding of the
cadence is the care not to shatter this presence -- tho often it must be
shattered and only then restored
(p. 200)
Cheers,
Gale Nelson
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 11:17:49 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Shaunanne Tangney <st@SCS.UNR.EDU>
Subject: Re: where it comes from
In-Reply-To: <199507171227.IAA09666@blues.epas.utoronto.ca>
On Mon, 17 Jul 1995, Michael Boughn wrote:
> What do we mean when we say, "Wow, she's got soul," or "Hey, let's
> take a ride on the soul train?"
>
> Mike
> mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca
>
[appologies to Ira who's heard this already--]
I had read in Cixous recently that she locates the soul at the body.
Which I thought was groovy, but was still thinking on how this is. I
mean to say that I liked the idea that the body was the locus of the
soul, but what did this mean.
Then on Saturday I was listening to a program on NPR about vocalese--how
do you spell that?--which is when the singer tries to make his/her voice
behave as closely as possible to the way a musical instrument
behaves--and I thought, THAT'S IT!! That is writing the body (cf Cixous)--
makingthe language behave as closely as possible to the way the body
behaves-- and that is how/why the body as the location of the soul works for me.
If we make the soul of the same behaviors of the body--labor, sweat, sex,
touch (to communicate is also to touch, remember)--we can deal with it.
If soul, or consciousness--and I think they are awfully the same--are
always absent--and absence--always off, away from us in the ether
somewhere--how can we know them, or even experience them, and most
especially articulate them?
But if the body is the soul--it does become present--and a presence--we
can know it, experience it, share it--WRITE IT.
Soul is important--it is what writing has been about and after as long as
their has been writing. But I think, I really do, that if we allow the
body to be the soul, that writing becomes a lot more successful, more
COMMUNICATIVE. . .
Best,
ShaunAnne
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 12:08:03 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Lindz Williamson <lmichell@UNIXG.UBC.CA>
Subject: Re: Filet O Soul
In-Reply-To: <199507161945.MAA09426@fraser.sfu.ca>
On the origins of poems topic I used the word soul and I'm really
impressed with the continuing debate. Howxever I still must say the soul
is my center of inspiration.
It has nothing to do with organized religion or or celestial sensations.
It's the part of me that exist beyond the buzzing of my neurons and the
pumping of my blood. It is that which translates chemical reActions and
elctric stimlations of living into the thought I pour on to the page.
The mind and the body are extingiushable, but not the soul. The mind and
body are needed in order to function in life, but a soul is needed in
death.
I'm not sure if poetry is really needed any where, but it does prove to
be a nice fringe benefit. The fact that creativity is not a necessity in
the basics of life (food, shelter) but is such an integeral part of my
own being comforts me. It is an unexplain element in my life that I must
feed and satisfy, therefore I will nurture it and label it my soul
because I can only hope it will serve a greater purpose later in my life/ or
in my death.
Lindz
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 12:14:41 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ryan Knighton <knighton@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: gnostics
In-Reply-To: <950717120701_34463100@aol.com> from "Rae Armantrout" at Jul 17,
95 12:07:02 pm
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasnt there a piece written about
Spicer and Gnosticism? And, for a wonderful take on Gnosticism,
and everything else under this sun, I suppose, try Phil K. Dick's
_Valis_. Something about SF (San Fran and Sci Fi) and Gnosticism?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 15:19:19 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steven Howard Shoemaker <ss6r@FERMI.CLAS.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Subject: Oppen/Heidegger/Wittgenstein
In-Reply-To: <199507170401.AAA141925@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU> from "Automatic
digest processor" at Jul 17, 95 00:00:17 am
Marjorie Perloff writes:
"On Oppen/Wittgenstein/Heidegger: I worked on this while writing my
Wittgenstein book and it's complicated because although Oppen thinks he's
more like Heidegger, his use of language is often much closer to
Wittgenstein's treatment of ordinary language. But not as close as, say,
Creeley is. Still, "Of Being Numerous," for example, is a rather
Wittgensteinian poem as Burt Hatlen pointed out some time ago. Or at
least Witt. can help one read Oppen.
Marjorie Perloff"
Dear Marjorie:
What Hatlen piece are you thinking of? I'd like to read it--right now,
Oppen seems to me so saturated with Heideggerian assumptions that i have
a hard time seeing the Witt. connection, but i *am* curious.
steve
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 15:30:35 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Willa Jarnagin <JARNAGIN@HULAW1.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Recording of Spicer reading Language?
Does anyone know if there is a recording of Jack Spicer reading from
Language? I and a friend of mine are dying to hear it, if there is one.
Thanks,
Willa
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 15:58:04 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steven Howard Shoemaker <ss6r@FERMI.CLAS.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Subject: accidental poetics
In-Reply-To: <199507170401.AAA141925@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU> from "Automatic
digest processor" at Jul 17, 95 00:00:17 am
I was just in a fairly minor car accident the other day--i.e. i'm more or
less fine, tho' the car wuz "totalled." Anyway, the rental i'm driving has
a sticker reading "Berglund," presumably the name of the car dealer, on its
rear, and the osteopath i wuz sent to is nambed Gelburd. I can't get the
fact that these are nearly perfect anagrams out of my head. This partly
has to do with the way memory works i guess--i keep misremembering the
doctor's name, and so have continually to rehearse the differance. But
also has to do i suppose with the/my tendency/compulision to read
everything, even a car accident as a linguistic event.
Does this sort of thing happen to "you" too?
And btw, has anyone seen The Postman (Italian flick about Neruda in Italian
exile and his relationship with the titular mailman, or to be less
poetcentric, it's about the mailman's relation to Neruda). Pretty
romanticized i guess, but i was rather touched to see some sort of
film treatment of what it means "to be a poet," and of the social fact of
being-a-poet as well (not just the tortures of the Divine and Solitary
Afflatus, like a bad case of gastroindigestion etc etc
(and even my mailman/poet centricity qualifications above are inadequate,
'cause the mailman does turn out to be a sort of poet too...
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 16:28:11 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Willa Jarnagin <JARNAGIN@HULAW1.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Niedecker/Loy/George
In-Reply-To: <199507160746.AAA07477@fraser.sfu.ca>
On Sun, 16 Jul 1995, George Bowering wrote:
> I am having a hard time understanding Ira Lightman's response to my
> mentioning of Mina Loy. I would never attack anyone's love of
> Niedecker. I have loved her work for 30 years. I didnt say that she
> reminds me of Loy. I never introduced the context of gender. All I
> said was that Loy was really good at employing the space around
> words, and that one who reads Niedecker might have a look at that
> too. Lightman also put quotation marks around the words he attributed
> to me. I dont get the point of that at all.
>
As the "list lurker" who loves Niedecker and was supposedly "attacked," I
just have to say, George, I interpreted your comment just as you meant
it. I was glad you responded to my admiration of Niedecker and suggested
another poet whose work I might like as well.
--Willa
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 17:41:06 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jordan Davis." <Jordan70@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: gnostics
Not quite sure what we mean by gnosticism here (was Dickinson a gnostic? was
Harold Bloom?) but I _had_ heard a rumor that Leonard Schwartz & Joe Donahue
were editing an anthology of contemporary gnostic poetry...
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 15:38:09 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ryan Knighton <knighton@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Recording of Spicer reading Language?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9507171520.A543191523-0100000@HULAW1.HARVARD.EDU> from
"Willa Jarnagin" at Jul 17, 95 03:30:35 pm
When I was researching Spicer for George I didn't come across one ( a
reading of Language, that is. And that was my central focus). The
Contemporary Lit. Collection here at Simon Fraser actually had one
or two readings, I think, besides the Vancouver Lectures. I think
Charles Watts is on the list still. He knows best. Charles?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 18:02:06 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: gnostics
In message <199507171914.MAA07441@fraser.sfu.ca> UB Poetics discussion group
writes:
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasnt there a piece written about
> Spicer and Gnosticism? And, for a wonderful take on Gnosticism,
> and everything else under this sun, I suppose, try Phil K. Dick's
> _Valis_. Something about SF (San Fran and Sci Fi) and Gnosticism?
yes, i'd in fact suggest the berkeley renaissance crowd, of which Dick was an
fringe member. I've heard blaser, duncan and spicer referred to as "gnostic
platonists," whatever that means. md
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 20:57:11 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Edward Foster <EFOSTER@VAXC.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: doing the one-two writing/teaching
no, george, it means simply, for one thing, that no two people read a book the same way, or, elegantly, from emerson: "it depends on the mood of the man, whether he shall see the sunset or the fine poem." - "we see only what we animate."
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 21:01:05 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: innocence and language
Marisa,
Just read a beautiful piece by Noakes on Dante. Who is she? What else
has she written? Where can I find "On the Superficiality of Women"?
Burt
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 13:08:06 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: Re: manipulators
Jackson Mac Low would know I guess, perhaps a New York lister cd find
out?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 13:13:20 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: Re: doing the one-two writing/teaching
Carl, wouldn't it get in the way, not knowing what the instruction
means: write a poem. Write a what? what counts as a poem? finding
that out is something between teacher and student. Do you get faced
with: I cannot do this exercise, because you have provided
insufficient protocols for me to begin. (I got this last year from
disgruntled students who had, with some additional specifications,
been asked to write an introduction to an imaginary exhibition. How
much worse with a "poem". What models for poem do you 1 offer,
2 propose,3 advise, 4 leave blank?)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 19:25:42 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM>
Subject: reading list
Now that I've seen what it is, I want to thank Kenneth Goldsmith for,
apparently, tracking all of the books referred to on <poetics>, not just
people's summer/bedside reading lists. This should not be a thankless task.
After getting nearly three weeks of mail at once, I've ended up nuking lots
of posts (none of the really important, and interesting, ones by you who is
reading this now, of course-just those other messages) before really
reading them & found (oops) I'd lost a few book references I'd wanted to
keep in this way. Many of them were still around 'cause I'd saved Kenneth's
Reading List post(s).
(Just what I need, a list of more books I haven't read yet or want to
re-read.) But really, thanks, Kenneth.
Herb Levy
herb@eskimo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 22:59:42 -0400
Reply-To: Robert Drake <au462@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Robert Drake <au462@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: manipulators
>On behalf of a fellow Nagoyan, Bruce Malcolm, I'd
>like to ask does anyone know of text manipulation
>software, randomizers, whatever, that may be commercially
>available (or not, as the case may be).
>
>Scuze the vagueness of the request, but if you
>know of anything that may be interesting, please
>let us know.
>
also for Mac, a program called "TextMangle" (an implementation
of Travesty? i think), and one called "Deconstructor". if
you can't find these on the net, contact me backchannel...
luigi
au462@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 23:02:19 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@ALBNYVMS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: gnostics
someone said that duncan blaser and spicer are "gnostic platonists"
though this may be true of duncan, spicer was more "skeptical" or at
least less "platonic"--to lump the three together obscures the debates
and passionate arguments between them (with robin often getting caught
in the middle, both philosophically and emotionally--not mere bio
ad hominen) that had much to do with making the scene so vital...cs
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 22:23:46 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: innocence and language
In message <00993810.E557320E.8@admin.njit.edu> UB Poetics discussion group
writes:
> Marisa,
>
> Just read a beautiful piece by Noakes on Dante. Who is she? What else
> has she written? Where can I find "On the Superficiality of Women"?
>
> Burt
i'm maria not marisa, but i know who susan noakes is cuz until just a year ago
she was dean of faculty in my division of this huge state university. she's a
french scholar/medievalist feminist, and she's really nice, she was really
helpful in my tenure process and sympathetic to the incredible tsoris i
encountered at the hands of my incompetent and unethical departmental superiors.
now she's part time at U North Carolina and part time here, at Minnesota, in
each univ's respective french dept. i'm sure she;d be tickled to know her work
was being read/lauded on the poetics list. she also has an essay in the jonathan
boyarin collection i mentioned a few months ago, from UMN press, on the
anthropology of reading (can't remember the main title, book's in office, i;m at
home). is that the article you mean, marisa? (i must confess i've not read the
boyarin book, except for his own essay, and i've not read my colleague s
noakes's work either).--md
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 23:27:45 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Loss Glazier <lolpoet@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Gloucester
Is anyone on this list near/in Gloucester or familiar with it? I am
interested in some advice/tourist/practical information. If so,
could you mail me "backchannel"?
I appreciate it,
Loss
lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 22:27:56 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: gnostics
In message <01HSZSDEKYHE8Y650T@albnyvms.BITNET> UB Poetics discussion group
writes:
> someone said that duncan blaser and spicer are "gnostic platonists"
> though this may be true of duncan, spicer was more "skeptical" or at
> least less "platonic"--to lump the three together obscures the debates
> and passionate arguments between them (with robin often getting caught
> in the middle, both philosophically and emotionally--not mere bio
> ad hominen) that had much to do with making the scene so vital...cs
yes of course. the person (who will remain nameless) who said this was someone
i didn't think was the brightest light on the block...but since it was, i think,
the last time (1987 or so) i heard of gnosticism as a category for postwar
american poetry i thought i'd pass it on.--md
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 22:34:03 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Filet O Soul
In message <Pine.SOL.3.91.950717115441.10840D-100000@interchg.ubc.ca> UB
Poetics discussion group writes:
> On the origins of poems topic I used the word soul and I'm really
> impressed with the continuing debate. Howxever I still must say the soul
> is my center of inspiration.
>
> It has nothing to do with organized religion or or celestial sensations.
> It's the part of me that exist beyond the buzzing of my neurons and the
> pumping of my blood. It is that which translates chemical reActions and
> elctric stimlations of living into the thought I pour on to the page.
> The mind and the body are extingiushable, but not the soul. The mind and
> body are needed in order to function in life, but a soul is needed in
> death.
> I'm not sure if poetry is really needed any where, but it does prove
> to
> be a nice fringe benefit. The fact that creativity is not a necessity in
> the basics of life (food, shelter) but is such an integeral part of my
> own being comforts me. It is an unexplain element in my life that I must
> feed and satisfy, therefore I will nurture it and label it my soul
> because I can only hope it will serve a greater purpose later in my life/ or
> in my death.
>
>
> Lindz
does this, perhaps, have anything to do with deleuze's hypothesis that the self
is an unstable, shimmering boundary between two becomings? what wd happen if
the word "soul" was used here? also, brian, the only thing that comes to mind
in your very interesting query is some big deal (though physically "slim") book
about freud that came out in the 80s, excerpted in the New Yorker, by some big
deal guy, maybe Bruno Bettelheim? could that be? claiming that the word freud
used for ...was it consciousness? mind? self? you can see these secondhand
references make a deep impression ...could actually be profitably, and
faithfully (no pun intended) translated and/or understood as "soul." i don't
know if that rescues the word from mysticism or conversely imputes a mystical
bent to freud, but there you have it. maybe this is as flaky an idea as
"gnostic platonism."--md
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 23:37:56 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Loss Glazier <lolpoet@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Re: innocence and language
In-Reply-To: <300b292c5381002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> from "maria damon" at Jul 17,
95 10:23:46 pm
> was being read/lauded on the poetics list. she also has an essay in
> the jonathan boyarin collection i mentioned a few months ago, from
> UMN press, on the anthropology of reading (can't remember the main
> title, book's in office, i;m at home)
Maria, is that _The Ethnography of reading_?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 21:12:28 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Lindz Williamson <lmichell@UNIXG.UBC.CA>
Subject: Re: where it comes from
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.91.950717110802.26520A-100000@pogonip.scs.unr.edu>
Shaunne wrote:
Soul is important--it is what writing has been about and after as long as
their has been writing. But I think, I really do, that if we allow the
body to be the soul, that writing becomes a lot more successful, more
COMMUNICATIVE. . .
Yes, yes , yes I agree, love Lindz
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 22:41:00 CST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Alexander <mcba@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: doing the one-two writing/teaching
"Not all of us teach poetry as `art,' either."
David Kellogg, could you explain this statement? If not art, then what? Or
perhaps we have different definitions of art?
thanks,
charles alexander
chax press
minnesota center for book arts
phone & fax: 612-721-6063
e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 21:34:54 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Lindz Williamson <lmichell@UNIXG.UBC.CA>
Subject: Re: Filet O Soul
In-Reply-To: <300b2b9f5937002@maroon.tc.umn.edu>
SOUL
O who shall from this dungeon raise
A soul inslav'd so many ways?
With bolts of bones; that fetter'd stands
In feet; and manacled hands;
here bkinded with an eye; and there
Deaf with the drumming of an ear;
A soul hung up, as twere, in chains
Of nerves and arteries and viens;
Tortur'd, besides each other part,
In a vain head and doubles heart.
BODY
O who shall me deliver whole
From bonds of this tyrannic soul?
which stretch'd upright, impales me so
That mine own precipice I go;
And warms and moves this needless frame
(A fever could but do the same);
And wanting where its spite to try,
Has made me live to let me die;
a body that could never rest,
Since this ill spirit it possess'd
Andrew Marvell "A Dialogue between the Soul and the Body"
Lindz
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 21:36:30 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Carl Lynden Peters <clpeters@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: doing the one-two writing/teaching
In-Reply-To: <MAILQUEUE-101.950718131320.608@ccnov2.auckland.ac.nz> from "Tony
Green" at Jul 18, 95 01:13:20 pm
>
> Carl, wouldn't it get in the way, not knowing what the instruction
> means: write a poem. Write a what? what counts as a poem? finding
> that out is something between teacher and student. Do you get faced
> with: I cannot do this exercise, because you have provided
> insufficient protocols for me to begin. (I got this last year from
> disgruntled students who had, with some additional specifications,
> been asked to write an introduction to an imaginary exhibition. How
> much worse with a "poem". What models for poem do you 1 offer,
> 2 propose,3 advise, 4 leave blank?)
>
tony,
--these are important questions and i appreciate them, thank-you.
interesting: i just just talked with one of my instructors for medieval lit.
abt an essay draft. she told me it was an excellent paper, but distant.
_distant_! --i had know idea what she meant by that --> for a second. then
she noted to me that "there is no _you_ in this paper." i asked her: do
you mean there's no _poetical_ i? "exactly," she said. i suspect that it
is my unfamiliarity with the material which inspired the death of my
poetical i in this paper. but i'm going to go back to this essay and find
it. i'm not sure how but this relates to your post. we are words and our
meanings change (bp)
take care,
carl
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 21:37:52 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Marjorie Perloff <perloff@LELAND.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 16 Jul 1995 to 17 Jul 1995
In-Reply-To: <199507180402.VAA14019@leland.Stanford.EDU>
Steve--the Hatlen essay on Oppen's "Wittgensteinian" (as opposed to
Poundian or Imagist) aesthetic is in SAGETRIEB, one of the first issues
so I think around '83. I don't have the reference at my fingertips--if
you can't find, I'll look at my files. I think it was vol. 1 or 2 of
SAGETRIEB and he's arguing that Oppen and Zukofsky can't be understood
via the Pound-Williams axis. Now that I think of it, the essay deals
more with Zukofsky than with Oppen but the point holds because Burt is
talking about the Objectivists in a broader way.
Best, Marjorie P.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 23:14:12 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ryan Knighton <knighton@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: doing the one-two writing/teaching
In-Reply-To: <91006.mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu> from "Charles Alexander" at Jul
17, 95 10:41:00 pm
Charles Alexander asked David Kellog, and I'm paraphrasing, If we
don't teach poetry as art, then what do we teach it as.
Well, I'd like to butt in, if I may. I haven't taught poetry, yet.
But the first alternative that jumps to my mind is poetry as symbolic
action (Burke). Genres and formal registers as the signatures of
a or many discursive communities. I suppose, if this is not teaching
it as "art", then this goes back to--oh god, no==poetry as politics
and authority (or authorities). I'll stop here because i don't want
to go out there today. I'm feeling fragile.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 01:35:33 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Niedecker/Loy/George
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9507171601.A543191523-0100000@HULAW1.HARVARD.EDU> from
"Willa Jarnagin" at Jul 17, 95 04:28:11 pm
Further for Willa J. (thanks):
You might enjoy, if you havent seen it, my colleague Jenny
Penberthy's collection of Niedecker's letters to Zukofsky. The
letters dart and pin almost as nicely as do the poems.
Oh, Cambridge University Press, 1993.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 02:28:40 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: recent future reading
>Various chunks of Ron Silliman's Alphabet - Ron, when you wrote a week
or
>two ago about not revising much in the Alphabet, did you also mean
that you
>don't rearrange the order of sentences?
>
Well, I regularly keep a notebook of sentences as they occur to me and
for some projects (as with the still-in-progress K section of the
Alphabet, Ketjak2: Caravan of Affect) I use them a lot. With others not
at all. Otherwise, no, I don't rearrange the order of sentences.
>Progress by Barrett Watten - this month's book for the Seattle reading
>group (looking at Mike Magoolaghan's list, he seems to think he can
get by
>with just reading the (very good) new Aerial on Watten. Now _that_,
Mike,
>would be pretentious);
Progress remains one of my two or three favorite books in the universe.
Enjoy!
Ron
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 05:45:35 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Marisa A Januzzi <jma5@COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: misreadings/Noakes (a bit l-o-n-g...)
In-Reply-To: <300b292c5381002@maroon.tc.umn.edu>
It is really such a pleasure to post to this list (esp. at 4:30AM!)--
thanks to all (Ryan, Rod, Steve, Maria, Burt, Maria, and several
back-channelers) who ask and rescue so intriguingly.
Susan Noakes' essay "On the Superficiality of Women" is in a collection
she edited with Clayton Koelb, called THE COMPARATIVE PERSPECTIVE ON
LITERATURE (Cornell UP 1988). Elements of the argument may well appear
in her book TIMELY READING: BETWEEN EXEGESIS AND INTERPRETATION-- which I
haven't seen, but whose title illustrates, I'd guess, her attempt to
re-mark the dichotomous western repertoire of 'figures of reading'
(good/bad, active/passive, penetrating/superficial, legitimate/illegitimate,
male/female). Noakes reads Bonaventure, Dante, Sterne, Rousseau, and
Flaubert for depictions of female misreaders whose "superficial reading is
an indicator of moral deficiency" (it ain't hard for her to find them
there) not jest to show that this is a privileged topos in western lit.,
but also (she hopes) to ease the impasse in the field of hermeneutics
(1988: deconstruction & its critics) by questioning the meaning of these
obsessively dichotomous signs of reading. (well, okay, 'jest' was a joke!)
As I reread the piece, I felt that it was a shame that Noakes doesn't
just recuperate this figure of the cheeky "suerficial" misreader for
feminist or otherwise devious purposes, which is what I think Hejinian
does at times, especially in MY LIFE. Of course I would have to work a
lot harder to make this argument run smoothly (for one thing, I'm working
with a model of poetic text materialized AS a sort of reading.. for
another, I'm nowhere near my copy of Hejinian's book.)
The word 'misreading' was rescued ably by Steve-- thanks Steve!-- and
I wld like to add jazz improvisation to his suggested list of its kindred
techniques (palimpsest, serial form). Hejinian absolutely seems to me a
'clean' writer: very careful with/in her writing, working word by word
and even syllable by syllable to create patterns and inviting drifts of
meaning. It seems paradoxically controlled-- and yet-- I saw her read at
Temple a year or so back, and was struck by the way she tossed the pages to
the side, once read. She even called attention to the gesture as one she
picked up from watching jazz musicians perform, and it really brought the
element of purposive play from within her work.
Rod Smith's posting, then, interested me: I think when anyone mines the
less 'controllable' resources of language profoundly-- the results look
somehow 'awry,' a-miss, unmasterful... this is worse when the writer's
female and others (!editors!) all too readily question their
'mastery' of the language. This happened with Dickinson and it happened
with Loy-- both of whom are, like Hejinian of course-- miles ahead of
their readers. Like Maria I am readily engrossed by writers who seem to
be "getting the idea just a little bit wrong accidentally on purpose"--
and end up reinventing the medium in the process.
Just to clarify my original post, then, borrowing from Maria's almost
miraculous paraphrase: "Langpo 'enacts' or literalizes a process of (an
arguably politicized or politicizable) 'mis'reading that is traditionally
associated with or practiced by women"-- 'women' understood as
discursive entities (Noakes' female misreaders: Eve, Francesca, Emma
Bovary...), as flesh-and-blood-and-soul language practitioners, and as
textual operations or characters within language itself.
Silly, probably, in these last 5AM formulations... but-- tenable?
Marisa <jma5@columbia.edu>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 02:52:03 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Gnostic Howe?
Rae, you wrote,
>
> "You ask if there are any Gnostics left in poetry (since the
beats). I would suggest Fanny Howe."
I would love to learn more (particularly since I tend to think Fanny
among the most underappreciated poets of my generation). I love the
poetry, but my lack of the terms here always prevents me from seeing
her lyrics, even at their most openly spiritual, as Gnostic. Can you
give an example of how it informs a particular poem?
Ron
rsillima@ix.netcom.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 23:26:54 +0000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: cris cheek <cris@SLANG.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Gnostic Poets
Supporting Rae's suggestion of Fanny Howe.
Adding an English poet and performance / installation artist Brian Catling.
And the poet David Miller.
love and love
cris
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 06:38:40 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rachel Loden <74277.1477@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: who is Gaspara Stampa
Marisa,
Found this in _Rilke, a Life_ by Wolfgang Leppmann:
"While working on _Malte Laurids Brigge_, he became engrossed
once more in the type of unrequited love, transcending its
object, that he found represented by women like the Renaissance
poetess Gaspara Stampa..."
Reading a little in this book makes me long for an antidote of
Kafka, or at least Woody Allen: "Getting through the night is
becoming harder and harder. Last evening, I had the uneasy
feeling that some men were trying to break into my room to
shampoo me. But why? I kept imagining I saw shadowy forms, and
at 3 a.m. the underwear I had draped over a chair resembled the
Kaiser on roller skates. When I finally did fall asleep, I
had that same hideous nightmare in which a woodchuck is trying
to claim my prize at a raffle. Despair."
Hope the (Stampa) reference helps--
Rachel Loden
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 23:27:05 +0000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: cris cheek <cris@SLANG.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Randomising Text Generation
from Treknobabble:
To amplify the resonant efficiency would not be logical, because the theta
tube would then create the holographic incursion.
It's just possible that the trans-warp conduit would decelerate the binary
wave, but only if we enhance the gravitational carrier and stabilize the
artificial particle!
It's just possible that the adaptive micro-replication would decelerate the
temporal multiplex, but only if we analyze the anti graviton and shatter
the replicative magnetic!
If we can redirect the cytherian entity, we might be able to inhibit the
proto tunnel and decode the metagenic plasma!
To create the alignment grid would not be logical, because the replicative
thrust would then resonate the magnetic transporter.
Captain, I canna encrypt the cloud because the artificial warp is about to
enhance the cloaked carrier!
To destabilize the interstellar alignment would not be logical, because the
molecular pattern would then decode the localized echo.
It's just possible that the containment hologram would stabilize the static
flux, but only if we decay the non-linear signature and amplify the
servo-mechanical shield!
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 08:57:22 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David McAleavey <dmca@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU>
Subject: Oppen & Heidegger, etc.
In-Reply-To: <199507170403.AAA16609@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>
Years ago I explored a little Heidegger in connection with Oppen.
I do believe Oppen was affected by H., validated in his perception of the
wondrousness of the moment, or of at least some moments of existential
focus & attunement (related to the Heideggerian notion of "clearing").
No doubt Oppen was also affected by Wittgenstein; and by modern
mathematics; and other philosophers.
When I spent a couple of weeks with George and Mary in January 1978, in
S.F., examining their library, his notes, and speaking with them several
hours a day, I found a copy of Heidegger on the table beside the reading
chair in their kitchen/dining room/living room, right beside the box of
fig newtons. But George said to me, "I don't know what I really got out
of that [referring to Heidegger] -- I don't really understand it," -- or
words which I took to have that meaning. He was already complaining a lot
about his loss of memory (though he actually appeared unimpeded, and to be
able to recall a great deal), and his being somewhat befuddled by his
earlier self's seeming to have been nourished by Heidegger =could=
conceivably be explained as relating to the onset of weakened intellectual
acumen due to senility. Or it could be explained by the older man's
judgment that his younger self hadn't known as much as much as he'd
thought at the time. Which could be correct or incorrect.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 09:41:15 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Kellogg <kellogg@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>
Subject: Re: doing the one-two writing/teaching
In-Reply-To: <91006.mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu>
On Mon, 17 Jul 1995, Charles Alexander wrote:
> "Not all of us teach poetry as `art,' either."
>
> David Kellogg, could you explain this statement? If not art, then what? Or
> perhaps we have different definitions of art?
My own work focuses on poetry as a social field -- a discourse which, like
any other, has certain self-emerging rules, codes of reproduction, and so
forth. I want to analyze this field without isolating certain things as
"art." Rather, I analyze the very process of such isolation which goes on
very well without my help, thank you very much. This is not to exclude
perspectives which art-ify the subject, only to ensure that other
perspectives, including my rather sociological one, are not barred from
the get-go.
For more info: I suppose this is the time to mention my essay forthcoming
in *Cultural Critique*, who knows when, this summer or fall, called
"Literary History and the Problems of Oppositional Practice in
Contemporary Poetry." It makes an argument for the usefulness of a
concept of a social field, which I call "the poetic," bearing roughly the
same resemblance to poetry as "sexuality" does to "sex" in Foucault.
Cheers,
David
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Kellogg The moment is at hand.
University Writing Program Take one another
Duke University and eat.
Durham, NC 27708
kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 09:46:51 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Kellogg <kellogg@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>
Subject: Re: doing the one-two writing/teaching
In-Reply-To: <199507180614.XAA00431@fraser.sfu.ca>
On Mon, 17 Jul 1995, Ryan Knighton wrote:
> Charles Alexander asked David Kellog, and I'm paraphrasing, If we
> don't teach poetry as art, then what do we teach it as.
>
> Well, I'd like to butt in, if I may. I haven't taught poetry, yet.
> But the first alternative that jumps to my mind is poetry as symbolic
> action (Burke). Genres and formal registers as the signatures of
> a or many discursive communities. I suppose, if this is not teaching
> it as "art", then this goes back to--oh god, no==poetry as politics
> and authority (or authorities). I'll stop here because i don't want
> to go out there today. I'm feeling fragile.
Righto! Though we don't need the self-justification of political ends to
rationalize the analysis of the workings of a community. If there's no
outside such communities (Burke), texts (Derrida), fields (Bourdieu), then
transcendence is a sham anyway, and political as well as artistic forms of
liberation need to be qualified.
Cheers,
David
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Kellogg The moment is at hand.
University Writing Program Take one another
Duke University and eat.
Durham, NC 27708
kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 09:48:51 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Kellogg <kellogg@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Filet O Soul
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.950717115441.10840D-100000@interchg.ubc.ca>
I would have thought that this list would have no patience with the word
"soul" if only because it occupies 50% of the ever-so-romantic Helen
Vendler's new book title, *Soul Says* (which title is taken from a poem of
Jorie Graham's).
Cheers,
David
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Kellogg The moment is at hand.
University Writing Program Take one another
Duke University and eat.
Durham, NC 27708
kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 07:23:58 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM>
Subject: Re: manipulators
luigi bob drake, thanks a lot for mentioning TextMangler and Deconstructor.
While looking for these programs this morning, I found what should be a
useful website for John Geraets, Bruce Malcolm, and anyone else interested
in algorithmically distorting previously written text. The page is called
<Computer Generated Writing> & the URL is
<http://www.uio.no/~mwatz/c-g.writing>.
From this page you can download most of the programs previously mentioned
and many others for Macintosh, IBM, and Unix machines. There are also links
to related sites, some of which generate text while you wait. For example,
if there are any graduate students who haven't chosen a dissertation topic
on the list, there's a link to a site that generates postmodern thesis
abstracts.
I downloaded a few programs, but won't have a chance to try them out for a
day or two.
Herb Levy
herb@eskimo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 10:12:39 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Judy Schwartz <JSCHWA@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 16 Jul 1995 to 17 Jul 1995
In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 18 Jul 1995 00:01:25 -0400 from
<LISTSERV@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
In reply to Shaunanne Tangney's message of July 17 (abou Cixous and the soul
being in line with the body): I support this idea, but I would suggest it
came about much earlier, i.e. Walt Whitman: "Was somebody asking to see the
soul?/See, your own shape and countenance, persons,/substances, beasts, the
trees, the running rivers,/the rocks and sands."
--Judy Schwartz
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 10:19:11 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Judy Schwartz <JSCHWA@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 16 Jul 1995 to 17 Jul 1995
In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 18 Jul 1995 00:01:25 -0400 from
<LISTSERV@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
On July 16 Lindz Williamson wrote: "The mind and body are needed in order
to function in life, but a soul is need in death." I find this difficult
to contend with, as it implies first a strangely robotic view of living beings
, (although I know western tradition would support a kind of separation of the
two) and second, an insistence on the Christian view of the soul, which seems
to negate what I find most vital to the line of poetry descending from the
Imagist/Objectivist tradition. George Oppen used the word "faith" to describe
his poetics (and here I will quote him from Michael Heller's book on the
Objectivists): "faith" "that the nouns do refer to something; that it's there
, that it's true, the whole implication of these nouns; that appearances repres
ent reality, whether or not they misrepresent it." I like this use of the
word "faith," and feel that term with strongly religious connotations can shed
light on secular poetry, and, in so doing, be reclaimed so to speak. I guess
my point here is that I am sorry to see the word "soul" condemned to "death,"
when it has so much to offer to the living.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 11:01:44 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "J. H. Krick" <krickjh@MCGRAW-HILL.COM>
Subject: Imagining Beckett's Notebooks
Hello List,
Lately I've been thinking a lot about the notebooks
(journals? diaries?) of Samuel Beckett. He must certainly
have kept some, and imagining what they might contain has
filled a few idle moments rather roundly.
Where are they? What has become of them? Is anyone at work
editing them or do they languish somewhere, not to see the
light of day for years hence? Does anyone know anything
about this?
I should mention that my interest in notebooks, diaries, and
journals runs far beyond fantasizing about Beckett's
possible jottings. My groovy, now, a-go-go lifestyle only
allows me to read for pleasure a very little bit, certainly
not with the sustained attention required to complete even a
short novel read in a linear fashion in a reasonable amount
of time. Thus I like things that can be dipped into almost
anywhere, at any time, without the need to maintain any sort
of continuity. (Like poetry).
Some examples of the genre I've been through are Gide's
notebooks, a little volume of Ionesco called, I believe,
"Past/Present, Present/Past," a number of Antaeus devoted to
the form, John Cheever's journal, and, and of course Kafka,
uh....others. Can anyone recommend any of this sort of writing that I
should know about?
I suppose this thing could lead into a more general
discussion (as these things seem to do) of whether the
author should (does?) have a concious literary intent in
journalizing. Can such a thing be avoided? Can someone write
a journal which is REALLY not intended for another reader?
Lurking here,
John Krick
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 11:16:14 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X
From: Alan Golding <ACGOLD01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject: Various
Associate Professor of English, U. of Louisville
Phone: (502)-852-5918; e-mail: acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu
Someone (sorry I forget who) recently mentioned a Lawrence Rainey essay on HD
that apparently calls her a minor poet because she didn't write manifestoes or
publicly articulate a poetics outside her poetry. I'd be interested to see
this--can you please provide the full reference? If this summary is accurate,
I find it mind-boggling that this argument can still get made. But then it's
not so long ago that a highly regarded Dickinson scholar, David Porter, was
questioning ED's "majority" ("divine majority"?) for the same reason.
Gale, thanks for the wonderful, moving quotations from Oppen. Every time I
re-encounter him, which I try to do as often as possible, I'm reminded what a
great human being he was as well as a great poet.
On another subject, does the list know about Robert Sheppard's ongoing labor
of love, Pages, subtitled "resources for the linguistically innovative
poetries" of the UK? Many of you will, but perhaps some won't. It's a great
resource for texts of and information on current "experimental" British
poetries, and the arrival of recent issues on Cris Cheek and John Wilkinson
coupled with the metion of Glyn Maxwell prompted me to mention it. Each issue
of Pages is about 20-25 pages, around half or so devoted to new work by the
writer and the other half to a couple of short essays on his/her work and a
bibliography. I've found it a great way to keep in touch with and learn more
about recent interesting British work. Issues beyond those I've mentioned have
included (I'm working from memory here) Hazel Smith, Ulli Freer, Gilbert
Adair, Adrian Clarke. Robert plans twelve issues on 12 writers, and I'm not
sure where we're up to, but they're available from Robert Sheppard, 239
Lessingham Avenue, London SW17. Single issues are 3 pounds sterling, or all 12
for 12 pounds (though I paid in dollars). Talk your libraries into getting
them too!
I lost a ton of mail from around 6/30 to 7/12 in a system crash, so if anyone
wrote to me then, please try again. It's not that I'm ignoring you!
Alan
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 08:41:38 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM>
Subject: Alphabetic Progress (was Re: recent future reading)
>>Various chunks of Ron Silliman's Alphabet - Ron, when you wrote a week
>or
>>two ago about not revising much in the Alphabet, did you also mean
>that you
>>don't rearrange the order of sentences?
>>
>
>Well, I regularly keep a notebook of sentences as they occur to me and
>for some projects (as with the still-in-progress K section of the
>Alphabet, Ketjak2: Caravan of Affect) I use them a lot. With others not
>at all. Otherwise, no, I don't rearrange the order of sentences.
Thanks for the clarification, Ron. I was thinking mostly of the extreme
patterning of sentence-types in Garfield (if "patterning" is the right term
for what looks like pretty even distribution) or the 12 twelve-line verses
that read like parody/homages early on in Oz, but also some of the slighter
stylistic differences between months in Jones (which otherwise reads like
its in chron order like the other sentence-a-day leter/sections).
>
>>Progress by Barrett Watten - this month's book for the Seattle reading
>>group (looking at Mike Magoolaghan's list, he seems to think he can
>get by
>>with just reading the (very good) new Aerial on Watten. Now _that_,
>Mike,
>>would be pretentious);
>
>Progress remains one of my two or three favorite books in the universe.
>Enjoy!
I hadn't gotten around to Progress when it came out, but I'm liking it a
lot. & now that my teasing aside to Mike has been posted to <poetics>
_twice_, I'd better have some things to say about it in a couple of weeks.
Herb Levy
herb@eskimo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 08:41:54 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM>
Subject: Re: the one-two writing/teaching
Hearing poetry read aloud is great: everyone teaching poetry should read
some, get their students to read and bring in poets and/or tapes of poets.
& getting students to try writing poetry is a cool idea, too. But it won't
work with every student, every teacher, or at every school.
And where do you draw the line on something like this?
Do students have to write novels to understand the way of thinking that
novelists bring to bear on their work (Do they have to write one in the
style of Kathy Acker and then one in the style of William Gaddis and then
one in the style of Angela Carter and then one in the style of Edmund
Crispin, so they get a sense of the breadth of what passes for novels
today?)
Do they have to know how to paint to take art history classes?
For that matter, do you have to know how to sew to wear clothes or to like
the way they look? Do you have to be able to fix a car (I won't even say
build one) to be able to drive?
One of the problems people have in learning advanced math & science comes
from being expected to recreate the thinking used in labwork or proofs,
without having enough background to understand where the thinking comes
from.
& let's face it, poetry isn't much less arcane than math or science for
most people.
This is probably one of those posts for which I need the disclaimer that
I'm not a poet.
I'm not a teacher, either.
Herb Levy
herb@eskimo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 11:48:06 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jorge Guitart <MLLJORGE@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Organization: University at Buffalo
Subject: location of the soul
the location of the soul in the body by helene cixous ranks as one of the
towering intellectual achievements of our time.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 12:36:16 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: innocence and language
In message <199507180337.XAA10812@conciliator.acsu.buffalo.edu> UB Poetics
discussion group writes:
> > was being read/lauded on the poetics list. she also has an essay in
> > the jonathan boyarin collection i mentioned a few months ago, from
> > UMN press, on the anthropology of reading (can't remember the main
> > title, book's in office, i;m at home)
>
> Maria, is that _The Ethnography of reading_?
yeah, that must be it.--md
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 13:33:29 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rod Smith <AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Holy Soul Jelly Roll
Allen Ginsberg's location of the soul within the jelly roll ranks as one of
the great gastronomical achievements of our times. Yum yum.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 11:00:07 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Shaunanne Tangney <st@SCS.UNR.EDU>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 16 Jul 1995 to 17 Jul 1995
In-Reply-To: <950718.101619.EDT.JSCHWA@TEMPLEVM>
On Tue, 18 Jul 1995, Judy Schwartz wrote:
> In reply to Shaunanne Tangney's message of July 17 (abou Cixous and the soul
> being in line with the body): I support this idea, but I would suggest it
> came about much earlier, i.e. Walt Whitman: "Was somebody asking to see the
> soul?/See, your own shape and countenance, persons,/substances, beasts, the
> trees, the running rivers,/the rocks and sands."
> --Judy Schwartz
>
oh, yes, absolutely--lovely! old Walt!
--everything is always already written--
--ShaunAnne
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 14:26:04 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: Re: Soul Train
Today in the Globe and Mail, the TV reviewer in talking about a
documentary on Antelope Valley CA referrd to the suburban housing
developments there as "souless". What does that mean? On the CBC a
couple of weeks ago I heard that 1955 lecture in which Leonard
Bernstein explains jazz. At one point, he compares a song done by
Bessy Smith and the same song done by an opera type. "Souless" might
be a good word to describe the second version.
And then there's Mr. Olson who seems to have anticipated Ms. Cixious
on this point:
. . . Here then wld be what is left out? Or what is
physiologically even the 'hard' (solid, palpable), that one's
life is informed from and by one's own literal body--as well,
that is, as the whole inner mechanism, which keeps us so damn
busy (like eating, sleeping, urinating, dying there, by
deteriorations of sd 'functions' of sd 'organs')--that this
mid-thing between, which is what gets 'buried,' like, the
flesh? bones, muscles, ligaments, etc., what one uses,
literally, to get about etc
that this is 'central,' that is--in this 1/2 of the
picture--what they call THE SOUL, the intermediary, the
intervening thing, the interruptor, the resistor. The self.
--Proprioception, 1965
Best,
Mike
mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 14:35:08 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: HD and Rainey
In-Reply-To: <POETICS%95071811265598@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> from "Alan Golding"
at Jul 18, 95 11:16:14 am
Dear Alan:
Yeah, the essay is in a collection called *Representing Modernist
Texts*. It's an interesting essay. His main target is certain
tendencies in HD scholarship which, from my point of view, can use
some healthy criticism. The problem is that Rainey's miscogynism gets
in the way, he's so anxious to tar feminist criticism generally. The
attack on HD is by way of proving that all those girls are wrong and
HD's really not all that good a poet. The point about her being an
intellectual light weight because she didn't engage in polemics about
poetics is part of his making of that case.
There was recently a big faluffle about it over on the HD list. I'd be
interested to know what you think after you read it.
Best,
Mike
mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 14:21:48 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Imagining Beckett's Notebooks
J Krick writes:
> Hello List,
>
> Lately I've been thinking a lot about the notebooks
> (journals? diaries?) of Samuel Beckett.
> I should mention that my interest in notebooks, diaries, and
> journals runs far beyond fantasizing about Beckett's
> possible jottings. Can anyone recommend any of this sort of writing
that I should know about?
off the top, joe orton's diaries are a real kick. dorothy wordsworth's journals
are the best vacation reading i've ever enjoyed. i think jenny penberthy, whose
name was recently mentioned, is editing lorinne niedecker's journals. then
there's always allen ginsberg's indian journals. --md
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 14:33:58 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: the one-two writing/teaching
herb levy writes:
> Hearing poetry read aloud is great: everyone teaching poetry should read
> some, get their students to read and bring in poets and/or tapes of poets.
>
> & getting students to try writing poetry is a cool idea, too. But it won't
> work with every student, every teacher, or at every school.
>
> And where do you draw the line on something like this?
>
well, the purposes are different. i don't do it only so that students can get
a sense of being "inside" a particular writer's process, though that's part of
it; sometimes, for the more analytically minded, it helps to illuminate what it
is they think characterizes a writer's style. then we can discuss that, whether
it's so or not, etc. for example, when i have students imitate a writer who is
African American, often the students use what they think is Black English in
ways tht the writer never does --in third person narration, when the writer only
uses it in dialogue, or for characters that, in fact, use standard english. or,
for example with Lyn Hejinian's My Life, some people wrote about their
childhoods without using any other aspects of her style...in imitating ginsberg,
some use lots of "obscenities" and others simply repeat the word "holy" at the
beginning of lists of their friends and favorite hangouts. so its a useful
exercise in several different ways. sometimes simply by emulating the sentence
structure of, say, emily bronte students stretch their own syntactic
imaginations.
and i do envy those who can sew their own clothes and fix their own cars, and do
believe my life would be richer, or i'd be less intimidated by cars and clothes,
if i knew even a few rudimentaries. i especially wish i knew how to brawl,
physically, cuz i envy the insouciance with which people who do know how to take
care of themselves in that way enter high-risk places at high-risk times of
day/night.--md
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 15:29:19 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kenneth Goldsmith <kgolds@PANIX.COM>
Subject: computer generated text WWW site
There is an amazing WWW page dedicated to computer generated text
complete with zillions of programs and resources. It's wild.
http://www.uio.no/~mwatz/c-g.writing/
peace,
kenny g
====================================================================
kgolds@panix.com
http://wfmu.org/~kennyg
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 16:14:56 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jorge Guitart <MLLJORGE@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Holy Soul Jelly Roll
In-Reply-To: <950718133328_35322246@aol.com>
Aristotle's location of the soul in the pineal gland ranks as one of the
great anatomical achievements of classical times, despite his having being
savaged by Allen Ginsberg almost in the same way that Steven P (in the
Language Instinct) savaged Saint Benjamin Lee Whorf (or Einstein Newton
to give an example from another field of human knowledge).
On Tue, 18 Jul 1995, Rod Smith wrote:
> Allen Ginsberg's location of the soul within the jelly roll ranks as one of
> the great gastronomical achievements of our times. Yum yum.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 14:47:11 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: who is Gaspara Stampa
rachel loden writes:
>
>
> Reading a little in this book makes me long for an antidote of
> Kafka, or at least Woody Allen: "Getting through the night is
> becoming harder and harder. Last evening, I had the uneasy
> feeling that some men were trying to break into my room to
> shampoo me. But why? I kept imagining I saw shadowy forms, and
> at 3 a.m. the underwear I had draped over a chair resembled the
> Kaiser on roller skates. When I finally did fall asleep, I
> had that same hideous nightmare in which a woodchuck is trying
> to claim my prize at a raffle. Despair."
>
>
this is, i take it, woody allen? i'm tempted to say, in a paroxysm of ethnic
chauvinism, "but rilke could never write anything like this!" granted, allen
becomes tiresomely predictable at times, but his more subtle confreres, for
example kafka, lenny bruce et al, have that pretension-deflating knack that
cynthia ozick, max weinreich, benjamin harshav and others have associated with a
"yiddish consciousness." somehow, i feel that i'm introducing a potentially
explosive element into the list by saying this --don't flame me too badly,but
i'm curious about what y'all think, folks.
waiting for the other shoe to drop,
md
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 13:35:26 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Reginald Johanson <reginalj@SFU.CA>
Subject: soul
I've never seen the benefit of trying to define soul, or to try and
make it a less hazy or indistinct concept as some listers have been
trying to do--to the end of rejecting it as a meaningful idea/word.
It's a word that crops up in the presence of a sense of depth, it's a
word with no referent whatsoever except for this feeling of depth.
How, from a materialist perspective, is this a problem/threat?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 14:10:27 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Reginald Johanson <reginalj@SFU.CA>
Subject: soul
It seems that we could divide the listings on the issue of soul into
two general areas--an irritated an impatient rejection of the word
along materialistic lines, and a willingness to use the word and
entertain the idea along sensual lines--that is, a willingness to use
it in situations that seem to call for it.
I like the irreverence of Filet-o-Soul and Soul train and baby's got
soul and all of that. I guess I'm having a harder time understanding
the sense of impatience that comes through in some of the postings,
the desire to banish the idea altogether as an embarassing
anachronism. Just because it's used in pop songs and sappy poetry
doesn't make it nonsense, and just because it has been used by
repressive religion to authorize repression doesn't make it any less
of a present, pressing phenomenon. And it is just for this reason
that we can't talk about it without some heat.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 15:44:39 -0700
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From: Charles Watts <cwatts@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Recording of Spicer reading Language?
In-Reply-To: <199507172238.PAA00929@fraser.sfu.ca> from "Ryan Knighton" at Jul
17, 95 03:38:09 pm
Yeah, I'm still on the list. Ryan, you missed it. We (the Contemporary
Literature Collection at the Bennett Library, Simon Fraser University)
have a tape of Spicer reading, with Robin Blaser and Stan Persky, at the
New Design Gallery in Vancouver in June, 1965. He reads "Thing Language,"
"Intermissions," "Transformations," "Morphemics," "Phonemics," and
"Graphemics." We have another copy of a tape on which Spicer reads all
the foregoing, plus "Love Poems." I don't know -- haven't listened to
them in a long time -- whether they are two recordings of the same
reading or recordings of two separate readings, the one at the New Design
Gallery, the other at Warren Tallman's.
Anyone can listen to these tapes here at SFU. If someone wants a copy for
her own listening, she must apply to Spicer's literary executor, Robin
Blaser, for authorization to allow a copy to be made. And we'll need a
copy of that authorization on file in order to make the copy. Charges for
fast copying and postage would apply. And the understanding would be that
no further copies of that copy would be made.
Cheers,
Charles
>
> When I was researching Spicer for George I didn't come across one ( a
> reading of Language, that is. And that was my central focus). The
> Contemporary Lit. Collection here at Simon Fraser actually had one
> or two readings, I think, besides the Vancouver Lectures. I think
> Charles Watts is on the list still. He knows best. Charles?
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 18:03:01 -0500
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From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: adpoems
found this at the glasses store while getting my glasses "stripped" of their
"anti-reflective" coating --it's an ad for the KOURE eyeglass company. it's
titled "The Sunshine in Me and KOURE" and i'll give only the last sentence, my
favorite:
"As the sun goes down in the west making the sky blushing red, I'm wishing for
the another tomorrow and KOURE is always along beside me."
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 21:24:19 EST
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From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: innocence and language
okay, does anyone have an email address for Noakes, and the name of the
article on the anthropo. of reading would be nice to have too.
thanks so much.
burt
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 01:40:52 EDT
Reply-To: beard@metdp1.met.co.nz
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: beard@MET.CO.NZ
Subject: Bless my soul, a gnostic agnostic!
From: Reginald Johanson <reginalj@SFU.CA>
>I like the irreverence of Filet-o-Soul and Soul train and baby's got
>soul and all of that. I guess I'm having a harder time understanding
>the sense of impatience that comes through in some of the postings,
>the desire to banish the idea altogether as an embarassing
>anachronism.
I guess if any sense of impatience came through in my posts, it's because the
word "soul" has so many different meanings that it leads to the risk of real
misunderstanding. If I said, for example, that "my poetry comes from my soul"
and someone replies, "ah, you mean the part of you that lives on after you
die", then that is NOT what I meant. When soul=mind, soul=consciousness, soul=
emotions, soul=body and soul=immortal spirit, communication really breaks down.
I know that misreadings and ambiguities are not only (to some extent)
inevitable within language, they can be desirable as well. It's just that when
a word has specific implications for some people, and these implications are
definitely NOT what I want to convey, then I cease to find that word useful,
either in poetry or prose.
For example, when Lindz talks of the mind and body being extinguishable, but
not the soul, then this is not what I want to say. I like Shaunanne's
formulation of the soul being the consciousness - this is closer to the
mysteries of selfhood that I think a lot of people mean when speaking casually
of the "soul". The word "consciousness" does not require the soul to live
independently of the body (a fascinating book on consciousness, including
stories by Borges and Stanislaw Lem, and essays and dialogues by Douglas R
Hofsdatder and Daniel C Dennett, is _The Mind's I_, edited by Hofsdatder and
Dennett), but does lead to a broad discourse on selfhood, subjectivity and what
it means to be an "I".
However, it's not what I'd use to describe the source of my poetry. The word
"mind", while it may seem hopelessly broad and general, sums up for me the vast
range of mental processes - from the neural structures that shape my aural and
visual perceptions, the unconscious machinations of the dream-state, the net of
language in which my ego is caught, to the conscious cognitive processes that
constitute my judgement of structure, rhythm and image - that result in words
being set down upon the page.
Moving on, I'm intrigued by the discussion of "gnostic poets". What does
everyone take the word "gnostic" to mean? My dictionary defines it as "having
esoteric spiritual knowledge" - which would include theologians, channellers,
druids, tohunga, pantheists and a slew of other mystical heirophants - but I
assume that there is a more precise definition. To me, as an agnostic, it would
mean "everything that I'm not". I remember an anecdote about Bertrand Russell
being imprisoned, and his gaoller asking him "Religion?" so that he could fill
out his form. When Russell replied "agnostic", the warder furrowed his brows,
then looked at him thoughtfully and said "Well, I guess we all worship the same
god, don't we?"
On another tack, I think it was Marjorie who said that our generation's poetic/
philosophical mentors were Stein/Wittgenstein, whereas the previous generation
had had Pound/Heidegger or Whitehead/Olson. So, for someone like me whose
philosophical mentors include Popper and Ayer, perhaps Alan Turing, or looking
back to Diderot and d'Holbach, who would occupy the poetic side of the
relation?
Just a few thoughts,
Tom.
______________________________________________________________________________
I/am a background/process, shrunk to an icon. | Tom Beard
I am/a dark place. | beard@metdp1.met.co.nz
I am less/than the sum of my parts... | Auckland, New Zealand
I am necessary/but not sufficient, | http://metcon.met.co.nz/
and I shall teach the stars to fall | nwfc/beard/www/hallway.html
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 19:12:09 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Recording Angel
In-Reply-To: <199507180400.VAA26491@isc.SJSU.EDU>
Since there appears to be some confusion on this matter, let me assure
all and sundry that any tape I offer to dub for anybody is either in the
public domain or has been made, by me, with the permission of the author.
The other confusion is due to my own hurry in writing. The Brathwaite
LP's were, indeed of _The Arrivants_, and include Rights of Passage, not
Middle Passage. The later tapes I made of Brathwaite include brief
passages from Middle Passage. These are not for commercial circulation
or rebroadcast, but can be listened to by them's what's doing research.
By the way, I've recently discovered that there is quite a bot of poetry
available on tape from the Pacifica Archive here in L.A. at reasonable
rates. Quite a bit as well as a bot. Much of this material is generally
not known about, as it was never distributed through stores (nor made
available on late night TV.) I've found one fascinating tape from a '64
poetry conference of some type held in San Francsico; the tape I've got
beginbs in the middle of things, so I'm nosing around Pacifica's
microfiche to see what else may have been taped that week.
Apologies agin for all the flubs in my posts -- the cursor keys on this
borrowed system don't do what you'd expect -- When I am in San Jose I am
able to clean up the text before I send it -- but then I miss out on the
sherr pleasures of "beginbs."
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 19:14:24 -0700
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Benjamin and Film?
In-Reply-To: <199507180400.VAA26491@isc.SJSU.EDU>
A colleague here asks if anyone knows of good critical work in film
studies that makes extensive use of Walter Benjamin's work.
I know plenty about Benjamin, but little about film criticism. Anybody
out there have any titles they can think of?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 12:43:31 GMT+1200
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: Re: doing the one-two writing...
thanks, Rae, for the name, I haven't seen anything by Fanny Howe
since I had a subscription to United Artists, so will have to check this out.
Really dualist, really being lost in a fallen worlds, looking for
outs for the poor soul?
I think it was reading Olson that led me to read Henry Corbin's
Avicenna and the Visionary Recital, which has a good deal to do
with a poetics that is "soul" orientated.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 23:45:08 -0400
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From: Marisa A Januzzi <jma5@COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: Stampa/bedside
In-Reply-To: <300c0fb7250a002@maroon.tc.umn.edu>
Rilke dragging as Woody Allen: thanks Rachel Loden, for making me squint
a lot at my screen and wish i'd gone to bed earlier last night!! Thanks
too for the citation.
Note to John Krick: the question is, how much do you like wondering if
you're a reading voyeur?! Better sometimes even than journals are writers
love letters. Arthur Cravan's letters to Mina Loy for instance are amazing,
but only in French I think-- like Musset's for George Sand, as some
blurbwriting stunt artist says.
Woolf's journals are a sort of endless summer of disconnected wonderful
reading.
And somebody ought to agree to publish Ted Berrigan's, which are
full of unexpected twists. ----Marisa
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 23:07:51 -0500
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jonathan Brannen <jbrannen@INFOLINK.MORRIS.MN.US>
Subject: Re: The Recording Angel
Concerning dubs of commercial recordings: thanks to the Audio Home
Recording Act of 1992, all blank audio media when purchased contain
a tariff. These funds are intended to compensate copyright holders
for loss of royalties that may result from home recordings. In other
words every time you buy a blank cassette you are automatically making
a royalty payment to a fund divied up between ASCAP, BMI and SESAC,
organizations which exist to collect royalties for and distribute
royalties to the copyright holder. Distribution is, of course,
based on sales statistics. So the chances are much better that
ASCAP will assume that the dubs being made are of Michael Jackson's
HISTORY rather that Brathwaite's MIDDLE PASSAGE and give him the
cash (give Jackson, that is) instead of, unfortunately, Brathwaite.
The point is that although the recording industry doesn't want this
to become common knowledge, you purchase the right to make a legal
dub of commercially recorded materials every time you buy a blank
tape as long as that dub isn't intended for resale. That less
commercial "artists" will never see any of that money is an injustice,
but it is a separate issue.
Jonathan Brannen
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 00:01:16 -0500
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Brian W Horihan <hori0001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: who is Gaspara Stampa
In-Reply-To: <300c0fb7250a002@maroon.tc.umn.edu>
Marisa--this is kinda late, but if you're still wondering here's
a note from my copy of Duino Elegies:
"She was born in 1523, in Padua, of a noble Milanese family, by
whom, as her contemporaries would have said, she was 'exquisitely'
educated. In Venice, at the age of 26, she fell desperately in love with
the young Collaltino, Count of Collalto and Lord of Treviso. After a few
years of mutual happiness, he went to France to fight for Henry II,
forgot her, and consoled himself with other beauties. when at last he
returned, a kind of duty prevented him from openly breaking with the
woman he no longer loved. At first she was full of happiness; then she
began to learn the truth. He finally left her and married. She consoled
herself partly with other lovers and partly with religion, and died in
1554, at the age of 31. The whole story of her love for Collaltino is
recorded in some 200 sonnets..."
And on the subject of love letters (I mean yr suggestions, and
now mine, to John Krick, and not Gaspara's): Joyce has some really weird
letters to Molly around 1916 (?) when she was in Dublin, he away
somewhere on the continent, in which he demands she buy pretty
underclothes for herself...and something about a whip. --brian
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 01:33:12 -0400
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rod Smith <AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Holy Soul Jelly Roll
The pineal gland! That's where it is!
I can't beat that. Tho I would revise to say "TOWERING gastronomical
achievements of our time."
Re these discussions about soulsters, souling, circular solemnity. We don't
know, really, do we? So the folks who KNOW bygod abt the soul & the folks who
deny any existence of aforesaid, & are _completely_ convinced of such, _both_
deserve to be made fun of. That's not too much the way the conversation has
gone here-- but a bit. Those that front it as a completely subjective
experience are the only ones, I think, who are "right." Mark Wallace has an
interesting essay called "On Genre as Conversion Experience" in which he
points out that there are certain ways in which artistic communities can be
seen to mirror the behavior of religious communities. One has a "conversion
experience" to a particular form of artistic practice which one then defines
oneself with/by to the exclusion of other ways of writing/painting/thinking.
Which raises the interesting question of a seeming schism between a very real
conversion experience, a powerful spiritual experience, which leads, often,
to completely bogus behavior. Duchamp sd "God is man's stupidest idea." One
could twist that to mean "it's the most obvious." As a sometime buddha
wannabe I prefer to try to keep both in mind. I mean, after all, nothing
exists. . .
sort of.
--Rod
Jorge wrote:
>the location of the soul in the body by helene cixous ranks as one of the
>towering intellectual achievements of our time.
I wrote:
>Allen Ginsberg's location of the soul within the jelly roll ranks as one of
>the great gastronomical achievements of our times. Yum yum.
Jorge responded:
>Aristotle's location of the soul in the pineal gland ranks as one of the
>great anatomical achievements of classical times, despite his having being
>savaged by Allen Ginsberg almost in the same way that Steven P (in the
>Language Instinct) savaged Saint Benjamin Lee Whorf (or Einstein Newton
>to give an example from another field of human knowledge).
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 00:44:01 +0000
Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <jzitt@bga.com>
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@HUMANSYSTEMS.COM>
Organization: HumanSystems
Subject: Re: Imagining Beckett's Notebooks
On 18 Jul 95 at 14:21, maria damon wrote:
> off the top, joe orton's diaries are a real kick. dorothy wordsworth's journals
> are the best vacation reading i've ever enjoyed. i think jenny penberthy, whose
> name was recently mentioned, is editing lorinne niedecker's journals. then
> there's always allen ginsberg's indian journals. --md
There's also John Cage's "Diary: How to Improve the World (You Will
Only Make Matters Worse)", sections of which appeare in various of
his books from "A Year from Monday" on. There's a Wergo 10-(I
think)-CD set of his reading of them.
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/ Online Representative, Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 02:46:28 -0700
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: who is Woody Allen?
Several years ago when I was in Russia, Viktor Mazin, my translator
there, showed me a samizdat journal of American writing in Russian
translation devoted to Woody Allen, Louis Zukofsky and myself.
Ron
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 02:56:04 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: The Recording Angel
Aldon,
Clark Coolidge had a program on KPFA (Pacifica) in the late sixties
that was very NY School oriented, lots of fun to listen to (and was my
first exposure to Clark as well). Is that in the archives down there?
What about Jack Spicer's folk music programs (also from KPFA circa
1949-50)? I didn't start listening to KPFA until around 1958 when I got
an FM radio as a christmas present, but my understanding is that Jack &
Robin used to have singers and others into the studio and read and
drink red wine. David Gitin also had a program on KPFA in the 60s. I
remember him playing Olson, for example.
Things to look for in the Archives.
Have fun with your keyboards.
Ron
rsillima@ix.netcom.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 03:25:43 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Sarton & Spender
Just a note to acknowledge the passing of two poets over the weekend,
May Sarton & Stephen Spender. Never met Sarton. Played basketball with
Spender once, though, circa 1970.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 08:55:09 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rachel Loden <74277.1477@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Franz K.
Maria,
Here's Kafka (for real this time) on the "ethnic chauvinism"
you mention:
"What have I in common with Jews? I have hardly anything in
common with myself and should stand very quietly in a corner,
content that I can breathe."
Speaking as a Jew, I can't think of anything truer, or funnier
--or more Jewish--than that.
Rachel Loden
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 08:46:50 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jordan Davis." <Jordan70@AOL.COM>
Subject: hits of Pam
Poetics,
Up late last night and hearing a terrifying story about inhalant-abuse by
native-american children it occurred to me that a better formulation for the
shrine than Wittgen(stein) might be Ashbery/Deleuze...
I _must_ have a body, it's a moral necessity, a "requirement." And in the
first place, I must have a body because an obscure object lives in me. But,
right from this first argument, Leibniz's originality is tremendous. He is
not saying that only the body explains what is obscure in the mind. To the
contrary, the mind is obscure, the depths of the mind are dark, and this dark
nature is what explains and requires a body.
--Gilles Deleuze, _The Fold_, p. 85, UMn Press 1993
So is that why we have texts (even though we write the same poems over and
over)? Or, how do we read Olson (who pretty much transliterates Whitehead and
the historical society into verse) in a Wittgenstein-flooded world? Or, can
you read Olson without turning off your hearing aid? Is that what the
excellent Creeley-edited selected Olson is for, to move Olson across the
divide?
Jest curious,
Jordan
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 07:54:56 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM>
Subject: Re: Holy Soul Jelly Roll
>Allen Ginsberg's location of the soul within the jelly roll ranks as one of
>the great gastronomical achievements of our times. Yum yum.
Well Charles Mingus, for one, had a piece called My Jelly Roll Soul, on, I
think, the album titled "Oh Yeah" from the mid 1950s.
&, as long as people are dropping names right & left on the issue of soul=8A
Call me a pagan, but since McCullough & Weiner (among others) located the
mind in the body, I've always assumed that's where the soul was too.
Though I don't think they're the same thing.
Herb Levy
herb@eskimo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 07:55:15 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM>
Subject: Re: The Recording Angel
>Concerning dubs of commercial recordings: thanks to the Audio Home
>Recording Act of 1992, all blank audio media when purchased contain
>a tariff. These funds are intended to compensate copyright holders
>for loss of royalties that may result from home recordings. In other
>words every time you buy a blank cassette you are automatically making
>a royalty payment to a fund divied up between ASCAP, BMI and SESAC,
>organizations which exist to collect royalties for and distribute
>royalties to the copyright holder. Distribution is, of course,
>based on sales statistics. So the chances are much better that
>ASCAP will assume that the dubs being made are of Michael Jackson's
>HISTORY rather that Brathwaite's MIDDLE PASSAGE and give him the
>cash (give Jackson, that is) instead of, unfortunately, Brathwaite.
>The point is that although the recording industry doesn't want this
>to become common knowledge, you purchase the right to make a legal
>dub of commercially recorded materials every time you buy a blank
>tape as long as that dub isn't intended for resale. That less
>commercial "artists" will never see any of that money is an injustice,
>but it is a separate issue.
>
>Jonathan Brannen
Jonathan -
I brought up my concerns about ownership & copying tapes or texts for all
the reasons you raise here.
The real issue isn't the law. Copyright law is fucked in a big way,
especially as it pertains to sound recordings. Royalty payments are
collected and redistributed by monopolistic licensing companies (ASCAP &
BMI in the United States) who as you correctly describe it, only understand
the economics of big budget pop music.
The issue is who ends up getting paid for what uses of their work and the
morality of how payments are made for the "fair use" and "individual use"
aspects of the copyright statutes.
I think when you're talking about work with limited sales potential (like
poetry or new music) following the letter of the law doesnt always feel
like it's enough.
- H
Herb Levy
herb@eskimo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 07:55:22 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM>
Subject: Re: The Recording Angel
>Since there appears to be some confusion on this matter, let me assure
>all and sundry that any tape I offer to dub for anybody is either in the
>public domain or has been made, by me, with the permission of the author.
>
>The other confusion is due to my own hurry in writing. The Brathwaite
>LP's were, indeed of _The Arrivants_, and include Rights of Passage, not
>Middle Passage. The later tapes I made of Brathwaite include brief
>passages from Middle Passage. These are not for commercial circulation
>or rebroadcast, but can be listened to by them's what's doing research.
>
>By the way, I've recently discovered that there is quite a bot of poetry
>available on tape from the Pacifica Archive here in L.A. at reasonable
>rates. Quite a bit as well as a bot. Much of this material is generally
>not known about, as it was never distributed through stores (nor made
>available on late night TV.) I've found one fascinating tape from a '64
>poetry conference of some type held in San Francsico; the tape I've got
>beginbs in the middle of things, so I'm nosing around Pacifica's
>microfiche to see what else may have been taped that week.
Aldon -
I'm not trying to be weirdly puritanical about this. (But I realize that I
am being weirdly puritanical about this.)
Make copies of whatever you feel comfortable about, especially of those
things that Brathwaite approved. I assume that no one on this list would be
trying to make big bucks by bootlegging Brathwaite recordings. (I assume
that no one on this list would think they could make big bucks in this way,
but that's another issue.)
It's just that I've spent a lot of time working with composers who work
under a slightly different royalty situation than do writers, so I may
think about it differently than many people on this list.
As Jonathan Brannen posted elsewhere, when you're talking about something
with very little commercial potential, like spoken word or new music, how
royalties get distributed for recordings often has very little to do with
how many copies of something were sold.
To my mind, this makes the issue of what's right more important than what's
legal, but maybe I'm just funny that way. &, like I said earlier, I've
xeroxed and dubbed my share of copies and I'm sure I'll continue to do so
from time to time.
As to the Arrivants LPs; unless the record company screwed up big time on
filing the original copyright forms (to the extent that they were never
legally registered), they won't legally be in the public domain until long
after Brathwaite is dead.
As we all know, however, these recordings are long out of print, and it's
incredibly unlikely that they'll be reissued any time soon. So you be the
judge.
- H
Herb Levy
herb@eskimo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 11:42:32 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: A colleague of mine (who is also my wife) asked me to forward
this request to the List for reviewers and journals who would
review her novel,
and for the addresses of certain lists as she describes below.
thanks. -bk
Comments: cc: simmons@admin.njit.edu
From: ADMIN::SIMMONS 19-JUL-1995 10:40:29.21
To: KIMMELMAN
CC: SIMMONS
Subj: bulletin boards
I would like to have help locating bulletime boards with a particular
interest in contemporary American fiction, expecially multi-cultural
works. I am particularly interested in work by Asian Americans as I
am working on a book about Maxine Hong Kingston. I've recemt;u
recently finished a book on West Indian writer Jamaica Kincaid.
I am also looking for people interested in reviewing my novel,
"Dreams Like Thunder," published by Story Line press, favorably
reviewed in the NY Times and LA Times, and winner of the Oregon
Book Aaward for Fiction in a field that included Ken Kesey. The
novel is set on a little farm in Eastern Oregon over several days
in 1959, and seeks to examine the myth of the frontier that
continues to dominate the family's life into the 20th cenury.
For rview copies write: Joseph Bednarik, Story Line Press, 27006 Gap
Road, Brownsville, OR 97327-9718.
My address is: simmons@admin.njit.edu
Thanks for your help.
Diane Simmons
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 09:15:00 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM>
Subject: Re: the one-two writing/teaching
Maria Damon (whose name looks odd indeed, capitalized after seeing it
online all lower case for so long. I hope you don't mind, Maria) writes:
>herb levy writes:
>> Hearing poetry read aloud is great: everyone teaching poetry should read
>> some, get their students to read and bring in poets and/or tapes of poets.
>>
>> & getting students to try writing poetry is a cool idea, too. But it won't
>> work with every student, every teacher, or at every school.
>>
>> And where do you draw the line on something like this?
>>
>well, the purposes are different. i don't do it only so that students can get
>a sense of being "inside" a particular writer's process, though that's part of
>it; sometimes, for the more analytically minded, it helps to illuminate what it
>is they think characterizes a writer's style. then we can discuss that,
>whether
>it's so or not, etc. for example, when i have students imitate a writer who is
>African American, often the students use what they think is Black English in
>ways tht the writer never does --in third person narration, when the
>writer only
>uses it in dialogue, or for characters that, in fact, use standard
>english. or,
>for example with Lyn Hejinian's My Life, some people wrote about their
>childhoods without using any other aspects of her style...in imitating
>ginsberg,
>some use lots of "obscenities" and others simply repeat the word "holy" at the
>beginning of lists of their friends and favorite hangouts. so its a useful
>exercise in several different ways. sometimes simply by emulating the sentence
>structure of, say, emily bronte students stretch their own syntactic
>imaginations.
You've very eloquently described some of the value of having students
writing in the style of poems and poets they're studying. It's obviously a
good tool & you've gotten some really good results from it. It clearly can
help get at some levels of understanding (and misunderstanding) the writing
that may not be verbalized any other way.
My point's just that, unfortunately, there's lots of students for whom such
an exercise might be more frustrating than illuminating, and, far more
unfortunately, lots of teachers who wouldn't be able to draw useful lessons
from "unsuccessful" imitations as you have.
In the wrong situation(s), in the wrong hands perhaps, this teaching
technique could be dreadful, though. Just as some poets are "better" at
some kinds of poems than others, some teachers and some students are
"better" at some kinds of teaching and learning (not necessarily
respectively).
>and i do envy those who can sew their own clothes and fix their own cars,
>and do
>believe my life would be richer, or i'd be less intimidated by cars and
>clothes,
>if i knew even a few rudimentaries. i especially wish i knew how to brawl,
>physically, cuz i envy the insouciance with which people who do know how
>to take
>care of themselves in that way enter high-risk places at high-risk times of
>day/night.--md
Believe me, I share your envy. But, as you obviously understand from the
teaching experiences you describe here, the issue in having students write
in the style of various writers isn't so they'll end up simply envying
these poet's skill.
Your last sentence has given me one more reminder to look at your book,
titled, I think, "at the dark end of the street," which I only know of from
a friend who likes Bob Kaufman's work a lot (& who, for a jazz oral history
project ended up interviewing, and pissing off, Bumps Blackwell's widow).
Bests,
H.
Herb Levy
herb@eskimo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 09:59:31 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Marjorie Perloff <perloff@LELAND.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 17 Jul 1995 to 18 Jul 1995
In-Reply-To: <199507190438.VAA07723@leland.Stanford.EDU>
Re: Rainey's piece on HD (for Alan Golding): you should know that the
essay (now identified by someone else for Alan) was first given as an MLA
talk where Rainey was almost stoned for his attack. The drawing of
battle lines is too bad because surely it should be possible to criticize
HD without using those particular arguments or lines of attack.
As for Vendler's title SOUL SAYS, in fact that isn't taken from Jorie
Graham as David Reynolds suggests but from George Herbert--can't remember
the name of the poem and there may be more than one but it goes along
with the typical Herbert strategy of Body vs. Soul speaking, or as in
"Love" ("Love says, "You shall be he").
Marjorie Perloff
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 13:11:17 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Kellogg <kellogg@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>
Subject: The Broadcasting Angel
Comments: cc: ahs@acpub.duke.edu
Hey all,
A colleague and friend of mine is doing work on
POETRY AND RADIO
as well as other forms of mechanical voice
reproduction and transmission, between the
twenties and the forties. I don't know anything about the
subject, and I'm wondering if anybody here knows of
interesting collections or recordings related to
radio broadcasts of poetry in the period.
She is NOT a member of the Poetics list, and would
like any responses directed to her at
ahs@acpub.duke.edu
Thanks in advance for any response.
Cheers,
David
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Kellogg The moment is at hand.
University Writing Program Take one another
Duke University and eat.
Durham, NC 27708
kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 12:26:22 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Franz K.
rachel loden writes:
> Maria,
>
> Here's Kafka (for real this time) on the "ethnic chauvinism"
> you mention:
>
> "What have I in common with Jews? I have hardly anything in
> common with myself and should stand very quietly in a corner,
> content that I can breathe."
>
> Speaking as a Jew, I can't think of anything truer, or funnier
> --or more Jewish--than that.
>
> Rachel Loden
yes, brilliant --both you and the K-man. thanks for that gem!--md
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 12:39:47 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Holy Soul Jelly Roll
herb levy writes:
> >Allen Ginsberg's location of the soul within the jelly roll ranks as one of
> >the great gastronomical achievements of our times. Yum yum.
>
> Well Charles Mingus, for one, had a piece called My Jelly Roll Soul, on, I
> think, the album titled "Oh Yeah" from the mid 1950s.
>
> &, as long as people are dropping names right & left on the issue of soul=8A
>
> Call me a pagan, but since McCullough & Weiner (among others) located the
> mind in the body, I've always assumed that's where the soul was too.
>
> Though I don't think they're the same thing.
>
>
the blues vernacular term "jelly roll" for sex/vagina and its frequent
appearance w/ "soul" as rhyme word might suggest that cultures other than the
christianized northern european ones have long associated the soul, not only
with the body, but with its sexual functions among others. not to claim that
other cultures don't have their own dualisms, but the body/soul one seems to
have had such a crippling and yet culturally forceful, and sometimes even
productive, effect on Northern Euro-American culture in particular.--md
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 13:51:32 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rae Armantrout <RaeA100900@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: doing the one-two writing...
Dear Tony,
I recommend Fanny's latest books of poems, The End. Just read it and see
if you see what I mean.
Rae
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 14:54:53 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jonathan Brannen <jbrannen@INFOLINK.MORRIS.MN.US>
Subject: Re: Holy Soul Jelly Roll
Guess it must be jelly 'cause jam don't shake like that!
Jonathan Brannen
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 16:26:41 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Kellogg <kellogg@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 17 Jul 1995 to 18 Jul 1995
Comments: cc: Marjorie Perloff <perloff@Leland.stanford.edu>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950719095620.6719A-100000@elaine33.Stanford.EDU>
On Wed, 19 Jul 1995, Marjorie Perloff wrote:
> As for Vendler's title SOUL SAYS, in fact that isn't taken from Jorie
> Graham as David Reynolds suggests but from George Herbert--can't remember
> the name of the poem and there may be more than one but it goes along
> with the typical Herbert strategy of Body vs. Soul speaking, or as in
> "Love" ("Love says, "You shall be he").
sic: it was me, David Kellogg, and not David Reynolds, who said that.
And also: I'm sure the Herbert connection isn't lost on Vendler, for whom
it no doubt serves to reinforce her view of Graham as part of the great
Stream of Poetry, but in fact Vendler writes:
"Lyric, from the Psalms to 'The Waste Land,' seemed, when I was
seventeen, to be the voice of the soul itself. This, I take it,
is what Jorie Graham means in calling one of her poems 'Soul
Says,' which I have borroed as the title for this collection of
essays about lyric poetry."
Vendler, *Soul Says*, p. 3
So while the title may be indirectly from Herbert -- one of Vendler's
favorite poets -- it's *directly* from Graham. (The poem "Soul Says"
also provides the epigraph for Vendler's collection).
Cheers,
David
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Kellogg The moment is at hand.
University Writing Program Take one another
Duke University and eat.
Durham, NC 27708
kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 16:31:25 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Willa Jarnagin <JARNAGIN@HULAW1.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Soul/body
In-Reply-To: <v01530501ac31da0f2669@[192.0.2.1]>
On Wed, 19 Jul 1995, Herb Levy wrote:
> &, as long as people are dropping names right & left on the issue of soul=
=8A
>=20
> Call me a pagan, but since McCullough & Weiner (among others) located the
> mind in the body, I've always assumed that's where the soul was too.
>=20
> Though I don't think they're the same thing.
I think they are the same thing, just in different degrees. They're both=20
life. So which is more alive, the body or the soul? Which is more the=20
poem: its physical manifestation as words on a page and sound in the air,=
=20
or its abstract life in the mind of the reader?
I'm glad to see discussion of the soul. But maybe that's because I never=20
lived in a college dorm.
Willa J.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 16:16:02 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jonathan Brannen <jbrannen@INFOLINK.MORRIS.MN.US>
Subject: Re: The Recording Angel
Herb,
I agree that when tapes of poetry readings are available for purchase
they should be purchased rather than dubbed. Unfortunately, most
poetry readings aren't recorded, and of those that are, few are
available commercially. I wouldn't distribute copies of a reading
I've taped without the poets consent and I assume that others who
exchange dubs of reading are also acting in good faith. I think
because of the non-commercial nature of such recordings this is a
a fair assumption. Poetry has to rely on informal and unofficial
means of distribution because most formal and official channels
are closed to it. I also think it helps a poet extend her or his
audience and promotes the sales of books.
I have no problem with anyone making dubs of readings I've given
or photo-copying my out-of-print books for personal use. I'd be
interested hearing how others view this in terms of their work.
Jonathan Brannen
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 16:16:58 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: the one-two writing/teaching
> herb levy writes
> ...
> a friend who likes Bob Kaufman's work a lot (& who, for a jazz oral history
> project ended up interviewing, and pissing off, Bumps Blackwell's widow).
>
> Bests,
>
> H.
do tell, if you're at liberty. how'd s/he piss Mrs Blackwell off? i talked to
marlene blackwell once on the phone and she was quite gracious, more so than
another one of BK's sisters who regarded me with suspicion.--md
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 22:08:58 +0000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: cris cheek <cris@SLANG.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: soul review
So, the 'soul' is 'constructed'?
As 'identity' - 'culture' - 'language' - 'syntax' - 'metaphor' -
'materiality' - 'spirituality' - 'belief' - are at their least
'constructed'?
invoke hubris
resist such formulation and defy the gods
(at peril) - "oh, great cynical One!"
love and love
cris
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 22:09:04 +0000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: cris cheek <cris@SLANG.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Sampling and Copyright
Some of you might have already got notice of this new list and conference -
for those who haven't, maybe see you there:
>New Discussion List (a "message group," really): TECHNOCULT
>
>Music and Technoculture List
>Moderators: Rene T.A. Lysloff and Randal Baier
>
>The term technoculture describes social groups and behaviors characterized
>by creative strategies of technological adaptation, avoidance, subversion,
>or resistance. It is formulated with the assumption that technology,
>rather than being separate from or outside of culture, is saturated with
>cultural meaning and, in turn, fully assimilated into the lived
>experiences the humans that use it. Changing technologies thus also
>implicate cultural practices involving music--including musical
>creativity, production, reproduction, consumption (and reception),
>aesthetics, and even scholarship.
>
>The purpose of TECHNOCULT is to discuss the implications of new media and
>information technologies in relation to musical experience (whether live
>or mediated). TECHNOCULT has been set up as an electronic forum in
>anticipation of the upcoming preconference symposium, "Music and
>Technoculture," at the Biltmore Hotel in Los Angeles, California, on
>October 18, 1995 (preceding the 1995 Meeting of the Society for
>Ethnomusicology, also at the Biltmore Hotel, October 19-22). Some of the
>questions to be addressed in the symposium will be: Can and should the
>individual tones, rhythms, or timbres of a musician or a musical style,
>even a whole musical culture, be protected through copyright laws? Where
>does ethnomusicology stand in regard to cross-cultural plunderphonics (the
>creative appropriation of musical sound), especially with the advent of
>digital sampling technology? How has such technology change musical
>creativity? Can even the most abstract stylistic elements of music,
>simply the "sound," "feel," or "groove" of a composition or performance be
>owned, or appropriated and commodified? Should digital sampling and
>recontextualization be regarded as audio-piracy or musical creativity?
>
>Indeed, digital sampling is perhaps the most controversial form of musical
>technology in recent history: it blurs the line between musical production
>and schizophonic reproduction. In other words, samplers have a parasitic
>relationship with the past (since all sampled sounds are, after all, past
>sounds) and yet it has revolutionized musical creativity by liberating
>sound entirely from its source of production and allowing it to be
>completely malleable. Fields such as musicology, ethnomusicology,
>communications, anthropology, performance studies, etc., have yet to
>examine the broader implications of digital and other new technologies to
>the study of music and culture.
>
>We hope that TECHNOCULT and the planned Symposium will, at the very least,
>raise important questions for further examination and discussion. To join
>TECHNOCULT and/or for further information on the preconference symposium,
>send a message to Rene T.A. Lysloff (LYSLOFF@vms.cis.pitt.edu) or Randal
>Baier (REBAIER@umich.edu).
>
>----[end of announcment]---
love and love
cris
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 09:54:39 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: Re: doing the one-two writing...
Dear Rae, you are assuming easy access. A lot depends on library
acquisition and time-delays as well.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 10:16:27 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: SoUl
as I understand it
the soul must be
that which moves
that which moves
--- is "language-game"
no? but yes.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Soul talk is all in with God talk and love
talk. When we romance one another. When
we do not like one another very much at all
we make up nasty little poems to one another.
Infantile, yes. Ecstasy / orgasm, yummy, yes
please, is anchored, lo and behold, to a kind of
purchasing power: enter the sex-consumer. I
ask you, where's the soul in it, I ask
you
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 10:41:45 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: soUl
"....The phenomenon is that which shows itself, that which is
apparent and which in its appearance shows forth something
which can reveal itself therein only by remaining concealed beneath
the appearance. Something shows itself in the phenomenon and can show
itself there only by remaining hidden...." Henry Corbin, trans Peter
Russell "The concept of Comparative Philosophy. Golgonooza Press,
1981
The search for a location for the soul supposes that NOTHING is that
can be so concealed ( / revealed ). EVERY THING must have a locus?
within Extension? That sounds awfully like Descartes's problem of
mind/body ( although it is not the " mind " that is the name for
what has " passions ", it is the "Soul" that has "passions" in his
writings.
The concern I have here is that our "language environment" (remember
Tom Beckett's first number of The Difficulties, the "language
environment" questionnaire replied to by various writers ) has
eliminated. largely, a very large thread of discourse. This results
I suppose from the Mind/Body dualities and problems of 16th/17th
century writing. This thread is recoverable and is possibly crucial
to the fullest and widest and richest poetics so many of us on this
list evidently are moved to desire. (It does not have to break into
any orthodox religious trot at the touch of James Joyce's wife's
whip). It may be situated within the continually pressing thought of
our living within our families, of generation, of succession, of
love (and anger and kindness and malice...) and I am reminded of
the effort to conceive of these relations also as animating the
behaviour of artists in their community, as clearly shown by Paul
Barolsky in his studies of Vasari's Lives
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 10:46:07 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: (Fwd) map of Glos. for Loss
Descartes soldier
in a time of religious
wars
a map of Dogtown: St cod via
Sophia, Fishermans / racks
Field, Fishermans / in a field
2 acres on which to dry like snow
fences or tables
at a lawn
party
& ladies
in boots
who wear
coifs to keep
the sun from burning
their necks
The Shoreman, Sunday Sept 10
1961
7777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777
note: re breathing that a breath between "coifs" and "to keep" is
in MID-LINE and would be a good way to read this aloud
I'd propose the following:
ACROSS THE BEAT
the feet, the voice
droning. As in rap
it doesn't matter what you talk
as long as you are doing "that" talking
(I think it's the setting down
that's the problem
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 18:47:10 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ryan Knighton <knighton@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: soUl
In-Reply-To: <MAILQUEUE-101.950720104145.768@ccnov2.auckland.ac.nz> from "Tony
Green" at Jul 20, 95 10:41:45 am
"The nature of things is in the habit of concealing itself." Heraclitus
has soul. He just can't find it and that's AOK.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 00:04:28 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Loss Glazier <lolpoet@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) map of Glos. for Loss
In-Reply-To: <MAILQUEUE-101.950720104607.384@ccnov2.auckland.ac.nz> from "Tony
Green" at Jul 20, 95 10:46:07 am
" M A P "
-- for Tony Green --
X -
this isn't X -
"rustic"? X - -
per bk? X - -
W - -
--------System-------Gloucester o A - - -
| T - - -
| Boston o E - -
| R - -
| X - - -
- W Engagement------Absemce-- X - - -
- A X - - -
- T o Buffalo o what town is X - -
- E this Warsaw - ? X -
- R but t h e r e i s X -
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 16:05:40 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: (Fwd) wittgen(stein) and soul
Received and forwarded for Gabrielle who has had electronic problems
------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 15:53:42 -1000
From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@hawaii.edu>
Subject: wittgen(stein) and soul
To: t.green@auckland.ac.nz
Hi Tony. Would you mind forwarding this to the Poetics list for me? I'm
dying to speak and have been bumped because my address has changed. So
far, cannot get the listserv to resubscribe me. If it's too much
trouble, just let me know. Gabrielle
On Wed, 19 Jul 1995, Jordan Davis. wrote:
> in a Wittgenstein-flooded world?
Oh, would that this were true. People on this list not included, the
world that even thinks about Witt is about as microscopic as you can get,
and the continued proliferation of the dread disease, dichotomy mind,
is proof that his presence is but a trickle. As a wittgen(stein)ian,
won't one go about asking what in fact we can and can't say about soul
to explore the boundaries of its possibility?
Gabrielle
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Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 22:18:31 -0700
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From: Steve Carll <sjcarll@SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: where it comes from
ShaunAnne opened this can of worms:
>I had read in Cixous recently that she locates the soul at the body.
A couple of years back I was watching one of the lectures in Joseph
Campbell's _Transformation of Myth Through Time_ where he was talking about
the classical Vedic chakra system, which seems to make a distinction between
the "gross body" and the "subtle body", which I take to be rough equivalents
of what we commonly call "body" and "soul". Neophytes are always
discovering the subtle body and wanting to negate the gross body, but,
Campbell said, this is missing the point, which is that the subtle body is
to be experienced _through_ the gross body. So maybe the idea is really
old. Or maybe Campbell had been reading Cixous.
Steve
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 01:20:36 -0400
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Alan Sondheim <sondheim@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: where it comes from
In-Reply-To: <199507200518.WAA22916@slip-1.slip.net>
Also check out Kristeva's book, New Maladies of the Soul, for more inter-
twining -
Alan
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 02:18:59 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rod Smith <AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: SoUl
can we talk abt something else please.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 02:15:17 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@ALBNYVMS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Soul/body
It just hit me that this discussion on the "soul" has skirted around
a far more formidable (and perhaps familiar) terms, "the self" and
ITS effectiveness, which poststructuralism and langpo may have ironized
(at least in their blatant codifications). But the issue has not gone
aaway as a site for many "responses" of varying degrees of emotional/
intellectual/formal intensity (at least rhetorically). Perhaps because
it is more perilous, it opens up the can of worms of art's relationship
to life, and not in a merely abstract way, that life may be a poem and
a poem only life and what then of the poet, the rimbaudian cork????
tossing tossing, or willing willing, why not both? why not neither...
and such "overcomplications of subjectivity" have a tendency allegedly
to get in the way of the play of surfaces and the aestehtic distancing
or, on the other hand, are accused of a certain aesthetic distancing
by those who want the self as a given or ground, a donnee or readu-
made, as both hardcore "straight" poets and hardcore "avant-garde"
poetry (assuming either really exists as more than an impulse in the
poems of most of us---cf. Zukofsky's "Shakespeare argued with no one,
only in itself") beg the question that is the self, or the society
or institution that takes the form as the "question which is the self"
since there is a party in my mind and I hope it never stops, especially
if one realizes that "to be alone in a crowd" (in the crowd that's
also conceivably "inside one") may be the distance in which only
thought can occur, emotionalizing intellect, the dramatizations that
prefer to see the self strategically as a vista from which to criticize
society cold and calculatingly even as it rages in a frustration
beyond--or at least between-words....chris stroffolino
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 00:07:59 -0700
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From: Shaunanne Tangney <st@SCS.UNR.EDU>
Subject: Archives (fwd)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 16:06:20 -1000
From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@hawaii.edu>
To: Shaunanne Tangney <st@scs.unr.edu>
Subject: Archives
Dear dear Shaunanne, would you pleeeez forward this to the Poetics list
for me. I know you are embodied with a visit, but I am bumped
temporarily off the list because my address has been changed by my
listserv. I will obliged be... Love G.
I think Kenneth Rexroth did a program on Mina Loy (was it on KPFA too?)
that I would love to hear. And wasn't there an radio interview with her
in Aspen before she died?
Gabrielle
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 21:15:42 JST
Reply-To: nada@twics.com
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: nada@TWICS.COM
Subject: nyc visit
I and my friend Masaya Saito will be visiting NYC from Tokyo
from August 10 to 20. Any tips on good events, connections, sites,
and festivities would be much appreciated.
YOROSHIKU NE
Nada
(nada@twics.com) departure to US on July 23 Japan time.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 09:34:15 EDT
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rachel Loden <74277.1477@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: who is Woody Allen
Ron,
Hilarious about the strange samizdat bedfellows. Especially
if (as I assume) the project was commenced in a spirit of
deep intellectual seriousness...
Woody Allen is Allen Stewart Konigsberg, originally. So--
Silliman, Konigsberg and Zukofsky--a law firm, perhaps, in a
Marx Bros. movie? Cyrillic subtitles of course. Uh oh, better
go back to my corner and be content that I can breathe--
Rachel
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 06:31:00 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Davidson <Michael_Davidson@LITERATURE.UCSD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Archives (fwd)
Comments: To: st@SCS.UNR.EDU
On the matter of an interview with Mina Loy in Aspen: Paul
Blackburn conducted an interview with her late in her life,
and it was recorded. The tape can be found at the Mandeville
Dept. of Special Collections, Universityof California, San
Diego, La Jolla, CA 92093. Write to Lynda Claassen, head of
Special Collections.
Michael Davidson
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 09:40:52 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: who is Woody Allen
rachel loden writes:
> Ron,
>
> Hilarious about the strange samizdat bedfellows. Especially
> if (as I assume) the project was commenced in a spirit of
> deep intellectual seriousness...
>
> Woody Allen is Allen Stewart Konigsberg, originally. So--
> Silliman, Konigsberg and Zukofsky--a law firm, perhaps, in a
> Marx Bros. movie? Cyrillic subtitles of course. Uh oh, better
> go back to my corner and be content that I can breathe--
>
> Rachel
yeah, ron, great anecdote, meant to ask you, did your agent or translator or did
the journal itself propose in an introduction or some such a "vision" or
rationale for grouping the 3 of you together? if so, what was it?
i once had students, in a class in which we were reading yeats, read woody's
spoof on the yeats norton headnotes in --is it without feathers? -one student,
from Cameroon, didn't understand that the piece was a joke and gave a
presentation on it as if it were a serious piece of anecdotal literary
biography. and most students didnt even realize it was a spoof on yeats, even
though they'd read him in the norton anth. that was the object of satire.
anyway, that's minnesota for you --no sense of irony and play.--md
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 09:51:33 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) map of Glos. for Loss
In message loss writes:
> " M A P "
>
> -- for Tony Green --
> X -
> this isn't X -
> "rustic"? X - -
> per bk? X - -
> W - -
> --------System-------Gloucester o A - - -
> | T - - -
> | Boston o E - -
> | R - -
> | X - - -
> - W Engagement------Absemce-- X - - -
> - A X - - -
> - T o Buffalo o what town is X - -
> - E this Warsaw - ? X -
> - R but t h e r e i s X -
__________________________________________________________
MEGACOOL! can i bring this in to my summer poetry class, loss?
also, here's a proposal for community on the list (yes, the sad truth is, i'm a
die-hard addict by now --i gotta getta life!!):
have local gatherings (mpls, buff, sfu, etc) of list people --i'm assuming this
might already be happening in places where there's more of a scene than here.
and then maybe how about a yearly list festival in some central place, buffalo
perhaps, or vancouver, where we all get to see what each other look like and
sound like in the embodied flesh?
or is that too corny?--md
ps soon to follow, what i did on my summer vacation, or, my 2 wks at naropa
institute. stay suspendered, folks, i didn't get down with allen ginsberg.--md
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 07:57:04 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM>
Subject: (oral) history teaches what history teaches
>> herb levy writes
>> ...
>> a friend who likes Bob Kaufman's work a lot (& who, for a jazz oral history
>> project ended up interviewing, and pissing off, Bumps Blackwell's widow).
>>
>> Bests,
>>
>> H.
>
>do tell, if you're at liberty. how'd s/he piss Mrs Blackwell off? i talked to
>marlene blackwell once on the phone and she was quite gracious, more so than
>another one of BK's sisters who regarded me with suspicion.--md
I don't see any harm in telling what I know of the story, but I don't have
any juicy details and I doubt there really are any.
A Seattle writer, Paul de Barros (another one of those Seattle writers
whose creative work is published more in Canada than in the States)
produced an oral history of the Jazz scene in the Seattle area through the
mid-Sixties. (Jackson Street After Hours, published in 1994, by Sasquatch
Press.)
Blackwell was a band leader in the area from some time in the forties on.
He later was a record producer and/or manager for various R&B performers.
Based on his research, de Barros made him less central to the Seattle jazz
scene in the completed book than his widow thought was appropriate.
It was only later that he found out that Blackwell's widow was one of Bob
Kaufman's sisters, but by then he knew from their previous communications
that he'd be unwelcome if he tried to explore the issue with her.
That's it, sorry it's so dull.
Herb Levy
herb@eskimo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 10:59:49 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: wit and sould
Gabrielle (and all):
Did Wittgenstein ever use the word "soul"? Somehow I can't imagine that.
Am I wrong?
Burt
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 08:55:12 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "H. T. KIRBY-SMITH" <KIRBYS@FAGAN.UNCG.EDU>
Organization: University of NC at Greensboro
Subject: free verse foot
Some time back Donald Wesling's "The Prosodies of Free Verse" was
mentioned as a good treatment of the subject. Finally found it in
TWENTIETH-CENTURY LITERATURE IN RETROSPECT, Harvard UP, Harvard
English Studies Series : No. 2, 1971.
So it's not exactly the latest thing.
There is this passage:
Since, however, there is no free verse foot, and since it
is strictly impermissible to alter typography in a genuine
confrontation of all the linguistic features of the line,
we must accept Zygmunt Czerny's axiom that each line in
free verse is "quantitatively independent of the previous
one" and Barbara Herrnstein Smith's that the line is "not
a constant unit but the acknowledgement of a limit of
variability." In fact, the line is the notation of how the
poem is to be read.
I wonder if whoever recommended this essay, or anyone else, cares to
comment on those statements, especially on the assumption, "there is
no free verse foot."
Tom Kirby-Smith
English Department
UNC-Greensboro
Greensboro NC 27412
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 11:02:30 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Soul/body
Cris,
How about, to use contemporary language, we try to talk about the self
by acknowledging the truth of (forgive the jargon:) "subject-positionality"
yet by going beyond that ideo-linguistic node?
Burt
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 11:09:04 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Marisa A Januzzi <jma5@COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: Madge Herron (fwd)
(I'm forwarding this message through Marisa because my local listserv has
changed my address--just in case anyone starts wondering whether Marisa
and I are part of a new extraterrestrial entity...)
Does anybody on the list know if madge herron is still writing? Just saw
one of her poems in a wonderful collection--Love Poems by Women. I used
to know her in London when I was doing a market stall in Camden
Town--very very long ago in my youthly youth. Liked her a lot. She once
told me she felt as though her face was hanging from her eyebrows.
Gabrielle
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 08:19:41 PDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jerry Rothenberg <jrothenb@CARLA.UCSD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Archives (fwd)
The Mina Loy interview I know of was taped by Paul Blackburn & someone else
(maybe Creeley, maybe Vas Dias) in Aspen. There's a copy in the Blackburn
Collection at the Archive for New Poetry in UCSD's Central Library, and I'm
pretty sure they'd be willing to dub. The collection curator is Brad
Westbrook & the library (Special Collections) number is (619) 534-2533.
I haven't heard it in years, but I remember it starts with a discussion of
her false teeth -- a condition she had from childhood.
Good hunting.
Jerome Rothenberg
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 10:47:32 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 17 Jul 1995 to 18 Jul 1995
Marjorie:
Herbert writes:
You shall be he.
the poem then continues:
I the unkind, ungrateful -
Ah my dear, I cannot look on thee.
Love took my hand and smiling did reply,
Who made the eyes but I?
Truth lord, but I have marred them,
Let my shame go where it doth deserve.
And know you not, says Love, who bore the blame?
- My dear, then I will serve.
You must sit down, says Love, and taste my meat.
So I did sit and eat.
(written from memory so I hope it's right).
Now:
You are suggesting that the carnal acts of sitting and eating will lead
to the knowing of Christ, Love or whatever?
Also: Has anyone ever written about what to my late 20th-century American
mind seems to be the sexual overtones (homosexual at that) of the last lines?
Burt
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 16:09:22 +0000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: cris cheek <cris@SLANG.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: The Recording Angel
Mixed feelings re - copying for my own work. Basically for out-of-print
books and recordings of readings I'd encourage a proliferation of pirating.
Ye Olde Total Anti-Copyrighte Brigade. Would prefer drediting (it's a
lovely typo but I mean crediting before anyone gets a Judge joke edgeways)
but am also keen on anonymity and alias use. Guess if appropriation for
wanton profit was involved I'd like to be consulted.
Main bug is not so much the question of money as the question of abuse of
intention through manipulation of context.
Anyone read the post on Technocult - I'm curious about the implications
of their idea that a 'culture' could be copyrighted?
It harks back to an antique discussion but I'm of the opinion that work
produced in a format for which it was not composed is tantamount to a
translation. Hot example would be what happened to J.H. Prynne's wonderful
separate books in the mish-mash of the Allardyce Barnett collection. An
unappealling travesty of presentation. And maybe Herb this is part of the
discussion re - copying too. There's some curious and subtle demaractions
operating here and I thank you all for raising them.
love and love
cris
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 10:50:21 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: free verse foot
tom kirby smith writes:
>
>
> I wonder if whoever recommended this essay, or anyone else, cares to
> comment on those statements, especially on the assumption, "there is
> no free verse foot."
i still can't accept the fact that there's no free lunch (having an academic
position is the closest i've been able to come); somehow this other matter seems
easier or less traumatic for me to take in.--md
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 12:31:53 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Marisa A Januzzi <jma5@COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Soul/body
In-Reply-To: <01HT2RC6BB768Y6DLC@albnyvms.BITNET>
Chris:
can the line between art and life be thinned grammatically?? (thanks for
the demo)
Brian:
thanks for the Gaspara Stampa post-- I'm off to find the 200 sonnets, if
extant. Anyone female and Venetian who waits til 26 to hook up (in
whatever century) is going to be interesting.
Anyone interested in the Loy tape:
Yes, it's at UCSD-- interviewers are Blackburn and Vas Dias, sound
quality only so-so. I made a transcript of it-- 30+ pages-- and was
talking with Carolyn Burke about possibly publishing some of it
somewhere. Any ideas? If anyone wants the transcript, just send me
postage (sorry to be so cheap, but right now it's the only way I can get
anything to anyone short of handing it off)
Juliana (sorry to go listwide):
please send address: I want to answer your post, for which, thanks!
--Marisa (aka Gabrielle, channel 3)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 09:26:22 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "H. T. KIRBY-SMITH" <KIRBYS@FAGAN.UNCG.EDU>
Organization: University of NC at Greensboro
Subject: free verse foot
Some time back Donald Wesling's "The Prosodies of Free Verse" was
mentioned as a good treatment of the subject. Finally found it in
TWENTIETH-CENTURY LITERATURE IN RETORSPECT, Harvard UP, Harvard
English Studies Series : No. 2, 1971.
So it's not exactly the latest thing.
There is this passage:
Since, however, there is no free verse foot, and since it
is strictly impermissible to alter typography in a genuine
confrontation of all the linguistic features of the line,
we must accept Zygmunt Czarny's axiom that each line in
free verse is "quantitatively independent of the previous
one" and Barbara Herrnestein Smith's that the line is "not
a constant unit but the acknowledgement of a limit of
variability." In fact, the line is the notation of how the
poem is to be read.
I wonder if whoever recommended this essay, or anyone else, cares to
comment on those statements, especially on the assumption, "there is
no free verse foot."
Tom Kirby-Smith
English Department
UNC-Greensboro
Greensboro NC 27412
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 09:36:32 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM>
Subject: Re: who is Woody Allen
"Is It Without Feathers?" is the full title of the mauscript Allen
Konigsberg submitted to the Yale Younger Poets series before he found his
true calling writing jokes for the Tonight Show.
Herb Levy
herb@eskimo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 11:56:26 CDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: eric pape <ENPAPE@LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: SoUl
In-Reply-To: <950720021858_118854437@aol.com>
Been gone most of the summer, but came back to find this latest interesting
discussion on the "soul." I'm wondering if "soul" is exactly what we do not
have at this point. The main thing that cont. conditions make impossible.
"The cry of the soul in a soulless world (sic)," doesn't mean that there
is not a soul out there, in here, but that it is irrelevant. Might as
well have a dodo residing in your abdomen.
But if we do not have a "soul" neither do we have a "body."
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 12:04:05 CDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: eric pape <ENPAPE@LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Soul Train
In-Reply-To: <199507181826.OAA21581@blues.epas.utoronto.ca>
Cool! My hometown made news! Which Globe and Mail? AV demonstrates
what happens when your city councils are dominated by real estate
agents. Most of whom from LA, called in some circles the Evil Empire.
Thanks, Eric.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 10:33:11 PST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tom Taylor <TOMT@CH1.CH.PDX.EDU>
Organization: PSU Cramer Hall
Subject: Re: V GER/The Vision Project
V GER/The Vision Project
you tell me yours and I'll tell you mine
Looking toward the Millennium, contemporary poetics of passage
All forms, 2/b electronic, an open file report
updated, organic, alive
Submit to Thomas Lowe Taylor, Oysterville WA 98641-0216
or to taylort@pdx.edu
Long-term project: permanent, slow, varied, graphics to be added
as I learn. Put yourself out, not "same stuff, different day."
WE ARE IN CONTROL
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 10:39:01 PST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tom Taylor <TOMT@CH1.CH.PDX.EDU>
Organization: PSU Cramer Hall
Subject: V GER/The Vision Project
V GER/The Vision Project
You tell me yours and I'll tell you mine.
Looking toward the Millennium, contemporary poetics of passage.
All forms, electronic, open-file report
updated, organic, alive. Query & submissions (snd snmail addr)
to: anabasis, Thomas Lowe Taylor, oysterville WA 98641-0216
or: taylort@pdx.edu
Put yourself out, not "Same Stuff, Different Day"
WE ARE IN CONTROL
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 11:14:09 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ryan Knighton <knighton@SFU.CA>
Subject: Duras
In-Reply-To: <v01530501ac343639afd6@[192.0.2.1]> from "Herb Levy" at Jul 20,
95 09:36:32 am
Does anyone know anything about Marguerite Duras? I just
finished two novellas by her and an interview. What I'm curous
abt is Alberto Manguel's observation that she is viewed as
a "best-seller" by the French "intelligentsia". And, secondly,
her relationship to Coach House Press and its ilk. Fine writer, I
thought, with fine language. Thanks.
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Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 14:10:58 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 17 Jul 1995 to 18 Jul 1995
In message <00993A16.AE4D165E.51@admin.njit.edu> UB Poetics discussion group
writes:
> Marjorie:
>
> Herbert writes:
> You shall be he.
>
> the poem then continues:
>
> I the unkind, ungrateful -
> Ah my dear, I cannot look on thee.
> Love took my hand and smiling did reply,
> Who made the eyes but I?
> Truth lord, but I have marred them,
> Let my shame go where it doth deserve.
> And know you not, says Love, who bore the blame?
> - My dear, then I will serve.
> You must sit down, says Love, and taste my meat.
> So I did sit and eat.
>
>
> (written from memory so I hope it's right).
>
> Now:
>
> You are suggesting that the carnal acts of sitting and eating will lead
> to the knowing of Christ, Love or whatever?
>
> Also: Has anyone ever written about what to my late 20th-century American
> mind seems to be the sexual overtones (homosexual at that) of the last lines?
>
>
> Burt
sexual it is, but the person to whom this stanza meant everything is the
anti-sexual, fatally anorexic Simone Weil. it was her favorite piece of
literature. talk about body/soul dichotomies.--md
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Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 12:39:14 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Recording the Devil in the Details
In-Reply-To: <199507200359.UAA26994@isc.SJSU.EDU>
Maybe everybody just reads too quickly on this line. My post said that
any tape I offer to dub for someone is either in the public domain or was
made by me with the author's permission. I never said or suggested that
the LPs of the Arrivants had passed into the public domain. That should
leave one clear option, no?
If, by the way, anyone is willing to pay big bucks, or get their
University library to do so, the Library of Congress can dub you a tape
of Brathwaite's quite lengthy reading there, introduced by Anthony Hecht
(?!?!?@@#), which is where I first met EKB.
For the jazz fans -- Pacifica Archive has a 58 minoute tape of a parking
lot interview with John Coltrane, just about a year before Coltrane's
death. It goes for $10.00 and is known to the Archive as A3-BC1266 --
You can order from Pacifica Radio Archive -- P.O. Box 8092 - Dept. K -
Universal City, CA - 91608-0092. $3.80 shipping charge. (It goes down
as you order more cassettes, so you might ask fro their current list of
titles, which is not there entire list of titles).
Ron, thanks for the tips. It will take me some time to find out if
Pacifica has any of that, as there filing system is more than usually
inconsistent. By the way, I need your PA address so I can send you _lls_
; I was offline when you provided it before - backchan. if you don't want
to broadcast it to the world.
for, their, etc. correct above as needed --
Yesterday, Marjorie told me of a review of the Hoover PostMod anthology
in the current New Criterion by John Haines,,,, a more than usually
amusing bit of stupidity -- His question is, since Post Mod means anybody
after Modernism, where"s Anne Sexton, James Wright, etc. -- but, of
course, he does not ask where certain other poets born subsequent to
modeernism (_and_ modernism_) might have been left off-- Following this
logic, we might well ask why Edwin Markham has been so consistenly absent
from anthologies of Modernism, despite his clearly having been alive
during the Modernist period (actually, you'd be surprised at some of the
Modernists who _did_ read Markham).
But then, I expect any day now to hear a ganster rap version of Markham's
"The Man with the Hoe." what goes around, etc . . .
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 14:24:43 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: (oral) history teaches what history teaches
herb levy writes:
>
> I don't see any harm in telling what I know of the story, but I don't have
> any juicy details and I doubt there really are any.
>
> A Seattle writer, Paul de Barros (another one of those Seattle writers
> whose creative work is published more in Canada than in the States)
> produced an oral history of the Jazz scene in the Seattle area through the
> mid-Sixties. (Jackson Street After Hours, published in 1994, by Sasquatch
> Press.)
>
> Blackwell was a band leader in the area from some time in the forties on.
> He later was a record producer and/or manager for various R&B performers.
> Based on his research, de Barros made him less central to the Seattle jazz
> scene in the completed book than his widow thought was appropriate.
>
> It was only later that he found out that Blackwell's widow was one of Bob
> Kaufman's sisters, but by then he knew from their previous communications
> that he'd be unwelcome if he tried to explore the issue with her.
>
> That's it, sorry it's so dull.
>
>
> Herb Levy
> herb@eskimo.com
not dull at all, to me, a kaufmaniac. thanks. i'll try to hunt down that jazz
book. it's interesting to peel back the myth that kaufman somehow came out of
nowhere into autodidactic literacy --his family is a very well-respected and
well-connected part of the new orleans Black bourgeoisie, as his sisters'
subsequent careers indicate.--md
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Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 13:24:11 PST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tom Taylor <TOMT@CH1.CH.PDX.EDU>
Organization: PSU Cramer Hall
Subject: Re: SoUl
Huh?
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 01:33:12 +0000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: cris cheek <cris@SLANG.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Souled Out Soul/Body
We'ave all been hyphenated far too long - there's a crunch coming.
love and love
cris
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Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 20:48:49 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Brian W Horihan <hori0001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Duras
In-Reply-To: <199507201814.LAA07630@fraser.sfu.ca>
probably one of the reasons she's a "best-seller" is that she's
also a filmmaker, and many of her films are versions of her plays and
novels, which always makes the latter sell. I'm thinking of that movie
THE LOVER that she didnt direct but which was based on her book of same
name.
after that a new edition of the book came out w/ a gross glossy picture
from the movie on its cover. (also she wrote the script to the wonderful
Resnais film HIROSHIMA MON AMOUR that i'm going to watch right now.)--brian
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Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 22:22:17 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@ALBNYVMS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Recording the Devil in the Details
Dear Aldon (etc.)
Or rephrase this---
Aldon said there was a review by John Haines of the Hoover anthology--
John Haines the Alaskan "nature" poet???
Someone told me a year ago he had a poem called "Hotel Laundry Mat"
published somewhere as a parody of Ashbery---does anybody know anything
about this, or where i could find it---I'm curious about it--or know
any other good parodies (aside from, say, John Yau and Michael Gizzi's
UNDERWEAR AT REST)...this does not mean I'm a "fan" of Haines btw...
cs.
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 15:05:21 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: Re: free verse foot
tho the poem may be "read" in lines, reading across them, i.e.
enjambment is nevertheless still a [necessary] option and breathing
can plainly happen in mid-line, as in the Olson piece from Maximus I
quoted for Loss Glazier going to Gloucester. I think it is more
important at all times to hear a beat going against which the verses
are spoken, so that the ground/constant (heart, according to Pound)
can be felt, while all manner of running over and syncopation takes
place, because of the irregular way that spoken language is sounded.
The worst assumption would be that the stresses in the verse (where
they are found to be strong weak and indeterminate as in most
prosodic divisions) must be regularised and MUST correspond to "the
beat".
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Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 21:26:21 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steve Carll <sjcarll@SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: Filet O Soul
>I would have thought that this list would have no patience with the word
>"soul" if only because it occupies 50% of the ever-so-romantic Helen
>Vendler's new book title, *Soul Says* (which title is taken from a poem of
>Jorie Graham's).
No, I'm not gonna put the blame on the word. It's Helen Vendler I'd have no
patience for. Except I'm not familiar with her.
I'm with Reginald on this (though I can certainly understand Rod's feelings
on the subject): really, if we're gonna talk about this, we're going to
have to be more careful to listen to each other with an ear toward trying to
understand what is meant when one person uses the word as opposed to
another, because there are very fine lines and subtleties involved rather
than one monolithic "meaning" that has to be accepted or rejected.
Otherwise we could just have a polemics-fest based on reductive readings of
each other's posts, which won't be useful to any of us.
Steve
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Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 22:20:48 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Shaunanne Tangney <st@SCS.UNR.EDU>
Subject: Re: Duras
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9507202024.A5804-0100000@maroon.tc.umn.edu>
On Thu, 20 Jul 1995, Brian W Horihan wrote:
> probably one of the reasons she's a "best-seller" is that she's
> also a filmmaker, and many of her films are versions of her plays and
> novels, which always makes the latter sell. I'm thinking of that movie
> THE LOVER that she didnt direct but which was based on her book of same
> name.
> after that a new edition of the book came out w/ a gross glossy picture
> from the movie on its cover. (also she wrote the script to the wonderful
> Resnais film HIROSHIMA MON AMOUR that i'm going to watch right now.)--brian
>
Brian--
Do you own a copy of Hiroshima Mon Amour? I have the text/script--but
NEED a copy of the film, and my local video--big surprise!--has never
even heard of it! If I sent you a tape, do you have the possibility of
taping it for me?
Thanks!
ShaunAnne
st@scs.unr.edu
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 01:21:33 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rod Smith <AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: wit and sould
following that-- is there a Wittgenstein concordance? -- damn I cld write
some poems w/ that!
Burk K wrote:
>Did Wittgenstein ever use the word "soul"? Somehow I can't imagine that.
>Am I wrong?
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 22:43:47 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Marjorie Perloff <perloff@LELAND.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 19 Jul 1995 to 20 Jul 1995
In-Reply-To: <199507210401.VAA16561@leland.Stanford.EDU>
The John Haines review (I didn't even know he was a poet) is truly
astonishing, even for New Criterion. Ashbery is dismissed as
"gibberish," Olson as "nonsense" and "posturing" and so on, down the
line. And he sounds so self-confident.
Maria: "Love" in Herbert's Love, clearly Christ, no? Love is the gentle
and polite host, who 'forgives" the sinning guest and offers him the
Eucharist--"you must sit down, said Love, and taste my meat. / So I did
sit and eat." Conversion parable. If you want to see it as sexual, well
sure, communion can always be interpreted that way but I think it's
slightly far fetched. (it seems to me we've had this conversation...)
Tom: how can there be a free-verse foot? By definition, free verse means
you're not counting stresses or syllables so what is a free-verse foot?
xxx
Marjorie
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 17:33:28 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Wystan Curnow <w.curnow@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland
Subject: Re: the one-two writing/teaching
Comments: To: herb@ESKIMO.COM
Dear Herb,
The subject seems to have run its course, but here's an addendum.
.Yep, students should write poetic essays in their courses. That's what I
say. Poetic means having one. My doubts, the problem, is with the
institutional norm, the expository essay--what is it good for? Absolutely
nothing. Say it again. Isn't contemporary poetics shaped by resistance to
the poetics of everyday essay assignments among other language products?
Aren't they, isn't it?
Wystan
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 01:46:42 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rod Smith <AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: (oral) history teaches what history teaches
md-
being a kaufmaniac you may already know or be involved but in case not I
thought I'd tell you there's a selected B.K. coming soon from Coffee House I
believe-- cld get more exact details if you want'em.
--Rod
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Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 22:49:54 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ryan Knighton <knighton@SFU.CA>
Subject: furnished
In-Reply-To: <950721012130_37441012@aol.com> from "Rod Smith" at Jul 21,
95 01:21:33 am
Hey, I'm moving soon and was thinking abt my stuff and how I will arrange
it and wondered if anyone in here has ever tried aleatoric furnishing.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 03:51:59 CST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Alexander <mcba@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: coffee brewing
Rod Smith writes:
"md-
being a kaufmaniac you may already know or be involved but in case not I
thought I'd tell you there's a selected B.K. coming soon from Coffee House I
believe-- cld get more exact details if you want'em.
--Rod"
Coffee House is also publishing, next year I believe, a collected writings
of Paul Metcalf, which may be two big volumes or four smaller ones, not
necessarily all issued simultaneously. That & the Kaufman sound good, but
overall, there's a press I can't quite figure -- but then I tend to like
surprises.
charles alexander
chax press
minnesota center for book arts
phone & fax: 612-721-6063
e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 03:35:19 CST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Alexander <mcba@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Herbert & Communion
Burt, I remember reading Herbert as a grad student, and there was ample
discussion of ecstatic communion with Christ being presented as a sexual
communion. I wouldn't even call it "sexual overtones" as you suggest. I
think it's pretty obvious in the poem you quote and others. And it seems
there is a fairly wide literature about religion as sexual ecstasy, and I'm
certain there have been commentaries on Herbert taking this issue on.
Seems to me that when the object of desire is Christ, the sexual
communion is bound to have homosexual overtones. I'm sorry I'm not a
student in the field and can't give you citations, but I'm sure someone on
this list can.
charles alexander
chax press
minnesota center for book arts
phone & fax: 612-721-6063
e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 08:31:30 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: Re: wit and sould
In-Reply-To: <00993A18.65B2705E.25@admin.njit.edu> from "Burt Kimmelman
-@NJIT" at Jul 20, 95 10:59:49 am
> Did Wittgenstein ever use the word "soul"? Somehow I can't imagine that.
> Am I wrong?
>
> Burt
>
This is not news, as others have circled the same point, but I think
W's response would be to ask what the word means in the specific
language games in which it is used.
I think his impatience with metaphysics extended to skepticism as
well, in so far as skepticism is a kind of negative metaphysics.
What do you mean by "wrong"?
Best,
Mike
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 09:09:05 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: Re: free verse foot
In-Reply-To: <C8F87FE3111@fagan.uncg.edu> from "H. T. KIRBY-SMITH" at Jul 19,
95 09:26:22 am
> I wonder if whoever recommended this essay, or anyone else, cares to
> comment on those statements, especially on the assumption, "there is
> no free verse foot."
>
I guess it depends on what you mean by "foot" and by "free verse". The
combination of these two terms here suggests to me a response to
tradtional verse forms in which the length of the line is determined
by the accretion of a regular number of syllabic units and stresses.
In this particular case, Wesling seems to want to leave the word there
in that traditional significance, so that he can use it to make
specific distinctions with irregular verse forms.
I don't think there's any reason you have to, though. Prosody ain't
metaphysics, though they tend to treat it like that over on the CAP-L
list. If you follow W.C. Williams' thinking (and though I know some
others don't treat it as actual thinking--notably the Wintersian
rearguard--I do) then the "foot" gets kicked into the 20th century,
where, along with all other forms of measurement, it becomes variable,
in which case it can be applied meaningfully to irregular verse forms.
In Williams' case he uses it as equivalent to his line. But you don't
have to leave it there, either.
I mean it comes to us from the Greeks who used it as a measure of
duration. The English changed it into a measure of stress (first known
use listed in the OED dated at 1050). Williams tried to push it toward
a measure of the fundamental rhythmic units which constitute the
founding sense of colloquial speech. Good luck trying to fix it
somewhere.
Best,
Mike
mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca
"A foot is to kick with"
--Charles Olson
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 09:15:47 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: Re: hits of Pam
In-Reply-To: <950719084645_35983385@aol.com> from "Jordan Davis." at Jul 19,
95 08:46:50 am
> So is that why we have texts (even though we write the same poems over and
> over)? Or, how do we read Olson (who pretty much transliterates Whitehead and
> the historical society into verse) in a Wittgenstein-flooded world? Or, can
> you read Olson without turning off your hearing aid? Is that what the
> excellent Creeley-edited selected Olson is for, to move Olson across the
> divide?
Jordan:
Please excuse my density (too many folds this A.M.?). I'd like to
follow you here, but I'm a bit unclear what you mean by
"Wittgenstein-flooded world", and also by "the divide" whcih is
obviously related to it here. Can you unfold this a bit?
Best,
Mike
mbougn@epas.utoronto.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 09:02:53 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Pierre Joris <joris@CSC.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: (oral) history teaches what history teaches
In-Reply-To: <950721014641_37455040@aol.com> from "Rod Smith" at Jul 21,
95 01:46:42 am
Rod,
here's another kaufmaniac. do keep us informed about that selected --
great news to hear it's coming.
Pierre
=======================================================================
Pierre Joris | He who wants to escape the world, translates it.
Dept. of English | --Henri Michaux
SUNY Albany |
Albany NY 12222 | "Herman has taken to writing poetry. You
tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | need not tell anyone, for you know how
email: | such things get around."
joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --Mrs. Melville in a letter to her mother.
=======================================================================
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 09:00:49 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Pierre Joris <joris@CSC.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Duras
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.91.950720221907.13610E-100000@pogonip.scs.unr.edu>
from "Shaunanne Tangney" at Jul 20, 95 10:20:48 pm
Early Duras is excellent, especially the novels _Un barrage contre le
Pacifique_, Le ravissement de Lol. V. Stein_ & _Le marin de
Gibraltar._ Early success was indeed due to the par_Moderato
Cantabile_ & _Detruire dit-elle_. The big fame
came of course with _The LOvers_, the book, which was a major
bestseller, but not the movie. There is a selected Duras out in
English, called _Outside_ (Beacon Press, 1986)Her fame, at least in
France, is also connected with her antics as war-time friend of
Francois Mitterand, & with her phenomenal bouts with alcolism. (cf.
the book one of her companions, Yann Andrea, wrote on her drying out,
under the title _M.D._)
What I prefer of her writing -- besides the early novels -- are
smaller texts, before all _The Malady of Death_ (translated by Barbara
Bray, Grove Press 1986). A good entrance into that text & in to her
work in general is the second part of Maurice Blanchot's _The
Unavowable Community_ (Station Hill Press, 1988, translated by your
humble servant).
=======================================================================
Pierre Joris | He who wants to escape the world, translates it.
Dept. of English | --Henri Michaux
SUNY Albany |
Albany NY 12222 | "Herman has taken to writing poetry. You
tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | need not tell anyone, for you know how
email: | such things get around."
joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --Mrs. Melville in a letter to her mother.
=======================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 09:46:52 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Loss Glazier <lolpoet@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Re: wit and sould - Rod
In-Reply-To: <950721012130_37441012@aol.com> from "Rod Smith" at Jul 21,
95 01:21:33 am
> following that-- is there a Wittgenstein concordance? -- damn I cld write
> some poems w/ that!
Rod, Here it is (in German):
Concordance to Wittgenstein's Philosophische
Untersuchungen, compiled by Hans Kaal and Alastair McKinnon.
Leiden : E. J. Brill, 1975.
Loss
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 08:55:16 CST6CDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Hank Lazer <HLAZER@AS.UA.EDU>
Organization: The University of Alabama
Subject: Re: anthologies
Marjorie et al--
Yes, Haines is a poet. Quite popular in the 60s & 70s. A hybrid of
Snyder's eco-concerns and the deep image scene (of the Bly, Merwin
version). Books published by Wesleyan; also, lots of poems by Haines
in George Hitchcock's _kayak_ magazine (_kayak_ also published at
least one book by Haines, about the same time they also published one
of Charles Simic's first books).
My essay/review on anthologies--Hoover, Messerli, & Lauter's Heath
anthology of American Lit--is in the current issue of _Contemporary
Literature_. My piece begins with a note thanking the Poetics Group
for the discussion of anthologies held last year about this time.
Hank Lazer
P.S. I'll be in Boston/Cambridge July 25-30. Any suggestions from
those on the list of things not to miss, places to go, etc.?
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 09:59:01 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From: Jim Pangborn <V072GDXG@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Organization: University at Buffalo
Subject: Re: wit and sould
422. What am I believing in when I believe that men have souls?
What am I believing in, when I believe that this substance contains
two carbon rings? In both cases there is a picture in the foreground,
but the sense lies far in the background; that is, the application
of the picture is not easy to survey.
--Wittgenstein, _Philosophical Investigations I_
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 10:56:49 EST
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From: "H. T. KIRBY-SMITH" <KIRBYS@FAGAN.UNCG.EDU>
Organization: University of NC at Greensboro
Subject: free verse foot
Didn't mean to post my first message twice; I had received some sort
of electronic rejection message the first time I sent it, a day
before, and thought it never went through.
I am still hoping for more opinions on whether or not there is such
a thing as a free verse foot. I myself lean towards the syncopation
idea, with Pound's "The Return" as the pre-eminent example. As I
state it, this view may seem Jesuitical to many on this list, but I
think that it made a great deal of difference that Williams and
cummings started out, as adolescents, imitating Keats; that Pound's
proclamation, "no Tennysonianess," was based on a good acquaintance
with what he rejected; that even Ginsberg tried to write like Allen
Tate to start with; that Denise Levertov grew up immersed in English
accentual-syllabics; that way on back H. D. and Amy Lowell felt even
more constrained and oppressed by the poetic heritage than did T. E.
Hulme and Ford Madox Ford.
Maybe if I quote Mallarme it won't seem so offensive to say, "Je
dirai que la reminscence du vers strict hante ces jeux a cote et leur
confere un profit." [No way to do diacritical marks here.] I think
Eliot got his "haunting" theory of f.v. from this statement.
Just because a question has been debated for a hundred years is no
reason to quit discussing it. Chronological parochialism.
Time-blinkering. Intellectual life of the sea-anemone.
Tom Kirby-Smith
English Department
UNC-Greensboro
Greensboro NC 27412
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 09:58:20 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 19 Jul 1995 to 20 Jul 1995
marjorie perloff writes:
>
> Maria: "Love" in Herbert's Love, clearly Christ, no? Love is the gentle
> and polite host, who 'forgives" the sinning guest and offers him the
> Eucharist--"you must sit down, said Love, and taste my meat. / So I did
> sit and eat." Conversion parable. If you want to see it as sexual, well
> sure, communion can always be interpreted that way but I think it's
> slightly far fetched. (it seems to me we've had this conversation...)
>
> xxx
> Marjorie
Marjorie: this is a fine point, but it was someone else who asked about the
(homoerotic) sexual overtones of the poem. i was the one who responded by
saying it was Simone Weil's favorite piece of lit. But, that said, i do think
there's validity to the now-forgotten-who-it-was person's question. Yes, we
have had this conversation re Stein; i think things are sexual, you think that's
possible but far-fetched. that conversation led to my favorite chapter in my
book, for which thanks, also thanks for lunch at MLA, I learned later (from
Peter Q or Bob P or Al F) that you were my benefactress.xxx--maria
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 10:01:42 -0500
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From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: (oral) history teaches what history teaches
In message <950721014641_37455040@aol.com> UB Poetics discussion group writes:
> md-
> being a kaufmaniac you may already know or be involved but in case not I
> thought I'd tell you there's a selected B.K. coming soon from Coffee House I
> believe-- cld get more exact details if you want'em.
> --Rod
hiya rod, yes, david henderson and i wrote essays for it. i only henderson's
advertized in the catalogue tho. so i'm not sure what the scoop is. mine was
a rewrite of the kaufman chapter in dark end of the street. the book is the
entirety of golden sardine, which is, incredibly, out of print, a few selected
from his new directions books, and a handful of previously uncollected poems.
yeah, i'm gonna snatch it up when it appears.--md
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 10:09:07 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Duras
pierre writes:
> What I prefer of her writing -- besides the early novels -- are
> smaller texts, before all _The Malady of Death_ (translated by Barbara
> Bray, Grove Press 1986). ...
i've found this a great text to teach, esp in connection with the master/slave
dialectic... wasn't it dictated, rather than written, because she was too out
of it (alcoholically) to hold a pen? amazing, that it shd come out of an
alcoholic "stupor"--md
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 10:17:08 -0500
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "A. Morris" <amorris@BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Recording Angel
In-Reply-To: <v01530502ac32718ad7ec@[192.0.2.1]>
I feel like one of those students in a class who leans forward listening
all semester but doesn't say anything for so long it becomes almost
physically impossible to force her voice out into the air. Here I am,
though, delurking to enter the recording angel stream. It was me, way
back, who offered--wrongly--to dub a tape which may still be available
commercially and which therefore may still be providing the poet and the
folks who taped him and made his sounds available some much deserved
revenue. I apologize.
I appreciate the postings by Herb Levy, Jonathan Brannen, Aldon Nielson,
and others. My offer to dub the tape came not from greed or
wilful criminality (she said defensively & no doubt unnecessarily) but
from haste and thoughtlessness. It also came, I know, from a long
history of teaching and writing about and wanting to read and listen to
writers whose work has been/is out of print and unavailable through
commercial channels. Whenever I can, I order in-print books for my
classes--of course--but I have also (are the feds listening here? I'll
confess anyway) xeroxed bits on Stein from The Language Book without
writing away and paying a fee (or more accurately passing on to my
students a fee) for them, passed around a frayed xerox of The Bedouin
Hornbook, and copied an H.D. text published only in an out-of-sight
expensive ($375) art-book format. For this reason, I'm deeply grateful
to Doug Messerli for the Sun & Moon anthology which makes so many
hard-to-find poems available and for Sun & Moon's intent to bring Mackey's
Hornbook into print, and for all the other small presses
and journals which keep this work circulating.
As teacher and critic, I feel an important aspect of my role is as
disseminator: to unblock access, to open things up, to
scatter widely. Although xeroxing an out-of-print
poem may not profit in the writer or publisher in the short term, it has
long term effects crucial for all of us: it generates
readers/listeners/buyers/thinkers for books, recordings, anthologies,
journals, and performances, etc. My bottom line, I guess, is the more
people who think about this stuff, the better.
Thanks to Herb Levy and the rest of the commenters in this stream, I see
I need to be more alert and careful in this dissemination, however--. I
remain . . .
Chastened in Iowa,
Dee Morris
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 10:20:47 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: anthologies
hank l. writes
>
> My essay/review on anthologies--Hoover, Messerli, & Lauter's Heath
> anthology of American Lit--is in the current issue of _Contemporary
> Literature_. My piece begins with a note thanking the Poetics Group
> for the discussion of anthologies held last year about this time.
>
> Hank Lazer
>
> P.S. I'll be in Boston/Cambridge July 25-30. Any suggestions from
> those on the list of things not to miss, places to go, etc.?
you must go to grolier's, on plympton st. in harvard square. legendary poetry
book store with cool lady and dog. greet the dog as jessica pumpkin (or the
less formal "jessie p") and the lady will be nice to you. also the
busch-reisinger museum in harvard square and the gardner museum in boston. both
very lovely, small museums (i hate big ones). my dad used to work at the
peabody museum on "divinity" ave in cambridge, in the antrho dept, and they had
some cool mummies on the top floor. but i think they were removed cuz they were
drawing "inappropriate" interest. that museum has a collection of glass flowers
made by some french brothers, which are supposed to be extraordinary, but i;ve
blocked them from my memory because of the innumerable times i was dragged to
see them in tow with my parents and their visitors from out of town. the cafe
algiers, in the brattle street building, is a long loved place of mine, though
it used to be funkier, underground, full of chess-playing pretensious wanna be
writers ("joyce is the only other writer as dedicated wordplay and etymologies,"
one said to me once when i was about 17. other than whom, i asked. well, me,
he replied), and plo supporters. now it's more ordinary, but still a point of
nostalgia for me.
as for anthologies, i wasn't on the list at the time of the discussion, but i'm
spozed to give a talk at mla on that subject. anyone care to recap the major
aspects of the discussion? or, how cn i get hold of the "transcripts"
thereof?--md
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 16:47:55 +0000
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From: cris cheek <cris@SLANG.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: new meanings for old words or old meanings for new words?
Reinvigorating apparently stranded terminology (of which we
might well all have a lengthy list) is one of 'our' poetries' more
intriguing functions. In the process poetry can sensitise agendas that have
lain dormant or been wilfully ignored.
I appreciate Steve's point regarding specificity and
subtlety of discourse and of listening (with a wide angle) to each other's
curiosity in these respects.
Challenge is to navigate beyond the routine ironising of
pomo without being po-faced or as Steve points out (invoking 'soul food' as
the indulgence of the Romantics) - nostalgic. Interfuse the ordinary and
the extraordinary - bringing spirituality into an integral engagement
with the everyday? Compose the day.
love and love
cris
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 13:17:40 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Pierre Joris <joris@CSC.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Duras
In-Reply-To: <300fc3120862002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> from "maria damon" at Jul 21,
95 10:09:07 am
Maria writes:
>i've found this a great text to teach, esp in connection with the master/slave
>dialectic... wasn't it dictated, rather than written, because she was too out
>of it (alcoholically) to hold a pen? amazing, that it shd come out of an
>alcoholic "stupor"--md
I don't remember the dictation part, or, rather don't know if that is
how that specific text was composed, but indeed, she did dictate some
of her writings. If you remmebr where that story comes from, I'd be
interested in knowing more about it.
=======================================================================
Pierre Joris | He who wants to escape the world, translates it.
Dept. of English | --Henri Michaux
SUNY Albany |
Albany NY 12222 | "Herman has taken to writing poetry. You
tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | need not tell anyone, for you know how
email: | such things get around."
joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --Mrs. Melville in a letter to her mother.
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 13:28:30 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Alan Sondheim <sondheim@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: Duras
In-Reply-To: <199507211300.JAA05627@loki.albany.edu>
I have never gotten over Destroy, She Said, which has continued to affect
my own work, as voices become untethered, lose their moorings, become
slightly dangerous -
Alan
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 12:26:03 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "A. Morris" <amorris@BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>
Subject: opportunity knock
In-Reply-To: <300fc5cc1852002@maroon.tc.umn.edu>
The MFA in Nonfiction Writing program at Iowa has just this morning been
notified that we've been allotted three Patricia Roberts Harris fellowships
for minority students to enroll in August, so I'm writing to ask if
anyone knows of a writer who might be interested in applying.
The MFA in Nonfiction Writing is not connected with the Writers Workshop
but with the Iowa English Department. It's a relatively small program
(about 12-15 entering students a year) for people who want to
concentrate on writing nonfiction essays. It's a two-and-a-half year
commitment ending in a thesis (a book of nonfiction essays). The people
teaching in the program include Patricia Foster, Tom Simmons, Paul Diehl, Carl
Klaus, and Susan Lohafer; visitors have included Patricia Hampl, Terry
Tempest Williams, Gerald Early, etc. The students are generally older, some
come from a publishing background, some are experienced writers, most are
people who've written at night after their regular job is over and want to see
what it would be to follow out a writing life.
The PRH fellowships offer a 12-month stipend for $14,400 plus (I think)
tuition. If you know of anyone who would be interested, have him/her
contact Paul Diehl (319/335-0473 or 319/338-5754) or e-mail me at the
above address or call (319/354-0492) ASAP. At such short notice,
people can apply by faxing a creative nonfiction writing sample and a short
letter. Since everything here shuts down by August 4th to start
again August 21st, we'd have to make decisions in ten days or so.
If you know of anyone who might qualify--i.e. is a passionate and
committed writer interested in nonfiction essays and a person of
color--let them know as soon as possible..
Thanks,
Dee--
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 11:04:23 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ryan Knighton <knighton@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Duras
In-Reply-To: <199507211300.JAA05627@loki.albany.edu> from "Pierre Joris" at
Jul 21, 95 09:00:49 am
Thanks everyone for the info. I'm trying to track down the films, now.
If anyone is interested, the text I found is called Two By Duras,
pblshed by Coach House ( i think I puth this on one of my bedside lists,
but just got to it). Cheers.
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 11:45:08 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM>
Subject: Re: Grolier Books & the Perils of Essentialism
I want to second Maria Damon's suggestion about Grolier's in Cambridge and
make an additional suggestion that you always ask for anything you can't
find there.
Everything isn't in one alphabetical order in the general shelves. There
are a number of special interest areas (for example some, but not all,
geographic areas, ethnic groups, styles, and languages have their own
shelves) which aren't always easily marked, but where you can often find
books that don't seem to be there.
I was there soon after Robin Blaser's Holy Forest was published and it
wasn't in the general section, it wasn't in the Gay section, but there were
several copies in the Canadian section. I don't remember if all of Edmond
Jabes books were in the French section or the Jewish section, but he was
only in one or the other. What gets stocked in the Language poetry section
seems often to be determined more by a book's publisher than anything else.
This can be frustrating, but once you know to ask the number of books
available at Grolier's nearly doubles.
Herb Levy
herb@eskimo.com
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 15:20:11 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X
From: Alan Golding <ACGOLD01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject: Various and sundry
Associate Professor of English, U. of Louisville
Phone: (502)-852-5918; e-mail: acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu
Marisa: You probably know about the Loy book that Keith Tuma and Maeera
Shreiber are editing (do you have an essay in it?). Maybe that would be a
possibility for your Loy transcript? Or Sagetrieb?
Haines on Hoover: Well, again, as with the Rainey/HD shenanigans, and D.
Porter on ED, the mind boggles . . . mine seems to be boggling a lot lately,
and doing little else. But more seriously: I've written a little on the
Weinberger and Hoover anthologies in From Outlaw to Classic, but am in the
process of doing more, on them, on Doug Messerli's anthology, and on Dennis
Barone and Peter GAnick's. I'd be interested in reviews of any and all of
these that any of you might come across. (I know Hank Lazer's piece in Con.
Lit., something from TLS, a Thom Gunn review in Threepenny Review.)
On tapes: the taping thread prompted me to mention something you might find of
use/interest. At the Twentieth-Century Lit. Conference here, we videotape the
keynote readings, talks, and performances, and copies are available for
non-commercial use (the authors have signed a release) at around 10 or 15
bucks. So there's some spectacular performances from recent years from Charles
Bernstein, Susan Howe, David Antin, Clayton Eshleman, Ed Dorn, just to mention
a few likely to be of particular interest to this list. Also Sherley Anne
Williams, Michael Burkard, Louise Gluck, Enid Dame, Alicia Ostriker, Eleanor
Wilner (nearly put Elinor Wylie!), Jonathan Holden, W. S. Merwin. The tapes of
Charles, Susan, and David are particular faves of mine.
Have a good weekend, y'all.
Alan
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 12:44:25 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ryan Knighton <knighton@SFU.CA>
Subject: Open Mike Titles
In-Reply-To: <199507211717.NAA05928@loki.albany.edu> from "Pierre Joris" at
Jul 21, 95 01:17:40 pm
More Likely Open MiKe Titles (add to Regs and stir):
The Bastard Peeped
How I Get Off in Detail
Howl II
Crossing the Perplexing Void Thing
Let Me Tell You Something About Yourself Youre Too Stupid To Know
Heaven Pissed Me Off
Howl III
I Cant Hear Myself Think Sometimes
Litter Dispatch
Carry Me Back To Ol Virginie
Feeling Pigeon Parked
Ode to Howl II
If I Were Terminally Ill
Keep Off Grass, It Said
Perfect
I Love My Bike So Much
Nipple Nipple Nipple
Gauche Sins
What Is This In Hell
Stillborn and Other Edibles
I Need A Lift To Miami, Man
Bummerdrag
You Know What Its Like When Its Like That
Fuck You, Aunt Helen
Once Upon a Trailer Park Calm
Do Tell, Suzy Q
Make Me Squeal With Your Vibe
Bunyons Blue Ox Fell
The Fat Ladys Singin
I Wrote This All By My Lonesome
Roadkill Grill
Punt
Me and Sister Anna on the TransCanada
Got a Chevy Full of Neuroses
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 16:34:55 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rod Smith <AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: the politics of dub
For the sake of a bit more than argument I'd like to take an anarchist stance
on this issue. I don't think our lurker friend should feel guilty for
offering to copy that tape. The technology exists, she has the tape, she cld
get it to M.D. as easy or perhaps easier than he cld order it. It is also
quite possible that hearing this tape wld cause listener(s) to buy books they
might not otherwise have bought.
The Grateful Dead encourages bootlegging of their music-- it ain't hurt them.
They've been consistently one of the top grossing bands since the late '80s.
Bob Dylan hates bootlegging-- but I think he has benefited from it as he
doesn't release his best work (or rarely)-- people can find out just how good
he is from bootlegs & maybe buy more albums &/or go to concerts as a result.
(He's worth seeing agn by the way, just plain didn't care for a while there).
This seems to me true of less commercial work as well. I know people have
bought books by poets that I've taped for them they would not otherwise have
bought. The propaganda goes that one is taking money out an artist's pocket
when one makes a copy. I don't think that's the way artists end up making
money. They do it largely via garnering reputation which eventually receives
monetary reward (usually institutional). You're not likely to garner anything
if people can't encounter yr work.
There are trickier questions here too which Cris C articulated well. But to
take it even further-- Why is a performance of music not as much the
"property" of the people in the room as of the musicians. It is a collective
consensual experience after all, & should be recognized as such. To get more
to the heart of it I think is that there seems some idea that there will be
justice if the rules are followed. Ain't with that. The rules are written by
a ruling elite in their interest, they will be the ones to profit when the
rules are followed. Personally, that curbs my enthusiasm for following the
rules. Kathy Acker's mess over 4 pages of Harold Robbins' which was
substantially altered is an example of this. (She has an excellent piece in
the first _Postmodern Culture_ (available via e-mail
pmc@jefferson.village.virginia.edu. it's indexed as ACKER.99) abt this that
actually also bears very interestingly on the soul thing (what abt "spirit"
anyway, let's be bald abt it, o no, maybe I've started it up agn)).
I'm NOT making a case for Pirating, I hope that's obvious.I'm not sure it is
tho, maybe I'm arguing for A COMMUNITY OF PIRATES THAT HAVE BRAINS. However
_selling_ other artists materials w/out their consent is not what I'm
referring to. Making it available to others where it otherwise wld not be (at
no profit to the provider) is what I'm talking abt. So I don't see, in the
end, any valid moral or economic arguments against using my tape dubbing
system as I please. Or, for that matter my desktop xerox (which I just got,
FREE. Ha!) I am after all lucky enough, i.e. priveleged enough to have access
to a lot of cultural materials, which NEED to be shared, I think. If for any
reason anyone has a tape of my work they want to copy or wants to xerox
something, go for it. (Actually there are a few readings I've done I know
were taped that I never got copies). But the work, IT'S NOT MINE ANYWAY, &
I'm not sure it ever was.
Cage: "ART IS CRIMINAL ACTION."
I wonder sometimes if you can tell it's art by how many people need to
dismiss or attack it. {That's not asking to be attacked, just a little old
opinion from a silly wittle poet in the age of mechaniacal (not sic)
repatriation. . .
--Rod
PS- Clint Burnham's _The Jamesonian Unconscious_ is out from Duke. References
a number of language poets & punk bands in a rather concomitant
monad-analogical
heist picture of misdiagnosis, i.e. it's precisely the tool to confuse
personal ethics for class struggle in a different register and for quite
different narrative ends. Check it out.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 16:59:08 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jordan Davis." <Jordan70@AOL.COM>
Subject: fishmonger
Mike
I have to catch a train in an hour so I'll rush this and mess it up. It may
be that my brain was steeped in Deleuze. However. It does seem to me that
there are these reverences that go beyond criticism--let's call them loves.
Wittgenstein, in my neighborhood, seems to be one of those. And the
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 19:19:06 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From: Rod Smith <AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Various and sundry
A.G.--
Please post a number &/or address for these tapes of CB, SH, etcetal. Thanks.
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 20:45:55 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: prosody and conversion
Marjorie,
I was the one who suggested the sexual - Herbert connection. But of
course the conversion thing--yet, how does sitting fit into that concept?
I of course can imagine eating (eucharist).
On the subject of free or enslaved verse and feet:
I just in the mail today got a copy of :
RETHINKING METER: A NEW APPROACH TO THE VERSE LINE by Alan Holder,
Bucknell UP.
I won't go through the entire jacket copy, but here are some snatches of it:
"the committment to the foot as a measure satisfies ad desire for a poem to
display a system"
"But that system is achieved only at the cost of [etc.]"
Holder "discards the approach" whereby on the one hand there is the ideal
line and on the other the actual line and the reader apprehends a tension"
[that was a paraphrase]
i.e., Holder's approach avoids a dualism.
also the book criticizes previous theoretical approaches including those
purporting to be non-dualistic.
Holder finally discards the notion of meter altogether and thus approaches
the line not through the foot but the phrase. Yet H. still feels that the
"line" is what marks poetry from prose.
He draws on linguistics among other disciplines to make his argument.
I would imagine Holder is looking for reviewers. He can be reached
for whatever reason at the Dept of English, Hunter College, CUNY,
695 Park ave., NYC 10021, USA.
BK
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 20:51:05 EST
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From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Herbert & Communion
Charles,
I can see the sex-religious thing in the Middle aGes before Luther than
in Herbert's time (I'm thinking now of Boswell's book on same-sex early
and mid Middle Ages religious ceremonies--though I will have to say that
the book is controversial, but Boswell had a good rep. over all; I'
haven't read it but heard him on the radio one day, very convincing.)
anyway, thanks. maybe you (we) are right.
burt
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 20:55:52 EST
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From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: anthologies
Hank, Marjorie,et al.,
Haines is in the Story Line Press stable, whence springs neo-formalism
etc., sired out of Hudson Review, Bruce (mr. obtuse) Bawer of New Criterion
infamy. Well, I shouldn't say sired, since Haines is no young man.
got carried away with the equinious possibilities.
BK
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 23:03:09 -0800
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From: Blair Seagram <blairsea@PANIX.COM>
Subject: KennyG's Home Page/Visual Poetry
Comments: cc: wr-eye-tings@sfu.ca
To those of you interested in visual poetry:
I have been sending gif files to Kenny Goldsmith and he has been putting
them up on his home page. At the moment I am the only person he has listed
under visual poetry. I need some company! And I know Kenny wants a bigger
selection, or should I say, he wants a selection. Sooooo, I am encouraging
people to send him their work.
You may want to check out the page first. The address is:
http://wfmu.org/~kennyg/
If you don't have a graphics browser, like Netscape, you can get his page
but you won't get the visual files.
I am on a Mac and I'm not sure who else is. My procedure is to bring my
work into photoshop and make the necessary adjustments for the home page
there, then save the piece as a gif. After that I send it to Kenny as an
attachment.
Photoshop is the only program I know of that will save a file as a gif,
which I think is better than jpeg. I have written quite a few things in
Quark Xpress. Unfortunately one cannot bring a Quark eps into Photoshop
with any degree of success. Contrary to what one would think, eps is not a
universal format. This means anything I want to put on the web that I have
written in Quark will need to be recreated in another program. For me, that
would be Adobe Illustrator. Illustrator eps's are compatible with Photoshop
and come in with no problem. You can work on an Illustrator file in
Photoshop should you so desire.
Failing that, a person can scan in a visual poem and save it as a gif in
photoshop. However the file will no doubt be larger than a file created
directly on the computer.
Once in Photoshop
1. Save your document.
2. Under Image choose Image Size and set the Resolution to 72 pixels/inch.(OK)
3. Under Mode choose Indexed Color and set the Resolution to 8 bits, the
Palette to Adaptive Color and the Dither to
Diffusion.(OK)
4. Save as CompuServe Gif.
5. Send as an attachment to Kenny.
Backchannel me (blairsea@panix.com)if you have any questions or problems.
Backchannel Kenny (kgolds@panix.com) if you want to know more about the
home page etc.
I might mention here that poems configured on the unix bulletin boards
directly, will hold there formatting if I print them out directly from the
list, but lose their formatting when I save them to my hard drive and try
to print them out in teachtext or MS Word.
This happened today when I tried to print out a post of Karl Young's with a
poem made by configurations of the word love, with an emphasis on evol. I
believe it is by bpNichol whose work I know only through these lists.
Luckily I still had the poem on my mail list and was able to print it
correctly.
Sweet dreams
Blair
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 23:30:29 -0800
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From: Blair Seagram <blairsea@PANIX.COM>
Subject: continued home page
Comments: cc: wr-eye-tings@sfu.ca
PS - I forgot to say that if you are scanning in images, scan them in at a
higher resolution that 72 dpi. If possible try 300 dpi or if not 200 dpi,
then after you have saved your doc in Photoshop, reduce the resolution in
image size to 72 pixels. Keep the size at 100%. This will improve the
quality of your image.
Goodnight.
Blair
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 21:34:43 -0700
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From: Steve Carll <sjcarll@SLIP.NET>
Subject: juvenilia
>Anyone else care to flaunt their juvenilia?
>
>Nada
Hoo boy. I'm still not sure if I'm *out* of my juvenilia yet. These are
great poems, though. Thanks for sharing.
Steve
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 21:34:45 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From: Steve Carll <sjcarll@SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: free verse foot
> Since, however, there is no free verse foot, and since it
> is strictly impermissible to alter typography in a genuine
> confrontation of all the linguistic features of the line,
> we must accept Zygmunt Czerny's axiom that each line in
> free verse is "quantitatively independent of the previous
> one" and Barbara Herrnstein Smith's that the line is "not
> a constant unit but the acknowledgement of a limit of
> variability." In fact, the line is the notation of how the
> poem is to be read.
>
>
>I wonder if whoever recommended this essay, or anyone else, cares to
>comment on those statements, especially on the assumption, "there is
>no free verse foot."
I think there is no *single* "free verse foot", though each poem or section
or line of free verse poetry has obviously some patternable collection of
beats (anyone read Jim Rosenberg's recent post of his "Notes Toward a
Non-linear Prosody of Space"?), that it sets up, ad-hoc, as it were. I'm
not sure why it's impermissable to alter typography (whose permission does
one have to obtain?), though, or how this would constitute a genuine
confrontation of all the linguistic features of the line, so the two axioms
have to be withheld until someone can explain it to me.
Steve
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 23:54:30 +0000
Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <jzitt@bga.com>
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@HUMANSYSTEMS.COM>
Organization: HumanSystems
Subject: Re: KennyG's Home Page/Visual Poetry
Comments: To: Blair Seagram <blairsea@PANIX.COM>
On 21 Jul 95 at 23:03, Blair Seagram wrote:
> To those of you interested in visual poetry:
>
> I have been sending gif files to Kenny Goldsmith and he has been putting
> them up on his home page. At the moment I am the only person he has listed
> under visual poetry. I need some company! And I know Kenny wants a bigger
> selection, or should I say, he wants a selection. Sooooo, I am encouraging
> people to send him their work.
> You may want to check out the page first. The address is:
> http://wfmu.org/~kennyg/
Great! I've taken a look and like what I see. I'm about to start
putting a new work on the Web as a series of GIFs (since page design
is important to it, and GIFs are a whole lot more accessible and
compact than Postscript or just about anything else), and will
contact him about linking to it.
> I am on a Mac and I'm not sure who else is. My procedure is to bring my
> work into photoshop and make the necessary adjustments for the home page
> there, then save the piece as a gif. After that I send it to Kenny as an
> attachment.
For what it's worth: I'm developing mine in Word for Windows. Once a
page is done, I use a screen capture program, SuperClip (available
from the SimTel mirror archives) to grab the window. I then trim it
to a consistent 375x490 pixels in SuperClip, save it as a GIF, then
go into LView and convert the GIF to B&W. The resulting GIFs are
running about 8 or 9 K.
(The stuff should be at
http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/tsiuf/
by Monday or so.)
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/ Online Representative, Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 00:22:36 -0500
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: prosody and conversion
burt k writes
> Marjorie,
>
>
>
snatches of:
committment to the foot as measure
satisfies ad desire
for a poem to dis/
pla(y)ce a "system"
adpoems, foot fetishism, snatching desire out of displaced systems of
dis/play...someone witty could base a whole standup routine on this issue
--anyone wanna go for it?--md
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 16:08:59 -0700
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From: "Sheila E. Murphy" <semurphy@INDIRECT.COM>
Subject: Re: aleatoric furnishing
Ryan, You remind me of one of my favorite arrangements: the empty apartment
up in Escanaba (effectively a pre-life now, it seems) before the furniture
arrived. Not what you are getting at, I know. But is was my favorite or
among my favorite arrangements. Felt abundant, as do many such reversals.
But as for aleatory, I might propose creating a nice tone row of your
liking, then assigning notes of the scale (chromatic, of course) to various
objects and then placing them in a row.
of course, there's always the old favorite of drawing numbers from a hat (or
crayons - but not on a warm day and not in Phoenix) and determining a nice
little chancy order in which things can be allowed to land and be awhile.
I've just gotten off a plane from LAX, which I'll blame for this odd little
missive.
Best of luck with your move!
SEM
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Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 03:13:53 -0700
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: who is Woody Allen
Rachel wrote...
>Woody Allen is Allen Stewart Konigsberg, originally.
And it was my grandfather who acquired the name Silliman when he was
adopted. Otherwise I would be Ron McMahon, so McMahon, Konigsberg and
Zukofsky--a law firm, indeed.
I've always had the light alienation from my name (having had virtually
no relationship to my father or his family) that I took Edward Howard
Symmes to have had once his adoptive parents rechristened him Robert
Duncan.
How is it Zukofsky seems to have "kept" his name across history? Or did
he?
Ron
rsillima@ix.netcom.com
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Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 03:34:52 -0700
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: who is Woody Allen
Maria,
to your question:
did your agent or translator or did the journal itself propose in an
introduction or some such a "vision" or rationale for grouping the 3 of
you together?
I have no idea. It was the first time in my life where I was in a
grouping in which I was the "tall" one. (Not, however, the first time I
was the "the goy")
Ron
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Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 03:47:04 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Soul/body
Gabrielle,
"If anyone wants the transcript (Loy/Vas Dias), just send me
postage..."
So where do we send this postage? Do get back up on email. It's very
confusing to see you channeled hither and yon.
All best,
Ron
rsillima@ix.netcom.com
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Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 03:50:01 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Bryher
Does anyone know of a good collection of the writings of Bryher, HD's
companion?
Ron Silliman
rsillima@ix.netcom.com
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Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 03:57:01 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Address
Aldon,
The address is:
116 Biddle Road
Paoli, PA 19301
Everyone is encouraged to send me their latest mags and/or books. Out
here, Borders looks like Cody's (while everything else looks like
Borders). The major confusion I see in the bookstores is whether Khalil
Gibran is poetry or philosophy....
Ron
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Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 04:19:44 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: A foot to kick John Haines with
Marjorie,
I liked Haines' Wesleyan books in the 60s mildly. His neocon side (like
that of Roger Shattuck, who had one very interesting book of neosurreal
poems during that decade also) had not yet emerged. The New Criterion
is quite amazing, particularly given Hilton's stance that the function
of modernism was to establish standards and that this is the proper
role of the critic.
>Tom: how can there be a free-verse foot? By definition, free verse
means
>you're not counting stresses or syllables so what is a free-verse
foot?
Are there not "feet" in all prosody? Free verse means not being
artificially bound by a set pattern thereof. Again, to recall McClure
sending his students off to the zoo to "scan the lions"...
Ron
rsillima@ix.netcom.com
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Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 04:24:03 -0700
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: furnished
>
Bruce Andrews used to have his book collection organized by the color
of the jacket design, a rainbow effect (that meant he had to remember
what a given book looked like and hope that sun fading didn't alter the
order). Don't know if he still does....
Ron
rsillima@ix.netcom.com
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Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 09:40:00 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tom Mandel <tmandel@UMD5.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: furnished
re: Ron's
"Bruce Andrews used to have his book collection organized by the color
of the jacket design..."
Last I heard, the books were color-coded still. But will we really
know? bruce is now the only poet I know who doesn't have or use
a computer (and I am trying to remember if I've ever had a typed
note from him...). Why does this seem at once so unlikely and so
appropriate?
Tom Mandel
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Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 09:19:49 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: who is Woody Allen
ron silliman writes:
.. it was my grandfather who acquired the name Silliman when he was
> adopted. Otherwise I would be Ron McMahon, so McMahon, Konigsberg and
> Zukofsky--a law firm, indeed.
--reminds me of this Jewish joke where an Irish guy goes into a store named
Houlihan and Rosenbloom, and is greeted by a little old man in yarmulke, beard,
etc. The customer says, "Isn't it a wonderful surprise to see our two people
getting along so well and working together." The little old guy beams and nods
and says, "I've got an even bigger surprise for you. I'm Houlihan."
>
> I've always had the light alienation from my name (having had virtually
> no relationship to my father or his family) that I took Edward Howard
> Symmes to have had once his adoptive parents rechristened him Robert
> Duncan.
-I thought it was the other way around, his adoptive parents were named Symmes
and he was Robert Symmes until he came of age and did his research, then he
switched back to Duncan?--(faas biog?)
>
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Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 09:33:03 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Duras
pierre writes of m duras's maladie de la mort:
>
> I don't remember the dictation part, or, rather don't know if that is
> how that specific text was composed, but indeed, she did dictate some
> of her writings. If you remmebr where that story comes from, I'd be
> interested in knowing more about it.
>
I remember hearing this from a student who did a presentation on it in class.
she had the information from an article on duras, or from, as i recall, reviews
of the book, which was apparently not well received. the general sense this
student conveyed was that duras, otherwise tremendously respected, was seen to
be "falling down on the job" in this instance --not by the fact of dictation,
but by the book "itself." sorry this is such an impressionistic unscholarly
response, pierre. y-day i was cleaning out my office and came across a small
note in someone else's handwriting, about a "journal of durassian studies."
maybe those were the student's notes and that was her source. hope all's well
chez toi (et vous) in albany!--md
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Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 09:37:59 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: my other obsession
does anyone know of any jewish cultural studies lists on the e, and how to
subscribe? i'm anxious to spend 100% of my time, rather than simply the current
90% of my time, in front of my monitor while the short minnesota summer cavorts
carnivalesquely around me.--md
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 10:44:37 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "A. Morris" <amorris@BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bryher
Comments: To: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
In-Reply-To: <199507221050.DAA23143@ix5.ix.netcom.com>
On Sat, 22 Jul 1995, Ron Silliman wrote:
> Does anyone know of a good collection of the writings of Bryher, HD's
> companion?
>
> Ron Silliman
> rsillima@ix.netcom.com
>
Ron:
There is no collected writings and I'm not sure what's still in print but
a good university library--or even public library--should have two of her
more interesting pieces: The Days of Mars: A Memoir, 1940-46 (about
living through WWII in London) and The Heart to Artemis: A Writer's
Memoirs (about her life as a writer and dedicated to "my master, Stephane
Mallarme"). Unlike Mallarme, as you no doubt know, she mostly wrote
historical novels: Ruan, Gate to the Sea, Roman Wall, The Player's Boy,
The Fourteenth of October. She also founded, edited, and wrote for Close
Up, one of the first journals of avant-garde cinema & theory, which can
be located in university libraries in microfilm. Her poetry is here and
there in little journals of the twenties and thirties but never gathered, at
least that I know of. She also wrote a pretty interesting early
developmental novel called "Two Selves," part of which is a fierce attack
on education in England.
Dee
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 13:13:32 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ryan Knighton <knighton@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: furnished
In-Reply-To: <199507221340.JAA22008@yorick.umd.edu> from "Tom Mandel" at Jul
22, 95 09:40:00 am
Sheila, Tom, Ron, etc...
Colour seems to be the favoured system. Unfortunately, being mostly
blind, my stuff is drab in this respect. I like S. Murphy's jet=lagged
idea to draw numbers or use cards, but I don't have any. My most
recent notion is to arrange my furniture and kitchen as I do
my books: alphabetically. This is very arbitrary and Nicholesque.
Moreover, when bumping about in the dark, or in a stupor, or for fun,
I can navigate by touch translated to letter. Ah, my couch==my coffe
table must be behind me. Or, did I call it a chesterfield when
I was setting up shop? I think I will now backtrack to bed. Goodnight all.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 13:44:31 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: furnished
Tom,
bruce is now the only poet I know who doesn't have or use
>a computer (and I am trying to remember if I've ever had a typed
>note from him...). Why does this seem at once so unlikely and so
>appropriate?
Let's see: Leslie Scalapino I believe still types (tho she lurks here
through Tom's university account I do believe); ditto Eigner, Weiner,
Grenier (when he isn't scribbling).
I was at one of the evenings that Kevin Magee and Myung Mi Kim have
been putting on in El Cerrito and a discussion of the internet rose
briefly, to be met by several of the 25 or so poets by the "oh, that's
for those with computers" class line.
Ron
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 13:16:49 -40962758
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jim Rosenberg <jr@AMANUE.PGH.NET>
Subject: Re: Exercise(s)
Herb Levy:
> there are very few
> poems that serve the same kind of function as musical "etudes" do.
"Variations Done for Gerald Van de Wiele", by Charles Olson. Yes??
If someone asked me what was my "favorite poem", I would have to say that this
poem blew my mind at a fairly young age as the most amazing poem in the
English language, and I haven't changed my opinion since.
--
Jim Rosenberg http://www.well.com/user/jer/
CIS: 71515,124
WELL: jer
Internet: jr@amanue.pgh.net
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 13:23:34 -40962758
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jim Rosenberg <jr@AMANUE.PGH.NET>
Subject: Re: manipulators
John Geraets:
> On behalf of a fellow Nagoyan, Bruce Malcolm, I'd
> like to ask does anyone know of text manipulation
> software, randomizers, whatever, that may be commercially
> available (or not, as the case may be).
I haven't used chance to produce "final outcomes" in my work for a very long
time, but I use chance as an indispensable "precompositional" aid, permuting
reservoirs of words as part of a process of making "prompt sheets" that I
write from to produce the final outcome. The program that I use to do this is
a simple portable C program; it assumes as units whatever text is between
blank lines, and pseudo-randomly permutes these. If anyone has any use for it,
send me E-mail and I'll send it to you.
--
Jim Rosenberg http://www.well.com/user/jer/
CIS: 71515,124
WELL: jer
Internet: jr@amanue.pgh.net
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 17:33:41 -40962758
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jim Rosenberg <jr@AMANUE.PGH.NET>
Subject: Re: Free Verse Foot
Marjorie Perloff:
> Tom: how can there be a free-verse foot? By definition, free verse means
> you're not counting stresses or syllables so what is a free-verse foot?
Sigh. Beeeg sigh. [Risk of sounding petulant sigh ...]
Umm, Marjorie (and all the other folks wondering this) please *read* section
I.3 of the article I posted here not so many days ago called "Notes Toward a
Non-linear Prosody of Space." It contains a very detailed and specific
proposal for how a concept of free-verse foot can be constructed. I do
prefer a new term (I use 'measure') over foot, precisely because foot does
have so much baggage. If you believe that the concept presented there is not
viable, I would be *delighted* to hear the argument.
The ideas in the first part of that article are well over 20 years old. I
remember giving a workshop on this at Mark Linnenathal's (sp?) class at the
Poetry Center in S.F. A couple of days later I spoke to one of the students
who was there. He said that as I was talking, he was saying to himself "well
that all sounds nice but surely he can't be talking about poets like, say,
*Creeley*." Then we *scanned* Creeley. He said it blew his mind. A couple
of the names of students I remember from that class were Keith Shein and Ted
Pearson. (I think Beverly Dahlen was there too, but am not sure.)
--
Jim Rosenberg http://www.well.com/user/jer/
CIS: 71515,124
WELL: jer
Internet: jr@amanue.pgh.net
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 08:14:34 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Sheila E. Murphy" <semurphy@INDIRECT.COM>
Subject: Re: Exercise(s)
Jim Rosenberg writes:
>"Variations Done for Gerald Van de Wiele", by Charles Olson. Yes??
>
>If someone asked me what was my "favorite poem", I would have to say that this
>poem blew my mind at a fairly young age as the most amazing poem in the
>English language, and I haven't changed my opinion since.
Jim, I don't have the "Variations" poem by Olson. Where does that appear?
Thanks.
Sheila Murphy
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 19:15:06 -0400
Reply-To: Robert Drake <au462@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Robert Drake <au462@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Exercise(s)
"Variations done for Gerald Van De Wiele" appears in _The Distances_
(Evergreen), & in _Archaeologist of Morning_ (Grossman); praps others
, but those were on the desk...
luigi
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 18:40:52 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steve Carll <sjcarll@SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: the politics of dub
I have to agree with Rod here, as a receiver of cultural materials who
doesn't want to be reduced to his roles as producer and consumer. With both
music and literature, I certainly give whatever economic support I can to
those who are doing work I'm interested in, but I'm myself below the poverty
line, so I have to improvise. That means having stuff taped and Xeroxed for
me. If it really blows my mind, I do go out and buy it "for real", so the
artist who feels her work has been appropriated by these activities might
look at them as a kind of "loss leader". I have a certain set amount of
money I can spend, whether I can "bootleg" or not. Not being able to
bootleg only means I'll be less aware of what's out there when I'm able to
spend the money, and therefore less likely to take a chance on someone whose
work I'm not familiar with.
Steve
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 13:46:17 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Sheila E. Murphy" <semurphy@INDIRECT.COM>
Subject: Re: Olson Poem
Jim, I just came upon the "Variations..." poem by Olson in the
Collected...Thanks for mentioning this wonderful piece, which I'm enjoying.
(I'll use any excuse to read Olson, any time).
Best,
Sheila
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 21:27:35 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Free Verse Foot
In-Reply-To: <m0sZmB4-000FYfC@amanue.pgh.net> from "Jim Rosenberg" at Jul 22,
95 05:33:41 pm
I cant believe, all these years later, that some readers (listeners?)
still think there can be poetic feet only in regular verse. (As if
feet cannot dance the way WCW describes his dancing in Book V) That
is like the English people who still think that rhyme means
end-rhyme.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 21:49:17 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: aleatoric furnishing
In-Reply-To: <199507212308.QAA00968@bob.indirect.com> from "Sheila E. Murphy"
at Jul 21, 95 04:08:59 pm
Ryan, I think you should arrange yr furniture by size. If you have
rtooms, put all the big things in one room till it is full, and thern
middle sized things in the next one, etc. If you have enough rooms
the last one will just have the salt shaker in it, and that is
something you could sit and look at, count the holes, make yr guests
guess the number.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 21:53:21 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: anthologies
In-Reply-To: <300fc5cc1852002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> from "maria damon" at Jul 21,
95 10:20:47 am
How could anyone recommend places to see in Boston without mentioning
Fenway Park? A guy in yr Congress a few years ago tried to have it
preserved as a National Park, a good idea that got shot down. If
George Stanley & I were going to Boston we wd go to Fenway Park.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 06:41:02 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rachel Loden <74277.1477@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: who is Robert Duncan
Ron and Maria,
My understanding, too, is that Duncan was born Edward Howard
Duncan, and adopted as Robert Edward Symmes. Hilde Burton
(his longtime friend) would know, and I could ask--but it's
in the bio, yes?
Rachel
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 06:57:30 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rachel Loden <74277.1477@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: rebbe-l
Maria,
I just got a list of Jewish lists by sending the message
"lists global Jew" (w/out quotes) to listserv@listserv.net
If you have any trouble I can forward it to you--
Rachel
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 10:01:20 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: rebbe-l
In message <950723105730_74277.1477_HHJ10-5@CompuServe.COM> UB Poetics
discussion group writes:
> Maria,
>
> I just got a list of Jewish lists by sending the message
> "lists global Jew" (w/out quotes) to listserv@listserv.net
>
> If you have any trouble I can forward it to you--
>
> Rachel
thanks,rachel. now my modem and i can just sit here in the dark into
perpetuity. that "global Jew" phrase seems to intimate...well, how shd i say
it...a conspiracy?
--rebbe w/out a cause
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 08:51:32 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Shaunanne Tangney <st@SCS.UNR.EDU>
Subject: George and Ludwig (fwd)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 22:55:56 -1000
From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@hawaii.edu>
To: Shaunanne Tangney <st@scs.unr.edu>
Subject: George and Ludwig
Dear Shaunanne. It's happened again. I thought I was subscribed ok, but
NOT! Could you forward this for me? No changing things if you don't
agree with them! Gab.
On Sun, 16 Jul 1995, Rod Smith wrote:
> Gabrielle,
> Really, it's all there in the _Tractatus_? I'm not _that_ versed in L.W. but
> had thought the more contextual understanding of language games etc. comes
> after, late 20s? mid '30s?
>
Well, in fact there are those who see much more of a continuum between
Tractatus and PI, among them my erstwhile teacher Peter Winch. The
argument is something like--and since it is more than 20 years since I
was immersed in this, forgive me for rusty hinges--even at the early
stage of the Tr, Witt was pursuing an internal logical investigation of
what is and what is not possible. It was in fact an investigation of
the logical workings of language even at that stage and not an empiricist
attempt to splice language to the world. E.g., 6.37 There is no
compulsion making one thing happen because another has happened. The
only necessity that exists is _logical_ necessity. Or 6.43 If the good
or bad exercise of the will does alter the world, it can alter only the
limits of the world, not the facts--not what can be expressed by means of
language.//In short the effect must be that it becomes an altogether
different world. It must, so to speak, wax and wane as a whole.//The
world of the happy man is a different one from that of the unhappy man.
> Re: "unlearning the beaten paths" -- Hejinian has a great statement on that,
> "Once one sought a vocabulary for ideas, now one seeks ideas for
> vocabularies."
Yes, I like that.
Which points to possibilities, that the ideas are already
> extant, within language, within contexts
This, to me, gets dangerous again--as though the ideas like things exist
somehow within language but independent of it. Back to the private
image and solipsism.
Cage used to always say that ideas were "in the air" -- how
> else explain more than one inventor coming up with the same idea
> thousands of miles apart. One could say, well technology had reached the
> point where that idea was possible-- exactly, that idea existed, waiting to
> be discovered, "in the air."
>
We speak in wonderful metaphors (I'm getting pictures of ideas like
puppies waiting for an owner to come home). It only gets tricky if one
starts taking the metaphor seriously and concretizing it and using it to
explain the world. Look at how people make theories out of their
feelings, then concretize the theories and make the world fit their
feelings. It is possible to say "ideas are in the air."
That's one of the things we can say about ideas. What does that mean,
though, about the world?
Gab.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 09:54:23 PDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jerry Rothenberg <jrothenb@CARLA.UCSD.EDU>
Subject: Re: who is Robert Duncan
On the matter of Duncan's name(s), the information is all there in Duncan's
A SEQUENCE OF POEMS FOR H.D.'S BIRTHDAY, 4th section: born Edward Howard
Duncan, change of name described as "Robert they called me after a friend of
my adopted father's who had died. And they kept from my old name Edward.
Robert Edward Symmes." (from _Roots & Branches_)
One of the terrific Duncan poems of the late 1950s ... tying the personal to
much else (search for the missing Father/Mother -- even a little [dare we
say it?] "gnostic').
Jerome Rothenberg
jrothenb@carla.ucsd.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 10:54:14 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM>
Subject: Re: furnished
Ryan, put your furniture up any old way. The setting'll become aleatoric
soon enough.
All that talk about Bruce Andrews organizing his books by the colors of
their covers reminded me of another non-alphabetic cataloging system.
When I was in college, a friend kept his records in order of date of
composition (or, in the case of jazz, pop, or world music, date of
recording). Since he was interested in most kinds of music, this made for
some nice juxtapositions.
For instance, which Be-bop records were made around the same time as
Messiaen was writing Quartet for the End of Time, which (western) classical
pieces composed around the time of the Ramayana Monkey Chant (not, by the
way, a traditional work, but a contemporary composition from the early 20th
century), etc.
Herb Levy
herb@eskimo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 10:54:27 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM>
Subject: Re: Exercise(s)
Jim Rosenberg writes, quoting from an earlier post of mine:
>> there are very few
>> poems that serve the same kind of function as musical "etudes" do.
>
>"Variations Done for Gerald Van de Wiele", by Charles Olson. Yes??
>
>If someone asked me what was my "favorite poem", I would have to say that this
>poem blew my mind at a fairly young age as the most amazing poem in the
>English language, and I haven't changed my opinion since.
Jim Rosenberg is right. Forget my previous comments.
Clearly, any poem that has had this kind of effect on any reader, has
helped that reader to develop their own reading/perceiving techniques in a
manner analogous to a musical etude as an exercise as practise for a
particular performance "problem."
Bests,
Herb Levy
herb@eskimo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 11:07:22 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Marjorie Perloff <perloff@LELAND.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 21 Jul 1995 to 22 Jul 1995
In-Reply-To: <199507230403.VAA14480@leland.Stanford.EDU>
On free verse foot: I strongly recommend Henri Meschonnic's THEORIE DU
RYTHME, unfortunately not yet translated, but about to be I think. What
HM teaches us is that prosody most always be historicized: one period's
"verse" is another's "prose" etc. Now , yes, of course Creeley's poetry
can be scanned in the sense that you can count stresses (and slacks) per
line, talk about secondary sound features like alliteration, assonance,
consonance, rhyme, and come up with very definite patterns--but "foot"
implies a fixed metrical unit so I do agree with Jim that "measure" is
better but even that's not totally adequate.
I think a big project right now should be to look more closely at period
style today and determine why just about every poet on this net and other
interesting, innovative poets don't write metered verse or even free
verse, in a Williams-Creeley sense but write what's much closer to
Skeltonics or doggerel on the one hand, prose on the other and the sense
of "music" has dramatically shifted in, say, the last 20 years . That
might be a more fruitful avenue of investigation (i.e., historicize) than
to try to define "the foot" or "the measure" which, as Meschonnic shows,
can never quite be done.
Marjorie Perloff
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 15:54:33 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rod Smith <AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: George and Ludwig (fwd)
Thanks for the great feedback Gabrielle. I'm not stuck on the position I
presented (or maybe I am) but for the sake of the network of standard
stoppages I'll spin out a "defense."
Key to the differences we might have I think is this passage:
I wrote:
>. . .Which points to possibilities, that the ideas are already
> extant, within language, within contexts. . .
You responded:
>This, to me, gets dangerous again--as though the ideas like >things exist
somehow within language but independent of it. Back to the >private
>image and solipsism.
I don't see how what I wrote cld be construed as taking a position which
implied the formulation "within language but somehow independent of it." What
I wrote seems to me to be saying pretty much what the Hejinian quote I cited
is saying. Which is precisely that ideas are not private (subjective), but
rather contextual (intersubjective), in ways we don't entirely understand--
thus the "in the air" formulation. A more accurate formulation is probably
not possible because no context is _ultimately_ defineable, because all
contexts are interrelated. This is a bit of Buddhist propaganda, but it seems
to me useful. (I'm not arguing that there's never enough information in a
given situation to act, merely that there are always more elements which
could be taken into account). To boil it down perhaps what I'm saying is that
every idea is an interaction. That the "heart of an idea" is not locatable
"except in its use"!
> It only gets tricky if one
>starts taking the metaphor seriously and concretizing it and
using it to
>explain the world.
It seems to me the viability of this articulation is only apparent precisely
when it is concretized. A good example of this is Cage's process in his later
writings such as _Themes & Variations_ , _I-VI_, & "Art Is Either A Complaint
Or Do Something Else." In this series he tried, & I think he often succeeded,
"to find a way of writing which though coming from ideas is not about them;
or is not about ideas but produces them." The manner in which he did this is
outlined in the introduction to _I-VI_ and in the interview w/ Joan Retallack
in _Aerial 6/7_, among other places. Briefly, it involved subjecting a source
text (or texts) to chance operations which then presented him with a mix of
source materials in which he then searched for ideas, eliminating materials
which allowed them to emerge. These were not necessarily semantic "ideas" but
could as well be "musical"-- i.e. related to the sound and texture, the
movement of language, as well as to the making of statements, obviously they
are always in some sense both of these.
Though one need not cite Cage to illustrate my point. Ashbery's "floating
pronouns" in a poem like "These Lacustrine Cities," or
Mallarme's famous "All Thought emits a Throw of the Dice" ("Tout Pensee emet
un Coup de Des") can't figure how to get diactical markings on this new
keyboard)), relate to what I'm saying. More recently Carla Harryman's "Toy
Boats" in _Poetics Journal 5_ seems to me an excellent articulation of the
ways of thinking about these issues I'm forwarding. She writes: "I am an
indication of what occurs around me." & also, beautifully, "Both belief and
denial throw existence into question." She ends the piece with the following
paragraph: "A structure for writing that comes from anticipation relative to
an elsewhere, which to become a somewhere-- i.e., a writing --must borrow
from the things of this world in their partiality."
So, that's what I think right now. To respond to a few other points-- I
suspect that the idea of a schism in Wittgenstein's thought is based
partially in the events of his life, & I don't think that's an entirely bogus
point of view. In retrospect we can see the seeds of the late thought in the
early but there does seem an openness to a less proscriptive investigation in
the later work I think. It seems to me in the _Tractatus_ that he, like Pound
for so long, wanted to make it cohere.
Also you wrote:
> Look at how people make theories out of their
feelings, then concretize the theories and make the world fit >their
feelings.
It's become a bit of a cliche to say, but I'm not sure in the end we can
distinguish between emotion & intellect. That perhaps an oversimplification,
and if I were a scientist I might not say that. However, I was reading in
Alan Ryan's biography of Dewey
last night-- Dewey argued that "what scientists do when they try to
understand the world is not very different from what any of us do when we try
to decide what to do or think"-- this _feels_ right to me. (Dewey eschewed
both violent revolution & acceptance of the status quo in favor of the slogan
"Intelligent Action!" & although tagged "pragmatist" prefered the term
"experimentalism" -- i.e. find out what works and do that. Chomsky went to a
Deweyite school in Philadelphia til the age of 12.)
& finally (I didn't expect this to be such a long post, geeze, now I have to
keep myself from writing another lengthy response to a, to me, seriously
reductive comparison of Zorn & Cage by Kevin McNeilly which appears in the
Jan. _Postmodern Culture_-- don't nobody tell Bruce how much time I'm
spending on here, I'm supposed to be working on the Andrews issue of Aerial,
it's our little secret, please) Gabrielle wrote:
>We speak in wonderful metaphors (I'm getting pictures of ideas like
>puppies waiting for an owner to come home).
I'm exactly arguing that ideas don't have "owners," but we come home to them
whether we want to or not. Art's part of what makes us aware of when they're
around. & some may be puppies, some grown-up, some old, some dead dogs--
mutts, chihuahuas, pit bulls, lassies, Snoopys & Goofys (Baudrillard?) &, of
course, east german shepherds. ggrrrrawwlrrrruff! ruff! ruff!
--Rod
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 13:01:16 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ryan Knighton <knighton@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Exercise(s)
In-Reply-To: <v01530500ac372fea6f71@[192.0.2.1]> from "Herb Levy" at Jul 23,
95 10:54:27 am
Could we say that Mac Low's reconfiguration of the letters in a name )please
tell me you know which poem I'm thinking of , because the name escapes
me this morn( is a variation on a theme? An etude without etude?
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 13:03:30 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: bootless feet
In-Reply-To: <199507230401.VAA03032@isc.SJSU.EDU>
a snake
casually suns itself
on a relational data base
the virtual worm
turns
inside the actual
apple
any port in a storm
any fact in a fury
many modems phone home
smash the windows
tear the bulletin boards from their hosts
tear the hosts themselves from their net
who touches this
touches a screen
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 13:09:20 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Murphy's Law
In-Reply-To: <199507230401.VAA03032@isc.SJSU.EDU>
Despite the fact that she didn't call me while she was in California
(perhaps because I haven't gotten around to answering any letters for six
months) -- I want to mention to everybody Sheila Murphy's book _A Clove
of Gender_, recently released from Stride press. Contains "Literal
Ponds," "Informal Logic," and much else of value -- what the blurb
writers like to call "a substantial collection" --
& by way of early warning -- Harryette Mullen's _Muse & Drudge_ will be
out from Singon Horse very soon -- and it's the largest collection of her
work in over a decade -- good stuff throughout --
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 15:26:30 CST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Alexander <mcba@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: sing on sing on
Aldon Nielsen writes:
"& by way of early warning -- Harryette Mullen's _Muse & Drudge_ will be
out from Singon Horse very soon -- and it's the largest collection of her
work in over a decade -- good stuff throughout --"
Is "Singon Horse" the same as "Singing Horse," the press of Gil Ott in
Philadelphia? And Gil, are you here lurking anywhere? Love to you . . .
all best,
c
and ps -- Mac Low has done a lot with names, perhaps most famously a series
on the names of The Presidents of the United States -- marvelous work
charles alexander [===========^^============]
chax press [ <> ]
minnesota center for book arts [ maybe a <> pages ]
phone & fax: 612-721-6063 [ time <> letters ]
e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu [ upon <> frames ]
[ once <> motion ]
[ <> ]
[===========vv============]
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 15:57:13 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: bootless feet
aldon writes:
> a snake
> casually suns itself
> on a relational data base
>
> the virtual worm
> turns
> inside the actual
> apple
>
> any port in a storm
> any fact in a fury
> many modems phone home
>
> smash the windows
> tear the bulletin boards from their hosts
> tear the hosts themselves from their net
>
> who touches this
>
> touches a screen
to which i say amen, oh footless boot.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 10:22:48 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: more Meschonnic
It's good to know that Meschonnic on rhythm is as interesting as
suggested by Marjorie Perloff. There's a writer who is really engaged
with rhythm-values. His translation of the Book of Jonah into French in the
"original rhythm" and his comments on it are well worth reading. It
would be of some interest to Jewish listers. ( nrf Gallimard,
1981).
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 18:43:18 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: FUNKHOUSER CHRISTOPH <cf2785@CSC.ALBANY.EDU>
This is an Announcement for the imminent publication of
_The Little Magazine Volume 21_, the literary journal produced by graduate
students in the English Program at the University at Albany, produced as a
cd-rom for IBM / Windows. At present there is a functioning demo, soon to
be available.
Cost is $15 direct from publishers, about $10 more through
distributors (Fine Print and Bernard DeBoer). Send checks or cash to The
Little Magazine c/o SUNY Albany Dept. of English 1400 Washington Ave.
Albany, NY
12222
INGREDIENT STATEMENT:
multimeDia writing ImagerY sound
Will Alexander Lori Anderson
Don Archer Meg Arthurs
Susan Bee Charles Bernstein
Hakim Bey Roberto Bocci
David Bookbinder Charles Borkhuis
Susan Brenner Sean Bronzell
Harvey Brown Lee Ann Brown
Mark Cheney John Clarke
Jim Cohn Stephen Cope
Eric Curkendall Jacques Debrot
Ray DiPalma Phillip Djwa
Nancy Dunlop Gully Foyle
Lawrence Ferlinghetti Benjamin Friedlander
Chris Funkhouser James Garrison
Belle Gironda Loss Pequen~o Glazier
Robert Grenier Ben Henry
Joyce Hinnefeld Robert Hiles
Jim Hauser Geof Huth
Julie Ivey Lisa Jarnot
Pierre Joris Lisa Kaplan
Charlie Keil Bill Keith
Robert Kendall Richard Kostelanetz
Tuli Kupferberg Steve Laufer
Kurt Lohr Bill Luoma
Jackson Mac Low Nathaniel Mackey
Laura Marello Murphy McCullough
Marty McCutcheon Michael Melcher
H.D. Moe Trudy Morse
Murat Nemet-Nejat Nicole Peyrafitte
Geoffrey Polk Purkinge
Jed Rasula Piero Resta
Stefano Resta Douglas Rothschild
Situ@tion Critic@l! Stephan Said
Linda Smukler Chuck Stein
Chris Stroffolino Anne Tardos
Nathaniel Tarn Eugene Thacker
thelemonade Rodrigo Toscano
Chris Vitiello Ben Yarmolinsky
Katie Yates
We hope to hear from you,
Chris Funkhouser, editor
Belle Gironda, assistant editor
Ben Henry, technical editor
litmag@cnsunix.albany.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 17:16:40 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 21 Jul 1995 to 22 Jul 1995
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950723110113.750A-100000@elaine49.Stanford.EDU>
from "Marjorie Perloff" at Jul 23, 95 11:07:22 am
I do not hear how a "foot" implies a fixed metrical unit. Perhaps one
may imply such a thing when using the word, but how can the word do
so?
Surely, it is to historicize the usage of the word "foot" when one
goes to histoprical figures who support the idea of a free verse
foot; and in fact does it not historicize it when one first maintains
that there is such a thing, after years of regular walking.
For the majority of my life, and it has not been a short one, I have
understood the post-Hopkins foot to be what the oldtime
linguist-prosodists called a principal stress. I have no trouble
hearing the moments when ol' Doc Wms' feet come down on his attic
floor.
(Didnt we have some of this kind of conversation when jazz musicians
stopped counting bars?)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 17:19:14 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: furnished
In-Reply-To: <v01530500ac372096da0a@[192.0.2.1]> from "Herb Levy" at Jul 23,
95 10:54:14 am
I have a friend in Montreal who keeps his books sorted according to
height. It works out pretty well, when you come to Black Sparrow
Books or Grove Press stuff. But one will find Bukowski next to
Bromige, and that was something bromige complained about back when
Buk. was "The Outsider of the Year."
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 17:30:19 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Canadian foot vs. US foot?
George Bowering writes
>
>I do not hear how a "foot" implies a fixed metrical unit.
I agree completely unless (and it's a big unless) we are talking
strictly in historical terms of what the academy circa the early-mid
1950s meant by that phrase.
So here is where Marjorie's argument about you must historicize prosody
makes some real sense. It's the way I understood Josephine Miles
telling Melnick and I back in '69 or thereabouts that when she was
younger she and her peers "did not know how to hear Williams," could
not fathom what it was supposed to sound like on the page.
Me, I'm waiting for someone to reinvent Adelaide Crapsey's use of math
in all of this. No?
Ron Silliman
rsillima@ix.netcom.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 17:32:49 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 21 Jul 1995 to 22 Jul 1995
George,
>(Didnt we have some of this kind of conversation when jazz musicians
>stopped counting bars?)
>
Which explains all those bloated livers, right?
Ron
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 17:39:13 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: furnished
But one will find Bukowski next to
>Bromige, and that was something bromige complained about back when
>Buk. was "The Outsider of the Year."
>
But you won't find Mickey Rourke portraying Bromige on the silver
screen (nor Faye Dunaway Cecilia)....
[Actually, in the portrayal line, Tom Marshall was visiting this week
and saw a photo of my brother--who is a born-again christian living in
a "community" in Waco, TX--and thought it was George Bowering. Since my
brother and I have often been mistaken for one another--in spite of the
fact that he's 7 inches taller--this is a sobering thought]
Ron
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 17:51:38 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: furnished
In-Reply-To: <199507240019.RAA05406@fraser.sfu.ca> from "George Bowering" at
Jul 23, 95 05:19:14 pm
Oh hell, Bromige will be next to Bukowski if they are sorted
alphabetically, anywayu! David should change his name to Symmes.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 22:27:28 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: braman sandra <s-braman@UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: libraries
And then there was the librarian who thought that the books should be
arranged according to their individual identities as chess pieces, rather
than by Dewey Decimal or Library of Congress classification systems. He
was going in after hours and rearranging books for his employer library
for months until they discovered what the problem was....
Sandra Braman
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 23:41:12 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: POEMS Syndrome
I was browsing through the Rare Disorders database of my Family Doctor CD
Rom and came across the following entry--POEMS Syndrome. I know there are
many poets on this list. I hope you are aware of your own pathology!!
<grin>
My apologies to those who are really suffering from this terrible problem,
but a definition's a definition.
Dodie Bellamy
789: POEMS Syndrome
POEMS Syndrome is an acronym for Polyneuropathy (a disease of many nerves),
Organomegaly (the enlargement of an organ), Endocrinopathy (a functional
disorder of an endocrine gland), M protein (monoclonal immunoglobin, a type
of antibody), and Skin changes.
Symptoms
Each letter of POEMS Syndrome stands for the following symptoms:
Polyneuropathy is a disease of many nerves that causes tingling, numbness,
burning pain, deficiencies in perception and vibratory sensations usually
in the limbs. Organomegaly may affect any organ such as enlargement of the
spleen (splenomegaly) or enlargement of the liver and the spleen
(hepatosplenomegaly). Disease of the endocrine system may affect any
endocrine gland (a gland that secretes hormones directly into the blood
stream). Deficient secretion of the thyroid hormones (hypothyroidism) may
occur. Sexual functioning may be affected in POEMS Syndrome due to
dysfunction of hormone secreting glands.
Adrenal secretion of hormones may also be insufficient. Elevated levels of
M protein are usually found in the blood. Skin manifestations may include
increased pigmentation (hyperpigmentation) and thickened skin resembling
Scleroderma (see Related Disorders section of this report).
Swelling of the lymph nodes (adenopathy) may also occur.
An abnormal accumulation of fluid (edema) in the abdominal cavity
(ascites), in connective tissue (anasarca), or in cells and tissues may
also occur. Most of the patients have a malignant bone marrow disease
called Multiple Myeloma. Abnormal proteins are usually present in the
plasma. (For more information on this disorder, choose "Multiple Myeloma"
as your search term in the Rare Disease Database.)
Causes
The exact cause of POEMS Syndrome is not known. It has been suggested that
it may be an autoimmune disorder. Autoimmune disorders are caused when the
body's natural defenses (antibodies, lymphocytes, etc.), against invading
organisms suddenly begin to attack perfectly healthy tissue for unknown
reasons.
The abnormal proteins from the multiple myeloma tumor is another possible
cause for this multi-system disease.
Affected Population
POEMS Syndrome is a rare disorder affecting males and females in equal numbers.
Therapies: Standard
Treatment of POEMS Syndrome involves immunosuppressive drugs such as
melphalan and prednisone.
Therapies: Investigational
Plasmapheresis may be of benefit in some cases of POEMS Syndrome. This
procedure is a method for removing unwanted substances (toxins, metabolic
substances and plasma parts such as antibodies and abnormal proteins) from
the blood. Blood is removed from the patient and blood cells are separated
from plasma. The patient's plasma is then replaced with other human plasma
and the blood is retransfused into the patient. This therapy is still under
investigation to analyze side effects and effectiveness. More research is
needed before plasmapheresis can be recommended for use in all but the most
severe cases of POEMS Syndrome.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 09:26:38 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: the politics of dub
excuse me for interrupting out usual rarefied discussion, but I am getting
a lot of what I can only describe as protocol-like garbage preceding
every message from POETICS. I've written to the list-serve and got my
message, along with more garbage, spit back to me. am I the only one
experiencing this problem all of a sudden?
burt kimmelman
kimmelman@admin.njit.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 09:33:54 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: rebbe-l
Maria Damon,
I'm trying to forward the addresses to you which you were interested in,
but somehow my message is not getting through. can you back channel me?
burt
kimmelman@admin.njit.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 10:12:35 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "H. T. KIRBY-SMITH" <KIRBYS@FAGAN.UNCG.EDU>
Organization: University of NC at Greensboro
Subject: free verse foot
I never can remember whose lyrics these are and who I saw acting them
out on MTV, but no doubt other people do:
I can't dance--
I can't talk--
The only thing about me is the way that I walk.
to which I would add,
I got the rhythm--
I got the beat--
I'm the guy that walks with the free verse feet.
As far as I know Winters never did repent of having invented a free
verse foot when he was in his, and the century's, twenties. For
someone who rebuked Hart Crane for lack of repentance (a very well-
intentioned act) this is remarkable.
gee i hope i didn't step on anyone's feet
Tom Kirby-Smith
English Department
UNC-Greensboro
Greensboro NC 27412
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 09:01:48 PST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tom Taylor <TOMT@CH1.CH.PDX.EDU>
Organization: PSU Cramer Hall
Subject: Re: Open Mike Titles
Comments: To: POETICS%UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU@PSUORVM.CC.PDX.EDU
what an arrogant son of a bitch
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 12:19:05 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steven Howard Shoemaker <ss6r@FERMI.CLAS.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Subject: pleasures of rejection
A little something from the 'Net:
> >
> >
> > Every writer has received rejection slips; too many of
> > them for most. The Financial Times has quoted the "mother of all rejection
> > slips" translated from a Chinese economic journal. It goes like this:
> >
> > "We have read your manuscript with boundless delight. If we were to publish
> > your paper, it would be impossible for us to publish any work of lower
> > standards. And as it is unthinkable that in the next thousand years we
> > shall see its equal, we are, to our regret, compelled to return your divine
> > composition, and to beg you a thousand times to overlook our short sight and
> > timidity."
> >
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 13:05:20 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Alan Sondheim <sondheim@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: the politics of dub
In-Reply-To: <00993D30.0A93B6FE.84@admin.njit.edu>
You may have the full-header option turned on in your mail reader by
accident; if it's Pine, hit control-H. I'm getting normal headings; if I
need full-header, control-H toggles it on as well.
Alan
On Mon, 24 Jul 1995, Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT wrote:
> excuse me for interrupting out usual rarefied discussion, but I am getting
> a lot of what I can only describe as protocol-like garbage preceding
> every message from POETICS. I've written to the list-serve and got my
> message, along with more garbage, spit back to me. am I the only one
> experiencing this problem all of a sudden?
>
> burt kimmelman
> kimmelman@admin.njit.edu
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 11:36:15 PST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tom Taylor <TOMT@CH1.CH.PDX.EDU>
Organization: PSU Cramer Hall
Subject: Re: free verse foot
Phil Collins, I think.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 15:12:12 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steven Howard Shoemaker <ss6r@FERMI.CLAS.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Subject: infograms/utopian rhyme
Here's a top 10 of anagrams for "information superhighway" making its
way around the Net.
10.Enormous hiary pig with fan
9.Hey ignoramus--win profit? Ha!
8.Oh-oh, wiring snafu: empty air
7.When forming, utopia's hairy
6.A rough whimper of insanity
5.Oh, wormy infuriating phase
4.Inspire humanity, who go far
3.Waiting for any promise, huh?
2.Hi-ho! Yow! I'm surfing Arpanet!
1.New utopia? Horrifying sham
runners-up:
Fury, morphia, a wise nothing
Hey, what of inspiring amour
How pithy--a finer ignoramus
I swamp, horrify huge nation
I whisper nothing of my aura
Newt has a horrifying opium
This warning of my euphoria
Whining, amorphous--yet fair
Why shun origin of primate?
Wishing for a utopian rhyme
PS.
I'm not responsible for the ranking here. Several of the runners-up
are better than the top 10, but ain't that always the way?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 14:35:33 CST6CDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Hank Lazer <HLAZER@AS.UA.EDU>
Organization: The University of Alabama
Subject: Re: thanks
I'll be out of town (& without computer access) for the next week. I
wanted to thank the group for many stimulating directions of
conversation. As I was working on some poems last night, I ran
across this one, which I send out in the spirit of such thanks:
#146 (of a series called DAYS - this one 7/13/95)
for this the mystical
might have said
soul though others
would have it
otherwise which
to contend among
of yes being
numerous cacophony
of many
talking thinking
Hank Lazer
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 13:55:29 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Watts <cwatts@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: furnished
In-Reply-To: <199507240051.RAA07200@fraser.sfu.ca> from "George Bowering" at
Jul 23, 95 05:51:38 pm
Not if yr library's big enough, Jawj. Don't you have Bronk, Broughton,
Brownstein? Whut about Lennart Bruce? Lenny Bruce? Joseph Bruchac?
Bryher? Paul Buck? David Budbill? Mel Buffington? Bromige has plenty of
name buffering, if yr liberry's lawge enuf.
> > Oh hell, Bromige will be next to Bukowski if they are sorted
alphabetically, anywayu! David should change his name to Symmes. >
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 12:05:57 -40962758
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jim Rosenberg <jr@AMANUE.PGH.NET>
Subject: Re: Free Verse Foot
Marjorie Perloff:
> I think a big project right now should be to look more closely at period
> style today and determine why just about every poet on this net and other
> interesting, innovative poets don't write metered verse or even free
> verse, in a Williams-Creeley sense but write what's much closer to
> Skeltonics or doggerel on the one hand, prose on the other and the sense
> of "music" has dramatically shifted in, say, the last 20 years . That
> might be a more fruitful avenue of investigation (i.e., historicize) than
> to try to define "the foot" or "the measure" which, as Meschonnic shows,
> can never quite be done.
I would need to do an awful lot of scanning before reaching a conclusion like
the one above; I'm a bit puzzled by what should constitute *the data* for a
"historicization" concerning metrics if not the actual metrical structure of
the poems involved. I.e. it seems to me you must scan first *then* relate the
results of the data to what you know about history. If you decline to scan --
pronounce scanning as "not being fruitful" -- then what is the basis on which
judgments like the one above are made???
Normally I tend not to be evangelical on any subject, and I certainly don't
want to get into a food fight with anyone over "x is more fruitful than y",
but I find myself totally baffled by all this negativity over metrics. I
consider it a tool -- in the presence of many other tools -- no more no less.
It can be *very interesting* to discover how the metrical structure of a poem
works. The a-priori-template foot methodology *does* seem inappropriate for
a great deal of recent poetry; all the more reason to seek a new methodology.
Marjorie, when you say defining the measure "can never quite be done" I'm not
sure what you mean here. If you mean that one can not be guaranteed of being
able to produce *predictive formulas* for where the measure boundaries will
fall, I agree with that completely. But if you mean the *concept* of measure
can never be completely defined then I don't agree at all. The concept of
measure, as I've explained it, stands or falls on the ability of listeners to
*hear* those boundaries of low bonding strength. My belief is that once this
methodology is demonstrated, these boundaries are as easy for people to locate
as stress degrees.
I haven't read Meschonnic -- thanks for the reference -- so perhaps I ought to
defer judgment, but having a method for mapping metrical structure seems
useful to me.
George Bowering:
> For the majority of my life, and it has not been a short one, I have
> understood the post-Hopkins foot to be what the oldtime
> linguist-prosodists called a principal stress.
Yes! Where I would expand on this, George, is simply to map the *direction*
the unstressed syllables go in "attaching to" the stress -- i.e. to *which
stress* does a given unstressed syllable "belong".
Ron Silliman:
> So here is where Marjorie's argument about you must historicize prosody
> makes some real sense. It's the way I understood Josephine Miles
> telling Melnick and I back in '69 or thereabouts that when she was
> younger she and her peers "did not know how to hear Williams," could
> not fathom what it was supposed to sound like on the page.
I'm quite emphatic that metrics has to take place with respect to *a
recitation* -- in fact it works best if you have a tape recording you can
play over and over and even slow down if need be. If someone believes the
role of prosody is to allow the reader to extrapolate the sound based only
on the printed page then yes, the concepts I've been presenting will be very
unsatisfying. (Of course the arrival of multimedia makes it easier than
ever to include the sound with the text.)
[Incidentally, apologies if my responses seem a tad out of sync with some
others -- I've got my poetics list subscription set to digest, so I don't see
responses til sometime after midnight.]
--
Jim Rosenberg http://www.well.com/user/jer/
CIS: 71515,124
WELL: jer
Internet: jr@amanue.pgh.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 18:16:09 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: secrecy/confidetiality
charles b et al:
i have a question about the confidentiality of the list. in perusing the
opening materials i got when first subscribing, i saw for the first time that
people aren't supposed to know about this list. ( i hadn't read all the stuff
thru cuz all that kind of technotalk, which i assumed it was, how to do this,
how to do that, is a bit intimidating to me.) well, i've already told one
student about getting on the list --he's done so and made some remarkable
contributions. i want, moreover, to bring some stuff frm the list, like loss's
concrete-poem map of buffalo/gloucester, and the anagrams for info. superhiway,
to my poetry classes to show them how much and varied and fun activity there is
in the poetry world. is this verboten? is the confidentiality a legal matter
or one of personal preference, i.e. keeping the list small and intimate?
charles, maybe you --or anyone --can explain this to me before i do something
untoward.--maria d
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 17:10:10 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: pleasures of rejection
In-Reply-To: <199507241619.MAA94458@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU> from "Steven
Howard Shoemaker" at Jul 24, 95 12:19:05 pm
Rejection slips? Oh, I remember those. Wonder what they are like
now....
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 17:17:00 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: furnished
In-Reply-To: <199507240039.RAA14038@ix5.ix.netcom.com> from "Ron Silliman" at
Jul 23, 95 05:39:13 pm
I have never been in Waco. I have been , 30 years ago, in El Paso,
and that was scary enough. But if Ron Silliman's bro is 7 inches (or
as say up here, 12 cm) taller than Ron, and if the stories that tell
me that Ron is 6 foot 6, well, I aint that tall. I am only 15 inches
taller than Carol Berge.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 17:22:37 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Sarton & Spender
In-Reply-To: <199507191025.DAA29490@ix5.ix.netcom.com> from "Ron Silliman" at
Jul 19, 95 03:25:43 am
I finally saw an obit re Spender in the Vancouver _Sun_ but nothing
on Sarton. I eh never played basketball with Spender, but he was the
first famous poet I ever heard read, followed by Marianne Moore and
Kenneth Patchen. I was surprised to see that Spender pulled a
hankderchief out of his jacket sleeve. So THAT's where poets keep
them, I thought.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 17:27:08 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: who is Woody Allen?
In-Reply-To: <199507190946.CAA25919@ix5.ix.netcom.com> from "Ron Silliman" at
Jul 19, 95 02:46:28 am
What a coincidence, Ron!~ I have, as you know, just come back from
Petersburg (I am going to try to write the trip off as research in
Hejinian studies), where I saw a little anthology of 3 poets: (I am
bowing to variopus pressure on this net, to concede that pop singers
are poets and artists): Huey Lewis, Dewey Redman, and Louis Zukofsky.
It was published by the Ducklings Press, Leningrad.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 21:27:59 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Loss Glazier <lolpoet@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Re: secrets of the list
In-Reply-To: <301429b74e37002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> from "maria damon" at Jul 24,
95 06:16:09 pm
Maria,
> charles b et al: i have a question about the confidentiality of the
> list. in perusing the opening materials i got when first
> subscribing, i saw for the first time that people aren't supposed to
> know about this list.
I'm not speaking for Charles but I can give you my sense of it; at
least you will have one person's thoughts.
I don't think there's a rose hanging upside down over the mainframe
that houses the list. (Though that's not a bad image...) The intention
is not to have the list listed in all the lists of lists that get
published, thereby causing a lot of casual foot traffic. This also
includes not posting the existence of the list to other lists, where
people who might subscribe to lists just because they like to
subscribe to lists might subscribe to this list. It would be better I
would think for the number of subscribers not to get too large only
because at a certain point there can't be a sense of who's there if
it's among thousands.
> well, i've already told one student about getting on the list --he's
> done so and made some remarkable contributions.
Word of mouth has always been fine, I believe. (And students would
count, I would say, unless it was an assignment say, for each student
to subscribe and be required to make make twenty postings ...)
> i want, moreover, to bring some stuff frm the list, like loss's
> concrete-poem map of buffalo/gloucester, and the anagrams for
> info. superhiway, to my poetry classes to show them how much and
> varied and fun activity there is in the poetry world. is this
> verboten? is the confidentiality a legal matter or one of personal
> preference, i.e. keeping the list small and intimate? charles,
> maybe you --or anyone --can explain this to me before i do something
> untoward.
I'd use the same instincts you would if you were at a reading and some
photocopies were handed out. It's thoughtful to ask the posting person
before recirculating, I would think (and one is usually honored by
such a request!) though you wouldn't technically break any laws by not
doing so. I think such thoughtfulness more than any sense of rules
will do the most to maintain the level of trust necessary to such a
list.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 21:48:04 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Marjorie Perloff <perloff@LELAND.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 23 Jul 1995 to 24 Jul 1995
In-Reply-To: <199507250404.VAA06961@leland.Stanford.EDU>
For Jim Rosenberg, Tom Kirby, George Bowering et al:
I certainly didn't mean to give the impression that I don't care about
metrics. ON THE CONTRARY! I'm the person whose first book
(dissertation) was about Yeats's use of rhyme and I've written quite a
lot about specific metrics over the years.
All I meant was that the word "foot" is applicable only in cases of
syllable-stress prosody (i.e. meter), where we count feet. In the case
of alliterative verse, the basis is the number of stresses per line,
never mind how many unstressed syllables in between. In such a case (for
instance Hopkins, a good deal of Auden)what does a "foot" mean? See, on
this point, the Encyclopedia of Poetry and Poetics--various relevant
articles.
My point about free verse is different. Strictly speaking, free verse
means no counting, a variable line, and the line as unit rather than the
foot, or number of stresses or number of syllables per line, and so on.
But in practice, of course a poet like Williams kept the variability
limited: most of his earlier poems use between 3 and 5 stresses per line
and the syllable count is not all that variable either. Now: if Williams
writes "free verse," what does John Ashbery write? His long lines are
purposely prosaic with very little rhythmic repetition. To speak of free
verse in this case and many others seems misleading and I think we need
to be more specific. But of course, as Jim says, you always start with
actual analysis of stress, syllable count, pitch, juncture, etc.
Marjorie Perloff
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 02:03:43 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@ALBNYVMS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 23 Jul 1995 to 24 Jul 1995
The search for a "new" term (or conceptualization) for the kind
of verse someone "like Ashbery" writes is intriguing in that to
dismiss him as merely "discursive" (or to valorize him for same
reason) seems beyond the point...Yet, reading backwards from
the contemporaries, many modernists (Stein, Stevens, Riding)
seem to be equally removed from "song"--either in that they have
a plainness in their diction or a hypnotic rhythm "akin to the
saxophone"(as Eliot said of Stein)--Of course, "The Four Quartets"
and some Moore (who despite her rhyme was tonally) also seem to
be important "precursors" of a certain I-don't-want-to-say-discursive
tone. But perhaps Moore would be disqualified because of the rhyme
(as would Stevens because of the iambs?) as an alternative to
"free verse"--Yet, when one reads Ashbery or Perelman or Harryman
(scratch harryman for now--it makes it too complicated), one is
definitely not reading most of O'Hara or Mayer or Armantrout?
Would Marjorie, or anyone else say that the latter (O,M,A,)
would fit under the rules of "free verse" as presumably so would
Spicer and Weiners? And if this is this case, is this distinction
argued on any grounds other than the "lyric" vs. "Discursive"
debate? Chris Stroffolino
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 10:02:03 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 23 Jul 1995 to 24 Jul 1995
c stroffolino writes:
> a hypnotic rhythm "akin to the
> saxophone"(as Eliot said of Stein)--
chris--do you know how eliot intended this ? was it pejorative, admiring,
neutral or all or none of the above?--md
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 08:31:08 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM>
Subject: Re: who is Woody Allen?
>What a coincidence, Ron!~ I have, as you know, just come back from
>Petersburg (I am going to try to write the trip off as research in
>Hejinian studies), where I saw a little anthology of 3 poets: (I am
>bowing to variopus pressure on this net, to concede that pop singers
>are poets and artists): Huey Lewis, Dewey Redman, and Louis Zukofsky.
>It was published by the Ducklings Press, Leningrad.
Dewey Redman, eh?
Who's pressuring you to consider jazz musicians as poets, George?
Enquiring minds want to know.
Herb Levy
herb@eskimo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 07:27:00 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Don Cheney <Don_Cheney@UCSDLIBRARY.UCSD.EDU>
Subject: Rock Me Amadeus
sorry for the late post on the subject, but concerning the
idea that rock musicians take their work seriously: i say
that THE MEAT PUPPETS take their work seriously and give as
evidence meat puppet Cris Kirkwood's description of the
band's music (in Rolling Stone 5/19/94):
"It's like a braunschweiger bust of Millard Fillmore set
amid a field of frozen feces."
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 08:47:48 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 23 Jul 1995 to 24 Jul 1995
>c stroffolino writes:
>> a hypnotic rhythm "akin to the
>> saxophone"(as Eliot said of Stein)--
>
>chris--do you know how eliot intended this ? was it pejorative, admiring,
>neutral or all or none of the above?--md
Eliot's quote must be what made George Bowering think of Dewey Redman.
Just more evidence of Ol' Possum's prescience.
Herb Levy
herb@eskimo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 14:25:45 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: Re: who is George Bowering?
In-Reply-To: <v01530500ac3a38b15720@[192.0.2.1]> from "Herb Levy" at Jul 25,
95 08:31:08 am
There's a rumour on the street in Toronto that "George Bowering" is
actually a nom-de-guerre of some ad guy for Disney. Anybody else hear
anything?
Mike
mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 15:09:35 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@ALBNYVMS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 23 Jul 1995 to 24 Jul 1995
maria---eliot meant it negatively--but I got it from Riding's essay
on "stein and the new barbarsm"---SHE meant it positively-- but the
recognition of course on Eliot's part (Stein=Saxophone) makes me
wonder whether "eliot was of the devil
's part without knowing it"--I mean devil positively, btw....chris
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 15:17:38 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: the politics of dub
Alan,
What do you mean "if it's Pine"? Anyway, I'll try control H--but when should
I try it?
(Sorry everyone for this unabashed display of private email problem with the
List).
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 15:22:08 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steven Howard Shoemaker <ss6r@FERMI.CLAS.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Subject: renga anyone?
In-Reply-To: <199507250404.AAA91814@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU> from "Automatic
digest processor" at Jul 25, 95 00:02:58 am
Reading Araki Yasusada (an Hiroshima poet influenced by Spicer!) in
First Intensity #5, it occurred to me that the renga form (in which a
group of collaborators takes turns writing lines) could be nicely
adapted to cyberspace--and where better than this list?
So, in the hope that someone will take me up on the idea, here's a line:
In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 15:36:26 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Free Verse Foot
Jim (et al.),
I see Marjorie's point. Anyway, let me be pollyannish and say that we don't have
the tools to quantify modern and postmodern verse satisfactorily yet.
now let me be a wet blanket and say that, thanks to grad school and beyond
(the perils of an education where I saw/read enough poetry from various
times and places to see that there is no definition of poetry which can
be applied universally), poetry has been "demystified" for me; there is no
such thing as poetry (though I'll play the scan game anytime because it is
so much fun but inconclusive). There is only the poetic. And there is history,
a pleasure and maybe of some use to scholar and poet alike.
Scanning only makes sense when it is bracketed historically--which is not to say
(again) that scanning isn't worth one's while--that is, if one wishes to talk
about poetry.
Burt
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 09:14:24 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: Re: libraries
I recall that Univ of Edinburgh library, when newly installed in a
modern building with very large floor areas, had Michelangelo
Architecture, Michelangelo Sculpture, Michelangelo Painting several
hundred yards apart under the auspices of Dewey. Also under Dewey,
Bernini's Architecture was under Baroque and Christopher Wren's
several blocks away under Renaissance. The librarian responsible at
that time was simply not interested in discussing the arbitrariness
of Dewey's style categories, in which Baroque was located in southern
Europe while Northern Europe was undergoing a belated Renaissance.
Effectiveness of any system depends on the discretion and flexibility of
the user.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 15:01:07 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: who is George Bowering?
In-Reply-To: <199507251825.OAA19622@blues.epas.utoronto.ca> from "Michael
Boughn" at Jul 25, 95 02:25:45 pm
I have heard rumours that there is some guy, a novelist or something,
going around using the name "George Bowering." This man is an
imposter.
I am the real GB, and I am a simple first baseman and historian.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 15:05:33 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: who is Woody Allen?
In-Reply-To: <v01530500ac3a38b15720@[192.0.2.1]> from "Herb Levy" at Jul 25,
95 08:31:08 am
Hey, Herb, some of my favourite poets are jazz musicians.
Like Cecil Taylor and Woody Allen.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 15:13:11 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 23 Jul 1995 to 24 Jul 1995
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950724214035.22806A-100000@elaine10.Stanford.EDU>
from "Marjorie Perloff" at Jul 24, 95 09:48:04 pm
I think that I am getting something od what Marjorie is feeling when
she introduces the difference between Williams and Ashbery. (Or how
about the crossbred _Ko_ as in discursive endrime?). Certainly in
Ashbery I do not hear much in the way of feet walking (though I think
I still do in O'Hara's Lunch Poems). But I still dont hear feet as
necessarily regular. Maybe this is because I grew up in the
mountains, where you cannot march.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 10:36:15 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Wystan Curnow <w.curnow@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 23 Jul 1995 to 24 Jul 1995
Comments: To: damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU
Hi Maria,
I wait with you for cris's reply.I thought maybe :
saxophone=jazz. Which would make some sense of the *hypnotic*.
Is Eliot *primitivizing* Stein?
Wystan
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 19:11:35 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Kellogg <kellogg@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Free Verse Foot
In-Reply-To: <00993E2C.DE0ADE3E.100@admin.njit.edu>
This discussion has been interesting. I tend to agree with Burt that we
don't know enough yet to say conclusive things about current meter. Even
more: to talk about a "current" conception of measure as being
particularly current tends to bracket others as "less current" and thus to
install a kind of a priori evaluative axis which I don't think is
particularly helpful. There are lots of measures at work today; that fact
alone makes "periodization" in the sense that (I think -- correct me if
I'm wrong, Marjorie) Marjorie implies hopelessly reductive, since all such
measures are by definition current.
Cheers,
David
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Kellogg The moment is at hand.
University Writing Program Take one another
Duke University and eat.
Durham, NC 27708
kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 16:39:41 -1000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Susan Schultz <sschultz@HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Rejected posting to POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (fwd)
Here's a belated posting; like Gabrielle, I was exiled from the list for
a time.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 18:29:47 -1000
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To: sschultz@HAWAII.EDU
Subject: Rejected posting to POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU
You are not authorized to send mail to the POETICS list from your
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generates slightly different addresses, but LISTSERV has no way to associate
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any question regarding the policy of the POETICS list, please contact the list
owners: POETICS-Request@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU.
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From: Susan Schultz <sschultz@hawaii.edu>
To: poetics@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU
Subject: innocence and language (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 23:03:29 -1000 (HST)
From: Susan Schultz <sschultz@uhunix3.its.Hawaii.Edu>
To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
Cc: Recipients of POETICS digests <POETICS@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
Subject: innocence and language
Marisa & Maria--on the "ghost" in the machine, Joan Retallack has a
fascinating essay, ":RE:THINKING:LITERARY:FEMINISM:(three essays onto
shaky grounds)," where she suggests that the ghost in the machine of
feminist writing is in fact masculine. Experimental writing may be
feminist, she argues, but much experimental writing is done by men
(Russian futurists, British and American moderns, and so on). "It may
seem like a betrayal of the few courageous women who are our clear
'feminist' ancestors . . . to acknowledge a 'feminine' tradition
dominated by males. But it is far worse to deny the presence of the
feminine in language (as Ostriker and others do) by missing the fact that
the feminine has never been exclusively 'embodied' in female writers."
The essay can be found in FEMINIST MEASURES, edited by Lynn Keller and
Cristanne Miller (U of Michigan Press). There are problems with the
argument--why still call this move "feminine"?--but it is a marvelous
antidote to Ostriker et al's essentialism. And it gives access to
Retallack's own poetry (her new book IS good, Rod), which refuses to take
easy gender-based "sides."
Susan
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 15:32:04 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Wystan Curnow <w.curnow@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland
Subject: Jerome McGann
Dear Group.
I need an e-mail address for Jerome McGann. Can anyone
oblige?
Wystan
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 00:17:04 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rod Smith <AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: renga anyone?
But at what point did she say to herself "I wanna be a wonk"
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 22:31:13 CST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Alexander <mcba@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: renga anyone?
Thanks, Steven Howard Shoemaker. You have begun the renga with a line as a
sentence. Is this usual? Is it variable? Do feet fly?
In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
charles alexander [===========^^============]
chax press [ <> ]
minnesota center for book arts [ maybe a <> pages ]
phone & fax: 612-721-6063 [ time <> letters ]
e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu [ upon <> frames ]
[ once <> motion ]
[ <> ]
[===========vv============]
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 23:11:06 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 23 Jul 1995 to 24 Jul 1995
chris s writes:
> maria---eliot meant it negatively--but I got it from Riding's essay
> on "stein and the new barbarsm"---SHE meant it positively-- but the
> recognition of course on Eliot's part (Stein=Saxophone) makes me
> wonder whether "eliot was of the devil
> 's part without knowing it"--I mean devil positively, btw....chris
thanks chris; riding on stein sounds like a trip. i'll save this tidbit for
later use. i'm spozed to write something on stein in the next year... and this
kinda fits in, or --i like it so much tht i'll make it fit in.--md
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 00:47:10 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rod Smith <AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: renga anywhat?
I think the renga on the list idea a good one. I posted a sentence assuming
that we were following "the linked verse" of responding with a line that is
as far away as possible from the preceding. If I'm wrong about this scratch
my wonk bit.
I feel an obligation to point out that it's not clear that Haraki
Yasusada actually exists. I published a group discussion in _Aerial 6/7_
called "Renga & the New Sentence" by what purported to be three Japanese
poet/critics. I suspected at the time that it might be a fake, but chose to
publish it anyway, as it was simply too good to turn down. I've since had a
conversation that *seems* to confirm my suspicions (No, I can't say more than
that). Tho it's still unclear. I've talked to at least one person that's
pretty unhappy abt it. Implication being that an American posing as a
Japanese from Hiroshima should be questioned. They're probably right about
that. What caused me to question the "authenticity" of that text was that it
was a little too good & the speakers were a little too knowledgeable to be, I
thought, never seen or heard from by anybody on the scene. I mean this poetry
gang of ours-- it's NOT that big. Does anybody out there know Tosa Motokiyu,
&/or Ojiu Norinaga, &/or Okura Kyojin? I mean _besides_ Nils Ya.
--Rod
Steven Howard Shoemaker wrote:
>Reading Araki Yasusada (an Hiroshima poet influenced by >Spicer!) in
First Intensity #5, it occurred to me that the renga form (in
>which a
group of collaborators takes turns writing lines) could be >nicely
adapted to cyberspace--and where better than this list?
>So, in the hope that someone will take me up on the idea, here's a line:
>In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 23:17:06 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: renga anyone?
In message <199507251922.PAA67736@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU> UB Poetics
discussion group writes:
> Reading Araki Yasusada (an Hiroshima poet influenced by Spicer!) in
> First Intensity #5, it occurred to me that the renga form (in which a
> group of collaborators takes turns writing lines) could be nicely
> adapted to cyberspace--and where better than this list?
> So, in the hope that someone will take me up on the idea, here's a line:
>
>
>
>
> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
In the crooks were nannies and in the nannies began responsibilities.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 23:54:01 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jonathan Brannen <jbrannen@INFOLINK.MORRIS.MN.US>
Subject: Re: Free Verse Foot
Burt,
Poetry has been "demystified" for you so it no longer exists?
Well, I never thought I'd find myself quoting Dylan Thomas but:
"The tricks are easy to learn, it's the art that's difficult."
(or words to that effect).
Best,
Jonathan
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 02:11:25 -40962758
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jim Rosenberg <jr@AMANUE.PGH.NET>
Subject: Re: Free Verse Foot
Marjorie Perloff:
> I certainly didn't mean to give the impression that I don't care about
> metrics. ON THE CONTRARY!
Good, I had a feeling I was misunderstanding something.
> All I meant was that the word "foot" is applicable only in cases of
> syllable-stress prosody (i.e. meter), where we count feet.
Agreed. Your aversion to the word foot in a "free verse" context is based
on counting, mine on the a priori character of the analysis, but we come out
the same place.
> My point about free verse is different. Strictly speaking, free verse
> means no counting, a variable line,
Agreed again.
> and the line as unit rather than the
> foot, or number of stresses or number of syllables per line, and so on.
Whoa. I *don't* agree here. Surely everyone knows the syllables are there,
and we all talk a lot about line-breaks, and without question there has been
a lack of attention to an intermediate level *structural* metrical unit between
the line and the syllable. In my opinion this is simply a gap in our
methodology rather than the inappropriateness of such a unit.
To return to Creeley for a moment: The non-standard measure boundaries at
the end of the line are *very* prominent; everyone hears them. The *standard*
measure boundaries in the middle of the two-measure lines are much more
subtle. They (together with the fact that some lines are indeed one measure)
are what gives Creeley's rhythm its subtlety, its fluidity, its very life
it seems to me. If you only look for syllables and stresses and line breaks
you miss this completely.
It is exactly to give meaningful identity to a metrical unit intermediate
between the syllable and the line that I've been talking about measure
boundaries, bonding strength, etc. In my opinion, we haven't had much to say
about an intermediate level metrical unit not because there isn't anything
useful to say but because we *haven't been looking* for these units. (And
why? Because 'foot' has so much baggage!) When you do go looking for them
they are right there, in plain earshot, and pretty interesting.
> Now: if Williams writes "free verse," what does John Ashbery write?
I've never tried to scan Ashbery, but would love to try. Is there a tape of
a reading of _Flowchart_ available somewhere? Until actually scanning Ashbery
I would not want to predict the outcome; frankly the Creeley results surprised
the hell out of me.
> you always start with
> actual analysis of stress, syllable count, pitch, juncture, etc.
^^^^^^^^
Now I'm confused again: perhaps we really *don't* disagree on an intermediate
level unit of metrics???
--
Jim Rosenberg http://www.well.com/user/jer/
CIS: 71515,124
WELL: jer
Internet: jr@amanue.pgh.net
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 01:45:07 -40962758
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jim Rosenberg <jr@AMANUE.PGH.NET>
Subject: Re: secrets of the list
[Since the subject came up of proper etiquette for telling others about this
list ...]
<OPINION>
I am living in what I would call an overt state of corruption regarding
whether this list should be closed or open. I say this because I believe it
should be open, and yet I value the relatively high signal to noise ratio,
which will, certainly, deteriorate if the list is completely open. Actually,
to be a bit more accurate: it is technically incorrect to say the list is
closed. The list is fully open in the sense that anyone who knows the
correct E-mail address is auto-subscribed simply by sending a message. It is
also technically incorrect that the list is "secret". The fact that it is
openly archived on EPC -- along with enough address stamp information to give
anyone who can put two and two together the information for how to subscribe
-- means that it the list is, in an obscure way, being advertised. [That
happens to be the way *I* found my way onto the list; *TWO* major members of
the list (who will remain nameless) "invited" me to subscribe but didn't tell
me how!]
There is something mildly offensive about archiving the list in a publicly
available place (EPC) and yet maintaining that the list is closed. We seem
to be saying *OUR* words are worth archiving, dear net surfer, but *YOURS*
are not, we won't tell you how to get on this list. This is pretty much
contrary to the general spirit of the net, it seems to me.
One point that I think should be made is that there is *no* "serious"
newsgroup (that I'm aware of, at any rate) on USENET for discussing poetry.
Where are the people who are not on this list who want to have a serious
discussion of the poetries we talk about here supposed to go??
A private list should be *PRIVATE*. That means (1) subscription only by
permission of a moderator; (2) archiving only by ftp under a non-anonymous
account with a password; etc.
One possibility would be to keep this list the way it is but start a parallel
fully public list. It would try to enforce signal to noise ratio by sheer
netiquette, the way most of the net does it. (Signal to noise ratio is
*excellent* on most of the USENET technical groups; ht_lit, which has some
parallel concerns to this list, is fully open and has a fine signal to noise
ratio.) Hopefully, the open list would suck the life out of the pseudo-
closed list; if instead the open list degenerates into a mess of mindless
posturing then there is still the "closed" list to fall back on.
It does trouble me that there is no open list/newsgroup for discussions of
the kind we have here. To put it as bluntly as possible: Are we snobs, or
what?
</OPINION>
--
Jim Rosenberg http://www.well.com/user/jer/
CIS: 71515,124
WELL: jer
Internet: jr@amanue.pgh.net
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 02:07:24 +0000
Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <jzitt@bga.com>
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@HUMANSYSTEMS.COM>
Organization: HumanSystems
Subject: Renga Round the Poesy
I don't know if this is a common thing in renga wrangling, but I'm
interested in following up on what has started with the multiple
second lines being offered -- perhaps we could set up an ongoing
hypertext, branching off as the writing does so.
(Pardon if this is a beentheredonethat -- I am but a poor wagon
driver and unstudied in the ways of these lands B-]. )
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/ Online Representative, Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 02:38:19 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Yasusada = Ern Malley
Rod writes:
"I feel an obligation to point out that it's not clear that Haraki
Yasusada actually exists. I published a group discussion in _Aerial
6/7_ >called "Renga & the New Sentence" by what purported to be three
Japanese poet/critics. I suspected at the time that it might be a fake,
but chose to publish it anyway, as it was simply too good to turn down.
I've since had a conversation that *seems* to confirm my suspicions
(No, I can't say more than that). Tho it's still unclear."
Both Avery Burns and Eric Selland swear that Yasusada is a fictive
project, as are his translators. Selland, a translator of Japanese by
trade who's spent years over there and knows the poetry scene
intimately, should be in a position to know.
Still, the work in Conjunctions is very good. I posted an enthusiastic
comment to this list when it first came out that I believe Luigi-Bob
may have reprinted in Taproot.
Ron
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 02:57:58 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: secrets of the list
Re Jim Rosenberg's
><OPINION>
>
>I am living in what I would call an overt state of corruption
regarding whether this list should be closed or open. I say this
because I believe it should be open, and yet I value the relatively
high signal to noise ratio, which will, certainly, deteriorate if the
list is completely open. Actually, to be a bit more accurate: it is
technically incorrect to say the list is closed. The list is fully
open in the sense that anyone who knows the correct E-mail address is
auto-subscribed simply by sending a message. It is also technically
incorrect that the list is "secret". The fact that it is openly
archived on EPC -- along with enough address stamp information to give
anyone who can put two and two together the information for how to
subscribe -- means that it the list is, in an obscure way, being
advertised. [That happens to be the way *I* found my way onto the
list; *TWO* major members of the list (who will remain nameless)
"invited" me to subscribe but didn't tell me how!]
>
>There is something mildly offensive about archiving the list in a
publicly available place (EPC) and yet maintaining that the list is
closed. We seem to be saying *OUR* words are worth archiving, dear net
surfer, but *YOURS* are not, we won't tell you how to get on this list.
This is pretty much contrary to the general spirit of the net, it
seems to me.
>
I don't see anything "mild" in its offensiveness, actually. Anyone who
has checked out the Usenet groups on poetry will see how closely they
map to a vision of literature proposed, say, by Writers Digest. And I
think there's a "fear" here that there would be "contamination" if this
list were suddenly to show up in all the Listserv directories. Also,
it's not strictly true that this is the only place to seriously discuss
poetry. A somewhat more moderated group, CAP-L, maps fairly closely to
the New Formalist set of concerns (or did until it got it's address
posted here and I, Bill Luoma, Chris Stroffalino (sorry about that
spelling) and others "polluted" it).
My own sense is more openness is good, but how to go about that. I, for
one, would have no compunction about listing this list on a very
compatible discussion group (and I would include CAP-L and Joseph
Zitt's Silence (Cage) discussion groups as two examples). Frankly,
anybody who discovers the EPC and is intrigued by the Poetics archives
ought to be told how to sign up (in fact, that should probably be a
part of the archives, no?).
Ron
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 03:02:57 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Renga 3
>In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books
That cooks would look to in the hope of
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 03:04:59 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Renga 1
>
>In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
>And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 03:07:36 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: renga anyone?
In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
In the crooks were nannies and in the nannies began responsibilities.
And desire. To which, Mr Stanley, to wit, "Mistah Bowering, he...
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 06:52:01 CST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Alexander <mcba@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: secrets of the list
About the list, open or closed, are we snobs?
I never thought the list was closed, never was told that. What I was told
was that the address should not be published on other lists, and
particularly not on any directories of lists. However, there was
encouragement to tell people about it and tell them how to subscribe if
they so desired. Growth was expected, with some sense as well that the list
would work best if there was at least a general sense of knowing the people
on the list (not necessarily knowing them before they participated, but
getting to know them on the list as well). My assumption was that
eventually the list, no matter what participants did, would grow to a size
that wasn't so cozy. But it seems people drop off the list and drop on.
Some drop back off. Some drop back on. So it seems there remains (I've been
here a year or more now) a sense of knowing who one is talking with.
Admittedly the ability to reach the archived list at EPC (which I first
found while browsing the web, although I did know about EPC before that)
complicates things for me. It's so easy to find on the web (at least if one
has Yahoo to point to art, then literature, then poetry) that it makes the
list seem very open indeed.
Still, I don't know that a change is needed in how it is managed. I don't
know if we're snobs or not. If we think of it as closed, then, yes, we're
snobs. I do agree with Jim Rosenberg that there is a need for a "fully
open" place to discuss poetry & poetics. However, if there were such a
place, would I find the discussion more or less enlivening than I find it
here? I don't know; I suppose I'd try it and find out. Here I've heard
about foot, soul, and jelly roll, buffalo wings, cassette royalties, and a
little more.
charles alexander [===========^^============]
chax press [ <> ]
minnesota center for book arts [ maybe a <> pages ]
phone & fax: 612-721-6063 [ time <> letters ]
e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu [ upon <> frames ]
[ once <> motion ]
[ <> ]
[===========vv============]
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 07:01:52 CST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Alexander <mcba@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: renga anyone?
On Wed, 26 Jul 1995 03:07:36 -0700,
Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM> wrote:
In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
In the crooks were nannies and in the nannies began responsibilities.
And desire. To which, Mr Stanley, to wit, "Mistah Bowering, he...
suffers himself too much, perhaps a small tango would permit
charles alexander [===========^^============]
chax press [ <> ]
minnesota center for book arts [ maybe a <> pages ]
phone & fax: 612-721-6063 [ time <> letters ]
e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu [ upon <> frames ]
[ once <> motion ]
[ <> ]
[===========vv============]
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 08:37:33 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Lisa Samuels <lsr3h@DARWIN.CLAS.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Jerome McGann
In-Reply-To: <MAILQUEUE-101.950726153227.384@engnov1.auckland.ac.nz> from
"Wystan Curnow" at Jul 26, 95 03:32:04 pm
dear wystan curnow:
jjm2f@virginia.edu
will get you there. the system routes it for you.
lisa samuels
>
> Dear Group.
> I need an e-mail address for Jerome McGann. Can anyone
> oblige?
> Wystan
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 09:43:18 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kali Tal <kalital@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU>
Subject: CFP--1995 Sixties Conference, Deadline extended
Comments: To: "Albert, Stew" <stewa@aol.com>,
"Applebome, Peter" <peappl@nytimes.com>,
"Arthur R. McGee" <amcgee@netcom.com>,
"Boose, Lynda" <Lynda.Boose@dartmouth.edu>,
"Gotera, Vince" <goterav@axe.humboldt.edu>,
"Heller, Scott" <SCHELLER@delphi.com>,
"Kelsey, Ann" <kelsey@pilot.njin.net>,
"King, William" <kingwm@spot.colorado.edu>,
"Levine Thal, Jan" <thal@macc.wisc.edu>,
SIXTIES-L <sixties-l@jefferson.village.virginia.edu>,
WMST-L <wmst-l@umdd.umd.edu>
We've extended the deadline for the Conference to August 15. Please forward this
call for papers to any appropriate list or person.
!!!CALL FOR PAPERS!!!
1995 SIXTIES GENERATIONS CONFERENCE
An Interdisciplinary Conference of
Scholars, Activists and Artists
October 5-8, 1995
Western Connecticut State University
Danbury, Connecticut
Proposals due: August 15, 1995
I invite you to join us for the third annual Sixties Generations Conference:
From Montgomery to Viet Nam on October 5-8, 1995. Last year over 400 scholars
and students joined us at Western Connecticut State University to hear more
than one hundred presentations by academics, activists, and artists. The
Sixties Generations Conference is a showcase for intelligent and lively academic
work in a variety of disciplines and studies fields, but what makes it special
is the interdisciplinary emphasis and the collegial atmosphere. We've
demonstrated that mixing academics with artists, crossing disciplines, and
spanning generations fosters a creative and collaborative excitement that can't
be matched. Our evaluation forms showed that over 95% of those who attended
last year will be back in 1995. Here are some comments we received:
"The Conference provided a rare opportunity to not only learn from
scholars and artists but to engage in fruitful discussion that
multiplied the impact of the meetings many times over. The organization
and administration of the conference was superb and the facilities
excellent. What was most gratifying was how so many of the scholars and
artists in their lives and work sought to cut across traditional
boundaries of gender, academic disciplines, and even of age: there was a
lively mix of younger students and scholars and well-established
teachers and professors. I look forward to next year's meeting knowing
it will be a highlight of my academic annual activities."
"The conference was an outstanding mix of scholars, students, artists,
participants, participant-observers, etc. One could sample informal
networking and heavy-duty scholarship. The interactions of panels and
audience was lively and informative. Keep it up!"
"I particularly appreciated the interdisciplinary nature of the
conference. If not unique, it is extremely rare. Vietnam veterans,
scholars, antiwar activists, artists, musicians, and writers all
dealing with the same subject--in a better society, Vietnam
Generation would be recognized and nurtured as a national resource.
We remain committed to interdisciplinary work and to seeking diverse
presentations. We particularly encourage the participation of those
traditionally under-represented in academic discourse, and we do not shrink
from controversial topics. In addition to soliciting work from traditional
disciplines, we enthusiastically invite presentations in African American
Studies, Chicano Studies, Women's Studies, Native American Studies and other
studies programs.
We know that most of the best work at conferences is done between sessions, when
people get the chance to talk, to share stories, to set up collaborations. So
we do our best to make sure that there is plenty of time for these activities-we
arrange for meals to be available at the conference site, set up a lounge for
refreshments, and keep coffee and tea available all day long. We also arrange
evening events--our Sixties style coffeehouse reading was so successful last
year that we will do it again, breaking it up into two nights of poetry,
fiction, multimedia and performance art.
As usual, we are doing all this work on a shoestring. Viet Nam Generation,
Inc., is a literary and educational nonprofit which cannot yet afford to salary
its staff. This conference has been supported entirely by volunteer efforts,
the registration fees of participants and by our book sales. The facilities are
generously provided by Western Connecticut State University. We know that many
conferences can afford to waive fees for those presenting papers, but we cannot.
We do waive fees for those who would not otherwise be able to participate, and
we do our best to find alternative housing for those who cannot afford hotel
rooms. We're committed to the notion that no one should be turned away for lack
of funds. To meet this goal we rely on support from those who do have
funds-faculty members or others with full-time positions and decent incomes. In
fact, we encourage you, if you can afford it, to pay an extra registration fee
to cover someone else with fewer resources.
We also encourage you to subscribe to our journal, Viet Nam Generation, a forum
for interdisciplinary written work on the war. We publish many of the Sixties
Generations Conference papers in the pages of the journal, which is now
entering its seventh volume year. Your support enables us to continue our
efforts.
Part of our philosophy is that we do not rank those who attend the Sixties
Generations Conference-there are no "stars" here; we don't even put your
institution on your name tag. We have no "keynote" speakers or "special"
sessions. Those who attend don't do it for their c.v. They do it-and we do
it-because the work we all do is vital, because we believe in an alternative to
the rest of the deadly dull gatherings which pass for conferences in academia,
and because we are dedicated to building a community of scholars, activists, and
artists who can support each other in our work.
I look forward to seeing you in October.
Kali Tal
Sixties Project & Viet Nam Generation, Inc.
18 Center Rd., Woodbridge, CT 06525
203/387-6882; fax 203/389-6104
email: kalital@minerva.cis.yale.edu
home page: http://kalital.polisci.yale.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 10:08:21 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Willa Jarnagin <JARNAGIN@HULAW1.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Free Verse Foot
In-Reply-To: <00993E2C.DE0ADE3E.100@admin.njit.edu>
> now let me be a wet blanket and say that, thanks to grad school and beyond
> (the perils of an education where I saw/read enough poetry from various
> times and places to see that there is no definition of poetry which can
> be applied universally), poetry has been "demystified" for me; there is no
> such thing as poetry (though I'll play the scan game anytime because it is
> so much fun but inconclusive). There is only the poetic. And there is history,
> a pleasure and maybe of some use to scholar and poet alike.
>
> Burt
What a loss! Poetry has been demystified for you and you no longer
believe in it. There's no such thing as poetry?
I think this is where Theory goes back in time and kills its mother. What
are we all talking about if there is no poetry? Come on. Of course there is.
The more I "know" about poetry, the more mysterious it becomes. The more
I write, the harder it gets.
Just because there is no universal, static definition of poetry, that
doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Though perhaps it is a matter of faith. We
don't know what souls are either, but many of us believe we have them.
Who knows what animates one pile of words and not another? But can you
deny that some word combinations do "come to life," invoke something
beyond narrative, some mystery? To me, the very undefinability (is that a
word?) of a poem is what MAKES it a poem.
I can't believe grad school can kill a great poem, because nothing can
kill a great poem. Maybe the ability to fathom mystery is wounded by
certain kinds of education. If somebody convinces you that you know that
much, maybe you ought to wonder....
Willa J.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 08:33:28 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Nanker Phlege <ER0595@ALBNYVMS.BITNET>
Subject: pseudononomous newbie
hi all, been perusing and emotionally espousing over the past day--
this list, in particular. i have chosen an alias howevver some albany
folks may know who this is...it is slightly easier to relate to cyber-
folks when certain things are _not_ an issue....in terms of the current
prosodic debate, i've found e.a.poe's essay _rationale of verse_ to be a
witty and insightful adventure into that topic. dry, very dry posting, but
there is so much to read, learn and digest (too bad there is no way to use
_logic_ symbology on this screen, ie "therefore") i have chosen to receive
these postings via the _digest_ able option, therefore responses may be
referential to the previous day's discourse.
have a great day.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 10:39:40 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Willa Jarnagin <JARNAGIN@HULAW1.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: renga anyone?
In-Reply-To: <199507251922.PAA67736@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU>
In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books
writing themselves senseless, battery low
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 08:18:39 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: Re: Yasusada = Ern Malley
This is Kevin Killian . . . I have my own two cents to add about the
Yasusada saga, but first I want to know if I understand correctly, is
"First Intensity" publishing yet more "new" work by Yasusada? It seems
like a nightmare from several years back.
I remember trying to get in touch with Tosa Motokiyu who for some reason
had a P O Box in Sonoma County somewhere, and was sent a phone number-it
was like a spy novel by Ian Fleming. Anyhow late at night, say, after
midnight, a woman called me up and told me that Tosa Motokiyu was not to be
bothered any more, that he was going through a painful divorce and no, no
matter what I thought, neither the Yasusada circle nor the
Motokiyu-Norinaga-Kyogin circle had any homosexual implications. No unlike
the Georgekreis or the Spicer group there was no homosexual taint to either
Japanese group.
"I was just wondering," I said defensively.
"You have been misled, by your own imagination," she replied calmly. "You
don't understand the Japanese way of life."
This was so true I couldn't think of what to add. She explained that
Japanese poets giggle at Western homosexuality.
After we hung up I had this uneasy feeling and started wondering whether or
not Motokiyu had been honest with me.
Then I heard that the whole Yasusada corpus was very much a contemporary
product of a middle-aged white male poet, well known in the US, but not
well enough known for his own self-esteem as we say here in San Francisco.
This man had come up with the idea of inventing a whole Hiroshima poetry to
test the openness of U S magazines. He was frustrated that his own poetry
was being rejected at every turn whereas people of color no matter how
untalented were being published. "Yasusada" was to be his revenge on the
whole idea of the "politically correct," "multicultural" range of writing
being published & preferred today.
I was sent dozens and dozens of Yasusada's poems, and like Ron, was
impressed. This was clearly a labor of love, if a little crazy and, by
implication, way homophobic and racist. These events took place several
years ago as I say. But I am still smarting from that dry little laugh on
the phone from Sonoma. If Lee Chapman is on this list perhaps she could
clear up how and when she came in contact with the poetry she printed in
"First Intensity"? Thanks you all!
Rod writes:
>
>"I feel an obligation to point out that it's not clear that Haraki
>Yasusada actually exists. I published a group discussion in _Aerial
>6/7_ >called "Renga & the New Sentence" by what purported to be three
>Japanese poet/critics. I suspected at the time that it might be a fake,
>but chose to publish it anyway, as it was simply too good to turn down.
>I've since had a conversation that *seems* to confirm my suspicions
>(No, I can't say more than that). Tho it's still unclear."
>
>Both Avery Burns and Eric Selland swear that Yasusada is a fictive
>project, as are his translators. Selland, a translator of Japanese by
>trade who's spent years over there and knows the poetry scene
>intimately, should be in a position to know.
>
>Still, the work in Conjunctions is very good. I posted an enthusiastic
>comment to this list when it first came out that I believe Luigi-Bob
>may have reprinted in Taproot.
>
>Ron
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 12:07:19 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X
From: Alan Golding <ACGOLD01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject: Various and Sundry II: The Smorgasbord
Associate Professor of English, U. of Louisville
Phone: (502)-852-5918; e-mail: acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu
A number of folks have asked, backchannel and front(?)channel, about the taped
readings that I mentioned: details on how to get them, etc. You should contact
Harriette Seiler, the Twentieth-Century Conference director; e-mail is
hmseil01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu. Harriette will have more specific information
than I do on the exact tapes that are available, price, etc. Let me know if
you have any problems getting hold of her.
Tom Kirby-Smith and "I can't walk": Yes, Phil Collins, but if we're (I'm)
going to be scholarly about it, Phil in his post-Peter Gabriel Genesis
incarnation, not in his Phil Collins incarnation.
On "soul," "spirit," etc. (I promise I won't say a word on it after this): for
fine (in all senses) meditations on these issues by a terrific contemporary
poet, see John Taggart's slim book on Hopper, Remaining in Light, and
his recent essay collection, Songs of Degrees (U of Alabama P). The questions
involved are more complicated than those of personal "belief," I take it; and
I take it partly because even as a devout atheist who can occasionally
approach agnosticism on a good day, I've found these books v. compelling
reading.
On the free verse prosody discussion: years ago I wrote an essay on Olson that
began as an attempt to come up with some kind of system or methodology for
analyzing/discussing non-metrical prosody. Part of my argument, however, was
that one needed to approach this analysis on a poet-by-poet, case-by-case
basis; that you could generalize about an individual poet's practice (or
practices, allowing for work by the same person in different modes, different
stages of their career, etc.) but that it was awfully hard to come up with a
method that applied across different poets' work (except for something that
operated at an unsatisfactory level of generality). And I tried to illustrate
all this via what now looks like a rather pedantic and technical close
prosodic analysis of "In Cold Hell, In Thicket." I have pretty mixed feelings
about this essay now, but my excuse/defense is that at the time of writing
(late '70s) hardly anything had been done on the subject as far as I knew,
though I think Don Wesling was getting going on his work around the same time.
Anyway, for anyone who's interested, the piece was in Language and Style 14
(1981).
Alan
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 11:37:57 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: secrets of the list
charles a writes
> About the list, open or closed, are we snobs?
..
>
> I don't know; I suppose I'd try it and find out. Here I've heard
> about foot, soul, and jelly roll, buffalo wings, cassette royalties, and a
> little more.
>
thanks for the thoughtful discussion, charles. but i missed the buffalo wings.
has the soul been discovered therein?--md
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 13:41:08 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rod Smith <AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Free Verse Soot
>Poetry has been "demystified" for you so it no longer exists?
>Well, I never thought I'd find myself quoting Dylan Thomas but:
>"The tricks are easy to learn, it's the art that's difficult."
(or words to that effect).
Can't say as I see how calling it "art" clarifys. & it's true, I hope, that
the longer you write the more you learn, but I'm with B.K. in that the
"poetic" is not finally defineable. You know it when you see it, & who sees
it where is different, I think, for different people.
--Rod
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 14:27:02 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rod Smith <AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: George and Ludwig (fwd)
Thanks for the great feedback Gabrielle. I'm not stuck on the position I
presented (or maybe I am) but for the sake of the network of standard
stoppages I'll spin out a "defense."
Key to the differences we might have I think is this passage:
I wrote:
>. . .Which points to possibilities, that the ideas are already
> extant, within language, within contexts. . .
You responded:
>This, to me, gets dangerous again--as though the ideas like >things exist
somehow within language but independent of it. Back to the >private
>image and solipsism.
I don't see how what I wrote cld be construed as taking a position which
implied the formulation "within language but somehow independent of it." What
I wrote seems to me to be saying pretty much what the Hejinian quote I cited
is saying. Which is precisely that ideas are not private (subjective), but
rather contextual (intersubjective), in ways we don't entirely understand--
thus the "in the air" formulation. A more accurate formulation is probably
not possible because no context is _ultimately_ defineable, because all
contexts are interrelated. This is a bit of Buddhist propaganda, but it seems
to me useful. (I'm not arguing that there's never enough information in a
given situation to act, merely that there are always more elements which
could be taken into account). To boil it down perhaps what I'm saying is that
every idea is an interaction. That the "heart of an idea" is not locatable
"except in its use"!
> It only gets tricky if one
>starts taking the metaphor seriously and concretizing it and
using it to
>explain the world.
It seems to me the viability of this articulation is only apparent precisely
when it is concretized. A good example of this is Cage's process in his later
writings such as _Themes & Variations_ , _I-VI_, & "Art Is Either A Complaint
Or Do Something Else." In this series he tried, & I think he often succeeded,
"to find a way of writing which though coming from ideas is not about them;
or is not about ideas but produces them." The manner in which he did this is
outlined in the introduction to _I-VI_ and in the interview w/ Joan Retallack
in _Aerial 6/7_, among other places. Briefly, it involved subjecting a source
text (or texts) to chance operations which then presented him with a mix of
source materials in which he then searched for ideas, eliminating materials
which allowed them to emerge. These were not necessarily semantic "ideas" but
could as well be "musical"-- i.e. related to the sound and texture, the
movement of language, as well as to the making of statements, obviously they
are always in some sense both of these.
Though one need not cite Cage to illustrate my point. Ashbery's "floating
pronouns" in a poem like "These Lacustrine Cities," or
Mallarme's famous "All Thought emits a Throw of the Dice" ("Tout Pensee emet
un Coup de Des") can't figure how to get diactical markings on this new
keyboard)), relate to what I'm saying. More recently Carla Harryman's "Toy
Boats" in _Poetics Journal 5_ seems to me an excellent articulation of the
ways of thinking about these issues I'm forwarding. She writes: "I am an
indication of what occurs around me." & also, beautifully, "Both belief and
denial throw existence into question." She ends the piece with the following
paragraph: "A structure for writing that comes from anticipation relative to
an elsewhere, which to become a somewhere-- i.e., a writing --must borrow
from the things of this world in their partiality."
So, that's what I think right now. To respond to a few other points-- I
suspect that the idea of a schism in Wittgenstein's thought is based
partially in the events of his life, & I don't think that's an entirely bogus
point of view. In retrospect we can see the seeds of the late thought in the
early but there does seem an openness to a less proscriptive investigation in
the later work I think. It seems to me in the _Tractatus_ that he, like Pound
for so long, wanted to make it cohere.
Also you wrote:
> Look at how people make theories out of their
feelings, then concretize the theories and make the world fit >their
feelings.
It's become a bit of a cliche to say, but I'm not sure in the end we can
distinguish between emotion & intellect. That perhaps an oversimplification,
and if I were a scientist I might not say that. However, I was reading in
Alan Ryan's biography of Dewey
last night-- Dewey argued that "what scientists do when they try to
understand the world is not very different from what any of us do when we try
to decide what to do or think"-- this _feels_ right to me. (Dewey eschewed
both violent revolution & acceptance of the status quo in favor of the slogan
"Intelligent Action!" & although tagged "pragmatist" prefered the term
"experimentalism" -- i.e. find out what works and do that. Chomsky went to a
Deweyite school in Philadelphia til the age of 12.)
& finally (I didn't expect this to be such a long post, geeze, now I have to
keep myself from writing another lengthy response to a, to me, seriously
reductive comparison of Zorn & Cage by Kevin McNeilly which appears in the
Jan. _Postmodern Culture_-- don't nobody tell Bruce how much time I'm
spending on here, I'm supposed to be working on the Andrews issue of Aerial,
it's our little secret, please) Gabrielle wrote:
>We speak in wonderful metaphors (I'm getting pictures of ideas like
>puppies waiting for an owner to come home).
I'm exactly arguing that ideas don't have "owners," but we come home to them
whether we want to or not. Art's part of what makes us aware of when they're
around. & some may be puppies, some grown-up, some old, some dead dogs--
mutts, chihuahuas, pit bulls, lassies, Snoopys & Goofys (Baudrillard?) &, of
course, east german shepherds. ggrrrrawwlrrrruff! ruff! ruff!
--Rod
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 11:55:10 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM>
Subject: Re: pseudononomous newbie
George Bowering just commented the other day about pop star-poets & now
here's Nanker Phlege on board.
Hi, Nanker. I'd always thought your last name was spelled Phelge, but then,
you would know.
Herb Levy
herb@eskimo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 16:29:02 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "H. T. KIRBY-SMITH" <KIRBYS@FAGAN.UNCG.EDU>
Organization: University of NC at Greensboro
Subject: ON THE CONTRARY
I think that I was advised in THE IDIOT'S GUIDE TO THE INTERNET
never to say anything ironic by e-mail.
Once Douglas Bush, lecturing at Harvard, made reference to the
discovery of Wordsorth's illegitimate child and remarked drily, that
"This discovery has done much to enhance his reputation in some
quarters." A Boston Newspaper reported this as an example of the
degeneracy of the academic profession. After that Bush advised,
with some shade of irony, "Never be ironic!"
With ingenuous candor I would like to say that Marjorie Perloff is
absolutely right about this business of free verse feet/rhythms. (On
the subject of John Cage, though, I'd rather observe a few minutes of
complete silence.)
Tom Kirby-Smith
English Department
UNC-Greensboro
Greensboro NC 27412
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 16:40:44 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Free Verse Foot
re: periodization: substitute contextual for historical.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 16:44:55 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Nanker Phlege <ER0595@ALBNYVMS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: pseudononomous newbie
yes, the name has been changed to protect the innocent from copywrite
issues.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 16:54:55 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Free Verse Foot
Jonathan,
Nothing "tricky" or facile about my relationship to the non-existent
poetry, but rather the opposite. Like marriage perhaps. Get past the
romantic stuff and really get down to the "real" thing, which ends up
being expressed in one or another finite ejaculation that stems out of
profound doubt or whatever. Don't mean to go Buddhist of Bronk on you,
but anyway, let me say that I believe in poetry, yet cannot ever say
comprehensively what it is, and this is good because this means that
I am now looking not at the poetry but at the human beings who make/have
made it. I.e., when I contemplate poetry I am using it as a tool for
learning about, for coming to know, the human experience.
Now I'm afraid I'm slipping back into the kind of pleasurable circular and
double talk that I participated in with some others on this list not long ago
about art etc., where to draw lines and so on.
Please don't take what I said, finally, as being either nihilistic or trite.
Rather, I am sharing with you my deepest concerns. And I welcome responses to
what I say because I am listening.
As Bronk once ended an early poem of his:
"I'd talk to you if I thought I could.
Tell me. What do you know?"
[qtd frm memory]
Burt
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 17:16:38 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Free Verse Foot
Willa,
Cf. my last post to Jonathan. I did not say I did not believe in poetry. And
yes, as you say, the mystery is the thing! Let me correct you on one point:
theory has not spoiled poetry for me--it has deepened it for me. I am not
afraid of knowledge (though I deplore jargon as much as the next gal or guy).
My demystification came about from seeing so many "versions" of poetry that
didn't conform to each other, in various times and places, that I had to
conclude that poetry was culture specific. E.g, Beowulf's meter has what tto
do with with, say, Haiku (or even Renga!). Now, as for "the poetic"--here
I think we can begin to talk consistently about a human experience that
transcends particular culture, period, etc.
Burt
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 14:03:39 +0000
Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <jzitt@bga.com>
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@HUMANSYSTEMS.COM>
Organization: HumanSystems
Subject: Re: Renga 1
Comments: To: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
On 26 Jul 95 at 3:04, Ron Silliman wrote:
> >
> >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
> >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
Solemn air and sabbath retrograde
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/ Online Representative, Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 18:27:08 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Scheil <cschei1@GRFN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Renga 3
In-Reply-To: <199507261002.DAA08106@ix8.ix.netcom.com>
On Wed, 26 Jul 1995, Ron Silliman wrote:
> >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books
> That cooks would look to in the hope of
many forms of soup comingled (miso-plum puree, chalk-salt
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 14:48:41 -1000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: AA/student loan protest
I thought that some of you in California might be interested in Jamie's
intention to get a protest rolling about the Affirmative ACtion cut at
Berkeley and all the other cuts that are or will be devastating students,
welfare recipients and many others. I'm sure she'd appreciate word from
anyone who'd like to get involved.
Gabrielle
From: jaMarchant@aol.com
A month or two ago (whenever it was) when I first heard about Republicans'
prosed cuts in the student loan program, I could not believe it was real. I
couldn't think they would seriously cut a program so needed and long standing
while proposing more tax cuts for the wealthy and while we still provide
cooperations with billions of dollars to help them finance overseas
advertising. I was sure there would be protests and that "they" would do
something to stop this from happening.
Then last week when Wilson in a brash (I could use other adjectives, but I
will refrain) political move eliminated all AA in the UC system despite
protests from students, administration, and faculty, I deeply hoped that this
would backfire on him, and again that "they" would protest and do something
to make Wilson regret the day that he ever made such a rash move.
Then last night after composing my second post about our common enemy--the
richest 1% who control 40% of the wealth--(I hope I didn't wax too
melodramatic in my sleep deprived state), I began to wonder who this mystery
"they" that was going to stop Wilson and the Republicans on these two issues
was. Regardless of how any of you feel about AA, the student loans cut if
they go through we end up costing all of us in a very direct way--$1000s or
$10,000s, and I know that most, if not all of us, are already broke and
deeply in debt. If we, including myself, keep waiting around for "them" to
do something, we may be waiting for the rest of our lives and end up in
debtors' prision (since this now seems a very reasonable next move for the
Republicans).
It was then that I got my idea of organizing a protest march on Sacramento,
protesting these two issues. I envisioned this protest occurring on the
second weekend after Fall semester begins on the UC campuses (could someone
attending a UC tell me when this would be?). This would give undergraduates
time to return to campus and get involved. In my mind, this grew into a
tremendous protest by getting, in addition to students, groups such as NOW,
the League of Women Voters, Jesse Jackson and his group, the Mexican American
Legal Defense league, Senators Boxer and Feinstein, etc., involved and acting
as co-sponsors of the protest. I envisioned simulateous, although smaller,
protests occuring in other states. In my sleep deprived state, this grew
into the largest student protest since the 60s.
So tell me have I come up with a brilliant idea, if slightly exaggerated
idea, or do I need to go back to bed and get some more sleep? I can't do
this alone. If you believe that it is a good idea and that it could work,
would you be willing to help, or do you have advice as to how we should go
about organizing such a thing? If I go ahead on this, Erik or any other
Counsel representative, would the Graduate Student Caucus give its official
support, meaning allowing us to use its name to give us creditability when
contacting other groups? I really think that there is enough angry out there
to mobilize people if someone would start the ball rolling.
I'm leaving town tomorrow to attend a Conference in Mississippi
and will be gone for about a week. I look forward (I think) to hearing your
responses on this matter when I get back. You can send your responses to my
personal email if you want since I'm not sure we should be taking up any more
space on the list.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 14:50:25 -1000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: UC Berkeley Regents Meeting - warning LONG (fwd)
I thought the political among us would be interested in this close-up of
the Regents' meeting at Berkeley. Gabrielle
>
>
>FYI...some notes on last week's Regents meeting from Charles Schwartz,
>UC Berkeley Professor Emeritus and Activist.
>
>\Regards,
>Alan Inouye
>
> July 25, 1995
>
> Governor Pete Wilson scored a major political victory
>for his Presidential campaign when he lined up his friends on
>the UC Board of Regents last week to trash the University's
>affirmative action programs. What will the consequences be?
>
> Here is a collection of statements made at the Regents
>meeting on July 20-21,1995, which should be of special interest
>to UC faculty members. They go beyond the particular issue of
>affirmative action and point out more fundamental challenges to
>the University. At the end I have posed some questions for my
>colleagues to ponder.
>
> ***** PLEASE RE-CIRCULATE THIS WIDELY *****
>_______________________________________________________________
>_______________________________________________________________
>
> During the public comment period of the Regents meeting on
>Thursday, a number of speakers recited the following statement
>of principle, which is contained in Article IX Section 9 of the
>Constitution of the State of California:
>
>"The University shall be entirely independent of all political
>or sectarian influence and kept free therefrom in the appoint-
>ment of its regents and in the administration of its affairs"
>_______________________________________________________________
>
>DEAN HAILE DEBAS: "Governor Wilson, President Peltason, Regents,
>Ladies and Gentlemen, thank you very much for the privilege of
>addressing you today. I am dean of the School of Medicine at
>the University of California, San Francisco, but I have been
>associated with UC since the early 1970s. The University of
>California is an institution that I have come to love and
>greatly admire. I am, therefore, greatly saddened that what
>should be a solemn and deliberative meeting, the outcome of
>which will have far reaching effects, has been hijacked by
>political ambition and obscure personal agendas.
>
> "The debate on affirmative action raises two important
>philosophical issues: 1) Does the public underwrite higher
>education to benefit the individual or society? 2) In an
>academic institution, what body or bodies appropriately
>determine academic policy?
>
> "While watching CBS's Face the Nation last Sunday, I heard
>Governor Wilson state that admission to the University of
>California is based not on merit, but on race and gender. As a
>UC dean, I feel compelled to respond to that extraordinary
>statement.
>
> "The admissions policy at UCSF is not politically
>motivated. It has been very carefully developed, debated,
>modified and improved over the span of 30 years. An applicant's
>race or ethnicity, as well as socioeconomic status regardless of
>race, are considered during the second screening of our eight-
>step admissions process. This information is used to evaluate
>the hardships a student has had to overcome to achieve his or
>her grade point average and MCAT score. We have no quotas or
>set-asides. A process such as this is the only way to
>effectively combat the inherent disadvantage of belonging to
>certain racial or socio-economic groups in American society.
>
> "Our admission system has enabled us to achieve diversity
>and national academic preeminence. One might ask, But can you
>show that your affirmative action program directly benefits the
>diverse population of California? The answer is unequivocally
>YES!
>
> "A recent UCSF study conclusively confirmed what we have
>long suspected: that African-American and Hispanic physicians
>return to serve their respective communities, the very
>communities that need more doctors!
>
> "Hence, if you, the Regents of the University of
>California, believe that the public underwrites higher education
>to benefit society, you cannot close your eyes to these
>compelling findings. These accomplishments would not have been
>possible without affirmative action. If you dismantle
>affirmative action, you are denying the nation the healing
>opportunity to reject the injustice of race and class
>discrimination.
>
> "Now, let me be personal and take a look at my own career.
>I have often examined and rejected that my success was due to
>special considerations I might have received because I am Black.
>Like some other successful minorities, I have wanted the world
>to know that my success represents a personal triumph.
>
> "However, it would be both disingenuous and self-serving if
>I failed to recognize, and publicly acknowledge, that without
>the environment created by Affirmative Action, the doors would
>have been closed to me.
>
> "And now for my final comments: 1) If you vote to dismantle
>affirmative action, you are doing so in defiance and in utter
>disregard, of the entire University: in defiance of its
>president, of all its vice presidents, of all its chancellors,
>of the academic faculty senates of all nine campuses, of the
>systemwide academic council, and of the student leadership.
>2) It would be an outrage if thirteen or fourteen regents,
>acting alone, destroyed an historic instrument of social
>progress in a moment of political frenzy.
>
> "At the very least, you should table the proposal until
>you have adequately considered the individuals and communities
>you will harm, and until you can examine it with the thought
>and deliberation it deserves. Thank you!"
>_______________________________________________________________
> -- Thursday evening, Regents' debate --
>
>REGENT JOHN DAVIES (a close personal friend and political ally
>of Governor Wilson): "I would like to go back and somehow
>describe if I can the agonizing process we have all gone
>through here as regents to arrive at this point. This is not a
>recent political phenomenon. This subject started to percolate
>over a year ago when a couple at San Diego complained about
>their son being refused admission to the medical school in San
>Diego. And that led to studies at the request of regents and
>presentations beginning in November. All that time, as I
>recall, there was no Presidential campaign going on. That's
>just a false charge. This item ... [noise from audience]
>
> "I listened to you for six and a half hours; give me my
>five minutes. We then had presentations throughout the first
>six months of this year on various aspects of the subject of
>affirmative action. ... This has been a very difficult process.
>What I have learned from that process is that we use race in an
>impermissible way in governing admissions and contracting and
>hiring. The proof of it is a statement made here in response
>to Regent Carmona's question, What would be the effect at
>Berkeley of eliminating race as a factor in admissions? It
>would take admissions [of African-American freshman] from 207 to
>44. And if that isn't a significant factor, I don't know what
>is. That's a dominant factor.
>
> "I agree with Regent Leach's analysis. We are not talking
>about doing away with affirmative action. Everybody on this
>Board supports affirmative action. [noise from audience]
>
> "We support the goal of achieving diversity. We realize
>the necessity of having diversity on the campuses. The people
>of this state have to feel that they are all a part, they have
>to buy into a system that is healthy for everybody. We cannot
>exist without doing that. The question is whether this is the
>right tool to use. My opinion is that we have learned that this
>tool does more harm than good. Now I am determined to find a
>different way. And I think Regent Connerly's proposal directs
>the Academic Senate to develop supplemental factors that could
>be used, excluding race, to get us a diverse student body that
>we should have. And if they can't come up with something that
>will achieve that diversity, then we need new faculty. That
>should not be that difficult. [noise from audience]
>
> "I am not talking about just economic factors, the whole
>list of supplemental factors and it would include all the
>disadvantages we heard spoken to this morning so eloquently by
>people who have suffered from them. Those factors should be
>considered, those are obstacles that are overcome, those
>should help people be admitted into the University. But that
>doesn't mean it is morally right to award places in the
>University on the basis of race. I agree with Regent Leach in
>that respect. So I support both of Regent Connerly's proposals."
>
>_______________________________________________________________
> -- Friday morning, public comment period --
>
>REGENT ROY BROPHY: "Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am speaking on
>Ed Policy 305, which is Shared Governance. That permits me to
>say what I intend to say and that is: If there ever was a
>violation of shared governance it occurred during the
>affirmative action vote yesterday. I am not going to talk about
>how the votes came about, I am not going to talk about
>affirmative action. ... Your Board managed to circumvent the
>president. Your board managed to circumvent the chancellors,
>and also to circumvent the faculty and you managed to circumvent
>the students. I would say staff too, I am sure they were
>circumvented somewhere along the line, also it is going to
>affect them.
>
> "But, it bothers me, not that we passed the thing, not
>because of what we voted on, not really because of the political
>pressure that was involved in the vote. But what bothers me
>more than anything else is for us to circumvent the best people
>we have, ...those are the Chancellors. That was so unfortunate,
>and the president and the faculty and the students. But I only
>hope in the future that we can keep it in mind that if we are
>going to do something like this let's not have a quick vote and
>shake hands and go home. We must plan for the future, in the
>future, that everyone is involved in the process ..."
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>
>PROFESSOR CHARLES SCHWARTZ: "Two items related to your agenda.
>The first one is 507 on the Finance Committee: Budget Plan ...
>
> "In connection with budget problems, yesterday's action
>raises serious budget issue that I think has not been called to
>your attention. An essential part of Connerly's proposal to
>change admissions policy involves the redirection and
>improvement and enlargement of academic outreach programs to K
>through twelve. This is the essential feature of the program
>you voted in to get rid of race-based stuff and bring in
>improved academic outreach. And I ask the very simple question,
>What is that program going to cost? I believe it was
>irresponsible of Mr. Connerly to bring that proposal to the
>Board without a cost estimate. In that document, "
>
>REGENT JOHN DAVIES: "Point of order, Mr. Chairman, which item
>does this discussion relate to?"
>
>REGENT CLAIR BURGENER (Chair): "Professor, which item on our
>agenda today do your comments ..."
>
>SCHWARTZ: "This has to do with general budget planning."
>
>DAVIES: "I don't think there is any such item."
>
>SCHWARTZ: "507"
>
>DAVIES: "That is not a general budget item."
>
>SCHWARTZ: "It is integrally related to budget planning. 507 is
>about cuts in next year's budget and among other things, they
>are going to be a lot worse to deal with if you were truthful
>and honest in the commitment this Board made, not just to try
>and improve academic outreach, but in Connerly's words to
>achieve effectively the increased UC eligibility of Latinos,
>Blacks and other underrepresented groups throughout the country.
>It was irresponsible of this Board not to ask for a cost
>estimate before you voted for that. It is not going to be a
>problem solved by throwing a couple of more million into the
>outreach program. It is an enormously expensive job of social
>engineering that you have committed yourselves to. And a very
>practical question, Who is going to pay for that? Thank you,
>on that topic."
>
>[Some dispute about time for further comments]
>
>SCHWARTZ: "I do thank you for that [additional 3 minutes]. It
>will be on the implications of what you did yesterday in a
>broader context. I am not going to argue the pros and cons of
>affirmative action but what you did yesterday and its
>implications for the University. A couple of the speakers
>yesterday spoke to that question, most particularly Professor
>Simmons and Dean Debas. I think you have no idea of the short
>term and long term implications of the politicization that came
>to this Board yesterday. [further objections are heard]
>
> "Mr. Davies will leave. He doesn't care to hear this.
>This fundamental question of the independence, the political
>independence of the university: What are and will be the
>consequences? I don't know yet what the faculty at large
>thinks, will think about this. But I am very frightened that
>there will be - regardless of how many times people here say it
>was not politics, it was some other issue - the impression
>among many of the faculty at the University and faculty in the
>national academic community, that this Board has violated its
>obligation to protect the university from politics and has
>railroaded in a most divisive political issue into the
>University. And what enormous harm this can do.
>
> "I think we are going to have to address that issue. You
>can not turn away from it. It will last for a long time. I
>suggest, among other things, you review the history of the
>Loyalty Oath in the fifties. Very interesting parallels; and
>the great damage that was done by an overzealous Board of
>Regents responding on high moral grounds to a strong popular
>public issue.
>
> "It's worse than that. I think Regent Brophy was talking
>about this: ... the very clear fracture within the Board; and
>the very clear fracture between the Board and its appointed
>administrative and faculty representatives. That is a very
>serious issue whose repercussions are enormous.
>
> "Now, I know that Mr. Brophy [who chairs the Regents
>presidential search committee] has problems in getting a
>president that must be overwhelming. You may have one
>perspective on it, but think about the perspective of faculty
>people. What self-respecting college president would take this
>job when he knows he's got a Board of Regents that is likely to
>come ramming in with God-knows-what political issue next week?
>But of course, you will find someone to be president. And what
>will the faculty think of that someone? A political tool of the
>Regents and whatever political clique happens to be in the
>majority of the Board. That is not a very healthy way in which
>to maintain a great university.
>
> "And it's worse than that. Because what also came out
>clearly yesterday was that members of the Board, at least some
>of them, believe that the administrators lie to them, conceal
>facts, and are unwilling to sit down and discuss issues
>seriously. That is an issue in which I have had personal
>experience. And you are right. But how can you run a university
>with such fractures in it? [the gavel is heard]
>
> "I have suggestions, but I've run out of time. Thank you."
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>_______________________________________________________________
>
> Above and beyond the debate over affirmative action, we
>see an ancient question now thrust before the faculty of the
>University of California: QUIS CUSTODIET IPSOS CUSTODES?
>(who shall keep the keepers themselves?)
>
> The primary responsibility of the Regents is to keep the
>University "entirely independent of all political or sectarian
>influence"; but they themselves have now become the trespassers.
>Who but the faculty, acting together, can mount the effort
>necessary to restore the principle of academic independence, for
>the benefit of this university and for others as well? And if
>we fail to do this, what consequences can we expect?
>
> I invite your responses to this challenge.
>
>
>Charles Schwartz schwartz@physics.berkeley.edu
>Physics Department, UCB 510/642-4427
>Berkeley, CA 94720
>
>
>
>
--
Joe Aimone
Department of English
University of California, Davis
joaimone@ucdavis.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 20:53:25 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Herb to George
In-Reply-To: <199507260401.VAA26177@sparta.SJSU.EDU>
Now that's an odd question to these ears. Jazz musicians who wrote and
published poetry include Oliver Lake, Sun Ra, Cecil Taylor, Joseph
Jarman, and even , now and then, Dewey Redman. Don't know if son Joshua
has had a try at verse yet.
But then, the question was prbably meant to be ironic, no?
maybe Dewey didn't actually write the poem I once heard him recite, though.
& eliot wouldn't know a saxophone from a telephone. not his instrument --
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 00:34:37 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rod Smith <AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Renga1
> >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
> >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
>Solemn air and sabbath retrograde
Why: these dots in the race when dreamt, did birds
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 21:59:19 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steve Carll <sjcarll@SLIP.NET>
Subject: the feminine
> "It may
>seem like a betrayal of the few courageous women who are our clear
>'feminist' ancestors . . . to acknowledge a 'feminine' tradition
>dominated by males. But it is far worse to deny the presence of the
>feminine in language (as Ostriker and others do) by missing the fact that
>the feminine has never been exclusively 'embodied' in female writers."
>The essay can be found in FEMINIST MEASURES, edited by Lynn Keller and
>Cristanne Miller (U of Michigan Press). There are problems with the
>argument--why still call this move "feminine"?--but it is a marvelous
>antidote to Ostriker et al's essentialism.
Hi Susan--
Just out of curiosity, what would you suggest as an alternative to
"feminine", assuming as I am that the term "feminine" has instead here been
dislocated from "femaleness" to suggest a set of attributes possessed by
both men and women? Or is this a misreading?
Steve
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 03:03:12 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Huey, Dewey, Louis
Of course in George's original list of Lewis, Redman and Zukofsky, he
neglected to mention that Huey Lewis is the stepson of Lew Welch!
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 10:02:17 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Willa Jarnagin <JARNAGIN@HULAW1.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Free Verse Foot
In-Reply-To: <00993F04.0801138E.78@admin.njit.edu>
> Cf. my last post to Jonathan. I did not say I did not believe in poetry. And
> yes, as you say, the mystery is the thing! Let me correct you on one point:
> theory has not spoiled poetry for me--it has deepened it for me. I am not
> afraid of knowledge (though I deplore jargon as much as the next gal or guy).
> My demystification came about from seeing so many "versions" of poetry that
> didn't conform to each other, in various times and places, that I had to
> conclude that poetry was culture specific. E.g, Beowulf's meter has what tto
> do with with, say, Haiku (or even Renga!). Now, as for "the poetic"--here
> I think we can begin to talk consistently about a human experience that
> transcends particular culture, period, etc.
>
> Burt
Burt,
I was responding to your phrase "there is no such thing as poetry." But
I'm glad you DO believe in poetry afterall. I don't think that knowledge
can destroy anything, nevermind poetry. Theory is just another tool,
another language, and I don't even think "jargon" is so bad; it's just
words we invent to use among ourselves. I guess people are wary of jargon
because it might seem to exclude those outside the 'circle'. But all
circles of people, sub-cultures, whatever you want to call them, make up
their own words to use among themselves. My sister and her husband and
their two-year-old daughter have their own language.
You're saying that poetry is culture-specific, but the poetic transcends
cultural differences? That's an interesting thought. (Is this where your
disdain for jargon comes from? Jargon is hyper-culture-specific, and
therefore limits the poetic?) But it seems that FORMS of poetry, rather
than simply the whole entity of a POEM, is what is culture-specific. Yes,
Beowolf's meter has little in common with Haiku, but the emotional
content of two such different kinds of poems might be the same.
What do you think?
Willa J.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 10:41:26 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jorge Guitart <MLLJORGE@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Renga1
In-Reply-To: <950727003428_123947178@aol.com>
On Thu, 27 Jul 1995, Rod Smith wrote:
> > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
> > >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
> > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
> >Solemn air and sabbath retrograde
> Why: these dots in the race when dreamt, did birds
> > > in flew inverted sabbath race in whistle window retrograde
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 11:03:18 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@ALBNYVMS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Herb to George
or Thomas to Frank (not Waldo, not Dylan, much less Zimmerman, or Lyden
or Rotten in Denmark--a live album (not jazz tho improving--Eliotic)
(BUdakon--Buddha--con--like the Naropa Catalogue's misappropriation of
Shakespeare's "One touch of nature makes the whole world kin" (a little
less than kind) with a little leaf, as if PIPING his wood notes wilde)
Anyway--A.L. writes
"and eliot wouldn't know a saxophone from a telephone"
and that's the one frank didn't reach for to right a poem, right?
cs.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 11:21:10 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Loss Glazier <lolpoet@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Chronicle
Just thought I'd mention that the Buffalo Poetics Program got a great
writeup in _The Chronicle of Higher Education_ article, "Bridging A
Divide Between Poetry And Criticism" on page A12 of the 7/28
issue. Well worth looking at! --Loss
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 11:30:39 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@ALBNYVMS.BITNET>
Subject: beowulf (willa jargon)
Willa raises a good point when she asks is it possible that the
emotional content of Beowulf and "Haiku" might possibly be the same--
I've been thinking about the "two poles" of the British poetic
tradition--that the two pieces often AT THE BEGINNING of most
anthologies are Caedmon's Hymn and Beowulf--and though the story
behind Caedmon's hymn is more interesting than the hymn itself
(bear with me if i sad this before--it's kinda a schtick), the
difference between the "lyric" and the "epic" sensibility in these
two pieces that we see still I suppose exists today---
One could say that if Caedmon were a character in Beowulf he would
actually be GRENDEL (if not Grendel's mother)--I think this notion
of the "sensitive" lyric outsider running away from society vs. the
"representative man" in Beowulf is quite emotionally distinct---
Yet,they are both potentially MALE COMPENSATORY fantasies--and
perhaps the "difference" between Dickinson and Whitman is a better
paradigm if I'd like to stress the emotional difference between
"epic" and "lyric"--for while Caedmon wanted to see "God as a roof"
Dickinson wanted the top of her head blown off and thus provides
a better Anti-Beowulf strategy (if that's what you're looking for)
---well, enough for now--I've probably already said too much....
Chris S.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 12:07:35 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steven Howard Shoemaker <ss6r@FERMI.CLAS.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Subject: renga worms
In-Reply-To: <199507270601.CAA123543@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU> from "Automatic
digest processor" at Jul 27, 95 00:01:52 am
Joe Zitt writes:
"I don't know if this is a common thing in renga wrangling, but I'm
interested in following up on what has started with the multiple
second lines being offered -- perhaps we could set up an ongoing
hypertext, branching off as the writing does so.
(Pardon if this is a beentheredonethat -- I am but a poor wagon
driver and unstudied in the ways of these lands B-]. )"
Yeah, it looks up this renga things opens up a whole can of hypertextual
worms. I didn't think about that when I proposed it, but i guess thats
a what-i-take-to-be-pretty-cool effect of transposing the form to
cyberspace. But i guess if people just respond to whatever branching
they like, and post their additions, the "thing" will/could unfold
naturally in ever-branching hyper-dendritic form.
Also: Charles Alexander, i think, points out that i started w/ a
sentence and asks if that's usual. Well, i really don't know, but i
guess you can do it however you like. The Yasusada, or make that
"Yasusada," selections in FI are in sentence form, so i took them
as a model. But i notice that in at least one of Ron Silliman's
contributions, he removed the period from my first sentence, thereby
starting a more stichic branching--which seems like a good idea too.
Somebody else--I think Rod Smith--asked about/proposed a rationale of
maximal disjunction between lines. Again, at the risk of belaboring
the point, this seems like a good idea for a particular branching....
In any event, i hope people will keep posting, 'cause i'd like to
see what turns up...
steve
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 13:28:53 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jordan Davis." <Jordan70@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Renga1
> > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
> > >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
> > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
> >Solemn air and sabbath retrograde
> Why: these dots in the race when dreamt, did birds
> > > in flew inverted sabbath race in whistle window retrograde
>We are feeling very good indeed among the lumber
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 13:33:02 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jordan Davis." <Jordan70@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Renga 1
New renga rule: every fourth line must include the word "cloud"
>In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
>And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
>The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 13:41:50 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jordan Davis." <Jordan70@AOL.COM>
Subject: rereading
As a sort of corollary to Kenny Goldsmith's vanity fair question--what books
are on your bedside table (which I just saw for the first time and am I
embarrassed!)--I'd like to ask the list what books people are re-reading. I
just went back to:
_Differences for Four Hands_ by Rosmarie Waldrop
_L'Archiviste_ by Laura Moriarty
_Fermina Marquez_ by Valery Larbaud
This was a thought provoked to speech by Juan Goytisolo's mildly vehement
piece on rereading in the _50_ anthology from S&M.
Curious,
Jordan
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 12:34:56 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Free Verse Foot
willa j writes:
.. You're saying that poetry is culture-specific, but the poetic transcends
> cultural differences? That's an interesting thought.
yes indeed. could anyone say more? not so much about the first half, but the
second. what is "the (transcultural) poetic"? a heightened sense of verbal
"power," in whatever (aesthetic, medicinal, social etc) sense ? a frame of mind
(as in,"bob kaufman was a poet 24 hrs a day, 365 days a yr", without writing a
word for 10 yrs, etc)?--md
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 16:09:30 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Encyclopedia of Jewish American poets and Playwrights
Sorry to all for talking publicly but maybe the following will be of general
interest after all.
Maria Damon:
my backchannel messages to you keep getting kicked back to me. So:
The editor of the Encyclopedia of Jew.-Am. Poets and playwrights, who last
I heard was still looking for people to write entries, is
Joel Shatzky, Dept of English, SUNY Cortland, NY 13045.
e-mail: shatzkyj@nycorva.cortland.edu
Hope this helps,
BK
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 16:23:41 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Free Verse Foot
Willa,
last first: I don't think that haiku and four stress alliterative OE verse
carry the same emotional charges. why this is is a big exploration.
now as for jargon: yes you are right that jargon includes and/or excludes,
and is defined by that function. but jargon is also a personal reaching-for,
a poeticism if you will, and way to say something that has not been expressed,
I think, and thus it can begin as not part of a group. Perhaps groups
coalesce around jargon, when people with like goals are attracted to a
discourse. My problem with jargon has to do with the fact that I wish for
there to be unity in my experience. Often, jargon is fabricated and thus is
of the present, and so the past, history, tends to get excluded. For
instance, I may know what you mean if you were to talk to me about, say,
"subject position," but I emotionally and maybe in some respects
cognitively--certainly psychologically, feel more comfortable with the term
"self," even as I may recognize that this term is so imprecise when discussing
for example the Western sense of "self" in the twelfth-century and in the
seventeenth-century and in the twentieth-century, that I cannot get very
far with it. On the other hand, "subject-position" provides me with a
revelation about individual consciousness vis-a-vis discourse within a group,
etc., that I can begin to think deeply about the differnt senses of self
at different times in history. Yet, damnit,
"subject-position" is clumsy esthetically and in other ways and also severely
limited. But most of all, it has very little to do with my life as a whole.
I suppose the rest of my life will have to catch-up with my use of
"subject-position" and not the other way around.
Anyway, what this all boils down to is, that, frankly, I can't imagine, say,
two people making love and using the term "subject-position" in their conver-
sation (let's presume that some people talk while they make love_. I.e.,
it feels and therefore in some sense it is, unnatural. But I guess what we
feel is natural changes?
YOurse,
Burt
(sorry for being so long winded and round about)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 16:29:37 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: beowulf (willa jargon)
Chris,
How much the same or different is Feudal Japanes culture and earliest Christian
German culture. I for one did not mean to set up the binary: lyric-epic.
as for male-female, your point seems well taken. I also wonder, anyway, to
get back to my original point on this, if you are reading Caedmon's Hymn
in the original where the music will come through, where the textures are what
perhaps one might have found if one were alive in pre-Millenium England or
the Germanies.
Burt
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 16:10:20 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Encyclopedia of Jewish American poets and Playwrights
In message <00993FC3.D19A36DE.8@admin.njit.edu> UB Poetics discussion group
writes:
> Sorry to all for talking publicly but maybe the following will be of general
> interest after all.
>
>
> Maria Damon:
>
> my backchannel messages to you keep getting kicked back to me. So:
>
> The editor of the Encyclopedia of Jew.-Am. Poets and playwrights, who last
> I heard was still looking for people to write entries, is
> Joel Shatzky, Dept of English, SUNY Cortland, NY 13045.
> e-mail: shatzkyj@nycorva.cortland.edu
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> BK
yes, thanks much. --md
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 17:52:11 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Marisa A Januzzi <jma5@COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Renga1
In-Reply-To: <950727132848_124288537@aol.com>
> > > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
> > > >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
> > > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
> > >Solemn air and sabbath retrograde
> > Why: these dots in the race when dreamt, did birds
> > > > in flew inverted sabbath race in whistle window retrograde
> many forms of soup comingled (miso-plum puree, chalk-salt
We are feeling very good indeed among the lumber
Spotted 72 King Penguins (No's 32, 33 and 66 missing)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 15:13:56 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Huey, Dewey, Louis
In-Reply-To: <199507271003.DAA23817@ix2.ix.netcom.com> from "Ron Silliman" at
Jul 27, 95 03:03:12 am
But listen here, I am betting that good as they are, Huey Lewis's
band aint going to remain news, so maybe they make good poetry but
not great poetry.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 15:20:01 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: pseudononomous newbie
In-Reply-To: <01HTBZUVYRO28Y6XU2@albnyvms.BITNET> from "Nanker Phlege" at Jul
26, 95 04:44:55 pm
"copywrite"?
--is this some sort of weak pun?
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 16:31:40 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ryan Knighton <knighton@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Renga 1
In-Reply-To: <950727133300_124291642@aol.com> from "Jordan Davis." at Jul 27,
95 01:33:02 pm
How about another rule: every fifth line must preceed the first:
Before alive and bled by law>
> >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
> >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
> >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 16:38:07 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ryan Knighton <knighton@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: rereading
In-Reply-To: <950727134120_124297859@aol.com> from "Jordan Davis." at Jul 27,
95 01:41:50 pm
No this will not be about "re rereading", although the subject line
implies something thereabouts.
Good question, though. Perhaps we should add why one is rereading
something. Yes?
Anyways, I've got salinger's Nine Short Stories back in hand, for
better or for worse. This is because of a conversation with friends
about the significance of fruit and color in several of them.
SAdly, this is it. I don't find the time for rereading, it seems. And
now that the question has been asked, I wonder why.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 13:53:35 -1000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Susan Schultz <sschultz@HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: the feminine
In-Reply-To: <199507270459.VAA12527@slip-1.slip.net>
Steve--yes, this is the question, isn't it? I think your reading is
entirely right; my problem, in the context of this article by Retallack,
is that "the feminine" is defined as/through "silence." While there's
real intuitive truth to this, I'd like to see further distinctions. What
is the difference, for example, between Laura Riding's silence and
Gertrude Stein's? What is the force of that distinction? As for Stein,
she put less fine a point on it in her geographical history of America:
"in this epoch the only real literary thinking has been done by a
woman." Susan
On Wed, 26 Jul 1995, Steve Carll wrote:
> > "It may
> >seem like a betrayal of the few courageous women who are our clear
> >'feminist' ancestors . . . to acknowledge a 'feminine' tradition
> >dominated by males. But it is far worse to deny the presence of the
> >feminine in language (as Ostriker and others do) by missing the fact that
> >the feminine has never been exclusively 'embodied' in female writers."
> >The essay can be found in FEMINIST MEASURES, edited by Lynn Keller and
> >Cristanne Miller (U of Michigan Press). There are problems with the
> >argument--why still call this move "feminine"?--but it is a marvelous
> >antidote to Ostriker et al's essentialism.
>
> Hi Susan--
>
> Just out of curiosity, what would you suggest as an alternative to
> "feminine", assuming as I am that the term "feminine" has instead here been
> dislocated from "femaleness" to suggest a set of attributes possessed by
> both men and women? Or is this a misreading?
>
> Steve
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 10:03:06 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Mark Roberts <mroberts@ISU.USYD.EDU.AU>
Subject: AWOL: August Happenings
Comments: To: Mark Roberts <MRoberts@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU>
August Happenings
Australian Writing OnLine
AWOL Happenings. A monthly guide to readings, book launches, conferences
and other events relating to Australian literature both within Australia
and overseas. If you have any item which you would like included in future
listings please contact AWOL.
AWOL is setting up a 'Virtual Bookshop' for Australian small magazines and
presses. This will take the form of regular newsletters (which will be
available both on the net and by mail and fax) which will pre/review new
publications. This titles will then be able to be ordered by mail or fax.
Associated with our Virtual Bookshop is our Sydney distribution service for
small presses. Please contact us for further details if you want to
distribute your publication to bookshops in Sydney.
AWOL can be contacted by email at MRoberts@extro.ucc.su.oz.au, by writing
to AWOL, PO Box 333, Concord NSW 2137, Australia, by faxing 61 2 747 2802
or by phoning 61 2 747 5667.
AWOL posts are archived on the WWW at the following address
http://www.anatomy.su.oz.au/danny/books/index.html
then click on Australian Writing OnLine.
************************************************************************
NSW
SYDNEY
READINGS
4th Monday of each month...FUTURE POETS SOCIETY 8pm, Lapidary Club Room,
Gymea Bay Road, Gymea. Details phone Anni Featherstone (02) 528 4736.
Every Tuesday...POETRY SUPREME 9pm, Eli's Restaurant, 132 Oxford Street,
Darlinghurst. Details phone/fax (02) 361 0440.
1st and 3rd Wednesday ...POETS UNION 7pm, The Gallery Cafe, 43 Booth
Street, Annandale. Details phone (02) 560 6209.
4th Wednesday...LIVE POETS AT DON BANKS MUSEUM 7.30pm, 6 Napier Street
North Sydney. Guest reader plus open section. Admission $6 includes wine.
Details phone Sue Hicks or Danny Gardiner (02) 908 4527.
Every Thursday...POETRY ALIVE 11am-1pm, Old Courthouse, Bigge Street,
Liverpool. Details phone (02) 607 2541.
1st Friday...EASTERN SUBURBS POETRY GROUP 7.30pm, Everleigh Street,
Waverly. Details phone (02) 389 3041.
2nd & 4th Saturday...GLEEBOOKS READINGS 2pm, Gleebooks, 49 Glebe Point
Road, Glebe. Details Nick Sykes (02) 928 8607.
3rd Sunday...POETRY WITH GLEE: THE POETS UNION AT GLEEBOOKS. 2-4pm, 49
Glebe Point Road, Glebe. Admission $5/$2 Details Nick Sykes (02) 928 8607.
Every Sunday...THE WORD ON SUNDAY 11.30am Museum of Contemporary Art,
Circular Quay. 2 Admission $8/ $5. Details phone (02) 241 5876.
Sunday 30 July at 2.30pm Writers at Macquarie. John Tranter discussing and
reading from his book The Floor of Heaven Macquarie University, Building
X5B Theatre 1 $10 (conc $5). Details and bookings 02 850 9658 or 02 850
7378.
NSW WRITERS' CENTRE EVENTS
WOMEN WRITERS' NETWORK 2nd Wednesday. 7.30pm, NSW Writers' Centre.
Details Ann Davis (02) 716 6869.
FEMINIST & EXPERIMENTAL WRITERS' GROUP meets every second Friday
6.30-9.30pm. Details Margaret Metz (02) 231 8011 or Valerie Williamson for
details of venues.
For information on Queerlit 95, which is being held at the NSW Writers'
Centre, please refer to the conference listing at the end of this document.
Unless otherwise stated all NSW Writers' Centre events are held at the
Centre in Rozelle Hospital Grounds, Rozelle. Enter from Balmain Road
opposite Cecily street and follow the signs.
REGIONAL
ARMIDALE 1st Wednesday 7.30pm, Rumours Cafe in the Mall. Details phone
James Vicars (067) 73 2103.
WOLLONGONG 2nd & 4th Tuesday 7.30pm, Here's Cheers Restaurant, 5 Victoria
Street, Wollongong. Details phone Ian Ryan (042) 84 0645.
LISMORE 3rd Tuesday 8pm. Stand Up Poets, Lismore Club, Club Lane. Details
phone David Hallett (066) 891318.
NEWCASTLE
1st Sunday... Illuminating Tales at the Commonwealth Hotel, Union/ Bull
Streets, Newcastle. Details phone Bill Iden (049) 675 972
3rd Monday... Poetry at the Pub. Newcastle Bowling Club, Watt Street.
Details phone Bill Iden (049) 675 972
WAGGA WAGGA
15 August, 7.00 pm, Firenze Restaurant: Literary Dinner with Michael
Symons, celebrated food writer, restaurateur and social historian. Michael
will speak on the topic "Simplicity and depth". Cost $25 per head for a
three-course meal. Bookings via Dymocks, ph. 069 219622
21 August, 7.30 pm, Booranga Writers' Centre, Charles Sturt University:
Writing Workshop with Michael Symons: "How do you write about food? Can you
write about food?" Cost $12, Members $10. ph (Booranga) 069 332688
General Enquiries: David Gilbey ph 069 332465 Email DGILBEY@whum.riv.csu.edu.au.
*************************************************************************
QUEENSLAND
Queensland Writers Centre Events
Information on Queensland Writers Centre Events will be posted seperately
early next week
CONFERENCES
QUEERLIT 95
QueerLit 95 is the second national (inter- if you count New Zealand)
conference of, and on, queer (gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered, queer,
queered, etc.) writing in Australia and it's happening at: the New South
Wales Writers' Centre in Rozelle Sat. & Sun. 26th - 27th August
It includes presentations, panels and open discussion on everything from
journalistic ethics to academic literary criticism, how-to-get-published to
erotic writing, poetry to book reviewing. Over 300 participants attended
QueerLit 93 and its diversity of content and presenters guarantees at the
least an unpredictable, productive time.
A short fiction competition with over $900.00 of prizes is being run in
conjunction with QueerLit 95, along with the launch of _and that's final_,
a short fiction sequence from Dean Kiley, and _ClitLit_, a new lesbian
literary journal.
Gauche as it is to name names: Dorothy Porter, McKenzie Wark, Gary Dunne,
Jill Jones, Christos Tsialkos, Susan Hawthorne Michael Hurley, Jane
Palfreyman, Peter Blazey, Mark McLeod, someone channeling Patrick White &
several more tempted.
For Schedules, Registration Forms or further detail, contact:
Ian MacNeill on [02] 358 3686
or fax [02] 351 4179 (attention Dean) or email deank@pub.health.su.oz.au
EUROPEAN ASSOCIATION FOR STUDIES ON AUSTRALIA
Third conference: Copenhagen, October 6-9, 1995
Conference theme: Inhabiting Australia: The Australian Habitat and
Australian Settlement.
The conference aims to bring together contributions from a wide range of
disciplines, from architecture to zoology. Papers which take up the theme
from cultural, historical, social, scientific, literary and other
perspectives are invited.
Further information available from Conference organisers:
* Bruce Clunies Ross (45) 35 32 85 82 internet:
bcross@engelsk.ku.dk
* Martin Leer (45) 35 32 85 87 internet:
leer@engelsk.ku.dk
* Merete Borch (45) 35 32 85 84 internet:
borch@engelsk.ku.dk
Copenhagen University, Department of English Njalsgade 80, DK-2300 Kobenhavn S
Phone. (45) 35 32 86 00
Fax (45) 35 32 86 15
* Eva Rask KnudsenWiedeweldtsgade 50, st.
2100 Copenhagen O. (45) 35266025
SYMPOSIUM: (POST) COLONIAL FICTIONS: RE-READING ELIZA FRASER AND THE WRECK
OF THE STIRLING CASTLE.
University of Adelaide, 25-26 Nov., 1995.
Contact: Kay Schaffer, Department of Women's Studies, 08 303 5267 direct,
08 303 3345 FAX, e-mail: kschaffe@arts.adelaide.edu.au
Post-colonial studies within Australia have attempted to re-evaluate and
re- write colonial history to include those people either marginalised or
subjugated by the colonial process. This two day symposium will explore a
different aspect of post-colonial discourse through the exploration of one
of the best known events in Australian colonial history. In 1836 the
'Stirling Castle' was wrecked off the Queensland coast and many of the crew
together with the Captain's wife, Eliza, were marooned on Fraser Island.
Events surrounding the rescue of the castaways, in particular Mrs. Fraser,
received international media attention. In the last 160 years the story of
Eliza Fraser has become the subject of popular myth, fiction, opera, art,
film and scholarly research in the areas of cultural studies, literature,
history, anthropology, archaeology, women's studies, and the visual arts.
(Post) Colonial Fictions will examine critically the Eliza Fraser saga by
bringing together, for the first time, an interdisciplinary team of
academics, authors, artists and members of the Fraser Island community.
Discussions will include feminist analyses of the incident, textual and
iconographic representations of Aboriginal people, and Eliza Fraser as a
creative inspiration for the arts.
Speakers on 19th century ethnography, visual arts, and Fraser Island
history include: Ian Mc Niven, Lynette Russell, Rod McNeil, Olga Miller,
Elaine Brown; on 20th century cultural studies and Batdjala representations
include: Kay Schaffer, Sue Kossew, Jim Davidson, Jude Adams and Fiona
Foley. We are hopeful that the symposium will include an exhibition of
Fiona Foley's works and a performance by University of Adelaide
Conservatorium of Music students of the theatre opera: "Eliza Fraser Sings"
(arranged by Peter Sculthorpe/libretto by Barbara Blackman).
AUSTRALIAN STUDIES AND THE SHRINKING PERIPHERY: SURFING THE NET FOR AUSTRALIA
The Centre for Australian Studies in Wales, University of Wales, Lampeter,
is hosting a conference next year entitled "Australian Studies and the
Shrinking Periphery: Surfing the Net for Australia."
"In recent years the consolidation of Europe into the 15 states of the EU,
the integration of east and west within Europe, and the progressive turning
of Australia to its own Pacific backyard have furthered the impression of
periphery: one world's edge looking distantly at the other."
Organisers are calling for papers.
The contacts are:
Dr Graham Sumner and Dr Andrew Hassam
Centre for Australian Studies in Wales
University of Wales
Lampeter
Dyfed, SA48 7ED,
Wales, UK.
Telephone: Graham Sumner +44 (0) 1570 424760 or 424790 (secretary)
Andrew Hassam +44 (0) 1570 424764 (secretary)
Fax: Graham Sumner +44 (0) 1570 424714
Andrew Hassam +44 (0) 1570 423634
E-mail: sumner@lamp.ac.uk or alh@www.lamp.ac.uk
Offers of papers should reach the organisers by 31 December 1995, and
comprise a full title and an abstract of no more than 100 words.
Further information will be sent when available, and will appear on the
Centre's WWW home-page (htp://www.lamp.ac.uk/oz).
****************************************************************************
While AWOL makes every effort to ensure the accuracy of Happenings listing
we suggest you confirm dates, times and venue.
AWOL would like to thank the following organisation who provided
information for this list:
NSW Writers Centre, Queensland Writers Centre, AusLit discussion group
(internet), WIPround (Women in Publishing) and the other individuals and
organisations who supplied information about their events directly to AWOL.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 15:30:12 -1000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Dr. Seuss on computers (fwd)
What was that about being elitist? Just wanted to pop _that_ bubble for
goodness sake! Gab.
Apologies to original sender/composer, whose name has been lost in the
shuffle...
What if Dr. Seuss Did Technical Training Manuals?
Here's an easy game to play.
Here's an easy thing to say:
If a packet hits a pocket on a socket on a port,
And the bus is interrupted as a very last resort,
And the address of the memory makes your floppy disk abort,
Then the socket packet pocket has an error to report!
If your cursor finds a menu item followed by a dash,
And the double-clicking icon puts your window in the trash,
And your data is corrupted 'cause the index doesn't hash,
Then your situation's hopeless, and your system's gonna crash!
You can't say this?
What a shame, sir!
We'll find you
Another game, sir.
If the label on the cable on the table at your house
Says the network is connected to the button on your mouse,
But your packets want to tunnel on another protocol
That's repeatedly rejected by the printer down the hall,
And your screen is all distorted by the side effects of gauss
So your icons in the window are as wavy as a souse,
Then you may as well reboot and go out with a bang,
'Cause as sure as I'm a poet, the sucker's gonna hang!
When the copy of your floppy's getting sloppy on the disk,
And the microcode instructions cause unnecessary risc,
Then you have to flash your memory and you'll want to RAM your ROM,
Quickly turn off the computer and be sure to tell your mom!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 13:51:50 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Wystan Curnow <w.curnow@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland
Subject: Re: Free Verse Foot
Comments: To: kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU
Dear Burt,
If we could only pull up our subject positions and coalesce
around a warm discourse, make-or fabricate if you must--a few clumsy
adjustments to those self-same subject positions then we just might find
ourselves lovers of jargon after all. Certainly I'd have to class myself as
one such. Jargon? Can't get enuf of the stuff.
yrs Wystan
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 16:26:13 -1000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@HAWAII.EDU>
Hello all. Anyone in England know Wendy Mulford? Still trying to track
down Madge Herron. Or Helen Kidd, Julia Mishkin or Sandi Russell? How
to get in touch with them?
Gabrielle
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 23:10:51 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rod Smith <AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: renga norms
another possibility wld be for people to post only one line w/out the text to
which they were responding, from which a variety of texts cld be made. i.e.
there wld be as many rengas as participants if it went on long enough.
this is why I originally posted a line w/out the preceding line-- I thought
we were going that way. Seems the easiest way to approximate hypertext in
this format. Though what's happening with the other permutations is good as
well.
--Rod
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 23:22:50 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rod Smith <AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Renga 1
>In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
>And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
>The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud
Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 03:57:08 EDT
Reply-To: beard@metdp1.met.co.nz
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: beard@MET.CO.NZ
Subject: Re: Renga1
> >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
> >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
>Solemn air and sabbath retrograde
>Why: these dots in the race when dreamt, did birds
curl between two bodies / of water, falling awake
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 04:24:53 EDT
Reply-To: beard@metdp1.met.co.nz
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: beard@MET.CO.NZ
Subject: Eliot & Stein
> maria---eliot meant it negatively--but I got it from Riding's essay
> on "stein and the new barbarsm"---SHE meant it positively-- but the
> recognition of course on Eliot's part (Stein=Saxophone) makes me
> wonder whether "eliot was of the devil
> 's part without knowing it"--I mean devil positively, btw....chris
It's difficult to tell when Eliot's being positive & when he's being negative.
I read somewhere that when he first wrote of Stravinsky's music that it was
like "horns and motors" he meant it positively (& I know that he was, or at
least became, a Stravinsky fan), but my reading of that phrase in _The
Waste Land_ is negative, due to the implied comparison with "times winghd
chariot".
Just a thought,
Tom.
______________________________________________________________________________
I/am a background/process, shrunk to an icon. | Tom Beard
I am/a dark place. | beard@metdp1.met.co.nz
I am less/than the sum of my parts... | Auckland, New Zealand
I am necessary/but not sufficient, | http://metcon.met.co.nz/
and I shall teach the stars to fall | nwfc/beard/www/hallway.html
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 22:46:35 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steve Carll <sjcarll@SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: the feminine
>Steve--yes, this is the question, isn't it? I think your reading is
>entirely right; my problem, in the context of this article by Retallack,
>is that "the feminine" is defined as/through "silence." While there's
>real intuitive truth to this, I'd like to see further distinctions. What
>is the difference, for example, between Laura Riding's silence and
>Gertrude Stein's? What is the force of that distinction? As for Stein,
>she put less fine a point on it in her geographical history of America:
>"in this epoch the only real literary thinking has been done by a
>woman." Susan
Right, which is a statement with a masculine aggressiveness to it, which
moves it back toward the other end of the spectrum. Hmm. You're right, it
takes quite a bit of rigor to track a lot of these questions through the
slippery landscape of gender, and only a few have really successfully
negotiated it. And language seems to engender itself, which complicates
things that much more.
Steve
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 02:20:44 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@ALBNYVMS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: beowulf (willa jargon)
Dear Burt K.--Well, first I don't BELIEVE you when you say you can't
imagine someone saying "subject position" while "making love"--
but as for Caedmon's HYMN--there IS No original, with the music--
I mean MAYBE Caedmon had a great voice and was a Bob Dylan or P.J.
Harvey or something. What WE DO KNOW, however, is that the "text"
(stripped of its music) has circulated beyond mere medievalist
"circles" and has taken on an institutional life of its own as a
version of "the thing itself" in vulgar official narratives of
HISTORY OF ENGLISH LIT (just as "the ballad" is called a "hybrid
form--neither music nor poetry" but this is only true from a
certain perspective of what literature is, or has been, only with
the advent of the printing press, etc.)---And, because the version
we have (whether debased or not) has been accorded a privileged position
as if AT THE BEGINNING of a tradition, it is worthwhile perhaps to
consider the conception of "the lyric" that is implicitly justified
by Caedmon (for instance, "christian"; for instance, "Confessional"--
for instance "poet as rebel-turned-seer; or rudolph the rednosed
reindeer). I am not arguing that these "myths" do not have a place
in poetry, and even haunt the most radical poetry that inevitably,
at one point or another, places itself in some kind of relation to
this voice (be it Shakespeare or Stein or O'Hara or L Poets), only
to recognize the way the text continues to be used in undergraduate
survey courses (if nowhere else) which, to me, seems to matter more
than some hypothetical reconstruction of the TRUE SPLENDOURS of the
past that may very well be the present in drag. Thanks for taking
this seriously, chris
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 09:12:12 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: the feminine
In message <199507280546.WAA06311@slip-1.slip.net> UB Poetics discussion group
writes:
> >Steve--yes, this is the question, isn't it? I think your reading is
> >entirely right; my problem, in the context of this article by Retallack,
> >is that "the feminine" is defined as/through "silence." While there's
> >real intuitive truth to this, I'd like to see further distinctions. What
> >is the difference, for example, between Laura Riding's silence and
> >Gertrude Stein's? What is the force of that distinction? As for Stein,
> >she put less fine a point on it in her geographical history of America:
> >"in this epoch the only real literary thinking has been done by a
> >woman." Susan
>
> Right, which is a statement with a masculine aggressiveness to it, which
> moves it back toward the other end of the spectrum. Hmm. You're right, it
> takes quite a bit of rigor to track a lot of these questions through the
> slippery landscape of gender, and only a few have really successfully
> negotiated it. And language seems to engender itself, which complicates
> things that much more.
>
> Steve
i was trying to stay out of this one, cuz it seemed too volatile, and more
complex than i can muster my forces for at those odd itchy moments when i hit
the keyboard, but when i read "masculine aggressiveness," i feel compelled to
enter. these denominations, "feminine" and "masculine," it seems, are simply
ways of noting --or creating --difference. masculinity is associated w/
aggression, femininity with docility or gentleness, without much thoughtful
attention to the empirical world. it's just a crude shorthand for perceived
opposition. i can be as aggressive as the next guy which doesn't mean i'm
invoking a "masculine" side of myself. i can be warm on occasion, even demur,
which doesn't mean that i'm being "feminine" in those instances. can we find
some other way of referring to affect and behavior without calling on facile
gender categories to do our thinking for us? and i'm not sure "language"
engenders itself --people do --i think language is smarter than people, and can
help us find a way out of this binary impasse.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 10:38:17 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jordan Davis." <Jordan70@AOL.COM>
Subject: green technologies
Chris
I'm still unconvinced that ED's "top-of-the-head to you" means anything more
than a threshold of feeling a text has to pass to be considered "poetry" by
ED. (Tim Davis, also of Amherst, loves to report ED's epitaph: "Called
Back"). And I don't know if a Dickinson/Whitman dichotomy for epic/lyric (ha)
introduces any new rules--"magic is a joke you pay cash for"E. Denby.
As for the great divide my train created in response to M Boughn:
the divide between Olson's famous people "for whom everything
matters"--meaning meaning--and lucky us. That is. Pound watching the cantos
fragment around him and Olson thinking it's possible to hold all of
_something_ together (wrong). Then us. (And we go off with the words meaning
something ((at best, some pretty nothing--at worst, malicious or banal))
through us instead of our having them riemann-sum-up our
"meaning"--psychology-- or, we look at the interstitial writers as somehow
_holy_, to be quoted and _understood_--religio). In the face of it I'd rather
be, what, baroque? Clear? So it seems to me that Creeley's Olson (U Cal
Selected) is an attempt to take the Olson of meaning and present an Olson
through whom meaning happens... and yes Olson was on both sides of that issue
too. That is, Mike, I think something changed.
just talking,
Jordan
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 11:16:24 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jordan Davis." <Jordan70@AOL.COM>
Subject: natl poetry month is april
the summer 96 fashion shows are in full swing and
we should start talking about april, which
Farrar Straus Giroux and the Academy of American Poets
and I think the Poetry Society of America
are proclaiming national poetry book month.
Bookstores will be supplied with kiosks and displays
to I think J Galassi said in a closed meeting
move the slower titles on the backlists
of major publishers of poetry. Now. We need
to co-opt this if we can. We should assemble a list
of addresses of small bookstores and names
of buyers for the bigger chains, and if at all possible
we should prepare some kind of small press packet
to make the case that the real activity in poetry
is only _marginally_ going on at the big houses
If this doesn't seem to "let's-put-on-a-show"
I'll compile the bookstore address list
backchannel--send me the names and addresses
and those on the list with any "pull" might
investigate the possibility of getting a small press
liaison on the poetry month committee
so the backlists of Roof, United Artists, Leave
et cetera can get in the publicity packets
again this may be totally naive
however I'd like to go without cringing
past what bookstores remain next April
I didn't read this much for my children
and cousins to think Dr. Williams means
C.K. (no offense Mr. Williams)
Jordan
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 11:25:13 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Blair Seagram <blairsea@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Studio space
I know it's a long shot, but if anyone out there living in Manhattan or
Brooklyn, knows of cheap studio space, I'm talking $250 to $300 a month,
please backchannel me. It could be a share. I'm not working in my studio
much these days, but would like to keep the option open and need a place to
put my work.
FYI. I'm part of a group of artists in a building on 42nd Street which is
being demolished by the city and state of New York, to make way for
Disney's grand entrance onto 42nd, the new suburban playground for out of
towners.
keep cool
blair
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 10:49:44 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Renga, Renga, Renga
In-Reply-To: <199507280749.AAA21868@sparta.SJSU.EDU>
a basic feature of the Rnga is supposed to be, as Jacques Roubaud neatly
summarized it, that the links (composed of 2 & 3 line sections) follow a
syallbic count, and that "any given link of the renga must form a poem
along with that which precedes it and this poem must be different from
that which it forms with the link which follows it." The new rules
proposed in recent postings are in the tradition of proliferating
"binding" rules from the 14th century on. What we have going, & perhaps
the medium made this inevitable, is something quite different, though no
less intriguing. I wouldn't call it a "wronga" -- but maybe we should
give it a name of our own devising that might cause less confusion. It's
clearly a ringer.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 11:46:05 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: the feminine, the troubled axis
maria damon writes:
>i was trying to stay out of this one, cuz it seemed too volatile, and more
>complex than i can muster my forces for at those odd itchy moments when i hit
>the keyboard
I second the wisdom of keeping out of this one, Maria, but I was reading
something yesterday that seemed to fit in here. Quoting someone else is a
way of keeping out of this, don't you think?
It's Mary Russo in *The Female Grotesque* (Routledge, 1995) writing about
Michael Balint:
In his remarks on the circus act and funfairs, however, he includes female
figures in the aerial act or in the "primitive" sideshows as essential
"showpieces":
"One type of showpiece is either the beautiful, attractive women, or
frightening , odd, and strange females; the other type is powerful,
boasting, challenging men. Simplified to bare essentials, practically all
stage plays or novels, however highbrow, are still concerned with these
three kinds of human ingredients."
His shifting syntax here suggests that both the "beautiful, attractive" and
the "odd and strange" female finally belongs to the same "type." But are
there two types or are there three, since they separate out into "three
kinds of human ingredients? Here, indeed, is the sex that is not one! In
that part of the twin category of the female/woman that includes the
"frightening, odd, and strange *females*," one assumes the presence of
freaks and other grotesque curiosities who produce in the viewer a certain
state of ambivalent *dis*traction which is somehow involved or transformed
in the attraction of the other "*women*" (emphasis mine). The proximity of
female grotesques to their attractive counterparts has a long history in
the typology of Western art and theater, especially comedy, in which the
whorish matron, the crone, the ugly stepsisters, and the nurse are brought
onstage for comparison and then dismissal.
Conceptually, the disjuncture between the relationship of the two (male and
female) and the three (male and two female) categories provides a space of
differentiation between women which is covered over in the dominant
fictions of gender and heterosexuality. Teresa de Lauretis has written
eloquently of the "in-difference" of much contemporary critical discourse,
including feminist criticism, to those sexual differences which cannot be
contained within or placed definitively outside the heterosexually presumed
oppositional difference of male to female. These "eccentric subjects"
occupy a position in what she designates, following film theory, as a
"space-off," the "space not visible in the frame but inferable from what
the frame makes visible." De Lauretis sees this as an existing
"else-where" produced by and in representational practices and by what they
leave out or cannot represent; she also sees it as "a theoretical condition
of possibility" for feminism, defined as a heterogeneous and contradictory
process, rather than (as its critics and some of its friends would have it)
a finished product built along an untroubled axis of gender (perhaps this
"finished feminism" is somewhere so simple, but nowhere I have been).
The Female Grotesque, pp. 39-40
This is a mere drop of complexity. As I was saying, I'm keeping out of
this one--I'm just sitting here typing, a secretary/transchanneler like
Mina Harker.
Dodie Bellamy
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 14:46:59 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@ALBNYVMS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Studio space
Blair--I tried to contact you backchannnel about some longshot
possibilities--friends in Brooklyn, etc--but it bounced back to
me....backchannel me, Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 15:01:31 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: rereading
In-Reply-To: <950727134120_124297859@aol.com> from "Jordan Davis." at Jul 27,
95 01:41:50 pm
I have been rereading George Stanley's _The Stick,_ persuaded that he
was those 2 decades ago, writing the sweetest cadence hereabouts. One
also hears there some authentic poems about work.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 15:51:18 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Reginald Johanson <reginalj@SFU.CA>
Subject: herb and george
Don't forget the great poems of Mingus, the best of the lot. There is
a great CD called "weird nightmare"--collecting Mingus covers and
readings by Robbie Robertson, Henry Rollins and more.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 19:48:38 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Kellogg <kellogg@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>
Subject: "Believe"?
This belief in poetry conversation has, well, rather elided the question
of "belief." What does it mean to "believe" in poetry -- how similar is
it to other forms of belief? I for one wish Burt hadn't backed away from
his original loaded statement. If we take "belief" in Pierre Bourdieu's
sense of a "circle of belief" which constructs simultaneously the object
(poetry) and the value of the object, then none of us are likely to be
OUTSIDE that circle of belief insofar as we're having this conversation in
the first place. On the other hand, it's worth questioning our own
role(s) in perpetuating a belief-circle which constructs our own position
in it, goes on happily with or without our participation, and has effects
we can't really control. As in: I believe I'm in a nation-state, yet do
I believe IN it?
Cheers,
David
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Kellogg The moment is at hand.
University Writing Program Take one another
Duke University and eat.
Durham, NC 27708
kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 19:54:03 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Kellogg <kellogg@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Free Verse Foot
In-Reply-To: <00993FC5.CC9F45BE.100@admin.njit.edu>
On Thu, 27 Jul 1995, Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT wrote:
> Anyway, what this all boils down to is, that, frankly, I can't imagine, say,
> two people making love and using the term "subject-position" in their conver-
> sation (let's presume that some people talk while they make love_. I.e.,
> it feels and therefore in some sense it is, unnatural. But I guess what we
> feel is natural changes?
You need to go back and read that Harry Mathews sestina (I forget the
title) in Armenian papers in which the repeating words are:
Marxism-Leninism, sexism, fascism, racism, militarism, and -- oh I
forget.
Cheers,
David
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Kellogg The moment is at hand.
University Writing Program Take one another
Duke University and eat.
Durham, NC 27708
kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 17:47:12 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kit Robinson <krobinson@BANDO.COM>
Subject: Renga
Subject: Time: 5:48 PM
OFFICE MEMO Renga Date: 7/28/95
In the books were dreams and in those dreams, books
They flew through windows, one light green and fine morning
First invented by the whistle of a cardinal in the popular
Solemn air and sabbath retrograde amalgam. . .
Why these dots? in the race with dreams, dead birds
Flew into the words inverted, sabbath, race, in, whistle, window,
And retrograde, as many forms of sap coming unglued. Chalk salt
We are feeling very good and undid the lumber
Spotted 72 King Penguins (No's 32, 33 and 66 missing). Let's see
That's lines 10, clouds none. My mouse squeaks, does yours?
Kit Robinson
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 22:00:14 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: the feminine
Susan,
You are of course aware of the recently edited and now published
twelfth-century french romance titled "silence," which was written by
a woman and which has now received an enormous amount of critical
attention (including a recent article in PMLA)?
Burt
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 23:26:27 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Thomas Bell <tbjn@WELL.COM>
Subject: rengaro [Cth
>In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
>And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
>First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
>The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud
>Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds
Disperate literary melds sweet songs
Bada Shanren
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 00:13:23 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Sheila E. Murphy" <semurphy@INDIRECT.COM>
Subject: Re: Renga 1
>>In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
>>And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
>>The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud
>Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds
The caravan of windows to what they flee
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 05:06:32 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ken Edwards <100344.2546@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Info on UK poets
In response to Gabrielle Welford:
My collaborator on Reality Street Editions, Wendy Mulford, can be contacted at 6
Benhall Green, Benhall, Saxmundham IP17 1HU, UK. No email address: Wendy's a bit
of a technophobe. And she's away during most of August. Incidentally, check out
the RSE online catalogue at the Electronic Poetry centre for news of new and
upcoming titles, including a big anthology of women
language-centred/experimental poets, edited by Maggie O'Sullivan.
Helen Kidd is at 56 Beech Crescent, Kidlington, nr Oxford OX5 1DP, UK. I don't
have addresses for Julia Mishkin or Sandi Russell, but Wendy or Helen may have.
-Ken
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 07:33:52 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: beowulf (willa jargon)
Chris,
Hey, I love to do some anthology bashing, from time to time, too. And indeed
I agree with you. As for music, of course there is a Music per se that must
accompany a poem like the Hymn. And there is also the "music" when the poem
is spoken, rather than sung or chanted. I recently attended a performance of
Beowulf done with instruments that we think were of the sort that the
typical OE sceop used--constructed by some medieval instrument makers
and musicologists based on two rather co-synchronous instruments, one
found at Sutton Hoo and another in Germany (I forget where). The combination
of chanting and singing and speaking, of picking and strumming etc. on the
harp, as well as the physical gestures of the performer who delivered
Beowulf, was revelatory. I walked out of that auditorium feeling that for
the first time I had come in contact with the Anglo-Saxon sensibility, and
that until that evening I did not really UNDERTSTAND what OE verse was
about. Performance was so important to it. Anyway, if I have a point here,
it is that OE poetry and Old Japanese poetry, if experienced in full,
which would perhaps include music and dramatic reading, would be very different.
Best,
Burt
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 07:42:44 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: "Believe"?
David,
As I am writing this, it is too early in the morning, having just gotten up
and thought to get some e-mail out of the way to clean out my buffer before
going camping, I feel that I don't believe in anything. But that's the story.
By tonight I will believe deeply, in something.
Anyway, please forgive my backing away again. But I did want to acknowledge
your serious response. And I want very much to talk about belief and hope to
do so after today. I also want to learn more about the "circle of belief"
you mention.
let me only add here, at the risk of being really corny, that for a long
time i have thought that i would title my next book of poems "Belief."
And that it seems to me that our society feels more and more that belief
is something people are not capable of. And that Yeats' line, "the
best lack all conviction . . ." continues to reverberate for me.
When I write poetry I feel that I believe (this has nothing to do with
whether the poem is any good esthetically and/or intellectually).
Anyway, I would love to hear what others have to say about belief.
Is belief, much in the way some people see love as a product of hormone
secretions, just a matter of getting the body in gear?
just kidding (i think).
Burt
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 04:43:16 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re Re Renga
>In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
>In the crooks were nannies and in the nannies began responsibilities.
>And desire. To which, Mr Stanley, to wit, "Mistah Bowering, he...
>suffers himself too much, perhaps a small tango would permit
him the opporuntity to advance (too much apricot in the tea
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 04:48:46 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Renga 3
In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books
That cooks would look to in the hope of
many forms of soup comingled (miso-plum puree, chalk-salt,
stewed pigeons). Outside, the sheep dogs barking,
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 04:50:52 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Renga1
In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
Solemn air and sabbath retrograde
Why: these dots in the race when dreamt, did birds
Flitter high over the stadium, the lights
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 04:52:17 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Renga1
In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
Solemn air and sabbath retrograde
Why: these dots in the race when dreamt, did birds
in flew inverted sabbath race in whistle window retrograde
until the books were broth again, steaming, onions bobbing
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 04:53:40 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Renga1
In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
Solemn air and sabbath retrograde
Why: these dots in the race when dreamt, did birds
in flew inverted sabbath race in whistle window retrograde
We are feeling very good indeed among the lumber,
The bat corked and me cousin also
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 04:55:52 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Renga 1
New renga rule: every fourth line must include the word "cloud"
In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud
The back hoe scraping out the hillside (smell of hot tar)
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 04:57:20 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Renga1
In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
Solemn air and sabbath retrograde
Why: these dots in the race when dreamt, did birds
in flew inverted sabbath race in whistle window retrograde
many forms of soup comingled (miso-plum puree, chalk-salt
We are feeling very good indeed among the lumber
Spotted 72 King Penguins (No's 32, 33 and 66 missing)
Amid the waitrons, the glare off your dark glasses
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 04:58:41 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Renga 1
every fifth line must preceed the first:
Before alive and bled by law>
In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud
Forth on the godly sea, Circes this craft, the trim-coiffed
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 05:01:38 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Renga 1
In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud
Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds
The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 05:03:38 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Renga
In the books were dreams and in those dreams, books
They flew through windows, one light green and fine morning
First invented by the whistle of a cardinal in the popular
Solemn air and sabbath retrograde amalgam. . .
Why these dots? in the race with dreams, dead birds
Flew into the words inverted, sabbath, race, in, whistle, window,
And retrograde, as many forms of sap coming unglued. Chalk salt
We are feeling very good and undid the lumber
Spotted 72 King Penguins (No's 32, 33 and 66 missing). Let's see
That's lines 10, clouds none. My mouse squeaks, does yours?
Kit Robinson, all elbows under the basket, rebounds well, gadzooks!
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 05:05:00 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: rengaro [Cth
In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud
Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds
Disperate literary melds sweet songs
Together into a paste (rather like overdone eggplant)
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 05:06:45 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Renga 1
In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud
Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds
The caravan of windows to what they flee
These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 11:55:15 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jorge Guitart <MLLJORGE@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Organization: University at Buffalo
Subject: open mike
A DATE WITH JUDY
(long)
episodes in parentheses
abort earnest original
the curry array readied
the town was a dune i drowse & they drop
the foreigner showed me the door to the ford
reckon a rake with rank will interrogate you grissly grime &
christmas cream
the ancestor receded cited telekinesis at the behest of the resuscitated
concerning excrement decree
myopia the window the eye of the daisy walleyed pinochle &
something ocular an autopsy
the speed of despair prospered
i shared the shards at the carnival
officinal manure in copious copy it is your opus
cognition is notorius
my kith & kin a gnome with agnosia abnormal & enormous
cunning but acquainted with the quaint swami swain
an idiot a suicide janitor in trance in january
glasnost call my cock
didn't care a deuce about diplomas these are duplicates
gents, germinal got her pregnant
kringle was in gingerly & indigenous a naive renaissance in
kindergarten wrinkles & wreaths worry
rubato the bereaved rubles
comity a mirage a marvel smirk
a butter tumor
agraphia programs epigraph crayfish a keel & chilled jelly
congealed subdued & educated duchess deduces conduct & is
abducted
erect a surge the right anorectic chose ragout
zloty yellow krishnas gold pencilled penicilin for penis
humus humbled bridegroom who was inhumed
an acrobat & a diabetic a souvenir of the juggernaut ought to
freight the surplus folk
fere on the porch how did you fare
when they ferried the fuhrer of import/export
[end of file]
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 09:05:24 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Another Saturday Night
In-Reply-To: <199507290358.UAA02332@sparta.SJSU.EDU>
Maria can demur with the best of them; nothing demure about it!
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 12:13:39 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rod Smith <AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Renga 1
every fifth line must preceed the first:
Before alive and bled by law>
In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud
Forth on the godly sea, Circes this craft, the trim-coiffed
Pineapple salesperson-- like a fixed drone-- "peeking"
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 12:20:44 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rod Smith <AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Renga1
In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
Solemn air and sabbath retrograde
Why: these dots in the race when dreamt, did birds
in flew inverted sabbath race in whistle window retrograde
We are feeling very good indeed among the lumber,
The bat corked and me cousin also
Uncorked, calmly asking for __The Curse of the Red Seal__
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 09:41:22 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Thomas Bell <tbjn@WELL.COM>
Subject: Re: Re Re Renga
>In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
>In the crooks were nannies and in the nannies began responsibilities.
>And desire. To which, Mr Stanley, to wit, "Mistah Bowering, he...
>suffers himself too much, perhaps a small tango would permit
>him the opporuntity to advance (too much apricot in the tea
let s/he without word in cast the sinker
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 10:26:23 -1000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: Info on UK poets
In-Reply-To: <950729090632_100344.2546_EHQ82-1@CompuServe.COM>
Thanks to all who sent me the address for Wendy Mulford. Maybe I'll be
able to get in touch with Madge Herron yet. Gabrielle
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 10:35:42 -1000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: Renga1
In-Reply-To: <199507291157.EAA07390@ix5.ix.netcom.com>
On Sat, 29 Jul 1995, Ron Silliman wrote:
> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
> Solemn air and sabbath retrograde
> Why: these dots in the race when dreamt, did birds
> in flew inverted sabbath race in whistle window retrograde
> many forms of soup comingled (miso-plum puree, chalk-salt
> We are feeling very good indeed among the lumber
> Spotted 72 King Penguins (No's 32, 33 and 66 missing)
> Amid the waitrons, the glare off your dark glasses
> went follow my birding instinct
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 18:16:21 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steve Carll <sjcarll@SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: the feminine
>i was trying to stay out of this one, cuz it seemed too volatile, and more
>complex than i can muster my forces for at those odd itchy moments when i hit
>the keyboard, but when i read "masculine aggressiveness," i feel compelled to
>enter. these denominations, "feminine" and "masculine," it seems, are simply
>ways of noting --or creating --difference. masculinity is associated w/
>aggression, femininity with docility or gentleness, without much thoughtful
>attention to the empirical world. it's just a crude shorthand for perceived
>opposition. i can be as aggressive as the next guy which doesn't mean i'm
>invoking a "masculine" side of myself. i can be warm on occasion, even demur,
>which doesn't mean that i'm being "feminine" in those instances. can we find
>some other way of referring to affect and behavior without calling on facile
>gender categories to do our thinking for us? and i'm not sure "language"
>engenders itself --people do --i think language is smarter than people, and can
>help us find a way out of this binary impasse.
Hi Maria:
OK, you vote to scrap the terms altogether. Our other options are:
1. To keep them but divorce them from gender altogether (as yin and yang
originally referred not to gender but to the mossy unmossy side of a tree).
This is what I was trying to get to, and I didn't quite make it in my post,
which is what riled you, I think.
2. To keep them in a concept of gender but to expand beyond a binary
opposition of genders (I just read an article last month in the S.F. Bay
Guardian [I believe; maybe it was the Weekly] about certain geneticists who
believe that, biologically speaking, there are perhaps 5 human genders, and
Dodie's quoted material seems to me to dovetail with this notion in more
ontological terms.
3. Forget the whole thing and go back to our caves.
I don't know which one is the best choice: I would hope it's not 3, but I
have a sinking feeling it is. All I can say again is: this stuff is
tricky; we're all going to get confused, but I think it's important enough
to risk saying dumb things in good faith and to assume good faith and try to
help each other figure stuff out.
Steve
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 18:39:57 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steve Carll <sjcarll@SLIP.NET>
Subject: Announcing Antenym #7
Comments: cc: knida@aol.com, eric_skiles@sedgus.com, scott@aps.anl.gov,
mbates@stocko.com, 6500dtpt@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu
Hi everyone--I'd like to announce the arrival of Antenym 7, a 50-page
magazine with work by George Albon, Michael Basinski, Charles Borkhuis,
Brian Boury, Kristin Burkart, Steve Carll, Carol Ciavonne, Norma Cole, Jean
Day, Larry Eigner, Bob Heman, Andrew Joron, M. Kettner, Colleen Lookingbill,
Sheila E. Murphy, John Olson, Michael Price, I.E. Skin, John Taggart,
Darlene Tate, and J.R. Willems.
It's $2 plus $1.50 for postage. Checks payable to Steve Carll. Barter for
lit journals, chapbooks, etc. OK. The address is 106 Fair Oaks St.#3,
S.F., CA 94110-2951. Subscription rate is $10.50 per year (3 issues).
Publication parties/contributors' readings, in case you're around:
Monday August 21 Mudd's Cafe, 1436 Mendocino Ave. Santa Rosa 8:00 pm
Saturday August 26 111 Minna St. Gallery @ 2nd St. San Francisco 2:00 pm
Invitation to submit:
Anyone on this list is encouraged to send me stuff to consider for future
issues of Antenym. I'm interested in ontological exploration and the
relationships between Being, language and beings; meditation and meditations
on essence, and related considerations.
Thanks!
Steve Carll
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 21:48:21 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Lisa Samuels <lsr3h@DARWIN.CLAS.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Subject: Re: "Believe"?
In-Reply-To: <0099410F.5B0EBCAE.1@admin.njit.edu> from "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT"
at Jul 29, 95 07:42:44 am
dear Burt Kimmelman,
you said you are interested in what others have to say about
belief. so: for me, it does not detract from the reality of
love or belief to say that consciousness is physical. when i
was a christian, i felt the presence of some amalgam of the
trinity as a core physical shock. i have since thought i
understood what Emily was talking about, the top of the head
coming off, since that's what happened in the most fervent
prayer, speaking in tongues. now, writing a poem and feeling
the thick of love are the two experiences that make me believe
in them, belief as experience rather than external reference.
so those are the two things i believe in: love and the power of
language.
Lisa Samuels
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 22:21:38 +0000
Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <jzitt@bga.com>
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@HUMANSYSTEMS.COM>
Organization: HumanSystems
Subject: Re Re Renga
Comments: To: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
On 29 Jul 95 at 4:43, Ron Silliman wrote:
> >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
> >In the crooks were nannies and in the nannies began responsibilities.
> >And desire. To which, Mr Stanley, to wit, "Mistah Bowering, he...
> >suffers himself too much, perhaps a small tango would permit
> him the opporuntity to advance (too much apricot in the tea
echoes astronaut powder memory, rondo, flight of childhood dance
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/ Online Representative, Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 22:21:44 +0000
Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <jzitt@bga.com>
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@HUMANSYSTEMS.COM>
Organization: HumanSystems
Subject: Re: Renga 1
Comments: To: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
On 29 Jul 95 at 5:06, Ron Silliman wrote:
> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud
> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds
> The caravan of windows to what they flee
> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more
Power to the spider, virtuous in act if not intent
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/ Online Representative, Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 22:51:24 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Thomas Bell <tbjn@WELL.COM>
Subject: Re: Renga1
>In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
>And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
>First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
>Solemn air and sabbath retrograde
>Why: these dots in the race when dreamt, did birds
>in flew inverted sabbath race in whistle window retrograde
>We are feeling very good indeed among the lumber,
>The bat corked and me cousin also
>Uncorked, calmly asking for __The Curse of the Red Seal__
The rain in pain. Morphine morphs mestasisize
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 05:59:44 CDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Alexander <mcba@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: what does not change
7/29/85: I sent the following yesterday morning and again last night, but
it was bounced back to me. I also asked someone to forward it for me, so I
apologize it it makes it tot he list twice. Hopefully it will make it once.
--charles
Here's a personal note which perhaps has no place here, but I'm going to
inject it anyway. It's particularly for friends (Ron, Charles, Tom, Hank
Spencer, Kevin, Dodie, Maria, Joel, Bill, Juliana, Linda, Bob, Sandra, and
there are more, including lurkers I don't know about and probably some who
aren't on the list anymore).
As of July 31 I am no longer executive director of Minnesota Center for
Book Arts. The parting of the ways is something I understand and in some
ways brought on because of how central I believe artistic leadership is to
arts organizations, but it's also something I'm not entirely pleased about
as I float between "free at last" and "where am I?," knowing full well you
can't have one without the other.
I am pleased with many things accomplished there, including developing a
literary mission within/among the book arts there, making the place
considerably more open to women (yes, there is an "old boy printer's
network") and artists/programs of diverse natures in many ways, making it
embrace a wider sense of what the printed book might mean, and involving it
more with theoretical discussions of art and culture. Also several specific
things, like the Art & Language symposium, visits by Johanna Drucker, Brad
Freeman, Amos Paul Kennedy, Kathleen Fraser, Spencer Selby (Gary Sullivan &
Marta Deike brought him, but we were happy to host him), and upcoming ones
by Mei-Mei Berssenbrugge & Myung Mi Kim, among others, and this doesn't
include the 14 writers/artists/critics who were part of the Art & Language
symposium and who include participants on this list. Also publications like
the one on press right now which is a collaged language/visual meditation
with many sculptural dimensions, and an upcoming book of essays called
Talking the Boundless Book (Linda, your & Toshiki's contribution IS now
going to be part of that book, and a few others on this list, I believe,
already know that your work is part of the book as well -- I'll post
another announcement about this book in a few weeks).
But this is not to blow the center's or my horn, just to hope that such
activities continue and that people on this list find ways to keep up with
them if they do. It's been quite a two year ride and my main regret is not
having the budget or support to do quite a bit more in terms of widening
and sharpening the focus.
And to announce that Chax Press will become quite a bit
more active once again (more about that in a post in a few weeks), and that
at this time we have no plans to move, although it will be a subject of
discussion, and the southwestern light Cynthia and I spent so many good
years in up until two years ago still is something greatly missed.
We will be away at a cabin on a lake in northern Wisconsin for a week,
beginning Sunday, and I am going to set poetics, as of this morning, on
"nomail," so please send any personal messages to my direct e-mail
addressfor the next eight days, mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu. That address will
remain main for quite a while, and I'll notify various people, and
re-subscribe to poetics, if it changes.
Thanks to all here for making this a part of my time at book arts the last
couple of years, and for putting up with my mixing up poetics & the book
arts now & then.
love,
charles
charles alexander [===========^^============]
[ <> ]
chax press [ maybe a <> pages ]
[ time <> letters ]
phone & fax: 612-721-6063 [ upon <> frames ]
[ once <> motion ]
e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu [ <> ]
[===========vv============]
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 06:07:17 CDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Alexander <mcba@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: where are you?
Sorry for this, but is Joel Kuszai listening or does anyone know where he
is? I gave my card with your address to my daughter to write you a letter,
and now I can't find it. And directory assistance doesn't have your phone
number, and my e-mail got bounced back to me. So if you're reading this
message, please write a note back. Or if anyone else has an address or
phone for Joel, please send it to me at my direct e-mail address (I so much
prefer the term "direct contact" or "one-to-one correspondence" to "back
channel," which sounds like something subversive or gossipy) as I will have
poetics set on "nomail" for the next six or so days during which I'll be
away. That address is mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu
thanks,
charles
charles alexander [===========^^============]
[ <> ]
chax press [ maybe a <> pages ]
[ time <> letters ]
phone & fax: 612-721-6063 [ upon <> frames ]
[ once <> motion ]
e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu [ <> ]
[===========vv============]
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 07:34:50 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jorge Guitart <MLLJORGE@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Renga1
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950729103430.4232F-100000@uhunix4.its.Hawaii.Edu>
On Sat, 29 Jul 1995, Gabrielle Welford wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Jul 1995, Ron Silliman wrote:
>
> > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
> > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
> > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
> > Solemn air and sabbath retrograde
> > Why: these dots in the race when dreamt, did birds
> > in flew inverted sabbath race in whistle window retrograde
> > many forms of soup comingled (miso-plum puree, chalk-salt
> > We are feeling very good indeed among the lumber
> > Spotted 72 King Penguins (No's 32, 33 and 66 missing)
> > Amid the waitrons, the glare off your dark glasses
> > went follow my birding instinct
booksy when mostly feelinged or brain necked
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 09:00:13 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: forward from charles alexander
Here is the message I'd love you to read and forward to poetics.
I would be forever in your debt. It's just that I want others to hear what
my current situation is before they hear it either through the grapevine or
from my ex-employers. Thank you.
Message begins here:
Here's a personal note which perhaps has no place here, but I'm going to
inject it anyway. It's particularly for friends (Ron, Charles, Tom, Hank,
Spencer, Kevin, Dodie, Maria, Joel, Bill, Juliana, Linda, Bob, Sandra, and
there are more, including lurkers I don't know about and probably some who
aren't on the list anymore).
As of July 31 I am no longer executive director of Minnesota Center for
Book Arts. The parting of the ways is something I understand and in some
ways brought on because of how central I believe artistic leadership is to
arts organizations, but it's also something I'm not entirely pleased about
as I float between "free at last" and "where am I?," knowing full well you
can't have one without the other.
I am pleased with many things accomplished there, including developing a
literary mission within/among the book arts there, making the place
considerably more open to women (yes, there is an "old boy printer's
network") and artists/programs of diverse natures in many ways, making it
embrace a wider sense of what the printed book might mean, and involving it
more with theoretical discussions of art and culture. Also several specific
things, like the Art & Language symposium, visits by Johanna Drucker, Brad
Freeman, Amos Paul Kennedy, Kathleen Fraser, Spencer Selby (Gary Sullivan &
Marta Deike brought him, but we were happy to host him), and upcoming ones
by Mei-Mei Berssenbrugge & Myung Mi Kim, among others, and this doesn't
include the 14 writers/artists/critics who were part of the Art & Language
symposium and who include participants on this list. Also publications like
the one on press right now which is a collaged language/visual meditation
with many sculptural dimensions, and an upcoming book of essays called
Talking the Boundless Book (Linda, your & Toshiki's contribution IS now
going to be part of that book, and a few others on this list, I believe,
already know that your work is part of the book as well -- I'll post
another announcement about this book in a few weeks).
But this is not to blow the center's or my horn, just to hope that such
activities continue and that people on this list find ways to keep up with
them if they do. It's been quite a two year ride and my main regret is not
having the budget or support to do quite a bit more in terms of widening
and sharpening the focus.
And to announce that Chax Press will become quite a bit
more active once again (more about that in a post in a few weeks), and that
at this time we have no plans to move, although it will be a subject of
discussion, and the southwestern light Cynthia and I spent so many good
years in up until two years ago still is something greatly missed.
We will be away at a cabin on a lake in northern Wisconsin for a week,
beginning Sunday, and I am going to set poetics, as of this morning, on
"nomail," so please send any personal messages to my direct e-mail
address for the next eight days, mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu. That address will
remain main for quite a while, and I'll notify various people, and
re-subscribe to poetics, if it changes.
Thanks to all here for making this a part of my time at book arts the last
couple of years, and for putting up with my mixing up poetics & the book
arts now & then.
love,
charles
charles alexander [===========^^============]
[ <> ]
chax press [ maybe a <> pages ]
[ time <> letters ]
phone & fax: 612-721-6063 [ upon <> frames ]
[ once <> motion ]
e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu [ <> ]
[===========vv============]
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 09:09:38 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Renga 1
In message <199507291201.FAA07734@ix5.ix.netcom.com> UB Poetics discussion
group writes:
> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud
> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds
> The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three
Oriented to a better metaphysics on glass sill
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 09:10:34 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: rengaro [Cth
In message <199507291205.FAA08001@ix5.ix.netcom.com> UB Poetics discussion
group writes:
> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud
> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds
> Disperate literary melds sweet songs
> Together into a paste (rather like overdone eggplant)
o be the ratatouille of my razorbladed rhizome!
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 09:12:00 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Renga1
In message <Pine.SUN.3.91.950729103430.4232F-100000@uhunix4.its.Hawaii.Edu> UB
Poetics discussion group writes:
> On Sat, 29 Jul 1995, Ron Silliman wrote:
>
> > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
> > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
> > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
> > Solemn air and sabbath retrograde
> > Why: these dots in the race when dreamt, did birds
> > in flew inverted sabbath race in whistle window retrograde
> > many forms of soup comingled (miso-plum puree, chalk-salt
> > We are feeling very good indeed among the lumber
> > Spotted 72 King Penguins (No's 32, 33 and 66 missing)
> > Amid the waitrons, the glare off your dark glasses
> > went follow my birding instinct
You birddog you, the hellhound on whose trail
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 09:18:43 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Another Saturday Night
In message <Pine.SOL.3.91.950729090026.10563B-100000@athens> UB Poetics
discussion group writes:
> Maria can demur with the best of them; nothing demure about it!
o golly gee shucks...back to my corner cave to breathe quietly.
but seriously folks, sometimes i think gender is overrated as a conversational
topic. it doesn't make the top of my head fly off. all it does is remind me
that my paycheck is less than that of my male jr colleague who works on images
of queen elizabeth in spenser. (and he --as well as those who make these
monetary determinations --can talk a great line about anti-essentialism,
feminism, and the whole megilla, with utter sincerity)--md
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 09:19:55 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Renga1
In message <950729122042_125735341@aol.com> UB Poetics discussion group writes:
> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
> Solemn air and sabbath retrograde
> Why: these dots in the race when dreamt, did birds
> in flew inverted sabbath race in whistle window retrograde
> We are feeling very good indeed among the lumber,
> The bat corked and me cousin also
> Uncorked, calmly asking for __The Curse of the Red Seal__
as the blue Nile whimpered and wagged its way to a sunny sea
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 09:26:25 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: the feminine
>
> Hi Maria:
>
> OK, you vote to scrap the terms altogether.
yeah, i guess i kinda do, at least as a temporary experiment, to see what
happens. it seems that invoking gender mixes anger and injustice into the
question of "difference," and it'd be interesting to find out if there're ways
of talking about difference that are neutral. maybe there aren't. how did yin
and yang evolve from mossy/nonmossy sides of trees to gender? that's
fascinating, i never knew that, just goes to show...something--md
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 00:40:34 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rod Smith <AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: knowledge can destroy anything
Willa wrote: "I don't think that knowledge can destroy anything"
I don't know what this means. A bit of jargon such as the word "ideology"
might be in order?
--Rod
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 12:50:43 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jordan Davis." <Jordan70@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Renga 1
>>In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
>>And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
>>The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud
>Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds
>The caravan of windows to what they flee
Control is not a word for hot-air balloons
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 12:53:34 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jordan Davis." <Jordan70@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Re Re Renga
>In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
>In the crooks were nannies and in the nannies began responsibilities.
>And desire. To which, Mr Stanley, to wit, "Mistah Bowering, he...
>suffers himself too much, perhaps a small tango would permit
him the opporuntity to advance (too much apricot in the tea
>at 12:14 the two-passenger experimental glider struck the
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 12:51:17 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jordan Davis." <Jordan70@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Renga 3
Uh, hold on a second, hello, Young and Modern magazine
In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books
That cooks would look to in the hope of
many forms of soup comingled (miso-plum puree, chalk-salt,
stewed pigeons). Outside, the sheep dogs barking,
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 12:56:18 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jordan Davis." <Jordan70@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Renga1
In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
Solemn air and sabbath retrograde
Why: these dots in the race when dreamt, did birds
Flitter high over the stadium, the lights
Actually tiny distortions of the cornea
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 12:58:26 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jordan Davis." <Jordan70@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Renga1
In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
Solemn air and sabbath retrograde
Why: these dots in the race when dreamt, did birds
in flew inverted sabbath race in whistle window retrograde
until the books were broth again, steaming, onions bobbing
Good luck, gentlemen. Howard, thanks! Last call
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 13:00:28 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jordan Davis." <Jordan70@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Renga 1
In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud
Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds
The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three
Something has changed in the nature of friendship
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 14:10:36 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Scheil <cschei1@GRFN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Renga 3
In-Reply-To: <950730125117_126317924@aol.com>
On Sun, 30 Jul 1995, Jordan Davis. wrote:
> Uh, hold on a second, hello, Young and Modern magazine
> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books
> That cooks would look to in the hope of
> many forms of soup comingled (miso-plum puree, chalk-salt,
> stewed pigeons). Outside, the sheep dogs barking,
pestles hung in evergreen, the jangle-frag of mapping out
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 14:19:11 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jonathan Brannen <jbrannen@INFOLINK.MORRIS.MN.US>
Subject: Re: Free Verse Soot
Rod,
Calling poetry "art" as Thomas did, was not an attempt to "clarify" any
more than calling the mechanics of poetry "tricks" was. The point
of Thomas' statement was as you say: "the 'poetic' is not finally defineable
You know it when you seeit, & who sees it where is different." My point
in quoting Thomas was to clarify that knowing the mechanics of how
poetry is made is not necessarily the road to disillusionment, as
was previously stated in reference to someone's grad school experiences.
I would think that knowing the tricks and then experiencing the results
would only increase one's awareness that something other than mechanics
is afoot. I have no problem calling this undefined "art" and I have
wondered why there is a recurring reticence in discussions on the
poetics list to say poetry is an art and one that requires talent as
well as technique.
Jonathan Brannen
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 17:23:28 -0400
Reply-To: au102@freenet.carleton.ca
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Louis Cabri <au102@FREENET.CARLETON.CA>
Subject: rengala
In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud
Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds
The caravan of windows to what they flee
Rack of lambent jingoism, carving the exemplar's demise
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 17:26:57 -0400
Reply-To: au102@freenet.carleton.ca
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Louis Cabri <au102@FREENET.CARLETON.CA>
Subject: rengaga
In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud
Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds
Disperate literary melds sweet songs
Together into a paste (rather like overdone eggplant)
"To Stir With Love" the Puke of Hollywood, a hair's
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 17:40:11 -0400
Reply-To: au102@freenet.carleton.ca
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Louis Cabri <au102@FREENET.CARLETON.CA>
Subject: rengate malls
In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud
Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds
The caravan of windows to what they flee
These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more
Parking lot than parking attendant, more wacko than Texas
torch songs. By contrast, ghostmodernism marks the
emergence of the desire to be
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 14:41:52 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: "Believe"?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.950728194240.25438B-100000
@godzilla.acpub.duke.edu> from "David Kellogg" at Jul 28,
95 07:48:38 pm
See Robin Blaser, _Bach's Belief_.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 14:45:40 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: knowledge can destroy anything
In-Reply-To: <950728004030_124764979@aol.com> from "Rod Smith" at Jul 28,
95 00:40:34 am
Knowledge can destroy ignorance.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 16:38:41 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steve Carll <sjcarll@SLIP.NET>
Subject: moss
>> Hi Maria:
>>
>> OK, you vote to scrap the terms altogether.
>
>yeah, i guess i kinda do, at least as a temporary experiment, to see what
>happens. it seems that invoking gender mixes anger and injustice into the
>question of "difference," and it'd be interesting to find out if there're ways
>of talking about difference that are neutral. maybe there aren't. how did yin
>and yang evolve from mossy/nonmossy sides of trees to gender? that's
>fascinating, i never knew that, just goes to show...something--md
I haven't heard a history of meaning for the terms; I'd assume it just got
metaphorically mapped onto other binary pairs as the oracles proceeded to
interpret the observed world in terms of yin/yang. Somewhere along the
road, gender became the dominant example of duality, so they became primary
translators of each other.
Steve
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 20:01:13 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Thomas Bell <tbjn@WELL.COM>
Subject: Re: [D [D [D [D [D [D [DRe: Renga 1
In message <199507291201.FAA07734@ix5.ix.netcom.com> UB Poetics discussion
group writes:
> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud
> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds
> The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three
>Oriented to a better metaphysics on glass sill
marbled Kerouaccaurek stays in the distant summer
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 23:17:32 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jorge Guitart <MLLJORGE@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Renga 1
In-Reply-To: <199507291206.FAA08110@ix5.ix.netcom.com>
On Sat, 29 Jul 1995, Ron Silliman wrote:
> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud
> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds
> The caravan of windows to what they flee
> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more
acute, glassy, knighty, and bindy
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 23:32:52 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jorge Guitart <MLLJORGE@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Re: rengaro [Cth
In-Reply-To: <199507291205.FAA08001@ix5.ix.netcom.com>
On Sat, 29 Jul 1995, Ron Silliman wrote:
> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud
> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds
> Disperate literary melds sweet songs
> Together into a paste (rather like overdone eggplant)
which chef Bokardo bakes and Barbara Celarent tastes
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 23:39:49 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jorge Guitart <MLLJORGE@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Renga
In-Reply-To: <199507291203.FAA07902@ix5.ix.netcom.com>
On Sat, 29 Jul 1995, Ron Silliman wrote:
> In the books were dreams and in those dreams, books
> They flew through windows, one light green and fine morning
> First invented by the whistle of a cardinal in the popular
> Solemn air and sabbath retrograde amalgam. . .
> Why these dots? in the race with dreams, dead birds
> Flew into the words inverted, sabbath, race, in, whistle, window,
> And retrograde, as many forms of sap coming unglued. Chalk salt
> We are feeling very good and undid the lumber
> Spotted 72 King Penguins (No's 32, 33 and 66 missing). Let's see
> That's lines 10, clouds none. My mouse squeaks, does yours?
> Kit Robinson, all elbows under the basket, rebounds well, gadzooks!
lending support to their usefulness as a cognitional framework
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 23:42:23 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jorge Guitart <MLLJORGE@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Renga 1
In-Reply-To: <199507291201.FAA07734@ix5.ix.netcom.com>
On Sat, 29 Jul 1995, Ron Silliman wrote:
> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud
> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds
> The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three
thus the global and the level and the designation
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 23:50:34 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jorge Guitart <MLLJORGE@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Renga 1
In-Reply-To: <199507291158.EAA07475@ix5.ix.netcom.com>
On Sat, 29 Jul 1995, Ron Silliman wrote:
> every fifth line must preceed the first:
>
> Before alive and bled by law>
> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud
> Forth on the godly sea, Circes this craft, the trim-coiffed
or true that the natural song of bonk would
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 22:06:32 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Thomas Bell <tbjn@WELL.COM>
Subject: Re: Renga1
In message <950729122042_125735341@aol.com> UB Poetics discussion group
writes:
> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
> Solemn air and sabbath retrograde
> Why: these dots in the race when dreamt, did birds
> in flew inverted sabbath race in whistle window retrograde
> We are feeling very good indeed among the lumber,
> The bat corked and me cousin also
> Uncorked, calmly asking for __The Curse of the Red Seal__
> as the blue Nile whimpered and wagged its way to a sunny sea
Where the moon and the melon comspired before a fading sun
Day walked together along the longge Innland Sea
son of the golden arches urinating farthest In
the dreams of the stories of da days inn
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 22:15:01 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Thomas Bell <tbjn@WELL.COM>
Subject: rengala
>In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
>And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
>First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
>The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud
>Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds
>The caravan of windows to what they flee
>Rack of lambent jingoism, carving the exemplar's demise
Hurricane Eden and evening is nigh []~`\)<-
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Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 01:19:09 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Alan Sondheim <sondheim@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: rengala
In-Reply-To: <199507310515.WAA26949@well.com>
On Sun, 30 Jul 1995, Thomas Bell wrote:
> >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
> >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
> >First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
> >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud
> >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds
> >The caravan of windows to what they flee
> >Rack of lambent jingoism, carving the exemplar's demise
> Hurricane Eden and evening is nigh []~`\)<-
> Clouded by my drunken bumbling into renga
> Where uninvited caravans endlessly sun and whistle
> Stumbling me out of clouds flat out the company of poets
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 00:46:59 +0000
Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <jzitt@bga.com>
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@HUMANSYSTEMS.COM>
Organization: HumanSystems
Subject: Re: Renga 1
Comments: To: Thomas Bell <tbjn@WELL.COM>
On 30 Jul 95 at 20:01, Thomas Bell wrote:
> In message <199507291201.FAA07734@ix5.ix.netcom.com> UB Poetics discussion
> group writes:
> > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
> > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
> > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
> > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud
> > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds
> > The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three
> >Oriented to a better metaphysics on glass sill
> marbled Kerouaccaurek stays in the distant summer
Tree frog monkeys of Javan caught checked at breakfast
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/ Online Representative, Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 00:46:53 +0000
Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <jzitt@bga.com>
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@HUMANSYSTEMS.COM>
Organization: HumanSystems
Subject: Re: Renga 1
Comments: To: "Jordan Davis." <Jordan70@AOL.COM>
On 30 Jul 95 at 13:00, Jordan Davis. wrote:
> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud
> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds
> The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three
> Something has changed in the nature of friendship
Renegade and flightless, board of common prayer aside
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/ Online Representative, Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 02:16:50 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rod Smith <AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: I am I because my little knowledge knows me
"What you don't know can hurt other people."
--Ted Berrigan
This is my point abt ideology.
I wrote:
>Willa wrote: "I don't think that knowledge can destroy anything"
>I don't know what this means. A bit of jargon such as the word "ideology"
>might be in order?
GB wrote:
>Knowledge can destroy ignorance.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 02:20:39 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rod Smith <AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Renga1
In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
Solemn air and sabbath retrograde
Why: these dots in the race when dreamt, did birds
in flew inverted sabbath race in whistle window retrograde
until the books were broth again, steaming, onions bobbing
Good luck, gentlemen. Howard, thanks! Last call--
411 is a joke
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 02:49:29 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rod Smith <AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Free Verse Soot
Think we're basically in agreement, just focusing on different aspects of the
Thomas quote. Hadn't noticed the "recurring reticence" you referred to, but I
haven't been on here that long.
DOWN WITH RECURRING RETICENCE.
--Rod
JB wrote
>Poetry has been "demystified" for you so it no longer exists?
>Well, I never thought I'd find myself quoting Dylan Thomas but:
>"The tricks are easy to learn, it's the art that's difficult."
(or words to that effect).
I responded:
Can't say as I see how calling it "art" clarifys. & it's true, I hope, that
the longer you write the more you learn, but I'm with B.K. in that the
"poetic" is not finally defineable. You know it when you see it, & who sees
it where is different, I think, for different people.
JB responded
>Rod,
Calling poetry "art" as Thomas did, was not an attempt to >"clarify" any
>more than calling the mechanics of poetry "tricks" was. The point
>of Thomas' statement was as you say: "the 'poetic' is not finally defineable
>You know it when you seeit, & who sees it where is different." My point
in quoting Thomas was to clarify that knowing the mechanics of how
>poetry is made is not necessarily the road to disillusionment, as
was previously stated in reference to someone's grad school experiences.
>I would think that knowing the tricks and then experiencing the results
>would only increase one's awareness that something other than mechanics
>is afoot. I have no problem calling this undefined "art" and I have
wondered why there is a recurring reticence in discussions on the
>poetics list to say poetry is an art and one that requires talent as
well as technique.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 23:50:47 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ryan Knighton <knighton@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: I am I because my little knowledge knows me
In-Reply-To: <950731021649_126764974@aol.com> from "Rod Smith" at Jul 31,
95 02:16:50 am
Knowledge is a sexually transmitted ease. (since we're jousting
with maxims)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 00:20:25 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Sheila E. Murphy" <semurphy@INDIRECT.COM>
Subject: Re: Renga 1
>In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
>And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
>First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar
>The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud
>Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds
>The caravan of windows to what they flee
>These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more
Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 11:00:58 +0000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: cris cheek <cris@SLANG.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: beowulf
I'm quoting two poets whose knowledge of Beowulf, in particular, and
anglo-saxon poetry beggars mine -
'References within the poem e.g. ll. 1063-70 suggest a sung performance.
Against that is the typical lack of syllabic regularity in the line: the
line seems designed to produce a varied spoken rhythm. Sentences too vary
in length and structure as though to give variety to spoken delivery. There
is no stanza-structure to guide melodic planning. In fact the only regular
unit is the line. Here, of the four stresses in each line, three are marked
by alliteration: in most cases they would, when spoken, be phonetically
obvious to the listener, certainly so if given a little emphasis. Equally,
a melodic formula could be designed for the four-stress line and repeated
for each line; or each line have a melodic shape fitting the contures of
the stress-pattern, rising in pitch at the 'stress' - this is the gist of
Thomas Cable's 'The Meter and Melody of Beowulf' (University of Illinois
Press, 1974). Melody must surely be based on the line structure, and not
slow delivery too much. J.C. Pope's 'The Rhythm of Beowulf' (Yale
University Press, 1966) suggests rhythmic performance in the sense of
modern mathematical-bar-rhythm: it is achieved with damage to the obvious
line-structure. The Anglo-Saxon harp, as found at Sutton Hoo, is not a
rhythmic or even chordal instrument: it covers a limited scale of notes and
would probably double the sung melodic line.' (Bill Griffiths)
'The glimpse we get of a trained poet spontaneously creating new work out
of flexible oral formulas, rooted in basic prosodic demands of alliteration
and stress, gives some hint about the generation of the poem. The scene in
which Hrothgar's bard retells a heroic episode from the Danish past
suggests a context for the actual performance of Beowulf. The allusive
method of the work, its oblique revelations and tantalising occlusions no
less than its stunningly discontinuous structure, argue that such
composition and performance assumed in the audience an extensive knowledge
of the traditions available to the poet. Thus the text can be understood as
an action in which the audience participates, a cultural fact which tends
to exclude the modern reader.' (John Porter)
and from Porter's 1975 as opposed to 1984 translation of the poem here's
it's section on the process of composition:
' At times king's thane
man word-laden, songs recalling,
he who very many ancient stories
well remembered, words new devised
correctly linked; man in turn began
the feat of Beowulf skillfully to recite,
and artfully create a tale in keeping,
words varying; likewise told'
The issue of rhythm is crucial. Rhythm in folk musics has been tightened by
the twin processes of military organisation and industrialisation? The
storyteller Ben Gaggarty was here over the weekend and along with
traditional singer Chris Foster and poets Jean 'binta' Breeze and Merle
Collins we got into a protracted discussion of rhythm and oral traditions.
The question remains as to whether rhythm organically follows or imposes on
pulse? Rhythm in many 'folk' musics has become 'stricter' throughout the
twentieth century. Go way back into earlier millenia and the speculation
favours a looser feel. A beguiling subtlety of pulse.
Finally I'd recommend Eric Havelock's 'Preface To Plato' 9Basil Blackwell,
1963). I got into it about 20 years back through Eric Mottram's enthusiasm.
One terrific book. Just to whet the appetite by giving some chapter
headings:
'Poetry As Preserved Communication'
'Epic As Record versus Epic As Narrative'
'The Psychology of the Poetic Performance'
'The Content and Quality of the Poetised Statement'
'Separation of Knower from Known'
It discusses habits of 'variation within the same' for example. Here's
hoping some of this list's readers can get hold of copies or already know
this marvellous read.
love and renga
cris
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 10:57:31 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: beowulf
cris,
my experience of the oral performance of beowulf, which i recently wrote
here about, suggests that the actual enunciation of what we now have as
a written text departed quite a bit from the regularity as we see it.
thank you so much for your comments, which I am saving for future reference.
burt
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 12:19:49 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jorge Guitart <MLLJORGE@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Organization: University at Buffalo
Subject: renga 1
let's start over.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 11:35:02 PST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tom Taylor <TOMT@CH1.CH.PDX.EDU>
Organization: PSU Cramer Hall
Subject: Re: natl poetry month is april
go internety
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 14:44:31 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steven Howard Shoemaker <ss6r@FERMI.CLAS.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Renga, Renga, Renga
In-Reply-To: <199507310405.AAA71606@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU> from "Automatic
digest processor" at Jul 31, 95 00:01:39 am
Aldon Nielsen writes:
"a basic feature of the Rnga is supposed to be, as Jacques Roubaud neatly
summarized it, that the links (composed of 2 & 3 line sections) follow a
syallbic count, and that "any given link of the renga must form a poem
along with that which precedes it and this poem must be different from
that which it forms with the link which follows it." The new rules
proposed in recent postings are in the tradition of proliferating
"binding" rules from the 14th century on. What we have going, & perhaps
the medium made this inevitable, is something quite different, though no
less intriguing. I wouldn't call it a "wronga" -- but maybe we should
give it a name of our own devising that might cause less confusion. It's
clearly a ringer."
Well, according to the exalted authority of the Princeton Encyclopedia of
You-Know-What there *is* a tradition of very complex requirements for the
renga form. But it also came, "in Mid-Classical times," to be used as a
form of "relaxation after the rigors of composition in the tanka form."
This practice "tended to frivolity," but the more "serious" tradition
persisted as well, so that a distinction was made between serious (*ushin*)
and playful (*mushin*) forms.
Perhaps we cld consider our little exercise as belonging to the *mushin*
category. So: *mush*!
steve
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 15:09:54 CDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: eric pape <ENPAPE@LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: knowledge can destroy anything
In-Reply-To: <199507302145.OAA05675@fraser.sfu.ca>
Ignorance is far more sure of itself than knowledge. Because it doesn't have
to PROVE!
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 14:10:28 PST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tom Taylor <TOMT@CH1.CH.PDX.EDU>
Organization: PSU Cramer Hall
Subject: Re: renga 1
over what
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 14:15:10 PST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tom Taylor <TOMT@CH1.CH.PDX.EDU>
Organization: PSU Cramer Hall
Subject: Re: open mike
tenor leaven
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 14:54:59 PST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tom Taylor <TOMT@CH1.CH.PDX.EDU>
Organization: PSU Cramer Hall
Subject: Re: pseudononomous newbie
week
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 16:40:55 PST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tom Taylor <TOMT@CH1.CH.PDX.EDU>
Organization: PSU Cramer Hall
Subject: Re: Renga, Renga, Renga
Mush! Tenga Ranga.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 17:31:16 +1700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: rengaro [Cth
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9507302345.B539856439-0100000@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu>
from "Jorge Guitart" at Jul 30, 95 11:32:52 pm
>
> On Sat, 29 Jul 1995, Ron Silliman wrote:
>
> > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.
> > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning
> > Oh go and go Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds
> > Disperate literary melds sweet songs
> > Together into a paste (rather like overdone eggplant)
> Why not a three point shot from the perimeter of San Bernardino?
.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 19:05:28 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: B&D
Thought that header would get your attention. But no, no discussions of
Bataille here tonight. What follows is worse. Bob & Dole. Here's the
current version of his presidential stump speech. For those of you who
are into self-abuse, you can get onto the GOP primary listserv and be
kept up to date with all these contending NEA supporters, eg Bullet Bob
Dornan or Phil Gramm or Pete (the ultimate opportunist) Wilson.
For details, check out the web page.
**********************************************************************
NH-Primary: The New Hampshire Presidential Primary Internet Forum
Moderators: Mark Kuhn & Jim Farrell
Department of Communication
University of New Hampshire
Web Page: For up-to-date information and the nhprimary archive.
http://unhinfo.unh.edu/unh/acad/libarts/comm/nhprimary/nhprim.html
**********************************************************************
July 31, 1995, Contents:
Dole
*Transcribed text of speech given by Senator Dole at Rochester, NH on
July 30. The speech preceeds a question and answer "town hall"
meeting
with Sen. Dole. The question and answer session will be available to
you
soon.
Note: A posting of "talk" or comments from members will be posted
tomorrow.
************************************************************************
**
Transcribed from audiotape by Brad Jackvony and Mark Kuhn.
____________________________
Sen. Robert Dole
Rochester Community Center, Rochester, NH. July 30, 1995
Well first of all I thank you for coming out on a Sunday afternoon
I appreciate it very much. I'm sorry Elizabeth cannot be here but
she's just recovering from a carotid artery operation which they
had to do twice uh in the last six months. But in any event she's
back at work and she'll be out on the campaign trail soon. They
gave me the day off yesterday, it was her birthday so they gave me
the day yesterday so I got to stay in Washington, but uh I've been
coming to New Hampshire for a long time. In fact I've probably
been in Rochester before anybody here was ever in Rochester. Let's
see, maybe forty five years ago I used to come to Rochester from
time to time from the larger city of Farmington.
[laughter and applause]
And uh I so I know about Rochester. The Mayor's here also and his
wife Pat. We're happy to have the Mayor here. Where is the Mayor?
He's here somewhere. Thank you very much for coming, we appreciate
it very much.
[applause]
You know I've been in politics for some time. And some people say
that's the trouble you've been in politics too long. But then I
think that if I'm going to have an operation I want somebody who's
been in there for a while who's working me over. Or if I'm going to
buy anything I want somebody to represent to me, well I know you
have to get started sometime, but I don't think experience is bad.
That's the point I want to make.
And I've had a lot of experience. And I've made a lot of
decisions. And I'm not perfect. But I'd like to think that most
of the votes I've cast over the years have been mainstream
conservative votes that most Americans would support. We we can't
agree on every issue, there's some issues we disagree on. There's
some single issue that people disagree on. Some disagree so much
they leave the party or they won't vote for anybody who has a
different point of view. In my view that's not the way to build the
Republican party.
There's so much we agree on particularly on economic issues It's
my view that the hope of American lies with strengthening the
Republican party and making it stronger. Of course it's pretty
strong right here in New Hampshire. I was asking George [Lovejoy]
how many, they have 24 senators and 18 Republicans. 18 to 6 now
that's that's a big margin. In the U.S. Senate we have 54
Republicans and 46 Democrats. And all the Republicans don't stick
together all the time. So you've always got little slippage there.
But the thing that really happened that caught the attention of the
American people was in 1994. Last November we had a political
earthquake in America. And whether you're Democrats or Republicans
or Independents you got to believe that there was a seismic change
in what happened. The American people by and large, Democrats,
Republicans, whatever, said, "We've had enough." We want to return
power back to the states and back to the people. We want to make
the government smaller. We know the government does a lot of good
things. Probably everybody in this room may have benefitted or
will benefit the federal program while you're on this earth. So
I'm not suggesting the government hasn't done a lot of good things,
but I watched it grow, and I voted against its growth. I voted
against the Education Department. I voted against HUD. I voted
against the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. I voted against
the National Endowment for the Arts.
And I've tried over the years to try keep the government smaller
because somebody has to pay for it. And you know who that is.
It's you. The people in the first row and the people in the last
row and all the people in between. So that's what this election's
all about. We have a number of good Republican candidates running
for President. They're all friends of mine. I've worked with
them. I've served with the four Republican Senators running for
President. So I've served with them everyday, everyday they're in
town and everyday I'm in town, which is about everyday.
So I just suggest that you're going to make the choice, and a lot
of people in the other states will never have the opportunity to
make because New Hampshire is so important and New Hampshire will
have the first primary. I don't care what happens. New Hampshire
will be the first primary state. And it should be the first primary
state. And it's gonna happen.
[applause]
Iowa will have the first caucus state. Iowa had the first, in fact
the Governor of Iowa is somewhere campaigning for me today in New
Hampshire. He's one of my supporters.
Let me also say that I understand the importance of Portsmouth's
Naval Yard to this group. Many may work there. Many certainly
indirectly or directly have an interest in Portsmouth. We're
pleased that it's over. And I would just say as an [aside,?] that
it's not based on politics. I didn't make any calls. But when
they had this eight member Brack commission vote to put Portsmouth
back on the list. The vote was six to two. The two people I
appointed voted not to even to put you back on the list. So I
think my people who looked very objective in my view they didn't
think Portsmouth should even be looked at again. They thought it
was a clear case. Made a convincing case. Certainly the Senator
and Congressman Zeliff and others in this room played a major part
in that. But I would just say that I have I have been there many
times, know where it is and I understand its importance.
Let me also talk about leadership. I don't know how many people
here really, really are concerned with what happens in some far off
place like Bosnia. We watch television. We're all compassionate
people. We don't like to see children murdered. We don't like to
see women ravaged. We don't like to see older people driven down
the streets, driven from their homes. But we also know that we
can't reach out as Americans and take care of everybody in the
world. We know that. As much as we feel we're a compassionate
people. We're willing to help but there's some things we just
cannot do.
But one thing we could do in Bosnia is the thing I've been talking
about even in the Bush administration. I must confess I was
somewhat critical of the Bush administration. All the Bosnian
people have ever asked us is to lift this illegal embargo and let
them defend themselves. Not send American troops. President
Clinton promises to send 25,000 American troops. I doubt he could
get that authority from Congress. So what we did last week in the
senate by a vote of 69 to 29 . By law would direct the President to
lift the arms embargo. What does that mean? It means the Bosnians
are gonna to have the same chance as the others involved in that
conflict to defend themselves. They're an independent nation.
They're a member of United Nations. They have a right to self
defense under Article 51 of the United Nations charter. And they
ought to have that right. And the House is going to take it up on
Tuesday. We think its going to be an overwhelming vote. And I
assume the President may veto it. Then we have to override the
veto which takes two thirds vote. And we think its time the
President tried [his leadership?]
[Applause]
Now the importance not only in Bosnia is the lack of prestige and
the loss of prestige that we've suffered in the last 30 months
under President Clinton. He made it very clear when he was running
that foreign policy was never gonna be high on his priority list.
And I would guess as we've talked to each other we don't talk to
much about foreign policy. But sometimes it's very important.
Sometimes it could involve your son or your grandson or somebody
you know somewhere else some relative or some friend or some
neighbor. And we've got to be prepared. We've got to be prepared.
We've got to provide the leadership. But it's always occurred to
me that when Americans providing strong leadership whether its
moral or spiritual or economic or military, generally good things
happen. We've had no leadership. And don't take it from me. Read
the different columns. Read Bill Safire in the New York Times, or
read anybody else who focuses on foreign policy from time to time
about this administration's lack of leadership. It's all about
leadership. It's all about standing up to the American people and
saying this is what we are going to do. And then doing it. And
not changing it because some poll says oh you shouldn't do that you
ought to do this. And that's what leadership's about. So let me
just conclude and then I'll be happy to take questions.
I also believe that one of the biggest issues in America is welfare
reform. Welfare reform is very important not just to the taxpayers
in this audience but also important to the people that must receive
the benefits. And we've had 40 years of failure. There's no doubt
about it I don't care who they are. You have admit we've had
failure. We spent billions and billions and billions of dollars
and there're more people in trouble, more people below the poverty
[inaudible], more children born out of wedlock, more crime, more
drugs. And it hasn't worked. It hasn't worked. So getting to what
we would like to do and I'll speak about this tomorrow in
Burlington at the Governors' Conference. I speak in the morning and
President Clinton in the afternoon. He doesn't have welfare plan,
but he'll go up and tell them he has a plan. If he has a plan we'd
like to see it. He doesn't have a plan for the budget, but he
talks about a budget. He doesn't have a plan for Medicare, but he
talks about how Republicans are going to do in senior citizens,
which is not the truth at all. We're going to preserve and
protect medicare and I hope somebody asks me that question.
But welfare reform is very important. By giving block grants,
money to the Governors, to Governor Merrill, let Governor Merrill
make the decisions. Let him make the decisions. Let the state
senate and the state assembly make the decisions. If we can do it
for about twenty percent less and save billions and billions of
dollars and have a better welfare system, which is gonna be much
more responsive to needs the people that have to have it. And
we're going to have work requirements. If you can work you work.
Real work, not job training, not going to school, but real work.
That's what the program's all about.
[Applause]
Now Republicans had trouble getting together on the Senate side.
We're just about there. We hope to have a bill to introduce on
Tuesday. And we hope to take it up. We're gonna we're not gonna
have a, the House'll be in recess and the Senate will still be
working. Cause we work more slowly. Our founding fathers wanted
it that way. And we haven't let them down. You know it flows
pretty slow.
In fact on the balanced budget amendment, I remember we took
twenty-two days and lost by one vote. That was disheartening. We
had a lot of debate. And I'm reminded, if you watch C-SPAN, you've
probably watched Robert Byrd from time to time, the Senator from
West Virginia, a Democrat. He didn't like the balanced budget
amendment. Said, "It was a terrible thing, we shouldn't have it."
He's also a student of Roman history. If you've ever happened to
listen to one of his Roman history lectures. I tried to get C-SPAN
to offer college credit for people who would listen to his Roman
history lessons. But, I remember one day on the Senate floor he
was waxing away and he's very, and I say it with some admiration
cause he knows alot about Senate rules and alot about Roman
history. And he was talking about the balanced budget amendment,
and he said "It was so bad that if Cicero were alive today he would
be against the balanced budget amendment." At which time Senator
Thurmond arose and said, "Well, I knew Cicero and he was for the
balanced budget amendment." Now Senator Thurmond's only ninety-
two. I was with him in South Carolina, Friday. He's my honorary
Chairman there. He's going to run again in ninety-six. He said
"If he's re-elected he may consider term limits."
[laughter]
He only wants to serve a couple more terms. That's be twelve
years. Then he wants to do something worthwhile. So if anybody
here feels old just walk around with Strom for a couple of days and
you'll feel like a spring chicken.
Well let me say finally. I'll talk about the three R's and then
I'll stop. Rein in the federal government. It's gotten too big.
Reconnect the government with the [vantages?] of the people here
today and all across America. A lot of the things we think the
government does good, ends up doing bad. Then reassert ourselves
as a nation wherever and whenever challenged. I'm not just talking
about the military. The President of the United States should use
that office as a bully pulpit.
Lots of people in Hollywood know or the entertainment industry,
that there's something more to this business than how much money
you can make. That there are children involved. As I see the
young man here in the third row and other young people here. And
all we're asking is, we're not asking for censorship, I'd be
opposed to censorship. But we're asking if you ever tried to read
the some of the lyrics. and I know probably nobody here wouldn't
even dare read the lyrics or attend some of the movies. I believe
the President of the United States, if he has credibility and
integrity, he can provide a lot of leadership and we could have
movies that we could watch together with our children or
grandchildren.
[Applause]
Before I take the first question, everybody has a little card like
this. It's a little card we hope you'll fill out, because that
means you're gonna help us. And, at least we hope it means you're
gonna help us. If you wanna have a coffee or a barbecue or
Congressman Zeliff and I'll probably be back, before the election
of course. And we'll be back after the election too. I know how
to get back to New Hampshire after the election as well as before
the election. So, it's just that we hope you can help us. We have
a great organization here. It's gonna be run by New Hampshire
people not outsiders. It's gonna be run by New Hampshire
Congressman Zeliff's my state chairman, Judd Gregg is my regional
chairman, Congressman Bass is gonna to be on board before long. And
we hope many we hope to announce many many others here in the near
future before. So having said that, I'd be happy to respond to
questions.
NOTE: [The question and answer session is being transcribed and
will be available soon]