========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 21:58:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: renga, re Aside from a desire to follow tradition, there is no reason not to invent a new (cyber?) form of renga here. I have done some work on what I call 0"bluestankas" (modern or post-such urban and gritty) and in some ways the spirit travels well. Over the weekend I chanced (serendipitously?) across the best description of renga I've seen. It comes from a more popular and less formal source, but I think it captures the spirit or soul of renga: "_Renga is essentially perpetual-motion verse capping. To the fourteen syllables that cap a _tanka one adds another verse of seventeen, in effect starting another _tanka. Only this new verse continues the thought of the fourteen-syllable verse and (more important) departs from the meaning of the original seventeen-syllable verse, shifting the seasonal identification, the speaker, the mood, or some other significant element. When you read _renga, you not only find meaning being added and deepened, you see it also being subtracted, slipping into oblivion, as the old links slough off and away. You become attentive and wary as every link shines and shifts under your eyes. Buddhist critics likened the composing of _renga to a correct understanding of the impermanence of the world." (from _All-Japan: the catalog of everything Japanese). Bada Shanren ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 23:56:57 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: rengala > > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >The caravan of windows to what they flee > >Rack of lambent jingoism, carving the exemplar's demise > Hurricane Eden and evening is nigh []~`\)<- > Inside, inside! This syndetic material is killing me. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 00:06:14 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: rengala > > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > >First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > >The caravan of windows to what they flee > > >Rack of lambent jingoism, carving the exemplar's demise > > Hurricane Eden and evening is nigh []~`\)<- > Inside, inside! This syndetic material is killing me. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 08:40:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: Free Verse Soot In-Reply-To: <9507301919.AA06436@infolink.infolink.morris.mn.us> OK, I'm back after a half-week hiatus, and will continue to input on the question of belief. In a related story, Jonathan Brannen wonders why there is resistence on the part of some to calling poetry an art, and then muses about the respective roles of talent & technique. But the obvious answer doesn't seem to suggest itself, so I'll spell it out: some of us don't like to use the term "art" because for us more is lost than gained. In particular what is lost for me is the avoidance of mystification, evidenced aplenty by Brannen's well-meant appeal to the undefined (and by implication undefinable). Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg The moment is at hand. University Writing Program Take one another Duke University and eat. Durham, NC 27708 kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 09:32:11 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: Renga, Renga, Renga Tom Taylor: What? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 08:21:05 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Taylor Organization: PSU Cramer Hall Subject: Re: rengaro [Cth Nothing but net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 08:59:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: folk rhythms & forms Cris Cheek writes: >The issue of rhythm is crucial. Rhythm in folk musics has been tightened by >the twin processes of military organisation and industrialisation? The >storyteller Ben Gaggarty was here over the weekend and along with >traditional singer Chris Foster and poets Jean 'binta' Breeze and Merle >Collins we got into a protracted discussion of rhythm and oral traditions. >The question remains as to whether rhythm organically follows or imposes on >pulse? Rhythm in many 'folk' musics has become 'stricter' throughout the >twentieth century. Go way back into earlier millenia and the speculation >favours a looser feel. A beguiling subtlety of pulse. While it's true that older folk forms have become increasingly calcified, I think this is more part of an ongoing historic process than a result of "the 20th Century." Once people are writing in a form that they learn by rote rather than through an active community practice, you've got problems. Hence, blues, or Child ballads, or New Orleans-style jazz, are, for the most part, now rule-based artforms, rather than a tradition in which people actively develop a style. & the rhythms used often seem as if the performer learned them by rote, rather than felt them. This is not true of some newer folk forms (by which I mean forms that have an active life within some part of the culture), like some of rap or rock, or even a little of what remains of jazz. Where there are real people for whom the music is part of daily life, it is possible to have some of that rhythmic looseness, even in the context of "military organisation and industrialisation." It's difficult for a music to be central to some subculture (it seems impossible for any one music to be truly central to the whole culture any more) and still escape becoming commercialized and losing it's "folky looseness. Capital must expand, and one of the ways it does this is to absorb other cultural forms. So we end up with the travesty of a "folk" music that now means a singer performing her own songs with few (if any) other accompanists, rather than performing a song that no one knows the author of or the debacle of a "world" music that has all too often come to mean "electric guitars from many lands." But that's probably a discussion for a different group. Getting away, then, from the issue of rhythm, to the more general issue of traditional forms, (& back to poetics), much the same argument could (obviously) be made for much New Formalist poetry. It's simply a different thing for someone to write a canzone, a sestina, or a sonnet sequence several hundred years after it was a functional poetic form within the culture. It's no longer part of a living culture, it's a marketing strategy. There are different, but related problems when you are dealing with a "tradition" that values formal innovation (also as marketing strategy) regardless of content over continuing (or revived) formal structures used to convey personal content. Think how different "our" literary culture would be if many writers took on the formal rhythms of Lyn Hejinian's "My Life," the five-line stanzas of Barrett Watten's "Progress," or other structures & forms from language works of the 1980s, just as many people write sonnet sequences or workshop poems. Could these idiosyncratic forms become idioms in any functional way? What would it take for this to happen? Would it be a good thing? Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 08:59:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Innovations & Traditions Comments: To: wr-eye-tings@sfu.ca Last week (as I posted earlier to , but not to ), I heard a great performance by Dutch sound-poet Jaap Blonk. He did a lot of his own pieces, several improvisations and a few works by others, including two movements of Kurt Schwitters' Ur Sonata. Since then I've spent some time listening to 4 recordings of the Ur Sonata: by Schwitters, Blonk, Eberhard Blum & Christopher Butterfield. As with any performance, there are differences between the interpretations, but the Ur Sonata is pretty much a sonata in the classical sense. The use of contrasting themes, how they develope and contrast, the dynamics and tempi of the movements, etc. follow the structure of any classical sonata, it's just performed using odd phonetic sounds instead of a western classical instrument. Given that the Ur Sonata so closely follows one of the strictest forms of western classical music, what, if anything, makes it an avant garde work? (Sorry for any duplication caused by this cross posting. A substantial number of the people on aren't on , and it seemed that people on both lists might have something interesting to add to this topic. If you think this will be unwieldy - some people (not very many & I think you know who you are) will get messages twice - simply delete one (or more) lists from the line in the address above if you respond.) Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 12:15:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: writings and last poets herb writes: > > (Sorry for any duplication caused by this cross posting. A substantial > number of the people on aren't on , and it seemed > that people on both lists might have something interesting to add to this > topic. If you think this will be unwieldy - some people (not very many & I > think you know who you are) will get messages twice - simply delete one (or > more) lists from the line in the address above if you respond.) > > what is and how does one subscribe, if it's a list?--md also, i went to see the last poets about a week ago at First Ave., the club made famous by Prince's movie Purple Rain in the 80s. the last poets were terrific, their stuff still holds up 25 yrs later, and their new stuff, tho more look within-ish than their Black Arts Movement era pieces, is powerful too. it was a mixed crowd, lots of young Black men who were very moved and serious, pleased to have their situation acknowledged in straight-ahead verse, breaking out in spntaneous applause during "stop the madness." they were, incredibly, a warm up act for a reggae group, so there was an incongruous line of white dreadhead guys and chicks in the front row, swaying sultrily throughout the last poets' first coupla numbers until they got the idea that this wasn't quite the idea. lots of older folks too, from my era (60s and 70s) of varying ethnic affiliations. a great show. i liked that the poets weren't glamorous, like most club acts. they were just a trio of middle-aged hefty guys with great sonorous voices and good verse.--md ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 15:27:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: Innovations & Traditions Cage discussed the Ur Sonata at least once that I remember-- he used it as an example of the danger of someone with no musical training undertaking composition. That there is a tendency for one to become enamored of "simple" musical tricks. He didn't find it interesting, whether it's avant garde or not. He mentioned this in relation to a lot of work being done with synthesizers & such-- that even though many "new" sounds cld be produced with them a great number of the people working with them were thinking in "old" ways. There's another since in which the Schwitters piece cld be considered garde at least if not avant. A couple of muggers approached Schwitters in Berlin demanding money-- he began performing a portion of the URSONATE at the top of his lungs, this seriously freaked them, & they ran, w/out the money. --Rod ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 16:18:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Brannen Subject: avoidance behavior syndrome So, David, you don't like the term "art" because avoidance of mystification is lost by its use? The difficulty in defining "art" is because art is fluid by nature (i.e. constantly changing). I'm sorry that this lack of certitude causes you discomfort. Any useful tips on how to deal with life's other uncertainies? Best, Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 16:24:54 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms Comments: To: Herb Levy On 1 Aug 95 at 8:59, Herb Levy wrote: > Think how different "our" literary culture would be if many writers took on > the formal rhythms of Lyn Hejinian's "My Life," the five-line stanzas of > Barrett Watten's "Progress," or other structures & forms from language > works of the 1980s, just as many people write sonnet sequences or workshop > poems. I've thought about this a lot (from my usual non-degreed, layman's position). One problem shows up in how you posed the issue: the new forms get viewed as the "turf" of one writer or another (in your examples, Hejinian or Watten), and to use them is viewed as copping another's style. I've kicked around the idea of using Cage's mesostic form, but the method is so strongly connected to his work that it would be hard to avoid looking like a slavish imitator in doing it. This isn't a problem in doing, for example, sonnets and sestinas, since the identity of the originators has (as far as i know) been lost. Of course, there is the interesting stuff that happens when someone tries to use an existing form, gets it wrong, and creates something new. (I've been accused of getting my musical ideas by a consistent pattern of misunderstandings; what the hell, it works.) I get some flack from fellow poets (or, well, fellow people-who-write-things-that-they-read-at-open-mikes) for openly admitting that what I do is directly influenced by this or that other writer (Cage, Mac Low, Karl Shapiro, etc). Most of them seem to think that they are being totally original in writing their narrative vernacular three-minute-long free verse. *sigh* ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/ Online Representative, Austin International Poetry Festival \| / Joe Zitt's Home Page\ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 14:59:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: writings and last poets Comments: cc: maria damon >what is and how does one subscribe, if it's a list?--md is a list that carl peters started with much discussion & input from cris cheek. Some of this discussion was on a while back. It focuses on visual & sound poetry. It's pretty quiet by standards. To subscribe: send the following command in email to "Majordomo@sfu.ca": subscribe wr-eye-tings followed by your email address on the same line. The Last Poets passed through town this winter, but I didn't like the relatively new record very much, so I didn't go. Sounds like I made a mistake. I hope they continue to tour. Thanks for the report on their performance. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 22:50:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "GWYN M. MCVAY" Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms In-Reply-To: <199508012124.QAA13503@zoom.bga.com> On Tue, 1 Aug 1995, Joseph Zitt wrote: > I've thought about this a lot (from my usual non-degreed, layman's > position). One problem shows up in how you posed the issue: the new > forms get viewed as the "turf" of one writer or another (in your > examples, Hejinian or Watten), and to use them is viewed as copping > another's style. I've kicked around the idea of using Cage's mesostic > form, but the method is so strongly connected to his work that it > would be hard to avoid looking like a slavish imitator in doing it. Hi, list. Joseph Zitt raises a good point. Are such allegations raised more often against people who work with, for lack of a better word, "experimental" poetries? When do Cage's mesostics or the Hejinian page from _My Life_ become formal "public domain" like the sestina? Gwyn McVay ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 00:34:58 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms Herb's asking some useful questions. >Think how different "our" literary culture would be if many writers took on >the formal rhythms of Lyn Hejinian's "My Life," the five-line stanzas of >Barrett Watten's "Progress," or other structures & forms from language >works of the 1980s, just as many people write sonnet sequences or workshop >poems. > >Could these idiosyncratic forms become idioms in any functional way? What >would it take for this to happen? Would it be a good thing? I've had conversations with Bruce Andrews during which he's asserted 'free improv' to be a 'folk' form - certainly some of its more baleful mannerisms nowadays (although there remain outstanding practitioners) are little different in their stilted 'mimesis' than the proverbial finger in the ear of the 'do you ken John Peel' 'folk' performer. But at what point does tradition become perceptible as such? It's a very slippery and therefore imperative question. Many live in cultures and respond to communitites that tend (unwisely?) to foreground 'origination'. Many live in cultures and respond to communities that tend to value ways to take traditions into the future. Does the compliment of imitation / conscious influence reveal the arrival of tradition? What values do different communitites place on this process? Or is the prevailing emphasis remaindered on the basis of discontinuous disposable 'new product' consumerism? Curious paradoxes here. The current Renga fever is a case in point: collaborative branching processes that discuss community and difference as they emerge, through considerable sometimes perhaps tolerant investments of creative 'belief', into 'public' space and shared time. A collective exploration of formal potential. Conscious formation (intention) of community is present here - resonant with Spicer and also SF Poets Theatre and Poets Conference in the UK? Has composition by chance become a 'folk' art? Is Mail Art a 'folk' art. Is Jazz 'folk'? Sparks across the seemingly 'parallel' tracks? And lurking defintions of community and culture. As 'polis' entropes towards diaspora and decentralisation. As orgies of fragmentation become the norm. whoa! love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 00:04:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marisa A Januzzi Subject: Gabriellesque In-Reply-To: <199507221047.DAA22841@ix5.ix.netcom.com> Hi there-- I got paid (!!!!!), so anyone who wants the interview can just ask me for a copy of it backchannel-- as long as we remain in the single digits (#'s of requests) I can handle the postage. BTW-- did anyone else see the New York Times article on Stockhausen's latest piece, written for the Arditti quartet quartered and vaulted aloft in four miked helicopters? Apparently the effects upon descent were wonderful...... go aereal renga bye for now-- Marisa On Sat, 22 Jul 1995, Ron Silliman wrote: > Gabrielle, > > "If anyone wants the transcript (Loy/Vas Dias), just send me > postage..." > > So where do we send this postage? Do get back up on email. It's very > confusing to see you channeled hither and yon. > > All best, > Ron > rsillima@ix.netcom.com > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 04:50:03 EDT Reply-To: beard@metdp1.met.co.nz Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: beard@MET.CO.NZ Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms Herb wrote: >Think how different "our" literary culture would be if many writers took on >the formal rhythms of Lyn Hejinian's "My Life," the five-line stanzas of >Barrett Watten's "Progress," or other structures & forms from language >works of the 1980s, just as many people write sonnet sequences or workshop >poems. >Could these idiosyncratic forms become idioms in any functional way? What >would it take for this to happen? Would it be a good thing? I think that it does happen, if not with the precise structures then with the _concept_ of idiosyncratic forms, and certainly with vocabulary. For example, what are the poetic effects of using abbreviations (such as "yr", "sd", "th" etc.)? I think they may have originally given an anti-"poetic" memo-like quality to the writing (are they derived from telegrams?), but when I read them in contemporary work, they appear to me as an idiom, almost a clichi. They say "I wanna be Olson/Creeley". Perhaps we'll see internet abbreviations (IMHO, BTW, RTFM etc) appearing in poetry soon. We probably already do. >It's simply a different >thing for someone to write a canzone, a sestina, or a sonnet sequence >several hundred years after it was a functional poetic form within the >culture. It's no longer part of a living culture, it's a marketing >strategy. I agree that writing a sonnet sequence now is a different act from writing one several hundred years ago when such structures were de rigeur. I'm not sure, however, that the sonnet ever ceased to be "living culture" or "a functional poetic form". An art form doesn't have to be either part of mass culture or avant garde in order to remain alive. People are still writing symphonies after Cage and sestinas after Olson. Even if one does choose a form that has fallen into disuse within one's culture or was never part of it (such as a ghazal), there are a range of possibilities other than "marketing strategy". Maybe one is, consciously or otherwise, placing oneself within a tradition by writing a Petrarchan sonnet, a Ginsbergian rant, or yet another Catullus poem. All that one is doing is saying "this is where I'm coming from", in the same way that a hip-hop artist might sample a James Brown riff. Or one could be putting forward a challenge to that tradition, in the way that Michele Leggott's sonnet sequence _Blue Irises_ challenges the tradition of the male sonneteer. By using a form or genre, one's poem can economically allude to everything written in that style, in the way that Merwins _Elegy_ speaks of and to every elegy that has been written. In either case, the form is saying something. Form signifies. Form is never _less_ than an extension of content. The final option is to use a "dead" form purely for its formal possibilities. Of course, the reader is free to read homage or challenge into your poem, even if you'd only thought "Ooh, I like that syllabic pattern!" when you chose a 14-th century Moroccan courtship song as your model. Anyway, what's wrong with a marketing strategy? :-) Tom. ______________________________________________________________________________ I/am a background/process, shrunk to an icon. | Tom Beard I am/a dark place. | beard@metdp1.met.co.nz I am less/than the sum of my parts... | Auckland, New Zealand I am necessary/but not sufficient, | http://metcon.met.co.nz/ and I shall teach the stars to fall | nwfc/beard/www/hallway.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 22:31:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: rengala >> > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> > >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> > >First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> > >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> > >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> > >The caravan of windows to what they flee >> > >Rack of lambent jingoism, carving the exemplar's demise >> > Hurricane Eden and evening is nigh []~`\)<- >> Inside, inside! This syndetic material is killing me. A blase malediction presses outstretched ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 05:41:31 EDT Reply-To: beard@metdp1.met.co.nz Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: beard@MET.CO.NZ Subject: Re: the feminine Maria wrote: >these denominations, "feminine" and "masculine," it seems, are simply >ways of noting --or creating --difference. masculinity is associated w/ >aggression, femininity with docility or gentleness, without much thoughtful >attention to the empirical world. it's just a crude shorthand for perceived >opposition. and Steve replied that there were three options: >1. To keep them but divorce them from gender altogether (as yin and yang >originally referred not to gender but to the mossy unmossy side of a tree). >This is what I was trying to get to, and I didn't quite make it in my post, >which is what riled you, I think. >2. To keep them in a concept of gender but to expand beyond a binary >opposition of genders (I just read an article last month in the S.F. Bay >Guardian [I believe; maybe it was the Weekly] about certain geneticists who >believe that, biologically speaking, there are perhaps 5 human genders, and >Dodie's quoted material seems to me to dovetail with this notion in more >ontological terms. >3. Forget the whole thing and go back to our caves. Well, I hope it's not (3). There was a flamewar on the wine mailing list a few months back when someone used the word "feminine" to describe a wine (I think it was a red Burgundy), and I think that no matter how hard we try the first option, the gender connotations will cling on to the words, at least for the next century or so. One cannot take a word apart like a car engine, replace an old part that rattles and belches malodorous smoke, then put the whole thing back together. It's a pity, because I think that I've a pretty good idea what a "feminine" wine tastes and smells like, and hence it would seem a useful term. But I find the implications of calling a floral, delicate Beaujolais "feminine" and a hefty, muscular Shiraz "masculine" somewhat offensive. It might be better to define "feminine" as "having properties analogous to the social norms for women in mid-20th Century Western culture" (and similar for "masculine"), but words have a habit of wandering away from their "official" definitions. Get back here! Perhaps we could just use the terms "aggressive" vs "gentle", if that's what we mean. We'd lose a lot of the subtle connotations of fem vs masc, but we're not going to imply that all men are aggressive and all women gentle just by using the words outside of a gender context. Maybe this is similar to the "soul" debate: if a word is likely to cause misunderstanding or offense, then perhaps it is wiser to avoid using that word with a given audience, and find a substitute. As an aside, I once sat (at my employers' request) a personality test called (I think) the California Personality Inventory. After answering 400 True/False questions, I was summed up as ten numbers, each of which placed me somewhere on a scale between two binary opposites. One of these scales was labelled either Masculine/Feminine or Task-oriented/People-oriented (the latter is now the preferred labelling). Interestingly, I was considered unusually feminine. Tom. ______________________________________________________________________________ I/am a background/process, shrunk to an icon. | Tom Beard I am/a dark place. | beard@metdp1.met.co.nz I am less/than the sum of my parts... | Auckland, New Zealand I am necessary/but not sufficient, | http://metcon.met.co.nz/ and I shall teach the stars to fall | nwfc/beard/www/hallway.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 03:17:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: folks & forms Herb Levy wrote: >While it's true that older folk forms have become increasingly calcified, I >think this is more part of an ongoing historic process than a result of >"the 20th Century." Once people are writing in a form that they learn by >rote rather than through an active community practice, you've got problems. Herb, certainly it is "an ongoing historic process" but I wonder if this "calcification is increased in 20th century capitalist society, particularly due to this question of "active community practice." I mean it seems no accident that various, often economically marginalized "subcultures" wld be the lively areas-- places, perhaps, where community & therefore individual expression is not so proscribed. Though that's what you seem to be saying, sort of, in the rest of your post. But this question of taking on the forms of _My Life_ or _Progress_, well (1) I think it is happening, quite a bit. There are a lot of good little magazines publishing tons of folks influenced by language (almost put the word influenced in quotes, but why? Yeah I'm influenced & I'm a ding dadd proud of it) -- some of them wld be _Proliferation_, _Impercipient_, _Phoebe_, _Object_, _Avec_, _Black Bread_, _Antyneme_, _Prosodia_, _Open 24 Hours_, & even, of course, _Apex of the M_ (they just choose to articulate it in a more oedipal manner) (2) This question of whether it wld be good, or is good: aesthetically, yes, I think it's good, more people trying more kinds of things, but I'm not sure I wld extend that to any form being "intrinsically" good-- I can imagine these modes of writing becoming accepted, canonized, codified, as much as any other kind of writing, which wouldn't be good. In that situation one might make the radical gesture of writing a canzone. Berrigan & then Mayer made the sonnet new. At the same time there is the aspect of the aesthetic we're discussing articulated in, say, L.H.'s "The Rejection of Closure" which might be, & has been, fodder for an argument that this aesthetic is inherently superior. I'm not entirely unconvinced by that, it is the aesthetic, broadly speaking, I choose to work in. I suppose it's a matter of art's ability to change our perceptions of the world. & whether "open form" is good, or better. . . I don't think one can hierarchize it, that's probably what we can/should/might learn from it. Does "open form" spell "open mind," *really*?-- there are foolish folks as well as fabulous people writing in these forms, maybe this is our open fate. --Rod Herb Levy also wrote: >Think how different "our" literary culture would be if many writers took on >the formal rhythms of Lyn Hejinian's "My Life," the five-line stanzas of >Barrett Watten's "Progress," or other structures & forms from language >works of the 1980s, just as many people write sonnet sequences or workshop >poems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 03:58:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: folk rhythms & mesostics I've written some things using mesostics. One was a writing through _Fun with Dick & Jane_, not exactly something one can easily imagine J.C. doing. I don't think we should worry abt being thought derivative, every writer is. But it will be new, not as a result of a glorification of the new, but as a result of occupying a different time. Stein sd something like that in one of the Lectures in America. It wld be interesting to see a writer come along & choose the mesostic form exclusively, really dedicate themselves to it, in the wake of what John did, & to read their work in relation to him. Re whether such allegations are raised more against "experimantal" writers with regard to imitation. Maybe. But hey, go 'head, allegate. It's whether the work's doing something or not that matters I think. I think these forms become public domain as soon as they're made use of. Maybe we should write a "renga" in sentence form on here called "Our Life." --Rod Joe Zitt wrote: >new forms get viewed as the "turf" of one writer or another (in your >examples, Hejinian or Watten), and to use them is viewed as copping >another's style. I've kicked around the idea of using Cage's mesostic form, but the method is so strongly connected to his work that >it >would be hard to avoid looking like a slavish imitator in doing it. >This isn't a problem in doing, for example, sonnets and sestinas, >since the identity of the originators has (as far as i know) been >lost. Gwyn Mcvay wrote: >Joseph Zitt raises a good point. Are such allegations raised more often >against people who work with, for lack of a better word, "experimental" >poetries? When do Cage's mesostics or the Hejinian page from _My Life_ >become formal "public domain" like the sestina? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 22:01:47 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: Renga 1 In-Reply-To: <950730130027_126320228@aol.com> On Sun, 30 Jul 1995, Jordan Davis. wrote: > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three > Something has changed in the nature of friendship But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 22:14:52 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: Renga 1 In-Reply-To: <199507310720.AAA26333@bob.indirect.com> On Sun, 30 Jul 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >The caravan of windows to what they flee >These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 02:17:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Innovations & Traditions "A substantial number of the people on aren't on , and it seemed that people on both lists might have something interesting to add to this topic." Some of us don't even know what wr-eye-tings is (or are). Please elucidate! Ron rsillima@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 10:25:42 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R I Caddel Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 31 Jul 1995 to 1 Aug 1995 In-Reply-To: <199508020737.IAA22453@tucana.dur.ac.uk> I've been away for some weeks and am just picking up the ripples of past conversations (rather like walking into a pub just before closing time). FOLK/RHYTHM Recognising the tendency of "professional" folk music to ossify these days, we must recognise that it were'nt always so, and indeed on some occasions it was the transmission process which caused ossification to set in: c.1900 Cecil Sharp was having his transcriptions greeted with academic incredulity: one musicologist actually said "no peasant could think in compound time". Despite the mass of evidence to the contrary. Being based Suffolk, Chris, you might know the Ship Inn at Blaxhall - famous folksinging community right up to the sixties, totally ignoring (and ignored by) the neighbouring haut musique of Britten etc. It's described in G.Dunn: The Fellowship of Song (1980) (more of a sociological survey). The point is that the singers of Blaxhall & environs wouldn't just copy songs they'd heard from other people: they felt they had to "move into them" somehow, make them their own (am I out of line to relate this to the "bardic" transmission process? Certainly it relates to my own abhorance of "cover bands"...). This process was a lengthy one, could take months or years until someone felt able to sing one they'd had from another, and involved varying words (obviously), tune and rhythm. The rhythms and inflections they used (as for all of us) came from around them. So, the songs are organic and have a life of their own - until the folk orthodoxy comes along to hammer these things into the "correct" versions... NATIONAL POETRY WEEK I'm sorry to see the US is going through this: I'd hoped the dismal flop of our own National Poetry Day (shopwindow for the Glynn Maxwells and Simon Armitages of this world) would be the end of it. I assume it's being sponsored by the major publishers as a hype opportunity? Good luck to anyone who organises anything outside that context: over here we advised people to stay indoors and wait till it passed. There was even a National Poetry Day Defence Committee (based in Cambridge) which put out some "How to survive National Poetry Day" flyers. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx x x x Richard Caddel, E-mail: R.I.Caddel @ durham.ac.uk x x Durham University Library, Phone: 0191 374 3044 x x Stockton Rd. Durham DH1 3LY Fax: 0191 374 7481 x x x x "Words! Pens are too light. Take a chisel to write." x x - Basil Bunting x x x xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 09:34:23 EDT Reply-To: beard@metdp1.met.co.nz Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: beard@MET.CO.NZ Subject: Corrections: in the beginning was MS Word. Oh well, I'm afraid I've got nothing to say at the moment about folk music, the feminine, or the soul, so there's nothing for it but to post some poetry :-) Based upon the idea of phonetic translation, I tried feeding some foreign- -language poetry through my word-processor's spelling checker, and seeing what IT thought the correct spellings should be. The results were intriguing, if only for finding out the bizzare vocabs that these programs have - how did "Hyundai" get in there?!? Some of them also came out with an, ahem, anatomical bent. Most of the originals should be quite familiar. The first one is especially easy to guess; with the last two, I've also "corrected" the titles to make it easier. Noel mezzo dell caiman die nostril vita my retrieve per ulna salvo Oscar she lad dirtier via era smarter. Ash quarto a dire quail era I cosier dour ester salvo selvage I aspire a forte she noel penises rhino lab Peru! Taunt a amore she pogo I pie Morse; ma per tartar deli bean chi's vie trivia, dirt dell alter chose chi VHF scrota. Quad lei cell bass eat loud pees come urn coverall Sour lest geminate on prior ox longs ennui's, Eat queue die horizon embarrassment tout let cereal Ill onus verse urn juror plus tryst queue lease units; Quad lay terry set change in urn cachet humped, Our Esperanto, comma tune shaver sours, Zen vat butternut less moors do son aisle timed It SAE cognisant lay teeth a does palinodes pours; Quad lay plume elating sees immunises trainees Dune vase prison mite loess barium, Eat quo people mute infamies arraigned Vienna tenure sets filets auk fond die noose cervix, Des cloches tout a coup stunt aver furry It lancet veers Leo coil urn affect Harlem, Heinz queer deeps esprit's errands it sane party Quiz see mutant a gender opine tremens. - Set be longs core billiards, sand tambourines nix mosque, Defoliant sentiment Danes moon ammo; lessor, Venice, pleasure, it lingoes aorta, despotic, Surf mown crane incline pliant son drupe nor. Precise I ell aide Sue lung die persimmon Prices toccata vines poor urn amphibian sender do crystallise I laurels. Ell silence sin esters, Hyundai deal sonnet, cake donned eel mar bate I chanter us gnocchi Elena do peaches. On loss pieces dye lab sierra loose carbines doormen guarantee lasso blinks tortes downed vixen louse ingress. Herb's tag Heir: is sit zest. Deer sombre war sheer gross. Leg denizen station auk sine sauna neurone, undo of den florin lass die windy louse. Befell den lesson further vole zoo sienna; gibe inhere notch sew suede lichen tag, drainage she fur volley dung hind undue jade die latest Sussex in den shrewd weenie. Where jets Kevin hauls hat, baud Sikh keenness mohair. Wear jets alien sit, wired is flange bellboy, wiry wheaten, lesion, lunge brief shriven undo wild in den alley hid undue her unhurried wander, wean die bladder tribune. ______________________________________________________________________________ I/am a background/process, shrunk to an icon. | Tom Beard I am/a dark place. | beard@metdp1.met.co.nz I am less/than the sum of my parts... | Auckland, New Zealand I am necessary/but not sufficient, | http://metcon.met.co.nz/ and I shall teach the stars to fall | nwfc/beard/www/hallway.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 02:41:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms Cris, T'ain't a folk art until the communist party adopts it as a means of reachin' Da People. May orgies of fragmentation become your norm, Ron rsillima@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 02:52:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Renga 1 In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 02:54:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Renga 1 In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three Something has changed in the nature of friendship But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 09:12:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms In-Reply-To: <199508020941.CAA09949@ix7.ix.netcom.com> from "Ron Silliman" at Aug 2, 95 02:41:53 am cris, obviously none of those avant-garde forms you mention have become "folk" art. However, one of the classic 20C avant-garde techniques, the Surrealists' exquisite corpse (as drawing or language-game) has achieved some kind of status as generally available social entertainment. (but obviously the game of telephone kids play is older than the cadavre exquis). Pierre ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Poems are sketches for existence." Dept. of English | --Paul Celan SUNY Albany | Albany NY 12222 | "Revisionist plots tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | are everywhere and our pronouns haven't yet email: | drawn up plans for the first coup." joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --J.H. Prynne ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 09:28:32 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: Free Verse Soot David, Jonathan et alia, The ancient Greeks did not distinguish as we do between art and technology (techne). Is that what D Thomas was playing off of in the line that was quoted. Now, would these same ancients have linked belief to making? I think so, at least in principle. So where does this leave us? Burt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 10:36:26 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: Re: Renga 1 Comments: To: Ron Silliman On 2 Aug 95 at 2:52, Ron Silliman wrote: > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The caravan of windows to what they flee > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing In the changing wind, dollops of wordfoam spinning toward the veil ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/ Online Representative, Austin International Poetry Festival \| / Joe Zitt's Home Page\ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 11:41:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome In-Reply-To: <9508012118.AA22427@infolink.infolink.morris.mn.us> On Tue, 1 Aug 1995, Jonathan Brannen wrote: > So, David, you don't like the term "art" because avoidance of mystification > is lost by its use? The difficulty in defining "art" is because art is > fluid by nature (i.e. constantly changing). I'm sorry that this lack of > certitude causes you discomfort. Any useful tips on how to deal with > life's other uncertainies? None at all: I was using "mystification" in a political sense, not in the sense of uncertainty. Therefore I think you misread my point, or perhaps I didn't state it well. I do not avoid the term "art" because it's "fluid by nature," but rather because its associations in the case of poetry so often lead to a variety of forms of copping out, throwing up of the hands when it comes to describing how poetry operates in culture. This is NOT a rejection of fluidity. So what if art is constantly changing? So's everything else, and I (obviously) don't avoid language entirely. Rather, I find myself pulled into a game of artistic fort/da whenever I encounter the term "art" used actively ("here" art is, "here" art isn't). And it's tiring. David don't play that game. My point is similar to the one Charles Bernstein made some time ago (was it at the Alabama symposium?) about preferring the term "writer" to "poet": poet has a lot of baggage, or did then. (I don't know if he still holds to this; he seems to have gotten more poet-friendly in this regard of late.) I avoid the term "art" because it's not a construction I'm comfortable with, not because art changes. In fact, change is precisely the point: I find the inherited vocabulary of "art" (that is, an aesthetic vocabulary) inadequate for describing historical changes in poetry. You can go ahead and use the term -- I'm speaking only for myself. For me, nothing is gained by the term, and much is lost. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg The moment is at hand. University Writing Program Take one another Duke University and eat. Durham, NC 27708 kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 10:43:24 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: Renga 1 adding to Ron Silliman's addition -- In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The caravan of windows to what they flee > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 11:57:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms In-Reply-To: <199508012124.QAA13503@zoom.bga.com> On Tue, 1 Aug 1995, Joseph Zitt wrote: > Of course, there is the interesting stuff that happens when someone > tries to use an existing form, gets it wrong, and creates something > new. (I've been accused of getting my musical ideas by a consistent > pattern of misunderstandings; what the hell, it works.) That's Harold Bloom's theories in a nutshell. ;-) Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg The moment is at hand. University Writing Program Take one another Duke University and eat. Durham, NC 27708 kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 12:53:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: Free Verse Soot In-Reply-To: <00994442.CC6E2EF8.3@admin.njit.edu> On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT wrote: > The ancient Greeks did not distinguish as we do between art and technology > (techne). Is that what D Thomas was playing off of in the line that was > quoted. Now, would these same ancients have linked belief to making? I think > so, at least in principle. So where does this leave us? Could you repost the Thomas quote? It seemed to have slipped by me. You translate *techne* as technology? Not as our technology certainly, but... Anyway, good point; as for me, it leaves me happily blurring the line between art and, say, gardening. Or using a jackhammer. I'm reminded of the continuity -- not division -- posited by Elaine Scarry in her book *The Body in Pain* between "making-up" and "making-real." What others are calling "art" straddles both these categories. But so do most other things. Scarry's is a way of talking that avoids the art/not art division yet manages to make some profound connections about culture as a whole. Speaking of which, has anybody read this? I've often thought this was utterly brilliant, the book to beat in recent philosophy and a possible ground for a whole theory of culture, but I've not had the energy to write much on it directly aside from a scattering here and there. But I seem to be the only one. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg The moment is at hand. University Writing Program Take one another Duke University and eat. Durham, NC 27708 kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 11:52:52 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three Something has changed in the nature of friendship Renegade and flightless, board of common prayer aside Retires a diplomat with "the Prussian blues" - misconstrual ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 14:05:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <9508021752.AA74967@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca> On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, Louis Cabri wrote: > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three > Something has changed in the nature of friendship > Renegade and flightless, board of common prayer aside > Retires a diplomat with "the Prussian blues" - misconstrual but doesn't bother to misconstrue itself and then ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 19:04:30 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms Yes Ric, know something of the Blaxhall Ship's crew. Was drinking Barley Mow at The Eel's Foot just last Saturday, a drunken stagger of an environs away, where Jumbo Brightwell held court with his elder brother Velvet during the '50s. His LP on Topic was titled 'Songs From The Eel's Foot' - how about that for a response to 'where does it come from?'. Know singer who travelled and sang regularly with Brightwell. One night he heard a 'version' of Jack Barleycorn he'd never heard the like of before - came, 'out of the blue'. Asked if he could have the song and got words in post on back of old birthday card - says you have to try to embody a new melody like trajectory of lightning. Only version remotely like it - even from Brightwell - he ever heard. Given some of the house ales in these parts who knows. Memory and event in the compost of time. A different process from the bardic apprenticeship, which is closer to drum knowledge as Arona N'Diaye described his learning to me once - given rhythm (aged 6 or so) and return to repeat that rhythm, hold it 'down' for 30-40 minutes without letting it 'go'. The requirement to do that, sent away with same rhythm if not, before being given another rhythm. A thorough and prolonged process of embodiment. Living traditions - social gifts - folk math - ephemera - this list. love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 19:04:43 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms >May orgies of fragmentation become your norm, Do Ron, I misheard August bodies bareing their navigable standards love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 13:13:05 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Power to the spider, virtuous in act if not intent Sight over sound for "justice," O cubes of Cuba! Where ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 13:29:29 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: rengala In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee Rack of lambent jingoism, carving the exemplar's demise Hurricane Eden and evening is nigh []~`\)<- Inside, inside! This syndetic material is killing me. A blase malediction presses outstretched Icons of address: "Etiquette, please!" Trainslated said ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 19:51:12 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms Hi Pierre, guess I'd argue that Jazz has generated forms that have become 'folk', much as Blues and Rock have also? In poetry I'd suggest 'Hallmark' (i know we've had that discussion already) and Slams and that Renga form that evolved on the Buffalo Poetics list sometime in the mid 1990s. How those, at first tentative, variegated leaf forms became whole branches of prosodic community generating rangey glossolalia among social migrations at early twenty first century gatherings is one of the most notable examples of the movement from written to oral I know. It suggests that writing affects speech with more subtlety than formerly thought. love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 16:13:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <9508021913.AA56214@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca> On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, Louis Cabri wrote: > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The caravan of windows to what they flee > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > Power to the spider, virtuous in act if not intent > Sight over sound for "justice," O cubes of Cuba! Where would calmness be without the stain of possession and ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 14:19:38 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: renga 1 In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing What a handjob, eh. Don't worry the fallacy, wit will shrivel it. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 16:20:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: rengala In-Reply-To: <9508021929.AA19802@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca> On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, Louis Cabri wrote: > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The caravan of windows to what they flee > Rack of lambent jingoism, carving the exemplar's demise > Hurricane Eden and evening is nigh []~`\)<- > Inside, inside! This syndetic material is killing me. > A blase malediction presses outstretched > Icons of address: "Etiquette, please!" Trainslated said ka mi zu --"north of the genitals and holding" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 17:07:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: renga 1 In-Reply-To: <9508022019.AA62575@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca> On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, Louis Cabri wrote: > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The caravan of windows to what they flee > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > What a handjob, eh. Don't worry the fallacy, wit will > shrivel it or my name is not Imitates-Brown-Ear ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 16:40:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Brannen Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome David, I understand your position much better since you've restated it. The term "art" does carry a lot of baggage much of which one would prefer not to be burdened with. "Art" does elude easy definition which makes it vulnerable to misrepresentation. Certainly the freshman Republican representatives have found it an easy target. I don't mean to align you with that group, but I do question the wisdom of surrendering the use of the term "art" rather than reclaiming it. I raise this question for myself precisely because I get bored too easily to see the appeal of defining what art is or isn't and what is or isn't art. Best, Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 17:01:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Brannen Subject: Re: Free Verse Soot David, The Thomas quote was: "The tricks are easy, it's the art that's difficult." In context he was saying that it's easy to learn how to write a poem, it's hard to write a good one. Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 22:00:19 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: other folk OK I'll go right over the top, since I'm heading that way with Jazz and Blues and Rock as twentieth century urban 'folk'. I'd like to throw in 'raves' (don't know if you have quite the euro fever in the states) / 'football chants' and maybe sports chants and expressions more generally such as the reinforced society of the spectacle critique evidenced in the 'mexican wave' / 'graffitti' / 'rap' / 'calypso' / 'carnival' (anyone read the excellent 'Carnival in Romans' by Emmanuel Le Roy Ladurie - I know it's another source of carnival - when a peasants' revolt both succeeded and was then in turn violently repressed during the course of one long carnival celebration with much Machiavellian use of mask) / 'surfboarding' (etc) and their 'folk' 'arts' and specialist languages cf Kathy Bigelow's movie 'Point Break' (or something close to that title?) and Michael Davidson's article in Poetics Journal / 'the Aids Quilt' / various campaigns 'greenham women', 'dongas' (you'll have your own examples) / MUD and MOOs / tattoos and piercings (a paradox herein) / & & & ? ? ? what else This could easily lead back into discussions of sampling and copyright. How about common ownership and community versioning as oppositional forces within cultures fetishised onto the chimaera of 'origination'? Not proposing anything here other than continuing and rangey discussions love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 09:53:20 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome as with other discussions, e.g. of "literature" , "art" appears to be the term for that which has been or is in the process of being considered for a canon. I call my "wrtitings" "Art" or "Poems", when I want them to be considered for a canon. But a message about plums on the fridge door...? Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 18:21:49 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three Something has changed in the nature of friendship Renegade and flightless, board of common prayer aside Retires a diplomat with "the Prussian blues" - misconstrual but doesn't bother to misconstrue itself and then drinkin' eel foot at the barley mow just last saturday i detected an anomalous rhythmicity nuncupating our otherwise tearfully drear decorum of the dead letter dance ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 18:21:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: Renga 1 >adding to Ron Silliman's addition -- > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> The caravan of windows to what they flee >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 18:21:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome In-Reply-To: from "David Kellogg" at Aug 2, 95 11:41:40 am I have found that the only people who avoid words like "art" on egalitarian terms are the privileged, university profs and the like. My brother-in-law wouldnt. And his job is putting together RVs. He would never call that art, either. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 13:42:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: AWOL: Extra August Happenings List Comments: To: Mark Roberts Extra August Happenings!!! Due to AWOL being off line for most of July a few events slipped through our= fingers. This extra posting for August will help to bring us (and you) up= to date.=20 Australian Writing OnLine AWOL Happenings. A monthly guide to readings, book launches, conferences and other events relating to Australian literature both within Australia and overseas. If you have any item which you would like included in future listings please contact AWOL. AWOL is setting up a 'Virtual Bookshop' for Australian small magazines and presses. This will take the form of regular newsletters (which will be available both on the net and by mail and fax) which will pre/review new publications. This titles will then be able to be ordered by mail or fax. Associated with our Virtual Bookshop is our Sydney distribution service for small presses. Please contact us for further details if you want to distribute your publication to bookshops in Sydney. AWOL can be contacted by email at MRoberts@extro.ucc.su.oz.au, by writing to AWOL, PO Box 333, Concord NSW 2137, Australia, by faxing 61 2 747 2802 or by phoning 61 2 747 5667. AWOL posts are archived on the WWW at the following address http://www.anatomy.su.oz.au/danny/books/index.html then click on Australian Writing OnLine. ************************************************************************ READINGS VICTORIA La Mama Poetica, Monday, August 21st 8.00pm featuring Mal Morgan, Katherine= Gallagher=20 (who is now residing in the U.K. so this is a rare opportunity to hear her= latest work) and=20 cabaret artist, Barbara Quicksand. For details contact Catherine Bateson Ph= (03) 9383 5677. ******************************************************************* QUEENSLAND WRITERS' CENTRE EVENTS EXCITING WRITING: READINGS OF NEW WORKS AT THE QUEENSLAND=20 WRITERS' CENTRE Tuesday 22 August Vox Populi with Peter Anderson. Phil Brown, and Jackie= Mckimmie.=20 Chaired by Michael Doneman. $10 for (QWC members) $15 (non members).=20 Ph 07 839 1243 for details. Coming up on 3 October. 7pm....WARANA: PARADISE OR PARANOIA with Andrew=20 McGahn, Robbie Lappan, Matthew Condon, Fran Ross, Marcus Gibson, Michael= Richards,=20 Gary Crew and Laurie Muller. This reading takes place at the Grand Orbit= nightclub and tickets=20 must be booked before the event. Contact QWC for further details. BRISBANE: CITY OF WORDS Brisbane: City of Words is an 8 week course beginning on Wednesday 9 August= which will take participants on a journey through contemporary novels set= largely in Brisbane. Taught by Vivienne Muller and Adam Shoemaker the= course will look at Jessica Anderson Tirra Lirra by the River, David Malouf= Johnno & 12 Edmonstone Street, Sam Watson The Kadaicha Sung, Angelika Fremd= The Glass Inferno, Venero Armanno Romeo of the Underworld, Janet Turner= Hospital Charades and the Last Magician, Andrew McGahan Praise and Rosie= Scott Lives on Fire. The course will take the form of lectures, discussion, text video and= interview materials. It will be held on Wednesday evenings from 6-8pm at= the Queensland Writers' Centre 535 Wickham Terrace Brisbane 4000. Cost is= $120 (QWC members) $160 (non members) includes the cost of a special Word= City Dinner during Warana Writers' Week in the company of one of the= featured authors. =46or further details contact QWC (07) 839 1243 Ph, or (07) 839 1245 fax. CHILDREN'S BOOK WEEK 1995 21-25 AUGUST: VISIT BY GED MAYBURY Ged Maybury is one of New Zealand's most successful and established writers= of young adult science fiction novels. His work includes Timetwister,= Silicone Stew, The Triggerstone and the Star Tropper Series (all published= by Ashton Scholastic). His Robemasters of Noogiya series is being published= by Harper Collins. Triggerstone, his latest book, has been nominated for= the New Zealand AIM Children's book awards. Ged Maybury will be available at the Queensland Writers' Centre from Monday= 21 August to Friday 25 August for four sessions daily. Cost $65 (QWC= members) and $75 (non-members) each. Pre-paid bookings only please. For= further details contact QWC. NOW AVAILABLE FROM THE QUEENSLAND WRITERS' CENTRE...... HANDBOOK FOR= QUEENSLAND WRITERS.=20 Contents include Preparation, Representation, Professional Issues and= Development and Funding. Cost $10 plus $1.50 postage for QWC members 0r= $15 plus $1.50 for non members. For more information contact the QWC. ******************************************************************* EVENTS AT THE NSW WRITERS' CENTRE =46EATURE READINGS AT THE NSW WRITERS' CENTRE=20 =46eature Readings will replace the Rozelle Readings. The August lineup is= Daniel Harbour, Patricia Gaut, Matthew Holt and Sabrina Achilles. Friday 25= August 7.30pm Wine/Supper $5 and $3 (conc). NSW Writers' Centre, Rozelle= Hospital Grounds, Balmain Road Rozelle. For Further information contact= NSWWC (02) 5559757 or fax (02)8181327 TEN WEEK WRITING COURSE WITH TUTOR AND CONVENOR SUSAN HAMPTON This ten week course will cover any type of writing from prose, poetry and= scripts to non-fiction and monologues. The first meeting will be held on= Thursday 31 August from 6.30pm to 9.30pm. Cost $150 (NSWWC members) $200= (non-members) for booking information contact the centre (02) 5559757 or= fax (02)8181327. COMING UP AT THE NSW WRITERS' CENTRE....SPRING WRITING WEEKEND a two day= literary festival featuring a mix of established and emerging writers.= September 16-17 at the NSWWC. For further details contact NSWWC (02)= 5559757 or fax (02)8181327.=20 *************************************************************** CONFERENCES INTERNATIONAL P.E.N. 62nd WORLD CONGRESS 26 October - 1 November, 1995 at the Esplanade Hotel, Fremantle, W.A. This Congress will be one of the most important literary and cultural events= ever staged in Australia. The Congress will seek to explore the issue of= freedom of speech in relation to different cultural contexts. It will also= include literary readings, discussions and performances of Aboriginal= culture, an International Quiz Night, a Hypothetical and many events= designed to be fun! Speakers will include Ronald Harwood (England), Goenawan Mohamad= (Indonesia), Keki Daruwalla (India), George Aditjondro (Indonesia),= Satendra Nandan (Australia-Fiji), Samina Yasmeen (Australia-Pakistan), Beth= Yahp (Australia-Malaysia), Andrey Voznesensky (Russia), Ilsa Sharp (Austral= ia-Singapore), Sally Morgan and Jill Milroy, Elizabeth Jolley, Judith= Rodriguez, Tom Shapcott, and many more.=20 The Congress is open to anyone interested in literature and culture, and in= the issue of Freedom of Speech. For the full programme and other details,= please contact Promaco Conventions, Ph. 09. 364.8311, Fax 09.316.1453; or= your local PEN Centre, or the Perth PEN Centre, PO. Box 1131 Subiaco,= Australia 6008, Ph. & Fax: 09.381.8306. Expressions of interest in= membership of PEN are also warmly welcomed, and should be addressed to the= PEN Centre. PEN works for freedom of speech and on behalf of writers in pri= son. COUNTRY FESTIVAL OF WRITING SHEPPARTON VICTORIA 25 -27 August Readings and workshops by Elizabeth Jolly, Liam Davison, Myron= Lysenko, Maureen McCarthy, Judith Rodriguez, Georgina Savage and more. For= program details and booking form send SSAE to Country Festival of Writing,= Box 2115, Shepparton Victoria 3632 or contact Hugh Oakes on (058) 9216663. SECOND NATIONAL BOOK SUMMIT 31 August- 1 September 'The Book Idea...imagination, information and access'= hosted by the National Book Council at the Sheraton Hotel, 13 Spring= Street, Melbourne. For further information contact the Executive Director,= National Book Council Ph (03) 6638655 or fax 6638658. ****************************************************************************= * While AWOL makes every effort to ensure the accuracy of Happenings listing we suggest you confirm dates, times and venue. AWOL would like to thank the following organisation who provided information for this list: NSW Writers Centre, Queensland Writers Centre, La Mama Poetica, AusLit= discussion=20 group (internet), WIPround (Women in Publishing) and the other individuals a= nd organisations who supplied information about their events directly to AWOL. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 00:57:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: your mail In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The caravan of windows to what they flee > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > Power to the spider, virtuous in act if not intent > Sight over sound for "justice," O cubes of Cuba! Where > would calmness be without the stain of possession and Belief. A mirage effect, art, made to waver in ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 22:15:36 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <950803005751_46827563@aol.com> > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > The caravan of windows to what they flee > > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > Power to the spider, virtuous in act if not intent > > Sight over sound for "justice," O cubes of Cuba! Where > > would calmness be without the stain of possession and > Belief. A mirage effect, art, made to waver in > a modicum of chocolate milk. Not too late for ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 05:58:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <9508030021.AA54367@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca> On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, Louis Cabri wrote: > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three > Something has changed in the nature of friendship > Renegade and flightless, board of common prayer aside > Retires a diplomat with "the Prussian blues" - misconstrual > but doesn't bother to misconstrue itself and then > drinkin' eel foot at the barley mow just last saturday i > detected an anomalous rhythmicity nuncupating our otherwise > tearfully drear decorum of the dead letter dance I have no time to consecrate the private parts ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 06:29:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Renga 1 In-Reply-To: <199508030121.SAA12532@bob.indirect.com> On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >adding to Ron Silliman's addition -- > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 06:33:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <950803005751_46827563@aol.com> On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Rod Smith wrote: > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > The caravan of windows to what they flee > > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > Power to the spider, virtuous in act if not intent > > Sight over sound for "justice," O cubes of Cuba! Where > > would calmness be without the stain of possession and > Belief. A mirage effect, art, made to waver in between the times that the viewer spoke to the screen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 06:36:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > > The caravan of windows to what they flee > > > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > > Power to the spider, virtuous in act if not intent > > > Sight over sound for "justice," O cubes of Cuba! Where > > > would calmness be without the stain of possession and > > Belief. A mirage effect, art, made to waver in > > a modicum of chocolate milk. Not too late for propelling you to the day without answers or questions ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 08:11:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome In-Reply-To: <199508030121.SAA03320@fraser.sfu.ca> On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, George Bowering wrote: > I have found that the only people who avoid words like "art" on > egalitarian terms are the privileged, university profs and the like. > My brother-in-law wouldnt. And his job is putting together RVs. He > would never call that art, either. His loss. But I'm hardly privileged, or a prof (though I may be "the like," I don't know). For me the main difference between graduate school and having finished is that my loans are due. "Dominated fraction of the dominant class," as Bourdieu says -- sure; but the privileges continue to elude me. Besides, it was not for "egalitarian" reasons that I avoid words like art (or poetry). It's for pragmatic ones: namely, I think I can learn more without it than with. Jeez, did I open a can 'o something. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg The moment is at hand. University Writing Program Take one another Duke University and eat. Durham, NC 27708 kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 08:59:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "GWYN M. MCVAY" Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <950803005751_46827563@aol.com> On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Rod Smith wrote: > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > The caravan of windows to what they flee > > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > Power to the spider, virtuous in act if not intent > > Sight over sound for "justice," O cubes of Cuba! Where > > would calmness be without the stain of possession and > Belief. A mirage effect, art, made to waver in green glass, a rippled trapezoid slab, unmeant as ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 09:05:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, GWYN M. MCVAY wrote: > On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Rod Smith wrote: > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > > The caravan of windows to what they flee > > > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > > Power to the spider, virtuous in act if not intent > > > Sight over sound for "justice," O cubes of Cuba! Where > > > would calmness be without the stain of possession and > > Belief. A mirage effect, art, made to waver in > green glass, a rippled trapezoid slab, unmeant as it pushed the new look through light blood ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 10:55:48 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome Tony et alia, "ars longa, vita brevis." - Horace "The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne [. . .]." Chaucer "Art new, hurt old: revealing [. . .]." Zukofsky Burt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 11:35:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marisa A Januzzi Subject: Re: Renga 1 In-Reply-To: On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Jorge Guitart wrote: > On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > > > >adding to Ron Silliman's addition -- > > > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 11:30:07 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: Renga 1 on August 2 Sheila E. Murphy (& others) wrote: > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind floating, held open, adrift in different directions, she ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 11:36:41 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: Re: Renga 1 Comments: To: "Sheila E. Murphy" On 2 Aug 95 at 18:21, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >adding to Ron Silliman's addition -- > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind Weatherless birds, featherless biped bones conspired into song ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/ Online Representative, Austin International Poetry Festival \| / Joe Zitt's Home Page\ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 11:53:58 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: Renga 1 On Aug 3 Marissa Januzzi wrote: > On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Jorge Guitart wrote: > > > On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > > > > > >adding to Ron Silliman's addition -- > > > > > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 10:31:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms There's been a lot added to this thread since I've had a chance to respond. This is a digest of responses to lots of different folks. Perhaps the "problem" with identifying the inventor of the sonnet isn't just that the name is lost amidst (in the mists of) history. Instead it may have to do with the fact that there was a community of artists working together out of which the various troubador forms arose, similar to the development of, say blues or bebop or photography. In other words, ou can point to the group from which these things arose, but you can't really single out one person as the originator. Both Rod Smith & Cris Cheek seem to refer to this kind of development in their several posts to this thread. Many people who read this list have more knowledge of the specifics than I do, but it seems to me that this may be true even in stylistic movements like, say, Imagism or Projective Verse, which have a strongly identified father-figure. Even here the style didn't leap fully formed out of the forehead of any one writer. Rather, these simply (or complexly) grew out of a dynamic process in which a group of writers reinforced various tendencies in their work. So, if there is a form that grows out of, say, "My Life" or "Progress," it may not look exactly like either of these works, but instead would be related to several works by several writers working similar veins. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 13:42:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome In-Reply-To: <00994518.27E271D8.15@admin.njit.edu> Add: "Ars Gratia Artis" Leo* *The Metro Goldwyn Mayer lion (he roars the three words distinctly --just watch him carefully) "All art is quite useless" Oscar Wilde "Art is my nickname" Arturo Toscanini On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT wrote: > Tony et alia, > > "ars longa, vita brevis." > - Horace > > "The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne [. . .]." > Chaucer > > "Art new, hurt old: revealing [. . .]." > Zukofsky > > > > Burt > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 13:47:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Renga 1 In-Reply-To: On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Marisa A Januzzi wrote: > On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Jorge Guitart wrote: > > > On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > > > > > >adding to Ron Silliman's addition -- > > > > > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 13:49:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Renga 1 In-Reply-To: <1B10D897BB9@as.ua.edu> On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Hank Lazer wrote: > on August 2 Sheila E. Murphy (& others) wrote: > > > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > floating, held open, adrift in different directions, she > held contradictory opinions about bombon glace' ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 13:54:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Renga 1 Comments: To: Joseph Zitt In-Reply-To: <199508031636.LAA25065@zoom.bga.com> On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Joseph Zitt wrote: > On 2 Aug 95 at 18:21, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > > > >adding to Ron Silliman's addition -- > > > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > Weatherless birds, featherless biped bones conspired into song all in the same drawer,"Too tight in there? Well fuck 'em" Oh, ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 13:57:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Renga 1 In-Reply-To: <1B173931D84@as.ua.edu> On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Hank Lazer wrote: > On Aug 3 Marissa Januzzi wrote: > > > On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Jorge Guitart wrote: > > > > > On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > > > > > > > >adding to Ron Silliman's addition -- > > > > > > > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > > > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > > lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the > monument to the warren commission on the asteroid > > > > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 13:03:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Renga 1 In message <19845B84CCB@as.ua.edu> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > adding to Ron Silliman's addition -- > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > The caravan of windows to what they flee > > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the flat glass of renga matter, transparent unwords ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 13:03:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon In message <9508030021.AA54367@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three > Something has changed in the nature of friendship > Renegade and flightless, board of common prayer aside > Retires a diplomat with "the Prussian blues" - misconstrual > but doesn't bother to misconstrue itself and then > drinkin' eel foot at the barley mow just last saturday i > detected an anomalous rhythmicity nuncupating our otherwise > tearfully drear decorum of the dead letter dance ohime, ohime! i fell between A and E > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 13:04:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Renga 1 In message <199508030121.SAA12532@bob.indirect.com> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > >adding to Ron Silliman's addition -- > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind and shivershiver compressed tree into language ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 13:07:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: your mail In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > > The caravan of windows to what they flee > > > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > > Power to the spider, virtuous in act if not intent > > > Sight over sound for "justice," O cubes of Cuba! Where > > > would calmness be without the stain of possession and > > Belief. A mirage effect, art, made to waver in > > a modicum of chocolate milk. Not too late for the phalarope, anodyne, cynesure, palindrome or rapturous whatnots ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 13:09:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: your mail In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Rod Smith wrote: > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > > The caravan of windows to what they flee > > > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > > Power to the spider, virtuous in act if not intent > > > Sight over sound for "justice," O cubes of Cuba! Where > > > would calmness be without the stain of possession and > > Belief. A mirage effect, art, made to waver in > green glass, a rippled trapezoid slab, unmeant as only unmeaning jargon can really get under your ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 13:10:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: your mail In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, GWYN M. MCVAY wrote: > > > On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Rod Smith wrote: > > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > > > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > > > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > > > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > > > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > > > The caravan of windows to what they flee > > > > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > > > Power to the spider, virtuous in act if not intent > > > > Sight over sound for "justice," O cubes of Cuba! Where > > > > would calmness be without the stain of possession and > > > Belief. A mirage effect, art, made to waver in > > green glass, a rippled trapezoid slab, unmeant as > it pushed the new look through light blood- ed pages of vogue and vague and rogue elephantine ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 13:05:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome In message <199508030121.SAA03320@fraser.sfu.ca> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > I have found that the only people who avoid words like "art" on > egalitarian terms are the privileged, university profs and the like. > My brother-in-law wouldnt. And his job is putting together RVs. He > would never call that art, either. i'm getting an odd deja vu sensation --did this identical post come through my transom a few months back?--md ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 10:54:01 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: Take Yer Pardner Renga: Some Rules The "Take yer pardner..." renga Proposed new email rules for it: 1. Prior to posting her/his line, each contributor must send it privately to one other member on the listserv, who contributes the next line and then posts the two lines together to the listserv. 2. No more than one contribution as initiator of a "couplet" per person every 24hrs. Why doesn't somebody start on one of the rengas going now? In the subject heading, maybe call it "take yer pardner renga # __." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 13:41:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome In-Reply-To: from "David Kellogg" at Aug 3, 95 08:11:18 am From some points of view, one who is in graduate school is already among the privileged. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 13:45:09 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Taylor Organization: PSU Cramer Hall Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms well put ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 13:55:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome In-Reply-To: <9508022140.AA02152@infolink.infolink.morris.mn.us> from "Jonathan Brannen" at Aug 2, 95 04:40:49 pm I guess that "art" is a slippery term. I have heard, in interviews on MTV, guityar wangers referring to themselves as "artists." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 09:33:09 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome yes Burt close to my own sentiments re- art as primarily a knowledge in practice of the artist (including a knowledge of relation to hearers, readers, or beholders) only secondarily and latterly a category of works to be known by their conformities to protocols by which they should or should not be admitted to a museum, anthology or canon -- the purposes of which prove to be to turn works into instructive examples for future practice, running into the problem of the singularity of occasions for works -- hence permanent quarrels between ancients and moderns. [ I've said this before, I guess. boring????] Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 15:40:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carl Lynden Peters Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome In-Reply-To: <199508032055.NAA07830@fraser.sfu.ca> from "George Bowering" at Aug 3, 95 01:55:31 pm > > I guess that "art" is a slippery term. I have heard, in interviews on > MTV, guityar wangers referring to themselves as "artists." > i was reading joseph beuys today, and i think he'd have no problem with wangers who say their wangering is art. in an interview once, he said a nurse is an artist. so is a banker. even a baker. so i don't think he'd have any difficulty with wangers. my art professor at york, someone who continues to remain an important influence on me in my life in art, always emphasized that he was not an artist and that he didn't make art. he was trained in the mystical tradition of the kabbalah. his work is second to none. questions abt art don't bother him in the least. we're in the process of getting a major retrospective of his work together, which is likely to have both national and international contexts. more on that as it unfolds. whatever it is he does or however he defines it, i know that he's found at least one key to unlock the secret mind. he takes his work seriously. i have the utmost respect for that. people often say: "man, yr just too damn serious!" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 18:47:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Renga 1 In-Reply-To: <30210f640b15002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, maria damon wrote: > In message <19845B84CCB@as.ua.edu> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > > adding to Ron Silliman's addition -- > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > > The caravan of windows to what they flee > > > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > flat glass of renga matter, transparent unwords > un-unspoken as a whippooorwill said "wahoowhen!" in Ojibwa ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 18:53:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <30210f6b0b38002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, maria damon (& a cast of about 12) wrote: > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three > > Something has changed in the nature of friendship > > Renegade and flightless, board of common prayer aside > > Retires a diplomat with "the Prussian blues" - misconstrual > > but doesn't bother to misconstrue itself and then > > drinkin' eel foot at the barley mow just last saturday i > > detected an anomalous rhythmicity nuncupating our otherwise > > tearfully drear decorum of the dead letter dance > ohime, ohime! i fell between A and E 2-good 2-be 4-gotten in the crag & where the hell is Carmen S.D. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 19:01:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Renga 1 In-Reply-To: <30210fb50d08002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, maria damon, adding to adder's addition to ron wrote: > > > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > and shivershiver compressed tree into language > from which postmeaning scrammed & sure enough ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 19:11:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <302110621141002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, maria damon wrote: > In message UB > Poetics discussion group writes: > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > > > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > > > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > > > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > > > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > > > The caravan of windows to what they flee > > > > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > > > Power to the spider, virtuous in act if not intent > > > > Sight over sound for "justice," O cubes of Cuba! Where > > > > would calmness be without the stain of possession and > > > Belief. A mirage effect, art, made to waver in > > > a modicum of chocolate milk. Not too late for > the phalarope, anodyne, cynesure, palindrome or rapturous whatnots > or the Orifice-Precipice Paradox whom the angels called McLemore's ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 19:23:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <302110e9146c002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, maria damon wrote: > In message UB Poetics > discussion group writes: > > On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Rod Smith wrote: > > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > > > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > > > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > > > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > > > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > > > The caravan of windows to what they flee > > > > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > > > Power to the spider, virtuous in act if not intent > > > > Sight over sound for "justice," O cubes of Cuba! Where > > > > would calmness be without the stain of possession and > > > Belief. A mirage effect, art, made to waver in > > green glass, a rippled trapezoid slab, unmeant as > only unmeaning jargon can really get under your > mask, one hyena boyfriend, one aurora, & maintenance ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 18:31:25 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: On little renga feet One of these things I think about when i don't have anything to think about: What is determining the lengths of our lines of the renga? No rules have been stated, but there seems to be something in common about them. Personally, I've make them short enough that they don't wrap -- but what is apparently keeping the lines as long as they are. (Of course, I've probably messed things up by asking this, and someone will no doubt post a one-character line...) ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/ Online Representative, Austin International Poetry Festival \| / Joe Zitt's Home Page\ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 18:31:20 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: Re: Renga 1 Comments: To: Marisa A Januzzi On 3 Aug 95 at 11:35, Marisa A Januzzi wrote: > On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Jorge Guitart wrote: > > > On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > > > > > >adding to Ron Silliman's addition -- > > > > > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of Riemann space worried into tropical depression ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/ Online Representative, Austin International Poetry Festival \| / Joe Zitt's Home Page\ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 19:47:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome the only time to use "art" is when you are talking to, or about, someone with that name. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 21:16:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms Comments: cc: q@umd5.umd.edu Joe Zitt writes that "new forms get viewed as the "turf" of one writer or another (in your [i.e. Herb Levy's] examples, Hejinian or Watten), and to use them is viewed as copping another's style." ...in response to what Herb Levy calls _the formal rhythms of Lyn Hejinian's "My Life,"_ wondering how different our literary community would be were such forms to be passed around. But, folks, isn't it obvious - and obviously conscious on Lyn's part - that the structure of My Life owes much (i.e. its origin at least) to Ron Silliman's Ketjak? These forms, in other words, certainly were passed around and imitated and not at all thought of as anyone's "turf" for a significant time. What is the relation between a writer's method and such formal choices, if in fact they are not identical as seems supposed by JZ's "turf" metaphor? Lyn H. and Ron S. are very different in their interests; the two poems My Life and Ketjak very different explorations of time and perception as social and personal fact. What is the process by which response to poetic work is channeled into means of identifying such work with an author? Tom Mandel ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 21:41:36 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms Herb, Point of information (only, since what you are saying is correct in its thrust, I'd say): the sonnet was not a troubadour form (though perhaps, a BIG perhaps, a case can be made for some of the troubadours escaping the deadly effect of the Albigensian Crusade and migrating to Sicily. It was there that we find the first extant sonnets. Cf. Paul Oppenheimer's book. Cordially, Burt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 21:44:29 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms Herb, Of course, here and there, a single poet invents a specific form. For instance, the poet Weatherly (formerly Elias Weatherly, formerly Tom Weatherly) invented the "glory"--a tight lyric form in which the same vowel sound is repeated in successive lines in successive syllable positions, etc. So, yes, he worked the form out alone; yet he did not live in a vacuum. Burt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 19:04:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carl Lynden Peters Subject: Re: writings and last poets In-Reply-To: from "Herb Levy" at Aug 1, 95 02:59:53 pm herb, thank-you for your statement on the new wr-eye-tings line. i wanted to respond to it myself, but got side tracked. --thanks once again take care, carl > > >what is and how does one subscribe, if it's a list?--md > > is a list that carl peters started with much discussion & > input from cris cheek. Some of this discussion was on a while > back. It focuses on visual & sound poetry. > > It's pretty quiet by standards. > > > To subscribe: > > send the following command in email to "Majordomo@sfu.ca": > > subscribe wr-eye-tings > > followed by your email address on the same line. > > > The Last Poets passed through town this winter, but I didn't like the > relatively new record very much, so I didn't go. Sounds like I made a > mistake. I hope they continue to tour. > > Thanks for the report on their performance. > > > > Herb Levy > herb@eskimo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 21:30:25 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: take yer pardner, pardner from lisa robertson and me-- > In the look were schemes, on their screens, crooks > if ethix hackers necks cricked, a junk node > hoops the blarney. So > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 23:01:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome carl lynden writes: > > my art professor at york, someone who continues to remain an important > influence on me in my life in art, always emphasized that he was not an > artist and that he didn't make art. he was trained in the mystical > tradition of the kabbalah. his work is second to none. questions abt art > don't bother him in the least. we're in the process of getting a major > retrospective of his work together, which is likely to have both national > and international contexts. more on that as it unfolds. whatever it is he > does or however he defines it, i know that he's found at least one key to > unlock the secret mind. he takes his work seriously. i have the utmost > respect for that. people often say: "man, yr just too damn serious!" so who is this dude, sounds really cool, and where's the retrospective?--md ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 23:06:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms In message <00994572.5F74C894.30@admin.njit.edu> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Herb, > > Point of information (only, since what you are saying is correct in its > thrust, I'd say): > > the sonnet was not a troubadour form (though perhaps, a BIG perhaps, a > case can be made for some of the troubadours escaping the deadly effect > of the Albigensian Crusade and migrating to Sicily. It was there that > we find the first extant sonnets. Cf. Paul Oppenheimer's book. > > Cordially, > > Burt this is kind of cool cuz wasn't sicily during this period a very hybrid kind of place w/ arabic, its own italian, latin, etc, being written? i did a little shtick on islands at mla last yr and sd, mostly intuitively, that islands, far from being "isolated," were crossroadss for cultural cross-polli(e)?nation. so, the sonnet, which is now the icon of mainstream poetic tradition, had its origins in a swirling eclecticism of languages, traditions, forms and people--md ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 00:58:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome G.B. wrote (he really did): >I guess that "art" is a slippery term. I have heard, in >interviews on >MTV, guityar wangers referring to themselves as "artists." I changed my mind abt saying anything at all on this, however, I believe the spelling is guitar. --Rod ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 22:08:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: eR 1 On Aug 3 Hank Lazer wrote: On Aug 3 Marissa Januzzi wrote: > On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Jorge Guitart wrote: > > > On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > > > > > >adding to Ron Silliman's addition -- > > > > > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of ><< lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the morning from the books out of the dreams away from the lonesome wail ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 01:15:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: Renga 1 > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of altered colophons, a legal adage in a kiss it, o uncalm! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 22:17:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Renga 1 > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > > The caravan of windows to what they flee > > > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > > Power to the spider, virtuous in act if not intent > > > Sight over sound for "justice," O cubes of Cuba! Where > > > would calmness be without the stain of possession and > > > Belief. A mirage effect, art, made to waver in > > > a modicum of chocolate milk. Not too late for > > propelling you to the day without answers or questions Hiroshima mon amor and the dream and the book and it did not happen nevermore Trickster drags the chalk across , ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 22:38:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Renga 1 maria damon writes In message <19845B84CCB@as.ua.edu> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > adding to Ron Silliman's addition -- > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > The caravan of windows to what they flee > > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > flat glass of renga matter, transparent unwords the web spun the spider of disjointed times out on , [A . ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 22:30:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: question abt rengas In-Reply-To: <199508020531.WAA01887@slip-1.slip.net> from "Steve Carll" at Aug 1, 95 10:31:21 pm So, if you write two lines in a row, is the renga void, like a petition? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 22:47:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Renga > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > floating, held open, adrift in different directions, she let the renga drop opposite the po po purple ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 22:52:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome In-Reply-To: <950804005613_130151819@aol.com> from "Rod Smith" at Aug 4, 95 00:58:56 am You can't get away from this "art" business. To add, my ol papa picked up my copy of GB's A Place to Die and when I caught him reading it (he doesn't like reading "artsy" books) he asked me if using & for and made something art or artistic. I haven't answered him yet. When he asked me what Lolita was abt and I told him he didn't ask anything about what made it art or artistic. I haven't asked him why yet. Maybe nymphets are more obvious than ampersands. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 22:59:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Renga 2 On Aug 3, Jorge Guitart wrote Re: Renga 1 of a cardinal in the poplar > > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Marisa A Januzzi wrote: > On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Jorge Guitart wrote: > > > On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > > > > > >adding to Ron Silliman's addition -- > > > > > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > > >> First inverted whistle following red red rdbins ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 23:07:46 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms In-Reply-To: <30219cd33809002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Maria, if you want more evidence for islands being crossroads, there's a big push among Pacific Islanders to reclaim themselves as an ocean of islands that has had continued and heavy commerce among themselves for thousands of years--rather than the Euro vision of them as isolated blips in a vast sea. Just been reading a similar commentary on Caribbean island self-vision. And certainly Hawaii is a magnetic center where east and west meet. I'm sure other Pacific islands are too. Gabrielle On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, maria damon wrote: > > this is kind of cool cuz wasn't sicily during this period a very hybrid kind of > place w/ arabic, its own italian, latin, etc, being written? i did a little > shtick on islands at mla last yr and sd, mostly intuitively, that islands, far > from being "isolated," were crossroadss for cultural cross-polli(e)?nation. so, > the sonnet, which is now the icon of mainstream poetic tradition, had its > origins in a swirling eclecticism of languages, traditions, forms and people--md > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 02:56:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms Tom Mandel writes: >But, folks, isn't it obvious - and obviously conscious on Lyn's part - that the structure of My Life owes much (i.e. its origin at least) to Ron Silliman's Ketjak? These forms, in other words, certainly were passed around and imitated and not at all thought of as anyone's "turf" for a significant time. Yet the K section of The Alphabet (specifically Ketjak2:Caravan of Affect), literally "the next paragraph," is heavily indebted to Lyn's "rewriting" of My Life and uses that quite consciously. My sense is that it must take a good while for a form to break free of the weight of that early identification. Look at how imprisoned the early American prose poem was to the first few translations/imitations of Max Jacob, as tho that were all one could do with prose in a poem. My sense is that Blake, Coleridge and Pope could all have been taken as inspiration for the prose poem and it would have looked like a very different dog. Ron Silliman rsillima@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 03:45:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Inland Bankruptcy I pulled the following off of BookWeb, a good WWW site for book news: Inland Files for Chapter 11 Bankruptcy Protection Small Press Distributor To Remain Open Through Reorganization At press time, Inland Book Company announced that it had filed for reorganization under Chapter 11 of the Federal Bankruptcy Act on August 1. Under Chapter 11, the small and independent press distributor will seek protection from creditors as it reorganizes its finances and operations. "Inland has already taken steps to reorganize itself and expects to continue operations without interruption," the company said in announcing the filing. > Inland s filing comes as no great surprise to those in the publishing industry who had seen Inland, which specializes in "alternative" literature, struggle through hard financial times. A year ago, the troubled distributor was purchased by the Miller Group, a Florida Company specializing in distribution businesses. In September, Inland executives David Wilk and Steve Hargraves regained ownership of Inland, claiming that the Miller Group reneged on its commitments. At the time, Wilk said he had met with a number of Inland s closest publisher friends, who had commited to supporting him in rebuilding the business. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 07:46:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: Renga 1 In-Reply-To: <199508040538.WAA09883@well.com> from "Thomas Bell" at Aug 3, 95 10:38:39 pm Set peotics NO RENGA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 09:26:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Inland Bankruptcy In-Reply-To: <199508041045.DAA28997@ix4.ix.netcom.com> from "Ron Silliman" at Aug 4, 95 03:45:41 am Ron writes: "...BookWeb, a good WWW site for book news" Could you post the exact http address? Thanks. Pierre ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Poems are sketches for existence." Dept. of English | --Paul Celan SUNY Albany | Albany NY 12222 | "Revisionist plots tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | are everywhere and our pronouns haven't yet email: | drawn up plans for the first coup." joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --J.H. Prynne ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 10:18:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Renga 1 Comments: To: Joseph Zitt In-Reply-To: <199508032333.SAA09299@zoom.bga.com> On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Joseph Zitt wrote: > On 3 Aug 95 at 11:35, Marisa A Januzzi wrote: > > > On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Jorge Guitart wrote: > > > > > On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > > > > > > > >adding to Ron Silliman's addition -- > > > > > > > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > > > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > Riemann space worried into tropical depression giving consolation a bad name and injecting > ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- > |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| > ||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| > |/ Online Representative, Austin International Poetry Festival \| > / Joe Zitt's Home Page\ > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 07:27:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms Burt Kimmelman wrote: >Point of information (only, since what you are saying is correct in its >thrust, I'd say): > >the sonnet was not a troubadour form (though perhaps, a BIG perhaps, a >case can be made for some of the troubadours escaping the deadly effect >of the Albigensian Crusade and migrating to Sicily. It was there that >we find the first extant sonnets. Cf. Paul Oppenheimer's book. Burt, Thanks for the clarification on the origin of sonnets. I'd always connected sonnets with an idea that comes from my vaguely remembered reading of Pound (maybe Kenner, someone anyway) that the first sonnet started when some troubador failed to be able to complete a canzone form of several verses of 14 lines. There are a lot of other things to respond to in this thread but I'm off to the Olympic Peninsula imminently. Have a nice weekend y'all. Bests Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 10:28:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: eR 1 In-Reply-To: <199508040508.WAA29378@well.com> On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Thomas Bell wrote: > On Aug 3 Hank Lazer wrote: > > On Aug 3 Marissa Januzzi wrote: > > > On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Jorge Guitart wrote: > > > > > On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > > > > > > > >adding to Ron Silliman's addition -- > > > > > > > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > > > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > ><< lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the > morning > from the books out of the dreams away from the lonesome > wail of the glob that cradles in its claws The Anthology > of ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 09:15:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carl Lynden Peters Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome In-Reply-To: <30219b8b32b9002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> from "maria damon" at Aug 3, 95 11:01:17 pm maria, he's _tim whiten_, teaches at york in toronto, and is represented by the olga korper gallery. the retro is tentatively set for mid 1996, altho i haven't heard confirmation. i'm writing an essay ("the work as art") for the catalogue. last time i heard either jack burnham or lucy lippard were going to write the preface. i think getting hold of examples and documentation of his work might be difficult. despite the contexts he's worked out for himself, he remains somewhat _underground_, altho a major performance/installation piece of his at art park in up-state NY was included in lippards book _overlay_. the piece was called, if i can get the sp right, "Morada," and it was conceived and performed during the late 70s and early 80s. apologies fr going on abt this. what can i say? rarely do you find such an expansive spirit, and rarely do you _connect_ thank you for your question, maria. i wanted to foreground his work further in my earlier post, but didn't know how to frame it exactly i'll post you a catalogue once everything is done and done take good care, carl > > carl lynden writes: > > > > > my art professor at york, someone who continues to remain an important > > influence on me in my life in art, always emphasized that he was not an > > artist and that he didn't make art. he was trained in the mystical > > tradition of the kabbalah. his work is second to none. questions abt art > > don't bother him in the least. we're in the process of getting a major > > retrospective of his work together, which is likely to have both national > > and international contexts. more on that as it unfolds. whatever it is he > > does or however he defines it, i know that he's found at least one key to > > unlock the secret mind. he takes his work seriously. i have the utmost > > respect for that. people often say: "man, yr just too damn serious!" > > so who is this dude, sounds really cool, and where's the retrospective?--md > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 12:27:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Willa Jarnagin Subject: "art"/semantics In-Reply-To: <01HTNCKMUYL48WW9PT@VAXC.STEVENS-TECH.EDU> On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Edward Foster wrote: > the only time to use "art" is when you are talking to, or about, someone with that name. > So we should discard this word? You know what'll happen? Another will take its place and the same argument will continue.... Willa ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 10:32:14 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Taylor Organization: PSU Cramer Hall Subject: Re: "art"/semantics excuse me, I must have arted. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 13:48:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Renga Rung Wrong In-Reply-To: Then of course everything sorts itself out: > morning > from the books out of the dreams away from the lonesome > of > wail of the glob that cradles in its claws The Anthology > > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > > > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > > > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > > > > > > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > > > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > ><< lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 08:12:01 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Parasites revealed in action! (fwd) Surprise surprise! Gabrielle PROPOSED CONGRESSIONAL CUTS OF $9 BILLION TO WELFARE/HEALTH/EDUCATION/WORKERS SAFETY REGULATIONS MATCH MILITARY GIFT The symmetry is beautiful and awesome. My last post ranted about the military industrial complex and how we should really concentrate on that area if we need cuts in the federal budget. I responded to a comment from a colleague on this list that we should step back and look at where the money is going instead of insisting that the government punish a different set of students. My point centered on the current 104th Congressional decision to *** give the Defense Department $9.7 BILLION MORE than the Pentagon even requested! *** There was little debate in the House or Senate as far as we know. No big fuss arose. But the time has come for that stuff to hit the fan. Almost THE IDENTICAL AMOUNT of money that the Rightists forced upon the military is being taken away from children, the sick, the elderly, students, and the working class in general. All the dots were connected by thick lines following the money trail straight to the doors of the enriching rich. It was like deus ex machina. THE VAMPIRES CAUGHT IN THE ACT --RED-HANDED, as it were. Now is the time to act. Spread the news. This is it. Yours in solid., --Chris Brady %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% THE STUDENT INSURGENT is a biweekly, leftish newspaper published by students at the University of Oregon in Eugene. Our office is located in Suite 1 in the Erb Memorial Union building (EMU). Our phone number is (503)346-3716. FAX: (503)346-0620 e-mail: insurgnt@gladstone.uoregon.edu WWW: http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~insurgnt [*note*: no "e" in "insurgnt" with our electronic addresses] Our current U.S. Mailing address is: The Student Insurgent 1228 -- U. of Oregon Eugene, OR 97403-1228 "...we shall have an association in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all." %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 15:09:51 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: Inland Bankruptcy Inland had stopped handling the smallest presses, is my understanding. I hope Wilk and co. go back to the point where they were doing alright. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 14:11:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome In message <199508041615.JAA06862@fraser.sfu.ca> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > maria, > > he's _tim whiten_, teaches at york in toronto, and is represented by the > olga korper gallery. the retro is tentatively set for mid 1996, altho i > haven't heard confirmation. i'm writing an essay ("the work as art") for > the catalogue. last time i heard either jack burnham or lucy lippard were > going to write the preface. i think getting hold of examples and > documentation of his work might be difficult. despite the contexts he's > worked out for himself, he remains somewhat _underground_, altho a major > performance/installation piece of his at art park in up-state NY was > included in lippards book _overlay_. the piece was called, if i can get > the sp right, "Morada," and it was conceived and performed during the > late 70s and early 80s. apologies fr going on abt this. what can i say? > rarely do you find such an expansive spirit, and rarely do you _connect_ > > thank you for your question, maria. i wanted to foreground his work > further in my earlier post, but didn't know how to frame it exactly > > i'll post you a catalogue once everything is done and done > > take good care, > carl > continues to sound cool--thanks (everytime i try to type out cool it comes out cook. sounds really cook.)--md ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 15:06:24 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms Maria, My hunch is that courtly love and all came from the n african and what is now middle eastern lyric tradition. i can't prove it, though a while back Ammiel Alcaly (you may know him--recent book of his from Singing Horse and another scholarly book from [i think] u of minnesota p) did some graduate work on medieval hebrew and arabic lyrics, which, if i recall, suggested what i am saying. so anyway, sicily, sure--though why did SO MANY forms arise with the troubadours and not with the sicilians; part of the answer to this question has to do with the language of Old Provencal--but only part. musing along . . . Burt ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 14:08:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms gabrielle w writes: > Maria, if you want more evidence for islands being crossroads, there's a > big push among Pacific Islanders to reclaim themselves as an ocean of > islands that has had continued and heavy commerce among themselves for > thousands of years--rather than the Euro vision of them as isolated > blips in a vast sea. Just been reading a similar commentary on Caribbean > island self-vision. And certainly Hawaii is a magnetic center where east > and west meet. I'm sure other Pacific islands are too. > cd that book perchance be The Repeating Island by i forget who and i gave back the book? fernandez-rojo?--yeah, that's a cool book. if it's a diff one, which one is it?--md ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 09:11:33 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: (Fwd) Re: renga anyone? The following is a now forgotten continuation of the Renga that goes back a while. What is most irritating now is to see it hanging "...Suspect/..................................................................... Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: Self To: POETICS@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu Subject: Re: renga anyone? Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 16:52:44 In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning Mist, out into the familiar yonder of the freeway. Suspect Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 14:57:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: "art"/semantics In-Reply-To: from "Willa Jarnagin" at Aug 4, 95 12:27:41 pm Aw shucks, ah caint use the word "art". Ah'm just a honest country boy. I want people to like me and trust me. That word "art" is just for them big city folks and them foreigners over there in that sinful town in France. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 15:06:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Renga In-Reply-To: <199508040547.WAA12804@well.com> from "Thomas Bell" at Aug 3, 95 10:47:30 pm When I hear the word "renga" I reach for my D-key. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 15:08:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome In-Reply-To: <950804005613_130151819@aol.com> from "Rod Smith" at Aug 4, 95 00:58:56 am Rod Smith wrote "I believe the spelling is guitar." Probably he meant to say "I believe that the spelling is guitar." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 18:20:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: renga anyone? In-Reply-To: On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Tony Green wrote: > The following is a now forgotten continuation of the Renga that goes > back a while. What is most irritating now is to see it hanging > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > Mist, out into the familiar yonder of the freeway. Suspect Among the entries of the How Green was My Alien Contest ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 19:02:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lindz Williamson Subject: Please stop In-Reply-To: <199508042206.PAA14788@fraser.sfu.ca> On Fri, 4 Aug 1995, George Bowering wrote: > When I hear the word "renga" I reach for my D-key. > Actually George I think it's when you see the word "renga", and yes I do the same. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 20:51:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Renga Rung Wrong Then of course everything sorts itself out: morning > from the books out of the dreams away from the lonesome > of > wail of the glob that cradles in its claws The Anthology > > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > > > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > > > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > > > > > > > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > > > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > ><< lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the end where the beached whale divulged Jonah > > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 21:20:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: " . . . " In-Reply-To: <199508040614.XAA16012@sparta.SJSU.EDU> Whenever I hear the word "gun" I reach for my art. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 21:23:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Recent Burt In-Reply-To: <199508040614.XAA16012@sparta.SJSU.EDU> I'd been wondering what had become of Tom Weatherly -- can you tell me about any published works under the aliases you mentioned last post??? last I heard of him was a 70's chapbook. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 18:30:09 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Caribbean In-Reply-To: <3022703c0dfd002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Hi Maria. The book is _If I Could Write This In Fire: An Anthology of Lit from the Carib_ ed by Pamela M. Smorkaloff. I'm adding the one you mentioned to my list... Thanks. Gabrielle ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 00:54:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: " . . . " In-Reply-To: The problem: Bang! You're dead. Alan On Fri, 4 Aug 1995, Aldon L. Nielsen wrote: > Whenever I hear the word "gun" I reach for my art. > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 00:19:57 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: renga anyone? Comments: To: Tony Green On 5 Aug 95 at 9:11, Tony Green wrote: > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > Mist, out into the familiar yonder of the freeway. Suspect The night, left in the wake of bibles and caffiene to ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/ Online Representative, Austin International Poetry Festival \| / Joe Zitt's Home Page\ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 02:18:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Scheil Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: renga anyone? In-Reply-To: On Fri, 4 Aug 1995, Jorge Guitart wrote: > On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Tony Green wrote: > > > The following is a now forgotten continuation of the Renga that goes > > back a while. What is most irritating now is to see it hanging > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > Mist, out into the familiar yonder of the freeway. Suspect > Among the entries of the How Green was My Alien Contest the rooting sense to cut away for news in clouds went off ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 03:31:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: BookWeb You wrote: > >Ron writes: "...BookWeb, a good WWW site for book news" > >Could you post the exact http address? Thanks. > >Pierre > http://www.spiders.com/bookweb/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 04:13:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Rengaphobia Interesting (in the clinical sense) to see three negative responses in today's email to the presence of poetry on the Poetics List. All from north of the border, for those of us who like to draw theoretical conclusions. Ron Rsillima@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 12:22:54 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms Tom writes - forms, in other words, certainly were >passed around and imitated and not at all thought of as anyone's "turf" >for a significant time. And Ron adds - My sense is that it must take a good while for a form to >break free of the weight of that early identification. Good stuff. Social imperatives are suggested here? Bringing urgencies to process - urgencies which articulate obvious distinctions between imitation and influence. Hit and miss periodicities of communication and influence are extremely difficult to calibrate nevertheless. It is the quality and the urgency of engagement with the currents within the tides of such communications and influences which make a writer's work compelling. A re-investment in processes of discovery. Any number of singers can sing the same song but as we all know very few can do so in a way which compels us to listen afresh. love and quirky urgencies agencies cris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 12:23:02 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms Maria Damon wrote: > islands, far from being "isolated," were crossroadss for cultural >>cross-polli(e)?nation. so, the sonnet, which is now the icon of mainstream >>poetic tradition, had its origins in a swirling eclecticism of languages, >>traditions, forms and people--md and Gabrielle has cited Pacific Islands, in particualr Hawaii, and the Caribbean in such respects. My own enthusiasm, as some will already know, is for Madagascar (yes Gab, i owe you a letter on that). One of the most celebratory aspects of living on this island (good to read Ron referring to Britain as the islands recently - we relish being the colonised outpost of the twentieth century US adventure) during these pre-millenial tensile days is that of the colonial chickens coming home to ro(o/a)st. Oh the ruins of glamour and the glamour of ruins when the two come together - '. . . O the mirror and the eye, you try to see yourself clearly Both hide significance from view, then allow you to see The hidden jewel, a veritable sapphire O nose and smell, when the two come together O smell and nose; when confusion is further confounded; A person become dumbfounded and loses track of everything. At the time for minstrelsy, when poets vie one with another. O hand and work when the two come together. O work and hand, a skilled performer is never completely overwhelmed; This is the secret of her greatness, so confident is she of her ability So on the day of her trila none would question her presence O the chicks and the hawk, when the two come together O the hawk and the chicks! when one sets its eyes on the other One soars high into air, even only a young bird; Snatching its prey from the air, even with the left hand. O the mattress and the pillow, when the two come together . . .' (freely translated from Muyaka - 19th century swahili poet) the reference to left hand is in regards to eating etiquette as many will know but some might not love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 07:46:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Rengaphobia In-Reply-To: <199508051113.EAA10961@ix4.ix.netcom.com> Luckily, rengaphobia can be cured by behavior modification techniques and there is no need to appeal to constructs such as renga envy. On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Ron Silliman wrote: > Interesting (in the clinical sense) to see three negative responses in > today's email to the presence of poetry on the Poetics List. All from > north of the border, for those of us who like to draw theoretical > conclusions. > > Ron > Rsillima@ix.netcom.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 11:05:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Caribbean In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Hi Maria. The book is _If I Could Write This In Fire: An Anthology of > Lit from the Carib_ ed by Pamela M. Smorkaloff. I'm adding the one you > mentioned to my list... Thanks. Gabrielle thanks, hadn't heard of it but recognize, of course, the source of the title... soory all you other listers out there, to clog your airwaves and eyebrain neurones with personal thanks to one member --it's just so easy to hit that "reply" option.--md ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 11:10:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms cris writes: > My own enthusiasm, as some will already know, > is for Madagascar > > love and love > cris didn't know..please tell us about poetry from the madagascar contact zone!--md ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 12:35:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Rengaphobia oh ron s---yes, yet's draw theoretical conclusions--CANADIANS HATE RENGAS...but RON makes ASSUMPTIONS doesn't it---first one is that this "renga" constitues poetry (there's obviously some weird tension and/or rivalry between bowering and silliman going on--it's soap opera like--ho hum)---there are others too does one have to be north of the border to be north of intention? viva canada! cs ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 12:56:26 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: Recent Burt Aldon, First of all, I have to comment that it feels weird finally attaining the status of "subject position" (multiple re. including: my recent hyperglossia about "self" versus "subject position," and the subject title of this post which is a reply to your post). Anyway, Weatherly (I'm having dinner with him and his wife tomorrow) hasn't published any books since the first perfect bound book by Totem Corinth, "Mau Mau American Cantos," followed by some chapbooks including "Thumbprint" (Telegraph Books). He is a manager at the Strand Bookstore in NYC; he is still writiing poetry mostly. He is more ecelectic than ever. His poems these days are to my mind brillian and original, extremely dense and subtle both, leaning in the Zukofsky direction (on the sound-sense axis). I think some publisher would be wise to do a book of his. No one is doing the sort of thing he is, in terms of both language and theme. If you like, I can ask him to send you some of his work (backchannel me) or I could post a few of the poems, or whatever. Anyway, I'll tell him you asked. Burt ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 13:19:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Vivan tanto canada como renga In-Reply-To: <009946BB.56A87680.8@admin.njit.edu> Viva renga viva Ron y que viva Michael Boughn aunque lo ponga en `no renga' y aunque no tenga razon y, seguro, vivan Chris Canada, George y Lindz pero la renga es poesia cualquiera te lo diria (after Nicolas Guillen) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 13:33:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: not a renga so keep your finger off D Comments: To: poetics@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (with thanks to alan,maria, gabrielle, ron, louie, joseph, marisa, tony, et al) EXCELLENT LEXICAL ADVENTURES the book the dream the caravan & the lace the coffee the bondage & the waist the cream the times the modules & the dust green discorded fanatical & obtuse go mollycoddled thin-spined with oboe it binds misdirected with years ago blowing prussian blue gauze between snacks gives kissing ripcage topped with poplar landscape heavy the waspish cardinal in compassed air ---------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 13:42:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: Parasites revealed in action! (fwd) G-- Thanks for forwarding this. I propose people repost this lots of places as well as making xeroxes of the two headlines next to each other to send around & leave on car windshields & send to corporate heads & our "representatives" etc. If they know we know it scares them a little, I think. & that's a start. --Rod G forwarded this: Surprise surprise! Gabrielle PROPOSED CONGRESSIONAL CUTS OF $9 BILLION TO WELFARE/HEALTH/EDUCATION/WORKERS SAFETY REGULATIONS MATCH MILITARY GIFT The symmetry is beautiful and awesome. My last post ranted about the military industrial complex and how we should really concentrate on that area if we need cuts in the federal budget. I responded to a comment from a colleague on this list that we should step back and look at where the money is going instead of insisting that the government punish a different set of students. My point centered on the current 104th Congressional decision to *** give the Defense Department $9.7 BILLION MORE than the Pentagon even requested! *** There was little debate in the House or Senate as far as we know. No big fuss arose. But the time has come for that stuff to hit the fan. Almost THE IDENTICAL AMOUNT of money that the Rightists forced upon the military is being taken away from children, the sick, the elderly, students, and the working class in general. All the dots were connected by thick lines following the money trail straight to the doors of the enriching rich. It was like deus ex machina. THE VAMPIRES CAUGHT IN THE ACT --RED-HANDED, as it were. Now is the time to act. Spread the news. This is it. Yours in solid., --Chris Brady %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% THE STUDENT INSURGENT is a biweekly, leftish newspaper published by students at the University of Oregon in Eugene. Our office is located in Suite 1 in the Erb Memorial Union building (EMU). Our phone number is (503)346-3716. FAX: (503)346-0620 e-mail: insurgnt@gladstone.uoregon.edu WWW: http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~insurgnt [*note*: no "e" in "insurgnt" with our electronic addresses] Our current U.S. Mailing address is: The Student Insurgent 1228 -- U. of Oregon Eugene, OR 97403-1228 "...we shall have an association in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all." %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 16:04:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Essays Wanted for College Literature's Special Poetry Issue (fwrd) Comments: cc: collit@wcupa.edu [forwarded message:] SPECIAL ISSUE OF COLLEGE LITERATURE Diversity and American Poetries Volume 24, number 1 (February 1997) The issue will explore the theoretical/imaginative space framed by the relation between social, political, and cultural diversity and the great variety of forms and functions comprising poetry in the United States. Topics may include (but are not limited to): Canons, Hierarchies, Rules, Values Poetry as Cultural Criticism Ethnopoetics Folk, Popular, or Non-Academic Poetries Formalisms and Cultural Difference Functional Poetics Hybrid Poetries Ideological Variety Lost/Rediscovered Poetries Non-Print Poetries Poetic Desire/Sexual Desire Poetic Variety and Pedagogy Poetry and Other Arts Poetry of "Minor Literatures" Redefining genres Theorizing creativity Theorizing Poetic Change Workshops and Readings Deadline for submission of 18-25 page articles in MLA style (in triplicate; author's name to appear on cover page only) is July 15, 1996. Please send queries or essays to: AFTER AUG. 15 ONLY (new addesses!): Jerry McGuire College Literature Diversity and Poetry Issue English Dept. University of Southwestern Louisiana Room 211, Griffin Hall Lafayette LA 70504 or: collit@wcupa.edu Call 610-436-2901 if you have a problem with either address. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 15:22:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Brannen Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome Tony, You have plums on the fridge door? Or was that just a tasteful message? I don't want to reopen the issue of the literary cannon, other than to say that we could use a few more literary loose cannons. Best regards from not so sweet but oh so cold Minnesota, Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 15:43:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Brannen Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome Responding to George Bowering post of 3 August: George, I would think any self-respecting MTV guitar wanger would use the term "artiste." Best, Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 15:50:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Brannen Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome Jorge Guitart, So that's what the MGM lion is roaring. All these years I thought it was saying "buy more popcorn." Best, Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 15:55:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Brannen Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome To Ed Foster who said "the only time to use 'art' is when you are talking to, or about, someone with that name." I don't know Ed. I guess I just not comfortable using people that way. Best, Brannen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 16:30:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Brannen Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms Gabrielle and Maria, I believe in was the composer Terry Reily speaking of his composition C who said that progress in the arts frequently resulted from members of one culture imitate the style and methods of another culture without understanding its context within the original culture. Unencumbered by its original cultural baggage, the relatively regimented forms of making and doing within one culture are free to evolve in new directions when adapted by another. Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 18:21:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Quirky Urgencies On imitation and influence and on the "passing around" of forms... ...for one thing lots of formal thinking in new poetry, as I/we experienced in the seventies, for example, was about procedures: methods, ways of doing things. And these ways, or one's sense of them, could be influential yet expressed in very different- appearing formal constructions. At the same time, it's important not to downplay the importance and interest of imitation itself. It's fun an duseful to find out whether you can do a thing that you see someone else doing, and that may involve very blatant imitation. Anyway, imitation doesn't always produce similarity (mimesis is an interesting topic...). Beckett imitated Kafka as a way of getting free from Joyce's influence, but his early work doesn't actually arrive at much of a similarity to what it imitates. Perhaps originality finds in imitation an interesting motor to appear. At the same time, I also remember a lot of not very interesting work (to me, that is) which seemed to be trying to be "the new sentence." But, of course that "theoretical" construction had an utterly personal character, as Ron extended into poetry his political concern with "the sentence" in a very different sense and kept the continuity and contiguity in a rather private irony; i.e. it was never discussed I do not think or at least I do not remember (which means less and less...). But it didn't get by me, Ron. In that sense, I mean, "the new sentence" was inimitable. Or any other new sentence would be original perforce, however mimetic. Tom Mandel ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 15:29:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Rengaphobia Rather than starting a flame war, it might be appropriate to branch off a thread from poetics in response to the spontaneous interest that has developed in response to the interactive development of the renga thread. This might also resolve two other issues that have generated some controversy here: publicity vs. exclusivity and posting of poetry vs. posting of criticism and theory. I think it would be a mistake to restrict or cut off the interest this thread has sparked, no matter how good or bad the work is as _POETRY_ or _RENGA_. Bada Shanren tbjn@well.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 18:41:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome In-Reply-To: <9508052050.AA01078@infolink.infolink.morris.mn.us> Jonathan, to tell you the truth, today i was watching the american movie channel & sure enough there was going to be an old mgm movie. i cut off the sound & watched leo's lips carefully & you are right--in a way: it looked like he was saying ***zea mays everta plus emptor*** . i think it was my stepmother who fooled me into believing that he said the other thing. On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Jonathan Brannen wrote: > Jorge Guitart, > > So that's what the MGM lion is roaring. All these years I thought it > was saying "buy more popcorn." > > Best, > Jonathan > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 18:49:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: flame retardant behavior isnt any poem (including any renga) a statement of (your)(our) poetics? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 17:54:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: Renga 1 >on August 2 Sheila E. Murphy (& others) wrote: >> > >> > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> >> The caravan of windows to what they flee >> >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >floating, held open, adrift in different directions, she promised what she practiced as triangular blue feats soothed > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 18:01:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: your mail >> > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> > > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> > > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> > > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> > > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> > > The caravan of windows to what they flee >> > > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> > > Power to the spider, virtuous in act if not intent >> > > Sight over sound for "justice," O cubes of Cuba! Where >> > > would calmness be without the stain of possession and >> > Belief. A mirage effect, art, made to waver in >> > a modicum of chocolate milk. Not too late for >the phalarope, anodyne, cynesure, palindrome or rapturous whatnots doused in chemicals resembling chemlab outputs straining to be ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 18:03:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: Renga 1 >> > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee >> > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >> > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 18:12:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: eR 1 >On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Thomas Bell wrote: > >> On Aug 3 Hank Lazer wrote: >> >> On Aug 3 Marissa Januzzi wrote: >> >> > On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Jorge Guitart wrote: >> > >> > > On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: >> > > >> > > > >adding to Ron Silliman's addition -- >> > > > > >> > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> > > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> > > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> > > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> > > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> > > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee >> > > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> > > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> > > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> > > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> > > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> > > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >> > > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >> > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >> ><< lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the >> morning >> from the books out of the dreams away from the lonesome >> wail of the glob that cradles in its claws The Anthology >> of retrospective prescience sanded down to mean the elbows cleanly fit > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 22:46:08 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Renga 1 In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind floating, held open, adrift in different directions, she promised what she practiced as triangular blue feats soothed stunned images into form, saying a need, similar days ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 20:54:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lindz Williamson Subject: Re: Vivan tanto canada como renga In-Reply-To: Yes, I fear Renga. I fear art. I fear one big happy poetics list. I wake up at night in a cold sweat because according to all of you i have no soul. I fear generalizations and broad conclusions. I fear people that jump down my throat and make accusations even when I say please. I really fear "quatations marks" and brackets ( GOd they're really, really scary) I fear that someone might inform me that I'm not actually writing poetry, but a bukowski novel. I fear witty comebacks and cynical remarks. I fear Courtney Love. I fear that someone might think I think COurtney love is an " artiste" I fear peopel who correct typos and speling mistaeks I fear that someone might replace the word fear with the word hate in this posting. I fear that I might actually be allowed to post my own opinion and not be condemmed. I fear the US. I fear that someone might find out I have dual citizenship and that my father is American. I fear that the only reason that I'm proud to be Canadian is the fact that it means i'm not American. And due to all this fear I now have a facial twitch and feel faint when I hear literary analysis. But that's ok, i think it adds character so yes. please continue. Viva Renga! Lindz ( i think i'm going to hide under my goose down for a while, that's what Canadians do when they are frightened) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 22:50:03 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Renga2? In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Power to the spider, virtuous in act if not intent Sight over sound for "justice," O cubes of Cuba! Where would calmness be without the stain of possession and Belief. A mirage effect, art, made to waver in a modicum of chocolate milk. Not too late for the phalarope, anodyne, cynesure, palindrome or rapturous whatnots doused in chemicals resembling chemlab outputs straining to be loons in a lake one can see through, diving between sunrises ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 22:54:32 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Renga3? On Sat, 5 Aug 1995 18:03:42 -0700, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection prickling with tenors, saving arrogance for free choice, long division ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 22:58:49 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Renga4? In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the morning from the books out of the dreams away from the lonesome wail of the glob that cradles in its claws The Anthology of retrospective prescience sanded down to mean the elbows cleanly fit sucking, winding, foraging, menacing, saving, stinging, erasing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 21:20:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lindz Williamson Subject: Re: Renga2? In-Reply-To: <91500.mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu> As official chair person of the Canadian Council Against Renga (Car) I charge Charles Alexander with unauthorized use of the Loon," loons in a lake one can see through, diving between sunrises". The Loon is considered a part of Canadian culture and heritage. The Loon was officially chosen to appear on the Canadian dollar coin in 1987, as it reflected typically Canadian mannerisms being some what annoying and mostly harmless shooting it's mouth off for no apparent reason. The coin has since been affectionately nicknamed the " Loonie" I warn you that the members of CAR view the symobolic importance of the Loon to be at par with the American Bald Eagle, therefore this is no laughing matter. WE request that all renga using Loons as a poetic image or metaphor please cease immediately. Thanks for your understanding, we wouldn't want to make this an international incident. Officially, Lindz Williamson ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 01:00:27 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: Re: Renga 1 Comments: To: Charles Alexander On 5 Aug 95 at 22:46, Charles Alexander wrote: > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The caravan of windows to what they flee > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > floating, held open, adrift in different directions, she > promised what she practiced as triangular blue feats soothed > stunned images into form, saying a need, similar days imported when commisioned, encapsulating ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/ Online Representative, Austin International Poetry Festival \| / Joe Zitt's Home Page\ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 23:10:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: Renga4? >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >The caravan of windows to what they flee >These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >& opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the morning >from the books out of the dreams away from the lonesome >wail of the glob that cradles in its claws The Anthology >of retrospective prescience sanded down to mean the elbows cleanly fit >sucking, winding, foraging, menacing, saving, stinging, erasing bandages-to-be from consciousness and conscience plexiglassed against ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 01:14:45 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Renga2? Lindz Williamson writes, "As official chair person of the Canadian Council Against Renga (Car) I charge Charles Alexander with unauthorized use of the Loon," loons in a lake one can see through, diving between sunrises". The Loon is considered a part of Canadian culture and heritage. The Loon was officially chosen to appear on the Canadian dollar coin in 1987, as it reflected typically Canadian mannerisms being some what annoying and mostly harmless shooting it's mouth off for no apparent reason. The coin has since been affectionately nicknamed the " Loonie" I warn you that the members of CAR view the symobolic importance of the Loon to be at par with the American Bald Eagle, therefore this is no laughing matter. WE request that all renga using Loons as a poetic image or metaphor please cease immediately." The loon is also the state bird of Minnesota, although I saw my first several in Wisconsin last week. I apologize for offending Canada, which I greatly respect. charles alexander [===========^^============] [ <> ] chax press [ maybe a <> pages ] [ time <> letters ] phone & fax: 612-721-6063 [ upon <> frames ] [ once <> motion ] e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu [ <> ] [===========vv============] ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 00:01:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Renga2? "nool" OK? as in In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection prickling with tenors, saving arrogance for free choice, long division [A>nool in a CAR, an American car, an official American Toyota ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 21:37:30 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms In-Reply-To: <9508052130.AA01255@infolink.infolink.morris.mn.us> On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Jonathan Brannen wrote: Unencumbered > by its original cultural baggage, the relatively regimented forms > of making and doing within one culture are free to evolve in new > directions when adapted by another. > Yes, that makes a lot of sense to me. Works across time too, so that, for instance revivals of particular folk traditions, like Irish, say, or Hawaiian produce wonderful new possibilities and mixtures that were never possible before. Gab. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 10:14:03 EDT Reply-To: beard@metdp1.met.co.nz Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: beard@MET.CO.NZ Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms Jonathon said, >I believe in was the composer Terry Reily speaking of his composition C >who said that progress in the arts frequently resulted from members of >one culture imitate the style and methods of another culture without >understanding its context within the original culture. Unencumbered >by its original cultural baggage, the relatively regimented forms >of making and doing within one culture are free to evolve in new >directions when adapted by another. Yes, exactly! But when the _imitator_ is from a culture that has colonised the culture that produced the _imititated_ form, the imitator better watch out for the PC police. Viz Gordon Walters' use of the Maori koru design, and his wonderful explorations of its formal possibilities, without any necessary reference to its cultural origins and context. But that's "appropriation" (sorry guys, didn't see the copyright symbol) and hence not on. Are we allowed to use (e.g.) the myths of other cultures in our writings, in whatever way we want, or do we have to sit a test to prove our cultural sensitivity? Tom. ______________________________________________________________________________ I/am a background/process, shrunk to an icon. | Tom Beard I am/a dark place. | beard@metdp1.met.co.nz I am less/than the sum of my parts... | Auckland, New Zealand I am necessary/but not sufficient, | http://metcon.met.co.nz/ and I shall teach the stars to fall | nwfc/beard/www/hallway.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 11:26:08 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: desire / and the 39 steps an urgent wind's up - blows out, to tidy the garden. gets stuck in the process. cholic summer waters lie dark, clogged by decompositions of petals and leaves. the reflections it gives to this world are the better for that. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 08:41:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: Renga 1 In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind condemmed. promised what she practiced as triangular blue feats soothed stunned images into form, saying a need, similar days to those not before, yet stored, whose sifted haze ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 08:44:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: Renga2? In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud. The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Power to the spider, virtuous in act if not intent Sight over sound for "justice," O cubes of Cuba! Where would calmness be without the stain of possession and Belief. A mirage effect, art, made to waver in a modicum of chocolate milk. Not too late for the phalarope, anodyne, cynesure, palindrome or rapturous whatnots doused in chemicals resembling chemlab outputs straining to be loons in a lake one can see through, diving between sunrises as a cat on catpaws, chocolate-milk-lipped, cardinal-listening ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 08:45:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: Renga3? In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning would calmness be without the stain of possession and The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection prickling with tenors, saving arrogance for free choice, long division with its equally long aftertaste, or did its overtone ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 08:48:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: Renga4? In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the morning from the books out of the dreams away from the lonesome wail of the glob that cradles in its claws The Anthology of retrospective prescience sanded down to mean the elbows cleanly fit sucking, winding, foraging, menacing, saving, stinging, erasing yet relaxed all the while, cuffs buttoned close to thumb & page ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 12:44:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Vivan tanto canada como renga jorge writes: > Viva renga > viva Ron > y que viva Michael Boughn > aunque lo ponga en `no renga' > y aunque no tenga razon > > y, seguro, vivan Chris > Canada, George y Lindz > pero la renga es poesia > cualquiera te lo diria > > (after Nicolas Guillen) now this is my idea of art and poetry!--md ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 11:18:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: Renga3? >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >would calmness be without the stain of possession and >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >The caravan of windows to what they flee >These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >& opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection >prickling with tenors, saving arrogance for free choice, long division >with its equally long aftertaste, or did its overtone collapse a wild sugar ago the fleet of cabernet oblivions for ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 11:20:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: Renga 1 >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >The caravan of windows to what they flee >These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >& opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >condemmed. >promised what she practiced as triangular blue feats soothed >stunned images into form, saying a need, similar days >to those not before, yet stored, whose sifted haze pretaxed a little roughage for the good of order modified by "the" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 17:31:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Renga 1 In-Reply-To: <199508060054.RAA26111@bob.indirect.com> On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >on August 2 Sheila E. Murphy (& others) wrote: > >> > > >> > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > >> >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >> >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >> >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >> >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >> > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >floating, held open, adrift in different directions, she > promised what she practiced as triangular blue feats soothed the theoretician and her guests by the balsa wood tower ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 17:35:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <199508060101.SAA26143@bob.indirect.com> On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >> > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> > > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> > > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> > > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> > > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> > > The caravan of windows to what they flee > >> > > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >> > > Power to the spider, virtuous in act if not intent > >> > > Sight over sound for "justice," O cubes of Cuba! Where > >> > > would calmness be without the stain of possession and > >> > Belief. A mirage effect, art, made to waver in > >> > a modicum of chocolate milk. Not too late for > >the phalarope, anodyne, cynesure, palindrome or rapturous whatnots > doused in chemicals resembling chemlab outputs straining to be > with their rehab brothers & sisters in the metaphor they lived by ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 17:40:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Renga 1 In-Reply-To: <199508060103.SAA26151@bob.indirect.com> On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >> > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > >> > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >> > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >> > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >> > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >> > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >> > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >> > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection > denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 17:43:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: eR 1 In-Reply-To: <199508060112.SAA26235@bob.indirect.com> On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Thomas Bell wrote: > > > >> On Aug 3 Hank Lazer wrote: > >> > >> On Aug 3 Marissa Januzzi wrote: > >> > >> > On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Jorge Guitart wrote: > >> > > >> > > On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > >adding to Ron Silliman's addition -- > >> > > > > > >> > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> > > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> > > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> > > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> > > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> > > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > >> > > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >> > > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >> > > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >> > > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >> > > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >> > > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >> > > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >> > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >> ><< lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the > >> morning > >> from the books out of the dreams away from the lonesome > >> wail of the glob that cradles in its claws The Anthology > >> of retrospective prescience sanded down to mean the elbows cleanly > fit to be you or the phantasm that space foreclosed when the ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 17:49:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Renga 1 In-Reply-To: <91286.mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu> On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Charles Alexander wrote: > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The caravan of windows to what they flee > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > floating, held open, adrift in different directions, she > promised what she practiced as triangular blue feats soothed > stunned images into form, saying a need, similar days > of drinking weak coffee in enormous cups, and the trail of ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 17:56:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: eR^2 = eD In-Reply-To: On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: "> > On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Thom- as Bell wrote: > >> '> >> On Aug 3 Hank Lazer wrote: > >> "> >> On Aug 3 Marissa Januzzi wrote: > >> > '> >> > On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Jorge Guitart wrote: > >> >> ">> >> > On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > > > > >> '>> > > > >adding to Ron Silliman's addition -- > >> > > > >'"'"'" that we are beings lonely breathing here, sweet arrows pointing one by one, the one of love and sweet returning ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 18:00:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Renga2? In-Reply-To: <91500.mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu> On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Charles Alexander wrote: > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The caravan of windows to what they flee > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > Power to the spider, virtuous in act if not intent > Sight over sound for "justice," O cubes of Cuba! Where > would calmness be without the stain of possession and > Belief. A mirage effect, art, made to waver in > a modicum of chocolate milk. Not too late for > the phalarope, anodyne, cynesure, palindrome or rapturous whatnots > doused in chemicals resembling chemlab outputs straining to be > loons in a lake one can see through, diving between sunrises > with a modicum of surprise, as in "Mr. Chimaera, please report to the ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 18:08:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Renga4? In-Reply-To: <91979.mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu> > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The caravan of windows to what they flee > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the morning > from the books out of the dreams away from the lonesome > wail of the glob that cradles in its claws the anthology > of retrospective prescience sanded down to mean the elbows cleanly fit > sucking, winding, foraging, menacing, saving, stinging, erasing subsuming, presupposing, debasing & whatnot, & the Masque said ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 18:16:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Renga4? In-Reply-To: <199508060610.XAA28731@bob.indirect.com> (Probably Renga 4-a or 4-b) > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >The caravan of windows to what they flee > >These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >& opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the morning > >from the books out of the dreams away from the lonesome > >wail of the glob that cradles in its claws The Anthology > >of retrospective prescience sanded down to mean the elbows cleanly fit > >sucking, winding, foraging, menacing, saving, stinging, erasing > bandages-to-be from consciousness and conscience plexiglassed against the unfeasible & the give-me-a-rub type of moral history ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 15:18:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: your mail >> >> > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> >> > > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> >> > > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> >> > > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> >> > > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> >> > > The caravan of windows to what they flee >> >> > > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> >> > > Power to the spider, virtuous in act if not intent >> >> > > Sight over sound for "justice," O cubes of Cuba! Where >> >> > > would calmness be without the stain of possession and >> >> > Belief. A mirage effect, art, made to waver in >> >> > a modicum of chocolate milk. Not too late for >> >the phalarope, anodyne, cynesure, palindrome or rapturous whatnots >> doused in chemicals resembling chemlab outputs straining to be >> with their rehab brothers & sisters in the metaphor they lived by patching rent with cyclical amendments, dotted swiss and white pleats ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 15:20:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: Renga 1 >> >> > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> >> > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> >> > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> >> > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> >> > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> >> > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee >> >> > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> >> > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> >> > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> >> > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> >> > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> >> > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >> >> > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >> >> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >> >> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection >> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 15:23:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: eR 1 >On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >> >On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Thomas Bell wrote: >> > >> >> On Aug 3 Hank Lazer wrote: >> >> >> >> On Aug 3 Marissa Januzzi wrote: >> >> >> >> > On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Jorge Guitart wrote: >> >> > >> >> > > On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: >> >> > > >> >> > > > >adding to Ron Silliman's addition -- >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> >> > > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> >> > > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> >> > > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> >> > > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> >> > > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee >> >> > > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> >> > > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> >> > > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> >> > > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> >> > > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> >> > > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >> >> > > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >> >> > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >> >> ><< lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the >> >> morning >> >> from the books out of the dreams away from the lonesome >> >> wail of the glob that cradles in its claws The Anthology >> >> of retrospective prescience sanded down to mean the elbows cleanly >> fit to be you or the phantasm that space foreclosed when the first sentence spilled from heaven wheat of some kind blistered and untuned ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 15:26:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: Renga2? >On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Charles Alexander wrote: > >> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> The caravan of windows to what they flee >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> Power to the spider, virtuous in act if not intent >> Sight over sound for "justice," O cubes of Cuba! Where >> would calmness be without the stain of possession and >> Belief. A mirage effect, art, made to waver in >> a modicum of chocolate milk. Not too late for >> the phalarope, anodyne, cynesure, palindrome or rapturous whatnots >> doused in chemicals resembling chemlab outputs straining to be >> loons in a lake one can see through, diving between sunrises >> with a modicum of surprise, as in "Mr. Chimaera, please report to the first furnace on the left without your usual unpracticed glaze ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 15:28:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: Renga4? >> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> The caravan of windows to what they flee >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >> lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the morning >> from the books out of the dreams away from the lonesome >> wail of the glob that cradles in its claws the anthology >> of retrospective prescience sanded down to mean the elbows cleanly fit >> sucking, winding, foraging, menacing, saving, stinging, erasing > subsuming, presupposing, debasing & whatnot, & the Masque said halt with this tone row winded by Evelyn Wood scans through thesauri ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 18:31:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Renga 1 In-Reply-To: <199508061241.IAA09126@yorick.umd.edu> On Sun, 6 Aug 1995, Tom Mandel wrote: > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The caravan of windows to what they flee > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > condemmed. > promised what she practiced as triangular blue feats soothed > stunned images into form, saying a need, similar days > to those not before, yet stored, whose sifted haze brings in the unknowing and the problem of diction ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 18:33:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Renga2? In-Reply-To: <199508061244.IAA09147@yorick.umd.edu> On Sun, 6 Aug 1995, Tom Mandel wrote: > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud. > The caravan of windows to what they flee > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > Power to the spider, virtuous in act if not intent > Sight over sound for "justice," O cubes of Cuba! Where > would calmness be without the stain of possession and > Belief. A mirage effect, art, made to waver in > a modicum of chocolate milk. Not too late for > the phalarope, anodyne, cynesure, palindrome or rapturous whatnots > doused in chemicals resembling chemlab outputs straining to be > loons in a lake one can see through, diving between sunrises > as a cat on catpaws, chocolate-milk-lipped, cardinal-listening > monsoon-raking, irony-scraping (yes, the cat from hell) goes ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 18:36:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Renga3? In-Reply-To: <199508061245.IAA09173@yorick.umd.edu> On Sun, 6 Aug 1995, Tom Mandel wrote: > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > would calmness be without the stain of possession and > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The caravan of windows to what they flee > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection > prickling with tenors, saving arrogance for free choice, long division > with its equally long aftertaste, or did its overtone > crowd the complacent out of the accident of truth? The body listened-to, ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 18:41:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Renga 1 In-Reply-To: <199508061820.LAA09780@bob.indirect.com> On Sun, 6 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >The caravan of windows to what they flee > >These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >& opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >condemmed. > >promised what she practiced as triangular blue feats soothed > >stunned images into form, saying a need, similar days > >to those not before, yet stored, whose sifted haze > pretaxed a little roughage for the good of order modified by "the" though not *the* The of holy hush and flush, and unmirroring ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 15:17:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: Renga 1 >> >> > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> >> >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> >> >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> >> >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> >> >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> >> >> The caravan of windows to what they flee >> >> >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> >> >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> >> >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> >> >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> >> > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> >> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >> >floating, held open, adrift in different directions, she >> promised what she practiced as triangular blue feats soothed > the theoretician and her guests by the balsa wood tower on the verge of being crushed and therefore perfect in uncrowded ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 19:24:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Colleen Lookingbill Subject: Canessa Park reading series To the List: Canessa Park Reading and Talk Series is has the new fall schedule completed. Hope you that are local can make the events posted below and anyone on the list that might be in the area, we would be delighted to see you. My husband, Jordon Zorker and I host the series and will serve you tea and cookies! Now there's an offer! Admission to all events is four dollars. August 13 - Norma Cole and Duncan McNaughton, Sunday 3:00 September 10 - Steve Carl, John McNally, Anselm Berrigan, Sunday 3:00 September 17 - David Miller and Larry Fixel, Sunday 3:00 October 29, Carol Snow and Joshua Clover, Sunday 3:00 November 12 - Five Fingers Publishing Party, Sunday 3:00 December 8 - Spencer Selby and John Yau, Friday 8:00 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 16:36:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Renga4? [D (Probably Renga 4-a or 4-b) > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >The caravan of windows to what they flee > >These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >& opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the morning > >from the books out of the dreams away from the lonesome > >wail of the glob that cradles in its claws The Anthology > >of retrospective prescience sanded down to mean the elbows cleanly fit > >sucking, winding, foraging, menacing, saving, stinging, erasing > bandages-to-be from consciousness and conscience plexiglassed against > the unfeasible & the give-me-a-rub type of moral history rubbertyred rubicund marshmallows fill the ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 16:39:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Renga4? (Probably Renga 4-b) > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >The caravan of windows to what they flee > >These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >& opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the morning > >from the books out of the dreams away from the lonesome > >wail of the glob that cradles in its claws The Anthology > >of retrospective prescience sanded down to mean the elbows cleanly fit > >sucking, winding, foraging, menacing, saving, stinging, erasing > bandages-to-be from consciousness and conscience plexiglassed against > the unfeasible & the give-me-a-rub type of moral history Orality expands tomorrow as a rerun burrows under ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 16:42:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Renga 1 >> >> > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> >> > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> >> > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> >> > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> >> > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> >> > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee >> >> > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> >> > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> >> > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> >> > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> >> > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> >> > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >> >> > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >> >> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >> >> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection >> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several friends or were they came or did they not ever bother as brothers to fit into the pattern traced on the delicate cusp ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 16:46:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: eR 1 >On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >> >On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Thomas Bell wrote: >> > >> >> On Aug 3 Hank Lazer wrote: >> >> >> >> On Aug 3 Marissa Januzzi wrote: >> >> >> >> > On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Jorge Guitart wrote: >> >> > >> >> > > On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: >> >> > > >> >> > > > >adding to Ron Silliman's addition -- >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> >> > > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> >> > > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> >> > > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> >> > > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> >> > > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee >> >> > > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> >> > > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> >> > > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> >> > > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> >> > > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> >> > > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >> >> > > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >> >> > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >> >> ><< lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the >> >> morning >> >> from the books out of the dreams away from the lonesome >> >> wail of the glob that cradles in its claws The Anthology >> >> of retrospective prescience sanded down to mean the elbows cleanly >> fit to be you or the phantasm that space foreclosed when the >>first sentence spilled from heaven wheat of some kind blistered and untuned The windows barricaded and the battens taut her finger slipped ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 16:50:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Renga3? george guitart wrote that On Sun, 6 Aug 1995, Tom Mandel wrote: > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > would calmness be without the stain of possession and > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The caravan of windows to what they flee > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection > prickling with tenors, saving arrogance for free choice, long division > with its equally long aftertaste, or did its overtone > crowd the complacent out of the accident of truth? The body listened-to, lets breath free and syllables March past the hare madder than ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 11:52:07 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: not a renga so keep your finger off D "green discorded fanatical and obtuse" isn't that getting a wee bit poisonal? Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 11:55:56 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Please stop in Canada renga anagrams easily to anger Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 18:10:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Canadian Love Call In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind condemmed. promised what she practiced as triangular blue feats soothed stunned images into form, saying a need, similar days to those not before, yet stored, whose sifted haze pretaxed a little roughage for the good of order modified by "the" "annotated""Notley-esque""hurly-burly""wigwam" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 18:19:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: And then she wrote You wrote: On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Thomas Bell wrote: On Aug 3 Hank Lazer wrote: On Aug 3 Marissa Januzzi wrote: On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Jorge Guitart wrote: On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: adding to Ron Silliman's addition -- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 18:49:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: Renga4? > [D >(Probably Renga 4-a or 4-b) > >> >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> >First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> >The caravan of windows to what they flee >> >These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> >Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> >but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> >Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> >& opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> >bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >> >kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >> >gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >> >lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the morning >> >from the books out of the dreams away from the lonesome >> >wail of the glob that cradles in its claws The Anthology >> >of retrospective prescience sanded down to mean the elbows cleanly fit >> >sucking, winding, foraging, menacing, saving, stinging, erasing >> bandages-to-be from consciousness and conscience plexiglassed against >> the unfeasible & the give-me-a-rub type of moral history >rubbertyred rubicund marshmallows fill the tunic made of a material called whipped cream from the fifties > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 18:48:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: Please stop In-Reply-To: from "Tony Green" at Aug 7, 95 11:55:56 am C eh N eh D eh I think the Canadian aversion to renga, if there is such a thing, is due to the cosmopolitan chaos it imposes upon my scenic Vancouver e-mailbox. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 13:31:27 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome Comments: To: bowering@SFU.CA Dear George, I recall someone speaking lately of the 'rigor' required when trucking across the 'slippery landscape of gender'. And one proposal which followed was that we drop the words for gender they are so slippery, so hard to grasp they fall from one's hands. My proposal, however, would be to drench all the words we are interested in in whatever mucous membrane, goop, bodily fluid we can lay hands on and like Ishmael said: SQUEEZE 'em good! Are you with me? Wystan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 13:48:04 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms Comments: To: welford@HAWAII.EDU Dear Gabrielle, Do you have in mind the material on the settlement of Polynesia? The emerging picture of an Age of Discovery, with planned voy- ages ranging over 1000s of miles of the Pacific? I've just got back from an incredible week on Cheju, an island off the coast of South Korea, which was the venue for an exhibition of art from Japan, Korea, the Philipines, Indonesia, Australia and New Zealand. The theme was 'From Island to Island'. Billed as a Pre-Biennale, they plan a full-scale international event in 1998 with the same theme. I wasn't entirely clear but had the impression they may limit the invitations to islands. Maria's posting suggests some of the richness of the notion of island culture. Wystan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 12:25:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms o renga renga renga i made you out of clay and when yr dry and ready with renga i will play O! renga renga renga i made you out of clay and if you're not nice to me i'll make you go away etc ad infinitum... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 12:19:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome In message <199508042208.PAA15042@fraser.sfu.ca> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Rod Smith wrote > > "I believe the spelling is guitar." > > Probably he meant to say > > "I believe that the spelling is guitar." or guitart. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 12:18:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: your mail In message <199508062218.PAA12484@bob.indirect.com> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > >> >> > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> >> > > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> >> > > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> >> > > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> >> > > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> >> > > The caravan of windows to what they flee > >> >> > > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >> >> > > Power to the spider, virtuous in act if not intent > >> >> > > Sight over sound for "justice," O cubes of Cuba! Where > >> >> > > would calmness be without the stain of possession and > >> >> > Belief. A mirage effect, art, made to waver in > >> >> > a modicum of chocolate milk. Not too late for > >> >the phalarope, anodyne, cynesure, palindrome or rapturous whatnots > >> doused in chemicals resembling chemlab outputs straining to be > >> with their rehab brothers & sisters in the metaphor they lived by > patching rent with cyclical amendments, dotted swiss and white pleats bleating, and linen is definitely the poets' fabric of choice this summer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 12:18:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Renga4? In message <199508062228.PAA12620@bob.indirect.com> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > >> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >> lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the morning > >> from the books out of the dreams away from the lonesome > >> wail of the glob that cradles in its claws the anthology > >> of retrospective prescience sanded down to mean the elbows cleanly fit > >> sucking, winding, foraging, menacing, saving, stinging, erasing > > subsuming, presupposing, debasing & whatnot, & the Masque said > halt with this tone row winded by Evelyn Wood scans through thesauri but none so gracious as the brontosaurus on your upper right hand ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 12:17:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Renga4? In message <199508070149.SAA15114@bob.indirect.com> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > > [D > >(Probably Renga 4-a or 4-b) > > > >> >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> >First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> >The caravan of windows to what they flee > >> >These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >> >Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >> >but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >> >Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >> >& opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >> >bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >> >kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >> >gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >> >lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the morning > >> >from the books out of the dreams away from the lonesome > >> >wail of the glob that cradles in its claws The Anthology > >> >of retrospective prescience sanded down to mean the elbows cleanly fit > >> >sucking, winding, foraging, menacing, saving, stinging, erasing > >> bandages-to-be from consciousness and conscience plexiglassed against > >> the unfeasible & the give-me-a-rub type of moral history > >rubbertyred rubicund marshmallows fill the tunic made of a material called > whipped cream from the fifties concupiscence, combo, Dumbo and mason jars > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 12:17:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Dear George, > I recall someone speaking lately of the 'rigor' required when > trucking across the 'slippery landscape of gender'. And one proposal which > followed was that we drop the words for gender they are so slippery, so hard > to grasp they fall from one's hands. My proposal, however, would be to > drench all the words we are interested in in whatever mucous membrane, goop, > bodily fluid we can lay hands on and like Ishmael said: SQUEEZE 'em good! > Are you with me? > Wystan can you give an example?--md ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 14:20:14 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms Tom Beard writes: >Are we allowed >to use (e.g.) the myths of other cultures in our writings, in whatever way we >want, or do we have to sit a test to prove our cultural sensitivity? Use as make has double-edges which render them both positive and exploitative terms. It's sensitivity to those double-edges which is perhaps most nourishable. Fuck the police. Be alert,humane and curious. love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 14:20:07 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: Quirky Urgencies Tom, I appreciate your advocacy of the diversity made necessary by the attempt to 'imitate' another's form. And I agree wholeheartedly that the swerve occasioned by those attempts can generate fascinating work. >Perhaps originality finds in imitation an interesting motor >to appear. Yup. 'Found' poems lever this issue wide open. There's another characteristic that's appropriate to this discussion - it's the nature of the impossibility of returning to a state before learning, without the influence of that learning being somehow present. For example when I first started writing ('75) people would say to me "so, how long have you been doing cut ups?" The answer of course was that I never had. But, at first glance my work could look as if it had been produced by a cut up process. Well, the point is that I'd read Burroughs - in particular samizdat collections such as 'White Subway' - but more essentially I was exploring syntactic 'continuous discontinuities' as a response to complexities of interactive human (for me at that time urban-focussed) simultaneities as a response to a 'staring' for humane consciousness in the post-Hiroshima, post-vietnam, post-colonial context of a collapsing western world power. I was both thinking and writing in what other's might consider disjunctions but which for me had 'internal logic' in their making. There is a bridge here to discussions about forms - influences and imitations - with respect to 'lang-po' and folk cultures. There is also a bridge to discussions on copyright and origination. The renga fever which continues, gloriously unabated, displays familiar paradigms in such respects. love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 07:53:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Renga4? In-Reply-To: <199508070149.SAA15114@bob.indirect.com> On Sun, 6 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > > [D > >(Probably Renga 4-a or 4-b) > > > >> >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> >First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> >The caravan of windows to what they flee > >> >These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >> >Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >> >but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >> >Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >> >& opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >> >bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >> >kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >> >gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >> >lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the morning > >> >from the books out of the dreams away from the lonesome > >> >wail of the glob that cradles in its claws The Anthology > >> >of retrospective prescience sanded down to mean the elbows cleanly fit > >> >sucking, winding, foraging, menacing, saving, stinging, erasing > >> bandages-to-be from consciousness and conscience plexiglassed against > >> the unfeasible & the give-me-a-rub type of moral history > >rubbertyred rubicund marshmallows fill the tunic made of a material called whipped cream from the fifties with anti-un-americana written all over it ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 07:44:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Canadian Love Call In-Reply-To: <199508070110.SAA15696@ix3.ix.netcom.com> On Sun, 6 Aug 1995, Ron Silliman wrote: > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The caravan of windows to what they flee > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > condemmed. > promised what she practiced as triangular blue feats soothed > stunned images into form, saying a need, similar days > to those not before, yet stored, whose sifted haze > pretaxed a little roughage for the good of order modified by "the" > "annotated""Notley-esque""hurly-burly""wigwam" "of" "the" "type" "that" "you" "find" "in" "ego" "commisures" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 05:16:49 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: downstream diddly sqwawk > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The caravan of windows to what they flee > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > condemmed. > promised what she practiced as triangular blue feats soothed > stunned images into form, saying a need, similar days > to those not before, yet stored, whose sifted haze > pretaxed a little roughage for the good of order modified by "the" > "annotated""Notley-esque""hurly-burly""wigwam" > imagery, with its narrative cast, in realtime installations. But unlike news on the hour, with your anchor, Foghorn Leghorn ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 05:36:47 EDT Reply-To: beard@metdp1.met.co.nz Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: beard@MET.CO.NZ Subject: folk rhythms & forms/Walters Comments: To: w.curnow@auckland.ac.nz Wystan wrote: >Tom, I don't understand 'formal possibilities, without any necessary >reference to its cultural origins and context.'? First this is not the same >as the Reily (sic) proposition, which refers to not 'understanding' the >context concerned. Walters certainly did understand the context, indeed >his understanding among Pakeha artists of the period was rivalled only >by his friend Theo Schoon. I certainly didn't mean to imply that Walters didn't understand the cultural context of the koru - perhaps I worded my post poorly. What I meant was that a _viewer_ can appreciate the formal patterns in a Walters painting without having any knowledge of maoritanga her- or himself. A naive viewer (such as myself :-) ) can enjoy the visual rhythms and shifting figure/ground relationships of these paintings while knowing next to nothing about what the koru design means to Maori. It's in _this_ sense that I think the misunderstanding (or more likely non-understanding) can be creative. As Jonathon said, >Unencumbered >by its original cultural baggage, the relatively regimented forms >of making and doing within one culture are free to evolve in new >directions when adapted by another. While "cultural baggage" has the wrong connotations in this context, I think that it's fair to say that Walters' paintings have "evolve[d] in new directions", with the koru (at least to some eyes) as abstract design rather than signifier (what does the koru signify to the average Pakeha, other than Air NZ?). I agree that Walters has great understanding of and sensitivity to Maori culture (as his titles show - good point). But he has still been attacked for "appropriating" the koru, and desecrating it by taking it out of context. I have a vague recollection that Ngahuia te Awekotuku was offended by a title that (I think) translates to "prayer" in English. >Second, the notion that you can explore a form >with any necessary reference to cultural context is a modernist heresy. No >PC police required there. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean "with_out_ any necessary reference"? And I'm intrigued by your use of the word "heresy". A heresy implies an orthodoxy (and hence a police :-) ) - against which orthodoxy does one trespass when exploring a form outside of its cultural context? And are you using "heresy" in the pejorative sense? I'm quite partial to heresies, myself. To bring this back to poetics, is it heresy to write a haiku (or indeed a renga) without any knowledge of or reference to its place within Japanese culture? Is it heretical to take phrases from (say) an American fashion magazine and combine them into a found poem without any reference to their original context? "Heresy, man!" Tom. ______________________________________________________________________________ I/am a background/process, shrunk to an icon. | Tom Beard I am/a dark place. | beard@metdp1.met.co.nz I am less/than the sum of my parts... | Auckland, New Zealand I am necessary/but not sufficient, | http://metcon.met.co.nz/ and I shall teach the stars to fall | nwfc/beard/www/hallway.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 23:59:05 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: Re: Canessa Park reading series Comments: To: Colleen Lookingbill On 6 Aug 95 at 19:24, Colleen Lookingbill wrote: > To the List: > > Canessa Park Reading and Talk Series is has the new fall schedule completed. On which continent, etc, is this? ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/ Online Representative, Austin International Poetry Festival \| / Joe Zitt's Home Page\ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 21:53:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Rengaphobia In-Reply-To: <199508051113.EAA10961@ix4.ix.netcom.com> from "Ron Silliman" at Aug 5, 95 04:13:33 am Hey, who among us draws "theoretical conclusions." Ron. All the theory that speaks to me over the past 30 years has persuaded me that my old aversion to conclusions was right. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 21:50:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Rengaphobia In-Reply-To: <01HTPQ07ZK2A8Y4YPY@albnyvms.BITNET> from "Chris Stroffolino" at Aug 5, 95 12:35:40 pm Hey, there isnt any tension between Silliman and Bowering. We are brothers, for Pete's sake. And I got nothing against renga. I just like a more varied mailbox. I'd just like to know how tall Ron is. Dies that renga bell? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 21:44:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome In-Reply-To: <9508052043.AA00996@infolink.infolink.morris.mn.us> from "Jonathan Brannen" at Aug 5, 95 03:43:30 pm Responding to Jonathan Brannen post of Aug 5: No, no. I come from a small town in the west; and back there "artiste" meant something else altogether. There have been several political positions taken re that. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 21:32:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Renga3? In-Reply-To: <199508061245.IAA09173@yorick.umd.edu> from "Tom Mandel" at Aug 6, 95 08:45:40 am >In the pockets were coats and in the coats were pockets > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > would calmness be without the stain of possession and > In the windows were reflections and in the reflections were windows The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The caravan of windows to what they flee > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > between the breasts were lips and between the lips were breasts kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection > prickling with tenors, saving arrogance for free choice, long division > with its equally long aftertaste, or did its overtone > flicka my wrist and kicka my foot and tilta my head ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 15:40:05 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms Comments: To: beard@MET.CO.NZ On Aug 6, Tom Beard wrote: Jonathon said, >I believe in was the composer Terry Reily speaking of his composition C >who said that progress in the arts frequently resulted from members of >one culture imitate the style and methods of another culture without >understanding its context within the original culture. Unencumbered >by its original cultural baggage, the relatively regimented forms >of making and doing within one culture are free to evolve in new >directions when adapted by another. Yes, exactly! But when the _imitator_ is from a culture that has colonised theculture that produced the _imititated_ form, the imitator better watchout for the PC police. Viz Gordon Walters' use of the Maori koru design, and his wonderful explorations of its formal possibilities, without any necessary reference to its cultural origins and context. But that's "appropriation" (sorry guys, didn't see the copyright symbol) and hence not on. Are we allowed to use (e.g.) the myths of other cultures in our writings, in whatever way we want, or do we have to sit a test to prove our cultural sensitivity? Tom, I don't understand 'formal possibilities, without any necessary reference to its cultural origins and context.'? First this is not the same as the Reily (sic) proposition, which refers to not 'understanding' the context concerned. Walters certainly did understand the context,indeed his understanding among Pakeha artists of the period was rivalled only by his friend Theo Schoon. Second, the notion that you can explore a form with any necessary reference to cultural context is a modernist heresy. No PC police required there. And third, if there is no necessary reference to Maori origins and context why did Walters give the pAintings Maori names? Wystan _ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 21:19:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome In-Reply-To: from "Wystan Curnow" at Aug 7, 95 01:31:27 pm I pretty well agree with Wystan. I am usually suspicious of those words one sees in reviews, such as "rigor" or "sinuous prose" or the like. I am also repelled by awkwardnesses caused by she/he or that really unattractive (s)he, etc. I am not afraid of "slippery landscapes," either, living in a rainy climate. I am not interested much in rules and proscriptions. If you dont like to read Ishmael Reed because he is adjudged misogynist in some circles (usually of inferior writers), then dont read him. Ditto for Pound if you will not read anti-semite social creditors. As it says in the Bible, "go ye forth and write." I usually find that I enjoy reading writing a lot more than confronting ideas that come thru uninspired prose. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 03:58:53 EDT Reply-To: beard@metdp1.met.co.nz Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: beard@MET.CO.NZ Subject: More corrections Here's Microsoft Word's "correction" of Catullus XI, followed by a poem that the NZers on the list should easily recognise. Furry ate aurally Fury eat aureole, commits chattily, sue in extremes penetrate indoors, litmus out lounge resonant era tuned otter undo, sire in hyraces Arabs molest, sea sagas Seagate ferrous pathos, site quake septum gaminess colorant aqua aura nil's, site trains atlas grad outer aloes, caesuras unisons monument mango, gallium rhenium horrible ere quire util- mosque Britons, ammonia haiku, queer kumquat ferret colon task camel item, tempter simile parrot, pause noontide mead paella non bona dicta. cum suits eau valet queen mochas, quasi simile complex tenet trek scents, null amass ere, sew ides tedium ominous Iliad rumens; neck mum receptor, out ante, amore, quip lilies cult sec idiot use lute pretty ultimo floss, praetor aunt post qualm cactus Atari east. Poker care any Pokier Karen Anna nag way of waif ape. White ate doe, a hike, marina anal a! I hide a, hockey may ram! Qua mate ahead I tea aroma a! I Korea the aloha a maraca I toe rag. Mack tofu I auk roommate a! I whine a, hooky maid ran! Kay mate ahead I tie aorta a! Thai thug take recta, tutu at tack ring. Kid kite to kiwi, rare rare any a! I hinge a, hooch Mao rap! Qua mate ahead I the aloha a! Whereto wheat take pence, eau Peru auk pepper. Quo take aroma maul tong ant a! I hive a, hock maim rat! Kay mate oh I ate aorta a! ______________________________________________________________________________ I/am a background/process, shrunk to an icon. | Tom Beard I am/a dark place. | beard@metdp1.met.co.nz I am less/than the sum of my parts... | Auckland, New Zealand I am necessary/but not sufficient, | http://metcon.met.co.nz/ and I shall teach the stars to fall | nwfc/beard/www/hallway.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 22:48:16 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: ringing renga I think the renga has finally drowned out just about everything else. It's rather daunting having 30 or more renga messages in only one day. I like the renga, but I like the else, too. charles alexander [===========^^============] [ <> ] chax press [ maybe a <> pages ] [ time <> letters ] phone & fax: 612-721-6063 [ upon <> frames ] [ once <> motion ] e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu [ <> ] [===========vv============] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 15:30:29 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms boats connect islands as cars (automobiles) connect towns and cities in land-mass continent countries "nations" are made up in clusters and archipelagos of islands in watery zones there are spaces between "nations" in oceans that's something different too that's what you're saying? Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 22:48:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Baudelaire In-Reply-To: <199508070458.XAA19252@zoom.bga.com> Hi, list. I was wondering if anybody would be willing to reflect back to me their experiences with various translations of Baudelaire. I am not interested in establishing whether one translation is considered "best" or "definitive", but if anyone knows one or more translations, tell me--did it come close, inasmuch as that's possible, or did it completely miss the old bateau ivre? Thanks-- Gwyn McVay gmcvay1@osf1.gmu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 23:19:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <30264ae70374002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> On Mon, 7 Aug 1995, maria damon wrote: > In message <199508062218.PAA12484@bob.indirect.com> UB Poetics discussion group > writes: > > >> >> > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > >> >> > > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > >> >> > > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > >> >> > > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > >> >> > > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > >> >> > > The caravan of windows to what they flee > > >> >> > > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > >> >> > > Power to the spider, virtuous in act if not intent > > >> >> > > Sight over sound for "justice," O cubes of Cuba! Where > > >> >> > > would calmness be without the stain of possession and > > >> >> > Belief. A mirage effect, art, made to waver in > > >> >> > a modicum of chocolate milk. Not too late for > > >> >the phalarope, anodyne, cynesure, palindrome or rapturous whatnots > > >> doused in chemicals resembling chemlab outputs straining to be > > >> with their rehab brothers & sisters in the metaphor they lived by > > patching rent with cyclical amendments, dotted swiss and white pleats > bleating, and linen is definitely the poets' fabric of choice this summer > but the buccaneers of opinion are at their desks while we play ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 15:05:08 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome Comments: To: damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU Maria, guitart a here! Wystan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 23:49:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Brannen Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome Responding to George Bowering 6 Aug; Ok, George, if you're certain. Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 22:29:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: folk rhythms & forms In-Reply-To: <30264c8a0fce002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> from "maria damon" at Aug 7, 95 12:25:32 pm maria's song is truly the bestest. I would like to start singing a round via email. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 02:40:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Rengada In And flew First The book and Go endlessly, The caravan These lace Power Sight would Belief a modicum the phalarope doused with their patching rent bleating, ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 02:44:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Rengaphobia George Bowering wrote: >Hey, who among us draws "theoretical conclusions." Ron. All the >theory that speaks to me over the past 30 years has persuaded me that >my old aversion to conclusions was right. > Oh. I thought that was an "aversion to concussions." I stands corrected. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 02:46:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Rengaphobia >I'd just like to know how tall Ron is. 5'9", 205 pounds, same dimensions as Kevin Mitchell (without the gold tooth) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 08:07:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Baudelaire In-Reply-To: from "Gwyn McVay" at Aug 7, 95 10:48:33 pm Baudelaire sure missed the ole bateau ivre --that was rimbaud's trip... > > Hi, list. I was wondering if anybody would be willing to reflect back to > me their experiences with various translations of Baudelaire. I am not > interested in establishing whether one translation is considered "best" > or "definitive", but if anyone knows one or more translations, tell > me--did it come close, inasmuch as that's possible, or did it completely > miss the old bateau ivre? > > Thanks-- > > > Gwyn McVay > gmcvay1@osf1.gmu.edu > ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Poems are sketches for existence." Dept. of English | --Paul Celan SUNY Albany | Albany NY 12222 | "Revisionist plots tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | are everywhere and our pronouns haven't yet email: | drawn up plans for the first coup." joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --J.H. Prynne ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 07:35:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Paul Naylor ok 157602 Subject: Nathaniel Mackey's CD Nathaniel Mackey's compact disk, _Strick: Song of the Andoumboulou 16-25_, is now available from _Spoken Engine_. On this high-quality, digital recording, Mackey reads ten recent installments from his ongoing serial poem, _Song of the Andoumboulou_,to the accompaniment of Royal Hartigan on percussion and Hafez Modirzadeh on reeds and flute. The CD costs $14, postage paid. Make checks payable to _Spoken Engine_ and send to Spoken Engine P.O. Box 771739 Memphis, TN 38177-1739 MAIL SEND in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" SEND in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 09:05:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: Baudelaire In-Reply-To: <199508081207.IAA13544@thor.albany.edu> Yeah, yeah. But everybody always says them together like they were joined at the hip or something--Baudelairerimbaudverlaine, etc.--so I figured they could at least be sitting in the same boat. On Tue, 8 Aug 1995, Pierre Joris wrote: > Baudelaire sure missed the ole bateau ivre --that was rimbaud's > trip... > > > > > Hi, list. I was wondering if anybody would be willing to reflect back to > > me their experiences with various translations of Baudelaire. I am not > > interested in establishing whether one translation is considered "best" > > or "definitive", but if anyone knows one or more translations, tell > > me--did it come close, inasmuch as that's possible, or did it completely > > miss the old bateau ivre? > > > > Thanks-- > > > > > > Gwyn McVay > > gmcvay1@osf1.gmu.edu > > > > > > ======================================================================= > Pierre Joris | "Poems are sketches for existence." > Dept. of English | --Paul Celan > SUNY Albany | > Albany NY 12222 | "Revisionist plots > tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | are everywhere and our pronouns haven't yet > email: | drawn up plans for the first coup." > joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --J.H. Prynne > ======================================================================= > Gwyn McVay gmcvay1@osf1.gmu.edu "When I hear the word 'gun' I reach for my art." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 09:42:47 -0400 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: Baudelaire Gwyn's query about Baudelaire came in just after Tom Beard's /Microsoft's corrections to Cattulus; that "coincidence" reminded me of a collection i put out of Baudelaire translitterations by Andrew Klimek--human, not mechanical, intervention... The He Who Is Autonomous, Timorous, & Few I am the milkshake without color And without hands, come the butcher, Come Moses the rocker! And I am wild as a pauper, For the abbreviation of my Sahara, The jailer has the eyes of Southern France. My desire has gone, fled the desperation Over the black's salty tears. Comes a vassal who pretends to be so large, And in my heart quills and coins descend The chairs of bloodspots retire Come the tambourine who ducks the charge Nor am I in false accord In the divine symphony, Grace of voracious Irony Who has secured me and who has killed me? Elle is in my voice, the crier! It's all of my blood, the poison black! I am the sinister mirror Or am meagerly regarded! I am the place and the Cocteau! I am the souffle and the joy! I am the members and the red, And the victim and the ass! I am of the heart of the vampire, --One of the great abandoners Of the eternal dire damnings, And who never cries more than laughs! --Andrew Klimek from _Flowers of Mel_ Burning Press, 1990 luigi TRR/Burning Press au462@cleveland.freenet.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 09:47:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Baudelaire In-Reply-To: from "Gwyn McVay" at Aug 8, 95 09:05:45 am ...also known as the "three men in a boat" version of frog lit...BTW re The Drunken Boat, check out Clayton Eshleman's version in his _Conductors of the Pit_. It's one of the more impossible poems to translate. Of that threesome, drop Verlaine & substitute Nerval -- much better poet, & some excellent translations of the great sonnets by Robin Blaser (plus criticism of those by Duncan). ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Poems are sketches for existence." Dept. of English | --Paul Celan SUNY Albany | Albany NY 12222 | "Revisionist plots tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | are everywhere and our pronouns haven't yet email: | drawn up plans for the first coup." joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --J.H. Prynne ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 09:07:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Rengaphobia In message <199508080946.CAA11474@ix7.ix.netcom.com> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > >I'd just like to know how tall Ron is. > > > 5'9", 205 pounds, same dimensions as Kevin Mitchell (without the gold > tooth) who's kevin mitchell? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 09:18:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: republicans a little gem to lance your day...md ------------ Forwarded Message begins here ------------ Subject: House Republicans Vote Down Fourth Amendment > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date sent: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 08:54:34 EST > Send reply to: Association of Black Sociologists > > > Here is a little tidbit that should cause everyone on this list to say Hmmm. > a funny (as in "disturbing," not "hilarious") anecdote: i didn't hear > about this when it happened. > > ========== > February 7, 1995 - House Republicans Vote Down Fourth Amendment > > Once again, here I go including something not strictly Newt. Gingrich > is however the leader of the House Republicans so ... During the > debate today over the House Republicans' bill about the Exclusionary > Rule, the House Black Caucus introduced an amendment to the bill that > the Republicans promptly voted down. The amendment turned out to be > the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution, verbatim. The House > Republicans were "chagrined." The vote was 303-121, meaning that a > number of Democrats joined the Republicans. > > > Here's the Fourth Amendment: > > Amendment Article 4 > > Right of Search and Seizure Regulated. > > The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, > and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be > violated, and no warrants shall issue but upon probable cause, supported by > oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, > and the persons or things to be seized. > ======= > > > Hard to believe they didn't recognize the language. I hope > they were all thouroughly embarrassed. > > Dan ------------ Forwarded Message ends here ------------ ------------ Forwarded Message ends here ------------ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 09:23:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Baudelaire In message <199508081347.JAA00597@loki.hum.albany.edu> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > ....also known as the "three men in a boat" version of frog lit...BTW > re The Drunken Boat, check out Clayton Eshleman's version in his > _Conductors of the Pit_. It's one of the more impossible poems to > translate. Of that threesome, drop Verlaine & substitute Nerval -- > much better poet, & some excellent translations of the great sonnets > by Robin Blaser (plus criticism of those by Duncan). > >pj speaking of AR, i know louise varese's translation of some of the letters and Illuminations is spozed to be good, but she translates "je est un autre" as "i am someone else," or something like that (don't have the book in front of me), which i think domesticates a really wild statement in an unfortunate way. what's the opinion of relatively more native speakers (I know yr not "french", pj, but yr knowledge thereof is certainly vast...)--md ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 11:04:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Baudelaire In-Reply-To: <3027734f5f37002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> from "maria damon" at Aug 8, 95 09:23:14 am md writes: > speaking of AR, i know louise varese's translation of some of the letters and > Illuminations is spozed to be good, but she translates "je est un autre" as "i > am someone else," or something like that (don't have the book in front of me), > which i think domesticates a really wild statement in an unfortunate way. what's > the opinion of relatively more native speakers (I know yr not "french", pj, but > yr knowledge thereof is certainly vast...)--md don't know if it's vast, Maria, but thanks for lancing my day that way. The Varese translations were excvellent, but are in need of overwhaul. The famous sentence you quote is (& has beeen) much better translated as "I is another." pj ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Poems are sketches for existence." Dept. of English | --Paul Celan SUNY Albany | Albany NY 12222 | "Revisionist plots tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | are everywhere and our pronouns haven't yet email: | drawn up plans for the first coup." joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --J.H. Prynne ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 11:03:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Willa Jarnagin Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome In-Reply-To: <199508042208.PAA15042@fraser.sfu.ca> > > "I believe the spelling is guitar." > > Probably he meant to say > > "I believe that the spelling is guitar." > Yes, but do you BELIEVE in guitar? Willa ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 11:10:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: desire / and the 39 steps mirrors picking up self to flower, flame, in darkened summer room: he, all joy, compatriot, companion, the elemental he for whom all care is urgent, needed now. and so the petals open and in budding, joy is termination, mine. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 12:20:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome In-Reply-To: Who or what is "guitart" On Tue, 8 Aug 1995, Wystan Curnow wrote: > Maria, > guitart a here! > > Wystan > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 12:27:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Rengada In-Reply-To: <199508080940.CAA11179@ix7.ix.netcom.com> Ron's song to which i wish to add: > In > And flew > First > The book and > Go endlessly, > The caravan > These lace > Power > Sight > would > Belief > a modicum > the phalarope > doused > with their > patching rent > bleating, but i'll go swinging & a-rengaing with my very favorite maria the one they call nomad-air-am ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 11:34:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Baudelaire The famous sentence you quote is (& has beeen) much better > translated as "I is another." > pj > > yes, and i also like to think of it as "'I' is an/Other." with lots of little estranging punctuation marks for defamiliarising overkill.--md ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 18:16:33 BST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "I.LIGHTMAN" Subject: Re: Baudelaire Just to recommend a stunning book, translating and re-translating the same single Baudelaire poem forty times, called Spleen, by Nicholas Moore, a British poet; he wrote all the poems as an angry response to a translation competition run by a British newspaper in the sixties, and sent each one under a more and more ridiculous psuedonym, until the judge, George Steiner, spotted the game, and awarded a Special Mention prize; I'll bring in some of the translations and put them on the list in the next few days. I think, myself, that Baudelaire has suffered from being block-translated, ie the whole of the Sulky Flowers (ho ho) book, by one translator commissioned by a publisher; he would be best served by an anthology of translations by many translators, I feel, Ira Lightman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 12:33:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome u tell me.--md someone writes: > Who or what is "guitart" > > On Tue, 8 Aug 1995, Wystan Curnow wrote: > > > Maria, > > guitart a here! > > > > Wystan > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 12:35:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Rengada In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Ron's song to which i wish to add: > > > In > > And flew > > First > > The book and > > Go endlessly, > > The caravan > > These lace > > Power > > Sight > > would > > Belief > > a modicum > > the phalarope > > doused > > with their > > patching rent > > bleating, > but i'll go swinging > & a-rengaing > with my very favorite maria > the one they call > nomad-air-am om gate gate parasam guitarte nam yo ho RENGA kyo ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 08:12:23 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: Renga 1 In-Reply-To: <199508061241.IAA09126@yorick.umd.edu> On Sun, 6 Aug 1995, Tom Mandel wrote: > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The caravan of windows to what they flee > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > condemmed. > promised what she practiced as triangular blue feats soothed > stunned images into form, saying a need, similar days > to those not before, yet stored, whose sifted haze burst into joyous worm worm through a papaya hot morning ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 08:16:19 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: Rengaphobia In-Reply-To: <30276f904326002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> A baseball player. Plays in Japan now when he's not pouting. On Tue, 8 Aug 1995, maria damon wrote: > In message <199508080946.CAA11474@ix7.ix.netcom.com> UB Poetics discussion > group writes: > > >I'd just like to know how tall Ron is. > > > > > > 5'9", 205 pounds, same dimensions as Kevin Mitchell (without the gold > > tooth) > > who's kevin mitchell? > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 11:19:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: Rengada In-Reply-To: <3027a0674905002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> from "maria damon" at Aug 8, 95 12:35:37 pm Oh mY, everything is now subject to rengafication! Identity crises abound. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 11:21:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Harper In-Reply-To: <30264ab00193002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> from "maria damon" at Aug 7, 95 12:17:38 pm Can somebody help me. I recently heard a reading given by Michael S. Harper and need some of his bood titles. Thanks. Ryan Knighton knighton@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 08:18:48 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: Renga3? In-Reply-To: <199508061818.LAA09763@bob.indirect.com> On Sun, 6 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >would calmness be without the stain of possession and > >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >The caravan of windows to what they flee > >These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >& opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > >halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection > >prickling with tenors, saving arrogance for free choice, long division > >with its equally long aftertaste, or did its overtone > collapse a wild sugar ago the fleet of cabernet oblivions for > outrage. Marketing posture allowed gravel a way home ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 08:25:39 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: Renga 1 In-Reply-To: On Sun, 6 Aug 1995, Jorge Guitart wrote: > On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > > > >> > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > >> > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > >> > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > >> > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > >> > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > >> > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > > >> > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > >> > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > >> > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > >> > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > >> > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > >> > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > >> > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > > >> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > > >> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection > > denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > who do you think is at the end of this shaft if it isn't ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 08:32:38 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: Renga2? In-Reply-To: On Sun, 6 Aug 1995, Jorge Guitart wrote: > On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Charles Alexander wrote: > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > The caravan of windows to what they flee > > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > Power to the spider, virtuous in act if not intent > > Sight over sound for "justice," O cubes of Cuba! Where > > would calmness be without the stain of possession and > > Belief. A mirage effect, art, made to waver in > > a modicum of chocolate milk. Not too late for > > the phalarope, anodyne, cynesure, palindrome or rapturous whatnots > > doused in chemicals resembling chemlab outputs straining to be > > loons in a lake one can see through, diving between sunrises > > with a modicum of surprise, as in "Mr. Chimaera, please report to the > barnacle ormorderately or isn't it proper to sandwich ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 11:11:02 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerry Rothenberg Subject: Re: Baudelaire Since Pierre Joris is my dear friend & sometime collaborator, let me put in a bid to open up the word "another" & bring it back to two words; thus: "I is an other." At least that's how we have it in zee big new anthology, Pierre: page 44 of the recently acquired bound pages -- & a much better entry into questions of "self" & "other." Talk to you soon. JERRY ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 14:39:35 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: ringing renga Charles, Only thirty rengas per day? I have sixty-two total messages today, in less than 24 hours. But if I can just see a subject heading that indicates some renga-izing is going to follow, then perhaps i can delete that message and go on. unfortunately, now some folks are using the subject headings where some non-renga-izing was taking place, so I'm really all turned around here and DROWNING IN RENGA! AGHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! EVEN AS i WRITE MORE RENGAS ARE PORING IN! (help) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 08:40:22 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: Renga 1 In-Reply-To: <199508062220.PAA12494@bob.indirect.com> On Sun, 6 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >> >> > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> >> > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> >> > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> >> > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> >> > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> >> > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > >> >> > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >> >> > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >> >> > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >> >> > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >> >> > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >> >> > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >> >> > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >> >> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >> >> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > >> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection > >> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 08:42:51 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: eR 1 In-Reply-To: <199508062223.PAA12532@bob.indirect.com> On Sun, 6 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > > > >> >On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Thomas Bell wrote: > >> > > >> >> On Aug 3 Hank Lazer wrote: > >> >> > >> >> On Aug 3 Marissa Januzzi wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Jorge Guitart wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > > On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >adding to Ron Silliman's addition -- > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> >> > > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> >> > > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> >> > > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> >> > > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> >> > > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > >> >> > > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >> >> > > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >> >> > > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >> >> > > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >> >> > > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >> >> > > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >> >> > > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >> >> > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >> >> ><< lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the > >> >> morning > >> >> from the books out of the dreams away from the lonesome > >> >> wail of the glob that cradles in its claws The Anthology > >> >> of retrospective prescience sanded down to mean the elbows > cleanly > >> fit to be you or the phantasm that space foreclosed when the > first sentence spilled from heaven wheat of some kind blistered and untuned > by the harpie of space here for add in whatever you choose or not ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 14:47:21 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: Baudelaire Gwyn, Regarding trans. of Baudelaire: what do you mean by "close" translation? Burt ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 14:55:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Renga 1 In-Reply-To: On Tue, 8 Aug 1995, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > On Sun, 6 Aug 1995, Tom Mandel wrote: > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > The caravan of windows to what they flee > > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > condemmed. > > promised what she practiced as triangular blue feats soothed > > stunned images into form, saying a need, similar days > > to those not before, yet stored, whose sifted haze > burst into joyous worm worm through a papaya hot morning not without counterbleeding the omega of the knowable ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 15:01:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: Renga3? On Sun, 6 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: On Aug 8 G Welford wrote: > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >would calmness be without the stain of possession and > >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >The caravan of windows to what they flee > >These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >& opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > >halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection > >prickling with tenors, saving arrogance for free choice, long division > >with its equally long aftertaste, or did its overtone > collapse a wild sugar ago the fleet of cabernet oblivions for > outrage. Marketing posture allowed gravel a way home My dream a drink w/ Douglas Coupland. We discuss "The Code of the Net" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 15:03:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Baudelaire In-Reply-To: <9508081811.AA26156@carla.UCSD.EDU> from "Jerry Rothenberg" at Aug 8, 95 11:11:02 am I sit co rrected, Jerome, of course it's an other. The space between makes the difference indeed. > > Since Pierre Joris is my dear friend & sometime collaborator, let me put in > a bid to open up the word "another" & bring it back to two words; thus: > "I is an other." At least that's how we have it in zee big new anthology, > Pierre: page 44 of the recently acquired bound pages -- & a much better > entry into questions of "self" & "other." > > Talk to you soon. > > JERRY > ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Poems are sketches for existence." Dept. of English | --Paul Celan SUNY Albany | Albany NY 12222 | "Revisionist plots tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | are everywhere and our pronouns haven't yet email: | drawn up plans for the first coup." joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --J.H. Prynne ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 16:00:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: Baudelaire In-Reply-To: <00994926.54F84834.32@admin.njit.edu> Burt, "Close"--that's a good question. I'm reading Donald Revell's translation of Apollinaire's _Alcools_ right now, and while it departs considerably, at times, from the literal French, the *quality* of the language--sound quality, use of syntax and connotation--works very well. I guess by "close" I mean something like "expressing, as much as is possible, the poetics/sensibility of the original." Gwyn McVay gmcvay1@osf1.gmu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 15:33:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Baudelaire In message <9508081811.AA26156@carla.UCSD.EDU> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Since Pierre Joris is my dear friend & sometime collaborator, let me put in > a bid to open up the word "another" & bring it back to two words; thus: > "I is an other." At least that's how we have it in zee big new anthology, > Pierre: page 44 of the recently acquired bound pages -- & a much better > entry into questions of "self" & "other." > > Talk to you soon. > > JERRY yay. i like this way.--md ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 11:05:17 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland Subject: Re: Rengada Comments: To: damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU > Ron's song to which i wish, after maria, to add: > > > In > > And flew > > First > > The book and > > Go endlessly, > > The caravan > > These lace > > Power > > Sight > > would > > Belief > > a modicum > > the phalarope > > doused > > with their > > patching rent > > bleating, > but i'll go swinging > & a-rengaing > with my very favorite maria > the one they call > nomad-air-am om gate gate parasam guitarte nam yo ho RENGA kyo rosie a gog oh renga renga little ripper ich ich ich ich the misanthrope on a rope in his tent a active agent an expletive after explosions the whole hokey ball of tarts got up to ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 21:44:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Brannen Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome Response to Willa Jarnagin, I believe in guitar and non-standard tunings as well. Best, Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 19:45:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: CC field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. Comments: RFC822 error: CC field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. Comments: RFC822 error: CC field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. Comments: RFC822 error: CC field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. Comments: RFC822 error: CC field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. Comments: RFC822 error: CC field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. Comments: RFC822 error: CC field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. Comments: RFC822 error: CC field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. Comments: RFC822 error: CC field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. Comments: RFC822 error: CC field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. Comments: RFC822 error: CC field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. Comments: RFC822 error: CC field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. Comments: RFC822 error: CC field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Ron Silliman Subject: Mumia Abu-Jamal Comments: cc: woodland@tmn.com You don't have to be tenured (or even University affiliated) to sign this, nor from the Tri-State area. You don't (if you have followed this case at all) even have to believe in/assert Abu-Jamal's innocence. His trial and subsequent legal misadventures have been like the Worst of the 60s redux when it comes to basic travesties. Feel free to pass this on! Ron Silliman ------------------------------------- Forwarding this in hope that list members will be interested in lending their support for Mumia Abu-Jamal, who remains on death row in Philadelphia even though he just yesterday received a stay of execution. Abu-Jamal was among the founders of the Philly Black Panthers in the 1960s. Prosecutors have consistently used his political writings from the 1960s and early 1970s to establish his guilt in the killing of a local police officer. If any of you doubt the relevance of Abu-Jamal's case to the topics discussed on this list, look no further than today's NYT, which explains that "The hearing, like the trial, has been haunted by the unresolved political and cultural conflicts of the 1960's and 1970's...." Marc Stein, History Departments, University of Pennsylvania/Bryn Mawr College mstein1@sas.upenn.edu SEND YOUR NAME FOR INCLUSION TO f40taylr@ptsmail.ptsem.edu A M A J Academics for Mumia Abu-Jamal ________________________________________________________________________ ___ FOR IMMEDIATE ATTENTION JULY 27, 1995 CONTACTS: AMAJ Coordinator, Prof. Mark McClain Taylor, Princeton Theological Seminary, P.O. Box 821, Princeton, NJ 08542. Phone: (609) 497-7918. Fax: (609) 497-7728. E-Mail: Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Islands In-Reply-To: On Mon, 7 Aug 1995, Wystan Curnow wrote: > Dear Gabrielle, > Do you have in mind the material on the settlement of > Polynesia? The emerging picture of an Age of Discovery, with planned voy- > ages ranging over 1000s of miles of the Pacific? Yes, that's just what I was thinking of. And at a Pacific Writers Forum last year, people agreed that there is still a tight web of relationship wherever islanders are. They send and bring things back and forth among family members who have stayed and ones who have left. I found this to be true when I was living in Ireland too. Something about islands. I've just got back from an > incredible week on Cheju, an island off the coast of South Korea, which was > the venue for an exhibition of art from Japan, Korea, the Philipines, > Indonesia, Australia and New Zealand. The theme was 'From Island to Island'. > Billed as a Pre-Biennale, they plan a full-scale international event in > 1998 with the same theme. I wasn't entirely clear but had the impression > they may limit the invitations to islands. Maria's posting suggests some of > the richness of the notion of island culture. > Wystan Gabrielle ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 21:51:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Brannen Subject: Re: Baudelaire Ira, Who published the Nicholas Moore book Spleen? Best Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 17:02:10 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: more crazies (fwd) speaking of gender, more to be scared by... Gab. The promise keepers held a rally in Houston at the Astro Dome recently. Fourty two thousand paid approx. $50 a head to attend. With that kind of money the crazies can get people like Dole and Green Wrench to do almost any thing! REPRINTED WITH PERMISSION IN GROUND ZERO NEWS, THE PUBLICATION OF GROUND ZERO, A GAY AND LESBIAN ADVOCACY ORGANISATION IN THE BELLY OF THE BEAST, (THE VATICAN OF FUNDAMENTALISM), COLORADO SPRINGS COLORADO. ADDRESS CORRESPONDENCE TO: GZ P. O. BOX 1982, COLORADO SPRINGS, CO 80901 1-719-635-6086 FAX: 1-719-635-6106 EMAI;: GRNDZEROCO@A0L..COM By Russ BELLANT* Mania in the Stadia: The Origins and Goals of Promise Keepers** Promise Keepers is a rapidly growing Christian men's movement that last year rallied about 300,000 men, filling six football stadia in colorful displays of male "spiritual renewal." The group plans to double the number of participants and stadium events in 1995. While projecting an image of spirituality, leaders of Promise Keepers seem to be bent on gaining social and political power. In the world of Promise Keepers, men are to submit to a cell group that in turn is closely controlled by a national hierarchy. Most important, women are to submit absolutely to their husbands or fathers. Promise Keepers may be the strongest, most organized effort to capitalize on male backlash in the country today. Conceived by University of Colorado football coach Bill McCartney in 1990 Promise Keepers says men should "reclaim" authority from their wives - to whom they have supposedly ceded too much. Bill McCartney's goal in 1990 was to fill a sports stadium with Christian men to exhort them into his philosophy. The following year, he attracted 4,200 men to a basketball arena; 22,000 men came to Boulder's Folsom Stadium in 1992,1 followed by 50,000 men in 1993. Promoted by powerful elements of the Religious Right, Promise Keepers filled six stadia in 1994; the largest event was in the Hoosier Dome in Indianapolis, which drew 62,000 men. The only women present were custodians and concession stand workers.2 So far in 1995, Promise Keepers events in Detroit and Los Angeles have drawn over 72,000 each.# (Ed. Note--Denver recently exceeded expectations ) Don't Ask, Take The manifesto of the movement is Seven Promises of a Promise Keeper, a book published for the group by James Dobson's organization, Focus on the Family.4 Evangelist Tony Brown, in his contributing essay, explains how to deal with women. "I can hear you saying, 'I want to be a spiritually pure man. Where do I start?' The first thing you do," Brown explains, "is sit down with your wife and say something like this: 'Honey I've made a terrible mistake. I've given you my role. I gave up leading this family, and I forced you to take my place. Now I must reclaim that role.' Don't misunderstand what I'm saying here. I'm not suggesting that you ask for your role back, I'm urging you to take it back." [Emphasis in the original].5 While insisting to male readers that there is to be "no compromise" on authority, he suggests that women readers submit for the "survival of our culture." Total Submission While serving as an assistant football coach at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, Bill McCartney encountered and was deeply influenced by the Word of God (WOG) community. McCartney has said that WOG leader Jim Berlucci is one of the two men who most influenced his life.6 WOG, a select and insular group of about 1,600 adults, practiced "shepherding/discipleship," which required total submission to a person called the "head." Members were required to submit their schedules in advance and account for every hour of every day. Marriage partner, movie choices, jobs, and other decisions also had to be approved by this leader. Members who questioned authority or women who questioned their extreme submission to men, were subject to often traumatic "exorcisms." WOG members were trained to see the world with suspicion and contempt - as an enemy. They believed that they were specially chosen by God to fight the Antichrist.7 When McCartney was hired by the University of Colorado, WOG introduced him to the WOG-linked "Vineyard" church, which has a parish in Boulder. Vineyard churches emphasize "signs and wonders" and "prophecy." Vineyard leader John Wimber calls their work "power evangelism" and describes his followers as "self- conscious members of God's army, sent to do battle against the forces of the kingdom of darkness. "One is either in God's Kingdom," Wimber insists, "or Satan's."8 "The Purpose of War" McCartney's pastor at the Boulder Valley Vineyard, Rev. James Ryle, whom McCartney says is the other major influence in his life,9 conducts a ".prophetic" ministry and participates in conferences with men who claim to be prophets in the Ist-century sense of the term.IO Ryle believes Promise Keepers, of which he is a board member,11 is the fulfillment of the biblically prophesied end-time army described in the book of Joel - a terrifying army from which there is no escape. "Never have 300,000 men come together throughout human history, he declared, "except for the purpose of war." He says he has a vision of Promise Keepers purging America of secularism, which he con- siders "an abortion" of godliness.12 Ryle spoke last year at a secret Colorado conclave to plan anti-gay/lesbian electoral strategies. He said, "America is in the midst of a cultural revolution, which has poised our nation precariously on the brink of moral chaos, which is caused by what I am referring to as the crisis of homosexuality."13 While Promise Keepers is not currently a political force in its own right, McCartney leads by example. He has repeatedly attacked reproductive rights,14 and he campaigned for the 1992 anti-gay Amendment 2 ballot initiative as a member of the board of Colorado for Family Values, the sponsor of the initiative.15 His rally addresses have been uncompromising, "Take the nation for Jesus Christ," he directed in 1992.16 The following year he said, "What you are about to hear, is God's word to the men of this nation. We are going to war as of tonight. We have divine power; that is our weapon. We will not compromise. Wherever truth is at risk, in the schools or legislature, we are going to contend for it. We will win "17 No less militant is Promise Keepers co-founder Dave Wardell18 who told The Denver Post, "We want our nation to return to God. We're drawing a line in the sand here.... There has already been controversy about abortion and homosexuality. I hope there won't be any physical confrontations...... 19 Something Like Punching Your Lights Out Promise Keepers' national staff has grown rapidly from a handful to 150, with a $22 million budget.20 But its significance is primarily at the local and church levels. Promise Keepers urges men to form "accountability" groups of no more than five members, within which they are expected to submit all aspects of their lives to review and rebuke. Each member must answer any probes concerning his marriage, family, finances, sexuality, or business activity.21 (GZN Ed Note.: Such cells are said to exist at Focus on the Family among their employees and an employee that takes such things outside of their cell to discuss is in serious trouble.) Such cells, usually operating within a church or parachurch group, are led by a "Point Man" who answers to an "Ambassador" who reports to headquarters in Boulder. Decisions about local or state activity are ultimately made in Boulder.22 "All of our success here is contingent upon men taking part in small groups when they return home," Promise Keepers spokesman Steve Chavis told Christianity Today. Less elegantly, Dave Wardell, the national coordinator for local leaders, explains, "I can go home and maybe still be the same guy after a conference. But if I have another guy calling up, holding me accountable, asking, 'How are you treating your wife? Are you still cheating on your income taxes? Are you looking at your secretaries with lust?' it makes a difference. I don't think a woman would get in my face, go toe to toe with a guy, whereas a guy could tell me, 'I don't like it. And if you don't lis- ten to me, I'll punch your lights out.' Something like that."23 These principles and structure, which are similar to the shepherding/ discipleship model of the Word of God, would take years to implement and introduce a highly disciplined group. Most men drawn to Promise Keepers have probably never heard of shepherding/discipleship (which is still not widely known even within the evangelical community)24 and may be deeply offended if they experience the degree of manipulation and control (to which they may be "submitting" themselves and their families) as has occurred in many shepherding/disciple situations. Trojan Horses? Top Christian Right leaders in the last year have, joined Dobson in promoting Promise Keepers. These have notably included Pat Robertson of the Christian Coalition and 700 Club, D. James Kennedy of Coral Ridge Ministries, and Bill Bright of Campus Crusade for Christ. Dobson, who along with Robertson, Kennedy, and Bright, is a member of the secretive, radical-right Council for National Policy, 25 is a central figure in Promise Keepers. Not only is he the publisher of the main text of the movement, he is a featured speaker at Promise Keeper events, which in turn sell tapes of his speeches. Focus on the Family's network of political action groups, called community Impact Committees function much like Promise Keepers' cell groups within conservative churches. Largely invisible to individuals outside these churches, these committees are organized at the state and regional levels and controlled from Colorado.26 Both Dobson's Community Impact Committees and the Promise Keepers cells are potential Trojan horses within churches and denominations, creating conflicting loyalties and lines of authority. Leaders of Promise Keepers, in particular, comes out of a movement that sees denominations as inhibiting evangelism and revivalism. Indicative of this is its use of Strang Communications to publish New Man magazine. Strang's Charisma magazine is contemptuous of traditional denominations. The senior editor of Strang's New Ministries magazine, Jack Hayford, is also on the board of Promise Keepers. Promise Keepers has scheduled more than a dozen rallies for purity, fidelity and possibly social and political dominion for 1995. Promise Keepers had planned for over a year to draw one million men to a march in Washington, D.C. just prior to the November 1996 elections. Now postponed, the plans were evidently mod- eled after the Christian Right rallies called Washington for Jesus which had similar backing and were held during the presidential elections in 1980 and 1988.27 Considering the high-level backing by the leadership of the Christian Right, and the anti-democratic views of Promise Keepers' leaders, this movement ought not be underestimated. * Author Russ Bellant is well known in progressive circles as a major resource on the Radical Right. Two of his books, THE COORS CONNECTION and THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT, are staples in the Ground Zero News Reference Library and we have worn out several copies of each. **This article, as well as the article on Operation Rescue on P. 5 is taken from Front Lines Research, Vol. 1, Number 5, May, 1995 Issue. FLR is a publication of the Public Policy Institute, a project of Planned Parenthood Federation of America. Subscriptions are $35 per year ($18 low income), delivered by First Class Mail. Checks should be made to PPFA/Public Policy Institute., and should be sent with your request to FLR, 14th Floor, 810 7th Avenue, New York, New York 10019. ----- End of Forwarded message ----- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 21:17:16 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: Re: Renga3? [B[B> > > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > >would calmness be without the stain of possession and > > >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > >The caravan of windows to what they flee > > >These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > >Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > >but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > >Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > >& opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > >bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > >kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > > >gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > > >flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > > >halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection > > >prickling with tenors, saving arrogance for free choice, long division > > >with its equally long aftertaste, or did its overtone > > collapse a wild sugar ago the fleet of cabernet oblivions for > > outrage. Marketing posture allowed gravel a way home > My dream a drink w/ Douglas Coupland. We discuss > "The Code of the Net" >Snared in proselike flackjacket fashionwear, pockets of reverberating syllables ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 23:26:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Renga 1 In-Reply-To: On Tue, 8 Aug 1995, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > On Sun, 6 Aug 1995, Jorge Guitart wrote: > > > On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > > > > > >> > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > > >> > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > > >> > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > > >> > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > > >> > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > > >> > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > > > >> > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > > >> > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > > >> > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > > >> > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > > >> > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > > >> > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > > >> > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > > > >> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > > > >> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > > > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection > > > denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > > who do you think is at the end of this shaft if it isn't the distal nude and the proximal guano but you and I were about to ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 23:30:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Renga2? In-Reply-To: On Tue, 8 Aug 1995, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > On Sun, 6 Aug 1995, Jorge Guitart wrote: > > > On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Charles Alexander wrote: > > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > > The caravan of windows to what they flee > > > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > > Power to the spider, virtuous in act if not intent > > > Sight over sound for "justice," O cubes of Cuba! Where > > > would calmness be without the stain of possession and > > > Belief. A mirage effect, art, made to waver in > > > a modicum of chocolate milk. Not too late for > > > the phalarope, anodyne, cynesure, palindrome or rapturous whatnots > > > doused in chemicals resembling chemlab outputs straining to be > > > loons in a lake one can see through, diving between sunrises > > > with a modicum of surprise, as in "Mr. Chimaera, please report to the > > barnacle ormorderately or isn't it proper to sandwich our time with the ice people and decide later about the opheliacs ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 23:37:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Renga 1 In-Reply-To: On Tue, 8 Aug 1995, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > On Sun, 6 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > > > >> >> > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > >> >> > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > >> >> > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > >> >> > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > >> >> > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > >> >> > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > > >> >> > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > >> >> > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > >> >> > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > >> >> > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > >> >> > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > >> >> > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > >> >> > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > > >> >> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > > >> >> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > > >> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection > > >> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > > pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > > mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango- izing of experience but landscape generosity and wetware chastity > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 23:43:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: eR 1 In-Reply-To: On Tue, 8 Aug 1995, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > On Sun, 6 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > > > >On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > > > > > >> >On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Thomas Bell wrote: > > >> > > > >> >> On Aug 3 Hank Lazer wrote: > > >> >> > > >> >> On Aug 3 Marissa Januzzi wrote: > > >> >> > > >> >> > On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Jorge Guitart wrote: > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > >adding to Ron Silliman's addition -- > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > >> >> > > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > >> >> > > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > >> >> > > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > >> >> > > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > >> >> > > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > > >> >> > > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > >> >> > > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > >> >> > > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > >> >> > > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > >> >> > > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > >> >> > > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > >> >> > > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > > >> >> > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > > >> >> ><< lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the > > >> >> morning > > >> >> from the books out of the dreams away from the lonesome > > >> >> wail of the glob that cradles in its claws The Anthology > > >> >> of retrospective prescience sanded down to mean the elbows > > cleanly > > >> fit to be you or the phantasm that space foreclosed when the > > first sentence spilled from heaven wheat of some kind blistered and untuned > > by the harpie of space here for add in whatever you choose or not but don't single out the dog waiting to happen and the free mildew ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 22:56:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: rengafication First the list, then the world VIRUSALERT. Ryan Knighton wrote >Oh mY, everything is now subject to rengafication! >Identity crises abound. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 22:39:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: ringing renga On Aug 8 Burt Kimmelman wrote .... AGHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! EVEN AS i WRITE MORE RENGAS ARE PORING IN! (help) Dateline. Washington EFF 9/1/95 1500EST Aftrer courageous efforts by allnight workers in Mexico City a cure to the renbga virus was found, saving millions of users worldwide . The source was discovered and it can be removed! Contact LTrotsky@mexico.com for a visusrenag remover - 77 Mexican dollars ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 01:22:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Colleen Lookingbill Subject: Re: Canessa is in S.F. Sorry to the list - Canessa Park is in San Francisco. The address is 708 Montgomery Street, and the phone # for more info is 415-553-7798. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 23:19:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: more crazies (fwd) > speaking of gender, more to be scared by... Gab. etc. oy. m ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 23:03:23 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Renga 1 On Tue, 8 Aug 1995, Charles Alexander wrote: On Tue, 8 Aug 1995 23:26:11 -0400, Jorge Guitart wrote: >On Tue, 8 Aug 1995, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > >> On Sun, 6 Aug 1995, Jorge Guitart wrote: >> >> > On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: >> > >> > > >> > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> > > >> > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> > > >> > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> > > >> > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> > > >> > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> > > >> > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee >> > > >> > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> > > >> > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> > > >> > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> > > >> > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> > > >> > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> > > >> > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >> > > >> > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >> > > >> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >> > > >> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >> > > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection >> > > denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing >> > who do you think is at the end of this shaft if it isn't > the distal nude and the proximal guano but you and I were about to > tango in a thunderstorm, lightning be damned, forget my skin, ask > charles alexander [===========^^============] [ <> ] chax press [ maybe a <> pages ] [ time <> letters ] phone & fax: 612-721-6063 [ upon <> frames ] [ once <> motion ] e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu [ <> ] [===========vv============] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 23:49:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Renga3? In-Reply-To: <950808150112_50629982@aol.com> On Tue, 8 Aug 1995, Rod Smith wrote: > On Sun, 6 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > On Aug 8 G Welford wrote: > > > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > >would calmness be without the stain of possession and > > >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > >The caravan of windows to what they flee > > >These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > >Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > >but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > >Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > >& opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > >bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > >kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > > >gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > > >flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > > >halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection > > >prickling with tenors, saving arrogance for free choice, long division > > >with its equally long aftertaste, or did its overtone > > collapse a wild sugar ago the fleet of cabernet oblivions for > > outrage. Marketing posture allowed gravel a way home > My dream a drink w/ Douglas Coupland. We discuss "The Code of the Net" and he is transparent like Victor the Vector getting home ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 17:40:57 BST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "I.LIGHTMAN" Subject: Baudelaire Here, as promised, are some versions of the same Baudelaire poem from the book, _Spleen_, by Nicholas Moore, reprinted, Menard Press, 1990, available from Peter Riley Books, 27 Sturton Street, Cambridge CB1 1QQ, United Kingdom; SPLEEN Je suis comme le roi d'un pays pluvieux, Riche, mais impuissant, jeune et pourtant tres-vieux, Qui, de ses precepteurs meprisant les courbettes, S'ennuie avec ses chiens comme avec d'autres betes. Rien ne peut l'egayer, ni gibier, ni faucon, Ni son peuple mourant en face du balcon. Du bouffon favori la grotesque ballade Ne distrait plus le front de ce cruel malade; Son lit fleurdelise se transforme en tombeau, Et les dames d'atour, pour qui tout prince est beau, Ne savent plus trouver d'impudique toilette Pour tirer un souris de ce jeune squelette. Le savant qui lui fait de l'or n'a jamais pu De son etre extirper l'element corrumpu, Et dans ces bains de sang qui des Romains nous viennent, Et donc sur leurs vieux jours les puissants se souviennent, Il n'a su rechauffer ce cadavre hebete Ou coule lieu de sang l'eau verte du Lethe. LE ROY DELYCIEUX DE L'ICI I am like the T.S. Eliot of new wastelands; Fertile, but powerless; young, but with tied hands; Despising pettiness in those who teach me. Bored with this rat race, poodle-love can't reach me, Pussies don't make me feel good, nor dumb birds; Nor dying poets begging *me* for words. Bob Dylan's witty, but grotesque new songs Can't tear me from the sick thought of *my* wrongs.... Nicholas Moore A BAD DREAM RECURRING As the Ruler of a storm-flooded country, I Am rich, but powerless, young, but terribly Ancient, and all my ministers' sycophancy Doesn't make up for my boredom with the beastly... ...Nor would pogroms - however Stalinesque - Raise any new life that's not quite grotesque Or warm the cockles of a skeletal Heart - pumping water green as fear, and lethal. "Ion Lomas-Roche" DREAMSCAPE I stand, a too-old king In a too rainy country, curbed By distrust of too-plausible advisers. Dogs, Other faceless animals, Small birds, hawks - but I'm bored; A whole race fails beneath my balcony. The Beatles, dressed like grubs, Sing mournfully "Hey, Jude", But I - I cannot laugh. I suffer from the same malaise myself. My bed is a mound of flowers, Lily, iris; The flower girls offer me charms And suddenly strip - Beautiful, clean young bodies. But this mound is a tomb For this dried-up young mummy. The gesturing girls can't raise a smile From the dead. "Nichos Omolares" RAT-KING ....Not all the lynchings of the Ku Klux Klan Can make me sure I am the man I am. I seem a marionette strung up on death, While straggling Lethe greenly twists beneath. "H.R. Fixon-Boumphrey" PEPE-LE-MOKO AU MONTRACHET-LE-JARDIN Beau Roi of Serpentines in thunderous mish-mash! Golden glissadings, O empty effendi of air, The tutors' fulgurations, fine flickerings of frenzy, leave You like a Dodo in the abattoirs.... "P.L. Moko-Destaches" etc etc etc etc etc etc Sorry I've only time to excerpt from these translations, mostly from the start or end.... Here is my own translation of Baudelaire's Madrigal Triste: THE ORCHESTRATION OF UNHAPPINESS - after Baudelaire You're disciplined. So? Get lusty, get lost. Desperation is flow, banked soil sails where the rivers go. Get acceleration. Lord! When emotion rejoices, dissolving the edifice above it, and your heart is where the horror of choice is, when you're alive in the present, to hear the shut-out voices of yesterday threaten full-throttle - God, how I love it! I *love* it, when your eyes brim and babble with weeping; when, spurning my prim reflex to soothe you, you let yourself swim in the depth of it, and go out of my keeping. I drink, o deep, delicious, voluptuous one, from this spring at the brink of your body. I drink as the knot is undone. IRA LIGHTMAN Anyone interested in the idea of Baudelaire's *style* get into Yeats? I've just been reading Sarah Law's Baudelaire-style poem, Savage Nights, in the Cambridge magazine, _Involution ii_, and it reminded me of Yeats. Anyway, hope this offers some starting points for Baudelaire talk... Ira ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 09:47:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lindz Williamson Subject: A cure will be here soon my friends In-Reply-To: <199508090539.WAA06805@well.com> > Dateline. Washington EFF 9/1/95 1500EST > > Aftrer courageous efforts by allnight workers in Mexico City > a cure to the renbga virus was found, saving millions of users > worldwide . The source was discovered and it can be removed! > Contact LTrotsky@mexico.com for a visusrenag remover - 77 Mexican dollars > Oh thank God, I'm heading off to Mexico after Christmas. I should be able to get it in duty free by using the Canadian Council Against Renga as a cover and claiming the cure as a cultural aid. If anyone wants I'll smuggle some of this miracle cure into Canada amd then sell it in US markets. I should make a killing off the exchange rates. I'm taking orders starting immediately. Finally a way to easy our suffering, if only I could leave now. Lindz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 09:51:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: Renga3? >[B[B> >> > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> > >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> > >would calmness be without the stain of possession and >> > >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> > >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> > >The caravan of windows to what they flee >> > >These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> > >Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> > >but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> > >Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> > >& opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> > >bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >> > >kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >> > >gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >> > >flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >> > >halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection >> > >prickling with tenors, saving arrogance for free choice, long division >> > >with its equally long aftertaste, or did its overtone >> > collapse a wild sugar ago the fleet of cabernet oblivions for >> > outrage. Marketing posture allowed gravel a way home >> My dream a drink w/ Douglas Coupland. We discuss >> "The Code of the Net" >>Snared in proselike flackjacket fashionwear, pockets of > reverberating syllables slammed into prose banks wheezing at the cattle calls that strangle ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 09:53:43 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: ringing renga On Aug 9 Thomas Bell wrote >Aftrer courageous efforts by allnight workers in Mexico City >a cure to the renbga virus was found, saving millions of users >worldwide . The source was discovered and it can be removed! >Contact LTrotsky@mexico.com for a visusrenag remover - 77 Mexican dollars I don't want to sound like the pc-police here, but does this sound a bit racist to anyone else? Dodie Bellamy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 09:52:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: Renga 1 >On Tue, 8 Aug 1995, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > >> On Sun, 6 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: >> >> > >> >> > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> > >> >> > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> > >> >> > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> > >> >> > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> > >> >> > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> > >> >> > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee >> > >> >> > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> > >> >> > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> > >> >> > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> > >> >> > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> > >> >> > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> > >> >> > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >> > >> >> > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >> > >> >> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >> > >> >> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >> > >> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection >> > >> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing >> > pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several >> > mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango- > izing of experience but landscape generosity and wetware chastity that meshes the way cloth blooms in our wind sock ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 09:54:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: eR 1 >On Tue, 8 Aug 1995, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > >> On Sun, 6 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: >> >> > >On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: >> > > >> > >> >On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Thomas Bell wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> >> On Aug 3 Hank Lazer wrote: >> > >> >> >> > >> >> On Aug 3 Marissa Januzzi wrote: >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Jorge Guitart wrote: >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > > On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > > >adding to Ron Silliman's addition -- >> > >> >> > > > > >> > >> >> > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> > >> >> > > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> > >> >> > > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> > >> >> > > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> > >> >> > > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> > >> >> > > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee >> > >> >> > > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> > >> >> > > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> > >> >> > > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> > >> >> > > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> > >> >> > > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> > >> >> > > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >> > >> >> > > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >> > >> >> > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >> > >> >> ><< lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the >> > >> >> morning >> > >> >> from the books out of the dreams away from the lonesome >> > >> >> wail of the glob that cradles in its claws The Anthology >> > >> >> of retrospective prescience sanded down to mean the elbows >> > cleanly >> > >> fit to be you or the phantasm that space foreclosed when the >> > first sentence spilled from heaven wheat of some kind blistered and untuned >> > by the harpie of space here for add in whatever you choose or not > but don't single out the dog waiting to happen and the free mildew lights behind the cabbage, Pringles, and southerly winds exchanged for francs ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 13:04:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: JG I've just heard that Jerry Garcia died this morning. Thought some folks out there might like to know. --Rod ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 12:54:13 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: Re: Renga3? II > [B[B> > > > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > > >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > > >would calmness be without the stain of possession and > > > >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > > >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > > >The caravan of windows to what they flee > > > >These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > > >Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > > >but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > > >Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > > >& opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > > >bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > > >kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > > > >gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > > > >flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > > > >halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection > > > >prickling with tenors, saving arrogance for free choice, long division > > > >with its equally long aftertaste, or did its overtone > > > collapse a wild sugar ago the fleet of cabernet oblivions for > > > outrage. Marketing posture allowed gravel a way home > > My dream a drink w/ Douglas Coupland. We discuss > > "The Code of the Net" > >Emerging just as prose dialogue declines within the ascendant moment of radical political conserva- tivisms: ironic poetic thesis, useful for ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 14:55:38 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Alan Golding Subject: Mitchellmania, Harpermania Associate Professor of English, U. of Louisville Phone: (502)-852-5918; e-mail: acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu Maria: Kevin Mitchell's an overweight, overpaid, injury-prone, underachieving, peripatetic outfielder with the Reds, the Giants, a Japanese team, and God knows who else before or since. Sorta like Ron. Ryan: Some of Michael Harper's books that I have here are History is Your Own Heartbeat (1971), Nightmare Begins Responsibility (1975), Images of Kin (1977), Healing Song for the Inner Ear (1985). I don't know what he's done since the mid-eighties. Like many other writers, he has a number of Coltrane poems, and perhaps his best-known (or most anthologized) poem is "Dear John, Dear Coltrane. " I taught this at the U of Mississippi years back and played "A Love Supreme," off which the poem riffs, but the effort met with a resounding "Huh?" (Actually, Trane met with the resounding "Huh?" and Harper merely with a lower-case "huh.") Would like to know what you thought of his reading, since I've never heard him. We've thought of him at various times as a possible reader at the Twentieth-Century Lit. Conference here. I'm trying to think of a crack about derengalation to end this with, but can't. Oh well. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 15:02:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Renga 1 In-Reply-To: <92229.mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu> On Tue, 8 Aug 1995, Charles Alexander wrote: > On Tue, 8 Aug 1995, Charles Alexander wrote: > > On Tue, 8 Aug 1995 23:26:11 -0400, > Jorge Guitart wrote: > > >On Tue, 8 Aug 1995, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > > > >> On Sun, 6 Aug 1995, Jorge Guitart wrote: > >> > >> > On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> > > >> > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> > > >> > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> > > >> > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> > > >> > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> > > >> > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > >> > > >> > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >> > > >> > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >> > > >> > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >> > > >> > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >> > > >> > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >> > > >> > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >> > > >> > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >> > > >> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >> > > >> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > >> > > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection > >> > > denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > >> > who do you think is at the end of this shaft if it isn't > > the distal nude and the proximal guano but you and I were about to > > tango in a thunderstorm, lightning be damned, forget my skin, ask not the neutered angel pushing romantic coating, but ask ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 15:07:06 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Alan Golding Subject: Twentieth-Century Literature Conference Associate Professor of English, U. of Louisville Phone: (502)-852-5918; e-mail: acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu Dear List: Since I've mentioned the Conference in passing in another post today, might as well do my annual schtick. So: The call for papers and for poetry and fiction submissions is now out for the U. of Louisville's annual Twentieth-Century Literature Conference, to be held Feb. 22-24, 1996. Deadline for submissions is an Oct. 2 postmark. Keynote speakers are not yet set, but I'll post that information when they are. For further info., including a hard copy of the conference flier with lots more detail, e-mail the Conference director, Harriette Seiler, at hmseil01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu. A lot of people on the Poetics list came last year, which meant that *I* had a good time, and I think they did too. PS: Harriette Seiler's away for a week or two, so don't be concerned if you don't get a response right away. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 15:56:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Renga3? II In-Reply-To: <9508091854.AA48022@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca> On Wed, 9 Aug 1995, Louis Cabri wrote: > > >Emerging just as prose dialogue declines within the > ascendant moment of radical political conserva- > tivisms: ironic poetic thesis, useful for Thinking about Jerry Garcia, thinking about little murders, thinking about the good die young, thinking about Janis Joplin, thinking about nothing left to lose, thinking about Abbie Hoffman, thinking about insurrection, thinking about flowers, thinking about flowers, thinking about insurrection ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 13:20:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: Dear Alan, Dear Harper In-Reply-To: from "Alan Golding" at Aug 9, 95 02:55:38 pm Alan, Thanks for the titles. I heard harper read "Nightmare Begins Responsibility" and I think three or four more poems in the "Language of Life" series currently running on PBS this side of the medicine line. I think slick is the best word. He was reading with a jazz trio, very beat, but reminded me in his language and style of Amiri Baraka, AM/TRAK and thereabouts. What amazed me is his sense of performance vs. reading, demonstrated best by his interpretations of some inner-city poets' works. After him came Adrienne Rich and it was night and day, for me. Rhythm seems to be an extension of content and in some cases content itself. Oh yeah, renga. Ryan Knighton Unprofessor of Literature Frozen Frazer University ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 16:22:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: JG others and us In-Reply-To: Only the Good Die Young You know where this is going but I don't. Anyone who went through the 60s, rubbed themselves raw in the middle to late 60s and early 70s, against the right in America that's now breathing down our necks with the fury of missed and regulated life - anyone who went through them caught in the war of the peace - has been traumatized, amputated, has learned to bury well, never say "far out" again because it's all reigned in, has learned to walk the walk, talk the talk - Has learned to bury early on Janis and Jimmy and John and John and Al and Robert and Abbie and Martin and Marvin and those who burned bright for a second, just when we were beginning to learn to fuck them, open our bodies, insurrections of the flesh - How did Jerry survive so long, get away with it, these little murders splitting out bodies open - we weren't taught that life was one long series of deaths, only that death was there on the horizon, present yes, but not these little murders - We're fucking survivors, the Net's a commune, the last Free Press, we're on the edge, waiting for insurrection, of the other, of ourselves, splin- tered on the bones of a country we barely recognize - Cause otherwise we're all sleep for the slaughter - little murders on down the line - take us - 'She wander'd in the lad of clouds thro' valleys dark, list'ning Dolours & lamentations; waiting oft beside a dewy grave She stood in silence, list'ning to the voices of the ground, Till to her own grave plot she came, & there she sat down, And heard this voice of sorrow breathed from the hollow pit. '"Why cannot the Ear be closed to its own destruction? "Or the glist'ning Eye to the poison of a smile? "Why are Eyelids stor'd with arrows ready drawn, "Where a thousand fighting men in ambush lie? "Or an Eye of gifts & graces show'ring fruits & coined gold? "Why a Tongue impress'd with honey from every wind? "Why an Ear, a whirlpool fierce to draw creations in? "Why a Nostril wide inhaling terror, trembling, & affright? "Why a tender curb upon the youthful burning boy? "Why a little curtain of flesh on the bed of our desire?"' (Blake, The Book of Thel) Alan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 15:49:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: JG In message <950809130419_51266301@aol.com> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > I've just heard that Jerry Garcia died this morning. Thought some folks out > there might like to know. > --Rod yes, i'm stunned and, strange to say, can't find any twin cities radio stations playing all day Dead. my albums were stolen years ago.--md ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 15:59:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Dear Alan, Dear Harper In message <199508092020.NAA13739@fraser.sfu.ca> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Alan, > > Thanks for the titles. I heard harper read "Nightmare Begins > Responsibility" and I think three or four more poems in the > "Language of Life" series currently running on PBS this side of > the medicine line. I think slick is the best word. He > was reading with a jazz trio, very beat, but reminded me in > his language and style of Amiri Baraka, AM/TRAK and thereabouts. > What amazed me is his sense of performance vs. reading, demonstrated > best by his interpretations of some inner-city poets' works. After him > came Adrienne Rich and it was night and day, for me. Rhythm seems > to be an extension of content and in some cases content itself. > > Oh yeah, renga. > > Ryan Knighton > Unprofessor of Literature > Frozen Frazer University dear alan, dear ryan, i heard harper read a few years ago and his renditions of etheridge knight's poetry were much more powerful than his readings of his own material. he read some really boring recent stuff of his, stuff like, for richard wilbur on his xxth birthday, "i gave you a bottle of scotch," etc. Only on request did he read the older, far more powerful "Dear John" and the one for Bessie Smith? "this is our last affair"(?) gorgeous. but what he's doing now...uninspired, as far as i could tell. i don't know if he was doing that on purpose because of the incredible conservatism of my department, who hosted the reading (helP! get me out of here!) or if that's how it is these days in general. also he recently edited a book of AF-Am poetry called Every Shut Eye Ain't Asleep, in which he omitted Bob Kaufman and others with an eye toward "quality." oh well. he has been very good to some younger writers, including novelist Gayl Jones, who's a knockout. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 16:03:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: coupla job postings!!!! please, everyone, spread the word so we can have some hip applicants for this position --typical of my institution to allow two weeks for a search! apply, all ye brit poetry folks and post colonialists, and/or forward to appropriate lists as you see fit!--md Two Full-Time Temporary Teaching Positions 1995-96 Department of English University of Minnesota The Department of English at the University of Minnesota has openings for two positions for 1995-96. Both positions are one year (September 16, 1995 through June 15, 1996), 100 percent time, non-tenured, temporary appointments. Minimum qualifications for these positions are a Ph.D. in English or related field, some teaching experience, and expertise in the fields as specified below. Preferred candidates will also have demonstrated excellence in teaching and research and have a record of publication. The teaching load will be six courses (two each quarter) which will include undergraduate, upper-division undergraduate, and graduate level courses. Depending on credentials, appointments will be made at the Lecturer, Visiting Assistant Professor or Visiting Associate Professor level. Salary is $35,000 and non-negotiable for both positions. Position 1: Twentieth-Century British Literature Candidates must have specific expertise in Twentieth-century British poetry and a broad familiarity with Twentieth-century British literature generally. Position 2: Specialist in Postcolonial literatures in English and Postcolonial Theory. Candidates must have expertise in a specific area of postcolonial literature in English as well as broad familiarity with postcolonial literatures and theory generally. Applicants should send letter of application, curriculum vitae, and three letters of reference to: Professor Marty Roth Department of English University of Minnesota 207 Lind Hall 207 Church Street SE Minneapolis, MN 55455-0134. Applications must be postmarked by August 23, 1995. *************** The University of Minnesota is committed to the policy that all persons shall have equal access to its programs, facilities, and employment without regard to race, color, creed, religion, national origin, sex, age, marital status, disability, public assistance status, veteran status, or sexual orientation. ********************* Laureen Larson Principal Secretary Department of English 207 Lind 207 Church Street SE Minneapolis MN 55455 612-625-6837 612-624-8228 FAX ********************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 16:06:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Twentieth-Century Literature Conference alan g writes: > > Dear List: > > Since I've mentioned the Conference in passing in another post today, might > as > well do my annual schtick. So: > > > A lot of people on the Poetics list came last year, which meant that *I* had > a good time, and I think they did too. > yes indeed, i can attest to that. it was my first time at the conference, and found people gracious, kind, friendly and fun to hang out with. it has been one of my most "meaningful" conferences.--md ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 16:10:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Renga3? II In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > On Wed, 9 Aug 1995, Louis Cabri wrote: > > > > >Emerging just as prose dialogue declines within the > > ascendant moment of radical political conserva- > > tivisms: ironic poetic thesis, useful for > Thinking about Jerry Garcia, thinking about little murders, > thinking about the good die young, thinking about Janis Joplin, > thinking about nothing left to lose, thinking about Abbie Hoffman, > thinking about insurrection, thinking about flowers, > thinking about flowers, thinking about insurrection and Jimi the Gem lancing his rare guitar-artiste heart for us, thinking about Mumia still to come, and George jackson who's smile was so loving it stopped a bullet before his time ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 17:49:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Renga3? In-Reply-To: <199508091651.JAA24278@bob.indirect.com> On Wed, 9 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >[B[B> > >> > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> > >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> > >would calmness be without the stain of possession and > >> > >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> > >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> > >The caravan of windows to what they flee > >> > >These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >> > >Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >> > >but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >> > >Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >> > >& opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >> > >bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >> > >kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >> > >gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >> > >flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > >> > >halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection > >> > >prickling with tenors, saving arrogance for free choice, long division > >> > >with its equally long aftertaste, or did its overtone > >> > collapse a wild sugar ago the fleet of cabernet oblivions for > >> > outrage. Marketing posture allowed gravel a way home > >> My dream a drink w/ Douglas Coupland. We discuss > >> "The Code of the Net". Snared in proselike flackjacket fashionwear, pockets of reverberating syllables slammed into prose banks wheezing at the cattle calls that strangle the big boys who killed the stony bird who cried "see you at the next aurora of autumn!" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 18:00:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: ringing renga In-Reply-To: it is racist in that it presumes that mexicans lack imagination since the only thing that can stop renga is precisely the lack of imagination. i am partly mexican and, as the famous corrido says, "que siga la renga!" Dodie Bellamy wrote On Wed, 9 Aug 1995, Kevin Killian wrote: > On Aug 9 Thomas Bell wrote > > >Aftrer courageous efforts by allnight workers in Mexico City > >a cure to the renbga virus was found, saving millions of users > >worldwide . The source was discovered and it can be removed! > >Contact LTrotsky@mexico.com for a visusrenag remover - 77 Mexican dollars > > I don't want to sound like the pc-police here, but does this sound a bit > racist to anyone else? > > Dodie Bellamy > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 15:21:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: Renga 1 >On Tue, 8 Aug 1995, Charles Alexander wrote: > >On Tue, 8 Aug 1995 23:26:11 -0400, >Jorge Guitart wrote: > >>On Tue, 8 Aug 1995, Gabrielle Welford wrote: >> >>> On Sun, 6 Aug 1995, Jorge Guitart wrote: >>> >>> > On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: >>> > >>> > > >> > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >>> > > >> > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >>> > > >> > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >>> > > >> > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >>> > > >> > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >>> > > >> > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee >>> > > >> > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >>> > > >> > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >>> > > >> > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >>> > > >> > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >>> > > >> > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >>> > > >> > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >>> > > >> > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >>> > > >> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >>> > > >> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >>> > > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection >>> > > denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing >>> > who do you think is at the end of this shaft if it isn't >> the distal nude and the proximal guano but you and I were about to >> tango in a thunderstorm, lightning be damned, forget my skin, ask pockmarks questions denuded of interrogation (points west ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 15:23:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: Renga 1 >On Tue, 8 Aug 1995, Charles Alexander wrote: > >> On Tue, 8 Aug 1995, Charles Alexander wrote: >> >> On Tue, 8 Aug 1995 23:26:11 -0400, >> Jorge Guitart wrote: >> >> >On Tue, 8 Aug 1995, Gabrielle Welford wrote: >> > >> >> On Sun, 6 Aug 1995, Jorge Guitart wrote: >> >> >> >> > On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: >> >> > >> >> > > >> > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> >> > > >> > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> >> > > >> > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> >> > > >> > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> >> > > >> > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> >> > > >> > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee >> >> > > >> > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> >> > > >> > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> >> > > >> > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> >> > > >> > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> >> > > >> > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> >> > > >> > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >> >> > > >> > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >> >> > > >> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >> >> > > >> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >> >> > > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspectio >n >> >> > > denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing >> >> > who do you think is at the end of this shaft if it isn't >> > the distal nude and the proximal guano but you and I were about to >> > tango in a thunderstorm, lightning be damned, forget my skin, ask > not the neutered angel pushing romantic coating, but ask confidence to tame itself, us, the treefrogs to the tune of watered scones ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 18:22:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: eR 1 In-Reply-To: <199508091654.JAA24342@bob.indirect.com> On Wed, 9 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >On Tue, 8 Aug 1995, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > > > >> On Sun, 6 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >> > >> > >On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >> > > > >> > >> >On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Thomas Bell wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > >> >> On Aug 3 Hank Lazer wrote: > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> On Aug 3 Marissa Januzzi wrote: > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Jorge Guitart wrote: > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >> > >> >> > > > >> > >> >> > > > >adding to Ron Silliman's addition -- > >> > >> >> > > > > > >> > >> >> > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> > >> >> > > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> > >> >> > > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> > >> >> > > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> > >> >> > > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> > >> >> > > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > >> > >> >> > > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >> > >> >> > > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >> > >> >> > > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >> > >> >> > > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >> > >> >> > > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >> > >> >> > > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >> > >> >> > > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >> > >> >> > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >> > >> >> ><< lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the > >> > >> >> morning > >> > >> >> from the books out of the dreams away from the lonesome > >> > >> >> wail of the glob that cradles in its claws The Anthology > >> > >> >> of retrospective prescience sanded down to mean the elbows > >> > cleanly > >> > >> fit to be you or the phantasm that space foreclosed when the > >> > first sentence spilled from heaven wheat of some kind blistered and untuned > >> > by the harpie of space here for add in whatever you choose or not > > but don't single out the dog waiting to happen and the free mildew > lights behind the cabbage, Pringles, and southerly winds exchanged for francs by the `Defense de glouglouter' sign. Me, I'm just in bracket mode and ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 15:26:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: Renga3? >On Tue, 8 Aug 1995, Rod Smith wrote: > >> On Sun, 6 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: >> On Aug 8 G Welford wrote: >> >> > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> > >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> > >would calmness be without the stain of possession and >> > >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> > >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> > >The caravan of windows to what they flee >> > >These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> > >Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> > >but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> > >Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> > >& opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> > >bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >> > >kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >> > >gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >> > >flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >> > >halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection >> > >prickling with tenors, saving arrogance for free choice, long division >> > >with its equally long aftertaste, or did its overtone >> > collapse a wild sugar ago the fleet of cabernet oblivions for >> > outrage. Marketing posture allowed gravel a way home >> My dream a drink w/ Douglas Coupland. We discuss "The Code of the Net" > and he is transparent like Victor the Vector getting home brew safely to the lips pornographied like pressure in the tongue ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 18:28:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: jesus christ was born today In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing who do you think is at the end of this shaft if it isn't the distal nude and the proximal guano but you and I were about to tango in a thunderstorm, lightning be damned, forget my skin, ask me and I'll walk quietly up fifth to the mid manhattan branch ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 18:36:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: fear of god In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango when the attorney general came, selah ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 18:37:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: Re: Renga 1 > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of the french language ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 12:45:50 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Ann Arbor City Council Passes Resolution on Mumia! (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 05:18:16 -1000 From: Paul Steven Lefrak To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Ann Arbor City Council Passes Resolution on Mumia! For immediate release: ANN ARBOR CITY COUNCIL PASSES RESOLUTION CALLING FOR NEW TRIAL FOR MUMIA ABU-JAMAL Aug.7--The City Council of Ann Arbor, MI tonight passed a resolution calling for a new trial for Pennsylvania political prisoner Mumia Abu-Jamal and that his death sentence be set aside. Ann Arbor now joins Detroit, Madison, and Cambridge, MA as the fourth American city council to pass such a resolution. The resolution was passed by an 8-1 majority and the effort to win the resolution was initiated by members of the Ann Arbor-based Emergency Committee Against the Racist Execution (Emergency CARE: 313-913-9538 / plefr@umich.edu). It is significant to note that the resolution was passed despite the fact that earlier in the day Mumia Abu-Jamal had been granted a stay of execution. There was some discussion on the Council about whether the resolution was still necessary given the stay. Emergency CARE members addressed the Council and pointed out that the death sentence still loomed over Mumia's head, that he was still in Judge Sabo's court, and that he had not been granted a new trial. They pointed out that it was getting similar resolutions passed in other cities--a direct result of a mass worldwide movement--that helped create the political climate in which today's court victory could even be won. Earlier, Emergency CARE members joined forces with approximately forty members of the Coalition for Community Unity (CCU) who were picketing prior to the meeting. CCU initiated its picket in response to the near-unanimous vote of City Council last week in which the Council capitulated to police pressure and backed down from demanding an immediate return of the blood and DNA samples obtained from 160 area Black men during the highly racist police "investigation" of the now-solved serial rape case. No action was taken on that issue at the Monday night City Council meeting. Emergency CARE members are currently organizing for the August 12 national protest in Philadelphia demanding a new trial for Mumia Abu-Jamal, a stop to the execution, an end to the racist death penalty, and a halt to the agenda of the right-wing. The victory won today only hardened members' determination to continue the fight. We will not be placated! FREE MUMIA ABU-JAMAL AND ALL OTHER LIBERATION FIGHTERS! ABOLISH THE RACIST DEATH PENALTY! Paul Lefrak 313-913-9538 plefr@umich.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 11:33:55 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: JG others and us to Alam Sondheim (& Survivors - of the 60s/70s all) is it still cool to say Right On? Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 00:35:30 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: desire / and the 39 steps ornamental poppy petals voiced out of a pitted steel catering bowl from a folly functive balcony plaster themselves around the drying lips of gaping mouths - amazed. these kids like tape hiss most. fadding into one last peal of moss. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 18:53:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anmarie Trimble Subject: Re: Dear Alan, Dear Harper >Alan, > >Thanks for the titles. I heard harper read "Nightmare Begins >Responsibility" and I think three or four more poems in the >"Language of Life" series currently running on PBS this side of >the medicine line. I think slick is the best word. He >was reading with a jazz trio, very beat, but reminded me in >his language and style of Amiri Baraka, AM/TRAK and thereabouts. >What amazed me is his sense of performance vs. reading, demonstrated >best by his interpretations of some inner-city poets' works. After him >came Adrienne Rich and it was night and day, for me. Rhythm seems >to be an extension of content and in some cases content itself. > >Oh yeah, renga. > >Ryan Knighton >Unprofessor of Literature >Frozen Frazer University Dear everybody - I didn't catch the name of the poet included in the second part of "the language of life." She read "night vision." Of course, I could do a search by title, but I'd rather display my ignorance before oodles of complete strangers. I'd say Cruz was the heat of the day, Harper the beat of the night, and Rich wore the deceptive calm of the indoors. -Anmarie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 13:51:57 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland Subject: Re: ringing renga Comments: To: MLLJORGE@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU on Wed, 9 August Jorge Guitart wrote Dodie Bellamy wrote Thomas Bell wrote Aftrer courageous efforts by allnight workers in Mexico City a cure I don't want to sound like the P-C police here but it is racist in that it presumes that mexicans lack imagination in the book were dreams and in the dreams were books and you won't get rid of us that easily ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 23:24:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Blair Seagram Subject: Chris Stroffolino If this is yours, please notify sender of correct address. If this is not yours, please use 'reply' to notify me. ************************************************************************ * W A R N I N G * * * * This item has been FORWARDED to you from the * * system DEAD-LETTER file/folder by the postmaster * * DO NOT use the 'reply' function ( reply will go to postmaster ) * * Instead, please do a 'send' to the originator of the item. * * thanks - postmaster * ************************************************************************ From: IN%"postmaster@ALBNYVMS.BITNET" "PMDF Mail Server" 9-AUG-1995 Your message could not be delivered to: --> Error description: Error-For: LSO796@ALBNYVMS.BITNET Error-Code: 3 Error-Text: unknown or illegal user: LSO796@ALBNYVMS.BITNET Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 00:23:09 -0800 To: LSO796%ALBNYVMS.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU From: blairsea@panix.com (Blair Seagram) Subject: Backchannel bouncing Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 14:46:59 -0400 From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Studio space Blair--I tried to contact you backchannnel about some longshot possibilities--friends in Brooklyn, etc--but it bounced back to me....backchannel me, Chris Dear Chris: I apologize for such a tardy response. I came acrosss your message tonight while looking on past posts for meanings of renga (something I am still unclear on). I must have missed your post first time around. Not paying enough attention I guess. I'm not sure what happened via backchannel but try again please, if only to test the address blairsea@panix.com. If you know of any studios, I'd be interested to hear about them. Thanks for your trouble. Best wishes. Blair By the way where are you located geographically? Dear Chris: That was then and this is now. Apparently I got bounced last night, not only from your address, but from the poetics list. So here we go on a second round. By the way, your address above (LSO796%ALBNYVMS.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU) is not the one I used, not as far as I know. I believe I copied your address verbatim (LS0796@ALBNYVMS.BITNET). In any event, I am now more interested in seeing if this message gets through, than I am in finding out about studio spaces. I wonder if I was bounced from the poetics list because I only used a subject heading and left the body empty? Please contact me Chris, if necessary use the poetics list and make the subject my name. That way, I have a better chance of catching your post, since I get my poetics mail bundled. Best wishes Blair ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 23:28:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: jesus christ was born today In-Reply-To: <950809182806_51475306@aol.com> On Wed, 9 Aug 1995, Jordan Davis. wrote: > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The caravan of windows to what they flee > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection > denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > who do you think is at the end of this shaft if it isn't > the distal nude and the proximal guano but you and I were about to > tango in a thunderstorm, lightning be damned, forget my skin, ask > me and I'll walk quietly up fifth to the mid manhattan branch and check my balance for the abyss is open late ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 23:31:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: fear of god In-Reply-To: <950809183412_51476756@aol.com> On Wed, 9 Aug 1995, Jordan Davis. wrote: > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The caravan of windows to what they flee > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection > denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, kook!" > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 22:57:23 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: Re: eR 1 Comments: To: Jorge Guitart On 8 Aug 95 at 23:43, Jorge Guitart wrote: > > > >> >> > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > > >> >> > > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > > >> >> > > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > > >> >> > > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > > >> >> > > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > > >> >> > > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > > > >> >> > > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > > >> >> > > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > > >> >> > > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > > >> >> > > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > > >> >> > > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > > >> >> > > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > > >> >> > > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > > > >> >> > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > > > >> >> ><< lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the > > > >> >> morning > > > >> >> from the books out of the dreams away from the lonesome > > > >> >> wail of the glob that cradles in its claws The Anthology > > > >> >> of retrospective prescience sanded down to mean the elbows > > > cleanly > > > >> fit to be you or the phantasm that space foreclosed when the > > > first sentence spilled from heaven wheat of some kind blistered and untuned > > > by the harpie of space here for add in whatever you choose or not > but don't single out the dog waiting to happen and the free mildew leases, the hare that bit him, the cat in the box (perhaps) ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/ Online Representative, Austin International Poetry Festival \| / Joe Zitt's Home Page\ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 22:57:34 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: Re: ringing renga Comments: To: Kevin Killian On 9 Aug 95 at 9:53, Kevin Killian wrote: > On Aug 9 Thomas Bell wrote > > >Aftrer courageous efforts by allnight workers in Mexico City > >a cure to the renbga virus was found, saving millions of users > >worldwide . The source was discovered and it can be removed! > >Contact LTrotsky@mexico.com for a visusrenag remover - 77 Mexican dollars > > I don't want to sound like the pc-police here, but does this sound a bit > racist to anyone else? Racist? ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/ Online Representative, Austin International Poetry Festival \| / Joe Zitt's Home Page\ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 22:35:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Mitchellmania, Harpermania In-Reply-To: from "Alan Golding" at Aug 9, 95 02:55:38 pm Mitchell also played third base (sort of) for the Mets, and a year, I think in San Diego, where he grew up, and where his brother is bad news. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 02:21:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: In the books were dreams In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning would calmness be without the stain of possession and The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection prickling with tenors, saving arrogance for free choice, long division with its equally long aftertaste, or did its overtone collapse a wild sugar ago the fleet of cabernet oblivions for outrage. Marketing posture allowed gravel a way home My dream a drink w/ Douglas Coupland. We discuss "The Code of the Net" and he is transparent like Victor the Vector getting home & Hector the Protector sent back by the Queen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 02:33:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Long Strange Trip In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the morning from the books out of the dreams away from the lonesome wail of the glob that cradles in its claws The Anthology of retrospective prescience sanded down to mean the elbows cleanly fit to be you or the phantasm that space foreclosed when t he first sentence spilled from heaven wheat of some kind blistered and untun ed by the harpie of space here for add in whatever you choose or not but don't single out the dog waiting to happen and the free mildew lihts behind the cabbage, Pringles, and southerly winds exchanged for francs by the `Defense de glouglouter' sign. Me, I'm just in bracket mode and making a racket, the rocket high in the night sky explodes, unloading ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 02:41:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Mitchellmania, Harpermania Kevin Mitchell was the Most Valuable Player for the National League in 1989, I believe, the year he hit 47 homers to lead the league. He once caught a line drive in left field with his bare hand. But he did grow up in the San Diego ghetto and still hangs with his childhood buddies. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 00:28:13 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: job for writer w/Haitian Radio (fwd) This was attached to an e-mail from a friend in the Carribean: ____________________________________________ Wanted: Haitian Radio Scriptwriter Who has experience writing radio drama and has worked in primary education. Good ear for writing drama and a sense of how to write for children is more important than actual radio scriptwriting experience. Must speak and write English, French and/or Creole, and be willing to travel to Washington, DC and Haiti. Fax resume and brief writing sample to: Betsy Goldstein at (202) 223-4059. ................................................ E. Winters ewinters@netcom.com http://www.wordsimages.com/ewinters/ewinters.htm 37.53 N 122.17 W ................................................ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 12:02:55 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: Renga3? >>> > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >>> > > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >>> > > > > would calmness be without the stain of possession and >>> > > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >>> > > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >>> >>> The caravan of windows to what they flee >>> > > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >>> > > > > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >>> > > > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >>> > > > >>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >>> > > >> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >>> > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >>> > > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >>> > > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >>> > > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >>> > > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection >>> > > prickling with tenors, saving arrogance for free choice, long division >>> > > with its equally long aftertaste, or did its overtone >>> > collapse a wild sugar ago the fleet of cabernet oblivions for >>> > outrage. Marketing posture allowed gravel a way home >>> My dream a drink w/ Douglas Coupland. We discuss "The Code of the Net" >> and he is transparent like Victor the Vector getting home > brew safely to the lips pornographied like pressure in the tongue detuned) to set sail from these balmy hunks of land and take a break ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 06:36:01 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: In the books were dreams In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning would calmness be without the stain of possession and The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection prickling with tenors, saving arrogance for free choice, long division with its equally long aftertaste, or did its overtone collapse a wild sugar ago the fleet of cabernet oblivions for outrage. Marketing posture allowed gravel a way home My dream a drink w/ Douglas Coupland. We discuss "The Code of the Net" and he is transparent like Victor the Vector getting home & Hector the Protector sent back by the Queen of Wands, who willed her magic to free political sentences charles alexander [===========^^============] [ <> ] chax press [ maybe a <> pages ] [ time <> letters ] phone & fax: 612-721-6063 [ upon <> frames ] [ once <> motion ] e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu [ <> ] [===========vv============] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 06:41:11 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Long Strange Trip In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the morning from the books out of the dreams away from the lonesome wail of the glob that cradles in its claws The Anthology of retrospective prescience sanded down to mean the elbows cleanly fit to be you or the phantasm that space foreclosed when t he first sentence spilled from heaven wheat of some kind blistered and untun ed by the harpie of space here for add in whatever you choose or not but don't single out the dog waiting to happen and the free mildew lihts behind the cabbage, Pringles, and southerly winds exchanged for francs by the `Defense de glouglouter' sign. Me, I'm just in bracket mode and making a racket, the rocket high in the night sky explodes, unloading spackle not stars, shy fires made present in a dustful system charles alexander [===========^^============] [ <> ] chax press [ maybe a <> pages ] [ time <> letters ] phone & fax: 612-721-6063 [ upon <> frames ] [ once <> motion ] e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu [ <> ] [===========vv============] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 09:20:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: In the books were dreams In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning would calmness be without the stain of possession and The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection prickling with tenors, saving arrogance for free choice, long division with its equally long aftertaste, or did its overtone collapse a wild sugar ago the fleet of cabernet oblivions for outrage. Marketing posture allowed gravel a way home My dream a drink w/ Douglas Coupland. We discuss "The Code of the Net" and he is transparent like Victor the Vector getting home & Hector the Protector sent back by the Queen of Wands, who willed her magic to free political sentences and wake us from such dreams. He stayed in to practice ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 09:24:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: Long Strange Trip In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the morning from the books out of the dreams away from the lonesome wail of the glob that cradles in its claws The Anthology of retrospective prescience sanded down to mean the elbows cleanly fit to be you or the phantasm that space foreclosed when t he first sentence spilled from heaven wheat of some kind blistered and untun ed by the harpie of space here for add in whatever you choose or not but don't single out the dog waiting to happen and the free mildew lihts behind the cabbage, Pringles, and southerly winds exchanged for francs by the `Defense de glouglouter' sign. Me, I'm just in bracket mode and making a racket, the rocket high in the night sky explodes, unloading spackle not stars, shy fires made present in a dustful system in which I lunch with Bernardine Dohrn. Must we wake dreamers if ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 10:19:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Pangborn Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Re: JG others and us Tony Green asks: > >to Alam Sondheim (& Survivors - of the 60s/70s all) is it still cool >to say Right On? > No. Say that and I promise I'll punch your lights out. (Oops-- had my fingers crossed just then. Peace, mon. Seriously one very seldom hears that phrase uttered without a tinge of ironic self-citation, as though in scary-sarcastic quotation marks. Same with "politically correct." Even Marvin Gaye seems to be laughing at himself --or some *autre*--when he sprechsings it in "What's Goin' On." We'd say, "Right arm, man." Polar opposite of "right face" or "dress right, dress," so it felt at the time. Nowadays I reach back a bit farther and, following Creeley, just say "dig.") --JimP ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 10:43:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Pangborn Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Re: ringing renga Jorge writes, >it is racist in that it presumes that mexicans lack imagination >since the only thing that can stop renga is precisely the lack of >imagination. i am partly mexican and, as the famous corrido says, "que >siga la renga!" Aha: I thought Dodie might have meant that the offending post portrayed Russian caucasians like Trotsky as congenitally unable to keep from exploiting needy third-world lab technicians, setting up sweatshops despite his professedly communist political stance. Thanks for setting me straight on that. Personally, I view the Rengba virus as God's revenge on those who carped about the Anti-Hegemony Project taking up too much list-space a while back. You know, the type of people who come down with it . . . Dodie Bellamy wrote On Wed, 9 Aug 1995, Kevin Killian wrote: > On Aug 9 Thomas Bell wrote > > >Aftrer courageous efforts by allnight workers in Mexico City > >a cure to the renbga virus was found, saving millions of users > >worldwide . The source was discovered and it can be removed! > >Contact LTrotsky@mexico.com for a visusrenag remover - 77 Mexican dollars > > I don't want to sound like the pc-police here, but does this sound a bit > racist to anyone else? > > Dodie Bellamy > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 10:31:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Mitchellmania, Harpermania ron s writes: > Kevin Mitchell was the Most Valuable Player for the National League in > 1989, I believe, the year he hit 47 homers to lead the league. He once > caught a line drive in left field with his bare hand. But he did grow > up in the San Diego ghetto and still hangs with his childhood buddies. this is strange and interesting. all the responses i've gotten to the q. who is kevin mitchell have yielded that he is mediocre, most valuable player, interesting, uninteresting, good bad etc. thanks!--md ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 11:36:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: eR 1 Comments: To: Joseph Zitt In-Reply-To: <199508100357.WAA06601@zoom.bga.com> On Wed, 9 Aug 1995, Joseph Zitt wrote: > On 8 Aug 95 at 23:43, Jorge Guitart wrote: > > > > > >> >> > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > > > >> >> > > > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > > > >> >> > > > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > > > >> >> > > > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > > > >> >> > > > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > > > >> >> > > > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > > > > >> >> > > > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > > > >> >> > > > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > > > >> >> > > > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > > > >> >> > > > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > > > >> >> > > > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > > > >> >> > > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > > > >> >> > > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > > > > >> >> > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > > > > >> >> ><< lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the > > > > >> >> morning > > > > >> >> from the books out of the dreams away from the lonesome > > > > >> >> wail of the glob that cradles in its claws The Anthology > > > > >> >> of retrospective prescience sanded down to mean the elbows > > > > cleanly > > > > >> fit to be you or the phantasm that space foreclosed when the > > > > first sentence spilled from heaven wheat of some kind blistered and untuned > > > > by the harpie of space here for add in whatever you choose or not > > but don't single out the dog waiting to happen and the free mildew > leases, the hare that bit him, the cat in the box (perhaps) the one that Hrodinger left here and I don't know if I am alive ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 10:36:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: JG others and us pangborn writes: > Tony Green asks: > > > >to Alam Sondheim (& Survivors - of the 60s/70s all) is it still cool > >to say Right On? > > > > No. Say that and I promise I'll punch your lights out. > excuse me i say right on and groovy all the time. others impute an irony to my using those phrases (assuming no one could say them "straight" anymore), but i'm just saying it. saying it. saying it. come to mpls and i'll say it for you a coupla times. or rather, since i'm going on sabbatical, come to cape cod (YAY!) and i'll say it for you a coupla times.--md ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 11:53:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Long Strange Trip II In-Reply-To: <199508100933.CAA24600@ix5.ix.netcom.com> > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The caravan of windows to what they flee > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the > morning > from the books out of the dreams away from the lonesome > wail of the glob that cradles in its claws The Anthology > of retrospective prescience sanded down to mean the elbows > cleanly > fit to be you or the phantasm that space foreclosed when t > he > first sentence spilled from heaven wheat of some kind blistered and > untun > ed > by the harpie of space here for add in whatever you choose or not > but don't single out the dog waiting to happen and the free mildew > lihts behind the cabbage, Pringles, and southerly winds exchanged for > francs > by the `Defense de glouglouter' sign. Me, I'm just in bracket mode and > making a racket, the rocket high in the night sky explodes, unloading the sperm of light looking to connect with the egg of night, but if you ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 11:59:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Renga3? In-Reply-To: <9508101155.aa29183@post.demon.co.uk> On Thu, 10 Aug 1995, cris cheek wrote: > >>> > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >>> > > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >>> > > > > would calmness be without the stain of possession and > >>> > > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >>> > > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >>> >>> The caravan of windows to what they flee > >>> > > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >>> > > > > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >>> > > > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >>> > > > >>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >>> > > >> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >>> > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >>> > > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >>> > > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >>> > > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > >>> > > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection > >>> > > prickling with tenors, saving arrogance for free choice, long division > >>> > > with its equally long aftertaste, or did its overtone > >>> > collapse a wild sugar ago the fleet of cabernet oblivions for > >>> > outrage. Marketing posture allowed gravel a way home > >>> My dream a drink w/ Douglas Coupland. We discuss "The Code of the Net" > >> and he is transparent like Victor the Vector getting home > > brew safely to the lips pornographied like pressure in the tongue > detuned) to set sail from these balmy hunks of land and take a break but bring back the head of elena garcia attached to her body, please ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 12:09:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: In the books were dreams In-Reply-To: <38300.mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu> On Thu, 10 Aug 1995, Charles Alexander wrote: > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > would calmness be without the stain of possession and > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The caravan of windows to what they flee > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > (inspection > prickling with tenors, saving arrogance for free choice, long division > with its equally long aftertaste, or did its overtone > collapse a wild sugar ago the fleet of cabernet oblivions for > outrage. Marketing posture allowed gravel a way home > My dream a drink w/ Douglas Coupland. We discuss "The Code of the Net" > and he is transparent like Victor the Vector getting home > & Hector the Protector sent back by the Queen > of Wands, who willed her magic to free political sentences that that the `that' might live by the Lake of Innisprison [===========^^============] > [ mebbe i'm <> i'm ] > [ rahht <> wrong ] > [ an' <> n' mebbe] > [ mebbe <> i'm weak > [===========vv============] > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 12:13:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Long Strange Trip In-Reply-To: <199508101324.JAA19041@yorick.umd.edu> On Thu, 10 Aug 1995, Tom Mandel wrote: > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The caravan of windows to what they flee > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the > morning > from the books out of the dreams away from the lonesome > wail of the glob that cradles in its claws The Anthology > of retrospective prescience sanded down to mean the elbows > cleanly > fit to be you or the phantasm that space foreclosed when t > he > first sentence spilled from heaven wheat of some kind blistered and > untun > ed > by the harpie of space here for add in whatever you choose or not > but don't single out the dog waiting to happen and the free mildew > lihts behind the cabbage, Pringles, and southerly winds exchanged for > francs > by the `Defense de glouglouter' sign. Me, I'm just in bracket mode and > making a racket, the rocket high in the night sky explodes, unloading > spackle not stars, shy fires made present in a dustful system > in which I lunch with Bernardine Dohrn. Must we wake dreamers if they are having a general good time with B.D.? And must we ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 12:17:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: desire / and the 39 steps to leave: and hissing tape, his silence like the poppy without bloom, the garden (wholly his) unweeded, and the face, no longer mine, gives back dry lips, but no amazement, for it's always thus. dickinson, of course: the moss. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 09:21:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: In the books were dreams >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >would calmness be without the stain of possession and >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >The caravan of windows to what they flee >These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >& opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > (inspection >prickling with tenors, saving arrogance for free choice, long division >with its equally long aftertaste, or did its overtone >collapse a wild sugar ago the fleet of cabernet oblivions for >outrage. Marketing posture allowed gravel a way home >My dream a drink w/ Douglas Coupland. We discuss "The Code of the Net" >and he is transparent like Victor the Vector getting home >& Hector the Protector sent back by the Queen >of Wands, who willed her magic to free political sentences >and wake us from such dreams. He stayed in to practice the cool float of heretocracy he'd read was poles apart from pastures ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 09:25:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: Long Strange Trip >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >The caravan of windows to what they flee >These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >& opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >lunar dust, the misdirected modules returning to the > morning >from the books out of the dreams away from the lonesome >wail of the glob that cradles in its claws The Anthology >of retrospective prescience sanded down to mean the elbows > cleanly >fit to be you or the phantasm that space foreclosed when t >he >first sentence spilled from heaven wheat of some kind blistered and >untun >ed >by the harpie of space here for add in whatever you choose or not >but don't single out the dog waiting to happen and the free mildew >lihts behind the cabbage, Pringles, and southerly winds exchanged for >francs > by the `Defense de glouglouter' sign. Me, I'm just in bracket mode and >making a racket, the rocket high in the night sky explodes, unloading >spackle not stars, shy fires made present in a dustful system >in which I lunch with Bernardine Dohrn. Must we wake dreamers if they consistently resist trance, favoring the transom as more tangible dreamcatcher than ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 12:26:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: ringing renga In-Reply-To: <01HTWKWYRID88WXK89@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu> for the record, i don't think Tom Bell's message was racist. i was being as facetious as he was. mexicans are not a race. On Thu, 10 Aug 1995, Jim Pangborn wrote > Jorge writes, > >it is racist in that it presumes that mexicans lack imagination > >since the only thing that can stop renga is precisely the lack of > >imagination. i am partly mexican and, as the famous corrido says, "que > >siga la renga!" > > Aha: I thought Dodie might have meant that the offending post portrayed Russian > caucasians like Trotsky as congenitally unable to keep from exploiting needy > third-world lab technicians, setting up sweatshops despite his professedly > communist political stance. Thanks for setting me straight on that. > > Personally, I view the Rengba virus as God's revenge on those who carped about > the Anti-Hegemony Project taking up too much list-space a while back. > You know, > the type of people who come down with it . . . > > > Dodie Bellamy wrote > > On Wed, 9 Aug 1995, Kevin Killian wrote: > > > On Aug 9 Thomas Bell wrote > > > > >Aftrer courageous efforts by allnight workers in Mexico City > > >a cure to the renbga virus was found, saving millions of users > > >worldwide . The source was discovered and it can be removed! > > >Contact LTrotsky@mexico.com for a visusrenag remover - 77 Mexican dollars > > > > I don't want to sound like the pc-police here, but does this sound a bit > > racist to anyone else? > > > > Dodie Bellamy > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 13:22:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marisa A Januzzi Subject: Job Posting - Assistant Curator, Harvard Theatre Collection (fwd) There were three other jobs advertised on this list, as well... just thought someone our there might be interested. --Marisa ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 18:14:46 -0400 From: Leslie Morris To: Multiple recipients of list EXLIBRIS Subject: Job Posting - Assistant Curator, Harvard Theatre Collection PROFESSIONAL VACANCY Assistant Curator, Harvard Theatre Collection Houghton Library The Houghton Library seeks a creative and thoughtful individual to serve as the Assistant Curator of the Harvard Theatre Collection. Established in 1901, the Theatre Collection is America's oldest performing arts research collection, encompassing all aspects of the history of performance throughout the world, and with particular strengths in the English and American stage and the history of theatrical dance. The Assistant Curator has primary responsibility for organizing and supervising cataloging procedures and computer applications using HOLLIS and the Theatre Collection's local area network; serves as the liaison with other cataloging departments in the College Library, and works closely with colleagues in the Houghton Library; catalogs original materials, including manuscripts, drawings, prints, and photographs; assists the Curator with acquisitions, and supervises the accessioning process. Together with the Curator, the Assistant Curator supervises the office, reading room, and other staff members; contributes to planning and mounting exhibitions and other Harvard Theatre Collection events. The Collection is estimated to contain over 3 million playbills and programs, ca. 650,000 photographs, 250,000 engraved portraits and scenes, 15,000 scenery and costume designs, and nearly 6500 promptbooks, in addition to manuscripts, printed books, journals, and news clippings. The Collection has been located since 1976 in the Nathan Marsh Pusey Library, adjacent to the Houghton Library, which is the principal special collections library of Harvard College. Qualifications: Masters degree in Library Science; advanced degree in drama, theatre history, dance, or an allied subject desirable. Library experience, with cataloging a variety of special formats necessary, especially manuscripts and visual materials. Experience with microcomputer applications and familiarity with automated library systems, with MARC format and AACR2 required. Knowledge of a foreign language desirable. Minimum of five years of professional work experience, preferably in special collections librarianship or archival administration. Exceptional interpersonal and communication skills (both oral and written). Demonstrated flexibility and initiative in adapting to changing organizational priorities. Evidence of and commitment to continuing participation in professional activities. Compensation: Anticipated hiring salary, mid $40's. Major benefits include 20 days annual accrued vacation; generous holiday and sick leave; choice of health plans; dental insurance; life insurance; disability benefits; University-funded retirement income plan; tax deferred annuity options; staff tuition assistance; child care scholarship program. Applications will be accepted until the position is filled. Please submit a letter of application addressing qualifications, resume, and the names of three references to: Hazel C. Stamps Director of Personnel Services Harvard College Library Widener 188 Cambridge, MA 02138 HARVARD UNIVERSITY UPHOLDS A COMMITMENT TO AFFIRMATIVE ACTION AND EQUAL EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITY July 31, 1995 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 13:33:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: Mitchel? Yasusada? A mess o' Yasusada material turned up in the recent _Grand Street_-- the contributors notes on the translators carefully avoid any traceable information-- for example one of them studied "in Ann Arbor" not _at_ any particular university. (The work in _GS_ by the way, not as well done as other I've seen, I think). A certain Kevin Mitchel keeps getting mentioned on this list, & we are aware of his time spent in Japan. . . -Rod ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 12:46:28 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >would calmness be without the stain of possession and >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >The caravan of windows to what they flee >These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >& opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > (inspection >prickling with tenors, saving arrogance for free choice, long division >with its equally long aftertaste, or did its overtone >collapse a wild sugar ago the fleet of cabernet oblivions for >outrage. Marketing posture allowed gravel a way home >My dream a drink w/ Douglas Coupland. We discuss "The Code of the Net" >and he is transparent like Victor the Vector getting home >& Hector the Protector sent back by the Queen >of Wands, who willed her magic to free political sentences >and wake us from such dreams. He stayed in to practice the cool float of heretocracy he'd read was poles apart from pastures que j'essuie comme la loi, saisie, monstrueux ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 16:05:35 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: Baudelaire Gwyn, then by close you mean somt something like what Pound of St. Jerome prescribed for translating? Burt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 16:06:45 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: Baudelaire Gwyn, Forgive my typo: a misidentified "saint": change "Pound of St. Jerome" to Pound OR St. Jerome. bk ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 14:45:23 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The caravan of windows to what they flee > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection > denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, kook!" Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco warehouse, curls ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 10:49:49 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: Mitchellmania, Harpermania In-Reply-To: <199508100941.CAA24991@ix5.ix.netcom.com> That bare-handed line drive, as I recall, was off the bat of Ozzie Smith. Didn't he also play for the Giants for a while? Ronald Reagan had some silly things to say about him when he (Reagan) did the "color" commentary on one of the All Star Games. That was when Reagan called a Hispanic player Jose (just how it's spelled, mind you). signed, a sad Cardinals fan. On Wed, 9 Aug 1995, Ron Silliman wrote: > Kevin Mitchell was the Most Valuable Player for the National League in > 1989, I believe, the year he hit 47 homers to lead the league. He once > caught a line drive in left field with his bare hand. But he did grow > up in the San Diego ghetto and still hangs with his childhood buddies. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 16:02:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: ringing renga pangborn writes: > Jorge writes, > >it is racist in that it presumes that mexicans lack imagination > >since the only thing that can stop renga is precisely the lack of > >imagination. i am partly mexican and, as the famous corrido says, "que > >siga la renga!" > > Aha: I thought Dodie might have meant that the offending post portrayed > Russian > caucasians like Trotsky as congenitally unable to keep from exploiting needy > third-world lab technicians, setting up sweatshops despite his professedly > communist political stance. Thanks for setting me straight on that. > is this anti-semitic?--md ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 17:25:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <9508102045.AA84950@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca> On Thu, 10 Aug 1995, Louis Cabri wrote: > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > The caravan of windows to what they flee > > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > (inspection > > denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > > pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > > mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > > when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, kook!" Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco warehouse, curls no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry cleaners ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 17:47:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Electronic Book Review: Essays & Reviews Wanted (fwrd) [forwarded message] Announcing a new journal on the internet: *Electronic Book Review,* a working forum promoting innovative writing on the internet and in print, is soliciting articles for the Fall of 1995. Initial topics will include talklists, network publishing, the political economy of the internet, and the electronic future of poetry, criticism, drama, and literary fiction. Reviews should be both timely and capable of stimulating discussions beyond the moment of a title's publication. We would prefer thoughtful overviews, polemics, and review essays to evaluations of single works. Serial submissions of chapters from work in progress are welcome, and we will occasionally sponsor on-line publication of books in advance of their appearance in print. Issue #1, scheduled for November, is being organized in collaboration with the *American Book Review*. It will feature reviews of selected electronic journals and talklists, as well as reflections on "books" that can only be read electronically. Essays of 1200-1500 words received by September 15 will be considered for this issue. For issue #2, we are organizing an email essay forum around an original essay by Michael Berube, "Cultural Criticism and the Politics of Selling Out." Additional forums are scheduled for two collections of new writing: *Chick-Lit (On the Edge: New Women's Fiction)* [ed. Cris Mazza and Jeffrey DeShell] and *The Future of Literary Fiction* [ed. David Foster Wallace]. During the first year of operation, we will feature essays and reviews by Mark Amerika, Michael Berube, Linda Brigham, David Cassuto, Carolyn Guyer, Paul Harris, Katherine Hayles, Michael Joyce, Nancy Kaplan, Peter Krapp, Laura Marks, Knut Mork, Marcos Novak, Martin Rosenberg, Alison Sainsbury, Ronald Sukenick, W. S. Wilson, Gregory Ulmer, and Walter Vaninni. EBR will be stored at and distributed from Alt-X (located at http://www.altx.com). Joseph Tabbi English Department University of Illinois 601 South Morgan Street Chicago, Illinois 60607-7120 email inquiries: x@altx.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 14:53:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: JG others and us In-Reply-To: <302a27954c90002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> from "maria damon" at Aug 10, 95 10:36:55 am Hey, Maria, Right On! I mean Far Out! Yr Too Much in my book. Hell, I think I say "Solid!" from time to time. GB ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 14:55:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Mitchellmania, Harpermania In-Reply-To: <302a2646443b002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> from "maria damon" at Aug 10, 95 10:31:20 am What used to get baseball purists mad at Kevin Mitchell was that he had enormous skills but did not know much about baseball, and said that it was just the money he was interested in, and he was no baseball fan. I think that bothered his detractors more than his scrapes with the law. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 15:05:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Renga 11 In-Reply-To: from "Jorge Guitart" at Aug 8, 95 11:37:25 pm In the books were dreams, and ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 15:17:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: avoidance behavior syndrome In-Reply-To: from "Willa Jarnagin" at Aug 8, 95 11:03:33 am Well, no, I dont BELIEVE in guitar; but I do keep my miniature cactus collection in a 1966 Chet Atkins. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 15:20:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: ARRORENGA Louis Cabri wrote >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >would calmness be without the stain of possession and >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >The caravan of windows to what they flee >These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >& opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > (inspection >prickling with tenors, saving arrogance for free choice, long division >with its equally long aftertaste, or did its overtone >collapse a wild sugar ago the fleet of cabernet oblivions for >outrage. Marketing posture allowed gravel a way home >My dream a drink w/ Douglas Coupland. We discuss "The Code of the Net" >and he is transparent like Victor the Vector getting home >& Hector the Protector sent back by the Queen >of Wands, who willed her magic to free political sentences >and wake us from such dreams. He stayed in to practice >the cool float of heretocracy he'd read was poles apart from pastures >que j'essuie comme la loi, saisie, monstrueux Mayakovky govoril o pants and the tailoring was fine ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 16:15:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: your mail >On Thu, 10 Aug 1995, Louis Cabri wrote: > >> > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> > The caravan of windows to what they flee >> > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >> > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >> > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >> > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >> > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance >> (inspection >> > denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing >> > pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several >> > mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango >> > when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, kook!" >Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco warehouse, curls >no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry cleaners having recovered from the chemicals of deadlines drop stitched into ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 12:26:47 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: JG others and us ""Right On" Alan Sondheim" Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 20:42:40 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden <74277.1477@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Padgett's definition From _Handbook of Poetic Forms_, edited by Ron Padgett: "Renga are long, image-filled poems written in alternating stanzas of three lines and two lines, usually by a group of poets who take turns. In Japan, where renga originated as a party game, poets used to make renga of 1,000 or more stanzas, although 100 stanzas was the usual length. The great poet Matsuo Basho (1644-1694) preferred renga of thirty-six stanzas, and this continues to be the popular length today. ...Renga do not read like stories; each stanza "links" to the one before it, but not to the one before that...The first six or eight stanzas are like the beginning of a party, when people introduce one another, a bit formally. In the middle twenty to twenty-four stanzas the party warms up, with stanzas that include humor and the whole range of human emotions. A renga ends with six or eight stanzas that move quickly through closely related images, with simple, straightforward linking, like the end of the party, when everyone gets ready to go home. Traditionally, the last stanza has a spring image, indicating hopefulness and peace..." Etc., including examples. I'm finding many of the posted "renga" lines very graceful, and am all for playfulness, the posting of poems, use of received forms. But does anyone else find it weird, at least, that we are writing so-called renga, and kvetching about so-called renga, when for the most part we have no idea what they are? And is it the "exoticism" of renga (the non-whiteness of them?) that makes them glam enough for us to fool around with, when for the most part, we wouldn't be caught dead in the McCarthyite "market strategy" of sonnet-writing (Ted Berrigan and others notwithstanding)? Thought I'd ask... Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 16:06:10 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: pardonnez-moi! enfin, c'est la brume de 'traduction'... >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >would calmness be without the stain of possession and >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >The caravan of windows to what they flee >These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >& opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > (inspection >prickling with tenors, saving arrogance for free choice, long division >with its equally long aftertaste, or did its overtone >collapse a wild sugar ago the fleet of cabernet oblivions for >outrage. Marketing posture allowed gravel a way home >My dream a drink w/ Douglas Coupland. We discuss "The Code of the Net" >and he is transparent like Victor the Vector getting home >& Hector the Protector sent back by the Queen >of Wands, who willed her magic to free political sentences >and wake us from such dreams. He stayed in to practice the cool float of heretocracy he'd read was poles apart from pastures que j'essuie comme la loi, saisie, monstrueuse ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 19:01:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: Renga 11 In-Reply-To: <199508102205.PAA07230@fraser.sfu.ca> from "George Bowering" at Aug 10, 95 03:05:31 pm In your dreams > > In the books were dreams, and > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 19:08:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: JG others and us In-Reply-To: from "Tony Green" at Aug 11, 95 12:26:47 pm Gee, I suppose swell is too square, eh? I dunno, I'm a seventies child polluted by eighties lingo. Choice language, for bitchin folk. What about nifty? Or is that fifties, daddyo? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 22:08:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Padgett's definition In-Reply-To: <950811004240_74277.1477_HHJ84-1@CompuServe.COM> Not to be caught dead, oh sonneteer As if the wound festers, disease Or other thing, a faulty ear Hearing what politicians please To call their own, discomfort In our postmodernity While gallantly we reinsert Ignorance as prosperity. There's politics in everything we do Beyond the obvious; the obvious, not so Although the obvious is never true I'd think, at least in email, imho. Cut the ranks of renga's weary tone, Our ignorance, or throw the form a bone. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 22:42:43 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden <74277.1477@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: "marketing strategies" Herb Levy, I'm coming in very late on this, but was quite intrigued by what you had to say about the writing of sonnets being possible today only as a "marketing strategy." (Forgive me if I'm not quoting you exactly, but I think I have the sense). First, could you define "marketing strategy"? How does it differ from style, say, or any other honey we use, as writers, to catch flies? The writing of the new formalists hasn't interested me, but not because they *are* formalists--rather because the poems themselves have seemed warmed-over and bland. It seems to me that theory, not form, is the real marketing strategy, in literature at least. In science a theory is used to test a hypothesis, but in literature theory is used, far too often, to carry a whole school of writers--the bad along with the good--into prominence. It is used as an excuse to stop thinking, to stop reading widely, to circle the wagons. It is, essentially, fear, in an intellectual form. Rather than testing a hypothesis, and breaking new ground, theory in literary hands seems to be used as an instrument of enforcement, prescribing the sorts of poems (or fictions or whatever) which are to be written. I was fascinated when someone on this list, looking for the almost mythical Cap-l, land of the new formalists, said that what they wanted was (paraphrased) a real snail darter, McCarthyite, sonnet-writing list (wish I could quote exactly, it was beautifully expressed). Disappointingly, the new formalists don't seem to be over there, although an increasingly Talmudic discussion of metrics among *old* formalists led to frustrated explosions from other members of the list, and then to silence. Still, the longing was there, for the *other*, whatever weird web-footed creature that might be. In fact, the most interesting thing that did happen on Cap-l, before its apparent demise, was a dialogue between Ron Silliman and Alfred Corn on "parallel traditions" in which I learned vastly more about Silliman's work than I ever have on POETICS. Why might that be? More questions, asked with affection and respect... Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 23:12:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Pangborn Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Re: ringing renga maria damon writes, > pangborn writes: >> Aha: I thought Dodie might have meant that the offending post portrayed >> Russian >> caucasians like Trotsky as congenitally unable to keep from exploiting needy >> third-world lab technicians, setting up sweatshops despite his professedly >> communist political stance. Thanks for setting me straight on that. > > is this anti-semitic?--md Yikes--flames smart, and smart flames smart the more smartly. But no, not anti-semitic except to those who think of semites as a race. They're no more so than are Mexicans--which is what I was kidding about before Jorge decided, in all sincerity, that he had to spell it all out. Dig: that irony gets all over everything around here. Like the dude says in _The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test_, like, if you mess with it you're gonna get some on ya, like, like it or not, dude. --Jim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 22:55:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Your Mail Sheila E. Murphy wrote: ->On Thu, 10 Aug 1995, Louis Cabri wrote: -> ->> > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. ->> > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning ->> > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar ->> > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud ->> > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds ->> > The caravan of windows to what they flee ->> > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more ->> > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling ->> > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago ->> > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing ->> > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the ->> > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind ->> > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she ->> > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of ->> > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's ->> > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance ->> (inspection ->> > denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing ->> > pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several ->> > mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango ->> > when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, kook!" ->Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco warehouse, ->curls ->no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry ->cleaners ->having recovered from the chemicals of deadlines drop stitched into the ball Kevin Mitchell bare handed. Baseball sold out. cash stricken striked. Would that as a poet I had the chance to do something like ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 21:29:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Padgett's definition From what I have seen the point is that this is a transformation of the "renga" to a contemporary electronic medium. there are patterns and traditions evolving here. Or, renga-ignorance is bliss. Tom Bell ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 21:42:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Your Mail Sheila E. Murphy wrote: ->On Thu, 10 Aug 1995, Louis Cabri wrote: -> ->> > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. ->> > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning ->> > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar ->> > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud ->> > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds ->> > The caravan of windows to what they flee ->> > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more ->> > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling ->> > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago ->> > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing ->> > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the ->> > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind ->> > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she ->> > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of ->> > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's ->> > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance ->> (inspection ->> > denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing ->> > pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several ->> > mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango ->> > when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, kook!" ->Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco warehouse, ->curls ->no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry ->cleaners ->having recovered from the chemicals of deadlines drop stitched into the ball Kevin Mitchell bare handed. Baseball sold out. cash stricken striked. Would that as a poet I had the chance to do something like ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 21:41:16 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anmarie Trimble Subject: Re: JG others and us >Gee, I suppose swell is too square, eh? I dunno, I'm a seventies child >polluted by eighties lingo. Choice language, for bitchin folk. What >about nifty? Or is that fifties, daddyo? Way! Say anything but dude. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 22:02:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: your mail >On Thu, 10 Aug 1995, Louis Cabri wrote: > >> > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> > The caravan of windows to what they flee >> > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >> > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >> > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >> > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >> > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance >> (inspection >> > denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing >> > pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several >> > mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango >> > when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, kook!" >Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco warehouse, curls >no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry cleaners piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 21:10:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: JG others and us >pangborn writes: >> Tony Green asks: >> > >> >to Alam Sondheim (& Survivors - of the 60s/70s all) is it still cool >> >to say Right On? >> > >> >> No. Say that and I promise I'll punch your lights out. >> > excuse me i say right on and groovy all the time. others impute an irony to my >using those phrases (assuming no one could say them "straight" anymore), but i'm >just saying it. saying it. saying it. come to mpls and i'll say it for you a >coupla times. or rather, since i'm going on sabbatical, come to cape cod (YAY!) >and i'll say it for you a coupla times.--md Certain phenomena, I would argue, can only be adequately described (and "adequately" is a judgment call on my part, of course) by the use of the word "groovy." So, right on, Maria, I'm with you. (In spirit only, natch.) Steve ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 02:54:35 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: why renga, why not sonnet? In response to Rachel Loden's >And is it the "exoticism" of renga (the non-whiteness of them?) >that makes them glam enough for us to fool around with, when >for the most part, we wouldn't be caught dead in the McCarthyite >"market strategy" of sonnet-writing (Ted Berrigan and others >notwithstanding)? > >Thought I'd ask... Possibly, but I think people basically are getting some joy from inventing lines of poetry (and yes, many graceful, intriguing ones) and from the people with whom they are inventing -- whether it be renga or sonnet or villanelle. Although perhaps no matter what the form, we would be circumventing and developing it wholly without consideration of what its historical shape and function are. Rachel, does Padgett say or imply then, that in a traditional renga, alternating stanzas are written by different poets, rather than alternate lines being written by different poets? all best, charles charles alexander [===========^^============] [ <> ] chax press [ maybe a <> pages ] [ time <> letters ] phone & fax: 612-721-6063 [ upon <> frames ] [ once <> motion ] e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu [ <> ] [===========vv============] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 03:05:01 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Your Mail In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, kook!" Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco warehouse, curls no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry cleaners having recovered from the chemicals of deadlines drop stitched into the ball Kevin Mitchell bare handed. Baseball sold out. cash stricken striked. Would that as a poet I had the chance to do something like grace the outfield, hands bare from ringing, washing scales of passion's conformity never minding a green surface, far cry from eternity, kitchen table ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 06:45:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: JG others and us In-Reply-To: <199508110410.VAA08386@slip-1.slip.net> There was a book about a decade ago - The 60s without Apology I think) (edited by Stanley Aronowitz - I forget the details) with an article on 60s language, its relation to the body, its body-centeredness (body- states, meanderings) - and how these terms have been lost as the body's been resutured, recuperated as Kristeva's clean and proper body (my own interpretation, see Powers of Horror), everything conjoined once again. So that JG and others can be seen in light of that, re: Blake again, the open body, vibes, a language breaking through language, report from the flesh - Alan - ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 07:16:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: ARRORENGA In-Reply-To: <199508102220.PAA20560@well.com> On Thu, 10 Aug 1995, Thomas Bell wrote: > Louis Cabri wrote > > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >would calmness be without the stain of possession and > >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >The caravan of windows to what they flee > >These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >& opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > >halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > > (inspection > >prickling with tenors, saving arrogance for free choice, long > division > >with its equally long aftertaste, or did its overtone > >collapse a wild sugar ago the fleet of cabernet oblivions for > >outrage. Marketing posture allowed gravel a way home > >My dream a drink w/ Douglas Coupland. We discuss "The Code of > the Net" > >and he is transparent like Victor the Vector getting home > >& Hector the Protector sent back by the Queen > >of Wands, who willed her magic to free political sentences > >and wake us from such dreams. He stayed in to practice > >the cool float of heretocracy he'd read was poles apart from > pastures > >que j'essuie comme la loi, saisie, monstrueux > Mayakovky govoril o pants and the tailoring was fine > in d.s. where [[no one] [didn't like sarah lee]] hated her. An ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 07:19:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <199508102315.QAA29159@bob.indirect.com> On Thu, 10 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >On Thu, 10 Aug 1995, Louis Cabri wrote: > > > >> > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> > The caravan of windows to what they flee > >> > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >> > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >> > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >> > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >> > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >> > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >> > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >> > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >> > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > >> > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > >> (inspection > >> > denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > >> > pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > >> > mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > >> > when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, kook!" > >Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco warehouse, curls > >no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry cleaners > having recovered from the chemicals of deadlines drop stitched into > the mowers that be cut here cut and find your motionlessness you'd only ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 07:55:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Padgett's definition In-Reply-To: <950811004240_74277.1477_HHJ84-1@CompuServe.COM> Welcome Rachel and thanks. Another nonwhite thing which (unlike amateur (i.e. `lover') renga) is marketable is the pantoum. We should look into that. So long as I "have" "my" `coffee' `I' will not be `caught' "dead " in the "marketplace" `of' "ideas". Query: Who was the McCarthy who wrote sonnets or promoted them? On Thu, 10 Aug 1995, Rachel Loden wrote: > From _Handbook of Poetic Forms_, edited by Ron Padgett: > > "Renga are long, image-filled poems written in alternating > stanzas of three lines and two lines, usually by a group of > poets who take turns. In Japan, where renga originated as a > party game, poets used to make renga of 1,000 or more > stanzas, although 100 stanzas was the usual length. The great > poet Matsuo Basho (1644-1694) preferred renga of thirty-six > stanzas, and this continues to be the popular length today. > ...Renga do not read like stories; each stanza "links" to > the one before it, but not to the one before that...The first > six or eight stanzas are like the beginning of a party, when > people introduce one another, a bit formally. In the middle > twenty to twenty-four stanzas the party warms up, with stanzas > that include humor and the whole range of human emotions. A > renga ends with six or eight stanzas that move quickly through > closely related images, with simple, straightforward linking, > like the end of the party, when everyone gets ready to go home. > Traditionally, the last stanza has a spring image, indicating > hopefulness and peace..." Etc., including examples. > > I'm finding many of the posted "renga" lines very graceful, and > am all for playfulness, the posting of poems, use of received > forms. But does anyone else find it weird, at least, that we > are writing so-called renga, and kvetching about so-called > renga, when for the most part we have no idea what they are? > > And is it the "exoticism" of renga (the non-whiteness of them?) > that makes them glam enough for us to fool around with, when > for the most part, we wouldn't be caught dead in the McCarthyite > "market strategy" of sonnet-writing (Ted Berrigan and others > notwithstanding)? > > Thought I'd ask... > > Rachel Loden > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 07:57:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: pardonnez-moi! enfin, c'est la brume de 'traduction'... In-Reply-To: <9508102206.AA39147@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca> On Thu, 10 Aug 1995, Louis Cabri wrote: > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >would calmness be without the stain of possession and > >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >The caravan of windows to what they flee > >These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >& opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > >halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > > (inspection > >prickling with tenors, saving arrogance for free choice, long > division > >with its equally long aftertaste, or did its overtone > >collapse a wild sugar ago the fleet of cabernet oblivions for > >outrage. Marketing posture allowed gravel a way home > >My dream a drink w/ Douglas Coupland. We discuss "The Code of > the Net" > >and he is transparent like Victor the Vector getting home > >& Hector the Protector sent back by the Queen > >of Wands, who willed her magic to free political sentences > >and wake us from such dreams. He stayed in to practice > the cool float of heretocracy he'd read was poles apart from > pastures > que j'essuie comme la loi, saisie, monstrueuse chartreuse et delicieuse but let's get to business and see what ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 08:05:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <199508110502.WAA04534@bob.indirect.com> On Thu, 10 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >On Thu, 10 Aug 1995, Louis Cabri wrote: > > > >> > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> > The caravan of windows to what they flee > >> > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >> > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >> > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >> > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >> > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >> > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >> > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >> > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >> > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > >> > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > >> (inspection > >> > denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > >> > pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > >> > mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > >> > when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, kook!" > >Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco warehouse, curls > >no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry cleaners > piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience the day the earth stood still and Klaatu & Gort had a party on the ship > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 08:18:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: Baudelaire In-Reply-To: <00994AC3.C1166E94.1@admin.njit.edu> On Thu, 10 Aug 1995, Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT wrote: > Forgive my typo: a misidentified "saint": change "Pound of St. Jerome" to > Pound OR St. Jerome. > On the contrary, Burt, I think the typo is awfully interesting, and I plan to free-associate on "a pound of St. Jerome" later. Is worth an ounce of = ?? Gwyn ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 08:43:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Mitchellmania, Harpermania In message <199508102155.OAA06357@fraser.sfu.ca> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > What used to get baseball purists mad at Kevin Mitchell was that he > had enormous skills but did not know much about baseball, and said > that it was just the money he was interested in, and he was no > baseball fan. I think that bothered his detractors more than his > scrapes with the law. wow, that actually makes him sound rather interesting to me. what were his scrapes w/ the law?--md ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 08:44:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: ARRORENGA In message <199508102220.PAA20560@well.com> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Louis Cabri wrote > > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >would calmness be without the stain of possession and > >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >The caravan of windows to what they flee > >These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >& opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > >halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > > (inspection > >prickling with tenors, saving arrogance for free choice, long > division > >with its equally long aftertaste, or did its overtone > >collapse a wild sugar ago the fleet of cabernet oblivions for > >outrage. Marketing posture allowed gravel a way home > >My dream a drink w/ Douglas Coupland. We discuss "The Code of > the Net" > >and he is transparent like Victor the Vector getting home > >& Hector the Protector sent back by the Queen > >of Wands, who willed her magic to free political sentences > >and wake us from such dreams. He stayed in to practice > >the cool float of heretocracy he'd read was poles apart from > pastures > >que j'essuie comme la loi, saisie, monstrueux > Mayakovky govoril o pants and the tailoring was fine and i saw, believe it or not, what mankind believes itself to have seen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 08:48:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: JG others and us In message <199508102154.OAA06162@fraser.sfu.ca> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Hey, Maria, Right On! > > I mean Far Out! > > Yr Too Much in my book. > > Hell, I think I say "Solid!" from time to time. > GB hey george, i dig u the most. the first time i heard a guy say that, i really thought he did. i mean, i didn't know it was just an expression of hipster hyperbole. now i say it all the time, every opportunity. jorge, i dig you the most too. you too gabrielle, and of course, brian h and dodie b. and all you others out there in cyperpoetics lang-scape, i dig youse the mostest.--md ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 08:48:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Renga 11 In message <199508102205.PAA07230@fraser.sfu.ca> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > In the books were dreams, and that was that. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 08:53:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Padgett's definition rachel writes: > And is it the "exoticism" of renga (the non-whiteness of them?) > that makes them glam enough for us to fool around with, when > for the most part, we wouldn't be caught dead in the McCarthyite > "market strategy" of sonnet-writing (Ted Berrigan and others > notwithstanding)? > > Thought I'd ask... > > Rachel Loden shall i compare thee to a summer's minnesota thundershower? thought i'd ask...feel free to add on--md ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 08:55:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Renga 11 ryan k writes: jerry garcia's In your dreams In the books were dreams, and > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 09:51:30 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden <74277.1477@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: poet and statesman Jorge, The reference is to Senator Joe, (R-Wisconsin). We have yet to find his cache of sonnets--and what a discovery that will be--but he was symbolized, in my red-diaper babyhood, by the men in suits at the door... Rachel ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 10:07:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: ARRORENGA In-Reply-To: <302b5ed73e29002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> On Fri, 11 Aug 1995, maria damon wrote: > In message <199508102220.PAA20560@well.com> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > > Louis Cabri wrote > > > > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > >would calmness be without the stain of possession and > > >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > >The caravan of windows to what they flee > > >These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > >Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > >but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > >Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > >& opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > >bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > >kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > > >gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > > >flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > > >halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > > > (inspection > > >prickling with tenors, saving arrogance for free choice, long > > division > > >with its equally long aftertaste, or did its overtone > > >collapse a wild sugar ago the fleet of cabernet oblivions for > > >outrage. Marketing posture allowed gravel a way home > > >My dream a drink w/ Douglas Coupland. We discuss "The Code of > > the Net" > > >and he is transparent like Victor the Vector getting home > > >& Hector the Protector sent back by the Queen > > >of Wands, who willed her magic to free political sentences > > >and wake us from such dreams. He stayed in to practice > > >the cool float of heretocracy he'd read was poles apart from > > pastures > > >que j'essuie comme la loi, saisie, monstrueux > > Mayakovky govoril o pants and the tailoring was fine > and i saw, believe it or not, what mankind believes itself to have seen side by side with womankind vying for the stereoscope ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 09:18:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: ringing renga pangborn writes: > maria damon writes, > > pangborn writes: > >> Aha: I thought Dodie might have meant that the offending post portrayed > >> Russian > >> caucasians like Trotsky as congenitally unable to keep from exploiting > > needy > >> third-world lab technicians, setting up sweatshops despite his professedly > >> communist political stance. Thanks for setting me straight on that. > > > > is this anti-semitic?--md > > Yikes--flames smart, and smart flames smart the more smartly. > > But no, not anti-semitic except to those who think of semites as a race. > They're no more so than are Mexicans--which is what I was kidding about > before Jorge decided, in all sincerity, that he had to spell it all out. > > Dig: that irony gets all over everything around here. Like the dude says > in _The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test_, like, if you mess with it you're gonna > get some on ya, like, like it or not, dude. > > --Jim cool, bro, truce, couldn't resist, like, is "caucasian" a race? is there such a thing as race? and yes, i did sense irony, but that sense was overborne (?) by that other sense. peace, man--md ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 09:21:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: your mail sheila m writes: > >On Thu, 10 Aug 1995, Louis Cabri wrote: > > > >> > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> > The caravan of windows to what they flee > >> > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >> > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >> > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >> > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >> > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >> > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >> > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >> > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >> > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > >> > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > >> (inspection > >> > denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > >> > pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > >> > mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > >> > when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, kook!" > >Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco warehouse, > curls > >no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry > cleaners > piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 09:22:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: JG others and us steve writes: > > Certain phenomena, I would argue, can only be adequately described (and > "adequately" is a judgment call on my part, of course) by the use of the > word "groovy." So, right on, Maria, I'm with you. (In spirit only, natch.) > > Steve come back, o gary sullivan!--md ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 09:25:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: JG others and us sondheim writes: > There was a book about a decade ago - The 60s without Apology I think) > (edited by Stanley Aronowitz - I forget the details) with an article on > 60s language, its relation to the body, its body-centeredness (body- > states, meanderings) - and how these terms have been lost as the body's > been resutured, recuperated as Kristeva's clean and proper body (my own > interpretation, see Powers of Horror), everything conjoined once again. > So that JG and others can be seen in light of that, re: Blake again, the > open body, vibes, a language breaking through language, report from the > flesh - Alan - a resounding right on here! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 10:27:06 -0400 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: Padgett's definition > From _Handbook of Poetic Forms_, edited by Ron Padgett: > > "Renga are long, image-filled poems written in alternating > stanzas of three lines and two lines, usually by a group of > poets who take turns. In Japan, where renga originated as a > party game, poets used to make renga of 1,000 or more > stanzas, although 100 stanzas was the usual length. &&& >Rachel, does Padgett say or imply then, that in a traditional renga, >alternating stanzas are written by different poets, rather than alternate >lines being written by different poets? i believe that the terms "stanzas" and "lines" (and, for that matter, "syllable") are not _exact_ translations for what actually happens in Japanese--some translators, for instance, render japanese haiku as a single line... from _From The Country of Eight Islands_, edited by Hiroaki Sato & Burton Watson: "Toward the end of the Heian period, poets composing in the tanka form began to follow a tendency to divide the 31-syllable form and organize images into two smaller parts of 5-7-5 and 7-7 syllables. By the fourteenth centruy, such a division had made dominant the poetic form of renga, in which usually two or more poets wrote alternating 5-7-5 and 7-7 syllable parts. Although any two consecutive parts--but not mare--of a renga were to relate directly, such linking did permit the development of longer poetic structures...The amount of concentration and cooperation required for successful renga composition might be compared with the challenge of playing chamber music: in both cases, each participant must listen carefully to his companions as well as to himself in order to keep the momentum boing. The pleasure of "performing" poetry in a group, already an important element in the tanka contests of the imperial court, flowered in the cooperative esthetic of the renga." the translations this book provide seem to render the parts (5-7-5 and 7-7 "syllable" "lines") as single english lines; most but not all of these parts are by alternating poets, but occasionally a single poet will contribute several parts in a row... also: "in content, there were two kinds of renga: the formal serious kind that stressed elegance in the court poetry tradition, and the light humorous kind that stressed earthiness and realism. The latter, known as haikai no renga or simply haikai, often overwhelmed the serious renga in sheer popularity... hmmm... i wonder which of those two kinds we're most akin to here?... and i wonder if those tanka contests were like poetry slams?? asallways luigi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 08:57:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Padgett's definition sondheim writes: >... > Although the obvious is never true > I'd think, at least in email, imho. > Cut the ranks of renga's weary tone, > Our ignorance, or throw the form a bone. what's imho?--md ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 09:27:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: pardonnez-moi! enfin, c'est la brume de 'traduction'... jorge writes: > On Thu, 10 Aug 1995, Louis Cabri wrote: > > > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > >would calmness be without the stain of possession and > > >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > >The caravan of windows to what they flee > > >These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > >Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > >but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > >Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > >& opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > >bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > >kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > > >gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > > >flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > > >halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > > > (inspection > > >prickling with tenors, saving arrogance for free choice, long > > division > > >with its equally long aftertaste, or did its overtone > > >collapse a wild sugar ago the fleet of cabernet oblivions for > > >outrage. Marketing posture allowed gravel a way home > > >My dream a drink w/ Douglas Coupland. We discuss "The Code of > > the Net" > > >and he is transparent like Victor the Vector getting home > > >& Hector the Protector sent back by the Queen > > >of Wands, who willed her magic to free political sentences > > >and wake us from such dreams. He stayed in to practice > > the cool float of heretocracy he'd read was poles apart from > > pastures > > que j'essuie comme la loi, saisie, monstrueuse > chartreuse et delicieuse but let's get to business and see what' s in that rare air-guitar garage, maybe a tarte du jour or ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 10:37:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: ringing renga In-Reply-To: <302b66c968c5002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> On Fri, 11 Aug 1995, maria damon wrote: > pangborn writes: > > maria damon writes, > > > pangborn writes: > > >> Aha: I thought Dodie might have meant that the offending post portrayed > > >> Russian > > >> caucasians like Trotsky as congenitally unable to keep from exploiting > > > needy > > >> third-world lab technicians, setting up sweatshops despite his professedly > > >> communist political stance. Thanks for setting me straight on that. > > > > > > is this anti-semitic?--md > > > > Yikes--flames smart, and smart flames smart the more smartly. > > > > But no, not anti-semitic except to those who think of semites as a race. > > They're no more so than are Mexicans--which is what I was kidding about > > before Jorge decided, in all sincerity, that he had to spell it all out. > > > > Dig: that irony gets all over everything around here. Like the dude says > > in _The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test_, like, if you mess with it you're gonna > > get some on ya, like, like it or not, dude. > > > > --Jim > > cool, bro, truce, couldn't resist, like, is "caucasian" a race? is there such a > thing as race? and yes, i did sense irony, but that sense was overborne (?) by > that other sense. peace, man--md on race dig The History and Geography of Human Genes by Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Paolo Menozzi and Alberto Piazza, Princeton UniversityPress 1994. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 10:45:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <302b675c6c3b002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> On Fri, 11 Aug 1995, maria damon wrote: > sheila m writes: > > >On Thu, 10 Aug 1995, Louis Cabri wrote: > > > > > >> > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > >> > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > >> > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > >> > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > >> > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > >> > The caravan of windows to what they flee > > >> > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > >> > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > >> > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > >> > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > >> > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > >> > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > >> > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > > >> > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > > >> > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > > >> > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > > >> (inspection > > >> > denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > > >> > pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > > >> > mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > > >> > when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, kook!" > > >Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco warehouse, > > curls > > >no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry > > cleaners > > piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience > the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose encore ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 10:45:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Fred E. Maus" Subject: New list I am starting a new mailing list, collab-mus, for discussion of collaborative music-making that involves improvisation. My own interest centers on relatively recent real-time interactive composition related to post-war avant garde traditions (for instance, Stockhausen's Aus den Seiben Tagen, Oliveros's Sonic Meditations, the Inter/Play sessions of Boretz, Randall, and others), but discussions of interactive improvisation in any kind of music will be appropriate. Contributions to the list could include scores for interactions; reports of experiences as performer or listener; discussions of aesthetic, ethical, and political issues; reports and discussions on analogous collaborative enterprises in media other than sound (for instance, collaborative poetry- writing; MOOing). In keeping with the topic, the list is unmoderated and will take whatever direction its contributors give it. To subscribe to the list, write to . Leave the subject line blank. The message should consist of the command "subscribe collab-mus" followed by your email address. (If you give no address, the return address of the message will be subscribed.) -- Fred Everett Maus Dept phone (804) 924-3052 Department of Music Home phone (804) 974-6039 University of Virginia Fax to dept (804) 924-6033 Charlottesville VA 22903 e-mail fem2x@virginia.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 09:15:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: "marketing strategies" rachel writes: > > > It seems to me that theory, not form, is the real marketing > strategy, in literature at least. In science a theory is > used to test a hypothesis, but in literature theory is used, > far too often, to carry a whole school of writers--the bad > along with the good--into prominence. It is used as an excuse > to stop thinking, to stop reading widely, to circle the > wagons. It is, essentially, fear, in an intellectual form. > Rather than testing a hypothesis, and breaking new ground, > theory in literary hands seems to be used as an instrument of > enforcement, prescribing the sorts of poems (or fictions or > whatever) which are to be written. rachel, it seems to me that anything can be used this way becuz face it, academia is not full of original, intellectually adventurous sorts, and categorization can be used as intellectual shorthand for not dealing with ideas. "theory" is, i think, just a word, when u think of, say, the differences between lacan, deleuze and stuart hall, it seems incongruous that the same word is used to either fetishize or dismiss them. but i agree that labels and categories more often stultify than enable thinking and engagement. i never read the "objectivists" before this summer, when i saw carl rakosi read at naropa and was captivated, because i was put off by the category and terminology of "objectivist" --i thought one had to be really smart to read them, so i never did. > > I was fascinated when someone on this list, looking for the > almost mythical Cap-l, land of the new formalists, said that > what they wanted was (paraphrased) a real snail darter, > McCarthyite, sonnet-writing list (wish I could quote exactly, > it was beautifully expressed). i could tell you a lot about the politics of this list, the cap-l, since many of the originating participants are in my department. mcCarthyite is not, in my view, too strong a term. i'm glad the list has been injected w/ silliman, stroffolino and other people with brains, open minds and reasonable politics, who can rise above the knee-jerk conservatism of some of these folks (many of them boycotted a recent reading by kathleen frazer because they'd heard a rumor that she was a "language poet.") i coujld go on and on, but the whole thing makes me really angry and that's indecorous. > > More questions, asked with affection and respect... > yes, please, keep em coming...--md ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 10:50:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: pardonnez-moi! enfin, c'est la brume de 'traduction'... In-Reply-To: <302b68de752a002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> On Fri, 11 Aug 1995, maria damon wrote: > jorge writes: > > On Thu, 10 Aug 1995, Louis Cabri wrote: > > > > > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > > >And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > > >would calmness be without the stain of possession and > > > >The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > > >Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > > >The caravan of windows to what they flee > > > >These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > > >Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > > >but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > > >Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > > >& opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > > >bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > > >kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > > > >gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > > > >flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > > > >halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > > > > (inspection > > > >prickling with tenors, saving arrogance for free choice, long > > > division > > > >with its equally long aftertaste, or did its overtone > > > >collapse a wild sugar ago the fleet of cabernet oblivions for > > > >outrage. Marketing posture allowed gravel a way home > > > >My dream a drink w/ Douglas Coupland. We discuss "The Code of > > > the Net" > > > >and he is transparent like Victor the Vector getting home > > > >& Hector the Protector sent back by the Queen > > > >of Wands, who willed her magic to free political sentences > > > >and wake us from such dreams. He stayed in to practice > > > the cool float of heretocracy he'd read was poles apart from > > > pastures > > > que j'essuie comme la loi, saisie, monstrueuse > > chartreuse et delicieuse but let's get to business and see what' > s in that rare air-guitar garage, maybe a tarte du jour or a genessee quah genessee cum but je dig tu diges, nous digons! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 08:37:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Renga 11: Invasion from Mars maria damon writes: >ryan k writes: >jerry garcia's >In your dreams >In the books were dreams, and the child woke up & the renga was over. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 08:37:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Padgett's definition > rachel writes: >> And is it the "exoticism" of renga (the non-whiteness of them?) >> that makes them glam enough for us to fool around with, when >> for the most part, we wouldn't be caught dead in the McCarthyite >> "market strategy" of sonnet-writing (Ted Berrigan and others >> notwithstanding)? >> >> Thought I'd ask... >> >> Rachel Loden > >shall i compare thee to a summer's minnesota thundershower? >thought i'd ask...feel free to add on--md That's a haiku, not the first line of a sonnet. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 11:13:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Willa Jarnagin Subject: Favorite swears and Seventies-Speak In-Reply-To: <199508110208.TAA24397@fraser.sfu.ca> On Thu, 10 Aug 1995, Ryan Knighton wrote: > Gee, I suppose swell is too square, eh? I dunno, I'm a seventies child > polluted by eighties lingo. Choice language, for bitchin folk. What > about nifty? Or is that fifties, daddyo? I'm a seventies kid too and find myself using cool, awesome, excellent, and have recently picked up chill, take a pill, well-fuck-me-Jesus (oh, I think I made that one up), fuckwad, fuckhead... and meanwhile constantly weeding my "likes". And remember wicked? Wicked excellent. Also I've taken to refering to myself in my less noble moments as a hosebeast. I suppose Wayne and Garth have influenced my language more than Bernadette Mayer even. That's kind of, like, depressing. Anybody have favorite swears? Preferably offensive to somebody's religion, race, creed, ethnicity, veteran status, disability, gender, or sexual orientation -- just not mine. ;) (Hey, we should invent "smiley" swears.) Figure this one out: **** And now, for serious discussion: what do people think of swears in poetry? Speaking of Bernadette Mayer--I think she uses them beautifully. Wicked Willa the Hosebeast ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 12:10:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: Exquisite Renga In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning would calmness be without the stain of possession and The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection prickling with tenors, saving arrogance for free choice, long division with its equally long aftertaste, or did its overtone collapse a wild sugar ago the fleet of cabernet oblivions for outrage. Marketing posture allowed gravel a way home My dream a drink w/ Douglas Coupland. We discuss "The Code of the Net" and he is transparent like Victor the Vector getting home & Hector the Protector sent back by the Queen of Wands, who willed her magic to free political sentences and wake us from such dreams. He stayed in to practice the cool float of heretocracy he'd read was poles apart from pastures que j'essuie comme la loi, saisie, monstrueuse chartreuse et delicieuse but let's get to business and see what's in that rare air-guitar garage, maybe a tarte du jour or a genessee quah genessee cum but je dig tu diges, nous digons! Qui pleure la, sinon le vent simple, a cette heure ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 12:12:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: jive supplant In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, kook!" Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco warehouse, curls no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry cleaners piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose encore Jive shiva a serpent quiver neigh-dom a mortar ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 12:14:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: among the spoilsports In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, kook!" Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco warehouse, curls no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry cleaners having recovered from the chemicals of deadlines drop stitched into the ball Kevin Mitchell bare handed. Baseball sold out. cash stricken striked. Would that as a poet I had the chance to do something like grace the outfield, hands bare from ringing, washing scales of passion's conformity never minding a green surface, far cry from eternity, kitchen table bleached down, a firecracker cold as the buckles on my sandals as the wesleyans come in the room and hang up their robes and go down to the fellowship hall ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 12:20:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: Padgett's Handbook A note from the publisher: The definition of the renga is from _The Teachers & Writers Handbook of Poetic Forms_, edited by Ron Padgett, $13.95 paper, $22.95 cloth, 230 pp. (+ $3.50 s/h). You can order it from me at Teachers & Writers Collaborative, 5 Union Square West, NY NY 10003. Or you can call (212) 691-6590. Thanks, Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 12:46:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: reading at Biblio's If it's not too e-gauche to post two advertisements the same day, I'd like to invite list-readers in the NY area to a reading on Sunday August 20th at 5 pm, at the Biblios Cafe. Biblios is located on Church Street between Lispenard and Walker (meaning it's around the corner from the Pearl Paint on Canal Street). I'll be reading with my friend Tim Griffin, who writes for the Print Collector's Newsletter and whose play, "Fingerprints", will be staged this fall. Jordan Davis ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 10:01:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: Renga 11: Invasion from Mars In-Reply-To: from "Herb Levy" at Aug 11, 95 08:37:29 am I've never seen a renga quite lik ethis. Every line is competing to be the last. It's the Blob and we're in trouble. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 14:33:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Query In-Reply-To: <01HTX0I7ZTZO8WXSB9@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu> from "Charles Bernstein" at Aug 10, 95 05:47:55 pm Would anybody know how I can get in touch with Forrest gander (phone; address; e-mail)? You can backchannel to me -- I'd hate to innerupt da renga... pierre ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Poems are sketches for existence." Dept. of English | --Paul Celan SUNY Albany | Albany NY 12222 | "Revisionist plots tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | are everywhere and our pronouns haven't yet email: | drawn up plans for the first coup." joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --J.H. Prynne ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 15:03:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: Favorite swears and Seventies-Speak In-Reply-To: My father picked up my mother's family's Polish pieties and used them as swears: "Matka boskiej Czestochowa!" He also coined my all-time favorite swear: "Jesus H. Christ on a fucking life raft!" The all-time great swear in poetry has to be Larkin's "They fuck you up, your mum and dad." Gwyn McVay gmcvay1@osf1.gmu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 12:04:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: Favorite swears and Seventies-Speak In-Reply-To: from "Willa Jarnagin" at Aug 11, 95 11:13:39 am Interesting, since I just said to GB that nobody can swear or say CRAP quite like Sharon Thesen (thinking of her poem to Brian Fawcett: oooh, nasty nasty; love that stuff) There's fine use of bad language in poetry. I mean, I didn't know whang had an h in it. Learn somethin everyday. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 15:16:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Query In-Reply-To: <01HTX0I7ZTZO8WXSB9@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu> from "Charles Bernstein" at Aug 10, 95 05:47:55 pm Thanks to everyone for quickly getting back with Gander's address -- at times the net works better than dialing 5551212 ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Poems are sketches for existence." Dept. of English | --Paul Celan SUNY Albany | Albany NY 12222 | "Revisionist plots tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | are everywhere and our pronouns haven't yet email: | drawn up plans for the first coup." joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --J.H. Prynne ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 15:29:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: "marketing strategies" dear rachel loden--thanks for your thoughtful response to herb levy about the cliquishness---whether or not the CAp-L people are McCarthyites I think must be an oversimplification--I catch myself speaking of "formally conservative poets" as conservatives, and am glad I have a couple of AWP-type friends. Of course, the "left",("this list we're on", whatever....) does tend to elide the difference between the more working class Levine types and the more James Merrill types --and I think there should be more dialogue between "various factions" rather than the balkanized inbreeding of any clique--and though i myself have not written "sonnets" since I tried some puerile ones long ago--I am definitely open to discussion of them--There does seem to be an abiding distate of anything that seems "conservative." I mean, even Phillip Larkin (WHO HATED JAZZ and was politically conservative) in his poems at times seems to speak from a leftist perspective--or could be read as such---furthermore, there is something VERY GENERATIVE in his work that it seems ridiculous for someone to deny on ostensibly "political" grounds--It seems many readers are so queasy about "the great tradition" as if the mere act of reading a fascist (oh, an dissertations on Yeats "fascist metrics" abound) WILL MAKE YOU (i mean ONE) a fascist.... And maybe Rachel (though your question was probably rhetorical) the reason you learned something from the Corn-Silliman debate was because it was NOT as claustrophobic as the little "divided left" debates that occur here (the L poets vs. the M--remember that one!)--I hope for more of such--so thank you, Chris Stroffolino ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 16:11:12 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: vacation Fellow Interscriputors: I am going on vacation and am signing off the list for a while; i can be reached backchannel (replies may be tardy). Burt Kimmelman kimmelman@admin.njit.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 00:45:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: [DAMONG THE SPOILSPORTS In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, kook!" Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco warehouse, curls no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry cleaners having recovered from the chemicals of deadlines drop stitched into the ball Kevin Mitchell bare handed. Baseball sold out. cash stricken striked. Would that as a poet I had the chance to do something like grace the outfield, hands bare from ringing, washing scales of passion's conformity never minding a green surface, far cry from eternity, kitchen table bleached down, a firecracker cold as the buckles on my sandals as the wesleyans come in the room and hang up their robes and go down to the fellowship hall McCarthy Birchbark sonnets screeched on blackboards and smeared the vanished. Poetry not written down Unwritten words do not cringe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 02:18:48 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: swearing et al Gwynn, I agree with Raworth that the original read 'They tuck you up, your mum and dad' but a friend riffed off it and he went with the better version (either that or it was typo and he kept it in at the proofing stage) - anyway, what price origination? lingalongarenga cris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 21:50:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lindz Williamson Subject: beardsley In-Reply-To: <199508111916.PAA02377@loki.hum.albany.edu> I'm looking for stuff on Aubrey Beardsley, anybody know of any good sources? I wnat background stuff and a collection of his works. SOf ar I can only find The Gallatin Collection published in 1952 by Princeston. thanks, Lindz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 21:37:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: "Mexicans aren't a race." But who is? In-Reply-To: <199508110755.AAA23620@sparta.SJSU.EDU> Africans aren't a race either, but that doesn't prevent people from making racist remarks about them -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 21:36:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: POETICS Digest In-Reply-To: <199508110755.AAA23620@sparta.SJSU.EDU> who is responsible for these guitar rumors? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 21:39:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Renga 11: Invasion from Mars Ryan Knighton writes >I've never seen a renga quite lik ethis. Every line is >competing to be the last. It's the Blob and we're in >trouble. Unless godzilla arranges renga to save TomBell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 23:22:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian W Horihan Subject: microcosmic slang In-Reply-To: <199508111916.PAA02377@loki.hum.albany.edu> This talk about seventies-speak got me remembering those strange words kids on my block used before we were brave enough, and before the disintegration of "the block" led us, to use the real swear words. The only one i can think of now that was exclusive to our street was "gary," an adjective or noun meaning something like "awkward, square, feeble," that was meant to deride, e.g., "shut up, you gary" or "you're so gary, get out of here." It had no etymology, really, b/c no one named gary lived anywhere near us. (apologies to all garys on the list.) --brian nowdays, however, my favorite interjection is jesus-shit. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 21:14:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: JG others and us Headlines in papers here in Nashville indicated that his passing was the end of an era. I'm not sure this is so and his loss might be the ashes (or grave - interesting although morbid question Do Grateful Dead prefer cremation) from which the Phoenix will rise and rekincle some of the spirit or soul of that time. Tom Bell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 16:41:37 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: not a job announcement In-Reply-To: To all: The creative writing program at the University of Hawai'i does not advertise for its Visiting Distinguished Writers (as they are called), but it is possible to express interest in being one by writing to Prof. Robbie Shapard, Dept of English, 1733 Donaghho Road, U of Hawai'i, Honolulu, HI 96822. The positions are for one semester, and I have no idea what they pay (the going rate, I suspect). Because the process has been so mysterious, the writers have tended to be of a kind, which hasn't been so much a bad thing, as a predictable one. I, for one, would love to see people on this list apply. If anyone wants more information, I can muster it up. Susan Schultz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 19:44:20 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, kook!" Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco warehouse, curls no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry cleaners having recovered from the chemicals of deadlines drop stitched into the ball Kevin Mitchell bare handed. Baseball sold out. cash stricken striked. Would that as a poet I had the chance to do something like grace the outfield, hands bare from ringing, washing scales of passion's conformity never minding a green surface, far cry from eternity, kitchen table bleached down, a firecracker cold as the buckles on my sandals as the wesleyans come in the room and hang up their robes and go down to the fellowship hall the garcia posological convention already underway platform sonneteers reminisce those hash oil crisis years when every squib seemed damp & colon slack: get real, ya doofuses, the Blob is back ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 17:49:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: ringing renga >maria damon writes, >> pangborn writes: >> pangborn writes: >> Russian caucasians like Trotsky as congenitally unable to >> keep from exploiting needy third-world lab technicians, >> setting up sweatshops despite his professedly >> communist political stance. Thanks for setting me straight on that. > > is this anti-semitic?--md >Yikes--flames smart, and smart flames smart the more smartly. >But no, not anti-semitic except to those who think of semites >>as a race. >>They're no more so than are Mexicans--which is what I was kidding >>about before Jorge decided, in all sincerity, that he had to >>spell it all out. >>Dig: that irony gets all over everything around here. >>Like the dude says in _The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test_, >>like, if you mess with it you're gonna >>get some on ya, like, like it or not, dude. >>--Jim And back to: In the books were dreams and in the life there was a book ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 20:46:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: Favorite swears and Seventies-Speak re Larkin's "They fuck you up" -- Raworth has comment on that in the _Exact Change Annual_ which reads ". . . the terrible drabness of Larkin (whom I imagine wrote "They tuck you up/your mum and dad" then rode the wave of a typo)." not seventies, but a recent citing, Padgett seems to be getting mentioned alot, in his memoir _Ted_ he mentions "freaked his gobble" as in "Man, I freaked her gobble!" a W.Va. bit I like is "Holy Mackeral Andy!" as an expression of pleasant surprise. Another one is "Heck-A-Fire-Wiz!" -- the "meaning" of that one is not exactly clear. But, I have to say nothing yet touches the aforementioned "Well fuck me Jesus." --Rod ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 19:57:49 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden <74277.1477@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: theory (for Maria D) Dear Maria, Yes, you're right, I did overstate my case on theory in the snit of the moment. There is some pleasure in it, in the right hands: things sifted, brought to light... Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 16:58:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Reginald Johanson Subject: Favourite swears and Seventies I heard one last night while listening to Ani Difranco: it's my faviourite now and I intend to use it often: "Fuck you very mich." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 15:38:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: West Coast Line In-Reply-To: <00994B8D.8AAC6B40.1@admin.njit.edu> from "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" at Aug 11, 95 04:11:12 pm This is an embarrassed message to Mark Wallace, and this is the reason why I am using the open net. Mark, I have, oh this is hard to believe, lost your address AGAIN. I have turned the whole house upside down, even looking thru books and bookmarks. The mag is out, and there's a copy and a cheque waiting to be sent to you. It is a beaut of an issue. If yr on here, please forgive me and send address again. I can be backchannelled at Bowering@sfu.ca By the way, if Mark aint on here, can somebody send me an address? By the way, this issue of *West Coast Line* has a nifty 14-pp poem by Steve Mccaffery in it. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 15:21:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: your mail >On Fri, 11 Aug 1995, maria damon wrote: > >> sheila m writes: >> > >On Thu, 10 Aug 1995, Louis Cabri wrote: >> > > >> > >> > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> > >> > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> > >> > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> > >> > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> > >> > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> > >> > The caravan of windows to what they flee >> > >> > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> > >> > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> > >> > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> > >> > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> > >> > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> > >> > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >> > >> > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >> > >> > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >> > >> > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >> > >> > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance >> > >> (inspection >> > >> > denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing >> > >> > pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several >> > >> > mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango >> > >> > when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, kook!" >> > >Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco warehouse, >> > curls >> > >no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry >> > cleaners >> > piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience >> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers > the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose encore Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments to be ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 16:40:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Favorite swears and Seventies-Speak > > The all-time great swear in poetry has to be Larkin's "They fuck you up, > your mum and dad." > > Gwyn McVay > gmcvay1@osf1.gmu.edu or john lennon, "they're still fuckin' peasants as far as I can see." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 16:39:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Favorite swears and Seventies-Speak my favorite expressions actually pertain to mental illness, such as, the lights are on but nobody's home; she's a few fries short of a happy meal, so and so's round the bend, lost her marbles, off to the funny farm hurry let's go, friggin' in the riggin', a total fruitcake/nutcase, etc. i know there're other favorites i'm forgetting right now. i'd love to expand my repertoire. i dont know why i find them so amusing. maybe cuz it's a "heavy subject." also for death: so and so cashed in his chips, bit the dust, kicked, etc. One of the expressions that my father used for food --"shit on a shingle" --meaning, i think, corned beef hash on toast, has been adopted by me as a "swear." what is a swear, anyway? obscenity? language defaming religious figures or beliefs? both? in the 70s when we didn't like something, we'd say it "sucks moose." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 16:31:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Favorite swears and Seventies-Speak willa the j writes: > On Thu, 10 Aug 1995, Ryan Knighton wrote: > > > Gee, I suppose swell is too square, eh? I dunno, I'm a seventies child > > polluted by eighties lingo. Choice language, for bitchin folk. What > > about nifty? Or is that fifties, daddyo? > > I'm a seventies kid too and find myself using cool, awesome, excellent, > and have recently picked up chill, take a pill, well-fuck-me-Jesus (oh, I > think I made that one up), fuckwad, fuckhead... and meanwhile constantly > weeding my "likes". And remember wicked? Wicked excellent. Also I've > taken to refering to myself in my less noble moments as a hosebeast. I > suppose Wayne and Garth have influenced my language more than Bernadette > Mayer even. > > That's kind of, like, depressing. > > Anybody have favorite swears? Preferably offensive to somebody's > religion, race, creed, ethnicity, veteran status, disability, gender, or > sexual orientation -- just not mine. > > ;) > > (Hey, we should invent "smiley" swears.) Figure this one out: **** > > And now, for serious discussion: what do people think of swears in poetry? > Speaking of Bernadette Mayer--I think she uses them beautifully. > > > Wicked Willa the Hosebeast does anyone else from boston remember the laudatory adjective "pissa"? as in, that's a wicked pissa shirt, man. when i taught at the full circle high school i overheard a writing teacher trying to get this one kid to use adjectives other than "good" to describe the way a band played. the kid wrote, saying it aloud as he did in that questioning voice people use when trying to supply synonyms, "they played wicked pissa." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 16:30:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Padgett's definition herb writes: > > rachel writes: > >> And is it the "exoticism" of renga (the non-whiteness of them?) > >> that makes them glam enough for us to fool around with, when > >> for the most part, we wouldn't be caught dead in the McCarthyite > >> "market strategy" of sonnet-writing (Ted Berrigan and others > >> notwithstanding)? > >> > >> Thought I'd ask... > >> > >> Rachel Loden > > > >shall i compare thee to a summer's minnesota thundershower? > >thought i'd ask...feel free to add on--md > > That's a haiku, not the first line of a sonnet. > > > > Herb Levy > herb@eskimo.com so sue me. i lie corrected.--md ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 07:14:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: "marketing strategies," CAP-L, & the gap (mind it or lose it) Rachel Loden wrote: >First, could you define "marketing strategy"? How does it >differ from style, say, or any other honey we use, as writers, >to catch flies? If I recall correctly, "marketing strategy" is a rather flip phrase used in a hastily written post to POETICS, used to imply a particularly self-conscious use of a particular range of earlier styles. But you're right, it isn't much different from style. Though in the context of you later statement (about theory, rather than form, being the real marketing strategy in literature, which seems true in many ways), this kind of appropriation of "classical" styles _is_ as much more about theory than it is about form. It just that the theory involved states that forms with enough past history communicate transparently, but that these forms are solid enough to hide the rest of the theory behind them. >I was fascinated when someone on this list, looking for the >almost mythical Cap-l, land of the new formalists, said that >what they wanted was (paraphrased) a real snail darter, >McCarthyite, sonnet-writing list (wish I could quote exactly, >it was beautifully expressed). I've always thought of CAP-L as more of an often neglected (literal, not a BBS) bulletin board in a hallway lined by faculty office with the doors closed, except for the few, very rare, attempts at conversation. In any case, there really don't seem to be a very high percentage of active "new formalists" posting there. Of course, CAP-L is generally quite low volume (especially compared to POETICS, even discounting all of the renga lines, which must be deeply discounted indeed), so it's hard to say who really is there. CAP-L will be good for a few messages as soon as the next "famous" "mainstream" poet dies, or the next "big awards" are announced. If CAP-L were any less inactive, I might remember to unsubscribe, but now that you remind me, where _did_ I put my copy of the listserv refcard? >In fact, the >most interesting thing that did happen on Cap-l, before its >apparent demise, was a dialogue between Ron Silliman and >Alfred Corn on "parallel traditions" in which I learned vastly >more about Silliman's work than I ever have on POETICS. Why >might that be? If this is still directed at me, you're, obviously, asking the wrong person, but I'm willing to make some brief comments. First, if CAP-L is like a neglected faculty bulletin board, POETICS is more like a bar frequented by people who know a lot about writing within the tradition of poetic innovation (which is probably why Ron Silliman doesn't feel he has to explain his work, or the tradition it comes out of, here). Second, in some ways, the Silliman/Corn exchange was an example of theory as marketing strategy. Ron Silliman made a very good, best-case description of the tradition of poetic innovation in the context of a group of people who don't seem to question the more staid Norton anthologies very much, though they don't seem to have noticed the more recent, and more diverse, additions to the Norton family of blunt implements. (Talk about marketing strategies as cynicism, but that's a different discussion.) If the Silliman/Corn dialogue got one more faculty member to consider taking a left turn after Lowell or Plath, it was worth it. But note that forays onto CAP-L by folks from POETICS (at least those since last winter) have invariably ended when someone on CAP-L says "okay, you've made your point about what some of the problems with OUR stuff are, can you give an example of an inferior work in the "parallel tradition," so that we have some kind of idea 0f how YOUR aesthetics operate." So far no one from POETICS has been willing to say "yeah, here's something that was published in Origin (or Acts, or Aerial, or Alcheringa, or Avec, to go through some of the more recent journals on the shelf behind me) & it is really, really bad." This leads into what may be a third comment, or at least a kind of meta-comment on POETICS. In exchange for the high level of camaraderie (and the apparently related high degree of renga) available on POETICS, there's a perhaps understandable unwillingness to dig too deeply into any of the stylisitic, theoretical, or formal differences that separate POETICS' various denizens. We don't all appreciate the same works equally, or for the same reasons, on (or off) POETICS, even though we often act as if we do. A few months ago someone missed the sarcasm (few smileys are seen here at POETICS, I'm happy to say) when I posited the term "the kind of poetry we're all interested in" as a definition of the kind of poetry we're all interested in. Now, negative definition is a powerful means of bonding a group. But, just because "none of us" are "really" "CAP-L," whatever any of that may mean, doesn't mean we're all the same. To go back to CAP-L example you raised (*example alert*: one could fill in just about any writer's name where I have, in this instance, used the term "Ron Silliman" and the meaning of this sentence would not change), not everyone here likes, or even knows, Ron Silliman's work. In some ways it would be helpful for there to be a more detailed discourse on any specific writer on POETICS. So go ahead & start with whoever you like. "Mind the gap." The differences on POETICS (even unacknowledged) are a good part of what keeps us together. That, and a tremendous fear of completing a sentence in a neo/non-tradtional renga. At least until the next issue of Apex of the M (&, uh, except for Aram Saroyan's, which had 3, and may not really have been an "M" anyway, doesn't every "M" have two apexes?) comes out. But few of the distinctions that came out in that earlier discussion were clear (though they were much belabored), and the clearest distinctions pertained to (the often execrable) editorial politics rather than poetics. I'm not suggesting that people start badmouthing each other on (or off) POETICS, just calling attention to some of the unacknowledged limitations of having such a happy, renga-loving community "here." Bests, Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 11:08:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: The List Itself For the second time this week, but only for the third time in the history of the list, there were over 50 messages posted to Poetics on Friday. When this happens the list locks itself automatically, and Listserv sends me a message that I have to unlock it by sending out an unlock message. At 10am this morning I did this and something like 30 messages that had been held were released. I think 50 is a reasonable upper limit for daily messages. But as I am not online every day, especially during the summer, there is a potential problem here. As many of you know, if you change your user ID you also need to unsub to Poetics under the old name and resub under the new name or you will not be able to send posts. If you have a problem with this send me a message with the old address and I can delete it manually. You should be able to resub yourself with the new address without problem. If you are having any problem with your account, or our nearing the disk quota, please unsub yourself. I get hundreds of bounced Poetics messages a week from servers that have can't deliver a Poetics message and these are, to say the least, a nuisance. The worst instance of this was some mad recycling of bounced messages from one subscriber's system last week, to the tune of 3000 error messages a day for a couple of days, effectively closing my own e- mail account down. Subscribers who bounce messages are removed from the Poetics list so if this happens, once you've solved the problems that caused the messages to bounce, just resub yourself. All of this reminds me of my commitment to keep the scale of this list on the smaller side, not only because I am committed to small-scale exchanges but also because this particular list is not set up -- _I'm not set up!_ -- to handle more volume than we've now got. I have noted before that sheer volume on a list has as much of a tendency to exclude, by effectively preventing participation by those unable to sort through the volume, as more explicit means of limiting subscription. For some using sophisticated software, or indeed having easier access to the net, sorting through this volume may be less a problem than it is for, I suspect, many Poetics subscribers. This is all changing very quickly. My hope is that with the Eisnerization of the net, we have some basic alternative sites, EPC and Poetics are two models, firmly in place. But I certainly don't have the answers and see Poetics as only one of many possible formats for listserve poetry discussion groups. I often feel that the time I spend on list maintenance actually keeps me from posting more, but this is, for now, my principal method of participation. Charles Bernstein ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 11:43:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Scheil Subject: Re: Favorite swears and Seventies-Speak In-Reply-To: A few choice swears from the bookstore where I work. We make it a point of honor to come up with a couple of new epitaths a week. Heres a crop in current circulation: 1. pizzle-head origin unknown, but probably a derivational coinage from pissant, a word which my boss used once, to the great hilarity of the staff) 2. monkey boy from _Buckaroo Banzai_, a secret slack-generation film classic) 3. hapless catamite coined by a gay friend to describe someone so obsessed with his sexuality that he is unable to carry on a conversation about anything else except "is X gay or straight?" 4. skanky wheezer all variants now in some disfavor, as "skank" is skank-meister currently considered to be a somewhat recherche term. Roi du Skank Also, we are currently experiencing a revival of Ska, and many afficanodos object to the perjorative detournemant of what they consider a positive word.) 5.hungry-monkey a term coined by Salem--a former Marine--who traces this phrase to his stint in the Phillipines during the Mt. Pinatubo eruption. One of his tasks at the time was to hunt down & shoot gangs of crazed monkeys who would invade the base in search of cast-off MREs(Meals-Ready to Eat--basically, Military TV dinners), & often fight pitched battles against each other with rocks & anything else they could throw.) 6. Mr. Weasel accompanied by the lip-smacking & sucking sounds that this minor Warner Brothers cartoon figure made whenever in the presence of food. Used to describe a lecher or anyone whose demeanor at any time betrays an immodestly excessive interest in the physical attributes or amorous potential of another.) 7. Christ on a bike! (a ejaculatory term of amazement. My college friend Pat says that this is an common phrase from the Michigan UP, though I've never heard anyone but my co-workers say it.) 8. Pendejocito a variation from the classic by my roomate Hugo to describe someone whose calumny was either unintentional or insufficiently offensive to warrant the full word) 8. Driver of the gravy train (a perjorative term for either an excessive optimist or someone whose delight threatens to overwhelm the dour mood of another. From _The Ruling Class_, a wonderful British movie about a delusional fellow who shifts in personality from Jesus Christ to Jack the Ripper.) Also, a common death phrase: "there ain't enough left of him/her to spread on toast." (said of someone either long or violently dead.) And as is customary at the bkstore, I'll end with a common phrase of departure: Screw You! Click. (then imitate the sound of a dead telephone line.) Chris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 09:22:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: West Coast Line >This is an embarrassed message to Mark Wallace, and this is the >reason why I am using the open net. Mark, I have, oh this is hard to >believe, lost your address AGAIN. I have turned the whole house >upside down, even looking thru books and bookmarks. > >The mag is out, and there's a copy and a cheque waiting to be sent to >you. It is a beaut of an issue. If yr on here, please forgive me and >send address again. I can be backchannelled at > >Bowering@sfu.ca > >By the way, if Mark aint on here, can somebody send me an address? > >By the way, this issue of *West Coast Line* has a nifty 14-pp poem by >Steve Mccaffery in it. By the way, George, is that the only thing of interest in the new West Coast Line? Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 11:21:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: "Mexicans aren't a race." But who is? aldon writes: > Africans aren't a race either, but that doesn't prevent people from > making racist remarks about them -- yes, plus, the fact that "semites" aren't a race doesn't mean it's not possible to degrade them as a group --hence the word "anti-semitic"--md ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 09:22:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Favorite swears and Seventies-Speak > >does anyone else from boston remember the laudatory adjective "pissa"? as in, >that's a wicked pissa shirt, man. when i taught at the full circle high school >i overheard a writing teacher trying to get this one kid to use adjectives >other >than "good" to describe the way a band played. the kid wrote, saying it aloud >as he did in that questioning voice people use when trying to supply synonyms, >"they played wicked pissa." Holy shit, I haven't thought of that in years. Thanks, Maria. Kids really still say that? Amazing. I'd always thought to spell it "pisser," though. & I wouldn't spell the island 90 miles south of Florida "Cuber," either. Bests Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 12:45:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <199508112221.PAA21606@bob.indirect.com> On Fri, 11 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >On Fri, 11 Aug 1995, maria damon wrote: > > > >> sheila m writes: > >> > >On Thu, 10 Aug 1995, Louis Cabri wrote: > >> > > > >> > >> > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> > >> > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> > >> > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> > >> > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> > >> > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> > >> > The caravan of windows to what they flee > >> > >> > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >> > >> > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >> > >> > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >> > >> > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >> > >> > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >> > >> > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >> > >> > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >> > >> > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >> > >> > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > >> > >> > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > >> > >> (inspection > >> > >> > denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > >> > >> > pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > >> > >> > mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > >> > >> > when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, kook!" > >> > >Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco warehouse, > >> > curls > >> > >no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry > >> > cleaners > >> > piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience > >> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers > > the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose encore > Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments to be of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were hooks. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 13:48:00 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Beaudoin Subject: Re: The List Itself When I looked up, Charles Bernstein had writ large across my screen: (snip) >the list, there were over 50 messages posted to Poetics on Friday. When this >happens the list locks itself automatically, and Listserv sends me a message >that I have to unlock it by sending out an unlock message. At 10am this >morning I did this and something like 30 messages that had been held were >released. (snip) >All of this reminds me of my commitment to keep the scale of this list on the >smaller side, not only because I am committed to small-scale exchanges but >also because this particular list is not set up -- _I'm not set up!_ -- to >handle more volume than we've now got. I have noted before that sheer volume >on a list has as much of a tendency to exclude, by effectively preventing >participation by those unable to sort through the volume, as more explicit >means of limiting subscription. Tho newish to list, I am in sympathy with yr post, especially the 'little red hen' syndrome. Frankly I expected more meat and less filler, especially the renga party line. Perhaps a Renga list is in order. David, crankywithrenganoodlingclogginguphismailclient ~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~. David Beaudouin in cybercomm@charm.net Baltimore, Maryland tropos@charm.net hon! vox/fax: 410.467.0600 ~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 17:45:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: "marketing strategies" In-Reply-To: <01HTY9KARH8I8WWMC6@ALBNYVMS.BITNET> Chris Stroffolino-- curious--what's an AWP type? Can you spot one on sight? Can you assume anyone at the AWP conference is an AWP type? Gwyn McVay gmcvay1@osf1.gmu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 17:54:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: swearing et al In-Reply-To: <9508120211.aa22500@post.demon.co.uk> Cris, I thought that somebody in the London or New York or one of the famous stodgy reviews of books alleged that the line originally read "They do you harm, your father and mother" until Larkin's editor convinced him to be a bit more pungent. Gwyn ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 18:24:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: "marketing strategies" Gwyn McVay-- Thanks for calling me on "AWP type"--I mean people who frequent AWP conferences, people who when we talk about poets tend to mention Joy Harjo alot (for instance)--of course my two good friends who went to last AWP both complained about the fact that most "poets" there tended to look like lawyers too much--it isn't that I can "spot one on sight" nor that the boundaries are absolutely rigid (for, I may try to go the next one myself---though with the wish to "make it more interesting" which usually means "subvert it" but that's true in ANY scene, isn't it?)--Well, I guess i could be more specifc....Were YOU at the last AWP conference? Could you share with us your AWP experiences? chris s. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 18:55:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: "marketing strategies" In-Reply-To: <01HTZU44YO1E8Y56M2@ALBNYVMS.BITNET> Chris S.-- The "AWP experiences" I've had are too much of a long, strange trip to recount here, since (I admit this now, before everyone, so there are no illusions) I work for them as an editor on the _Chronicle_. I actually did feel like I knew what you meant by "AWP type," since I deal with a lot of them on the phone--poets for whom the kindest possible adjective is "mid-list." Yet Carolyn Forche' is on the Board of Directors, and she routinely assigns her classes things like the great big Sun & Moon anthology, Dragomoschenko, Hejinian, etc. as readings. Go figure. So I DO think there is such a thing as a spottable AWP type, but then you have Forche', and my boss is all ga-ga about this article we just got from Clayton Eshleman. And we have an interview with Anne Waldman ready to go to press. So you never know. Gwyn ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 18:37:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: "marketing strategies" cstroff writes: > Gwyn McVay-- > Thanks for calling me on "AWP type"--I mean people who frequent AWP > conferences, people who when we talk about poets tend to mention > Joy Harjo alot (for instance)--of course my two good friends who > went to last AWP both complained about the fact that most "poets" > there tended to look like lawyers too much--it isn't that I can > "spot one on sight" nor that the boundaries are absolutely rigid > (for, I may try to go the next one myself---though with the wish > to "make it more interesting" which usually means "subvert it" > but that's true in ANY scene, isn't it?)--Well, I guess i could > be more specifc....Were YOU at the last AWP conference? Could you > share with us your AWP experiences? chris s. one way to subvert, it seems, might be to sound yr BARBARIC AWP across the conference-room rooftops --(not?) --md ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 18:41:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: "marketing strategies" gwyn writes: > Chris S.-- > > The "AWP experiences" I've had are too much of a long, strange trip to > recount here, since (I admit this now, before everyone, so there are no > illusions) I work for them as an editor on the _Chronicle_. I actually > did feel like I knew what you meant by "AWP type," since I deal with a > lot of them on the phone--poets for whom the kindest possible adjective > is "mid-list." Yet Carolyn Forche' is on the Board of Directors, and she > routinely assigns her classes things like the great big Sun & Moon > anthology, Dragomoschenko, Hejinian, etc. as readings. Go figure. So I DO > think there is such a thing as a spottable AWP type, but then you have > Forche', and my boss is all ga-ga about this article we just got from > Clayton Eshleman. And we have an interview with Anne Waldman ready to go > to press. So you never know. > > Gwyn yeah, you know, i think it's too easy to make assumptions that people who have a certain style and orientation in their own writing are hostile or unconscious to/of others' rather than appreciative --and of course, as in the cap-l list and in my dept it's sometimes true --but, for example, my writing has never treated the "language" poets or oral-tradition poets (w/ possible exception of antin and kaufman), but i dig them the mostest. --md ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 20:16:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: Favorite swears and Seventies-Speak In-Reply-To: <950811204654_72363742@aol.com> from "Rod Smith" at Aug 11, 95 08:46:55 pm When my mother was six, she was quoted for sying "Poo bugger bum shit" at the top of the stairs. Aleatory at six at the top of the stairs. When i was fiftenn and visiting Toronto, my cousins used "freak on my melon", as in " hey dad, don't freak on my melon". I moved home to Vancouver after a coupla weeks. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 23:04:47 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: "marketing strategies" On Sat, 12 Aug 1995 18:24:13 -0400, Chris Stroffolino wrote: > Thanks for calling me on "AWP type"--I mean people who frequent AWP > conferences, people who when we talk about poets tend to mention > Joy Harjo alot (for instance) Joy's OK. People in the southwest mention her a lot, whether they are AWP types or not. Have you heard her with band, Poetic Justice? Not really my cup of tea, but she's a friend, and I hate to see her used as an icon in this way. But then I guess we're all fair game. charles alexander ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 01:29:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: "marketing strategies" Thanks to Herb, Maria, Gwyn and Charles for there insights on "AWP" of course--if we want to prevent this discussion from lapsing into mere abstractions concerning "balance" and "reconciliation" (to export Coleridge's terms on "organic form") of poet factions, the issue is not just whether Forche is okay and acceptable because she teaches SUN & MOON people, but the challenges such an aesthetic these poets (i should say "these poets" because my formulation is, OF COURSE, vague at present) practice may raise and/or pose... LIKE AWP, APR has shown an openness to certain avant-gardists-- Schwerner, Howe (though i don't think Fanny), Scalapino, and Shapiro have all been on cover, and someone once told me of Duncan's double standard (It's okay if *I* read beryyman, but young poets shouldn't) and I am reminded of Ashbery's assertion of O'hara as "too straight for the hips and too hip for the straights"--and perhaps I am just speaking about a fruitiful (fructifying?) aporia that exists in the MAPPING of any sense of poetry---If there are "two kinds of people"--those who prefer to work within what may be called a single style, or ideology, and whose sense of "community" becomes rigidified (either because of "early success" or because of "habit, the great deadener" or because of genuine commitment a la Watten's "my imagination locked into place during the vietnam war") and, on the other hand, those who prefer "the freedom of the poet" despite all the ideological markers that always reinscribe a certain "stance", can we say that these "two types of poets" exist in each of us, in a way LIKE CHARACTERS (as, for instance, the debate in Perelman's FIRST WORLD between "leftwing playgrounds" and "rightwing communic- ation centers"---I don't have the book handy now, that's a paraphrase)-- and that "difference between" can't help but be "difference within?" And what good would such a distinction make? Well, I think it would encourage at least a certain re-opening to things one may have dismissed out of fear of being swamped by infinity.... For I witnessed a panel discussion with Creeley and Forche on it (I've written about it elsewhere if anyone wants a copy) last fall and found myself often siding with Forche against Creeley--- just as I find sometimes the "personal anecdote" of a James Tate more valuable by being put in dialogue with, say, Harryman or others. To find connections where they are not often said to be probably also implies its inverse (that "claims of lineage" are often done for ingenuous reasons)....okay, enough---- chris stroffolino ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 22:53:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: your mail >On Fri, 11 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >> >On Fri, 11 Aug 1995, maria damon wrote: >> > >> >> sheila m writes: >> >> > >On Thu, 10 Aug 1995, Louis Cabri wrote: >> >> > > >> >> > >> > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> >> > >> > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> >> > >> > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> >> > >> > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> >> > >> > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> >> > >> > The caravan of windows to what they flee >> >> > >> > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> >> > >> > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> >> > >> > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> >> > >> > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> >> > >> > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> >> > >> > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >> >> > >> > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >> >> > >> > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >> >> > >> > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >> >> > >> > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance >> >> > >> (inspection >> >> > >> > denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing >> >> > >> > pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several >> >> > >> > mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango >> >> > >> > when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, kook >!" >> >> > >Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco warehouse, >> >> > curls >> >> > >no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry >> >> > cleaners >> >> > piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience >> >> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers >> > the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose encore >> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments to be > of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were hooks. All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of darkness ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 00:58:42 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: your mail On Sat, 12 Aug 1995 22:53:48 -0700, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: >>On Fri, 11 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: >> >>> >On Fri, 11 Aug 1995, maria damon wrote: >>> > >>> >> sheila m writes: >>> >> > >On Thu, 10 Aug 1995, Louis Cabri wrote: >>> >> > > >>> >> > >> > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >>> >> > >> > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >>> >> > >> > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >>> >> > >> > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >>> >> > >> > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >>> >> > >> > The caravan of windows to what they flee >>> >> > >> > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >>> >> > >> > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >>> >> > >> > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >>> >> > >> > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >>> >> > >> > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >>> >> > >> > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >>> >> > >> > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >>> >> > >> > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >>> >> > >> > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >>> >> > >> > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance >>> >> > >> (inspection >>> >> > >> > denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing >>> >> > >> > pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several >>> >> > >> > mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango >>> >> > >> > when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, >kook >>!" >>> >> > >Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco warehouse, >>> >> > curls >>> >> > >no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry >>> >> > cleaners >>> >> > piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience >>> >> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers >>> > the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose encore >>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments to be >> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were hooks. >All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of darkness composed with fetching strands, forwarding replies to deletion's aviary. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 00:18:41 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Appeal for international solidality (fwd) In the aftermath of the June 4th commemmoration, the April Fifth Action, Hong Kong, would like to make an appeal to the international community to denounce the assaults made by the Chinese Government against political activists, especially the workers, in China. The activists in China have put up a beroic fight in the last couple of months. There have been workers protests, petitions and press conferences. These are signs that the Chinese Democracy Movement has made important progress since the June 4th crackdown six years ago. Because of this, the Chinese Government has stepped up its repressions, for fear that the Movement might present a serious threat when social discontent and unrest have been building up for the last two to three years. Dozens of organisers have already been arrested in the past few months, among whom are Wei Jin-sang, Wong Dan, Lau Nin-chun and Chan Chi-ming, just to name a few prominent ones. The Chinese Government has been especially brutal to workers who organise union activities. Three workers in Shencheng, just across the border of Hong Kong, were arrested last year for organising unions and distributing handbills. Unconfirmed reports said that they were sentenced to long prison terms. Here are some information about the 3 organizers arrested in ShenZeng: 1. Li Wen-ming and Kuo Le-zhuang, Male, Han race, both from Hunan Province (in the middle of China, along the Yangtze River), about 27 years old. 2. Li was trained at a Hunan technical college (not sure which department). In his school years, he had already participated in the local student movement. After his graduation, he was assigned to a factory to work. In 1991, he resigned and went to ShenZeng and got a job as the public relation officer of the magazine "Youth of ShenZeng". At the end of 92, he went to Beijing University to study and associated with democracy activists there. 3. Kuo Le-zhuang studied in the Shanghai Transport University and was active in the student movement, bding a student leader of the university during the 86-87 student unrest. In a meeting with the then Shanghai Mayor, Jiang Zemin (now the President of china), Kuo critized Jiang harshly and thus won the respect of the students. When the student unrest was over, he was dismissed and went back to the countryside. In 1993, Li Wen-ming invited him to go to ShenZeng to do organizing work. 4. In June, 1993, Li and Kuo initiated a program to educate the workers about the poor labour conditions in the numerous factories in ShenZeng. In August, they started a Workers' Evening School, which attracted hundreds of workers to attend the courses. Then they planned to establish an independent trade union called the "Union of Labourers". (In China, independent trade unions are not allowed. There is only one union-the Official Trade Union controlled by the CCP). 5. In September, 1993, the ShenZeng Public Security Bureau took away some documents from their office. In October, under pressure from the PSB, they fled to Beijing. Then at the beginning of 94, both of them came back to start again.. 6. In April, 1994, the PSB arrested them. To date, they are still detained incommunicado, with no charges pressed against them. 7. There are about a dozen core activists involved in the project. Two of them are Guo Bao-sheng, a student of the Chinese Poeple's University (Beijing) and Li Ming-qi of Beijing University. Both were dismissed for political reasons (that means they deviated from the party line and harboured 'libral' ideas). Guo was arrested at the same time with Li and Kuo while Li Ming-qi's whereabout has been unknown from then. **************************************************************************** ************ We appeal to you all to send protest messages to the Chinese Government to demand for the release of these activists who had done nothing but to exercise the freedom of speech and the right to associate. Please send protest letters or messages to the Standing Committee, National Poeples' Congress, Beijing, China. We would very much appreciate if you can pass the message to other labour organisations. **************************************************************************** ************ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ April Fifth Action Front Portion, 2nd Floor email: tllau5@hkein.ie.cuhk.hk 103, Argyle Street Mongkok Tel: (852) 2397 6337 HONG KONG Fax: (852) 2394 4383 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ++++ stop the execution of Mumia Abu-Jamal ++++ ++++ if you agree copy these 3 sentences in your own sig ++++ ++++ more info: http://www.xs4all.nl/~tank/spg-l/sigaction.htm ++++ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 00:18:59 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Tong Yi Urgent Action (fwd) URGENT ACTION ALERT: TONG YI July 15, 1995 Human Rights in China (HRIC) has learned that on the morning of July 13, 1995 two police officers visited the parents of political prisoner Tong Yi to inform them that: 1. Due to the fact that Tong Yi has been uncooperative in completing her labor production quotas since her arrival at the Hewan Reeducation Through Labor Camp in Wuhan, Hubei Province, China in January 1995, she would be transferred to the Shayang Reeducation Though Labor Farm in Hubei province (the largest such camp in the country) where prison authorities would use "forceful measures" to make her obey; 2. Her mother would no longer be allowed to visit her because Tong Yi becomes too despondent and unruly following her monthly visits. HRIC also has reliable information that Tong Yi has already been beaten with police batons by police guards in the labor camp. HRIC is extremely concerned the "forceful measures" referred to will involve physical punishment administered by the labor camp authorities or other prisoners ordered to do so. HRIC considers Tong Yi a prisoner of conscience who is in immediate physical danger and calls on the international community including the UN Committee Against Torture and the UN Working Group on Arbitrary Detention to demand for the immediate and unconditional release of Tong Yi. [See below for addresses individuals can write to calling for her release.] Tong Yi, 27, was the former assistant and translator for China's most famous dissident, Wei Jingsheng, until her detention in April 1994 after informing foreign reporters about Wei's April 1, 1994 detention. On December 22, 1994, Tong was sentenced without trial to a two-and-a-half year Reeducation Through Labor term. She was sentenced under Article 10 (4) of the 1982 "Trial Implementation Methods for Reeducation Through Labor" which allows for the detention of individuals for up to three years without charge or trial for activities deemed to "disturb public order." Although the detention order did not specify what crime she was accused of, Tong Yi's only "crime" appears to be her association with Wei Jingsheng. Since her sentencing, Tong has been working 12-hour days in a textile workshop at the Hewan Reeducation Camp near her home in Wuhan, Hubei Province. In a letter smuggled out to her mother, Tong Yi described being beaten on January 16, 1995 by two camp inmates working as "trusties" assigned to assist the prison guards in keeping order. The beating occurred after Tong refused to work more than the eight hours per day stipulated by state regulations and complained about expectations that prisoners in the camp work until 10 p.m. or later to fulfill their production quotas. Tong asked camp officials for protection but was beaten the following day by more than ten fellow women prisoners. Her face and body were reportedly swollen and covered with bruises. In her letter, Tong Yi stated that she would work only eight hours, "even if they beat me to death." The letter also claimed that her written appeals against the inhumane conditions in the camp were repeatedly stolen or confiscated. Tong studied political science at the University of Political Science and Law in Beijing. She was active in the 1989 democracy movement on Tiananmen Square as part of the Student Dialogue Delegation and as a result was forced to leave the university befo graduating. She then worked with the dissident intellectual Cao Siyuan and translated China's Crisis into Chinese. The book, by Columbia University professor Andrew Nathan, examines the impact of the Beijing Massacre on the legitimacy of the Chinese Communist Party. Tong became an assistant for Wei Jingsheng upon his release from a 14-and-a-half year imprisonment in September 1993. For the following seven months she acted as a liaison between Wei and foreign diplomats and journalists. Tong Yi had been accepted to Columbia University for a master's program in political science, and upon her arrest Columbia President George Rupp made a direct appeal for her release. ------------------------------------------------------- Write to the Chinese authorities and make them aware that you know about Tong Yi's situation and demand that she be released immediately or at least be allowed access to a lawyer of her choice to appeal her case in accordance with Chinese law. Jiang Zemin (Greeting: His Excellency) President State Council Beijing, PRC 100701 Fax: 011-8610-467-7351 Li Peng (Greeting: His Excellency) Premier Guowuyuan 9 Xihuangchenggenbeijie Beijing 100032 Fax: 011-8610-512-5810 Tian Qiyu Zhang (Greeting: Dear Director) Gonganting Fujiapo, Wuchang Wuhanshi 430070 Hubeisheng People's Republic of China --------------------------------------------------------- HUMAN RIGHTS IN CHINA is a politically independent, non-profit organization founded by scholars and students from the People's Republic of China. HRIC's work involves documenting and publicizing human rights abuses in China, informing Chinese people about international human rights standards and the mechanisms by which these are enforced, and assisting those persecuted and imprisoned in the PRC for non-violent exercise of their fundamental rights and freedoms. HRIC publishes the quarterly journal CHINA RIGHTS FORUM. For more information, email us at hrichina@igc.org or write to us at Human Rights in China, 485 Fifth Avenue, 3rd Floor, New York, NY 10017 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ April Fifth Action Front Portion, 2nd Floor email: tllau5@hkein.ie.cuhk.hk 103, Argyle Street Mongkok Tel: (852) 2397 6337 HONG KONG Fax: (852) 2394 4383 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ++++ stop the execution of Mumia Abu-Jamal ++++ ++++ if you agree copy these 3 sentences in your own sig ++++ ++++ more info: http://www.xs4all.nl/~tank/spg-l/sigaction.htm ++++ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 00:51:26 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: not a job announcement (fwd) To all: The creative writing program at the University of Hawai'i does not advertise for its Visiting Distinguished Writers (as they are called), but it is possible to express interest in being one by writing to Prof. Robbie Shapard, Dept of English, 1733 Donaghho Road, U of Hawai'i, Honolulu, HI 96822. The positions are for one semester, and I have no idea what they pay (the going rate, I suspect). Because the process has been so mysterious, the writers have tended to be of a kind, which hasn't been so much a bad thing, as a predictable one. I, for one, would love to see people on this list apply. If anyone wants more information, I can muster it up. Susan Schultz Being as I'm here--Oh, please please please someone on this list apply!! That would be wicked pissa! Gab. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 07:49:29 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden <74277.1477@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Larkin fucks again If it was a typo, it was habitual. This is from "High Windows": When I see a couple of kids And guess he's fucking her and she's Taking pills or wearing a diaphragm, I know this is paradise Everyone old has dreamed of all their lives-- Bonds and gestures pushed to one side Like an outdated combine harvester, And everyone young going down the long slide To happiness, endlessly... It seems to me that anybody who whacked off as often as Larkin did probably had the word "fuck" tattooed on his brain--drab, wretched creature that he was... Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 12:12:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <199508130553.WAA18481@bob.indirect.com> On Sat, 12 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >On Fri, 11 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > > > >> >On Fri, 11 Aug 1995, maria damon wrote: > >> > > >> >> sheila m writes: > >> >> > >On Thu, 10 Aug 1995, Louis Cabri wrote: > >> >> > > > >> >> > >> > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> >> > >> > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> >> > >> > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> >> > >> > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> >> > >> > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> >> > >> > The caravan of windows to what they flee > >> >> > >> > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >> >> > >> > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >> >> > >> > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >> >> > >> > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >> >> > >> > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >> >> > >> > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >> >> > >> > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >> >> > >> > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >> >> > >> > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > >> >> > >> > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > >> >> > >> (inspection > >> >> > >> > denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > >> >> > >> > pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > >> >> > >> > mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > >> >> > >> > when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, > kook > >!" > >> >> > >Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco warehouse, > >> >> > curls > >> >> > >no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry > >> >> > cleaners > >> >> > piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience > >> >> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers > >> > the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose encore > >> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments to be > > of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were hooks. > All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of darkness > falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 12:32:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <19875.mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu> On Sun, 13 Aug 1995, Charles Alexander wrote: > On Sat, 12 Aug 1995 22:53:48 -0700, > Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > > >>On Fri, 11 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >> > >>> >On Fri, 11 Aug 1995, maria damon wrote: > >>> > > >>> >> sheila m writes: > >>> >> > >On Thu, 10 Aug 1995, Louis Cabri wrote: > >>> >> > > > >>> >> > >> > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >>> >> > >> > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >>> >> > >> > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >>> >> > >> > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >>> >> > >> > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >>> >> > >> > The caravan of windows to what they flee > >>> >> > >> > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >>> >> > >> > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >>> >> > >> > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >>> >> > >> > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >>> >> > >> > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >>> >> > >> > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >>> >> > >> > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >>> >> > >> > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >>> >> > >> > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > >>> >> > >> > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > >>> >> > >> (inspection > >>> >> > >> > denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > >>> >> > >> > pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > >>> >> > >> > mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > >>> >> > >> > when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, > >kook > >>!" > >>> >> > >Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco warehouse, > >>> >> > curls > >>> >> > >no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry > >>> >> > cleaners > >>> >> > piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience > >>> >> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers > >>> > the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose encore > >>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments to be > >> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were hooks. > >All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of darkness > composed with fetching strands, forwarding replies to deletion's aviary. That is our true memorial to Tic Douloureux. What is empery if you can't ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 10:37:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lisa Robertson Subject: beardsley for lindz hi lindz, one book I've read on Beardsley and his work in the context of a grotesque tradition in european art-- reaching back to greco-roman antiquity and forward to Bakhtin and "perverse erotics" -- is Ewa Kuryluk's Salome and Judas in the Cave of Sex: The Grotesque-- Origins, Iconography, Techniques. From Northwestern University Press, 1987. Many great illustrations from Beardsley and others, too. best, Lisa ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 14:00:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: Larkin fucks again In-Reply-To: <950813114929_74277.1477_HHJ27-6@CompuServe.COM> On Sun, 13 Aug 1995, Rachel Loden wrote: > It seems to me that anybody who whacked off as often as > Larkin did probably had the word "fuck" tattooed on his > brain--drab, wretched creature that he was... I for one am suspicious of any attempt to correlate wretchedness with whack-off rate (damn near a critical myth in the case of Larkin). ;-) Let's find other causes for Larkin's asinine character, please. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg The moment is at hand. University Writing Program Take one another Duke University and eat. Durham, NC 27708 kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 13:55:52 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: Re: your mail Comments: To: Jorge Guitart On 13 Aug 95 at 12:32, Jorge Guitart wrote: > On Sun, 13 Aug 1995, Charles Alexander wrote: > > > On Sat, 12 Aug 1995 22:53:48 -0700, > > Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > > > > >>On Fri, 11 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > > >> > > >>> >On Fri, 11 Aug 1995, maria damon wrote: > > >>> > > > >>> >> sheila m writes: > > >>> >> > >On Thu, 10 Aug 1995, Louis Cabri wrote: > > >>> >> > > > > >>> >> > >> > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > >>> >> > >> > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > >>> >> > >> > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > >>> >> > >> > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > >>> >> > >> > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > >>> >> > >> > The caravan of windows to what they flee > > >>> >> > >> > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > >>> >> > >> > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > >>> >> > >> > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > >>> >> > >> > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > >>> >> > >> > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > >>> >> > >> > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > >>> >> > >> > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > > >>> >> > >> > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > > >>> >> > >> > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > > >>> >> > >> > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > > >>> >> > >> (inspection > > >>> >> > >> > denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > > >>> >> > >> > pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > > >>> >> > >> > mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > > >>> >> > >> > when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, > > >kook > > >>!" > > >>> >> > >Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco warehou > se, > > >>> >> > curls > > >>> >> > >no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry > > >>> >> > cleaners > > >>> >> > piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience > > >>> >> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers > > >>> > the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose encore > > >>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments to be > > >> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were hooks. > > >All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of darkness > > composed with fetching strands, forwarding replies to deletion's aviary. > That is our true memorial to Tic Douloureux. What is empery if you can't file your nails against a monarch? The veil of tears, swept away with ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/ Online Representative, Austin International Poetry Festival \| / Joe Zitt's Home Page\ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 17:52:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Debrismaterial noise-poem In-Reply-To: <199508131855.NAA12605@zoom.bga.com> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> > > > > >>> >> > > > > > >>> >> > >> (inspection > g > , > > > >kook > > > >>!" > ou > > se, > > > >>> >> > curls > ry > e > . ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 16:59:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: furnished, remember? In-Reply-To: from "Jorge Guitart" at Aug 13, 95 12:32:00 pm So, for those out there/in here who so energetically aided me with furnishing decisions, one has finally been made and engaged: I am putting things in places where they fit! Very arbitrary and spatially centred. Whew. We even have a Jesus ash-tray to be used on Sundays only. Thanks for the inspired and disfunctional suggestions. best, ryan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 19:00:46 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: THANKYOU C.B. for the list, equal, that is... In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of the french language of a pubed cratylian vs. baud a lair rate in ascii for it ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 21:51:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Larkin fucks again Dear David kellogg--for one who has a quote from THOMAS KINSELLA (gag) I'm REAL CURIOUS why you'd call Larkin assinine--isn't that kinda like the little fish calling the big fish "poison" (if you're i mean you'll pardon my french"------anne onimous.... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 14:57:21 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: JG others and us I once had a mother-in-law who would say as a swear Sugar, but would also say when asked repeatedly what was for dinner: Shit with Sugar on. My favourite NZ adjective is "wretched" pronounced "ratshit. There's something awry with the time of postings from here, no sooner do I see my second favourite chook get on to a Renga, to wit, Foghorn Leghorn, when I nowhere see him now no more, incompany with a line that disappeared into oblivion. What is thees? Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 21:14:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: your mail >On Sat, 12 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >> >On Fri, 11 Aug 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: >> > >> >> >On Fri, 11 Aug 1995, maria damon wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> sheila m writes: >> >> >> > >On Thu, 10 Aug 1995, Louis Cabri wrote: >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > >> > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> >> >> > >> > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> >> >> > >> > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> >> >> > >> > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> >> >> > >> > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> >> >> > >> > The caravan of windows to what they flee >> >> >> > >> > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> >> >> > >> > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> >> >> > >> > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> >> >> > >> > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> >> >> > >> > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> >> >> > >> > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >> >> >> > >> > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >> >> >> > >> > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >> >> >> > >> > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >> >> >> > >> > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance >> >> >> > >> (inspection >> >> >> > >> > denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing >> >> >> > >> > pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several >> >> >> > >> > mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango >> >> >> > >> > when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, >> kook >> >!" >> >> >> > >Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco warehous >e, >> >> >> > curls >> >> >> > >no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry >> >> >> > cleaners >> >> >> > piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience >> >> >> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers >> >> > the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose encore >> >> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments to be >> > of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were hooks. >> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of darkness >> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft fruit ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 21:16:44 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Rejected posting to POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (fwd) I sent the messages on Corn's and Silliman's CAP-L exchange to Alfred Corn (a college teacher of mine). Here's his response. Susan ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 16:25:43 -1000 From: Indepen To: Susan Schultz Subject: Rejected posting to POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (fwd) Dear Susan--Tried to send this but was rejected. Do you think you could forward it to them? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 15:08:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Indepen To: POETICS@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu Subject: "Marketing strategies" I was interested by a post forwarded to me about "marketing strategies" for concurrent poetic styles, which leads to the following connected series of questions: (1) Is the purpose of the POETICS list to have a go at changing subscribers' thinking on questions of poetics, or simply to send a message pleasing to the speaker even if not designed or destined to change anyone's thinking? (2) If the latter, then why not just skip the list and send it to oneself alone? (3) If the purpose is to change subscribers' thinking, then why not present the sender's thinking on a particular style or poetry? (4) Given how revealing metaphors are, which of the following metaphors best describes the process of changing the thinking of another person? a. The lighting of one candle from another. b. Selling, and the marketing strategies behind selling. c. Infection--the propagation of a microbe or virus. d. Coercion, the marshaling of intellectual troops to enforce correct thinking. e. Seduction--attraction, effective endearments and caresses, leading to surrender. f. Inebriation--conveyance of intellectual substances which erode resistance or blur argument. g. Terrorism--dropping a bomb and taking advantage of the resulting fear and confusion to assume control. h. A sermon leading to conversion i. The banquet--setting out a dinner and declaring "Open House." (5) Are there other metaphors that describe the process? (6) Have there been instances of subscribers' changing their thinking on the basis of posts on POETICS? If so, how did it happen? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 07:03:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Rejected posting to POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (fwd) I'm readng Alfred Corn's posting to POETICS and wondering who it was a response to--perhaps Rachel...or maybe Herb Levy--though Levy's lengthy post did not really suggest "changing people's minds" so maybe that idea was a Corn intepolation. It sees to me that herb was less interested in changing people's minds than he was in wanting people to come out of the closet a little me and be willing to "define" themselves. But maybe that's a misreading too. As for myself, I'd like to see more of a attempt at such "definition" but I don't think a discussion of the work of somebody on the list would necessarily work---(esp. when there's a thread around still called "Jerry Garcia" which has nothing to say about its ostensible subject but "nifty" swear words)---in parts because then the list becomes subordinated to the published body of someone's work---for me, one of the values of the list is that to some extent it's AN ESCAPE from that, a possibility for a different mode of dialogue than "poetry" and "essay writing"--i still have some kind of faith in the possibility of "organic" "improvisation" or something among the rengas... And the possibilities of ISSUES that have come up here (such as metaphor, the self/the soul,and others) seems more fruitful than bringing egos into it too much by discussing the work of a "big name" or career level ( i meant "mid-career level"--mandel's term) or unknown poet---- Jordan Davis asked this question of what do we want to happen on this list awhile ago, and it's still an open question...I'm on a SHAKESPEARE list and though the arguments there are not so much analogous to the ones here (I.e.--not a matter of JONSON vs. SHAKESPEARE like OLSON vs. O'HARA) but there is HUGE division about critical approaches and/or temperaments (IF anyone still believes in that), and it's handeld for the most part very gracefully--..and maybe in the POETICS world "candor" is nothing but the title of a book by alan davies (though maria damon and others have been quite candid), and maybe this is due to fear of alienating potential supporters---I keep thinking of that thing in Midsummer Night's Dream where the actors are afraid that roaring like a lion will scare the audience...when of course even a VERY GOOD actor can not convincingly roar like a lion enough to scare, let alone THEM! (us)--or the dylan line about "the one who tries to hide what it don't know to begin with"-- And, MAYBE MAYBE dear Alfred Corn I'm just loving to hear myself speak-- (and this has gone on long even for me--but what the hell---) but since I don't always believe you have to try to change someon's mind in order not to "just hear yourself speak" it may be something else..... sloppily yours (unwinding), chris s. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 11:03:53 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: keith Subject: Re: Rejected posting to POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 13 Aug 1995 21:16:44 -1000 from Re Corn's questions: Mostly a lurker, the list lubricates me, usually early in the morning, with coffee. I "change my thinking" every three thousand miles, or every three months, whichever comes first. Others may be "points of light"--not quite a thousand--lit up on this chain- fuse. In the spirit of metaphor, Keith Tuma ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 11:11:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Re: Favorite swears and Seventies-Speak Willa, I've always wanted to use the work fuck in a poem because it sounds so good. But it doesn't really work on the page. Or I haven't figured out a good way to use it. Anyone have a great fuck line? I will use my favorite fuck swear in a sentence. "You're a fuckstain." Bill Luoma ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 12:02:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: JG others and us tony green writes: > I once had a mother-in-law who would say as a swear Sugar, but would > also say when asked repeatedly what was for dinner: Shit with Sugar > on. My favourite NZ adjective is "wretched" pronounced "ratshit. > There's something awry with the time of postings from here, no sooner > do I see my second favourite chook get on to a Renga, to wit, Foghorn > Leghorn, when I nowhere see him now no more, incompany with a line > that disappeared into oblivion. What is thees? > you know, i too have renga anxiety, in the sense that i've noticed that most of the rengas i post a line on, w/ one exception, die immediately afterwards. this is giving me a complex! like, am i really THAT bad a poet? esp since i notice that the only one still extant that i have a line in is the one to which i contributed a homophonous translation of mallarme --not even my "own" stuff. what's a chook?--md ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 19:30:24 BST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "I.LIGHTMAN" Subject: Re: Larkin fucks again Comments: To: POETICS@edu.buffalo.cc.UBVM Larkin also wrote poems that commit to memory, viz the following, from my own memory They fuck you up, your mum and dad. They may not mean to but they do. They hand on all the faults they had And add some new ones, just for you. But they were fucked up, in their turn, By fools in old-style hats and coats Who half the time were soppy-stern And half at one another's throats. Man hands on misery to man. It deepens like a coastal shelf. Get out as early as you can, And don't have any kids yourself. This poem seems to me no less mordant and bitter than a Kurt Cobain lyric, yet I doubt he'll get called the names Larkin's getting called, though both have a talent we may mock but may envy of memorability, a whole piece staying in the mind, not necessarily because of an "internal logic" such as Ron has brilliantly analysed in The New Sentence, but sometimes wedding odd curiously-phrased line or noticed detail to each other, by the power of knowing and feeling for an oral form committable to memory. Plus, the use of the word "fuck" in this poem expertly connects with the other uses of the word "fuck" in Larkin's small oeuvre, to demonstrate a man in some ways blunted as a child and dealing with adults and lovers in a trapped and unsensuous way because he has been made into a rhythm; this is not to say he treated his lovers, or those he came into contact with at Hull University Library, with brutality; it seems the fact of his biography that he was gentle and polite with them (though self-indulgent and morose with - often stupid - literary admirers), yet could not enjoy this gentle rhythm, felt it always to be an act. This still allows us a distinction between what his poems and letters may reveal of an inner life, a brutal despair, a racism (expressed privately and never mounted as a public act, such as refusing someone service or employment - a racism of which many writers who never write racism happen to practice) and how he acted. For Larkin's lovers there was such a thing as a caress, for him it was unenjoyable, terrifying, not a fuck. It seems to me that Clark Coolidge can do a terrific explosion of the word fuck in his _Book of During_, yet in the end it remains less interesting than Larkin's use of it, or just as. I get as annoyed reading unbacked-up sniping at Larkin as others do hearing people be snobby about pop music - is one saying that Larkin was wicked, that Larkin readers are wicked, that it's corrupting, or what? Why either Larkin or Language Poetry? Why not both? Ira Lightman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 14:59:06 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Taylor Organization: PSU Cramer Hall Subject: Shedding the Lurker Skin I've been here a couple of weeks, lurking, as they say, and looking over your shoulders. Nothing to persent myself with besides this: tap tap. But now I have a lot of stuff up on the net, through John Fowler's GRIST, and to further introduce myself, I invite you to my stuff. You may or may not like it, but there's room for everyone here, I think; my orientation is post. post language post modern hopefully post apocalypse (we are in it). I am also collecting material for a forthcoming project, The Vision Project (V GER), and my smail is PO Box 216 Oysterville WA 98641. At GRIST are a novella, Horndog; a long poetic aesthetic, The One, The Same, and The Other (spectacular diseases & texture press 1993); a self-explanatory I hope text, Superprose; and some other stuff. I welcome yr comments and enjoy yr conversation, especially on the proprietary qualities of sch wrds as yr, wd, sz, etc at neoOlsonisms, praps as economy as much as borrowings.... et tu Rengamatic? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 18:03:25 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: engulping flames of remorse In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, kook!" Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco warehouse, curls no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry cleaners piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose encore Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments to be of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were hooks. All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of darkness composed with fetching strands, forwarding replies to deletion's aviary. That is our true memorial to Tic Douloureux. What is empery if you can't file your nails against a monarch? The veil of tears, swept away with the New Zealand lamb, nozzle out of control. Fired by the Supervisor, Meats as "Nothing Without You" ambiently croons. Lit ring around the panga, not ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 17:43:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: from "Jorge Guitart" at Aug 13, 95 12:12:44 pm This is not fair! Some sneaky bastards are giving innocuous titles such as "Your mail" to rengas! How can an honest person delete them without looking if they're going to pretend to be something other than renga? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 17:52:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Favorite swears and Seventies-Speak In-Reply-To: <199508130316.UAA11164@fraser.sfu.ca> from "Ryan Knighton" at Aug 12, 95 08:16:23 pm I dont think anyone swears better than do the Australians. I like it when they call someone (even me) a "pisswit." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 17:55:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: "marketing strategies" In-Reply-To: <302d3c196173002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> from "maria damon" at Aug 12, 95 06:41:15 pm Has someone explained what AWP means? I thought maybe Angry White Poets. Nah. Anne Waldman People? Probly not. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 18:03:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: West Coast Line In-Reply-To: from "Herb Levy" at Aug 12, 95 09:22:22 am Re Herb's question abt the new ish of West Coast Line. Nope, I think that the new issue is interesting all the way thru, but maybe that is because I edited the thing. It is the all-Canuck issue. The next issue is ed. by Peter Quartermain, and is the Brit issue. This one just out has terrific bpNichol stuff, Erin Moure, section on Roy Kiyooka, a weird series from Native woman named J.B.Joe, etc. Best intro to CanLit I can imagine. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 21:11:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: "marketing strategies" In-Reply-To: <199508150055.RAA20683@fraser.sfu.ca> I'd always heard that AWP stood for Average White Poets, although around the office it's usually Associated Weird Problems. Gwyn, at least one Anne Waldman Person in the office ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 18:13:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <9508120144.AA34636@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca> from "Louis Cabri" at Aug 11, 95 07:44:20 pm Hey, Charlie, what the hell were in those books?> > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The caravan of windows to what they flee > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > (inspection > denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, > kook!" > Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco > warehouse, curls > no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the > dry cleaners > having recovered from the chemicals of deadlines drop stitched > into > the ball Kevin Mitchell bare > handed. Baseball sold > out. cash stricken striked. > Would that as a poet I had > the chance to do something like > > grace the outfield, hands bare > from ringing, washing scales > of passion's conformity never > minding a green surface, far > cry from eternity, kitchen table > > bleached down, a firecracker > cold as the buckles on my sandals > as the wesleyans come in the room > and hang up their robes and go > down to the fellowship hall > > the garcia posological convention already underway > platform sonneteers > reminisce those hash oil crisis years > when every squib seemed damp & colon slack: > get real, ya doofuses, the Blob is back > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 18:15:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Favorite swears and Seventies-Speak In-Reply-To: <950811204654_72363742@aol.com> from "Rod Smith" at Aug 11, 95 08:46:55 pm When George Stanley came back from his stretch in the army, he kept using what I took to be a southern expression" "Well, dog bite my pecker!" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 18:22:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: "marketing strategies" > Thanks to Herb, Maria, Gwyn and Charles for there insights on "AWP" > of course--if we want to prevent this discussion from lapsing into Chris - Thanks for the thanks, but I don't even know what AWP is, so if I talked about it, it was by accident. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 18:26:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Mitchellmania, Harpermania In-Reply-To: from "Susan Schultz" at Aug 10, 95 10:49:49 am Nope, Ozzie Smith never played for the Giants. But he did play in calif., for the Padres.