========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 01:33:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: you & what army This talk is boring. Not WCW. Very few poets have done anything to rival Asphodel. (I mean besides David Ayre.) Much less the work in Imaginations. "All I said was: there, you see, it is broken" Next thing you'll be saying O'Hara's old hat. "Either that or a bullet !" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 22:32:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson >Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 04:21:32 -0700 >From: Ron Silliman >Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix... yow! (the elliptoided cadenza, not the header above) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 22:32:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson >Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 11:27:47 -0500 >From: Edward Foster >Subject: Re: you & whose army? > >dear m: wcw "modernized" himself by not writing like keats. [keats' generation wa >s to wcw's what wcw's is to now. olson (born before WWI) lived in wcw's world. w >e don't. the century's nearly gone. should we still be listening to wcw? -e] well sure but the fact that he always remained a very keatsian poet didn't make him a(n even) less interesting poet (than you apparently find him). Doan read no Keats no mo? (how is you spell po-ems, man?) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 22:32:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson >Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 11:30:16 -0500 >From: Edward Foster >Subject: Re: you & whose army? > >dear m: actually, did teach spring & all last year, will do american grain this. > but am doing it to suggest certain transformations in ideas about poetry and vi >ew of the past that have yellowed, dated. american grain: very dated. -e no doubt. Paterson, a whole lot less so (the Grosse Fugue, even less so, as I think it was Schonberg more or less remarked) reporting diarrheal disturbance w/o fear of economic reprisal.... been to hell in a boat yet? hi to Bob Packard btw (?) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 22:32:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson >Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 15:32:00 -0500 >From: Edward Foster >Subject: Re: you & whose army? > >burt: you can't make wine from grain. anyway, what's this fear of leaving wcw be >hind? or at least leaving him in the classroom? i have a feeling that of that tr >io--ep, hd, wce--it's hd (of trilogy) who offers most now. -ed exfoliate you must? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 22:33:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson >Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 14:56:51 -0500 >From: Charles Alexander >Subject: Re: you & why an army? > >ed & jeffrey: does this mean that reading keats is absolutely out of the >question. Or, given the postmodern pastiche of time, should we read wcw as >keats would have read him? just as long as neither has to be filtered >through renga. > >charles well, you have just entered the koan bizniz. really lovely to contemplate (what you said, not you in the koan biz, though that too) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 07:02:48 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Edwards <100344.2546@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: WCW and whose army Our reading of the literature of the past is continuously refracted through the prism of the present. But it's the necessary business - right in between the sclerosis of the national heritage theme park, on the one hand, and the instantaneous amnesia of MTV culture on the other. WCW still feels like an outsider to me. I was told recently by someone brought up in Paterson, NJ, that he was never taught Williams in English class, and never heard about him until after he left school. ain't nobody here but us white chickens beside the red wheel barrow glazed with rain water upon which so much depends ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 04:18:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Koan Bidness What is the sound of three lines flapping? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 08:04:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "CAROLYN L. FORCHE-MATTISON" Subject: list poets in the Post In this morning's Washington Post, Mark Wallace beautifully rebuts the pompous Jonathan Yardley's attack on poets/writers/teaching/arts money [which appeared in last Sunday's "Outlook" secton, usually reserved for inside-the-beltway blather], and manages also to invoke (among others) Charles Bernstein, Robert Creeley, Susan Howe, and Bernadette Mayer, as well as contribute an astute reality check on the survival strategies of most working artists. If you are out there, Mark, bravo! --Carolyn Forche ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 09:46:16 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Blair Seagram Subject: Ranting on St Marks For some time now I have wanted to buy a book by Zukofsky who I first heard of on this list. A friend suggested St Marks as the best bookstore to find him in. I called them up and was told they had a large selection. Fine I said to myself, I'll go over there later tonight and spend some time browsing. I go to St Marks occasionally. Not enough to remember where everything is located. However I found the poetry section and then I found the end of the poetry section, where the X, Y's and Z's are. It runs into poetry anthologies I believe. No Zukofsky from what I could see. So I asked the grey-haired bearded man at the desk where I could find Zukofsky. "In the poetry section," he growled. I tried again. Then I walked to the front of the store to see if someone at the front desk could help me. No, it appeared that guy was engaged in ringing up purchases. So I said to myself fuck it, that guy should do his bloody job and help me. I went to the desk again. I asked the bearded grouch in a polite voice if he wouldn't mind checking his computer to see if any Zukofsky was in stock. "Oh, for Christ sake," he said as he got violently up from his desk and marched to the poetry section two feet away, "Just check the rack." Which he did. Then he said, "We're out of stock." Which is what I thought but wanted to be sure I hadn't missed anything. "When will you have him back in stock?" I asked. "Not for a long time," he said. At which point I had had enough, "When I called this afternoon I was told you had all of Zukofsky on the shelves." "We never carry all of Zukofsky," he said. "Well!" I shrugged, threw up my hands and walked out in a silent rage. On the way home I stopped in at the Barnes and Noble in my neighborhood and picked up a copy of "A". No stress and no bad vibes. Simple, easy, polite. Maybe the grey-haired bearded guy was having a hard day's night, I don't know. But he put me off entirely. His attitude was rude, angry, ugly and degrading. Rather than compare St Marks to Barnes and Noble which is unfair because they are in two different leagues, let me compare St Marks, with say, The Gotham Book Mart. Now here is a bookstore that has never been anything but polite, helpful and friendly to me. It is a bookstore I have used far more than St Marks and will continue to do so. It has a literary history that blows St Marks right off the map, with manners and sophistication to boot. Never mind that things are slightly jumbled and out of order. Chalk it up to charm. By the way,from the little I read last night Zukofsky is engaging, and I am sure that is the least of it. A question. I believe Zukofsky wrote something about Shakespeare. A critical essay or perhaps a book. Does anyone have the title and/or know anything about it? Take care Blair ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 09:58:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: this break will or will not not branch In-Reply-To: <9509151128.aa11913@post.demon.co.uk> On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, cris cheek, savage editor, wrote: > >>>>In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >>>>And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > [savage edit] > >>>>demitassed to mean full-bodied wine with alcohol removed > >>>>by trained leeches from under the rotting elastic, a feast > >>>>of swirling eddies with beaucoup of labia & confetti > >>>>starving time's scythe for water, matching colors to go > >>>crecheward into sweet line drawings clothed to world our > >>words for water, falling four blocks away, finally, a gulf > >between perceived and rinsing water, shroud and comforter, > flogging proud wet stones with patchwork flags making tenement hum with "Too late the coloscope" and "Cried the besotted gondry" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 10:05:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: list poets in the Post In-Reply-To: Mark, please post your rebuttal to yardley on the list. Many thanks and warm regards. (Thanks to Carolyn for telling us about it.) Jorge. On Sat, 16 Sep 1995, CAROLYN L. FORCHE-MATTISON wrote: > In this morning's Washington Post, Mark Wallace beautifully rebuts > the pompous Jonathan Yardley's attack on poets/writers/teaching/arts > money [which appeared in last Sunday's "Outlook" secton, usually > reserved for inside-the-beltway blather], and manages also to invoke > (among others) Charles Bernstein, Robert Creeley, Susan Howe, and > Bernadette Mayer, as well as contribute an astute reality check on > the survival strategies of most working artists. If you are out there, > Mark, bravo! > > --Carolyn Forche > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 10:25:13 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: you & whose army? ed, you mean that hd of the three is most relevant (out of the trio: ep, hd, wcw) beccause of her poetics or because she is the least picked over ("And I come after, glenynge here and there. And am ful glad if I may fynde an ere Of any goodly word that they [other poets] han left.") bk ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 10:26:09 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: you & whose army? ed, sorry i left it out: the lines are from Chaucer in the Prologue to the Legend of Good Women. burt ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 08:41:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: Sheila, Chris & Jorge's Excellent Adventure On the 16th, Jorge wrote: >On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, cris cheek wrote: > >> >>AS PROMISED >> >> >> >>> >>> >> >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.And flew >> >>> >> >> >>> >> (...) >> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >spending the bulk of closure with sentient scoops >> >>> >>> that fluke picnic shot out of these worlds we spread been-to >> >>> >> say that the center cannot hold the nose tackle much longer >> >>> >than a clam can sleeve out of incarceration baldly >> >>> go where others fear to operate the biggest donors hive >> >>> & where Mars collides with the small world of "It's a small world" >> >ripe for macroscopes to pump or slice or butterfly away >> from that ardent bugged heliotrope and pledge allegiance through > ostension--we stopped short of the shortstop stigmata this time pencilled in as tangly wisps instead of memory ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 09:10:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Zukofsky: On Shakespeare Blair Seagram asks: >A question. I believe Zukofsky wrote something about Shakespeare. A >critical essay or perhaps a book. Does anyone have the title and/or know >anything about it? > Louis Zukofsky's book "Bottom: On Shakespeare" was reissued by U of Cal Press a few years ago, I think this edition is still in print. This edition reissues only volume one of the original text. Volume two was Celia Zukofsky's musical setting of Shakespeare's play "Pericles, Prince of Tyre." LZ writes somewhere that CZ's rhythmic notation of Shakespeare's text in this setting makes clear the ideas about Shakespeare he was writing about. But then LZ also wrote that this dense and entertaining book could be reduced to the logical formula . There's a lot more there, regardless of how relevant it is to these thesis. In any case, even those of us who read music might quibble about the discursive quality of CZ's music here. It isn't clear to me, at least, how to get LZ's ideas about Shakespeare, Aristotle, Spinoza, & Wittgenstein from CZ's use of, say, dotted quarter notes. That said, CZ's music seems to be pretty. As far as I know the setting was never performed. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 12:49:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Reading in S.F. Announcement: ------------------------- R E A D I N G ------------------------- Loss Pequen~o Glazier reading in S.F. with Steven Shaviro on Saturday, Oct. 21, 8 pm at New Langton Arts, 1246 Folsom Street. Also I will be doing a discussion on the ELECTRONIC POETRY CENTER and Shaviro will be presenting on his online _Doom Patrols_. ------------------------- Sponsored by Small Press Traffic/Small Press Partner Series with many thanks to Dodie Bellamy! ------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 15:04:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Sheila, Chris & Jorge's Excellent Adventure In-Reply-To: <199509161541.IAA14460@bob.indirect.com> SEM-CC-JG BRANCH 9/16/95 in the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.And flew > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> (...) > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >>> >spending the bulk of closure with sentient scoops > >> >>> >>> that fluke picnic shot out of these worlds we spread been-to > >> >>> >> say that the center cannot hold the nose tackle much longer > >> >>> >than a clam can sleeve out of incarceration baldly > >> >>> go where others fear to operate the biggest donors hive > >> >>> & where Mars collides with the small world of "It's a small world" > >> >ripe for macroscopes to pump or slice or butterfly away > >> from that ardent bugged heliotrope and pledge allegiance through > > ostension--we stopped short of the shortstop stigmata > this time pencilled in as tangly wisps instead of memory detonations: but don't forget to dismember the doloroso ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 19:59:58 EDT Reply-To: beard@metdp1.met.co.nz Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: beard@MET.CO.NZ Subject: Re: Ranting on St Marks >For some time now I have wanted to buy a book by Zukofsky who I first heard >of on this list. A friend suggested St Marks as the best bookstore to find >him in. I called them up and was told they had a large selection. Nice to have a bookshop that's even _heard_ of Zukofsky! Tom Beard. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 23:16:15 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: Sheila, Chris & Jorge's Excellent Adventure >SEM-CC-JG BRANCH 9/16/95 > >in the books were dreams and in the dreams were >books.And flew > >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> (...) >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >>> >spending the bulk of closure with sentient scoops >> >> >>> >>> that fluke picnic shot out of these worlds we spread been-to >> >> >>> >> say that the center cannot hold the nose tackle much longer >> >> >>> >than a clam can sleeve out of incarceration baldly >> >> >>> go where others fear to operate the biggest donors hive >> >> >>> & where Mars collides with the small world of "It's a small world" >> >> >ripe for macroscopes to pump or slice or butterfly away >> >> from that ardent bugged heliotrope and pledge allegiance through >> > ostension--we stopped short of the shortstop stigmata >> this time pencilled in as tangly wisps instead of memory > detonations: but don't forget to dismember the doloroso I left in the rain by mistake whilst on business vocation ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 23:16:21 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: this break will or will not not branch >On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, jorge guitart, the savage seconder, wrote: > >> >>>>In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> >>>>And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> [savage edit] >> >>>>demitassed to mean full-bodied wine with alcohol removed >> >>>>by trained leeches from under the rotting elastic, a feast >> >>>>of swirling eddies with beaucoup of labia & confetti >> >>>>starving time's scythe for water, matching colors to go >> >>>crecheward into sweet line drawings clothed to world our >> >>words for water, falling four blocks away, finally, a gulf >> >between perceived and rinsing water, shroud and comforter, >> flogging proud wet stones with patchwork flags making tenement hum > with "Too late the coloscope" and "Cried the besotted gondry" fishing around with like with like and let it get too cold, "Hey, ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 20:01:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Sheila, Chris & Jorge's Excellent Adventure In-Reply-To: <9509162307.aa05738@post.demon.co.uk> > >SEM-CC-JG BRANCH 9/16/95 J adding to C in the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.And flew spending the bulk of closure with sentient scoops that fluke picnic shot out of these worlds we spread been-to say that the center cannot hold the nose tackle much longer than a clam can sleeve out of incarceration baldly go where others fear to operate the biggest donors hive & where Mars collides with the small world of "It's a small world" ripe for macroscopes to pump or slice or butterfly away from that ardent bugged heliotrope and pledge allegiance through ostension--we stopped short of the shortstop's stigmata this time pencilled in as tangly wisps instead of memory detonations: but don't forget to dismember the doloroso I left in the rain by mistake whilst on business vocation the night I told you to stop referring to me as Ontology Boy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 20:12:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: this break will or will not not branch In-Reply-To: <9509162307.aa05767@post.demon.co.uk> Chris Cheek, the Noble Savage, wrote > >> >>>>In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> >>>>And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> [savage edit] > >> >>>>demitassed to mean full-bodied wine with alcohol removed > >> >>>>by trained leeches from under the rotting elastic, a feast > >> >>>>of swirling eddies with beaucoup of labia & confetti > >> >>>>starving time's scythe for water, matching colors to go > >> >>>crecheward into sweet line drawings clothed to world our > >> >>words for water, falling four blocks away, finally, a gulf > >> >between perceived and rinsing water, shroud and comforter, > >> flogging proud wet stones with patchwork flags making tenement hum > > with "Too late the coloscope" and "Cried the besotted gondry" > fishing around with like with like and let it get too cold, "Hey, tell us apart" "Don't be saussure, tracy". "The name is trace, pal" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 21:16:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: The Mark of Yardbird In-Reply-To: <199509170356.UAA02632@sparta.SJSU.EDU> Mark -- can I get xerox of your _Post_ post & Yardley excresence? If you don't have copies, give me dates so I can look up in library -- You may not recall ten years back when Yardley wrote a columnular whatsit advocating the end of all poetry reviewing in the _Post_ (which never amounted to much in any event) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 23:28:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: St. Marks (RIP?) >Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 09:46:16 -0800 >From: Blair Seagram >Subject: Ranting on St Marks > >For some time now I have wanted to buy a book by Zukofsky who I first heard >of on this list. A friend suggested St Marks as the best bookstore to find >him in. I called them up and was told they had a large selection. Fine I >said to myself, I'll go over there later tonight and spend some time >browsing....... too bad about St. Marks. There was a period in the eighties when it was just amazing: small stock, but nothing you didn't want to buy & read; lots of stuff not available or not prominently displayed in much bigger bookstores. MIght be worth one more try before writing off. Actually I always found Gotham kind of fustian and annoying.... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 01:05:32 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: be advised: wcw qtd in this renga In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three Something has changed in the nature of friendship But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 00:24:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: be advised: wcw qtd in this renga In-Reply-To: <9509170705.AA48166@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca> from "Louis Cabri" at Sep 17, 95 01:05:32 am In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three Something has changed in the nature of friendship But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 00:38:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Zuk In-Reply-To: from "Blair Seagram" at Sep 16, 95 09:46:16 am Blair: you must mean the monumental _Bottom: on Shakespeare_. It dribbled out in the Fifties. He wrote it from 1947 to 1960. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 00:46:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: WCW and whose army In-Reply-To: <950916110248_100344.2546_EHQ65-1@CompuServe.COM> from "Ken Edwards" at Sep 16, 95 07:02:48 am When I visited The Cloisters I asked the young woman behind the desk why they didnt have copies of _Paterson V_ for sale. She said what was that. I said a poem by William Carlos Williams, which causes people such as myself, from the oppositer coast, to visit The Cloisters. He's your great poet, I said. Never heard of him, she said. She shda been working at St Mark's. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 00:51:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <199509160532.WAA14654@web.azstarnet.com> from "Tenney Nathanson" at Sep 15, 95 10:32:58 pm Oh my God! Are people still reading HD's _Trilogy_? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 01:03:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Renga permissions In-Reply-To: <2E272C013E@fagan.uncg.edu> from "H. T. KIRBY-SMITH" at Sep 15, 95 08:17:13 am On May 11, 1995, at the Shenanigans pub, George Stanley said to me: "If that BuffNet is such hot stuff, why dont you see whether you can get them to compose a renga or two?" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 09:05:45 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "H. T. KIRBY-SMITH" Organization: University of NC at Greensboro Subject: Jonathan Yardley When I first moved here, Jonathan Yardley was book-page editor for what was then the Greensboro Daily News. He admitted repeatedly that he simply could not read and did not understand poetry. In other respects he was too intelligent and liberal-minded for some of his readers. Jon was especially enthusiastic about sports books. I once had a bad dream in which he asked me to review a three volume autobiography of Joe Garigiola, whose name I cannot spell, handing me a heavy volume titled THE EARLY YEARS. I am afraid that he has felt put down for years by refined literary types and feels that poetry is almost pure pretense. I am afraid not much can be done about it. When McDonald's serves quiche maybe Yardley will like poetry. Tom Kirby-Smith English Department UNC-Greensboro Greensboro NC 27412 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 13:34:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: be advised: wcw qtd in this renga In-Reply-To: <9509170705.AA48166@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca> On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, Louis Cabri wrote: > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three > Something has changed in the nature of friendship > But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line > For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum > Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs > Paterson lies to her in Passaic about the plums ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 13:37:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: be advised: wcw qtd in this renga In-Reply-To: <199509170724.HAA09873@fraser.sfu.ca> On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, George Bowering wrote: > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three > Something has changed in the nature of friendship > But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line > For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum > Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs > Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm > feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 14:27:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian McHale Subject: Re: Zukofsky: On Shakespeare In-Reply-To: Message of 09/16/95 at 09:10:59 from herb@ESKIMO.COM An addendum to Herb Levy's information on Zukofsky's "Bottom: On Shakespeare": The California edition he mentions was being offered by the Scholar's Book- shelf, the mail-order remainder house, very cheap, last year, & it may still be available from them. (I bought one.) Brian McHale ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 11:30:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: Renga permissions George Bowering writes: >On May 11, 1995, at the Shenanigans pub, George Stanley said to me: >"If that BuffNet is such hot stuff, why dont you see whether you can >get them to compose a renga or two?" Hey, after the responsible parties get those babies archived and ready for browsing, let's see if we can lose George in them. Bet we can... Steve ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 15:36:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Smith Subject: Re: LZ & bookshop vagaries Sad to say, but the only store here in Sacramento to carry any LZ is Barnes & Noble; they've had _A_ on the shelf for almost a year. They're also the only store here to have carried Susan Howe's _Non-Conformist's Memorial_ & Michael Palmer's _At Passages_. Hate to support 'em, but . . . Sobin's _Breath Burials_ & Joris' Celan translations weren't to be found anywhere in Sac or Berkeley (Cody's does stock the Talisman _Selected_) & I had to special order them (just came in yesterday). What gives? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 19:26:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: The Mark of Yardbird In-Reply-To: I would like to see a copy on the list, too. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg No ideas but in things. University Writing Program --W.C. Williams Duke University Durham, NC 27708 No ideas in things, either. kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --John Ashbery ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 19:53:12 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: fyi From: MX%"SHARP-L@IUBVM.UCS.INDIANA.EDU" 17-SEP-1995 16:35:47.79 To: MX%"SHARP-L@IUBVM.UCS.INDIANA.EDU" CC: Subj: 1995 Symposium of the Ephemera Society of America MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 16:36:07 -0400 Reply-To: "SHARP-L Society for the History of Authorship, Reading & Publishing" From: Brett Charbeneau Subject: 1995 Symposium of the Ephemera Society of America Comments: To: Book_Arts-L@listserv.syr.edu, eram-l@kentvm.kent.edu, va-hist@leo.vsla.edu, exlibris@rutvm1.rutgers.edu, h-south@UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU, ieahcnet@UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU, letpress@unbvm1.csd.unb.ca, museum-l@unmvma.unm.edu To: Multiple recipients of list SHARP-L This announcement has been cross-posted to several lists - our apologies if you received multile copies! ***** URGENT: Please respond by September 19th!! ***** 5th Annual North American Symposium of the Ephemera Society of America at Colonial Williamsburg Williamsburg, VA October 20-21, 1995 EPHEMERA: anything short-lived or transitory The Ephemera Society of America is an organization committed to the study of often-overlooked but culturally rich objects such as lottery tickets, newspapers, trade cards, and travel literature - to name but a few. The annual symposiums of the society focus on a main theme and include lecture sessions as well as activities devoted to the study, discussion, and illumination of pieces of ephemera as material culture. The society will hold its 1995 symposium in historical Colonial Williamsburg, in Virginia, with the theme ``Job Printing in America''. Speakers from organization such as the American Antiquarian Society, Library Company of Philadelphia, Yale University, and Colonial Williamsburg will speak on topics ranging from pre-1800 Virginia Ephemera, Benjamin Franklin's job printing, chromolithography and the cigar label, and architectural vignettes on commercial stationary. The event will feature a special torch-lit reception at Colonial Williamsburg's eighteenth-century Printing Office by the tradesmen who have dedicated their lives to the accurate recreation of the book arts trades of colonial America. A demonstration of papermaking, hand-press operation, bookbinding and gold tooling, and the production of decorative papers will be held and symposium attendees will have the opportunity to try some of these activities first hand. ***** URGENT: Please respond by September 19th!! ***** Registration fee: $150 ($250 for couples). This includes a year-long pass to all of Colonial Williamsburg's many museums, programs, and demonstrations, six formal lectures, tours of the CW library and other historic sites of interest, and a banquet dinner at the Williamsburg Woodlands hotel. For more information, sent email to BRETT@CWF.ORG, or call 518-674-2673. Brett Charbeneau, Journeyman Printer P.O. Box 1776-GHW Williamsburg Imprints Program Williamsburg, VA 23187 Colonial Williamsburg Foundation Tel: (804) 229-1000 INTERNET: BRETT@CWF.ORG FAX: (804) 220-7357 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 20:30:56 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Blair Seagram Subject: finding Zukofsky On Saturday 16 September Tom Beard wrote: Nice to have a bookshop that's even _heard_ of Zukofsky! Yes Tom, I guess it is good to have a bookstore who has heard of Zukofsky. It's also fine to be part of a list that discusses him. And I thank Herb Levy for his most informative post. I wonder how many other bookstores in New York carry Zukofsky? We know Barnes & Noble does. Perhaps if I had worded my inquiry at St Marks something along the lines, "I called this afternoon and was told you had a selection of Zukofsky in stock, but I can't seem to find him in the poetry section under Z," the whole incident would have proceeded rather differently. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 17:58:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: be advised: wcw qtd in this renga In-Reply-To: from "Jorge Guitart" at Sep 17, 95 01:37:09 pm > > On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, George Bowering wrote: > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three > > Something has changed in the nature of friendship > > But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line > > For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum > > Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs > > Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm > > feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset > > was the coarsest in Dorset, the coast sky lowering ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 17:59:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: Sheila, Chris & Jorge's Excellent Adventure >SEM-CC-JG BRANCH 9/16/95 > >in the books were dreams and in the dreams were >books.And flew > >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> (...) >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >>> >spending the bulk of closure with sentient scoops >> >> >>> >>> that fluke picnic shot out of these worlds we spread been-to >> >> >>> >> say that the center cannot hold the nose tackle much longer >> >> >>> >than a clam can sleeve out of incarceration baldly >> >> >>> go where others fear to operate the biggest donors hive >> >> >>> & where Mars collides with the small world of "It's a small world" >> >> >ripe for macroscopes to pump or slice or butterfly away >> >> from that ardent bugged heliotrope and pledge allegiance through >> > ostension--we stopped short of the shortstop stigmata >> this time pencilled in as tangly wisps instead of memory > detonations: but don't forget to dismember the doloroso pitchpipe with its squeal subtracted and the dotted-line relationships ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 18:00:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: Sheila, Chris & Jorge's Excellent Adventure >>SEM-CC-JG BRANCH 9/16/95 >> >>in the books were dreams and in the dreams were >>books.And flew > >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> (...) >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>> >spending the bulk of closure with sentient scoops >>> >> >>> >>> that fluke picnic shot out of these worlds we spread been-to >>> >> >>> >> say that the center cannot hold the nose tackle much longer >>> >> >>> >than a clam can sleeve out of incarceration baldly >>> >> >>> go where others fear to operate the biggest donors hive >>> >> >>> & where Mars collides with the small world of "It's a small world" >>> >> >ripe for macroscopes to pump or slice or butterfly away >>> >> from that ardent bugged heliotrope and pledge allegiance through >>> > ostension--we stopped short of the shortstop stigmata >>> this time pencilled in as tangly wisps instead of memory >> detonations: but don't forget to dismember the doloroso >I left in the rain by mistake whilst on business vocation hollering newmown platitudes to headsets painted blue and waffle colored ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 18:01:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: Sheila, Chris & Jorge's Excellent Adventure >> >SEM-CC-JG BRANCH 9/16/95 J adding to C >in the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.And flew >spending the bulk of closure with sentient scoops >that fluke picnic shot out of these worlds we spread been-to >say that the center cannot hold the nose tackle much longer >than a clam can sleeve out of incarceration baldly >go where others fear to operate the biggest donors hive >& where Mars collides with the small world of "It's a small world" >ripe for macroscopes to pump or slice or butterfly away >from that ardent bugged heliotrope and pledge allegiance through >ostension--we stopped short of the shortstop's stigmata >this time pencilled in as tangly wisps instead of memory >detonations: but don't forget to dismember the doloroso >I left in the rain by mistake whilst on business vocation >the night I told you to stop referring to me as Ontology Boy and you replied all shrouded in epistemology that it was glue we lacked ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 18:02:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Jonathan Yardley In-Reply-To: <5EFC2403E0@fagan.uncg.edu> from "H. T. KIRBY-SMITH" at Sep 17, 95 09:05:45 am Hey, in Vancouver, McDonald's DOES serve quiche. And you can get little action figures of poets. This week you can get Bruce Andrews, Norma Cole, Steve Mccaffery and Aram Saroyan. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 18:10:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: be advised: wcw qtd in this renga >On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, George Bowering wrote: > >> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three >> Something has changed in the nature of friendship >> But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line >> For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum >> Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs >> Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm >> feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 20:00:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: LZ & bookshop vagaries Charles Smith muses: >Sad to say, but the only store here in Sacramento to carry any LZ is Barnes & >Noble; they've had _A_ on the shelf for almost a year. They're also the only >store here to have carried Susan Howe's _Non-Conformist's Memorial_ & Michael >Palmer's _At Passages_. Hate to support 'em, but . . . > Sobin's _Breath >Burials_ & Joris' Celan translations weren't to be found anywhere in Sac or >Berkeley (Cody's does stock the Talisman _Selected_) & I had to special order >them (just came in yesterday). What gives? Bookstores are just as chickenshit as commercial radio stations, that's what. They won't carry anything unless someone can guarantee them X amount of sales, and they won't take any chances without that guarantee. Poetry, of all types but always especially that poetry considered "avant-garde" or "experimental", has proven remarkably ineffective as a consumer good, since you can't just consume it and move on (you have to live and grow with it), so it doesn't fit well into the marketing schema. Look for this trend to get worse over the next few years, as wealth further concentrates in the hands of fewer and fewer and bigger and bigger corporations. btw, I got my Joris Celan translation at City Lights, but even that store doesn't seem to be as good as it used to be. Steve ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 23:26:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Re: Benson address Tony, I don't have Benson's address but someone on this list must. I will go to the ear but have not put hours of work in. Jeff Hull did the schedule which I forwarded to the list. You can email him at: harbor_rat@aol.com Bill Luoma ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 23:16:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix... oN Sep 15 Jorge Guitart wrote: On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Thomas Bell wrote: > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured > the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 23:57:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: milk Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 18:02:24 -0700 From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Jonathan Yardley Hey, in Vancouver, McDonald's DOES serve quiche. And you can get little action figures of poets. This week you can get Bruce Andrews, Norma Cole, Steve Mccaffery and Aram Saroyan. In 1983, when I went to Rochester to teach for a year (but place is obliterated) I went into a McDonald's, this was along about when one heard that the shakes were 100% plastic, and the placemat on the tray tole me the shakes were "made w real milk." Only Real was capitalized & had a TM sign appended to it. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 02:28:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Bruce Andrews Barbie Doll You wrote: > >Hey, in Vancouver, McDonald's DOES serve quiche. And you can get >little action figures of poets. This week you can get Bruce Andrews, >Norma Cole, Steve Mccaffery and Aram Saroyan. > One can only envision (in horror) what a Bruce Andrews action toy would DO... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 10:23:17 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Benson address Sorry, trashed the name of the searcher: Steve Benson 507 Coteskill Road Stone Ridge NY 12484 don't know how long it'll take to reach you. There does seem to be a protracted time lag much of the time. love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 10:23:26 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: Sheila, Cris & Jorge's Excellent Adventure >>> >SEM-CC-JG BRANCH 18/9/95 C adding to S >>in the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.And flew >>spending the bulk of closure with sentient scoops >>that fluke picnic shot out of these worlds we spread been-to >>say that the center cannot hold the nose tackle much longer >>than a clam can sleeve out of incarceration baldly >>go where others fear to operate the biggest donors hive >>& where Mars collides with the small world of "It's a small world" >>ripe for macroscopes to pump or slice or butterfly away >>from that ardent bugged heliotrope and pledge allegiance through >>ostension--we stopped short of the shortstop's stigmata >>this time pencilled in as tangly wisps instead of memory >>detonations: but don't forget to dismember the doloroso >>I left in the rain by mistake whilst on business vocation >>the night I told you to stop referring to me as Ontology Boy >and you replied all shrouded in epistemology that it was glue we lacked "ckab oups frert cdl-fdl!!" with elvis projecting "uhhhh, I'm all stuck ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 10:17:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: jonathan yardley I appreciate the interest several of you have taken on the list, or backchannel, on my letter rebutting Jonathan Yardley. Regarding Jorge's request to post the letter, the letter itself does not provide that much information that an audience like this on the poetics list needs--the points it makes would be for you all pretty much obvious. I will say this: Yardley's argument is threefold; there are no good writers of literature in the U.S. right now. This is true because writers have no interest in audiences. They have no interest in audiences because their large academic salaries and huge arts subsidies make them self-indulgent. It is, of course, an argument typical of the desire to undermine arts funding here in D.C. The last paragraph of my letter reads as follows: The problem with Yardley is that he ignores literary culture on the one hand and attacks it on the other. He is thus a perfect example of the isolated, institutionalized writer he pretends to disdain, responsible to a paycheck that comes not from any audience but from a powerful media conglomerate. He is a critic who attacks what he doesn't understand. Thanks again to Carolyn, Jorge and others for their interest. mark wallace ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 07:45:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: hearing Zukofsky In the course of some back channel correspondence with Blair Seagram re: Zukofsky I remembered hearing about multi-voice performances of "A"-24 with the Handel music either in San Francisco or Vancouver (or both). Does anyone have corroborating information about this? If the performance(s) did occur, were they taped? &, yes, I remember my earlier posts regarding non-commercial recordings, etc. Bests Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 09:48:18 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: hearing Zukofsky As a follow up to Herb's request for info--anyone know of audio or video recordings of Zukofsky? How I might listen/watch? I'll be teaching Zukofsky later this semester & would like to share his reading of some poems with the class. Thanks. Hank Lazer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 11:05:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Re: Bruce Andrews Barbie Doll >>One can only envision (in horror) what a Bruce Andrews >>action toy would DO... A Bruce Andrews action toy would of course come with a detachable ordnance harnessing mass linguistic destruction capability unit. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 11:22:32 EST Reply-To: dgolumbia@iddis.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Golumbia Subject: Re: finding Zukofsky St. Marks used to be better than it is. Gotham's more than a bit hostile to L. poetry, except as it relates to Black Mountain, etc. schools (seems to me). But on the plus side, the Upper West Side Shakespeare & Co. actually had (has?) the Joris Celan *on display*! And on a trip to Philadelphia a couple of days ago, Borders had: two Coolidge, three Hejinian (I picked up THE CELL, which I find perfect), one each of Raworth, Perelman, S. Howe, R. Waldrop, Jabes, etc. Admittedly all Sun & Moon (but for the Perelman?), but still very nice. Although their journal selection's gone down, whereas the Upper West Side Papyrus had not only DENVER QUARTERLY & NEW AMERICAN WRITING but also LINGO & the Watten issue of AERIAL. So while it could be better, it seems to me, it could also be a LOT worse ... -- dgolumbia@iddis.com David Golumbia ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 12:12:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: you & whose army? there wasn't enough, herb, it was a glaze. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 12:11:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: you & why an army? charles: i'm not sure that "postmodern pastiche of time" has the interest/use it did a few years ago, but that's another issue. as to the other: reading wcw (or keats) is not out of the question; but wcw is like trolley cars: a different world. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 09:31:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Graham John Sharpe Subject: Pergolesi while the music chatter which has been on the list has generally concerned itself with Hole and other fine artists, i thot there might be a classical enthusiast out there who can help me place Pergolesi. After seeing Baryshnikov's *White Oak Dance Project* the other night i'm desperate to know if one would consider Pergolesi to be Baroque. i suppose it depends on how you define Baroque. Deleuze calls Baroque music "what can extract harmony from melody" but having taken drama class over music class in my early years, this is lost on me. any takers? cause my Amadeus Soundtrack booklet doesnt help me much. unmusically yours, g-sharpe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 12:25:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: you & an army of mixed metaphors and forgotten half-truths... various things, jeffery, too much for here, but at least (1) unpack wcw's rhetoric: it trivializes much poetry. wcw "clarity" entails doing less, not better. (2) let's retire "avant-garde." see jackson mac low on this. it's a military line. -ed ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 12:28:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: you & an army of mixed metaphors and forgotten half-truths... as for emerson in wcw, yes, but reduced somewhat. thoreau, perhaps, in quality of attention. but rimbaud is the key, tho when he reached his paterson, he dealt in guns (true avant-garde) not medicine. wcw is less "american" than he'd think. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 12:32:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster can't agree re: paterson; it's been bulldozed, urban renewal; wcw's city isn't any more than small new england towns, where bob is. oh, the envy. probably has a boat, too (it's maine), tho not rimbaud's. ya, wcw should've stayed there! -ed ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 12:35:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: you & what army now, it's asphodel! oh, lord, that's a tiresome poem, but such a grand gesture when you've spent your life cheating on the one you praise. talk about mending fences. too bad wcw wasn't catholic; the priest would've told him ya gotta do more. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 12:45:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: you & whose army? no, burt, nothing to do with relevance, nothing to do with being picked over. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 12:42:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: you & whose army? ya still can't do it, burt, tho i recommend a good porter (ron porter?); we've been working on it, and we'll thro in a grape or two, for you. so how's the technology biz? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 11:31:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Yardarms, etc. In-Reply-To: <199509180357.UAA25747@sparta.SJSU.EDU> hadn't known about Yardley's previous incarnation yet farther south -- in recent years he has sprouted an esitional, editorial column in addition to his book review page -- and both are increasingly given to neocon drivel of the most uninformed sort -- it's particularly depressing to find a long-time book pager so freqently making negative remarks about books he has not read -- It's one thing to profess an inability to "get" a particular genre (as I, for example, just don't get grunge -- find it, in fact, not that grungy) -- another thing to, as Yardley did (and David McAleavey did write a letter to the editor which was actually published explaining just what was found wanting in Mr, Y's logic at the time!) use such powers as a page columnist has to promote the idea that "nobody" knows what's good in poetry anymore (sound familiar? a bit corny, prehaps?) and that we'd all be better off just ignoring the stuff -- "esitional"?? try additional-- This was shortly after the LA Times had abandoned poetry reviewing, but they did begin to publish a poem in each week's book review, and have now, with no mention of their curious earlier editorial position, returned to the reviewing of verse -- My one and only experience reviewing poetry for the _WAsh Post__ wasn't encouraging -- they asked me to review books by Dove and Bronk -- which I did -- they then typoed a line in the Dove review so that instead of her line mentioning "gum popping" girls it read "gun popping" -- despite the fact that they had changed my correct copy, the POST printed no correction -- can't help wondering if the proof-reading gnomes at the POST would have let such an error through if the line had made reference to young white girls -- maybe I'm paranoid, but my old colleague Sterling Brown used to tell his students "any black man who isn't paranoid is crazy!" I have ever since dreaded meeting Ms. Dove for fear she will remember this and think it my mistake -- Yardley loves the work of Peter Taylor, with reason, and despises the likes of Don DeLillo, Joseph McElroy, etc. -- seems there is much he can't read -- I hereby volunteer to write a weekly review for the _Washington Post_ at half Yardley's salary -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 18:15:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: hearing Zukofsky hank: how about the NET (c. 1965) program on z. i figure sf state has a tape of it. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 18:57:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Sheila, Chris & Jorge's Excellent Adventure In-Reply-To: <199509180059.RAA16467@bob.indirect.com> On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >SEM-CC-JG BRANCH 9/18/95 > > > >in the books were dreams and in the dreams were > >books.And flew > >> >>> >> > >> >> >>> >> (...) > >> >> >>> >> > >> >> >>> >>> >spending the bulk of closure with sentient scoops > >> >> >>> >>> that fluke picnic shot out of these worlds we spread been-to > >> >> >>> >> say that the center cannot hold the nose tackle much longer > >> >> >>> >than a clam can sleeve out of incarceration baldly > >> >> >>> go where others fear to operate the biggest donors hive > >> >> >>> & where Mars collides with the small world of "It's a small world" > >> >> >ripe for macroscopes to pump or slice or butterfly away > >> >> from that ardent bugged heliotrope and pledge allegiance through > >> > ostension--we stopped short of the shortstop stigmata > >> this time pencilled in as tangly wisps instead of memory > > detonations: but don't forget to dismember the doloroso > pitchpipe with its squeal subtracted and the dotted-line relationships and sing "I Love Time but I love Your Spatial Simulacra Much More" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 19:00:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Sheila, Chris & Jorge's Excellent Adventure In-Reply-To: <199509180100.SAA16499@bob.indirect.com> On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >>SEM-CC-JG BRANCH 9/18/95 > >> > >>in the books were dreams and in the dreams were > >>books.And flew > >> >>> >> > >>> >> >>> >> (...) > >>> >> >>> >> > >>> >> >>> >>> >spending the bulk of closure with sentient scoops > >>> >> >>> >>> that fluke picnic shot out of these worlds we spread been-to > >>> >> >>> >> say that the center cannot hold the nose tackle much longer > >>> >> >>> >than a clam can sleeve out of incarceration baldly > >>> >> >>> go where others fear to operate the biggest donors hive > >>> >> >>> & where Mars collides with the small world of "It's a small world" > >>> >> >ripe for macroscopes to pump or slice or butterfly away > >>> >> from that ardent bugged heliotrope and pledge allegiance through > >>> > ostension--we stopped short of the shortstop stigmata > >>> this time pencilled in as tangly wisps instead of memory > >> detonations: but don't forget to dismember the doloroso > >I left in the rain by mistake whilst on business vocation > hollering newmown platitudes to headsets painted blue and waffle colored > earth colored fire colored i have this thing against water colored ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 16:31:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Watts Subject: Re: hearing Zukofsky In-Reply-To: <5FF77F06EA7@as.ua.edu> from "Hank Lazer" at Sep 18, 95 09:48:18 am I know of two recordings of Zukofsky that are commercially available, Hank. One is a video recording, from the NET Outtake series from _USA: Poetry_, produced by KQED in San Francisco 1965-66. It includes parts of "A"-9, a section from "Catullus," a discussion of James Joyce, Whitman, Pound and Bunting; I've seen it -- shown it at the Western Front here in Vancouver -- it's wonderful; it's a half hour on 3/4" video, available from The American Poetry Archives, The Poetry Center, San Francisco State University, 1600 Holloway Ave., San Francisco CA 94132, tel (415) 338-1056. The tape is available for sale at $125 plus shipping & tax; or for rent at $15 per public showing + shipping & tax. There's also an audio tape from Spoken Arts, Inc., in the "Spoken Arts Treasury of American Jewish Poets Reading Their Poems." The tape with Zukofsky on it is Volume II, and also features Lenore Marshall, Stanley Kunitz, Hy Sobiloff, and Karl Shapiro. Zukofsky reads "A"-12, "Spooks Sabbath," "Songs of Degree," "Nor Did the Prophet," "As to How Much," "An Incident," "The Record," "Song 22," and "Mantis." Write to Spoken Arts, Inc., Box 289, New Rochelle, NY 10801. I don't know how much, but it's a cassette tape; I doubt it's much. Herb, a Vancouver group called the Cassation Group did some performances of "A"-24 in the late eighties both here at SFU and at the Western Front. So far as I know, it wasn't recorded at SFU unless the group did it themselves; but may have been recorded at the Front; I'll try to check. Ron, didn't a group including Barrett Watten do a performance in SF? Best, Charles Watts ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 16:49:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: you & why an army? In-Reply-To: <01HVF5XCLVTE8WZ2H8@VAXC.STEVENS-TECH.EDU> from "Edward Foster" at Sep 18, 95 12:11:10 pm I still dont get Foster's point. Why is WCW dissed as boring because he lived in an earlier time? Like, when do we cut poets off our reading list? When trolley cars were no longer? 30 years after the poet's death? Does a middling poet get points up because she can fog a mirror with breath? I'm going thru my Earlier Collected Poems and updating Williams's poems now. I have him driving a 1989 Toyota Tercel. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 17:04:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix... In-Reply-To: <199509180616.XAA29178@well.com> from "Thomas Bell" at Sep 17, 95 11:16:00 pm On sep 18 Hortense Callisher wrote:> > oN Sep 15 Jorge Guitart wrote: > > On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Thomas Bell wrote: In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes glowering from yon poetry magazine, fish on their breath, ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 21:06:21 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Blair Seagram Subject: St Marks not dead yet On Saturday 16 September, Tenney Nathanson wrote: too bad about St. Marks. There was a period in the eighties when it was just amazing: small stock, but nothing you didn't want to buy & read; lots of stuff not available or not prominently displayed in much bigger bookstores. MIght be worth one more try before writing off. Actually I always found Gotham kind of fustian and annoying.... Dear Tenney: I may rant about St Marks Bookshop but it in no way means I will not return, even though it may be some months before I do so. If, for instance, I wanted a book by Bernadette Mayer, St Marks would be the first place I would check, which may be a mark of my ignorance, I don't know. That said, if I had been treated with a little more civility, I may have stayed around, checked out, and possibly purchased other books in the store, which would have benefited St Marks, the authors they carry, and me. I should also mention that when St Marks was located around the corner, in their old location, it felt better to be there. I congratulate them on there expansion, but frankly, the new store doesn't grab me the way the old one did. Today I ordered "Bottom: on Shakespeare" from Gotham. They were quick on the uptake, and I don't much feel like changing my position on them, but I will say they did seem to rush me through my order. Maybe I had your comment in mind. Best wishes, blair ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 21:14:28 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Blair Seagram Subject: typo on St Marks I congratulate them on there expansion. Whoops, that should be 'their' expansion ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 21:42:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David McAleavey Subject: Re: Yardarms, etc. In-Reply-To: Al Nielsen is kind to recall my earlier response to Yardley's earlier popping of his gums. I was tempted to go through the process again this time, but finally was deterred by my recollecting that all the _Post_ cares about is agitating its readers -- I don't think it matters to them what Yardley's opinions are; if he gets attention, he has won. Now if Mark and I can only figure out a way to persuade the paper to send the guy back to his roots, wherever they may be, maybe Al you _could_ join us back here in this not-so-dull swamp! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 19:18:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: hearing Zukofsky Let's see just how bad my memory is. Bob Perelman, I believe, produced a series of performances of "A"-24 in 1978. Steve Benson and Carla Harryman also participated. My visual memory tells me that one performance was at the Grand Piano, the coffee house series I ran with Tom Mandel, but others I believe were done at SF State and UC Davis. I recall being struck that the performances were more inspired than the score (but the theatrical in LZ--and CZ--has never been my meat: "Rudens" strikes me as the weakest section of "A"). One thing worth noting: the use of Handel made it impossible to perform the text "naturally" (it goes too slowly to be spoken), which brought forward the constructed nature of the language. It was, as they say, a revelation. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 22:22:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Re: hearing Zukofsky Herb, A-24 was first performed, I believe, by Harryman, Watten, Hejinian and Kit Robinson in the early 80s. I used to have a tape of it which I walk-personed every day and night to learn the part of drama by heart. I believe Brad Westbrook, the curator at the UCSD archive for new poetry, got me the tape. Also, the SF State archive probably has a copy, as do the performing poets. Anyway, he and I and two other folks (Becky Roberts & Chuck Cody) then performed A-24, once to a piano at the Pannikin in Del Mar and once to a harpsicard at Mandible Hall on campus, a few years after the high L-folks. Again, Brad is probably the best source of a recording of those pieces, as I appear to have lost my copies . . . Bill Luoma ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 19:23:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: hearing Zukofsky SF State has both audio and visual recordings. The visual ones are from Dick Moore's Poetry USA series. It was via this PBS series that I first heard of Zukofsky, was blown away (totally!) by him and rushed out to buy anything I could find at Cody's--which proved only to be the Robert Kelly/Paris Leary anthology (a pretty great book after all these years!), which in turn led to my first reading of Mac Low and a serious rethinking of Spicer (with a far better selection than in the Allen) and O'Hara's Biotherm in the smallest font size ever. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 22:30:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Distribution or Bust One of the few rules on Poetics@UBVM is that participants (lurkers and not) are requested to post news of their recent publications, together with information on how best to get these items. It has come to my attention that some of you are out-of-compliance with this "don't balk/must tell" rule. The fuller the listings (table of contents, etc) the better. If you are a publisher and editor and have new material on the EPC, it is still useful to post it on Poetics as well, since many of the subscribers either don't have Web access, don't use it, or don't check new listings. This is may also be a way to compensate for the recurring distribution and bookstore problems discussed here. On Bookstores: Problem with the New York bookstores discussed here is that even if they carry a new poetry book they rarely re-order, or re-order so erratically that you can never count on finding a book, even a recent book, in stock. This is why the sales rep system is so crucial, since the initial order of a new book is ultimately the one that will determine if the book gets any bookstore life in New York at all. So if you don't find a book, it's possible that it was ordered and sold out; the books in stock are often the ones that didn't sell. In the 70s and 80s, when I used to pester these stores to carry specific books and magazines, I always felt getting shelf space was like getting a gallery show; "naturally" places like Gotham and Books & Co. felt having the books in the store was enough, they certainly didn't have to pay you for what they sold too! (In my experience, St. Mark's always paid. But they were the exception.) At the same time, the real estate costs in New York are so high that it is _probably_ not possible to survive with the sort of commitments to poetry many of us look for in a bookstore; I say probably because people do manage to figure out how to do improbable things, as any number of our alternative poetry institutions show. I don't buy books in New York, preferring to buy direct from the publishers, or from SPD, but most often from Talking Leaves Books (which in turn buys them from SPD). Talking Leaves remains my favorite poetry bookshop and I have been talking with the coop owners there about working directly with the Poetics list and EPC: setting up accounts, taking order via e-mail, and so on. So you should be hearing more about that soon (though as they are understaffed and have limited access to computer technology that this is taking longer than they would like). (In the meantime, they are happy to take orders by phone or mail: 3158 Main Street, Buffalo, NY 14214; 716-837-8554; fax--837-3861.) As has been noted by others on this list and off, bookstores like Talking Leaves and Woodland Pattern are always in danger and need the same sort of support we give to small presses and SPD and indeed other poets: we are all in it together. The Internet and the Web are becoming increasingly central for poetry distribution, even if as yet many of the readers of the books often discussed on this list are not on-line. At this point, I see one of the primary values of the EPC and the Poetics List as facilitating the distribution of print books and magazines rather than (not as opposed to) making work available electronically. I see many parallels with the work I did on Segue's distribution catalog in the 70s and 80s and the work on the EPC now. We can't afford to have the Net "replacing" bookstores, publishers and distributors that support new and "alternative" poetry: that would be a net loss, indeed. We have to find way to use the Net to help these institutions survive. To this end, listings and short reviews/discussions on Poetics of new work become a mode of distribution. About 15 years ago my continually new friend Cris Cheek prepared, on his manual typewriter, an extensive list of UK small press publications, carefully annotated with prices and address, issued as supplement #2 of L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E. I'm reminded of that because the EPC and this list seem such a good place for the sort of exchange of information and ideas among the UK, US, New Zealand, Canada, and Australia. And while we talk about the lack of information between N. American poets and U.K. poets, it's been my sense that at least in the particular world represented by those of us "here" that, in a small way, this is beginning to take care of itself just as we talk about it. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 21:29:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Galen Cope Subject: Re: Distribution or Bust ok, i'll follow the rules If you are interested in receiving DIU, send a subscription request which says SUBSCRIBE DIU-L your name to listserv@cnsibm.albany.edu you'll be asked to confirm this request detailed instructions are given still performing via the logic of snowflakes of given season. all DIU transmissions archived at the Electronic Poetry Center on the University at Buffalo Web-server: http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/ezines/diu contribute to DIU via e-mail to cf2785@cnsvax.albany.edu thank you! -and- 'Only A Cage Should Be In A Cage' by H.D. Moe is the most recent publication from We Press available for $7 from We Press POBox 1503 Santa Cruz, CA 95061 (408) 427-9711 Thanks! -Stephen Cope ps- hope this isn't all repeat... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 21:57:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix... >oN Sep 15 Jorge Guitart wrote: > >On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Thomas Bell wrote: > >> >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured >> the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is >Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes who pester as obsession or a hobby or as fraction of a prayer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 22:06:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix... > On sep 18 Hortense Callisher wrote:> >> oN Sep 15 Jorge Guitart wrote: >> >> On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Thomas Bell wrote: > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured >the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is >Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes >glowering from yon poetry magazine, fish on their breath, attachments lingering toward broadcast, all privacy a heavy (breathy) minus sign ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 22:08:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: Sheila, Chris & Jorge's Excellent Adventure >On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >> >>SEM-CC-JG BRANCH 9/18/95 >> >> >> >>in the books were dreams and in the dreams were >> >>books.And flew > >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >>> >> (...) >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >>> >>> >spending the bulk of closure with sentient scoops >> >>> >> >>> >>> that fluke picnic shot out of these worlds we spread been-to >> >>> >> >>> >> say that the center cannot hold the nose tackle much longer >> >>> >> >>> >than a clam can sleeve out of incarceration baldly >> >>> >> >>> go where others fear to operate the biggest donors hive >> >>> >> >>> & where Mars collides with the small world of "It's a small world" >> >>> >> >ripe for macroscopes to pump or slice or butterfly away >> >>> >> from that ardent bugged heliotrope and pledge allegiance through >> >>> > ostension--we stopped short of the shortstop stigmata >> >>> this time pencilled in as tangly wisps instead of memory >> >> detonations: but don't forget to dismember the doloroso >> >I left in the rain by mistake whilst on business vocation >> hollering newmown platitudes to headsets painted blue and waffle colored >> earth colored fire colored i have this thing against water colored therefore elemental-painted playthings cost a dear shined copper looking ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 01:08:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: Yardarms, etc. Posted on: America Online (using MAC) D.G. wrote: >And on a trip to Philadelphia a couple of days ago, Borders had: two >Coolidge, three Hejinian (I picked up THE CELL, which I find perfect), >one each of Raworth, Perelman, S. Howe, R. Waldrop, Jabes, etc. Admittedly all Sun & Moon (but for the Perelman?), but still >very nice. A I work in a store which carries pretty much everything in print by all of the authors mentioned above (maybe not Coolidge, but we do have space limitations, i.e. 12 of his books may be enough). By L.Z. we have Bottom, the Collected Shorter, A, & L.Z.: Man & Poet. Borders buys in bulk, they made a decision to sell SUN & MOON, not any of their authors. It's a question of one person, in this case me, giving a damn & showing, over time, that poetry will be supported when made available. The reason St Mark's isn't what they were is they lost their small press buyer in '88. I'd still go there over Borders or B.&N. no matter how grouchy the guy in the back is-- & I'm pretty sure I've encountered him, similar vibe to the bartender at the Ear. But are you REALLY a New Yorker if you're not creatively rude on a fairly regular basis. Back to business-- I think it's increasingly clear the corporations are winning-- we'll all be making $4.26 an hour soon enough. Have to disagree w/ David M. about Yardley, he wrote: >all the _Post_ cares about is agitating its readers -- I don't think it matters >to them what Yardley's opinions are; if he gets attention, he >has won. Of course you're right that they know he'll make some mainstream readers of fiction/poetry mad, but I can't imagine them hiring say, Angela Davis, or A.L. Nielsen for that matter, to write on literature just because they'd "get attention." For those curious abt the store mentioned above: it's Bridge Street Books, 2814 Pennsylvania Ave NW, Washington, DC 20007. Ph-- 202 965 5200, e-mail orders to me. --Rod ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 22:11:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: Sheila, Chris & Jorge's Excellent Adventure JG wrote: >On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >> >SEM-CC-JG BRANCH 9/18/95 >> > >> >in the books were dreams and in the dreams were >> >books.And flew > >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>> >> (...) >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> >spending the bulk of closure with sentient scoops >> >> >> >>> >>> that fluke picnic shot out of these worlds we spread been-to >> >> >> >>> >> say that the center cannot hold the nose tackle much longer >> >> >> >>> >than a clam can sleeve out of incarceration baldly >> >> >> >>> go where others fear to operate the biggest donors hive >> >> >> >>> & where Mars collides with the small world of "It's a small world" >> >> >> >ripe for macroscopes to pump or slice or butterfly away >> >> >> from that ardent bugged heliotrope and pledge allegiance through >> >> > ostension--we stopped short of the shortstop stigmata >> >> this time pencilled in as tangly wisps instead of memory >> > detonations: but don't forget to dismember the doloroso >> pitchpipe with its squeal subtracted and the dotted-line relationships >and sing "I Love Time but I love Your Spatial Simulacra Much More" for the brevity inferred and for the latchkey touch more like a feather drizzling ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 22:17:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Zuk et al In-Reply-To: <199509190503.WAA01786@sparta.SJSU.EDU> Hank -- if you go for the _Treasury of American Jewish Poets_ get the whole set -- it also includes Stein and Reznikoff on other tapes in the set -- well worth having to listen to the likes of Hy Sobiloff to get to these! The set was originally distributed by Spoken Arts Inc. -- but is also available through other distribution agencies -- also worth your while is the Watershed Oppen tape, circa 1979 -- some univ. libraries have these tapes -- so look close to home before buying -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 22:21:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: WCW Trolley In-Reply-To: <199509190503.WAA01786@sparta.SJSU.EDU> well, you may recall that the tracks were all ripped up by the tire companies in conspiracy with GM -- & look where that has gotten us -- now major cities everywhere are re-introducing the trolley -- just when you thought it was good only for getting tourists from one quaint photo op to another! Not that you'd want to _live_ on a trolley -- but it will get you where you need to go faster than you can say "Marianne Moore." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 22:44:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Dangerous poets? In the 9/18 _New Yorker_ David Remnick asks (re: Ben Bradlee) "Who is interested in a 'dangerous' editor?" Dangerous here refers to not fitting in with the blandness and sameness of co-opted commercial media. While I do have my own thoughts on this, I would be interested in thoughts on: What is a "dangerous" poet? Who is the last one we've had? Has that person had an effect on the way we live (or don't live)? Possibly also of some interest in re: _Post_ ?review? Tom tbjn@well.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 23:15:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Spike it On Sep 18 Sheila Murphypemned >oN Sep 15 Jorge Guitart wrote: > >On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Thomas Bell wrote: > >> >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured >> the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is >Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes >who pester as obsession or a hobby or as fraction of a prayer fractalized and enfolded into into times_The wraping ugly danger ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 10:16:08 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R I Caddel Subject: Re: Pergolesi In-Reply-To: <199509190507.GAA17149@tucana.dur.ac.uk> I wonder who else has picked this up while I lay sleeping... Pergolesi (1710-36) certainly lived at the time of "high baroque" composition, and yes, he outlined chordal (harmonic) structures in his melodies - but who doesn't? It's damned difficult not to. I'd say that the way he stripped down the counterpoint (one of the defininging elements of, say, Bach Handel or Scarlatti) to a bare minimum, and supported his tunes with almost Phil Spector block harmony, places him closer to the early classical composers. Who in fact rated him very highly, years after his death. People tell me that the claims made for his "Stabat Mater" are extravagant: but to hell with them - there's a brooding, melodramatic religious depth in it which I'm a sucker for, and which you don't get again until Mozart's big c minor mass (also driven by Italian opera) at the end of the eighteenth century. Of course, there's a lot of other stuff which doesn't fit that pattern - early work (! in a very short career) and chamber music which are far more run-of-the-mill. I seem to recall there are some concerti grossi which have just been ascribed to him which Vivaldi would've killed for... xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx x x x Richard Caddel, E-mail: R.I.Caddel @ durham.ac.uk x x Durham University Library, Phone: 0191 374 3044 x x Stockton Rd. Durham DH1 3LY Fax: 0191 374 7481 x x x x "Words! Pens are too light. Take a chisel to write." x x - Basil Bunting x x x xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 07:56:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: publications/anagram In-Reply-To: <01HVFRXVO4FO8XSTHT@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu> AGAINST FORGETTING (the anthology) anagrams to "stinging a frog teat." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 08:22:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: be advised: wcw qtd in this renga In-Reply-To: <199509180110.SAA16633@bob.indirect.com> On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, George Bowering wrote: > > > >> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three > >> Something has changed in the nature of friendship > >> But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line > >> For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum > >> Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs > >> Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm > >> feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset > blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans on metaphors that the folks at the contagious hospital ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 08:25:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix... In-Reply-To: <199509180616.XAA29178@well.com> On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, Thomas Bell wrote: > oN Sep 15 Jorge Guitart wrote: > > On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Thomas Bell wrote: > > > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured > > the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is > Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes of Palookaville & the dead heroes of Guadalajara ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 08:32:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Sheila, Cris & Jorge's Excellent Adventure In-Reply-To: <9509181014.aa02092@post.demon.co.uk> > >>> >SEM-CC-JG BRANCH 19/9/95 J adding to C adding to S > >>in the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.And flew > >>spending the bulk of closure with sentient scoops > >>that fluke picnic shot out of these worlds we spread been-to > >>say that the center cannot hold the nose tackle much longer > >>than a clam can sleeve out of incarceration baldly > >>go where others fear to operate the biggest donors hive > >>& where Mars collides with the small world of "It's a small world" > >>ripe for macroscopes to pump or slice or butterfly away > >>from that ardent bugged heliotrope and pledge allegiance through > >>ostension--we stopped short of the shortstop's stigmata > >>this time pencilled in as tangly wisps instead of memory > >>detonations: but don't forget to dismember the doloroso > >>I left in the rain by mistake whilst on business vocation > >>the night I told you to stop referring to me as Ontology Boy > >and you replied all shrouded in epistemology that it was glue we lacked > "ckab oups frert cdl-fdl!!" with elvis projecting "uhhhh, I'm all stuck >in the epoxy I used to cement my relationship w/ Thou, the Dead Quaker ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 08:43:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Sheila, Chris & Jorge's Excellent Adventure In-Reply-To: <199509190508.WAA21685@bob.indirect.com> > > > >> >>SEM-CC-JG BRANCH 9/19/95 adding to S > >> >> > >> >>in the books were dreams and in the dreams were > >> >>books.And flew > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> >>> >> (...) > >> >>> >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> >>> >>> >spending the bulk of closure with sentient scoops > >> >>> >> >>> >>> that fluke picnic shot out of these worlds we spread been-to > >> >>> >> >>> >> say that the center cannot hold the nose tackle much longer > >> >>> >> >>> >than a clam can sleeve out of incarceration baldly > >> >>> >> >>> go where others fear to operate the biggest donors hive > >> >>> >> >>> & where Mars collides with the small world of "It's a small world" > >> >>> >> >ripe for macroscopes to pump or slice or butterfly away > >> >>> >> from that ardent bugged heliotrope and pledge allegiance through > >> >>> > ostension--we stopped short of the shortstop stigmata > >> >>> this time pencilled in as tangly wisps instead of memory > >> >> detonations: but don't forget to dismember the doloroso > >> >I left in the rain by mistake whilst on business vocation > >> hollering newmown platitudes to headsets painted blue and waffle colored > >> earth colored fire colored i have this thing against water colored > therefore elemental-painted playthings cost a dear shined copper looking > for false grit and the dogma of autonomous syntaxis overwhelmed them ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 08:47:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Sheila, Chris & Jorge's Excellent Adventure In-Reply-To: <199509190511.WAA21875@bob.indirect.com> > >> >SEM-CC-JG BRANCH 9/19/95 J adding to S > >> > > >> >in the books were dreams and in the dreams were > >> >books.And flew > >> >>> >> > >> >> >> >>> >> (...) > >> >> >> >>> >> > >> >> >> >>> >>> >spending the bulk of closure with sentient scoops > >> >> >> >>> >>> that fluke picnic shot out of these worlds we spread been-to > >> >> >> >>> >> say that the center cannot hold the nose tackle much longer > >> >> >> >>> >than a clam can sleeve out of incarceration baldly > >> >> >> >>> go where others fear to operate the biggest donors hive > >> >> >> >>> & where Mars collides with the small world of "It's a small world" > >> >> >> >ripe for macroscopes to pump or slice or butterfly away > >> >> >> from that ardent bugged heliotrope and pledge allegiance through > >> >> > ostension--we stopped short of the shortstop stigmata > >> >> this time pencilled in as tangly wisps instead of memory > >> > detonations: but don't forget to dismember the doloroso > >> pitchpipe with its squeal subtracted and the dotted-line relationships > >and sing "I Love Time but I love Your Spatial Simulacra Much More" > for the brevity inferred and for the latchkey touch more like a feather > drizzling blood of picklet beet all over the related phenomena > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 08:50:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Spike it In-Reply-To: <199509190615.XAA11161@well.com> On Mon, 18 Sep 1995, Thomas Bell wrote: > On Sep 18 Sheila Murphypemned > > >oN Sep 15 Jorge Guitart wrote: > > > >On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Thomas Bell wrote: > > > >> >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured > >> the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is > >Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes > >who pester as obsession or a hobby or as fraction of a prayer > fractalized and enfolded into into times_The wraping ugly danger of anaphoric dependence in "Arthur the Rat", the half a dozen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 09:32:30 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: you & an army of mixed metaphors and forgotten half-truths... ed, couldn't you say just a few more words about how wcw's rhetoric trivializes much poetry? burt ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 09:16:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Bookstores Borders and B&N are sucking the life out of the other bookstores here in chicago. In the last month, I think three independent stores and one chain (Crock's & Bretano's) have gone under. For almost anything I want, I go to 57th St. books and the Seminary Co-op. Their selection of poetry isn't always the greatest, or evenly distributed (two weeks ago I saw a shelf that had about ten different titles by for too and about Ginsberg, one title by Ferlingetti), but they are always helpful and have never taken more than nine days to deliver something I've ordered. _____________________________________!________________________________________ Eryque "Just call me Eric" Gleason If I weren't a monkey, there'd 71 E. 32nd St. Box 949 be problems. Chicago, IL 60616 (312) 808-6858 gleaeri@charlie.acc.iit.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 09:51:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Teachers & Writers Subject: Re: Sheila, Chris & Jorge's Excellent Adventure In-Reply-To: > > >>SEM-CC-JG BRANCH 9/18/95 > > >> > > >>in the books were dreams and in the dreams were > > >>books.And flew > >> >>> >> > > >>> >> >>> >> (...) > > >>> >> >>> >> > > >>> >> >>> >>> >spending the bulk of closure with sentient scoops > > >>> >> >>> >>> that fluke picnic shot out of these worlds we spread been-to > > >>> >> >>> >> say that the center cannot hold the nose tackle much longer > > >>> >> >>> >than a clam can sleeve out of incarceration baldly > > >>> >> >>> go where others fear to operate the biggest donors hive > > >>> >> >>> & where Mars collides with the small world of "It's a small world" > > >>> >> >ripe for macroscopes to pump or slice or butterfly away > > >>> >> from that ardent bugged heliotrope and pledge allegiance through > > >>> > ostension--we stopped short of the shortstop stigmata > > >>> this time pencilled in as tangly wisps instead of memory > > >> detonations: but don't forget to dismember the doloroso > > >I left in the rain by mistake whilst on business vocation > > hollering newmown platitudes to headsets painted blue and waffle colored > > earth colored fire colored i have this thing against water colored >hive ravenous piers for tattle I teach you as previous ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 10:44:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fred Muratori Subject: Re: Dangerous poets? > >What is a "dangerous" poet? >> >Tom >tbjn@well.com Good question, but probably not very relevant in the U.S., where writers don't pose a real political or social threat the way they do in some other countries. Poets here are dangerous only to other poets. *********************** Fred Muratori "Certain themes are incurable." (fmm1@cornell.edu) - Lyn Hejinian Reference Services Division Olin * Kroch * Uris Libraries Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853 *********************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 08:23:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Distribution 'R' Us Two short thoughts on distribution: Even in a city without a store like Woodland Pattern, Talking Leaves, Bridge Street, it still makes sense to find an independent local store and order through them. Any small book store needs the business, even if they don't specialize in poetry. &, eventually, they will start to be more adventurous. Last week when I went to order the Joris/Rothenberg anthology I was told "Oh, I thought you'd want that when I saw it from the rep - I ordered a couple for stock too." Granted they'll never have the depth or breadth of a specialty shop, but they've learned that they can sell some things they didn't know about before, & that's the only way independent book stores can stay in business these days. & it beats going from Borders to Tower to Barnes & Noble, trying to second-guess this week's corporate policies any day. Another thing that can increase the distribution of "this kind of" poetry is to make purchase requests at libraries. They won't buy everything (& the selections can seem frustratingly arbitrary), but library buyers are overwhelmed with options & frequently just need an excuse to make a choice. If few people are requesting books (&, even at academic libraries, most people don't), you could make a real mark on a library's poetry collection. The University of Washington, where I just have an alumni borrowers card buys two-thirds to three-quarters of what I request, even though there's rarely any courses that deal with any of it. If everyone on this list did this, it'd increase sales by a significant number of copies & make the work available to lots more people without costing anyone "here" anything but a little extra time once a month or so. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 11:30:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: WCW Trolley reintroduce trolleys? i don't know aldon; that sounds what we went thru w/ reagan. here in my sleazy hometown, they're reintroducing trolleys, and corps. are rushing over the river from n.y. no, the answer for the millenium is not: bring back wcw. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 11:24:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: you & why an army? ummmm. . . well, doesn't it have to do with how you read whom you read? you can read bryant but as history; his words and language aren't ours. wcw is typewriters and trolleys. painters survived g. o'k. wcw is not gospel. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 11:41:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: you & an army of mixed metaphors and forgotten half-truths... i was referring to the passage quoted from wcw and suggesting that if you unpack it you find that it eliminates or questions ways of speaking--gnostic utterance for one. no? which irritates. a little too unitarian (?), or clarity thru elimination. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 11:54:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: you & an army of mixed metaphors and forgotten half-truths... specifically, burt: we are told the passage comes from wcw: ok, in that case, we have to ask, now, why "nature" [whatever that meant, then] should not be "an accessory to a particular theory," why not be "blind" to what wcw called "the world"? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 09:05:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: or or (the or or!? the or or!?) >Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 21:14:28 -0800 >From: Blair Seagram >Subject: typo on St Marks > > I congratulate them on there expansion. > >Whoops, that should be 'their' expansion or "that there" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 18:16:26 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "W. Northcutt" Subject: Hep me! I need addresses. Dear Feller-lurkers: Some of my collegues at Erlangen, Germany are translating and assembling in an anthology of American poets--including Ron Silliman and Chas Bernstein, whom, they tell me, have already given they're permission. They're having some difficulties locating others for permissions, so if any of you have addresses for the following, I'd appreciate it if you could email them to me at william.northcutt@uni-bayreuth.de Okay, here they are: Ginsberg Snyder Levertov Ashbery Merwin and Rothenberg Thanks in advance, William Northcutt ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 10:44:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kit Robinson Subject: A24 Reply to: A24 Herb, As Ron & Bill say, A24 was performed at the Grand Piano coffee house in SF, at SF State for the Poetry Center, and at UC Davis in a small recording studio. I don't know if the Grand Piano gig was taped. The SF State performance was videotaped, but the best performance & recording was done at UC Davis. The cast: Bob Perelman - piano Barrett Watten - poem Lyn Hejinian - story Carla Harryman & Steve Benson - play Kit Robinson - essay I wonder if the American Poetry Archive has a copy of the UC Davis tape. Laura? Kit ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 13:35:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Marshall H. Reese" Subject: Zukofsky videotape in fact there is another Louis Zukofsky videotape kicking about and it is located in the Milton Eisenhower library at Johns Hopkins University. Hugh Kenner I believe had invited Zukofsky to read and here is the record of him reading, I believe A-22 and -23... as a video, regretably, it's not so good -- i.e., very wide shots and a table lamp w/ shade infront of the camera... but as a document, it's good and the audio quality is also good... i don't know anything about the availability but it's there... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 12:35:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Sheila, Chris & Jorge's Excellent Adventure In-Reply-To: On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Teachers & Writers wrote: > > > >>SEM-CC-JG BRANCH 9/18/95 > > > >> > > > >>in the books were dreams and in the dreams were > > > >>books.And flew > >> >>> >> > > > >>> >> >>> >> (...) > > > >>> >> >>> >> > > > >>> >> >>> >>> >spending the bulk of closure with sentient scoops > > > >>> >> >>> >>> that fluke picnic shot out of these worlds we spread been-to > > > >>> >> >>> >> say that the center cannot hold the nose tackle much longer > > > >>> >> >>> >than a clam can sleeve out of incarceration baldly > > > >>> >> >>> go where others fear to operate the biggest donors hive > > > >>> >> >>> & where Mars collides with the small world of "It's a small world" > > > >>> >> >ripe for macroscopes to pump or slice or butterfly away > > > >>> >> from that ardent bugged heliotrope and pledge allegiance through > > > >>> > ostension--we stopped short of the shortstop stigmata > > > >>> this time pencilled in as tangly wisps instead of memory > > > >> detonations: but don't forget to dismember the doloroso > > > >I left in the rain by mistake whilst on business vocation > > > hollering newmown platitudes to headsets painted blue and waffle colored > > > earth colored fire colored i have this thing against water colored > >hive ravenous piers for tattle I teach you as previous propagation that you were in conflict with my treshhold for treshholds, so get ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 13:20:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thoreau Lovell Subject: New Five Fingers Review Comments: cc: olmsted@crl.com Re: Distribution or Bust Thanks Charles for reminding us lurkers that we need, at least, to keep the basic information flowing. Five Fingers Review 14, "Metamorphosis," is now available. The issue was inspired by and is dedicated to the memory of Nina Iskrenko. Belated thanks go out to Ron Silliman, Ed Foster and others for their postings just after Nina died. She was a contributing editor for FFR and a dear friend as well. No 14 includes a collaborative project Nina directed just before she died, called the the Metamorphosis Project, in which she distributed a short excerpt from Plato's Laws with "all the nouns lovingly crossed out" to a group of Russain and American writers asking them to fill in the blanks. The Russian contributors are: Nina, Sveta Litvak, Nikolai Baitov, Igor Zhukov, Sergei Solovyev, Pavel Mityushev, Dmitry Vodennikov and Andrei Vorkunov. The American: John High, Leslie Scalapino, Thoreau Lovell, Michelle Murphy and Scott MacLeod. The issue also features special sections by other contributing editors: Writing from the UK edited by Fanny Howe, with work by Ken Edwards, David Dibosa, Wendy Mulford and Drew Milne. A section of Native American / Mixed Blood writing edited by Mark Nowak, featuring Diane Glancy, Kimberly TallBear and Eric Priestley. C. D. Wright and Forrest Gander introduce writing by two younger writers, J. L. Jacobs and Mallory Tarses respectively. Rounding out the issue is a section of new poems by Ivan Zhdanov translated by John High and an interview with Zhdanov conducted by John High. Other contributors are: Jon Davis, Sally Doyle, Evgeny Laputin trans. Vitaly Chernetsky, H. E. Francis, Craig Czury, John Olson, Gordon Lish, Mark Mirsky, Ezra Mark, Elizabeth Robinson, David Hoefer, Larry Fondation, Lawrence Fixel, Stephen Ratcliffe, Annabelle Honza Clippinger, Stefanie Marlis, Robert Fagan, Andrew Joron, Ray DiPalma, and Liz Waldner. Copies can be ordered directly from Five Fingers for $9.00 at: Five Fingers Review PO Box 15426 San Francisco, CA 94115 Phone: 415-431-8506 email: tlovell@sfsu.edu SPD and our other distributors should have copies by the end of September. Best, Thoreau Lovell, Co-Editor w/John High Thoreau Lovell (tlovell@sfsu.edu) / (415-338-2285) Computer Coordinator, College of BSS San Francisco State University ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 13:35:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lisa Robertson Subject: LZ & bookshop chickenshit "Bookstores are just as chickenshit as commercial radio stations." Dear Steve (and all with bookstore complaints), Here's a slightly crabby response from someone who worked the front lines of chickenshit-- having owned and run a bookstore for six years. I agree that it is irritating to rarely find one's literary tastes represented on bookstore shelves. I agree that the situation is getting worse as time goes by. But the reason is not that bookbuyers are more disinterested in avant garde concerns, but that it is becoming a increasingly large risk, in our deflated economies, to maintain a stock that adequately represents even the major movements in contemporary poetry and poetics, let alone off shoots, "minor" writers, etc. Booksellers are not plotting together to keep experimental writing out of the marketplace. They are stuggling under extremely anxious conditions to keep their businesses open. As Charles pointed out, overhead gets more and more impossible in the urban areas which have any sort of concentrated readership of such books. If a store does seem to have even a rudimentary stock of books you like, it probably means that the shop is kept open by free labour, outside jobs on the owner's part, and almost definately some sort of martyred partner with a banal day job, who keeps the rent paid at home, and the fridge stocked. You can imagine the burn-out rate of such a life. The point is, why trash even small efforts towards adventurous ordering? Why not patiently place special orders for Zukofsky, Ferguson, Bernstein, Doris, Celan, then make sure you actually( and promptly) buy the book when it arrives? Why not inform your bookseller about reading communities who would happily buy sun and moon books, roof books, tsunami books? Then make sure these people respect the economic outlay a broke bookseller is making, make sure money changes hands. Why not make group orders via your informal reading groups? If you teach, why not order through independant shops? If you are a tenured person with an income, why not buy from a shop instead of waiting for a complimentary copy to arrive in the mail? Bookstores finally have to either close, or change their stocking policies and philosophies, for complex reasons. Many customers regard a shop that stocks language poetry, black mountain, tish, objectivists, more like a museum or a community service, than a shakey business that desperately needs economic patonage. Booksellers are often so worn out fielding calls from collections departments that they can't spend alot of time teaching themselves about poetry movements. Its up to the customer who wants a good booksource to teach the bookseller, help her build a relationship with alternative buying communities. The rent which shelters these formidable tomes you favour must be paid, the space must be insured, the phone kept operative, even if the bookseller herself does live on someone else's generosity. Most bookstores are very happy to special order, and if you multiply these orders, by ordering with friends, then the buyer starts to get the point. Here I am begining to repeat my theme, I know, but in that business haughty individuals who deplore the absence of their personal canons are the (irritating) norm. Often the clerk you speak with is not the buyer, is someone working for minimum wage, or volunteering, and can't be a specialist in your area. Often the bookseller is too embarrassed to tell you that the book you have ordered is in limbo because an account has been frozen or terminated due to inability to pay. Under long term duress, the protocols of concerned and attentive customer service can occaisionally wear thin. Only a committed and patient community can keep a good shop open. On that note I would suggest that all Vancouver list subscribers rush to Black Sheep Books on fourth avenue, and help Denise and Trent by buying something, and by ordering something. I understand that multiple copies of Perelman's Trouble with Genius will be arriving there shortly. respectfully, Lisa Robertson ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 16:50:38 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gale Nelson Subject: Tapes of Laura Riding and Robert Graves In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 11 Sep 1995 12:24:39 EDT from Does anyone know of any tapes of readings by Laura Riding or Robert Graves? Many thanks for your input. Gale Nelson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 09:24:05 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Pergolesi It's a kind of a bad teminology joke. Baroque in painting sculpture architecture town planning means a variable time/period-thing that's hottest in the 17th century, but still going in some versions in the early 18th in Germany and Austria. But music: that's altogether a different terminology and even Mozart in the late 18th century is sometimes called baroque (rarely & I suppose carelessly)though I must say. Bach and even more obviously Handel coincide with what in European decorative asrts painting architecture etc is usually called Rococo. Forget the big old period terminology and its attempts to find a few simple style characteristics to fit everyone into a time. French literature Baroque is late 16th century to early 17th century and ends with the Precieux, maybe the death of Voiture 1648 wd be a good date. The whole enterprise is deeply suspect. Personally I'm more interested in way pomo readings of much late 16th c and early 17th c arts can be useful (which I refuse to say any more about, because it's the same old game once more other than in a three volume encyclopaedic book). The Baroque as a term is about as useful as G1 when it comes down to the reading/understanding/enjoyment or even on the critical commentary on any actual works. Go Pergolesi, with your somewhere between Baroque and Rococo even early classical-romantic harmony-melody! Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 14:15:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: publications/anagram In-Reply-To: from "Gwyn McVay" at Sep 19, 95 07:56:31 am And Michael Boughn can be respelled Bohemian Gulch ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 14:13:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix... In-Reply-To: from "Jorge Guitart" at Sep 19, 95 08:25:19 am Some ink-daubbed wretches wrote: In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes of Palookaville & the dead heroes of Guadalajara empowering scores of liberated mozos intent of Lacanian ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 14:25:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the reich In-Reply-To: <199509190457.VAA21397@bob.indirect.com> from "Sheila E. Murphy" at Sep 18, 95 09:57:57 pm On Sep. 19, Edgar Varese wrote: In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes who pester as obsession or a hobby or as fraction of a prayer, towering above us with a lot of bothersome >>>>>>>>>>>>,s ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 14:29:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Distribution or Bust In-Reply-To: <01HVFRXVO4FO8XSTHT@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu> from "Charles Bernstein" at Sep 18, 95 10:30:45 pm Okay, my most recent novel, _Shoot!_ is going to be published in the US by St. Martin's Press in January. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 14:06:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Dangerous poets? In-Reply-To: <199509191444.KAA16368@postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu> from "Fred Muratori" at Sep 19, 95 10:44:47 am Maybe USAmerican poets arent dangerous, but their novelists can be, to their wives. Take Mailer and Burroughs, for instance. And some of us know of a USAmerican poet who shot his wife. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 15:32:50 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: Sheila, Chris & Jorge's Excellent Adventure In-Reply-To: <199509190508.WAA21685@bob.indirect.com> > >> >>in the books were dreams and in the dreams were > >> >>books.And flew > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> >>> >> (...) > >> >>> >> >>> >>> >spending the bulk of closure with sentient scoops > >> >>> >> >>> >>> that fluke picnic shot out of these worlds we spread been-to > >> >>> >> >>> >> say that the center cannot hold the nose tackle much longer > >> >>> >> >>> >than a clam can sleeve out of incarceration baldly > >> >>> >> >>> go where others fear to operate the biggest donors hive > >> >>> >> >>> & where Mars collides with the small world of "It's a small world" > >> >>> >> >ripe for macroscopes to pump or slice or butterfly away > >> >>> >> from that ardent bugged heliotrope and pledge allegiance through > >> >>> > ostension--we stopped short of the shortstop stigmata > >> >>> this time pencilled in as tangly wisps instead of memory > >> >> detonations: but don't forget to dismember the doloroso > >> >I left in the rain by mistake whilst on business vocation > >> hollering newmown platitudes to headsets painted blue and waffle colored > >> earth colored fire colored i have this thing against water colored > therefore elemental-painted playthings cost a dear shined copper looking > masked vertigo beyond the ti plants fye ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 21:50:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Blair Seagram Subject: poetry, bookstores, the list Well, I am ignorant of many things, including poetry, contemporary poetry and the bookstores that carry these elements of our being . And yet, I find no contempt (unless I'm missing something) here , on this list. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 19:50:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: Pergolesi I'm a fool for Stabat Mater, too. An incomparable experience to sing. I still feel where on the risers I was standing. Sheila ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 19:51:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: be advised: wcw qtd in this renga >On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >> >On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, George Bowering wrote: >> > >> >> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> >> The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three >> >> Something has changed in the nature of friendship >> >> But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line >> >> For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum >> >> Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs >> >> Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm >> >> feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset >> blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans > on metaphors that the folks at the contagious hospital thought we might be weaned of early, late, whatever ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 20:07:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix... >Some ink-daubbed wretches wrote: > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books >incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured >the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is >Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes >of Palookaville & the dead heroes of Guadalajara >empowering scores of liberated mozos intent of Lacanian libretti, salted with much, much more than roughage added to taste ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 20:07:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the reich GB wrote: >On Sep. 19, Edgar Varese wrote: > > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured >the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is >Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes >who pester as obsession or a hobby or as fraction of a prayer, >towering above us with a lot of bothersome >>>>>>>>>>>>,s measured at density 21.5 along with a "d" added to first name ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 20:10:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: you & an army of mixed metaphors and forgotten half-truths... In-Reply-To: <01HVF6FW1C5Q8WZ2H8@VAXC.STEVENS-TECH.EDU> On Mon, 18 Sep 1995, Edward Foster wrote: > various things, jeffery, too much for here, but at least (1) unpack wcw's rhetoric: it trivializes much poetry. wcw "clarity" entails doing less, not better. (2) let's retire "avant-garde." see jackson mac low on this. it's a military line. -ed 1: Would you care to? Please. . . 2: Yes, less, not necessarily better; but also novel in context--important. 3: Sure, but you know what I mean. And still, where would we be without that influence? Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 22:23:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Distribution 'R' Us >Even in a city without a store like Woodland Pattern, Talking Leaves, >Bridge Street, it still makes sense to find an independent local store and >order through them. Thanks, Herb, for pointing this out. It is too easy to be cynical about bookstores, yet so true that at least some of them can be influenced by us when we actually buy books. I imagine there are several people on this list who buy $500 or more (for some, a lot more) of books each year. To a bookstore, that makes you significant, particularly when you figure it's only a small percentage of Americans who ever set foot in a bookstore. >Another thing that can increase the distribution of "this kind of" poetry >is to make purchase requests at libraries. > >They won't buy everything (& the selections can seem frustratingly >arbitrary), but library buyers are overwhelmed with options & frequently >just need an excuse to make a choice. If few people are requesting books >(&, even at academic libraries, most people don't), you could make a real >mark on a library's poetry collection. I even know of one case at a university where, during a rash of spending cuts lasting quite some time, librarians could only order books which faculty members had requested. Several librarians I've known have been outstanding builders of poetry collections (far better than most literature professors). I trust them with the decisions more than I trust the faculty, for the most part. Thanks for saying these various things, Herb. charles Charles Alexander Chax Press P.O. Box 19178 Minneapolis, MN 55419-0178 612-721-6063 (phone & fax) chax@mtn.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 20:29:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: you & an army of mixed metaphors and forgotten half-truths... In-Reply-To: <01HVGJ18ZUY68WZD47@VAXC.STEVENS-TECH.EDU> On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Edward Foster wrote: > i was referring to the passage quoted from wcw and suggesting that if you unpack it you find that it eliminates or questions ways of speaking--gnostic utterance for one. I'm not sure why I'm pursuing this . . . I thought we trashed over WCW months ago? Anyway, the passage--if it's the one I posted--does seek to question a way of speaking; specifically, a poetry that emulates the real. WCW was after the shape of the imagination--as vague, mind you, as Nature, but specifically attempting to free poetry from the constraints of an inherited romantic tradition binding verse to the depiction of a natural world. WcW (wCw; W2C?) was . . . questioning the validity of this way of writing. And, again,(especially if we are to pursue this any further) I ask: where would we be without this influence? Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 20:47:09 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: Sheila, Chris & Jorge's Excellent Adventure >> > >> >> >>SEM-CC-JG BRANCH 9/19/95 C adding to J adding to S >> >> >> >> >> >>in the books were dreams and in the dreams were >> >> >>books.And flew > >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> >> (...) >> >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> >>> >spending the bulk of closure with sentient scoops >> >> >>> >> >>> >>> that fluke picnic shot out of these worlds we spread >>been-to >> >> >>> >> >>> >> say that the center cannot hold the nose tackle much longer >> >> >>> >> >>> >than a clam can sleeve out of incarceration baldly >> >> >>> >> >>> go where others fear to operate the biggest donors hive >> >> >>> >> >>> & where Mars collides with the small world of "It's a small >>worl >d" >> >> >>> >> >ripe for macroscopes to pump or slice or butterfly away >> >> >>> >> from that ardent bugged heliotrope and pledge allegiance through >> >> >>> > ostension--we stopped short of the shortstop stigmata >> >> >>> this time pencilled in as tangly wisps instead of memory >> >> >> detonations: but don't forget to dismember the doloroso >> >> >I left in the rain by mistake whilst on business vocation >> >> hollering newmown platitudes to headsets painted blue and waffle colored >> >> earth colored fire colored i have this thing against water colored >> therefore elemental-painted playthings cost a dear shined copper looking >> for false grit and the dogma of autonomous syntaxis overwhelmed them when striking from base-camp their paraffin tongues in the cauldron ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 09:57:09 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R I Caddel Subject: Re: Distribution 'R Us In-Reply-To: <199509200449.FAA22058@tucana.dur.ac.uk> In uk universities book-buying budgets are so tight that it's not uncommon for all library selection to be delegated to faculty. The result, in my experience, is that collections are always lagging behind current academic interest because they are reacting to demand, rather than understanding it and preempting it. Also, collections fragment as each individual pursues his/her own concerns, and the "linkage" areas fall by the wayside. Smallpress buying, it goes without saying, also falls away. Having a librarian involved in selection doesn't fix the basic problem (lack of resource) but it should mean that selection has a broader base, and can react to wider interests (as long as these are expressed, and don't remain at the sudued muttering stage). Gently, I'm starting to squeeze a little more smallpress material into Durham... signed, A Librarian ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 20:47:17 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: Sheila, Chris & Jorge's Excellent Adventure >> >> >SEM-CC-JG BRANCH 9/19/95 C adding to J adding to S >> >> > >> >> >in the books were dreams and in the dreams were >> >> >books.And flew > >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> (...) >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> >spending the bulk of closure with sentient scoops >> >> >> >> >>> >>> that fluke picnic shot out of these worlds we spread been-to >> >> >> >> >>> >> say that the center cannot hold the nose tackle much longer >> >> >> >> >>> >than a clam can sleeve out of incarceration baldly >> >> >> >> >>> go where others fear to operate the biggest donors hive >> >> >> >> >>> & where Mars collides with the small world of "It's a small >>world >" >> >> >> >> >ripe for macroscopes to pump or slice or butterfly away >> >> >> >> from that ardent bugged heliotrope and pledge allegiance through >> >> >> > ostension--we stopped short of the shortstop stigmata >> >> >> this time pencilled in as tangly wisps instead of memory >> >> > detonations: but don't forget to dismember the doloroso >> >> pitchpipe with its squeal subtracted and the dotted-line relationships >> >and sing "I Love Time but I love Your Spatial Simulacra Much More" >> for the brevity inferred and for the latchkey touch more like a feather >> drizzling blood of picklet beet all over the related phenomena braising from punch a drunk streak which no absolute bearings flew >> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 22:59:00 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: Dangerous poets? >> >>What is a "dangerous" poet? >> >>Tom >>tbjn@well.com I nu she was dangerus but was she a poet? So I askd her wat a dangerus poet is. She sed a dangerus poet sets u free and on the road to ruin. I sed u goin my way beautiful? She sed u gotta doo bettr thn that if u wanna be free. I'd settle for ruind I sed. She sed I onlee date poets. I sed are yu a poet? She sed that's a jujment not a vocashun. So I need to deside wether yore a poet? I'll call yu one if yu call me one I sed. I don't need it that bad she sed. Doo u need it I askd. U ask a lot of questyuns she sed. I don't hav a lot of ansers I sed. So r u a poet she askd. I squirmd n sed if u don't say so no one will beleev u. Yore work she replied. Poetry is wide I sed. Hoose perpus duz it suit and what's the perpus if someone calls yu a poet. In yore case, she sed, it's to get me into bed. I think yer dangerus I sed. I don't noe what poetry is, I sed. She sed flatteree will get you noware. As for poetry, neethr do I she sed. Wat is it tht we want to be she sed and y? If it is th outword thing then weave missd it there's devoshun to wat can be sed th reach of it and all of us in th breath. Time and we will tell us hoo we r I sed. A dangerus one's a pure one maybe. Hoo can tell too early? We spend it out finding out. Honey I'm on th road to ruin. And hey I got a little lucky fr a coffee and the diffrence between a rebel and a revolutionary. It wasn't enuff but it was a start. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 01:39:23 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Phillips Subject: Dist. or Bust (i.e., New Book) Well, I have to fess up. I just received 9 boxes of my new book _Ruin_. But if my silence on the publication of this book weren't egregious enough quietude, I am also the publisher. - what books - is the name of my press. Upcoming from what books is a book by Thad Ziolkowski titled _Our Son the Arson_, due sometime at the end of the year. I hope in the next year to publish one or two other collections and a recalcitrant anthology I've been working on for a while. I aim to publish two or three books a year by writers who are just outside the loop. what books is not an effort to bring writers into the loop-as-such, but to see if there can remain for at least a while a notion complicit autonomy. There is a big cusp. As to my book, I have had luck doing the consignment hustle in NYC - St. Marks had one copy last I heard (two were purchased there by friends) and Tower's consignment buyer wants more. That's pretty much the extent of my distribution to date. Now I have 750 copies... If anyone would like a copy (or copies for thier book store shelves) you can reach me here, preferably back-channel, or at PRPhillips@aol.com. I would be glad to send you one. I know that some of you are strapped for cash (or couldn't bear the sight unseeness of it,) I will be giving away some copies, so if you would like a copy (for barter, trade, or donation and postage), please send me your mailing address and I'll gladly send you one. I would also be very glad to hear anyone's comments on SPD and "other" distribution methods. I would also like to know people have luck hoofing into other stores in the Boston/NY/Philly/DC area with thier books, or which stores are particularly open. Julianna, or Rod, do either of you have small press info? Lisa Robertson, what is your view of the viability of quite small "indi's" in the small press slump? Patrick Phillips 107 Elmgrove Ave. Providence, RI 02906 401 272 1181 Patrick_Phillips@brown.edu PRPhillips@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 22:21:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix...> >someone, sometime maybe wrote: > > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured > > the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is > Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes >> of Palookaville & the dead heroes of Guadalajara far and away in the midst of a hustlingbusted big CCIITTYY ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 22:06:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix... Some ink-daubbed wretches wrote: In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes of Palookaville & the dead heroes of Guadalajara empowering scores of liberated mozos intent of Lacanian Bananas and coconut grove's ashes Phoenix rose and o ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 23:05:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix... >>Some ink-daubbed wretches wrote: >> >>In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books >>of Palookaville & the dead heroes of Guadalajara >>empowering scores of liberated mozos intent of Lacanian >libretti, salted with much, much more than roughage added to taste or tremolo, finding the shores awash with alphabet, proclaiming nothing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 23:02:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: be advised: wcw qtd in this renga >>On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: >> >>> >On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, George Bowering wrote: >>> > >>> >> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >>> >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >>> >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >>> >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >>> >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >>> >> The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three >>> >> Something has changed in the nature of friendship >>> >> But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line >>> >> For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum >>> >> Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs >>> >> Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm >>> >> feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset >>> blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans >> on metaphors that the folks at the contagious hospital >thought we might be weaned of early, late, whatever the contagious wind strikes a chord with nothing ventured ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 20:31:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: you & an army of mixed metaphors and forgotten half-truths... ed writes: >various things, jeffery, too much for here, but at least (1) unpack wcw's rhetoric: it trivializes much poetry. wcw "clarity" entails doing less, not better. This is probably the concomitant danger of the attempt to poetize trivia, to champion "simple everyday speech." Certainly when WCW's effort fails, the trivia stays trivial and the poetry joins it. But honestly, Ed, are there no moments in WCW when something trivial achieves a shining presence through Williams' treatment of it? (2) let's retire "avant-garde." see jackson mac low on this. it's a military line. ...which has been incorporated by the fashion industry. Steve ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 20:46:55 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: Sheila, Cris & Jorge's Excellent Adventure >> >>> >SEM-CC-JG BRANCH 19/9/95 C adding to J adding to C adding to S >> >>in the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.And flew >> >>spending the bulk of closure with sentient scoops >> >>that fluke picnic shot out of these worlds we spread been-to >> >>say that the center cannot hold the nose tackle much longer >> >>than a clam can sleeve out of incarceration baldly >> >>go where others fear to operate the biggest donors hive >> >>& where Mars collides with the small world of "It's a small world" >> >>ripe for macroscopes to pump or slice or butterfly away >> >>from that ardent bugged heliotrope and pledge allegiance through >> >>ostension--we stopped short of the shortstop's stigmata >> >>this time pencilled in as tangly wisps instead of memory >> >>detonations: but don't forget to dismember the doloroso >> >>I left in the rain by mistake whilst on business vocation >> >>the night I told you to stop referring to me as Ontology Boy >> >and you replied all shrouded in epistemology that it was glue we lacked >> "ckab oups frert cdl-fdl!!" with elvis projecting "uhhhh, I'm all stuck >>in the epoxy I used to cement my relationship w/ Thou, the Dead Quaker who who traipses a paradigm sweat under lights and then fixes ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 09:57:18 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: you & an army of mixed metaphors and forgotten half-truths... Comments: cc: efoster@vaxc.stevens-tech.edu Ed, I'm afraid I got lost. What passage? What is this about "nature"? Etc. (I may have accidentally deleted some unread messages, Or else maybe I've had a minor stroke, but anyway I dont' know to what your last message responds. love, burt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 10:05:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Charles O. Hartman" Subject: Re: Distribution or Bust In-Reply-To: <199509192129.VAA03251@fraser.sfu.ca> Well, OK, my _Glass Enclosure_ came out from Wesleyan a couple of months ago. And earlier in the year Sun & Moon did Hugh Kenner's and my _Sentences_. Charles O. Hartman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 10:09:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "SUSAN E. TICHY" Subject: Re: LZ & bookshop chickenshit In-Reply-To: Thank you, Lisa, for a little breath of un-self-centered air in this discussion. As co-owner of one of the world's smallest bookstores, I can corroborate the sad truth that invoices must be paid whether the books on them have sold or not. And the effort to balance what will sell with what I wish would sell, what I'd like to be surrounded with, is in itself a career. When a customer asks for a book I don't have--or a whole category of books I don't have--I always respond by offering to place an order. Usually the disgruntled one can't be bothered. And one more thing--bookstore owners have venues of our own, where we talk about our customers the way you are talking about us. That's the reason there aren't more assaults in bookstores. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 09:11:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Dist. or Bust (i.e., New Book) Dear Patrick: I'd love to trade for a copy of Ruin. I can send you one of my books (Hopeful Buildings, Chax Press; or arc of light/dark matter, Segue Books), or I can send another Chax Press Book (Ron Silliman, Demo to Ink; Kathleen Fraser, when new time folds up; Beverly Dahlen, A Reading 8-10; Norman Fischer, Precisely the Point Being Made; Sheila Murphy, Teth; Karen Mac Cormack, Quirks & Quillets; bp Nichol, Hopeful Buildings; Eli Goldblatt, Sessions; Wo'i Bwikam/Coyote Songs, from the Yaqui Bow Leaders' Society; or the forthcoming The Said Lands, Islands, & Premises, by Mary Margaret Sloan, etc.), or you could wait for a new book by me in about six months. Let me know. And send anything to the address below. all best, charles Charles Alexander Chax Press P.O. Box 19178 Minneapolis, MN 55419-0178 612-721-6063 (phone & fax) chax@mtn.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 11:11:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: be advised: wcw qtd in this renga In-Reply-To: <199509200251.TAA20441@bob.indirect.com> On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > > > >> >On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, George Bowering wrote: > >> > > >> >> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> >> The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three > >> >> Something has changed in the nature of friendship > >> >> But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line > >> >> For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum > >> >> Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs > >> >> Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm > >> >> feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset > >> blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans > > on metaphors that the folks at the contagious hospital > thought we might be weaned of early, late, whatever, > but I am taking the broken glass as a token of my first epiphany ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 11:14:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix... In-Reply-To: <199509200307.UAA20856@bob.indirect.com> > >Some ink-daubbed Canadian & American wretches wrote: > > > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books > >incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured > >the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is > >Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes > >of Palookaville & the dead heroes of Guadalajara > >empowering scores of liberated mozos intent of Lacanian > libretti, salted with much, much more than roughage added to taste > doughboys & doughgirls, behaving like superfluous enigmas ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 08:30:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: bookshop chickenshit & LZ Chickenshit? Oh, I thought it said "chickenship" & read it through twice looking for an anecdote about Spicer in a vancouver bookshop. Even so, I want to reiterate Lisa's suggestion that Vancouver folks support Black Sheep Books. They did a great job of stocking their tables at BlaserCon. I only wish I was in Vancouver more often to spend more money at such a responsive shop. Maybe when I'm up there to hear Derek Bailey & company. &, thanks to everyone for the information on various Zukofsky video/audio tapes. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 08:31:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Distribution or Shoot George - I hope you are able to find a Canadian publisher for "Shoot" eventually, but at least you were able to get it published somewhere. Let me know if you'll need any copies brought up from Seattle. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 11:34:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Sheila, Chris & Jorge's Excellent Adventure In-Reply-To: <9509192038.aa17101@post.demon.co.uk> SEM-CC-JG BRANCH 9/19/95 J adding to C adding to J adding to S > >> >> >in the books were dreams and in the dreams were > >> >> >books.And flew > >> >>> >> > >> >> >> >> >>> >> (...) > >> >> >> >> >>> >> > >> >> >> >> >>> >>> >spending the bulk of closure with sentient scoops > >> >> >> >> >>> >>> that fluke picnic shot out of these worlds we spread been-to > >> >> >> >> >>> >> say that the center cannot hold the nose tackle much longer > >> >> >> >> >>> >than a clam can sleeve out of incarceration baldly > >> >> >> >> >>> go where others fear to operate the biggest donors hive > >> >> >> >> >>> & where Mars collides with the small world of "It's a small > >>world > >" > >> >> >> >> >ripe for macroscopes to pump or slice or butterfly away > >> >> >> >> from that ardent bugged heliotrope and pledge allegiance through > >> >> >> > ostension--we stopped short of the shortstop stigmata > >> >> >> this time pencilled in as tangly wisps instead of memory > >> >> > detonations: but don't forget to dismember the doloroso > >> >> pitchpipe with its squeal subtracted and the dotted-line relationships > >> >and sing "I Love Time but I love Your Spatial Simulacra Much More" > >> for the brevity inferred and for the latchkey touch more like a feather > >> drizzling blood of picklet beet all over the related phenomena > braising from punch a drunk streak which no absolute bearings flew off the Handel I did not miss for Pergolesi was by the pergola with > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 11:36:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix...> In-Reply-To: <199509200521.WAA14852@well.com> On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Thomas Bell wrote: > >someone, sometime maybe wrote: > > > > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > > incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured > > > the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is > > Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes > >> of Palookaville & the dead heroes of Guadalajara > far and away in the midst of a hustlingbusted big CCIITTYY > where disparity fell like soft rain far from Leithauser ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 11:42:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix... In-Reply-To: <199509200506.WAA10355@well.com> The Bell Curl > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books > incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured > the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is > Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes > of Palookaville & the dead heroes of Guadalajara > empowering scores of liberated mozos intent of Lacanian > Bananas and coconut grove's ashes Phoenix rose and o > o, o, the Murdochian rag, ok stop dick stop spot ate puff ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 11:18:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the reich In-Reply-To: <199509200307.UAA20859@bob.indirect.com> Jorge Bowering Murphy wrote > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured > >the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is > >Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes > >who pester as obsession or a hobby or as fraction of a prayer, > >towering above us with a lot of bothersome >>>>>>>>>>>>,s > measured at density 21.5 along with a "d" added to first name > of DDaniel who saw Adonai and believe me he was no Adonis ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 11:29:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Sheila, Chris & Jorge's Excellent Adventure In-Reply-To: <9509192038.aa17056@post.demon.co.uk> R! = C!S!J! = (X - >>>>) where X is a variable ranging from excellent to outasight "books were closed, dreams were cancelled, the inverted poplar was set right, the cardinal was killed" St.John Terse, "Ananas" > >> >> >>> >> >ripe for macroscopes to pump or slice or butterfly away > >> >> >>> >> from that ardent bugged heliotrope and pledge allegiance through > >> >> >>> > ostension--we stopped short of the shortstop stigmata > >> >> >>> this time pencilled in as tangly wisps instead of memory > >> >> >> detonations: but don't forget to dismember the doloroso > >> >> >I left in the rain by mistake whilst on business vocation > >> >> hollering newmown platitudes to headsets painted blue and waffle colored > >> >> earth colored fire colored i have this thing against water colored > >> therefore elemental-painted playthings cost a dear shined copper looking > >> for false grit and the dogma of autonomous syntax overwhelmed them > when striking from base-camp their paraffin tongues in the cauldron of sylvia's morning during the time that ted was devising a way to ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 11:44:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: be advised: wcw qtd in this renga In-Reply-To: <199509200402.XAA28214@freedom.mtn.org> On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Charles Alexander wrote: > >>On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >> > >>> >On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, George Bowering wrote: > >>> > > >>> >> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >>> >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >>> >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >>> >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >>> >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >>> >> The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three > >>> >> Something has changed in the nature of friendship > >>> >> But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line > >>> >> For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum > >>> >> Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs > >>> >> Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm > >>> >> feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset > >>> blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans > >> on metaphors that the folks at the contagious hospital > >thought we might be weaned of early, late, whatever > the contagious wind strikes a chord with nothing ventured > maimed, my parents won't let me play with density ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 12:01:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: Distribution or Object _Object # 5_ "featuring" Rod Smith is out, 25 page piece called "A Grammar Manakin." Also in the issue are Jennifer Moxley, Tim Davis, Steven Farmer, Judith Goldman, Dirk Rowntree, Michael Basinski, Bill Luoma, Vallerie Fox, Joe Elliot, Bill Howe, Milo DeAngelis, & Joan Retallack. _Object #4_ is a long piece by Robert Kocik & an essay by Stacy Doris. Rob Fitterman, the editor, plans to continue the format of #5, a 25-page feature plus other work, in future issues. Order from Object, 7-13 Washington Square North #47B, NY, NY 10003. $5 per issue, $8 two issue subscription. Checks payable to Robert Fitterman. Also, my chapbook called _The Boy Poems_ is available from Buck Downs Books, POBox 50376, Washington, DC 20091 for $4. & that's the news. --Rod ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 09:18:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Dangerous Music In-Reply-To: <199509200445.VAA05243@sparta.SJSU.EDU> last truly dangerous poet I met was a drunk at the Red Lion who used to leave threatening messages on my answering machine -- since moving West I haven't encountered another -- BUT, in the sens in which the question was offered -- commercial publishing and its yardley appendages have done a good job of convincing everyone that American poets are clawless (perhaps even clueless), merely pawing over one another -- there is, however, always a however, most of us in fact know of one or two people who aren't publishing poets who occasionally read poetry whether any poets are truly dangerous or not, the US Govt. seems to worry about some of them -- check out Baraka's FBI files and you'll be surprised how many of his chapbooks were purchased by Hoover's literati for closer examination the MFA establishment, whoever and wherever that might be, certainly goes into a tither the moment anyone suggests hiring a poet unlikely to get on TV with Bill Moyers and loosing same upon the creative writing students -- I've observed this phenom. at several colleges in recent years -- & read the AWP newletter if you think Yardley is the most outrageous and paranoid of our denouncers of poetics these days -- The reactions of both FBA and MFA agents are, naturally, out of all proportion to real threat -- I think Bersenbrugge endangered a number of my own assumptions about line -- and I have been trying to understand what that means ever since -- rereading Russell Atkins was a clear and present danger to much that I had been taught about postmodernity, and I'm still mulling that over No novel is safe in the vicinity of Lyn Hejinian or Leslie Scalapino And Williams is still, I believe, more dangerous than the "light rail" now installed in San Jose, which has claimed fifteen lives during its short existence. I don't think H.D. represents a clear and present danger (though I love her, the novels especially) -- but Moore's scalpel is deadly if you let her get close -- Have any poets changed my own carriage? To this day I will not read Niedecker in a dark room by myself -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 09:29:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kit Robinson Subject: Diamonds and Rust Reply to: Diamonds and Rust NewLangtonArts presents. . . the premiere performance of Diamonds and Rust by Kevin Killian & Wayne Smith a new play that chronicles the inner struggles of a group of young window dressers who yearn for separate careers as fine artists. . . ONE NIGHT ONLY Saturday, September 30 8pm Tickets: $8/$6 members NewLangtonArts 1246 Folsom St. between 8th & 9th San Francisco 415.626.5416 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 13:27:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Fred E. Maus" Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix... In-Reply-To: from "Jorge Guitart" at Sep 20, 95 11:14:38 am the books were the end of the projection of dead heroes dead heroes of scores of libretti, roughage like enigmas ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 07:36:21 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix... In-Reply-To: <199509200405.XAA28233@freedom.mtn.org> On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Charles Alexander wrote: > >>Some ink-daubbed wretches wrote: > >> > >>In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books > > >>of Palookaville & the dead heroes of Guadalajara > >>empowering scores of liberated mozos intent of Lacanian > >libretti, salted with much, much more than roughage added to taste > or tremolo, finding the shores awash with alphabet, proclaiming nothing > nutting nothing a-merrily over my dead bodies in abandon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 10:49:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the reich > Jorge Bowering Murphy wrote > >> >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> >incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured >> >the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is >> >Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes >> >who pester as obsession or a hobby or as fraction of a prayer, >> >towering above us with a lot of bothersome >>>>>>>>>>>>,s >> measured at density 21.5 along with a "d" added to first name >> of DDaniel who saw Adonai and believe me he was no Adonis although reputation tends to weave a little of transfixive ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 10:49:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix... >> >Some ink-daubbed Canadian & American wretches wrote: >> > >> >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books >> >incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured >> >the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is >> >Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes >> >of Palookaville & the dead heroes of Guadalajara >> >empowering scores of liberated mozos intent of Lacanian >> libretti, salted with much, much more than roughage added to taste >> doughboys & doughgirls, behaving like superfluous enigmas puzzling in contagious ways over the simplest rides to ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 10:44:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix... >>>Some ink-daubbed wretches wrote: >>> >>>In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books > >>>of Palookaville & the dead heroes of Guadalajara >>>empowering scores of liberated mozos intent of Lacanian >>libretti, salted with much, much more than roughage added to taste >or tremolo, finding the shores awash with alphabet, proclaiming nothing more dangerous than mislabeled spice with conscience ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 14:53:37 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Edwards <100344.2546@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Reality Street Edition new books OK in response to Charles' request, here's a truncated version of Reality Street Editions' catalogue (full version at the EPC). Our most recent books, on their way to SPD in a rather bulky package on a tramp steamer even as I write, are: Fanny Howe O'CLOCK 1-874400-07-5 L6.50 200 x 120mm paperback 104pp Peter Riley DISTANT POINTS 1-874400-06-7 L6.50 200 x 148mm paperback 64pp Out this autumn... Sarah Kirsch T Translated by Anthony Vivis and Wendy Mulford. Autumn 1995 1-874400-05-9 L4.50 200 x 120mm saddle-stitched 28pp Forthcoming Jan 1996.... OUT OF EVERYWHERE An anthology of contemporary linguistically innovative poetry by women in North America & the UK Edited and with an introduction by Maggie O'Sullivan Afterword by Wendy Mulford The 30 poets included are: Rae Armantrout, Caroline Bergvall, Nicole Brossard, Paula Claire, Tina Darragh, Deanna Ferguson, Kathleen Fraser, Barbara Guest, Carla Harryman, Lyn Hejinian, Fanny Howe, Susan Howe, Grace Lake, Karen MacCormack, Bernadette Mayer, Geraldine Monk, Wendy Mulford, Melanie Neilson, Maggie O'Sullivan, Carlyle Reedy, Joan Retallack, Denise Riley, Lisa Robertson, Leslie Scalapino, Catriona Strang, Fiona Templeton, Rosmarie Waldrop, Diane Ward, Hannah Weiner, Marjorie Welish. Winter 1995/6 1-874400-08-3 L7.50 205 x 132mm paperback 240pp (actually likely to be 256pp) Recently published.... Allen Fisher DISPOSSESSION AND CURE 1-874400-03-2 L6.50 200 x 148mm paperback 72pp Denise Riley MOP MOP GEORGETTE 1-874400-04-0 L6.50 170 x 170mm paperback 72pp Maggie O'Sullivan IN THE HOUSE OF THE SHAMAN 1-874400-01-6 L6.50 210 x 147mm paperback 72pp Susan Gevirtz TAKEN PLACE 1-874400-02-4 L6.50 200 x 148mm paperback 64pp Kelvin Corcoran LYRIC LYRIC 1-874400-00-8 L5.99 200 x 120mm paperback 48pp Inquiries: Ken Edwards, 4 Howard Court, Peckham Rye, London SE15 3PH, UK Tel: 0171-639 7297 email: 100344.2546@compuserve.com UK distributors -Paul Green, 83b London Rd, Peterborough PE2 9BS -Peter Riley, 27 Sturton St, Cambridge CB1 2QG, tel 01223-576 422 USA distributors -Small Press Distribution Inc, 1814 San Pablo Avenue, Berkeley, CA 94702, tel 510-549-3336 Canadian distributors -Marginal Distribution, Unit 102, 277 George Street North, Peterborough, Ontario K9J 3G9, tel 705-745-2326 NB: All prices are in sterling; refer to our US/Canadian distributors for dollar prices. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 11:57:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: LAURA MORIARTY Subject: Re: A24 In-Reply-To: <199509191739.KAA11050@lanfill.lanminds.com> I've back-channeled a few people about both Zukovsky and the A-24 tape, but was hesitant to post to the list as it would be difficult to respond to many requests for the tapes all at once. The Poetry Center and American Poetry Archives here at SF State taped the performance of A-24 that was done here. The date I have for it is 11/15/78. I don't believe I have releases from all of the performers (everyone's list of them was accurate) to sell the tape, so it is distributed only as a library tape for the price of membership ($20) in The Poetry Center. We also have the outtakes from the NET series Poetry: USA, including the Zukovsky program. It is 30 minutes, a very interesting tape, which sells, as Charles Watts indicated (thanks, Charles) for $125 and can be rented for $15. I can be reached here by email or by phone (415)338-1056 Moday -Thursday. Laura Moriarty Archives Director moriarty@sfsu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 15:33:07 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "H. T. KIRBY-SMITH" Organization: University of NC at Greensboro Subject: Graves tapes Caedmon Tape SWC 1066 is Graves reading poetry and from THE WHITE GODDESS. Tom Kirby-Smith English Department UNC-Greensboro Greensboro NC 27412 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 21:46:44 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: A24 Comments: cc: Kit Robinson Hi Kit, I wonder if there's anything else you can add to the discussion re- A24 in performance. How did it work? What felt awkward, if anything, in the tension between the music notation and the language notation? Would you recommend that it's worth working on a performance of A24 - with performance-writing students say? Any titbits of process, discussion that spring to mind? Am I right in remembering that this production followed on from several Poets Theatre performances, how did it feel to be working on something that was not written by people directly in that 'group' of writers and performers? simply lots of questions - I'm curious to know more love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 16:17:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: be advised: wcw qtd in this renga >On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Charles Alexander wrote: > >> >>On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: >> >> >> >>> >On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, George Bowering wrote: >> >>> > >> >>> >> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> >>> >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> >>> >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> >>> >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> >>> >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> >>> >> The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three >> >>> >> Something has changed in the nature of friendship >> >>> >> But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line >> >>> >> For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum >> >>> >> Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs >> >>> >> Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm >> >>> >> feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset >> >>> blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans >> >> on metaphors that the folks at the contagious hospital >> >thought we might be weaned of early, late, whatever >> the contagious wind strikes a chord with nothing ventured >> maimed, my parents won't let me play with density because its quantity is known, and they prefer unknowns ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 18:45:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Scheil Subject: Re: Dist. or Bust (i.e., New Book) Comments: To: Charles Alexander In-Reply-To: <199509201411.JAA02415@freedom.mtn.org> Dear Charles, Could you send me a catalog or brochure for Chax press? I'm the inv. manager for Schuler Books here in Grand Rapids, MI. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 15:50:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: you & an army of mixed metaphors and forgotten half-truths... where would we be? again: look at rimbaud, where wcw visited; it was there. but you'll find similarly, if differently phrased, positions in (oddly, given wcw's rejection) keats, moving poetry away from the ego (and representation, too). no? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 16:13:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: you & an army of mixed metaphors and forgotten half-truths... burt: it's the passage in jeffrey timmons' note of sept. 15th; it's that i initially suggested one "unpack" and that i was "unpacking" in the note to you. my heavens, this gets complicated; i wish they'd allow me more than three lines. -ed ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 15:55:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: you & an army of mixed metaphors and forgotten half-truths... as for "where would we be without . . . ," that's not the issue. it's whether we need a shift out of that tradition, put it in mothballs for a while (or that classroom, same thing). ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 16:02:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: you & an army of mixed metaphors and forgotten half-truths... yes, steve, there are moments when "something trivial achieves a shining presence," but it's still a way of seeing and a language that doesn't compel as much anymore. and curiously, moore does those transformations much better. dickinson, too. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 20:32:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the reich In-Reply-To: <199509201749.KAA18159@bob.indirect.com> On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Jurphy Sowering Borge wrote > > > >> >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> >incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured > >> >the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is > >> >Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes > >> >who pester as obsession or a hobby or as fraction of a prayer, > >> >towering above us with a lot of bothersome >>>>>>>>>>>>,s > >> measured at density 21.5 along with a "d" added to first name > >> of DDaniel who saw Adonai and believe me he was no Adonis > although reputation tends to weave a little of transfixive > which sticks to your clothes and makes you ineluctable ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 20:39:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix... In-Reply-To: <199509201749.KAA18199@bob.indirect.com> Some fans of Dick Assman wrote > >> >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books > >> >incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured > >> >the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is > >> >Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes > >> >of Palookaville & the dead heroes of Guadalajara > >> >empowering scores of liberated mozos intent of Lacanian > >> libretti, salted with much, much more than roughage added to taste > >> doughboys & doughgirls, behaving like superfluous enigmas > puzzling in contagious ways over the simplest rides to > the grotto of our Lady of Corollaries during the Feast of the Enormity ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 15:53:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: publications/anagram In-Reply-To: <199509192115.VAA26672@fraser.sfu.ca> from "George Bowering" at Sep 19, 95 02:15:33 pm Jeffrey Timmons = Jiffy Meets Morn ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 15:37:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Distribution or Shoot In-Reply-To: from "Herb Levy" at Sep 20, 95 08:31:04 am Thanks, Herb. Actually, _Shoot!_ was published in Toronto about a year ago. But let me know whether you haver any hot Albanian publishers looking for a good time. Did you see/hear anything of Cecil while he was there last week? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 15:28:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix... In-Reply-To: <199509201749.KAA18199@bob.indirect.com> from "Sheila E. Murphy" at Sep 20, 95 10:49:53 am On the day before the equinox, Lionel Trilling wrote: In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes of Palookaville & the dead heroes of Guadalajara empowering scores of liberated mozos intent of Lacanian libretti, salted with much, much more than roughage added to taste doughboys & doughgirls, behaving like superfluous enigmas puzzling in contagious ways over the simplest rides to San Luis Obispo, home of cowering Democrats on soya diets ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 15:41:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: be advised: wcw qtd in this renga In-Reply-To: from "Jorge Guitart" at Sep 20, 95 11:11:31 am > > On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > > > >On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > > > > > >> >On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, George Bowering wrote: > > >> >The hell I did! GB > > >> >> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > >> >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > >> >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > >> >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > >> >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > >> >> The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three > > >> >> Something has changed in the nature of friendship > > >> >> But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line > > >> >> For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum > > >> >> Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs > > >> >> Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm > > >> >> feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset > > >> blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans > > > on metaphors that the folks at the contagious hospital > > thought we might be weaned of early, late, whatever, > > but I am taking the broken glass as a token of my first epiphany > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 15:56:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Sheila, Cris & Jorge's Excellent Adventure In-Reply-To: <9509192038.aa16995@post.demon.co.uk> from "cris cheek" at Sep 19, 95 08:46:55 pm > > >> >>> >SEM-CC-JG BRANCH 19/9/95 C adding to J adding to C adding to S > >> >>in the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.And flew > >> >>spending the bulk of closure with sentient scoops > >> >>that fluke picnic shot out of these worlds we spread been-to > >> >>say that the center cannot hold the nose tackle much longer > >> >>than a clam can sleeve out of incarceration baldly > >> >>go where others fear to operate the biggest donors hive > >> >>& where Mars collides with the small world of "It's a small world" > >> >>ripe for macroscopes to pump or slice or butterfly away > >> >>from that ardent bugged heliotrope and pledge allegiance through > >> >>ostension--we stopped short of the shortstop's stigmata > >> >>this time pencilled in as tangly wisps instead of memory > >> >>detonations: but don't forget to dismember the doloroso > >> >>I left in the rain by mistake whilst on business vocation > >> >>the night I told you to stop referring to me as Ontology Boy > >> >and you replied all shrouded in epistemology that it was glue we lacked > >> "ckab oups frert cdl-fdl!!" with elvis projecting "uhhhh, I'm all stuck > >>in the epoxy I used to cement my relationship w/ Thou, the Dead Quaker > who who traipses a paradigm sweat under lights and then fixes >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>groin>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 21:11:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: LZ & bookshop chickenshit Dear Lisa: Thanks for the added perspective. I thought that I was saying about bookbuyers basically what you say about them, albeit from my own crabby armchair. What I meant by "chickenshit" was, in fact, more directed toward the chain bookstores (and I don't think there's an anti-experimental or -small press conspiracy there either), who don't want to be bothered with patchwork distribution and return policies, smaller orders (it's easier for them to order in bulk than 1 or 2 copies at a time), and so on. I certainly understand for smaller bookstores that there's a real (and legitimate) anxiety about taking chances with their shelf space, and the suggestions you and Herb Levy have outlined are excellent ones that I feel really stupid about not going the extra step to mention before I posted. It was not my intention to trash anyone for not stocking my taste in poetry, and I used to work in (several) record stores, so I have been on the other side of the counter and know what that's like too. We in S.F. have all but lost Small Press Traffic (it's relegated to 4 or 5 shelves in another bookstore at Noe and Market, a storage space in Colma, and Dodie's reading series), and so we may have to learn this lesson the hard way. Steve ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 22:00:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: you & an army of mixed metaphors and forgotten half-truths... In-Reply-To: <01HVI6JQI8NI8WZRDF@VAXC.STEVENS-TECH.EDU> On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Edward Foster wrote: > yes, steve, there are moments when "something trivial achieves a shining presence," but it's still a way of seeing and a language that doesn't compel as much anymore. and curiously, moore does those transformations much better. dickinson, too. Last post on this: Sure, ed, and Chaucer just plain don't make sense! Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 21:50:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: Self-disclosure In-Reply-To: I just want to thank people for announcing their publications Thanks, Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 21:47:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: you & an army of mixed metaphors and forgotten half-truths... In-Reply-To: <199509200331.UAA14052@slip-1.slip.net> On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Steve Carll wrote: > This is probably the concomitant danger of the attempt to poetize trivia, to > champion "simple everyday speech." Certainly when WCW's effort fails, the > trivia stays trivial and the poetry joins it. I'm not sure I can agree that WcW fails. In fact, as my posts have suggested, he is important because he succeeded so well at turning poetry to the everyday. If the everyday is trivial, well, then I too wish we could live in the poems we all dream. The everyday is not trivial and is worthy of poetry. Jeffrey ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 22:52:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Online Directory of Poets - PLEASE READ - -- Request For Permission -- We are, at the EPC, ready to mount a new service, the *Online Directory of Poets*. This will be a listing (and its first iteration is based on the list of subscribers to Poetics) of people using e-mail with Poetics interests. As planned, the list will be alphabetical by name and will give an e-mail address. The e-mail address will be highlighted so that when you look up someone you can simply click on their address and send a message to them directly from the EPC. (A sort of "active" directory.) -->>>>IMPORTANT<<<<-- Since I used a list based on subscribers to this list, if you do NOT want to be listed in this directory, please e-mail me directly as soon as you can and I will remove your name!!! Thanks! Loss lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 21:06:43 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: eric pape Subject: Re: you & an army of mixed metaphors and forgotten half-truths... In-Reply-To: <01HVI65ZM3GY8WZRDF@VAXC.STEVENS-TECH.EDU> ed, et al: I toofind WCW boring. But it may be that I do because he is so easily imitated. So, I sometimes find O'Hara, Ginsburg, Hejinian, boring for the same reasons. Was it Picasso who said, very very roughly, "The most original art is ugly. Then someone comes along and makes it pretty." I don't know but can the term, or the concept, "boring" apply in the same way? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 23:01:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: you & an army of mixed metaphors and forgotten half-truths... In-Reply-To: <01HVI65ZM3GY8WZRDF@VAXC.STEVENS-TECH.EDU> On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Edward Foster wrote: > where would we be? again: look at rimbaud, where wcw visited; it was there. but you'll find similarly, if differently phrased, positions in (oddly, given wcw's rejection) keats, moving poetry away from the ego (and representation, too). no? Darn it . . . drawn in yet again: sure different positions, but doesn't your statement assume that you can purge the "tradition" of WcW's presence? That we don't need him? Sure, there were alternatives to him, differently phrased positions, certainly, but you are arguing against history here. Rimbaud and Keats and WcW made different versions of poetics available. Just as you must deal with Whitman, you must deal with WcW's influence (though admitedly on a whole different scale). It's not a question of substituting different versions of poetics for another (though this raises an interesting question of just that possibility), but, rather, of attending to the polyphony of different voices in dialogue with each other. Obviously, wcw is in dialogue with keats, etc, rejecting him, what have you. Perhaps WcW has obscured keats to us or vice versa, but rather than simply deny wcw's influence or presence in american poetics maybe we should be accounting for what he was writing against (specifically) and how that has filtered our perceptions of him and those whom he writes against. I think Ed makes this point, perhaps, though in three lines or less it must be difficult. Yes, someone give Ed more lines. Please. Most importantly, I am willing to go along with WcW and what he was writing against. If there were alternatives to his version that were obscured by his canonization I'd be willing to entertain thoughts on them. Jeffrey Timmons (Jiffy Meets Morn) PS: Thanks George, I was feeling left out! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 02:28:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: you & an army of mixed metaphors and forgotten half-truths... Ed, Could you spell out your position re WCW & his supposed lack of relevance more clearly, (I *might* agree given a context)-- Not trying to start a fight. The discussion reminds me a bit of Cage's remarks about "masterpieces"-- that a masterpiece is something one continues to find something new in, but that doesn't seem to hold true. Seems that we can actually use up a piece of art. . . Is that (uh-oh) post modern? Is Duchamp still "new"? If not what the hell is? Or is it a mistake to look for something new? If WCW's used up, Olson must be to. Berrigan seems new to me, but how describe. . . Is it a matter of attitude? of the poet &/or the reader? bla bla bla? --Rod ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 02:43:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the reich In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> >incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured > >> >the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is > >> >Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes > >> >who pester as obsession or a hobby or as fraction of a prayer, > >> >towering above us with a lot of bothersome >>>>>>>>>>>>,s > >> measured at density 21.5 along with a "d" added to first name > >> of DDaniel who saw Adonai and believe me he was no Adonis > although reputation tends to weave a little of transfixive > which sticks to your clothes and makes you ineluctable elision, like a lit bit of sacrificial eclecticism (a-singin' "stone me to to my soul") ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 02:48:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: WCW It may be a sad truth, but the reality is that if Spring & All were published for the first time today, it would still be the most innovative and forward thinking book of the year, and would have been so in any of the past 25 years. How we have gone from that to the current norm of bland one-page abstract lyrics befuddles me.... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 08:28:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "CAROLYN L. FORCHE-MATTISON" Subject: MFA Agents/Dangerous Poets In reference, I think, to the "dangerous" thread, Aldon deployed superb wit in his reference to FBI/MFA agents. I want to suggest, however, that this situation is perhaps changing. The academy has been infiltrated at Buffalo, UC Santa Cruz and (?). Here at George Mason's MFA program (which has at least five subscribers to this list), I was able to bring Rod Smith into the teaching fold, and in the past year and a half we've had Susan Howe and Leslie Scalapino among the few two-day residencies we can afford. This fall, it's Rosemarie Waldrop. A number of the poet-grad students are writing linguistically innovative work and frequent Rod's Bridge Street Books. The student mag, -Phoebe- featured work of interest to this list in the last issue. I don't know what's happening elsewhere, as I've always been somewhat isolated, but this isn't a closed shop. BTW, the new person at AWP's newsletter, The Chronicle (also now based here) is a subscriber to this list, and would welcome essays from any of you. I'm not naive about that audience, so why not begin with something on how to *read*. Warmest regards, Carolyn ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 08:32:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: yet another anagram In-Reply-To: <199509210252.WAA16097@lictor.acsu.buffalo.edu> Loss Pequeno Glazier = "long sleaze-quip rose" or "gloss no equal prize" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 10:04:49 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: Online Directory of Poets - PLEASE READ - how can we subscribe to the On Line Directory of Poets? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 10:21:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: How it Happened How It Happened for Ron Silliman After centuries, it was finally clear-- We had lost it. But where did it go? We asked the witch, hiding behind the television, But she was only picking her nose. The validation Had come through on the backs of stormtroopers In plaid, but when we went to apply it To our balance, some goons, it turned out, Had hauled away our collateral in a wheelbarrow. "No ideas but in love songs," said the radio, And it went straight into all our poems, Which were utterly, utterly up front About the situation. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 10:35:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Re: Online Directory of Poets In-Reply-To: <00996B92.267F7A34.20@admin.njit.edu> from "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" at Sep 21, 95 10:04:49 am > how can we subscribe to the On Line Directory of Poets? It's not a subscription type thing. You simply go to it and use it. When it's put online (next week I think), you can access it through the World-Wide Web at the Electronic Poetry Center: http:/writing.upenn.edu/epc Follow the link for authors, then you will see a link to the directory. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 10:53:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Re: Online Directory of Poets (fwd) > > how can we subscribe to the On Line Directory of Poets? > > When it's put online (next week I think), you can access it through > the World-Wide Web at the Electronic Poetry Center: > > http:/writing.upenn.edu/epc > > Follow the link for authors, then you will see a link to the > directory. > I have also placed a link to it from the EPC home page (the url given above). ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 10:56:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: MFA Agents/Dangerous Poets In-Reply-To: What Carolyn said. Yes, yes, yes, please. The only way to divert the stream of commodified flush-left-first-person-narrative-(you know what I mean) poetics is to infiltrate. Send articles to my attention: Gwyn McVay AWP Chronicle Associated Writing Programs Tallwood House, Mail Stop 1E3 George Mason University Fairfax, VA 22030 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 09:58:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "B. Cassidy" Subject: Re: MFA Agents/Dangerous Poets In-Reply-To: To build off of what Carolyn has said is happenning at GM, I thought it might be of interest to the list to know what's been happenning here at (the dreaded) Writer's Workshops at The U of Iowa. 1) The most single most requested poet in a pole of the the students this semester for who they would like to see come and give a reading was Michael Palmer. So, he's coming in November. 2) In the second year class (my class), out of approx. 25 students, fully one third of them is working quite consciously in a "language" or "avante-guard" tradition, and at least one-half (though probably more) of the second year class, reads and is familiar and is at least partially influenced by the "language" poets. 3) Perhaps most interesting (and wonderful), however, is that next semester (Jan.), Bob Perelman will be the visiting faculty member in the WS. Talk about infiltration.... SO, it seems things are changing all over, even at the most "established" of the "establishment". Faculty here are finding themselves having to at least address "language" poetry in class. In fact, over the summer in a seminar in contemporary poetry, the teacher asked who the students were reading and who they would like to discuss during the class, and EVERY one of them mentioned an "experimental" writer. I'm not sure what to make of it...but I'm happy it's happening. Apologies for all terms in quotes -- it seems silly to use them any other way. Best, Brian Cassidy > In reference, I think, to the "dangerous" thread, Aldon deployed superb > wit in his reference to FBI/MFA agents. I want to suggest, however, that > this situation is perhaps changing. The academy has been infiltrated at > Buffalo, UC Santa Cruz and (?). Here at George Mason's MFA program > (which has at least five subscribers to this list), I was able to bring > Rod Smith into the teaching fold, and in the past year and a half we've > had Susan Howe and Leslie Scalapino among the few two-day residencies we > can afford. This fall, it's Rosemarie Waldrop. A number of the > poet-grad students are writing linguistically innovative work and > frequent Rod's Bridge Street Books. The student mag, -Phoebe- featured > work of interest to this list in the last issue. I don't know what's > happening elsewhere, as I've always been somewhat isolated, but this > isn't a closed shop. BTW, the new person at AWP's newsletter, The > Chronicle (also now based here) is a subscriber to this list, and would > welcome essays from any of you. I'm not naive about that audience, so > why not begin with something on how to *read*. > > Warmest regards, > > Carolyn > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 12:43:43 -0400 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: Online Directory of Poets >http:/writing.upenn.edu/epc should be: >http://writing.upenn.edu/epc ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:21:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Self-disclosure hi guys. tried to lurk for a day. but timmon's thanks for adverting our publications lured me out: if anyone's going to the beat art exhibit at the whitney in nyc, i've got a piece in the catalogue. i tried to walk a fine line between critique and appreciation, of course i'll be accused of softpedaling critique or underappreciating, but hey, life's short, art's longish but equally brutish sometimes. so, now that i'm on aol i have more sympathy w/ the renga-critiquers. those yummy lines just don't look as nice on the truncated screen aol provides, and the typeface is too big --i miss my old account and its aesthetic-- but i love those wow lines jorge sheila et al --did i miss something in transit about titling rengas "renga"? md ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:23:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Sheila, Chris & Jorge's Excellent Adventure i'm going crazy with the thrill of your rengalines baby i can't get enough of them i just wish (whow whow wohw) i could read them more fluently , fluidly as i've been told my old gender's spozed to--but i can't get w/ da program n it comes out all fragmenty on my screen. god, send me your humble servant one continuouslongrengaorgasm rather than these sparks and spikes all broken up w/ e-symptoms, tho there are those who say that's all part of the fun. i really am going nuts in this alerted altered renga-itis w/drawal space, yes i've gone completely over the edge. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 09:44:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kit Robinson Subject: A-24 Reply to: A-24 Cris, To answer some of your questions out of order I can't remember everything but. . . . Most of the Poets Theater work happened AFTER A-24. By '78 maybe only a performance of FOH's Try! Try! at the Grand Piano (w/ Carla Harryman, Nick Robinson, & . . . John Mason?) and maybe a short play by Carla &/or Eileen Corder had been done. The Big Productions (3rd Man, Mister Sister, The Alps, Collateral, Particle Arms, Under the Midwest, etc.) at Studio Eremos came later. As for A-24, yeah, it was fun. A lot of hard work, intense rehearsals, trying to get the timing right. I don't remember awkwardness, just the difficulty of staying on the beat and still rendering the proper expression, not to mention dynamics. As in theater, a marvelous way to get to know a work. And I think we all enjoyed the experience of working in a group, especially as writers normally don't (all rengae aside). Kit ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 14:27:24 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: MFA Agents/Dangerous Poets Building on what Aldon and Carolyn are saying about inclusion into a let us say mainstream, I can't help but note in this context Hank Lazer's essay in the recenet APR of Charles Bernstein (though the only poems of Charles' I recall seeing printed there in the past have been, to my mind, uncharacteristic of his work over all and more like the kind of stuff one usually sees in APR--but then again maybe the journal is changing, seeing as how it has such a large spread on Armand Schwerner who is not a Language poet but whose work is by no means for the casual reader). Burt Kimmelman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 16:15:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: be advised: wcw qtd in this renga In-Reply-To: <199509202241.WAA14900@fraser.sfu.ca> on the day of the equinox Sheila, George and Jorge rode on Lionel trains and sent rengas from the Finland Station "The hell I did! GB" > > > > >> >> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > > >> >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > > >> >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > > >> >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > > >> >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > > >> >> The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three > > > >> >> Something has changed in the nature of friendship > > > >> >> But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line > > > >> >> For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum > > > >> >> Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs > > > >> >> Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm > > > >> >> feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset > > > >> blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans > > > > on metaphors that the folks at the contagious hospital > > > thought we might be weaned of early, late, whatever, > > >but I am taking the broken glass as a token of my first epiphany sassafras is my powerlessness to split scintillas in the mist ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 16:07:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: be advised: wcw qtd in this renga In-Reply-To: <199509202317.QAA03445@bob.indirect.com> On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Charles Alexander wrote: > > > >> >>On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> >On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, George Bowering wrote: > >> >>> > > >> >>> >> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> >>> >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> >>> >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> >>> >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> >>> >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> >>> >> The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three > >> >>> >> Something has changed in the nature of friendship > >> >>> >> But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line > >> >>> >> For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum > >> >>> >> Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs > >> >>> >> Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm > >> >>> >> feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset > >> >>> blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans > >> >> on metaphors that the folks at the contagious hospital > >> >thought we might be weaned of early, late, whatever > >> the contagious wind strikes a chord with nothing ventured nothing maimed, my parents won't let me play with density because its quantity is known, and they prefer unknowns like the time we went to the ruins of sensible ideas and mom ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 16:33:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: renga writing --a proposal Comments: To: poetics let's start a new renga. everybody, anybody, write a first line. Rules to follow: have only ten words maximum per line (so renga fits in maria's screen) when you add your line, erase chevron from line you are adding to as well as "On (date) (name of rengan) wrote:" message. ok? thanks jorge ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:37:48 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Self-disclosure Maria, you'll be happy to know that some would-be renga-line contributors are still being shut out as before. Funny thing is it was supposed to be one line from everyone wasn't it? Not that I CARE that much. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:42:16 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: WCW Who in hell wd actually publish Spring & All today and then who if anyone would stock it on shelf? Volunteers? I reckon it ought to be re-written to meet contemporary editorial requirements, with the text in ORDER for instance. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 16:53:53 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: eric pape Subject: Re: MFA Agents/Dangerous Poets In-Reply-To: MFA programs may be the best recruitment agency yet developed for the avant-garde (oppositional, experimental, pomo, multiculti, etc etc). Due to its positioning among the academy, where some (few) folks are beginning (just now) to question conventional modes of writing, workshop type stuff (as it is stereotyped) seems more and more theoretically bankrupt. The best poets feel this, and look elsewhere.But... The AWP is dead. Long live..........the AWP? We'll see. I know I have still go a very long way to go before I can finally purge the workshop from my writing. Thanks, Eric. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:47:21 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Edwards <100344.2546@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: London readings Forthcoming readings in London likely to be of interest to anyone from this list who happens to be in town... SubVoicive at The Three Cups, Sandland St, WC1, Tuesdays at 8.00pm: 26 Sept Spencer Selby / Gavin Selerie 10 Oct Basil King / John Muckle 24 Oct Tim Fletcher / Stan Trevor 7 Nov Adrian Clarke / Allen Fisher 21 Nov John Wilkinson / Ken Edwards 5 Dec "Quick Hits" (sampling by numerous performers) Poets & Writers at the East-West Gallery, 8 Blenheim Crescent, W11, usually Mondays at 7.30pm: 9 Oct Nathaniel Tarn 23 Oct Thor Vilhalmsson / Matthias Johannessen (Icelandic writers) 6 Nov British Small Press series: 2. Coracle Press 27 Nov Eleni Sikelianos / Tim Atkins / Laird Hunt 11 Dec British Small Press series: 3. Gaberbocchus Press ...and on 16 Oct promoter Mike Goldmark is staging a commemoration of the famous Albert Hall gig of the 1960s; 1995's performers are: Kathy Acker, Aidan Dun, Brendan Kennelly, Douglas Oliver, Iain Sinclair, Brian Catling, Allen Ginsberg, Sorley MacLean, Tom Pickard, Aaron Williamson, cris cheek, Michael Horovitz, Alice Notley, Denise Riley, Benjamin Zephaniah. A bizarre motley, if you ask me. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:16:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: Re: renga writing --a proposal let's start a new renga. everybody, anybody, write a first line. Rules to follow: have only ten words maximum per line (so renga fits in maria's screen) when you add your line, erase chevron from line you are adding to as well as "On (date) (name of rengan) wrote:" message. ok? thanks jorge said the giant as she booted up her pc ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 18:37:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Watts Subject: bye for awhile Folks, I'll be away from e-mail for maybe as long as six weeks. I'll miss the ongoing talk -- but will catch up with the archive when I get back to the screen. Meanwhile, anyone who wants to can get in touch via snail mail: Charles Watts, 1862 Parker Street, Vancouver, B.C. V5L 2L1, or by phone, 604-251-4378. The project to publish papers given at the Robin Blaser conference last June is ongoing; if you still haven't sent us a copy of your panel presentation (nearly thirty people have so far), please do so. If you have, my apologies for not having acknowledged receipt of your piece; I've been more than busy lately. You'll be hearing from us (me and Ted Byrne) as we have more to report, later in the fall. So long for now, Charles Watts cwatts@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 22:34:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ann Lauterbach Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 19 Sep 1... Jail is interesting. The problem is you cannot get out, even when you are so clearly in. This is probably less about poetry than it is about the list to which you subscribe but which you cannot ever read because the machine will not allow you to. (For machine read the form of the setting, or the setting of the form.) Glad for the equinox. Best wishes to those who continue to read what is written. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 20:31:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: be advised: wcw qtd in this decade In-Reply-To: from "Jorge Guitart" at Sep 21, 95 04:15:34 pm > > on the day of the equinox Sheila, George and Jorge rode on Lionel trains > and sent rengas from the Finland Station > > "The hell I did! GB" > > > > > >> >> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > > > >> >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > > > >> >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > > > >> >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > > > >> >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > > > >> >> The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three > > > > >> >> Something has changed in the nature of friendship > > > > >> >> But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line > > > >> >> For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum > > > > >> >> Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs > > > > >> >> Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm > > > > >> >> feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset > > > > >> blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans > > > > > on metaphors that the folks at the contagious hospital > thought we might be weaned of early, late, whatever, but I am taking the broken glass as a token of my first epiphany sassafras is my powerlessness to split scintillas in the mist the outside corner, showering early while the Pirates ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 20:37:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: be advised: wcw qtd in this renga > >> > >> >> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> > >> >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> > >> >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> > >> >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> > >> >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> > >> >> The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three >> > >> >> Something has changed in the nature of friendship >> > >> >> But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line >> > >> >> For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum >> > >> >> Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs >> > >> >> Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm >> > >> >> feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset >> > >> blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans >> > > on metaphors that the folks at the contagious hospital >> > thought we might be weaned of early, late, whatever, >> > but I am taking the broken glass as a token of my first epiphany sans snow, expansive though, fluent in half tones ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 20:41:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the reich >On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Jurphy Sowering Borge wrote >> > >> >> >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> >> >incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured >> >> >the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is >> >> >Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes >> >> >who pester as obsession or a hobby or as fraction of a prayer, >> >> >towering above us with a lot of bothersome >>>>>>>>>>>>,s >> >> measured at density 21.5 along with a "d" added to first name >> >> of DDaniel who saw Adonai and believe me he was no Adonis >> although reputation tends to weave a little of transfixive >> which sticks to your clothes and makes you ineluctable as timpanic surface potable though shrill ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 20:43:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix... >Some fans of Dick Assman wrote > >> >> >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books >> >> >incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured >> >> >the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is >> >> >Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes >> >> >of Palookaville & the dead heroes of Guadalajara >> >> >empowering scores of liberated mozos intent of Lacanian >> >> libretti, salted with much, much more than roughage added to taste >> >> doughboys & doughgirls, behaving like superfluous enigmas >> puzzling in contagious ways over the simplest rides to >> the grotto of our Lady of Corollaries during the Feast of the Enormity with widgets handprinted with obvious mistakes in limited editions ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 22:52:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Self-disclosure And another book to announce. Minnesota Center for Book Arts is publishing TALKING THE BOUNDLESS BOOK: ART, LANGUAGE, AND THE BOOK ARTS. I compiled and edited the collection of talks which were given at Minn. Center for Book Arts's 1994 symposium, Art & Language: Re-Reading the Boundless Book. I wrote the introduction, and there are essays by Dick Higgins, Johanna Drucker, Steven Clay, Charles Bernstein, Susan Bee, Amos Paul Kennedy Jr., Byron Clercx, Alison Knowles, Jo Anne Paschall, Karen Wirth, Katherine Kuehn, Linda Reinfeld & Toshi Ishihara, Colette Gaiter, and Brad Freeman. The essays range from artists talking about their own works and those which have influenced them, to pieces on hermeneutics and the book arts, the economics of small press/poetry publishing, the social efficacy of the book arts, and more. The book will be available the second week of November. Orders are being taken now by Ann Somers Minnesota Center for Book Arts 24 North Third Street Minneapolis, MN 55401 612-338-3634 The price is $15.95. A $4 shipping/handling charge will be added as well. D.A.P is distributing the book to bookstores, and they are a good art publication distributor, so you should see it in at least some bookstores before Christmas. Unfortunately, orders can not be taken online. If the center gives me a more detailed announcement, I may post again about this before long. Charles Alexander Chax Press P.O. Box 19178 Minneapolis, MN 55419-0178 612-721-6063 (phone & fax) chax@mtn.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 20:52:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: yet another anagram In-Reply-To: from "Gwyn McVay" at Sep 21, 95 08:32:04 am Louis Cabri = Boils Curia or Curia Boils ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 20:57:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: renga - the sequel hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 23:00:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix... On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Charles Alexander wrote: Some ink-daubbed wretches wrote: In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books of Palookaville & the dead heroes of Guadalajara empowering scores of liberated mozos intent of Lacanian libretti, salted with much, much more than roughage added to taste or tremolo, finding the shores awash with alphabet, proclaiming nothing nutting nothing a-merrily over my dead bodies in abandon where wrote was written, stepping one four nine ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 21:03:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: be advised: wcw qtd in this renga >on the day of the equinox Sheila, George and Jorge rode on Lionel trains >and sent rengas from the Finland Station > >"The hell I did! GB" > >> >> > > >> >> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> > > >> >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> > > >> >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> > > >> >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> > > >> >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> > > >> >> The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three >> > > >> >> Something has changed in the nature of friendship >> > > >> >> But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line >> > > >> >> For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum >> > > >> >> Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs >> > > >> >> Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm >> > > >> >> feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset >> > > >> blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans >> > > > on metaphors that the folks at the contagious hospital >> > > thought we might be weaned of early, late, whatever, > > > >but I am taking the broken glass as a token of my first epiphany > sassafras is my powerlessness to split scintillas in the mist of lathering first frost as noon comes on like torqued weed ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 21:05:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: be advised: wcw qtd in this renga In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three Something has changed in the nature of friendship But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans on metaphors that the folks at the contagious hospital thought we might be weaned of early, late, whatever the contagious wind strikes a chord with nothing ventured nothing maimed, my parents won't let me play with density because its quantity is known, and they prefer unknowns like the time we went to the ruins of sensible ideas and mom sold ice blue secret back to vendors parked where no shade ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 23:09:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: renga - the sequel hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids stuffs morton's insistence on intermittency shaking freely ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 21:09:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: be advised: wcw qtd in this renga In-Reply-To: <199509202317.QAA03445@bob.indirect.com> from "Sheila E. Murphy" at Sep 20, 95 04:17:20 pm On Sun, 21 Sep 1995, Sara Teasdale wrote: > >> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> >>> >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> >>> >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> >>> >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> >>> >> The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three >>> >> Something has changed in the nature of friendship > >> >>> >> But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line >>> >> For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum > >> Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs > >> >>> >> Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm > >> >>> >> feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset >> blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans > >> >> on metaphors that the folks at the contagious hospital >thought we might be weaned of early, late, whatever > the contagious wind strikes a chord with nothing ventured >> maimed, my parents won't let me play with density because its quantity is known, and they prefer unknowns to Belarus stockmen deflowering everything in sight, grim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 21:17:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: renga - the sequel In-Reply-To: <199509220357.UAA15141@bob.indirect.com> from "Sheila E. Murphy" at Sep 21, 95 08:57:16 pm hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids made by Chevettes sliding off the I5 south of Tacoma ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 21:55:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix... >Some fans of Dick Assman wrote > >> >> >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books >> >> >incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured >> >> >the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is >> >> >Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes >> >> >of Palookaville & the dead heroes of Guadalajara >> >> >empowering scores of liberated mozos intent of Lacanian >> >> libretti, salted with much, much more than roughage added to taste >> >> doughboys & doughgirls, behaving like superfluous enigmas >> puzzling in contagious ways over the simplest rides to >> the grotto of our Lady of Corollaries during the Feast of the Enormity >with widgets handprinted with obvious mistakes in limited editions shrink-wrapped to keep-out dangerfields and glut shelves of ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 22:05:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Renga is freedom to act. So I will not follow a >Rengaroo! Wildebeests are per EB online headed Info for those who feel slighted or ignored: old threads are not dead but waiting in the Wings. Also, have you not noted how many times a poster responds to a line using a pseudonym to get things going? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 01:31:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Blair Seagram Subject: Replies and thanks Herb Levy and Zukofsky inquiries: I didn't respond to my messages last night and I'm not through today's, but I see that Herb Levy has thanked the list for the Zukofsky posts so I want to stop my reading now and thank everyone as well. It would have been better to say it sooner. I would also like to make a public thanks to Herb who was so kind and generous to make the inquiries for me. I have all the material and will see if I can get hold of a cassette or video. Tenny Nathanson: I congratulate them on their expansion Whoops, that should be 'their' expansion or "that there" Ya. Rod Smith: If Gotham doesn't come through with Bottom I would love to get it through you. They told me it would be a couple of weeks, so I'll be in touch with you then and let you know whether they received it. If the criteria for being a New Yorker, is being (creatively) rude on a (fairly) regular basis, I qualify. As far as the bearded man in St Marks, for some reason, I had the idea he was the owner of the store. I don't know why. And I think I know the man you are referring to at the Ear Inn and for some reason I have the same thought about him. I think of him as the owner. It's an unconscious assumption I have made, I guess, without a qualifying reason. Perhaps it's the sense of authority they have, and I don't mean that negatively. People with books: I can see there are people who run bookstores on this list and I can see that some of them are upset. I can only say that I have never had an encounter in a bookstore like the one in St Marks, as far as I can remember. I kind of think of bookstores as benign rather peaceful places. Anyway ti's great to get all this info about where to buy books. I should start a d base b e s t w i s he s b l a i r ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 22:37:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: oh really? >Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 21:06:43 CDT >From: eric pape >Subject: Re: you & an army of mixed metaphors and forgotten half-truths... > >ed, et al: I toofind WCW boring. But it may be that I do because he is so >easily imitated. So, I sometimes find O'Hara, Ginsburg, Hejinian, boring for >the same reasons. > Was it Picasso who said, very very roughly, "The most original art is >ugly. Then someone comes along and makes it pretty." I don't know >but can the term, or the concept, "boring" apply in the same way? O'Hara is easy to imitate????????????????? (often imitated, never duplicated?) lessee! (maybe this will replace renga? dueling O'Hara imitations [by those who think it's easy?] let the games begin?) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 16:39:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: Distribution Sorry I'm running late replying to this thread. I am currently setting up a small press distribution network in Sydney which will handle Australian small press stuff in the first instance but we may well be able to take some os stuff after we get up and running. I'll keep list members up to date. (we will also run stores at readings seminars and the like and it may be possible to take one or two copies of o/s magazines to sell on consignment that way - we'll see). There have been a number of attempts to set up distribution networks in Australia over the years. Most have them have fallen down because of the distances involved. You really need to have staff in each capital city and given Australia's small population and massive distances the economics just don't add up. We are trying to overcome this by limiting ourselves to the city and thye bookshops we know the best. We will be also be setting up a virtual bookshop so a whole lot of Australian small press publications should become available shortly via the net. regards mark (Australian Writing On Line) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 08:51:54 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: renga - the sequel hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids stuffs morton's insistence on intermittency shaking freely leaf stems cubes whirl about as hobbyist pauses to consider ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:56:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: MFA Agents/Dangerous Poets thanks to carolyn. good for you and your infiltrational activities. i've kinda given up on umn, tho i've just started to meet groovy folks in the mpls/stp area, un-univ. affiliated, who can be a meaningful support system for interesting heartful smart lit. how have you done it, do you find you need a lot of "clout" as a name-person? as an asst prof my efforts were stymied by a tradition-bound dept and my own lack of power, now as an assoc, i've lost interest in moving the unmoveables and am basically just taking care of myself and a handful of interested students.--md ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:22:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: you & an army of mixed metaphors and forgotten half-truths... wcw isn't boring because he's easily imitated; i don't find cage boring, tho i can't imagine anyone easier to imitate. the "boring" i think has to do with being somewhere between formerly useful and not quite historical (or commonly read as "was). ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:30:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: you & an army of mixed metaphors and forgotten half-truths... well, jeffrey, i'd have to argue with "dialogue," too; there are poetries that are interesting to read that way, but essentially that's bahktin, who got tossed out quite a while ago. and in any case what's interesting is writing, not "about." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:37:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: you & an army of mixed metaphors and forgotten half-truths... rod: the objection has many sides, but for one: in reading wcw, we are in a language/proposition that must have startling once; but we're not there now. it's great-grandpa talking and chloroform, dulling; we need to get OUT. -ed ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:41:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: WCW ron: i think the blandness (which i would locate primarily in places different from you--no surprise there) is in part due to the fact that spring & all is indeed read in certain quarters as if it were new. it's as new as g.o'k.: not! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:53:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: rebus aegis quotidian anger > > > >> >> Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs > > > >> >> Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm > > > >> >> feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset > > > >> blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans > > > > on metaphors that the folks at the contagious hospital > > > thought we might be weaned of early, late, whatever, > > >but I am taking the broken glass as a token of my first epiphany sassafras is my powerlessness to split scintillas in the mist we keep going back and forth about this poor guy's mane ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 12:05:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: Re: renga - the sequel hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids made by Chevettes sliding off the I5 south of Tacoma looking like a born-again, living like a heretic, listening ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 12:11:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: the happy gnostic of my household > >> >>> >> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> >>> >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> >>> >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> >>> >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> >>> >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> >>> >> The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three > >> >>> >> Something has changed in the nature of friendship > >> >>> >> But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line > >> >>> >> For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum > >> >>> >> Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs > >> >>> >> Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm > >> >>> >> feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset > >> >>> blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans > >> >> on metaphors that the folks at the contagious hospital > >> >thought we might be weaned of early, late, whatever > >> the contagious wind strikes a chord with nothing ventured nothing maimed, my parents won't let me play with density because its quantity is known, and they prefer unknowns like the time we went to the ruins of sensible ideas and mom slantways decolletage of the belated, the poems by John Ashbery ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:12:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: bye for awhile In-Reply-To: <199509220137.SAA13693@monashee.sfu.ca> from "Charles Watts" at Sep 21, 95 06:37:20 pm I too must be off for a bit. I will also miss the chatter, but I just havent the time to jump in or sift out my other mail. I will, however, still be on email, so anyone who needs to get in touch with me regarding TADS submissions can catch me at knighton@sfu.ca . Take care and the like. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:13:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix... >On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Charles Alexander wrote: > >Some ink-daubbed wretches wrote: > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books > >of Palookaville & the dead heroes of Guadalajara >empowering scores of liberated mozos intent of Lacanian >libretti, salted with much, much more than roughage added to taste >or tremolo, finding the shores awash with alphabet, proclaiming nothing >nutting nothing a-merrily over my dead bodies in abandon >where wrote was written, stepping one four nine passacaglia without the prefab little knobbed things on them ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:16:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: renga - the sequel >hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids >made by Chevettes sliding off the I5 south of Tacoma monikered bellwether of the pall ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:21:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Distribution or Shoot >Actually, _Shoot!_ was published in Toronto about a year ago. Shoot, I didn't know that. >Did you see/hear anything of Cecil while he was there last week? George, you have the dates right but the month wrong. The "greatest pianist in the world" (tm), and poet, Cecil Taylor is in Seattle for a week (doing a student workshop with no performance scheduled) in October, I think between the 14-18. I don't know how many poets are signed up for this, but, uh, perhaps this is this still more proof of the opening up of the workshop. Or maybe not. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:26:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix... In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books Incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes of Palookaville & the dead heroes of Guadalajara empowering scores of liberated mozos intent of Lacanian libretti, salted with much, much more than roughage added to taste doughboys & doughgirls, behaving like superfluous enigmas puzzling in contagious ways over the simplest rides to the grotto of our Lady of Corollaries during the Feast of the Enormity with widgets handprinted with obvious mistakes in limited editions shrink-wrapped to keep-out dangerfields and glut shelves of gutted elves' belongings so gravitied as not to quiver when ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:23:34 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gale Nelson Subject: Re: MFA Agents/Dangerous Poets In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:56:04 -0400 from Maria, While any bureaucracy has its pull toward closing down the movements toward energy, it seems as though the ripples can come from anywhere. When the department holds its nose to progress, then build connections outside the department. When the University suggests that it likes the way things are, still nominate your most interesting students for the prizes. I am forever optimistic that energy will have its impact on the bureaucratic system. I am time and again the bureaucrat at Brown, putting the brakes on one or another writers' great ideas (resources...limits...etc.). But we seem to respect the need to let writing float into the atmosphere in as many ways as possible. We have the great good fortune to have been founded by sorts who have cosmpolitan/energetic ideas about literature -- and have been able to sustain that tradition with new faculty hires. I'm sort of the oddball in the mix (what is known here as a hybrid appointment, a non-tenure-track administrator/teacher). The hours are frustrating, but the environment is explosiv. Gale Nelson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:39:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: New ListServe Pentium" Pro Processor Builds on Equity in Pentium Brand On Sept 19,1995 -- Intel Corporation announced that "Pentium" Pro processor" is the name for its next-generation microprocessor, previously code-named P6. The 5.5 million transistor device will be introduced in the fourth quarter of this calendar year, and will be targeted at workstation and high-end desktop systems, as well as cost-effective servers. The Pentium Pro processor will deliver the highest level of performance on 32-bit software for the Intel architecture. "By naming the next-generation processor `Pentium Pro,' Intel is building on the equity in the Pentium name while signifying that this is something beyond the original," explained G. Carl Everett, senior vice president, Desktop Products Group at Intel. "Among target market segments, the Pentium brand has an awareness level as high as 95 percent, according to our research. Intel believes the next-generation processor will benefit immensely from this association as we introduce it into the marketplace." The Pentium Pro processor is the first product of a parallel engineering effort undertaken by Intel in the early 1990s. Its unique Dynamic Execution engine was conceived when today's Pentium processor was still a software simulation. The compressed design cycles of new generations of chips have resulted in the delivery of some of the most powerful, low-cost microprocessors for a widening spectrum of uses. For example, Intel was recently selected by the U.S. Department of Energy to build a 9,000-processor computer based on the Pentium Pro processor that will deliver 10 times the performance of today's fastest supercomputers. For more information on the Pentium Pro processor visit Intel's home page on the World Wide Web at URL http://www.intel.com/. Coming soon, those visiting Intel's web site will have the opportunity to create a 3D image rendered on a Pentium Pro processor-based web server located in Oregon. For more information on the availability of the rendering machine, please subscribe to Intel's Pentium Pro processor mailing list by sending an e-mail to p6info-request@mailbag.intel.com and place the word "subscribe" in the first line of the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:38:19 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Alan Golding Subject: AWPAPRWCWS&A Associate Professor of English, U. of Louisville Phone: (502)-852-5918; e-mail: acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu On the AWP part, I'm greatly enjoying this mutual infiltration process (sounds like a new technique for brewing coffee); Gwyn, Carolyn, Brian, thanks for your recent posts, and it's good to have you as part of the conversation. I appreciate the anecdotal information (who's visiting where, who's reading whom, who's writing what)--for me it's simultaneously fun gossip, usable information, and stuff that helps me as a teacher to start de-monolithizing the institution of the workshop. (How's that for a neologism? No Bruce Andrews action doll could do better.) Burt K. mentioned Hank's APR essay. I actually think APR has always been a bit more eclectic than it's given credit for, but its eclecticism has less the quality of a commitment to multiple writing practices, more the quality of the startled twitch that one gives when one is suddenly woken up. ("Oops, looks like we'd better pay attention to this, even if we are 15 or 20 years late.") To put this another way, it's not yet clear to me that we're seeing, in APR, more than a kind of belated tokenism attached to one of the big names of LP. Charles is acutely attuned to these institutional/literary-sociological issues, it seems to me. I don't agree, then, Burt, that APR has published work of his in a traditionally APR mode. The poems they've carried are, in my reading, progressively more blatant gestures of resistance to and satires on that mode. If the editors don't get it after publishing the last one, "Memories," then I feel sorry for them. (And if they've already gotten it and aren't letting on, then good for them.) The real test for APR will be to see if they start publishing lesser-known or under-published "experimental" writers, as they do with their flush-left-first-persons. My last few years teaching incline me to agree with Ron about Spring and All. Students consistently find it a revelation, "a place of first permission" in Duncan's phrase. My problem with the recent discussions pro and con is that they seem to depend on reifying "The Red Wheelbarrow" as somehow synecdochic of WCW's whole practice. (Granted, one or two folks here and there mentioned other poems.) There's perverse precedent for this. New Critical resistance to WCW for decades was based on objections, repeated mantra-like in critic after critic, to "The Red Wheelbarrow." But one of the many great things about S&A is its polymorphousness, lost when it's reduced to a handful of anthology chestnuts. When I read the first ten lines or so of Spring and All #9 ("What about all this writing?") or #6 ("No that is not it") I hardly recognize the poet of "The Red Wheelbarrow" (not so titled, of course--not titled at all--in the original S & A). Alan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:13:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: All the news in fits In-Reply-To: <199509220404.VAA19409@sparta.SJSU.EDU> Thanks to Carolyn and all who followed with the good news of incipient change -- Mason & Phoebe were dead as Ed thinks Williams is back when I lived in the area -- & any opening out of the AWP news is news indeed -- I was getting tired of that "theory sucks & nobody can read anymore" line -- I too had noticed that a cadre of students was begninning to show up on campus actually asking to read people like Bernstein, Palmer, Hejinian, Berssenbrugge (of course, since I'd been playing the poetry of these folk on the radio in hopes of creating such a demand, I can't claim to be entirely caught off guard by this) But we are mostly taliking about small inroads -- the reading program at our campus is still firmly in the hands of a younger gurad with old guard ambitions -- I have never been able to get _any_ body added to the list -- Best I could do was get the guy to invite Mackey, who, living just over the hill, didn't cost much money in travel -- but he wouldn't even invite Nate till books from Cambridge & Coffee House & City Lights began popping up all over the place -- With all this infiltration going on, maybe we will soon be the old farts the new writers overthrow (perhaps with yet another return to Williams?!?) -- not a bad fate to contemplate -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:52:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kit Robinson Subject: Minna Street Reply to: Minna Street Poetry & Performance Series 111 MINNA STREET GALLERY (at 2nd St.) San Francisco Lyn Hejinian & Travis Ortiz September 18 / 8 o'clock / $3 donation ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 14:51:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: be advised: wcw qtd in this decade In-Reply-To: <199509220331.DAA02453@fraser.sfu.ca> > > > > on the day after the equinox Sheila, George and Jorge were returned to sender in a sealed wagon" > > "The hell we were!" GB" > > > > > > > > >> >> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > > > > >> >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > > > > >> >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > > > > >> >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > > > > >> >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > > > > >> >> The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three > > > > > >> >> Something has changed in the nature of friendship > > > > > >> >> But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line > > > > >> >> For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum > > > > > >> >> Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs > > > > > >> >> Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm > > > > > >> >> feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset > > > > > >> blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans > > > > > > on metaphors that the folks at the contagious hospital > > thought we might be weaned of early, late, whatever, > but I am taking the broken glass as a token of my first epiphany > sassafras is my powerlessness to split scintillas in the mist > the outside corner, showering early while the Pirates were irate without their pes & sent george bee to the miners ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:00:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: be advised: wcw qtd in this renga In-Reply-To: <199509220337.UAA14866@bob.indirect.com> > >> > >> >> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> > >> >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> > >> >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> > >> >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> > >> >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> > >> >> The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three > >> > >> >> Something has changed in the nature of friendship > >> > >> >> But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line > >> > >> >> For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum > >> > >> >> Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs > >> > >> >> Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm > >> > >> >> feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset > >> > >> blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans > >> > > on metaphors that the folks at the contagious hospital > >> > thought we might be weaned of early, late, whatever, > >> > but I am taking the broken glass as a token of my first epiphany > sans snow, expansive though, fluent in half tones > protomagnificent almost protosordid a proxy of ourselves as swellings ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 14:04:50 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: incursion / attaching to the host I am glad to hear of Carolyn Forche's work at George Mason. Intrigued too by the report from Iowa (& found that news rather surprising). Personally, I have been committed to such work for quite some time. Most recent results, the article on Charles Bernstein in APR, and a section called "The Other South" in the current issue of the New Orleans Review. The APR essay was 40 pages in manuscript. APR did not cut the essay at all--which surprised me. I sent it to them after calling Stephen Berg and asking if he'd be interested. He made no commitment whatsoever, said the essay would be read by the three editors. I asked for a quick response--I assumed they would not take it, and I would send it elsewhere quickly. After two months, I badgered them, and they took the essay (that was about a year ago). The special section in New Orleans Review--which includes work by several people on this list (Paul Naylor, Jake Berry, Lisa Samuels, etc.)--was put together by Bill Lavender. He did an extraordinary job, locating an exciting range of "southern" (US) poetry. If you're interested in the results, e-mail me backchannel. I have a few extra copies, and would be glad to mail you one. As in the previous discussion of independent bookstores ... if these and other similar incursions appeal to you, it might be worthwhile to write the editors and note your approval. I know that in the case of the New Orleans Review, letters of support would lend credibility to the wonderful work that Bill Lavender did. In fact, the magazine might continue to give him space if there is an interest in the "new" work. And as part of this purgative de-lurking, I also have a collaborative (with Yunte Huang) prose piece on Chinese poetry-politics in the current issue of Central Park. Hank Lazer ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:16:03 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: In case you haven't heard: From: MX%"ebs@ebbs.english.vt.edu" 22-SEP-1995 09:59:59.54 To: MX%"ebs@ebbs.english.vt.edu" CC: Subj: Re: H-ASIA: More NEH programs suspended; others have deadlines Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:56:11 -0400 Errors-To: lhat@ebbs.english.vt.edu Reply-To: ebs@ebbs.english.vt.edu Originator: ebs@ebbs.english.vt.edu Precedence: bulk From: wall andrew p <93297149@BROOKES.AC.UK> To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: H-ASIA: More NEH programs suspended; others have deadlines X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas See below. Martha ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > Regarding the NEH cutbacks and new program deadlines, here >is a listing that came through H-Asia 2 days ago. >Andrew Cohen >------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- > >Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 16:41:48 -0700 >Reply-To: H-Net list for Asian History and Culture >Sender: H-Net list for Asian History and Culture >From: Frank Conlon >Subject: H-ASIA: More NEH programs suspended; others have deadlines > postponed >To: Multiple recipients of list H-ASIA > > H-ASIA > September 19, 1995 > >More Bad News from National Endowment for the Humanities >***************************************************************************** >From: H-Net Central > >N.E.H ANNOUNCES CHANGES IN APPLICATION DEADLINES > >Due to the uncertain funding level of the National Endowment for >the Humanities at the beginning of the new fiscal year (October), >there is a need to reorganize the agency's application review >process. > >The following list indicates all application deadline changes to >date. For all NEH programs not listed here, previously published >application deadlines apply. > > Old deadline New deadline >Division of Public Programs >Projects in Media Oct. 1, 1995 Jan. 12, 1996 >(planning, scripting and production) March 1, 1996 Jan. 12, 1996 > >Projects in Museums and Historical Orgns. >(planning and implementation) Dec. 1, 1995 Jan. 12, 1996 > >Projects in Libraries and Archives >(planning and implementation) Nov. 1, 1995 Jan. 12, 1996 > >Special Projects Nov. 1, 1995 Jan. 12, 1996 > March 1, 1996 Jan. 12, 1996 > >National Conversation Special Comp. Nov. 24, 1995 NO CHANGE > >Division of Education Programs >Higher Education > No applications will be accepted for the Oct. 1, 1995, deadline. > Applications for national summer institutes only will be accepted > for the Feb. 1, 1996, deadline. > >Elementary and Secondary Education > No applications will be accepted for the Oct. 1, 1995, deadline. > Applications for national summer institutes only will be accepted > for the Feb. 1, 1996, deadline. > >Science and Humanities: Integrating > Undergraduate Education February 1, 1996 (Canceled) > >Division of Research Programs >Archaeology Projects Oct. 1, 1995 (Suspended) > >Conferences Dec. 1, 1995 (Suspended) > >Dissertation Grants Oct. 16, 1995 (Suspended) > >Humanities Studies of Science/Tech. Oct. 1, 1995 (Suspended) > >Publication Subvention Feb. 1, 1996 (Suspended) > >Summer Stipends Oct. 1, 1995 (Suspended) > >Reference Materials (will be moved to Div. of Preservation and >Access Dec. 1, 1995) Nov. 1, 1995 July 1, 1996 > > information contact: info@neh.fed.us >=========================================================================== > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:04:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the reich In-Reply-To: <199509220341.UAA14937@bob.indirect.com> > >On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Jurphy Sowering Borge, Jr. wrote > >> > > >> >> >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> >> >incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured > >> >> >the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is > >> >> >Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes > >> >> >who pester as obsession or a hobby or as fraction of a prayer, > >> >> >towering above us with a lot of bothersome >>>>>>>>>>>>,s > >> >> measured at density 21.5 along with a "d" added to first name > >> >> of DDaniel who saw Adonai and believe me he was no Adonis > >> although reputation tends to weave a little of transfixive > >> which sticks to your clothes and makes you ineluctable > as timpanic surface potable though shrill avatars, managing with just a couple of deflowering judases ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:11:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: renga - the sequel In-Reply-To: <199509220357.UAA15141@bob.indirect.com> hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids weave a pro toy aversion by the martyrs of cogency ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:16:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: be advised: wcw qtd in this renga In-Reply-To: <199509220403.VAA15222@bob.indirect.com> > >on the day of the locust sheila wrote > > > >> > >> > > >> >> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> > > >> >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> > > >> >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> > > >> >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> > > >> >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> > > >> >> The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three > >> > > >> >> Something has changed in the nature of friendship > >> > > >> >> But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line > >> > > >> >> For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum > >> > > >> >> Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs > >> > > >> >> Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm > >> > > >> >> feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset > >> > > >> blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans > >> > > > on metaphors that the folks at the contagious hospital > >> > > thought we might be weaned of early, late, whatever, > > > > >but I am taking the broken glass as a token of my first epiphany > > sassafras is my powerlessness to split scintillas in the mist > of lathering first frost as noon comes on like torqued weed > sucking on the indescribable and taking the ineffable for a walk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:23:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: be advised: wcw qtd in this renga In-Reply-To: <199509220405.VAA15263@bob.indirect.com> On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three > Something has changed in the nature of friendship > But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line > For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum > Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs > Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm > feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset > blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans > on metaphors that the folks at the contagious hospital > thought we might be weaned of early, late, whatever > the contagious wind strikes a chord with nothing ventured > nothing maimed, my parents won't let me play with density > because its quantity is known, and they prefer unknowns > like the time we went to the ruins of sensible ideas and mom > sold ice blue secret back to vendors parked where no shade > was enough for Poco Macho and his shortcircuiting touch ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:30:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: renga - the sequel In-Reply-To: <199509220409.XAA27231@freedom.mtn.org> hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids stuffs morton's insistence on intermittency shaking freely makes neo-grotesque be taken at stock value while admitting ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:41:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix... In-Reply-To: <199509221613.JAA24230@bob.indirect.com> On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Charles Alexander wrote: > > > >Some ink-daubbed wretches wrote: > > > >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books > > > >of Palookaville & the dead heroes of Guadalajara > >empowering scores of liberated mozos intent of Lacanian > >libretti, salted with much, much more than roughage added to taste > >or tremolo, finding the shores awash with alphabet, proclaiming nothing > >nutting nothing a-merrily over my dead bodies in abandon > >where wrote was written, stepping one four nine > passacaglia without the prefab little knobbed things on them completely set on the sea as so much crabbiness ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 14:58:59 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: WCW I've been quite interested in the ongoing WCW discussion. Normally, I would be contra-Foster, but I've just been teaching and re-reading Spring and All. Yes, Ron Silliman's point is, alas, correct: Spring and All would still, today, be a difficult manuscript to get published. And yes, Alan Golding, I believe, is right: for many readers, including many today, Spring and All provides a place of permission. But personally, this time through Williams, my own response is closer to Ed Foster's--I'm not finding much that excites me. Thus, back to points raised by Rod Smith and Ed Foster both--when is a work "used up." For me, some WCW, including much of Spring & All, is beginning to sputter, to run on fumes. Which makes me want to re-read Paterson....? Hank Lazer ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 18:53:25 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Cayley Subject: NEW publication from WellSweep Press A new chapbook from WellSweep. Yang Lian has been published in Talisman and Conjunctions 23. Also he really exists (he's actually staying here with us at the= moment), so don't worry about the Yasusada syndrome. Also, please check out Wellsweep's web site: http://www.inforamp.net/~cayley/wshome.html and a new page of sample poems published in its books: http://www.inforamp.net/~cayley/wsamples.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D WHERE THE SEA STANDS STILL Yang Lian WellSweep Chinese Poets 6+ translated by Brian Holton Yang Lian (born 1955) is one of the best-known of the so-called 'misty'= or 'ambiguist' poets who came to prominence in China during the 1980s.= He has published six collections of poetry and two anthologies of prose= in Chinese. His work has been translated into many European languages, and English versions of his poems have been widely published in magazines. WellSweep brought out a book-length collection of his shorter poems, Non-Person Singular in 1994. 'Where the Sea Stands Still' is the first complete publication of Yang Lian's most recent work. It is the most important= piece he has written since leaving China. Yang Lian's ever-moving 'sea'= stands still in the midst of its restlessness; it is here in the midst of= nowhere; and in the space of the poem, time is swept away. Because of Odysseus,= the sea began its endless ebb and flow; when this sequence was written,= the sea stood still, and became an illusion. Brian Holton teaches Chinese at the Universities of Newcastle and= Durham. He is also the translator of WellSweep's first collection of Yang Lian's poetry, Non-Person Singular. The book reproduces paintings inside and on the cover by Gao Xingjian,= a pioneer of avant-garde literature in China who is best-known internationally as a dramatist. In 1989 Gao moved to Paris as a political exile and= in 1992 he was made Chevalier de l'Ordre des Arts et des Lettres de la France.= His paintings have been exhibited in numerous one-person and group exhibitions, and are held in the collections of many public galleries throughout= Europe. 32 pp, 21 x 13 cm, parallel text. 4 b/w illustrations. GBP=A32.95 (US$6) pbk ISBN 0 948454 25 3 This edition is strictly limited to 200 copies. It is only available= direct from the publisher. 26 additional copies have been printed on special papers and bound= by sewing (rather than stitching). Inquiries welcome. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 18:25:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Scheil Subject: Re: renga - the sequel In-Reply-To: <65E89C50D3A@as.ua.edu> > hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids > stuffs morton's insistence on intermittency shaking freely > leaf stems cubes whirl about as hobbyist pauses to consider lunch as a pearl of sanitized dung in relation to ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 18:32:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Scheil Subject: Re: renga - the sequel In-Reply-To: > hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids > stuffs morton's insistence on intermittency shaking freely > makes neo-grotesque be taken at stock value while admitting Trappists to Morton's for piquant hor d'oeurveal persimmons on toast ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:46:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: renga - the sequel >hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids >made by Chevettes sliding off the I5 south of Tacoma >looking like a born-again, living like a heretic, listening to blues most simpering until the Camels dry away, stained fingertips ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:53:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: renga - the sequel > hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids > stuffs morton's insistence on intermittency shaking freely > leaf stems cubes whirl about as hobbyist pauses to consider truculence beside unlather of the little pacem dished out ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:53:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: you & an army of mixed metaphors and forgotten half-truths... In-Reply-To: <01HVKPNFYJE08X0MTJ@VAXC.STEVENS-TECH.EDU> Well, fortunately, ed, WcW will not be "tossed out" anytime soon. Why this penchant for purgation? As for eric's and Hank's recent posts: geez, do I have to admit WcW is not exactly exciting? To me it's not so much a question of excitment/boredom as it is a matter of knowing why he did (DID) matter. What was it he did that was (WAS) important? No where was this discussed; matter of fact dismissal, while making good posts, is another matter when it comes to accounting for a particular poets relevance. Bahktin may not be cutting edge any longer, but is he any less useful? NO, in case you thought otherwise. Peter Stallybrass's work with B. has been very important and is still very relevant. Two other things: eric: i was thinking about your picasso comment and think that, yes, WcW is something along the same lines (though P. is obviously more exciting and important)a; that is, he has been absorbed, he no longer shocks. Have you listened to The Rite of Spring lately. Those pounding rhythms must have been distressful at one point, but they no longer shock. Quite tame, really, compared to the new Strapping Young Lad CD. I forgot the other thing.... Um.... Well, anyway, what I've found disappointing about this exchange is the lack of discussion about why he is boring. And, really, is that even a word to be using? I mean, I have not learned a thing from such a dismissal. Tell me what's exciting. Or let me tell you . . . . Jeffrey Timmons On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, Edward Foster wrote: > well, jeffrey, i'd have to argue with "dialogue," too; there are poetries that are interesting to read that way, but essentially that's bahktin, who got tossed out quite a while ago. and in any case what's interesting is writing, not "about." > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 16:01:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: be advised: wcw qtd in this renga >> >> > >> >> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> >> > >> >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> >> > >> >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> >> > >> >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> >> > >> >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> >> > >> >> The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three >> >> > >> >> Something has changed in the nature of friendship >> >> > >> >> But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line >> >> > >> >> For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum >> >> > >> >> Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs >> >> > >> >> Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm >> >> > >> >> feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset >> >> > >> blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans >> >> > > on metaphors that the folks at the contagious hospital >> >> > thought we might be weaned of early, late, whatever, >> >> > but I am taking the broken glass as a token of my first epiphany >> sans snow, expansive though, fluent in half tones >> protomagnificent almost protosordid a proxy of ourselves as swellings bunched like little creams in plastic slightly crumpled at the bottom of a purse ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 16:07:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix... In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books of Palookaville & the dead heroes of Guadalajara empowering scores of liberated mozos intent of Lacanian libretti, salted with much, much more than roughage added to taste or tremolo, finding the shores awash with alphabet, proclaiming nothing nutting nothing a-merrily over my dead bodies in abandon where wrote was written, stepping one four nine passacaglia without the prefab little knobbed things on them completely set on the sea as so much crabbiness diverts attention from wars in three voices and the steady rain of hemlock ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 16:08:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: be advised: wcw qtd in this renga In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three Something has changed in the nature of friendship But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans on metaphors that the folks at the contagious hospital thought we might be weaned of early, late, whatever, but I am taking the broken glass as a token of my first epiphany sassafras is my powerlessness to split scintillas in the mist of lathering first frost as noon comes on like torqued weed sucking on the indescribable and taking the ineffable for a walk to Paris via seed cigars and chicory and plantain butts ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 11:37:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Another Renga Request Comments: To: cris cheek Comments: cc: Eryque Gleason , semurphy@indirect.com, bowering@sfu.ca, lolpoet@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu In-Reply-To: <9509222331.aa09618@post.mail.demon.net> Amen to what Cris is saying. On the other hand I am thinking that perhaps no permission is needed in any case because anything posted is in the public domain? EPC should be thanked as courtesy. On the other hand, in the improbable case that some money will be made from publishing any rengas in whole or in part, perhaps the money should be donated to the institution where the list originates, i.e., SUNY at Buffalo, which pays for EPC. On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, cris cheek wrote: > Hi Eryque, > I'm with Jorge's response on this one. And would say publish any version or > branches you have copies of that you enjoy - as 'work in progress'. > But I do feel that the Poetics list should be mentioned, as should the fact > that many other contributions / interventions have affected the branching > process and the choices made. > > love and love > cris > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 19:22:57 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: renga In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three Something has changed in the nature of friendship But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans on metaphors that the folks at the contagious hospital thought we might be weaned of early, late, whatever the contagious wind strikes a chord with nothing ventured maimed, my parents won't let me play with density because its quantity is known, and they prefer unknowns to Belarus stockmen deflowering everything in sight, grim Homolkaesque behaviourists - but quality refrigerators: forensically "I seem to be a verb" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 23:51:48 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: renga - the sequel hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids made by Chevettes sliding off the I5 south of Tacoma monikered bellwether of the pall top crash, whose running gag was meat ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 22:15:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: renga - the sequel hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids stuffs morton's insistence on intermittency shaking freely leaf stems cubes whirl about as hobbyist pauses to consider lunch as a pearl of sanitized dung in relation to mythology's transference of lettuce, permission to unleash ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 22:08:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: renga - the sequel hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids stuffs morton's insistence on intermittency shaking freely makes neo-grotesque be taken at stock value while admitting thereupon frocked simultaneities strangle muscles promiscuously ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 22:17:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: renga - the sequel hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids made by Chevettes sliding off the I5 south of Tacoma looking like a born-again, living like a heretic, listening to blues most simpering until the Camels dry away, stained fingertips on Cynthia's knees, prompting treasure taken forgiveness sighing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 16:14:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the reich >> >On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Jurphy Sowering Borge, Jr. wrote >> >> > >> >> >> >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> >> >> >incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured >> >> >> >the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is >> >> >> >Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes >> >> >> >who pester as obsession or a hobby or as fraction of a prayer, >> >> >> >towering above us with a lot of bothersome >>>>>>>>>>>>,s >> >> >> measured at density 21.5 along with a "d" added to first name >> >> >> of DDaniel who saw Adonai and believe me he was no Adonis >> >> although reputation tends to weave a little of transfixive >> >> which sticks to your clothes and makes you ineluctable >> as timpanic surface potable though shrill > avatars, managing with just a couple of deflowering judases to brick the windows both ways just in time for ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 16:13:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: renga - the sequel > hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids > stuffs morton's insistence on intermittency shaking freely > makes neo-grotesque be taken at stock value while admitting splits of shares like to be hitched to stories ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 22:11:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: renga - the sequel hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids stuffs morton's insistence on intermittency shaking freely leaf stems cubes whirl about as hobbyist pauses to consider truculence beside unlather of the little pacem dished out strings, nothing but straps and laces, potatoes mashed fine ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 19:00:40 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: eric pape Subject: Re: oh really? In-Reply-To: <199509220537.WAA19933@web.azstarnet.com> (Gulp) Okay. Here goes. When the Senorita Died 12: 24 and Chimes Street is all perturbed with heat. It's summer, five days after the Shrimp and Petroleum Festival, yes, and I am looking for a tab with my coffee. I have to see Jackie and Dennis for a late lunch, but at this point, all I am thinking about is where I will find my next hit. At the Lebanese, I have an Abita and cheese fries and buy APR to see what folks are doing in the real world. There's a feature on Merwin and something about the Pacific but I toss it into the street and go to the Varsity because Alice (Quietcar, I think) will be tending bar and she gives out free martinis if you can remember who played the night before. The cool thing is she never knows so I say Orlando and for once she doesn't check with the front desk and shakes up a 'tini while I wait. This is Louisiana, so I head off with drink in hand to Highland, for the latestHaraway, but find it all too langweilig so sit by Godfather's to watch until Dolores comes by because she always has Wired and US News and World Report and on the front page I see here name outlined in red ink, and I shiver and I remember Four Aces in Brownsville trying to piss in a trough with five other fellows while while she whined a song along with the accordian and everyone and I stopped micturating INcidentally, I should say that I am working on my exams now, and at some point in my life will surely discredit everything that I've said on this list so far for the reason that I am very very grouchy.Also, isn't it still true that the sincerest form of flattery is imitation (please say so)? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 22:12:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: renga - the sequel hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids stuffs morton's insistence on intermittency shaking freely makes neo-grotesque be taken at stock value while admitting Trappists to Morton's for piquant hor d'oeurveal persimmons on toast frocking replies tuned to tongue's pleasure, training skin for release ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 10:56:43 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "H. T. KIRBY-SMITH" Organization: University of NC at Greensboro Subject: publications In response to Charles Bernstein's request: My only book publication is U. S. OBSERVATORIES (Van Nostrand Reinhold). This is a book about observatories. It has a number of good pictures in it, taken by observatories, who have very good cameras. The book is out of print and if anyone sees it in the astronomy section of a used book store I wish you would buy it and let me buy it from you since I only have 2-3 copies myself. It tends to get stolen from libraries. Lots of people think they are imitating WCW-- poor Zelda thought she was Pavlova. Tom Kirby-Smith. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 08:54:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: MFA Agents/Dangerous Poets thanks gale, good to hear/see from you, and to some extent, esp w/ students, it happens "naturally" --(like, who else wd i nominate for prizes --my most boring students?, and yes, that works, tho because of my limited credibility --my intellectual orientation is considered eccentric by my shakespearean and woolfian colleagues --my students end up w/ the $500 prizes rather than the $1500 main prizes --it's still something, and they feel supported and believed in, which is the most impt. thing). my ego still gets in there, tho, and that's one of the main casualties of this professional life, i think --in a field where intellectual property is everything, it can hurt to do something for years and not get anywhere, then some shallow hotshot (or worse yet, some square with a lot of local institutional power who suddenly "discovers", say , lyn hejinian) comes in and with one word makes your field legit --but you still don't get any "credit"... well, that's an issue for the daily meditation practice i guess and while it's as "real" or unreal as anything else and thus merits saying, it merits saying only so that one (i) can then move beyond that sphere of concern and be really real, like, do my own thing and invite others to join...i.e. more of same...sorry everyone for airing these petty ego concerns but some of you might just relate...i hope.--md ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 18:03:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: renga - the sequel >> hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids >> stuffs morton's insistence on intermittency shaking freely >> makes neo-grotesque be taken at stock value while admitting > Trappists to Morton's for piquant hor d'oeurveal persimmons on toast becoming to sheer crystal plain pure tulip glasses raised ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 09:30:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix... In-Reply-To: <199509222307.QAA03227@bob.indirect.com> On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books of Palookaville & the dead heroes of Guadalajara empowering scores of liberated mozos intent of Lacanian libretti, salted with much, much more than roughage added to taste or tremolo, finding the shores awash with alphabet, proclaiming nothing nutting nothing a-merrily over my dead bodies in abandon where wrote was written, stepping one four nine passacaglia without the prefab little knobbed things on them completely set on the sea as so much crabbiness diverts attention from wars in three voices and the steady rain of hemlock falling on the Concerns box & a sob distant as adventure capital ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 09:17:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Invasion of the Annoying Chevron In-Reply-To: <199509222301.QAA03134@bob.indirect.com> > >> >> > >> >> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> >> > >> >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> >> > >> >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> >> > >> >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> >> > >> >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> >> > >> >> The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three > >> >> > >> >> Something has changed in the nature of friendship > >> >> > >> >> But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line > >> >> > >> >> For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum > >> >> > >> >> Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs > >> >> > >> >> Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm > >> >> > >> >> feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset > >> >> > >> blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans > >> >> > > on metaphors that the folks at the contagious hospital > >> >> > thought we might be weaned of early, late, whatever, > >> >> > but I am taking the broken glass as a token of my first epiphany > >> sans snow, expansive though, fluent in half tones > >> protomagnificent almost protosordid a proxy of ourselves as swellings > bunched like little creams in plastic slightly crumpled at the bottom of a purse that the Comedy of It gave to The Fewer Embers in 1923 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 21:35:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Scheil Subject: Re: renga - the sequel In-Reply-To: <199509222246.PAA02746@bob.indirect.com> > >hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids > >made by Chevettes sliding off the I5 south of Tacoma > >looking like a born-again, living like a heretic, listening > to blues most simpering until the Camels dry away, stained fingertips in a Flintstone's ziplock--presents for Mama, vermouthing the wheel ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 09:40:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix... In-Reply-To: <199509221626.JAA24525@bob.indirect.com> On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books Incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes of Palookaville & the dead heroes of Guadalajara empowering scores of liberated mozos intent of Lacanian libretti, salted with much, much more than roughage added to taste doughboys & doughgirls, behaving like superfluous enigmas puzzling in contagious ways over the simplest rides to the grotto of our Lady of Corollaries during the Feast of the Enormity with widgets handprinted with obvious mistakes in limited editions shrink-wrapped to keep-out dangerfields and glut shelves of gutted elves' belongings so gravitied as not to quiver when "When Worlds Collide" is shown in both worlds colliding ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 09:36:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: be advised: wcw qtd in this renga In-Reply-To: <199509222308.QAA03258@bob.indirect.com> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three Something has changed in the nature of friendship But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans on metaphors that the folks at the contagious hospital thought we might be weaned of early, late, whatever, but I am taking the broken glass as a token of my first epiphany sassafras is my powerlessness to split scintillas in the mist of lathering first frost as noon comes on like torqued weed sucking on the indescribable and taking the ineffable for a walk to Paris via seed cigars and chicory and plantain butts mixed with automaton condolences nixed by Dr. Reynolds ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 23:40:25 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: Sheila, Cris & Jorge's Excellent Adventure >> >> >> >>> >SEM-CC-JG BRANCH 19/9/95 C adding to J adding to C adding to S >> >> >>in the books were dreams and in the dreams were books.And flew >> >> >>spending the bulk of closure with sentient scoops >> >> >>that fluke picnic shot out of these worlds we spread been-to >> >> >>say that the center cannot hold the nose tackle much longer >> >> >>than a clam can sleeve out of incarceration baldly >> >> >>go where others fear to operate the biggest donors hive >> >> >>& where Mars collides with the small world of "It's a small world" >> >> >>ripe for macroscopes to pump or slice or butterfly away >> >> >>from that ardent bugged heliotrope and pledge allegiance through >> >> >>ostension--we stopped short of the shortstop's stigmata >> >> >>this time pencilled in as tangly wisps instead of memory >> >> >>detonations: but don't forget to dismember the doloroso >> >> >>I left in the rain by mistake whilst on business vocation >> >> >>the night I told you to stop referring to me as Ontology Boy >> >> >and you replied all shrouded in epistemology that it was glue we lacked >> >> "ckab oups frert cdl-fdl!!" with elvis projecting "uhhhh, I'm all stuck >> >>in the epoxy I used to cement my relationship w/ Thou, the Dead Quaker >> who who traipses a paradigm sweat under lights and then fixes > >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>groin>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >> permit holders >>> inters the sneak >>>> impossible "part" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 09:03:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: rebus aegis quotidian anger we keep going back and forth about this poor guy's mane or colored name a la birthday wrapping ribbon all cello-phane ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 09:12:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: renga - the sequel In-Reply-To: <199509222253.PAA02919@bob.indirect.com> hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids stuffs morton's insistence on intermittency shaking freely leaf stems cubes whirl about as hobbyist pauses to consider truculence beside unlather of the little pacem dished out as the set of mediocre results which luckily included itself ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 13:43:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix... In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books Incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes of Palookaville & the dead heroes of Guadalajara empowering scores of liberated mozos intent of Lacanian libretti, salted with much, much more than roughage added to taste doughboys & doughgirls, behaving like superfluous enigmas puzzling in contagious ways over the simplest rides to the grotto of our Lady of Corollaries during the Feast of the Enormity with widgets handprinted with obvious mistakes in limited editions shrink-wrapped to keep-out dangerfields and glut shelves of gutted elves' belongings so gravitied as not to quiver when blood ran before the crest masts unfurled before the ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 09:05:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: renga - the sequel rengalines lead me to that fluttering Word ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 03:40:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: All rengae sound the same After the first 500 examples, or thereabouts, all these rengae begin to take on a terrible sameness, even the new threads. Maybe it has to do with that slightly overbloated line length that seems so invariable. What is it about this form that imposes these limitations? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 09:15:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: renga writing --a proposal rather than start a new renga myself (performance anxiety) i need to amend my earlier statement abt sympathizing w/ renga-deleters. what i' finding, and this is an interesting tho not novel or unpredictable revelation to me about my own mind, technology etc --is this: because i can't "skim" the rengas but have to really read them, they are alternately the most thrilling, life-giving msgs on the list, and the most distracting and daunting. when i'm panicked for time --as i now am, being on aol rather than a gratis univ. system --it takes a commitment of attention i initially resent but (like schlepping to the library to do research) ends up being gratifying in unpredictable ways --i never know what i'll learn, and the rengas alter my consciousness more than, say, my own whining about lack of institutional support for my field, or discussions about the usefulness of wcw. by the way, what does "a single angel is frightening" mean: that more angels are less frightening because angels are not meant to be alone, or that if a single angel is scary, imagine how scary a whole flock wd be?-md ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 23:51:38 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: be advised: wcw qtd in this decade >> > >> > on the day after the equinox Sheila, George and Jorge >were returned to sender in a sealed wagon" >> > "The hell we were!" GB" >> > >> > > >> > > >> >> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> > > > > >> >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> > > > > >> >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> > > > > >> >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> > > > > >> >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> > > > > >> >> The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three >> > > > > >> >> Something has changed in the nature of friendship >> > > > > >> >> But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line >> > > > >> >> For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum >> > > > > >> >> Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs >> > > > > >> >> Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm >> > > > > >> >> feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset >> > > > > >> blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans >> > > > > > on metaphors that the folks at the contagious hospital >> > thought we might be weaned of early, late, whatever, >> but I am taking the broken glass as a token of my first epiphany >> sassafras is my powerlessness to split scintillas in the mist >> the outside corner, showering early while the Pirates > were irate without their pes & sent george bee to the miners a seachange to order as happy as money could meld me a rope ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 00:46:10 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: be advised: wcw qtd in this renga In-Reply-To: <199509222308.QAA03258@bob.indirect.com> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three Something has changed in the nature of friendship But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans on metaphors that the folks at the contagious hospital thought we might be weaned of early, late, whatever, but I am taking the broken glass as a token of my first epiphany sassafras is my powerlessness to split scintillas in the mist of lathering first frost as noon comes on like torqued weed sucking on the indescribable and taking the ineffable for a walk to Paris via seed cigars and chicory and plantain butts a powdery king of aftertaste but all right ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 03:27:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: WCW Ed, a good part of what makes your stance unconvincing is how much it depends on actions that occur without agency (e.g., Bahktin who "got tossed out awhile ago" without saying why or who did such tossing). As someone who was reading him in '72 and felt that the whole fad served only to bring works into print and who was pleased to see the MLA kudzu die back from that arena, I still find real value in his work. And Williams also. There is an assumption in your stance that just because someone's work is situated in a context, say, of the 1930s, that its value remains there. In fact, even when someone undergoes an intense period of adoption, as WCW did (or Olson or Duncan or Creeley more recently), it is arguable whether all that exists within the work ever gets excavated by readers or usefully understood by other practitioners. One can read Wordsworth absolutely for his contemporary (or as they say at Duke, post-contemporary) values. Why not Williams also? What about all this writing? Ron ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 00:39:11 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: renga - the sequel In-Reply-To: hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids weave a pro toy aversion by the martyrs of cogency but not for long. Mog oos a grayup lad n fast aboot it ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 00:44:12 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix... In-Reply-To: <199509222307.QAA03227@bob.indirect.com> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books of Palookaville & the dead heroes of Guadalajara empowering scores of liberated mozos intent of Lacanian libretti, salted with much, much more than roughage added to taste or tremolo, finding the shores awash with alphabet, proclaiming nothing nutting nothing a-merrily dead bodies abandon where wrote was written, stepping one four nine passacaglia without the prefab little knobbed things on them completely set on the sea as so much crabbiness diverts attention from wars in three voices and the steady rain of hemlock in three or four without babies set at nine ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 21:46:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix... The Bell Curl > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books > incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured > the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is > Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes > of Palookaville & the dead heroes of Guadalajara > empowering scores of liberated mozos intent of Lacanian > Bananas and coconut grove's ashes Phoenix rose and o > o, o, the Murdochian rag, ok stop dick stop spot ate puff the mAGIC drag Queen to Pawnshop to pick up an assault ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 16:11:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: NEW publication Maybe not new to everyone, but 1995 vintage: David Miller - STROMATA - from Burning Deck a splendid creation - don't miss it ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 23:40:46 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: Sheila, Chris & Jorge's Excellent Adventure >JG wrote: >>On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: >> >>> >SEM-CC-JG BRANCH 9/18/95 >>> > >>> >in the books were dreams and in the dreams were >>> >books.And flew > >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> (...) >>> >> >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >spending the bulk of closure with sentient scoops >>> >> >> >>> >>> that fluke picnic shot out of these worlds we spread been-to >>> >> >> >>> >> say that the center cannot hold the nose tackle much longer >>> >> >> >>> >than a clam can sleeve out of incarceration baldly >>> >> >> >>> go where others fear to operate the biggest donors hive >>> >> >> >>> & where Mars collides with the small world of "It's a small world" >>> >> >> >ripe for macroscopes to pump or slice or butterfly away >>> >> >> from that ardent bugged heliotrope and pledge allegiance through >>> >> > ostension--we stopped short of the shortstop stigmata >>> >> this time pencilled in as tangly wisps instead of memory >>> > detonations: but don't forget to dismember the doloroso >>> pitchpipe with its squeal subtracted and the dotted-line relationships >>and sing "I Love Time but I love Your Spatial Simulacra Much More" >for the brevity inferred and for the latchkey touch more like a feather >drizzling ribs trained sultry moments gathering to migrate south ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 23:22:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson >Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:39:59 -0400 >From: Bill Luoma >Subject: New ListServe > >Pentium" Pro Processor Builds on Equity in Pentium Brand Bill-- is this news or poetry (I know people are miserably dying for lack of the news there--boring, right?--but really....?) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 00:08:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: renga - oldies but goodies > > > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> The caravan of windows to what they flee > >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > floating, held open, adrift in different directions, she cast off she could move twitching gone the way of Adrift in Post-traumatic Space (2) "309.89 Post-traumatic Stress Disorder A. The person has experienced an event that is outside the range of usual human..." B. (1) Th Mauled tots swim rec etr my mind's eye all urr au askew, asunder. ent mat an ic Death on the playground: d i eve "C'mon, let us play ball!" ntr nt Action speaks. usi is ve ree I absent myself some. rec exp And then further inure. oll eri Faraway Rockaway prison ect enc ion ed Enwrap pain. One way s o in ticket to Siberia. f t at Return naked on nails. he lea eve st one of the following ways: ...numbing of general responsiveness (not present before the trauma) as indicated by at least three of the following:... (6) restricted range of affect, e.g., unable to have loving feelings..." ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 04:07:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: Flossy & WCWs army of ah whatever OK I'm with this: >the "boring" i think has to do with being >somewhere between formerly useful and not quite historical tho hold out for bits of _Imaginations_ -- so, what's so bad abt Bakhtin again? Is Olson in the same space as WCW, do ya think? Remember an interview w/ a Poundian named Carlo Parcelli where the interviewer asked him, really, "What makes Olson so good?" & he replied "Because he's not a poet, he's a historian." Which I still find both interesting & cause for loss of cookies. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 16:13:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: renga - the sequel >hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids >weave a pro toy aversion by the martyrs of cogency who blather anyway with wrinkled tongues ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 23:40:54 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: this break will or will not not branch >Jorge, the Nobel Savage, wrote > >> >> >>>>In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> >> >>>>And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> >> [savage edit] >> >> >>>>demitassed to mean full-bodied wine with alcohol removed >> >> >>>>by trained leeches from under the rotting elastic, a feast >> >> >>>>of swirling eddies with beaucoup of labia & confetti >> >> >>>>starving time's scythe for water, matching colors to go >> >> >>>crecheward into sweet line drawings clothed to world our >> >> >>words for water, falling four blocks away, finally, a gulf >> >> >between perceived and rinsing water, shroud and comforter, >> >> flogging proud wet stones with patchwork flags making tenement hum >> > with "Too late the coloscope" and "Cried the besotted gondry" >> fishing around with like with like and let it get too cold, "Hey, > tell us apart" "Don't be saussure, tracy". "The name is trace, pal" spun on painted heels, then "vanishing, not varnishing!" her smile ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 23:22:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: WCW, agreeing w Alan G (me not WCW) I recall that way back when Douglas Messerli was still teaching, at Temple, he had only one outraged graduate seminar (being of course an otherwise not only brilliant but beloved instructor): in a modern poetry course he spozedly taught /Spring & All/ & /Kora in Hell/, and the students were just irrevocably non-plussed--and Temple wasn't, as it isn't, ahem, Iowa, or I guess in light of recent posts I should say "Iowa." Gen-you-wine OH-pacity. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 04:42:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: MFA Agents/the lake a lilac cube Think what's dangerous is certainly contextual. Are, in the phrase of a friend of mine, the "so-called Nuyoricans" dangerous? Somehow, on MTV, no. But in person some of them, powerful, convincing, useful. The infiltration oddly neither group nor individual-- walking into a workshop situation there seems group resistance to "experimental," but individual, perhaps, acceptance. Though this is also a matter of search for group vocabulary with which to discuss these things, if one imposes the terms it becomes rote & nobody learns anything. So I'm neither comfortable nor uncomfortable teaching, but consider, suppose "we" "win"-- what does *that* mean. This is putting it on the line folks, will the terms change, even a little? Since this seems my night to quote interviews, in the Cage/Retallack thing I published she asked him whether he thought artists could change "the grammar of the way we are together." His response was a long pause & then "we don't know, but we can try." Seems to me we're really talking about trying to change what Weber called "the iron cage or bureaucracy" & we'd oughta be prepared to fail grandiosely &/"or else" succeed, w/ a whimper (not a bang). --Rod. dreadfully sorry, but it's 4:41 a.m. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 23:58:20 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: be advised: wcw qtd in this renga >> >> > >> >> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> >> > >> >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> >> > >> >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> >> > >> >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> >> > >> >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> >> > >> >> The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three >> >> > >> >> Something has changed in the nature of friendship >> >> > >> >> But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line >> >> > >> >> For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum >> >> > >> >> Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs >> >> > >> >> Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm >> >> > >> >> feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset >> >> > >> blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans >> >> > > on metaphors that the folks at the contagious hospital >> >> > thought we might be weaned of early, late, whatever, >> >> > but I am taking the broken glass as a token of my first epiphany >> sans snow, expansive though, fluent in half tones >> protomagnificent almost protosordid a proxy of ourselves as swellings framed a pride of loans heaped onto bonding sloth "Enough of all ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 14:11:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: renga - the sequel >hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids >stuffs morton's insistence on intermittency shaking freely >leaf stems cubes whirl about as hobbyist pauses to consider >lunch as a pearl of sanitized dung in relation to >mythology's transference of lettuce, permission to unleash a rinse as whimsy over the leafed personalities of ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 14:14:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: renga - the sequel >hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids >stuffs morton's insistence on intermittency shaking freely >makes neo-grotesque be taken at stock value while admitting >thereupon frocked simultaneities strangle muscles promiscuously because theorems are delicious basked rather than fortified ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 14:15:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: renga - the sequel >hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids >made by Chevettes sliding off the I5 south of Tacoma >looking like a born-again, living like a heretic, listening >to blues most simpering until the Camels dry away, stained fingertips >on Cynthia's knees, prompting treasure taken forgiveness sighing that what weather blanches likes to crop and crops become our ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 18:13:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Scheil Subject: Re: renga - the sequel In-Reply-To: <199509242111.OAA20597@bob.indirect.com> > >hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids > >stuffs morton's insistence on intermittency shaking freely > >leaf stems cubes whirl about as hobbyist pauses to consider > >lunch as a pearl of sanitized dung in relation to > >mythology's transference of lettuce, permission to unleash > a rinse as whimsy over the leafed personalities of Matador X^Nth, his treacly morbidity glee, his pubic toupee, his ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 11:59:01 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Renga moan I've stopped reading them. Auto-delete wd be handy. Not only line-length, but the "improbabilities" are getting repetitive. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 20:53:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: renga - oldies but goodies oldies but goodies magnificent fun! awarming floater chevrons, india november delta apple, gloria soames! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 20:54:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: be advised: wcw qtd in this renga a bit slow on the apres coup mais nonetheless love ya babe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 11:09:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: Distribution (Sorry if you receive this twice - the Sydney Uni server was down on the weekend and I'm note sure whether this got through) Sorry I'm running late replying to this thread. I am currently setting up a small press distribution network in Sydney which will handle Australian small press stuff in the first instance but we may well be able to take some os stuff after we get up and running. I'll keep list members up to date. (we will also run stores at readings seminars and the like and it may be possible to take one or two copies of o/s magazines to sell on consignment that way - we'll see). There have been a number of attempts to set up distribution networks in Australia over the years. Most have them have fallen down because of the distances involved. You really need to have staff in each capital city and given Australia's small population and massive distances the economics just don't add up. We are trying to overcome this by limiting ourselves to the city and thye bookshops we know the best. We will be also be setting up a virtual bookshop so a whole lot of Australian small press publications should become available shortly via the net. regards mark (Australian Writing On Line) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 15:56:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: renga - the sequel In-Reply-To: <199509242115.OAA20656@bob.indirect.com> > >hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids > >made by Chevettes sliding off the I5 south of Tacoma > >looking like a born-again, living like a heretic, listening > >to blues most simpering until the Camels dry away, stained fingertips > >on Cynthia's knees, prompting treasure taken forgiveness sighing > that what weather blanches likes to crop and crops become our > Anybody-Who-Had-Not-Had-Any idol so we ready the implementator ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 15:53:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: this break will or will not not branch In-Reply-To: <9509222332.aa09790@post.mail.demon.net> Cris "Turn the Other" Cheek, the Noble Metal Dude wrote > > > >> >> >>>>In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> >> >>>>And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> >> [savage edit] > >> >> >>>>demitassed to mean full-bodied wine with alcohol removed > >> >> >>>>by trained leeches from under the rotting elastic, a feast > >> >> >>>>of swirling eddies with beaucoup of labia & confetti > >> >> >>>>starving time's scythe for water, matching colors to go > >> >> >>>crecheward into sweet line drawings clothed to world our > >> >> >>words for water, falling four blocks away, finally, a gulf > >> >> >between perceived and rinsing water, shroud and comforter, > >> >> flogging proud wet stones with patchwork flags making tenement hum > >> > with "Too late the coloscope" and "Cried the besotted gondry" > >> fishing around with like with like and let it get too cold, "Hey, > > tell us apart" "Don't be saussure, tracy". "The name is trace, pal" > spun on painted heels, then "vanishing, not varnishing!" her smile > like a large oblong condolence:"You pervasive you! Just kidding!" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 15:46:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: renga - the sequel In-Reply-To: <199509222313.QAA03359@bob.indirect.com> On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids weave a pro toy aversion by the martyrs of cogency who blather anyway with wrinkled tongues i emptied the elf so that you and the felucca could fight ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 15:43:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Sheila, Chris & Jorge's Excellent Adventure In-Reply-To: <9509222332.aa09728@post.mail.demon.net> On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, cris cheek wrote: > >JG wrote: > >>On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >> > >>> >SEM-CC-JG BRANCH 9/18/95 > >>> > > >>> >in the books were dreams and in the dreams were > >>> >books.And flew > >> >>> >> > >>> >> >> >>> >> (...) > >>> >> >> >>> >> > >>> >> >> >>> >>> >spending the bulk of closure with sentient scoops > >>> >> >> >>> >>> that fluke picnic shot out of these worlds we spread been-to > >>> >> >> >>> >> say that the center cannot hold the nose tackle much longer > >>> >> >> >>> >than a clam can sleeve out of incarceration baldly > >>> >> >> >>> go where others fear to operate the biggest donors hive > >>> >> >> >>> & where Mars collides with the small world of "It's a small world" > >>> >> >> >ripe for macroscopes to pump or slice or butterfly away > >>> >> >> from that ardent bugged heliotrope and pledge allegiance through > >>> >> > ostension--we stopped short of the shortstop stigmata > >>> >> this time pencilled in as tangly wisps instead of memory > >>> > detonations: but don't forget to dismember the doloroso > >>> pitchpipe with its squeal subtracted and the dotted-line relationships > >>and sing "I Love Time but I love Your Spatial Simulacra Much More" > >for the brevity inferred and for the latchkey touch more like a feather > >drizzling ribs trained sultry moments gathering to migrate south > no one so maybe-ed became an ornament before the chastening playoffs ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 15:34:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: renga - the sequel In-Reply-To: <199509230103.SAA05488@bob.indirect.com> hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids stuffs morton's insistence on intermittency shaking freely makes neo-grotesque be taken at stock value while admitting Trappists to Morton's for piquant hor d'oeurveal persimmons on toast becoming to sheer crystal plain pure tulip glasses raised it's not a exploded view vs papier bleau issue ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 15:29:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: renga - the sequel In-Reply-To: <199509222313.QAA03444@bob.indirect.com> hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids stuffs morton's insistence on intermittency shaking freely makes neo-grotesque be taken at stock value while admitting splits of shares like to be hitched to stories about stabat pater doloroso with kidney statuettes ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 15:25:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the reich In-Reply-To: <199509222314.QAA03534@bob.indirect.com> > >> >On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Jurphy Sowering Borge, Jr. wrote > >> >> > > >> >> >> >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> >> >> >incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured > >> >> >> >the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is > >> >> >> >Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes > >> >> >> >who pester as obsession or a hobby or as fraction of a prayer, > >> >> >> >towering above us with a lot of bothersome >>>>>>>>>>>>,s > >> >> >> measured at density 21.5 along with a "d" added to first name > >> >> >> of DDaniel who saw Adonai and believe me he was no Adonis > >> >> although reputation tends to weave a little of transfixive > >> >> which sticks to your clothes and makes you ineluctable > >> as timpanic surface potable though shrill > > avatars, managing with just a couple of deflowering judases > to brick the windows both ways just in time for > the portion of laceration that was olympisized ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 15:22:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: renga - the sequel In-Reply-To: <9509222343.aa11286@post.mail.demon.net> hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids made by Chevettes sliding off the I5 south of Tacoma monikered bellwether of the pall top crash, whose running gag was meat and was edible with pointy head crushed body yellowish ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 15:20:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: renga In-Reply-To: <9509240122.AA134756@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca> On Sat, 23 Sep 1995, Louis Cabri wrote: > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three > Something has changed in the nature of friendship > But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line > For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum > Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs > Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm > feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset > blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans > on metaphors that the folks at the contagious hospital > thought we might be weaned of early, late, whatever > the contagious wind strikes a chord with nothing ventured > maimed, my parents won't let me play with density > because its quantity is known, and they prefer unknowns > to Belarus stockmen deflowering everything in sight, grim > Homolkaesque behaviourists - but quality refrigerators: > forensically "I seem to be a verb" but mereologically i am an anominal clitic ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 11:11:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: News Too In-Reply-To: <199509250403.VAA17725@sparta.SJSU.EDU> Speaking of hot shots -- Dinesh D'Souza has just published a book, _The End of Racism_, in which he asserts that slavery was not a racist institution. Young Mr. D'Souza got a grant five times the size of yours to "research" this book, and has been featured in two successive issues of the Chronicle of Higher Ed. -- He shows that he is not a racist by disagreeing with _The Bell Curve's_ arguments that intelligence is both hereditary and racial, then proceeds to argue that black Americans just happen to belong to a culture whose unwise life choices leads to them doing less well on intelligence tests. Back in the forties, C.L.R. James wrote that "It is instructive to read the old monographs, articles, volumes, disputes on Negro intelligence, tests, the shape of the head, the weight of the brain, etc. Today all that is dead." well, you can't be right all the time -- but now that racism is at its "end" I suppose we don't need to worry about such things anymore -- As another former D.C. resident used to say: "Makes me wanna holler, throw up _both_ my hands!" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 14:11:03 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gale Nelson Subject: Re: French Poetry Festival in October In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 11 Sep 1995 12:24:39 EDT from Gwyn, (Sorry to everyone else as this should be directed) -- does the AWP have back-issues of the Chronicle going back to origins? Christina Milletti, a graduate student here at Brown, is researching the Chronicle, but cannot get her hands on the early issues. Her electronic address is Christina_Milletti@brown.edu. Many thanks, and apologies to everyone else. Cheers, Gale Nelson ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 11:02:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: The News In-Reply-To: <199509250403.VAA17725@sparta.SJSU.EDU> Thousnads of people died today for want of what could be found in poetry in what authorities are describing as the most tragic aesthetic disaster of the century. Exact figures are not yet available, but New Jersey disaster relief officials describe their region as particularly hard hit. One survivor interviewed at the Joyce Kilmer rest stop reported that she narrowly averted the fate that suddenly befell all those around her because she happened to glance at a scrap of verse someone had written on a wall just as nearly all the other passengers in her van collapsed from ennui. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 09:50:02 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: Renga moan Somebody give the Rengaists a chat line of their own and/or an electronic magazine. Is "Poetics" the same thing as "Poetry"? I don't mean to be restrictive, but, as the joke goes about the husband (no sexism intended) who petitions the judge for a divorce from his wife of fifty years, and the judge asks, why, after all this time could you possibly want a divorce, the husband replies, "Enough is enough already!" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 09:38:52 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: All rengae sound the same Hey Ron! You mean to say that you have actually READ the last five hundred rengae? When I see a renga, I reach for that good ol' delete key. Burt ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 08:37:30 -40962758 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Rosenberg Subject: Is _Poetics Journal_ Dead? The subject pretty much says it all. I have a piece that is supposedly due out in the next issue of _Poetics Journal_, but it's been in this state for *years* & I've been assuming the magazine simply died. Does anyone know if it is "officially" dead? -- Jim Rosenberg http://www.well.com/user/jer/ CIS: 71515,124 WELL: jer Internet: jr@amanue.pgh.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 09:05:16 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "W. Northcutt" Subject: Royal Albert Hall Do-wingy I may be able to spring a trip to the poetry wing-ding at the Albert Hall. Would yer be so kind as to send me information/or list it in the group on how to get seats, and the date, time, etc... William Northcutt william.northcutt@uni-bayreuth.de ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 21:56:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: renga - the sequel In-Reply-To: <199509242115.OAA20656@bob.indirect.com> from "Sheila E. Murphy" at Sep 24, 95 02:15:35 pm hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids made by Chevettes sliding off the I5 south of Tacoma looking like a born-again, living like a heretic, listening to blues most simpering until the Camels dry away, stained fingertips on Cynthia's knees, prompting treasure taken forgiveness sighing that what weather blanches likes to crop and crops become our sinecures till old age beckons with a tower of '45s ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 20:12:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: this break will or will not not branch >>Jorge, the Nobel Savage, wrote >> >>> >> >>>>In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >>> >> >>>>And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >>> >> [savage edit] >>> >> >>>>demitassed to mean full-bodied wine with alcohol removed >>> >> >>>>by trained leeches from under the rotting elastic, a feast >>> >> >>>>of swirling eddies with beaucoup of labia & confetti >>> >> >>>>starving time's scythe for water, matching colors to go >>> >> >>>crecheward into sweet line drawings clothed to world our >>> >> >>words for water, falling four blocks away, finally, a gulf >>> >> >between perceived and rinsing water, shroud and comforter, >>> >> flogging proud wet stones with patchwork flags making tenement hum >>> > with "Too late the coloscope" and "Cried the besotted gondry" >>> fishing around with like with like and let it get too cold, "Hey, >> tell us apart" "Don't be saussure, tracy". "The name is trace, pal" >spun on painted heels, then "vanishing, not varnishing!" her smile impossibly relaxed when thinking about pain beside the capability of boredom ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 09:24:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: Re: New ListServe >Pentium" Pro Processor Builds on Equity in Pentium Brand > On Sept 19,1995 -- Intel Corporation announced that "Pentium" Pro > processor" is the name for its next-generation microprocessor, > previously code-named P6. The 5.5 million transistor device will > be introduced in the fourth quarter of this calendar year, and will > be targeted at workstation and high-end desktop systems, as well as > cost-effective servers. The Pentium Pro processor will deliver the > highest level of performance on 32-bit software for the Intel > architecture............ But can it add up?????? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 19:11:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Naming in America Tenney, to Billy Luoma's post, >>Pentium" Pro Processor Builds on Equity in Pentium Brand > you commented >is this news or poetry (I know people are miserably dying for lack of the news there--boring, right?--but really....?) > I took this as a post on naming in society, circa 1995, and found it absolutely compelling. The Pentium Pro, which will be a household name in about 3 years, is what we once would have called a "686" had the copyright laws not failed to protect Intel's claim to ownership of the "xx86" convention for computer chips. Note that Intel, which invoked the figure 5 in its Pentium, does not continue the stepping process with this next generation chip. That is an attempt to shake off AMD and the other clone chip manufacturers and parallels, at least at a distance, Microsoft's leaping changes in its Microsoft Word for Windows, which went from 2.0 to 6.0 without intermediate steps (which existed, however, in DOS) and from Windows 4.0 (nee "Chicago") to Windows 95 (a name that's going to get OLD fast). While they're not as aggressively silly and Americo-centric as the internet features named after Archie comix characters, it's worth noting that the naming styles of the computer industry have had (and are having, as we speak (if this be speech)) differs dramatically from the nature of such conventions earlier in the century. I forget who first noted that discourses that are insecure about their knowledge tend to be pompous in their terminologies, viz. the use of Latin to characterize in English what Freud simply called the I, the it and the superI. Or structuralism's love of acronyms (think of Althusser and all that type wasted on ISA, RSA etc.). I already feel "fond" of how Pentium Pro suggests that the Pentium chip itself is somehow amateurish (up until 6 months ago, 95 percent of all Pentium systems were being sold to home users--the corporate ramp-up is very slow, but the home buyer wants the full suite of bells and whistles NOW). Sincerely yours Ron (486DX2) Silliman rsillima@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 17:35:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: Re: renga - the sequel >hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids >weave a pro toy aversion by the martyrs of cogency who blather anyway with wrinkled tongues "I dig a pygmy, by Charles Autry and the Deaf-Aids," ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 17:36:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: Re: renga - the sequel >hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids >stuffs morton's insistence on intermittency shaking freely >makes neo-grotesque be taken at stock value while admitting >thereupon frocked simultaneities strangle muscles promiscuously because theorems are delicious basked rather than fortified nature kids, I / they don't have no function ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 17:47:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: disadvised quotation from ford madox ford In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three Something has changed in the nature of friendship But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans on metaphors that the folks at the contagious hospital thought we might be weaned of early, late, whatever, but I am taking the broken glass as a token of my first epiphany sassafras is my powerlessness to split scintillas in the mist of lathering first frost as noon comes on like torqued weed sucking on the indescribable and taking the ineffable for a walk to Paris via seed cigars and chicory and plantain butts mixed with automaton condolences nixed by Dr. Reynolds "God damn _you_, Mr. Henley. Hasten the chinchilla!" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 18:01:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: Re: All rengae sound the same Last day at old aol which seems to send me a clump of messages in the morning (or is it the buffalo doing that) so if people (people) have sent messages of greater cogency on this, sorry, I spoke (wrote?) partly deaf-- but the binding rules are pretty clear, a line has to be so long, and so opaque (I mean interruptive, I suspect a renga (have you seen the renga on the web? I think it's listed through Yahoo--not this renga, one re: Hiroshima..) I suspect a renga of lines half the length might invoke fewer ghosts of blank verse plural of renga is rengae? I guess so Jordan Davis (from now on at jdavis@panix.com) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 18:16:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: All rengae sound the same In-Reply-To: <00996EB3.305CC4F2.1@admin.njit.edu> It's interesting, finally, to think of poetry as viral; I tend to do the same. Surely here it's without ceremony, driving out other writing as well. Poetry as substance, something to think about. Alan On Mon, 25 Sep 1995, Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT wrote: > Hey Ron! > > You mean to say that you have actually READ the last five hundred rengae? > When I see a renga, I reach for that good ol' delete key. > > Burt > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 15:37:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: New Form Re:renga oldies but goodies On Sep 24 Maria Damon wrote: >oldies but goodies magnificent fun! awarming floater chevrons, india >november delta apple, gloria soames! Soup's on. The line Wavers bid adieux as we drift up the styxx and stones never give an even ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 16:22:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Another Renga Request Jorge - While few people (if any) go to the trouble to register copyright for anything they post to newsgroups, mail lists, etc., everyone technically "owns" the texts they write, regardless of the context in which they were published. You may chose to (or not to) register your copyright with the appropriate governmental agency, or you can assign it to EPC or whoever you wish if you so choose, but the copyright for your words is yours unless you take some kind of action. Online text (or visuals or sound, or whatever) is not (yet) in the public domain, despite the fact that it is often treated as if it is. Which is not to deny the truth & utility of citing the situation and location of the original "renga." That said, add my name to the list of folks who zap rengas on sight. Bests Herb Jorge wrote: >Amen to what Cris is saying. >On the other hand I am thinking that perhaps no permission is needed in >any case because anything posted is in the public domain? EPC should be >thanked as courtesy. On the other hand, in the improbable case that some >money will be made from publishing any rengas in whole or in part, >perhaps the money should be donated to the institution where the list >originates, i.e., SUNY at Buffalo, which pays for EPC. > > On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, cris cheek wrote: > Hi Eryque, > I'm with Jorge's response on this one. And would say publish any version or > branches you have copies of that you enjoy - as 'work in progress'. > But I do feel that the Poetics list should be mentioned, as should the fact > that many other contributions / interventions have affected the branching > process and the choices made. > > love and love > cris > > > Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 16:48:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: renga - the sequel(b) In-Reply-To: <950925173619_108563479@emout06.mail.aol.com> from "Jordan Davis." at Sep 25, 95 05:36:19 pm hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids stuffs morton's insistence on intermittency shaking freely makes neo-grotesque be taken at stock value while admitting thereupon frocked simultaneities strangle muscles promiscuously because theorems are delicious basked rather than fortified nature kids, I / they don't have no function no pause button, no inclination to re wind, just at 12:12 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 16:54:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: renga - the sequel(c) In-Reply-To: from "Jorge Guitart" at Sep 25, 95 03:29:04 pm hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids stuffs morton's insistence on intermittency shaking freely makes neo-grotesque be taken at stock value while admitting splits of shares like to be hitched to stories about stabat pater doloroso with kidney statuettes along streets in San Luis Obispo back trails near Olympia, ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 20:00:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: renga - the sequel(c) In-Reply-To: <199509252354.XAA09017@fraser.sfu.ca> stop hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids stop stuffs morton's insistence on intermittency shaking freely stop makes neo-grotesque be taken at stock value while admitting stop splits of shares like to be hitched to storie stop about stabat pater doloroso with kidney statuettes and stop at the streets of bakersfield and stop in the valley of death for you have forsaken me and stop in needles california and stop ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 17:04:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: renga - the sequel(d) In-Reply-To: <199509242111.OAA20597@bob.indirect.com> from "Sheila E. Murphy" at Sep 24, 95 02:11:31 pm > > >hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids > >stuffs morton's insistence on intermittency shaking freely > >leaf stems cubes whirl about as hobbyist pauses to consider > >lunch as a pearl of sanitized dung in relation to > >mythology's transference of lettuce, permission to unleash > a rinse as whimsy over the leafed personalities de connivence l'ampleur des images tout ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 17:37:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: renga In-Reply-To: <9509240122.AA134756@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca> from "Louis Cabri" at Sep 23, 95 07:22:57 pm In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three Something has changed in the nature of friendship But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans on metaphors that the folks at the contagious hospital thought we might be weaned of early, late, whatever the contagious wind strikes a chord with nothing ventured maimed, my parents won't let me play with density> because its quantity is known, and they prefer unknowns to Belarus stockmen deflowering everything in sight, grim Homolkaesque behaviourists - but quality refrigerators: forensically "I seem to be a verb" or a Serb, an herb ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 17:51:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: this break will or will not not branch In-Reply-To: <9509222332.aa09790@post.mail.demon.net> from "cris cheek" at Sep 22, 95 11:40:54 pm > > >Jorge, the Nobel Savage, wrote > --The hell he is!--GB > >> >> >>>>In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> >> >>>>And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> >> [savage edit] > >> >> >>>>demitassed to mean full-bodied wine with alcohol removed > >> >> >>>>by trained leeches from under the rotting elastic, a feast > >> >> >>>>of swirling eddies with beaucoup of labia & confetti > >> >> >>>>starving time's scythe for water, matching colors to go > >> >> >>>crecheward into sweet line drawings clothed to world our > >> >> >>words for water, falling four blocks away, finally, a gulf > >> >> >between perceived and rinsing water, shroud and comforter, > >> >> flogging proud wet stones with patchwork flags making tenement hum > >> > with "Too late the coloscope" and "Cried the besotted gondry" > >> fishing around with like with like and let it get too cold, "Hey, > > tell us apart" "Don't be saussure, tracy". "The name is trace, pal" > spun on painted heels, then "vanishing, not varnishing!" her smile > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 18:04:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Minna Street In-Reply-To: <199509221828.LAA22492@lanfill.lanminds.com> from "Kit Robinson" at Sep 22, 95 10:52:49 am Kit Robinson = Brisk Notion (now, there's a NICE one!) Ia anagram OuLiPoian? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 18:11:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Cecil In-Reply-To: from "Herb Levy" at Sep 22, 95 09:21:32 am Dora Fitzgerald remembers with fondness dancing with Cecil. Oh, he's coming to Seattle just when I'm going to Denmark. Phh. Lately I been reading _Jazziz_ but someone always nabs the free CD before I get it. Rumours here that carla Bley and Gary Peacock are coming to town No, is it gary Peacock? Of course not, it's Steve Swallow, I think? Anyway, if they do a trio, who is the drummer? Have I been sniffing too much pond-fish food? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 21:12:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: renga - the sequel In-Reply-To: <199509250456.EAA16318@fraser.sfu.ca> > hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids > made by Chevettes sliding off the I5 south of Tacoma > looking like a born-again, living like a heretic, listening > to blues most simpering until the Camels dry away, stained fingertips > on Cynthia's knees, prompting treasure taken forgiveness sighing > that what weather blanches likes to crop and crops become our > sinecures till old age beckons with a tower of '45s > "old age beckons" "a born-again" "poured in" "camels" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 21:13:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: renga - the sequel(c) In-Reply-To: <199509252354.XAA09017@fraser.sfu.ca> > hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids > stuffs morton's insistence on intermittency shaking freely > makes neo-grotesque be taken at stock value while admitting > splits of shares like to be hitched to stories > about stabat pater doloroso with kidney statuettes > along streets in San Luis Obispo > back trails near Olympia, > and she is dying piecemeal of a sort of emotional aenemia ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 18:19:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix... In-Reply-To: <199509220455.VAA09823@well.com> from "Thomas Bell" at Sep 21, 95 09:55:29 pm > > >Some fans of Dick Assman wrote > > The Hell we did! --GB and RS > >> >> >In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books > >> >> >incorporating the end of timewarps and troves treasured > >> >> >the mercator projection of horniness and thou; for thou is > >> >> >Wow! What a catch! Yowza! Incorporating the dead heroes > >> >> >of Palookaville & the dead heroes of Guadalajara > >> >> >empowering scores of liberated mozos intent of Lacanian > >> >> libretti, salted with much, much more than roughage added to taste > >> >> doughboys & doughgirls, behaving like superfluous enigmas > >> puzzling in contagious ways over the simplest rides to > >> the grotto of our Lady of Corollaries during the Feast of the Enormity > >with widgets handprinted with obvious mistakes in limited editions > shrink-wrapped to keep-out dangerfields and glut shelves of > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 21:10:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: New Form Re:renga oldies but goodies In-Reply-To: <199509252237.PAA14243@well.com> oldies but goodies magnificent fun! awarming floater chevrons, india november delta apple, gloria soames! Soup's on. The line Wavers the circle sway oh conduit oh my limitless combinatorial ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 18:21:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: be advised: wcw qtd in this renga In-Reply-To: <199509220337.UAA14866@bob.indirect.com> from "Sheila E. Murphy" at Sep 21, 95 08:37:05 pm > "The Hell I am! --WCW > > > >> > >> >> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> > >> >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> > >> >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> > >> >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> > >> >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> > >> >> The rook to the knight here by King's Bishop Three > >> > >> >> Something has changed in the nature of friendship > >> > >> >> But wouldn't you know it, Mrs. Mullett next in line > >> > >> >> For food stamps, quints racing about the linoleum > >> > >> >> Everything leans on the verb, falling, sighs > >> > >> >> Twelve at least, one loves only firm, and firm > >> > >> >> feels good to her it feels real good, & the corset > >> > >> blanches from so many passwords being lifted like expected bans > >> > > on metaphors that the folks at the contagious hospital > >> > thought we might be weaned of early, late, whatever, > >> > but I am taking the broken glass as a token of my first epiphany > sans snow, expansive though, fluent in half tones > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 18:35:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: you & an army of mixed metaphors and forgotten half-truths... >On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Steve Carll wrote: > >> This is probably the concomitant danger of the attempt to poetize trivia, to >> champion "simple everyday speech." Certainly when WCW's effort fails, the >> trivia stays trivial and the poetry joins it. And then Jeffrey Timmons responded: >I'm not sure I can agree that WcW fails. In fact, as my posts have >suggested, he is important because he succeeded so well at turning poetry >to the everyday. If the everyday is trivial, well, then I too wish we >could live in the poems we all dream. The everyday is not trivial and is >worthy of poetry. now Steve in turn says, No, no, I didn't mean to say that Williams' whole project is a failure. I meant at those individual moments or poems where the actual work doesn't quite measure up to the project. I wouldn't say all his poems were successful (by whatever criteria), just as I wouldn't say they all fail (how wishy-washy of me!) But I would amend your last statement: the everyday is not *inherently* trivial. Some of us (people) make and experience it that way all the time, and maybe all of us experience it that way much of the time. That's what makes the striking things so striking: the contrast. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 18:35:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: you & an army of mixed metaphors and forgotten half-truths... Jeffrey Timmons posits: > doesn't >your statement assume that you can purge the "tradition" of WcW's >presence? That we don't need him? Sure, there were alternatives to him, >differently phrased positions, certainly, but you are arguing against >history here. Rimbaud and Keats and WcW made different versions of >poetics available. Just as you must deal with Whitman, you must deal >with WcW's influence (though admitedly on a whole different scale). It's >not a question of substituting different versions of poetics for another >(though this raises an interesting question of just that possibility), >but, rather, of attending to the polyphony of different voices in >dialogue with each other. Good point. The influence isn't going to go away, for awhile anyway. It's just a question of how loudly his voice sounds in our ears compared to all the other voices. Ed, maybe you're just sick of the New Jersey accent? Steve ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 21:44:56 -0400 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: bromige www exhibit folks here might be interested in a Web exhibit of some of Bromige's poems, accompanied by paintings, at: http://www.sonoma.edu/Library/Exhibits/Bromige apologies if this was mentioned while i was offline, onvacation... lbd ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 22:26:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Renga moan In-Reply-To: <00996EB4.BF90A962.107@admin.njit.edu> Why don't you start on a real Poetics topic that would be so engrossing that even the rengans would stop what they are doing and come listen in awed silence? Things that probably count less as poetics than poetry making: list of bedside readings announcements about readings bibliographical info commercial info (book x available from press y) anecdotes about bookstores editorials about bookstores comments about the political scene jokes (in prose) anagrams opinions about whether wcwilliams is boring or not jg On Mon, 25 Sep 1995, Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT wrote: > Somebody give the Rengaists a chat line of their own and/or an electronic > magazine. Is "Poetics" the same thing as "Poetry"? I don't mean to be > restrictive, but, as the joke goes about the husband (no sexism intended) who > petitions the judge for a divorce from his wife of fifty years, and the > judge asks, why, after all this time could you possibly want a divorce, the > husband replies, "Enough is enough already!" > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 22:30:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: All rengae sound the same In-Reply-To: <00996EB3.305CC4F2.1@admin.njit.edu> this message, and the one it replies to, do they count as poetics or not? Burt, if you can delete, what is the problem? Hey , come and play with us. it's all right. On Mon, 25 Sep 1995, Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT wrote: > Hey Ron! > > You mean to say that you have actually READ the last five hundred rengae? > When I see a renga, I reach for that good ol' delete key. > > Burt > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 22:35:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: crow moan In-Reply-To: in the mountains, last i'm in the mountains. it's dark. i can't see anything. i decide to go north. there's reason to go somewhere, and there is no reason to go anywhere in particular. north, i say. you can't go that way, it says. it might say there is a mine there or a cave there but i can't feel it. it's large whatever it is. i can't see the ceiling. look ceiling. you see nothing special. there may be a rustling there but i can't hear it. i decide i'm outside. west, i say. you come to the mountains. west, i say. you come to the mountains. west, i say. you come to the mountains and there is a dead bird, shunted from another space, and it is black and glistening. the center of its body shimmers. look center. you come to the mountains. enter center. you come through the mountains. you may be in the mountains. you hear the sound of children dreaming. the children are dreaming disturbing dreams. enter dreams. you enter the dreams of the children. there is the sound of wings. listen. you hear nothing. listen. you hear nothing. listen west. you hear the sound of wings. _________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 22:36:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: this break will or will not not branch In-Reply-To: <199509250312.UAA26227@bob.indirect.com> Sheila, the empress of rice dream, wrote > >> > >>> >> >>>>In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >>> >> >>>>And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >>> >> [savage edit] > >>> >> >>>>demitassed to mean full-bodied wine with alcohol removed > >>> >> >>>>by trained leeches from under the rotting elastic, a feast > >>> >> >>>>of swirling eddies with beaucoup of labia & confetti > >>> >> >>>>starving time's scythe for water, matching colors to go > >>> >> >>>crecheward into sweet line drawings clothed to world our > >>> >> >>words for water, falling four blocks away, finally, a gulf > >>> >> >between perceived and rinsing water, shroud and comforter, > >>> >> flogging proud wet stones with patchwork flags making tenement hum > >>> > with "Too late the coloscope" and "Cried the besotted gondry" > >>> fishing around with like with like and let it get too cold, "Hey, > >> tell us apart" "Don't be saussure, tracy". "The name is trace, pal" > >spun on painted heels, then "vanishing, not varnishing!" her smile > impossibly relaxed when thinking about pain beside the capability of boredom > by the volcano that was sacred on the basis of size not merit ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 22:43:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: renga - the sequel In-Reply-To: <950925173541_108562896@emout05.mail.aol.com> On Mon, 25 Sep 1995, Jordan Davis. wrote: > >hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids > >weave a pro toy aversion by the martyrs of cogency > who blather anyway with wrinkled tongues > "I dig a pygmy, by Charles Autry and the Deaf-Aids," > this is premature but the character of our contents is dents ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 22:46:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: New Form Re:renga oldies but goodies In-Reply-To: <199509252237.PAA14243@well.com> On Mon, 25 Sep 1995, Thomas Bell wrote: > On Sep 24 Maria Damon wrote: > > >oldies but goodies magnificent fun! awarming floater chevrons, india > >november delta apple, gloria soames! > Soup's on. The line Wavers > bid adieux as we drift up the styxx and stones never give an even trek to vous finirez la maison de M. Usher, Madame Biere ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 22:49:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Another Renga Request In-Reply-To: Herb, many thanks for the info about zapping rengas: you are missing poetic history in the making. On Mon, 25 Sep 1995, Herb Levy wrote: > Jorge - > > While few people (if any) go to the trouble to register copyright for > anything they post to newsgroups, mail lists, etc., everyone technically > "owns" the texts they write, regardless of the context in which they were > published. You may chose to (or not to) register your copyright with the > appropriate governmental agency, or you can assign it to EPC or whoever you > wish if you so choose, but the copyright for your words is yours unless you > take some kind of action. > > Online text (or visuals or sound, or whatever) is not (yet) in the public > domain, despite the fact that it is often treated as if it is. > > Which is not to deny the truth & utility of citing the situation and > location of the original "renga." > > That said, add my name to the list of folks who zap rengas on sight. > > Bests > > Herb > > > Jorge wrote: > > >Amen to what Cris is saying. > >On the other hand I am thinking that perhaps no permission is needed in > >any case because anything posted is in the public domain? EPC should be > >thanked as courtesy. On the other hand, in the improbable case that some > >money will be made from publishing any rengas in whole or in part, > >perhaps the money should be donated to the institution where the list > >originates, i.e., SUNY at Buffalo, which pays for EPC. > > > > > > On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, cris cheek wrote: > > > Hi Eryque, > > I'm with Jorge's response on this one. And would say publish any version or > > branches you have copies of that you enjoy - as 'work in progress'. > > But I do feel that the Poetics list should be mentioned, as should the fact > > that many other contributions / interventions have affected the branching > > process and the choices made. > > > > love and love > > cris > > > > > > > > > Herb Levy > herb@eskimo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 22:34:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: Renga moan In-Reply-To: Tell it like it is Jorge but don't forget the old "is there really a David Ayre" kumquat preservers ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 13:11:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: zap rengas zap rengas this could be a dance, a political movement, or the name of a new poetry magazine. mark ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 22:18:07 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: "is my bubble showing?" The collaborative poem dulls and repeats when it lacks context. I'd say context is provided, and collective attentiveness created by the prose discussion. When the prose flags, the poetry becomes a-contextual somehow, performing eventual reifying services of the medium itself. In this medium the critical specifity that social contexts provide is made homogeneous and is virtually erased - markers a/effecting context, for instance just the fact of a post from New Zealand, or a post of Sept. 15th at 3:00 a.m. on a rented computer, etc., all but their names are erased from the emailed _message_ (in Jackobson's sense) itself, unlike, obviously, a letter (e.g. a type of paper, ink, envelope, etc., in short, of a specific letter, from NZ). An established poet whose name is a currency in many media/genres and an unknown name floating solely in the listserv perform as peers, in a way, to a context-in-the-making (if there will be any at all). The most hardy and only context of the medium readily seems to be purely the informational one of distributing news economically. Good morning Virilio. Beyond that, what sort of informational poetics can arise? There needn't be anything more, of course. But if there is a desire for there to be something more, as perhaps the collaborative poem is hopefully a signal of (shurely not the opposite, that is, narcissistic emblems of a socioeconomically stable/wealthy livelihood??)... - then it would seem, tautologically, that social context will arise only through the information contributed, and that this would take form in the prose discussion (= the world). One available contextual tension the medium can create for "itself" and its agents beyond the role of information-distribution seems to be the dynamic between the poetry and the prose. When the prose dimishes, so too the poetry's affectivenes. I'm suggesting that the collaborative poem diminishes in appeal when a) the fetishistic aspect of the medium itself is allowed to dominate, going surreally out of control in the form of sheer quantity of postings by single and few contributors to the poem, and when b) there is a dwindling of prose dialogue - the only means of supplying contexts of address for the collaborative poem due to the character of the medium itself. So I think that the dismissal of the poetry is misplaced, or at best only half the story. Good night. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 23:31:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: bravo eric pape neat that you took the bait, or bit the bullet, or the hair of the dog or whatever. thanks! any more takers (in the FOH look-alike contest that is....)? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 23:31:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson >Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 11:02:02 -0700 >From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" >Subject: Re: The News > >Thousnads of people died today for want of what could be found in poetry >in what authorities are describing as the most tragic aesthetic disaster >of the century. Exact figures are not yet available, but New Jersey >disaster relief officials describe their region as particularly hard >hit. One survivor interviewed at the Joyce Kilmer rest stop reported >that she narrowly averted the fate that suddenly befell all those around >her because she happened to glance at a scrap of verse someone had >written on a wall just as nearly all the other passengers in her van >collapsed from ennui. besides, I wanted you here on the ward where I am the doctor ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 23:31:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: yep >Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 19:11:09 -0700 >From: Ron Silliman >Subject: Naming in America > >Tenney, to Billy Luoma's post, >>>Pentium" Pro Processor Builds on Equity in Pentium Brand >> >you commented >>is this news or poetry (I know people are miserably dying for lack of >the news there--boring, right?--but really....?) >> >I took this as a post on naming in society, circa 1995, and found it >absolutely compelling. The Pentium Pro, which will be a household name >in about 3 years, is what we once would have called a "686" had the >copyright laws not failed to protect Intel's claim to ownership of the >"xx86" convention for computer chips.... (& etc) Ron: thanks for the subtle (within the veil) excursus. So it WAS poetry! I guess what I had in mind was a long poem Charles B read here in Tucson maybe 4-5 years ago now, which started with a long computer-blurb passage--which was compelling just because attention divided (mine did that is) between let's say materialized language or discourse AND, otoh, a kind of techie-groupie interest in whatever software was being described. So that: what Bill posted is nice, and IS poetry (rather than "rhetoric" [as] if that distinction still holds) because it's a little hard to tell whether one isn't spozed to (just?) share the enthusiasm over the new sleek model. Maybe "pro" just means the floating decimal works? I sit and look out hunkering on 386sx20 haunch dreaming of software not hardware.... it's renga, but jeez, what the hell does it mean? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 08:57:51 BST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "I.LIGHTMAN" Subject: Donald Davie 1922-1995 I'm taking time out from unexpectedly heavy grieving to note the loss of a great British poet, Donald Davie. He and I corresponded and met and, like at least some of the obituary writers on him in recent days, fell out; I wish now, like some of them I suspect, that I had sorted this out, but there always seemed more time to come. I only found out that he'd died when I moved into a new flat and his face was peering out of the obituary page of a newspaper in the bin in the empty room. He was always used as a whipping boy, an establishment figure to rebel against, and rarely thanked for his critical work recommending not just British poets but British poetry - as a poetry that should be international and should make serious work with language, and let language work on the poet. He was attacked jealously by many who wanted his position of eminence (he could always get an article in the TLS much better than any others there) but who would never do the labour, of writing well at length and dealing with institutions, that Davie did to *achieve* this eminence. It was always assumed that this eminence was somehow given to him, as privilege, and always assumed that he reacted out of fear and stupidity to certain areas of the avant-garde that he didn't favour as much as he favoured Pound. For me, however, his *criticisms* based on *reading* (rather than *assent*) of the British avant-garde stick. See Barry and Hampson eds. _The Scope of The Possible_, Manchester University Press, 1994, for a fine example of such Davie-bashing. If his criticism was begrudged, his poetry was ignored; yet, its emphasis on language, its sometimes entirely abstract pleasure with difficult syntax and vocabulary, and its constant self-questioning and interest in ideas and epistemology, certainly helped me, as a schoolboy knowing only Philip Larkin, to bridge to Pound and, indeed, the Language Writers - to whom he is much closer in energy and labour and *vanguardism* (ie the desire to bring the future in, from the margin, not stay in the margin) than any other post-war British poet. If I were to compare him to a painter, I would say no other had such a fine grasp of one aspect of her or his (colour/pigment/mixing/framing/brushwork) art - for none has the skill below with vocabulary, with verbs, with a form that is both syntactically spacious and *not* spare and stripped-down in vocabulary; he is somewhere between Creeley/Neidecker and Yeats, and that amazes me as a feat: OX-BOW The time is at an end. The river swirled Into an ox-box bend, but now It shudders and re-unites: Adversary! Friend! Adverse currents drove This pair apart. A twin tormented throe embraced, Enisled between them, one Quadrant of earth, one grove. Now for each other they yearn Across the eyot That the particular flow of each Carved out, determined. Now, Now to each other they turn. And it is past belief That once they forked; Or that, upstream and bypassed, trees Mirrored in mid-reach still Break into annual leaf. DONALD DAVIE ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 02:33:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Is _Poetics Journal_ Dead? Jim, I forwarded your question on to Lyn and Barrett, neither of whom are on the Poetics List. There is some question of whether Barry ever READS his email, but at least there is an address. The third editor (who has never seen his work as such make it to print), Kit Robinson, may want to reply in more detail. My understanding is this. There was a long delay created by ye olde funding problems plus the mind-numbing detail of getting the PhD and doing the dissertation (no word yet on whether it has been completed). On top of which, Barry has been deeply ambivalent about poetry (and especially langpo) for some time. Kit was brought on to resolve some of the workload and inertia issues, but when Barry toddled off to Detroit, he took the manuscripts with him. Don't know where it currently stands. I once noted that he had achieved a status with my manuscripts normally reserved for the likes of Kirby Malone and Doug Messerli...greatest time held without publication. He was not amused. Frankly, it's reasonable in such a situation to insist on publication or to take the work back. The sad thing is that it was a great mag, particularly in the first five issues or so. Ron Silliman rsillima@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 02:37:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Minna Street You wrote: > >Kit Robinson = Brisk Notion > >(now, there's a NICE one!) > >Ia anagram OuLiPoian? > Well that typo in the first word certainly is. OuLiPoian? Sounds like that purple taro root paste they use in Hawaii. I always thought it was OuLiPuddlian. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 10:46:05 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R I Caddel Subject: Rights and Rengas In-Reply-To: <199509260618.HAA17338@tucana.dur.ac.uk> Yes, everyone owns what they write, and can therefore give or refuse permission to reproduce it. However, in some circumstances work can be reproduced without copyright holder's permission, providing that "all reasonable measures" to identify copyright holders and obtain permission have been taken. In the case of "works of multiple authorship" where it's difficult to identify individual rights, a rubric of this kind is often used. Obviously, this doesn't apply where the copyright holder has actually denied permission to reproduce. I'd say (privately, but not in court) that contacting the list where the renga was written is taking "all reasonable measures" providing that no mean-minded little so-and-so actually objects personally... Or to put it another way: if you've rung the renga writer for their rights and got a ringer, you can quote the written renga with the writer's rights unritten - you can rate their rights unbidden and so on - ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 07:06:05 -40962758 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Rosenberg Subject: Publications [Hmm, I posted this yesterday but got a strange failure message back from parts along the way; I guess it didn't make it to the list. I wonder if cyberspace is trying to tell me something ...] Since C.B. sayeth one is "breaking the rules" without making official Publication Disclosure: My latest publication -- not exactly recent ('93) -- is _Intergrams_, $19.95, Eastgate Systems, (800) 562-1638, (617) 924-9044, fax (617) 924-9051, 134 Main St Watertown MA 02172 USA, http://www.eastgate.com/. It requires a Macintosh with HyperCard (even an old Mac Plus with 1M RAM will do.) The work prior to that, _Diagrams Series 4_, is available on-line at: http://www.well.com/user/jer/diags4/diags4.html The work that came after _Intergrams_, _Diffractions through: Thirst weep ransack (frailty) veer tide elegy_ has been done for a couple of years, is due out from Eastgate sometime (I have no idea when, they work a bit slowly). Since all the work described above is electronic, this is a good time to bring up the issue of distribution of electronic writing. Last time I looked into this, SPD didn't carry a single electronic title and didn't seem interested in starting. Perhaps things have changed, but I don't think so. Those of you who live in the Bay Area would be doing us electronic writers a favor if you took the time to badger the powers that be at SPD about this whenever you drop in. -- Jim Rosenberg http://www.well.com/user/jer/ CIS: 71515,124 WELL: jer Internet: jr@amanue.pgh.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 12:30:36 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R I Caddel Subject: David Miller In-Reply-To: <199509250407.FAA26134@tucana.dur.ac.uk> Thanks for pointing out David Miller's new Burning Deck publication. David also has "The Book of the Spoonmaker" new from Cloud, 48 Biddlestone Road, Heaton, Newcastle on Tyne NE6 5SL (three pounds fifty including post; Sterling IMOs payable to Cloud). There's also a few of his other books and a book of essays on him available from Stride, 11 Sylvan Road, Exeter EX4 6EW. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx x x x Richard Caddel, E-mail: R.I.Caddel @ durham.ac.uk x x Durham University Library, Phone: 0191 374 3044 x x Stockton Rd. Durham DH1 3LY Fax: 0191 374 7481 x x x x "Words! Pens are too light. Take a chisel to write." x x - Basil Bunting x x x xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 06:34:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Rights and Rengas >Yes, everyone owns what they write, and can therefore give or refuse >permission to reproduce it. Although in this renga in question, or at least in several versions of it, at least one of the lines I wrote (and I suspect this is true for others as well) has been altered by someone else without my permission. This has been done in ways I don't like at all (and to this I object), and more radically altered (the whole form of the renga) in ways I like quite a lot. So, whose writing is it? Did someone violate my rights by altering it in the first place? > I'd say (privately, but not in >court) that contacting the list where the renga was written is taking "all >reasonable measures" providing that no mean-minded little so-and-so >actually objects personally... Maybe my objection makes me a mean-minded little so-and-so, except that I do give permissions to use whatever version anyone wants to use for any purpose whatsoever. But I think that this time I really mean it when I tell myself I'm not contributing to the rengas any more. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 09:32:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: books and dreams It sounds like people are 12-stepping off the renga. I hope you all are as weak about quitting as I suspect I am. Louis, I'd like to see a demonstration, with charts, of the correlation between quantity of prose and zip in renga. Charles, as a renga debaser, I apologize. Rights squabblers--go directly to the archive and search for the following terms: collaborate, renga, poem, "books were dreams". Then remember that everything (according to the new welcome message) here is confidential and that you shouldn't show anything written here to anyone else. Jordan Davis ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 09:59:39 EST Reply-To: dgolumbia@iddis.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Golumbia Subject: Re: News Too >Aldon L. Nielsen wrote: > > Speaking of hot shots -- Dinesh D'Souza has just published a book, _The > End of Racism_, in which he asserts that slavery was not a racist > institution. Young Mr. D'Souza got a grant five times the size of yours > to "research" this book, and has been featured in two successive issues > of the Chronicle of Higher Ed. [etc.] I try to glance through each of these shameful books as they come out. They make me want to wretch. But D'Souza's should be marked out for special attention. It is truly execrable. It even inspired the normally complacent Richard Rorty to something like moral outrage in the latest NYTBR. One expects the resurgence of "scientific" racism in things like THE BELL CURVE at a time like this in our country, and knows the tremendous amount of argument & evidence that can be brought to bear against it as well -- small if cold comfort. But D'Souza's book goes so far beyond that -- making the most outrageous and unbelievable assertions (slavery not being racist among them). It is just gross. Here's a thought: at least one group besides "minorities" gets "preferential treatment" in the US: young, callow, mean-spirited, dumb conservatives, especially if they have some minority background or other. I could name names. I will fabricate a relation between this topic and Poetics (or at least renga) if pressed. -- dgolumbia@iddis.com David Golumbia ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 10:04:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Willa Jarnagin Subject: Re: Renga moan In-Reply-To: <00996EB4.BF90A962.107@admin.njit.edu> On Mon, 25 Sep 1995, Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT wrote: > Somebody give the Rengaists a chat line of their own and/or an electronic > magazine. Is "Poetics" the same thing as "Poetry"? I don't mean to be > restrictive, but, as the joke goes about the husband (no sexism intended) who > petitions the judge for a divorce from his wife of fifty years, and the > judge asks, why, after all this time could you possibly want a divorce, the > husband replies, "Enough is enough already!" > I've been lurking for a while but have to put in my vote: PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, renga writers, get your own chat list! Yes, enough is enough. I don't have sophisticated email and can't filter messages, and I'm tired of my account getting clogged up and slowed down to the speed of sloths fucking. Please excuse my rancor, but it does seem that people on this list are either totally FOR, or totally TIRED OF renga. If the list is already divided as such, why not spawn a new one? I think everyone would be happier. Willa ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 10:09:02 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Alan Golding Subject: What's "poetics?" Associate Professor of English, U. of Louisville Phone: (502)-852-5918; e-mail: acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu What counts as "poetics," Jorge asks? A reasonable enough question, to which I wish I had an answer. However: in Jorge's list of 10 "things that probably count less as poetics than poetry-making," one could find at least half in the poetry-making of (for instance) Pound, Olson, H.D., David Antin, Susan Howe . . . places where one would be hard put to find a single techno-renga. Just sign me Another Renga Crank ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 10:24:27 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: Renga moan jorge, your list is a good one.and the postings of the sort that fall within the purview of the entries on the list I have found to be not only informative and delightful, but necessary. Why, I can even say the same thing about an occasional renga or two. But really, you must be kidding me. do you expect me to believe that you don't see the differences I have pointed out? Burt ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 10:27:44 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: All rengae sound the same Whew, Jorge! I was really worried that I wasn't going to get permission to write rengas! But really, even with a delete command . . . I guess it's like swatting flies; one can even derive some sort of perverse pleasure in eliminating the little buggers, but after a while its just plain old hard work, a bore, and grueling. to say nothing of what the renga phenomenon has done to my poor buffer from time to time. Burt ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 10:28:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: A non-"poetics" anagram In-Reply-To: Without meaning to give any offense: Alan Golding = "anal godling" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 08:02:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Donald Davie 1922-1995 I want to thank Ira for posting this eulogy on Donald Davie. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 12:06:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: WCW what you say, ron, appears reasonable but, i think, beside the point. one can read wordsworth, i suppose, for his "contemporary values" (whatever that means) but a poem in blank verse about sublimity and imagination and one's summer in the alps, written today, runs a risk of being either precious or parody. my heavens, what are you doing defending lyricism, but since that seems the point, welcome! you also seem to be saying (oddly, i should think, for you) to be saying that the poem is free of history. welcome! but now that you're over here, to my pleasure, i suggest h.d. or duncan (particularly within his emerson/h.d. concerns) rather than williams as the interesting place to be. -- why is resistance to williams' first move--not to recycle the past--so difficult to apply to his own past. as for bahktin: he was useful. -ed ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 12:59:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Baker Subject: New Book As my first posting, I am listing publishing information for a book recently published by the University Press of Florida. AUTHOR: Peter Baker TITLE: _Deconstruction and the Ethical Turn_ PRESS: University Press of Florida DATEP: 1995 PRICE: $34.95 From the ad copy: _Deconstruction and the Ethical Turn_ demonstrates the continuing importance of deconstruction and other related movements for current literary theory, insisting on the seriousness of the deconstructive enterprise, its philosophical background, and its possible usefulness for negotiating the political terrain of the postmodern university Peter Baker deals with the theories of such major figures as Jacques Derrida, Michel Foucault, Jacques Lacan, Emmanuel Levinas and Julia Kristeva. He concentrates on the ways that deconstruction allows for an increased understanding of the ethical reading of texts and disputes the view that it places all decision making in the realm of the text. Deconstruction and related types of critical thinking have real-world effects, he argues, and they offer ways of understanding and resisting intersubjective violence. [...] Peter Baker is associate professor of English at Towson State Univer- sity, Towson, Maryland, and the author of _Obdurate Brilliance: Exteriority and the Modern Long Poem_ (UPF, 1991) and _Modern Poetic Practice: Structure and Genesis_ (1985) and coeditor of _The Scope of Words: In Honor of Albert S. Cook_ (1991). He is the editor of a book series, Studies in Modern Poetry. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 12:39:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: privatizing the renga Comments: To: poetics I agree with Charles Bernstein that practice overtakes theory but I don't want the kid next door to bang scales on the piano all day long while I am trying to do anything with my head. Therefore I have decided to buy that kid an electric keyboad and earphones. As to me, I am leaving the public sector, the U.S. Department of Renga, and returning to private practice. I think I have served honorably though obnoxiously at times for which I apologize. I am going to be a renga consultant, though, and if someone posts a renga, I will probably add a line and send it back to the poster only not to the list. I have already invited a number of people to send lines to me to start on a number of private rengas. Once in a while we can send a ***closured*** renga to the list. If anybody wants to unclosure it, do it in the privacy of your home and send it to us. So on to the next topic. In all seriousness, I think that combatting scientific racism is crucial. In a lighter artery, anagram practice will never overtake theory so they are ok in my estimation. And so goodbye, an old rengan never cries, s/he just howls away. jg ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 13:06:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: News Too aldon thanks as always for the disquieting news front. george lipsitz's "The Possessive Investment in Whiteness" will come out in the next American Quarterly, and is good reading for anyone who thinks racism is dead.--md ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 13:08:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: the renga itselves if it's boring who made it so or who didn't make it something to behold that is, it's not the weather or the floors it's maybe more like soccer in the office which I too wish something for it Jordan Davis ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 14:28:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fred Muratori Subject: An Invitation I just wanted to invite members of this list to take a look at the Web version of my mss. _The Spectra_, a collection of 40+ high-velocity lyrics (sorry, RS -- not sure what else to call 'em). Most have seen mag print (in _New Directions_, _Talisman_, _Mudfish_, _BAP '94_, _Denver Qtly_ & others) but are yearning mightily toward the bookable, Web or no Web. Some audio included. The URL is: http://fmref.library.cornell.edu/spectra.html My apologies for the self-advertisement. I do not undertake this lightly, but since I went through the hassle of putting the damned thing up in html, it'd be nice if at least a few folks knew about it. *********************** Fred Muratori "Certain themes are incurable." (fmm1@cornell.edu) - Lyn Hejinian Reference Services Division Olin * Kroch * Uris Libraries Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853 *********************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 15:31:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Willa Jarnagin Subject: Bill Corbett Reading In-Reply-To: William Corbett will read work by his favorite poets, including Lorine Niedecker, Basil Bunting, Frank O'Hara, Elizabeth Bishop, Philip Whalen, and others... SUNDAY, OCTOBER 29, 2 p.m. THE BOOKCELLAR CAFE 1971 Mass. Ave. (Porter Square) Cambridge, Mass. This reading will kick off the new Boston area reading series, Cellar Door Poetry. Cellar Door hopes to pick up where Word of Mouth, the loyally attended Cambridge series run by Michael Franco, left off. Readings will be held once a month (usually the last Sunday) at 2:00, at the Bookcellar Cafe. For more information or to be on our mailing list, contact: Willa Jarnagin or Eric Malone 51 Laurel St. #3 Somerville MA 02143 phone: (617) 623-5153 (or email me) --Willa ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 15:49:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: News Too (fwd) With regard to Dinesh D'Souza: anybody else see the William Raspberry column about the two writers whose names escape me, both black conservatives, who were so incensed by DD'S's book that they publicly dissasociated themselves from the American Enterprise Institute (the "think" tank that ponied up the dough)? It'll be interesting to see if this "study" pits the right against itself: part of me would like to see that, but part of me worries that such an event would lend support to the myth that there is actual political discussion in the U.S. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg No ideas but in things. University Writing Program --W.C. Williams Duke University Durham, NC 27708 No ideas in things, either. kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --John Ashbery ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 16:23:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Smith Subject: Re: Cecil Just thought I'd mention Mr. Taylor's gonna be @ the SF Jazz Fest October 26, both solo & w/ an orchestra which I've heard rumored will be quite large. Takes place @ the Yerba Buena Center for the Arts. I saw Muhal Richard Abrams there among others last March during the Other Minds Festival & it's a great place to hear music. Not too Rova's celebration of the "30th anniversary of John Coltrane's _Ascension_" @ Great American Music Hall Dec 6th. They'll be joined by Glen Spearman, John Tchicai & Raphe Malik among others. Eat yr heart out Herb! or buy a plane ticket... all best, Charles ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 16:33:42 -0400 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: Renga moan thot i shd cast my 2cents, as one who has not found much use for th renga & who regularly deletes, for thier continuation--lest the next excess that irritates is a pearl before me... ...their... lbd ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 17:09:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: MILLENNIUM ANTHOLOGY We -- Pierre Joris & Jerome Rothenberg -- would like to announce that our anthology _POEMS FOR THE MILLENNIUM: The University of California Book of Modern & Postmodern Poetry_ (Vol 1: From Fin-de-Siecle to Negritude) has just come out. It will probably be a few weeks until copies hit the bookstores, but meanwhile, for those interested & unable to wait that long, we will post (as a separate, longish e-mail) the Table of Contents to this list. Here is how UCP describes the book: The University of California Press is Proud to Announce: The First Global Anthology of 20th Century Poetry Poems for the Millennium The University of California Book of Modern and Postmodern Poetry Volume One: From Fin-de-Siecle to Negritude Edited by Jerome Rothenberg and Pierre Joris 0-520-07227-8 $24.95 paper 800 pages, 6 x 9", 20 b/willustrations POEMS FOR THE MILLENNIUM may well be the poetry book-of-the-century: a synthesizing and global anthology with an emphasis on those international and national movements that have tried to change our ways of making poetry and art as a means for changing how we think & act as human beings. This first volume offers three "galleries" of individual poets -- figures like Mallarme, Stein, Rilke, Tzara, Mayakovsky, Pound, H.D.,Vallejo, Artaud, Cesaire, and Tsvetayeva--along with a sampling of the most significant pre-World War II movements in poetry and the other arts: -- Futurism, Expressionism, Dada, Surrealism, "Objectivism," Negritude. The second volume will extend the gathering to the present day, forming a synthesizing and global anthology that goes beyond any existing twentieth-century collection in its cultural scope and experimental range. Jerome Rothenberg is a poet and one of the world's leading anthologists. His more than fifty books include _Technicians of the Sacred: A Range of Poetries from Africa, America, Asia, Europe and Oceania_ (California, 1985). He is Professor of Visual Arts and Literature at the University of California, San Diego. Pierre Joris has published over twenty books of poetry as well as many anthologies and translations. He is Associate Professor of English at the State University of New York, Albany. "The word anthology hardly does justice to Rothenberg and Joris's brilliant reconceptualization of twentieth-century poetry in a global context. This is that rare book that forces us to rethink what the poetic is and can be." -- Marjorie Perloff "This book is destined to become a fundamental resource for the study of twentieth-century literature and culture. Its importance cannot be overstated." -- Charles Bernstein "A riveting literary achievement of phenomenal scope and generosity. This illuminating compendium displays the best of humanity's bardic inheritance and vision.... It should be obligatory reading for all scholars, students, writers, and lovers of poetry." -- Anne Waldman "In an accurately titled Poems for the Millennium we can at last sense the scope of the Revolution of the Word that's been in process sinceQoh, 1895. There's no other anthology like this one, no other overview so adventuresome." -- Hugh Kenner "Rothenberg and Joris's anthology gives us, by virtue of its organic structure and inspired choices, the possibility of a kind of situated internationalism.... It is a sourcebook for the future." -- Gary Snyder "This is not like any other anthology, not a collection of excellences, no absurd imitation of a canon. It's more like a Handbook of Inventors and Inventions, or of Explorers and Discoveries, that opens up all sorts of pathways for poetry from its past and future to a living present... It is above all a book of possibilities and invitations." -- David Antin ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Poems are sketches for existence." Dept. of English | --Paul Celan SUNY Albany | Albany NY 12222 | "Revisionist plots tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | are everywhere and our pronouns haven't yet email: | drawn up plans for the first coup." joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --J.H. Prynne ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 14:25:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: A non-"poetics" anagram In-Reply-To: from "Gwyn McVay" at Sep 26, 95 10:28:00 am Well, I guess "anal godling" is a little better than "anal lodging" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 14:30:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Rights and Rengas In-Reply-To: <199509261134.GAA16033@freedom.mtn.org> from "Charles Alexander" at Sep 26, 95 06:34:49 am I am willing to hand over rights to publishing my parts of the renga, as long as they are changed by someone else. I presume that all conbtributors will see whatever becomes of them... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 14:33:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Minna Street In-Reply-To: <199509260937.CAA07214@ix3.ix.netcom.com> from "Ron Silliman" at Sep 26, 95 02:37:23 am Hey, Ron, you just reminded me of that great doowap song, "Ou Lip the Po in the Po sh Po shPo?" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 14:44:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Donald Davie 1922-1995 In-Reply-To: <00996F76.9FB9AC20.4596@cpcmg.uea.ac.uk> from "I.LIGHTMAN" at Sep 26, 95 08:57:51 am I think that Lightman's encomium for Davie is apt and shd surely be welcomed. Davie , despite his crankiness in some areas, at least announced to the stiff-necked English p[oetry crowd that there was something happening elsewhere. His poetry sounds a little 19thC English to North American ears, but it sounds a lot more beautiful than the stuff you usually see printed in the establishment papers over there. I think that North Americans always wonder how the hell the Brits ever thought that Larkin was more than a light poet. But Davie rests somewhere between the tight collar and proper vest, and Mr Bunting, say. Maybe closest to someone like Tomlinson, who also had an ear cocked westward. Only time I had a real serious talk with Davie, though, was once when I visited Essex with a view to doing a PhD on Bunting in 1966, and Davie sais not a chance, he was saving him for himself. Better than the prof at Sussex who told me not a chance, he had heard that this Bunting fellow was still alive. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 14:56:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: crow moan weather In-Reply-To: from "Alan Sondheim" at Sep 25, 95 10:35:04 pm THE WEATHER 2 Strong wind trying to get old green leaves off the trees, boughs bend reflected in leaf-strewn fish pond, a contradiction in is this Fall? Maple leaves too, curled and brown, caught in the yucca, an orange cat hiding behind it, or is that some imposed imagination? Look at the figs getting darker between fig leaves getting lighter; there's a ghost has time for flowers in October, especially little red ones, because we are somewhere else, a clothing store, a racing Pontiac, a lay-away plan called winter numbers on the wall inside. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 17:41:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: MOO In-Reply-To: It remains odd to me that the only evidence of the Net upon writing here is the quick response of renga-substance oozing from the list. There are all sorts of possibilities. Below is architecture within Media Moo that I have been working on. This is a partial exploration of the space. (In addition Kim Mcglynn and I have been working on texts through Unix talk, Angela Hunter and I used email lists, Kayo Matsushita and I used circle- muds and lpmuds. All the results go onto Cybermind and Fiction-of-Philos- ophy email lists.) ---------------------------------- look Tiffany dense entanglement of fluid, you-know-language, aural, i course thru u, i u, Tiffany course thru alan, Tiffanyalan, breath floods, clitoral, eyes stained by u, u lay me out, lance, skin, nipples, on Menstrual Table, you-know-language Obvious exits: out to Living Quarters - 2nd Floor You see aural here. l aural aural-phone, uterine tendrils, extrusions, circulations of internal fluids l Menstrual Table a dark space of annotations, unreadable, the dinner readied by the male, trapped, a web-inversion, violation, fabric: He sees: a lance impaled on an endless plain of skin l lance holed skin, rimmed with Tiffanyalan l skin lance holed with Tiffanyalan or clitoral l clitoral clitoris l clitoris There appears to be some writing on the note ... read clitoris There appears to be some writing on the note ... a path leads to the tip, plateaus open to frozen space; here, potential fields flow, static-electrical discharging, effluvia, curtained sheets rimming Menstrual Table. the lance tip leans earthward, sodden with menstrual flows, clots, broken writings. your tongue strains, skin against skin, your mouth peels back, your teeth in your nipples, your nipples everything in the world. (You finish reading.) l nipples double cones, flattened, holed with clitoral, intensity of Tiffanyalan, lanced with you-know-language l you-know-language Tiffanyalan l Tiffanyalan you-know-language, sheen, tongue-rimmed, hole towards u, cum across u, she arches, u beneath, pornog, its penis, its vagina, u Tiffanyalan you-know-language l penis I see no "penis" here. l vagina I see no "vagina" here. @quit *** Disconnected *** Connection closed by foreign host. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 20:11:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Scroggins Subject: Re: Donald Davie 1922-1995 In-Reply-To: <00996F76.9FB9AC20.4596@cpcmg.uea.ac.uk> My thanks as well to Ira for the Davie obituary. I remember a pleasant hour spent with him in his office at Vanderbilt University, watching him continually relight his pipe and counsel me, a prospective graduate student, that I would be better off pursuing my honors thesis on Bunting than on Robert Duncan. When I told him how fascinated I was by the eclecticism of Duncan's influences, he shook his head slowly: "Eclectic indeed--rather an eclectic _fudge_, I should say." That was my introduction to Bunting's work. Later, he would send me a syllabus for a graduate seminar he had taught on the Objectivists, from which Zukofsky was unaccountably absent(!); "He would have taken up far too much of the semester, with too little reward," was Davie's explanation. I was inclined to dismiss him as an old fart at the time, an impression further strengthened by his scathing review of Williams's collected poems a couple of years later, and his casual dropping (somewhere) of the opinion that Niedecker was on a par with Dickinson--both "minor female poets." But if Davie was never quite vanguard enough for my tastes, he always remained a staunch advocate of a Poundian poetics--not a popular position in England, nor in America, where Helen Vendler takes every opportunity to berate Davie for his "unaccountable" appreciation of Pound. [Speaking of which, does anyone have a citation for the Ashbery interview where he says that Vendler told him (Ashbery) in conversation, "Of course you don't like The Cantos. You have to be a fascist to like The Cantos"?] He was always a graceful writer--not a skill valued by many American academics, nor, unfortunately, by many of those who write about poetry in America--and he was never afraid to hold unpopular opinions. His Pound books remain useful. His _Under Briggflatts_,while highly spotty, is consistently entertaining. My personal favorite of his books is _A Gathered Church: the Literature of the English Dissenting Interest, 1700-1930_, a lovely and eclectic piece of historical scholarship and criticism. Mark Scroggins ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 12:41:04 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: MOO More info please on techniqalities. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 21:00:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: MILLENNIUM TABLE OF CONTENT In-Reply-To: <199509262109.RAA26289@loki.hum.albany.edu> from "Pierre Joris" at Sep 26, 95 05:09:16 pm Poems for the Millennium The University of California Book of Modern and Postmodern Poetry Volume One: From Fin-de-Siecle to Negritude Edited by Jerome Rothenberg and Pierre Joris T a b l e o f C o n t e n t s Forerunners Prologue to Forerunners William Blake "Obey thou the Words of the Inspired Man" Friedrich Holderlin In the Days of Socrates Elias Lonnrot From The Kalevala Walt Whitman This Compost Charles Baudelaire Fuses I & II Emily Dickinson Fascicle 34 Poem 9 Bald Mountain Zaum-Poems Gerard Manley Hopkins That Nature is a Heraclitean Fire and of the Comfort of the Resurrection Isidore Ducasse, Comte de Lautreamont From Maldoror Arthur Rimbaud From A Season In Hell After Bitahatini From The Night Chant Stephane Mallarme From Le Livre A First Gallery Stephane Mallarme A Throw of the Dice Never Will Abolish Chance C.P. Cavafy Expecting The Barbarians Days of 1908 And I Lounged and Lay on their Beds Adolf Wolfli Nostalgic Song for My Beloved from From the Cradle to the Graave, or, through working and sweating, suffering and hardship, even through prayer into damnation Match Factory at Chaami 1911 Ruben Dario Far away and long ago To Roosevelt Paul Valery Crusoe Alfred Jarry The Passion of Christ Considered as an Uphill Bicycle Race Gertrude Stein From Tender Buttons A Valentine to Sherwood Anderson From "Lifting Belly" Rainer Maria Rilke Death Tombs of the Hetaerae The First Duino Elegy Max Jacob 1914 From The Cock and the Pearl Andrey Bely From The Dramatic Symphony Guillaume Apollinaire Horse Calligram Zone A Phantom of Clouds The Little Car From Poems for Lou From Victoire Pablo Picasso A Bottle of Suze Franz Kafka Before the Law Mina Loy Night Suite, for Piano & Poet's Voice Ode for Walt Whitman Dino Campana Genoa Fernando Pessoa "The startling reality of things" From Maritime Ode From Oblique Rain Ezra Pound Papyrus The Return Canto One Hagiwara Sakutaro Chair Spring Night Lover of Love So Terrifyingly Melancholy Blaise Cendrars The Great Fetishes From The Prose of the Trans-Siberian and of Little Jeanne of France Marcel Duchamp The 1914 Box Giuseppe Ungaretti Three Poems Morning Soldiers Babel The Rivers Pierre Reverdy Secret Flower Market Inn Squares Vicente Huidobro Ars Poetica Cow Boy Express Futurisms Prologue to Futurism I Carlo Carra: Demonstration for Intervention in the War F.T. Marinetti FromThe Manifesto of Futurism Apres la Marne, Joffre visita le front en auto From Zang Tumb Tuuum Successively From The Variety Theatre Manifesto Four Sintesi Francesco Cangiullo : Detonation F.T. Marinetti: A Landscape Heard F.T. Marinetti: They are Coming Fortunato Depero: Colors Paolo Buzzi Finger-Nails Aldo Palazzeschi The Stranger Nuns Go Walking Prologue to Futurism II Vassily Kamensky Constantinople: Ferroconcrete Poem D. Burliuk, A. Kruchenykh, V. Mayakovsky, V. Khlebnikov From A Slap in the Face of Public Taste Velimir Khlebnikov Incantation by Laughter Four Poems From Zangezi Aleksei Kruchenykh Declaration of the Word as Such From Pomade From the Sahara to America Vladimir Mayakovsky Listen From A Cloud in Trousers Screaming My Head Off Mayakovsky's Suicide Note Anatol Stern Europa Expressionism Prologue to Expressionism Wassily Kandinsky Sounds Chalk and Soot Else Lasker-Schuler Chronica Three Portraits George Trakl Georg Grosz To the Barbarian: August Stramm Encounter Urdeath Battlefield Paul Klee The Wolf Speaks Poem A Friend The Happy One Poem Gottfried Benn Little Aster Lovely Childhood Cycle Man and Woman Go Through the Cancer Ward Night Cafe A Bunch of Drifter Sons Hollered Georg Trakl Sleep The Evening De Profundis Revelation and Decline Dada Prologue to Dada Tristan Tzara Zurich Chronicle February 1916 Hugo Ball The Sun From Flight Out of Time The Complete Sound-Poems of Hugo Ball Tristan Tzara Metal Coughdrops Chanson Dada From Dada Manifesto on Feeble Love and Bitter Love The Great Lament of My Obscurity Three Richard Huelsenbeck "We Hardly" Richard Huelsenbeck, Marcel Janko, Tristan Tzara L'Amiral cherche une maison a louer Hans Arp Kaspar Is Dead People The Great Unrestrained Sadist The Man. The Woman Francis Picabia Spermal Chimney From Eunuch Unique Portrait de Tristan Tzara Marcel Duchamp Speculations SURcenSURE Cast Shadows Else von Freytag-Loringhoven Affectionate Holy Skirts Kurt Schwitters Desire Portrait of Herwath Walden Anna Blossom Has Wheels Murder Machine 43 From Ur Sonata Theo van Doesburg Still Life: The Table Remembrance of the Founts of Night G. Ribemont-Dessaignes Artichokes Andre Breton The Mystery Corset Andre Breton & Philippe Soupault From The Magnetic Fields A Second Gallery Wiliam Butler Yeats From A Vision and The Second Coming Gertrude Stein Identity a Poem Rainer Maria Rilke The Eighth Duino Elegy Wallace Stevens Dance of the Macabre Mice Connoisseur of Chaos James Joyce From Ulysses William Carlos Williams The Locust Tree in Flower Paterson D.H. Lawrence Tortoise Shout Ezra Pound Canto 32 Canto 51 H.D. (Hilda Doolittle) From Tribute to the Angels Marianne Moore Sea Unicorns and Land Unicorns T.S. Eliot [The Waste Land] St.- John Perse From Anabasis Edith Sitwell From Facade Still Falls the Rain The Madwoman in the Park Osip Mandelstam From Tristia Whoever Finds a Horseshoe Poem No. 286 (On Stalin) The Charlie Chaplin Poem Last Poems Edith Sodergran Hell Vierge Moderne Instinct Cesar Vallejo From Trilce: IX, XXV, LXXV The Hungry Man's Wheel Telluric and Magnetic Vicente Huidobro From Altazor: Cantos I, VI, VII Jorge de Lima Distribution of Poetry Papa John The Enormous Hand Poem of Any Virgin J.V. Foix When I Sleep, Then I See Clearly I Arrived in That Town, Everyone Greeted Me, and I Recognized No One. When I Was Going to Read My Verses, the Devil, Hidden Behind a Tree, Called Out to Me Sarcastically and Filled My Hands with Newspaper Clippings Marina Tsvetayeva From "The Poem of the End" e.e. cummings No Thanks, No. 70 Poem, or Beauty Hurts Mr. Vinal Lucian Blaga I will not Crush the World's Corolla of Wonders Psalm Jacob Glatshteyn To a Friend Who Wouldn't Bother to Strain His Noodleboard Because Even So It Is Hard to Go Hunting When Your Rifle Is Blunt and Love Is Soft As an Old Blanket Eugenio Montale The Lemon Trees The Eel Little Testament Paul van Ostaijen The Murderers Hart Crane The Mango Tree The Circumstance O Carib Isle! Frederico Garcia Lorca Night Suite, for Piano & Poet's Voice Ode for Walt Whitman Surrealism Prologue to Surrealism Andre Breton From Manifesto of Surrealism (1924) Robert Desnos Trance Event Language Event One Language Event Two Andre Breton A Man and Woman Absolutely White Free Union Poem-Object On The Road to San Romano Go-for-Broke Philippe Soupault Four Poems Route Life-Saving Medal Sporting Goods Sunday Comrade Louis Aragon Poem to Shout in the Ruins Benjamin Peret My Final Agonies Joan of Arc On All Fours Robert Desnos Cuckoo Midway Epitaph Tristan Tzara: Maison Aragon From The Approximate Man Gisele Prassinos Hair Tonic A Conversation Paul Eluard/Andre Breton From The Immaculate Conception Salvador Dali The Great Masturbator Max Ernst From The Hundred Headless Woman Antonin Artaud All Writing is Garbage The Spurt of Blood "Objectivists" Prologue to "Objectivists" Ezra Pound Vortex.Pound. William Carlos Williams From Spring and All Louis Zukofsky From Poem beginning "The" George Oppen Discrete Series Charles Reznikoff Testimony Carl Rakosi A Journey Away Basil Bunting From The First Book of Odes "Weeping oaks grieve, chestnuts raise" Vestiges The Orotava Road Negritude Prologue to Negritude Aime Cesaire Macumba Word Aime Cesaire & Rene Depestre From Discourse on Colonialism Leopold Sedar Senghor Speech and Image: An African Tradition of the Surreal Taga for Mbaye Dyob Man and Beast The Kaya-Magan Leon Damas Just Like the Legend S.O.S. Hiccups Aime Cesaire From Notebookof a Return to the Native Land The Miraculous Weapons A Third Gallery Anna Ahkmatova Requiem Nelly Sachs Chorus of the Dead Chorus of the Stars Hugh MacDiarmid From A Drunk Man Looks at the Thistle David Jones Miyazawa Kenji Spring and the Ashura Daydreaming on the Trail Pictures of the Floating World Bertolt Brecht First Psalm (Posthumous) Three Fragments Alabama Song Melvin Tolson From The Harlem Gallery: Book I, the Curator Henri Michaux From Slices of Knowledge Tomorrow Francis Ponge The Oyster From The Sun Placed in the Abyss Wen Yiduo (Wen I-to) Dead Water Miracle Vitezslav Nezval City with Towers Trap Door George Seferis The Poplar Leaf Mathios Paskalis Among the Roses Les Anges Sont Blancs Laura Riding Elegy in a Spider's Web Gyula Illyes A Winter Memory While the Record Plays Nazim Hikmet Letters from Chankiri Prison Langston Hughes From Montage of A Dream Deferred Carlos Drummond de Andrade The Dead in Frock Coats The Dirty Hand Motionless Faces Lorine Niedecker News Subliminal Nicolas Guillen Don't Know No English Sensemaya Wake for Papa Montero Moon The Usurers From The Daily Daily Pablo Neruda Walkin' Around Sexual Water Only Death Louis Zukofsky From Songs of Degrees "A" 1 Kenneth Rexroth From Prolegomena to a Theodicy Kusano Shimpei Birthday Party 4 or 5 Tadpoles Skylarks and Fuji Gunnar Ekelof Like Ankle-Rings, This Music If You Ask Me Absentia Animi Rene Char From Leaves of Hypnos Roger Gilbert-Lecomte Preface or The Drama of Absence in an Eternal Heart The Son of the Bone Speaks Old Precept of the Dead World Wink Rene Daumal From Clavicles for a Great Poetic Game Persephone That is to Say Double Issue Short Revelation Concerning Death and Chaos Miklos Radnoti The Angel of Dread Seventh Eclogue Yi Sang From Crow's-Eye-View Paper Memorial Stone Soyong Problems From Critical Condition Muriel Rukeyser The Dam Octavio Paz Hymn among the Ruins A Book of Origins Prologue to Origins Confucius / Ezra Pound From The Great Digest Orpingalik (Netsilik Eskimo / Inuit) "Songs are thoughts, sung out with the breath..." Arunta (Australia) Alcheringa Definitions Leopold Sedar Senghor LThe African image is not an image by equation..." Allama Prabhu (Kannada, India) For the Lord of Caves Clayton Eshleman Placements I Robert Duncan From "Rites of Participation" Amiri Baraka (LeRoi Jones) From Why's/Wise Aborigine Sound Poem (Australia) Lily Events (Arnhem Land, Australia) From The Goulburn Island Cycle (Arnhem Land, Australia) Tristan Tzara From Poemes Negres The Dance of the Greased Women Tropical Winter Awotunde Aworinde From Ifa Suite in Praise of the Yoruba Oracle Aime Cesaire Ex-Voto for a Shipwreck Three for Bear Seven Songs & Song Pictures Richard Johnny John, Jerome Rothenberg, Ian Tyson Songs from the Society of the Mystic Animals Simon Ortiz Telling About Coyote From Cantares Mexicanos Maria Sabina From The Midnight Velada The 13th Horse Song of Frank Mitchell From The I Ching The Marrying Maiden Jackson Mac Low Mani-Mani Gatha Ezra Pound Canto 49 Charles Olson The Song of Ullikummi Armand Schwerner Tablet V From The Thunder, Perfect Mind Diane Di Prima From Loba Doc Reese Ol' Hannah Naftali Bacharach A Poem for the Sefirot as a Wheel of Light Jacques Gaffarel Celestial Alphabet Event Edmond Jabes ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 21:50:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: MOO In-Reply-To: <13EC3A6467D@ccnov2.auckland.ac.nz> A MOO is a MUD-Object-Oriented, and a MUD is a multi-user-domain or dungeon; these developed out of role-playing games like Dungeons and Dragons. The MUDs developed into various other forms, and the MOO is one of them; it's a textual space, a virtual (textual) environment in which users can both talk to one another in real time, and building/construct various rooms, objects, etc. - again, all textual. LambdaMOO was the first, began by Pavil Curtis at xeroxparc; Media MOO is run by the MIT Media Lab (it's overt virtual space is that of the lab itself); and PMC Moo, which I'm "active" on, is down at the moment, coming back as PMC2 (post-modern-culture, run out of the University of Virginia). To get to Media MOO, telnet: telnet 18.85.0.48 8888 and sign in as guest. Some commands: help gives you all kinds of information; @go # takes you to a location as in @go #2014 which will take you to Tiffany; say results in someone else reading Guest says "xyz" @join takes you to name, and emote is feeling happy results in someone else reading Guest is feeling happy. There are a number of commands; it takes a while to get used to it, but becomes simpler as you go along. I've not been on Lambda, which has thousands of users; Media is almost empty. PMC has been going through a lot of politics and is changing as I've said. These programs can run 35-40 megabytes, although the basics are around 4 megabytes; they also run in RAM and are downloaded several times a day, in case of disk failure. The most sophisticated, like Media, have libraries and research tools within them, like gopher and ftp access, usable by groups of people at a time. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 21:53:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: crow moan weather In-Reply-To: <199509262156.VAA04533@fraser.sfu.ca> This reminded me of in the mountains work I have done; this weekend I was in the mountains with two women both of whom had their brothers commit suicide this past year. & one of the brothers had seen The Crow and wanted to come back as a crow and help people and had said that shortly before he died. & he hung himself on a jungle gym. In the mountains I stayed in his room and a week before the anniversary of his death a dead crow was found in the center of his bed. & everyone is scared. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 20:21:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: METHOD In-Reply-To: <199509262156.VAA04533@fraser.sfu.ca> from "George Bowering" at Sep 26, 95 02:56:20 pm METHOD under glass the sphynx purrs table sunshine heiroglyphics my cat sleeps yawns away 3000years toppledown tired maybe Ellie still stirs sheds a coat of museum dust then with her bedlam tongue ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 13:23:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: AWOL Small press distribution AWOL Small press distribution four W magazine now available from Gleebooks four W is a literary magazine published by the Wagga Wagga Writers Writers with the assistance of Booranga, The Riverina Writers' Centre at Charles Sturt University. Issue 5, which is currently available from Gleebooks 49 Glebe Point Road Glebe NSW phone (02) 6602333, includes poetry and prose by Dorothy Porter, Steve Evans, Jeff Guess, Tim Thorne, Kate Llewellyn, Ken Boulton & John Jenkins, Richard James Allen, Coral Hull, MTC Cronin, Myron Lysenko, David Gilbey, Margaret Bradstock, Rory Harris, David King, Kyle Powderly, Mark O'Flyn, Archimede Fusillo and many more. Issue 6, together with The Famous Reporter, Hermes, A Familiar Need: An Anthology of Poems from the Maitland & Hunter River Region edited by Bruce Copping - Nimrod Publications, Brian Purcell's Lovely Infestation - we make u sick press and Sheila Murphy's A Clove of Gender - Stride Press (UK) and Pure Mental Breath - Gesture Press (Canada), should be available from a quality Sydney bookshop near you shortly. These titles are distributed in Sydney by Australian Writing On Line, PO Box 333 Concord NSW. Phone (02) 747 5667, Fax (02) 747 2802. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 23:42:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marjorie Perloff Subject: Re: Donald Davie In-Reply-To: <199509270403.VAA09822@leland.Stanford.EDU> I too mourn the loss of Donald Davie! I first met Donald at one of those Pound conferences at Orono and he was feisty and terrific: I like his first Pound book very much, ARTICULATE ENERGY even better. But he was a very difficult and self-destructive person. When I published my Frank O'Hara book, he wrote me a letter scolding me for writing about such a terrible person and objected vehemently to Frank's being gay. "The Muse," he told me, "is female!" and so GAYS CAN'T WRITE POETRY! An amazing, absurd letter. He took the line, "I drink to keep from getting bored," and said "If he's so bored let him leave poetry to those of us who are not bored!" etc etc. At some point in the 70s, he seemed to derail somewhat. Having been such a passionate fighter for the new, he left Stanford first for Vanderbilt (which he sadly and mistakenly took for the "Old South") and then back to England and became increasingly pugnacious and defensive. I suspect it was because he felt his poetry wasn't getting its due--and it's true (to my mind) that DD was much better critic than poet. But he did write some wonderful reviews (collected in Barry Alpert's book) and essays on Pound. One of the best is the one about a walking tour in Provence and how geography works in poetry. He wrote brilliantly about syntax: the difference a shift to the past tense could make. But his politics became increasingly problematic as did his social/cultural attitudes--and so it was a sad last few years. It's interesting to me that Ira is so keen on the poetry--makes me want to go back and reread. Marjorie Perloff ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 03:00:09 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Blair Seagram Subject: or on Tues 26 Sept, Mark Roberts wrote: zap rengas=8A or The Zenga Rap on Mon 25 Sept Jordan Davis wrote: don't forget the old "is there really a David Ayre" this is a Les Ayre TC/PG BS ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 10:38:23 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R I Caddel Subject: Re: Rights and Rengas In-Reply-To: <199509270403.FAA06573@tucana.dur.ac.uk> Whoops! Sorry to tread thus upon Charles's toes - I'd deleted all previous postings on this (as I had all Rengas) and had forgotten that anyone had dissented. It's a nice point, and you could all waste many legal $$$ on it if you're so inclined: (a) one refusal to reproduce does indeed scupper the whole collaborative project, unless it can be agreed that (b) it was a collaborative project from the outset, with everyone accepting the possibility of collective revision. I must say it looked pretty collaborative to me, from the outside - but can I join those urging the Renga set to go into the back room and sort it amongst themselves? RC ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 10:24:20 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R I Caddel Subject: Donald Davie In-Reply-To: <199509270403.FAA06573@tucana.dur.ac.uk> Good to read so many positive testimonials to Donald Davie. Like many I grew up with his criticism around me, particularly the Pound work, and I'll miss him, grumpiness and all. It seemed to fall on me to disagree with him in public quite a lot - such as (a) when he suggested that the Native North Americans are absent from Lorine Niedecker's Lake Superior, (b) when he argued that Bunting was a poet of religious orthodoxy and (c) when he asserted that Zukofsky wasn't worth talking about. So that when we met we were both a little surprised to find that the other wasn't as fierce as we'd expected. The remarkable thing was that he did generally continue talking about such people when most UK "establishment" critics didn't. In his south-yorkshire bloody-mindedness ("the Geoff Boycott of literature" someone said) Davie was very like the late Eric Mottram - a comparison which would make both of them grumble a lot. But where Davie came to assert tradition and authority, Mottram remained committed to everything radical. With mentors like these, what shall we do but go schizophrenic? And miss them both, in their various ways. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx x x x Richard Caddel, E-mail: R.I.Caddel @ durham.ac.uk x x Durham University Library, Phone: 0191 374 3044 x x Stockton Rd. Durham DH1 3LY Fax: 0191 374 7481 x x x x "Words! Pens are too light. Take a chisel to write." x x - Basil Bunting x x x xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 10:46:23 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R I Caddel Subject: Meanwhile, back in the Orient... In-Reply-To: <199509270403.FAA06573@tucana.dur.ac.uk> Has anyone mentioned the latest Parataxis? It's an anthology of Chinese poetry in translation: ORIGINAL : Chinese Language-Poetry Group, translated by Jeff Twitchell from contemporary Chinese poetry by the ORIGINALS, Che Qianzi, Zhou Yaping, Yi Cun, Hong Liu, Huang Fan and Xian Meng, including manifestoes, letters, critical sketches and an afterword by J.H.Prynne. Parataxis #7, 1995, four pounds, from Drew Milne, School of English and American Studies, University of Sussex, Falmer, Brighton, BN1 9QN, UK. RC ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 07:53:38 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "H. T. KIRBY-SMITH" Organization: University of NC at Greensboro Subject: Rengas and Williams Although I spoke kindly of the renga and asked to print a piece of it, it does begin to seem like one of those dancing diseases that they caught in the Middle Ages. I wouldn't want to make more trouble for anyone, but a few simple electronic commands on the Buffalo listserver would set up another list called "Renga" --or maybe "Rengaroom"--no that has too many letters. Meantime, I think I have come across something that illustrates exactly what Williams did for us in writing "Spring and All." Compare that poem with this one, copyright 1911, by Cordie Webb Ingram whose face peers out with innocent wonder from the frontespiece of her collection of poems, published by Broadway Publishing. SPRINGTIME By Cordie Webb Ingram It is springtime, happy springtime, once again, All Nature seems aroused as if from sleep; The bird's notes thrill us--oh, so clear and deep-- The western zephyrs round us gently sweep, And whisper promises of joy for pain. There is a hint of active life within the wood; The brown, bare limbs of winter turning green, The bare earth woos a fresher, brighter, sheen, The subtle snunlight steals the leaves, between, As if these children of the forest understaood. The frisky squirrel leaps from bough to bough [I don't think I care to type in more about the squirrel] There is a mighty whispering 'neath the soil. The infant plants anticipate the light, And vaguely dream of time, when they bedight, Will flaunt themselves in shades, red, green, and white; Transition strange, accomplished without toil. [after several more stanzas the poem ends with the assertion that "sweet Springtime...keeps us daily from the Tempter's snare."] Now Williams: By the road to the contagious hospital under the surge of the blue mottled clouds driven from the northeast--a cold wind. Beyond, the waste of broad, muddy fields brown with dried weeds, standing and fallen patches of standing water the scattering of tall trees All along the road the reddish purplish, forked, upstanding, twiggy stuff of bushes and small trees with dead, brown leaves under them leafless vines-- Lifeless in appearance, sluggish dazed spring approaches-- They enter the new world naked, cold, uncertain of all save that they enter. All about them the cold, familiar wind-- Now the grass, tomorrow the stiff curl of wildcarrot leaf One by one objects are defined-- It quickens: clarity, outline of leaf But now the stark dignity of entrance--Still, the profound change has come upon them: rooted they grip down and begin to awaken. It would be easy to write pages of commentary comparing these two poems. A couple of similarities seem to me even more remarkable than all their differences. But Williams's is like some huge and at first discordant organ blast--and yet completely unpretentious. Tom Kirby-Smith ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 09:37:16 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: MOO i'm not sure what tony green has meant in his posting by "techniqualities" but i confess to be intrigued by this. could i be let in too? burt kimmelman kimmelman@admin.njit.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 10:01:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: bland abstract lyrics, or you've got wheat in your eye Ron Silliman's side comment, a few days ago, that "bland abstract lyrics" are now the dominant strain of avant garde writing in 1995 is a criticism that emerging avant garde writers need to pay close attention to. The silence attending his remark (which, admittedly, he made on the side of other concerns) is disturbing. Do the younger avant garde writers on this list accept Ron's characterization? Are the potential implications of such a comment (that new avant garde writers are out of touch, apolitical, or otherwise spaced out) also things that you accept? I think that there's a far vaster range of committed, intelligent, and innovative emerging writers out there than such a comment would imply, although it may be true that there's more bland abstract disengagement than we ought to be comfortable with. Whatever the truth of Ron's statement, is it acceptable for younger writers to let an older, justifiably respected writer such as Ron Silliman be the only commentator on this list on the subject of what emerging avant garde writers are up to? Would not quiet on this subject imply a (perhaps unintentional) public agreement, an implied agreement that we ought very definitely to challenge? Mark Wallace ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 09:07:33 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: Donald Davie My one vivid recollection of Donald Davie comes from the late 1960s, at Stanford. Bruce Franklin, who was organizing an armed militia (The Venceremos Brigade), would challenge fellow faculty members to political debates. Franklin was quite popular with the students; he was also a quick thinker. Nearly all of the faculty refused the offer of a public debate. (Bear in mind, these teach-ins took place during a series of three successive springs when we shut down the campus.) Davie was the only one who took up Franklin's offer. The position that Davie took, which befuddled nearly everyone, was an advocacy of the value of irony, a position which he articulated based in part on some writings by Thomas Mann.... Hank Lazer ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 23:40:11 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: Sheila, Chris & Jorge's Excellent Adventure >SEM-CC-JG BRANCH 9/19/95 J adding to C adding to J adding to S > >> >> >> >in the books were dreams and in the dreams were >> >> >> >books.And flew > >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> (...) >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> >spending the bulk of closure with sentient scoops >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> that fluke picnic shot out of these worlds we spread >>been- >to >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> say that the center cannot hold the nose tackle much >>longe >r >> >> >> >>> >than a clam can sleeve out of incarceration baldly >> >> >> >>> go where others fear to operate the biggest donors hive >> >> >> >>> & where Mars collides with the small world of "It's a small >> >>world >> >" >> >> >> >ripe for macroscopes to pump or slice or butterfly away >> >> >> from that ardent bugged heliotrope and pledge allegiance through >> >> > ostension--we stopped short of the shortstop stigmata >> >> this time pencilled in as tangly wisps instead of memory >> > detonations: but don't forget to dismember the doloroso >> pitchpipe with its squeal subtracted and the dotted-line relationships >and sing "I Love Time but I love Your Spatial Simulacra Much More" >> for the brevity inferred and for the latchkey touch more like a feather >> drizzling blood of picklet beet all over the related phenomena > braising from punch a drunk streak which no absolute bearings flew off the Handel I did not miss for Pergolesi was by the pergola with shadows of her former selves implanting pre-recorded brick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 09:46:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: Poetic Briefs #19 Poetic Briefs #19, The Review Issue, featuring short commentaries on a large number of new books of poetry, is now available. PB #19 also features a special supplement--"Emerging Avant Garde Writers and the 'Post-Language Crisis,'" an essay by Mark Wallace. Poetic Briefs is encouraging responses on the supplement around the issues and problems facing new and emerging avant garde writers. What roles are we playing? What places do we find ourselves in? What problems of form/finances/culture face emerging avant garde writers? Poetic Briefs encourages any and all short (and even longer) responses. The new address for Poetic Briefs: Poetic Briefs 2510 Highway 100 South #333 St. Louis Park, MN 55416 Subscriptions are $10 for six 16-pg. issues, or $3 for a single or back issue. (I'm posting this message for Jeff Hansen and Elizabeth Burns, who will be joining us on-line very soon.) mw ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 11:10:17 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Bouchard/College/hmco Subject: Re: bland abstract lyrics, or you've got wheat in your eye My mail system was "down" for a few days so I missed Ron's original posting. I am gladly unsure whether my own poetry would be considered "avant garde," but because I fall into the "young" category I wanted to voice my opinion. My poetry is certainly not bland or abstract, altho at times it is lyrical. It is also consciously political: in strains of Olson, Howe, Rexroth, Baraka, Patchen, Oppen, Duncan and Silliman. I can relate, however, with the generalizations made about young writers today as implied by Mark's questions. There are few writers my age I know who have political concerns- or at least who let those concerns show in their poetry. They may admire the poets I listed but not for the same reasons: that their poetry possesses attentions to the past and present and regards politics as a major player in individual lives. On the other hand, there are more poets my age I have neither read nor met than otherwise. I cannot agree that any generational issues can be firmly characterized while that generation is still "emerging." As for "letting" Ron be the only commentator about what emerging writers are up to: well, he's no longer the only one. Altho, I've learned much from Ron's writings, and am always interested in what he has to say. daniel_bouchard@hmco.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 10:52:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: bland abstract lyrics, or you've got wheat in your eye In-Reply-To: Thank you, Mark, for bringing this up. Since I would very much like to learn from the old avant guardists I would need some ***concrete*** examples of bland abstract lyrics so as to avoid them and of nonbland nonabstract lyrics so as to emulate them. Jorge On Wed, 27 Sep 1995, Mark Wallace wrote: > Ron Silliman's side comment, a few days ago, that "bland abstract > lyrics" are now the dominant strain of avant garde writing in 1995 is > a criticism that emerging avant garde writers need to pay close attention > to. The silence attending his remark (which, admittedly, he made on the > side of other > concerns) is disturbing. Do the younger avant garde writers on this list > accept Ron's characterization? Are the potential implications of such a > comment (that new avant garde writers are out of touch, apolitical, or > otherwise spaced out) also things that you accept? I think that there's a > far vaster range of committed, intelligent, and innovative emerging > writers out there than such a comment would imply, although it may be > true that there's more bland abstract disengagement than we ought to be > comfortable with. Whatever the truth of Ron's statement, is it acceptable > for younger writers to let an older, justifiably respected writer such as > Ron Silliman be the only commentator on this list on the subject of > what emerging avant garde writers are up to? Would not quiet on this > subject imply a (perhaps unintentional) public agreement, > an implied agreement that we ought very definitely to challenge? > > Mark Wallace > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 12:07:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Beth Russell Subject: CALL FOR WORK CALL FOR WORK VISUAL BEHAVIORS/Digital PRODUCTIONS THE LITTLE MAGAZINE VOL.21B, an extension of the Volume 21 CD-ROM project, is now accepting work suitable for electronic publication on the World Wide Web. We are looking particularly for writing, (poetry, fiction, criticism, theory or multi-genre work), visual and sound art conceived as multi-media: visual/verbal/aural/textual and hypertextual collaborations. We invite you to exercise the possibilities in ways WE haven't even thought of (and we lay awake pondering these things at night.) The limits (as always) are only those which the technology still places on the imagination and vice versa. The proposed theme of the upcoming magazine is VISUAL BEHAVIORS. Please feel free to stretch and manipulate this theme to suit your purposes. Send work from September 1, 1995 through February 1996. Sooner is better. SEND TO: WWW Editorial Collective THE LITTLE MAGAZINE Department of English University at Albany Albany, New York 12222 E-mail: BG1640@cnsvax.albany.edu or litmag@cnsunix.albany.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 13:08:06 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Edwards <100344.2546@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Royal Albert Hall Do-wingy Responding to William Northcutt - I have here a leaflet advertising this bash. You can get tickets in advance from the promoter, Goldmark, Orange Street, Uppingham, Rutland, UK, telephone 01572 821 424. They cost 15 pounds, 12 pounds 50 and 10 pounds. But I should imagine you'd get in if you turn up at the Albert Hall on the day. (Which is 16 Oct, at 7.30pm.) Goldmark is run by Mike Goldmark, the eccentric second-hand book dealer and gallery owner who championed Iain Sinclair by privately publishing his first novel, White Chappell. I can't imagine this venture will be other than a financial disaster but I'm intrigued to hear the mix (Kathy Acker and Sorley MacLean on the same bill? Our own cris cheek with Ginsberg?), so we shall see... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 13:08:09 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Edwards <100344.2546@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: All rengae sound the same It is / they are beginning to remind me of the blob in the eponymous film. Steve McQueen, where are you? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 13:10:01 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeff Hansen Organization: The Blake School Subject: newpoets Hi! I'm Jeff Hansen, and I've just subscribed. mark Wallace's challenge to emerging poets to answer Silliman's claim that we are producing boring lyrics is worth paying attention to. How many young poets has Ron read? Should he have much authority if he does not know much about us? Could he name names please? the reason i ask for such specificity is because, well, of course some of us are boring lyric writers. but aren't most poets in any generation not going to set the world on fire? Many of us do not write lyrics, and those that do cannot be easily dismissed. Can the work of Juliana Spahr be considered bland lyrics? For heaven sakes, she collages together material that she heard on Oprah! Is Stephen-Paul Martin considered part of this younger generation? If so, how can his "The Flood" (Runaway Spoon Press) be considered lyrical? It uses an electric typewriter to create the most arresting visual poetry I have yet to encounter. And who's to say that the lyric is entirely outmoded? If what Silliman wants of a new generation us formal aesthetic novelty, I doubt he'll get it from us. But, as has often been mentioned, the "make it new" manifesto is now standard marketing tool for corporate America (new and improved ERA meets new and improved experimental poetry.) May i suggest that "what's new" about this generation is its abject refusal to believe that new techniques are better techniques, that we must forge ahead into the wild blue yonder of aesthetic innovation, etc. Isn't there plenty of room for experiment, exploration, and expression in the forms already available? And if that makes me appear conservative, then where do you wnat us to go? Into poems composed of keyboard symbols such as &***((^%^$$~!@??? Seems boring. The wild blue yonder school of poetic innovation may have hit a wall, because what's on the other side, after we break on through, might be nothing more than innovation for innovation's sake. The advantage of working within the "avant-garde" network is that it gives us a much wider assortment of formal strategies, not that it sends us out. Far Out Jeff Hansen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 11:50:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Graham John Sharpe Subject: Re: millennium table of contents it is an exciting list of names in the anthology. in the Thrid Gallery David Jones is mentioned. Could i ask what selection has been chosen from his work. it's a real shocker to even see him recognized, so i'm not about to fuss what the selection is. just call me curious and an anglo-welsh fan graham ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 12:24:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Reginald Johanson Subject: bland abstract lyrics As a young writer I would like to see some examples of what Ron Silliman sees as "bland abstract lyrics" too. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 15:26:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: millennium table of contents Comments: cc: Jerome Rothenberg In-Reply-To: <199509271850.LAA13585@beaufort.sfu.ca> from "Graham John Sharpe" at Sep 27, 95 11:50:23 am Good question, Graham -- the answer is "none" -- for the 6 pages from _In Parenthesis_ we wanted to include, Faber&Faber asked a permission fee of more than $2000 (two thousanddollars), something quite unacceptable to us. We decided,however, to leave his name in as well the commentary on his work we had written. Jones is indeed one of the most remarkable "British", well, anglo-welsh poets of that period & someone whose work should be known & read much morewidely. -- Pierre > > it is an exciting list of names in the anthology. in the Thrid > Gallery David Jones is mentioned. Could i ask what selection has been > chosen from his work. it's a real shocker to even see him recognized, > so i'm not about to fuss what the selection is. > > just call me curious and an anglo-welsh fan > > graham > ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Poems are sketches for existence." Dept. of English | --Paul Celan SUNY Albany | Albany NY 12222 | "Revisionist plots tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | are everywhere and our pronouns haven't yet email: | drawn up plans for the first coup." joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --J.H. Prynne ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 16:21:56 EST Reply-To: dgolumbia@iddis.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Golumbia Subject: Re: bland abstract lyrics, or you've got wheat in your eye All I remember Ron S. saying was that he wondered how we got from SPRING & ALL to "bland, one-page, abstract lyrics." It wasn't clear to me that he meant orthodox or anti-orthodox, young or old, etc. But I took the "bland" as the principal indictment, guessing that he didn't mean to suggest that, say, Coolidge or Scalapino abstract one-pagers were (are) worthless. I'm anxious to hear Ron's response to all this -- I wonder if he's just letting this all go on to see where it goes. I'm just as interested to know about Barret Watten's recent "ambivalence" toward poetry, if Ron feels like filling us in. -- dgolumbia@iddis.com David Golumbia ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 16:40:41 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gale Nelson Subject: Re: bland abstract lyrics, or you've got wheat in your eye In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 27 Sep 1995 10:01:29 -0400 from I find it an interesting leap for Mark to make that Ron was necessarily referring to younger writers as being those for whom the air was coming out of the lyrical balloon. If we accept the bait, that Ron is casting doubt on a new generation (rather than, say, his casting a wider net of concern over poetry generally), then perhaps a younger generation will have to articulate the multiplicity of designs it has on the future of poetics. Variantly, if Ron's concern is more general, then everyone is welcome to leap in, and contemplate. Question. Where does the younger generation begin? End? What can be said to be holding it together? What could be said to be holding together the previous generation? How do we define the parameters of that generation? Is it useful to generalize (say, poets from city x like to write about boats, whereas those from city b are likely to use gerunds a great deal, and poets who are friends with a tend to disdain representation...). Are movements in poetry fluid or static? Are poets? Gale Nelson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 17:01:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Deguy/Wright/abstract Michel Deguy and Kenneth Koch will read on Thursday October 5 at 8 p.m. at Maison Francaise, New York University. * Anybody read Jay Wright? * I admire the abstract lyric. I have yet to stop reading anything anyone here says not to read. I like certain bland things, they cleanse. Is that transitive? Do I have to give up the blandness of Henry James, or the blandness of William Carlos Williams, or the blandness of Robert Duncan (a wildly interesting bland and abstract poet) to appreciate the blandness of Bruce Andrews I mean badboyness? Mark, I think it will be intensely boring to defend the younger generation. What Ron asked was, how did it happen that the bland abstract (one-page) lyric poem became the norm. It might be better to keep nattering away at how this (alleged) change happened. I blame the blandness of John Ashbery or rather the blandness of the vapor that settles over the reader who tries to follow his seductive jumps. Imitators produce works that mimic his jumps and connections without and I know I'm treading on you (not you Mark, whose work seems ((productively)) closer to John Godfrey's work) both the cerulean and the gunk. But I'm wrong, of course, in something like the way Ron is wrong. Jordan Davis ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 09:32:58 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: MOO Burt K: the word is a portmanteau: " techniqalities " composed on the instant, for "how the hell do you do these things?" that Alan Sondheim mooted. To which by now his reply will be known to all.Best Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 09:46:06 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Rengas and Williams WCW as a rewriter, by juxtaposition is a nice move. How about Ed's critical jaundice re WCW emerging as further rewrite of spring poems quoted by H.T.Kirby-Smith? How shd it look late in 1995, or shd we wait till Spring 1996? Best Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 09:57:03 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: David Jones I'm glad to see D Jones included. I didn't read his writing until the 70's, but remember him vividly as a man who used to come to have tea with the art master at my school, the calligrapher and painter Maurice Percival (towards whom I had ambivalent feelings, since he was on the one hand enthusiastic and encouraging and on the other deeply and conservatively restrictive). So at that time it never occurred to me that David Jones was anything other than of the same kind. Best Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 10:06:12 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Donald Davie south-yorkshire bloody-mindedness is maybe one mode of survival in a culture that bludgeons regularly any but sanctioned positions isn't Boycott altogether milder and more amenable, after all he does still get work as a TV commentator? Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 15:41:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: bland abstract lyrics, or you've got wheat in your eye In-Reply-To: from "Gale Nelson" at Sep 27, 95 04:40:41 pm No, I dont have any experience of a "generation" being "held together". I do have, as others will, companions in poetry, as Blaser puts it, but these include those poets you grew up with close, as I with Fred Wah, or Blaser with Duncan; but these companions (despite what Ed Foster might believe) include long-dead poets too, so that Blaser includes Pindar, and I would if I were not so shy, include Shelley. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 15:52:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: millennium table of contents In-Reply-To: <199509271850.LAA13585@beaufort.sfu.ca> from "Graham John Sharpe" at Sep 27, 95 11:50:23 am Where is it a shock to see David Jones selected? Around here he has been for a long time considered along with Basil Bunting the main news from the UK. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 16:00:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: bland abstract lyrics, or you've got wheat in your eye In-Reply-To: from "Mark Wallace" at Sep 27, 95 10:01:29 am Maybe we can come to Silliman's challenge from what only appears to be thje other side. Ge orge Bowering THE READER & YOU When we were sitting in our rows in high school English class, we were instructed that we should be careful to distinguish between the person who had written the fiction we were reading (usually Katherine Mansfield) and the narrator of that fiction. We were given to understand that this was a matter of the first necessary sophistication, and that from then on we could curl our lip and raise an eyebrow whenever we heard someone say "Katherine Mansfield said in her story . . . ." It has taken me more years than I spent in high school to figure out that the principle involved works in other places as well. Here are two such examples: (1) The distinction between the person who writes a poem, even a short tidy lyric poem, and the voice you hear reciting it while you look at the silent book. That is to say, if you tell me that you re reading Whitman, I know that you are listening to the speaker he made up. People are going to tell me that I am discussing the persona here. But there is a difference between Prufrock and the voice speaking in a Fred Wah poem. Maybe Eliot has two voices between himself and the reader. Anyway, when Whitman wrote that his reader was encountering a man rather than a book, he was protesting against the fate that he knew faced any writer of the first person singular or "ensemble," that as soon as he writes those words on a piece of paper he has an other to read. (2) The distinction between "the reader" and the person who is holding the silent book and reading it. Sometimes I go so far as to say that the "author" and the "reader" are characters in any story. (The implications are interesting if you extend this structure to speeding tickets and marriage certificates.) How often you or I have read something in criticism or theory about "the reader," and realized that this construct is as distinct from us as is Patrick Henry or Spider Robinson. Anyone knows that literature is an idea but reading is what you do. Literature cant hurt you but reading can. (I am of course in my own ant-trap here, because no matter what I do, the "you" I am talking about is not the person reading these words, are you?) So that construct that certain critics like to write about, "the reader," cant do anything about what is written. But if you are reading a book you can intervene. You can invent a reading. You can always skip page 35. You can read from the last page to the first. You can stick pages from a pornographic novel between Northrop Frye's sheets. You can call the narrator of Atwood's second novel Agnes. Or you can intervene simply by reading the way you read. The person who wrote the book cant stop you. The "author" cant, either. And the "reader" doesnt know you exist. A lot of what they call "reflexive" writing is simply the result of the writer trying to be you. You are the ground of the so-called postmodern. ------- Apologies for the (a) length and (c) weird spacing, if yr getting it. GB , ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 19:46:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "SUSAN E. TICHY" Subject: Re: MILLENNIUM TABLE OF CONTENT In-Reply-To: <199509270100.VAA26368@loki.hum.albany.edu> I too am thrilled by the selection, by the project itself. But where, o where, is Mina Loy? My soul deflated considerably when I paged in vain through all the galleries... are her poems to remain as fugitive as her bowery constructions? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 12:09:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: AWOL: October Happenings (State listing) *** Note *** Because of the length of Happenings it has been necessary to split the file. October Happenings has been posted in 2 parts. The first part is the state by state guide to readings, book launches etc, while the second part includes information on competitions and conferences. Depending on the mail reader you are using the post may be further split into smaller sections. Please let me know if this procedure has caused any problems. Mark Roberts *** *** October Happenings A monthly guide to writing events around Australia. AUSTRALIAN WRITING ON LINE PO Box 333 CONCORD NSW 2137 AUSTRALIA email: MRoberts@extro.ucc.su.oz.au Phone: (02) 747 5667 fax (02) 747 2802 AWOL Happenings. A monthly guide to readings, book launches, conferences and other events relating to Australian literature both within Australia and overseas. If you have any item which you would like included in future listings please contact AWOL. AWOL is also setting up a virtual bookshop for Australian small magazines and presses. This will take the form of regular newsletters (which will be available both on the net and by mail and fax) that will pre/review new publications. These titles will then be able to be ordered by mail or fax. Associated with our Virtual Bookshop is our Sydney distribution service for small presses. Please contact us for further details if you want to distribute your publication to bookshops in Sydney. AWOL posts are archived on the WWW at the following address http://www.anatomy.su.oz.au:80/danny/books/AWOL/ then click on Australian Writing OnLine. How to receive AWOL postings Internet All AWOL postings, including the monthly Happenings list, one off posts about special events, the latest literary magazines and small press books, together with information about AWOL's Virtual Bookshop, are available free to subscribers with an internet address. Simply send a post, asking to be added to our mailing list, to MRoberts@extro.ucc.su.oz.au. Mail Each month AWOL will post a hard copy of that month's Happenings list, together with a copy of all special posts, to AWOL subscribers. While we are setting up our Virtual Bookshop there will be a introductory charge of $12.50 (for six months) to cover postage and printing costs (rates will be reviewed early in 1996). Please send cheques, made payable to Rochford Press, to AWOL, PO Box 333, Concord NSW 2137 (overseas rates on application). Fax Subscribers in the 02 telephone area can elect to have the monthly Happenings list and special posts faxed to them for $5.00 for six months. Please send cheques, made payable to Rochford Press to AWOL, PO Box 333, Concord NSW 2137. Subscribers outside the 02 area should contact us for individual fax rates. ******************************************************************************** NSW SYDNEY READINGS BOOK LAUNCHES Every Thursday Writers Anonymous at Tap Gallery level 1 278 Palmer Street Darlinghurst. Details phone/fax 361 0440 Every second Tuesday...POETRY SUPREME 9pm, Eli's Restaurant, 132 Oxford Street, Darlinghurst. Details phone/fax (02) 361 0440 11 October WEA Poetry Writing Workshop. 8 week course with Alan Jefferies. Details ph (02) 264 2781. 21 October 7pm LAVENDER AND SHADOWS. Lesbian Writers read their work, Lilyfield Community Centre 19 Cecily Street Lilyfield. $8 $6 conc. Every Sunday...THE WORD ON SUNDAY 11.30am Museum of Contemporary Art, Circular Quay. 2 Admission $8/ $5.. Details phone (02) 241 5876. Every Thursday...POETRY ALIVE 11am-1pm, Old Courthouse, Bigge Street, Liverpool. Details phone (02) 607 2541. Every Tuesday night THE WALLS HAVE EARS at Little West Cafe 346 Liverpool Street Darlinghurst 8.30 till late. 1st and 3rd Wednesday ...POETS UNION 7pm, The Gallery Cafe, 43 Booth Street, Annandale. Details phone (02) 560 6209. 1st Friday...EASTERN SUBURBS POETRY GROUP 7.30pm, Everleigh Street, Waverly. Details phone (02) 389 3041. 1st Tuesday...ICEBREAKERS GAY POETRY 8pm, 197 Albion Street Surry Hills. $2 includes free coffee. Details phone Noel Tointon (02) 3172257. 2nd & 4th Thursday...FRESH WORDS 7.30pm The Poets Union on Oxford Street, Berkelouw Books, 19 Oxford Street Paddington. Guests and open section. October 12 Tracy Ryan and John Kinsella with new issue of Salt launched by Neil James Phone Anna (02) 365 6217 or 015 704 364 or Nick Sykes (02) 336 6938. 3rd Sunday...POETRY WITH GLEE: THE POETS UNION AT GLEEBOOKS. 2-4pm, 49 Glebe Point Road, Glebe. Admission $5/$2 Details Nick Sykes (02) 928 8607. 4th Monday of each month...FUTURE POETS SOCIETY 8pm, Lapidary Club Room, Gymea Bay Road, Gymea. Details phone Anni Featherstone (02) 528 4736. 4th Wednesday...LIVE POETS AT DON BANKS MUSEUM 7.30pm, 6 Napier Street North Sydney. Guest reader plus open section. Admission $6 includes wine. Details phone Sue Hicks or Danny Gardiner (02) 908 4527. Poets Union / State Library Workshops at the State Library Macquarie Street Sydney 4th Saturday . October 28 John Bennett, November 25 Luke Davies. Poets Union Inc. or The Library Society members $20 per workshop Non-members $25 per workshop. Details phone 230 1500. October 21 austraLYSIS presents the third and final concert in its 1995 concert series at the Sydney Conservatorium of Music, Macquarie Street Sydney 8pm. COMPuting the sounds and VISIONS, in today's improVISATION yesterday'sCOMPosiTIONS, and tomorrow's COMPRoVISATIONS. This concert is titled 'Sighting Sounds: Visual and aural objects intermingle and transmigrate.' Premieres of new work by Steve Adams, austraLYSIS, Colin Bright (El Nino dances), Roger Dean (Electric Tomato), Adrian Luca; and music by Ian Shanahan (Arc of Light). $18 (conc $12). Details ph (02) 523 2732, fax (02) 527 2139. October 26 8pm Writers at the River, Roscoes Riverside Restaurant, Penrith, NSW. 'In the Looking Glass' theme featuring Steven Herrick. Open Section included. Details contact Carl Leddy (047) 21 2087. October 28/29 Writers at the River at the Penrith City Festival - The Wonder of Words Weekend. Saturday 28 October - 10am to noon 'In days of old' master class at Vicarys Winery Woolshed, 1.30 - 3pm 'Muses from hardship' master class at Vicarys Winery Woolshed (master classes conducted by John Derum, Anthony Lawrence, Patricia Gaut and Peter Minter). 6 - 7pm Twilight reading on the banks of the Nepean River including the launch of Anthony Lawrence's new book Cold Wires of Rain (Penguin) at 6.30pm. 7.15 - 10pm 'Inspiration through conviviality' Poets festival dinner Hugo's Restaurant. Sunday October 29. 'Writers on the River' Master classes, readings, lunch and discussion aboard the 'Nepean Belle Paddle Wheeler'. Cost $150. Special accommodation packages are available from a number of local motels. For details about the festival, or the contact numbers of the motels contact Carl Leddy ph/fax (047) 21 2087. OCTOBER AT ARIEL BOOKSELLERS 5 October 6.30pm. Ariel Booksellers present an evening with Patricia Lovell. Lovell, one of Australia's most influential film producers (Gallipoli, Picnic at Hanging Rock), has written a autobiography No Picnic which traces her career in the Australian film industry. RSVP to Ariel on (02) 332 4581. 2 November 7pm. 3 parts Glamour. Gaby Naher (The Underwharf) and Linda Jaivin (Eat Me). A reading and discussion chaired by Justine Ettler (The River Ophelia). Free Ariel Booksellers is at 42 Oxford Street Paddington. Phone (02) 332 4581, fax (02) 360 9398. OCTOBER AT GLEEBOOKS Thursday 5 October 6pm. David Brooks book launch The House of Balthus launched by David Malouf. Free Friday 13 October 6.30pm. Thomas Keneally Homebush Boy - A Year in the Life of Thomas Keneally. $6/4. Monday 23 October 6.30pm. Peter Ackroyd will be reading from his biography of William Blake. $6/4. Tuesday 24 October 6.30pm. Readings by Joseph O'Connor, Matt Condon, Jack Hodgins and Frank Ronan. $6/4. Wednesday 25 October 6.30. Brian Moore will be reading from his book The Statement. $6/4 Gleebooks is at 49 Glebe Point Road Glebe. For details and bookings for all events ph (02) 6602333. NSW WRITERS' CENTRE EVENTS 15 October WRITERS BY THE POOL, Rozelle Balmain Festival 11am at Elkington Park Balmain near the pool. Winners of the NSW Writers Centre/ Village Voice short story competition will be announced and will read their work. Details contact NSWWC 02 555 9757 WOMEN WRITERS' NETWORK 2nd Wednesday. 7.30pm, NSW Writers' Centre. Details Ann Davis (02) 716 6869. FEMINIST & EXPERIMENTAL WRITERS' GROUP meets every second Friday 6.30-9.30pm. Details Margaret Metz (02) 231 8011 or Valerie Williamson for details of venues. INTRODUCTION TO WRITING FOR CD ROM (INTERACTIVITY). 29 October 1995. 10am - 5pm. An introduction to the world of CD ROM for writers with ideas. A stimulating one day session for those interested in developing ideas, interactive games and stories. Course conducted by David Jobling. $55 (members NSWWC) $65 (nonmembers). Limit of 20 places. Bookings and details to NSWWC 02 555 9757 LIFE STORIES: A weekend workshop with Patti Miller. 4 & 5 November 1995. This workshop is for people who want to get started on their life story or the life story of a family member. $65 (members NSWWC & conc) $80 (nonmembers). Bookings and details to NSWWC 02 555 9757. PUBLISHING & EDITING SEMINAR SERIES conducted by Robin Appleton. 7 October - Publisher, author and copyright, 8 October & 14 October -Principles of editing, 15 October - Parts of a book, 21 October - Lists, glossaries, photographs and captions, 22 October - Indexing & proofreading. For cost and bookings contact the NSWWC 02 555 9757. CREATIVE WRITING COURSE with Colleen Burke. 8 weeks beginning 24 October. $80 (members NSWWC $60 NSWWC conc) $100 (nonmembers). Limit 15. Bookings and details to NSWWC 02 555 9757. REGIONAL NSW ARMIDALE 1st Wednesday 7.30pm, Rumours Cafe in the Mall. Details phone James Vicars (067) 73 2103. WOLLONGONG 2nd & 4th Tuesday 7.30pm, Here's Cheers Restaurant, 5 Victoria Street, Wollongong. Details phone Ian Ryan (042) 84 0645. LISMORE 3rd Tuesday 8pm. Stand Up Poets, Lismore Club, Club Lane. Details phone David Hallett (066) 891318. NEWCASTLE / HUNTER VALLEY 3rd Monday... Poetry at the Pub. Northern Star Hotel, 7.30pm Beaumont Street Newcastle Street $2/$1. September features Springwood Poets. Details phone Bill Iden (049) 675 972 MAITLAND Poetry group 4th Friday 7.30, Literary Institute in Banks Street East Maitland. Guest poet Norman Talbot. $2. Details phone Bruce Copping (049) 301497. BLUE MOUNTAINS Friday Nights at Varuna Writers' Centre 7.30pm: Includes tea, coffee & biscuits. $2 buys entry and a lucky door ticket. Varuna Writers' Centre, 141 Casacade Street Katoomba NSW 2780. Details ph Peter Bishop (047) 825 674. 13 - 15 October Blue Mountains Poetry Festival. Varuna Writers Centre and the Poets Union at 141 Cascade Street Katoomba Details ph Peter Bishop (047) 825 674. WAGGA WAGGA Tuesday 10 October 8pm Firenze Restaurant, John Griffin, current Booranga fellowship holder, poet, short story writer, radio scriptwriter from SA, will join (courtesy of the Poets' Union) Peter Kirkpatrick, poet, editor, scholar and Beth Spencer, essayist, poet for a fantastic evening of writers' readings. Open mike opportunities for new work. Admission: $8, $6, $5. 12 October 7.30pm, Booranga Writers' Centre, Charles Sturt University John Griffin (see above) will conduct a workshop on writing for radio. Admission: $12, $10. 29 October 12.30 - 5pm, Booranga Writers' Centre, Charles Sturt University: Margaret McAlister, children's/romance author, will conduct a workshop on writing Romance. Admission: $25, $20. Tuesday 31 October 8.00pm, Firenze Restaurant: Margaret McAlister Reading. Admission: $8, $6,$5. ******************************************************************************** QUEENSLAND Queensland Writers Centre Events EXCITING WRITING: READINGS OF NEW WORKS AT THE QUEENSLAND WRITERS' CENTRE Tuesday 3 October. 7pm. As part of Warana Writers' Week The Queensland Writers' Centre Presents an evening of writing excellence at Grand Orbit, 1 Eagle Street, The Pier, City with Andrew McGahn, Robbie Lappan, Matthew Condon, Fran Ross, Marcus Gibson, Michael Richards (including a preview of his upcoming QTC production ' Christmas at Turkey Beach'). 'Paradise to Paranoia' an anthology featuring many of the featured writers will be launched by Laurie Muller and Marion Halligan. Tickets must be booked before the event. Contact QWC for further details phone (07) 8391243. Saturday 7 October 8.30am Romance Writers of Australia One Day Conference at Lennons Hotel, Queen Street Mall, Brisbane. Speakers include Helen Bianchin, Lu Cairncross, Kath Filmer Davies, Emily French and Meredith Webber. Details phone (07) 3821 1373. NOW AVAILABLE FROM THE QUEENSLAND WRITERS' CENTRE...... HANDBOOK FOR QUEENSLAND WRITERS. Contents include Preparation, Representation, Professional Issues and Development and Funding. Cost $10 plus $1.50 postage for QWC members 0r $15 plus $1.50 for non members. For more information contact the QWC. WARANA WRITERS WEEK 1995 Sunday October 1 - Thursday 5 October. Daily program in the Brisbane Customs House, evening events at various city venues. Interstate visitors include Penelope Nelson, Damien Broderick, Thomas Shapcott, Justine Ettler, Marion Haligan, Nick Enright, Gilian Hanscombe, Victor Kelleher, Ursula Dubosarsky, Patsy Adam-Smith, Rosemary Dobson and Fay Zwicky who will join many Queensland writers of fiction, biography, poetry and drama including Helen Demidenko/Darville, Venero Armanno, Jay Verney, Daynan Brazil, Hugh Lunn, Michael Noonan and Estelle Pinney among others.Highlights include the Awards Dinner in the Customs House on Sunday 1 October where the Steele Rudd Award, the David Unaipon Award, the Premier's Poetry Award, the City of Brisbane Short Story Award and the State Library Young Writers Award will be presented. The Festival program is available from Brisbane libraries, Queensland Writers' Centre, selected newsagents and booksellers, Brisbane City Council Information Centres and the Warana Offices. Or phone the Warana Hotline on (07) 38522468. ****************************************************************************** VICTORIA MELBOURNE Last Friday 6.30pm MELBOURNE POETS Meeting and reading/workshop The Hawthorn Lower Town Hall, 360 Burwood Road, Hawthorn (entry and car parking at rear). 6.30pm meeting begins, 7.30pm reading/ workshop begins. Cost $3 (Members), $5 (non members). Details write to Martin French 1/16 Kent Road Surrey Hills Vic 3127. La Mama Poetica 2nd October La Mama 205 Faraday St Carlton. Jordie Albiston and Diane Fahey who are both being published by Spinifex Press and Warrick Wynne, who is having a collection published by Five Islands Press. We will have our usual format with a discussion forum following the first bracket, so come along with prepared to talk to the poets. 3rd Sunday each month; 2pm Readings at the Eaglemont Bookshop 525 Brunswick St North Fitzroy. These readings apparently have been a little irregular over recent months so contact Shelton Lea ph (03) 4863219 to confirm. 11 October 8pm Black Pepper Authors at Mietta's 7 Alfred Place Melbourne. Black Pepper, a new and exciting press, presents a reading by its 1995 authors: John Anderson, Susan Hancock, Graham Henderson, Nicholas Playford and K F Pearson. $10/$6. Details and bookings ph (03) 9654 2366 fax (03) 9654 2317. 22 October 5pm Victorian Premier's Literary Awards Winners Readings in the Lounge at Mietta's 7 Alfred Place Melbourne. $15. Details and bookings ph (03) 9654 2366 fax (03) 9654 2317. October 13 -15 Dookie Agricultural College Residential Writers' Camp Number 7. Feel like a spring holiday in the country? Need some stimulation, some instruction, some time to write? Here's an opportunity to stretch your legs and your mind. Join 70 to 100 others in a glorious setting for two and half days of workshops with 8 of Australia's best writers: Glenda Adams (NSW) novel (this class is full), Chris Mansell (NSW) poetry,, Kim Scott (WA) Fiction, Peter Rose (Vic) poetry, Kerry Greenwood (Vic) crime, historical fiction, research, Meredith Costain (Vic) children, Tony Watts (Vic) stage & screen and Antoni Jach (Vic) fiction. Each class is limited to 12 people and are run as 2 45 minute workshops. There is also plenty of time to mingle and meet other people who share your interest, from new to published writers. Cost $175 ($160 conc) covers accommodation, meals and workshops. Details ph Kristin Henry (03) 95317331 or Sherryl Clarke (03) 93141082 1995 MELBOURNE WRITERS' FESTIVAL October 16 to 22 1995 will see the ninth annual Melbourne Writers' Festival - an extraordinary celebration of books, writing, literature and contemporary issues. Last year, close to 20,000 readers and book buyers mingled with over 100 Australian and international writers in a series of interviews, panel discussions, debates and readings. This October will undoubtedly see an even greater explosion of frenzied literary Activity. The Melbourne Writers' Festival presents 7 days of literary activities designed to showcase the art and talent of the writer and to enhance the pleasure of the reader. This year's overseas guests include: Peter Ackroyd, John Berendt, Shobna De, Lauris Edmond, Gunnar Harding, Jack Hodgins, Carsten Jensen, Ryszard Kapuscinski, Sara Maitland, Brian Moore, Joseph O'Connor, Frank Ronan, Danton Remoto, Ruth Rendell, Theo Richmond, Tom Robbins and Bjorg Vik. Australian literature will be well represented by Paul Davies, David Malouf, Frank Moorhouse, Helen Garner, Elizabeth Jolley, Jack Hibberd, Susan Varga, Henry Reynolds, Chris Wallace-Crabbe, Robert G Barnett, Kate Grenville, Jim Davidson, David Brooks, Philip Hodgins, Graham Little, John Romeril, Amanda Lohrey, Alex Castles and Andrew McGahan amongst many, many other. There will be writers in conversation, on panels and in forums. There will also be the chance to hear in depth interviews with individual writers and to listen to a wide and varied program of readings. The festival will feature a special tribute to Elizabeth Jolley, as well as a special event for school age readers and a host of exciting umbrella events. Subjects covered by panels at the festival range from the creative moment to the internet, from the turn of the millennium to the killing of history and from reading to travel. Other subjects, such as decadence, crime writing, ethics and writing about film are also covered in the program. For further details contact Julie Morgan ph (03) 9696 5060, fax (03) 9696 5866. WESTERN AUSTRALIA DISK READINGS are held on the Third Tuesday of each month at Pockets Cocktail Lounge 44 Lark Street Northbridge. The October reading will be a special 10th Anniversary reading and will feature Philip Salom, Marion Campbell, Fay Zwicky, Kim Scott, Penelope Brown and Ross Bennett. Admission is free. Details Mike Shuttleworth ph. (09) 4304991. ** ** ** The Katherine Susannah Prichard Writer's Centre, at 11 Old York Rd Greenmount, is perched on the side of the Darling Range, looking towards the towers of Perth and the setting sun. It is surrounded by National Park and the developing suburbs of the Hills district. The place is small and friendly and the kettle is nearly always on the boil. The Centre holds readings on the first Sunday of the month at 7.30pm. Three invited readers are featured. Cost is $5/$4 and includes light refreshments. Faye Davis is currently writer-in-community working on a project called 'Writing in the Hills' Changes'. She is running moderately priced ($3.50 a session) workshops in the district, and is available for consultation at the house by appointment. (this project is supported by the Australia Council). The house itself, former home of Katherine Susannah Prichard, is heritage listed and tours cost $5. Wednesday and Sunday are tour days. Ring first to book. A small writer's studio, once used by Katherine, is now used by writers-in-residence. The KSP Foundation, the Centre's management body, is currently investigating the possibility of letting the Studio on a short term basis to writers from the city, country and/or interstate. Ring Rob Finlayson, the co-ordinator, on Thursdays, between 10.30am and 5.30pm (09) 294 1872., to chat about writing and writers, and to find out what's happening in the Hills of Perth and the sunburnt city at their feet. At other times ring the Chairperson, Rose van Scon (09) 293 3863. ******************************************************************************** TASMANIA Wednesday 4 October there'll be a Tasmanian Writers' Union (TWU) reading at the Bavarian Tavern 28 Liverpool Street Hobart at 7.30 pm. featuring readers from the Tasmanian Poetry Festival: Matt Simpson (U.K.), Jenny Boult (Tas), Rudi Krausmann (NSW), Anthony Lawrence and Chris Mansell (NSW). Cost $8/$5 conc. Details phone TWU (002) 240029. Thursday 5 October, 5.30pm. Joint Reading/Book launch. Anthony Lawrence Cold Wires of Rain (Penguin) & Rudi Krausmann Made in Australia (an anthology of 80 Australian poets with German translations). At Hobart Bookshop 29 Criterion Street Hobart. Details ph (002) 349654. Wednesday 25 October 6pm. The Tasmanian Writers Union, Hobart Bookshop and Harper Collins publishers invite you to hear Jenna Mead launch Amanda Lohrey's new novel Camille's Bread. At the Hobart Bookshop, Criterion Street Hobart. Details ph (002) 349654. Rosny College in association with the Tasmanian writers union resents a reading by writers workshop students on Thursday 5 October at 7pm at the Salamanders' Food Fair and Cafe. 55 Salamanca Place Hobart. Details ph Christine Bostock on (002) 449242. Doris Leadbetter will be TWU Writer in Residence during October. She will be working with mature women especially in rural and isolated communities. She will be at the Tasmanian Poetry Festival from 29 September to 1 October. Then: 2 - 10 October Northwest coast, 11 - 15 October East coast, 17 - 22 October Flinders Island and 23 - 31 October Hobart, Cygnet and Huon. There will also be a Sunday lunch for women with her at the Bellerive Community Arts Centre on 29 October $15 includes drinks. For details on the lunch contact Marjorie Luck or Fiona Cooke at TWU (002) 240029. For details on the rest of Doris' tour contact Marjorie (ph 002 442 592 wk or 002 344384 home) or Glynis Donnelly (ph 004 245497). The Tasmanian Poetry Festival takes place at Launceston from 29th September to 1st October Readers include Matt Simpson (UK), John Harding, Chris Mansell, Dennis Kevans, JS Harry, Dipti Saravanamuttu, June Perjins, Marilyn Arnold, Jenny Boult, Bruce Penn and Tim Thorne. Also open readings, young writers' reading, bookstall and the famous Launceston Poetry Cup - Australia's oldest and most prestigious performance poetry competition - on Saturday night 30 September at the Launceston Novotel. Further information from the director, Tim Thorne, on (003) 319658 (phone/fax) or from PO Box 345 Launceston Tas. 7250. *** end of part 1 *** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 12:12:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: AWOL: October Happenings (Part 2 Conferences) *** Part 2 begins *** COMPETITIONS 6 OCTOBER SHIRE OF MITCHELL SHORT STORY COMPETITION This competition offers prizes in open, teenage and junior categories. Details contact library staff ph (057) 92 1861 0r (057) 843357. 16 OCTOBER HQ/DYMOCKS SHORT STORY CONTEST A contest for unpublished writers, for a story less than 3,500 words that has never been published. First prize of $5,000 plus publication in HQ magazine. 6 runners up will receive a $50 Dymocks book token and a fountain pen. Entry forms in Sept/October issue of HQ. Details ph Sarah Burns (02) 282 8267. 20 OCTOBER: MELBOURNE POETS NATIONAL POETRY COMPETITION Prizes to the value of $500. Judged by Judith Rodriguez. $3.00 entry fee. Entries to 'The Melbourne Poets National Poetry Competition', c/ Martin French, 1/16 Kent Road, Surrey Hills, Victoria 3127. Poems should be previously unpublished, they can be on any theme, they should be typed, no longer than 20 lines and should be accompanied by a cheque or money order of $3 per poem. There is no limit to the number of entries any individual can make. Each poem should be accompanied by an entry form (contact organisers). The poet's name should not appear on the page with the poem. For further details contact Melbourne Poets at the above address. 27 OCTOBER: THE 1996 MARTEN BEQUEST TRAVELLING SCHOLARSHIPS. Entries are now being accepted for a travelling scholarship valued at $15,000 to be awarded in each of the following fields: acting, instrumental music, painting, poetry, prose and singing. All applicants must have been born in Australia, be between 21 and 35 at the time of application. Entry forms available from Aimee Said, Arts Management, 180 Goulburn Street, Darlinghurst NSW 2010 ph (02) 283 2066. 30 OCTOBER ULITARRA SHORT STORY COMPETITION. For details on this competition contact Ulitarra magazine at PO Box 392 French's Forest NSW 2086. ******************************************************************************** CONFERENCES EUROPEAN ASSOCIATION FOR STUDIES ON AUSTRALIA Third conference: Copenhagen, October 6-9, 1995 Conference theme: Inhabiting Australia: The Australian Habitat and Australian Settlement. The conference aims to bring together contributions from a wide range of disciplines, from architecture to zoology. Papers which take up the theme from cultural, historical, social, scientific, literary and other perspectives are invited. Further information available from * Bruce Clunies Ross (45) 35 32 85 82 internet: bcross@engelsk.ku.dk * Martin Leer (45) 35 32 85 87 internet: leer@engelsk.ku.dk * Merete Borch (45) 35 32 85 84 internet: borch@engelsk.ku.dk Copenhagen University, Department of English Njalsgade 80, DK-2300 Kobenhavn S Phone. (45) 35 32 86 00 Fax (45) 35 32 86 15 AUSTRALIAN WOMEN WRITERS: A SEMINAR The State Library of NSW, Metcalfe Auditorium Saturday October 7 1995. Sessions include: Introduction by Professor Elizabeth Webby, 'Rooms and Money of their own: Journalism in the Careers of some women artists and writers by A/Professor Susan Sheridan, 'The government stroke - Another look at the Miles Franklin Award' by A/Professor Jill Roe, 'Collaborative Writing: Dymphna Cusack, Miles Franklin and Florence James' by Debra Adelaide and 'The difficulty of getting published' a panel discussion featuring Ruby Lanford Ginibi, Amy Witting, Valerie and Kate Grenville. Admission $30 (members of the Library Society), $35 (non members), $10 (full time students). Prepayment is essential. Details ph (02) 230 1500. SYMPOSIUM: (POST) COLONIAL FICTIONS: RE-READING ELIZA FRASER AND THE WRECK OF THE STIRLING CASTLE. University of Adelaide, 25-26 Nov., 1995. Contact: Kay Schaffer, Department of Women's Studies, 08 303 5267 direct, 08 303 3345 FAX, e-mail: kschaffe@arts.adelaide.edu.au Post-colonial studies within Australia have attempted to re-evaluate and re- write colonial history to include those people either marginalised or subjugated by the colonial process. This two day symposium will explore a different aspect of post-colonial discourse through the exploration of one of the best known events in Australian colonial history. In 1836 the 'Stirling Castle' was wrecked off the Queensland coast and many of the crew together with the Captain's wife, Eliza, were marooned on Fraser Island. Events surrounding the rescue of the castaways, in particular Mrs. Fraser, received international media attention. In the last 160 years the story of Eliza Fraser has become the subject of popular myth, fiction, opera, art, film and scholarly research in the areas of cultural studies, literature, history, anthropology, archaeology, women's studies, and the visual arts. (Post) Colonial Fictions will examine critically the Eliza Fraser saga by bringing together, for the first time, an interdisciplinary team of academics, authors, artists and members of the Fraser Island community. Discussions will include feminist analyses of the incident, textual and iconographic representations of Aboriginal people, and Eliza Fraser as a creative inspiration for the arts. Speakers on 19th century ethnography, visual arts, and Fraser Island history include: Ian Mc Niven, Lynette Russell, Rod McNeil, Olga Miller, Elaine Brown; on 20th century cultural studies and Batdjala representations include: Kay Schaffer, Sue Kossew, Jim Davidson, Jude Adams and Fiona Foley. We are hopeful that the symposium will include an exhibition of Fiona Foley's works and a performance by University of Adelaide Conservatorium of Music students of the theatre opera: "Eliza Fraser Sings" (arranged by Peter Sculthorpe/libretto by Barbara Blackman). AUSTRALIAN STUDIES AND THE SHRINKING PERIPHERY: SURFING THE NET FOR AUSTRALIA. The Centre for Australian Studies in Wales, University of Wales, Lampeter, are hosting this conference next year. Organisers are calling for papers. "In recent years the consolidation of Europe into the 15 states of the EU, the integration of east and west within Europe, and the progressive turning of Australia to its own Pacific backyard have furthered the impression of periphery: one world's edge looking distantly at the other." The contacts are: Dr Graham Sumner and Dr Andrew Hassam Centre for Australian Studies in Wales University of Wales Lampeter Dyfed, SA48 7ED, Wales, UK. Telephone: Graham Sumner +44 (0) 1570 424760 or 424790 (secretary) Fax: +44 (0) 1570 424714 Andrew Hassam +44 (0) 1570 424764 (secretary) Fax +44 (0) 1570 423634 E-mail: sumner@lamp.ac.uk or alh@www.lamp.ac.uk Offers of papers should reach the organisers by 31 December 1995, and comprise a full title and an abstract of no more than 100 words. Further information will be sent when available, and will appear on the Centre's WWW home-page (htp://www.lamp.ac.uk/oz). INTERNATIONAL P.E.N. 62nd WORLD CONGRESS 26 October - 1 November, 1995 at the Esplanade Hotel, Fremantle, W.A. This Congress will be one of the most important literary and cultural events ever staged in Australia. The Congress will seek to explore the issue of freedom of speech in relation to different cultural contexts. It will also include literary readings, discussions and performances of Aboriginal culture, an International Quiz Night, a Hypothetical and many events designed to be fun! Speakers will include Ronald Harwood (England), Goenawan Mohamad (Indonesia), Keki Daruwalla (India), George Aditjondro (Indonesia), Satendra Nandan (Australia-Fiji), Samina Yasmeen (Australia-Pakistan), Beth Yahp (Australia-Malaysia), Andrey Voznesensky (Russia), Ilsa Sharp (Australia-Singapore), Sally Morgan and Jill Milroy, Elizabeth Jolley, Judith Rodriguez, Tom Shapcott, and many more. The Congress is open to anyone interested in literature and culture, and in the issue of Freedom of Speech. For the full program and other details, please contact Promaco Conventions, Ph. 09. 364.8311, Fax 09.316.1453; or your local PEN Centre, or the Perth PEN Centre, PO. Box 1131 Subiaco, Australia 6008, Ph. & Fax: 09.381.8306. Expressions of interest in membership of PEN are also warmly welcomed, and should be addressed to the PEN Centre. PEN works for freedom of speech and on behalf of writers in prison. THE WHOLE VOICE 2nd National Conference on Poetry, 3-5 November 1995 University of Sydney The Whole Voice Poetry Conference aims to bring together those with an active interest in and involvement with poetry in Australia. The conference is a national one and is a follow-up to "The Space of Poetry" conference held at Melbourne University in 1993. It is being jointly organised by the University of Sydney and the Poets' Union. The 1995 conference will include poetry readings and papers from poets, editors, academics and publishers. Poets reading include Judith Beveridge, Laurie Duggan, Susan Hampton, J.S. Harry, Jill Jones, Donna McSkimming, Jan Owen, Geoff Page, Margaret Scott, Andrew Taylor, and Richard Tipping. Paper-givers include Peter Steele, Susan Hawthorne, Rosemary Huisman, Christopher Kelen, Jeri Kroll, Martin Langford, and Max Richards. Richard Allen and Karen Pearlman will present a performance of dance and poetry on Friday evening and Richard Tipping, will co-ordinate a display of visual poetry. These two events will present other views of the idea of "voice" in poetry. There will also be time for open readings and discussion. "The Whole Voice" theme was glossed as : "a poetry that speaks as fully as possible, that allows the repressed to speak, that doesn't reject or diminish emotion, intellect or craft." The organisers expect this position to generate debate and creative argument, as the idea of "voice" is contentious. "The practising writer's idea of voice is an intimate friend," comments a poet. "Voice is a literary construction, with all the historical contingency which that implies," writes an academic. The very understanding of "voice" is basic to dialogue between all participants. Date: 3rd to 5th November 1995 Venue: Woolley Building, University of Sydney Cost: Early Registration (by 22Sept): $80; Full Registration $90 (Student/Unwaged: $45). Day Full Registration ($50, Day Student $25). Registration includes Friday evening reception, am and pm teas, Sunday morning coffee. Contact: Rosemary Huisman, Dept English A20, Uni of Sydney NSW 2006. Ph: (02) 351 2821. Fax: (02) 351 2434. e-mail: Rosemary.Huisman@english.su.edu.au. Jill Jones. Ph: (02) 818 5349. e-mail: jillj@ozemail.com.au Martin Langford. Ph: (02) 482 7110 THE IRISH CENTRE FOR AUSTRALIAN STUDIES: AUSTRALIAN STUDIES CONFERENCE The Irish Centre for Australian Studies will be holding an Australian Studies Conference in Dublin from 3-6 July 1996. The three major streams will be history, culture and the environment. For further details contact David Day Professor of Australian History Department of Modern History University College Dublin Ireland. ******************************************************************************** While AWOL makes every effort to ensure the accuracy of Happenings listing we suggest you confirm dates, times and venue. AWOL would like to thank the following organisation who provided information for this list: NSW Writers Centre, Queensland Writers Centre, Tasmanian Writers' Union, AusLit discussion group (internet), FAW WWW LINK (http://www.ozemail.com.au:80/~faw/) and the other individuals and organisations who supplied information about their events directly to AWOL. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 20:35:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: bland abstract lyrics, or you've got wheat in your eye >Jorge wrote: >Thank you, Mark, for bringing this [bland abstract lyrics] up. >Since I would very much like to learn from the old avant guardists >I would need some ***concrete*** examples of bland abstract lyrics so as >to avoid them and of nonbland nonabstract lyrics so as to emulate them. From what has been said here, this might apply to the renga But it's not clear that they would be seen as bland or nonbland. Another curious non-occurance is that on a POETICS list there has been little or no comment on the poetics and process of the renga.>On Wed, 27 Sep 1995, Mark Wallace wrote: >> Ron Silliman's side comment, a few days ago, that "bland >>abstract yrics" are now the dominant strain of avant garde writing >>.... The silence attending his remark...is disturbing. Do the >>younger avant garde writers on this list accept Ron's >>characterization? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 22:53:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Donald Davie Nice to hear all the words about Donald Davie. He was, when I was an undergraduate at Stanford (mid-70's), the most influential teacher I had. I generally found him warm and kind, rather than difficult and self-destructive, although I agree with Marjorie that it seemed as if he became more difficult later. He taught me to hear poetry in a way no one had (nor has since), as he had an ear which could encompass the music of Pound and that of Tennyson (at his best, in some poems in the middle of In Memoriam). He gave me an abiding love of the works and spirit of Christopher Smart. Those may sound to some here like small gifts, but they weren't, because they were, in part, a permission to hear and think idiosyncratically, and with mind, ear, and heart. He also was the first to lead me to read Edward Dorn, who in turn led me to Duncan, Olson, and Creeley, and indirectly to much of my work since. I rather think he didn't approve of places I eventually got to in reading and writing, but I know that in a way he helped me get there. He certainly had his blind spots, and some found him arrogant, but mostly I found him challenging in a rather fine way. He gave quite a lot of himself to students who were curious. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 23:11:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: newpoets My new neighbor Jeff Hansen (next town over) correctly puts up against Ron Silliman's "bland abstract lyric" charge poets such as Juliana Spahr and others. I might add Gary Sullivan, Myung Mi Kim, and more. But Jeff also seems to pit, against "bland abstract lyric," "the wild blue yonder school of poetic innovation." While I don't share the implicit distrust of "the new" which Jeff manifests here, I also like to think that there's lots of room for liveliness within forms and practices which have been around awhile or which may be rather quietly innovative and which may not quite merit "wild blue yonder" status. Is bland vs. wild blue really the dichotomy we see? Aren't there lots of other choices? Doesn't ear still count for a lot in making even the most abstract lyrical work rise above blandness? Nice to hear/read/see you here, Jeff. charles ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 09:17:32 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden <74277.1477@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Golding/Bernstein/APR Last week, Alan Golding wrote: Burt K. mentioned Hank's APR essay. I actually think APR has always been a bit more eclectic than it's given credit for, but its eclecticism has less the quality of a commitment to multiple writing practices, more the quality of the startled twitch that one gives when one is suddenly woken up. ("Oops, looks like we'd better pay attention to this, even if we are 15 or 20 years late.") To put this another way, it's not yet clear to me that we're seeing, in APR, more than a kind of belated tokenism attached to one of the big names of LP. Charles is acutely attuned to these institutional/literary-sociological issues, it seems to me. I don't agree, then, Burt, that APR has published work of his in a traditionally APR mode. The poems they've carried are, in my reading, progressively more blatant gestures of resistance to and satires on that mode. If the editors don't get it after publishing the last one, "Memories," then I feel sorry for them. (And if they've already gotten it and aren't letting on, then good for them.) The real test for APR will be to see if they start publishing lesser-known or under-published "experimental" writers, as they do with their flush-left-first-persons. --AG doesn't mention that a chapter in his book _From Outlaw to Classic_ (U of Wisconsin, 1995), deals with this very subject in some depth--Bernstein, APR, and the subversive nature of his appearances there. (Chapter 5, "Provisionally complicit resistance"). Good stuff-- Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 21:33:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: things & stuff In-Reply-To: <199509280401.VAA25574@sparta.SJSU.EDU> 1) As an old and still/continually emerging poet, I wonder at this tendency to equate -- new=emerging=young I know for a fact that I am not the only old poet writing new poems that are in no books -- similarly, I know many young poets writing old poems,,, and new poets who don't emerge at all -- but I'm always willing to listen to good old fashioned intergenerational grousing -- it stirs my soul Hey Mark -- you can be in my generation if I can be in yours 2) Many years ago I asked Donald Davie to autograph a book of his poems for me (the one about the Shires) -- As he wrote his name, he said, "This is very generous of you." 3) I read Jay Wright -- so does Carole Doreski -- & I'd bet there are others of us on the list -- assume you know Vera Kutzinski's book _Against the American Grain_ -- look it up if you haven't already seen it -- she looks at Williams, Wright and Guillen -- (to my mind she makes Guillen more interesting than his poems -- that's N. Guillen, not J. Guillen) -- Special issue of _Callalloo some years back had lots of good Wright stuff in it. 4) The distorted conception of the clam A concentrated scene of panic Then calm as the sea slips Out of the poem and sand Clumps together at line's end (banal abstract lyric) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 21:43:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: jay wright Jordan Davis asked: >Anybody read Jay Wright? > and this isn't much of an answer: kind of in the: read him? I haven't even taught him yet! vein. That is: I've taught Wright's poetry a few times at the undergrad level, but don't feel I have a very adept sense of what he does, though I know the Kutzinski stuff on him which I think is good. It's interesting, I think, to speculate on why Bloom and Hollander are such big champions of his work--some of the later stuff is ahem "visionary" ahem but lacks the tonal mobility and fugitive irony I'd associate w the work of a lot of the poets on this list. Alan (Godling?) are you out there today? You probably read and teach Wright, no? Tenney ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 02:31:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: B=A=N=A=L vs. metabolic acidosis Caterwauling is the conclusion that the answer could've continued carrying on about, and so, just remeber (as Nickolas K. Piombino once said): "The writing on the wall is off the wall." I used to be banal but I gave it up for MindScience(TM)-- the petals of the wheels branching out into the whole *nervous * system-- Mark, silence cld also be taken as tacet disagreement. So the guy says to the bartender he says he says look, it seems to me the "banal-phenomenon" (soon to enter the O.E.D.) cld be explained by the increasingly multiplicitous influences younger writers are availing themselves in (of). Yes, not so younger writers did that & do that, but the social circumstances were quite different. We have l.p. & New american influences increasingly entering a workshop environment -- what gets cranked out the other end cld often be characterized as "banal" -- however the best of them just ain't. Liz Willis' new book is good, very, many are trying to hit registers she succeeds in hitting. & if she's too somethingorother for your taste take a look at what I think is the best new mag in quite awhile, _Proliferation_, shows there are some *extremely* smart cookies (& muffins) just getting started, however the economic situation they're confronting works against them, big time. Do you know Rodrigo Toscano's work, Ron? Not too much out there yet but he has one Sun & Moon book coming & I've seen ms. of another. Someone working convincingly at energetic length. I've often wondered if the serial poem is the defining poetic of the late 80s early 90s, more than the lyric. May have to do with publishing opportunities. "Well, I can afford a chapbook. . ." The failure of intellect might well be ours. Does a computer not also have a mind? Don't you think the spectator's role is important? What about all these gluey wind-up 'limitless & unbounded' afterimages on my check stubs? Baffled about sporadic clucking? It goes in one eye and out the other. send DMT but not C.O.D., --Rod ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 23:40:00 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: Sheila, Chris & Jorge's Excellent Adventure >R! = C!S!J! = (X - >>>>) where X is a variable ranging from excellent to >outasight > > "books were closed, dreams were cancelled, the inverted >poplar was set > right, the cardinal was killed" > > St.John Terse, "Ananas" > > >ripe for macroscopes to pump or slice or butterfly away from that ardent bugged heliotrope and pledge allegiance through ostension--we stopped short of the shortstop stigmata this time pencilled in as tangly wisps instead of memory detonations: but don't forget to dismember the doloroso I left in the rain by mistake whilst on business vocation hollering newmown platitudes to headsets painted blue and waffle colored earth colored fire colored i have this thing against water colored therefore elemental-painted playthings cost a dear shined copper looking for false grit and the dogma of autonomous syntax overwhelmed them when striking from base-camp their paraffin tongues in the cauldron of sylvia's morning during the time that ted was devising a way to narrate implied memory for newly-learned novel objects ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 10:04:11 GMT0BST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Larkin Organization: UNIVERSITY OF WARWICK LIBRARY Subject: David Jones I was delighted to see the topic of David Jones crop up as I've been spending a lot of this year (his centenary) thinking about him. A couple of weeks ago Alan Halsey (of the Poetry bookshop Hay on Wye) and I gave a joint paper on Jones as illustrator of The Ancient Mariner and we could see the impact Jones was making on an audience relatively unfamiliar with him. Members of this list might like to know that a collection of essays based on a conference held here at Warwick last April (I was one of the contributors) is due out sometime next year, edited by Paul Hills. There was also a conference at Lampeter last weekend, to which I didn't go, but something might well emerge from that. Seren Books have two new books on DJ due, and two exhibitions (one in London, one touring) will be opening in a matter of weeks. I can supply further details to anyone who might be interested. It's a good time just now to be interested in DJ and he seems no longer the property of a narrow circle of admirers. And at a time when the poetics and politics of "innovation" seem to be faltering it may be timely to look again at some of his diagnoses of the predicament of modern culture. What are the parts (which must be kept from going sour) to which revision as a solo mission doesn't reach? If he failed to appreciate, or greatly mourned that culture has to be about forgetting, he teaches us how to recognise the fragments that work up through that process in unfamiliar patterns which reoriginate attachment. Peter Larkin Philosophy & Literature Librarian University of Warwick Library,Coventry CV4 7AL UK Tel:01203 524475 Fax: 01203 524211 Email: Lyaaz@Libris.Lib.Warwick.ac.uk ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 06:37:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: MILLENNIUM TABLE OF CONTENT In-Reply-To: from "SUSAN E. TICHY" at Sep 27, 95 07:46:06 pm Susan writes: > > I too am thrilled by the selection, by the project itself. But where, o > where, is Mina Loy? My soul deflated considerably when I paged in vain > through all the galleries... are her poems to remain as fugitive as her > bowery constructions? > Look again: Mina Loy is in the first Gallery with a 5-page selection. In the book that's pages 136-140 ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Poems are sketches for existence." Dept. of English | --Paul Celan SUNY Albany | Albany NY 12222 | "Revisionist plots tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | are everywhere and our pronouns haven't yet email: | drawn up plans for the first coup." joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --J.H. Prynne ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 08:41:04 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark McMorris Subject: Re: bland abstract lyrics Yet another act of delurking (=lug rude kin): 1) Bland of course is in the eye of the beholder, but I suppose one means poetry that is monotonous, unmodulated *and* unaccented, clever rather than perceptive, perceptive rather than selective, meandering rather than directed, vague, hubristic, histrionic, picture-postcard dull--in short, metrically and procedurally commonplace. A few queries: is the abstract bland? Can there be a non-bland abstract (there can be a non-abstract bland, as we know)? By abstract are we to understand a bad case of conceptual manipulation a la late Stevens (without his ear or eye--or brain, for that matter)? Is The Triumph of Life bland? Abstract? (Yes on both?) Is Stein's Tender Buttons abstract (I assume it's not bland)? Is Cesaire's Ferraments abstract? (No) Is it conceptual? (Yes) Lisible? (no) Scriptible? (yes) Moving? 2) I know that procedural ingenuity or formal obliquity has produced most of the interesting (to me) poetry in the US in the last 50 years, but if I am to make any sense at all, I must also say that the very same poets who opened up and kept open the still lively and living (a pesky romantic metaphor) forms of poetry around today themselves could be world-class bores. Being dull seems to be an occupational hazard of innovative writers--am I quoting here?--who venture into areas to invent them and on happy occasions (e.g, A-12, Prelude) are able release poetry, on other occasions (e.g., A-12, Prelude) fail miserably to make anything happen that hasn't already happened elsewhere to greater effect (in conversations with Celia or Paul, for instance, to which I am not privy). Who can read Paterson through without a shudder of dismay? Williams and Zukofsky were onto something that became important for US poetry in the years after them and one might well tolerate the bland in "A" in order to arrive at the sense of design in small matters as well as in large that Zukofsky undoubtedly (to me) managed to build in. What does this have to do with poets writing now? I suppose I'm trying sneakily to suggest that in a survey of any today one must expect a certain amount of the bland, but that it would be very unlikely if the Americas in 1995 were uniformly anything, let alone bland. Let's say that an attention to syntax and decontextualized, rigorously anti-mimetic linguistic subversion/resistance characterized the underground now overground practice of the recent US avant-garde. Younger poets writing now, some say the emerging poets, would I think both profit from this massive exploration of poetry as unwarrantable language given a welcome charge of distinct audibility, and want to refuse it in specific ways and parts, just as a reader might wish Zukofsky had cut some of the beginning of A-12 for poetry's sake (I hope that expressing such a wish in order to make a point does not mark me as narrow-minded or condescending--I admire Z and find his poetics both meaningful to my efforts and succinctly comprehensive). Such a refusal might well produce boring poetry if it takes place in a vacuum of further ideas, but imitating somebody else's practice certainly would (and does) produce boredom all round. It also seems to me that bland lyrics is a fairly good description of the bulk of poetry of any period (including American poetry since the war). 3) By concealing artifice, Williams' respected example has helped to excuse the general neglect of rhythmic design--in the phrase, line, paragraph, and work--in contemporary American avant-garde poetry (but see At Passages, et al.), and therefore, together with Moore and Pound, can be blamed for the later standardization of voice at the expense of arrangement, perception at the expense of rhythm, which absolutely guarantees bland poetry. Recent comments against Williams on this list seem to want to shoot the messenger of an American voice--one seemingly without art--now that Williams has been so clearly exposed as the "thoughtless" message in much contemporary writing. This is unfair. Taking a different direction, I would say that the fault lies not with the doctor but with the glut of words masquerading as idea in the discourse on poetry and on literature generally, or with the loss of -- an energizing loss, looked at in a certain way -- generic boundaries. Does the word poetry name anything apart from a context of presentaion? Tell me that the answer is YES. If I am a poet, I must suppose that I am not writing a context of presentation but a poem. How can I know that this is so? Circles make me dizzy. Here again, the doctor of Paterson must take some of the responsibility for at once opening up a wider terrain of poetry and, one might say, thinning it out and confusing the workers. I could (as you could) write a list of fairly recent books that work excellently from the former without succumbing to the latter, but still areas in Paterson (or Maximus) usefully diagnose the disagreeable vague monotony some object to in poetry today. The trick, I suppose, is to take the good and to leave the bad and the ugly... 4) But then again, ... (following up on Gale's remarks) are there any monoliths? states? who gets to count as the younger generation? I can never shake the feeling that all talk of generations, schools, movements in the US will remain premature because of the sheer size of the educated population. And that maybe what one could call a systematic synechdochic substitution complex--a few people for a whole continent--prompts me to continue talking about (non-)entities like the state of contemporary poetry in the US. Oh well. Regards, Mark McMorris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 09:12:26 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "H. T. KIRBY-SMITH" Organization: University of NC at Greensboro Subject: Donald Davie I guess the closest I came to Donald Davie was Alan Shapiro, who was a colleague for some years; Davie claimed that before publishing any poem he first showed it to someone who was older than he was and someone who was younger, and that the younger person was Shapiro. It seemed to me that Davie was following some sort of reactionary spoor in the United States. He wrote admiringly of Yvor Winters, and then went to Stanford; then he went to Vanderbilt where I suppose there was still a lingering odor of the Fugitives, who in their reincarnation as Agrarians were --well, let's say, as Jeffersonian as Pound. Donald Davidson, and I mean Davidson, the Fugitive and the Agrarian of the 1920s and 30s who went on living for decades--was such a fascist that when admiring his poems one has that awful feeling as if one were admiring Hitler's water colors. None of this is applicable to Davie, of course, but his American wanderings had a very odd pattern to them. I was very put off by a piece that Davie wrote about Larkin some ten years or so ago, in which he found fault with Larkin for not being a romantic. It seemed to me it was like faulting Eeyore for not being Winnie-the-Pooh. Tom Kirby-Smith ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 11:09:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "SUSAN E. TICHY" Subject: Re: MILLENNIUM TABLE OF CONTENT In-Reply-To: <199509281037.GAA27243@loki.hum.albany.edu> On Thu, 28 Sep 1995, Pierre Joris wrote: > Susan writes: > > > > I too am thrilled by the selection, by the project itself. But where, o > > where, is Mina Loy? My soul deflated considerably when I paged in vain > > through all the galleries... are her poems to remain as fugitive as her > > bowery constructions? > > > > Look again: Mina Loy is in the first Gallery with a 5-page selection. > In the book that's pages 136-140 > > ======================================================================= > Pierre Joris | "Poems are sketches for existence." > Dept. of English | --Paul Celan > SUNY Albany | > Albany NY 12222 | "Revisionist plots > tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | are everywhere and our pronouns haven't yet > email: | drawn up plans for the first coup." > joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --J.H. Prynne > ======================================================================= > I swear on my LL Baedeker never again to read e-mail late at night. --Susan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 09:55:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Graham John Sharpe Subject: Re: millennium & David Jones In-Reply-To: <199509280041.RAA14689@ferrari.sfu.ca> from "George Bowering" at Sep 27, 95 03:52:12 pm George Bowering wrote: > Where is it a shock to see David Jones selected? Around here he has > been for a long time considered along with Basil Bunting the main > news from the UK. > Well George, normally whenever i mention david jones i get blank stares back. or better yet bad jokes about The Monkees. and as Peter Larkin mentioned it also seems to me that the critical circle around DJ is growing rapidly - no longer restricted to Hague, Blissett, Dilworth, and a few others - but that is a fairly new phenomenon. I did try to get information about the Jones centenary last January on the MODBRITS list, but i received nothing in reply. i am truly glad to know there was a centenary celebration for DJ. And Peter, i would really appreciate any info from the confrence you have, or even a few clues about the upcomming publications. i'm presently working on a paper on DJ for a course on MOdernist long poems so am curious to see some new publications and some new approaches to Jones. The most current work i've seen of late on DJ (i think) has been Katherine Staudt (or something close to that) 's *At the turn of Civilization* maybe i'm a sucker for First World War Lit. or maybe i know a good thing when i read it wishing well graham . ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 15:43:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Larry Price Subject: Re: the Wild Blue Yonder Anyone who thinks that (Ron thinks that) Ketjak is the equivalent of the wild blue yonder simply hasn't read Ketjak. Anyone who thinks that Alan Davies' Shared Sentences is a lexical wild blue yonder misses the point of form. (Now let's see: I have three toes, and red and blue crayons do this when eaten and swallowed.) It evidently is continually to be restated: We are not in relation to the past. We are relation to the present, where (as Peter Larkin remarked concerning David Jones) "culture has to be about forgetting [and then] to recognize the fragments that work up through that process in unfamiliar patterns which reoriginate attachment." That is, group formation indexes itself through the ferocity of its erasures. Its texts build back in that distancing within the "form" of the village, setting loose a contingency that in the reading levels any implied authority in terms such as "the new generation," "the old generation," "the new sentence," "the old sentence," and particularly "the members of this list." The remainder is paranoia. Larry Price ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 17:03:24 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: MOO tony, does "techniqalities" without a "u" have any significance to the term? burt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 22:50:36 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Albert Hall related Hi. Ken's been posting about this event and I've even had e-mail from NY describing my photo on the publicity which I myself have not seen yet. A few choice observations: - it would appear from the brief I got today that there is considerable press and radio interest being generated by this event - the bill is too beefcake for my liking, with only 3/4 women poets on a bill of maybe 15 performers (I'm told others are being added) / and don't forget the winner of the poetry competition advertised on the leaflet (which I haven't seen as I said, heck I'm merely reporting this stuff) gets to read their poems from the stage alongside us 'alumni'. Made me want to just invite a mass simultaneous reading from the stalls by all the losers as my contribution - until that is the recent discussion about bland abstract lyrics got into action - the promoter is going to spend somewhere close to =A330,000 of his ow= n money, and might well lose much of that - there are two programmes melded together (one offered by Iain Sinclair as himself, Denise Riley, Brian Catling, Kathy Acker, cris cheek and Aaron Williamson / this part of the evening will be introduced by Michael Moorcock (I know, I know, it's seriously weird) - the other being that of the 'official' poetry programme with names as Ken identified plus I'm told at least an attempt to include Anne Waldman and others / introduced by that sixties free wheeling drug baron Howard Marks!) - Penguin books are apparently going to produce a 'memorial' book of the event and it's being filmed - for those curious about such things, it's going to presented kind of rock-multi-media style - clip mikes being de rigeur and a giant screen projecting on-stage 'images' of the performers as filmed by three cameras in the hall - popcorn is not allowed in the building (despite which provision I've agreed to take part), so eat outside love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 17:06:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: An especial danger to hard working poets (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- THE DREADED H.C.E. BRUINBLAST > > Babinski_Ed/furman@furman.edu writes: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="Oh great. This is JUST what I need to read!" > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > : >MOSCOW - > > : > > > : >Doctors are blaming a rare electrical embalance in the brain for the > > : >bizarre death of a chess player whose head literally exploded in the > > : >middle of a championship game! > > : > > > : >No one else was hurt in the fatal explosion but four players and three > > : >officials at the Moscow Candidate Masters' Chess Championships were > > : >sprayed with blood and brain matter when Nicolai Titov's head suddenly > > : >blew apart. Experts say he suffered from a condition called > > : >Hyper-Cerebral Electrosis or HCE. > > : > > > : >"He was in deep concentration with his eyes focussed on the board," says > > : >Titov's opponent, Vladimir Dobrynin. "All of a sudden his hands flew to > > : >his temples and he screamed in pain. Everyone looked up from their games, > > : >startled by the noise. Then, as if someone had put a bomb in his cranium, > > : >his head popped like a firecracker." > > : > > > : >Incredibly, Titov's is not the first case in which a person's head > > : >spontaneously exploded. Five people are known to have died of HCE in the > > : >last 25 years. The most recent death occurred just three years ago in > > : >1991, when European psychic Barbara Nicole's skull burst. Miss Nicole's > > : >story was reported by newspapers worldwide, including WWN. "HCE is an > > : >extremely rare physical imbalance," said Dr. Anatoly Martinenko, famed > > : >neurologist and expert on the human brain who did the autopsy on the > > : >brilliant chess expert. > > : > > > : >"It is a condition in which the circuits of the brain become overloaded > > : >by the body's own electricity. The explosions happen during periods of > > : >intense mental activity when lots of current is surging through the > > : >brain. Victims are highly intelligent people with great powers of > > : >concentration. Both Miss Nicole and Mr. Titov were intense people who > > : >tended to keep those cerebral circuits overloaded. In a way it could be > > : >said they were literally too smart for their own good." > > : > > > : >Although Dr. Martinenko says there are probably many undiagnosed cases, > > : >he hastens to add that very few people will die from HCE. "Most people > > : >who have it will never know. At this point, medical science still doesn't > > : >know much about HCE. And since fatalities are so rare it will probably be > > : >years before research money becomes available." > > : > > > : >In the meantime, the doctor urges people to take it easy and not think > > : >too hard for long periods of time. "Take frequesnt relaxation breaks when > > : >you're doing things that take lots of mental focus," he recommends. > > : > > > : >HOW TO TELL IF YOUR HEAD'S ABOUT TO BLOW UP: > > : > > > : >Although HCE is very rare, it can kill. Dr. Martinenko says knowing you > > : >have the condition can greatly improve your odds of surviving it. A "yes" > > : >answer to any three of the following seven questions could mean you have > > : >HCE: > > : > > > : >1. Does your head sometimes ache when you think too hard? (Head pain can > > : >indicate overloaded brain circuits.) > > : > > > : >2. Do you ever hear a faint ringing or humming sound in your ears? (It > > : >could be the sound of electricity in the skull cavity.) > > : > > > : >3. Do you sometimes find yourself unable to get a thought out of your > > : >head? (This is a possible sign of too much electrical activity in the > > : >cerebral cortex.) > > : > > > : >4. Do you spend more than five hours a day reading, balancing your > > : >checkbook, or other thoughtful activity? (A common symptom of HCE is a > > : >tendency to over-use the brain.) > > : > > > : >5. When you get angry or frustrated do you feel pressure in your temples? > > : >(Friends of people who died of HCE say the victims often complained of > > : >head pressure in times of strong emotion). > > : > > > : >6. Do you ever overeat on ice cream, doughnuts, and other sweets? (A > > : >craving for sugar is typical of people with too much electrical pressure > > : >in the cranium.) > > : > > > : >7. Do you tend to analyze yourself too much? (HCE sufferers are often > > : >introspective, "over-thinking" their lives.) > .- >>>>>>8. Do you spend more than 4 hours a day trying to find new meanings in " u.p.UP" or in "atoms and ifs"?> mark the twy -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 15:27:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: millennium & David Jones In-Reply-To: <199509281655.QAA23792@fraser.sfu.ca> from "Graham John Sharpe" at Sep 28, 95 09:55:47 am I'm just an old admirer of Jones. My wife is an expert, has the patience etc. I just pick up items when I travel. Including a second hand enormous book of the complete drawings tipped in, which I paid 500 bucks for once. So I am not up on the latest. In fact the latest thing I attended was a couple years ago, the wonderful Eric Gill show at Univ. of Toronto, just down the street from Dilworth. Did you see that 1979 item published in Victoria , B.C. by Sono Nis Press? I dont know whether it was also done in a UK or US edition. It is Henry Summerfield's _An Introductory Guide to the Anathemeta and the Sleeping Lord_ Gives references for all the stuff, stuff fr the Niocene Creed, etc.I was lucky, snaffted that for 4 bucks! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 16:20:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shaunanne Tangney Subject: journals (fwd) hello, again, all-- i am forwarding my own post, as it seems to have gotten lost in some kind of cybershuffle! --that is, i don't remember having seen it make it to the list--deep, dark appologoes if i have doubble posted! thanks in advance, shaunanne st@scs.unr.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 20:04:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Shaunanne Tangney To: POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: journals hello,all-- i have a querry for you: i have a very theoretical paper that i want very much to publish. it is rather non-traditional (read: non-academic), slightly non-linear, and fuses prose and poetry. it asks (answers?!) all those big questions like, what is a writer? writing? poetry? a poet? i rely on cixous and derrida (as i am wont to do!) but include frost, poirier, dickinson, plath, and woolf, too. most of these are allusions; the paper is very much mine. it is a position paper, i guess, and does not really consider pedagogical issues, nor is it very empirical. i am considering trying it at either _the american poetry review_ or _critical texts: a review of theory and criticism_. my question to you all is: does anyone know anything about these journals? are the reffereed? do they have a wide/national circulation? a good reputation? i am btw. that rock/hard place with this one, in that it is fairly un-traditional, and yet as an academic, i need publications! i think it is valuable paper--but i fear that more traditional journals are not appropriate; but then again, i cannot go too far off the beaten path, and satisfy the academy! i thank you in advance for your input--backchannel me if you'd rather-- shaunanne st@scs.unr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 19:26:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Flossy & WCWs army of ah whatever no, rod, i'd still keep olson in "current" -- no one before him, few since, have been able to escape augustine's time (language/time), all linear. olson's "history" is still in the words, no critic's taken that from him yet. -ed ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 19:35:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: The News i checked on the story, aldon, and can confirm it's true, tho the woman who survived is being held by authorities; it seems the scrap of verse included the letters wcw but was otherwise held to be indecent by university professors who teach wcw and say they can't live without him; he's the only poet students understand these days. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 19:45:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: you & an army of mixed metaphors and forgotten half-truths... actually, steve, i like that new jersey accent, and it's almost gone. i smashed an elbow a couple years ago, and the doctor who fixed it (in his 70s or 80s, i'd say, but did a fantastic job) sounded just like those williams recordings. i asked him if he'd heard of wcw, and he said, oh, ya, the guy that used to be at passaic" [i.e. passaic general]. i ran into a older guy selling real estate with that accent, not long ago; and the other day a friend and i heard in one of the old bars around here. but like wcw's world generally, the accent's gone. -ed ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 19:44:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: qal "friends of a tend"--Gale Nelson "The remainder is paranoia"--Larry Price - Thanks for the Jay Wright stuff. - Not to make you do my research, but has anybody written on the subject of arguments between poets? Excommunications? Splits? Weakenings of ties? Anybody know any good stories? Jordan Davis ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 20:15:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: bland abstract lyrics, or you've got wheat in your eye HEY, HEY, HEY, GEORGE: careful there, some of my best poet friends are very, very dead: Cavafy, for one; went all the way to Alexandria just to find his grave and talk with him. in fact, odd though it must sound, i have a few words with wcw every time i head east along route 3. but he still sounds as if he were my grandfather or great-grandfather, always giving advice. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 12:43:24 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: MOO techniqalities with a q not really so darned significant as all that only suggestive of "technical qualities" it's not worth worrying over Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 21:34:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "SUSAN E. TICHY" Subject: Re: Flossy & WCWs army of ah whatever In-Reply-To: <01HVTK1C6H8I8ZFBBL@VAXC.STEVENS-TECH.EDU> On Thu, 28 Sep 1995, Edward Foster wrote: > no, rod, i'd still keep olson in "current" -- no one before him, few since, have > been able to escape augustine's time (language/time), all linear. olson's "hist > ory" is still in the words, no critic's taken that from him yet. -ed > When I wrote a paper with this exact thesis, at UCBerkeley 20 years ago, my professor said "well-argued, but nonsense". --Susan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 22:26:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Phillips Patrick Subject: New Address I have lost my affiliation. Am no longer framed by a clear institution - though I'm still not sure Brown was much more than a service. I now hail from the megaplex - AOL - and pay for what once was free... Sorry to any if you have responded to my recent post, but here's the new address - PRPhillips@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 21:07:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: Poetry Wars >"friends of a tend"--Gale Nelson > >"The remainder is paranoia"--Larry Price > >- Thanks for the Jay Wright stuff. > >- Not to make you do my research, but has anybody written on the >subject of arguments between poets? Excommunications? Splits? Weakenings >of ties? Anybody know any good stories? > >Jordan Davis Jordan: _Poetry Wars_ by Tom Clark dishes a lot of dirt. Can't remember what press it's on, though, or if it's still in print. Steve ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 21:31:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: An especial danger to hard working poets (fwd) In-Reply-To: from "Jorge Guitart" at Sep 28, 95 05:06:45 pm I first got that exploding head story or a variant from Australia about 6 months ago, and then again from somewhere about a month ago. When yr buying a second-hand computer, look carefully for bits of brain and bone. A word to the wise. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 10:37:55 GMT0BST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Larkin Organization: UNIVERSITY OF WARWICK LIBRARY Subject: David Jones As DJ seems to be stirring an interest (and thanks to Larry Price for inserting him into the Wild Blue Yonder discussion) let me tell what I know for anyone in or visiting the UK over the next few months. Two exhibitions: DJ: a Map of the Artist's Mind Glynn Vivian Gallery, Swansea 30 sept-12 Nov Hove Museum, Hove, 19 Nov - 28 Jan National Museum,Cardiff 17 Feb - 14 April DJ: A Centenary Exhibition Wolsey Fine Arts, 12 Needham Rd,London 25 Oct - 25 Nov (catalogue already available) Three new books: DJ: Ten Letters Agenda Eds Feb 1996 (but priced at stlg70!) DJ: a Fusilier at the Front ed. A.J.Hyne, Seren Sept 1995 DJ: the Maker Unmade, By J Miles & D.Shiel, Seren Nov 1995 Also not yet announced: DJ: Artist and Writer ed Paul Hills , Avebury, Spring 1996 This will contain a new paper by Kathleen Henderson Staudt who has written (I agree with Graham Sharpe on this) the best book on DJ to date, "At the Turn of a Civilization", U of Michigan Press, 1993.Also featured is a piece of Gallic esprit by Jacques Darras on the role of somnolence in English culture. One last general point: DJ is most visible as a WW1 poet (though a controversial one, given his treatment of war as a recurrent human predicament,to be rememorated as much as resisted(( for a recent theoretical reading, see Evelyn Cobley "Representing War" U of Toronto P, 1993)). More immediate to me, though, are parts of The Anathemata and some of the fragments in The Sleeping Lord, especially The Tutelar of the Place, a wonderful trenchant statement of the poetics of attachment but entirely of the present (DJ believed art can only be of "the Now"). See my paper "Tutelary Visitations" in Paul Hills above. Sorry for the Jonesian exactitude of all this. Peter Peter Larkin Philosophy & Literature Librarian University of Warwick Library,Coventry CV4 7AL UK Tel:01203 524475 Fax: 01203 524211 Email: Lyaaz@Libris.Lib.Warwick.ac.uk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 09:25:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Navdeep Dhillon Subject: unsubscribe __o __o -\<, -\<, ...........O/ O ................................0/ 0 Navdeep Dhillon ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 11:04:28 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Keith Tuma Subject: Re: Albert Hall related In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 28 Sep 1995 22:50:36 +0000 from cris and Ken: Here's hoping you'll both post something in the way of a report on the Albert Hall festivities after the "reforgotten" appear October 16. For those who haven't seen the flyer, cris gets second prize for best picture, after Brian Catling, who looks like a cross between a postmodern monk and that guy from the original Adams Family--was it Fester?--sans light bulb in mouth. What is that you're smokin' cris? For those of us--me--who know little or nothing about them, who are these "counter cultural heroes"--as the brochure describes the "presenters"--Michael Moorcock and Howard Marks? Hell, I thought the only poetry celebrities in England these days were the New Gen folks. And not a one of them on the program. The Blaserfest reports were entertaining and useful: great to have more of the same in this case for those of us who can't get across the pond. --Keith Tuma ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 09:31:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lisa Robertson Subject: ssplits and weakenings Dear Jordon, Edith Sitwell cuttingly narrates the split between Lady Mary Wortley Montagu and Alexander Pope in her biography of Pope.I'm not sure whether it was in this book that I read that the final blow for Pope's and Lady Mary's mutually generative partnership involved the return of borrowed bed-sheets, unlaundered. In any case, Sitwell's bio ought to be read for its curious, long, dense lists which are among the least banal texts I have ever had the pleasure of reading. (see chapter XI, Fashionable, Life for these) sincerely, Lisa ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 14:17:36 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Alan Golding Subject: Mullen and more Associate Professor of English, U. of Louisville Phone: (502)-852-5918; e-mail: acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu Does anyone know of any commentary on Harryette Mullen's work--essays, reviews, etc.--and esp., though not exclusively, on Trimmings? You can reach me via my backchannel, provided you can get past the anal godling lodging in my Poetic Briefs. Since one or two threads of the WCW argument are still dangling, I thought to mention a good essay Hank Lazer published a few years ago on different readings of WCW among recent poets. (Hank, maybe you can post the ref.? I don't have it to hand right now.) What's being debated, at the risk of stating the obvious, is competing readings of WCW, not whether any given characteristic is "really there" in his work. My memory is that Hank lays out very well what different writers have recently found in WCW, and what different texts they're drawn to in order to find what they need. Tenney, I appreciate your faith in the breadth of my reading, but I pretty much lost touch with Wright after The Double Invention of Komo, which I believe was his first book. And after this bloody (in all senses) trial, I can no longer read his line about "the broken field runner in the terminal" without thinking of OJ and Hertz commercials. Jordan: Chap. 4 of my book From Outlaw to Classic talks some about internal differences/arguments within an embryonic poetic community in discussing the first series of Cid Corman's Origin. This isn't the chapter's main focus, but I do get into the issues somewhat. I agree that it's hard to find material beyond the anecdotal (though that's always entertaining too). anal godlodging ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 11:09:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: ay sixes and sevens In-Reply-To: <199509290358.UAA11977@sparta.SJSU.EDU> Ed-- Have you really taken to six liners now, or has some pirate rengadeer secretly attached himself to your three-liners?? My students also understand Edwin Markham -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 15:05:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Brannen Subject: Re: renga - the sequel At 10:17 PM 9/22/95 -0500, Charles Alexander wrote: >hobbyist quaffs juleps poured in the direction of the skids >made by Chevettes sliding off the I5 south of Tacoma >looking like a born-again, living like a heretic, listening >to blues most simpering until the Camels dry away, stained fingertips >on Cynthia's knees, prompting treasure taken forgiveness sighing colored the image of the dancer brooding on the fence the demon beneath falling sky is an appropriate image for an eleven-year-old on the run from incendiary bombs at the edge of the city devoid of figures ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 15:07:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Brannen Subject: Re: spike it with saussure - begins the intramix... At 09:30 AM 9/23/95 -0400, Jorge Guitart wrote: >On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books > of Palookaville & the dead heroes of Guadalajara > empowering scores of liberated mozos intent of Lacanian > libretti, salted with much, much more than roughage added to taste > or tremolo, finding the shores awash with alphabet, proclaiming nothing > nutting nothing a-merrily over my dead bodies in abandon > where wrote was written, stepping one four nine > passacaglia without the prefab little knobbed things on them > completely set on the sea as so much crabbiness > diverts attention from wars in three voices and the steady rain of hemlock > falling on the Concerns box & a sob distant as adventure capital >behind the exterior of the city was an interior composed of scar tissue recording the grain of farm house timbers a rubble of history in the grass where a decapitated statue unavoidably becomes an image of a nation without a true face ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 17:23:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: in dreams In-Reply-To: <9509292007.AA00605@infolink.infolink.morris.mn.us> > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books > > of Palookaville & the dead heroes of Guadalajara > > empowering scores of liberated mozos intent of Lacanian > > libretti, salted with much, much more than roughage added to taste > > or tremolo, finding the shores awash with alphabet, proclaiming nothing > > nutting nothing a-merrily over my dead bodies in abandon > > where wrote was written, stepping one four nine > > passacaglia without the prefab little knobbed things on them completely set on the sea as so much crabbiness diverts attention from wars in three voices and the steady rain of hemlock falling on the Concerns box & a sob distant as adventure capital behind the exterior of the city was an interior composed of scar tissue recording the grain of farm house timbers a rubble of history in the grass where a decapitated statue unavoidably becomes an image of a nation without a true face a face to sell a magazine, a face to turn to the side ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 17:53:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Smith Subject: Re: Poetry Wars >- Not to make you do my research, but has anybody written on the >subject of arguments between poets? Excommunications? Splits? Weakenings >of ties? Anybody know any good stories? > >Jordan Davis & Steve Carll replies: _Poetry Wars_ by Tom Clark dishes a lot of dirt. Can't remember what press it's on, though, or if it's still in print. Clark's _The Great Naropa Poetry Wars_ was published by Cadmus Editions in 1980. Doubt it's still in print. Ed Dorn still won't be found on the Naropa campus next door to CU. Mary Oppen in _Meaning A Life_ has some stuff on George's troubled relation to Zukofsky. More material can be found in the volume of his letters edited by Rachel DuPlessis. Jenny Penberthy touches on LZ's relationship w/ Niedecker, & her cautious letters to Corman (ed. Lisa Faranda) add more. Excommunications? How 'bout any history of Breton & the surrealists. Guess we'll have to wait for Kevin's Spicer bio to hear all about how Duncan/Spicer/Blaser et al. treated each other, & the seriousness of their fallings out. Anyone present at the Blaser gig remembers Kevin reading a George Stanley letter talking about Robin while George sat there on stage grinning & squirming. Who doesn't remember the ugly ruckus arising from RD's interruption of Barry Watten's LZ talk. After David Levi Strauss dredged it up a few years later, the pages of the local _Poetry Flash_ were filled w/ it. All of which did have repercussions on who people talked to/read/published with. Of course there's more. But even when serious issues of poetics are involved, going over all this 'dirt' seldom rises above the level of gossip & personalities. Guess I have doubts about the value of such a study. Charles ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 18:06:55 -2400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: vannevar prosodie Hi. A hypertext-historical question (set of questions). Anybody here talk about Vannevar Bush? Anybody here work with Intelligent Pad? Will that program work on a mac? Is there a prosody of hypertext? Jordan Lisa: thanks for the papism. I forgot/didn't know Sitwell's book and will trundle shortly to find it. Do you (does anybody here) read her poems? They've always been brushed aside (when I bring them up) as sort-of-second-rate Stein. Which doesn't seem quite accurate ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 18:03:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: the Wild Blue Yonder Larry Price writes: >It evidently is continually to be restated: We are not in relation to the >past. We are relation to the present, where (as Peter Larkin remarked >concerning David Jones) "culture has to be about forgetting [and then] to >recognize the fragments that work up through that process in unfamiliar >patterns which reoriginate attachment." When you forget something, when you erase it, aren't forgetting and erasing modes of relating to that something? Or, to ask it another way, doesn't the past nonetheless come to presence, albeit as what is no longer present? Please restate it again for us paranoiacs :-) Steve ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 00:06:06 -0400 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: zukofsky/Bottom found as happenstance would have it-- found at the local bookstore: 1st edition copy of Zukofsy's _Bottom_, arc press, both volumes hardbound & cased; ex libris Hugh Kenner (handsigned inside front cover, some markings & maginal annotations)... contact me backchannel for pricing &, while i'm at it, any offers on Dorn's _Gunslinger Book 2_, black sparrow, ex libris ron silliman? why would he have let that go? or why would he have had it in the first place? luigi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 23:32:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: yikes >Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 18:06:55 -2400 >From: Jordan Davis >Subject: vannevar prosodie > >Hi. >A hypertext-historical question (set of questions). Anybody here talk >about Vannevar Bush? Anybody here work with Intelligent Pad? Will that >program work on a mac? Is there a prosody of hypertext? > >Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 08:19:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lisa Robertson Subject: Sitwell Dear Jordan, Naturally I do read Sitwell's poems, especially her early ones. They-- with Swinburne-- have become permanent bed-side fixtures. I find Sitwell very unlike Stein and suspect their friendship and mutual respect tinted sitwell's poems for some readers. In any case, their projects are quite different in intent. The detail of Sitwell's attention to the sound texture of a poem-- the specific variability of effect of syllabic structure on metre and rhythm-- is almost scientic in its precision-- and beautiful and funny. Many fairly sophisticated readers apparently thought so before the New Critics successfully deleted her from serious discussion of 20C poetry. Maybe this had something to do with her extension of some of the premises of decadence-- terribly unfashionable-- as well as her exploration of fairy tale and nursery rhyme as literary structures. I've fantasized for several years about writing on Sitwell, and hope to get at it some day. Lisa ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 13:22:54 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Edwards <100344.2546@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Albert Hall Yes, I'll be there as the list's own cub reporter, and will file a report on the proceedings on 16 Oct. Maybe Cris will also tell us how it was for him. Michael Moorcock is a(n ex-) science-fiction writer who edited New Worlds magazine and wrote a series of novels in the late 60s featuring counter-culture anti-hero of the omniverse Jerry Cornelius. Lately he's been writing anti-porn stuff with Andrea Dworkin. I can't remember who Howard Marks is/was. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 13:10:47 -40962758 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Rosenberg Subject: Re: vannevar prosodie Jordan Davis : > A hypertext-historical question (set of questions). Anybody here talk > about Vannevar Bush? There are a few of us hypertextual or machine-modulated poetry folk who hang out hereabouts -- myself, John Cayley to name a couple. The discussion turns to hypertext now and again but not with much persistence. You probably want to subscribe to ht_lit. Pardon the bandwidth, but it's been a while since anyone posted that address: : From: riddle@rice.edu (Prentiss Riddle) : People interested in hyperfiction may also want to know about "ht_lit", : the hypertext and literary theory mailing list. The ht_lit list was : created in February 1995 to provide a forum for discussion of hypertext : fiction, hypertext and literary studies, and hypertext theory. To : subscribe, send mail to "subscribe@journal.biology.carleton.ca" with : the phrase "subscribe ht_lit" in the body of the message. For more : information see: : : ht_lit archive page : http://www.eng.carleton.ca/~kmennie/ht_lit.html > Anybody here work with Intelligent Pad? Will that > program work on a mac? I'm not familiar with that one; try posting to alt.hypertext. > Is there a prosody of hypertext? You might want to look at a piece I wrote called "Notes Toward a Non-Linear Prosody of Space". You can find it at: http://www.well.com/user/jer/nonlin_prosody.html -- Jim Rosenberg http://www.well.com/user/jer/ CIS: 71515,124 WELL: jer Internet: jr@amanue.pgh.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 11:11:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: wrighting & mullen In-Reply-To: <199509300358.UAA28226@sparta.SJSU.EDU> Alan et al -- actually, first Wright book I've seen is _Death as History_ (1967), followed by _The Homecoming Singer_ (1971) -- Heven't seen anything substantial on Mullen yet -- I spoke briefly about _Trimmings_ at MLA in NY where you were in audience -- & will send copy of that -- forthcoming book quotes a number of reviews, so I'll send you those pages in case you want to see the full reviews -- Trust there will be more critical work to come -- Mullen, by the way, has a chapter in _The Culture of Sentiment_, ed. by Shirley Samuels, that's worth looking at -- if your library doesn't have it, I can send a xerox -- in paragraph two, that's Harryette's forthcoming book, _Muse & Drudge_, not mine -- I quote Mullen on vision & literacy in mine, but won't get to my full discussion of her poetry till vol. 2 -- would love to hear anything you have to say about her work ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 12:48:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: Sitwell Lisa and Jordan, This is Kevin Killian speaking. If you enjoy Edith Sitwell, I know you will enjoy the forthcoming film "At Home with the Stars #3, featuring Denton Welch," by the NY videographer Joe Westmoreland, in which I yours truly play Dame Edith Sitwell in this feature-length version of the life of Denton Welch. I got to write all my own dialogue, dress up in fabulous clothes and jewels, and welcome Denton into my London flat . . . serve him tea . . . we discuss poetry and literature, and Denton's illness and death. As I was speaking underneath this wonderful jewel-studded turban, I believe I was able to channel Sitwell's actual voice: she spoke through me just as Lorca did to Spicer! Only this is in living color, and pixel vision too. Anyhow watch for this show at an obscure art film festival near you early next year. However, Lisa, you are the Sitwell de nos jours, the Edith of Vancouver, and your pudeur, wit and brilliance when reading will never be forgotten by any who have seen you read; however, I had the right dress (one of Dodie's) and headdress, so it is a tossup. Did you know that Edith met, in the course of her career, not only Denton Welch but Raquel Welch too? XXX Kevin ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 13:36:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: o wind (was: http://azstarnet.com/starnet/today/lx2030.htm) Comments: To: english@listserv.arizona.edu >Date: Sat, 30 Sep 95 13:31:13 -0700 >From: Tenney Nathanson >Organization: University of Arizona >To: tenney@azstarnet.com >Subject: http://azstarnet.com/starnet/today/lx2030.htm >Content-Length: 4188 > >http://azstarnet.com/starnet/today/lx2030.htm >> Tenure inquiry >> may be dicey, >> regents learn >> >> By Alisa Wabnik >> >> The Arizona Daily Star >> >> TEMPE - Even the question of how to debate tenure drew controversy >> at yesterday's Arizona Board of Regents meeting, previewing the >> intense feelings to come as the board considers whether to eliminate >> the university job benefit. >> >> Board members agreed, 4-2, to hear in the next several months from >> national experts - both for and against tenure - before deciding how >> to proceed. >> >> But they first rejected a proposal from university presidents and >> faculty to get their recommendations from a committee of >> academicians. Some regents said it would produce biased results. >> >> ``If all the people on this (proposed) task force come out of >> academia, then we're not going to have the kind of discussion I want >> to have,'' Regent John Munger said. >> >> ``We don't want to just discuss the possibility of modifying tenure. >> We want to discuss whether tenure is appropriate at all,'' Munger >> said. >> >> Regent Hank Amos agreed, but nevertheless voted with Regent Andrew >> Hurwitz against having multiple speakers because he wanted to hire >> independent consultants instead. Hurwitz preferred the committee >> structure, while board President Eddie Basha abstained. Regents Art >> Chapa and Rudy Campbell were absent. >> >> Munger's comments provoked a forceful response from Arizona State >> University President Lattie Coor, who said they violated his >> understanding from previous discussions of where the board is >> headed. >> >> ``These are matters that affect literally thousands of people,'' >> Coor said. ``If this board intends to seriously entertain >> eliminating tenure as a function of the Arizona university system - >> a step so radical that it would fundamentally transform all the >> institutions - then I think we ought to . . . get this issue on the >> table.'' >> >> Tenure has been a staple of academic life since the early 20th >> century, when universities began offering it to their faculty as >> both freedom and security - freedom to pursue scholarly ideas >> without fear of political reprisal, and economic security to compete >> with higher-paying jobs in the private sector. >> >> As of last fall, 2,765 of the 5,507 faculty in Arizona's university >> system had tenure, said Nor- ma Salas, the regents' assistant for >> public affairs. About another 1,000 were on the tenure track, she >> said. >> >> ``The concern of the faculty about tenure is not their concern about >> their personal tenure,'' which likely would be protected by >> contracts written before any new board action, said ASU Provost >> Milton Glick. >> >> ``It is rather a concern about our ability to be the best possible >> university.'' Many administrators and faculty worry that eliminating >> tenure could drive away Arizona's best professors, who could seek >> jobs elsewhere since most other universities offer the benefit. >> >> But regents also hear from community members who view tenure as >> simply a lifelong job perk for unproductive professors. >> >> ``Regents across this country, legislators across this country, the >> public across this country are all asking for us to rethink the >> notion of tenure . . . and that's what we're doing,'' Basha said. >> >> But University of Arizona President Manuel Pacheco said after >> yesterday's discussion that, ``There is more intensity to the issue >> of whether we should have tenure or not than I guess I had read'' >> from previous meetings. >> >> Regent Judy Gignac said she hoped the ruckus would not prompt >> faculty to get ``all riled up,'' akin to the turnout of about 150 >> people Thursday when the regents discussed affirmative action. >> >> However, Hurwitz countered that - although he likely would not vote >> to end tenure in Arizona - ``there is a strong possibility that >> members of this board will want to look at a variety of radical >> alternatives. I think the faculty should be anxious,'' Hurwitz said. >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> News Links >> >> The regents and their responsibilities are profiled in theRegents >> Home Page at ASU. > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 14:47:42 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: Scholar's Bookshelf Brian McHale very kindly backconduited the coordinates of the Scholar's Bookshelf store at which I was able to put an order in for two copies of Bottom for $18US ea (I think). Brian, thank you very much for the effort you went to to find the address etc. Since I have to post this thank you to the List Itself, may as well also post the store's address in case anyone else wants it: 110 Melrich Rd Cranbury, NJ 08512 Tel. (609) 395 6933 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 17:50:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: A Criticism (in Really Bad Taste) >Michael Moorcock is a(n ex-) science-fiction writer who edited New Worlds >magazine and wrote a series of novels in the late 60s featuring counter-culture >anti-hero of the omniverse Jerry Cornelius. Lately he's been writing anti-porn >stuff with Andrea Dworkin. With a name like that, he's taking a mighty big risk writing anti-porn stuff. Steve