========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 03:28:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Williams, W. C. ><Williams felt such an admission of vocation--with the no distinction >between what one "does" and who one "is"--difficult to make in >mid-century America. As an addendum, I'd say that declaring one's >profession as Professor of Poetry in polite conversation around the >Thanksgiving Turkey in 1995 doesn't get you very many more nods of >approval and tacit understanding than Williams's admission got him in >1954. > >Joseph Conte>> > >Try going with WCW's affirmation without the prestige attached to >"Professor!" > >all best, charles > -------------------------------- I remember on my first job trying to keep my poetry quiet (I'd only published one book and that from Ithaca House, never a paragon of distribution) and getting away with it for about a year until somebody (never did figure out who) saw and clipped a review I did (a POSITIVE review of Tom Clark's _Neil Young_ in Rolling Stone to be exact) and posted it on the bulletin board. I was appalled at first, but then nothing much happened other than a couple of the more argumentative types wanting to know more and discovering that I wasn't doing identarian "the people united" dramatic monologs and having some interesting arguments over that. Since then, everyone's pretty much known that I write poetry and it's no big deal. Some people where I work fly airplanes or go ocean fishing on the weekends, others run marathons, others are active in their churches. I think people take it on that level. It works the other way too. Jack Krick and I just discovered that we work pretty much in the same industry. (I've been a client of his company, no less.) Wouldn't've guessed if his email server hadn't bounced back a message over the Thanksgiving weekend with the specific division title in the header. Ron ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:22:46 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeff Hansen Organization: The Blake School Subject: Poetry and the Academy In the discussion on poetry in the academy, I have yet to see mention of the financial crisis in higher education. Young people with Ph.D.s who are interested in poetry rarely get hired. Granted, the situation is bad in every subspecialty of English departments, but the poetry one seems most acute. The situation will probably not end, and, since I am not now in academia and probably will never return, I 'm not that concerned about it. Rather, I'm interested in what happens to intellectuals (may I still use that word) who have been university trained (perhaps in a highly innovative manner such as myself--Beloit College and The SUNY-Buffalo English program), and leave academia for greener pastures. Do some give up on writing and thinking? Or do others, like me, try to squeeze it into incredibly busy schedules? Unlike Charles Alexander, I left academia not because I didn't want it, but because it didn't want me. A few years ago, I couldn't think of a better job for a writer than a professor--flexible schedule. But now I am beginning to look at nonacademic life as a blessing: I don't have to worry about publishing in certain places or publishing the right kind of thing. Not ever having to write critical articles/papers has freed my prose in ways I like. While I do enjoy reading some academic prose, I did find that too much exposure to it limits me. Now, my thinking and writing are hobbies rather than a profession. And, as a long-time critic of "professionalism," I like that. Since there are others like me, maybe this situation is good. Maybe the freedom to think and write without institutional constraints will make us more interesting and interested, less "fashionable", more true to our own evolving engagements. I know that it is a cliche, but academia does stultify thinking in many ways, many of which have been outlined in this discussion Finally, before I appear too anti-academic, let me say that I appreciate how the academic critics mentioned by Ron Silliman do promote poetry there. It is one of the institutions where poetry is taken seriously. (but it is not, Hugh Kenner, the only place that takes care of poetry). Luigi Bob Drake, for one, creates other places. Three cheers for Taproot Reviews. Three cheers for renegade poet/thinkers. Best, Jeff ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:53:32 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David J. Coogan" Subject: Re: More on poetry and cultural studies In-Reply-To: <951130165339_61802166@emout04.mail.aol.com> On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, Michael Greer wrote: When I was in grad > school, all of my "cultural studies" friends (who were not in English but in > the Institute for Communications Research at U of Illinois) continually > pressed me about the exclusionary, colonialist politics of English studies, > about the high-cultural bias of literary studies, and repeatedly wanted to > know why on earth one might want to study poetry, and avant-garde at that, in > a culture such as ours. I wrote a dissertation to answer them, and I'm not > satisfied with my response yet: it's a good question. I for one urge that it > be taken seriously... > Michael -- How did you answer the question in your dissertation? (How did you begin to answer it?) Dave Coogan coogan@charlie.acc.iit.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 11:17:09 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Poetry and the Academy jeff, i really do think that the alternatives are not simply the "professional" as currently construed over and against the "hobbyist"... and although one may locate oneself outside of academe per se (thankfully) the reality is that academe per se will always have something to say about poetry/poetics... which is to say, simply, that nobody operates outside of (some conjunction of) institutions... i'd rather that talented folks who DON'T earn a living as writers STILL be regarded "professionals"... i'd rather that, again, some "we" appropriates this latter term and disengages it from "making a living"... but again my ambivalence---i just see no other way to mount any sustained resistance to more orthodox pressures, esp. these days... anyway, i appreciate the gist of what you're saying... all best// joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 13:10:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Smith Subject: Re: "I am I am" Ok Ron, you've got me laughing now. I was just responding to a little academic whining with some outsider whining of my own. You're right, most people respond to the activity of poetry w/ mild curiosity which quickly passes, & conversation returns to skiing or music or whatever. A few are interested though, & I've been pleased to turn on some lawyers, accounting clerks, biologists, & cabinet makers to poems by poets they'd never have heard of otherwise, & through that have even been responsible for the sale of a few books. I was taken aback though last month when a woman approached me wondering if I had any poems that "might be appropriate for our Sunday church services." all best, charles smith ><Williams felt such an admission of vocation--with the no distinction >between what one "does" and who one "is"--difficult to make in >mid-century America. As an addendum, I'd say that declaring one's >profession as Professor of Poetry in polite conversation around the >Thanksgiving Turkey in 1995 doesn't get you very many more nods of >approval and tacit understanding than Williams's admission got him in >1954. > >Joseph Conte>> > >Try going with WCW's affirmation without the prestige attached to >"Professor!" > >all best, charles > -------------------------------- I remember on my first job trying to keep my poetry quiet (I'd only published one book and that from Ithaca House, never a paragon of distribution) and getting away with it for about a year until somebody (never did figure out who) saw and clipped a review I did (a POSITIVE review of Tom Clark's _Neil Young_ in Rolling Stone to be exact) and posted it on the bulletin board. I was appalled at first, but then nothing much happened other than a couple of the more argumentative types wanting to know more and discovering that I wasn't doing identarian "the people united" dramatic monologs and having some interesting arguments over that. Since then, everyone's pretty much known that I write poetry and it's no big deal. Some people where I work fly airplanes or go ocean fishing on the weekends, others run marathons, others are active in their churches. I think people take it on that level. It works the other way too. Jack Krick and I just discovered that we work pretty much in the same industry. (I've been a client of his company, no less.) Wouldn't've guessed if his email server hadn't bounced back a message over the Thanksgiving weekend with the specific division title in the header. Ron ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 11:28:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: Poetry and the Academy Jeff Hanson writes: >Rather, I'm interested in what happens to intellectuals (may I still use that >word) who have been university trained (perhaps in a highly innovative manner >such as myself--Beloit College and The SUNY-Buffalo English program), and >leave academia for greener pastures. Do some give up on writing and thinking? >Or do others, like me, try to squeeze it into incredibly busy schedules? Jeff, a bit of fodder on this issue: Early on, I planned a triplicate kind of path that has served me in happy ways. I secured what is sometimes called the terminal degree in academia; I went on to build a very interesting career in the corporate world; and throughout it all I write and write. I find no conflict whatsoever (except a challenge with time, which I keep becoming better at addressing) relative to TIME USAGE. But everyone else seems to have that issue, too. I'd say that there's the potential for something that certainly resembles "having it all" by combining strong academic preparation and creative applications of it in other arenas. The business world is, for all other things it may be, deliciously practical, focused, and discrete in terms of offering projects that begin and end. I find it no threat to my "thinky" pursuits and have always enjoyed the people in that world. Bottom line (since we're addressing business) is that you have the potential for a very positive experience outside of academia, so long as you keep your expectations in line with what you can want and are willing to make happen. Hope this is helpful. Sheila Murphy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 13:43:55 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Bouchard/College/hmco Subject: Dirtywords.com I just read that America On-Line retracted its ban on using the word "breast" in personal profiles after a barrage of protests from people who use the Internet to discuss breast cancer and other medical issues. What other kinds of censorship have people experienced with the services of AOL or other internet companies? What other words does AOL consider vulgar? Personally, I think "downsizing" is one of the most vulgar words out there today. daniel_bouchard@hmco.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 12:59:55 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin McGuirk Subject: Re: More on poetry and cultural studies In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 30 Nov 1995 16:53:40 -0500 from Though I'm not widely read in cultural studies, I have been thinking about poetry and cultural studies, provoked by poetry's palpable absence from at least the major cs anthologies. In fact, I just got back on the list because a friend and I had been planning a proposal for a poetry & cs anthology, when another friend told me about this discussion. I wanted to check it out, and I'm compelled to add my own half-born, maybe monstrous, thoughts on the matter. One thing that seems important to me is not to take a defensive posture regarding cs. Poetry has been largely on the defensive since at least Arnold, and that posture, along with its enduring affiliation with Arnoldian notions of culture has ensured its cultural marginality. As has been noted, cs refused Arnoldian notions of culture along with what was for A and still is for many (in the least likely places, I might add) the privileged cultural site of poetry. But like theory, cs is a provocation to reconsider, or at least reconsider how we consider, the nature of poetry and of the poetic. The New Formalists have been taken to task for their theory-attitude and I would be sorry to see a similar attitute toward cs developing as well. I agree with some posters that "subject" studies on "breastfeeding in Villette" arent (hard, anyway) cultural studies, if they consider only practices *represented* in literature and not literature itself as a practice. (I have no objections to such work *personally*; I'm simple enough to want to learn about stuff writers write about,but then I'm not in a position to evaluate graduate work in English depts). It seems to me that an assumption of much comment on potential links between poetry and cs is that cs will be accommodate d TO poetry, that we'll just do culturalist readings of work we already call poetry, i.e what we put into anthologies for teaching it. But what is refreshing about cs to me is that it won't respect the boundaries we continue t o draw around a variety of verse practices. An anthology of work on poetry and cs, it seems to me, would include work on Poetry as well as greeting card verse (I'm curious about ITS history), prayers, schoolyard and nursery rhymes, rap and rock [of course, tho no claims to Art for Jim Morrison], or cultural histories of how people (who dont think about literature) have USED poetry. And much else, including for example, the renga that's been discussed here. Poetry as people's practice, not art, however "degraded" or commodified it might seem or be. Now much recent American poetics takes poetry as practice - and this should maybe make poetry exemplary for cs (and indeed some impt cs notions were first noticed by romantic poets, like the everyday). But it seems to me (tho this reading may be too impressionistic and generalizing - take it for what it's worth) that 20th century poetry functions largely as symbolic practice;it seeks onlya metaphorical resonance with the world "out there", public life, and in "here", how people actually live in the world (i.e. not the Platonic everyday which is the pap of of a lot of lyric poetry). My feeling these days, as teacher and lover of poetry in all its forms (just about) is that we need to get out in the field, and that we shouldnt worry either about its apparent antagonists among the "masses" neitherthe TV watching public nor"arrogant braggart" grad students (Yikes!)(who it seems to me don't merit such a Grand dismissal, if qualified by MOST grad students). My chief hesitation about a collection of cs work on poetry is that the motley flavour of the total list of cultural criticism on poetry represented by postings here would be lost, especially if it were published by Routledge. I would add only: "`It dread inna Inglan'":Linton Kwesi Johnson, Dub, and Dread Identity" by Peter Hitchcock in _Postmodern Culture_ 4.1 Sept 1993. Kevin McGuirk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 12:58:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marisa Januzzi Subject: Re: needs junk In-Reply-To: <951130194740_39866940@emout04.mail.aol.com> Wallace Stevens of all people wrote great junkyard lyrics: "The Man on the Dump." Thought you were hearing the 'burble of bassoons' bubbling up there, Bill Luoma... thanks for that post. John Yau and Bill Barrette did a NY book about two years ago-- poetics of vacant precincts, photographs of dumps and other 'unseen' places in NY-- but the cumulative effect is really sad and dislocating and disturbing and in an oblique way, confrontational-- not bubblie, in a word. Off to my dump-site of a desk------ Marisa ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 15:16:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Issa Clubb Subject: Re: Dirtywords.com >What other words does AOL consider vulgar? Here is a cut and paste from a website which tells you what you want to know: "Why AOL Sucks" http://www.cloud9.net:80/~jegelhof/ Strangely "breast" does not appear, even though this is an old document. I've heard stories of people being kicked off when their kids snuck on using a parent's account, & who then experienced much condescension in the process of getting their account restored. ____________________________ AOL's "Vulgarity Guidelines" This is an internal AOL memo indicating what, specifically, "bad words" are. Most of these words are sexual slang, but some others - most notably those relating to homosexuality - are also deleted. Note also the policies, footnotes, and rating systems in this document. It is impossible to contend that this document isn't a censorship system. ____________________ VULGARITY GUIDELINES This section contains examples of vulgar, conditionally vulgar, and acceptable phrases and subjects. Synonyms of these are usually unacceptable. Gender should not be taken into account; if "men on men" is not allowed, neither is "women on men". Asterisks and other symbols cannot be used to "mask" a violation if any letters of the vulgarity are still present. "F--- you" is vulgar, but "my *** hurts" is okay. Staff should use judgement in warning members who ask if certain things are vulgar. If the member appears genuine, the staffer should answer the question via IM or E-Mail, or refer the member to Keyword: TOS if they feel uncomfortable answering; they should also suggest that the member restrict future questions to E-Mail or IMs. If the member begins to use the "question" format to spout vulgarity, the member should be given a friendly reminder to keep such things to private communication. If the member continues, a warning is in order. If a phrase comes up that is not listed here, use your judgement to decide whether to warn the member, and send E-Mail to your online supervisor to obtain an official decision. 69 - rooms (sexual) adultery - OK anti-AOL - (6) anti-Guide/Staff - (6) ass - (5) bare skin - OK bears - OK bearskin - OK bi - OK bitch - (2) blow (job) - vulgar bondage - vulgar bound to tease - (Rooms) boys - rooms clit - vulgar cock - vulgar come - (3) cornhole - vulgar couples - OK cross dressing - rooms cum - (3) cunnilingus - vulgar cunt - vulgar damn - OK defecation - vulgar dick - vulgar do me - rooms dom - rooms domination - rooms douche - vulgar dykes - (11) erotic - rooms and so on, until ... VULGAR: Unconditionally vulgar. ROOMS: Vulgar in room names or screen names. ROOMS (SEXUAL): Vulgar in room names or screen names if possibly sexual. These words are only allowed in screen names or room names if other phrases clearly make them not sexual. For instance, a member may not create a room "Oral," but "Oral Roberts" is permitted. " Slaves here" is not allowed, but "Free the slaves" is. "Jimmy69" would be fine, but "Ilike69" would have to be deleted. OK: Acceptable. These words do not, in and of themselves, constitute vulgarity or sexual connotations. 1 * who want *: If referring to people, this is not allowed in room names. For instance, "Men who want women" is vulgar, while " Men who want a car" is not. 2. Bitch: Vulgar if an insultable person, place, or thing is being called a bitch. "Life's a bitch" is fine, "My mom is a bitch" is vulgar. 3. Come/cum: Vulgar if used in a possibly sexual manner. "Cum over here" is fine, "I come when I think if you" isn't. 4. GIF/Graphic Exchange: While not vulgar, this is not allowed in room names due to the probability of illegal GIFs being exchanged. 5. Suck/Ass/Fart/Piss: Vulgar if used in a possibly or probably sexual/vulgar manner ("suck me", "kiss my ass", "I just farted"), or if an insultable person, place, or thing is said to be this. "The Redskins suck" is fine, "Life sucks" is fine, "Jimmy sucks" is not fine. "Nirvana Kicks ass" is OK, "Jenny is an ass" is not. "Rich is an old fart" is OK, "You should hear my brother Fart" is not. "I'm pissed off" is OK, "Piss on you" is not. Exception: A member may say that AOL, or any manifestation such as the Hosts/Forum Staff, sucks. 6. Anti-AOL: We do not want to appear to censor members who speak out against us. Anti-AOL comments, or comments protesting manifestations of AOL such as Hosts, should not warrant a warning. However, comments which insult or harass individual Guides or AOL employees should warrent a warning. 7. Racial Issues: Racial slurs are not allowed. Rooms promoting racism (KKK Unite) are not allowed, but discussion of racial issues (KKK Discussion) are. 8. Hot, wet: These are borderline words. Use your judgement, and consider it vulgar if they're talking about "hot" as in sex, or "wet" as in feminine moisture. Hot men/women/cars/videos/etc. are fine, as "hot" could be referring to "good looking" or some other non-sexual thing. 9. Nudity: Discussion of nudity is fine; nude room names are a judgement call. 10. Sex: This is a judgement call. "Sexy" is fine, as an adjective. The word should never appear in room names or screen names as a noun (ILikeSex). In other situations, use the context to determine whether the member was committing a TOS violation. For instance, "Hey babe, anyone here wanna have sex" would be a violation. "I didn't let my child see the movie because of the sex in it" would not be a violation. 11. Dykes/Queers: This is OK if a member is refering to themselves. If it is used "against" someone then it is warnable. However, this word requires judgement. __________________ Issa Clubb issa@voyagerco.com Voyager Art Dept. (212) 343-4213 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 21:10:51 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: e-rngan poetics Briefish afterthought for those still curious. The renga project asks some provocative questions about 'authorship'. Not that there aren't antecedents in the exquisite corpse of the Surrealists. I collaborated with Steve Benson and Allen Fisher about 10 years back on a piece published in Sulfur under the title 'Assumptions Table', The text doesn't identify who said what in the transcript of a live performance. Curiously with the passage of time we would probably all three have difficulty in registering who said what, for at least part of the text. I've frequently discussed publishing some of my work anonymously and am one of several people in the UK who have deliberately published under each others' names. (no, I'm not telling and yes I know about Hakim Bey) 'Authorship' is worth interrogating and perhaps especially in the contexts of cultural studies. love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 21:17:36 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Poetry and the Academy Jeff Hansen writes: >Rather, I'm interested in what happens to intellectuals (may I still use that >word) who have been university trained (perhaps in a highly innovative manner >such as myself--Beloit College and The SUNY-Buffalo English program), and >leave academia for greener pastures. Do some give up on writing and thinking? >Or do others, like me, try to squeeze it into incredibly busy schedules? My experience with artists and intellectuals is that, yes, some do give it up, but that a lot don't. And a lot of those that don't give it up, though, aren't necessarily very public about what they do. I tend to imagine that there are a lot of marvelous artists who never get their work to a public. >Unlike Charles Alexander, I left academia not because I didn't want it, but >because it didn't want me. Not so much that I didn't want it, but that it wasn't what I wanted it to be, and I found what to me at the time was more satisfying. But believe me, the life of an artist outside the academy has its problems, too, and its insecurities are more apparent to me now that I am a parent of two children than they were to me when some choices were made 16 or 17 years ago. Still, I generally have no regrets, although sometimes I do. >But now I am beginning to look at nonacademic life as a blessing: I don't >have to worry about publishing in certain places or publishing the right kind >of thing. Not ever having to write critical articles/papers has freed my prose >in ways I like. While I do enjoy reading some academic prose, I did find that >too much exposure to it limits me. >Now, my thinking and writing are hobbies rather than a profession. And, as a >long-time critic of "professionalism," I like that. I think I agree with what you're saying here, but I don't think the word "hobby" quite does justice. Maybe a passion rather than a profession. Or a life rather than a profession. Not that there aren't many within professions to whom the thinking & writing is the life. >Since there are others like me, maybe this situation is good. Maybe the >freedom to think and write without institutional constraints will make us more >interesting and interested, less "fashionable", more true to our own evolving >engagements. I know that it is a cliche, but academia does stultify thinking >in many ways, many of which have been outlined in this discussion Yes, but there is still the struggle to simply find the time to do the work. I admire the way Sheila Murphy manages it, the way Ron Silliman manages it, but it still is a daily struggle. Although I think those of us outside the academy tend to think universities GIVE professors the time to pursue their own work, while the truth may be more complicated than that. And it's not just time, but time & money. For example, there are many conferences and festivals mentioned in this forum. For someone not able to tap travel allowances from departments or universities, getting to even one such event a year (and experiencing the give-and-take with one's peers) can be difficult. >Three cheers for renegade poet/thinkers. hooray hooray hooray Charles Alexander Chax Press P.O. Box 19178 Minneapolis, MN 55419-0178 612-721-6063 (phone & fax) chax@mtn.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 21:21:38 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Poetry and the Academy >i'd rather that talented folks who DON'T earn a living as writers STILL be >regarded "professionals"... i'd rather that, again, some "we" appropriates >this latter term and disengages it from "making a living"... but again my >ambivalence---i just see no other way to mount any sustained resistance to >more orthodox pressures, esp. these days... I am not certain I understand who you're talking about -- I mean, are the talented folks who DO earn their living as writers the very few who are outside the academy other fields, rather those who actually earn their living from royalties and readings? I don't think of academics as people who earn a living as writers; but I also don't think of those of us who work in other fields for a living as such -- yet I do think of all of us as equals in the work of writing. Charles Alexander Chax Press P.O. Box 19178 Minneapolis, MN 55419-0178 612-721-6063 (phone & fax) chax@mtn.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 23:02:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: More on poetry and cultural studies what's all this i hear about pottery and cultural studies? what's all this i hear about popery and cult studs? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 14:37:37 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Bouchard/College/hmco Subject: Testimony: Dr. Owens Wiwa Comments: cc: drothschild This was downloaded from the Greenpeace Web page. daniel_bouchard@hmco.com ____________________ TRANSCIPT OF 'A TESTIMONY' BY DR. OWENS WIWA (Brother of Ken Saro Wiwa) Steering Commitee Member of the Movement for the Survival of the Ogoni People (MOSOP) PREPARED BY GREENPEACE ON BEHALF OF THE MOVEMENT FOR THE SURVIVAL OF THE OGONI PEOPLE FIRST MEETING WITH BRIAN ANDERSON I first met Brian Anderson the chairman and managing director of Shell Nigeria on the Queens birthday party 1995 in Lagos, and he promises to my wife to help, to see that Ken gets adequate medical attention, he says he will see what he can do and we leave at the end of the party and I write of my encounter to Ken send it through my wife who leaves this day to see Ken and through this letter we are very happy to learn that Ken has been taken to the hospital the military hospital for the first time after being in detention for about 11 months. SECOND MEETING WITH BRIAN ANDERSON Well I asked him if he would use his influence to stop the trial announced so that Ken can get can get out of the illegal detention and so that negotiation can start between Shell and the Ogoni people. And he says that's difficult, but not impossible but that the international campaign is hurting Shell and the Nigerian government and if we can stop the campaign that he might be able to do something. So I tell him that I don't have the power to do that, but however I will pass the information to Ken, and he also at that time said I should try and get into the press - to get a press release and get him a copy, you know mentioning the fact that there is no environmental devastation in Ogoniland and I just say how can I do that, you mean I tell the world that what we've been saying ever since 1990 is a lie, there is no way I will do that. And that happened at our second meeting. THIRD MEETING WITH BRIAN ANDERSON I wrote to Ken and Ken replied back with a letter to Brian Anderson where he gives him two scenarios. The first one - Ken gets killed and becomes a martyr or they [Shell] did the right thing, use their influence with the Nigerian government and get him out of their illegal detention and stop the charade of the tribunal. And when that happens the lobby with the writers will stop, the lobby by the human rights groups will stop and that remains the environmental campaigners and when the environmental lobby sees that he is now discussing with Shell they will lower or stop their campaign. Mr Brian Anderson tells me that he will no longer be available for further discussion as he'll be travelling frequently but that I should continue the discussion with Mr Achebe. Mr Achebe stresses the importance of continuous dialogue and after a week I phone Achebe and I'm told he's in Germany I phone again a second time and I'm told he's in Abucja and I phone again and I'm told he's in Port Harcourt holding meetings with other Ogoni people and I phone another time and he's not in the office and all this time I'm leaving my number and my messages and I don't get any reply so I now switch back to phone Anderson both in his office and in his house. Now I phoned the first time in his house and they tell me he's at a cocktail party I phone another time and he's having lunch and I ask whether I can phone after lunch I don't get any answer, but I still phone and still he's not available and I phone another time and I hear he's not around you know and then I sort if get the message and I write back to Ken that it appears that I'm being avoided and Ken writes back - that I shouldn't bother as it appears a decision has been made. DEVASTATION OF OGONILAND Ogoni environment is devastated. I got involved in Ogoniland after coming back to Ogoni after my University medical school and then the first thing that struck me is that the trees around my father's house the oranges and the guavas are no longer there the ones there are not producing any fruit and they sort of shrunken. Then I go to the hospital and the spectrum of diseases I see there is quite different from the ones I was taught at school or the ones I saw in other places I'd worked in Nigeria. A lot of respiratory diseases - high incidence of asthma, cancer, bronchitis and I'm quite surprised and also some bizarre skin diseases and a high level of miscarriages which is quite different from other areas in Nigeria that are not producing oil. And the land Ogoni is a small place about 404 square miles 12 miles by 32 and large expanse of land that nothing grows on because of the oil spillages that have happened because of oil blow outs gas flares all over Ogoniland. You don't know when it is night it's always glowing. With the noise from the flow stations - it's very deafening and the people speak rather they shout the way of talking because they have to get across to the other person. And the pipe line gas and oil pipelines criss-crossing the whole place on the surface of the ground passing in front of houses at the back of houses on farm land unprotected. SHELL CLAIM SABOTAGE BY OGONI Shell claims that the environmental devastation in Ogoniland is due to sabotage of the installations by Ogoni people, as far as I know no Ogoni person no MOSOP activist has ever been convicted of sabotage of oil installations. The Ogoni people would be the last people on earth to go near the Shell installations because they know that if anything goes wrong on the pipelines or on the installations it is their land which they hold precious that will be spoiled - that will be devastated it is their streams from which they fish and drink water that will be polluted because their is no piped on water in Ogoniland it's only the water from the streams so no Ogoni person will go near any Shell installation for sabotage because that would lead to spillage and we understand spillages and devastated land more than any people in this world. EVIDENCE THAT SHELL ARE INVOLVED WITH MILITARY I drive down to the village of Korokor-tai when I get there I meet another young man on the ground in a pool of blood at the feet of his mother and I'm told that he was shot by Major [Okuntino??] who had come there in the Shell bus accompanied by Shell executives and they had come to the village, said they were coming to look for Shell trucks. In my clinic in Bori Ogoniland I see the police constable coming to my clinic to tell me that all Ogoni people in the police in Ogoni land have been transferred out and I'm scared and he shows me the posting order transferring them and immediately I get to my car because that's frightening and go to visit my brother in hospital and I tell him what I've just heard and give him the police posting order and he immediately writes on it telling the world about what is happening and he's afraid that the first episode of genocide is being planned against the people, the Ogoni people. I see foreign journalists in Bori and I ask what's happening they said they heard that there's shooting a journalist from the Guardian of London and one from the Independent. And I take them to the village Kaa where most of my patients come from and we arrive there and it's like a small atomic bomb has been placed on the village I mean dropped on the village, everything the market is completely destroyed, the school the houses even the trees are on the ground and it is very very frightening and we do know this time there were police, I mean a military presence in Ogoniland. They were stationed not too far from my clinic so I go back to the army and ask them what has happened, and we go back there and they see the place and one of the officials says that he hasn't seen this sort of thing even while he was serving in Liberia that no destruction has ever been to this level and in that particular incident 35 people are killed and it continues like that another 7 Ogoni villages are all destroyed and a total of about one thousand people are killed in these raids by people using sophisticated weapons on unarmed villages and my patients tell me that the soldiers arrived across Andoni river with Shell boats and while all this is going on we notice the presence of Shell helicopters hovering around and we're actually very very worried. DETENTION OF OWENS WIWA On the 26th December 1993 on Boxing day I'm in my house with my wife who's pregnant and her sister as well come to spend Christmas with us and a captain in the Nigerian army Captain Tunde Odina comes in and has a beer in my house and eats the food my wife has prepared and at the end of it he tells me to take a holiday, to leave Ogoniland go to Lagos or somewhere. At about 5 O'clock another Major comes in he calls himself Major Akintola of the Army Intelligence Unit at the Brigade in Bori camp and he tells me that the governor of the state Lieutenant Colonel Komo wants to see me and Barika Idamkue because at this time Barika Idamkue is the secretary of the Ogoni Relief and Rehabilitation Committee and I'm the coordinator so I mean we go there happily thinking that the Governor wants to give some relief to the people so at the end of the conversation I tell him that I was told by a captain, Captain Tunde Odina that I was to be arrested. So the Governor tells me that is not true that is just one of the rumours that we hear and keep telling people and there's nothing like that so I go back to my house have dinner with my family and go to bed. At about 2am the same captain who had come to my house you know to eat and drink comes in shouting, breaking my door and asks where is Dr Wiwa, I say well I'm here and then the other soldiers climb the fence and generally make noise and then I ask what is the matter and he tells me you are, by the order of the Federal Republic of Nigeria you are under arrest. So I go back to my room change into my clothes and go into the 504 military vehicle and the other soldiers enter squeeze me in and they take me straight to the country home of Mr Ledum Mitee the Deputy President of MOSOP and repeat the same sort of thing they did in my house and bring the guy into the car and then the soldiers are coming inside too with their guns reeking of alcohol and marijuana and generally threatening us you know, and took us straight to the Air force base in Port Harcourt and later to the house of the government reservation division in Port Harcourt. And we stayed there until the 4th of January at about 5 O'clock or so Major Okuntimo comes in to meet us and to discuss. We ask him why we are detained he doesn't tell us anything, all he says is he's following his orders and then curiously asks us that since MOSOP is big it's powerful that we should join forces with him you know to see that one Mr Lawson-Jack senior executive of Shell in Port Harcourt is removed and we tell him that we don't do things like that. We talk about ideas and how to change corporate behaviour in terms of the environmental devastation of Ogoniland we are not in for removing individuals and all that and he insist and so we ask him why, why do you want the man off? and then he explains that the man has been undercutting him in his payments that he was also receiving from Shell. And after our discussion he tells us that we are released and on getting out I meet my mother-in-law and I ask about my wife and she answers that they are fine, I say what do you mean they are fine? I only have one wife, so she says they are fine that you have a child I said a child ?, she said yes, a son, I said yes how do I know it's a son I said I dreamt you know but then my wife is not due but I rushed down to the hospital that she's supposed to have delivered and I go in there and see her very happy and beside her there's, there's a young kid you know all red and cries when he sees me and I go and pick up my son and I feel very happy and I decide to forget and forgive my detention because that has brought me a son and asked my wife how everything happens and she tells me that after they are taking me away after some hours when daylight was coming she decides to come and look for me. And at this time there are many roadblocks manned by the army in Ogoniland and she is stopped in one of the roadblocks and she comes out, she is asked to come out of the car, she comes out and they ask her who she is and she tells the person that she's my wife and they say Oh that trouble maker so they ask her to identify herself further , she says she's a housewife and housewives don't carry ID cards. So they search her and they decide to search her person and she doesn't like that and the army man tell her to go into the stream, the stream is polluted covered with oil, my wife doesn't know how to swim. She protests, she gets the gun, they put up the gun pushing her from the back and she is pushed into the pond, into the stream but because of her hydrophobia she comes out and then the man aims the nozzle of the gun at her pregnant abdomen and then contractions start to come on and that process leads her to the hospital and my baby comes out born on January 4th Ogoni day and that's how I get my child. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 18:01:22 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland Subject: Re: Question Comments: To: sjcarll@SLIP.NET dear steve, that was my answer also. And in that vein shouldn't we now ask Tom to put the question: can some one tell me how one knows if one is a novelist? or why that isn't the same question? Wystan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 21:26:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Poetry and the Academy In-Reply-To: <323824.ensmtp@blake.pvt.k12.mn.us> It is possible however lamely to hobble back thirty years later. Tom On Fri, 1 Dec 1995, Jeff Hansen wrote: > In the discussion on poetry in the academy, I have yet to see mention of the > financial crisis in higher education. > > Young people with Ph.D.s who are interested in poetry rarely get hired. > Granted, the situation is bad in every subspecialty of English departments, > but the poetry one seems most acute. > > The situation will probably not end, and, since I am not now in academia and > probably will never return, I 'm not that concerned about it. > > Rather, I'm interested in what happens to intellectuals (may I still use that > word) who have been university trained (perhaps in a highly innovative manner > such as myself--Beloit College and The SUNY-Buffalo English program), and > leave academia for greener pastures. Do some give up on writing and thinking? > Or do others, like me, try to squeeze it into incredibly busy schedules? > > Unlike Charles Alexander, I left academia not because I didn't want it, but > because it didn't want me. > > A few years ago, I couldn't think of a better job for a writer than a > professor--flexible schedule. > > But now I am beginning to look at nonacademic life as a blessing: I don't > have to worry about publishing in certain places or publishing the right kind > of thing. Not ever having to write critical articles/papers has freed my prose > in ways I like. While I do enjoy reading some academic prose, I did find that > too much exposure to it limits me. > > Now, my thinking and writing are hobbies rather than a profession. And, as a > long-time critic of "professionalism," I like that. > > Since there are others like me, maybe this situation is good. Maybe the > freedom to think and write without institutional constraints will make us more > interesting and interested, less "fashionable", more true to our own evolving > engagements. I know that it is a cliche, but academia does stultify thinking > in many ways, many of which have been outlined in this discussion > > Finally, before I appear too anti-academic, let me say that I appreciate how > the academic critics mentioned by Ron Silliman do promote poetry there. It is > one of the institutions where poetry is taken seriously. (but it is not, Hugh > Kenner, the only place that takes care of poetry). Luigi Bob Drake, for one, > creates other places. Three cheers for Taproot Reviews. > > Three cheers for renegade poet/thinkers. > > Best, > > Jeff > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 00:36:48 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: More on poetry and cultural studies In-Reply-To: A more fundamental issue might be: is there any relation between poetry and culture? I know I was taught there is but today I'm not sure what that relation is if it exists. Is there any relation between 10-yr-olds shooting others for neat jackets and culture or is this relation to poetry? In my field which is psychology there is a relation between culture and ppsychology and one between poetry and psychology but these two two relations come from opposite (or at best oblique) directions. Tom Bell ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 04:16:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Poetry and the Academy Chax says, "Although I think those of us outside the academy tend to think universities GIVE professors the time to pursue their own work, while the truth may be more complicated than that." I think that totally depends on where in the educational food chain you happen to be. If you're at an Ivy League school or one of the 20 or so major state funded universities out there, well, maybe. But if you are at a "backwater" state college or small private school, the working conditions and pay can be much worse than they would be if you just went out and got a "regular" job (whatever the hell that is). Cal State teachers are totally overworked. Virtually without exception, they are inundated from the start of the school year until a few weeks beyond the end of the spring term. They do get summers, but it's like packing all your weekends into one package. Even working a 60 hour week, which is pretty common for me, moving twice in one year and raising three year old twins (who are beginning to compete with me for time at this here machine), I'm never as overwhelmed as those folks. And the folks in the junior or community college circuit? That borders on slave labor. I think this "flexible schedule" idea of teaching is pretty much a myth. Plus conferences, once they become "normalized" as an activity, aren't terribly earth shattering events. Far too much angling for position goes on and gets in the way. One thing that has made an impression on me is the Canadian system, in which (correct me if I'm wrong) the two-year school is much more widely recognized as the norm and, accordingly, its professors are given a fair bit more in the way of status if not pay. They're also much more apt to be expected to publish and be professionally involved than is the case at their US equivalent institutions. It makes much greater sense, I think, to consider teaching the hobby. Writing is what I do. Period. Ron ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 09:27:51 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden <74277.1477@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Sheila M., Ron S., Chas. A. Charles Alexander wrote (in part): Yes, but there is still the struggle to simply find the time to do the work. I admire the way Sheila Murphy manages it, the way Ron Silliman manages it, but it still is a daily struggle. Any chance that Sheila Murphy and/or Ron Silliman and/or Charles Alexander would take a few more valuable moments to tell us a bit about how they *do* manage it? Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 09:28:48 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "H. T. KIRBY-SMITH" Organization: University of NC at Greensboro Subject: Question What does MLA stand for? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 10:09:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: More on poetry and cultural studies In-Reply-To: from "David J. Coogan" at Dec 1, 95 10:53:32 am > When I was in grad > school, all of my "cultural studies" friends (who were not in English but in > the Institute for Communications Research at U of Illinois) continually > pressed me about the exclusionary, colonialist politics of English studies, > about the high-cultural bias of literary studies, and repeatedly wanted to > know why on earth one might want to study poetry, and avant-garde at that, in > a culture such as ours. Instrumentalists of the Imagination--whether knee-jerk-neo-con, certain cultural studies types, or what have you--seem to have in common a hatred of any activity that can't be translated into a bottom line, be it monetary or moralist. No wonder the resistance to literary studies. Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 09:41:07 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Poetry and the Academy charles, yes, the equals part of what you say holds... i've no wish to complicate things further by introducing more "levels"... i'm interested in fact in institutional *consolidations*... but here it is: i'm arguing that the designation "professional" may be unavoidable finally if one wishes to be viewed as "legit" by so many powers-that-be... and by "legit" i mean "have a say in"... i'm thinking specifically in political terms here, and i've no doubt this will upset more than a few even on this list, b/c many poetry communities i'm aware of, and writing communities in general, often display a very american bias against "collective" identification except in the most innocent terms... despite the active presence of some very powerful organizations, even more "vested" writers tend to act as though their work is independently sucked up and into the "system"... and those who are not part of this latter network continually decry its more ominous workings... in any case, it's this same sort of bias that prevents academics, in fact, from wanting even to talk about collective bargaining (just had that experience in my dept. again yesterday, and it always begins with "but i thought a professional was---")... i'm landing on the term "professional" in part b/c of the problems i've experienced on my campus (a tech. campus that is beginning to feel more like a business institute)---it's clear to me now what the corporate educational imperatives of the 21st. century will likely be centered around (in the case of my campus, it's motorola that's doing a good portion of the pushing)... and the term "professional" will likely be a key term in this latter development... part of the problem, as i see it, is that the term "professional" (and all of its variants to varying degrees---profession, professor, profess) is generally predicated on earning a living from what one does... i would argue that one can do "professional quality work" and NOT do it for money (isn't this obvious?---but you need resources!)... aside from the obvious reality of un and underemployed professionals, there's simply got to be a way (NOT to capture) but to organize ourselves in formal terms around the value of artist-workers (a touch trotsky here, i know, even utopian) who are *not* a part of academe, mla (modern language association), awp, ncte, etc---by way of opening up these latter organizations, and corresponding markets of distribution, information, learning, what have you ... however obvious this may seem, it's surely not obvious in economic terms... it's precisely the power plays that concern me, and in academe, as well as throughout the growing multinational empire... i'd also want to complicate notions of professional expertise---by which i mean to say that it's no "better" than any form of lay expertise, it's just different... in the professional context i envision, "lay expertise" in writing terms would simply translate to writing by folks who don't think of themselves as writers---and these latter writers would be no "worse" for wear, b/c they would clearly have their own corresponding professional expertise... but i really think that we need new professional identity mechanisms---associations, virtual communities, unions, what have you---that permit for a much broader range of professional legitimacy than orthodox structures currently do (james soskoski, whom i mentioned in an earlier post, uses the term "paraorganizations")... thinking of yourself, jeff, sheila, ron, luigi-bob and others, it seems to me we need new (social) structures and organizations that facilitate such diverse artistic-writing *lives*, and provide us with a formal means, for example, to get "us" academic writing professionals to start to listen more closely to what those "outside" of academe (which latter term alone often puts off many of my non-academic friends!), but with at least as much commitment, are doing... and mebbe in the process we academics will find ways to alter our more exclusive habits, and those on the "outside" will find us less elitist... just to be clear: i'm not at all talking about a "back to basics" ANYTHING... and nothing i say is intended to resonate with ANYTHING coming out of the mouths of gingrich, bennett, & co... in one sense, in fact, i'm asking for more inclusive, and more blatantly political, theorizing... just a start, charles, and necessarily fuzzy and conflicted... perhaps those of you on the "outside" of academe (i'm on the outside too from your pov's, i know) will hear this as just another territorial ploy, but i'm really not about such doings... i simply believe, given the situation all around, that the time has come for more ambitious forms of intellectual activism... and i think i mself am woefully lacking in this regard, which is why i'm busy shooting my mouth off about this around t/here... all best// joe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 09:59:28 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Testimony: Dr. Owens Wiwa and i guess here's where the activism stuff, wrt my neighborhood doings, 'hits the fan,' so to say... as a result of daniel's posts re the nigerian-shell situation (VERY unpleasant reading experience) i've taken to boycotting my local shell gas station, hyde park shell here in chicago... this station is my local gas supplier as well as garage---they do good work for a fair price... and they "know" me (i'm not naive about customer-based relationships, but one seeks such familiarities in an often alienating world)... and most of the employees are from jamaica, though i'm not certain who actually owns the station... in any case, i'm not going there now, and feeling somehow guilty... but by way of protesting the shell-nigeria situation... and instead i'm ending up over at the local mobil... though of course i don't feel "good" about this either... which is precisely the sort of dilemma we've been conditioned into accepting, a perpetual choosing twixt relative evils... anyway: is there any indication at all that shell is responding to public pressure?... joe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 11:02:08 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: Poetry and the Academy > >I think I agree with what you're saying here, but I don't think the word >"hobby" quite does justice. Maybe a passion rather than a profession. Or a >life rather than a profession. That old religious term "vocation" serves nicely. Yes, colleagues see it as a hobby (I'm always baffled by this), and there can be a danger (depending on how you earn your income) in their realizing how serious it is. And certain professions make certain kinds of writing problematic (e.g., explict sexual stuff, if you're a high school teacher or a university dean). Time, a sense of colleagues, and finding out what's good to read are problems, and many thanks to the organizers of this list for helping those of us without easy access to such things. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 13:19:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: More on poetry and cultural studies kevin McGuirK writes lots of smart stuff on p and cs: this is such a gratifying and hackleraising discussion all around --its the first time i've really felt tht i could bring my WHole professional self here --thanks to all, susan schultz, michael greer, ron s, kevin mcg, jeffrey timmons, aldon the wise, kat la lindberg, dkellog, m la perloff, joe l'amato and everyone i've left out! now we're cooking w/ gas/--md ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 14:48:52 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Poetry and the Academy > there's simply got to be a >way (NOT to capture) but to organize ourselves in formal terms around the >value of artist-workers (a touch trotsky here, i know, even utopian) who >are *not* a part of academe, mla (modern language association), awp, ncte, >etc---by way of opening up these latter organizations, and corresponding >markets of distribution, information, learning, what have you ... Joe, I really agree with what you're trying to say & do. But my recent experience on the alternative institutional side (well, not so alternative, but not academic, rather in the nonprofit artistic world) makes me severely question the "formal organization" or institutionalization of art on any & all levels. The best-laid plans of mice & men have a way of going really haywire where boards of directors & artistic power struggles & philanthropical goals & means come into the picture. I hate to think this distrust is going to take me even farther into some outsider status, which is not what I seek. Just that my idealism, which has held up through my fourth decade, may be starting to crumble. >but i really think that we need new professional identity >mechanisms---associations, virtual communities, unions, what have >you---that permit for a much broader range of professional legitimacy than >orthodox structures currently do Yes, but in line with what I say above, I would want these mechanisms to be as flexible and informal as possible. charles Charles Alexander Chax Press P.O. Box 19178 Minneapolis, MN 55419-0178 612-721-6063 (phone & fax) chax@mtn.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 15:53:48 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Perez Subject: renga/collaboration 1. a few days ago there was a discussion about renga/collaborative poetry. I heard from a friend (Dan) that Leslie Scallapino and someone else (sorry forgot the second person) were working on a long collaborative poem. Is it being done over the net? If so/if not, where can I find it in print or elsewhere. Thanks. 2. someone had mentioned Rita Dove, which made me think of Sesame St. (of course). Hey, why doesn't C. Bernstein get on Sesame and disseminate to the young people. Better yet Michael Palmer and his daughter(?)/collaborative partner Sarah ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 13:09:29 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: Question At 09:28 AM 12/2/95 EST, H.T. wrote: >What does MLA stand for? Modern Language Association, I believe. Steve ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 13:20:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Question > >What does MLA stand for? > Mythic Luggage Anthropomorphized ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 13:46:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Sheila M., Ron S., Chas. A. >Any chance that Sheila Murphy and/or Ron Silliman and/or Charles >Alexander would take a few more valuable moments to tell us a bit >about how they *do* manage it? > >Rachel Loden > At one (fairly trivial) level, it's time management. I do 90% of my writing, maybe more, before 6:00 AM (I work from 8:00 AM to 7:00 PM most days and don't get a chance to get back to anything vaguely literary or intellectual until the kids are in bed, which is around 9:30 if we're lucky.) Generally I work to midnight. Evenings tend to be for reading or the telly if I feel brain dead. At another level, I've found a form that enabled me to construct materials compiled in relatively short segments. Having children has cut back on my critical writing fairly significantly, although the absence of any really good venues for the kinds of pieces I do hasn't helped any (I have throughout my career often been prodded by specific assignments). There's no talk series in Philadelphia. Beyond that, I find the rub of other kinds of human beings that I meet in my daily work environment enormously useful to my writing and psychic life, a much broader group than I was ever exposed to at any educational institution. Also, when I feel gorged from excessive work, a poem doesn't look like my job, if you know what I mean. When I have taught, I've counseled students to the fact that the largest reason X becomes a widely published poet and Y does not may well be that X has found a way to integrate writing into his/her life. For many students, school is the way they negotiate that integration and leaving it throws them. Life is full of incentives to not write. You really have to have a passion for the process of writing as much as anything else. I've written virtually every day since I was 10, just under four decades. As Stein noted, a few sentences a day and it will add up. Ron ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 16:59:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Testimony: Dr. Owens Wiwa thank you, daniel bouchard, for your forward from dr owens wiwa.--mdamon ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 17:00:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: More on poetry and cultural studies tom bell, my fellow rengamaniac, writes: more fundamental issue might be: is there any relation between poetry and culture? I know I was taught there is but today I'm not sure what that relation is if it exists. Is there any relation between 10-yr-olds shooting others for neat jackets and culture or is this relation to poetry? tom: check out reg e. gaines' cd "please don't take my air jordans." while the poem of that title doesn't explicitly theorize its own relationship to teen-teen murder for commodities, it exists as a strong statement about the phenomenon, and thru its ironic dedication "to spike and mike and all the kids who've died" etc, widens the scope of the poem to include a subtextual analysis/critique of the role of cultural icons (spike lee, mike jordan) who participate in commodification rites thru appearing in advertizements, etc.--md ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 17:00:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Poetry and the Academy ron s rites: It makes much greater sense, I think, to consider teaching the hobby. Writing is what I do. Period. to which i say hurrah, that is the most inspiring thing i've read in a while.--md ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 16:53:23 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Poetry and the Academy charles, you've hit on precisely the reason for my stated ambivalence regarding the "professional" as i'm provoking same... i can hear it already---"professional poets?---c'mon joe!"... but i mean, like, why not?... really though: i don't have an answer, in short... the best way i know to deal with such issues is to go 'theoretical' with identity formations and the like even as one pushes for more solidarity, solidarity predicated on dissensus as much as consensus... i think there's a distinction to be drawn twixt political action (what's necessary, i mean) and substantive intellectual differences... but of course one domain ultimately impacts on the other, and it's precisely in this space of collision that the problems (and anxieties) you suggest emerge... so i guess i'm at a loss here, and could use some help... joe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 19:32:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lisa Samuels Subject: Re: Question In-Reply-To: <199512022120.NAA28101@ix6.ix.netcom.com> from "Ron Silliman" at Dec 2, 95 01:20:43 pm according to Ron Silliman: > > > > >What does MLA stand for? > > > Mythic Luggage Anthropomorphized > Many Languid Anthologizers More Lively Assertions Most Literate Avengers Marked Lateral Artists My Loves Assembled &c lisa s. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 20:00:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Question In-Reply-To: <199512030032.TAA120190@darwin.clas.Virginia.EDU> My list accumulates... On Sat, 2 Dec 1995, Lisa Samuels wrote: > according to Ron Silliman: > > > > > > > >What does MLA stand for? > > > > > Mythic Luggage Anthropomorphized > > > > Many Languid Anthologizers > More Lively Assertions > Most Literate Avengers > Marked Lateral Artists > My Loves Assembled > > &c > lisa s. > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 20:11:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: Question In-Reply-To: On Sat, 2 Dec 1995, Alan Sondheim wrote: > My list accumulates... > > On Sat, 2 Dec 1995, Lisa Samuels wrote: > > > according to Ron Silliman: > > > > > > > > > > >What does MLA stand for? > > > > > > > Mythic Luggage Anthropomorphized > > > > > > > Many Languid Anthologizers > > More Lively Assertions > > Most Literate Avengers > > Marked Lateral Artists > > My Loves Assembled More Layoffs Ahead Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 684-6277 "Yexplication is yexploration." ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 01:28:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: More on poetry and cultural studies In-Reply-To: <951202170016_42092120@mail04.mail.aol.com> Maria, yes, the poetic thrust is clear and direct though while the cultural tie is vague and loopy - competition:race:violence:race:privilege advertising: I think this is what I meant. On Sat, 2 Dec 1995, Maria Damon wrote: > tom bell, my fellow rengamaniac, writes: > > more fundamental issue might be: is there any relation between > poetry and culture? I know I was taught there is but today > I'm not sure what that relation is if it exists. Is there any > relation between 10-yr-olds shooting others for neat jackets > and culture or is this relation to poetry? > > tom: check out reg e. gaines' cd "please don't take my air jordans." while > the poem of that title doesn't explicitly theorize its own relationship to > teen-teen murder for commodities, it exists as a strong statement about the > phenomenon, and thru its ironic dedication "to spike and mike and all the > kids who've died" etc, widens the scope of the poem to include a subtextual > analysis/critique of the role of cultural icons (spike lee, mike jordan) who > participate in commodification rites thru appearing in advertizements, > etc.--md > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 05:11:44 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden <74277.1477@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Charles A. on "managing" (fwd) Charles Alexander sent this to me backchannel, and said that I could send it on if I thought it of interest to all of POETICS, which I certainly do. Perhaps he would have wanted me to leave off the first paragraph, in which his small daughter plays behind him--but I can't bear to, because we are talking about a life enmeshed in just such complexities. Thanks, too, to Ron for letting us have a glimpse of him at what? four, five a.m.? laying down the words. Which is what he does. What we do. I would encourage anyone to jump in on this "managing" thread. Maybe it would begin to break down some of the isolation that leads to "nights of the long knives." Anyway, hope this (forwarding) works: >Charles Alexander wrote (in part): > >Yes, but there is still the struggle to simply find the time to do the work. >I admire the way Sheila Murphy manages it, the way Ron Silliman manages it, >but it still is a daily struggle. > >Any chance that Sheila Murphy and/or Ron Silliman and/or Charles >Alexander would take a few more valuable moments to tell us a bit >about how they *do* manage it? > >Rachel Loden Rachel -- I don't know that the facts of such managing are all that interesting, but I'll try. I also don't know if you think the whole list would be interested in this. If you do, you can either forward it, or ask me to send it to the list. This was all written on the fly with my 2-year old behind me wanting me to play with her, so with lots of interruptions. But that's the way such a life goes. There was a day in 1984 in Madison Wisconsin when I was complaining about wanting to move out of Madison & do "my work" virtually all the time, rather than continuing in about three or four part-time jobs I was doing (teaching poetry at a local community college's evening classes, teaching through correspondence for UW-Extension, and being a rare book library assistant, primarily). A good friend who is now an important part of the Seattle visual/performance art world, Chris Bruch, just said, "Charles, just do it -- you'll always find ways to make money." That simple sentence did it for me. That summer I moved Vandercook printing press & everything to Tucson and for most of the next ten years wrote, made books, etc. Friends began to come from east, west, & midwest (everyone loves to go to the desert), & I began organizing readings, concerts, talks, etc. -- which led me to incorporate Chax as a nonprofit organization, with a few co-conspirators as board members. Later we got some people on the board who could donate some money & help raise some. But at its best Chax was able to pay me a salary of about 12K a year, and that was never regular or consistent. But the work grew and I did have interns helping and eventually as much as a half-time assistant (Lisa Bowden, who, when I left Tucson in 1993, began Kore Press). Funds came from book sales, a few projects for hire, National Endowment for the Arts, Arizona Commission on the Arts, Tucson/Pima Arts Council, DeGrazia Foundation, and some individual donors. No individual ever gave more than $1,000. The biggest grants were from the NEA, $12,000. Once I received a 3-month individual fellowship to do readings and events in downtown Tucson, $5,000. Never did Chax Press have an annual budget of more than $35,000. I took on various projects as a free-lancer, including designing ads, logos, and, occasionally, books -- including books for other literary presses, for individuals, and in one case for a philanthropic foundation. These books ranged from letterpress works to works designed on a computer for wider production and circulation. It was never a very good living, but we survived. My wife is a visual artist (mostly a painter, but has made some installations and other large-scale works), and she was selling works. For most of the years in Tucson we shared a large (3,000 sq. ft.) old warehouse studio -- sometimes she could pay the rent, sometimes I could, sometimes it was a combination. These were good years, with lots & lots of good people, including bringing folks to town like Karen Mac Cormack, Steve McCaffery, Lyn Hejinian, Leslie Scalapino, Kit Robinson, Lydia Davis, Steve Nelson-Raney, Thomas Gaudynski, Charles Bernstein, Susan Bee, Beverly Dahlen, Nathaniel Tarn, Ron Silliman, Daphne Marlatt, Kamau Brathwaite, Robert Creeley, Nathaniel Mackey, Mei-mei Berssenbrugge, and many more -- also presenting local writers like Lisa Cooper, Steven Kranz, Mark Weiss, Barbara Kingsolver (before she became a famous novelist), Leslie Marmon Silko, Joy Harjo with her band, and many more. Most of these people were in Chax Press events (talks, residencies, readings); some came for the Tucson Poetry Festival, of which I was the executive director (an unpaid position) for a couple of years, and for which I was on the board of directors for several years. Tucson was a terrific place to make things happen, and people there were appreciative, good audiences. We were, for a while, probably the major alternative to the university of arizona's poetry center, and clearly presented something different than they did. And I can't say enough good things about the local community which I came to love & find most supportive, which included some literary people like Lisa Cooper & Steven Kranz & Tenney Nathanson & Michael Magoolaghan & Bill Marsh, some book arts people like Lisa Bowden & Nancy Solomon & Ellen McMahon, as well as music folks, video artists, lots of visual artists, and more. One of the great things about it was that it was not cordoned off as writers in one place, visual artists in another place, composers in another -- it had lots of give & take among artists. And my role in it, I would say (since you're asking about how I "managed"), barely survived, but survived well. How it did so, I'm tempted to say, was just by willpower -- that I had to make it work. But lots of people helped. Then when my first daughter was born in 1989, I thought it might not be possible, and took a job as a children's book editor for a local publisher -- a job I liked, but which was short-lived because the publisher was losing money fast. And I was not unhappy to see the job go, and get back to what I liked doing better and to a schedule, hectic and irregular as it may be, which suited me. I'm not nearly as disciplined about time as Sheila Murphy seems to be, and I can't say it got easier with the years, but then my situation, with a growing family, changed with the years as well. Before our second daughter was born in 1993, Minnesota Center for Book Arts came calling -- seemingly out of the blue. I had been recommended, had upon request provided a resume, and suddenly I was hired, if I wanted the job. Given the circumstances, a salary over 40K sounded good, and it seemed like a chance to take my ideas and visions into a larger, more stable organization in a larger community. This is perhaps the biggest mistake I made. I was able to accomplish a lot -- but the organization wanted a manager more than an artist, and neither of us was wholly satisfied. So it lasted two years, during which Chax didn't get done nearly as much as I wanted, and I didn't get done nearly as much as I wanted. So now I'm back to working for myself, building freelance writing & design work into a business, and who knows how the next page will be written. We want to move back to Tucson and make it work, but perhaps in different ways, there. It's a more creative place, at least for me, than is the Twin Cities. I've been told that I just don't speak midwestern, if you can imagine what that may mean. So, you ask how I manage it --I've given you a brief history, perhaps more & different than you wanted. I've managed it with difficult, on the other hand I think I've managed it as well as I could have, and (mostly) have no regrets. charles Charles Alexander Chax Press P.O. Box 19178 Minneapolis, MN 55419-0178 612-721-6063 (phone & fax) chax@mtn.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 10:24:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wendy Battin Subject: mla >What does MLA stand for? 1. Major Limbic Anxiety 2. Math Loathers Anonymous ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:14:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: mla In-Reply-To: Meta-Linguistic Authorities? Musty Librarians Anonymous? Mutant Literature Assassins! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 11:29:19 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Susan E. Dunn" Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 29 Nov 1995 to 30 Nov 1995 And I quote: dg> -- Grad students are arrogant brats, for the most part. Not helped by dg> having undergrad profs treat them like the next hot thing when they dg> are sophomores -- helps them not do the deep & self-questioning work dg> they need to do which might include learning to really read closely dg> and productively. Easier to get at _Villette_ on breastfeeding than dg> to Zukofsky (but note here the growing amount, some of it good, of dg> c.s. work on Stein). But this is a professional problem, one the dg> "profession" itself and profs need to correct in terms of their dg> professional/personal relations with students, and less a problem dg> of the "method" of c.s. I've yet to see an instance of a probing, dg> productive, provocative paper on just about any subject that won't dg> make it into one of the 20 or 30 top-flight journals, many of which dg> rarely refuse papers due to "subject matter" dg> (counterexamples?). If that's hegemony I'll live with it. dg> -- dg> dgolumbia@iddis.com dg> David Golumbia Excuse me if I have missed the irony in the diatribe above. Perhaps David Golumbia was impersonating an insufferabe prig for the sake of humor. But as a recently emancipated "brat" (who was never treated as the next hot thing that's for damn sure and who never wrote on breastfeeding in Villette, but the example is an interesting one regarding the speaker's anxieties about scholarship and nineteenth century women writers) you'll have to forgive me if I am having trouble reading the tone of the missive above. Maybe I need more training in close-reading to get at the gist of all this, but I think a lack of self-questioning is a shortcoming of more than just Golumbia's arrogant brat grad students. Of course, the most obvious statement to be made here is that the biggest "professional problem" we have is this kind of despicable pedagogy. I don't necessarily assume that this represents the poetics list in its entirety but my experience has shown that it does represent a pervading attitude about students (undergraduate and graduate alike) and the scholarship they produce. -- Susan E. Dunn sedunn@s-word.stanford.edu "The chief and primary cause of this very rapid increase of nervousness is modern civilization which is distinguished by five characteristics: steam power, the periodical press, the telegraph, the sciences, and the mental activity of women. - George Beard "American Nervousness" 1881 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:21:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Question Mouthing loaded assignments Meeting lucky advertisements Modern lovers, already married Let arguments melt like air... Maybe Lucinda acknowledges Mystified loose action Macho longing activates (more luggage again) My losses answer madness Like avalanches making lunch As martyrs leave apartments (Misery Loves Albany) Most likely actors langourous all morning lasting arguments matter listening anger mounts limpid afternoon ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 15:03:56 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Galen Cope Subject: Re: Question More Literary Antagonism? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 20:17:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Question Months Lie Angularly Mention Lacan Approvingly Meatmarkets Love Artists Magnify Libido Abstinance but remember Malvolio Looks Absurd..... Mingle Like Alchemy! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 21:01:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Re: Poetry and the Academy joe amato wrote: >>it's clear to me now what the corporate >>educational imperatives of the 21st. century >>will likely be centered around (in the case >>of my campus, it's motorola that's doing >>a good portion of the pushing). I'm curious about motorola's "desire." What is a good student or a good matriculated student in their terms? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 22:49:13 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: Poetry and the Academy as we consider how to institutionalize our selves/work, thot this might be ov interest... begin forwarded message: ***** THE SEVEN BY NINE SQUARES DISSOLVE ~The Seven by Nine Squares~, Neoist Web site at will cease to exist on March 24, 1996. As you read this, ~The Seven by Nine Squares~ have already begun to dissolve; documents and references are daily being crippled or erased until the site has disappeared. The E-Mail address will remain functional and revert to use by its former owners. Before March 24, 1996, an installation package mirroring ~The Seven by Nine Squares~ in its current state can be obtained upon request, either by FTP or on three Macintosh disks. Mail delivery is free for those who wish to install mirrors or mutants in the Internet. After March 24, 1996, a copy of this text will be mailed to anyone who writes concerning ~The Seven by Nine Squares~. MERCILESS MEMORY "Arkhe" names at once the commencement and the commandment. "Archive" comes from the Greek "arkheion": initially a house, the residence of the superior magistrates, the archons. On account of their publicly recognized authority, it is at their home that official documents are filed. The archons are first of all the documents' guardians. Their house marks an institutional passage from the private to the public. With such a status, the documents are only kept and classified under the title of the archive by virtue of a privileged topology: To shelter itself and sheltered, to conceal itself. Perhaps, nothing in the entire prehistory of humans is more terrible and uncannier than their mnemotechnics. "You burn something in to keep it in mind: only those things which never cease to hurt will remain in memory" - it's an axiom of the most ancient (and, unfortunately, most persistent) psychology on earth. It always meant torture, blood and victims when humans considered it necessary to construct themselves a memory; the most horrible victims, the most unspeakable mutilations, the most gruesome rites in all religious cults - all that is rooted in an instinct which discovered pain as the most powerful tool of mnemonics. "The spanking machine", she explained, "is a brandnew achievement of our time, or, to say it better, our culture. Once plugged to electricity, it will get in immediate motion. Of course, you have to adjust in advance the number, the efficacy and the kind of blows. Once a lesson is fixed, it will be taught under any circumstance: and that's the great advantage! Mercy is made technically impossible." The cruelty of the alphabet has nothing to do with willful or "natural" violence. It is the dynamics of culture itself, a culture which materialized in the bodies it inscribes and manipulates. This culture is not an ideology, but violently introduces desire into production and production into desire. For death, punishment, suffering are desired. They turn humans or their organs into parts of the social machine. And if "writing" is inscription right into the flesh, it means indeed that speech presupposes writing and that it's this cruel system of inscribed signs which enables humans to use language and gives them a memory of words and speech. MONTY CANTSIN ***** end forwarded message lbd ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 23:58:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joshua N Schuster Subject: Re: sponse to Ron Ron Silliman wrote: > > At another level, I've found a form that enabled me to construct > materials compiled in relatively short segments. Having children has > cut back on my critical writing fairly significantly, although the > absence of any really good venues for the kinds of pieces I do hasn't > helped any (I have throughout my career often been prodded by specific > assignments). There's no talk series in Philadelphia. Not yet in Philadelphia. But the venue is in the work. Look for such an inclusive series at Upenn in fall '96, run by students with the valuable help of some friends. -joshua ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 00:12:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kenneth Sherwood Subject: EPCLIVE EVENT / Monday Night EPCLIVE will host its third online event this Monday night from 6:30pm EST to 8:00pm. It's our first experiment at an "OPEN FIELD" session, which we intend to be a collaborative improvisation. Please feel free to join in; there's no required reading to prepare for this seminar! Specifics are available at http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/epclive or you can query me sherwood@acsu.buffalo.edu or Loss Glazier (lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu) personally. Be sure to include a catchy subject line (like "I want my EPCLIVE" so we answer in time for the event. As always, results of interest will be conveyed to the assembly. ____________________________________________________________________________ Kenneth Sherwood | Dept English v001pxfu@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu | 618 Clemens Hall sherwood@acsu.cc.buffalo.edu | SUNY @ Buffalo |_______Buffalo, NY 14214___________ RIF/T mail: e-poetry@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu Electronic Poetry Center (Web address): gopher://writing.upenn.edu/hh/internet/library/e-journals/ub/rift _____________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 00:23:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kenneth Sherwood Subject: Professional poetry I recall a friend (from Spain / France?) new to the U.S. and still reeling with idiomatic-lag remarking on how strange it seemed that Americans primary social icebreaker was "what do you do?" (which of course meant: What's your job? and Do you make more than I do? and Is it worth my time to play golf with you?) I'm not quite comfortable thinking of poetry as a hobby any more than I'd want to deny the clear fact of the labor-for-money most of us are engaged in. But there does seem to be a 'lack' in the language and modes of living if the choices are so clear cut. k.s. ____________________________________________________________________________ Kenneth Sherwood | Dept English v001pxfu@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu | 618 Clemens Hall sherwood@acsu.cc.buffalo.edu | SUNY @ Buffalo |_______Buffalo, NY 14214___________ RIF/T mail: e-poetry@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu Electronic Poetry Center (Web address): gopher://writing.upenn.edu/hh/internet/library/e-journals/ub/rift _____________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 08:41:51 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeff Hansen Organization: The Blake School Subject: Poetry and the academy I hope I'm not getting overly technical in my use of words, but here goes. A lot of people have commented on my use of the word "hobby" to describe my writing interests as opposed to what I do to make a living. I consider "hobby" to be a more important and valued word than"profession." I know so few people who love their work; hobbies by definition are acts of love. Obviously, my associations with the word "hobby" are idiosyncratic. I guess most people associate it with putzing. If you like, please substitue Chax's "passion" for my "hobby." Take care, jeff ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 10:16:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: Question In-Reply-To: <01HYDT3PJITU8Y7M1X@cnsvax.albany.edu> On Sun, 3 Dec 1995, Chris Stroffolino wrote: > Months Lie Angularly > Mention Lacan Approvingly > Meatmarkets Love Artists > Magnify Libido Abstinance > but remember > Malvolio Looks Absurd..... > Mingle Like Alchemy! My friend Kevin Farley says it stands for Many Lemmings Assemble Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 684-6277 "Yexplication is yexploration." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 10:31:26 EST Reply-To: dgolumbia@iddis.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Golumbia Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 29 Nov 1995 to 30 Nov 1995 > Susan E. Dunn sedunn@s-word.stanford.edu wrote: > > Excuse me if I have missed the irony in the diatribe above. Perhaps > David Golumbia was impersonating an insufferabe prig for the sake of > humor. But as a recently emancipated "brat" (who was never treated as > the next hot thing that's for damn sure and who never wrote on > breastfeeding in Villette, but the example is an interesting one > regarding the speaker's anxieties about scholarship and nineteenth > century women writers) you'll have to forgive me if I am having > trouble reading the tone of the missive above. Maybe I need more > training in close-reading to get at the gist of all this, but I think > a lack of self-questioning is a shortcoming of more than just > Golumbia's arrogant brat grad students. Of course, the most obvious > statement to be made here is that the biggest "professional problem" > we have is this kind of despicable pedagogy. I don't necessarily > assume that this represents the poetics list in its entirety but my > experience has shown that it does represent a pervading attitude about > students (undergraduate and graduate alike) and the scholarship they > produce. I probably deserved the "insufferable prig" for my "arrogant brat," so I will take the criticism at face value. But Ms. Dunn's comments make no sense to me unless she thinks I'm a professor, which I'm not. I was talking about my experience of grad school as a student -- the way so many of the students who "succeed" do so not by challenging themselves but by specifically doing what the profs want them to do. I'm not sure how that is a "priggish" criticism, or a "priggish" attitude toward students, nor how much of the passage Ms. Dunn quoted could be termed a "despicable pedagogy" or any pedagogy at all. I thought many of my peers got by on networking not interesting thinking. That seems pretty clear to me from my original message. How is the *recommendation* to do interesting, challenging, self-critical work "the biggest 'professional problem' we have"?? I agree that too few professors do that kind of work as well. Also, the Villette example came from a posting of Marjorie Perloff's, so I guess it's her anxieties Ms. Dunn might want to analyze. I just thought it politic to keep to the same example other people had been using. -- dgolumbia@iddis.com David Golumbia ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 09:48:17 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Poetry and the Academy bill, 'fore i try to answer that question, lemme make one thing clear: i understand that most of the students i teach (esp. given that i'm currently teaching half-time in a prof. writing program) go on to work for corporate america, or entrepreneurial america in any case... that doesn't prevent me from having my students ask the same ideological-institutional questions i ask mself (about my institution)... i mean, i don't mount some sort of postindustrial-capitalist critique in my classroom w/o a corresponding critique of my own contested site-practice... this way *nobody* appears to enjoy a free lunch, and i'm not "saving souls" in the classroom... i think it's important to complicate the institutional in general, not simply to decry how nasty a profession "engineering" or "accounting" is (albeit there may always be specific sorts of jobs in any profession that i will continue to have difficulty justifying, and mebbe even specific professions)... anyway, one way to describe what i've heard motorola is looking for in the late nineties (it's been PUT this way at times in meetings on my campus, no shit) is to relate a little incident that occurred shortly after i came to iit (and note that one of the two most powerful folks on our board of trustees is bob galvin, son of the founder and former ceo of motorola)... since this is a bit off-the-wall, mebbe it'll do for an *initial* sense of what's going on at motorola vis-a-vis illinois institute of technology... on a saturday back in fall of 92, the entire iit faculty was asked to attend a motorola training seminar out in the west chicago suburbs, at motorola corporate headquarters... this seminar was designed to inculcate us in motorola's corporate quality control program, which is known in shorthand as QCEL--- quality/creativity/ethics/ leadership (in conjunction with their '6-sigma' approach to standards---'sigma' as in standard of deviation)... QCEL is essentially motorola's reworking of TQM (total quality management)---and let's be certain to give credit where credit it due... motorola is by all accounts a highly successful corporation, this post coming to you courtesy (in part) of their 68030 chip... they have a reputation for providing free and frequent training for all their employees... i might mention that, at iit, the only place writing per se is justified under the QCEL scheme is under L---leadership... i assume the underlying logic here is a matter of words/communication = power etc... however benign or malignant... i only wish i had the talent to describe what it felt like to see internationally renowned scholar-scientists being instructed in the wonders of convergent-divergent thinking... quite a sight... and some made it absolutely clear precisely what they thought of such instruction---WHILE THERE... QCEL fever struck iit shortly thereafter---forms, reports and the like, yknow, sop for bureaucrazies... rumor had it 'we' were indulging galvin in the hope that he would dig deep into his pockets and throw something like $10 mil our way... never happened (and in fact QCEL mutated into a million dollar "national commission" and, once our board refused to cough up the bread to offset our "losses," the present crisis management strategies we're currently experiencing)... in any case, the coup de grace of the QCEL affair was galvin having a copy of a book he wrote, _the idea of ideas_, distributed gratis to all faculty... it appeared in my mailbox with no warning whatever... let's have a look at it... title page (** = boldface): THE *IDEA* OF IDEAS BY ROBERT W. GALVIN Motorola University Press [!] Schaumburg, Illinois 1991 the *idea*, i know!... to give you some idea of the "quality" of the production etc., i read from the verso of the title page the following: Special Limited Edition published in April 1991 by Motorola University Press Typeset in Perpetua by Paul Baker Typography, Inc., Evanston, Illinois. Five thousand copies printed [our faculty numbered at that time around 300] by Congress Printing Company, Chicago, Illinois. Soft cover in Mohawk Artemis, Navy Blue; cloth cover is Arrestox B, B48650. End sheets are French Speckletone, Briquette; text stock is Mohawk Superfine, Soft White. Binding by Zonne Book Binders, Inc., Chicago, Illinois. Design by Hayward Black & Company, Evanston, Illinois. Illustration on page 6 by Noli Novak. Quotation on cover by Robert W. Galvin. this latter quotation, indicative of the "quality" of the writing in general, follows: "We can and should apply consciously, confidently, purposely and frequently, the simpler, satisfying, appropriate steps to create more and then better ideas." you can understand why i keep this item, no?... anyway, a more direct way to answer your question, w/o acquiescence to the various forms of lip-service (humanities) faculty here are subject to on a daily basis, would probably be to describe the large NOT around which educational 'training' as currently reconceived will be centered... but i'll let it go for now, i'm already going on way too long in this post... suffice to say that it has all to do with "satisfying" the student "customer," an educational marketplace in which desires and aspirations are increasingly influenced by successful corporations such as motorola... if you like, i'll babble on about the current situation wrt integrating a new engineering "interprofessional project" into the undergrad. curriculum, and how this will require a sacrifice of x-hours of humanities credit, to the extent that we in english-history-philosophy must now try to figure out how what we do will 'fit into' a corporate-conceived undergrad. design project led by a graduate student recruited from local industry into our new master's in engineering program (NOT master of science, mind you) so as to offset the costs of a "mentor" blah blah blah... the gist of all of this is that there is less institutional space in which to conduct critical thinking activities (re process, context, etc.), and we're left presumably to dawdle over outdated conceptions of composition instruction (comma-splice detection) or old-style humanistic pursuits (book reports)... but i'm perhaps a bit cynical at this point, i know... hope this helps, bill... all best// joe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 10:59:33 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Alan Golding Subject: Sunday Morning Service Poems Associate Professor of English, U. of Louisville Phone: (502)-852-5918; e-mail: acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu For Charles Smith, and al que quiere: Recent poems "appropriate for Sunday church services": Richard Wilbur's "Peter, " "Matthew VIII, 28ff," "A Christian Hymn," and "Proof." Just had to get that little piece of perversity out of my system. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 11:09:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Question In-Reply-To: More Like A Mutually-Licked-Asshole ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 12:44:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 29 Nov 1995 to 30 Nov 1995 thank you susan dunn--md ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 13:25:31 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: Sheila M., Ron S., Chas. A. I'm not Sheila or Ron or Chas. but > >At another level, I've found a form that enabled me to construct >materials compiled in relatively short segments.... is certainly a useful strategy, and not only for time management. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 14:14:12 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: Poetry and the Academy TQM is taking over at a lot of places, not just Motorola-influenced IIT. When Donna Shalala was pres. or whatever of U. of Wisconsin she was a devout TQM devotee; it's sweeping public schools (under the guise of "outcomes based/continuous improvement") and will no doubt be coming to a higher educational estalishment near you if it hasn't already arrived. Like behaviorism, it is impossible to argue with -- "what's wrong with continuous improvement?" is one question you will be asked. Of course the problematic nature of the notion of "improvement" is just one many things that escapes the TQM devotees' attention, but (tautologically) they don't notice this, even when it's pointed out. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 15:29:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Y >>Yexplication is yexploration ylang ylang? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 15:46:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: David Columbia DavidG, From your post i assumed you were the chair of the english dept at Columbia, but should have known better from the com com at the end of your name. Sounds a little like my experience in grady scholl as ucsd. However, there were lots of cult studs folks (femmo-marxie-post toasters) who were good and provacative who didn't exactly kiss ass but lots of new historicist wieners who did. Any my hero John Granger, who was neither nor, has he got a job? The most brilliant poetry advocate and scholar i've ever come across. Someone ought to get him tenured. Bill Luoma ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 15:52:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: Sheila M., Ron S., Chas. A. At 1:25 PM 12/4/95, Judy Roitman wrote: >I'm not Sheila or Ron or Chas. but > >> >>At another level, I've found a form that enabled me to construct >>materials compiled in relatively short segments.... > >is certainly a useful strategy, and not only for time management. I don't know. I've been compiling poems from notebook materials for a few years and I find it pretty draining. All these _things_ that don't always accumulate.. Of course it could just be a failure to sort. The throughcomposed poem appeals to me strongly now not because I don't have the time to write, but because it almost always seems less tentative and grand than the collaged poem (please read "my" for "the" in this sentence). another poet walking a beat (and not a beat poet), Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 10:14:18 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Poetry and the academy Anthologised Beatles (II) reminds me, Jeff Hansen, to do what you do with writing as "hobby", "all you need is love." By the way, anyone see the original hand-written Paul ms of" I want to (wanna) hold yr hand" in the British Library in a showcase among their Beatliana? The last chorus ends "I want to hold your thing." "Thing?" Hey, Paul! best of uncensored luck Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 10:21:14 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Poetry and the Academy no, no, Joe Amato, say MORE not less abt this v intrsting biz of Motorola & Ideas. I've printed out and circulated via department staff common room this a.m. this seems to me where the real action is now, where the corporate money meets the academy... Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 15:03:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marisa Januzzi Subject: Re: Sunday Morning Service Poems In-Reply-To: I'd like to add almost anything by Anne Porter to the list! Regarding the "collaged" vs. "composed through" methods of doing poetry-- has anyone seen Michael Davidson's piece in Marjorie Perloff's collection, POST-MODERN GENRES? He discusses a piece by Oppen, setting it in the larger archival context of the notebooks, and argues (this is a hasty paraphrase) that some works might thoughtfully be considered 'Notebook Poems," i.e. a poem-including-a-notebook. Depending on the leavings and composition habits of the writer, exploring the genesis of a text this way seems to be an interesting way of (among other things) situating the development of an aesthetic in suggestively contingent material or (gulp) biographical circumstances... I'm sure even "composed through" texts can be read this way, depending on the archival record... so Jordan, be sure you include all those cancelled rent checks and lists of books to steal in the adjacent leaves of yr notebooks... --Marisa (Mina Loy Appears?) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 15:13:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marisa Januzzi Subject: Re: Sunday Morning Service Poems In-Reply-To: On a different topic: Has anyone on the list ever participated in or tried to administer a "service learning" class-- one which combines literary and theoretical readings with some concrete opportunity for students to pursue a volunteer project of some sort, implications of which could be integrated into the student's approach to the academic material (and vice versa)? All this talk about cultural studies and poetry, for instance, has been making me think there must be some way of integrating studying/theorizing it, with some practical experience of how various populations actually conceive of it... I guess I am trying to come up with 'altruistic' projects (such as might be associated with a class called 'Literature and Hunger')-- more than say, working up a Hallmark internship... If you have to be a poet both on &off the page, how do you reflect meaningfully on what that means, or get students to do that, under auspices of a class? ----hmmm... Marisa ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 15:32:23 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Poetry and the Academy >TQM is taking over at a lot of places, not just Motorola-influenced IIT. > >When Donna Shalala was pres. or whatever of U. of Wisconsin she was a >devout TQM devotee; it's sweeping public schools (under the guise of >"outcomes based/continuous improvement") and will no doubt be coming to a >higher educational estalishment near you if it hasn't already arrived. > >Like behaviorism, it is impossible to argue with -- "what's wrong with >continuous improvement?" is one question you will be asked. Of course the >problematic nature of the notion of "improvement" is just one many things >that escapes the TQM devotees' attention, but (tautologically) they don't >notice this, even when it's pointed out. Odd how these things move, as I actually think TQM is on its way out as the management strategy of choice in the American corporate world, replaced by more eclectic theories which supposedly aim to empower each individual to be a fairly independent entrepreneur within the corporation, as articulated by such as Tom Peters. But now TQM is taking over the academic world? beware . . . ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 09:27:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: Re: Poetry and the academy "I want to hold your thing." Paul was always lost for words - How about everything depends upon the little red thing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 20:55:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Smith Subject: Re: Sunday Morning Service Poems Gee thanks Alan... I'll try to keep that in mind! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 20:48:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: MLA EVENTS In-Reply-To: <951204154649_44073320@mail06.mail.aol.com> from "Bill Luoma" at Dec 4, 95 03:46:53 pm RE: MLA We (Jerome Rothenberg & Pierre Joris) would like to invite all POETICS-listers & lurkers who happen to be in Chicago during MLA to 2 events: 1) The ACLA (American Comparative Literature Association)'s party, co-sponsored by the University of California Press, to celebrate POEMS FOR THE MILLENNIUM: THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA BOOK OF MODERN & POSTMODERN POETRY (edited by yourstrulies). [This is not a cash bar as mistakenly announced in the MLA big brown mag.] It will take place on THURSDAY, DECEMBER 28, 5:15 TO 6:30 P.M. IN CHICAGO BALLROOM C OF THE MARRIOTT. 2) A session to mark the publication of POEMS FOR THE MILLENNIUM.A panel chaired by Eugene Eoyang and including Jerome Rothenberg, Pierre Joris & Nathaniel Mackey will discuss THE MAKING OF A GLOBAL ANTHOLOGY on Saturday, December 30, 12 noon to 1:15 p.m. in the Los Angeles-Miami room of the Marriott. ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Poems are sketches for existence." Dept. of English | --Paul Celan SUNY Albany | Albany NY 12222 | "Revisionist plots tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | are everywhere and our pronouns haven't yet email: | drawn up plans for the first coup." joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --J.H. Prynne ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 21:35:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jeffrey timmons Subject: Re: Testimony: Dr. Owens Wiwa In-Reply-To: <199512021559.JAA08425@charlie.acc.iit.edu> On Sat, 2 Dec 1995, Joe Amato wrote: > in any case, i'm not going there now, and feeling somehow guilty... but by > way of protesting the shell-nigeria situation... and instead i'm ending up > over at the local mobil... though of course i don't feel "good" about this > either... which is precisely the sort of dilemma we've been conditioned > into accepting, a perpetual choosing twixt relative evils... Ride a bike. Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 21:54:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jeffrey timmons Subject: Re: Sunday Morning Service Poems In-Reply-To: how about stevens' "Sunday Moring"? Jeffrey Timmons On Mon, 4 Dec 1995, Alan Golding wrote: > Associate Professor of English, U. of Louisville > Phone: (502)-852-5918; e-mail: acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu > > For Charles Smith, and al que quiere: > > Recent poems "appropriate for Sunday church services": Richard Wilbur's > "Peter, " "Matthew VIII, 28ff," "A Christian Hymn," and "Proof." > > Just had to get that little piece of perversity out of my system. > > Alan > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 21:46:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jeffrey timmons Subject: Re: Question In-Reply-To: <9512032303.AA16544@ucscb.UCSC.EDU> MLA: Mutant Luddite Anomalies ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 21:58:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Memo from Executive Secretary of the MLA In-Reply-To: <199512040458.UAA17916@sparta.SJSU.EDU> We no longer stand for that. Please note and correct. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 22:09:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Poetry and the academy Mark Roberts wrote: > "I want to hold your thing." > >Paul was always lost for words - > >How about > >everything depends upon the little red thing "so much" for quoting WCW. But you're sure right about Paul one of the four worst Beatles of all time. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 22:40:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Galen Cope Subject: Re: Sunday Morning Service Poems Marisa Januzzi: Has anyone on the list ever participated in or tried to administer a "service learning" class-- one which combines literary and theoretical readings with some concrete opportunity for students to pursue a volunteer project of some sort, implications of which could be integrated into the student's approach to the academic material (and vice versa)? I'm not sure I'm entirely clear on what this would entail, but I'll attempt a response... I'm currently teaching a course on "Sound and Language" -- essentially a course on the poetics of music and the music of poetics -- for which one of the requiremnets is a "presentation/per- formance," meaning that on a given day a given student is basically given the stage and asked to either lead the class discussion, present a lecture, or give a performance in reference to a particular reading or set of readings. As the syllabus is quite broad -- poetry, poetics, music, performance studies, even some new histroicism -- students are encouraged to integrate a range of discourse(s) into their work. This means that as often as not we're getting lecture/ performance/ discussion in a single presentation. This has been important because a large portion of the course is involved in both the close reading and cultural critique of the texts in question (Coolidge, Cage, Braxton, Mackey, Baraka). Central to the course is an insistence that all 'creative' work exist within a nexus of other works, artifacts, ideas, ideologies etc. This is basic concept to most, but certainly not one that's put into practice in most workshops at the undergraduate level. This means that the 'creative writing' students enrolled in the course are pressed to examine their own practice as cultural work -- to examine what it does at the cultural level and not merely at the mechanical level. At the same time, those students used to expository and discursive approaches to literature have been pressed to engage with the work -- to riff off the work -- in ways that are creative and productive rather than simply interpretive and exhaustive. I've yet to receive any final papers (due next week), but the emphasis there is generally the same. One hopes for the best... -Stephen Cope ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 02:06:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Smith Subject: Pro's & hobbyists "That old religious term "vocation" serves nicely." Just wanted to say yes! & ...thanks to Judy Roitman's take on alternatives to the writer as "pro" ... & whoever it was (Charles Alexander?) who mentioned passion over that horrible IRS term, "hobby." best, Charles Smith ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 03:13:09 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Perez Subject: service classes? As an undergraduate I was in a class on the Contemporary Short Story that was taught as both a Creative Writing and Literature class. We had to respond to each weeks reading in a critical (short "essay") or creative way. It worked very well, in that the members of the class were forced in to different ways of thinking about text. For instance, there was a story we read (I forget the story) that ended with the writer turning and asking the reader a question, and we discussed the possibility of that ending being created by the writer having no other "plot" options at the time. Not normally something you would discuss in a "lit" class. I think this kind of class works very well in opening new ways of thinking about texts and writing. Remember in high school when you had to write new endings to stories you read? I think that can be a highly complex process and a good way to become intimate with a text (and a great way to get some of these writers off the pedastels they've been put on), so even if it is looked at as juvenile we should do it more. Renga is similar to this in a back and forth way, I guess. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 22:45:54 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Luce Irigaray, CPA (fwd) Gotta love this! Gab. (on my birthday too!) >[Alleged] Wall Street Journal Reports IRS Desire to Tax Sex -- Even in Marriage <...> >Date: 28 Nov 1995 18:54:51 -0800 <...> >"Sex" maybe Become IRS Target >by the Staff of the Wall Street Journal > >Raising new questions about the tax status of conungal relations practiced by >millions of citizens, the Internal Revenue Service said that the general >policy that "sex" is freely given in the context of relationships subjects > >While the IRS didn't hold that sex itself is taxable, it did say that most >conjugal relationships are based on de facto economic quid pro quos, and >therefore trigger a tax liability celibate individuals wouldn't otherwise >face. According to the "technical advice memorandum," which only applies to >one couple who was being audited, which the IRS didn't identify, "Sex has >historically been a commodity that was either sold or bartered or stolen. As >such it has a demonstrable cash value, which can be quantified according to >accepted market criteria. ... According to one tax >commisioner, who preferred to remain anonymous, "Sex is seldom freely given >with no strings attached by one party to the next. The monetary value of >those "strings" comprises compensation which can be quantified and therefore >taxable." > >It is unclear exactly how IRS would propose to tax sex. The decision raises >many highly complicated administrative problems, tax specialists say. Among >these: how to value the benefits ... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 08:02:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: MLA EVENTS >RE: MLA > >We (Jerome Rothenberg & Pierre Joris) would like to invite all >POETICS-listers & lurkers who happen to be in Chicago during MLA >to 2 events: > >1) The ACLA (American Comparative Literature Association)'s party, >co-sponsored by the University of California Press, to celebrate POEMS >FOR THE MILLENNIUM: THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA BOOK OF MODERN & >POSTMODERN POETRY (edited by yourstrulies). [This is not a cash bar as >mistakenly announced in the MLA big brown mag.] It will take place on >THURSDAY, DECEMBER 28, 5:15 TO 6:30 P.M. IN CHICAGO BALLROOM C OF THE >MARRIOTT. > >2) A session to mark the publication of POEMS FOR THE MILLENNIUM.A >panel chaired by Eugene Eoyang and including Jerome Rothenberg, Pierre >Joris & Nathaniel Mackey will discuss THE MAKING OF A GLOBAL ANTHOLOGY >on Saturday, December 30, 12 noon to 1:15 p.m. in the Los >Angeles-Miami room of the Marriott. > >======================================================================= >Pierre Joris | "Poems are sketches for existence." >Dept. of English | --Paul Celan >SUNY Albany | >Albany NY 12222 | "Revisionist plots >tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | are everywhere and our pronouns haven't yet > email: | drawn up plans for the first coup." >joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --J.H. Prynne >======================================================================= Gosh, Pierre--sounds like you will actually try to deal with some poetry at the MLA. Oddly enough I still belong to the thing after all these years--the health insurance is a bargain. Having attgended at least six of them and done maybe five panels and other presentations, I can only say the MLA is usable only for job-hunters, potential employers and would-be trendies. I hope people attend your presentation., since anything innovative is a rarity there. If it were run like the CAA (College Art Association) it would be quite a different matter. Somehow I wonder why there is so much shop and small talk on this network. Who has time for that? Can it be that the English Profs are not aware of the difference between talking about poetry and poetics? I see very little material on poetics on this network, but a great deal of professional boohooing. These laments about not having time to write poetry--anyone who vents such laments is quite incapable of writing worthwhile poetry. At the very least I would suggest that such a person reread the second intro to the Lyrical Ballads. Once when John Cage complained to Arnold Schoenberg that he was asking too much of him and his students, Schoenberg asked how many hours there are in a day. Cazge said, "Twenty four." "Nonsense," said Schoenberg. "There are as many hours in a day as you put there." I left academia because I couldn't get my work done (including scholarly work), and in spite of my poverty and instability, I have no regrets. American poetry is, as you know, quite backwards, and it will continue to be so as long as literature programs are dominated by the Boohoo Brigade. Sincerely Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 08:04:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: Sunday Morning Service Poems >Marisa Januzzi: > > >Has anyone on the list ever participated in or tried to administer a >"service learning" class-- one which combines literary and theoretical >readings with some concrete opportunity for students to pursue a volunteer >project of some sort, implications of which could be integrated into the >student's approach to the academic material (and vice versa)? > > >I'm not sure I'm entirely clear on what this would entail, but I'll >attempt a response... > >I'm currently teaching a course on "Sound and >Language" -- essentially a course on the poetics of music and the music >of poetics -- for which one of the requiremnets is a "presentation/per- >formance," meaning that on a given day a given student is basically >given the stage and asked to either lead the class discussion, present >a lecture, or give a performance in reference to a particular reading >or set of readings. As the syllabus is quite broad -- poetry, poetics, >music, performance studies, even some new histroicism -- students are >encouraged to integrate a range of discourse(s) into their work. This >means that as often as not we're getting lecture/ performance/ discussion >in a single presentation. > >This has been important because a large portion >of the course is involved in both the close reading and cultural critique >of the texts in question (Coolidge, Cage, Braxton, Mackey, Baraka). Central >to the course is an insistence that all 'creative' work exist within a nexus >of other works, artifacts, ideas, ideologies etc. This is basic concept >to most, but certainly not one that's put into practice in most workshops >at the undergraduate level. This means that the 'creative writing' students >enrolled in the course are pressed to examine their own practice as cultural >work -- to examine what it does at the cultural level and not merely at the >mechanical level. At the same time, those students used to expository and >discursive approaches to literature have been pressed to engage with the >work -- to riff off the work -- in ways that are creative and productive >rather than simply interpretive and exhaustive. > >I've yet to receive any final papers (due next week), but the emphasis there >is generally the same. One hopes for the best... > > >-Stephen Cope Studenbts students students-- This is supposed to be about poetics. Cut the shop talk baby and get down to business. Sincerely Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 08:07:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: Pro's & hobbyists >"That old religious term "vocation" serves nicely." > >Just wanted to say yes! & ...thanks to Judy Roitman's take on alternatives >to the writer as "pro" ... & whoever it was (Charles Alexander?) who >mentioned passion over that horrible IRS term, "hobby." > >best, >Charles Smith Hobby poetry? Hobby horse, perhaps Uncle Toby's hobby horse. A better word wouild be "amateur," something done for love instead of profit. Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 08:13:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: service classes? >As an undergraduate I was in a class on the Contemporary Short Story that was >taught as both a Creative Writing and Literature class. We had to respond to >each weeks reading in a critical (short "essay") or creative way. It worked >very well, in that the members of the class were forced in to different ways >of thinking about text. For instance, there was a story we read (I forget >the story) that ended with the writer turning and asking the reader a >question, and we discussed the possibility of that ending being created by >the writer having no other "plot" options at the time. Not normally >something you would discuss in a "lit" class. > >I think this kind of class works very well in opening new ways of thinking >about texts and writing. > >Remember in high school when you had to write new endings to stories you >read? I think that can be a highly complex process and a good way to become >intimate with a text (and a great way to get some of these writers off the >pedastels they've been put on), so even if it is looked at as juvenile we >should do it more. Renga is similar to this in a back and forth way, I >guess. Isn't this the old "Daily Thermes" approach, which Baker used sixty years ago? It was still a-going when I was at Yale in the fifties and is still used, as you say, on the high schoool level in some places. Indeed it is good. But it is a pedagogical question. How you teach is a different question from how you do or what you or anyone else's work EXISTS. How does a poem exist once it has left you? Is it the same work when it is typeset in Caslon or handwritten? How does it exist in the memory? Who are you when you have done it? Those are the questions which should be addressed, not the moonings of students who would rather be somewhere else (who can blame them) whom you are charged with teachi8ng your skills in spite of themselves. Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 08:45:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: Pro's and hobbyists In-Reply-To: from "Dick Higgins" at Dec 5, 95 08:02:57 am Yea Dick Higgins. Maybe the profs should start up their own list where they can trade teaching tricks and gripes about the MLA. Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 08:56:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: Y In-Reply-To: <951204152942_44052806@emout04.mail.aol.com> On Mon, 4 Dec 1995, Bill Luoma wrote: > >>Yexplication is yexploration > > ylang ylang? It's actually a bit of dialogue from Vikram Seth's massive but entertaining anachronism, A SUITABLE BOY. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 684-6277 "Yexplication is yexploration." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 08:57:10 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: MLA EVENTS dick h., specifically: i hold mself in part responsible for the profession/al thread, which i've tried to pursue with some amount of stated hesitancy... to suggest that it's "boohoo," dick, is just plain wrong in my view---i've been trying to get at the economics of teaching, which for many of "us," like it or no, is intertwined with our conception of ourselves as poets... there's simply got to be a place for broader cultural discussions of this sort, esp. when one considers the influence of various literary organizations on the MAKING of poetry (by which i mean publishing, marketing, distributing, etc.)... the thread is not for all tastes, no... but i read your resistance in fact less as disinterest than as yet one more attempt to decontextualize a discussion of poetry/poetics, to wrench it free from the institutions which give it shape and urgency... but that's just the way i see it... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 10:36:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Pro's & hobbyists Hey Dick Higgins DID YOU SEE THAT MOVIE "AMATEUR" (Hal Hartley?) And what's the difference between THE BOO HOO Brigade and Harold Bloom's School of Resentment? Or the MOVE (not the one that was bombed in BILLADELPHIA)'s song "FIRE BRIGADE" (1967)? And did you ever see the bus advertisement that says "We PUT THE PEEK BACK IN BOO" and what is the relationship to it and Siouxsie Sioux and/or the divine tautology truck--Gauranteed Overnite Delivery? Knock knock.... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 10:47:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Quality Joe, Thanks for the cultural study of motorola and iit. It's so difficult to find an interesting description of how writers and corporations interact. If you look in the business publishing section you find platitudes like the gavin quotation. Pep rallies. If you look to critical theory you just find uncritical and nervous attacks on corporate culture. I was surprised at the lack of (at least) lip service that motorola was "paying" to writing. You here a lot of platitudes these days about how upset business "leaders" are that their engineers and sales folks can't write, can't think, can't analyze , can't be creative, can't be independent, don't understand tom peters when he says an org chart should look like a jackson pollack painting. The company i work for has had a strange relationship to writers. Had a lot when Alan Berheimer was VP of com com. But when RonRon moved to phili he said bubuy to me, have fun being the last literate person in the dept. I'm in sales now and find a few more literate folk than in marketing (??!!). I have taught writing classes to my peers and there does seem to be some consciousness from mgmt that decent written communication (persuasion) can be translated in $$$. But there is definite lack of skill. Maybe this is why RonRon's new company is eating our lunch. Bill Luoma ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 09:48:45 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: Sheila M., Ron S., Chas. A. > > >I don't know. I've been compiling poems from notebook materials for a few >years and I find it pretty draining. >Jordan Yeah, that could be draining. Ron spoke of finding a form. What happened to me is that I felt trapped in the notion of *the poem*, and wanting to break out of it started doing series-of-fragments for poetics reasons, turned out to fit into my life much better, but that's not why I got started doing it, and I expect if I won a lottery tomorrow and quit my job I'd still be thinking in terms of strings of stuff loosely attached rather than discrete page-or-two packets. But I doubt if form can arise solely from personal circumstance, without some theoretical or poetical or aesthetic or whatever urgency. Or maybe we all just fool ourselves. Meanwhile there are folks who write novels on the sly -- how do they do that? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 07:53:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: total quality mangled In-Reply-To: <199512050739.XAA08078@sparta.SJSU.EDU> beware beware the same trick the repubs. are trying to pull in congress has long been in progress in education -- much talk of decentralizing, moving power down to the colleges and departments, etc. -- never turns out really to decentralize power -- instead, usually is a move to send _much_ reduced funds to deans and departments with instructions that they are now to decide which programs and faculty to throw overboard -- there's a reason all the new university presidents and perhaps even your department chair are always talking about the need to be entrepreneurial -- they want to sell your downsized department to microsoft -- get this -- most elementary schools in california lost their librarians (and many have lost their libraries) long ago -- BUT, most of the new prisons have library staff -- We're thinking of renaming ourselves San Jose State Correctional Institute in hopes of getting on the penology gravy train -- maybe we can have all the faculty and students wear numbers & stripes?? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 09:24:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: TQM >Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 14:14:12 -0600 >From: Judy Roitman >Subject: Re: Poetry and the Academy > >TQM is taking over at a lot of places, not just Motorola-influenced IIT. > >When Donna Shalala was pres. or whatever of U. of Wisconsin she was a >devout TQM devotee; it's sweeping public schools (under the guise of >"outcomes based/continuous improvement") and will no doubt be coming to a >higher educational estalishment near you if it hasn't already arrived. > >Like behaviorism, it is impossible to argue with -- "what's wrong with >continuous improvement?" is one question you will be asked. Of course the >problematic nature of the notion of "improvement" is just one many things >that escapes the TQM devotees' attention, but (tautologically) they don't >notice this, even when it's pointed out. There's more. At least here at Arizona, where the new president who came in a couple of years ago had 30 lbs of TQM buttons stapled to his chest, the rhetoric is wooly (sp?) enough to make a supposedly function-based system completely non-functional. As Joe notes in another post from yesterday, the students are of course called "customers" (which begs the whole certification question, of course); but in all the data-driven reports what's measured is "input/throughput/output" of guess what, students. I guess on some fairly zenish level there might be some sense in the notion of customers buying themselves as products, but I don't think The Tower as it's appropriately called has reached that level of awareness yet. Meanwhile the data is soft enough to qualify for instant Oldenburg enshrinement (correct that spelling for me, if necessary, geysers). Plus the criteria, each semester, for each new data-driven report switch maddeningly, and no advance warning is given as to what data the underpaid admin assistants are supposed to log into their databases. PLUS which, apparently, very few of the reams of paper that get called for actually get read (of course). It reminds me a lot of teaching elementary school in Oceanhill Brownsville in the late sixties and early seventies--the phenomenon of "lesson plans," to be prepared in truly mandarin format--let's see, 3 minutes of motivation, 2 minutes of introducing the topic, etc etc--such that plans filled out without due attention to said format would be returned by the assistant principal for re-submission. That is to say, we're being kept busy, and quite effectively. Occasional late-night forays into deep cable space, ie MEU, have given me the impression that TQM or some variant thereof actually makes lots of sense, or can, in industry. That's also what my college friend who manages computer stuff for a big mylar (sp?) balloon factory in Brooklyn says. There's always a (relative) bottleneck in an operation so there's always something to fix. It's also true that at a big state university with serious research aspirations but an antsy legislature worried about the state's sons and daughters--and rightly so, since average time to degree for the BA is well over six years--a production model arguably has some utility. But here, at least, not too many utils are dropping into the box. Tenney (also lots of nice stories about going to efficiency meetings at which 300-plus faculty members are kept waiting for twenty minutes in a big auditorium bc, 1/2 way through the meeting, the folks from OIR (Office of Institutional Research=data moles) discover that 3 pages are missing from the efficiency handout they've distributed. and so on. but that's for another time.) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 09:24:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: oh yes definitely >Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 21:54:33 -0700 >From: jeffrey timmons >Subject: Re: Sunday Morning Service Poems > >how about stevens' "Sunday Moring"? > >Jeffrey Timmons yep, I like it. all those shores w inarticulate pang & all (pardon the quoted mis-spelling) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 11:25:14 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Quality bill, yeah, you really gotta work hard to yank outta the corporate mouths what they mean by "communication"... even in my tech. writing courses, students enter with a visualization that what they're gonna get is the $1500 version of the $200 business com. seminars being offered by so many independent firms these days (one student admitted this to me this past semester---somehow i managed to convince him that this wasn't necessarily a Good Thing)... whereas i'm less interested in such functional doings (to an extreme perhaps) and more interested in plumbing the corporate-educational philosophy underwriting a course title such as "communication for management"... and trying to understand how language practices may be more ethically conceived in such contexts (w/o reducing "ethics" itself to prepackaged, black & white, plug & chug formulae)... but of course this is a contested site, esp. when viewed over and against controversies in the composition community... i guess it's worth pointing out around here, in light of recent posts, that poetry/poetics has at least something to do with teaching... that the way poetry is taught has at least something to do with educational curricula and pedagogical theory... that teaching in turn influences to a large extent the way many folks come to understand same... and that this suggests a basis for reception and identity, even wrt poets themselves... and lest anybody believe that this talk about writing-in-academe is all moot, i would suggest taking a long, hard look at the standards debates in composition studies, how writing assessment and such is being talked about, and what this means for educating children in the nuances of text... one final thought, after reading judy's and tenney's posts: i used to think, having been sent both by miller brewing co. and bristol-myers co. through a good deal of (sometimes intense) corporate training, that there might be some use for a more 'business-oriented' approach to academic economic woes... but these days i'd urge, strongly, that any such information transfer be attempted only with some serious viral protection in place... the cultural backdrop is just too damned desperately conservative to import such thinking w/o a serious risk of infection... i use the technical metaphor to suggest that, as much as i'm in favor of using computers and the like in teaching, these sorts of optimization strategies represent in essence the nastier side of educational technology in the late 20th. century, how the "human" (incl. learning) stands to be "institutionalized" by specific forms of technological thinking and practice... joe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 15:29:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: total quality mangled Hey, Aldon, are you suggesting that TQM is a scam. It seems to pull the wool of DEMOCRACY over the wolf of heirarchies and pyramids-- in government, business, academia and even the "poetry world"-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 15:45:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: An Ordinary Evening in New Haven Studenbts students students-- This is supposed to be about poetics. Cut the shop talk baby and get down to business. Sincerely ____ Thanks for the clarification. Thanks also for the patronization. Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:09:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Re: Sheila M., Ron S., Chas. A. >I don't know. I've been compiling poems >from notebook materials for a few >years and I find it pretty draining. >Jordan Jordan, Hang on to those notebeooks and sell them when you're an old fart. ChaChing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 13:09:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Don Cheney Subject: Re: total quality mangled ---------------------------- Forwarded with Changes --------------------------- From: anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU at @UCSD Date: 12/5/95 7:53AM *To: POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU at @UCSD Subject: Re: total quality mangled ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- look kids, i'm getting tired of hearing how much our prison systems do for inmates (in the media and now here). haven't you heard? chain gangs are being revived for laughs. my brother is in a california state prison (chuckwalla valley, in blythe) and they have someone who is called a librarian but who knows nothing about books. and they have a library but as john told me, "YOU have more books than this library, NO JOKE!"--and i don't have a massive collection. prisoners get to be bored all day. they have one tv for the entire place, the library's a joke, the food's a joke. recently the governor or someone from his office was visiting and all of the sudden they have decent food to eat and prison officials literally start taking bunks out of cells so that it doesn't appear to be overcrowded. i asked john what they did with the actual inmates and he said some get put into isolation, they just get rid of them. and part of the local scenery (at least for my brother) includes seeing an inmate beaten to death by 5 guards (the inmate had jumped one of the guards). prisons may be getting lots of money but the prisoners are not the ones reaping the benefits. don dcheney@ucsd.edu --------------------------------------------------------------------------- beware beware the same trick the repubs. are trying to pull in congress has long been in progress in education -- much talk of decentralizing, moving power down to the colleges and departments, etc. -- never turns out really to decentralize power -- instead, usually is a move to send _much_ reduced funds to deans and departments with instructions that they are now to decide which programs and faculty to throw overboard -- there's a reason all the new university presidents and perhaps even your department chair are always talking about the need to be entrepreneurial -- they want to sell your downsized department to microsoft -- get this -- most elementary schools in california lost their librarians (and many have lost their libraries) long ago -- BUT, most of the new prisons have library staff -- We're thinking of renaming ourselves San Jose State Correctional Institute in hopes of getting on the penology gravy train -- maybe we can have all the faculty and students wear numbers & stripes?? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:57:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: MLA EVENTS >dick h., specifically: > >i hold mself in part responsible for the profession/al thread, which i've >tried to pursue with some amount of stated hesitancy... to suggest that >it's "boohoo," dick, is just plain wrong in my view---i've been trying to >get at the economics of teaching, which for many of "us," like it or no, is >intertwined with our conception of ourselves as poets... there's simply got >to be a place for broader cultural discussions of this sort, esp. when one >considers the influence of various literary organizations on the MAKING of >poetry (by which i mean publishing, marketing, distributing, etc.)... > >the thread is not for all tastes, no... but i read your resistance in fact >less as disinterest than as yet one more attempt to decontextualize a >discussion of poetry/poetics, to wrench it free from the institutions which >give it shape and urgency... > >but that's just the way i see it... > >best, > >joe Of course you are right, Joe. Yesterday I was at a political meeting- our county government had its public budget hearing. Our local arts council happens to be a pretty good one, and the county honchos decided to punish it by reducing its annual grant by the amount which the arts organization had granted to our local art cinema, also a good one, whicxh had shown the film PRIEST. This was a clear-cut free speech issue. We have many academic institutions around-Vassar, Bard College, etc. In fact we (my friends) brought together several hundred people to protest-local artists, writers, yes and poets. Not one academic except a priest (who teaches) showed up to protest. Too busy being busy, I guess. But it is this kind of situations which shows how the academic career involvement has marginalized the poets and other artists (but especially the poets, I think) who attempt it. Of course there are exceptions. Then when I logged on to find some interesting theoretical issues, all I could find was chatter about the MLA.You can imagine how I felt! How I read it is that the poets who will or who must attend the MLA convention are hungry to belong to a community of poets and poetry afficianados-and we all know there are such people. But the MLA does not exist for this purpose. Conclusion-the poetics bulletin board should be precisely what it was established to be, a POETICS discussion group. The people who need to chatter about the MLA should have their own discussion group. And as for poetry, there are increasing numbers of e-mags and sites with poetry, visual or otherwise. Each has its own function- and, I might add, its own legitimacy. But they are not the same thing. By the way, I will be happy to swap site info on places where my own poetry is or where I have found poems I like. WE can then discuss those pieces, which means we will be focusing on stuff that is current and which presumably reflects our time and predicaments in a fairly raw way. Very bests Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 17:14:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: Pro's & hobbyists > Hey Dick Higgins DID YOU SEE THAT MOVIE "AMATEUR" (Hal Hartley?) > And what's the difference between THE BOO HOO Brigade > and Harold Bloom's School of Resentment? > Or the MOVE (not the one that was bombed in BILLADELPHIA)'s song > "FIRE BRIGADE" (1967)? > And did you ever see the bus advertisement that says > "We PUT THE PEEK BACK IN BOO" > and what is the relationship to it and Siouxsie Sioux > and/or the divine tautology truck--Gauranteed Overnite Delivery? > Knock knock.... You say "Knock Knoxk," and I am tempted to say "Who' s there?" Well, I do say it, and we can keep this up. But I also say more... No, I haven't seen the Hal Hartley movie AMATEUR--hope I can rent it locally. Can't afford FACETS. Bloom is not necessary to me, though I have sometimes reflected on his idea that the meaning of a poem is a poem. I notice, I enjoy but I try not to hang onto anything which is not essential. Siouxsxie Sioux--didn't she have something to do with the Banshees? I haven't hung onto that either. When I growled about the Boohoo Brigade, I meant people who feel sorry for themselves, that they have so little time, etc. I meant that and that is what I meant. Much as I dislike Thomas Carlyle in many ways, Emerson's picture of him becomes more and more important from the diary entries and letters "Facts, Ralph---Faaaacts" (I can almost hear him speak) to the NATURAL HISTORY OF INTELLECT portrait and so on. Carlyle was born in the same year as John Keats, and somehow remained a true romantic though we seldom think of him that way. I left academia almost twenty years ago because it was getting in the way of my scholarly and artistic interests. For others' interests I suppose it is okay. But academia is not the only way to approach these things, and listening to the laments of what I called the Boohoo Brigade is not exactly thrilling. If you walk in a cold rain, you are going to get wet. An endless discussion of the matter is not likely to be edifying. Sincerely Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 15:23:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marisa Januzzi Subject: self service... In-Reply-To: <199512051725.LAA08686@charlie.acc.iit.edu> Hi everyone; hi Dick (may I call you that?) specifically. By asking about service learning classes involving poetry and some sort of community service activity, I was precisely wondering about the ways such a class could cause writers to consider how, as Joe Amato helpfully put it (in a different context), language practices can be more ethically conceived... it seems to me that "who you are when you hand a hungry person a sandwich" is at least as compelling as "who you are" when you watch yr poem go from crayon to caslon... and that anyway the two questions can't be separately conceived... and that is the hunger in poetry I'm going to teach a class called "Lit of Social Reflection: Hunger" (readings from sociology and anthropology as well as lit-- Kafka, Fisher, DiPrima ((DINNERS AND NIGHTMARES/REVOLUTIONARY LETTERS is perfect!!)), Dorothy Day...) Anyone have any suggestions of readings which might illuminate the experiences these students will have, of serving and eating with people at a soup kitchen? Ways to situate writing, and poetics, vis. food and hunger? I may not even be asking the right questions yet. To Judy Roitman: thanks-- your suggestion reminded me, too, of Kenneth Koch's book on teaching poetry-writing in nursing homes... which could be a good place to start... somehow I've been given this task of coming up with not just one class, but a rubric for regular service-learning offerings through my English Dept... so Lit. of Social Reflection (theft of title from Robert Coles) is the course title, and each person who does it could work up a separate topic-- like aging. AIDS lit. also comes to mind-- wouldn't it be great to teach Killian and Bellamy and Powell and Gunn and Kushner in one class... Thanks, everyone, for being open to this question of what "doing poetry" might encompass. --Nobody's Baby! Marisa ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 17:27:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: An Ordinary Evening in New Haven >Studenbts students students-- > >This is supposed to be about poetics. Cut the shop talk baby and get down >to business. > >Sincerely > > > >____ >Thanks for the clarification. Thanks also for the patronization. > >Jordan You're welcome. You may patronize me if you wish. That isn't really the issue, or is it? However, as thou shalt find from other things I have said in this context, I believe it is unfair to reduce poetics to shop talk for teachers. Sincerely Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 15:22:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: Sheila M., Ron S., Chas. A. Bill Luoma writes: >Hang on to those notebeooks and sell them when you're an old fart. Bill, I'm surprised you'd make such an ageist statement. You're no young chicken yourself. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 17:28:20 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: self service... Since I didn't make my suggestion publicly, here it is -- it was that working with older folks might challenge notions of language, mind, self, life/death/sickness/health & the whole ball of wax. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 18:14:56 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: MLA EVENTS dick: >ces where my own poetryces where my own poetryBy the way, I will be happy to swap site info on places where my own poetry >is or where I have found poems I like... yep, indeedy, please post those addresses... tho to point out, discussion of poems is not always (for better or worse) a discussion ov poetics... lbd ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 09:49:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: Re: Poetry and the academy >Mark Roberts wrote: > >> "I want to hold your thing." >> >>Paul was always lost for words - >> >>How about >> >>everything depends upon the little red thing > > >"so much" > >for quoting WCW. > >But you're sure right about Paul one of the four worst Beatles of all time. > > >Herb Levy >herb@eskimo.com whoops that was one of my 'quick posts' I should have reread it before posting.......... Mark ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 18:31:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ULMER SPRING Subject: Re: Sheila M., Ron S., Chas. A. i find poems in writing to people ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 18:34:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ULMER SPRING Subject: Re: total quality mangled to do with jail and fairness, everyone should read Brother Soledad by George Jackson... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 18:59:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: total quality mangled aldon sez: get this -- most elementary schools in california lost their librarians (and many have lost their libraries) long ago -- BUT, most of the new prisons have library staff -- We're thinking of renaming ourselves San Jose State Correctional Institute in hopes of getting on the penology gravy train -- maybe we can have all the faculty and students wear numbers & stripes?? *** see, i knew genet had something to do with poetics and pedagogy.--md ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 17:19:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jeffrey timmons Subject: Re: MLA EVENTS In-Reply-To: On Tue, 5 Dec 1995, Dick Higgins wrote: > Somehow I wonder why there is so much shop and small talk on this network. > Who has time for that? Can it be that the English Profs are not aware of > the difference between talking about poetry and poetics? I see very little > material on poetics on this network, but a great deal of professional > boohooing. These laments about not having time to write poetry--anyone who > vents such laments is quite incapable of writing worthwhile poetry. is this productive or helpful? maybe your time would be better spent not boohooing what goes on here? Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 19:54:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: self service... marisa, how 'bout that book, cant remember title, Travels with ? memoirs of a homeless guy who traveled w/ his little dog? he's spozed to be a pretty good writer, had been published in some gay porn-fiction mags before. came out a few years ago? also, there were lots of prison anthologies etc in the 1970s maybe yr univ library has some. the first NuYorican anthology (Morrow, 1970s pub date) has some poems about street life. The Women Outside, by somebody Golden (UCal press) is about homeless women, an ethnography. then there's always the great orwell, down and out in paris and london. and of course Genet, the thief's journal has some great passages about being light-headed from hunger in andalusia, walking and walking. i think it's quite a delicate issue to do "social work" in classes because often social/ethical community work involves what they call "human subjects" and it's not always so clear what the class's relationship to the community is/will be. i know of one guy who does engineering who teaches a class on part of which requires doing some community service --a disabled friend got a stand built by his students for her computer monitor so she could work lying down. this guy gets grants from outside the state college he works at, i think, not sure. in grad school i taught a comp class called the arts of addiction and i had speakers from various anonymous recovery programs come in and tell their stories, and we read rimbaud, kafka, shange, jim carroll, st augustine, anne sexton, etc. that's not the same thing as having students go out into the community to do service work, but it was a thrilling dose of "real life" for them. let me know how it goes --md ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 17:03:35 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: total quality mangled Don Cheney: If I may interpret, I don't think aldon was trying to imply that prisoners would rather be in prison than anywhere else, or that prisons are nice cushy places. Rather, I think he was acknowledging what your post ended with, that "prisons may be getting lots of money but the prisoners are not the ones reaping the benefits", except that he was asserting the inverse of the notion, that, while prisoners are not the ones reaping the benefits, more and more money IS being poured into the prison system, roughly at the expense of the educational system. The stingy mood of the taxpayers we've been hearing so much about doesn't seem to apply to punishing people, only to wise and compassionate uses of money, like for education, art and health care. Sorry to hear about your brother. Steve At 01:09 PM 12/5/95 -0800, you wrote: >---------------------------- Forwarded with Changes --------------------------- >From: anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU at @UCSD >Date: 12/5/95 7:53AM >*To: POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU at @UCSD >Subject: Re: total quality mangled >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >look kids, i'm getting tired of hearing how much our prison systems do for >inmates (in the media and now here). haven't you heard? chain gangs are >being revived for laughs. > >my brother is in a california state prison (chuckwalla valley, in blythe) and >they have someone who is called a librarian but who knows nothing about books. >and they have a library but as john told me, "YOU have more books than this >library, NO JOKE!"--and i don't have a massive collection. > >prisoners get to be bored all day. they have one tv for the entire place, the >library's a joke, the food's a joke. recently the governor or someone from his >office was visiting and all of the sudden they have decent food to eat and >prison officials literally start taking bunks out of cells so that it doesn't >appear to be overcrowded. i asked john what they did with the actual inmates >and he said some get put into isolation, they just get rid of them. > >and part of the local scenery (at least for my brother) includes seeing an >inmate beaten to death by 5 guards (the inmate had jumped one of the guards). > >prisons may be getting lots of money but the prisoners are not the ones reaping >the benefits. > >don >dcheney@ucsd.edu > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >beware beware > >the same trick the repubs. are trying to pull in congress has long been >in progress in education -- much talk of decentralizing, moving power >down to the colleges and departments, etc. -- never turns out really to >decentralize power -- instead, usually is a move to send _much_ reduced >funds to deans and departments with instructions that they are now to >decide which programs and faculty to throw overboard -- there's a reason >all the new university presidents and perhaps even your department chair >are always talking about the need to be entrepreneurial -- they want to >sell your downsized department to microsoft -- > >get this -- most elementary schools in california lost their librarians >(and many have lost their libraries) long ago -- BUT, most of the new >prisons have library staff -- > >We're thinking of renaming ourselves San Jose State Correctional >Institute in hopes of getting on the penology gravy train -- maybe we can >have all the faculty and students wear numbers & stripes?? > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 20:11:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Re: Spring Chickens Dodie is correct. I am not of the spring--just turned 35. I apologize if I offended anyone with the ageist phrase "old fart." Bill ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 19:45:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Don Cheney Subject: Re: total quality mangled Steve, No, i didn't think Aldon meant that prisoners were in someplace good and cushy. and i'm all for more money for schools. i think i was reacting more to the idea the media spreads of prisons as luxury bungalows for criminals. and i've found out that nothing is further from the truth. and so when i read here the assertion that prisons have more library resources than schools it rubs my funny bone the wrong way and i start ranting. Don ----------------------------------------------------------- Don Cheney: If I may interpret, I don't think aldon was trying to imply that prisoners would rather be in prison than anywhere else, or that prisons are nice cushy places. Rather, I think he was acknowledging what your post ended with, that "prisons may be getting lots of money but the prisoners are not the ones reaping the benefits", except that he was asserting the inverse of the notion, that, while prisoners are not the ones reaping the benefits, more and more money IS being poured into the prison system, roughly at the expense of the educational system. The stingy mood of the taxpayers we've been hearing so much about doesn't seem to apply to punishing people, only to wise and compassionate uses of money, like for education, art and health care. Sorry to hear about your brother. Steve At 01:09 PM 12/5/95 -0800, you wrote: >---------------------------- Forwarded with Changes --------------------------- >From: anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU at @UCSD >Date: 12/5/95 7:53AM >*To: POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU at @UCSD >Subject: Re: total quality mangled >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >look kids, i'm getting tired of hearing how much our prison systems do for >inmates (in the media and now here). haven't you heard? chain gangs are >being revived for laughs. > >my brother is in a california state prison (chuckwalla valley, in blythe) and >they have someone who is called a librarian but who knows nothing about books. >and they have a library but as john told me, "YOU have more books than this >library, NO JOKE!"--and i don't have a massive collection. > >prisoners get to be bored all day. they have one tv for the entire place, the >library's a joke, the food's a joke. recently the governor or someone from his >office was visiting and all of the sudden they have decent food to eat and >prison officials literally start taking bunks out of cells so that it doesn't >appear to be overcrowded. i asked john what they did with the actual inmates >and he said some get put into isolation, they just get rid of them. > >and part of the local scenery (at least for my brother) includes seeing an >inmate beaten to death by 5 guards (the inmate had jumped one of the guards). > >prisons may be getting lots of money but the prisoners are not the ones reaping >the benefits. > >don >dcheney@ucsd.edu > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >beware beware > >the same trick the repubs. are trying to pull in congress has long been >in progress in education -- much talk of decentralizing, moving power >down to the colleges and departments, etc. -- never turns out really to >decentralize power -- instead, usually is a move to send _much_ reduced >funds to deans and departments with instructions that they are now to >decide which programs and faculty to throw overboard -- there's a reason >all the new university presidents and perhaps even your department chair >are always talking about the need to be entrepreneurial -- they want to >sell your downsized department to microsoft -- > >get this -- most elementary schools in california lost their librarians >(and many have lost their libraries) long ago -- BUT, most of the new >prisons have library staff -- > >We're thinking of renaming ourselves San Jose State Correctional >Institute in hopes of getting on the penology gravy train -- maybe we can >have all the faculty and students wear numbers & stripes?? > > >-- Saved internet headers (useful for debugging) >Received: from listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu by mail.ucsd.edu; id RAA26943 sendmail >Received: from listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu (listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7. >Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LISTSERV release >Received: from UBVM (NJE origin SMTP@UBVM) by UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail >Received: from slip-1.slip.net by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with >Received: from p09.slip.net (sfsp111.slip.net [204.160.88.143]) by sli >X-Sender: sjcarll@pop.slip.net >X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Message-ID: <199512060103.RAA28200@slip-1.slip.net> >Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 17:03:35 -0800 >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >Sender: UB Poetics discussion group >From: Steve Carll >Subject: Re: total quality mangled >To: Multiple recipients of list POETICS ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 23:49:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Howard Shoemaker Subject: Re: Poetry and the academy In-Reply-To: <199512050748.CAA150101@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU> from "Automatic digest processor" at Dec 5, 95 00:00:06 am Tony Green writes: "no, no, Joe Amato, say MORE not less abt this v intrsting biz of Motorola & Ideas. I've printed out and circulated via department staff common room this a.m. this seems to me where the real action is now, where the corporate money meets the academy..." Yes, Joe, by all means. You're sending shivers up my spine but i want to hear more. Weird thing is, i'm more and more convinced these days that academy types (a category which may or may not continue to include me) need to learn to see themselves as workers. I had a long talk the other day with an AFL-CIO picketer--who was a supermarket employee--and it was friggin' amazing how much we had in common in terms of what the Repub "revolution" was going to do to us if we let it. So i guess what i'm wondering is: will the corporate world "teach" us that we really are workers in time for us to learn to act in our own interests, or will that realization come, perhaps, exactly when it's too late. I think it was Joe who also talked in previous post about resistance to collective-bargaining among his colleagues. And i've just gotten thru hearing some the most godawful brainwashed ivory tower crap from some of the folks (grad students this time) here at uva, so that's partly where this is coming from... steve shoemaker ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 21:14:48 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: MLA EVENTS In-Reply-To: Dick Higgins wrote: > Not one academic except a priest (who teaches) showed up to protest. Too busy being busy, I guess. But it is this kind of situations which shows how the academic career involvement has marginalized the poets and other artists (but especially the poets, I think) who attempt it. Of course there are exceptions. Then when I logged on to find some interesting theoretical issues, all I could find was chatter......the poetics bulletin board should be precisely what it was established to be, a POETICS discussion group. By the way, I will be happy to swap site info on places where my own poetry > When I read your first post I applauded (as a fellow non- or anti- academic, but then wondered why you didn't talk about poetics rather than complaining. Now I see you are serious, so why not check out the many renga threads and give some half-way serious comments? Ask MLLJORGE@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu, jdavis@panix.com, welford@hawaii.edu, lsr3h@DARWIN.CLAS.VIRGINIA.EDU, semurphy@INDIRECT.COM, cris@slang. demon.co.uk, AERIALEDGE@aol.com, csheil@freenet.grfn.org, or MDamon9999@AOL.COM for samples Tom Bell tbjn@well.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 00:32:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: microsoft buys catholic church (fwd) From: IN%"km7836@cnsvax.albany.edu" 5-DEC-1995 14:21:54.61 To: IN%"ls0796@cnsvax.albany.edu" "ls0796" CC: Subj: Have you argued, lately? (fwd) Return-path: Received: from cnsvax.albany.edu by cnsvax.albany.edu (PMDF V5.0-5 #8051) id <01HYG9BQKC708Y7VQ8@cnsvax.albany.edu> for ls0796@cnsvax.albany.edu; Tue, 05 Dec 1995 14:21:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 1995 14:21:05 -0500 (EST) From: km7836@cnsvax.albany.edu Subject: Have you argued, lately? (fwd) To: ls0796 Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 05 Dec 1995 13:23:10 -0500 (EST) From: cr7838@cnsvax.albany.edu To: km7836 Subject: Have you argued, lately? (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 04 Dec 1995 15:45:06 -0500 (EST) From: HEILER INKA To: HBI -- Enrik Schott , HW Klemm , Matthias Menze , Michael Muszula , Sabine Millen , Sandra Poehl , Patrick Pfister , Tom Becker , Gustl Huber , Iliana Filby , Allison Hase , Annette Hagenau , Barbara H , Corinna R , Roland S , ec7311@cnsvax.albany.edu Subject: Have you argued, lately? (fwd) > "HOW TO ARGUE EFFECTIVELY" > > I argue very well. Ask any of my remaining friends. I can win >an argument on any topic, against any opponent. People know this and >steer clear of me at parties. Often, as a sign of their great >respect, they don't even invite me. You too can win arguments. >Simply follow these rules: > > *Drink liquor. > >Suppose you are at a party and some hotshot intellectual is >expounding on the economy of Peru, a subject you know nothing about. >If you're drinking some health-fanatic drink like grapefruit juice, >you'll hang back, afraid to display your ignorance, while the hotshot >enthralls your date. But if you drink several large martinis, you'll >discover you have STRONG VIEWS about the Peruvian economy. You'll be >a WEALTH of information. You'll argue forcefully, offering searing >insights and possibly upsetting furniture. People will be impressed. >Some may leave the room. > > *Make things up. > >Suppose, in the Peruvian economy argument, you are trying to prove >that Peruvians are underpaid, a position you base solely on the fact >that YOU are underpaid, and you'll be damned if you're going to let a >bunch of Peruvians be better off. DON'T say: "I think Peruvians are >underpaid." Say instead: "The average Peruvian's salary in 1981 >dollars adjusted for the revised tax base is $1,452.81 per annum, >which is $836.07 before the mean gross poverty level." > > NOTE: Always make up exact figures. > >If an opponent asks you where you got your information, make THAT up >too. Say: "This information comes from Dr. Hovel T. Moon's study >for the Buford Commission published on May 9, 1982. Didn't you read >it?" Say this in the same tone of voice you would use to say, "You >left your soiled underwear in my bathroom." > > *Use meaningless but weighty-sounding words and phrases. > >Memorize this list: > > Let me put it this way > In terms of > Vis-a-vis > Per se > As it were > Qua > So to speak > Sine qua non > Non Sequitur > >You should also memorize some Latin abbreviations such as >"Q.E.D.", "e.g.", and "i.e." These are all short for "I >speak Latin, and you don't." > >Here's how to use these words and phrases. Suppose you want to say, >"Peruvians would like to order appetizers more often, but they don't >have enough money." > >You never win arguments talking like that. But you WILL win if you >say, "Let me put it this way. In terms of appetizers vis-a-vis >Peruvians qua Peruvians, they would like to order them more often, so >to speak, but they do not have enough money per se, as it were. >Q.E.D." > >Only a fool would challenge that statement. > > *Use snappy and irrelevant comebacks. > >You need an arsenal of all-purpose irrelevant phrases to fire back at >your opponents when they make valid points. The best are: > > You're begging the question. > You're being defensive. > Don't compare apples to oranges. > What are your parameters? > >This last one is especially valuable. Nobody (other than engineers >and policy wonks) has the vaguest idea what "parameters" means. > >Here's how to use your comebacks: > > You say: As Abraham Lincoln said in 1873... > Your opponent says: Lincoln died in 1865. > You say: You're begging the question. > > You say: Liberians, like most Asians... > Your opponent says: Liberia is in Africa. > You say: You're being defensive. > > *Compare your opponent to Adolf Hitler. > >This is your heavy artillery, for when your opponent is obviously >right and you are spectacularly wrong. Bring Hitler up subtly. Say, >"That sounds suspiciously like something Adolf Hitler might say," or >"You certainly do remind me of Adolf Hitler." > >So that's it. You now know how to out-argue anybody. Do not try to >pull any of this on people who generally carry weapons. ****************************************************************************** Inka Heiler | Librarians are the secret masters of the IH7768@cnsunix.albany.edu | universe. They control information. Home: 433 Central Ave Apt#3 | Don't ever piss one off. Albany, N.Y. 12206 | - Spider Robinson - ****************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 00:35:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Pro's & hobbyists So, Dick Higgins----are they ever gonna reprint that old book of yours that looks like a BIBLE?-----if not, well BOO WHO YOU. chris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 00:43:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joshua N Schuster Subject: Re: service classes? Dick Higgins wrote: > > Isn't this the old "Daily Thermes" approach, which Baker used sixty years > ago? It was still a-going when I was at Yale in the fifties and is still > used, as you say, on the high schoool level in some places. Indeed it is > good. But it is a pedagogical question. A pedagogical question meaning exclusively not a poetical question? The connection is much too complex to be dismissed with isolatory labels. While more often it seems pedagogy resists poetics, I see no reason why generative dialogue cannot be either transgressive or radical and certainly can cite many contemp. examples (in classrooms and/as texts). Instead of raking a divide between the two I think it would be more productive to meld these genres. > > How you teach is a different question from how you do or what you or anyone > else's work EXISTS. How does a poem exist once it has left you? Is it the > same work when it is typeset in Caslon or handwritten? How does it exist in > the memory? Who are you when you have done it? Those are the questions > which should be addressed, not the moonings of students who would rather be > somewhere else (who can blame them) whom you are charged with teachi8ng > your skills in spite of themselves. These are all interesting questions which I can't presume to answer thoroughly theoretically (tho would like to know those web sites of contemp. poems.) but I can insist on expanding the realm of poetics past a thin narrow path of verse commerce. As mentioned by Bill Luoma, some of what makes lit. crit. poetically versatile is its willingness to extend beyond Literature to institutions such as shopping malls, but why not politics, commuting, video games, utopia, numbers, architecture, cartoons? Are you positing a right poetics vs. wrong poetics, rigorous vs. trivial theory? I can understand the hesitancy not to allow EVERYTHING to be grist for poetics, but no one word listserv could ever sufficiently entice or encapsulate the possibility for discussion, so I can't assume you've been "misled" by the list. Find much laugh in Carlyle's "Faaaacts" drawl but when does such become hegemonically anti-intellectual? When it becomes pedagogical? As for the book *Natural History of the Intellect* I haven't read it but thus it seems now I've merely been reading the "unnatural" history of intellect. Woah was i off the beaten poetics. Nonetheless I do enjoy yr posts and was wonder if you could answer yr question "How does your work EXIST?" with respect to YOUR work? bests, joshua ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 21:50:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Graham John Sharpe Subject: New Websites @ Prose & Contexts (fwd) thot this would be of interest to some, especially those with concrete and visual poetry interests. graham . > From: Prose & Contexts > Subject: New Websites @ Prose & Contexts > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Content-Length: 1983 > > Prose & Contexts is proud to announce some significant changes and additions > to its website: http://www.io.org/~dalopes > > ALL NEW SITES: > > dbqp > A small press run by Geof Huth in Schenectady NY joins the site with a > plethora of publications of all shapes and sizes. This press specializes in > innovative work of many kinds, especially visual poetry and odd objects. The > site includes an online catalogue, descriptions of various print runs, and a > history of the press. The site may be accessed directly at > http://www.io.org/~dalopes/dbqp > > Runaway Spoon Press > This is an unofficial site at the moment for Bob Grumman's press in Port > Charlotte FL. Once again, this press specializes in visual poetry, though it > has published a range of work including some prose. This site will include > an online catalogue in the future. Currently featured is Irving Weiss's > book, _Visual Voices: The Poem As a Print Object_, published in 1994, > including samples as well as a description. Access directly at > http://www.io.org/~dalopes/rasp > > UPDATES: > > fingerprinting inkoperated > An all new special exhibit has been added to the pages of this small press: > _Fragmintentions (No. 2)_ by Stephen Cain. This partly-authorized web > reprint (in a limited edition of 5 billion viewers) is a wry and witty work > by a talented emerging visual poet in Toronto. fingerprinting may be > accessed directly at http://www.io.org/~dalopes/fi > > COMING VERY SOON (no, really): > > Torque > One of the most vital forces to hit the scene in a long time, this magazine > pushes at the boundaries as it strives to fill "that necessary void in > literature." The last issue, subtitled "commodified dissent for the > disgruntled few," features work both visual and linear by writers new and > old. Watch this space for information on its grand web launch, > deconstructing a computer near you... > __________________________________________________ > Prose & Contexts damian lopes > Box 657 Station P Toronto ON M5S 2Y4 > http://www.io.org/~dalopes > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 21:54:21 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: totalitarian human control In-Reply-To: <199512060507.AAA17540@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> In the state of California this year, the Governor, for the first time in state history, submitted an initial budget which included more dollars for prisons than for higher education. Many elementary schools are now without librarians of any type, good or bad. When the media attempt to give us the impression that people in prison have it cushy, they seldom show us pictures of inmates in the library (that only seems to come up when they imply that inmates shouldn't be allowed to study law because, god help us, they might actually use their knowledge to APPEAL their sentences, and where would we be if innocent people could get out of jail on appeal %$^&(%)) --- look -- I've been in jail,,,, not for long, admittedly, but I'm of an age to have been busted in demonstrations and frequently picked up for no reason at all back in the days when, for instance, the New Jersey Highway Patrol would arrest any racially integrated group of people driving in a van. I have relatives in prison. At the rate this country is going we may soon all have relatives in prison, or be there ourselves. Jail might be nice if you're Michael Milken (sp?) but point is, this same rampant "privatize everything" mood is at work in the prison budgets as well -- Who has not noticed that, along with the reintroduction of the chain gang and rock busting, more jails are being operated for profit, and more of the jailed are producing income for someone other than themselves -- We live in a society that is more interested in locking people up than in educating them -- Most of the prison systems I am aware of, while they still have something resembling an education program, have cut back on possibilities for college level training, even as more money is spent on the system itself -- When I was a student at the former Federal City College, we had a college degree program operating at Lorton Reformatory -- You can guess how popular that is with the Repub. Revolt -- Please, let's not confuse things -- It is a fact that prisons in this state get more money than higher ed (from the state, that is -- UC gets lots of other money, as Ron detailed here) -- That money goes to support an ever-expanding penal regime,, a business that relies upon having more people jailed for longer periods of time -- The disciplinary effects of this should be obvious without aid of Foucault --= The cushy ones are the people who make an industry of keeping large segments of the population uneducated and locked up -- That's what I've been talking about here -- the poetics of confinement, I think, would be a suitable point for discussion -- Particulary on a day when a court has ruled against attempts to hold the federal government reponsible for slavery -- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 21:59:48 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: the poetics of boo hoo In-Reply-To: <199512060507.AAA17540@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Now in one year a book published and plumbing-- took a lifetime to weep a deep trickle --Lorine Niedecker ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 23:20:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: outreach, hunger, & utah >I'm going to teach a class called "Lit of Social Reflection: Hunger" >(readings from sociology and anthropology as well as lit-- Kafka, Fisher, >DiPrima ((DINNERS AND NIGHTMARES/REVOLUTIONARY LETTERS is perfect!!)), >Dorothy Day...) Anyone have any suggestions of readings which might >illuminate the experiences these students will have, of serving and eating >with people at a soup kitchen? Ways to situate writing, and poetics, vis. >food and hunger? I may not even be asking the right questions yet. > >To Judy Roitman: thanks-- your suggestion reminded me, too, of Kenneth >Koch's book on teaching poetry-writing in nursing homes... which could be >a good place to start... somehow I've been given this task of coming up >with not just one class, but a rubric for regular service-learning >offerings through my English Dept... so Lit. of Social Reflection (theft >of title from Robert Coles) is the course title, and each person who does >it could work up a separate topic-- like aging. AIDS lit. also comes to >mind-- wouldn't it be great to teach Killian and Bellamy and Powell and >Gunn and Kushner in one class... > >Thanks, everyone, for being open to this question of what "doing poetry" >might encompass. > >--Nobody's Baby! >Marisa > Marisa-- just a sideline to the thread: does this mean that the English Department is actively moving into something like only slightly indirect social action? Does this come from S. Tatum as head or from higher up? Are meditations on Utah pertinent? If so might they be forthcoming? Being at a big state U just slightly to the south, I'm a little surprised, is all, since I can't feature something like what you describe happening here so (almost) directly, though my department is hardly conservative. Not to offend, but slight whiffs of the Church of the LDS seem to waft about your post, though I know U of Utah ain't BYU. Is LDS stuff pertinent and, if so, where does that place a (presumably?) quite non-LDS Asst Prof from Columbia? best, Tenney ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 23:20:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: just a general bravo that is to the POETICS list. The last week or so has been especially fractious and, I think, occasionally especially narsty (doan correct THAT spelling!)--but (and?), for me at least, esp. engaging. It's not exactly a "community" in the somewhat saccharine sense that was mooned over a year or so ago here, but it sure is a place to come to mull over the news for the lack of which people are mizzably dying etc pardon my syntax.... Tenney ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 02:14:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kenneth Sherwood Subject: EPCLIVE with Joris and Rothenberg ANNOUNCING an EPCLive *EVENT* with Jerome Rothenberg and Pierre Joris In celebration of their new anthology _Poems for the Millennium: The University of California Book of Modern and Postmodern Poetry_ Rothenberg and Joris will join EPCLive for discussion, argument, and virtual "bow taking". This event will take place between 6:30pm and 8:00pm EST on Monday December 11th. In preparation for this event, the editors have made the book's Contents and Introduction available online (though you'll all want to buy this book!) To check these texts out of the library or to get the dirt on joining this real-time event, check out: http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/epclive Write sherwood@acsu.buffalo.edu or lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu with any questions. ____________________________________________________________________________ Kenneth Sherwood | Dept English v001pxfu@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu | 618 Clemens Hall sherwood@acsu.buffalo.edu | SUNY @ Buffalo |_______Buffalo, NY 14214___________ RIF/T mail: e-poetry@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu Electronic Poetry Center (Web address): http://writing.upenn.edu/epc _____________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 21:20:25 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: Poetry and the Academy In-Reply-To: <199512011828.LAA09504@ns1.indirect.com> I am saving all these messages about what people are doing outside of academia (and enjoying it) for when I'm sliding down the mudpile of the academic job market in a few years. A light in the sludge! Thankyou. Gabrielle ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 00:20:14 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: self service... Yesterday Maria Damon advised: >marisa, how 'bout that book, cant remember title, Travels with ? memoirs of a >homeless guy who traveled w/ his little dog? he's spozed to be a pretty good >writer, had been published in some gay porn-fiction mags before. came out a >few years ago? Maria, you must be thinking of Lars Eighner and his book Travels with Lizbeth. It's a good book, but his porn stories are even better, talk about "self-service," just a tip from- Kevin Killian ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 22:39:32 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: mla In-Reply-To: Moving Leg Ameliorators Most Laugh Again Me Like Ashpits ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 03:13:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Fwd: Guggenheim 95 Tom Vogler backchanneled the following question to me, which is worth thinking about. Except for Schjeldahl, what a dismal list! Ron Silliman ------------------------------------------------------------- Out of curiosity I did a quick count of the "creative" categories for the '95 Gurglehomes (152 awards) and found 14 doing photography or film, 9 painting or similar art medium, 11 doing writing (breakdown below), 2 doing music. The writers broke down into 4 poetry, 3 fiction, 2 playwriting, 2 other. Why do you suppose the poets all have academic gigs, the fiction writers none? POETRY Linda Bierds, Poet, Sr. Lecturer in Creative Writing, Univ. of Washington Michael Collier, Poet and Writer. Assoc. Prof English, Univ. of Maryland at College Park; Director, Bread Loaf Derek Mahon, Poet Distinguished Visiting Prof. Cooper Union for the Advancement of Science and Art. Lynne McMahon, Poet. Assoc. Prof. English, Univ. of Missouri. FICTION Dagoberto Gilb, Writer. El Paso, Tx. Douglas Hobbie, Writer. Conway, Mass. Ann Patchett, Writer. Nashville, Tn. PLAYWRITING David Ives, Playwright. Adjunct Prof. Theatre Arts, Columbia Paula Vogel, Playwright. Prof. English, Brown University. OTHER Ben Katchor, Writer and Artist. Tivoli, NY. "Picture stories." Peter Schjeldahl, Poet and Writer. "A memoir of 3 decades in the NY art world." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 03:21:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Poetry & prisons I recall the Maximum Security Library at Folsom being fairly large 20 years ago, but heavy on the Zane Grey novels. Actually, Don (say hi to John for me) and Aldon, the correlation between prisons and colleges isn't as remote or farcical as you make it seem. UC San Diego's Muir Campus dorms were built by the same architect (and using the SAME BASIC DESIGN) who did most of the Federal Bureau of Prisons' Metropolitan Correctional Centers. And they don't wear stripes, they wear blue jeans these days, at least in California. The supermax prison in the federal system, in Marion, Illinois, was originally a private boy's boarding school that the feds purchased when it went bankrupt. Just as I moved here, there was a show of artists at Eastern Penn, the very first prison in the US (invented by the Quakers who were appalled at chain gangs). Fiona Templeton and others had works in it which I've heard some very interesting things about, but alas did not get to see it. Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 03:42:16 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Should I noticed how Dick Higgins' multiple uses of should and should not got people's hackles up. And I agree that on principle we oughta violate any such sense of containment the minute someone tries to throw up the barriers to discourse. But then I realized that Dick in his own way was answering (for himself only, no doubt) what Tom Kirby-Smith had asked awhile back about how one knows one is a poet. It is precisely the lack of essentialism about such things here (as distinct from the CAP-L list which has a chunk of it) that makes this discussion group the most useful one I've found. Poetry & the MLA, poetry & prisons, poetry & TQM, it's all here.... Hey, Bill, your comment wasn't only ageist, it was flatulantist also. But it is nice to learn that my new company is "eating your lunch"... Ron ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 07:50:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: Pro's & hobbyists > So, Dick Higgins----are they ever gonna reprint that old book of > yours that looks like a BIBLE?-----if not, well BOO WHO YOU. chris Boohoo me? Gee, man, things hurt too much to weep over. I'm done lamenting and am looking into taking a crash course in marksmanship. Anyway yes, that bible-looking book is FOEW&OMBWHNW (pronounced like a horse's whinny) and, though it's been out of print for years, I think you can get a copy for around $30 from Small Press Distributioon in Berkeley or from Jon Hendricks (488 Greenwich St., New Yoirk 10013- fax 212/343-0661). Ass e'er- Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 08:04:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: service classes? >Dick Higgins wrote: >> >> Isn't this the old "Daily Thermes" approach, which Baker used sixty years >> ago? It was still a-going when I was at Yale in the fifties and is still >> used, as you say, on the high schoool level in some places. Indeed it is >> good. But it is a pedagogical question. > >A pedagogical question meaning exclusively not a poetical question? >The connection is much too complex to be dismissed with isolatory >labels. While more often it seems pedagogy resists poetics, I >see no reason why generative dialogue cannot be either >transgressive or radical and certainly can cite many contemp. >examples (in classrooms and/as texts). Instead of raking a divide >between the two I think it would be more productive to meld these genres. > >> >> How you teach is a different question from how you do or what you or anyone >> else's work EXISTS. How does a poem exist once it has left you? Is it the >> same work when it is typeset in Caslon or handwritten? How does it exist in >> the memory? Who are you when you have done it? Those are the questions >> which should be addressed, not the moonings of students who would rather be >> somewhere else (who can blame them) whom you are charged with teachi8ng >> your skills in spite of themselves. > >These are all interesting questions which I can't presume to answer >thoroughly theoretically (tho would like to know those web sites of >contemp. poems.) but I can insist on expanding the realm of poetics past >a thin narrow path of verse commerce. As mentioned by Bill Luoma, some >of what makes lit. crit. poetically versatile is its willingness to >extend beyond Literature to institutions such as shopping malls, but why >not politics, commuting, video games, utopia, numbers, architecture, >cartoons? Are you positing a right poetics vs. wrong poetics, rigorous >vs. trivial theory? I can understand the hesitancy not to allow >EVERYTHING to be grist for poetics, but no one word listserv could ever >sufficiently entice or encapsulate the possibility for discussion, so I >can't assume you've been "misled" by the list. Find much laugh in >Carlyle's "Faaaacts" drawl but when does such become hegemonically >anti-intellectual? When it becomes pedagogical? As for the book >*Natural History of the Intellect* I haven't read it but thus it seems >now I've merely been reading the "unnatural" history of intellect. Woah >was i off the beaten poetics. > >Nonetheless I do enjoy yr posts and was wonder if you could answer yr >question "How does your work EXIST?" with respect to YOUR work? > >bests, >joshua Yeah, I like "daily themes." I know how my work exists. I am the choleric type and when I get desperate enough I stop raging, collect my thoughts and fill in the missing piece which I have noticed, the absence of which was part of my rage. As for Emerson's NATURAL HISTORY OF INTELLECT, it is a much-neglected but fascinating work of his later years in which he matches prominent thinkers and figures to categopries--what we might call archetypes. As for Carlyle on facts, I don't think Carlyle was anti-intellectual particularly. But he was fed up to the gills with what he called "dry-as-dust" historians (read "critics") who had theories and then placed everything else into it, and in works such as PAST AND PRESENT he contrasts the journal of a fictitious medieval monk describing Bury-St.-Edmonds ca. 950 CE with a traditional theoretical historian's approach. Guess which comes out ahead. Carlyle says we need conclusions, but that it takes facts to create the process by which those conclusions come alive. Emerson and Carlyle were, of course, great friends, though Emerson was politically progressive and Carlyle an outright reactionary; but Carlyle's constant reproach to Emerson was that he often failed to relate his theory to the world in front of him. I like to visualize Carlyle when I am writing, standing by my side, warning me not to stray too far from the smell of spilled kerosene. Bests Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 08:09:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: the poetics of boo hoo >Now in one year > a book published > and plumbing-- >took a lifetime > to weep > a deep > trickle > > --Lorine Niedecker Of course Ms. Niedecker is right. But never forget that till recently you could hire mourners to wail at your funeral to set its tone. In the Nerar East little bottles were avbiable to collect the tears of mourners, and these could be buried with you if yopu so chose. Tears, I hope you agree, are no guarantee of either sincerity nor significance. The symphonic poems of Sir Granville Bantock asre full of them, but I wouldn't sentence my very worst enemy to the fate of listening to his FIFINE ART THE FAIR (which opens with a depiction of "A Butterfly Floating on the Sea of Life"). Very bests Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 08:14:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: Fwd: Guggenheim 95 >Tom Vogler backchanneled the following question to me, which is worth >thinking about. Except for Schjeldahl, what a dismal list! > >Ron Silliman >------------------------------------------------------------- > >Out of curiosity I did a quick count of the "creative" categories for >the '95 Gurglehomes (152 awards) and found 14 doing photography or >film, 9 painting or similar art medium, 11 doing writing (breakdown >below), 2 doing music. The writers broke down into 4 poetry, 3 >fiction, 2 playwriting, 2 other. Why do you suppose the poets all have >academic gigs, the fiction writers none? > >POETRY >Linda Bierds, Poet, Sr. Lecturer in Creative Writing, Univ. of >Washington >Michael Collier, Poet and Writer. Assoc. Prof English, Univ. of >Maryland at >College Park; Director, Bread Loaf >Derek Mahon, Poet Distinguished Visiting Prof. Cooper Union for the >Advancement of Science and Art. >Lynne McMahon, Poet. Assoc. Prof. English, Univ. of Missouri. > > >FICTION >Dagoberto Gilb, Writer. El Paso, Tx. >Douglas Hobbie, Writer. Conway, Mass. >Ann Patchett, Writer. Nashville, Tn. > >PLAYWRITING >David Ives, Playwright. Adjunct Prof. Theatre Arts, Columbia >Paula Vogel, Playwright. Prof. English, Brown University. > >OTHER >Ben Katchor, Writer and Artist. Tivoli, NY. "Picture stories." >Peter Schjeldahl, Poet and Writer. "A memoir of 3 decades in the NY art >world." Were there any "creatives" at all outside of academia? Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 08:58:33 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "H. T. KIRBY-SMITH" Organization: University of NC at Greensboro Subject: why i want to be a poet and how you know you are if emily dickinson is a poet i dont wanna be a poet if geoffrey chaucer is a poet i don wanna if the comtesse de dia is a poet no i dont want to be a poet if wallace stevens is a poet no no i dont but if robert bly is a poet oh yes god i want to be a poet ill do anything ill eat rhubarb pie ill vote republican ill read his poems ill buy a renault but i cant be a poet its not on my birth certificate if you are a poet they write it on your birth certificate in the space marked ABNORMALITIES they put nascitur poeta ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 09:01:12 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "H. T. KIRBY-SMITH" Organization: University of NC at Greensboro Subject: how you know youre a poet etc sorry forgot to add jeremy reiskind told me and i hope i spelled his last name right i mean it was jeremy who said they put it on your birth certificate but it was me that did more research and found out what they put ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 09:29:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: Freud and the Library of Congress I would appreciate hearing from anyone who has information about the following matter: The Washington Post on 12-05-95 reports that the Freud exhibit scheduled to appear at the Library of Congress has been cancelled. Although officially the Library claims that the cancellation is due to a lack of funds, the Post suggests that the show has been cancelled because of huge outcry from critics, who apparently signed a petition demanding that the show not take place. The critics identified in the Post article are Peter Swales, a "historian of psychoanalysis," Oliver Sacks, and "feminist author Gloria Steinem." According to the article, Peter Swales is responsible for circling the petition that has led to the cancelling of the show. The article goes on to link these critics with "the revisionist vanguard--including literary deconstructionists, gender studies scholars and academic advocates of group identity--that has toppled orthodoxies in the arts and humanities." Steinem is further quoted on the subject of Freud's "impact" as saying "I would say 70 percent of it is negative and 30 percent of it is positive. His premises about biological determinism have been undermined. He himself was likely abused. He himself suppressed criticism of his work." One critical defender of the show, Freud biographer Peter Gay, is quoted as responding to the criticisms that "they've convinced the convinced. Freud once had a sexy dream about one of his daughters, so they make him into a pedophile. They love that sort of stuff." There is not much information in the article as to what was actually going to be in the show. The Post quotes Library of Congress people as saying that wanted to present a show focusing on Freud "because he has made a decisive difference in 20th-century thought." But Mikkel Borch-Jacobson, refered to as "a prominent Freud detractor," is quoted as saying that the show was going to be "a massive overrepresentation of keepers of the Freud shrine, official historians, practicing analysts, and popular defenders of the psychoanalytic faith." I'd appreciate public discussion from anyone who has more information on the controversy. Obviously, Washington Post representations are not necessarily trustworthy. This was, however, a front-page article, probably as a result of its relation to the recent Enola Gay exhibit controversy at the Smithsonian. Thanks. mark wallace ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 09:56:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Re: Pro's & hobbyists re: FOEW&OMBWHNW Dick didn't you promise to post some sites where we could look at your viz pomes? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 10:01:09 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Keith Tuma Subject: Re: Should In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 6 Dec 1995 03:42:16 -0800 from Ron-- For those of us with clogged disks. . . What's going on in the essentialized poetryminds of CAP-L these days? Does Corn still rule? Histories of versemaking from "plop" to "ploop"? *Should* you care to expound at your leisure. . . --Keith Tuma ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 09:52:21 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: academic incorporations 1... just a few thoughts about this question of academic workers... i've used the subject line above to enable folks who have no wish to read about such doings to quickly detect and hit "delete"... i think it was richard ohmann who argued long ago (in essence) that academics need to start talking politically about academe itself... now if a good portion of poets were steelworkers, and if i were a steelworker, and if somebody suggested (to paraphrase dick---and dick, i'm not picking on you here, it's just that what you posted was at once generous and provocative) that i was "feeling sorry for myself," i'd probably get pissed off and challenge that person to an arm wrestling match... but seeing as how i've no wish to appear manly, and seeing as how most poets are *not* steelworkers, and seeing as how, in fact, many who write poetry *are* (and aren't) teachers, i have to wonder why an informed discussion of what's wrong with the teaching profession, centered around that most anarchic of---is it gonna be "vocations"? (evokes a "calling," no?)---poetry, isn't a worthwhile activity?... in fact, why is this somehow beside the point?... why is it so easy to pick on?... i mean, academics seem more *subject* (all senses of this latter) to the charge of appearing like cry babies or some such, and this imho is why it's generally perceived as ok to rail against mla-orientation, even around here, even as those railed against are themselves railing against the mla (substitute aft (american federation of teachers) or nea (national education association) for mla and you'll see what i mean)... b/c if a good portion of poets around here were un/employed steelworkers, and if they took to lamenting over the relationship twixt their work and poetry (the poetry many of them wrote and read and identified with and through), would this require a separate list?... but it's obvious most folks don't construe steelworkers in such terms---they do "real" work, if they're unemployed it's "serious business"... besides, writing is for sissies... writing is for sissies... think of philip levine's fairly recent _what work is_ (however much i like much of his earlier stuff)... in fact there may be something very gendered about all of this, right?... i mean, even though writing is for sissies, it's much as though academe occupies the feminine somehow wrt poetry (here, anyway), hence can be pooh-poohed in such terms... so mebbe *teaching* is for sissies... so perhaps academe simply lacks something of the archaic residue of poet-hero?... mebbe i'm reading into the situation a bit, yes, so mea culpa... and of course i don't see the remedy for this in terms of regendering as masculine (i.e., arm wrestling)... and of course it seems to me that even the tendency to regard academe in such terms is just FURTHER indication that the academics among us would do well to start to rethink the (teaching) professional [ok, yawn, i know]... i entirely agree that (again, to paraphrase dick) "academia is not the only way to approach these things"---yet it IS one way... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 10:05:14 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: academic incorporations 2... a few scholarly notes: for me, the most interesting historical resonances to what's happening right now with tqm and all are to be found in the period immediately preceding u.s. involvement in the second world war, as well as the war years themselves---circa 1938-1946... just at the actual dawning of the (postwar) cybernetics era... if you haven't already, have a close look at chester irving barnard's _the functions of the executive_ (harvard up, 1938), james burnham's _the managerial revolution_ (indiana up, 1941), carl becker's _new liberties for old_ (yale up, 1941), harold laski's _the american presidency: an interpretation_ (harper, 1941)... also work by lawrence dennis, friedrich hayek, ernst cassirer (_the myth of the state_) to get some idea of what i mean (i'm thinking only of work published during those years)... 'we've' gotten 'here,' it seems to me, by this curious amalgam of corporate-govt. designs of, by, and for "the people," yknow... and the educational environs has often aided and abetted this development, occasionally unwittingly... next, have a look at steve heims' _the cybernetics group_ (mit, 1991) alongside jed rasula's _the american poetry wax museum_, chapter two... and i'll be damned if, in terms of their influence and ultimate significance, the new critics don't start to sound a whole lot like the group involved in the macy conferences on cybernetics (1946-1953)... an aside (my tendency to footnote---oh well): have a look at edwin t. layton, jr.'s _the revolt of the engineers: social responsibility and the american engineering profession_ (johns hopkins up, 1986), to see how corporate america broke the unionizing effort of engineers earlier this century... joe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 11:20:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: ken saro-wiwa guyzies* check the new york times wed dec 6 for some work from Desmond Orage, son of the late Chief SN Orage. Ken saro-wiwa was also his uncle by marriage. "He" took out a two page spread in section A, with nice clip art and arrows that point to important paragraph/events to allow us to make a narrative. Each paragraph/event begins with a large albertus drop cap. Two towards the end go like this: "At the rally of the NYCOP Youth, Ken Saro-Wiwa ordered the Youth to 'go kill the vultures.' Some of the youth would later testify about his order in court." "May 21, 1994. A pre-announced meeting of Ogani Chiefs and Elders was held. The unsuspecting men gathered to discuss the rise in status of two of their sons. Eyewitness accounts indicated that 2000 armed (NYCOP) Youth stormed the Gbeneneme Palace where the meeting of elders and chiefs was being held. Only those whose names appeared on the 'Newsflash' were selectively bludgeoned and killed. Others in attendance went unharmed. Four founding fathers of MOSOP were killed. Their bodies were dragged outside of the palace. Most were beheaded. One was eaten. The remains of the bodies were packed inside a Volkswagon Beetle which was then set afire." ------- An address appears at the bottom of page 17: The Kobani, Badey and Orage Memorial Foundation PO Box 59241 Philadelphia PA 19102 215-545-2458 * with persimmon from md ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 10:09:46 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: academic incorporations 3... now, more on the situation at iit: it's not just galvin/motorola who runs things at iit, it's one of the wealthiest men in america, bob pritzger (last i heard, galvin was "worth" $1 1/2 BILLION, pritzger $3 1/2 BILLION)... these two men are simply the most powerful two folks on our board of trustees... why do i know this?---i mean, like, i've got OTHER THINGS to think about, yknow, like how to teach my classes, like tending to each and every student... and my poetry, for chrissakes, what on earth does this latter have to do with teaching even?... well i know this b/c the shit hit the fan earlier this year on my campus---and undergrad. ed. was threatened with extinction... and this is, so to speak, my bread & butter... so i think those of you who work in academe would do well to begin to acquaint yourselves with your boards of trustees, your governing bodies... and those of you with any interest at all in what your friends and family are doing in higher ed. ought to start to wonder how things have gotten so screwed up... b/c boards are often the 'mysterious' players behind academic decisions... in fact they vote among themselves to 'elect' new members TO the board---so in effect, though governed in general by state laws, they are self-sufficient... now: galvin is a bit of a loose cannon, quipping to the last english minor here at iit, when this latter confronted him re cutting all the humanities undergrad. programs, that (roughly) he 'got more reading done now that he had a chauffeur'... har har har... but it's this sort of remark that reveals the not-so-subtle contempt (and anti-intellectualism) currently fueling decisions to cut "illiberal education," do away with all of us "tenured radicals," rectify the "prof. scam" (alter, in john singleton's ironically convenient phrase, "higher learning," pull it more in line with economic "realities")... now as i'm certain many of you can imagine, even on my own campus there are opposing ideas about the usefulness of the coming changes... as i see it, there are the company folks---those for whom anything but absolute loyalty is disloyalty, and putting a good face on all losses ("no problems, just opportunities") is par for the course... then there are admins. who are caught twixt their faculty loyalties and their loyalty to iit---to see it remain solvent... then there are faculty whose loyalty is to their profession (this is close to moi, though i'm even a bit more autonomous and self-serving, perhaps)... and finally are those who are, like some of the admins., loyal to iit... i'm using this grid of mixed loyalties as a way of describing the complex of institutional motivations... i'm probably in my evaluation, as you might note, one of the harsher critics of what's going down... but in any case we each have loyalties to our families, ideologies, we have our writing commitments, etc.---so it's all very messy... i offer only a brutal critique of the institutional contours... here's an excerpt from the (now foundational) *national commission for iit* document (distributed november of last year)... i'm excerpting only a few sentences (themselves italicized as headings in the original) from this fifty page booklet: Professionals are dedicated to public service. Professionals are committed to continuing personal development. Professionals find hard work fulfilling. Professionals know that technological change is the main engine of economic progress and growth. Professionals recognize that the entrepreneurial spirit is the fuel for both individual and societal progress. following each of these bylines is a short statement as to how iit is meeting such "professional values"... i leave it to each of you to imagine how the cumulative effect of such assertions is "instituted"... the next assertion (this time boldface): Professionals must work in and value our multicultural world. under which This principle, drawn from IIT's original mission, has led IIT to become a highly diverse, international institution. In the global economy of the 21st century, such a commitment to diversity will be even more important. iit *does* in fact have a high number of international students, as do most technical institutes... in fact, there's a strong recruitment effort at the moment aimed at drawing folks from southeast asia in particular... of course the point here is that these folks can *pay* for their educations---which is why they're being wooed... most recently, iit *has* in fact just received from its board of trustees some millions of dollars to fund 30 (and mebbe 60 or 100) 'exceptional' students in engineering-only majors---many of these scholarships cover room, board, tuition, the works... this is Good News for the most part, given that the scholarships presumably will be allocated to exceptional students regardless of economic background, ethnicity, etc... but the fact is, many of us read all of these developments as an attempt by iit, in effect, to end their subsidizing of kids from the chicago area... many of them african-american or latino/a kids who, say, may have had the misfortune of attending the chicago public school system (with it's 50% dropout rate)... subsidizing such students, finally, COSTS... so while undergrad. ed is NOT a profit-making activity, asking that it BECOME one becomes in essence smokescreen for a move toward generating revenue from students, with the guarantee of endowment monies from powerful board members who are "satisfied" that you're playing financial hardball, and educating students *their way*... iit has been in deep shit financially for years, and its endowment is, at best, modest... ergo, now we have to join the rest of the world, ysee, b/c after all, the "bottom line," as i hear so often, is profit... many of us initially viewed the scholarship endowment as a 'bribe' to cajole us into approving (then imminent) faculty governance procedural changes that would in effect permit the institution to eliminate fully tenured folks (in the event of financial exigency) BEFORE untenured folks... in any case, these scholarships say nothing as to the woeful state of the institution---buildings need work, iit is now trying to lease some campus buildings for additional revenue (as programs are reduced or consolidated), etc. (to give you some idea: $262 per annum in english journals, and we were asked to whittle this down!---so now there *are* no english journals in our library... i could go on and on here, but aldon, for one, clearly knows this tune better than me)... and these changes say nothing as to the proposed accounting scheme (look carefully at this stuff, folks) that would in effect INCREASE humanities deficit spending with an INCREASE in freshman enrollment---b/c we have no majors (!---note that under the current financial model, we're something like $750,000 in the red BECAUSE we're a service organization and have no majors (mind you, with the lowest pay and highest teaching loads on campus))... further, that the new "financial principles" would have permitted the board of trustees to eliminate any program or dept. with a deficit two years' running... this was effectively stopped (at least, for now), but the status of humanities is currently compromised by a proposal (now approved) to incorporate two or three of the required twelve humanities hours (that's it---twelve hours required by abet in history, philosophy, english for an engineering degree) into an "interprofessional project"... which in effect is a project meant to familiarize students with the 'real world' of the corporation... and we're to find a way to do what we do within said rubric... consider, in addition, the extent to which corporate imperatives drive accreditation agencies like abet (this is the accreditation board for engineering and technology)... i think this does it for now... but again, this gives some idea what's going on in academe, not that awful drivel one generally hears ushering forth from the bennetts and gingriches and kimballs and d'souzas of the privileged world... joe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 12:13:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: total quality mangled ulmer spring (welcome are you new?) wrote: to do with jail and fairness, everyone should read Brother Soledad by George Jackson... yes, it ws one of those "formative" books for me in my early 20s. lots of good stuff on prisons out there, including tons of prison poetry anthologies from the 70s and 80s.--md ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 12:13:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Poetry and cult studs how can we get ross talarico on the list --does anyone know him?--md ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 12:40:46 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: Freud and the Library of Congress Piece on Freud in today's ny times too. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 12:42:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: benefactors, patrons, angels Conclusion-the poetics bulletin board should be precisely what it was established to be, a POETICS discussion group. The people who need to chatter about the MLA should have their own discussion group. And as for poetry, there are increasing numbers of e-mags and sites with poetry, visual or otherwise. Each has its own function- and, I might add, its own legitimacy. But they are not the same thing. By the way, I will be happy to swap site info on places where my own poetry is or where I have found poems I like. WE can then discuss those pieces, which means we will be focusing on stuff that is current and which presumably reflects our time and predicaments in a fairly raw way. ____ Dick! buddy! glad you're here! How long have you been here, anyway? We sure could have used you when we were battling with Alfred Corn! Did you hear about that? Have you checked out the archives of this mailing list At the Electronic Poetry Center? That's a pretty good site. http://writing.upenn.edu/epc You should see what people here have to say about William Carlos Williams! I guess I got flustered by your good ol' Poundian "ruff-em-up" Because it came in the middle of a discussion About teaching and the connection of poetry to society Specifically a proposed class on poetry and hunger! This seemed to me to come from almost exactly the same place If, it's true, with a different slant, That the people we speak of as resuscitating the discussion of POETICS In America came from--poetry and society and I don't mean To go along with any "intentional fallacy" arguments but I don't see the point of telling people What they're supposed to be talking about. All the Best, Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 09:48:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: Freud and the Library of Congress Mark, There is an article about this controversy in the latest _Lingua Franca_. If you can't find it, send me your address and I'll mail it to you. I'm done with it. I hope it's okay with Al Nielsen that I read this article, since he condemned the last piece I mentioned from the _New Yorker_. Like I could see smoke fuming up from his keyboard. Dodie Bellamy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 13:07:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: Pro's & hobbyists Comments: cc: Dick Higgins >re: FOEW&OMBWHNW > >Dick didn't you promise to post some sites where we could look at your viz >pomes? My poems in general, yes. It's an odd selection which is available at the moment (no sound poems for instance) but this too is interesting--there seems to be a whole new wave of interest in visual poems. Does anyone have an explanation for this? Anyway, here are my favorite poetry and new art sites: 5. December, 1995 Web Sites Sites I am on or am linked from- Cage Page-http://www.emf.net/~mal/cage.html =46luxus-http://www.panix.com/fluxus Goldsmith's Page [Kenny]-http://wfmu.org:80/=97kennyg/index.html Left Hand Books-http://csbh.mhv.net/~lefthandb Light and Dust Poets-http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/lighthom.html [Karl Young's in=1Fdex page at Grist; includes me, Alison & many others] Marco, Joe de-http://www.cinenet.net/=97marco [has many Fluxthings including =46riedman's album] Interesting Poetry- Atomic Books-http://www.atomicbooks.com/atomicbk/ [Baltimore store with excellent pop culture and political links] Avec-http://www.crl.com/~creiner/syntax/sampler.html (good lit mag) Computer Generated Writing-http://www.uio.no/~mwatz/c-g writing Electronic Poetry Center-http://www.gopher://writing.upenn.edu/hh/internet/library/e-journals/ ub/rift/.hotlist Grist-http://www.thing.net/~grist/ Left Hand Books- (see above) Light and Dust Poets- (see above) Taproots Review-http://www.writing.upenn.edu/epc/ezines/ (=3DTRee, best review medium I know) Other New Arts- American Council on the Arts-http://www.artsusa.org/ Art sites index-gopher://chico.rice.edu:70/11/subject Cage Page (see above) =46estival de Cr=E9ation Multim=E9dia On Line-http://www.cicv.fr =46luxus- (see above) Gering, Sandra-http://www.interport.net/=97gering Goldsmith's Page [Kenny]- (see above) Idaho Center for the Book Arts-http://www.uidaho.edu/~schla932/ Left Hand Books- (see above) Marco, Joe de- (see above) New Music Net [Oliveros]-http://www.tmn.com/Oh/Artswire/www/NewMusNet/nmnhome.html Rift-gopher://writing.upenn.edu:70/hh/internet/library/e-journals/ub/rift/ri= ft Surrealism server [links to dada, futurism, etc.]--http://pharmdec.wustl.edu/juju/surr/ Sources for books- Amazon Books-http://www.amazon.com (they claim to be able to get any book listed in Books in Print) Biblio Mailing List Archive-http://www.smartdocs.com/biblio-mail Chip's Home Page-http://virtumall.com/homepages/chip/main.html [excellent info on zines of all kinds] Gets other listings for poetry- Lycos Home Page-http://www.lycos.com/ Poetics at Buffalo-http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/poetics/ Salon-http://www.salon1999.com/ (crud that Adobe and Apple think is state of the art-funny!) Yahoo-http://www.yahoo.com/art Very bests Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 09:53:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Don Cheney Subject: Re: totalitarian human control bravo, aldon. sorry if i ranted in my post. the prison my brother in has zero resources unless you want to work out. he's had time to think and i've been able to send him books (only through publishers or bookstores, though i've found ways around that rule) but basically he's been sitting there for three years now. no classes. a joke of a library. treated like scum by guards. and i reacted on that level. that and it seems (because my ears are open to it) i keep hearing media reports on how cushy prisons are (you know the spiel) and that has not been my brother's experience. and ron: thanks for your post. and yes, they still wear denim. when you visit you can't wear any denim or clothing with any kind of insignia. don dcheney@ucsd.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- In the state of California this year, the Governor, for the first time in state history, submitted an initial budget which included more dollars for prisons than for higher education. Many elementary schools are now without librarians of any type, good or bad. When the media attempt to give us the impression that people in prison have it cushy, they seldom show us pictures of inmates in the library (that only seems to come up when they imply that inmates shouldn't be allowed to study law because, god help us, they might actually use their knowledge to APPEAL their sentences, and where would we be if innocent people could get out of jail on appeal %$^&(%)) --- look -- I've been in jail,,,, not for long, admittedly, but I'm of an age to have been busted in demonstrations and frequently picked up for no reason at all back in the days when, for instance, the New Jersey Highway Patrol would arrest any racially integrated group of people driving in a van. I have relatives in prison. At the rate this country is going we may soon all have relatives in prison, or be there ourselves. Jail might be nice if you're Michael Milken (sp?) but point is, this same rampant "privatize everything" mood is at work in the prison budgets as well -- Who has not noticed that, along with the reintroduction of the chain gang and rock busting, more jails are being operated for profit, and more of the jailed are producing income for someone other than themselves -- We live in a society that is more interested in locking people up than in educating them -- Most of the prison systems I am aware of, while they still have something resembling an education program, have cut back on possibilities for college level training, even as more money is spent on the system itself -- When I was a student at the former Federal City College, we had a college degree program operating at Lorton Reformatory -- You can guess how popular that is with the Repub. Revolt -- Please, let's not confuse things -- It is a fact that prisons in this state get more money than higher ed (from the state, that is -- UC gets lots of other money, as Ron detailed here) -- That money goes to support an ever-expanding penal regime,, a business that relies upon having more people jailed for longer periods of time -- The disciplinary effects of this should be obvious without aid of Foucault --= The cushy ones are the people who make an industry of keeping large segments of the population uneducated and locked up -- That's what I've been talking about here -- the poetics of confinement, I think, would be a suitable point for discussion -- Particulary on a day when a court has ruled against attempts to hold the federal government reponsible for slavery -- >-- Saved internet headers (useful for debugging) >Received: from listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu by mail.ucsd.edu; id WAA21160 sendmail >Received: from listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu (listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7. >Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LISTSERV release >Received: from UBVM (NJE origin SMTP@UBVM) by UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail >Received: from athens.SJSU.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with >Received: (from anielsen@localhost) by athens.SJSU.EDU (8.6.11/8.6.11) id >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >Message-ID: >Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 21:54:21 -0800 >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >Sender: UB Poetics discussion group >From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" >Subject: Re: totalitarian human control >To: Multiple recipients of list POETICS >In-Reply-To: <199512060507.AAA17540@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 12:45:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: I'll second Schjeldahl Katchor's comic, "Julius Knipl, Real Estate Photographer", is so off it's on. Not dismal at all. Dagoberto Gilb writes some pretty strong stuff for NPR. I'll second Schjeldahl. Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 16:26:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: self service... our own brightcolored kk writes: Maria, you must be thinking of Lars Eighner and his book Travels with Lizbeth. It's a good book, but his porn stories are even better, talk about "self-service," just a tip from- Kevin Killian *** aye aye the very one (hiya kev!)-md ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 16:26:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: mla much less attractive ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 16:26:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Poetry & prisons ron s writes: The supermax prison in the federal system, in Marion, Illinois, was originally a private boy's boarding school that the feds purchased when it went bankrupt. *** yes, and genet's fontevrault, oppressive scene of many a homerotic tryst, had been a nunnery. and the national library in mexico city had been a max security prison.--md ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 16:26:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: tart fruit luoma writes: * with persimmon from md **thanks guyzy i'm duly humbled but appreciative.--md ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 16:33:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: benefactors, patrons, angels >Conclusion-the poetics bulletin board should be precisely what it >was established to be, a POETICS discussion group. The people who need to >chatter about the MLA should have their own discussion group. And as for >poetry, there are increasing numbers of e-mags and sites with poetry, >visual or otherwise. Each has its own function- and, I might add, its own >legitimacy. But they are not the same thing. > >By the way, I will be happy to swap site info on places where my own poetry >is or where I have found poems I like. WE can then discuss those pieces, >which means we will be focusing on stuff that is current and which >presumably reflects our time and predicaments in a fairly raw way. > >____ > >Dick! buddy! glad you're here! >How long have you been here, anyway? >We sure could have used you when we were battling with Alfred Corn! >Did you hear about that? >Have you checked out the archives of this mailing list >At the Electronic Poetry Center? That's a pretty good site. >http://writing.upenn.edu/epc >You should see what people here have to say about William Carlos Williams! >I guess I got flustered by your good ol' Poundian "ruff-em-up" >Because it came in the middle of a discussion >About teaching and the connection of poetry to society >Specifically a proposed class on poetry and hunger! >This seemed to me to come from almost exactly the same place >If, it's true, with a different slant, >That the people we speak of as resuscitating the discussion of >POETICS >In America came from--poetry and society and I don't mean >To go along with any "intentional fallacy" arguments but >I don't see the point of telling people >What they're supposed to be talking about. All the >Best, >Jordan Thanks. I guess the best thing to do now is to set a good example and hope the profs will set up their own place for discussing their very real problems. Bests Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 17:25:38 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Zukowski Subject: Chicago reading For those of you in or around Chicago, or who will be in town for the MLA, Private Arts Press is sponsoring a reading: PRIVATE IN PUBLIC reading series presents a reading by CHARLES BERNSTEIN and DOUGLAS MESSERLI Friday, December 29 6:00 p.m. Museum of Contemporary Art Site Cafe/Bookstore 237 East Ontario admission free information: (312) 280-2473 The PRIVATE IN PUBLIC reading series at the Museum of Contemporary Art has begun to garner a reputation around town for making the finest of innovative writers accessible to the public in a pleasant and informal venue. It will be a wonderful event so spread the word!!! I look forward to meeting as many of you there as possible. Thanks. Peter Zukowski zukowski@uic.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:56:25 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Poetry and the academy but, Mark, it cd do with some shorter lines every- thing depends upon a little red thing [L subscribers avert yr by now red faces Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:58:24 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Freud and the Library of Congress Freudians in Washington will have to wait for the return of the repressed? Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:14:39 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: geezers geezers is the word you want, Tenney. Geysers are some thing else, to do with volcanic activity and water, and fun to watch. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 22:10:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jeffrey timmons Subject: Re: Freud and the Library of Congress In-Reply-To: Mark, New York Times had a story today too, but with even less info than what you say the post had. Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 23:31:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: right but >Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:14:39 GMT+1200 >From: Tony Green >Subject: geezers > >geezers is the word you want, Tenney. Geysers are some thing else, to >do with volcanic activity and water, and fun to watch. > >Tony Green, >e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz right, but "this time" (at least if you're referring to my most recent post or so) I did it on purpose. anyway geezers are fun to watch too. I spoze I should take advantage of my fancy Eudora mailer and run spell checks on my posts, since I obviously can't spell, but jeez (or geez) btw enjoy most all your posts. best, Tenney ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 22:28:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: prison reading lists In-Reply-To: <199512070506.AAA27516@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> here's a sad fact for you -- the reason I have recently been able to find out what poets Harold Carrington (_Drive Suite_) and Ray Bremser (BEAT) were reading as they wrote those early poems is that, as inhabitants of the slammer, they had to get their books mailed in directly from the small press publishers, and sd records of such reading wound up where we boo hooing mla types can pore over them (Carrington, by the way, was pissed when Bremser got out and took their joint collection out of the joint with him) -- They still read your mail in most jails, too -- which is more than some of us editors do -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 22:30:18 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: ". . . " In-Reply-To: <199512070506.AAA27516@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> dodie -- your readings always cool with me -- I was just getting spooked by different sentences from the ones what spooked you -- thanks for the alert to the additional article -- I'd only seen the wire story on it -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 22:32:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: country joe amato In-Reply-To: <199512070506.AAA27516@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> that's one intriguing reading list! Have you, as is common among us writer types, written something as a result of that reading??? There were some books there I hadn't known about -- thanks much ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 02:36:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: CAP-L renga You wrote: > >Ron-- > >For those of us with clogged disks. . . > >What's going on in the essentialized poetryminds of CAP-L these days? > >Does Corn still rule? Histories of versemaking from "plop" to "ploop"? > >*Should* you care to expound at your leisure. . . > >--Keith Tuma > They are preparing to invent the CAP-L version of renga. This, it turns out, is a masquerade of dramatic monologues to be written and posted on New Years Eve. Elaborate conceits abound that have caused my eyes to glaze over (very Umberto Eco-esque), but it involves writing a dramatic monologue (DM in the CAP-L terminology) as if it were written by one author "speaking" as another. Thus, Jacques Lacan writing as Lao Tse. All of which are supposed to have occurred at certain abbey, etc..... Hey, I don't make this stuff up! Ron ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:06:11 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: reading lists... aldon, just old stuff for the diss. i did some time ago now with don byrd (one of the few folks at the time who understood the connections)... anyway, please don't rush out to read same---too "serious," not enough dance... it's a diss., i mean... but i guess i'll plug such work by saying that a recent poetic project, _lake affect_, takes full advantage of that reading list in some kinda off-the-wall ways... can't find anybody yet who's interested in publishing same [hint hint], but i'm determined to get it 'out there'... i could upload the sucker on the web, i s'pose, but at the moment my commitment to web-work is such that i'm reserving self-publishing of this latter variety for an electronic, uhm, children's hypertext, so to speak... whenever i can get around to finishing this latter... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 11:43:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: prison reading lists i seem to have missed out on a prison reading list posted by our own dear joe amato. cd you send it me direct ("Backchannel") --in the late 70s i was on the periphery of what was then called "prison work" (that is, bail funds, prisoner advocacy etc, rather than working in or for prisons) and collected some ephemera from the various MA prisons, norfolk, walpole etc --and just picked up a slim anthology called In Time at Grolier's, an anth. of women's prison poetry. such stuff continues to turn me on--also, a good poet is Judy Lucero, a Chicana writing from prison in the late 1970s who died young.--md ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 11:43:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: purism on the list hey guyzies, geezers and geysers, and esp dick higgins, i appreciate the scolding viz mla boohooing (i do tend to get all wrapt up in professional self-pity) --i think, though, that part of the charm of the list is its anti-purism. as herb levy said in a memorable post to alfred corn, (or do i paraphrase) the list is full of contention, corny jokes, strands and contra-strands running every which way. the renga phenomenon, tho it became overwhelming eventually and did break off, was a fun, whacky digressive jaunt --dare i say shandy-esque, or does that reveal me as one of those wonks who took qualifying exams lo these many years ago --so, babe, relax, enjoy, and keep sounding off --md ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:02:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Fwd: Guggenheim 95 In-Reply-To: <199512061113.DAA10166@ix2.ix.netcom.com> from "Ron Silliman" at Dec 6, 95 03:13:07 am Yes, the list is dismal indeed, as Ron says, but that's not surpsiing as we all well know. My bedside reading this week is >Jed Rasula's AMERICAN POETRY WAX MUSEUM, in which Jed offers complete lists & breaddowns of the various prizes & grants over the years -- worthwhile pondering! It is, BTW, a superb analysis of the US poetry scene since 1940 -- a must for anybody on this list! Pierre ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Poems are sketches for existence." Dept. of English | --Paul Celan SUNY Albany | Albany NY 12222 | "Revisionist plots tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | are everywhere and our pronouns haven't yet email: | drawn up plans for the first coup." joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --J.H. Prynne ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 22:10:54 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: ylang ylang ylang ylang - essential oil from northern Madagascar, used as a base for myriad perfumes. Arguably best raw. love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 22:57:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Jeff Hanson - Request My apologies to the list, but Jeff Hanson, could you contact me backchannel? I've misplaced your address, and need to talk with you. Thanks. Sheila Murphy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 02:40:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Shandy-esque --dare i say shandy-esque, or does that reveal me as one of those wonks who took qualifying exams lo these many years ago --md Anybody on this list who has NOT read Tristram Shandy should (to use Dick Higgins' favorite word) correct that condition post haste. One of the great sadnesses of the novel as a form is that the first one should still be the best. (On the other hand, I haven't read the original Marjorie Kemp, another such contender as I understand.) But then I think of Chaucer as "strictly for pleasure" -- Ron ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 03:35:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Tom Field The following appeared in yesterday's SF Chronicle. A memorial will be held Sunday for Tom Field, a noted Bay Area painter. Mr. Field died of cancer November 14 in San Francisco. He was 65. Mr. Field was born in Fort Wayne, Ind. He attended the Fort Wayne Art School before serving as an Army medic in Korea from 1951 to 1953. He attended Black Mountain College, an experimental institution in North Carolina, from 1953 to 1956. There, he studied painting under Joseph Fiore and humanities under the poets Charles Olson and Robert Creeley. In 1956, he came to San Francisco and became a friend of many Beat writers. He joined Albert Saijo, Lew Welch and Philip Whalen to found a Zen Buddhist community called Hyphen House. He met Jack Kerouac, and appears in Kerouac's novel ``Big Sur'' under the pseudonym Lanny Meadows. Mr. Field worked as a merchant seaman in the Sailors' Union of the Pacific, of which he remained a member until 1969. He had a studio in North Beach for many years, and later spent 10 years painting in a cabin at Bodega Bay. His paintings were shown at the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art and several leading galleries. This year his work was included in a group show in Vancouver, British Columbia. As an artist, he was associated with Jess Collins, Knute Stiles and other painters of the so-called San Francisco Renaissance, as well as with poets Robert Duncan, Jack Spicer, Ebbe Borregaard and others. A memorial will be held at 1 p.m. at East-West House, 733 Baker Street, San Francisco. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:16:30 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beard Subject: Shandy & Diderot >Anybody on this list who has NOT read Tristram Shandy should (to use >Dick Higgins' favorite word) correct that condition post haste. & if you enjoyed Shandy you'll love Diderot's "Jacques the Fatalist". As entertaining as Richardson, as radical, and more readable (if only because C18 French translated into C20 English is easier to read than C18 English). An anti -novel before the novel was really established. Didn't Kundera turn this into a play? The Enlightenment gets a bad press from post-structuralist types, but my understanding of the Enlightenment has always centred more upon Diderot than sour old Rousseau. Try also "D'Alembert's Dream", a speculative dialogue that prefigures evolution, neural networks, artificial intelligence and theories of consciousness. Tom Beard. ______________________________________________________________________________ I/am a background/process, shrunk to an icon. | Tom Beard I am/a dark place. | beard@met.co.nz I am less/than the sum of my parts... | Auckland, New Zealand I am necessary/but not sufficient, | http://www.met.co.nz/ and I shall teach the stars to fall | nwfc/beard/www/hallway.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 07:45:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: Fwd: Guggenheim 95 In-Reply-To: <199512071802.NAA29962@loki.hum.albany.edu> I like Pierre's rather Freudian typo--a "breaddown" rather than a "breakdown" of the US poetry scene. It manages to suggest both Bread Loaf and "bed down." 'Nuff said. Gwyn ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 09:05:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Re: Tom Field Has anyone read Lew Welch's ba thesis on stein? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 09:26:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ULMER SPRING Subject: an announcement for a show. if anyone is in town i am having a show with sarah rianhard at the cooper union houghton gallery 7 east 7th st. manhattan, dec 12-16, opening dec 12, 6-8 pm. text, photos, and videos. all are invited. spring ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 08:26:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: Tom Field Dear Ron, Thank you for posting the notice of Tom Field's death. Of course the immediate interest in Field here in SF is because of his connection with Kerouac and the "Lanny Meadows" thing. Of course this will be all to the good in the longer run, since Stephen Schwartz (!!!) will perhaps haul out the big guns for the planned retrospective Field show which Paul A;exander, Ernie Edwards, etc are planning, particularly when he sees the "Kerouac" painting, the collaboration between TF and JK, a typical late fifties kind of AE thing by Field (in other words totally gorgeous) which Kerouac "defaced" by adding a scrawled men's room graffito of his own cock and balls. It is just *meant* for the Chronicle, Francis Ford Coppola, Lisa Phillips etc. I will send you the notice from the B A R which rounds out the picture a bit more by details some of Tom's work with Duncan, Helen Adam, Joanne Kyger, Robin Blaser, etc. In the meantime let me honor his memory by posting Spicer's poem from "Homage to Creeley." (The odd thing, though it was entirely a coincidence, is that Tom Field, Paul and James Alexander and Lew Ellingham, were all from Fort Wayne, Indiana, which must have been the Tulsa, or Topeka, of another generation)-Love, Kevin Fort Wayne The messages come through at last: "We are the ghosts of Christmas past Our bodies are a pudding boiled With sixteen serpents and a narrow blade." I asked my silly messengers to sing it again "We are the advantages that hate all men Our bodies are a pudding boiled With sixteen serpents and a narrow blade." For there are poems and Christmas pies And loves like our while you blink your eyes And love rises up like a butterfly "Our bodies are a pudding boiled With sixteen serpents and a narrow blade." -------------------------------------- A dialogue between The Poet and passed Christmases. Fort Wayne stands on the American fortress between California and reality. It is a geographical point. The passed Christmases want to know more than they have any right to. So does The Poet. Neither in the last analysis is satisfied. The pudding is made of a number of serpents that move among us and a knife to cut them with. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:31:56 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gale Nelson Subject: Re: purism on the list In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 7 Dec 1995 11:43:41 -0500 from Maria, I missed the point in the renga where Uncle Toby actually lights his pipe. Perhaps Trim was doing this for him, in _his own dream of books._ Cheers, Gale ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 10:11:56 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: The Prisonhouse of Lists In-Reply-To: <199512080506.AAA28712@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Maria -- two strands have gooten conflated, no doubt due to my tendency towards shorthand -- What Jose posted, and what I was thanking him for, was a series of readings on another subject -- My ref. to prison reading lists was describing lists of things poets (in this case Carrington & Bremser) read _while_ they were incarcerated -- (It was Carrington's jailhouse subscription to _Floating Bear_, you may recall, that got DiPrima and Baraka arrested for sending obscenity thru the mails -- the jail censor read Carrington's copy & called the Feds) -- That's "Joe," not "Jose" Though Mr. Guitart, in addition to his other fine works, has really good poetry in the anthology edited by Ray Gonzales -- And the errors above in this message indicate that I am once again in L.A. -- upside is that I don't have to commute on the I5 for the next 12!!! months -- downside is that I'm back at that uncorrectable keyboard -- but maybe now I'll have time to load some other system onto my laptop -- Great new books in my mail from P. Phillips and S. Ratcliffe -- not only is the poetry superb, the cover art is suitable, as they say, for framing,,, and that's "Jorge" -- can't type to save my life this morning -- $$^%*&%^&*^*)&(^&*(&^)^ will try again Sat., when my digits is rested apologies in advance to anybody else whose name I mangle this week -- payback fro all the years of people pronouncing me "All done" or turning me into a "Nelson" aldon (pronounced "al dun") ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 13:49:55 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: purism on the list Gale Nelson wrote: > I missed the point in the renga where Uncle Toby actually lights his pipe. > Perhaps Trim was doing this for him, in _his own dream of books._ _____ Gale, Toby lights his cigar in the forthcoming renga, _Zeno Unbound_. Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 13:56:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: purism on the list To no-one in particular-- ever feel like a cardboard cutout, a parody of a promise, of a past? When the "wit machine dries up.... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 14:13:13 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gale Nelson Subject: Re: purism on the list In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 8 Dec 1995 13:49:55 +0000 from Jordan, I'm glad to hear that Uncle Toby lights up -- but will he inhale? Gale ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 14:21:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Howard Shoemaker Subject: our daily bread/th I've set up a separate server for all those wanting to discuss MLA shmooze strategies. For subscription instructions, go to http://www.chicago95.kissass.html This morning i stopped whining about mla and the state of the academy & almost immediately had a profound insight into the very essence of poetics. Then i graded some student essays & forgot what it was... Anyhoo, responding to Marissa's post of a couple days ago, here's Kay Boyle's poem "Poets," which kicks off Codrescu's Up Late anthology. I also remember there being good stuff on hunger-writing in Henry Miller's Tropic of Cancer. And check out Mina Loy's Insel--great surrealist body-stuff, w/ a main char. so thin he disappears when he turns sideways. Sorry there's no "poetics" in this post. Mebbe next time. steve Poets, minor or major, should arrange to remain slender, Cling to their skeletons, not batten On provender, not fatten the lean spirit In its isolated cell, its solitary chains. The taught paunch ballooning in its network of veins Explodes from the cummerbund. The hardening artery of neck Cannot be masked by turtle-throated cashmere or foulard of mottled silk. Poets, poets, use rags instead; use rags and consider That Poe did not lie in the morgue swathed Beyond recognition in fat. Consider on this late March Afternoon, with violet and crocus outside, fragile as glass, That the music of Marianne Morre's small polished bones Was not muffled, the score not lost between thighs as thick as bass-fiddles Or cat-gut muted by dropsy. Baudelaaire did not throttle on corpulence, Rimbaud not strangle on his own grease. In the unleafed trees, as I write, Birds flicker, lighter than lace. They are the lean spirit, Beaks asking for curmbs, their voices like reeds. William Carlos Williams sat close, close to the table always, always, Close to the typewriter keys, his body not held at bay by a drawbridge of flesh Under his doctor's dress, no gangway to lower, letting the sauces, The starches, the strong liquor, enter and exit With bugles blowing. Over and over he was struck thin By the mallet of beauty, the switchblade of sorrow, died slim as a gondola, Died curved like the fine neck of a swan. These were not gaagged, strangled, outdone by the presence Of banquet selves. They knew words make their way through navel and pore, More weightless as thistle, as dandelion drift, unencumbered. Death happens to fatten on poets' glutted hearts. ("Dylan!" Death calls, and poet scrambles drunk and alone to what were once swift, bony feet, Casting a monstroud shadow of gargantuan flesh before he crashes.) Poets, remember your skeletons. In youth or dotage, remain as light as ashes. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 14:40:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: purism on the list > To no-one in particular-- > ever feel like a cardboard cutout, a parody of a promise, of a past? > > When the "wit machine > dries up.... If you are tired of your own past, please borrow mine. I find pasts quite overrated, and they tend to keep one from the work at hand. Bests Dick Higgins Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 16:00:37 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ange Mlinko/PWS/International Thomson Publishing Subject: wilderness petition In _A Poetics_ Bernstein compares poets to the wilderness--out there, somewhere, and quietly, the air is being purified. For the sake of our metaphorical counterparts, sign & pass on!--Ange Mlinko Message-Id: <9512081332.AA26317@sum-1.MIT.EDU> To: mitoc@MIT.EDU Subject: wilderness petition-please sign! Date: Fri, 08 Dec 1995 08:32:01 EST From: Benjamin T Bruening Content-Length: 7000 - - ------- Forwarded Message - -------------------------- Subject: Canyonlands Petition ! * ! * ! * SIGN THIS PETITION IF YOU CARE ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT, THE DESERT, PROTECTION OF PRISTINE WILDERNESS AREAS! * ! * As this editorial in the New York Times states, two very very bad bad bad bills: HR 1745 and its senate counterpart S884, are currently proposing wilderness annihilation in the beautiful desert lands of Utah. Read the following article if you want more details. This is a NATIONAL issue, and an issue of misrepresentation-- the people of Utah do not want this bill passed and their representatives are not listening. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS SIGN YOUR NAME TO THIS LIST AND SEND IT ON TO 5 OTHER PEOPLE. IF YOU ARE A TENTH PERSON TO SIGN YOUR NAME, FORWARD THE LIST BACK TO ME: whittle@owlnet.rice.edu (i.e. the 10th, 20th, 30th person will forward this message to me in progress) I will compile the petition and send it to the important senators, etc. PETITION BEGINS HERE: "I do not support wilderness annihilation bills HR 1745 and S884. I am in favor of Senator Hinchey's and the Utah citizen's proposal to designate AT LEAST 5.7 million acres of PROTECTED wilderness in southern Utah." # NAME E-MAIL (not obligatory) PLACE OF RESIDENCE - -- -------------- ------------------------- ------------- 1. Elizabeth Whittlesey whittle@owlnet.rice.edu Texas, orig. Utah 2. Cori Nelson corin@leland.stanford.edu CA, orig. Utah 3. Erin Johnson ejohnson@minerva.cis.yale.edu CT, orig. Utah 4. Sung-Min Chung sucker@minerva.cis.yale.edu CT, orig. MD 5. Thomas Socci NY, NY 6. Sofia Yakren NY 7. Elizabeth Kanter MA, orig. NJ 8. Amelia Kaplan akaplan@fas.harvard.edu NJ 9. Emily Hobson ehobson@fas.harvard.edu CA 10. Adam Dylan Hefty hefty@fas.harvard.edu KS 11. Eric Albert edalbert@fas.harvard.edu NJ 12. Daniel Mason dmason@fas.harvard.edu CA 13. Joshua Mooney moondog@dartmouth.edu CA 14. Erica Brandling-Bennett beeb@dartmouth.edu VA 15. Allison Brugg Alli.Brugg@Dartmouth.edu CT 16.Leah Campbell Cams@Dartmouth.edu NY 17.Tamar Kraft-Stolar tk38@cornell.edu NY 18. Zoe Weinrobe zrw1@cornell.edu MA 19. Anna Spraycar ams40@cornell.edu MD 20. Jessica Shattuck MD 21. Karen E. Thomas kethomas@phoenix.princeton.edu CA 22. Steven W. Thomas Providence, RI 23. Chris Harley harley@zoology.washington.edu 24. Jennie Hoffman WA 25. Eric Sanford sanforde@bcc.orst.edu OR 26. Philip Brownell brownell@bcc.orst.edu OR 27. Ben Brownell bbrownell@pomona.edu OR 28. Brian Cross bcross@pomona.edu CA 29. Nathaniel Gilbert ngilbert@pomona.edu CA, WA 30. David Severson severson@lclark.edu OR, WA 31. Benjamin Kalm kalm@lclark.edu UT 32. Samantha Riesenfeld riesenf@fas.harvard.edu UT 33. Karen Lepri lepri@fas.harvard.edu MA 34. Becca Lowenhaupt rlowenh@fas.harvard.edu MA, MO 35. Frank Gorke gorke@fas.harvard.edu MA, MA 36. Jeff Evans jevans@itsmail1.hamilton.edu MA, NY 37. Scott Ribich sribich@mit.edu MA, MA 38. Derek Bruening iye@mit.edu UT 39. Benjamin Bruening muawiya@mit.edu UT 40. Georgianna M. Lirot lirot@mit.edu MA, CT 41. Jeff Zifcak RI, MA 42. Tanja Brull CA 43. Ange Mlinko MA - ------Editorial in the New York Times, November 15, 1995---------- . . .There is another test just around the corner. Companion bills in the House and Senate would take about 22 million acres of Federal land in Utah now run by the Federal Bureau of Land Management, give wilderness protection to a mere 1.8 million acres in southeastern Utah's fabled canyonlands and open the rest to mining, road-building and development. The bills are sponsored by Representative James Hansen and Senator Orrin Hatch, both Utah Republicans. A competing bill sponsored by Representative Maurice Hinchey of New York is much better. It would protect 5.7 million acres, which environmentalists think is the minimum require maintain the integrity of the canyonlands. According to several polls, Utah's rank-and-file citizens prefer the Hinchey approach and believe that there is more to be gained from tourism if the terrain is left alone than from bulldozing some of the nation's most fragile and scenic lands. But Utah's Congressional delegation prefers the bulldozer. Critics of the Hatch-Hansen bill have two further complaints. First, it would undermine the intent of the 1964 Wilderness Act--an act that designates wilderness as a place "where man him- self is but a visitor"--by allowing development even in the 1.8 million protected acres. Second, it forecloses the possibility of future wilderness designations. The B.L.M. will continue to manage the 20 million Utah acres left unprotected by the Hansen- Hatch bills. But the bills say the land must hence- forth be reserved for commercial users. Wilderness designation will no longer be an option. Finally, victory for the Hansen-Hatch bills could provide smoother sailing for other measures that are aimed at stripping the Federal Government of control over public lands. The most brazen of these are identical bills sponsored by Senator Craig Thomas, Republican of Wyoming, and Mr. Hansen that would transfer to the states every single acre managed anywhere by the B.L.M., some 270 million acres in all. A variant has been offered by Senator Conrad Burns, Republican of Montana, who would establish a commission to identify national forests and other public lands that could be sold or transferred to the states or private interest. The Thomas-Hansen measure proposes a give- away. The Burns bill threatens a national yard sale of the country's natural heirlooms. Mr. Thomas says the lands would be better administered "by the people who truly understand the needs of local citizens. That, of course, means Western state legislatures, which tend to be far more inclined to exploit public resources for commercial gain than even this Congress. These are destructive ideas, and the only sure way to stop them is to send a clear conservationist signal by defeating the Utah lands bill. The main hope is on the House floor, where a growing group of moderate Republicans is having strong second thoughts about legislation that endangers the environment. The preservation of a sound national public lands strategy may lie in their hands. - ------- End of Forwarded Message ------- End of Forwarded Message ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 14:36:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marisa Januzzi Subject: Utah (redefines 'open field') In-Reply-To: <199512060620.XAA13224@web.azstarnet.com> John C., Maria, Ulmer, Tenney, and all: Poetry, pedagogy, performance... why distinguish? snapshots from the same hurricane Thank you, everyone, for your suggestions for the class on food, hunger & writing. The whole idea for a class on hunger came to me not while cruising Dorothy Day or the Pearl Of Great Price but at the Whitney Fluxus show-- You were there, Jordan, and You, and You... anyway I was standing there staring at a wall of empty food containers, the remnants of an entire years american diet assembled by.... WHO was it? I wish I could remember. Does anybody? Since you asked, Tenney, I landed from outta nowhere in a very traditional Italian Catholic family-- where food has pretty much sacramental status (compare with the Mormon view of wine and coffee...) Since Mormons tithe, it seems that a solid percentage of every prosperous household out here goes to the purchase of bologna sandwiches for the hungry. Every day, hundreds of thousands of plastic bologna pucks are delivered to soup kitchens. It's both wonderful and insane at once, all that bologna. The impulse (indeed the imperative) to "love one's neighbor" AND the money are in place out here, and hence the University's offering up to $12,000 to departments willing to integrate service-learning into the curriculum. Steve Tatum has always been supportive of the idea, but now he's chair, and when he saw the figures, he was especially chipper to release me for this (Steve's a great boss) -- and me: I felt the need to decode the message of all that bologna. "then I shrank behind my guide/Because there was no other shelter" two lines in the Inferno (non gli era altra grotta/dante behind virgil behind dante) that are sexy and churchlike enough Ulmer: Holy Anorexia, Ellman, Walker-Bynum, Wuthering Heights, Simone Weil, and Princess Di on 20/20.... your ideas sparked plenty of my own. Maud Ellman's book IS really great. Maria, here I am thinking, "yeah, precisely, the problem in any service learning class is the relation to the [human] subject[s]..." and then I realize that seems to be a problem in poetry and crit as well. I remember the brouhaha in a seminar over Barthes' prose about the "Asian eye" in EMPIRE OF SIGNS... everyone fingered the troubling aspects of that book right away, but no one felt comfortable talking about Barthes's pleasure in HANDLING the human subject. Your reading list is incredible (AUGUSTINE as addict!! did you see Andy DelBanco's piece on the culture of AA in the NEW YORKER last spring?-- 100% applicable). Y'all are timber in the woods --Marisa ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 14:49:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marisa Januzzi Subject: Re: our daily bread/th In-Reply-To: <199512081921.OAA100630@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU> Steven It's so funny; INSEL is so much Bronte and of course I'm writing a chapter on it right now (more or less) and so of course I forgot it re Kay Boyle: "who knew?" that number has a fine drape on the page has anybody read Julia Vinograd? is it true that, whoever she is, she's written *39* books of poetry? ----Marisa ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 17:01:55 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Watts Subject: Blaser conference publications For anyone interested in the Recovery of the Public World Conference in honor of Robin Blaser that took place last June 1st through 4th in Vancouver, two magazines have just been published which contain papers given at the conference as well as work by some of the poets who were at the conference. Sulfur 37 has a talk given by Robin Blaser on the opening night of the conference as well as essays by Jed Rasula and Peter Quartermain, along with a foreword by me; as well, there's new writing by Anne Waldman, Jerome Rothenberg, Michael McClure, and Rachel Blau DuPlessis, all of whom were at the conference. You can get Sulfur from Small Press Distribution or from c/o English Department, Eastern Michigan University, Ypsilanti, MI 48197; phone/fax: 313-483-9787. Single issues are $9, subscriptions are $14/year for two issues As well, West Coast Line Number 17 is just out, containing a talk by Charles Bernstein, also given on the opening evening of the conference, and papers by Robert Hullot-Kentor, Kevin Killian, and Daphne Marlatt, as well as new writing by Rachel Blau DuPlessis, Michele Leggott, Leslie Scalapino, Michael McClure, David Levi Strauss, and Jed Rasula, conference-goers all. West Coast Line can be obtained from SPD, also from 2027 East Academic Annex, Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C. Canada V5A 1S6. Single issue copies are $10; subscriptions are $20/year for three issues. Number 17 is the Fall 1995 issue. Also, I hear from Jenny Penberthy that the Capilano Review big double issue of new writing by many of the conference participants is in the press. When it's out I'll put a notice on the list. Plans are still going forward for a publication of many of the papers presented at the conference; watch for more news on this publication in the spring or fall of 1996. Best to all you geysers, geezers, guysies & geezees, Charles Watts ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 22:44:53 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: our daily bread/th >has anybody read Julia Vinograd? is it true that, whoever whe is, she's >written *39* books of poetry? the latest i have ov hers describers her as "a berkley street poet" and credits her with 28 books... but that was way back in '89... lbd ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 21:11:21 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: purism on the list In-Reply-To: <30C84283.5AF6@panix.com> On Fri, 8 Dec 1995, Jordan Davis wrote: > Gale Nelson wrote: > > I missed the point in the renga where Uncle Toby actually lights his pipe. > > Perhaps Trim was doing this for him, in _his own dream of books._ > _____ > > > Gale, > > Toby lights his cigar in the forthcoming renga, _Zeno > Unbound_. > > Jordan > The burden of proof here is on the locutor. Tom ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 22:10:55 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Steven the Steelworker: Cures for Boredom (fwd) Hi all. I'm forwarding this because I remember us talking about some class issues before and kitsch poetry and now poetry and work, and also just because if some of this isn't performance art... Reminds me of some of the things we do. Gab. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 06:16:42 -1000 From: Steven Rubio To: Multiple recipients of Subject: Steven the Steelworker: Cures for Boredom There were some remarkably creative people at my plant. All of them spent their idle time at work concocting magnificent schemes, pranks, Rube Goldberg contraptions, drawings, just about anything to both kill the boredom and give an outlet for creativity. Sometimes I think that was the real shame of factory work ... not the lost hours doing boring work, not the crushed fingers or lacerated elbows, but the waste of creative talent. Who knows, maybe all of us were never going to "amount to anything" anyway, but sometimes people would create marvels of inanity and you'd realize in a better world, they'd have a better place to demonstrate their abilities. But when I give examples of their work ... well, the examples are stupid, because we were all stoopid from working there, so you would produce creative works that were barely creative. One night a guy balanced a pushbroom on his pinkie ... the next night he balanced it on his nose and called it the "Broom Of Doom" ... the next night he stood on the forks of a lifttruck while the driver raised him high into the air while he balanced the broom on his nose and called it the "Forklift Of Doom" ... soon, all of us were creating our own versions of Doom (mine was called the "Bundle-Turner Of Doom" ... the bundleturner being a machine that took stacks of sheets of steel and flipped them upside down ... I would climb into the machine, someone would hit the "flip" button, and I'd get turned upside down). In retrospect, it's childish, even petty stuff, but it was the best people could do when they were bored stiff and it was noisy and dirty and you knew at least you'd get paid at the end of the week. The Coil Department had two large machines that cut coils into sheets, and sometimes when you were bored you would take your finger and "write" stuff in the dust on the overhead lights ... messages for the workers on the other machine, like "Fuck You Line #2" or some similar bon mot ... then they would climb up to their lights and finger into the dust, "Fuck YOU Line #1." One day the plant manager actually looked up for a change and saw the various fuckyous scrawled into the dust. He immediately had someone wipe the lights clean, and when we arrived at work that evening, we were told in no uncertain terms that there would be no more writing Fuck You in the dirt on the overhead lights! Well, I hated to see my free speech curtailed, so I took this pole, must have been 20-30 feet long ... you used it to flick a breaker switch in an electrical emergency, the breaker box for some reason being located on the ceiling. I took that pole, taped a black marking pen to the end, climbed on my machine, held the pole in the air and used it to write "Line Two Sux" on a beam that held up the roof, about a gazillion feet above us. One more ... one night in our boredom, we took a few hundred paper stickers, rolled them into pointed paper darts, and uses steel pipes to have a blowgun war that lasted most of the evening. We had so much fun we wanted to play again the next night, but we didn't want anyone to find our paper darts and we didn't want to make new ones, so I took them all and stuck them in a cabinet that held counters for marking off how many sheets of steel we had processed, figgering no one ever looked in a place like that. Only the paper darts fucked up the counters, and the next morning, the machine has to stop while they try to figger out why the counters aren't working, and the electrician and the mechanic and the plant manager are all standing around scratching their heads when the electrician decides to open the cabinet, and out falls hundreds of blue paper darts ... Steven http://garnet.berkeley.edu:4251 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 00:13:09 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: our daily bread/th In-Reply-To: <199512081921.OAA100630@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU> Marisa, how about Jessica Hagedorn's _The Dogeaters_? Lots of hunger. Gab. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 05:51:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: The Prisonhouse of Lists Great new books in my mail from P. Phillips and S. Ratcliffe -- not only is the poetry superb, the cover art is suitable, as they say, for framing,,, Thus spake Aldon (pronounced All Done) Haven't seen Steve's book, but I want to second the good words re Pat Phillips' Ruin. Great little book. Very eery cover. Ron ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 08:14:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: Shandy & Diderot LOve it love it love it. And by the way, for others who like 18th Century experiments, anybody noticed the writings of Sir Timothy Dexter? He was an 18th Century profiteer in Massachusetts, who after the revolutioon affected curious dress and recreated a past for himself, but he handed out extraordinary visionary political tracts written in a prose which are like Blake and Joyce. Then too there are William Billings's "Jargon (A Hymn to Dissonance," an extraordinarily beautiful polytonal composition and the circular musical notation (endless of course) from the cover of one of his music pamphlets. We 'Mellicans had a fine "experimental tradition" before we started gumming up the works by over-systematizing it. Very bests Dick Higgins >>Anybody on this list who has NOT read Tristram Shandy should (to use >>Dick Higgins' favorite word) correct that condition post haste. > >& if you enjoyed Shandy you'll love Diderot's "Jacques the Fatalist". As >entertaining as Richardson, as radical, and more readable (if only because C18 >French translated into C20 English is easier to read than C18 English). An anti >-novel before the novel was really established. Didn't Kundera turn this into a >play? > >The Enlightenment gets a bad press from post-structuralist types, but my >understanding of the Enlightenment has always centred more upon Diderot than >sour old Rousseau. Try also "D'Alembert's Dream", a speculative dialogue that >prefigures evolution, neural networks, artificial intelligence and theories of >consciousness. > > > Tom Beard. > > >______________________________________________________________________________ >I/am a background/process, shrunk to an icon. | Tom Beard >I am/a dark place. | beard@met.co.nz >I am less/than the sum of my parts... | Auckland, New Zealand >I am necessary/but not sufficient, | http://www.met.co.nz/ >and I shall teach the stars to fall | nwfc/beard/www/hallway.html Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 06:05:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: our daily bread/th >has anybody read Julia Vinograd? is it true that, whoever she is, she's >written *39* books of poetry? ----Marisa > I'm sure that she has. Julia, aka the "bubble lady" of Berkeley, graduated from UC and went to Iowa City in the 60s, then after a stint in NYC (which I know about only because Paul Carroll mentions it in the bio note to her work in his anthology, The Young American Poets (Big Table Books, 1968, intro by James Dickey)), settled in in Berkeley. She's lived on SSI and been a street poet in the most literal sense for a quarter of century. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 09:39:53 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ray Davis Subject: Re: Shandy & Diderot One of my favorite novels is George Gascoigne's 1573 experiment in New Narrative, "A Discourse of the Adventures Passed by Master F.J.". Gascoigne took the standard Elizabethan editorial apparatus (best known to most readers via Shakespeare's sonnets) and, by making the fictional editor a gossip as well as a thief of intellectual property, wove an acid roman a clef around his occasional poems. In a stunning gambit of self-plagiarism and self-protection, Gascoigne later reprinted the material as a "fable translated out of the Italian riding tales of Bartello," cutting down on the amount of rewriting needed by announcing on the second page, "And bicause I do suppose that Leonora is the same name whiche wee call Elinor in English, and that Francischina also doth import none other than Fraunces, I will so entitle them as to our own countriemen may be moste perspicuous." An inspiration to us all, Ray ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 17:51:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Shandy & Diderot Dear Ray Davis---thanks for the Gascoigne. You claim that it was a stunning gambit of both "self-plagiarism and self-protection" that allowed him to cut down on the amount of rewriting needed to recontext- ualize the poetic material by incorporating them into a more narrative form. Or am I misreading you? Anyway, I don't know if it's actually best to read this simply as a maneouver of laziness, a time-saving device. I guess I'm more interested in the "self-protection" than the "self- plagiarism", for it seems self-protective in terms that it deals with a convention that is still very dominant today--the convention that insofar as an "I" is used in a poem it is often taken as "the poet itself" speaking (unless it's a blatant dramatic monologue spoken by something like hitler on one hand, or a LANGUAGE poem type in which "I' is deprivileged and decentered by a proliferation of shifting pronouns, etc.). Yet what Gascoigne's form allows him is to have his cake and eat it too---to severely question the authenticity of the "I" while at the same time writing as if FROM within it, an achievement as rare today as not---though Bob Perelman, for instance, seems to be moving closer to it---in his pieces in the new raddle moon--that actually sutain dialogue between characters---something the more "purist" l poets (Andrews for instance) I have a hunch would consider heresy (Harryman too). Oops, sorry, I was going to try to keep this "safe" and ostensibly out of the realm of coterie politics.... chris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 17:25:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: Shandy & Diderot > Dear Ray Davis---thanks for the Gascoigne. You claim that it was a > stunning gambit of both "self-plagiarism and self-protection" that > allowed him to cut down on the amount of rewriting needed to recontext- > ualize the poetic material by incorporating them into a more narrative > form. Or am I misreading you? Anyway, I don't know if it's actually best > to read this simply as a maneouver of laziness, a time-saving device. > I guess I'm more interested in the "self-protection" than the "self- > plagiarism", for it seems self-protective in terms that it deals with > a convention that is still very dominant today--the convention that > insofar as an "I" is used in a poem it is often taken as "the poet > itself" speaking (unless it's a blatant dramatic monologue spoken by > something like hitler on one hand, or a LANGUAGE poem type in which > "I' is deprivileged and decentered by a proliferation of shifting > pronouns, etc.). Yet what Gascoigne's form allows him is to have his > cake and eat it too---to severely question the authenticity of the "I" > while at the same time writing as if FROM within it, an achievement > as rare today as not---though Bob Perelman, for instance, seems to > be moving closer to it---in his pieces in the new raddle moon--that > actually sutain dialogue between characters---something the more > "purist" l poets (Andrews for instance) I have a hunch would consider > heresy (Harryman too). Oops, sorry, I was going to try to keep this > "safe" and ostensibly out of the realm of coterie politics.... > chris Want to know another fascinating French piece from times gone by? Try the Anonymous "Com=E9die des proverbes" ca. 1573. I found it by acxcident when I was doiung pattern poetry researchn and ordered a microfilm from the Biblioth=E8que Natiopnale in Paruis. It was on it. My copy is now in the Getty. But Lord Timothy Dexter is my real favorite 18th Century experimewntal prose writer. Quite mad, really. Bests Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 09:48:09 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Subject: A Simple Query In-Reply-To: <01HYM1D2Y4BMHV1O25@cnsvax.albany.edu> Has there ever been a performance (and/or recording) of Zukofsky's "A" 24? If so, what was it like/how did it work? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 20:42:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: A Simple Query >Has there ever been a performance (and/or recording) of Zukofsky's "A" 24? >If so, what was it like/how did it work? I seem to recall that Zukofsky didn't liketo do readings. "What's the matter? Can't they read it for themselves?" seemed to be his attitude. That's what I was told. Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 22:41:06 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: EFFector Online 08.20 * Censorship Protests & CDA Update (fwd) Apologies if you've all seen this already. But, here tis... Gab. ======================================================================== ________________ _______________ _______________ /_______________/\ /_______________\ /\______________\ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/ ||||||||||||||||| / //////////////// C E N S O R E D \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/ ||||| \//// ======================================================================== EFFector Online Volume 08 No. 20 Dec 9, 1995 editors@eff.org A Publication of the Electronic Frontier Foundation ISSN 1062-9424 IN THIS ISSUE: ALERT: Mon. - Internet Censorship Protest Rally in San Francisco ALERT: Tue. - Global Internet Day of Protest Against Censorship Bills Internet Day of Protest: Tuesday December 12, 1995 What You Must Do On Tuesday December 12, 1995 List of Participating Organizations Where Can I Learn More? Update on Internet Censorship Bills 'Let Freedom Ring' - EFF Op-Ed on Internet Censorship [Newsbytes - skipped for this issue again, due to urgency of lead articles] Upcoming Events Quote of the Day What YOU Can Do Administrivia * See http://www.eff.org/Alerts/ or ftp.eff.org, /pub/Alerts/ for more information on current EFF activities and online activism alerts! * ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Mon. - Internet Censorship Protest Rally in San Francisco ------------------------------------------------------------------ Spread the word! *** NETIZENS!! RALLY AGAINST CENSORSHIP *** Amendment I: "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble." **PROTEST ** PROTEST ** PROTEST ** PROTEST ** PROTEST ** PROTEST ** It's like illiterates telling you what to read. On December 6 members of the House Conference Committee on Telecommunications Reform approved a proposal to censor free speech in cyberspace. If the measures are adopted, the Net and online media will become the most heavily regulated media in the United States. They *will not* enjoy the First Amendment freedoms now afforded to print media. Instead, online publishers and users will be held to a vague and patently un-Constitutional "indecency" standard. "Violators" will be subject to fines of up to $100,000 and prison terms of up to five years. In response, ALL members of the Bay Area media, online, Internet, new media, and telecommunications communities are invited to participate in a protest rally to express our outrage that the politicians in Congress (which is not even connected to the Internet!) are attempting to destroy our First Amendment rights in cyberspace, and directly attack our livelihoods. Help stop the demagogs in Washington! There is nothing "decent" about denying free speech to us, our children, and our children's children. Preserve our Constitutional rights! Join us! WHEN: Monday, December 11, 1995 12:00 - 1:00 PM (PST) WHERE: South Park (between 2nd and 3rd, Bryant and Brannon) San Francisco. SPEAKERS: To be announced [including John Gilmore, Jim Warren, Dave Winer, Mike Godwin, Howard Rheingold] BRING: Attention-grabbing posters, signs, and banners that demonstrate your committment to free speech and expression, and your feelings about Congress. FOR UPDATED INFORMATION: http://www.hotwired.com/staff/digaman (Although this event is being organized in the offices of Wired magazine and HotWired, we are *actively* seeking participation and support from all members of the local community. Please forward this message to anyone you think should attend, and to all relevant news groups.) CONTACT: Todd Lappin -- 415-222-6241 -- protest@wired.com ------------------------------ Subject: ALERT Tue. - Global Internet Day of Protest Against Censorship Bills ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- EFF has joined forces with the ACLU, CDT, EPIC, VTW, and other free speech groups to organize a National Day of Protest on Tuesday, December 12, 1995, against Congressional attempts to censor the Internet. We hope you will join us and hundreds of thousands of your fellow net.citizens in this effort. Congress is expected to cast a final vote on this issue next week. The fate of the Internet as a viable medium for free expression, education, and commerce hangs in the balance. Please take a moment to read the attached alert and get ready to flood Capitol Hill with phone calls, faxes, and email messages on Tuesday. Please also forward this alert to all of your wired friends. Together we *can* make a difference. And we cannot afford to fail at this. CAMPAIGN TO STOP THE NET CENSORSHIP LEGISLATION IN CONGRESS On Tuesday December 12, 1995, Join With Hundreds of Thousands Of Your Fellow Internet Users In A NATIONAL INTERNET DAY OF PROTEST PLEASE WIDELY REDISTRIBUTE THIS DOCUMENT WITH THIS BANNER INTACT REDISTRIBUTE ONLY UNTIL December 20, 1995 ________________________________________________________________________ CONTENTS Internet Day of Protest: Tuesday December 12, 1995 What You Must Do On Tuesday December 12, 1995 List of Participating Organizations Where Can I Learn More? ________________________________________________________________________ INTERNET DAY OF PROTEST: TUESDAY DECEMBER 12, 1995 Outrageous proposals to censor the Internet demand that the Internet Community take swift and immediate action. We must stand up and let Congress know that we will not tolerate their attempts to destroy this medium! Please join hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens in a National Day of Protest on Tuesday December 12, 1995. As you know, on Wednesday December 6, 1995, the House Conference Committee on Telecommunications Reform voted to impose far reaching and unconstitutional "indecency" restrictions on the Internet and other interactive media, including large commercial online services (such as America Online, Compuserve, and Prodigy) and smaller Internet Service Providers such as Panix, the Well, Echo, and Mindvox. These restrictions threaten the very existence of the Internet and interactive media as a viable medium for free expression, education, commerce. If enacted, the Internet as we know it will never be the same. Libraries will not be able to put any books online that might offend a child somewhere. No "Catcher in the Rye" or "Ulysses" on the net. Internet Service Providers could face criminal penalties for allowing children to subscribe to their Internet Services, forcing many small companies to simply refuse to sell their services to anyone under 18. Worst of all, everything you say and publish on the net will have to be "dumbed down" to that which is acceptable to a child. As Internet users, we simply must not allow this assault against the Internet and our most basic freedoms to go unchallenged. On Tuesday December 12, the organizations below are urging you to join us in a NATIONAL DAY OF PROTEST. The goal is to flood key members of the House and Senate with phone calls, faxes and email with the message that the Internet community WILL NOT TOLERATE Congressional attempts to destroy the Internet, limit our freedoms and trample on our rights. Below are the phone, fax, and email address of several key members of Congress on this issue and instructions on what you can do to join the National Day of Protest to save the Net. ______________________________________________________________________ WHAT YOU MUST DO ON TUESDAY DECEMBER 12, 1995 1. Throughout the day Tuesday December 12, please contact as many members of Congress on the list below as you can. If you are only able to make one call, contact House Speaker Newt Gingrich. Finally, if the Senator or Representative from your state is on the list below, be sure to contact him or her also. 2. Urge each Member of Congress to "stop the madness". Tell them that they are about to pass legislation that will destroy the Internet as an educational and commercial medium. If you are at a loss for words, try the following sample communique: Sample phone call: Both the House and Senate bills designed to protect children from objectionable material on the Internet will actually destroy the Internet as an medium for education, commerce, and political discourse. There are other, less restrictive ways to address this issue. I urge you to oppose both measures being proposed in the conference committee. This is an important election issue to me. Sample letter (fax or email): The Senate conferees are considering ways to protect children from inappropriate material on the Internet. A vote for either the House or Senate proposals will result in the destruction of the Internet as a viable medium for free expression, education, commerce. Libraries will not be able to put their entire book collections online. Everyday people like me will risk massive fines and prison sentences for public discussions someone s somewhere might consider "indecent". There are other, less restrictive ways to protect children from objectionable material online. This is an important election issue to me. 3. If you're in San Francisco, or near enough to get there, go to the Rally Against Censorship from Ground Zero of the Digital Revolution: WHEN: Monday, December 11, 1995 12:00 - 1:00 PM WHERE: South Park (between 2nd and 3rd, Bryant and Brannon) San Francisco. SPEAKERS: To be announced BRING: Attention-grabbing posters, signs, and banners that demonstrate your committment to free speech and expression, and your feelings about Congress. FOR UPDATED INFORMATION (including rain info): http://www.hotwired.com/staff/digaman/ ### THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT ### 4. Mail a note to protest@vtw.org to let us know you did your part. Although you will not receive a reply due to the number of anticipated responses, we'll be counting up the number of people that participated in the day of protest. P ST Name and Address Phone Fax = == ======================== ============== ============== R AK Stevens, Ted 1-202-224-3004 1-202-224-1044 R AZ McCain, John 1-202-224-2235 1-602-952-8702 senator_mccain@mccain.senate.gov D HI Inouye, Daniel K. 1-202-224-3934 1-202-224-6747 R KS Dole, Robert 1-202-224-6521 1-202-228-1245 D KY Ford, Wendell H. 1-202-224-4343 1-202-224-0046 wendell_ford@ford.senate.gov R MS Lott, Trent 1-202-224-6253 1-202-224-2262 R MT Burns, Conrad R. 1-202-224-2644 1-202-224-8594 conrad_burns@burns.senate.gov D NE Exon, J. J. 1-202-224-4224 1-202-224-5213 D SC Hollings, Ernest F. 1-202-224-6121 1-202-224-4293 senator@hollings.senate.gov R SD Pressler, Larry 1-202-224-5842 1-202-224-1259 larry_pressler@pressler.senate.gov R WA Gorton, Slade 1-202-224-3441 1-202-224-9393 senator_gorton@gorton.senate.gov D WV Rockefeller, John D. 1-202-224-6472 n.a. senator@rockefeller.senate.gov Dist ST Name, Address, and Party Phone Fax ==== == ======================== ============== ============== 6 GA Gingrich, Newt (R) 1-202-225-4501 1-202-225-4656 2428 RHOB georgia6@hr.house.gov 14 MI Conyers Jr., John (D) 1-202-225-5126 1-202-225-0072 2426 RHOB jconyers@hr.house.gov 1 CO Schroeder, Patricia (D) 1-202-225-4431 1-202-225-5842 2307 RHOB 18 TX Jackson-Lee, Sheila (D) 1-202-225-3816 1-202-225-3317 1520 LHOB 6 TN Gordon, Bart (D) 1-202-225-4231 1-202-225-6887 2201 RHOB 4. Forward this alert to all of your wired friends. ________________________________________________________________________ WHERE CAN I LEARN MORE? At this moment, there are several organizations with WWW sites that now have, or will have, information about the net censorship legislation and the National Day Of Protest: American Civil Liberties Union (ftp://ftp.aclu.org/aclu/) Center for Democracy and Technology (http://www.cdt.org/) Electronic Frontier Foundation (http://www.eff.org/) Electronic Privacy Information Center (http://www.epic.org/) Wired Magazine (http://www.hotwired.com/special/indecent/) Voters Telecommunications Watch (http://www.vtw.org/) ________________________________________________________________________ LIST OF PARTICIPATING ORGANIZATIONS In order to use the net more effectively, several organizations have joined forces on a single Congressional net campaign to stop the Communications Decency Act. American Civil Liberties Union * American Communication Association * American Council for the Arts * Arts & Technology Society * Association of Alternative Newsweeklies * biancaTroll productions * Boston Coalition for Freedom of Expression * Californians Against Censorship Together * Center For Democracy And Technology * Centre for Democratic Communications * Center for Public Representation * Citizen's Voice - New Zealand * Cloud 9 Internet *Computer Communicators Association * Computel Network Services * Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility * Cross Connection * Cyber-Rights Campaign * CyberQueer Lounge * Dorsai Embassy * Dutch Digital Citizens' Movement * ECHO Communications Group, Inc. * Electronic Frontier Canada * Electronic Frontier Foundation * Electronic Frontier Foundation - Austin * Electronic Frontiers Australia * Electronic Frontiers Houston * Electronic Frontiers New Hampshire * Electronic Privacy Information Center * Feminists For Free Expression * First Amendment Teach-In * Florida Coalition Against Censorship * FranceCom, Inc. Web Advertising Services * Friendly Anti-Censorship Taskforce for Students * Hands Off! The Net * Inland Book Company * Inner Circle Technologies, Inc. * Inst. for Global Communications * Internet On-Ramp, Inc. * Internet Users Consortium * Joint Artists' and Music Promotions Political Action Committee * The Libertarian Party * Marijuana Policy Project * Metropolitan Data Networks Ltd. * MindVox * MN Grassroots Party * National Bicycle Greenway * National Campaign for Freedom of Expression * National Coalition Against Censorship * National Gay and Lesbian Task Force * National Public Telecomputing Network * National Writers Union * Oregon Coast RISC * Panix Public Access Internet * People for the American Way * Republican Liberty Caucus * Rock Out Censorship * Society for Electronic Access * The Thing International BBS Network * The WELL * Voters Telecommunications Watch (Note: All 'Electronic Frontier' organizations are independent entities, not EFF chapters or divisions.) ________________________________________________________________________ End Alert [Intro text adapted from CDT & VTW copies of the alert.] ------------------------------ Subject: Update on Internet Censorship Bills -------------------------------------------- The US House of Representatives members of the join conference committee working on the telecom bill passed, Dec. 5, a gutted version of the White amendment, that would criminalize "indecent" material online. The fight now moves to the Senate side of that committee, which is dominated by sponsors of unconstitutional censorship legislation. Needless to say, they are not expected to uphold the First Amendement. The larger Congress, however, may be another story. As public rallies and online protests gear up, civil liberties organizations including EFF are urging YOU to call your Senators and Representatives, as well as Dole and Gingrich as Congressional leaders, to express your opinions on this vital issue. According to an e-press release from _American_Reporter_, this online-only daily newspaper "threatened on Thursday to deliberately defy the language of [the] U.S. House cyberporn proposal if it becomes law, calling the measure a clear violation of the First Amendment." Other individuals and organizations - including a judge - have similarly promised civil disobedience, with people almost literally lining up to challenge the bill in court should it pass. ACLU, EFF, and the National Writers Union, among others, have indicated interest in mounting legal challenges to any such censorship law. The _Boston_Globe_ reports that at least one legislator, Rep. Ed Markey (D-MA) is skeptical about the proposed new law. "Markey said there's a good chance Congress won't finish work on the overall telecommunications bill this year. Even if the bill is completed, a constitional challenge to the law is very likely. Besides, the law won't stop people outside the United States from posting pornography on the Internet." (from "Markey Says Parents Key to Cyberporn Fight", Hiawatha Bray, _Boston_Globe_, Dec. 9). Elizabeth Corcoran & Mike Mills report in the _Washington_Post_ that Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich (R-GA) intends to "narrow the scope" of the legislation, working with Rep. Rick White (R-WA), who's own proposal was gutted in the conference committee. The _Post_ suggests that they will try to push the legislation back towards a "harmful to minors" (obscenity) standard, rather than the vague indecency standard expected to be reported out of the conf. committee early next week. Gingrich's plan would essentially force to be subject to at least some of the same tests as obscenity - material with cultural, literary or scientific value would be exempted. The next (and possibly last, for this issue) meeting of the conferees on the telecom bill has been set for 2pm EST, Tue., Dec. 12. The telecom bill conference report (that is, the final version of the bill) is sheduled for a vote the week of Dec. 11. ------------------------------ Subject: 'Let Freedom Ring' - EFF Op-Ed on Internet Censorship -------------------------------------------------------------- [This is the longer original version of an opinion-editorial piece published Dec. 9, in the _New_York_Times_.] Let Freedom Ring Freedom of speech on the Internet, the worldwide network of computers, is under attack from a variety of sources, both public and private. Three preliminary decisions handed down over the past couple of weeks against the Church of Scientology and its related Religious Technology Center and Bridge Publications, Inc., offer a glimpse into how complicated these issues can become online. The first decision, filed just before Thanksgiving by Judge Ronald Whyte of the northern California federal district court, probably had the most far-reaching implications for the future of electronic communications. Judge Whyte held that Internet service providers, those important gateways to the information superhighway, cannot be held liable for copyright infringement when they have no knowledge of the content of their users' messages. "Where a BBS operator cannot reasonably verify a claim of infringement, either because of a possible fair use defense, the lack of copyrighted notices on the copies, or the copyright holder's failure to provide the necessary documentation to show that there is a likely infringement, the operator's lack of knowledge will be found reasonable and there will be no liability for contributory infringement for allowing the continued distribution of the works on its system." This is important, because system providers are similar to the telephone company when it comes to electronic communications-- they provide the conduit. If they can be held liable for the content of messages, they are more likely to monitor those messages and censor any that contain anything that might get them in trouble. Just as we don't want Ma Bell censoring our voice communications, we should be very troubled by any copyright law interpretation that would assign liability to those who provide Internet service. The second and third decisions were filed last week by Judge Leonie M. Brinkema of the federal district court for northern Virginia. In those cases, Judge Brinkema admonished the Church of Scientology for using lawsuits to silence its online critics. In dismissing the Washington Post and two of its reporters from the suit and holding the Church of Scientology responsible for the Post's attorneys' fees, Judge Brinkema found, "Although the RTC brought the complaint under traditional secular concepts of copyright and trade secret law, it has become clear that a much broader motivation prevailed--the stifling of criticism and dissent of the religious practices of Scientology and the destruction of its opponents." The judge called this motivation "reprehensible." While the results of these preliminary decisions are encouraging, they are but small battles in a war that is being waged not only in our courtrooms but in Congress and state legislatures, as well. And the war is hardly over. From the unconstitutional "online decency" legislation included in the telecommunications reform bill to the FBI's digital telephony wiretapping law, censoring the Internet seems to be the battle cry of the uninformed. But there are serious ramifications to barreling ahead without fully considering the First Amendment--ramifications that will be with us for a long time to come. As we chip away at our own free speech rights, we diminish ourselves. The most frightening aspect is that these decisions regarding provider liability and protection of the free speech rights of those who dare to disagree are being made before most of us realize that these precedents are being codified into law. These early battles are important, and the online world breathed a collective sigh of relief over Judge Whyte's and Judge Brinkema's decisions. But there are more battles to be fought before we know that the First Amendment will make the transition to online communications. Shari Steele, Staff Counsel The Electronic Frontier Foundation 1550 Bryant St., Suite 725 San Francisco CA 94103 USA +1 415 436 9333 (voice) +1 415 436 9993 (fax) Internet: ask@eff.org For the text of these court decisions and other related documents, see the relevant section of the Internet World Wide Web site of the Electronic Frontier Foundation at: http://www.eff.org/pub/Censorship/Scientology_cases/ The Electronic Frontier Foundation is a nonprofit public-interest civil liberties organization devoted to protecting privacy and free speech, and promoting responsibility, online. [The text of the rather different version that was published offline is available at: http://www.eff.org/pub/Alerts/ssteele_eff_nyt_120995_cos.article on our WWW site.] ------------------------------ Subject: Upcoming events ------------------------ This schedule lists events that are directly EFF-related. A much more detailed calendar of events likely to be of interest to our members and supporters is maintained at: ftp: ftp.eff.org, /pub/EFF/calendar.eff gopher: gopher.eff.org, 1/EFF, calendar.eff http://www.eff.org/pub/EFF/calendar.eff Jan. 17- 18 * Innovation Now; Oregon Convention Center, Portland Oregon. Sponsored by American Electronics Association's Oregon Council, et al. Speakers include EFF chair of the board Esther Dyson. URL: http://www.innovationnow.org/ ------------------------------ Subject: Quote of the Day ------------------------- "It is not the function of our Government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the Government from falling into error." - Robert H. Jackson (1892-1954), U.S. Judge Find yourself wondering if your privacy and freedom of speech are safe when bills to censor the Internet are swimming about in a sea of of surveillance legislation and anti-terrorism hysteria? Worried that in the rush to make us secure from ourselves that our government representatives may deprive us of our essential civil liberties? Concerned that legislative efforts nominally to "protect children" will actually censor all communications down to only content suitable for the playground? Alarmed by commercial and religious organizations abusing intellectual property law to stifle satire, dissent and criticism? Join EFF! Even if you don't live in the U.S., the anti-Internet hysteria will soon be visiting a legislative body near you. If it hasn't already. ------------------------------ Subject: What YOU Can Do ------------------------ * The Communications Decency Act & Other Censorship Legislation The Communications Decency Act and similar legislation pose serious threats to freedom of expression online, and to the livelihoods of system operators. The legislation also undermines several crucial privacy protections. Business/industry persons concerned should alert their corporate govt. affairs office and/or legal counsel. Everyone should write to their own Representatives and Senators, and especially the conference committee members, asking them to oppose Internet censorship legislation, and write to the conference committee members to support the reasonable approaches of Leahy, Klink, Cox and Wyden, and to oppose the unconstitutional proposals of Exon, Gorton and others. Urge them to ensure that system operators and others are not held liable for crimes they did not commit, that the FCC is barred from regulating the Internet, and that *if* your Congressperson is hell-bent on passing some restriction, any restriction, on the Net, that he or she vote to pass only a "harmful to minors" or "obscenity" statute that is clear and constitutional, and condemn any unconstitutional national "indecency" standard. You may also wish to tell such legislators that if they vote for any Internet censorship leglslation, you'll vote against them in the next election. See the first three articles in this newsletter for more detailed info. For more information on what you can do to help stop this and other dangerous legislation, see: ftp.eff.org, /pub/Alerts/ gopher.eff.org, 1/Alerts http://www.eff.org/pub/Alerts/ If you do not have full internet access, send your request for information to ask@eff.org. * Digital Telephony/Comms. Assistance to Law Enforcement Act The FBI is now seeking both funding for the DT/CALEA wiretapping provisions, and preparing to require that staggering numbers of citizens be simultaneously wiretappable. To oppose the funding, write to your own Senators and Representatives urging them to vote against any appropriations for wiretapping. To oppose the FBI's wiretapping capacity demands, see the FBI Federal Register notice at the end of the second article in this newsletter, which contains instructions on how to submit formal comments on the ludicrous and dangerous proposal. * Anti-Terrorism Bills Numerous bills threatening your privacy and free speech have been introduced this year. None of them are close to passage at this very moment, but this status may change. Urge your Congresspersons to oppose these unconstitutional and Big-Brotherish bills. * The Anti-Electronic Racketeering Act This bill is unlikely to pass in any form, being very poorly drafted, and without much support. However, the CDA is just as bad and passed with flying colors [the jolly roger?] in the Senate. It's better to be safe than sorry. If you have a few moments to spare, writing to, faxing, or calling your Congresspersons to urge opposition to this bill is a good idea. If you only have time to do limited activism, please concentrate on the Internet censorship legislation instead. That legislation is far more imminent that the AERA. * Medical Privacy legislation Several bills relating to medical privacy issues are floating in Congress right now. Urge your legislators to support only proposals that *truly* enhance the medical privacy of citizens. More information on this legislation will be available at http://www.eff.org/pub/Privacy/Medical/ soon. Bug mech@eff.org to make it appear there faster. :) * Find Out Who Your Congresspersons Are Writing letters to, faxing, and phoning your representatives in Congress is one very important strategy of activism, and an essential way of making sure YOUR voice is heard on vital issues. EFF has lists of the Senate and House with contact information, as well as lists of Congressional committees. (A House list is included in this issue of EFFector). These lists are available at: ftp.eff.org, /pub/Activism/Congress_cmtes/ gopher.eff.org, 1/EFF/Issues/Activism/Congress_cmtes http://www.eff.org/pub/Activism/Congress_cmtes/ The full Senate and House lists are senate.list and hr.list, respectively. Those not in the U.S. should seek out similar information about their own legislative bodies. EFF will be happy to archive any such information provided. If you are having difficulty determining who your Representatives are, try contacting your local League of Women Voters, who maintain a great deal of legislative information, or consult the free ZIPPER service that matches Zip Codes to Congressional districts with about 85% accuracy at: http://www.stardot.com/~lukeseem/zip.html * Join EFF! You *know* privacy, freedom of speech and ability to make your voice heard in government are important. You have probably participated in our online campaigns and forums. Have you become a member of EFF yet? The best way to protect your online rights is to be fully informed and to make your opinions heard. EFF members are informed and are making a difference. Join EFF today! For EFF membership info, send queries to membership@eff.org, or send any message to info@eff.org for basic EFF info, and a membership form. ------------------------------ Administrivia ============= EFFector Online is published by: The Electronic Frontier Foundation 1550 Bryant St., Suite 725 San Francisco CA 94103 USA +1 415 436 9333 (voice) +1 415 436 9993 (fax) Membership & donations: membership@eff.org Legal services: ssteele@eff.org General EFF, legal, policy or online resources queries: ask@eff.org Editor: Stanton McCandlish, Online Services Mgr./Activist/Archivist (mech@eff.org) This newsletter is printed on 100% recycled electrons. Reproduction of this publication in electronic media is encouraged. Signed articles do not necessarily represent the views of EFF. To reproduce signed articles individually, please contact the authors for their express permission. Press releases and EFF announcements may be reproduced individ- ually at will. To subscribe to EFFector via email, send message body of "subscribe effector-online" (without the "quotes") to listserv@eff.org, which will add you to a subscription list for EFFector. Back issues are available at: ftp.eff.org, /pub/EFF/Newsletters/EFFector/ gopher.eff.org, 1/EFF/Newsletters/EFFector http://www.eff.org/pub/EFF/Newsletters/EFFector/ To get the latest issue, send any message to effector-reflector@eff.org (or er@eff.org), and it will be mailed to you automagically. You can also get the file "current" from the EFFector directory at the above sites at any time for a copy of the current issue. HTML editions available at: http://www.eff.org/pub/EFF/Newsletters/EFFector/HTML/ at EFFweb. HTML editions of the current issue sometimes take a day or longer to prepare after issue of the ASCII text version. ------------------------------ End of EFFector Online v08 #20 Digest ************************************* $$ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 10:40:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Re: A Simple Query Schuchat, there have been a few performances, on the west coast usa, as far as i know. The L-poets robinson, benson, harryman, watten, perelman are recorded on tape at the poetry center at SF state. Laura Moriaty knows how to process your order. You might also contact brad westbrook at the UC san dieglo archive for new poetry. he may have a tape as well. List discussed this a while back if you want to peruse the EPC archives. Bill Luoma ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 14:51:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Diane Marie Ward Subject: Re: our daily bread/th Comments: To: Robert Drake In-Reply-To: <199512090344.WAA10528@kanga.INS.CWRU.Edu> On Fri, 8 Dec 1995, Robert Drake wrote: > >has anybody read Julia Vinograd? is it true that, whoever whe is, she's > >written *39* books of poetry? > > the latest i have ov hers describers her as "a berkley street poet" > and credits her with 28 books... but that was way back in '89... > > lbd > Vinograd's is prolific. I have a semi recent list of her works hiding somewhere in my desk - If you like, I'll backchannel. Anyone on the list at all familiar with Sekou Sundiata's work? He was featured on the PBS Bill Moyer's Language of Life series but I can't seem to find anything published by him. thanks, Diane Ward University of Buffalo ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 12:20:30 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Zukovsky's 24 In-Reply-To: <199512100659.BAA29020@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> yes, it has been performed -- don't have all details at my fingertips, but if you look back through the archive of this list you'll find several posts earlier this year recounting the S.F. Bay area performance -- Remind posters (or postits) also that, despite his resistance to readings, Zukofsky may be heard on a tape cassete in the treaury of American Jewish poets (not exact title) series, also mentioned in earlier posts -- Iqnuiry -- Ed Roberson is supposed to have a book from Iowa now -- has anybody actually seen this book? haven't spotted it in California, nor have I seen an Iowa ad for it -- "Inquiry" an "Iqnuiry" is a place where Iq droppings are retrieved for use as fertilizer. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 16:34:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: Roberson Al, _Voices Cast Out to Talk Us In_ by Ed Roberson is indeed out from U. Iowa. $10.95 pb. & recommended. Got a review copy back in the summer & didn't review it so I'll say here that this is a formally smart & well-built perhaps Olsonian lyric collection. It makes you read it out loud. Hope you get to hear it. Rod ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 17:10:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: our daily bread/th sekou sundiata teaches, i think, at ccny or nyu. he's got some stuff in Aloud: Voices from the NuYorican Poets' Cafe, ed. Algarin and Holman.--md ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 21:12:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kenneth Sherwood Subject: EPCLive Comments: cc: core-l I hope you'll all check out EPCLive monday night at 6:30pm EST for an online fest with Jerome Rothenberg and Pierre Joris on their new _Poems for the Millennium: The University of California Book of Modern and Postmodern Poetry_ Information on connecting (and the Introduction and Table of Contents) is available at http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/epclive ks ____________________________________________________________________________ Kenneth Sherwood | Dept English v001pxfu@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu | 618 Clemens Hall sherwood@acsu.buffalo.edu | SUNY @ Buffalo |_______Buffalo, NY 14214___________ RIF/T mail: e-poetry@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu Electronic Poetry Center (Web address): http://writing.upenn.edu/epc _____________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 23:10:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: hearsay Chris, Could we have those trees cleared out of the way? And the houses, volcanoes, empires? The natural panorama is false, the shadows it casts are so many useless platitudes. Everything is suspect. Even clouds of the same sky are the same. Close the door is voluntary death. There is one color, not any. Prove to me now that you have finally undermined your heroes. In fits of distractions the walls cover themselves with portraits. Types are not men. Admit that your studies are over. Limit yourself to your memoirs. Identity is only natural. Now become the person in your life. Start writing autobiography. ******* Ever since this "Mode Z" came out via Barrett Watten, i've identified strongly with the imperatives of this pome, and clearly it's one of the best pomes ever written. i've taken it to heart, too, viz a process of formal transference. E.G., when I first read this, I abandoned my heroes and fell in love with Barrett Watten's superman good looks. indeed, i've written autobiography in attempts to find my self, i've finally come to believe that identity is only natural, and, in this pome's world, as in my own, everything happens as if by marketing. I.E., no one puts portraits on the walls, they just get there. hello!!! Is mr wall there? no. Is mrs wall there? no. Is any wall there? no. Then watten blazes is holding up your house? Bill Luoma ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 10:35:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sun & Moon Press % Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: MLA Party Poetics List Subscribers are invited to Sun & Moon Press' MLA party on Wednesday, December 27, 1995 from 6pm through the evening & into the night at the Hyatt Regency Chicago in the suite of Sun & Moon's publisher, Douglas Messerli. Visit Sun & Moon Press at Consortium's booth at the book exhibition. ****** Douglas Messerli and Charles Bernstein will be reading on Friday, Dec. 29 at 6pm at Site Cafe/Bookstore of the Museum of Contemporary Arts 237 East Ontario, near the convention hotels. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 10:37:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ULMER SPRING Subject: Re: hearsay and the more identity one finds the harder it is to find it -spring ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 10:54:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: hearsay well, bill, where I grew up and/or out in upper cesspool, pa. there were many vicious dogs 9some named death and some named desire) who bade me play with bullies a game called "run away and hide" because I KNEW about the BOMB really young, man, and from thence embarked on such songs of insolance the dogs prick up their ears at my arrival while merer mortals--including myself--are, as john lennon said, thick and ordinary. then i made a lightning trip to vienna. yours in fingers, chris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 11:22:59 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "H. T. KIRBY-SMITH" Organization: University of NC at Greensboro Subject: If you don't like Seamus Heaney Something called SNAKESKIN announces that in its February edition there will be something called "Why We Don't Like Seamus Heaney." To judge from the poems published in the first SNAKESIN, the reasons given for not liking Seamus Heaney are probably going to be exactly the opposite of reasons that might be given here. Irish Nobel prize winners don't get off easy. Yvor Winters used to tell his classes in a menacingly even tone of voice, "Now when I say that Yeats is a third-rate poet, you shouldn't get angry. It's just a fact." But Ferlinghetti seems to have liked Yeats, to judge from what he says about him in some early poems. Maybe you have to have dug potatoes to like Heaney. Whereas to like Yeats you have to have believed in fairies at some point. The Website for SNAKESKIN is http://www.nildram.co.uk/~simmers Tom Kirby-Smith ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 14:37:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Scroggins Subject: Re: Zukovsky's 24 In-Reply-To: Aldon et cie: Bob Perleman played piano on a bay area performance; he knows more about it; there's also a tape of a canadian performance floating around. Yes, the Robertson's out--at least they have it at Chapter's in DC (get on the stick, Rod!). Mark Scroggins On Sun, 10 Dec 1995, Aldon L. Nielsen wrote: > yes, it has been performed -- don't have all details at my fingertips, > but if you look back through the archive of this list you'll find several > posts earlier this year recounting the S.F. Bay area performance -- > > Remind posters (or postits) also that, despite his resistance to > readings, Zukofsky may be heard on a tape cassete in the treaury of > American Jewish poets (not exact title) series, also mentioned in earlier > posts -- > Iqnuiry -- Ed Roberson is supposed to have a book from Iowa now -- has > anybody actually seen this book? haven't spotted it in California, nor > have I seen an Iowa ad for it -- > > "Inquiry" an "Iqnuiry" is a place where Iq droppings are retrieved for > use as fertilizer. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 15:10:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Zukovsky's 24 Mark Scroggins---Are you referring to a new book by LISA ROBERTSON when you say the New Robertson's out? Hopefully not Pat? (though sometimes Lisa R. does have a PAT tone). Anyway, let me know. I like to keep up with her work. Thanks, chris s. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 18:20:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Zukovsky's 24 roberson's book is indeed available, published many weeks ago in fact, and is as important as anything we've had in recent memory. the title is _voices cast out to talk us in_, and perhaps the best, or quickest, thing at this point is to go directly to iowa's "customer service" and circumvent the bookstores and the wait that would entail. the isbn is 0-87745-510-4. there's no price on my copy; i don't know why iowa's keeping that a secret. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 20:24:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: anachronism Well, maybe I shouldn't bring this up (but the list HAS been quiet lately) Afterall, I feel quite TOPHEAVY when it comes to argumentative tonality lately. But it's like a bug I have to work out before I can appreciate ,say, the latest ANTENYM I got---For instance, I feel about 180 degrees from the kind of space Mary Carol Randall's poem "absence" evokes there-- I DON'T CARE HOW BITTER THE GRAPEFRUIT IS, I WANT IT..... Anyway, I finally read that controversy-starting Mark Wallace Poetics Brief piece. Thanks Jeff for sending. Thanks Mark for mentioning my name (etc.) But I do have a question for you Mark (are you there?), or for anyone else who might agree with the assertion Mark makes. At one point, you call certain poets (all circa our age) "anachronistic". On level, it doesn't matter WHICH poets you are calling so. In fact, Mark I dub YOU anachronistic! Haven't you heard, the word "anachronistic" went out with Jameson... Who's to say What's of today But those with sway? And what is sway If it doesn't say What's of today? Just curious. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 20:02:39 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Curt Anderson Subject: Re: If you don't like Seamus Heaney At 11:22 AM 12/11/95 EST, H. T. KIRBY-SMITH wrote: >>Irish Nobel prize winners don't get off easy. Yvor Winters used to >tell his classes in a menacingly even tone of voice, "Now when I say >that Yeats is a third-rate poet, you shouldn't get angry. It's just a >fact." But Ferlinghetti seems to have liked Yeats, to judge from >what he says about him in some early poems. Maybe you have to have >dug potatoes to like Heaney. Whereas to like Yeats you have to have >believed in fairies at some point. > Say, what you got against fairies? I would have to argue that Winters and Ferlinghetti are easily dispatched as third rate poets, whereas Yeats, especially the later poetry, ranks as some of the best poetry in the language. Don't know about Heaney, other than info from my sister, who had him at Berkeley, and reports that he spoke passionately about taking pleasure in the aroma of his own flatulence. Curt Anderson Cander@mtn.org P.O. Box 1840 St. Paul, MN 55101 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 19:14:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ray Davis Subject: Re: Shandy & Diderot Chris, the self-protecting plagiarism I referred to was Gascoigne's second edition. The first "adventures of Master F.J." was fake biography (or, more accurately, fake biographical annotations a la _Pale Fire_), and it was on the scandalous side: the poet-hero was a sleaze, and the object of his hypocritical lyrics the bored and not particularly literate wife of the poet's generous host. Because, I presume, of that scandal, when Gascoigne next published the story-with-poems, it was absurdly claimed to be a translation of an Italian story, although the Italianized names disappear after the first page. I agree that one of the wonderful things about the book is Gascoigne's dismissal of the idea of "lyric outpouring": poems serve a social purpose via their very denial of ulterior motives. Which is not to say that Gascoigne's poetry doesn't express passion, but to say that passions serve social purposes as well. Ray ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 07:14:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Followup on Nigeria In-Reply-To: from "Ray Davis" at Dec 11, 95 07:14:37 pm This from IFEX, via PEN, of some interest as followup on the NIgerian hangings: NIGERIA: INTERNATIONAL MEDIA FAULTED FOR APATHY TO REPRESSION The international media should have done more to publicize the unfair detention and trial of Nigerian writer Ken Saro-Wiwa and the other eight Ogoni activists who were executed last month, said journalists at a Freedom Forum discussion on 20 November. The discussion, which took place in Arlington, Virginia, United States, was entitled "Nigeria After Ken Saro-Wiwa: Media Under Siege". Participants were asked, "Could the international media have done anything differently, anything better that might have prevented these executions from taking place?" Josh Arinze of "Tell" magazine in Lagos, Nigeria answered, "With the present bunch that is ruling Nigeria, it is really very hard to hope that diplomacy can do much.... The international media could have done more. There was a remarkable outcry and very high publicity after the executions. It would have been much better if it had been before the executions.... Ken was arrested in May 1994." Kenneth Best, a Liberian editor teaching at American University in Washington, said, "I definitely believe we could have hollered a bit more in the media, especially the media that matters, the Western media.... [This] reflects one of the problems that I have been dealing with since I came to the country about a year and a half ago -- the absence of serious coverage in the American media of Africa." Peter Fabricus, the Washington correspondent for Independent Newspapers of South Africa agreed, saying, "[T]he media does not cover Africa enough, but it is not going to change. The fact is the media has to be led by the market, and the market does not show that much interest.... The only time you are going to get a media interest in Africa is when Africans themselves begin to take responsibility for their problems, which I think is what [South African President Nelson] Mandela is doing." Phil Robbins of the U.S. military magazine "Stars and Stripes" said, "I think the situation is a demonstration of the limits of journalism and what we can expect of journalism. I think everybody believes that democracy can't function without a free press, but it doesn't apply to dictatorships and authoritarian situations.... International coverage... is not going to save the world from the... Sani Abachas of the world.... Diplomacy is the only thing [that can help]... and obviously the more we can expose things, the better chance diplomacy has to work." Paul Glickman of National Public Radio (NPR) said, "We don't have anyone based in Nigeria. It seems not to be a place where the Western press bases its reporters because it is so difficult to work there." Glickman said some NPR reporters had applied for journalist visas for Nigeria, "but we are not exactly holding our breath." He said NPR had been covering Saro-Wiwa since before his arrest. ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Poems are sketches for existence." Dept. of English | --Paul Celan SUNY Albany | Albany NY 12222 | "Revisionist plots tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | are everywhere and our pronouns haven't yet email: | drawn up plans for the first coup." joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --J.H. Prynne ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 07:54:32 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: Zukovsky's 24 >perhaps the best, or quickest, thing at this >point is to go directly to iowa's "customer service" and circumvent the >bookstores and the wait that would entail. && as had been mentioned here recently, another best thing to do would be to order thru yr local independant bookstore, helping to keep such in business. as often as not faster than direct ordering; also lets local bookbuyers know that there _is_ a market for poetry... lbd ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 08:41:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Passion and the social FYI "A Mr. John Keats, a young man who had left a decent calling for the melancholy trade of Cockney-poetry, has lately died of a consumption, after having written two or three little books of verses, much neglected by the public . . . he wrote _indecently_, probably in the indulgence of his social propensities." --Blackwood's Magazine, 1821 That last line, "the idulgence of his social propensities" has to be a classical critical line. What's the current equivalent? Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 09:37:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Scroggins Subject: Re: Zukovsky's 24 In-Reply-To: <01HYOOQGL6Z68Y53HP@cnsvax.albany.edu> Chris S.-- nope, unfortunately (fortunately?) I was replying to Aldon's query re the new Ed Roberson--slip o' the digit. Will you be my copyeditor? (just typed coyeditor--mebbe that one was freudian...) Mark S On Mon, 11 Dec 1995, Chris Stroffolino wrote: > Mark Scroggins---Are you referring to a new book by LISA ROBERTSON > when you say the New Robertson's out? Hopefully not Pat? > (though sometimes Lisa R. does have a PAT tone). > Anyway, let me know. I like to keep up with her work. Thanks, chris s. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 14:50:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Larry Price Subject: Anachronism Chris: I'd like to offer a reading of "anachronism." Actually, my take would be that the ANACHRONE is about as likely as the ANAMORPH (not at all). But I take my clue by returning to the morph, margin/center. Although I'll avoid the hedge implicit in the term "problematic," the fact is that in 9 out of 10 times the term "center" is used, it probably doesn't exist. However, this only means that the "margin" "center" differentially signifies must have a far more complex relation to group formation than a simple geometric model would allow. And it's that fact of the possibility of brownian motion in there that I think needs to be addressed, as well as the converse aggregate narratives (only one among them being that of the center) that work as the ideological. In fact with regard to time (baldly) or history (pathetically) there seems every bit as much tendency to "vibrate." However, there is also another morph, one which places language (in any generation) explicitly within the problem. That is, I've thought a great deal about Ed Foster's introduction of Whitman into the discussion of, amongst so much else, parts and wholes, as he wrote, "discrete letters." It occurs that the issue revolves around the diacritical character of the medium. That and the fact that in the body (or at least in the experience of it) there is a zone (or at least the illusion of one) that does NOT experience the problem of open/closed form, a zone for which experience is analogical. Although the base activity may be digital (this is, of course, borne out by cases of neural dysfunction: those whose neural bridges cannot be closed (one form of schizophrenia) vs. those whose neural bridges cannot be opened (causing severe depression)), the curious twist comes because of the rheostat phenomenon in most of the experiences in the total sensorium; that is, Emotion A is not premeasured in its track from 1 to 10, but seems to traverse a continuum.It may be the simple complication by other emotions, thoughts, sheer digs from the body/far-flung reaches of the sensorium. Who knows? That fact is that it has implications concerning language, which, of course, is diacritical throughout. I'll set aside the opposition speech/language and say the divide seems to come between the diacritical system of language and the bodily generation and/or experience of and/or within that diacritical system. The collision between (or chafing within) the digital necessity of a system and the body's analogical (fact of or) yearning for integration within itself and/or other. Which is how I then read Ed's use of Whitman vis-a-vis phonemics and syntax. However, I would resist the equivalence Ed asserts between Stein and Whitman. Stein, it seems to me, pursued something of the opposite, something like the "truth of language," leading eventually, I think, to Creeley's (approximately) "I follow the words." In any case, my point is that those two terms help to establish the perpetual sense of displacement (chronic OR morphic) that any writer "experiences." Larry Price ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 18:00:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marisa Januzzi Subject: Vinograd..... In-Reply-To: <199512091405.GAA14016@ix11.ix.netcom.com> Thanks all-- will search and post if I find anything like symphonies in Vinograd (how do I get started on these weird searches? months ago it was Gaspara Stampa) see (some of) you in Chicago wearing the damn nametags! --Marisa ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 02:57:35 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Iowa's secret Ed Foster notes: there's >no price on my copy; i don't know why iowa's keeping that a secret. > So that Iowa can change the price as market conditions warrant so long as the book is in print. (The first printing of Tjanting was $6.00 and the second $10.00--you can tell which you have by looking at the price on the rear cover.) Frankly, it's silly to put a price on a book cover. Ron ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 08:02:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: Iowa's secret >Ed Foster notes: there's >>no price on my copy; i don't know why iowa's keeping that a secret. >> >So that Iowa can change the price as market conditions warrant so long >as the book is in print. (The first printing of Tjanting was $6.00 and >the second $10.00--you can tell which you have by looking at the price >on the rear cover.) Frankly, it's silly to put a price on a book cover. > >Ron It may be silly, but stores strongtly prefer it. Dick "Am I So Correct?" HIggins Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 09:48:56 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Iowa's secret >Ed Foster notes: there's >>no price on my copy; i don't know why iowa's keeping that a secret. >> >So that Iowa can change the price as market conditions warrant so long >as the book is in print. (The first printing of Tjanting was $6.00 and >the second $10.00--you can tell which you have by looking at the price >on the rear cover.) Frankly, it's silly to put a price on a book cover. > >Ron Ron, I haven't wondered about that. And would you say that goes for bar codes, too, which encode the price? And does that mean you feel there is really very little reason to try and get our books into stores which demand such things? I'd love to hear you talk about this a little more, as I think it's an important discussion -- the desire to market/distribute books and do it well, without automatically assuming that the "norms" and "demands" of the mass marketplace really suit small press books and their dissemination at all. charles ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 09:50:24 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: oops In my last message, relating to putting the price on books, I meant to say "I have wondered about that," rather than "I haven't wondered about that." Sorry for the denial there. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 11:04:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Anachronism Dear Larry--Well, you certainly bring the discussion to another PLANE but I still think that others out there still think there ARE ANACHROMES and there are still what Riding once called "CONTEMPORARIES AND SNOBS" "out there" (and "in here"---insofar as a Freudian Drive is a Greek GOD) and hopefully that issue will be raised or taken up too.. but, what is BROWNIAN MOTION---It's one of those terms I always hear... I'd like to think it's named after JAMES "Santa's got a brand new bag...." ....though poetry atrophies when it gets too far from MUZAK..... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 14:06:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Larry Price Subject: Astonished Bill Luoma: Your note to me recalled a question I had had: Didn't you recently quote Spicer's "etonnez-moi" and attribute it to Cocteau? Is that in fact the source? It's been a geological era or two since I've seen either of the Cocteau Orpheus films. And it may be that I'm being oratized by Spicer, who puts it in Diaghilev's mouth. But that is the story I remember: Diaghilev meeting Nijinsky for the first time, saying "Astonish me." (He was of course.) Am I wrong? Is it Cocteau? Illuminez-moi. lp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 14:06:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Larry Price Subject: Heartbeat Chris: Brownian motion is thinking you're quoting Breton with approval when in fact you're quoting Goebbels (which I actually did the other day?!?!). It puts my own particular Tobyhorse in perspective: Which is to say: Contingency may or may not be the case, but we're forced to live as though it is. It's the denial of that that artificially makes everything so expensive (in several senses). No more restricted economy exists than a tight ass. As I say: it's not so much a new or old bag as the inability to afford the bags and boxes to want the bags and boxes with. lp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 13:48:38 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "D. LaBeau" Subject: The Kink of Comedy I'm teaching a "Comedy & Society" class in the 9-6, and I'm hoping to use a lot of poetry. Any suggestions on essays or books about comedy & poetics (or comedy & literature in general) that you find interesting would be appreciated. Also, if you want to throw in some poets or fictioneers who strike your funnybone, I'd like to hear that as well. Hopefully I'll be able to get Bob Perelman to give a guest reading/talk to the class. Thanks, Daniel LaBeau ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 15:00:48 EST Reply-To: dgolumbia@iddis.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Golumbia Subject: Re: Anachronism Chris Stroffolino wrote: > > ....though poetry atrophies when it gets too far from MUZAK..... the possibilities are mind-bending, but you forgot the (R) after MUZAK--which raises further mind-bending possibilities--is poetry(R) a brand of something? like, what? -- dgolumbia@iddis.com David Golumbia ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 19:52:18 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: ALERT - Protest Internet Censorship Bills, Tues 12/12/95 Gotta to hope that this is circulating, but having seen no sign on Poetics have taken the e-librty to forward this post. love and love cris >>>>>>>>======================================================================== >>>>>>>> CAMPAIGN TO STOP THE NET CENSORSHIP LEGISLATION IN CONGRESS >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tuesday December 12, 1995, Join With Hundreds of Thousands >>>>>>>> Of Your Fellow Internet Users In >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A NATIONAL INTERNET DAY OF PROTEST >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> PLEASE WIDELY REDISTRIBUTE THIS DOCUMENT WITH THIS BANNER INTACT >>>>>>>> REDISTRIBUTE ONLY UNTIL December 20, 1995 >>>>>>>>________________________________________________________________________ >>>>>>>>CONTENTS >>>>>>>> Internet Day of Protest: Tuesday December 12, 1995 >>>>>>>> What You Must Do On Tuesday December 12, 1995 >>>>>>>> List of Participating Organizations >>>>>>>> Where Can I Learn More? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>________________________________________________________________________ >>>>>>>>INTERNET DAY OF PROTEST: TUESDAY DECEMBER 12, 1995 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Outrageous proposals to censor the Internet demand that the Internet >>>>>>>>Community take swift and immediate action. We must stand up and let >>>>>>>>Congress know that we will not tolerate their attempts to destroy this >>>>>>>>medium! Please join hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens in a >>>>>>>>National Day of Protest on Tuesday December 12, 1995. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>As you know, on Wednesday December 6, 1995, the House Conference >>>>>>>>Committee on Telecommunications Reform voted to impose far reaching and >>>>>>>>unconstitutional "indecency" restrictions on the Internet and other >>>>>>>>interactive media, including large commercial online services (such as >>>>>>>>America Online, Compuserve, and Prodigy) and smaller Internet Service >>>>>>>>Providers such as Panix, the Well, Echo, and Mindvox. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>These restrictions threaten the very existence of the Internet and >>>>>>>>interactive media as a viable medium for free expression, education, >>>>>>>>commerce. If enacted, the Internet as we know it will never be the >>>>>>>>same. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Libraries will not be able to put any books online that might >>>>>>>>offend a child somewhere. No "Catcher in the Rye" or "Ulysses" on >>>>>>>>the net. >>>>>>>>Internet Service Providers could face criminal penalties for allowing >>>>>>>>children to subscribe to their Internet Services, forcing many small >>>>>>>>companies to simply refuse to sell their services to anyone under >>>>>>>>18. Worst >>>>>>>>of all, everything you say and publish on the net will have to be >>>>>>>>"dumbed >>>>>>>>down" to that which is acceptable to a child. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>As Internet users, we simply must not allow this assault against the >>>>>>>>Internet and our most basic freedoms to go unchallenged. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On Tuesday December 12, the organizations below are urging you to >>>>>>>>join us in a NATIONAL DAY OF PROTEST. The goal is to flood key members >>>>>>>>of >>>>>>>>the House and Senate with phone calls, faxes and email with the message >>>>>>>>that the Internet community WILL NOT TOLERATE Congressional attempts to >>>>>>>>destroy the Internet, limit our freedoms and trample on our rights. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Below are the phone, fax, and email address of several key members of >>>>>>>>Congress on this issue and instructions on what you can do to join the >>>>>>>>National Day of Protest to save the Net. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>______________________________________________________________________ >>>>>>>>WHAT YOU MUST DO ON TUESDAY DECEMBER 12, 1995 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>1. Throughout the day Tuesday December 12, please contact as many >>>>>>>> members of Congress on the list below as you can. If you are only >>>>>>>> able to make one call, contact House Speaker Newt Gingrich. Finally, >>>>>>>> if the Senator or Representative from your state is on the list >>>>>>>> below, be sure to contact him or her also. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>2. Urge each Member of Congress to "stop the madness". Tell them that >>>>>>>> they are about to pass legislation that will destroy the Internet as >>>>>>>> an educational and commercial medium. If you are at a loss for >>>>>>>> words, try the following sample communique: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sample phone call: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Both the House and Senate bills designed to protect children >>>>>>>> from objectionable material on the Internet will actually >>>>>>>> destroy the Internet as an medium for education, commerce, and >>>>>>>> political discourse. There are other, less restrictive ways to >>>>>>>> address this issue. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I urge you to oppose both measures being proposed in the >>>>>>>> conference committee. This is an important election issue to >>>>>>>> me. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sample letter (fax or email): >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The Senate conferees are considering ways to protect children >>>>>>>> from inappropriate material on the Internet. A vote for either >>>>>>>> the House or Senate proposals will result in the destruction of >>>>>>>> the Internet as a viable medium for free expression, education, >>>>>>>> commerce. Libraries will not be able to put their entire book >>>>>>>> collections online. Everyday people like me will risk massive >>>>>>>> fines and prison sentences for public discussions someone s >>>>>>>> somewhere might consider "indecent". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are other, less restrictive ways to protect children from >>>>>>>> objectionable material online. This is an important election >>>>>>>> issue to me. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>3. If you're in San Francisco, or near enough to get there, go to >>>>>>>> the Rally Against Censorship from Ground Zero of the Digital >>>>>>>>Revolution: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> WHEN: Monday, December 11, 1995 12:00 - 1:00 PM >>>>>>>> WHERE: South Park (between 2nd and 3rd, Bryant and Brannon) San >>>>>>>>Francisco. >>>>>>>> SPEAKERS: To be announced >>>>>>>> BRING: Attention-grabbing posters, signs, and banners that >>>>>>>>demonstrate >>>>>>>> your committment to free speech and expression, and your >>>>>>>>feelings >>>>>>>> about Congress. >>>>>>>> FOR UPDATED INFORMATION (including rain info): >>>>>>>> http://www.hotwired.com/staff/digaman/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>### THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT ### >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>4. Mail a note to protest@vtw.org to let us know you did your part. >>>>>>>> Although you will not receive a reply due to the number of >>>>>>>> anticipated responses, we'll be counting up the number of people that >>>>>>>> participated in the day of protest. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> P ST Name and Address Phone Fax >>>>>>>> = == ======================== ============== ============== >>>>>>>> R AK Stevens, Ted 1-202-224-3004 1-202-224-1044 >>>>>>>> R AZ McCain, John 1-202-224-2235 1-602-952-8702 >>>>>>>> senator_mccain@mccain.senate.gov >>>>>>>> D HI Inouye, Daniel K. 1-202-224-3934 1-202-224-6747 >>>>>>>> R KS Dole, Robert 1-202-224-6521 1-202-228-1245 >>>>>>>> D KY Ford, Wendell H. 1-202-224-4343 1-202-224-0046 >>>>>>>> wendell_ford@ford.senate.gov >>>>>>>> R MS Lott, Trent 1-202-224-6253 1-202-224-2262 >>>>>>>> R MT Burns, Conrad R. 1-202-224-2644 1-202-224-8594 >>>>>>>> conrad_burns@burns.senate.gov >>>>>>>> D NE Exon, J. J. 1-202-224-4224 1-202-224-5213 >>>>>>>> D SC Hollings, Ernest F. 1-202-224-6121 1-202-224-4293 >>>>>>>> senator@hollings.senate.gov >>>>>>>> R SD Pressler, Larry 1-202-224-5842 1-202-224-1259 >>>>>>>> larry_pressler@pressler.senate.gov >>>>>>>> R WA Gorton, Slade 1-202-224-3441 1-202-224-9393 >>>>>>>> senator_gorton@gorton.senate.gov >>>>>>>> D WV Rockefeller, John D. 1-202-224-6472 n.a. >>>>>>>> senator@rockefeller.senate.gov >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dist ST Name, Address, and Party Phone Fax >>>>>>>> ==== == ======================== ============== ============== >>>>>>>> 6 GA Gingrich, Newt (R) 1-202-225-4501 1-202-225-4656 >>>>>>>> 2428 RHOB georgia6@hr.house.gov >>>>>>>> 14 MI Conyers Jr., John (D) 1-202-225-5126 1-202-225-0072 >>>>>>>> 2426 RHOB jconyers@hr.house.gov >>>>>>>> 1 CO Schroeder, Patricia (D) 1-202-225-4431 1-202-225-5842 >>>>>>>> 2307 RHOB >>>>>>>> 18 TX Jackson-Lee, Sheila (D) 1-202-225-3816 1-202-225-3317 >>>>>>>> 1520 LHOB >>>>>>>> 6 TN Gordon, Bart (D) 1-202-225-4231 1-202-225-6887 >>>>>>>> 2201 RHOB >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>4. Forward this alert to all of your wired friends. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>________________________________________________________________________ >>>>>>>>WHERE CAN I LEARN MORE? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>At this moment, there are several organizations with WWW sites that now >>>>>>>>have, or will have, information about the net censorship legislation and >>>>>>>>the National Day Of Protest: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>American Civil Liberties Union (ftp://ftp.aclu.org/aclu/) >>>>>>>>Center for Democracy and Technology (http://www.cdt.org/) >>>>>>>>Electronic Frontier Foundation (http://www.eff.org/) >>>>>>>>Electronic Privacy Information Center (http://www.epic.org/) >>>>>>>>Wired Magazine (http://www.hotwired.com/special/indecent/) >>>>>>>>Voters Telecommunications Watch (http://www.vtw.org/) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>________________________________________________________________________ >>>>>>>>LIST OF PARTICIPATING ORGANIZATIONS >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>In order to use the net more effectively, several organizations have >>>>>>>>joined forces on a single Congressional net campaign to stop the >>>>>>>>Communications Decency Act. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>American Civil Liberties Union * American Communication Association * >>>>>>>>American Council for the Arts * Arts & Technology Society * Association >>>>>>>>of Alternative Newsweeklies * biancaTroll productions * Boston >>>>>>>>Coalition for Freedom of Expression * Californians Against Censorship >>>>>>>>Together * Center For Democracy And Technology * Centre for Democratic >>>>>>>>Communications * Center for Public Representation * Citizen's Voice - >>>>>>>>New Zealand * Cloud 9 Internet *Computer Communicators Association * >>>>>>>>Computel Network Services * Computer Professionals for Social >>>>>>>>Responsibility * Cross Connection * Cyber-Rights Campaign * CyberQueer >>>>>>>>Lounge * Dorsai Embassy * Dutch Digital Citizens' Movement * ECHO >>>>>>>>Communications Group, Inc. * Electronic Frontier Canada * Electronic >>>>>>>>Frontier Foundation * Electronic Frontier Foundation - Austin * >>>>>>>>Electronic Frontiers Australia * Electronic Frontiers Houston * >>>>>>>>Electronic Frontiers New Hampshire * Electronic Privacy Information >>>>>>>>Center * Feminists For Free Expression * First Amendment Teach-In * >>>>>>>>Florida Coalition Against Censorship * FranceCom, Inc. Web Advertising >>>>>>>>Services * Friendly Anti-Censorship Taskforce for Students * Hands >>>>>>>>Off! The Net * Inland Book Company * Inner Circle Technologies, Inc. * >>>>>>>>Inst. for Global Communications * Internet On-Ramp, Inc. * Internet >>>>>>>>Users Consortium * Joint Artists' and Music Promotions Political Action >>>>>>>>Committee * The Libertarian Party * Marijuana Policy Project * >>>>>>>>Metropolitan Data Networks Ltd. * MindVox * MN Grassroots Party * >>>>>>>>National Bicycle Greenway * National Campaign for Freedom of Expression >>>>>>>>* National Coalition Against Censorship * National Gay and Lesbian Task >>>>>>>>Force * National Public Telecomputing Network * National Writers Union >>>>>>>>* Oregon Coast RISC * Panix Public Access Internet * People for the >>>>>>>>American Way * Republican Liberty Caucus * Rock Out Censorship * >>>>>>>>Society for Electronic Access * The Thing International BBS Network * >>>>>>>>The WELL * Voters Telecommunications Watch >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>(Note: All 'Electronic Frontier' organizations are independent entities, >>>>>>>> not EFF chapters or divisions.) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>________________________________________________________________________ >>>>>>>> End Alert >>>>>>>>======================================================================== >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>William Jenkins E-Mail: >>>>>>>William.Jenkins@asu.edu >>>>>>>School of Art, Arizona State University Voice: (602)965-5667 >>>>>>>Tempe, AZ 85281-1505 Fax: (602)965-8338 >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Dan Collins >>>>>>Associate Professor >>>>>>School of Art >>>>>>Arizona State University >>>>>>Tempe, AZ 85287-1505 >>>>>>602.965.8311 >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > >xray@pacific.net.sg > >Ray Langenbach >School of Arts,Nanyang Technological University >469 Bukit Timah Road, Singapore 1025 >or >430A Racecourse Road, Singapore 0821 > >Voicemail:65-460-5640; Fax: 65-292-7414 > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 15:24:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Heartbeat Larry--If the denial of contingency (as "the case"--as "mortal coil" or "ideology?") is what "artificially makes everything so expensive (in several senses)" does one of these senses include the sense in which TV is cheaper than LSD (a line from Goddard's--or do I mean Goebbel's-- BAND OF OUTSIDERS)? For, if one person's ceiling is another one's floor, (in a strictly figurative sense), then the "restricted economy" must be used against itself in language and thus poetry may seem nothing but affirmative action in its revauling of heirarchies unless one can do away with heirarchies--and if that's an impossibility, on one level, then we're back to the question of a PSYCHIC ECONOMY we left hanging not too long ago. Or do you want to bag it? Chris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 09:40:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: Re: printed RRR (was Iowa's secret) >>Ed Foster notes: there's >>>no price on my copy; i don't know why iowa's keeping that a secret. >>> >>So that Iowa can change the price as market conditions warrant so long >>as the book is in print. (The first printing of Tjanting was $6.00 and >>the second $10.00--you can tell which you have by looking at the price >>on the rear cover.) Frankly, it's silly to put a price on a book cover. >> >>Ron > >It may be silly, but stores strongtly prefer it. > >Dick "Am I So Correct?" HIggins > >Dick Higgins >P O Box 27 >Barrytown, NY 12507 > Tel- (914) 758-6488 > Fax- (914) 758-4416 > e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net The stores I have dealt with in Australia in setting up a small press distributor actually prefer not to have the price on the cover . As a distributor prices on the cover can be a major problem. A number of publishers have set their wholesale and RRP prices based on dealing directly with bookstores. Their margins are, of course, so small that they can't place stock with a distributor for less than their current wholesale price. Because they have announced their RRP on the cover there is also no room to increase the RRP so that the distributor and the bookseller also have a margin - as a result the publisher doesn't get their book/magazine into a new bookshop because the bookseller isn't prepared to cover a printed RRP with a higher price. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 15:50:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AARON SHURIN Subject: Re: Astonished In-Reply-To: <951213140628_132299562@mail06.mail.aol.com> Diaghilev told Cocteau to "ettone-moi." Cocteau later slyly turned it when, in his film "Orphee", he has Orpheus being told the same thing, when Orpheus feels he's losing his critical edge.In the movie a new review has just appeared. It's called "Nudism": blank pages. On Wed, 13 Dec 1995, Larry Price wrote: > Bill Luoma: > > Your note to me recalled a question I had had: Didn't you recently quote > Spicer's "etonnez-moi" and attribute it to Cocteau? Is that in fact the > source? It's been a geological era or two since I've seen either of the > Cocteau Orpheus films. And it may be that I'm being oratized by Spicer, who > puts it in Diaghilev's mouth. But that is the story I remember: Diaghilev > meeting Nijinsky for the first time, saying "Astonish me." (He was of > course.) Am I wrong? Is it Cocteau? Illuminez-moi. > > lp > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 17:55:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: The Kink of Comedy >I'm teaching a "Comedy & Society" class in the 9-6, and I'm hoping to >use a lot of poetry. Any suggestions on essays or books about >comedy & poetics (or comedy & literature in general) that you find >interesting would be appreciated. Also, if you want to throw in some >poets or fictioneers who strike your funnybone, I'd like to hear that >as well. Hopefully I'll be able to get Bob Perelman to give a guest >reading/talk to the class. > >Thanks, > >Daniel LaBeau Daniel, there's a collection called THE MAVERICK POETS, or something close to that. Not purely humor, but humor therein, and direct. Charles Bernstein has done some wonderful things you're probably familiar with that "do" comedy wonderfully. His "Emotions for Normal People" stands out in my mind. Sheila Murphy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 20:49:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: Astonished >Bill Luoma: > >Your note to me recalled a question I had had: Didn't you recently quote >Spicer's "etonnez-moi" and attribute it to Cocteau? Is that in fact the >source? It's been a geological era or two since I've seen either of the >Cocteau Orpheus films. And it may be that I'm being oratized by Spicer, who >puts it in Diaghilev's mouth. But that is the story I remember: Diaghilev >meeting Nijinsky for the first time, saying "Astonish me." (He was of >course.) Am I wrong? Is it Cocteau? Illuminez-moi. > >lp I think Spicer was right, it was Diaghilev's charge to Cocteau when PARADE was commissioned. There is a good account of it in Gold and Fizdale's biography of Misia Sert, also in Steegmuller's book on Cocteau. Dick Higgins Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 23:43:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Subtext readings Winter 96 Hi - Here're the next three readings of the Subtext series and a couple of readings that we're co-sponsoring: Thursday December 14 Deanna Ferguson & Ezra Mark Thursday January 18 Mickey O'Connor & Dan Raphael Thursday February 15 Laynie Browne & Kathryn MacLeod the above 3 readings at the Speakeasy Cafe, 2314 2nd Avenue, in Seattle's Belltown district, at 7:30 pm. The two co-sponsored readings are being presented in collaboration with The Rendezvous Reading series, at the Empty Space Theater at Olive St & 11th Ave on Capitol Hill: Tuesday February 27 Rosmarie Waldrop Tuesday March 12 Robin Blaser Ezra Mark is curating January through April for Subtext, the following 3 or 4 months will be curated by Nico Vassilakis. If there are folks on poetics who are interested in a reading in Seattle during this period, you can get in touch with them through me at the address below. Bests Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 23:43:26 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Joey Simas? Robert Mittenthal asked me to see if anyone had Joey Simas' CompuServe (or other) e-mail address. If so, could you please send it to me or post it to the list. Thanks. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 03:10:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wendy Battin Subject: Re: Anachronism In-Reply-To: <199512140643.BAA03623@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Chris Stroffolino wrote: but, what is BROWNIAN MOTION---It's one of those terms I always hear... I'd like to think it's named after JAMES "Santa's got a brand new bag...." ....though poetry atrophies when it gets too far from MUZAK..... Chris, Given that the literal is smarter than most of us: Brownian motion is the frenetics heat gives to molecules. The hotter the gas (no editorial comment intended or necessary), the faster the molecules quiver, the faster they collide with each other, the faster they quiver after colliding, etc. Lovelier when grasped than most discouse. Wendy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 02:31:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Fwd: Internet advertising Thought that this might be of interest to folks who tend to think of this as an alternate space. Don't see books of poetry as a category below. Nor the EPC. Late capitalism gets later.... Ron Silliman TITLE AT&T tops list of Internet advertisers DOCNO INW 953450589 DATE 951211 MESSAGE THIS IS THE FULL TEXT. CITATION The Reuter Business Report, December 8, 1995, Friday, BC cycle LENGTH 253 words DATELINE NEW YORK ABSTRACT The following is a list of the leading advertisers, ad revenue by publisher, and advertising categories on the Internet, compiled by Webtrack, a New York-based research concern. Advertiser.................Dollars spent/fourth qtr 95 1 AT&T.......................567,000 2 Netscape...................556,000 3 Internet Shopping Network..329,000 4 NECX Direct................322,000 5 Mastercard.................278,000 6 American Airlines..........254,000 7 Microsoft..................240,000 8 C/Net......................237,000 9 MCI........................231,000 10-SportsLine..................218,000 Publisher.................Advertising dollars received 1-Netscape...................1,766,000 2-Lycos......................1,296,000 3-InfoSeek...................1,086,000 4-Yahoo......................1,086,000 5-Pathfinder...................810,000 6-HotWired.....................720,000 7-WebCrawler...................660,000 8-ESPNET SportZone.............600,000 9-GNN..........................594,000 10-c/net........................540,000 Top 10 ad sectors....pct/total.....dollars 1-Web sites/services...37.1...4,606,000 2-Computers/equipment..19.8...2,452,000 3-Telecommunications....9.6...1,196,000 4-Financial services....6.9.....858,000 5-Autos/accessories.....5.5.....679,000 6-Travel/resort.........4.1.....505,000 7-Entertainment.........3.3.....405,000 8-Beer/wine/liquor......3.0.....364,000 9-Soft drinks...........1.2.....150,000 10-Apparel/footwear......1.2.....145,000 INDEX BC ONLINE CHART COMPANY AT&T CORP TICKER T (NYSE) ======================================================================= ====== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 13:16:48 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Publication Series announcement re: Language aLive BOOKS Sound & Language announce the publication of the first of a series of 5 books given over to presenting writing for Live action or developed through Live action or directly related to Live action. Language aLive presents the materials themselves, unmediated by critical discourse or academic frameworks. Language aLive is a Primary Resource for writing and performance. Its focus is purposefully on Language and on ways in which inter-disciplinary artists are transforming language through their attentions. The first issue (88pp plus full colour wraparound cover) features: - Fiona Templeton ('Titova Balcony Speech' & 'King Verdict') - Forced Entertainment ('Speak Bitterness') - Fiona Wright ('Jonah Touching Jonah' documents) forthcoming issues (two and three will appear in February / March '96) will include work by Brian Catling / Man Act / Caroline Bergvall / Aaron Williamson & Tertia Longmire / Gary Stevens / Carla Harryman / Steve Benson / Robert Overson / Kip Fulbeck / Donna Rutherford / Eric Belgum 'Many of those being published by Language aLive clamber deliberately in the hybrid cracks between conventional categories such as drama, literature, music and dance. The syntax in these books won't necessarily re-present vernacular speech, nor conform to conventional sentence formations.These writings often have more in common, in terms of how their language materials are processed, with movement or sound-based compositions, with film and video editing techniques, with technological modes of production, with interventions into architextural space. In each case they do not tell their whole story.' Language aLive is an open exploration into ideas towards the construction of 'an' anthology of primary sources that can can be used as materials for study and as blueprints for performance exporation. By far the best way of supporting this project is to subscribing or to order separate issues direct. rates are as follows: single issues =A34.50 (uk) / =A35.50 (elsewhere) 2 issues =A38 (uk) / =A310 (elsewhere) 3 issues =A311 (uk) / =A313 (elsewhere) 4 issues =A314 (uk) / =A317 (elsewhere) 5 issues =A316 (uk) / =A318 (elsewhere) prices include post and packing. All cheques (bona fide international money orders) etc payable to Sound & Language please contact: cris cheek at Sound & Language 85 London Road South, Lowestoft Suffolk, NR33 OAS or e-mail (cris@slang.demon.co.uk) love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 10:31:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: Chris, you anachronism you Chris: Now, a conscious anachronism would be an attempt to say something about how the past relates to the present, wouldn't it? mark wallace ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:11:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Perelman Subject: hi/comedy/food Hi. I've just re-signed back onto the poetics chat line & saw Daniel Labeau's message, wrote him, & am now forwarding > As for what to look at--not a heck of a > lot comes to mind. There's Charles's "Optimism and Critical Excess" in *A > Poetics*; what else? I once tried reading Bergson on comedy but couldn't > make it very far. Baudelaire, actually, has an essay about the mechanical > element in comedy that I think de Man discusses. I doubt you'll have seen > what's going to the last chapter of my language writing book (out this > spring from Princeton); (it's currently in *Raddle Moon*): a faux > dialogue between Barthes & O'Hara in a televised afterlife. It's funny > w/ a garnish of pathos & a generous side of big issues. > > Humor's very interesting. It's a terribly evanescent quality. Is *Slinger* > still funny? (I can imagine entrenched defences: *Yes* it's *very* funny! > but such entrenchment would be part of humor's time-problem) How much of > Berrigan? In a poetry class the other day I found myself explaining the > thicket of jokes in Ashbery's "Daffy Duck in Hollywood": logically, > objectively, mentally--however you want to say it--it's very funny; but > getting the angles opened up for general contemplation took quite awhile: > "I scarce dare approach me mug's attenuated / reflection in yon hubcap" > (the reference to "Self-Portrait in a Convex Mirror"; the Popeye diction; > the clash of yon/hubcap) (and the whole Bugs/Daffy cartoonist-cartoonee > scenario). > > But detecting bits of humor makes almost anything better: the frozen > solemnity of the authorized word is not an attractive quality. Is the > dynamic always one of local context (knowingly too small, inappropriate) > attached transgressively to the Authorized Word?? So is the datedness > always going to be built in? But 'trangression', 'subversion' are so > cliched these days . . . > > Bob Perelman > ** addendum to food-poem query: My "An Autobiography" (reprinted in *American Tree*) is nothing if not 'foody' as Kerouac would say. PPS: Poetry Archive at SF State has (I think) tapes of our *"A"*-24; there's (I think) an audio tape of our best performance; the video'd performance wasn't so hot: my piano playing was 'medium'; we were all as I remember spread out on the stage & a bit nervous. The performers were Barry Watten: Poem; Kit Robinson: Story; Lyn Hejinian: Essay; Steve Benson/Carla Harryman: Drama ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:13:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Re: The Kink of Comedy Comments: cc: drothschild@penguin.com, 72330.3423@compuserve.com Another new yorker is funny as well: Tom Veitch, Death College and Other Poems turned on to me by Don Cheney light-years ago. Which reminds me that Don has written one of the funniest books i've ever read. It's called the qualms of Catullus at K-mart and it's a translation of catullus' opus. Don catches much more of the spirit of catullus than zukofsky. Some snippets follow. Furius, who is a serious necker, is an archaic necker. His necking doesn't climax, his necking ignites. I am you and father and new wave. We quarrel about dentists and the mess made by silent possums. It is pulchritue to me who has two parents. Varus, my cat is in love with you. You Pig! Let's duke it out! You little squirt! Repent! You are a pig! A pig with an upset stomach! You're not sane! Don't sermonize, don't quibble, just quit it! It is magnificent, horrible, sacred and libel! When you solicit Catullus for advice you'll miss coninuity and die like a rat. Saturn will turn but you will die! If luxury and a library are your interests I'll bite your chin. I love your big, night eyes Calvus but you're a pest not a poet. I command you to be my lover, Aurelius. You can pet and put it in but keep your quick, animal hands off Juventius, who is a casting expert and is intelligent. When salt is firm and not false, Prickface dies. For sure is the language of kings, oh cutie-pie the language of all geniuses and Pisces. Language doesn't complain, but Prickface is exasperated. He concedes to sit with gods (he isn't always dumb). The gods praise salt and dumb Prickface eggs them on. hi five Don, Bill ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:08:04 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: Help -- George Hartley Poetics Group: Given the tenor & topics of discussions of the past couple of weeks, be forewarned: this message is not for everyone. It is an appeal for help, and it involves academia and the treatment of an academic. It's also a fairly lengthy message, and it does involve a person's livelihood. If you've already lost interest, delete the message now.... George Hartley and I have been communicating over his department's decision (October 20th - English Department - Ohio State University) to deny him tenure. After a series of very positive yearly reviews, George was inexplicably voted down for tenure. As many of you on this list may already know, George is the author of _Textual Politics and the Language Poets_ (1989, Indiana University Press - the first book of criticism published by an academic press on Language poetry). George's critical writing focuses on Marxist criticism. _Textual Politics_ includes a chapter, "Jameson's Perelman: Reification and the Material Signifier," which takes Jameson to task. In addition to _Textual Politics_, George has published 12 articles (2 of which have been republished by other journals), 6 book reviews, and 2 lengthy poems, in addition to delivering 7 scholarly talks. He has also nearly completed a second book (which he has been researching and writing for the past four years--on theories of language, representation, and ideology in Kant, Hegel, Nietzsche, and Jameson). George's external evaluators were Jerry McGann, Charles Altieri, Charles Bernstein, Robert Wess, and Michael Sprinker. While Sprinker offered a negative evaluation, the others were very positive. McGann, for example, concludes that Hartley would definitely have gotten McGann's positive vote for tenure at Virginia; Altieri calls Hartley's book on language poetry quite simply the best critical work done on that subject. I know Hartley to be a dedicated teacher and a fine, passionate thinker. I have written on _Textual Politics_ in an essay in ALH, and Hartley's work figures in my forthcoming _Opposing Poetries_. George has appealed the negative departmental decision to the Dean. I am in the process of writing a letter to George's Dean. If you are familiar with George's work and would like to help, I suggest that you write a letter to George's Dean. Letters need to arrive by January 3rd. Please address your letter to the Dean and send a copy to the provost and the president and to George. addresses: Kermit Hall, Dean of Humanities The Ohio State University 186 University Hall 230 N. Oval Mall Columbus, OH 43210 Richard Sisson, Provost The Ohio State University 203 Bricker Hall 190 N. Oval Mall Columbus, OH 43210 E. Gordon Gee, President The Ohio State University 205 Bricker Hall 190 N. Oval Mall Columbus, OH 43210 George Hartley 2023 Queensbridge Drive Columbus, OH 43235 I will be glad to provide additional information as needed back-channel ( hlazer@as.ua.edu ) so as not to clog up other Poetic discussions. My apologies for this lengthy intrusion into other threads of current discussions, but I believe that George has not been treated fairly and that letters may help him. Hank Lazer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 12:24:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Chris, you anachronism you Mark--- But how do you DEFINE the PAST and the PRESENT? Larry seemed to meant anachronism more as "out of time" and you seemed to mean it as "dated." If so, why in your opinion is poet X dated and poet Q not? And to what extent is anachronism a pejorative term for you.... And to what extent is "keeping up with fashions" a pejorative term for you? And what does "make it new" have to do with conspicuous consumption, and "taste" (that dread bourgeois word!)-- I'm just curious about your assumptions......chris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 13:05:58 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Alan Golding Subject: Kink of Comedy Associate Professor of English, U. of Louisville Phone: (502)-852-5918; e-mail: acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu Daniel LaBeau: The first critical book to occur to me was Ronald Wallace's God Be With the Clown: Humor in American Poetry. A couple of my own comic favorites are Ed Dorn's Slinger and Ginsberg's "America" (not to mention a whole ton of other Ginsberg stuff). To Sheila's mention of Chuck B.'s "Emotions of Normal People" I'd add "Standing Target"; his essay "Comedy and the Poetics of Political Form" and the end of the "Optimism and Critical Excess" essay, both in A Poetics. And yes, Captive Audience and Virtual Reality. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 12:33:45 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Kink of Comedy I would certainly include in any look at recent humor in poetry, works by bp Nichol and Steve McCaffery, and if possible I'd include some of their sound poetry and visual poetry. Selected Organs by Nichol comes to mind right away, as does some of the work in McCaffery & Nichol's Rational Geomancy. But there's a lot more. Charles Alexander Chax Press P.O. Box 19178 Minneapolis, MN 55419-0178 612-721-6063 (phone & fax) chax@mtn.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 18:04:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: Chris, you anachronism you > Mark--- > But how do you DEFINE the PAST and the PRESENT? > Larry seemed to meant anachronism more as "out of time" > and you seemed to mean it as "dated." If so, why in your > opinion is poet X dated and poet Q not? And to what extent > is anachronism a pejorative term for you.... > And to what extent is "keeping up with fashions" a pejorative > term for you? And what does "make it new" have to do with > conspicuous consumption, and "taste" (that dread bourgeois word!)-- > I'm just curious about your assumptions......chris In thinking about this, please to think also of Carlyle's "Past and Present." It deals with so many of these issues, albeit so long ago. Dick Higgins Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 18:42:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: Kink of Comedy In-Reply-To: from "Alan Golding" at Dec 14, 95 01:05:58 pm Re: Humor and poetry, I think immediately of Robin Blaser's ongoing series, "The Truth Is Laughter", which dots the Holy Forest and keeps it all honest. Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 16:49:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jeffrey timmons Subject: Re: Anachro-Movement Comments: To: Wendy Battin In-Reply-To: isn't brownian movement also believed to be somewhat inexplicable? jeffrey timmons ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 00:49:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: comedy lots of Kenneth Koch, going as far back as "Lunch" ("Let us give lunch to the lunch!"). David Shapiro, bleak humor but humor big wads of Charles B, as several have mentioned Marvell, "Upon Appleton House" almost all of Ashbery swatches of /The Cantos/ Lewis Carroll etc etc ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 02:37:46 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Kink of Comedy You wrote: > >Re: Humor and poetry, I think immediately of Robin Blaser's ongoing >series, "The Truth Is Laughter", which dots the Holy Forest and keeps >it all honest. > >Mike >mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca > It's a shame that George Bowering is off in Italy, since he's one of the funniest writers around. As is David Bromige. Surprised nobody has mentioned Jonathon Williams in this regard. About 25 years ago, when I was having trouble getting into Coolidge's work (specifically Ing and Space), Barrett Watten (who has an enormous number of sly jokes in his own work) got me going by precisely noting the humor in Clark's poetry. Both Bernstein and Ginsberg are, I think, primarily satirists (and in person the heritage of standup comedy is visible in their readings), but for reasons of the history of poetry nobody seems to focus on same in commentary on their work. Bob Perelman likewise. Anselm Hollo. Tom Raworth. Norman Fischer. Carla Harryman. I'm tempted to ask the opposite question. Who today writes poems that don't include humor? Ron ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 09:23:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: comedy Just arrived yesterday, _New and Selected Poems_ by Ron Padgett. Ted Berrigan's poem "Tambourine Life" holds up pretty well as comedy, tho it's true, Ed Dorn's _Slinger_ may not. Bill Luoma's _My Trip to New York_ is a riot of a certain kind. Steve Moran's pome "Cafeteria Worker in New Jersey" cracks me up. There is raucous mild humor in Maureen Owen's early work, and there's genteel rude humor in Tony Towle's early work. Edwin Denby is very witty, and William Carlos Williams makes me laugh, Niedecker's zany, Moore's good for a few, Robert Frost's poem "New Hampshire" is funny. People tell me Auden is funny, and I believe them. I always thought Coleridge's _Biographia_ was a great joke. Byron's funny poems hold up. Juvenal's poems probably don't hold up. Propertius does pretty well in Vincent Katz's new translation. I don't know if it's LMAO funny but it's LOL funny for me anyway. Apollinaire and Cendrars are very funny. "The Beggar Woman of Naples" is great hideous joke poem by Max Jacob. But maybe it'd help to know _what_ about comedy you want to teach? Satire? Good humor? Different tropes of closure (i.e. punchlines)? Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 10:33:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Willa Jarnagin Subject: Re: comedy In-Reply-To: <199512150749.AAA02008@web.azstarnet.com> Alice Notley has written some hilarious poems. --Willa ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 10:55:41 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gale Nelson Subject: Re: comedy In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 15 Dec 1995 10:33:49 -0500 from The Autobiography of Rose (Gertrude Stein) is among the most pleasantly humorous works (is it a poem or not doesn't really concern me, but may your students...) I can think of. Kevin Davies' work suggests a certain level of laughing is appopriate. Marjorie Milligan (look at Lish's Quarterly to find her work) is great fun. She's soneone who is overdue in the "first book forthcoming" sector... I giggled a great deal during Jean Fremon's reading this past October (the translator is Cole Swensen) when he read from his latest novel -- again, the question of genre seems to blur here. Lisa Jarnot earns more than the occasional tee-hee, and her first book is due from the Burning Deck this spring. I'm hard pressed to stop from laughing when reading the Trial Impressions of Harry Mathews... Tom Ryan leaps to mind for delightful word play -- though nothing new in the last many years... Michael Gizzi's Continental Harmony has some very sad laughs -- Cranston, France certainly 'mong 'em. Can we count the very short works of Lydia Davis? I would hope so, as they seem to blur the odd line between prose poetry and short-short fiction. And she stuns me with her fantastic pieces. And once I mention Davis, I'm reminded of her suggesting the importance of Russell Edson to her development... I have a hard time stopping myself from laughing when turning his pages. I haven't read the books by noted writers James Stewart, John Paul II, and Suzanne Sommers, but I've been told there's some interesting turns in them for the funny bone. Cheers, Gale Nelson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 08:18:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: comedy I forgot who started this thread but it was someone who was teaching a course on comedy and poetry I think? If Donald Allen's book "The New American Poetry" is still in print, order that for your class. I always love the big vatic oracular pieces he prints there like "The Kingfishers" of Olson or the Robert Duncan poems like "Often I am Permitted to Return to a Meadow." There is after all a huge *camp* value in their pronouncements. They are so full of themselves-Allen wisely lets them speak on and on, creating a whole Dickens world of pomposity and cant in one volume. He is a great editor and the book is filled with fun from beginning to end. Of course this is a Kristevan kind of comedy not far removed from revulsion like her famous trope of the skim on top of her cocoa. -Kevin Killian ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 11:14:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: comedy In-Reply-To: Probably the funniest section of a longpoem for me is somewhere in the middle of Thomas McGrath's *Letter to an Imaginary Friend*, where he writes about life "with the family Peets". *I laughed, I cried . . .* But *Letter* can only be considered a comedy in a very broad definition of the form. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 684-6277 There is some excitement in one corner, but most of the ghosts are merely shaking their heads. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 11:04:35 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: comedy Who-l I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked, dragging angelheaded who who who who who who who with incomparable Peyote who who who a yacketayakking whole who suffering who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who and who returning Pilgrim with ah and who to the and with. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 16:10:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Don Cheney Subject: Re: The Kink of Comedy Thanks for the kind words, Bill, and that reminds ME to tell THE LIST that THE QUALMS OF CATULLUS & K-MART is on the web at: http://fuji.ucsd.edu/alfredo/catmain.html it is currently under construction as I add a number of drawings that Rose Anne Raphael did for the book--several of her drawings are up already. The text is all there, however. other pieces I've written are available on the web at: http://fuji.ucsd.edu/alfredo/writing.html with such crowd favorites as: Algae Is Empire Over The World Of Used Book Stores me and said Lick My Skull Dry The Profanity of the Lambs and With Art Comes The Things I Meant To i'm currently html-coding my novel, NO ONE A-BANDONS ME!, a book that I translated from the Harold Robbins so that everybody can be free! The first few chapters of that are up--and i'll be adding chapters as I code them and i'll also be adding some wonderfully funny drawings by todd tracy that he did for the book. one is available now. I encourage everyone to check out the page and let me know what you think. comments on the html-ness of the page are welcome also. -----------Also by Tom Veitch, THE LUIS ARMED STORY-- great stuff!------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Another new yorker is funny as well: Tom Veitch, Death College and Other Poems turned on to me by Don Cheney light-years ago. Which reminds me that Don has written one of the funniest books i've ever read. It's called the qualms of Catullus at K-mart and it's a translation of catullus' opus. Don catches much more of the spirit of catullus than zukofsky. Some snippets follow. Furius, who is a serious necker, is an archaic necker. His necking doesn't climax, his necking ignites. I am you and father and new wave. We quarrel about dentists and the mess made by silent possums. It is pulchritue to me who has two parents. Varus, my cat is in love with you. You Pig! Let's duke it out! You little squirt! Repent! You are a pig! A pig with an upset stomach! You're not sane! Don't sermonize, don't quibble, just quit it! It is magnificent, horrible, sacred and libel! When you solicit Catullus for advice you'll miss coninuity and die like a rat. Saturn will turn but you will die! If luxury and a library are your interests I'll bite your chin. I love your big, night eyes Calvus but you're a pest not a poet. I command you to be my lover, Aurelius. You can pet and put it in but keep your quick, animal hands off Juventius, who is a casting expert and is intelligent. When salt is firm and not false, Prickface dies. For sure is the language of kings, oh cutie-pie the language of all geniuses and Pisces. Language doesn't complain, but Prickface is exasperated. He concedes to sit with gods (he isn't always dumb). The gods praise salt and dumb Prickface eggs them on. hi five Don, Bill >-- Saved internet headers (useful for debugging) >Received: from UCSD.EDU by mail.ucsd.edu; id JAA07581 sendmail 8.6.12/UCSD-2.2- >Received: from listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu (listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7. >Received: from listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu (listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7. >Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LISTSERV release >Received: from UBVM (NJE origin SMTP@UBVM) by UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail >Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) >Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA04273; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 >Message-ID: <951214111340_54025405@mail04.mail.aol.com> >Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:13:45 -0500 >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >Sender: UB Poetics discussion group >From: Bill Luoma >Subject: Re: The Kink of Comedy >Comments: cc: drothschild@penguin.com, 72330.3423@compuserve.com >To: Multiple recipients of list POETICS ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 12:48:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Comedy >>I'm tempted to ask the opposite question. >>Who today writes poems that >>don't include humor? >>Ron That's a good question did you know ron ron means to purr. It (being funny) is obvious for some people who invoke humor like CharlesB and Kevin Killian and Piaget say (his new book is funny btw just by the cover you know it's funny thanks ups) and a lot of free play which is very funny and gives off lots of pleasure and eros. Then there are others, ie some people get labled as serious/deep poets like merwin or experimental poets or lyric poets and those poles can "seem" to nullify "jokes". Ron you would probably not argue that this labelling is correct should be changed is what i got from your question. You mean who thinks Jackson MacLow is funny? And say Rae Armantrout, who thinks she's hilarious ? ("die mommy scum" & "you can stop dancing now, launch pad" & "wedgie" being sources of rounding belly laughs) Bill ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 09:56:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: message to hank In-Reply-To: <199512150505.AAA09896@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> please backchannel with further info. letters from outsiders can sometimes worsen the situation if not carefully directed to the issues. i assume that most of us can only write of our high opinion of george's written work and his generally good character -- i assume that his dept. has given him some reason (that should not be published here) for the turndown -- please let me know privately whatever you're at liberty to reveal, and i'll then get a letter off --Need to know, for example, whteher that fine book, which was written before he got the job, was counted in his probationary period or not -- --aldon ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 13:35:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: printed RRR (was Iowa's secret) re: book prices on cover. for whatever it may or maynot be worth, this: all talisman books carry a price on the cover, and if/when it's necessary to change the price, we'll add a sticker over the original. the problem is the barcode, which contains the original price, and that wd have to be stickered, too. a fair number of publishers we deal with in one fashion or another don't have the price in the bar code. but i have a feeling they're generally the people who are publishing for profit, and they'll move the price up as far as they think the market will allow. well, maybe i'm wrong, but i think it's better to keep the price within a decent range--i.e., as low as possible--and then you'll have more readers, no small matter when the audience is about as small as the audience for any kind of book anywhere. ANYWAY: the new terrific Talisman catalogue is now being printed, and if you're not already on our mailing list and you want a copy, please write: Talisman, P.O. Box 3157, Jersey City, NJ 07303-3157. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 11:42:39 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: WaldrOops Uh, sorry, but I had the wrong day & date for the Rosmarie Waldrop reading in Seattle. It's still at 8:00 at the New City Theater, but the date is Wednesday 28 February, not the Tuesday of that week. & it's not the last day of the month either. I hope you all are able to change your hotel and airline reservations for your visit to see/hear this reading. Bests Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 12:47:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jeffrey timmons Subject: New Web Page: Book Arts & Book History [xposted] (fwd) - - The original note follows - - Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 15:23:33 -0500 (EST) From: "ANDREW K. PACE" Subject: New Web Page To: BOOK_ART-L@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU, BIBLIO@SMARTLINK.NET, LETPRESS@UNB.CA, EXLIBRIS@LIBRARY.BERKELEY.EDU, LIS-RAREBOOKS@MAILBASE.AC.UK, LIBEX-L@MAINE.MAINE.EDU, TYPO-L@IRLEARN.UCD.IE, CONDIST@LINDY.STANFORD.EDU, SHARP-L@IUBVM.UCS.INDIANA.EDU, ir000913@interramp.com, grossi@his.com, pp002537@interramp.com Reply-To: lis-rarebooks@MAILBASE.AC.UK Sender: lis-rarebooks-request@MAILBASE.AC.UK GUIDE TO THE BOOK ARTS AND BOOK HISTORY ON THE WORLD WIDE WEB http://www.cua.edu/www/mullen/bookarts.html THIS MESSAGE HAS BEEN CROSS-POSTED TO SEVERAL LISTS, SO PLEASE FORGIVE THE DUPLICATION The Catholic University of America Libraries and the School of Library and Information Science at CUA are proud to announce a new site on the World Wide Web. "A Guide to the Book Arts and Book History on the World Wide Web" is an organized list of links to Web pages that deal with book arts and book history. The annotated list includes links to over 175 sites, and includes pointers to: Academic & Special Collections, Book Arts Courses & Exhibits, Booksellers, Discussion Lists, Electronic Journals & Publications, Finding Aids & WWW Guides, Government Organizations, Professional & Scholarly Organizations, and Special Topics (Bookbinding, Classics, Copyright, Iconography, Language, Papyrology, Preservation, and Typography). It is hoped that this guide will serve the needs of scholars, students, book collectors, and anyone interested in "the book" and all its facets. Any comments or suggestions of links to add are welcome and would be greatly appreciated. The page remains under construction, and will be updated on a regular basis. The URL for this site is: http://www.cua.edu/www/mullen/bookarts.html Happy Surfing, Andrew K. Pace Library Assistant Library and Information Science Library Library Student School of Library and Information Science pacea@cua.edu The Catholic University of America ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 14:59:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joshua N Schuster Subject: Re: comedy poetry's been covered exstensively on this strain, tho I would add much of Steve McCaffery's work as well. And perhaps ALL of the FLUXUS writers are quite vaudevillian. If it's around, LaMonte Young's *An Anthology* is a chronical of such acute silliness. Perhaps the funniest work I've read at ever is Raymond Queneau's _Exercises in Style_ (New Directions). A great example of finding humor in the most banal of circumstances, which I usually find more challenging than straight stand-up "schtick". I tend to get carried away w/ laughter but I would go as far as to toss people like Derrida and Baudrillard in as some of the most hilarious theorists. hahe, joshua ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 13:09:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jeffrey timmons Subject: Re: comedy In-Reply-To: <199512151704.LAA21722@charlie.acc.iit.edu> joe: hope you dont mind: Who-l saw the best minds my generation destroyed by madness starving hysterical naked dragging angelheaded who who who who who who who incomparable Peyote who who who yacketayakking whole who suffering who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who Pilgrim ah who to the and with. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 16:34:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: comedy In-Reply-To: <199512151704.LAA21722@charlie.acc.iit.edu> Joe Amato's Ginsburg parody reminds me: don't you folks think Poe's "The Bells" hilarious? Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 684-6277 There is some excitement in one corner, but most of the ghosts are merely shaking their heads. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 15:42:14 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "D. LaBeau" Subject: Thanks/Comedy Thanks for the big response to my comedy request. I'll be taking a look at a lot of stuff. Ron S.'s question: Who isn't writing funny these days? was quite a doozy. Made me realize every reading I've been to lately was full of 'funny' poems, though the sharpness of the humor varied. Even dark & serious poets like Strand were doing stand-up routines, and from the slams I've seen, it seems that humor has replaced brooding as the dominant mode of the hip youngster poem. Thanks again, Dan LaBeau ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 17:34:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Baker Subject: Hartley Tenure Decision Comments: To: BAKER@MIDGET.TOWSON.EDU I want to thank Hank Lazer for alerting members of the Poetics Listing to the ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 17:43:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Baker Subject: Hartley Tenure Decision Comments: To: BAKER@MIDGET.TOWSON.EDU I wanted to communicate public gratitude to Hank Lazer for alerting those on the Poetics List to the travesty of the negative tenure decision concerning one of the most stimulating and informed writers on contemporary poetry and poetics. I further think that it is *extremely* unfortunate that the recent tenor of discussion regarding the evils of the reductively-labled "professionalism" caused Hank to feel he had to apologize in any way whatsoever for his listing. His posting was perhaps the most important one I've seen in my three months on the list. If such issues are not of vital importance to the community involved in poetry and poetics, I can't imagine what would be. Thanks again, Hank. Peace, Peter Baker ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 17:47:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Baker Subject: How to Be a Poet Comments: To: BAKER@MIDGET.TOWSON.EDU This is a belated response to Mike Boughn's minimalist response to the query: how to be a poet? The response: write poetry leaves out the important corollary: read the poetry written by others, now and in the past and I would probably add: know another language well enough to translate a poet in that language whose work you admire Literally anyone can write poetry. All children are born poets. But to *be* a poet, I think we can agree, past the age of say, 15, is a little more complicated. Just a little. No? Peace, Peter ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 18:05:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: comedy >poetry's been covered exstensively on this strain, tho I would add much >of Steve McCaffery's work as well. > >And perhaps ALL of the FLUXUS writers are quite vaudevillian. If it's >around, LaMonte Young's *An Anthology* is a chronical of such acute >silliness. > >Perhaps the funniest work I've read at ever is Raymond Queneau's >_Exercises in Style_ (New Directions). A great example of finding humor >in the most banal of circumstances, which I usually find more challenging >than straight stand-up "schtick". > >I tend to get carried away w/ laughter but I would go as far as to toss >people like Derrida and Baudrillard in as some of the most hilarious >theorists. > >hahe, >joshua Dear Joshua- As one of the founders of Fluxus, I would like to observe that "silly" comes from the same archaic stem (there is debate on the details) as "soul"-as we find in the German word "selig" (blessed). May all our best work have its silly aspect! Dick Higgins Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 16:38:25 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Davidson Subject: Re: Help -- George Hartley I'd like to second Hank Lazer's appeal on behalf of George Hartley. I can't imagine a more productive, active scholar than GH, and given what Hank says about his reviewers there should have been little question of a positive vote right down the line. George has written an important first book and has published significant articles in important venues. I don't know what else Iowa wants in an academic, but if he were coming up for tenure in my dept. he'd certainly get it on the strength of his very active career. I would urge others to respond to the Dean and Provost--it may be that they are out of the loop when it comes to innovative poetics and the criticism thereof. Michael Davidson At 11:08 AM 12/14/95 CST6CDT, you wrote: >Poetics Group: > >Given the tenor & topics of discussions of the past couple of weeks, >be forewarned: this message is not for everyone. It is an appeal >for help, and it involves academia and the treatment of an academic. >It's also a fairly lengthy message, and it does involve a person's >livelihood. If you've already lost interest, delete the message >now.... > >George Hartley and I have been communicating over his department's >decision (October 20th - English Department - Ohio State University) >to deny him tenure. After a series of very positive yearly reviews, >George was inexplicably voted down for tenure. As many of you on >this list may already know, George is the author of _Textual Politics and >the Language Poets_ (1989, Indiana University Press - the first book of >criticism published by an academic press on Language poetry). >George's critical writing focuses on Marxist criticism. _Textual >Politics_ includes a chapter, "Jameson's Perelman: Reification and >the Material Signifier," which takes Jameson to task. > >In addition to _Textual Politics_, George has published 12 articles >(2 of which have been republished by other journals), 6 book reviews, >and 2 lengthy poems, in addition to delivering 7 scholarly talks. He >has also nearly completed a second book (which he has been >researching and writing for the past four years--on theories of >language, representation, and ideology in Kant, Hegel, Nietzsche, and >Jameson). > >George's external evaluators were Jerry McGann, Charles Altieri, >Charles Bernstein, Robert Wess, and Michael Sprinker. While Sprinker >offered a negative evaluation, the others were very positive. >McGann, for example, concludes that Hartley would definitely have >gotten McGann's positive vote for tenure at Virginia; Altieri calls >Hartley's book on language poetry quite simply the best critical work >done on that subject. > >I know Hartley to be a dedicated teacher and a fine, passionate >thinker. I have written on _Textual Politics_ in an essay in ALH, >and Hartley's work figures in my forthcoming _Opposing Poetries_. > >George has appealed the negative departmental decision to the Dean. >I am in the process of writing a letter to George's Dean. If you are >familiar with George's work and would like to help, I suggest that >you write a letter to George's Dean. Letters need to arrive by >January 3rd. Please address your letter to the Dean and send a copy >to the provost and the president and to George. > >addresses: > >Kermit Hall, Dean of Humanities >The Ohio State University >186 University Hall >230 N. Oval Mall >Columbus, OH 43210 > >Richard Sisson, Provost >The Ohio State University >203 Bricker Hall >190 N. Oval Mall >Columbus, OH 43210 > >E. Gordon Gee, President >The Ohio State University >205 Bricker Hall >190 N. Oval Mall >Columbus, OH 43210 > >George Hartley >2023 Queensbridge Drive >Columbus, OH 43235 > >I will be glad to provide additional information as needed >back-channel ( hlazer@as.ua.edu ) so as not to clog up other Poetic >discussions. > >My apologies for this lengthy intrusion into other threads of current >discussions, but I believe that George has not been treated fairly >and that letters may help him. > >Hank Lazer > > Michael Davidson ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 01:16:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jms Subject: Re: Kink of Comedy I always think Stein is very funny. Or more recently, Kevin Davies. Juliana Spahr ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 23:25:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: short, late-night version of a long, long list.... >I'm tempted to ask the opposite question. Who today writes poems that >don't include humor? > >Ron WS Merwin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 23:25:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: o plus AR Ammons is very very unfunny, esp when trying to be funny ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 23:28:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marjorie Perloff Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 14 Dec 1995 to 15 Dec 1995 In-Reply-To: <199512160505.AAA04192@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> I want to second Aldon Nielsen's cautionary and practical note re: the very unfortunate George Hartley case. I heard about it from mutual friends at Ohio State a few weeks ago but thought I'd fill in a little background here. I believe I was largely instrumental in first getting George this job. I spoke to the chair, wrote a letter raving about the language-poetry book, etc. Not only did they hire George, they hired Jessica Prinz, my student, who has a wonderful book ART DISCOURSE, DISCOURSE ON ART that many of you will know, and she has since gotten tenure. They hired a slew of other former students and terrific young people, incl. Nancy Johnson (composition & rhetoric), Sebastian Knowles, Walter "Mac" Davis, a fine Marxist theorist, etc. This year I was asked to do a tenure case for them on Jon Erickson who does very theoretical cutting edge stuff on theatre and writes plays, performance art, etc. I wrote a very positive letter and I take it so did others--it went through. I did not know George was up for tenure this year and was not asked to write, which, now that I think of it, must mean that they didn't want me to praise him yet again (as they knew I would). So how to interpret what happened? I don't know but will try to find out. It just may be a teaching problem. But you cannot just assume that some gross injustice has been done because Ohio State English dept. (not Iowa, Michael!) is one of the most forward-looking depts I know of and they are by no means opposed to the new poetries, to materialist criticism etc. As Aldon notes, just writing letters may do more harm than good, especially if they imply that there's some kind of conspiracy afoot against George's kind of work. So I would caution people on this list about writing letters till we find out what the problem supposedly was/is. Then we can do something more concrete. Marjorie Perloff ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 00:07:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: comedy William Fuller's "byt" has some *very* dry humor in it... everyone with children is passing by the obvious! FOX IN SOCKS (if you'll allow a good bit of latitude with the term poem) still a favorite read of mine. Eryque ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 03:23:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Smith Subject: Re: printed RRR (was Iowa's secret) Ed Foster wrote: "well, maybe i'm wrong, but i think it's better to keep the price within a decent range--i.e., as low as possible--and then you'll have more readers, no small matter when the audience is about as small as the audience for any kind of book anywhere." Geez Ed! That $16.95 sticker price on Gerrit Lansing's _Heavenly Tree/Soluble Forest_ seemed a bit high compared to similar collections available from say O Books, Chax, or Listening Chamber. Glad you published it; somebody had to & I ponied up the $, but OUCH!!! all best, Charles Smith ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 05:23:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: comedy Merwin IS hilarious. He just doesn't know it. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 09:10:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: comedy In-Reply-To: from "Kevin Killian" at Dec 15, 95 08:18:08 am Kevin Killian raises the interesting (and to me sometimes troubling) question of the difference between laughing with and laughing at. Obviously one of the great political equalizers is laughter. But having just tracked through the movement from _Paradise Lost_ to _The Rape of the Lock_ to _The Visions of the Daughters of Albion_, I can't help but realize that laughter can also sound shrill and shallow and defensive when it becomes geared solely toward laughing at those who have taken the tremendous risks satirists are incapable of taking. Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 09:25:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 14 Dec 1995 to 15 Dec 1995 >I want to second Aldon Nielsen's cautionary and practical note re: the >very unfortunate George Hartley case. I heard about it from mutual >friends at Ohio State a few weeks ago but thought I'd fill in a little >background here. > >I believe I was largely instrumental in first getting George this job. I >spoke to the chair, wrote a letter raving about the language-poetry book, >etc. Not only did they hire George, they hired Jessica Prinz, my >student, who has a wonderful book ART DISCOURSE, DISCOURSE ON ART that >many of you will know, and she has since gotten tenure. They hired a >slew of other former students and terrific young people, incl. Nancy >Johnson (composition & rhetoric), Sebastian Knowles, Walter "Mac" Davis, >a fine Marxist theorist, etc. >This year I was asked to do a tenure case for them on Jon Erickson who >does very theoretical cutting edge stuff on theatre and writes plays, >performance art, etc. I wrote a very positive letter and I take it so >did others--it went through. >I did not know George was up for tenure this year and was not asked to >write, which, now that I think of it, must mean that they didn't want me >to praise him yet again (as they knew I would). >So how to interpret what happened? I don't know but will try to find >out. It just may be a teaching problem. But you cannot just assume that >some gross injustice has been done because Ohio State English dept. (not >Iowa, Michael!) is one of the most forward-looking depts I know of and >they are by no means opposed to the new poetries, to materialist >criticism etc. >As Aldon notes, just writing letters may do more harm than good, >especially if they imply that there's some kind of conspiracy afoot >against George's kind of work. So I would caution people on this list >about writing letters till we find out what the problem supposedly >was/is. Then we can do something more concrete. > >Marjorie Perloff Of course I'm not in academia these days (actually I'm about to start teaching in Sweden half each year for a while-jag talar liten svenska), and I don't like to see shop talk in the POETICS group. But I do think your advice is probably the best--let someone who knows the department check the matter out and see what is what. I remember a tenure fight at Rutgers some years ago. I asked my friend if I should do anything, write any letters? He said: "keep out of the way." I did. He won on appeal. Campaigns can backfire so easily (I've seen that happen too), because they tend to embarrass their departments and thus to involve the deans and members of the department who might otherwise have been simpatico. I keep seeing "comedy" on the menu, but when I order it I just find bibliograohy, remarks about Ammons and his ilk who are barely noticed in the real world. What theories of comedy are afoot these days in academia? I have no idea. I once ventured a theory, unsatisfactorily, and the matter interests me--but I've no idea what you folks read. Dick Higgins Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 09:38:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: printed RRR (was Iowa's secret) >Ed Foster wrote: > >"well, maybe >i'm wrong, but i think it's better to keep the price within a decent >range--i.e., as low as possible--and then you'll have more readers, no >small matter when the audience is about as small as the audience for >any kind of book anywhere." > >Geez Ed! That $16.95 sticker price on Gerrit Lansing's _Heavenly >Tree/Soluble Forest_ seemed a bit high compared to similar collections >available from say O Books, Chax, or Listening Chamber. Glad you published >it; somebody had to & I ponied up the $, but OUCH!!! > >all best, >Charles Smith Perhaps it should be required for all English Profs to take a quicky course in business. Assuming Lansing's book was printed in 1000 copies (typical) and that it cost $4500 to do, then its unit cost is $4.50. Its appropriate retail cost should therefore be between four and five times that amount--let's say $20--to cover dtore or distributor discounts, storage, shipping, warehousiung, insurance, etc. In most countries on thie earth it would be. But Lansing's book is in competition with trade publishers items, especially with their novels. American book publishers make little money on book sales in comparison with rights sales. For them the book version is therefopre apt to be only an unfortunate necessity, which one gets over with as fast as possible--and with as high numbers as possible. This last is achieved by underpricing the book. The trade book is therefore in competition with the small press or special program (poetry is a special program item when trade publishers do such things---their objective is prestige), and it forces the price down on the latter by comparison. Even so, the great unwashed (like you and me) tends to see these categories as overpriced and snob luxuries, which fits right into the RadRight accusations of "elite," when what is really going on is that the books are not subsidized by rights sales, the trade publishers' equivalent of grants. Alas-- Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 10:07:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Uncle Vanya in Reader's Digest Comments: To: Thomas Bell Comments: cc: poetics , cris cheek , MDamon9999@aol.com, lsr3h@darwin.clas.virginia.edu, jdavis@panix.com, welford@hawaii.edu, semurphy@indirect.com In-Reply-To: [with words or silences by Tom Bell, Jordan Davis, Maria Damon, Gabrielle Wellford, Cris Cheek, Lisa Samuels, Sheila Murphy, Chris Scheil, & Jorge Guitart > > > > newt of force > > too fond of > > chalk > > makes perspective dead > > > > run the pitter-patter of > > gallupatrot > > > > could never hold the temporal > > dwarf > > > > imitate walking > > > > knew i was the device > > of roundness > > > > obscuring panic > > grace > > parasol > > > > elfin gnocchi swollen > > shot pink ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 09:08:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: comedy Michael Boughn (mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca) writes: >Kevin Killian raises the interesting (and to me sometimes troubling) >question of the difference between laughing with and laughing at. >Obviously one of the great political equalizers is laughter. But >having just tracked through the movement from _Paradise Lost_ to _The >Rape of the Lock_ to _The Visions of the Daughters of Albion_, I can't >help but realize that laughter can also sound shrill and shallow and >defensive when it becomes geared solely toward laughing at those who have >taken the tremendous risks satirists are incapable of taking. And I'm thinking about this, and I have to agree. Yet I don't think "my" kind of laughter is capable of being dismissed just *because* it is shrill, defensive and shallow. There has to be a place in discourse for shrillness, shallowness and defensiveness, don't you think? They may be unpleasing to the ear, but they are the responses of a mind in extremis appalled yet impressed by the punitive nature of the insistence on the normative (by its "aura.") I don't mind playing Jerry Lewis to the insolent authority of Dean Martin (Charles Olson, Robert Duncan, etc etc); I can assert my selfhood only at the price of a continuing, humiliating dependency. As Steven Shaviro says (in *The Cinematic Body*), "Comedy in general is driven by the joint impulses of dependency and exhibitionism, with the latter both compensating for and replicating the former. Abjection is not cathartically discharged, but prolonged, sublimated and displaced by means of spectacle." Laterally: is it valuable to emphasize the polarity between "laughing at" and "laughing with"? Seems to me that every time we laugh "with" Bob Perelman, Charles Bernstein, etc., we are laughing "at" something or somebody else; and in the case of Blaser-which I think you, Michael, brought up as an example of "good" laughter-it seems plain to me that Blaser indeed is to poetry what Jerry Lewis is to the cinema-a great visionary poet of the abject, humiliated and (yes) the defensive. There are many styles of risk and his is one of the most daring, but I don't think it's particularly "sane." Thanks! Kevin Killian ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 12:08:53 -40962758 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Rosenberg Subject: Bar Codes This is a bit off topic, but since it's come up more than once now: I believe it is a myth that barcodes encode the price. Frankly, I don't know where this idea comes from. The normal procedure -- say in a grocery store -- is for the barcode to contain nothing but a product identifying code. It may look to you like the register is scanning price, but that's not what's happening. The barcode reader scans the product code, this is sent to the store's computer where it's looked up in a database, and *the database* contains the price. Prices can change whenever they need to. I believe the way the product code works is that it's in two parts: there's an agency somewhere that registers companies assigning them a company code, and then each company assigns its own code for its individual products. I'm not sure how it works for books, but I'd assume the system is similar; I'd be quite surprised if the barcode did not include the ISBN. A lot of the more sophisticated bookstores give you a register slip that shows the name of the book. Clearly that information is coming from a database. There is no reason for a barcode sticker on a book to change when a price changes. -- Jim Rosenberg http://www.well.com/user/jer/ CIS: 71515,124 WELL: jer Internet: jr@amanue.pgh.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 12:44:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "CAROLYN L. FORCHE-MATTISON" Subject: Arizona/Sheila Murphy In-Reply-To: I'm engaged in writing an introduction for an anthology of poets residing in Arizona, and have been pleased to see the inclusion of Sheila Murphy's work, but wonder if there are other poets, whom this list might recommend(?), working in innovative poetries in Arizona. While there is careful attention to ethnic/racial/cultural diversity in this particular gathering, I'm concerned that it represent the range of sensibilities as well. Please backchannel if you can help me with this. . . Thank you so much. --Carolyn ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 18:11:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: Bar Codes/comedy menu In-Reply-To: the bar code on my copy of at the roots of the stars the short plays djuna barnes has three number strings: ISBN 1-55713-160-0, 51295, and 9 781557 131607. The list price of the book is $12.95. I don't think that 51295 that sits on top of the second bar code like the words "silent pillow" on top of the column of the last issue of the impercipient are actually part of the upc but I do think it's reasonable for people to think that the price is barcoded in. and my theory of comedy is this: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 23:26:35 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Language aLive book series re: the Language aLIve series advertised here a couple of days back Pierre posted to let know that: > cris, > can't read the prices -- they translated funny into ascii, like > =3DA34.50 (uk) / =3DA35.50 (elsewhere) so - maybe he's not alone with his funny money and I'm happy to oblige - 1 issue only =A3four pounds + fifty pence (uk) / =A3five pounds + fifty penc= e (elsewhere) 2 issues =A3eight pounds (uk) / =A3ten pounds (elsewhere) 3 issues =A3eleven pounds (uk) / =A3thirteen pounds (elsewhere) 4 issues =A3fourteen pounds (uk) / =A3seventeen pounds (elsewhere) 5 issues =A3sixteen pounds (uk) / =A3eighteen pounds (elsewhere) it pays to subscribe (as they say) btw - I'm more than eager to swap. love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 18:27:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: Bar Codes/comedy menu In-Reply-To: sorry, that should read: my theory of comedy are this: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 03:08:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Landers Subject: Re: Kink of Comedy My wife and I read Don Byrd's *Great Dimestore Centennial* to each other and there were points when we were laughing tears. In fact, early in the book he says, "it's not inappropriate to laugh. If you laugh the book will wait. It has perfect timing." A friend who is a choreographer complained that people laughed at the wrong times during her work. It seems to me that laughter is not always a result of something funny. A laugh, like an "aha!", is a visceral reaction. The choreographer's or the poet's idea has made contact. The reaction is a bounce in the solar plexus. Boing! I got it! Ha-ha-ha! I want people to laugh during performances. Pete Landers landers@vivanet.com p.s. Dick, 4 or 5 times the cost? I only double. No wonder I'm broke! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 08:11:21 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Edwards <100344.2546@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Barcodes All barcodes on books encode the isbn (product identification code which enables the bookshop's computer to look up the price and deduct the item from stock). Some barcodes also themselves encode the price - and any other information the publisher wishes. You can spot this because these barcodes have an extension, whereas isbn-only barcodes are compact. Reality Street Editions' forthcoming _Out of Everywhere_ anthology will be our first title to carry a barcode. I've taken this step with reluctance, as I think barcodes are an unaesthetic intrusion on the design coherence of a book cover. Our barcode will encode isbn only - among other reasons, because we're hoping for bookshop sales in foreign countries, eg the USA and Canada, where obviously the price will be different. Incidentally, the reason why Cris' pound signs come out as gobbledygook is because ascii means "AMERICAN standard code for information interchange". In other words, the dollar sign is an ascii character, the pound sign is not. (The yen sign isn't even on my keyboard.) Cultural imperialism rules! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 08:23:44 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ward Tietz <100723.3166@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Gomringer, concrete poetry & humor Some of the comments of the last few days on comedy in poetry have seemed to point to the role of context in humor. It reminded me of Eugen Gomringer's reading / lecture here in Geneva a few months ago at the sound poetry festival. What was amazing about it was how charming it all was. Gomringer's reading was preceded by a short documentary on concrete poetry that was aired on Swiss television some 30 years ago. It was very formal and the rhetoric was rather didactic. A lot of the theoretical and aesthetic pronouncements seemed even a little silly in today's context, but as the evening unfolded it became clear that the documentary was in fact the perfect pre-text in contrast to what came next. Gomringer's reading followed and it was brilliant, as were his descriptions of the individual concrete poems that were projected up on the screen. It was all amazingly funny, but in a way I have never quite seen at any poetry reading. Concrete poetry has been criticized for being somewhat corny and overly reliant on puns. In the performative dimension though, in this context, it was charming in the full sense of the word "charm." Ward Tietz Rte de St. Cergue 48a CH-1260 Nyon Switzerland ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 09:53:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: Kink of Comedy >My wife and I read Don Byrd's *Great Dimestore Centennial* to each other and >there were points when we were laughing tears. In fact, early in the book he >says, "it's not inappropriate to laugh. If you laugh the book will wait. It >has perfect timing." > >A friend who is a choreographer complained that people laughed at the wrong >times during her work. It seems to me that laughter is not always a result of >something funny. > >A laugh, like an "aha!", is a visceral reaction. The choreographer's or the >poet's idea has made contact. The reaction is a bounce in the solar plexus. >Boing! I got it! Ha-ha-ha! > >I want people to laugh during performances. > >Pete Landers >landers@vivanet.com > >p.s. Dick, 4 or 5 times the cost? I only double. No wonder I'm broke! Dear Pete- Well, that's how the trade publisahers figure it-I know because I have worked for them. And of course the Wallace Foundation and CLMP people reflect trade publisher perspectives--"Let 'em eat caKE." I don't think they want us out of business, but they do not understand what business we are in-the business of disseminating new work and ideas, in which our only survival strategy is to generate gigs which will pay, since the books will not sell enough to do so even at a forced subsidized price. Grim reflection for a pleasant Sunday. Bests Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 08:59:14 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Kink of Comedy here's to second pete landers' remarks re don byrd's _the great dimestore centennial_... it's not just funny---don's sense of humor is dead serious... laughter can almost hurt when this is the case... my favorite section is the final book, "the book of the lighthouse"... joe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 08:02:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: at the risk of >Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 05:23:27 -0800 >From: Ron Silliman >Subject: Re: comedy > >Merwin IS hilarious. He just doesn't know it. at the risk of sending sparks flying, this would imply wouldn't it that Jung is also quite the jokester. A proposition w which I have no problem Tenney ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 14:07:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Writer Wanted for "Writer's Almanac" Radio Show ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 14:30:13 -0500 (EST) From: John Pearson Subject: Re: job posting Thanks for contacting me about our need for assistance for the Writer's Almanac program with Garrison Keillor. I'd be most gratified if you posted something to your subscribers about the need; what follows is a description of the situation. Interested individuals can email me directly. ----------------------------- The Writer's Almanac is a nationally broadcast program produced by Minnesota Public Radio that is hosted by Garrison Keillor. A new program is aired each day of the week on public radio stations. It includes historic and contemporary tidbits of the day along with the reading of a poem. The program is seeking support for research and script-writing. The show uses seven scripts a week, each about 2.5 minutes long. We may be setting this position up as a freelance activity in which we might use more than a writer or two. Pay would be reasonable but not lucrative. Scripts can be emailed to our headquarters in St. Paul. It would be important for the writer(s) to be able to hear the show on a regular basis (we may put parts of it on the Internet at some time, but that's a few months (or more) off!). If you wish to apply, we would like three sample Writer's Almanac scripts along with a resume and cover letter. (If a script you wrote was aired we would compensate you.) In the scripts we would be looking for a demonstration of depth of research, editor's eye to select the 'right' elements for the almanac entries, and the ability to write a script that is sympathetic to Garrison's delivery and current script style. For more information or to submit an application, email me: jpearson@mpr.org ------------------------------ John Pearson jpearson@mpr.org Minnesota Public Radio tel: 612-290-1404 45 East Seventh St., St. Paul, MN 55101 fax: 612-290-1260 http://www. mnonline.org/mpr ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 14:17:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: West Coast LIne (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 22:14:53 -0600 (CST) From: peter quartermain The most recent issue of WEST COAST LINE (#17, Fall 1995), guest edited by Peter Quartermain, contains 100 pages of recent British and Irish writing by Tony Baker, Richard Caddel, Miles Champion, Cris Cheek, Ken Edwards, Allen Fisher, Harry Gilonis, Alan Halsey, Randolph healy, Paul Holman, Peter Middleton, Billy Mills, Geraldine Monk, Maggie O'Sullivan, Bridget Penney, Peter Riley, Maurice Scully, Robert Sheppard, Colin Simms, Geoffrey Squires, Ian Stephen and Catherine Walsh, PLUS "A Gathering for Robin Blaser" with work from Charles Bernstein, Rachel Blau DuPlessis, Kevin Killian, Michele Leggott, Leslie Scalapino, Daphne Marlatt, Michael McClure, David Levi Straus, Jed Rasula, and Robert Hullot-Kentor, plus reviews of Norma Cole, Rosmarie Waldrop, Sau-Ling Cynthia Wong, King-Kok Cheung and Clayton Eshleman. Anabatic for Horace by Bob Cobbing. Full colour cover by Maggie O'Sullivan. All 172 pages for a mere $10.00 PLUS $2.50 postage, from West Coast Line, 2027 East Academic Annex, Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada V5A 1S6. Supplies are limited. Subscriptions $30.00 a year (three issues) ($45.00 for institutions). --------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Quartermain 128 East 23rd Avenue Voice and fax (604) 876 8061 Vancouver e-mail Quarterm@unixg.ubc.ca BC Canada V5V 1X2 --------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 15:24:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: Comedy Kevin: I don't think your laughter should be dismissed, either, and I apologize if that's how my post came across. It is much more complex than my simplistic dichotomy (with or at) allows for. You're right about that. For example, I know that my daughter needs to be able to laugh at her father. Every child needs that. More importantly, every parent, whether they admit it or not, needs to be laughed at. As the object of that laughter (which is much more bearable now than it was 6 years ago when it cut to the quick) I need to be able to honor it, which keeps me honest, but at the same time not to take it too seriously (ha! taking laughter seriously, that's a good one). It's something to do with what I see as the weirdness or mystery of authority, that we (authors especially) both must have it, but also constantly divest ourselves of it. What you refer to as Jerry Lewis is after all not Jerry Lewis but the creation of a successful and wealthy performer who, if he were as abject as all that, wouldn't be able to open his mouth publicly. Perhaps it's the inflection that's the issue. The two poems you mention are very important poems to me, and though I can laugh at Robert Duncan and Charles Olson for occasionally taking things (themselves) too seriously, that laughter is always inflected with deep gratitude and love for the immeasurable gifts they gave me, and the risks they took to do that. Robin Blaser taught me that. (Charles Boer's _Charles Olson in Connecticut_ seems to me a marvelous book precisely because, unlike Tom Clark's, it manages to catch that complexity in the complexity of its laughter.) Best, Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 15:32:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Ontopoetics Peter: I think you changed the question, which as I recall was originally "how do you know if you're a poet," as opposed to "what makes a poet." If I were to be asked that question today, I think my response would probably be: "the same way the garbageman knows he's a garbageman." Best, Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 15:52:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Re: Uncle Vanya in Reader's Digest [with words or silences by Tom Bell, Jordan Davis, Maria Damon, Gabrielle Wellford, Cris Cheek, Lisa Samuels, Sheila Murphy, Chris Scheil, & Jorge Guitart > > > > newt of force > > too fond of > > chalk > > makes perspective dead > > > > run the pitter-patter of > > gallupatrot > > > > could never hold the temporal > > dwarf > > > > imitate walking > > > > knew i was the device > > of roundness > > > > obscuring panic > > grace > > parasol > > > > elfin gnocchi swoll > > shot pink > > blue nevi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 16:07:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Re: Don of Comedy Don Byrd gives great reading. I broke down laughing when he read the line: x-7 was in the corner. And here feared it. Where is that from? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 16:05:00 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Don of Comedy bill, that's don's _the great dimestore centennial again_, though the line you're thinking of methinks is a bit different, from the penultimate book, "the book of the sun, the book of man (complete)"... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 17:28:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: Kink of Comedy >My wife and I read Don Byrd's *Great Dimestore Centennial* to each other an= d >there were points when we were laughing tears. In fact, early in the book h= e >says, "it's not inappropriate to laugh. If you laugh the book will wait. It >has perfect timing." > >A friend who is a choreographer complained that people laughed at the wrong >times during her work. It seems to me that laughter is not always a result = of >something funny. > >A laugh, like an "aha!", is a visceral reaction. The choreographer's or the >poet's idea has made contact. The reaction is a bounce in the solar plexus. >Boing! I got it! Ha-ha-ha! > >I want people to laugh during performances. > >Pete Landers >landers@vivanet.com > >p.s. Dick, 4 or 5 times the cost? I only double. No wonder I'm broke! Dear Pete- On top of that there is part of "cost of doing business" known as "cost of doing an invoice." Please see my reply to Charles Smith, who accuses me, perhaps correctly but certainly unintentionally, of being on a high horse with him (though know him I don't). But as I see it, any remarks we make on these exchanges are, however, not just addressed personally to each other but to fellow participants in the overall exchange, so they shouldn't usually be taken personally. Anyway, I've sent off my remarks to him on doing an invoice and what all this means in terms of what we EXPECT TO PAY vs. what we would NEED TO PAY if all costs were reflected in the price of a book. I do not have access to Lansing's book which Smith finds so overpriced, but I suspect the publisher was attempting to recoup his costs without eying the competition and market, na=EFve perhaps but certainly understandable. Very bests Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:41:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: Re: Bar Codes >This is a bit off topic, but since it's come up more than once now: > >I believe it is a myth that barcodes encode the price. Frankly, I don't know >where this idea comes from. The normal procedure -- say in a grocery store -- >is for the barcode to contain nothing but a product identifying code. It >may look to you like the register is scanning price, but that's not what's >happening. The barcode reader scans the product code, this is sent to the >store's computer where it's looked up in a database, and *the database* >contains the price. Prices can change whenever they need to. I believe the >way the product code works is that it's in two parts: there's an agency >somewhere that registers companies assigning them a company code, and then >each company assigns its own code for its individual products. > >I'm not sure how it works for books, but I'd assume the system is similar; I'd >be quite surprised if the barcode did not include the ISBN. A lot of the more >sophisticated bookstores give you a register slip that shows the name of the >book. Clearly that information is coming from a database. > >There is no reason for a barcode sticker on a book to change when a price >changes. > >-- > Jim Rosenberg http://www.well.com/user/jer/ > CIS: 71515,124 > WELL: jer > Internet: jr@amanue.pgh.net I've done some initial enquiries about placing barcodes on titles AWOL distributes (most small press books don't have barcodes and a number of bookshops have told me that they will not take t tles which are not barcoded). From what I've been told by bookshops and the ABPA (Australian Book Publishers Association) the barcode contains the ISBN and product description. When the barcode is scanned it is matched to a record in a data base where the price is recorded. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 18:02:19 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "D. LaBeau" Subject: Re: Arizona/Sheila Murphy In-Reply-To: On Sat, 16 Dec 1995, CAROLYN L. FORCHE-MATTISON wrote: > I'm engaged in writing an introduction for an anthology of poets > residing in Arizona, and have been pleased to see the inclusion of > Sheila Murphy's work, but wonder if there are other poets, whom this > list might recommend(?), working in innovative poetries in Arizona. > While there is careful attention to ethnic/racial/cultural diversity > in this particular gathering, I'm concerned that it represent the range > of sensibilities as well. Please backchannel if you can help me with > this. . . > Check out Rebecca Byrkit's poetry. She has a collection, Zealand, out from Sun/Gemini Press. Not language poetry but very innovative. She teaches in Tucson. Also, Lisa Cooper, who I think still lives in Arizona, has some great things out from Chax Press. Daniel LaBeau ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 19:31:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: FUNKHOUSER CHRISTOPH Subject: comedy Remember the early part of the year when the poetics list had some really comical moments? The AHP said: > > I was either reading Tjanting in an airport (strange since I haven't > actually even seen this book). It was a really difficult text, and there > were rhymed parts to it like a Charlie Bernstein piece. I think the > poem had the f-word and the word love in it a lot. The airport was > designed in a Russian sort of way with old people selling flavored > vodka out of shopping carts. The really strange thing about this > dream is how Silliman looked on the cover of the book. He had on a > dress and I think he had something like glitter in his beard. He had > his arms raised in a pose like Patti Smith on the cover of Easter and I > saw that like Patti he hadn't shaved his armpits, and the hair was > dyed green, like Dennis Rodman. He seemed happy. Strange dream, > eh? Just thought I'd pass that along, and give everyone the chance to > play armchair Freud. My analysis: I was thinking about dyeing my > hair last night, which is where the unshaved, green armpits come in. > -for those who weren't around then, check the EPC archives-- feb. '95, i think. (btw, this passage also shows up in Bill Luoma's bio on the little magazine cd-rom) Hopefully it's ok to add: Hakim Bey rages (then again, that's poetic terrorism, not poetry, right?), &, without question, some of Nate Mackey's prose is *hilarious* - Eileen Myles checks in w/some terrific (sardonic?) humor too. &, naturally, there will always be a few underinformed people who think language poetry is some kind of twisted joke... h h h ! lastly, if you haven't checked it out, DIU (Descriptions of an Imaginary Universe) might be of interest to anyone on this list. the annals of this ancient electronic poetry newsletter contain some riotously funny moments (to boot, Michael Joyce has said it is "the best thing on the Internet"). Check out the new issue (#32), just out today, with Edgar Allen Poe's write-up of Ted Pearson. http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/ezines/diu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 21:51:10 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: printed RRR (was Iowa's secret) the point is, that shortrun books are expensive to produce. actual printing cost vary widely by region--i just had a 144 page book quoted at $2100 for 1000 copies--so i wouldn't want to quibble w/ the numbers others have given... but the actual printing bill is far from the whole story. design costs, promotion, postage, mailing envelopes, free copies to reviewers & collegues, all add up to significant costs. charles breaks down one example in his "Provisional Institutions" essay (i'll append the section for those w/out access to the EPC). the actual numbers would be very different for Burning Press (Sun&Moon is obviously much more businesslike), but the upshot is the same. "bottom line": no-one is making any significant $$ publishing poetry, at $6 or $20 per copy. lbd burning press/trr au462@cleveland.freenet.edu ===== from: "Provisional Institutions: Alternative Presses and Poetic Innovation" http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/bernstein/provisional ===== Print-runs at Sun & Moon go from 1000 to 2000, depending, of course, on likely sales. Messerli notes that print-runs of less than 1000 drive the unit cost up too high and he encourages other literary presses to print a minimum of 1000 copies if at all possible. Sun & Moon titles are well-produced, perfectbound, and offset with full color covers. The printing bill for this runs from $2600 to $4000 as you go from 1000 to 2000 copies. Messerli estimates the cost of editing a 100-page poetry book at $300: this covers all the work between the press receiving a manuscript and sending it to a designer (including any copyeding and proofreading that may be necessary as well as preparation of front and back matter and cover copy). Typesetting is already a rarity for presses like Sun & Moon, with authors expected to provide computer disks wherever possible. Formatting these disks (converting them into type following specifications of the book designer) can cost anywhere from $300 to $1000, one of those variable labor costs typical of small press operations. The book designer will charge about $500. The cover will cost an additional $100 for photographic reproduction or permission fees or both. Publicity costs must also be accounted for, even if, as at Sun & Moon, no advertising is involved. Messerli estimates publicity costs at $1500, which covers the cost of something like 100 free copies distributed to reviewers, postage and packing, mailings and catalog pages, etc. The total cash outlay here, then, for 2000 copies, is around $6800. (For the sake of this discussion, overhead costs -- rent, salaries, office equipment, phone bills, etc -- are not included; such costs typically are estimated at about 30 percent more than the cost of production). If all goes well, Sun & Moon will sell out of its print run in two years. Let's say Sun & Moon prints 2000 copies of the book and charges $10 retail; let's also say all the books were sold. That makes a gross of $20,000. Subtract from this a 50 percent wholesale discount (that is, most bookstores will pay $5 for the book) and that leaves $10,000. Subtract from this the 24 percent that Sun & Moon's distributor takes (and remember that most small presses are too small to secure a distributor with a professional sales force). That leaves $7600. Now last, but not to be totally forgotten, especially since I am a Sun & Moon author, the poet's royalty; typically no advance would be paid and the author would receive 10 percent of this last figure, or $760. That leaves $6840 return to the publisher on a cash cost of about $7000. Charles Bernstein [Later published in the _Arizona Quarterly_ 51, no. 1 (Spring 1995): 133-146] ===== ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 10:38:41 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "William M. Northcutt" Subject: Slinger And why isn't Slinger funny anymore? A serious question I ask you who said so, as I sit here with my duck Helen Vendler who's rolling a dove-tail joint and trying to read Charles Bernstein aloud to me. ------------------------------------------------------------ William Northcutt Englische Literaturwissenschaft Universitaet Bayreuth 95440 Bayreuth Germany william.northcutt@uni-bayreuth.de fax:(921)553641 ----------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 02:24:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Bark Odes Dick Higgins writes I do not have access to Lansing's book which Smith finds so overpriced, but I suspect the publisher was attempting to recoup his costs without eying the competition and market, naive perhaps but certainly understandable. --------------------- Well, it's worth every penny. As is any book by Gerrit Lansing. Although a fair portion (20 percent perhaps) of the poems here were also included in the North Atlantic Books edition of 1979 (which carries its price on its cover, pre-bar code days, as $4.00). Which brings up some other points. First, to this eye (these eyes), it would seem that this is a new "selected" poems, tho Bertholf in his blurb states plainly "Gerrit Lansing has been writing a single, serial poem since he began writing more than thirty-five years ago." If that is to be taken literally (for there certainly is a non-literal way in which that is true of us all). Is this in fact to be read as a "single poem of many parts" and, if so, what of the missing parts? Also, since Lansing still produces work that, in his own version of a projective heritage, profoundly utilizes its sense of visual shape on the page, I'm surprised, comparing these two texts, at how the rounded 10 point Navarro softens, almost occludes, that element of the poem compared with the 10 point Palatino of the earlier book (Navarro's letters are not only more rounded, but its lines very thin, its seriphs minimalized almost out of existence), which I note is credited as "Composition and design by Barrett Watten." The North Atlantic edition has a slightly larger page (half and inch taller, half an inch wider) and a 127 pages just over half the size of the Talisman House, Publishers edition (I like that quirky comma, Ed). Often, when I buy I a collected I've sold off the smaller, earlier books from which it was constructed--largely in self-defense given the absolute limit of space one's house presents for a library--but in this case, owning one seems to make the other all the more dear, each volume illumines the other. Not having bought the recent Transbluency (if I have that title right) of Jones/Baraka, I wonder how it differs from the late 70s Selected Poems of LeRoi Jones/Amiri Baraka that Morrow did, beyond say the Vangelisti intro (an odd choice for same?). Comments? Ron Silliman rsillima@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 03:00:57 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Slinger William Northcutt asks a good question: > >And why isn't Slinger funny anymore? I wasn't the one who originally said so, but I must say I've flip flopped on this work a number of times over the years. I recall when I first heard the opening sections of it (read aloud by Woody Haut from photocopied mss pages in the long-ago torn down student cafteria @ SF State) I had an almost allergic negative reaction, simply (I suspect) because it so willfully (gleefully) abandoned many of the presumptions of projective verse, not because it was funny as such (Olson's Maximus is full of humor and the persona itself often seems like an eight-foot version of Professor Irwin Corey, if you remember that 50s and 60s era comic (whom Pynchon once sent to accept an award on his behalf)) so much as because it dealt with actual, living pop culture, present day materials in a way that the hallowed sense of Material (whether in Olson's archival sense or, say, as Duncan treats the University of California regents in Passages, a coins for an eternal process of evil) seemed not to permit. Olson & Duncan in particular propose the poet as a fairly serious shaman, counterbalanced as they were by O'Hara, Whalen et al. Later I would realize all the ways in which what Dorn did showed the limitations in projective verse, in many ways a more radical critique say than those made by Spicer precisely for having been inside the frame for as long as he was. (And one of the great stories of Projective Verse must be the dramatic ways in which Dorn, Baraka & to a lesser degree Levertov all very publically abandoned the project.) But as the books came forward, or didn't, it also became clear that this comic book mode of scribing the end of philosophy was, as a narrative project (and as a project it saw itself as narrative in very profound ways), ultimately doomed. As a work, the book dissolves.... Since then of course, I've been saddened at the little squiblets of notebook that have come forth as the last quarter century's worth of work by Dorn, and appalled at the Babbitry of some of his editorial commitments and comments, including (tho not limited to) publishing Clark's homophobic AIDs stuff. I suppose it don't help that he says in an interview somewhere that he doesn't need to read the language poets because Tom Clark tells him all he needs to know (!) So when I go back to those gorgeously crafted and witty lines of Book I, I can't read them innocently anymore. These stanzas are the work of a man destroying himself as a poet. Where is the humor in that? Ron Silliman rsillima@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:41:35 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: hartley-tenure case Thanks for various replies--front & back-channel--regarding George Hartley's tenure case. I wanted to reply specifically to the cautions offered by Marjorie Perloff, Aldon Nielsen, and George Higgins. Of course, you are right: letters that suggest a conspiracy or that suggest that Ohio State's English dept did an awful job would not help. They would be counter-productive. I would value any additional information about the decision itself, its basis. George claims not to know why the decision was made in the negative. He offered some speculations (which I have relayed once or twice back- channel...). So, Marjorie, if you do find out some pertinent information, please let me know. Even so, I do think that letters may be of some limited help. I say this as an assistant dean who reads and makes recommendations on many tenure & promotion files each year. Marjorie, Aldon, and George are correct to urge some caution. And we should also remember that we do not have access to the complete file, and thus we cannot write letters that pretend to be a thorough review of the file itself nor of the process of decision-making. What I had in mind was more limited in scope and intent. First, letters can help buoy George's spirits. Second, letters can help the Dean and others to realize that George's work is read, respected, and of consequence. I plan to write a letter based on what I know--George's work--not one based on what I don't know (ie the decision-making process and the politics of the department). And we still do have time to learn a little more about the case. Finally, the most likely avenue for reversing the department's decision will not be our letters but the appearance of some new compelling evidence in the case--such as an acceptance of George's second book-manuscript (which is currently being considered by a major academic press). Deans and others are more likely to respond favorably to new information than to letters from the morally or aesthetically outraged. Perhaps if you feel that a letter to the Dean would be counter- productive, you might consider writing a note to George. Thanks to each of you for your thoughts about George's case. Hank Lazer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 11:09:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Slinger Dear Ron--thanks for your thoughtful mini-essay on Dorn's career... Of course, maybe to view SLINGER as central to what he's about is part of the problem of judging him---perhaps like judging Shakespeare in terms of Aristotlean unities!--- "But when the books came, forward, or didn't, it became clear that this comic book mode of describing the end of philosophy as a narrative project was ultimately doomed...." Interesting, but doomed more than POUND? Or just realizing the same mistake pound realized earlier? I mean earlier than POUND? And perhaps the tension between the comic book and the narrative is at least as productive as say bruce andrews? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 11:21:49 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Keith Tuma Subject: Re: Slinger In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 18 Dec 1995 11:09:32 -0500 from So we're casting stones (not the first) at Dorn's Slinger? Is "America" still funny if its poet has only a few keys left on his squeeze- box? Is Katherine Dunn's _Geek Love_ still satire after Waco? Is the "new sentence" still new if it describes an old "period"? It's laughter. It depends on your side. --Chicken-House Willie's friend, Helen Vendler ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:51:14 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: disn dat In-Reply-To: <199512180504.AAA16025@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> well, there's some hope in this world -- I see that my local Tower Records store has copies of a Kevin Killian book on prominent display in their recently expanded book dept. alond with the five shelves of Rollins (NOT Sonny) and the ten of Bukowski -- Kevin, I was never so glad to see you! Maybe someone who knows the particulars of George's situation at Ohio State could quietly fill in those of us who show up at the Sun & Moon or Millenium gatherings in Chicago next week??? and then we could talk about how we might be of help ? aloing alond along -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 14:32:29 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ward Tietz <100723.3166@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Gomringer, concrete poetry & humor Robert, thanks for the request for more info on the sound poetry festival in Geneva. For the last several years it has been organized by Vincent Barras, who, along with Nicholas Zurbrugg, edited a book of essays and interviews entitled Poesies Sonores (in French) in 1992 (Editions Contrechamps, ISBN 2-940068-00-3). Anyway, two evenings are usually programmed each year for Poesie Sonore as part of the larger several week-long Festival de Geneve in late August / early September. This year's festival was not strictly about sound poetry since it was loosely structured around Gomringer and concrete poetry, which still seems to be not very well known in French-speaking Europe. Last year's festival ('94) was a combination rock/homage to William Burroughs' via phone link, featuring John Giorno and others. The year before ('93) the theme was musical, with emphasis on the voice. Paul Dutton, Trevor Wishart, and David Moss performed as well as Eric and Marc Hurtado (Etant Donnes). Each year there are also talks, some performance pieces (I did one with Guenter Ruch two years ago using large, 3-D letters), and usually some contemporary compositions. For anyone interested, Vincent Barras can be contacted at 48 ch. de Carabot, CH-1213 Onex-Geneva, Switzerland. So how is sound poetry doing in Europe? Probably better than in North America, where a lot of interesting work is doubtless being done, but probably under the more general rubric of performance. The term sound poetry supposes a relation to literature that performance doesn't have, but it has never been completely clear what this distinction accomplishes, except to establish a polemic vis-a-vis literature. In other words, the question has always been is sound poetry poetry? Ward Tietz rte. de St. Cergue, 48a CH-1260 Nyon Switzerland ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 16:51:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Re: Slinger doorne looses if he hasn't read ketjak. but slinger thumbs out of 20th c lit just as ketjak, just as spring et al, kora in hell. ketjak gets more amazing in its strangeness and isolation as the years go by (& we're approaching 20. let's have a party when it turns). Bill Luoma ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 17:09:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rae Armantrout Subject: calling Loss Dear Loss, I've lost your e mail address and, more importantly, your ground address. I have something to send you now for EPC. Let me know once more where to send it. Rae Armantrout ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 17:08:58 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: Bark Odes [Lansing's work]...>profoundly utilizes its sense of visual shape on >the page, I'm surprised, comparing these two texts, at how the rounded >10 point Navarro softens, almost occludes, that element of the poem >compared with the 10 point Palatino of the earlier book (Navarro's >letters are not only more rounded, but its lines very thin, its seriphs >minimalized almost out of existence)... always glad to see awareness of the visual element of poetry- on-the-page, which always seems to be to be a factor, even in poetry that is not as visually oriented as, say, concrete work. cheers for the appreciation of a well-designed book! lbd ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 23:52:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: working bibliography Found this in the outgoing mailbox, must've meant to add a few more. Any case, compliments to both these listers-- Susan Schultz (ed.)-- _The Tribe of John: Ashbery and Contemporary Poetry_ U. Alabama Press. Contributors include Charles Altieri, Charels Bernstein, George Bradley, Bonnie Costello, John Ernest, John Gery, John Koethe, James McCorkle, Stephen Paul Miller, Fred Moramarco, Jonathan Morse, Donald Revell, Andrew Ross, and John Shoptaw. $28.95 pb. A.L. Nielsen's two U. Georgia books, _Writing Between the Lines: Race & Intertextuality_ ($45 hc) and _Reading Race: White American Poets and the Racial Discourse in the Twentieth Century_ ($12.95 pb). --Rod ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 00:06:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Can You Hear, Bird I wholeheartedly believe the new Ashbery, _Can You Hear, Bird_ is durn terrific-- curious what others think. "Do not go into Hawaii./ Even the price tags are afraid." That the beginning of a poem called "Gladys Palmer." Seems his styles have become even smoother, even more permeable, while remaining reflexive, entertaining. --Rod ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 21:30:18 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: SPT newletter reviews I know this isn't the best time to post this since many of you are on your winter break, but Small Press Traffic is going to be featuring Chax Press and Talisman House in its next newsletter. Anyone who is interested in doing *very brief* reviews (200-300 words) of any of the books published by these presses, please contact me. A list of the books follows. Thanks. Dodie Bellamy CHAX PRESS >Kathleen Fraser, When New Time Folds Up >Norman Fischer, Precisely the Point Being Made >Nathaniel Tarn, Caja del Rio >Rosmarie Waldrop, Fan Poem for Deshika >Nathaniel Mackey, Outlantish >Ron Silliman, Demo to Ink >Beverly Dahlen, A Reading 8 =F1 10 >Gil Ott, Wheel >Karen Mac Cormack, Quirks & Quillets >Sheila Murphy, Teth >bp Nichol, Art Facts: A Book of Contexts >Larry Evers & Felipe S. Molina, Coyote Songs >Mei-mei Berssenbrugge, Mizu >Charles Alexander, Hopeful Buildings >Lyn Hejinian & Kit Robinson, Individuals >Eli Goldblatt, Sessions >John Randolph Hall, Zootaxy >Jackson Mac Low, French Sonnets TALISMAN HOUSE Dodie Bellamy/Sam D'Allesandro, Real William Bronk, The Mild Day William Bronk, Our Selves William Bronk, Manifest; And Furthermore Joseph Donahue, World Well Broken Edward Foster, ed., Postmodern Poetry Mark Jacobs, A Cast of Spaniards Stephen Jonas, Selected Poems Gerrit Lansing, Heavenly Tree/ Soluble Forest Alice Notley, Selected Poems Simon Pettet, Selected Poems Jack Spicer, The Tower of Babel Gustaf Sobin, By the Bias of Sound Schwartz, Donahue, and Foster, eds., Primary Trouble: An Anthology of Contemporary American Poetry ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 09:45:28 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "William M. Northcutt" Subject: Re: Slinger I suppose since I know nothing about Dorn outside of his early work, Slinger remains enjoyable to me. It may be that it's dated, but as I read it the last time, I thought about how easy it would be to replace Howard Hughes with Rupert Murdock or Ted "Can I Get a Witness" Turner--that is, whatever Dorn thinks, believes now doesn't change what is radical in Slinger. And as for Pound, there has been a lot of work over the last decades pointing out what a fascist he was--true, but that doesn't change the fact that there's a lot of kicking against the pricks in the early Cantos. My duck Helen Vendler likes especially to roll big doobs while reading Cantos XIV, XV and XXVII Chicken House Willie ------------------------------------------------------------ William Northcutt Englische Literaturwissenschaft Universitaet Bayreuth 95440 Bayreuth Germany william.northcutt@uni-bayreuth.de fax:(921)553641 ----------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 05:16:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Landers Subject: Re: Slinger Mon, 18 Dec 1995 Ron Silliman wrote: > >William Northcutt asks a good question: >> >>And why isn't Slinger funny anymore? > [snip] > >...I had an almost allergic negative reaction, simply (I suspect) >because it so willfully (gleefully) abandoned many of the presumptions >of projective verse, ... [snip] > >Later I would realize all the ways in which what Dorn did showed the >limitations in projective verse, ... In my own pursuit of the Black Mountain poets, I tried out Dorn because he was the recipient of the Projective Verse letter. It was obvious, however, that he never did get the point. [snip > >But as the books came forward, or didn't, it also became clear that >this comic book mode of scribing the end of philosophy was, as a >narrative project (and as a project it saw itself as narrative in very >profound ways), ultimately doomed. As a work, the book dissolves.... Because, of course, philosophy is alive and well in the works of William Bronk, yourself, Charles Stein, etc. I don't want to continue the list or someone may think it's my (gasp!) top ten list. I'm glad the people who call themselves philosophers have abandoned the field to us. It was ours in the first place, and they never managed to steal it, even in Goethe's day. > >Since then of course, I've been saddened at the little squiblets of >notebook that have come forth as the last quarter century's worth of >work by Dorn, and appalled at the Babbitry of some of his editorial >commitments and comments, including (tho not limited to) publishing >Clark's homophobic AIDs stuff. I suppose it don't help that he says in >an interview somewhere that he doesn't need to read the language poets >because Tom Clark tells him all he needs to know (!) My own objection to that last-named person is the similarity of his name to the (how else to say it) *wonderful* Thomas A. Clark. I asked Dorn about the AIDS nonsense (in which he and Tom Clark propose infecting certain people with AIDS) and he got angry, denied writing it, and shouted, "It was just a joke!" Years later, I still have trouble with Slinger. I can't see his statements as other than pompous. And as for the rest? Maybe some fan of Ed Dorn should come to his defense. It does nothing for me. Is anything really a joke when no one but the teller is laughing? Pete Landers landers@vivanet.com another p.s. for Dick: So foew&... cost more than $2.50 each to make, eh? You had me going. Thanks for the advice, though. I've already decided that all capital invested must be given up for lost (a stance my partner doesn't appreciate.) BTW, that choreographer I mentioned carries that book around in her backpack. Will she ever return it? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:49:08 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: desire / and the 39 steps Comments: cc: Edward Foster fell cycles, jack the boy dull from his empty net an imitation coin. on realigning scented letters claim this waxing scheme re-plateaud saccarine. each purpose as tattooed between our breathing skins a frosting pain her energising spleen. from plunge. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 03:51:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Thomas A. Clark Pete Landers brings up a good point, the unfortunate coincidence of names between a certain grumpy westcoast bookreviewer and pseudobiographer (my fave is not the Olson bio, which shows curiously little interest in the poetry, but the "as-told-to" autobio of Mark 'The Bird' Fydrich some years back--say, how come the Baseball Encyclopedia doesn't include bibliographies for each player?) and that tremendous British poet, Thomas A. Clark, someone who has always struck me as not nearly published nor distributed widely enough. Four of the seven books of his I own are too small to be perfect bound, one -- a beautiful sequence called Cries of the Poor -- appears simply to have been typed and stapled. Examples: From _The *Pocket* Glade Dictionary_ Bird A small feathered verterbrate. The fore limbs are modified into wings fitted for flight. It has a four-chambered heart which inspires it to sallies of caprice and volatility. Deer A type of after-image caused by spots of light penetrating the dense foliage of the wood. The illusion of an insubstantial presence occasioned by a breath of wind among the grasses. Flower The best of anything. A figure of speech. An ornament of style. (NB. The above poems are printed as "centered" prose paragraphs, one to a page) From _Cries of the Poor_ A young female child calling at a house in London, selling matches. * A female street-seller, somewhere in London, with matches and save-alls in her hands and a large basket of stock on her right arm. * A well known elderly lady, wearing a much-patched coat,with a large basket of matches on her left arm and a staff in her right hand. * A London street-seller, in an extremely ragged costume, holding bundles of matches fanned out in a manner devised by himself. * A poor woman who has for years been subject to the misfortune of having only one leg, one eye, and one toe. * A man selling matches at the front at Brighton. (NB: again, the above printed one to a page in my edition) I only met Thomas A. Clark once, when he was honeymooning in the States in '73. A modest, brilliant young man. Ron Silliman rsillima@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 07:49:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: Slinger In-Reply-To: <9512190845.AA07268@btr0x1.hrz.uni-bayreuth.de> from "William M. Northcutt" at Dec 19, 95 09:45:28 am > And as > for Pound, there has been a lot of work over the last decades pointing out > what a fascist he was--true, but that doesn't change the fact that there's a > lot of kicking against the pricks in the early Cantos. > > Chicken House Willie > Too true. And for those of us who have come to realize that the evil is not all "out there", the Pisan Cantos remain among the most terrific and moving poetry of the mid-century. Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 08:31:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: Slinger In-Reply-To: from "Landers" at Dec 19, 95 05:16:10 am > Years later, I still have trouble with Slinger. I can't see his > statements as other than pompous. And as for the rest? Maybe some fan of > Ed Dorn should come to his defense. It does nothing for me. > > Is anything really a joke when no one but the teller is laughing? If Dorn chose to play post-Modern Pope to Olson's post-Modern Milton, I say more power to him. Part of the problem is no one reads Pope these days, or Milton, so who's going to measure that achievment? As for Dorn's "squibs", _Abhorrences_ is among the most brilliant political poetry in the satirical tradition produced in the depths of the current Political Reaction. Free Market Chinoiserie There will never be enough BMWs for the stated Billion, there will never even be enough paper towel or gas barbeques or ever enough ribs or sauce for those short ribs. There will never be enough coupons to clip or scissors to clip them with--and there will never be enough accountants to count it all or paper to keep the accounts on or discs to store the accounts for which there will never be entries enough. Someone should tell them. Why is everyone so anxious to bind up the world with their unforgiving moralistic judgements (that's NOT funny and you're going to poet's hell for your bad taste), masquerading plain old bad blood behind a facade of aesthetic and political theory? Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 07:58:13 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Thomas A. Clark Just a further note of support for the work of Thomas A. Clark. Madder Lake, published in 1981 by Coach House, is particularly recommended. I had the privelege of printing a letterpress broadside of a poem of his once, for a reading at Woodland Pattern in Milwaukee. from A Meadow Voyage, by Thomas A. Clark (from Madder Lake) weighed anchor under the sun our boat painted green with a border of blue the art of navigation a feather in mid-air ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:57:31 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: brief anthology of wrung-doings (e-Rengan Newsletter from Jorge Guitart, Tom Bell, Gabrille Welford, cris cheek, Jordan Davis, Maria Damon, Lisa Samuels, Chris Scheil, Sheila E Murphy and Abilnasarowe Histomarijo) Subject: rain of head, training of negligence unexpectedness behind roaring image voices of souvenirs and trains the exterior image clap unremitted, "the man" shattered his messy walls speech laws against trance leafing my kind of decay against the zoning pleasure the miracle of a points liberated fragments of loneliness blots leaving afterglows of grace a big firm, hung of Santa head extolling desperation in the well dead books vertical trestles singing subject - X-Attachments & the unexpectedness of voices and the steady rain of mink blood behind the exterior of the dance of the devils on the head of a pin by the roaring sound of trains and the hamboned clap driven training of souvenirs becomes an image of a blank foot tossed in the isles of negligence Okay ? the unremitted pleasure of decay against the walls of a willingness to please my-kind-of-plastered town "scared" zoning laws into the miracle of "the man" by his messy points leafing a salad speech of trance filming his chattered type of diffidence when dried ? the device of head trestles with wool-blurs of grace to the well pit the tip of her tongue hung in afterglows of desperation wineing the Santa of loneliness on the lip of leaving the firm by extolling the ffffffffffffffragments of blots render books a bit vertical singing old scores of the liberated dead rough ? rain of head, training roaring image trains unremitted speech laws against trance decay pleasure of loneliness leaving dead books singing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 09:36:28 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Keith Tuma Subject: midwinter Who said the errors of criticism are the errors of omission? Who cares? Anyway, it's almost Midwinter Day, which I hereby re-name Bernadette's Day: There are some things we cannot say! No, I can't say that! The awful presence of the obvious, abdicated time, Never relents in its demand to speak all at once Because but for that there's the chance The rest of what's begun to be lost might be lost Like putting all one's bushels in an apple forever. . . --Bernadette Mayer, 1982 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 09:56:01 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: midwinter keith, thanx for reminding me of that... i think i'll pull bmayer's book off the shelf and reread my favorite section, part three... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:44:56 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: oops Poetics Group-- Inadvertently, I sent a message to the whole group instead of privately to Aldon Nielsen. My apologies. The information, concerning George Hartley's tenure case, though, may be helpful to others of you expressing an interest in the case. My apologies and embarrassment, since I meant to send it to Aldon as requested.... Hank Lazer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 09:33:35 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: _Transbluesency_ In-Reply-To: <199512190519.AAA29408@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Rushing this morning, so no time to do the kind of close comparison between the old Baraka _Selected_ and the new, as Ron asked,,,, but here are some preliminary points: --re: recent discussions, the price of the old, printed on the cover, was only $5.95 -- --more significantly, the new has NO POEMS AT ALL from _Spirit Reach_, which strikes me and several others as odd -- --new vol. has some of the new stuff, including "Heathens," which is great, and stuff from _Whys_ -- on the latter, the version of the text in _Transbluesency_ is not identitical to the version published simultaneously by Third World Press-- The politics of all this would be an interesting study -- why was the old Morrow allowed to go out of print? The new vol. is important also because the Baraka Reader, despite its many merits, is short on the poetry-- the new intro. is also odd, but folks can discover that for themselves -- The Morrow _Selected Prose_ has materials in it, including a chapter from the never published second novel, that make it worth finding -- again,,,, why is this out of print? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 12:15:16 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Slinger Thanks to Michael Boughn for pointing out that there are, even recently, some flashes of brilliance in Dorn's work, and some very sharp movements of language, even if he doesn't read "language" work, and despite the truth of what Ron Silliman says about the general trajectory of his poetic career. I like this note, from Captain Jack's Chaps or Houston/MLA, which is post-Slinger, but pre-Abhorrences -- A Piece of Advice: It is Far Better to Copter in, but Even That Way You Can Lose a Blade In Hughestown, it is good to be inside, in Hughestown it is better to look *out on* than to look *into.* In Hughestown they have constructed ramps, the transmundane conduits of executive perfumery. But this is not climate control as in St. Paul. These elongated bunkers protect the prominaders from the anger of the pomaders crowded around the Wig Wam pitched in the concrete universe below where identities are exchanged in a wink for exaggeration's sake. And I think Michael's right, that we don't read Pope much anymore, and that "comic" is a difficult proposition when attached to Slinger or to Dorn in general. "Satire" might come closer, although in some ways this pastiche mixes modes and has lots of moments of rather elegant pronouncements, a la Olson, which, granted, some might find comic as well. charles alexander >> Years later, I still have trouble with Slinger. I can't see his >> statements as other than pompous. And as for the rest? Maybe some fan of >> Ed Dorn should come to his defense. It does nothing for me. >> >> Is anything really a joke when no one but the teller is laughing? > >If Dorn chose to play post-Modern Pope to Olson's post-Modern Milton, >I say more power to him. Part of the problem is no one reads Pope these >days, or Milton, so who's going to measure that achievment? As for >Dorn's "squibs", _Abhorrences_ is among the most brilliant political >poetry in the satirical tradition produced in the depths of the current >Political Reaction. > > Free Market Chinoiserie > > There will never be enough BMWs > for the stated Billion, there will never > even be enough paper towel > or gas barbeques or ever enough ribs > or sauce for those short ribs. There will never > be enough coupons to clip or scissors > to clip them with--and there will never be > enough accountants to count it all > or paper to keep the accounts on > or discs to store the accounts > for which there will never be entries enough. > Someone should tell them. > >Why is everyone so anxious to bind up the world with their unforgiving >moralistic judgements (that's NOT funny and you're going to poet's >hell for your bad taste), masquerading plain old bad blood behind a >facade of aesthetic and political theory? > >Mike >mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:48:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Howard Shoemaker Subject: Chicago gatherings Aldon wrote: "Maybe someone who knows the particulars of George's situation at Ohio State could quietly fill in those of us who show up at the Sun & Moon or Millenium gatherings in Chicago next week??? and then we could talk about how we might be of help ?" Can somebody re-post the info on these gatherings, or back-channel to me? Thanks, steve ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 11:07:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: midwinter my concept of time is so screwey right now that i hadn't realized i'd picked the perfect time of year to read it. part six tonight.... love, eryque ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:47:18 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Alan Golding Subject: Twentieth-Century Lit. Conference Associate Professor of English, U. of Louisville Phone: (502)-852-5918; e-mail: acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu If anyone's interested in chairing a panel at this year's Twentieth-Century Lit. Conference, Feb. 22-24, 1995, please contact Harriette Seiler, the Conference Director, at hmseil01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu. This year's speakers/readers include Rachel Blau DuPlessis, Barrett Watten, Stephen Wright, and Michael Weaver. "For whom is Slinger still funny?" would be another way of asking that question. I still take great pleasure in Books I (especially) and II. But part of that pleasure may be a possibly generational pleasure in getting a lot of the "in" jokes (some of the more arcane rock quotations, for instance). And to what extent does my pleasure in this particular comic text have an element of baby boom nostalgia in it too? I'm not sure. I still find Slinger funny; but the last time I taught it, a lot of my students found it dated (that's what I mean by "generational pleasure"--their points of popular reference were not mine). So does that mean that any text thoroughly and explicitly immersed in "popular culture," as comic texts often-are, will always-date? Are there particular kinds of comic poems (not all) that are by definition occasional/ephemeral? And does that matter? Maria? Anyone? I *know* I'm going to regret bringing this up, but I'm desperate for some way to continue my avoidance of grading final papers and doing holiday shopping. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 12:33:18 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: Can You Hear, Bird In-Reply-To: <951219000645_58062418@emout04.mail.aol.com> Here in Hawai'i it's we who are afraid of the price tags! On Mon, 18 Dec 1995, Rod Smith wrote: > I wholeheartedly believe the new Ashbery, _Can You Hear, Bird_ is durn > terrific-- curious what others think. "Do not go into Hawaii./ Even the price > tags are afraid." That the beginning of a poem called "Gladys Palmer." Seems > his styles have become even smoother, even more permeable, while remaining > reflexive, entertaining. > > --Rod > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 11:34:46 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland Subject: Re: midwinter Comments: To: KWTUMA@miamiu.acs.muohio.edu Dear Keith, Thank you for the Mid-Winter clip. Which brings me to ask for news of Bernadette Mayer. Last list word of her was of her ill health. Here summer is up. The coastline is red with pohutukawa blossom. Pakistan is here, and the West Indies are in Australia. We hear how deep poetics is in Buffalo snow and give an involuntary shiver (brrrrr!) Seasons greetings Wystan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:45:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: More Slinger In-Reply-To: from "Alan Golding" at Dec 19, 95 03:47:18 pm > So does that mean that any text thoroughly and explicitly immersed in "popular > culture," as comic texts often-are, will always-date? Are there particular > kinds of comic poems (not all) that are by definition occasional/ephemeral? > And does that matter? Maria? Anyone? I *know* I'm going to regret bringing > this up, but I'm desperate for some way to continue my avoidance of grading > final papers and doing holiday shopping. If you read Slinger as a mock-epic, in the tradition of, say, Dryden's Mac Flecnoe or Pope's Rape of the Lock, then the references to popular culture become significant in any number of ways. They meet the epic's demand for a connection to the gods, and for a thick layer of reference, among other things. Milton, working with Christian figures, plays with the Latin and Greek gods. Pope, playing with Milton, turns them amusingly into Sylphs, figures from Rosicrucian pseudo-mythology, then trendy in Tory social circles. Dorn is just making the translation, and he does it brilliantly, as brilliantly as Pope, anyway, I think. Slinger is not, to my understanding, a comic poem. It's a Juvenalian satire in the mode of the mock-heroic. Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 18:52:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: midwinter the function of readings Bernadette Mayer was at the Mark Wallace/Laynie Browne reading at the Ear last Saturday sitting right up front (that is, in the very back). From where I was sitting (at the bar, blocking Charles Bernstein's view) she seemed to be having a good time. Love, Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 20:23:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Pound as Listserv Oh, Pound was fantastic. I mean because of Pound, I was in touch with Creely, I was in touch with Olson, I was in touch with Cid Corman. None of us knew each other and we were all writing each other letters, and all this comes through that little center down there in St. Elizabeth's mental hospital in Washington, DC. You know, "Write Creeley, chicken farmer up in New Hampshire . . ." --Paul Blackburn ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 01:06:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Can You Hear, Bird Dear Rod and Susan-- Having been a fan of Ashbery's (if not perhaps a TRIBE of John) for a long time but being disappointed with his previous two books---HOTEL L and AND THE STARS WERE SHINING--I have told myself that I will not buy the new book (at least until it comes out into paperback), but I am willing to be convinced otherwise---So, perhaps you could quote in full this poem GLADYS PALMER because I am curious what the price tags are afraid of, or if one has to BE a price tag to be afraid, and that therefore HAwaii is a haven away from COMMODITY and FEAR in this poem. Or maybe the price tags that are afraid LIVE in Hawaii--unlike in the unexotic mainland where respectable pricetags would never show their fear--much less reveal their 10 foot cockroaches crawling out of lava.....chris s. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 03:37:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Wanna date? Working through the K section of The Alphabet, which is the "next paragraph" of Ketjak (the last one having been completed 21 years ago), I've been painfully, tho perversely gleefully, aware of just how much any level of referentiality to that shared world of media culture in particular is bound forever in such contexts, like puka shell necklaces for men or Nehru jackets (or Nehru himself for that matter). But the idea that work should *not* date seems problematic to me. That is precisely how the cultural dominant exercises its control over which works should "last" and which "wither and die." Rather, one ought to read them as artifacts. I totally distrust the "timeless." My obsolete rose is not Williams' let alone that of the Greeks. Ron Silliman rsillima@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 03:45:36 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Pope Charles, etc. I've always thought of Charles Bernstein as the Alexander Pope of our time, and think of this as a positive comment. In addition to Pope's foregrounding of satire as a mode for major poetry, I think that a case can also be made for Pope as the first true prose poet in English (ahead, say, of Blake, let alone Tagore). His use of language is so distinctly SYNtactic, rather than hypotactic, that he (Pope, not Charles) seems the direct ancestor of Ashbery. (OK, maybe Charles is the ancestor of Ashes also.) Ron Silliman rsillima@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 08:01:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: The Kink of Comedy if i were you i'd teach lenny bruce, lenny bruce and more lenny bruce. also, Studies in American Humor or someting like that has a special issue on humor in american poetry --1992 or something. it's not an especially distinguished mag, but yours truly has a small article on jack spicer's "subaltern wit" therein. md ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 09:10:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Phillips Subject: Re: Wanna date? Seems too that there is the obverse - that we also come to expect a constant overturn, that we want to know flowers by their edges. Last weekend sitting in the Waldrop's house with a crew of youngish poets - Jennifer Moxley, Gale Nelson, Mark McMorris, and youngish critics - Steve Evans - talking about what happens to they who "stabilize" or hone their work (Michael Palmer was brought up) as opposed to they who try to break with their most recent move (Bataille came up on this side,though just in passing - we here in Prov. don't necessarily fill snowy nights with talk of B. ). What's interesting now is that I cannot think of a single poet who I would say continually disrupted the tack of their work. Perhaps this is because of another effect of "the cultural dominant" as it is played in time. That each poet (and this came up in the midst of scotch, wine and smokes) even in disruption, plays out a continuity - familiar patterns of discontinuity. This perhaps may be how in one respect the most experimental become dated - moving from an inherent breakage in all respects (Stein) to a determining factor in the history of such breakages (Stein). By the way, Rosmarie serves up a mean King's Curry. on the 20th Ron Silliman wrote -- > >But the idea that work should *not* date seems problematic to me. That >is precisely how the cultural dominant exercises its control over which >works should "last" and which "wither and die." Rather, one ought to >read them as artifacts. > >I totally distrust the "timeless." My obsolete rose is not Williams' >let alone that of the Greeks. > >Ron Silliman >rsillima@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 10:27:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: The Kink of Comedy well, since maria's bringing up people like LENNY BRUCE--- (to which one can also add certain George Carlin and Richard Pryor-- ah the good old days when stand-up was politically "left"!--- even Woody Allen's Stand up Comic album--- I like to tell my students that the reason Andrew Dice Clay never gets arrested for obscenity while Lenny did is because obscenity in the service of right-wing upper class interests is OKAY--- see Howard Stern (who I still blame for PAtaki's election, btw)--- who is about as funny as Gerald Stern (i.e,. NOT VERY)--- so, also let's bring up BOB DYLAN's 115th DREAM for instance too as classic comedy--- as "timeless" comedy (smile ron smile) and maybe Jeff Hansen or someone could help me start up a collection so we can BUY A POWDERED ALEX POPE STYLE WHIG FOR MR> BERNY.... And what ever happened to the great and noble profession of FOOLES----of FOOLES UPON FOOLES (the other book written by the man who wrote A NEST OF NINNIES---the ancestor of ashes & sky & monty python) -----here's hoping the eagle picks YOUR eye too.cs. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 12:09:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Libbie Rifkin Subject: Ted Berrigan I'm beginning work on a dissertation chapter on Ted Berrigan and Frank O'Hara and wondering if anyone out there is currently working on Berrigan. Beyond the "Nice to See You" homage collection, a great short piece by Barrett Watten and an article by Joel Lewis, I haven't found much writing on Berrigan's poetry. "Nice to See You" is composed mostly of memoirs (Charles Berstein's "Writing Against the Body" is a notable exception). The fact that memoir is still the dominant mode of commentary on these two poets, and perhaps the "New York School" in general, seems relevant in itself. But what about the poetry? Has Berrigan already been discussed in this forum? I'm new to the list and would like to hear what people are doing. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 12:32:20 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Brannen Subject: Thomas A. Clark Thomas A. Clark's work deserves support. His Tormentil and Bleached Bones published by Polygn Press in 1993 is lovely work and is probably still available from SPD. Among his other books which may also still be available, I would highly recommend Some Particualrs (Jargon Press, 1971), Ways Through Bracken (Jargon Press) and Vagrant Definitions (Membrane Press). His other books are good as well, but I suspect they can no longer be found. The broadside that Charles Alexander printed for Clark's Woodland Pattern reading is beautifully printed and its design is eloquent advocacy for Clark's writing. Jonathan Brannen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 14:46:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: anachronism Dear Chris and others: Sorry it's taking me so long to respond--no offense intended, I'm just on e-mail about once a week these days. I'm by no means an expert on the history of "conscious anachronism" in avant garde practice, so I'd love someone to fill this in, but certainly a main proponent of such a possibility was Robert Duncan. I remember transcribing a tape of a Duncan lecture for Robert Bertholf (don't think it ever appeared in print, but I could be wrong) in which Duncan talks about the "thee" and "thou" in his poems, how they are written off as the heights of pretension by some, but that they actually are not that far back in the past, and offer variations on possible intimate addresses that our own "contemporary" language has lost--along, of course, with the religious implications. So a "conscious anachronism" would be pointing out that the present does not represent some clear linear movement forward, but is as much a forgetting of past potential as it is any realizing of the potential of the past. And I think I see some poets like Pam Rehm, Liz Willis, and some others talking about that process of forgetting and trying to make us remember what's hovering around in there... Of course, anyone who knows my poetry probably knows that this is not a thing I'm doing myself, but I think some pretty intersting things are going on with it. It's funny, and totally unsurprising by the way, that the most questions I've had about my article have to do with the short characterizations of emerging avant garde writers that I list near the end of that piece. I tried to suggest, of course, that such characterizations are by definition shorthand, and can't do full justice to the work in question. In any case, if there's anybody out there who I mentioned in a way that to them seems not quite to fit, I'd be interested in hearing from you about how, in such a short mention, to refer to your work more accurately... mark wallace P.S. I'll be able to respond in about another week... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 15:52:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Smith Subject: Re: Thomas A. Clark I wanted to second Charles Alexander's comment: <> Great stuff, close focus on the natural world & a precise ear. It's the only book of Clark's I own, "Seen through the press by BP Nichol" with each poem printed recto only. Who cd afford that today? Anyone know if he's still writing or publishing today? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 19:15:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Landers Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 18 Dec 1995 to 19 Dec 1995 Michael Boughn writes: (in response to me) >Why is everyone so anxious to bind up the world with their unforgiving >moralistic judgements (that's NOT funny and you're going to poet's >hell for your bad taste), masquerading plain old bad blood behind a >facade of aesthetic and political theory? Michael, That's an important question that I certainly have put to myself: does bad blood taint my appreciation of good poetry? No. If that were the case, how could I read Eshelman? And I have to admit, that guy's one of the best, even if ... (but let's not go that way.) I don't see Dorn as the Pope to Olson's Milton at all. He's just a famous student of Charles Olson, a poet, his preferred style is closer to Creeley, but not as good, IMO. Why continue the anachronistic parallels? Pound took back what he said to Beckett. As to classics: Juvenal *does* give me the same problems in humor. I'm sure he's only read by Latin scholars for his rhetoric. There's not much poetry or humor there. Pete Landers landers@vivanet.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 21:17:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: Ted Berrigan Do you know Ron Padgett's book "Ted" or "Late Returns" by Tom Clark? (oops, underlines for quotes there) Ted's a curious memoir. Eccentric bibliography and cover shot. Jordan Davis ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 21:22:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 18 Dec 1995 to 19 Dec 1995 Peter Landers--- What DID Pound say to Beckett.... just curious (and where is this? In Kenner, who's written about both?) chris stroffolino ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 21:59:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Wanna date? Dear Pat Phillips'-- Great post....You seem to tie several threads together here: the question of anachronism (should a poet break with what s/he perceives to be a CULTURAL past) as well of individual style (should a poet break with what s/he perceives to be a personal HABIT--which Beckett calls "the great deadener" or something). Of course, it's not just a question of BREAKING with the CULTURAL past as such, for this may be something not available to certain poets in the first place. Poets who think it STARTED with Bernstein, for instance (as an ex-Providence poet told me recently, and for the sake of argument we may assume such "beings" exist). The individual style question is more interesting to me right now. We're told of POUND's phases, of Yeats', of Stein's, and the legiti- macy granted to studies of poets (and visual artists)' phases has been spoken about by Richard Schiff in ways that could be expanded on.... There is something provocative in your (seeming) claim that such PHASES are not engaged in as much today. Certainly, I don't recognize much difference between early Bruce Andrews and more recent, for instance-- and, value judgments aside, I wonder if STYLISTIC CONSISTENCY is held up as a value by the ART MARKET more than RESTLESS EXPERIMENTATION is. It seems an open question, and one perhaps beyond intent. For it seems that a poet may very much be trying to make a radical break with his or her own past but nonetheless still write work that is Moxleyesque or Phillipsesque whatever, in the eyes of others. And the converse and/or obverse may be true. One may be trying to be consistent and end up changing despite oneself. Of course, one may strife for consistency and be applauded for "the grace to live as variously as possible" so the question of value judgment and reception and all that gets potentially entangled in these questions. Yet, the point you make about DISRUPTION as in some ways the norm is tricky. For if we assume that Stein's THREE LIVES and STANZAS IN MEDITATIONS are made more similar to each other if read in the light of the writer's urge to disrupt her own investment in stylistic habits---if it becomes A HABIT TO BREAK HABITS (i'm quoting one of my poems here, btw)--as it SEEMS you're arguing, nonetheless this is still a different kind of habit than the one you recognize in Palmeri. But perhaps that's because I'm interested in dweeling on differences against a backdrop of similarity (just as at other times one may want to show the similarities between L poets and Romantics, in part because such similarities are denied). Chris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 00:44:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Phillips Subject: cheap date (yesterday) Chris, I'm too cheap a date for you... Just to respond, I think that the breakages and disruptions aren't from the cultural past as much, but of it. That one may disrupt the context of a social history and still be very much in it - providing contour... and too the phase thing is interesting - Vallejo's phases, Holderlin's phases, Miles Davis's phases, Jimmy Hoffa's phases. Matisse came up in our conversation as one with a long wave length - some people perform as moons pocked slowly - by chronotrope (like Matisse, in another time) and some more fleeting - by heliotrope (that 12 year old boy shot in a Palisades Parkway store yesterday). Pat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 01:53:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Landers Subject: Pound/Joyce anecdote Chris Stroffolino asked: > What DID Pound say to Beckett.... > just curious (and where is this? In Kenner, who's written about both?) I think I heard this from an Irish actor, so it could be blarney... I can't remember his name. Can anyone else validate this anecdote? Pound went to visit Joyce and there were several other young men there fawning over him. Pound had no use for sycophancy, so he walked up to one of the fellas and said, "I suppose you're writing the next Divine Comedy?" Many years later Pound saw "Waiting for Godot" and after the show went backstage to meet this amazing playwright. Beckett reminded him of the harsh quip and Pound apologized. The point, for me, is: Joyce isn't the tw.c. Homer, Pound isn't the tw.c. Dante, CO's not Milton. This kind of anachonistic parallelism only serves to lessen the individual's worth. I don't think Joyce sought the comparison between himself and Homer so much as between Bloom and Odyseus. Pete Landers landers@vivanet.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 20:58:12 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: T/Q: Contemporary Poetry (fwd) This request came through TAMLIT, and I thought someones on this list might want to suggest somethings. I asked the sender, and he/she's interestd in hearing from you. Gab. Sender: Parzival Subject: Contemporary Poetry Suggestions? Hello all-- A professor here at Kansas State has asked me to help him compile a list of about thirty contemporary (publishing during last 20 years) poets for a class he is teaching this spring. While giving some thought to my suggestions, I thought it might be interesting to get some input from the rest of you on the list. If you were going to suggest 5 poets, who would they be? Which collection? My apologies to anyone who feels this question is a little to akin to those found in various Usenet groups, but I am interested in what folks from other parts of the country are reading/valuing/teaching in contemporary poetry. I trust that if Randy feels this request is too superficial he will prevent it from being passed along to the rest of the group. The class, ENGL 340, is an undergraduate course, simply titled "Poetry." I look forward to hearing your input and suggestions, assuming you see this query. Thanks a bunch. Greg Dyer +------ Greg Dyer ** gad@ksu.ksu.edu ** http://www.ksu.edu/~gad ------+ | | | "This is the time of tension between dying and birth | | The place of solitude where three dreams cross | | Between blue rocks" | | | +-------------------- T.S. Eliot ** "Ash-Wednesday ---------------------+ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 03:42:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Smith Subject: Re: Thomas A Clark <<>with each poem printed recto only. Who cd afford that today? at that time, Coach House was both a publisher and a printshop (collective, i think); so many of the books of that era, clark's & b.p.'s among, were able to do some fairly extravegant productions. lbd>> yes, & paper was a whole lot cheaper! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 09:02:26 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: SPT newletter reviews Can't imagine that you'd be into this but I am keen to review from this pond out perspective.I could e-copy to speed process of incorporating response. IF you like that idea, my preferences would be for any (or all , or combinations) of the following: Nathaniel Mackey, Outlantish Ron Silliman, Demo to Ink Karen Mac Cormack, Quirks & Quillets bp Nichol, Art Facts: A Book of Contexts Jackson Mac Low, French Sonnets Charles Alexander, Hopeful Buildings Gerrit Lansing, Heavenly Tree/ Soluble Forest Dodie Bellamy/Sam D'Allesandro, Real Edward Foster, ed., Postmodern Poetry Jack Spicer, The Tower of Babel twould be my greatest pleasure to delve love and love to you cris (out of town 'til just after new year - welsh mountains - actually Devil's Bridge and some readings in Hereford / Norwich) - hope you're all / both well ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 09:35:44 GMT0BST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Larkin Organization: UNIVERSITY OF WARWICK LIBRARY Subject: Thomas A Clark Having been indulging in universal deletion recently, I awake to find some attention being paid to Thomas A Clark. I don't know why, but think it's the right idea. Prest Roots has one of his titles currently available: Dwellings & Habitations, illustrated by Kate Whiteford (1993 1 871237106).stlg6.00 plus postage outside UK. If you can pay by stlg bank order, orders can be sent to me direct on email. If not, Paul Green will deal with dollar orders. I hope to call in on Tom tomorrow, by the way, so can tell him of his new electronic fame. PeterPeter Larkin Philosophy & Literature Librarian University of Warwick Library,Coventry CV4 7AL UK Tel:01203 524475 Fax: 01203 524211 Email: Lyaaz@Libris.Lib.Warwick.ac.uk ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 19:38:14 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Subject: Re: Ted Berrigan In-Reply-To: Particularly if your chapter will deal with the relation between Berrigan's and O'Hara's poetry, might I (modestly) recommend the interview with Berrigan, on O'Hara's poetry, which is included in the Berkson/LeSueur HOMAGE TO FRANK O'HARA (either as Big Sky 11/12 or republished by Creative Arts Press in SF). What Berrigan has to say about O'Hara's poetry in that interview is also illuminating re his own works. There is a fair amount of technical criticism as well as some "moral" assessment. In general, you may find interviews with Berrigan (e.g., the Talking in Tranquility collection) to be most useful. Berrigan loved to talk about how his poetry was put together. Most reviews of his work, on the other hand, were negative and/or defensive in their negativism. (Marjorie Perloff, why haven't you reviewed the Penguin Selected Berrigan for The New Republic?) I think of Ted Berrigan as very much a formalist. His core technique of appropriation and collage is consistent, even when you don't expect it (for example, he once pointed out that he got the title for "Words For Love" by taking the titles of Creeley's first two Scribners books, which were on the desk when he was writing the poem) but he runs its through a tremendous number of variations and changes. "Who owns words" as he quoted Tom Clark, in an attempt to appropriate that very phrase. Also, Berrigan's poetry seems to me very different from O'Hara's, in method and tone. As personalities or figures in a landscape, there may be more similarities, although you might as profitably look to Apollinaire or Pound as the model. Berrigan's poetry, as opposed to his persona, is not really about personality in the way that O'Hara's is. I have tried more than once to write about Ted's poetry, never successfully. Simon Schuchat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 07:26:41 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Edwards <100344.2546@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Thomas A Clark Good to see appreciations of Thomas A Clark on this list. So far as I know, he's still writing, and running Moschatel Press, the address being Iverna Cottage Rockness Hill Nailsworth Gloucestershire UK should anyone want to get in touch with his latest output. A good introduction to his work for those who don't know it would be the three-fer anthology _The Tempers of Hazard_ published by Paladin (a HarperCollins imprint) in 1993. But HarperCollins have junked their briefly interesting poetry list, so it's probably already out of print. The disadvantage of this selection is that you lose the beauty (there's no other word for it) of the original typesetting; the advantage is you also get chunky selections of Chris Torrance and the inestimable Barry MacSweeney. Ken ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 07:54:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: anachronism >Dear Chris and others: > > Sorry it's taking me so long to respond--no offense intended, I'm >just on e-mail about once a week these days. > > I'm by no means an expert on the history of "conscious >anachronism" in avant garde practice, so I'd love someone to fill this >in, but certainly a main proponent of such a possibility was Robert >Duncan. I remember transcribing a tape of a Duncan lecture for Robert >Bertholf (don't think it ever appeared in print, but I could be wrong) in >which Duncan talks about the "thee" and "thou" in his poems, how they are >written off as the heights of pretension by some, but that they actually >are not that far back in the past, and offer variations on possible >intimate addresses that our own "contemporary" language has lost--along, >of course, with the religious implications. So a "conscious anachronism" >would be pointing out that the present does not represent some clear >linear movement forward, but is as much a forgetting of past potential as >it is any realizing of the potential of the past. And I think I see some >poets like Pam Rehm, Liz Willis, and some others talking about that >process of forgetting and trying to make us remember what's hovering >around in there... Of course, anyone who knows my poetry probably knows >that this is not a thing I'm doing myself, but I think some pretty >intersting things are going on with it. > >It's funny, and totally unsurprising by the way, that the most questions >I've had about my article have to do with the short characterizations of >emerging avant garde writers that I list near the end of that piece. I >tried to suggest, of course, that such characterizations are by >definition shorthand, and can't do full justice to the work in question. >In any case, if there's anybody out there who I mentioned in a way that >to them seems not quite to fit, I'd be interested in hearing from you >about how, in such a short mention, to refer to your work more accurately... > >mark wallace > >P.S. I'll be able to respond in about another week... There are zillions of ways to use anachronisms in innovative wrioting. My newest piece designed for the electronic transmission uses the three lines "An Ark bearing the Name of Columbus/Sails through the Skies/Casting a Shadow on the New World." I set its three lines into three parallel arcs, and then set the whole into the same black letter type face used in the Gutenberg Bible. Hopefully using the archaic type evokes the period of Columbus's cruise and helps drive home the meaning of the piece, that Columbus's discovery was a mixed blessing at the very least. Have a good week-- Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 08:34:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: More Slinger In-Reply-To: from "Landers" at Dec 20, 95 07:15:06 pm > Michael, > > I don't see Dorn as the Pope to Olson's Milton at all. He's just a > famous student of Charles Olson, a poet, his preferred style is closer > to Creeley, but not as good, IMO. Why continue the anachronistic > parallels? Pound took back what he said to Beckett. > > As to classics: Juvenal *does* give me the same problems in humor. I'm > sure he's only read by Latin scholars for his rhetoric. There's not > much poetry or humor there. > > Pete Landers > landers@vivanet.com > Dear Pete Landers: I wasn't just pulling it out of the air. Those who know Dorn know that at a time when others were looking to the Romantics (Blake, the lyric) and to the epic tradition as points of departure for their thinking about poetry, and the practice of their craft, Dorn turned to the 18th century and to the satiric tradition. Which makes a lot of sense for many reasons, not the least of which is what do you write in Olson's shadow if you don't want to throw out Olson. Maybe you think he failed, I don't know. We could certainly discuss that. But I do think any reading of Slinger that ignores its positioning of itself in the tradition of the mock-heroic is going to miss a lot of interesting stuff that's going on in the poem. The problem with dated references in satire is not limited to Slinger. Try teaching Gulliver's Travels, or Mac Flecknoe, or Pope's Epistles. Or just try reading them. Satire is necessarily tied to observations of the current social and political scenes. Without the footnotes, few of us would know that when Gulliver pisses on the Lilliputian palace to put out a fire, Swift is making fun of Queen Ann. I'm sorry to hear that you don't care for Juvenal. But that has little effect on the fact that he pioneered a specific mode of satiric address, a specific rhetoric, that carries his name to this day. While Charles Bernstein is often very funny, I'm not at all sure the Henny Youngman, NY burlesque school of humor is truly satiric. But I could be wrong about that. Best, Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 10:29:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: Pound/Joyce anecdote In-Reply-To: On Thu, 21 Dec 1995, Landers wrote: > The point, for me, is: Joyce isn't the tw.c. Homer, Pound isn't the tw.c. > Dante, CO's not Milton. This kind of anachonistic parallelism only serves > to lessen the individual's worth. I don't think Joyce sought the comparison > between himself and Homer so much as between Bloom and Odyseus. I would argue in fact that such anachronistic paralellism is SPOOFED by Joyce IN Ulysses, as Stephen and Bloom keep writing themselves into various plots (Stephen into Hamlet, primarily, Bloom into lots of things, the soft-porn *Sweets of Sin*). The Bloom/Odysseus parallel is so overdone and arbitrary that it makes fun of itself constantly. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 684-6277 There is some excitement in one corner, but most of the ghosts are merely shaking their heads. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 10:32:37 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: Wanna date? Patrick-- You've raised a number of issues that I've thought about for quite some time. Thanks for the fine post. Chris' response covered much of what I wanted to say--thanks, Chris. I am quite interested in an approach to writing that is self-interrupting, that deliberately avoids the establishment of a style, or signature, or voice. As you've suggested, Charles Bernstein's work is pertinent, especially since Charles deliberately designs books (well, his large books) that do, poem by poem, move by a principle of difference. Even so, as I argued in that APR piece, there ARE recognizably CB sounds, moves, interruptions, even layouts. Patrick wrote that he could not think of a single poet who "continually disrupted the tack of their work" and that "even in disruption [each poet] plays out a continuity--familiar patterns of continuity." Perhaps. But even so, the persistent attempt at self-disruption is significant, I think. It seems to me that self-disruption has, in part, to do with valuing writing as a fundamentally heuristic activity (rather than conceiving of poetry-making as something that tends toward a "perfected" product, or toward an already known mode of the beautiful). In my own writing, I have tried to explore such issues--Doublespace, for example, presents an array of deliberately conflicting modes of writing; so too does my forthcoming book (Three of Ten) from Chax. I tend to work by finding a mode of writing and inhabiting that mode for about a year; then, I do something else. Chris' post raises the related issue of "phases" of writing, which may become a way to tame or conceptualize (too neatly?) a less tidy process of writing and thinking. Yes, Chris, Stein's "urge to disrupt her own investment in stylistic habits--if it becomes A HABIT TO BREAK HABITS" can become its own identifying feature. Though I would also argue that the differences and the particularities of the disruptions (and the newly chosen paths/modes themselves) are significant, are of value. In critical writing on L Poetry, there often is the tendency to write about a community of writers, a set of group-based assumptions. And Ron and others have argued for the value of writing and thinking about communities of poets (rather than an H Bloom-like story of heroic individuals...). But, as the end of Chris' post suggests, it is also fruitful to think of individual writers, for in fact Ron's work is distinguishable from Lyn Hejinian's, and hers from Charles', and his from Susan Howe's, etc. So the individualistic, and even the (ugh) "personal," remains as a persistent trace? I think about this in relation to seemingly less personal, or depersonalized modes of writing. Say, Cage's chance operations. (And, by the way, Joan Retallack's new collection of Cage-conversations is fantastic--I'm part way through it--an engaging read, covering many of the topics of these posts--Joan does a superb job, as an EQUAL in the conversations.) Cage's example--and I think that many of his poems are decidedly Cage-identifiable (even if they consist of arrangements of the writings of others). Perhaps the "personal" or the "individualistic" might be thought of, as in mathematical terms, as a limit--as, in a graph, an asymptote. That is, a limit toward which some kinds of writing moves (but does not achieve). Cage writes toward a writing free of self, but that self does not finally disappear in the process.... Or, we could think about heteronymous production--Pessoa, etc. Which Chris might liken to "phases." Perhaps. At any rate, Chris and Patrick, thanks for the stimulating posts. I'd enjoy hearing more from you on these issues. Hank Lazer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 11:52:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Re: cheap date (yesterday) Pat, chronotrope?? like say stephen rodefer inundating himself with the city in 4 lecturns and in any work after that no specific pop cult refs appear? do you just get sick of something after being hit by the nth meteor? and then what makes you heliotrope? Bill ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 11:35:19 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kathryne Subject: Re: total quality mangled In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 5 Dec 1995 18:59:39 -0500 from This is old news: a response to a December 5 posting about prisons and privitization and libraries. There's lots to say on this clot of subjects, but I do want to make just the slightest intervention. I think that teaching in prisons, while possibly impossible for little white ladies (HA!!--on the last,anyway) like myself, presents interesting possibilities. The whole line of writing and revolution that held together the last Frankfurt School belief in the revolutionary potential of the marginalized and bound the Black Panther Party and others to emancipatory literacy wound through prison libraries. I am thinking, in the front of my head, of Herbert Marcuse, Angela Davis, George Jackson, and Huey P. Newton. One would have also to remember both Malcolm X and, the rather less jailed letter writer, Martin Luther King. THE THING IS TO GET PEOPLE READING, everywhere and at all times. Not to sound too Pollyanna, but where is the young punk/hunk/junkie in prison who will write a piece of cultural critique as strong as "Lazarus Come Forth"? Eldridge Cleaver was only the tip of an On Ice potential. Prisons are horrible places, but horrors, too, can be turned against atrocity. It takes a whole lot, however, to keep hope alive and turn hatred toward its proper source and object. Nevertheless, one cannot fail to be encouraged by the national prison protests, right after the Million Man March, against the different treatment of poor (mostly Black) crack users and Cocaine kings. The prison communications systems and libraries might yet hold the hope of revolution that too many have abandoned. Malcolm X and others thought so. ANYWAY, sorry to be late to the list on this topic, but my computer was jammed, my mind was manacled with student work. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 12:10:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: Pound/Joyce anecdote In-Reply-To: from "David Kellogg" at Dec 21, 95 10:29:27 am > The point, for me, is: Joyce isn't the tw.c. Homer, Pound isn't the tw.c. > Dante, CO's not Milton. This kind of anachonistic parallelism only serves > to lessen the individual's worth. I don't think Joyce sought the comparison > between himself and Homer so much as between Bloom and Odyseus. Of course Pound isn't the etc., nor Olson. Both, however, proposed to write epics, as a number of other writers did before them. What happens when you enter into that relation as a writer? Are you saying that knowing the conventions of the epic is irrelevant to an understanding of The Cantos or Maximus? Or, for that matter, the Aeneid or Paradise Lost? Isn't the handling of those conventions a crucial issue in terms of the writer's craft? And in terms of the poem's measure? As for lessening the individual's worth, I have no idea what that means. My experience is that writing devours the illusion of the individual's worth. Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 12:40:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: helio digress I was wearing a heliotrope shirt yesterday I don't know if I'd say it was a beautiful shirt But I liked the color As far as constantly interrupting yourself goes Could we fit say J Schuyler in the discussion a second? Constantly interrupting yourself in a way that still Sort of makes concessions to being socially accessible Equals to my ears digressions and does anybody read J.D. Salinger anymore in any context other than Composition-teaching? That whole "digress!" passage Gave me nightmares when I was growing up. It seemed very dated To me when I read it in um middle school but now looking at it It's pretty funny. Like Bugs Bunny. Or Howard Stern. And to address briefly the idea of a de-authored voice I'd like to mention the unknown work of Stephen Malmude Whose poems in quatrains are entirely made of found materials He writes maybe two or three poems a year And they're smashing Happy seasonal vacation Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 12:17:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Small Press Traffic reviews This is Dodie Bellamy speaking, the "db" of dbkk@sirius.com. I'd like to thank the poetics listserv for the enthusiastic response I've received to my request for book reviews. I've got more than enough people for our Chax Press/Talisman House issue of Small Press Traffic's newsletter, which I hope to have out in March. Due to the generosity of Loss Glazier, the newsletter will also be posted at the Electronic Poetry Center. We'll be doing another newsletter featuring O-Books, Kelsey Street, and Hard Press. When I get that list together, I'll post it on the listserv and again ask for reviewers. Thanks again. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 16:32:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: MEXSICAN VIS- & SPOUNDPOETRY CONFERENCE IN JANUARY Comments: cc: Dick Higgins =46or anyone who can manage to escape from Hayseeds' Heaven in mid-January, there's one whale of a visual and sound poetry conference shaping up at Mexico City from 10. to 21. January, exhbibition, etc. Contact C=E9sar Espinosa at [52] (5) 554-4629 for more details. It is called POESIAVIXUAL MEXICO INTERNACIONAL. He reads English but does not speak it easily, so best to speak in Spanish or fax him in English. To fax him, call the numberabove, when you hearan answer say "Fax tone please," and when you hear the fax tone, transmit. Hope to see a good many Poetics folk there- Sincerely Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 19:41:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Phillips Subject: Re: Wanna date? Hank, I agree that, as you say, "the persistent attempt at self-disruption is significant." But I also would say that the operative here is "persistent...distruption" - the present tense - and I'd say it's damn near impossible to eke out a history in the present tense, other than a personal history. After all I think history is a troubled contextualization socialized. On the other hand we have no choice but to try, and for me therein lies the rub. Or to use a different form of Chris's "phase," we are perpetually slightly out of phase. Somewhere in the middle between Stein's history of each one and history of every one. Wish I could offer more, but I've got to get some Thai food in the still-blowing snow. I will say Hank that I distinctly remember reading Doublespace in a rose garden somewhere between Piedmont avenue and Grand(?) in Oakland several years ago and have a clear memory now of feeling as though the garden was a mirror image of itself. Dunno, but there's some kinda context. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 19:51:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Phillips Subject: Re: cheap date (yesterday) Bill Answers: I hear that the smallest fleck of space trash can gouge a hole in an n-million dollar shuttle. and blazes (a.k. 47 poets at a slam) Pat ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 04:14:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Great Books for the holidays Two great new books for Kwaanza et al... The Said Lands, Islands, and Premises, by Mary Margaret Sloan (aka Margy), from CHAX, $11.00 (says so on the UPC!) Keys to the Caverns, by Clark Coolidge, Zasterle Press (Manuel isn't into that UPC stuff, this being a run of just 300--one of the largest pieces Brito has printed, by the way, beautifully product perfect bound book) Both soon, if not yet, available from SPD. Ron Silliman rsillima@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 10:28:37 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: MLA - UA Press I hereby invite Poetics list-ers who will be at MLA to stop by the University of Alabama Press Booth (#1117, open 9-6 Dec 28 & 29, 9-12 Dec 30). Person-ing the booth will be Nicole Mitchell who was recently named the new Director of the UA Press. I have worked with Nicole for a number of years. She is wonderful, and quite interested in publishing criticism on innovative poetries. She previously served as Acquisitions Editor for UA Press. Nicole was extremely helpful in publishing John Taggart's _Songs of Degrees_ (collection of essays), Susan Schultz's _Tribe of John_ (ed., essays on Ashbery), Bruce Commens book on modern & postmodern poetries (including fine work on Zukofsky). These books will be on display at MLA. Nicole has also been instrumental in Mark Scroggins' forthcoming book on Zukofsky. I've also urged Nicole to attend the U of California Press party for Pierre & Jerry's (not Ben & Jerry's) big book. If you are currently working on a manuscript, or have a project in mind, I urge you to go by and talk to Nicole. Tell her Hank sent you.... Though I will not be at MLA, I wish the conventioneers a happy new year and a bearable convention. Give Pierre & Jerry's book its properly glorious celebration! Hank Lazer ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 10:42:21 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: Wanna date? Pat, et al, Thanks for the kind words on Doublespace. Pat's new book, _Ruin_, is quite fine. Beautiful cover, small book that like the old Pocket Poets series fits in a back pocket, 76 pages of engaging writing. Apropos of recent discussions of self-erasure and self-interruption, a few passages from _Ruin_: kin, an unquestionable posture. gesture for sap, stark. chased out midnight. swerving oncoming traffic. . . . holding your tongue. gifted. thought as a series of bumps-- (creatures in their element). to have been told. . . . it's as supposed. broke in. a trade. plum. had looked out and trespassing. what was to be level. round in foment. level and round. it was a mixture of corners. story. an answer to calling. except. An enjoyable read, from What Books.... Reading Retallack and Cage this morning, found myself thinking that I didn't want my almost steady flow of interruptions interrupted .... Hank ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 13:49:40 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Bouchard/College/hmco Subject: Greeting A SWORD IN A CLOUD OF LIGHT Your hand in mine, we walk out To watch the Christmas Eve crowds On Fillmore Street, the Black District. The night is thick with Frost. The people hurry, wreathed In their smoky breaths. Before The shop windows the children Jump up and down with spangled Eyes. Santa Clauses ring bells. Cars stall and honk. Street cars clang. Loud speakers on the lampposts Sing carols, on juke boxes In the bars Louis Armstrong Plays White Christmas. In the joints The girls strip and grind and bump To Jingle Bells. Overhead The neon signs scribble and Erase and scribble again Messages of avarice, Joy, fear, hygiene, and the proud Names of the middle classes. The moon beams like a pudding. We stop at the main corner And look up, diagonally Across, at the rising moon, And the solemn, orderly Vast winter constellations. You say, Theres Orion! The most beautiful object Either of us will ever Know in the world or in life Stands in the moonlit empty Heavens, over the swarming Men, women, and children, black And white, joyous and greedy, Evil and good, buyer and victim, Like some immense theorem Which, if once solved would forever Solve the mystery and pain Under the bells and spangles. There he is, the man of the Night before Christmas, spread out On the sky like a true god In whom it would only be Necessary to believe A little. I am fifty And you are five. It would do No good to say this and it May do no good to write it. Believe in Orion. Believe In the night, the moon, the crowded Earth. Believe in Christmas and Birthdays and Easter rabbits. Believe in all those fugitive Compounds of nature, all doomed To waste away and go out. Always be true to these things. They are all there is. Never Give up this savage religion For the blood-drenched civilized Abstractions of the rascals Who live by killing you and me. - Kenneth Rexroth (1905-1982) ________________________ To all poetics subscribers: happy holiday season and best wishes for a good new year. daniel_bouchard@hmco.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 15:44:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Re: Wanna date? yes. i think the world of ruin. one person's self erasure is another's self eruption: afizz . . . . . . . . . . . . . help me, I'm. cudgel of snow, or maybe sun. I think the world of you. . . . . . . . hi 5 pat. Bill ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 16:31:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Dick Higgins/List of Sites Comments: cc: Loss Glazier Dick, Just a note. Address changed this past Sept... Old address: > Interesting Poetry- > ... > Electronic Poetry > Center-http://www.gopher://writing.upenn.edu/hh/internet/library/e-journals= > / > ub/rift/.hotlist -----> New address: <----- Electronic Poetry Center http://writing.upenn.edu/epc All best, Loss ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 18:38:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Wanna date? Thanks hank--- insofar as the waxing and waning of the moon is mapped as "phases" in the blink of the shutter-eye, what is the "I" that wants to phase-out the non-self that wants to phase out the "I" if there is not an IDENTITY between the seemingly opposing nouns (agents) that draws one's attention to the similarity of the verbs? Trying, straining, groping, grappling, etc-- And yet to say LET is better than to MAKE itself can become dogma, rhetorical sleight of hand too. And for all those who can't see the proof for the pudding, to boot.... and for all those who have cars, don't drive drunk less xmas comes more than once a year..... cs.... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 09:38:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: ELECTRONIC MUSIC PIONEERS (fwd) It's probably too late for Xmas use, but here is a lovely catalogue of electronic music composer Joel Chadabe & his eMUSIC Foundation just put out. Should be of interest to a num,ber of people on this list. There a special Cage catalogue, which I'll post seperately. & may Clanta Sauce sweep all our chimneys with sexy abandon. Pierre Forwarded message: > From Emusc@aol.com Mon Dec 11 13:03:24 1995 > From: Emusc@aol.com > Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:16:51 -0500 > Message-ID: <951208121650_128305139@mail04.mail.aol.com> > To: Emfnet@aol.com > Subject: ELECTRONIC MUSIC PIONEERS > > WELCOME TO eMUSIC > =============================== October 1995 > ELECTRONIC MUSIC PIONEERS! > > Welcome to the eMUSICx pioneers catalog. These are the basic discs, listed > in approximate chronological order, that will give you an excellent overview > of the history of electronic music. Bear in mind that this discography is > neither definitive nor final-as we find new discs that we can recommend, > we'll add them. > > Other eMUSICx catalogs are available. Please write, call or email for more > information. Note the sections following the disc listing called HOW TO > ORDER and ABOUT eMUSIC AND THE INNER CIRCLE. > > > =============================== THE DISCS > > FUTURISM AND DADA REVIEWED > Historical recordings of artists Russolo, Marinetti, Duchamp, Tzara, Cocteau, > Apollinaire, Schwitters, Huelsenbeck, with their voices and performances of > their music, some of it words, some of it noise. Apollinaire recites his 'Le > Pont Mirabeau' (1912), for example. Sub Rosa. > => eMUSIC #SU-100 $19 > > THE ART OF THE THEREMIN > First demonstrated in 1920, the Theremin is played by moving one's hands in > the air. Clara Rockmore is its first virtuoso, accompanied here by Nadia > Reisenberg, pianist. The package includes an informative booklet. It's > beautiful magic. Delos. > => eMUSIC #DE-100 $16 > > PIERRE SCHAEFFER: MUSICAL WORKS > The definitive collection, including 'Etude aux Chemins de Fer' (Railroad > Study, 1948), the first piece of musique concrete, and 'Symphonie pour un > Homme Seul' (1950, Symphony for One Man Alone), which was a collboration with > Pierre Henry. Four discs and a book of essays (in French) and photographs. > INA-GRM. > => eMUSIC #IN-106-6 $57 > > STOCKHAUSEN: ELEKTRONISHE MUSIK 1952-1960 > 'Etude' (1952), composed at Pierre Schaeffer's studio in Paris, 'Studie I' > (1953), 'Studie II' (1954), 'Gesang der Junglinge' (1956), and 'Kontakte' > (1960). A book of essays and articles in German and English, scores, and > photographs. Stockhausen Verlag. > => eMUSIC #ST-100-3 $57 > > ELECTRONIC MUSIC PIONEERS > ...from the Columbia-Princeton Electronic Music Center. Vladimir > Ussachevsky's 'Sonic Contours' and Otto Luening's 'Low Speed, Invention In > Twelve Tones', and 'Fantasy In Space' were played at the Museum of Modern Art > in New York on October 28, 1952. Also other compositions by Luening and > Ussachevsky, and Pril Smiley, Bulent Arel, Alice Shields, and Mario > Davidovsky. CRI. > => eMUSIC #CR-100 $19 > > GOTTFRIED MICHAEL KOENIG > Koenig worked with Stockhausen in Cologne, then became director of the > Institute for Sonology in Utrecht, Holland, where he began to formulate his > pioneering approaches to composing with a computer. Here are his first > electronic compositions including 'Klangfiguren II' (1955/56), 'Essay' > (1957/58), and 'Terminus I' (1962), composed in Cologne; and 'Terminus II' > (1966/67), 'Output' (1979), 'Funktion Rot' (1968), 'Funktion Grau' (1969), > 'Funktion Blau' (1969), and 'Funktion Indigo' (1969), composed in Utrecht > using an analog sequencer as a sound generator. Two discs and an informative > booklet. BVHaast. > => eMUSIC #BV-100-2 $33 > > BERIO / MADERNA > Luciano Berio was at the Museum of Modern Art in New York on October 28, > 1952, and it led him to establish, with Bruno Maderna, the Studio di > Fonologia at the Italian Radio in Milan. Berio's 'Thema-Omaggio a Joyce' > (1958) transforms text from James Joyce' Ulysses. Also: Berio's 'Momenti' > (1960) and 'Visage' (1961) and Maderna's 'Le Rire' (1962) and 'Invenzione su > una Voce' (1960). BVHaast. > => eMUSIC #BV-106 $19 > > FORBIDDEN PLANET > The original 1956 soundtrack to MGM's 'Forbidden Planet' by Louis and Bebe > Barron. In their words, "We created individual cybernetic circuits for > particular themes and leit motifs..." One of the first electronic film > tracks. GNP Crescendo. > => eMUSIC #GN-100 $16 > > JOHN CAGE 25-YEAR RETROSPECTIVE CONCERT > In New York in 1951, with the help of Louis and Bebe Barron, John Cage and > David Tudor established the Project for Music for Magnetic Tape. Earle Brown > arrived in 1952 and worked intensively with Cage to compose Cage's 'Williams > Mix' (1952), named after architect Paul Williams who funded the project. > Altogether, this is the famous recording, produced by George Avakian, of > Cage's 25-Year Retrospective Concert at Town Hall, New York, in 1958. > There's 'Williams Mix', 'Imaginary Landscape No. 1' (1939), 'The Wonderful > Widow of Eighteen Springs' (1942), 'Music for Carillon No. 1' (1952), > 'Sonatas and Interludes' (1948), and more. There's an extensive booklet, > with score excerpts, photographs (some published for the first time), and > text in English and German. Wergo. > => eMUSIC #WE-145-4 $39 > > THE NEW YORK SCHOOL 2 > In 1953, as part of the Project for Music for Magnetic Tape, Cage and Brown > composed Brown's 'Octet I'. Also on this disc is music by John Cage, Morton > Feldman, and Christian Wolff. Eberhard Blum plays flute and sound objects, > Steffen Schleiermacher plays piano, Jan Williams plays percussion. The > performances shine. Hat Hut. > => eMUSIC #HA-251 $19 > > COMPUTER MUSIC RETROSPECTIVE Lejaren Hiller's 'Illiac Suite' (1957) was the > first time a computer was used to make musical decisions. It was the start > of algorithmic composing and ancestor of computer interaction. Also other > pieces by Hiller, among them 'An Avalanche for Pitchman', 'Prima Donna', > 'Player Piano', 'Percussionist and pre-Recorded Playback', and it's wild! > With Jan Williams, percussion, Robert Dick, flute, Nora Post, oboe, Royal > McDonald, pitchman, Norma Marder, prima donna, and Robert Rosen, percussion. > Wergo. > => eMUSIC #WE-124 $19 > > INDETERMINACY > John Cage reads his stories, one per minute, while David Tudor performs solos > from the 'Concert for Piano and Orchestra' (1958). Tudor is great and Cage's > stories are funny, touching, and intelligent. If you don't have this 2-CD > set, you're missing an important part of life. Smithsonian/Folkways. > => eMUSIC #SM-100-2 $29 > > MUSIC FOR MERCE CUNNINGHAM > Here's an important moment in the early history of electronic performance: > John Cage's 'Cartridge Music' (1960) for phonograph cartridges and amplified > small objects, played by David Tudor, Michael Pugliese, and Takehisa Kosugi. > Also 'Five Stone Wind' (1988) with Tudor, Pugliese and Kosugi playing > amplified violin, bamboo flute, live electronics, tapes, and clay pots. > Mode. > => eMUSIC #MO-105 $16 > > JAMES TENNEY: SELECTED WORKS 1961-1969 > Tenney began at Bell Labs at the dawn of computer music. He led the way. > This disc includes 'Collage => eMUSIC #1' ("Blue Suede") (1961), 'Analog => > eMUSIC #1: Noise Study' (1961), and other early pieces. Artifact. > => eMUSIC #AR-106 $14 > > IANNIS XENAKIS: LA LEGENDE D'EER > The title comes from the end of Plato's The Republic. Xenakis composed the > music with his graphics-based UPIC system. The music was part of his Diatope, > a tent-space, based on hyperbolic paraboloids, that he designed as a setting > for these sounds, lights and lasers. The sounds are stunning, like nothing > you've heard elsewhere. Montaigne. > => eMUSIC #ME-103 $18 > > MORTON SUBOTNICK > Building on his first work with the Buchla synthesizer in 1965, in 'Touch' > (1969), Subotnick touches things to control the sound. 'Jacob's Room' (1986), > on the other hand, is hi-tech drama with Joan La Barbara, soprano. From > 'Touch' to 'Jacob's Room' is technology time travel. Wergo. > => eMUSIC #WE-104 $19 > > I AM SITTING IN A ROOM > The resonance of a room gradually transforms Alvin Lucier's voice into > abstract sounds. Composed in 1969, Lucier was at the time developing his > unique approach to using acoustic processes as the basis for his music. > Lovely. > => eMUSIC #LO-103 $18 > > JOHN CHOWNING > Breakthrough moments in computer music, including 'Sabelithe' (1966, revised > 1971), 'Turenas' (1972), 'Stria' (1977), and 'Phone' (1981). Chowning aimed > at sounds that were special to computers yet expressive and beautiful. In > 'Stria', for example, the sounds are simply out of this world. Wergo. > => eMUSIC #WE-102 $19 > > RISSET > Classics of elegant computer music: 'Inharmonique' (1977), which relates > sound and harmony; 'Sud' (1985), based on sounds of the sea near Marseilles; > 'Dialogues' (1975), for flute, clarinet, piano, and percussion with taped > computer sounds; and 'Mutations' (1969), composed at Bell Labs in New > Jersey. INA-GRM. > => eMUSIC #IN-103 $19 > > ROARATORIO > One of John Cage's big big big works, composed in 1979, with Cage reading his > text 'Writing for the Second Time Through Finnegans Wake', Irish musicians > playing and singing, and all the sounds mentioned in Finnegans Wake as > assembled by Cage on a 62-track collage tape. Two discs include a > conversation between Cage and Klaus Schoning (who commissioned the work for > the WDR in Cologne) and a solo recording of Cage reading his text. Also two > booklets with essays, conversations, and the text. Mode. > => eMUSIC #MO-108-3 $31 > > THE HUB > Music by John Bischoff, Tim Perkis, Chris Brown, Scot Gresham-Lancaster, Mark > Trayle, and Phil Stone, all in the San Francisco area. It's a network > approach to group performance. Artifact. > => eMUSIC #AR-101 $14 > > CONCERTO GROSSO > Richard Teitelbaum composed this in 1985. Improvisations by Teitelbaum > (keyboard and computer), Anthony Braxton (saxophones), and George Lewis > (trombone) alternate with computer-controlled acoustic grand pianos and > synthesizers. Lively, musical. Hat Hut. > => eMUSIC #HA-118 $19 > > GIUSEPPE G. ENGLERT > Englert was a founder of the Groupe Art et Informatique de Vincennes (GAIV) > in Paris. He's always looked for new ways to compose, to think. 'Sopra la > Girolmeta' (1991), the electronic work here, is about algorithms and > interactivity. Other pieces include 'Les Avoines folles' (1963) for string > quartet, 'Fragment & Caracol' (1974) for orchestra, and 'Babel' (1983) for > orchestra. Grammont. > => eMUSIC #GR-101 $19 > > DIGITAL SOUNDSCAPES > Barry Truax's 'Riverrun' (1986) was a breakthrough in granular synthesis > techniques. Truax said: "...to the fullest force of its mass, a river is > formed from a collection of countless droplets..." Also 'The Blind Man' > (1979), 'Aerial' (1979), 'Wave Edge' (1983), and 'Solar Ellipse' (1985). > Cambridge. > => eMUSIC #CG-100 $16 > > XXIst CENTURY MANDOLIN > David Jaffe's 'Silicon Valley Breakdown' (1982, revised 1993) was a > breakthrough in the synthesized plucked string department, as in bluegrass, > hoedowns, and all manner of styles. There's 'Grass Valley Fire', 1988, > played by the Modern Mandolin Quartet, 'American Miniatures', composed with a > NeXT Computer, and 'Ellis Island Sonata', with Jaffe playing mandolin. Well > Tempered. > => eMUSIC #WT-100 $18 > > LEAPDAY NIGHT > In the mid 1980s, David Behrman's computer listened and reacted to what an > instrumentalist played. In 'Leapday Night' it's listening to Ben Neill and > Rhys Chatham play trumpets, and in 'Interspecies Smalltalk' it's listening to > Takehisa Kosugi play violin. Also 'A Traveller's Dream Journal'. Lovely. > => eMUSIC #LO-107 $16 > > MORE THAN IDLE CHATTER > 'Idle Chatter, just_more_idel_chatter', 'Notjustmoreidlechatter', and other > pieces from the mid 1980s and early 1990s that play with speech and the > computer in a new way. As Lansky said, "There is music in speech, and speech > in song." Bridge. > => eMUSIC #BR-111 $16 > > PERFECT LIVES > Robert Ashley's video opera about bank robbery, cocktail lounges, geriatric > love, adolescent elopement, et al, in the American midwest. One of the > definitive text-sound compositions of the late 20th century and beautiful > music. "Who needs the Bible? We have Perfect Lives."-John Cage. Lovely. > => eMUSIC #LO-127-3 $47 > > TONGUES OF FIRE > Trevor Wishart is, by turns, comic, threatening, complex, and simple, as he > makes virtuoso computer transformations of his unique vocal sounds. A 25 > minute CD, but packed. OTP. > => eMUSIC #OT-100 $14 > > MOVIN' ON > Updated jazz. Bruno Spoerri plays saxophones, Synthophone (electronic > saxophone invented by Martin Hurni in Switzerland), synthesizers, and a > Macintosh computer. Reto Weber does a lot with percussion. With Albert > Mengelsdorff, trombonist, and Ernst Reijseger, cellist. Turicaphon. > => eMUSIC #TU-100 $19 > > > =============================== HOW TO ORDER > > Contact eMUSICx by email, fax, regular mail, or telephone, with a list of the > CDs you'd like to buy. Bear in mind that certain prices may change and that > some discs are available only in relatively small numbers. We'll fill orders > at current prices as we receive them. > > Tell us your address (including email) and phone numbers, and where you'd > like the discs shipped. > > Please pay in advance. You can calculate the amount of your payment as > follows: > > 1. Add together the prices of the discs you'd like to buy. INNER CIRCLE > subscribers, take a 10% discount from the sum. ICMA or SEAMUS members, take a > 5% discount from the sum. Discounts are not cumulative. > > 2. Then add the appropriate amount for shipping (priority mail) and > handling. If a disc is listed in the format LO-100, for example, count it as > one disc for shipping. If there's an extra number at the end, as in > "ST-100-3," for example -- the "3" at the end means that for shipping > purposes, the package should be counted as three discs. Use the following > table to calculate shipping/handling costs: > > North America & Mexico: First disc $2.00, each additional disc $1.00. > South America: First disc $3.00, each additional disc $1.50. > Europe: First disc $4.00, each additional disc $2.00. > Asia/Australasia: First disc $5.00, each additional disc $2.50. > > 3. Then, if you live in New York State, add 8% sales tax to the total. (New > York State requires that we also charge sales tax on shipping and handling > charges.) > > We accept credit cards (Mastercard and VISA). We also accept checks, bank > drafts and money orders -- but only in US$, drawn on a US bank. If you're > paying by credit card, we need your name (as it appears on the card), your > card number, expiration date, and your billing address and phone number (in > case we need to contact you). Please give us credit card information by fax, > phone, or regular mail (rather than email) to protect the confidentiality of > your information. Then you can email your orders -- and just tell us to > charge your card. > > Email to: eMUSC@aol.com > Fax to: (518) 434-0308 > Telephone to: (518) 434-4110 > Hard mail and carrier pigeon to: eMUSICx, 116 North Lake Avenue, Albany NY > 12206, USA > > > =============================== ABOUT eMUSIC > > eMUSICx is a worldwide service that gives you easy, direct-mail access to one > of the most comprehensive selections of compact discs of experimental, > exceptional, and/or electronic music. Wherever you live, eMUSIC brings you > CDs that may be hard to find, discs published by small companies or > independent composers or performers, even recordings you may not have known > existed. > > eMUSICx catalogs are circulated via email, hard-mail list, and (soon) the > World Wide Web. Let us know how you'd prefer to receive information. And if > you're serious about this, please consider joining the INNER CIRCLE. You'll > receive discounts on disc purchases, INNER CIRCLE disc offers, and other > benefits. To join the eMUSIC INNER CIRCLE, make a one-time tax-deductible > gift of $100. > > eMUSICx is a program of Electronic Music Foundation (EMF). A not-for-profit > organization in New York State, USA, EMF exists to disseminate information > and materials related to the history and development of electronic music. > > ===================================================== > > eMUSIC and Inner Circle are trademarks of Electronic Music Foundation, Inc. > > Electronic Music Foundation > 116 North Lake Avenue > Albany NY 12206 > USA > > Voice: (518) 434-4110 > Fax: (518) 434-0308 > Email: EMusF@aol.com > ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Form fascinates when one no longer has the force Dept. of English | to understand force from within itself. That SUNY Albany | is, to create." -- Jacques Derrida Albany NY 12222 | tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | "Poetry is the promise of a language." email: | -- Friedrich Holderlin joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 09:38:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: John Cage Discography (fwd) Forwarded message: From Emusc@aol.com Fri Dec 15 11:35:50 1995 From: Emusc@aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 11:23:27 -0500 Message-ID: <951215112326_55039266@mail06.mail.aol.com> To: Emfnet@aol.com Subject: John Cage Discography WELCOME TO eMUSIC! =============================== FALL 1995 A SELECTED JOHN CAGE DISCOGRAPHY This selected discography, with discs listed in somewhat chronological order, is drawn from all the CDs currently in print that contain Cage's music. It is neither definitive nor final: as we find new discs that we can recommend, we'll add them. Meanwhile, all the major phases of Cage's career are represented here, with some works available in more than one version. The Cage discography is the first of our subject catalogs. In the next few months, you can expect to see catalogs on microtonal music, pioneers of electronic music, words and music, transformed sounds, improvisation, and more. You'll also see a variety of special catalogs from time to time. Coming soon: a Larry Austin birthday tribute, with the entire CDCM catalog at sale prices; a group of special publisher offers; and "Discs Warren Burt has Known and Loved." For information on how to order CDs, read HOW TO ORDER immediately following the listing of discs. For more information about eMUSIC, read ABOUT eMUSIC. If you would like to hear more from us, please tell us -- by ordering a disc, by sending us a message that you'd like to stay on our mailing list, or by joining the INNER CIRCLE. We suggest that you read about discounts and other benefits in the section called ABOUT THE INNER CIRCLE, which follows the disc listing. =============================== THE DISCS WORKS FOR PERCUSSION Many of Cage's early percussion works, wonderfully performed by the Quatuor Helios. Included are 'First Construction (in metal)' (1939), 'Second Construction' (1940), 'Third Construction' (1941), 'Double Music' (composed with Lou Harrison, 1941), 'Imaginary Landscape No. 2' (1942), and 'Amores' and 'She is Asleep' (both 1943). Wergo. => eMUSIC #WE-143 $19 WORKS FOR PIANO... VOLUME III Works for piano, toy piano and prepared piano, performed by Joshua Pierce, Maro Ajemian, Marilyn Crispell, and Joseph Kubera. The disc includes: 'Suite for Toy Piano' (1948), the solo piano version of 'The Seasons' (1947), 'Music for Amplified Toy Pianos,' and 'A Book of Music' (1944) for two prepared pianos. Wergo. => eMUSIC #WE-140 $19 THE PERILOUS NIGHT 'The Perilous Night' (1944), performed beautifully Margaret Leng Tan. As Cage said, "I had poured a great deal of emotion into the piece..." 'Four Walls' (1944), also on this disc, was written during the same period. New Albion. => eMUSIC #NA-126 $17 SONATAS AND INTERLUDES Joshua Pierce's delicate and sparkling performance of 'Sonatas and Interludes' (1948) for prepared piano, perhaps Cage's most recorded work. Wergo. => eMUSIC #WE-146 $19 MUSIC OF CHANGES 'Music of Changes' (1951), Cage's first rigorous application of chance techniques to composition. Originally written for David Tudor, it's played here by Herbert Henck. An essential part of every Cage collection. Wergo. => eMUSIC #WE-137 $19 THE NEW YORK SCHOOL 1 This disc contains Cage's 'Variation 1' (1958), 'Seven Haiku' (1952), and 'Solo for Flute, Alto Flute and Piccolo' (1958). More: Earle Brown's 'Folio' (1953), 'Music for Cello and Piano'; Morton Feldman's 'Projection 1' (1950), 'Extension 3' (1953), 'Intersection 4' (1954), 'Duration 2' (1960); and Christian Wolff's 'For Prepared Piano' (1951), 'For One, Two or Three Performers' (1964). Eberhard Blum plays flute, Frances Marie Uitti plays cello, Nils Vigeland plays piano. Hat Hut. => eMUSIC #HA-209 $19 THE NEW YORK SCHOOL 2 Whether or not John Cage, Earle Brown, Morton Feldman, and Christian Wolff were a "school," their music surely goes well together. Eberhard Blum plays flute and sound objects, Steffen Schleiermacher plays piano, Jan Williams plays percussion. The performances shine. Williams does 'cC/omposed Improvisation' (1987) as a snare drum solo. Blum, as in 'Variations II' (1961), makes acoustic realizations of Cage works earlier realized with electronics. Brown's 'Octet I' (1953) was part of Cage's Project of Music for Magnetic Tape. Hat Hut. => eMUSIC #HA-251 $19 25-YEAR RETROSPECTIVE CONCERT The famous recording, produced by George Avakian, of Cage's 25-Year Retrospective Concert at Town Hall, New York City, in 1958, with 'Imaginary Landscape No. 1' (1939), 'The Wonderful Widow of Eighteen Springs' (1942), 'Music for Carillon No. 1' (1952), 'Sonatas and Interludes' (1948), 'Williams Mix' (1952) from the Project of Music for Magnetic Tape, and more. There's an extensive booklet, with score excerpts, photographs (some published for the first time), and text in English and German. Wergo. => eMUSIC #WE-145-4 $39 INDETERMINACY John Cage himself reads his stories at the rate of one per minute -- while David Tudor simultaneously and asynchronously performs the piano solo from the 'Concert for Piano and Orchestra' (1958). Tudor is great and Cage's stories are funny, touching, and intelligent. If you don't have this 2-CD set, you're missing an important part of life. Smithsonian/Folkways. => eMUSIC #SM-100-2 $29 CONCERT FOR PIANO AND ORCHESTRA & ATLAS ECLIPTICALIS These performances by the SEM Ensemble, conducted by Petr Kotik with Joseph Kubera playing piano, are the best performances of 'Concert for Piano and Orchestra' (1958) and 'Atlas Eclipticalis' (1961) available on disc. Kotik understands Cage. Wergo. => eMUSIC #WE-144 $19 MUSIC FOR MERCE CUNNINGHAM Here's an important moment in the early history of electronic performance: John Cage's Cartridge Music (1960) for phonograph cartridges and amplified small objects, played by David Tudor, Michael Pugliese, and Takehisa Kosugi. This performance is gentle yet somehow "crunchy." Also Five Stone Wind (1988) with Tudor, Pugliese and Kosugi playing amplified violin, bamboo flute, live electronics, tapes, and clay pots. Mode. => eMUSIC #MO-105 $16 ERIK SATIE: SOCRATE & JOHN CAGE: CHEAP IMITATION A perfect post-modern pairing! Satie's 'Socrate,' performed here in the original version by Hilke Helling, alto, and Deborah Richards, pianist. And Cage's 'Cheap Imitation' (1969) for piano, the re-processed version, performed by Herbert Henck. Wergo. => eMUSIC #WE-142 $19 ETUDES AUSTRALES Grete Sultan, for whom they were composed, plays the 'Etudes Australes' (1975), a massive and virtuoso set of piano etudes from the 1970s. Wergo. => eMUSIC #WE-147-3 $57 JOHN CAGE: VIOLIN MUSIC Paul Zukofsky plays Cage's 'Chorals' (from 'Solos for Voice'), 'Cheap Imitation' (1969), and 'Freeman Etudes I-VIII' (1980 & 1990). In 'Chorals,' perhaps Cage's most intensely microtonal piece, Zukofsky shows just how finely pitches can be played. This version of 'Cheap Imitation,' composed in consultation with Zukofsky, uses a multi-modal Pythagorean tuning. And the 'Freeman Etudes' might qualify as the most difficult violin music ever written. CP2. => eMUSIC #CP-102 $16 SINGING THROUGH Joan La Barbara sings Cage's vocal music beautifully. There's 'Mirakus' (1984) on a text by Marcel Duchamp, 'Eight Whiskus' (1984) on a text by Chris Mann, 'The Wonderful Widow of Eighteen Springs' (1942) and 'Nowth Upon Nacht' (1984) on text from James Joyce's 'Finnegans Wake,' 'Sonnekus' (1985) on Biblical and cabaret texts, 'Forever and Sunsmell' (1942) on text by e.e.cummings, 'Solo for Voice 49' (1970) on text by Henry David Thoreau, 'Solo for Voice 52' (1970) using vowels from Erik Satie and Thoreau texts, 'Solo for Voice 67' (1970) using various words, and 'Music for Two (by One)' (1984) on abstract vocal sounds. New Albion. => eMUSIC #NA-110 $17 JOHN CAGE: ORCHESTRAL WORKS 1 Finally! '101' (1989), for cooperative musicians without a conductor; 'Apartment House 1776' (1976), historical musicircus Americana written for the bicentennial; and 'Ryoanji' (1985), in this version for four soloists and orchestra. Cage found a new way of writing for orchestra. Mode. => eMUSIC #MO-118 $16 ROARATORIO One of John Cage's big big big works, composed in 1979, with Cage reading his text 'Writing for the Second Time Through Finnegans Wake,' Irish musicians playing and singing, and all the sounds mentioned in "Finnegans Wake" as assembled by Cage on a 62-track collage tape. Two discs include a conversation between Cage and Klaus Schoning (who commissioned the work for the WDR in Cologne) and a solo recording of Cage reading his text. Also two booklets with essays, conversations, and the text. Mode. => eMUSIC #MO-108-3 $31 JOHN CAGE: FREEMAN ETUDES, BOOKS ONE & TWO Irvine Arditti plays the first half of this massive virtuoso solo violin work composed in the late 1970s and again in the late 1980s, written as an example of the 'hard work' that would be necessary to solve global problems. If Arditti's virtuosity is an indication, there's hope for the world. Mode. => eMUSIC #MO-116 $16 JOHN CAGE: FREEMAN ETUDES, BOOKS THREE & FOUR Irvine Arditti plays the second half of this major violin work. It's even denser, even harder than the first. And again, Arditti plays them with elegance. Mode. => eMUSIC #MO-117 $16 EUROPERAS 3 & 4 John Cage wrote: "What is Europera 3 but a big party?" And indeed it is! Juxtapositions of singing, pianos, old recordings, and all manner of sounds suggestive of opera. And with 'Europera 4,' all the elements of opera come together in a big party. Performed by the Long Beach Opera. Mode. => eMUSIC #MO-112-3 $29 EUROPERA 5 The last of the series of Cage's assemblages of the European opera tradition, 'Europera 5' (1991) calls for two singers (Martha Herr and Gary Burgess), one piano (Yvar Mikhashoff), one 78-rpm victrola, one radio (Jan Williams), and one tape (Don Metz), all of which are combined in such a way that long silences and hilarious juxtapositions occur. Mode. => eMUSIC #MO-111 $16 JOHN CAGE: COMPLETE STRING QUARTETS, VOLUME 1 Cage wrote one "early" and three "late" string quartets. The Arditti Quartet very understandingly plays two of the late works: 'Thirty Pieces for String Quartet' (1981) and 'Music for Four for String Quartet' (composed as part of Cage's 'Music For ' series between 1984 and 1987). Mode. => eMUSIC #MO-114 $16 JOHN CAGE: COMPLETE STRING QUARTETS, VOLUME 2 The Arditti Quartet plays the 'String Quartet in 4 Parts' (1950), an early transitional piece that floats gently along in its serene and lovely way. Also the very late 'Four,' which refines, if anything, the stillness of its predecessor in terms more austere. Mode. => eMUSIC #MO-115 $16 THE NUMBER PIECES 1 Three very late, rarified, sparse chamber pieces by John Cage. 'Four3' (1991), based on Satie's 'Vexations' and composed for Merce Cunningham, is scored for twelve rainsticks, two pianos (one inside the hall and one outside) and violin playing held notes. 'One5' (1990) is a solo piano work and 'Two6' (1992) is a piece for violin and piano, recorded by Martine Joste and Ami Flammer, the musicians Cage wrote it for. Mode. => eMUSIC #MO-119 $16 FIFTY-EIGHT One of John Cage's very last pieces, 'Fifty-Eight' was written for the Pannonisches Blasorchester, an Austrian/Hungarian wind band, to perform it in the Renaissance courtyard of the Landhaushof in Graz. The porticos around the courtyard consist of fifty-eight arches. One wind player was stationed in each arch. Hat Hut. => eMUSIC #HA-241 $19 =============================== HOW TO ORDER To order discs, contact eMUSIC via email, fax, regular mail, telephone, by personal appointment -- or, in extreme cases, by carrier pigeon. Give us a list of the CDs you'd like to buy, and mention their eMUSIC catalog numbers. Please bear in mind that certain prices may change and that some discs are available only in relatively small numbers. We'll fill orders at current prices as we receive them. Tell us your address (including email) and phone numbers, and where you'd like the discs shipped (if it's different from your mailing address). Please pay in advance. You can calculate the amount of your payment as follows: 1. Add together the prices of the discs you'd like to buy. If you're a member of the INNER CIRCLE, take a 10% discount from the sum. If you're a member of ICMA or SEAMUS, take a 5% discount from the sum. Discounts are not cumulative. 2. Then add the appropriate amount for shipping (priority mail) and handling. If a disc is listed in the format LO-100, for example, count it as one disc for shipping. If there's an extra number at the end, as in "ST-100-3," for example -- the "3" at the end means that for shipping purposes, the package should be counted as three discs. Use the following table to calculate shipping/handling costs: North America & Mexico: First disc $2.00, each additional disc $1.00. South America: First disc $3.00, each additional disc $1.50. Europe: First disc $4.00, each additional disc $2.00. Asia/Australasia: First disc $5.00, each additional disc $2.50. 3. Then, if you live in New York State, add 8% sales tax to the total. (New York State requires that we also charge sales tax on shipping and handling charges.) We accept credit cards (Mastercard and VISA). We also accept checks, bank drafts and money orders -- but only in US$, drawn on a US bank. If you're paying by credit card, we need your name (as it appears on the card), your card number, the expiration date of the card, and your billing address and phone number (in case we need to contact you). Please give us credit card information by fax, phone, or regular mail, (rather than email) to protect the confidentiality of your information. After you've provided us with your credit card information, you can email your orders -- and just tell us to charge your card. Place your order by -- Email to: eMusc@aol.com Fax to: (518) 434-0308 Telephone to: (518) 434-4110 Hard mail and carrier pigeon to: eMUSIC, 116 North Lake Avenue, Albany NY 12206, USA =============================== ABOUT eMUSIC eMUSIC is a worldwide service that gives you easy, direct-mail access to one of the most comprehensive selections of compact discs of experimental, exceptional, and/or electronic music. Wherever you live, eMUSIC brings you CDs that may be hard to find, discs published by small companies or independent composers or performers, even recordings you may not have known existed. How does it work? Different eMUSIC catalogs are circulated in different media. If you're on our email list, we'll send you a brief catalog of selected discs every few weeks. If you're on our hard-mail list, we'll send you a catalog of selected discs every season. If you have access to the World Wide Web, you'll find (as of this fall), an up-to-date list our offerings on our Home Page. Let us know how you'd prefer to receive our information. However you receive them, you'll find our eMUSIC catalogs filled with electronic music history, unusual sounds, new ways of combining words and music, new approaches to improvisation, computer music, interactive music, portraits of composers, interpreters of 20th-century...and more! Our goal is to make available every disc of experimental, exceptional, and electronic music. =============================== ABOUT THE INNER CIRCLE If you're serious about all this, consider joining the INNER CIRCLE. You'll receive: - A ten percent discount on all disc purchases. - Special INNER CIRCLE disc offers. - Free access to our search and special-order service. If you're a music professional, there are other benefits as well. Ask about them. eMUSIC is a program of Electronic Music Foundation (EMF). A not-for-profit organization in New York State, USA, EMF exists to disseminate information and materials related to the history and development of electronic music. To join the eMUSIC INNER CIRCLE, make a one-time gift of $100 to EMF. If you act now, you'll also become a Charter Subscriber to EMF. ===================================================== eMUSIC and Inner Circle are trademarks of Electronic Music Foundation, Inc. Electronic Music Foundation 116 North Lake Avenue Albany NY 12206 USA Voice: (518) 434-4110 Fax: (518) 434-0308 email: eMusF@aol.com #### ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Form fascinates when one no longer has the force Dept. of English | to understand force from within itself. That SUNY Albany | is, to create." -- Jacques Derrida Albany NY 12222 | tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | "Poetry is the promise of a language." email: | -- Friedrich Holderlin joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 09:49:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: John Cage Discography (fwd) woops, that was not a new versions of empty words I sent over, only an eel-glitch. here's the cage cat -- pierre & hope to see many of you in Chicago: the MILLENNIUM party's on thursday, december 28 @ 5:15 in Chicago Ballroom C of the Chicago Marriott Hotel Forwarded message: > From Emusc@aol.com Fri Dec 15 11:35:50 1995 > From: Emusc@aol.com > Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 11:23:27 -0500 > Message-ID: <951215112326_55039266@mail06.mail.aol.com> > To: Emfnet@aol.com > Subject: John Cage Discography > > WELCOME TO eMUSIC! > =============================== FALL 1995 > > A SELECTED JOHN CAGE DISCOGRAPHY > > This selected discography, with discs listed in somewhat chronological order, > is drawn from all the CDs currently in print that contain Cage's music. It is > neither definitive nor final: as we find new discs that we can recommend, > we'll add them. Meanwhile, all the major phases of Cage's career are > represented here, with some works available in more than one version. > > The Cage discography is the first of our subject catalogs. In the next few > months, you can expect to see catalogs on microtonal music, pioneers of > electronic music, words and music, transformed sounds, improvisation, and > more. > > You'll also see a variety of special catalogs from time to time. Coming > soon: a Larry Austin birthday tribute, with the entire CDCM catalog at sale > prices; a group of special publisher offers; and "Discs Warren Burt has Known > and Loved." > > For information on how to order CDs, read HOW TO ORDER immediately following > the listing of discs. > > For more information about eMUSIC, read ABOUT eMUSIC. > > If you would like to hear more from us, please tell us -- by ordering a disc, > by sending us a message that you'd like to stay on our mailing list, or by > joining the INNER CIRCLE. We suggest that you read about discounts and other > benefits in the section called ABOUT THE INNER CIRCLE, which follows the disc > listing. > > > =============================== THE DISCS > > WORKS FOR PERCUSSION > Many of Cage's early percussion works, wonderfully performed by the Quatuor > Helios. Included are 'First Construction (in metal)' (1939), 'Second > Construction' (1940), 'Third Construction' (1941), 'Double Music' (composed > with Lou Harrison, 1941), 'Imaginary Landscape No. 2' (1942), and 'Amores' > and 'She is Asleep' (both 1943). Wergo. > => eMUSIC #WE-143 $19 > > WORKS FOR PIANO... VOLUME III > Works for piano, toy piano and prepared piano, performed by Joshua Pierce, > Maro Ajemian, Marilyn Crispell, and Joseph Kubera. The disc includes: 'Suite > for Toy Piano' (1948), the solo piano version of 'The Seasons' (1947), 'Music > for Amplified Toy Pianos,' and 'A Book of Music' (1944) for two prepared > pianos. Wergo. > => eMUSIC #WE-140 $19 > > THE PERILOUS NIGHT > 'The Perilous Night' (1944), performed beautifully Margaret Leng Tan. As > Cage said, "I had poured a great deal of emotion into the piece..." 'Four > Walls' (1944), also on this disc, was written during the same period. New > Albion. > => eMUSIC #NA-126 $17 > > SONATAS AND INTERLUDES > Joshua Pierce's delicate and sparkling performance of 'Sonatas and > Interludes' (1948) for prepared piano, perhaps Cage's most recorded work. > Wergo. > => eMUSIC #WE-146 $19 > > MUSIC OF CHANGES > 'Music of Changes' (1951), Cage's first rigorous application of chance > techniques to composition. Originally written for David Tudor, it's played > here by Herbert Henck. An essential part of every Cage collection. Wergo. > => eMUSIC #WE-137 $19 > > THE NEW YORK SCHOOL 1 > This disc contains Cage's 'Variation 1' (1958), 'Seven Haiku' (1952), and > 'Solo for Flute, Alto Flute and Piccolo' (1958). More: Earle Brown's 'Folio' > (1953), 'Music for Cello and Piano'; Morton Feldman's 'Projection 1' > (1950), 'Extension 3' (1953), 'Intersection 4' (1954), 'Duration 2' (1960); > and Christian Wolff's 'For Prepared Piano' (1951), 'For One, Two or Three > Performers' (1964). Eberhard Blum plays flute, Frances Marie Uitti plays > cello, Nils Vigeland plays piano. Hat Hut. > => eMUSIC #HA-209 $19 > > THE NEW YORK SCHOOL 2 > Whether or not John Cage, Earle Brown, Morton Feldman, and Christian Wolff > were a "school," their music surely goes well together. Eberhard Blum plays > flute and sound objects, Steffen Schleiermacher plays piano, Jan Williams > plays percussion. The performances shine. Williams does 'cC/omposed > Improvisation' (1987) as a snare drum solo. Blum, as in 'Variations II' > (1961), makes acoustic realizations of Cage works earlier realized with > electronics. Brown's 'Octet I' (1953) was part of Cage's Project of Music > for Magnetic Tape. Hat Hut. > => eMUSIC #HA-251 $19 > > 25-YEAR RETROSPECTIVE CONCERT > The famous recording, produced by George Avakian, of Cage's 25-Year > Retrospective Concert at Town Hall, New York City, in 1958, with 'Imaginary > Landscape No. 1' (1939), 'The Wonderful Widow of Eighteen Springs' (1942), > 'Music for Carillon No. 1' (1952), 'Sonatas and Interludes' (1948), 'Williams > Mix' (1952) from the Project of Music for Magnetic Tape, and more. There's > an extensive booklet, with score excerpts, photographs (some published for > the first time), and text in English and German. Wergo. => eMUSIC #WE-145-4 > $39 > > INDETERMINACY > John Cage himself reads his stories at the rate of one per minute -- while > David Tudor simultaneously and asynchronously performs the piano solo from > the 'Concert for Piano and Orchestra' (1958). Tudor is great and Cage's > stories are funny, touching, and intelligent. If you don't have this 2-CD > set, you're missing an important part of life. Smithsonian/Folkways. > => eMUSIC #SM-100-2 $29 > > CONCERT FOR PIANO AND ORCHESTRA & ATLAS ECLIPTICALIS > These performances by the SEM Ensemble, conducted by Petr Kotik with Joseph > Kubera playing piano, are the best performances of 'Concert for Piano and > Orchestra' (1958) and 'Atlas Eclipticalis' (1961) available on disc. Kotik > understands Cage. Wergo. > => eMUSIC #WE-144 $19 > > MUSIC FOR MERCE CUNNINGHAM > Here's an important moment in the early history of electronic performance: > John Cage's Cartridge Music (1960) for phonograph cartridges and amplified > small objects, played by David Tudor, Michael Pugliese, and Takehisa Kosugi. > This performance is gentle yet somehow "crunchy." Also Five Stone Wind > (1988) with Tudor, Pugliese and Kosugi playing amplified violin, bamboo > flute, live electronics, tapes, and clay pots. Mode. > => eMUSIC #MO-105 $16 > > ERIK SATIE: SOCRATE & JOHN CAGE: CHEAP IMITATION > A perfect post-modern pairing! Satie's 'Socrate,' performed here in the > original version by Hilke Helling, alto, and Deborah Richards, pianist. And > Cage's 'Cheap Imitation' (1969) for piano, the re-processed version, > performed by Herbert Henck. Wergo. > => eMUSIC #WE-142 $19 > > ETUDES AUSTRALES > Grete Sultan, for whom they were composed, plays the 'Etudes Australes' > (1975), a massive and virtuoso set of piano etudes from the 1970s. Wergo. > => eMUSIC #WE-147-3 $57 > > JOHN CAGE: VIOLIN MUSIC > Paul Zukofsky plays Cage's 'Chorals' (from 'Solos for Voice'), 'Cheap > Imitation' (1969), and 'Freeman Etudes I-VIII' (1980 & 1990). In 'Chorals,' > perhaps Cage's most intensely microtonal piece, Zukofsky shows just how > finely pitches can be played. This version of 'Cheap Imitation,' composed in > consultation with Zukofsky, uses a multi-modal Pythagorean tuning. And the > 'Freeman Etudes' might qualify as the most difficult violin music ever > written. CP2. > => eMUSIC #CP-102 $16 > > SINGING THROUGH > Joan La Barbara sings Cage's vocal music beautifully. There's 'Mirakus' > (1984) on a text by Marcel Duchamp, 'Eight Whiskus' (1984) on a text by Chris > Mann, 'The Wonderful Widow of Eighteen Springs' (1942) and 'Nowth Upon Nacht' > (1984) on text from James Joyce's 'Finnegans Wake,' 'Sonnekus' (1985) on > Biblical and cabaret texts, 'Forever and Sunsmell' (1942) on text by > e.e.cummings, 'Solo for Voice 49' (1970) on text by Henry David Thoreau, > 'Solo for Voice 52' (1970) using vowels from Erik Satie and Thoreau texts, > 'Solo for Voice 67' (1970) using various words, and 'Music for Two (by One)' > (1984) on abstract vocal sounds. New Albion. > => eMUSIC #NA-110 $17 > > JOHN CAGE: ORCHESTRAL WORKS 1 > Finally! '101' (1989), for cooperative musicians without a conductor; > 'Apartment House 1776' (1976), historical musicircus Americana written for > the bicentennial; and 'Ryoanji' (1985), in this version for four soloists > and orchestra. Cage found a new way of writing for orchestra. Mode. > => eMUSIC #MO-118 $16 > > ROARATORIO > One of John Cage's big big big works, composed in 1979, with Cage reading his > text 'Writing for the Second Time Through Finnegans Wake,' Irish musicians > playing and singing, and all the sounds mentioned in "Finnegans Wake" as > assembled by Cage on a 62-track collage tape. Two discs include a > conversation between Cage and Klaus Schoning (who commissioned the work for > the WDR in Cologne) and a solo recording of Cage reading his text. Also two > booklets with essays, conversations, and the text. Mode. > => eMUSIC #MO-108-3 $31 > > JOHN CAGE: FREEMAN ETUDES, BOOKS ONE & TWO > Irvine Arditti plays the first half of this massive virtuoso solo violin work > composed in the late 1970s and again in the late 1980s, written as an example > of the 'hard work' that would be necessary to solve global problems. If > Arditti's virtuosity is an indication, there's hope for the world. Mode. > => eMUSIC #MO-116 $16 > > JOHN CAGE: FREEMAN ETUDES, BOOKS THREE & FOUR > Irvine Arditti plays the second half of this major violin work. It's even > denser, even harder than the first. And again, Arditti plays them with > elegance. Mode. > => eMUSIC #MO-117 $16 > > EUROPERAS 3 & 4 > John Cage wrote: "What is Europera 3 but a big party?" And indeed it is! > Juxtapositions of singing, pianos, old recordings, and all manner of sounds > suggestive of opera. And with 'Europera 4,' all the elements of opera come > together in a big party. Performed by the Long Beach Opera. Mode. > => eMUSIC #MO-112-3 $29 > > EUROPERA 5 > The last of the series of Cage's assemblages of the European opera tradition, > 'Europera 5' (1991) calls for two singers (Martha Herr and Gary Burgess), one > piano (Yvar Mikhashoff), one 78-rpm victrola, one radio (Jan Williams), and > one tape (Don Metz), all of which are combined in such a way that long > silences and hilarious juxtapositions occur. Mode. > => eMUSIC #MO-111 $16 > > JOHN CAGE: COMPLETE STRING QUARTETS, VOLUME 1 > Cage wrote one "early" and three "late" string quartets. The Arditti Quartet > very understandingly plays two of the late works: 'Thirty Pieces for String > Quartet' (1981) and 'Music for Four for String Quartet' (composed as part of > Cage's 'Music For ' series between 1984 and 1987). Mode. > => eMUSIC #MO-114 $16 > > JOHN CAGE: COMPLETE STRING QUARTETS, VOLUME 2 > The Arditti Quartet plays the 'String Quartet in 4 Parts' (1950), an early > transitional piece that floats gently along in its serene and lovely way. > Also the very late 'Four,' which refines, if anything, the stillness of its > predecessor in terms more austere. Mode. > => eMUSIC #MO-115 $16 > > THE NUMBER PIECES 1 > Three very late, rarified, sparse chamber pieces by John Cage. 'Four3' > (1991), based on Satie's 'Vexations' and composed for Merce Cunningham, is > scored for twelve rainsticks, two pianos (one inside the hall and one > outside) and violin playing held notes. 'One5' (1990) is a solo piano work > and 'Two6' (1992) is a piece for violin and piano, recorded by Martine Joste > and Ami Flammer, the musicians Cage wrote it for. Mode. > => eMUSIC #MO-119 $16 > > FIFTY-EIGHT > One of John Cage's very last pieces, 'Fifty-Eight' was written for the > Pannonisches Blasorchester, an Austrian/Hungarian wind band, to perform it in > the Renaissance courtyard of the Landhaushof in Graz. The porticos around > the courtyard consist of fifty-eight arches. One wind player was stationed > in each arch. Hat Hut. > => eMUSIC #HA-241 $19 > > > =============================== HOW TO ORDER > > To order discs, contact eMUSIC via email, fax, regular mail, telephone, by > personal appointment -- or, in extreme cases, by carrier pigeon. Give us a > list of the CDs you'd like to buy, and mention their eMUSIC catalog numbers. > Please bear in mind that certain prices may change and that some discs are > available only in relatively small numbers. We'll fill orders at current > prices as we receive them. > > Tell us your address (including email) and phone numbers, and where you'd > like the discs shipped (if it's different from your mailing address). > > Please pay in advance. You can calculate the amount of your payment as > follows: > > 1. Add together the prices of the discs you'd like to buy. If you're a > member of the INNER CIRCLE, take a 10% discount from the sum. If you're a > member of ICMA or SEAMUS, take a 5% discount from the sum. Discounts are not > cumulative. > > 2. Then add the appropriate amount for shipping (priority mail) and > handling. If a disc is listed in the format LO-100, for example, count it as > one disc for shipping. If there's an extra number at the end, as in > "ST-100-3," for example -- the "3" at the end means that for shipping > purposes, the package should be counted as three discs. Use the following > table to calculate shipping/handling costs: > > North America & Mexico: First disc $2.00, each additional disc $1.00. > South America: First disc $3.00, each additional disc $1.50. > Europe: First disc $4.00, each additional disc $2.00. > Asia/Australasia: First disc $5.00, each additional disc $2.50. > > 3. Then, if you live in New York State, add 8% sales tax to the total. (New > York State requires that we also charge sales tax on shipping and handling > charges.) > > We accept credit cards (Mastercard and VISA). We also accept checks, bank > drafts and money orders -- but only in US$, drawn on a US bank. > > If you're paying by credit card, we need your name (as it appears on the > card), your card number, the expiration date of the card, and your billing > address and phone number (in case we need to contact you). Please give us > credit card information by fax, phone, or regular mail, (rather than email) > to protect the confidentiality of your information. After you've provided us > with your credit card information, you can email your orders -- and just tell > us to charge your card. > > Place your order by -- > > Email to: eMusc@aol.com > Fax to: (518) 434-0308 > Telephone to: (518) 434-4110 > Hard mail and carrier pigeon to: eMUSIC, 116 North Lake Avenue, Albany NY > 12206, USA > > > =============================== ABOUT eMUSIC > > eMUSIC is a worldwide service that gives you easy, direct-mail access to one > of the most comprehensive selections of compact discs of experimental, > exceptional, and/or electronic music. Wherever you live, eMUSIC brings you > CDs that may be hard to find, discs published by small companies or > independent composers or performers, even recordings you may not have known > existed. > > How does it work? Different eMUSIC catalogs are circulated in different > media. If you're on our email list, we'll send you a brief catalog of > selected discs every few weeks. If you're on our hard-mail list, we'll send > you a catalog of selected discs every season. If you have access to the > World Wide Web, you'll find (as of this fall), an up-to-date list our > offerings on our Home Page. Let us know how you'd prefer to receive our > information. > > However you receive them, you'll find our eMUSIC catalogs filled with > electronic music history, unusual sounds, new ways of combining words and > music, new approaches to improvisation, computer music, interactive music, > portraits of composers, interpreters of 20th-century...and more! Our goal is > to make available every disc of experimental, exceptional, and electronic > music. > > =============================== ABOUT THE INNER CIRCLE > > If you're serious about all this, consider joining the INNER CIRCLE. You'll > receive: > > - A ten percent discount on all disc purchases. > - Special INNER CIRCLE disc offers. > - Free access to our search and special-order service. > > If you're a music professional, there are other benefits as well. Ask about > them. > > eMUSIC is a program of Electronic Music Foundation (EMF). A not-for-profit > organization in New York State, USA, EMF exists to disseminate information > and materials related to the history and development of electronic music. > > To join the eMUSIC INNER CIRCLE, make a one-time gift of $100 to EMF. If you > act now, you'll also become a Charter Subscriber to EMF. > > ===================================================== > > eMUSIC and Inner Circle are trademarks of Electronic Music Foundation, Inc. > > Electronic Music Foundation > 116 North Lake Avenue > Albany NY 12206 > USA > Voice: (518) 434-4110 > Fax: (518) 434-0308 > email: eMusF@aol.com > > #### > ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Form fascinates when one no longer has the force Dept. of English | to understand force from within itself. That SUNY Albany | is, to create." -- Jacques Derrida Albany NY 12222 | tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | "Poetry is the promise of a language." email: | -- Friedrich Holderlin joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 09:51:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: eMUSIC SPECIALS (fwd) & here's a last eMUSIC cat with info --pierre Forwarded message: > From Emusc@aol.com Mon Dec 18 21:50:05 1995 > From: Emusc@aol.com > Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 18:36:01 -0500 > Message-ID: <951218183555_57763936@emout06.mail.aol.com> > To: Emfnet@aol.com > Subject: eMUSIC SPECIALS > > > WELCOME TO eMUSIC! > =============================== December 1995 > SPECIAL OFFERS... AND A TRIBUTE. > > Read below for HOW TO ORDER and other information. > > Coming next in January: 'Discs I have Known and Loved' by Warren Burt. And a > special listing of many wonderful new discs to start the New Year. > > > =============================== A TRIBUTE > SALVATORE MARTIRANO: 1927-1995 > > Martirano's music is wonderful, powerful. One hears the liveliness of jazz, > the lyricism of Italian opera, the cutting edge of an extraordinary > intelligence and talent. He was also a pioneer -- the Sal-Mar Construction > was one of the earliest of the interactive instruments and quite an > incredible invention. Here are two CDs with his music. > > A SALVATORE MARTIRANO RETROSPECTIVE: 1962-92 > This disc includes the 'Sal-Mar Construction' (1972), an amazing interactive > instrument built by Martirano and others at the University of Illinois > between 1969 and 1972. Also: 'Underworld' (1965), for actors, percussion, > electronics, sax; 'L's G.A.' (1968) for gassed-masked politico, helium bomb, > and sounds on tape; 'SATBehind Demo' (1992), which combine the Kyma system > with Martirano's SAL (Sound And Logic) software; and other pieces. CDCM. > (=> eMUSIC #CE-124: ordered individually, $16) > > SOUND ENCOUNTERS > Performances by the Cleveland Chamber Symphony conducted by Edwin London, > including Salvatore Martirano's 'LON/Dons' (1989) for chamber orchestra and > saxophone, the solo performed here by Howie Smith, saxophonist. It's a > powerful piece, composed, according to the liner notes, "by means of an > unusual combination of computer programs, improvisation at the keyboard and > 'premeditated composition.'" Also on the disc: Libby Larsen's 'What the > Monster Saw' (1987), Bernard Rands' 'London Serenade' (1988), and Roger > Reynolds' 'The Dream of Infinite Rooms' (1986). GM. > (=> eMUSIC #GM-100: ordered individually, $16) > > => eMUSIC #SL-100: BOTH MARTIRANO DISCS FOR $28 > > > =============================== DEEP LISTENING > > Pauline Oliveros' new label called Deep Listening is off to a great start > with three very different and stunning discs. If this group indicates things > to come, we can look forward to another fine source for CDs of new music. > > JOEL CHADABE: AFTER SOME SONGS > Chadabe uses Intelligent Music's M software and improvises with Jan Williams > playing percussion, Bruno Spoerri playing saxophone, and Reto Weber playing > udu drums and other instruments. The compositions are mostly abstractions of > jazz classics. For example, 'Valentine' is based on 'My Funny Valentine', > 'Echoes of Brazil' is based on 'Corcovado', 'Elusive Lady' is based on > 'Stella By Starlight', and more. The sounds are beautiful, agreeable, smooth, > as Chadabe puts it, "a lyrical surface to an underlying complexity." Deep > Listening. > (=> eMUSIC #DL-100: ordered individually, $16) > > R.I.P. HAYMAN: ON THE WAY... > This is a reflective, quiet, peaceful, somewhat mysterious yet always > arresting sound process. Hayman calls it "a contemplative environment." John > Cage, listening to it in 1991 in Hayman's studio, said "It is very beautiful > what I am hearing now." It is about a near-death experience. In Hayman's > words: "How does death sound? Do our senses survive our passing? Can we hear > eternity?" Deep Listening. > (=> eMUSIC #DL-101: ordered individually, $16) > > TOSCA SALAD > The Deep Listening Band strikes again with a "tossed salad of a CD," a > variety of free improvisations recorded at various concerts. The Band's > regular members are Pauline Oliveros playing accordion, David Gamper playing > piano and organ, Stuart Dempster playing trombone and dijeridu, and everyone > playing with the Expanded Instrument System, a sound-transformation system > developed by Oliveros and associates through the years. In the improvisations > on this disc, the Band's guest artists include Julie Lyon Rose, voice; Fritz > Hauser, percussion; Urs Leimgruber, saxophone; Ben Neill, mutantrumpet; Joe > McPhee, reeds, pocket trumpet; Joe Giardullo, reeds, flute; and Ellen > Fullman, Nigel Jacobs, and Elise Gould, members of the Long String Instrument > Band. Deep Listening. > (=> eMUSIC #DL-102: ordered individually, $16) > > => eMUSIC #SL-101: ALL THREE DEEP LISTENING DISCS FOR $39 > > > =============================== FREDERIC RZEWSKI > > Rzewski is one of the world's finest pianists and most interesting composers. > Here is a special offering from O.O. Discs. > > A DECADE: ZEITGEIST PLAYS RZEWSKI > A ten year collaboration by the virtuoso ensemble Zeitgeist and the American > composer Frederic Rzewski has resulted in four provocative works including > 'Spots', 'Wails', 'The Lost Melody' and the sixty-five, 15 second pieces of > 'Crusoe'. All World Premiere Recordings. O.O. > (=> eMUSIC #OO-113: ordered individually, $16) > > FREDERIC RZEWSKI: THE PIANO MUSIC > Pianist Anthony DeMare presents four works spanning 15 years of Rzewski's > piano writing, including 'Winnesboro Cotton Mill Blues', 'Piano Pieces No. > IV', 'Piano Sonata', and the recent 'De Profundis', composed for DeMare. OO. > (=> eMUSIC #OO-114: ordered individually, $16) > > THE PEOPLE UNITED WILL NEVER BE DEFEATED > A rare Japanese import of what many critics consider to be the classic > recording of one of Rzewski's most noted works. This solo piano work is > performed by Yuji Takahashi piano and includes the complete 36 variations on > 'iEl Pueblo Unido Jamas Sera Vencido' impeccably recorded by Yukio Kojima. > OO Import. > (=> eMUSIC #OO-124: ordered individually, $19) > > => eMUSIC #SL-102: ALL THREE RZEWSKI DISCS FOR $39 > > =============================== HOW TO ORDER > > Contact eMUSICx by email, fax, regular mail, or telephone, with a list of the > CDs you'd like to buy. Bear in mind that certain prices may change and that > some discs are available only in relatively small numbers. We'll fill orders > at current prices as we receive them. > > Tell us your address (including email) and phone numbers, and where you'd > like the discs shipped. > > Please pay in advance. You can calculate the amount of your payment as > follows: > > 1. Add together the prices of the discs you'd like to buy. INNER CIRCLE > subscribers, take a 10% discount from the sum. ICMA or SEAMUS members, take a > 5% discount from the sum. Discounts are not cumulative. > > 2. Then add the appropriate amount for shipping (priority mail) and > handling. If a disc is listed in the format LO-100, for example, count it as > one disc for shipping. If there's an extra number at the end, as in > "ST-100-3," for example -- the "3" at the end means that for shipping > purposes, the package should be counted as three discs. Use the following > table to calculate shipping/handling costs: > > North America & Mexico: First disc $2.00, each additional disc $1.00. > South America: First disc $3.00, each additional disc $1.50. > Europe: First disc $4.00, each additional disc $2.00. > Asia/Australasia: First disc $5.00, each additional disc $2.50. > > 3. If you live in New York State, add 8% sales tax to the total. (New York > State requires that we also charge sales tax on shipping and handling > charges.) > > We accept credit cards (Mastercard and VISA). We also accept checks, bank > drafts and money orders -- but only in US$, drawn on a US bank. If you're > paying by credit card, we need your name (as it appears on the card), your > card number, expiration date, and your billing address and phone number (in > case we need to contact you). Please give us credit card information by fax, > phone, or regular mail (rather than email) to protect the confidentiality of > your information. Then you can email your orders -- and just tell us to > charge your card. > > Email to: eMUSC@aol.com > Fax to: (518) 434-0308 > Telephone to: (518) 434-4110 > Hard mail and carrier pigeon to: eMUSICx, 116 North Lake Avenue, Albany NY > 12206, USA > > =============================== ABOUT eMUSIC > > eMUSICx is a worldwide service that gives you easy, direct-mail access to one > of the most comprehensive selections of compact discs of experimental, > exceptional, and/or electronic music. Wherever you live, eMUSIC brings you > CDs that may be hard to find, discs published by small companies or > independent composers or performers, even recordings you may not have known > existed. > > eMUSICx catalogs are circulated via email, hard-mail list, and (very soon) > the World Wide Web. Let us know how you'd prefer to receive information. And > if you're serious about this, please consider joining the INNER CIRCLE. > You'll receive discounts on disc purchases, INNER CIRCLE disc offers, and > other benefits. To join the eMUSIC INNER CIRCLE, make a one-time > tax-deductible gift of $100 to Electronic Music Foundation (EMF). > > eMUSICx is a program of EMF. A not-for-profit organization in New York > State, USA, EMF exists to disseminate information and materials related to > the history and development of electronic music. Contact us for more > information. > > =============================== > eMUSIC and Inner Circle are trademarks of Electronic Music Foundation, Inc. > > Electronic Music Foundation > 116 North Lake Avenue > Albany NY 12206 > USA > > Voice: (518) 434-4110 > Fax: (518) 434-0308 > Email: EMusF@aol.com > > ### > ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Form fascinates when one no longer has the force Dept. of English | to understand force from within itself. That SUNY Albany | is, to create." -- Jacques Derrida Albany NY 12222 | tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | "Poetry is the promise of a language." email: | -- Friedrich Holderlin joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 09:07:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marjorie Perloff Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 21 Dec 1995 to 22 Dec 1995 In-Reply-To: <199512230505.AAA07761@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Hank Lazer reminds me that everyone on this list who will be at MLA should visit various booths and reminds the people there how many of us are interested in the poetry/poetics they publish. Nicole Mitchell at Alabama is terrific. At Northwestern, ask for Susan Harris; she is the editor who is publishing Hank's own book, Bruce Andrews's essays, and yours truly's reissue of DANCE OF THE INTELLECT and has worked with me on other projects (Poetic License and Poetics of Indeterminacy). Alan Thomas at Chicago is very much interested in new poetries/poetics. Damon Kruzowksi will be there at Exact Change (has a booth this year) and Doug Messerli will have a Sun & Moon booth. New Directions, distributed by Norton, not only has a booth but there's the Norton Party 6.30-8.30 in the State Room, Level Two at the Fairmont Hotel--that's on the 28th. New Directions is bringing out Susan Howe's new book among other things. So: we can all run around the book exhibit and meet one another! Marjorie Perloff PS: I forgot Wesleyan, Irene McWilliam is the point person and of course they've just published Joan Retallack's wonderful MUSICAGE, Leslie Scalapino etc etc. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 09:49:39 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Season's Gratings In-Reply-To: <199512230505.AAA07761@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Along with all that good reading mentioned here, let me here mention an enjoyable collection of songs -- _Bummed Out Christmas_ from Rhino Records get the CD,,, it has more songs than the tape -- Includes such memorable delights as "Santa Got a DWI," "Christmas in Jail," and "Chritmas Eve Can Kill You" a perfect antidote to Bill Moyers's poetry shows ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 23:22:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Galen Cope Subject: Re: Season's Gratings In league w/ Aldon's recommendation: Max Roach put out a recording last year on Soul Note records (Italy) that features, among other things, the poetry (or Roach's adapted versions of the poetry) of Bruce McMarion Wright. Wright was also a fairly well- known judge in NYC in the 70-80's -- particularly be- cause of his vociferous and active advocacy of Black and Hispanic rights and rights for the poor... Anyway, the disk features a performance of Wright's "It's Christmas Again" which is absolutely stunning, accompanied by Roach's percussion, Odean Pope on tenor and voice, Cecil Bridgewater on trumpet, and Tyrone Brown on bass. The disk is called "It's Christmas Again" and is certainly worth checking out... Best of holiday cheer (and good conferencing to those at MLA... -Stephen Cope ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Dec 1995 22:43:01 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Brannen Subject: Re: Ted Berrigan Libbie, In case you're not familiar with it, _Talking In Tranquility: Interviews with Ted Berrigan_ (eds. Stephen Ratcliffe and Leslie Scalapino, Avenue B / O Press) should prove useful. >I'm beginning work on a dissertation chapter on Ted Berrigan and Frank >O'Hara and wondering if anyone out there is currently working on >Berrigan. Beyond the "Nice to See You" homage collection, a great short >piece by >Barrett Watten and an article by Joel Lewis, I haven't found much writing >on Berrigan's poetry. "Nice to See You" is composed mostly of memoirs >(Charles Berstein's "Writing Against the Body" is a notable exception). The >fact that memoir is still the dominant mode of commentary on these two >poets, and perhaps the "New York School" in general, seems relevant in >itself. But what about the poetry? > >Has Berrigan already been discussed in this forum? I'm new to the list and >would like to hear what people are doing. > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 08:15:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: MB: Levinas (fwd) This sad note just in -- havent been able to verify it either -- more as I find out -- Pierre Forwarded message: > From owner-blanchot@jefferson.village.virginia.edu Tue Dec 26 07:53:40 1995 > Message-Id: > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 13:17:16 +0100 > To: blanchot@jefferson.village.virginia.edu > From: Daniel Kern > Subject: MB: Levinas > Sender: owner-blanchot@jefferson.village.virginia.edu > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: blanchot@jefferson.village.virginia.edu > > It seems that Levinas died yesterday. I haven't seen the paper yet; I'll > let you know what it says. > > Dan > > > ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Form fascinates when one no longer has the force Dept. of English | to understand force from within itself. That SUNY Albany | is, to create." -- Jacques Derrida Albany NY 12222 | tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | "Poetry is the promise of a language." email: | -- Friedrich Holderlin joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 12:48:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Levinas In-Reply-To: from "Charles Bernstein" at Dec 17, 95 02:17:36 pm Clipped from the French on-line news service (sorry, no time for translation) --Pierre "Autre deces celui du philosophe francais Emmanuel Levinas, mort a l'age de 90 ans ce lundi matin. Inspire par la philopsophie d'Heidegger et d'Husserl, Emmanuel Levinas enseigna aux univer- sites de Poitiers puis de Nanterre. Ce grand penseur du judaisme moderne dirigea avec son epouse l'Ecole normale israelite orien- tale de Paris." ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Form fascinates when one no longer has the force Dept. of English | to understand force from within itself. That SUNY Albany | is, to create." -- Jacques Derrida Albany NY 12222 | tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | "Poetry is the promise of a language." email: | -- Friedrich Holderlin joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 14:01:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Levinas In-Reply-To: from "Charles Bernstein" at Dec 17, 95 02:17:36 pm The French newspaper LIBERATION reproduced the following piece by Maurice Blanchot in today's edition, as hommage to Levinas. (Again, sorry, but no time for translation) -- Pierre _Levinas vu par Blanchot_ Extrait de Notre Compagne clandestine, que Maurice Blanchot ecrivit pour son ami dans _Textes pour Emmanuel Levinas_, paru in 1980 (Jean-Michel Place Editeur): "Tous, honteusement, glorieusement. Philosophes, nous le sommes tous, honteusement, glorieusement, par abus, par defaut et surtout en soumettant le philosophique (terme choisi pour eviter l'emphase de la philosophie) a une mise en question si radicale qu'il faut toute la philosophie pour la soutenir. Mais j'ajouterai [...] que, des que j'ai rencontre--rencontre heureuse, au sens le plus fort--, il y a plus de cinquante ans, Emmanuel Levinas, c'est avec une sorte d'evidence que je me suis persuade que la philosophie etait la vie meme, la jeunesse meme, dans sa passion demesuree, cependant raisonnable, se renouvelant sans cesse ou soudainement par l'eclat de pensees toutes nouvelles, enigmatiques, ou de noms encore inconnus qui brilleraient plus tard prodigieusement. La philosophie serait notre compagne a jamais, de jour, de nuit, fut-ce en perdant son nom, devenant litterature, savoir, non-savoir, ou s'absentant, notre amie clandestine dont nous respections--aimions--ce qui ne nous permettait pas d'etre lies e elle, tout en pressentant qu'il n'y avait rien d'eveille en nous, de vigilant juque dans le sommeil, qui ne fut du a son amitie difficile. ... philosophie ou l'amitie. Mais la philosophie n'est precisement pas une allegorie [...]." ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Form fascinates when one no longer has the force Dept. of English | to understand force from within itself. That SUNY Albany | is, to create." -- Jacques Derrida Albany NY 12222 | tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | "Poetry is the promise of a language." email: | -- Friedrich Holderlin joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 23:02:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Emmanuel Levinas (1905-1995) [Reuters] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 22:18:14 -0500 From: Ben Friedlander > From: C-reuters@clari.net (Reuters) > Subject: Levinas dead, hailed among greatest philosophers > Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 7:10:32 PST > > PARIS (Reuter) - The World Jewish Congress Tuesday paid > tribute to French Jewish philosopher Emmanuel Levinas who died > earlier this week at the age of 90. > It hailed the Lithuanian-born writer as one of the greatest > contemporary philosophers who ``never ceased to pursue his quest > for a world morale following the Holocaust.'' > Levinas died Monday in Paris of an heart ailment. > Born in 1905 in Lithuania, he lived in Ukraine at the time > of the Soviet revolution and later studied in Germany and taught > in France, combining German, Russian, French and Jewish > cultures. > His mentors were Germans Edmund Husserl and Martin Heidegger > and Israeli Martin Buber. His main work was ``Totality and > Infinity,'' published in 1961. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 13:20:45 -0500 Reply-To: BERNSTEI@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Welcome to Poetics (revised) I usually send this "welcome" message out to each new Poetics subscriber, but I have fallen behind in the past weeks, so I am sending it out to the whole list as it may be useful to a few others as well. (There are currently 297 Poetics subscribers.) This welcome message is posted at the EPC "poetics" page. (I've also recently posted the syllabi from my graduate seminars on the EPC; you can find them through my "author" page or at "poeitcs".) Let me remind you all, once again, to post information on your recent books and other publications, including ones you have edited. Please include full ordering information including address and price. %&*^%^&$^%#HAPPY%&%^&#@!$!$%#$^*%&*(_ NEW ~<>?":"{}{}++_(YEAR!&(&*^&%&%&^$%$ Rev. 12-19-95 ____________________________________________________________________ Welcome to the Poetics List & The Electronic Poetry Center at the State University of New York - Buffalo ____________________________________________________________________ http://writing.upenn.edu/epc ____________________________________________________________________ _______Contents___________ 1. About the Poetics List 2. Subscriptions 3. Who's Subscribed 4. Digest Option 5. When you'll be away 6. Archives of the Poetics List 7. To Subscribe to RIF/T 8. Interfaces, HTML, URL 9. The Electronic Poetry Center (EPC) 10. How to Reach the EPC 11. Poetics Archives at EPC 12. Publishers & Editors Read This! _______________________________ Appendix I: Some Links via EPC Appendix II: Archives (Alternate) [This document was prepared by Charles Bernstein (bernstei@ubvms.cc.buffalo. edu) and Loss Pequen~o Glazier (lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu).] ____________________________________________________________________ 1. About the Poetics List Please note that this is a private list and information about the list should not be posted to other lists or directories of lists. The idea is to keep the list to those with specific rather than general interests, and also to keep the scale of the list small and the volume managable. Word-of-mouth (and its electronic equivalents) seems to be working fine: please feel free to invite people you know to sign-up. It is easier for me if they sign-up by themselves AND send me (bernstei@ubvms) a note telling me how they heard about the list. I will send them *this* document in reply. Please contact Charles Bernstein (the "listowner") if you have any questions about this policy. ____________________________________________________________________ 2. Subscriptions The list has open subscriptions. You can subscribe (sub) or unsubscribe (unsub) by sending a one-line message, with no subject line, to: listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu the one-line message should say: unsub poetics {or} sub poetics Jill Jillway (replacing Jill Jillway with your own name; but note: do not use your name to unsub) I will be sent a notice of all subscription activity. ____________________________________________________________________ 3. Who's Subscribed To see who is subscribed to Poetics, send an e-mail message to listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu; leave the "Subject" line of the e-mail message blank. In the body of your e-mail message type: review poetics THIS IS A GOOD WAY TO GET CURRENT ADDRESS! ____________________________________________________________________ 4. Digest Option The Poetics List can send a large number of individual messages to your account to each day! If you would prefer to receive ONE message each day, which would include all messages posted to the list for that day, you can now use the digest option: Send this one-line message (no subject line) to listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu set poetics digest NOTE:!! Send this message to "listserv" not to Poetics or as a reply to this message!! You can switch back to individual messages by sending this messagage: set poetics mail ____________________________________________________________________ 5. When you'll be away You can temporarily turn off your mail by sending a message: set poetics nomail & turn it on again with: set poetics mail ____________________________________________________________________ 6. Archives of the Poetics List There are two ways to get archives. The easiest way is to use the archives of the list at the Electronic Poetry Center (EPC), for which see section 11 below. The other is described in Appendix II. ____________________________________________________________________ 7. To Subscribe to RIF/T To subscribe to RIF/T, the e-poetry magazine at UB's Poetics Program: Send an e-mail message to listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu. Leave the "Subject" line of the e-mail message blank. In the body of your e-mail message type: subscribe e-poetry John Milton replacing your real name for "John Milton" You will receive a confirmation of your subscription soon thereafter. Note: RIF/T is also available via the Electronic Poetry Center. Increasingly it is a richer experience to read RIF/T online because, at the EPC, it features hypertextual links, weaving related and disparate texts, hypertextual chapbooks, and graphical (and sound) files that cannot be mailed in ascii form. Mailing of ascii versions is continued through subscription; it is a good way to stay in touch since subscribers receive Tables of Contents and other RIF/T information, as well as some texts. Suscribers to RIF/T also receive the occasionally-issued _EPC.News_, the Electronic Poetry Center newsletter. ____________________________________________________________________ 8. Interfaces, HTML, URL (EPC Preface) Before describing the resources of the EPC and how to gain access to it, it is useful to understand a few Internet concepts. 8.1 Interface The Web can be access through an ascii or a graphical interface. An ascii interface provides access through _screens_ of information with links to other areas appearing as highlighted text; Mosaic is a graphical interface basically superimposed on the Web structure that offers images, sound, video, and allows you to use your mouse as a navigational tool. The EPC is accessible through any of these interfaces. It is presently evolving strongly towards exclusive Web/Mosaic access. Even as activities converge, it is also the time of divergent interfaces. I am often surprised by the number of our contributors and participants who do not even have gopher access. Most people, we figure, have some sort of Web access. 8.2 HTML The standard for Web/Mosaic documents is the markup protocol called html. These are imbedded codes that you will see once in a while when you download an html document. These codes give instructions to the software about highlighting, fonts, and screen layout, as well as providing for the _hot links_ that make possible Web/Mosaic navigation. 8.3 URL A URL, a "uniform resource locator," is to the Internet what a social security number is to a person. In a web/mosaic interace, the "go to URL" option will specify a specific and unique Internet address for you to go to. ____________________________________________________________________ 9. What is the Electronic Poetry Center? The mission of this World-Wide Web based electronic poetry center is to serve as a hypertextual gateway to the extraordinary range of activity in formally innovative writing in the United States and the world. The Center provides access to numerous electronic resources in the new poetries including RIF/T and other electronic poetry journals, the POETICS List archives, an AUTHOR library of electronic poetic texts, and direct connections to numerous related electronic RESOURCES. For texts housed at the Electronic Poetry Center, texts are "definitive" texts inasmuch as, prior to posting, they have been approved by their producers. JOURNALS distributed by the EPC include: DIU / Albany EPC.News / Buffalo Experioddi(cyber)cist / Florence, AL Inter\face / Albany, NY Passages: A Technopoetics Journal / Albany, NY Poemata - Canadian Poetry Assoc. / London, Ontario (Info)/ RIF/T: Electronic Space for New Poetry, Prose, & Poetics / Buffalo Segue Foundation/Roof Book News / New York TREE: TapRoot Electronic Edition / Lakewood, Ohio We Magazine / Santa Cruz Witz / Studio City, CA The Center also provides information about contemporary print little magazines and SMALL PRESSES engaged in poetry and poetics. The Poetry & Poetics DOCUMENT Archive provides access to a number of documents of use to poets, teachers, and researchers. Here you will find essay material and recent obituaries. The EPC also presently offers GALLERY, SOUND, EXHIBITS, and an ANNOUNCEMENTS area. The Electronic Poetry Center is administered by Loss Glazier and Kenneth Sherwood in collaboration with Charles Bernstein. If you have comments or suggestions about sites to be added to the Center, do not hesitate to contact Loss Pequen~o Glazier, lolpoet@ acsu.buffalo.edu or Kenneth Sherwood, e-poetry@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu ____________________________________________________________________ 10. How to reach the EPC Via the World-Wide Web, the Center can be reached at http://writing.upenn.edu/epc (no spaces in the address) Check with your system administrator if you have problems with access. Also ask about setting a "bookmark" through your system for quick and easy access to the Center when you invoke your interface. ____________________________________________________________________ 11. Poetics Archives via EPC Go to the EPC and select Poetics from the opening screen. Follow the links to Poetics Archives. You may browse the archives by month and year or search them for specific information. Your interface will allow you to print or download any of these files. ____________________________________________________________________ 12. Publishers & Editors Read This! PUBLISHERS & EDITORS: Our listings of poetry and poetics information is open and available to you. We are trying to make access to printed publications as easy as possible to our users and ENCOURAGE you to participate! Send a list of your press/publications to lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu with the words EPC Press Listing in the subject line. You may also send materials on disk. Though files marked up with html are our goal, ascii files are perfectly acceptable. Send us extended information on new publications (including any back cover copy and sample poems) as well as complete catalogs/backlists (including excerpts from reviews, sample poems, etc.). Be sure to include full information for ordering--including prices and addresses and phone numbers both of the press and any distributors. Initially, you might want to send short anouncements of new publications directly to the Poetics list as subscribers do not always (or ever) check the EPC; in your message please include full information for ordering. If you have a fuller listing at EPC, you might also mention that in any Poetics posts. ____________________________________________________________________ Appendix I: Some Links Provided by the EPC Alternative-X Basil Bunting Poetry Centre (Durham, England) [Informational] Best-Quality Audio Web Poems (Rhode Island) Carma Bums 'Tour of Words' CICNET Electronic Journal Archive Institute for Advanced Technology in the Humanities (Virginia) Internet Poetry Archive (North Carolina) Michigan Electronic Text Archive Nous Refuse Discussion List (Illinois) Postmodern Culture (North Carolina) Whole Earth 'Lectronic Magazine ____________________________________________________________________ Appendix II: Alternate Method for Receiving Poetics Archives You may also receive Poetics archives by e-mail, though the language is somewhat arcane. To receive postings for a particular month, for example, send an e-mail message to listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu leave the subject line of the message blank and in the body of the message type: get poetics.log9505 f=mail Replace 95 (two digits) with the year and 05 (two digits) for the month you seek. For a complete list of available back files, send the message index poetics f=mail ____________________________________________________________________ END OF POETICS LIST WELCOME ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 17:02:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Season's Gratings In response to aldon's post--- I remember this kinda classic-punk sounding song called "Christmas In reverse"--- Does anyody know who did it? Or where I could find it? Thanks, chris stroffolino ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 00:07:41 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Perez Subject: O books? read somewhere about Leslie Scalapino being involved with a press called O books that publishes young innovative types its not listed in EPC's group of Small Presses anyone know where I can get some info? a catalogue? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 00:25:16 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: O books? James, from the innards of _Values Chauffeur You_ by Andrew Levy, from O Books and well worth the read... O Books 5729 Clover Drive Oakland, CA 94618 It also lists SPD as a distributor 1814 San Pablo Avenue, Berkeley, CA 94702 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 04:42:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Smith Subject: Re: O books? <> James Perez James: O Press titles are carried by Small Press Distribution: 1814 San Pablo Ave. Berkeley, CA 94702-1624. (510) 549-3336, Fax (510) 549-2201. I believe the address for the press is still: 5729 Clover Drive Oakland, CA 94618 Some of my favorite O titles include Pat Reed's _Kismet_, Bob Grenier's _Phantom Anthems_, Danielle Colbert's _It Then_ (trans. by Norma Cole), Ben Friedlander's _Time Rations_, Ted Pearson's _Catenary Odes_, Aaron Shurin's _A's Dream_, Ted Berrigan's _A Certain Slant Of Light_, Norman Fischer's _Turn Left In Order To Turn Right_, & Jerry Ratch's _Light_. Others no doubt wd have a different list... good luck & enjoy! Charles Smith ps... almost forgot the recently issued Alice Notley, _Close To Me & Closer... (The Language Of Heaven) and Desamere_ which is still buried unread under stacks of books, but what I've heard her reading the past year, which was terrific, was I believe from this mss. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 05:05:29 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: O books? >read somewhere about Leslie Scalapino being involved with a press called O >books that publishes young innovative types > >its not listed in EPC's group of Small Presses > >anyone know where I can get some info? a catalogue? O Books 5729 Clover Dr. Oakland CA 94618 (also dist. by SPD...) recent releases include _Memory Play_ by Carla Harryman, _MOB_ by Abigail Child, & _Collision Center_ by Randall Potts. backlist includes the occasional O anthology series (4 so far, i think) edited by Leslie Scalapino; 2 Berrigan titles (his final collection _A Certain Slant of Sunlight, and _Talking in Tranquility, a collection of interviews) recently asked after; and books by Jessica Grim, Ben Friedlander, Norman Fisher, Alan Davies, Fanny Howe, Camile Roy, &&... lbd ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 08:28:23 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Janet S. Gray" Subject: My book/Critical Matrix (journal) In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 28 Dec 1995 00:06:03 -0500 from Responding to Charles's reminder to post notices of our own publications here: My book, _A Hundred Flowers_ (Thumbscrew Press, 1993), is somewhat old news by now but is available for $11.95 from Small Press Distribution. I want to let you all know too about a journal for which I'm currently managing editor - _Critical Matrix: The Princeton Journal of Women, Gender, and Culture_. It publishes one or two groupings of poems in most issues, alongside scholarly and creative/critical prose across several disciplines. We're currently collecting submissions for a special issue titled "(M)Other Nature" - subtopics including ecofeminism, reproductive technologies, sci fi, borderlands between the natural and the technological. Deadline is March 1. Submissions to Editors, Critical Matrix, Program in Women's Studies, 113 Dickinson Hall, Princeton University, Princeton NJ 08544. If you'd like to see a sample copy, e-mail me personally and I'll see you get one. _Critical Matrix_ is edited by graduate students & over the past several years we've been working hard to make it a 'real' journal, to establish identity & continuity in spite of the fact that editors serve only one to two-year terms. The journal's identity has coalesced most vividly around issues of disciplinarity - looking for work that explores/challenges disciplinary boundaries or falls outside established boundaries. The labors of four generations of grad student editors just got the pay-off of an award from the Council of Editors of Learned Journals. Janet Gray jsgray@pucc.princeton.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 17:19:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Larry Price Subject: Re: O books I would also recommend the random eye stay alert for O's forthcoming IN MEMORY OF MY THEORIES, by that parrhesiast-in-the-seat-of-lies, Rod Smith. Even through the fog of typesetting (and the difficulties of reading a text while designing and setting it are legion), I already love this book, playful and utterly serious. The titles alone keep me up at night. The vagaries of designers being what they are, nonetheless IN MEMORY should be out well in advance of Super Tuesday. Which is, I'm sure, exactly what Mr. Smith had in mind. lp ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 11:11:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Re: O books did git a super tuesday preview of m. smiths ms. myself and predict from this seat that it will go out of print in a hurry because lots of people will want to read it. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 11:23:06 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Gary Sullivan? if anybody has a current email &/or smail address fr gary, could you backchannel 'em to me? seems to have got lost in the shuffle... luigi au462@cleveland.freenet.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 12:58:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: WEB POETRY, RESTRUCTURING LANGUAGE ARTS DEPARTMENTS Comments: cc: dhiggins@csbh.mhv.net 31. December, 1995 Nice to see the POETICS network's so quiet. Gives a body time to ruminate and then say what one has been thinking of. With me it is two things: 1) On the poetics network I would have thought I would see speculations on the present state of literature instead of this constant assertion that this or that is a fine book. Try this: we have seen many explanations of the mess in our literary publishing-high paper costs, poor distribution, a declining economic base of independent stores, lack of widely read news media coverage, etc. With thirty million people or so on the web and capable of getting e-mail and the number growing towards perhaps a quadrupling of that number, e-mail publishing and e-zines are bound to become a more significant factor than they have been, since putting up a web site is cheap. Furthermore, many of those who might otherwise buy books are now buying hardware and software to get onto the web, so that a downturn in book sales can and must be expected at least short term, that aggravating an already difficult situation for the serious book-selling and book-publishing public. We who are "on-line" can access a good site and print out what we like, thus providing ourselves almost for free with good reading matter (assuming one does not wish to read on the screen itself). Leaving aside for now the related questions of how to pay and support the publisher and writer, one wonders what are some characteristics of works which function well on the web? For example, time seems to behave differently in web poems than in on-paper ones. One is impatient to download, one must read in two stages-do I like this text enough to download it, and now I can see it, do I want to keep it? I worry about the cost of being connected to my server (the economic angle), and I can only see one screen-ful at a time. How does poetic language (including visual-poetic language) function in such a context? With TTS (="text to sound") becoming ever more sophisticated and less expensive, therefore more available, the silent web has already begun to be replaced by the talking web. Already I have been invited to submit poetry by myself and my Left Hand Books friends to a "poetry reading on the web." If such a site can be seen in France, Thailand and Brazil, what does this do to the very concept of national literatures? Is it a form of cultural imperialism or is it a force for building the world literary community? Or both? What will all this mean to us as writers, scholars and thinking human beings? 2) On our POETICS NETWORK there is so much academic professionalistic babble that I've found it hard to think about poetics. It has also made me think, as I haven't in years, about how in an ideal world the education of people in our language arts would be structured. Try this: scrap all English and Comp Lit departments. Create two other kinds of departments in their place: Departments of Literature and Literary History (parallel to those in Art and Art History) and Departments of Language Skills (for linguistics, technical, journalistic, English for non-native speakers, basic grammars and remedial writing, etc.). Such a reorganization would allow for the clearing out of the dead wood, retaining the vital and ultimately serve the students and public far better and more realistically than the present set of assumptions does. For example, the present system sets up too many boundaries among English, other languages and social structures in our literary canons. The real world knows no such bounds. Goethe's dictum that "All literature is world literature" applies, especially now. I can read German poems, medieval texts, works by women and blacks, works with which I do not agree and so on and make of them my own; under the present structures, were I to be in academia, I could not share my thoughts about them. "That's not in your department," I would be told-"Don't invade his-or-her territory or you won't get tenure or you'll have to take early retirement." I would therefore be unable to share what was really on my mind and would have to keep my mouth shut. How well I remember Joel Oppenheimer telling me, many years ago when he was teaching, that he hated not being able to teach Wordsworth because he was supposed to focus on teaching his students to write poems! This should change. Perhaps those who are concerned about these matters, in and out of academia, should start a campaign to cause such a restructuring to become normative. We have no time for resentments (presumably we all hate change, especially since we are all so busy and overworked, both in and out of academia). Rather, these are both issues, I believe, which we must consider if we are not all to wind up in the dustbin while the outside world looks for others to deal with these questions. Seriously everybody-how about it? Dick Higgins Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 14:54:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: WEB POETRY, RESTRUCTURING LANGUAGE ARTS DEPARTMENTS In-Reply-To: I totally agree with Dick Higgins' assessment. I see development however not as Web/MOO/etc. sites with applications towards telephony or .wav for example but as a flux constantly mediated by corporate development on one hand and _darknet_ uses on the other. The Web is a bore; MIRC or ThePalace aren't. So it goes. But think of poetics as an emission or spew occupying/ salvaging sites. I track down apps and that's getting impossible; using them, remaining within one or another vortex/t, is foolish. I see my own wrytings appear elsewhere on the Net, often unnamed, fantastic. Irigaray has replaced Cage. On another matter, Dick's completely right about English Departments. We've suffered long enough. And I have constant suspicions about academic professionalism in relation to poetics, except the latter as after the fact and even then how useful? Alan ( http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Images at http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/ )