=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 23:31:38 PST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: chris daniels <kunos@LANMINDS.COM>
Subject: FW: Re: raw stein & cooked sonnets to go
--- On Sun, 31 Mar 1996 20:28:58 -0800 Thomas Bell <tbjn@WELL.COM> wrote:
> Betwixt and between the cooked and the raw
>
> I feel that poetry exists on the edge between the raw and the
>cooked, rather than being one or the other. It is voice in David
>Appelbaum's sense ("Voice that escapes the written or spoken page
>is deeply organic and fraught with the problem of human suffering.").
>It is Susan Griffin's plum ("The plum has been my lover. And I have
>known the plum. Letting the plum into the mind of my body, I will
>always have the taste of sweetness in my memory.") before it is paled
>"In texts and words which will grow more pale the further away they
>are placed from life."
>
>\tom
>
tom ---
thank you for that --- i feel pretty much the same way abt my own writing
i have no set notion of what my writing shld be and if i felt the pressure
to write a sonnet for instance i wld most certainly write a sonnet w/o
a moment's hesitation --- if i felt it to be an honest poem, i wld keep
it, show it to people --- otherwise i'd simply trash it, no matter how
well it tasted raw, cooked or both
and if i ever in my life write one line that sincerely witnesses even
the smallest portion of human suffering, or shows forth my living, i will
die content that i have done something humane, worthy of my aspiration
later
chris
-------------------------------------
christopher daniels <kunos@lanminds.com> 3.31.96 11:31:38 pm
q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they
said anything goes?"
--- charles wuorinen
a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow."
--- george clinton
snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa
voice: 510.524.5972
http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing)
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Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 13:35:31 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: William Northcutt <William.Northcutt@UNI-BAYREUTH.DE>
Subject: books on Blackburn and Bunting???
-- [ From: William Northcutt * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
Do any of you have recommendations for pieces/books of introduction to
Bunting's work and to Paul Blackburn's work? With very limited time to read
this stuff for pleasure, I'm looking for the absolute most lucid bits. Many
thanks en avance, William
william.northcutt@uni-bayreuth.de
--
--------------------------------------------
William Northcutt
Englische Literaturwissenschaft
GWII
Universitaet Bayreuth
95440 Bayreuth, Germany
0921/553577
fax 0921/553641
email: william.northcutt@uni-bayreuth
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 06:55:30 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Alan Sondheim <sondheim@PANIX.COM>
Subject: For Nicanor Parra
In-Reply-To: <9604011135.AA09924@btr0x1.hrz.uni-bayreuth.de>
For Nicanor Parra
I came into cyberspace
in order to look at myself. I would
stand aside from myself and from my fingers.
I would look at language in orderly rows
coming from my mouth. A woman would flow
and she would create a thing. I would rush
into familiar words and at times
in the middle of a conversation
I would run into a conversation. A general
would appear carrying swords and knives and
a warrior. The white screen would never
beckon the dark, nor the grey, the color of
death. Colors poured into a vise a carpenter
would build with letters. The first building
was the building with letters. I have traced
you back, computer through computer, tool
behind tool, entire genealogies at work until
the very beginning. Here, I found
hand-axes starting to strike
metal. The metal was a dagger or a knife and I
could hear speech in the dagger, colors
glistened in the knife. Later,
there would be a wheel, and later, a pulley.
On a ceiling a pulley turned where belts
connected steam to tools milling shanks
for motors, electric relays, turned carbon
for telephones and lamps. Someone spoke
beneath the lamp and all was lost. Electrons
rushed in vacuo; things started turning and
memorized the axe into this space. Then,
I would watch this space, looking for signs
of me. I would look at myself and a woman.
_________________________________________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 07:47:35 -0500
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From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: Spicer and art
In-Reply-To: <199603312252.QAA02560@freedom.mtn.org> from "Charles Alexander"
at Mar 31, 96 04:52:54 pm
I haven't yet been able to find the name of the book of Fran Herndon's
collages, but was reminded that she produced lithographs to accompany
the poems in the Auerhahn edition of _Heads of the Town Up to the
Aether_.
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 10:33:29 +0000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gwyn McVay <gmcvay1@OSF1.GMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Announcing _Broken English_ by Dodie Bellamy & Bob Harrison
Hey Joel,
Still eagerly waiting for my first order, but such a book fiend I'd like to
take you up on your 7-for-5 offer again:
Bellamy/Harrison, _Broken English_
Djuric, _Cosmopolitan Alphabet_
Surakovic, _Pas Tout_
Friedlander, _Anterior Future_
James Sherry, _4 For_
Bill Tuttle, _Epistolary Poems_
Jonathan Brannen, _Glass Man_ etc.
I think this comes to $27--is that right?
Gwyn
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Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 10:41:38 -0500
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From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: new york city talks--saturday
I was unable to get to the Friday night reading at St. Mark's Church, the
(welcome reading) as it was called on the flier. I hope someone will report
in detail. On the roster to read were: Michael Heller, Michael Basinski,
Jeff Derksen, Chris Funkhouser, Joel Kuszai, and Kristin Prevallet (Lisa
Robertson and Cole Swenson were also scheduled, but couldn't make it to the
conference).
Saturday morning's show opened pretty close to the 10 a.m. kickoff time.
Because I'd boiled my head off the day before in the oval conference room
(with the fluorescent ((halogen?)) lights that made a sound as they turned
themselves off to cool), I sat in the other room with the windows on the
park and on University Place to hear the other Poetry and Tradition panel.
Louis Cabri spoke first.. forgive me Louis, but I came in late, mentally.
Lisa Jarnot elaborated on the "rebuilding the wheel" complaint (which,
coincidentally, has often been levelled at the generation best-represented
at the conference). It may be, she said, that some poets are making not
wheels, but toasters, or hockey sticks. One thing is certain, she added, if
they've made a toaster, they have already how to make their wheel. Bill
Luoma read the piece "Tony Door's Neighborhood", about neighborhoods and
subneighborhoods in Brooklyn, published earlier this year on the poetics
list. It was a bold allegorical move. Doug Rothschild opened with a number
from "Fiddler on the Roof", and segued into a "Doing it for the Money"
medley. Chris Stroffolino ought to summarize his piece, because who can
summarize Chris and do him justice? Mark Wallace spoke next, and again, I
hope Mark will reiterate his gist. There was a vigorous debate afterwards,
Kim Lyons, Jennifer Moxley, Lee Ann Brown (I think) and Stephen Rodefer
asking the tough questions. As it grew closer to my panel. Wow, that's a
science-fiction fragment. As it grew closer to my panel, I became less
focused on the discussion, but I remember Douglass Rothschild advising us
that University Place was a far superior poem. There was some echo of Tim
Davis's suggestion the previous day that maybe less poetry should be
produced. I was unsure whether this was a kind of new shakerism or a kind
of self-loathing (in which I was an exciteable participant) induced by
great volume.
The noon panel on poetic forms, featuring Beth Anderson, Steven Farmer,
Jessica Grim, Joel Kuszai and Sean Killian, was very well attended. Someone
can report, yes? Back in poetry and technology, I spoke first about why I
hate computers, why I like the poetics list, how the range qabal works, and
how to teach poetry writing to children using email and irc. Chris
Funkhouser read from his manuscript on poetry, hypertext, and computers.
Brian Kim Stefans talked about using Lotus 1-2-3 to generate sestinas while
he was working at the Museum of Modern Art in the telecommunications
department. Sam Truitt read a very intense piece of 'virtual language',
sort of the verbal equivalent of Stereolab's "Jenny Ondioline" (although
I'm sure that's not Sam's point of reference.. I just grooved into it that
way). Afterwards, there were a few questions for Chris about the production
of the Little Magazine CD rom, a few questions for the panel about the uses
of computer failure, and an exhortation from me to the floor to create hard
copy from all e-mail exchanges. The correspondence must not be lost.
Then it was off to the ear. Elena Alexander read from what seemed to me a
Ron Silliman-influenced piece (in method) about the human body. In a change
of program, Louis Cabri read next--sample of Louis's style: "Caution:
punchline". The calm, modest, un-mugging delivery was not familiar.. ten
knockout lines in a row. Bill Howe came up and just started ranting and
walking around, passing out file cards from his own laserprinted
self-written I Ching. Then everybody around me started doing the same
thing. Stephen Rodefer started shouting, "Please, some of us are trying to
eat!" and "Please, some of us are pregnant!" Rod Smith repeated the line
"Does anybody think that all good art is unengaging?" Howe returned to the
mic and repeated the word "sheep" for a few minutes. A bravura preformance.
Nancy Shaw and Catriona Strang sobered the room up with a work well loaded
with tensions and suggestions, romantic, social, political and economic.
Rodrigo Toscano cleaned up with work about the beach. Now, there's a lot of
work out there about being at the beach, but none I think that gets
Rodrigo's almost Bakhtinian sense of the beach as cultural dialogic, you
know, _a scene_. Which sense he got through my suspicious head by means of
strong (subtle) rhythms shifting quickly into other cadences.
There was a pause of a few hours, and then we reconvened at Ichor, the
Maeght of the future. If you are in the area of 127 W 26, you might stop in
and look at the show. The space was filled to capacity, as usual, and I
could barely hear the designated-Stacy-Doris from the deep north of
Minnesota, Robert Kocik, from the doorway. It sounded good, as if the old
dream of writing as intelligently as Wittgenstein _in an artistic mode_
were not only possible, but fun. As I said later to Fiona Templeton, I
valorize fun. I really couldn't hear a thing until Ben Friedlander, whom
I'd been waiting a couple of years to hear, came on. He opened with a list
of titles of poems he did not plan to read, and then read several of the
best poems I've heard in this new style that seems to be emerging, a
merging of Bruce Andrews' ear and Clark Coolidge's ideas of sequence and
sense. A sort of leaning into the obvious and finding strange new meanings
in deliberation. There was a break. Frustrated by my location just outside
the door, I went to a friend's birthday part and missed what I'm told were
great readings by Melanie Neilson, Kim Rosenfield and I think Jessica Grim.
Phooey, or argh. I think they're all reading at the Big Allis show in May,
though.
It's Bruce Andrews' birthday today. Put him in your thoughts.
Back in time for the party at Segue. Kristin Prevallet and Alan Gilbert
were giving away copies of Swallowing the Scroll, Apex 3 and 4, and many
leave books. I picked up a copy of Kristin's "Mad Sarah" a poem printed for
the conference. If you get the chance, grab a copy. It's cinematic about
the bible, it's good. Joel Kuszai had the Meow books out, I got _Broken
English_ and _Xing_. Bruce Andrews said the next day that he'd never seen
people sitting on the floor at Segue, that he was thinking bongos and
berets were next.
And that was the end of Saturday. Sorry about the lacunae, it was one of
those thousands of cases when greed for experience made me regret I could
only do one thing at a time.
Jordan Davis
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Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 08:18:13 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: Re: Spicer and art
Michael Boughn wrote:
I have a held a book by Fran Herndon consisting of collages she worked
on with Spicer. They're marvelous. I can't remember the name of the
book now. Perhaps Kevin can help. If not, I'm sure it could be tracked
down. As visual evocations of the spirit of Spicer's work, they're
impeccable.
>I haven't yet been able to find the name of the book of Fran Herndon's
>collages, but was reminded that she produced lithographs to accompany
>the poems in the Auerhahn edition of _Heads of the Town Up to the
>Aether_.
This is Kevin Killian speaking. The name of the Herndon book is
"Everything as Expected," by James Herndon, who was then married to Fran
Herndon, and who had gone to UC Berkeley and met Spicer there in the late
forties. Spicer encouraged Fran, Jim's second wife, to send her children
to day school (a rare move in the late fifties) and take up classes at the
SF Art Institute, where she learned how to make lithographs. They then
collaborated on the poems from "Homage to Creeley," which is the first part
of Spicer's book "The Heads of the Town up to the Aether." "Homage to
Creeley" was printed separately, without Herndon's lithos, and Spicer,
dissatisfied, insisted that Auerhahn use her work to accompany his poems in
the complete version of "Heads."
A few years later she began the collages Michael is talking about. During
the 1986 Spicer Conference that Maria and others have recalled, Jim Herndon
gave away for free to attendees the last remaining copies of his book
"Everything as Expected," which is a detailed, kind of quirky, study of the
Spicer/Herndon collaborations. (Dear Aaron Vidaver, that conference was
actually called something like "Jack Spicer Conference/White Rabbit
Symposium," and "Spicer in Context" was only the name of one of the
particular panels.) Last summer, Scott Watson curated the show "In Search
of Orpheus" to accompany the Blaser Conference, and included I think all of
Herndon's lithographs from "Homage to Creeley" and many of the so-called
"sports collages" of the slightly later period. Fran Herndon herself was
in attendance. Well, they are stunning indeed. Dodie and I bought one of
the lithos ("The Death of the Poet") and one of the collages ("Ghost
Riders" IMHO the most beautiful) so, come on over everyone and check it
out!
Herndon is very much a working artist today. If anyone is interested, back
channel me for more details. She lives in San Francisco and is sometimes
seen at poetry readings, vernissages, etc. She has been inestimably
helpful to me and Lew Ellingham as we have been writing a biography of Jack
Spicer, and helpful to many other scholars and writers too. Before her
marriage, the poet Elizabeth Robinson lived with Fran, and after ER moved
out, the poet George Albon moved in, and lives there today.
Hope this helps. -Kevin K.
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Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 11:30:28 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: books on Blackburn and Bunting???
here's one on pb that most folks might not think of (and I SEEM to recall
something on blackburn there): The Dramaturgy of Style by Michael
Stephens.
Also, Tandy Sturgeon had a piece on PB and the troubadours not too too
long ago in Sagetrieb.
I have an interest in PB, so if anyone wishes to give me a full bib I
would welcome it.
burt kimmelman
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Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 11:33:19 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: books on Blackburn and Bunting???
there is also my piece "Ezra Pound's Medievalism and the American
Avant-Garde" (Arkansas Quarterly but at the moment here at this terminal
i don't have the volume and issue number and date--anyway a couple of years
agao
) which I think you have, no?
this piece has something on PB too.
burt kimmelman
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Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 10:42:04 -0600
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Robert A Harrison <Robert.A.Harrison@JCI.COM>
Subject: Visual Poetry
>A recent visual poetry catalogue for an exhibition in
>Milwaukee (is Bob Harrison still on this list -- he can give details?) began
>with a foreword by Drucker and ended with an afterword by Karl Young.
Hi Charles, yeah I'm still here.
The poetry catalog for the Hermetic Gallery VP show is still available. Costs
8 dollars. Anybody wants one send me an email with your street address. Has
work by:
Dick Higgins
Irving Weiss
Daniel Davidson
Peter Balestrieri
Steve McCaffery
Spencer Selby
Pete Spence
Crag Hill
Nico Vassilakis
John Cayley
Fernando Aguiar
Karl Young
Johanna Drucker
Leroy Gorman
John Byrum
John M. Bennett
& Susan Smith Nash
Clemente Padin
Steve Nelson - Raney
Bob Grumman
Hachivi Edgar Heap of Birds
Karl Kempton
Thomas Taylor
Avelino de Araujo
Thanks.
Bob Harrison
Robert.A.Harrison@JCI.com
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Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 12:03:34 -0500
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Pierre Joris <joris@CSC.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: books on Blackburn and Bunting???
In-Reply-To: <009A0347.17B27900.185@admin.njit.edu>
Off hand, re Blackburn, you may want to check the issue of my
long-defunct magazine SIXPACK (issue 7/8, 1974) which was a special Paul
Blackburn hommage. Besides work by PB, & mult hoimmage poems & texts for
him, the issue also contains a number of critical essays, by the likes of
Eric Mottram, Carl Thayer, Cid Corman, Gil Sorrentino, Armand Schwerner &
others. -- Pierre
=======================================================================
Pierre Joris | "Form fascinates when one no longer has the force
Dept. of English | to understand force from within itself. That
SUNY Albany | is, to create." -- Jacques Derrida
Albany NY 12222 |
tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | "Poetry is the promise of a language."
email: | -- Friedrich Holderlin
joris@cnsunix.albany.edu|
=======================================================================
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Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 09:14:18 -0800
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: MAXINE CHERNOFF <maxpaul@SFSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Poetry Video
In-Reply-To: <v01520d0ead84dde41ed1@[199.1.91.100]>
Dear Tim Wood,
I ordered perhaps 100 poetry videos from various providers including the
entire Lannan series for use in teaching and was disappointed at how
little of it proved useful. I had to preview everthing and excerpt the 5
or 10 minutes that had relevance to my class. Many tapes can't be
screened in class at all because they're too dull. I haven't seen United
States of Poetry yet but hear that it's tightly edited and a bit lively.
When poetry is on video it appears that it has to follow the rules of
video; must be fast-paced and in-your-face.
Are you interested in poetry and film collaborations? I wrote the script
for Joseph Ramirez's 90 minute film VIRIDIAN which had its premiere at
The Film Center of School of the Art Institute in Chicago--a
five-screening run in fall of 1994. There are four poems in the movie
used as voice-over and the movie began as a seven-page prose poem that
was expanded to a full-length work. Joe approached me because he wanted
a poetic film. One curiosity of the collaboration is that the four poems
were produced by running the final script through TRAVESTY, a software
"randomizing" program. So the prose poem became a script became poetry
again, this time in verse. We had packed houses in a 300 seat auditorium
because we were the film "pick of the week" in the Chicago Reader.
Susan Gevirtz is researching the subject of poetry and film, if you're
interested.
Paul Hoover
On Sun, 31 Mar 1996, Tim Wood wrote:
> Hello all...
>
> I'm doing research into poetry video. I've already contacted a number of
> people in Chicago, SF and the NE, but I'm still looking for additional
> material. This would include all the usual primary and secondary suspects.
> Of course, even a name or an idea would be welcome...
>
> thanks,
> Tim Wood
>
> in space no one can hear you scream
> in Dallas no one cares...
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Check out the Voices new poetry website at http://www.connect.net/twood/
> the Word, Dallas' monthly arts guide: http://www/connect.net/twood/word.html
> poetry & video poetry ---- graphic design & database development
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 09:05:07 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Priscilla Wong <wongp@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Hello!
Hi Everybody,
I just wanted to let you people know that I am new to this list. From the
messages that I have received, I am very interested in what this
discussion list has to offer.
I hope to hear from at least some of you, if not all of you. Have a great
day.
Priscilla
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 12:42:19 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: For Nicanor Parra
dear alan sondheim--
thanks for the poem....
I too love PARRA
("funerales no, muerte si!")
but haven't read him in awhile
and am curious why you choose to dedicate your poem to him...
does it "refer" to any particular Parra? just curious...
chris
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 13:05:30 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "John E. Matthias" <John.E.Matthias.1@ND.EDU>
Subject: The Western Renga
In the various postings about contemporary sonnets, I'm surprised the
remarkable experiment in sonnet-making by Octavio Paz, Jacques Roubaud,
Eduardo Sanguineti, and Charles Tomlinson hasn't come up. During a week in
1969 the Mexican, French, Italian and English poets met in Paris to write
what they took to be the first western Renga. Instead of writing
successively stanzas of three and two lines (with a fixed syllable count),
they chose to work in a form, the sonnet, common to the Spanish, French,
Italian, and English traditions. As well as being collaborative, the
experiment is also polylingual:In the first sonnet a quatrain in Spanish is
followed by a quatrain in English, a tercet in French, and a tercet in
Italian. Then come the permutations: Italian, Spanish, English, French;
French, Italian, Spanish, English; English, French, Italian, Spanish, and
so on. There are 27 sonnets, 27 sets of permutations. The original
edition, dedicated to Andre Breton, was published in France by Gallimard in
1971. I have an American edition from George Braziller that includes
facing page English translations by Tomlinson. There is a foreword by
Claude Roy, an introduction by Paz, an essay on the Japanese Renga
tradition by Roubaud, and a retrospect by Tomlinson. I think at some point
the book was also a Penguin; it is probably now out of print. It struck me
at the time, and it strikes me now, as one of the most important
experiments of a highly experimental decade. The first poem looks (and
sounds) like this:
El sol marcha sobre huesos ateridos:
en la camara subterranea: gestaciones:
las bocas del metro son ya hormigueros.
Cesa el sueno: comienzan los lenguajes:
and the gestureless speech of things unfreezes
as the shadow, gathering under the vertical
raised lip of the columns' fluting, spreads
its inkstain into the wrinkles of weathered stone:
Car la pierre peut-etre est une vigne
la pierre ou des fourmis jettent leur acide,
une parole preparee dans cette grotte
Principi, tomba e teca, sollevano salive de spettri:
la mia mandibola mordeva le sue sillabe di sabbia:
ero reliquia e clessidra per i vetri dell' occidente:
* * *
Sorry about the absence of diacritical marks; I haven't figured a way to
produce them for these postings.
I wonder if any of the _Renga_ will be in Vol.Two of _Poems for the Millennium_.
John Matthias
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 13:30:34 -0600
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Alexander <chax@MTN.ORG>
Subject: artists' books
Dear Poetics List:
In a couple of recent messages concerning the book as a unit of structure
(and more), I have mentioned Granary Books. So when I received this message
on a book arts list, I thought I should forward it to Poetics for all those
interested.
charles
>Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 12:22:23 -0500
>Reply-To: "The Book Arts: binding, typography, collecting"
> <BOOK_ARTS-L@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU>
>Sender: "The Book Arts: binding, typography, collecting"
> <BOOK_ARTS-L@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU>
>From: Steven Clay <sclay@INTERPORT.NET>
>Subject: artists' books
>To: Multiple recipients of list BOOK_ARTS-L
> <BOOK_ARTS-L@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU>
>X-UIDL: 828386749.006
>
>The Granary Books website is now up and beaming:
>
>www.granarybooks.com
>
>a very simulated look at fifteen or so recent publications.
>(you'll see it/them most effectively using netscape navigator 2.0)
>
>best wishes to all,
>
>steve clay
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 14:58:20 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ward Tietz <100723.3166@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Re: assemblings and multi-media books
Charles,
Thanks for your postings on assemblings and multi-media books. There is
certainly a lot to consider in terms of the structure of a work's presentation.
I agree with your comments on technical seamlessness. It seems to allow works
to be more presentationally transparent and legible, but this feature, in some
contexts, probably restricts the development of other compositional strategies.
Some of the cruder multiples/assemblies I was referring to rely quite heavily on
a fortuitous sense of material. They depend quite a lot on scrounging, finding
multiples of things so that the notion of an edition can be maintained. Despite
the abundance of text they may contain, they tend to function more like
artifacts and lose that sense of placelessness that books often support. On the
other hand they are often able to celebrate and foreground a locality, a
fortuitousness and liberty of combination, that is very much rooted in a
particular time and place. That can be interesting too.
Ward Tietz
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 15:07:59 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Alan Sondheim <sondheim@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: For Nicanor Parra
In-Reply-To: <01I3107LSWKI8Y51WM@cnsvax.albany.edu>
Refers to the Antipoems, in particular I am the Individual (forget the
title - I'm at work), and the dry clipped style... Do you know if he is
still alive and writing?
Alan
On Mon, 1 Apr 1996, Chris Stroffolino wrote:
> dear alan sondheim--
> thanks for the poem....
> I too love PARRA
> ("funerales no, muerte si!")
> but haven't read him in awhile
> and am curious why you choose to dedicate your poem to him...
> does it "refer" to any particular Parra? just curious...
> chris
>
With some new texts and image files -
http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html
Other images at http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 15:29:24 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Pierre Joris <joris@CSC.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Western Renga
In-Reply-To: <POETICS%96040113053029@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
John -- unhappily none of that renga will be in MIllennium vol II, though
both Jerry & I do like it. It is indeed a fascinating experiment, though
I wouldn't necessarily consider it as the most original experiment of
that decade. On the other hand, Paz, Roubaud & Sanguinetti are in
MILLENNIUM with works of their own, if not with their collaboration. --
Pierre
=======================================================================
Pierre Joris | "Form fascinates when one no longer has the force
Dept. of English | to understand force from within itself. That
SUNY Albany | is, to create." -- Jacques Derrida
Albany NY 12222 |
tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | "Poetry is the promise of a language."
email: | -- Friedrich Holderlin
joris@cnsunix.albany.edu|
=======================================================================
On Mon, 1 Apr 1996, John E. Matthias wrote:
> In the various postings about contemporary sonnets, I'm surprised the
> remarkable experiment in sonnet-making by Octavio Paz, Jacques Roubaud,
> Eduardo Sanguineti, and Charles Tomlinson hasn't come up. During a week in
> 1969 the Mexican, French, Italian and English poets met in Paris to write
> what they took to be the first western Renga. Instead of writing
> successively stanzas of three and two lines (with a fixed syllable count),
> they chose to work in a form, the sonnet, common to the Spanish, French,
> Italian, and English traditions. As well as being collaborative, the
> experiment is also polylingual:In the first sonnet a quatrain in Spanish is
> followed by a quatrain in English, a tercet in French, and a tercet in
> Italian. Then come the permutations: Italian, Spanish, English, French;
> French, Italian, Spanish, English; English, French, Italian, Spanish, and
> so on. There are 27 sonnets, 27 sets of permutations. The original
> edition, dedicated to Andre Breton, was published in France by Gallimard in
> 1971. I have an American edition from George Braziller that includes
> facing page English translations by Tomlinson. There is a foreword by
> Claude Roy, an introduction by Paz, an essay on the Japanese Renga
> tradition by Roubaud, and a retrospect by Tomlinson. I think at some point
> the book was also a Penguin; it is probably now out of print. It struck me
> at the time, and it strikes me now, as one of the most important
> experiments of a highly experimental decade. The first poem looks (and
> sounds) like this:
>
> El sol marcha sobre huesos ateridos:
> en la camara subterranea: gestaciones:
> las bocas del metro son ya hormigueros.
> Cesa el sueno: comienzan los lenguajes:
>
> and the gestureless speech of things unfreezes
> as the shadow, gathering under the vertical
> raised lip of the columns' fluting, spreads
> its inkstain into the wrinkles of weathered stone:
>
> Car la pierre peut-etre est une vigne
> la pierre ou des fourmis jettent leur acide,
> une parole preparee dans cette grotte
>
> Principi, tomba e teca, sollevano salive de spettri:
> la mia mandibola mordeva le sue sillabe di sabbia:
> ero reliquia e clessidra per i vetri dell' occidente:
>
> * * *
>
> Sorry about the absence of diacritical marks; I haven't figured a way to
> produce them for these postings.
>
> I wonder if any of the _Renga_ will be in Vol.Two of _Poems for the Millennium_.
>
> John Matthias
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 02:56:13 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Timmons <mnamna@IMAP1.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: artists' books
Comments: To: Charles Alexander <chax@MTN.ORG>
In-Reply-To: <199604011930.NAA10429@freedom.mtn.org>
just a note: the new book as art show at the National Museum
of Women in the Arts is opening soon. more details can be
provided if anyone were interested.
jeffrey timmons
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 17:11:19 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: new york city talks--saturday
thanks for the yummy fulsome reports and kudos to all. my major poetry event
of the day was lying in the sun; woods hole were paradise enow.
maria d
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 17:11:27 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Announcing _Broken English_ by Dodie Bellamy & Bob Harrison
hey there joel,
please send the friedlander, brannen and bellamy!
bests, maria d
128 racing beach ave
falmouth ma 02540
by the way, i'm only gonna be here for another 2.5 months, so i'd welcome and
fawn on all visitors...
maria d
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 17:57:36 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ken Edwards <100344.2546@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Barry MacSweeney
Dunno if _Black Torch_ is still in print but you could try writing to Allen
Fisher, who published it under his Spanner imprint. Allen is at 14 Hopton Rd,
Hereford HR1 1BE, UK. He doesn't as far as I know have email.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 17:57:33 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ken Edwards <100344.2546@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: sonnet blues
I'm glad Tony Green mentioned the blues in connection with sonnets. It occurs to
me you could equally make the assertion "the blues always says the same thing".
Musicological definitions of the blues usually go along the lines of "twelve
bars divided into three groups of four, with flattened thirds and sevenths" or
else they talk about tonic, subdominant and dominant chords. Then you listen to,
say, John Lee Hooker and he's doing something quite irregular and amazing which
is nevertheless recognisably the blues.
I've been obsessed with this connection for some time. "Poems of fourteen lines
of iambic pentameter, with a rhyme scheme of..." Hmm. Personally, I think Wyatt
was the John Lee Hooker of the 16th century.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 19:45:03 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: new york city, a bag
THINGS TO DO AFTER THE NYU POETRY TALKS
a continued convergance of mysterians
Ask Carla Billeteri if I can see what she's written on Laura Riding
Ask Joel Kuszai, Beth Anderson, Sean Killian and others on that panel
if they'd be willing to continue the discussion of maximalism vs.
minimalism in a forum Mark Wallace will do his damnedest to get published
Ask Kim Rosenfeld and others about gendered essentialism...
Try to get a copy of the Shaw/Strang collab piece in which they say
"reality threw a series of backbones" and refer to the "boxy little
realisim" of "lineage"
and the Louis Cabri piece in which he says "i wanna be erected" and
"ego chaos machine"
Condemn the privitization Buck Downs spoke in favor of (Jordan claims
he seconded buck, but I remember him only half jokingly begging for
a local millionaire)
Reopen the question, posed by Kristen P., and evaded by her immediate
interlocutors, about what "language itself" really means, and how it
functions in discourse? transcendental signified anyone?????
Get Rob Fitterman to expound on CONTROL and LETTING? (i mean LET him....)
Write Dan Farrell about BOO magazine (and send him check in
American $$$$)
Question the young advocates of the lyric about whether it is a mere
"reaction"? And may it repeat the gestures of previous exclusionary
tendencies? Or does it allow a new eclecticism, if not per se a new
synthesis?
Send Stephen Rodefer poems, and try to get the copy of his broadside to
Stephanie Seymour.
Read "In Memory Of My Theories" and write an essay called
"In Memory Of MY Queries"
Write Sianne Ngai for a copy of her poem in which she wrote
"I had nothing in my mind/But I changed it"
and procure copy of her magazine BLACK BREAD
Ask Joe Ross to tell some "success stories" about how he, as editor of
Washington Review, was able to overcome specific resistances to non-linear,
non-"realistic" verse, etc.
Try to get X and/or M and/or R and/or A to leave her boyfriend, at least
for an affair
Try to get Bill Luoma to write an essay explaining what the restaurant
MONTE's symbolizes in his allegory (but don't expect a straight answer)
Thank Louis Cabri for switching places with me
Get a tape of the panel with Ben F. and Nancy S. (etc.) that I missed...
See if Jordan D. wants to continue the collab. we started during the
collab. panel.
Quote these lines from Ashbery for Mark Wallace:
"But most of all she loved the particles
that transform objects of the same category
into particular ones, each distinct
within and apart from its own class"
Reopen the question as to whether what is needed at this time in Canada
is similar, and/or how it differs, from what is needed at this time in
the States, and ask what can be learned by the USA poets from the canadians
present, and is it possible to go the "wrong" way down the one way street
of imperialism i mean the free trade agreement....
Notice how the americans for the most part dodged any question of politics
except that of "the politics of poetic form"....
Resist the temptation to compare this conference unfavorably to the
NEW COAST ONE (in terms of diversity, lack of coffee, two panels at
once...) or favorably (in terms of the great FORM panel, the superiority
of NYC to a "riot proff campus...")
Hope and prey that someone publishes it as a book (good suggestion, ron)
and keep reminding ROB F. to include the question and answer sessions
in it too and let people revise their comments (which I have a hunch
Perelman did with WRITING TALKS...)
Suggest that there be commemorative t-shirts with BIG QUESTION MARKS
on the back, and tell Kevin Davies he can wear it over his CLASS OF 78 shirt. Find out whether it was Fiona Templeton or Melanie N. who said that
we shouldn't think of an "audience" as much as a "perceiver"...
Ask Bernadette Mayer for her correspondence with LAURA RIDING, then
try to get it published.
Ask James Sherry if I can stay at the Hotel Sherry-ton while I look
for a job in NYC....
Ask Jessica Grim if she was serious about her banishment of "touchy
feely stuff....heaven forbid" from what Larry Price would call an
explanatoy register...
Ask Lisa J. what she meant when she said I ALMOST didn't pull off my
fish poem at my reading....
Don't forget the ghoulish doorman at the ICHOR
and the rose colored glasses charles bernstein (if not willie loman)
had on....
and be sure to wish bruce andrews a happy april fool's day....
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 20:08:08 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: new york city, a bag
Chris,
If that's a typo, it's the best one I've seen on the list in some
time...
"Hope and prey"
Ron
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 23:04:54 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Stephen Galen Cope <scope@UCSCB.UCSC.EDU>
Subject: poetry video
Tim Wood et al:
We Press did a video a few years back. The budget was shoestring (if that),
so it's nothing like, say, MTV would be interested in, but you might? You
can currently reach WE at
We Press
POBox 1503
Santa Cruz, CA 95061
(408) 427-9711
or by contacting
cf2785@albnyvms.bitnet
Best of luck,
Stephen Cope
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 07:12:27 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Bill Luoma <Maz881@AOL.COM>
Subject: NYC walkie talkie
Comments: cc: lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu, bernstei@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
Re: the NYC Poetry Talks, Ron Silliman wrote:
>>(1) I hope somebody plans to collect all this material
>>into a book.
Rob Fitterman and I are going to edit the material presented and somehow git
a book printed. Since RobF isn't on email, i'm going to act as the focal
point for collecting electronic versions of the talks. Anyone who talked,
please email your text to me if you would like to have your work printed.
Attachments over the internet have been working. text in email bodies are
fine as well. images can work.
send to MAZ881@AOL.COM
If you want to mail your docs to me, I'm:
Bill Luoma
280 Court St #4
Brooklyn, NY 11231
The events were taped, but transcription seems like an unwieldy task. Does
anyone know of a desktop (mac or windows) program that listens to tape
recorders and writes that info to text files?
LossG, CharlesB, would it be appropriate to create a space for this material
at the EPC?
Bill Luoma
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 08:20:08 -0500
Reply-To: Robert Drake <au462@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Robert Drake <au462@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: poetry video
_Open Letter_ did a series of articles on, er, about video, spread
over the winter, spring & summer 1993 issues. i only have the summer
issue (because it also has an interview w/ bpNichol); while it
doesn't talk much about video tapes of poetry performances, it does
talk about the poetics ov video as a medium... mann's _Poetry
in Motion_ is still my fave poetry video & it is a film, & i haven't
seem USovP (tho the soundtrack just came in the mail)...
lbd
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 08:24:43 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Hen <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: author of M
In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 30 Mar 1996 16:44:49 -0800 from
<quarterm@UNIXG.UBC.CA>
On Sat, 30 Mar 1996 16:44:49 -0800 Peter Quartermain said:
>this were later reprinted on the last pages (pages 1016-1017) of Moore's M:
>ONE THOUSAND AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL SONNETS (Harcourt Brace 1938). The Foreword is
>titled "Merrill Moore's Sonnets: Present total, steadily mounting, 50,000."
>I don't know what he said about the sonnet there, since I haven't read it.
Maybe WCW's comment about all sonnets sounding the same was made shortly
after he steamed through MM's 34,000th. - HG
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 12:29:55 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Peter Baker <baker@MIDGET.TOWSON.EDU>
Subject: Blackburn bibl.
In-Reply-To: <199604020703.CAA05321@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
I've never had any response to a piece I wrote published in _Sagetrieb_:
Peter Baker, "Blackburn's Gift," _Sagetrieb_ 12:1 (1993) 43-54.
Would be interested to hear what folks think.
In part a response to Marjorie Perloff's negative evaluation, in her review-
essay: "On the Other Side of the Field: _The Collected Poems of Paul
Blackburn_" in _Poetic License_ (Northwestern, 1990) 251-265.
A good discussion of Blackburn's seriality appears as a chapter in Joseph
Conte's _Unending Design_ (Cornell, 1991[?]).
Peace,
Peter
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 13:58:15 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Blackburn bibl.
Peter,
Yes now I somewhat remember your piece and am in sympathy with it (especially
as regards Marjorie's review). Thanks for mentioning it.
Burt Kimmelman
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 12:05:10 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jeffrey W. Timmons" <mnamna@IMAP1.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Book as Art VIII: Press Release
Ok, here it is. I can't wait to see it myself. Hope others do too. =20
Jeffrey Timmons
Washington, D.C.-- April 1996 -- The Library and Research Center (LRC) of t=
he
National Museum of Women in the Arts (NMWA) presents its eighth annual
exhibition of artists' books, Book as Art VIII, opening April 15 and
continuing through October 25, 1996. The exhibition, on display in the LRC=
,
is open to the public from 10 a.m. until 5 p.m., Monday through Saturday.
Artists' books are intimate, multi-faceted objects ranging from traditional
illustrated volumes to more unconventional artworks which use the book form
to explore ideas, color, shape and imagery. In content, artists' books cov=
er
the gamut from confessional diaries to political manifestoes. Visually, ma=
ny
works take the narrative form to unexpected extremes: for example, a chain
letter in Katherine Ng's Book of Chain literally becomes a chain of paper
links printed with words.
On view are more than sixty unique books, book-sculptures, limited editions
and related works created by forty artists from the United States, Argentin=
a,
Bulgaria, France, Germany, Italy and Switzerland. Many of the artists are
from the Washington area, including Rose Folsom, Shireen Holman, Margo Klas=
s,
Doris Rief, Betty Sweren, Molly Van Nice (a former Washingtonian) and Ann
Zahn. Krystyna Wasserman, Director of the Library and Research Center,
curated the show.
Poetry and music have been an inspiration for many artists in this
exhibition. Julie Chen's book, Radio Silence, sends via her poem a coded
message of distress to her beloved. Michele Burgess probes a poem by Nancy
Willard in her book Poem Made of Water, in which Willard compares the power
of water to the creative power of language: both can heal, hurt and inspire=
.
Rose Folsom, a Washington calligrapher, whose beautiful writing enchanted
Queen Elisabeth II, transcribed May Sarton's poem, "Her Nightly Journey" =
=97 a
dramatic journey into the heart of darkness. The poet Mary Louise Cox
published Images of a Voice in collaboration with painter Lou Hicks to
celebrate her seventieth birthday. Throughout her life, Shireen Holman ha=
s
tried to integrate two very different cultures: that of India, where she gr=
ew
up, with America where she now lives. Her book, Stream of Life, in the
shape of a wooden houseboat from Dal Lake in the mountains of Kashmir,
includes poems by her cousin Tom Galt. Karen Kunc, the winner of the NMWA
Library Fellows Award in 1995, created On This Land with poet Lenora
Castillo. This book of woodcuts portrays the austere beauty of Nebraska, i=
ts
farmland and open sky and reflects a gradual process of acceptance and
attachment to the new landscape. Sir Stephen Spender's poem "Dolphins"
inspired Alice Simpson's pop-up tale of carefree swimmers playing with
dolphins. Helen Frankenthaler's first artist's book, A Valentine for Mr.
Wonderful, includes the poem "St. Valentine" by William Carlos Williams.
"This valentine for my husband seemed to pour out of me, as if it flowed
from my heart through my fingertips and onto the copper plates," says the
artist. "My first book fell into place like a little rose =97 and a surpris=
e to
me! . . . In a way, I felt I had very little to do with it. A direct hit
from the Cupid's arrow." Song of Songs, a hymn of love in its physical and
spiritual incarnation, inspired Rita Galle's illustrations of this unique
book of the Bible.
Music is the theme of Elena Presser's bookworks. The thirty Goldberg
Variations, composed by Johann Sebastian Bach in 1741 (to cheer up Count
Kayserling during his sleepless nights), resulted in a series of Presser's
unique works of fragile beauty and calm. Jan Owen's Synku (my little son)
is another masterful visual response to music. Owen's inspiration was
Symphony No. 3 by the contemporary Polish composer Henryk Gorecki. She cho=
se
William Blake's poem "Night" to accompany Gorecki's music. The poet and th=
e
composer lament the evil in nature and hope for the day when "the lion can
lie down with the lamb." Evelyn Eller created Music Box, a book-sculpture
containing scrolls of musical notation by Robert Schuman and Felix
Mendelssohn.=20
Letters have been another source of inspiration for artists. Beverly Nichol=
s
transcribed and illustrated Three Letters of Georgia O'Keeffe. Katherine N=
g
transformed letters written to her by her father into an ingenious book,
Fortune Ate Me, made from a box of fortune cookies. The fortunes are her
father's "words of wisdom." Her replies to these paternal admonitions are
notes printed on the inside surface of the cookies. Jan Gilbert used a lett=
er
from an American soldier in Vietnam as the subject of her moving book
Memorial to Bobby: The Red Letter Day.
Autobiographical books have been part of every Book as Art exhibition since
the series' inauguration in 1987. This show is no exception. Philomena
Robinson, the second 1995 Library Fellows award winner, created Completing
the Circle, a free-standing circular book-sculpture in which she recalls
small incidents and moments that have shaped her life. "This book =97 its
colors, forms and poetry =97 holds my image, my joy and my pain," says
Robinson. "It is a connection to all people who have been important to me,
to history and . . . to the future. It is what I hope to share with other
women." In Autobiography, Linda Rubinstein recalls memories of her teenage
years. Doris Rief's From Death to Life was born of despair: "Pouring out
words of anger and pain allowed me to get through a terrible time =97 my
husband's illness that ended in his death." Mary Segal creates visual
diaries, each day of her life resulting in a small square drawing. Segal=
's
The Story of Me chronicles events related to motherhood, family, career an=
d
aging =97 the subjects which absorb her most. In The Marc Ballroom, Alice
Simpson remembers "dirty dancing" and the profane, forbidden atmosphere of
urban romance stirred by the languid songs and the sensuous rhythms of 1950=
s
New York. Allison Smith's Self-Portrait, produced during her residency in
Ireland, compiles daily visual and verbal entries related to her art and
personal evolution. Ann Zahn's Carousel evokes her childhood and the
pleasure of riding the carousel in Glen Echo Park in Maryland. Ann Starr's
Several Thoughts Concerning Clinical Depression expresses the overwhelming
sorrow experienced by all those who suffer from clinical depression.
Book as Art VIII includes books illustrating artists' interest in social
concerns and the political process. Molly Van Nice created Notes on the
Nature of Things, a critical analysis of the presidential electoral system,
and Swiss Army Book, a reminder of the fragility of the book and its
vulnerability to assault and possible destruction. In Portraits, Susan
Rotolo tries to come to terms with the images of human devastation, diseas=
e
and death that she has witnessed in New York City.=20
The National Museum of Women in the Arts is a private, non-profit museum
dedicated to increasing public awareness of the outstanding achievements of
women in the visual and performing arts. The museum's permanent collection
consists of over 1,500 works dating from the Renaissance to the present,
created by nearly 500 women artists from 28 countries. The museum's hours
are 10:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., Monday through Saturday, and noon to 5:00 p.m.
on Sunday. The Library and Research Center is open to the public for
research from 10:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., Monday through Saturday by appointme=
nt
only.
For more information, contact Holly Crider at (202) 783-5000.=20
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 12:06:34 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jeffrey W. Timmons" <mnamna@IMAP1.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Book as Art VIII: Checklist
This is mainly for Charles Alexander, but others might be interested too.
Jeffrey Timmons
BOOK AS ART VIII
CHECKLIST
ETEL ADNAN (Sausalito, California and Paris, France)
One Linden Tree, Then Another Linden Tree, 1985
Ink, watercolor, crayon and pomegranate peel dye on paper
11=BE x 8=BC inches (closed)
Unique bookwork
The NMWA Library and Research Center Collection
Gift of Etel Adnan and Salwa Mikdadi Nashashibi
MARION A. BAKER (Los Angeles, California)
Commedia dell' Arte: A Celebration, 1993
Poems by Ann B. Saltzman
Letterpress, photo engravings and linocuts on paper
12=BD x 10 inches
Edition 66/75
Printmakers Press, Los Angeles, California
On loan from the artist
MICHELE BURGESS (San Diego, California)
Poem Made of Water, 1992
Poem by Nancy Willard
Chine coll=E9 drypoint engravings, letterpress and ink on paper
6=BD x 9=BC inches
Edition of 25
Brighton Press, San Diego, California
The NMWA Library and Research Center Collection
Gift of the artist
MARYLEE BYTHERIVER (Oakland, California)
Venus on the Half Shell, 1994
Linoleum block prints on paper
10=BE x 7=BD inches (closed)
Edition 6/50
Lunation Press, Oakland, California
On loan from the artist
JULIE CHEN (Berkeley, California)
Radio Silence, 1955
Aeronautical charts, letterpress on Wyndstone Mica and Tuxedo bronze paper,
embossed paper, plexiglass and silk
5 x 3=BC x 3 inches (closed); box: 2=BC x 10=BE x 3=BD inches
Edition 12/75
Flying Fish Press, Berkeley, California
On loan from the artist
ROSEMARIE CHIARLONE (Miami Beach, Florida)
Palm Book, 1995
Text by Henry David Thoreau
Palm leaves, Egyptian papyrus, oil paint stick, shellac
12 x 12 x 3=BD inches
Unique bookwork
On loan from the artist
CAROL CUNNINGHAM (Mill Valley, California)
Muses, 1989-1994
Drawings by Gene Holtan
Letterpress on paper
10 x 7 inches
Edition 22/60
Sunflower Press, Mill Valley, California
On loan from the artist
EVELYN ELLER (Forest Hills, New York)
Music Box, 1990
Mixed media collage
5=BE x 5 x 2 inches
Unique bookwork
The NMWA Library and Research Center Collection=20
Gift of Paul and Rose Rosenbaum
ROSE FOLSOM (Silver Spring, Maryland)
Her Nightly Journeys, 1995
Poem by May Sarton
Gouache, vinyl paint and wheat paste on paper
12=BD x 9=BD inches
Unique bookwork
On loan from the artist
HELEN FRANKENTHALER (New York, New York)
Valentine for Mr. Wonderful, 1995
Poem by William Carlos Williams
Etching, aquatint, engraving, lithography and embossing on handmade paper
11=BE x 8=BC inches
Artist's proof 6/10
Tyler Graphics, Ltd., Mount Kisco, New York
On loan from Tyler Graphics, Ltd
RITA GALLE (Milano, Italy)
Song of Songs, 1990
Aquatint etching on paper
15 x 11=BC inches
Edition 20/100
Pardes Rimonim Press, Woodmere, New York
On loan from Raphael Fodde Editions
JAN GILBERT (New Orleans, Louisiana)
Memorial to Bobby: The Red Letter Day, 1988
Mixed media
4=BD x 5=BD inches and 6 x 9=BC inches; box 3=BD x 9 x 6=BC inches
On loan from the Collection of Jim and Marcia Croyle
ADRIANE HERMAN (Madison, Wisconsin)
The Book I Made About the House That Jack Built, 1994
Collage, tempera, pencil on found book
6 x 5=BD inches
Unique bookwork
On loan from the artist
Burnt Toast, 1993
Lithography on paper, toast, hinges
3=BC x 3=BC inches
Unique bookwork
On loan from the artist
A Brief Festival, 1988
Letterpress and woodcuts on paper
12=BD x 10=BC inches
Edition 4/35
The Beggar's Bowl Press, Northampton, Massachusetts
On loan from the artist
CAROL PALLESEN HICKS (Reno, Nevada)
A Trilogy: My Life (Birth to Marriage; Marriage to Divorce; Divorce
to...),1995
Tempera and gouache on paper, hand-colored photocopies of photographs
5 x 4 x 1 inches
Unique bookwork
On loan from the artist
LOU HICKS (Greenwich, Connecticut)
Images of a Voice, 1994
Poems by Mary Louise Cox
Letterpress and lithographs on paper
14 x 7 inches
Edition 48/50
On loan from Darrel Cox Jodrey
SHIREEN HOLMAN (Gaithersburg, Maryland)
Stream of Life, 1992
Poems by Tom Galt
Colored pencil on paper
12=BE x 16 inches
Unique bookwork
On loan from the artist
Stream of Life, 1994
Poems by Tom Galt
Handmade paper with pulp painting, woodcuts, photo-engravings and letterpre=
ss
14 x 15 inches
Edition 5/20
On loan from the artist
MARGO KLASS (Bethesda, Maryland)
"No Callous Shell", 1992
Poem by Walt Whitman
Found objects,19th-century ledger paper, ink, waxed linen and handmade pape=
r
12 x 13 inches
Unique bookwork
On loan from the artist
Altarpiece: Resurrection, 1995
Handmade paper, waxed linen and found objects
10 x 11=BD x 7=BC inches (closed)
Unique bookwork
On loan from the artist
NINA KOVACHEVA (Paris, France and Sofia, Bulgaria)
Alice Dreams, 1993
Pencil, ink and watercolor on paper and handmade paper
8 x 7=BD inches
Unique bookwork
On loan from the artist
KAREN KUNC (Avoca, Nebraska)
On This Land, 1996
Poem by Lenora Castillo
Woodcuts on paper and red flax paper stained with walnut
7=BD x 5=BC inches (closed); 7=BD x 102 inches (open)
Edition 125/125
The Library Fellows of the National Museum of Women in the Arts, Washington=
,
D.C.
SUSANNE LEVY (Arlesheim, Switzerland)
Sounds of Silence, 1987
Embossing and letterpress print on handmade paper
14 x 10 inches
Edition 19/40
The NMWA Library and Research Center Collection
Gift of the artist
JENNI LUKA (Richmond, Virginia)
The Daily Examination of the Conscience, 1994
Altered book and found objects
8=BC x 11=BC (open)
Unique bookwork
The NMWA Library and Research Center Collection
Gift of Jenni Luka and Catherine Saignier
MIRTA MELTZER (Buenos Aires, Argentina)
Mio Secreto (My Secret), 1994
Text by Antoine de Saint-Exup=E9ry
Ink on handmade paper
7 x 5=BC inches (closed)
Unique bookwork
On loan from the artist
KATHERINE NG (Los Angeles, California)
The Book of Chain, 1992
Computer print on Tyvek
3=BE x 3=BE x 1 inches
Edition of 20
On loan from the artist
Fortune Ate Me, 1992
Letterpress handset type on paper and linocut
5 x 7 x 1=BD inches
Edition of 100
Pressious Jade, Los Angeles, California
On loan from the artist
BEVERLY NICHOLS (Lenexa, Kansas)
Three Letters of Georgia O'Keeffe, 1995
Text by Georgia O'Keeffe
Watercolor and ink on paper, linen and foam
10=BC x 11=BD inches (closed); 10=BC x 70 inches (open)
Unique bookwork
On loan from the artist
JAN OWEN (Bangor, Maine)
The Sun, 1995
Poem by William Blake
Gouache on paste decorated paper with woven paper
22=BD x 8=BD inches (closed); 22=BD x 30 inches (open)
Unique bookwork
On loan from the artist
Language is to the Mind, 1995
Gouache on paste decorated paper with woven paper
25 x 11=BD inches (closed); 25 x 40 inches (open)
Unique bookwork
On loan from the artist
ELENA PRESSER (Miami, Florida)
Goldberg Variation #14, 1983
Paper, pastel, pencil, silk thread and silver wire
13=BE x 10=BE x 1=BE inches
On loan from the artist
Goldberg Variation #15, 1983
Paper, pastel, pencil, silk thread and silver wire
13=BE x 10=BE x 2 inches
On loan from the artist
Goldberg Variation #16, 1984
Paper, pastel, pencil, silk thread and silver wire
13=BE x 10=BE x 2 inches
On loan from the artist
Goldberg Variation #21, 1984
Paper, pastel, pencil, silk thread, silk ribbon and silver wire
13=BE x 10=BE x 21=BD inches
On loan from the artist
Goldberg Variation #25, 1984
Paper, pastel, pencil, silk thread, silk ribbon and silver wire
13=BE x 10=BE x 3 inches
On loan from the artist
Goldberg Variation #26, 1984
Paper, pastel, pencil, silk thread and silver wire=20
13=BE x 10=BE x 1=BD
On loan from the artist
Goldberg Variation #27, 1984
Paper, pastel, pencil, silk thread and silver wire
13=BE x 10=BE x 1=BE inches
On loan from the artist
Goldberg Variation #30, 1984
Paper, pastel, pencil, silk thread and silver wire
13=BE x 10=BE x 3 inches
On loan from the artist
Unfinished Symphony, 1982
Paper, pastel, pencil, silk thread, silk ribbon, wire
29 x 36 x 1 inches
On loan from the artist
DORIS RIEF (Baltimore, Maryland)
From=20Death to Life, 1988-1994
Mixed media
9=BD x 11 inches
Unique bookwork
The NMWA Library and Research Center Collection
Gift of the artist
Painted Pages, 1987
Pastel on paper, oil stick, marker
22 x 30=BD inches
On loan from the artist
Painted Pages, 1985
Paper mounted on canvas, spray paint, oil paint=20
40=BE x 40=BE inches
On loan from the artist
PHILOMENA ROBINSON (Chicago, Illinois)
Completing The Circle, 1996
Handmade paper, silver gelatin prints, watercolor, embossed copper and pape=
r
cutouts
7=BD x 12 inches
Edition 1/125
The Library Fellows of the National Museum of Women in the Arts, Washington=
,
D.C.
SUSAN ROTOLO (New York, New York)
Portraits: An Album of Damage and Death, 1994
Mixed media collage
4=BE x 6=BC inches
Unique bookwork
On loan from the artist
LINDA RUBINSTEIN (Putney, Vermont)
Work, 1988
Collage on paper and color pencil
6=BD x 7=BC inches
Unique bookwork
On loan from the artist
Autobiography, 1990
Collage, watercolor, pen and ink on paper
10=BC x 12 inches
Unique bookwork
On loan from the artist
MARY SEGAL (Roseland, Florida)
The Continuing Story of Me, 1992-1993
Monotype and mylar transfer on paper
10 x 15 inches
Unique bookwork
On loan from the artist
Journal Drawing #3, 1992
Colored pencil and color photocopy on paper
22 x 30 inches
On loan from the artist
Journal Drawing #4, 1992
Colored pencil and color photocopy on paper
22 x 30 inches
On loan from the artist
SUSAN JOY SHARE (Brooklyn, New York)
A Bite of Air, 1990
Acrylic on bristol, color photocopy on paper, wood, lead weights, thread
10 x 7=BD x 1 inches (closed); 42 x 21 inches (open)
Unique bookwork
On loan from the artist
Midnight Puzzle, 1989
Paper, cloth, board, photograph, acrylic, string, cork
4 x 4 x 2=BD inches (closed); 10 x 31 x 19 inches (open)
Unique bookwork
On loan from the artist
ALICE SIMPSON (New York, New York)
Dirty Dancing, 1995
Gouache on paper
10 x 10=BD (closed)
Edition 1/2
On loan from the artist
Dolphins, 1994
Poem by Stephen Spender
Watercolor on paper, tissue
20 x 6 inches
Unique bookwork
On loan from the artist
The Marc Ballroom, 1994
Watercolor on paper, beads, ribbons, wooden feet, cameo portraits
13 x 11 inches (closed)
Unique bookwork
On loan from the artist
ALLISON SMITH (Memphis, Tennessee)
Irish Journal, 1994
Handmade paper, beeswax, horsehair
7=BD x 6 inches (closed); 68 x 6 inches (open)
Unique bookwork
On loan from the artist
Handbound, 1987
Library binding with leather glove
8 x 6 x 2 inches
Unique book
On loan from the artist
ANN STARR (Wellesley, Massachusetts)
Several Thoughts Concerning Clinical Depression, 1993
India ink and wash on paper, string
4 x 12=BD inches
Unique book
On loan from the artist
BETTY R. SWEREN (Owings Mills, Maryland)
The Snake, 1995
Pulp painting with color pigments and mica on handmade paper
10 x 9=BD inches
Edition 1/30
On loan from the artist
ALICE C. VAN BUREN (Paris, France)
The Siren of the Opera, 1994
Black and white photocopy on paper and watercolor
6=BE x 4=BD inches
Edition 9/25
On loan from the artist
Le Fil d'Ariane, (Ariadne's Thread),1993
Etching on paper and string
5=BD x 7 inches
Edition 1/25
On loan from the artist
=20
The Public Virgin, 1994
Metallic paint on board, black and white photocopy on paper and feather
6 x 5=BD inches
Edition 10/25
On loan from the artist
MOLLY VAN NICE (Sommerville, Massachusetts)
Notes on the Nature of Some Things (in five volumes of which this is the
third), 1988
Paper, india ink, silkscreen, thread
15 x 11 inches
Unique bookwork
On loan from the artist
Swiss Army Book, 1990
Ink on paper, linen, wood, pen nib and ribbon
11=BD x 20=BC x 8=BE inches
Unique bookwork
On loan from the artist
ANNA MARIA VANCHERI (Rome, Italy)
Incantalibro (Bewitched Book), 1994
Mixed media
10 x 6 x 4 inches
Unique bookwork
On loan from the artist
KARLA WOISNITZA (Berlin, Germany)
Day Book: Meditations in Ink, 1995-1996
Ink on paper
7=BD x 6=BD inches
Unique bookwork
On loan from the artist
ANN ZAHN (Bethesda, Maryland)
Carousel, 1992
Woodcut on paper
13 x 5=BD inches
Edition of 20, artist's proof
On loan from the artist
Dentzel Carousel I, Glen Echo, Maryland, 1995
Woodcut on paper
12 x 15=BE inches
Edition 4/15
On loan from the artist
Dentzel Carousel XIII, Glen Echo, Maryland, 1995
Woodcut on paper
12 x 16 inches
Edition 4/15
On loan from the artist
(Some works cited in the checklist will be rotated and may not be on view
during portions of the exhibition)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 08:16:55 GMT+1300
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: Re: new york city talks--saturday
Reports of events -- far off -- are The Best. Thanks to Jordan Davis
and Chris Stroffolino.
Tony Green,
e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 16:00:35 -0600
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU>
Subject: poetry video...
re poetry videos in general, the united states of poetry in particular,
which i just yesterday had a chance to view in toto: some poetry videos
seem to work better---much better---than others, *as videos*... the son et
lumiere effect represents a different art form, just as music videos
represent a different art form than the music alone... when these latter
first came out (in the contemporary mtv scene, i mean) there were many
musical 'purists' who objected to same...
the difficulty is that most music videos represent a translation from one
pop cultural venue to another, whereas to transfigure poetry as video, as
in the united states of poetry, tends to move poetry into a pop cultural
format---with which it's not always associated, depending on the
community... there's also the oral/aural motioning of our culture in
general, and how this 'plays into' the video format in ways that sheer
sound alone may not... in terms of poetry, sound alone may offer more
resistance than video to commodity pressures...
but this depends, and yeah, there are risks here, fer sure... i found wanda
coleman's video successful precisely b/c it challenged the rec'd qvc-tv
format... that is, it subverted the consumer venue AS venue... sure, there
are some works about which it might be argued that they are inherently more
performative... but interestingly, the least performance-oriented
video---"performance" here taken to mean something like
'entertainment'---was larry eigner's... and for me, this was far and away
the most fascinating display of poiesis, hence from another pov the finest
performance (and i don't mean at all to suggest that the eigner video
required less active work for the film crew editor etc)...
mebbe the most valuable aspect of the united states of poetry, for me, was
its celebratory sense of a diverse culture with diverse voices---a diverse
practice... this format works best for me in small doses, in part b/c so
much of what i find crucial to poetic practice simply can't be
'visualized,' IS about the silences & solitudes attendant to
writer-speaker/reader-listener interaction (even during the noisiest,
community-based readings) as opposed to the singular Self espousing to the
mass (anonymous) audience... but like all formats, video is surely a format
that poets can learn from and work with, no?...
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 17:55:09 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: " . . . "
In-Reply-To: <199604020703.CAA05321@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
for quick take on Bunting, if you haven;t already taken it, try _Basil
Bunting: Man and Poet_ in the National Poetry Foundation series --
available at libraries, and still available indeed from Burt Hatlen at
Orono --
Para Parra?
Par Ra?
Por que no?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 20:18:07 -0600
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Alexander <chax@MTN.ORG>
Subject: Re: poetry video...
It seems to me that U.S. of Poetry is as much about poetry (at least insofar
as it makes a compilation which attempts to make a statement about the
culture of poetry) as it is a poetry video, and that may be a critical
distinction. Also it seems odd to me that in making a criticism of poetry
videos we are talking about those that are on national television in various
ways. That seems about the equivalent to making a criticism of poetry by
talking about poems in Reader's Digest.
Also, that video is necessarily a pop culture format would seem rather odd
to the many video artists who are doing things with video which will never
get onto national public television or national network television; and a
lot of which will never even get onto local cable access programs. Some of
these, I imagine, are doing work with poetry. I would think we would be
better served to find our own peers in localities all over who are working
in video. I know a group called Video Art Network, which is a collective
including Nancy Solomon and other video artists in Tucson, Arizona, have
done some work with poetry. They did one video which was in part a video
response to or realization of a poem I wrote titled White Gorge. The
difficulty, though, with talking about such work for any of us here is that
it's so difficult to see such works. Just as it's quite difficult to find a
lot of poetry out there if you're not part of some network of writers.
Saying that, I will say that I did find some good in U.S. of Poetry, but
that a lot of it left me wanting something else.
charles
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 21:57:52 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Peter Quartermain <quarterm@UNIXG.UBC.CA>
Subject: Re: Bunting
for quick take on Bunting there is also the special Bunting issue of Durham
University Journal Spring 1995 _Sharp_Study_and_Long Toil_ edited by Ruchard
Caddel and available from the Bunting Poetry Archive aty Durham UK for ten
pounds. And there's two shortish essays on Bunting in my own
_Disjunctive_Poetics: _From_Stein_and_Zukofsky_to_Susan_Howe_ (Cambridge UP
1993), as well as the full length Peter Makin book
_The_Shaping_of_Butning'S_Verse_ (Oxford) -- I don't think that's quite the
right title, but it's pretty close.
Peter
>for quick take on Bunting, if you haven;t already taken it, try _Basil
>Bunting: Man and Poet_ in the National Poetry Foundation series --
>available at libraries, and still available indeed from Burt Hatlen at
>Orono --
>
>
>Para Parra?
>Par Ra?
>Por que no?
>
>
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Peter Quartermain
128 East 23rd Avenue
Vancouver
B.C.
Canada V5V 1X2
Voice and fax: 604 876 8061
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 11:57:01 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: William Northcutt <William.Northcutt@UNI-BAYREUTH.DE>
Subject: Benjamin
-- [ From: William Northcutt * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
Just re-discovered a great bit from Walter Benjamin in "One-Way Street":
"What, in the end, makes advertisements so superior to criticism" Not what
the moving red neon sign says--but the fiery pool reflecting it in the
asphalt." (Reflections 86)
Exchange "poetry" for "criticism."
William
--
--------------------------------------------
William Northcutt
Englische Literaturwissenschaft
GWII
Universitaet Bayreuth
95440 Bayreuth, Germany
0921/553577
fax 0921/553641
email: william.northcutt@uni-bayreuth
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 11:36:03 CST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Baratier <dave.baratier@MOSBY.COM>
Subject: contra simic
That is so true, what would us "poets" (label as yours) do without the
deconstructivist lens as a method of inquiry to dissassemble poetry?
How greatful all of us should be that a critic has taken their *free*
copy, once it arrives parcel post, to review using the particular sect
of criticism that best unseats the rider. The assumption of the author
as less intelligent than the language they use (and, of course, less
than the critic) prevails, their inability to "protect" themselves
with the correct jargon continues.
the words were the motor or the driving force
-Taggart
David Baratier
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 11:34:38 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Mark Wallace <mdw@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU>
Subject: Electronic Poetry Review
I saw the update on how to send mail to the Electronic Poetry Review, but
it's still being returned to me. The address I'm sending to is:
EPR@www.poetry.org.edu
Can someone backchannel me and help me figure out what I'm missing?
Thanks.
Mark Wallace
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 09:30:57 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: "Video ergo sum" (thanks, Joan)
In-Reply-To: <199604030708.CAA03242@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
Like Charles, I found recent discussion of poetry video odd, though not
at all surprised by the focus on USP, it having just recently aired --
like the "enactments?" in _Voices & Visions_, entirely TOO literal-minded
for my tastes --
but wanted to mention new anthology on video art,, nothing in it abt
poetry (and it could use such an essay!) -- but much that will interest
those thinking about poetry and video art:
_Resolutions: Contemporary Video Practices_
ed. Michael Renov & Erika Sunderburg
U of Minnesota Press
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 12:33:46 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Bill Luoma <Maz881@AOL.COM>
Subject: Monte's Venetian Room
Comments: cc: drothschild@penguin.com
Hi chris Stroff, who said @ NYC talker said "Form is never more than an
extension of Creely," is giving me grief for being allegorical. But thanks
for asking for a read on Monte's. you are what you eat. my take is limited
but i would read Monte's as a large symbol of the Pound/Stein/radmod fascist
commie contradiction. also it's the western hem. Monte's Venetian Room is
nearly on the Gowanus Canal and i imagine that venice imitation as usa,
canada, mex, south am as a euro-trash heap built on top of native americans.
see below for who gowanus was and another allegory chris. but also monte's
functions as a small space where no one goes except kevin and douglass and
lisa, who go over the tradition bridge the wrong way which makes for some
great poems while the cops try to match up vehicle identification numbers. a
community. these ones are willing to do the star trek tag line. Nomo
Clonal. I mean Nogo is an edgy community not yet sanctioned by the Landmarks
Preservation Foundation. it's not soho or berkeley or the upper west side
(nyet). the canadians have been to Nogo. Ask Dan Farrell what happened to
his $200.
Bill Luoma
Students Can Help Re-Design The Gowanus Canal Area
The Brooklyn Chapter of The American Institute of Architects (AIA), in
conjunction with the Gowanus Canal Development Corporation and the Pratt
Institute Center for Community Development, are sponsoring a design
competition for the Gowanus Canal area. The competition is open to fourth
year students in the five architectural schools in New York City.
Although the competition will study one site which straddles the Canal, the
intent of the competition is to examine mixed use, as a development strategy
for the entire canal area. "The project has the size to as a discrete
component, but also play a part in future development," according to Don
Weston, FAIA, coordinator of the competition for the Brooklyn Chapter, "The
chosen site raises a particular question of how to establish a role and a
hierarchy of public space, relative to the public asset of the canal." It is
the hope of the sponsors that entrants maintain the balance between design
ideas and the realities of the difficult Brooklyn site.
The Gowanus Canal study area comprises 27 city blocks of predominantly
industrial uses, and a residential population of 20,000 people for the eight
census tracts surrounding the Canal. There are over 700 businesses of
various types and scale that employ approximately 5,500 people in the
industrial zones. "But, there is the more important question of how to make
places where working and living occur together," said Weston.
As a 19th Century barge canal, the Gowanus continues to serve as medium for
the transportation of oil, but the competition sponsors hope to tap its 21st
Century potential as a unique urban place. "The introduction of
recreational, residential, and other land uses will eventually lead to a
significant reassessment of the area as a sustainable environment," Weston
continued.
The Gowanus Canal was a creek named for Gouwane, a Canarsee chief and
Native-American. It was forever altered from a fishing and hunting ground to
a barge canal for commercial navigation by the late 1800's. The surrounding
marsh land was drained and the canal quickly became environmentally
dysfunctional.
In response, a 12-foot diameter tunnel 60 feet below grade was designed in
1909 and completed in 1991 to force water through the canal in concert with
the tidal action in Buttermilk Channel to the west and Gowanus Bay to the
south. The canal was dredged to depths of 7 to 12 feet at mean low water.
The tunnel's pumping mechanism failed in 1961, marking the beginning of a
35-year concentration of pollutants into an essentially dead body of water.
Today, the long awaited clean up of the Gowanus Canal is close to being
achieved and the competition site is in its final remediation stage from its
former use as a coal gasification plant. The canal is a barrier between two
established residential neighborhoods, Carroll Gardens to the west and
Gowanus to the east. The site on the Carroll Gardens side is essentially
residential and the south side is predominantly manufacturing, retail, or
service industry uses. The competition sponsors recognize mixed use markets
and refer to such precedents as Soho and Hunter's Point. "We seek solutions
which respect the canal's historical perspective, while encouraging design
concepts that will enrich Brooklyn's economic development."
Entrants are asked to consider how technology has changed the home and
workplace and how this gives mixed use added impetus. The project seeks to
address the needs for housing as well as studios and production workshops,
performance and exhibition spaces, and other amenities. Public access to the
waterfront is one of the requirements of each design.
The jury consists of Giorgio Cavaglieri, FAIA; Rex Curry, associate director,
Center for Community Environmental Development; John Loomis, AIA, Audrey
Matlock, AIA; Laura Osorio, AIA; Jan Pokorny, FAIA; Stephen Raphael, Esq.,
commissioner, Landmarks Preservation Foundation; Buddy Scotto, Gowanus Canal
Community Development Corp.; Ron Schiffman, commissioner City Planning
Commission; and Don Weston, FAIA.
It is planned that after the awards are announced, an exhibition and
conference to further discuss the selected schemes will be held.
The five schools who will be participating in the competition are Pratt
Institute, The Cooper Union, City College, New York Technical College, and
Parsons School of Design. The deadline for submissions is May 1, with
judging to be done by May 20. The entrants will be competing for scholarship
prizes totaling $3,000 provided by the Pat Raspante Scholarship Fund.
Raspante was a long time member of AIA/Brooklyn and a well respected
architectural educator. For more information, call the AIA of Brooklyn, at
627-1918.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 12:16:14 -0600
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: poetry video...
charles, yes---my remarks aimed at the attempt to popularize poetry by
usop... i'm looking to try to establish the benefit of same, i'm trying (as
peter elbow once put it) to play the 'believing game,' but with brain
intact...
and i was struck by my class's response the other night to john s. hall's
(as i recall) melted-candle-wax-on-nipples comedy routine (comedy to me,
that is)... a number of students preferred this latter to most of the other
videos (we didn't have time to watch 'em all)... and w/o any
interference---i assume b/c some saw themselves, their own abilities in
hall's routine---were eager to argue for the *value* of such effort as
equivalent to, for example, much of what i took to be more complex, more
sophisticated, more *poetic* work, writing-wise...
i can find no way to account for same w/o trying to understand the video
format of usop in terms of entertainment-performance, in terms of its
popular predecessors (which for me, again, are the mtv-vh1-style videos,
not the independent film-video scene)... and while, again, i have no axe to
grind with the popular per se, what i found and find most distressing is
the inability of my (undergrad., non-english major) students---who have
spent some time with much of the contemporary poetry discussed
hereabouts---to distinguish between writings of, imho, such wildly
divergent value *as writing*... these kids are motivated, and smart, but
mebbe sold-short some b/c of their cultural backdrop (and i hope not by me
in saying so)...
best,
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 13:59:48 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "John E. Matthias" <John.E.Matthias.1@ND.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bunting
Please, let's not forget Victoria Forde's _The Poetry of Basil Bunting_
(Bloodaxe, 1991). This was the first book on Bunting, and the one on which
he actively collaborated. As a dissertation--and the changes in the
published version are not radical--it was finished in 1973. It lacks the
sophistication of later work on Bunting, but has a charm (and, not to take
anything away from it, also an authority) all its own. Bunting's
correspondence with Victoria Forde is quite beautiful and ought to be
published, as of course should all the rest of his correspondence. Is
anyone working on this?
John Matthias
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 21:18:56 +0000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: cris cheek <cris@SLANG.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Macsweeney / Cambridge Poetry Conference
Those wanting to hear Macsweeney have a chance at this year's -
Sixth Cambridge Conference of Contemporary Poetry
at King's College, 26-28 April 1996 - Readings Discussion Performance
Friday - John James, Barry MacSweeney
Saturday - 11am Mas Abe, Adrian Harding, Simon Perrill
2pm editing discussion with Andrew Duncan, John Kinsella,
John Wilkinson
8pm Les A Murray, Ian Patterson, Lisa Robertson
Sunday 2pm Caroline Bergvall, Brian Catling, cris cheek
4pm Harry Gilonis, Rob MacKenzie
7pm Kelvin Corcoran, Alan Halsey, Pascalle Monnier
all inquiries: 0223 327455/321658
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 10:30:38 GMT+1300
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: Re: Bunting
or Butning etc. LOST in the move to my current office copy of
AGENDA-- a special on Bnuting some years back --- good value as I
recall. Btuning, that is.
Tony Green,
e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 10:34:55 GMT+1300
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: Re: Benjamin
makes me curious to know what the German says "fiery pool"?
Tony Green,
e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 20:13:22 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: poetry video...
joe a--interesting about john hall on USOP, at my gathering, someone
remarked, "how'd this one get in here?" w/ distaste. i myself enjoyed the
kookiness of it, w/ the cello duo in background and martini glass.
md
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:01:08 -0600
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: poetry video...
maria, that's just it: i'm feeling at once tightass and justified in
observing that the hall video---while a 'relief' in some ways from the
adjacent work---is playing to a distinctively different crowd... in fact
surfacing a key element at work in usop, which has to do (much) less with
poetry than with (a peculiar kind of) spectacle... which doesn't
necessarily contribute to a better poetic environs...
interesting that another student in the class remarked, in general, that
with a product to sell, some of the usop spots would make terrific
commercials... and another observed that she stopped listening to the words
after a while (thus an argument against video enhancing the audio)... just
so's i don't give the impression that the folks in my class aren't
thinking...
but i think, at the very least, that usop is playing to a different
audience than the one hereabouts, on poetics... in general, i mean, and i
wonder if the difference between mself and the members of my class has less
to do with my poetic background per se than with some generational
differences in our response to image technologies... as much as i like to
think of mself as hip, i mean, we're separated by approx. 20 years...
but mebbe i'm being *too* generous!...
best,
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 10:22:27 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: poetry video...
md--
i didn't get the USOP yet...
does HALL do "i am a sensitive artist" or "steal things from work"
on that?
cs
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 10:04:46 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Henry Gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: poetry video...
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:01:08 -0600 from
<amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU>
On Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:01:08 -0600 Joe Amato said:
>surfacing a key element at work in usop, which has to do (much) less with
>poetry than with (a peculiar kind of) spectacle... which doesn't
>necessarily contribute to a better poetic environs...
>
>but i think, at the very least, that usop is playing to a different
>audience than the one hereabouts, on poetics...
Seems like poets should be able to turn technology to their own purposes
- especially when they consider performance aspects of what they're doing.
I've been looking at the book Maria Damon mentioned - Gregory Nagy,
_Poetry as Performance: Homer & beyond_. He focuses on the idea of
refraction - or modulation, variation - the way a song "changes around"
both internally (modulation) and with repeated performances or
interpretations (variations, variants). Quotes some beautiful
lines from Homer about how when spring comes the nightingale in
the woods begins to modulate, "change the song around"; the idea
is that a strong song or poem has continuity - moving from performer to
performer and so on. An "oral" as opposed to scriptural sense of
song or text. What if we considered some elements of form -
modulated rhythm & repetitions - not as aids to "scriptural memory"
but as aids to repeat performance?
What does this have to do with poetry videos... well I think
some consideration of performance values would help put poets
in an active versus passive relation to media tech & its
cliches.
- Henry Gould
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 11:01:28 -0600
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: poetry video...
yes, i like that henry, that sense of active vs. passive encounter with
media techne... i recall speaking some (musta been) ten years ago with john
mason about the possibilities of poetry and video (where the hell IS john,
anyway?)... again, as charles and others indicate, usop is only (one of)
the most public of video-poetry efforts...
actually, though i agree with aldon in general about *voices & visions*, i
found particular moments in this latter series quite moving... if i'm not
mis-recollecting, those b & w shots of pound blankly walking around in his
room, with his voiceover on canto lxxxi... very powerful... unless this
latter is a dream inspired by that segment...
but i'm really at somewhat of a loss here, b/c while on the one hand i know
very little, actually, about video technology (i mean from a hands-on
viewpoint), i *do* feel justified in observing that the aural-cum-written
is overpowered by the visual... i still 'see' film as primarily a visual
technology, and i say this with due regard for the combined cinematic
effect of sound, music, foley work, etc... but given the relative info.
saturation of the network or cable image (whether 57 channels with nothin
on or no), the benefit of poetry as either spoken or writ (or both) seems
to me to be in its (however) performatively drawing the listener/reader in
on a---what adjective to use here once i hazard this sort of
distinction?---
[careful]? (hall is certainly careful)
[well-wrought]? (hall's is well-wrought in the context of his own aesthetic)
[aware]? (both hall and the video production team are aware of what they're
doing)
[complex]? (well---complex in terms of writing, perhaps not... BUT hall's
may be a
complex artifact when measured against that which he
mocks, regardless
my anecdotal evidence re reception of same)
[ ] making...
i suppose then, that there *is* a way to read/watch/experience the hall
video (poor hall!) in terms of its specifically video craft---and the
various traditions it's busy playing off against... but this is exactly
what the marketplace of video would seem to me to militate against, with
the result being (surprise surprise) that more intense or complex language
work per se is, in the popular sphere, potentially to be regarded as
elitist or exclusionary... of course there are good (historical) reasons
for being suspicious of 'literate' practices, of 'literacy' in general...
but then, at the same time, this is no excuse for a reduction of this
latter simply to gatekeeping hegemonies, either in fact or in perception of
same...
again the question would seem to turn on how one establishes the value of
poetry in particular, writing in general, in this vast semiotic sea...
given so many possible value schemes, i'm not sure i'm justified in my
relative disappointment wrt usop... esp. b/c it has its share of intriguing
moments...
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 11:29:40 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Patrick Foley <pfoley@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: poetry video...
>(which for me, again, are the mtv-vh1-style videos,
>not the independent film-video scene)
Joe, I don't think you need to say "mtv-vh1", just "mtv" will do b/c (well
at least I think) they own "vh1" among several others. I hear this fall
they're launching a spoken-word channel too, maybe PoTV.
Pat
(List-members: don't ask me where I heard that... It's a joke.)
<pfoley@earthlink.net>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 11:07:55 -0600
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Julie Marie Schmid <jschmid@BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Performance poetry/Nagy's book
In-Reply-To: <POETICS%96040410300128@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
In Henry Gould's posting, he mentioned a book by Gregory Nagy *Poetry as
Performance.* It appears that it may have already been discussed here,
but could you post some more bibliographic information regarding this
text? I'm working on a dissertation on performed poetries and this book
sounds like it might be really useful. Likewise, if anyone else out
there has suggestions for me--I'm looking specifically for texts that
discuss the event or the performance or the voicing of the poem, and I have
found "performance theory" (whatever that means) to be pretty useless
here--please feel free to either post them or send them to me directly.
Thanks so much.
Julie Schmid
jschmid@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 12:52:38 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Henry Gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Performance poetry/Nagy's book
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 4 Apr 1996 11:07:55 -0600 from
<jschmid@BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>
On Thu, 4 Apr 1996 11:07:55 -0600 Julie Marie Schmid said:
>In Henry Gould's posting, he mentioned a book by Gregory Nagy *Poetry as
>Performance.* It appears that it may have already been discussed here,
>but could you post some more bibliographic information regarding this
>text?
Nagy, Gregory / Poetry as performance: Homer and beyond
Cambridge UP, 1996
isbn 0521551358
HG
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:58:42 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: { brad brace } <bbrace@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: won the workers
MERCHANT NO.919 when he read that a man's life in a railroad accident was
saved by the strength of his shirt, he hunted up the man in the hospital,
then bought a lot a shirts of the same make, dressed a window with the
torn shirt and the new ones and held a successful sale.
--
The 12hr-ISBN-JPEG Project ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace
continuous hypermodern ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace
photo-art pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace
--
Usenet-news: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr/ a.b.p.fine-art.misc
Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg
Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html
__
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 13:39:00 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rod Smith <AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM>
Subject: Raworth reading at Bridge Street
Tom Raworth will be reading at Bridge Street Books,
2814 Pennsylvania Ave NW (across from the Biograph near
28th & Penn in Georgetown) at 8 PM on Tuesday April 9th.
You should come hear him he's very good.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 14:06:29 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Poetry City #6
POETRY CITY, hey!
POETRY POETRY CITY, hey!
Reading #6 tonight
Marcella Durand and Kim Lyons!
Women of Brooklyn read their work,
We'll have a really good time!
6:30 p.m. at Teachers & Writers.
CITY OF POETRY, hey!
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 17:46:13 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: poetry video...
hall does a piece on having his lover drip hot candle wax on his nipples. he
says, "i find it particularly enjoyable."--md
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 17:46:30 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: poetry video...
so i really am a yahoo, just like my colleagues think. so sue me: i like
just about everything except the fetishization of everything. i might even
like robot frost if people didn't drool all over him as if he weren't a
cranky old woman hating imperialist poet of the land-owning classes. as i sd
before i like bishop and merrill, so okay, i didn't really go for the cowboy
poetry on USOP, esp Sue Wallis (i get a kick out of imitating her saying, "we
head on back down the drawwww..."), and sure, lou reed at 50 still trying to
be underworldish w/ that weak last line (something flickered, then vanished
and was gone," or someting like tht), but come on. this is all part of
poetry too, not just debating over a fine point in some manuscript of
spicer's or shakespeare's. i guess it's my function on this list to say
stuff like this.
by the way, i got the new Kaufman selected, Cranial Guitar. I already told
y'all about my essay being dropped w/out notice frm the volume . well guess
whose prose --not full sentences, but certainly whole phrases --about his
being a cult figure, about his blending high culture and popular culture --is
all over the back cover, uncredited? my phrasing, my insights etc., all
anonymously rendered, thanks to the essay i delivered to coffee house press,
that dropped into a bermuda triangle of publishing. it's not as if there's a
large enough critical corpus on kaufman for this stuff to simply be part of
"common knowledge" about his work. also, my work not listed in the
bibliography in the back of the book --effectively erased from kaufman
critical history. i've heard about stuff like this happening to people but
this is the first time it's happened to me. i mean, it happens in different
ways institutionally, in my dept, but it's a first in my publishing career.
so. beware girls and boys. in a few days i may not think it's such a big
deal, but right now, it hurts.
bests, maria d
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 17:47:48 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Performance poetry/Nagy's book
nagy's book s a bit pedantic, but i like the genral poiiint hie's maiming
(sorry the typing)... coulda sed it in much less time/space...poetry is a
process, it exists in its improvisation, its variation, its aesthetic
reception, the form it takes in the performed moment... read also, perhaps,
clark coolidge's essay in talking poetics: naropa writing seminars
(shambhala press) cant' remember vol. 1 or 2, he talks about improv and
language as the "thinnest material we know" etc..., probably baraka has stuff
on iiiimprove as well, aldon might no...no?
sorry incoherent, repetitive strain injury etc awkwayrd position typiing and
also too much going oin...
maria dementa
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 18:33:41 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Patrick Foley <pfoley@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: poetry video...
From an Interview with Robert Creeley available somewhere on the web, I
forget where I got it:
Steve Luttrell: There also seems to be kind of a shift, if you will, of
emphasis, maybe,
upon performance poetry by way of these things they call poetry slams
away from the active publication--from the eye to the ear. It seems that the
ear is presently sort of running away.
Robert Creeley: Whatever that comes to, you can hardly knock it because
presumably
poetry begins with a pitch or a recital or a performance or a presentation.
And then, thanks to literacy, there is the ability to write it all down. So
it all
begins to move through books and all that. But the poetry that's
preoccupied me has always been primarily sounded. For example, you
couldn't really, finally, get Basil Bunting's poems unless you read them or
heard them. Otherwise, it becomes like reading musical scores without physical
sound. Even so I have a hard time ever saying that "this is right and
that's wrong." You know there was a time not so long ago when everybody
was down on concrete poetry because it really didn't make any sound at all.
If a way of doing it has a kind of delight, and makes something apparent or
makes something evident that wasn't, then that's terrific. I don't think one
has to make a kind of box in which all has to go. We're going to have the
same argument, expectedly, as to what do we do with electronically
generated poetry--what are we going to do with what is written on
computers--does that make it "no good"?
<pfoley@earthlink.net>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 16:30:18 -0600
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU>
Subject: my script for a poetry video...
(for a teacher i know)
HEE-YAW
minds steel'd through such immersion in
the highest of theories hearts impassion'd with
pedagogical fervor the likes of which you've never
seen bodies fuel'd with the rich nutty flavor of generic
cheerios
(that's cheery-ohhhhz
& pack(ag)ing only their portables
they march off to wage their war of words against the advertising
clan engaging first the sheer resistance of fully-functional
signage deployed strategically around the perimeter to ward off inquiring
minds & hearts & bodies fuel'd with the rich nutty flavor of generic
(repetez vous)
cheery-ohhhhz
next, the quizzical expressions of those who
like ourselves in this poem
think themselves unsuitable as institutional quarry
but taken captive nonetheless, just to be sure
bound & gagged
(we've worked ours loose a bit, they're treating us ok)
& its
teachers vs. teachers, folks
with a few dozens of arch-conservative pooh-bahs &
several hundreds of administrators & several
thousands of students
onlooking
chuckling
talk about combat
spoils
vic morrow woulda been
shoulda been
proud, that is
in punk persona
& above the din or
as rumor will have it
much later
beneath
they are inspired by a voice
some think is
frankie lane a singin
SOUND OFF
onetwo
SOUND ON
threefour
HEE-YAW
marlon perkins rises from the grave
to lend a helpin hand
we tell you
we say again
we repeat
in italics (for emphasis
*marlon perkins rises from the grave
to lend a helpin hand*
frankie lane a singin
SOUND OFF
onetwo
SOUND ON
threefour
HEE-YAW
HEE-YAW
HEE-YAW
; wild, wish you could see em
roundin up those stray ideodogies &
bringin em on home
enemy casualties a mountin
sense restored to its nonsenses---
meanwhile, back at the
math harvard berkeley montana ranch professing
no doubt wrongly
to blow up people
or people up
etc. etc.
& cogito, ergo the schools
like the prisons
like all orthogonal structures, in fact
are FULL
FULL
of how to tank (which comes from the portuguese word
meaning "to stanch"
which means
roughly
to stop the flow of
thought
which is
as its etymology would suggest
to etymologists
really not at all about
thinking
at all
as this poem
more exhortation
on thinking about it
than poetry though not
for no tastes, no &
yes, less about math or
teaching or
montana
pace zappa
but about
as he too knew
that eastern
western northern
southern intermountain
midatlantic midwestern
northeastern
southeastern southwestern northwestern
DESIRE
with as might be expected the CAPABILITY
aka WHEREWITHAL
more subtly, UNADORN'D PRIVILEGE RUN AMOK
here in the wonderless usa
in our chevrolets
& toyotas
banking on &
having been taught
to distribute the wealth
in one's own(ed)
backyard
--FUCK YOU--
that is
before that junkheap
bustedown
raggedyass
bastard
wreck
death
or
dying
or
[insert reasonable cinematic equivalent of same]
comes comin around
comin around the
comes comin around the
comin around the
bend round the
bend round the
bend
to
up:
--FUCK YOU
yep
---marchingmarchingmarching dumbfounded
only a little
by the confounding logic of that taunting refrain
mouthed, or more
or less improperly, mumbled
by the opposition, encamped [wink]
foot-in-one-another's-mouth, to wit:
"we simply must
instruct the feet
in the lessons of
lather-
rinse-
repeat"
in countrapuntal arrangement to which may be heard
according to those who listen carefully for such things
a catchy little jingle
composed by our redoubtable staff to accompany our tribe of choice
albeit our erstwhile oppressors (as above)
& bring solace & comfort to same
in the midst of internecine feud, to wit
& at wit's end:
"we simply must
inform the nose
of the rich nutty bouquet of
cheery-
ohhhz."
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 17:44:52 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: tosh berman <tosh@LOOP.COM>
Subject: Re: my script for a poetry video...
I am sorry but I still hate poetry videos. Again the best poetry on film
is Powell, Bunuel, Cocteau, & Keaton. Is there any video poetry that is
better than the poetry I mentioned.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 19:30:16 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Marisa Januzzi <Marisa.Januzzi@M.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Monte's Venetian Room
In-Reply-To: <960403123345_504717049@mail04>
Well
Properly speaking, Monte's (where i've spent several dozen new years eves
and had my hand kissed and seen the marble slabs go down upstairs...) is
the extension of Villa Mosconi, where the veal circulates a little more
freely with the business.
I like the line about entering the tradition the wrong way around and i
haven't slept in two days for class prep and I'm not HOME I'm in Utah but
thank god someone's theorizing Monte's
It gets better because Giovanni's daughter Angela worked for TASS the
soviet press agency, came back to work on a staten island paper and ended
up making her big break getting into the confidence of some mafioso in
prison. Little girls don't do that. Giovanni's got a picture of himself
with I think Michelle Marsh on the wall and he's real proud. Also the
last time Kenneth Koch went in there Giovanni asked if he could help
Angela's journalism career along, since he's such an important writer.
Fresh Airily,
--Marisa
(thanks)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 19:13:14 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: { brad brace } <bbrace@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: workingmen like this
MERCHANT NO.920 has rooms where men may change to evening clothes and back
again, keeping either suit there, without charge. He also has rooms where
men may try on collars and neckties.
--
The 12hr-ISBN-JPEG Project ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace
continuous hypermodern ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace
photo-art pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace
--
Usenet-news: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr/ a.b.p.fine-art.misc
Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg
Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html
__
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 19:54:08 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: { brad brace } <bbrace@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: beauty shop ideas
MERCHANT NO.921 held a beauty contest, offering prizes from 50 down to 15
dollars. Movie pictures were taken of the entrants, which were shown daily
for a week in a theatre, where the spectators decided the winner by
ballots.
--
The 12hr-ISBN-JPEG Project ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace
continuous hypermodern ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace
photo-art pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace
--
Usenet-news: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr/ a.b.p.fine-art.misc
Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg
Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html
__
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 20:19:59 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: { brad brace } <bbrace@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: no patent on this idea
MERCHANT NO.912 sold toy scooters at half price to women buying aluminum
ware on a certain Friday and Saturday.
--
The 12hr-ISBN-JPEG Project ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace
continuous hypermodern ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace
photo-art pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace
--
Usenet-news: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr/ a.b.p.fine-art.misc
Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg
Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html
__
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 21:32:10 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: contrasimilac
In-Reply-To: <199604040522.AAA10970@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
geez, david, touchy!
In reponse to the question posed here whether or not anybody "ever" got
to reading a poet by way of reading a critic, which seemed to me a fairly
bizarre question to begin with, I offered myself as at least one example
of at least one person who had read at least one poet after reading about
said poet in the writings of at least one critic -- Is there really
anybody on this list who would deny ever having done likewise? (maybe
so, we'll hear soon enough) --
What does any of that have to do with any "greatfulness" dead or alive or
anybody's sense of any form of writing being any less intelligent than
any other? I don't know of any poet who does not in fact act as a critic
in the act of reading and in the act of speaking of that reading with
others -- This desire to oppose oneself to "the critic" as "poet" is rank
--
I suspect at least one reader came to Whitman through reading of Whitman
in the criticism Whitman wrote of his own verse under a pseudonym -- In
which case I suppose Walt was greatful to himself -- he's always been
great to me --
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 23:16:04 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tenney Nathanson <tenney@AZSTARNET.COM>
Subject: The Attic Which Is Desire
>Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 11:57:01 -0500
>From: William Northcutt <William.Northcutt@UNI-BAYREUTH.DE>
>Subject: Benjamin
>
>-- [ From: William Northcutt * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
>
>Just re-discovered a great bit from Walter Benjamin in "One-Way Street":
>
>"What, in the end, makes advertisements so superior to criticism" Not what
>the moving red neon sign says--but the fiery pool reflecting it in the
>asphalt." (Reflections 86)
>
>Exchange "poetry" for "criticism."
>
>William
*****
I believe
Biscuit Tortoni, 25c per portion
***
* * *
* S *
* O *
* D *
* A *
* * *
***
and then there's the Buck-Morss book on the Arcades Project (I know no Greek)
cheers,
Tenney
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 05:10:36 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ward Tietz <100723.3166@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Re: Poetry Video
I agree with a lot of the recent comments on poetry video. The distribution of
contemporary work in video is so bad that it is almost impossible to have an
intelligent conversation about what is formally possible, but I'll venture some
comments nevertheless.
Poetry video, to me implies a quasi-documentary form, where the text is
understood and maintained as the primary compositional medium. Video documents
or embellishes the performative and presentational potential inherent to the
text.
Video poetry implies a different practice. It implies that video itself is the
primary compositional medium. Language can be performed and presented without
necessarily originating from a base text.
I've found that the ability to recognize poetry in video, or other media outside
of print, becomes practically impossible as text is given up as the
compositional format. Some early Gary Hill work is very textually based and
maintains a strong literary character. Other work, even when it contains
language, has difficulty maintaining a literary character, without this textual
base. William Wegman and Bill Viola have made some very poetic videos, but it
would be difficult to think of them as poetry.
Sound poetry suffers from this same problem. Some pieces appear literary and
others more musical or vocal. Considering all this I've come to believe that
the basic criterion for poetry is perhaps not language, but text. This is more
than obvious for traditional practice, but for work that investigates medial
boundaries such criteria aren't always apparent.
Ward Tietz
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 07:49:41 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: Not More Pound!
In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19960404231558.0a077bc4@mail.azstarnet.com> from "Tenney
Nathanson" at Apr 4, 96 11:16:04 pm
I realize this is rather on the personal side, but I thought I'd just
mention that Amelia Morgan Boughn entered this plane of existence on
April 3 at 5:38 PM. She has yet to say either Da or Ma to my face, but
as I drifted off in the hospital room after her rather dramatic
entrance, I could swear I heard someone in her direction mumbling "and
then went down to the ships, set keel to breakers, forth on the godly
seas."
Mike
mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 07:56:21 -0500
Reply-To: Robert Drake <au462@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Robert Drake <au462@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Performance poetry/Nagy's book
another source fr poetry/performance might be _The Poetry Reading:
compendium on language & performance_, Stephen Vincent & Ellen
Zweig eds, Momo Press 1981... many points ov view, some dated--
the three essays on poetry video, frinstance, we're written pre-MTV,
which means to me that they're written about a different media than
what we mean now when we say "video"...
lbd
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 08:44:05 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: my script for a poetry video...
hey tosh berman, there's no denying that what you describe is poetic film.
perhaps i'm being too literal minded by talking about videos OF poetry that
is self-consciously intended as such, whether or not "we" think it "merits"
the name "poetry." i thot that was the subject of discussion. personally i
only saw buster keaton films a few times when i was a kid, and found them
unbearably painful. i felt too much for the guy hanging off the skyscraper
or whatever, had no "critical distance" from which to admire it as a
performance. i just thot i was being forced to watch someone suffer while
people around me were laughing. maybe i'd laugh today. probly, since i've
been monty pythoned into a different sense of humor. i haven't ben trying to
convince you. i appreciate your high-art perspective. just yakking.--md
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 07:50:02 -0600
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Alexander <chax@MTN.ORG>
Subject: Re: my script for a poetry video...
>I am sorry but I still hate poetry videos. Again the best poetry on film
>is Powell, Bunuel, Cocteau, & Keaton. Is there any video poetry that is
>better than the poetry I mentioned.
Three cheers! and though I might add a name or two, these will do the job
nicely.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 09:26:03 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Not More Pound!
congratulations, mike boughn. may you relearn/unlearn wild language thru
your new little person friend.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 10:01:43 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Heller <hellerm@IS2.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 3 Apr 1996 to 4 Apr 1996
Comments: To: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <199604050631.BAA01083@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
FOR DC AREA PEOPLE
CARL RAKOSI WILL BE READING AT THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS ON 11 APRIL
6:30 PM THE MUMFORD ROOM OF THE LIBRARY'S MADISON BUILDING
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 10:08:45 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Heller <hellerm@IS2.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 3 Apr 1996 to 4 Apr 1996
In-Reply-To: <199604050631.BAA01083@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
FOR DC AREA RESIDENTS
CARL RAKOSI IS READING AT THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
APRIL 11TH AT 6:30PM
THE MUMFORD ROOM OF THE LIBRARY'S MADISON BUILDING
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 11:27:58 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Patrick Foley <pfoley@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: my script for a poetry video...
Reply to Maria Damon:
>personally i
>only saw buster keaton films a few times when i was a kid, and found them
>unbearably painful. i felt too much for the guy hanging off the skyscraper
>or whatever
That's Harold Lloyd.
<pfoley@earthlink.net>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 11:35:33 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: my script for a poetry video...
Well, my favorite poetry video is
"THE ADDICT WHICH IS DESIRE"
starring the UNABOMBER as Ezra-Pound....
but, seriously quertzblatz guyzies,
CHAX could've at least mentioned JLG-
especially the foreign film subtitle effect
which I always thought would be great in
american films by poets.....
cheers to amelia boughn....
(but hurry, give her a dose of something other than pound
quick!)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 11:44:47 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Patrick Foley <pfoley@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Ward Tietz on Poetry Video
>William Wegman and Bill Viola have made some very poetic videos, but it
>would be difficult to think of them as poetry.
>
>Ward Tietz
Yes. I've been kicking around for a few years the idea that there is some
similarity between film and poetry, just as there is between poetry and
music, because these are sequential arts, in time, unlike painting &
sculpture & architecture & ...
And film has something analogous to the linebreak, namely the CUT.
Montage can give film a sort of poetic structure, even though its materials
are visual (primarily) rather than linguistic.
That's my $0.02.
Pat
<pfoley@earthlink.net>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 09:01:26 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: tosh berman <tosh@LOOP.COM>
Subject: Re: my script for a poetry video...
> Well, my favorite poetry video is
> "THE ADDICT WHICH IS DESIRE"
> starring the UNABOMBER as Ezra-Pound....
>
> but, seriously quertzblatz guyzies,
> CHAX could've at least mentioned JLG-
> especially the foreign film subtitle effect
> which I always thought would be great in
> american films by poets.....
>
> cheers to amelia boughn....
> (but hurry, give her a dose of something other than pound
> quick!)
Very good point - Jean Luc Godard's use of text in his films are amazing!
And speaking of poetry videos - why don't they just make them with a black
background with white lettering and having a bouncing ball so you can read
along....follow the bouncing ball and see where it leads you!
tosh
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:13:32 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Emily Lloyd <emilyl@EROLS.COM>
Subject: Re: poetry video...
A stunning example of poetry & video working well together is Marlon Riggs'
"Tongues Untied"--short film about black gay culture featuring Essex
Hemphill. Someone, during the course of this thread, mentioned the tendency
of the visual to overpower the oral/language---how some students had said
"after a while, I stopped paying attention to the words." Oh, see this
film! The images are used in such a way as to get the viewer to focus on
the language...at one point, a phrase is repeated over & over, but rather
than "vanishing" into gibberish, it becomes more powerful, you start to take
the phrase apart, you start to hear each word separately...'least I did.
As for "stopping paying attention to the words," I often find it hard to
hear the words--or pay attention to them--at plain old poetry readings, when
the only visual barrier is the poet. I tend to think of
poetry-performed-well as separate from poetry-that-works-on-the-page, with
all the room in the world for overlap...performing & writing being, somehow,
such different activities...& find that often poets whose work I like on the
page are intolerably bad "performers"/readers....while some whose books I
wouldn't particularly want on my shelf dazzle live...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Emily Lloyd emilyl@erols.com
"It takes time to make queer people"--g stein
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 09:12:28 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: tosh berman <tosh@LOOP.COM>
Subject: Re: Poetry Video + sound
Interesting comments from Ward. I personally find all types of pop music
poetic, especially lyrics by Cole Porter, and early rock stuff from the
sixties -- "Psycotic Reaction," "Have I the Right to Hold You," and other
of that type. Mostly I think it depends where you are listening to those
songs, and what mential state you are in. I think how Dennis Potter
(Pennies from Heaven) use of popular songs has a strong "poetic" commentary
on the action that is taking place on the screen. So in other words I don't
really seperate the sound poetry of Kurt Schwitters from the so-called
blandness of Johnny Ray. Both of them deliver the punch to me. Also the
use of sound, text, and images from Godard is an amazing example of writing
poetry on the silver screen.
tosh
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 09:16:11 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: tosh berman <tosh@LOOP.COM>
Subject: Re: Ward Tietz on Poetry Video
...
>
>And film has something analogous to the linebreak, namely the CUT.
>
>Montage can give film a sort of poetic structure, even though its materials
>are visual (primarily) rather than linguistic.
>
>That's my $0.02.
>
>Pat
>
>
><pfoley@earthlink.net>
Yes, I totally agree with Pat, and let me add anothe $0.02. Reading Sergei
Eisenstein's "The Film Sense" should not only be a text book on film making
but also on poetry making!
tosh
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:54:10 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Henry Gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: poetry video...
In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:13:32 -0500 from <emilyl@EROLS.COM>
On Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:13:32 -0500 Emily Lloyd said:
>such different activities...& find that often poets whose work I like on the
>page are intolerably bad "performers"/readers....while some whose books I
>wouldn't particularly want on my shelf dazzle live...
So true, so true. I wonder if and how this relates to Nagy's theme of
variation and variant composition. When I read Nagy I thought of Mandelstam's
denigration of poetry "scribblers" & his own claim to "compose on the lips",
by ear, and repeated trying things out loud. Mandelstam also left
many variant versions especially of his later poems (though I guess
that was due just as much to his struggle on the edge of survival in
Russia at that time). But I think the oral/written raw/cooked biz
can fall into simple oppositions. Intense writing = rawness = conviction.
Sea-tang in the air;
fish not tasted; a poem
cooked until it's raw.
- Henry Gould
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:36:54 -0600
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Alexander <chax@MTN.ORG>
Subject: Re: my script for a poetry video...
> Well, my favorite poetry video is
> "THE ADDICT WHICH IS DESIRE"
> starring the UNABOMBER as Ezra-Pound....
>
> but, seriously quertzblatz guyzies,
> CHAX could've at least mentioned JLG-
> especially the foreign film subtitle effect
> which I always thought would be great in
> american films by poets.....
well, sure, and I like eric rohmer for making films of just yakking
but as poetry, I have to get in a plug for stan brakhage, who has taught me
a thing or two or three about light, and that's worth a lot more than the
price of admission
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:35:04 CST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jeff Hansen <Jeff_Hansen@BLAKE.PVT.K12.MN.US>
Organization: The Blake School
Subject: Poetic Briefs
Poetic Briefs number 20 will be out in the next week. It features a piece by
Peter Ganick, Text Why Text, and an essay on Clark Coolidge by our very own
Anthony Green, and responses to Mark Wallace's essay "Emerging Avant-Garde
Writers and the Post-Language Crisis." E-mail me with your address if you'd
like to get a copy.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:35:11 CST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jeff Hansen <Jeff_Hansen@BLAKE.PVT.K12.MN.US>
Organization: The Blake School
Subject: Alice Notely
Poetic Briefs 21 will contain a forum on "vision in poetry" in honor of Viking
press's publication of Alice Notely's "The Descent of Alette." We welcome
submissions of one thousand words or fewer that discuss either vision or any
aspect of Notely's work. E-mail me by June 5 with your briefs.
Thanks,
Jeff Hansen
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 14:00:04 -0500
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From: Eryque Gleason <eryque@ACMENET.NET>
Subject: Re: poetry video...
i think i may be a day or so late on this, but oh well...
i gotta respect an editor for putting john s. hall in the USOP video,
that's going *way* out on a limb i think, without, possibly, much support
for that thin branch. i take hall's solo stuff more as comedy than poetry
as well, and much of it to be more comedic than musical, even though King
Missle does have several pieces that i recognize more as songs than
anything else.
the disntinction between comedy/poetry in the case of hall seems to me to
be roughly equivilant to making the distinction between poetry/prose. why
draw such a line? i can certainly understand the reaction at maria's party
'who let that guy in?' but it seems that when we ask such a question, we're
really looking for a union card. like: "who told you that you could be a
poet? you gotta wear the white hard-hat for and be a Type-writer Operator
for at least two years, then *if* one of the yellow-hats moves up you get
to be Poet. And then later on, say after maybe ten years, one of the
foremen move up you get to wear the blue hat and be Editor."
anyway, i do see value in hall's work and work like it. the value i see
isn't that i'd really think of him as a Good Poet (whatever i mean by
that), but that his function may be to help keep the Serious Poets
(whatever i mean by that) in check, keep them from becoming stagnatingly
Serious.
in high school a friend and i used to wander across our campus, i'd play
the chords to "detachable penis" on my guitar and he'd recite the lyrics.
fresno at that time had a large mormon population, a large
fundamentalist-nondenomenational christian population, and a growing
jehovah's witness population. needless to say we weren't well recieved,
but no one *actually* hurt us.
eryque
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Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 15:07:38 -0500
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From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: metronomic underground / NYC part three
The phrase you can still overhear wherever two or three poets are gathered
in the name of poetry:
"essay production."
You bet I heard it at the SALT talks.
I even said it a few times.
_____
Day Three of the NYC Poetry Talks. Biblios Cafe, Sunday the 31st at 3.
Started a little late. Twenty seven poets, ran until about eight. A
mini-marathon. Standing in the back. A lot of lacunae for me near the
capuccino machine. Heard a little of Beth Anderson (cool new poems in
Arshile), heard slightly more of John Byrum (good reading), heard very
little of Sianne Ngai. Joe Ross I could hear. Joe read from the 'Fuzzy
Logic' series. Chris Stroffolino read his 'phish' piece, thought it went
fine, Chris, don't know what Lisa meant. She's, you know, opinionated. So
are you. Mark Wallace read, he'd handed over his 'Lawless Man' chapbook
pub'd by A L Nielsen of the funny headers. Couldn't hear him. Sorry, Mark.
Made sure I sat down for the 4 pm readers (poetry time, about 4:40). Lee
Ann Brown said she was nervous. Aw she was fine. She read her
fortune-cookie piece, it got people. Tim Davis read some work with mucho
'brucismo' (Ben Friedlander's phrase). He's swell, he's reading at segue on
the 12th. He'd read the week before at Biblios with Stephen Rodefer who was
in the house. Michael Friedman came on. Very subtle disjunct prose poems
(from _Cameo_, The Figures): "The sign on the trunk said 'free'." Lisa
Jarnot read a poem shoot I can't find the title. It was as Mr Rodefer said
'grand'. Bill Luoma read his terrifying/funny sex/relationship poem. Dug
Rothschild came on with hockey gloves and signs. License plate poems. Then
said 'This is for the Canadians' and threw his hands down, the gloves onto
the floor. Rod Smith followed said tough act gracefully, we all as someone
said during the reading 'leaning by the john door'. When he stopped reading
we all stopped breathing. Cool.
Five p.m. hour I was stuck back in the back again. Heard some of Martine
Bellen's murasakiwerk (I think). Garrett Kalleberg (hey Garrett!) read a
poem of friendly affect, Sean Killian read a poem (about a cantor) of
intense, Beckett- or Bernhardesque affect, Andrew Levy read a poem of cool
affect, Dan Machlin read some poems of perverse affect (hey Dan! feel free
to contradict me), Heather Ramsdell read two poems including her poem
ending 'Do you like my hat' that I like so much. Unclear affect because
using rich language and total disruption--interesting effect. Sam Truitt
read a poem of intense, Schuyler- or Ashberyan affect--a distillate.
Then the last excellent okay hour. I forget what happened. I read, I think
about a minute over my limit. The excellent Joe Elliott of ye Biblios read
from his 'poems to be centered on much larger sheets of paper'. The
excellent Liz Fodaski read some poems, have you seen her poems? For that
matter, have you seen Deirdre Kovac's poems (hey! Deirdre)? They have this
clarity of line that's startling. The excellent Robert V. Hale (okay, my
publisher, he's excellent anyway) read a poem for Joe Elliott's newborn
son, Leo. The excellent Kim Lyons read some poems--more Kim in this week's
Poetry City report. The excellent Brian Kim Stefans read some poems written
using Lotus 1-2-3, including the one about his mother being a dim bulb.
Okay not his mom, Robert Duncan's mom. Okay, not Duncan's mom, but his line
about the falconress. And then...
Fiona Templeton read a section from her new work, to be performed this fall
at the Kitchen. Everybody in the room, everything in the room, people on
the street, everything focused in on her while she read. Whispers, altered
nursery rhymes, different voices. If you've been thinking about the site
specific/ zenobia/venice project, you ought to get in touch with the
organizers soon--Fiona is the featured artist of the program.
___
Then we went to Nam Phuong (http://phuong.com) or (http://www.phuong.com).
___
happy holidays,
Jordan
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Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 15:30:23 -0500
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From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: poetry video...
eryque --re comedy/poetry; i take lenny bruce very seriously as a poet, but
when i offered to write an entry for him for the encylcopedia of jewish poets
and playwrights, they said naaahh; more puzzling ws they also sed naaah to
gertrude stein and david antin. i'd written on bruce and antin in Cultural
Studies back in 1990 or 1991, so i guess ive internalized that continuum.--md
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Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 15:30:30 -0500
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From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: poetry video...
yes emily thanks for mentioning marlon riggs. and as for "stopping listening
to the words," what's wrong w/ that? that seems like just another mode of
listening. like john cage sd, if u think something is boring after 10
minutes, try it for another 10 minutes and it'll become interesting.
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Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 15:30:38 -0500
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From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: poetry video...
ps emily, doesn't gertrude say, it takes time to make A queer people? that's
how i remember it, but now that i look it up in my bk, it's as you quoted
it. the next sentence is about the generation that knows not joseph. i'm
sure u cn c where i'm going w/ this...i lovd your dream abt. gertrude, but i
tend to think thta you do know what yr talking about a lot of the
time...bests, maria d
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Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 15:30:55 -0500
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From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: my script for a poetry video...
Reply to Maria Damon:
>personally i
>only saw buster keaton films a few times when i was a kid, and found them
>unbearably painful. i felt too much for the guy hanging off the skyscraper
>or whatever
That's Harold Lloyd.
---
oh well, my yahoo-ism doubly underscored...didn't buster do anything about
hanging on the arm of a large clock? i mean hand?
md
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Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 16:05:54 -0500
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From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: my script for a poetry video...
Dear Charles--
good plug for brackhage....
very subtle filmaker....forces me to SLOW DOWN, very DEMANDING
the undergrad teacher, Gary Adelstein, who turned me on to both
poetry and independent film (i used to make super 8's back in the
pre video-craze days and when i could glom parasitically onto an
institutional structure that provided me free access to equipment)
tells me that he's now working on landscape films (a la Brackhage)
but based on James Schuyler poems.....
It'd be great to see it....
Le Ann Brown at the NYU poetry talks, by the way, suggested that
poets and filmakers may collaborate far more among "my" generation
than in the past and maybe some young marjorie perloff could eventually
write a book POET AMONG FILMAKERS....
but I'm jumping ahead of the game....
what is needed is more film shows in NYC...
like in the heydey of the L scene and Henry Hill's great
"MONEY" movie......
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Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 14:16:24 -0700
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From: main <feathers@U.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ward Tietz on Poetry Video
Comments: To: tosh berman <tosh@LOOP.COM>
In-Reply-To: <v01520d03ad8a959454e4@[206.138.118.138]>
On Fri, 5 Apr 1996, tosh berman wrote:
> ...
> >
> >And film has something analogous to the linebreak, namely the CUT.
> >
> >Montage can give film a sort of poetic structure, even though its materials
> >are visual (primarily) rather than linguistic.
> >
> >That's my $0.02.
> >
> >Pat
> >
> >
> ><pfoley@earthlink.net>
>
>
> Yes, I totally agree with Pat, and let me add anothe $0.02. Reading Sergei
> Eisenstein's "The Film Sense" should not only be a text book on film making
> but also on poetry making!
>
>
> tosh
>
eisenstein's _film form- makes cents, too: particularly "cinematographic
principle and the ideogram" & "dialectic approach to film form" up the
ante on pound/fenollosa "ideogram.
dan
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Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 10:49:50 CST
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From: David Baratier <dave.baratier@MOSBY.COM>
Subject: monte's venetian
Bill Luoma
Thanks for the the extra information on the Nogo area, in a number of
ways I found that piece more interesting than talking about "poetics,"
perhaps cause community and dialect fit as a direct source, or purer
source of defining a piece. I take it chris was wondering if the area
existed, and if so for more information. There is a reading in
Brooklyn we're involved in the end of May, I was wondering if you knew
any thing about the place before either chris or I accept. Could you
send me your e-mail address to:
dave.baratier@mosby.com
One thing seems funny, not many people wrote about NY.
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Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 21:26:11 -0500
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From: Bob Holman <Nuyopoman@AOL.COM>
Subject: Poetry video
I ve been off-line here --what a rush to come back to roaring controversy re:
poetry video.
Thanks, Maria for your report on the United States of Poetry party at Woods
Hole (I lived there in early 70s, co-founded the Woods Hole Theater Co.,
whose Wizard of Oz rainbow still adorns the Fishmongers) -- to me, that s
what it s all about, and I ve partied hardy w/ the show across the country,
turning people onto the possibilities of poetry. It s too obvious, the new
audience for poetry -- it s the _same_ audience for poetry, it s just that
the audience didn t know it, couldn t find its way to the po, had written po
off to people who defend its purity by proclaiming Bunuel/Fuller/Keaton are
the true poets of film. Really, Tosh, I thought we all knew Tati is film s
poet laureate! It always gets me how it s great for everything else to be
poetic, except poetry.
To respond to someone who writes in asking for info about poetry videos by
declaring you hate them but here s a list of my favorite cinema auteurs is
to say, yup, I define it, and if you re interested in what I _think_ you are,
go away (more Oz?)! I can t think of a better example of turning off someone
who might be interested in poetry.
The impulse behind USOP is the opposite. It s for getting poetry to people,
for utilizing TV as a means to do that. It s for letting poets define what a
poem is, and saying that those who write poems are poets. It s for letting
the poem as spoken be a poem, and it s for making it new with no prejudice
against whatever technological media we ve got to transmit the poem.
And of course it s for declaring that there s not a single culture that makes
up these so-called united States, and that there are poets in all of them.
And it s for a direct connect to the poem, no interviewer-expert-footnote,
no contextualization but the thing itself.
So the arguments go something like this: are the poems in USOP poems? does
the visual "overpower" the word? do the translations illustrate rather than
illuminate -- which where how why? What production values must be maintained
to get a show broadcast? Was it Johnny Depp wot got the poems into TV Guide?
How about the use of the visible narrator in the Ruth Forman piece? Is the
doggy at the tail of Rev Pedro Pietri s poem a nod to _Entr acte_? Who is
Besmilr Brigham?
I would not have been motivated to do vidpo s, USOP, or even get involved in
le Monde du Slam, if it weren t that I love the poem, am poem-addict, and
don t understand why there aren t more of us, if I didn t meet all kinds of
people who make gagging gestures at the mention of poetry s name and
disbelief that a living being could be a poet (anybody see Rothstein s On
Trying to Name Famous Living Poets in last Sunday s NYTimes?). Poetry woke
me up to other cultures, let me hear truth, see beauty. Am I yahooing po to
say all this?
Can these words stand up to images, be translated to this other medium,
find a new book? Do we need them? No, not, _not_ you you -- you you ya
yoyo!
Not surprising that Joe liked the Eigner piece the best: I ll bet it s his
fave poem as text, too. So I ll take it as a compliment, and I ll pass it
along to the director, Mark Pellington, who was the other major collaborator
with the poets and me. Even though the piece was a documentary-style, more
MTV-ish. When I think of the wrong steps we almost took....suffice it to say
it was a battle to keep Larry s voice in, and that along the way Grenier,
Foley and Watten all helped in the process. Because to make that poem took a
whole different pencil/typewriter/computer.
I ll reply more later, esp. Amato s _hilarious_ poetry video filmscript (more
camera angles, pulease!) and the John S Hall controversy shortly. I d
appreciate your letting me know if you hear any of the USOP soundtrack (Mouth
Almighty/Mercury Records). Happy National Poetry Month.
Bob Holman
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Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 19:41:44 -0800
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From: mikl-em <mike@KID-LINEAR.TAYLOR.ORG>
Subject: Re: who's cooking and who's in the fire
yunno, I still haven't seen the USOP vid, but Joe's probs with the Hall
piece brought me out of my lurk,
I think you nailed it right off Joe with the opinion that Hall is a
comedy routine, as Maria is right on that Lenny Bruce can be reckoned
with in the terms of poetry
but let me stick with comedy for a second to make my point and then I'll
try to transpose it: I've heard Hall's stuff for a long time, Chris S
mentiond a couple ofhis old pieces, these fall more into the "charming
naive" field that Chris D brought to light a while back,
but there is this tendency --I believe becuz the Bulk of people in this
country wrongly think that there is no poetry for them-- to say "um, poetry
is still-born, but long-live SPOKEN WORD!"
and that is bunk becuz besides turning away from written
poetries and other creative a-fictions, there are a lot of legitimate
oral-poets that are outside of Literary circles, more in the realm of
music, folks like Gil-Scott Heron, Mutabaruka, Jim Carrol's work <the
_Praying Mantis_ lp> who are now on this silly secondstage-palooza event
of Spoken Word with Rollins, Hall, Jello Biafra and others--Howard Stern
will probably have a spoken album out soon, and I wouldn't blame him but
the people who buy it.
as i meant to say, I compare Hall's comedy with Dave Barry's writing or
Mark Leyner, all of them can generate some Great material--so can
Rollins--but at that point, what happens? (joe, "hall's is well-wrought in
the context of his own aesthetic") well if not the wroughting, let's blame
the aesthetic.
any creator is ultimately responsible for the work he puts out--to me
that means that all the critical opines upon it are welcome, it is like
water-testing a new boat or something, that is to say that if you left a
sharp edge then either you left it for a reason or you knew it was there
somehow, that's what an artist does and why it is important and why it is
not easy.
and I don't see that kindof responsibility taken by the artists I just
mentioned, and it is one thing if it is improvised and another if it is a
studio recorded or frequently read piece, particularly it disappoints me in
leyner becuz his work is really funny, but doesn't leave me with the
satisfaction of say Tom Robbins best work which is Wrought well [done well
cooked to the finest of degree].
it is that suggestion that this is something cooked, and you bite into it
and of course you feel a bit queasy --I kno that I've altered the idea of
raw-cookt that we'd discussed earlier, but I trust it makes my point--
and I think that that can be applied to poetry as well, and maybe take me
back to the original idea of the raw-cook chotomy, either you chase down
all the connotations and srestle the dogs, tie their ankles in aknot, or
you create a field which somehow activates the varying threads perhaps
playing on the obvious bias or courting contradicitions, so that what is
left out or not addressed is a par t of the aesthetic as much as what is
in.
and the c-naive folks work alot of the time on Instinct for what is
better unaddressed to be more successfully dealt with, it needn't be
entirely conscious. did someone say Patchen again?
and unfortuantely video and recording spoken performances don't generally
take themselves as seriously <whether comedy or serious> probably becuz
they locate themselves more within the context of tv than literature. But
I believe that things will get better, they will also get worse.
well, that's about 18 bucks and change, so I'll go back to lurk.
mikl.
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Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 07:31:50 +0200
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From: "William M. Northcutt" <William.Northcutt@UNI-BAYREUTH.DE>
Subject: Re: Not more Pound!
Hey, Mike, congratulations!
I had a similar experience, except that my son muttered something about
building a hut out of clay and wattles, and my daughter sang, "Scuse me
while I kiss the sky." And still the dialectic continues....
William
-----------------------------------
William Northcutt
Anglistik I
Universitaet Bayreuth
95440 Bayreuth
Tel: 44 921 980612
Fax: 44 921 553641
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Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 23:44:19 -0600
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From: Michelle Roberts <meaghan@UTDALLAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: contrasimilac
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960404212449.1547A-100000@athens>
Please, y'all, consider this a modest offering.
Ever since I started work on a creative master's thesis, in which I had
to play both poet and critic, I've wondered waht eht tension is between
"writers" and "critics". I tend to think it's the result of there being
some really flat critics out there, really uninspiring critics. I've
always thought that a critics job is, among other things, to make the
reader of a peice of critique WANT to read the piece of literature. To
be a creature who allows themselves to be in a state of wonder and to
offer that to the rreader, simply to offer them an "in". Please don't
accuse me of being naive and utopic, I know I am. I think that a critic
needs to have both a rigorous insight and a great care for the works they
work on. Most don't, and some don't have either one. My own is not the
only work I've written about critically -- can't get through grad school
that way -- and since I wonder how I would even mannage to find anything
to say about a work that I didn't feel care and respect for, I wonder how
those flat critics do it. And, while I'm on the subject, how do y'all
feel about the idea that critique is just as creative an act, albeit in
another direction, as writing poetry or fiction or philosophy is?
Also, I s'pose I'm writing this becasue I don't what hte tension between
author and critic accomplishes. Do critics get their feathers ruffled
over this?
Curious,
M.
Meaghan Roberts | ... in our interpreted world...
Ph.D. Candidate - Ethics and Literature |
The University of Texas at Dallas |
Meaghan@UTDALLAS.EDU |
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Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 22:53:17 -0800
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From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Essex Hemphill
In-Reply-To: <199604060521.AAA04061@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
I have to admit that I am not as big a fan of the films & videos of
Marlon Riggs as everybody else seems to be, but _Tongues Untied_.
mentioned here by Emily, has also, now, for me, the quality of a
memorial. Not only is the maker of the film now deceased, but the poet
in the film, Essex Hemphill, has since died. Essex was a powerhouse for
poetry during the days when we both attended what was then called Federal
City College. We first met as admirers of one another's poems in one of
the college mags. Shortly thereafter he began his magazine, _Nethula_,
which was a wonder of eclectic and electric editing while it lasted.
Near the end of his life, Essex's poems & prose were finally published in
a readily available edition, still on the shelves in many stores -- But
that slender book gives no sense of the full energies and the generosity
of this tireless propagandist for the imagination. Essex was a
courageous friend and poet all his life -- and _Tongues Untied_ will at
least give a glimpse of what it was like to know him --
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Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 23:07:03 -0800
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From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kaufmania
In-Reply-To: <199604060521.AAA04061@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
_Cranial Guitar_ just showed up on this coast today, so haven't had time
to roam through it yet -- but, thought Kaufmanophiles would be innerested
to know
an odd little book pub'd in '93 by Graywolf press has one of the oddest
takes on BK I've ever seen (the author, for example, believes the story
about Kaufman running arms for the Likud, but does not believe Kaufman's
silence was deliberate) Book is titled _Episodes_ and is by Pierre
Delattre, who will be well known to old San Francisco folk from his days
at the Bread & Wine Mission -- also has funny tale of his involvement in
the disastrous movie of Kerouac's _Sunbterraneans_
Maria -- does the secret essay whisper? can I get a copy?
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 00:31:14 -0800
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From: tosh berman <tosh@LOOP.COM>
Subject: Re: my script for a poetry video...
>---
>oh well, my yahoo-ism doubly underscored...didn't buster do anything about
>hanging on the arm of a large clock? i mean hand?
>md
No, Buster was not that scary. His ability to move with time, space,
objects, and god knows what else was amazing. He just accepted all the
elements, objects, and most important - space. I think space is important
in poetry, and Keaton's sense of space in his films were remarkable. Not
studied, but more that he had an expression of knowing the right place at
the right time. Now, is that not poetry?
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Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 04:11:02 -0800
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From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: poetry, video, film, etc
Chris & Charles,
>
>> Well, my favorite poetry video is
>> "THE ADDICT WHICH IS DESIRE"
>> starring the UNABOMBER as Ezra-Pound....
>>
>> but, seriously quertzblatz guyzies,
>> CHAX could've at least mentioned JLG-
>> especially the foreign film subtitle effect
>> which I always thought would be great in
>> american films by poets.....
>
>
>well, sure, and I like eric rohmer for making films of just yakking
>
>but as poetry, I have to get in a plug for stan brakhage, who has
taught me
>a thing or two or three about light, and that's worth a lot more than
the
>price of admission
>
I'd add anything by Dziga Vertov or Michael Snow. Also, there was a
film in the early 70s or thereabouts called "Frank Film" by Frank
Mouris (I think that's how he spelled his surname). It piled up images
in a way that made it quite apparent could be done for language -- with
the use of multiple soundtracks that were completely intelligible.
Among our contemporaries, Abigail Child and Henry Hills have each made
several luminous and wonderful films. Abby's films, or at least some of
them, are available on video -- I remember that we used some of them
once at a fundraiser for Socialist Review. (Wish I recalled where/how
one could rent or buy those.)
I'm a total sucker for the Godard of the late 60s and for the
Fassbinder of the 70s. But I think that's another story...
------------
Charles,
The Bounty has arrived and it's another beautiful book from Chax.
Congratulations!
Ron Silliman
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 08:41:40 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: my script for a poetry video...
tosh writes: Now, is that not poetry? (keaton)
well sure. thanks for setting me straight. i'll try to rent some keaton
films and groove to the move. i've got a vcr for a week cuz a lady's staying
w/ me who got kicked out of her other place. watched black orpheus, had
never seen it, found it embarrassingly primitivistic after all the hype. but
the leads were very cute and the dancing was nice.
i don't really know what's at stake on this list in determining what "is" and
"isn't" "poetry" --in the context of this haute-haute list, i'd argue for a
wider definition of poetry than seems admissible in POETRICKS discourse
--perelman once remarked when i described my classes to him, that it seemed i
was aiming to have students cultivate their "sociolinguistic awareness of
their environment" or some more elegant and descriptive phrase. what beyond
that, he asked. i sd, if i cd do just that, esp in minnesota, where words
are considered the devil's work, i'd be happy.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 08:41:47 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Essex Hemphill
aldon; what's your critique of marlon riggs's films? i've never heard from
anyone who wasn't a total fan. waiting w/ bated breath...maria d
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 08:41:55 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: contrasimilac
meaghan roberts:
as a "critic," i feel somewhat defensive about critic-bashing, and
academic-bashing, in the "creative" writing world. as a poetry person, i
feel defensive and somewhat disgusted by academic critics' dismissal of
writers as naive, scary, anarchic. it's worst among grad students, who are
learning the ropes and thus exaggerate the prejudices of their more advanced
colleagues --the anxiety that comes over them when asked to do something that
dosn't track neatly into the categories they're busy trhing to learn. but
that's understandable. i feel more exasperation with my more advanced
colleagues who don't "get" that the study and practice of literature can
involve joy and spontaneity. it's a kind of fearfulness that may plague
every institution, but i see it writ large at mine.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 09:58:55 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Walter K. Lew" <WalterLew@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: poetry video...
[Message deleted]
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 09:46:00 -0600
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Julie Marie Schmid <jschmid@BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>
Subject: Re: literary multiculturalism
In-Reply-To: <960406095854_507108369@emout10.mail.aol.com>
Dear Walter Lew--
I read your posting to Maria here and wanted to respond to your call for
"literary multiculutralists." I recently joined the discussion group and
have been skulking around the postings for about two months now. Like
you, I would like to see the discussions opened up to reflect what's
actually going on in the poetic community (whatever that means) a little
more accurately. In other words, where is any sort of acknowledgement or
discussion or rap, slams, dub poetry, performance poetry, the Last Poets,
Nuyoricans or their countparts in Chicago, Black Arts, etc.? I'm
particularly
surprised that none of this has come up in the discussion of the USOP
video--which, for all its faults, so clearly tried to celebrate the many
poetries of the US. My own hunch is that much of this poetry is still
read more as some sort of social or historical documentation a la
cultural studies rather than as art or poetry. (I am writing this with
the full realization that these are all loaded terms and that someone is
going to jump down my throat for this.) I was struck by Maria D's
comment a couple weeks ago about her inclusion of the young poets from
Boston in *The Dark End of the Street* as being read as a "political"
move rather than as her appreciation for the poetry. It's interesting
that this sort of blatant classism is still
foregrounded in our evaluation of poetry. This really hits a nerve for
me, as you can tell, because much of my own work has been on urban
(often bilingual) poets
and poetry that people keep insisting that I read as artifacts of
post-colonialism, racism, etc., but not as beautiful and moving
poetry--as if these poets aren't consciously and consistently crafting
language--really hearing what happens between languages, and also as if
there
is a tangible difference between political and aesthetic categories.
Anyhow, Walter( and whoever else out there is reading this), the point of
this diatribe is to let you know that I would be more than willing to
discuss a multicultural poetics with you or anyone else, either here or
via my email address.
Cheers,
Julie Schmid
jschimd@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 12:32:00 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Patrick Foley <pfoley@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: my script for a poetry video...
>i'll try to rent some keaton
>films and groove to the move.
Start with _The General_ Maria.
Cheers, Pat
<pfoley@earthlink.net>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 10:57:01 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: tosh berman <tosh@LOOP.COM>
Subject: Re: my script for a poetry video...
>tosh writes: Now, is that not poetry? (keaton)
>
>well sure. thanks for setting me straight. i'll try to rent some keaton
>films and groove to the move. i've got a vcr for a week cuz a lady's staying
>w/ me who got kicked out of her other place. watched black orpheus, had
>never seen it, found it embarrassingly primitivistic after all the hype. but
>the leads were very cute and the dancing was nice.
I have always had/have/ a strong interest in the relationship between
poetry and film. Many of the early french filmmakers were poets, or at
least writers. The early experimental french Filmmakers were influenced by
poetry i.e. Cocteau, Man Ray, Duchamp (his one film is text base as well as
visual - of course), Durac, Bunuel,etc. Also many poets are huge fans of
the cinema - including Wieners, Cendrars, all of the Surrealists, etc. It
will be interesting to collect a series of poems that deals directly with
cinema for an anthology. I know there has been collections under that
theme - but not in my opinion a serious anthology that deals with the
direct influence of cinema on poetry...or poems that have strong cinematic
images, or direct comments on particular films. ...and yes, in my mind,
Buster Keaton wrote poetry on a projecting light!
tosh
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 13:58:40 -0600
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tim Wood <twood@CONNECT.NET>
Subject: Re: poetry video...
Joe,
I still haven't seen all of USoP, unfortunately. It won't screen here in
its entirety until later this month, so wait. Several segments were aired
at the Dallas Video Festival in January, including the one with Eigner.
Agreed. One of the reasons it does work is the silence and spaces.
Another intriguing thought your email raised was the question, in video, of
what consititutes silence. There was no true silence in the Eigner piece,
with the constant rain. But, it created significant spaces and for the
average American, those spaces were so quiet, they might as well have been
silence.
Wanda coleman doesn't ring a bell, but hopefully I'll see her work when the
whole thing screens here.
Tim
>re poetry videos in general, the united states of poetry in particular,
>which i just yesterday had a chance to view in toto: some poetry videos
>seem to work better---much better---than others, *as videos*... the son et
>lumiere effect represents a different art form, just as music videos
>represent a different art form than the music alone... when these latter
>first came out (in the contemporary mtv scene, i mean) there were many
>musical 'purists' who objected to same...
>
>the difficulty is that most music videos represent a translation from one
>pop cultural venue to another, whereas to transfigure poetry as video, as
>in the united states of poetry, tends to move poetry into a pop cultural
>format---with which it's not always associated, depending on the
>community... there's also the oral/aural motioning of our culture in
>general, and how this 'plays into' the video format in ways that sheer
>sound alone may not... in terms of poetry, sound alone may offer more
>resistance than video to commodity pressures...
>
>but this depends, and yeah, there are risks here, fer sure... i found wanda
>coleman's video successful precisely b/c it challenged the rec'd qvc-tv
>format... that is, it subverted the consumer venue AS venue... sure, there
>are some works about which it might be argued that they are inherently more
>performative... but interestingly, the least performance-oriented
>video---"performance" here taken to mean something like
>'entertainment'---was larry eigner's... and for me, this was far and away
>the most fascinating display of poiesis, hence from another pov the finest
>performance (and i don't mean at all to suggest that the eigner video
>required less active work for the film crew editor etc)...
>
>mebbe the most valuable aspect of the united states of poetry, for me, was
>its celebratory sense of a diverse culture with diverse voices---a diverse
>practice... this format works best for me in small doses, in part b/c so
>much of what i find crucial to poetic practice simply can't be
>'visualized,' IS about the silences & solitudes attendant to
>writer-speaker/reader-listener interaction (even during the noisiest,
>community-based readings) as opposed to the singular Self espousing to the
>mass (anonymous) audience... but like all formats, video is surely a format
>that poets can learn from and work with, no?...
>
>joe
in space no one can hear you scream
in Dallas no one cares...
______________________________________________________________________________
Check out the Voices new poetry website at http://www.connect.net/twood/
the Word, Dallas' monthly arts guide: http://www/connect.net/twood/word.html
poetry & video poetry ---- graphic design & database development
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 13:58:45 -0600
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tim Wood <twood@CONNECT.NET>
Subject: Re: poetry video...
I want to thank everyone for the flood of responses. Just a few thoughts
to clarify what I'm up to..
I'm not interested in poetry documentary. Documentary is nice. And I
think it would help a lot of the so-called performance poets out there to
videotape themselves as a form of self critique/directing. But, I'm more
interested in work in which the visual is used artistically, as well as the
words. In the case of USoP, much of the visuals are of the poets
performing, but there's some very intense post-production applied to shove
the work out of the documentary realm.
United States of Poetry was not what kicked this research off. I've
actually been working on the research as time permits for about a year now.
I found out about USoP because someone mentioned Bob Holman's name and
gave me a phone number. Anway, not to take anything away from Bob's work,
but I'm not jumping into this research because poetry video has all of a
sudden become hip.
USoP is definately not the be-all-end-all of poetry video. It's definately
the most accessible, commercial interpretation of the media. But, there's
a lot more to be seen out there. Now if I could just get at more of it...
all things come to those who wait?
Again, thanks for the responses & (I hope) the ones to come. Illuminating,
insightful, occasionally argumentative, but worth the ride, as always...
Tim
in space no one can hear you scream
in Dallas no one cares...
______________________________________________________________________________
Check out the Voices new poetry website at http://www.connect.net/twood/
the Word, Dallas' monthly arts guide: http://www/connect.net/twood/word.html
poetry & video poetry ---- graphic design & database development
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 13:59:02 -0600
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tim Wood <twood@CONNECT.NET>
Subject: Re: poetry video...
Joe,
I'll jump in on this one. I think we're running into a combination of
factors here. For once, admitting I'm (just) under 30 may have an
advantage. There is something to be said for the generational difference,
primarily in terms of what might variously be called cultural literacy or
environment. Extreme immersion in the visual seems to be a hallmark of the
generation I'm at the older end of and has created a markedly different
perspective.
At the same time, we're also running into the current hippness of slam and
"performance" poetry. It's a sad statement that too much of that category
of work is about shock, sex, violence and entertainment to win the night's
prize. That observation has little to do with generational gaps. I've
seen a fair share of people of the "baby-boomer" generation down at the
weekly slam throwing about their fair share of image shock.
At the same time, there are a fair number of younger poets lurking around
that are very interested in craft. One of the notes on poetry video
dismissed the whole media. It's an interesting thought, because I find
myself in a very ambigious (I could be academicly appropriate and say mix
of subversive and...) position with regards to video. It's a fact of life.
It's powerful and still a very young vibrant media. But, it is ripe for a
major marxist critique, vis a vis Marcuse's thoughts about one dimensional
man, video as the modern opiate of the masses, etc.
So, shall we say that the media intrigues me. I feel myself caught in a
similar trap as many postmodern artists in general: being inescapably
caught in something in dire need of critique. It's a sad sort of statement
that Derrida (pardon the loose paraphrase) was right about not being able
to escape the framework we're part of...
Tim
>maria, that's just it: i'm feeling at once tightass and justified in
>observing that the hall video---while a 'relief' in some ways from the
>adjacent work---is playing to a distinctively different crowd... in fact
>surfacing a key element at work in usop, which has to do (much) less with
>poetry than with (a peculiar kind of) spectacle... which doesn't
>necessarily contribute to a better poetic environs...
>
>interesting that another student in the class remarked, in general, that
>with a product to sell, some of the usop spots would make terrific
>commercials... and another observed that she stopped listening to the words
>after a while (thus an argument against video enhancing the audio)... just
>so's i don't give the impression that the folks in my class aren't
>thinking...
>
>but i think, at the very least, that usop is playing to a different
>audience than the one hereabouts, on poetics... in general, i mean, and i
>wonder if the difference between mself and the members of my class has less
>to do with my poetic background per se than with some generational
>differences in our response to image technologies... as much as i like to
>think of mself as hip, i mean, we're separated by approx. 20 years...
>
>but mebbe i'm being *too* generous!...
>
>best,
>
>joe
in space no one can hear you scream
in Dallas no one cares...
______________________________________________________________________________
Check out the Voices new poetry website at http://www.connect.net/twood/
the Word, Dallas' monthly arts guide: http://www/connect.net/twood/word.html
poetry & video poetry ---- graphic design & database development
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 15:47:12 -0600
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Not More Pound!
mike, sorry this is latecoming, my mail system is acting up... anyway,
congratulations on your new arrival!...
best,
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 15:59:42 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Sheila E. Murphy" <semurphy@AZLINK.COM>
Subject: new address for Sheila Murphy
Please be advised that I have a new e-mail address:
Sheila E. Murphy
semurphy@azlink.com
I'll be co-subscribed for a few weeks to ensure that all mail is properly
received. Just wanted to alert anyone who plans to contact me backchannel.
Thank you.
SEM
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 15:27:09 PST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: chris daniels <kunos@LANMINDS.COM>
Subject: FW: Sampling frenzy
--- On Sat, 6 Apr 1996 03:43:07 -0800 Mark Terwilliger
<markt@hopf.dnai.com> wrote:
>Chris
>
>from a techno-legal site:
>
>>For those worried about the death of copyright, or at least its reported
>>ill-health, a copyright infringement case last week held that the use by
>>recording artist Hammer of the repeated phrase "uh- oh" in his song
>>"Here Comes the Hammer" could constitute copyright infringement. The court
>>in Santrayll v. Burrell concluded that a one-measure "hook," consisting of
>>the word "uh-oh" repeated four times to a distinctive rhythm, contained
>>sufficient originality to be protectible by the copyright laws.
>
>
>How now, cash cow?
>
>cheers
>mark
>
-------------------------------------
christopher daniels <kunos@lanminds.com> 4.6.96 3:27:10 pm
q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they
said anything goes?"
--- charles wuorinen
a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow."
--- george clinton
snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa
voice: 510.524.5972
http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing)
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 18:47:27 CST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Baratier <dave.baratier@MOSBY.COM>
Subject: contrasimilacrum
Been off line for a bit, so ...
As far as reading a poem or poet due to a book of criticism
That's nice. Albiet rare. It's been my experience
that recent criticism includes such a sparsity of quotes,
such a poverty of experience to rely upon, only the barest minimum
necessary to validate the particular critical lens.
That has become the net value of poetry for most critics.
Take McGann's Black Rider for example please.
See what perspective one arrives at of Laura Riding Jackson's work
by reading the pieces quoted. Then keep in mind the fact that at the
time of Black Rider's release, Persea hadn't re-released the collected
poems , Chelsea had sold out of their LRJ issue, essentially nothing
was availiable (Unless you count searching through the individual
pages of the out of print collected from the seventies, the
*unbinding* one).
I find a few mentions of a text hardly enough to pick it up, rather
it's comparisons, mentions of the subject material, and the passion of
another reader that lend my eye to any book's pages.
Unfortunately the binary dicotomy of much of the criticism hinges on
one strand:
You either create the work or insult it.
David Baratier
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 18:43:19 MST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Louis Cabri <ldmcabri@ACS.UCALGARY.CA>
Subject: for p. quartermain
In-Reply-To: <v01520d01ad8af104b209@[166.84.199.56]>; from "Jordan Davis" at
Apr 5, 96 3:07 pm
I'm interested in what history there may be to the term
"disjunctive." Is there anyone who can help me in my
Raymond Williamsesque quest? Is Peter Quartermain
the first to use it in the sense of (his book title) Disjunctive
Poetics: From Gertrude Stein and Louis Zukofsky to Susan Howe? It
seems evident that he uses the term in order to describe a
diachronic axis of formally innovative change, and in order to distinguish
what he is doing from someone else wanting to constitute a
tradition, and he does this as one who is interested in how
social (especially linguistic) histories saturate said formal
innovation in specific, discontinuous ways. I'm searching for other
literary critics and poets, rather than, say, philosophers
(e.g. Foucault, Deleuze). (And Barthes's "writerly" seems very
different.) The broader question for me is in how some terms, for
instance "the disjunctive," come to unreflexively patrol the
limits of critical discourse (its rationality), reproducing,
besides the carrot of new understanding -- for instance, of
literary & social diachrony when not tied to tradition --
something less spectacular and more specular: a normative reader reproduceable
in/for the academy. (Of course I'm definitely not saying this happens
in Peter Quartermain's book, which, for those who don't know it,
is fabulously inspiring.)
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 23:22:42 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jena Osman <josman@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Re: poetry video...
In-Reply-To: <v01520d10ad8c6ca5eb9d@[199.1.91.54]> from "Tim Wood" at Apr 6,
96 01:58:45 pm
Tim Wood wrote:
>
> I'm not interested in poetry documentary. Documentary is nice. And I
> think it would help a lot of the so-called performance poets out there to
> videotape themselves as a form of self critique/directing. But, I'm more
> interested in work in which the visual is used artistically, as well as the
> words. In the case of USoP, much of the visuals are of the poets
> performing, but there's some very intense post-production applied to shove
> the work out of the documentary realm.
Coincidentally, there was a conference on poetry and video at
SUNY-Buffalo this past Friday, organized by Mac Hammond and Tony Conrad
(with a lot of help from Kristin Prevallet, I believe). The conference
did a good job of presenting "poetry documentary," as well as the more
"artistic" efforts asked for above. Viewings included:
--Chris Funkhouser demonstrating the poetry CD Rom he constructed which,
from the little I saw, is a really amazing project (although somewhat
inaccessible--you need an IBM CDRom machine) You can point and click on
the names of a number of poets; for example, click on the name Ben
Friedlander and you will see a handwritten manuscript of one of his
poems. The next screen is a typed copy of the same poem with
edits--meanwhile the sound behind this image is of Ben typing the poem on
his manual typewriter (complete with carriage returns and cursing under
the breath at mistakes). Each screen that follows leads to the next draft,
until finally you hear Ben's voice reading the poem out loud. This format
seems to allow for the idea of poetry as organic process (continually
changing, never finished) in a way that video really can't.
--a compilation of local poetry videos by Mike Basinski, Alicia Cohen,
Mac Hammond, Jody Lafond, Kristin Prevallet, and others.
--excerpts from USOP (which I found quite enjoyable, but I thought it was
strange to have music constantly behind the images and words--the
sections I saw gave little room for silence).
--Fanny Howe's _What Nobody Saw_: this video was definitely the highlight
for me. I think it comes closest to what Tim Wood may be looking for.
The images worked with the words in a truly evocative way so that they
were in fact the _language_ of the poem (as opposed to an illustration of
it).
--excerpts from the 19th and 20th San Francisco Poetry Film Festival
(including work by Robin Marlowe, Levni, Patricia Smith, and John Knect)
--videos from the New England Poetry Video Festival (Nina Hasin, Kurt
Heintz and Patricia Smith)
--clips from the _Word Up_ Collection by Jill Battson--more in the
"poetry documentary" vein for Canada's equivalent of MTV.
Jena Osman
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 22:32:17 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Thomas Bell <tbjn@WELL.COM>
Subject: Re: poetry video...
In-Reply-To: <199604070422.XAA04654@orichalc.acsu.buffalo.edu>
Being currently obsessed with word order mangling I'm led to
ask if poetry video differs from video poetry or vidic poems or
poetic videos or 24 straight hours of CBS with it's hypnotic
rhythms - stop! this was a serious enquiry.
I have a memory from my days of learning to be a spy many years
ago, too many, of seeing a clip of Yevtushenko reading to thousands
of Bratskii workers to tumultuous acclaim. Might this still exist?
Would it qualify as MTV? Or TNN (The Nashville Network), a goldmine -
or spanglemine - of poetry videos?
tom
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 22:36:07 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Thomas Bell <tbjn@WELL.COM>
Subject: contemporary Russian avant-garde
In-Reply-To: <199604070422.XAA04654@orichalc.acsu.buffalo.edu>
i would appreciate leads on contemporary Russian avant-garde
(I am aware of the pitfalls noted here of this name) poetry and
poets - here or there, here or backchannel.
tom
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 04:29:38 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Walter K. Lew" <WalterLew@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Poetic Briefs
I would like a copy of Poetic Briefs 20. Thanks.
Walter K. Lew
8 Old Colony Rd.
Old Saybrook, CT 06475
(860) 388-4601 (phone & fax)
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Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 08:32:53 EDT
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From: Albert Cook <CO401000@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: for p. quartermain
In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 6 Apr 1996 18:43:19 MST from
<ldmcabri@ACS.UCALGARY.CA>
On disjunction, see William Sylvester, "The Existence of a Disjunctive Principl
e in Poetry: A Preliminary Essay," COLLEGE ENGLISH, January, 1967, 265-272.
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Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 06:15:55 -0700
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From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: contemporary Russian avant-garde
A good place to begin would be THIRD WAVE: The New Russian Poetry,
edited by Kent Johnson and Stephen Ashby with an afterword by Mikhail
Epstein (paperback from U. Michigan Press). It's eclectic and pretty
accurate to the scene (i.e., it doesn't have all the axes to grind that
equivalent US anthologies always seem to have -- maybe because Johnson
& Ashby are outsiders to the scene).
Thanks to Lyn Hejinian, John High and others, a fair amount of current
generation Russian work is making its way slowly into English. Five
Fingers Review in SF has published a lot in several issues. Books also
abound. The major names are:
Alexei Parshchikov (a book is out from Avec)--he was a very successful
journalist as well as a poet under the old regime, but hasn't made the
transition to the new one well. After a stint at Stanford, he returned
to Russia and was (last I heard) pretty much living on the streets of
Moscow
Ilya Kutik (Kit Robinson's luminescent translation of his long ode just
came out from Alef(?) press) -- he is living in Evanston, IL these
days. Kutik was the young phenom of the scene at one point, now in his
mid 30s
Arkadii Dragomoshchenko (Sun & Moon has published one book, trans. by
Lyn Hejinian, and I believe another is due)--the major St. Petersburg
poet (most of the others in this list come out of Moscow as a literary
"scene")
Nina Iskrenko (she just died this past year -- I think John High must
be working on a book of her work since they close and even published
together -- one of those odd 2-in-one books where each poet has half of
the book which flips upside down in the middle, pretty common in
Russia)
Dmitri Prigov (a performance poet as much as anything else, sort of a
Rasputin mixed with Bob Holman, out of Moscow)
Nadezhda Kondakova (somewhat older than these other writers -- she was
instrumental in many of them getting into print once glasnost started
to take place)--she's been a major figure in Russia for 25 years, the
first one on this list to have been accepted by the Writers Union
Ivan Zhdanov (terrific oral poet from Siberia, but with a lifestyle
that is the Russian equivalent of Gregory Corso, just shy of being a
street person -- lives in Moscow -- wasn't Clark Coolidge doing some
translations?? I never saw them.)
Yuri Arabov (a film-maker as much as a poet)
Viktor Krivulin (another poet from St. Pete -- he started the first
samizdat journal in the 1970s devoted to poetic theory).
I think Kit Robinson is lurking on the list these days (Hi, Kit -- I'll
be in SF at the end of the month) and could add lots more detail to
this. Is Jean Day on the list? If so, she could do likewise.
Ron Silliman
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Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 11:24:06 -0400
Reply-To: Robert Drake <au462@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Robert Drake <au462@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: contemporary Russian avant-garde
> i would appreciate leads on contemporary Russian avant-garde
>(I am aware of the pitfalls noted here of this name) poetry and
>poets - here or there, here or backchannel.
pulling scatterd frm the shelf:
collections:
Johnson & Ashby eds.: _Third Wave: The New Russian Poetry_ U. Mich.
_Five Fingers Review_ #8/9 1990
Gerald Smith ed: _Contemporary Russian Poetry_ Indiana U. 1993
individual poets:
Arkadii Dragomoschenko: _Xenia_ (1994) & _Description_ (1990), Sun & Moon
Alexi Parshcheikov: _Blue Vitrol_, Avec
Rea Nikonova & Serge Segay: _Flacid_ Luna Bisonte 1990; _Made in Zaumland_
& _Of Tonesharl'_ xexoixial endarchy; and an interview in _TapRoot
Reviews_ #5...
related:
Charles Doria ed _Russian Samizdat Art_, Willis Lockler & Owens
several books by Gerald Janecek (fr historical perspective, particularly
on visual lit & zaum)
--lbd
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Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 11:34:33 -0400
Reply-To: Robert Drake <au462@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Robert Drake <au462@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: contemporary Russian avant-garde
&*&*&!!!
have a postcard here frm ed foster, announcing: "PROSPECT: 2nd
festival of russian & american poetry & poets"... may 23-26,
stevens institute of tech, hoboken nj, cheap.
postcard lists participants:
Arkadii Dragomoshchenko, Vadim Mesyats, Maya Nikulina, Lev
Rubinshtein, Elena Shvarts, Ivan Zhdanov, Bruce Andrews, John
High, Eileen Myles, Leslie Scalapino, Aaron Shurin & John
Yau...
telephone 201-216-5397; email efoster@vaxc.stevens-tech.edu.
was this already announce here & i missed it? hope somebody
sends a report...
lbd
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Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 13:41:24 -0400
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From: Mark W Scroggins <mscroggi@ACC.FAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: contrasimilacrum
In-Reply-To: <9603068288.AA828841180@smtp-gw.mosby.com>
David:
are you sure about Persea's Collected Riding? The cover on the paperback
I see in stores now is identical to the one they've been selling for
years and years--has it even ever gone out of print? (I bought a friend
a copy about a year before Black Riders came out, and the same edition's
still available)
Mark Scroggins
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Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 13:32:09 -0500
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From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Poetry video
thanx to bob holman for his generous, generous remarks re controversy over
usop... and to mikl and maria and tim and others for subsequent
ruminations... again i find mself asking questions upon questions, w/o any
hard-and-fast answers... but with as usual a few surmises...
i wasn't certain i followed bob about the eigner video, which seemed to me
the least mtv-based... but in any case, yes---i really do have high regard
for eigner's poetry, but i also loved "i'm stuck in a poem," baraka's "if
the flag catches fire," the "it's about you, girl" spot---have to watch it
all again to know who in hell is even doing some of this work, some of
which is not and some of which is quite fabulous in my view... i still have
my concerns about degrees of commodification and such, but here i'll take a
different tack...
the remarks about poetics as a white patriarchal entity are accurate
enough, sadly, though i sense no conspiracy around here... rather, those of
us who are white/male (mself included) as usual feeling freer to speak out
(aka post) due no doubt to the cultural realities shaping these our more
public spaces... so mea culpa, and forgive me if i haven't said it more
clearly till now: i for one welcome any and all talk of multicultural
poetics, slams, etc... in fact i'd hoped that my comments about usop would
help instigate what i see as necessary discussion of these other poetry
communities and practices and people---*whatever* my thinking is regarding
same...
for example, mself being a kind of observer at all slams i've been to here
in chicago, the guy who's biting his potentially sarcastic tongue at times,
though hardly tongue-tied... but trying (believe me!) to get into the
spirit of things... again, i'll make no excuses for entering into said fora
or exchanges with critical apparatus intact, which in my view (for me)
means with poetic apparatus intact (just to gloss quickly the poet-critic
couple, which has been a problem for me for some years now given that i
have a book of *criticism*---or is it?---written in lines coming out on
suny press some year soon)...
there's another element here needs to be addressed upfront methinks, and
not with my customary antiacademic academic sentiment, but it has to do
with academe... and maria hits at it when she discusses her "exasperation
with ... more advanced colleagues who don't 'get' that the study and
practice of literature can involve joy and spontaneity"... i hear this loud
and clear, and correlative to this is the general suspicion in
academic-leftist quarters (this includes most of my academic colleagues on
poetics, i think, and includes me too) regarding the presumed complicity of
cultural production with (unsavory) marketplace motives... yeah, talking
about the more materialist-marxist takes on things poetic, and the extent
to which these complicate the "joy and spontaneity" to which maria
refers...
i wouldn't be *here*---and i wouldn't write poetry or essays or anything
over *there*---if i weren't indulging mself in the 'joy and spontaneity'
of such doings, if i weren't willing to (as i see it) hazard some sentiment
that risked its own commodification, not to say objectification... it
really does get to me, the extent to which i seem at times to be caught
twixt a scylla and charybdis of critical skepticism and poetic
engagement... or mebbe it's poetic skepticism and critical engagement?...
no matter, really... if i'm complaining at all about usop, methinks my
complaint is likely to be heard outside of academe as somehow elitist and
restrictive... mea culpa... but if i'm advocating that usop has something
valuable to say to things and practices poetic inside academe (as i am, or
i wouldn't have used segments of same in my class---and oh god there i went
violating the fbi warning etc), why then this is likely to be heard inside
same (by my colleagues, not my students) as somehow anti-intellectual...
mea culpa...
on this list, on the other hand---a variable constituency that's large
enough, thankfully, to be difficult to get *entirely* a hold of
demographically---there's enough outside-of-academe presence so that my
usop-remarks enjoy that sort of you're-being-an-elitist scrutiny... which
i'm thankful for, in fact, given that, as an academic who scribbles poetry,
it's all too easy for me to get you're-being-an-anti-intellectual
scrutiny... also, since there are, thankfully, a number of folks around
these parts who're neither academic nor likely to think me an elitist (due
perhaps to our mutual stake in specific writing traditions) there's an
additional presence present... and a number of folks who're not academic
who probably *would* see as a bit of a prig... and there is of course this
matter of the whitemaleness of this list (or of most of the conversants?),
and of how to find ways to exchange ascii with one another that are
conducive to other ways of exchanging ascii with one another... and btw,
it's not lost on me that my resistance to slams or usop or ? may in fact
be, in ways i haven't unpacked for mself, a function of my whitemaleness...
ergo what i'm trying, convolutedly, to say is that i can't but believe it's
in the best interests of poetry and criticism and all things in between and
beside that perhaps THE widest distribution poetry event of recent
years---the most popular, in sheer numbers of people reached---is discussed
around here and not simply dismissed... b/c like it or no, this media
environs of ours is not going to dissipate... and holding onto a conception
of poetry that's inextricably linked to print-writing practices alone is
sure to spell a local sort of d-e-m-i-s-e...
best to all//
joe
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Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 15:11:02 -0400
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: contrasimilacrum
Dear Mark S--
I think Dave's right about PERSEA's collected riding. It was out for
a couple of years (like the collected O'Hara) and came back in original
form (well, in the 1980 version)....
An interesting oddity that I've found is that almost everyone I know
who has the 1980 COLLECTED says it falls apart after the first reading...
(the binding, not the poems--unless in a "positive" sense)...
Allegedly the new version doesn't do this. Now if only a store in Albany,
well, that's another....
Dear Dave B--
Well, yes, I do think the article/chapter you mentioned on Riding
is not very helpful. Unless one really thinks the LANGUAGE POETS are
the TANK we must hop onto to ride into the academy or something....
But, at the same time, I know at least one person who got turned into
(onto I mean) her work through that article....And I do believe that
POPULARIZERS are very important. It's very easy for many to deride,
for instance, Perloff's Book on O'HAra---but it IS the first, and when
I was 20 and just getting into poetry it was VERY profound.....
And, there's just hardly ANYTHING that really engages Riding's poetry
very much out there.
At least McGann deals with poems that are more Riding and less Stein...
in contradistinction to the Joris/Rothenberg anthology who seemed to
try to make Riding into another Stein rather than recognize her own
terms as as radical as Stein (see RObert Hale's review in ST. MArk's
Newlsletter for an elaboration of some of these points.....)
----chris s.
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Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 15:31:49 -0400
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From: Andrew D Epstein <ade3@COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: Reading at Columbia
In-Reply-To: <01I39IX8P3DU94DUCX@cnsvax.albany.edu>
I wanted to announce another poetry reading at Columbia:
The F. W. Dupee Reading Series Presents:
DAVID LEHMAN AND CHARLES NORTH
Introduced by Kenneth Koch
Wednesday, April 10
8 PM
Maison Francaise
Columbia University -- 116th and Broadway
New York
Admission is free
Wine and Cheese reception following the reading
David Lehman is the author of several books of poetry, most recently
_Valentine Place_ (1996), and several books of criticism, most recently
_The Big Question_ (1995). He is the series editor for the annual series
_The Best American Poetry_, and is currently teaching a graduate seminar
at Columbia University.
Charles North is the author of numerous books of poetry, including _Leap
Year: Poems 1968-1978_ (1978) and _The Year of the Olive Oil_ (1989).
With James Schuyler, hed edited _Broadway: A Poets and Painters Anthology
(1979) and its sequel, _Broadway 2_ (1989).
Hope to see you there!
Andrew Epstein
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Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 18:44:26 -0400
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From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: my script for a poetry video...
tosh --the idea for a poetry of cinema and cinema of poetry anthology is
great. jump on it --and we've read abt it here so when someone else beats
you to it we'll know it was your idea...(too) --maria d
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Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 19:35:22 -0400
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From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Poetry video
always good to hear your long musings joe...md
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Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 20:18:02 -0700
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From: tosh berman <tosh@LOOP.COM>
Subject: Re: my script for a poetry video...
>tosh --the idea for a poetry of cinema and cinema of poetry anthology is
>great. jump on it --and we've read abt it here so when someone else beats
>you to it we'll know it was your idea...(too) --maria d
Dear Maria:
Your much too kind! Maybe this can be a Jerry and Pierre type of project?
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Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 22:26:21 -0500
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From: Eryque Gleason <eryque@ACMENET.NET>
Subject: Re: poetry video...
maria, i spose i can understand some balking at bruce, maybe some
indecision about antin, but stein? what is she if she doesn't fit into the
categories of poet or playwrite? gentile? (gasp) science fiction?
eryque
At 3:30 PM 4/5/96 -0500, Maria Damon wrote:
>eryque --re comedy/poetry; i take lenny bruce very seriously as a poet, but
>when i offered to write an entry for him for the encylcopedia of jewish poets
>and playwrights, they said naaahh; more puzzling ws they also sed naaah to
>gertrude stein and david antin. i'd written on bruce and antin in Cultural
>Studies back in 1990 or 1991, so i guess ive internalized that continuum.--md
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Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 22:26:27 -0500
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From: Eryque Gleason <eryque@ACMENET.NET>
Subject: happy national poetry month
y'know, it took a phone call to my father (one of SEVERAL people that said
i was stupid for deciding to change from a tech field of study to english)
before i knew it was poetry month.
for women's history month and black history month the libraries and
bookstores put posterboard cutouts of important women and black people
(respective/fully), can we get them to put up cardboard cutouts of
important poems?
happy easter!
eryque
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Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 00:24:20 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From: Bob Holman <Nuyopoman@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 4 Apr 1996 to 5 Apr 1996
Joe, your comment re: some poems work better for videos gives pause. It
raises the what is a poem : which I believe is totally an issue of intent.
I think some poems in USOP work better than others, some parts of some
videod poems work while others don t, etc. - film/videotape being a new
medium, lots of places to make wrong steps especially when the goal is
first of all to make it to broadcast --- simultaneous with utopian to make
poem collaboratively w/poet and film crew and refusal to accept current
standards as standard. On the basest level, we were able to get some of the
seven deadly words on TV, we were able to have gay love on TV, etc.-- and, we
kept the poetry in our title and at worst referred consistently to this
beloved literary form.
I d be interested in which poems you think _did_ work, and why. Hopefully, we
are developing a way to read a poem on TV, which is not what MTV has in mind.
USOP is not an ad for the poem, but the poems themselves, which can, as you
noted, utilize language of advertising while adding, or subverting, same.....
Charles, your point on the indy as aesthetic is well taken; please put me in
touch with Video Art Network/Nancy Solomon. I spent six ears
producing/directing Poetry Spots for WNYC-TV, the City-owned public TV
station here in NY, and loved it. Walter Lew showed his video (made with
director Lewis Klahr) at his Poetry City reading last week -- still one of my
favorites My all-time fave is The Great American Roller Coaster Poem, made
with Cathy Bowman and a gang of deaf poets from Lexington High and their
hearing peers from across the City -- Teachers and Writers put it together.
Of course, the low-budge approach gives more control, fewer tech
possibilities, and no chance whatsoever of airing on national TV. The excuse
PBS generally uses is the production values aren t up to their standards,
and this rationale has been used to keep most of the ITVS (Independent
Television Service) shows off the air. We were very conscious of that as we
tried to get the risky content/language on air in USOP. Unlike the Moyers
show (which I liked, although I think it works better aural only -- the
audience reaction shots sapped energy), PBS refused to schedule USOP on a
national feed, making it very difficult to build a national presence for the
series. We plan to make more -- let me know what something you re left
wanting. All ideas, poems welcome. But I don t think a national TV broadcast
is a priori the Readers-Digesting of po. In USOP poets were engaged as
possible in the creation of their pieces; the whole project was poet-driven.
John S Hall, in Percy Dovetonsils drag, with a celli backup, with an
intermission and return with a martini all in a 50 second piece, I love it
that this one-off is seen as a piece about poetry. Hall is probably a hero
to many of your students, Joe, an should be known to all, having seven albums
out with his former band, King Missile and the first #1 College Radio Hit
Ever of a spoken word piece, his Detachable Penis. Like the Sex Pistols
for us, he s tweaking every nose (and nipple) he can find in My Lover. His
Scorsese is a tour de force off the wall deconstruct of Taxi Driver /hero
worship/poetry itself. He bumbles across the stage like Dylan Thomas on
ecstasy and ludes. He bashes literature, deadpans, and leaves audiences
rolling. I don t know if this piece makes it as poem/poetry video, but his
appearance in USOP gives a rolling howl to whatever GenX stage we re in now.
Hall s talking it.
Which is pleasure many take -- Sue Wallis s mom wanted me to know she loved
the purty poem of Sue and Rod, but did it _have_ to follow Allen Ginsberg in
his underwear? Even when she fast forwards you can see.
This is exposing different poetries to different audiences. As you come upon
Hall, as students come upon Eigner, Creeley. As rap is situated in this
context and square-dance calling. Who draws the lines? Drawing this kind of
interest, eliciting this kind of discussion, how does USOP not contribute to
the poetic environs ?
As for inability to read the image technologies, or whether you re
perhaps too generous about, hey -- why not check text with vidpo and see
what s up. Like all poetry, the poems on USOP want to be read more than once.
The amount of time and effort spent on each frame -- syllables, and phonemes!
it was five years in the making.
Next?
Bob Holman
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 01:18:21 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: Re: happy national poetry month
At 10:26 PM 4/7/96, Eryque Gleason wrote:
>y'know, it took a phone call to my father (one of SEVERAL people that said
>i was stupid for deciding to change from a tech field of study to english)
>before i knew it was poetry month.
Dear Eryque, hi, this is Kevin Killian. Here in San Francisco every month
is National Poetry Month. Dodie got an invitation in this deluxe 60 pound
engraved stationery, like a wedding invitation, from "Robert Hss, United
States Poet Laureate" to go to this reception honoring San Francisco's most
important poets . . . Francisco X. Alarcon, Marilyn Chin, Thom Gunn, Brenda
Hillman (Mrs. Robert Hass), June Jordan, Czeslaw Milosz, Michael Palmer,
Adrienne Rich and Gary Snyder! And I'm going too! Because the invitation
said, bring three other guests. It's tonight!
Eryque, doesn't your father live around here? Maybe he's going too! But
don't ask Tom Clark. Asked about Robert Hass, he just growls, "Poet
Laureate Robert Hass-author of two slim volumes of poetry?" Anyhow, I
can't wait until *I'm* poet laureate of the United States and can ask
people to come to meet other people at the Hayes Street Grill-a great
restaurant here in San Francisco. More later on National Poetry Month here
in the cool gray city of love.
K. Killian 1996
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Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 02:40:57 -0700
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Patchen and Cage
This was posted yesterday on the "silence" listserv:
Those interested in Patchen and/or the link between
Patchen and Cage may like to see the Kenneth Patchen home page
at :
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/marcus_williamson/patchbib.htm
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 03:09:44 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: National Poultry Month
Kevin, et al,
" Anyhow, I can't wait until *I'm* poet laureate of the United States
and can ask people to come to meet other people at the Hayes Street
Grill-a great restaurant here in San Francisco. More later on National
Poetry Month here in the cool gray city of love."
My sense of Bob Hass' stint as Laureate is that he has been actively
using the occasion to get himself in front of unlikely audiences (e.g.,
business groups) to talk about the need for arts funding, has used the
Library of Congress to link in with some other events/causes (e.g., the
broad series of readings for the environment that went on awhile back)
and has invited the likes of Lyn Hejinian and Carl Rakosi to read at
the Library of Congress. All in all, a pretty fair usage of what is
ultimately a silly title.
Ron Silliman
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 07:03:18 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Pierre Joris <joris@CSC.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: my script for a poetry video...
In-Reply-To: <v01520d01ad8dc5c73c5a@[204.179.169.107]>
On Sun, 7 Apr 1996, tosh berman wrote:
> >tosh --the idea for a poetry of cinema and cinema of poetry anthology is
> >great. jump on it --and we've read abt it here so when someone else beats
> >you to it we'll know it was your idea...(too) --maria d
>
>
> Dear Maria:
>
> Your much too kind! Maybe this can be a Jerry and Pierre type of project?
>
Dear Tosh:
You too are much too kind! I think Jerry & I are going to take a serious
holiday from anthologyzing -- maybe you shld take Maria's advice & do
that book! -- Pierre
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 18:46:00 +0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Schuchat <schuchat@ARC.ARC.ORG.TW>
Subject: Re: National Poultry Month
In-Reply-To: <199604081009.DAA21822@dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com>
Ron (and others),
while what you say about Robert Hass (Haas?) stint as Laureate sounds
very reasonable and accurate, we've been having these Laureates, and
before that Consultants in Poetry at the LOC, and all of them (even
William Jay Smith, and he took the job after he failed to be reelected to
Congress) could probably have their tenure described in similar terms.
But can you think of any of the incumbents of either of these positions
that had any lasting impact? on anything? I mean, other than Williams
being denied the position (for what, the last line of CHORALE: THE PINK
CHURCH?), by virtue of their holding the position?
I grew up in DC and believe me, Mike Lally had more impact than any of
the Consultants during the ten or so years he was in DC -- and I strongly
suspect he got more ink in the Washington Post over those years than they
did. He brought more poetry to the DC area, encouraged more poets, drew
together more disparate scenes (though I think he, too, was not very
successful in bridging the racial divides of DC) than any of them.
Maybe when Bob Holman is Laureate...
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 08:38:30 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Henry Gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: russian avant-garde poets
Elena Shvarts is a terrific St. Petersburg poet, though maybe not
avant-gardie enough for this list. Bloodaxe Bks has a bk of hers in
english called "Paradise". She's been published around in journals,
the forthcoming _alea_ has some good poems of hers coming soon.
- Henry Gould
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:17:05 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Mark Wallace <mdw@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU>
Subject: conspicuous repetition and the multiplicity of forms (fwd)
Annie Finch asked that I forward this message to the list.
mark wallace
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 04 Apr 1996 09:37:33 -0500 (EST)
From:FINCHAR@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu
To: mdw@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu
Subject: conspicuous repetition and the multiplicity of forms
Dear Mark Wallace.
My colleague Keith Tuma forwarded me your message to the poetics list, which I
found of graet interest, patticularly since it seems to be part of a discussion
I would have been enjoying had I not foresworn all lists for the time being in
favor of my parenting responsibilities.
At any rate, I wanted to respond toyour comment and also to solicit some of
your perspectives on form.
I was rather embarrassed that you (naturally) took seriously my intentional
simplification of my initial position on formalism, which I had aimed at the
AWP audience in an effort not to alienate them from nontransparent langauge at
the outset. But of course I shoulod have expected that; that is how I
positioned the article.
I was more intrigued by your comment about the overlooked forms. In fact, when
I was editing AFFC, I searched for" avant garde" and experimental poems that were
formal by my definition (structured byt he conspicuous repetition of any
language element). Iw as teaching at New College in SF at the time, and I
spoke with Lyn Hejinian and some others about it. All I could some up with was
the poems by Leslie Simon, some of my favorites in the book. The others would
fall through the cracks because of the "conspicuous" part of the definition; as
I mentioned int he AWP piece but didn't discuss thoroughly enough, as I nsee
now, Jackson Maclow type forms aren't conspicuous enough to work in the
conte3xt of formalism as I define it.
I'd like you to direct me to any work you know that is formal by my definition,
and that I am overlooking. THis is particularly important to me now since I am
now coediting another book based on the same defiinition of form, which would
give me a chance to remedy the oversights of the previous anthology.
Thanks in advance for any information you can pass on.
Sincerely,
Annie Finch
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:39:12 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Mark Wallace <mdw@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU>
Subject: Re: conspicuous repetition and the multiplicity of forms (fwd)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:38:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mark Wallace <mdw@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>
To: FINCHAR@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu
Subject: Re: conspicuous repetition and the multiplicity of forms
Dear Annie Finch:
Thanks for your query. Of course, I suppose the whole crux of the
matter has to do with how one sees the issue of "conspicuous repetition"
of forms--your own definition is still not quite clear to me. Are we
talking about repetition of forms only regarding certain kinds of end
words or rhyme schemes or meters, or are we speaking, more broadly, about
any type of repeated language element or self-generated repeating form?
Please excuse me that I don't have all the titles of the books I'm about
to mention--I don't have e-mail access at home, and so must use it in a
large computer room without books in front of me.
For instance, does Bernadette Mayer's The Sonnets meet the
requirements you're looking for--complete repetition of 14-line
structures without ordinary sonnet rhyme schemes? What about the visual
"dictionary" poems produced by Tina Darragh (which have appeared in
several publications), which all contain bits of a dictionary framed by
odd geometrical patterns? What about the repetition of line patterns in
the work of Susan Howe in a book like Articulations of Sound Forms in
Time, or the Letters to Mina Harker of Dodie Bellamy (with others), an
ongoing epistolary series? Or Juliana Spahr's poem in the most recent
Avec, in which the phrase "this is true" repeated over and over becomes a
satirical mantra on the notion of what our society understands as a true
story?
It's interesting to me that Jackson Mac Low becomes an example
for you of someone who does not conspicuously use formal repetition,
since he seems to me one of the most blatant formalists of the second
half of the twentieth century. See for instance Henry Taylor's essay on
Mac Low--Taylor is himself an intensely traditional formalist, yet he finds
Mac Low's work interesting precisely because of the rigor of Mac Low's
own thinking, in a very different tradition, about the use of formal,
repetitive elements.
I do apologize if I missed the point of the context in which you
were speaking--as a teacher, I certainly understand that difficult
material often has to be presented, at least at first, in a way that
people are prepared to understand. Of course, this does not really change
my criticism of AWP as a mechanicism supposedly designed for the
promotion of poetry inside an academic, creative writing program
context. The idea that twenty years after the first emergence of LANGUAGE
poetry,
it still has to be presented in a professional journal as something that
people have never heard of seems to me pretty distressing.
Since you've asked that I forward your own query to me to the
list, I hope you won't mind that I forward my response here to the list also.
I hope that we can continue this conversation.
Sincerely,
Mark Wallace
On Thu, 4 Apr 1996 FINCHAR@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu wrote:
>
> Dear Mark Wallace.
>
> My colleague Keith Tuma forwarded me your message to the poetics list, which I
> found of graet interest, patticularly since it seems to be part of a discussion
> I would have been enjoying had I not foresworn all lists for the time being in
> favor of my parenting responsibilities.
>
> At any rate, I wanted to respond toyour comment and also to solicit some of
> your perspectives on form.
>
> I was rather embarrassed that you (naturally) took seriously my intentional
> simplification of my initial position on formalism, which I had aimed at the
> AWP audience in an effort not to alienate them from nontransparent langauge at
> the outset. But of course I shoulod have expected that; that is how I
> positioned the article.
>
> I was more intrigued by your comment about the overlooked forms. In fact, when
> I was editing AFFC, I searched for" avant garde" and experimental poems that were
> formal by my definition (structured byt he conspicuous repetition of any
> language element). Iw as teaching at New College in SF at the time, and I
> spoke with Lyn Hejinian and some others about it. All I could some up with was
> the poems by Leslie Simon, some of my favorites in the book. The others would
> fall through the cracks because of the "conspicuous" part of the definition; as
> I mentioned int he AWP piece but didn't discuss thoroughly enough, as I nsee
> now, Jackson Maclow type forms aren't conspicuous enough to work in the
> conte3xt of formalism as I define it.
>
> I'd like you to direct me to any work you know that is formal by my definition,
> and that I am overlooking. THis is particularly important to me now since I am
> now coediting another book based on the same defiinition of form, which would
> give me a chance to remedy the oversights of the previous anthology.
>
> Thanks in advance for any information you can pass on.
> Sincerely,
> Annie Finch
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:56:23 -0400
Reply-To: Robert Drake <au462@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Robert Drake <au462@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: poetry video...
this just came in over a different list; my slip server is down so
i can't vouch for the content, but may be ov use to someone...
>...Other new additions include: The Zuzu's Petals Literary Resource
>Video Guide--Films inspired by The Arts at http://www.hway.net/
>zuzu/artfilm.htm ...
asever
lbd
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:26:08 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU>
Subject: poetry video...
bob, far as i'm concerned, the genres are all blurred, *anything* can be a
poem (we owe this much to duchamp)... once i'm told this is how something
is being offered to me, though, i kick into "ok let's see what this *is* as
a poem" mode... that is, there *are* categories, if blurred, and how we use
our categories is keyed into so many realities/histories... anyway, i'd be
lying if i didn't acknowledge my tendency to evaluate, to judge what i
see/experience, esp. art, and for that matter to try to understand the
basis for my judgment/taste... if not right away, then eventually---and i
expect as much from those who presume themselves poets, artists, engineers,
etc... as much as i'm for the celebratory, i see as well the need to do
more---not necessarily to entertain, say, but to upset mebbe... and i don't
mean this latter in aesthetic terms only...
so for me, it's not and never has been only about language... at the same
time, i'm looking for art to do a lot, quite a lot... and i think it's
necessary to ask for this, mebbe even to demand it in a general, non-pushy
sorta way, b/c there's so much crap 'out there' that we're busy being
bombarded with... it's almost in fact impossible to talk about "quality"
these days (look what the corporate folks have done to that poor word since
pirsig, and look what it was before pirsig, and look at what pirsig did
with it!)... ergo trying to find a way to discuss what works for me as
poetry is difficult, and what works for me as poetry is not necessarily
what works for me as comedy, and as somebody pointed out, the performance
of poetry in general complicates the poem... but i expect all poetry,
really, to exhibit a careful attention to language issues and tissues...
and even to say this is of course only a beginning...
there are so many differing aesthetics and values, but at the same time
methinks it's important to recognize that there are powerful normative
institutional forces at work in this culture, that these exert a tremendous
pressure on folks like you to construct a video in accordance with xyz
demands (as you indicate, the absence of profanity being one such demand,
one that you managed to overcome), and on anybody who's invested (ugh) in
making and offering in a public sense... which i take to be anybody who
makes and offers... but in more subtle terms, these forces work ultimately
to construct audiences... the same forces, in fact, which have relegated
poetry in so many ways to the sort of construction many (even academic)
folks think it is, hence don't really know how to approach same in a
contemporary sense having been taught that it *is* this one thing...
i can't suggest any peculiar how's here, though there are aesthetics i'd
argue for over and against others depending on one's motives... but i can
say that there probably is some value in general in challenging orthodox
beliefs...
and raising this question of an orthodoxy is to the point here... fact is,
many of my students these days, if not most, view the reagan era as a
benign golden age (this is partly a function of mine being a tech.
campus)... now given that i'm not particularly motivated mself by majority
beliefs, and that i hear at least once a semester that this selfsame
majority 'doesn't agree with me' (which is true in more ways than one), and
(not to be didactic, but---) given that the reagan years constitute in my
view the greatest political debacle of the past half-century---given all of
this, when i find my students initially taking to a guy like hall (and
believe me, i'm not out of touch with the pop music or tv or film scenes
etc) and i find mself saying 'this is too easy,' well then perhaps there
*is* a lack of critical reception taking place, perhaps hall has played
into the same old same old comedy-entertainment grid that i see all the
damned time on hbo or or or...
i know this is a bit hard, again, on hall, but what i'm trying to say here
is that you really can't talk about the formal qualities of this or that
w/o eventually considering context... esp. not where relative values are
concerned, where you're looking to understand whether understanding has
taken place, or whatever it is one is after artistically... and i hope to
hell i'm not suggesting a sort of artistic sanctity here, which couldn't be
further from my aim...
ok ok, i go on... so, as maria sez, sue me... seems to me this is tough
stuff to discuss, and again, critical to the moment... and i appreciate
again your openness, bob, to discussing this ex post facto stuff, esp. in
the wake of alla that work you put into usop, as if that weren't enough...
best,
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:55:56 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: Re: happy national poetry month
In-Reply-To: <v01520d01ad8e0b8f86e4@[205.134.228.29]> from "Kevin Killian" at
Apr 8, 96 01:18:21 am
> Anyhow, I
> can't wait until *I'm* poet laureate of the United States and can ask
> people to come to meet other people at the Hayes Street Grill-a great
> restaurant here in San Francisco. More later on National Poetry Month here
> in the cool gray city of love.
>
> K. Killian 1996
Me neither. Can I come?
Mike
mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 13:06:58 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Henry Gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: happy national poetry month
In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:55:56 -0400 from
<mboughn@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
On Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:55:56 -0400 Michael Boughn said:
>> can't wait until *I'm* poet laureate of the United States and can ask
>> people to come to meet other people at the Hayes Street Grill-a great
>> restaurant here in San Francisco. More later on National Poetry Month here
Well, as I understand it, Ted Berrigan is poet laureate for the time being.
He died on the 4th of July and is meeting people at the Gem Spa in Mannahatt.
- Henry Gould
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:26:27 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Douglas Messerli <djmess@SUNMOON.COM>
Subject: Re: contemporary Russian avant-garde
I presume you know of Sun & Moon Press's publications
of Arkadii Dragomoschenko's DESCRIPTION and XENIA.
Avec Press also has published Alexei Parshchikov's
BLUE VITRIOL. And the University of Iowa has published
John Glad's and Daniel Weissbort's TWENTIETH-CENTURY
RUSSIAN POETRY, which has some new Russian Poetry.
Ed Foster of Talisman has been very involved in contem-
porary Russian poetry.
I think going to a library would help. There has been a great
deal about contemporary Russian poetry in the last
few years.
Douglas Messerli
At 10:36 PM 4/6/96 -0800, you wrote:
> i would appreciate leads on contemporary Russian avant-garde
>(I am aware of the pitfalls noted here of this name) poetry and
>poets - here or there, here or backchannel.
>tom
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:56:32 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: tosh berman <tosh@LOOP.COM>
Subject: Re: Beyond Baroque Free event
TONIGHT: April 8 8:00 P.M., Monday
FROM A TO Z (ASHBERY TO ZUKOFSKY): A 19TH AND 20 TH c. Poetry Reading Circle
For anyone who enjoys reading poetry! Each participant should bring 15
copies of one or two poems written by a 19th or 20th c. poet who has
published at least one volume of poetry.
Biographical information on the selected poet would be useful (and may be
presented orally) but is not required. The poems will be read out loud and
discussed by the group, which will meet in Beyond Baroque on second Monday
of every month at 8:00 p.m.
This event is hosted by Shelley A. Berger.
Beyond Baroque is located at:
681 Venice Blvd.
phone no: 310-822-3006.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:19:56 CST6CDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Hank Lazer <hlazer@AS.UA.EDU>
Organization: The University of Alabama
Subject: special offer --
Poetics List:
Based on earlier discussions, especially on Taggart's essays on
Zukofsky, Oppen, and others, I asked the UA Press if they might offer
a sale to the Poetics group. What follows is a response that makes
these books more affordable.
Hank Lazer
SPECIAL OFFER!!!
The University of Alabama Press is pleased to offer the following
books to members of the Poetics Listserv at a special discount.
Please see ordering information at the end of the list.
1. Apocalypse and After: Modern Strategy and Postmodern Tactics in
Pound, Williams, and Zukofsky
Bruce Comens
Comens examines the development of Modernism into Postmodernism as it
occurs in the works of three major poets and attends closely to the
social and political dimensions of that development as embodied in
these writers' distinctive poetics. Modernism's struggle to develop
a new global strategy was to a great extent a response to the
catastrophe of World War I, while the Postmodern resort to
fragmentary tactics stems from the failure of Modernist strategy both
the avert World War II and to come to terms with the horror of the
atomic bomb.
"A significant contribution to the critical literature in Pound,
Williams and Zukofsky, as well as to the theory of Modernism and
Postmodernism in American poetry."--Charles Bernstein, State
University of New York-Buffalo.
Bruce Comens is Assistant Professor of English at Temple University.
224pp. 1995 $23.95 paper, special 40% discount price $14.37
2. Scars: American Poetry in the Face of Violence
Edited by Cynthia Dubin Edelberg
"A dazzling array of perspectives on domestic, racial, and military
violence."--Charles Altieri, University of California-Berkeley
POEMS BY: Diane Abu-Jaber, Jimmy Santiago Baca, John Balaban,
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Robert Creeley, Carlos Cumpian, Toi Derricotte, Rita Dove, Rachel
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Stern, Diane Wakoski, Rosmarie Waldrop, Michael Warr, Bruce Weigl,
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Cynthia Dubin Edelberg is Associate Professor and Director of
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224pp. 1995 $24.95, paper, special 40% discount price $14.97
3. A Reader's Guide to the Poetry of Richard Wilbur
Rodney Stenning Edgecombe
United States poet laureate Richard Wilbur (b. 1921) has been an
important figure in American literature since World War II. Yet in
spite of this formal recognition, commentary on Wilbur's poetic
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redress this relative neglect by providing a unique and comprehensive
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range of Wilbur's poetry from his first collection to his most recent
verse.
"This excellent reader's guide offers a learned and lucid view of
Wilbur's poetry, of its thematic unity and its formal diversity.
Those intending to consult the book piecemeal are likely to find
themselves reading further, admiring Edgecombe's sympathetic mastery
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Rodney Stenning Edgecombe is Professor of English at the University
of Cape Town.
192pp. 1995 $29.95 paper, special 40% discount price $17.97
4. The Metaphysics of Sound in Wallace Stevens
Anca Rosu
Wallace Stevens dedicated his poetry to challenging traditional
notions about reality, truth, knowledge, and the role of language as
a means of representation. Rosu demonstrates that Stevens's
experimentation with sound is not only essential to his poetics but
also profoundly linked to the pragmatist ideas that informed his way
of thinking about language. Her readings of Stevens's poems focus on
revealing the dynamic through which meaning emerges in language
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"While critics have always known that sound was important to Stevens,
no one before has explored so thoroughly how crucial sound is to
Stevens's poetics, even metaphysics. Rosu makes a much needed
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"Rosu's challenging book . . . is worth close reading."--CHOICE
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Anca Rosu teaches in the English Department at Rutgers University.
200pp. 1995 $39.95 cloth, special 40% discount price $23.97
5. The Tribe of John: Ashbery and Contemporary Poetry
Edited by Susan M. Schultz
This groundbreaking collection of essays focuses on the new
generation of postmodern poets who are clearly indebted to John
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for interpreting and understanding his poetic schievement.
CONTRIBUTORS INCLUDE: Charles Altieri, Charles Bernstein, George
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McCorkle, Stephen Paul Miller, Fred Moramarco, Jonathan Morse, Donald
Revell, Andrew Ross, and John Shoptaw
"An impressive book that makes an important contribution to the
understanding both of John Ashbery's work and of the cultural
contexts at work in the making of contemporary American
poetry."--Hank Lazer, The University of Alabama
Susan M. Schultz is Assistant Professor of English at the University
of Hawai'i-Manoa.
288pp. 1995 $28.95 paper, special 40% discount price $17.37
6. Songs of Degrees: Essays on Contemporary Poetry and Poetics
John Taggart
With an Introduction by Marjorie Perloff
A collection of 19 related essays on contemporary American poetry and
poetics, published as journal articles between 1975 and 1989, by poet
and theorist John Taggart. By focusing on the work of several major
and less well-known American experimental poets from the 1930s to the
present, Taggart not only traces the origins and evolution of this
experimental tendency in recent poetry, but also develops new
theoretical tools for reading and appreciating these innovative and
complex works.
"The most perceptive readings available of two major American poets,
George Oppen and Louis Zukofsky."--Hank Lazer, The University of
Alabama
John Taggart is Professor of English and Director of the
Interdisciplinary Arts Program, Shippensburg University.
Marjorie Perloff is Sadie Dernham Patek Professor of Humanities at
Stanford University.
272pp. 1994 $29.95 paper, special 40% discount price $17.97
SPECIAL POETICS LISTSERV ORDERFORM EXPIRES 31 MAY 1996
You MUST use this orderform to get the 40% discount
e-mail jknight@uapress.ua.edu FAX (205)348-9201 or
The University of Alabama Press, Box 870380, Tuscaloosa, Alabama
35487-0380
Quantity------Book titles-------------------------------------Price---------Total
___________________________________________________________
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Box 870380
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E-mail: mitchell@uapress.ua.edu
(205) 348-1560/ Fax (205) 348-9201
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 16:19:48 CST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Baratier <dave.baratier@MOSBY.COM>
Subject: Happy poetry month
Kevin,
The coolest thing Bob Haas talked about was his mission to change
various newspaper"s opinion of poetry through using "bully" tactics to
get papers to comit X amount of space for poetry each day. month
ecetera. Bob would call the paper and announce that a pulitzer prize
winner in literature, a [NAME PRESTIGEOUS PRIZE] in journalism, a
noble prize winner in science and so on would like to talk with the
paper about the importance of literature, specifically poetry, for the
masses. He showed with these folks at the NY Times to get them to
commit to one full page worth of space a month. Also his daily poetry
commentary has been syndicated for over 30 papers, which I haven't
seen yet but would be interested in. I think he said he was working on
getting 5 papers in major cities a year to commit as his goal. As for
here in Philly, with the Inquirer no such luck so far. He has three
books out, I prefer Praise, although the second section of Human
Wishes tells great stories in prose lyric. Be Well.
David Baratier
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 22:20:02 +0000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: cris cheek <cris@SLANG.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Poetry video & Performance
Hi all, and thanks to Joe and Bob and Maria and Jean and Julie and Tim and
Tosh for keeping this thread bobbling over the past couple of days.
I'm in somewhat of a rush - too much to go into provocative
depth - (sighs of relief all round). But wanted to lead into a Brit
perspective on this discussion. It's certainly not only in the US poetry
worlds and poetry communities that there are awkward crags, yeah sometimes
chasms, between 'performance' poets and the paging poets. Yes I know it's a
broad simplication - let's say between the written and the oral emphases.
Some of those scaleable impediments and bridgeable gaps are created by
simple non-contact and, arguably, too few mututally respectful attempts to
make that contact.
Parts of the mutual disinterest comes from (again unjustifiably
broadly stereotyped):
- a suspicion about pop against art or even culture versus art (I
remember Bruce Andrews telling me 'what we need (or "i want" - i can't
quote him verbatim and the difference is poignant) is more art and less
culture')
- a suspicion on the part of some poets here (I'm not going to name
names, that's stupid) - for example - for the politics of Rastafarianism
and thereby a residual dislike (some put it more strongly) of Reggae music
and thereby the impossibility of catching onto Bob Marley or Lee Perry.
This carried over into problems with Michael Smith and Linton Kwesi Johnson
and Jean 'Binta' Breeze - because of their rhythms if not for their
affiliations. Now there's a whole huge can of worms and the poetry is
tarnished right along. It's somehow symptomatic.
As someone who's always been hot and rangey to musics and will
listen to Gil Scott Heron, Tribe Called Quest, Dropping Science, AMM, Fanta
Damba, Bjork, Tricky, Scelsi, Goldie, The Hafler Trio, Tom Waits, Last
Exit, Asian Dub Foundation, Pierre Schaeffer, Zoviet France, Steve Lacy,
Captain Beefheart, Chalkdust, Tom Ze, Sun Ra, Cecil Taylor, post-Bitches
Brew Miles Davis, Mahler, Oumou Sangare and others who have forsworn
'names' - in a stereotypical evening when friends are round or not -
the rhythms (the 'feel') of the musics and how it's driven and contructed
and it's use of voice are syntaxes that correspond to processes and
practices of writing from syllable to syllable or word to word for poetry
(whether oral or written). The voice and its context and its shaping within
the human breath or metal machine breaths are where movement-based (body)
choreography and sound and language meet in an excitation of shared air.
Now my own work both in performance and on the page is in the
'difficult' room. It's just that way. Yet my own take is very much along
the 'I'll respect your shit if you respect my shit' lines. It seems to be
much too small a community of practicing poets (worldwide), in whatever
forms of practice, whose practice is oppositionally civic as Joe desires it
(and so do i), to start carving up little lines of the defensive drug (one
of the most pernicious of poetry, no of art, habits).
I liked very much what Charles Bernstein said about Ideolect some
time back and it seems pertinent to this discussion. Because, again
speaking personally, I want to exchange with the rap and dub and slam poets
in a positive forum. Of course, I want to turn them onto what I'm into and
up to. (Barrett Watten, Carla Harryman, Steve Benson, Allen Fisher,
Caroline Bergvall, Brian Catling, Aaron Williamson and others) But I've got
a lot to learn too and feel that (here's where you all shout - "space
cadet!" and plunge for delete) there are spaces of mutual respect and
solidarity that can be reached through listening to the hearing and looking
at the seeing of the differences between these broadly never the twain
shall meet forms of prioritisation. Those spaces or bases offer a potential
for strong rather than divided oppositional poetics.
I'm unlikely to get to see USOP in Britain. As far as the British
literary capitalist publishing cadre it's Dana Goia and CK WIlliams and
Derek Walcott and so on that they display any interest in from the broad
linguistic diaspora. Ashberry and Ginsberg represent two token fringe
figures who deal with the residual responsibilities of being seen to
present a range. But then the numbers of people (ok Bjork and Tricky aside
at the present) who listen to many of the musicians I mentioned above,
compared to the numbers for Michael Jackson and Whitney Houston, are also
small.
I don't know Bob, but I'm glad he's listening and working on
generating some of these discussions. Would that the range of discourse was
broader here sometimes.
The whole of this coming week Jean Breeze, Aaron Williamson and Tertia
Longmire, Fiona Templeton, Caroline Bergvall, Mary Lemley and myself will
get to work alongside each other at Dartington's 'Performance Writing'
Symposium - at the weekend we'll be joined by Heiner Goebbels, John
Cayley, Cherry Smyth, Tim Etchells, Alaric Sumner, Ronnie Monro, SuAndi,
Rod Mengham, Drew Milne and many others. It's just a start.
love and love
cris
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 17:29:09 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Eryque Gleason <eryque@ACMENET.NET>
Subject: Re: happy national poetry month
Dear Kevin, it's good to hear from you again.
>Here in San Francisco every month is National Poetry Month.
i don't mean to pick nits, but how can it be national every month only in
san francisco?
yep, my father lives in the san francisco suburbs. somehow i don't think
that he's gonna be at the reception though. i'm still trying to convince
him that most poets look more or less like "normal" people.
kevin, (and michael too) when you're poet laureate will you invite me to
the reception?
eryque (comin at'cha live from a grey city.)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 18:00:50 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: symmetry
Just received in the mail the latest AVEC book by Laura Moriarty.
Definitely one of the best books I've read in the last year...
Only about halfway through it. It is demanding, tropologically
subtle work, lyric, somewhat minimalistic (yet with more "meat"
than much minimalism--meat as meaning, as murder?). Also, a kind
of feminism is very central to it. Perhaps it may be linked to
Susan Howe's "archive" trip, but I actually prefer it to much Howe
because it is also "love poetry" (albiet love poetry that is ALSO
a critique of love poetry...but then that, for me, has always been
true of the best love poetry). There is much more to say about it,
it'd be interesting if anybody else has anything to say....
I wrote a lot in the margins, which I will not here post....
I just wanted to mention it.
Chris Stroffolino
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 18:05:00 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: new york city, a bag
I just wanted to announce that Jordan Davis and myself will be reading
this saturday at the EAR INN (a reading hosted by Lisa Jarnot) this
saturday (oops, repetition)......
2:30. For more infor, feel free to backchannel....
Chris Stroffolino
----------------------
"I had to say something that would strike him pretty weird
So I shouted 'I like [the unabomber] and his beard'"
zimmy....
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:06:44 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Mark Roberts <M.Roberts@ISU.USYD.EDU.AU>
Subject: AWOL: Aust. Multi Media at NSWWC (forwarded)
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 19:59:06 +1000
>To: awol@ozemail.com.au
>From: awol@ozemail.com.au (awol)
>Subject: AWOL: Aust. Multi Media at NSWWC
>
>The following information has been posted by AWOL on behalf of the
>NSW Writers' Centre. Please address all enquiries to the NSWWC
>
>
>*******************************************
>
>Martin Cooper, CEO of Australian Multimedia Enterprise Limited, to talk at
>the NSW Writers' Centre on the AME's role and functions, how writers may
>have some input to multimedia, on future directions in electronic
>publishing and how it may affect traditional publishing.
>
>Date: Thursday 11 April 1996 Time: 6pm
>
>A barrister and solicitor, Martin Cooper has conducted a specialist media
>and entertainment law practice representing broadcasting licencees, film,
>music and television industry personnel and production companies. He was
>the first solicitor employed by an Australian commercial television network
>and was a Director of Channel Ten in Sydney. He has been responsible for
>the production of many films, including "Gallipoli", and has published
>books, articles and papers on media and entertainment law issues.
>
>Chair: George Masterman QC (NSW Writers' Centre Management Committee)
>
>Panel: Rosie Cross (geekgirl), Lynne Spender (Australian Society of
>Authors), Julie Robb (Senior Legal Officer with the Arts Law Centre), Kate
>Riedl (General Manager, Australian National Playwrights' Centre) Lois
>Randall (Executive Officer, Australian Screen Directors' Association)
>
>Free admission RSVP ESSENTIAL PHONE (02) 555 9757 (Inquiries to Irina Dunn)
>
>The NSW Writers' Centre is in the grounds of Rozelle Hospital. To get
>there, enter the Hospital from Balmain Road opposite Cecily Street and
>follow the signs to the Centre.
>
>
>
>
>
>AWOL
>Australian Writing On Line
>awol@ozemail.com.au
>http://www.ozemail.com.au/~awol/
>PO Box 333 Concord NSW 2137 Australia
>Phone 61 2 7475667
>Fax 61 2 7472802
>
__________________________________
Mark Roberts
Student Systems Project Officer
Information Systems
University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia
M.Roberts@isu.usyd.edu.au
PH:(02)351 5066
FAX:(02)351 5081
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:07:30 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Mark Roberts <M.Roberts@ISU.USYD.EDU.AU>
Subject: AWOL: CALLS Literary dinner (forwarded)
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 20:02:47 +1000
>To: awol@ozemail.com.au
>From: awol@ozemail.com.au (awol)
>Subject: AWOL: CALLS Literary dinner
>
>The following information has been posted by AWOL on behalf of CALLS.
>
>***************************************
>
>
>LITERARY DINNER
>Marion Halligan
>
>The Centre for Australian Language and Literature Studies is holding a
>Literary Dinner with Marion Halligan to deliver the address and launch
>_Louisa Lawson: Collected Poems with Selected Critical Commentaries_
>edited by Leonie Rutherford and Megan Roughley with Nigel Spence. The
>dinner is on April 18th in the Treloar Room at Wright College at the
>University of New England, Armidale, New South Wales commencing with drinks
>at 6.30 for 7 p.m. The cost of the dinner,including wine, is $20 for
>members of CALLS and $25 for non-members. To book your places at the
>dinner email Cath Ellis on: cellis@metz.une.edu.au
>
>To order a copy of _Louisa Lawson: Collected Poems with Selected Critical
>Commentaries_ edited by Leonie Rutherford and Megan Roughley with Nigel
>Spence at $30 each (including postage and packing) send a cheque or money
>order made out to CALLS to:
>The Centre for Australian Language and Literature Studies
>Department of English and Communication Studies
>University of New England
>New South Wales 2351
>and include your name, address and a contact phone number.
>
>
>AWOL
>Australian Writing On Line
>awol@ozemail.com.au
>http://www.ozemail.com.au/~awol/
>PO Box 333 Concord NSW 2137 Australia
>Phone 61 2 7475667
>Fax 61 2 7472802
>
__________________________________
Mark Roberts
Student Systems Project Officer
Information Systems
University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia
M.Roberts@isu.usyd.edu.au
PH:(02)351 5066
FAX:(02)351 5081
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 12:01:25 GMT+1300
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Wystan Curnow <w.curnow@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 4 Apr 1996 to 5 Apr 1996
Comments: To: Nuyopoman@AOL.COM
Dear Bob,
Was it you at Michael Andre's Canal St. apt. and Arakawa and
Creeley I met many years past? Before a Creeley read at St.Marks I
think?
What I wanted to ask about USOP on behalf of those of us beyond
broadcast range, are there plans to make a video of it? I'm a King
Missile fan/ Larry Eigner fan.
Regards,
Wystan
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:22:51 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Mark Roberts <M.Roberts@ISU.USYD.EDU.AU>
Subject: AWOL: Melbourne readings April 9 (forwarded)
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 16:06:37 +1000
>To: awol@ozemail.com.au
>From: awol@ozemail.com.au (awol)
>Subject: AWOL: Melbourne reading April 9
>
>The following message has been posted by AWOL on behalf of Alphabet City
>Cafe Readings, Zound Poetry and Smith Street Readings.
>
>************************
>
>Alphabet City Cafe Readings Melbourne
>
>April 9 Grant Caldwell (fresh from his NSW tour), Robert Drummond, Kerry
>Scuffins, Lyn Boughton and musicians. Alphabet City Cafe - 98 High Street
>Northcott (opposite Valhalla cinema). Readings are organised by Shelton Lea
>and are held on the 2nd Tuesday of the month. For further details contact
>the cafe.
>
>
>************************
>
>Zound Poetry at La Mama
>
>April 9 8pm Presented by the Axle group. Features Unamunos Quorum, Carolyn
>Connors, Kelli Dipple, Peter Murphy, Javant Biarujia Biarujia and Peter
>Gleeson. Details ph pete spence (03) 9593 9033
>
>
>***********************
>
>Smith Street Readings
>
>Smith Street Hotel 14-18 Smith Street Collingwood (opposite 3CR).
>April 9 7.30pm Catherine Magee, Patrick Alexander, Coral Hull, John Anderson.
>April 23 Lyn Boughton, Daniel Keen, Alison Croggon and Craig Sherbourne.
>Details ph Adrian Rawlins (03) 9417 2869.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>AWOL
>Australian Writing On Line
>awol@ozemail.com.au
>http://www.ozemail.com.au/~awol/
>PO Box 333 Concord NSW 2137 Australia
>Phone 61 2 7475667
>Fax 61 2 7472802
>
__________________________________
Mark Roberts
Student Systems Project Officer
Information Systems
University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia
M.Roberts@isu.usyd.edu.au
PH:(02)351 5066
FAX:(02)351 5081
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 20:33:55 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Poetry video & Performance
thanks cris cheek fr yr tuppence. i teach some of the dub poets and jean
binta breeze knocks'em dead in the classroom everytime. it works. and
michael smith. i had one wonderful student who became a performance poet
after hearing my tape of michael smith saying "lawwwwwwwwwd...," francine
conley. she performs in madison wi and i think went to SF for some
competition. i've never seen brit performance stuff other than reading your
descriptions of your performing ranges (ex-rengas). md
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 14:40:32 GMT+1300
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: Re: Performance poetry/Nagy's book
going back a bit to 1981 THE POETRY READING A contemporary
Compendium on Language & Performance ed. stephen Vincent & Ellen
Zweig Momo's Press, 1981, San Francisco COLLECTIVE
CONSCIOUSNESS ART PERFORMANCES IN THE 70'S
Performing Arts Journal Publications New York 1980
Henry M.Sayre THE OBJECT OF PERFORMANCE
University of Chicago Press 1989 are on my shelves and might or
might not be useful. With investigations like the one you mention,
you have to make the theory up. Best way. More fun.
Tony Green,
e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 23:27:57 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Poetry video & Performance
maria d. lawwwwwwwwwd do you mean that chicago guy or the lead singer
of the FALL--who is a great performance poet that everyone should
listen to (though I haven't in a while)--
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 23:43:07 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Poetry video & Performance
Thanks Chris Cheek for that great wonderful note about loving all
kinds of music lyrics.
We need not call them "performance poetry" to legitimize them.
I like to read "poetry atrophies when it gets too far from music"
not so much in terms of "melopeia" (that's really unavoidable)
nor in terms of the "hybrid" kind of "performance poetry" that's
"too musical for most poets but not musical enough for most poets"---
One of the things that bummed me out about reading on the
LOLLAPALOOZA TOUR (sic?) was that I was hoping we'd get to hang
with the musicians more--but it was pretty separate.....
I play piano and write three chord type songs. I have made no
effort to "get them out" yet (due in part to time and $$$$).
I know alot of other poets (even those who like me and Mr. Cheek
resemble Harryman and Ashbery more in our writing) who also
have an interest in Reggae, Punk, Dylan, Gil Scott-Heron etc...
and feel no need to say "well, they're NOT POETS!" which I always
thought was a defensive move made by those (no names, that would
be stupid) envious of their fame, and hopefully not any fear of
rastafarian politics....got to build our love on one foundation...
tell me who are the criminals.....
just babbling here....chris
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 01:52:34 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rod Smith <AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Happy poetry month
Mr. Haas published two prose poems by Laynie Browne in
the Washington Post about a month ago. It said "she lives in NYC" -- several
months after she'd moved to Seattle so I'm not sure she knew it was going to
happen. Great to see tho.
>The coolest thing Bob Haas talked about was his mission to change
>various newspaper"s opinion of poetry
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 16:57:22 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Mark Roberts <M.Roberts@ISU.USYD.EDU.AU>
Subject: AWOL's Virtual small press bookshop
Just to let people know that AWOL has begun to upload its Virtual Bookshop
onto its www site. If you are interested AWOL's address is
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~awol
Take a look and see what you think. Better still order a book!! All prices
are in Aust dollars but can be converted to US$ or UK pounds or whatever.
Send any comments/suggestions to awol@ozemail.com.au
__________________________________
Mark Roberts
Student Systems Project Officer
Information Systems
University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia
M.Roberts@isu.usyd.edu.au
PH:(02)351 5066
FAX:(02)351 5081
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 00:24:00 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: tosh berman <tosh@LOOP.COM>
Subject: Re: Poetry video & Performance
One should look into "throwaway lyrics." Frank Black is really good at
this type of writing,and so are any artist that has an active b-side
career. They get loose, strange, and of course very odd. Down with
Masterpieces and up with the odd b-side recording!
tosh
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 02:28:43 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: mikl-em <mike@KID-LINEAR.TAYLOR.ORG>
Subject: why is art and how did she get in my backstroke. the soup?
Chris S.--the Criminals are a band from Berkeley, there is an interview w/
'em in the next Maximum Rock and Roll.
I nod also kudoishly to chris cheek for his litaneous post of fine lyrical
types. And also Chris the Fall tip is a ver strong one, there is much
going on in Mark E Smith's lyrics , skewness and set in live and undeniable
performance, that is occurrence. And that is one important difference to
me between the writ and spoke word:
there are implicit assumptions about language, and by their insistence,
by occurrence, speech and writing violate differently these "rules"--this
is my particular fascination-- can the author "lie" to us by forinstance
changing a word [or a letter] in a piece of quoted material, or david
antin's violation of logical syntax in "stanzas"--the author does, in the
same way that it is undeniable that something which is used in a collage
has existed somehow in the real world; of course now, with photoshop and
other computer resources the eyes cannot even be trusted--again someone is
CHEATING, tampering with the empiracles!these are things that are so
bold-faced they leave folk huffin and puffn frustrate in their wake--and
that may be oldhatnews to the fine folks on the Poetics list, but hav you
heard the Pavement tunes where the lead [could be led] singer alternates
almost identical phrases at no set interval, violating the expectation for
order ["career" and "Korea" or "I'll try" and "I'm trying") I get a buzz
from such in either song or er-verse, But in a live or recorded performance
different evidences are e-skewed.
I am more than willing to take a lyricist seriously--becuz what is
serious? wel serious to me turns out to mean determined. There sure are a
lot of serious poets around. but Important is the term for me that means,
a) this is work that resonates with me, and b) I sense a cohesion and
"success" of hitting the artist's own unaffected expression.
--or purposed affectation, as in a deliberate filter through which the poem
is passed
of course also violation of the above at right angles , break the rules
about breaking the rules.......
which is why the Mac Low/Cage ideas sometimes feel too clean to me, nice
all the same and very worthy, but definitely yes Formal exercises and I
prefer other occassions
anyway, I think that Hall lets himself down and the Fall's Smith seems
uneven but is truer ultimately to hisself and so does me more good.
One last-lost point, I developed a great deal as a poet and performer in
the midst of a punk-rock music scene in Richmond VA, it gave a context in
which the expression of a twenny-sumthiner was valid; in the misshapen
shadow of a down-sizing art school bands painters and poets intermingled
making art-things thata t least seemed to be appreciated by those who
viewed them.. And at the same time the MFA students didn't want to attend
let alone read in the open or scheduled readings as if it would taint there
rep to read in public--and the faculty...well, here's a quote "You know I
usually get PAID for doing this...."
I have been happily swimming/drowning through Bruce Andrews "Give 'em
Enough Rope," recently. And I was so taken with the fact that it shared a
title with a Clash album that I had totally forgotten the fact that it
originated from the phrase with the punchline "and they'll hang themselves."
which makes the title much even more much fittinger, apt perfect,
important. To me its wonderful that the pop usage of a phrase can eclipse
the root of its existence; I don't know if my experience is exactly
what Andrews had in mind, but I do believe that he would be pleased with
that effect.
Cheers to All makers, I'll see you on the bus.
mikl.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 02:42:06 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: National Poultry Month
Simon,
two things:
I can't recall any other laureate (or its more utilitiarian
predecessor, the consultant to the Library of Congress) who would have
brought either Lyn or Carl to the L.O.C. That represents a significant
change. Others, like Strand, have done little or none of the
"ambassadorial" type functions. So, yes, different people do approach
that spot differently. Rita Dove got an enormous amount of press for
African American writing in general in her term.
Still, I would never want to deny the value a Michael Lally (his
workshop alumni take up a good portion of In the American Tree), the
indefatigable organizer operating on a local level. The Tysh family and
Kofi Natambu in Detroit (who together had, at least ten years ago, done
a great job bridging the old American racial chasm), DF Brown in
Houston, Paul Piper in Missoula, Ann Kingsbury and Karl Gartung in
Milwaukee, Gil Ott right here in Philadelphia -- this country (and I
suspect others) is full of people without whom poetry itself literally
could not survive. We need to cherish them all.
But it's not an either/or situation, is it?
Ron Silliman
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 07:59:40 GMT
Reply-To: Samuel_R._Truitt@tunanet.com
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Samuel R. Truitt" <Samuel_R._Truitt@TUNANET.COM>
Organization: tunanet
Subject: Ichor Reading
Will be reading:
Rod Smith, Mark McMorris, & Virginia Hooper
Friday, April 19 @ 8:30pm
Ichor Gallery
127 West 26 Street, 9th Floor
There's a 3 dollar donation, most of which will be tipped to Smith and
McMorris to offset travel.
Samuel Truitt
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 09:15:28 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Poetry video & Performance
chris s, are you asking about michael smith or about my former student
francine conley? francine is a she (whatever that means) and is a solo
performance poet in madison WI.. Smith was a dub poet in Jamaica who was
killed by stoning (yes, incredible) by members of a political party at whose
rally he'd been verbally challenging ("heckling") the night or week before.
see his posthumous book out from New Directions, IT A COME, and better yet,
listen to his tapes, and also see Kamau Brathwaite 's poem for him in Middle
Passages.--md
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 09:15:35 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Happy national poetry month
are we only allowed to read happy, nationalist type poetry this month? time
to break out von hallberg's american poetry and culture again to find out if
there is such a thing...--md
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 09:31:44 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Poetry video & Performance
thanx, chris c., for that fine modulation... always been fond of song lyrix
mself, and in fact (no need to blush here i hope) have been as inspired by
same as by poems... one quick note along the lines of poets who use lyrix
actively in their work (could this be another thread?): toby olson's
"standards" series, whereby he riffs on... standards!...
best,
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 09:36:00 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Julie Marie Schmid <jschmid@BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Poetry video & Performance
In-Reply-To: <828998192.9780.0@slang.demon.co.uk>
Amen, Cris!!
I was struck by what you say about reading slam, dub, rap along with
Watten, Hejinian, Derek Walcott. The idea isn't (or shouldn't be) to
ghettoize, but to read all these voice in concert. I got into
contemporary poetry through the language poets and find much of what
they're doing and writing about (both poetry and essay) as helpful in
thinking about more performance-based poetries.
Thanks for your post. It's given me something to chew on!
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:02:37 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Julie Marie Schmid <jschmid@BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Happy poetry month
In-Reply-To: <960409015234_187450447@emout06.mail.aol.com>
To get on the Robert Haas bandwagon:
I saw him speak this winter at the Harold Washington Library in Chicago.
He gave a talk entitled "Democratic Vistas" and then the obligatory colon
and something about the poet and the economy. It was supposed to be a
dialogue with Thulani Davis, but due to the blizzard on the East Coast
she couldn't make it--alas! Mr. Haas spoke for awhile about the poet as
implicated in a gift economy--she has to return the gift, etc. He did a
stunning job of tying this into the realities of literacy and education
in this country and really got the audience thinking about the connection
between reading poetry and democracy--Whitman's "nation of poets." After
talking for about an hour, he opened the discussion up to the audience
and had people telling about specific activities in their communities,
both poetic and political (if you care to separate the two). Likewise,
people started asking Haas and other audience members for suggestions
about things that could be done at the grass roots level. The discussion
went on for about two more hours.
What really amazed me about this evening was Haas's complete commitment to
the community and the way that he really imparted that feeling to other
people present. As it was a free, public reading at the library, it was
attended by quite a few non-academic, non-poet types. I attended the
discussion with non-poet folk (2 ad.
execs. and 1 CPA--ages: 2 twenty-somethings, 1 baby boomer). The four
of us left there impassioned and went home
and talked about the reading for hours. In fact, it still comes up in
conversation. I don't know how much it changed people's lives, but I do
know that since that evening my three friends have been attending readings
and slams regularly with me and have caught the bug.
All this is a really long-winded way of saying that although I, too, have
reservations about the whole poet laureate schtick, I think Haas is
completely committed to the idea of a community poetics and that he is
striking some chord in people through his work as p.l.
P.S. My only regret is that Thulani Davis didn't make it. What an
evening that would've been!
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 12:45:39 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Happy poetry month
hear hear on poetry activists! thanks julie schmid for your heartwarming tale
engagement and community. -bests, maria d
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:04:01 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: West Coast Brodey Reading
Small Press Traffic and the Poetics Department of New College
present a celebration of Hard Press' publication of Jim Brodey's Heart of
the Breath (ed. Clark Coolidge)
Readings and remembrances by Bill Berkson, Tom Clark, Robert Grenier, Larry
Kearney, and Joanne Kyger
Friday, April 12 at the New College Theater
777 Valencia Street, 7:30 p.m
Jim Brodey, born in Brooklyn, 30 November 1942, died (of AIDS) San
Francisco 16 July 1993.
Empty wine bottle cold as Hoboken in November
Or Mission Street in ancient San Francisco
Where the lawns grow heather-like and men
Caught in the whirlwind of heaven worldweary
Men leaning into holes in space on lawns green
Pills coming on the earth revolving into sleep
-from Jim Brodey's "Jack Kerouac"
His zigzag is unearthly, sometimes. Not just word/nerve/combinations, but
flowing structures to amaze the gloom of lower Manhattan. The discipline
inherent in Kerouac's locomotive meditations (which look so easy when
read), is fed-back to him, but in mad overdubbing stanzas. Brodey's book
is a flying horse of wild crab language served up by a poet already
well-versed in how a poem walks.
-Ted Berrigan
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 13:09:24 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Smith <CharSSmith@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Fanny Howe video...
Jena-- do you know how one might get a copy of this?
"--Fanny Howe's _What Nobody Saw_: this video was definitely the highlight
for me. I think it comes closest to what Tim Wood may be looking for.
The images worked with the words in a truly evocative way so that they
were in fact the _language_ of the poem (as opposed to an illustration of
it)."
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 13:21:12 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Edward Foster <EFOSTER@VAXC.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Russian/American Poetry Conference
PROSPECT: The Second Sensational Festival of Russian and American
Poetry and Poets
Bruce Andrews, Arkadii Dragomoshchenko, John High, Jackson Mac Low,
Vadim Mesyats, Eileen Myles, Maya Nikulina, Simon Pettet, Lev Rubinshtein,
Leslie Scalapino, Aaron Shurin, Elena Shvarts, Nathaniel Tarn, John Yau,
Ivan Zhdanov, and a most stellar assembly of other great poets, critics,
academics, and terrific people in general.
Call for papers: those wishing to participate in academic sessions and
panel discussions, please submit proposals as soon as possible but not
later than May 1st.
POETS WHO WISH TO READ THEIR WORK AT THE FESTIVAL: please contact us
AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
May 23-26, 1996
Stevens Institute of Technology
Hoboken, New Jersey
(directly across the river from Manhattan; one subway stop from
the West Village)
Registration fee: a mere $35 (which we'll waive if that's outside your
budget)!
Amazing (reasonably priced) dinners!
Limited (inexpensive!) housing!
For information: Ed Foster or Vadim Mesyats, Dept. of Humanities,
Stevens Institute of Technology, Hoboken, New Jersey 07030; tel. (201)
216-5397, fax (201) 216-8245; e-mail efoster@VAXC.STEVENS-TECH.EDU
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 14:29:34 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: why is art and how did she get in my backstroke. the soup?
Dear Mikl---Yes on PAVEMENT ambiguity (career-korea, like early REM etc)
Dear Maria D.-- Yes on Michael Smith....certainly no happy nationalist...
-----------------
another question---much of this talk of poetry slams and open readings
and performance poetry seems to involve assumptions about "democracy"
that I question. That the "avant-garde sophisticates" need to be in
touch with the more "populist" slams, etc......
But, it seems to me there is at least as much HEIRARCHY and SNOBISM
and even a "star-system" in the slam scene as in the "avant-garde
sophisticate" scene. Maggie Estep is seen as a kind of metonymy for
" a NYC slam poet" by many (just as BERNSTEIN is seen as a metonymy
for Paul Naylor, etc).
I am not trying to be judgmental here, but trying to come to a
clearer understanding of the difficulties involved in forging
alliances between these scenes. In PHILA, in the late 80
's I was originally far more embraced by a largely black "open
mic" scene (we didn't call them slams--perhaps because the illusion
of co-operation hadn't yet been REAGANED out) UNTIL I stopped reading
a certain kind of poem.
Wouldn't it be nice if more events combined these two groups
without snobbery on either side?
----
Of course, then there's the other question--
We (was it Amato?) may say "WE RESPECT EVERYTHING" and that can
be our public political stance, but at the same time there's always
these DECISIONS to make, and these preferences.....
so, should we just cop out and say it's arbitrary...
or that so and so has a bigger name
or that so and so is less of a threat
or that so and so has done me alot of favors so therefore
or that so and so is REALLY good in bed
or sat up with me in my hour of DREAD...
----
why do so many people, when they talk of poetics, sound
like politicians (me no excluded here)?
"let me make this perfectly clear," etc----
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 13:35:15 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Alexander <chax@MTN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Happy national poetry month
>are we only allowed to read happy, nationalist type poetry this month? time
>to break out von hallberg's american poetry and culture again to find out if
>there is such a thing...--md
Here in Minneapolis the Big Poetry events for National Poetry Month are
sponsored by LitLink, which includes Graywolf Press, Coffee House Press,
Milkweed Editions, New Rivers Press, and The Loft Writers' Center, are being
held at the Mall of America (largest shopping mall in the country, I think),
and they are all rather geared around a "reach for poetry and feel good
about life" atmosphere, or at least it seems so from the ways in which the
events are being promoted.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 14:58:16 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Henry Gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: why is art and how did she get in my backstroke. the soup?
In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 9 Apr 1996 14:29:34 -0400 from
<LS0796@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU>
On Tue, 9 Apr 1996 14:29:34 -0400 Chris Stroffolino said:
> Of course, then there's the other question--
> We (was it Amato?) may say "WE RESPECT EVERYTHING" and that can
> be our public political stance, but at the same time there's always
> these DECISIONS to make, and these preferences.....
> so, should we just cop out and say it's arbitrary...
> or that so and so has a bigger name
> or that so and so is less of a threat
> or that so and so has done me alot of favors so therefore
> or that so and so is REALLY good in bed
> or sat up with me in my hour of DREAD...
> ----
> why do so many people, when they talk of poetics, sound
> like politicians (me no excluded here)?
> "let me make this perfectly clear," etc----
Maybe if the relationship between poetry and dreams was understood more
clearly. I mean the dreams of the human race. I'm thinking of the
Wallace Stevens aphorism about "The whole race is a poet..." Say
we're dreaming of lost paradise and how to find it again. Taste rules
criticism, and intuitive affinities, and social experience (i.e. your
angle of vision) -- but it's only arrogance to imagine you've already
achieved the pinnacle(s) of truth & beauty. So humility & compassion
in responding to a poem is a kind of reciprocal openness. Onward...
(& lookout for that other sub...) (& the other lovey-dovey condors...)
- Henry Gould
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 15:19:05 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Henry Gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Happy national poetry month
In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 9 Apr 1996 13:35:15 -0500 from <chax@MTN.ORG>
On Tue, 9 Apr 1996 13:35:15 -0500 Charles Alexander said:
>Here in Minneapolis the Big Poetry events for National Poetry Month are[...]
>held at the Mall of America (largest shopping mall in the country, I think),
>and they are all rather geared around a "reach for poetry and feel good
>about life" atmosphere, or at least it seems so from the ways in which the
>events are being promoted.
Sounds like my old home town! "Hyello. Say now, you just have a really really
nice day!!" -- Estelle du Nordstrom, Vice-President, M-DABL (Minnesotans
Dream A Better Life)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 15:31:30 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Martin Spinelli <V139HLA3@UBVMS.BITNET>
Subject: coming LINEbreak promos
Folks,
I have been encouraged to post the weekly LINEbreak promotional copy to
POETICS. These are the messages that go out over the NPR computer
network to be read on air as advertisements for upcoming programs. (Bear
this in mind as you read them.)
If LINEbreak is not on in your area contact your local public or college
radio station and encourage them to carry it. (If you think only one or
two programs would be of interest in your area) stations can broadcast
individual programs if they wish.
Martin
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 15:33:30 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Martin Spinelli <V139HLA3@UBVMS.BITNET>
Subject: Cecilia Vicun~a on LINEbreak
TO: All Stations/Program Directors
FR: Martin Spinelli, LINEbreak Producer
DT: 1 April 1996
RE: "LINEbreak" - Promo for 4/4/96 program
__________________________________________________________
Title: "LINEbreak"
Program ID: 96-B64-00001
Feed Time: 4 April
1:00 a.m. Eastern Time
The following is promo copy for the April 4th LINEbreak.
**********************************************************
A new program called Linebreak is on the way. Every week
it brings you interviews and performances with the best
and most interesting writers at work today. On the first
edition of Linebreak, we feature Chilean poet Cecilia
Vicuna [si-SEEL-ya vi-COON-ya]. She'll perform songs from
the shaman tradition. Join us for Linebreak at [time/day]
on [station].
**********************************************************
Contact: Martin Spinelli, Producer/Director
302 Clemens Hall
SUNY at Buffalo
Buffalo, NY 14260-4610
Phone: 716/881-1682
Fax: 716/645-5980
E-mail: linebrk@acsu.buffalo.edu
www: http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/linebrea
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 15:34:44 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Martin Spinelli <V139HLA3@UBVMS.BITNET>
Subject: Dennis Tedlock on LINEbreak
TO: All Stations/Program Directors
FR: Martin Spinelli, LINEbreak Producer
DT: 10 April 1996
RE: "LINEbreak" - Feed Schedule + Promo for 4/11
__________________________________________________________
Title: "LINEbreak"
Program ID: 96-B64-00002
Feed Time: Thursday April 10th
1:00 A.M. Eastern Time
Channel: A73.1 M
The next LINEbreak feeds at:
1:00 A.M. Thursday Eastern Time (that's)
12:00 Midnight Wednesday Central Time
11:00 P.M. Wednesday Mountain Time
10:00 P.M. Wednesday Pacific Time
The following is promo copy for the 4/11 LINEbreak.
**********************************************************
On the next edition of Linebreak, host Charles Bernstein
speaks with ethnographer Dennis Tedlock. Dennis Tedlock
is the editor of the flagship journal The American
Anthropologist. He'll perform a translation of a Zuni
folktale. Join us for the next Linebreak on {time/day} on
{station}.
**********************************************************
Contact: Martin Spinelli, Producer/Director
302 Clemens Hall
SUNY at Buffalo
Buffalo, NY 14260-4610
Phone: 716/881-1682
Fax: 716/645-5980
E-mail: linebrk@acsu.buffalo.edu
www: http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/linebreak
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 15:36:38 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Martin Spinelli <V139HLA3@UBVMS.BITNET>
Subject: Ray Federman on LINEbreak
TO: All Stations/Program Directors
FR: Martin Spinelli, LINEbreak Producer
DT: 17 April 1996
RE: "LINEbreak" - Feed Schedule + Promo for 4/18
__________________________________________________________
Title: "LINEbreak"
Program ID: 96-B64-00003
Feed Time: Thursday April 18th
1:00 A.M. Eastern Time
Channel: A73.1 M
The next LINEbreak feeds at:
1:00 A.M. Thursday Eastern Time (that's)
12:00 Midnight Wednesday Central Time
11:00 P.M. Wednesday Mountain Time
10:00 P.M. Wednesday Pacific Time
The following is promo copy for the 4/18 LINEbreak.
**********************************************************
On the next edition of Linebreak, experimental novelist and
holocaust survivor Ray Federman [FED-der-man]. As a child, his
mother hid him in a closet to escape the Nazi round-ups in his
neighborhood. This event marked his writing in some very
UN-sentimental ways. Join us for the next Linebreak on
{time/day} on {station}.
**********************************************************
Contact: Martin Spinelli, Producer/Director
302 Clemens Hall
SUNY at Buffalo
Buffalo, NY 14260-4610
Phone: 716/881-1682
Fax: 716/645-5980
E-mail: linebrk@acsu.buffalo.edu
www: http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/linebreak
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 15:38:15 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Martin Spinelli <V139HLA3@UBVMS.BITNET>
Subject: Lance and Andi Olsen on LINEbreak
TO: All Stations/Program Directors
FR: Martin Spinelli, LINEbreak Producer
DT: 24 April 1996
RE: "LINEbreak" - Feed Schedule + Promo for 4/25
__________________________________________________________
Title: "LINEbreak"
Program ID: 96-B64-00004
Feed Time: Thrusday April 25th
1:00 A.M. Eastern Time
Channel: A73.1 M
The next LINEbreak feeds at:
1:00 A.M. Thursday Eastern Time (that's)
12:00 Midnight Wednesday Central Time
11:00 P.M. Wednesday Mountain Time
10:00 P.M. Wednesday Pacific Time
The following is promo copy for the 4/25 LINEbreak.
**********************************************************
On the next edition of Linebreak, cyberpunks Lance and Andi Olsen
talk with host Charles Bernstein about postmodern fiction and how
TV has infected and invigorated writing. Lance reads from his new
novel Burn, and Andi puts video tape through some artistic paces
on the next Linebreak--right here on {station} at {time/day}.
**********************************************************
Contact: Martin Spinelli, Producer/Director
302 Clemens Hall
SUNY at Buffalo
Buffalo, NY 14260-4610
Phone: 716/881-1682
Fax: 716/645-5980
E-mail: linebrk@acsu.buffalo.edu
www: http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/linebreak
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 15:55:16 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rae Armantrout <RaeA100900@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Poetic Briefs
I tried to respond backchannel to an offer to send Poetic Briefs to whomever
was interested. (I believe the posting was from Jeff Hanson).But my
backchannel went awry and my message was returned. So I'll just tell the
whole list. Yes, I'm interested in receiving an issue of Poetic Briefs.
Rae Armantrout
4774 E. Mtn. View Dr.
San Diego, Ca. 92116
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 15:12:56 CST6CDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Hank Lazer <hlazer@AS.UA.EDU>
Organization: The University of Alabama
Subject: Re: Poetic Briefs
I had the same problem as Rae. Please send me Poetics Briefs:
Hank Lazer
2945 N Hampton Dr
Tuscaloosa, AL 35406-2701
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 13:53:15 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Carl Lynden Peters <clpeters@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Poetic Briefs
In-Reply-To: <16443983997@as.ua.edu> from "Hank Lazer" at Apr 9, 96 03:12:56 pm
>
> I had the same problem as Rae. Please send me Poetics Briefs:
>
> Hank Lazer
> 2945 N Hampton Dr
> Tuscaloosa, AL 35406-2701
ditto. -- i'd very much appreciate this, too:
c. peters
dept. of english
simon fraser univ.
burnaby, BC canada
V5A 1S6
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 18:27:42 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: this week in poetry (new york)
white guys! white guys! white guys!
but Walter, how are we reproducing science? : )
or should I ask.
______
To recap:
Wednesday, Charles North (villified not long ago by Edgar Allen ((sic sic
sic transit spelling)) Poe, but he's a 'pretty' strong subtle poet, looking
forward to the selected from S&M) and David Lehman are reading up at Maison
Francaise at Columbia.
Thursday, here at Poetry City, Ron Silliman (author of like a hundred
books) and Lewis Warsh (author of like a hundred books.. just finished _A
Free Man_ and I don't find my way through too many contemporary novels.. I
strongly recommend _Free_ and _Agnes & Sally_ as just about as real and
bedraggled as prose can stand), 6:30, free, lots of books for sale, it's
National Poetry Month--_buy books_.
Friday, over at Segue, the profoundly charming Tim Davis will read poems
from photographs. That's Segue Performance Space, 303 E. 8th (betw. B & C),
7:30 PM, and if you haven't seen Tim read, or you haven't seen Tim read for
a year, you're due for a checkup from the Doctor!
Saturday, over at the nicest cave in town, the EAR, at 2:30 p.m. Chris
"Lollapalooza" Stroffolino and I will be reading our poems. I understand
Chris will be bingeing on patent leather; I'm going maximum chiffon.
____
Hurry! But don't forget to eat! A copy of _Tjanting_ will be awarded after
the Poetry City reading to the person who can best answer the question,
"What are those black things under seals' eyes?"
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 17:43:00 PDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steve Carll <sjcarll@SLIP.NET>
Subject: stop breathin', breathin' for me now
At 02:29 PM 4/9/96 -0400, Chris S. wrote:
> Dear Mikl---Yes on PAVEMENT ambiguity (career-korea, like early REM etc)
Yay ambiguity!
> But, it seems to me there is at least as much HEIRARCHY and SNOBISM
> and even a "star-system" in the slam scene as in the "avant-garde
> sophisticate" scene.
I think any scene eventually (de?)generates this kind of hierarchy; it seems
to be a facet of institutionalization. "Star-system" strikes me as
particularly apt for the slam structure, or maybe any "populist" performance
scene, which might explain why of all the poetries this one has been
embraced by MTV. Which is not to say that being conscious of oneself as a
"sophisticate" isn't another way of playing "star", only that MTV's not as
interested in that particular mode at the moment.
> We (was it Amato?) may say "WE RESPECT EVERYTHING" and that can
> be our public political stance, but at the same time there's always
> these DECISIONS to make, and these preferences.....
> so, should we just cop out and say it's arbitrary...
> or that so and so has a bigger name
> or that so and so is less of a threat
> or that so and so has done me alot of favors so therefore
> or that so and so is REALLY good in bed
> or sat up with me in my hour of DREAD...
How about "so and so creates stuff that really fucks with MY personal head
in a most righteous way"? That shouldn't mean any disrespect for someone
whose work simply doesn't, should it? (But since you brought it up, who IS
really good in bed? Never mind, knowing can only torment me :-)
> why do so many people, when they talk of poetics, sound
> like politicians (me no excluded here)?
> "let me make this perfectly clear," etc----
Well Chris, your question reminds me of something my daddy once said to me,
he said "Son..."
Steve
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:35:47 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Poetic Briefs
sure, i'll take one two. (PB 20)
maria damon
128 racing beach ave
falmouth ma 02540
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 20:33:30 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Thomas Bell <tbjn@WELL.COM>
Subject: Re: Poetic Briefs
In-Reply-To: <199604092053.UAA14757@beaufort.sfu.ca>
Sane problem
Thomas Bell
2546 Hibbitts Rd.
Nashville, TN 37214
On Tue, 9 Apr 1996, Carl Lynden Peters wrote:
> >
> > I had the same problem as Rae. Please send me Poetics Briefs:
> >
> > Hank Lazer
> > 2945 N Hampton Dr
> > Tuscaloosa, AL 35406-2701
>
> ditto. -- i'd very much appreciate this, too:
>
> c. peters
> dept. of english
> simon fraser univ.
> burnaby, BC canada
> V5A 1S6
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 00:28:57 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Mary Rising Higgins <HigginsMR@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Happy national poetry month
So, like if I break out Von Hallberg's american poetry & culture will I find
an answer to the question: What does which poetry have to do with whose idea
of culture anymore...??
mary
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 01:24:43 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Bob Holman <Nuyopoman@AOL.COM>
Subject: Poetry video
Point being, I guess, that we evaluate what we come into contact with and too
few come into contact with poetry. Just a point of view here, that po
lightens and brightens and changes the world when language gets real in a way
like love. Also we can rock em.
To me, big difference in being a poet is that indeed we are those who
presume, as Joe says, to be so, as opposed to, say, those who might presume
to be a medical doctor. Good carpenters generally make a living at it. Do
poets? Good poets? What the Slam is all about, I think, is giving the
naming-of-poets power to people in a Wonderland way. Which is, I maintain,
better than no way at all, and can be rough fun. Also, can be boring and
predictable. Hand me that Fat Side of the Post Century Millennial, maybe I
can find the 100% correct spelling there.
When Ismail Azim-El says the CIA was formerly known as the SS in his It s so
hot today poem in USOP (show #2), does it upset because of politics or
aesthetics or is it written off for the same (or other) reasons?
Who says that performance complicates poetry ? That s great! My impression
is the opposite: performance simplify to a single chord or visual or
whatever. I didn t get Creeley till I heard him read -- then I saw the space
around the lines as part of poem, heard his words as containers of emotion.
For me, the poem is what is transmitted as the poem however it s transmitted.
Poetry for me provides voice for the unheard. That is a language issue.
Now back to this Hall character. I was hoping the Dovetonsils reference would
pitch us into a TV tour of Literature -- far I know, Percy was the first ever
on TV and the first time I saw a living poet, and it was hilarious and made
me angry because he was too easy. Hall s pose, too, is to make fun of your
saying he s too easy within a performance you ll think too easy, like Dumb
Art. Btw, what did you think of Lord Buckley s appearance in show 1?
To Wystan, yup, that was me at MAndre s loft, frontchannel greets. To Cris
Creek, backchannel me info on who to get with re: USOP on Brit Tv, and thanks
for some great reading/listening leads. And dear Simon, when I am PoLariat
You ll be my Queen! except I think I go for Tom Clark (& party!) to lead the
way -- he s more experienced at these PoWars than I.
Bob Holman
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 01:25:06 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Bob Holman <Nuyopoman@AOL.COM>
Subject: National Poetry Month
Thanks, David Bartier, for the Hass scoops. I have taught from his River of
Words curriculum, and enjoyed esp. his essay re: Duncan and spawning salmon.
I had a pleasant enough chat with him 3-4 weeks ago and set up an inteview
for iGuide (http://ww.iGuide.com/music/poetry) which he blew off, just up and
disappeared. I finally roused his assistant yesterday (three weeks later),
when Ileft a message I'd composed questions _and_ answers myself ala
Berrigan-Cage and wondered if Bob would like to see the thing before I
publish it....
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 01:26:47 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Bob Holman <Nuyopoman@AOL.COM>
Subject: Michael Smith
"Michael Smith was on the threshold of consolidating a rapidly rising
international reputation as a poet when he was murdered by supporters of the
Jamaican Labor Party on 17th August, 1983" writes Linton Kwesi Johnson on the
back cover of "It A Come: Poems by Michael Smith" (Race Today
Publications:London, 1986). Smith's first LP, "Mi Cyaan Believe It," had just
been released by Island Records.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 01:46:12 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: stop breathin', breathin' for me now
(write it on a postcard)
Dear Steve C.
Do you think the question of heirarchies relates to what Henry
Gould called taste? The ambivalence here, for me much of the time,
relates to the "division" between "public" and "private" in many
ways. If the so-called private is really public, which I believe
it is, then the "subjective" can be considered as legitimate as the
so-called "objective" (which is really subjective). Thus, the
link of private with subjective and public with objective can be
blown apart or simply ignored and seen as false as if we aren't
"always already" corrupted by the linguistic grids we're (i mean I)
trained in from elementary school or wherever. Thus, I disagree
with Gould on the point of trying to find a "lost paradise" or
some primordial Wordsworthian childing dancing on the shore--but
I am interested in "dwelling in possibility" (as well as in prose)
and so I can not claim FULLY AND ACCURATELY what, indeed, my taste
is. And I suspect others who claim they can as boxing themselves in
(like Perelman's great pun on the spectators who "MUST FIND WHAT
IDENTITIES THEY CAN"). Yet, at the same time, I feel to some extent
OBLIGATED to question others when they claim to be "democratic."
Perhaps, it's because I've been raised in a country in which this
word is pretty much a meaningless buzzword. Now, what is TRUE
DEMOCRACY (aside from a Steal Pulse album with that great song
"ravers" on it---whoops, ron silliman, unintentional typo)?
is it perhaps a democracy that admits of heirarchy, admits of
the arbitrariness of taste, admits of individuals, and to be honest
I feel a lack of such a world. I guess I'm afraid to offend people
by saying "this doesn't work for me" or afraid that I will end up
eating my words because suddenly tomorrow it a poem I derided today
as drivel may become the ONLY THING THAT GETS ME THROUGH that day....
And then when it moves from "poems" to "poets" to "scenes" to whatever,
there arise all these questions of "package deals". And I know I
should not let these things worry me, but do I now?
But in lieu of simply shutting up about it--"I won't tread on you if
you won't tread on me"--I also have been absolutely SHAKEN (in a way
I call positive) by the "fools who rush in where angels fear to tread"
and who dare say things like "OF course, Pound is stupid" or something.
It quickens the reactive mind, and Pam Rehm somewhere has that great
think about "locate CREATION in REACTION" and thus perhaps maybe it
would be a more TRULY DEMOCRATIC world if we did away with the "trickle
down" theory of Democracy and actually delineated exactly what has MOVED
US up to this point and what has NOT...even if such a delineation
will seem heirarchical and subjective. This doesn't mean that one
becomes immune from questioning, but that such questions will not be
merely asked by one's self, but by others. I am curious as to what
"liking everyone equally as poets" (as I understand Maria Damon's
position) really means. It seems alien to me. Yet does that make
me a snob? I hope not. I don't think poetry's necessarily an exalted
activity. In fact, it may be a crutch alot, a neurotic activity,
a compensation. Yet I'll DEFEND it against others who I see as just
as deluded (Westerberg---"I suppose your guess is more or less as bad
as mind" as a VERY empowering statement).This depends on "mood" and
"need" as much as taste. For instance, I look at Shakespeare and I
say "he must have really needed to write that way" and perhaps that
makes me democratic, joined to others by NEED.....
but is it a manufactured need, ah, that's another question....
and I am drawn to poets who deal with THAT question too....
chris
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 16:36:37 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Mark Roberts <M.Roberts@ISU.USYD.EDU.AU>
Subject: AWOL new magazines at the Virtual Bookshop
The following magazines are now available (along with lots more) at the
AWOL Virtual Bookshop. Point your browser to
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~awol/bookshop1.html and order away!! (All
prices are Aust dollars but can be converted. Price covers sea mail. Air
mail prices on application).
Going Down Swinging 15
One of Australia's leading independant literary magazines, Going Down
Swinging, is now available at the AWOL Virtual Bookshop.
The latest issue, GDS 15, is dedicated to Barrett Reid. Highlights include
an interview with Yevgeny Yevtushenko by Melbourne journalist John
Doggett-Williams; a fascinating essay/story by Stephen J Williams on the
conection between the 'eye' and the 'I'; and the photo art of Heather
Winter, accompanid by her essay on the subject. There is also work by new
and exciting writers such as Emma Lew, Anthony Macris, Bernadette Creechan
and Alan Wayman (to name a few) together with new work from better knwon
writers such as Kerry Scuffins, pi0, kevin Brophy, Eric Beach and Lauren
Williams.
"The fifteenth issue of Going Down Swinging is, then a celebration....it is
a glimpse of a healthy literay culture that continues to flourish." from
the editorial.
Aust$10.00
OVERLAND 142
Australian Writing On Line is pleased to announce that it is now
distributing Overland magazine. Overland has been one of Australia's
leading literary and cultural magazine's for decades.
Issue 142 contains fiction by Merv Lilley, and CC Mitchell; poetry by Bruce
Dawe, Diana Fahey, Stella Turner, Susan Hawthorne, Stephen J Williams,
Peter Murphy, Sandy Jeffs and Emma Lew; graphics by Vane Lindsay, Chester
Eagle, Jiri Tibor, Wes Placek, John Copeland, Zofia Nowicka, Donald
Greenfield, Bev Aisbett and Lofo; The features section features a tribute
to Barrett Reid which includes pieces by John Philip, Rick Amour, Shelton
Lea, Rona Arndt, Vida Horn (with Thea Astley), Eric Beach, Stephen J
Williams together with three poems by Barrett.
Aust$8.00
TINFISH 2
The second issue of this US (Hawai'i) based magazine is now available
through AWOL. Tinfish concentrates on publishing invovative writing from
around the Pacific. Contributors to the second issue include: Joe Balaz,
Charles Bernstein, Mary Burger, Steven Bradbury, Jonathan Branned, Don
Brunn, Eric Cook, Leslie Davis, Murray Edmond, RM Ernest, Alison Georgeson,
Richard Hamasaki, Hank lazer, Carolyn Lei-Lanilau, Sean Macbeth, Sheila E
Murphy. Tony Quagiano, Stephen Radcliffe, Red Flea, Joan Retallack, Laura
Ruby, Chris Stroffolino, Carolyn Steinhoff Smith, Terese Svoboda, Mark
Wallace, Rob Wilson and Zhou Yaping.
(distributed by AWOL in Australia and New Zealand readers from the US
should contact Susan Schultz at sschultz@hawaii.edu ).
Aust $5.00
Posted on behalf of AWOL (awol@ozemail.com.au)
__________________________________
Mark Roberts
Student Systems Project Officer
Information Systems
University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia
M.Roberts@isu.usyd.edu.au
PH:(02)351 5066
FAX:(02)351 5081
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 04:19:44 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Deadly Virus !!!
Poetics gang,
The following is an internal IBM communique about a virus (thus I would
presume this to be real and not a variation of the Good Times hoax).
Forewarned is forearmed.
Ron
*** Forwarding note from RADFORD --RHQVM14 04/09/96 13:42 ***
To: TSS Service Planning - Raleigh
From: B. L. Radford
Information Center Analyst
8-571-5026 / (919) 461-5026
SUBJECT: Deadly Virus !!!
FYI - be sure to read !!!
From: R. L. Bond, Consultant Liaison
SystemView Information Bureau
Dept/H15 Bldg/503 Loc/B324
Subject: FYI - DO NOT DOWNLOAD PKZIP300
fyi
DO NOT DOWNLOAD ANY FILE NAMED PKZIP300 REGARDLESS OF THE
EXTENSION!!!
WARNING!!!!! Read the following and take note for those of you who
access
the web and ftp sites. . . BE WARE!!! Notify your friends and family
and
total strangers too!!! We don't want to deal with anything like this
what-so-ever!!!
>>>
>>>Hi all,
We work closely with the military and received this message from a very
reliable source in DC this morning.
A NEW Trojan Horse Virus has emerged on the internet with the
name
PKZIP300.ZIP, so named as to give the impression that this
file is
a new version of the PKZIP software used to "ZIP" (compress)
files.
DO NOT DOWNLOAD this file under any circumstances!!! If you
install
or expand this file, the virus WILL wipe your hard disk clean
and
affect modems at 14.4 and higher. This is an extremely
destructive
virus and there is NOT yet a way of cleaning up this one.
REPEAT: DO NOT DOWNLOAD ANY FILE NAMED PKZIP300 REGARDLESS OF
THE
EXTENSION!!!
Thanks,
John Scheible
scheible@vnet.ibm.com
Regards,
Bill
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:30:50 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Henry Gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: stop breathin', breathin' for me now
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 10 Apr 1996 01:46:12 -0400 from
<LS0796@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU>
On Wed, 10 Apr 1996 01:46:12 -0400 Chris Stroffolino said:
Thus, I disagree
> with Gould on the point of trying to find a "lost paradise" or
> some primordial Wordsworthian childing dancing on the shore--but
> I am interested in "dwelling in possibility" (as well as in prose)
Well, I been accused of bein a meister-reductivizer too, so I guess I can
take it. Everybody's got their own vocabulary for it, whether it's
Platonic (humankind naturally seeks "the good") or Dante (direct your will
toward the true good) or Poe (mankind naturally seeks the perverse just
to be perverse) (all these mally-blanche authorities again, sorry),
or real democracy & the Amurrican way - but I say we ALL looking for it.
But what I was really interested in was the connection between
dream & poetry - that poetry in english, for one example, starts in
"dream-vision" - & that sleep dreams have a linguistic texture - and
that dreams are riddles or wishes - & that poetry "fabricates" vision
in a related way. Prose fiction tends to "solidify" the dream in
a realistic manner (I know I'm being reductive now) - whereas I see poetry
playing back and forth in a more concentrated way between dream and
act, script and performance.
- Henry Gould
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:01:19 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Emily Lloyd <emilyl@EROLS.COM>
Subject: darkly wise
I remembered, in a weird flashbacky way, a line from the first poem that
ever really got me...I was 5 or 6 and it was in some anthology of, I assume,
dead white boys, and there was a line in it that went: "And if you be wise,
be you darkly wise, darkly wise as a" <something something>...or something
like that. At the time, I was so affected I tore it out of the library
book, got in deep kimshi, etc...now I don't remember who wrote it. Does
anyone recognize those lines? I've never come across them since. em
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Emily Lloyd emilyl@erols.com
"It takes time to make queer people"--gertrude stein
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:12:18 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Poetic Briefs
yeah, please sign me up for a pair of poetics briefs... i'm a 32...
joe amato
5040 s. woodlawn ave. #3N
chicago, il 60615
thanx!...
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:25:30 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Daniel Bouchard <Daniel_Bouchard@HMCO.COM>
Subject: Re: darkly wise
Emily:
You wrote the poem. Don't you remember?
______
And if you be wise be you darkly wise
Darkly wise as a dead white boy.
I assume there was a line in it
Something something, or something like that.
Affected so was I at the time
It tore out of the library in deep kimshi, etc.
I've never come across them since
I've never come across em since.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It really got me too.
daniel_bouchard@hmco.com
"Has anybody seen my girl?" -- Bob Dylan
To: POETICS @ UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (Multiple recipients of list POETICS) @ SMTPIN
cc: (bcc: Daniel Bouchard/College/hmco)
From: emilyl @ EROLS.COM (Emily Lloyd) @ SMTPIN
Date: 04/10/96 09:01:19 AM
Subject: darkly wise
I remembered, in a weird flashbacky way, a line from the first poem that
ever really got me...I was 5 or 6 and it was in some anthology of, I assume,
dead white boys, and there was a line in it that went: "And if you be wise,
be you darkly wise, darkly wise as a" <something something>...or something
like that. At the time, I was so affected I tore it out of the library
book, got in deep kimshi, etc...now I don't remember who wrote it. Does
anyone recognize those lines? I've never come across them since. em
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Emily Lloyd emilyl@erols.com
"It takes time to make queer people"--gertrude stein
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:45:50 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Golumbia <dgolumbi@SAS.UPENN.EDU>
Subject: Re: stop breathin', breathin' for me now
In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19960409174411.25df3444@pop.slip.net> from "Steve Carll"
at Apr 9, 96 05:43:00 pm
Steve Carll wrote:
>
> At 02:29 PM 4/9/96 -0400, Chris S. wrote:
> > or that so and so is REALLY good in bed
> whose work simply doesn't, should it? (But since you brought it up, who IS
> really good in bed? Never mind, knowing can only torment me :-)
As in, so good that the QUALITY itself of the bed they give, not the
degree of one's attraction to them, makes them worthy of poetic favors?
I'm itchin to know.
"But a good mind does not a good fuck make." (A recent poetics noted).
--
dgolumbi@sas.upenn.edu
David Golumbia
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:53:57 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: seven tapes of ambiguity
what screws up ambiguity
(for instance the song Steve's quoting in his subject line
sounds really great until you figure out it's about tennis..)
is how quickly it slides into ordinary meaning
or you don't go back and reread where's waldo
--Jordn
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:13:12 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Kellogg <kellogg@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Poetic Briefs
In-Reply-To: <960409213546_267982683@mail02.mail.aol.com>
same same. please send poetic briefs to the address below.
Cheers,
David
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Kellogg Duke University
kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program
(919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708
FAX (919) 684-6277
There is some excitement in one corner,
but most of the ghosts are merely shaking their heads.
-- Thomas Kinsella
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:40:50 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Alexander <chax@MTN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Happy national poetry month
>So, like if I break out Von Hallberg's american poetry & culture will I find
>an answer to the question: What does which poetry have to do with whose idea
>of culture anymore...??
Here's somebody's minnesota-ish idea of culture, verbatim from flyer:
_________________________________________________________________
POETRY
ALIVE
at Mall of America
A Celebration of National Poetry Month
Friday, April 12th, 2:00 - 8:00 p.m.
Sears Court at Mall of America
Highlights Include
*A diverse collection of poets and performers will give staged poetry
performances, including a Cacophony Chorus of area high school students
called "Gen X-10," and jazz poet Debra Marquart with her band The Bone People.
*A giant-sized, movable version of the wildly popular "Original Magnetic
Poetry Kit"TM will be on hand for Mall visitors of all ages to create
enormous and ever-changing poems.
*Poetry Karaoke will feature local celebrities and Mall visitors reading
from a diverse selection of poems.
*Computer hook-ups will allow participants to contribute to a community poem
that will grow throughout the day, and to interact with poetry fans
nationwide through the Internet.
Performance Schedule for Poetry Alive!:
2:00 Mick Veck of the St. Paul Saints baseball team and poet Carol Connolly
2:30 Poetry Karaoke with local celebrities and mall visitors
4:00 Christopher Edwards interprets the work of Beat poet Bob Kaufman
4:30 Poet Diane Glancy
5:00 Poet Mary Moore Easter
5:30 Poets Jim Moore and Deborah Keenan
6:00 Gen X-10: A Cacophony Chorus of Twin Cities High School Students
7:00 Debra Marquart and the Bone People: Jazz Poetry
Poetry Alive! at Mall of America grew out of meetings sponsored by LitLink
Minnesota, a unique collective of literary organizations that works together
to create major educational and public awareness initiatives
POETRY ALIVE! Sponsors
Coffee House Press, Graywolf Press, The Loft, Milkweed Editions, Minnesota
Center for Book Arts, New Rivers Press, Original Magnetic Poetry Kit,
S.A.S.E.: The Write Place, Shout! Magazine, Writer's Voice Project of the
Metropolitan Minneapolis YMCA
_________________________________________________________________
No comment. Culture with a capital Q.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:05:37 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Emily Lloyd <emilyl@EROLS.COM>
Subject: Re: darkly wise
At 09:25 AM 4/10/96 EDT, Daniel Bouchard wrote:
>I've never come across em since.
like AT&T...You Will <snap!>
Thanks Daniel. That was darkly <something something>.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Emily Lloyd emilyl@erols.com
"It takes time to make queer people"--gertrude stein
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:21:42 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Bill Luoma <Maz881@AOL.COM>
Subject: Tim Davis Reading in NYC
Subj: Re: pardner
Date: Tue, Apr 9, 1996 5:13 PM EDT
From: nd@panix.com
X-From: nd@panix.com (New Directions)
To: Maz881@aol.com
TD RIDES...AHEM...READS AGAIN!!
THIS BLOODY FRIDAY, THE 12th
Segue Performance Space
303 E. 8th (betw. B & C)
7:30 PM
plus thirsty
love, timothymichael"phanerocodonic"davis
billiam, can you post this on the thinggy everyone reads and obeys?
love t
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:25:14 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: - Kim Tedrow <RoseRead@AOL.COM>
Subject: Culture with a "Q"
Charles Alexander writes:
>>>>>Here's somebody's minnesota-ish idea of culture, verbatim from flyer:
----snip-----
No comment. Culture with a capital Q.<<<<
Please explain "minnesota-ish" and "Q". I read it as non-complimentary.
First, Deborah Keenan, Jim Moore, Carol Connolly, and Diane Glancy are well
respected poets. The list of sponsors, including the Minnesota Center for the
Book Arts and Graywolf Press, is impressive.
Second, although I left Minnesota before the "Mall of America" was completed,
and have never been there, I can well bet that hundreds of people that would
*not* be inclined to seek out a poetry reading at a coffee house, University,
or night club are going to get a good dose of it at the "Mall of America"
that day. If the audience for poetry is broadened, _who_ loses?
Third and last, Poetry Karaoke sounds like *fun*, and a helluva lot more
palatable than the floor-shaking-beer-soaked-karaoke renditions of Beatles
songs sung in Vietnamese by my neighbors all weekend. (I think I'll head to
Radio Shack for my karaoke system this weekend!)
Minnesota-ish (whatever that means) still, altho in D.C.,
Kim
roseread@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:34:36 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Mark Wallace <mdw@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU>
Subject: DIU release
I hope some of you have seen the hilarious satire on the intentions of
the recent NYC Poetry Talks conference that was just released on Chris
Funkhouser's Description of Imaginary Universe's listserve.
It's an incredibly subtle move--now, the avant garde is free to
endlessly satirize its own intentions, while the rest of the world goes
about its business, completely oblivious to our existence. And rightly
so, since we're an amazing bunch of pompous windbags who have no business
getting involved in serious matters. Thank goodness someone finally is
speaking up about the incredible pointlessness of taking avant garde
poetry seriously. And thank god we realize now that there are so few of
us, since it saves us the trouble of thinking we might have some sort of
positive effect on anybody's life.
Even better, we can now all go to permanently closed parties where
we can each endless make fun of each other without having to worry that
other people will show up. That way, we don't have to worry about social
context at all, but can simply speak to those of us already in the know
about our own foolishness. After all, it's incredibly frustrating to
have to talk to people who haven't been wasting their time reading
Charles Olson. Maybe we can even have sexual
affairs with each other, and talk about them behind our own backs!
What I want is to be locked forever in a room (like in the
original Star Trek episode) with the writer of the DIU satire. The two
of us could undermine our own pretensions for all eternity, without fear of
intervention, or any stupid stuff about how to balance the need to
survive with the desire to behave ethically.
Here's an idea--let's go to Newt Gingrich's office and do a
sit-in protest where we'll prove to him the irrelevance of all literature
and humanistic activity, especially that of the avant garde. We could even
wear funny hats while we
mock ourselves! And maybe, while we're at it, we could get a few
Republicans to mock us too. Wouldn't that be really radical and
satirical? Wouldn't that really screw things up? We'll make plenty sure
that no one ever takes us seriously again, you can bet!
I feel so free.
Mark Wallace
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:40:05 PDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: chris daniels <kunos@LANMINDS.COM>
Subject: Caesura at copan
Caesura at copan
eighteen-rabbit
put the voynich-
worm in your brain
from too much kissing trepha dogs
comforted by pariahs
weeping you woke trephinated
in dark stone arms
curling round yggsdrasil's
foliaten hands to guide
sternufrage phaistoscion its warp through
to your radical head
2
werewarp hound's
distended muzzle
strangely
and the throated lungs
flap singed by shards of black fire
red pillar rising
from your spasmodic crown
3
o harrier of swifts!
4
you who built mountains
with brontother jetsam
in the mezhirist forest
smoke rears
from ichor-bowls
in the peak's gullet
where you dance
your swidden
point-a-flechette
pierced for tlalocuedjet
spewing venom
godbones' truth
speaking nothing
for jake berry
at the witz monster's mouth
***********************
komments, anyone?
must run to "woik"
th sun has jes pipped troo th kokoninan "winda"
"pottin" is such switt "sorra"
later
-------------------------------------
christopher daniels <kunos@lanminds.com> 4.10.96 8:34:20 am
q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they
said anything goes?"
--- charles wuorinen
a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow."
--- george clinton
snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa
voice: 510.524.5972
http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 10:47:59 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Poetry video
bob's and chris s.'s posts tweaked me into considering that there's a
language issue (and more than this, again) buried in this discussion of
poetry vs. performance that's mebbe worth pulling out some... and it has to
do with why, for example, whenever i try to 'explain' poetry to folks
who're used to using language in a more scholarly way (like, say, most
philosophers), i end up talking about the 'performative' aspects of poetic
language...
i mean, for many people, poetry as a language art is *already* a
performance... it's already, that is (and here i'm avoiding various
complications of varying aesthetics, or for that matter austin's remarks re
'performatory' utterances) *coming to you* as a poem, i.e., embodying a
subject-presence that's quite a bit different than, say, that of research
reports, or for that matter of most novels... and i don't mean at all to
privilege poetry here---just to try to get a hold of its---is it telos of
presence only? (no)---which tends methinks to complicate the subject(ivity)
inherent to such writing, as an 'act'... which is complicated further by
variations in language practice (dia or idiolectical) which presume more or
less upon various such presences, be they aural or what have you...
when poetry comes at us in-the-flesh, or in the representation (or as the
case may be, non-representation) of flesh (as in video), the performative
is incarnated a step further... and this is kind of interesting again from
the pov of what the invention of writing, as havelock put it, tended to
do---separate the "knower from the known," over and against oral culture,
say... which suggests perhaps that those of us keyed to the written
word---which itself glosses distinctions twixt pixel and print---value
performance in terms of---is it the control? or lack of same?---that
authorial 'absence' (death?) implies... in fact i would argue that pixel
reintroduces, as a result of literal and figurative connectivity with other
on(the)line bodies (that's you folks) a virtual presence... it's the
collective ghost in our machines (whatever the platform) that appears
whenever we boot up, b/c our word processors work side-by-side with our
network connections (not to mention the formal differences twixt pixel and,
say, ink, depending on your sensitivities)... and the resultant screen blur
blurs in fact even our literacies, b/c we can use, e.g., the 'talkier'
aspects of ascii to communicate such, uhm, sophisticated thoughts (see
footnote 2a, above)...
just thinkin aloud, is all...
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:46:21 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Daniel Bouchard <Daniel_Bouchard@HMCO.COM>
Subject: Re: DIU release
Mark Wallace wrote:
I hope some of you have seen the hilarious satire on the intentions of
the recent NYC Poetry Talks conference that was just released on Chris
Funkhouser's Description of Imaginary Universe's listserve.
<cut> we're an amazing bunch of pompous windbags
<cut> Thank goodness
<cut> And thank god
______________________
Mark,
Is this for real? Where does one find it?
daniel_bouchard@hmco.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:19:13 CST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Baratier <dave.baratier@MOSBY.COM>
Subject: oops
Availiable now from Pavement Saw Press
Oops by
Chris Stroffolino
Features poems which have appeared in Sulfur, Talisman, Lingo, TO,
Caliban, New American Writing, American Letters & Commentary and
others.
64 pages, perfect bound in attractive purple cover with smiling
picture of the author on the back.
The book is $6.95 including postage and handling.
Checks made out to Pavement Saw Press / 7 James Street / Scotia, NY
12302
Thanks
dave.baratier@mosby.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 12:19:26 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: seven tapes of ambiguity
but jordan, i thought you played tennis with ron padgett
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:32:59 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Douglas Messerli <djmess@SUNMOON.COM>
Subject: Re: New Sun & Moon Press titles
Dear Gwyn McVay,
You may order directly from our website:
www.sunmoon.com or through E-Mail.
We don't yet accept credit cards, so
if you order the Mathews, I'll send the
book and bill you.
Douglas Messerli
At 09:01 AM 3/25/96 +0000, you wrote:
>Dear Douglas,
>
>I'd love to order the Mathews--do you prefer to deal with e-people via
>credit card or check?
>
>Regards,
>
>Gwyn McVay, a big Sun &Moon fan
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:18:07 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: DIU release
well it seems to me, anyway, that satire works best when it's accomplished
with reform (at least) in mind... it's not that we (i mean all 130 of us,
or 400 of us, or whatever) don't have our shelleys, our gadflies... to say
so, as i see it, is to miss the point entirely... the problem right now is
the tendency to regard *any* agenda as inherently self-serving...
and this just ain't so... not unless you're ayn rand... which is not to say
that everybody doesn't *have* an agenda, but that there are those who would
like to make a positive contribution to something outside of themselves..
so my problem with the diu piece---and with the edgar allen poe pieces in
fact, and with some of the news blurbs that came out a year or two back on
this list---is not that they ask for a sense of humor (i hope to hell mine
has remained intact), but that they ask for a sense of cynicism.. which in
fact, right now, is all too ubiquitous... and i say this w/o any rancor,
and certainly not to demean in any way chris funkhouser or anybody else...
but it's the reason i stopped reading that piece in particular after about
the third para... and in all fairness to diu, the general drift of that
ezine would seem at times to be to indicate the relative futility of
various poetic agenda in the face of more global desperations... and yet in
doing so, it seems to me that diu occasionally merely adds to despair...
esp. wrt the political climate we're, many of us, experiencing...
so i have to observe with mark w., though mebbe i'm observing it a little
differently, that such pieces in fact ask me to consider only my own
hopelessness... as hacker culture would have it, a 'fuck me harder'
sentiment (sorry if i'm offending here, but it's an appropriate
reference)... and i see this not only as in part a response to academic job
woes, but a reflection of public helplessness... and i guess i'd rather be
working in a more constructively critical or creative mode, in my own
little semicircles (which overlap with this poetics list), to make a
different sort of contribution---which i trust is and is not a utopian
sentiment... but which is less a critique of the diu piece, perhaps, than
simply to say that i'm looking for other ways to provide for meaningful
critique...
best,
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 12:51:16 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Henry Gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Poetry video
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 10 Apr 1996 10:47:59 -0500 from
<amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU>
On Wed, 10 Apr 1996 10:47:59 -0500 Joe Amato said:
>do with why, for example, whenever i try to 'explain' poetry to folks
>who're used to using language in a more scholarly way (like, say, most
>philosophers), i end up talking about the 'performative' aspects of poetic
>language...
>i mean, for many people, poetry as a language art is *already* a
>performance... it's already, that is (and here i'm avoiding various
Barbara H. Smith's definition is still relevant: "poetry is the imitation
of a speech act"
- H. Gould
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:03:31 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michelle Roberts <meaghan@UTDALLAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: contrasimilacrum
In-Reply-To: <9603068288.AA828841180@smtp-gw.mosby.com>
On Sat, 6 Apr 1996, David Baratier wrote:
> Been off line for a bit, so ...
>
> As far as reading a poem or poet due to a book of criticism
> That's nice. Albiet rare. It's been my experience
> that recent criticism includes such a sparsity of quotes,
> such a poverty of experience to rely upon, only the barest minimum
> necessary to validate the particular critical lens.
> That has become the net value of poetry for most critics.
>
> I find a few mentions of a text hardly enough to pick it up, rather
> it's comparisons, mentions of the subject material, and the passion of
> another reader that lend my eye to any book's pages.
> Unfortunately the binary dicotomy of much of the criticism hinges on
> one strand:
>
> You either create the work or insult it.
>
David,
I really think it's too bad that criticism takes that turn, the turn
where it's getting too far away from the work considered, becomes too
self-referential or self-conscious of it's frame/lens/whatever. Now, I
realize that my phrase "too far away" is disgustingly vague, but I think
that criticism, like poetry or fiction or visual arts, goes through
periods or phases. I think that our current phase is one in which
criticism is looking more to philosophy than to poetry. I think that's
one source of the tension. The other, as Hank Lazer pointed out to me,
is academic -- in lots of schools CW and English are seperate departments
and they have to compete for funds, thus they bash each other. But this
gets bigger, I think that the culture of academe is one that operates
through contention, competition and general nastiness because as a
collective "we" don't seem to want imagine another "form of life" for
ourselves. And unfortunately, if you really think that one "either
creates work or insults it" then I suspect that there's too much poorly
rendered and poorly thought-out criticism. But there's a whole lot of
really bad poetry too. As far as I'm concerned, and I used to argue hard
with my grad-student-would-be-critic-non-poet friends, poetry and
criticism and philosophy and art and the "world" are all interdependent
at some level and feed each other over time. It may just be a matter of
personal temperament -- I tend to think that all tensions that share this
sort of "academic structure" and that therefore handicap productive,
fresh, interesting thought and practice are really very "MLA" in the
sense of being showy, distracting, and superficial. I'm indicting
persons here, so please don't read me that way, I'm indiciting the
practice of empty animosity.
Should I stop repeating myself?
Meaghan
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:10:08 CST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jeff Hansen <Jeff_Hansen@BLAKE.PVT.K12.MN.US>
Organization: The Blake School
Subject: Poetic briefs
I posted an ambiguous message a few days ago. I'm sorry. Poetic briefs is a
snail mail publication in the midst of a promotion. We are sending a copy to
anyone who would like to see what it's like. If you like it, you can
subscribe. We've been around since 1992, and we have published poetic theory,
manifestoes, and reviews. I've been told that some have tried to reach my
e-mail and been rebuffed. Either keep trying or send to Mark Wallace,
mdw@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu, and he'll forward to me.
Also, we are looking for articles of 1,000 words or fewer on the issue of
"vision" or on Alice Notely for issue 21. The deadline is June 5. Send
article by e-mail.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:24:35 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Alexander <chax@MTN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Culture with a "Q"
>Charles Alexander writes:
>
>>>>>>Here's somebody's minnesota-ish idea of culture, verbatim from flyer:
>
>----snip-----
>
>No comment. Culture with a capital Q.<<<<
>
>Please explain "minnesota-ish" and "Q". I read it as non-complimentary.
Q just because I take it to be curious, as the letter is, although I love
the letter. Minnesota-ish because it seems in keeping with the populist bent
in the state in a couple of ways, first that it's at the Mall of America,
which is about as populist as it gets. Also that the activities themselves
are certainly designed to reach/please as wide an audience as possible.
After living in Minnesota for almost three years, I am struck that to many
involved with arts organizations and philanthropy, the most important thing
about the arts seems to be the number of people they reach. And clearly that
is extremely important, although I wish it were mixed with an equal amount
of talk about the content of the art in a variety of ways. While I can go
along with making poetry into a mass cultural event (actually that sounds
like a very good idea), I do sometimes worry about the ways in which this
might happen. But I'm aware that such is my point of view, and I don't mean
to insult anyone else's.
And yes, the poets themselves are fine. I am particularly interested in
Diane Glancy's work. It's more the gigantic poetry kit & the karaoke which I
find somewhat overboard in terms of making poetry into a pop culture item
(and I like quite a lot of pop culture). I would probably prefer the karaoke
Beatles which you found unpalatable.
But you're right, Kim. If the audience for poetry is broadened, no one loses.
charles
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:44:08 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rod Smith <AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Deadly Virus !!!
This was sent to me by a friend I forwarded the warning to:
*********************************************
From the Data Fellows (http://www.datafellows.com) virus database (Data
Fellows is the company that distributes F-Prot Professional)
Computer Virus Information Pages
NAME: PKZ300
ALIAS: PKZIP300
This is not a virus but a trojan. Warnings about this trojan have been
exceptionally widespread and
have been circulated since early 1995.
This is a trojan, so it does not spread: it can not be considered a
realistic
threat. PKZ300 trojan is
not widespread but the warning is.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:51:03 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Christopher L. Filkins" <filch@POBOX.COM>
Subject: Deadly Virus!!!
Ron et all gang
It should be noted that pkzip has not been released above 200. Hence any
pkzip above that version is to be suspect.
christopher
>
>>Poetics gang,
>>
>>The following is an internal IBM communique about a virus (thus I would
>>presume this to be real and not a variation of the Good Times hoax).
>>
>>Forewarned is forearmed.
>>
>>Ron
>>
>>*** Forwarding note from RADFORD --RHQVM14 04/09/96 13:42 ***
>>To: TSS Service Planning - Raleigh
>>
>>From: B. L. Radford
>> Information Center Analyst
>> 8-571-5026 / (919) 461-5026
>>SUBJECT: Deadly Virus !!!
>>
>>FYI - be sure to read !!!
>>
>>From: R. L. Bond, Consultant Liaison
>> SystemView Information Bureau
>> Dept/H15 Bldg/503 Loc/B324
>>Subject: FYI - DO NOT DOWNLOAD PKZIP300
>>fyi
>>
>>
>> DO NOT DOWNLOAD ANY FILE NAMED PKZIP300 REGARDLESS OF THE
>> EXTENSION!!!
>>
>>
>>WARNING!!!!! Read the following and take note for those of you who
>>access
>>the web and ftp sites. . . BE WARE!!! Notify your friends and family
>>and
>>total strangers too!!! We don't want to deal with anything like this
>>what-so-ever!!!
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>Hi all,
>>We work closely with the military and received this message from a very
>>reliable source in DC this morning.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A NEW Trojan Horse Virus has emerged on the internet with the
>>name
>> PKZIP300.ZIP, so named as to give the impression that this
>>file is
>> a new version of the PKZIP software used to "ZIP" (compress)
>>files.
>>
>> DO NOT DOWNLOAD this file under any circumstances!!! If you
>>install
>> or expand this file, the virus WILL wipe your hard disk clean
>>and
>> affect modems at 14.4 and higher. This is an extremely
>>destructive
>> virus and there is NOT yet a way of cleaning up this one.
>>
>> REPEAT: DO NOT DOWNLOAD ANY FILE NAMED PKZIP300 REGARDLESS OF
>>THE
>> EXTENSION!!!
>>
>>Thanks,
>>John Scheible
>>scheible@vnet.ibm.com
>>Regards,
>>Bill
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 12:24:45 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Sheila E. Murphy" <semurphy@AZLINK.COM>
Subject: Re: Happy national poetry month
At 12:28 AM 4/10/96 -0400, you wrote:
>So, like if I break out Von Hallberg's american poetry & culture will I find
>an answer to the question: What does which poetry have to do with whose idea
>of culture anymore...??
What a question!!!!! We were just thinking/talking about you! Received a
most welcome mystery sort of call from Changing Hands Bookstore, letting us
know that something is arriving in the mail from you for "me birthday."
Bless you, bless you, dear one! You need not be doing these extra things.
Your presence itself is a gift.
Yours truly's off to take care of relevant and pressing errands relating to
work this afternoon. Been a busy morning, too.
Getting wildly busy. Presented for two straight days (well, two days,
anyhow!) for the University, to a group of state agency managers. This is
an ongoing effort/relationship I have with the University. A lovely and
rewarding one.
There are segments of "Letters to Unfinished J" to be entered into the
computer, too. THings done by hand.
How do you like this delicious modem stuff????
Love,
me
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 16:18:19 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Dan Machlin, Segue" <S29CC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Segue Space Reading This Friday
Just a reminder that the SEGUE PERFORMANCE SPACE,which has survived the out-of-
control party celebrating the New York City Poetry TAlks the other Saturday, wi
ll be featuring a wonderful poetic happening this Friday, 4/12/96 @ 7:30 p.m. s
harp. Poet TIM DAVIS will be reading (a noted photographer himself) in conjun
ction with JEFF PRANT, New York Postcard Magnate, who will be showing a series
of his new slide photographs and discoursing on them in that amazing radio joc
keyesque voice of his. SEGUE is once again located at 303 EAST 8th STREET (bet
w B&C) and refreshments will be provided. Admission Free!! Hope you can join
us.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 16:46:30 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Bernstein <bernstei@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Harper Conference Call
---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Announcing...
>
> --------------------------------------
> | Celebrating Harper: |
> | |
> | A Conference and Festival |
> | in honor of |
> | |
> | Michael S. Harper |
> | |
> | October 24-27, 1996 |
> | Bowdoin College, |
> | Brunswick, Maine |
> | |
> --------------------------------------
>
> Soul and Race
> are private dominions,
> memories and modal
> songs, a tenor blossoming
>
> from "Here Where Coltrane Is"
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Featured Presenters
>
>
> Seamus Heaney
>
> Russell Banks
>
> John Callahan
>
> John Wright
>
> a special musical performance by
> Don Byron
>
> and
>
> a concurrent exhibition
> at the Bowdoin College Museum of Art:
>
> THE STUDIO MUSEUM IN HARLEM:
> Twenty-Five Years of African-American Art
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Call for Papers
>
> We invite abstracts, panel proposals, or
> completed papers on any aspect
> of his life and work by June 30, 1996
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Registration information
>
> Elizabeth Muther
> Anthony Walton
> Department of English
> Bowdoin College
> Brunswick, ME 04011
> phone: (207) 725-3909
> fax: (207) 725-3387
> email: harpercf@polar.bowdoin.edu
> URL: http://www.bowdoin.edu/~harpercf/
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:02:02 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Culture with a "Q"
i must say, kim, with all due respect to your minnesota-ishness, i share
chax's dismay at what passes for culture in MN. it was a wrenching
transition for me, coming from boston, then san francisco, to the supposed
cultural mecca of the midwest to find that people from his own home state
didn't know bob dylan was jewish, and who thought everything from new york
was "pushy, loud, rude, acquisitive" (oops, they'd never use a polysyllabic
word like "acquisitive," they'd say "grabby,") --not too hard to see through
that set of adjectives as "too Jewish" "too ethnic," etc. --i'd get critiques
on student evaluation forms like: "she has opinions," in a context that made
it clear that that was a terrible thing to have. you yourself had to go
through the delightful u of mn bureaucracy where getting an education was an
uphill battle --meanwhile, minnesota imagines itself to care deeply about
education. etc., etc. point made. nuf sed.--xo, maria
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:29:13 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Curt Anderson <cander@MTN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Poetry video & Performance
At 12:24 AM 4/9/96 -0700, tosh berman wrote:
>One should look into "throwaway lyrics." Frank Black is really good at
>this type of writing,and so are any artist that has an active b-side
>career. They get loose, strange, and of course very odd. Down with
>Masterpieces and up with the odd b-side recording!
>
>tosh
>
Tosh,
If you want to hear great b-side "throwaway lyrics" try Guided by Voices.
I'm totally hooked on these guys. They're from Dayton, Ohio and apparently
record with cheap slightly out of tune instruments on a four track in
someone's basement. A CD typically boasts 20 to 24 songs, almost all
impossible to extract from your mind once you've heard them, and lyrics
like: "the ancient ideas are on fire, my love". How can you not like a band
with a song titles like "The Lord of Overstock" and "Man Called
Aerodynamics"? I may have to start a fan club.
Curt Anderson
Cander@mtn.org
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:49:08 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Alexander <chax@MTN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Culture with a "Q"
and to me, the Mall of America is so much about
buying/selling/marketing/advertising, in ways that are, to me, pretty
dehumanizing. working to create that mass market. and that poetry needs to
attach itself to this to reach that wide audience, I find sad.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 19:00:40 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: - Kim Tedrow <RoseRead@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Culture with a "Q"
Hmmmm, Maria, point well taken.
However, I knew Bob Dylan was Jewish (I partied at his old frat-SAM- in the
late seventies), the uphill battle at the U of MN for a single mother to get
an education is probably an uphill battle in every state in the nation, and
many of my fellow students, single mothers, poets and writers at Minnesota
hold, share, and vociferate strong opinions such as yours, and I noticed I'm
no more well received on the East Coast in the mainstream with my strong
opinions than you were in the U of M English Department. Perhaps we'll have
to share war stories some time, (I esp. with regard to the male
self-proclaimed feminists), but I'll bet that experience can be re-created in
any number of English Departments across the country--the point I'm trying to
make is that maybe there isn't such a thing as Minnesota-ishness. I just
didn't see the point of being snide about what a group of dedicated,
respectable people are trying to do to *celebrate* (gasp--have fun) poetry in
an otherwise hyper-commercial arena. NPR is reading poetry every night on
it's "All Things Considered" this month. There are readings galore in DC all
through April. So, someone decided to plop poetry into the MegaMall in
Minnesota--if I were there I might break my solemn vow never to set foot in
that mall to attend it. Who can possibly *lose*? (By the way, they're
trying to raise one of those damn malls in Silver Spring near where I live
and I am voting NO NO NO).
xo back -Kim
>>>>>i must say, kim, with all due respect to your minnesota-ishness, i share
chax's dismay at what passes for culture in MN. it was a wrenching
transition for me, coming from boston, then san francisco, to the supposed
cultural mecca of the midwest to find that people from his own home state
didn't know bob dylan was jewish, and who thought everything from new york
was "pushy, loud, rude, acquisitive" (oops, they'd never use a polysyllabic
word like "acquisitive," they'd say "grabby,") --not too hard to see through
that set of adjectives as "too Jewish" "too ethnic," etc. --i'd get critiques
on student evaluation forms like: "she has opinions," in a context that made
it clear that that was a terrible thing to have. you yourself had to go
through the delightful u of mn bureaucracy where getting an education was an
uphill battle --meanwhile, minnesota imagines itself to care deeply about
education. etc., etc. point made. nuf sed.--xo, maria<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 19:13:11 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: Re: Culture with a "Q"
In-Reply-To: <960410170201_510463515@emout10.mail.aol.com> from "Maria Damon"
at Apr 10, 96 05:02:02 pm
>
> i must say, kim, with all due respect to your minnesota-ishness, i share
> chax's dismay at what passes for culture in MN. it was a wrenching
> transition for me, coming from boston, then san francisco, to the supposed
> cultural mecca of the midwest to find that people from his own home state
> didn't know bob dylan was jewish, and who thought everything from new york
> was "pushy, loud, rude, acquisitive" (oops, they'd never use a polysyllabic
> word like "acquisitive," they'd say "grabby,") --not too hard to see through
> that set of adjectives as "too Jewish" "too ethnic," etc. --i'd get critiques
> on student evaluation forms like: "she has opinions," in a context that made
> it clear that that was a terrible thing to have. you yourself had to go
> through the delightful u of mn bureaucracy where getting an education was an
> uphill battle --meanwhile, minnesota imagines itself to care deeply about
> education. etc., etc. point made. nuf sed.--xo, maria
>
Hey, Maria, have you seen _Fargo_ yet?
Ho ho,
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 19:17:47 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Alan Sondheim <sondheim@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Poem
In-Reply-To: <POETICS%96041012552477@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Fictitious Clara
Clara fictitious, fictitious Clara, you are not my friend!
You do not exist, you have not written anything to be read with song!
HELP THE BURNED and wounded child,
The infant drowned or injured mother,
The open wide-eyed girl defiled,
The sister murdered by her brother,
The scalded boy, the father's hate,
The mother's knife and tortured skin,
The sex of death, the young girl's fate,
The battered boy, his life of sin,
The blinded babe, the woman's rage,
The body bruised with leather strap,
The mother old beyond her age,
The daughter's jeers, the father's slap.
You live in your big cars, fast cars.
You live in your white lanes, fast lanes.
Fictitious Clara, you are no longer part of me.
Fictitious Clara, I cast you out before you turn your eye on me.
Fictitious Clara, you have one eye, one leg, one arm, one eye.
Fictitious Clara, you have one eye.
Girls are wary when they walk down the alley and think of Rilke.
Wary girls carry volumes of Rilke's poems.
Riot girls have nothing to say to me.
I have nothing to say to riot girls.
Clara, you have betrayed me by your transparent skin.
You have betrayed yourself by wires running from the thin skull-threads.
What does it mean to have broken your connections?
What does it mean, to have broken your grammar?
Clara, fictitious Clara, you are not my friend!
You do not know me, and you have never known me!
You have not known the six seasons nor red moon doubled for my pleasure!
You have not come naked to my door, you have no body and no voice!
Clara, fictitious Clara, I am so alone!
Clara, fictitious Clara, you have no voice!
_________________________________________________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 16:49:23 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Christopher L. Filkins" <filch@POBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: Culture with a "Q"
Actually, (i just sent this same sentiment to Charles so please excuse the
redundancy)
the post concerning MN struck me as being applicable to anywhere USA. When
reading his post I was inserting all the various malls and various middle
amerika places i've ever been, lived in, read at, shat at, etc. and
actually it was quite pleasing.
It's all malls - whether you're refering to New York or New Mexico.
Minnesota doesn't have a lock on Minnesotaish behavior, I experience the
same thing here in LA where the Barnes & Nobles has Pound and a selection
of dead german and french symbolists as its come hithers for national
poetry month (not an actual live poet to be found - i hear they hide in the
bush during the daylight hours jules - well we'll just wait till dark when
they come out and then we'll shoot em).
Since Charles lives in MN and access to that great architectural wonder of
wonders it's appropriate that he speak to the events there. I think I
would be disapointed if in the name of being kind to a problematic stance -
the marketing of poetry to a pop audience - Charles had to post the event
in MN without any sort of nod to the difficulties inherent in any
popularization.
I only wish that those of us who live in the hinterlands had such wonderful
events to look forward to.
But I digress, i'll just go back to playing with my magnetic words on the
refrigerator.
christopher
>Hmmmm, Maria, point well taken.
>
>However, I knew Bob Dylan was Jewish (I partied at his old frat-SAM- in the
>late seventies), the uphill battle at the U of MN for a single mother to get
>an education is probably an uphill battle in every state in the nation, and
>many of my fellow students, single mothers, poets and writers at Minnesota
>hold, share, and vociferate strong opinions such as yours, and I noticed I'm
>no more well received on the East Coast in the mainstream with my strong
>opinions than you were in the U of M English Department. Perhaps we'll have
>to share war stories some time, (I esp. with regard to the male
>self-proclaimed feminists), but I'll bet that experience can be re-created in
>any number of English Departments across the country--the point I'm trying to
>make is that maybe there isn't such a thing as Minnesota-ishness. I just
>didn't see the point of being snide about what a group of dedicated,
>respectable people are trying to do to *celebrate* (gasp--have fun) poetry in
>an otherwise hyper-commercial arena. NPR is reading poetry every night on
>it's "All Things Considered" this month. There are readings galore in DC all
>through April. So, someone decided to plop poetry into the MegaMall in
>Minnesota--if I were there I might break my solemn vow never to set foot in
>that mall to attend it. Who can possibly *lose*? (By the way, they're
>trying to raise one of those damn malls in Silver Spring near where I live
>and I am voting NO NO NO).
>xo back -Kim
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 21:56:07 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Eryque Gleason <eryque@ACMENET.NET>
Subject: Re: Poetic Briefs
>Sane problem
i don't have a problem with my sanity, or lack thereof, but i'd like a copy too.
Eryque Gleason
325 Western Ave. Box 64
Albany, NY 12203
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 18:52:46 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Peter Quartermain <quarterm@UNIXG.UBC.CA>
Subject: Re: Poetic Briefs
I had the same problem as Rae, Hank, Carl, and who all else. Please send me
Poetic Briefs too.
Peter Quartermain
128 East 23rd Avenue
Vancouver
BC
Canada V5V 1X2
Thanks.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:49:55 GMT+1300
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Wystan Curnow <w.curnow@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland
Subject: Re: Poetry video
Comments: To: amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU
Hey Joe,
Is what you mean that plain folks have poetics, too?
That's all for now.
Wystan
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 20:26:44 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Thomas Bell <tbjn@WELL.COM>
Subject: Re: Culture with a "Q"
In-Reply-To: <v02130504ad9204025d0d@[198.147.97.102]>
What percentage of poets became interested in poetry by seeing mediocre
or even atrocious poetry in the hinterlands in the equivalent of the
Minnesota mall?
What percentage began by hearing or reading poetry in the latest in
venue in the poetry capital of Amerika?
I, for one, am old enough to admit seeing a Sandburg in the hinterlands.
i now am back spending most of my time in the hinterer lands so I may
be unique but I don't really think so.
tom
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 02:44:30 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Eryque Gleason <eryque@ACMENET.NET>
Subject: Re: Poetic briefs
Jeff Hansen wrote:
>I posted an ambiguous message a few days ago. I'm sorry.
don't apologize for ambiguity, i just love
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 02:23:30 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kenneth Sherwood <v001pxfu@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: politicing like a poet
Chris:
Politician, you don't sound that bad. In case you want to sometime
though, "Make no mistake about it" is a more stentorian phrasing.
From the Bush years, right around the time he'd synched up the
cadence with the hand gesture. How's that for a poetry slam;
say who's the ventriloquized poetry champ in Philly?
Ks
____________________________________________________________________________
Kenneth Sherwood | Dept English
v001pxfu@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu | 618 Clemens Hall
sherwood@acsu.buffalo.edu | SUNY @ Buffalo
|_______Buffalo, NY 14214___________
RIF/T mail: e-poetry@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu
Electronic Poetry Center (Web address): http://writing.upenn.edu/epc
_____________________________________________________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 23:28:14 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tenney Nathanson <tenney@AZSTARNET.COM>
Subject: can't help but how about
>Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:01:19 -0400
>From: Emily Lloyd <emilyl@EROLS.COM>
>Subject: darkly wise
>
>I remembered, in a weird flashbacky way, a line from the first poem that
>ever really got me...I was 5 or 6 and it was in some anthology of, I assume,
>dead white boys, and there was a line in it that went: "And if you be wise,
>be you darkly wise, darkly wise as a" <something something>...or something
>like that. At the time, I was so affected I tore it out of the library
>book, got in deep kimshi, etc...now I don't remember who wrote it. Does
>anyone recognize those lines? I've never come across them since. em
Can't help with this one. But it reminds me: I have vivid recollection,
from about age 7 or 8 or 9, of being at Eddie Dingilian's house (which you
can see from the #1 as it approaches Dykman St) and reading a really scary
Classic Comic: /The Man with the Thayed Hand/.
Thayed?
classic?
any clues?
Tenney
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 02:55:16 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kenneth Sherwood <v001pxfu@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: satire and cynical
Joe et al:
Haven't happened yet on most recent DIU, but am struck by the sense
(in relation to POE and Anti-Heg) of critique sliding into 'cynicism'.
Which is to say, I don't read these works as cynical at all. But
I'm hearing alarm bells to the tune of "don't be so negative" which,
if there's a anything any "we" needs lately its MORE of that. What
strikes me about poetry/literature's presence in culture-wide is that
only its pretty side gets shown. cf Bill Moyer's: "how did you feeling
when you wrote that poem, were you remembering your dead mother?" etc.
Looking forward to seeing USOP and hearing Linebreak etc. These are
valuable attempts to get poetry out of its crease. BUT given that it's
not in the limelight (Bob Hass excepted)--one valuable aspect of this
putatative outsideness is possiblity of critique. Perhaps the work of
Ginsberg, Baraka, Brathwaite et al has a more obviously engage' poetic
but c'mon. Were Rabelais, Cervantes, Loy, Swift, cynics?
Ks
____________________________________________________________________________
Kenneth Sherwood | Dept English
v001pxfu@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu | 618 Clemens Hall
sherwood@acsu.buffalo.edu | SUNY @ Buffalo
|_______Buffalo, NY 14214___________
RIF/T mail: e-poetry@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu
Electronic Poetry Center (Web address): http://writing.upenn.edu/epc
_____________________________________________________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 01:20:09 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: tosh berman <tosh@LOOP.COM>
Subject: Re: Poetry video & Performance
>>
>Tosh,
>
>If you want to hear great b-side "throwaway lyrics" try Guided by Voices.
>I'm totally hooked on these guys. They're from Dayton, Ohio and apparently
>record with cheap slightly out of tune instruments on a four track in
>someone's basement. A CD typically boasts 20 to 24 songs, almost all
>impossible to extract from your mind once you've heard them, and lyrics
>like: "the ancient ideas are on fire, my love". How can you not like a band
>with a song titles like "The Lord of Overstock" and "Man Called
>Aerodynamics"? I may have to start a fan club.
>Curt Anderson
>Cander@mtn.org
Go for it Curt! I will for sure give them a listen! Thank you,
tosh
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 02:21:13 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: mikl-em <mike@KID-LINEAR.TAYLOR.ORG>
Subject: Re: contrasimilacrum
Michelle,
> realize that my phrase "too far away" is disgustingly vague, but I think
sometimes 'too vague' or AWK-wordz is exactly-exactly and more of
accurate than the polysyllabidinal and over cool-inical,
that is it Municates : couldn't criticism try to approach poetry in
a poetry approach ? as poetry's a-prose philosophy
I think it is sobriety in prose in criticism witch trials me. (vials me?)
I can find mice elf in them idst off poems, if i could find a criticism
which casts an imperfect net over an imperfect net that is a poem then I
could find even more about the grounds they would mutual lie [also truth]
on then, ruther than this random bursts vs. pronouncements which is too
often the relation [and often with a negated or conversely flaunted lust of
the prosaic for the verse], um, that is that
I don't know that poets Know any more or know any More than Critics
and those in either camp who suggest such I tend to suspect the spikes
which hold their flap-tents down [by Jobe].
> Should I stop repeating myself?
neh.
[this language is like any other, arbitrary
and dying.]
alrite, this is it.
-----------------
michael "Raw Onions/Hot and/or Sweet Cherry
mcelligott Peppers/White American or Provolone Cheese"
mike@taylor.org --the Cheese Steak Shop takeout menu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 02:29:07 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Fwd: Re: Poetic Briefs
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All our problems should be sane, Tom. It would be a great world. I too
got a "bounce back" message, but my server (like the little engine that
could) promised to keep trying. I think maybe that Jeff's server has
been down over the weekend. Anyway, be sure to add me to that list:
Ron Silliman
262 Orchard
Paoli, PA 19301-1116
---------------------------------------------------------
Sane problem
Thomas Bell
2546 Hibbitts Rd.
Nashville, TN 37214
On Tue, 9 Apr 1996, Carl Lynden Peters wrote:
> >
> > I had the same problem as Rae. Please send me Poetics Briefs:
> >
> > Hank Lazer
> > 2945 N Hampton Dr
> > Tuscaloosa, AL 35406-2701
>
> ditto. -- i'd very much appreciate this, too:
>
> c. peters
> dept. of english
> simon fraser univ.
> burnaby, BC canada
> V5A 1S6
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 04:44:03 -0700
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From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Poetry City, April 11
Tonight at Poetry City
Thursday, April 11
Teachers & Writers Collaborative
5 Union Square West, 7th Floor
NYC
6:30 PM
Lewis Warsh
&
Yours truly
(we promise Culture with a Q)
Ron Silliman
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 07:54:38 EDT
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From: Henry Gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Culture with a "Q"
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:02:02 -0400 from
<MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
On Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:02:02 -0400 Maria Damon said:
>i must say, kim, with all due respect to your minnesota-ishness, i share
>chax's dismay at what passes for culture in MN. it was a wrenching
>transition for me, coming from boston, then san francisco, to the supposed
>cultural mecca of the midwest to find that people from his own home state
>didn't know bob dylan was jewish, and who thought everything from new york
>was "pushy, loud, rude, acquisitive" (oops, they'd never use a polysyllabic
This kind of stuff is nothing new to us transplanted midwesterners. We
hear cracks about the wasteland of the midwest at least once a week, if
not every day. I'm sorry, but this is cheap snobbery. From a Loyal Son
of Brainerd (& the other godforsaken benighted villes of the loon state)
- Henry Gould
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 08:48:00 -0400
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From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: contrasimilacrum
meaghan roberts and david baratier:
on t he sujbect of "criticism"/"creativity" --tho theoretically i strongly
believe that one can be primarily a "critic" and yet be one "creatively," as
is my (i hope) practice, i also had an interesting experience recently in
trying to switch from one mode to the other and back. i've been
participating in the range quabal (formerly renga cabal), writing
extemporaneous collaborative poems thru the e-mail. i was totally into it,
and then had to focus on writing a "critical" piece on Stein for modern
fiction studies. i found it a tormenting experience to have to construct a
coherent argument, etc., and plunged into deepest despair that is probably
more familiar to us than we like to let on ("my best work is behind me, i've
forgotten how to think, i'm a fraud, thank god i have tenure cuz i can't
produce anymore, uh-oh i'm living proof that the tenure system subsidizes the
braindead, nothing to live for, it's all over," etc). i forced a series of
paragraphs out. my favorite parts were the playful close readings of stein,
which i downgraded in my mind cuz everone knows close readiang is passe and
untheoretical, etc.. so. article finished, mailed in, appreciated by editor
(esp the close reading parts), and guess what, when i turn to the ranges,
they look again to me like a foreign element. "what did i ever see in these?
who did i think i was, contributing to these? i can't do this creaetaive
kinda stuff." granted, this self-talk is part of the process, my own
internalized split which i'm trying to dismantle or dissolve. but
phenomenologically it was interesting to find out how diff. these discourses
seem to be, despite my position to the contrary.
bests, maria
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 08:48:18 -0400
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From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Culture with a "Q"
mike boughn on fargo:
haven't seen it yet, but listened w/ great glee to an NPR interview w/ Coen
brothers in which the first shot of the movie was described as a "pure, flat
whiteness." uh-huh, i thought, and promptly put that detail into a paper i
was revising. also, the coen bros. grew up in st. louis park, a suburb of
mpls known locally as "st. jewish park," and i couldn't help but hear their
remarks about mn being a place where "everything's polite on the surface, but
underneath there's a seething something or other" as reflecting the
experience of anyone who's the least bit "different" --a favorite mn word
used, with halting, pejorative puzzlement to describe anything that has an
iota of vitality or distinguishability from the great white flatness. i
don't even mean eccentric. i mean dark-haired, or short, etc. i'm looking
forward to seeing the movie. don't mind me, folks. i really enjoy
criticizing minnesota. jack spicer was right: there is no magic in
minnesota.--md
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 08:48:25 -0400
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From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: DIU
hey chrissie, how come i didn't get a posting from DIU, which i always
mis-see as DUI as in driving under?
md
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 08:48:34 -0400
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From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Jewish Encyclopedia
hey everyone, i need to clarify a misunderstanding. i thought that the
encyc. of J-American poets and playwrights had decided not to cover stein and
antin, as i reported here a few weeks ago. well, i misunderstood their
message to me that they had "decided against stein and antin." they meant
that they had decided against assigning stein and antin to me, since richard
kostelanetz was already "doing" them. i thot it meant that they were not to
be included. wanted to clarify, since i don't want to be spreading false
info or misrepresenting others' efforts. i'm hypersensitive to these issues
these days after my experience w/ coffee house press. so, i'm "doing"
ginsberg.
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 08:49:46 -0400
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From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Poem
gee allan sondheim, i don't know what it means but i luv it.--md
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:59:55 EDT
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From: Henry Gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Culture with a "Q"
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 11 Apr 1996 08:48:18 -0400 from
<MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
On Thu, 11 Apr 1996 08:48:18 -0400 Maria Damon said:
>remarks about mn being a place where "everything's polite on the surface, but
>underneath there's a seething something or other" as reflecting the
>experience of anyone who's the least bit "different" --a favorite mn word
Yeah, why be polite. Let's just be up front and further the balkanization
of the universe. Have you ever read Rebecca West's travel book about the
Balkans (Black Lamb & Grey Falcon)? She critiques every
city and town in an extremely opinionated judgement moral/historical/
sociological/almost biological (unnerving, since it was the end
of the thirties) way - but she's consistent, incisive, deep, and she
critiques everybody (though she's especially tough on the Germans she
meets). And she is also in love with the place.
Why bring this up? Well, instead of giving the old Minnesota jive
why don't you tour the whole country? Evry place has its dominant
vices & pathetic problems. - Henry Gould
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:03:48 -0500
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From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: this week in poetry ny addendum
John Yau / Mitch Highfill
Sunday April 14
5 p.m, Biblios
____
Maria--you put the detail of nothing but flat whiteness onto a paper? a
piece of paper?
____
Chris--(nothing in that drawer). I don't play tennis, though David Dinkins
used to. I think Ron's sparring partners include Galway Kinnell, Geoff
Young, Chris Edgar, Curt Lamkin, Daniel Shapiro et alia.
____
Curt--somebody to talk to about a GbV fan club is Albert Mobilio, who may
or may not be lurking now. (Albert, if you're out there, I'd love to see
this Gary Burghoff piece everyone keeps telling me about. PS
Congratulations on your review in the Newsletter.)
____
Steve--who died and made the music of 1994 king? And for the other Steve,
does _The Hum Is Coming from Her_ really exist? No store in NY has heard of
it.
____
Jd
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:34:29 -0500
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From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Poetry video
wystan, yeah, i would say that ordinary folks have poetics... but i'm not
certain which of the four-gazillion of these posts you're responding to!...
in any case, what i'm saying is, ordinary or no, fact is that the first set
of language practices to get side-stepped in more pop culture venues tend
to be those that have to do with writing per se... whereas in the
humanities side of the academy, writing tends to rule... and i'd hate to
advocate a more peculiarly academic reality...
so when you make poetry a more public or publicity-laden act, folks tend to
come to those aspects of it that appeal to the aural or the visual (which
is fine in itself) while not necessarily knowing, or caring to know, about
many of the various writing traditions of this past, say, century (which is
not fine by itself)... there are other less visible practices that get
forgotten too, some having to do with performance art in general, but it
seems to me that writing can take a real beating when it 'competes with'
aural/visual form... i've seen this happen time and again... so i'm trying
to think through ways to retain an orientation toward such writing
traditions while holding onto the value of video etc... b/c its in this
coupling that i see the possibility for alternative practices, structures,
institutions...
still, some would see this perhaps as a desperate attempt to cling to
alphabetic technologies...
joe
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:34:35 -0500
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From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: satire and cynical
ken, dunno about rabelais, cervantes, loy and swift, though yes, i'm
certain there was at times a current of cynicism running through their
heads when they penned some of their stuff...
but in general, for me, there's a difference twixt satire---which in my
view has a moral basis---and cynicism... and i mean to indicate by
'cynicism' not the original greek version, and i understand that there's at
times a need for some cynicism too... that is, places and times for
cheering & sneering... but criticism does not methinks reduce to
cynicism...
in any case, if one hopes to make a positive change of any sort, in any
scene, then in my view one needs at least to be thinking in
ethico-moral-political terms... i hope this doesn't come off as sounding
itself quaylish---which such sentiments generally do... my comments about
diu, as much as i enjoy aspects of this latter, have primarily to do with
an implicit sense i get at times that someone is being one-upped...
ironically, i guess i wish that this were in fact more explicit... and
whereas you can one-up me till the cows come home (in minnesota or in
upstate new york) i yet question the value same has in communities that are
only too good at ripping each other (forgive me this male-ism, puh-leez)
new assholes...
which critique in general needs to be fully absorbed by those of us on who
see ourselves on the left side of things political... i mean, while we need
to be able to conduct (even harsh) self-critique (at ALL costs), this
doesn't necessarily translate to (i won't say ad hominem) a cynicism of
practice... what was it charles b. once quoted me by way of
gramsci?---"pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will"... and
pessimism, again, is not cynicism...
all best,
joe
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:28:58 -0500
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From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: satire and cynical
oh and i s'pose i should add that this criteek of mine re diu i'd be more
than willing to apply to mine own efforts three years back with nous
refuse...
i mean, simply to say that the innovation was the medium, and the voices
pulled together... and methinks this was a good thing, all said and done,
in the same way as diu (or poetics) is a good thing b/c it pulls together
(certainly not w/o criteek) different voices in this medium and provides
some glue w/solvent for wide(r) consideration...
so no (w)holier-than-thou stuff going down here, and i mean my remarks to
contribute, in fact (optimist that i hope to be), to an even better
glue/solvent... but as with nous, my sense is that we need to continue to
ask what we're doing with these our voice/voices (to paraphrase patricia
hill collins)...
joe
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:03:52 -0700
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From: "Jeffrey W. Timmons" <mnamna@IMAP1.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Culture with a "Q"
Comments: To: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To: <960411084817_511031515@emout08.mail.aol.com>
Maria,
What states _do_ have magic? I nominate Nebraska, strangely enough. And
I have a predisposition to Oregon. Living in Phoenix I can't speak for
Arizona, but I know that there is a spirituality _somewhere_ to be found
here. DC has some magic tucked away here in there in little
pockets--which I might disclose if prompted--but that may be my own
creation. Thinking of other states, and where there magic is. . . .
Jeffrey Timmons
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:55:04 CST
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From: Jeff Hansen <Jeff_Hansen@BLAKE.PVT.K12.MN.US>
Organization: The Blake School
Subject: Minnesota
This is to reply to my good friend Charles Alexander and to Maria Damon who
point out the cultural vapidity of Minnesota's Twin Cities, discussing, among
other things, an absurd poetry reading at the Mall of America. I sympathize
with their need to vent, but great things are happening here. A couple months
ago Mark Nowak-who is in the process of getting a new mag, "Cross-Cultural
Poetics," off the ground--organized a conference for micro presses. The Twin
Cities' major small presses --Milkweed, Coffee House, New Rivers-- did not
show up. But about thirty of us did. There is a wonderful new magazine
called Disilluisioned Guillotine -- don't know address-- another by the name
of Tinfish and a few that escape me. The journal Rag Mag continues to publish
beat style writing after twenty years strong years. A few miles up north in
Morris is Jonathan Brannen (jbrannen@infolink.morris.mn.us) who runs a
fantastic chapbook series entitled Standing Stones. I was informally
associated with LEAVE books of Buffalo in its infancy, and Brannen's project
is every bit as good. The books are well produced and carefully chosen. In
addition, Gary Sullivan's fine Detour Press just came out with a stupendous
book of experimental stories entitled Star Fiction by Minneapolis writer Eric
Berglund (sp?), who is also starting an audio press that is soon to release
Steve McCaffery's Panopticon on audio cassette. Plus Poetic Briefs, Charles'
very own Chax, Maria Damon's fine book of criticism on "outsider" poetries
etc.
Yes, the Mall of America scene is a joke from our perspective. (Although I do
agree with those who say, "What's the harm?") But we have so much good coming
out of here. Could an innovative poetry scene be waiting to happen in the
midst of Bly territory? I think so. All we need are a consistent reading
series (which Nowak is starting to supply) and some organized energy.
Happy in the so-called hinterlands,
Jeff Hansen
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 10:28:55 -1000
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From: Susan Schultz <sschultz@HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <657882.ensmtp@blake.pvt.k12.mn.us>
Dear Jeff--Thanks for including TINFISH among new Minnesota journals! I
was in Minnesota once on a canoe trip, which I quite enjoyed--except for
the mosquitos and foot rot. But the journal comes out of Honolulu (#2 just
launched from the EPC, by the way). The graphic designer, Suzanne Kosanke,
is very much a Minnesotan, however, so the mistake is apt.
Susan
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:35:57 -0500
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From: Charles Alexander <chax@MTN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Minnesota
as to jeff hansen's words about what's very good in minnesota
I have to say, it's true what he said
and jeff's energy here is most welcome
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:38:00 -0400
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From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Minnesota
Dear jeff hansen---
Well, sounds that more is happening there than here in your old
stomping ground (certainly in terms of presses). Is there really
a magazine called TINFISH there? Do they know about Susan "The
Tribe Of John" Schultz's magazine of the same name???????
And what ever happened to Gary Sullivan?
When he signed off the list, there was rumours he was going to leave
MN. Also, question for Maria D., are you returning to MN? I had
the impression that you had a tenure track position there, and were
just a visiting prof. or something on the cape this year....
just curious. Love to all, cs
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:46:20 -0400
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From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: symmetry
This is for Laura Moriarty--
I received a note from your address about my comments on your book,
and I tried to respond but ended up accidentally deleting your message.
Could you please backchannel me your address (though you don't have to
repeat the message---even though I'm really upset about having lost it)...
Thank you, Chris Stroffolino
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:04:14 -0400
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From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Culture with a "Q"
henry gould --look, i'm not a cheap snob. i went to mpls expecting to love
it, populism, culture, etc.; these are not pre-judices in the sense of my
having formed an opinion a priori. it never would have occurred to me to
poke fun at the midwest until i went thru hell there. i've met a lot ofcool
people FROM the midwest, but they're not there anymore. i haven't met that
many cool people IN the midwest. or rather, that's not true, there are some
interesting people, but ther isn't the kind of atmosphere i'm used to
--there's not a critical mass of "my" kind of people sufficient to affect the
culture at large. i'm not interested in being ghetto-ized. there are plenty
of alternative cultures in mn, but they are put on the defensive and develop
a counter-productive us/them thing, which often devolves into pointless
extremism just to combat the everyday lethargy. i understand it to some
degree --life is hard there, it's not an affluent state, it's austere as
hell, and people want to expend the minimum energy on "superfluities" like
enjoyment, expressiveness, shallow things like "lifestyle," etc. but after
having worked very hard in california to increase my tolerance for pleasure,
self-expression, belief in my capabilities, etc., I experienced mn as cruel.
md
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:18:25 -0400
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From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Minnesota
jeff hansen --i agree that exciting things are starting to happen. ask gary
sulllivan how he feels about mn. ask chax. ask mark nowak. they're all
transplants, and they have worked hard for several years, getting
discouraged, etc. Now it looks like something real might start to happen,
cuz there's a critical mass of "us." i personally have no problem w/ some of
the populist lit scene in MN. sase is okay, and the loft, tho' it fairly
drips w/ righteous whitebread piety, has potential (tho they've always given
me the cold shoulder when i've tried to network.) i'm not crazy 'bout the
Mall, but have no trouble, in principle, w/ the idea of a populist,
multicultural (which in fact in mn is often an oxymoron) lit scene, as must
be obvious from my posts and my tastes. but for me, in an iron-clad,
tradition-bound university english department, i never knew about the
alternative lit scene here until charles bernstein put me on the poetix list.
i met nowak cuz he reviewed my book for "skyway news", a business community
rag, and called me up. part of the problem is that, being affiliated w/ the
U, i've been shunned, until recently, by the locals who perceive the U as
"elitist" (would that it were more so); at the same time, i definitely don't
fit in to the university's --and esp. my dept's --intellectual conservatism.
and most important, even when and if a strong alternative lit scene
devleops, i just don't fit in to the midwest. sorry. i guess it;s me. i LIKE
to hear different languages when i walk down the street. I LIKE seeing
people confront each other over parking spaces --not violently, but with
colorful invective. I LIKE being able to say "acquisitive" instead of
"grabby" when I feel like it, and not have eyebrows raised and a subtle
ostracism take people away from me. i'm not exclusively a "high culture"
type person, so it's not that there aren't chamber orchestras --there are
plenty of those. i think you get the picture. but i must say, i'm heartened
by developments in my absense, both in the local scene and in my dept. Now
as long as the Univ doesn't abolish tenure, as it would like to...and as long
as we import an ocean, and about half a million more new yorkers and
californians, i'll be ahppy as a clam. actually, i adore my apartment.
maria d
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:19:03 -0400
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From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: this week in poetry ny addendum
jordan, no , not onto a piece of paper, but that too, into a paper. ie i
further defiled its flat whiteness by writing about flat whiteness.--md
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:33:35 -0500
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From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: flat night
Okay then!
(I was afraid you were going French, or Elizabeth Bishop or something)
--Jd
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:20:59 -0500
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From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU>
Subject: regional differences...
well you can argue where's best to be till (again) the cows come home
(again, whether in upstate ny, minnesota, or---)
i'm from syracuse (ny) originally, or more precisely, the liverpool suburb
(though my dad was born & raised in the city)... and after 29 years in a
row in that city, whatever fondness i have for it will not, methinks,
induce me to return... that fucking climate'll drive you NUTS... i'm sure
in fact it affects one's mind (ergo, moi)... but in any case, i hail from
there and feel somewhat entitled to pass judgment so (and after all, many
of my buds stayed)... and yknow, i *know* what the best aspects of the
place tend to be... and feel quite safe in characterizing the surrounding
rural region as tres redneck (and tres repub)... and the area itself, up
till about a decade back, as revealing a very much blue-collar working
class base (which my folks were)... though there are signs of wanting (and
having) to change these days...
but of course there's nice folks out in the sticks, too (having worked for
over four years in fulton ny, to the north mebbe 25 miles), and in fact my
suburban upbringing was a quasi-rural upbringing, at least by *chicago*
suburb standards...
so there's a rural/urban/suburban thang goin on here...
i detest the racial segregration and economic disparities here in
chicago... and i generally attribute a midwestern, even southern
complacency to the---well, what strikes me as the complacency re same...
albeit chicago has no special status when it comes to poverty or racism...
still, for me, the midwest is quiet when i'm noisy, and noisy when i want
it to be quiet... quietly macho, sorta... so neither chicago nor
champaign-urbana cuts it for me... though at least i could see the stars in
the evening sky in central illinois... but the lack of hills---
what i'm struggling for here is a sense that regional differences are so
complex, and so bound up with what we, each of us, know (by which i don't
mean knowledge per se)... idaho, where my wife kass fleisher taught for two
years, is absolutely goddamn beautiful... but the mormon presence there is
a problem---for us... which is not to say there're no nice mormons... only
that the degree of saturation of same, in conjunction with what kass likes
to call 'the unbearable whiteness of being,' will drive you NUTS (i'm
presuming on y'all, i know---so those of you in the intermountain west,
please feel free to rush to its defense... but none a you 'salt city'
folks---that's *syracuse's* nickname---oughtta try arguing with me bout
*that* place, or----)
i'm sure there're healthy things goin on in the state of minnesota, as
there are in the state of idaho... and that white supremacist groups are
making more headway, according to npr (according to ?), in pennsylvania
than anywhere else in the states oughtta teach us "easterners" a thing or
two about pointing (if not goin) west...
personally, i prefer a smaller urban environs, nice country, HILLS fer
chrissakes etc... where was it i read that most americans would like their
front yards to open to a busy city street, and their backyards to open to
an alpine meadow?... or some such... but already this is a class-based,
property-owing assertion...
here's to the best of all worlds, g'luck in finding same///
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:39:00 PDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steve Carll <sjcarll@SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: contrasimilacrum
"Philosophy finds itself, *rediscovers* itself, in the vicinity of the
poetic, indeed of literature. It finds itself there, for the indecision of
the limit is perhaps what most provokes it to thought. It finds itself
there, it does not necessarily lose itself there as those who believe, in
their tranquil credulity, who believe that they know where this limit is
situated and timorously keep within it, ingenuously, although without
innocence, stripped of what one must call the *philosophical experience*: a
certain questioning crossing of limits, unsureness as to the border of the
philosophical field--and above all the *experience of language*, an
experience always as poetic, or literary, as it is philosophical."
--Jacques Derrida, *Shibboleth For Paul Celan*
When a poem traces a thought that arises and finds its source in the work of
another poet, no one seems to have a problem when the creative process
causes a move away from the source material off on a tangent that has to do
with what we might call the poet's "poetic lens". Why then is there such
offense taken when a work of criticism does the same thing due to the
writer's "critical lens", assuming of course (and perhaps hastily on my
part) that one agrees with Derrida that the experience of language is
equally poetic and philosophical?
Steve
At 01:03 PM 4/10/96 -0500, Meaghan wrote:
>On Sat, 6 Apr 1996, David Baratier wrote:
>
>> Been off line for a bit, so ...
>>
>> As far as reading a poem or poet due to a book of criticism
>> That's nice. Albiet rare. It's been my experience
>> that recent criticism includes such a sparsity of quotes,
>> such a poverty of experience to rely upon, only the barest minimum
>> necessary to validate the particular critical lens.
>> That has become the net value of poetry for most critics.
>>
>> I find a few mentions of a text hardly enough to pick it up, rather
>> it's comparisons, mentions of the subject material, and the passion of
>> another reader that lend my eye to any book's pages.
>> Unfortunately the binary dicotomy of much of the criticism hinges on
>> one strand:
>>
>> You either create the work or insult it.
>>
>David,
>
>I really think it's too bad that criticism takes that turn, the turn
>where it's getting too far away from the work considered, becomes too
>self-referential or self-conscious of it's frame/lens/whatever. Now, I
>realize that my phrase "too far away" is disgustingly vague, but I think
>that criticism, like poetry or fiction or visual arts, goes through
>periods or phases. I think that our current phase is one in which
>criticism is looking more to philosophy than to poetry. I think that's
>one source of the tension. The other, as Hank Lazer pointed out to me,
>is academic -- in lots of schools CW and English are seperate departments
>and they have to compete for funds, thus they bash each other. But this
>gets bigger, I think that the culture of academe is one that operates
>through contention, competition and general nastiness because as a
>collective "we" don't seem to want imagine another "form of life" for
>ourselves. And unfortunately, if you really think that one "either
>creates work or insults it" then I suspect that there's too much poorly
>rendered and poorly thought-out criticism. But there's a whole lot of
>really bad poetry too. As far as I'm concerned, and I used to argue hard
>with my grad-student-would-be-critic-non-poet friends, poetry and
>criticism and philosophy and art and the "world" are all interdependent
>at some level and feed each other over time. It may just be a matter of
>personal temperament -- I tend to think that all tensions that share this
>sort of "academic structure" and that therefore handicap productive,
>fresh, interesting thought and practice are really very "MLA" in the
>sense of being showy, distracting, and superficial. I'm indicting
>persons here, so please don't read me that way, I'm indiciting the
>practice of empty animosity.
>
>Should I stop repeating myself?
>
>Meaghan
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:42:16 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Minnesota
chris s, i will be returning to the pure flat whiteness, can i get a witness.
in early july. i've been there 7 years, so these are not superficial
impressions of a tourist. bests, maria d
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:39:00 PDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steve Carll <sjcarll@SLIP.NET>
Subject: Tennis With/out A Net, Anyone?
Chris:
The question of hierarchies can of course be linked to questions of taste.
The more firmly we hold onto taste and prevent it from changing, the more
closely related to hierarchy it is. Acknowledging that our taste
changes--that, to the extent all of us have to "dwell in possibility",
different phenomena "out in the world" resonate differently with our
ever-changing moods (to paraphrase a great Style Council song) at different
times (a process which is NOT ARBITRARY)--is I think an important step in,
maybe not forever dismantling an aesthetic hierarchy (maybe that would be
too optimistic), but maybe creating a kind of hierarchy which is itself more
organic, in which any given phenomenon really does have a chance to command
our attention and be allowed to resonate for a time and leave whatever
residue we allow to accumulate. I fully agree with you about democracy
really being about what has moved "us"--but how big that "us" is is the
historical failure of democracy (it hasn't ever really gotten big enough,
right now in USA it's growing smaller every hour). What moves "us" straight
white American males may be kind of interesting anthropologically, but that
means that what's really crucial is what moves "us" human beings, of which
straight white males are only a local subset to be invoked for descriptive
purposes only.
Steve
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:39:00 PDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steve Carll <sjcarll@SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: seven tapes of ambiguity
At 09:53 AM 4/10/96 -0500, you wrote:
>what screws up ambiguity
>(for instance the song Steve's quoting in his subject line
>sounds really great until you figure out it's about tennis..)
>is how quickly it slides into ordinary meaning
>or you don't go back and reread where's waldo
>--Jordn
I still think that song sounds great. But this is something to think about.
But lots of kids reread Where's Waldo, don't they? And isn't it because
they forget where Waldo was?
Which makes me realize that there's some ambiguities that slide into
EXTRAordinary meaning. Like the line in REM's "Harborcoat": "They shifted
the statues for harboring ghosts", or Celan's:
THE TRUMPET PART
deep in the glowing
lacuna
at lamp height
in the time hole:
listen your way in
with your mouth.
Steve
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:26:05 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Keith Tuma <KWTUMA@MIAMIU.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: regional differences...
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:20:59 -0500 from
<amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU>
Well Joe says
"Well you can argue where's best to be till (again) the cows come home. . ."
which reminded me that an Irish friend told me recently that these days the
Irish are making a killing selling THEIR beef. . . .
renga assignment, advanced poetry workshop: begin "Irish beef is better beef"
and on another note, Amiri Baraka once looked sideways at me and said--don't
know if it was his--"Cynicism's the playground of the middle class."
setting sail for lurkerdom,
kt
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 19:03:21 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Loss Glazier <lolpoet@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Re: DIU release
For those who are interested, these items are at the EPC:
the DIU issue is located at:
http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/ezines/diu/diu34
Mark Wallace's essay is at:
http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/wallace
--Loss
Note: Maria, DIU is now mailed via a listserv and you can subscribe. (Though
it's always instantly (or nearly instantly) available on the EPC) Info is at:
http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/ezines/diu/diulist.html
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:02:00 PDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steve Carll <sjcarll@SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: Culture with a "Q"
Charles Alexander writes:
> It's more the gigantic poetry kit & the karaoke which I
>find somewhat overboard in terms of making poetry into a pop culture item
>(and I like quite a lot of pop culture). I would probably prefer the karaoke
>Beatles which you found unpalatable.
Oh, I don't know...they had one at the Seattle Art Museum when I visited
recently to see the *In The American Grain* exhibit (featuring Georgia
O'Keefe, Alfred Steiglitz, Marsden Hartley, and other members of their
circle whose names escape me but whose art was just as, if not occasionally
more, fascinating), and John Olson and I had a great time rearranging the
words, although we were frustrated by the dearth of "weird" words (lozenge,
aporia, cranny, you get the idea) and were tempted to go create our own and
sneak them back in someday.
Steve
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:01:21 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: FUNKHOUSER CHRISTOPH <cf2785@CSC.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: DIU piece
Mark,
Really, there is little subtlety in the recent imaginary universe
(broadcast). Definitely Nothing_personal_against you, though. To suspend
(as opposed to enacting) self-reflexive scrutiny of ourselves and our
texts is proper, or something? What sort of decorum does this "avant
garde" require anyway? Is it possible your "woof" might need (or at
least make use of) "our" warp (in cookieland)? But, what I really want
to know is, What makes you think you aren't already locked in a
room forever with the author of the diu piece?
2ndly, Joe: diu, the ahp, Edgar Allen Poe--I'm not sure this stuff
emanates from cynicism. Poe isn't writing satire, but literary criticism
(read it as exaggeration if that makes y'all feel better, but it ain't).
& he's not cynical, but gothic. "He"'s afraid of being buried alive, &
wants to make sure the coffin is in the ground while he himself stands
in the sunlight!
All for now. Out here learning & listening so "fire away" (aye!
Pat Benatar finally makes it to POETICS),
Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 20:06:27 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Curt Anderson <cander@MTN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Minnesota
As a fellow transplant to Minnesota, I think I should probably put my two
cents in. I agree with the accessment that, although Minnesota is a pretty
pale light in the cultural sense, it really isn't much different than
anywhere else. As a native San Franciscan, I moved away partly to get away
from the incessent provincialism, the "aren't we the greatest" attitude.
There's lots of room for improvement, no doubt, everywhere. Maybe the
difference is that in a city like New York or San Francisco you can find
enough like-minded people to buffer you from the bozos.
As for inquiries about Gary Sullivan, he's off-line and apparently
readjusted to reality. There is talk of moving back to SF in the fall. I
think some of you (Charles and Jeffrey) do his partner Marta Deike a
disservice by neglecting to note that both she and Gary do Detour Press,
which I have been loosely associated with as the editor of a little
newsletter called Exile. Finally, as someone who came out here expecting to
find an experimental writing or quartblatz community and instead found a
roaring silence, I think the really interesting discovery is that community
may not have as much to do with geography as technology -- this thing here.
Sadly in St. Paul,
Curt Anderson (that's John Smith in Swedish)
Curt Anderson
Cander@mtn.org
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 20:11:09 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Alexander <chax@MTN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Minnesota
>
>...and as long
>as we import an ocean, and about half a million more new yorkers and
>californians, i'll be ahppy as a clam. actually, i adore my apartment.
>maria d
and may I request some mountains and some desert.
sorry, i know i ask for the moon
but some things one just needs . . .
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:24:47 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Eryque Gleason <eryque@ACMENET.NET>
Subject: Re: Jewish Encyclopedia
>so, i'm "doing" ginsberg.
but maria, i heard he prefers men!
eryque
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 20:25:05 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Nappy Hational Poetry Month
In-Reply-To: <199604110424.AAA11622@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
Does anybody on this list live in or near Boulder, Colordo? Will be
spending some considerable time there late Summer thru Fall, & need some
advice -- Haven't been there since 1963!
& that Steel Pulse album, by the way, is a killer -- Listen to TRUE
DEMOCRACY -- one of their best
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 23:32:58 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Minnesota
Maria---I was not accusing you of superficial impressions of a tourist...
In fact, the way you describe Minnesota sounds quite a bit like Albany.
I wish the big city colleges weren't so damn uptight, but, alas....
cs
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 23:52:57 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tennis With/out A Net, Anyone?
Dear Steve---
So, white straight male #1 is more like white straight male #2 than
either of them are to black bi female #1.....
the implication that black can not MOVE (or COMMAND the attention)
of white...is that what you're saying? Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 01:21:48 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: William R Howe <howe@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Minnesota
jeff the question in some respects is not nec weather there is a possibility
for an avant whatsit in oh vader a tive poetics to congeal underneath the
bly blindness but rather within the context convexness of middle amtrak hinter
lands it is possible to perform any transfiguration of culture whatsoever
i recently was asked to read in my home town of lubbock tx (which in itself was
rather wierd) and was amazed by the interest i was shown in my oddness but i am
not at all convinced that poetry for the mass micky-d mall kulturni allows us
(as eno elevators) any kind of voice what hinterlanders see are the blynders and
not the <<underground>> if only because of their true faith in the market and
what the mall represents (arrival) do you look behind the toilet in a rfast food
feeding traugh to see if it is clean
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:09:18 -1000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: (Fwd) Mumia alert (fwd)
>I just got a call from Dr. Mark McClain Taylor, founding member of
Academics for Mumia Abu-Jamal. He is in Harrisburg with hundreds of
supporters of Mumia Abu-Jamal, including foreign dignitaries from France
and other countries. They are attempting to deliver a petition with
60,000 signatures, collected from France to Governor Ridge.
>THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE REFUSES TO ACCEPT THE PETITIONS ... Only sending
out security personnel. Meanwhile, the foreign dignitaries and other
Mumia supporters are holding their ground and refuse to leave.
>The situation is very tense and an international incident is in the
making. Please forward this message as far and wide as possible. Please
forward it to news sources and to as many distribution lists as possible.
Please also, call/fax Governor Ridge's office and demand that the petition
be accepted.
>Voice: 717-787-2500 Fax 727-772-8284
>This is a public service announcement, courtesy of Bob Witanek, moderator
of nj-speakout@igc.apc.org , pol-abuse@igc.apc.org and one of the
coordinators of 1000 VOICES AGAINST THE NJ DEATH PENALTY April 20 march
and rally at NJ State Prison for the NJ Coalition to Abolish the Death
Penalty. > >Bob Witanek
------end----------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
In protest of the censorship of the Internet by the United States
Government I am including the words "fuck you" in my .sig file and will
include the words "fuck you" in all my letters and articles on the
Internet. For more information see the Electronic Frontier
Foundation's web page at http:\\www.eff.org\.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 07:51:56 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Henry Gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Culture with a "Q"
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:04:14 -0400 from
<MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
On Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:04:14 -0400 Maria Damon said:
>hell, and people want to expend the minimum energy on "superfluities" like
>enjoyment, expressiveness, shallow things like "lifestyle," etc. but after
>having worked very hard in california to increase my tolerance for pleasure,
>self-expression, belief in my capabilities, etc., I experienced mn as cruel.
I'm sorry I was cruel in my response. I guess I was having a bad day
& it brought out the snarl. Some of the things you said sounded like
things I'd heard (a lot) before, and what seemed your cliches collided
with my nostalgia. It's amazing how diverse perceptions can be. I live
in RI, whose economy is much more scrawny & austere than MN, despite
the beaches & all. When I go back to MN, it seems like a place where
people understand "the good life" - and the problem is not austerity
& cruelty but complacency & caution. It's not that they don't like
pleasure & expression - it's that they're idea of these things is
maybe different from yours? Pleasure & expression are all "up at the
lake."
I hope you'll accept my apologies for the shrill loon honk. - H. Gould
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:12:58 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Henry Gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: DIU piece
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:01:21 -0400 from
<cf2785@CSC.ALBANY.EDU>
On Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:01:21 -0400 FUNKHOUSER CHRISTOPH said:
> 2ndly, Joe: diu, the ahp, Edgar Allen Poe--I'm not sure this stuff
> emanates from cynicism. Poe isn't writing satire, but literary criticism
> (read it as exaggeration if that makes y'all feel better, but it ain't).
One motive for the Poe disguise might be to protect Poe's freedom to
be as impartial and objective as possible in a very small poetry village.
In a way it's kind of a power play, but s/he plays a good act! (though
sometimes a bit picayune(did I spell that right?) & petty. But the
whole idea of Poe's ghost setting sepulchral standards for "verse"
in 1996 is great. - H. Gould
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 07:54:19 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: DIU piece
chris, it's not quite fair for me simply to slam diu w/o giving some
indication that i like it, of what i like... i *do* like the odd blend of
extracts from hither & thither, the music pics, the idea that it's being
distributed for free to so many folks... it's a provocative zine, in part
b/c it doesn't appear to be taking one side...
but what i find mself resisting is perhaps most evident in the poe
pieces... they're not quite 'gothic,' not least b/c that term can't simply
be appropriated from some past presumed moment and set down in mid-90s
american electronic culture w/o some interesting if not altogether
successful deformations... which is evident in all modern and contemporary
attempts at 'gothic' work (southern, american, etc)... i mean, what sort of
'gothic' do we have *here*?...
for one, the poe pieces seem to be distinctively male, or at least
male-identified... yeah, poe's a male, but this isn't quite what i mean...
what i mean is that by conducting critical scrutiny through an---well,
let's say an 1850 stylistic lens, one of the first things to go out the
window is the sense that there's been a transformation in women's roles...
however clever or self-modulated, poe passes judgment with an incredibly
omniscient 'voice,' with little concern for other-ness... such wit, for
example, generally doesn't compensate for race considerations, at least not
as we are accustomed to seeing same displayed... which is where the remarks
poe makes as to physical (un)attractiveness leave me feeling
uncomfortable... which seems, at least, to seep over (in tone?---not quite
sure) into the various "taste"-driven evaluations of a given poet's work...
in other words, i get this feeling that poe is a device/persona that
effects, in addition to some perceptive critique, a reintroduction of some
of the less savory aspects of 19th discourse into the current scene, w/o
always taking responsibility for the resulting complications... "but this
is poe, he's gothic" etc. strike me as a---well, to borrow from past
parlance, chris, as a bit of a cop-out... and i know you well enuf to know
this isn't what you intend...
this is too too harsh, chris... i know it takes a lot of effort to put
together and distribute diu... wish i could find a nicer way of putting
things---my apologies, and i hope again i'm not sounding like a stuffy
bastard in posting this... after all, i'm not being very precise here
mself, only giving you my residual impressions of a number of diu's---at a
distance, as it were... so let's say, as i said before, and if you'll
permit me the conceit, that this is meant to help make diu a better zine...
one more thought: if you and i had to dance through any additional
personae to understand each other here---you playing 'poe' and me my
erstwhile 'tomato'---we'd probably find it that much more difficult to
reach any sort of understanding... and this latter is necessary methinks
when dealing with public remarks that can *hurt*, regardless one's sense of
humor...
thanx for listening...
all best//
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:50:09 CST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Baratier <dave.baratier@MOSBY.COM>
Subject: poetics briefs
Hey Jefferson: Could you send an issue.
David Baratier
716 Pine Street
Philadelphia, PA 19106
Haven't seen one since doing the article. I think the O-books of
Notely arrived recently if you want something on that. Hope things are
well there, we might be moving to chicago the end of august. The
largest mall in the USA is just outside of Philadelphia, sans
roller-coaster, called the King of Prussia Mall. The just added about
five or ten ft of space so they could advertise it as such. Be well.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:36:43 CST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Baratier <dave.baratier@MOSBY.COM>
Subject: contrasimilitude
While philosphy may "rediscover itself in the vicinity of the poetic"
what we are talking about here is how folks such as Derrida perform
the negative critical work of demystification instead of offering a
positive model where assimilation (or some aspect thereof) can be
located in culturally perserved forms of idealization. I'm talking
about some form of a critique where a dialectic between
demystification and idealization emerges, one where the critic allows
the audience to understand what passion was found by one person within
the impact of the words and the words themselves.
Take the passage quoted from Derrida for example. Presently, there is
no language in his lungs which has caused me to start being attentive
to Celan. Similar to the rest of the book Celan is hardly mentioned or
should I say: Celan is a prop, an artifice, a screen for Derrida to
freely espouse on philosophy.
Why then is there such offense taken when a work of criticism does
the same thing due to the writer's "critical lens...?
Because it assumes the retardation of the writer's thinking process
and does so through a false appropriation or under a faux banner of
support for a text which they refuse to write about. The creative
writer isn't as smart, is less than the profound philosopher, is not
blessed with the intellect of destruction apparent in the embedded
criticism of furthering oneself.
The overthrow of the current foundational metaphor for criticism is
not accepting the experience of language as constrained, as equally
poetic and philosophical.
David Baratier
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:55:45 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: poetr cit boo offe
BOOKS BOOKS BOOKS BOOKS
The Prose of Lewis Warsh: _Agnes & Sally_ and _A Free Man_ through Poetry
City for just $15 ppd. _Agnes & Sally_ drew the famous "Mr. Warsh should be
our next president" blurb from Mr. Creeley; _A Free Man_ is stoked with
Warsh's trademark wit, drama, and sympathy. Send an email message with your
name and address to jdavis@panix.com, and I'll bill you. If you respond
today, I'll add _Avenue of Escape_, Warsh's most recent book of poems, for
another five bucks. That's midnight by the stamp on your email message.
The Maria Damon/Walter Lew offer is still good for a few more weeks, kids,
_The Dark End Of The Street_ and _Premonitions: the Kaya Anthology of New
Asian North American Poetry_ for just $30 ppd.
Alas, the 10 book Ron Silliman offer has elapsed. We have a very limited
four book deal--_Tjanting_, _Xing_, _Jones_ and _What_--for $25 ppd.
Remember, it's National Poetry Month. You're supposed to buy some books
that you've actually wanted to read.
-Jordan Davis
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:01:25 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Henry Gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: poetr cit boo offe
In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:55:45 -0500 from <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
On Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:55:45 -0500 Jordan Davis said:
>Remember, it's National Poetry Month. You're supposed to buy some books
>that you've actually wanted to read.
It's national poetry month, but only one person on this list of supposed
poets, publishers, & po-promoters has come through after my request for
book or mag donations to the Poetry Mission's new resource center on
the Cranston-Prov RI line. And thanks to Schurin for reminding me
that's Ted Berrigan's native home - I'm leaning toward voting for
"Things to Do" as the name of the joint (after his poem "Things to Do in
Providence").
So here's to Tim Wood for the generous donation, may I return the favor
someday. And to the rest of you "poets" out there, well, perhaps it's
my own abrasive motormouth fault - but it's not too late to send us that
old obscure journal duplicate or extra book sitting around. We will be
very grateful. The assistant librarian at Hall (where the center's located)
just contributed a gorgeous enclosed bookcase to hold the mags - you can
add to it. Send to: The Poetry Mission, PO Box 2321, Prov RI 02906.
Hope you can all come & read/perform/listen/visit someday.
- Henry Gould
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:46:17 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: not not jote
Notley.
N=O=T=L=E=Y.
(Not, not note).
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:47:54 CST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Baratier <dave.baratier@MOSBY.COM>
Subject: Permutations of the gallery
Pavement Saw Press
proudly announces the winner of our 1995-1996 chapbook award:
Permutations of the Gallery
by Joshua McKinney
Poems from this collection first appeared in publications such as the
Columbia Poetry Review, Denver Quarterly, Situation, Santa Barbara
Review, and Willow Springs.
Publication, a prize of five hundred dollars and ten percent of the
book run are awarded to the winner of the annual prize. *Permutations
of the Gallery* was selected by Naton Leslie as the 1996 winner of the
Pavement Saw Poetry Chapbook Award.
About the book:
Permutations of the Gallery is an ambitious collection, even if
recklessly so. Joshua McKinney's poems struggle against the confines
of syntax and literal sense, in order to arrive at a uniquely clear
grasp of the truces we must maintain with time and spacial existence.
To attempt to paraphrase these knotty and paradoxical poems would be
akin to stating that Wallace Stevens wrote about the weather. Don't
search for narrative threads here, poems about Queen Anne's Lace or
cicadas, or paeans for our humdrum, domestic lives. And don't expect
to read this book once.
Naton Leslie
Joshua McKinney knows that philosophy is not an abstract matter, nor
in anyway separate from our everyday lives. His poems show that to
engage the world intimately, we need to _think_ it in the most
particular ways. In *Permutations of the Gallery* family friends,
nature, and a troubling social world are not givens, but rather
questions by which we explore the twisting, disruptive, estatic,
sometimes even annihilating terms of our existence.
Mark Wallace
A poetry held taut, that revels in economy and clarity, is filled with
insights and syntactical compassion. I highly recommend *Permutations
of the Gallery*.
Simon Perchik
Published in a limited edition of 250 copies,
perfect bound, 6 by 9 size
Availiable April 17th. Price $5.00, includes p&h.
Checks payable to:
Pavement Saw Press
7 James Street
Scotia, NY 12302
Thanks
dave.baratier@mosby.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:25:54 CST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Baratier <dave.baratier@MOSBY.COM>
Subject: Re: contrasimilacrum
maria
I never found a shift, the one you found between working on the renga
and writing criticism. Granted a large portion of the reasoning behind
this may be the fact that my fiscal livelihood does not depend on
publication, therfore the writing is an unpressured situation, a favor
for someone if you will.
David Baratier
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:30:39 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: contrasimilacrum
Well, David---Your "smiling author" has found the same shift Maria
spoke of, and at times it's maddening, at other times it's a great
fall back strategy of roatating crops since "after all it isn't every
day the world arranges itself into a poem" (as Stevens said)...cs...
(hey, good luck in chicago---with hoover gone, the town is in dire
need of you....as is phila., but oh well one less incentive to want
to move there.....
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:16:41 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Jewish Encyclopedia
bi eryk of the north writes:
>so, i'm "doing" ginsberg.
but maria, i heard he prefers men!
yes and i hear he would have preferred to be written up in the J encyc. by
some man in montreal. but the editors ran the options by r kostelanetz (who
died and made him God?) and he "okayed" me, tho he'd written me a sharp note
when my book came out, didn't like the way i referred to his take on "avant
garde", felt i misrepresented him as a meritocratic aesthete. or something.
if you're out there, rk, greetings. glad to have passed muster on ginsberg,
having fun w/ it.--md
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:33:59 -0400
Reply-To: Robert Drake <au462@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Robert Drake <au462@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: DIU piece
>for one, the poe pieces seem to be distinctively male, or at least
>male-identified... yeah, poe's a male, but this isn't quite what i mean...
>what i mean is that by conducting critical scrutiny through an---well,
>let's say an 1850 stylistic lens, one of the first things to go out the
>window is the sense that there's been a transformation in women's roles...
>however clever or self-modulated, poe passes judgment with an incredibly
>omniscient 'voice,' with little concern for other-ness... such wit, for
>example, generally doesn't compensate for race considerations, at least not
>as we are accustomed to seeing same displayed... which is where the remarks
>poe makes as to physical (un)attractiveness leave me feeling
>uncomfortable... which seems, at least, to seep over (in tone?---not quite
>sure) into the various "taste"-driven evaluations of a given poet's work...
>
>
>in other words, i get this feeling that poe is a device/persona that
>effects, in addition to some perceptive critique, a reintroduction of some
>of the less savory aspects of 19th discourse into the current scene, w/o
>always taking responsibility for the resulting complications... "but this
>is poe, he's gothic" etc. strike me as a---well, to borrow from past
>parlance, chris, as a bit of a cop-out... and i know you well enuf to know
>this isn't what you intend...
joe, one of th valuable points the poe pieces/persona makes (to me) is
exactly how little has changed re womens roles, dominant discourse style,
etc... i'm pessimistic that those qualities are "reintroduced" by the
posts into the dialoge, rather that they continue & poe's satire points
that out... always the difference between re-presenting a stance and
advocating it... which line, in diu generally, i believe is straddled,
transited & transgressed in ways i find useful, as (self)critique &
gentle poking fun...
sincere
lbd
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 19:38:47 +0200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "William M. Northcutt" <William.Northcutt@UNI-BAYREUTH.DE>
Subject: That wot rules:
That whut rules:
Silliman's Xing
What
Toner
abc etc
Taj Mahal's Phantom Blues
Page 214 of Peter Hoeg's Miss Smilla's Feeling for Snow (flamingo edition)
Willie Walsh's unpublished dissertation: Loose Talk
The suspected Unabomber's hair
That which inspired the laughter on "And Your Bird Can Sing" Beatles Anthology 2
end of message:
Chicken-House Willie's minimalist school of literary theory and
poetrythathelenvendlercantread
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:44:07 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: Minneapolis
This is Dodie. I wish I'd been able to read more of the Minneapolis
discussion here, but most of the messages were deleted before I got to
them. However, I did read Maria Damon's valient defense of her criticisms
of Minneapolis and the Midwest.
Last weekend I had a Minneapolis experience. There was an Eckankar seminar
here in San Francisco, and since I wrote a cover story on them a year and a
half ago or so, and the seminar was only 7 blocks from my house, I went to
the Friday night session. Eckankar used to be located out here in Menlo
Park, but sometime in the past ten years moved to Chanhausen, which,
reading between the lines, I'm assuming is a suburb of Minneapolis. In
other words, according to this group, Minneapolis is the spiritual center
of the physical world. And some of you are griping about it there!
Anyway, since cult members tend to mimic their leaders, and since the head
guy is as Midwestern conservative as you can get (for instance, people on
welfare are "undeveloped souls" who eventually will have to pay bigtime for
what they're taking but haven't earned), the seminar was like having a
chunk of the midwest lifted out whole and plopped down in the basement of
the Marriot--affect, styles, values. One woman in a dayglo blue business
suit got up there and told this elaborate story about the spiritual lessons
she learned from slipping on the ice. Detail after detail of Minneapolis
life was served up and fetishized. It was awesome.
Since all this was happening in San Francisco, there were, of course,
comparisons between California and Minneapolis--basically California has
great weather, but Minneapolis is Real Life. I think that this
categorization is something I've internalized myself, especially since I'm
now working as an arts administrator--sometimes, especially during PMS, I
question my lack of connection to Real Life--like I don't know anybody who
isn't a writer, visual artist, or a dreaded arts administrator. Saturday
night I got together with my ex-husband, who is a member of this cult, used
to live in Minneapolis and loved it, and who definitely has a Real Life.
Since he's Spiritual he never complains about anything, but I was moved to
tears by how horrid his Real Life was. He's a regular working class guy
struggling to survive. I ran home to Kevin determined to remain a spoiled
princess forever.
Since I'm from the midwest I'm always trying to resolve something about it.
I know I would never in a million years developed as a writer if I stayed
there--and it wasn't like I was living in the middle of nowhere--I was in
Chicago before I came here. But I can't tell if it would be workable for
me now. My experience of the midwest is that of a working class person--I
have no idea what middle class people's lives are like in the midwest, just
as I have little idea what working class people's lives are like in
California. When I was first getting involved in the Bay area writing
scene a mentor told me that writing was a middle class occupation (Marxism
was still very much part of the Talk back then), and I was really resistant
to this idea, but now I'm pretty much convinced it's true. I think that my
development as a writer was just a contingent upon leaving my class as
leaving the midwest. Sometimes I feel like an immigrant, sometimes I feel
like an expatriot. But there's always this aura of living outside. The
midwest is seen as this lost Eden of inside.
Enough!
Dodie
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:17:59 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michelle Roberts <meaghan@UTDALLAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: poet/critic
In-Reply-To: <960411084759_511031361@emout08.mail.aol.com>
Maria,
The going back and forth from creating mode to critical mode is a rough
transition to make in like 5 minutes. It takes me anywhere from a couple
hours to a whole day, and I never go from one mode of writing directly to
another. I read for a while in the middle, and usually something related
to the next bit of writing -- it helps to give the mind time to shift
gears. I'm not trying to say that creating and critiquing are THE SAME
activity -- only that I think they are intricately interrelated -- both
for some individuals and historically.
As to fear that you're braindead -- you don't seem to be -- as to
braindeath after tenure: I'm still getting my doctorate and I'm not sure
my head is up to speed these days either. I think that people who really
think just get insecure about their ability to think because it's
important to us. That you are concerned seems to show me that you're the
sort of prof. who is not resting on tenured laurels, and I'm thrilled to
see that.
Lastly -- I don't think that a discussion of a literary text from or
withing a theoretical frame (and I really mean ANY frame) is worth beans
unless it also uses or is based in a close reading. That's one of the
problems that so many poets seem to have, is that without close reading,
critics seem to discuss a particular text, but they offer that text none
of its specificity. The specificity of the text is what close reading
maintains, not the author's intentions or any of that. I personally
never rely on any critic's reading of anything that doesn't use at least
a semiotic close reading (in the case of visual texts, I think semiotics
is close reading.) Never! Without close attention to that particular
text, the critic could be talking about almost anything.
Anyway -- stop stressing and enjoy your work,
we are of the few people who get to do what
we like to do. And if you're tired, try to rest
a little.
Meaghan.
Meaghan Roberts | ... in our interpreted world...
Ph.D. Candidate - Ethics and Literature |
The University of Texas at Dallas |
Meaghan@UTDALLAS.EDU |
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:03:11 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Henry Gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Minneapolis
In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:44:07 -0700 from <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
On Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:44:07 -0700 Dodie Bellamy said:
Eckankar used to be located out here in Menlo
>Park, but sometime in the past ten years moved to Chanhausen, which,
>reading between the lines, I'm assuming is a suburb of Minneapolis. In
>other words, according to this group, Minneapolis is the spiritual center
>of the physical world. And some of you are griping about it there!
Actually the center of the world, or omphalos, is in Hopkins, MN,
another suburb, in a backyard on Arthur St (a mid-working class
neighborhood at the time) at a certain point by a picket fence
where a 2-yr old handed a dandelion to Heidi Johnson in 1954.
Eckankar is way off (it's Chanhassen, by the way. Also home to the
Chanhassen Dinner Theater, another avant-garde showplace).
Dodie, you're getting good at ringing some changes on the
Knock the Midwest genre, which is a pretty well-worn rut.
- Henry Gould
>Since I'm from the midwest I'm always trying to resolve something about it.
>I know I would never in a million years developed as a writer if I stayed
>there--
sometimes it takes more than a million years to develop - like the
glaciers which once turned prehistoric Minnesota into an enormous
lake - some of that water is still there, going to writing workshops.
>scene a mentor told me that writing was a middle class occupation (Marxism
>was still very much part of the Talk back then)
when are Neruda & Vallejo going to learn?
>midwest is seen as this lost Eden of inside.
they don't call it "the heartland" for nothing. - Henry Gould
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:29:12 CST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Baratier <dave.baratier@MOSBY.COM>
Subject: Re: contrasimilacrum
Hey Smiley,
Sorry to hear the news about academia. I hope DK called you about the
reading in Brooklyn and you agreed. Rake your strange leaves, your
strange leavings, poor brooklyn soil. I do implore you to stop quoting
that populist poet just because he's from your home town. So the house
was quiet and the world was calm. So the quiet was part of the meaning
the mind hooked on classics, the access of perfection to the page.
Perpetuating the myth of meaning's multitudinal monkified access.
Nothing sucks like success.
Why not quote Byron Vassakis.
Val at blvd has Jim Tate coming down next month if you'd like to
rollick with us.
Francois (La Salon) Bacon
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:28:33 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Bennett Cerf <POETRY@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: thoroughbreds (is: sensitive)
Joe Amato is right. The 19th century can't be superimposed over the
20th without certain deformations of vision occurring. The surprise,
first of all, is how few, and second, how little light shows through
from OUR end of the tunnel. Strictly in translation terms Joe is also
right that one of the biggest shift has been in gender roles--though
Joe misunderstands the problem. Poe's chivalry (he was, after all, a
Southerner) means he is much kinder to the ladies than the gents.
For this reason our 20th century Poe (Poe with a differance, Edgar
AllEn Poe) has sometimes had to alter the genders (we moderns having
freed ourselves from the patronizing prejudice of chivalry). The
_political_ content of the Poe pieces thus lies in the
friction between the two versions. (See, e.g., Poe's as yet
unpublished review of Joe Brainard's _I Remember_, in which an 1842
essay on John G.C. Brainard gives E.A.P. a chance to ruminate on gay
pride.) Race is another matter. Poe I's Margaret Fuller may bear
_some_ resemblance to Poe II's Lyn Hejinian, but his Tennyson is a
distant forebear indeed to Nate Mackey. Other matters: Only an academic
could POSSIBLY say that beauty is a male concern. Lastly: Poe the
First was America's first serious
literary critic; his work remains both
acute and funny. He was also, alas, a thug (see, e.g., Poe's
as-yet-untranslated Longfellow attacks). Poe II's nastiest moment is his
Lew Daly review, but of course the most damning aspect of that piece is
the quotes.
--Baltimore Raven
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:41:11 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: oetry ity ook ffer
BOOKA BOOK BOOK BOOKA
Hey! Thanks for your enthusiastic response to the book offers! I'm out of
Silliman books. I have a few more Warsh triads ($15! cheap) and a couple of
Damon/Lew combos ($30! double cheap).
Okay!
Jordan
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:04:00 PDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steve Carll <sjcarll@SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: Tennis With/out A Net, Anyone?
At 11:52 PM 4/11/96 -0500, Chris S. wrote:
> Dear Steve---
> So, white straight male #1 is more like white straight male #2 than
> either of them are to black bi female #1.....
> the implication that black can not MOVE (or COMMAND the attention)
> of white...is that what you're saying? Chris
No, not at all. I'm trying to point to a problematic in the relationship
between a politics of identity and the democratic ideal. If we emphasize
the commonness of our HUMANITY, and ignore color, gender, sexual
orientation, class, religion, etc., democracy is possible. If we emphasize
the UNIQUENESS of every human being, despite the fact that each one is the
same gender as roughly half the others, the same color as X% of the others,
the same orientation as Y%, etc., democracy is possible. It's when we pick
a few of those factors and overidentify with them, while letting both the
things we have in common with those who have diffenent factors and the
things that make us unique from those who share these few factors slide that
the energy needed to sustain a true democracy tends to really dissipate.
It's not that black CAN'T move white, but that too many whites won't allow
themselves to BE moved.
Steve
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:04:00 PDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steve Carll <sjcarll@SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: contrasimilitude
Well, David, I have to ask, are we talking about the same book?
_Wordtraces: Readings of Paul Celan_, edited by Aris Fioretos, 1994: The
Johns Hopkins University Press? Because I'm not quite halfway through it,
but every essay I've read so far is DRIPPING with passion for Celan's work.
The passage I quoted from Derrida wasn't speciffically geared to make you
attentive to Celan, it was to refute your implicit claim that philosophers
have contempt for poets: Derrida says pretty clearly that philosophy and
poetry are to be considered equally important as investigations of language.
I don't see how any assertion of "retardation of the writer's thinking
process" or attitude that "creative writer isn't as smart, is less than the
profound philosopher" can be extrapolated from that. Maybe you're just
looking for a different kind of idealization from the critics, one that puts
the poets above the critics and doesn't tell us anything new about the
poetry, just serves as an advertisement for the poetic commodity, instead of
acknowledging the value of criticism as a potentially enlightening activity
in its own right. Which, I hope you won't be offended by my saying so, is
kind of a funny attitude for someone with such a big vocabulary. :-)
Steve
At 09:36 AM 4/12/96 CST, David Baratier wrote:
> While philosphy may "rediscover itself in the vicinity of the poetic"
> what we are talking about here is how folks such as Derrida perform
> the negative critical work of demystification instead of offering a
> positive model where assimilation (or some aspect thereof) can be
> located in culturally perserved forms of idealization. I'm talking
> about some form of a critique where a dialectic between
> demystification and idealization emerges, one where the critic allows
> the audience to understand what passion was found by one person within
> the impact of the words and the words themselves.
>
> Take the passage quoted from Derrida for example. Presently, there is
> no language in his lungs which has caused me to start being attentive
> to Celan. Similar to the rest of the book Celan is hardly mentioned or
> should I say: Celan is a prop, an artifice, a screen for Derrida to
> freely espouse on philosophy.
>
> Why then is there such offense taken when a work of criticism does
> the same thing due to the writer's "critical lens...?
>
> Because it assumes the retardation of the writer's thinking process
> and does so through a false appropriation or under a faux banner of
> support for a text which they refuse to write about. The creative
> writer isn't as smart, is less than the profound philosopher, is not
> blessed with the intellect of destruction apparent in the embedded
> criticism of furthering oneself.
>
> The overthrow of the current foundational metaphor for criticism is
> not accepting the experience of language as constrained, as equally
> poetic and philosophical.
>
>
> David Baratier
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:21:20 EDT
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From: Henry Gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: contrasimilitude
In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:04:00 PDT from <sjcarll@SLIP.NET>
On Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:04:00 PDT Steve Carll said:
Derrida says pretty clearly that philosophy and
>poetry are to be considered equally important as investigations of language.
It's nice to know we can swim together with the philosophers in the same
authorless, self-referential goop. Thanks, Jacques. In an essay in Nedge
#1 a couple years ago, the late Henry Ghoul wrote:
"The French philosophes have buried Plato's God and the Author,
together, phoenix & turtle, with solemn Sorbonnean rites. We can relive
that poignant moment, again and again, in Language Poetry." [Then he went
on to make witty mincemeat of all other literary schools, except those of
the Unread Generation] - HG
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Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:34:35 -0500
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From: Matthew S Sackmann <msackma@MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Culture with a "Q"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960411120038.16070E-100000@email1.asu.edu>
On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Jeffrey W. Timmons wrote:
> Maria,
>
> What states _do_ have magic? I nominate Nebraska, strangely enough. And
> I have a predisposition to Oregon. Living in Phoenix I can't speak for
> Arizona, but I know that there is a spirituality _somewhere_ to be found
> here. DC has some magic tucked away here in there in little
> pockets--which I might disclose if prompted--but that may be my own
> creation. Thinking of other states, and where there magic is. . . .
>
> Jeffrey Timmons
>
States with magic...hmmm... Let me list mine= Northern California (should
be it's own state), Washington, and that's about it. There are a few
magic cities too= 'Frisco, N'Awlins, Key West, and Quebec City.
Well, that's all i have to say.
~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
Matt Sackmann- counting down the days 'till summer.
"The soul is born old but grows young. That is the comedy of life.
And the body is born young and grows old. That is life's tragedy."
-Oscar Wilde
"Society often forgives the criminal; it never forgives the dreamer."
-OW
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Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:32:33 -0700
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From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Smurfing U.S.A.
In-Reply-To: <199604120453.AAA01902@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
"How did you feel your dead mother while you were writing that poem?"
--Bill Moyers
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Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:37:22 -0700
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From: MAXINE CHERNOFF <maxpaul@SFSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Culture with a "Q"
In-Reply-To: <960411084817_511031515@emout08.mail.aol.com>
What is this disgusting talk about "no magic in Minnesota"? I think it's
time for "us" to consider how small-minded such statements of regional
prejudice are. So all midwesterners are hicks, all southerners are
racist, and all christians are fundamentalists. Keeps it right simple,
don't it? The poetry festival in Minnesota that Charles Alexander
describes could have happened anywhere in the country--it's not a
reflection of midwestern values but rather the obsessive marketing of
everything in this country including poetry. That seven-year-old
aviatrix, Jessica Dubroff, died because her parents were marketing her as
the next Amelia Earhart. And what's this crap about the "hinterlands"?
I thought "we" were supposed to be sensitive to "difference." Saw FARGO,
by the way. Clever, violent, ultimately hollow--rather like a Quentin
Tarantino movie. The ethnic stereotype is of white midwesterners as
bland hicks. But I loved the pregnant sheriff.
Paul Hoover
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Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:40:39 -0500
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: motivational training seminars
[Then he went on to make witty mincemeat of all other literary schools,
except those of the Unread Generation] - HG
___
Gee, why'd he do that?
--Jordan
PS the winner of the 'free tjanting' contest was Tim Davis, whose answer to
the question, "what are those black things under seals' eyes"--"Nepalese
kleenex"--was selected by the invisble power brokers who say whose work we
have to read and like.
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Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:56:49 -0500
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From: Robert A Harrison <Robert.A.Harrison@JCI.COM>
Subject: Provincialism
A few comments in response to the recent comments on the midwest, since I'm
living in Milwaukee. There are lots of times I feel that maybe the midwest
isn't the best place, but I've lived outside the midwest, in several places,
most of my life, and have had the same feeling about those places. As far as
poetry goes, Woodland Pattern is a far better place to find anything I'm
looking for than Beyond Baroque, SPT, or St. Marks, for example. I know there
are lots more poets interested in writing similar to what I'm interested in in
say places like SF or NYC, so sometimes I think I'm missing being part of a
scene. But, more and more I think that the fact that I don't have to hassle
as much with finances, crowding, etc., makes up for this. Besides, now that
we're all in cyberspace, isn't this the most noplace of places? A question
for Maria D, how many of the outsiders you've written about are from outside
California and NYC?
Bob Harrison
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Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:48:36 -0500
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From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: DIU piece
luigi, could well be, i'm probably sensitive most to the 'straddling' you
refer to... anyway, i'm eager to hear what others may think of this... no
way do i see mself as 'right' here, but i do know when i'm feeling
uncomfortable...
not that good writing is meant to yield only comfort or some such... but
there are some unpleasantries i'd just as soon pass on... it's sometimes
difficult in those poe pieces to know whether the writer(s?) isn't taking
cheap shots through the persona... and i guess i'd feel more comfortable
without this particular uncertainty...
oddly enuf, i never feel this way reading, say, kathy acker... go figger...
best//
joe
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Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:05:39 PST
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From: Franklin Bruno <BRUNO@HUMNET.UCLA.EDU>
Subject: Elmslie
Okay, a comment before my question this time:
A poet that should be named in any discussion of the interface
between song lyrics and poems is Kenward Elmslie, who's done extensive
work in the musical theater as well that has clearly informed his
highly condensed, highly musical, Tin Pan O'Hara-ish poems.
So my question is this: I'm sure that I saw a long interview w/
Elmslie in some journal in the last two or three years. I thought it
was -Conjunctions-, but I haven't been able to turn it up. Can
anyone help with this? He's a somewhat mysterious poet to me (as
in, info about him is hard to come by), and such poets usually end up
being the ones I dig the deepest into.
And heck, another comment: Guided By Voices are fine, but there's
something of the low-rent Surrealist about their work (see also
everything Robyn Hitchcock's done since about '85). Although, they
were being characterized as 'throwaway,' so why complain? Pavement
have, I think, a more nuanced lyrical stance, although they're often
misread by their numerous fans (who, unfortunately, all form bands of
their own and put out bad singles--I've exaggerating) as being
absurdists of some kind. (I'm convinced that several of their songs
are about Robert Smithson.) I'm going to try to think of a few rock
lyricists whom the people who are interested in such things on this
list might find intriguing, but in the meantime, someone help me with
Elmslie.
fjb
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Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 19:06:42 -0500
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From: Robert A Harrison <Robert.A.Harrison@JCI.COM>
Subject: diu
About DIU, I'd like to add my two cents. I think its basically pretty much a
waste of time, all due respect to the editors/authors. I never get the sense
from it that it goes beyond any sort of deadening cynicism, which seems to me
common enough. I don't ever find it funny in the least. Quite different than
something like say, EXHILE, which I think is often hilarious. And, speaking
as a Panamanian-American, English my second language, and wanting as much as
anyone for there to be more space for difference, I don't quite see the point
in ending every issue with acknowledging "the final days of the white race."
Seems to me that race based reasoning is what needs to finalized, not any
particular race.
Bob Harrison
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Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 18:22:44 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From: Tim Wood <twood@CONNECT.NET>
Subject: Re: poetr cit boo offe
I find this annoying to say the least. I can't keep up with the flow of
what too often seems like... well anyway... it seems particularly annoying
for a group this verbal and active about poetry not responding to your
offer. If you'll send me a short paragraph this weekend on the Poetry
Mission, I'll include a blurb in the next issue of the arts magazine I
publish.
I can't make any guarantees about issues such as quality, but I believe we
can roust up a few books (at least) for you. Hmm... idea. I'll try and
turn it into a poster and put it up around town and talk to a few people.
We'll see what happens.
Tim
>On Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:55:45 -0500 Jordan Davis said:
>>Remember, it's National Poetry Month. You're supposed to buy some books
>>that you've actually wanted to read.
>
>It's national poetry month, but only one person on this list of supposed
>poets, publishers, & po-promoters has come through after my request for
>book or mag donations to the Poetry Mission's new resource center on
>the Cranston-Prov RI line. And thanks to Schurin for reminding me
>that's Ted Berrigan's native home - I'm leaning toward voting for
>"Things to Do" as the name of the joint (after his poem "Things to Do in
>Providence").
>
>So here's to Tim Wood for the generous donation, may I return the favor
>someday. And to the rest of you "poets" out there, well, perhaps it's
>my own abrasive motormouth fault - but it's not too late to send us that
>old obscure journal duplicate or extra book sitting around. We will be
>very grateful. The assistant librarian at Hall (where the center's located)
>just contributed a gorgeous enclosed bookcase to hold the mags - you can
>add to it. Send to: The Poetry Mission, PO Box 2321, Prov RI 02906.
>Hope you can all come & read/perform/listen/visit someday.
>- Henry Gould
in space no one can hear you scream
in Dallas no one cares...
______________________________________________________________________________
Check out the Voices new poetry website at http://www.connect.net/twood/
the Word, Dallas' monthly arts guide: http://www/connect.net/twood/word.html
poetry & video poetry ---- graphic design & database development
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Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:56:45 -0700
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From: "Sheila E. Murphy" <semurphy@AZLINK.COM>
Subject: psychic geography
It was enormously engaging to watch FARGO'S pregnant chief of police this
past Sunday.
It seems impossible to paint the Midwest in any way that people would agree
upon. Or any other part of the US. But one thing DOES seem certain: Some
geographic locations tend to be conducive to one's OWN physique,
temperament, and God knows what else. And if I knew more about psychic
geography, I'd quote chap and verse. In any case, the West is a gift for
me. It's a good thing it exists. That most familiar Midwestern fragrance I
grew up in never really worked for me on any count. The desert DOES. And
along with my theory that one should "Stay far enough from people or places
that you can still love them" parts of the world and the collective psyche
are very very nice just where they are. Away!
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Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 17:21:15 -0700
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From: main <feathers@U.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <199604120521.BAA00845@destrier.acsu.buffalo.edu>
On Fri, 12 Apr 1996, William R Howe wrote:
> jeff the question in some respects is not nec weather there is a possibility
> for an avant whatsit in oh vader a tive poetics to congeal underneath the
> bly blindness but rather within the context convexness of middle amtrak hinter
> lands it is possible to perform any transfiguration of culture whatsoever
> i recently was asked to read in my home town of lubbock tx (which in itself was
> rather wierd) and was amazed by the interest i was shown in my oddness but i am
> not at all convinced that poetry for the mass micky-d mall kulturni allows us
> (as eno elevators) any kind of voice what hinterlanders see are the blynders and
> not the <<underground>> if only because of their true faith in the market and
> what the mall represents (arrival) do you look behind the toilet in a rfast food
> feeding traugh to see if it is clean
>
william--
curious: does lubbock figure into this "culture" that's to be
transfigured by "avant whatsit" poetry? i'm asking this because it seems
there is a lot of ambivalence toward the mass culture audience among the
"avante garde": on one hand, an ironic dichotomizing between "high" and
"low" audiences (while simultaneously trying to blur the high/low art
distinction in the work) and exclusionary attitude, and, on the other
hand, a feeling of responsibility to "transforming culture" en masse
(_including_ lubbock and Minnesota). i think that some of the most
powerful art and philosophy of this century have come out of this
so-called low-culture matrix; arguably, it puts the _post_ in modern. as
far as "context...of middle...lands" goes, i would argue that geography
is being superseded by more complex models of communalspace/ place (or, as
Wallace
points out, experimental poetics isn't-- for good or bad --as anchored to
geography as it was, say, thirty years ago). i'm wondering whether this
exclusivity between the "avant garde" and "lubbock" is mutual. if so,
what does it mean about the role of the avant garde in "transforming
culture." _avant_, in other words, of what?
dan
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Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 09:14:05 +0800
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From: Schuchat <schuchat@ARC.ARC.ORG.TW>
Subject: Re: Provincialism
In-Reply-To: <n1382797845.78676@CTGshare.corp.jci.com>
This anti-Minnesota thread is fascinating. I have lived in the mid-West
as well as up and down the east coast, but mainly the Far East (forgive
the Britishism).
I can assure you that (excepting New York City, America's Hong Kong) most
foreigners won't distinguish midwest from west coast from south from east
coast, except for the weather and natural scenery.
doesn't it extend one to live in different places and rub/bump up against
the local culture? or is that too alienated a way to live?
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Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 22:22:29 -0400
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Patrick Phillips <Patrick_Phillips@BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Ziolkowski's "Our Son the Arson" is out
Thad Ziolkowski's _Our Son the Arson_ is out from what books and is
available.
Given the great changes in my life recently, I just cannot be expected to
remember who responded to my earlier announcement and would like for
-anyone- who is interested, in purchasing the book for $5 ($9 cover) to
pass on a message (back channel) to me. I'll send the books, you send the
bucks.
All what books, including my own, _Ruin_, are available from SPD - just
contact Steve Dickison if you want to stock them in your stores, or you can
arrange something with me directly.
Thanks putting up with duplicate requests if you've made them.
Patrick
Patrick_Phillips@brown.edu
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Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 01:46:51 -0500
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jonathan Brannen <jbrannen@INFOLINK.MORRIS.MN.US>
Subject: Re: Culture with a "Q"
Maria & Mike,
_Fargo_ was reviewed on the editorial page of the Minneapolis Star-Tribune
rather than in the entertainment section. The editor described the film as
"immature" and suggested that it takes more than a few cheap shots at
Minnesota. He (and, you bet, I mean he) then expressed sadness because of
the "lack of artistic growth" demonstrated by Minnesota's "native-sons" the
Coen brothers. This reaction is so Minnesotian, that I had to share it with
you.
Personally, I can't wait to see the film!!!
Henry,
Balkanization of the universe? All I want is a colorized Minnesota!
Cheers,
Jonathan
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Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 09:09:34 -0400
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Provincialism
bob harrison:
two of my outsiders were frm boston, one (bob kaufman) from new orleans.
bests, maria d
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Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 04:05:07 -1000
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: May Day Poetry in L.A. (fwd)
For any of ye so inclined... Gab.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
On May 1st at Sam's Book City in North Hollywood a poetry rant
and chant will occur. It is titled "Wobblies, Pilebutts and Other Heroes:
Words and Songs of Social Struggle".
Featured are Robert Chambers (of the Homeless Writers Coalition), Obi
(from the Peace and Justice Center), Dirk DeGeyndt (from Minds Matter),
Andrew Willett (Wobbly troubador) and Miguel Sanchez (agitator). There is
an open reading to follow. All are invited except bosses, scabs, and other
agents of repression.
amor y solidaridad,
miguel
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Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 09:31:44 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: thoroughbreds (is: sensitive)
br, or bennett, or whoever: on the matter of beauty: "beauty" is not
strictly a "male concern," no, but how it's addressed certainly is (wasn't
it fred turner, whose name i saw around here recently, who penned some
relatively recent and imho awful(ly) academic ideas re same?)... critique
of the concept of beauty is not quite the same thing as rendering judgment
based on, let's say, arbitrary and motivated 'standards'... and i have
many non-academic friends who would understand same put in precisely such
terms...
now as to the rest: i really don't know about poe's work "remain[ing'
funny"... but i'm not going to write mself into a box here, esp. b/c
there's always an interpretive way out of any such bind... i'm expressing
my discomfort, again, at certain of allEn poe's judgments... it's a
feeling, and it's based of course on my interpretive tendencies... but you
don't sound too willing to allow for these latter... i guess you're telling
me, br, or bennett, or whoever, that in fact allEn poe is juggling the
distances?... i mean, the sociocultural distances twixt poe's earlier
incarnations and the contemporary scene?... and that i'm to interpret 'him'
as self-consciously doing so, or as a self-conscious construction that
works so (another blurring)?... ergo anything that seems nasty i'm to
s'pose is not nasty by poe's or his creator's (s') intentions/motivations,
but is meant to problematize (there's a nice academic word), again, the
aforesaid distances?...
ok... here's the catch: the interpretive given here is being given to me
by you, br, or bennett, or whoever, whom i assume is (or are) poe's
creator(s)... presumably i'm a little slow here...
i take it back---i'm NOT slow!... but presumably you are nonetheless
providing an apologia for allEn poe, or at the very least a method or way
of understanding 'his' motivations... so not only do allEn poe's creators
create poe, but they argue for the effect of his discourse?... to folks
like me, i mean, who don't quite 'get' it, or if they do, don't quite like
what they're getting?...
honestly, now, i'm feeling a bit imposed upon, hermeneutically speaking...
i mean, you can't really account for the way i'm feeling... i mean, why not
bend a bit, br, or bennett, or whoever, and accept the fact that allEn poe
IS leaving open the possibility of the response you're getting---from me
and, judging by poetics, a few others?...
a final note: i refer you, most academically, to book three, section xvi
of augustine's _on christian doctrine_... a logic of interpretation similar
to what you propose is to be found there... to wit, re the scripture: "if
a locution is admonitory, condemning either vice or crime or commending
either utility or beneficence, it is not figurative. but if it seems to
commend either vice or crime or to condemn either utility or beneficence,
it is figurative"...
peace, out//
joe
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Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 09:59:41 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU>
Subject: poet/critic, provincialism, etc...
yknow, the poet/critic discussion and the provincialism discussion come
together for me at this idea of place: seems to me that there ARE negative
factors just about every place one goes, though what we're each willing to
put up with varies... that said, i don't really see why it's beyond the
pale (a phrase whose etymology comes from anglo domination of dublin, no?)
to consider that there may be an entire region whose *general* political
tendencies are loathsome... while at the same time allowing for a certain
u.s./mall-ish homogeneity, and the fact that said loathsome politics may be
regarded by said inhabitants as LESS loathsome than other such realities
(such as traffic, or pollution, or whatever---again you can hear that
rural-(sub)urban distinction)...
at the same time: having spent some time permitting my head to wander OFF
the page and the sentence whilst composing 'criticism' (i call it that,
anyway), i can assure anybody who desires such assurance that there's a
real sense of freedom comes in working through discourse using writing
practices that are often thought to be discrete---poetry and criticism, if
you like, provided each term is construed broadly... and that this
unorthodox gesture will most assuredly complicate one's publishing
potential... hence complicate one's "sense of freedom," raising to the
surface the economics of publishing and writing... and i mean, whether or
no one writes 'for a living,' b/c a steady stream of rejections (which
we've all seen, i'm sure) has some effect regardless...
now for me this latter constitutes a certain conception of place too... i
mean, one's community is prefigured by place, traditionally, though perhaps
virtual place is now prefiguring (or at worst, serving as a pretext for)
community... once you shift or mix places around, denying a simple
metaphysics of place, say, you shift, well, the where's and perhaps how's
of readership... and it strikes me that (really reaching now) the politics
of form may thus be seen as related to a politics of fora through this
altered conception of place... put simply: when you shake & bake as on
this list, you're bound to be shaking & baking regional differences that
are a complex of aesthetic forms and geographic predispositions... which is
not to suggest a direct link twixt geographically-discrete culture and
form, or cognition (though i've always suspected same), but that there ARE
nonetheless cultural gradients that shape the places of our writing
practices, and that writing through *these* electronic places is bound to
result in a shift in same, altering the basis for said (writing)
practices... hell, just look at that word 'basis,' and all words having a
foundational, subStantive 'base' (kenneth burke writes about this latter
someplace or other, no?)...
too fast, ssorry, just running through...
joe
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Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 12:45:16 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Provincialism
schuchat writes:
doesn't it extend one to live in different places and rub/bump up against
the local culture? or is that too alienated a way to live?
theoretically, i agree. in addition to growing up in new england, i've spent
a lot of time in rural denmark (w/ my mother's family), a year in paris (on
high school scholarship), and 7 years in palo alto (grad school) preceding
these 7 years in minnesota. culturally, i resisted the move from MA to CA
but ws not traumatized. going to mn i was Deeply traumatized. this may also
have been cuz my department was so not what i'd expected. apparently my
obvious depression was a topic of discussion among my colleagues (even wd
come up at my annual review) but the few times they asked what could be done,
at the departmental level, to make me happier, i'd say, whatever (forge
closer bonds w/ interdisciplinary depts, foster a more intellectually
suportive environment for incoming faculty, etc) i was told that this was
impossible. so and so in english had a fight w/ so and so in comp lit 20
years ago, so even tho both so and sos have retired or moved to other
universities, of course we can't do anything w/ comp lit, etc). meanwhile,
in my attempts to find community outside the U, at my women's support group,
for example, i was mistrusted cuz i was professional, single, emotional, used
"big words," etc. people were afraid of me cuz i was "different." i think
it's true that it can stretch one to live in other environments, but in this
case, i was stretched to far, and snapped.
bests, maria d
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 13:23:13 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Bob Holman <Nuyopoman@AOL.COM>
s from a couple days ago so I try again...
Subj: Michael Smith
Date: 96-04-10 01:26:48 EDT
From: Nuyopoman
To: POETICS@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu
"Michael Smith was on the threshold of consolidating a rapidly rising
international reputation as a poet when he was murdered by supporters of the
Jamaican Labor Party on 17th August, 1983" writes Linton Kwesi Johnson on the
back cover of "It A Come: Poems by Michael Smith" (Race Today
Publications:London, 1986). Smith's first LP, "Mi Cyaan Believe It," had just
been released by Island Records.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 13:24:29 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Bob Holman <Nuyopoman@AOL.COM>
Subject: National Poetry Month
Subj: National Poetry Month
Date: 96-04-10 01:25:09 EDT
From: Nuyopoman
To: POETICS@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu
Thanks, David Bartier, for the Hass scoops. I have taught from his River of
Words curriculum, and enjoyed esp. his essay re: Duncan and spawning salmon.
I had a pleasant enough chat with him 3-4 weeks ago and set up an inteview
for iGuide (http://ww.iGuide.com/music/poetry) which he blew off, just up and
disappeared. I finally roused his assistant yesterday (three weeks later),
when Ileft a message I'd composed questions _and_ answers myself ala
Berrigan-Cage and wondered if Bob would like to see the thing before I
publish it....
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:25:43 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: Re: Minneapolis
In-Reply-To: <POETICS%96041214191004@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> from "Henry Gould"
at Apr 12, 96 02:03:11 pm
I've noticed that people living in California are particulary subject to
that form of imaginative disability which limits magic to some
place the sun shines all the time. I've actually found magic in
Buffalo, of all places. Although Lorrine Niedecker writes from
Wisconsin rather than Minnesota, the magic is much the same. The
problem with the mall thing is endemic to America, no? Certainly not
one state or another. Maria's disenchantment seems to me deeply
personal, and hence neither refutable nor generalizable. The magic,
folks, is where you live. If you can't see it, maybe you're not living
there.
As for _Fargo_, how is it hollow? I thought it beautifully addressed
American culture without slipping into Tarrantino's slick emptiness.
Mike
mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:29:42 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: More on Malls
In-Reply-To: <960413132427_512858314@emout10.mail.aol.com> from "Bob Holman"
at Apr 13, 96 01:24:29 pm
Glenn Gould loved to hang out in malls for their magic. Do americans
know who Glenn Gould is?
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 11:47:01 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: Re: Minneapolis
At 2:25 PM 4/13/96, Michael Boughn wrote:
>I've noticed that people living in California are particulary subject to
>that form of imaginative disability
Michael,
I know there's a word that applies to people who make these kinds of pissy
generalizations--it ends with "ist" I'm sure, but I just can't figure out
what that word is.
Dodie
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:49:56 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Mary Rising Higgins <HigginsMR@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: More on Malls
of course! one of my perfectly crazed heroes.
mrh
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:02:16 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Lisa Samuels <lsr3h@FARADAY.CLAS.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Subject: Re: More on Malls
In-Reply-To: <199604131829.OAA22876@epas.utoronto.ca> from "Michael Boughn" at
Apr 13, 96 02:29:42 pm
hmm hmm i'd like to answer you but hmm hmm
i'm playing the piano.
ls
>
> Glenn Gould loved to hang out in malls for their magic. Do americans
> know who Glenn Gould is?
>
> Mike
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 12:16:49 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Abu-Jamal
In-Reply-To: <199604130406.AAA08669@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
for any who are interested -- a new journal out of the Comp. Lit.
department at UCLA titled _Suitcase_ includes a translation into English
of the short article Derrida published in France last Summer as a plea
for Mumia Abu-Jamal --
a couple of other worthwhile articles as well, though the fiction &
poetry in this new mag. leaves much to be desired --
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 12:25:12 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: braindeed
In-Reply-To: <199604130406.AAA08669@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
Can't say that I've experienced such a startling shift while passing back
and forth between the writing of verse and the writing of criticism --
On the other hand -- trying to make the shift from publishing one to
publishing the other is quite likely to give you whiplash --
yours,
the injured party
(the inured partie?)
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 12:32:07 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: self-reverential authorless goop
In-Reply-To: <199604130406.AAA08669@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
Ah, but Pirandello swam those seas long before Foucault, as did Quixote
(see Book II), as did friend Shandy, and for that matter, Homeless Homer --
six citations in search of a quote --
Tell me, Ramon Fernandez, if you can,
Why this blessed rage for authors?
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:54:18 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Alexander <chax@MTN.ORG>
Subject: Re: More on Malls
>Glenn Gould loved to hang out in malls for their magic. Do americans
>know who Glenn Gould is?
>
>Mike
yes
and a good friend of mine years ago in oklahoma (to me more magical, but who
can say why we think such things?) was writing a dissertation on malls as
the gathering places of america, socially meaningful, what that said about
us, etc. (this in 1976 or 1977, when such an idea was a little more novel
than it is today). But it strikes me that at that time, and perhaps still
now, part of their representation of america was right on specifically
because malls did not have poetry events. Can a mall be a mall, or should it
be a poetry mall? I don't have the answer to that one. The huge Mall of
America in Mpls has a large amusement park (Camp Snoopy) in the middle, and
as the father of two less-than-ten-year-olds, I went through the entry and
to the rides several times before I ever went into a store there. I think
the poetry readings should be under the large inflated snoopy dog.
with glenn gould playing
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 17:37:27 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: - Kim Tedrow <RoseRead@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: More on Malls
Years ago, I heard Louise Erdrich lecture on America and its "sense of
place"--in essence (altho I couldn't quote verbatim), she put forth that we
are essentially nomadic, going where the jobs are, and it's brand names and
chain stores/restaurants that give us a sense of place--i.e. a MacDonalds in
Minnesota looks just like a MacDonalds here in Maryland. I can also think of
Malls in the same way.
More specifically, for example, was how brand names can also tell a lot about
character's (she was speaking mostly of fiction, but I am reminded of Joe's
script and his use of generic Cheerios <grin>) class, disposition, etc. The
difference between a guy who orders a Pabst beer and a guy who orders a
Heineken.
All this talk about regionalism and culture takes on an interesting twist in
this light, at least to me. What things are the same, what things can we
*really* attach to a specific place? Does it mean anything that I and "SPAM"
have the same home town? Am I now a part of the mainstream because last
weekend I went into WalMart for the first time in my entire life? Or that my
daughter point blank refuses to accept generic Cheerios?
Happy Saturday,
Kim
roseread@aol.com
>>>>>and a good friend of mine years ago in oklahoma (to me more magical, but
who
can say why we think such things?) was writing a dissertation on malls as
the gathering places of america, socially meaningful, what that said about
us, etc. (this in 1976 or 1977, when such an idea was a little more novel
than it is today). <<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 16:39:32 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Sharon DiMaria <sdimaria@INDIRECT.COM>
Subject: Re: psychic geography
In-Reply-To: <199604122356.QAA26695@nemesis.azlink.com>
On Fri, 12 Apr 1996, Sheila E. Murphy wrote in part:
>
> It seems impossible to paint the Midwest in any way that people would agree
> upon. Or any other part of the US. But one thing DOES seem certain: Some
> geographic locations tend to be conducive to one's OWN physique,
> temperament, and God knows what else. And if I knew more about psychic
> geography, I'd quote chap and verse.
I find the relationship between psyche and landscape compelling. Barry
Lopez in _Crossing Open Ground_ writes that "the interior landscape
responds to the character and subtlety of an exterior landscape; the
shape of the individual mind is affected by land as it is by genes." I
agree with Lopez in many of the ways landscape affects the individual.
However, I think it too simplistic to assume that landscape alone affects
psyche and that a "cold and flat" landscape (as some have decribed
Minnesota) could equate only to "bleak and banal." Would terms like
turbulent, immense, mysterious, profound, extensive, & concealed be
accurate as well? Don't some define the great plains as an expansive
inland sea?
I have spent most of my life in the southwest and remember a time, not
too long ago, when the SW was considered an intellectual desert,
inhabited by naive peons (de albanil) (of course, in may case, that was
true). I suspect Minnesota suffers some of the same misunderstanding.
I also understand that the rumor is being circulated that FARGO was
actually filmed in Iowa (probably advanced by Garrison Keillor).
I know I'll hear from MRH on this one.
SAM
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 19:25:47 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Leddy <cfml@EIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Elmslie
In-Reply-To: <AD6B42095E@113hum9.humnet.ucla.edu>
The Kenward Elmslie interview you're thinking of might be the one that
appeared in New American Writing several issues back.
Michael Leddy / Charleston IL (East-Central Illinois, or, Out of Nowhere)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 08:31:07 +0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Schuchat <schuchat@ARC.ARC.ORG.TW>
Subject: Re: More on Malls
In-Reply-To: <199604131829.OAA22876@epas.utoronto.ca>
On Sat, 13 Apr 1996, Michael Boughn wrote:
> Glenn Gould loved to hang out in malls for their magic. Do americans
> know who Glenn Gould is?
>
> Mike
>
Yes
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 17:51:00 PDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steve Carll <sjcarll@SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: More on Malls
At 02:29 PM 4/13/96 -0400, Michael Boughn wrote:
>Glenn Gould loved to hang out in malls for their magic. Do americans
>know who Glenn Gould is?
A few of us do, but we're ostracized as "Canadian wannabes" if we admit it.
Just kidding,
Steve
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 17:57:51 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: Re: Minneapolis
So this afternoon I went to SF's upscale farmer's market down by the Bay.
This one stand had these beautiful strawberries for a whopping $2.00 a
basket. As I was guiltily paying for mine this guy appeared beside me with
this giant 35 mm camera and photography paraphernalia around his neck. He
balked at the price of the strawberries, as I did, then also decided to buy
some, exclaiming, "You never see them that red in Minnesota." I replied,
"They're not at their peak, but they're pretty good." (They could have
been a bit sweeter.) He then said to me quite passionately, "In Minnesota
they would kill for these."
I appreciated his passion, and yes, his magic. But at the same time I felt
like the poetics list was trailing me through the streets of San Francisco.
Dodie
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 18:35:42 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Stephen Galen Cope <scope@UCSCB.UCSC.EDU>
Subject: malls
It All Began in Minnesota...
"The Architect. In July of 1938, Victor Gruen came to America from Austria
with $8 in his pocket and little more than his architect's T square as his
luggage. In his homeland he had championed innovative public housing and had
just begun to get good architectural commissions from Vienna department
stores when Hitler's army invaded. Fleeing to the United States, he brought
an idea inspired by the markets of medieval Austrian and Swiss towns he had
visited as a young man and by the stately Galleria Vittorio Emanuele II in
Milan: the covered shopping mall. It all began in Minnesota in the mid-50s,
when Gruen was commissioned to build a shopping center. He constructed a
central courtyard equidistant from two department stores. The result,
Southdale, opened on October 8, 1956. Its one giant roof meant that
construction costs for individual stores could be reduced, making the whole
complex cheaper to build. So many developers hired Gruen that his firm soon
had offices in six major cities. He was called in to replan whole downtowns.
At the height of his influence, the Shah of Iran hired him to redesign
Teheran. Soon a new generation of developers was building on Gruen's ideas,
combining the mall with historical themes in old Eastern cities--Quincy
Market in Boston, Harborplace in Baltimore and South Street Seaport in New
York."
-Stephen Cope
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 18:57:13 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: MAXINE CHERNOFF <maxpaul@SFSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: More on Malls
In-Reply-To: <199604131829.OAA22876@epas.utoronto.ca>
Dear MB: Of course Americans know who Glenn Gould is. Do Canadians know
who Frank Sinatra is?
Cheers,
Maxine Chernoff
On Sat, 13 Apr 1996, Michael Boughn wrote:
> Glenn Gould loved to hang out in malls for their magic. Do americans
> know who Glenn Gould is?
>
> Mike
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 19:03:19 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: MAXINE CHERNOFF <maxpaul@SFSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Elmslie
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960413192215.9891C-100000@ux1>
Dear Michael Leddy: You're right. A very good interview of KE appeared
in NAW #8/9, a double issue. It's still available for $8 from NAW, 369
Molino, Mill Valley CA 94941. Did you know that Kenward Elmlsie's song
"LOvewise" as recorded by Nat King Cole was a hit?
Best,
Maxine Chernoff
On Sat, 13 Apr 1996, Michael Leddy wrote:
> The Kenward Elmslie interview you're thinking of might be the one that
> appeared in New American Writing several issues back.
>
> Michael Leddy / Charleston IL (East-Central Illinois, or, Out of Nowhere)
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 14:03:51 GMT+1300
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Wystan Curnow <w.curnow@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland
Subject: Re: malls
Comments: To: scope@UCSCB.UCSC.EDU
:
MALLS! MALLS! MALLS!
.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 19:18:32 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jeffrey W. Timmons" <mnamna@IMAP1.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: malls
Comments: To: Wystan Curnow <w.curnow@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
In-Reply-To: <5A147E61F54@engnov1.auckland.ac.nz>
molls molls molls!
jeffrey timmons
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 19:31:08 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jeffrey W. Timmons" <mnamna@IMAP1.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Minneapolis
In-Reply-To: <199604131825.OAA22534@epas.utoronto.ca>
On Sat, 13 Apr 1996, Michael Boughn wrote:
"The magic, folks, is where you live. If you can't see it, maybe you're
not living there."
been mulling this provincialism regionalism magic thing over for a few
days. with michaels post and kims--that asked what we can attach to a
specific place--i am still deeper. my sense of geography and magic stems
from a fondness for thoreau and his investment in the internal and
external landscape. yes magic is where you live probably how you live
and simply in living finding magic. but beyond that and probably
implicit in all of this is the idea that one be sensitive to place
location landscape region etc enough to let it define itself?
i hate to admit it but ive found magic at 7-11 taco bell and borders.
with nothing profound to say
other than thoreau is not boring
even when he seems like it
jeffrey timmons
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:19:41 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Sharon DiMaria <sdimaria@INDIRECT.COM>
Subject: Re: malls
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960413191816.18190A@email1.asu.edu>
Mauls! Mauls! Mauls!
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:28:43 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Thomas Bell <tbjn@WELL.COM>
Subject: Re: malls or themeparks
In-Reply-To: <5A147E61F54@engnov1.auckland.ac.nz>
Poetry Themeparks: POETRYCAL
DIZZYPOETRYWORLD
SIX FLAGS OVER THE CANTOS
LANGUAGE THEMELESS CITY
WHITMAN VILLAGE
On Sun, 14 Apr 1996, Wystan Curnow wrote:
> :
> MALLS! MALLS! MALLS!
> .
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 22:46:55 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Stephen Galen Cope <scope@UCSCB.UCSC.EDU>
Subject: Re: malls
Incidentally, I've heard of a mall in Montana in front of which stands
a statue depicting a terrified hunter in the hands of an angry bear...
Sharon DiMaria writes:
Mauls! Mauls! Mauls!
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 08:02:21 +0200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "William M. Northcutt" <William.Northcutt@UNI-BAYREUTH.DE>
Subject: malls
Glenn Gould was a mall.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 13:30:56 +0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Schuchat <schuchat@ARC.ARC.ORG.TW>
Subject: My recent trip to Tibet (fwd)
For something slightly different, where there are no malls.
(from the Tibetan studies list)
Several members have requested that I report on my recent trip to
Tibet. In late February to early March I made my third trip to
central Tibet in the past two years. I went with a group on Marck,
1994, and by myself as an official "group of one," with guide and
driver, in December, 1994, and last month. My goal is to travel in
Tibet once each year, in my role as Dhief Librarian of the Oriental
Division of the New York Public Library. In each case, I stay for
about seven to ten days, and map out an itinerary which takes me to
temples and monasteries previously not visited, in addition to
returning to certain sites. My particular interest is temples, and I
have written a book, The Temple: Meeting Place of Heaven and Earth
(Thames and Hudson, 1993). I have written scholarly articles on
Biblical temples, and on Borobudur. A report of my December, 1994
trip to central to Tibet appeared, with my photos, in the April 9,
1995 New York Times Sunday Travel section.
On my most recent rip to Tibet I intended to visit two of the temple
covered by Vitali in his book Early Temples of Central Tibeta: Kachu
and Chung Riwoche. I was unable to visit the former, because my guide
did not know that such a place existed, and the second because we were
turned back by an ice-bound road, west of Lhatse. The alternative to
the first, Kachu, was one of my most memorable Tibetan experiences,
staying overnight in the Samye monastery guest house, and getting up
before dawn to join Tibetan pilgrims on the journey up the mountain
above Samye to the cave meditation site, Samye Chimpu. this was an
extraordinary experience--both Samye; monatery, with its village, and
the memitation site. All four of the great stupas are now restored
and fully functional--the white, green, red and black--at the corners
of the main Samye temple--the Utse. They are magnificent structures.
I had to go out in the middle of the night. There was a (full?) moon.
The stupa nearest to where I was standing on the third floor of the
gues house was the white one. With no other surface light, on a
brilliant, bitterly cold moonlit night, the structure shown like
polished marble. It is one of the most unforgettable sights I have
every seen.
To reach Samye Chimpu, we left Samye about 6:30 a.m. in a jeep,
driving one hour before reching the end of the track. From there the
ascent to the chapel at the top of Samye Chimpu took me two hours--it
was my first full day in Tibet. Victor Chan has an excellent
description of the site--Tibet Handbook. There are about 150 Nyingma
monks in the caves. One monk we met is 80 years old, his female
companion 60. She said she had been there with him for 30 years. On
the way down, we met a 13 year old monk (goint up) from Kham, who told
us he had been a monk for one year.
As an alternative to Chung Riwoche, we visited another of the
famous "Kumbum" type temples in the region of Lhatse, in this case
rGyang (called by my guide Gyang Kumbum--Victor Chan Gyang Bumoche
Kumbum), in the plain of Lhatse, described, with early photos, by
Roberto Vitali in the aforementioned book. This temple was massively
destroyed by Red Guards during the Cultural Revolution. It is
difficult to imagine the extent to which these people went to destroy
these monuments. As I understand, they used dynamite in this case.
It is a total rubble heap, the mass giving a vague resemblance to the
photos published by Vitali. Everywhere there are pieces of tiles,
small "Tsa-tsas," various other building and decorative elements,
mostly broken or smashed, some intact.
Nearby, there is a small, two-monk monastery, Gelugpa, named
Gyangmar Gompa. We met and were guided around by the young, 16 year
old monk who was in residence on that day. This small monastery has a
wonderful Ghonkang.
Otherwise, I visited Lhase, where my particular interest is the
magnificent Jokhang, Gyantse, where I visited the Kumbum and Palkor
Chode, in each case for the third time, and Shalu (second time). My
guide took me into the home of his Barkhor merchant friends directly
overlooking the Barkhor, and for my first visit, he took me to the
Meru Nyingba monastery, behind the Jokhang within the Barkhor, which
is controlled by monks from Nechung monastery (see Victor Chan, pp.
119-120.
On each of these trips, I talk at length with my guides regarding
the plight of the Tibetan people under Chinese occupation. I have
many notes on these conversations--I am constantly asking questions.
I am simply going to report here several of these, with no particular
order or organizing principle behind them. I have much more, but
don't want to make this posting much longer. I have some doubt about
some of these statements, based on my experience there, but won't go
into that now:
Old Tibet is intact and traditional inside the "Lingu."
Geshe education is at a very high level in Tibet (reported to me by
two guides, independently)
The Tibetans and Chinese live totally separately. The Chinese, in
general, do not bother to learn Tibetan.
The Jokhang is "Tibetan", not simply a Chinese front for tourist.
It is easier for young men who want to become monks to get into the
Jokhnag or Potala, rather than into remote monasteries.
Tibetans look forward to free elections to choose their political
leaders, and view the Dalai Lama as their spiritual leader.
Tibetans accept only the Dalai Lama approved Panchen lama
candidate, and will never accept the Chinese candidate.
There is massive unemployment among Tibetan youg men. They are
"last hired, first fired."
Beer is made readily available to Tibetan youth, costing less to
purchase than soda pop.
My recent guide said that he and his friends discuss mainly only
one thing: politics.
I am going to stop here. I can go on and on, but don't want to tax
the patience of any of you.
Sincerely,
John M. Lundquist
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 23:21:15 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Christopher L. Filkins" <filch@POBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: More on Malls
Charles Alexander wrote at 3:54 pm on the day that is today:
>
>and a good friend of mine years ago in oklahoma (to me more magical, but who
>can say why we think such things?) was writing a dissertation on malls as
>the gathering places of america, socially meaningful, what that said about
>us, etc. (this in 1976 or 1977, when such an idea was a little more novel
>than it is today). But it strikes me that at that time, and perhaps still
>now, part of their representation of america was right on specifically
>because malls did not have poetry events. Can a mall be a mall, or should it
>be a poetry mall? I don't have the answer to that one. The huge Mall of
>America in Mpls has a large amusement park (Camp Snoopy) in the middle, and
>as the father of two less-than-ten-year-olds, I went through the entry and
>to the rides several times before I ever went into a store there. I think
>the poetry readings should be under the large inflated snoopy dog.
>
>with glenn gould playing
Actually there is a mall south of here which contains a coffee shop which
has poetry readings every night of the week. It's sort of a mallrat / punk
hangout from what I understand. Never been there but I hear the vibe is
cool if not the poetry. They do a lot of publication parties for local
rags and every few months throw 24 hour readings to raise money for various
charities.
Don't know if they play Glenn Gould between sets.
As for malls - if the industry organ can be trusted not one new mall
development has been planned for almost 10 yrs now. There are a few
sporadic cases of malls being built or still to be built but these have
been in the pipeline for well over a decade - held up over zoning, traffic,
capitalization, etc.
The big thing now is refurbishing and redesigning the existing malls to
compete with downtown revitalization centers and of course the ubiquitious
Dr. Strangelove, cough (excuse me) I mean Target/Walmart,etc. which has
completely revitalized the ailing strip mall industry.
your friendly spokesman for industry
christopher
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 02:48:48 -0400
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Mary Rising Higgins <HigginsMR@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: psychic geography
Here! Hear! i shout from a concealed...location. i've been locked in my
therapist's office since viewing Fargo...i thought some of my old home movie
footage had been stolen for use in the film.
mrh
Go, sam!
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 03:36:45 -0400
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Mary Rising Higgins <HigginsMR@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: More on Malls
How do you buy cute throwaways while hearing someone give his LIFE to a
musical composition?
I [("believe")] I'll never hear Glenn Gould in a shopping mall...
mrh
i liked that maul maul maul moll moll moll stuff!
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 06:38:09 -0700
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: malls
A further use for malls: When I wanted to put together a collective
reading of the whole of Tjanting at an underground Muni Metro site -- a
New Langton Arts event of many moons ago -- I was able to get
permission by having two members of the Public Utilities Commission
tell the head of Muni that saying yes was not a career limiting idea,
but he didn't believe it until the owner of the Cannery, Chris Martin,
told him he'd be glad to have the reading there if Muni didn't want it.
The Church Street Station was a much better site, and we were glad to
have it (and we did better than the trains: a project ten and one half
hour event came in at just 10:32). The Muni chief actually stayed for
about 2 hours and I think it may be the only poetry he's ever heard.
Ron Silliman
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 06:13:52 -0700
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: More on Malls
I would take it that anyone who has read Benjamin on the arcades would
take malls quite seriously as a social (as well as aesthetic) space.
One walk through any "historic" district in a city that has been
touristized -- say the Left Bank in Paris -- will show instantly how
pervasive the mall is as an organizing principle. Meaghan Morris and
others have done some pretty interesting work on this.
Dan Davidson used to go to Nordstroms in SF to write -- he liked the
live piano, which often enough is playing something like Satie -- plus
the public/private ambience as I recall. Don't know if he still does
this.
I live about 15 minutes from the King of Prussia Mall (which David is
quite right, loudly trumpets the fact that it has more shopping space
than the Mall of America, tho not the theme park) and in fact visit it
about once a week. Gene's Books there is an independent that does
reliably carry Sun & Moon, Black Sparrow and Talisman productions, tho
it's idea of Nat'l Poultry Month has been a single table display with
Heaney, Moyers and Holman prominently figured.
Ron Silliman
rsillima@ix.netcom.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 08:58:48 -0700
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM>
Subject: Ars Longa, Collective Memory Brevis
Hey guyzies -
Now that the tax job from hell is winding down, I've taken some time to
actually look at the massive stack of mail from the poetics list that's
piled up over the last six weeks or so. Someday I may even get around to
reading the stack of books & mags that's been accumulating for even longer.
But I have to be in to work by noon, so that'll have to wait.
Anyway, I thought it was remarkable (obviously) that there seemed to be no
mention of the passing of Larry LaPrise last week. As is true of many
artists, composer/writer LaPrise never really received the recognition that
was due him. But the lack of attention to his death here at poetics was
all the more saddening because about a year and a half ago there was a very
active dialog on one of his works on the list.
I think the discussion grew out of the context of Pessoa. Someone (Ron
Silliman, I think, but I don't remember all the details) noted that a
translation of Pessoa had appropriated, without attribution, one of
LaPrise's best known lines. There followed a lengthy & often amusing
interchange that rivaled the "renga" in its longevity, if not in the length
of any single posting. (Which reminds me, does George Bowering still read
the list?)
Like I said, I don't remember it all, but you could look it up in the
archives if you were so inclined.
So, in consideration of his connection to the poetics list, I think it's
appropriate to request a moment of silence in memory of Larry LaPrise,
composer, writer, performer, whose most famous work was, of course, "The
Hokey Pokey."
Bests
Herb Levy
herb@eskimo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 09:15:43 -0400
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
awberry anecdote. some of the minnesotans i know
wouldn't buy those ripe strawberries cuz they'd feel "grabby," and buy
instead the less beautiful ones! which granted, can be a charmingly
eccentric trait in an individual but as a generalized cultural attitude
becomes unbearably oppressive. i think it's about time to retire this
POETRICKS motif (MN, i mean) but not before pointing out that the midwest's
most passionate defenders on this list have coastal e-addresses, and most of
its detractors seem to live in...you guessed it, the great broekn-heartland.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 09:16:21 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
s of thoreau, and i can't resist pointing out that
thoreau lived in...massachusetts, and hung out in the most "elite" of
intellectual circles. so if we're gonna use him as a reference point in
discussions of regionalism, let's put him in proper context. i'd love to
hang out w/ thoreau, in thoreau country where i grew up (walks around walden
were a frequent family activity). well, i can see this subject is not a good
one for me to dwell on, it was good for me to have my say but i'd like to
move beyond it internally. i'd love to love the place i live...
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 10:37:05 -0700
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
At 9:15 AM 4/14/96, Maria Damon wrote:
> i think it's about time to retire this
>POETRICKS motif (MN, i mean)
Never, Maria, never!
x,
Dodie
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 11:54:17 -0700
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: MAXINE CHERNOFF <maxpaul@SFSU.EDU>
Subject: minnesota
I've lived in the midwest most of my life and probably have some sense of
it. In the early days of the republic, the Ohio River Valley was the far
west, thus the name Northwestern University. It was a place of
adventure, romance (especially for German immigrants, who had read Karl
May's novels), and wildness. But the east and west coasts were settled
earlier (1600s, not 1800s) and could rightfully make a claim for their
deeper culture. Unthinking bias against the region occurs all the time,
especially among people who have recently abandoned it. I was at a
symposium in NYC at which the film critic John Simon declaimed against
Siskel and Ebert because they were from the midwest. Great leap of logic
there. Siskel & Ebert are from the midwest; the midwest is mediocre;
therefore their film criticism is mediocre.
Minnesota and Wisconsin of the midwest states are the most liberal by
their history, often as liberal as Maria Damon's beloved Massachusetts.
Minneapolis prides itself on its support for the arts, and in fact Coffee
House Press, Grey Wolf, and Milkweed Editions owe some of their success
(all are among the largest small presses, with in excess of $300,000
yearly budget) to Minnesota foundations and arts councils. I would
imagine that CHAX has at some point benefited from this money. Coffee
House moved from Iowa City in the 1980s specifically because of such
financial support.
The poetry capitals of the country are New York City and San Francisco.
For the avant-garde and the rest, little else counts except for regional
academic sites where creative writing jobs can be had. Of what use is it
to residents of the coasts to proclaim the superiority of their region?
It's no different from ethnocentrism--a small-minded bias. I saw a post
recently re: "low-rent surrealism." Let's think about that phrase, "low
rent." What are we, the high-rent vanguard?
FARGO was an exercise in putting down the yokels. OK, so the Coens were
raised in Minneapolis suburbs and the script was written from that
experience. And the pregnant sheriff is finally so relentless that the
whole culture she represents comes in for left-handed praise. But it's
fashionable now to put down the simple white folks, and being of that
rural kind--state college, not ivy league--I don't sympathize.
Paul Hoover
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 13:12:56 -0700
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Sheila E. Murphy" <semurphy@AZLINK.COM>
Subject: Place
This discussion of place, beginning with that American alternative Tigress
and Euphrates, the Midwest, suggests that there's a lot about this that
resounds for people. Just another two cents on this:
I never was "much for" geography, until I'd lived here in broiler country
for at least ten years (it's been almost 20 now). Never have I found a
place so appealing as the desert. For years of reading work by people
obviously moved by geography, I couldn't get what it was that perked them up
so much about the land and the accompanying sizzles, glories, whatever.
Arizona has this splendid way of leaving one alone. I love that. Even deep
in the heart of (four brisk clapping sounds) Phoenix, there's this
contagious little reverence that permeates this web of surfaces. You don't
get very deep into the ground. But there's an irony to that. You do
because you don't. In any case, it works with this post-incubator resident
quite well. Quiet and such. I did a collection many years ago that is
scheduled to see print eventually - called HEAT A FORM OF PRIVACY LIKE SNOW.
In that way, a resolution of sorts bringing together flavors both Midwestern
and Arizonan (intentional misparallels).
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 16:20:22 -0500
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jonathan Brannen <jbrannen@INFOLINK.MORRIS.MN.US>
Subject: Re: More on Malls
Glenn Gould also committed suicide.
Jonathan
>Glenn Gould loved to hang out in malls for their magic. Do americans
>know who Glenn Gould is?
>
>Mike
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 17:30:00 -0400
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: minnesota
paul hoover: i know all about mn's liberalism; it's about making everyone be
"equal, just like us, as long as they act like us." difference makes folks
very uncomfortable. i think perhaps, as i've pointed out before, the coen
brothers were jewish in minneapolis. this is different from being christian
in minneapolis. bob dylan was jewish in hibbing, an even rougher place to be
jewish. he wouldn't even play in the state until, i think, less than10 yrs
ago, though his brother and mother etc live here, and some of his kids went
to college here. again, these folks aren't putting down mn out of some
knee-jerk prejudice. they were deeply wounded by it. granted, lots of people
come east or west from the midwest and feel put down by IT --i've had that
experience myself recently, when friends' parents react with puzzlement and
some distaste when hearing i teach at U of MN (my stanford credentials bring
out their warmth and interest). but please, stop insisting that my painful
experiences are due to some moral failing on my part --that moral failing
being that i had the arrogance and grandiosity to have grown up in Newton MA,
which shaped me a certain way, to expect certain things out of life. it
resonates too closely with the vibe i've been living with for 7 years,
namely, that there's something wrong --morally wrong -w/ people who feel too
much, say too much, express themselves in strong terms, etc.
maria d
ps i hope this interaction doesn't interfere w/ any future professional
contact we might have. i have no reason to hold anything against you except
your conviction that i'm evil because i've had a hard time adjusting to the
midwest.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 17:53:53 -0400
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Bill Luoma <Maz881@AOL.COM>
Subject: There's a DUI heading east on route 46
Often I am permitted to return to Chris Stroffolino:
"Are we slumming it in form heaven." Thanks for a great reading @ ear
chris.
The comments on DUI have tended to focus on its formal/cynical ironic unfunny
stance. I mean they might be trying to say something (positive content).
And that positive content may apply to a range of random communities. Why
not apply it and see what you find.
>> bang flag
thanks again chris
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 15:43:29 -0700
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: Re: minnesota
At 5:30 PM 4/14/96, Maria Damon wrote:
>paul hoover: i know all about mn's liberalism; it's about making everyone be
>"equal, just like us, as long as they act like us." difference makes folks
>very uncomfortable.
<snip>
>it resonates too closely with the vibe i've been living with for 7 years,
>namely, that there's something wrong --morally wrong -w/ people who feel too
>much, say too much, express themselves in strong terms, etc.
Maria,
This is Dodie here to support you. Your experiences mirror mine growing up
in the greater Chicago area--even though I am as waspy as they come. In
the world I grew up in anybody with difference was basically squashed like
a bug. I could never get down the acceptable artsy persona of kooky but
not challenging.
Most of my difference centered around gender stuff--I was a loud brassy
tomboy, then a lesbian from gradeschool on. When I got to college at IU
and finally met some other lesbians, they had a rigid agenda as to how
lesbians should behave--I remember a group of them slashing the tires of a
woman who they thought wasn't politically correct. Needless to say it soon
became clear that I wasn't able to be a proper lesbian any more than I was
able to be a normal high school girl. I found myself hanging out mostly
with a group of wild young gay men because they seemed to have enough of a
tolerance for difference that I could have a good time.
I could go on and on here. But my advice for surving the Midwest, Maria,
is to get yourself a bland husband and a couple of babies and learn to keep
your mouth shut.
Dodie
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:49:47 GMT+1300
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: Re: malls
Mells, mells, mells -- as in Pell Mell or Pall Mall, short-a Malls
-- but in NZ English: mauls, mauls, mauls is correct, as in U.S. I
guess. 2 in Auckland with big black grand pianos but not played by
Michael Houston.
Tony Green,
e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:57:11 GMT+1300
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Wystan Curnow <w.curnow@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland
Subject: Re: More on Malls
Comments: To: filch@POBOX.COM
Dear Chris,
Good to know that. The writing is in the Mall.
But the Mall is dead? It has struck me that artists use media
and technology that's either coming or going, that the economy has
chucked --black & white photography, letter press etc--or is getting
into--internet etc. Last night I ripped out of the newspaper, reference
to the death of the man who coined the expression, or invented the
concept? Have to check.
The word Mall is from Pall Mall I think. This was a grassy
area in London before it became a shopping street (C18th?) where the
game 'pall- mall' was played a ball game in which the ball was mauled as
with a mallet but not pell-mell as with a pellet on the floor.
Its history belongs with that of Arcades, department stores,
also with Expos, Panoramas, movie theatres, theme parks etc. There's a
recent: book by Anne Friedberg called Window Shopping, cinema and the
postmodern, which has some good info. but hohum theory ( how shopping
gave rise to the 'mobile' gaze--freed from the 'panoptic gaze', spawned
the flaneuse, leading right along now to the 'virtual' gaze of the movie
goer, that kind of thing.)
In Japan, where the art gallery is a western idea, as is art
itself, galleries are often in department stores. I was engrossed some
time back by a talk an Australian video artist gave of his experience as
an artist-in-resident at the Tokyo department store. There was a big
screen on the outside of the building and one inside as well where he
could show the works he was making in the studio they provided...
Wystan
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 19:07:57 -0500
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Alexander <chax@MTN.ORG>
Subject: Re: minnesota
Paul, I certainly appreciate what you have to say about the midwest &
minnesota, & in fact on certain days I absolutely love it here. living 10
blocks from a beautiful lake, five blocks from a fine waterfall in a park
which is almost as close as the urban area comes to wilderness, and just a
mile from the intersection of the mississippi & minnesota rivers is pretty
thrilling.
but on the following matter to set the record straight:
______________________________________________
says Paul Hoover:
and in fact Coffee
House Press, Grey Wolf, and Milkweed Editions owe some of their success
(all are among the largest small presses, with in excess of $300,000
yearly budget) to Minnesota foundations and arts councils. I would
imagine that CHAX has at some point benefited from this money.
_______________________________________________________
no this is not true at all in terms of chax, and in fact, in one meeting
with the larger presses when I suggested literary coalition meetings include
smaller organizations, one staff member from a larger press made a statement
equating size with "significance." And the foundations aren't particularly
interested in very small organizations with budgets under 100,000 & who
can't show that their books reach thousands of people. The exception here is
the Jerome Foundation, and Chax probably will receive money from that source
in the future if we stay here. And eventually I think the other foundations
might come around, too. The people in the art programs at the foundations
are, for the most part, more open and enlightened about avant-garde (or
whatever one calls it) poetics and other arts than people at the more
established arts organizations (with exceptions, of course). And in some
cases of course there is even overlap in aesthetics. Coffee House Press,
directed by Allan Kornblum, is in the next year publishing the collected
writings of Paul Metcalf in a couple of volumes, and Chax published Metcalf
first more than a decade ago, and again 9 years ago.
Also, I believe that all the other organizations Paul Hoover mentions have
budgets now in excess of 500,000; and Milkweed's budget may in fact be in
excess of one million, or at least has in its best years of late come very
close to that number.
One potentional problem here is that the literary scene is, to the public
mind, absolutely defined by the four largest presses (the four Paul names
plus New Rivers Press) and the writers' organization The Loft; whereas there
are more than 25 other presses/writers' organizations/etc., which in total
have as much (in terms of quantity) to offer as the large orgs, and in terms
of quality, well, . . . that can be judged quite differently by each
individual. I go into this in some detail in a two-part essay in a new
review publication here called Rain Taxi. If anyone wants more information
about that publication, send a query to raintaxi@aol.com
I disagree with notions that culture is any more advanced on either coast,
necessarily. But I also think that when Paul talks about Minnesota
liberalism, his words are more accurate when thinking about the politics
than about liberalism with regard to lifestyles, customs, and other
personal/social characteristics. From where I sit the midwest, and Minnesota
in particular, is a mixed bag. I don't want to or mean to put down the
"simple white folk" as Paul calls them, but I also don't agree with the
prevailing local sense that this is any kind of mecca, particularly for
literature. But I do think lots of people are working at the art here,
including at whatever avant end that art reaches toward, and I truly
appreciate that work.
charles alexander
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 20:34:37 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From: Emily Lloyd <emilyl@EROLS.COM>
Subject: Re: Dodie's mn post
Dodie, you wrote:
>Most of my difference centered around gender stuff--I was a loud brassy
>tomboy, then a lesbian from gradeschool on. When I got to college at IU
>and finally met some other lesbians, they had a rigid agenda as to how
>lesbians should behave--I remember a group of them slashing the tires of a
>woman who they thought wasn't politically correct. Needless to say it soon
>became clear that I wasn't able to be a proper lesbian any more than I was
>able to be a normal high school girl. I found myself hanging out mostly
>with a group of wild young gay men because they seemed to have enough of a
>tolerance for difference that I could have a good time.
Um, eek, that's my autobio in a handbasket. Now I'm petrified I'm going to
end up married. <grin>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Emily Lloyd emilyl@erols.com
"It takes time to make queer people"--g. stein
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 20:56:10 EDT
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From: James Perez <jmp2p@UVA.PCMAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Elmslie
with all this talk about the Pavemet lyrics, make sure to check out the
Silver Jews, featuring two members of Pavement and the King Jew (D. Berman).
If you want to see entire throw-a-way tracks (maybe a new way to say lo-fi)
check out the Arizona Album. The King Jew just graduated with his MFA from
UMASS, so he's a card carrying poet, not one of those poet-lyricists (you
might have seen his work in the Baffler).
James Perez
jmp2p@virginia.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 21:38:58 -0500
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From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: minnesota
Well, I've never been in Minnesota....I DID however try to live
in Massachusetts on two different ocassions (the summer of 1985,
when I lived on the cape and worked for MASSPIRG and 9 months in
1992-3 in Amherst)--both experiences were fiascos....The image of
great "liberal" MASSACHUSETTS (the only state that voted for McGovern,
etc) turned out to be a sham. What I found on a personal daily bais
(I mean basis) was more of the NIMBY type liberal, the "love me love
me love me I'm a liberal"---very white, very witch burner decendents....
But, to whom it may concern, I hope this doesn't effect any professional
relationship we might have....I do like Jonathon Richman, for instance
(and I love the replacements and prince too....) Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 21:45:47 -0500
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From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Elmslie
Dear James Perez---
Are you in touch with David Berman? I knew him briefly at Amherst....
He, in fact, turned me onto PAVEMENT as well as his own band....
But I lost touch, but if you have his address, or know his whereabouts,
I'd appreciate it. You may backchannel it (if you wish). Thanks,
Chris S.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 21:57:20 -0500
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From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Often I am permitted to return to Tom Raworth
Tonight, in a reading available on casette from Chris, "EAP", Funkhouser
at chez Joris/Peyrafitte here in Albany, Tom Raworth read from his new
forthcoming ROOF Book, "A CLean And Well Lit Place" (I think that's the
title). As usual, I understand, he read very fast, very dense---
It seems quite different than the TOTTERING STATE (and pre) work....
the only line that comes to mind (I didn't take notes) was
"deluded by false hopes" (again, I might be misquoting)....but it's
great work, and I can't wait for the book.....
cs
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 14:03:11 GMT+1300
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From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: art in dept stores
re Wystan's comments on art in dept stores. Australasia has a tradition of dept store art galleries. Frances
Hodgkins showed in Sydney in one in 1913 (?David Jones was it?). Milne & Choyce in Auckland
showed a stone replica, very coarsely carved, of Michelangelo's Moses or was it the giant
David in the Lingerie Dept.in 1969. Wasn't there a gallery in Dunedin
early 70's belonging to Dawson's dept store? And there must be much more of this... Now,
on the way out? Is the Supermarket dying yet? Art galleries in the Supo
wd be just the thing anyway, with suitable aisle-labelling (or
labeling). Best
Tony Green,
e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz
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Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 22:05:50 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From: Matthew S Sackmann <msackma@MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU>
Subject: New Orleans...
In-Reply-To: <01I3JPA5BDG2HV1YCX@cnsvax.albany.edu>
Does anyone know of any poetry readings going on in or around New Orleans?
Just curious, im afraid there is some great underground society and im
missing out, stuck at my boring college (Tulane). Anything will be
greatly appreciated.
-An early thanx,
matt
~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
Matt Sackmann- counting down the days 'till summer.
"The soul is born old but grows young. That is the comedy of life.
And the body is born young and grows old. That is life's tragedy."
-Oscar Wilde
"Society often forgives the criminal; it never forgives the dreamer."
-OW
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 01:35:04 -0400
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From: Eryque Gleason <eryque@ACMENET.NET>
Subject: Re: minnesota
>But my advice for surving the Midwest, Maria,
>is to get yourself a bland husband and a couple of babies and learn to keep
>your mouth shut.
>
>Dodie
to which i could add: get one o' them
cut-off-above-the-shoulders-'bob'-or-what-ev-er-they-call-em haircuts every
eight months.
oh, and find a driveway to have re-tarred every other time you cut your hair.
eryque
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Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 18:11:01 -1000
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From: Susan Schultz <sschultz@HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Orleans...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.91.960414220301.32896B-100000@rs5.tcs.tulane.edu>
Matt--you might get in touch with John Gery in the English department at
the University of New Orleans; I'm sure he'd know.
On Sun, 14 Apr 1996, Matthew S Sackmann wrote:
> Does anyone know of any poetry readings going on in or around New Orleans?
> Just curious, im afraid there is some great underground society and im
> missing out, stuck at my boring college (Tulane). Anything will be
> greatly appreciated.
>
> -An early thanx,
> matt
>
> ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
> Matt Sackmann- counting down the days 'till summer.
>
> "The soul is born old but grows young. That is the comedy of life.
> And the body is born young and grows old. That is life's tragedy."
> -Oscar Wilde
>
> "Society often forgives the criminal; it never forgives the dreamer."
> -OW
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 21:13:16 -0700
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From: "Jeffrey W. Timmons" <mnamna@IMAP1.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199604141316.JAA06586@emout06.mail.aol.com>
uh, sorry, maria, i was just expanding the tangent a bit beyond MN. some
threads never die. they just strangle themselves. kidding. seriously
though i was just using thoreau as my own reference point in terms of
place location geography. hes an important landscapist in american lit
of place.
one of the scary things about finding the unabomber was the fact of his
almost thoreauesque "lifestyle." and did yall read/hear about that
20something who went to alaska and died trying to live off the land in
winter in a bus? it seems that the idealism of thoreau has been grafted
on to the worst aspects of this neoantifederalism strain of american
individualism and self-reliance. ug. it seems that a thoreauean (say
that five times fast!) sensibility is dangerously close to a pathological
or sociopathological disdain for anything that smacks of
institutionality.
uh . . . far off now. . . . perhaps were in a even more dangerous
landscape than brockden browns _edgar huntley_ ?
jeffrey timmons, sleepwalker
On Sun, 14 Apr 1996, Maria Damon wrote:
> s of thoreau, and i can't resist pointing out that
> thoreau lived in...massachusetts, and hung out in the most "elite" of
> intellectual circles. so if we're gonna use him as a reference point in
> discussions of regionalism, let's put him in proper context. i'd love to
> hang out w/ thoreau, in thoreau country where i grew up (walks around walden
> were a frequent family activity). well, i can see this subject is not a good
> one for me to dwell on, it was good for me to have my say but i'd like to
> move beyond it internally. i'd love to love the place i live...
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 21:19:23 -0700
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From: "Jeffrey W. Timmons" <mnamna@IMAP1.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Place
Comments: To: "Sheila E. Murphy" <semurphy@AZLINK.COM>
In-Reply-To: <199604142012.NAA13427@nemesis.azlink.com>
sheila
just a thought on the desert: ive always thought the real desert is
phoenix: its barren and paved over with nothing but lifeless roads and
(!) strip malls. it is literally a desert with no life. the other
desert though--those little oasi of life--where there is life breathes
with what remains of the living forms and beings belonging to the real
desert. youve got to get out of phoenix to find life in the desert.
here in the midst of it nothing lives. im exaggerating of course.
jeffrey timmons
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 22:59:42 -0700
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From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: Re: malls
This is Kevin Killian speaking. I remember a few years ago, here in San
Francisco, the so-called "San Francisco Center" opened downtown on Market
Street to great hoopla, mostly due to the never before seen circular
escalators. Cleverly, the poet and filmmaker Abigail Child persuaded the
property management firm to let her shoot some scenes for her then-current
project, the video soap-opera "Swamp," on the escalators. She completely
bamboozled them into thinking it was some swank "independent" Sundance type
picture about relationships, swore it would be good publicity for
Nordstroms etc. Ha ha ha!
"Swamp," written by Sarah Schulman, uses the conventions of TV soaps and
twists them all about into these sodden hilarious heaps. In the near
future, the US government has created a drainage ditch to separate
California from Mexico to keep out illegal immigrants. The ditch, or
swamp, has gotten out of control and now hovers directly south of San
Francisco. Carla Harryman plays the director of Small Press Traffic, who
is told by a sinister real estate (or intelligence) agent-George
Kuchar-that the bookstore is to be demolished to make room for more swamp.
Carla has many other problems, including a stormy marriage to Thor (Steve
Benson), a surly film critic, author of "The Look and the Glance versus the
Peek and the Stare." He owes money to a local Latina waitress, played by
Marga Gomez, who he has coerced into making local TV commercials for
"Working Class Hero," the emporium for those who lack working class roots
but want to pretend they have them (filmed on the circular escalators, and
very Ophuls-esque).
Thor and Shelley (Harryman) visit his parents to try to beg money. His dad
is played by Susie Bright, who also doubles in the role of Shelley's
analyst. His mom is played by the late Tede Matthews, in this horrible
frumpy drag that conceals a terrible menace. I play a celebrated
conceptual artist, John Smith, whose specialty is rigging up steel beams
and suspending them from the ceiling of Grand Central Station-computers
time the supporting cables to snap whenever a saturation mass of homeless
people underneath try to sleep. That's about all I remember right now . .
. . except that Tom Mandel was in it too and he and I had to wear
unflattering pig snouts over our real noses and make sexist cracks about
the lovely Marga Gomez. And also, Larry Ochs gets shot to death and people
cheer since they now have a chance at a good apartment. (More of a New
York joke than a SF joke I suppose.) And also, Carla gets into a romance
with Aline Mayer, who was playing a kind of Jean Seberg type of romantic
revolutionary. Gee, I guess I've written enough about "Swamp," but
everybody should see it.
-KK.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 05:10:21 -0400
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From: Eryque Gleason <eryque@ACMENET.NET>
Subject: Re: Place
Sheila,
I liked what you said: "there's this contagious little reverence that
permeates this web of surfaces. You don't get very deep into the ground."
My own experiences with deserts relates. I spent my early years in the
midwest, a lot of time in and near chicago, vertically oriented. My very
earliest years were spent at a small airport outside of the chicago suburbs
(even now, although i'm counting the weeks until de kalb is truly
considered suburban), watching my dad go up and down thirty times a day,
flying skydivers. Then when we moved to the san juaquin valley the desert
seemed absolutely horizontal. I felt that i couldn't get very far into the
ground, didn't feel any of that vertical orientation i was used to until i
went into the foothills. No reason to look up or down really, i thought
the dry dirt was ugly and there was nothing up, just spread out wide.
"Arizona has this splendid way of leaving one alone" as did that valley.
Somehow, standing just next to a close friend in the desert feels lonely to
me, seems like they're thirty yards away, but where things grow tall those
inches in between feel miniscule, like i'm right next to *everybody*.
I'd drop my two cents in the cup, but i can't blow my WHOLE paycheck in one
place! I haven't even bought groceries yet.
Eryque
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 08:10:20 EDT
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From: Henry Gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: malls
In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 13 Apr 1996 18:35:42 -0700 from
<scope@UCSCB.UCSC.EDU>
On Sat, 13 Apr 1996 18:35:42 -0700 Stephen Galen Cope said:
It all began in Minnesota in the mid-50s,
>when Gruen was commissioned to build a shopping center. He constructed a
>central courtyard equidistant from two department stores. The result,
>Southdale, opened on October 8, 1956. Its one giant roof meant that
Beg to differ. It all began in Rhode Island. The Arcade in Providence,
the first enclosed mall, was built in the early 19th century. That's why
I left my beloved Minnesota. I grew up a few miles from Southdale, and
like my namesake Glenn I just love 'em - I can pursue happiness nowhere
but in the Dawn Land of Malls. - H. Gould
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 08:45:53 -0400
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From: Pierre Joris <joris@CSC.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Often I am permitted to return to Tom Raworth
In-Reply-To: <01I3JPA5BDG2HV1YCX@cnsvax.albany.edu>
Chris -- it wasn't Tom raworth at all, it was Ernest hemingway, & you
weren't there anyway & neither were we, as we were in massachusetts,
though right now, giggling over coffee, it all comes back, & the title of
Tom's new book is "Clean and Well Lit," & Tom is checking right now if he
actually did write the line you quote as that way he may know better if
indeed it was he & not Ernest who read here or in mass. last night, but
scanning the mss he can';t find the line, though its too early to be
confused & so he has decided that he may very well have written that line
or that he may write it some day in the future in which case you will be
credited.
Pierre
PS. Tom just found the line & it goes "cheated by false hopes"
On Sun, 14 Apr 1996, Chris Stroffolino wrote:
> Tonight, in a reading available on casette from Chris, "EAP", Funkhouser
> at chez Joris/Peyrafitte here in Albany, Tom Raworth read from his new
> forthcoming ROOF Book, "A CLean And Well Lit Place" (I think that's the
> title). As usual, I understand, he read very fast, very dense---
> It seems quite different than the TOTTERING STATE (and pre) work....
> the only line that comes to mind (I didn't take notes) was
> "deluded by false hopes" (again, I might be misquoting)....but it's
> great work, and I can't wait for the book.....
> cs
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:32:37 -0400
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From: Mark Wallace <mdw@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU>
Subject: DIU
I have to agree with Joe Amato, Bob Harrison, and some others on
the DIU discussion. I have no objection to the fact that the DIU piece
was satire, or that it was satire of the NYC Poetry Talks, which I'm sure
could be effectively satirized in a thousand ways, although quite frankly
I thought it was a very good conference, on the whole. Rather, the
problem is with the implications of the satire--its underlying suggestion
that ironical hopelessness is the only proper stance of the avant garde
poet--and, also, its failure to evaluate with any accuracy what were
the real limitations of the NYC conference.
First, a point of info: I'm not sure it's absolutely established
that Poe and the writer of the DIU satire are the same person. The Poe
satires are stylistically complex, whatever one thinks of their critical
implications, whereas the DIU satire is a much cruder hatchetjob (to
which, in my initial post on this subject, I thought it best to respond
in kind) that approximates the manifesto form of various social movements
as the basis of its critique. Perhaps the DIU was a rush job by Poe--in
any case, it was certainly not meant to approximate Poe's style.
If the NYC poetry conference as a whole could be criticized for
having a problematic social stance, that criticism certainly would NOT be
that the overwhelming attitude there was one of messianic avant-gardism.
Exactly the opposite, in fact, would be nearer to the truth. For
instance, the conference was not advertised except to its participants
and on poetics e-mail and perhaps a few other places--the readings at the
conference (not the discussions) were also advertised in local NYC poetry
info pages. This is not a criticism of the organizers necessarily--they
did a wonderful job of making everyone welcome, and of putting things
together, and they had a lot of difficult work to do--but it hardly
bespeaks a context in
which we're determined to force others to listen to what we're saying.
Rather, a more common assumption at the conference was either that no one
else would want to listen, or, worse, that those of us who were at the
conference had no interest in having anybody else listen.
Many of the excellent papers and talks at the conference suffered
from the same difficulty--the in-group nature of the audience was assumed
to be known, obvious, and perhaps even a good thing. For instance, from
my point of view the notion that there is no longer any important
distinction between avant garde and other kinds of poetry (an implication
that was the subject, indirectly and directly, of several of the talks)
could only be assumed by people who never talk significantly about poetry
to anyone who is not part of the avant garde context. Say in most
settings in America "I feel free to borrow not only from Johanna Drucker
but also John Keats" the response almost certainly will be "who is
Johanna Drucker?" Many of the NYC talks seemed to me like very intriguing
ingrown toenails, but ingrown toenails nonetheless.
So I would argue that the DIU satire, with its position of
hopelessness, anti-audience development, and satirical insularity was far
more
of a dominant trend than it was some incisive marginalized commentary.
Thankfully, I don't think it was finally THE dominant trend--there were
too many great people there expressing too many varied positions to be
generalized either in the way of the DIU satire or in the way I'm
speaking here. But I think it's pretty clear that it is quietism rather
than messianic avant-gardism that represents a significant danger for the
poets at the conference--our tendency to the simultaneously wounded and
smug notion that no one besides us could possibly care about what we're
doing. The fact is that such a notion simply is not true--more people are
interested in "experimental" poetry in the U.S. (and I believe worldwide)
than ever before.
In fact, I did find the DIU piece quite funny, in its way, and
simply meant to treat it with the rough satire with which it was treating
me. So, I do understand when Chris Funkhouser says "Mark, maybe that's
the world you're living in already" but in fact I think that's not so. My
"community", or more specifically the group of people who care about my
writing practice, simply is NOT limited to the people at the DIU
conference. The assumption that we are a clearly defined group, or that
we're the only ones who care about what we do, leads to a sort of social
inwardness that is not only unnecessary, but also is based on an
incorrect evaluation of the circumstances that many of us are in.
For me, the goal of the NYC conference was not a chance to party
with the crowd that understands me. Rather, it was an attempt to learn
more about the activity of contemporary poetry and its various potentials
in various contexts, so that I could take what I learned there and bring
it back to the various environments in which I move.
I thought it was a great conference--thanks to Rob and Kim and
Stacy to organizing, to Bill Luoma for putting together the talks for
possible publication, for Jordan Davis for posting about the conference,
and for various people for doing a lot of hard work to support a subject
about which they care a great deal. And thanks as well to the DIU
satirist for raising some key issues, and for giving me and others a
chance to refute those arguments.
Mark Wallace
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:33:42 -0400
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From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: your mail
hi jeffrey timmons, i didn't take offense at thoreau-referencing at all. i
love walden etc. it's just that it shd be remembered that he hardly went
into seclusion --true he lived in a stone cottage on the banks of walden
pond, but he had frequent visitors and frequently visited the emersons,
ellery channing, etc., the intellectual luminaries of his day, of which he
was one. he was very closely connected to institutions we might call "elite"
(in some ways, so was the unabomber, in earlier parts of his life.) also,
thoreau only lived at walden for a short time, as i recall, it was not to be
a permanent arrangement but an experiment in living. a coupla years at most?
md...
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Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:33:56 -0400
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
and you'll dry all my tears...
xo---maria
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:34:06 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: minnesota
chris s --oh yes, massachusetts can be icy with regard to outsiderdom... i
met a woman married to an editor of one of those big publishing houses who
had orchestrated a big multi-cultural anthology, and this lady (haute WASP
herself) said, "well, it is a question whether we should inlcude these
minorities in literary anthologies," i was shocked. i tried to say as
non-confrontationally as possible that it wasn't a question of inclusion, but
who even got to decide who the gatekeepers were. her assumption of privilege
was something i'd forgotten about during my years in the midwest, where WASP
means rural, kinda self-effacing shy folk who are embarrassed about being
"nothing special". and harvard, where my dad taught but was treated like
shit and never promoted (he was a "senior lecturer," whatever that means),
famously treats everyone with contempt and harsh exclusion. its not that
people in MA are "true" liberals while folks in MN are not. there are diff.
kinds and flavors of liberalism. i guess i'm just used to a certain
temperament, and, equally important almost, a certain landscape and physical
"feel".--md
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Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:40:39 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: - Kim Tedrow <RoseRead@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: minnesota
Dodie writes:
>>>>I could go on and on here. But my advice for surving the Midwest, Maria,
is to get yourself a bland husband and a couple of babies and learn to keep
your mouth shut.<<<<
EXCUSE ME BUT THAT'S NOT TRUE. But I did *not* have that experience in
Minnesota as a loud, brassy, mother of one with NO husband. I had kooky,
opinionated,LOUD, artistic friends, and plenty of acceptance of my
"personality". I MISS IT and I'll be damned if I can find it here in the DC
area where you need to earn an income of over $35K just to afford a clunker
of a car. Yeah, the bureacracy was hell. Yeah, the winters stink. Yeah,
the English Dept. at the U of M is a wasteland for women. It's also a
wasteland for Marxists, African Americans, Hispanics, and leftists, etc. etc.
(I remember the fights about the "multi-cultural requirements" for a liberal
arts degree). But then so is most of America. But the coasts, I'm sure,
have their own form of "wasteland", namely for me, an economic one.
Minnesota is my home. I miss the cleanliness, the space, the quality of
life, the network I spent 15 years developing, and YES, I miss friendly
polite people -- even if there are stupid notions of "difference" under the
surface. At least I could get through the day w/out being insulted,
harassed, or ignored by sales clerks, neighbors, or people on the street.
My experiences moving to the East as a "new wife" emotionally sound very much
like Maria describes her experiences going to the U of MN. My husband's
attitude towards me was, "you're not unhappy, you're just *wrong*". My
emotional lability was viewed as a character flaw at my job. The *only*
thing that saved my sanity was that I got a new computer, and logged on to
find like minds on AOL, which gave me the connections I needed to feel like a
human being again.
PLEASE STOP BASHING THE MIDWEST--I take it *personally*. We carry our
unhappiness with us, if there's anything I learned in the past four years.
It wasn't "DC's" fault that I was miserable when I moved out here. It
wasn't *anybody's* fault. Furthermore, I lived and worked in a community in
Mpls. where differences and passion were supported and where I thrived. And
Maria, I haven't heard one single solitary person accuse you of being morally
deficient because you're unhappy in Minnesota.
Now, if I could just get forsythias to grow in Mpls., and take the wonderful
father to my daughter that my *ex*husband has become, as well as rumors of
milder winters, I'd go back. I may go back anyway, for economic and quality
of life reasons.
<grumbling>
Kim
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 08:31:30 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: Re: art in dept stores
This is Kevin Killian speaking. I have been writing the life of Jack
Spicer, and have been given access to the scandal-packed diaries of Robert
Berg, the librarian who had been at Berkeley with Spicer, Duncan, Blaser,
etc. In a series of entries, Berg describes a show at Gump's in January
1959. Gump's is this horrid high-bourgeois Barbary Coast department store
here in San Francisco. It was a show for Jess, who was Robert Duncan's
boyfriend . . . Jess had delivered all his paintings in these exquisite
frames, each one decorated by hand, appliqued with velvet arabesques, etc.
Overnight, assiduous Gump's salespeople carefully removed all the
decorations off the frames so when the opening happened, the frames were
bare. I questioned Jess about this point, he smiled weakly and said,
"Well, maybe the frames WERE a little overdone." (Berg: "A haughty
salesman raced a lady customer though with a disdainful, 'I don't see this
man at all.'")
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:39:56 CST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Baratier <dave.baratier@MOSBY.COM>
Subject: contrasimilitudinous
Steve
That the poet is not blessed with the intellect of destruction
apparent in the embedded criticism of furthering oneself seems
apparent by following the appropriative patterns of the last 20 years.
A few poets in the seventies decided to use literary theory as a shift
of emphasis away from the Iowa and confessionals, as a process of
utterance reclaimation away from the polarity given to the utterance
by the media and politicos. The problem with Derrida's assertion is
that either philosophy *or* poetry are the primary (read: ONLY)
methodologies in which to investigate language. I entirely disagree.
The investigation of language does not have a designated power, one
where each exponent degree is voiced purely by philosophy and/or
poetry. A degree isn't necessary, in language-polarity for example,
the suffix "-gate" has a negative connotation due to media uses and
then the public can talk about this newly minted word. After a few
years of using this suffix to the point of saturation, a poll company,
such as Gannet, determines that the public has grown tired of this
suffix, that white-gate has extrapolated meaning beyond the economic
life-span curve of product unit-value. So "-gate"is statistically
quantifyable and investigated in terms of mathematical lingo. This is
just one example alternate conduits for language investigation. One
consolation: I have heard that recently Gannet has been able to hire
philosophers for this process in areas where the economy has
disappeared such as Albany and Youngstown.
As for my own use of the inflated latinations, an advocation of one
form of writing over another was not intended, since I am not an
"academic" I believe in another reclaimation availiable to the
outside: working within to work without. :*
David Baratier
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:40:12 -0500
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: DIU
with mark, i'll have to go on record as saying that discussion of/critique
of diu/poe (and i must admit to having conflated these latter, though i
hear them similarly at times) is meant as constructive and is helped muchly
by chris f.'s (and others') willingness to enter into said exchange
peaceably...
best,
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:58:27 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: low-rent mall (encroaching slack)
The phrase 'low-rent surrealism' was used to describe the music of the Ohio
rock band Guided by Voices. (Their lead singer was until recently an
elementary school teacher, and some of his logic seems learned from
children--not a putdown.) This band was contrasted with the Stockton, CA
outfit, Pavement; Pavement was held to be more sophisticated lyrically,
rhythmically, and melodically. I'd have to agree, but I'd like to note the
marked lack of things to say that's encroaching in Pavement's recent work.
Pavement's latest single, "Give It a Day" seems to conflate the conflict
between Increase and Cotton Mather with a fight the singer had with his
girlfriend's dad. The usual vague sympathy for the exploited ('The word
spread just like smallpox in the Sudan' is to me an echo of 'The natives
fussing with the data charts', a rocking line from the "Watery, Domestic"
ep that is probably the turning point for Pavement ((from re-privatized
R.E.M. to over-publicized R.E.M... last Gary Young project?) is tied in
with the band's dead-white-man 'no one has a clue' refrain they've been
pushing since their first big hit, "Here". That is, I think there's some
class/race damage that makes Pavement's work pretty exhausting for me in
the end. Even their most hummable songs, "Gold Soundz" and "Cut Your Hair",
seem wrecked by a class-based guilt/urge to oppress--'No Big Hair!' may be
a manifesto against arena rock, but it's probably an upper middle class
attack on the lower middle class, too. Now Guided by Voices, they're cool.
'The scenario is brine/For the King and Carol', that's a pretty great
couplet. Who said beauty was in sophistication? Or, there's a simplicity to
Guided by Voices' work that I connect to complexly. Indie rock is my
sportspage. And poetry is my news. Malls, though, are socially interesting
in a way that is not yet 'appropriate.' I have always had a passion for
malls and shopping centers. They're so cavernous and multiple, they carry
identical merchandise aimed at almost exactly the same idea of the
consumer, it's colorful and often plush, the divisibility of life into
pointless specializations thrills me, the sockman is the avatar from the
80s to all time, a whole store for socks, tie-dye socks, socks with maps of
the world, terry-cloth socks, the record stores are a few weeks behind and
everything's two dollars too much, the roving groups of kids who hate you,
the orange plastic trays, 'greek' food, the atrium, the low-ceiling parking
garages, magnet stores at either end (they're the same! they're the same!),
my first girlfriend and I spent all our time at the Town Center in Stamford
CT, it was an 'upscale' mall, they had a Doubleday book shop, it carried
Kenneth Koch and John Ashbery, the clothes were mostly terrible, how could
anybody afford any of it, but there we were, the relationship ended badly,
there was a Brooks Brothers, a Victoria's Secret, a Sharper Image, a
Metropolitan Museum of Art, a son helping his mother shop at Victoria's
Secret, is that a surprising thing to see? and a fountain, got hit on the
head by a penny once, the mall on the Danbury Fairgrounds is maybe too
wide, too airy, there's a carousel on the spot where the carousel used to
be, went to the Danbury Fair the year before they closed it down, there's a
small airport (Brainard Field I think) right next to the mall parking lot,
the Westchester, the new place to shop north of 57th St, if you're from
north of 242nd St, a carpeted-throughout shopping mall, magnet store is
Nordstrom's, yes there's piano, some of the clothes there are lovely (and
expensive), come to think of it I like to write there, never could write in
the Galleria, the big deal thirteen years ago or so, but the stabbings sort
of drove people away, got my first record there, the Pretenders' "Learning
to Crawl", amazing even if Rush Limbaugh uses it, maybe amazing because
Rush uses it the way Reagan using Neil Young and Neil Young wanting to be
used was amazing, the secret compartmentalization conceals is that it
breaks down the membranes between activities, the cellular structure, dead
cells (scotch-tape shop), circulatory system, the health of malls, sick
building syndrome, the stories in Readers Digest about malls as ideal
fitness centers, go early and take your laps, climate controlled,
homeostasis as consumer ideal, the largest organism, not for orgasms, minor
potassium/sodium exchanges really, not the convulsive release of going to
say Books & Co, rhizome/fungus the size of Kansas? a thousand plateaus or
at least five levels, max out, come again soon, well let's just look,
General Tso, can't remember what stores my first girlfriend liked to go to,
probably it's built to send people different ways to gather again at a
rendezvous point, the Disney store, the Warner Bros store, a remapping of
school, the traffic is divided around these atria, these railings, one
stream goes this way, one goes that, I suppose you've done this, is it like
watching tv? or like being at the beach, I think it's like the beach, water
engineering, carving channels in the sand, looking at people, like a
certain kind of beach, Jersey Shore or Long Island, maybe not like Cape Cod
or Nantucket, the upper middle class as opposed to the lower middle class,
the stores a few miles from the beach, or right on it, outlet malls, what
are they, I think it's like being at the beach, boat horn, other horns,
department stores are like going to the mountains? Nah.--Jd
PS Most retrospective art shows in Japan are held in department stores, no?
That's the museum system institutionalized there, and sometimes in France,
too, right? Also, Gannett (USA Today/network of many local newspapers where
I grew up) can't have officially hired philosophers to investigate words,
their head office has not yet officially recognized 'words'.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:13:57 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: Re: minnesota
At 10:40 AM 4/15/96, - Kim Tedrow wrote:
>I had kooky,
>opinionated,LOUD, artistic friends, and plenty of acceptance of my
>"personality".
Like I said, Kim--kooky but non-challenging =8A I never said the midwest
wasn't full of arty types. And when I lived there I had wonderful friends,
the kind where everybody ends up rolling around with their sides aching
from laughing and screaming. An oppressive environment is great for
bonding people.
Dodie
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 13:22:52 EDT
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: henry <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: low-rent mall (encroaching slack)
In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:58:27 -0500 from <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
On Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:58:27 -0500 Jordan Davis said:
Malls, though, are socially interesting
>in a way that is not yet 'appropriate.' I have always had a passion for
>malls and shopping centers. They're so cavernous and multiple, they carry
Mr. Davis might like to visit South Korea. Shopping en masse as an
art form has been brought to great distinction there. Designer clothes
are set out in mammoth piles in blocks long+wide stores; women do nothing
in South Korea but buy clothes & plan large meals; the low-rent surrealist
shopkeepers are rich as hell, spangled with huge rings, diamonds &
flashy outfits. I'm only reporting this second-hand
and this is not a regional put-down (after what I've been through
regarding poor lil Minnesota I'm heading to Korea to sho till I dro).
- Henry Gould
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 14:02:53 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Colleen Lookingbill <Zorlook@AOL.COM>
ible to paint the Midwest in any way that people would agree
upon. Or any other part of the US. But one thing DOES seem certain: Some
geographic locations tend to be conducive to one's OWN physique, temperament,
and God knows what else."
Think Sheila is right about the match up of geographic location and the
phychic space one has a need to inhabit - read a book once called Avalanche
by W. Brugh Joy, and he posited an interesting theory that great cities all
over the world (and throughout time) were a reflection of the pattern of the
basic composition of the human Unconscious from dark and malignant to most
beatific and celebrated, and to live in and be reflected by the spectrum of
the city meant to be exposed to very different value systems than family or
rural living. As a former midwesterner (Iowa), I feel that my life in S.F. IS
very different and better suited to what I wanted for my overall development,
but that does not make me feel prejudiced against the Midwest, just that I
needed something else.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 14:09:34 -0400
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Larry Price <Lppl@AOL.COM>
Subject: NYC bag (an interloper)
Sometimes I am permitted
to stroll down Hudson Street on a great broad spring day from the PATH
station to Spring Street.
On Saturday, the 13th, at the EAR INN, Tax Day minus two, Chris Stroffolino
and Jordan Davis read to a vocal and appreciative crowd. I don't remember
anything that anyone wore.
Readings at the EAR invariably begin with the ritual of the mike, its two
halves putting our heads behind us, as we listen dutifully in order to become
this single, unified attention of the audience. All deftly handled by Lisa
Jarnot, who wasted no words. Chris Stroffolino read first, or rather loosened
and redirected the intricacies of his texts, their accretions of substance
and then, there, suddenly Donovan (or "a" Donovan in sunshine). Always the
KNOT: a single line cum sentence drawn through it - implying a fluidity but
in fact the bits are left in, unfiltered, set equally apart and so a kind of
masque of fluidity. Chris suddenly accuses differences of collapsing - but
they don't, they're realigned, brined, sometimes the reduction is
overwhelming, but it always undermines redaction, won't admit of it. The END
OF WINTER has never been more forcibly marked
"the reruns of the rainbow"
"thick political skins"
"the urge to move"
"as if integrity was a strain"
"the hidden needles I used to construct an empty haystack"
Here as so many places, the images come in reverse, the service economy to
thought that WON'T foreclose us.
"somehow indicting what you can do doesn't indict what you can't do"
Always oppositions as conjunctions of experience such that the sentence is
always continuant.
"reveille" into "taps"
"the universe a snubbing thumb"
(a reading of Hardy, Chris told us later)
Up to that point we laughed a lot, so much in fact we no longer heard one
another, heard only Chris continuing to read. As he changed timbre, pace.
Fish Story -- "things we see are a reflection in . . ."
"never still"
There are so many things to be respected here, the bristling motion, the
power of the sentence again "compelling" not "back, back" but . . .
There is an agreeableness everywhere in his energy.
After one of those great furious, loud, VERY LOUD intermissions at the EAR,
Jordan Davis read. He opened with a beginning, a middle, and an end, a
typesetting book from 1934. His father and mother in attendance, there is no
"free money," so his father's computer sluiced us through the truth and mud
of puzzlement. Here the echoes kept us all silent, the syntax a tender
anarchy purveying nothing short of secrets.
The texts roamed, rolled through dreams, syntax next jettisoned in favor of
the brute facts of the words themselves - not disjunct at all because coming
in a quiet way in the midst of so much syntactical revelation.
ROARING SPRING COMPOSITIONS
Quiet, careful, and demarcated - a "harp of purity" - liberty bent and scaled
to the point where we CAN hear them - limpid and lucent, again the syntax
limning the veil it the syntax likewise sheds.
The continual presence (stated at least, though I heard none, the point I
suppose) of the unfinished, evoking in us that great broad equilibrium, the
"other" 24 hours alongside these, these dreams. We hear him point to point,
convincing us of the importance of what he's/we're doing. "A poet's flag."
For precision, I think (and so much else).
We're seeing him say "The Revolution is over!" while hearing him turn (the
corner) ("a desiring lake"), a clear, voltaic light. Around and again. Then:
"Swift, swift, swift, go." We pause, washed over. The Reverdy translations
were exquisite.
"Young animals go shining"
"no time in time"
"Vagabond, abide with me."
We did and do.
Readings do many things for me. Sometimes, when I've gone to too many of them
in a single week, they bring a distorted image of myself in relation to
writing. But best of all, as this continuant reader, they send me back to the
texts. I urge us all to read these writers' books carefully.
Larry Price
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 14:19:57 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: minnesota
okay okay kim, truce. i think we've about done this subject to death. i
felt my "moral fiber" attacked by hoover, not anyone else, after gould
apologized. i think it's clear that my experience was "personal'; at the
same time, i'm not the only one who's had it, whether we're talking about a
midwesterner who's left (like dodie) or those of us like me, charles,
jonathan b, etc., who have moved there from elsewhere. there are nice things
about mn, like my apartment, which is spacious and cheap. and now that i've
met good folks there thru this list, it'll be even better. after i got
tenure, i resolved to make paradise out of wherever i was. that worked for
about half a year. now it's time to regenerate that feeling, i'm gearing up
for a return.
bests, maria d
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 15:30:03 -0500
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: The atmosphere of the other guy by Larry Fagin
I think, Henry, I would like to go to South Korea. Also, I want very much
to go to Egypt, to Sri Lanka, to Italy, to Estonia, and to Nepal. What have
you heard about the people and the shops in those places? Walter Lew, can
you tell me, is this true about South Korea, that it's as commercial as
Minnesota? Brian Kim Stefans, you were in South Korea last year, right?
--Jd
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 15:25:01 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: henry gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Notley
Now about Fargo... just kiddin'. Has anybody read Alice Notley's essay
in the book "Disembodied Poetics". I just read it for the first time
today. On women's epics, allegory, dream, story, measure. My first
reaction is this is one of the most sensible, concise, useful, &
forward-looking statements from yon working poets I have seen in
long time. If this has been hashed over on the list before then
leave it lie, says I. - Henry Gould
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 14:33:12 -0500
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: NYC bag (an interloper)
thanx larry, those were great
readings...
bst,
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 15:40:47 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Henry Gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: The atmosphere of the other guy by Larry Fagin
In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 15 Apr 1996 15:30:03 -0500 from <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
On Mon, 15 Apr 1996 15:30:03 -0500 Jordan Davis said:
>I think, Henry, I would like to go to South Korea. Also, I want very much
>to go to Egypt, to Sri Lanka, to Italy, to Estonia, and to Nepal. What have
>you heard about the people and the shops in those places?
I don't get out of little Rhody much - it's big enough for me. But I
understand that Italians grocery shop about 3 times a day, & that's how
they stay trim. But they're getting heavier now that they all drive
noisy mopeds & expensive cars. About the other places I'm not nearly
as well-informed - you'll have to do further research. I should have
backchanneled this. Too late now. I hear the lurkers seething -
"where's the f-- poetics here??" They are absolutely right, once again.
Lurkers, peace, brothers & sisters. I will try to control myself
& let you talk too. Hold me to it, tovaritches - HG
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 15:03:52 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "D. LaBeau" <dlabeau@BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Elmslie
Some more rock'n'roll lyricists with poetic skills:
Thinking Fellers Union Local 282 have some wonderful, Ashberyesque
scribblings, especially on "Mother of all Saints" though its lucky
they include a lyric sheet for those buried vocals.
Gastr Del Sol- I haven't heard much of them but in interviews the vocalist
claims to be influenced by Zukofsky, Olson, & Oppen.
& of course Captain Beefheart. By the way, to the starter of this thread,
Franklin Bruno: are you the same FB from the band Nothing Painted Blue?
Either way they're a great band, with more puns & clever twists than
Elvis Costello in his prime.
--Dan
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 15:49:59 CST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Baratier <dave.baratier@MOSBY.COM>
Subject: Re: the atmosphere of the other guy by larry fagin
Jordan & Henry
The shopping here in Philadelphia is wonderful, why
when they play celebration in the navy its done with words
in the Gallery one of the earliest malls by Victor Gruen
right in our city grid. People won't mention his name
it's said to make the upperclass spit, and so, and similarly
the rain in Maine is supposed to fall gently on the plain
while terrain in Spain is a bit smoother than Botswain.
Francois Baratier
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 19:54:48 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Elmslie
it was you,
walter lew
who
first introdu-
ced me to
captain beefheart, and he's remained a fave since then. i still often have
cause to intone
woe is-a me-bop
om bopareebop
om.
everybody's do-
in it, please don't let them ru-
in it
om...
thank you...
xo md
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 17:03:00 PDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steve Carll <sjcarll@SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: contrasimilitudinous
At 10:39 AM 4/15/96 CST, David Baratier wrote:
> The problem with Derrida's assertion is
> that either philosophy *or* poetry are the primary (read: ONLY)
> methodologies in which to investigate language. I entirely disagree.
No, I think you're polarizing Derrida's assertion by reading ONLY. They may
be the only ones Derrida himself is interested in, but I don't think he's
interested in closing down any possibilities of language investigation by
forcing them into one or both of these two categories. Why else would he
valorize "crossing the boundaries"?
> The investigation of language does not have a designated power, one
> where each exponent degree is voiced purely by philosophy and/or
> poetry. A degree isn't necessary, in language-polarity for example,
> the suffix "-gate" has a negative connotation due to media uses and
> then the public can talk about this newly minted word. After a few
> years of using this suffix to the point of saturation, a poll company,
> such as Gannet, determines that the public has grown tired of this
> suffix, that white-gate has extrapolated meaning beyond the economic
> life-span curve of product unit-value. So "-gate"is statistically
> quantifyable and investigated in terms of mathematical lingo. This is
> just one example alternate conduits for language investigation. One
> consolation: I have heard that recently Gannet has been able to hire
> philosophers for this process in areas where the economy has
> disappeared such as Albany and Youngstown.
So if I understand you, you started out defending the poets from what you
feel is an attack by the critics. Now you're defending the pollsters from
not only the critics but also the poets?
> As for my own use of the inflated latinations, an advocation of one
> form of writing over another was not intended, since I am not an
> "academic" I believe in another reclaimation availiable to the
> outside: working within to work without. :*
Hmm. Sounds suspiciously like DECONSTRUCTIONISM to me. :-) But I wasn't
implying that you were advocating one form of writing over another; just
that, if you're using "the language of the critic" (let's call it), you must
recognize some value in that language and in using that language, no?
Steve
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 17:34:04 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Fargo
>Now about Fargo...
I was in Fargo in 1956. I could hardly wait to get to Moorhead.
George Bowering.
2499 West 37th Ave.,
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 19:46:44 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Carl <dgcarl@UCDAVIS.EDU>
> Glenn Gould loved to hang out in malls for their magic. Do americans
> know who Glenn Gould is?
Those of us who've seen the film 32 Films For Glen Gould (or is it 32 Short
Films. . .?). I don't reccomend it unreservedly, but I do recommend it, for
those of us who havn't (and by the way, some of my best friends are Malls,
or were back in the 70's, before they "sold out" and went commercial on me).
dgcarl@ucdavis.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 14:56:54 +1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Daniel Salmon <dpsalmon@IHUG.CO.NZ>
At 07:46 PM 15/04/96 -0700, you wrote:
>> Glenn Gould loved to hang out in malls for their magic. Do americans
>> know who Glenn Gould is?
>
>Those of us who've seen the film 32 Films For Glen Gould (or is it 32 Short
>Films. . .?). I don't reccomend it unreservedly, but I do recommend it, for
>those of us who havn't (and by the way, some of my best friends are Malls,
>or were back in the 70's, before they "sold out" and went commercial on me).
>
Glenn Gould would likely have been attracted to the aural cacophony of
malls. Muzac has changed over the last 10 years and now makes listening to
several different conversations rather difficult.
Daniel Salmon ph/fax (649) 4191730 mob (025) 394 311
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 23:21:14 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Walter K. Lew" <WalterLew@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: malls
Dear Stephen Cope,
Can you give us a citation for the passage on Gruen and malls? Thanks.
Walter K. Lew
8 Old Colony Rd.
Old Saybrook, CT 06475
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 22:39:14 -0500
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Alexander <chax@MTN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Fargo
>>Now about Fargo...
>
>I was in Fargo in 1956. I could hardly wait to get to Moorhead.
>
>George Bowering.
by george
i was in morego
in 5691
trying to get to farhead
around by ringbow
about now
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 22:56:37 -0700
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: mikl-em <mike@KID-LINEAR.TAYLOR.ORG>
Subject: guided by payment? t(o)eacher Cale. et Richman
jordan I didn't think that Neil Yung wanted to get used back then,
but tell me how you go so far down hill from playing NoIzE with Sonic
Youth to jellying with Pearljam... the more interestin thing is the Reagan
grab of Born in the US by Bruce, which was about an alienated Viet Nam vet
and RR scanned as flag day material.
i don't know if any one out there is a John Cale fan, but I thought that I
would mention his Fragments for a Rainy Season album is one of my faves.
It is a variation from the standard greatest hits record, as Cale
transposes songs from his entire career--Excluding his Velvet Undergroungd
days but IN-cluding his projects w/ Eno, Lou Reed, and his
orchestral/choral arrangements of Dylan Thomas poems--into a solo concert.
He accompanies himself on piano and a few songs on acoustic guitar.
Hearing Chinese Envoy which was originally a synthey bit, next to
Heartbreak Hotel, which he had done as a guitar-horror piece, and the
Thomas pieces which are SO much better solo --- it really gives a rare
chance to experience what is at the spine of his songs and performance.
And the version of Leonard Cohen's "Hallelujah" does great justice to both
the artistry of the poem and the care and character of Cale's Welsh tenor.
and if that ain't literary enuf, there's a Macbeth quote on the cover.
Where rock meets poetry and the various spokes of the word, do any of you
New Yorkers or anyone else for this matter seen Patti Smith or Richard Hell
read? and How is it, please? I've heard good things about Hell's readings
at least, but not yet reviews from more literary sources. OFcoursealso
Rosanne Cash 'pparently has a book out now...
and Chris S. or anyone else interested, Jonathan Richman is going to be on
Hot Wired's Feedback thing on Friday at 5 --but I think you hav to hav real
audio (tm) to enjoy it. [the King and Knave of naive: "I go to bakeries
all day long/there's a lack of Sweetness in my life"]
bye.mikl.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 23:16:03 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: mikl-em <mike@KID-LINEAR.TAYLOR.ORG>
Subject: Re: Elmslie
> & of course Captain Beefheart. By the way, to the starter of this thread,
> Franklin Bruno: are you the same FB from the band Nothing Painted Blue?
> Either way they're a great band, with more puns & clever twists than
> Elvis Costello in his prime.
with all due respect to FB and NPB:
maybe as many as...maybe.
EC is formidable, witness:
falling for you without a second look
falling out of your open pocket book
giving you away
like Motel Matches
"Motel Matches"
from _Get Happy_
I'll stop there, or els I'd go on.
mkl.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 02:29:31 EDT
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: James Perez <jmp2p@UVA.PCMAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Subject: short films
forget glen gould, did you see 22 short films about Springfield on the
Simpsons. It was great, sends up of Tarrantino abound
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 23:40:56 PDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: chris daniels <kunos@LANMINDS.COM>
Subject: elvis costello/capt beefheart/malls
>EC is formidable, witness:
>
>
falling for you without a second look
falling out of your open pocket book
giving you away
like Motel Matches
"Motel Matches"
> from _Get Happy_
>
>
yeah, i mean just take this one thing from "Beyond Belief":
get yr fingers on important issues
w/ crocodile tears and a pocket full of tissues
elvis costello is way up there by anybody's standards, even
scott walker's
and as for beefheart (who lives in the "hinterlands" by choice), well:
the stars are matter
we're matter
it doesn't matter
i met him at SFMOMA in the eighties --- there was an exhibition of his
paintings --- he was squatting against a wall w/ a huge burntout cigar
in his mouth, scowling --- seemed so frail and tired --- he noticed me
recognizing him and smiled, wch encouraged me to approach him and say how
much i'd always admired him --- he said "sometimes it's nice to be
recognized" --- i asked him how he'd been and he said "well, chris, a
couple weeks ago i was headless at the plaza near the mall w/ drones,
but now i'm just fine" --- i took "the mall" to mean all of midtown nyc
though i was past thirty at the time, and shld have known better,
i'd always (in spite of my utter devotion to his music) considered him
to be some sort of incredibly inspired primitive --- goes to show you
later
-------------------------------------
christopher daniels <kunos@lanminds.com> 4.15.96 11:40:56 pm
q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they
said anything goes?"
--- charles wuorinen
a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow."
--- george clinton
snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa
voice: 510.524.5972
http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 08:01:07 -0400
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Allen B. Dye" <fed1@GATE.IOA.COM>
Subject: Purloined Letter
dear Dr. Tar & Professor Fether,
1. there is a contemporary usable version of "gothic" or there
would be no postmodern architecture: i.e. skyscrapers, like one of my
favorites adorning the Pittsburgh skyline, marked by an array of
gothic spires. The gothic elements don't _mean_ the same thing that
they mean on Notre Dame, but _that's_ the _point_.
i think it works the same way with Poe (II), whose po(e)st-gothicism
exists to call attention to the beauty & the ugliness, the impossiblity,
& the cruelty of such yearnings as once made "gothic" a viable
aesthetic.
2. while...
(lucky for me, a woman, _mais non?_)
there has been "a transformation in women's roles" since 1850--
how much transformation has there been in the role that the
physical attributes of authors sometimes play in the circulation &
evaluation of literary texts?
they are not always the critical arena of the "avante-garde" but
many literary journals still make practice of publishing, alongside
works, photographs of the authors. Wld you argue that _even_ you or
i are always above indulging the culturally conditioned responses
which attach values to certain moments and aspects of physical
appearance.
>From my perspective [& I am not Poe, or not, assignably, -they_ who are
Poe, or even, I think, the 'lunatic' who "thought herself a pinch of
snuff and was truely distressed that she could not take herself
between her finger & thumb"] Poe (II) who (re)introduces questions
of "appearance" into lit-crit of writers male & female, is only drawing
attention to the role that such concerns always unavoidably seem to
play. It is among the unsaids of contemporary lit-crit, a tell-tale
heart.
3. "hermenuetic imposition" _is_ an impossibility.
a Hole never digs itself, or, if it does, its a Hole of
another sort.
4. Tho' my inital impulse was to applaud CF's remark to
MW, something to the effect of "...what makes you think you
are not always/already locked in a room with..."
I reverse now, feeeling that the writer of said "Keynote Address" and
MW are not in the same room at all/ever.
As the original Poe (Poe I) seems to demonstrate in his essay
"Cryptography," communication is based on a system in which the
sender & reciever share a decoding ring. (for my purposes,
emphasizing the spatial aspects of "ring"--tho' the aural aspects mght
also serve...).
this being the case and, borrowing on the metaphors of cyberspace,
Wallace is in a room on the eleventh floor of the Abby Victoria & the
author of "Keynote" has a room at the Paramount. (or vice versa--not
to imply too much by _where_ they are other than, not in the same
hotel.)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:20:00 -0500
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: KUSZAI <v369t4kj@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: why be anonymous?
I'm not sure there is a controversy surrounding the "Poe"
essays or the DIU pieces, as much as Chris Funkhouser
would have us believe. But given his tendency to advance
the condition of anonymous speech, we might look at that a
little more closely--what does the desire for anonymity
mean given the current space of literature and discussion
about literature--which is finally what this is all about,
despite the reactionary last-minute claims for a need for
social commitment (something which I find disingenuous,
given that author's need to remain exempt from a
socializing critique).
Carla Billitieri, Stephen Cope, Ben Friedlander, Chris
Funkhouser, Belle Gironda, Nick Lawrence, and a few others,
are all parties involved in the wave of anonymous postings
which began a little over a year ago and continue today in
different forms. As has been asserted before, we can't know
who the exact author is of a certain post. These writings ask
that we read what is offered: satire, critique, analysis,
valuation of literature--without the authorial identity that
would limit the cause expressed. Indeed, a scattering of
responsibility means that the author can evade personal
responsibility--which is great if you're going on the job
market in a few years and want what Ben Friedlander once
described as "plausible deniability". But with such deniability
comes a certain amount of tacit consent. By "forwarding" the
posts from what Gary Sullivan called the "Auntie
Hegemony" last year, each of the above persons may be able
to deny having written the posts, but by being involved in
such an _acephale_ literary communion, they implicate
themselves in the entire activity. They wish to dispose with
a certain limiting sense of the author, but the limited scope
of the author is a small-fry compared to the cowardly
activism of hiding behind "deniability".
It might be worth looking at why this kind of ski-mask
poetics exists, why some of the smartest poets (and some of
the dumbest!) find it necessary to lob little grenades into
the compound of a supposed avant garde (and what a useful
purpose that term serves!)--a "scene" (not a community)
that has served all of them well. Will Poe write a blurb for
Ben Friedlander's Collected? Will Nick Lawrence give
Auntie-Hegemony her own section in the upcoming
anthology "Chloroform: a esthetic of criticism"? And why
does Chris Funkhouser have reason to gripe? It would seem
that all of the people involved would do better to include
themselves in the dialog rather than send little
pseudonymous ambassadors of ideologies for some reason
they're afraid to express in public.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:34:35 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Daniel Bouchard <Daniel_Bouchard@HMCO.COM>
Subject: Re: Massachusetts
Chris Stroffolino wrote:
The image of great "liberal" MASSACHUSETTS (the only state that voted for
McGovern, etc) turned out to be a sham. What I found on a personal daily bais
(I mean basis) was more of the NIMBY type liberal, the "love me love me love me
I'm a liberal"---very white, very witch burner decendents....
_________
Chris;
What did you expect? And could you explain NIMBY a bit more? (Not that I don't
understand what you mean, but for our entertainment.) Also, what's the
difference between "white" and "very white?" Often I am not permitted to
understand any whiter-than-thou references.
From my point of view (I grew up in both Philadelphia and Massachusetts) your
experiences in Massachusetts limited you from seeing more widely what/who this
state is made up of. For one, you lived in Amherst (a.k.a The Happy Valley,
where Nimby liberalism is kept alive just as the Beat style of living & writing
is kept alive still in many parts of America: FUTILELY) and Cape Cod (working
for MASSPIRG of all places! Knocking on tourist's doors looking for money does
not endear you to anyone, whether they be Nimby or non-Nimby).
And just as tourists keep an eye out for movie stars in LA, some people come to
Boston expecting to spot Authentic Blue-Bloods roaming the Common and
discussing the Vote for Women or Abolition, thinking that the antiquated
architecture of Beacon Hill holds antiquated folks from an antiquated world.
The country should be glad that at least ONE state voted for McGovern. (I hope,
Chris, you are not appropriating Gingrich's term of derision: liberal
McGovernik, or whatever.) When I hear the word liberal, I think of Senator
Kennedy, who lets the liquor flow liberally.
The Conservative Elite Press still uses the state of Massachusetts as an icon
of Liberalism. It's an effective device. But for every Noam Chomsky (well,
there's only one of course), there are two dozen John Silbers, at a dime per.
The NIMBY liberals you found in Amherst were no doubt seeking refuge from the
real Massachusetts which is liberally populated with New England Rednecks
(haven't you ever been to New Hampshire?).
Of course I exaggerate, but the point is that you were running with the nimby
crowd or were just seriously unlucky.
daniel_bouchard@hmco.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:58:37 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: Re: minnesota
In-Reply-To: <199604150535.BAA27088@shell.acmenet.net> from "Eryque Gleason"
at Apr 15, 96 01:35:04 am
>But my advice for surving the Midwest, Maria,
>is to get yourself a bland husband and a couple of babies and learn to keep
>your mouth shut.
>Dodie
And what's your advice for surviving Walnut Creek, Dodie?
Mike
mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 10:05:47 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: Re: malls
In-Reply-To: <199604160256.OAA07970@ihug.co.nz> from "Daniel Salmon" at Apr
16, 96 02:56:54 pm
> Glenn Gould would likely have been attracted to the aural cacophony of
> malls. Muzac has changed over the last 10 years and now makes listening to
> several different conversations rather difficult.
> Daniel Salmon ph/fax (649) 4191730 mob (025) 394 311
>
Could be, tho I tend to think they reminded him of the winter
landscape at Lake Simcoe in a certain light.
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 07:39:35 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: the last straw and the turkey in it
In-Reply-To: <199604160409.AAA23901@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
Geeez, when I was a little boy reading bad poetry in Nebraska, we thought
Minnesota WAS the Eastern establishment -- just goes to show ya --
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 10:30:15 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Purloined Letter
dear allen b. dye, in no particular order:
yeah, i think one can be imposed upon hermeneutically, you bet... i give
you a piece of writing, and i tell you this is how i meant it, this is how
i think you should interpret it---this in fact constitutes more foreclosure
than anything (esp. when the "i" in this latter is more like deus ex
machina---i really don't know who the hell i'm talking to, even if i'm
*never* really certain)... not that you have to listen to me, and not that
there isn't value in such an exchange... so mebbe we should just say it's
another (w)hole... but in any case things might not be taken as intended...
and since we're talking intentions, i intended to elicit only this latter
recognition... if it were me, and if i published something that some folks
found gave offense, i'd probably want to know why, i'd probably speak in my
defense, yes (given that i can be too testy sob at times), BUT i'd be sure
not to try to wish-away any residual harm...
i like your remarks re postmodern architecture, albeit i've never been
entirely convinced that "postmodern" as used by architects correlates
directly with literary practices... you offer me an intepretation, a nice
one, that pertains to how i'm to understand the gothic elements of the
pittsburgh skyline... but hell, i've seen batman, yknow?... i get it,
really... and in fact allEn poe's points are not pointing up into the sky,
and i don't think, i don't think they exist merely to "call attention to
the beauty & the ugliness, the impossiblity, & the cruelty of such
yearnings as once made 'gothic' a viable aesthetic" (and why is "gothic" in
quotes here?)... that is, i don't *think* they're meant merely to call
attention to an aesthetic---i think they do in fact also make a few points
about specific poets and specific poetries... they are not, that is, simply
an example or extension of postmodern (aesthetic) excess... and mind you,
i'm a fan of postmodern excess---albeit this in itself doesn't fully answer
to substantive claims...
as to women's roles, physical appearance, etc. and whether in fact allEn
poe "is only drawing attention to the role that such concerns always
unavoidably seem to
play," the "unsaid" of contemporary criticism: again my problem is with
"is only drawing attention to"---so now i'm beginning to see a pattern...
is this, like, a wish-list of some sort? (yeah, a touch of smartass here,
can't help mself)... i mean, allEn poe doesn't "intend" for his gothic to
cause any personal harm---"he" is only "drawing attention to" those
cultural (?) practices that inflict harm... and allEn poe is similarly not
being "cruel" in his gothic stance--"he" is only "call[ing] attention to"
such cruelty...
ETC... tres meta, n'est-ce pas?...
this is all too clever & witty, really, i'm feeling like i'm caught in one
of alexander pope's nightmares, and i've never really enjoyed riposte,
appearances to the contrary... what ends up happening is that ante's are
raised, and the entire ordeal results in polarization, character
assassination (incl. allEn poe's), etc...
i s'pose attibution may be at the heart of some of my problems with allEn
poe... my archaic sensibility about such stuff (and btw, it predates allEn
poe's use of 'gothic') tells me that somebody should be taking
responsibility for this latter, that somebody or somebodies should be
signing a name on the dotted line that says "we, or i, have created this
fiction"... at the same time i can readily understand *everybody* jumping
on me for this, my predilection... i mean, what's in a name?... and isn't
everything fictional?... etc... i can only offer, finally, a too too heavy
response by way of audre lorde---which is not offered, btw, as gospel...
but for some reason this exchange is bringing it to mind:
i cannot recall the words of my first poem
but i remember a promise
i made my pen
never to leave it
lying
in somebody else's blood.
///
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 11:11:46 CDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joel Felix <U63132@UICVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: ELMSIE
In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 16 Apr 1996 10:54:02 -0400
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 08:48:45 -0500
>Gastr Del Sol- I haven't heard much of them but in interviews the vocalist
>claims to be influenced by Zukofsky, Olson, & Oppen.
>--Dan
David Grubbs is the mainstay of this experimentalist "post rock" group, and
yes the
last I heard he was writing a Masters thesis on Zukofsky's "A." But Grubbs
is not
working in the same poet/songwriter/visionsary vein that Malkmus (Pavement)
is, however cynically. A musician of astohnishing musicianship, Grubbs
works in
Japanese noise forms as well as the acoustic guitar, "singing" rarely. When
he does
have lyrics they're notable for extreme subtlety and seem to derive from
thinking
about the phenomena of the sentence itself, rather than what that sentence
might
say. I think he sings the most on their first album "Serpentine Similar" on, I
believe, Drag City.
joel felix (hi)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 12:50:43 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: why be anonymous?
joel kuzai: with all due respect (and that's true), when you say:
why [do] some of the smartest poets (and some of
the dumbest!) find it necessary to lob little grenades into
the compound of a supposed avant garde (and what a useful
purpose that term serves!)--a "scene" (not a community)
that has served all of them well[?]
the answer comes to me resoundingly:
CUZ IT'S FUN, IMAGINATIVE, CONTESTATORY, etc.
hey, when i started receiving the anti-hegemony posts my first thought was,
this is cute but totally self-enclosed --no one beyond this handful of
avantgardists would even care, so whose hegemony is really being antied?
however, now tht i know the "scene" a little better, i think it's fun that
some folks are having fun with it. i still don't think waves are being made
beyond the shores of this tiny pond (as i've told you, chris, by using the
phrase "a bit precious" to describe the diu project and wondering who a wider
audience wd be), but within that scene, it's lively, fun, and creative.
what's wrong w/ that? the mark of a true scene is if it can handle
contestation. lighten up, everyone.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 12:38:05 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Henry Gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: anonymous
Seems like the original EA Poe's send-ups and pseudonymous practical
jokes were mostly open secrets - tell me if I'm wrong. Seems only
fair that a pseudonymizer should come clean at some point, take off the
disguise. There have been times in the history of oppression when
anonymous writing was necessary - but at least as prevalent & perhaps
more so have been the insidious anonymous attacks in the press on
people who were already politically "marked" or endangered. This
connection is something maybe the DIUees might want to think about.
What I like about the Poe reviews is the inspired mimicry & the
persnickety approach to "style" & "tradition" - it's funny! But
the actual opinions expressed don't mean much to me, & the
anonymity is - exposee-to-be, I suppose.
Getting back to the main subject, however: I, of course, have offended
most of the people on this list at some point, but have always been
forthright in presenting muhself as is, bona fide, the real and the
inevitable & the predictable, the genuine article ("the"), the one &
only, the conditioned & commodified & irreversibly straight-jacketed,
the deconstructed-in-a-decanter, the o/th/her/s/h/elf, the **+++, the
ex post facto lincoln log, the inimitable....--Egbert J. Stanchion
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:11:55 -0400
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From: David Kellogg <kellogg@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>
Subject: Orono: need roomie
A Selfish Plea,
I know a number of people on this list are going to the Orono conference
in June. So am I. Does anybody need a roommate? I'd prefer to pay the
cheaper rate since I don't know if Duke will foot the bill for me as a
lowly adjunct.
Cheers,
David
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Kellogg Duke University
kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program
(919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708
FAX (919) 684-6277
There is some excitement in one corner,
but most of the ghosts are merely shaking their heads.
-- Thomas Kinsella
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:28:21 -0500
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From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: rope try enid ga
ON Thursday, at SIX thirty p.m. there
as I WENT to Babylon a poetry a rope
To see it in the PLAIN o line
reading a reading
and SPONSOR
as tabulating it we calendar
Chris EDGAR was there in the future
and JULIE Patton yes union by Johnny
education being COMPLETE
Walker black, that is this
Thursday in the city
in the usual CITY
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 10:28:07 -0700
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From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: Re: minnesota
At 9:58 AM 4/16/96, Michael Boughn wrote:
>And what's your advice for surviving Walnut Creek, Dodie?
That question's too deep for me, Mike.
But, if you're talking about Walnut Creek, California, perhaps one could
buy a BART ticket and read Ron Silliman's _Bart_ while riding the train
into San Francisco? Then she could get off the train at Civic Center, walk
down Market to 11th, turn left and walk a couple blocks to Minna Street
(where once Marilyn Hacker and Samuel Delany lived, as well as sundry
characters in Spicer's circle) and visit KK and me.
Dodie
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:31:58 -0500
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From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: guided by payment? t(o)eacher Cale. et Richman
mikl---
yes, cale's "hallelejuh" (sic?) is great, that and RUIN's version of
"famous blue raincoat" my fav. cohen remakes...
but, UGHHHHHHHHH, Bruce Springsteen--I don't buy his official story about
the "irony" of rightwingers digging PORN IN DUH USA.....
if he really wanted to be "understood" he would have written a different
song.....
did see patti smith this fall....nice comeback....
i don't know if richard hell will ever do music again....cs
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:34:20 -0500
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From: Robert A Harrison <Robert.A.Harrison@JCI.COM>
Subject: Re: why be anonymous?
about anonymity and its tie to the zapatista movement, i have no problem with
subcommander marcos and the zapatistas using ski masks. THEY DO LOSE THEIR
LIVES if recognized. diu has absolutely nothing to do with the spirit of the
zapatista movement, though their tactics, at least on the surface, seem
similar. first, the zapatistas reveal truths with their satire, about
political corruption, about human dignity. diu does not do this. i get no
sense of striving towards or revealing human dignity from the diu project,
nor even of revealing corruption. subcommander marcos' humor DOES reveal the
resiliancy of an amazing spirit under the worst possible circumstances. my
main argument with the diu project is not their use of anonymity, or of
satire, it is the sense i get that their focus, in this project, is political
on the smallest scale. it'd be one thing if their lives were at risk, or
their souls, and if they were making a stand for these. but, even though they
claim to be anonymous, my bet is that diu is bent more toward publication, job
getting, and recognition through the diu project than not.
Bob Harrison
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 14:39:36 -0500
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From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: Ziolkowski's "Our Son the Arson" is out
Gee I hope I sent you my request for our son.
Send me bill me to
Jordan Davis
c/o Teachers & Writers
5 Union Sq W 7th Fl
NY NY 10003-3306
Thank you thank you,
Jordan
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 14:05:14 -0500
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From: Michelle Roberts <meaghan@UTDALLAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: diu
In-Reply-To: <n1382790070.47316@CTGshare.corp.jci.com>
On Fri, 12 Apr 1996, Robert A Harrison wrote:
> I don't quite see the point
> in ending every issue with acknowledging "the final days of the white race."
> Seems to me that race based reasoning is what needs to finalized, not any
> particular race.
>
> Bob Harrison
>
Exactly. That sort of rhetoric and reasoning is simply divisive,
reactionary and uninteresting.
While it's likely that the "White Race" (as if there aren't different
etnicities within it) as a cultural force will see some changes in its
position in the world, calling that an "end" is about as interesting as
the death of man.
Meaghan
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 15:08:43 -0400
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From: Lisa Samuels <lsr3h@FARADAY.CLAS.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Subject: The future of communication (fwd)
some of you may find this as delightful as i did,
smiling then laughing...
lisa s.
>
>
> > Having chosen English as the preferred language in the European Union
> > (EU), the European Parliament has commissioned a feasibility study in
> > ways
> > to improve efficiency in communications between Government departments.
> >
> > European officials have often pointed out that English spelling is
> > unnecessarily difficult. What is clearly needed is a phased program of
> > changes to iron out the anomalies. The program would be administered by
> > a
> > committee apointed by the participating nations.
> >
> > In the first year, for example, the committee might suggest using "s"
> > instead of the soft "c". Sertainly, sivil servants in all sities would
> > resieve this news with joy. The hard "c" could then be replased by "k"
> > sinse both letters are pronounsed alike. This would klear up a lot of
> > konfusion in the minds of klerikal workers.
> >
> > In the sekond year, bekause of growing enthusiasm, "ch" would be replaced
> > by "c". This would make words like "switc" 20% shorter. Similarly, it
> > will be announsed that the troublesome "ph" would henseforth be replaced
> > by "f".
> >
> > In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted
> > to reac the stage where more komplikated canges are possible.
> > Governments
> > would enkourage the removal of double letters which have always ben a
> > deterent to akurate speling.
> >
> > We would al agre that the horible mes of silent "e"'s in the languag is
> > disgrasful. Therefor, we kould drop thes and kontinu to read and writ as
> > though nothing had hapend.
> >
> > By this tim it would be four years sins the skem began, and peopl would
> > be
> > reseptiv to steps suc as replasing "th" by "z". Perhaps zen ze funktion
> > of "w" kould be taken on by "v", vitc is, after al, half a "w".
> >
> > Finaly, ze unesesary "o" kuld be dropd from words kontaining "ou".
> > Similar
> > arguments vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters.
> >
> > Kontinuing zis proses yer aftr yer, ve vud eventuli hav a reli sensibl
> > riten stil. Aftr tventi yers zer vud be no mor trubls or difikultis and
> > evrion vud find it ezi tu understan esh ozer. Ze drems of ze EU vud
> > finali
> > kom tru.
> >
> > -
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 12:15:09 -0700
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From: "Jeffrey W. Timmons" <mnamna@IMAP1.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Place
Comments: To: "Sheila E. Murphy" <semurphy@azlink.com>
In-Reply-To: <199604151641.JAA18974@nemesis.azlink.com>
sheila
hey! nice to hear from you. i wondered if wed get around to this. and
yes i agree with you and your descriptions of the desert. its just that
my experience of this place is . . . well . . . probably different than
yours. its interesting that such variation can occur in perception
experience place you know? i believe in the desert. i just wish i could
get more of it. i live by papago park and i used to live by south
mountain. great places to see the desert and the sprawl sort of
coexisting or even struggling with each other. but theyre the only
desert i get to see really. i dont drive and here im sure you know thats
a liability. particularly when it comes to the quiet you and i seem to
value so much. and whats worse is that for me and this is tempe specific
there is no quiet . . . or when there is its always so precious. i live
in the flight path of the airport. ug. and if its not the planes its
the dogs. i practically live in a kennel. and when its not those two
its the bar thats nowhere near my house that features heavy metal bands.
and recently its the reconstruction of water pipes in the neighborhood.
its gotten so that not only can i not read during the day but i cant
sleep at night.
ok so this is a big long complaint. sorry. i like it here. its just
that phx for me seems very different--as im sure all places
are--depending on where youre standing or living. even a difference of a
few square yards makes a big difference.
but you know i treasure the desert--where and when i can experience it.
i was riding at south mountain the other day and saw my first rattle
snake. and ive become a real birder since ive moved here. i have three
feeders in my back yard and love to see the doves and sparrows and
finches and thrashers and the mockingbirds and the woodpeckers and wrens....
but like all places its got good and bad in it. riding to classes today
i noted the big brown cloud over phx. ug. but the wind on my skin was
so nice and warm.
well ive gone at length now. im not disagreeing with you just trying to
figure out how we can have these different experiences of the same
place. i really appreciate your writing to me.
best,
jeffrey timmons
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 14:23:02 -0500
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From: Michelle Roberts <meaghan@UTDALLAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: minnesota
In-Reply-To: <199604150535.BAA27088@shell.acmenet.net>
On Mon, 15 Apr 1996, Eryque Gleason wrote:
> >But my advice for surving the Midwest, Maria,
> >is to get yourself a bland husband and a couple of babies and learn to keep
> >your mouth shut.
> >
> >Dodie
>
>
> to which i could add: get one o' them
> cut-off-above-the-shoulders-'bob'-or-what-ev-er-they-call-em haircuts every
> eight months.
>
> oh, and find a driveway to have re-tarred every other time you cut your hair.
>
> eryque
>
OK folks, what is all this lamenting??? You don't live in a shack in a
ghetto outside Bangladesh, so what is wrong with the Midwest? I'm not
interested in defending the area per se, but you see, I grew up under the
wide skies, riding horses, driving on country roads, going to pently of
museums, and I realized early that not every city is Paris, and not every
city can have a Louvre and a poets' graveyard. I got my masters in
Normal Illinois, and I thought that really was the end of the world (one
interesting bar, no museum) until I figured out how many writers live
there. It's the second largest community of writers in Illinois (second
to Chicago of course.) I now live in Dallas, several museums, huge
poetry scene (if you like drinking coffee while someone yells at you),
tons of music, a great farmers market -- I could say the same for St.
Louis where I went to high school. My question is this, why are you
indoors, crabbing about what a lousy place you live in? Go outside.
I've been to San Francisco, it's pretty, but that 60's hangover really
turned me off.
Cheer up and go play,
Meaghan
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 12:23:18 -0700
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jeffrey W. Timmons" <mnamna@IMAP1.ASU.EDU>
Subject: darkly wise
i wasnt following the thread that mentioned the phrase "darkly wise" ...
but did they--who was they?--ever figure out who wrote it?
i was reading popes (i keep typing poop) essay on may and its in there:
something about "man" being darkly wise and rudely great or something.
jeffrey timmons
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 14:27:20 -0500
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From: Michelle Roberts <meaghan@UTDALLAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: malls
In-Reply-To: <POETICS%96041508264861@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
As to malls, those and the nightlife in the artsy parts of town are the
best people watching in America. No Palazzo -- a mall. A place is as
much how you use it and it is its architect's intention.
Meaghan Roberts | ... in our interpreted world...
Ph.D. Candidate - Ethics and Literature |
The University of Texas at Dallas |
Meaghan@UTDALLAS.EDU |
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 12:37:22 -0700
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From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: SPT book consignments
Do you have books consigned at Small Press Traffic?
Due to the changing funding climate, we at Small Press Traffic have decided
that our goal of making small press publications available to the public
will better be met by ceasing operations as a bookstore and by re-inventing
ourselves as a literary resource center-as a non-circulating library, open
to all, regardless of income. Unfortuantely, we do not have the resources
to return the thousands of books consigned to us.
Consigned books may be picked up Saturday, April 27 from noon to 4 p.m. at
Mission Neighborhood Waldorf Kindergarten, Suite 135, Centro del Pueblo,
474 Valencia Street, SF
Questions, call: 415/437-3454. If no one answers and you're connected to a
switchboard instead of directly to our voicemail, enter extension 454 at
the prompt.
Anyone on this list who doesn't live in the Bay Area and has books
consigned with us, you can e-mail me backchannel and we'll see if we can
make you a special case.
Dodie Bellamy
Director
Small Press Traffic
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 12:53:24 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jeffrey W. Timmons" <mnamna@IMAP1.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: minnesota
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960416141408.528C-100000@infoserv.utdallas.edu>
On Tue, 16 Apr 1996, Michelle Roberts wrote:
"I now live in Dallas, several museums, hugepoetry scene (if you like
drinking coffee while someone yells at you), tons of music, a great
farmers market -- I could say the same for St.Louis where I went to high
school. My question is this, why are you indoors, crabbing about what a
lousy place you live in? Go outside.I've been to San Francisco, it's
pretty, but that 60's hangover really turned me off."
michelle we _are_ cheerful. you should see us when were in a bad mood!
but dallas? ug. i went to utd for a short time and was lucky to make it
out alive. even then i had to drive for days just to get out of texas.
dallas seems to me to have all the character of a fastfood restaurant.
too humid too many mosquitoes too republican and you had to drive all the
way to downtown just to find deep ellum (sp?) and then you might miss it
if you didnt know where to look. im just giving you a hard time you
know. but really. between sf and the big d which has a better sense of
place for you? sf has something d will never have. character and soul.
60s hangover? that _is_ part of sf. thats like telling manhattan to
lose the attitude. better to let it have and be what it is than suggest
revisions in the locational and spiritual fibe of the city. if we lost
the "60s hangover" (a characterization that tells me more about you than
about sf) wed lose sf.
jeffrey timmons
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 15:49:54 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Daniel Bouchard <Daniel_Bouchard@HMCO.COM>
Subject: Re: malls
When Pound found something outrageous in a book, wouldn't he write "Malls" in
the margin with many exclamation points?
daniel_bouchard@hmco.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 16:01:37 -0400
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Emily Lloyd <emilyl@EROLS.COM>
Subject: Re: diUSOPollock
Meaghan wrote:
>calling that an "end" is about as interesting as
>the death of man.
I thought "man" was already dead, slayed by "human."
hear hear Maria, on your "lighten up"
& I don't recommend Virginia to anyone
did Jackson Pollock call a painting "Full Fathom Five" ?
USOP just played here. Eigner breathtaking. Woman who ate raisinets one by
one wonderful. Spanish on one side, contradictory English on other side
great. It was odd to me, though, that in a series seemingly committed to
diverse representations, we had the "sex" segment w/intergenerational gayboy
love, interracial het love, & no dykes. Were we all too busy having sex
when that segment was taped?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Emily Lloyd emilyl@erols.com
"It takes time to make queer people"--g. stein
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 16:09:26 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Emily Lloyd <emilyl@EROLS.COM>
Subject: Re: darkly wise
At 12:23 PM 4/16/96 -0700, Jeffrey W. Timmons wrote:
>i wasnt following the thread that mentioned the phrase "darkly wise" ...
>but did they--who was they?--ever figure out who wrote it?
>i was reading popes (i keep typing poop) essay on may and its in there:
>something about "man" being darkly wise and rudely great or something.
That was me, Jeffrey. My god. Pope? No wonder I never came across it
again! Is it a fairly short little thing? If so, could you backchannel it
to me? much rude & great thanks, em
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Emily Lloyd emilyl@erols.com
"It takes time to make queer people"--g. stein
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:13:23 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jeffrey W. Timmons" <mnamna@IMAP1.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Place/fractures
self-indulgence: i wanted to post this as a supplement to my post to
sheila. its my sense of place here.
>> i want to tell you about all the little moments of beauty here
>> but im afraid theyre so compromised. . . .
>>
>> what there was of spring has come and gone.
>> were in summer now. that means the 90s.
>> that requires adjustments. and a fan.
>>
>> yesterday i read for five hours and wanted to go to papago
>> on a ride. i feel out of sorts if i cant get over there
>> once in awhile and remember there is life here after all.
>>
>> it was almost 330 and the elementary school was just getting out.
>> i came to my front window just in time to see this little blond boy pick
>> up a beer bottle--bud always bud--and throw it towards my front
>> lawn.
>>
>> it crashed and splintered on the curb.
>>
>> he saw me the same instant and i yelled "now pick it up!" and "who
>> taught you how to do that?"
>>
>> he ran over saying "ok" and started to pick up the pieces.
>>
>> i hurried to the kitchen and got a plastic sack. i went out and told him
>> to be careful not to cut himself. "dont throw bottles in my yard" i told
>> him.
>>
>> he walked by later with his sitter. he said "hi!"
>> i said "hi."
>>
>> i rode by them on my way out. went up the golf course trails north past
>> the ponds and there not many people were out which made it nice.
>>
>> it was hot and my skin felt the burning heat of the sun.
>> i rode hard against the wind. sweating.
>>
>> i turned west and rode over to the trail that cuts by papago park.
>>
>> the bougainvilla was flush with red.
>> there are these trees with little golden balls all over them.
>> pink cactus blooms.
>> orange wild flowers.
>> and two or three varieties of yellow flowering trees and shrubs.
>>
>> from the hills the yellow punctuates the green and the pink
>> rock of papago.
>>
>> along the trail i slowed to look into the black eyes of a thin
>> cottontail.
>>
>> caught several quail trying to escape into the gardens. they mingle
>> bold calls with avoidance.
>>
>> a shy bird (i wish i knew who) always in the margins of sight.
>>
>> the dogs of the desert (jackrabbits) lopping around.
>>
>> quiet.
>>
>> but once i get to the park the millions of sparkling shards of glass
>> refracting the suns sharp light shocks me.
>>
>> more glass than rabbits.
>> more glass than rocks.
>>
>> i push to the top of a hill greeted by two cans of . . . an empty
>> egg carton a bottle of . . . .
>>
>> i yell "pick up your fucking trash after yourselves!"
>> the wind absorbing my words tossing them into air.
>>
>> then i pick it up for them. more just beyond my efforts.
>>
>> the mountain goats at the zoo surveying the mess too.
>>
>> i went home. took a cold shower. made dinner. watered the lawn. made
>> a special effort to revive the front lawn because its almost dead.
>>
>> reading freneau i hear music coming from my
>> front yard. going to my window again i find one (but who can count the
>> numbers of people who come and go there) of my neighbors entertaining:
>> drinking beer-bud light--and listening to their car stereo right in front
>> of my house.
>>
>> they ask if its alright. fine i say. just dont leave your cans. and
>> they turn down the stereo. which was nice.
>>
>> a bit later something draws me out again to the window. the couple are
>> arguing. something breaks. i look out in the dark and ten cans are
>> strewn and crumpled in my lawn.
>>
>> i get my boots on.
>>
>> i get another plastic sack go outside and start to pick them up. the
>> woman says "its ok its ok" and leaves. the guy is like "mana mana" (cant
>> spell that right on email). one of the kids--also innumerable--helps
>> pick up the cans. the car starts up and leaves.
>>
>> i live in a trashy neighborhood. literally.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 16:15:59 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Alan Sondheim <sondheim@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: minnesota
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960416124152.16590Z-100000@email1.asu.edu>
Jeffrey, Jeffrey, I lived in Dallas for two years and go back a lot and
there's nothing like Deep Ellum or Lower Greenville for that matter; the
clubs are great, there's an arts community, some intersting writing, and
some excellent video artists. As far as the North North Dallas crowd, I
ignore/d them, but then I have the same feeling about Westchester....
Alan
With some new texts and image files -
http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html
Other images at http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 16:40:34 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: E-L-M-S-L-I-E
argh I really shouldn't send again but
that's mystification and gastr's good sure
tony conrad opened ffor them by the way you
buffalofolk at the knitting ffactory
lyrically ahem they're about the same pitch
as the red krayola and that's a 60s hangover
you might enjoy having
mirror repair
and the harp factory on lake street are good
thinking about the sentence though that and
a dollar and a half will still require you
to have good taste.. no more animal testicles
in your songs please--Jd
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 15:48:37 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: why be anonymous?
>the mark of a true scene is if it can handle
>contestation. lighten up, everyone.
maria, i can't exactly disagree with you here, yknow... but on the other
hand, being as how i'm not really a part of any specific community 'cept
this one, poetically speaking (which means i'm overlapping, again, in so
many ways, in so many communities), there's this annoying sort of
outsider-insider innuendo in the allEn poe stuff, and diu at times, that
grates on me... there's a presumption in it, that is, that the 'joke' is
understood as such, and in specific way... which (1) it may not be---as a
joke, i mean, and (2) even if it is, tends to be exclusive, given my
marginal status... it's not being excluded that i find annoying, either...
it's that there's clearly no regard for the effect it produces outside
perhaps of a relatively small circle, and i'm not certain it's appreciated
within this latter... and the anonymous quality don't help things any...
i s'pose it's time to hear from *somebody* who's been roasted by allEn
poe... or perhaps to ask why (correct me if i'm mistaken here) nobody who
has been roasted has posted in re their feelings... who knows?---mebbe i've
got my head up my ass, and nobody's feelings are being hurt, and the vast
majority enjoys the parody, or whatever (not that i'm necessarily with the
majority, but if what i have to say is *that* idiosyncratic, i can't see as
how i'm doing much good bothering mself and others so)...
anyway, i've always thought i had some hard bark on me, but i have to
resist advocating same for everybody... still, i believe there's simply
gotta be some feelings at stake in alla this critique, someplace...
all best//
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 17:01:02 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Orono: need roomie
sorry david i only share rooms w/ male-type guyzies i know very very well,
but i've got the same question. any nonsmoking chick-type guyzies out there
willing to share a room w/ same?--maria d
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 14:13:50 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jeffrey W. Timmons" <mnamna@IMAP1.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: darkly wise
In-Reply-To: <199604162009.QAA15679@smtp1.erols.com>
On Tue, 16 Apr 1996, Emily Lloyd wrote:
>
> That was me, Jeffrey. My god. Pope? No wonder I never came across it
> again! Is it a fairly short little thing? If so, could you backchannel it
> to me? much rude & great thanks, em
Emily, yes, pope! Funny how this stuff permeates our (un)consciouness
and erupts from virtually nowhere, t'aint it? i came across it studying
for my comps and it was just after your thread on this. i want to say
its original with pope but being as the whole essay is a revisioning of
paradise lost the phrase may actually occur there as well. but someone
else will have to find that for you.
darkly wise, and rudely great my self,
jeffrey timmons
EPISTLE II
OF THE NATURE AND STATE OF MAN WITH RESPECT
TO HIMSELF, AS AN INDIVIDUAL
Know then thyself, presume not God to scan,
The proper study of mankind is man.
Plac'd on this isthmus of a middle state,
A being darkly wise, and rudely great:
With too much knowledge for the sceptic side,
With too much weakness for the Stoic's pride,
He hangs between; in doubt to act, or rest;
In doubt to deem himself a God, or beast;
In doubt his mind or body to prefer;
Born but to die, and reas'ning but to err;
Alike in ignorance, his reason such,
Whether he thinks too little or too much:
Chaos of thought and passion, all confus'd;
Still by himself abus'd or disabus'd;
Created half to rise, and half to fall;
Great lord of all things, yet a prey to all;
Sole judge of truth, in endless error hurl'd:
The glory, jest, and riddle of the world!
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 14:34:14 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Sheila E. Murphy" <semurphy@AZLINK.COM>
Subject: Re: Place/fractures
Thanks, Jeffrey, for sharing what accompanies the broken glass, plus all the
snowflake variable shards and what is expended in picking them up. Perhaps
the opposite of selection is that default reflex that responsibility assigns.
You make a specific shard of Phoenix very real. Believe it or not, I've had
some of the same preoccupations this very day, this very morning, and keep
fantasizing/visualizing/pretending? that I'm making any headway. So I
think I am.
Glad you're here, not very far away at all.
Sheila
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 14:55:59 PST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Franklin Bruno <BRUNO@HUMNET.UCLA.EDU>
Subject: malls
On behalf of Rhoda Morganstern:
Don't forget that Gump's had a history of innovative storewindow
displays, a form of 'popular' assemblage that has a modestly
interesting history of its own. Recall: Atget's photos of Paris
shopwindows, Joseph Cornell's appropriation of storefronts' ways of
using space. (Theatricality before Fried.) And don't forget that
Rauschenberg and Johns both designed Macy's (I think) windows before
their art was selling. Of course all this is more the urban-foot-
traffic dept. store of yesteryear, rather than today's climate-
controlled atopia/ziggurat.
fjb
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 18:26:13 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Emily Lloyd <emilyl@EROLS.COM>
Subject: Re: darkly wise
Ah, looked up the Pope myself & his darkly wise isn't the darkly wise I
remember--someone who came after him, probably, making fun...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Emily Lloyd emilyl@erols.com
"It takes time to make queer people"--g. stein
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 18:44:31 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Emily Lloyd <emilyl@EROLS.COM>
Subject: orono & wise
Whoops, sorry, Jeffrey--sent that last message about looking up the Pope
before I got your Pope-inclusive one--now I realize it must sound kind of
rude (but not great) coming after yours---I was just trying to save you some
time--<grin>
Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?: what's (up in) Orono? I've
somehow missed or overlooked knowing. Tell you what, Maria, if I end up
there, I'll room with you & split room costs with David, too, if he'll let
me smoke in his. muahaha em
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Emily Lloyd emilyl@erols.com
"It takes time to make queer people"--g. stein
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 20:55:02 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: why be anonymous?
okay joe it's true, as an easily hurt person, i can sympathize w/ yr protest
of DIU's satire. but then let's have some discussion about that, rather than
attacking them on principle and insinuating (not you, but some others have)
that everything is careerist-oriented. diu's authorship is, it seems, a kind
of open secret, a fun, sometimes insightful, sometimes silly, sometimes
obnoxious epiphenomenon of the POETRICKS scene. maybe i just haven't been
roasted yet...i'll let you know about my hurt feelings when it happens, you
can bet on that...
md
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 22:15:04 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Bernstein <bernstei@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Attention New Subscribers!
The Poetics List now has 380 subscribers. For the last 20 or so, I have
not sent out individual "Welcome to Poetics" messages since I assume that
some of you will already have this message from a friend or from the
EPC. If you do not have a copy of "welcome" message, you will find in
the Poetics pages of the Electronic Poetry Center
http://writing.upenn.edu/epc
which as of today sports a new opening page to go along with a number of
organizational changes (thanks to Loss Glazier!).
If you don't have web or lynx access, send ME, backchannel, NOT THE LIST,
a note with a request for this message and I will e-mail it as a reply. I
still handle all list problems myself, including subscription problems
addressed to "poetics-request" etc. so it does sometime take me a while
to get to such things.
Remember that if your server is having problems, or your disk quota risks
filling up, please send a message to listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu: "set
poetics nomail" to temporarily stop the messages, or else they get bounced
back to us.
Charles Bernstein
bernstei@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 20:56:46 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: minnesota
what's a "60s hangover?" a belief in justice? in affirmative action? bright
colors? non-competitive enjoyment of life? a fascination with the workings
of the mind? alternate states of consciousness? long hair on guys?
valorization of informality? street demonstrations? drumming sessions in
public spaces?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 22:48:42 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: minnesota
Ah, I get it---
maybe all the interesting people in Minnesota are smokers.....
ex-long-haired guys (balding) smokers....cs
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 22:51:56 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Massachusetts
Dear Daniel--
When i worked for MASSPIRG, it was not tourist's doors I knocked on,
but rich people in towns in DUXBURY....
(I don't know if it originated there, but NIMBY is in a george carlin
routine--not in my backyard....) cs.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 23:39:21 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: William R Howe <howe@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: minn stuff
dan-
your question is more complex than my first urge to respond might
suggest what you are seeing as dichotomy between high and low
between mass and elite avant gaunt is more compex than a either
or situation in many respects there are two radically sepparte
communities at work in the us (or more) who have little or no contact
and as such they tend to follow differing rubric of development one
of these (what we have called the mass mall monster) is it seams
iminantly marketable through coffee houses vanity presses writing
pogroms etc the other as mark wallace has repeated said is not tied
to a specific local (any longer) but is tied to a specific set of
aesthetic concerns outside of what makes poetry marketable in any
profitable kind of wayso even though i have said that an avant practice needs to transform society
i also see the task itself as being unachievabl (due in larger part
to the general unsailability of avant work
the avant whatsit (if there is a the) by its very nature disempowers
itself (i.e. it draws upon a larger linguistic and cultural knowledge
base than is curently popular or even common and as such it posits
itself outside of the mainstream in an elitist and somwhat snobish
mannor) and in so doing posits for itself an impossible task (that of
the transformation)
i seem to have gotten completely off the subject but that tends to be
my way the dichotomy can not exist without the mass mall monsters at
the very least recognizing the fact of an opposition if not coming to
accept as plausible some of the aesthetic concerns of the avant w's
lubbock on the other hand seems quite odd in retrospect there is a
thriving mass mall monster poetry community in lubbock and they are
much more receptive to some of my work than say several poets at the
recent nyctalks conference they listened and dealt with the work on
its own level and in ny politics got in the way (as usual)
wrh
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 15:41:00 GMT+1300
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Wystan Curnow <w.curnow@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland
Subject: Re: Place
Comments: To: mnamna@IMAP1.ASU.EDU
Dear Jeffrey,
Good to eavesdrop on your exchange, and others. Its
interesting to gain some sense of the circumstances from which these
postings of ours come. The geography of the net is very abstract,
especially from this side of the world. I've been to Buffalo and frankly
I'm inclined to think everyone on the list lives there and the fact that
there's been nothing in this discussion re-the pros and cons of living
in Buffalo just fuels my suspicions.
One of the features I like about the list is when everyone
says what they are reading. So maybe everyone should put themselves on
the map. Let's systematize this thing, let's hear where you all live,
what's the culture like there? Maybe we could have a points system which
would avoid differences such you had with Sheila? What's a museum worth,
how many points for a desert? Artsy districts? Malls would get minus
point, maybe, unless they had redeeming features like slams on the
escalators, childrens' theatres, or particularly personable
waterfountains. Bookshops will have to have a point system of their own
based on earlier surveys of which ones stocked book by people on the
list and their friends and acquaintances. As would universities covering
at least English departments and Creative Writing departments.Now this
would be especially useful for people such as myself not so familiar
with Minnesota and some of the other largish US places that have been
under the microscope of late; it would give us a tourist map. I would be
happy to work on the same for New Zealand, although maybe no bookshops
at all would get included. But I could come up with a lot of shithole
places, in fact don't get me started on the culture of the whole fucking
country ... (excuse me) I WAS offering
to participate in what I see as a very practical project of use to all
members of the list. Except that we might not agree on the point system.
Would someone like to suggest what should be on the list and then we
could get down to arguing about what a desert's worth etc? What do you
think?
Wystan
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 20:43:33 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Stephen Galen Cope <scope@UCSCB.UCSC.EDU>
Subject: Re: malls
Walter Lew asks:
Can you give us a citation for the passage on Gruen and malls? Thanks.
Actually, I can't. It was sent to me w/o reference. I'll see, though,
if I can't dig something up...
Best,
Stephen Cope
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 22:57:46 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "J. Beer" <jbeer@BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>
Subject: like a bolt of frabric... (fwd)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:29:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: Holly Welker <hwelker@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
To: "J. Beer" <jbeer@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Cc: "B. Yalom" <byalom@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Subject: like a bolt of frabric... (fwd)
Winners of the "worst analogies ever written in a high school essay"
contest. (Actually most of them are similes --but... whatever)
He spoke with the wisdom that can only come from experience, like
a guy who went blind because he looked at a solar eclipse without
one of those boxes with a pinhole in it and now goes around the
country speaking at high schools about the dangers of looking at
a solar eclipse without one of those boxes with a pinhole in it.
(Joseph Romm, Washington)
She caught your eye like one of those pointy hook latches that
used to dangle from screen doors and would fly up whenever you
banged the door open again. (Rich Murphy, Fairfax Station)
The little boat gently drifted across the pond exactly the way a
bowling ball wouldn't. (Russell Beland, Springfield)
McBride fell 12 stories, hitting the pavement like a Hefty Bag
filled with vegetable soup. (Paul Sabourin, Silver Spring)
>From the attic came an unearthly howl. The whole scene had an
eerie, surreal quality, like when you're on vacation in another
city and "Jeopardy" comes on at 7 p.m. instead of 7:30. (Roy
Ashley, Washington)
Her hair glistened in the rain like nose hair after a sneeze.
(Chuck Smith, Woodbridge)
Her eyes were like two brown circles with big black dots in the
center. (Russell Beland, Springfield)
Bob was as perplexed as a hacker who means to access
T:flw.quid55328.com\aaakk/ch@ung but gets T:\flw.quidaaakk/ch@ung
by mistake (Ken Krattenmaker, Landover Hills)
Her vocabulary was as bad as, like, whatever. (Unknown)
He was as tall as a six-foot-three-inch tree. (Jack Bross, Chevy
Chase)
The hailstones leaped from the pavement, just like maggots when
you fry them in hot grease. (Gary F. Hevel, Silver Spring)
Her date was pleasant enough, but she knew that if her life was a
movie this guy would be buried in the credits as something like
"Second Tall Man." (Russell Beland, Springfield)
Long separated by cruel fate, the star-crossed lovers raced
across the grassy field toward each other like two freight
trains, one having left Cleveland at 6:36 p.m. traveling at 55
mph, the other from Topeka at 4:19 p.m. at a speed of 35 mph.
(Jennifer Hart, Arlington)
The politician was gone but unnoticed, like the period after the
Dr. on a Dr Pepper can. (Wayne Goode, Madison, Ala.)
They lived in a typical suburban neighborhood with picket fences
that resembled Nancy Kerrigan's teeth (Paul Kocak, Syracuse, N.Y.)
John and Mary had never met. They were like two hummingbirds who
had also never met. (Russell Beland, Springfield)
The thunder was ominous-sounding, much like the sound of a thin
sheet of metal being shaken backstage during the storm scene in a
play. (Barbara Fetherolf, Alexandria)
His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances
like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free (Chuck Smith,
Woodbridge)
The red brick wall was the color of a brick-red Crayola crayon.
Jeffrey M. Jones, Choral Division
Music Dept.
University of Texas at Austin
Austin, TX 78714
(512) 471-0806
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 06:49:46 +0200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "William M. Northcutt" <William.Northcutt@UNI-BAYREUTH.DE>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 15 Apr 1996 to 16 Apr 1996
>When Pound found something outrageous in a book, wouldn't he write "Malls" in
>the margin with many exclamation points?
>
>daniel_bouchard@hmco.com
Mallocks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mallocks!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mallocks!!!!!!!!!!!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------
Walter Benjamin: "Only a redeemed mankind receives the fullness of its past."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------
William Northcutt
Anglistik I
Universitaet Bayreuth
95440 Bayreuth
email: william.northcutt@uni-bayreuth.de
Tel: 49 921 980612
Fax: 49 921 553641
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 04:49:04 GMT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tom Beard <beard@MET.CO.NZ>
Subject: Re: Place
Wystan said:
>So maybe everyone should put themselves on
>the map. Let's systematize this thing, let's hear where you all live,
>what's the culture like there? Maybe we could have a points system which
>would avoid differences such you had with Sheila? What's a museum worth,
>how many points for a desert? Artsy districts? Malls would get minus
>point, maybe, unless they had redeeming features like slams on the
>escalators, childrens' theatres, or particularly personable
>waterfountains. Bookshops will have to have a point system of their own
>based on earlier surveys of which ones stocked book by people on the
>list and their friends and acquaintances. As would universities covering
>at least English departments and Creative Writing departments.
...
>I would be
>happy to work on the same for New Zealand
Well, I'll be the fool that rushes in where Wystan is yet to tread.
Auckland might start with +5 for the Harbour, +3 for the temperatures, -5 for
the rain, +2 for the cafes, +3 for the wineries and -2 each for the North Shore
and West Auckland. +5 for the Islanders dressing up for church in Grey Lynn,
-3 for St Lukes (Mall), +4 for the Alba readings, -3 for Poetry Live at the
Empire Tavern. All of the decent bookshops in the entire city might get +1
together, but they'd be offset by -1 for the Motorways. -3 for the entire
country in terms of the ridiculous cost of Internet connections, another -2 for
TVNZ and an incalculable amount for the government. Auckland gets +3 for the
Hero festival and -3 for (Mayor) Les Mills, +2 for the Harbour Bridge and -2
for the Sky Tower, +2 for the Comedy Festival and -2 for the Americas Cup.
Karekare and the Waitakere ranges get +4 together, but Auckland gets -6 for not
being Wellington. That comes to, erm, round about zero. Guess who's homesick?
Tom Beard.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 08:14:51 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Kellogg <kellogg@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>
Subject: Re: orono & wise
In-Reply-To: <199604162244.SAA28589@smtp1.erols.com>
Maria, of course, I should have specified. Roommate must be male:
smoking or nonsmoking doesn't matter to me.
Emily: Orono Me., June 19-22, conference on American poetry in the
Fifties. Lots of your cooler academic types; hence the overlap with this
list. Also some good readings yadda yadda yadda.
Cheers,
David
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Kellogg Duke University
kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program
(919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708
FAX (919) 684-6277
There is some excitement in one corner,
but most of the ghosts are merely shaking their heads.
-- Thomas Kinsella
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 08:26:57 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
believe mn is a bastion of liberalism, and that
ca isn't what it's cracked up to be, here's the latest, which will tell you
something about my workplace and also of CA's response to it. yes, it's
true, my univ is trying to take tenure away!
fwd:
From: Tom Walsh <ufa@mnhepo.hep.umn.edu>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 20:13:40 -0500
To: ufa@mnnt1.hep.umn.edu
Subject: Berkeley Resolution
Dear Colleague
For your information, we are circulating a resolution recently
passed by the Academic Senate at Berkeley.
Paula Rabinowitz
Thomas Walsh
University Faculty Alliance
-------------------------------
MOTION ON MINNESOTA THREAT TO TENURE
(as unanimously passed by the Divisional Council on April 8, 1996)
WHEREAS the Academic Senate of the University of California at
Berkeley understands that the University of Minnesota is
contemplating extensive reductions in the protections of tenure
afforded to its faculty, it hereby adopts the following resolution and
statement of principles:
The free and open discourse guaranteed by academic freedom is
essential for a central mission of research universities, which is to
advance human knowledge.
Academic freedom is only as secure as its legal protections,
which are embodied in the institution of tenure. To authorize
university administrators to use discretionary action to dismiss
faculty members, or to force them to resign, may prove cost-
efficient in the short run, but in the long run it will destroy
academic freedom.
The history of the University of Minnesota itself amply
illustrates the necessity for the institution of tenure to protect
academic freedom. In September 1917 Regents of the University of
Minnesota interrogated political science professor William Schaper
regarding his anti-war sentiments. The evening after the
investigation, Schaper was summarily terminated on the grounds
that "his attitude of mind, whether due to conscientious
considerations or otherwise, and his expressed unwillingness to aid
the United States in the present war, render him unfit... to discharge
the duties of his position." Twenty years later, the University of
Minnesota regretted and rescinded this action on the grounds that, as
stated by the Governor of Minnesota, "We cannot suffer a precedent
to stand under which...honorable teachers are humiliated, persecuted
and dismissed in disgrace because their views happen not to
coincide with the views of those in power. The integrity of the
classroom and the integrity of the teaching profession must be
preserved." The University thereupon committed itself to provide
real procedural protection to safeguard the value of academic
freedom. In the contemporaneous words of Charles Beard, the
University of Minnesota gave "encouragement to all who labor for the
maintenance of liberty in inquiry and teaching."
Academic freedom is threatened today by powerful forces for
ideological conformity, just as it was in 1917. The legal
protections of tenure prevent such forces from eviscerating
academic freedom and constricting the open and robust intellectual
life necessary for a healthy university.
THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED by the Academic Senate of the
University of California at Berkeley that the Regents of the
University of Minnesota should cease all efforts to undermine the
institution of tenure, whether by easing restrictions on the
termination of tenured faculty or by forcing tenured faculty to leave
by decoupling their compensation from tenure.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 09:44:46 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Searching for Pam Rehm / Poetry New York Reading and Party
Pam Rehm, are you out there? If you are, could you let either me or
Emmy Hunter know if you are going to read at the Poetry New York Party; she
needs to be able to include you in the advertising.
To All:
The Reading / Party to celebrate the new issue of Poetry New York: A
Journal of Poetry and Translation, containing a number of our List members,
will be held on May 18th from 2-5 at the downtown Knitting Factory,
79 Leonard Street, NYC.
Please come.
Burt Kimmelman
kimmelman@admin.njit.edu
PS. If anyone knows how to contact Pam Rehm, could you please let me
know (yes I'm embarrassed that her address has been lost, despite the
efforts of 3 editors--or because of them)?
PPS. PNY will be considering submissions for its next issue in the next weeks/
months. If you're interested, send 3-4 poems or translations of poems to
me, Tod Thilleman and/or Emmy Hunter, PO Box 3184, Church Street Station,
NYC 10008. Allow up to 4 months for a reply. And, caveat emptor, PNY is
an annual and thus its next issue will not appear until next year at this
time.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:12:15 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Mark Wallace <mdw@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU>
Subject: diu and thoreau
While I can see Maria D.'s point about "lightening up" regarding the DIU
debate so we can actually discuss it, it seems to me that we've been
doing that all along--discussing it, that is. I suppose each of us has
the choice to lighten up or not, as makes sense to us. As for those "who
DIU have satired" I think it's a lot of us, actually--I know that my own
presentation at the NYC Poetry Talks conference was positing the notion
that "avant garde" (if you will) writing is experiencing at the present
time an expanding audience, not perhaps on a mass scale but enough so
that the work is reaching a lot of people in a lot of different countries
and contexts. It's my belief that that is true (and verifiable) that
makes me contest that implication of the DIU satire that the people at
that conference composed some recognizable and self-important "inside
group" that is really all there is to experimental poetries. But those of
us at the conference did NOT represent such an inside group--rather, we
were a gathering of writers of various affiliations and situations, some
of whom had closer or looser connections to anything that might be
described as an "inside" crowd. What is one to make of the presence of
Alex Cigale, for instance, editor of the magazine Synaesthetic which has
sometimes printed avant garde writers, but is equally committed to poetry
by a variety of Russian emigree authors and others--Alex drops in on the
"avant garde scene" but has more significant ties elsewhere.
I have a lot of sympathy for Bob Harrison's annoyance--he wasn't at the
conference (so much for the idea that "all of us who mattered" were
there) and certainly has a right to feel annoyed at any implication that
the DIU satire was aimed at "everyone." I don't think Bob's quite right
about the careerism of the DIU crowd--knowing them to various degrees, I
also know that they mean what they're doing in very serious and complex
intellectual ways. But in that sense I have to agree with Joel Kuszai's
forthright and specific critique of the group in question, and his
directness in naming names. The group means their dive bombing very
seriously, and it's often very funny, but that doesn't mean their satire
is above being criticized--and I think Joel hits, quite specifically, at
some of the weaknesses of what they're doing. So while I agree with Maria
D. that they have a right to do what they're doing, and that it's often
funny, I also think they can be criticized too. After all, if it's okay
for avant gardists to satirize the avant garde, isn't it also okay for
avant gardists to satirize those avant gardists who satirize the avant
garde?
Jeffrey Timmons brought Thoreau's name up in another context, and
I think his work is relevant here. But Jeffrey, to see Thoreau's ideas as
suggesting either that one should bomb people, or go off into the
wilderness to die, is to miss what Thoreau was really about. Thoreau's
work was ALWAYS about social critique, and about pacifism too--it was
never either about blowing anybody up or running away. In his
Massachusetts address, Thoreau puts forward the idea that if one
person--just one person--refuses to participate in a society that
condones slave holding, then the slaveholding system has already ended.
Before one jumps on the supposed naivete of that, one has to recognize
that what he means is that mass political movements are based on
specific individual choices--we choose, one at a time, to be part of this
or part of that, and those choices have ethical dimensions that can
sometimes cause whole systems to fall or change.
Is the avant garde, at this time, changing the sort of "mass
culture" that Bill Howe critiques so well in his recent post? No. Does that
mean
that the avant garde is therefore a worthless inside group endlessly
puffed-up about its own importance? No. Rather, I think that the
situation is that we are a variety of individuals who are part of a
variety of groups that intersect with a variety of social and political
activities, to greater or lesser extents--and one of those groups is the
network of avant garde poetry. Some of us may have more political
efficacy than others, and some of us may be more specifically interested
in aesthetic rather than overtly political matters. Is that a problem? I
don't think so.
Brecht was once asked by Benjamin whether he thought his work was
"serious"--that is, directly political all the time. And Brecht thought
about it and finally said, "well, no, I guess I'm finally too wrapped up
in aesthetic matters to be serious--I worry too much about the
theatre." But Brecht also said "but I think the important thing is that
my attitude is PERMISSABLE--I should have a right to worry about these
things if I want to." And I think that's a key point--that one of the key
values of avant garde work is to consistently make the point that people
have a right to take philosophical and artistic matters seriously, and
that to say so is political in a world where people are denied the right
to take such matters seriously, along with being denied the right in many
cases to make a living or even eat. Or as Rod Smith once told me "I write
poetry because it's a pleasure, and I act politically because I believe
that I, and others, have a right to engage in that pleasure."
Mark Wallace
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 11:09:56 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Henry Gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Sir Edwin
I just learned that Edwin Honig will be knighted by the Spanish Ambassador
next week here in Providence, for his services to Hispanic literature.
He's already a Sir Edwin of Portugal. How many American poets have 2
knighthoods under their belt (so to speak. or hanging from their belts.
He gets an honorary sword.) He told me he would use the sword to
skewer Queen Isabella for expelling the Jews from Spain. I said I didn't
think that sounded very chivalrous.
Maybe Moorish, pre-exile Spain is the future of the U.S.
After Lorca, that is.
Gypsy music.
Sir Edwin sounds just right. The Ambassador is himself a translator -
they're thinking of reading bits of his version of "Alice in Wonderland"
which he trans into Spanish & Sir Ed's english version of Calderon's
"Life is a Dream" (which is playing in NY right now, by the way.)
- Henry Gould
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 08:36:51 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Christopher Reiner <creiner@CRL.COM>
Subject: Parshchikov Update
In-Reply-To: <199604071315.GAA14092@dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com>
A while ago, Ron Sillman wrote:
>
> Alexei Parshchikov (a book is out from Avec)--he was a very successful
> journalist as well as a poet under the old regime, but hasn't made the
> transition to the new one well. After a stint at Stanford, he returned
> to Russia and was (last I heard) pretty much living on the streets of
> Moscow
Just wanted to say that Parshchikov is currently living and writing in
Germany.
--Chris Reiner
P.S. You can read his poem "Cats" by pointing your browser to:
http://www.crl.com/~creiner/syntax/cats.html
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 12:14:26 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michelle Roberts <meaghan@UTDALLAS.EDU>
I have a question for everyone. I'm working on translating a poet who
may be French and who may be Belgian (sp), or some other sort of
francophile. Her name is Yanette Deletang-Tardif. The prof. here who
teaches a translation workshop, Rainer Schulte, has been asking his
friends and contacts in France about her, and so far nothing. I'm
looking to find out about her life, whether any criticism has been
written on her work, etc. Does anyone have any clues? All I know this
that she's teh same generation as Bonnefoy.
If it would help to jog some clues loose, here's a short list of some of
her publications and publishers:
Eclats -- A. Quillet, pub.
Vol Des Oiseaux -- A. Quillet.
Briser N'est Rien -- Sagesse
Morte en Songe -- Sagesse
Les Elements Perdus -- Subervie
Tenter de Vivre -- Denoel
Pressentiment de la Rose -- Debresse
some of her translations:
Poesies de Goethe -- ??
Poesies Completes de Nietzsche -- Les Presses Litteraires de France
Goya -- Arts et Metiers Graphiques
Heinrich Von Ofterdingen , by Novalis -- ... la Bibliotheque de al Pleiade
Also, if anyone has some information on how to get in touch with the
publishers, that could be helpful.
Thanks for anything you come up with,
Meaghan
Meaghan Roberts | ... in our interpreted world...
Ph.D. Candidate - Ethics and Literature |
The University of Texas at Dallas |
Meaghan@UTDALLAS.EDU |
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 12:42:57 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michelle Roberts <meaghan@UTDALLAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: minnesota
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960416124152.16590Z-100000@email1.asu.edu>
jeffery,
i know sf wouldn't be teh fabulous place that it is without that
hangover, and yes, dallas has no real identity except as a huge center
for techno-captialism, and republicans -- the one's i know -- don't
bother me. i suppose my ill-made point is that a place is what you make
of it. Lot's of places in the world have a sense of place for me --
including Drasco, ARk. (which consists of two gas station/grocery stores
and a postoffice) because that's where my grandparent's ranch is. That
whole area is connected to rattlesnakes, cotton mouths (had to shoot one
once) and nearly a thousand acres of rough country to hike in. Plus the
terrific company of my grandparents. That's a sense of "place" to me,
the accretion of memory that lays itself over a landscape or a cityscape.
No, dallas does not have a real cultural identity, but you have to
remember that dallas didn't become the city -- the Metroplex-- that it is
until about 18 years ago. It's a baby compared to sf or ny. It's a
twentieth century city, not a nineteenth century one, and the
implications and effects of that for a city and its residents are
mulitple. anyway, if y'all are having a good time with this thread,
cool. i just got worried cuz you sounded really bummed out to me.
What was such a total drag about UTD? I'm quite aware both the problems
and the potential here -- but I seem to navigating the waters ok.
Meaghan Roberts | ... in our interpreted world...
Ph.D. Candidate - Ethics and Literature |
The University of Texas at Dallas |
Meaghan@UTDALLAS.EDU |
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 12:52:13 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michelle Roberts <meaghan@UTDALLAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: minnesota
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960416124152.16590Z-100000@email1.asu.edu>
And now that I think about it, Jeffery, what does my phrase "60s hangover"
mean to you? I use it because I was born in 1968. The sixties are not
my era. I was learning to walk and talk, and have the vaguest memory of
watergate. But then, I also remember my first birthday. I'm one of
those non-slacker gen-xer's who tired of being told how cool that era
was. I'm living in the aftermath and I don't think it's all that cool.
yes, when one of my x-hippie profs introduced me to Marcuse, I said
thanks and read _One Dimensional Man_ avidly and lived in its shadow for
three months -- the argument is truer now that it was then. And I really
like SF. I had a fabulous time there and wuld go back in heartbeat. I
like the "hangover" but I don't like some the people who are caught in it
-- it's like they quit evolving and living in 1974. And calcification
always puts me off. I hope it doesn't happen to me. I guess I'm just
sick of being told that there is no way my generation will ever
experience the exhilaration of the 60s or anything like it :(. So? Msot
of the people who were my age then didn't experience it either, the
counter culture was just not that huge. Very big, but not total.
Anyway, now I'm being crabby. I'll stop.
meaghan
Meaghan Roberts | ... in our interpreted world...
Ph.D. Candidate - Ethics and Literature |
The University of Texas at Dallas |
Meaghan@UTDALLAS.EDU |
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 13:17:08 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michelle Roberts <meaghan@UTDALLAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: minnesota
In-Reply-To: <960416205447_515401933@emout04.mail.aol.com>
On Tue, 16 Apr 1996, Maria Damon wrote:
> what's a "60s hangover?" a belief in justice? in affirmative action? bright
> colors? non-competitive enjoyment of life? a fascination with the workings
> of the mind? alternate states of consciousness? long hair on guys?
> valorization of informality? street demonstrations? drumming sessions in
> public spaces?
>
Yes, that's the up side, and it would be wonderful if the world would
turn out that way -- just terrifically cool. And my still rather
amorphous dissertation aims to be yet another voice in favor of a tasty
adn friendly world for us humans. WHat I meant saying that derogatorily
is that whole bunches (and I said this in a previous post) of folks are
stuck in those years, they quit being of world, became brightly colored
ghosts, and don't seem interested in bringing that spirit into the
present where I and many others have to live -- having been babies then.
I don't get free love, I get AIDS, adn that's the dark spooky part of my
reality. I don't get high grade LSD, I get that crap with stricnine and
speed in it -- which does not feel good. I think that "drumming in
spublic spaces" is beautiful and very Deleuzian and joyful and all those
things I wish for, but unfortunately I can't be seduced by the sort of
"beautiful soul" aspect of it. Yes, utopia can be Now, but it can't last
without ..... oh, please just tell me to shut up. That generation, most
of which were not counterculture types, didn't do the Work, and yet the
ones that turned in yuppies want to claim that they "were there". I'm
not saying this aobut the folks on this list, that would be a really
stupid assumption on my part. I'm reacting to the fact that the whole
joy joy and siblinghood nature of that era is more and more endangered
these days and in very harsh practical ways, and I don't want to see it
all extinguished. My dad once told me that I would have made for a
terrific flower child. My response was,"Maybe, but we'll never know." I
think I would have made a better protestor.
Ok, now I hope I'm really done complaining.
For those of you who are slamming up against the end of the semester as I
am, I wish you well,and to those of who aren't in that position, enjoy
yoursevles all the time.
Meaghan
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 15:43:27 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Emily Lloyd <emilyl@EROLS.COM>
Subject: Re: 60's hangovers/place
But Meaghan, if your problem with 60's folks is that they sold out and
became 80's folks, shouldn't the non-sold-out people (hangoverers?) please
you? I'm more likely to take umbrage at the 90's co-opting of tie-dye,
peace signs, what-have-you & turning a revolution (yes, I'll say it) into
pop clothes, original intent almost entirely absent. But not even that much
umbrage, only enough so that I can say that fabulous word "umbrage."
Born in '74 myself, I understand your anger re: AIDS (mainly, weak acid a
far second) and the relative inability for us equisers to find free love,
etc., freeing now that it's tinged w/terror. (Perhaps Rilke anticipates us
with his beauty/terror thing). Or quitting jobs freeing when it's so damn
hard to *find* one these days. So I can understand being *jealous* of the
60's. But please, please, I'll take a 60's hangover (or resurgence, or
continuation) over an 80's one anyday. I'd love to crawl back there, & I
admit my reaction to 2000 is an urge to flee in the opposite direction. As
for public drumming, my old america online handle was "drumcircle."
Re: place, and how it affects us. HUGELY, I think. Un-or-inestimably.
Growing up in suburban VA...I almost yawped the first time I went to New
York, on a 7th grade class trip. I bought NYC picture books. NYC t-shirts.
(Yes, people *do* buy those). I wrote terrible poems about NYC all year.
You never saw such a desperate suburban southchild. But perhaps my stakes
as a queer and yours as someone who can abide republicans were
different...I'm aware that there are only a few places in the country where
I can live open and not be one of 3 possible dating options in town. and
that 60's hangover place is one of 'em.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Emily Lloyd emilyl@erols.com
"It takes time to make queer people"--g. stein
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 15:49:18 CST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Baratier <dave.baratier@MOSBY.COM>
Subject: ghost books
Dear Peter Q,
Found one:
Anne Waldman's _Kill or Cure_ lists a book called _Suffer
the Mysterium_ which never was published.
David Baratier
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 14:40:10 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Christopher Filkins <filch@POBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: Parshchikov Update
I doubt very seriously that Alyosha was living on the streets of Moscow.
He may have been walking around in a daze unshaven and unbathed looking for
all the world like a homeless bloke but he has parents there, with whom I
know he was staying, and he also is the "owner" of a flat in Moscow so the
rumor as to his past homelessness is false.
Since his stay at Stanford he has lived in Switzerland, Germany, Los
Angeles, and Moscow.
As for his staying in Germany, that is understandable given that his wife
Martina is Swiss from the German sector. Here's hoping he's doing well in
Germany as he has told me several times that he has no intention of
learning the German language and if he ever ends up in Germany he'll refuse
to speak anything but English.
The difficult "transition" which Ron Silliman mentions does not stem from
politics, but rather from a certain "proclivity" which is shared by many
people regardless of the particular regime they live under. Last time I
talked to the Parschikovs he was doing much better.
Christopher
>A while ago, Ron Sillman wrote:
>>
>> Alexei Parshchikov (a book is out from Avec)--he was a very successful
>> journalist as well as a poet under the old regime, but hasn't made the
>> transition to the new one well. After a stint at Stanford, he returned
>> to Russia and was (last I heard) pretty much living on the streets of
>> Moscow
>
>Just wanted to say that Parshchikov is currently living and writing in
>Germany.
>
>--Chris Reiner
>P.S. You can read his poem "Cats" by pointing your browser to:
>http://www.crl.com/~creiner/syntax/cats.html
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 18:40:59 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Alan Sondheim <sondheim@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Heather
In-Reply-To: <v02130500ad9b1f9060d1@[198.147.97.98]>
Kyoto-LUGAL
If I die, may I die in one of the twin cities of Kyoto!
May I die in that forlorn one, that of corrupt transmissions, emptied,
of bots and people!
tak-ku LU _EL-LAM_ MUS- an ku- en- zi da- me-e- el- la _SUM_ an te- iz-
zi 1 MA.NA.KU.BABBAR pa-a- i tak-ku IR- sa a-pa-a-as-pit a- ki:
If a free man kills a snake and speaks another's name,
he gives a pound of silver; if a slave does that one, he's killed!
I wander the halls of the One, knowing the Other is full of laughter.
I am from the URU of Kyoto, the KUR of Kyoto; I am DINGIR there.
My bots are no longer my own; taking _upu_ runes,
I have refused quota to myself, harboring the bytes of a poor man!
Goat. Goat. Goat. Goat. Goat.
If I die, may the Yurt of Kyoto greet me!
May the mewling human, squeezed, flood Kyoto with bones and cauldron!
Hieroglyphs! Twin Worlds torn apart at the base!
Death in one, multitudes in the other!
(I dream of the multitudes!
I swarm among them, alas, only in my dreams!)
If I die, may I die in one of the twin cities of Kyoto!
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 09:45:20 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Mark Roberts <M.Roberts@ISU.USYD.EDU.AU>
Subject: AWOL: Heather Cam's book launch (forwarded)
Just in case anyone is passing through Sydney tonight...........
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 06:36:11 +1000
>To: awol@ozemail.com.au
>From: awol@ozemail.com.au (awol)
>Subject: AWOL: Heather Cam's book launch
>
>The following message has been posted by AWOL on behalf of Gleebooks.
>Please address any enquiries to the contacts listed below.
>
>
>
>********************************
>
>
>
>You are invited to the official launch of Heather Cam's second collection
>of poetry THE MAJESTIC ROLLERINK to be launched by Robert Adamson upstairs
>at Gleebooks (49 Glebe Point Road Glebe NSW). Thursday 18th April 6.30 for
>7pm.
>RSVP David or Roger (02) 660 2333.
>
>
>AWOL
>Australian Writing On Line
>awol@ozemail.com.au
>http://www.ozemail.com.au/~awol/
>PO Box 333 Concord NSW 2137 Australia
>Phone 61 2 7475667
>Fax 61 2 7472802
>
__________________________________
Mark Roberts
Student Systems Project Officer
Information Systems
University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia
M.Roberts@isu.usyd.edu.au
PH:(02)351 5066
FAX:(02)351 5081
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 14:17:31 GMT+1300
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Wystan Curnow <w.curnow@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland
Subject: Anthologies
Dear List,
I'd like to pass on some info about the new Oxford Anthology of
New Zealand Poetry. Oxford and Penguin have over recent decades been the
publishers of the standard anthologies of the nation's verse. Some of
these have been canon-making or breaking, the platform for substantial
critical statements, and have occasions serious debate, most have been
professionally done and generally brought credit to their editors. Both
publishers have anthologies currently in print which are used for
university courses and available in a range of bookstores. But the new
Oxford is something different, and I would be interested to know whether
any of the practices of the publisher and the editors have any parallels
elsewhere.
The first I heard of the project was a letter from Oxford to me
as a teacher of New Zealand poetry (which I am not) at the University of
Auckland, asking me what I would like to see in a new poetry anthology:
which poets, etc. Market research. A lot of these letters went out.
Next I heard was a set of proofs from Oxford of poems of mine in the
anthology. No letters from the editors (there are three of them) asking
permission, suggesting selections, just the proofs, The letters arrived
a week or so later but the damage had been done by then and there were
some angry poets around. This, of course, had been a mistake, but an
indicative one. The chief editor was at this time on a 4 month residency
in Japan. The selection of my work, for example was entirely of already
anthologized work, and included nothing published in the last 15 years
and this appeared to be a rather common pattern. In other words in many
cases selection was just a keyboarding exercise.
The letter seeking permissions, when it did arrive, proposed
royalities even more derisorily small than usual. This was because a new
basis for calculating the percentage had been struck using the wholesale
price instead of the retail. Most people signed up but some, including 2
poets without whom no such anthology could proceed did not. They asked
for more money (partly because their work was being published overseas
at much better rates). Others, offended by the farce of a selection
process postponed signing until they had negotiated a selection more to
their liking. When its was learned that the publishers had in fact made
some special deals with poets who had demanded more, those who had
signed on the understanding that everyone was signing the same contract
became concerned, some pulled out, and those who hadn't decided to delay
doing so on that score as well. We were told that the editors and even
the managing editor herself would be making up the difference out of
their own royalties and/or pocket! Well, that idea was abandoned when
the boss in Melbourne said it was not on and the poet's it appeared far
from charmed or appeased by the notion had become even more pissed off
as a result. When finally the biggest deal was done, a group of us had
to decide what we would do, pull out, spread the word to all who had
signed about what we knew was happening? No one finally was prepared to
put in the energy. We ended up in fact negotiating not the quantity but
the composition of our selections, obliging the editors to do the work
one would have expected of them in the first place. That said, the
climate in which these discussions took place was hardly ever healthy.
The editors and publishers were being driven by fears of the book
running off the rails althogether and by pressures of time: a desire to
meet deadlines suitable to the academic marketplace and the annual book
award submissions would you believe? Other sorts of judgements were
secondary. Three of us refused any royalty, we 'donated' the poems; not
that that seemed a very satisfactory position to have ended up with.
I would be most interested in what people on the list have to
say about these sorry sequences of events. About the behaviour of the
publishers, are they and to what extent are they, out of line with
practices elsewhere? And of the editors? And what should "we" have
done? It always seems to me that the multi-national publishing houses
iin fact function to isolate writers, markets, reading communities from
one another rather than the reverse, all the better to exploit them.
Wystan.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 00:42:36 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Eryque Gleason <eryque@ACMENET.NET>
Subject: Re: walnut creek
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960416141408.528C-100000@infoserv.utdallas.edu>
Mike, if you do indeed mean walnust ckreek, california (with or without
the typos), i should prolly chip in, i spend a few weeks a year there with
my folks. I'd take dodie's advice and go visit her and kevin. It's a
nice drive in the evenings after rush hour from walnut creek (if you've
got a car. the bart reminds me of disneyland after using chicago L trains
for three years), npr there plays a lot of good folk blues, and i found
the hills to be relaxing and pleasant. Dodie and kevin have almost as
much shelf space as they do books, and tacked to the wall in the kitchen
is a flowery work glove with silverware attached to the fingers, a prop
from a play. I thought it was edward scissorhands' garden attachment.
Kevin invited me to try it on, "it really works!" But kevin, you never
said what it worked *as*...
Eryque
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 21:01:59 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: main <feathers@U.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: minn stuff
In-Reply-To: <199604170339.XAA21993@conciliator.acsu.buffalo.edu>
william--
and what, i wondering, would you say made the lubbock crowd more
receptive to the work than, say, nyctalks crowd? i'm wondering, too,
whether a crowd that's politicizing the work isn't more _receptive_ than
a crowd that's simply passively absorbing the work: i.e., resistance as
ideal reception. i agree w your take on a-g's double-bind. what i find
disturbing isn't so much the dichotomy between "mall" poetry and a-g, but
the a-g's dichotomizing of the _audience itself_: high/low. again, i
think that some of the most interesting a-g work has come out of
responses (as "audience") to the "pop" matrix: not (as i take yr
definition of mall poetics to be) merely passively
reflecting media images, values, etc., but incorporating them (as the
media, in turn, incorporate what's outside of it) via satire, pastiche,
reconfiguration (montage, collage, chance operatives, etc.). so, not so
much a distinction of the materials, but the _uses_ of them. and, yes,
this is where these two part ways.
but a poet who turns his/her back on an audience w which s/he
can't identify is as provinicial as an audience that turns its back
on a poetry w which they cannot identify. and this is what all
provincialism runs the risk of: a double isolation.
--dan
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 00:31:34 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: William R Howe <howe@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: AGro poetics
dan-
this schizm stain between an ag audience and an agro audience has
more to do with definitions than with a performer's (or preformer's)
alienating the audience to one degree or another by this i mean that
if an audience cannot seehear a work as poetry it isn't in so far as
that performance of it is concerned it is only when an audience is
willing to forego there own preconcieved knotions about what makes
poetry poetry that ag and agro can meat in a kind of roundabout way
this is how i would answer your question in lubbock there was a
suspender of expectations and at the nyctalks there were other agendas
on the table that interfeared with the process i should also add that
most of the people at my performance at the nyctalks thing were quite
receptive perceptive and expressed this to me afterwords but were more
people who were offended in nyc then at a roughly comparable reading i di
did in lubbock (meaning about the same people present and i performed
the same major piece at both although the nyc performance by its very
nature nurture was shorter [i read with several other people])
provincialism though that's a different kettle of pigs
wrh
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 10:06:19 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: Re: Place
In-Reply-To: <5EAEAC47402@engnov1.auckland.ac.nz> from "Wystan Curnow" at Apr
17, 96 03:41:00 pm
> I've been to Buffalo and frankly
> I'm inclined to think everyone on the list lives there and the fact that
> there's been nothing in this discussion re-the pros and cons of living
> in Buffalo just fuels my suspicions.
The magic of Buffalo, Wystan, has to do with what John Barth so aptly
called the flourescence of decay. It's a bit like living in one of
those Romantic English engravings of the ruins of Carthage (in the
1890's Buffalo had the highest per capita income in the US), but
without the Romantic part. Call it the American future. In the midst
of that is an intense and lively community, like the crystal in the
heart of a geode. I suspect the reason you don't hear much about it
here is because most of the Buffalo people on this list are in the
Poetics programme at UB and fly in to Buffalo from NYC once a week.
Mike
mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 09:14:41 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: 60's hangovers/place
just a note to say that those of you interested in discussing the 60s
ougtta try tuning in to sixties-l (---and i don't mean to suggest in the
slightest that you shouldn't be discussing same hereabouts!)... i'm not
sure what they're talking about these days, but it used to be a great place
to chew over precisely the sortsa things talked about here, and w/o
necessarily framing it in poetics terms... mebbe ron silliman is still on
that list (ron?), i don't have subscription info. handy, but it used to be
you subbed through <listproc@jefferson.village.virginia.edu>
for my part, i could sense the dying embers of the counterculture in the
early 70s (again, born in '55), but could never have been the protester
others of my age were... largely methinks due to my upbringing
(democratic-liberal), class situation (first working class, then
welfare-class), and on reflection, where i ended up campus-wise
(math/engineering) and the circumstances of my particular place in time...
but i'm busy in my classes these days trying to argue that the sixties,
which for me begin with kennedy's assassination and end with nixon leaving
the white house (again, 'nother big discussion about this time-frame on
sixties-l---and i'd situate the sixties in toto as part of a more general
postwar drift), contain lessons for us about all of the incredibly
interesting shit going on today that seems somehow to go unnoticed in
mainstream mains and eddies...
anyway//
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:06:51 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Bill Luoma <Maz881@AOL.COM>
Subject: Help with Michel Butor
i wonder if y'all have time to help a hack translator.. I'm working on
Michel Butor's Rumeurs de la Foret.
The line i'm puzzled by is
De craquement en craquement je tisse mes virages,
de grincement en grincement j'escalade mes tours.
The poem is a series of one-liners told by a tall tree, chronicalling its
life. From the above line, i get the sense the tree is stretching its limbs
and cracking its ? what ? lengthy position?
Grammatically i don't understand the "de . . . en" adverbial construction.
help
Bill Luoma
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 09:48:38 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ken Edwards <100344.2546@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: like a bolt of fabric...
I loved some of those similes. In particular:
"Her vocabulary was as bad as, like, whatever. (Unknown)"
and
"Her date was pleasant enough, but she knew that if her life was a
movie this guy would be buried in the credits as something like
"Second Tall Man." (Russell Beland, Springfield)"
seem to have some wit about them, but
"Long separated by cruel fate, the star-crossed lovers raced
across the grassy field toward each other like two freight
trains, one having left Cleveland at 6:36 p.m. traveling at 55
mph, the other from Topeka at 4:19 p.m. at a speed of 35 mph.
(Jennifer Hart, Arlington)"
took the top prize for me, for surrealism.
As part of the daily grind, I take in typesetting, including for a rather cheesy
poetry magazine. Here's one I encountered just this minute:
He pressurizes the accelerator into submission,
The speedo twitchy as a nervous penis.
Yes, well. A newspaper here has been running a "Which is the worst line of
poetry in the English language?" feature. Yesterday's nominations were:
The gay moose in jocund gambol springs
(Joseph Howe, Canadian poet 1804-73)
Irks care the the crop-fed bird
(Browning)
For still, the more he works, the more do his weak ankles swell
(Wordsworth)
Any other contenders?
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 08:43:35 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jeffrey W. Timmons" <mnamna@IMAP1.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: diu and thoreau
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9604170952.A22695-0100000@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>
On Wed, 17 Apr 1996, Mark Wallace wrote:
> Jeffrey Timmons brought Thoreau's name up in another context, and
> I think his work is relevant here. But Jeffrey, to see Thoreau's ideas as
> suggesting either that one should bomb people, or go off into the
> wilderness to die, is to miss what Thoreau was really about. Thoreau's
> work was ALWAYS about social critique, and about pacifism too--it was
> never either about blowing anybody up or running away.
Mark, of course, you are quite correct. And I agree with you
completely. However, what I believe I said was that it is interesting
how closely the unabomer's way of living and Thoreau's--at least in
Walden--actually were. I think the former, inevitably, grows out of
the latter. But, yes, a perversion and a twisted bastardization of
Thoreau. But even Civil Disobedience sounds like so much extreme
right-wing anti-federalism that it is difficult to distinguish the two.
I mean HDT's whole take on the immorality of the government (and the
individual's need and right to detach one's self from it) essentially lay
the ground work for such retrogressive and reactionary events persons and
acts as waco the freemen the unabomber et al.... I'm not saying HDT was
a facist. Clearly not. But I am saying that his ideas and praxis are
grafted onto an ideology that takes them in a less socially and publicly
beneficial direction. I would suggest that Thoreau has, to some degree,
been over-taken by contemporary history; and that our reading of him
cannot help but be influenced by recent events.
Mark, yes, to see HDT as suggesting we should blow someone up is to miss
his point. But I didn't miss it. The unabomber did.
Best,
Jeffrey Timmons
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:56:52 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Henry Gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Help with Michel Butor
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:06:51 -0400 from <Maz881@AOL.COM>
On Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:06:51 -0400 Bill Luoma said:
> i wonder if y'all have time to help a hack translator.. I'm working on
>Michel Butor's Rumeurs de la Foret.
>
>The line i'm puzzled by is
>
>De craquement en craquement je tisse mes virages,
>de grincement en grincement j'escalade mes tours.
From one hack to another: Butor seems to be working in a lot of puns here:
craquement means creaking of treelimbs but also chattering of teeth;
grincement means both grating & gnashing. I take "de cracque.. en etc.
to be like "de plus en plus", more and more...i.e. "Creaking and creaking..."
Virages - plural of virago? Both a virago ("tempestuous or mannish woman"
says dictionary) and a catamaran - boat made of lashed logs.
Creaking and creaking I weave my catwomen,
Grating and grating I scale my towers...
- Henry Gould
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:53:54 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Leddy <cfml@EIU.EDU>
Subject: Bad Poetry
In-Reply-To: <POETICS%96041812104724@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
You can find bad lines by the score (and whole poems too) in D. B. Wyndham
Lewis' anthology The Stuffed Owl. Wordsworth is well-represented and
provides the volume's title.
Michael Leddy / Charleston, IL
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 12:56:14 -0400
Reply-To: Robert Drake <au462@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Robert Drake <au462@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Help with Michel Butor
"the crabmeat is crabmeat i teased in mirages,
the mincemeat is mincemeat i've hoisted in garages..."
hop tha heps
lbd
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 12:56:50 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Daniel Bouchard <Daniel_Bouchard@HMCO.COM>
Subject: Re: like a bolt of fabric...
>>Yes, well. A newspaper here has been running a "Which is the worst line of
>>poetry in the English language?" feature. Yesterday's nominations were:
>>Any other contenders?
___________________
"A terrible beauty is born"
(Yeats)
Ken: Where is "here?"
daniel_bouchard@hmco.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 14:44:52 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Eryque Gleason <eryque@ACMENET.NET>
Subject: Re: Bad Poetry
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960418115135.8A-100000@ux1>
Michael, was the anthology *supposed* to represent the bad lines in
poetry, or was it a 'happy' accident?
Eryque
On Thu, 18 Apr 1996, Michael Leddy wrote:
> You can find bad lines by the score (and whole poems too) in D. B. Wyndham
> Lewis' anthology The Stuffed Owl. Wordsworth is well-represented and
> provides the volume's title.
>
> Michael Leddy / Charleston, IL
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 10:42:36 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Virgina Cure
In-Reply-To: <199604180403.AAA19332@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
Emily -- which VA suburb was that? I did 3 years in Arlington myself --
slipped away from NY school trip to check out bookstores of Manhattan,
which my other trip skippers found an odd preoccupation --
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:32:32 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jeffrey W. Timmons" <mnamna@IMAP1.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Place
Comments: To: w.curnow@auckland.ac.nz
In-Reply-To: <5EAEAC47402@engnov1.auckland.ac.nz>
On Wed, 17 Apr 1996 w.curnow@auckland.ac.nz wrote:
> Its
> interesting to gain some sense of the circumstances from which these
> postings of ours come. The geography of the net is very abstract,
> especially from this side of the world. I've been to Buffalo and frankly
> I'm inclined to think everyone on the list lives there and the fact that
> there's been nothing in this discussion re-the pros and cons of living
> in Buffalo just fuels my suspicions.
yes. perhaps we could append little bios with our geographic
qualifications affliations predilictions prejudices and biases? yes
though. it would be good to "ground" our discussions sometimes. place
is important. i like the net but theres no substitute for placing
ourselves in geography. i dont think the net obliterates it but there is
an abstraction that i find as well not always to my taste.
bubbalo? oops. buffalo? i think they have lots of snow there. they
make tunnels in it to get to work. they have igloos and cut holes in the
ice to fish. right?
> One of the features I like about the list is when everyone
> says what they are reading. So maybe everyone should put themselves on
> the map.
yes thats always fun. though im embarrassed sometimes. usually you
folks are reading all these new poets and theory and im deep into the
18th-C since im studying for my comps. im reading or have recently read:
bartrams travels
freneau poems
pope poems
jeffersons notes on virgina
franklins autobiography
shaftesburys characteristics
Let's systematize this thing, let's hear where you all live,
> what's the culture like there?
good idea. i like it. yall?
Maybe we could have a points system which
> would avoid differences such you had with Sheila?
another good idea. but i think the differences are illuminating.
> I could come up with a lot of shithole
> places, in fact don't get me started on the culture of the whole fucking
> country ... (excuse me)
hahahahahaha.... yeah tell me about it. at least i can leave the state
and go to another one though.
on a scale of one to ten a desert is most definitely a ten. but it
depends upon the size quality and character of the desert. litter and
dunebuggies and shotguns would impede a high rating.
good project though. perhaps we could create a sort of poetics travel guide?
jeffrey timmons
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:45:36 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jeffrey W. Timmons" <mnamna@IMAP1.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: minnesota
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960417123410.23842E-100000@infoserv.utdallas.edu>
michelle
yes i agree with you on accretion. but there is also a sense i think of
a place being able to define itself for you. theres a cliff on the
columbia river (portland oregon) that juts hundreds of feet out and over the
river valley. hawks and swallows roll on the wind and you have to keep your
body low to the rock because the winds are so strong you may lose your balance.
you can see for miles up and down the columbia. the boats and cars and
sailboarders tiny and far away. there is no way it cant impress upon
you. but yes too it is history or personal associations that really matter.
i guess i have a bias against dallas though. i had a miserable
experience there. i mean it had potential but i wasnt ready for it. i
had lived in portland for most of my life and dallas is a shocking
change. i just remember it didnt have what i felt was any sense of
character or even the bohemian attitude i found so attractive and
necessary to my own life. i thought utd was too small and
insular--though i felt it had great potential especially with its
faculty. in general i just didnt know what i was getting my self into
and when i found that it wasnt the place for me i left. went back to
portland and did my ma there. it was the right thing to do.
i hope you dont think i was being too hard on utd. i could go tell you
stories about asu too. each place has its ups and downs though huh?
> i just got worried cuz you sounded really bummed out to me.
hey thats nice. i appreciate it. no i think some of us are having fun
on this. and its important to me. i think it is important because ive
lived for the last two years sort of without a home. my girlfriend lives
in dc and i live here and were both from portland. in a sense i have
three homes. one i am forced to be in another i go to as often as i can
and another i havent been to in nearly two years. luckily im taking my
comps may 1 and get to move to dc to do my dissertation and im going to
portland to see my family may 12.
thanks for your posts. its really good to talk with you. keep in touch.
best
jeffrey timmons
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 12:09:17 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jeffrey W. Timmons" <mnamna@IMAP1.ASU.EDU>
Subject: hang/over
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960417124400.23842G-100000@infoserv.utdallas.edu>
meaghan
yes i understand your sentiments entirely about being post-1968. im a
bit earlier (1964) but i think the sentiment is right: we have lived in
the shadow of that era so much that it can be oppressive and frankly
somewhat disgusting. especially all the rehash and retro rehash of the
period in fashion and music. ug. but i like to make a distinction
between the sort of fadishness of its half-life and the unprecedented
social upheavals that went on. in too many ways the 60s and early 70s
have either been domesticated sanitized or derided in popular culture or
been subject to the supposedly moral reformations of its "perversions."
i dont know whats worse: blaming the era for its immorality and causing
our present ills or coopting its fashions in watered down commercial
commodifications. i wish that some of that same questioning and
rebellious spirit were more a part of our culture. were in too much of a
hurry to distance ourselves from it. the problem in that lies in how
quickly were pushing people into a competitive world without suggesting
to them that there are options--are at least questions about that world.
if nothing else its the 60s that first presented the opportunity to ask
those questions on a societal level.
i went to portland state university where there were riots in the early
70s. i wasnt there but i like to consider my time there as somehow
connected with that spirit. psu at one point did away with sports i
believe. and they were a haven for returning students for mothers with
children wanting to pursue education. when i was there (1986-1993?) you
could still the lingering residues of this consciousness permeating the
place. but increasingly it gave way to homogenization.
the 60s are not my era either. but maybe ive read too much hunter s.
thompson. i remember watergate . . . no so much the hearings or anything
but i remember watching nixon leave the whitehouse and resigning. not in
that order. and i really cant stomach the man. its odd that i have such
a feeling since its not my generations concern. but i really cant say
how much i resent him. and as for hippies . . . yeah well its not for
everyone. i wish life were so easy for me. but its not my path. nor
does it seem yours. perhaps your disdain is not so much with the 60s as
it is for a cliche of the 60s you see repeated and replayed in them?
i guess my question for you would be: is it the 60s or is it something
more ideological you dont care for? and if so what?
jeffrey timmons
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 12:22:41 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jeffrey W. Timmons" <mnamna@IMAP1.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: 60's hangovers/place
In-Reply-To: <199604181414.JAA09235@charlie.acc.iit.edu>
joe
you said:
> and i'd situate the sixties in toto as part of a more general
> postwar drift), contain lessons for us about all of the incredibly
> interesting shit going on today that seems somehow to go unnoticed in
> mainstream mains and eddies...
could you elaborate?
jeffrey timmons
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 15:35:54 -0400
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Coffey <MCOFFEY@PW.CAHNERS.COM>
Subject: Re: Place -Reply
i'm rather new to this list, but i feel compelled to remark that it is
tiresome to me (and perhaps to others) to hear these long discussions
in which so much energy goes into establishing one's superiority over
american regional culture, or making specious identifications with parts
of the culture deemed to have value. There are fantasies of rebelliion
worked out in these impassioned critiques of American society,
consumerism, etc., but such easy targets as the mainstream or the
predelictions of the local folks hardly requires celebration when they are
hit.
Better, wouldn't it be, to see beyond or beneath the cultural bric-a-brac,
and to do so in a discourse that is beyond or beneath it as well. Perhaps
what is liberating about conversations in this medium is the lack of
geographic reference it has; let's enjoy it, not rush to find out where
everyone is from and whether or not they can feel proud of the town
they chose, or feel heroic in their cussing of a town that chose them.
Not all the world loves poetry; that doesn't make it any better, or anyone
braver.
Discussions of what we are reading seems innocent enough, but that
sounds like it would devolve into the same syndrome of self-enobling.
Are people not doing their work?
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 15:46:45 -0400
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From: Emily Lloyd <emilyl@EROLS.COM>
Subject: Re: Virgina Cure
At 10:42 AM 4/18/96 -0700, Aldon L. Nielsen wrote:
>Emily -- which VA suburb was that? I did 3 years in Arlington myself --
>slipped away from NY school trip to check out bookstores of Manhattan,
>which my other trip skippers found an odd preoccupation --
I'm in Fairfax, now...spent much of childhood in a Waynesboro trailer park,
tho. Bingoing & dancing in a square. :) em
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Emily Lloyd emilyl@erols.com
"It takes time to make queer people"--g. stein
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 15:59:34 EDT
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From: Ward Tietz <100723.3166@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Re: Help with Michel Butor
Bill Luoma,
This isn't nearly as poetic as Luigi Bob Drake's or Henry Gould's, but I think
this might be closer.
I would translate the lines you quoted as,"From snap to snap I weave my bends,
from creak to creak I scale my towers."
One problem translating this is that the adjectives don't quite match up going
from French to English. "Grincement" is usually a metal on metal, or tooth on
tooth grinding, scratching kind of sound. "Craquement" usually has the sense of
snap or crack, sometimes also with a sense of being crispy, but it also can
mean creak. In effect you could use "creak" for both "grincement" and
"craquement" if it weren't for the problem in repetition.
Ward Tietz
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 15:23:49 -0500
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From: Michael Leddy <cfml@EIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bad Poetry
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.960418144054.6830A-100000@shell.acmenet.net>
On Thu, 18 Apr 1996, Eryque Gleason wrote:
> Michael, was the anthology *supposed* to represent the bad lines in
> poetry, or was it a 'happy' accident?
Eryque,
Hello. Yes, it's a wonderful book, complete with Max Beerbohm
illustrations and a hilarious index. It used to be available in pbk (I
found my copy in a used bookstore), may still be, and would certainly be
in many libraries. (I wish I had it at hand to quote from--I'll bring it
in to "school" and send in some selections.)
MIchael Leddy / Charleston, IL
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 09:05:50 +1200
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Daniel Salmon <dpsalmon@IHUG.CO.NZ>
Subject: Re: like a bolt of fabric...
At 12:56 PM 18/04/96 EDT, you wrote:
>>>Yes, well. A newspaper here has been running a "Which is the worst line of
>>>poetry in the English language?" feature. Yesterday's nominations were:
>
>>>Any other contenders?
>___________________
>
Black is the colour of the masters hall
Where all the colours met; he is the head,
For mauve is tame, magenta badly bred,
Purple and brown to languid vapours fall,
...usw
o. n. gillespie (nz)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 16:18:45 MDT
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From: Louis Cabri <ldmcabri@ACS.UCALGARY.CA>
Subject: Re: Help with Michel Butor
In-Reply-To: <960418195933_100723.3166_EHU113-1@CompuServe.COM>; from "Ward
Tietz" at Apr 18, 96 3:59 pm
To me it's not evident from the lines that they are
about a tree, the trees, Tree.... However, thought of as a riddle when
you know the answer,
their give-away of their purported object is in the
metaphorical suggestion of an upwards direction in "escalade" and
"tour." Even that is inverted in the order of the lines (they're
in the second line). "Tisse" and "virages" can contrastively,
then, suggest a rhyzomic spreading out, 'winding my way' like
branches and leaves, or roots. The lines are everywhere bulked-up with
synonymic and connotative ambiguity. There's also a pun with "tour" as
it can also mean 'turn' (i.e. "virage"). The big diff between
"grincement" and "craquement" in their context to me is the
phonic associations of the consonants (g and k). Just noodling,
Louis
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 07:04:37 +0200
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From: "William M. Northcutt" <William.Northcutt@UNI-BAYREUTH.DE>
Subject: bad poetry
Bad poetry? I've always thought that anything by Milton is as bad as pint of
buttermilk left out in the desert during a day as hot as the sun which is as
round as a wet beachball rolling around in the sand, so that it's colour
changes to a yellow the colour of buttermilk left out in the desert during a
day as hot as Milton's hell.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 02:53:21 -0400
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From: Eryque Gleason <eryque@ACMENET.NET>
Subject: Re: bad poetry
In-Reply-To: <9604190504.AA04878@btr0x1.hrz.uni-bayreuth.de>
William, thanks for that litlte ditty :) Stanley Fish is talking here
soon, would you like me to share it with him?
Eryque the red
On Fri, 19 Apr 1996, William M. Northcutt wrote:
> Bad poetry? I've always thought that anything by Milton is as bad as pint of
> buttermilk left out in the desert during a day as hot as the sun which is as
> round as a wet beachball rolling around in the sand, so that it's colour
> changes to a yellow the colour of buttermilk left out in the desert during a
> day as hot as Milton's hell.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 16:40:06 JST
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: John Geraets <frank@DPC.AICHI-GAKUIN.AC.JP>
Subject: Re: Anthologies
Comments: cc: w.curnow@auckland.ac.nz
Wystan (& Listers),
You and others have clearly made a good job out of what's been a
pretty shoddy NZ poetry anthology project from the start.
Not exactly what kinds of response you seek, as if there's some universal
to reflect on the local in the production of anthologies, especially
national poetry ones? Decency, professionalism--of course, yes.
For me, the shambles you talk of brings back to me what I pretty
well knew and that is that the need for--possibility of--national
collectives, anthologies whatever which represent _the_ culture
are behind us, stillborns throughout. I say this as a Kiwi and a
literary person.
Stupidity in literary affairs is hardly a NZ phenomenon alone.
The underlying problem is the political economic one. The
recognitions, space provided, university course enrolments,
Oxford's profitability, a representations of a form of power. For
me it's dead politics.
The paper anthology is culturally and technologically an outmoded
form. Wystan's posting itself confirms this.
All of the poetry written in NZ or in some distinguishable kind of
way connected witht hat "geometry" could fit onto one of the CD ROMs
that I clip inot my pc and is about 1-2 mm thick and some centremetres
across. The rest is a failing economics and continuance of power.
Give the literary students CD ROM access, give them the lattitude
that I'm sure they can use, even canonization or other ratings
systems can be easily included I'm sure.
It's probably history doing this to the anthology as much as or more
than its three editors and unsuspecting contributors (not that
that should get them off the hook!)
Thargo, best,
John Geraets
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 16:41:53 JST
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: John Geraets <frank@DPC.AICHI-GAKUIN.AC.JP>
Subject: Re: Place
Comments: cc: beard@iconz.co.nz
Tom,
The only places you really miss are those places you're
outside of. Mucks up the scoring of where you are too.
Me, I miss where you are,
John
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 09:37:54 GMT0BST
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Peter Larkin <LYAAZ@LIBRIS.LIB.WARWICK.AC.UK>
Organization: UNIVERSITY OF WARWICK LIBRARY
Subject: Michel Butor
Rhyzomic spreading out, yes, but the above-surface tree might be
incorporated in a counter-image ("tree" is generally contrasted with
"rhyzome"). There can be a sense in the "de...en" construction of
linear descent, legacy or hierarchic election, as in "de pere en
fils". Does one grincement give birth to another,the repeated term
rendered non-identical by virtue of its organic descent. The
turning/arising pun in "tours" would then bend ascent into
descent.
Peter Larkin Philosophy & Literature Librarian
University of Warwick Library,Coventry CV4 7AL UK
Tel:01203 524475 Fax: 01203 524211
Email: Lyaaz@Libris.Lib.Warwick.ac.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 09:52:02 GMT0BST
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Peter Larkin <LYAAZ@LIBRIS.LIB.WARWICK.AC.UK>
Organization: UNIVERSITY OF WARWICK LIBRARY
Subject: Michel Butor
In the cause of over-interpretation I would offer this very free
translation:
From snap of snap my bends woven
Down squeal off squeal my turns risen
Peter
Peter Larkin Philosophy & Literature Librarian
University of Warwick Library,Coventry CV4 7AL UK
Tel:01203 524475 Fax: 01203 524211
Email: Lyaaz@Libris.Lib.Warwick.ac.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 08:02:10 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Henry Gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Butor blues version
Butor Blues
(Paul Butorfield version)
From <snap> to <snap> <snaps fingers into microphone>
I bend my ways, baby...
From squeal to squeal <5-min. harmonica break>
I tree my tour...
<30 min. Indian raga>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 08:30:01 -0500
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From: Karen or Peter Landers <landers@VIVANET.COM>
Subject: Re: Place
Hi all,
info about place and what we're reading...
Rochester is 70 miles east of Buffalo. There are plenty of poets here who
think of this community as separate from Buffalo. I've postponed my reading
of James Joyce because I want more a American language right now. I'm
reading Charles Olson, _The Maximus Poems_ again, can't seem to get enough
of this book. For me the shadow of Buffalo is welcome. Long live
Albright-Knox! Big hugs to all at EPC. :-)
When Joel Oppenheimer was visiting (about 10 years ago?) he put on a
reading, inviting local poets including _yours truly_ to read. What makes a
poetic local? I don't know. _The Maximus Poems_ are chiefly set in
Gloucester. I have no such writing about Rochester... As I look at this
copy center of the world, I don't see anything particularly worth writing
about it. I know some "postmodernists" wo want to immortalize their
hometowns, to me that's just another copy. And to say that _The Maximus
Poems_ are "local" is a joke. Gloucester is the point where Maximus stands,
but his view is outward (mostly).
Peter Landers
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 08:07:30 -0500
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: 60's hangovers/place
jeffrey, for example: i really think the changes that have taken place in
south africa over the past decade are, well, kinda earthshaking (and i'm
not reading it all 'one way')... yet my sense is that there seems to be
little active awareness in many of our public fora here in the u.s. that
what's going on there really *should* be something we're paying attention
to closely, something to get excited about i mean... in fact, just 'paying
attention to' would be just fine---in the same way that 'we' paid attention
to many of the more notable events of the sixties... i mean not only
teachers, but students... and since i teach, i can attest to most of my
students' lack of interest in such stuff in general---and most important is
that IT'S NOT THEIR FAULT...
what's needed methinks is not some 'return' to the past, to 'basics,' to
the sixties, or to compulsory heterosexuality... i often wonder whether,
with the advent of cnn and such, citizens in this country (we are citizens,
aren't we?) aren't simply inured to significant news... yknow, the moment
passes, and---?... but in fact i rather think it's more the case that we've
(in this country now, and wrt popular opinion) given up on significance as
such... and i believe there are systemic reasons for this, this suits
certain powers-that-be & wanna-be...
another significant event, one that more americans should be more aware of,
and more up-in-arms over, is the savings & loan scandal from the 80s... but
again, there's such complacency and cynicism out there that whatever
resistance is being mounted to such shenanigans goes unnoticed---and there
are certainly many, many folks in the u.s. working hard to counter such
injustices, for all anybody knows and in sheer numbers, as much of a
'counterculture' in this sense as there was during the sixties... albeit a
counterculture in such terms perhaps must exhibit more solidarity, and be
something of a media event if it's to go noticed as such (abbie hoffman was
good at this)... and like, you need a politically-motivated culture to have
a counterculture (ok, so i'm trying to be hip here)...
i'm pointing my fingers in many directions, yes, b/c the problems are in my
view very much a matter of various institutional incorporations... and i'd
say that this has to be understood in terms of local-global
contingencies...
i hope i'm making some bit of sense here... history is unfolding right
before our very eyes, not back there someplace...
best,
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 21:14:35 +0800
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Schuchat <schuchat@ARC.ARC.ORG.TW>
Subject: Re: bad poetry
In-Reply-To: <9604190504.AA04878@btr0x1.hrz.uni-bayreuth.de>
I don't want to restart a now dormant thread and would not call the
author of this line a bad poet but I have always for some reason found
I dug the ell-square pitkin
hysterically funny, and since it is not meant as such, it would meet
certain definitions of bad poetry (though its embedded in a nice piece of
writing, Canto I)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 08:37:13 -0500
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Leddy <cfml@EIU.EDU>
Subject: Bad Poetry
In-Reply-To: <199604191307.IAA07984@charlie.acc.iit.edu>
A fly that up and down himself doth shove.
Wordsworth, "To Sleep"
Dust to dust, and ashes to ashes,
Into the tomb the Great Queen dashes.
Unidentified poet on the death of Queen Victoria
from The Stuffed Owl
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 10:00:15 -0400
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Pierre Joris <joris@CSC.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Heidegger & Celan essays
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960419082706.29205A-100000@ux1>
The following two essays are now available on my author's page at the
EPC-Buffalo:
* Heidegger, France, Politics, The University
* Celan/Heidegger: Translation at the Mountain of Death
Three weeks ago, after a discussion of Pound, Heidegger, fascism, etc., I
had mentioned these essays & there ensued many backchannel requests
asking for copies. The essays were too long to be posted easily on the
list, so I thought it best to stick them in the author's page. Apologies
to all those backchannelers for not answering every request, & apologies
for the slowness of this process, but things are somewhat hectic around
here these days. & many thanks to Loss for his indefatigable devotion. I
hope some of you may still be interested in the pieces, &, obviously, any
commentaries are welcome, front- or back-channel.
Pierre
=======================================================================
Pierre Joris | "Form fascinates when one no longer has the force
Dept. of English | to understand force from within itself. That
SUNY Albany | is, to create." -- Jacques Derrida
Albany NY 12222 |
tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | "Poetry is the promise of a language."
email: | -- Friedrich Holderlin
joris@cnsunix.albany.edu|
=======================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 12:43:47 EDT
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From: Ken Edwards <100344.2546@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: like a bolt of fabric...
"Ken: Where is "here?"
daniel_bouchard@hmco.com"
Sorry, Daniel. Here is London. England, that is. Not Minnesota, anyway.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 13:32:22 -0400
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Loss Glazier <lolpoet@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Live from the Duncan Conference
In full swing right now under the fairest weather anyone has seen around
here in many months, the Duncan conference. A gathering that is great in
spirit, good talk, people from all over, with Creeley's kind presence as
MC.. So far (quickly) some highlights include a performance of Adam's Way
(directed by Nick Lawrence) and Marjorie Perloff and Nat Mackey's
papers--plus the knockout reading last night by Susan Howe and Nate Mackey.
Some good discussion on the relation between poetry and politics and on
Duncan's correspondence and eventual criticism of and break with Levertov.
Close readings and immensely rich discussion. It's not a huge gathering but
the spirit of folks is really great to behold. Books for sale, too, show the
range of readings here available. Talking Leaves present and there are also
two wonderful special editions of Duncan prepared by Joel Kuszai (Meow
Press) and Charles Alexander. Well, this is just a brief report while on
lunch break. The next panel--Blaser, Howe, McGann -!- then tonight a reading
by Blaser and Michele Leggott... It certain respects it's *the possibilities
of reading* that Duncan suggests that no climate can surpress. A terrific
gathering! All in all this will be a short conference (tomorrow's the last
day) but it has begun with a momentum and clarity of composition that is
burning as brightly as this clear, piercing, I-caught-you-by-surprise spate
of Lake Erie spring.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 13:57:52 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Henry Gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Joris/Celan essay
Pierre Joris,
was hoping to backchannel but can't find your address. Enjoyed your essay
on Celan/Heidegger. Possibly another context for the "star in the well"
image is Mandelstam's poem "Washing up in the courtyard", with the image
of the star in the barrel. This poem appears to present a kind of
turning pt for M. toward a more bleak/tragic comprehension of his personal
fate in the face of persecution. The emphasis on wood/logs/hut is relevant
to several M poems in which he links Tsarist & soviet oppression to
to Russian folktales - there is the key late poem (about Stalin?) about
the giant in his cave in the mountain. Your mention of the connection
between "orchis" and "mandel-" might relate to this too, as is the
"man whose name was written in the book" before him (the book of heaven
as in Apocalypse?). Could the "man who leads" and the "one who listens"
refer to Heidegger & Mandelstam respectively? & the "omega" - orchis &
orchis - as in Osip & Osip (M. confronting his evil double Stalin
vis-a-vis Celan/Heidegger on a different level). For listeners-in
who might find all this far-fetched, Celan translated Mandelstam
& seems to have felt a deep kinship.
These are just shots in the dark. Yr command of the etymologies is
impressive. Have you read the Felstiner book - he deals with this
poem also. - Henry Gould
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 14:12:51 EDT
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Daniel Bouchard <Daniel_Bouchard@HMCO.COM>
Subject: Re: Live from the Duncan Conference
"If I had my way
I'd shuffle off to Buff-a-lo. . . "
- John Fogerty
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 13:41:15 CST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Baratier <dave.baratier@MOSBY.COM>
Subject: contrasimilitudinal
Steve
Derrida's assertion of being interested in "crossing the boudaries"
hits me as a catch-phrase, along the lines of say: multiculturalism.
While Derrida himself is interested in possibilities of language
investigation, by polarizing his investigation to address either
binary of two chosen categories we are given a fraction of the
elements involved. Why else would he valorize "crossing the
boundaries"?
The following paragraph, which I wrote earlier:
The investigation of language does not have a designated power, one
where each exponent degree is voiced purely by philosophy and/or
poetry. A degree isn't necessary, in language-polarity for example,
> the suffix "-gate" has a negative connotation due to media uses and
> then the public can talk about this newly minted word. After a few
years of using this suffix to the point of saturation, a poll
company, such as Gannet, determines that the public has grown tired
of this suffix, that white-gate has extrapolated meaning beyond the
economic life-span curve of product unit-value. So "-gate"is
statistically quantifyable and investigated in terms of
mathematical lingo. This is just one example alternate conduits for
language investigation. One consolation: I have heard that recently
Gannet has been able to hire philosophers for this process in areas
where the economy has disappeared such as Albany and Youngstown.
This was meant to be one facet of the ignored areas of investigation.
This is not a defense or an attack of the critic/poet (and your
inclusion of pollster) or any other constituent parties: its called an
allegory.
The value of "the language of critics" deals with trying to gain
acceptance of certain writers as cannoical who would not be admitted
otherwise, without the language of power. As a perfect example, I
offer Patchen's exclusion from the beats because he was the progenitor
of the movement, that his recordings in the 30's of poetry over jazz
(Mingus) would have made the beats old hat, moldy news during their
discovery and exposure in the fifties. The beats are a marketing
strategy created by Time magazine. Try to publish a book on a
university press on that subject without using critical methodology
and see how seriously its taken in academia. Or a book on Patchen at
all.
Be Well.
David Baratier
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 15:05:20 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: henry gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: contrasimilitudinal
In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 19 Apr 1996 13:41:15 CST from
<dave.baratier@MOSBY.COM>
On Fri, 19 Apr 1996 13:41:15 CST David Baratier said:
> The value of "the language of critics" deals with trying to gain
> acceptance of certain writers as cannoical who would not be admitted
> otherwise, without the language of power. As a perfect example, I
> offer Patchen's exclusion from the beats because he was the progenitor
> of the movement, that his recordings in the 30's of poetry over jazz
> (Mingus) would have made the beats old hat, moldy news during their
> discovery and exposure in the fifties. The beats are a marketing
> strategy created by Time magazine. Try to publish a book on a
> university press on that subject without using critical methodology
> and see how seriously its taken in academia. Or a book on Patchen at
> all.
Second the motion. & Vachel Lindsay in some ways makes Patchen look like
a sleepy dreamboy, even though (sadly) he didn't like jazz.
- Henry Gould
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 19:54:00 PDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Dodie Bellamy <traffic@NCGATE.NEWCOLLEGE.EDU>
Subject: Norma Cole/Rodrigo Toscano Tonight!
Yes, Small Press Traffic now has e-mail!
Small Press Traffic and the Poetics Department of New College
present O Books authors
Norma Cole and Rodrigo Toscano
TONIGHT
Friday, April 19, 7:30 p.m
at the New College Theater
777 Valencia Street, SF, $5.00
San Francisco's own Norma Cole is the author of two new books, Moira (O
Books) and Contrafact (Potes and Poets).
Rodrigo Toscano had two new books coming out: The Disparities (Sun & Moon/O
Books) and Arbiter. He lives in San Diego.
"Blessed are the forgetful" we did
love that place. speculate. what other
work could mirrors be doing? I remind you
of our childhood together. and of
the pick-axe of examination. you don't
want that to be
stranger. tell you
the waiting.
-from Norma Cole's "Rosetta"
More causality from the Persian Gulf.
Become that. And with the camcorder-saw?
Elsewhere (through this port-town) S-sifted what?
Refocus it: whose year, clock? Then frames come-
Some signs forged there? No. But with raw urge, knew
In filming dusk's clouds (feel universal)
Xtra premium or just regular.
-from Rodrigo Toscano's "Circular No. 6"
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 17:03:16 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Daniel Bouchard <Daniel_Bouchard@HMCO.COM>
Subject: poetry and audience in the nation
from THE NATION (April 29, 1996)
"How do the new performance poets stack up against American poets of earlier
generations? Some say spoken poetry is all well and good, but it doesn't work
on the page. Nor, they say, will it stand the test of time. Forty years ago
that argument was made about Beat poetry. But "Howl" has lasted. Homer was an
out-loud poet; Shakespeare wrote his best verse for the stage. Closer to home,
there's Walt Whitman, who wrote an out-loud, shout-it-from-the-rooftops poetry
if there ever was one.
"Of course, the new poets aren't on that level. Many are relatively young and
they're just finding their audience. They are, however, the first postwar
American generation of poets to reach successfully past a relatively small
circle. How that experience will change their poetry and how their poetry will
change us remains to be seen- and heard.
- Mona Molarsky
_______
For all the useful political and social commentary that I get from THE NATION,
I think that it may do just as much damage to the arts as TIME and NEWSPEAK.
Still, Mona Molarsky claims to have been on the poetry scene in America for 25
years. I can't rebut her findings about poetry and audience firsthand but I
know some of you can. And since some posts have dealt with the 60s recently
anyway, and Poetry and Audience was a good topic at the recent NYC Poetry
Chats, I want to ask those of you who know some history about this to enlighten
and share with us younger folks.
I've heard that protests against the American invasion of Viet Nam had a lot to
do with large audiences in the late 60s/ early 70s. What else? How have
American poetry audiences- audiences at actual readings- changed or evolved
over the past few decades?
Don't make me take Mona's word for it. I like to accumulate a wide range of
opinions to doubt.
daniel_bouchard@hmco.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 22:17:34 MDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Louis Cabri <ldmcabri@ACS.UCALGARY.CA>
Subject: Re: Michel Butor
In-Reply-To: <35C7AD769F1@libris.lib.warwick.ac.uk>; from "Peter Larkin" at
Apr 19, 96 9:37 am
rhyzomic reading out of town? yes burping bovines under trees
might be a counter-image, Eritrea's dry scapes contrasted with
rye fields, but "here" can have a pheasant-like den construction,
linear pee-hole in the corner, a descending legacy for cubist
hierophants - as in "deeper filtration, please, every grincement
births its repeated term non-identical to virtue." Organically
scented part-whole relationships in the language of puns tours
the would-then bends in ascent: University of Warwick, we are
Yvor Winters: I am a tree, please pee on me.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 23:28:17 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Patchen & Mingus
In-Reply-To: <199604200405.AAA07649@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
What's this about Patchen & Mingus in the 30s? Ref. please . . .I know
Mingus was playing professionally by age 16, but I missed this one --
tell me more --
by the way -- I HAVE heard recording of V. Lindsay, and I don't really
see him as that much more impressive than Kerouac et al -- Next we'll be
hearing that Edwin Markham was the real pioneer in performance poetry
(did ya know his "Man with the hoe" was the inspiration for RAP?)
I'd be willing to bet Patchen & jazz better listening than Rexroth & the
Cellar crew --
"Who killed poetry & jazz? You did, you in your seersucker shades"
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 02:34:39 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: JOEL LEWIS <104047.2175@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Re: poetry and audience in the nation
I first found an article about the bright new worlds of poetry in NATION a bit
odd, given that NATION publishes such boring poetry.
The Vietnam era really created an explosion of poets all over--coming of age in
a local poetry scene in North Jersey in the late 70's, there were hundreds
coming to local readings. I think that Nation piece decided that the creaking
mainstream of the 70's and 8o's was, for all intent, POETRY for that era.There
was so much going on in the left-of-center poetries & still is. Joel Lewis
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 09:15:57 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM>
Subject: Re: poetry and audience in the nation
In-Reply-To: <960420063439_104047.2175_JHR64-2@CompuServe.COM>
I thought of something along these lines about a month ago when the Nation
ran a
good interview/ article about composer/instrumentalist Marty Ehrlich,
followed
by an,
as usual, insipid poem by someone I can't remember. What made this
particularly
ironic & painfully stupid, was that they could instead have made an
inspired editorial move by including a poem by Ehrlich's wife, Erica Hunt.
But
then Santoro, the "non-classical" music critic for the Nation, is
simply generally more progressive than the mag's literary views.
Oh, well.
(Sorry about the lineation of this. I'm telnetting in from Boston's
cybercafe Designs for Living & I have to use (shudder) PINE
as my
e-mail program in eskimo's (double shudder) Unix shell. Now I
understand why, for example Chris Strofllino's messags look the way they
do.))
Bests
Herb
On Sat, 20 Apr 1996, JOEL LEWIS wrote:
> I first found an article about the bright new worlds of poetry in NATION a bit
> odd, given that NATION publishes such boring poetry.
>
> The Vietnam era really created an explosion of poets all over--coming of age in
> a local poetry scene in North Jersey in the late 70's, there were hundreds
> coming to local readings. I think that Nation piece decided that the creaking
> mainstream of the 70's and 8o's was, for all intent, POETRY for that era.There
> was so much going on in the left-of-center poetries & still is. Joel Lewis
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 12:49:35 MDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Louis Cabri <ldmcabri@ACS.UCALGARY.CA>
Subject: benson, coolidge & inman
In-Reply-To: <199604180431.AAA07016@orichalc.acsu.buffalo.edu>; from "William
R Howe" at Apr 18, 96 12:31 am
is that a tobacco brand, or does anyone know if tapes are
available of readings of theirs (at one point i think this issue
came up for steve benson, long time back, so i'll check the
archives too)? - louis
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 23:12:56 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Dan Raphael Dlugonski <raphael@ARACNET.COM>
Subject: Reading in Portland
>Wanting to let any Portland area folks know of upcoming multi-media poetry
performance Fri. 4/26 with Spencer Selby (from SF) and locals Bob Phillips
and dan raphael. 7:30 at Mountain Writer's Center, 3624 se milwaukie.
There are 5 messages totalling 107 lines in this issue.
>
>Topics of the day:
>
> 1. Michel Butor
> 2. Patchen & Mingus
> 3. poetry and audience in the nation (2)
> 4. benson, coolidge & inman
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 22:17:34 MDT
>From: Louis Cabri <ldmcabri@ACS.UCALGARY.CA>
>Subject: Re: Michel Butor
>
>rhyzomic reading out of town? yes burping bovines under trees
>might be a counter-image, Eritrea's dry scapes contrasted with
>rye fields, but "here" can have a pheasant-like den construction,
>linear pee-hole in the corner, a descending legacy for cubist
>hierophants - as in "deeper filtration, please, every grincement
>births its repeated term non-identical to virtue." Organically
>scented part-whole relationships in the language of puns tours
>the would-then bends in ascent: University of Warwick, we are
>Yvor Winters: I am a tree, please pee on me.
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 23:28:17 -0700
>From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>
>Subject: Re: Patchen & Mingus
>
>What's this about Patchen & Mingus in the 30s? Ref. please . . .I know
>Mingus was playing professionally by age 16, but I missed this one --
>tell me more --
>
>by the way -- I HAVE heard recording of V. Lindsay, and I don't really
>see him as that much more impressive than Kerouac et al -- Next we'll be
>hearing that Edwin Markham was the real pioneer in performance poetry
>
>(did ya know his "Man with the hoe" was the inspiration for RAP?)
>
>I'd be willing to bet Patchen & jazz better listening than Rexroth & the
>Cellar crew --
>
>"Who killed poetry & jazz? You did, you in your seersucker shades"
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 02:34:39 EDT
>From: JOEL LEWIS <104047.2175@COMPUSERVE.COM>
>Subject: Re: poetry and audience in the nation
>
>I first found an article about the bright new worlds of poetry in NATION a bit
>odd, given that NATION publishes such boring poetry.
>
>The Vietnam era really created an explosion of poets all over--coming of age in
>a local poetry scene in North Jersey in the late 70's, there were hundreds
>coming to local readings. I think that Nation piece decided that the creaking
>mainstream of the 70's and 8o's was, for all intent, POETRY for that era.There
>was so much going on in the left-of-center poetries & still is. Joel Lewis
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 09:15:57 -0700
>From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM>
>Subject: Re: poetry and audience in the nation
>
>I thought of something along these lines about a month ago when the Nation
>ran a
>good interview/ article about composer/instrumentalist Marty Ehrlich,
>followed
> by an,
>as usual, insipid poem by someone I can't remember. What made this
>particularly
>ironic & painfully stupid, was that they could instead have made an
>inspired editorial move by including a poem by Ehrlich's wife, Erica Hunt.
>But
>then Santoro, the "non-classical" music critic for the Nation, is
>simply generally more progressive than the mag's literary views.
>
>Oh, well.
>
>(Sorry about the lineation of this. I'm telnetting in from Boston's
>cybercafe Designs for Living & I have to use (shudder) PINE
>as my
>e-mail program in eskimo's (double shudder) Unix shell. Now I
>understand why, for example Chris Strofllino's messags look the way they
>do.))
>
>Bests
>
>Herb
>
>On Sat, 20 Apr 1996, JOEL LEWIS wrote:
>
>> I first found an article about the bright new worlds of poetry in NATION
a bit
>> odd, given that NATION publishes such boring poetry.
>>
>> The Vietnam era really created an explosion of poets all over--coming of
age in
>> a local poetry scene in North Jersey in the late 70's, there were hundreds
>> coming to local readings. I think that Nation piece decided that the creaking
>> mainstream of the 70's and 8o's was, for all intent, POETRY for that
era.There
>> was so much going on in the left-of-center poetries & still is. Joel Lewis
>>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 12:49:35 MDT
>From: Louis Cabri <ldmcabri@ACS.UCALGARY.CA>
>Subject: benson, coolidge & inman
>
>is that a tobacco brand, or does anyone know if tapes are
>available of readings of theirs (at one point i think this issue
>came up for steve benson, long time back, so i'll check the
>archives too)? - louis
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of POETICS Digest - 19 Apr 1996 to 20 Apr 1996
>**************************************************
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 11:54:28 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Larry Price <Lppl@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: benson, coolidge & inman
Louis:
Readings of Benson and Coolidge were recorded by the Poetry Center at SFSU
and are in the Archives there. You can contact Laura Moriarty for those
details. Laura's e-mail:
moriarty@MERCURY.SFSU.EDU
There was a monolithic eight-night Coolidge reading at the old 80 Langton
Street site. All eight nights were recorded, and again are available through
the Archives in some fashion or other, though I'm not sure about the
arrangements for that one, since it was a Langton event and not a Poetry
Center event. There was a great Coolidge reading video- and audiotaped by the
Archives (in 1977 if I remember correctly), a reading with Philip Whalen. I
recommend that one above all.
Further thoughts would be: contact Steve directly for audiotapes of many of
his performances. The best I remember seeing was at the old Intersection
space in North Beach, circa 1986, an incredible tour de force, completely
improvised but with line breaks intact. I'm fairly sure that Steve himself
recorded that.
Finally, for Peter: I know the Poetry Center Archives contain at least one
reading, but I suspect Charles Bernstein has several, recorded at the Ear
Inn. Hope this helps.
lp
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 12:29:35 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: JOEL LEWIS <104047.2175@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Re: benson, coolidge & inman
to add to larry's suggestions:
contact poetry ptoject at St.Mark's (212)674-0910, Ed Friedman. They have many
redording of Coolidge and Benson. Don't remember p. inman at project, tho' i'm
sure he read. Do remember an amazing reading of S. Benson in 1980 or 81 reading
"the busses". There is also a tape of Coolidge doing poloroid from S-Press (??)
in Germany and Coolidge didi record for the lamont at Harvard. Good luck..joel
Lewis
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 12:57:56 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Matthew Gary Kirschenbaum <mgk3k@FARADAY.CLAS.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Live from the Duncan Conference
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4b12.32.19960419173222.00687c30@pop.acsu.buffalo.edu> from
"Loss Glazier" at Apr 19, 96 01:32:22 pm
Loss,
When time permits, I'd love to hear an updated update. --Matt
>
> In full swing right now under the fairest weather anyone has seen around
> here in many months, the Duncan conference. A gathering that is great in
> spirit, good talk, people from all over, with Creeley's kind presence as
> MC.. So far (quickly) some highlights include a performance of Adam's Way
> (directed by Nick Lawrence) and Marjorie Perloff and Nat Mackey's
> papers--plus the knockout reading last night by Susan Howe and Nate Mackey.
> Some good discussion on the relation between poetry and politics and on
> Duncan's correspondence and eventual criticism of and break with Levertov.
> Close readings and immensely rich discussion. It's not a huge gathering but
> the spirit of folks is really great to behold. Books for sale, too, show the
> range of readings here available. Talking Leaves present and there are also
> two wonderful special editions of Duncan prepared by Joel Kuszai (Meow
> Press) and Charles Alexander. Well, this is just a brief report while on
> lunch break. The next panel--Blaser, Howe, McGann -!- then tonight a reading
> by Blaser and Michele Leggott... It certain respects it's *the possibilities
> of reading* that Duncan suggests that no climate can surpress. A terrific
> gathering! All in all this will be a short conference (tomorrow's the last
> day) but it has begun with a momentum and clarity of composition that is
> burning as brightly as this clear, piercing, I-caught-you-by-surprise spate
> of Lake Erie spring.
>
=================================================================
Matthew G. Kirschenbaum University of Virginia
mgk3k@virginia.edu Department of English
http://faraday.clas.virginia.edu/~mgk3k Electronic Text Center
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 16:47:15 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: poetry and audience in the nation
Herb Levy--
although my poetry pretty much stays GLUED to the LEFT(ist) margin
in a way that is (ironically?) considered RIGHTest,
how do you know that many of my notes on the poetics list---
(someone--i forget who--once remarked on their "ziggeraut" quality)--
are not intentional in the spirit of WCW's "three step" late style...
?
chris
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 13:36:54 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: klobucar <klobucar@UNIXG.UBC.CA>
Subject: LIVE INTERNET READING EVENT
***********************************
* The Kootenay School of Writing *
* Vancouver B.C., Canada *
* EVENTS FOR APRIL 1996 *
* *
* email: ksw@wimsey.com *
* www: http://www.wimsey.com/~ksw *
* 112 West Hastings *
* Vancouver B.C. V6B 2G8 *
* (604) 688 6001 *
***********************************
Internet Reading Series
***********************************
Deanna Ferguson, Michael Turner, Dorothy Trujillo Lusk, and
Jeff Derksen
April 26th : Friday : 4 -5:30 pm (PST)
------------------------------------------------------
Physical Location: Vancouver Film School, 420 Homer St., Vancouver B.C.
WWW Location: http://www.wimsey.com/~ksw/internet.htm
------------------------------------------------------
The Kootenay School of Writing, in conjunction
with the Vancouver Film School and Axion Internet is pleased to
announce our first broadcast of a reading over the Internet using
RealAudio(TM) technology.
On APRIL 26th at 4:00 pm Pacific Standard Time we will be broadcasting
a pre-recorded reading by Vancouver writers Deanna Ferguson and Michael
Turner (info on that event) and a live reading by Vancouver writers
Dorothy Trujillo Lusk and Jeff Derksen. Real Audio capability graciously
supplied by Axion Internet.
REQUIREMENTS:
o 486 class or higher PC / 68000 class Mac / Unix based machines,
with capability to play sound files.
o NETSCAPE 1.1+ (The event will be optimized for Netscape 2.0)
o a Real Audio Player for your computer.
WHERE CAN I FIND THESE ?:
o Computers : at your local computer store...
o Netscape 1.1+ can be found at the Netscape
http://home.netscape.com
o Real Audio Player can be found at the Real Audio site at
http://www.realaudio.com/products/player.html
DOROTHY TRUJILLO LUSK has given readings across Canada and NYC. Her most
recent book _Redactive_ was published by Talonbooks in 1990. Her Tsunami
Editions chapbook _Oral Tragedy_ was Shortlisted in the bpNichol Memorial
Chapbook contest in 1989. Her latest work, _Volume Delays_ is forthcoming
from Sprang Texts.
JEFF DERKSEN, founding member of the Kootenay School of Writing and past
editor of _Writing_ magazine, now lives in Calgary where he is completing
his doctoral studies at the University of Calgary. Derksen's first book,
_Down Time_ won the Dorothy Livesay Poetry Award at the 1991 B.C. Book
Prizes. His second book _Dwell_ was published by Talonbooks in 1993.
DEANNA FERGUSON lives in Vancouver, B.C. where she is a publisher of
Tsunami Editions and a co-editor of BOO Magazine. Books include The
Relative Minor, (Tsunami Editions, 1993), Link Fantasy, with Stan
Douglas, 1988 and Will Tear Us, 1987. Recent work appears in The
Gertrude Stein Awards in Innovative Amercian Poetry, (Sun & Moon Press)
and Raddle Moon 14.
MICHAEL TURNER is the author of Kingsway (Arsenal Pulp Press), Company
Town (Arsenal) and Hard Core Logo (Arsenal). Company Town was
shortlisted for the Dorothy Livesay Poetry Prize. His second book, Hard
Core Logo, has been adapted to radio and stage, and will be a feature
film directed by Bruce McDonald (Highway 61, Dance Me Outside). He is
also the founder of the Reading Railroad, a popular Vancouver reading
series.
*******************************************************
FOR MORE INFORMATION CONTACT:
ANDREW KLOBUCAR -- klobucar@unixg.ubc.ca
DAVE AYRE -- David_Ayre@mindlink.bc.ca
*******************************************************
RESOURCES:
Arsenal Pulp Press publishing/order information:
ARSENAL PULP PRESS
Tel: (604) 687-4233 Fax: (604) 669-8250
#100-1062 Homer Street,
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada, V6B 2W9
____________________________________
Talonbooks publication/order information WWW site:
http://www.swifty.com/talon
OR
TALON BOOKS
201 - 1019 East Cordova Street
Vancouver B.C. CANADA V6A 1M8
Telephone: (604) 253-5261; FAX: (604) 255-5755
Trade and Individual ordering information.
_____________________________________
Tsunami Editions publication/order information WWW site:
http://www.wimsey.com/~ksw/pnet/presses/tsunami/tsunami.htm
OR
TSUNAMI EDITIONS
(Distributed by New Star Books : newstar@pinc.com)
P.O. Box 3723, MPO
Vancouver B.C.
V6B 3Z1
Voice / Fax (604) 885-9117
--------------------------------------
TRADE ORDERS
Canada
General Distribution Services
30 Lesmill Road
Don Mills, ON
M3B 2T6M
Tel: (416) 445-3333
Ont/Que Toll Free: 1-800-387-0141
Canada Toll Free: 1-800-387-0172
Fax: (416) 445-5967
CTA S1150391
(B.C. accounts may order from Arsenal Pulp office; billing by General)
United States:
InBook
P.O. Box 120261
East Haven, CT
06512 USA
Tel. Toll Free 1-800-243-0138
Fax Toll Free 1-800-334-3892
Europe:
Gazelle Book Services
Falcon House
Queen Square
Lancaster LA1 1RN
England
Tel: (0) 524-68765
Fax: (0) 524-63232
____________________________________
The Kootenay School of Writing is a
non-profit artist run center operated collectively
by working writers. For 11 years KSW has offered
the varied literary communities of B.C. readings,
workshops, and talks that challenge and motivate
critical enquiry into the ways, means and dreams
of language.
Visit Our Web site ! ------> http://www.wimsey.com/~ksw
Join our Email mailing list ! --> http://www.wimsey.com/~ksw/maillist.htm
The Kootenay School of Writing
ksw@wimsey.com
(604) 688 6001
112 WEST HASTINGS
v6b 2g8
Canada
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 09:40:51 +1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Daniel Salmon <dpsalmon@IHUG.CO.NZ>
- hello all,
am very interested in recording, portraying, representing poetry on
video/film & wd be interested in discussions/examples of this - as it is not
directly related to poetics ^ POETICS perhaps this could be discussed
directly dpsalmon@ihug.co.nz rather than through the list
would appreciate any response,
dan nz
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 10:29:46 GMT+1300
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Wystan Curnow <w.curnow@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland
Subject: Re: benson, coolidge & inman
Comments: To: ldmcabri@ACS.UCALGARY.CA
Dear Louis,
I believe the Poetry Archive at UCSD has a tape of Coolidge
reading from MINE.
Can you or anyone give me an address for Coolidge, phone/fax
etc.? I'd be grateful.
Wystan
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 18:31:02 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Mustafa Ziyalan <ziyalan@IS2.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Turkish poetry on WWW
Dear Friends,
I have been thinking about writing this message
since I read the announcement
regarding the new issue of Talisman
featuring Turkish poetry in translation.
If you are interested in reading Turkish poetry,
there are at least two sites you can take a look at:
Turkish Poetry Homepage
at
http://www.cs.umd.edu/users/sibel/poetry/poetry.html
and
Marmara
at
http://maxwell.njit.edu/merhaba/marmara/
---------------
Mustafa Ziyalan
ziyalan@is2.nyu.edu
http://maxwell.njit.edu/merhaba/dir/mziyalan/
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 21:27:27 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Bob Holman <Nuyopoman@AOL.COM>
Subject: USOP
Emily, thanks for feedback on USOP.
The Raisinette woman is Lois-Ann Yamanaka, mentioned here recently in the
pidgin discussion. The bilingual piece is by Javier Pina, written whenhe
studied pioetry at El Centro de la Raza in Seattle. He's 18 now and works as
a janitor.the treatment was by Mark pellington (director) and Steve Kimmel
(art director).
As for lesbian poets, Michelle Clinton's piece show 5 (The Word) is
amorphously sexual and was moved from 4 (Love) because of the duet-with-self
form the piece took. Adrienne Rich worked with us a long time, but it finally
didn't work out -- tried desperately to get Eileen Myles "Kennedy" poem in,
but it was too long and unexcerptable. We've got plans (?) for continuing
USOP and I'd be interested in some lesbos-love poems - send my way!
Thanks.
Bob Holman
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 09:58:03 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Mark Wallace <mdw@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU>
Subject: thoreau, civil disobedience
Jeffrey Timmons:
Yes, it's clear that certain U.S. groups are now misuing the
notion of civil disobedience. After all, civil disobedience does has to
be based on your sense that you're being disobedient in the name of a
higher cause. Somehow, eliminating slavery seems to me such a higher
cause, wehereas Christian Freemen who think that jews stole the name of
"chosen people" from right-thinking American christians, and that blacks
are subhuman, hardly constitutes a higher cause. Furthermore, as you
point out, there is a big distinction between Thoreau's pacifism and the
current extremist violence.
I still think civil disobedience is a necessary and valuable way
of approaching all sorts of issues. It's the groups in question that need
to be condemned (as you recognize), not the notion of civil disobedience
which they're misuing and do not understand.
mark wallace
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 10:19:20 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: can't play (skinny arms)
Jaspers--
Is it true that most people thought Ornette Coleman
just didn't know how to play?
--Jorbum
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 10:45:09 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Oppen's magazine publishings etc.
Hi All,
Can anyone help me with the following?
Did any of George Oppen's poems from his volume The Materials get published
prior to the book?
If so, where and when?
When did GO start back at poetry again, specifically?
Also:
first strGO and William Bronk firt
first start correspondeing (i'm pretty sure it was prior to 1962 which is
the date of the first GO letter to WV Bri [to William Bronk; (forgive my
primitive email engine i'm having to use d today)] in the GO Selexted Letters?
How did GO and WB get brought together?
I'm trying to u
I'm trying to pull my papers
I'm trying to pull my paper together for Orono on the two poets at the close
of the fiti [fifties], and d so any heo help would be greatly appreciated
(if you'll be at Orono I'd be glad to buy you a drink or coffee or
whatever, etc.).
Again, thanks (especially for being so patiaent with this garbled message),
Burt Kimmelman
kimmelman@admin.njit.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 10:55:17 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Daniel Bouchard <Daniel_Bouchard@HMCO.COM>
Subject: Re: Oppen's magazine publishings etc.
>> When did GO start back at poetry again, specifically?
I was just reading this again last night. I remember a footnote to a letter
from 1963 pinpointing the year that Oppen began writing poetry again as 1956.
Actually, he may have stated this outright in a letter: that THE MATERIALS was
written between 1956 and 1962. I don't have the Selected Letters with me right
now.
Rachel?
daniel_bouchard@hmco.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 12:20:54 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Oppen's magazine publishings etc.
Rachel, are you out there? Can you help me with Daniel's comments on
OPpen's The materials etc.?
Burt
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 10:36:07 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: Ron Silliman Live in San Francisco!
Small Press Traffic and Idiom present
Ron Silliman and Lytle Shaw
Tuesday, April 30, 7:30 p.m.
at Four Walls Gallery, 3160A 16th Street @ Albion
$3.00
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 10:38:54 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: Erica Hunt/Camille Roy in San Francisco
Small Press Traffic and the Poetics Department of New College
present Kelsey St. Press authors
Erica Hunt and Camille Roy
Friday, April 26, 7:30 p.m
at the New College Theater
777 Valencia Street, SF, $5.00
Erica Hunt, who is flying in from New York, has written Local History (Roof
Books) and Arcade, from Kelsey St. Press. Camille Roy is the author of
Cold Heaven (O Books) and The Rosy Medallions (Kelsey St. Press). She
lives in San Francisco.
Someone invented Rene to stand for the perfect man at point zero as an
incentive to abbreviate wreckage. "His props are all in a box, wigs, hats,
coats," translated for the silent movies. He is on the periphery waving a
stick and appears to be very threatening. The subtitles distract us from
the compassed affinity of a willed and accidental world.
-from Erica Hunt's "Surplus/Reason"
FEAR. I don't know whether to stick to my sound or move into breath, the
old in & out.
TECHNIQUE. Say anything . . .
FEAR. I can't shutter my mouth!
TECHNIQUE. . . . you want.
FEAR. The light in my bony forest makes my needles ache . . . [TECHNIQUE,
irritated, walks off.] Did I . . . Did I ever tell you about the time I
was hitchhiking and I got picked up by Ted Bundy?!?
-from Camille Roy's "eclogue" Bye-Bye Brunhilde
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 15:09:44 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Robert A Harrison <Robert.A.Harrison@JCI.COM>
Subject: forward: flower
From: Victor O. Story <story@kutztown.edu>
LA REALIDAD, Mexico (Reuter) - France's former first lady,
Danielle Mitterrand, received a kiss on the hand and a red
flower from Mexican guerrilla leader Subcommander Marcos during
a visit to Zapatista rebel territory.
Marcos, a charismatic, pipe-smoking intellectual who drew
worldwide attention after the Zapatista uprising, led an
emotional greeting Thursday by his guerrilla supporters for the
French widow, the latest in a series of celebrity visitors to
the rebel hideout in the Lacandon jungle near Mexico's border
with Guatemala.
More than 1,000 Indians, dressed in colorful Maya costumes,
came to the remote hamlet of La Realidad about 600 miles
southeast of Mexico City to welcome Danielle Mitterrand.
``Listen (President Ernesto) Zedillo, Danielle is in the
fight'' shouted hundreds of Indian couples, some with children
clutched in their arms, as they stood along a 500-yard ``street
of honor'' formed to greet the 69-year-old widow.
With tears in her eyes, she gave a short speech, thanking
her hosts and telling them: ``It's true that Danielle is in the
fight with you.''
After nightfall, she met Marcos, who arrived on horseback
and flanked by several Zapatista National Liberation Army (EZLN)
commanders.
Marcos, wearing his trademark black ski cap, dismounted,
took a red flower from the lapel of his black military jacket
and offered it to Danielle with a kiss on her hand.
``Welcome, madam,'' he said.
After her meeting, she told a news conference that there was
nothing unusual about her visit. ``It's natural when individuals
share a common dream, which has as its aim the globalization of
peace,'' she said through an interpreter.
``Marcos says that ... just by the fact that I am here,
something might change ... I hope so with all my heart and will
do all I can to advance this cause toward world peace.''
There have been no hostilities in Chiapas state for more
than a year. The Zapatistas have been negotiating a
comprehensive peace accord with the government for the past
year. Analysts say they do not pose any real military threat.
------------------ Nested Letter Follows ------------------
This posting has been forwarded to you as a service of
Accion Zapatista de Austin.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 19:58:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Victor O. Story <story@kutztown.edu>
To: chiapas <chiapas-l@profmexis.sar.net>
Subject: Mexico rebel gives Mitterrand's widow kiss, flower (fwd)
LA REALIDAD, Mexico (Reuter) - France's former first lady,
Danielle Mitterrand, received a kiss on the hand and a red
flower from Mexican guerrilla leader Subcommander Marcos during
a visit to Zapatista rebel territory.
Marcos, a charismatic, pipe-smoking intellectual who drew
worldwide attention after the Zapatista uprising, led an
emotional greeting Thursday by his guerrilla supporters for the
French widow, the latest in a series of celebrity visitors to
the rebel hideout in the Lacandon jungle near Mexico's border
with Guatemala.
More than 1,000 Indians, dressed in colorful Maya costumes,
came to the remote hamlet of La Realidad about 600 miles
southeast of Mexico City to welcome Danielle Mitterrand.
``Listen (President Ernesto) Zedillo, Danielle is in the
fight'' shouted hundreds of Indian couples, some with children
clutched in their arms, as they stood along a 500-yard ``street
of honor'' formed to greet the 69-year-old widow.
With tears in her eyes, she gave a short speech, thanking
her hosts and telling them: ``It's true that Danielle is in the
fight with you.''
After nightfall, she met Marcos, who arrived on horseback
and flanked by several Zapatista National Liberation Army (EZLN)
commanders.
Marcos, wearing his trademark black ski cap, dismounted,
took a red flower from the lapel of his black military jacket
and offered it to Danielle with a kiss on her hand.
``Welcome, madam,'' he said.
After her meeting, she told a news conference that there was
nothing unusual about her visit. ``It's natural when individuals
share a common dream, which has as its aim the globalization of
peace,'' she said through an interpreter.
``Marcos says that ... just by the fact that I am here,
something might change ... I hope so with all my heart and will
do all I can to advance this cause toward world peace.''
There have been no hostilities in Chiapas state for more
than a year. The Zapatistas have been negotiating a
comprehensive peace accord with the government for the past
year. Analysts say they do not pose any real military threat.
**************************************************************
--
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Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 13:30:11 -0500 (CDT)
Message-Id: <199604221830.NAA10947@eco.utexas.edu>
To: chiapas95@mundo.eco.utexas.edu
From: owner-chiapas95@eco.utexas.edu (Chiapas95)
Reply-To: Chiapas 95 Moderators <chiapas@eco.utexas.edu>
Precedence: bulk
Subject: E;Reuter,Marcos gives Mitterrand kiss, flower, Apr 21
------------------ End of Nested Letter ------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 15:14:47 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: KUSZAI <v369t4kj@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: New from Meow Press: Robert Duncan's _Copy Book Entries_
New From Meow Press:
_Copy Book Entries_
Robert Duncan
Meow Press
32pp. 6.25x4.25"
with cover art by Harvey Breverman
$10.00
Available from Small Press Distribution
1814 San Pablo Avenue
Berkeley, California 94702
510-549-3336
or from the publisher (see below)
Published in an extremely limited edition with the cooperation of the
curator of the Poetry/Rare Books Collection, Robert Bertholf, this book
represents the remarkable range and beauty of Robert Duncan's personal
prose writings. It includes eleven unpublished "notebook" entries and
"Crisis of Spirit in the Word" (the legendary "Buffalo Sermon" delivered
at Westminster Presbyterian Church in February, 1982, originally published
in Credences).
OTHER TITLES AVAILABLE FROM MEOW PRESS
George Albon, _King_ $5
Andrews, Bernstein, Sherry, _Technology/Art: 20 Brief Proposals_ $5
Rachel Tzvia Back, _Litany_ $6
Michael Basinski, _Cnyttan_ $5
Dodie Bellamy & Bob Harrison, _Broken English_ $6
Charles Bernstein, _The Subject_ $6
Jonathan Brannen, _The Glass Man Left Waltzing_ $5
Dubravka Djuric, _Cosmopolitan Alphabet_ $5
Robert Fitterman, _Metropolis_ $5
Benjamin Friedlander, _A Knot is Not a Tangle_ $5
Benjamin Friedlander, _Anterior Future_ $5 (New Reprint!)
Peter Gizzi, _New Picnic Time_ $5
Loss P. Glazier, _The Parts_ $5
Mark Johnson, _Three Bad Wishes_ $6
Pierre Joris, _Winnetou Old_ $5
Elizabeth Robinson, _Iemanje_ $5 (New Reprint!)
Leslie Scalapino, _The Line_ $5 (New Reprint!)
James Sherry, _4 For_ $5
Ron Silliman, _Xing_ $6
Misko Suvakovic, _Pas Tout_ $5
Juliana Spahr, _Testimony_ $6
Bill Tuttle, _Epistolary Poems_ $5
Coming Soon:
Wendy Kramer, _Patinas_ $6
Aaron Shurin, _Codex_ $6
Meredith Quartermain, _Terms of Sale_ $6
ANNOUNCING THE SPRING-SUMMER 1996 SERIES
Natalee Caple, The Price of Acorn
Deanna Ferguson, Rough Bush
Hank Lazer, The Lang-Po Dynasty
Ted Pearson, The Devil's Aria
Stephen Ratcliffe, Signature
Lisa Robertson, The Descent
Lisa Samuels, Letters
Gary Sullivan, Dead Man
Also including work by Charles Alexander, Noemie Maxwell, Denise Newman,
and more.
Now reading manuscrips for the 3rd Anniversary Series.
SPECIAL OFFER TO POETICS LIST SUBSCRIBERS!
We'd like to thank those of you who took us up on our last offer
and we'd also like to renew that offer: 4 books for the price of 3 &
7 books for the price of 5. Because our institutional support is
limited, and the labor involved in making these books is great, we
would like to urge those of you with available means to subscribe
to the press. As a subscriber, you will be entitled to all of the
Meow Press publications, including the ephemera series and the new
journal (formerly newsletter) The Rusty Word.
Please write for more information:
Joel Kuszai
Meow Press
151 Park Street
Buffalo, NY 14201
v369t4kj@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
kuszai@acsu.buffalo.edu
EPHEMERA SERIES
Published in extremely limited editions
(number of copies in parentheses)
Free with subscriptions and to friends of the press
SDDDRTT-123 by Bishop Morda (10) (no longer available)
Report on Community by Joel Kuszai (50)
Filmic 10 by Joel Kuszai (50)
Riven by Cynthia Kimball (100)
Barstokai by Michael Basinski (100)
28 for the Road by Kristin Prevallet (100)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 14:21:30 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: place can be cute too
This is Dodie. Cleaning up I found an ancient flyer for Volume V of the
Reader's Digest Condensed Book Club, which includes a story by William
Faulker. I find it interesting how Reader's Digest uses place to sell
Faulkner to the masses:
William Faulkner, author of the memorable TWO SOLDIERS, and one of
America's most distinguished writers, is a rooted Mississippian who seldom
gets far from the town of oxford.
Slim, short and sharp-eyed, Faulkner prefers shootin' and farmin' to
literary teas. He has used much of the comfortable income earned from his
writing to buy farm land and refurbish the family house in Oxford. He is
an expert and enthusiastic farmer (he even does his own brewing) and says
that a high point of his recent trip to Stockholm to receive the Nobel
Prize was a talk with the King of Sweden, who turned out to be a good dirt
farmer, too. As for the Prize ceremonies, Mr. Faulkner commented: "Very
impressive. But they went on and on for about ten hours, like a
Mississippi funeral."
And I thought it was only poets that were "cute"-ified by the media in
order to make them palatable.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 14:39:33 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: allegory, faith, poetry, metonymy, hike
Dave! Dave Baratier!
What exactly did you mean when you said to Steve Carll, 'it's an allegory'?
The last time I remember that phrase being used was in Doonesbury around
maybe it was 75. Something about the Ford administration offering all
people who pay their taxes in a timely fashion (or maybe it was a gas
crisis joke? which would make it much later) a handsome set of tumblers.
I think I used 'allegorical' in reference to Bill Luoma's reading of
community as a neighborhood issue. Probably I was overearnest in an
indefensible way.
But it seemed to me you were using 'it's an allegory' as a kind of
rhetorical dodge, kindred probably to anonymity viz Poe discussion. Is
Poe's middle name taken from a certain anthology? Whoops, caught me caring
again!
Anyway, Dave, I didn't want you to think your provocative remark went
unnoticed. I'm curious about it because I love to see any new instance of
metaphor in public discourse.
Regards,
Jordan
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 15:06:24 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Nicole Hoelle <97jhoell@ULTRIX.UOR.EDU>
I am going to be in Berkeley this weekend and want to know if there are
going to be any readings in Berkeley (or San Francisco) about which I
should be informed. Any responses will be greatly appreciated.
THANKS
NICOLE HOELLE
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 17:10:47 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steve Carll <sjcarll@SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: Bay Area Readings
At 03:06 PM 4/22/96 -0700, you wrote:
>I am going to be in Berkeley this weekend and want to know if there are
>going to be any readings in Berkeley (or San Francisco) about which I
>should be informed. Any responses will be greatly appreciated.
>
>THANKS
>NICOLE HOELLE
Well, on Thursday night at 8:00 at New Langton Arts in S.F. (Folsom between
8th and 9th), Alice Notley will be reading.
Friday at 7:30 at New College of California in S.F. (18th and Valencia),
Camille Roy and Erica Hunt will be reading.
And Saturday at 10 am at the Zen Center at 300 Page St. in S.F., Philip
Whalen will be giving a lecture and talking about his work and signing
books, "and many friends will read from [Whalen's new book] Canoeing Up
Cabarga Creek[: Buddhist Poems, 1955-1986]."
Can you stand it all?
Steve
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 02:19:11 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Oppen's magazine publishings etc.
There are people on this list (Rachel Blau DuPlessis, David McAleavey,
to name two) who know a lot more about Oppen than I, but I recall first
seeing his work in a little mag called The San Francisco Review, a sort
of "wannabe" upscale lit mag (a current equivalent, tho fatter, would
be Grand Street), that did a significant section on him (and, in
another issue, on Jack Gilbert). Gordon Lish was involved and may have
been the chief editor.
I don't know that he did any writing in Mexico and would not be
surprised if the re-start wasn't pinned to the return to the US (he and
Mary drove north with Fred Cody and his wife, who were on their way to
Berkeley to start a bookstore). I recall a conversation with Mary once
in which she noted that talking in Spanish all day left them exhausted
linguistically by the evening.
But this is a jumble of unedited memories here,
Ron Silliman
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 08:10:02 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Henry Gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Prov. RI reading
4 poets will read at Little Professor bkstore, 519 N. Main St in Providence,
on Friday April 26th at 7 pm:
Sir Edwin Honig (he's being knighted by the Spanish Gov't today),
James Schevill, and Nedge editors Janet Sullivan and Henry Gould.
Verde, te quiero verde...
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 09:32:39 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Oppen's magazine publishings etc.
any way to find out which poems appeared in sf review or elsewhere
prior to Oppen's The Materials? And, does anyone know where I can get
to see the relevant issue(s) of SF Review? Also, I seem to have
read somewhere that G O published in the fifties something in Poetry?
Burt
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 07:28:25 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Erica Hunt
In-Reply-To: <199604230411.AAA24914@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
Haven't seen that Kelsey St. book down here yet -- has it been
distributed yet??? anybody know release date?? I NEED a copy of that
book --
Dodie, or whoever -- Will the Hunt / Roy reading be taped? If there are
no plans to do so, cd somebody put a cassette recorder in front of them
for me? I'm going to be writing a chapter on Hunt's work and a tape wd
be helpful --
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 07:48:03 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Douglas Messerli <djmess@SUNMOON.COM>
Subject: Re: Turkish poetry on WWW
Those interested in Turkish poetry should also
check out the new Sun & Moon Classics publication
of Ece Ayhan's A BLIND CAT BLACK and ORTHODOXIES,
translated by Murat Nemet-Nejat. This book, which
will be published early this Fall, will truly
reveal how exciting modern and contemporary Turkish
poetry is.
--Douglas Messerli
=====================================
At 06:31 PM 4/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Dear Friends,
>
>I have been thinking about writing this message
>since I read the announcement
>regarding the new issue of Talisman
>featuring Turkish poetry in translation.
>
>If you are interested in reading Turkish poetry,
>there are at least two sites you can take a look at:
>
>
>Turkish Poetry Homepage
>at
>http://www.cs.umd.edu/users/sibel/poetry/poetry.html
>
>and
>
>Marmara
>at
>http://maxwell.njit.edu/merhaba/marmara/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------
>
>Mustafa Ziyalan
>
>ziyalan@is2.nyu.edu
>http://maxwell.njit.edu/merhaba/dir/mziyalan/
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 09:45:24 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: Re: Erica Hunt
Al,
I don't know if Erica's book is out yet or still "due." Rena Rossenwasser
is bringing copies of Kelsey Street books to the reading. She can be
contacted at: kelseyst@sirius.com.
And yes, Kush told me that he would be taping the reading. Most likely
he'll be taping you as well in May.
x,
Dodie
At 7:28 AM 4/23/96, Aldon L. Nielsen wrote:
>Haven't seen that Kelsey St. book down here yet -- has it been
>distributed yet??? anybody know release date?? I NEED a copy of that
>book --
>
>Dodie, or whoever -- Will the Hunt / Roy reading be taped? If there are
>no plans to do so, cd somebody put a cassette recorder in front of them
>for me? I'm going to be writing a chapter on Hunt's work and a tape wd
>be helpful --
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 11:41:57 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jeffrey W. Timmons" <mnamna@IMAP1.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: thoreau, civil disobedience
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9604220954.A29361-0100000@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>
Mark
yes. i think the problem is in the vagueness of "higher cause." There
is simply no consensus--or radically different conceptions of it--anymore
it seems. In some ways this is good but in others obviously it has a
down side.
someone mentioned i believe the need for new fictions of inclusion or
consensus or national belonging here some time ago. but isnt the
skepticism about such myths or fictions so pervasive that any sort of
consensus is perceived as a threat to "individual rights" of some sort?
jeffrey timmons
On Mon, 22 Apr 1996, Mark Wallace wrote:
> Jeffrey Timmons:
>
> Yes, it's clear that certain U.S. groups are now misuing the
> notion of civil disobedience. After all, civil disobedience does has to
> be based on your sense that you're being disobedient in the name of a
> higher cause. Somehow, eliminating slavery seems to me such a higher
> cause, wehereas Christian Freemen who think that jews stole the name of
> "chosen people" from right-thinking American christians, and that blacks
> are subhuman, hardly constitutes a higher cause. Furthermore, as you
> point out, there is a big distinction between Thoreau's pacifism and the
> current extremist violence.
>
> I still think civil disobedience is a necessary and valuable way
> of approaching all sorts of issues. It's the groups in question that need
> to be condemned (as you recognize), not the notion of civil disobedience
> which they're misuing and do not understand.
>
> mark wallace
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 16:02:02 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David McAleavey <dmca@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Oppen's magazine publishings etc.
In-Reply-To: <009A1480.474475FC.121@admin.njit.edu>
Sorry I can't be definitive about this, but my Oppen books are in two
different places. But: _Paideuma_ 10, 1 (Spring 1981) published a
bibliography of Oppen's poems which I put together, with the help of George
and Mary Oppen (among others). After the work published in the 1930s, I
have no citation for any published work prior to the January 1960 issue
of _Poetry_ magazine. The _San Francisco Review_ entry is, I see,
lamentably incomplete: it only cites the issue number (#7), not the
date. So Ron's notion that _SFR_ published poems by Oppen in the late
1950s is not one I can either prove or disprove. By the by, wasn't June
Oppen Degnan, George's younger half-sister, the publisher of _SFR_? In
fact both _The Materials_ and _This in Which_, if I recall correctly,
were jointly issued by New Directions and _SFR_.
As for the date George resumed writing poems -- 1958 is what sticks in my
mind. If I can, I'll try to double check this information later on. Or
others on the list can confirm/deny....
On Tue, 23 Apr 1996, Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT wrote:
> any way to find out which poems appeared in sf review or elsewhere
> prior to Oppen's The Materials? And, does anyone know where I can get
> to see the relevant issue(s) of SF Review? Also, I seem to have
> read somewhere that G O published in the fifties something in Poetry?
>
> Burt
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 16:12:31 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Kellogg <kellogg@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>
Subject: Wanda Coleman
Hi,
Does anybody on this list have Wanda Coleman's phone number? I need to
get in touch with her . . .
Email me directly if you can help. Many thanks.
Cheers,
David
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Kellogg Duke University
kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program
(919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708
FAX (919) 684-6277
There is some excitement in one corner,
but most of the ghosts are merely shaking their heads.
-- Thomas Kinsella
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 13:47:53 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steve Carll <sjcarll@SLIP.NET>
Subject: I found this on a local board. I have NOT verified it.
>>From sjcarll Mon Apr 22 19:23:08 1996
>Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 19:24:30 -0700 (PDT)
>From: David Tipton <6500dtpt@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu>
>To: Universal Mailer <Eric_Skiles@sedgus.com>, mbates@s3.sonnet.com,
> mmscott@gsbpop.uchicago.edu, sjcarll@slip.net
>Subject: I found this on a local board. I have NOT verified it.
>
>Tehran (Reuters) - For the past few weeks, the behind-the-doors
>discussion at many Iranian newspaper and magazine publishing outfits
>seems to be revolving not around political, social and economic issues, but the
>spelling of Bob Dole's name instead.
> It turns out that the proper spelling of the Republican Party's likely
>nominee, Dole, is exactly the same as that of the word "penis" in Farsi.
> For an exact pronunciation, "Dowl" as opposed to "Dol," it would
>have to be spelled as the Farsi word for "penis." In print, especially for
headlines,
>"...we don't use [optional] vowel symbols. Because of that, his name can be
>read in that way."
> Ali Zarkoob, a grade school teacher in Western Tehran said, "I'm sure
>kids will find it very funny. The humor magazines will probably go crazy over
>it too."
> A columnist for Tehran's Hamshahri daily who requested to remain
>anonymous stated, "It's a real problem that no one wants to face. Think
>about it. What should we write if he wins? `Clinton loses Presidency?'
That's not
>right. `Penis wins US Presidency' isn't exactly acceptable either."
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 14:30:50 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Theresa Hak Kyung Cha
In-Reply-To: <199603110702.CAA10237@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
Walter Lew or anybody else who knows --
In the contributor's note to _Premonitions_ it says that there will be a
book of poetry by Theresa Hak Kyung Cha from Kaya Production -- Any due
date on that yet?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 09:52:15 GMT+1300
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: Re: can't play (skinny arms)
Ornette Coleman on trumpet is said to have annoyed Miles Davis?
Tony Green,
e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 17:03:16 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steve Carll <sjcarll@SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: can't play (skinny arms)
At 09:52 AM 4/24/96 GMT+1300, Tony Green wrote:
>Ornette Coleman on trumpet is said to have annoyed Miles Davis?
Yes, Miles was doing the "Blindfold Test" for _DownBeat_ one time when they
played him an Ornette cut. His response was (imagine that raspy voice now!)
something like, "It sounds like Ornette Coleman--and it sounds like
someone's standin' on his foot."
*************
Steve Carll
sjcarll@slip.net
"--A sound of waters bending astride the sky
Unceasing with some Word that will not die...!"
--Hart Crane
**************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 12:33:19 GMT+1300
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: Re: I found this on a local board. I have NOT verified it.
Re Dole/?penis. These things do occur. There was a similar problem
in English-speaking countries over the name of French rugby forward
Jean Condom every time he wrapped up an opponent. But noone stopped
printing his name out of embarrassment as far as I know.
Tony Green,
e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 22:30:48 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Walter K. Lew" <WKL888@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: thoreau, civil disobedience
Dear Jeff Timmons,
The problem is not a bi-polar opposition of a national or unifying myth
vs. individual rights (which still operates within a romanticized All vs. One
paradigm, even if many "Ones" vs. a constantly re-morphing All), but multiple
fields or zones: the historically inescapable situation of many conflicting
national myths simultaneously circulating, drifting, falling through each
other within "America". It's not a matter of winning "individuals" over to
The Myth but the basically unresolvable antagonism between the many myths
that are out (t)here. And, in fact, within these other myths and cultures
(which we pretentiously call "SUBcultural"), people probably feel themselves
less constituted as "individuals" (in any significant Western philosophical
sense) than they would be in standard U.S. ideology. That's one very
fundamental reason why we need so many narratives, although I hope people
know by the way I have edited Asian American and diasporic volumes, that this
by no means implies support for a Norton or Heath Anthology version of
pancake multiculturalism (I think Chris Daniels alluded to such a few weeks
ago in a message about envisioning-dead-grandparents poems--a trope,
incidentally, that (along with what Prof. Sau-ling Wong of UC Berkeley calls
"food pornography") has become an obsession in a lot of pulp or mainstream
Asian American literature (Amy Tan's latest ridiculousness {I have this
Chinese ability to see ghosts, nyeah, nyeah}, memoirs and elegies by poets
like Garrett Hongo and Li-young Lee, etc.: a trope that the emerging
novelist Heinz Insu Fenkl {a book due out from Dutton this fall, teaches at
Vassar} calls the trope of "mummification", in which a tormented cadaver from
the old country is the pre-requisite for any narrative to begin. Of course,
there are a lot of good graveyard poems left to be written (just as even
Schoenberg said that there were good symphonies still to be written in
C-major), but this has become a sadistic standard technique by which Asian
American writers relate "poetically" to the past without feeling obligated to
renovate it somehow. Maybe it's because dead people can't talk back to what
their poorly informed descendants are saying.)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 22:30:54 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Walter K. Lew" <WKL888@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Theresa Hak Kyung Cha
Dear Aldon Nielsen,
Kaya Production never had plans to publish a book of Theresa Hak Kyung
Cha's poetry. There is not enough verifiably finished work that hasn't
already been published in *DICTEE* and the anthologies *Hotel* {Reese
Williams, ed.} and *Apparatus* {Cha, ed.}--both published by Reese' defunct
Tanam Press [Printed Matter in New York may still have copies?]--to make a
substantial volume. (The piece in Reese's anthology *Fire Over Water* is
taken from DICTEE.) There WERE plans for the second issue of the journal
*Muae: a journal of transcultural production* to include a special section on
Cha's work in several media, including poetry; the previously unpublished
poem on the Hopper painting that appears in *Premonitions* (not the opening
excerpts from "Commentaire") was originally given to me by her then-husband,
the photographer Richard Barnes (Cha died in 1982), along with two other
unpublished poems; these latter were going to appear in Muae, but I am no
longer editor of Muae and it's clear that the new editor/editorial board
(none has been PUBLICALLY announced yet) would not be interested in carrying
out the previous board's projected plans, except to aggravate us by
appropriating the ideas and doing it wrong (which the Korean sister journal
of Muae in Seoul, *Munhak chongshin*, has just done in its latest issue by
getting a bunch of hypocrites to write pseudo-post-modern articles about the
re-emergence of the pivotal 1980 Kwangju Massacre--the transformation of
possibly the most important political event in South Korean history during
the last three decades into diverse mass media "text").
Now, there ARE unpublished poems by Cha that, however, one cannot
confidently declare "finished" in the fascinating Cha archive that has been
established at the University Art Museum (UC Berk) under the curatorship of
Larry Rinder, who wrote his M.A. thesis on Cha's work (I think at Hunter in
NYC). You have to call to make an appointment ahead of time because someone
has to accompany and monitor you as you go through the notebooks, etc. The
archive has prepared a catalog as well. I have some thoughts on the poetical
and philosophical fragments there if you would like to pursue further
conversation on this matter and I could also send you copies of the two poems
that Richard gave me. Do you have a particular interest--was it the
multi-media work or the poem that more interested you?
By the way, any journal or press editor out there interested in publishing
a suddenly orphaned collection of essays by 5-6 writers on Cha's work? We
would need good paper and a careful printer for reproducing the video and
performance stills. Contact me for the exiciting details!
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 22:30:59 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Walter K. Lew" <WKL888@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: USOP
Bob, Emily and anyone else interested in Lesbian poetry--
Take a look at the six poems by Ann Kong on pp. 152ff of *Premonitions*
(one of the poems is also in *Muae: A journal of transcultural production*).
They're very different from each other and very, very good (even *Library
Journal* understood their mysticism to a certain extent!--thanks Fred
Muratori). She's one of the "discoveries" in the book. The type of poet
Garrett Hongo would have never considered publishing in that Doubleday
anthology *The Banana Boat* (Kimiko Hahn, Al Robles, Theresa Cha, Lois Ann
are just four of the many other Asian American poets that were somehow deemed
less important than his cast of workshop poets). Ann Kong runs a bleach
bottle ant farm, a restaurant, and holds an annual Neil YOung birthday party
(that's what her answering machine says) in and around Berkeley. I've never
seen her read, but Bob she's bettern than most of the more well-known US
poets of Lesbos --do you want her contact info?
Hey, it's fun to be back on the elist at my new address:
WKL888@AOL.com--sorry for all these messages, but I haven't been able to
transmit anything but the briefest text over the last few weeks due to cpu
problems. Which also hasn't allowed me to explain what some of you must have
considered my obnoxious message about Mom's shit proverbs and white science,
etc. That message was any emailer's primal nightmare--it was only meant for
Maria to see and I sent it out to everybdy by mistake. Not that I withdraw
anything I said ("What the Lew meant to say is thatx"), but if I had known it
was going out to the whole list i would have expressed and explained things
differently. Which I will later. This is also why I wasn't able to respond
to Jordan Davis's questions about "white guys! white guys!" and "Korean
commercialism"--and let such gems pass by uncommented on as Henry Gould's
strange assertion that all women in South Korea do is shop and plan big meals
and Maria Damon's humorously enjambed (but inaccurately recalled) verse from
"Woe-is-uh-Me-Bop" (side 1, cut 6 of Capt. Beefheart & The Magic Band's
immortal *Lick My Decals Off, Baby*--Chris Daniels, How could you expect
Beefheart to be a "primitive"? It's just that he's just very close to
Mississippi Blues--GREAT ANECDOTE about meeting him at the gallery--it's like
when I met Ringo Starr hiding behind a column near the British Airways
counter at JFK International and he couldn't get enthused by any project now
that he was no longer caught up in film acting and music--the physical detail
I remember most is that his lips were all scabby and ravaged by infection--Is
that why he was hiding?) Henry, you'll get yours later, but thanks for
taking *Muae* into your archive (I got my M.A. at Brown in 1981--it's great
to hear that Edwin's a knight now--how can I contact him?: it does, I think,
have enough poetry in it to qualify and I hope other people on the elist will
ORDER COPIES directly from me (also available at Cody's, SPD, St. Mark's,
Printed matter, etc.). O.K.--sorry to send three messages in one shot (and
that doesn't even count all the individual back-channeling I'm sending along
with these to avoid clogging up the list)--I promise to stay off for a day or
two.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 19:43:05 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Jeffrey W. Timmons" <mnamna@IMAP1.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: thoreau, civil disobedience
In-Reply-To: <960423223047_197613643@emout18.mail.aol.com>
On Tue, 23 Apr 1996, Walter K. Lew wrote:
> Dear Jeff Timmons,
> The problem is not a bi-polar opposition of a national or unifying myth
> vs. individual rights (which still operates within a romanticized All vs. One
> paradigm, even if many "Ones" vs. a constantly re-morphing All), but multiple
> fields or zones: the historically inescapable situation of many conflicting
> national myths simultaneously circulating, drifting, falling through each
> other within "America".
well i agree. but i still think it is a matter of "individuals"
resisting national/unifying myths/fictions--at least as much as theres no
way it seems to me to unify across certain chasms that the unabomber the
freemen waco ruby ridge the sheik et al represent in the american
fabric. i agree there are polyvalent fictions polymorphic americas out
there but do you think its possible for such discontinuities to find
common ground? ok ok ok. i know: thats not the point. the point is
finding something (what?) in the simultaneity of differences coexisting.
this seems a whitmanian problem dont it? and as such it seems to have
failed in the sense that some "individuals" and groups following their
own "higher cause" no longer see that cause as the public welfare but
their own self-serving bottom line. your myth is interfering with my way
of life buddy!--you can hear em saying....
stop me....
JEFFREY timmons
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 00:29:58 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Colleen Lookingbill <Zorlook@AOL.COM>
Subject: S.F. Reading Albon/Torra
Joseph Torra and George Albon will be reading at Canessa Park Gallery on
Thursday evening, May 2, 1996 at 8:00 pm. Admission is $5, address is 708
Montgomery Street, corner of Columbus and Montgomery. See you there!
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 00:45:45 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Eryque Gleason <eryque@ACMENET.NET>
Subject: Re: USOP
Dear walter, i just read yr apologetic post, and i for one would rather
that you go ahead and keep posting! Although, it might be good to send
messages in groups every few hours. With the way that threads come and go
here, if you stay off for a day or two, we may have forgotten the original
thread!
Eryque
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 23:32:53 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Stephen Galen Cope <scope@UCSCB.UCSC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Erica Hunt
Aldon:
Erica Hunt was just here reading and had copies of her new book hot off
the press. As I'm sure you can imagine, it's lovely (woodcut prints on
vellum accompany the poems). So it shouldn't be long before it finds its
way there. MacGregor Card also taped the reading here, and I'll send you
his number if you backchannel...
Best,
Stephen Cope
(scope@cats.ucsc.edu)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 22:44:49 -1000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: For: >utah school board petition (fwd)
Comments: To: egg-l <egg-l@hawaii.edu>
Comments: cc: suongc@hawaii.edu, grow-l@hawaii.edu
Please review and if you support the petition follow the instructions for
signing and forwarding...
On February 20, 1996, the Salt Lake City School Board voted to ban all
clubs to keep a Gay/Lesbian/Straight Alliance from forming at East High
School. Despite numerous phone calls and countless letters, the board
seems to remain recalcitrant.
Salt Lake City will host the 2002 Winter Olympics with the slogan "The
World is Welcome Here." The Salt Lake City School Board's decision >calls into
question how much of the "World" is truly "Welcome" here.
The Citizen's Alliance for Hate Free Schools, a project of the Utah
Human Rights Coalition, calls on all supporters of the rights of young
people to have equal access to educational opportunities and safe
schools to sign the following petition.
PLEASE SIGN THE PETITION AND THEN FORWARD TO SOMEONE ELSE.
IF YOU ARE THE TENTH PERSON TO SIGN YOUR NAME, FORWARD THE LIST BACK TO
ME: cdorchard@earthlink.net (i.e., the 10th, 20th, 30th person will
forward this message to me in progress). I will compile the petition
and send it to the board members.
Target Deadline: June 4, 1996
PETITION TO THE SALT LAKE CITY SCHOOL BOARD
"We, the undersigned, support the efforts by area high school students
to organize non-curricular clubs and alliances designed to increase >
understanding and good will among the high school population and the
general public as well. We call on the Salt Lake City School Board to
resist all illegal attempts at intimidation and coercion to deprive
their students of their legally guaranteed rights. We request that they
take immediate action to reverse their decision on February 20, 1996 to
ban all clubs."
NAME PLACE OF RESIDENCE EMAIL (not obligatory)
1. Alison Streit, Washington, DC
2. Christine Allison, Santa Barbara, CA
3. Larry McLellan, Santa Barbara, CA
4. Keith Goeringer, San Francisco, CA keg@violet.berkeley.edu
5. Meridith Wulff, Washington, DC
6. Kelly Hoffman, Washington, DC
7. Monica Sahaf, Washington, DC
8. Sarah Dailey, Washington, DC
9. Travis Truman, Washington, DC trumant@gusun.georgetown.edu
10. Alethea Claire Dailey, Manhattan, NY CDAILEY@aol.com
11. Katy Forsyth, Manhattan, NY>12. J. Monty Worth, San Franciso, CA
13. Anne Mahle, New York, NY
14. Mike Fee, SALT LAKE CITY, UT!
15. Karen Mac Fee, Salt Lake City, UT
16. Libby Marsh, San Francisco, CA libby@match.com
17. Dave Janka, San Francisco, CA djanka@sirius.com
18. Kim Puckett-Slinn, San Francisco, CA kim_puckett_slinn@anlsf.com
19. davidmahr, San Francisco, CA dmahr@hooked.net
20. Steve Mele, San Francisco, CA smele@earthlink.net
21. Sloan Ginn, San Francisco, CA Sloan_Ginn@ideascope.com
22. Susan Lee, Burlington, VT susan_lee@jdk.com
23. Kevin Murakami, Burlington, VT kevin_murakami@jdk.com
24. Julie Wells, Burlington, VT
25. Colleen McKiernan, Burlington, VT cmckiern@moose.uvm.edu
26. Paul A. Wojtaszek, Aurora, CO Paul.Wojtaszek@UCHSC.EDU
27. Paul Orosz, Denver, CO pauoro@auto-trol.com
28. Scott James, Naples, FL scott@naples.net
29. Erin Buckley, Reston, VA ebuckley@applix.com
30. Barb Fulton, Arvada, CO barful@auto-trol.com
31. Shelley Reid, Sherman, TX sreid@austinc.edu
32. Gabrielle Welford, Honolulu HI welford@hawaii.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 03:00:49 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Oppen's magazine publishings etc.
I have not seen a copy of the SF Review since I was in college in the
1960s. The admirable, even awesome archive at UCSD did not yet exist in
those days, so I don't know if it ever was acquired there. What about
at SUNY Buffalo? Poetry should be collected in any decent college
library (and is well worth browsing through the old issues of, at least
through Henry Rago's regime -- Rago, who started as editor in around
1955, was the editor who devoted so much space to printing Zukofsky
there and would have been the one who printed Oppen, if indeed he was
there...Rago went through some sort of conversion experience around
1962 and the journal became much more eclectic at that time, up until
his death in 1969. I still keep the 50th anniversary issue and the two
double issues from that same period. The April-May 1965 double issue
(devoted to works in progress, long poems, and sequences) includeds
Creeley, Duncan ("The Fire"), Ronald Johnson, Kenneth Koch, Levertov,
Olson (including Cole's Island), Gary Snyder, Charles Tomlinson (from
his American poem sequence, quite a terrific usage of WCW's influence),
Gael Turnbull and Philip Whalen. Plus, on the more conservative side,
Wendell Berry, Hayden Carruth, Galway Kinnell, Adrienne Rich, Anne
Sexton and Ted Weiss. Could any mag today print such a diverse set of
poets of like quality? I doubt it.
Ron Silliman
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 03:43:59 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Oppen's magazine publishings etc.
David, Burt, et alia,
"The _San Francisco Review_ entry is, I see,
>lamentably incomplete: it only cites the issue number (#7), not the
>date. So Ron's notion that _SFR_ published poems by Oppen in the late
>1950s is not one I can either prove or disprove. By the by, wasn't
June Oppen Degnan, George's younger half-sister, the publisher of
_SFR_? In fact both _The Materials_ and _This in Which_, if I recall
correctly, were jointly issued by New Directions and _SFR_.
>
If it was #7, then I'd wager that SF Rev must have been well into the
60s (this is sort of what happens to memory). Yes, I believe that June
was the publisher and that SFR co-published the early books as well.
Didn't George Hitchcock have something to do w/ SFR at some point?
Ron
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 09:19:06 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Fred Muratori <fmm1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Oppen's magazine publishings etc.
Thanks to Cornell's complete set of _San Francisco Review_, I was able to
locate the issue (Vol. 1, #7) with the Oppen poems. It's dated December
1960. The poems ("Monument,""Antique," & "Debt") appear on pages 72-73.
The contributor's note is almost objectionably modest, riding as it does on
the tail of Gil Orlovitz's: "...He [Orlovitz] now lives in New York City,
as does George Oppen, the former editor of the _Objectivist Press_."
That's it, period.
(As an aside, it's a real pleasure to run across Orlovitz's poems again.
Talk about a poet who's been unjustifiably neglected. Anyone know if his
work is still in print?)
Also, George Hitchcock is credited as an associate editor from the first
issue clear through to the last.
>David, Burt, et alia,
>
>"The _San Francisco Review_ entry is, I see,
>>lamentably incomplete: it only cites the issue number (#7), not the
>>date. So Ron's notion that _SFR_ published poems by Oppen in the late
>>1950s is not one I can either prove or disprove. By the by, wasn't
>June Oppen Degnan, George's younger half-sister, the publisher of
>_SFR_? In fact both _The Materials_ and _This in Which_, if I recall
>correctly, were jointly issued by New Directions and _SFR_.
>>
>If it was #7, then I'd wager that SF Rev must have been well into the
>60s (this is sort of what happens to memory). Yes, I believe that June
>was the publisher and that SFR co-published the early books as well.
>
>Didn't George Hitchcock have something to do w/ SFR at some point?
>
>Ron
***********************
Fred Muratori "From dreams and memories,"
(fmm1@cornell.edu) words vanish first."
Reference Services Division - Rae Armantrout
Olin * Kroch * Uris Libraries
Cornell University
Ithaca, NY 14853
WWW: http://fmref.library.cornell.edu/spectra.html
***********************
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 09:23:47 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Emily Lloyd <emilyl@EROLS.COM>
Subject: lesbo premonitions
walter, I was about an hour ahead of your pointing towards ann kong...just
got my copy of *Premonitions*, and yes, I enjoyed her work very much. (tho
curious: who do you have in mind when you say "better than most of the more
well-known US poets of Lesbos? not at all disagreeing, just wondering who
these are for you). seems as if asian voices have been particularly
silenced/absent/whatever from lesbian poetry (good to see inverse not true
here)...the only other one I've found is kitty tsui, who's not in
*Premonitions* but is highly anthologized & regarded in the queergirl
community. it was also good to see some erotic gay male stuff...& timothy
liu, if you're still out there, beautiful as always. em
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Emily Lloyd emilyl@erols.com
"Fist my mind in your hand"--Rukeyser
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 09:50:19 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Loss Glazier <lolpoet@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Your favorite listserv
For a list I'm composing, how about sending me VIA DIRECT MAIL
your FAVORITE (other than Poetics!) mailing list and its address!!! Don't
reply to the list, send to lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu
THANKS!
Loss
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 09:21:23 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU>
Subject: poetry (the journal)...
ron, yes, i have those issues of poetry too... kind of amazing to read
through...
but what is it, exactly, prevents an even *more* amazing such amalgam
today?... i mean, esp. given what's been unearthed, as it were, socially
and culturally, locally and globally, in the intervening three decades?...
seems to me a journal these days might muster more diversity, aesthetically
and otherwise, with equivalent quality... has it been done?... is it being
done?... where?...
any takers?... love to know what y'all think...
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 10:42:40 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X
From: Alan Golding <ACGOLD01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject: Oppen
Associate Professor of English, U. of Louisville
Phone: (502)-852-5918; e-mail: acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu
Burt (thought I'd post this to the list in case others are interested)--
Can't help with most of your questions, but: my edition of *The Materials*
lists poems as having been previously published in Poetry, The SF Review, and
The Massachusetts Review. And yes, as David M. said, *The Materials* (and also
*This In Which*) were joint publishing projects of New Directions and June
Oppen Degnan's SF Review. Like many others, I had always thought/assumed that
GO started writing The Materials on returning to the US in 1958 (think I've
got that date right), but in *Meaning: A Life* Mary says that he started just
before their return, after a psychiatrist interpreted one of George's dreams
as meaning that "you don't want to rust, do you?" According to Mary, he
immediately ran out, bought some paper, and started writing.
OK--just checked the Selected Letters--Rachel dates GO's return to poetry as
May 1958, with the first poem being "Blood from the Stone." The Oppens
received their passports to return to the US in Aug. 1958.
Alan G.
PS: An ambiguous blurb on *The Materials* says that poems in the book had
appeared in Poetry, Mass. Review, SF Rev. "and other periodicals."
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 09:55:53 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU>
Subject: mummies, mommies, etc...
walter lew, really fascinating post on the transfigured 'old-country'
cadaver... have always been struck by this (poetic) phenomenon and am
wondering how this figures differently in the asian context, say, from my
own peculiar preoccupation with euro origins (being 1st. gen american on my
mother's side, 2nd. on my father's)... albeit wrt cadavers, my
inclinations/ruminations have more to do with the body transplanted, death
(and aging) in a place other than one's 'country of origin'... how does the
concept of place operate in the asian context, the concept of rootedness
even?... any thoughts on this latter i'd love to hear...
best,
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 11:01:40 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Maria Damon <MDamon9999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: USOP
walter lew:
what's a bleach bottle ant farm and is it worth my while to start one? as i
sd backchannel, no need to worry excessively about your shit proverbs etc. i
like the contentious nature of the list and appreciate your contributions,
tho' yeah, you cd say the same thing in a diff way...or is that a
theoretically incorrect statement?
bests, maria d
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 11:01:52 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rachel Blau DuPlessis <RDUPLESS@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
Organization: TEMPLE UNIVERSITY
Subject: Re: Oppen's magazine publishings etc.
In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 22 Apr 1996 10:45:09 EST from
<kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
in RE: Oppen, I'll tell you what I know about some, but not all, of your
questions. Oppen "returned" to poetry in May 1958. As I say in the intro. and
ancillary materials in the _Selected Letters_ there are a couple of reasons,
interior/psychological and exterior/political. In Nov. 1957, Oppen's name was
removed from the "Security Index." In early 1958, Linda Oppen was accepted at
college, and the long complicated snarls of fatherhood which GO felt were
about to loosen somewhat. Also in 1958 (as best I know) Mary Oppen initiated
visits to a therapist, and with a characteristic flair and acceleration, GO
proceeded to have his initiatory "Rust in Copper" dream which I talk about
in intro, and which also comes up in interviews (e.g. with David MacAleavy)
as being defining. His contact with publishers began soon after (in 1959)
eased and mediated by the fact that his sister June Oppen Degnan was running
the San Francisco Review. As for Bronk, I am sorry that I did not record the
date of the first letter, in the _Selected Letters_, but I would like to say
for your benefit and for the benefit of others working on Oppen that I gave my
papers concerning the making of the _Selected Letters_ to UCSD, where the
Oppen collection is housed. That is folders of letters from all recipients, all
I had to sleect from, arranged by year (my dates, as you know) and within each
folder, by approximate time of year. Also Bronk's letters are there, and the
UCSD folks (uniformly helpful) should be able to tell you when first contac
t between the two poets occurred. Rachel Blau DuPlessis rdupless@vm.temple.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 12:01:13 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Coffey <MCOFFEY@PW.CAHNERS.COM>
Subject: Re: Erica Hunt -Reply
Comments: To: scope@UCSCB.UCSC.EDU
there is a nice review of Erica Hunt's new book, Arcade, published by
Kelsey St, in the april 29 issue of Publishers Weekly; also, a rave for
seamus heaney's new book, The Spirit Level, from Farrar Straus; a pan
of Donald Hall's newest; a starred review of Alicia Ostriker's newest
from Univ. of Pittsburgh, among other things.
i'm new to the list, and work at Publishers Weekly. so if folks are
interested, I could mention it when books that might be relevant to the list
crowd get any notice in ol' PW.
also, i hope no one fears that some establishment toady is now lurking
on the list. I too wish for less space for the tired and old form-masters
and more for innovation, new foices etc, and I do what i can. And
please, feel free to address me on mainstream or small press issues if
you wish. Would be interested to hear what people out there are
thinking.
you can reach me directly at mcoffey@pw.cahners.com
my phone is 212-463-6770
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 09:10:09 PDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jerry Rothenberg <jrothenb@CARLA.UCSD.EDU>
The following was sent out locally and may be of interest to those within easy
travel distance of San Diego.
jr
---------------------------------------------------------------
S L A M \ T E X T
A Festival of Poetry, Music, Video, and Performance
---------------------------------------------------------------
Beginning Thursday, May 2 through Saturday, May 4, 1996, the UCSD
campus will come alive with the sights and sounds of Slam\Text, an inter-
disciplinary festival sponsored by the Center for Research in Computing &
the Arts (CRCA), the UCSD InterArts Consortium, the New Writing Series,
the Division of Arts & Humanities, the Council of Provosts, and the Visual Arts,
Literature, and Music departments.
Such international notables as Quebecois poet Nicole Brossard and San
Francisco-based poet Michael McClure, accompanied by Ray Manzarek,
keyboard player for The Doors, will join university notables Quincy Troupe and
Jerome Rothenberg (performing with contrabassist Bertram Turetzky) for several
evenings of poetry readings, live video performance, and text/music collaborations.
The three day festival will encompass the following performances and presentations:
THURSDAY, MAY 2, 1996 -- 7 p.m. An evening of student performances
and presentations in the Visual Arts Facility
Performance Space, Russell Lane.
FRIDAY, MAY 3, 1996 -- 4:00 p.m. Canadian poet, novelist and essayist,
Nicole Brossard will present a poetry and prose reading
in the Visual Arts Facility Performance Space.
FRIDAY, MAY 3, 1996 -- 7:00 p.m. at the Center for Research in
Computing & the Arts (CRCA), 408 University Center:
Thomas Allen Harris - live video performance
Nicole Brossard - reading
Kamau Daa'ood/James Newton - text and music
Stephanie Heyl - reading
Eugene B. Redmond - poet/bluesician
SATURDAY, MAY 4, 1996 -- 1-3 p.m. at Erickson Hall, B210
Mandeville Center:
Stan Douglas will present a lecture and his work "Pursuit,
Fear, Catastrophe: Ruskin BC" for film, music and technology.
SATURDAY, MAY 4, 1996 -- 7:00 p.m.at CRCA, 408 University Center:
Michael McClure/Ray Manzarek - text and music
Genny Lim - poetry reading
Jerome Rothenberg/Bert Turetzky - text and music
Harumi Makino/Wadada Leo Smith w/the UCSD Creative
Ensemble - text and music
Quincy Troupe/Scott Walton - text and music
Raul Ferrera-Balanquet - multimedia performance
-------------------------------------------------------------
-
All events are FREE and open to the public.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 13:11:01 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Oppen's magazine publishings etc.
Daniel, Ron, Fred, Alan, Rachel, and Mike Heller (via backchannel),
I can't thank you enough for being so forthcoming--and so quickly, which is
good since i'm trying to put something together for Orono and UCSD may
take some time getting me the stuff there (and other libraries) though
I've already put in the request.
(Hey I forgot to thank David too!)
Best wishes to all,
Burt
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 12:27:21 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Oppen pubs --
In-Reply-To: <199604240411.AAA19558@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
Like David, I am separted from my copies of Oppen bibliographies -- but
the copyright notices on _The Materials_ indicate some of the poems had
been in Mass. review, Poetry and S.F. Review
copyright page for _This in Which_ indicates poems had been in New Yorker
(no kidding!), Poetry, The Nation and Paris Review -- _This_ idenitifes
which poems were where, but the earlier book, which is probably yr real
interest given the original question, does not -- both books were joint
New Directions / San Fra. Review publications -- Yr Library shd have
that _Paideuma_ with the icomplete bib in the back -- and then you can
probably get SF Rev. xerox pages thru interlib. loan --
(If you're one of those who wants to own the actual ed., try Moe's books
in Berkeley -- they might be able to lay hands on old SF Reviews for a
price)X
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 16:18:02 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David McAleavey <dmca@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Oppen pubs --
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960424122146.2225D-100000@athens>
Apologies in advance for continuing this on the list -- but there seem to
be several people interested in these particulars.
The _Paideuma_ bibliography shows: in _Massachusetts Review_ (3, 2, Winter
1962), p. 348, "The Undertaking in New Jersey."
In _San Francisco Review_, as Fred M. said: 1, 7, (1960), pp. 72-3,
"Antique," "Debt," and "Monument." [This "Monument," which has not been
collected into book form, is also not the same poem as the one with the
same title published in _This in Which_.]
In _Poetry_, 95, 4 (Jan. 1960), pp. 237-41: "Birthplace: New Rochelle,"
"The Source," "Myself I Sing,' "Part of the Forest, "The Biblical Tree."
Both "Myself I Sing" and "Part of the Forest" appear in slightly
different versions when published in _The Materials_; and "The Biblical
Tree" has not been collected into book form, so far as I know.
In _Poetry_, 99, 6, Mar. 1962, pp. 371-2: "Travelogue," "Froma
Photograph," and "Squall" (all in _The Materials_).
A magazine called _Thin Line_, out of Ann Arbor, published in its first
number, in 1962, "The Mayan Ground," although that work appears, does it
not, in _This in Which_.
That's all the info I have on works published by Oppen between 1958 and 1962.
-- David McAleavey
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 16:32:31 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Stroffolino <LS0796@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: looking for liz brennan...
Does anybody in the Bay Area know how I may get in touch with
a poet who moved there around november, Liz Brennan. She keeps sending
me postcards with no return address and asks me to write back....
Anyway, I don't know if Leslie Scalapino is on this list anymore,
but Liz was a student of hers, and also she mentioned she met a JOHN
NOTO out there, maybe Killian/Bellamy or Steve Carll can help out...
Well, here's a poem of hers (though I wouldn't call it characteristic--
for she seems to work more often in non-lyric, more long lined
sentence type modes--but it is one of the newest things she's sent):
DRY WASH
Such a democracy cannot
improve these roads
where crude white
crosses mark the sites
of fatal accidents caused
by a creature flying by
at the speed of a flood.
Is this the product
that everyone is going to want?
Suich a shock, to hear
God's voice speaking
English in this parched
yawn of a doubt where anyone
and everything else may be faith
slipping and laughing along
the fifteen-mile length of throat.
Preoccupation with a lack
of preoccupation
brings us full-wobbly-circle
back to the lure of lost
treasure's vast rose
blooming away trust.
Hardly enough elevation
to cast a shadow
or float a cloud.
Once-towns dwindled
to three chimneys and a coyote.
Dark gaps of the forsaken
left to lizards
are now entrances
to my open eardrum. (typo above, "suich")
------
Anyway, any help locating said poe would be appreciated. Chris S.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 18:03:31 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Poetry City April 25
POETRY CITY at Teachers & Writers Collaborative
April 25, 6:30 p.m.
5 Union Square West, NYC
Gillian McCain and Steve Malmude
Gillian McCain lives in New York, down in Tribeca these days. She's the
author of two books of poetry: _Upside Down City_ and _An Apparition of the
Late Tilt_. Her poems have appeared in Arshile, Lingo, and The World. From
1994-1995 she was the editor of the Poetry Project Newsletter, and before
that she was program assistant at the Poetry Project. _Somebody Kill Me: An
Oral History of Punk Rock_, co-edited with Legs McNeil, will be available
from Grove Press on June 1.
Steve Malmude lives on St. Marks Place. His first book of poems, _Catting_,
was published by Larry Fagin's Adventures in Poetry. His poems have
appeared in Sun, The World, O-blek, and Lingo. In the early 70s, he taught
workshops at the Poetry Project at St Marks Church. His third book, _I Got
to Know_, will be available from Skylab Books on June 1.
[Readings at Poetry City in the month of April (National Poetry Month! Go
buy some books of poetry) are sponsored by Johnny Walker Black.]
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 20:03:57 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Eryque Gleason <eryque@ACMENET.NET>
Subject: Re: lesbo premonitions
>community. it was also good to see some erotic gay male stuff...& timothy
>liu, if you're still out there, beautiful as always. em
is timothy liu related to eric liu, editor of NEXT, a collection of essays
that just happens to be sitting next to me?
eryque
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 21:26:49 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Bob Holman <Nuyopoman@AOL.COM>
Subject: USOP
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: tribes@interport.net (Steve Cannon)
To: Nuyopoman@aol.com
Date: 96-04-24 09:52:00 EDT
listen buster STEVE CANNON, DIRECTOR. I am the only one allowed to treat
him as a prop. Renee McManus office dominatrix/ managing editor Tribes
magazine
>
>Sunday, May 19, 1996 5pm-7pm
>Tribes Benefit
>
>THE UNITED STATES OF POETRY
>See poets videoized and put the creators on the hotseat
>Josh Blum and Bob Holman will answer
>
>@ Tribes Gallery, Steve Cannon, Prop.
>285 East Third Street
>
>& visit the USOP website:
>
>http://www.iguide.com/music/poetry
>
>
>
>
TRIBES:
tribes@interport.net
Home page : http://interport.net/~tribes/
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 18:44:06 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: Re: Live from the Duncan Conference
Dear Loss, hope you continue your report on the Duncan Conference. What
happened, and why? Please post full details on the event to this list, and
then back channel me with what everyone was wearing, etc. Wish I had been
there but if you were that's the next best thing. -Kevin Killian
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 21:46:43 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Anne Tardos <tarmac@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Steve McCaffery's new address?
Hi Charles,
Something I sent to Steve McCaffery to 185 Ontario Street in Kingston,
Ont, came back as "moved." If you have his current address, could you
please e it to me?
Thanks and love,
Anne
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 20:32:05 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: Help w/Ginsberg Archive
Can anybody help this guy?
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 12:03:44 -0400
>Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
>Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
>From: Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
>Subject: Help w/Ginsberg Archive
>To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM>
>Status: U
>
>(I don't think my first message made it to the list. If it did, sorry
>for the duplication.)
>
>Has anyone on the list been to the Ginsberg archive at Stanford?
>
>Next week I will be doing research at the archive for my dissertation.
>I would love to hear from anyone who's been there--anything about your
>experiences with the material, and especially your sense of the
>strengths of the collection. At this point in my research, I'm most
>interested in source material from the 1950s and early 1960s--what he
>read, how he read (especially biblical and Gnostic texts)--and tracing
>this material through his longer poems. I'm also interested in his work
>with alternative presses, and how this work contextualizes the poetry.
>
>I've already planned with the library a look at the draft manuscripts of
>*Howl* and *Kaddish*--and the journal material that comes to bear on
>those poems. Right now I'm putting together a list of selected
>correspondence. I would love more information from folks on the list
>who have been there, or who know people who have worked with the
>collection. Feel free to e-mail privately if you want. Thanks.
>
>Tony Trigilio
>Northeastern University
>Boston, MA
>atrigili@lynx.neu.edu
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 21:00:22 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: mikl-em <mike@KID-LINEAR.TAYLOR.ORG>
Subject: kong
maria,
> what's a bleach bottle ant farm and is it worth my while to start one?
well, actually it is a bleach bottle PIG farm. "Ann Kong's World Famous
Bleach Bottle Pig Farm" at 2072 San Pablo in Berkeley--that's just about
three blocks south of SPD.
it's a most fine restaurant-cafe' that I've had the pleasure to frequent,
never knowing the poetic connexion. Bleach bottles modified to look like
pigz iz the motif, don't ya kno. and also real good home-frize.
...at least I haven't Seen any ants. mikl.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 00:56:40 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tim Wood <twood@CONNECT.NET>
Subject: A Prayer for our times,,,
This passed through the computer system where I work. While it is not
specifically poetry... there seems to be interest in the political among
many on this list, so for those of an interest, here it is....
> Author: Trish Lockhart Composed: 04/10 01:43 PM
>
> Subject:
>
> Reply: Thoughts on God
>
> This is a lovely little prayer that should really make you think.
>
> NOTE: The following is a prayer, intended to be between me and the
> Creator, so you may not want to read any further.
>
> Dear God, Jehovah, Allah:
>
> In these trying times, I pray for understanding of a nation and world
> that grows darker and colder by the day; a people who, even in your
> name(s), continue to preach separation, hatred and vengeance; and a
> government that often doesn't care about most of us, but still wants
> to tell us how and where to pray.
>
> Please help me comprehend those who tell me that, in order to be
> heard, a prayer in a schoolroom must be spoken aloud and be witnessed
> by others.
>
> It is always puzzling when those who claim to know you best obviously
> fail to realize that you always know our hearts and minds, and that
> you are not hearing-impaired.
>
> They don't seem to know that there are thousands of prayers in public
> schools every day, and no one is aware of them except you and those
> praying. Have these people forgotten your omnipotent and omnipresent
> powers?
>
> I want to worship you willingly and in my own way, not at a specified
> "moment" of prayer or silence or a designated place. I don't want to
> be obligated to do it, either, for surely if I'm ordered to bow to you
> it is no different than the children of Israel being ordered to bow
> before Baal.
>
> Please let me know if I'm wrong in thinking that no one can truly
> legislate prayer. Tell me if I'm mistaken when I refuse to believe
> that the new high priests of the land, parading around in their
> new-found glory, are not the only keepers of the faith.
>
> God, the newly elected leaders of the country tell us that most of our
> recent problems are because you were kicked out of school in 1962,
> once again showing what little regard they have for you. Don't these
> esteemed officials know that you have never been a dropout or a
> delinquent and, besides, no one is tough enough to kick you out of any
> place where there is someone who wants and needs you?
>
> Allah, forgive me if I'm being too judgmental of these people, but it
> is sickening to see you used as part of a political agenda. It's a
> disgusting thought that our children's communication with you will be
> at the center of a fight by politicians next year who refuse to
> recognize that they have no control over the matter.
>
> Jehovah, remind us that not all prayers are accepted by you, and that
> the answer to some prayers is "No."
>
> As I offer this petition, asking for a "kinder and gentler" nation, I
> trust you will receive it and answer affirmatively.
>
> I pray this prayer in the name of all that is good and just.
>
> Amen.
>
in space no one can hear you scream
in Dallas no one cares...
______________________________________________________________________________
Check out the Voices new poetry website at http://www.connect.net/twood/
the Word, Dallas' monthly arts guide: http://www/connect.net/twood/word.html
poetry & video poetry ---- graphic design & database development
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 03:50:04 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Bleach Bottle Pig Farm
I'm more of a Cafe Fanny's type myself but my kids have definitely been
inspired by Ann Kong's pig farm and have made some bleach bottle pigs
themselves. Definitely a "thing to do" (I've forgotten the name of that
cafe -- the Tea Spot? -- but it's a great oldfashioned one in the
tradition of the best from the 60s. When I left Berkeley, it wasn't
open all hours, but that was the only limitation....
But what IS the connection to poetry here?
Ron Silliman
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 09:37:16 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kenneth Goldsmith <kgolds@PANIX.COM>
Subject: New New Music URL's of interest
Comments: To: gab@wfmu.org
Hi folks,
Thought these two new New Music Links would be of interest to persons on
this list:
Lovely Music:
http://www.lovely.com
Cunieform & Wayside Music:
http://members.aol.com/Cuneiform2/cuneiform.html
================================================================
Kenneth Goldsmith
kgolds@panix.com
kennyg@wfmu.org
kgoldsmith@hardpress.com
v. 212-260-4081
work: http://wfmu.org/~kennyg/Ubu/index.html
play: http://wfmu.org/~kennyg
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 09:03:20 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.ACC.IIT.EDU>
Subject: kunitz...
anybody out there gonna be at the stanley kunitz reading-shindig at nyu
tonight?... hear tell from npr he's reading with many others---olds,
creeley, kinnell, others... or at least that's how i heard it... be nice if
we had, as we've had, reporters-on-the-spot...
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 10:16:09 PDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: chris daniels <kunos@LANMINDS.COM>
Subject: FW: Bleach Bottle Pig Farm
--- On Thu, 25 Apr 1996 03:50:04 -0700 Ron Silliman
<rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM> wrote:
>I'm more of a Cafe Fanny's type myself but my kids have definitely been
>inspired by Ann Kong's pig farm and have made some bleach bottle pigs
>themselves. Definitely a "thing to do" (I've forgotten the name of that
>cafe -- the Tea Spot? -- but it's a great oldfashioned one in the
>tradition of the best from the 60s. When I left Berkeley, it wasn't
>open all hours, but that was the only limitation....
>
>But what IS the connection to poetry here?
>
>Ron Silliman
>
yes, it is "the tea spot"
perhaps the connection is in the sweet human ability to love such a
thing as a bleach bottle pig --- but i am speaking entirely of myself
later
-------------------------------------
christopher daniels <kunos@lanminds.com> 4.25.96 10:16:10 am
q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they
said anything goes?"
--- charles wuorinen
a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow."
--- george clinton
snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa
voice: 510.524.5972
http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 14:07:03 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: self as bleach
Just picked up Michael Gottlieb's _The River Road_ (Potes und Poets 35,
$10) and thought I should mention it. It's only a matter of time before he
crosses over as _our Paul Muldoon_. (>]*_compliment_*[<) --Jordan
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 17:39:43 -1000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Situation in the Middle East: An account (fwd)
Pretty bad... Gab.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> Hi.
>>
>> Firas is in the states. I will hopefully be in the states around
>> the 1st week of July to join a research program.
>>
>> This is the situation:
>>
>> We are ready to evacuate
>> immediately, I think!!! Things here are NOT improving. I do not know
>> how much longer we can communicate - be it thru e-mail or phone. The
>> Israeli's are shelling nothing but civilian targets. They hit not a
>> single Hizbullah target. The sea ports are closed because of Israeli
>> gunboats warding off ships!! They shot three of the power stations,
>> rendering one of them totally nonfunctional. According to the new, one
>> of them has attained damages worth 3 millions USDs. They are also
>> shooting the telephone switchboards. They have gunned one of the main
>> ones, and off and on they have destroyed major telephone cables around
>> the country. I know that at least 18000 phones are out! Things are
>> really NOT optimistic here. Schools have been shut down for at least
>> one more week. I do not know if my uni will open. Please distribute
>> this message please to as many people as you can; it is important that
>> they see the truth.
>>
>>
>> Today..... they attacked a UN center. It was a bomb shelter.
>> They massacred every soul in there - mentally and physically. Hundreds
>> of armless, helpless, hungry people were hiding in two tents. The
>> Israeli's attacked the base. People started fleeing into the shelters,
>> but they did not make it on time. The seen was a giagantic shish kabab
>> scene!!!! Bodies were charcoaled.... I actually saw some guts,
>> intestines, and other gross things..... it was an open anatomy class,
>> for heaven's sake.... my girlfriend burst into tears... so did my
>> mom!!! Who is the attacker here? A m**********r behind a tank or a
>> child who is just looking for food and shelter???? The folks from the
>> south are all packed in schools in Beirut. Things are not sanitary at
>> all. Diseases are beginning to spread! For God's sake who is the
>> aggressor!?!?!? They showed us how the Israelis take a moment of
>> silence for the massacre of the Jews in Germany!!!!!! What is this....
>> some kind of avenge?!?! We have to pay for it??!? Half a million
>> people were forced out of their homes because their presence would
>> threaten the heavily armed army of Israel..... the tanks are
>> vulnerable to an attack from young children!!! Children are
>> lethal...... we should abolish them....eh?????? Man... the situation
>> is not improving. What is the world after... destroying Lebanon's new
>> infrastructure because it could beat Israel's economy in a few
>> years???? Is it after taking away the Arab's arsenal and money?? If
>> Syria were to move, the American Air Force and the Israeli Air Force
>> would take it as an attack and a breach of peace!!!!!!! They take our
>> land.... and call us aggressors. They say that if we stop attacking
>> them with a few guerilla soldiers, they would leave..... is this
>> preposterous or what??? You occupy my house and I ask to leave, but
>> you refuse to because I am hitting you?!??!? Well..... leave my house
>> and I will not attack you. You just ought to see the brains of 3 day
>> old splattered all over the blanket!!! His head lost its top!!!!
>> Literally!!!! The 3-day-old had no top to his head.... his brains
>> were over the blanker and on the floor. They wiped out 2 families of
>> 12 people in one building...... their argument.... Hizbullah fired a
>> Katyusha from that area..... b******t!!!! Since the beginning of the
>> attacks, the Israeli army has hit nothing.... NOTHING... but civilian
>> targets..... An ambulance with 4 children and old folks was hit by a
>> rocket from a plane.... their excuse: The driver was Hizbullah.....
>> now give me a break!!!!!! WE ARE THE KILLERS....WE OWN THE HI-TECH
>> STUFF..... For God's sake, we do not even have an airforce!!!!!!! We
>> have one bloody f***** jet.... just one!!!!!!!!!
>>
>> Tomorrow morning I am taking my car to all the near grocery stores
>> to buy as much baby milk as the car can carry and distribute it all to
>> the schools that have lactating children or children in need of milk.
>> Our academic year has been disrupted because the southerners have been
>> placed in schools.
>>
>> If anyone wants the true scenes, please contact me and I will do
>> my best to send a copy.
>>
>> I have two INTERNET addresses:
>>
>> ziad-g@beirut.com
>> aboudi@bignet.com.lb
>>
>>
>> I am now using the aboudi one. Please send your messages to both.
>>
>> Take care.
>> Aboudi
%%% overflow headers %%%
To: jokelist -- HAIDERI ABBAS IBRAHIM <abba@falcon.cc.ukans.edu>,
Alan Jasanoff <apjasan@husc.harvard.edu>,
Amlan Majumdar <majumdar@ee.Princeton.EDU>,
Ananya Das <DAS@Frodo.MGH.Harvard.EDU>,
Aparna U Datey <adatey@MIT.EDU>,
Sonit Bafna <sonit.bafna@arch.gatech.edu>,
Dipankar Mukherjee <u2165169@keystone.arch.unsw.EDU.AU>,
Debdutta Ganguly <ddg@iddis.com>,
Shubhagato Dasgupta <ucfusda@ucl.ac.uk>,
Geeta Cowlagi <COWLAGG9199@uni.edu>,
Nagaraja Harshadeep <harshad@husc.harvard.edu>,
"Muhammad I. Muzaffar" <Muzaffar@Princeton.EDU>,
Jagan Arvind Shah <jas150@columbia.edu>,
"Sanjay M. Kewlani" <smk2312@hertz.njit.edu>,
Manish Kothari <manish@radius.mae.cornell.edu>,
KRISHNAN <krishnan@arnold.Princeton.EDU>,
Manu Prithvish Sobti <Manu.P.Sobti-1@tc.umn.edu>,
"Maulik K. Parikh" <mkparikh@phoenix.Princeton.EDU>,
Mausami Bhatt <mausami@unm.edu>,
Meghana Parikh <tonyc@shellx.best.com>,
Minakshi Maniben <minas@MIT.EDU>,
Niraj Anand <Niraj_Anand@ccm.al.intel.com>,
Partho Dutta <partho@MIT.EDU>, Pratap Talwar <Prtalwar@aol.com>,
Rahul Kamath <rkamath@ag-inc.com>, Ritu Bhatt <rb34@cornell.edu>,
Sandeep Dhar <scdhar@Princeton.EDU>,
Sanjoy Dutta <dutta@itsa.ucsf.edu>,
Sapna Mehta <u2165189@keystone.arch.unsw.EDU.AU>,
Satish K Kolluri <kolluri@comm.umass.edu>,
Tarun Khanna <TKHANNA@hbs.harvard.edu>,
Vaishali Patel <vpatel@acnet.pratt.edu>,
Vikramaditya Prakash <Vikram@asu.edu>,
Vivek Agrawal <vivek@world.std.com>,
jokeuro -- Hongyang Suh <hongsuh@Princeton.EDU>,
"John S. Coburn" <socrates@user1.channel1.com>,
LYDELL KING <gsd95ljk@venus.gsd.harvard.edu>,
John MacDougall <macdougl@Princeton.EDU>,
Kamal Khouri <kskhouri@Princeton.EDU>,
Kristine Latta <kelatta@Princeton.EDU>,
Lisa Wynn <lisawynn@Princeton.EDU>,
Molly Accola <Molly_Ann_Accola@warren.med.harvard.edu>,
"Monica V. Bhattacharyya" <monicab@phoenix.Princeton.EDU>,
"Morgan J. Pitelka" <mpitelka@phoenix.Princeton.EDU>,
Patti Ponzoli <ponzoli@pucc.Princeton.EDU>,
[Name removed],
Susan Uhm <susanuhm@Princeton.EDU>,
poco <postcolonial@jefferson.village.virginia.edu>
%%% end overflow headers %%%
--- from list postcolonial@lists.village.virginia.edu ---
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 23:48:06 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: klobucar <klobucar@UNIXG.UBC.CA>
Subject: Re: Live INTERNET READING
JUST A LITTLE OLE REMINDER:
If you're having a tv party tonight, cancel it, return your videos, and set
yourself down in front of that other tube: your Mac or PC. At 4:00 PST,
new poems from Vancouver are free to be heard in this new medium. Tell
your friends. Ask for it by name. Accept no substitutes.
***********************************
Deanna Ferguson, Michael Turner, Dorothy Trujillo Lusk, and
Jeff Derksen
April 26th : Friday : 4 -5:30 pm (PST)
------------------------------------------------------
Physical Location: Vancouver Film School, 420 Homer St., Vancouver B.C.
WWW Location: http://www.wimsey.com/~ksw/internet.htm
------------------------------------------------------
The Kootenay School of Writing, in conjunction
with the Vancouver Film School and Axion Internet is pleased to
announce our first broadcast of a reading over the Internet using
RealAudio(TM) technology.
On APRIL 26th at 4:00 pm Pacific Standard Time we will be broadcasting
a pre-recorded reading by Vancouver writers Deanna Ferguson and Michael
Turner (info on that event) and a live reading by Vancouver writers
Dorothy Trujillo Lusk and Jeff Derksen. Real Audio capability graciously
supplied by Axion Internet.
REQUIREMENTS:
o 486 class or higher PC / 68000 class Mac / Unix based machines,
with capability to play sound files.
o NETSCAPE 1.1+ (The event will be optimized for Netscape 2.0)
o a Real Audio Player for your computer.
WHERE CAN I FIND THESE ?:
o Computers : at your local computer store...
o Netscape 1.1+ can be found at the Netscape
http://home.netscape.com
o Real Audio Player can be found at the Real Audio site at
http://www.realaudio.com/products/player.html
DOROTHY TRUJILLO LUSK has given readings across Canada and NYC. Her most
recent book _Redactive_ was published by Talonbooks in 1990. Her Tsunami
Editions chapbook _Oral Tragedy_ was Shortlisted in the bpNichol Memorial
Chapbook contest in 1989. Her latest work, _Volume Delays_ is forthcoming
from Sprang Texts.
JEFF DERKSEN, founding member of the Kootenay School of Writing and past
editor of _Writing_ magazine, now lives in Calgary where he is completing
his doctoral studies at the University of Calgary. Derksen's first book,
_Down Time_ won the Dorothy Livesay Poetry Award at the 1991 B.C. Book
Prizes. His second book _Dwell_ was published by Talonbooks in 1993.
DEANNA FERGUSON lives in Vancouver, B.C. where she is a publisher of
Tsunami Editions and a co-editor of BOO Magazine. Books include The
Relative Minor, (Tsunami Editions, 1993), Link Fantasy, with Stan
Douglas, 1988 and Will Tear Us, 1987. Recent work appears in The
Gertrude Stein Awards in Innovative Amercian Poetry, (Sun & Moon Press)
and Raddle Moon 14.
MICHAEL TURNER is the author of Kingsway (Arsenal Pulp Press), Company
Town (Arsenal) and Hard Core Logo (Arsenal). Company Town was
shortlisted for the Dorothy Livesay Poetry Prize. His second book, Hard
Core Logo, has been adapted to radio and stage, and will be a feature
film directed by Bruce McDonald (Highway 61, Dance Me Outside). He is
also the founder of the Reading Railroad, a popular Vancouver reading
series.
*******************************************************
FOR MORE INFORMATION CONTACT:
ANDREW KLOBUCAR -- klobucar@unixg.ubc.ca
DAVE AYRE -- David_Ayre@mindlink.bc.ca
*******************************************************
Visit Our Web site ! ------> http://www.wimsey.com/~ksw
Join our Email mailing list ! --> http://www.wimsey.com/~ksw/maillist.htm
The Kootenay School of Writing
ksw@wimsey.com
(604) 688 6001
112 WEST HASTINGS
v6b 2g8
Canada
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 07:08:21 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Michael W. Waugh" <MW17318@SWT.EDU>
Organization: Southwest Texas State University
Subject: Text as Image (painting programs)
I am trying to find an MFA painting program that offers a focus in using
words/text as image. I know that the Art Institute of Chicago offers such
cross-art (trans-art?) opportunities; it has just started a writing program
(MFA) and encourages cross-fertilization between the visual and language arts.
But I'd like to find out about other programs.
You, dear reader, may wish to alert me to schools who have faculty who are both
visual and language artists (hmmm..that isn't right), I mean--who have persons
on their faculty who combine visual and language arts, especially painting and
poetry.
I already have an MFA in writing, so I am most interested in programs that I
cound enter on the painting side. Am I being metaphorical? Another question.
Perhaps.
I assume that you will want to send your replies to me directly. But if others
are interested, others may wish to post a note saying so.
Devotedly,
Michael Waugh
MW17318@academia.swt.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:11:22 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rachel Blau DuPlessis <RDUPLESS@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
Organization: TEMPLE UNIVERSITY
Subject: Re: Oppen's magazine publishings etc.
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 24 Apr 1996 13:11:01 EST from
<kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
hi again; I checked Oppen letters more carefully after I (belatedly)
responded a few days ago. Anyway, RE: Bronk, the note on p 381 tells me
that Oppen first wrote to Bronk on June 24, 1962. (I couldn't believe
that I hadn't mentioned it somewhere in the book!). ONWARD to Orono. RBD
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 08:38:48 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest -
In-Reply-To: <199604260410.AAA20292@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
has there been a problem with this list lately? seem to be messages not
getting in, but not returning either -- or is this a "digest" problem?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 15:45:17 CST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Baratier <dave.baratier@MOSBY.COM>
Subject: re; allegory, faith, etcetera
Hey Jordan, Jordan Davis!
Thaniks. I was thinking of allegory as a literary representation of a
"real" instance or situation which falsely or superficially
illustrates a further understanding of the item it is being placed in
parallel with. In the Mallarmean sense, where any symbolic
representation seems correct because of its placement within the said.
How a fortune teller vaguely explains palms.
"How in the near future, advances in freeze frame technology
will make it possible for us to relax."
A fleeting sense of the olde allegorie.
Be well.
David Baratier
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 13:50:05 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: main <feathers@U.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: re; allegory, faith, etcetera
In-Reply-To: <9603268305.AA830558200@smtp-gw.mosby.com>
On Fri, 26 Apr 1996, David Baratier wrote:
> Hey Jordan, Jordan Davis!
>
> Thaniks. I was thinking of allegory as a literary representation of a
> "real" instance or situation which falsely or superficially
> illustrates a further understanding of the item it is being placed in
> parallel with. In the Mallarmean sense, where any symbolic
> representation seems correct because of its placement within the said.
> How a fortune teller vaguely explains palms.
> "How in the near future, advances in freeze frame technology
> will make it possible for us to relax."
> A fleeting sense of the olde allegorie.
>
> Be well.
>
> David Baratier
>
or: replace "allegory" w "idea"
all ideas, allegory
?
dan featherston
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 17:51:42 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: allegory, faith, neutrality, poetry
Back atcha, Dave!
You mean that to explain certain subtleties or difficulties of a situation
one may need recourse to an account of another subtle and/or
difficult-to-locate-oneself-in-the-midst-of situation? As a species of
relief?
A way to say, as Reagan did, let me put this another way?
A man and his dog were walking across the crescent of a park near where I live.
There was a pick-up soccer game going on. People were bicycling around,
sometimes coming very close to the people sitting on the benches on the
edge of the crescent. A woman just learning to use roller blades came
really close to where I was sitting. Someone, her friend apparently,
grabbed her and whirled her round, demonstrating how to stop.
I was sitting there writing something in my notebook. Now I'm typing to
you, and the rain is falling on the ventilator across the way. Suds are
rising on the ventilator. At the same time, so to speak, you're reading
this.
Isn't that the basis for compassion, being in the same place? Compassion or
rage? Aren't those instances of co-incidence, occupying the same space, at
the instant they come into perception, funny and undetermined.
I'm just wondering, is it decent of allegory to make such a claim on us?
And the project of 'resistance'--allegory against allegory--is that an
attempt to claim those coincidences for being qua being? Wow, that doesn't
make much sense. Let me try again. Would you enjoy reading a kind of poetry
that preserved the undetermined quality of events, or would you prefer
poetry that includes all the possible interpretations and claims on events
(subjectivity, they used to call it). One that talks about identity or
posits a personality.
You know, I'm not sure I know which kinds of poetries those are. And of
course, it may be that my question ('Would you enjoy reading') doesn't make
any sense. Last night at Poetry City, Steve Levine countered the
proposition that one gives a reading with the intention of being attractive
to an audience with the proposition that one gives a reading because
someone has asked one to read. It was a pleasant neutrality to discover at
the Cedar.
It may be best to read the words without imagining things. Or, one may
choose to read the words for what they say. It occurs to me from time to
time that the atomic fact (if you'll forgive me that mannerism) of this
list is the assumption that poetry is words, more or less, and the ranges
of meaning that any given group of words called a poem can have *nowadays*
depend on how those words are enregistered--that is, what one knows about
the *poet*. I don't know if this was always the case. In the interview
between John Ashbery and Kenneth Koch, Koch tries to establish the meaning
of certain disjunct lines that both of them had written. I'm not sure one
would be inclined now to read examples of 'high disjunction' with a strong
will to meaning leading one along.
The state of things right now: a rowdy poet is likely to produce what are
taken to be rowdy poems; a shy, intense poet will seem to produce mainly
shy, intense poems, etc. This 'affect' form of interpretation that I have
uncommittedly practiced in my reading reports, it will be objected, is
circular (and essentializing); one finds exactly what one puts there.
That's journalism for you. How much of literary criticism is
journalism--travel writing, sports writing--and how much of it is the
assembly of meaning, or rather, a flux-model (red dye in the stream?) of
the process of meaning?
I would argue that the social life of poets is what is at issue in the
development of schools, and the claiming of renaissances, critical
revivals, etc. But all that is bonus to the production of meaning. Allegory
looks from here like an attempt to reroute the discussion back towards
meaning and away from the essentializing discourse wheeze hack cough of
group formation. It also looks like it will be at best a controversial and
rejected attempt. Too easily pushed over. Coinciding with this pushing is
the need to get to the truth of the situation. Which is what. Something
like 'nobody knows' but without the spookiness; maybe it's more like 'here
we are,' 'here we go,' or, if you prefer, 'here it is.'
All best, and you be well too,
Jordan
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 19:02:05 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ken Norris <Ken_Norris@VOYAGER.UMERES.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 24 Apr 1996 to 25 Apr 1996
SOMEWHERE ACROSS THE BORDER, a Canadian Interactive Poetry Magazine, is
now available for viewing at
www.letelier.com/sab/sab.html
Ken Norris
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 00:28:24 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Eryque Gleason <eryque@ACMENET.NET>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest -
I've occasionally been receiving fragments of messages, rather than the
whole shabang. Anyone else having that problem?
It seems that every other time someone posts a poem to the list, i get just
a verse or two, nothing else. Not even any header info (who sent it when),
just a message with no subject from ????@????. Kinda interesting now, but
the first time it happened, the first few lines were rather biting and i
thought i'd been attacked. This completely shocked me, i was recently
given the title "world's most lovable guy" by someone that was only half
tipsy (her normal state). ~Eryque
At 8:38 AM 4/26/96 -0700, Aldon L. Nielsen wrote:
>has there been a problem with this list lately? seem to be messages not
>getting in, but not returning either -- or is this a "digest" problem?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 22:28:35 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM>
Subject: Re: poetry and audience in the nation
Comments: cc: LS0796@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU
> Herb Levy--
> although my poetry pretty much stays GLUED to the LEFT(ist) margin
> in a way that is (ironically?) considered RIGHTest,
> how do you know that many of my notes on the poetics list---
> (someone--i forget who--once remarked on their "ziggeraut" quality)--
> are not intentional in the spirit of WCW's "three step" late style...
> ?
Sorry to be late getting back on this crucial detail, Chris, I was in
historic Kingston, NY & didn't have a chance to get back into to telnet
from there. I'm back in Seattle again (out where a friend is a friend).
I think your posts are not entirely visually in your control because you
periodically complain about the process of writing them.
If this is an intentional stylistic trope on your part, it's a good one.
Bests
Herb
Herb Levy
herb@eskimo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 10:29:47 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jeremy F Green <jfg@U.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Macsweeney / Cambridge Poetry Conference
In-Reply-To: <828562534.7923.0@slang.demon.co.uk>
to u.k. types--
Any chance of a report on the Cambridge Poetry Conference going on this
weekend?
Jeremy Green
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 15:15:00 PDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Ayre <david_ayre@MINDLINK.BC.CA>
Subject: Vancouver writers/Real Audio
Hello all.
On April 26, at 4:00 we tried to do something. Something new. As with all
new things. Sometimes they don't work. This didn't.
We were trying to broadcast two pre-recorded readings by Deanna Ferguson and
Michael Turner and two live readings by Jeff Derksen and Dorothy Trujillo
Lusk using RealAudio (free internet software that allows one to here audio
files instantly as soon as they are activated (assuming certain hardware
requirements are fulfilled)). It turned out that we didn't get the audio
hook up until after 3/4 of the event was over. It was an extremley
apologetic afternnon. BUT WAIT, some good did come of all this unhappening !
The pre-recorded readings of DEANNA FERGUSON(approx 20 minutes) and MICHAEL
TURNER (approx 16 minutes) are now up and available for listening
(accompanied by a timed visual presentation). Both readings are extremely
strong in delivery. Deanna is reading two new works, STILL LIFE WITH THE LAW
is a masterful example in poetic/comedic delivery a la the lost language
poet Lenny Bruce & ROUGH BUSH, which i believe, for all you Meow Press fans,
will be available in printed form very soon.... Michael is reading
selections from his newest book KINGSWAY, a series of lane changing poetic
narratives that cruise through the yellow lights of the various histories
that surround one of the oldest thoroughfares in Vancouver.
So, if you've got that techno-power use it ! or borrow a friends... Drop by
our web site for information on how to pick the readings up. At this point,
we are not sure how long they will be available... so tune in soon...
http://www.wimsey.com/~ksw/internet.htm
.
.
.
.
"Poetry in gurgling clear RealAudio. It's one of the best ways to use up the
valuable time on your internet account."
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 16:37:27 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: { brad brace } <bbrace@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Uomo che brucia ha Trascrivuto
Man that blazes has Transcribed
_______________________________
Universal closeness of life and the attempt to. circumvent from means of
belong. thing. twenty of the desert. .the radio-place looks for for
frequency. travel. of consequence the creation of art departs is of. in
place of belong. a different kind of belong. regression. he/she/it/you has
surrounded or he/she/it/you has circumvented, he/she/it/you has
circumscribed. from[ [hillscapes]] of the signature. he/she/it/you has
crackled. slipknot of the back of the phase. the middle of in no place. as
is he/she/it /you in any place in in no place, is he/she/it/you them does
he/she/it/you have moved? And the middle of in no place always in any
place. it is terminus in no place of a constellation, ambient
constellation, a terrible constellation, of in any place. the half of
communication of bulk camps. pens of smoke are a substitute for. clouds in
the sky. in tall in a beautiful,[ cartoons] blue. slant. [ [polyethylene]]
blue, the[ [tarp]] of choice. that would think. big, a momentariness,
communion, freedom and same -trust point out. new structures. that that
extension is the[ [mores]] social. he/she/it/you has built. bunting and
bunting. before erect upright elements create. piece of furniture has
amplified sounds, dogs, sufferings kits, originate from machinery of the
art. one with an air-ladle of the wheel on cop. the sound travels far and
his direction is clear. until to hour people seems to arrive in the three,
four, five, are or more, you/he/she/it with that bring the existing
structures with them. he/she/it/you has forced to reaffirm. some really
horrendous attempts to signature of[ [creativity]],[ [hipness]]. in any
way the more elegant and least structures are most compelling. here where
my structure seems inconsequent. expected anchor for the communion radios
place come on air. Anybody has scrambled up a [tiv=9D] he/she/it/you towers=
.
Presumably that is the broadcast he/she/it/you towers. sounds of
he/she/it/you has registered dogs. sound is really the dominant half out
here. notions of the captive audience and. machinery of the art. Here one
that it is all silver with a pair of fins of the[ [dorsal]] gigantic. it
is the audience this prisoner, a captive audience. some people is the
rangers of Black Rock. any[ [spilled]] he/she/it/you of the fluids has
sucked immediately in the surface of the has crackled[ [playa]].
absorption. absorption. much of the fire is on show, varied toys and
buttock cultural manufactured article,[ [flamingoes]] pink [color]. when
really the sense of structure, a has structured sense of house.
he/she/it/you of an apartment has contained ends desolate soldiers be in
increase the. the 8 foot of the[ [atop]] of the white and black flags
along triangular you/he/she/it silver poles they have a certain resonance,
like he/she/it/you is yellow and black. as he/she/it/you can grabs with
you, as of that that he/she/it/you was can to resurrect. some areas are
able of create dust more when he/she/it/you has crossed of above that
other. Your car could become film white-adherent of chalk, diviner. Has
been worried of my possibly has barred filter of the air. have[
[inadvertently]] left my CB radios on, I/they have worried that that
apparatus of the communication in made he/she/it/you drains my battery of
the car. Change of pace. the models on the floor of the[ [playa]] they
intrigue, the by the surface has split between each he/she/it/you has
circumscribed division it he/she/it/you exists subsequent smaller
you/he/she/it crackle, crazy or formations. He/she/it/you would be
beautiful if that paints has been amplified in this interim communion.
binoculars would interest to bring here. he/she/it/you has provisioned in
that he/she/it/you divides of the[ [playa]], which it is the best dry part
and pact, the part that gives birth to the least dust, the[ [obfuscation]]
least. Really he/she/it/you could not see behind to you when guide across
the[ [playa]], there is correct a following of the white cloud you. twin,
I would like see twin here. Maybe existing correct communion obtains as
big that any kind of social interaction and expressive connection is
impossible he/she/it/you as has to[ [recreate]] some smaller appearance or
I/you/he/she/it expect to that bigger communion in any place where other
and that in any place where other is always a problem. these small radio
does driven machinery interest, does he/she/it/you compress together with
to? aloof horizon that demands staircase. when it is the air of the
physical structure of a similar communion to symbolic infrastructure. What
that does he/she/it/you understand when he/she/it/you finally reflects
completely? Does he/she/it/you become then transportable? When does
he/she/it/you have carried, does he/she/it/you do that is the ambient
physical or structure, does that do understands that that necessarily does
he/she/it/you should mirror his origin? There is a sense at night that
that he/she/it/you has not seen correct some stars like he/she/it/you
could see usually but he/she/it/you sees each individual star, all the
stars. There is implicit terror in that. He is because social structures
fatally obtain big and cripple and improbable. And that because a sense of
can has imparted to those that you/he/she/it refuse extend their social
connections. Those that. that he/she/it/you doesn't want necessarily see
it he/she/it/you has extended[ [indiscriminately]]. And that desires has
reported to the inevitability of a social bigger structure. The desert
plumes. but after a time their pens of the[ [vertically]] of the increase.
I/they am less articulate than the more recent pens and[ [symmetrical]] of
the[ [vertically]], like albeit I/they have mirrored the one or the other
of the horizon on side. The bicycle is certainly the best part I don't
modulate interfering of transport in and about the field, equal more as
that the walk, a mirage or afloat effect of anything moves a fluid manner
in a new accommodation, as the bicycle and his passenger seems to be more
of an image that a substantial being. Art or cultural objects could be
means of begin a subsequent conversation or a[ greasy] of the conversation
he. To what point does he/she/it/you also do much anything does
he/she/it/you become anything? When he does he/she/it/you do touched the
bottom out? Finally, is it people does he/she/it/you have allotted
positions of responsibility/ can primarily I/they as am not piano done
tilt to[ [reinvent]] the system, that their more hour a part of?
He/she/it/you would interest has a series of[ [aerial]] following
photographs exposure like the communion he/she/it/you gradually has grown,
in that that model. Of course anything photographs assumes the center.
You/he/she/it photograph these you/he/she/it dust pens, these dust of the
[ [symmetrical]] he/she/it/you plumes, on film of the tall contrast and
you/he/she/it then turn the m[ [vertically]]. I/you/he/she/it resemble to
[ [soundtracks]] optic a destiny, he/she/it/you would interest see that
that they have played like. Finally, it is the belief that these carriers
are able, after a period of time, from their place of origin. big sound.
the structure requires a certain appointment, a renewal. carriers of the
[[squarish]]. I correct he/she/it/you has known that I in any way would be
inferior to a[ [reenactment]] of the[ [panic]] that I/they have felt when
I have lost the my first car on the beaches of the Pacific Ocean. Was the
best part [habitat]? . Empty space. he/she/it/you has buzzed from a
combatant he/she/it/you utters to buds. see. structural configurations
that he/she/it/you could come on with for these sheets of[ [polyet
hylene]] blue. good projectile study. it is the curtain he/she/it/you
fortifies of poles. like 18 pegs of the metal of the inch. and then bamboo
hollow top fortifies of poles he/she/it/you has put[ [overtop]]. beautiful
fluorescent, bunting, fluorescent o range with a black plaza and a black
circle. there is a hamburger he/she/it/you is in feet, McSatans.
[[millions]] he/she/it/you of souls has served, free cigarette with each
[[burger]]. There is an equitable amount of play on the drum and drummer
boy, no of him very stable or. I beam Free Man that blazes 99.5. disk of
the guest tangles, 25-minute chasms of the time. very animal quilted they
have put get off. Friday hour, according to he/she/it/you to the radio
disposes, the population is in feet to of 600, not also many. breeders
here. I have seen an air-conditioned curtain. the wind really
he/she/it/you takes at night, much the structures have demolished.
He/she/it/you would interest has a kite with he/she/it/you has
battery-motored blinkers on him lift at night. Some[ [rocketry]]. The
plays on the drum he/she/it/you would take an interest in has been used
like a by of establish connections across the space. If there was people
he/she/it/you has sprinkled about the[ [playa]] he/she/it/you answers. to
wheels my bicycle out to the half of communication of bulk puts forward.
And correct far enough out be a piece of an exercise. I have promenaded
across, hi told. He/she/it/you has promenaded back. I was as thirsty when
I/they have returned me have opened the bottles that I had of the frozen
water, and he/she/it/you has drunk all the cold water that had[ [melted]].
there is correct this center of ice in the middle. carriers arrive now,
midday. there you/he/she/it seem to be a big he/she/it/you has converted
bus in the center of field which seems to be the official bus of the Man
that blazes complete with a receiver of the satellite. And all has painted
on. Ties of the cold water. People is carriers of the[ [orbiting]] about
the field. motorcycles. Implicit in my decision where to you/he/she/it
finally induct field it must be a sense of the structure of the [tuta] of
work like an all, which he/she/it/you of varied course like time goes on,
the center stays best abiding part. He/she/it/you would be more
interesting if the field was[ [bipolar]], if he/she/it/you had two
centers. ? campers would resemble to kind of magnetic fields which they
could alternate, a north of the being of the center, a south of the
being,[ [etc]]. . then, the that Black public Rock on the official correct
gazette has arrived. Here an announcement from the Basketball of the Girls
of the high school of the Empire attaches in Gerlach (they sell ice. Their
advertising witticism is, the ice of 'Today that is more that[ [water.']]
correct ice cream) small Interesting bird, kind of he/she/it/you gulfs
like with long accounts and long wings out look for things eat on the
earth. You[ [mistook]] my leftovers of the maroon for things eat. Amazing
number of hexapod out here that I have never seen before. Green dish, kind
of beetle-like bug. Strange. The that Black public Rock on the official
gazette characterizes this communion an interim communion, deliberate/
he/she/it/you has freed autonomous zone. The bigger challenge. Last ice
five days. Once again, really I desire have bought that equipment of the
folding drum. Combatant an other utters to buds. I marvel could do an
extremely long made flag of varied national bunting or[ [thereof]]
he/she/it/you of the parts has sealed with lead together. There is a new
Ennio Morricone he/she/it/you doubles CD he/she/it/you departs, 'Once on a
time in the West.' Electric orange. There are two airplanes of the more
combatant. some has hand-liable he/she/it/you goes in missile cruise, that
they would be completely a show. I like this radio he/she/it/you disposes.
And a really beautiful, advised still varied kind of selection of the
music. He/she/it/you would be beautiful, albeit, instead of have the same
innkeeper and a new guest, the same innkeeper and a new guest, the same
innkeeper and a new guest, there was an innkeeper which in you/he/she/it
turn become the new innkeeper and as on. awful exercise in comprehension.
Do I have[ [inadvertently]] does he/she/it/you have discovered the
double-articulate curtain-pole? . the pretended content is really in the
center. the field has expanded really, hour. You/he/she/it seem to expand
in about clusters. He/she/it/you has clouded of above, cloud really
bouncing he/she/it/you covers. He/she/it/you could see the rain
you/he/she/it line up the aloof hills. The field has changed. There is
more of a cagey sense to him hour. direction look for in. Avoid this
problem, he/she/it/you could use the technique he/she/it/you has called,
'deliberate[ [error']] for example, if you purpose of the[ [purposely]]
for a stain rather to the law of your location, he/she/it/you will know
when he/she/it/you has struck the stain he/she/it/you must be to the
accident. He/she/it/you will interest see like the field breaks on, if it
is a[ [exodus]] of the bulk, if some people chooses be on.
[[exponentially]], he/she/it/you appears it be he begins of a storm
he/she/it/you appears in distance. avenues have formed here and there. I
seem to sit on the edge of one. Curtains have parked on in general double,
some aviators of kites use this avenue launch their kites. Correct as
players of the hairy flute, nude could they be there? . Some people ties
to a pole out these elaborates structures with chords of the[ [bungie]]
court among[ [tarps]] and pole. You/he/she/it seem a very good idea. I
marvel there it is an ideal social density, the atmosphere of the field
has changed radically. He/she/it/you has grown [[exponentially]].
He/she/it/you could be different thousand from hour, and there is not that
same frankness that was here when the field was smaller. Appalling storm
yesterday, he/she/it/you could see it he/she/it/you originates from the
south. This blinding clouds of[ [swirled]] of the dust on. You/he/she/it
sprinkle of rain, and then rapid expansion, the sun was out again. A storm
of best that correct has blown in and he/she/it/you has blown out. And
there was this thick bow. Last night seems to have has obtained much the
rain that that should have accompanied bombards earlier in the day. I
/they am in them[ [twenties]], above all[ [twenties]] early, I think. And
a different kind of attitude, it is not a town attitude. Kind of a
cacophony, cacophony of the[ [anarchistic]]. There are all kinds of be of
the music he/she/it/you has played simultaneously. Event of the shows
diverged to the same time, all covers the a the other. There is not a
sense of mutual cooperation. I spoke with some people from California and
that seems to be a distinctive change, to the minus in the Area of the
Recess. There ere is not that he/she/it/you feels of, equal there there is
not a sense, of frankness and friendliness and[ [camaraderie]] that
existed. And I think have disenchanted probably from that. You/he/she/it
remember those times and probably still closes with the keeper on to that
hour desire for frankness, but the younger generation has small case of my
real anticipations or consequences. They wait to take advantage of or
he/she/it/you reacts to, that frankness. I think have seen a cable in
a[[jumpsuit]] of the tattered big orange by a field a pair of doors on.
Very casual. But he/she/it/you could have belonged there. This has become
a more destiny that. By by he/she/it/you in the desert to the south is
like a subset or a makes up for field that seems to be a small
you/he/she/it ramble gathering, a thick structure has amplified slipknots
of the ribbon and as by. The Man that blazes, the structures it,
he/she/it/you has isolated, kind of he/she/it/you has isolated with of the
cords by in a by of the area by the east, diviner that is. If has been
isolated in central position, if the fire has stayed. If the archetype
always observable and central era. I think last night the field
he/she/it/you has seemed to flourish on a kind of frenzy that has joined
his growth . People had poured correct in and you/he/she/it induct field.
Just, just, just few people arrives from them. Often, particularly between
the younger collection, he/she/it/you has seemed to arrive in the.
Interesting, particularly during the storm, there was much kind of young,
diviner, enthusiasm. The storm come on. My activity or event to which
people subjects them, ends be in fiddling increase in terminus of the
socioeconomic bigger structures, maybe. More attention should be paid to
collision in social economy rather than begun to fire on developmental
capitalism. I correct he/she/it/you has started read The Beak of the Finch
and you/he/she/it speak about like Darwin really never experienced my
evolution where he. There is the cable in the[ [jumpsuit] ] of the orange
again. Maybe he/she/it/you has belonged there. He/she/it/you was odd.
He/she/it/you would see roam on the avenue here. special you/he/she/it
interest in all the varied structures, and he/she/it/you then has gone of
above to this field and he/she/it/you has started peers at in the windows
of the lorries has parked there. Small backpack and he/she/it/you has
gallivanted by across the[ [playa]], and then back has come brings
a[[overtop]] of the sweater of the[ [jumpsuit]] of the orange and
he/she/it/you then has taken a camera. He/she/it/you has not seemed really
like that he/she/it/you is really family or he/she/it/you indeed takes
diamonds of anything. He/she/it/you was correct a proper exit. Now, for
me, to the minus, he/she/it/you is worth come here and he/she/it/you sees
the expanse of desert and he/she/it/you could see this much surrounding in
a session from a position. .BLM writing desk of ownership of the
Management of the Earth and anybody could come here to any time without my
office. He/she/it/you would interest to arrival here only or in a small
group. The storm has lowered the Margarita you/he/she/it bar last night.
He/she/it/you has resembled an interesting place. I went go last night
there but he/she/it/you has been closed. He /she/it/you could feel the
sounds of the[ [techno]] he/she/it/you of the beats first thing in the
morning. I don't know if they originate from the aloof field or in any
nearer place. Some more clouds today, but he/she/it/you doesn't resemble
them go horse back riding be. The more common expression here is,
'Woo-who-who-who-ah-hah-hah-hah-oo-oo-oo-oo-oo-oo-oo.' Kind of song
liturgical tribal varieties. I think know something about, an aroma for
life, young enthusiasm. ???? of metamorphosis berserk suspension.
[[techno]], hit, the sound of he/she/it/you has amplified applause A
he/she/it/you shares of my enthusiasm he/she/it/you is obligatory. I love
this sun, he/she/it/you is big. .storm yesterday correct he/she/it/you has
equalized all to brightest part almost, aerodynamic of structures of the
curtain. Saw this small car of the rocket, he/she/it/you had couple of men
in them I delay 50s, 60s. Low, he/she/it/you is maybe a foot you/he/she/it
crave, 8 moves tall. I don't know it like you/he/she/it work but
you/he/she/it seem to be driven radio. They had cross it he/she/it/you
obtains work last night but the preceding night that I have seen
compresses about the periphery. Correct kind of small increasing red
rocket. He/she/it/you had this strange reality he/she/it/you has
low-pitchy vibrating sound like he/she/it/you has compressed together
with, ardent red at night. Real interesting era. I think to I transcribe
these notes in a page of the cloth single room that could be changed. Then
he/she/it/you would have the same text he/she/it/you drivels about him. I
marvel from you/he/she/it continually mention the concept of the
'community' word if that he/she/it/you indeed arrives before a this thing
to happen. Maybe communion is like the awareness or the remembers a dream.
Maids some function in be. he/she/it/you has expounded in a by of the
[[subconscious]] but there is no real reason he/she/it/you has an awake.
or realization of the[ [reenactment]] of him. All the furniture and the
harness varied personnels are the substitute of a poor man for a RV. As
many fonts of the different sound simultaneously. I begin to marvel that
that he/she/it/you would happen if only the emitter of he/she/it/you has
registered music or he/she/it/you has designated players it has been
permission play that music. Beautiful much pages of the similar house.
You/he/she/it order of you/he/she/it eliminate big, to some extension,
you/he/she/it eliminate the commercial big enterprise in the
monopolization of. Wired periodical. last year, I have proposed write an
article of the party of the Man that blazes and they could not see the
connection. I think the connection among the kind of attitudes and ideas
that they present and that that he/she/it/you happened here, pontifical
knows that that he/she/it/you was of, but I think the connection it is the
arrangement, increasing growth, fluid of structures and[ [placements]] and
the connections among them seem beautiful very synonymous with connections
of the[ [hypertext]] and an increasing body of documents and pages and
places that I/they have interconnected in varied streets. .Campsites
filling-on brisk. There is an other piano. Saw some, diviner, exceptional
characters. There is a cable that I have seen last night you/he/she/it
bring leather you/he/she/it chap and door a whip of the long leather and
elements of the binge in search of unity, diviner. There is a cable with a
Mohawk curly pink [color] and a join g-sequence curly pink [color].
.African-americano Mrs. he/she/it/you has been massaged well with the
white clay of the[ [playa]]. That more era of a thing of the shrewd of
the[ [culturally]], I assume. Bongo plays on the drum he/she/it/you has
impacted under his bifurcate baton. .There some of the has perforated
crowd of the[ [genitalia]] . Those small slipknots must obtain hot in the
sun. .A joins of[ [teepees]]. .a carrier of the[ [parasail]], be of the
cable an other he/she/it/you has thrown =D0 that resembles a regular
parachute but he/she/it/you was pinched together with and he/she/it/you
raise on in the sky from means of an affecting lorry and management of the
long line to him. And Sunday and they arrive still. Not rather like many,
I would guess. But they dribble still in. Praticare the [surfing] music.
The music was the wave. Now the radio disposes has devolved in
[[dee-jays]] of the guest. He/she/it/you would interest has an event that
would have probably be an event [cataclismica] likes a Telsa he/she/it/you
winds that he/she/it/you would drive out fight all the motors of the
inside combustion and all the breeders. And the least attractive people
that they have their bodies has covered with[ [tattoos]] and[ [markings]]
varied and adornments and[ [piercings]]. _____ of be has pushed equal more
distant to the periphery. To the minus there anything is decided, some
decided. Downpour an other sudden he/she/it/you has accompanied from
primitive cries he/she/it/you has punctuated from you/he/she/it cry of
punishment like the rain he/she/it/you has turned to greet. Not also acute
on the mud. He/she/it/you with good hope will soak in the[ [playa]] soon.
Then the actual that he/she/it/you blazes of the Man that blazes =D0
[[oooh]], beautiful hawk that =D0 was a very long,[ [climactic]], dramatic
he/she/it/you builds on of people gradually formation a big circle about
the Man that blazes. In the perimeter of the circle from the small car of
the rocket. bright laser across the desert [toward] the Man that blazes.
There is a[ [buildup]] general of ebullience and revenge, almost. They
have a he/s he/it/you assails rioting mentality with all the flaming
torches and artful fires. Child blazes. As you/he/she/it seem to be more
of, and the structure of the Man that he blazes, is [[unmistakably]]
similar you/he/she/it to the tall strain power tower here. As
he/she/it/you suggests that the Man that blazes that he/she/it/you is be a
symbol he/she/it/you has winded on with technology and the new world
orders and his destruction in any way prepares liberation for
[[ecological]] tribal problems not completely the same conceives, I think,
like a jubilee or a pain of the old man, which would be more subdued. A
kind of a narrates of the past like contrary to almost a kind of a cattail
bump of he/she/it/you has focused antagonism [toward] a technological
symbol. One of the cooler things that I have seen was a woman
he/she/it/you has painted entirely you/he/she/it in natural deep [indaco]
blue pigmented he/she/it/you compresses about the desert on a motorcycle.
In any way that interested. The plays on the drum it is a small much after
a during. I understand it am there when he/she/it/you goes sleep and
he/she/it/you is there when you/he/she/it get up in the morning.
He/she/it/you could be very electronic or it could be handbook, diviner.
He kind of he/she/it/you obtains to you after a during. Told Free 'Drum
Zone.' Like the field has obtained bigger, the clarity and kind of
inchoate amazement of sight any kind of structure on this kind of
[[wasteland]] barren he/she/it/you quickly has deteriorated in more noise
that mark. More accident than a feeling of a has become rambles. It would
be a very interesting place send a class of students of the art
he/she/it/you has interested in art of the show. Best part of the event is
of an auditory nature. I have seen some the walk of the people about with
directional microphones and archivists of the ribbon. Rich font of sound
all event simultaneously. And the kind of the sound of bounces by the
hills. Bovine livestock of the cow from the long [corna] on the side of
the has promenaded. I have seen a bobwhite he/she/it/you replaces the
middle. Much rabbits of the bunny, rabbits of the[ [cottontail]]. Life has
become a font of continual irritation. That is the function of [[techno]],
drive back the irritation. Flat and I still increase the level of
you/he/she/it despair.=20
--
[first Italian translation: unassisted; posted to 'it.cultura']
<<http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bm.html>>
__
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 16:44:06 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Chris Tietjens <Tietjensc@AOL.COM>
Subject: Memo from Nemo
(from Paul Vangelisti's book Nemo, p.61)
"poetry is not words anymore than paintings are paint."
First time this morning I see a hummingbird.
Plenty of big golden butterflies though.
"white men who are alienated from their emotions & think their way to
compassion are barking up the wrong tree."
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 10:13:25 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Mark Roberts <M.Roberts@ISU.USYD.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: I found this on a local board. I have NOT verified it.
>Re Dole/?penis. These things do occur. There was a similar problem
>in English-speaking countries over the name of French rugby forward
>Jean Condom every time he wrapped up an opponent. But noone stopped
>printing his name out of embarrassment as far as I know.
>
>Tony Green,
>e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz
I can remember a story told by former Australian PM Gough Whitlam of how a
Australian brand of beer called XXXX (or four X) caused problems in
France because four X was also the brand name of a make of condoms.
Unfortunately the jingle for the beer commercial went something like "I can
feel a four X coming on".
__________________________________
Mark Roberts
Student Systems Project Officer
Information Systems
University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia
M.Roberts@isu.usyd.edu.au
PH:(02)351 5066
FAX:(02)351 5081
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 10:15:11 GMT+1300
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: Re: allegory, faith, neutrality, poetry
Re Jordan Davis's commentaries: reading the words, yes, but how
exactly read the words? in neutral, neutrally? (and also write the
words thinking of neutral reading of them to come). Perhaps the guts
of the question is "what do words say"? (in any given situation of
reading/writing). I find it hard to believe that it is possible to
exclude any of the old four-fold hermeneutics of text: literal,
moral, allegorical and anagogical from a reader's reading. My fav
question, tho, coming back again, is "What is a literal meaning of a
text?" or can it be said so that it's saying is completely
sufficient and exclusive of all moral, allegorical and anagogical
hearing/reading of it.
Having asked myself this question a lot and finding out that
finding answers involves an abyss, should I now ask this question on
this list? Probably not you might say.
Best
wishes, best of luck...
Tony Green,
e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 03:25:45 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "k.a. hehir" <angelo@MUSTANG.UWO.CA>
Subject: Re: allegory, faith, neutrality, poetry
In-Reply-To: <F8DB196BD4@ccnov2.auckland.ac.nz>
hello all,
i am very new to the list, but i must say that the tenor of discourse is
much friendlier than some of the other academy driven groups i look in on.
that said, i would like to add my two bits concerning Tony Green's last
post. those four folds you mention have always been a problem for me.
locke says that the mind only knows what experience writes there, so any
composition comes out of a pool of words the writer has acquired through
either reading or hearing. the difficulty of wrenching the word from the
familiar parenthesis of context is the poet's challenge. If this can be
done, and we all know that it can be, whose literal history, morality,
allegorical reference or anagogical framework does the receiver need to
get the most value for their buck?
i realize that i may be getting into an issue that slowly turns over a
fire of semantics but i have always felt that my biggest frustration is
letting a piece go without footnotes.
word are like fish
you catch them
admire their colours in a story to your friends.
fish that,
once tossed back into the lexicon lake
your fingerprints are washed away.
so tony, "what is the literal meaning"? to whom? reader?writer?...editor?
to me," saying is completely sufficient", even if it is only into a vacuum
engineered by those fine folks at NASA.
cheers,
kevin
My song-ship packed
With poet's art
It's word-keel cracked
Your frozen heart
Egil Skallagrimson
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 09:47:10 GMT0BST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Peter Larkin <LYAAZ@LIBRIS.LIB.WARWICK.AC.UK>
Organization: UNIVERSITY OF WARWICK LIBRARY
Subject: Cambridge Conference on Contemporary Poetry
If this list is still waiting for a report from CCCP.6, perhaps I can
supply an interim one. I was there on Friday and Saturday, though
didn't attend all sessions. Barry MacSweeney did appear on the Friday
night and read from Pearl and some more recent "drying out" poems.
The Friday night session was in a smaller room but was packed out,
with offstage noise from a nearby bar ironically accompanying Barry's
rather quiet readings in what was a muffled acoustic anyway. I am
told these readings didn't quite have the "edge" they had at
SubVoicive recently. I also went to the only discussion session of
the conference, a three-way debate on the role of poetry mag
editors between John Kinsella, Andrew Duncan and John Wilkinson (who
as a non-recent editor also spoke for the "client"). The three papers
varied between maximal and minimal ideals of editorial role,relevance
of any sort of market dimension, capacity to absorb poems through
such a medium as distinct from reviews, questions of cultural stance
and impositional (or oppositional) barriers etc. There were
substantial responses from the floor by Les
Murray and Ben Watson and a final, audience-induced intervention from
Anthony Mellors, who most people thought should have been on the
panel anyway.
cris cheek who was coming and going may be able to caption some of
the other sessions for you.
Peter
Peter Larkin Philosophy & Literature Librarian
University of Warwick Library,Coventry CV4 7AL UK
Tel:01203 524475 Fax: 01203 524211
Email: Lyaaz@Libris.Lib.Warwick.ac.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 10:30:50 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Mark Wallace <mdw@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU>
Subject: OPEN LETTER TO BOB HOLMAN
AN OPEN LETTER TO BOB HOLMAN
Dear Bob:
I've appreciated your posts to this poetics listserve, and have
been glad to see your interactions with various people on this list. I
also enjoyed your Sunday letter in the Washington Post in response to
William Powers's rather ridiculous critique of the television series you
helped produce, "The United States of Poetry." But your useful letter
raised some problems that I feel a need to address, and I hope that by
posting this letter to the poetics list, my concerns will reach you.
Powers's bourgeious culture-vulture notion that poetry is "a
decorous, fragile art, ever in danger of exploitation and corruption by
barbarians," cannot of course go unchallenged, and I like the way your
letter argues for a much more open, complex, and rigorous notion of
poetry as an art that challenges rather than decorates culture and
society. I like the way "The United States of Poetry" similarly does not
let poetry retain such a simultaneously elite and pointless status, but
reveals it to be a living art of central importance not only to those of
us who engage in it, but to U.S. society in general. "The United States of
Poetry" also very usefully critiques the idea that our mainstream poetic
culture--a culture defined and limited by its own money and power--is not
by any means the central source of the value of poetry.
The problem I have with your letter, however, has to do with your
final paragraph, in which you list the names of "some of today's great
D.C. poets" who you were not able to showcase in your program. The poets
you list there--Ethelbert Miller, D.J. Renegade, Kwelismith, Jose Padua,
Silvana Straw, Jeff McDaniel, and others--certainly are all excellent
poets, and deserve whatever attention they receive. Yet as a D.C. poet,
and as someone who interacts with various D.C. poetic communities, I
can't help noticing that with the exception of Pulitzer Prize winner
Henry Taylor, every poet you mention comes from only one of D.C.'s many
poetic communities. Without wanting to label anyone, it seems to me
nonetheless clear that everyone you mention in your letter is part of
what might be called D.C.'s performance poetry/slam scene, a very worthwhile
community, but hardly the only significant D.C. poetry community.
I haven't seen all of "The United States of Poetry." Here in D.C.
it's televised at odd hours, and my own personal work schedule is even
odder. But I wonder how you would respond to my sense, based on
incomplete evidence, that your program tends to give the implication that
the performance/slam scene is the only significant "alternative" in
American poetry to the mainstream verse culture that the program does
successfully call into question.
The danger in doing such a thing, of course, is that you would be
unintentionally repeating precisely that problem that it seems the
program wants to question--the idea that there is only one significant
community of American poets. Granted, the performance/slam scene is a
fabulous multi-cultural environment in which poets from a huge variety of
backgrounds come together to present their art and to exchange ideas. But
I wonder if a better tactic to challenging the hegemony of mainstream
verse culture would be to suggest that there are a variety of
"alternative" communities out there, not just one.
I myself am most closely associated in D.C. with a group of poets
who might be called "avant garde" in their concerns, although again, such
labels are always limiting. I run a reading series at the Ruthless Grip
Art Project on U and 15th streets, which features a variety of such
writers, and I know from my own experience that D.C. features many such
excellent writers. I think some of them may even be known to you. So I can't
help wishing that in your letter to the Post you mentioned some people
outside the performance/slam community--excellent writers like Joan
Retallack, Tina Darragh and Peter Inman, Tom Mandel, Rick Peaboby,
Beth Joselow, David McAleavey, Heather Fuller, Buck Downs, Rod
Smith and Joe Ross (who in my understanding was even involved in the D.C.
planning for your television series), and many others. I'd like to know why
none of these
names were mentioned--mentioning one or two of them would not have been
difficult, and would, I think, have given your remarks in the Post the
appearance of a broader commitment to diverse communities than they
currently do.
I think we now live in a society where no one group can lay claim
to being the sole source of significant poetic activity. Yet it remains
too easy, whether it happens intentionally or unintentionally, to retain
the assumption that only our own community is doing significant work. So
I'd ask you to consider, in future, whether or not it might be worthwhile
to make more of an attempt, in your public commentaries to newspapers or
on T.V., to suggest that one of the strengths of "The United States of
Poetry" is the ability of poetry to sustain many and varied communities
of poetry, communities which often have very different assumptions about
the value of poetic acts.
Sincerely,
Mark Wallace
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 11:21:01 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: literal, moral, allegorical, analogical
Tony--
One can no more do without those categories of reading than one could
forego water, fire, earth or air. Or the four humors.
Of course there will be contemporary alchemists who suggest that there is
something else, like *valence*, that attaches words to words, or rather
allows one word to suggest another [to a writer?]. That there are chemical
series of words. Half-lives.
I have to admit that this is not an idea that originates with me (as the
ideas about coincidence and compassion in my last post came from
discussions with Steve Carll, Larry Price and Douglass Rothschild); there
is a study on valence in Clark Coolidge's work from _Own Face_ through
_Solution Passage_ by Chris Jacobsen that I think I have lost. Maybe
someone else on the list has seen it? Maybe someone knows how to reach
Chris?
[Maybe someone else came up with valence and Chris didn't attribute it or I
don't remember the attribution.]
Why wouldn't there be forty words for snow, or eighty ways to talk about time.
(It's the talking about ourselves that I think can be read about four ways.)
--Jordan
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 11:47:49 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: literal, moral, allegorical, anagogical
Oops!
mistake in previous header.
Jd
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 11:27:46 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Mark Jones <mjones@AUSCSMP.SPS.MOT.COM>
Subject: New Chapbook
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 29 Apr 1996 11:21:01 CDT."
<v01520d01adaa997000c7@[166.84.199.56]>
Hi! I'm new to this list. I live in Austin, Texas
and have been writing poetry for about 19 years.
My new chapbook is out. It's called _Leaves on the
Altar of Time_ and contains the best of the last
10 years of my poetry. I'm not sure how to say what
it's like, however. I've been trying for months
and only come up with approximations of poems in
order to describe the poems. Here's the latest:
The basic experience -- sun, moon, wind, tall grasses,
space, a blue flame. I usually concentrate on sound
and light. I try to avoid explicit abstractions, though
I indulge in them occasionally. On the other hand,
it's all abstract.
I'm easily bored by derivitive discourse including
literary criticism (bummer) unless it illuminates being
as it is (not just the literary context.) When I
say "derivative discourse", I don't exaclty mean the
language that creates and sustains the world, but
rather the vomitous rehashing of cultural trivia.
(Don't worry, I'm not a purist, not a whip cracker,
and I find consistencies, boundaries, and
many disctinctions to be repulsive. Most of the time,
I'm rather laid back and upbeat. I just happen to
work in an environment right now where people tend
to talk much and act little.)
A fragment:
Life is not an either/or --
it's *both*, *and*, *also*, and *why?*,
sound and furry folded wonders and
always the open sky.
_Leaves on the Altar of Time_ can be bought for $5.50 at
the Laughing at the Sun gallery on South 1st St. in Austin
or ordered directly from
Mark Wayland Jones
5408-A Brompton Circle
Austin, TX 78745
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 16:22:12 CST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Baratier <dave.baratier@MOSBY.COM>
Subject: The common decency of allegory
As a species of relief, whether humeric, saturated or otherwise, I
find these same truths evidence that we are so much closer to
compssion in the modern age, especially in this medium where each day
I find myself closest to having a simultanaiety. Why just this minute
someone mailed me something from this minute. We who are at the brink
of the instant are celebrating it by buying less durable goods and
more gereric cereal. Our voluntary simplicity becomes us in the same
way that a poem depends upon our knowledge of the poet in order to
possess the editorial capacity to save the audience from the
pseudonymous ambassadors of ideology who are deflecting meaning into
crouch formation. In typical double standard, where nothing is said
except "look ma no hands" which is then transformed into hands without
a face I too would argue that the social life of poets is what is at
issue in developing elementary schools.
Be well.
David Baratier
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 17:44:03 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: eyes without efface
Baraka Dave!
The genius of rolaids is the weather channel in turmeric. On Saturday my
mother wears white and I find the sane truth. Avoidance that you use as a
'closer' or a 'compass' is very modern, yes, especially in the middle of
each dais. I myself keep the vacuum in the closet, but at the same time I
ask why someone very small would mail me rice. That's brinksmanship for
you, party party. Bye-bye les bons bons, au revoir, Richard Gere. We could
volunteer to be more simple, but it's not so becoming. The poem is leaning
on our knowledge as the poet leans on our sanity, placing an order for
veteran opacities. Save the audience? Shoe Donna Moose? What the past has
for an idea whore doesn't fleck meaning where I come from. But then I'm a
gemini. Nothing is sad except Billy Idol's song "Eyes Without a Face." Hey
man, you like "Transformer?" I hand it to you, you'd socialize. What it is.
A developing elemenope. A schmoo.
Be plus,
Jaglom
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 18:09:30 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: XXXX.
>I can remember a story told by former Australian PM Gough Whitlam of how a
>Australian brand of beer called XXXX (or four X) caused problems in
>France because four X was also the brand name of a make of condoms.
>Unfortunately the jingle for the beer commercial went something like "I can
>feel a four X coming on".
>
The way I heard it was that Forex is the name of a condom in England, and
in Australia there was a billboard that demanded: "Put a four X to your
lips."
I have also heard people in Victoria and NSW say that XXXX is the way
Queenslanders spell BEER.
"Take off your hat & coat & give me all your money"
George Bowering.
2499 West 37th Ave.,
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 11:46:57 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Mark Roberts <M.Roberts@ISU.USYD.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: XXXX.
>>I can remember a story told by former Australian PM Gough Whitlam of how a
>>Australian brand of beer called XXXX (or four X) caused problems in
>>France because four X was also the brand name of a make of condoms.
>>Unfortunately the jingle for the beer commercial went something like "I can
>>feel a four X coming on".
>>
>
>
>The way I heard it was that Forex is the name of a condom in England, and
>in Australia there was a billboard that demanded: "Put a four X to your
>lips."
>
>I have also heard people in Victoria and NSW say that XXXX is the way
>Queenslanders spell BEER.
>
>
I can't remember the put a XXXX to your lips - maybe they didn't run that
ad outside of Queensland. But I definitely remember "I can feel a four X
coming on" as there were hundreds of variations such as "I can feel a
headache, hangover, vomit etc coming on"
There was a UK film called THE LOVE CHILD which featured a talking can of
XXXX......
__________________________________
Mark Roberts
Student Systems Project Officer
Information Systems
University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia
M.Roberts@isu.usyd.edu.au
PH:(02)351 5066
FAX:(02)351 5081
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 00:51:36 +0000
Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <jzitt@bga.com>
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@HUMANSYSTEMS.COM>
Organization: HumanSystems
Subject: Re: Vancouver writers/Real Audio
Comments: To: David Ayre <david_ayre@MINDLINK.BC.CA>
Comments: cc: twood@connect.net, cloward@utdallas.edu
On 27 Apr 96 at 15:15, David Ayre wrote:
> "Poetry in gurgling clear RealAudio. It's one of the best ways to use up the
> valuable time on your internet account."
I love the liquid murmur RealAudio puts behind things. They don't
care for it much at work, where we're putting up files of speeches by
suits, but it does cool things to other sound stuff.
FWIW, my sound poetry ensemble, "Question Authority, The", (also
featuring listmembers Tim Wood and Tim Cloward) has some RealAudio
samples (download only) at our Web site. The page they're on is
http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/QA/qwho.html
I think we sound sorta like a cross between the Four Horsemen,
various parts of 2001, and the Muppets, but what do I know :-)
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/<A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/">Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\|
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 01:57:42 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Eryque Gleason <eryque@ACMENET.NET>
i really hate to re-open this wriggly ball of worms, but my current reading
has brought me back to the notion of "writing through the body". i have a
very specific question: does "writing through the body" have to be done in
the first person? and does second person really count as a seperate
perspective in this instance? it seems that most of what i've read that
might be counted in this category (which is admittedly, not a ton) is
either first or second person, got me to wonderin.
thankee,
eryque
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 23:39:00 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: XXXX.
For a while they were selling those yellow cans of XXXX over here, but I
havent seen it lately. I guess everyone here found out what everyone there
knows.
I prefer Cooper's Real Ale. And that beer from Tasmania with the weird
animal on the label.
"Take off your hat & coat & give me all your money"
George Bowering.
2499 West 37th Ave.,
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 02:38:57 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Alan Sondheim <sondheim@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199604300557.BAA26370@shell.acmenet.net>
If you look at Vito Acconci's early writing when he was still known as
Vito Hannibal Acconi, you'll find the second-person dominates in terms of
this - also in a number of his performances. You'll also find it in
narrative issues in Net sex - I just spoke to that in a conference.
There's a kind of textual inhabitation of the other at work - Alan
On Tue, 30 Apr 1996, Eryque Gleason wrote:
> i really hate to re-open this wriggly ball of worms, but my current reading
> has brought me back to the notion of "writing through the body". i have a
> very specific question: does "writing through the body" have to be done in
> the first person? and does second person really count as a seperate
> perspective in this instance? it seems that most of what i've read that
> might be counted in this category (which is admittedly, not a ton) is
> either first or second person, got me to wonderin.
>
> thankee,
> eryque
>
<> <> <> <> <> <> <>
http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html
images at http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/
.sigless in Gaza
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 03:02:11 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Happy Genius <landers@VIVANET.COM>
Subject: Happy Genius seeking submissions
I am starting a new little magazine called "Happy Genius" after one of my
favorite Williams poems. It is to contain only poetry. My taste is toward
Black Mountain and L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E influenced work. I don't mean you have
to follow some guidelines set down by someone else, of course. I want to
publish what I would buy or what I wish I had written (if you know that
feeling).
So far I have about 50 pages of work, some of it is from people whose work
I have enjoyed for many years, others are from new sources. I want twice
that anount in order to put a perfect binding on it.
The poetry will also be available in .pdf file format via the world wide web.
Please send work to Peter Landers landers@vivanet.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 00:18:41 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
At 1:57 AM 4/30/96, Eryque Gleason wrote:
>i really hate to re-open this wriggly ball of worms, but my current reading
>has brought me back to the notion of "writing through the body". i have a
>very specific question: does "writing through the body" have to be done in
>the first person? and does second person really count as a seperate
>perspective in this instance? it seems that most of what i've read that
>might be counted in this category (which is admittedly, not a ton) is
>either first or second person, got me to wonderin.
Eryque,
The answer to the above is no, writing through the body does not just
entail first or second person, I believe Monique Wittig in _The Lesbian
Body_ uses third person to great effect. If you think about it, first
person wouldn't be the ideal person for writing through the body, because
much of that notion is a transcending of the coddled bourgeoise "I," and,
often enough, "you" is merely a mirror to bounce "I" up against.
Don't let all that Cixous get to you.
Dodie
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 09:42:09 +0000
Reply-To: William.Northcutt@uni-bayreuth.de
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <bts403@btr0x1.hrz.uni-bayreuth.de>
From: William Northcutt <William.Northcutt@UNI-BAYREUTH.DE>
Subject: 17th International Ezra Pound Conference
Comments: To: HDSOC-L@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU, epound-l@maine.maine.edu,
"Andrew M. Lakritz" <alakritz@guarany.cpd.unb.br>
17th International Ezra Pound Conference
Brunnenberg, Tirolo di Merano, Italy
July 12-15 1997
The 17th International Ezra Pound Conference will be held at
Brunnenberg, Alto Adige. The site is the residence of Pound's
daughter, Mary de Rachewiltz, and contains an extensive archive of relevant
books, pictures, and manuscripts.
Proposals are invited for papers on any aspect of the topic:
"Ezra Pound and Poetic Influence"
If you are interested in giving a paper, please send a synopsis
(about 250 words) to the Convenor by October 1, 1996. Presentations
should be limited to a 30 minute delivery, allowing 15 min. for
discussion. If you wish to submit a proposal and be sure of
receiving details of accommodation, costs, etc., please contact the
Convenor:
Richard Taylor
LS-Anglistik
Universaet Bayreuth
D-95440 Bayreuth, Germany
Fax: (0921)553627 (from America, 011-49-921-553627)
or, send e-mail to: william.northcutt@uni-bayreuth.de
Early submission of title and synopsis would be greatly appreciated.
______________________________________________________
Buddy Guy Rules!!! Damned right he's got the blues!!!
______________________________________________________
william.northcutt@uni-bayreuth.de
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 07:37:29 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: USOP
In-Reply-To: <199604300408.AAA03223@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
which title reminds me of "VSOP" -- but I never did drink that much--
re: Mark's recent open letter to Bob in response to Bob's letter in the
Wash. Post, the which I have not seen --
Would you really call Ethelbert part of the "performance / slam" scene ?
I mean, he's part of that scene in the sense that he's been seen there --
but really --
On the other hand, I have seen all episodes of USOP and was worried by a
certain narrowness in selection of poetries (and in visual "vision,"
which I have already mentioned here)) It was nice to see Carla's eyes
again, though I nearly missed her,,,, but there were any number of poems
in the series that just didn't make it for me on any level of verbal
inventiveness -- tho I suppose that had the effect of making Jimmy Carter
sound like an elder statesman of mainstream verse --
and shouldn't we have seen a few more of those folk who actually make
video art involving poetry, huh?? always nice to give Barbara Kruger
even more credits than she already has . . . but hell, they give Barbara
Kruger Tee-Shirts to you if you pledge five bucks to PBS,,, this was
"alternative" about the same way that the "alternative" stations you hear
playing the same music all over the country are "alternative"
To quote Les McCann and Eddie Harris of some years ago, "but compared to
what?"
still enjoyed seeing it on the tube -- sure beats whoever Bill Moyers is
interviewing about the afterlife this week -- will watch again,,, but
let's hope for more expansive future editions??
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 09:58:47 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Mark Jones <mjones@AUSCSMP.SPS.MOT.COM>
Subject: Re: Writing from the Body
[From: Eryque Gleason <eryque@ACMENET.NET>]
>i really hate to re-open this wriggly ball of worms, but my current reading
>has brought me back to the notion of "writing through the body".
Could you elaborate on 'writing through the body'?
Mark J.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 11:57:18 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Alexander <chax@MTN.ORG>
Subject: writing through
>i really hate to re-open this wriggly ball of worms, but my current reading
>has brought me back to the notion of "writing through the body". i have a
>very specific question: does "writing through the body" have to be done in
>the first person? and does second person really count as a seperate
>perspective in this instance? it seems that most of what i've read that
>might be counted in this category (which is admittedly, not a ton) is
>either first or second person, got me to wonderin.
eryque, I think it would be an entrapment of the body to demand that it be
"written through" from any particularl or limited point of view or
perspective. A lot of the best writing is done, for example, from the inside
(of anything, of language, of the body, . . .), where sense of person break
down. I think specifically of Danielle Collobert's It Then, in which there
is no sense of a fixed person, be it first or second or tenth, yet which I
think of very much as writing through the body, through the gap, through the
connection & disconnection -- here is a section, as translated by Norma
Cole, published by O Books in 1989 (French edition published in 1976 by the
Change Collection, Seghers/Laffont)
__________________
on the verge of the spasm -- the ghost of a voice
the head suddenly full -- its head -- murmuring -- the sound level --
replaces the voice -- scrapings -- misfires -- hooks a wordshape -- with the
help of a gesture -- evident image -- with the help -- modulation of sound
-- set high -- nasal -- in search of -- slow approach -- towards tonality --
loses the rhythm -- jolts -- portends the word -- retreat and fear -- but no
-- slow and sweet arrival of the voice -- phrase to roll calmly into memory
-- bright and distinct knowing of moments moving -- drowned in the voice --
still the absence
or a later section
___________________
flowed into the body there -- to rejoin the moment there -- no longer trying
to flee -- dived into the other body -- drawing out its sap -- the quantity
of words it needs to survive -- to get to the end of the day -- perhaps
possible -- if it is not frightened of the pain
body grip -- word grip -- asks the other body for the unexpressed -- birth
of uncertainty -- already overwhelmed -- will never be said -- knows it --
hopeless waiting to touch being
I also think of bp Nichol's Selected Organs as an entirely different sense
of writing through the body, where bp writes about, and often from the point
of view of, selected body organs. So, perhaps a literal treatment, but a
fascinating one (pub. by Black Moss Books in 1987, I believe, but I'm
working from memory right now -- parts of it in An H in the Heart: A Reader,
by bp Nichol, publ. in the Modern Canadian Poets Series, McClelland &
Stewart, 1994).
charles alexander
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 14:30:52 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Coffey <MCOFFEY@PW.CAHNERS.COM>
Subject: writing through -Reply
Comments: To: chax@MTN.ORG
writing through the body. it seems to me that there are only two
positions with respect to the concept: all writing is through the body
(what else writes, is writing?) or, "writing through the body is a
metaphor" because one presumes that writing exists or is enacted
somewhere else, someplace that "body" doesn't do justice to. And if
"writing through the body" is a metaphor, than perhaps that concept
owes less to the body than to the mind; it's an idea first. And if all
writing is through the body, then the idea of writing itself, not to mention
its enactment, can be seen as "bodily."
clearly, some writing involves the body more than other writing; henry
miller vs henry james, for example. but perhaps we are still deep in
metaphor here. I suppose the musicalilty of certain prose and poetry
affects the body more than certain other examples do, but could that be
considered writing through he body, or simply very rhythmic or sensual
writing?
one can write from the perspective of certain organs, lilke nichol. but
when is someone not writing from the perspective of certain organs?
Try writing without a body.
Of course, there is the strain of thought involving inspiration from afar
(Yeats' wife: "I've come to give you metaphors for poetry." What a come
on!) And Duncan and spirit and the like. That stuff can theoretically
originate from outside the body, the mind even; but it has to have a
medium: writing through the body.
might one append a hackneyed sestina? one might....
SESTINA
The six most important words in life
do not easily nominate themselves. In death
perhaps one would find them, like pebbles in the mouth.
Who can be sure, assembling a biography, that truth
resides anywhere, much less in words? The body
sings itself, as Whitman said, and is electric.
The sky is riven with it, the mind, too, electric
in its leap and pulse, the currency of life,
so say the scientists. What they know of the body
lapses after the shop shuts down, in death,
but it is a bitter end, this truth.
It is of hard sounds in the mouth.
One makes love with the mouth
and makes sounds that sound the electric
fields of molecules in passion; for truth
not much can be said, not in this life
for the final sums are unfinished at death.
That is why we must love the body.
All things swirl here, in the sea of the body.
One can hear the spectral roar out the mouth,
can imagine its yawned maw, frozen in death
above the blackened cavity, and detect no thing electric
in the lightless absence of life.
Still, one looks for the charge of truth.
Whatever we have--even if half--has to be truth,
life and logic coterminous with the body;
beyond that there may be some life
but we cannot know what we cannot mouth.
We can sing the body electric,
as Whitman said, but it won't worry death.
Who can say it means anything, death?
It is perhaps just another form of truth
or delusion. If it is not electric,
if there is something after body,
then it is a secret in God's mouth
and may have nothing to do with life.
If there is life after death
one wonders about this electric
but not about this: the truth of the body is the mouth.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 14:55:02 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Fred E. Maus" <fem2x@FARADAY.CLAS.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Subject: Re: writing through -Reply
In-Reply-To: <s18622e4.054@cahners.com> from "Michael Coffey" at Apr 30,
96 02:30:52 pm
responding to Michael Coffey:
> clearly, some writing involves the body more than other writing; henry
> miller vs henry james, for example.
writing *about* the body is not what's meant, I think
> I suppose the musicalilty of certain prose and poetry
> affects the body more than certain other examples do, but could that be
> considered writing through he body, or simply very rhythmic or sensual
> writing?
what is "musicality" of writing? what conception of music
underlies this comparison? which music, in whose experience of
it?
what on earth is simple about "very rhythmic or sensual writing"?
writing that leaves me tasting the words, feeling them in my
mouth, and/or feeling language rhythms as body rhythms,
is one way to write to my body; not the only one, I
suppose, as those are not the only or paradigmatic bodily
experiences ...
[this discussion is interesting to me, I look forward to its
continuation]
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 15:40:40 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Eryque Gleason <eryque@ACMENET.NET>
Subject: Re: Writing from the Body
In-Reply-To: <9604301500.AA27392@txbc.sps.mot.com>
Mark, really i can't elaborate coherently. Right now i'm dealing with
vague remeberies of the "writing the body" thread of about 2 months back,
and reaind cixous' "laugh of the medusa", trying to figure out what the
heck she's talking about. Mebbe someone a little more daring can
pinch-hit.
Eryque
On Tue, 30 Apr 1996, Mark Jones wrote:
> [From: Eryque Gleason <eryque@ACMENET.NET>]
> >i really hate to re-open this wriggly ball of worms, but my current reading
> >has brought me back to the notion of "writing through the body".
>
> Could you elaborate on 'writing through the body'?
>
> Mark J.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 15:08:15 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Coffey <MCOFFEY@PW.CAHNERS.COM>
Subject: writing through -Reply -Reply
wondering why my hackneyed sestina came back to me hacked up (not
that it isn't deserving, but the end-line scheme, so damn characterstic of
sestinas! was lost)' so i resend, freshly hacked, to experiment as much
as anything, with how things travel on this list--sorry to burden/michael
coffey
SESTINA
The six most important words in life
do not easily nominate themselves. In death
perhaps one would find them, like pebbles in the mouth.
Who can be sure, assembling a biography, that truth
resides anywhere, much less in words? The body
sings itself, as Whitman said, and is electric.
The sky is riven with it, the mind, too, electric
in its leap and pulse, the currency of life,
so say the scientists. What they know of the body
lapses after the shop shuts down, in death,
but it is a bitter end, this truth.
It is of hard sounds in the mouth.
One makes love with the mouth
and makes sounds that sound the electric
fields of molecules in passion; for truth
not much can be said, not in this life
for the final sums are unfinished at death.
That is why we must love the body.
All things swirl here, in the sea of the body.
One can hear the spectral roar out the mouth,
can imagine its yawned maw, frozen in death
above the blackened cavity, and detect no thing electric
in the lightless absence of life.
Still, one looks for the charge of truth.
Whatever we have--even if half--has to be truth,
life and logic coterminous with the body;
beyond that there may be some life
but we cannot know what we cannot mouth.
We can sing the body electric,
as Whitman said, but it won't worry death.
Who can say it means anything, death?
It is perhaps just another form of truth
or delusion. If it is not electric,
if there is something after body,
then it is a secret in God's mouth
and may have nothing to do with life.
If there is life after death
one wonders about this electric
but not about this: the truth of the body is the mouth.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 15:54:01 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Coffey <MCOFFEY@PW.CAHNERS.COM>
Subject: Re: writing through -Reply -Reply
Comments: To: fem2x@FARADAY.CLAS.VIRGINIA.EDU
responding to fred e. mauss, who said the following:
what is "musicality" of writing? what conception of music underlies this
comparison? which music, in whose experience of it?
what on earth is simple about "very rhythmic or sensual writing"?
writing that leaves me tasting the words, feeling them in my mouth, etc
fred, i don't really know, of course, but musicallity in writing for me is
writing that depends on harmonies, dissonances, expectations built,
dashed or satisfied by the sounds generated soley by the words for the
overall effect, rather than depending on logic, say, or exposition purely,
or the interplay of styles and modes. Someone like John Taggart is a
very musical writer, whereas Creeley is not, particularly (there is a
sublime mental music in Creeley, but no musical composition, as seems
to be the case with JT).
Ah, there is not necessarily anything "simple" aboutrhytmmic or sensual
writing, but then again, the sing-song is sometimes so easy to achieve
that one must be careful. all music isn't good. I recall John Sebastian, the
singer songwriter, in some interview, saying about some music he
wrote i think for a tv show, welcome back cotter, and he said, "the
theme song sounds so simple," and i was struck by the unmistakeable,
and banal, music in that phrase. The Theme Song Sounds So Simple.
and it is. Welcome baaack...
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 16:03:17 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Henry Gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: writing through -Reply -Reply
In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 30 Apr 1996 15:08:15 -0400 from
<MCOFFEY@PW.CAHNERS.COM>
On Tue, 30 Apr 1996 15:08:15 -0400 Michael Coffey said:
>
>If there is life after death
>
>
>one wonders about this electric
>
>
>but not about this: the truth of the body is the mouth.
Michael, I hope you won't mind some criticism - such a good sestina deserves
a better closing - in fact the only weak line really seems to be the
penultimate one ("one wonders about this electric"). Maybe some other
lines could be improved but I think it should close a little better...
enjoyed it - thank you! - Now I'll maybe have to send my own hack-kneed
sheshtina, watch out folks... - Henry Gould
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 16:12:44 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Henry Gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: sestina here goes
Here's a definitely 10-yr-old sestina. More hackneyed than Michael's.
and not written through any-body.
DOWNTOWN SESTINA
Downtown is gleaming, a nest of glass
scant refuge for the homeless and the poor
who trudge along under looming towers
hungry, frazzled, begging small change
and subject to the better sort of people
whose eyes reflect the glitter of the city
and so many circles animate the city
captured in the high gloss of the glass
what's taken for the playground of the people
erases every doorstep of the poor
in sprawling ellipses of loose change
under the stolid mystery of these towers
under the bright conundrum of these towers
these measuring rods allotting every city
gyroscopes adjusting every change
by whirling speculation in the glass
the downward spirals of the ornery poor
set stirring turbid shadows in the people
and shuttling promotions of the people
forecast by divination in the towers
(who's growing rich and who remaining poor)
start dancing fevers in the chattering city
and snarl the artist in her broken glass
frail craft undone by overmastering change
when fortune is the favored end of change
suburbia the limbo of the people
and tender conscience faints before the glass
rocketing skyward in pretentious towers
to serve the sleek imaginary city
or swell the sullen rancor of the poor
meanwhile the rhetoricians of the poor
in campus pockets rummaging for change
inscribe the true authoritative city
and mint sterling mementos of the people
studies wherein the mind serenely towers
over safe specimens tacked up under glass
So let's raise a glass to the dizzy city--
a toast to towers, and all red-faced people!
And drink for a change among the homespun poor.
--Henry Gould
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 16:42:48 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: creeley through th'
whereas Creeley is not
I doan know.. have you heard him read? live or on record, you've got to
grant him his *subtle* rhythm-as-hesitation, his sentence-as-melody..
whereas Taggart may actually be *over*stating his connection to music.. not
to perpetuate a possibly false distinction.. Jd
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 16:50:22 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Emily Lloyd <emilyl@EROLS.COM>
Subject: Jouissance, schmouissance, Stein
...I think the confusion here, at least for me, stems from not understanding
what difference is implied in a phrase like "writing through the body" as
opposed to "from the body" (which seems the most obvious) or plain old
"writing the body." When I think of Henry Miller, I think "writing about
the body" makes more sense than "through"----or writing NEAR the body (Also,
howabout Ginsberg's experiments typing during sex, or the "masturbation
journal" section of Kathy Acker's "The Language of the Body"?). So, is
there anyone out there willing & able to articulate the distinctions between
these 2 or 3 phrases? And possibly give examples? My body would be
grateful, or else I would.
On a different note, any gender scholars or Stein scholars out there ever
seen anything on Stein & transgenderism? Stein as gender transgressor? (not
just lesbian, but woman referring to herself as "husband," etc., & living in
what worked like a heterosexual relationship, Alice as traditional "wife"
etc.). My fairly young interest in transgender issues has been affecting my
reading of her, & I'm wondering if any work has been done on this...? I'm
talking secondary sources, not Stein's own writing. emily
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Emily Lloyd emilyl@erols.com
"Fist my mind in your hand"--Rukeyser
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 16:15:25 -0500
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From: Charles Alexander <chax@MTN.ORG>
Subject: Re: writing through -Reply -Reply
>Someone like John Taggart is a
>very musical writer, whereas Creeley is not, particularly (there is a
>sublime mental music in Creeley, but no musical composition, as seems
>to be the case with JT).
Have to disagree, thinking Creeley is a most musical writer, even though the
music may be more minimal and less repetitive than in Taggart, more akin to
certain moments in composers as diverse as Stravinsky and John Cage, whereas
Taggart's music is more recognizable in his repeating patterns, building
constantly. I greatly admire the work of both Creeley & Taggart, but it
seems like to not think of Creeley as musical is to cut out a great
tradition of avant-garde music of our century.
Creeley has a magnificent ear for both speech & abstract patterns in
language. Is this not music?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 17:24:20 -0400
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From: Emily Lloyd <emilyl@EROLS.COM>
Subject: Re: writing through -Reply -Reply
At 03:54 PM 4/30/96 -0400, Michael Coffey wrote:
Someone like John Taggart is a
>very musical writer, whereas Creeley is not, particularly (there is a
>sublime mental music in Creeley, but no musical composition, as seems
>to be the case with JT).
>
O! O! O! I find Creeley *exceptionally*, maybe even *especially*, "musical."
That's all. e
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Emily Lloyd emilyl@erols.com
"Fist my mind in your hand"--Rukeyser
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 17:50:34 -0400
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From: Bob Holman <Nuyopoman@AOL.COM>
Subject: AN OPEN REPLY TO MARK WALLACE
Dear Mark,
Thank you for your letter and I agree with your concerns. Indeed, I have a
great appreciation for the work of several of the poets you mentioned, and
found some names new to me, always a good vital sign for a scene like yours.
I do think your letter would have been more pointed if you had mentioned
poets from _other_ groups, besides yours, that I failed to mention. The
great ASL poets at Gaullidet, for instance, or Carolyn Forche and her crew at
George Mason, or the Bethesda Writers Center (Joan Retallack can tell a tale
of cutting through walls there!) . You also have simplified the "performance
poetry/slam" scene: believe me, there are many distinct groups of poets among
those I mentioned, all of whom I was personally involved with during a 3-week
residency in DC this past fall. Indeed, the underlying purpose of that
residency was to break down barriers between different cultures' poetry, and
get some crossing over to happen.
Finally, thanks for your kind words re: USOPand the thrust of my letter to
the Post. Your own commentary might have meant more and had a wider
circulation had you sent it directly to the Washington Post as well. The way
to get more poets and more poetries on TV is to expand the number of poetry
shows on the cyclops-in-the-corner.
Love,
Bob Holman
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 18:16:04 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From: "Walter K. Lew" <WKL888@AOL.COM>
Subject: Allegorical Bore/Encomiastic Firepower/Fish Phones
Current issue of Fortune magazine includes the annual "Ode to the Fortune
500" by Stanley Bing. Blurb in the table of contents runs:
"Why poetry? Because some things are just too big for prose."
"So let us now begin our ode
To capitalism's motherlodex"
etc.
Why stop at four-fold hermeneutics--why not
XXXXX
Intermedia texts always motion to a level beyond/across language,
symbolized/sustained by blank paper or a diagram or chart or blank space(s)
between these all--Is that the same as Tony Green's semantic "abyss"? Or are
the plurals more singular here, there (but not everywhere)?
Welcome K. A. Hehir!
re: >frustration is
letting a piece go without footnotes.
word are like fish
you catch them
admire their colours in a story to your friends.
fish that,
once tossed back into the lexicon lake
your fingerprints are washed away.<
For returning fine-finned words to the lake, without one's phoning
fingerprints, see Fred Wah's short "The Poem Called Syntax" (in his _So Far_
[Vancouver: Talonbooks 1991]; also in my anthology _Premonitions_). Inverse
of the Chuang-tzu analogy, in which words are the fishtrap
and meaning the
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 19:40:02 -0400
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From: "Walter K. Lew" <WKL888@AOL.COM>
Subject: Korea, malls, etc.
>Walter Lew, can
you tell me, is this true about South Korea, that it's as commercial as
Minnesota?
-J. Davis
Wow, felt like Ramon Fernandez for a second, but without fishing boat. What,
you tink only Mellicans buy Samsung VCRs and Hyundai cars? Whatever thread
runs through the Egypt, Sri Lanka, Italy, Estonia, Nepal you mention as
wanting to visit, it will ignite and unravel in Seoul. Minnesota can't even
compare.
>Mr. Davis might like to visit South Korea. Shopping en masse as an art form
has been brought to great distinction there. Designer clothes are set out in
mammoth piles in blocks long+wide stores; women do nothing in South Korea but
buy clothes & plan large meals; the low-rent surrealist shopkeepers are rich
as hell, spangled with huge rings, diamonds & flashy outfits. I'm only
reporting this second-hand
and this is not a regional put-down (after what I've been through regarding
poor lil Minnesota I'm heading to Korea to sho till I dro).
- Henry Gould
Henry does a good job describing (How cd it be only second-hand--did you
dream it?), I am guessing, either the old open-air markets that open booths
off wholesale warehouses near the Great South Gate (Namdaemun) or the
underground arcades near the Great East Gate (Tongdaemun); these are
primarily frequented by older working-class and lower middle-class housewives
and yes the bustle is incredible--more kitsch than surreal, however, I wd
suggest. But it's also mainly women who run the shops--women who hardly
have the leisure to shop for clothes or plan big meals. Or the description
could be of the Itaewon shopping district near the U.S. 8th Army compound--it
peaked around the '88 Olympics due to the influx of tourists, after many
fruitful years as the arcade for many of the more than 30,000 US troops in S
Korea, as well as a diverse group of other foreigners due to the low prices,
understanding of what ype of tourist kitsch sells, willingness to bargain,
and (perhaps most importantly) sufficient English and Japanese language
knowledge of the shopkeepers: Japanese businessmen from the karaoke bars
further up the avenue, Korean American kids visiting for the summer,
diplomatic corps. Hot items were stuffed animaux and T-shirts, factory outlet
Reeboks and Nikes, and inexpensive leather goods. But the 90's proliferation
of other swankier shopping areas has been causing Itaewon to fade quickly
over the last few years--it's almost seen as a remnant of an older time when
people felt they had to cater more to the US Army.
The most stupendous shopping areas are the many Crystal City-like
department store complexes--some in the old downtown area near City Hall
(Shich'ong), but mainly in the nouveau riche suburbs of Kangnam (literally,
South of the River, the Han River), which is also where the catastrophe of
the Sampoong Department Store collapse happened last summer. These have a
completely different, elegant atmosphere, smartly uniformed, perfectly
cosmeticized and anorexic salesgals, and very upscale merchandise (Printemps
is also there, by the way) that dazzle and dizzy. I'm sorry to keep
referring to work I've edited, but for the only serious discussion in English
of these new shopping palaces--which are not surreal, but hyper-real
(simulated waterfalls and mountain goats, etc.)--please see Kang Nae-hui's
extended Baudrillard/Benjamin-inspired analysis of the supermall Lotte World
(beautifully accompanied by Eugene Ahn's photographs) in _Muae: a journal of
transcultural production_ (available from SPD or directly from me at a 20%
discount--Jordan has a copy, I think). Kang tries to tell you what it really
means to "sho till you dro" in Seoul today--to go spending through a maze
with many entrees and no exit.
Heard on NPR that there are 42 shopping malls in Bangkok. Maybe the "same"
thing's happening there. The Poetics list's "my favorite region of the U.S."
thread--it made a big mall of America, I think. But I always thought a
place's particular sexualities--I'm not being abstract, I just mean how and
where sex is presented/had there--were always so important to how we feel
about it, even in the time of AIDS, so I wonder why that was never mentioned.
Or is it only foreign cities that we normally speak of that way (aside from
San Francisco and Miami?)? Japanese tourists can get very detailed sex
guides to every major American city. A Japanese Navy training ship docked in
New York harbor a few summers ago and a lot of its sailors on shore-leave
seemed to be consulting these books as they planned their day, escaping the
July heat and sidewalks in cool dark bars. Detailed, beautifully veined
streetmaps with XXX peep show parlors and strip joints indicated rather than
restaurants, museums, and famous skyscrapers. I sat near them and tried to
be helpful, wanting mainly to practice my spoken Japanese. Kankoku jyosei ga
daisuki desu ka? America no onna wa ookii desu ne. Felt like a lightweight
pimp--of my beloved New York!--but they already knew more than me anyway.
The bearded captain in immaculate white and heavy epaulets bought me a beer
and left me there watching a Mets game. Howard Johnson was still playing
left field, no more dingers in his bat, and already playing like someone on
the trading block.
Walter K. Lew
WKL888@AOL.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 18:01:13 -0700
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: writing through -Reply -Reply
>>Someone like John Taggart is a
>>very musical writer, whereas Creeley is not, particularly (there is a
>>sublime mental music in Creeley, but no musical composition, as seems
>>to be the case with JT).
>
>
>Have to disagree, thinking Creeley is a most musical writer, even though the
>music may be more minimal and less repetitive than in Taggart, more akin to
>certain moments in composers as diverse as Stravinsky and John Cage, whereas
>Taggart's music is more recognizable in his repeating patterns, building
>constantly. I greatly admire the work of both Creeley & Taggart, but it
>seems like to not think of Creeley as musical is to cut out a great
>tradition of avant-garde music of our century.
>
>Creeley has a magnificent ear for both speech & abstract patterns in
>language. Is this not music?
Charles is right, I think. For years I have not been able to recite, for
instance
In the court-
yard at midnight, at
midnight. The moon is
locked in itself, to
a man a
familiar thing.
, without singing it, singing it.
"A glove is something else again."
--W.D. Snodgrass
George Bowering.
2499 West 37th Ave.,
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 16:44:51 -1000
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Poets and Writers: A Definitive Scientific Study (fwd)
Hmmm. Chuckle? Poets not writers as well? Gab.
>
> ^Poets less depressed than writers, study finds@
> LONDON, April 30 (Reuter) - Poets are crazier than authors
> or playwrights, but less likely to become depressed or
> alcoholics, a British psychiatrist reported on Tuesday.
> It could be because of the way their imaginations work, Dr
> Felix Post, who wrote the study in the British Journal of
> Psychiatry, said.
> Post examined the cases of 100 famous British and American
> writers and poets by looking at their biographies. Many good
> biographies, he said, provided enough detail to do an accurate
> psychiatric analysis.
> ``They've got to be really good biographies,'' Post, a
> retired psychiatric consultant, said in an interview.
> He found in a previous study that writers, as a group,
> tended to have more mental and emotional problems than other
> people -- politicians or scientists, for example.
> But poets did not seem to follow the trend. ``The poets were
> less unstable and had fewer depressions than the others.''
> Careful analysis confirmed this. The poets, including Edgar
> Allan Poe and Robert Graves, had more mood swings and manic
> depressions requiring hospitalisation.
> But they were less likely than the writers, who included
> Ernest Hemingway and Jack London, to die young or be
> promiscuous. Only 31 percent of the poets were alcoholics,
> compared to 54 percent of playwrights.
> It seems writing of any sort is linked to poor mental
> health. Psychosis or depression was evident in 80 percent of
> poets, 80.5 percent of novelists and 87.5 percent of
> playwrights.
> Half the poets failed to ever achieve ``complete sexual
> union,'' while 42 percent of playwrights were known for their
> sexual promiscuity.
> Post said it could be down to personality differences, or
> the way writers and poets work.
> ``I speculate that it is the imagination of novelists and
> playwrights, who are far more concerned with intimate human fate
> -- they've got to identify and empathise with their
> characters,'' Post said. ``They have greater stress in their
> writing.''
> As for the poets: ``They don't deal with human fate. They
> just describe their religious feelings or their love.''
> Post said his study did not include women writers as women
> tend to have different patterns of mental illness from men and
> his study period, starting in 1840, had too few women writers.
> ^REUTER@
> Reut10:30 04-30-96
>
>
>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 03:27:53 GMT
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From: Tom Beard <beard@MET.CO.NZ>
Subject: the sound of Creeley
George, when you wrote:
>Charles is right, I think. For years I have not been able to recite, for
>instance
>
>In the court-
>yard at midnight, at
>
>midnight. The moon is
>locked in itself, to
>
>a man a
>familiar thing.
>
>, without singing it, singing it.
I did a double take, having just this morning sent off a review of some Bill
Manhire books that quoted this poem as an example of Creeley's influence. Near
the beginning of the review I wrote this re Manhire's "singing":
----------------
The iconography of song has always been important in Manhire's poetry, and it
is surprising that this has been little mentioned until recently. The titles of
both <i>Sheet Music</i> and <i>My Sunshine</i>, and the guitar on the cover of
the latter, make this connection explicit, and songs appear throughout <i>My
Sunshine</i>, particularly in its third section.
But how does Manhire sing? Certainly not in the form of rhymed ballads...
The songs that I hear in Manhire's poetry, especially his earlier work, are
the songs that one sings to oneself; that one hums, whistles or prays under
one's breath; or that one whispers to a lover, "lacking an audience, / but
blessing the air". Perhaps this explains their "hermetic" quality: they are
from a private, not a public space. Andrew Johnston has argued persuasively
that lyric poems exist in a social space "that exists between or among people
who are in a certain state of alertness, between readers, or listeners", but
until recently Manhire's poetry has shied away from this space. To the reader,
the words no longer mean what they did in the poet's private space, but the
poems retain a fierce energy, enabling them to colonize the reader, who may be
unable to explain them. The version of "The White Pebble" that lives in my head
may be different from anyone else's, but that may be why I find it so powerful
- it has become my poem.
-----------------
To some extent, I think this applies to Creeley as well - a private kind of
music (though complicated by the presence of reader/listener) that is more
subtle than the obviously _musical_ style that some poets affect.
Tom Beard.