========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 07:26:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: academic poet/ry Maria, but what if you DID encounter such students? Is it a one-way street? Like can one eat one's "avant-garde" desert before? I mean dessert.... Or is it possible that a poet who comes to the avant-garde stuff without ever having access to, or interest in, the mainstream tradition (western) (dying?), will have been spared an un-necessary immersion in stuffy stuff ? That "experiment" includes "tradition" more than vice versa--- I'm surprised you haven't encountered such students... I wonder what you would have done with me had I been your student.... cs ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 04:14:02 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: TO field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Ron Silliman Subject: Authors & Publishers Fight Photocopy Ruling The Authors Guild American Society of Journalists and Authors (ASJA) Text and Academic Authors Association (TAAA) The Authors Registry FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE February 28, 1996 AUTHORS' GROUPS BACK PUBLISHERS IN FIGHTING RULING THAT `COURSEPACK' PHOTOCOPYING NEEDS NO PERMISSION In a rare instance of partnership, authors and publishers, who frequently face off in angry disputes about who owns what, this week joined forces to call for the overturn of a federal court decision permitting unrestricted photocopying of portions of books and articles for university "coursepacks" without payment to copyright holders. Authors' organizations representing tens of thousands of writers filed a "friend of the court" brief in support of publishers seeking a rehearing of what the authors termed a "dangerous" copyright decision handed down February 12 by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit. The authors took particular issue with the court's finding, in a 2-to-1 decision, that the standard practice of paying for licenses to make such photocopies is not an incentive for authors to write. The organizations involved are three national writers' groups--the Authors Guild, the American Society of Journalists and Authors (ASJA), and the Text and Academic Authors Association (TAAA)--and the Authors Registry, the new royalty collection and licensing agency endorsed by more than 30 writers' groups and 95 literary agencies. At issue is a case in which Princeton University Press, Macmillan and St. Martin's Press sued Michigan Document Services, a copyshop specializing in coursepacks--professors' custom-ordered anthologies of excerpts from published works, which are increasingly taking the place of textbooks for college courses. Copyshops regularly obtain permissions and pay fees to reproduce copyrighted works, but the Michigan shop boasted to professors that it would make coursepacks with "No Delays Waiting for Permission." The appeals court majority, reversing a lower court ruling, declared the permissionless photocopying legal. The "friend of the court" brief, prepared by Authors Guild attorneys, assured the court that compensation is indeed an incentive to writers, and that depriving publishers of their share of permissions income would also hurt writers by leading to fewer published works. The authors' groups pointed to their long efforts to stop uncompensated photocopying and asked the court, "What else could account for the immediate impact of the Authors Registry, in which over 50,000 authors are registered for collection, accounting and payment of royalties and fees?" A decision on rehearing the case is expected in March. ### Contacts: Authors Guild - Kay Murray, 212-563-5904 ASJA - Dan Carlinsky, 212-861-2526 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 03:06:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: academic poet/ry Emily, I wonder (really--not being facetious) why the poetry & poets that are least accepted (promoted, hired, what-have-you) by the academe are the ones whose work can rarely be discussed w/o using "academic" language or fully appreciated w/o having a theory background? It seems off to call L=Apo "outsider" poetry, kind of, don't it? Isn't it, relative to the masses (some cartoon vision of an audience-at-large), more insider than insider? More academe than academe?" It's historical. In the 1950s when the New Critics consolidated their control over the English curriculum, the creative writing movement grew up as a place where poets (and fiction writers) did not have to pretend to be new critics (especially true in Iowa, which had some heavy N. Crit. faculty as I dimly recall). Once the theory wave hit (two decades later), it really became a bastion of reaction to the rest of the department. In Syracuse they wanted to make theory an undergrad requirement several years ago and had to do something like make creative writing its own separate dept in order to get the votes to do so. The idea of langpo as "insider" writing extends a critique that goes back as far as the troubadors, who composed their "trobar clus" as poetry for their fellow poets rather than the works they intended for larger audiences. I fear that writing that requires writers and readers both to be on their toes will always be considered such. Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 02:58:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: College fetish DiPalma taught there in the late 1960s, early '70s. Howard McCord ran the writing program there then and may still for all I know. McCord was a fairly interesting poet whose work seems to have disappeared entirely from print over the past two decades. No school can touch Reed back when it produced, at once, Whalen, Snyder and Welch, for poets-to-total-class-size. Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 22:07:46 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Spring issue of SPT newsletter This is Dodie Bellamy again. The Spring, 1996 (#17) issue of the Small Press Traffic newsletter will be printed this weekend and bulk-mailed next week. This is your last chance to sign up for a free copy of the newsletter, cunningly called _Traffic_. Though the newsletter is for members I've decided that due to our expanded reviews section, to offer subscriptions to people living outside the San Francisco Bay area. This first issue is free to anyone who asks--the next three issues can be had at the low subscription rate of $10. Make checks payable to Small Press Traffic and send to: Small Press Traffic at New College 741 Valencia Street San Francisco, CA 94110 This issue features reviews from many people on the Poetics List, plus a couple non-high tech types: Jonathan Brannen on Gil Ott Louis Cabri on Lyn Hejinian and Kit Robinson David Clippinger on William Bronk Lisa Cooper on Mei-Mei Berssenbrugge Maria Damon on Kathleen Fraser and Bev Dahlen Ben Friedlander on Gerrit Lansing Loss Glazier on Karen MacCormack Janet Gray on Sheila Murphy Marisa Januzzi on Ed Foster's _Postmodern Poetry_ and _Primary Trouble_ Kevin Magee on Dodie Bellamy (me!) and Sam D'Allesandro Ange Mlinko on Alice Notley and Stephen Jonas Albert Mobilio on Joseph Donahue Mark Scroggins on Nathaniel Mackey and Jack Spicer Tom Vogler on Ron Silliman I just read the whole issue from cover to cover. It's a Good Read. And reviewers: thanks a million for all your hard work. You'll be getting your copies soon. Those of you who have inquired about, or signed up for reviewing books for the Summer issue of _Traffic_, I'll be getting in touch with you next week. I appreciate your patience. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 16:54:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Howard Shoemaker Subject: sciku In-Reply-To: <199602290503.AAA19813@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> from "Automatic digest processor" at Feb 29, 96 00:01:13 am Since i started the whole damn renga thing once upon a time (Yup--check the archives--that first books/dreams line is my most famous flicker in posey's eternal flame) i consider myself the list's godfather of bastard imperialist forms. So here's something i wrote sort of in accordance with the guidelines of the SciFaiku Manifesto (http://www.crew.umich.edu/ ~brink/poetry/haikuhabitat.html) and sort of thinking about my post on scanning brains/scanning poems. But really it's more a sciku or tekku: slow modem brain slow like last leaf tentative fall of seventeen bits Let the craze begin! steve ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 21:19:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: scanning brains/ scanning poems In-Reply-To: <199602292051.PAA63239@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU> YES, exactly, but why is no one saying or thinking this outside of this list and a few obscure corners. The media and the academy and the drug companies (and the drug companies) certainly don't. 90% of people who feel bad ask for and get a pill, Part of the information gap might be the silence of those who hold an opposing view? Thanks for starting the renga BTW. It has been an experience. best, tom bell On Thu, 29 Feb 1996, Steven Howard Shoemaker wrote: > Tom Bell writes: > > Does this mean that poetry can change the way a reader > or writer's brain works?" > > > Sure it can, and i'm a bit surprised by the question, by the tentativeness > of that groping for "scientific" confirmation of what we know to be true. > No question that reading all that poetry makes us different people, changes > the kinds of organisms we are. But to stick with "science" or "biology," > the question arises from a persistent reification, common to popular > discourse, of the "biological" as a kind of lumpy given. In fact, we > ... > steve shoemaker > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 11:57:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lisa Samuels Subject: Re: Adorno In-Reply-To: <199602281612.LAA25832@mail.erols.com> from "Emily Lloyd" at Feb 28, 96 11:12:19 am according to Emily Lloyd: > > "I do not doubt the egos of sports stars who discourage newspaper boys from > asking questions about the sport." > > --E(xtra!Extra!) > > > Maybe the potential for being bashed, silenced, or "publicly humiliated" > keeps some women from joining the list. > (from one who joined the list but rarely posts) it's more like wanting to write only when i feel i have something real to say. figuring out the positions of various groups and individuals seems an ongoing (not to say futile, for it's interesting to watch the shifts) exercise in establishing and overthrowing and re-establishing what's important (at least for that particular discursive moment). i have no insistent stance to promote, nobody to persuade, *here*. so i just listen. also, new to this world (no silliman i), i feel a bit like the betrothed sitting in the living room with the beloved's family. you'd better believe i'm just going to listen and figure out how all these people manage to get along. lisa samuels ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 20:09:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Foley Subject: none I wrote a longish note after reading Don Byrd's comments, and all of today's back & forth about academic poetry, but all I really want to say is this: the differences among poets are small, so far as they all are poets. That you write poems must matter more than what school (of thought) you are affiliated with, what college you attended, what year you were born in. From Shakespeare to Keats is a breath, from Keats to us another, that is all. It is all poetry. Poets must write all of it. I am embarassed to have let myself fall into the usual polemics, the pastime of "cheering" for one team or another, as Don Byrd wisely puts it. I do want to understand the poems, the poetries I cannot yet, but I have gone about it clumsily. I do hope to be able to contribute something to this discussion, but I for one will amend my tone. Pat Foley ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 13:48:17 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: academic poet/ry Dear Emily, I have a friend accessible only on snail-mail who finds that Shaks sonnets have been emended and emended without just cause in academia for a long time, & that the way that they are printed in first( early ?) edition suggests a structuring of the sequence that all the academics he knows want to ignore. I'll try get some statement out of him for you on this to put on the e sometime fairly soon. But in his experience the one thing you won't get from academia is a good intro to Shaks sonnets. So he tells me, at length, in conversation. This puts a long bony finger into the ribs. best Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 10:03:18 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Keith Tuma Subject: Re: dead horses, live theories In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 29 Feb 1996 18:12:40 -0500 from David Kellogg writes: "I know why I read poetry, but I know plenty of people who don't read any, and they don't seem to be deprived. It's damned presumptuous to write as though they are, or to suggest that the reasons why poetry is important to ME will be important to anybody else." When you're writing on Foucault and BH Smith and Bourdieu, David, aren't you trying to convince your potential readers that it might be a good thing to pay attention to what you're saying and what (in your view) they're saying-- about "taste," about contingencies of value, etc.? What makes that writing less presumptuous? Isn't the real problem here not the professing of taste per se but the authoritativeness of tone used to profess? I'm not *really* surprised that people want to know who you read--are you? I mean, to follow this logic to its endpoint, it's presumptuous to write at all, or to breathe-- you're grabbing some oxygen others clearly have their own use for. Keith Tuma ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 09:39:12 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: dead horses, live theories david kellogg has glossed this issue of academic theorizing wisely... yes---the irony of rejecting theoretically-inclined poets (or intellectuals, for that matter) in the academic meat market on the basis of what don byrd has identified as "taste" is that it is precisely the category of the "poetic" that is thereby accorded primacy in literary (-historical) studies... and again, as don indicates, this includes taste-driven views of theory (theory, that is, as anything but practice---let's call it a connoisseurship of theory), and is often accomplished w/o any critical intervention at all vis-a-vis those for whom the term has a direct resonance---poets, poetry theorists, etc... at the same time, creative writers thus safeguard their status as ultimate legislators of taste... i would hasten to add that, though the national book circle critics award will most certainly attract more academic acclaim than most scholarly awards, the stipulation in mla job ads of "national publications required" is ONLY used for creative writing positions... that is, creative writers are in this regard working under much more exclusionary criteria.. i could make a list of critical works that riff on things poetic but never, never mention poetry... in any case it's damned difficult, as david sez, even to *talk* poetry with most of my colleagues, and methinks this is less a matter of their willful resistance than of their preparation in grad. school, the emphasis in those quarters... now it's worth pointing out here that there *is*, within composition studies (as opposed to literary studies per se), a growing constituency of folks for whom poetry and poetics means just that... i'm thinking, for example, of wendy bishop, derek owens (whose book was cited on this list a couple of weeks back), and eve shelnutt... what's interesting here is that these latter three scholars foreground the *teaching* of writing as opposed to the study of literature... hence the institutional status of creative writing is something about which each is well-informed... and note that jed rasula's _the american poetry wax museum_ is itself on the ncte (that's 'national council of teachers of english') series, "refiguring english studies," whose series editor is none other than steve north (whose _the making of knowledge in composition: portrait of an emerging field_ (boynton-cook) had a rather profound effect on composition studies)... joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 11:17:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Five Get Overexcited "Well Chris I think it would be wise for a poet to write in as many of the different affects that show up during the day.. to look as much as possible like a normal person, eventually.. viz your shakespeare or my breathing keats.." --from Tony Adorno's first novel, _Deipnosophistry_, republished last year by Red & Blue.. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 11:43:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Donald J. Byrd" Subject: Re: academic poet/ry Comments: To: Ron Silliman In-Reply-To: <199603011106.DAA12072@ix2.ix.netcom.com> Ron's account of the anti-intellectualism of the Iowa- inspired creative writing programs (which is to say nearly all creative writing programs) is quite correct. Basically, the maker of new critical objects (poems, stories, whatever) was supposed to be a kind of idiot savant. The primary qualifications were an unhappy childhood, binge drinking, and impeccable taste. It was the critic's task to do the socially responsible task of explaining how this genius adolescent was performing as an emotional lightning rod for the otherwise responsible adults of a demanding society. The underlying assumption that has been in many of the postings--academic=difficult or requiring a significant amount of information not provide by the text itself, non-academic= easy to read--simply has it backwards. The function of the American academy is not to be in the vanguard of learning. It's functions are (1) for the sciences to do research that is necessary but not related to immediate profits and (2) to instruct the undergraduates in the prevailing values. The whole idea is to make it all as simple as possible for young people, who really aren't very interested (and rightly so, as what they are typically asked to learn is an attack on their vitality). Early on in the move to theory, Robert Scholes argued that since we cannot get our students to read as many books as we would like, we will teach them the theory.... If they can get the general theory, they won't have to know so damned many examples. It all backfired in a way that is somewhat amusing. Theory turned out to be a kind of tar baby, and the academic hands got stuck to it. It's not a matter of knowing the theory (the academic thing), it is a matter of_ using_ the theory. Consider the way, Gertrude Stein used William James and Alfred North Whitehead (she was a student of one and friend of the other) or the way Proust used Bergson, or Olson used Whitehead, or even the way Eliot used F.H. Bradley. In fact, most of the theories in academia are (appropriately enough) theories of reading (i.e. consumption) or they are made into theories of reading. These are really of no use for writer's. A writer's reading is a whole other matter. Don Byrd ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 12:32:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: dead horses, live theories In-Reply-To: On Fri, 1 Mar 1996, Keith Tuma wrote: > When you're writing on Foucault and BH Smith and Bourdieu, David, aren't you > trying to convince your potential readers that it might be a good thing to > pay attention to what you're saying and what (in your view) they're saying-- > about "taste," about contingencies of value, etc.? What makes that writing > less presumptuous? Isn't the real problem here not the professing of taste > per se but the authoritativeness of tone used to profess? I'm not *really* > surprised that people want to know who you read--are you? I mean, to follow > this logic to its endpoint, it's presumptuous to write at all, or to breathe-- > you're grabbing some oxygen others clearly have their own use for. Dear Keith, You're right: the presumptousness lies in the mode of address, not in the idea of preference as such. I wasn't making myself clear. But I'm sticking to my relativist guns. We all have tastes, sure, they're all socially & historically constructed ("all the way down," as it were), and of course I prefer it if other people's values correspond *at some level* to my own. (Though this can be boring also). So yes, I think that, as you nicely put it, "it might be a good thing if" etc. etc. What I was trying to address, perhaps not very well, was the network of expectation in the academy about contemporary poetry, a network of expectation that ASSUMES that if you're in contemporary poetry well of COURSE you're going to confirm or challenge people's tastes -- that's what academics in poetry DO, isn't it? In other words, enter the taste-making game of poetry or bail. Moreover, do it on absolutist terms. In my experience, it's more or less assumed that the theoretical work you do will have some direct relation to this, that the final mission of theory in contemporary poetry is to say, "Poet A is the bee's knees," or Poet X beats Poet Y, or Poetry is better than television because _________. And not theorize it, not say, "I seem to choose poet A over poet B because of certain elements in my own history and construction as a subject. This may not work for you." My current work is precisely about the forms of evaluation current in the poetry biz, and I think it sometimes -- not always, I'm admittedly overstating it a bit -- freaks people out some for those reasons. I could think of other kinds of work that would be equally or more estranged, most of it falling under the rubric of some form or another of cultural studies or ethnographic writing. (Like Maria D's book). Such works are piss people off not because they express opinions, but because they situate their own position in the field of socially constructed taste. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 684-6277 There is some excitement in one corner, but most of the ghosts are merely shaking their heads. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 11:50:30 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Christopher J. Beach" Subject: Re: dead horses, live theories In-Reply-To: <960228032425_433549859@emout08.mail.aol.com> Ron--Good clarifications on the complexities of class. Rod--I like you idea of "synchronicity" rather than simply class having to do with why so many poets were at a particular institution at a particular time. Harvard, in particular, has a history of having students who are intellectually inclined but not at all from privileged backgrounds. (My father-in-law was one). There is a lure about places like Harvard and Berkeley that is not merely class-defined. Perhaps it's historical, perhaps its literary or poetic. This would be a very interesting book, actually (the history of Harvard and twentieth century American poetry). Why has Princeton, to use your example, produced so many fewer poets. Did Palmer, Hejinian and Bernstein know about the poetic tradition of Harvard before deciding to go there? Did it play a role in their decision? Does Harvard's admissions policy place more of an emphasis on poetic talent in admitting students than, say, Princeton's? Perhaps--I don't know. But all of these would be relevant questions, as would questions of how different institutions are perceived within different communities: ie. Jewish, African-American, gay, poetic, intellectual. Chris B On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, Rod Smith wrote: > NEW Ziolkowski, Moxley, & Davies YES! > > Ron-- > Liked yr post on class very much. Two of my heroes, Cage & Oppen, were > college drop outs. > > Chris B-- > As I said, the Harvard thing isn't something I wld overemphasize, however, > you asked who among G1 went there -- Bernstein, Hejinian, & Palmer all went > there. > Possibly the three biggest name language poets (I know I know Michael's not a > language poet). Andrews > was there as a grad student. & Susan Howe's father taught there, was head of > the Eng Dept. for a number of years I believe. Aside from Olson, Ashbery, > O'Hara, Creeley was also there during WWII. & Burroghs I think dropped out? > Pretty good school I'd say. Any "major poets" go to Princeton? Actually, the > question falls somewhere between "privilege" & some kind of odd > synchronicity-- Providence & the Bay area being two other places that seem to > have harbored more than any reasonably expected share of poetic talent. > Actually, a populace flows through the yard. . . > > Chris S-- > I think the question of why L-poets were more politically radical, at least > overtly, than NYS (other than just "sensibility") had to do with what was > going on in the universities generally in the seventies/early eighties-- > "theory" was taking over, so it was something they engaged & did it quite > well I believe. But as I think has been sd here before, it, theory, means > something quite different now. > > I'm sorry if I seemed too dismissive of the M, Chris. But I think my > statement of the general reaction to their first few manifestoes was > accurate. I also said I thought a number of the poems they published were > good. & I've said I like Pam R's work, 'specially the Burning Deck book. & I > also think Lew D's poem in oblek 12 is interesting. I understand concerns abt > divisiveness > but it shouldn't stop one from stating opinions, should it? OK, maybe some > opinions some of the time. . . > > Maybe we can't do what the Allen did because they already did it for us, but > you can be sure that if we stop for even a short while it wld have to be done > all over again. & good point you made abt the beats, someone sd somewhere > "they weren't high school drop outs, they were grad school drop outs!" > > --Rod > > PS-- the term "biggest name" above being based on my perception of who's > known, & even occasionally read, outside of their respective communities. > Armantrout, Silliman, Scalapino being examples of "big names" that didn't go > to Harvard. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 13:51:40 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Spring issue of SPT newsletter Congratulations on the issue, Dodie. I look forward to seeing the issue, and of course the chax press reviews. Will I receive a few? Will there be extras I can buy? Also, would it be permissible (and I could do this later, say after a month or so) to put some or all reviews on a chax press web site? Also, did you get plenty of reviewers for the next newsletter? I know I volunteered to review something if you wished, but I didn't hear back from you, so I assumed you already had everything covered. love to you, charles ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 13:53:00 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Spring issue of SPT newsletter I did it again, and hit reply to send a message a second ago (and one which sounds very silly) to the poetics list, when I meant to send it directly to dodie bellamy. very sorry, charles ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 15:52:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: dead horses, live theories As much as it pains a Columbia grad to say so, Princeton produced some fine poets.. John Koethe, John Godfrey, Lewis MacAdams.. in addition to those already mentioned.. of course it pleases a CU grad to note that Galway Kinnell, W. S. Merwin and others dealt with odd verbs like "bicker" on a regular basis.. jd ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 16:23:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: academic poet/ry chris s: hypothetically, of course there are students who know the avantgarde and not the more conventional. i just haven't encountered them. except for maybe one, who teaches me more than i teach him. he joined the POETRIX list for a while, then discovered Zizek and unsubbed.--maria d ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 16:24:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: dead horses, live theories, bodies trans sending academic poet/ry >Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 13:03:25 -0800 >To: jdavis@panix.com >From: Steve Carll >Subject: dead horses, live theories, bodies trans sending academic > poet/ry Chris Stroffolino's post on this topic hit the nail on the head for me, with the clarification made by Rod and Mark that critique need not be a divisive tactic (and I know you knew that, Chris). There are all kinds of ways aesthetic positions might possibly interact with political ones. One of the things that cracks me up about reading avant-garde manifestos is how they're always calling for these radical changes in the way we look at art, and when you get further down into the specifics, they're not saying anything that different than the last manifesto that came down the pike from the last avant-garde group that's now considered an abhorrent sell-out for whatever reason. (I'm thinking of a book by Herschel Chipp called _Theories of Modern Art_, which concentrates on 20th-century painting mostly, but the idea is the same.) But these small differences are defended to the hilt by people who've made their pet theory inextricable from their identity, and who therefore can't admit that there's room for any other perspective. Talk about "totalization"! This is by no means some oblique attack on anyone, either, so no jumping to conclusions out there! Emily, Why is needing to slow down and read carefully a sign that there's something wrong? I'm not sure if an academic background is as necessary as an attentive eye and ear. Certainly whatever intelligence you do have and have developed, whether through schooling or other means, is going to be challenged by experimental poetry; I think that's what the experiment is about--taking language deeper than intelligence, into consciousness or the psyche or whatever you might call it. My own experience as a reader is that I'm more interested in poetry which challenges me to become a better reader, a better thinker, a better listener. If it only reinforces preexisting brain patterns (which might make it easy to understand and "identify with") then it's ultimately disposable. Of course, if there's no point of entry into the poem whatsoever, that's a problem too--the challenge becomes a threat (sort of.) Tom, could you elaborate on your intriguing, provocative Levinas quote a bit? How is the body manifest as a contestation of the attribution of meaning? And is this contestation unique to the body? The body seems to me to ground meaning as much as defy it, and it seems to me that similar claims could be made for any phenomenon. Maybe I should just read the Levinas: feel free to tell me so. At 08:26 PM 2/27/96 -0500, Patrick Foley wrote: >I will even try >to go along with the poem not being about anything at all --- which I suspect >is the secret handshake on this list. It's not exactly that it's about "nothing at all", really. It's just that usually when we ask "what's this poem "about", we're looking for a single thing that the poem's reducible to, and that's what I think most folks on this list would resist. The poem's "aboutness" flies off in a million different directions in the face of attempts to seize it thus. >But I'm going to have trouble if the poem's language >is not, in those circumstances, expected to do everything language does, and >that includes reference, boys. What Wittgenstein called how language & the >world _fit_. Granted. But again, the fit's not always comfortable. The coat of language is reversible, for example. One-to-one reference is not a given; and in this circumstance-- > --- it is natural to assume the poet is in his own head, or at least >that he is caressing and not grasping the things of the world (Kafka's >distinction, and Rilke's too, I think). --not necessarily. Would it be unnatural to make no assumption at all, or to assume that there's been a typographical error or a pun we don't get but might or a deliberate joke played on us by the poet? This is what leading the reader into an experience with language is about. > I just don't want to hear a lot of talk >about "ontological" this and that, when we could be talking about the poem. Does the poem not partake of ontology? Steve ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 17:16:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Smith Subject: Re: Oppen Rod Smith wrote: "Off the global politics of wittle poets topic-- re Oppen-- there seems to me a fairly large shift in his work after _Of Being Numerous_ -- I love all his work, but the late books particularly -- he seems, perhaps, to have let go of a certain kind of sense in favor of another. Reminiscent perhaps of the first book, but possibly effected by Duncan's ear? An even further opening of the open text? That kind of fluidity." I'm not sure I understand what you mean here by a letting go "of a certain kind of sense in favor of another." The late work seems an intensification of the previous. Though Oppen admired & read Duncan with interest, I think the syntactic & rhythmic innovations in the late work were result of further refinement & development of all that had gone before. Oppen certainly wasn't after what he referred to as RD's "honey." Your suggestion is interesting though as to what Oppen might have appropriated from RD as his work was changing during the period following _Of Being Numerous_. He did make contact with contact Duncan when they moved back to SF. You're probably aware of these, but for anyone here who isn't, there are a few essays on Oppen that deal with the late work & ground it usefully in the earlier: John Taggart's "Deep Jewels: Oppen's _Seascape: Needle's Eye_" (Ironwood 26) & one of the best pieces written on GO, Taggart's "To Go Down To Go Into" (Ironwood 31/32); Ron Silliman's (in more general terms) "The Shipwreck Of The Singular" (Temblor 5) & Ron's remarks on Oppen's techniques in "Third phase Objectivism" (Paideuma 10.1) are very useful in examining the late work. (Sure wish someone would print Rachel duPlessis' piece on the function of the 'gaps' in Oppen & Blaser that she read at the Blaser conference last year.) Charles Smith ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 16:28:45 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Brannen Subject: Re: dead classes It might be useful to note that Ashbery, O'Hara, Creeley, Hall, etc. were attending Harvard in a post-WWII context. O'Hara, and I think Hall, were able to go to Harvard because, as veterans, the GI Bill picked up the tuition. An influx of GI Bill students had an impact on Harvard at that time. They were older and tended to be from less priviledged backgrounds. I suspect that Yale during this period was more reticent about admitting GI Bill students. Nor, do I sense that O'Hara and Creeley had a particularly high opinion of Harvard. That there were a number of interesting people there is as much an accident of time as an accident of place. >sure, it probably is dopey to compare poets on the basis of what college >they went to. it is sort of like saying, well, that one's from alabama >and this one from mississippi, what's the difference. the distinctions >fuzz up the further away you are. nonetheless, it seems interesting to >me that at the same time harvard students included poets ashbery, o'hara, >creeley, donald hall, robert bly, the yale university english department >was producing a steady stream of future cia types. james angleton, >one-time editor of furioso and crazed mole-hunter, being only the most >famous. the institutions' sensibilities have to affected these outcomes. > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 16:28:47 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Brannen Subject: Re: academic poet/ry >& there's no excuse for the way derrida writes when his central ideas could be >articulated in a pamphlet. > >Em > Em, I've been enjoying your comments, so I don't want you to feel unwelcomed when I say that your statement re: Derrida reminds me of someone saying that Cliff Notes are preferable to the actual book. There is an excuse for the way Derrida wrote, it's called style. Best, jb ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 22:08:50 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: real dead bugs There is no excuse for Derrida's style, he was shot for it in Mexico in 1837, escaped death only because the spectacular one-eyed Robert Creeley spoke up about Harvard professor #16 (Rasmussen : "Intro to Realism in Russian Folksong"). And I was with them, I suffered, I was the man oh man those chairs were made of plastic blue cheese. - Elron Hubbub ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 01:02:40 +1030 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carol or Jeremy Close Subject: Why is all this poetry stuff so damned popular, anyway. Why is all this poetry stuff so very popular, anyway? Or not? "helped before" Carol ------------------------------ sig of shame http://206.26.158.13/free/apronoffate.html ------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 09:39:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Golumbia Subject: Re: real dead bugs Henry Gould wrote: >There is no excuse for Derrida's style, >he was shot for it in Mexico in 1837, I thought it was, "he shot his wife for it in Tijuana/in 1969, aiming for her apple-shaped head," &c, &c -- dgolumbi@sas.upenn.edu David Golumbia ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 10:35:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian McHale Subject: Re: Oppen In-Reply-To: Message of 03/01/96 at 17:16:17 from CharSSmith@AOL.COM Charles Smith said he wished someone wd publish Rachel duPlessis' piece on gaps. I too admire it -- heard it in an earlier/different version at the Cornell conference last spring -- tried to get it from RAchel for "Poetics To- day," but it turns out there's meant to be some publication of materials from the BC conference, & it will appear there, though I don't know how soon. But it really is a splendid essay. Brian McHale ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 10:16:57 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: Oppen To follow up on Charles Smith's helpful info on essays regarding Oppen's later work: several of Taggart's essays on Oppen (and others on Zukofsky, Bronk, Andrews, Susan Howe, Duncan, Olson, Enslin...) are collected in _Songs of Degrees: Essays on Contemporary Poetry and Poetics_ (1994, U of Alabama Press, intro by Marjorie Perloff). Personally, I have found Taggart's essays, especially on Oppen and Zukofsky, to be very fine readings. I highly recommend _Songs of Degrees_. William Martin has a good review of _Songs of Degrees_ in the current _Taproot_. Hank Lazer ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 10:19:55 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: real dead bugs Actually, Jacques Derrida was aboard the Challenger & died in the explosion. I'm not sure who was here in Tuscaloosa this past Fall as Derrida as part of a celebration of his 65th birthday..... Hank Lazer ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 12:02:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: academic poet/ry Dear Tony Green--- In reference to the Shakespeare Sonnet thing--- Well, that was Laura Riding's argument in 1926. See her essay in "Survey Of Modernist Poetry" (a book co-authored with Graves). --in which she compares a Shakes sonnet (the lust one) to eecummings.... the essay has been an oft unacknowledged source for New Criticism (of course the NC's perverted it and institutionalized) and has been attacked by such as Jakobson and Shakespearean Stepehn Booth... I also detect its "influence" in Zukofsky's BOTTOM: ON SHAKES (though again unacknowledged).......best, chris stroffolino ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 13:30:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Smith Subject: Re: Oppen Thanks for reminding me of another really expensive book I'd like to have! Taggart on LZ is always useful. One of my favorites is "Come Shadow Come..." that appeared in American Poetry (I think?). I trust that's included in _Songs..._? ________________________ To follow up on Charles Smith's helpful info on essays regarding Oppen's later work: several of Taggart's essays on Oppen (and others on Zukofsky, Bronk, Andrews, Susan Howe, Duncan, Olson, Enslin...) are collected in _Songs of Degrees: Essays on Contemporary Poetry and Poetics_ (1994, U of Alabama Press, intro by Marjorie Perloff). Personally, I have found Taggart's essays, especially on Oppen and Zukofsky, to be very fine readings. I highly recommend _Songs of Degrees_. William Martin has a good review of _Songs of Degrees_ in the current _Taproot_. Hank Lazer ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 11:23:14 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: message in a bottle In-Reply-To: <199603020511.AAA04117@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> . . . along the trail left by the dream of power --Ingeborg Bachman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 11:30:48 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: G.I. Bill (gastro-intestinal) In-Reply-To: <199603020511.AAA04117@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> much has been written about effect of returning GIs on college & poetry in U.S. -- There's a curious phenomenon at the other end of that cycle -- Many of us who were drafted during the late sixties and early seventies (I did alternative service, which meant no GI benefits upon eventual release, by the way), have discovered the plum jobs in English Departments occupied by men who were not drafted -- This is one aspect of the lottery that wasn't immediately evident when we drew our lots back in sixty-whatever -- sort of an anti-GI-BILL for the anti-GIs, or we might call it General Hershey's revenge! I do not mention this as some seething resentnik (having, after all, a tenured job when many others do not) -- but as indication that there are many aspects of post-Viet Nam war academia that are not immediately apparent in discussions of the profession's history -- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 12:08:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Raphael Dlugonski Subject: ron silliman, Re: academic poet/ry I had ray dipalma (himself a grad of iowa) as a teacher at bowling green, and he exposed me to writers like stein, the ny york school, and the core language folks like yourself, people i had heard nothing of as an undergrad at cornell (presided over by a r ammons, w/ wm matthews and robert morgan) . another of ray's students was phil demise, who i havent heard from in years. mccords leadership of the program lasted a couple more years, then, tired of academic battling, he got into a less stressful spot at BG. his workcontinues to be published, but by smaller presses than before. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 15:49:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David W. Clippinger" Subject: Re: Creative Writing at Syracuse In-Reply-To: <199603020508.AAA25854@mailbox.syr.edu> As per Ron Silliman's note about the split at Syracuse University into a Creative Writing Department and the ETS (English and Textual Studies Department), it's true that the split was indeed a reaction to theory. Although, it is to the point now where the theory students do not read literature and the creative writers read nothing but a particular sect of poetry or fiction. A rather exacerbating morass. Most interestingly, John Taggart, who has been trying to get a job at Syracuse for years, has been abruptly passed over again and again because he was the poet on an MLA panel a few years ago encouraging other poets and creative writers that they should read theory. The crowd, composed of mostly creative writers, reacted with scorn. David Clippinger ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 15:52:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: Oppen Guess what I'd say I was hinting at in my Oppen question-- seems there's less of an interest in direct statement in the later work, more of an interest in movement/flow. Of course these are always side by side but I think at times one is more emphatic. I'd point to a poem like "Animula" or "The Book of Job &..." as examples of what I'm talking abt, & the last pg of "A Narrative" as possibly the first occurence of this in his work after returning to poetry. Poems like "The Hills" or basically all of "The Materials" is _saying_ something, working out a philosophical question or making an observation/description-- "Of Being Numerous" perhaps the most concerted attempt at this & the place where he begins to leave it off somewhat. The practice of quoting himself which shows up so strongly in _Primitive_ also causes this to happen for me-- the reiteration even at a distance seems to be saying "this is what I've come to know & largely what I can make with it is (a) music." The disappearance of punctuation in much of the later work & the increasing use of gaps within the line also point in this direction. I wouldn't call it an interest in nonsense, this emphasis I'm talking about, but rather an acceptance, perhaps, of the sense already made, & an opening out into music with it. But just now reading through _The Materials_ a bit, seems I may be wrong, that ear's there too. . . Rod ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 15:49:57 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Creative Writing at Syracuse > Most interestingly, John Taggart, who has >been trying to get a job at Syracuse for years, has been abruptly passed >over again and again because he was the poet on an MLA panel a few years >ago encouraging other poets and creative writers that they should read >theory. Sorry to continue this thread, as I think the work of Taggart's poetry, as well as his essays, such as those on Oppen, are considerably more important and interesting than whether or not he or anyone else has an academic job (except where that discussion gets into the historical ramifications of the GI Bill & the draft & class privelege, as in various recent posts) -- but this particular job note is rather shocking. If true, it demands that there were Syracuse writer/teachers on the MLA panel, or that the network of writers who would communicate with Syracuse writer/teachers to blackball a Taggart is extensive & devious beyond what I might have imagined, and I have imagined it as potentially quite extensive & devious. charles ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 20:14:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kenneth Goldsmith There has been something bothering me lately. What are those black things under seals eyes--could they be hairs? ============================================================================= Kenneth Goldsmith http://wfmu.org/~kennyg kgolds@panix.com kennyg@wfmu.org kgoldsmith@hardpress.com v. 212.260.4081 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 17:32:15 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Galen Cope Subject: Re: Oppen C. Smith writes: Thanks for reminding me of another really expensive book I'd like to have! Taggart on LZ is always useful. One of my favorites is "Come Shadow Come..." that appeared in American Poetry (I think?). I trust that's included in _Songs..._? Yes, it's in there -- and I add another high recommendation for Taggart's book. I just picked it up from the library a couple of days ago (coincidentally) -- in paperback, so it shouldn't be _too_ expensive... Also, I take it most here are familiar with duPlessis' essay in the "Man and Poet" volume dedicated to Oppen. I don't know that she explicitly engages any significant differences between earlier and later Oppen, but she does (if I remember correctly - I don't have the book and its been awhile) read Oppen with/against Pound with an ear to Oppen's fluidity in contrast to Pound's relative density. Very edifying, as I recall... Stephen Cope ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 10:59:07 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: G. S. Giscombe Can anyone help me out with an address (preferably e-mail) and maybe phone number for G. S. Giscombe? I'd like to contact him regarding his piece in the recent issue of ABR, "Maroons: Postmodernist Black Poetry." Thanks, Burt Kimmelman kimmelman@admin.njit.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 08:18:15 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: academic poet/ry Dear Chris, Thanks for the Riding note. I'll make sure my friend gets onto that. Even so he's reading the sonnets in groups in interesting ways as far as I know independent of Riding. And tells me that all the local Shaks specialists he's approached insist that the emended Sonnets hold. My point was that our academies are not always the best places to get introduced to old arts (let alone new ones). Over three decades and more I've witnessed often enough the perpetuation of views that evaporate on close inspection, accompanied by appeals to the authority of a consensus in the academy and derision for any would-be corrections. Is this something to do with the seemingly gang-like organization of academic institutions, that are particularly effective at exclusion of persons and especially of "new ideas"? re- the "works or acts of merit towards learning": "The works pertaining to the persons of learned men...are two: the reward and designation of readers in sciences alread extant and invented; and the reward and designation of writers and inquirers concerning any parts of learning not sufficiently laboured and prosecuted." Francis Bacon, Lord Verulam. The Advancement of Learning. BkII,6. (Everyman ed. p.63) Elsehwere he notices that the latter often get short shrift. (He has some interesting comments on the debate over theory in section 8 -- as on many of the issues that are under discussion here often.) He can be usefully consulted even now for "the images of men's wits and knowledges remain in books, exempted from the wrong of time, and capable of perpetual renovation." Likewise Shaks, but renovation is not necessarily accomplished by holding to old emendations. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 08:29:53 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: dead horses, live theories Don't tastes change? Aren't they (socially constructed) unexamined prejudices, because of an assumption that they are beyond examination? When that assumption is in place, learning tends not to proceed. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 14:41:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Golumbia Subject: Re: Riding Shakespeare Tony, I'm not sure about the politics of the Riding/Booth controversy, but Booth's edition of the Sonnets (U California P??) contains a facsimile of the first edition alongside a "modernized" edition. Margreta de Grazia's SHAKESPEARE VERBATIM (Cambridge UP) is a book-length treatise, coolly theoretical, on the eighteenth-century origins of the Shakespearean sequence and how different what we "have" is from what was first published as that work. It also contains references to a number of other recent critics who have torn to shreds our notion of the canonical Shakespeare, including the Sonnets; de Grazia and Peter Stallybrass have an essay about two years ago in Shakespeare Quarterly called "The Materiality of the Shakespearean Text" that provides a good overview of this work as well. Where I come from, revisting the publication and editing history of these texts is all the rage -- I have sympathy for your friend if he/she can't get access to people who know about this work (if, that is, I've correctly understood his/her interests). -- dgolumbi@sas.upenn.edu David Golumbia ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 08:58:12 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Riding Shakespeare Thanks David Golumbia re Shaks info . Message will be passed on to my non-e-mail friend. He need encouragement you rightly might guess. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 13:59:54 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: G.I. Bill (gastro-intestinal) aldon, i've heard others detail this phenomenon, except in harsher, more specifically pejorative terms... i.e., that english depts. are now populated in many cases by those unwilling to 'face the music,' either wrt combat or jail... i hasten to add that i'm not taking sides here at all, not least b/c i was young enough not to bother registering and not to worry about my complacency (turned 18 in '72)... i mean, i wasn't pushed to the edge (not that way, anyway)... i wonder what others feel about this... one individual once confided in me that english depts. were filled with "cowards" (again---non-combat and non-c.o. status, "draft dodgers") and that this was in fact an aspect of the general lassitude evinced by english profs. wrt serious work issues such as collective bargaining, faculty rights, etc... doesn't entirely wash, given that i've known a number of the (much) older set who were ww ii vets and who were/are similarly opposed to (for one) unionizing... but i still wonder what others think about this, the general trauma of america's involvement in viet nam and the current shape of literary studies---not theoretically, but in terms of the institutional realities... joe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 15:05:50 -0500 Reply-To: John_Lavagnino@Brown.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Lavagnino Subject: Re: Riding Shakespeare There's a lot of good stuff on the relationship between the physical book and the text in Randall McLeod's writings; with respect to Shaksper's sonnets, in "Spellbound: Typography and the Concept of Old-Spelling Editions" (in *Renaissance and Reformation* NS 3:1 (1979), 50-65) and "Unemending Shakespeare's Sonnet 111" (in *Studies in English Literature* 21 (1981), 75-96). I think his finest work is in "Information upon Information" (in *Text* 5 (1991), 241-281, published under the name "Random Clod"). The particular value of these essays comes from the way they bring together the perspectives of two subdisciplines that normally have no connection whatsoever: physical bibliography and literary criticism of the close-reading sort. McLeod seen solely as a bibliographer or solely as a critic isn't doing anything revolutionary, though he is quite good at both; it's the combination that's really remarkable. Where an edition of Shakespeare will typically have a note of a line or two about difficult readings or emendations, McLeod has written essays of ten or twenty pages which set forth more clearly than any other source what is known about the production process that created the book and how that affects the likelihood of particular emendations, as well as providing close readings of the resulting texts. Even if you're not convinced about the reading he happens to favor (as I am not by the second of these essays, which proposes a change in the usual emendation made to a single word in Sonnet 111), you will understand much better what you are looking at when you go back to the work. John Lavagnino Women Writers Project, Brown University ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 10:12:46 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: Pound translation In-Reply-To: <199603031935.OAA02190@orion.sas.upenn.edu> I got such a kick out of the following translation of Pound's "The Return" into pidgin (Hawaiian Creole English) that I thought it might bring a smile to other faces, as well. Here goes (by one of my students): Stay Come Spock em, dey stay come; auwe, spock da scayed Movaments, and da luau feet, Stay all twist an' kooked Walkin' all jag! Spock em, dey stay come, one, afta da udda Scayed, ha moe moe-haf not Wen even spook da snow all white lidat An soun' stay in da bareeze An haf stay turn da udda way; Was da "kooks-wit-wings," Safe! Kahunas wit da flyin' kine Nikes! Dey get de silva dogs Smellin' da hauna eya! Ai sos! Ai sos! Dey was da fas' mokes Dose da shaap-smellin'; Dose was da obake of blood Cruisin' on da leash, Shmoke dose leash-buggas ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 09:57:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: AWOL's web page (Forwarded on behalf of AWOL) >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 17:23:20 +1000 >To: awol@ozemail.com.au >From: awol@ozemail.com.au (awol) >Subject: AWOL's web page > >Australian Writing On Line now has its own web page at >http://www.ozemail.com.au/~awol > >The monthly HAPPENINGS list can be accessed at >http://www.ozemail.com.au/~awol/Happenings.html > >Over the coming weeks AWOL will upload its small press Virtual Bookshop. >Stay tuned. > > > > > >AWOL >Australian Writing On Line >awol@ozemail.com.au >http://www.ozemail.com.au/~awol/ >PO Box 333 Concord NSW 2137 Australia >Phone 61 2 7475667 >Fax 61 2 7472802 > __________________________________ Mark Roberts Student Systems Project Officer Information Systems University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia M.Roberts@isu.usyd.edu.au PH:(02)351 5066 FAX:(02)351 5081 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 15:42:49 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerry Rothenberg Subject: Re: Pound translation Susan -- Thank you for "the return" in pidgin, which for the moment makes that old one new. It raises a question in my mind, of whether there's been any attempt at a deep or thorough use of Hawaiian pidgin in contemporary poem-making -- not spicing up the English poem with a little of the flavor but going all the way as here. I know of that kind of thing from other places but don't know if similar activity is present in Hawaii. Anyway, just asking. JERRY ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 14:24:45 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: Pound translation In-Reply-To: <9603032342.AA11756@carla.UCSD.EDU> Jerry--There are some serious writers of pidgin in Hawai'i; the best are Lois-Ann Yamanaka, whose book of poems, _Saturday Night at the Pahala Theatre_ (Bamboo Ridge Press) is much more radical than her new Farrar, Straus & Giroux novel, _Wild Meat and the Bully Burgers_, which has a standard English narrator. And there's Joe Balaz, whose mock epic about the discovery of Japan by Polynesians is in the new TINFISH (shameless shameless self-promotion on my part!), along with a couple of poems in pidgin by Eric Chock. Darrell Lum is a fine short story writer and playwright. Other writers, such as Marie Hara, Rodney Morales, and Juliet Kono Lee, use pidgin, but not exclusively. The Millenium anthology is working well in my creative writing class. I guess the funny thing is how little resistance there is to avant-garde writing among the students. I mean it's almost disappointing sometimes! Susan On Sun, 3 Mar 1996, Jerry Rothenberg wrote: > Susan -- > > Thank you for "the return" in pidgin, which for the moment makes that old one > new. It raises a question in my mind, of whether there's been any attempt > at a deep or thorough use of Hawaiian pidgin in contemporary poem-making -- > not spicing up the English poem with a little of the flavor but going all the > way as here. I know of that kind of thing from other places but don't know > if similar activity is present in Hawaii. > > Anyway, just asking. > > JERRY > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 12:55:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: AWOL: XAVIER HERBERT HOME FACES DEVELOPMENT AXE (forwarded) >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 17:28:14 +1000 >To: awol@ozemail.com.au >From: awol@ozemail.com.au (awol) >Subject: AWOL: XAVIER HERBERT HOME FACES DEVELOPMENT AXE > >The following message has been posted by AWOL on behalf of the campaign to >save Xavier Herbert's home. > >****************************************************** > >ATTENTION - HELP NEEDED > >XAVIER HERBERT HOME FACES DEVELOPMENT AXE > >The home of Xavier Herbert, located in the once quite Cairns suburb of >Redlynch in far north Queensland, is threatened with being demolished for >unit development. > >This is the home where Xavier Herbert wrote the 1975 Miles Franklin award >winner, Poor Fellow, My Country. > >The Xavier Herbert Cottage Preservation Committee has been established with >the aim of preserving the house. The options for this are still being >developed. A submission to the Cairns City Council to purchase the home has >been rejected. > >The home is for sale at $123,000. > >If anyone is interested in lending support to this campaign please contact the: > >Xavier Herbert Cottage Preservation Committee > >Cairns Ross Parisi 015163313 fax 070 314529 > >Brisbane Kevin Guy phone/fax 07 3844 5629 email cycad@peg.apc.org > > > > > > >AWOL >Australian Writing On Line >awol@ozemail.com.au >http://www.ozemail.com.au/~awol/ >PO Box 333 Concord NSW 2137 Australia >Phone 61 2 7475667 >Fax 61 2 7472802 > __________________________________ Mark Roberts Student Systems Project Officer Information Systems University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia M.Roberts@isu.usyd.edu.au PH:(02)351 5066 FAX:(02)351 5081 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 21:39:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Golumbia Subject: Re: Riding Shakespeare Just want to second John Lavagnino's endorsement of Randall McLeod's work -- he's not well known outside the Renaissance but within it occupies a place of high regard -- as one pop god puts it, apropos of something else I'm sure, "not the stuff for the tourists/But the stuff for the purists." The de Grazia/Stallybrass essay I mentioned in my previous post was written as an introduction to a collection of McLeod that, so far as I know, has not in fact appeared and may not be appearing. He deserves a wider audience -- but I suspect he's too smart to get one. -- dgolumbi@sas.upenn.edu David Golumbia ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 22:05:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: academic poet/ry Dear Tony Green---I don't know if Chris Reiner is still on this list, but WITZ published an article just recently by Mark DuCharme on a Clark Coolidge and a Shakespeare sonnet...recognizing the syntactical ambiguity and all that in the S as well as C (though I don't know if he deals with the BOOK KNOWN AS Q punctuation and spellings.....cs ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 21:39:31 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Resent-From: "Hank Lazer" Comments: Originally-From: Emily Lloyd From: Hank Lazer Subject: spoken through a medium Hank, could you forward this to the list for me? I ask you because I just read one of your posts so I had your address handy. ______________________________________________ [THE FOLLOWING POST DOES NOT REFLECT THE OPINIONS OF HANK LAZER, so far as I know. They're mine. Emily Lloyd] Not not speaking; something's wrong w/my listserv app. I can receive Poetics messages but am being prevented from responding. I've saved the responses I've tried to send & will fwd. them to the list if they're relevant by the time this (rather metaphorical) problem is solved... But briefly--re:derrida--NOT pro-Cliff notes. My problem w/JD (& others) is his audience. In choosing a style, you're often choosing (whether purposefully or not) an audience. & excluding another. And yes, this applies to poets & other kinds of writers, too. I was (unfashionably) making a distinction between theoreticians & poets---feeling the first have a "responsibility" to [what word to use here? clarity?] by nature of their work trying to "assert" "convince" "change" or "expose." Of course, some poets do this too (no one need remind me). So---who reads and who doesn't Derrida--& should this be a [concern, question, issue] (of mine, of his, of anyone who likes his "central ideas," which no, I will NOT attempt to articulate here). Also--I must be living in a different academic universe from most posters. I drank theory for breakfast & lunch (with a sensible dinner). I've not been encouraged to think for a second of poets as savants or poems as anything but meticulously constructed. And yes, I AM grateful for this. --E ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 23:56:09 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: Pound translation Hi, this is the real Kevin Killian. Susan Schultz & Jerome Rothenberg, you 2 were talking about the Hawaiian writers of Pidgin English. Well have I got a name for you!! Susan, you probably know all about this guy, R. Zamora Linmark. he came to San Francisco last week and I got to meet him after his reading. He is fantastic. He has a book out from Kaya Production called Rolling the R's. I have not been so impressed with a book in eternity. It's kind of a novel and all the characters are gay youngsters in a Filipino section of Hawaii during the late 70s, they are 10 or 12 years old and all of them want to be like the US stars they watch on TV-Farrah Fawcett, Scott Baio, Matt Dillon, Kate Jackson, Donna Summer etc. It has to be read to be believed. It was great to meet him and hear him read. Susan, you should arrange for him to come to your classes at the University where you teach. But you probably have already! He is also in new anthology "Premonitions." XXX Kevin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 00:01:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Trivia question about Henry James Hello gang, it's Kevin Killian again. I can't think of anybody to ask who would be sure to know, except Raymond Pettibon, and he's too far away, but I need to know the answer by tomorrow morning!!! It's about Henry James' Portrait of a Lady. What is the name of the man whom Isabel Archer marries; and b) what is his relation to that sinister Madame Merle, is she his sister, mistress, both or what? I forget. And I don't have a copy of the book in the house. I could probably download it from somewhere, but duh. Also what is the name of his daughter the one who's in the convent? First person to write in gets a free copy of this month's issue of Mirage (Larry Kearney, Ed Morris Jr, Hoa Nguyen, Rosmarie Waldrop, cover by Claude Royet-Journoud). Thank you everyone!!! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 02:42:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: academic poet/ry Chris, Maria, > > Maria, but what if you DID encounter such students? Is it a one-way > street? Like can one eat one's "avant-garde" desert before? > I mean dessert.... > Or is it possible that a poet who comes to the avant-garde stuff without > ever having access to, or interest in, the mainstream tradition (western) > (dying?), will have been spared an un-necessary immersion in stuffy stuff > ? That "experiment" includes "tradition" more than vice versa--- > I'm surprised you haven't encountered such students... > I wonder what you would have done with me had I been your student.... > cs > A test case of this might be Bruce Andrews. He is the one poet who seems never to have had a "conventionalist" early period. Even back in 1971-72, when he was a grad student at Harvard having come from Michael Lally's workshop in the Baltimore/DC area that proved so fruitful to so many poets, his work had that atomized "anti-narrative" feel to it. He once told me that his early listening to jazz as a youngster had led him to believe that the very same Iowa School poetics that had, for example, been the site where Lally had gone to school struck him as an equivalent to, say, Dixieland when he knew there was going to be some equivalent to an Albert Ayler (or whatever) and he just set his sites on that, day one, even though at the time he didn't know exactly where to find it. Ron silliman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 06:01:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: real dead bugs In-Reply-To: <8758D10EF5@as.ua.edu> On Sat, 2 Mar 1996, Hank Lazer wrote: > Actually, Jacques Derrida was aboard the Challenger & died in the > explosion. Ronald Reagan, when he heard of the explosion, is reported to have said, "Is that the one with the philosopher?" Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 684-6277 There is some excitement in one corner, but most of the ghosts are merely shaking their heads. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 04:09:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jack Mahan Subject: Re: Challenging academic poet/ry In-Reply-To: <199603041042.CAA15550@ix10.ix.netcom.com> On Mon, 4 Mar 1996, Ron Silliman wrote: >....he just set his sites on that, day one, even though at the time he >didn't know exactly where > to find it. Ron, some of us are young, some came in blind; some were pushed in... For one, N. Mackey streched my pupils and laughed heh heh heh heh-- saying- "No." "But I Can Point You to Some Trees in the Forest..." * Face it y'all, Langpo gets/got somefolks _HIGH_ like nothin' else... * Anyone here could run for office and get elected on a platform exclaiming the addictive, brain-damaging effects of Langpo on the youth of today... It'd be much easier for me to run that campaign, than to arrange an academic contract in non-discursive analysis... (even at The Evergreen State College, where there are no Departments)... I've seen one logger, and I feel like I've seen 'em all. Point being, teachers, it's all fun and good, until somebody gets hurt... "LP-- Not Just a Way With Words." Very Vichy, (unemployed again) jack ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 07:38:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: Re: Trivia question about Henry James At 12:01 AM 3/4/96 -0800, Kevin Killian wrote: What is the name of the man whom Isabel Archer >marries Gilbert Osmond b) what is his relation to that sinister Madame Merle, is she >his sister, mistress, both or what? *Former* mistress, person who knows him better than anyone else in the world, and mother of his daughter, the one in the convent, Pansy Osmond You know they're making a movie of this starring Nicole Kidman? Emily ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 08:11:42 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Mr. Gould re-blasing (twinkling) A member of the list in a private communique has convinced me that, in my enthusiasm for the Blasing book (POLITICS OF FORM etc.), I may have misrepresented the aims and positions of the Langposse. I went back and had a second look at the book; while she does raise some important & provocative questions about rhetoric & technique / technique & politics in 20th cent. poetry, she doesn't examine Lanpo very closely. In fact one could argue that it was the mainstream free verse of the 70s, which langpo reacted against, which maintained a kind of anti-critical anti-rhetorical "natural" rhetoric - the kind of political assumption Blasing claims Pound/Olson modernism & by extension Lanpo maintained. I won't gab any further along these lines until I've read a little more of the writings. As I think I pointed out in my first couple of posts on this subject, my own reading in Language poetry is pretty slim, so my provocations should be taken with a grain of salt (& 2 teaspoons of cough syrup). Language poetry's own truly anti-rhetorical rhetoric - breaking down the "speaking subject" into constituent parts & erratic orbits & word clusters - was a real political move. Speaking as a blind & semi-comatose litwerary historian, it may not have produced meisterpieces, but it opened some doors. Hear, hear. Righto, Mr. Chips. Further groundsmashing pronunciamentos on this and other subjects are available from Pluto & Uranus Press in a collection titled: "Pot-shots and Potheads : Contemporary Poetry and the Incline of the Triangle", ed. by...yours truly. Available from P-U Press - just send the gold plate. p.s. ladies & gentlemen: I advise no further discussion on this or any other subject. Thank you. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 09:45:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Mr. Gould re-blasing (twinkling) henry, don't worry about being language-ishly correct just cuz yr on this list. yr allowed to like stuff that's critical of langpo. i've found the "language people" very nice, and open to my ideas, although i never saw myself as "one of them."--maria d ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 07:05:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Pound translation Uh, I'm not a teacher, so this is quite literally not my business, & I certainly don't claim to know the protocol about something like this, but ... Am I really the only one to be a little put off by the fact that the translator is not credited by name? I mean, if I were a student & I knew that my writing was going to be shown, and praised, to more than 350 poets, editors, translators, critics, readers, etc. from around the (English-speaking) world, I would 1) want a choice in the matter and 2) if I wanted them to read it, I'd damn well want them to know who I was, too. This e-mail list is a kind of publishing &, even without considering any people who look through the archives at the EPC, quite possibly has a larger circulation than, say, TinFish (for which my check is in the mail, Susan). Just checking. Bests, Herb > I got such a kick out of the following translation of Pound's >"The Return" into pidgin (Hawaiian Creole English) that I thought it >might bring a smile to other faces, as well. Here goes (by one of my >students): Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 10:15:05 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: Mr. Gould re-blasing (twinkling) >p.s. ladies & gentlemen: whew! that leaves _me_ out... >I advise no further discussion on this or any other subject... consider the subject, closed. but may we open the object? lbd ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 10:25:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Bradley bugs At 6:01 AM 3/4/96, David Kellogg wrote: >On Sat, 2 Mar 1996, Hank Lazer wrote: > >> Actually, Jacques Derrida was aboard the Challenger & died in the >> explosion. > >Ronald Reagan, when he heard of the explosion, is reported to have >said, "Is that the one with the philosopher?" > Sunday NY Times: American Book Foundation event, Bill Bradley explains difference between his book and Colin Powell's--Powell received $6 million, Bradley received $1 dollar. Bradley quotes from Derrida. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 13:02:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KUSZAI Subject: info request does anyone out there have Stephen Ratcliffe's e-mail address. I don't believe he is a subscriber to Poetics list. thanks, Joel Kuszai please reply to me backchannel, "if you can" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 13:09:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Foley Subject: Re: Silliman et al. on JAZZ, &c. Re: Chris, Maria & Ron On the possibility, raised here, of experimental poetry proceeding without a traditional background, with a suggested analogy from the history of jazz: Albert Ayler, to take Ron's example, immersed himself in the jazz tradition just as much as every jazz great. I don't expect you could get him to say we shouldn't bother listening to Louis Armstrong anymore, or that history begins with Ornette Coleman. Bruce Andrews may never have written what you call "conventionalist" verse, but he did read it, I suppose, as an undergraduate, and as a graduate student at Harvard. Maybe he was never "interested in" --- one side of the question --- but he did have "access to" the traditions of poetry. Is the idea here that he learned NOTHING? That his reading was just so much time wasted before he could do his own thang? Pat ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 07:38:54 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: Pound translation In-Reply-To: Kevin--so glad you got to hear and meet Zack Linmark. At the reading here for his book, which had an audience of 200(?) people, he had actors perform chapters (some are letters, some poems, some dialogues) from it. The drag queen was especially good. He's writing a mixture of pidgin, standard American, and increasingly adding Filipino languages to his work. I also recommend the book highly. Susan On Sun, 3 Mar 1996, Kevin Killian wrote: > Hi, this is the real Kevin Killian. > > Susan Schultz & Jerome Rothenberg, you 2 were talking about the Hawaiian > writers of Pidgin English. Well have I got a name for you!! > > Susan, you probably know all about this guy, R. Zamora Linmark. he came to > San Francisco last week and I got to meet him after his reading. He is > fantastic. He has a book out from Kaya Production called Rolling the R's. > I have not been so impressed with a book in eternity. It's kind of a novel > and all the characters are gay youngsters in a Filipino section of Hawaii > during the late 70s, they are 10 or 12 years old and all of them want to be > like the US stars they watch on TV-Farrah Fawcett, Scott Baio, Matt Dillon, > Kate Jackson, Donna Summer etc. It has to be read to be believed. It was > great to meet him and hear him read. Susan, you should arrange for him to > come to your classes at the University where you teach. But you probably > have already! He is also in new anthology "Premonitions." XXX Kevin > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 18:15:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: NEW TALISMAN! the new talisman is here: new poems by William Bronk, conversations with Bronk and Henry Lyman, major essay on Bronk by David Clippinger; totally big and terrific section of Turkish poetry translated, and introduced by Murat Nemet-Nejat: Cemal Sureya, Ece Ayhan, Ilhan Berk, Behcet Necatigil, Ozdemir Ince, Nilgun Marmara, Mustafa Ziyalan, and Melisa Gurpinar; and then: William Walsh on Oppen, Susan Schultz on Bernstein, Guest, Lauterbach, Palmer, Revell, and Selby, Keith Tuma on Eshleman, Stephen Fredman on Einzig, Susan Smith Nash on Scalapino, plus huge poetics section: Susan Smith Nash, John Noto, Patrick Philips, Daniel Barbiero; plus major essay by W. Scott Howard on Susan Howe. And it's still just $6, yr. subscription. $11. And even if we sell what we print, we barely pay the printer. Please buy/subscribe: Talisman, P.O. Box 3157, Jersey City, NJ 07303-3157. The next Talisman, #15, the Gerrit Lansing issue, should be here next month, and #16 (Boston/Britain) is being fine tuned for summer publication, but we need yr. subscription dollars, please. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 13:43:20 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: Pound translation In-Reply-To: Thanks, Herb, for saying what you said. I had a strange feeling about it, too. The student's name is Nathan Kagayama, and I told him I was sharing his work. Susan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 19:27:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Silliman et al. on JAZZ, &c. Pat, Ron, anyone-- Is Bruce really "reading" Dante? chris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 19:40:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Howard Shoemaker Subject: Re: Oppen In-Reply-To: <199603030509.AAA00466@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> from "Automatic digest processor" at Mar 3, 96 00:06:38 am I'm always glad when Oppen comes up because I think he's really on of our great poets, despite the deceptive lack of *bulk* in the output. His poetic project seems to me to engage, with remarkable depth, some of the more crucial questions of this century's history. So, even tho i'm used to the poets i like most not being very widely recognized, i'm always just a bit surprised & disappointed in his case--and susceptible, i guess, to a utopian dream that some where some day his worth will be acknowledged... Ah, enough of that. I guess it's enough to see folks like Rod Smith engaging so seriously and interestingly with the poems. It's *always* fascinating to consider the relations among Oppen's books, in a way that just isn't true of many or most poets. That's partly because they're so much like units, each one self-contained and discrete, but also extending the project of what has gone before. But as true as this is, it's also possible to forget about the apparently linear movement from one book to the next, to think and read instead by attending to recurrences and anticipations and reversions that weave strange patterns throughout the work as a whole. I like Rod's comments on the late poetry--the move into or immersion in flow and fluidity and music. This makes sense to me, or feels good in terms of my own reading. But in terms of O's late habit of quoting himself, i'm especially struck by how strongly the last book, Primitive, loops back to the first, Discrete Series. Strangely moving (moving strangely?) how that last last poem, "Till Other Voices Wake Us," flows back to wash over with watery music the scene of O.'s writing the first book... steve Rod Smith writes: "Guess what I'd say I was hinting at in my Oppen question-- seems there's less of an interest in direct statement in the later work, more of an interest in movement/flow. Of course these are always side by side but I think at times one is more emphatic. I'd point to a poem like "Animula" or "The Book of Job &..." as examples of what I'm talking abt, & the last pg of "A Narrative" as possibly the first occurence of this in his work after returning to poetry. Poems like "The Hills" or basically all of "The Materials" is _saying_ something, working out a philosophical question or making an observation/description-- "Of Being Numerous" perhaps the most concerted attempt at this & the place where he begins to leave it off somewhat. The practice of quoting himself which shows up so strongly in _Primitive_ also causes this to happen for me-- the reiteration even at a distance seems to be saying "this is what I've come to know & largely what I can make with it is (a) music." The disappearance of punctuation in much of the later work & the increasing use of gaps within the line also point in this direction. I wouldn't call it an interest in nonsense, this emphasis I'm talking about, but rather an acceptance, perhaps, of the sense already made, & an opening out into music with it. But just now reading through _The Materials_ a bit, seems I may be wrong, that ear's there too. . . Rod" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 17:42:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: GI Tract In-Reply-To: <199603040513.AAA29362@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Mine less harsh because I do not for a minute buy reactionary crap about universities being filled with cowards who wouldn't serve -- partly because, being of that generation, I know what some of us had to face when resisting the draft. Those of us who were serving COs were confronted with what General Hershey like to call a policy of "maximum possible disruption," which policy was patently intended to see to it that nobody in his right mind would seek CO status. On the other side, the majority of draftees never in fact faced combat. My brother-in-law, drafted the year before me, spent his two years typing in Germany. What I was getting at was just that there are many factors operating in the English Dept. job market of the past decades that have neverbeen much discussed and, this a bit harsher, that some among those who had uninterrupted university education and progress towards career have not always given thought to how they got there and to how others were siphoned away, no matter how briefly. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 17:54:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Tuma's Blues In-Reply-To: <199603040513.AAA29362@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Direct to Keith + any other interested readers of his review in current _ABR_ The first publication of Brathwaite's _Black + Blues_ that I know of was published in 1976 by Cuba's _Casa de las Americas_, which would likely explain why you've never seen a copy. (Ain't the embargo grand!) Your review mentions a 1979 original. Is that yet another edition? Does the new version (I haven't seen one yet) indicate a '79 edition from an English-speaking country? The "76 version is in English, and has a rather televsiual cover (a sort of music of the spheres effect), which is continued into the title page. The typography is pretty much like Brathwaite's other 70s works. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 21:02:23 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Keith Tuma Subject: Re: Tuma's Blues In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 4 Mar 1996 17:54:05 -0800 from Aldon, No other edition--that was my error, likely the product of inscrutable handwriting, no proofs from ABR, + something like 2 days to write the thing. Not my title either--and I'm less than pleased with what ABR called the thing. best, Keith ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 13:59:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: Re: Tuma's Blues >Aldon, > >No other edition--that was my error, likely the product of inscrutable >handwriting, no proofs from ABR, + something like 2 days to write the thing. > >Not my title either--and I'm less than pleased with what ABR called the thing. > >best, > >Keith Pardon my ignorance but what is ABR? In Australia it is the AUSTRALIAN BOOK REVIEW. __________________________________ Mark Roberts Student Systems Project Officer Information Systems University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia M.Roberts@isu.usyd.edu.au PH:(02)351 5066 FAX:(02)351 5081 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 22:27:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Silliman et al. on JAZZ, &c. i thot chris's q to me was abt having students experimentally oriented who then got turned on to traditional stuff --i haven't had that experience --but now folks are talking about people who have only and experimental "bildungs"apprenticeship, yes i know many such, who have never taken a poetry class where they read the "classics," at Naropa, say, or some of my u-grads who have never studied poetry at all til they walked into my class. but i can certainly imagine such a thing, and do have a friend who dropped out of the punk/ poetry/zine performance/ poststructuralist theory scene to study medieval provencal and sicilian poetry --what she loves about it is the formalism... more power to her; with her background she can do anything!--maria d ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 20:57:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: Need Korean bone marrow - Save a Life (fwd) one more forward, one more apology for being off topic. Tenney >Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 18:52:48 -0700 >Reply-To: English Graduate Literature Program >Sender: English Graduate Literature Program >From: LZ >Subject: Need Korean bone marrow - Save a Life (fwd) >Comments: To: english@listserv.arizona.edu >To: Multiple recipients of list EGL >Content-Length: 2717 > >I know this is off all of our usual topics, but I figured somebody might >eventually forward this to someone who can help. > >LYnda > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Mon, 4 Mar 96 15:23:44 PST >From: Barbara W. Langstaff >To: a-parents-china@shore.net >Subject: Need Korean bone marrow - Save a Life > >Forgive me for being off-topic, (pardon my netiquette) but someone out there >may be able to save a life. This was forwarded by a friend (headers >deleted), so I know it's real. His sister appears to have been adopted, so >maybe it's not too far off-topic. > >Please forward as appropriate. Thanks. > > >>>From: Brantley Thompson >>> >>>Subject: Re: Waste time helping someone >>> >>> >>> >>>Author: mdoyle@cosmix.com (Mike Doyle) at nylanr01 Date: 2/4/96 8:10 >>> >>> >>> >>>Friends, >>> >>> >>> >>>My twelve year old sister has Leukemia and needs a bone marrow >>> >>>transplant to survive, but has no blood-related siblings. Her name is >>> >>>Karen, and she is 1/2 Korean and 1/2 North American (European >>> >>>descendants). Finding out whether or not one is an appropriate donor >>> >>>requires only a blood test. All expenses for the donor will of course be >>> >>>paid. If you are or know anyone who is of like origin, please email me >>> >>>as soon as possible at . I would also appreciate your >>> >>>sharing this message with the people you know. Karen's doctors are >>> >>>searching through the registered donor list, and haven't had much luck. >>> >>>Our best bet is to find someone who is not yet registered as a donor. I >>> >>>welcome any suggestions you have, and appreciate your concern. >>> >>> >>> >>>Thank you, >>> >>>Mike >>> >>> >>> >> >>Alana O'Reilly >>Laboratory of Ben Neel >>Beth Israel Hospital Boston >>RW663 >>330 Brookline Avenue >>Boston, MA 02215 >>phone: (617) 667-2901 >>fax: (617) 667-2913 >> >> >> >> >>Received: from geoworks.com by ccmail.geoworks.com (SMTPLINK V2.11 >PreRelease 4) >> ; Sun, 03 Mar 96 21:20:00 PST >>Return-Path: >>Received: from water.geoworks.com.geoworks by geoworks.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) >> id AA07005; Sun, 3 Mar 96 21:22:34 PST >>Received: by water.geoworks.com.geoworks (4.1/SMI-4.1) >> id AA24994; Sun, 3 Mar 96 21:22:34 PST >>Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 21:22:33 -0800 (PST) >>From: Peter Trinh >>To: junkmail@geoworks.com >>Subject: looking for help (fwd) >>Message-Id: >>Mime-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >> >> >> > >______________________________________________________________ >Barbara W. Langstaff >Forte Technical Support Dispatcher >Support Hotline: 510-451-5400 >Tel: 510 869 2047 >Fax: 510 869 2010 > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 03:02:36 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Silliman et al. on JAZZ, &c. "Bruce Andrews may never have written what you call "conventionalist" verse, but he did read it, I suppose, as an undergraduate, and as a graduate student at Harvard. Maybe he was never "interested in" --- one side of the question --- but he did have "access to" the traditions of poetry. "Is the idea here that he learned NOTHING? That his reading was just so much time wasted before he could do his own thang?" Bruce got his Ph.D. in political science, not English (and got the BA and masters at Johns Hopkins before going to Harvard). No, the idea is not that he learned nothing, but rather (perhaps) that the irrelevance of what was generally being taught as literature was immediately visible. Haven't spoken with Bruce about this in at least a decade (and he's not online, alas), but as I recall, he took some lit and/or writing courses and noted liking some from Eliot Coleman, some of whose work (such as the book _Mocking Birds at Fort McHenry_) was itself fairly innovative for the time and context. (That is, formally innovative but completely outside of the context of the New American poetics.) Bruce also was present at the big Languages of Criticism and Sciences of Man (sic) conference at Johns Hopkins in 1966 (he was 18 at the time) that was, for some, the first big brouhaha of poststructuralism in the US -- and that seems to have made some impact. But Bruce has always spoken very highly of Michael Lally's community oriented workshop(s) as a/the key introduction for him, as they seem to have been also for Peter Inman, Tina Darragh, Lynne Dreyer and so many other members of the DC/Baltimore scene of that period. Lord knows, at Berkeley, you needed special dispensation to study any poetry after 1940. I was able to get a course on Zukofsky (a tutorial) only by explaining that he was a key figure in the Williams scene and even then only two faculty members at the time had claimed ever to have read him. The only one who was willing to teach such a course was Grenier. I never had a course in school in which reading Ginsberg or Olson was even a possibility, with the sole exception of a linguistics class at SF State taught by Ed Van Aelstyn, who'd been a founding editor of Coyote's Journal (the mag that Clayton modeled Caterpillar after). What you studied in the 1960s were not the poetics of that decade... Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 03:53:39 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: War Resisters as Vets Aldon, I always thought there ought to be a "veterans" (or otherwise alumni) org for war resisters and conscientious objectors. Certainly, there are lots of us out here, but characteristically we've been separated from that experience by the fact that very seldom did many of us do our "time" in any one concentrated numbers. I was one of two in the prison movement group I worked with (which got approval only because John Tunney, US Senator, and Leo Ryan, the congressman killed at Jonestown, served as paper members on its board). Paul Hoover is the one whose written in most detail of his experiences. (Hi Paul) Ron ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 07:28:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: War Resisters as Vets In-Reply-To: <199603051153.DAA16913@ix2.ix.netcom.com> from "Ron Silliman" at Mar 5, 96 03:53:39 am Those interested in the experience of Viet Nam war resisters in Canada should get ahold of _Hell No We Won't Go: Vietnam Draft Resisters in Canada_ by Alan Haig-Brown, just out from Raincoast Books (8680 Cambie St. Vancouver, BC V6P 6M9, Canada, phone: 604-323-7100) at $18.95 CAN $13.50 US (ISBN 1-55192-011-5). The book consists of interviews with 18 men and 2 women who came to Canada because of the war. Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 09:27:55 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: GI Tract aldon, i don't buy the "coward" line either, meant to pass (again) no judgment on what anybody did wrt the draft... like you, i'm interested simply in the what's and why's of those who managed to profit from what you call the "anti-G.I. bill"... i wonder how in fact such a "factor" operates in the current industry, as it were... i wonder what it means to argue, in effect, that there are academics who have never been self-critical in this regard... and i wonder just how many (male) academics we're talking about... i guess i'm asking for more specifics to try to get a handle on this so very sensitive issue... joe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 11:09:31 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Artists Statement on the Economy (long!!) Going to try an experiment here. As mentioned in previous post, I'm meeting with a few writers to talk politics on a weekly basis. The following is my own sketchy draft of an "Artists' Statement on the Economy" loosely modelled (but not echoing) the Catholic Bishops' Statement of a few years back. It is only an outline - mostly just topic headings. I would welcome any comments on the whole endeavor - or suggested topics or comments on the topics below. Please send to Henry_Gould@brown.edu; I will print them out & bring to the meeting - can't promise anything beyond that. Thanks in advance. PLEASE send direct to me - do not hit reply button. This should NOT be a general poetics discussion, in my opinion. I. POLITICAL ROLE OF ARTS & ARTISTS - Current drift of US society is inimical to arts & artists. Aspects: 1. economy is inimical to majority of people in general (job loss, insecurity, overwork, pressure on families; focus on profits, power & technological consumerism; racism & underclass) 2. Society in general is inimical to arts (pervasive commercial media; mandarin, splintered academy; divided ethnic cultures) - Current drift also offers opportunities - time of questioning & change; drive to re-formulate basic values. - Responsibilities of artist to society are the same, on a personal level, as those of any human being. However, art is an activity, a process, a function of culture with its own particularity. Very rudimentarily, this can be defined as the creation of forms & images of order, harmony & discovery. Vital forms which incorporate both real and imaginary experience. The power animating this activity can be defined very simply as the _sympathetic imagination_. - Imagination informs all human activities, as a power of empathy, understanding, criticism and creativity. In the arts, ideally, this comes to focus - consciousness - and fruition, giving back to culture a free image of its common life. A culture without imagination is quite simply a dead culture. It lives off dead images, and persists through inertia & repression. If culture is becoming inimical not only to the arts, but to the majority of people in their common life, then our aim as artists ought to be to turn the imaginative powers toward our common life & the common good. It is not a time to make special demands for artists per se, but a time to address imaginatively the roots of our common problems. This is the rationale for the following analysis. II. PHILOSOPHICAL GROUNDWORK 1. Common good and common life. Perennial realities, social utopias. Peace and equity as standards. Global standards of human rights. 2. Philosophy of government. Democracy - gov't as expression of will of people. Social contract, traditions of social covenant (Biblical, Native American, other). Politics as creative social bond; polis as arena of definition & fulfillment. Gov't as mediator of private rights and common good. 3. Economic philosophy. Community as source of value. Neither private property nor collectivity are absolute values - both entail individual rights and stewardship. Universal human rights as standard for economic organization. III. CONTEMPORARY AMERICAN & GLOBAL ECONOMIC REALITIES IV. CRITIQUE OF CURRENT POLITICAL MOVEMENTS, PARTIES, PLATFORMS V. ACHIEVABLE STANDARDS FOR AMERICAN ECONOMY VI. SPECIFIC POLICY GOALS VII. INDIVIDUAL AS PARTICIPANT IN LOCAL AND GLOBAL COMMUNITIES (fill in the blanks if you can!!) - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 12:48:04 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Brannen Subject: Re: GI Tract Joe, I don't know anyone (self-included) who was politically engaged during the Vietnam period whose life was not somehow disrupted. C.O. status was not granted for the asking. Unless one was raised in a pacifist religion, it was next to impossible to acquire in certain regions. Exemptions from the draft, for any reason, were not casually granted. Draft resistance was a political act and often resulted in exodus or imprisonment. I'm not an academician, in part because of the circumstances of those times, but I will not fault someone for having been fortunate enough to get on with their lives. Nor do I feel they should fault themselves. If you're interested in the factors at work in the "current industry" of academe, I think you'd find it more "profitable" to examine the very active roles that racism and sexism continue to play in the academic environment rather than moralizing about the draft status of your professional colleagues 25 to 30 years ago. Jonathan Brannen >aldon, i don't buy the "coward" line either, meant to pass (again) no >judgment on what anybody did wrt the draft... > >like you, i'm interested simply in the what's and why's of those who >managed to profit from what you call the "anti-G.I. bill"... i wonder how >in fact such a "factor" operates in the current industry, as it were... i >wonder what it means to argue, in effect, that there are academics who have >never been self-critical in this regard... and i wonder just how many >(male) academics we're talking about... > >i guess i'm asking for more specifics to try to get a handle on this so >very sensitive issue... > >joe > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 12:58:25 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: GI Tract on a related note, i'm just now noticing a piece in this week's _chronicle_ entitled "fighting over the killing fields: a new book ignites old debates over pol pot and his brutality" by scott jaschik (p. a8)... it concludes with this observation by one douglas pike, director of the indochina studies program at uc/berkeley: "we have a bunch of scholars who are still walking wounded from the war, because of things they said and did at that time. i think we may need a whole new generation of cambodia watchers---people who won't have to deal with the guilt trip about what they said or did." joe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 13:03:52 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Paul Naylor Subject: River City The new issue of _River City: A Journal of Contemporary Culture_ is out and available. This is the first issue to come out since I've been a member of the poetics list, so I thought I'd give a brief description of it. Each issue focuses on a special topic -- our Summer 1995 issue was devoted to the Blues and the current issue is devoted to contemporary representations of China -- but each issue also includes material unrelated to the special topic. The new issue features a selection of poetry from writers based in Taiwan and mainland China, an interview with Bei Dao, and essay on cinema in Hong Kong, an essay by Yunte Huang on translating Chinese poetry, an essay by Will Alexander, and a short story by Brain Russo. The issue also includes a fine essay by Amiri Baraka on Thelonious Monk, three poems by Charles Bernstein, and "Carnal Knowledge," a long, meditative poem on the body by Beverly Dahlen.SEND in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" Our next issue, Summer 1996, will focus on the Caribbean and will feature work by, among others, Kamau Brathwaite, M. Nourbese Philip, and our own Aldon Nielson. If any of you have any work that deals with the Caribbean, I'd like to see it. Subscriptions are $7 per issue or $12 for two issues. Checks and submissions should be sent to: Paul Naylor 463 Patterson Building Department of English The University of Memphis Memphis, TN 38152 MAIL SEND in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 14:35:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: ossian Never mind the straw polls of form, is there any work on recent prosodies? Anybody whose music's shocking? March Hare ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 14:52:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: War Resisters as Vets another good upcoming read: by Michael Bibby, working title Hearts and Minds: Resistance Poetry of the Vietnam era, rutgers press, he deals extensively with g.i. resistance and g.i. poetry. --maria d ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 11:53:02 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAXINE CHERNOFF Subject: war resisters In-Reply-To: <199603051153.DAA16913@ix2.ix.netcom.com> Hi, Ron. I'm not sure of the context here. Maxine saw the message and I thought I'd reply briefly. Apparently someone has asserted that English Departments consist of war resisters rather than vets. I was a conscientious objector from 1968-1970, working in a Chicago hospital. My experiences are related as fiction in my novel SAIGON, ILLINOIS. As far as I know, this is the only novel of the dozens of Vietnam-era books to take the CO point of view. My friend and office mate, Larry Heinemann, drove a tank in Vietnam and won the National Book Award for his second Vietnam novel, PACO'S STORY. Most war stories will appear to be more dramatic to the public taste than the adventures of a war resister. The truth of it is that conscientious objectors are not generally respected for their actions. No matter how moral in motivation, they are deemed unpatriotic. Schwartzkopf and Colin Powell are national heroes. A conscientious objector is a cultural outsider that most people don't want to hear about. Being a Vietnam vet gives you a box to check on academic hiring surveys; being a CO doesn't. Paul Hoover On Tue, 5 Mar 1996, Ron Silliman wrote: > Aldon, > > I always thought there ought to be a "veterans" (or otherwise alumni) > org for war resisters and conscientious objectors. Certainly, there are > lots of us out here, but characteristically we've been separated from > that experience by the fact that very seldom did many of us do our > "time" in any one concentrated numbers. I was one of two in the prison > movement group I worked with (which got approval only because John > Tunney, US Senator, and Leo Ryan, the congressman killed at Jonestown, > served as paper members on its board). Paul Hoover is the one whose > written in most detail of his experiences. (Hi Paul) > > Ron > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 14:02:39 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: GI Tract jonathan, i'm not interested in "moralizing," either... and i *do* in fact think that racism and sexism are the sorts of things academics should be attending to, along with class bias etc etc etc... yknow, i don't think kali tal is signed on to this list at the moment... a book of my poetry came out last year under the "viet nam generation" imprint, and kali is the publisher as well as editor of the related journal... so i've had occasion not only to read much of the literature published by viet nam generation, but to talk with folks (like kali, and poet w. d. ehrhart, and in fact the entire sixties-l list to which i was subbed to for a while) for whom this question of literary studies----for example, through what some call the "literature of trauma"---is very much inflected by viet nam experience of one sort or the other... just as mccarthyism ostracized and traumatized a lot of folks and, as some would have it, shaped the hollywood films of the 50s and beyond, perhaps a reaction to (or perhaps this latter is too strong?) u.s. involvement in viet nam speaks to the world of letters in ways that are difficult to unravel?... or at least difficult for me to unravel... anyway... this started in response to aldon's observation---and i'm not pointing my finger at aldon 'cept to say that he's not alone in observing so, and that i'm just wondering---actively, in public---what to make of this... the _chronicle_ excerpt i just posted may be wrongheaded, but it nonetheless indicates that there are some general feelings here which may not be all that well understood or articulated... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:12:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Robert Duncan Fesitval ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 12:48:39 -0500 (EST) From: Kristin S Prevallet ROBERT DUNCAN CONFERENCE "The Opening of the Field" April 18-20, 1996 This Wednesdays at Four Plus Special Event is sponsored by the Poetics Program, the English Department, The Poetry/Rare Books Collection, and the Samuel P. Capen Chair of Poetry and the Humanities. All panels and the lecture will take place in the Poetry/Rare Books Collection, 420 Capen Hall. The readings will be held at Hallwalls Contemporary Art Center, 2495 Main Street. For maps, hotel reservation information, and updates, check the Poetry Collection Home Page at: http://writing.upenn.edu/libraries/units/pl/duncanco.html The Schedule: Thursday, April 18 Lecture: Robert J. Bertholf (2:30-3:30 pm) Dramatic Reading: "Adams Way" (4:00-5:00 pm) Poetry Reading: Susan Howe and Nathaniel Mackey (7:30-10:00 pm) Friday, April 19 Panel: Marjorie Perloff, Nathaniel Mackey and Joseph Conte (10:00-12:30) Panel: Robin Blaser, Susan Howe and Jerome McGann (2:30-5:00 pm) Poetry Reading: Michele Leggott and Robin Blaser (7:30 - 10:00 pm) Saturday, April 20 Panel: Peter Quartermain, Michele Leggott and David Levi Strauss (10:30-1:00) Reception: 5:00-8:00 pm, 64 Amherst Street Hotel reservations are being accepted at the University Manor Hotel. The hotel is in walking distance to a shuttle which goes to the university, and a subway that goes to Hallwalls. Special room rates are as follows: $41.95 for one room, two people. Each additional person costs only $5. $36.95 for one room, one person. Call them at 837-3344 for more information. Persons requesting more information on the conference can call (716) 634-3810 or (716) 645-2917, or e-mail ksp2@acsu.buffalo.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 12:50:36 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Reiner Subject: Re: academic poet/ry In-Reply-To: <01I1X1E57WR68Y72HV@cnsvax.albany.edu> On Sun, 3 Mar 1996, Chris Stroffolino wrote: > Dear Tony Green---I don't know if Chris Reiner is still on this list, > but WITZ published an article just recently by Mark DuCharme on a > Clark Coolidge and a Shakespeare sonnet... Yes, I'm still on the list, but unable to spend as much time as I'd like with all the threads. The issue with Mark DuCharme's article is Fall 1995 (the most recent, though a new one will be out shortly). Single issues are $4. Back issues more than a year old can be found in ascii files at the Electronic Poetry Center. The address for WITZ is 12071 Woodbridge Street Studio City, CA 91604 Upcoming spring issue has articles by Stephen Ratcliffe (on Robert Grenier's new work) and Carl Peters (on bpNichol), along with reviews...also a new format...but I'll do a separate post about that when the issue comes out. Thanks, Chris S. for the mention. --------------------- Christopher Reiner creiner@crl.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:20:02 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: ossian >Never mind the straw polls of form, >is there any work on recent prosodies? >Anybody whose music's shocking? > >March Hare Dear March Hare I too would be interested in such work. And I don't know about "shocking," but for "stunning" I might nominate Bruce Andrews, whose sense of prosody, to me, always partakes of a certain kind of maelstrom. I know prosody is always at the forefront in my own work, but I don't think of it so much as prosody as simply the sound/sounding of the poem. And I must admit that for that real bumping, enlivened sound I still sometimes go back to Beowulf and other Old English works. And I do like to read Dickinson aloud, and Stein, and Mac Low (I nominate him for music as well). but so many . . . charles ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 13:48:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: SPT mailing address This is Dodie Bellamy, I spent the morning with Marvin and Michael, the building managers of New College (nice guys) and they advised giving the following address as our mailing address: Small Press Traffic at New College 766 Valencia Street San Francisco, CA 94110 If any of you have already sent stuff to the 741 Valencia address, that will probably be okay, but it's not the best address to use (that's where we're located but the mail is delivered across the street). Should have a phone number by next week. Thanks for all the response on the SPT newsletter. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 14:09:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Filkins Subject: Re: GI Tract & CO's Comments: cc: Jonathan Brannen >Jonathan, > >This difficulty arose in great part because of the peace churches. During >WWII the peace churches ran, with the blessing of the US government, a >rather extensive CO program which broke up in rancor near the end of the >war because of numerous difficulties which arose between the churches and >the feds. At that point the churches declared they would no longer become >involved in that capacity again. So whereas you needed "merely" to >convince the authorities of your pacifist convictions to be designated CO >during WWII. This quite often consisted of essays with supporting letters >from friends, relatives, and clergy. In the Vietnam era you "had" to be >raised within one of the peace churches for your CO status to stick >because otherwise the peace churches would not stand by your side in a >show of support like they did in the WWII era. If there are any "Friends" >on this list who could go into more detail I'd love to hear it. > >Of course in WWII CO status virtually always guaranteed both exodus and >imprisonment. > >I am doing research on CO writers and artists from the WWII era. If >anyone has anything to share concerning that subject I would love to hear >from you backchannel (or on the list if it is relevant to the discussion >at hand). > >Thank you. > >Christopher > >Jonathan Brannen wrote: > >>I don't know anyone (self-included) who was politically engaged during the >>Vietnam period whose life was not somehow disrupted. C.O. status was not >>granted for the asking. Unless one was raised in a pacifist religion, it >>was next to impossible to acquire in certain regions. Exemptions from the >>draft, for any reason, were not casually granted. Draft resistance was a >>political act and often resulted in exodus or imprisonment. >> > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 14:18:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Filkins Subject: Nuns Anyone who is interested in the Nun study mentioned several threads ago can find the study in question at http://www.coa.uky.edu/nunnet/ christopher ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 16:24:39 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jackie Rosenfeld Subject: New here Hi! New to the list and wanted to say hello and ask if there is anything I should know? ie rules, threads, etc. Thanks Jackie ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jackie A. Rosenfeld monkee@eramp.net http://eramp.net/jackie "If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution!" ---Emma Goldman ------------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 12:12:50 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland Subject: Re: Trivia question about Henry James Comments: To: emilyl@MAIL.EROLS.COM Dear Emily, Maybe not so eek, in as much as 'they' making--leastways directing-- the movie is I believe, Jane Campion, of The Piano fame. Lets hope. Wystan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 13:23:46 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: peace churches In-Reply-To: I'm concerned about this right now because I have a small son. I'd love to know whatever I can, whatever anyone can tell about the situation now. Gab. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 20:44:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kenneth Goldsmith Subject: Re: Seals Eyes Comments: To: Marisa Januzzi In-Reply-To: On Tue, 5 Mar 1996, Marisa Januzzi wrote: > > On Sat, 2 Mar 1996, Kenneth Goldsmith wrote: > > > There has been something bothering me lately. What are those black > > things under seals eyes--could they be hairs? > > Well, I just cannotbelieve no one's framed an authoritative response to > this! I hope you've had better backchannel mssgs than this one, too. > > Anyway my guess wld be they are a formerly vestigial pathos-inducing pattern > (aka "poetry") > marissa-- gosh, nobody's replied to my query. you'd think with such a brilliant group, one of 'em would've come up with something rather poetic. i like your idea the best so far peace, kenny g ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 17:49:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Watts Subject: Re: Oppen (Rachel Blau DuPlessis' essay) Just to respond to Brian McHale's mention a couple of days ago of Rachel Blau DuPlessis' essay on Oppen's and Robin Blaser's work: yes, it is to be included in the collection of essays from the Blaser conference of last June, which will probably be titled "The Recovery of the Public World: Essays in Honour of Robin Blaser's Poetry and Poetics." We don't have a publication date for it yet, but it may appear as early as the fall of this year. On this same topic, Alan Golding: please send me a line or two backchannel re/ your paper. Charles Watts cwatts@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 01:33:35 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: Artists Statement on the Economy (long!!) etc > >III. CONTEMPORARY AMERICAN & GLOBAL ECONOMIC REALITIES > >IV. CRITIQUE OF CURRENT POLITICAL MOVEMENTS, PARTIES, PLATFORMS > >V. ACHIEVABLE STANDARDS FOR AMERICAN ECONOMY > for American substitute what? Are u really still thinking America? love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 19:22:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Fwd: Communications Decency Act Dear union members: When we start up a newsletter, it will feature articles like the following. Until then, I'll just past them on individually... John John Feffer Philadelphia sublocal of the National Writers Union 519 S. Melville St. Philadelphia, PA 19143 215-386-5538 e-mail: nwuphil@libertynet.org ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 14:36:36 -0800 (PST) From: Alice Sunshine To: Newsletter Editors -- Alec Dubro <72614.1375@compuserve.com>, BJ Novitski , Bob Chatelle , Ann Cefola , Cheryl Peck , chris@netcom.com, Dan McCrory <71363.1722@compuserve.com>, elinor631@AOL.com, Judy Brandes , Karen Sandrick <103254.2507@compuserve.com>, mpritchard@amherst.edu, Paul Becker <74404.1524@compuserve.com>, Peter Friederici , Sublocal Philadelphia , Rob Ramer <103222.1636@compuserve.com>, Susan Heinlein , Susan Mitchell Subject: Item for Newsletters Dear Newsletter Editors, The following is a report on the Communications Decency Act and the ACLU lawsuit against it. The National Writers Union is a plaintiff in this suit. Bob Chatelle, who wrote the item, says you may cut it down as needed to fit into your newsletter. The entire text will appear in the next issue of the Political Issues Newsletter, but only those who request it receive that one. Best to all. Alice Sunshine, NWU organizer asun@netcom.com ***** NWU Sues to Preserve Free Speech in Cyberspace By Bob Chatelle, Chair, NWU Political Issues Committee On February 8, President Bill Clinton hosted a gala televised celebration at the White House, which included a joint performance by Vice President Gore and Lily Tomlin as Ernestine. The occasion: Clinton's signing of the Telecommunications Bill, which claims to remove barriers to competition, but in fact sweeps away most remaining legal obstacles to the media oligopoly's ever expanding power. On the same day, in Philadelphia, lawyers representing the ACLU, the National Writers Union, and 18 other plaintiffs (including the Electronic Frontier Foundation, Human Rights Watch, and Planned Parenthood) filed suit in US District Court for Eastern Pennsylvania to invalidate the provisions of part of the Telecomm bill, the so-called Communications Decency Act (CDA). The CDA was introduced over a year ago by Sen. James Exon (D-NE). As passed, one provision imposes criminal penalties for "indecent" but constitutionally protected telecommunications to individuals under the age of 18; another criminalizes the use of any "interactive computer service" to "send" or "display in a manner available" to a person under 18 any communication that "depicts or describes, in terms patently offensive as measured by contemporary community standards, sexual or excretory activities or organs." Another provision, added to the bill by Rep. Henry Hyde (R-IL), criminalizes the distribution or reception of any information via "any express company or other common carrier, or interactive computer service" of "information... where, how, or of whom, or by what means any" "drug, medicine, article, or thing designed, adapted, or intended for producing abortion may be obtained or made." The NWU is the only writers organization represented in the lawsuit. We were first approached by the ACLU as a possible plaintiff late in August, just a few weeks after the NWU Delegates Assembly overwhelmingly passed a resolution affirming free speech and privacy rights in cyberspace. The ACLU asked from us no commitment of financial or legal resources. A preliminary okay was given by the NWU Executive Committee, and the matter was discussed by email by the National Executive Board (NEB) in November. All NEB members supported the suit on principle, but some raised legitimate concerns whether the discovery process could require a significant amount of staff time. Fortunately, NWU staff is not much involved in our online activity and the board concluded that there was little danger of them becoming unduly burdened. As Political Issues Chair, I signed and filed the affidavit on behalf of the NWU, but the affidavit was prepared by the ACLU and based on questionnaire answers provided by myself, NWU President Jonathan Tasini, Secretary-Treasurer Bruce Hartford, and New Technologies Cochair Vicki Richman. On February 8, Judge Ronald Buckwalter gave the Justice Department one week to respond to the complaint. The Justice Department agreed for seven days not to investigate or prosecute either the "indecency" or "patently offensive" provisions, but reserved the right ultimately to prosecute for material available during this time should our legal challenge fail. The Justice Department also conceded that the anti-abortion provision was patently unconstitutional and announced they had no intention of enforcing this provision at all. On February 15, the Justice Department responded, claiming "the governmental interests at stake here in controlling access by minors of indecent sexually explicit materials is compelling." To bolster their case, the government appended the widely discredited study on computer pornography by Martin Rimm. Judge Buckwalter issued a temporary restraining order against the "indecency" provisions. The next phase of the challenge will be a hearing before a three-judge panel: Judge Buckwalter, Judge Stuart Dalzell, and Judge Delores K. Sloviter. We will present our case on March 21-22. The Justice Department will present theirs on April 11-12. April 1 is also reserved, should the extra day be needed. The government may take depositions from some plaintiffs and I may have to go to Washington DC for deposition during the week of March 11-15. On February 26, the Justice Department agreed not to investigate or prosecute any of the CDA provisions, pending legal resolution. (Again, should the government win, they reserve the right to prosecute retroactively material posted before the final decision.) Also on February 26, a second lawsuit was filed challenging the CDA. The lead plaintiff was the American Library Association, and other plaintiffs include America Online; American Booksellers Ass'n; American Society of newspaper Editors; Apple Computer; Ass'n of American Publishers; Ass'n of Publishers, Editors, and Writers; Compuserve; Microsoft; Netcom; Newspaper Ass'n of America; Prodigy; Society of Professional Journalists; and the Citizens Internet Empowerment Coalition. On February 27, this suit was consolidated with ours. Also on February 26, Playboy filed separate suit in Delaware against the CDA. Regardless how the three-judge panel rules, the losing side will appeal and the case will ultimately be decided by the US Supreme Court. _ACLU v. Reno_ will be a landmark First Amendment case, and the outcome will determine how cyberspace evolves for decades to come. The NWU would have every reason to be proud of participating in this historic defense of free speech, even if we had not been the first writers organization to join this essential battle. END ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 20:55:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: william elliott vidaver Subject: Rachel Blau DuPlessis paper If anyone would like an audio recording of the talk Rachel Blau DuPlessis presented at The Recovery of the Public World conference/festival last year in Vancouver, please send a message with your name & address to: Aaron Vidaver c/o wvidaver@direct.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 22:22:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: ABR In-Reply-To: <199603060514.AAA03428@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> I was off-line for a bit, so may have missed if somebody already answered our friend's question -- but in case it wasn't answered -- the _ABR_ containing Keith Tuma's review is the _American Book Review_, which name, I suppose, distinguishes it from the _North American Review_, etc. and by the way -- now that I've seen the New Directions edition of _Black + Blues_ I see that the confusion about dates was caused by, surprise, New Directions. Though the copyright page indicates that Brathwaite's book was first published in 1976, the jacket copy says 1979 -- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 22:34:06 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: What if they had a poetry reading and nobdoy came? In-Reply-To: <199603060514.AAA03428@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> That will select all the sixties types who remember those damned posters! Resisters' reunion a good idea -- What was truly strange, to me at any rate, was the number of formerly antiwar folk I knew who were deliriously happy about the Persian Gulf War, as we call it here in the U.S. My original musing came from the observation over the years that I had never once met an English professor around my age who had been drafted -- This was not because they were all actively resisting (keep in mind that student deferments continued through the mid-sixties) -- It just seemed an interesting contrast to me, and I was curious that none of the professors I mentioned this to had ever noticed the fact -- (Though let me hasten to add that there are a number of both vets. of the war and vets of the resistance I have met more recently) The experience of the war tremendously affected the affected and the more sincere alike in academia -- look back to the rumblings in the MLA during those years for a sense of just how strong feelings were at the time -- It would be horribly reductive to do as those who claim that all post-structuralism flows from snits after Paris '68 (this usually said by thems who, unlike Bruce A., don't remember when that Johns Hopkins confab happened) -- and lay all PC wars to lingering aftereffects of agent orange and its inventors -- but there was something of the ol' epistemic break going on there -- and back to my first musing, I would moralize -- I think that those who fail to learn the lessons of job market history are doomed to force their younger colleagues to repeat them, perhaps as underpaid farce -- (sure are a lot of temporary postdocs on the scene these days,,,, huuummmm) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:39:54 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ada Aharoni Subject: Re: Veterans for Peace & GI Tract In-Reply-To: <199603051527.JAA04217@charlie.acc.iit.edu> Hi, If you are interested in the "Veterans for Peace" address, here it is: Peter B. Shaw shaw@phys.psu.edu They're doing a good job. Best, Ada Aharoni ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 23:39:51 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: ossian >Never mind the straw polls of form, >is there any work on recent prosodies? >Anybody whose music's shocking? > >March Hare first --- new here, so am unaware of back-ramifications of this thread. forgive any redundancy dear march hare re shocking music if i may stretch the term to include play of thought and not limit myself to contemporaneity will alexander jake berry paul celan john donne susan howe macdiarmid re contemp prosodics: no idea. wld truly like to know if anybody's working in that area, tho myself am strictly dumbfounded by the enormity of the task if said work even attempts inclusiveness. later --- chris ------------------------------------- christopher daniels q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 05:29:35 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: FWD: Mexican workers seeking support (fwd) Sending this because I think it worth knowing that workers in the low-wage countries that industries are fleeing to are beginning to protest. Gab. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Mexican Ford workers solicit your support in their battle against > low wages. > > 1996 is a negotiations year between Ford Motor Co. and its workers > in three plants; Chihuahua, Hermosillo and Cuautitlan. > > THIS IS AN ACTION CALL TO SUPPORT THEIR FIGHT AGAINST LOW WAGES > > Presently, wage negotiations are taking place in Mexico for the > Chihuahua and Hermosillo plants. Cuautitlan plant negotiations are > scheduled for the month of March. > > The negotiations in Chihuahua scheduled to be resolved by the end > of January, concluded on Tuesday, February 27, after two > extensions. while negotiations are taking place concurrently with > the Hermosillo plant workers representatives. > > The negotiations for Chihuahua got idled when FORD offered a total > of 15% wage increase against the workers demand of 30%. > > In the last five years, thousands of Brazilian auto workers were > forced to strike twice in order to obtain higher wage increases > than what FORD offered. The FORD workers in England recently came > out of a bitter strike where the main issue was a wage increase > compatible to England's current cost of living. > > Labor leaders in Chihuahua say they were ready to strike if the > gap did not narrow. The final compromise was of a 25% wage > increase. Mexico suffers presently from a 50% average inflation > rate. The price of the basic goods basket is predicted to rise by > over 74%. The basic goods basket includes consumer goods and > services that are all but indispensable to most of the population. > > > The UAW in the United States and the CAW in Canada, are scheduled > to hold wage and contract negotiations with Ford and the other two > auto makers this year as well. > > Although Ford has increased its investment in Mexican facilities > in recent years resulting in sizable profits due to cheaper cost > of labor and production, it consistently follows the Mexican > government austerity program by keeping wages way bellow current > cost of living. > > "FORD" is a four letter word: The feelings of Ford workers in > several countries have been clearly expressed against their > employer by rewriting the company's logo illustrating Ford's place > in their communities. > > Workers in Brazil rewrote the Ford logo to "FOME" which means > "hunger" in portuguese, when in 1991 fought against an 11% > increase proposal at a time when the country suffered an inflation > rate of 1000% plus. English Ford workers have spelled out their > anger by writing "F---" within the famous blue and silver oval. In > the United States, Ford auto workers have qualified their > company's standing in their communities by replacing "FRAUD" for > the company's name. Santos Martinez, from the Cleto Nigmo Urbina > committee spearheading the democratization movement in > Cuautitlan/Ford, says that although they may think of stronger > words, they may not fit in the small oval space, so they have to > settle for FEOS or FUCHI, which means ugly and disgusting in > spanish to depict the company and the labor relations atmosphere > Ford has created in their plant. > > As it has been expressed during the anti-NAFTA activism, the > interests of the workers in the U.S. and Canada in term of better > wages and job security, are directly related to those of the > Mexican workers. > > We ask you to Contact as many of the people listed below and > insist that FORD respect the human dignity of its workers by > affording them just and fair wages. > > C. T. M. > C. Fidel Velazquez, Presidente Vallarta No. 8 Mexico DF. C.P. > 06030 Ph-011-525-703-3112 > > Sindicato Nacional de Trabajadores de Ford Motor Co. Seccion > Cuautitlan M. Juarez Eudonio, Sec. Gral KM. 36.5 Autopista > Queretaro- Cuautitlan, Edo de Mexico Vallarta 8 2ndo piso Mexico, > 4 DF. Ph- 011-525-326-7212, 7375, 7550, 7573 fx-011-525-326-7476 > > Sindicato Nacional de Trabajadores de Ford Motor Co. Juan J. > Sosa, Sec. Gral. Ncl. Kilometro 36 1/2 Carretera Mexico-Queretaro > Col. Lomas del Salitre Cuautitlan, Ixcala Edo. de Mexico > CP. 54750 > ph-011-525-326-7630, 7232 fx-011-525-326-7476 > > Alex Trotman, CEO. Ford World Headquarters The American Road PO > Box. 1899 Dearborn, MI.48121-1899 Ph-313-322-3000 fx-313-396-2927 > > Ford Motors de Mexico Phillippe Mellier, Pres. Reforma 333 Sexto > Piso Col Cuauhtemoc Mexico, DF. 06500 Ph-011-525-326-6230 > fx-011-525-533-3693 > > President Bill Clinton White House 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. > Washington, DC. 20500 Ph-202 456-1111 Fx-202 456-2461 > > Lic. Ernesto Zedillo Presidente de la Republica Palacio Nacional > 06067 Mexico, DF. ph-011-525-515-3717 fx-011-525-515-8005, 5729 > Fax confirmation numbers: 011-525-515-9829, 8256 > > NAFTA Officers: Robert Reich U.S. Sec. of Labor 200 Constitution > Ave. N.W. Washington, DC. 20210 Ph-202-219-5000 fx-202-219-7312 > > Lic. Javier Bonilla Garcia Sec. Fed. de Trabajo Anillo Periferico > Sur 4271 Piso 4 Fuentes del Pedregal Delegacion Tlalpan Mexico. > 14140 Ph-011-525-645-9638 fx-011-525-645-5594 > > For more information contact > TIE-US. > Julio Cesar Guerrero, MSW 7435 Michigan Ave Detroit, MI. 48210 Ph > 313-842-6262 px313-842-0227 > > NOTE: > > You may use this letter or write your own. Please send copies to: > TIE.US > 7435 Michigan Ave, Detroit, MI. 48210 Fx-313-842-0227 > > I support Ford Workers fair wages: > > Wage negotiations between Ford Motor Co. and its workers are > taking place in Mexico and will take place in the US and Canada > this year also. > > Despite the huge profits that Ford has accrued by increasing > operations in Mexico, the company disregards the economic and most > basic needs of workers by keeping their wages low. > > Ford workers in Chihuahua, Hermosillo and Cuautitlan plants more > than need, deserve your support to gain the respect from their > employer in the form of fair wages, hence dignity and decent > living for their families. > > Recent strikes in Brazil and England over wages are a > manifestation of the company's insensitivity to the problem of the > real wages' actual buying power. > > I urge you to use the authority in your capacity to promote fair > wages for Ford workers. It's the just thing to do!!! > ------------------------------ End of forwarded message 1 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:42:21 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: FW: Re: Seals Eyes --- On Tue, 5 Mar 1996 20:44:06 -0500 Kenneth Goldsmith wrote: >On Tue, 5 Mar 1996, Marisa Januzzi wrote: > >> >> On Sat, 2 Mar 1996, Kenneth Goldsmith wrote: >> >> > There has been something bothering me lately. What are those black >> > things under seals eyes--could they be hairs? >> >> Well, I just cannotbelieve no one's framed an authoritative response to >> this! I hope you've had better backchannel mssgs than this one, too. >> >> Anyway my guess wld be they are a formerly vestigial pathos-inducing pattern >> (aka "poetry") >> > >marissa-- > >gosh, nobody's replied to my query. you'd think with such a brilliant >group, one of 'em would've come up with something rather poetic. > >i like your idea the best so far > >peace, > >kenny g > kenny g --- the tear ducts of persian cats are situated at such a spot that their lacrimations leave a stain below the eyes only perceptible when the cats are white. cld be the same w/ seals. tho wldnt water wash off the stains? specialized organs for piercing the vasty deep's primordial gloom and meditating upon submarine perseity is my guess... yrs --- chris ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.6.96 8:28:58 am q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 12:51:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Fwd: Communications Decency Act thanks ron, as a member of the National writers' union, i am pleased that my organization is involved. i noticed that there's a judge buckwalter involved: could he be a former mr. phone-booth from boonesville?--maria d ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 13:51:12 GMT-5 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Peters Organization: Indiana State University Subject: John Cage if anybody still has the address to order the john cage cds and other groovy music, could you please back-channel it to me? thanks, mark ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 14:20:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Phillip McCrum Subject: BOO Magazine now available BOO #6 Includes: Interview with Bob Perelman Poetry by: Bob Perelman Dorothy Truillo Lusk Kevin Davies Louis Cabri Articles by: Zainub Verjee Peter Culley Clint Burnham Dan Farrell Subsriptions are $6, $12(institutions) BOO Magazine 1895 Commercial Drive, Box 116 Vancouver, B.C. V5N 4A6 CANADA for info. contact me, Deanna Ferguson, at pmccrum@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 20:15:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Walter K. Lew" Subject: Re: Pound translation Dear Jerry Rothenberg and others interested in the burgeoning pidgin literary scene, I wanted to add a few more names to the list of interesting Hawaiian pidgin writers that Susan Schultz gave last week. Among younger poets, R. Zamora Linmark (currently finishing up a reading tour for ROLLING THE R's--see below) and Barry Masuda (now studying in the graduate Literature program at UC San Diego) refresh/outrage Hawaiian pidgin by recombining it with other dialects and discourses, such as Masuda's cyberpunk deconstructions of both tourism and local identity movements in Hawaii and Linmark's out-there queer/Tagalog/Hollywood talk. There's a substantial sample of both poets in Premonitions: The Kaya Anthology of New Asian North American Poetry. (By the way, thank you for the positive comments on Premonitions that I have heard appeared on this elist--I think I joined too recently to catch some of them.) In the area of prose fiction, I feel one of the classic works is Milton Murayama's short novel, ALL I ASKING FOR IS MY BODY (reprinted by the U. of Hawaii Press, I believe); his long-awaited second book came out last year, but I haven't had a chance to read it. I agree with Susan Schultz about Lois-Ann Yamanaka's new prose book--it falls far short of the intensity found in her volume of poetry, SATURDAY NIGHT AT THE PAHALA THEATER (Bamboo RIdge Press, 1992). Two other new books to read instead are Kathleen Tyau's A LITTLE TOO MUCH IS ENOUGH (FSG, 1995) and especially R. Zamora Linmark's ROLLING THE R's (Kaya Production 1995). Another Hawaiian writer who sometimes uses pidgin is Gary Pak, whose collection of short stories, THE WATCHER OF WAIPUNA (Bamboo RIdge 1992), unfortunately did not get the type of mainland attention that is being showered on Yamanaka. As for the future, Linmark has the range of interests and energy to constantly experiment that will make each new work a surprise. The remaining part of RZ's tour follows; he's a good reader and will probably also talk a bit about the recent literary use of Hawaiian pidgin: Wed, March 6th: People Like Us (Chicago, IL) @ 7pm (312-248-6363) Thurs, March 7th: Northwestern University (Evanston, IL) @ 3pm Tues, March 12th: UC Berkeley Fri, March 15th: Spruce Street Forum (San Diego, CA) (619-295-0301) The most comprehensive book on the literatures of Hawaii is Stephen Sumida's AND THE VIEW FROM THE SHORE (U. Washington Press 1991); he teaches in the U. of Michigan English dept. In case anyone thinks the above is shameless self-promotion, I have recently given up the chief editorship of Kaya Production. In fact, any mail intended for me should not be sent to Kaya (it probably won't reach me), but to: 8 Old Colony Rd. Old Saybrook, CT 06475 ph & fax: (860) 388-4601 I hope this is useful. Bye for now, Walter K. Lew ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 23:43:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: BOO Magazine I just got a BOO magazine published in Chicago.... perhaps this is a different one? cs ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 23:48:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: BOO Magazine Deanna---sorry about the confusion (mine).... the magazine in Chicago is called BLOO not BOO... chris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 18:58:38 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: Pound translation In-Reply-To: <960306201541_239416979@mail06.mail.aol.com> Thanks, Walter, for a fine list of writers; let me just add the names of Rodney Morales (who was just hired by the U of Hawai'i English department on tenure track--the first local writer in a permanent job). Of course we have a hiring freeze, so we can't pay him next year. His _The Speed of Darkness_ contains very strong short stories, and he's working on a novel that promises to be good. Marie Hara and Juliet Kono Lee are also good Hawai'i writers. Who is Kathleen Tyau? I haven't heard of her, strangely enough. Zack Linmark and Barry Masuda are the two writers who would most appeal to subscribers to this list, I think. Rob Wilson has done some excellent work on Hawai'i writers, too, more theoretical than Sumida. The main rap on Sumida is that he writes almost exclusively about local Asian-American writers, and not about Hawaiian writers (Hawaiian means native Hawaiian). But the book is still extremely valuable. Susan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 10:16:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Poetry City Reading POETRY CITY reading tonight! at Teachers & Writers Collaborative 5 Union Square West, 7th Floor March 7 at 6:30 p.m. Lisa Jarnot & John Godfrey free (212) 691-6590 http://www.twc.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 15:26:26 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Cayley Subject: New (Cybertextual) Work from Indra's Net Comments: To: ws@shadoof.demon.co.uk ** APOLOGIES FOR CROSS-POSTINGS ** Pressing the Key. Indra's Net VIII ------------------------------------------------ Using a development of the form initiated in Book Unbound (Indra's Net VI) this piece allows readers to create and explore collocational blends generated from an article on the relationship between software engineering and experimental poetics written for the electronic journal, EJournal, vol. 6, no. 1 ("an all-electronic, e-mail delivered, peer-reviewed, academic periodical" -- to subscribe, send 'sub ejrnl' to: listserv@albany.edu; to get vol. 6, no. 1, send 'get ejrnl v6n1' to the same address). > one constructs with and against and amongst the code > it can be made to enrich such phenomena > real inscriptions of our most intimate activities > real inscriptions of our creative > and destructive > operations > > so either of these absent agents may be programmers > systematic manipulators of text > authored in the constructive act as > poetry > inscriptions of the code > each term of the code > each term of the field of writing > > press the reveal code key The HyperCard-based (Macintosh-only) cybertextual version of this work can be downloaded from: http://www.demon.co.uk/eastfield/in/indown.html Previously announced, but also new: The Speaking Clock. Indra's Net VII ----------------------------------- ... with acknowledgements to Emmett Williams's 'Poetry Clock' and, more specifically, to John Christie's mechanical 'Word Clocks' ... however this (silent) speaking clock in software both composes from a given text according to quasi-aleatory procedures and actually tells the 'real time': "What if it was impossible to apply a single name from a finite set to a moment which seems to recur in an acknowledged cycle of time? What if it was impossible to apply the word 'dawn' to more than one single instant at the beginning of some one particular day?" (from the given text.) > destroyed warmth true cold > spelt out and riverflow > inscribed on illusion of > real time passing flake > of snow white to > many a different instance > > even last the clock > and time piece unique > name the city this > last even against on > this island impossibly lost > warmth true into would > > tells last breath out > and no like more > than one single instant > at the beginning some > one single instant at > the beginning of entropy -- February 26, 00:49 - 01:02 The Speaking Clock can also be downloaded from the site above. More information on the Indra's Net cybertextual project generally at: http://www.demon.co.uk/eastfield/in/ - - - - - > John Cayley Wellsweep Press [in Chinese HZ: ~{?-U\02~} ~{=[i@3v0fIg~}] ^ innovative literary translation from Chinese ^ 1 Grove End House 150 Highgate Road London NW5 1PD UK Tel & Fax: 0171-267 3525 Email: cayley@shadoof.demon.co.uk Old home (still working): http://www.inforamp.net/~cayley (Expansive) New home: http://www.demon.co.uk/eastfield/ < - - - - - ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 12:21:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: POETRY CITY book offer POETRY CITY, the experimental theme park, is proud to make a special offer to poetix readers: TWO BOOKS BY BILL LUOMA for $10 ppd _My Trip to New York City_ and _Swoon Rocket_, both published by The Figures, sell separately in stores for $11. Just email POETRY CITY at jdavis@panix.com and send your real-world address. We'll send you a bill. But hurry! quantities are limited, and when _My Trip to New York City_ is gone, that'll be it! (_Swoon Rocket_ is available separately for $5 ppd or 20% off--order now, but please, not to the list!) Thanks, Jordan Davis ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 12:33:21 +0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kenneth Goldsmith Subject: Jim Brodey "Heart of the Breath" Readings Comments: cc: jongams@crocker.com Hard Press sponsors two readings to celebrate the release of Jim Brodey's "Heart of the Breath" East Coast When: Wednesday March 13 at 8 pm Where: The Poetry Project at St. Marks Church 2nd Ave. & 10th. St., NYC 212-674-0910 Who: Greg Masters Frank Lima Tom Savage Joel Lewis John Godfrey Tony Towle Bill Zavataky Paul Violi Ed Freidman Gillian McCain Geoffrey Young Yuki Hartmann Barbara Barg Ray DiPalma Sharon Mesmer Steve Levine Rod Padgett Clark Coolidge Charles North David Shapiro Lisa Jarnot Susan Cataldo Eileen Myles Elio Schneeman Michael Gizzi Organized by Michael Gizzi, Joanne Wasserman, & Clark Coolidge West Coast When: Friday April 12 at 7:30 p.m Where: The New College Theater, 777 Valencia Street, San Francisco Who: Bill Berkson Tom Clark Joanne Kyger Larry Kearney Robert Grenier Joanne Kyger will play a tape of Brodey Reading =========================================================================== Kenneth Goldsmith http://wfmu.org/~kennyg kgolds@panix.com kennyg@wfmu.org kgoldsmith@hardpress.com v. 212-260-4081 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 07:49:37 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: FW: Re: Seals Eyes They stay up late into the Arctic night reading Bibles written on grains of rice. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:29:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: NEW BOOK In-Reply-To: <199603071818.NAA00995@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> alert for all interested in Caribbean studies / postcolonial issues / cricket! Kent Worcester's _C. L. R. James: A Political Biography_, first announced by Blakwell and now actually and finally pub'd by SUNY Press, is out and on the shelves. While it is not yet the full bio. we need, it is more detailed than Paul Buhle's book of some years back. Worcester has been working on this for a long time and has studied documents that remain unpublished even now -- Get it quick! Includes a selected biblio. on James with good annotations. An excellent starting place for those new to James's work, and good background material for those who've been reading James all along. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:01:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: Re: ABR >I was off-line for a bit, so may have missed if somebody already answered >our friend's question -- but in case it wasn't answered -- > >the _ABR_ containing Keith Tuma's review is the _American Book Review_, >which name, I suppose, distinguishes it from the _North American Review_, >etc. > Thank you __________________________________ Mark Roberts Student Systems Project Officer Information Systems University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia M.Roberts@isu.usyd.edu.au PH:(02)351 5066 FAX:(02)351 5081 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 19:27:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Golumbia Subject: NYC reading Just found this on a flyer: Lyn Hejinian Ron Silliman Tuesday, March 19, 1996 8:00pm Maison Francaise, Columbia University Admission is free -- dgolumbi@sas.upenn.edu David Golumbia ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 19:29:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Golumbia Subject: ReVersing Poetics: Measure and Rhythm in the Vicinity of the Postmodern MLA 1996 Special Session >Posted-Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 04:15:29 -0500 (EST) >Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 01:10:50 -0800 (PST) >X-Sender: ez013445@peseta.ucdavis.edu >X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.1.1 >Mime-Version: 1.0 >To: cfp@dept.english.upenn.edu >From: Joe Aimone >Subject: ReVersing Poetics: Measure and Rhythm in the Vicinity of the > Postmodern MLA 1996 Special Session >Sender: owner-cfp@dept.english.upenn.edu >Precedence: bulk >Status: RO > >ReVersing Poetics: Measure and Rhythm in the Vicinity of the Postmodern. >Perspectives (aesthetic, political, philosophical, psychoanalytic) on >theories and practices of rhythm and meter re-erupting in recent poetry - - >retroversions, recuperations, reinventions, rediscoveries. Abstracts, >proposals, March 15. Joe Aimone (joaimone@ucdavis.edu), English, University >of California, Davis, CA 95616. > > > >-- >Joe Aimone >Department of English >University of California, Davis >joaimone@ucdavis.edu > > -- dgolumbi@sas.upenn.edu David Golumbia ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 22:52:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: BOO Magazine Deanna-- Wld you like to trade Aerial for Boo? Otherwise can you take 'merican cheques? Thanks Rod ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 20:26:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: dead horses, live theories, bodies trans sending academic poet/ry Jordan davis queried: >Tom, could you elaborate on your intriguing, provocative Levinas >quote a bit? How is the body manifest as a contestation of the >attribution of meaning? And is this contestation unique to the >body? The body seems to me to ground meaning as much as defy it, >and it seems to me that similar claims could be made for any >phenomenon. Maybe I should just read the Levinas: feel free to >tell me so. This says it for me: Invocation Some of us have spent our lifetimes searching our bodies for the letters of flame, when they arise some of us burn and some of us set fires. Deena Metzger, "Invocation" _A sabbath among the ruins_ Levinias quote came from latest PMC tom ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 06:33:03 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: help anybody out there know the word wch means: that portion of grain wch goes to pay the miller like tithe saw it while reading dictionary have lost the word thanks chris ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.8.96 6:33:03 am q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:59:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Walter K. Lew" Subject: Poetry City Dear Maria, Jordan, & others involved/interested in the 3/14 reading at Teachers & Writers Collaborative, In belated reply to Maria's question to "Wall": Yes, I will be reading selections from Premonitions, maybe talk a bit about its structure, intended role. Jordan--Is there any way a VHS deck and monitor (preferable at least 26") can be set up for the reading? I want to show some brief video poetry (e.g. Gloria Toyun Park's work; cf. pp. 172-75 "Red Lolita" excerpts). Let me know so I can prepare. Has anybody out there spent time in Montreal? I'm going up to lecture at McGill on Korean literature for a few days at the end of the month and would like to know what I can do in my spare time. Any leads on interesting cultural resources, poetic history & archives, walks, hiking trails, specialty/used book stores, bars, ethnic subcultures and neighborhoods, etc.? My reading French is passable, but my speaking/listening skills are almost non-existent. Any tips would be appreciated. WKL ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 14:02:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: msgs hi folks, i haven't gotten any POETRIX msgs for about 4 days; what's going on --has someone unsubbed me accidentally, or is something wrong w/ my mailer or yours? concerned, maria d ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 16:14:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: checking I haven't received any mail from the poetics list for 2 days, while all other lists are coming through fine. If this gets through, would someone please let me know? Is there word of anyone else having this problem? I checked my settings at Buffalo and they are all OK. Thanks, Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 13:49:15 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: TINFISH erratum In-Reply-To: To everyone who gets a copy of TINFISH #2: pages 2 and 3 of Joe Balaz's poem are reversed from what they should be. The actual order, then, goes as follows: pages 1,3,2,4,5 make up what should be pages 1,2,3,4,5. Gabrielle Welford was acute enough to realize the error, for which I thank her (even as my feeling about messengers is ambivalent at the moment!). Susan Schultz ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 10:32:09 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Horne Subject: Another patois translation Those of you who liked the Hawaiian Creole English translation of Pound's "The Return" may also enjoy Tom Leonard's spin on WCW's "This is Just to Say." For those of you who haven't come across his work before, Leonard's a Scottish poet who usually writes in a Glaswegian patois: Jist ti Let Yi No (from the American of Carlos Williams) ahv drank thi speshlz that wurrin the frij n thit yiwurr probbli hodn back furthi parti awright they wur great thaht stroang thaht cawld and one more untitled original for good measure: right inuff ma language is disgraceful ma maw tellt mi ma teacher tellt mi thi doactir tellt thi priest tellt mi ma boss tellt mi ma landlady in carrington street tellt mi the lassie ah tried tay get aff way back in 1969 tellt mi sum we smoat thi thoat ah hudny read chomsky tellt mi a calvinistic communist thi thoat i wuz revisiionist tellt mi po-faced literati grimly kerryin thi burden a thi past tellt mi po-faced literati grimly kerryin thi burden a thi future tellt mi ma wife tellt mi jist-tay-get-inty-this-poem tellt mi ma wainz hame fray school an tellt me jist aboot ivry book ah oapnd tellt mi even thi introduction tay thi National Scottish Dictionary tellt mi ach well all livin language is sacred fuck thi lohta thim ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 00:50:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: POETRY CITY book offer Oops---wrong heading.... I have two questions. 1) For Deanna Ferguson---I hope you can get someone to bring copies of BOO to the NYU POERTY TALKS thing that's happening in late march----it'd probably be a great place to sell it to amerikans like me..... 2) I need to backchannel Kevin Killian/Dodie Bellamy, but lost their sirius address.....could anyone forward it to me.... thank you, chris stroffolino ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 22:43:39 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: Jim Brodey "Heart of the Breath" Readings I'd like to add that the West Coast Jim Brodey reading is being organized and presented by Small Press Traffic--in cosponsorship with the Poetics Program of New College. Dodie Bellamy >Hard Press sponsors two readings to celebrate the release of >Jim Brodey's "Heart of the Breath" >West Coast > >When: Friday April 12 at 7:30 p.m >Where: The New College Theater, 777 Valencia Street, San Francisco > > >Who: > >Bill Berkson >Tom Clark >Joanne Kyger >Larry Kearney >Robert Grenier > > >Joanne Kyger will play a tape of Brodey Reading ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 05:50:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: Re: This Is Just To Say My favorite "translation" of that poem is by a woman I was in a show with once. Her name's Rachelle Ray, and I have absolutely no idea what she's up to today, but I've remembered this: This is Just to Say I have packed the clothes which were in the bedroom and which you were probably stroking before breakfast Forgive me he was delicious so sweet and you, so cold _________________ Emily ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 11:56:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: test I have gotten several reports of problems with messages getting posted to the list. I sending this as a test to see if I can figure out what's wrong. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 11:57:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lisa Samuels Subject: Re: Silliman's 60s & another perspective In-Reply-To: <199603051102.DAA14056@ix2.ix.netcom.com> from "Ron Silliman" at Mar 5, 96 03:02:36 am dear ron, et al, you wrote that one did not study 60s poetics in the 60s. during my 1980-84 undergraduate education, i had no idea that anyone was really writing any poetry anymore -- apart from the cookie-cutter lyrics in the -new yorker-, the daunting perfections of -poetry-, etc. in part, that must have been due to the schools i attended -- a small midwestern one, then william & mary, then unc-chapel hill (i was hooked on the transfer system). but still, i should have thought some notion of a live scene might have trickled down. even more (after five years out of the school world), i managed to get completely through my graduate coursework and exams without ever once learning about language poetry, much less any more recent poetic scene, or even any individual not sanctioned by the likes of the yale younger poets award. i had not heard of anyone on this list before about a year and a half ago. i am the first to say my own failure to seek reading i didn't know -- & perhaps not living in american cities -- had everything to do with my ignorance. but i was not, technically, uneducated. i thought this perspective might be worth hearing, given what a blessing the discovery of this world has been for me. it's strange to realize how utterly non-existent one population of the thought & writing world can be for another. yours, lisa samuels ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 13:16:08 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Albert Cook Subject: Re: test In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 9 Mar 1996 11:56:00 -0500 from The message came through OK to me. Albert Cook ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 10:38:50 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: Silliman's 60s & another perspective --- On Sat, 9 Mar 1996 11:57:02 -0500 Lisa Samuels wrote: > i am the first to say my own failure to seek reading i >didn't know -- & perhaps not living in american cities -- >had everything to do with my ignorance. but i was not, >technically, uneducated. > i thought this perspective might be worth hearing, given >what a blessing the discovery of this world has been for me. >it's strange to realize how utterly non-existent one population >of the thought & writing world can be for another. > >yours, > >lisa samuels > lisa --- even tho i live in sf bay area, i didn't quite realize that an avant-garde existed outside of the relatively small forces in academia until i got on a list much like this one in january and commenced putting my foot in my mouth in a very big way. was out of touch for abt 15 years, am complete autodidact, had assumed because of despair that avant-garde had basically become codified, (nonetheless have eyes and could have sought ... did not for various reasons, some of them good.) imagine my delight when informed the opposite! all to say yr not alone in intimations of blessedness. yrs ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.9.96 10:38:51 am q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 11:42:13 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: plz disregard is a test please disregard ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.9.96 11:42:13 am q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 11:49:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: SPT upcoming events Small Press Traffic is presenting two exciting events in the next week or so= . Kevin Killian and Tan Lin =46riday, March 15, 7:30 p.m. at the New College Theater 777 Valencia Street San Francisco $5 Robert Gl=FCck & Carla Harryman Tuesday, March 19, 8 p.m. at New Langton Arts 1246 Folsom Street San Francisco $5 Those hot lights, trained on one's skin, were like the great eyes of God the poet Jack Spicer wrote of in Imaginary Elegies. They see everything, even under the skin where your thoughts are. Your dirty little thoughts. You can take off all your clothes and pretend to be "naked," but you are still Kevin Killian from Smithtown Long Island, with all the petty details that denotes. And yet at the same time the heat made me feel languorous, forgetful, like Maria Montez at the top of some Aztec staircase -dangerous, as though there were nothing beyond the circle of white-no audience, no society, only oneself and the red or purple or black hard-on that floats magically to the level of one's lips. I suppose all actors must feel the same way in some part of being-that the camera's eye represents the eye of God, which at the same time judges all and, threateningly, withholds all judgment till time turns off. - from Kevin Killian's "Hot Lights" The agents ('senders') numbered about forty and the tests included a number, a wild animal with a letter written over his head, two intersected coloured lines, a taste, a pain at some point on the hands or arm, the emotional experiences of a drowning man, and finally what a fireman feels like when he is rescuing a girl. All the stimuli were chose automatically by means of a machine. Listeners were informed of the general nature of the stimulus, whether it was an animal, a number, and so on. There shall be with seraphim and cherubim, there also we shall meet with thousands and thousands of others that have gone before us to that place. enlarged lymph mode divisional sales chart fully jacketed bullet [insert photo here] [insert photo here] [insert photo here] - from Tan Lin's "100 Second Chances" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 14:52:46 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: Silliman's 60s & another perspective >(Lisa Samuels) >during my 1980-84 undergraduate education, i had no idea >that anyone was really writing any poetry anymore -- apart >from the cookie-cutter lyrics in the -new yorker-, the daunting >perfections of -poetry-, etc. ... > even more (after five years out of the school world), >i managed to get completely through my graduate coursework >and exams without ever once learning about language poetry, >much less any more recent poetic scene, or even any >individual not sanctioned by the likes of the yale younger poets >award. i had not heard of anyone on this list before about >a year and a half ago. ... > i thought this perspective might be worth hearing, given >what a blessing the discovery of this world has been for me. >it's strange to realize how utterly non-existent one population >of the thought & writing world can be for another. a while back, someone here suggested the image of a Venn diagram to describe poetry communities in the us--numerous circles, each containing individuals w/ shared aesthetics or experiences; some of those circle partly overlapping, but mostly not, free-floating in space w/out any contact w/ each other... i've found it a very useful picture, added details in my own head (it must, frinstance, have at least 3 dimensions...), and generally hopeless that i could actually draw such a map. more than just LangPo has created a range ov work, and a community, that challenges the received traditions-- & it's sometimes disappointing to me that such are not often included in th discussions here... but lisa reminds that this list, & resources like it, can literally change a reader's worldview, open the atlas to new maps, new territories... not a trivial matter. lbd trr/burning press oh, yeah, lisa: no accident that i ellipsed out part of your original message, the parts where you blame yourself for lack ov exposure to alternatives... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 12:11:10 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: one of my favorites forever! In-Reply-To: <9603090037.AA20761@nzseq1.nz.oracle.com> So glad you brought in Tom Leonard! He has to be one of the funniest and most pertinent poets around. A few more great poems in _The New British Poetry_, especially his version of "Baa Baa Black Sheep." Thanks. Gab. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 15:00:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Access (not in my 60s yet) It's instructive to recall how particular access to this world invariably is. I grew up in a family without books (beyond Readers Digest Condensed Novels) or music, but it was at the edge of Berkeley and my restlessness put me in touch with so many things. Seeing Chris Daniels, who lives 7 blocks from the best bookstore in the USA (1814 San Pablo Ave), write of his imagination of a codified (reified?) avant-garde underscores the problem for each of us. I tend to think that every one of us is in some sense (not Gerry Jamposlky's or Jeremy Tarcher's) a miracle. Somehow we did find our way here. It's a test. I discovered Louis Zukofsky through public TV. Bob Holman is going to change somebody's life with his series--in ways that he cannot predict nor control. Good for him. L-Bob is absolutely right about the existance (and importance) of many other scenes simultaneous to (overlapping with) (contesting against) L-poesy, without which the world would be arid indeed. I think it's important to acknowledge the value in such scenes and not simply theoretically. For me at least, these scenes are precisely what poetry at its best is about. Communitas, Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 17:19:01 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Wood Subject: Re: POETRY CITY book offer Just for my personal and professional curiosity, would you tell me more about Poetry City? Tim >POETRY CITY, the experimental theme park, >is proud to make a special offer to poetix readers: > >TWO BOOKS BY BILL LUOMA for $10 ppd > >_My Trip to New York City_ and _Swoon Rocket_, >both published by The Figures, >sell separately in stores for $11. > >Just email POETRY CITY at jdavis@panix.com >and send your real-world address. >We'll send you a bill. > >But hurry! quantities are limited, and when >_My Trip to New York City_ is gone, that'll be it! > >(_Swoon Rocket_ is available separately for $5 ppd >or 20% off--order now, but please, not to the list!) > >Thanks, >Jordan Davis in space no one can hear you scream in Dallas no one cares... ______________________________________________________________________________ Check out the Voices new poetry website at http://www.connect.net/twood/ the Word, Dallas' monthly arts guide: http://www/connect.net/twood/word.html poetry & video poetry ---- graphic design & database development ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 17:52:27 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Wood Subject: Re: BOO Magazine Deanna, what are the articles about? Tim in space no one can hear you scream in Dallas no one cares... ______________________________________________________________________________ Check out the Voices new poetry website at http://www.connect.net/twood/ the Word, Dallas' monthly arts guide: http://www/connect.net/twood/word.html poetry & video poetry ---- graphic design & database development ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 16:06:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mikl-em Subject: 90's and other perspectives... Lisa's note struck a chord, esp. in light of luigi's reply re: circles overlapping--she having attended w&m and now being at UVA, and I being a graduate of James Madison, a third VA university. I had a professor who talkd about Lpo's, but I gather there was no support for her actually teaching a class focused on them. She accurately reccommended several off-stream poets that I would be interested in, but alas I didn't find them until after my school days were up. I do regret not being able to encounter writers such as Howe and Scalapino in a classroom setting, becuz I find it difficult to blend smoothly into their work reading them on my own. There are other neglected poets though, ones who are outside of some of the movements which get more press, and it took my own active pursuit to uncover Rexroth, Patchen, Antin, Blackburn and others who have been essential for me and my writing. Ultimately Language Poetry intimidates me, not only in the work itself, but since it is the avant-garde establishment, so to speak, must it be dealt with in order to proceed, and, if so, are those who know the present limited by it, ala' the Apexers? Meanwhile, I am trying to find the poets of language poetry, mostly one by one, and I think will eventually be glad for finding them the way I am, rather than buying the whole posse on one ticket. Incidentally, I had a friend who became somewhat of a convert to LangPo from an undergrad class at UVA--taught by none other than Tan Lin who is about to read in the SPD series. How's that for closure? A couple other threads to touch on: I clearly remember scanning the bios in my undergrad anthology, Norton I'm sure, and finding consistently Ivy leaguers and WWII vets, interesting that the GI Bill and the rift from the Vietnam era experience are strange cousins in a way as far as "producing" poets. I know that it isn't so simplistic a case, but does it make you wonder how a generation that isn't touched so intimately with War will differ in focus? Let's hope that we find out. And finally, I know another Bowling Green poet, who also was a JMU undergrad, Denver Butson, who studied under Ted Enslin there--not hugely published, but doing excellent work. take care all, michael --mike@taylor.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 16:16:00 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: dub test (Delete Unless Bernstein) At 11:56 AM 3/9/96 -0500, you wrote: >I have gotten several reports of problems with messages getting posted to >the list. I sending this as a test to see if I can figure out what's >wrong. here's typing at you. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 17:33:37 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: another by tom leonard GOOD STYLE helluva hard tay read theez innit stull if yi canna unnirston thim jiss clear aff then gawn get tay fuck ootma road ahmaz goodiz thi lota yiz so ah um ah no whit ahm dayn tellnyi jiss try enny a yir fly patir wi me stick thi bootnyi good style so ah wull (from the faber book of xx-cent. scottish poetry) great anthology later --- chris ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.9.96 5:33:37 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 20:19:57 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Wood Subject: Re: Spring issue of SPT newsletter Dodie, I've recently joined the mailing list and --since it has spammed my mailbox-- I just got to your message. Pity is there are still three hundred on either side of yours to read. Anyway, if it's not too late, I'd like to recieve a copy of Traffic. I can be reached at PO Box 835984 Richardson Tx 75083 thanks, Tim in space no one can hear you scream in Dallas no one cares... ______________________________________________________________________________ Check out the Voices new poetry website at http://www.connect.net/twood/ the Word, Dallas' monthly arts guide: http://www/connect.net/twood/word.html poetry & video poetry ---- graphic design & database development ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 17:54:55 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: Access (not in my 60s yet) ron silliman --- >Seeing Chris >Daniels, who lives 7 blocks from the best bookstore in the USA (1814 >San Pablo Ave), write of his imagination of a codified (reified?) >avant-garde underscores the problem for each of us. well, yeah, codified: reduced to a code or set of laws, i.e. DEAD. for many many reasons, and to my loss, that was my initial reaction to langpo theory and praxis around and abt 1980. was way too "dense" for me back then. not now tho. in my defense i must say that i moved to this part of berkeley last october. SPD is a wonderful store. i volunteer there off and on and am becoming friends with steve dickison. but SPD for various reasons is unable to stock i wld say MOST of what is going on right now. i know, i've gone in there, TAPROOT in hand, to find nothing i wanted to check out. particularily no vizpo, most tragic. you signed yr post: COMMUNITAS this is the beauty of the web, where a relatively well-known poet like yrself may be approached and engaged in friendly discussion with no question of hassle. obviously you are online because you want to be. if i saw you on the street i would never approach you, not wishing to bug you. the web makes it all so easy, has created a potentially VAST community for poets. very heartening. yrs --- chris ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.9.96 5:54:55 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 20:53:30 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Barton Rollins Subject: A Protest Against the Missile Exercise (fwd) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 96 15:01:40 -0800 From: rhhwang To: teacher@ccunix.ccu.edu.tw Subject: A Protest Against the Missile Exercise A Protest Against the Missile Exercise Starting from March 8th the People's Republic of China will launch a series of missile exercises. The missiles will fall roughly 20 kilometers from the coast of Taiwan. This is a prelude to a full scale military blockade of Taiwan, an island girded by the seas. Freedom and democracy of the 21 million peace-loving people in Taiwan are now being threatened. The international community should not stand by and let the people of Taiwan lose their freedom. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 08:09:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Ellis McAdams" Subject: Re: Wars In-Reply-To: <199603100501.AAA00990@graf.cc.emory.edu> Michael asked yesterday "how a generation that isn't touched so intimately with War will differ in focus?" I think this question is very much complicated by the Gulf War, so that many of the undergraduates presently in universities believe that they have had a close, first-hand experience with war, because, as many of them have told me, for the first time people "at home" were "on the frontlines" a la CNN et al. This issue arose last week in my seminar, "Contemporary Native America," when we read Adrian C. Louis's "Red Blues in a White Town the Day We Bomb Iraqi Women and Children" from his AMONG THE DOG EATERS (Albequerque: West End Press). A few students were angry about what they perceived to be "America bashing"--nothing unusual there--but one of them said something interesting re: Louis's supposed anti-whiteness, "Well, he is, but I don't take it personally." When I suggested that maybe he should take it "personally," that Louis intended to make white people uncomfortable, he and the other students did not seem to grasp what this might mean in a concrete sense. I'm rambling here, but I see a connection, that is, the inability (or unwillingness) of students to put themselves into the equation--of the poem, in this instance--even as they see themselves involved in this TV war. I'm wondering 1) what others' experience about the Gulf War have been in the classroom? and 2) what strategies you use in the classroom to enable students to write themselves into the text? Janet Note: My use of the term TV War is in no way intended to be dismissive of the horror and brutality of what we did in Iraq. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 09:17:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: test i got this msg, thanks, today it seems to be working--md ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 09:17:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: test wow, albert cook, i didn't know you were on the list. awesome, ... my graduate advisor turned me on to your stuff... maria d ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 09:17:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Poetry City/yo wally lew hiya wally, my old friend peter gibian (who you met at your pacific film archive show in the 80s) teaches at McGill, i'll let him know youre coming. or better yet, his e-address is czpg@musica.mcgill.ca so you can get in touch. see ya thurs. (yay!)--md ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 11:17:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: msgs hi guyzies, i'm getting msgs again. thanks for your support, concern, sympathy, and fine suggestions, all of which have been invaluable in my time of need. bests, md ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:44:13 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: test Receiving you cool & exquisite, Charles. Best, Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 11:00:14 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: test likewise, dude ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.10.96 11:00:14 am q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 11:42:09 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Going on without George Burns In-Reply-To: <199603100703.CAA09268@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> recent dialogue interesting to me -- when in university in the 70's (undergrad) never really expected that professors might teach from contemporary poets, and was thus never disappointed (later courses with David McAleavey, lurking around this list, were a welcome change in that regard) -- book stores in D.C. then weren't much help either -- so one seized upon those few openings -- such as the short-lived folio books, where one could actually buy small press books by poets one had never heard of -- followed in the same space by second story books, whose used & new sections included much of interest and where the employees held readings by the likes of Silliman, Hejinian, Palmer, Kelly, and welcomed local poets to read as well -- That store was my introduction to those poets, and I am sure this was the pattern in other parts of the country for other readers -- the academy was not, even for those of us who by then intended to become academics, where one hoped to encounter such works -- Now, as someone who does attempt the teaching of contemporary poets I remind myself of those days as a caution -- who might I be overlooking that my students would later thank me for? The answer now as then is to do what I always did with music -- to make a point of finding and reading poets whose names are new to me -- and that may be, for me, the chief value of this list! this has been a test -- people have been telling me that poetry is not getting through -- no need to respond -- test will resume at the usual location & time ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 20:52:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KUSZAI Subject: ANNOUNCING RON SILLIMAN's _XING_ from MEOW PRESS _Xing_ by Ron Silliman Meow Press Buffalo, 1996 52 pages, saddle-stitched No ISBN Published in an edition of 300 $6 Available from SPD 1851 San Pablo, Ave. Berkeley, CA 94051 Comprised of 364 three line stanzas, this single long poem is the latest installment in Silliman's ALPHABET, a project begun with the publication of ABC in 1983 by Lyn Hejinian in her Tuumba chapbook series. _Xing_ affords the reader the possible view of a writer at work, engaging with the everyday while filtering in/out the effects on consciousness of the material circumstances of the poet's life and thought. Like in Zukofsky's poetry, the domestic scene registers its familial tonality upon the poem's optics: the poet writing and the meditative quality of writing which includes itself as part of the frame of the everyday experience. Curiously enjambed, the materials brought together in this poem represent an encyclopedia of careful attentions, with characteristic wit: (noticing how Big Bird never moves his right wing expect for certain distance shots in which he doesn't open his beak or move his head, I begin to wonder If Bob Dole isn't also a muppet). Cuticle torn down the side of the nail. (p. 23) * * * OTHER TITLES AVAILABLE FROM MEOW PRESS George Albon, _King_ $5 Andrews, Bernstein, Sherry, _Technology/Art: 20 Brief Proposals_ $5 Rachel Tzvia Back, _Litany_ $6 Michael Basinski, _Cnyttan_ $5 Charles Bernstein, _The Subject_ $6 Jonathan Brannen, _The Glass Man Left Waltzing_ $5 Dubravka Djuric, _Cosmopolitan Alphabet_ $5 Robert Fitterman, _Metropolis_ $5 Benjamin Friedlander, _A Knot is Not a Tangle_ $5 Benjamin Friedlander, _Anterior Future_ $5 (New Reprint!) Peter Gizzi, _New Picnic Time_ $5 Loss P. Glazier, _The Parts_ $5 Mark Johnson, _Three Bad Wishes_ $6 Pierre Joris, _Winnetou Old_ $5 Elizabeth Robinson, _Iemanje_ $5 (New Reprint!) Leslie Scalapino, _The Line_ $5 James Sherry, _4 For_ $5 Misko Suvakovic, _Pas Tout_ $5 Juliana Spahr, _Testimony_ $6 Bill Tuttle, _Epistolary Poems_ $5 COMING SOON: Dodie Bellamy & Robert Harrison, _Broken English_ Wendy Kramer, _Patinas_ Meredith Quartermain, _Terms of Sale_ Aaron Shurin, _Codex_ NOW READING FOR SUMMER 1996 Series. SPRING 1996 Series announcement due out soon. * Special offer to Poetics List * Buy any 3 Meow Press books direct from the publisher and receive 1 Free! Buy any 5 and receive 2 Free! Subscriptions to the press are also available. Subscribers receive super-limited edition ephemera items not listed here and not available elsewhere! Please contact Meow Press "back-channel" or by mail 151 Park Street Buffalo, NY 14201 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 22:51:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: COLLEEN LOOKINGBILL READING Thursday, March 14th, the Scottsdale Center for the Arts (greater Phoenix area) is pleased to present a reading by Colleen Lookingbill at 8:00 p.m. Colleen's reading will be followed by an open reading. This is a free event, and all are welcome. Hope those of you living in or visiting the Phoenix area will join us! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:42:35 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Paul Naylor Subject: Counter-example Although I suspect most on the list have had experiences similar to Mike and Aldon and others who discovered contemporary avant-garde poetry outside the academy, I'd like to say that my experience was very different. I was a graduate student at the University of California, San Diego from 1983 to 1989, and, thanks mostly to Michael Davidson, that's where I discovered the poets that now mean the most to me. When I think back on the poets I heard read at UCSD -- Palmer, Howe, Bernstein, Andrews, Silliman, Hejinian, Mayer, McCaffery, Mackey, Mac Low, Blaser, Coolidge, to name just the ones that pop to mind immediately -- and the poets I discovered, yes, in the class room -- Ashbery, Oppen, Creeley, Zukofsky, Niedecker, Spicer, Duncan, Stein, etc. -- well, I feel the need to come to the defense of at least one university. And I am trying to pass that experience on to my students here at The University of Memphis, where I've been able to teach a special topics course to undergraduates on experimental poetry as well as a graduate seminar on that same topic. Since I grew up in Utah (rumor has it the 60s have finally begun there), there was no way I could have discovered the avant-garde in bookstores or at readings during the 70s. Anyway, I guess the moral is: not all universities suppress the new. Paul Naylor MAIL SEND in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" SEND in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 16:26:35 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Perez Subject: avant-garde perhaps I'm just sensitive to this particular word, avant-garde, but with all the other ideas I'm thinking during the day, I just can't agree with it I hope I'm never an avant-garde poet I mean, who do you really think you're leading to artistic salvation? For me, personally, the word reeks of "elitism," belief in linear evolution (the people who use the terms first, second, third-world as a value judgement or "logical" progression). The avant-garde were those _guys_ saying, someday, when you are enlightened like me, you'll understand what I was talking about/expressing. I feel like I'm opening up that whole censor-ship/ what words can we use/ pomo indian thing again. But I guess I'll post anyway. I just want to know if other people out there object to the use of "avant-garde" as a way of describing the writing going on by those on the list and in discussion of the list. I just think it's a little conceited/ ego-centric. Experimental is one thing, avant-garde is another, but I guess, why are we using these adjectives at all. James Perez jmp2p@virginia.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 18:48:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: avant-garde James Perez: >I just want to know if other people out there object to the use of >"avant-garde" as a way of describing the writing going on by those on the >list and in discussion of the list. I just think it's a little conceited/ >ego-centric. Experimental is one thing, avant-garde is another, but I guess, >why are we using these adjectives at all. I object to the vagueness of the terms 'avant-garde' and 'experimental'. Both are over-used and have gazillions of implications/connotations/relationships of/to other words and meanings. Experimental is used to describe nearly everything even slightly new that we can't think of another word for. Home/kitbuilt airplanes are licensed as 'experimental' and must have big letters saying so near the cockpit, even though few homebuilt designs ar really experiments anymore, they've been proven to be as reliable as any other design. As for poetry, it seems to me that any/everything written without an easily accessible narrative is described as 'experimental'. A few months ago Gwyn McVay (I think) coined the term 'quertzblatz poetics' or some such, which i think is just plain fun to say. Same with avant-garde (although the FAA doesn't use that term anywhere). Everyone seems to have different ideas of what this is. In junior high and high-school I was lead to believe that all avant-garde artists were elitist french chain-smoking ascot wearers. We've got to use *some* adjectives to describe what we're talkking about, but why do we use such silly ones? Eryque ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 15:51:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ray Davis Subject: Re: avant-garde >Experimental is one thing, avant-garde is another, but I guess, >why are we using these adjectives at all. Genre is a matter of marketing category & argumentative community, & "avant-garde poetry" is just the name of a genre -- pretty much the same genre as "experimental poetry", I think (speaking as a poetry purchaser). If we choose to take the "its true meaning is..." approach to etymology, the term "avant-garde" is just as embarrassingly inaccurate as "mystery", "realism", "pornography", "science fiction", "the mainstream", "heroic couplet", or "match" (which derives from "nostril"). One might take the embarrassing inaccuracy of the etymology as a hint that genres can't be clearly defined rather than try to stamp out use of genre terms. Then again, coming up with _new_ genre terms can be a very useful exercise, both for marketing purposes & for establishing communities. Ray ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 18:53:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: avant-garde In-Reply-To: <199603112138.QAA02381@uva.pcmail.Virginia.EDU> from "James Perez" at Mar 11, 96 04:26:35 pm For those (relatively) new to this list, there was a long exchange regarding the appropriateness of the tern "experimental" about a year and a half ago. Check out the archive. As for a=v=a=n=t-g=a=r=d=e, it began, after all, as a military term. Need I say more? Love, Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 16:16:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Don Cheney Subject: Re: Avant-Garde kills bugs dead The other day I was thinking of the term "options open". Does anybody know who COINED that? I'm sure I read/heard it somewhere because only terms like "DO NOT VIOLATE DOOR-LATCH INTEGRITY" come to my mind without a proper visa. was that you what said that, ron S.? i'm not sure i think the term applies to my process of writing but maybe (hopefully) my writing allows for an "options open" reading. Don Cheney --------------------------------------------------------------------- James Perez: >I just want to know if other people out there object to the use of >"avant-garde" as a way of describing the writing going on by those on the >list and in discussion of the list. I just think it's a little conceited/ >ego-centric. Experimental is one thing, avant-garde is another, but I guess, >why are we using these adjectives at all. Eryque: I object to the vagueness of the terms 'avant-garde' and 'experimental'. Both are over-used and have gazillions of implications/connotations/relationships of/to other words and meanings. Experimental is used to describe nearly everything even slightly new that we can't think of another word for. Home/kitbuilt airplanes are licensed as 'experimental' and must have big letters saying so near the cockpit, even though few homebuilt designs ar really experiments anymore, they've been proven to be as reliable as any other design. As for poetry, it seems to me that any/everything written without an easily accessible narrative is described as 'experimental'. A few months ago Gwyn McVay (I think) coined the term 'quertzblatz poetics' or some such, which i think is just plain fun to say. Same with avant-garde (although the FAA doesn't use that term anywhere). Everyone seems to have different ideas of what this is. In junior high and high-school I was lead to believe that all avant-garde artists were elitist french chain-smoking ascot wearers. We've got to use *some* adjectives to describe what we're talkking about, but why do we use such silly ones? Eryque ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 19:45:18 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: avant-garde well we're all just trying to write and who cares what it gets called? i myself couldn't care less what anybody CALLS what i write. all i ask is that if they read it, they really READ it and try to meet it halfway. labelling performs many functions, most of them useless to the process of MAKING art. talking abt art is a different story. "avant-garde" seems abt as good a term as any other. ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.11.96 7:45:19 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:20:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: AWOL: FAMOUS REPORTER This message has been forwarded on behalf of AWOL. Please direct all inquiries to AWOL at awol@ozemail.com.au (all prices are in Aust dollars - if you are interested in ordering any titles please contact AWOL for details). Thanks Mark ************************** The following notice has been posted by AWOL on behalf of THE FAMOUS REPORTER. For further information about THE FAMOUS REPORTER please contact them at the address provided. Further information about AWOL's Virtual Bookshop please contact us by using the contact details at the end of this post. ******************************************************* Famous Reporter 12 Famous Reporter is a biannual literary journal, jointly edited by Lyn Reeves (haiku), Lorraine Marwood (100-word essays/poems), Anne Kellas, Angela Rockel, Warrick Wynne (poetry) and Ralph Wessman. Famous Reporter 12 (December `95) features poetry (work by both new and established poets including Doris Leadbetter, Kathelyn Job, Pete Hay, Peter Bakowski, Mark Miller, Rudi Krausmann, Gloria B. Yates, John Malone, Kevin Brophy, Yve Louis, Chris Mansell, Tim Thorne, Rory Harris, Graham Rowlands, Anthony Lawrence & many more), prose (inc. Geoffrey Dean, Leah Nischler, Martin R. Johnson, Anne Shimmins), haiku, an interview (Pete Hay and Richard Flanagan in conversation), reviews of new collections by Nigel Roberts, Kristin Henry/Doris Leadbetter, Sybylla's She's Fantastical anthology, essays and articles (Helen Cerne: `Before Chaos - a visit to Croatia', Sherryl Clark: `Writers at Work' - excerpts from the 3CR radio programme sponsored by the Victorian Writers' Centre, Janice M. Bostok: `A Return to Romania', etc), email commentary (from the Austlit mailing list) by Lyn McCredden and Bill Schaffer, 100-word poems/essays, visits to the N.S.W. Spring Writing Festival in September and to the Tasmanian Poetry and Dance Festival in Sept/Oct, gossip and news.... For FR13, (besides poetry, prose, articles and reviews etc.) we are seeking haiku focussing on relationships; for the 100-word poems/essays section,we require material taking as its departure point a personal response to the opening line of `Jonah's Wife' by Jill Hellyer, published in the Penguin Book of Australian Women Writers, the opening line being "`A likely story,' she said." Contributions - between 95 and 105 words in length - are welcome in verse or prose form, and should reach Famous Reporter by April 12th, 1996. An SSAE is essential for the return of contributions. FR offers modest payment - haiku $5, 100-word essays $5, stories (prose under 500 words) $5, poems $10, short stories & articles $20 minimum, etc - for material. Address submissions (and subscriptions: $14/two issues) to Walleah Press, PO Box 368, North Hobart, Tasmania 7002. ************************************************************************* AWOL'S VIRTUAL BOOKSHOP AWOL will shortly post information about its VIRTUAL BOOKSHOP to its internet contacts and upload information to its web site. A mail order catalogue has been produced for the Salamanca Writers' Festival and will be available throughout the festival. If you are unable to pick up a copy please let us know and we will send you a copy by the most convenient means. Meanwhile, here is a glimpse of what is to come. You can order any of the following magazines directly from AWOL (a discount is available for libraries - please contact us for details. AWOL MAGAZINES Overland 142 (ISSN 0030 7416 88 pages perfect bound). AWOL is pleased to welcome Overland to the Virtual Bookshop. As always issue 142 is a high quality read featuring poetry by Bruce Dawe, Diana Faye, Stella Turner, Susan Hawthorne, Stephen J Williams, Peter Murphy, Sandy Jeffs and Emma Lew. Fiction by Merv Lilley and CC Mitchell together with articles and reviews. A feature of this issue is a tribute to the late Barrett Reid which includes three poems by Reid. $8.00 four W issue 6 (ISSN 1035 7920 Perfect Bound 206 pages) Edited by David Gilbey, Virley Dunning, Muriel Lang & Troy Whitford. This is the most impressive issue of four W to date. Poetry by: Mark Brennan, Anna Voigt, Jenni Munday, Jack Bedson, Margaret Bradstock, BR Dionysius, Mark Smith, M Turbet, Mark Roberts, Ouyang Yu, Anthony Lawrence, Debbie Robson, Adrian Caesar, Michael Crane, Myron Lysenko, Barbara Damska, Philip M Everett, Lizz Murphy, Marietta Elliot, Winifred Campbell, Mark O'Flyn, Troy Whitford, David Gilbey, Bev Stuart, Robert Verdon, John Foulcher, Kathy Kituai, Ron Price, Barbara Bailie Howard, Rory Harris, Jeff Guess, Kyle Powderly, CE Hull, M Thomas Schulze, Ken McKenzie, Bronwyn Rodden, Grahan Rowlands, MTC Cronin, Laureen Williams, Joan Phillip, Muriel Lang, Reg Naulty, Simone Guerin, Wiliam Berrigan, Jules Leigh Koch, Kelly Chan, Robert Doyle Paul c Dodd, David Luttrell & Mark Smith. Prose by: Diane Fordham, Dorothy Simmons, Ian C Smith, Muriel Lang, Pat Skinner, Jane Dowling, Jim Sordi, Virley Dunning, Archimede Fusillo, Barbara Heron, Francesca Rendle-Short, Barbara Brooks, Heather Nicholson, David King & Jack McInnes. Artwork by Rob Harris. $9.00 (issue 4 is also available) SCARP 27 New Arts & Writing (ISSN 0728 7372 66 pages Perfect Bound). Edited by Ron Pretty with assistance from an editorial committee. Once again a very impressive publication from SCARP. Prose by: John A Scott, Lola Stewart, Sue Saliba & John Millet. Poetry by: Tracy Ryan, Jorie Mannering, John Malone, Mike Ladd, Les Wicks, Andy Kissane, Peter Kenneally. Emma Lew, June Owens, Margo Button, CE Hull, Sharon Olinka, Peter Hunt, Margo Button, Deb Westbury, John Kinsella, Marc Swan, Shane NcCauley, Salamander Rilke, Bill Collis & Ron Miller. Artwork by: Christine Dunne, Brian Stewart, Riste Andrievski, Hannah Parker, Susan Fitzgerald, Joyce Allen & Dopiya Gurruwiwi. Reviews of: Lovely Infestation Purcell, The Sky is Moving Hinkley, Do Fish get seasick Murphy, Prismatic Navigation Leabeater & Life's never boring when you're a virgin Beach all by Mark Roberts. Coppertales - A Journal of Rural Arts No. 2 (ISSN 1320 1021 127 pages perfect bound) Edited by Chris Lee & Brian Musgrove. The second issue of Coppertales has confirmed the excitement which surrounded the publication of the first issue. This striking magazine highlights the depth of creative talent in regional Australia. Fiction by: Barbara Ross, Mark O'Flynn, Michelle Mee & Pat Skinner. Poetry by: Estelle Randall, Gary Smith, Robert Verdon, Julie Hunt, C E Hull, John Forbes, BR Dionysius, T M Collins, Jane Williams, Mark O'Flynn, Lorraine Marwood, Sunaryono Basuki, Joan Davis, Andrea Gawthorne, Dorothy Williams & Kate McArthur. Articles by: Ian Syson - 'Literature in Mt. Isa' & Susan Lostroh - 'The art of recycling'. Photojournalism by Lisa Kels. Interviews by: Margo Pye - 'The writing of A Christmas card in April' & Veronica Kelly - '"More Character-driven" An interview with Louis Nowra. Reviews by: C D Yeabsley Iris, it's finished: A childhood in country Queensland - R G Hay, Simon Ryan -In the National Interest Turner & Writing the Colonial Adventure - Dixon, Brian Musgrove The lives of the saints - Berridge, Christopher Lee The Scandalous Penton - Buckridge & Horst Duceveld Metro Arts Pamphlet Poets Series. $9.00 Inklings No.5 (ISSN 1322 7106 56 pages stapled.) Edited by the Inklings Collective Inklings is a Sydney based journal combining creative writing, cultural commentary and reviews, poetry and photography. Originally produced by a number of students and staff at UNSW in the later part of 1993 the journal has now grown into an established biannual publication. Issue 5 contains work by MTC Cronin, Mark Roberts and Mary O'Connell among many others and includes pieces on Jean Luc Godard, colonial discourses on subjugation, and the allegories of Walter Benjamin. $4.00. Tinfish No 1 (No ISSN 46 pages). Edited by Susan M Shultz. The first issue of this Hawaii based magazine is particularly exciting. Tinfish aims to publish "experimental poetry with an emphasis on work from the Pacific region" and includes work by a number of well known Australian writers. Tinfish 1 contains work by Joe Balaz, Peter Kenneally, Kathy Dee Kaleokealoha Kaloloahilani Banggo, John Geraets, Rob Wilson, Spencer Selby, Yi Sha, John Kinsella, Lyn Hejinian, Barry KK Masuda & John Tranter. $4.00 Hermes Issue 12 (ISSN 0 816 116X 108 pages Perfect bound). Hermes has a long tradition of publishing innovative writing and since its relaunch over a decade ago the magazine as gone from strength to strength. It is published annually. Issue 12 is perhaps the best issue yet. It contains poetry by John Tranter, Zan Ross, Peter Minter, Michael Brennan, Karen Attard, Roger Dillon, Alison Clark, Lisa Jacobson, Kate Llewellyn, Kristen de Kline, Tom See, Fecity Plunkett, Ron Pretty, Roger Dillon, Coral Hull and Helen Lambert. Prose by Melissa Brown, Lucy Neave, Adrian Wiggins, Nina Gibb, Andrew Hansen, Phillipa Yelland and Zoe Band. Graphics by Eliza Hutchence, Elena Nesci, Annie O'Rourke, Julian Green, Galea McGregor, Miranda Heckenberg, Aviva Ziegler,Hannah Kay, Charles Lake, Susan Bower, Janice Paul, Rachel Smith and Andrew Stark. Graphics by Susan Bower, Mark Byron and David Langsford. The Famous Reporter Issue 12 Published by Walleah Press PO Box 368 North Hobart Tasmania 7002 ISSN 0 819 5978 Perfect bound Magazine title on spine 128 pages. The Famous Reporter is one of the longest surviving small literary magazines in Australia. While it highlights the work of Tasmanian writers it also regularly includes work by well known mainland and international writers. It is of a consistently high quality and appears regularly twice a year. Issue 12 includes poetry by Nigel Featherstone, Jeff Guess, Brain Purcell, Mark Miler, Rudi Krausmann, Kevin Brophy, Chris Mansell, Tim Thorne, Anthony Lawrence and many more. Fiction by Knute Skinner, Martin R Johnson Alex Butterfield and others together with haiku and articles and reviews. $7.00 ORDER FORM To order any titles from the AWOL Virtual Bookshop complete the order form and mail to Australian Writing On Line, PO Box 333 Concord NSW together with your payment (make cheques payable to Australian Writing On Line). We will shortly be able to accept credit card payments, however, at the present time we must insist upon cheque payments. Please include a phone or fax number so we can contact you if there are any delays in completing your order. All prices are Australian dollars. (overseas buyers please contact us first for payment options). Freight: Please add to the following amounts to your order to cover postage: 1 to 2 items $1.00 per item 2 to 5 items $2.50 5 to 10 items $4.00 over 10 items $5.50 These costs are for delivery inside Australia please contact us for overseas rates. ************************************************ Cut here Title Price .................................. ................ .................................. ................ .................................. ................ .................................. ................ .................................. ................ .................................. ................ Freight ................. Total ................ AWOL Australian Writing On Line awol@ozemail.com.au http://www.ozemail.com.au/~awol/ PO Box 333 Concord NSW 2137 Australia Phone 61 2 7475667 Fax 61 2 7472802 __________________________________ Mark Roberts Student Systems Project Officer Information Systems University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia M.Roberts@isu.usyd.edu.au PH:(02)351 5066 FAX:(02)351 5081 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 00:53:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: avant-garde >well we're all just trying to write and who cares what it gets >called? i myself couldn't care less what anybody CALLS what i write. >all i ask is that if they read it, they really READ it and try to >meet it halfway. chris, i agree completelike, > labelling performs many functions, most of them >useless to the process of MAKING art. talking abt art is a different >story. "avant-garde" seems abt as good a term as any other. but i thought the issue was *talking* about art? eryque "i left my tonsils in san fransisco" gleason ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 22:06:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: what a difference a decade makes In-Reply-To: <199603120502.VAA25822@sparta.SJSU.EDU> my own recollections to do with local variance (ask your zoning commission about it) -- Paul's later, enviable transit thru UCSD testimony to the value of Davidson's presence and the foresight of several others on that campus at that time -- On the other hand, at that same undergraduate academy where I could not expect to learn of innovative new poetries, we were required to take a course in African-American lit. crit., thus avoiding the now commonplace mistake of thinking that it all began with H.L. Gates & la bell dame hooks -- One looks around, locates that which is of use at whatever UNIverseCITY one has managed to get into, and heads straight for it -- Again, what I was more worried about looking back to my own education was the thought that there may be writers I should be introducing to my students to whom I have blinkered myself in one way or another -- I experimented for a time with the writing of avant garde verse, but gave it up as insufficiently innovative -- I am now determinedly guarding my derriere -- I am, you guessed it, a derrieridian ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 22:49:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Quartermain Subject: Ghost books _Imagist Anthology 1930_, Edited by Glenn Hughes?, Forewords by Ford Madox Ford and Glenn Hughes. London: Chaoot and Windus, 1930, lists at the end of its "Bibliography" on pages 153-154 four titles by William Carlos Williams: Tempera. 1913. Kora in Hell. 1920. Four Grapes. 1921. In the American Grave. 1925. Does anyone know of any other ghost titles, announced (or even promised)? + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Peter Quartermain 128 East 23rd Avenue Vancouver B.C. Canada V5V 1X2 Voice and fax: 604 876 8061 + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 23:21:18 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: FW: Re: avant-garde --- On Tue, 12 Mar 1996 00:53:28 -0500 Eryque Gleason wrote: >>well we're all just trying to write and who cares what it gets >>called? i myself couldn't care less what anybody CALLS what i write. >>all i ask is that if they read it, they really READ it and try to >>meet it halfway. > >chris, i agree completelike, > >> labelling performs many functions, most of them >>useless to the process of MAKING art. talking abt art is a different >>story. "avant-garde" seems abt as good a term as any other. > >but i thought the issue was *talking* about art? o yeah, i forgot abt that ... >eryque "i left my tonsils in san fransisco" gleason chris 'i left my foot in my mouth' daniels sort of tastes like chicken, actually ... -----------------End of Original Message----------------- ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.11.96 11:21:18 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 23:46:18 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: Ghost books Peter Quartermain wrote: >Does anyone know of any other ghost titles, announced (or even promised)? Hi Peter . . . the 1st thing that popped into mind was the book by Dorothy L Sayers that her publishers kept announcing year after year, after she had quit writing detective stories, but she kept dangling this one last book at them season after season, called, "Thrones, Dominations." It was to her career what "Answered Prayers" was to Truman Capote's. Okay, ghost books-probably hundreds (dozens?) of readers have wondered whatever became of Robin Blaser's book of "Astonishments," after his announcement of it twenty years ago at the end of Jack Spicer's "Collected Books." Peter, you are in as good a position as anyone to answer that question!! (There was also Stan's announcement-was it in 1970?-of the imminent publication of Spicer's "Vancouver Lectures.") But both these books will appear I'm sure, years down the trail, and so do not possibly qualify as "ghost books"? XXX Kevin (Killian) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 02:53:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: FW: Re: avant-garde >chris 'i left my foot in my mouth' daniels > >sort of tastes like chicken, actually ... yours too? after a good jog does it taste like dark meat cooked in a light garlic sauce? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 02:56:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: Ghost books >not possibly qualify as "ghost books"? XXX Kevin (Killian) Kevin, you're older than 30, aren't you? :-) sorry, it's three in the a.m. of the morning over here, bedtime for bozo! OOOO (i get it) Eryque ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 12:39:07 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "William M. Northcutt" Subject: avant-garde someone, and forgive my faulty memory, has recently written a good piece on the notion of avant-garde and all the problems with recent books on the subject, in Contemporary (contemptuous?) Literature. As for my own feelings about "avant-garde" as a word used to describe the works of people such as Pound, Marinetti, H.D., Williams, Reznikof, W. Lewis, Spicer, Desnos, Queneu, Breton, O'Hara, Dorn, Bernstein, Silliman, etc...the problem rests in using the term as a concrete rubric through which to discuss these writers. I mean, there are ways in which the term can be used so loosely as to apply it to Bly and even Fred Turner, since the term is a relative term. The trouble, as far as I see it, is in trying to once and for all codify a term. It may also be that in many cases we don't like to admit that there are definite similarities between some aspects of Dana DDDDDDDjjjjjjjjjjjjjjoyyer's work and, let's say, Jim Mc Manus's work, or more likely, V. Seth's and Jim Mc Manus's, and that there are some recognizable similarities between Silliman's work (all glories be to my favorite of all contemporary poets) and that of one of my least favorite writers ever, someone such as Fred Turner (embraced as he whole-heartedly is by some of the fascists of Europe I've met in the last year--I'm not directly attacking Turner here). The point I'm rambling on about here is that no term such as a-g or experimentalist can ever be less than abstract, or more correctly said, relativist. These thoughts are nothing new to the list. Just my 1 and 1/2 Cents worth. And has anyone yet tried to disentangle how it is that Pound's work, fascist and goddamned hard-assed as it is has aspects which make some of the more humane and radical aspects of lang-po impossible without there having first been Pound? I don't buy the pure methodology excuse. But I would like to know what some of you think. By the way, do any of you know whether Nate Mackey is on line? end of the pot pourri. William Northcutt ----------------------------------- William Northcutt Anglistik I Universitaet Bayreuth 95440 Bayreuth Tel: 44 921 980612 Fax: 44 921 553641 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 09:19:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Landers Subject: Re: avant-garde all poetry is exactly the same and no other word should be used when discussing poetry because then the buyer will have no idea what is in the book and will have to rely exclusively on the opinions of others while accidentally buying what might have been called traditional work or what might have been called academic work when what was wanted might have been called postmodern or avant-garde but the language police didn't let anyone make any categories so noone bought any poetry Peter if you're ever on EFnet, drop in to #postmodern we're talking a lot about Pound/Olson/Zukofsky and say hi to me _Peter_ or Landers landers@vivanet.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:09:42 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: avant-garde Has anybody yet seen _The Dada Market_ anthology from Southern Illinois U. Press, can't remember the editor's name? Haven't cracked it yet, but bought it almost entirely for the cover, which is a photo of an apparently genuine RC-Cola roadside-dilapidated convenience store whose sign says "The Dada Market." I love it. Gwyn ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:17:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ursula K Heise Subject: Re: avant-garde In-Reply-To: Hello, I'm new to this list and have been following the discussion re. the term "avant-garde" with great interest over the last week or so. Some of the problems in using this word that have been pointed out seem to relate not to any fuzziness in the term itself, but to the problem of evaluating work with no or little historical distance. By which I mean: I think we probably all have a more or less defined and probably also shared idea of who and what the avant-garde of the 1910s, 20s, 30s was. But once it gets to the 70s and onward, it becomes harder to tell because in order to know what the avant-garde is "avant" of, you have to know what comes "apres," i.e. whether the avant-garde is followed by anything (if not, it presumably isn't one). So is the irony of the term that you only know what's avant-garde in hindsight? Ursula K. Heise Columbia University ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:31:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matthew Gary Kirschenbaum Subject: (fwd) NEW: DADA - Dada mailing list I'm assuming this is legit. Or does it matter? Forwarded message: > DADA on majordomo@teleport.com > > ~~~:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.~~~~~ > tHE dADA mAILING LiST > ~~~~~~~~^~~~~~~~~==~~~~!~~~~~~ > > Subscribers to the dada mailing list send their insane ramblings to > the other subscribers, who are encouraged to embellish these ravings > with their own lunacy, in an ongoing torrent of meaningless babble! > It amounts to a verbal jam session. > > Some of this prose is appended repeatedly, creating long epics of > startling beauty and hilarity. Other times, no one adds to a piece, > and it stands on its own until forgotten. > > To subscribe, send mail to majordomo@teleport.com with the command > > subscribe dada > > in the body of the mail. > > Protocol and guidelines may be found on the dadaFAQ website at > http://www.teleport.com/~xeres/dadafaq.html > > Owner: The Robot Vegetable veg@vegtabl.com > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > ================================================================= Matthew G. Kirschenbaum University of Virginia mgk3k@virginia.edu Department of English http://faraday.clas.virginia.edu/~mgk3k Electronic Text Center ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 11:00:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: Re: avant-garde It seems to me not un-noteworthy to consider the difference between writers who label themselves and their friends avant-garde and writers who GET labelled avant-garde. This is how I interpreted (chris daniels?) the original question. If we call *ourselves* avant-garde, what are we contributing to? (possibilities: a linear view of time, a lack of responsibility/interest in being understood "because we're ahead of our time--100 years from now, you'll thank us!", the labelling process in general, and perhaps--as cd suggested--a kind of elitism, etc.). I do think there is a difference between those (Marinetti, Pound, et. al) who say "*I* am the voice of the next generation" (which automatically shuts the current generation up, because they can neither "prove" nor "disprove" it--saying "I'm avant-garde" poses me against the possibility of critique) and those whose writing simply IS such a "voice," but who don't go to great lengths to assert/promote it that way...it is the self-assertion, the passionate interest in labelling & grouping *ourselves* (inclusively/exclusively) or identifying with a "movement" that seems...discussable [sic]. E ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Emily Lloyd emilyl@mail.erols.com "Sometimes, in a flash, I wake up and reverse the direction of my fall" --r.barthes ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 12:25:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: avant-garde is it conceited to be avant-garde? on the frontlines? front lines of what. First lines. The first lines are the avant-garde of the poem. Are we conceited to be talking about poetry. Poetry isn't talking about us, right? So why talk about ourselves as experimental. What's the hypothesis. Well we weren't talking about _you_... Is it egocentric to be writing at all? Yes. It is. It's egocentric to be writing it all, to be monumental, or to be called monumental. But what else is there to do. What else. What else. Is it mental to be conceited. It is conceited to say I'm in charge now (Alexander Haig). It is conceited to talk about ourselves. What do we talk about. Do we talk about poems. Whose poems. Aha. Well we do talk about poems sometimes, or something in a poem. We talk about how to put a poem over, or what is it at the beginning, the avant-garde of the poem. The poem is not avant-garde. The poem is ahead of us? How does a poem get from the avant-garde to the end. What is an end. ("What is the name of this poem.") Is the job of the discussion which is not one of us to become accurate. To describe truthfully. To be? The Job of discussion is why we are avant-garde. How many poets live in apartment 2-B. Is the poetry we're talking about more appropriately called anti-teleological. Or is it as Tony Door says the commutative function of the alphabet. What are we doing. If we have to talk about it by groups, if we have to talk about a group coming after an avant-garde group, then what do we talk about. Paradigms? (Hi Gale!) What is different seems to be located around _what we want_. I don't think it's conceited to talk about what we want. Maybe it's conceited to speak for we. What we. Well it's important to talk about what is wanting. Very? Very wanting. Ambition has been defaced. What is the new ambition. What do they want these new writers we don't understand. The cover of Time magazine. To talk to improbable objects. To speak to them. Impossible? the bouquet years ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 08:53:19 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: pedal cuisine eryque yeah sometimes it tastes like the dark meat w/garlic more typically a benignly insolent ragout redolent of pickapeppa sauce and mogen david garnished w/sour cream o it's grand i'm tellin you highly recommend it to all blatherskites chris ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.12.96 8:53:19 am q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 11:45:00 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: 16 OZ or At 12:39 PM 3/12/96 +0100, William Northcut wrote: >And has anyone yet tried to disentangle how it is that Pound's work, fascist >and goddamned hard-assed as it is has aspects which make some of the more >humane and radical aspects of lang-po impossible without there having first >been Pound? I don't buy the pure methodology excuse. But I would like to >know what some of you think. Bernstein has an essay in _A Poetics_ called "Pounding Fascism (Appropriating Ideologies--Mystification, Aestheticization, and Authority in Pound's Poetic Practice)" (whew) which, although one could maybe argue that it relies on the notion of "pure methodology", as I see it simply makes the point that "some work may usefully evade any single social or political claim made for or against it because of the nature of its contradictions, surpluses, and negations." Or, Pound the fascist could also be Pound the artist because both were Pound the human being and neither the fascist nor the artist fully disappeared at the presence of the other; they formed this hybrid which created _The Cantos_. But the artist tricked the fascist because the poetic text, once released, escaped the control of (the artist too, but more importantly:) the fascist. By the way, I once had a dream that I went to this shack where Ezra Pound lived with his son, and ol' Ez sat out on his porch with us, waving a shotgun menacingly. Steve ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:09:53 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: avant-garde Since everybody's putting in their 2 cents worth, here's my irrelevant comment re: avant-garde. Short poem by Mandelstam, translated by Sidney Monas: [#357] As if, somewhere, a heaven-stone wakes the earth -- a poem fell, a disgrace, not knowing its father; creators accept the inexorable as it comes -- it is what it is -- no one judges it. Voronezh, 20 Jan. 1937 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 17:07:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: 16 OZ or In-Reply-To: > At 12:39 PM 3/12/96 +0100, William Northcut wrote: > > >And has anyone yet tried to disentangle how it is that Pound's work, fascist > >and goddamned hard-assed as it is has aspects which make some of the more > >humane and radical aspects of lang-po impossible without there having first > >been Pound? I don't buy the pure methodology excuse. But I would like to > >know what some of you think. The answer is yes: in my view, Bob Perelman's Pound chapter in THE TROUBLE WITH GENIUS is a little closer to the mark on this score than Bernstein's essay (which Steve Carll mentioned). Here's a quote that's not too substantive but gives a sense of what Perelman wants to do. ". . . when we come to THE CANTOS we cannot wish away the connections between the ambition and the agression that are positive virtues in his early writing and the rhetorical violence and moral blindness of his later politics. Painful as Pound's Fascism and racism are, and attractive as some of his poetry, literary insights, and pronouncements can be, nevertheless I want to insist on reading him whole. . . . What gives the best of Pound's writing its power cannot be dissociated from the worst of it." (pp. 30-1) Also, though it's anachronistic with regard to langpo, I must mention Olson's record of struggle in the volume edited by Catherine Seelye. The contradictions you mention are at the heart of that book. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 684-6277 There is some excitement in one corner, but most of the ghosts are merely shaking their heads. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 17:52:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Baker Subject: Derrida's Style I've been meditating the issue of Derrida's style, in response to an earlier posting, i.e. whether his style is in some sense a choice in relation to a possible audience. First, not to sound too pedantic, but any comments about his style would have to be directed to the French texts, *not* the translations. My own view is that he is one of the great stylists in the French language *ever.* In my own work with Derrida's text, I find that I am drawn in and engaged in a textual space that is unique and challenging, on a number of levels. Derrida has also been involved in a self-commentary, especially in texts like _Cinders_, available in bilingual edition, that approaches a kind of poetics of the text. The tape of Derrida reading _Feu la cendre_ with French actress Carole Bousquet (des femmes, 1986) is a real experience. His centering on the phrase *il y'a la (accent grave) cendre* [literally: there is ash there] reverberates in many ways consonant with the most interesting work (I think of Susan Howe, among others) investigating historically charged linguistic expression. I've already referenced my recent book on Derrida, _Deconstruction and the Ethical Turn_. For a more recent work in progress, I would invite list members to visit my Towson home page and the paper there: Deconstruction and the Question of Violence. http://www.towson.edu/~baker Though not specifically on topics of poetics, it does take a kind of cultural studies approach to issues of violence in reading of Derrida's essay "Force of Law" in juxtaposition to _Pulp Fiction_. Backchannel commentary welcome. Peter Baker ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:55:22 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: avant-garde "avant-garde" is certainly problematic, and usually just irrelevant as a term. Perhaps even worse is "academic" and "anti-academic." If the work is worth attending to it seems to make such distinctions seem silly. As critical terms they aren't worth much at all. Mei-mei Berssenbrugge just visited here and said something about her work being "anti-academic" and that just seemed wrong to me. I told her it wasn't "anti" it just was "not" academic. She said "thank you." That seems about right. But where I need to use such a term as avant-garde, or experimental, even where I don't want to, is when I'm trying to explain such work to those who are not familiar with it, or with a lot of contemporary poetry, at all. That is, much of my work over the last decade or so has been to present such work to audiences outside colleges & universities, & to do so I've had to write a lot of grant applications and proposals to a lot of different foundations, agencies, museums, & more. Usually I've tried to make the word "innovative" do the work, but that too gets old after awhile. But saying nothing seems not to distinguish the work from any other, and that won't do. And one doesn't necessarily want to give a large educational lesson to these agencies and organizations; to some one may not want to give any or a lot of examples to read. So if anyone wants to suggest new terminology, there are probably many of us listening. charles ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 17:34:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Steve Carl's dream "By the way, I once had a dream that I went to this shack where Ezra Pound lived with his son, and ol' Ez sat out on his porch with us, waving a shotgun menacingly." I once spent a morning with Omar Pound in Orono during which he was interviewed by the local Bangor literary critic, a semi-retired highschool English teacher who remembered that Ezra had been notorious for his politics. About halfway through the interview, he leaned forward, conspiratorially, and asked Omar, "So what kinda commie was your father, anyway?" Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:01:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: avant-garde Avant-garde has two connotations that I find not so problematic, certainly compared with experimental -- a term that is genuinely hideous (suggesting "scientism," or else the idea that the formally progressive poet does not know what he/she is writing and is trying to "find out"): One is its connection with an internationalist tradition that goes back into the mid-19th century (and which predates the "academic" tradition as we tend to think of it in the US), from Bertrand and Blake to the present. That's what I tend to think of as the identarian view of this community, and one I feel lots of sympathy for/interest in. The other has its roots right smack in the term's military origins. The avant-garde is precisely that portion of an army that gets "killed" in large quantities, the people who storm the barricade and provide (with their own bodies) the stepping stones that those who follow will climb upon. When I think of the Mina Loys, the Walter Conrad Arensbergs, the Fenton Johnsons (not the novelist!), the Marsden Hartleys, the Amos Zu Boltons, Else von Freytag-Loringhovens, the Dan Proppers, the Bob Browns, the Mary Butts, the Steve Jonases, the Harold Dulls, the Seymour Fausts, the Lew Welchs, the William Andersons, the David Schuberts -- the analogy seems more exact than I care to think. Not that all "ended badly," but rather that their extraordinary work went by with remarkably little notice for all the notoriety that the very few (Joyce, Pound, Stein, Williams etc) who managed to get through the net received. There is, I think, an inherent sacrifice not only in writing poetry but in writing poetry that makes demands on readers, that readers also perform at their best. Like so many other writers, I have benefitted greatly in ways that I cannot articulate from every one of these poets (and hundreds, maybe thousands, more). The term "avant-garde" suggests to me just that sacrifice. When I was a teenager, I wrote poems more or less exactly like those I was reading in the magazines (let's say Alan Dugan, George Starbuck, Donald Justice, for examples). By the time I was 21, I had had poems accepted by Poetry, TriQuarterly, Poetry Northwest, Southern Review, Chicago Review and a host of others. The minute I started to actually work seriously on developing a real aesthetic, I became "unpublishable" for several years. Every time I see a list of, say, NEA or Guggenheim winners, I re-experience all the sensations that went with that. When I read Mark Wallace's comment that only two members of the SUNY Buffalo graduate writing program have gotten fulltime tenure-track jobs in recent years, compared with the few hundred gigs there have been, I realize that this sense is not my own unique experience, and that sacrifice is inherent in what I and others do. I don't like the phrase "anti-academic," since the academy is in fact not the problem but rather the normative traditions that have held a certain hegemony over institutional culture for the past 50 years, one that declares American poetry to be a tributary of the British (and which in turn tends to ignore such great UK poets as Bunting, Raworth, Jones and others like Thomas A. Clark). While all institutions have their own internal logics (that can serve as an anchor or drag), it seems a mistake to confuse the field with the players. Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 21:49:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: avant-garde >So if anyone wants to suggest new terminology, there are probably many of us >listening. > >charles i'm a corn field (all ears) eryque ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:45:46 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: avant-garde well i guess the only thing that really bothers me abt it is the tendency to group poets (wch means their WORK) into camps (phalanges) and so seeming to disallow any peaceable dialogue. all the rest of it i can live with --- ron silliman's vilification of the term "experimental" is on the money, though i at least DO learn to write as i write --- i get the drift ron's posting abt the front lines being killed off in a kind of sacrifice said it for me i have bob brown's 1450-1950, it's one of my most treasured books, but who the hell is thomas a. clark? i'll find out, you bet. but the list goes on and on. i'll just mention hugh macdiarmid who was a remarkable poet by anybody's standards, a poet as worthy of profound study as pound or olson; and also a living, breathing, amazing poet who gets little attention as far as i can tell: armand schwerner. later ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.12.96 6:45:46 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 21:21:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: avant-garde In-Reply-To: <199603122255.QAA06504@freedom.mtn.org> What about "what works" [for me]? In most other areas a successful experiment is a "success" not "experimental" and the forefront becomes present or it disappears. Does the experimental or avant-garde still need to be defensive? It is poetry. tom On Tue, 12 Mar 1996, Charles Alexander wrote: > "avant-garde" is certainly problematic, and usually just irrelevant as a > term. Perhaps even worse is "academic" and "anti-academic." If the work is > worth attending to it seems to make such distinctions seem silly. As > critical terms they aren't worth much at all. Mei-mei Berssenbrugge just > visited here and said something about her work being "anti-academic" and > that just seemed wrong to me. I told her it wasn't "anti" it just was "not" > academic. She said "thank you." That seems about right. > > But where I need to use such a term as avant-garde, or experimental, even > where I don't want to, is when I'm trying to explain such work to those who > are not familiar with it, or with a lot of contemporary poetry, at all. That > is, much of my work over the last decade or so has been to present such work > to audiences outside colleges & universities, & to do so I've had to write a > lot of grant applications and proposals to a lot of different foundations, > agencies, museums, & more. Usually I've tried to make the word "innovative" > do the work, but that too gets old after awhile. But saying nothing seems > not to distinguish the work from any other, and that won't do. And one > doesn't necessarily want to give a large educational lesson to these > agencies and organizations; to some one may not want to give any or a lot of > examples to read. > > So if anyone wants to suggest new terminology, there are probably many of us > listening. > > charles > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 00:32:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: DC Reading Sunday, March 17 @ 3 PM Leslie Scalapino & Rod Smith publication reading for Leslie's new _The Front Matter, Dead Souls_ (Wesleyan) & my _In Memory of My Theories_ (O Books). at DCAC, 2438 18th St NW, WDC (near 18th & Columbia) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 01:46:21 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Perez Subject: "scientism" what's wrong with 0the word experiment that as Ron says makes it "genuinely hideous." What is "scientism" any way. I think poets do find out what they are doing through writing, they find a lot of things through the process of writing, that's part of why I write. Who out there hasn't thrown something together and came back to it later and said, "I never knew that was there." And this whole thing about the relation of experiments and experimental method. Experimental method (scientific) was created through experimentation for the purpose of western science. There were experiments (ask Aristotle) far before experimental method (a product of the enlightenment?). Experimental method is for the purpose of forming theories and natural laws, and for that matter an experiment can really only be successful by proving the hypothesis do be wrong. I find it funny that western sciences closest thing to fact is negation, i.e. the earth does not orbit the moon (sorry couldn't think of a good example), because it only takes one experiment to prove a theory wrong even if that theory has been said to be correct by a thousand other experiments. Stein has a high percentage of "not" in her work, she knew something, Scalapino picked up on it to ("A crowd and not evening or light"). Anyway, experiments and experimental method are not dutifully intertwined, experimentation, for me, involves exploring new boundaries for narrative, verse, etc. But in that way, every poet is experimenting with some thing or other. James Perez jmp2p@virginia.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:14:18 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R I Caddel Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 11 Mar 1996 to 12 Mar 1996 In-Reply-To: <199603130504.FAA25616@hermes.dur.ac.uk> chris daniels wrote: > i have bob brown's 1450-1950, it's one of my most treasured books, > but who the hell is thomas a. clark? i'll find out, you bet. Thomas A. Clark hails from Grennock, and currently runs Moschatel Press with his wife Laurie in darkest Gloucestershire. Following a runs of books from Jonathan Williams' Jargon (latest: A Still Life, 1977) he's produced a range of tiny-but-perfect pamphlets & cards from Moschatel, as well as Madder Lake (Coach House 1981) Tormentil & Bleached Bones (Polygon 1993) and appeared (with Barry MacSweeney and Chris Torrance) in The Tempers of Hazard (Paladin 1993). The Paladin one was almost a ghost book, and could be hard to find: they were taken over by Rupert Murdoch during publication, and when MacSweeney phoned for extra copies c. six weeks after publication, he was told "Mr. Murdoch ordered it to be burned"... Here's one from The Hollow Way (Moschatel 1983): freshness gathers in a jar the evening waits on splendour we have come home from war only the indigent wander ask nothing of life the hours have no halter the garden gate is ajar purpose does not falter abundance ripens in a bowl the telephone rings in an empty room a turbulence of trapped wings in the corner reclines a broom - hope that helps! xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx x x x Richard Caddel, E-mail: R.I.Caddel @ durham.ac.uk x x Durham University Library, Phone: 0191 374 3044 x x Stockton Rd. Durham DH1 3LY Fax: 0191 374 7481 x x x x "Words! Pens are too light. Take a chisel to write." x x - Basil Bunting x x x xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:57:59 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "William M. Northcutt" Subject: Pound on the front pohch waving his shotgun Thank Steve and others for reminding me about Bernstein's and Perelman's pieces on Pound. I think the problem of avant-garde that I'm trying to get at is one that Keith Tuma and others have expressed, that a good deal of the discourse on the a-g tends to see AN avant-garde rather than multiple movements/discourses/etc which we discuss as being avant-gardist. Same with modernism as opposed to modernisms. It gets even stickier when we go beyond saying, "Pound's work is both fascist and radically non-authoritarian"--that is, it gets stickier when we try to nail down for sure what is and what isn't fascist. Of course, some aspects are obvious. What I'm interested in is how, let's say, Pound's glorification of Jefferson is both fascistic and radically humane at the same time. Or to take it to a different place, how Olson's work is both a conservative KULCHURal effort and an elaborate critique of that same culture. William Northcutt ----------------------------------- William Northcutt Anglistik I Universitaet Bayreuth 95440 Bayreuth Tel: 44 921 980612 Fax: 44 921 553641 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 01:00:05 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: FW: "scientism" --- On Wed, 13 Mar 1996 01:46:21 EST James Perez : >what's wrong with 0the word experiment that as Ron says makes it >"genuinely hideous." check out jake berry's "articulating freedom" in taproot 7/8 and also JUXTA #5 (i think) at GRIST --- he briefly sums it up, well enough for me anyway >What is "scientism" any way. here's what webster sez: 2. the principal that the scientific method can and SHOULD BE (my emph) applied in all fields of investigation for me that's precisely what ron was after --- the SHOULD BE part --- SHOULD BE = DEATH to a poet's work and a poet's experience of the work of other poets i myself can not seperate theory from praxis any more than i can seperate form from content --- maybe i'm dumb or something, but it seems impossible for me, maybe a matter of training --- i dropped out of highschool, total autodidact, etc and if we continue to call a poet "experimental" whose work has not appreciably TRANSFORMED itself over a period of years (this is going on these days in a very big and scary way), what are we saying abt ourselves? just because a poet's work has no truck w/ academic values does not for an instant mean that poet is not in practice just as conservative and dependent on received "wisdom" --- wch is something all of us are fighting against >I think poets do find out what they are doing through writing, they find a >lot of things through the process of writing, that's part of why I write. >Who out there hasn't thrown something together and came back to it later >and said, "I never knew that was there." with some thing or other. no one in their right mind wld ever argue w/ what you've said here tho i think artists neither experiment nor hypothesize when they are making art, but seek to unfetter, unless they are not intuitive in the least, wch seems impossible to me --- this has been my experience and my wish for what it's worth --- and i think poets MUST keep that part of their process alive or their process reaches stasis BUT for me "experimental" is not a good one at all --- my stuff is being accepted by JUXTA and VISION PROJECT and ANTENYM --- as far as i can tell my stuff is nowhere near as outside as poets like spencer selby, jim leftwich, tom taylor --- my process has never been one of experimentation --- i work painfully in an agon of revision and careful attention to MEANING first and foremost and if anybody called my stuff "avant-garde" i'd think they were crazy or just kind of unaware --- i feel as much an affinity w/ the early anthony hecht as i do w/ paul celan or susan howe for example it occurs to me that the scientific process UNFETTERS KNOWLEDGE and after all art is partially at least a process of aquiring some kind of knowledge. all the great scientists have been hugely intuitive and the scientific community thrives on ferment and logomachy, so, well, just gabbin ... later --- chris > >James Perez ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.13.96 1:00:05 am q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 02:02:59 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: thanks richard caddel thank you for the information, richard, and the very beautiful poem by thos a. clark --- i will definitely look into this poet yrs --- chris ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.13.96 2:02:59 am q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 02:08:03 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: thos a clark's ghost book "rupert murdoch" is obviously a croesus and a stultus but "ordered it to be burned" is amazingly terrifying ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.13.96 2:08:03 am q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 08:58:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen or Peter Landers Subject: Re: 16 Oz or >Or, Pound the fascist could also be Pound the artist because both were Pound >the human being and neither the fascist nor the artist fully disappeared at >the presence of the other; they formed this hybrid which created _The >Cantos_. But the artist tricked the fascist because the poetic text, once >released, escaped the control of (the artist too, but more importantly:) the >fascist. or read _Your Witness_, a poem by Charles Olson ... "If a man isn't willing to take some risk for his opinion, "either his opinions are no good or he's no good" Peter Landers landers@vivanet.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 21:54:34 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Subject: Re: avant-garde In-Reply-To: <199603122255.QAA06504@freedom.mtn.org> personally, I was always comfortable describing my own poetry as academic, although no " real" academic poets ever considered it as such. I remember once discussing with Ted Greenwald how little most "academic" poets actually knew about any traditional poetries. Of course, that was some time ago, perhaps the situation has changed. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 08:18:14 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 11 Mar 1996 to 12 Mar 1996 Nice that this is the second time within a year (go back through the poetics list archive) that thomas a. clark has been the subject. Richard Caddel's list leaves out one title I have, which is Dwellings & Habitations, from Prest Roots Press in 1993. Kate Whiteford contributes drawings which do justice as well. Among the pages saxifrage on a wet rock face samphire in a salt marsh skeins of mist among bog cotton a depth of sky in a shallow pool quite in the rib-cage of a sheep's carcase always nice to have a reason to look back at thomas a. clark's work. charles alexander ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:12:49 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: avant-garde I liked Ron Silliman's connecting "avant-garde" with the sacrificial aspect. But it seems to cover an awful lot of territory; how, for example, is Marsden Hartley's career sacrificial? Are all the modernists sacrificial victims on the altar of a few mighty masters who get all the attention? Doesn't that just play into the cliche of the heroic artist? What lasts, what gets read, what people like in the next millenium, is still very open to question. I think the critical & public judgements about art works and artists should be evaluated very specifically with respect to the individual artist, within a historico-biographico- aesthetic frame. To lump all the "experimental" artists out there as part of a great creative sacrifice punished by the critical/academic dead wood powers-that-be leaves out all the historico-biograph-aesthetic details. For example, each of the ignored great Harlem Renaissance poets & writers have white counterparts - sacrificial or no - who for a long time got more attention than they did. But fame/sacrifice are not simple contraries. Don't talk to me about the heroic sacrificial artist any more; tell me about the talented artist who makes some work that's gonna stand no matter how many or few discover it. The vagaries of criticism & attention have always been just that. I know this sounds like denial, disinterest, or indifference to many of the burning "canon" issues discussed here, but often such discussions leave out the particular, actual art works, and end up echoing or rehashing real aesthetic issues of long ago. What are the aesthetic - as opposed to literaro-political - issues of today? - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 06:44:16 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Subtext Readings in Seattle Here's the schedule for the next few months: the first two readings listed were curated by Ezra Mark, the last two are the first of four readings to be curated by Nico Vassilakis. Thursday March 21 Nico Vassilakis & Laura Feldman Thursday April Jeanne Heuving & Dan Farrell Thursday May Joseph Keppler & Gerald Burns Thursday June Michael Magoolaghan & Catriona Strang with Francois Houle All readings at the Speakeasy Cafe at 2304 2nd Avenue in Seattle's Belltown district at 7:30pm. Donation of $5. Also of note, David Bromige will read at Open Books at 2414 N 45th Street on April 11th. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:04:25 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Paul Naylor Subject: avante-garde and other terms I find the discussion of the possible adjectives for the poetry we discuss on this list very useful and productively problematic. I'm facing a very practical problem on this issue. I'm in the process of writing a book on contemporary poetry that focuses on six poets -- Susan Howe, Nathaniel Mackey, Charles Bernstein, Lyn Hejinian, Kamau Brathwaite, and M. Nourbese Philip -- and I'm struggling with that necessary adjective to put after that requisite colon in my title. Like Charles, this is a practical problem of addressing an audience that may not know who these poets are and would like ("require" may be more accurate, since my first audience will be publishers of academic books) some way of initially categorizing (an awful yet necessary stage in this scene of writing) the writers I'm discussing. I too find "experimental" the least appropriate term, and I do like the term "avant-garde" because it taps in to the tradition Ron mentions, but it does carry too many "berets and black clothes" connotations for too many people. Again like Charles, I tend to use the term "innovative," but I doubt that there is a poet out there who doesn't consider his or her work to be "innovative" in some sense (I'm sure Mark Strand considers his work "innovative," but I'm also fairly sure that he wouldn't consider his work "avant-garde"), so it may not do the work of distinguishing the poets I'm concerned with from the poets I'm not concerned with. I'd prefer not to pin these poets down with a single adjective, but I don't think that will fly in the realm of discourse I've chosen to enter with this book. So I'd greatly appreciate any suggestions about how do deal with this nagging but (it seems to me) necessary issue. And, yes, this post is the product of tenure-angst. Paul Naylor SEND in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" SEND in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:19:52 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: avante-garde and other terms In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:04:25 -0600 from On Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:04:25 -0600 Paul Naylor said: >not to pin these poets down with a single adjective, but I don't think that So I'd >greatly appreciate any suggestions about how do deal with this nagging but (it >seems to me) necessary issue. And, yes, this post is the product of >tenure-angst. --How about "swell"? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:43:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: should be = death forgive the provocative appropriation but I'm hearing things that remind me of the "rules" thread from last year roughly this time aka "reverse" and I'd like to float the waterlily that there are some ideas one works on and adjusts these being ones politics aesthetics and general way you know life and when description cools it becomes imperative maybe but what do you call that then that saying to yourself no not that do this is that learning? or writing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:56:22 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Paul Naylor Subject: Re: avante-garde and other terms Henry -- "swell" is perfect, and much more compact than "Poets Paul Likes," which is the real answer to my dilemma -- but since I'm not Helen Vendler, I don't think I can get away with it. Paul Naylor MAIL SEND in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" >From: IN%"POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU" "UB Poetics discussion group" 13-MAR-1996 09:40:48.81 >Subj: RE: avante-garde and other terms > >On Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:04:25 -0600 Paul Naylor said: >>not to pin these poets down with a single adjective, but I don't think that > So I'd >>greatly appreciate any suggestions about how do deal with this nagging but (it >>seems to me) necessary issue. And, yes, this post is the product of >>tenure-angst. > >--How about "swell"? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 16:00:00 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R I Caddel Subject: Carlyle Reedy Carlyle Reedy's new book from words worth books: Obituaries and Celebrations . 0 906024 05 6 . 9.95pounds plus post words worth books, BM Box 4515, London WC1N 3XX Carlyle's had work in loads of anthologies from "Children of Albion" (196-something) to "Out of Everywhere" (recently plugged on this list, Reality Street, 1996) but very few solo publications. I failed to get her to do one with Pig, years ago, there's a slim pamphlet called "The Orange Notebooks" (Reality Studios, 1984) - and now this. It's really nicely produced, too. f i r e lights b o n e s the chinese cast of faces recognized hair wet soft caught in hands familiar lilies of solomon Ash in the instant I realise now that this will look very odd on some folks' equipment - oh well, you'll just have to go and buy it... Richard Caddel ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:53:57 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Re: Ghost books These books are _not_ ghost books. The imagist anthology was a copyeditors nightmare, done in such a rush that the typos throughout the book are well documented and easy to notice by comparing the anthologized pieces with the originals. So to to answer your question, all of these are slight typographical errors of the original titles of Williams second through fifth books. Of course I'm new to this list, perhaps your definition of ghost titles includes any book mentioned in print, reguardless of textual elements mired in error. davebaratier@mosby.com ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Ghost books Author: UB Poetics discussion group at INTERNET Date: 12/03/1996 00:59 _Imagist Anthology 1930_, Edited by Glenn Hughes?, Forewords by Ford Madox Ford and Glenn Hughes. London: Chaoot and Windus, 1930, lists at the end of its "Bibliography" on pages 153-154 four titles by William Carlos Williams: Tempera. 1913. Kora in Hell. 1920. Four Grapes. 1921. In the American Grave. 1925. Does anyone know of any other ghost titles, announced (or even promised)? + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Peter Quartermain 128 East 23rd Avenue Vancouver B.C. Canada V5V 1X2 Voice and fax: 604 876 8061 + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:03:54 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: should be = death In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:43:21 -0500 from On Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:43:21 -0500 Jordan Davis said: >forgive the provocative appropriation >but I'm hearing things that remind me >of the "rules" thread from last year >roughly this time aka "reverse" >and I'd like to float the waterlily >that there are some ideas one works >on and adjusts these being ones politics >aesthetics and general way you know This sounds like what the deathly Blasing was describing - the fusion of form and politics > >life and when description cools >it becomes imperative maybe but >what do you call that then that >saying to yourself no not that do >this is that learning? or writing Maybe choosing? Somewhere in Shakespeare's sonnets, I forget which one, he distinguishes between political maneuverings and something else, a commitment or dedication (to love? to art? God?) he calls "hugely politic". I suppose this HAS all been discussed before, on some thread or other; the dividing line between art & politics is essentially un-markable on any abstract scale of apprehension, yes; but I guess when I think of "poetics" (and what do I know about it?) I'm thinking of the graininess of the maker's work - the sound, the rhythm, the crossweave, the stealth, the obstacles, the finish, yeah, the form. And the human & maybe transhuman (along with political) impulses behind it. -HGould ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:42:00 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: avante-garde and other terms At 09:04 AM 3/13/96 -0600, Paul Naylor wrote: > I too find "experimental" the least >appropriate term, and I do like the term "avant-garde" because it taps in to >the tradition Ron mentions, but it does carry too many "berets and black >clothes" connotations for too many people. Again like Charles, I tend to use >the term "innovative," but I doubt that there is a poet out there who doesn't >consider his or her work to be "innovative" in some sense (I'm sure Mark Strand >considers his work "innovative," but I'm also fairly sure that he wouldn't >consider his work "avant-garde"), so it may not do the work of distinguishing >the poets I'm concerned with from the poets I'm not concerned with. Last year two of my poems appeared in a UK little magazine called _Terrible Work_, and the contributors' notes in the back referred to me as an "expansionist." Elsewhere in the issue, the editor mentioned preferring that term to "linguistically innovative", "avant-garde", "experimental", "post-modern", etc., but he didn't really say why, except to note that some minimalism could also be expansionist. I guess what's supposed to be expanding are the possibilities of language, but in practice the term sounds kind of ominous, like "imperialist" or "neocolonial" or something. Yikes! I think Paul Naylor may have hit on something with his distinction between a single, monolithic AVANT-GARDE as opposed to many avant-gardes. If used in this way, much of the elitist hot air is deflated, since any single avant-gardist is one among many, and even one's particular AV-GD group is one group among many. Of course, "the avant-gardes" as a whole can still be opposed to "the mob" or whatever, but I think there's something to be said for speaking and hearing terms like this carefully and conscientiously, rather than simply rejecting them because they may need a little further elaboration due to historical-cultural baggage they've acquired. This baggage is exactly what needs to be sorted through. Steve ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 13:53:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: 16 Oz or In-Reply-To: Have you read the radio broadcasts? If you haven't, let me assure you they contain some of the worst anti-semitism I've ever read. I can't read Pound anymore; he sickens me. The artist didn't trick the fascist; the fascist did his disgusting dirty work, did damage. Alan On Wed, 13 Mar 1996, Karen or Peter Landers wrote: > >Or, Pound the fascist could also be Pound the artist because both were Pound > >the human being and neither the fascist nor the artist fully disappeared at > >the presence of the other; they formed this hybrid which created _The > >Cantos_. But the artist tricked the fascist because the poetic text, once > >released, escaped the control of (the artist too, but more importantly:) the > >fascist. > > or read _Your Witness_, a poem by Charles Olson ... > > "If a man isn't willing to take some risk for his opinion, > "either his opinions are no good or he's no good" > > Peter Landers > landers@vivanet.com > With some new texts and image files - http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Other images at http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 13:57:34 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: what is poetics Lesson 12 in HG's Back to Basics course. Half hour after I posted last message expounding on poetics as close reading, I happened upon the following (in Poetics of Cavafy, by G. Jusdanis): "I take poetics to mean a theory of literature that seeks a methodical knowledge of the principles underlying it. It defines literature and its subdivisions, as it also establishes the criteria and standards by which literature has meaning and value. As Tsvetan Todorov points out, poetics does not propose a close reading or a description of a particular work, nor does it promise to name the text's message; rather it explores the laws governing the production of literature. Poetics is concerned with the properties of literary discourse; it differentiates the codes specific to literature as opposed to those of other arts, such as painting, architecture, or dance. In other words, poetics represents the theory of a particular art - literature - in the system of arts." HG ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 15:43:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: NYC Poetry Talks, fwd from R. Fitterman NYC Poetry Talks: a convergence of questions March 29, 30, 31, 1996 Organized by Robert Fitterman and Stacy Doris Panel Discussions **New York University: Silverstein Lounge and Jurow Lecture Hall** 101 Main Building (NE corner of Washington Square Park) Poetry Readings **Biblio's Bookstore** 317 Chruch Street (1 block south of Canal Street) **The Ear Inn** 326 Spring Street (Corner of Washington Street) **Ichor Gallery** 127 W. 26th Street (between 6th & 7th Avenue) **St.Mark's Poetry Project** 2nd Avenue & 10th Street **Segue Performance Space** 303 E. 8th Street (between Avenues B & C) Friday, March 29 3:00 Opening Remarks 3:30>>Poetry & Definition (I) Joe Elliot Robert Fitterman Andrew Levy Kristin Prevallet Rodrigo Toscano 3:30>>Poetry & Definition (II) Lee Ann Brown John Byrum William R. Howe Garrett Kalleberg Heather Ramsdell Rod Smith 5:00>>Poetry & Community Tim Davis Jeff Derksen Stacy Doris Kimberly Lyons Sianne Ngai Joe Ross 5:00>>Poetry & Audience Michael Friedman Judith Goldman Dan Machlin Melanie Neilson Fiona Templeton 6:30>>Poetry & Collaboration Elena Alexander Michael Basinski Martine Bellen Heather Fuller Kim Rosenfield Cole Swenson 10:30>>Poetry Reading at St. Mark's Michael Heller Michael Basinski Jeff Derksen Chris Funkhouser Joel Kuszai Kristin Prevallet Lisa Robertson Cole Swenson Saturday, March 30 10:00>>Poetry & Tradition (I) Dan Farrell Liz Fodaski Ben Friedlander Robert V. Hale Catriona Strang/Nancy Shaw 10:00>>Poetry & Tradition (II) Louis Cabri Lisa Jarnot Bill Luoma Doug Rothschild Chris Stroffolino Mark Wallace 12:00>>Poetry & Poetic Forms Beth Anderson Steven Farmer Jessica Grim Joel Kuszai Sean Killian Lisa Robertson 12:00>>Poetry & Technology Jordan Davis Chris Funkhouser Brian Kim Stefans Samuel Truitt 2:30>>Reading at The Ear Inn Elena Alexander William R. Howe Nancy Shaw Catriona Strang Chris Stroffolino Rodrigo Toscano 6:00>>Reading at Ichor Gallery Stacy Doris Steven Farmer Dan Farrell Robert Fitterman Ben Friedlander Jessica Grim Melanie Neilson Kim Rosenfield 10:00>>Book Party at Segue 12:00>>Party Party @ Bill Luoma's Apt 280 Court St #4 Brooklyn, NY 11231 (between Douglass & Degraw) 718-596-1752 F train to Bergen St, follow traffic on Bergen to Court, left. Sunday, March 31 3:00>>Readings at Biblio's: Beth Anderson John Byrum Louis Cabri Heather Fuller Sianne Ngai Joe Ross Mark Wallace 4:00>>Readings at Biblio's: Lee Ann Brown Tim Davis Michael Friedman Lisa Jarnot Bill Luoma Doug Rothschild Rod Smith 5:00>>Readings at Biblio's: Martine Bellen Garrett Kalleberg Sean Killian Andrew Levy Dan Machlin Heather Ramsdell Samuel Truitt 6:00>>Readings at Biblio's: Jordan Davis Joe Elliot Liz Fodaski Robert V. Hale Kimberly Lyons Brian Kim Stefans Fiona Templeton A presentation of New York University's School of Continuing Education, in conjunction with the General Studies Program. Special thanks to Dean Gerald Heeger (SCE), Dean Steve Curry (GSP) and the SCE Writer's Community for their support and assistance. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 15:50:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Another one for the academics As per the list guidelines, I announce: A piece I wrote AGES ago is just out. Some on this list might be interested. "Literary History and the Problem of Oppositional Practice in Contemporary Poetry," *Cultural Critique* 32 (Winter 1995-96): 153-186. Although the piece is "about" poetry, there's no actual citation of poems. It's really about Robert Langbaum, using Langbaum's 1957 book "The Poetics of Experience" to argue that prevailaing notions of poetic history constitute a repressive univocal mechanism -- also, it makes a plea at the end for a more Foucauldian genealogy (thus more or less describing my current project). I extend the same offer that I made for my American Imago piece a couple weeks back -- anybody wants it should mail me and I'll send a xerox gratis (sorry, they didn't send offprints). Apologies for redundancy: if I'd known this piece was going to come out on the tail of the other one, I would have sent them together. As it was, I mailed the Lacan article this week. As it's a wee bit of labor on my part, I'd ask that folks who are likely to paper their birdcages with either article don't ask. Also, before I forget: a piece on the Irish poet Thomas Kinsella entitled "Kinsella, Geography, History" should be out *any day now* in SAQ. I'll send that too if you'd like. Send your addresses again, too -- I wrote them on address labels. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 684-6277 There is some excitement in one corner, but most of the ghosts are merely shaking their heads. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 15:45:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Howard Shoemaker Subject: Re: avant-garde In-Reply-To: <199603130521.AAA00662@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> from "Automatic digest processor" at Mar 13, 96 00:02:15 am William Northcutt writes: "And has anyone yet tried to disentangle how it is that Pound's work, fascist and goddamned hard-assed as it is has aspects which make some of the more humane and radical aspects of lang-po impossible without there having first been Pound? I don't buy the pure methodology excuse. But I would like to know what some of you think." I think this is a pretty fascinating question. Perelman's Pound chapter in The Trouble with Genius takes it on in more depth than anything else i've seen. But still leaves much to wrestle with... steve ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:36:08 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ada Aharoni Subject: Re: avant-garde In-Reply-To: <199603132045.PAA42746@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU> Hi! And has anyone tried to protest how it is that Pound's work, fascist and goddamned Hitlerite ... is so much discussed in this list? I don't buy the pure methodology excuse or any other pitiful excuse. What I suggest is -- just bury the guy and forget about him, alongside his his "genuis mates" Hitler and Mussolini. Ada Aharoni ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:02:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: avant-garde Hey, I heard a rumour there's a new bernadette mayer book out on nude-erections does anybody know if this is true? chris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 15:04:00 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: turn of the repressed At 11:36 PM 3/13/96 +0200, Ada Aharoni wrote: >What I suggest is -- just bury the guy and forget about him, alongside his >his "genuis mates" Hitler and Mussolini. It would be nice if things were this simple, wouldn't it? Steve ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 18:50:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Golumbia Subject: Re: turn of the repressed >At 11:36 PM 3/13/96 +0200, Ada Aharoni wrote: > >>What I suggest is -- just bury the guy and forget about him, alongside his >>his "genuis mates" Hitler and Mussolini. > >It would be nice if things were this simple, wouldn't it? Well, I don't think burying people is too complicated, but if those three haven't been embalmed, they must stink pretty badly. -- dgolumbi@sas.upenn.edu David Golumbia ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 19:00:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: let's talk about fascists, bay-bee... At 11:36 PM 3/13/96 +0200, Ada Aharoni wrote: > And has anyone tried to protest how it is that Pound's work, fascist > and goddamned Hitlerite ... is so much discussed in this list? > > I don't buy the pure methodology excuse or any other pitiful excuse. > >What I suggest is -- just bury the guy and forget about him, alongside his >his "genuis mates" Hitler and Mussolini. Eek, I mean, gosh, I don't even LIKE Pound's stuff (except the loose translations), but--flaming guyzie-with-1001-liberal-causes that I am--I can't agree with agreeing NOT to discuss him just because his politics repulse me. All the more reason TO discuss him. If I only read/discussed the poets that didn't offend me in some way politically, I'm not sure WHO I'd read. . It is important, tho, to discuss him as we *are* discussing him--fully acknowledging his fascism, etc., which often gets edged out by that wet, black bough in classroom discussions. Vivas to you, Henry, for your post on sacrificial a-g poets. (& I don't mean that in no Whitmanian sense, neither) If we want to say "why talk Pound, who's been done to death, when we could talk about harlem renaissance poets," then I'm all for *that*. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Emily Lloyd emilyl@mail.erols.com "I mistrust your bitch."--Nietzsche ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 19:46:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: let's talk about fascists, bay-bee... In-Reply-To: <199603140000.TAA28138@mail.erols.com> But what does it mean to "fully acknowledge his fascism"? Does it mean to read his fascist texts, or just to talk about them? Does it mean to read his poetry or just to talk about it? Hatred makes me sick. I have trouble with Kerouac, Eliot, and the like. A survivor once told me if I ignored the anti-semites I'd hardly have anyone to read. But it's the same problem for me, say, with Henry Miller - much as I appreciate his support of AN, his justification of woman-beating on occasion is difficult for me to take. Also given the shit in the world at the moment, the subject header for this thread is insulting. I don't find fascism fun. Alan On Wed, 13 Mar 1996, Emily Lloyd wrote: > At 11:36 PM 3/13/96 +0200, Ada Aharoni wrote: > > > And has anyone tried to protest how it is that Pound's work, fascist > > and goddamned Hitlerite ... is so much discussed in this list? > > > > I don't buy the pure methodology excuse or any other pitiful excuse. > > > >What I suggest is -- just bury the guy and forget about him, alongside his > >his "genuis mates" Hitler and Mussolini. > > > Eek, I mean, gosh, I don't even LIKE Pound's stuff (except the loose > translations), but--flaming guyzie-with-1001-liberal-causes that I am--I > can't agree with agreeing NOT to discuss him just because his politics > repulse me. All the more reason TO discuss him. If I only read/discussed > the poets that didn't offend me in some way politically, I'm not sure WHO > I'd read. . It is important, tho, to discuss him as we > *are* discussing him--fully acknowledging his fascism, etc., which often > gets edged out by that wet, black bough in classroom discussions. > > Vivas to you, Henry, for your post on sacrificial a-g poets. > (& I don't mean that in no Whitmanian sense, neither) > If we want to say "why talk Pound, who's been done to death, when we could > talk about harlem renaissance poets," then I'm all for *that*. > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Emily Lloyd > emilyl@mail.erols.com > > "I mistrust your bitch."--Nietzsche > With some new texts and image files - http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Other images at http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 16:54:02 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: avant-garde schuchat: >I remember once discussing with Ted Greenwald how little most "academic" >poets actually knew about any traditional poetries. Of course, that was >some time ago, perhaps the situation has changed. abt ten years ago i was at a party w/ a bunch of comp lit grad students (cal berkeley) and there was the usual for that day talk abt the frankfort school, anti-oedipus --- i was entirely lost so got drunker and drunker. at some point somebody pulled down the oxford shelley and began reading first lines of poems and asking people what were the titles of the poems. i got them all, beat the shit out of the entire bunch of em. i'm still amazed. i mean, shelley? ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.13.96 4:54:02 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:02:23 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: avante-garde and other terms paul --- how abt colon Poets What I Read During Summer Vacation ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.13.96 5:02:23 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:07:11 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: should be = death >there are some ideas one works >on and adjusts these being ones politics >aesthetics and general way you know > >life and when description cools >it becomes imperative maybe but >what do you call that then that >saying to yourself no not that do >this is that learning? or writing i hear that loud and clear chis ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.13.96 5:07:11 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:15:01 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: 16 Oz or >Have you read the radio broadcasts? If you haven't, let me assure you >they contain some of the worst anti-semitism I've ever read. I can't read >Pound anymore; he sickens me. The artist didn't trick the fascist; the >fascist did his disgusting dirty work, did damage. o yeah those broadcasts are some sick shit. that's the thing for me as well w/ pound, being myself a jew. wch is why the ONLY pound i can read is the pisan cantos where pound is convinced he is soon to die for his naive treason and he KNOWS what a fool he's been and he tells us so. i can't stand him as a person either, but some of those cantos are unspeakably honest and terrible and beautiful. it does not redeem his idiotic racism one jot, can not palliate the fact that he took his amazing talent and crapped all over it for the sake of that sub-primate mussolini and his thug cohorts scattered all over europe. but some of those pisan cantos are among the greatest poetry. chris ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.13.96 5:15:02 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:33:13 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: let's talk about fascists, bay-bee... >Vivas to you, Henry, for your post on sacrificial a-g poets. >(& I don't mean that in no Whitmanian sense, neither) >If we want to say "why talk Pound, who's been done to death, when we could >talk about harlem renaissance poets," then I'm all for *that*. yep chris >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Emily Lloyd >emilyl@mail.erols.com > >"I mistrust your bitch."--Nietzsche ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.13.96 5:33:13 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 22:52:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: Re: let's talk about fascists, bay-bee... At 07:46 PM 3/13/96 -0500, Alan Sondheim wrote: >But what does it mean to "fully acknowledge [Pound's] fascism"? Does it mean to read >his poetry or just to talk about it? Read it; talk about it. Preferably in that order. Or don't read it, and don't talk about it. >Hatred makes me sick. I have trouble with Kerouac, Eliot, and the like. Some years ago I interviewed Rita Dove for a feminist newsjournal. I asked her if her advice to women writers would be different from her advice to men. She said something along the lines of, "To women, I'd say, don't miss reading Hemingway just because he's a sexist man. To blacks, don't miss out on reading so-and-so because they're racist & white." I fully agree. Often there's something to learn from these bad folks. This could be anything from "knowing thine enemy" to useful ideas sitting on a page right next to insulting crap, as I often find with the man down there in my signature quote. Hatred makes *all* (at least, most) of us sick. Your "having trouble" does not saint you. If we need to get into a "who's more marginalized and mad at the bad bad world" contest, I'll be happy to throw my stats into the ring. I apologize if the subject header offended (Alan, whoever else) (whoops, it's on this message, too). I do not think fascism is "fun." The header does not connote "fun" to me. I was thinking of the Salt-n-Pepa song "Let's Talk About Sex"----i.e., we need to talk about the things in our lives that affect us, scare us, are surrounded by silence, NOT *avoid* talking about them. Sex and fascism--poor interchangeables, I realize. On the other hand, maybe not. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Emily Lloyd emilyl@mail.erols.com "I mistrust your bitch."--Nietzsche ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 00:19:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Re: Pound I'm posting the following for Laura Hope-Gill. We hold just one subscription to the list so as not to be swallowed with duplicate poetics mail. > >To:UB Poetics discussion group >From:laurahopegill@halcyon.com (Laura Hope-Gill) >Subject:Re: Pound > > > >You can't kill a poet such as Pound; we can only engage him in battle >throughout our own work, not essays or e-mail, but poetry, that place >between dream and history, the place from which Pound wrote. In her essay >"What would we create?" Rich quotes Rukeyser speaking of two kinds of >poetry: > >"the poetry of 'unverifiable fact'- that which emerges from dreams, >sexuality, subjectivity-- and the poetry of 'documentary fact'-literally, >accounts of strikes, wars, geographical and geological details, actions of >actual persons in history, scientific invention. > "Like her, I have tried to combine both kinds of poetry in a >single poem, not separating dream from history-- but I do not find it >easy." > >Pound also wrote both kinds in single poems. He did not find it easy either. > >Poems create space in the universe (this also from Rich). The spaces >created balance the weight of material history (weaponry, stripmalls, etc) >but also the weight of ideas. To face Pound, poets have to create poems >which balance the bastard out. We have to descend into the same dark dream >to undo on the poetic level what's been done on the historic. That's our >job. > >Get to work. > >Laura >laurahopegill@halcyon.com > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 07:58:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Jaeger Subject: Re: avant-garde and other terms In-Reply-To: <199603130201.SAA02363@ix5.ix.netcom.com> The term "Savant gardeN" comes to mind, but I'm not sure if I just made it up or read it somewhere else Peter Jaeger ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 08:17:00 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: avant-garde and other terms In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 14 Mar 1996 07:58:33 -0500 from On Thu, 14 Mar 1996 07:58:33 -0500 Peter Jaeger said: >The term "Savant gardeN" comes to mind, but I'm not sure if I just made >it up or read it somewhere else Savant gardeN ? - or... Savagen' trad'N ? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 08:34:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: let's talk about fascists, bay-bee... I probably quoted this once before... Cixous quotes I. Bachman--- "the first thing in a relationship between a man and a woman is fascism...." why are we racing to be so bold? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 08:59:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen or Peter Landers Subject: Re: 16 Oz or Alan Sondheim wrote: >Have you read the radio broadcasts? If you haven't, let me assure you >they contain some of the worst anti-semitism I've ever read. I can't read >Pound anymore; he sickens me. The artist didn't trick the fascist; the >fascist did his disgusting dirty work, did damage. > >On Wed, 13 Mar 1996, Karen or Peter Landers wrote: >> >> or read _Your Witness_, a poem by Charles Olson ... >> No, I haven't read them and I don't want to. I believe you. But how many people did he affect in a good way? Jewish or gay poets that he encouraged or recommended to editors. Doesn't it go some way toward reconciliation? Zukofsky spoke up for him, too. And, as a friend pointed out recently, shouldn't we be more upset at people like Frost who got a colleague fired for being gay? When did Ezra actually personally destroy another person's life? I have friends who have to take a lot of medecine. I try not to hold them responsible for the things they have done when ill. Peter landers@vivanet.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 09:08:35 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Perez Subject: Re: avante-garde and other terms paul, I think you should cut to the point on the subject title: Poets. Hide yourself or be Destroyed! (I think more subtitles need a good caesura for dramatic effect) and imagine the cover with giant comic drawings of Howe, Bernstein, Brauthwaite, etc. stomping through NYC tearing it apart. I would buy it in a second. In fact, make it large format and soft cover, and maybe you can trick some comic-buying teens and pre-teens into buying it (which led to my other possible title, "Poets that will corrupt your children"). James Perez jmp2p@virginia.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 09:18:41 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Perez Subject: Re: let's talk about fascists, bay-bee... I have to agree with Emily and Dove. Further, since I think it is especially pertinent to this topic... I think anyone interested in how artists are to deal with fascism should take a look at the work of the German Painter Anselm Keifer. There was a good book done for one of his exhibits (nearly a decade ago now?) with essays on his work. He is a painter trying to find out what it means for himself to be german after the Nazi period. He is dealing directly with Nazi work, mimicing the Nazi/Roman salute in full dress in a book of photos, dealing with how to accept artists that the Nazis accepted, such as Wagner and a good deal of German Literary/Cultural/Art History that was/is being looked down upon for being liked by the Nazi regime, dealing directly with the Jewish issues of the Nazi era, check out his pieces inspired by Celan's Death Fugue (anyone ever see the translation that calls it Death Tango?). Keifer's work is excellent and very intellectually and emotionally challenging (such as a painting called Shulamith (I might be wrong on the title) that is a german soldier monument painted with charred brick walls to look like a furnace). Where does the irony end? Someone gave a lecture at UVA last year and talked about Keiffer for a while (I wish I remembered who it was), which was a pleasure for me considering my interest in Keifer's work, and it surprised me when she said Keifer's work was highly praised by a large number of Jewish-American citizens. See his paintings "live" sometime at any major art museum (they are huge and beautifully painted in a vocab of dripping, scraping, throwing, brushing, pouring...pouring molten lead that is) James Perez jmp2p@virginia.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 09:55:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: Re: 16 Oz or Peter wrote: >And, as a friend pointed out recently, shouldn't we be more >upset at people like Frost who got a colleague fired for being gay? AS upset, at least. YES. >When did Ezra actually personally destroy another person's life? Well, okay, he wasn't exactly kind to Amy Lowell, and certainly sought to destroy her reputation. Whether this was because she was a woman, or fat, or a lesbian, or just a lame poet? Who knows. On the whole, it seems to me that Peter's basically right--Pound didn't seek to destroy lives so much as prevent them from happening. Those he promoted he demoted as soon as it looked like he wouldn't have as much control over them as he wanted. He *was* a pain in the butt. Pretty much bar none. More complicated (for me) is someone like Baraka--some of whose political contributions I truly admire--a major fagbasher (at least, in his work) who felt the need to abuse one already-abused group in order to empower another...as if this were the only way to accomplish his argument. And, of course, it *was* a very effective way. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Emily Lloyd emilyl@mail.erols.com "The female is a chaos, the male is a fixed point of stupidity" --Ezra Pound, in a letter to Marianne Moore ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 10:24:45 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: 16 Oz or Bravo, Peter Landers, bravo, bravo for compassion. I take psychiatric meds, too, and would not like my life's work to be judged on what I was like "before." Of course, that's easy for me to say, woman but not Jew. Gwyn McVay ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 09:26:49 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: in the public domain... well speaking of poet-characters: what y'all think about *the postman*?... i was bowled over by it... joe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 10:25:23 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Pound in the doghouse Seems pretty clear that Pound reflected and exaggerated (but not really exaggerated) in a grotesque mode, but without irony, a cultural pathology at the core of the WC (Western Culture). It wasn't a personal illness entirely, it was a recapitulation by megaphone & poetry; it's not something he can exonerate himself of by personal kindness to some of his best friends. The best thing I've read about it is "Genealogy of demons" by Robert Casillo (NWU Press, 1988), which doesn't try to read a redemptive pattern in the late verse or statements he made to Allen Ginsberg, etc. But it's not simply judgemental, either - Casillo tries to explore what happened. & speaking of Harlem Renaissance, somebody might want to compare the cultural rivalry, borrowings, mimicry, appropriations, masking, and scapegoating involved in black-white relations in US (one could argue that ALL modern popular culture in US stems from blackface minstrel shows & vaudeville) - with the age-old relations between Christianity & Judaism. Might be an interesting take on "our" Son of God. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 10:47:29 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Re[2]: avant-garde Anyone who is living and can be considered "a poet" becomes avant-guarde (or advance-guarde if you prefer) by default, by the act of continually writing in a period where continuity has been debased. Categorization is for the empire of the senseless, the bigots who couldn't care less. Even the fields of Robert Bly's masculine epiphany are avant-guarde: get used to it. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 09:50:44 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: lb.'s oz. >No, I haven't read them and I don't want to. I believe you. >But how many people did he affect in a good way? Jewish or gay poets >that he encouraged or recommended to editors. Doesn't it go some >way toward reconciliation? Zukofsky spoke up for him, too. Reconciliation, no. Good deeds don't cancel out bad, in my mind. But they are important, and it's necessary not to neglect the good, and not to neglect the bad. And unlike one post, I don't think The Pisan Cantos are the only good -- some is to be found in various Cantos, other poems, and essays, as well as in the good words & deeds for other artists. I am intrigued by the notion that some of what we positively take from Pound is inextricably linked to the negativism and hatred. Instinctively it seems as if this must be true, but I'd like to read more specifics. Guess I should read Perelman's work on this. OK. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 11:00:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: HYPE CITY thanks Tonight at POETRY CITY: Maria Damon & Walter Lew Maria Damon is the author of _The Dark End of the Street_ (UMP, 1993). She's a frequent contributor to the poetix list, and a charter member of the renga qabal. Walter Lew is the editor of _Premonitions: the Kaya Anthology of New Asian North American Poetry_ (Kaya, 1995). It's one gorgeous book. He's quite a reader. Poetry City is a borough of Teachers & Writers Collaborative, 5 Union Square West, 7th Floor, New York NY 10003. Both books will be available at the reading. If you're in New York, stop by Poetry City and say hi. ______ SPECIAL OFFER to the first five people to respond: _Selected Poems_ by Simon Pettet & _Talking Pictures_ by Simon Pettet & Rudy Burckhardt sold separately in stores for $35 available *today* from Poetry City for $30 ppd Send your street address to jdavis@panix.com "We want to get the books out there." --our founder Thanks, btw, to everyone who jumped on the Bill Luoma twofer deal. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 11:16:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: - Kim Tedrow Subject: Re: HYPE CITY thanks Kim Tedrow 8208 Houston Ct. #6 Takoma Park, MD 20912 (301)588-7156 http://members.aol.com/RoseRead/ Thanks Jordan, Kim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 11:38:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: 16 Oz or In-Reply-To: On Thu, 14 Mar 1996, Karen or Peter Landers wrote: > No, I haven't read them and I don't want to. I believe you. > But how many people did he affect in a good way? Jewish or gay poets > that he encouraged or recommended to editors. Doesn't it go some > way toward reconciliation? Zukofsky spoke up for him, too. No. Nor does this work with Heidegger. > > And, as a friend pointed out recently, shouldn't we be more > upset at people like Frost who got a colleague fired for being gay? > When did Ezra actually personally destroy another person's life? Since Pound was only broadcasting over Italy I have no idea. > I have friends who have to take a lot of medecine. I try not to > hold them responsible for the things they have done when ill. Nazism is not an illness any more than poetry. People who advocate extermination and are sane enough to be on national radio should be held responsible. Pound did damage. Alan > > Peter > landers@vivanet.com > With some new texts and image files - http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Other images at http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 10:59:05 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Bouchard Subject: Pound takes an "ing" >When did Ezra actually personally destroy another person's life? Emily's repsonse: Well, okay, he wasn't exactly kind to Amy Lowell, and certainly sought to destroy her reputation. Whether this was because she was a woman, or fat, or a lesbian, or just a lame poet? Who knows. On the whole, it seems to me that Peter's basically right--Pound didn't seek to destroy lives so much as prevent them from happening. Those he promoted he demoted as soon as it looked like he wouldn't have as much control over them as he wanted. He *was* a pain in the butt. Pretty much bar none. Emily, I don't read posts on this list for scholarship but I am wondering (again) if you can cite a few examples about Pound as Power Broker of poetry. I'm thinking, as a response, of a letter George Oppen wrote to Pound in the early 60s stating how exceptional his behavior in regard to young and/or unknown poets had been throughout his (Pound's) career. And I'm pretty sure Oppen was no big fan of Pound, as a person, at that point. As for Amy Lowell (she could have used a few lessons in professional decorum also) I am trying to think of how Pound "sought to destroy her reputation." ?? daniel_bouchard@hmco.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 11:48:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: let's talk about fascists, bay-bee... In-Reply-To: <199603141418.JAA25948@uva.pcmail.Virginia.EDU> Why is it surprising that Keifer is praised by Jews? I like Keifer as well. This isn't the issue. Look, Pound the fucker called for extermination of my people. He called for it repeatedly and publicly. I'm glad you all can forgive him. I can't. If poetry is elevated above political action, poetry is obscene. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 12:05:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: POETRY CITY 6:30 just a couple quick reminders then I'll stop abusing the list-- Poetry City events are at 6:30 pm daylight savings (or 6:45 poetry savings)-- and be sure to send responses to book offers to me (jdavis@panix.com) and not the list! (don't feel bad, Kim, it's an easy mistake to make) Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 12:09:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Slaughter Subject: Re: query: book distribution Dear Wendy Battin: This is in reply to your post (attached) re your panel at AWP in Atlanta. I don't know if my MUDLARK is relevant to your project but I would like to call it to your attention. It is refereed, copyrighted, archived and distributed, free, on the World Wide Web, by e-mail, and on disk. MUDLARK has an ISSN from the Library of Congress so, technically, it is a journal not a press, but its second (and current) issue, for example, is a chapbook, THE RAPE POEMS, by Frances Driscoll. Perhaps you'll be willing to at least have a look at MUDLARK and decide for yourself. I have tracked what you're doing with CAPA from the beginning and, of course, I know you're own poetry. In both cases, it's important work you're doing. Sincerely, William Slaughter _________________________________________ MUDLARK An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics Never in and never out of print... E-mail: mudlark@unf.edu URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark >I'll be part of a panel on electronic publishing at the AWP Convention >in Atlanta this April; I'll be doing a presentation on using the internet >to keep books in print, to distribute them despite the economic pressures >that are driving small & university presses out of bookstores, etc. >(Given all the scares about internet as the death of the book, it seems >important to turn attention to the alternate economy the net can sustain.) >I've run across a few instances of small presses and bookstores marketing >their stock on mailing lists and on the web; I'd like to know more and to >make these resources more widely available, and this convention seems >like a good start. If you know of major distributors on-line--especially >those dealing with small press books--or poetry bookstores, presses, samisdat >networks with websites or email addresses, please send them to me, and I'll >see that they're distributed as widely as I can manage. I'll get them >out at AWP, and I'll post them on the CAPA site as well. > >Many thanks, >Wendy > >---------------------------------------------------------------- >Wendy Battin >wjbat@conncoll.edu >wbattin@mit.edu > > Contemporary American Poetry Archive > http://camel.conncoll.edu/library/CAPA/capa.html >---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 09:11:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: wings & things In-Reply-To: <199603140523.AAA29582@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Naylor -- I want to read that book! While I'm waiting, is the Mackey chapter a version of your essay in _PMC_? Used that in a class a couple weeks ago, & grad. students liked it lots -- Kellog -- Only reason I haven;t been addressing you for copies is that I am briefly living near a library that actually subscribes to all those journals -- keep those notices coming in -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 12:51:35 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: PAVEMENT SAW Pavement Saw is published once a year has been said to "mix the incongruent" in way which was compared favorably to kayak in Small Press Review. Some of the contributors are ususal suspects, regulars on this list. The most recent issue is 56 pages, fleck cover, perfect bound. The featured writer is Gian Lombardo. Others include Chris Stroffolino, Jendi Reiter, Will Alexander, Charles Rittenhouse, Lizbeth Keiley, W.B Keckler, Sheila Murphy, Simon Perchik, and Virginia Aronson to name a few. One issue is $3.50 and a subscription is $6.00 for individuals. Back issues are availiable for $3. $10. subscription fee (2 issues) for libraries and institutions. Send to: Pavement Saw 7 James Street Scotia, NY 12302 Make checks payable either to Pavement Saw Press or David Baratier. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 13:28:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: in the public domain... dear joe amato-- I was very interested in seeing IL POSTINO because it portrayed a poet as a character, and the tension between the poet as marxist/populist and as "ladies man" was quite interesting. And the way N became role model for young Italian male. At first middle man to woo/seduce woman and then, of course, more important to that young man than the woman now his wife. This latter part was the weakest part of the movie for me... and the tentative Marxism (albiet culminating in heroic death).... anyway, curious what you thought of that.... Another issue: somebody raised the question of BARAKA (who interests me more than EZ) and it made me think of the whole question of discomfort with a poet's POLITICS (in the vulgar sense) and stance. I've seen Baraka speak in a very improvisatory way on political issues--and one of the things I admire about him (both in the microcosm of lectures and in the macrocosm of his whole development--the various phases he's gone through)--is his willingness to RISK saying things that may be perceived as stupid or wrongheaded. When called on it, at one of the lectures I've seen, Baraka appealed to the poets' right to THINK OUT LOUD, or to grow up in public --- A lot of the question of "poetic responsibility" for me turns on a question of genre. When we read a novel or a play, we often accept the fictions of characters. Yet, in reading poetry (especially "statement poetry") there's this desire to want to hold the poet accountable as if the speaker of the poem (or even a whole book of poems) is not to some extent a character, a fiction. Perhaps this is because one wants to identify with a poet as a person---despite the "death of the author" and all that---and this need and/or desire is not necessarily to be blamed. Yet, at the same time, it does seem to hold others up to standards of consistency we may not necessarily apply to ourselves (sorry for the use of the "royal"? "we" here)-- Aside from the politics that makes Baraka great (see for instance his two pieces in the most recent NEW AMERICAN WRITING) is the ENTHUSIASM that may be involved in what many find disturbing about him..... Aside from my belief that even if we take Baraka strictly as a public intellectual (rather than a poet) the good outweighs the bad, there is also the sense that the whole question of judging poets' on their politics does to a large extent reduce the whole issue to one of mere OPINION. I can't believe that I am alone in thinking that "I DO NOT TOTALLY AGREE WITH ANYONE" and nor do I expect people to totally agree with me. I tend to be moved by things I HATE more than things I tepidly embrace. Ashbery said something like the reason he doesn't read much vulgar political poetry is because he finds himself in too easy agreement with it. I don't TOTALLY AGREE with that either, but AT TIMES I do. Am I "taking a stance" here? Is that a value? Or is it what "they" (and you know who they are) want from us?---- And perhaps the problems people have with poet X or Y are related very much to the POLITICS OF POETIC STANCE, of the perceived need for poets to commodify themselves, and take a position that is seen as consistent in both the narrower sense of the literary world and the larger political. But such a need for consistency is as much a problem as the failure of poets to achieve it, and probably more. It boxes people in to pre- existing grids, one becomes even more of a slave to one's past than one would otherwise---even in trying to make a "clean break"...... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 12:56:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Howard Shoemaker Subject: Re: ghost titles In-Reply-To: <199603140523.AAA29582@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> from "Automatic digest processor" at Mar 14, 96 00:02:07 am An "Objectivist" number of Contempo magazine was advertised, but never appeared. Ooooh, scary. steve ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 08:07:12 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: what is poetics Re Henry Gould's quote. Is that really Todorov, or was that ghosted by Clement Greenberg, literature as distinguished from as opposed to other arts? (Eliminating concrete and visual elements components or practices from writing and verbal-textual writing ditto from the other arts -- e.g. music and painting. Really difficult for him.) In so far as "poetics" is about "making", and "medium" is not a useful means of categorisation, that position needs some heavy rethinking methinks. Todorov's "poetics" looks like being a prescriptive (policing) organisation over poetic production too. Meanwhile, it's just after dawn and the traffic is intensifying into the sonorous stinking rushhour. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 13:59:38 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: poetry center info/donations Rhode Island has nothing like Poets House in NY or other poetry resource centers for the public; it's something some of us have been thinking about for a long time. 6 yrs ago a group called the Poetry Mission was set up with this long-term goal in mind - a public resource/performance center. We concentrated for a few yrs on publishing a journal we inherited (NE Journal, now Nedge) and other things, but the goal has been there. The Mission recently reached an agreement with a branch of the Cranston Public Library - Hall Library, near Providence/Cranston line - to set up a collection/reading space in a large room there. We have access to about 100 ft of shelf space, several tables & chairs, areas for readings, and a full stage for other performances. We plan to start being open one night a week & one Saturday a month; we envision reading & talk series, informal writers groups gathering there, people looking for book & journals, etc. Considering the dearth of such a focal point around here outside of the colleges, we think it might be fairly popular. If you want to help us inaugurate this space, there are several ways you can do so. You can: 1. Donate poetry bks or journals, chapbooks 2. Send info about your journal (i.e. subscription cost, # issues, address, etc.) 3. Suggest worthwhile materials for the center & how to acquire them. 4. Other suggestions welcome! (i.e. offers to read while in area, etc.) All donors will be gratefully acknowledged & the materials will be well cared-for with the library's assistance. As the Mission currently has basically a zero budget beyond putting out Nedge, we can't afford many subscriptions, but some extra income will go in this direction. All queries or suggestions can come to me via email (Henry_Gould@brown.edu), all materials should be sent to: The Poetry Mission, PO Box 2321, Providence, RI 02906. Please include a note & return address - and if you have special requirements regarding use of materials, please query before sending! If the project for some reason does not get off the ground or folds, materials collected will be donated to a public library (unless other arrangements have been made with the donor). Thanks to all interested - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 14:41:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: Pound's mean: examples Below is taken from Steven Watson's _Strange Bedfellows: The First American Avant-Garde_. Stuff written in CAPS is me interjecting. (AT A DINNER CELEBRATING THE BRIT. PUB. OF _LES IMAGISTES_) "In a Garden" [was Lowell's] sole contribution to _Des Imagistes_. Pound suggested that her closing line, "Night, and the water, and you in your whiteness, bathing!" referred to Lowell and her vast, pale body...Pound stole out to an adjoining room and returned with a large tin bathtub on his head. He deposited it before Amy Lowell, and made a formal announcement: Les Imagistes would be succeeded by a new school of poetry, Les Nagistes, with this tub as its symbol. Perhaps Lowell, its inaugurating poet, should demonstrate her whiteness by bathing in it. THIS IS NOT SO MUCH POUND SEEKING TO "DESTROY HER REPUTATION" AS TO PUBLICLY HUMILIATE HER AND PARADE HIS POWER. HOWEVER, TWO WEEKS LATER, WHEN LOWELL SUGGESTS ANOTHER IMAGISTE ANTHOLOGY BE COMPILED... As a democratic alternative to _Des Imagistes_, Lowell suggested that each poet be given equal space in which his or her own selection of poems would appear. To ensure publication by a reputable firm, Lowell would stake the venture. She secured their [HD, Aldington, Ford, Fletcher, Flint, Lawrence's] participation and then invited Pound...He roundly rejected her proposal, informing her that poetry was not "a democratic beerhall." Pound entreated his friends not to participate. (DESTROY HER EFFORTS, INTERFERE WITH HER PROJECTS=WHAT I MEANT BY "SEEK TO DESTROY HER REP.")...he asserted ownership of the term "Imagisme," and when Lowell simply stripped the word of its Gallic affectation to make it "Imagism," he riposted that the movement would henceforth be known as "Amygism." [END WATSON] "I think that America is getting fed up on gynocracy and that it is time for a male review."--Pound to John Quin, 1915. Once Amy et al. had taken up Imagism, Pound said he had never been serious about the movement at all, and took up Vorticism, denouncing Imagist poets & poetry (inc. HD). In what I've read of Pound (as a person), seems less like he was interested in helping young poets and more like adopting them, putting his stamp on their work, and getting to hold them up claims to his own fame. "Yes, Tiffany started out right here on Star Search." It's just a feeling. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Emily Lloyd emilyl@mail.erols.com "I know that I know myself/no more than a seed curled in the dark of a winged pod/knows flourishing --R. Hass ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 15:08:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: Re: in the public domain Chris Stroffolino: thanks for that post. "Baraka appealed to the poets' right to THINK OUT LOUD, or to grow up in public." Yes; I think that might be a nice right to appeal to not only in "public," but on this list. Appealing, ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Emily Lloyd emilyl@mail.erols.com "I know that I know myself/no more than a seed curled in the dark of a winged pod/knows flourishing --R. Hass ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 14:25:34 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Perez Subject: Re: 16 Oz or Alan, not to be argumentative, but I think you are being reductive, since when is speaking on national radio a mark of sanity? Nazi-ism may not be an illness, but something like chronic depression will make someone reach out for anything, then the Nazi-ism is just another symptom of the illness. I think you're being reductive, not that I profess to know anything at all about Ezra's psychology. When I think of Ezra Pound I think of that portrait of his by Avedon. He's old and disfigured, outright grotesque, but beautiful somehow. That's how I like to think of his poetry. Along that line (and about bad tepid poetry vs. good horrible poetry) someone once told me that when a thing is ugly it repels you, but when it is grotesque its ugliness attracts you even as it is pushing away. James Perez jmp2p@virginia.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 15:22:11 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: what is poetics In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 15 Mar 1996 08:07:12 GMT+1300 from On Fri, 15 Mar 1996 08:07:12 GMT+1300 Tony Green said: >Re Henry Gould's quote. Is that really Todorov, or was that ghosted by Clement >Greenberg, >literature as distinguished from as opposed to other arts? >(Eliminating concrete and visual elements components or practices >from writing and verbal-textual writing ditto from the other arts -- e.g. music >and painting. Really difficult for him.) In so far as "poetics" is >about "making", and "medium" is not a useful means of >categorisation, that position needs some heavy rethinking methinks. I agree, Tony. It was another HG patented confu-mush post. Only sent it to highlight contrast between a previous post of mine, where I tried to describe poetics as the study of the specifically artistic qualities of poems, and what seems to be the generally accepted view of poetics, as a more broad-based study of poetry in its cultural context. And regarding New Zealand rush hour: I hope you're not reading your POETICS while driving (or herding sheep) - HGould ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 09:51:05 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: avante-garde and other terms the Naylor dilemma: if it's a matter of provocative description some striking neologism or unexpected banality might do: the poets might take offence at " X,Y and Z: Fucked up Poets of the 90's", while "X,Y and Z: Real Poets of the 90's" wd raise a question or two that might make opening the volume or buying it more likely options than passing by. " Real Cool Poets: X, Y and Z", for "cool" substitute whatever word is current..."of the 21st century" is actually more enticing than 90's"... It does not matter a damn from the point of view of sales whether the poets in quesion have been writing and publishing since 1958 or whether they really have got test-tubes going or not...or have done something they think is new....from the point of view of poetics maybe it matters. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 16:02:52 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Bouchard Subject: Pound takes a "Ding" -Returns a "Dong" Following the flap-chat from Calabria, Tony Door asked me to forward this to the list: daniel_bouchard@hmco.com ___________________ wAtt? has someone rushed to defend amy lowel? not to say the pound was not rich or anything, but wasn't the town near boston that kerouac came from named after some progenitor of hers? wasn't she the third generation of american poet? wasnt her success generated by this fact? isn't the FACT that we ALL know her name completely contradicted by the relative merit of her work? Finally, does naming a derived "movement" in poetry AMYGISM constitute "ruining" someone's career? like, if he ruined it, how come she still had one. I think asking Beckett if he was working on the ILLIAD. (even that didnt seem to ruin his career) or perhaps when he told Jackson Mac Low that he (Jackson) was NOT Jewish...I never heard of Pound actually denouncing anyone but the Stiff, Stuffy, & Well Established in poetry--perhaps this has been hidden, but he seems to have let loose on his own against anyone he didn't like. I would not be suprised to learn that there were those whom he might not have helped--there seem to be no women in his circles. perhaps in part due to his unattractiveness as a "teacher" for women poets--on this i do not know. (but would like to find out) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 16:14:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: in the public domain... did anybody go to the jim brodey reading? i'm curious for any report..... cs ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 12:40:46 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland Subject: Re: let's talk about fascists, bay-bee... Comments: To: sondheim@PANIX.COM Dear Alan, That AN is Anais Nin? Well, that's one of my problems with HM, how can you justify his support for AN? Tell me. Wystan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 13:06:25 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland Subject: Re: 16 Oz or Comments: To: emilyl@MAIL.EROLS.COM Dear Emily, Don't hate me (it'll make you sick) but learn from me. Better still lets learn together. Let's make a BAD FOLKS List. Let's see, who we got so far: Pound Frost Baraka Hemingway There are so many bad folks in the world and so much badness to learn from.More names please. Wystan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 16:43:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: let's talk about fascists, bay-bee... In-Reply-To: On Thu, 14 Mar 1996, Alan Sondheim wrote: > If poetry is elevated above political action, poetry is obscene. If poetry is related to political action, poetry is obscene. This is really the issue here, isn't it? tom ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 20:16:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: ghost titles A few years ago Viking announced an unpublished ms. of Joyce short stories -- believe they sd it was written after Ulysses, & parts of it were garbled into or swallowed whole by the Wake. This is a less clear memory-- but something abt they were based on irish fairy tales, or variations on a particular tale. The estate must have pulled it. Rod ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 20:20:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: Bad Folks List Comments: To: w.curnow@auckland.ac.nz At 01:06 PM 3/15/96 +1300, w.curnow@auckland.ac.nz wrote: >Let's make a BAD FOLKS List. >Let's see, who we got so far: > Pound > Frost > Baraka > Hemingway >There are so many bad folks in the world and so much badness to learn >from.More names please. > Wystan Joking, I hope? Subjective. My bad is not your bad (which may be the only thing we've learned re: my derrida comments). My bad is not even *my* bad all the time. I would say, in what I hope is closing, that reading someone's work is no synonym for "forgiving" them. I still believe, if that's what's being challenged, that one can (and perhaps even should try to) learn from people that offend, hate, etc. one. But the list above reminds me of "potential rapists" lists on university bathroom walls. I don't want a bad folks list any more than a capital A G avant-garde. E ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Emily Lloyd emilyl@mail.erols.com "I know that I know myself/no more than a seed curled in the dark of a winged pod/knows flourishing --R. Hass ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 20:29:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: let's talk about fascists, bay-bee... Comments: To: w.curnow@auckland.ac.nz In-Reply-To: <2CEAC9231B3@engnov1.auckland.ac.nz> I like some of her stories, short novels, and general predating of Irigaray and Kristeva... Alan On Fri, 15 Mar 1996 w.curnow@auckland.ac.nz wrote: > Dear Alan, > That AN is Anais Nin? Well, that's one of my problems with HM, > how can you justify his support for AN? Tell me. > Wystan > > With some new texts and image files - http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Other images at http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 17:26:34 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: FW: lb.'s oz. --- On Thu, 14 Mar 1996 09:50:44 -0600 Charles Alexander wrote: >>No, I haven't read them and I don't want to. I believe you. >>But how many people did he affect in a good way? Jewish or gay poets >>that he encouraged or recommended to editors. Doesn't it go some >>way toward reconciliation? Zukofsky spoke up for him, too. > >Reconciliation, no. Good deeds don't cancel out bad, in my mind. But they >are important, and it's necessary not to neglect the good, and not to >neglect the bad. And unlike one post, I don't think The Pisan Cantos are the >only good -- some is to be found in various Cantos, other poems, and essays, >as well as in the good words & deeds for other artists. I ONLY SAID THAT PERSONALLY I COULD ONLY READ THE PISAN CANTOS NEVER MADE JUDGEMENT OF ANYTHING ELSE AS GOOD OR BAD I am intrigued by >the notion that some of what we positively take from Pound is inextricably >linked to the negativism and hatred. Instinctively it seems as if this must >be true, but I'd like to read more specifics. Guess I should read Perelman's >work on this. OK. > -----------------End of Original Message----------------- ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.14.96 5:26:34 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 17:57:59 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels i am a jew. if it weren't for WWII, i wld have a huge family in rumania and the ukraine. my people were beaten, tortured, raped and gassed by corporal hitler and his idiot assassins. i grew up in a housing project in nyc where i was beaten, tortured, stolen from and constantly humiliated by blacks and latinos. when i was 13 a black wino raped me. i will never forgive what was done to my extinct european relatives or to me when i was a boy, and i have trouble with the hurt, yet one of my favorite poets is steven jonas, a gay black man. martin heidegger is important to me. so is the music of charles mingus and villa-lobos, both notorious assholes. one of the first thing we notice abt fascists is their inability to accept anybody who looks, acts, thinks differently. yeah, pound was an asshole and a fascist. he was also a great poet. and he furthered, made the careers of several poets, no matter his motives. that's something we can either deal with or ignore. bestiality resides in the human heart. none of us are sheltered from it, all of us are capable of it. that's another thing we can either deal with or ignore. human beings are terribly complicated; our motives usually suck, especially when we jump up and down and yell abt how good our motives are. the finger points both ways. later ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.14.96 5:57:59 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 21:41:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: Bad Folks List >I don't want a bad >folks list any more than a capital A G avant-garde. E hell, sometimes i don't even want capital e's... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 18:47:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: william elliott vidaver Subject: Question re: Schwitters studies Does anyone know of an electronic mailing list (or association) that is dedicated to any extent to discussions of the abstract collage work of Kurt Schwitters and/or Hannah Hoech, and/or their contemporary inheritors? Any leads would be helpful, Aaron Vidaver c/o wvidaver@direct.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 22:16:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: 16 Oz or In-Reply-To: <199603141925.OAA13049@uva.pcmail.Virginia.EDU> I want to bow out of this discussion. But I must say I have chronic depression and it does not "make me reach out for anything." And if Nazism is the symptom, pray, what is the cure? Yes, I read Pound; I wouldn't deny myself that. I read Celine. I don't have bad boys and good boys. But I read through, not around, Nazism, just as I have to have an informed reading of Heidegger say for my own work. I would be careful about all this excusing fascism. Perhaps all fascists in Germany and Italy were chronically depressed? Alan On Thu, 14 Mar 1996, James Perez wrote: > Alan, > > not to be argumentative, but I think you are being reductive, since when is > speaking on national radio a mark of sanity? > > Nazi-ism may not be an illness, but something like chronic depression will > make someone reach out for anything, then the Nazi-ism is just another > symptom of the illness. I think you're being reductive, not that I profess > to know anything at all about Ezra's psychology. > > When I think of Ezra Pound I think of that portrait of his by Avedon. He's > old and disfigured, outright grotesque, but beautiful somehow. That's how I > like to think of his poetry. Along that line (and about bad tepid poetry vs. > good horrible poetry) someone once told me that when a thing is ugly it > repels you, but when it is grotesque its ugliness attracts you even as it is > pushing away. > > James Perez > jmp2p@virginia.edu > With some new texts and image files - http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Other images at http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 22:28:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carla Billitteri Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Re: let's talk about fascists, bay-bee... Worth reading in this context is Charles Olson's journals kept while visiting Pound in custody, published in _Charles Olson & Ezra Pound: An Encounter at St. Elizabeth's_, edited by Catherine Seelye. Olson had quit his government job in the wake of F.D.R.'s death and the sellout (as he saw it) of the progressive wing of the Democratic party by Truman. (Much of Olson's work had involved coordinating activities with immigrant organizations.) He was really just starting as a poet, and though _Call Me Ishmael_ was written, he hadn't yet secured a publisher. Olson was fascinated by the Cantos and had arranged to cover the trial for Partisan Review. The issues raised here on the list more or less as a matter of intellectual stance take on a palpable reality in Olson's journals, enthrallment and disgust hopelessly tangled. Should Olson have washed his hands of Pound sooner than he did? (Pound credited Olson's small kindnesses at this time with saving his life.) What exactly did he learn by sitting at Pound's feet? Condemnation and forgiveness are two ends of a very long continuum of possible judgments. Here are two interesting excerpts: From 15 January 1946: . . . was it in here that he asked, does anyone know Westbrook Pegler? I indicated I didn't, and must have froze more than I ever have with him. He then called him "the best man they've got." And with that, for the first time, the full shock of what a fascist s.o.b. Pound is caught up with me. I guess I had to feel it on my own America before I could have a realization. For Pegler I have traveled through and understood. Pound's praise of him reveals his utter incomprehension of what is going on, and what has happened to himself. Just on a technical level, that such an ear as Pound's could permit himself to praise Pegler! What a collapse. I wondered then how long more I can hold out my hand to him as a poet and a man. I suppose I shall tell him one day I am the son of immigrants, this influx of second class citizens whom Pegler and Pound think has made impure their Yankee America of pioneers--and Biddles. That my father was killed fighting for the right of labor men to organize in unions. That decadent democracy gave me the chance to grope out of the American city into some understanding of what life is, and how to peg a smart fascist s.o.b. like Pegler--and Ezra Pound. From 24 January 1946: He was quiet for a minute, working his forehead, talking down and away toward the window to his right and my left: "There was a Jew, in London, Obermeyer, a doctor of comparative . . . . . of the endocrines, and I used to ask him what is the effect of circumcision. That's the question that gets them sore," and he begins to be impish as hell, "that sends them right up the pole. Try it, don't take my word for it, try it." And then, with a pitiful seriousness, turning directly toward me and says: "It must do something, after all these years and years, where the most sensitive nerves in the body are, rubbing them off, over and over again." ((It was fantastic, again the fascist bastard, the same god damned kind of medical nonsense Hitler and the gang used with the same seriousness, the same sick conviction.)) It was so cockeyed for the moment it was funny actually, absurd, and I was carried along by the swearing, swift, slashing creature. I record it, but here as elsewhere, it is impossible to give a true impression. For at any given point, always, there is the presence of the seriousness of the man. Even in his sickest and most evil moments. He is always a man at work, examinging, examining. Here, for example, on the one hand he is attacking K as a Jew, when the truth is K is making the mistakes of any young man, and Pound is god damned well lucky it is K and not the monster Griffin who is questioning him, is in charge. I could not help feeling during this whole line of Pound's, how it was precisely the Jews around him here and in the DDC who gave him some warmth and help, how it was through Tiny and K that I had got drawers issued to him, how it was K who at least had the curiosity to read his verse, and that K, in Chicago, when the bookstores said, they wouldn't carry the books of a fascist, objected and damn well told him that was the same as burning books, and plain out and out fascist. On top of that it was Rahv, another Jew, who had accepted my Yeats thing on EP, when all the blessed Christian editors took it as offering Pound an out, an intellectual excuse. **** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 22:16:07 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Wood Subject: Re: poetry center info/donations Henry, I'll be sending materials in response to your querry on the Poetics group. You probably don't recognize my name, since I've been mostly lurking. Anyway, enough of that. As a bug to chew on your mind, how about setting up some sort of resource center for poetry resource centers. Put another way, I and Joseph Zitt are in the first stages of developing a poetry organization to act as a resource center/event organizer/whatever in N. Texas. And there seems precious little available out there on how to make that happen: what are the pitfalls, the shortcuts, the wise moves and foolish ones... thanks, Tim Wood in space no one can hear you scream in Dallas no one cares... ______________________________________________________________________________ Check out the Voices new poetry website at http://www.connect.net/twood/ the Word, Dallas' monthly arts guide: http://www/connect.net/twood/word.html poetry & video poetry ---- graphic design & database development ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 20:05:51 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: 16 Oz or alan --- i've bowed out also. let he who is w/o sin ... ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.14.96 8:05:51 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 13:00:54 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: Reedy / plus Sound & Language books (special offer) Ric mentioned Carlyle - I published a chapbook of hers called 'Sculpted In This World' in 1979 under my old Bluff Books imprint - 18 poems - still have some copies if there's interest. Also available from Sound & Language: 'stranger' - cris cheek (44pp, one extended piece) a brief extract: Film keeps jumping in Her frame. And on an old Hum Teeming with cows a blood puddle yoked to a sky. The Earth - burying A small boy beating a Squealing Pig with a red hot stick . . One at one time, bird lures Flit across corn, of Ripening Chrome. Smudging movements, to irrigate Fracture. and 'Civic Crime' - Allen Fisher (29pp - 6 poems from 'gravity as a consequence of shape'): (from 'Cakewalk') The image of a woman frottaged by the Burglar to the wall shifts with his attention reads a bicontinuous sponge with surfactant interfaces. His cleansing gaze as he sees it rapidly fluctuates the curvature of her shapes. They begin to leave the wall and spatter the footpath. The Informer's report confirms they are metallic balls of crystalline liquids sandwiched in saliva honeycombs and dynamically disordered into droplets disturb the gravel. Oh what a wonderful world. . . . and 'Sore Models' - Miles Champion (32pp sequence of 28 poems): what place does consiousness have in a world of molecules for which God or Nature designed the solid table of common sense? a coral reef has a history thousands of small mutations finding their niches a cosmic ray scrambles the atoms of secularisation and late capitalism an obsessional kink in these brains left by traumatic constellations of causal forces and producing talk (27/12/94) and 'TM 4' - Ulli Freer (40pp - 4 poems): a tight never found myself in a pit full of many bodies some were moving between the bushes woes magpies flutter reflections damage limitation line war low sound merges thresholds each breath stirs inversion who eats propaganda raw garden green in your heart on saturday me awn saturday and magpie circles the head Offer is to Poetics list subscribers at: all five books (Carlyle Reedy / cris cheek / Allen Fisher / Miles Champion / Ulli Freer) 15 dollars (cash) 10 pounds sterling (money order or sterling cheque) or swap for other chapbooks Offer runs from April 1st (but it's not an April Fools gag - just that's the date of the Ulli Freer publication to make this offer possible). Separate titles can be bought at 5 dollars or 2 pounds sterling or equivalent. love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 22:04:39 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Filkins Subject: Re: Bad Folks List Hey i once broke a dog's neck and i write pomes, do you think i can get on the bad poets list? Does anyone know if this will help my career? Am i left out cuz i haven't published racist polemics? Should i work some up right quick? signed, poor misunderstood bastard looking for notoriety. _______________________________ In the undergrowth There dwells a Bloath Who feeds upon poets and tea. Luckily, I know this about him While he knows almost nothing of me! - Shel Silverstein ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 21:11:26 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Thomas A Clarke Good to see Thom turning up again here - he's certainly worth tracking dow= n. =46or those really keen to dig you might look into two other poets close to him early on. Namely Charles Verey and Neil Mills to whom he dedicated his Jargon book 'some particulars' in 1970. Both are almost forgotten now, although both produced (to my mind) very interesting work. Certainly John Wilkinson has acknowledged the early influence of Verey as a teacher. A nexus of Ian Hamilton Finlay meeting Jonathon Williams and Dom Sylvester Houedard? Here are a couple of pieces by Neil Mills: (they're hard to give well in this space as he uses handwriting and spaciality extensively - so I've had to translate a lot of 'peritext' to represent it; some of his neo-signs aren't on the keyboard at all but I've deliberately intended that different systems in this space will be rendered differently for each user - this one's from a 1969 booklet called '12 LOGOTRICKADES - TEXTBOOK' terrific stuff - and btw i've proofread these, no errors as far as i can tell. Curiosity of the week has got to be the prescient 'pog' at the end here, for those who know this kiddie craze) 14. WOODBLOOD .prannies .?nias .witlap .aucholy !ebe - ebe .puselech .thich =A7steamen .spargines .gulc @dudphoe .phalcious *parospect %titip .villocks inpee@aggrimes ^soud-rinal =99espher 67 - inorize - intasch bra-austive + .verp & pog (the next is from 'Explanation Poems!' in 1970 - intended very much for performance; strangely prefiguring Maggie O'Sullivan's work?) STONESWANE ! EARTHSHIRE ! STAGAGAGONY ! toadplant & foestrade TEMTARNISTIME ! BRUUU ! lovehewn & seedslow / mangrowth dreambraided / saintselect ! SEASWAX! DRUMBOUND 1 VIVEMAXIMUS MINDFLESHED 1 selfpriested & bellyzest ! quaaaaarm ! swadewaters slateshelved & blackdeep MANBROODS INDAGGERED razorstark ! nervesqualid ! rooftight ! caregave & painfucked / TIMESWING IMEMERGES GINGERMAN LIFESUCKLED & NORTHFAMED ! DOOMFUNCT NEVERGAIN ! cuntsmead & noonblonde & harrierlord ! kingfingers ! lupinsbleed ! jaggedbones ! FLINTSUCKERS ! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 00:59:31 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: Thomas A Clarke cris --- tell me more abt verey. the mills stuff looks fantastic --- 1969-70 you say? goes to show you. later ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.15.96 12:59:31 am q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 11:23:16 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R I Caddel Subject: in for a pound "Every anti-semitism, anti-niggerism, anti-moorism, that I can recall in history was base, had its foundation in the meanest kind of envy and in greed. It makes me sick to see you covering yourself with that filth. It is not an arguable question, has not been arguable for at least nineteen centuries... it is hard to see how you are going to stop the rot of your mind and heart without a pretty thoroughgoing repudiation of what you have spent a lot of work on." - Basil Bunting to Pound, 1938. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 05:34:58 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Thomas A Clarke Cris, Thanks so much for posting the work by Neil Mills. Marvelous. I'll have to try and find his books in libraries here, there, or somewhere. charles ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 08:11:42 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: poetry center info/donations In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 14 Mar 1996 22:16:07 -0600 from Thank you, Tim - that's great! I HOPE OTHERS FOLLOW SUIT ON THIS LIST - I know there are a lot of publishers, manic book collectors, & poets who'd like their stuff read out there. One of the things we'll do to start with is make a big add-on poster roll call of all the people who donate materials. The Mission will send you something in exchange if you're taking books now. Good idea about gathering info on how to set one up, though there must be endless different ways. I bet somebody could do a good oral history project on it, such places probably go back farther than we think. Lee Briccetti at Poets House in NY has always been friendly & helpful, they seem to have done pretty well & might have some ideas. They have gotten pretty good financial backing, it seems. Beyond Baroque has been around for a long time out in LA(?) though I don't know much about them. We shall see how working with a library is. For a long time we had our sights set on downtown Providence, closer to the (mini) artist & theater scene; plus there's a pretty active multi-arts punky funky dada thing going downtown called AS 220. But the logistics of renting space & protecting materials made starting in a library more feasible. Plus it sort of happened by chance. Edwin Honig & I discovered about 2000 copies of poetry & fiction books he had published in the late 70s - & subsequently turned over the operation to another publisher - sitting in a basement, still in good condition. We arranged with this library to have sets of 25 titles each distributed free to public libraries in the state & that formed the connection for us with this branch library. If other states are like RI, branch public libraries are one way to move some books (if you're not looking to sell!). Here they have a pretty efficient delivery network covering the whole (humoungous) state. Besides logistics, we liked the idea of connecting quiet reading, research, study & conversation with possibilities for performance. Cafes & bars are some scene, but I think poetry worth its salt has to be attended to, and then it takes you far out of the drab or homely performance space, whatever it may be, into its own reality. Tim, thanks again. For people still mulling this over, we would be very grateful for your extra poetry books, recent back issues of little mags, etc. Please email me at Henry_Gould@brown.edu, or write to me at The Poetry Mission, POB 2321, Providence, RI 02906 if you have any questions about what to send, how it will be handled, etc. All materials can be sent to the same address. Thanks - HG ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 09:24:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: 16 Oz or In-Reply-To: from "Alan Sondheim" at Mar 14, 96 10:16:54 pm > > I want to bow out of this discussion. But I must say I have chronic > depression and it does not "make me reach out for anything." And if > Nazism is the symptom, pray, what is the cure? > > Yes, I read Pound; I wouldn't deny myself that. I read Celine. I don't > have bad boys and good boys. But I read through, not around, Nazism, just > as I have to have an informed reading of Heidegger say for my own work. > > I would be careful about all this excusing fascism. Perhaps all fascists > in Germany and Italy were chronically depressed? > > Alan Not to try and keep you in this, Alan, but one parting observation-- you're right, neither illness nor depression seem very relevant here. The way Robin Blaser taught Pound (it was him I first read Pound with 30 years ago) was as symptomatic of the dis-ease of our deeply troubled times that drives so many lively minds, in their turn towards "utopian" remedies to our historical malaise, to become inhuman--Blake's Druids. Where "to build the city of Dioce whose terraces are the colour of stars" gets you. And where not building it gets you. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 09:55:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan A Levin Subject: Re: in for a pound In-Reply-To: Someone referred earlier to Charles Bernstein's essay on Pound in A Poetics, and I thought it worth quoting two lines at this point: "When Pound the great artist is excused for his politics, fascism has won. When Pound's politics are used to categorically discredit the compositional methods of his poetry, fascism has won" (p. 126). Nicely put. It's extraordinary how utterly complicitous Pound can make us feel. The problem with Pound is that he's such a magnificent reader: he's a dream student, going out and digging things up and then making them his, swinging them into his orbit, setting them in motion in new and provocative ways. This, I take it, is what Bernstein means by the compositional method (it's also, I think, a reading method: which is where Kathryne Lindberg's terrific Reading Pound Reading: Modernism After Nietzsche converges with a postmodern, Language-ish Pound). Being a good reader, being a magnificent reader, and being a genuine revolutionary of poetic form, has nothing at all to do with being good. It makes you wonder what it is we have to teach, exactly: sentimental cliches about fellow feeling and peace? (We are the world and the like.) Pound, I think, is a tremendous challenge. All I know about him, for myself, is that it's better to face such a challenge than to turn from it, to appreciate its many-sidedness, good and ill. How could anyone so smart, so talented, so full of lively intelligence, be so stupid, so simple-minded, so inhuman? No answer required. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 09:56:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen or Peter Landers Subject: Re: 16 Oz or (bow outs) Alan, I suspect you will never really bow out, this runs too deep. I have similar problems with Edmund Spenser, so I understand your emotion. There is also a lot of gaybashing and racism in other work by modernists. Edward Dorn, for instance, even though he denies it, upset my sense of justice, making Slinger seem like macho psuedo-intellectual rambling. It is true that "anyone can use logic to justify his emotions" (Twain). I realize my perspective is always colored by feelings. It's easier to villify poets who write poorly. Modernism didn't have a Byron to write pastiches and lampoons. Maybe it would have helped. Another reason this is a problem, for others probably as much as me, is because I want to draw a historical lineage. It's naive, I know, but the line from my favorite poets back to Whitman goes through Pound. If I look at it: Whitman - Pound - Zukofsky - Olson - (here it explodes into various Black Mountain and L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E people), I can see where the weakest link is in the chain. It is Pound. Compare any part of the Cantos to any part of "A" or Maximus, it really pales in comparison. And I don't know but it seems "A" was started before the Cantos and would have existed without the Cantos, however it was EP who told Poetry magazine to look into LZ, then LZ did the "Objectivism" issue and brought in many on his coattails. And there are certain techniques (indentation, repitition, lingering on the sound of a word from another language, imbuing words with stipulated meaning) that are forceful and effective. These techniques are also used by other prop- agandists, of course. And neo-beat neo-poetry has been airing a lot on ads for beer and jeans lately. Ad writers and speechwriters probably take great pride in their skill ... and when I make money as a tech writer I pull in my esthetic of simplicity. (a tangent, sorry) The lineage I draw includes Pound. This does not mean that I condone him. He was sick, he was hospitalized for 20 years, he was punished. His karma includes this thread, which has been running for 50 years and will continue. Frankly, I wish LZ had done something to upset people enough to talk about him to the same degree. Each time I see a young poet discover LZ and ask "how come nobody ever mentions this, it's awesome" I realize that the adage continues to hold: infamy is better than no fame at all. Two more points (not directed at Alan in particular): Never say let's *not* talk about some poet on poetics. We'll end up with three weeks of that poet above all others. Never say _such-and-such_ is a bad word, for the same reason. That said, let's *not* talk about Zukofsky; "objectivism" is a bad word. :) peace (I can't even resist breaking my own rules!), Peter Landers landers@vivanet.com Alan, I want to give you a hug! I *know* where you're coming from. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 09:54:49 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: the postman... (ok, don't read this if you ain't seen the film) chris s., seems to me in that last post of yours---which i found really useful & provocative---you've suggested reasons for liking *il postino* so thoroughly (and i'm thinking out loud): that the young man becomes absorbed with neruda in part b/c he mistakes the poet(ic) for the person(al), and that neruda becomes absorbed with the young man in part b/c he mistakes the person(al) for the body politic(al)... neruda/poetry for the young man is initially merely a means to making love, and the young man for neruda is initially merely a political gesture to reach (another) 'ordinary' man (like the miner he mentions)... what makes the film so intriguing for me is how the personal gradually intrudes upon this reductive poet=person or person=political formula... in the scene where the young man attempts to rationalize neruda's abandoning him, what's really happening as i see it is that he's finally taking responsibility for his actions... i mean, it's clear he *knows* he's rationalizing at one level, but on another this is necessary, vital to his self-identity... ergo he forges a poetry of the island's sounds---a found poetry---a poetry of the ordinary that constitutes a gift in exchange NOT for the gift that neruda has given (and taken away)---guidance---but in exchange for neruda's friendship... in a sense, the young man is actually *befriending* neruda as an equal... if the social action that precipitates the young man's death is part poetry reading and part coming to age, it is also a public act of friendship (hence his poem's title has neruda's name in it) ... but what really makes the film for me is its conclusion... as i read this emotional sequence, neruda is struck with the recognition that poetry constitutes neither pure political (-marxist) statement, nor pure aesthetic achievement (we never get to see the young man's poem)... in the final few moments, it seems to me (and with due regard for the lines from neruda with which the film concludes) poetry is understood as part of a larger social context that brings with it certain responsibilities... and neruda understands that he's reneged on his responsibility---not to politics or to poetry, but to the young man, the person who's implicated in both... the insight would seem to be that, however personal or political, poetry per se matters less than the person who writes it or reads it... and a thing more: that poetry can represent as much an avoidance of our responsibility in this regard as a means of addressing same... and for neruda to realize this---again?---as an older man--- well, i found it astonishing, and astonishingly rendered... sorry for going on some, but that's a rough approximation of the way i saw the flick... joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 09:18:46 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerry Rothenberg Subject: Re: Pound takes a "Ding" -Returns a "Dong" Somewhere along the line of the deja vu Pound discussions comes the statement "there seem to be no women in his circles" as against his extraordinary elevation of the young H.D. as the exemplary Imagist poet, his promotion of the work of Moore and Mina Loy very early along -- however anyone might want to explain that away. It is interesting to consider too how the most telling impact of his work -- the most vital influence -- was precisely on poets who politically, morally, might have been at the greatest distance from it. I mean particulary in my generation and beyond. I take it that this is Pound's legacy also -- in the strange way that these things work. Jerome Rothenberg ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 12:30:44 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Alan Golding Subject: West coast trip Associate Professor of English, U. of Louisville Phone: (502)-852-5918; e-mail: acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu I'll be in San Diego the evening of Th. March 28, and either there or LA the evening of Fri. March 29. Anyone know of readings / performances / other interesting stuff going on either place on those dates? Alan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 12:34:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: ghost titles In-Reply-To: <960314201627_351491374@mail02.mail.aol.com> Don't know if these would count, but I recall seeing Thomas Pynchon's VINELAND listed in a prepublication *Books in Print* as *Vineland, Volume 1." And wasn't Pynchon supposed to be writing a Civil War novel? Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 684-6277 There is some excitement in one corner, but most of the ghosts are merely shaking their heads. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 12:33:03 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: 16 Oz or (bow outs) From a post from Karen or Peter Land: Frankly, I wish LZ had done something to upset people enough to talk about him to the same degree. Each time I see a young poet discover LZ and ask "how come nobody ever mentions this, it's awesome" I realize that the adage continues to hold: infamy is better than no fame at all. I'm not at all certain about this. Sometimes I think it's the hateful work which, in part, comes out of the desire for fame, notoriety, etc. Has being famous helped anyone's work? Would it have made LZ a more interesting poet? Has it made Michael Jackson a better songwriter/performer? Has it helped Bob Dylan? True, it does seem necessary to get noticed, and I think of some of the finest work of our moment being done by people who aren't all that good at getting noticed, such as Bev Dahlen, Mei-mei Berssenbrugge, and M. Nourbese Philip (thanks to Paul Naylor for suggesting this last writer). And I would like them to have more attention, but I'm also concerned that having a lot of fame/notoriety might not help their work at all. I don't mean I want writers to be unnoticed, just that fame takes a price probably at least equal to what it gives. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 13:08:06 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Machlin Subject: New Reading Series at Segue The Segue Foundation will host the following readings/events at its Segue Perfo rmance Space located at 303 E. 8th Street, NY, NY (bet. aves B&C)212/674-0199 THURSDAY, March 21, 7:30 Joe Elliot/Barbara Henning SATURDAY, March 30, 10ish New York City Poetry Talks Book Party and Social (hosted by Rob Fitterman) FRIDAY, April 12, 7:30 Jeff Prant's "Slide Show of America"/Tim Davis "Poems ab out Photographs" Three Weeks of New Fictives /THURSDAYS, 7:30 4/18 Lauren Sanders/Angela Himsel; 4/25 Linda Solomon/Leslie Daniels; 5/2 Eliss a Schappell/Susan Sherman TUESDAY, May 7th,7:30 LIVE FROM THE WEST COAST! Dodie Bellamy/Kevin Killian THURSDAY, May 9th,7:30 Segue Sponsored Event at Hebrew Union College-Brookdale Center 1 West 4th Street(near W.Bway)Rob Fitterman/Kim Rosenfield/Hugh Seidman All events Free|| For more info. mail me at this address or at 212/674-0199 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 12:50:55 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: battling the other Re; Goulds comments on the Harlem Ren. and CS on Baraka I take it that these issues aren't important enough to be dealt with on this list, that people are too intent on defining themselves, others and the like. Our passion for categorization, life neatly sectioned into graspable sanctions, has led to an unforeseen paradoxical distress; confusion, a breakdown of meaning into THAT WHICH CAN ONLY BE DEFINEC. The aim has become to reduse all writers to the compulsive, bloodless dimensions of a moniker or an empty sign (which ever fits your terminology better). The proper name is merely artifice. Baraka has indirectly given many their freedom through his audacity to say that which needs to be said. Most of the writers avoided in the academe', oh say Kenneth Patchen as another particular, are refused status because the force of the WORD as a power of revolution, one which builds and destroys countries, has been forgotten or not accepted as an important aspect and function of writing. While the academy of the future might have been opening its doors at that time, the door was one of singular speech variety: one that didn't offend the american sense of progress limited to the social arena, one which was divested of overarching human concerns such as poverty, violence, or slums for the sole sake of retaining the cloud of statistical safety. David Baratier As the inner fails, people run desperately to the post-office. -Thoreau ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 13:42:57 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Machlin Subject: Additional Readings at Segue Sorry folks, my list of Segue Performance Space Readings got too big for my scr reen. Here are those additions: these all on Thursday at 7:30 p.m. at 303 E. 8t h Street between Avenues B&C. Refreshments. All free except BIG ALLIS event. THURSDAY, May 16th, 7:30 p.m. Bill Luoma/Deirdre Kovac THURSDAY, May 23rd, 7:30 p.m. Blockbuster Reading to celebrate BIG ALLIS # 7 (Modest Contribution) Release Party Reading Hosted by Melanie Neilson: featuring Bruce Andrews, Marti ne Bellen, Abigail Child, Ulla Dydo, Rob Fitterman, Elizabeth Fodaski, Deirdre Kovac, Jena Osman, Joan Retallack, Kim Rosenfield, Juliana Spahr &Hannah Weiner THURSDAY, June 6th, 7:30 p.m. Special Gay Pride Week Presentation Mark McBeth - Lecture: THE QUEENS' ENGLISH: The Forms and Function of Gaylect With New Video Work and Special Guest t.b.a. Thursday, June 13th, 7:30 p.m. Sharon Lattig/Krysia Jopek ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 16:14:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Watts Subject: Action Derrida (et al) francaise Guyzies, this lookt interesting in light of the recent discussion around Derrida: Forwarded message: > From owner-english-dept Fri Mar 15 13:42 > >>>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 16:22:01 -0600 (CST) > >>>From: anderson kevin > >>>Subject: French Intellectuals and Political Engagement > >>>Sender: owner-psn@csf.colorado.edu > >>>To: PROGRESSIVE SOCIOLOGISTS NETWORK > >>>Reply-to: tk0kxa1@corn.cso.niu.edu > >>>MIME-version: 1.0 > >>>Precedence: bulk > >>>X-To: progressive sociologists > >>> > >>>The following commentary on "French Intellectuals and Political > >>>Engagement" by Kevin Anderson, Department of Sociology, Northern > >>>Illinois University, DeKalb, IL 60115, was broadcast on KPFK-FM > >>>(Pacifica Radio, Los Angeles) on Febuary 12, 1996: > >>> > >>> At a time when French thought - from deconstruction to post- > >>>structuralism to difference feminism - continues strongly to > >>>influence radical thought in the U. S., especially in academic circles, > >>>there is a curious omission in much of the U. S. reception of these > >>>French thinkers. Here in the U. S., the work of these thinkers is > >>>often presented as if it were cut off from the social and political > >>>engagement which marked earlier generations of French > >>>intellectuals. > >>> Such a reception is distorted, as can be seen by the intense > >>>involvement of French intellectuals in a number of current political > >>>issues, including, most recently, the massive anti-austerity strikes > >>>of last December, which at their peak brought over 2 million > >>>disaffected workers and students onto the streets of Paris and other > >>>cities. The strikers forced the conservative Chirac-Juppe > >>>government to withdraw most of a series of budget cuts which > >>>would have drastically lowered the standard of living of public > >>>employees. While the December strikes were reported at least > >>>sporadically by the American mass media, the involvement of > >>>leading French intellectuals in the strike has been passed over in > >>>silence. > >>> At the beginning of the labor protests, a few progressive > >>>intellectuals criticized the strikers and tacitly supported the > >>>austerity plan. These included the sociologist Alain Touraine, who > >>>called the government measures "courageous", the philosopher and > >>>human rights activist Bernard-Henri Levy, who termed the strikers a > >>>privileged special interest group, and the editorial board of the left > >>>of center Catholic journal Esprit. > >>> These efforts to distance progressive intellectuals from the > >>>workers met with a furious reaction from hundreds of other well- > >>>known intellectuals of the left. By December 4, over 500 leading > >>>intellectuals, including the sociologist Pierre Bourdieu, a professor > >>>at the prestigious Coll=E8ge de France, where luminaries such as > >>>Maurice Merleau-Ponty and Michel Foucault once held professorships, > >>>had organized an "Appeal to Intellectuals in Support of the Strikers." > >>>The intellectuals' appeal spoke of "our responsibility to affirm > >>>publicly our solidarity with ...this movement, which has nothing to > >>>do with the defense of special interests and still less that of > >>>privileges. In fighting for their social rights, [the appeal continued], > >>>the strikers are fighting for equal rights for all: women and men, > >>>young and old, unemployed and employed, public employees and those > >>>working in the private sector, immigrants and French men and > >>>women." Among the other signers of the appeal were the > >>>deconstructionist philosopher Jacques Derrida, Regis Debray, the > >>>companion of Che Guevara in Bolivia during the 1960s, the feminist > >>>philosopher Christine Delphy, the Trotsky biographer Pierre Broue, > >>>the Marxist theorist Michael L=F6wy, and the historian Pierre Vidal- > >>>Naquet. > >>> Pierre Bourdieu also addressed a large meeting of workers on > >>>the evening of December 12, following the demonstrations of over 2 > >>>million. "This crisis is a historic chance," Bourdieu said, "for France > >>>and for all those who refuse the new choice given to us: free market > >>>liberalism or barbarism." He castigated experts who, "using the > >>>authority of science, especially economics," tell us that "they know > >>>what is best for people, even when it goes against the popular will." > >>>Today's economic and social problems, Bourdieu concluded, "are too > >>>important to be left to technocrats." In France, a country where the > >>>opinions of intellectuals carry greater weight than in the U. S., > >>>Bourdieu's speech was reported on the front page of the country's > >>>leading newspaper, Le Monde. > >>> This "return" by French intellectuals to political engagement > >>>has been building all through the 1990s. Over the last few years, a > >>>number of leading intellectuals have spoken out forcefully against > >>>the genocide in Bosnia, and against a series of draconian and racist > >>>anti-immigration laws passed by the French government. > >>> The philosopher Jacques Derrida is a good example of this > >>>engagement in the 1990s. In the last few years, Derrida has > >>>(1)strongly supported the Bosnian cause, (2)campaigned on behalf of > >>>the feminist writer Taslima Nasreen, still under a death sentence by > >>>Islamic clerics in her native Bangladesh, (3)spoken out against > >>>racism in France and abroad. With regard to racism, of particular > >>>note was Derrida's lengthy August 1995 article, carried on page one > >>>of Le Monde, on behalf of African-American writer Mumia Abu- > >>>Jamal, who still faces a death sentence in Philadelphia. Derrida > >>>lashed out at the State of Pennsylvania "for wanting to offer more > >>>'Black blood' in a racist frenzy, and this in a state which dares to > >>>boast of being the place where the U. S. Constitution was written, a > >>>Constitution whose letter and spirit it violates daily." In his 1993 > >>>book, Specters of Marx, Derrida also pointed to the importance of > >>>rereading Marx today in order to understand and act upon the > >>>cultural, economic, and social crisis. Something is definitely > >>>stirring today among French workers and intellectuals, something of > >>>which we need to be more aware. > >>> > >> > >>------------------------------- > >>James G. Ennis > >>Sociology, Tufts University > >>Medford, MA 02155 USA > >> > >>617 628 5000 x2473 > >>fax: 617 627 3032 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 01:02:24 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: Thomas A Clarke / Charles Verey / Neil Mills et al >tell me more abt verey. well i don't know too much myself. He was an art teacher who was a member of the Gloucestershire Group aka the Gloucestershire Ode Construction Company, centred around Dom Sylvester Houedard. He's worth a prolonged diversion here. Some readers here may know of Dom, a remarkable figure who lived at Prinknash Abbey in Gloucester and went awol with his typewriter and his sexualities every now and again and again. Perhaps most outlived (at present - there's a huge reclamation project under way spearheaded by Bob Cobbing and Peter Manson of the excellent 'Object Permanence') by his simplified translation of the Basho haiku as 'frog pond plop'. Many will recognise a fine bp nicol running gag in that one. Dom Dylvester was a remarkably erudite man with rangey understanding of poetries, particularly those with sonic and spatial concerns. His own typewriter poems are quite extraordinary and I'm no way going to attempt to place one of them here. I simply recommend that you track them down. He prolifically translated and mis-translated, in particular from the Chinese. He archived assiduously. Charles Verey edited the best collection I know of (ceolfrith 15) dedicated to his work from which 2 poems: streets go BOTH crazy ways at once. if this hp soul were a portable id take it ev rywhere beaches choir buses bluecinemas and chap termeetings cafes innerspace & play it full blast the second is dated 1963 this poem all it represents what ? ______________________________ this transvestite poem parading about in somebody else's prose ________________________________________________________________ my mind transparent this between here. So that's a mere taste of Dom. Verey ran a small press called South Street. Neil Mills and Thomas A Clark were both also members of this Gloucestershire network. The poet John Wilkinson acknowledges this as his start-off patch in the early seventies. Thomas A Clark edited a little mag call 'bo-heem-e-um' and its no.3. january 1968 edition was a Charles Verey (rare as hens' teeth) special. Much of his work is so spatially set (often angled) as to be no use in thise space. It's work that unsettles me by dint of a sentimental undertow within a seeming arcane stream. But i'll post a couple of more robust bits - (this is from a booklet 'some soundings' of 1970) i can only exerpt what's feasible [chunks are missing]: POEM ZERO (for Tom) Rose no more Fat Bastard - who cares? Squirrel seen rarely so yr beechnuts rise into this ether newly brother light even tangible in tubes and meander thro' clouds Red was it roses are red be hanged . fat Moon meaning thrown into running water fortunes . that easy . of gold Black is colour of love some . more azure some . more green some . more umber [ . . .] trine tarry a ritual that burn and the little mist that rise , above the holme AND GROAN crackle as timber stakes MALT by former skills of terraces particles dust and scorpion lanes fingered before the holocaust slide and across the water glimmer the fail line of two planets [ . . . ] blood rumba beating in the suburb blood rumba in the beating suburb blood rumba beating in the blood in the rumba blood blood rumba blood love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 17:10:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: AN: Aldon Nielsen: BAD In-Reply-To: <199603150544.AAA00675@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> no way to part Baraka's petics from his politics -- But, have to read things like _Rays, Raise etc._ and the essay that was titled (not by Baraka) "Confessions of an Ex-Anti Semite" -- alongside Stalinist verse of late 70s,,, alongside, in turn, more lyric pieces that appeared throughout -- Can't abide the antismitism of the earlier pieces, the homophobia of same period, the Stalinism that still appears from time to time,,, nor can I simply read around them as if they weren't there -- Have somehow to account for all of these appearing in the same man's life -- not easily accomplished ["poetics" for "petics" above] If one risks thinking out loud, one must be prepared to take repsonsibility for that loud thought (& Baraka has always been, as an early poem put it, loud on the changing of his ways) Derrida's remarks on the reading of Nietzche in his _The Ear of the Other_ have much to offer this discussion that so many are bowing out of -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 20:25:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: ghost titles then there's the dreaded book by Harold Bloom-- FREUD: TRANSFERENCE AND AUTHORITY...... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 17:25:44 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: AN: Aldon Nielsen: BAD >Derrida's remarks on the reading of Nietzche in his _The Ear >of the Other_ have much to offer this discussion that so many >are bowing out of -- now that things have calmed down, i'm bowing back in. i think it's very clear where i stand on the whole subject. if i may, i wld like to elaborate. that asshole pound was terribly hurt by the death of his dear friend gaudier-brzseska in WWI. WWI was perceived (rightly) as the deathknell of an entire civilization. even yeats flirted w/ fascism. wyndham lewis. they were all grasping at straws because everything they knew had just been shown to be bullshit. i can't imagine how painful that must have been for these people. i'd rather talk abt what fascism IS than talk abt how LOUSY it is --- we all agree on that, we all want to see an end to injustice and blind hatred. fascism as i understand it is a combination of several things: nationalism, deep concern w/ roots charles olson wc williams belief in and insistence upon racial purity castigate zukofsky for agreeing w/ "purifying the language of the tribe" coupled w/ racial/sexual intolerance kill the hip-hop artists exclusionism get rid of the anthologists bizzare distortions of history anyone who insists their cultural (in the widest possible sense of the word) ancestry is free from evil mysticism robert duncan robert kelly jack spicer john donne wm blake christopher smart abu abulafia paul celan blaming one's own problems on The Other everybody alive on this earth from the beginning of history proto-fascists, each and every one of the above named. okay. hitler was a vegetarian therefore all vegetarians partake in his madness to some degree. goebbels was a dope fiend so heroin addicts? fascism is one of the most recent of our blights. we HAVE to discuss it, but let's please try to discuss it w/o rancor no matter how much we hate it, otherwise we just end up getting pissed at each other, people bow out and nothing gets learned. i enjoy this list very much, and hope my outbursts have not alienated anybody. thanks chris ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.15.96 5:25:45 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 21:16:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: AN: Aldon Nielsen: BAD Dear Aldon-- thanks for taking up the baraka thread.... okay, i grant you these negative things about baraka BUT there's a couple issues here.... first, wasn't baraka closeted himself (re homophobia).... secondly, was talking to a *friend* lately about Laura Riding's THE WORD "WOMAN" in which at one point she makes an anti-homosexual statement....and we decided to "historicize" and "contextualize" it (in terms of her "project") as making a valid point about the homosocial qualities of the heterosexual male dominated canon and/or culture industry..... But the more important question I think needs to be raised, re WHOEVER (Baraka, Pound, Riding) is a question of OUR stance, and also of the the relationship between it and criticism of others. It's pretty damn easy and done over and over again recently to speak from a perspective of IMPLIED values ("liberal" and "democratic"?)--and this is not targeted at Aldon btw--and reactively critique the "great masters" for flaws in their politics. And this is a necessary step perhaps towards self- definition. Yet it seems so many are not going beyond it. Part of the MALAISE I see in academia and perhaps the poetry world is this FEAR of taking a stance. Alot of stuff I'm reading seems to have this attitude that "THOSE NAIVE MODERNISTS, those naive beats," back in the days when people really believed in such silly things as saying things, or even creating the illusion of immanence, or something.... related to this is the question of p.c. type verse.... probably one of the reasons the pound/baraka threads have been so HEATED is because there's passionate attachment and/or investment to the work (Pound: "can't move 'em with a cold thing like economics"--all writing is hero worship, etc.)--much of which has to do with PERSONALITY.... now there was the ANTI-PERSONALITY movement, the trouble with DUNCAN and GINSBERG, etc--that was perhaps born out of a recognition of the analogy with such differentiation on a personal level with a need for HEIRARCHIES which becomes disturbing on a "political" level. And since the personal is the political, therefore any admission even on aesthetic and/or subjective/psychological plane of the need for heirarchies is problematic and proto-fascist. I think such a rational needs to be rethought--it definitely accounts for why so many L poets don't write about things like LOVE and marriage from any kind of immanent perpsective --that becomes consigned to the margins and ironically the art/life distinction THICKENS (with usury?).... If we look at Pound from the perspective of a poet dissatisfied with the tepid PC qualities of his day (which he saw in ROOSEVELT, who for us of course is far better than CLINTON---WPA stuff etc...) and remember that he was looking for JEFFERSON and had to settle for MUSSOLINI, and that perhaps it was done out of a feeling of powerlessness--despite how POUND is now served up as a cultural authority (Oh yikes, I really didn't want to get into pound again....), we may not be able to REDEEM him, but at least we can see why it's NOT JUST THE FORMAL QUALITIES OF HIS WORK that make him a more potentially subversive poet than the so-called liberal stuff that gets in the NEW REPUBLIC or THE NATION..... But Baraka is (as Emily Lloyd brought up) a different issue because there is a LOT more empowering on a strictly political level to him.... sometimes I wonder if the critical attitude of superiority is not a form of censorship---and if that's the case why not THROW OUT EVERYBODY..... Ginsberg is AT LEAST as compromised as Baraka, for instance.... I mean why not dwell on the good Baraka did, does--- or is there a fear of that VULGAR MARXISM again, or does it come to close to home.... that maybe looking at BARAKA and seeing his failure, we retreat into the academy, and then convince ourselves it's not a retreat. And maybe it isn't. But Baraka went to jail to help blacks, not to bash gays.... Yeah, he failed. Well, we fail too--especially if we side with the boring drab academic drudges AGAINST the barakas of the world..... I'm not saying anybody here necessarily is. But if you can't change anybody's mind (shades of alfred corn!), at least there can be unity in diversity. I used to be involved in local political groups in the early 80's and we always got into arguments over the one or two things that divided us. That attests I think more to the NEED FOR ARGUMENT than anything. And though Lou Reed sang that song to Jesse Jackson about common ground (great guitar playing, LOU!) about "common ground", I still would rather accentuate the positive when it comes to Baraka.... Just as Susan Howe wrote HER Emily Dickinson. As Rod Smith says "you take what you need and leave the rest...." ........okay, i contradict myself...i am contained by multitudes.... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 21:19:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wendy Battin Subject: Re: let's talk about fascists, bay-bee... In-Reply-To: <199603150544.AAA00675@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Sorry, been away, and am only on digest lately. But where can I find Perelman's piece on EP? It's always seemed important to me to keep him in mind, both as great poet and as vicious politician--a warning that poetry doesn't make us what we'd like to think it does. Also a very personal warning to the autodidact and the isolated bright against the arrogance that comes with that territory--I wasn't born in Idaho in the 19th C., but grew up where his "I don't imagine America has any more idiots per capita than anywhere else" (loosely from memory) was a perverse comfort. Bad news. All that mostly entertaining early rage had to go somewhere, and there were plenty of hate-machines to absorb it. Still are. While I sympathize with Alan's refusal, I don't think it's safe to ignore this man, to rub him out of memory before we've taken him in. And his poetry caught me young & still shakes me--Pisan Cantos, yes, also Rock Drill & many others--to the point where I can't stop asking, ever, who can afford to hide in talent or even in genius. Wendy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 21:29:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: let's talk about fascists, bay-bee... Dear Wendy Battin--- Perelman's main writing on POUND is in "THE TROUBLE WITH GENIUS" (U-CAl Press, 1995, or is it 94?). He also had some essay on POUND and CELINE in an earlier form in POETICS JOURNAL..... I sat in on a course with him at U-Penn in 1990 on Pound and Stein and it was quite brilliant---really did close readings of ABC of READING and GUIDE TO KULCHUR as if they were POEMS rather than "prose"--- ---c, stroffolino ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 10:57:31 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Subject: Re: poetry center info/donations In-Reply-To: Henry, considering the location ("Cranston near the city line") might I suggest you name the poetry center after that son of Providence, Ted Berrigan? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 10:58:06 +0300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ada Aharoni Subject: Re: Bury Fascist Ezra Pound In-Reply-To: > At 11:36 PM 3/13/96 +0200, Ada Aharoni wrote: > > >What I suggest is -- just bury the guy and forget about him, alongside his "genius mates" Hitler and Mussolini. > Steve Carll answered: > It would be nice if things were this simple, wouldn't it? > > Hi! It could be that simple if we make it so. One of the methods I've used is just refuse to teach him to my students, and have stopped reading him a long time ago. From my point of view and that of many of my colleagues and students, as well as poets\critics around the world - Ezra Pound has already been buried alongside his "genius" friends, Hitler and Mussolini. Please don't resurrect him! He's dangerous to our world! Let's read Wilfred Owen instead, perhaps we would bring our world one inch closer to the world beyond war he dreamed about. Ada Aharoni ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 03:12:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Bury Fascist Ezra Pound In-Reply-To: Hey, no no no... I'm sorry, but _everyone_ should be read; the world is too complex to do a repeat cleansing. I've read Mein Kampf, Goebbels' Michael, most of Celine, a lot of Pound. If we're going to ever comprehend what we ourselves are, and not just our "evil" selves, the last thing we need is censorship. (And we should not read _X_ say "just for" the politics or to reprimand, violate - my own relationship to Heidegger is much more complex than that, for example, breaking out in other, productive directions.) To censor, is to give in; as someone else has pointed out, the fascists have won. There is another issue, incapable of resolution, needing discussion in the classroom, and that is the relationship of _any_ biographical infor- mation to the written texts of an author. This can't be passed over; I read Celine _cold,_ engrossed, sensing a violence towards myself, a vio- lence towards him, a Europe that Heiner Muller built on. I would never say, don't read Celine; I would say, read him _most of all_ - how else to comprehend the abject, ressentiment, burial? Alan On Sat, 16 Mar 1996, Ada Aharoni wrote: > > At 11:36 PM 3/13/96 +0200, Ada Aharoni wrote: > > > > >What I suggest is -- just bury the guy and forget about him, alongside > his "genius mates" Hitler and Mussolini. > > > Steve Carll answered: > > It would be nice if things were this simple, wouldn't it? > > > > Hi! > It could be that simple if we make it so. One of the methods I've used > is just refuse to teach him to my students, and have stopped reading him > a long time ago. From my point of view and that of many of my colleagues > and students, as well as poets\critics around the world - Ezra Pound has > already been buried alongside his "genius" friends, Hitler and Mussolini. > Please don't resurrect him! He's dangerous to our world! Let's read > Wilfred Owen instead, perhaps we would bring our world one inch closer to > the world beyond war he dreamed about. > > Ada Aharoni > With some new texts and image files - http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Other images at http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 00:07:56 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: Bury Fascist Ezra Pound but, ada, fascism didn't just suddenly spring into existence because of the minds of the "geniuses" you'd like to eradicate --- didn't stalin and mao love to rewrite history? --- it was and is a product of several thousand years of human history. don't you think it wld be better to try to undertsand why fascism exists instead of sweeping it under the carpet where it can fester and erupt again? the more we look at fascism, the more we expose it, the less of a chance it has of gripping our lives. bt we can not simply point a finger and accuse: we have to do our best to understand, even if that understanding may be very painful. because ultimately don't we have to examine our very souls for the seeds of fascism? yrs --- chris ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.16.96 12:07:56 am q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 13:05:20 +0300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ada Aharoni Subject: Re: Bury Fascist Ezra Pound In-Reply-To: > but, ada, fascism didn't just suddenly spring into existence because > of the minds of the "geniuses" you'd like to eradicate --- didn't stalin ....> > chris SORRY, HAVE NO TIME OR USE FOR READING ABOUT DESTRUCTIVENESS, FASCISM AND HATRED. I PREFER TO USE MY READING TIME FOR CONSTRUCTIVE ISSUES, AND LEARNING ABOUT NEW FIELDS IN POETRY THAT HAVE NOT BEEN OVER-KILLED BY USELESS "BADINAGE". I WISH I HAD MORE TIME TO READ MORE "WOMEN POETRY", "BLACK POETRY," "THIRD WORLD POETRY," "PEACE POETRY" ETC. WHY BOTHER WITH THE LIKES OF NAZI POUND? > ------------------------------------- > > q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they > said anything goes?" > --- charles wourinen (?) > > a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." > > --- george clinton > > snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa > voice: 510.524.5972 > http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 10:19:23 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R I Caddel Subject: Dom Sylvester Houedard In-Reply-To: <199603160504.FAA08717@hermes.dur.ac.uk> And it's good to see dsh cropping up on the list. The Ceolfrith publication must be long gone by now, as are other Ceolfrith publications of that time including my own, but there's still a chance to get the dsh special issue of words worth magazine (same outfit that did Carlyle Reedy's book) - that's : words worth books BM Box 4515 London WC1N 3XX - but dammit, I can't find the price! "write for further details"... By the way - let's have that superfluous e off the end of Thomas A. Clark's name! He only put the "A" in to avoid confusion with a similarly-named US literary figure... signed, The Librarian xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx x x x Richard Caddel, E-mail: R.I.Caddel @ durham.ac.uk x x Durham University Library, Phone: 0191 374 3044 x x Stockton Rd. Durham DH1 3LY Fax: 0191 374 7481 x x x x "Words! Pens are too light. Take a chisel to write." x x - Basil Bunting x x x xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 04:01:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: 16 Oz or (bow outs) Charles Alexander writes: "True, it does seem necessary to get noticed, and I think of some of the finest work of our moment being done by people who aren't all that good at getting noticed, such as Bev Dahlen, Mei-mei Berssenbrugge, and M. Nourbese Philip (thanks to Paul Naylor for suggesting this last writer). And I would like them to have more attention, but I'm also concerned that having a lot of fame/notoriety might not help their work at all. "I don't mean I want writers to be unnoticed, just that fame takes a price probably at least equal to what it gives." Charles, I'd add you to that list of poets who deserve much more wide exposure (not exactly the same as notoriety). Watching Ginsberg at Stanford last year (as distinct from at Naropa the year before), I realize that this is a man who never gets to read to an intimate audience, an audience where he knows a large portion of the readers first hand, an audience that even knows his work all that well, simply because of his fame (a cynical take on which can be found in Spicer's work). It seems like a lot to give up, frankly. So, who can introduce me to the work of M. Nourbese Philip? This is a new name to me. Books, quotes, etc? Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 05:32:14 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: let's NOT talk about fascists, but ourselves Wendy, "I wasn't born in Idaho in the 19th C., but..." Don't blame Idaho. Pound was very much a creature of the Philadelphia suburbs (going to Penn was not going "away"). At the end of his life he refers to his anti-semitism as a "suburban prejudice" and I fear that there's much more truth in that than we can to admit. I.e., it was (is) not his problem alone. I've been depressed by this entire discussion, frankly. The discussion on Baraka has been interesting, but it seems like so much of this is just re-opening old wounds and pain. I'm sympathetic to Alan Sondheim but wonder if there is ever any way out of that cycle of pain for people who have been or feel victimized. How women might feel about Carl Andre.... (or Bill Burroughs or Jack Spicer or...) How people who were sexually abused (or who have young sons) might feel about Ginsberg and Hakim Bey's activities on behalf of NAMBLA How people might feel about all that sexual come on (almost a form of stalking) that goes on in the correspondence of a Dahlberg or even an Olson... The problem of making a "perfect revolution" (to loop back into 30 year old language for a moment) is that we are, all of us, starting off from a condition of damage that history has brought to us and that we carry within ourselves in many different ways. The problem is not the "other guy's (or gal's)." The problem is us. Every heterosexual I've ever met (myself included) who was not homophobic seems to have been personally educated by a specific gay man or lesbian who helped them (me) to understand the world in a new way For this education in my life, I thank David Melnick. But I can remember just how macho the antiwar movement in the 1960s was, both homophobic and just plain sexist. It seems unimaginable now but was simply unquestioned then until some people actively stood up and did question it. And those were people who were trying to make a better world... So I wonder just how good a job I can do as a father helping my own sons not to carry that problem (homophobia) in their own lives, knowing how much of it they will get in school, from friends, etc. Not to mention racism, anti-semitism, sexism, agism, the whole shebang. Do we all have to learn these lessons over again and again, each person from scratch? It ain't easy... Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 21:50:17 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Subject: Re: let's NOT talk about fascists, but ourselves In-Reply-To: <199603161332.FAA03675@ix15.ix.netcom.com> Ron's post reminded me of one Chinese traditional theory of reading the Odes, which was meant to justify/explain the inclusion of certain "lascivious songs," the Odes of Zheng (which Pound described as 'a sort of crooning or boogie-woogie'), anyway, the problem was to reconcile the presence of immoral poems within a moral text. the solution offered by the Song neo-Confucian Zhu Xi was that, by reading these immoral odes, you could experience immoral thoughts and, having internalized them, you would be prepared and able to defend yourself against the immoral acts that might be the consequence when circumstances caused you to have the immoral thoughts, i.e., reading Pound one enters into the consciousness of a fascist and perhaps, as a consequence, can recognize fascism in one's own self. or antisemitism or homophobia or whatever the condition. I wouldn't want to suggest that the only justification for reading Pound is prophylaxis (now I sound like Pound) but it is one way to deal with the fascism. in any case, this century* is defined by the two mirror ideologies of fascism and communism, our art will also be understood by the future in their context, and in this sense we'll be in the same boat as Dante and that awful medieval Catholicism. * the one that's finally almost over ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 07:12:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Fwd: The poetry of Lenore Kandel (fwd) This showed up on the Sixties List this morning. Please contact Karen directly (I don't think she's on this list, so a "reply" won't work). Ron ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Karen Kling Subject: The poetry of Lenore Kandel Hi. Does anyone know where I can get a copy of poems by Lenore Kandel? She was a popular Haight Ashbury poet who wrote a book of Love Poems that was seized in the late 1960's for being too explicit. I am currently doing research on the writinngs of those who were there at the start of the Haight Ashbur phenomenon. I would appreciate any information. -Karen Kling kk15968@academia.swt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 10:13:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wendy Battin Subject: Re: let's talk about In-Reply-To: <199603160521.AAA16637@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Dear Chris Stroffolino, many thanks for the Perelman info Wendy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 10:27:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Golumbia Subject: Re: let's NOT talk about fascists, but ourselves Thanks Ron -- once again, you've summarized a vitally important "theoretical" issue without even one time using theoretical language, achieving a level of clarity and directness that even the best cultural theory, for me, sometimes lacks (is *this* what being a language poet, or an "M poet," etc., means??) At any rate, for those with a taste for MORE theoretical language, and back to the D. word again, several of Derrida's recent works (I'm thinking of OF SPIRIT, POINTS, "At this very moment in this work here I am," MEMOIRES FOR PAUL DE MAN, "'Passions': An Oblique Offering," THE OTHER HEADING, &c &c) offer a series of reflections on this topic with regard to figures like de Man & Heidegger that strike me as very much in line with Ron's comments & those of some others. Also cf. Gayatri Spivak's "Responsibility" in _boundary 2_. I agree with those who've suggested that there's no easy answer to these issues -- & pretending there are no hard questions is one of those easy answers that aren't. -- dgolumbi@sas.upenn.edu David Golumbia ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 07:51:22 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: FW: let's NOT talk about fascists, but ourselves --- On Sat, 16 Mar 1996 05:32:14 -0800 Ron Silliman wrote: >Wendy, > > >I've been depressed by this entire discussion, frankly. I'VE BEEN ENRAGED >The discussion on Baraka has been interesting, but it seems like so >much of this is just re-opening old wounds and pain. I'm sympathetic to >Alan Sondheim but wonder if there is ever any way out of that cycle of >pain for people who have been or feel victimized. YES, I THINK THERE IS A WAY OUT --- I FOUND MY OWN WAY OUT --- IT WAS NOT EASY AND IT IS STILL NOT EASY >How women might feel about Carl Andre.... (or Bill Burroughs or Jack >Spicer or...) > >How people who were sexually abused (or who have young sons) might feel >about Ginsberg and Hakim Bey's activities on behalf of NAMBLA BEING A VICTIM OF SEXUAL ABUSE ALONG W/ MOST EVERY OTHER KIND OF ABUSE A CHILD CAN SUFFER I AM HERE TO SAY THAT IT HAS NOT HELPED IN MY APPRECIATION OF THEIR WORK. >How people might feel about all that sexual come on (almost a form of >stalking) that goes on in the correspondence of a Dahlberg or even an >Olson... >The problem of making a "perfect revolution" (to loop back into 30 year >old language for a moment) is that we are, all of us, starting off from >a condition of damage that history has brought to us and that we carry >within ourselves in many different ways. The problem is not the "other >guy's (or gal's)." The problem is us. EXACTLY SO, RON, THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS SO DIRECTLY. >Every heterosexual I've ever met (myself included) who was not >homophobic seems to have been personally educated by a specific gay man >or lesbian who helped them (me) to understand the world in a new way > >For this education in my life, I thank David Melnick. FOR MINE I THANK ONE OF MY BEST HIGHSCHOOL FRIENDS, TED VAN WHY, WHO CAME OUT TO ME IN 1974 --- I SAID "DON'T CARE, JUST AS LONG AS YOU DON'T TRY TO FUCK ME." TED LOOKED AT ME, DECIDED NOT TO GET PISSED, AND SAID "WHAT MAKES YOU THINK I FIND YOU ATTRACTIVE?" . WE BEGAN TO LAUGH, AND THEN BEGAN TO TALK ABT IT. WE HAVE TO TALK ABT THESE THINGS, BUT WE HAVE TO TALK ABT THEM W/O TOO MUCH RANCOR AND W/ REAL SENSITIVITY TO EVERYONE ELSE'S EXPERIENCE OR WE POUR SALT IN SOMEONE'S WOUNDS AND THAT CAN NOT HELP. >But I can remember just how macho the antiwar movement in the 1960s >was, both homophobic and just plain sexist. It seems unimaginable now >but was simply unquestioned then until some people actively stood up >and did question it. > >And those were people who were trying to make a better world... > >So I wonder just how good a job I can do as a father helping my own >sons not to carry that problem (homophobia) in their own lives, knowing >how much of it they will get in school, from friends, etc. Not to >mention racism, anti-semitism, sexism, agism, the whole shebang. Do we >all have to learn these lessons over again and again, each person from >scratch? YES I THINK WE DO --- IT SEEMS A TERRIBLE THING BUT I THINK IT IS UP TO EACH OF US TO HONESTLY AND COURAGEOUSLY FIND THESE THINGS OUT FOR OURSELVES WITHIN OURSELVES --- OTHERWISE OUR SOCIETY BECOMES OVERWHELMINGLY PC (IT CURRENTLY SHOWS THE SIGNS) --- LIKE THE RED GUARD DURING THE CULTURAL REVOLUTION IN CHINA --- CONSTANT DENUNCIATION --- BLAME --- OPPRESSION OF DIFFERENCE --- WCH AS WE HAVE SEEN --- OVER AND OVER AGAIN THROUGHOUT HUMAN HISTORY --- LEADS TO SOMETHING MUCH MORE TERRIBLE AND DISHONEST --- THE INQUISITOR'S QUESTION WE DO NOT NEED TO BE TOLD, WE NEED TO BE SHOWN --- WE DO NOT NEED TO MERELY HATE, WE ALSO NEED TO UNDERSTAND >It ain't easy... AMEN TO THAT. BUT IT'S ESSENTIAL. THANKS VERY MUCH FOR THIS POSTING, RON >Ron Silliman > -----------------End of Original Message----------------- ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.16.96 7:51:23 am q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 10:21:35 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: let's NOT talk about fascists, but ourselves yeah, that was a great post, ron... and thanx to others too for keeping this thread productively alive---alan, chris's, jerry, david, ada, peter, michael, carla etc... one thing that strikes me is the willingness hereabouts and in general to discuss pound's fascism as such, whatever one's ultimate opine, in part b/c it's been a controversy from way back... as opposed to, say, getting twain folks to discuss outright twain's nastier tendencies... by which i mean to say that the pound issue is a valuable locus of points if only b/c it permits for plumbing the personal/political/poetic... alan's right about this: there's value in reading even the bad and the ugly... even as i can appreciate that tolerance for same may reduce to individual motivation... and yeah, we each have that little jack-boot fascist inside someplace... mebbe the point is finding ways not to let him out... joe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 11:33:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Jaeger Subject: Re: Marlene Noubese Philip and Pound In-Reply-To: <199603161201.EAA07670@ix14.ix.netcom.com> On Sat, 16 Mar 1996, Ron Silliman wrote: > So, who can introduce me to the work of M. Nourbese Philip? This is a > new name to me. Books, quotes, etc? Marlene Nourbese Philip is a Tobago born poet and essayist who now lives in Canada (Toronto, I think). Her work is challenging because of its use of two dicourses, a so-called standard (educated middle class) Canadian English and what she calls the Caribean demotic. Her book _She Tries Her Tongue her silence softly breaks_ (Charlottown: Ragweed Press, 1989) provides a good example. To pick up a thread from the Pound discussion, Nourbese Phillip's writing certainly can be situated in a genealogy which includes Pound, regardless of her radically different poilitcal agenda, i.e. her search for a "mother tongue" which has been silenced by colonialism. This search is formally enacted through fragmented long poems, classical mythological intertexts, and citations to historical figures. I'm sure I would never have understood her project without some knowledge of the generic conventions that she uses and/or breaks. Conventions I learned about through reading Pound. So until someone can convince me otherwise, I'm for the "if Pound is censored, fascism has won" position. Peter Jaeger ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 08:37:48 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: let's NOT talk about fascists, but ourselves joe amato wrote: >and yeah, we each have that little jack-boot fascist inside someplace... >mebbe the point is finding ways not to let him out... > >joe almost precisely agree. wld like to refine: mebbe the point is finding ways to DISARM HIM chris ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.16.96 8:37:48 am q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 12:31:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: Re: let's NOT talk about fascists, but ourselves Just as an aside: NAMBLA is not about child abuse, but challenging age-of-consent laws and "who is old enough to have rights." A friend of mine, Rick, 23, whose lover (also my friend) is Jason, 15, was charged by Jason's mother as an "abuser of children" because she didn't want to deal with her son's homosexuality. She couldn't have cared less how old Rick was, but used his age as a means of preventing them from seeing each other. The age discrepancy between them may seem big, but when I was 15 and dating college men no one complained or cried "abuse." "Children's" rights, sexual and otherwise, are important. NAMBLA seeks to empower, not abuse, queer kids. Aside over: this business of raising kids in society is a scary one. It does seem to me that an important thing to think about is how to be a parent/teacher w/o putting our kids into a hierarchical relationship with us. Like Ron says, our kids are going to get different perspectives from their friends, etc.--and, from my own (I think this is common) experience, kids are more likely to listen to their friends than their parents; they assume lessons from parents have "motives" and lessons from friends don't. So, it's "desirable" to have one's kids think of one as a friend & equal. One thing I'd like to get rid of (along with those gender pronouns) is "Mom" and "Dad" as opposed to first names. I saw a preview for a film, I forget which one, and the father was talking about sex with his new lover, and the son said, "Please. I'm not ready to think of you as a human being yet." That really resonated with me. It's "funny," but it's also scary as hell. Carolyn Forche writes, "When my son was born, I became mortal." Our kids, unless we stride otherways, are more likely to see it the opposite way: when our kids are born, we become (inhuman) gods. I spent some time on a commune a few years back & met the most amazing kids. They were, *really*, small people. 5-year-olds, 8-year-olds, sitting there participating in political discussions with myself and other "adults," and completely willing to call us on our opinions. As a kid I don't think I *ever* stood up (other than tantrums or whining) to adults, certainly not *strangers*. These kids had been taught that they were people; they hadn't been told "I'm the mommy, that's why" or "You'll understand when you're older." They weren't in hierarchical relationships with their parents (except economically)--and it seems to me that kids like this are more likely to stand up to folks in the Real World, to call bullshit, to resist "peer pressure," etc. I don't think we need to raise our kids on communes to raise kids like this. e (lowercase for eryque) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Emily Lloyd emilyl@mail.erols.com "And how one goes about educating that would-be audience may very likely determine the history of that moment, its direction, the qualities that become emphatic and characteristic of its later influence." --Lyn Hejinian ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 09:35:25 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Baraka again In-Reply-To: <199603160521.AAA16637@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> well, the first time Baraka went to jail it was because of his reading matter (in the Air Force) and the second time he went to jail it was for what he had printed in _Floating Bear_, and what might irk me is that most people would not see that this was still a cse of going to jail "to help black people" -- Look, none of this has anything to do with assuming any position of superiority, and I was talking about Baraka because it was his name that had been brought up in the discussion -- One does not engage in a critique of racism in verse simply so that one can then hold oneself proudly above it, as having gotten beyond all that -- It is important to anatomize racism in American poetry, antisemitism, homophobia, because we HAVE NOT gotten beyond all that! I do not believe it possible to read Pound coherently without attempting to understand the way in which antisemitism functioned in his thought, and in his poetics -- I do not beliueve we can understand Baraka's post-cultural nationalism poetics/politics without analysing carefully, AS HE DID HIMSELF IN A SERIES OF ESSAYS, the variious dead-ends of that nationalism -- OF COURSE the same sorts of analyses need to be done with other poets as well -- for one example, I think many in the academy who have been gushing about RAP and cultural studies could learn an imprtant cautionary lesson from the BEATS writings about jazz -- And most importantly, the telegraphic ref. to Derrida had to do with this -- We cannot dismiss the NAZI appropriations of Nietzsche simply as rank misreadings, nor can we leave unchallenged readings of Nietzsche that sugest that Nazism is an inevitable outcome of his texts. What we need are readings that account for the ways in which Nietzsche's texts lend themselves to both Nazi and antiNazi readings -- I do not read the racism of tate's poetry or the antisemitism of one phase of Baraka as a means of dismissing these poets, but as a means of understanding what they mean FOR US NOW, how those politics continue to affect our reading, thinking and writing today -- to place a writer in his or her historical context, whether Jefferson or Baraka, is not done either to dismiss or to rescue that writer's racism, but to understand it as living discourse ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 12:58:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew D Epstein Subject: Silliman and Hejinian Reading In-Reply-To: Hi. This is my first post here, but it's just an annoucement. Last week someone mentioned they had seen a flyer for this reading, and I just wanted to make it official. For those of you in the New York area: The F. W. Dupee Poetry Reading Series at Columbia University (founded and organized by Kenneth Koch) is pleased to present: Lyn Hejinian and Ron Silliman Tuesday, March 19 8 PM Maison Francaise Columbia University 116th and Broadway Admission is FREE and there will be a reception following with wine and cheese and other things. Please come! (If anyone needs directions to the Maison Francaise at Columbia, feel free to contact me). Andrew Epstein ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 13:11:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: - Kim Tedrow Subject: Re: Bury Fascist Ezra Pound > At 11:36 PM 3/13/96 +0200, Ada Aharoni wrote: > > >What I suggest is -- just bury the guy and forget about him, alongside his "genius mates" Hitler and Mussolini. > Steve Carll answered: > It would be nice if things were this simple, wouldn't it? > >Ada responded: > Hi! > It could be that simple if we make it so. One of the methods I've used >is just refuse to teach him to my students, and have stopped reading him >a long time ago....... About 10 years ago, I stopped reading anything written by men because I was pissed off about sexism. Showed THEM didn't I? -Kim ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 13:20:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: Bury Fascist Ezra Pound Alan Sondheim: >Hey, no no no... I'm sorry, but _everyone_ should be read; the world is >too complex to do a repeat cleansing. I've read Mein Kampf, Goebbels' >Michael, most of Celine, a lot of Pound. If we're going to ever >comprehend what we ourselves are, and not just our "evil" selves, the >last thing we need is censorship. (And we should not read _X_ say "just >for" the politics or to reprimand, violate - my own relationship to >Heidegger is much more complex than that, for example, breaking out in >other, productive directions.) > >To censor, is to give in; as someone else has pointed out, the fascists >have won. Exactly. Yay Alan! Think back to hich school history class, someone would invarably ask "Why do we have to know all this stupid stuff?" The responsemy teachers gave was invariably that old quote "He who doesn't know the past is doomed to repeat it." (loosely from my remembery of loosely given quotes). It's a crock of shit of course, but it does give a perspective of what goes on (there was a party across the hall last night, noone was over 25 and EVERYone was wearing bellbottoms or polyester flower shirts, and it wasn't a costume party). Knowledge of history does give us a way out (sometimes) when we see the bad shit going down, even if that way out is to migrate to friendlier climates. To say simply "we should stamp out pound and not read him" might be okay ONLY IF YOU'VE ALREADY READ HIM, or at least enough to be disgusted by his ideals, but it's certainly not okay as a general rule for everyone, particularly since he is, like it or not, an important poet as (i think it was) chris s. pointed out. I don't care how adamately you don't want to read someone, and i don't care how violently you assert YOUR right not to read them, but please don't let it get beyond YOURself. Ada: >SORRY, HAVE NO TIME OR USE FOR READING ABOUT DESTRUCTIVENESS, >FASCISM AND >HATRED. I PREFER TO USE MY READING TIME FOR CONSTRUCTIVE ISSUES, >AND >LEARNING ABOUT NEW FIELDS IN POETRY THAT HAVE NOT BEEN >OVER-KILLED BY >USELESS "BADINAGE". I WISH I HAD MORE TIME TO READ MORE "WOMEN >POETRY", >"BLACK POETRY," "THIRD WORLD POETRY," "PEACE POETRY" ETC. WHY >BOTHER WITH >THE LIKES OF NAZI POUND? > ------------------------------------- Way to assert YOUR right not to read him. But do we have "black poetry" without someone to oppress blacks, make it a class rather than an adjective? Love, (and i mean that) Eryque and now that i'm about to send this i get ron's and joe's and chris's postses. amen amen amen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 13:44:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: Re: Baraka again Aldon wrote: >-- We cannot dismiss the NAZI appropriations of Nietzsche simply as rank >misreadings, nor can we leave unchallenged readings of Nietzsche that >sugest that Nazism is an inevitable outcome of his texts. What we need >are readings that account for the ways in which Nietzsche's texts lend >themselves to both Nazi and antiNazi readings -- well, here we're in a dangerous area. As far as I'm concerned, Nietzsche was very CLEARLY against fascism in his writings. ALL texts in the world "submit" themselves to different readings, readings that the author didn't intend. Like, say, the bible. One would have to disregard MOST of Nietzsche to hallucinate a pro-Nazi stance, as one has to disregard most of the bible to be a member of the religious right. It's like, what do you do with the guy who goes out and rapes a bunch of women and has a copy of "Playboy" in his glove compartment? Not, as far as I'm concerned, blame "Playboy." Is it possible to write responsibly for irresponsible readers? To make sure they won't find what they're determined to find? e PS--my messages were getting bounced back to me again, so I've double-subscribed to poetics until I can figure out which subscription is working and which isn't. Is everyone getting my messages twice? I hope not. How obnoxious. Let me know. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Emily Lloyd emilyl@mail.erols.com "I know that I know myself/no more than a seed curled in the dark of a winged pod/knows flourishing" --R. Hass ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 10:41:13 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: Bury Fascist Ezra Pound was it raymond federman said abt beckett: the more sam rubs our noses in the shit the more we love it by quoting wch i mean to say (along w/ ron, eryque, joe, alan, wendy, emily, all us chris's and EVERYBODY else and i mean EVERYBODY): the more you look, the more you learn. the more you learn, the more you know. the more you know, the more you can change IF YOU HAVE THE CAPACITY to change. olson: what does not change/ is the will to change i wld change that "does" to "must" for what it's worth later ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.16.96 10:41:13 am q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 13:57:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: let's NOT talk about fascists, but ourselves >I spent some time on a commune a few years back & met the most amazing kids. >They were, *really*, small people. 5-year-olds, 8-year-olds, sitting there >participating in political discussions with myself and other "adults," and >completely willing to call us on our opinions. As a kid I don't think I >*ever* stood up (other than tantrums or whining) to adults, certainly not >*strangers*. These kids had been taught that they were people; they hadn't >been told "I'm the mommy, that's why" or "You'll understand when you're >older." They weren't in hierarchical relationships with their parents >(except economically)--and it seems to me that kids like this are more >likely to stand up to folks in the Real World, to call bullshit, to resist >"peer pressure," etc. I don't think we need to raise our kids on communes >to raise kids like this. e (lowercase for eryque) Emily, (and btw, i've taken to capitalizing only the first letter of sentences for readability, when i remember to follow my own rules :-) Amazing story, five year olds actually taking place in political discussions? I've met some bright kids, but few that young that would keep a thought around long enough to form solid "intellectual" opinions (as opposed to emotional ones). My mommy always makes fun of her mommy for saying "because i'm the Mommy", but then turns right around and does it anyway. Thank god she can't ground me anymore. eryQue ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 10:54:10 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: Bury Fascist Ezra Pound abt 10 years ago i read a small book of translations of italian and german fascist manifesti, etc., all written before WWII. i'm almost ashamed to admit this, but at the time i was both repulsed by and attracted to these ideas, and i was so scared i immediately began to wonder why. my current attitude is the result of that wondering, which continues to this day and (such is my fervent wish) will go on until i die. ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.16.96 10:54:10 am q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 11:02:48 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: Baraka again emily --- PS--my messages were getting bounced back to me again, so I've double-subscribed to poetics until I can figure out which subscription is working and which isn't. Is everyone getting my messages twice? I hope not. How obnoxious. Let me know. i'm not getting them twice. ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.16.96 11:02:49 am q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 15:25:28 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Perez Subject: learning about the other I think what Ron has said about his "homosexuality" is right on the money. I found when I came to a point that I was questioning my own sexuality, that I was getting into more and more discussions with friends who were homosexuals, finding out about what it meant to come out, what helped them to come out, etc? As well as finding out more and more about gay culture. But for a friend of mine it was a little different... She wasn't questioning her sexuality, but here homophobia, not exactly...more of a fear of gay life and an extreme disgust for it, she had been brought up in an extremely anti-homosexual household. Through working as a waitress she was able to get in touch with that "other," a very nice gay man who was a bartender. She got to know him before she knew he was gay, and was finally led to see that "gays are real people, too." It's too easy to say that the other is inhuman, something that was used to justify all kinds of inhumanity (I find this term odd, because humans are very good at being inhumane). To further the happy ending to her story, she now works with a gay man who is a drag queen and has brought started to get her to come out to some drag shows in DC. Transvestites were weird dirty perverts to her (parental and media education there) and has found these drag shows to be great celebratory experiences, as well as just plain fun. I'd also like to say my "chronic depression" comment has inspired responses that I agree with whole heartedly. I wasn't trying to be so literal, but I should watch myself when in such emotionally charged waters. What I was trying to do was open up the discussion to what causes "fascism," and for me chronic depression, etc. is what made me run into the arms of a heterosexual, homo-phobic, community as a young adolescent, and was comparing that kind of wrong-headed move, and trying to understand it through my own experience. I should have explained it more, but keeping things to yourself becomes a habit after a while. Thanks to chris daniels who was so much more lucid on the topic and was able to bring a lot of factors to light that we should all think about. Not to keep on the point, but I think burying Pound is a very wrong idea. My roomate (he's Jewish) and I got into a very emotional discussion of the holocaust one night and I learned the true meaning of "forgive but never forget." If we forget Hitler, Mussolini, Pound, etc. we will never be able to investigate what is in us that causes these extreme inhumanities. When I read Conrad's work (rampant racism in "...Darkness") it allows me to see aspects of racism in myself that I need to work against. I think the same of the work of Pound, Hitler, etc. Sorry if I'm dragging this out, but I think revising fascism out of history just improves its forecast for the future. James Perez jmp2p@virginia.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 15:28:43 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Perez Subject: Re: let's NOT talk about fascists, but ourselves aside to Emily... "I'm not ready to think of you as a human being yet" is from "Kicking and Screaming" amazing how a line that is supposed to be a joke, about a typical situation...thinking about your parents having sex...really pegs down a very disturbing subject James Perez jmp2p@virginia.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 15:39:13 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Perez Subject: Re: Baraka again re: appropriations of Nietzsche by the Nazi's I think this is the same as the Nazi appropriation of Wagner and other German art that I had discussed re. Anselm Keifer's work. I think we have to reclaim these things. It reminds me of the history of dynamite. Invented as a digging tool. Or nuclear fusion/fission...a power source. With every breakthrough there is the opportunity for wrong-headed use. Can the invention of dynamite be said to inherently contain its use as a destructive weapon of war. Perhaps. Can the invention of nuclear fusion be blamed with the massive destruction caused by the bombs. It can also be blamed for the lives saved in radiology and radio-therapies. Anything can be twisted into a "bad" thing by the right person. That just takes the same amount of creativity pointed in a direction that is very human, but that we like to think is inhuman (I'm human, he's not, therefore I am not like him...now I feel better). James Perez jmp2p@virginia.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 15:09:01 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Paul Naylor Subject: Nourbese Philip Peter beat me to the punch on Nourbese Philip. Glad to hear that others are reading her work. _She Tries Her Tongue, Her Silence Softly Breaks_ (Ragweed, 1989), which won the Casa de las Americas Prize in 1988, is her best work, and there is one poem in particular that engages Pound directly. It's in a series called "The Question of Language is the Answer to Power" (which was also published in _Hambone #8). Here's an excerpt: word it off speech it off word in my word word in your word I going word my word begin the in of beginning _OO as in how did they 'lose' a language._ empires _oo as in 'look' at the spook erect with the new "Make it new" he said "Make it new" floundering in the old For those interested, Nourbese also has a fine collection of essays, _Frontiers: Essays and Writings on Racism and Culture_ (The Mercury Press, 1992) and a long poem in poetry and prose, _Looking For Livingstone_ (The Mercury Press, 1991) as well as an "adolescent" (for lack of a better term), _Harriet's Daughter_ (Heinemann, 1988) I should also note that all but the collection of essays are published under the name Marlene Nourbese Philip. She also has a piece of fiction in the latest issue of _Hambone_. I think her work is well worth searching out -- for many of the reasons Peter mentions. And, finally, to put in yet another plug for _River City_, she's a contributing editor (along with Nathaniel Mackey, Michael Davidson, and Omar Castaneda), and we will be publishing an interview with Nourbese in the upcoming special issue on "The Caribbean: South of the South." Paul Naylor MAIL SEND in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" SEND in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" SEND in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 16:16:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: switzerland What are you reading these days. --Jd ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 15:24:45 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Paul Naylor Subject: Nourbese Philip Just a correction to my earlier post. _Harriet's Daughter_ is a _novel_ addressed to adolescents (still for lack of a better term). And she does live in Toronto and has for the last 25 years, which is one reason her work isn't well known in the U.S. Paul Naylor MAIL SEND in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" SEND in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 16:41:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: Re: learning about the other Having been "My First Homo" to a number of people, I have to say I'm a little worried about the "I was homophobic, but then I met this nice normal homosexual" thing. I don't wish to underestimate the power of personal experience--"evidence"--to change minds in a nice & effective way, but...what if you never meet that special homo? What if all the gay people you meet are assholes? You stay homophobic? When friends tell me I'm the first dyke they've ever met, I get a little worried about the (implied) responsibility: I'll be the deciding factor. What if I'm in a bitchy mood? Uh-oh. I've also been told, in many a relieved voice, "Oh, wow, you're not like the stereotype at all." Meaning, workboots crewcut & flannel. While I know that stereotypes are harmful, and while it's nice to know that in some way I've de-legitimized them for these "wow"-ing folks, I'm more interested in asking: what's wrong with workboots? What if I *were* "like that"? Would we then not have spoken? If meeting me, a "nice" "normal" (loosely) homo has changed your mind about homosexuality, does this mind-change include the workboot gals---or do they still repulse you? And if so, why? Do you still "have a problem" with homosexuality, just not with me? Mistaking your lack of emilyphobia for a lack of homophobia? etc. In days of old (highschool) I felt very pleased to put a friendly "normal" face on homosexuality for my small Virginian town. "Look, she's in the honor society! First chair clarinet! She laughs! She cries! She eats food!" etc. But I *have* realized that, for ex., my family members, "accept" me but not "those daggers" or "those queens." Thanks, but no thanks. I'd rather the idea of "normalcy" be questioned than my "normalcy" praised. Or, in other words, I don't think it should be the responsibility of gay people to cure straight people's homophobia. flaunting it, e ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Emily Lloyd emilyl@mail.erols.com "I know that I know myself/no more than a seed curled in the dark of a winged pod/knows flourishing" --R. Hass ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 17:03:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: let's NOT talk about fascists, but ourselves yes, chris daniels to DISARM the little fascist in us all is TO LET HIM (gender?) OUT, not to keep it bottled up.... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 17:26:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: p.s. other Sorry I was a little frothy in that last post. I forgot to mention another problem I have with "getting rid of one's homophobia" because of one great gay person one met. That's: is it not possible you might meet one helluva-guy fascist or Nazi? How do we want to decide what we believe? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Emily Lloyd emilyl@mail.erols.com "I know that I know myself/no more than a seed curled in the dark of a winged pod/knows flourishing" --R. Hass ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 17:29:17 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: let's NOT talk about fascists, but ourselves emily sed: >Just as an aside: NAMBLA is not about child abuse, but challenging >age-of-consent laws and "who is old enough to have rights." A friend of >mine, Rick, 23, whose lover (also my friend) is Jason, 15, was charged by >Jason's mother as an "abuser of children" because she didn't want to deal >with her son's homosexuality. She couldn't have cared less how old Rick >was, but used his age as a means of preventing them from seeing each other. >The age discrepancy between them may seem big, but when I was 15 and dating >college men no one complained or cried "abuse." "Children's" rights, sexual >and otherwise, are important. NAMBLA seeks to empower, not abuse, queer kids. that view would carry more weight with me if NAMBLA was an organization of queer kids; it is in fact primarily made up of adults, most of whom have a vested interest (by virture of their taste in sexual partners) in lowering the age of consent. i'm for empowering children in all areas ov their lives, as i am for empowering all individuals... which i think means opposing the ability of people with more power from using that position for their own benefit at the expense of those with less power. despite their rhetoric, i don't believe that is the agenda of NAMBLA. but to address ron's original question; as a survivor of abuse, one of the things i do is to speak up when folks would ignore or whitewash the kinds of situations that have caused me so much pain. just as various have vehemently reminded me of the pain that pound caused, & still cause. i'll continue to read pound for what i find of use, but i appreciate the reminders here that his work is compromised--for that matter, i'll still read ginsberg; but i won't pretend his NAMBLA shit means anything more than he'd like to sleep with young guys. sincere luigi ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 17:39:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Baraka again Dear Aldon-- You're right. I overstated the case about the reasons Baraka went to jail. Further, yes Baraka did ANALYZE HIMSELF IN A SERIES OF ESSAYS ABOUT HIS INVOLVEMENT in Black Nationalism. But to me--I still love reading the stuff from the period. My only regret is that certain anthologies don't publish stuff AFTER that period--and give the distorted view of a two phased Baraka. The dead lecturer somewhat white assimilati- onist Jones (learning the language of the enemy to some extent so he could curse in it?--or at least get famous in white circles, a la the early FANON--and there may be a psychological need for this as well, a genuine love in the early years of Olson/Creeley/O'Hara who influenced that work) and then the BLACK NATIONALIST. Yet, since I am interested in Baraka's whole OUEVRE (sic?), I think we can't simply dismiss even (scratch even) this phase as nothing but negative. The separatism, like Malcolm X's, WAS heroic, and perhaps a necessary phase. Granted, it's easy to say this in retrospect (and may have been harder to accept at the time--if I may strain an analogy here, just as NASHVILLE SKYLINE alienated alot of Dylan's fans at the time, but later listeners see it as part of the overall sense of Dylan)--Yet, part of this very much has to do with CLEARING A SPACE FOR ONESELF.... you know? the whole Blake "I must create my own...or be enslaved by another's" and in such a creation often EXTREME postures are needed. The struggle against anti-semitism, homophobia, racism, classism, sexism (did i leave anything out?) can not be enforced. I certainly would appreciate it if anybody calls me on what may be perceived as any kind of hate politics. But the absence of hate is not enough, and the FEAR of being seen as sexist, racist, etc, may be a problem to address. I'll offer two examples: One of them reminds me of the POMO thread. While teaching a class of mostly black students, one student told me how she finds a certain kind of racism in the pious use of the term "african american" by so many whites. Now, this is a thorny issue--and the fact that I generally say BLACK does not make me immune...but this reminded me of a time I saw Angela Davis at Smith College lecture about how Northeast liberals (as I think she categorized them) are in some ways worse than the BLATANT racism of the southeners. At least they, she said, can look us in the eye...and deal with us on a day to day level as people. There's an irony here I, Chris Stroffolino, am only scratching the surface of. But it's something to think about. The other point is a story I love to tell in private.... It revolves around a reading I did years ago with a prominent male Language poet. I read a poem called BLACKBURNIANA in the midst of my more "abstract" pieces. In this poem, like Blackburn, I wrote of watching admiringly women's physical appearance in NYC---knowing damn well I ran the risk of being called sexist, but feeling HEMMED IN and needing to simply let it out. Well, the male poet came out and called it, and Paul Blackburn, sexist. Luckily, a famous woman avant-gardist/academic (who generally was unsupportive of my work), came to my defense..... The point is these questions are very complex.... and that anger (even if simply WRONG and misdirected) may be better than this unspoken, hidden, bottled up fear that often passes for enlightenment. --at least as a phase. Chris Stroffolino "a sin that is mortal in a master is venial in a slave"--- P.B. Shelley ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 15:18:09 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Filkins Subject: Re: let's NOT talk about fascists, but ourselves Emily, >One thing I'd like to get rid of (along with those gender pronouns) is "Mom" >and "Dad" as opposed to first names. This is a fascinating subject you raise and I must say it is not as simple as you specify. Our daughter spent the first few months of her life _very_ isolated in that we did not go out very often. We had very few visitors. My wife and I call each other by our first names. Yet she came up with sounds like "ma" & "da" seemingly out of the blue by the time she was six months old. I at one time felt exactly like you describe above concerning "Mom" & "Dad". My daughter however has changed my mind. When discussing this topic with some friends who happen to be linguists I was informed that the "m", "a", & "d" sounds are among the first articulations which english speakers make. While it is true that there are no doubt many spoken & unspoken clues which we gave our daughter concerning the validity of "ma" & "da" (i must admit it thrilled me to no end the first time she said "da") the current theories hold that she is predisposed because of being surrounded by english speakers to come up with those sounds. Every language has its own primary dispositions towards sounds. Those which have much in common, i.e. english, russian, spanish, for instance are likely to have similar predispositions, which they do. While those with different roots, such as swahili, hauza (sp), etc are likely to have other primary sound dispositions, which they do. This of course might all be bullshit, but my personal experience bears this out. Our daughter calls us by a number of names - our first names (although she hasn't quite mastered mine yet), nani, mom, mommy, dad, daddy, ma, da, you, hey, the list goes on & we have been extremely contientious about not imposing any preferences on her. There are a whole host of things in the world of language i disagreed with vehemently before she came along. And most of those she has blown out of the water and made me completely rethink. I owe her alot for the this education. Nothing is so simple as just getting rid of "mom" or "dad" or gender pronouns. The situation is far more complex. Some questions: What determines the predisposition towards sounds, if it were purely the shape of the mouth etc. would the first sounds in english still be "m", "d", & "a"? What social aspects of language impinge on this choice of first sounds? Why does english have gender pronouns in the way it does? How do other languages deal with this subject and why is there a difference? After talking with my linguist friends i can certainly understand why language aquisition is such a hot topic in linguistics. It has got to be one of the most fascinating things to participate in and observe. It's especially relevent to me as a writer because this is how i define poetry for me - i am attempting to aquire a language. christopher _______________________________ In the undergrowth There dwells a Bloath Who feeds upon poets and tea. Luckily, I know this about him While he knows almost nothing of me! - Shel Silverstein ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 18:53:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: dadaists & mamaists Christopher F--that's *really* interesting, about "da" "ma" & your daughter. I had no idea that these sounds were the easiest for kids to make first...I guess I always thought kids acquired them with their parents standing over the crib going, "I'm your dada; I'm your mama." You're right, the issue is more complex than I made it. I was thinking of when I first heard people call my mother "Sharon" on the telephone, how that was an almost shocking event for me...how calling parents by their first names reminds one of their relationships to others besides you. 'Course, one can be(come) aware of these and still call one's mother "Mom" (which I do when I'm talking to mine--for some reason her first name coming from me offends her--shows a "lack of respect" she thinks, which is odd to me: I think it shows more). I'm curious, though---did your daughter automatically call you "da" and her mother "ma"? You say you lit up when she first said "da"--was it clearly a reference to you? Did she call other people, or things, "da"? e ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Emily Lloyd emilyl@mail.erols.com "I know that I know myself/no more than a seed curled in the dark of a winged pod/knows flourishing" --R. Hass ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 16:12:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Filkins Subject: Re: dadaists & mamaists Emily, Her actual first sounds were "da" and she used it specifically for both my wife and i. She did not use sounds to refer to anything besides the two of us until after she had already clearly defined us with these sounds. Shortly after she began using "da" to refer to the two of us she began using "ma" to refer to my wife and then she started switching back and forth and then it finally, after a month to two months, settled into the usual "ma" & "da". Of course by that time she was begining to close the sound by appending the "d" & "m". When i refer to lighting up i am referring to when she had settled into this pattern and i could see in her face that she knew she was using the word to refer to me and she knew that i would respond to it as if named. Of course i realize that we as parents must have given her all sorts of preverbal clues etc. to teach her mom & dad. I'm afraid i would be dishonest if i denied our participation. My only point is that it is such a complex process that it is impossible to declare "mom" or "dad" off limits without going against what seems like a liguistic tendency. christopher I'm curious, though---did your daughter automatically call you "da" and her >mother "ma"? You say you lit up when she first said "da"--was it clearly a >reference to you? Did she call other people, or things, "da"? e > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Emily Lloyd >emilyl@mail.erols.com > >"I know that I know myself/no more than a seed >curled in the dark of a winged pod/knows flourishing" >--R. Hass _______________________________ In the undergrowth There dwells a Bloath Who feeds upon poets and tea. Luckily, I know this about him While he knows almost nothing of me! - Shel Silverstein ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 19:18:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: crowds and power In-Reply-To: <199603162353.SAA17478@mail.erols.com> My youngest brother (seventeen yrs younger) used to when about one and a half or two walk around the kitchen saying "Jordan" which was pleasant until I realized he was attaching this sound to the refrigerator, the dishwasher, the cabinets, and the table. He said "Jordan", pointed to the dishwasher, then walked up to it and bit it. Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 16:25:40 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: Baraka again james perez wrote: >Anything can be twisted into a "bad" thing by the right person. That just >takes the same amount of creativity pointed in a direction that is very >human, but that we like to think is inhuman (I'm human, he's not, therefore >I am not like him...now I feel better). one seder i attended horrified me. the father of the family, a recent convert to hassidism, catechized his seven-year-old son in the following manner: q: "now, xxx, what is traife?" a: "traife is what dogs eat, daddy." q: "what are gentiles, son?" a: "gentiles are people who eat traifes." i said nothing, and have always regretted not getting up and storming out of the house. --- chris ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.16.96 4:25:40 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 16:34:05 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: let's NOT talk about fascists, but ourselves > yes, chris daniels to DISARM the little fascist in us all > is TO LET HIM (gender?) OUT, not to keep it bottled up.... yes, chris stroffolino, to let IT (thanks for that!) into the open where it can be seen for what it is --- the product of encoded fear and superstition. ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.16.96 4:34:05 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 16:50:57 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: p.s. other Sorry I was a little frothy in that last post. I forgot to mention another problem I have with "getting rid of one's homophobia" because of one great gay person one met. That's: is it not possible you might meet one helluva-guy fascist or Nazi? How do we want to decide what we believe? emily --- not only is it possible, it is entirely probable. charm is not dependent on politics. i'm not suggesting that my friend ted "cured me of homophobia." what did happen is that my knowing him allowed me slowly begin my transcendence of the fear i felt abt homosexuals --- i had very good reason to fear them --- i had been raped. nothing's instant: there's no sudden acceptance; it's a long process which i don't think shld ever end. i believe that causing another human being to feel pain is undesirable (if unavoidable at times). that's my yardstick for deciding what to believe. sometimes i think the only thing worth believing in is Compassion. chris ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.16.96 4:50:57 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 17:14:01 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: let's NOT talk about fascists, but ourselves i gotta say i'm w/ luigi-bob on the NAMBLA thing. i may be totally wrong-headed abt this, but to judge from my entire 40 years of experience, an adult can get a kid to do nearly anything, given the right circumstances. i've not responded to emily's post til now because i cldn't see past my own history of being abused and didn't want to lash out. i don't feel hatred towards the NAMBLAites, i just don't think they're being very honest, and have constructed a VERY SEDUCTIVE MASK for themselves when they say that they are seeking to empower children (not young adults, children). i agree entirely that children need to be allowed the exact same freedom of choice/thought etc as adults, but a 12-year-old kid is simply not the same as a 19-year-old kid. lowering the age of consent is not the issue here, i don't think. neither is the empowerment of chldren. what is at issue is a child's right to live and grow AS A CHILD among adults. i mean there's a limit ... chris ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.16.96 4:37:40 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 02:16:55 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jms Subject: Re: ghost titles Station Hill at one time was going publish a book by Duncan (I can't remember title) but it got pulled. I think it might be because he died before it was published (it was several years late at the time) and Duncan's mss., and the ability to publish them, were then limited. But come to think about it I think Station Hill might qualify as the press with the most ghost books. Juliana Spahr >Don't know if these would count, but > >I recall seeing Thomas Pynchon's VINELAND listed in a prepublication >*Books in Print* as *Vineland, Volume 1." > >And wasn't Pynchon supposed to be writing a Civil War novel? > >Cheers, >David >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >David Kellogg Duke University >kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program >(919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 >FAX (919) 684-6277 > > There is some excitement in one corner, > but most of the ghosts are merely shaking their heads. > > -- Thomas Kinsella > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 21:16:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: Re: NAMBLA At 05:14 PM 3/16/96 PST, chris daniels wrote: >i may be totally wrong-headed abt this, but to judge >from my entire 40 years of experience, an adult can get >a kid to do nearly anything, given the right circumstances. An adult can get an *adult* to do nearly anything, given the right circumstances. It seems to me that being raped should make one resent/fear rapists/a rape culture, not gay men black men white men latino men asian men, or, in my case, policemen. I never meant to downplay the fact that yes, NAMBLA members are men who want to sleep with boys. "Sweet boy, gimme yr ass," etc. I stand by my defense, though. Note, they have created an organization/forum in which to discuss this (cross-generational sex). Why create such a thing if all you're really concerned with is lurking in bathrooms near boy scout meetings? I ask semi-rhetorically; I'm not really sure any of us could benefit from further discussion of NAMBLA. So hows about them poems/Mets? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Emily "Yes, it's true, I kind of LIKE Camille Paglia" Lloyd emilyl@mail.erols.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 22:06:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: avant-garde re charles alexander's comment abt mei-mei, that someone called her work "anti-academic." typical minnesota. esp if it was someone from my department. they know i teach her, they think that i'm a yahoo, hence, rather than listening to her poetry, they say something that proves their inability to listen. humph! charles, tell me more about that event; it's one of those i wish i could've been there for.--maria d ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 21:20:12 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: dadaists & mamaists Thanks to Emily for getting the discussion on children going, and to Christopher for pointing out that saying "ma" and "da" is a rather complex affair involving general tendencies of speakers of English, nonverbal clues by parents, etc. But I would also like to say that parenting in general is quite complex. As a father of two girls (6 & 2 years old) so far I haven't ever said "because I'm your father," but in fact there have been several times where if I hadn't exerted parental authority of one kind or another, a child would have been hurt physically or otherwise, or done something to hurt another. In some ways an adult's actions are better informed than a child's, of that age, anyway -- which is not to imply a disrespect for the child's opinions, imagination, or intellect. I also have learned many things from my children. But we don't live on a commune, and children pick up much from various places. Up to age one or so I read them Gertrude Stein and Jackson Mac Low and Chaucer and a lot of other things they couldn't read to themselves. But after a while they would rather hear Frog & Toad, or other books they found out about in various ways. And while I have had conversations where the 6 year old has expressed political ideas, I also think it's perfectly fine for her not to be expected to do so. In some ways the world inhabited by children in school and pre-school makes them aware of politics in complex ways daily, probably moreso than many adults in the world/words in which they circulate daily. We don't need to encourage "childish"-ness, nor do we need to encourage growing up before one's time. And what does that mean? It probably differs with every child. We never gave our children certain kinds of dolls (Barbies being one of them) for a long time, but grandparents and others did, and in some ways I think it's important for them to know about such things in the world. We decided banning such things was not the point, rather letting our children make their own decisions about them, and talking with them, was the point. Being a parent makes one confront one's abilities and one's limitations every day, usually several times a day. I would consider it absolutely cowardly to deny one's duty to be a parent -- but I do consider it necessary to constantly redefine what that means. charles ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 21:54:59 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: avant-garde >re charles alexander's comment abt mei-mei, that someone called her work >"anti-academic." typical minnesota. esp if it was someone from my >department. they know i teach her, they think that i'm a yahoo, hence, >rather than listening to her poetry, they say something that proves their >inability to listen. humph! charles, tell me more about that event; it's one >of those i wish i could've been there for.--maria d > > The first event of a 4-day residency (March 6 - 10) in the Twin Cities by Myung Mi Kim & Mei-mei Berssenbrugge was a "fireside chat" by the poets at Asian American Renaissance (ably directed by Valerie Lee, who with me first conceived of this residency). Perhaps the primary difficulty of the residency was present there as well as at the other events, just that there were clearly very few people at these events who knew the writers' work at all, therefore a need to introduce it. Thus both Myung & Mei-mei read a bit, Myung even from pieces widely separated in time, in order to convey something of poetic growth. The talk was then mostly about senses of space in the work, but this was interpreted in some ways quite differently by each of them. Mei-mei spoke of facing the literal horizon in the desert where she lives, and how this relates to her line, breath, etc. But she also talked about her poem "Chinese Space," and how her poems of China are half what others told her (she left Beijing, where she was born, at 1 year old), half made up by her, but that her philosophical sensibilities, she feels, are very informed by Chinese ideas. When Myung spoke there was more of a sense of a conceptual space, but one which she described as a body, but always a body with fissures, disjunctiveness. Mei-mei spoke of her commitment, at 21 years old or so, which has served her for nearly 30 years, of writing in sentences and of her writing being "beautiful," a commitment to beauty, as she put it. Myung had more of a sense of wanting to disrupt whatever beauty may be possible. (and my memory may be putting words in both their mouths) One gained a sense of both of their relationships to their Asian heritage, and to the English/American language, and of how both of those relationships have a role in both their subject and the forms present and created in their work. Myung was 9 years old when she left Korea. The following day I led the first hour of a workshop with them at the University of Minnesota Creative Writing program. I displayed books and spoke of developing a sense of physical space from their work, of literally trying to make the spaciality created by their work into a physical form, or, perhaps more accurately, to find corresponding forms in type, book structure, paper, etc. Mei-mei wondered if I was thereby destroying the "illusional" space. But no, it's more like giving it some kind of physical dimension, perhaps adding to it, but not in any sense destroying it. It was odd being in this circle of creative writing faculty and students. I made a comment, at the very beginning, about breaking the circle and asking people to get up and go to where books were displayed (including one book by Mei-Mei I made in 1990 which was fully unfolded to be nearly 14 feet long). And absolutely noone got up. I think perhaps I truly transgressed something by breaking that circle, and I realized that I'm entirely unfamiliar with whatever kind of energy exists in a writing workshop class. An hour later, at the end of my part of the workshop, everyone did get up and there was more animation. I had to leave after that for other commitments and I can't comment on the remainder of the poets' workshop, or its continuation the next day. They also gave a workshop on Saturday March 9 at Asian American Renaissance which I did not attend. The reading they gave at Minnesota Center for Book Arts on Friday March 8 was marvelous. Mei-mei reads in a persistent, quiet voice, altogether what one might expect from reading her work over the past decade or so. Some sense of space being so linear, yet also so full, barely room to breathe. Myung followed her with a reading which was also strong on the sense of enunciated space, but, as comments earlier in the week had touched on, a space much more divided, uneven. Both readings were powerful. This is just about the last event which will be held at Minnesota Center for Book Arts which I had anything to do with organizing or envisioning, having left there as director (although still spend a good deal of time there on one book project or another or in teaching) more than 7 months ago now. In that sense it was both very pleasing and a little bit awkward for me, having more sense that the leadership (board) of that organization didn't really know what it had in this residency -- and that I was ready to take that organization to places it just wasn't ready to go. Sorry if this sounds a little too self-satisfied, actually it feels a little sad. But it gave me a new and different glimpse of a place which has meant much to me over the last three years. But back to Myung & Mei-mei, they had good audiences at each of the events and people seemed genuinely interested in their work. I only wish more such events were occurring in the Twin Cities. and thanks for asking, maria. I got closer to the U-Minnesota English Department than I ever have before during these events, and I really missed your not being there. I didn't hear anybody call you a yahoo, but if you're willing to ya & hoo (and I know you are), then I think they need more like you. charles ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 20:18:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: switzerland You wrote: > >What are you reading these days. > >--Jd > Charles Borkhuis' Proximity (Stolen Arrows) Ilya Kutik's Ode on Visiting the Belosaraisk Spit on the Sea of Azov, trans. by Kit Robinson Swoon Rocket by Bill Luoma (who can tell me which DC bookstore that back cover photo was taken in??) They're all great books. I knew the last two would be because I've been reading/enjoying their work for ages (Kutik as well as Kit and Maz). Borkhuis is a really great new addition to my reading list. There's a bounce in his line that reminds me of the best of John Godfrey or Ted Greenwald or maybe even Tom Raworth, a sense of surrealism that feels lived rather than bookish and a great eye throughout. What amazes me is that Borkhuis is only a year or so younger than I am and this appears to be his second book or thereabouts. What has he been doing all this time? Is there an archive of material waiting to be released? Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 09:03:00 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: Bury Fascist Ezra Pound In-Reply-To: Has anyone on the list read Wilhelm Reich? He was dealing with exactly these things. He was and still is very controversial--I think the only American to have his books burned by the government. The most radical activist can be a fascist to the kids at home. Where does it start? Gab. On Fri, 15 Mar 1996, chris daniels wrote: > but, ada, fascism didn't just suddenly spring into existence because > of the minds of the "geniuses" you'd like to eradicate --- didn't stalin > and mao love to rewrite history? --- it was and is a product of several > thousand years of human history. don't you think it wld be better to try to > undertsand why fascism exists instead of sweeping it under the carpet where > it can fester and erupt again? the more we look at fascism, the more we > expose it, the less of a chance it has of gripping our lives. bt we can not > simply point a finger and accuse: we have to do our best to understand, > even if that understanding may be very painful. because ultimately > don't we have to examine our very souls for the seeds of fascism? > > yrs --- > > chris > > ------------------------------------- > christopher daniels 3.16.96 12:07:56 am > > q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they > said anything goes?" > --- charles wourinen (?) > > a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." > > --- george clinton > > snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa > voice: 510.524.5972 > http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:07:41 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: voting on a new usenet group... all: this is from another list, sans original headers... i thought it might be appropriate to post here on poetics... i've decided, with some hesitation, to vote 'no'... my hesitation owing only to my concerns about first amendment issues---BUT voting is established practice for creating usenet groups... ergo the internet decides for itself on the basis of appeal to democratic (voting) practices, w/o intervention in the form of censorship... this touches on the question of how best to deal with fascism etc... anyway... joe > A group of neo-nazis are trying to get a new Usenet Newsgroup >set-up so they can get their message of hate out to young people using the >Internet. EACH OF YOU HAS ONE VOTE when it comes to creating a new Usenet >group (all you need is an e-mail account to vote). > We have nearly 1500 members in our group. We can send an >effective message by all voting NO. > Do _not_ vote twice - that would constitute voting fraud. > Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 18 Mar 1996. > > HOW TO VOTE: > ------------ > >Send E-MAIL (posts to a newsgroup are invalid) to: > > music-vote@sub-rosa.com > >This is an impartial, third-party vote taker. >Just replying to this message will NOT work. >Check the address before you mail your vote. Your mail message >should contain one and only one of the following vote statements: > > I vote YES on rec.music.white-power > I vote NO on rec.music.white-power > >I REALLY HOPE YOU VOTE NO! > >If your mail software does not indicate your real name, please also >include the following statement and add your name (on the same line). > > Voter name: > >Vote counting is automated. Failure to follow these directions may >mean that your vote does not get counted. If you do not receive an >acknowledgment of your vote within three days contact the votetaker >about the problem. It's your responsibility to make sure your vote >is registered correctly. > >If you would like more detailed information on why you should vote no, >check out http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca on the World Wide Web, or contact >Ken McVay, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca > > This message is not meant to represent an official usenet > Call for Votes. An official copy of the Call for Votes can > be found in news.groups on Usenet. > Thank you, Avi > >------------ Forwarded Message ends here ------------ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:38:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Jaeger Subject: Re: Nourbese Philip In-Reply-To: <01I2ES9F1FMA985RWA@msuvx2.memphis.edu> On Sat, 16 Mar 1996, Paul Naylor wrote: _She Tries Her Tongue, Her Silence Softly Breaks_ (Ragweed, > 1989), which won the Casa de las Americas Prize in 1988, is her best work, and > there is one poem in particular that engages Pound directly. It's in a series > called "The Question of Language is the Answer to Power" (which was also > published in _Hambone #8). Here's an excerpt: > > word it off > speech it off > word in my word > word in your word > I going word my word > begin > the in of beginning _OO as in how did they 'lose' a language._ > empires _oo as in 'look' at the spook > erect with the new > "Make it new" > he said > "Make it new" > floundering in the old > > Paul: this is an appropriate quotation. It seems to me that there's a good deal of tension between Nourbese Philip's legitimation of what she calls the autonomous "i-mage," or "irreducible essence" of writing as something other than the word, and her simultaneous legit. of subjectivity as a construction of language. Her theory (published in the intro to _She Tries Her Tongue_) is metaphysical to the extent that it affirms presence, the author as magical source of the poem, yet it simultaneously affirms language as the site for subjectivity, the absent author. Instead of a rigid binary between text and essence, she presents both text and essence--two seemingly paradoxical positions that are evoked but left in suspension. This tension is played out in her writing, and to my mind it moves her poetry away from the type of culturally assimilated models of diversity criticised by Charles Bernstein (I see grandma on the hill / next to the memories I can never recapture). Peter Jaeger ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 16:16:14 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Subject: Re: switzerland In-Reply-To: Pablo Neruda, CANTO GENERAL trans Jack Schmitt Simon Pettit, Selected Poems Michael Palmer, At Passages Stephen Kotkin, Magnetic Mountain: Stalinism as Civilization (history of founding and early years of Magnitogorsk Rebecca West, Black Lamb and Grey Falcon Alice Notley, Close to me & Closer...(The Language of Heaven) Jon Stallworthy, Life of Louis MacNeice ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 22:18:58 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: FW: Re: NAMBLA --- On Sat, 16 Mar 1996 21:16:48 -0500 Emily Lloyd wrote: >At 05:14 PM 3/16/96 PST, chris daniels wrote: >>i may be totally wrong-headed abt this, but to judge >>from my entire 40 years of experience, an adult can get >>a kid to do nearly anything, given the right circumstances. > >An adult can get an *adult* to do nearly anything, given the right >circumstances. > >It seems to me that being raped should make one resent/fear rapists/a rape >culture, not gay men black men white men latino men asian men, or, in my >case, policemen. > >I never meant to downplay the fact that yes, NAMBLA members are men who want >to sleep with boys. "Sweet boy, gimme yr ass," etc. I stand by my defense, >though. Note, they have created an organization/forum in which to discuss >this (cross-generational sex). Why create such a thing if all you're really >concerned with is lurking in bathrooms near boy scout meetings? I ask >semi-rhetorically; I'm not really sure any of us could benefit from further >discussion of NAMBLA. emily --- this is extremely inflammatory important stuff --- i'd like to wait on it a bit because right now i couldn't be reasonable. i agree w/ you and disagree w/ you everywhere above. i want very much to get back to you on this, but will take the time to think it all through, sort it out. later --- chris >So hows about them poems/Mets? > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Emily "Yes, it's true, I kind of LIKE Camille Paglia" Lloyd >emilyl@mail.erols.com > -----------------End of Original Message----------------- ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.16.96 10:18:58 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 00:47:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: switzerland Ron, Charles Borkhuis has been involved with theater lo these many years, I believe in all guises-- acting, writing, directing, tho there cld well be a trunk of poetry to be hauled out as well. Don't have more details in terms of what/where the theater. He just read down here w/ Heather Fuller (DC poet to watch for). I'm curious to see this photo on _Swoon Rocket_ -- is it from the C=O=M=P=U=T=E=R=L=A=N=D reading? Re J's what are you reading?-- well into Ralph Maud's _Charles Olson's Reading: A Biography_ -- it's so thorough it's quite mad & therefore very satisfying. Now we need a bio of Zorn via his record collection. Also looking at Leslie Scalapino's _The Front Matter, Dead Souls_, always her work it's fine. Also new Blackwell book _Rethinking CLR James_ includes Stuart Hall interview w/ James & good piece by Andrew Ross. & spent some time in Areas/Lights/Heights, there's simply noone at all like him. Anyone seen this rumored new Roof Books Raworth Selected since '84, want it want it. Also I have to admit I've spent a bit of time with new Rod Smith _In Memory of My Theories_ which arrived yesterday in blue & in gray. --R ------------------------------------------------- You wrote: > >What are you reading these days. > >--Jd > Charles Borkhuis' Proximity (Stolen Arrows) Ilya Kutik's Ode on Visiting the Belosaraisk Spit on the Sea of Azov, trans. by Kit Robinson Swoon Rocket by Bill Luoma (who can tell me which DC bookstore that back cover photo was taken in??) They're all great books. I knew the last two would be because I've been reading/enjoying their work for ages (Kutik as well as Kit and Maz). Borkhuis is a really great new addition to my reading list. There's a bounce in his line that reminds me of the best of John Godfrey or Ted Greenwald or maybe even Tom Raworth, a sense of surrealism that feels lived rather than bookish and a great eye throughout. What amazes me is that Borkhuis is only a year or so younger than I am and this appears to be his second book or thereabouts. What has he been doing all this time? Is there an archive of material waiting to be released? Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 21:50:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: more on Pound: query for Jerry R. > It is interesting to consider too how the >most telling impact of his work -- the most vital influence -- was precisely >on poets who politically, morally, might have been at the greatest distance >from it. I mean particulary in my generation and beyond. I take it that >this is Pound's legacy also -- in the strange way that these things work. > >Jerome Rothenberg Jerry-- (or anyone!) any speculations as to why this is so? (that may lead us back into the old, trashed form-and-its-[indeterminate]-politics thread, but perhaps from a usefully oblique angle). best, Tenney Nathanson ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 09:16:39 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: let's NOT talk about fascists, but ourselves In-Reply-To: <199603161621.KAA23503@charlie.acc.iit.edu> On Sat, 16 Mar 1996, Joe Amato wrote: > and yeah, we each have that little jack-boot fascist inside someplace... > mebbe the point is finding ways not to let him out... > > joe > Or maybe ways to let Hir out in a setting where s/he can't do any to the world damage. Maybe damage to some pillows or something. Somehow, stopping up the pipeline always seems to lead to an explosion down the line. Gab. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 14:15:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Pound & Man at Yale I wrote a follow-up piece to "Pounding Fascism" (which is in _A Poetics_) called "Pound and the Poetry of Today". It was published in _The Yale Review_ in 1986 (I don't have the exact citation handy). The speech was originally presented at the Pound Centennial at Yale: an occasion at which at I was made to feel (and no doubt also made myself feel) very unwelcome. I was just about the youngest person invited to speak, and the the only Jewish one; it didn't seem a coincidence that I was also the only person to raise the question of Pound's fascism at this occasion. The spirit of the supposedly academic event was set by the Pound's daughter asking us to observe several minutes of silence in honor of the anniversary of her father's death, which coincided with the Yale event. In keeping with this reverential spirit, the tone of the event was solemn and studiously respectful. In contrast, my speech would have seemed boisterous and structurally irreverant; though insofar as this was so it was was oddly more in the mood of the putative subject. While I was excluded from some of the social occasions set up for the participants (for example the lunch just before my talk), I was invited to a formal dinner at one of those Yale halls filled with dusty oil paintings of important Yale men (fortunately, Susan Howe, who was living in nearby Guilford, came to the dinner with me). This was the sort of occasion where you'd hear people murmuring to one another, "you know, despite it all, maybe Pound was right about social credit" (and maybe some other things too). Creepy. The Yale Review had written to me saying they wanted to publish works from the proceedings. After the event, at which it was made clear to me that I should not have spoken the way I did (not a new problem for me however), I wasn't surprised that Yale Review turned the piece down. While they may have had other reasons to reject it, since it was advocating an approach to poetry antipathetic to their aesthetic agenda, I couldn't help but interpret it as an extension of the reception I had gotten at the centennial. I made my views known to them and they reluctantly relented, agreeing to publish the work not as an article, but as "commentary" which meant the back of the ... book and in a smaller point size. After insisting on the necessity and value of reading Pound in terms of his fascism, my speech begins with a discussion of Jerome Rothenberg's anthologies as a counter to the Core Curriculum mania (then in full swing), which I suggest is a logical extension of Pound's ideas of master texts. (Here I distinguish between Pound's "panculturalism" and "decentered multiculturalism".) I go on to differentiate Pound's desire for "montage" (the use of contrasting images toward the goal of one unifying theme) from his practice of "collage" (the use of different textual elements without recourse to an overall unifying idea). The piece ends with a discussion of Jackson Mac Low's great book _Words nd ends from Ez_, which it still seems to me is a fundamental resource for any consideration of Pound. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 09:27:15 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: kids without godparents In-Reply-To: <199603161731.MAA05328@mail.erols.com> I agree with all you say eryque about raising kids as much as possible as equals. What I would say though, is that we stand a much better chance of achieving this in some sort of communal, village, extended family, whatever setting than in a nuclear family. In a nf, everyone is pretty much forced together, whatever mood they're in, however tired they are, ill, overwhelmed. Kids need lots and lots of people they can go to, lots of different views on the world, people who can listen when their parents are done in or being jerks. I had tremendous good intentions (as I'm sure all parents have) when I began this parenting, but I've had to lower my perfection quota being in a nf (where was that commune, anyway? that's much how I'd prefer to do things). I recognize in myself daily this potential and sometimes actual fascist. Yuk. Gab. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:27:27 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: switzerland heidegger: being & time II.1 jean amery: at the mind's limits PAUL CELAN grimal's history of ancient egypt bob brown: 1450-1950 heidegger is, well, heidegger. it's the older translation. jean amery was a viennese jew --- studied philosophy --- survived gestapo torture and then auschwitz --- he and primo levi were in (sometimes not so) slight contention i'm obsessed w/ paul celan these days. i've been familiar w/ his work for quite some time, but joris' BREATHTURN knocks me out thanks ron silliman for reminding me to read bob brown's glorious book once again! ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.17.96 11:27:27 am q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:49:18 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: Pound & Man at Yale charles (or anybody) --- is mac low's book still in print? ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.17.96 11:49:18 am q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 07:52:50 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: avant-garde one more word: AMBITIOUS Greenberg uses it: "AMBITIOUS PAIN TING" Title:" 3 AMBITIOUS POETS AT THE MILLENNIUM" Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 09:54:57 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: dadaists & mamaists In-Reply-To: <199603162353.SAA17478@mail.erols.com> My little boy called everyone "ada" for a long time. Both the kids call us very much whatever comes into their minds, not all of it complimentary by a long shot! :-) Gab. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 07:59:29 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Bury Fascist Ezra Pound > At 11:36 PM 3/13/96 +0200, Ada Aharoni wrote: > > >What I suggest is -- just bury the guy and forget about him, alongside his "genius mates" Hitler and Mussolini. > Steve Carll answered: > It would be nice if things were this simple, wouldn't it? > > Hi! It could be that simple if we make it so. One of the methods I've used is just refuse to teach him to my students, and have stopped reading him a long time ago. From my point of view and that of many of my colleagues and students, as well as poets\critics around the world - Ezra Pound has already been buried alongside his "genius" friends, Hitler and Mussolini. Please don't resurrect him! He's dangerous to our world! Let's read Wilfred Owen instead, perhaps we would bring our world one inch closer to the world beyond war he dreamed about. Ada Aharoni Yeah, let's meet Fascism with Moral Censorship. Slit some throats, shed some blood. Yeah. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 15:07:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "John E. Matthias" Subject: Pound & Fascism, etc. I don't know...Ric Caddel quotes an eloquent letter from Bunting to Pound that couldn't be improved on. But then Bunting also wrote of the Cantos: "There are the Alps.... / you will have to go a long way round / if you want to avoid them." Wendy Battin says "I don't think it's safe to ignore this man." It's also not possible. How can someone choose not to read "The River-Merchant's Wife," "Hugh Selwyn Mauberley," Canto 2, Canto 47, Canto 81, etc. I've been reading Milan Kundera's _Testaments Betrayed_ these last couple of days & found some good things about the trials, in every sense, of writers in our century. In the Chapter called "Paths in the Fog" Kundera's focus is Kafka. On pp. 225-240, however, he begins to generalize with a rather surprising paragraph on Orwell's _1984_: "The pernicious influence of Orwell's novel resides in its implacable reduction of a reality to its political dimension alone, and in its reduction of that dimension to what is exemplarily negative about it. I refuse to forgive this reduction on the grounds that it was useful as propaganda in the struggle against totalitarian evil. For that evil is, precisely, the reduction of life to politics and of politics to propaganda. So despite its intentions, Orwell's novel itself joins in the totalitarian spirit, the spirit of propaganda. It reduces (and teaches others to reduce) the life of a hated society to the simple listing of its crimes." A little later he goes on like this, reaching back again to Kafka: "Tribunal: this does not signify the juridical institution intended for punishing people who have violated the laws of a state; the tribunal (or court) in Kafka's sense is a power that judges, that judges because it is a power; its power and nothing but its power is what confers legitimacy on the tribunal... "The trial's memory is colossal, but it is a very specific memory, which could be defined as _the forgetting of everything not a crime_. The trial thus reduces the defendant's biography to _criminography_; Victor Farias (whose _Heidegger and Nazism_is a classic example of criminography) locates the roots of the philosopher's Nazism in his early youth, without the least concern for locating the roots of his genius; to punish someone accused of ideological deviations, Communist tribunals would put _all_ his work on the index (thus, for instance, the ban on Lukacs and Sartre in Communist countries covered even their pro-Communist writings). "Why are our streets still named for Picasso, Aragon, Eluard, Sartre?" a Paris paper asked in a 1991 post-Communist intoxication; it's tempting to answer: because of the value of their works! But in his trial against Europe, Sartre said exactly what values mean now: "our cherished values are losing their wings; looked at closely, every one of them is blood-stained"; values stained are values no longer; the spirit of the trial is the reduction of everything to morality; it is absolute nihilism in regard to craft, art, works..." "For nearly seventy years Europe lived under a trial-regime. From among the great artists of the century, how many defendants...I shall mention only those who had some significance for me. Starting in the twenties, there were those hounded by the tribunal of revolutionary morality: Bunin, Andreyev, Meyerhold, Pilnyak, Veprik (a Jewish-Russian musician, a forgotten martyr of modern art; he dared to defend Shostakovich's opera against Stalin's condemnation; they stuck him in a camp; I remember his piano compositions, which my father liked to play), Mandelstam, Halas (the poet was adored by Ludvik in _The Joke_; hounded after his death for gloominess seen as counterrevolutionary). Then there were the quarry of the Nazi tribunal: Broch (he gazes at me, pipe in mouth, from a photo on my worktable), Schoenberg, Werfel, Brecht, Thomas and Heinrich Mann, Musil, Vancura (the Czech writer I most love), Bruno Schulz. The totalitarian empires and their bloody trials have disappeared, but the _spirit of the trial_lingers as a legacy, and that is what is now settling scores. Thus the trial strikes at: those accused of pro-Nazi sympathies: Hamsun, Heidegger (all Czech dissident thought, Patocka most notably, is indebted to him), Richard Strauss, Gottfried Benn, von Doderer, Drieu la Rochelle, Celine (in 1992, a half century after the war, an indignant official refused to designate his house a historical monument); supporters of Mussolini: Malaparte, Marinetti, Ezra Pound (the American military kept him, like an animal, in a cage for months under the blazing Italian sun; in his Reykjavik studio, the painter Kristjan Davidsson showed me a large photo of him: 'For fifty years it has gone with me everywhere I go'); the Munich appeasers: Giono, "Alain, Morand, Montherlant, St.-John Perse (a member of the French delegation to the Munich conference, he was closely involved in the humiliation of my native country); then, the Communists and their sympathizers: Mayakovsky (who today remembers his love poetry and his amazing metaphors?), Gorky, Shaw, Brecht (who is thereby undergoing his second trial), Eluard (that exterminating angel who used to decorate his signature with a drawing of crossed swords), Picasso, Leger, Aragon (how can I forget that he offered me his hand at a difficult time in my life?), Nezval (his self-portrait in oils is on the wall of my bookshelves), Sartre. Some of these people are undergoing a double trial, first accused of betraying the revolution, then accused for services they had rendered earlier: Gide (in the old Communist countries, the symbol of all evil), Shostakovich (to atone for his difficult music, he manufactured rubbish for the regime's needs; he maintained that for the history of art a worthless thing is null and void; he didn't know that for the tribunal it is the worthlessness itself that counts), Breton, Malraux (accused yesterday of having betrayed revolutionary ideals, accusable tomorrow of having held them), Tibor Dery (some works of this Communist writer, who was imprisoned after the Budapest massacre, were for me the first great literary, nonpropagandistic reply to Stalinism). The most exquisite flower of the century, the modern art of the twenties and thirties, was even triply accused: first by the Nazi tribunal as _Entartete Kunst_, "degenerate art"; then by the Communist tribunal as "elitist formalism alien to the people"; and finally by the triumphant capitalist tribunal as art steeped in revolutionary illusions. "How is it possible that the Soviet Russian chauvinist, the maker of versified propaganda, he whom Stalin himself called "the greatest poet of our epoch"--how is it possible that Mayakovsky is nevertheless a tremendous poet, one of the greatest? Given her capacity for enthusiasm, her emotional tears that blur her view of the outside world, wasn't lyric poetry--that untouchable goddess--doomed one fateful day to become the beautifier of atrocities, their "warmhearted maidservant" (Baudelaire)?....To be a true poet and at the same time to support (like Mayakovsky) an incontestable horror is a scandal--in the sense of an unjustifiable, unacceptable event, one that contradicts logic and yet is real. We are all unconsciously tempted to dodge scandals, to behave as though they don't exist. That is why we prefer to say that the great cultural figures tainted with the horrors of our century were bastards; but it isn't so; if only out of vanity, aware that they are seen, looked at, judged, artists and philosophers are anxious to be decent and courageous, to be on the right side, to be right. That makes the scandal still more intolerable, more inexplicable. If we don't want to leave this century just as stupid as we entered it, we must abandon the facile moralism of the trial and think about this scandal, think it through to the bottom, even if this should lead us to question anew all our certainties about man as such. "But the conformism of public opinion is a force that sets itself up as a tribunal, and the tribunal is not there to waste time over ideas, it is there to conduct the investigations for trials. And as the abyss of time widens between judges and defendants, it is always a lesser experience that is judging a greater. The immature sit in judgment on Celine's erring ways without realizing that because of these erring ways, Celine's novels contain existential knowledge that, if they were to understand it, could make them more adult. Because therein lies the power of culture: it redeems horror by transforming it into existential wisdom. If the spirit of the trial succeeds in annihilating this century's culture, nothing will remain of us but a memory of its atrocities sung by a chorus of children." I didn't mean to type out so much; nor do I agree with everything Kundera says. But this is certainly all worth thinking about in the context of the continuing trial of poets like Ezra Pound. John Matthias ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:03:22 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: voting on a new usenet group... joe --- this is a very tough issue --- i wld have voted no myself, also w/ misgivings --- freedom of speech is exactly what it means but does free speech include the right to call me a subhuman kike to make a frightened and confused teenager cry on her way into an abortion clinic to butt in on a gay/lesbian/bisexual chat group w/ things like: you faggots are gonna burn in hell ???????????????? i was waiting for the bus in downtown oakland a few years back. there was a right-to-lifer standing there w/ a megaphone and a large placard covered w/ photographs of an aborted fetus. after a few minutes of enduring his haranguing, an elderly black woman started shouting at him: "you satan's helper! you satan's helper!" at that the crowd at the bus stop joined in and the guy had to leave. so maybe i wld actually vote yes and then spend a few minutes every day sending them posts in wch i wld calmly and as irrefutably as possible call them on their shit (with my signature carefully removed, of course!) ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.17.96 12:03:22 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:19:28 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: avant-garde how abt 3 NONSTOP SWINGING PROTEAN MOTHERFUCKERS HEADING FOR THE 3RD ON THE GOOD FOOT ? ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.17.96 12:19:28 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:26:07 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: Bury Fascist Ezra Pound tony --- right on yeah we'll knife em stack em up n watch em burn n then we'll feel so good abt ourselves, won't we? ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.17.96 12:26:07 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen (?) a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:44:17 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: kids without godparents In-Reply-To: On Sun, 17 Mar 1996, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > I agree with all you say eryque oooops! Sorry emily. I misread your (for eryque) as (from eryque). Gab. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:47:38 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: this list I just want to say that I am proud and umble to be on this list. What a wonderful, compassionate, thoughtful crowd dealing with explosive topics. Gab. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:51:25 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: avant-garde how abt 3 NONSTOP SWINGING PROTEAN MOTHERFUCKERS HEADING FOR THE 3RD ON THE GOOD FOOT ? ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.17.96 12:19:28 pm another three or four lines of title and you would really screw up the library data-entry machinery Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:33:54 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: dadaists & mamaists i don't have kids myself, and my parents were none the best, to say the least, but i think you all agree that it's much more important to show yr kids yr own tolerance self-respect honesty compassion, all that good stuff, than it is to worry abt what they call you. i'm not criticizing you guys at all, please don't think so, and i have no arguments w/ any of you --- still less am i accusing you of ANYTHING ---just want to put in my (uninformed) 2 cents re yr very complex courageous beautiful utterly necessary (to me frightening!) lives as parents re nuclear family: freud (i have a feeling i'll get slammed for this) said humanity will never be happy until it realizes that the family is it's worst enemy how's that for a can of worms? ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.17.96 12:33:55 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:57:21 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerry Rothenberg Subject: Re: Pound & Fascism, etc. Bravo John Matthias and Milan Kundera. Bravo Ezra Pound without whose poetry ours likely wouldn't be. (Brooding on this for a while: the rush to condemnation. More later, as it comes.) Jerome Rothenberg ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 14:59:08 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: voting on a new usenet group... chris, yeah, i hear you... what turned it for me was simply this: that this is in fact not a censorship issue exactly, that usenet was set up to permit formation of new news groups in accordance with things participatory and democratic... now i understand how consensus is often abused, how democracy can become tyranny... nevertheless there's all sortsa precedent here, and no doubt the neo-nazis have and will continue to have net outlets in any case... so mebbe this goes back indirectly to that remark i made to the effect of 'not letting the fascist' out, and subsequent glosses by you, chris s., gab (i was aware btw of my choice of pronoun---was merely using a 'him' for a change in an obviously negative context)... seems to me we can't 'bottle up' the neo-nazis, and in this respect the fascists will have their say (perhaps even the fascists in us)... now we may attempt to disarm same etc.... but this is no reason to encourage the fuckers either... anyway, i hear you... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 16:01:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: Bury Fascist Ezra Pound chris sd: >was it raymond federman said abt beckett: > >the more sam rubs our noses in the shit the more we love it > >by quoting wch i mean to say (along w/ ron, eryque, joe, alan, >wendy, emily, all us chris's and EVERYBODY else and i mean EVERYBODY): > >the more you look, the more you learn. the more you learn, the more >you know. the more you know, the more you can change IF YOU HAVE THE >CAPACITY to change. > >olson: > >what does not change/ is the will to change > >i wld change that "does" to "must" >for what it's worth i realize this is a little behind the game now, but anyway: yay chris! damn straight! eryque ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 16:01:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: learning about the other: forgive buut never forget. james's comments seem just about right on the money. (been a lot of good comments of late, sometimes i think we're all loopier'n a bunch of loons! :-) i grew up (am growing) in (one of) the first generations to be taught to believe that everyone's okay, and by people that really think so. the problem is that we were almost never taught how to get to a point where we all get along. we were/are taught to basically ignore stereotypes and then everything will be groovy. the suburb i grew up in was almost all white, there was a section of town (past the tracks) where almost all the black kids went home to, i don't remember any hispanic people around. somehow living in such a lily-white world we were supposed to learn to think of everyone on the same level. every time i turn around i find misogynist, patriarchal, racist, and other bigoted nastyist tendancies in myself, and i think they're in most people who look inside far enough. i've been lucky enough to keep these tendancies inside most of the time, keep them from hurting others or myself. i'm glad for that, but there are times when i wish these tendancies were more towards the surface, where i could deal with them more easily. so now the problem is, how do i (we) get to a point where we truly are groovy? what do we do with pound after we read him? if no one finds a solid point here, don't worry, neither do i. i've been doing a lot of soul-searching lately, if i knew what i was saying, it wouldn't be that much of a search, would it? erYque ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 13:01:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Imamu Redo In-Reply-To: <199603170524.AAA14122@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> let me try this quickly -- 1) NOTHING I have said suggests deleting or slighting any period of Baraka's work -- In fact, one of my complaints about the new selected, aired in this space some months ago, was its leaving out of such texts as _Spirit reach_ ;;; What I am asking is that we read and critique ALL OF IT -- 2) please read that Derrida on F.N. as I can't summarize here -- BUT Please also note: the fact that a text can have infinite meanings DOES NOT mean it can be made to mean anything -- If I believed that I would no longer see much purpose to writing;;; If it were so easy for Nazis, for example, to twist ANYTHING to mean what they wanted it to, they might as easily have twisted somebody else,,,, what is needed is a reading precisely of the mechanisms by which F.N.'s texts can be supportive of both Nazi and antifascist readings -- This is not a relativist argument -- It is possible to examine competing readings within the historical and political contexts of their production without simp[ly throwing up one's hands and saying that "bad" people can twist any text to mean anything ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:05:57 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Ed Fallon Someone on dada (yes, I am an addict. I subscribed) sent copy of the speech by Iowa Rep. Ed Fallon given in Feb. on voting for/against gay marriage in Iowa. It is pretty superb. It's long, so if anyone wants it, let me know. Gab. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 13:06:39 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: Pound & Fascism, etc. i just want to clarify an earlier post of mine: for several years i read pound incessantly and was enthralled by the poetry and the man. it is now, much later on, that i can only read the pisan cantos. whatever pound was, he was also one of the great poets, period. doesn't "mauberly" show pound's extreme pain and sense of loss, and so show us a way into comprehending him? ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.17.96 1:06:39 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:13:47 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: what is poetics " regarding New Zealand rush hour: I hope you're not reading your POETICS while driving (or herding sheep) - HGould" Oh yes, I ride my sheep across the Harbour Bridge but it hasn't got enough revs to change lane. It can't compete with people on ostriches, deer and llamas, so gets stuck by the Elephant House for twenty minutes every morning. It drives me up the wall, like a good NZ poet. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 13:26:12 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: FW: Re: Pound & Fascism, etc. --- On Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:57:21 PST Jerry Rothenberg wrote: >Bravo John Matthias and Milan Kundera. > >Bravo Ezra Pound without whose poetry ours likely wouldn't be. I HEARTLY JOIN IN W/ WITH YR HUZZAHS. >(Brooding on this for a while: the rush to condemnation. >More later, as it comes.) > >Jerome Rothenberg > ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.17.96 1:03:40 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 13:31:14 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: learning about the other: forgive buut never forget. eryque wrote: >so now the problem is, how do i (we) get to a point where we truly are >groovy? what do we do with pound after we read him? one thing maybe we could do is to marvel at the protean nature of humankind ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.17.96 1:31:14 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 13:34:08 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: FW: this list --- On Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:47:38 -1000 Gabrielle Welford wrote: >I just want to say that I am proud and umble to be on this list. What a >wonderful, compassionate, thoughtful crowd dealing with explosive >topics. Gab. > me, too, gab ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.17.96 1:34:08 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:40:26 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: 16 Oz or From: Wystan Curnow Let's make a BAD FOLKS List. Let's see, who we got so far: Pound Frost Baraka Hemingway There are so many bad folks in the world and so much badness to learn from.More names please. Wystan How's abt Wyndham Lewis for his persecution of David Bomberg and of other Jews at the Slade (see R.Cork's monograph on Bomberg). Don't try to read Wyndham Lewis, don't even thinbk abt it. And don't let me hear anyone make demeaning remarks about Bomberg's paintings anymore, such as "Well, in that David Sylvester show at the Tate, Bomberg turned out to be not really all that exciting..." which cd be heard in responsible quarters in London. And Nicolas Poussin for following Roman fashionable anti-semitism in his painting of the Last Supper for Cassiano dal Pozzo, where Judas is characterised as a Jew (in distinction from the other Apostles)... Do you think I don't know how to point the fimger? And, Tony Green, not for anti-semitism, but for his disgusting way of life. And Wystan Curnow, well now, we all know what he gets up to. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 13:41:49 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: voting on a new usenet group... joe --- yeah, i hear you , too ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.17.96 1:41:49 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 13:43:35 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: learning about the other: forgive buut never forget. eryque --- loopier than loons kinda goes w/ the territory, don't it just? i gotta run now --- going to hang out w/ my good friend and ex-, gigi gamble, who is a scando-latino-bisexual-wonder-woman (learning abt the other), whom i love dearly flyin th freak flag i remain til next we meet yr hmbl & obt etc dogboy ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.17.96 1:43:35 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 16:57:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Bury Fascist Ezra Pound In-Reply-To: Gab wrote: Has anyone on the list read Wilhelm Reich? He was dealing with exactly these things. He was and still is very controversial--I think the only American to have his books burned by the government. The most radical activist can be a fascist to the kids at home. Where does it start? Reich's MASS PSYCHOLOGY OF FASCISM is still an excellent book -- as are a number of other books by Reich who did indeed die in jail, harassed to death by the FBI -- even if some of his own late ideas (the orgone stuff -- though the cancer biopathy material is still worth looking at) went kinky. The trajectory of the life & career is an amazing testimony of this century's madness -- & greatness. -- Pierre ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Form fascinates when one no longer has the force Dept. of English | to understand force from within itself. That SUNY Albany | is, to create." -- Jacques Derrida Albany NY 12222 | tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | "Poetry is the promise of a language." email: | -- Friedrich Holderlin joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 13:54:29 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: badfolks list i gotta nominate myself for this list as well, for all the vicious things i've done to myself and others in my very checkered past. re wyndham lewis --- yeah, but wasn't he good friends w/ jacob epstein? lewis is another writer i was enthralled w/ for a while. ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.17.96 1:54:29 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 14:21:59 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: Ed Fallon gab --- please send me a copy of that speech thanks ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.17.96 2:21:59 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 16:32:33 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Pound & Fascism, etc. re john's helpful extract from kundera: there's a lot about kundera TOO that i've a problem with in fact!... i'm not just trying to be difficult here, and i can appreciate that many of you (jerry, chris, others) may find k's writing invigorating... i don't wish to rush a judgment *here*, but there's always seemed to me to be a not-so-latent (male) sexism at work in his work (such as _the book of laughter & forgetting_---and i don't *think* there were any women artists in those excerpts, were there?)... i can recall trying once to broach this issue with a colleague of mine, and the resistance i experienced at that time to any mention of k's authorial responsibility... now i like some of k's remarks (as excerpted) re the paradoxes of judgment/"trial" (although i think he's wildly off on _1984_)... but i'm also struck by how this can become a dodge, a way of avoiding even talking about, say, the fascism of pound (which latter would seem, thankfully, NOT to be the rule of thumb in these parts, and which, for example, charles' experience at yale speaks to)... just look at the way k frames his argument, for example: "the immature sit in judgment on celine's erring ways..." excuse me?... "the immature"?... i mean, i'm interested in the context (i can be such a bore, i know) in which kundera's work is articulated/received... and so much of our current political climate strikes me as conservative, so much so that i'm struck by how k's remarks can be taken to support a conservative approach to what should be taught, and how... for those on the outside of academe, you may be aware that many of us on the inside are experiencing incredible pressure to be 'less radical,' which generally translates in more extremist jargon to claims that we radical folks are "indicting" various authors for their passe political sentiments... that is, there's pressure on many of to 'return' to a more presumably blessed state of literary-critical rapprochement (evidently, from my vantage point, one more amenable to corporate mergers)... ergo those of us who lay claim, however diversely, to represent more progressive-liberal agenda are accused of a "politically correct" platform by (generally) the right (latter term used unadvisedly)... which often ends up filtering into more popular media to make us look like eager zealots whose sole purpose is to ideologize and deflate Great Literature in order to perpetuate our self-interested ends (*whatever* these may be)... not to excuse abuses from the left, but, uhm--- sorry to go on so... but i think that judgment as well as critiques of same need to be rendered carefully, but nonetheless need to be rendered... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 17:42:52 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Paul Naylor Subject: Nourbese Philip Peter -- your reading of the tension between text and essence in Philip's essay and work is right on the mark. As she puts it, her use of the term "i-mage" "does not represent the increasingly conventional deconstruction of certain words, but draws on the Rastafarian practice of privileging the 'I' in many words." When she was here in Memphis last November, I asked her to comment on this passage in relation to one by bell hooks in "Postmodern Blackness": "Should we not be suspicious of postmodern critiques of the 'subject' when they surface at a historical moment when many subjugated people feel themselves coming to voice for the first time." Neither Philip nor hooks are arguing that we dismiss deconstructive or postmodern critiques of the subject. hooks goes on to argue (and I think Philip would agree) that "Postmodern culture with its decentered subject can be the space where ties are severed or it can provide the occasion for new and varied forms of bonding." I think that either/or speaks to the tension not only in Philip's work but in most of what gets termed postmodernism -- the tension that helps produces "new and varied forms of bonding." (I hope that doesn't smell too offensively Hegelian, to borrow Nietzsche's comment on his _Birth of Tragedy_.) For Philip, there does seem to be a resolution of that tension, although it is a kinetic rather than static resolution. Here's the final paragraph of "The Absence of Writing or How I Almost Became a Spy," which opens up _She Tries Her Tongue_: "For the many like me, black and female, it is imperative that our writing begin to recreate our histories and myths, as well as integrate that most painful of experiences -- loss of our history and our word. The reacquisition of power to create in one's own i-mage and to create one's own i-mage is vital to this process; it reaffirms for us that which we have always known, even in those most darkest of times which are still with us, when everything conspired to prove otherwise -- that we belong most certainly to the race of humans." So the "I" does go through the postmodern process of critique or deconstruction, but it doesn't end there but with the possibility of "new and varied forms of bonding" -- like this list. Paul Naylor MAIL SEND in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" SEND in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 19:19:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: Kids, Frieddy, etc. At 10:44 AM 3/17/96 -1000, Gabrielle Welford wrote: >On Sun, 17 Mar 1996, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > >> I agree with all you say eryque > >oooops! Sorry emily. I misread your (for eryque) as (from eryque). Gab. > :) Gab: eryque probably needs the apology more than me. The commune was--maybe this is telling, maybe not--a small lesbian commune in MD. I agree wholeheartedly about kids needing many different adults in their lives. I do think the nuclear family is a problematic set-up (hat-tip to Freud and Chris); it doesn't lend itself to exposure to lots of different kinds of folks (on the other hand, a lesbian commune doesn't really either). What can we do if we don't move to communes? I don't know. Have lots of diverse friends. Invite them over. And don't send the kids to bed when we do. I'd, please, like a copy of that Fallon speech. Eryque: about us whiteys who grew up in lily-white neighborhoods trying to deal with the racism we've been taught/have internalized: there's a group in DC called DC White Lesbians Against Racism Everywhere. Is this wacky/infuriating? A black woman wanted to go to their meeting and was barred. They wanted to be in an all-white space so they could talk uninhibitedly about their racism w/o feeling ashamed. I get the point, I definitely do, but I think it's hugely ironic/saddening/maddening that it ended up that way. Lily-white neighborhoods will hopefully be a thing of the past soon. Lily-white neighborhoods are another place I would prefer not to raise my (theoretical) kids. Aldon: true, not ANY text can be manipulated by nazis. But truly, a thorough, honest reading of Nietzsche yields nothing in the way of Pro-nazism. My guess is that his choice of the word "Overman" (Ubermensch) is what did it. He talked about the creation of a world of "overmen," and the nazis took one glance at the word and thought "yup, like an aryan nation." But he was using it to mean "enlightened being" (insofar as one finds Nietzsche's prescriptions enlightening)..."Bodhisattva" (sp?) could be warped, then, to nazi purposes. "Overman" was an unfortunate word choice; overmen them(nonexistent)selves would have nothing to do with a nazi state, or any kind of state. Everyone: haven't seen "Il Postino," but rented last night Jean Luc-Godard's grapple with "King Lear," and recommend it. It's the kind of movie that makes you think of big words, but it's great anyway-- deals w/everything from imagism to ancestors to text-im-purity to re & de construction etc. Also, weirdly enough, it stars Molly Ringwald. King Lear is a mafia don. e (from emily) :) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Emily Lloyd emilyl@mail.erols.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 17:58:00 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: switzerland The new issue (#4) of _Lyric &_ Jacques Derrida: _Of Spirit: Heidegger and The Question_ Aris Fioretos, ed: _Word Traces: Readings of Paul Celan_ E.E. Cummings: _Eimi_ Larry Eigner: _Selected Poems_ (Oyez) Bill Watterson: _Attack of the Deranged Mutant Killer Monster Snow Goons_ (Calvin and Hobbes) and a bunch of Burning Deck titles I just received: Brita Bergland, _The Rebirth of the Older Child_ Claire Needell, _Not a Balancing Act_ Claude Royet-Journoud, _i.e._ Pam Rehm, _Piecework_ and Jackson MacLow, _The Virginia Woolf Poems_ Steve ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 17:58:00 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Kundera Thanks John Matthias for the long Kundera quote. I do agree with him about the reduction to politics and the notion of the trial as "the forgetting of everything except guilt." And Joe, your point about how such a concept might be used to stifle critique from the left is well taken, but to me it doesn't negate the resonance of truth in the thought itself (I'm aware that you weren't trying to do this). In many ways, the right and the left are equally culpable in the reduction of human beings to their "positions" on certain political "issues", and while I'm quite a bit more sympathetic to the left when it does this, I don't see any real lasting solutions to the problems we face as human beings being solved by this reduction. Humanity is an extraordinarily complex critter, and I'm not sure that there's a politics out there that gives that fact the full respect, empathy, and imagination it demands. In trying to develop something that will, we of course run massive risks and make ourselves totally vulnerable to reduction ourselves. Steve ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 20:19:55 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Paul Naylor Subject: Uber-Freddy I agree with you, Emily; I don't think you can find pro-nazism in Nietzsche's texts -- sexism and biologism, yes, but nazism, no. I think the term Ubermensch has it's origins close to home -- in Emerson's term Oversoul. Emerson was a great favorite of Nietzsche's. "Emerson with his essays has been a good friend and cheered me up even in black periods: he contains so much skepsis, so many 'possibilities' that even virtue achieves espirit in his writings. A unique case! Even as a boy I enjoyed listening to him. _Tristram Shandy_ also belongs to my earliest favorites . . ." Thus Spoke Frieddy. Paul Naylor MAIL SEND in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" SEND in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 19:05:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tosh berman Subject: Re: Bury Fascist Ezra Pound Fascist work is always interesting. I cannot imagine why one would want to avoid that type of work. I really do think that there is some form of fascism in all of us. Especially ones who want to ban or restrict thoughts - pure and ugly. tosh ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 22:26:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen or Peter Landers Subject: Re: 16 Oz or (bow outs) On Fri, 15 Mar 1996 09:56:46 I wrote: >Another reason this is a problem, for others probably as much as me, is >because I want to draw a historical lineage. It's naive, I know, but the >line from my favorite poets back to Whitman goes through Pound. If I look >at it: Whitman - Pound - Zukofsky - Olson - (here it explodes into various >Black Mountain and L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E people), I can see where the weakest >link is in the chain. It is Pound. Compare any part of the Cantos to any >part of "A" or Maximus, it really pales in comparison. Dear Self, Dickinsen - Williams - Zukofsky makes more sense. It is also neater. Peter landers@vivanet.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 22:46:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: Re: Uber-Fried Yes, lots of Emerson in Nietzsche. And lots of Lady MacBeth. Switz: all my ROOF book orders that just came in the mail. :) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Emily Lloyd emilyl@mail.erols.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 20:37:25 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: Pound & Fascism, etc. joe my huzzahs were directed toward the SPIRIT of jerry's bravos, not necessarily at kundera himself. i'm not all that familiar w/ kundera, to tell the truth. chris ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.17.96 8:37:26 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 01:17:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: dadaists & mamaists Emily L. wrote: >Christopher F--that's *really* interesting, about "da" "ma" & your daughter. >I had no idea that these sounds were the easiest for kids to make first... My daughter, Alexandra, went through a period at 9 months as she was just beginning to walk, holding onto things, in which she wld repeat over & over "boo-da, boo-da" sometimes plaintively, sometimes matter-of-factly, sometimes laughingly, sometimes seemingly making an observation. . . my friend Robby Bick's daughter repeated "allah, allah" around the same age. . . Rod ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:04:21 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Kellog's article and reification I have received (thank, Davids) and begun exploring David Kellog's "Desire..." article he recently passed out. While reading I was puzzled and saddened by his comments on desire's apparent growing reification as a noun. My bias as a psychologist and a poet is for process. I see this as possibly a reflection of our current captivity in advertising imagery, sound bites, and conservative rigidity: "...the overwhelming preference more recent poets have for _desire_ in its noun form....poets gravitate toward the potential of the word as a thing...[its] gestural, deictic quality increases its appeal for recent poets who negotiate the Scylla of discourse and the Charybdis of subjectivity. (414)." I think it was my sense of cultural rigidification that recently led me to initiate a "verbalized noun" renga (collaborative poem - with help from fellow fellow renga qaballists): Sam friscoed his living space she has plans to cattle his life savings for a formering singe to heart my laptop I could magazine it if you'd creche me don't apple with me or i'll weeping willow you until you profound it, you coffee it up and wetting don't caulk in the whispered to-be-jointed night, don't phone me laughter it fretly, soap a mariner who perimeters the sextant or sextants the apse he milky ways on the shore on the shore tom ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 00:38:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: _Rethinking C.L.R. James_ In-Reply-To: <199603180542.AAA02690@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> As Rod indicated, there is much good stuff in this book -- but :: for some reason it reprints Anna Grimshaw's Intro. to the volume of James letters published by the same press (Blackwell) at the same time :: The Jim Murray essay contains several repeats from earlier publications AND completely misrepresents the essays of other people he talks about (like Selwyn Cudjoe) :: Grant Farred, in the process of arguing that James is not yet famous enough to be "quotable" proves his point inadvertenly by misquoting James upshot -- read this one at the library, and spend your money on the volume of letters -- The Ross & Larsen essays are pretty good, but the letters are something to have for your own library -- they are letters written to Constance Webb, who became James's second wife -- he contradicts himself, very well , he contradicts himself,,,, but this book is a wonderful opportunity to watch a writer thinking his way through some of the pressing issues of his day -- he's way off about Muriel Rukeyser, but he's right on the money about so much else -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 00:39:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: headings In-Reply-To: <199603180542.AAA02690@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> I'm going to Detroit Saturday & will be in town thru Wed. night -- any Detroit folk on this list in addition to Lyndberg & Watten? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:25:35 +0300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ada Aharoni Subject: Re: Bunting, Pound and Luther King In-Reply-To: Hi! The most relevant piece of information so far, to my mind, that has been quoted in this discussion concerning Ezra Pound, is Basil Bunting's sincere, outspoken and couragious condemnation of Pound's disgusting Fascism: > "Every anti-semitism, anti-niggerism, anti-moorism, that I can recall in > history was base, had its foundation in the meanest kind of envy and in > greed. It makes me sick to see you covering yourself with that filth. It > is not an arguable question, has not been arguable for at least nineteen > centuries... it is hard to see how you are going to stop the rot of your > mind and heart without a pretty thoroughgoing repudiation of what you > have spent a lot of work on." > - Basil Bunting to Pound, 1938. > Basil Bunting was wise enough to sense how dangerous, "filthy," "rotten" and twisted Pound's fascist ideas were at the rise of Nazism. I congratulate all those on this list who have expressed the same kind of disgust and fear concerning our own times, and have enough backbone not bend to "peer pressure" and to fashionable "cliches rags." I am sorry to see that some of us have not learnt enough from history, as "Fascist ideas and fascist poetry pave the road to burning ovens..." After all the self-pitying lame arguments, excuses and repetitions, let's be conscientious enough to bury Ezra Pound after all. Let's rather resurrect Luther King's wise words: "WHEN BAD MEN PLOT, GOOD MEN MUST PLAN...." (I am sure he meant good women too...) I suggest we be choosy, and read, teach and spread, in the restricted time that is at our disposal, what can help us build a better culture and a better world toward year 2000, and not drag with us into the new century what can lead us again to gas chambers. Cheers to Basil Bunting and Luther King! And to all those who do not just toe the line and join the herd, but rather adopt challenging attitudes, and think new, positive, constructive and nourishing thoughts like them... "For my day is a Pomegranate full of ruby grains - as long as each grain is a lifetime - I do not care if I'm the woman of no time ..." Ada Aharoni ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 02:00:32 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: my excesses hey --- received a couple of posts today telling me i was sending a bit to much --- i'm sorry for any inconvenience i may have caused and hope that my enthusiasm has somewhat excused my breach of etiquette. in future i will be infinitely more discreet. later --- chris ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.18.96 2:00:32 am q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 02:49:36 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: a hurricane triggered by butterfly's wings Subject: newsgroup creation policy bogosity In-Reply-To: <199603180542.AAA02690@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> from "Automatic digest processor" at Mar 18, 96 00:12:52 am Sorry for the delay, digest don't ya know. So then Joe Amato up and wrote: >all: this is from another list, sans original headers... i thought it >might be appropriate to post here on poetics... i've decided, with some >hesitation, to vote 'no'... my hesitation owing only to my concerns about >first amendment issues---BUT voting is established practice for creating >usenet groups... ergo the internet decides for itself on the basis of >appeal to democratic (voting) practices, w/o intervention in the form of >censorship... this touches on the question of how best to deal with fascism >etc... Folks, as I understand the Usenet voting process, the ONLY valid method of announcing newsgroup votes is the CFV in news.groups. That way, the votes (theoretically, anyway) come from informed sources, and NO votes come from people who object to the group based on traffic or namespace issues (such as redundancy). Any broadcast of the vote to other forums constitutes vote fraud; I've now seen the announcement of this particular vote on three or four newsgroups, which almost certainly guarantees that the group will be created. The authors of the CFV will merely point out that a massive smear campaign was launched against the group in this newsgroup and that newsgroup, and , all those NO votes get invalidated. I'm not quite paranoid enough to suspect that the smear campaign against the group was started by one of the groups proponents, nor do I really believe that the newsgroup should be a part of the 'rec.' hierarchy (talk.politics.white-power would be a more appropriate place in the namespace hierarchy for the group, as the proposed charter clearly allows for discussion outside of purely musical issues; further, alt.music.white-power was created over the weekend), but it's pretty much moot now. They'll get their 'rec' group by default. I know you meant well, Joe, but you've acheived the reverse of your intentions by posting this information. Sorry to bear bad tidings. paul -- At least we'll know where to find them. Maybe the huge wandering fascism/libertarian argument will take root in that newsgroup and free up the rest of the net...nah, who am I kidding. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:10:10 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: poetry center info/donations In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 16 Mar 1996 10:57:31 +0800 from On Sat, 16 Mar 1996 10:57:31 +0800 Schuchat said: >Henry, considering the location ("Cranston near the city line") might I >suggest you name the poetry center after that son of Providence, Ted >Berrigan? Good idea - I'll bring it up at the next meeting. We met day before St. Pat's day & somebody suggested "Wild Geese", after the Irish emigres (Dante liked to call bad poets "geese") - HG ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:16:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Scott J Pound Subject: Re: AN: Aldon Nielsen: BAD Comments: To: "Aldon L. Nielsen" In-Reply-To: On Fri, 15 Mar 1996, Aldon L. Nielsen wrote: > > Derrida's remarks on the reading of Nietzche in his _The Ear of the > Other_ have much to offer this discussion that so many are bowing out of -- > As do Nancy's in his essay "Our History," about de Man. The essay appeared in _Diacritics_. I'm not sure which one. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:17:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: 16 Oz or (bow outs) In-Reply-To: from "Karen or Peter Landers" at Mar 17, 96 10:26:18 pm > If I look at it: Whitman - Pound - Zukofsky - Olson - (here it > explodes into various Black Mountain and L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E people), I > can see where the weakest link is in the chain. It is Pound. Compare > any part of the Cantos to any part of "A" or Maximus, it really > pales in comparison. Yeah, but try to imagine _A_ or _Maximus_ in a world without the _Cantos_. Can't be done. You may not like the road, but that's how you get there. The funny thing is, 30 years ago the attack on Pound came from the New Critics. Part of the courage of Pound's then readers--Duncan, Blaser, Creeley, Olson, Rothenberg, etc.--was their willingness to stand up to that authority's dismissal of Pound as a fascist loony, and insist that there was something essential to be learned in reading this work. Maybe one similarity between the old new critics and new correct critics is that both are more interested in telling other people WHAT to read, rather than helping them augment HOW they read. Read RP Blackmur on Crane (as Thomas Yingling has it) then read Jane Smiley on Twain. Same old same old. Mike mboughn@epas.uotornto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 07:53:40 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Paul Naylor Subject: Pound and Zukofsky Mike -- you ask if it would be possible to imagine "A" without The Cantos. Barry Ahearn claims in _Zukofsky's "A"_, that Zukofsky "first read the _Cantos_ after completing "A" 1-4, and the rest of the movements [up to "A" 8] were probably too far advanced for drastic change" (76). Hey all you Zukofskyites, is Ahearn right about this? The more I read "A" the less like The Cantos it seems. While I'm on the topic, does anyone know if there's an article or book or posting that identifies all the passages from Marx, Veblen, Adams, etc in "A" 8? Paul Naylor MAIL SEND in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" SEND in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" in%"poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:56:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: Kellog's article and reification In-Reply-To: On Sun, 17 Mar 1996, Thomas Bell wrote: > I have received (thank, Davids) and begun exploring David Kellog's > "Desire..." article he recently passed out. While reading I was > puzzled and saddened by his comments on desire's apparent growing > reification as a noun. My bias as a psychologist and a poet is for > process. I see this as possibly a reflection of our current captivity > in advertising imagery, sound bites, and conservative rigidity: > "...the overwhelming preference more recent poets have for _desire_ > in its noun form....poets gravitate toward the potential of the word > as a thing...[its] gestural, deictic quality increases its appeal for > recent poets who negotiate the Scylla of discourse and the Charybdis > of subjectivity. (414)." I must say I agree with this assessment, though I hadn't thought about the word's reification in exactly this way. Do you take the article as contributing to this reification? (Of course I hope not, but I'm open to modification, will be glad to consider yr thoughts). In other words, was I the source of yr sadness & puzzlement? Not my aim at all . . . As you no doubt see, I read the function of desire in psychoanalysis as secondary -- in a historical sense -- to its use as a code term in the reproduction of poetic value. Not that it doesn't function also as a term of meaning; only that's not my primary concern. Another notion of reification is implied, I think, in the comparison the article makes between *desire* and other words in earlier poetries. Also, since I focused on desire in some comparatively establishment- oriented poets (Hass & Graham), the reification might be stronger there -- in Hass especialy (I think Graham escapes a bit on this score) -- than in some more radically process-oriented poets. My observation re: many prefer noun over verb / came after collecting a couple hundred desire-poems. By which I mean, I think it's really & sadly there. Which is not to say poets can't work against it. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 684-6277 There is some excitement in one corner, but most of the ghosts are merely shaking their heads. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 14:58:48 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R I Caddel Subject: Re: Pound & Man at Yale In-Reply-To: <199603180520.FAA18973@hermes.dur.ac.uk> Charles wrote: > This was the sort of occasion where you'd hear people > murmuring to one another, "you know, despite it all, maybe Pound > was right about social credit" (and maybe some other things too). > Creepy. - anyone who's been to a Pound Gathering must recognise that scene, and the really creepy bit for me is that so many of the murmurers are young and in other respects bright: young enough to know better, I'd have hoped. The Bunting poem "On The Fly-Leaf Of Pound's Cantos" which John Matthias mentions, as well as recognising that "you will have to go a long way round / if you want to avoid them" does carry a warning: Fatal glaciers, crags cranks climb, - but still some folk want to debate that "Pound was right". Heigh-ho. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx x x x Richard Caddel, E-mail: R.I.Caddel @ durham.ac.uk x x Durham University Library, Phone: 0191 374 3044 x x Stockton Rd. Durham DH1 3LY Fax: 0191 374 7481 x x x x "Words! Pens are too light. Take a chisel to write." x x - Basil Bunting x x x xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:18:59 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Blau DuPlessis Organization: TEMPLE UNIVERSITY Subject: Re: Pound takes a "Ding" -Returns a "Dong" In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 15 Mar 1996 09:18:46 PST from Intersecting circles of critical approaches, and non-intersecting circles. Feminist critics interested in modernism, esp. modern poetries, have talked about Pound's complex use of, interest in, ambivalence to, relation with the women of his generation. Those who want to follow thru on Pound and women might look at e.g. me, or Rachel Blau DuPlessis, "Corpses of Poesy:some modern poets and some gender narratives of lyric," in Lynn Keller and Cri- stanne Miller, ed. Feminist Measures: Soundings in Poetry and Theory from Univ of Michigan Press, 1995. Although I also appreciate moves to reinvent the wheel mainly because I don't think I have "the wheel," still it's interesting to see that gender and modernism is not currently undiscussed. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:19:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: Re: Bunting, Pound and Luther King At 12:25 PM 3/18/96 +0300, Ada Aharoni wrote: I am sorry to see that some of us have not learnt enough from history...After >all the self-pitying lame arguments, excuses and repetitions, let's be >conscientious enough to bury Ezra Pound after all. And to all those who do not >just toe the line and join the herd, but rather adopt challenging attitudes, >and think new, positive, constructive and nourishing thoughts like them... Wow. To call people who seem seriously interested in discussing the problem Pound's fascism v. teaching/reading his poetry presents--in grappling with themselves and looking at the issue from all angles-- "self-pitying," "lame" herd-joiners, etc., does not seem new, positive, constructive, or nourishing to me. It is quite odd language from someone clearly concerned with the way language can perpetuate/create animosity. e ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Emily Lloyd emilyl@mail.erols.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:20:13 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Julie Marie Schmid Subject: Re: Pound & Man at Yale In-Reply-To: I'm not sure if that book is in print, but his collected works were published recently and I'm fairly sure it was included in there. On Sun, 17 Mar 1996, chris daniels wrote: > charles (or anybody) --- > > is mac low's book still in print? > > ------------------------------------- > christopher daniels 3.17.96 11:49:18 am > > q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they > said anything goes?" > --- charles wourinen (?) > > a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." > > --- george clinton > > snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa > voice: 510.524.5972 > http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:17:17 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Subject: Re: Pound & Man at Yale In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 18 Mar 1996 14:58:48 +0000 from On Mon, 18 Mar 1996 14:58:48 +0000 R I Caddel said: >Charles wrote: >> This was the sort of occasion where you'd hear people >> murmuring to one another, "you know, despite it all, maybe Pound >> was right about social credit" (and maybe some other things too). >> Creepy. On NPR this morning they were talking about new municipal paper money issued in Ithaca, NY - called "Ithaca Hours" (the bills that is) - they said it helps the local barter economy. Ithaca, no less! Maybe Pound was there too, trying to shoot arrows through axeheads while giving a harangue or something... -- Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:32:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark W Scroggins Subject: Re: Pound and Zukofsky In-Reply-To: <01I2H5UVJXUA986L3T@msuvx2.memphis.edu> Paul: Yes, Ahearn's right, at least according to Zukofsky in his correspondence with Pound--that is to say, he had no idea of _The Cantos_ as large-scale project when he wrote the first movements of _"A"_, tho he'd read some of them in little magazines. There is no exhaustive or less-than-exhaustive tracking of his borrowings in "A"-8--Ahearn's probably as close as you can get, though Sandra Stanley's Zukofsky book from California has interesting material on Z and Adams, and does some clever things with "A"-8. No-one seems terribly interested in doing a Carroll F. Terrell (or George Butterick) on _"A"_, though I believe one of Guy Davenport's grad students traced all the Spinoza material in the poem. At the risk of self-promotion, you might want to check out my edited collection, _Upper Limit Music: The Writing of LZ_, out this summer from U of Alabama P. Mark Scroggins ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:42:18 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: newsgroup creation policy bogosity paul, thanx for pointing that out, and apologies to the rest of this list... i had (foolishly) assumed, having been forwarded the voting info., that this was ok... but my lack of experience with usenet (more techno-ignorance---and i've been online steadily for five-six years to boot!) done me in... so mebbe my misgivings were not misgiven... anyway... thanx again paul for the info and correction... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:46:25 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Kundera steve, chris and others---thanx much for your subsequent glosses re kundera etc... listen: much of my experience re relative left's and right's (and steve---you're correct, it's no mean thing to try to speak to experience through politics) is, these days anyway, academically-situated... i won't say that this should be taken as *the* privileged locus of points---there are surely non-academic arts communities for which many of the academic issues seem moot... but i have to assert here that it's much more likely to find oneself debating pound's relative de/merits if one is in an anguish dept. than if one is working at a brewery (i spent four-five years in a brewery, and the autodidacts in this regard were the exception proved the rule)... that many intellectuals in this country have been driven into academic quarters in the past half-century itself reflects a changing political-economic demographics... put simply: i regard the primary service of the academic institution as teaching, and i regard teaching as a powerful institutional force in this culture (and other cultures)... further, there's simply a lot of controversy these days in educational circles (at all levels, in fact) over what is properly and not properly educational---and this is highly motivated controversy, with lots and lots of dollars behind it... please, ALDON, pipe up, you're better-informed here than me!... let me say it another way: the discussion hereabouts re pound would NOT be considered pertinent to anguish studies by the powers-that-would-like-to-be-and-may-in-fact-be-the-only-powers-that-be... the powers-that-would-etc. would prefer it were we anguish profs. to discuss such matters in our spare time, among our arcane selves... or, if we must, then devote our teaching time either to (1) skills instruction, in which event pound becomes merely a 'model' writer---this is the preferred mode if pound is to be introduced at all (and this latter would so obviously be so difficult) or (2) art appreciation, in which event pound is seen as one of the giants on whose shoulders we variously reside... i am not exaggerating about this united-state-of-affairs, and i find it alarming as hell---which is why this issue continues to be my hobbyhorse on poetics whenever the question is raised of how to situate aesthetic practice... there is currently incredible pressure right at this moment to turn curricular and pedagogical realities into mere instructional mechanisms for corporate indoctrination (which btw is not the same as institutional survival)... part of what has compromised the ability of phuds to mount any sustained resistance is the dismal job market (and yes---i understand that this mirrors other dismal economic realities)... at my institution, for example, we recently filled a position for which we had over 400 fully-qualified applicants---applicants with phud, with publications, etc... a hopelessly reductive task, in short, and one that is all too commonplace these days... couple this with an academic-professional tradition that resists talk of collective bargaining and the like and you get something like indentured service as a presumed means of 'accessing' the tenure-track... and the fall-out for teaching and learning is often the loss of any less-than-functional motives, with little institutional leverage to do anything about it... ergo, i began my "creative writing workshop" this semester (and please do note how the term "workshop" itself plays into this functional grid) by claiming i had NO OBJECTIVES in teaching the class... that students would have to set their own goals, that i simply required certain activities and submissions and participation, these latter sans any teleology, any set point (i am instructing primarily science and technology kids, and i have no majors)... or to put it as my wife kass fleisher does, i am striving for USELESSNESS as an instructor---a difficult thing to attain, and something fully in accord with student-centered theories of education---which are themselves the bane of top-down, expertise-driven, paternalistic corporate practices (which remain resolutely chain-of-command past a certain managerial level)... note that i abrogate no responsibility in striving for uselessness---it is simply that i redirect my teaching energies toward making students more self-sufficient... which makes me less useful, ysee---a paradox, in short... and to the extent i'm able, i also institute peer review and *grading*, usually with a fair amount of success (and peer grading is formally outlawed at my institution, but students rarely complain)... anyway, you can imagine how my students reacted... now, at the mid-point of the semester, they would seem, those who are still in the class, finally to be catching on... again i apologize for going on so... there is, as steve has suggested, truth in kundera's remarks... the difficulty for me comes with the recognition, a cliche perhaps at this late point in the 20th. century, that truth is context-dependent, provisional... which is less to argue against truth as such than to indicate just how important it is to construct and select our truths as carefully as we can... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:54:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tosh berman Subject: Re: Bunting, Pound and Luther King Again, I don't see how we can judge people in such black and white terms. There are so many gray areas. Pound is a jerk, but so what - he is still a fantastic poet. I mean, we can learn so much from "the jerks" out in the world. To bury or burn them - I find that totally fascist in itself. tosh ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:59:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Pound & Man at Yale thanks charles for your account of the yale deepfreeze. i think i tend to take for granted that the issue of pound's fascism is a dead horse --i'd been deleting the msgs and just read this one cuz i assumed the "man at yale" was harold bloom and wanted to know the scoop. what i learned was important, shocking and helpful. bests, maria d ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:03:29 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerry Rothenberg Subject: Re: more on Pound: query for Jerry R. This is in reply to Tenney's query about my own statement that the the most telling impact of Pound's work was on poets who politically, morally, might have been at the greatest distance from it. To start with my own experience -- growing up0 when I did -- the presence of Pound in the late 1940s was, to say the least, a bewilderment. I was stunned by much of the poetry, both by how it read (the language of it) and by what I heard it saying: anti-war & anti-capital & powerful too in its presentation of a way, a means, of approaching & hoping to shape the world through the poet's means, the poetry itself. I was about 16 years old at a first reading of him & shortly thereafter -- along with the reading -- came the awarding of the Bollingen & the tremendous fuss that that stirred up (close to fifty years ago). With that we were aware also of the extent of Pound's fascism &, as became clearer over the years, the viciousness of the anti-semitism in his World War II broadcasts -- a lunacy of language common to the fringe of homegrown fascists who were also in his entourage. My own first published piece of writing was a letter to the New York Post (a different NY Post at that time) in which I lamented what I thought had happened to Pound and what had become (as it still seems to be) a conundrum around the man & the work the man had given us. There was a lot I didn't know then but knowing it would certainly not have made it easier. I was never, in any sense, a Poundian, since there were too many other threads & lines coming into my awareness to allow a focus (in that sense) on any single individual. But the observation of Pound's impact -- on myself & others -- began shortly after that: the observation that those who were most significantly building on Pound's poetics & actual poetry were not the crazies & the fascist hoods of the John Kasper variety, etc., but poets like Kelly, Olson, Duncan, Mac Low, Blackburn, & before them the whole gallery of "Objectivists" or -- from other directions -- any number of European and Latin American writers -- all of them (as I understood it) with a political and moral sense (coming out of World War II) that was strongly anti-fascist, strongly in opposition to the totalitarian barbarisms for which Pound (in the years of his fascist infatuation) had become a minor flunky. In their context Pound became, remained a vital force -- the proof, through them, of what was right & germinal about him and the proof, conversely, of what was evil -- & banal in Hannah Arendt's sense -- in his succumbing to the "fascist temptation." What Pound offered and in some sense made possible wasn't divorced from the political but wasn't at the same time tied to what became HIS politics. It was a demonstration of how the political -- as history -- could enter the body of the poem -- how the poem could thrive on what Ed Sanders (many years later & clearly drawing on Pound) spoke of as "data clusters" defining a new "investigative poetry". I don't need to go on with this, I think, except to note that it was (as far as I can recollect) not the little fascists who learned from this but poets who by disposition and, I believe, commitment were looking for a way out of the fascist & totalitarian nightmare that had threatened to overwhelm our world. And there was also -- stronger in Pound than in most other forerunners in the North American context -- a sense that history & poetry could be redefined, opened up and certainly renewed, and that for this Pound himself (as Charles B., I think, points out in his Pound essays) was a stepping- stone, a guide to things that his fascist leanings would have finally precluded. He was clearly the most extraordinary translator we had by then produced -- not only pointing to Albigensian Provence and to a sense of China speaking to the present, but (coming like Cesaire and the other Negritude poets) from the likes of Frobenius, forming one of the links (but only one) to an African past as a pinnacle, too, of the creative human spirit. It is not to say that this was -- all of it -- of Pound's doing but that he helped to set much of it in motion -- much of what, coming after him & (in some sense in spite of him) -- became essential to our present work. And, finally, I would point out what was -- for myself & others -- the lesson of Pound's failure -- the lesson of the poet who had in the long run betrayed his poetry. It is a terrible thing to say and it is, I think, a terrible possibility that faces all of us. But it is Pound who also says it best, from the "pull down thy vanity" voice in Canto 81 to the still more telling voice (where he was already into his silence, depression) in Canto 116: I have brought the great ball of crystal who can lift it? Can you enter the great acorn of light? But the beauty is not the madness Tho' my errors and wrecks lie about me. And I am not a demigod, I cannot make it cohere. I can read this, anyway, as both a confession of failure (and of betrayal -- of himself & us) and at the same time a triumph of whatevr is there speaking through him. But not Pound alone -- for which let me end, Tenney, by copying out (in what's already a long message) a poem by Julien Beck (of the Living Theater, etc. (a good pacifist & anarchist & anti-fascist), who I think loved all the poets that he mentioned in it. It's one too that Pierre and I are hoping to include -- along with a number of others -- in a section of manifestos for the next volume of Millennium. Julian Beck's "the state will be served / even by poets" the breasts of all the women crumpled like gas bags when neruda wrote his hymn celebrating the explosion of a hydrogen bomb by soviet authorities children died of the blistrs of ignorance for a century when siqueiros tried to assassinate trotsky himself a killer with gun and ice pound shimmering his incantations to adams benito and kung prolonging the state with great translation cut in crystal claudel slaying tupi guarani as he flourished cultured documents and pearls in rio de janeiro when he served france as ambassador to brazil melville served by looking for contraband as he worked in the customs house how many taxes did he requite how many pillars of the state did he cement in place tell me tell me tell me stone spenser serving the faerie queene as a colonial secretary in ireland sinking the irish back for ten times forty years no less under the beau monde's brack seneca served by advising nero on how to strengthen the state with philosophy's accomplishments aeschylus served slaying persians at marathon and salamis aristotle served as tutor putting visions of trigonometrics in alexander's head dali and eliot served crowning monarchs with their gold wallace stevens served as insurance company executive making poems out of profits euclides da cunha srved as army captain baritoning troops and d h lawrence served praising the unique potential of a king these are the epics of western culture these are the flutes of china and the east everything must be rewritten then goethe served as a member of the weimar council of state and condemned even to death this is the saga of the state which is served even to death jr jrothenb@carla.ucsd.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:34:00 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: Bunting, Pound and Luther King Hi yourself, Ada! Just to start, let me say that I applaud and share your clearly sincere desire to live in a post-fascist world. I also appreciate your observation that we only have so much time, and it's certainly desirable to spend that time immersed in positive, healthy ideas rather than negative hateful ones. However, I see several very crucial dangers in the approach you suggest in your last three posts on this issue. Fascism works by precisely the kind of projection you seem to be advocating: it's so easy to project it onto a Pound, a Hitler, a Mussolini and divide the world into the bad people and the good people, and think that if the good people bury the bad, we'll have utopia. As soon as enough good people believe this to start carrying it out, they become fascists too. You've already manifested some of this divisiveness by implying that those of us who advocate a different tack on fascism and on Pound than you are somehow spineless, have bent to peer pressure and conformist fashion (but of what sort?), that we're lame and self-pitying (do these sound like Hitler's denunciations of the "degenerates" to anyone besides me?) (Interesting also, that you seem to feel some anxiety at King's omission of women from the words you quoted, and felt the need to fill that space in for him, as if not to wish to acknowledge a possible shortcoming of one of the "good people.") If we were all automata and could just have fascism programmed out of us, your solution would work great. However, fascism also feeds on negative emotions, and as human beings, we all have negative emotions. It's how we express them that's determinative. If we repress them, if we don't give them healthy outlets, if we make them Unspeakable, we'll end up with fascism. Because we all know how tempting taboos become. That's why I'm glad I'm not one of your students. Again, I appreciate that you want to give them positive role models, but if you're a positive role model yourself (and I'm certain you are), you should be able to talk them through Pound and have them understand where he goes wrong so they can avoid falling into the same trap. Instead I'm worried that you may have stuck their heads in the sand. Just to end, let me reiterate that I applaud and share your clearly sincere desire to live in a post-fascist world. I also appreciate your observation that we only have so much time, and it's certainly desirable to spend that time immersed in positive, healthy ideas rather than negative hateful ones. Also, I like the lines of poetry you ended with. I hope you take the time to go back through some of the posts on this subject and try to think through them with compassion for their authors. Thank you, Steve At 12:25 PM 3/18/96 +0300, you wrote: >Hi! > >The most relevant piece of information so far, to my mind, that has been >quoted in this discussion concerning Ezra Pound, is Basil Bunting's sincere, >outspoken and couragious condemnation of Pound's disgusting Fascism: > >> "Every anti-semitism, anti-niggerism, anti-moorism, that I can recall in >> history was base, had its foundation in the meanest kind of envy and in >> greed. It makes me sick to see you covering yourself with that filth. It >> is not an arguable question, has not been arguable for at least nineteen >> centuries... it is hard to see how you are going to stop the rot of your >> mind and heart without a pretty thoroughgoing repudiation of what you >> have spent a lot of work on." >> - Basil Bunting to Pound, 1938. > >> Basil Bunting was wise enough to sense how dangerous, "filthy," "rotten" >and twisted Pound's fascist ideas were at the rise of Nazism. I congratulate >all those on this list who have expressed the same kind of disgust and >fear concerning our own times, and have enough backbone not bend to "peer > pressure" and to fashionable "cliches rags." > >I am sorry to see that some of us have not learnt enough from history, as >"Fascist ideas and fascist poetry pave the road to burning ovens..." After >all the self-pitying lame arguments, excuses and repetitions, let's be >conscientious enough to bury Ezra Pound after all. Let's rather resurrect >Luther King's wise words: > >"WHEN BAD MEN PLOT, GOOD MEN MUST PLAN...." (I am sure he meant good >women too...) > >I suggest we be choosy, and read, teach and spread, in the restricted time >that is at our disposal, what can help us build a better culture >and a better world toward year 2000, and not drag with us into the new >century what can lead us again to gas chambers. > >Cheers to Basil Bunting and Luther King! And to all those who do not >just toe the line and join the herd, but rather adopt challenging attitudes, >and think new, positive, constructive and nourishing thoughts like them... > >"For my day is a Pomegranate >full of ruby grains - >as long as each grain >is a lifetime - >I do not care if I'm the woman >of no time ..." > >Ada Aharoni > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:46:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tosh berman Subject: Re: Bunting, Pound and Luther King I pretty much agree with Steve on this matter. But I for myself do not believe in Utopia. I think it is impossible to live on this world without pain. Fascism is one form of pain of sorts. I think to ignore fascism is to LATER embrace fascism. Tosh ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 16:37:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tardos Mac Low Subject: Big Allis reading at Segue Space, 23 May 1996 Melanie Neilson asked to have this updated notice & list posted: Re: _Big Allis_ #7 publication/ celebration evening of readings/performances on Thursday 23 May 1996 7:30 pm at the Segue Performance Space 303 East 8th Street, New York, New York 10009 Participants: 1. BRUCE ANDREWS 2. ULLA DYDO 3. ROB FITTERMAN 4. KIM ROSENFIELD 5. JULIANA SPAHR 6. JENA OSMAN 7. JOAN RETALLACK 8. ABBY CHILD 9. DEIRDRE KOVAC 10. ELIZABETH FODASKI 11. JEAN FOOS AND DIRK ROWNTREE 12. JACKSON MAC LOW 13. ANNE TARDOS 14. MARTINE BELLEN 15. HANNAH WEINER 16. GAIL SHER 17. PETER SEATON 18. RACHEL CAREAU and others Jackson Mac Low (for Melanie Neilson) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 21:32:43 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: dadaists & mamaists first word i 'recognised' from my son was 'hello' - somewhere around the ten month mark. 'dust' followed on its heels pretty quickly - like within a week. after that we went back to the goatish laughing gurgle for quite some time. seemed a clear trajectory to me then - and now. love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:48:41 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: poems Just thought I'd put a couple of new poems here. Hope they come through without awkward codings or other transformations. CERYTAIN SUHLANTS TWO for Ron Silliman this man strange turning forgetful though not in a line abiding to want oranges and not a color so much as through the tunnel pushing water reading a turn into some blue note ashes brass gate closed but a space under level or tool for moving same but shadows upon brown boxes, books, yellow cat nothing lists as if breathing matters, crocus beside, along, otherwise aslant and stripes, sure, can't away now or want doing for reach, elbow still surprises unfurnished, as though leaving means line break, body open, callous, asking without rancor not what keeps night's premise that points never starry say what one wall, hearing owls among rising a single point for horizon's will, my or their intention witnessed, ever, walking for notions, encounters, as fine this hour a line wants edge, aloof and strengthened with no idea ground upon lack turning other to cheeks' sadness ripe, lively wanting or unstraightened enough to place in mouth, hand, wash taste down forks upon nothing accordingly, original upheaval merges rimless engraved with Defoe's initials plunging sea-like concerned with the address of a rose (static wanders to empty spaces cling true) suits or untied hair muted a long time ago a trumpet g-sharp to b, odd sonority unfounded with an oboe, pierrot, re-beckoning the border is not necessarily a margin that gap water permeates / asking hosannas to be silent / prayer may be received or taken while sitting, facing wood, politics closed to mourners another world jumps on fathers / some paragraphs announcements and justice poses a fable prayer and the book try to make responsible deaf or out from under / that space the subsequent (previous) appearance of children, imperatives, request the occupation of bare feet, high sounding in open territory or aware PLACES IN TOW for Cynthia Miller & Steven Kranz Certain shifts of continent may be predicted from unfortunate windfalls coming by the dozens when all of us beg to be in pantaloons among apostrophes. Forget the wind, she said, except in one's dreams where hairs ride on saddles among lush thighs, tropical strivings toward monetary task forces, philanthropy withstanding, stated dimensions are questionably produced, framing documents for the freestanding corners of beds, ring hands until by virtue of finishing we wander slowly into wind woven canyons, heart shaped places in tow Apostles' flowing accomodations, robes for the pilgrims showing signs of wear, sing only arias, can it summon meetings of unequal duration, as in cesura heading for the cliff's edge, walk toward angels only when dust and secret drawings remember a friend, without crayons or sarcasm, he needed one, perhaps four and only found meditation possible with toxicity, strange books made of pencils and torn pages, not enough time to announce the inevitable, going through madness or laughing, sometimes the path does not diverge to green garden, frost only at higher altitudes where there have been no clouds for days, or remembered haiku along the rim of what human lingers where it all grew before, rolling, him ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 16:54:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: Pound and Zukofsky In-Reply-To: <01I2H5UVJXUA986L3T@msuvx2.memphis.edu> from "Paul Naylor" at Mar 18, 96 07:53:40 am > > Mike -- you ask if it would be possible to imagine "A" without The Cantos. > Barry Ahearn claims in _Zukofsky's "A"_, that Zukofsky "first read the _Cantos_ > after completing "A" 1-4, and the rest of the movements [up to "A" 8] were > probably too far advanced for drastic change" (76). Hey all you Zukofskyites, > is Ahearn right about this? The more I read "A" the less like The Cantos it > seems. While I'm on the topic, does anyone know if there's an article or book > or posting that identifies all the passages from Marx, Veblen, Adams, etc in > "A" 8? > > Paul Naylor > Thanks, Paul, for clarifying the compositional chronology, but my claim is more general. Not that Zukofsky was specifically inspired by the _Cantos_, but that that larger work of poetry that Jerry Rothenberg refers to--the epic, history, economics, and where it led Zukofsky--arose out of a world of possibilities that Ez, bless his ornery, repulsive soul, was crucial in helping create. We owe him that, however much we may hate his politics. It's one of those weird father things. I wonder if Zukofsky doesn't also make his turn away from that and toward his family at least partially in response to his reading of Pound? What Pound inadvertently has to teach us about reaching and over-reaching. Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 17:16:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: vacation from my vacation hi guyzies, it's maria. just came back from nyc where i did my first "reading" ever, at poetry city. it was a deep thrill. teachers and writers collaborative is a beautiful space. i'd assumed that, like most writing-related institutions, it'd be a hole in the wall type place but no. beautyful hardwood, vases full of roses, pretty potted trees and plants, posters and books on the wall-shelves, nice lighting. i read w/ walter lew. i went first, did part of a paper called Word-Landslayt: Gertrude Stein, Allen Ginsberg, Lenny Bruce, which is forthcoming in a book called People of the Book: THirty Scholars Reflect on their Jewish Identity, edited by Shelley Fisher Fishkin (of Was Huck Black? fame) and Jeffrey Rubin-Dorsky, U Wisconsin press. shd be out this summer, cuz there's gunna be a publication party at the Jewish museum on july 9, from 6 to 8 pm. to coincide with the shallow but fun exhibit Too Jewish? Challenging Traditional Identities, which i also saw on this visit. The fun part of the reading (besides getting to meet jordan davis, bill luoma, issa clubb, and brian steffens in the flesh, and seeing juliana spahr, douglas rothschild, bob holman and charles bernstein again) was that part of what i read was a story about my best friend from high school --and she was there! what a thrill. in fact, my best friends from high school (essie), college (walter) and grad school (ed cohen, who now teaches at rutgers) were there, as well as new people who have come into my life via this list. so it felt really complete, and i felt supported by people who had known me for a long time, as well as folks who knew me only from cyberwords. the crowd was great (though small). everyone laughed at the right places, and bob holman whooped it up in the front row for both me and walter. then jordan and i read some of our "collaborative poems," as i've renamed the rengas since as walter pointed out there's an orientalist problem with calling any collaborative poetry rengas, since many cultures have such poetic traditions. those were well-received also. charles b asked us to identify the collaborators, which we did to the best of our recollections. it was totally fun. then after a break walter read his terrific eliot-inspired spoofs of eliot (not that what he read was solely satirical, also intense), some of it abt. the korean slave-labor casualties of the hiroshima/nagasaki bombings. those were his own poems; he also read some of sesshu foster's, barry masuda's and roy oki (?)'s poetry from his anthology Premonitions (much recommended) and showed video poems by Jessica Hagedorn (from words in yr face, produced by bob holman) and Gloria Park; both works are featured in Premonitions through text and stills. he also showed his own WNYC poetry spot, when urged to do so by holman (who also produced it). it was truly swell and cool. it was an honor to read w/ him. the feeling overall was warm, turned on and groovy. much thanks to all who came, it was a moment of grace for me. other things i did were fun too, esp hanging out w/ ed's gargantuan cats, who are of oblympian and flabulous girth, going to the unbelievably tacky flower show at the coliseum (based on broadway hit theme --big mistake), researching bob kaufman's maritime years at the rutgers special collections (they have the national maritime union archives), meals/coffees with assorted groovoids from past present and future, almodovar's new flick, buying books (hambone, gathering of the tribes, etheridge knight selected, charles stein for $1 used, walter's dictee book which i'd lent out and never saw again, and rod smith's boy poems). to my credit, not one single item of clothing or jewelry was purchased by me (mostly cuz my favorite consignment shop, ina, was closed when i tried to go). fun to tha max. spring is coming, i cd feel it in brooklyn and i can see it in the rhododendron buds here on the cape. fishing boats out doing their thing, and i'm planning a party down here to show tapes of United States of Poetry to my cape crowd, who are not writers but enjoy having their minds blown. will be in nyc again for the bob kaufman birthday bash, yay! that's my update, i know it may be bad form to write up your own event on the POETRICKS list, so sue me. glad to be back on line.--maria d ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 17:16:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: poetry as performance has anyone else out there picked up gregory nagy's poetry as performance (cambridge, 1996)? i read in going down to nyc. it's about homeric epics and their process of reification as finished products. kinda pedantic, but a very pretty book and with some good if tedious etymological play.===maria d ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 17:55:39 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Ack--the word reified 's OK to mention publications to this list, right? My chapbook _Brother Ikon_ is available now from Inkstone Press--backchannel me for info. Gwyn McVay ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 00:04:19 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Black Writers Conference on the Web Hi - thought this might be of interest: BLACK WRITERS CONFERENCE TO INCLUDE INTERACTIVE INTERNET COMPONENT Medgar Evers College of the City University of New York will host the Fourth National Black Writers Conference in Brooklyn, NY on March 21-24. The theme is BLACK LITERATURE IN THE 90'S: A RENAISSANCE TO END ALL RENAISSANCES? A publicly accessible interactive version of the conference, hosted by Arts Wire, will be available on the World Wide Web at http://artsnet.heinz.cmu.edu/NBWC Those who can't make it to Brooklyn can respond to these issues on this World Wide Web version, implemented on Arts Wire's future virtual home -- the server at The Heinz School at Carnegie Mellon University. "We are pleased to announce that The Black Writers Conference will act as the kick-off of a long-term collaboration with the School of Arts Management at CMU," says Arts Wire Director, Joe Matuzak. "We believe there are unique and exciting opportunities for both Arts Wire and the Master of Arts Management Program in this association, and that both Arts Wire participants and CMU students can benefit substantially from this association. More details will be made available as they are settled." Keynote speakers for the conference are Paule Marshall and Amiri Baraka. Marita Golden, Terry McMillan, Bebe Moore Campbell, Walter Mosley, Arthur Flowers, Thulani Davis, and others will participate in a series of panels that include: *Choosing Exile: Black Writers from the Harlem *Renaissance to the Black Arts Movement *Choosing Exile: Black Writers from the Black Arts *Movement to the Renaissance of the 1990's *Presuming the Universality of the Black Experience *Politically Correct in a Politically Incorrect World *Black Literature: Who are the Readers? *Black Literature: The Politics of Publishing The Institute for African American Affairs at New York University will host Paule Marshall's keynote address at NYU on March 22, 1996. All panel discussions, Baraka's keynote address and Remarks by Walter Mosley will be held at Medgar Evers College. The web version includes all the panels listed above. It is free! Not only will Web visitors be able to read reports and transcripts uploaded to the Web during the face-to-face conference, but also they will be able to participate in discussions of issues raised by the conference panels. To join the conference, go to http://artsnet.heinz.cmu.edu/NBWC and follow the registration procedure. The face-to-face event received funding from the National Endowment for the Humanities. The Web version was funded by the Reed Foundation and implemented by Arts Wire's Beth Kanter, Barry Lasky and Tommer Peterson. It uses a version of WebCaucus, a web-based interface, that was developed for Arts Wire's Conferencing system. For information about the Fourth National Black Writers, contact: Dr. Elizabeth Nunez, 1650 Bedford Avenue, Brooklyn, NY 11225; tel: (718) 270-5049 E-mail ELNME@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU To participate in the web version of the conference, contact: bwc@artsnet.heinz.cmu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 19:41:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tardos Mac Low Subject: Pound etc. In re a question of Chris Daniels anent Charles Bernstein's last posting, I backchanneled the following information to Chris: I have copies available of _Words nd Ends from Ez_ @ $7.50 (my snail is 42 N Moore St New York NY 10013-2441.) I will begin something about Pound below, but may not finish it in this posting: Writing about EP is very painful and difficult. In a real sense, he introduced me to modern poetry in 1938 when I was 15 or16, in my late 3rd year or early 4th year of high school. I visited the University of Chicago campus, traveling from Kenilworth, a North Shore suburb, to the South Side of Chicago, to talk with my high school hero, Bertrand Russell. He was very nice when I phoned him (when I got out there!) but wasn't able to see me. (I met him several months later at a party out there.) So I went over to the U of C bookstore & found _Culture_, the New Directions 1938 version of _Guide to Kulchur_. I read most of it standing up at the book table. I'd literally never read anything like it. (I must not have noticed the fascism--there was so much exciting and new in it.) On the way home I stopped by at the main Chicago Public Library & got out several of EP's early books--_Lustra_, _Ripostes_, _Cathay_, and possibly _Personae_, (tho the aforementioned were collected eventually in that book). Whichever they were besides _Lustra_, I read them in a high state of excitement all the way hom on the El & and North Shore Line trains. *That* led me (with some assistance from George Dillon & Peter DeVries, who then were the editor & asst editor of _Poetry, A Magazine of Verse_) to all the rest of the modernists, except for Stein, whom I'd discovered in the Marshall Field's in Evanston several years earlier, and who later became my "favorite" of them all. I first read Pound, then Eliot, then Williams, then . . . By the spring of 1939, my later senior year in HS, I was giving lectures on modern poetry up thru Auden to our English class. Before reading Pound, I had only read with pleasure Whitman and Sandburg (who were both very inspiring to me--before coming across them, I disliked poetry). (It was about the same time that I discovered Donne and Herbert and the other 17th-century Metaphysical poets, and the Shakespeare of the Sonnets (I'd read several of the plays, of course.) My first poems were political--antiwar. Having been a New Deal liberal earlier, I was by then a democratic socialist and pacifist. Funny that, like Olson, I had my life changed, especially as a poet, by that fascist --and wonderful poet Several years later--in 1945--Robert Duncan and I crashed a reading by Williams at the 92nd St YMHA. We talked a little to him & then I wrote to him a little later, among other things, asking how Pound was. Next thing I got a note from Pound telling me to visit Hubert Creekmore at New Directions, and the latter told me how to write back to Pound. By then I knew about the fascism, but not yet about the radio talks. EP & I exchanged sporadic notes & eventually he was sending me Social Credit and other papers and I was sending him pacifist anarchist papers.(I was by then working with an anarchist pacifist group that put out a paper first called _Why?_ and later _Resistance_. (I did so 1944-54.) Among those who came to our discussion group were Robert Duncan, Paul Goodman, and once Julian Beck and Judith Maline who later began The Living Theatre. Goodman, as well as James Baldwin (once,anonymously) and myself wrote for the paper, but I don't think Duncan did. However, he often came to our discussions (we had first met my first day in NYC--on 12 September 1943, my 21st birthday). >From 1945 to 1955, fascism never came up between Pound & me. I noticed that the Social Credit papers were antisemitic (advertised the Protocols of the Elders of Zion!) but I discounted Pound's fascism as psychosis. He never *said* anything that seemed fascist and he was fine to Jewish friends of mine who visited him at St Elizabeths (tho they sd he got riled up & talked crazy when his Praetorian Guard of Southern boys showed up. He sent me books about Andrew Jackson and a bound copy of the _Democratic Review_ that contained some first publications by Hawthorne and a speech or 2 by Calhoun, which I didnt read, tho that must have been what EP wanted me to read. >From 1945 to 1955, then, we talked (on paper--I never met him) about poetry mainly, tho he did give suggestions for what the anarchist-pacifists shd look into (money, of course). (Those notes from EP seem to have been spirited away.) My attitude was that you don't kick an old men in his paranoia. But then, after reading several sections of the _Cantos_ that I hadnt read before, I brought the subject up (probably in March 1955). He denied being antisemitic ("I never bitched Louis [Zukofsky] or Mina Loy (Levy) [EP's paren.--near enough--her name was Loewy]!" & of course he hadnt. _Culture/Guide to Kuclchur_ was dedicated to Zukofsky as well as Bunting, (That's where I first saw their names.) I then pressed EP about the meanings of certain lines in the Cantos. I also mentioned that my father's name until about 1906 or 7 (when he was 18 or 19) was Michalowski. My father changed the name to MacLow, along with the other younger brothers of a group of 8--the older brothers changed it to Michalow-- a little before he came to the US in 1908, when he was 20. (I didn't know it then, when I mentioned it to Pound, that my father's name was Jacob MacLow when he came to the US. He changed it to Jackson MacLow at the urging of his Baltimore boss. He told me this in the early 1970s, when he'd forgotten he was hiding all his background. It seems that his Southern boss, who liked him a lot, told him: "Jack, I want to call you "Jackson," after our great general, Stonewal Jackson"! & so I became "Jackson MacLow, Jr. when I was born in 1922. (My parents, fleeing their Judaic background, gave me that very unJewish name. I separated the "Mac" from the "Low" & dropped the "Jr." in 7th or 8th grade.) At first Pound was in denial & defensive, but after I sent him, of all things, a page from Stein's _Wars I Have Seen_ in which she made it plain that though the Rothschilds may have controlled gold in the 19th century (I don't remember whether she mentioned the Sassoons & silver--one of EP's other hobbyhorses), they sure didn't do so now (i.e., in the 40s & earlier decades of the 20th century). I also mentioned that an acuaintance of mine, Gideon Strauss, who was then the first Israeli consul in New York, when he was given the job of setting up a branch of the Bank of Israel in New York, couldnt find a a single Jewish banker to work with him! The upshot, of course, was a blow-up. Pound's parting shot to me was "You'll do better as Michaelovitch than MacLow." So why am I still conflicted about the bastard? I think it's obvious. He wasn't *only* a fascist, and only a relatively small proportion of his poetry is fascist. (Of course this sounds like "she's only a *leetle bit* pregnant.") But could it be that what Pound told Allen Ginsberg when he visited him in Venice--that it was "a stupid suburban prejudice!"--was really what he thought it was? Could THAT have led to supporting Mussiolini & even Hitler? I think Major Douglas & his Social Credit (a version of money reform that was dripping with antisemitism--not *all* money reformers are antisemites--had as much to do with it as Pound's moving to Italy. (I think he met Douglas before leaving London.) The whole concatenation of Western "populism", the Silver Movement, &c., had as much to do with the turn toward fascism. (Ez had all too much in common with Pat Buchanan! Curiously, there were even hints of interest in Bolshevism around the time of _An Objectivist Anthology_!) The fact is that Pound could be a fascist and also write wonderful poetry--even *after* turning into a fascist! People are not integral. Certainly Pound wasnt (and neither am I). One is a different person at different times. What I referred to once--much to my surprise--as "the spirit of Ezra Pound" was not that of a fascist. Tho he may have thought that he was writing a populist-reformist anticapitalist-fascist montage when he was writing the Cantos (& I think even this was sporadic) turned out to be a collage poem such as few if any had written before. (Thanks, Charles, for ponting this out, despite the fact that you hate Pound much more than I do!) It certainly *doesnt* "all cohere!" (I won't even do more than mention, Roy Campbell, a fine poet who fought on the Franco side in Spain--more of a monarchist than a fascist-- and wrote not only some fine poems of his own but good translations of Baudelaire and St. John of the Cross. [I even have a faint suspicion that he was one of the first to translate Lorca--but I may be mistaken.] When I wrote _Words nd Ends from Ez_ in the early 1980s, I was fully aware of Pound's fascism & antisemitism, but I still found much of his poetry--the nonfascist parts--inpiring. I think many of us--especially my younger friends who are called "language poets"--learned a great deal from Pound. The whole process of juxtaposing disparate elements within the space (in all senses) of a poem was given to us primarily by him and his b^ete noir Stein! How he'd gnash at that sentence! I think the contributions of the dadaists & surrealists to this kind of poem-construction were minor compared to those of Pound. & he taught many *different* groups of poets--not only the imagists, the objectivists, and the projectivists--new ways of making poems and of making *verse*. It's incredible when one thinks of the lineages of poem-makers descending from EP! (Think, for instance, of Pound-Olson-Duncan . . . !) Think of all the ears he taught to hear (*helped* teach--remember how many of us learned as much or more from Stein--& also, in my case, in approaching hearing and the putting together of disparate things, Cage--especially his music of the early 1950s). Would he have been as great a teacher--even to those of us who came to reject as much as we accepted--if he'd not have been such a fucking authoritarian? Probably for some--but that authority thing is what often drives teachers--good & bad. One cannot obliterate Pound because he was in so many ways a fascist (in so many ways, he wasnt!) or Heidegger because he was for a very short time a Nazi (for a much much shorter a time than Pound was a fascist). I've recently learned that not only Arendt but also Celan! visited Heidegger in his late years. We cannot be totalists about poets and philosophers any more than we can be about society. Like Whitman, we all contain multitudes. The way I chose in the early 80s was to read through the Cantos by a deterministic (nonchance) nonintentional method--the "diastic reading-through text-selection method"-- which gleaned whole words & "ends" of words--everything from the last letter of a word to all the letters except the first--that successively had the letters of "Ezra Pound" in corresponding places (e.g., E'z and P's in the first place, Z's & O's in the second place etc). I spelled out the name diastically over and over until I found no more z's. (Thus the last section of the poem is a silence.) I tried to follow this method out exactly. But of course I made mistakes. Just as Pound projected a great anticapitalist montage, I attempted to write a completely deterministic nonintentional work by reading through _The Cantos_ to select words & ends "diastically". But chance intervened in the shape of mistakes. Luckily, I decided long ago, to accept my own mistakes (tho not others' typos!) once a poem is in print. I accept the fact that _Words nd Ends from Ez_ is a partially deterministc poem modified by completely unintended chance interventions (uncaught mistakes). I also accept the fact that others, such as Charles, find it valuable despite its deviations from its intent. (A curious word to use for the project of writing a deterministic *nonintentional* work!) I've gone on much too long already. Forgive me, fellow polisters! Jackson mac Low tarmac@nyc.pipeline.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 17:49:59 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: responses to my excesses OPEN LETTER TO SOME ASSHOLES since my last posting, i have received more than a few private mssgs, some of wch were nasty in a clever, sneering, condescending way. my feelings are hurt and i am pissed off. one of them called me "a charmingly naive amateur social critic" --- that one from the most pleasant mssg. to the senders who were kind, i say thanks plain and simple, for making me feel welcome. to the senders who were exceptionally kind, i have sent seperate mail. in all fairness i have to say that charles bernstein was very tactful and fair abt telling me i'd breached etiquette. he didn't make it seem like i'd done anything wrong. thanks, charles. to answer the others, who in their pride wldn't admit to frailty even to save their paltry positions or to obtain tenure, allow me to direct them to Blake's _Milton_, plates 40 and 41. think abt that one, boys and girls, while counting yr crisp degrees. finally, allow me to quote this poem by tom pickard : City Council Poem The Lord Sherrif's gold chain sparkles w/ the names of hanged men whose lifeless limbs dangle and decorate his chins. He has the honour to be present at the scaffold as his predecessors were. Is it their heavy memory which causes your official brow to bead? Your sloppy mouth waters at such entertaining deeds. You said, when I asked you what your powers were that you could lock me up if I caused some disturbance in the town but who, proud pig, if you chose to knock me down would lock you up? love, chris "i have no gun but i can spit" daniels ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.18.96 5:22:26 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 18:40:11 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: more on bunting i'd like to clarify the bunting issue a little: first, by quoting IN FULL the poem "On the Fly-Leaf of Pound's Cantos" --- wch bunting wrote in 1949, yes, 1949! and where, tell me, where was pound in 1949 and what was the literary world saying abt him? There are the Alps. What is there to say about them? They don't make sense. Fatal glaciers, crags cranks climb, jumbled boulder and weed, pasture and boulder, scree, _et l'on entend_, maybe, _le refrain joyeux et leger_. Who knows what the ice will have scraped on the rock it is moving? There they are, you will have to go a long way round if you want to avoid them. It takes some getting used to. There are the Alps, fools! Sit down and wait for them to crumble! secondly: "ezra was certainly confused, but he was never a fascist" (this may be misquoted, but it's what i remember bunting saying) thirdly, didn't bunting work for the oss or some such? ah, well, guess that means i can't read my favorite poet anymore sit down and wait for them to crumble ... later --- chris ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.18.96 6:40:11 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 22:12:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tardos Mac Low Subject: Pound one last sentence More to the point than most of what I said in my long memoir is the dedication of _Words nd Ends from Ez_: "in memoriam . . . "freeing the sparks" Jackson Mac Low tarmac@nyc.pipeline ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 22:22:47 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Black Writers Conference on the Web [begin forwarded message] ------------------------------- Date: Mon Mar 18 17:26:37 1996 From: kanter@tmn.com Subject: Black Writers Conference on the Web BLACK WRITERS CONFERENCE TO INCLUDE INTERACTIVE INTERNET COMPONENT Medgar Evers College of the City University of New York will host the Fourth National Black Writers Conference in Brooklyn, NY on March 21-24. The theme is BLACK LITERATURE IN THE 90'S: A RENAISSANCE TO END ALL RENAISSANCES? A publicly accessible interactive version of the conference, hosted by Arts Wire, will be available on the World Wide Web at http://artsnet.heinz.cmu.edu/NBWC Those who can't make it to Brooklyn can respond to these issues on this World Wide Web version, implemented on Arts Wire's future virtual home -- the server at The Heinz School at Carnegie Mellon University. "We are pleased to announce that The Black Writers Conference will act as the kick-off of a long-term collaboration with the School of Arts Management at CMU," says Arts Wire Director, Joe Matuzak. "We believe there are unique and exciting opportunities for both Arts Wire and the Master of Arts Management Program in this association, and that both Arts Wire participants and CMU students can benefit substantially from this association. More details will be made available as they are settled." Keynote speakers for the conference are Paule Marshall and Amiri Baraka. Marita Golden, Terry McMillan, Bebe Moore Campbell, Walter Mosley, Arthur Flowers, Thulani Davis, and others will participate in a series of panels that include: *Choosing Exile: Black Writers from the Harlem *Renaissance to the Black Arts Movement *Choosing Exile: Black Writers from the Black Arts *Movement to the Renaissance of the 1990's *Presuming the Universality of the Black Experience *Politically Correct in a Politically Incorrect World *Black Literature: Who are the Readers? *Black Literature: The Politics of Publishing The Institute for African American Affairs at New York University will host Paule Marshall's keynote address at NYU on March 22, 1996. All panel discussions, Baraka's keynote address and Remarks by Walter Mosley will be held at Medgar Evers College. The web version includes all the panels listed above. It is free! Not only will Web visitors be able to read reports and transcripts uploaded to the Web during the face-to-face conference, but also they will be able to participate in discussions of issues raised by the conference panels. To join the conference, go to http://artsnet.heinz.cmu.edu/NBWC and follow the registration procedure. The face-to-face event received funding from the National Endowment for the Humanities. The Web version was funded by the Reed Foundation and implemented by Arts Wire's Beth Kanter, Barry Lasky and Tommer Peterson. It uses a version of WebCaucus, a web-based interface, that was developed for Arts Wire's Conferencing system. For information about the Fourth National Black Writers, contact: Dr. Elizabeth Nunez, 1650 Bedford Avenue, Brooklyn, NY 11225; tel: (718) 270-5049 E-mail ELNME@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU To participate in the web version of the conference, contact: bwc@artsnet.heinz.cmu.edu ------------------------------- [end of forwarded message] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 22:41:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tardos Mac Low Subject: corrected notice for Big Allis reading There was an partially erroneous posting of this information recently. Unless al message *identical* to this was posted by someone else earlier today, 18 March 1996, this is a corrected version of the earlier message: To: poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu Subject: Big Allis reading at Segue Space, 23 May 1996 From: tarmac@nyc.pipeline.com(Tardos Mac Low) X-PipeUser: tarmac X-PipeHub: nyc.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Tardos Mac Low) X-Mailer: The Pipeline v3.4.0 There was a partially erroneous posting of the following information to the poetics list recently. Unless a message identical to the following was posted today, 18 March 1996, this is a correction of the earlier posting of this information. Melanie Neilson asked to have this updated notice & list posted: Re: _Big Allis_ #7 publication/ celebration evening of readings/performances on Thursday 23 May 1996 7:30 pm at the Segue Performance Space 303 East 8th Street, New York, New York 10009 Participants: 1. BRUCE ANDREWS 2. ULLA DYDO 3. ROB FITTERMAN 4. KIM ROSENFIELD 5. JULIANA SPAHR 6. JENA OSMAN 7. JOAN RETALLACK 8. ABBY CHILD 9. DEIRDRE KOVAC 10. ELIZABETH FODASKI 11. JEAN FOOS AND DIRK ROWNTREE 12. JACKSON MAC LOW 13. ANNE TARDOS 14. MARTINE BELLEN 15. HANNAH WEINER 16. GAIL SHER 17. PETER SEATON 18. RACHEL CAREAU and others Jackson Mac Low (for Melanie Neilson) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 20:03:47 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: my excesses In-Reply-To: I'm not quite sure what that means... Chris is sending too much? Are we on a quota? I thought we sent as we felt moved. Could someone clarify? Gab. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 22:17:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Quartermain Subject: Re: Ghost books Kevin Killian wrote, some time ago (11 March) >Okay, ghost books - probably hundreds (dozens?) of readers have wondered >whatever became of Robin Blaser's book of "Astonishments," after his >announcement of it twenty years ago at the end of Jack Spicer's "Collected >Books." Peter, you are in as good a position as anyone to answer that >question!! (There was also Stan's announcement-was it in 1970?-of the >imminent publication of Spicer's "Vancouver Lectures.") Kevin -- it took me a little while to track all this down ACCURATELY, but I can report a) Spicer's Vancouver Lectures are being edited by Peter Gizzi and I believe are even as i write ready to be sent to a publisher (but I know not who the publisher might be) b) Blaser's collected essays have been more or less under the editorship of Stan Persky for a number of years, but Stan's energies have been distracted from this project. Robin and I discussed this today and both agree that Stan should be encouraged to take it up again. c) ASTONISHMENTS --a small section was transcribed by Daphne Marlatt and then published in _The Capilano Review_ some years ago. The series itself was never completed, at least in the form Robin intended, and is currently beiing transcribed and edited by Miriam Nichols (who is also, by the way, editing a book of essays on Blaser's poetry). When completed, they will become a selection of the (ever to-be-published?) book of RB's essays, since they are not (says Robin) long enought to be a book in themselves. IF, on the other hand, half a dozen folk would interview Robin, then _Astonishments_ and let's call them _Blandishments_ might make a really nice book. I too would like this stuff to come out. Especially the essays. --- And a propos my original ghost titles posting, I am so intrigued by that title FOUR GRAPES that I want to write the book myself. I wonder what it should have in it. Sorry to bear such unhelpful news, Kevin. XXX Peter + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Peter Quartermain 128 East 23rd Avenue Vancouver B.C. Canada V5V 1X2 Voice and fax: 604 876 8061 + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 22:39:39 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: my excesses gab --- it has to do w/ the listserv setting a limit to the amt of traffic per diem or something --- not sure i understand it myself --- i don't see it as a problem, anyway. chris ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.18.96 10:39:39 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 22:56:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Lenore Kandel In-Reply-To: <199603110702.CAA10237@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Somebody may have answered this backchan. -- but here's an answer to the Kandel query -- Quickest place to find her poetry is in her Grove Press book, _Word Alchemy_, which remains available in many libraries and often turns up in used book stores -- The more notorious _Love Book_ is harder to find copies of -- Kandel and Lew Welch turn up in slightly altered versions of the,selves in Kerouacs _Big Sur_, under the names Romona Swartz & David Wain. If your library has a copy of _Literary San Francisco_ by Ferlinghetti & Peters (1980, City Lights with Harper & Row), you can find an interesting photo of Kandel sitiing with McClure, Murao and others in The Cellar club listening to a poetry and jazz performance by Rexroth -- I don't know if these things are preserbed anywhere, but the old Joe Pynne (Pine?) television show, grand-daddy to Rush and others, had kandel on as a guest for Joe to attack one week in the sixties -- she read some poems & did a good job of turning Joe's taunts back upon him -- This in the wake of the _Love Book_ banning episode -- San Francisco Poetry Center Archive probably has tape of her ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 02:08:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: my excesses the listserver sets a limit to the number of messages every day? seems loopy to me, although the question is really irrelevant to me. i just canned 40 some messages from this list simply because i don't have the time to read them. i woulda just pecked my way through, but there were too many threads i did want to read. you'll all just have to beget your wisdom unto me at a less busy time of year :-) eryque ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 23:42:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Feminist Measures At 10:18 AM 3/18/96, Rachel Blau DuPlessis wrote: >Those who want to follow thru on Pound and women >might look at e.g. me, or Rachel Blau DuPlessis, "Corpses of Poesy:some >modern poets and some gender narratives of lyric," in Lynn Keller and Cri- >stanne Miller, ed. Feminist Measures: Soundings in Poetry and Theory from >Univ of Michigan Press, 1995. Hi Rachel, it's Dodie Bellamy here. Well, I was in San Francisco's Mission District this afternoon, and being your number one fan, I stopped into Modern Times bookstore to see if I could find a copy of _Feminist Measures_. I didn't find a copy, but I did find Kaja Silverman's _The Threshold of the Visible World_, which looks more fun than _The Acoustic Mirror_, so I took it up to the counter to buy it. Even though I'd thoroughly checked out the Women and the Theory sections, I thought it silly not to ask if they had _Feminist Measures_--just to be sure. The problem is that since I'm from Indiana I pronounce "measure" as may-zhure--something I never noticed everybody didn't do until Kevin pointed it out to me a couple years ago. Since, then of course, I've realized that everybody else in the world says measure to rhyme with pleasure. But, there's no way I can make myself say anything but "may-zhure" without feeling false to my roots and a bit pretentious--similarly I can only pronounce aunt as ant. So, anyway, the snootiest clerk in all of San Francisco was at the counter at Modern Times, and as I paid for the Silverman book, I timidly asked, "Do you have Feminist May-zhures?" "What?!!!" he screeched. "You don't mean 'meshures' by any chance?" I nodded and said I thought it was published in 1995. He looked it up in his computer and turned to me and exclaimed with glee, "It was 1994 and no we don't have it." He said it was listed as a textbook and wouldn't have even been shown to him. I guess I'll have to go to Berkeley if I want to look before I leap. Dear Rachel, I turn to you for advice, are you ever too shy to ask for something at the counter--or are you always heroic, the way I think of you? I feel like steeling up the nerve to ask for your book made me more of a feminist than I've ever been. Love, Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:44:36 +0300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ada Aharoni Subject: Re: Pound & Man at Yale In-Reply-To: <960318125931_171324135@emout07.mail.aol.com> Thanks Charles for your account of the Yale "Pound" deepfreeze. I hope it will help to bring home to conscientious critics\poets that Pound is indeed a "dead horse." Like Maria, "what i learned was important, shocking and helpful." best, Ada ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 02:55:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: my excesses In-Reply-To: <199603190825.DAA09028@shell.acmenet.net> You can of course reset the message height anywhere you want. About a month ago Cybermind which I co-mod reached over the limit at 100; I freed it for another 17 that day - Alan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 00:30:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mikl-em Subject: Re: Kandel Quoth Alden on Kandel: > San Francisco Poetry Center Archive probably has tape of her which is true indeed: 3/17/76 reading with Diane Di Prima, intro-ed by Lewis MacAdams it includes a Q&A session. I've lost track of who sent the Query, but I'm volunteering at the center--if you aren't in the area or don't know how to reach the center, just drop me a line and I'll steer you to the archives, re: gards, mkl. mike@taylor.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:37:58 GMT-5 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Peters Organization: Indiana State University Subject: Espanol Could anyone direct me to some exciting contemporary poetry in Spanish? I need to improve my reading skills, and would love to discover and use some recent poetry in the process. Thanks, Mark "Look for discrepencies in your totem pole." --Kit Robinson ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:18:53 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R I Caddel Subject: Re: more on bunting In-Reply-To: <199603190504.FAA08992@hermes.dur.ac.uk> Thanks, Chris, for quoting the whole Bunting poem, inc. date. Those Alps still ain't crumbled, though the fools are still waiting and the cranks are still climbing (it seems to me increasingly evident that there's a direct link between the study of Pound's social economics and insanity). We have, surely to try to find some way to do as BB did, revile the politics of intolerance - especially where it lives on around us - and yet learn from the poetry, without which, as others have pointed out, we'd all be much poorer. What's the "oss"? I can't lay hands on the quote of BB on EP you give, but for what it's worth I do recall (roughly) the conversations we naive students had with him c. 1968 (we nobbled him several times on this one, so the following is a kind of digest of his soundbites, as I remember them. He was remarkably consistent in his responses - Diplomatic Service training, I guess): Naive Students: Why was Pound a fascist? Bunting: You must remember that he became increasingly unstable throughout the 1930s, as he found himself isolated from friends and literary contemporaries. He was always susceptible to crackpot ideas, and that made him vulnerable to a direct wooing from Mussolini. Heaven knows why M. thought it worth his while. NS: Why was Pound an antisemite? B: That was a very fashionable fad at the time, which a lot of people absorbed to a greater or lesser degree without recognising it. Because it seemed like a convenient solution to Pound's great economic headaches, he swallowed it unquestioningly - to his detriment. It lead him to be very hurtful to many of his friends, for which I remonstrated with him. NS: Have his views changed since the war? B: Couldn't say. His breakdown, when it inevitably came, was so complete as to make any real judgement difficult. Obviously eddies of his old preoccupations surface in fragments from time to time, but his main concern these days seems to be to find some sort of peace, mostly in silence. [nb - this was about the time drafts&fragments appeared] NS: If he's a fascist antisemite, shouldn't we refuse to read him? B: Your teachers would probably thank you, since you'd be sparing them a lot of difficult work. But you'd also be depriving yourselves of some of the best poetry of this century or many others, and of the fullest poetic toolkit which any young poet could have at his [sic] disposal. Refusal to learn from Pound's work, complex and flawed as it is, seems exceedingly dull-witted. [Kids! don't quote this in your theses! It's just the way I remember it... For what it's worth I buy quite a lot of BB's line on this - particularly that no competent poet or critic can simply dismiss Pound unread. You have to make the effort, and it has very great rewards. Equally, I was aware at the time that BB was oversimplifying EP's fascism and antisemitism - perhaps for his rather dim audience - in a way that won't do in the end. That has to be tackled too. It's a tricky old world. Sorry for taking up so much space/time on this... RC] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:18:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen or Peter Landers Subject: Peter Landers at Writers & Books Thursday hi gang, if you're in the rochester area on thursday, stop over to W&B for my reading call them at (716) 473-2590 for more details here's a teaser... ______________________________________________ I watch TV . warty, wrinkled skinhead pronounced: di-he-dral or flex cathartic deathbird legs dover cliff white by shit spreaded silvery primaries (splayed, I'd say) soars, eyesore, . follows ivory nose to roadkill; tears at (vultus) sun-ripe meat. ______________________________________________ cya, Peter ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:21:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Feminist Measures hiya dodie, the university press books bkstore in berkeley oughta have university press books. would that they were all "textbooks," then we'd have enough $ to really matronize the arts as we'd like... lovies,, maria d ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:48:15 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marjorie Perloff Subject: Re: Pound & Fascism In-Reply-To: <199603190940.EAA19098@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Even as so many members of this list are excoriating Pound, we have, right now, a fascist in our midst named Pat Buchanan who has managed to get 30% of the Republican Primary vote even though (or perhaps because of) he makes open statements that are antisemitic, homophobic, and racist. Just the other day on TV (maybe CNN) a farmer in Georgia was being interviewed as to who he was planning to vote for. He said, "I think I'll vote for Pat Buchanan because he feels the way I do about the niggers." This on CNN. This is the world we live in--a world where many could hardly believe Furman said the "N word" and yet Buchanan gets away with this every day. So I think if you want to fight Fascism you have to begin at home. But as for Pound, I think many of the postings here have been quite off the mark. Reading Walter Benn Michaels' OUR AMERICA, about racial attitudes and nativism in the 20s, I was reminded what a horrible anti-semimite dear old Ernest Hemingway was, with that charming portrait of Robert Cohen in SUN ALSO RISES. It has recently been shown how anti-semitic HD was, in her notebooks for TRIBUTE TO FREUD. In fact, anti-Semitism and racism were as Michaels's shows, part and parcel of 20s postWWI culture. Very few writers escaped it. We have to try to understand why and not say let's get rid of Ezra Pound, who also happens to be one of the greatest poets of the 20th C. I still believe--and I speak here as a refugee from Hitler whose family fled the morning of the Anschluss (March 12, 1938) of Austria--that Pound's "fascism"--most of it completely nonsensical, juvenile, and failing to understand how government works--was not nearly as dangerous as Heidegger's willed, conscious, perfectly "reasoned" Fascism. to read what Heidegger did at his own university in order to get rid of colleagues who might have Jewish blood boggles the mind. And then there's Paul de Man. As Eliot Weinberger wrote in SULFUR some years ago, Pound's iniquities are not on the same scale because who the hell listened to Pound's message?? Whereas Heidegger/de Man influenced generations of students. Jerry McGann has an essay in CRITICAL INQUIRY (a few years back) where he makes an eloquent case for the Cantos as the tragic poem of the 20th C in that it sums up so many of the terrible ideologies, anxieties, prejudices around. To call it tragic may go too far, but Jerry is right. And without the Cantos, I maintain there would have been no Black Mt, no Objectivism,no Ethnopoetics (Rothenberg) and performance poetry like Mac Low's, and so on down the line. So to say, as some people have on this list, let's just get rid of Pound, is ridiculous. And if you only read people whose ideology you approve of, who shall 'scape whipping? What about a Stalinist like Neruda? Is he to be totally excused for supporting his Dictator? Shall we not read Wyndham Lewis, a worse fascist than Pound but also an incredible writer? Let's see, who's left? What about the homophobic, antisemitic passages in Baraka? And so on. It all comes back to the vexed question about the relation of poetry to politics and that's a question that should be hotly discussed in a larger theoretical way than it is today. Robert Duncan has wonderful comments on the issue in his correspondence (not yet published) with Denise Levertov. But whatever the relationship, it can't be Love my Politics, love my poetry. Marjorie Perloff ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:56:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: main Subject: Re: Espanol In-Reply-To: <4B45AB73A3@coral.indstate.edu> On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, Mark Peters wrote: > Could anyone direct me to some exciting contemporary poetry in > Spanish? I need to improve my reading skills, and would love to > discover and use some recent poetry in the process. > > Thanks, > Mark > > "Look for discrepencies in your totem pole." > > --Kit Robinson > see _Mandorla_ mag (ed. Roberto Tejada / Apartado postal 5.366 / Mexico D.F. / Mexico 06500): olson, oppen, niedecker, etc. translated, and many contemporary writers in spanish. dan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:07:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tosh berman Subject: Re: Pound & Fascism > >Marjorie Perloff I just want to say "yeah" to Marjorie's comments regarding Fascism. Thank you Marjorie! tosh ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:09:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Scroggins without Limits In-Reply-To: <199603190940.EAA19098@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Mark -- Please post notice here as soon as that book is available! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:31:26 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Pound & Fascism first, chiming in here to say that i've been learning much---MUCH---about politics & poetry just from reading the various posts on this list re pound... and much about various (personal and public) histories, too... thanx to marjorie, jerry, jackson, ric, chris, everybody else (and chris---i'm sorry to hear of your backchannel struggles, i would have hoped for more generosity than it seems you've been shown by several poetics subscribers)... love to see the duncan/levertov correspondence marjorie mentions, to see whether and how the revelatory aspect of form to which levertov was committed (and with which duncan is so engrossed) finds a political turning point... and as to politics & poetry, in particular: this latter constitutes for me the slippery slope on which i find mself most often these days, both as a poet and in a more general intellectual sense... i mean, the questions i find mself asking most frequently, and with most urgency, and with such tentativeness, are those that turn on this axis... which is not to deny aesthetic questions per se but simply to situate same... it seems to me that the mere/sheer tendentiousness of politics & poetry as a couple, and the degree of controversy sustained whenever this couple surfaces as such, is itself a litmus of how charged it is, how pertinent it is to our discussions... i understand that many will feel a (territorial, discursive) claim being made here, but i really do believe that we have perhaps more to learn by plumbing the aesthetic/poetic in such terms than perhaps any other---at least in these times, in these places... all best// joe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:43:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: youth against fascism Our landlord here at Teachers & Writers is wearing a new kind of shoe that sounds like tap shoes. Increasing numbers of Americans buy their shoes through the mail. Btw, I'm reading with Leslie Scalapino tomorrow (Wednesday @ 8 p.m.) at the Poetry Project at St. Marks Church, 131 E 10th, NYC. --Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:52:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: switzerland answering jordon's question, there's one recently read book especially worth mentioning. it was recommended by a friend whose recommendations have always been good, but this was a book published by graywolf, collecting work that first appeared in places like ploughshares and the kenyon review, and was endorsed who are very fine writers but who live, with ploughshares and greywolf and kenyon, in a different universe. and the writer teaches at harvard. hmmmm. it sounded more like a career than a poet. but you never know, and in fact book and poet turned out to be pretty terrific, so i pass this on. the writer is carl phillips and the book is cortege. yes, there is a great respect for convention and finish, but the poems are authentic and some are quite strong: see, for example, "the reach." or look at "toys," for example; not as fine as "the reach," i think, but it puts that old chestnut, roethke's "dolor," to shame. oh, that's not fair: roethke's poem is good; still, Phillips's is better. clearly many who are likely to read this would find phillips much too finished and rounded, and any surviving language people, should there by any, would have problems here, too. it's traditional in many ways, but there are many authentic moments here. yes: authentic, not a word we are supposed to use anymore, but phillips proves that it still works. -ed ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:01:45 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: youth against fascism In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:43:57 -0500 from On Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:43:57 -0500 Jordan Davis said: >Our landlord here at Teachers & Writers is wearing a new kind of shoe that >sounds like tap shoes. Increasing numbers of Americans buy their shoes >through the mail. Oh-oh. Pretty soon they'll be tapping our phones & metering our feet. How neo can you get. Call out the minutemen! - HG ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:25:20 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: FW: Re: more on bunting /perloff's post --- On Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:18:53 +0000 R I Caddel wrote: >Thanks, Chris, for quoting the whole Bunting poem, inc. date. Those Alps >still ain't crumbled, though the fools are still waiting and the cranks >are still climbing (it seems to me increasingly evident that there's a >direct link between the study of Pound's social economics and insanity). >We have, surely to try to find some way to do as BB did, revile the >politics of intolerance - especially where it lives on around us - and yet >learn from the poetry, without which, as others have pointed out, we'd all >be much poorer. > >What's the "oss"? OSS = overseas service, wch later became intelligence agencies all over europe and america, if i'm not mistaken. i have since looked it up and find that bunting never worked for OSS itself (as far as we know), but he was involved in some espionage work in iran during the war and after, some if it shady (if not suspect) > >I can't lay hands on the quote of BB on EP you give, but for what it's the quote is from a filmed interview i saw in a pbs show abt pound >worth I do recall (roughly) the conversations we naive students had with >him c. 1968 (we nobbled him several times on this one, so the following is >a kind of digest of his soundbites, as I remember them. He was remarkably >consistent in his responses - Diplomatic Service training, I guess): > >Naive Students: Why was Pound a fascist? > >Bunting: You must remember that he became increasingly unstable throughout >the 1930s, as he found himself isolated from friends and literary >contemporaries. He was always susceptible to crackpot ideas, and that >made him vulnerable to a direct wooing from Mussolini. Heaven knows why M. >thought it worth his while. i don't know abt more recent knowledge, but as far as i know, pound's only real contact w/ mussolini, besides the many letters he sent, is described in The Pound Era: pound waited for quite a while to see mussolini. mussolini said that pound's poetry was "divertenti". pound thought mussolini was a hell of a guy for seeing that poetry shld delight! how sad and ironic that seems to me. was there really that much more direct wooing? i seem to think pound was the woo-er ... >NS: Why was Pound an antisemite? > >B: That was a very fashionable fad at the time, which a lot of people >absorbed to a greater or lesser degree without recognising it. Because it >seemed like a convenient solution to Pound's great economic headaches, he >swallowed it unquestioningly - to his detriment. It lead him to be very >hurtful to many of his friends, for which I remonstrated with him. > >NS: Have his views changed since the war? > >B: Couldn't say. His breakdown, when it inevitably came, was so complete >as to make any real judgement difficult. Obviously eddies of his old >preoccupations surface in fragments from time to time, but his main >concern these days seems to be to find some sort of peace, mostly in >silence. [nb - this was about the time drafts&fragments appeared] > >NS: If he's a fascist antisemite, shouldn't we refuse to read him? > >B: Your teachers would probably thank you, since you'd be sparing them a >lot of difficult work. But you'd also be depriving yourselves of some of >the best poetry of this century or many others, and of the fullest poetic >toolkit which any young poet could have at his [sic] disposal. Refusal to >learn from Pound's work, complex and flawed as it is, seems exceedingly >dull-witted. > >[Kids! don't quote this in your theses! It's just the way I remember it... >For what it's worth I buy quite a lot of BB's line on this - particularly >that no competent poet or critic can simply dismiss Pound unread. You have >to make the effort, and it has very great rewards. Equally, I was aware at >the time that BB was oversimplifying EP's fascism and antisemitism - >perhaps for his rather dim audience - in a way that won't do in the end. >That has to be tackled too. It's a tricky old world. Sorry for taking up >so much space/time on this... RC] > i want to tack on a response to marjorie perloff's recent posting: marjorie --- i'd have to add to your list hugh macdiarmid, whose hymns to stalin have always confused me, and members of the tel quel group and the situationist international who showed strong maoist leanings in the sixties. also the whole 60's thing in america wch to my mind was very suspect w/ it's usually uninformed embracing (appropriation) of age-old religious customs, native american garb --- and the brutal sexism and intolerance shown by the yippies and others, the call for violence and murder --- the hell's angels were folk heroes at the time --- all this in spite of the very good things wch came out of the sixties and the whole ufo craze --- now this amazes me --- were the inca and maya and egyptians so primitive that they cldn't have figured out how to build what they built? is the fact that the triangle is infinitely more stable than the square so incredibly hard for the "primitive" mind to grasp that they needed extraterrestrial help to see it? buckminster fuller figured it out for himself when he was a kid --- but he was born in america-descendent-of- europe, source of all progress and technology --- no wonder! oh that whole insistence on extraterrestrial technological aid strikes me as plain old thick-headed condescending chauvinism if not racism and also that we live in very confusing times and must do the best we can to be humane later --- chris ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.19.96 9:25:20 am q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:42:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jeffrey W. Timmons" Subject: Re: Pound & Fascism Comments: To: Marjorie Perloff In-Reply-To: I haven't posted in a while and have only attended half-heartedly to this thread so please disregard my comments if they are repetitive of what has gone before them. . . . . Following several recent posts on this thread perhaps the appropriate question to ask is how we are to grapple/read/theorize our relationship with poetry/writing of persons who's politics are less than delicious. What, that is, or how are we to approach the work when we find it or its writer involved with attitudes/beliefs/views we find anthema? Richard Rorty in contingecy, irony and solidarity attempts to distinguish (in his reading of heidegger in particular) between the person and the writing; but i think this is somewhat inadequate--though it appeals to my new critical/poststructural sensibilities. Afterall, I am deeply interested in the person as well as the poetry/writing. I, for one, think that in the case of pound that his views complicate our understanding/reading of the poetry in not altogether unproductive ways; that is, if nothing else they allow readers access to issues--as Marjorie points out--that were part of a set of attitudes generally part of many of the major figures of pound's era [hope I am repeating this correctly]. Basically, then, such questionable politics, rather than being an argument for abandoning the writer, actually makes the case for engagement with issues that are even more pressing and contemporary (as Marjorie also points out). I'm not advocating political activism (though I'm not ruling it out either) in the classroom (or wherever your reading takes place), but I am suggesting that an engagment with the writer's polictics can be a productive source of discussion. Cheers y'all, Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:49:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: SPT: Island of Lost Souls One Night Only "Island of Lost Souls" a play by Kevin Killian directed by Wayne Smith A Benefit for Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at the Lab 2948 16th Street, San Francisco Thursday, March 28, 8:00 p.m. $5-10, sliding scale For reservations leave a message at 415/281-9338 "Island of Lost Souls" is Long Island where, in the late 60's, one valiant woman tries to hold her family's life together with only brains and belief in God to aid her. Will Gabrielle Kerouac be able to protect the befuddled genius of her son, Jack, from Hollywood producers wishing to make a musical out of his masterpiece, On the Road, a book she herself wrote while he was passed out? Will she find love in the arms of charming heiress Sunny von Bulow, or lose her to the sinister machinations of her depraved husband Claus? Starring Phoebe Gloeckner Barbara Guest Glen Helfand Clifford Hengst Scott Hewicker Philip Horvitz Kevin Killian Hoa Nguyen Rex Ray Michelle Rolllman Leslie Scalapino Alicia Wing SUNNY. I'm fading, but I'm still stunning, like a loud clap of hands in a forest. - Maybe I shouldn't have eaten all that candy. I feel my blood sugar rising, turning my blue blood white, like the blue frost that makes snow flake. It was chocolate done me in, a victim of Whitman and Godiva. Come, Gabrielle, bring your Canadian freshness to this overheated place of fat! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:50:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: SPT: Rae Armantrout & Fanny Howe Small Press Traffic and the Poetics Department of New College present Rae Armantrout and Fanny Howe Saturday, March 30, 7:30 p.m. at the New College Cultural Center 766 Valencia Street San Francisco $5 Rae Armantrout has published six book of poetry, most recently Made to Seem and Necromance from Sun and Moon press. Her poems have been included in numerous anthologies, including Out of Everywhere, Postmodern American Poetry: A Norton Anthology and From the Other Side of the Century. Her work has recently appeared in the Bay Area magazines New American Writing, Prosodia and Avec. Writing in Spin magazine, Lydia Davis has called Armantrout's poetry "brilliantly exact and never obvious." Rae Armantrout teaches writing at U.C. San Diego. Fanny Howe is the author of numerous books of poetry, including, most recently, The End (Littoral) and O'Clock (Reality Street, England). Her most recent novels are Saving History and The Deep North (Sun & Moon). A trilogy of her earlier novels will be released in 1996. Her video work includes What Nobody Saw, Simone Weil Avenue and the award winning Be AGain. She teaches at the University of California at San Diego. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 07:49:30 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: more on bunting Yes, Chris, abandon Pound: stick to nourishing thoughts. There must be a poet somewhere who propounds nourishing thoughts, some clean poet somewhere, King David? No? Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 07:56:46 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: dadaists & mamaists My son Stefan's first word was "yuk". He called me Tony and his mother Judi until he was about five. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:15:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Re: Kundera joe Joe, nice poster on dot EDU, which reminded me of the recent voyager wherein a Q wants to commit suicide to shake up the continuum. whatever happened to cya? rtfm? Bill ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:39:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: Re: SPT: Island of Lost Souls At 10:49 AM 3/19/96 -0800, Kevin Killian wrote: >One Night Only >"Island of Lost Souls" >a play by Kevin Killian >directed by Wayne Smith >A Benefit for Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center >at the Lab >2948 16th Street, San Francisco >Thursday, March 28, 8:00 p.m. >$5-10, sliding scale >For reservations leave a message at 415/281-9338 God, Kevin, sounds like a riot. Is there any way for po' easterners to get a look at the script? e ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Emily Lloyd emilyl@mail.erols.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:51:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Smith Subject: Re: dadaists & mamaists There's surely more recent articles on the subject, but Roman Jakobson has a piece, "Why 'Moma' & 'Papa'?," collected in _On Language_ where as I recall, he says that labial & dental (both stopped) consonants & open vowels are the earliest phonemic acquisitions & that combinations of consonants & vowels which provide maximum contrast would first be used. That doesn't explain gendering, which I suspect must be taught. Charles Smith ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:27:27 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Tabbi Subject: announcement: electronic book review #2 The second issue of the *electronic book review*, on "cultural criticism and the politics of selling out," is available for viewing at http://www.altx.com/ebr. It includes an essay by Joe Amato, which is partly about his experience contributing to the Poetics list, as well as essays by Poetics contributors Marjorie Perloff and Matt Kirschenbaum. Joe Tabbi editor, ebr ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:20:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: may-sures & misc Dodie: I like your measure, esp. if pleasure can be pronounced play-sure. I found the book at Borders, & it's well worth having, both for Rachel's "Corpses of Poesy" and Joan Retallack's ":RE:THINKING:LITERARY:FEMINISM." After reading Rachel's essay, I'd like to take back my months-old Marianne Moore-bashing comment, please. Her essay's also a good place to start if, like me, you're interested in the recent Mina Loy renaissance. Chris (Daniels): I don't know what the whos I don't know have been telling you about your posts, but one way to foil the powers that be who restrict numbers of messages is to answer a number of posts in one large message. Meaning, rather than respond to a post by me and then a post by Aldon in 2 separate posts, you'd do one like: Emily: I completely disagree with you :) Aldon: etc. So this post is an example. :) Gwyn: (forgive the non-backchanneling, but I'm modeling here) please let me know, bc, how I can get a copy of that chapbook of yours. btw, when Chris Stroffolino speaks of a malaise/fear of taking a stance, how does that speak to Chris Daniels' I'm pissed post? Has CD been criticized for taking a stance, or taking a stance "unsophisticatedly," or taking too many stances or...? If he IS "charmingly naive," does that mean (as his post on backchannel messages he's received would seem to indicate) he's not welcome here? Speaking a little defensively as someone aware of her own naivete, if not her charm. e ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Emily Lloyd emilyl@mail.erols.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:48:50 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Brannen Subject: Re: Derrida's Style Peter, I'd love to get a copy of the tape of Derrida reading _Feu la cendre_ with Carole Bousquet. Where might I obtain a copy? Thanks, Jonathan Brannen >I've been meditating the issue of Derrida's style, in response to an >earlier posting, i.e. whether his style is in some sense a choice in >relation to a possible audience. > >First, not to sound too pedantic, but any comments about his style would >have to be directed to the French texts, *not* the translations. My own >view is that he is one of the great stylists in the French language *ever.* >In my own work with Derrida's text, I find that I am drawn in and engaged >in a textual space that is unique and challenging, on a number of levels. > >Derrida has also been involved in a self-commentary, especially in texts >like _Cinders_, available in bilingual edition, that approaches a kind of >poetics of the text. The tape of Derrida reading _Feu la cendre_ with >French actress Carole Bousquet (des femmes, 1986) is a real experience. >His centering on the phrase *il y'a la (accent grave) cendre* [literally: >there is ash there] reverberates in many ways consonant with the most >interesting work (I think of Susan Howe, among others) investigating >historically charged linguistic expression. > >I've already referenced my recent book on Derrida, _Deconstruction and >the Ethical Turn_. For a more recent work in progress, I would invite >list members to visit my Towson home page and the paper there: >Deconstruction and the Question of Violence. > >http://www.towson.edu/~baker > >Though not specifically on topics of poetics, it does take a kind of >cultural studies approach to issues of violence in reading of Derrida's >essay "Force of Law" in juxtaposition to _Pulp Fiction_. Backchannel >commentary welcome. > >Peter Baker > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:48:54 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Brannen Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 11 Mar 1996 to 12 Mar 1996 Chris, Membrane Press (P.O. Box 11601 - Shorewood, Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53211) has published Thomas A. Clark in the states during the 1980s (to some degree reprints of Moschatel publications, in any case lovely). SPD, in spite of its regional leanings, has carried, at times, Clark's perfect bound books (i.e. those from Coach House, Polygon and Jargon), and may still have some in stock. Probably the best source for Clark's books in the U.S. is Woodland Pattern, a bookstore in Milwaukee which doesn't issue a catalog but does accept mail orders (P.O. Box 92081, Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53202). Woodland Pattern, has my vote for best bookstore (excellent chapbook, poetry and Canadian lit sections). Thomas A. Clark's work is well worth seeking out. Best, Jonathan Brannen >chris daniels wrote: >> i have bob brown's 1450-1950, it's one of my most treasured books, >> but who the hell is thomas a. clark? i'll find out, you bet. > >Thomas A. Clark hails from Grennock, and currently runs Moschatel Press >with his wife Laurie in darkest Gloucestershire. Following a runs of books >from Jonathan Williams' Jargon (latest: A Still Life, 1977) he's produced >a range of tiny-but-perfect pamphlets & cards from Moschatel, as well as >Madder Lake (Coach House 1981) Tormentil & Bleached Bones (Polygon 1993) >and appeared (with Barry MacSweeney and Chris Torrance) in The Tempers of >Hazard (Paladin 1993). The Paladin one was almost a ghost book, and could >be hard to find: they were taken over by Rupert Murdoch during >publication, and when MacSweeney phoned for extra copies c. six weeks >after publication, he was told "Mr. Murdoch ordered it to be burned"... > >Here's one from The Hollow Way (Moschatel 1983): > > freshness gathers in a jar > the evening waits on splendour > we have come home from war > only the indigent wander > > ask nothing of life > the hours have no halter > the garden gate is ajar > purpose does not falter > > abundance ripens in a bowl > the telephone rings in an empty room > a turbulence of trapped wings > in the corner reclines a broom > >- hope that helps! >xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >x x >x Richard Caddel, E-mail: R.I.Caddel @ durham.ac.uk x >x Durham University Library, Phone: 0191 374 3044 x >x Stockton Rd. Durham DH1 3LY Fax: 0191 374 7481 x >x x >x "Words! Pens are too light. Take a chisel to write." x >x - Basil Bunting x >x x >xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:48:57 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Brannen Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 11 Mar 1996 to 12 Mar 1996 Charles, What's the address for Prest Roots Press? Best, Jonathan Brannen >Nice that this is the second time within a year (go back through the poetics >list archive) that thomas a. clark has been the subject. Richard Caddel's >list leaves out one title I have, which is Dwellings & Habitations, from >Prest Roots Press in 1993. Kate Whiteford contributes drawings which do >justice as well. Among the pages > > >saxifrage on a wet rock face > >samphire in a salt marsh > >skeins of mist among bog cotton > >a depth of sky in a shallow pool > >quite in the rib-cage of a sheep's carcase > > > >always nice to have a reason to look back at thomas a. clark's work. > > >charles alexander > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 13:02:21 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Bury Fascist Ezra Pound It's bigotry rather than Fascism maybe that this is about with Pound and the early twentieth century arty anti-semitisims but there are more of these good/bad guy cases... e.g. Anthony Blunt scholar and spy obtaining British military secrets for Russia. But do Read His Books, they have much to say on the issues that beset him, masks, disguises, projected onto his painter, ideology that his painter seemed to justify...but the most disinterested seeming scholar was he. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 20:19:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Jeanne McGahey I was talking this evening with friends about Jeanne McGahey, who recently died, and thought it might be good to add something here about her. There is to be a memorial reading for her on March 30th in San Rafael; I only wish there had been readings in her honor that she could have attended these last few years. She was a very accomplished poet and deserved attention that she never got. McGahey (1906-1995) was a member of the group called the Activists by Auden. Their leader was Lawrence Hart, whom McGahey married in 1944. Hart took from Pound, Eliot, Crane, and other modernists various standards by which he felt poetry could be judged. In turn, as I understand it, these standards could be exploited as procedures or rules for the poet to follow. In some sense, then, it was possible to teach/learn how to write poetry. Hart and McGahey's son, John Hart (himself a respected poet), told me that the Activists (despite the name and Auden's collective praise) were never really a community but rather those who studied under his father during his fifty-year teaching career. The Activists were well known in the late 1940s and early 1950s, and there was a special issue of _Poetry_ dedicated to their work. And they had some very strong defenders: Theodore Weiss, for example, gave them much space in his magazine. But the Activists had to share the Bay area with the Rexroth and Duncan/Spicer groups, among others, and there was friction. Duncan, for example, dismissed Hart as one who did "not comprehend problems of poetry in the least." Duncan would not deny that Hart had "a remarkable number of interesting poets" working under him, but principally what he passed on to them was "the claptrap of bells, honey, coins and senory machinery." Duncan knew McGahey at Berkeley, and they were published together. In 1941, a selection of her work appeared in _Five Young American Poets_, published by New Directions, and she was, I'd guess, the first Bay Area poet of her generation to be nationally recognized. Her poetry was built from "images and phrases," which, she said, "might come through automatic writing, random devices, fragments I picked up from conversations, street signs, newspaper stories, anything: but if they fitted or were right, the emotion would seem to recognize them or let them in." Her intent was to "make the real more real," to create "a word reality that is as actual to the mind as place is to the senses." The results are great baroque constructions: "Old fogies in the rusty weather / Dream for a dram or two / that kelpy / Locomotive length" (i.e. sea serpent); "The day the iron fell: / the enormous Lie. / And the adversary licks it like a toad." Activist poetry, George Leite wrote, possesses "a surface of brilliant notation, imagery and connotative statement." According to McGahey, "the `interesting' word is very seldom the abstract word." Between 1983 and 1986, McGahey edited _The Poetry Letter_ from her home in San Rafael and tried again to promote the Activist position, but the magazine did not have much circulation. I visited McGahey a few years ago, and found her a truly wonderful person who remained absolutely committed to the Activist ideas. Lawrence Hart was equally certain that the Activists were the true heirs of the modernists--at least those in their pantheon, which apparently did not have room for Stevens or even Williams. I liked them immensely, their certainty and conviction. And I think her poetry should be much better known. It is worth locating a copy of _Homecoming with Reflections_, her selected poems published ten or twelve years ago. Here is part of one of her poems, reprinted on a memorial card for her: The old and disheveled may well take aim. Whatever they came for: the lucky fix, The absolute noise, the smile that disappeared Like a sparrow: these being forfeit Leave little to lose. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 00:52:13 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: poems >CERYTAIN SUHLANTS TWO for Ron Silliman > > > this is quite simply exhilerating. thanks charles love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:03:08 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: may-sures & misc >btw, when Chris Stroffolino speaks of a malaise/fear of taking a stance, >how >does that speak to Chris Daniels' I'm pissed post? Has CD been criticized >for taking a stance, or taking a stance "unsophisticatedly," or taking too >many stances or...? If he IS "charmingly naive," does that mean (as his >post on backchannel messages he's received would seem to indicate) he's not >welcome here? Speaking a little defensively as someone aware of her own >naivete, if not her charm. e emily --- one last shot, and then i'll say no more abt it. i think i was criticized for not speaking "the language of the tribe." later --- chris ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.19.96 6:03:08 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:28:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tardos Mac Low Subject: Heidegger The following messages were originally backchanneled to Alan Sondheim in answer to an email posting to me. MESSAGE 1 Dear Alan, Thanks for the message. From what I've read again lately (David Ferrell Krell's General Introduction to his collection _Martin Heidegger: Basic Writings_ (NY: Harpers, 1977), 26-28), MH *did* repudiate the Nazis in a real sense: "On the eve of the Reichstag elections of Novemer 12 [1933] Heidegger spoke out in support of Hitlerian policis that culminated in Germany's withdrawal from the League of Nations--whose birth certificate was the deeply resented Versailles Treaty. Meanwhile the NSDAP-dominated ministry of culture began to pressure university leaders for more politiclly oriented courses and more ideologically enlightened faculty members to teach them. In February 1934 the Karlsruhe branch of the ministry demanded that Heidegger relieve of their duties two professors openly hostile to the movement. Heidegger demurred.At the end of the month, because of this and apparently a whole range of administrative difficulties, he resigned. By the begining of the new year (1934) Heidegger had recognized the impossibility of the situation and the bankruptcy of his hopes for resurgence. [Wrongly, of course, he *had* hoped that the NASDP movement would lead to a "resurgence" of Germany--as did many others who were more informed politically than he was.] In lectures and seminars he began to criticize at first cautiously and then more stridently the Nazi ideology of _Blut unf Boden_ chauvinism that preached a racist origin for even poetry. [fn; "One of the most sharply critical texts appears in Martin Heidegger, _The End of Philosophy_, trans. Joan Stambaugh (NY: Harper & Row, 1973), pp. 105 ff.] Party admerents bitterly criticized Heidegger in the mid-1930s; his courses were apparently placed under surveillance; some were canceled; various restrictions were placed on his freedom to publish and to attend conferences. In the summer of 1944 he was declared the most "expendable" member of the university faculty and along with a recalcitrant ex-dean sent to the Rhine to dig trenches. Upon his return to Freiburg he was drafted into the People's Militia (_Volksturm_). Heidegger's support of the Nazi Party had lasted ten months (May 1933 to January 1934); it earned him the virulent enmity of many. That Heigger's early engagement in the Nazi cause was a monstrous error all concede; that this error sprang from basic tendencies of his thought only a few have argued. [fn: It is of course convenient to decide that Heidegger's shortlived but inense involvement in political despotism "taints" his work: that is the fastest way to rid the shelves of all sorts of difficult authors from Plato to Nietsche and to make righteous indignationeven more satisfying than it normally is. But neither does it do to close the eyes and stop up the ears to the dismal matter. {Krell then recommends several "accounts and reflections," notably Hannah Arendt's "Martin Heidegger at Eighty" [ _The New York Review of Books_, October 21, 1971,pp. 53 -54 n.3) and Fergus Kerr's "Metaphysics after Heidegger: for Eighty-fifth Birthday," in _New Blackfriars_(August 1974), pp. 344-57.] I am of course aware of the much more severe takes on this whole situation in the collection of essays on MH edited by Thomas McCarthy in the 1980s, of which I can't at present locate my copy.. I do not understand the connection you draw between Heidegger's idea of _Dasein_ and fascism. Please let me know your reasoning. As for "destiny," I have been convinced by Aristotle, Whitehead, and others that the future is open--that real *novelty* is continually coming to be, so "destiny" is not part of my philosophical vocabulary. To what extent is it basic to MH's thought? MESSAGE 2 Alan I found my copy of the collection I mentioned, but it was *not* edited by Thomas McCarthy but by Thomas Sheehan!- -_Heidegger: The Man and the Thinker_ (Chicago: Precedent Publishing, 1981). The relevant items are "Heidegger and the Nazis," by Karl A. Moehling" (pp. 31-43) and "'Only a God Can Save Us': The _Spiegel_ Interview (1966)" (pp. 45-67). The interview took place on 23 September 1966, but MH insisted it not be published during his lifetime. It appeared in _Der Spiegel_ on 31 May 1976, five days after his death. The translator of the interview, William J. Richardson, S.J., remarks in his intro to it that MH "neither repudiated, justified, nor explained" his "association with the Nazis while Rector pf the University of Freiburg, 1933-34." MH has a lot to say about this matter in the interview, & Moehling's essay is, with it, a very complete account of the matter. Do you know this book? I picked it up at a small press book fair held at NYU in the early 80s. Yrs, Jackson [Mac Low] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 20:21:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: may-sures & misc In-Reply-To: chris- check out archives for the past month. A couple of other newcomers have expressed pleasure at their recption here. I'll join them in expressing my comfort here even though I am a complete ignoramus in regard to poetry politic's ins and outs. In my experience this is probably the most tolerant and friendly place online. tom bell On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, chris daniels wrote: > >btw, when Chris Stroffolino speaks of a malaise/fear of taking a stance, > >how > >does that speak to Chris Daniels' I'm pissed post? Has CD been criticized > >for taking a stance, or taking a stance "unsophisticatedly," or taking too > >many stances or...? If he IS "charmingly naive," does that mean (as his > >post on backchannel messages he's received would seem to indicate) he's not > >welcome here? Speaking a little defensively as someone aware of her own > >naivete, if not her charm. e > > > emily --- > > one last shot, and then i'll say no more abt it. > > i think i was criticized for not speaking "the language of the > tribe." > > later --- > > chris > ------------------------------------- > christopher daniels 3.19.96 6:03:08 pm > > q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they > said anything goes?" > --- charles wourinen > > a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." > > --- george clinton > > snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa > voice: 510.524.5972 > http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:38:48 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: Re: ghost titles Well, it's not necessarily poetry, but there's always Harlan Ellison's "The Last Dangerous Visions", now some thirtyish years delayed. ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/Joe Zitt's Home Page\| ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 22:56:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tosh berman Subject: Re: Pound & Fascism >Cheers y'all, > >Jeffrey Timmons I just want to say "yeah" to Jeffrey's comment too as well as Majorie. Sorry to be such a dumbell on the side! tosh ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:21:40 GMT0BST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Larkin Organization: UNIVERSITY OF WARWICK LIBRARY Subject: Thomas A Clark Dwellings and Habitations is still in print, and North American orders (paying in dollars) can be sent to Paul Green. Full details appear under Small Presses on the EPC web pages. Thank you, Charles Alexander, for airing a few quotes from it. In case of any difficulty, members of this list are welcome to contact me direct.Peter Larkin Philosophy & Literature Librarian University of Warwick Library,Coventry CV4 7AL UK Tel:01203 524475 Fax: 01203 524211 Email: Lyaaz@Libris.Lib.Warwick.ac.uk ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 01:24:15 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: FW: another open letter --- On Tue, 19 Mar 1996 20:21:13 -0800 Thomas Bell wrote: >chris- > check out archives for the past month. A couple of other newcomers >have expressed pleasure at their recption here. I'll join them in >expressing my comfort here even though I am a complete ignoramus in >regard to poetry politic's ins and outs. In my experience this is >probably the most tolerant and friendly place online. > >tom bell > just to say that i also feel very welcome here --- a few people were mean to me, i got pissed off --- that's all --- i have no problem w/ being asked to make my posting more efficient --- that's never been the point i'm very glad to be on this list --- it's the first extended contact w/ literary people i've ever had --- out of the 400 or so subscribers, less than ten were nasty --- seems like good odds there is much passionate intelligence here, and i repeat i am very glad to be a subscriber --- even though i am not the most elegant writer, and am w/o a doubt not a trained thinker, you have been taking what i have to say seriously and i have gotten some very kind words of support and encouragement from some of you --- poets and critics alike --- whose work i has filled me w/ awed delight for twenty years or more --- i am moved and very grateful --- so please don't think i'm fuming or holding a grudge later --- chris ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.20.96 1:24:15 am q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wourinen a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:37:18 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R I Caddel Subject: Bunting / Military Intelligence In-Reply-To: <199603200505.FAA28554@hermes.dur.ac.uk> Yes, Bunting worked for British Military Intelligence in Persia during WWII, and you may share my view that MI is nearly always "shady" or "suspect". We can actually confirm very little of what he did, since the Military won't release the records. It's known that there was an attempt to contact the remote tribes, to prevent German (and subsequently Soviet) intelligence from "destabilising" the region. And it's also evident that whilst he was Vice-Consul of Isfahan he did a lot of travelling to remote areas to meet such tribes (and had a wonderful time). Therefore there's an assumption that he was actually making diplomatic contact as part of said attempt. A sort of "Greenmantle" - and very typical of British Intelligence to be one war behindhand. "Military Intelligence" is another of those terms like "English Cuisine" isn't it - doesn't stand much examination... RC ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:03:34 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Subject: something else In-Reply-To: What does the list have to say about Gilbert Sorrentino's work? (How) does he fit in? Is his poetry read? His prose? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:41:17 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: something else I adore Sorrentino's _The Orangery_. That is precisely the kind of thing I find sexy, silly, liberating about the new or "querzblatz" kinds of poetics--You wake up in the morning and you REALLY LIKE ORANGE. So you write an entire book in which every poem mentions orange-the-color or orange-the-fruit. Bravo; my virtual hat is off. Gwyn ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:41:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Pound, fascism, etc. In-Reply-To: <199603192028.PAA29757@pipe3.nyc.pipeline.com> Bravo for Jerry's & Jackson's messages re Pound: they should lay that question to rest or at least make it clear that one cannot dismiss work of the order of Pound's because of the man's failings. I was about to post Julian Beck's poem, when Jerry did so, as that poem embodies for me the kind of vigilance we should all strive for, as citizens & writers. Olson said, liberatingly, that space / geography is the essential characteristic of the US, but the unhappy concommittant seems to be a flattening out of history: from the various messages re Pound I get a strong sense of a lack of historical perspective -- as if all events were synchronic -- so that hindsight gets construed as clarity of vision -- & used to condemn those who in their time, the twenties & the thirties, in this case, messed up, aligning themselves with what they percieved as revolutionary positions -- on the right & on the left -- which both ended in totalitarianisms. 'nuff said, except that for those interested I'd like to point to a few books that can help clarify matters (unhappily as far as I'm aware, they are not translated into English yet): Jean-Pierre Faye's masterful "Langages Totalitaires" (Hermann, Paris 1973): an analysis of how the discursive modes of national-socialism/ nazism came about, evolved from the various strains of nationalist, socialist, jungdeutsch & many other discourses. A historical semantics that should interest any poet. Zeev Sternhell, _Ni Droite, Ni Gauche: L'ideologie Fsciste en France- (Editions du Seuil, 1983, reprinted 1987 by Editions Complexe) There are a number of Sternhell's essays available in English, for ex. "Fascist ideology," in Walter Laqueur, ed. _Fascism: A Reader's Guide_ (UCP, Berkeley 1976).See also his book _La Droite Revolutionnaire: Les origines francaises du fascisme 1885-1914 (Seuil 1984). In the 1930s George Bataille spoke of "the fascist temptation" that the intellectuals & artist of his time had to contend with: some of his work (like the essay on the prefix "sur") are essential reading. Important also is the work done & ongoing around Maurice Blanchot's 30s antisemitic writings (Jeffrey Mehlman's _Legacies of Anti-Semitism in France_; Alice Yaeger Kaplan's _Reproductions of Banality: Fascism, Literature, and French intellectual life_,among others, are important to get a grasp on that period). As we approach the millennium, making this century "history," we have to keep worrying it, we have to try to understand not only what went wrong, but why & how. It's not a question of either forgetting or forgiving what has happened: we must neither forget nor forgive anything that happened. Pierre ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Form fascinates when one no longer has the force Dept. of English | to understand force from within itself. That SUNY Albany | is, to create." -- Jacques Derrida Albany NY 12222 | tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | "Poetry is the promise of a language." email: | -- Friedrich Holderlin joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:14:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Heidegger In-Reply-To: <199603192028.PAA29757@pipe3.nyc.pipeline.com> Dear Jackson -- thanks for your thoughtful postings re both EP & Heidegger. As far as the latter is concerned, I cannot, however, agree with your sense that he repudiated nazism -- ever (he remained, for example, a card- & lapel-pin-carrying member in good standing of the nazi party until 1945, something there was absolutely no need for him to do). On the question of H's politics, Krell's intro is something of a whitewash. In the late 80s, when the Heidegger shootout at Sorbonne Corral was in full swing I wrote an essay covering the books (from Farias to Lyotard's) on that question, & also looking at Heidegger's practical application of his ideology & thought, i.e. what he actually did when in a position of power at the university. I never published the piece & it's too long to post here (30+ pages), but if you wld like to see it, I'll be happy to backchannel the thing. If other people are interested I cld also cut it up into three parts & post those to the list &/or post it on my epc author page. Certainly Heidegger's problems after he abdicated the rector position are no proof of his opposition to the nazi regime. If there is one interesting conjecture in Victor Farias's book, it is the suggestion that the ultraconservative agragrian origins of H wld make him more sympathetic to the SA than to the SSS. This would indeed explain a lot, but all the info we need to judge isn't in yet. The recently published paraphrase of the Arendt/Heidegger correspondance is a disastrous & disappointing job. At any rate, I can't take Arendt's continued involvement with Heidegger as in any sense a proof that Heidegger had abandoned or changed his ideological views. Paul Celan who visited him in July 1966 left disappointed, if not disgusted, & recorded the negativity of the visit in his poem TODTNAUBERG. (have an essay on that encounter too, CELAN/HEIDEGGER:TRANSLATION AT THE MOUNTAIN OF DEATH, if you're interested) Pierre ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Form fascinates when one no longer has the force Dept. of English | to understand force from within itself. That SUNY Albany | is, to create." -- Jacques Derrida Albany NY 12222 | tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | "Poetry is the promise of a language." email: | -- Friedrich Holderlin joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:19:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: something else In-Reply-To: <314FC4AD.356B@osf1.gmu.edu> On Wed, 20 Mar 1996, Gwyn McVay wrote: > I adore Sorrentino's _The Orangery_. That is precisely the > kind of thing I find sexy, silly, liberating about the new > or "querzblatz" kinds of poetics--You wake up in the morning > and you REALLY LIKE ORANGE. So you write an entire book in > which every poem mentions orange-the-color or > orange-the-fruit. Bravo; my virtual hat is off. > > Gwyn > & I adored _Imaginative Qualities of Actual Things_ (among other Sorrentino works) but that one so much that I even got the hard-cover in those hard-pressed days, which Ted Berrigan then borrowed sometime in 1975 & is, I hope, still chuckling over whenever the angel choirs are getting to dull & his buddy Frank is catching a nap. -- Pierre ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:06:47 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: something else one thing perhaps directly pertinent to this list re sorrentino: his admiration for jack spicer's poetry... i recall a 'review' he did---early 70s?---of spicer's poetry, how important he thought it was... mebbe kevin or somebody can give the reference, i've forgotten it... anyway, as to sorrentino's writing per se, YES, surely an innovator, well-worth checking out... as is charles a.!---charles, i really enjoyed your first poem 'for ron silliman'!... joe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:21:40 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Bouchard Subject: Re: Sorrentino Joe wrote: one thing perhaps directly pertinent to this list re sorrentino: his admiration for jack spicer's poetry... i recall a 'review' he did---early 70s?---of spicer's poetry, how important he thought it was... mebbe kevin or somebody can give the reference, i've forgotten it... _________ This essay is part of the SOMETHING SAID collection of essays published in the early 80s by. . . North Point? It also has worthwhile essays on Zukofsky, Neidecker, Oppen, Reznikoff, Rexroth and many others. Unfortunately it's out of print now but I bet the Dalkey Archive picks it up soon. I read Spicer after reading the IMAGINATIVE QUALITIES OF ACTUAL THINGS and recall thinking what a debt that novel owes to Spicer. It's very good; very funny. His recent novel RED THE FIEND (1995) is also worth checking out (as is all his work while I'm mentioning it). daniel_bouchard@hmco.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:13:30 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: Heidegger In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:14:39 -0500 from On Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:14:39 -0500 Pierre Joris said: >Heidegger had abandoned or changed his ideological views. Paul Celan who >visited him in July 1966 left disappointed, if not disgusted, & recorded >the negativity of the visit in his poem TODTNAUBERG. (have an essay on >that encounter too, CELAN/HEIDEGGER:TRANSLATION AT THE MOUNTAIN OF DEATH, >if you're interested) There is also some discussion of this in Felstiner's new book "Paul Celan". On this whole issue of Pound et al., I think Ron Silliman's post remains the most interesting. "We are the problem." I read recently that the Scottish philosopher Hume developed a view that sympathy is the bond of social peace; he wrote an essay on "the pleasures of tragedy" specifically to criticize the self-righteousness of religious forces in his country which were attacking cultural values, theater, etc. It seems to me we all tend to talk too glibly about "forgetting and forgiving" or "remembering and condemning", as if these were somehow group efforts that can be invoked by social decree. In my view there is an individuality in all these acts of reading & judgement; we respond to an incredible range of things when we read or listen to poetry. An awareness of the historical & political background just deepens our response & heightens the hunger for alternatives or revisions - it is ethics in action, ethos being formed, even if we'd rather not deal in such stuffy vocabulary. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:52:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Update on Billy Higgins In-Reply-To: <199603110702.CAA10237@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> _L.A. Times_ 3/20/96 Jazz great Billy Higgins received a successful liver transplant on Monday at the UCLA Medical Center and was listed in stable condition. "He's just fine. The new liver started working immediately," said Higgins' wife, Gina, who requested no phone calls to Higgins at the hospital for the time being. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 13:06:13 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: poems >>CERYTAIN SUHLANTS TWO for Ron Silliman >> >> >> this > >is quite simply exhilerating. > >thanks charles >love and love >cris thank you, cris Seems like some poems on the poetics list are called for once in a while, at least, even though I have been following the pound/fascism and other discussions with interest, too. but I've also been doing a lot of new work and wanted to share some. such responses as yours are great to hear. love & love charles ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:32:25 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Christopher J. Beach" Subject: Re: Pound, fascism, etc. In-Reply-To: I have tried to stay out of the fray on this whole Pound thing (having already said my two cents worth in my book), but now that things have died down a bit, I'd just like to add my thanks to Ron Silliman, Marjorie Perloff, Jerry Rothenberg, and Jackson Mac Low (among others) for the insightful and informational comments. For those who would "bury" Pound, I think we need to remember that if it weren't for Pound, and his influence on the course of avant-garde/ experimental/ innovative American poetry, we might not be having the conversation or this list at all. Christopher Beach ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 15:38:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Tim Davis & Stephen Rodefer Read Comments: cc: nd@panix.com, drothschild@penguin.com Tim Davis & Stephen Rodefer read at Biblio's on Sun March 24 @ 5:00pm 317 Church St, 1 blk below canal, Manhattan, NY ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 16:26:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Heidegger pierre: i for one wd be interested in seeing your longish heidegger essay: 128 racing beach ave., falmouth ma 02540, if you decide against posting it in 3 parts... bests, maria d ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 14:12:22 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Franklin Bruno Subject: Request for addresses Hello, this is my first post. Could whoever publishes Witz please re- post (or backchannel) ordering information? I wrote down the address but not who to make out the check to, and I can't find the original post. Sorry. Also, could someone post information (address, price) for lyric&? I've read of this several places but can't find it anywhere, even, say SPD. Switzerland: brand new edition of Robt. Smithson's writing, w/ several unpublished interviews. thanks in advance, Franklin Bruno, henceforth: fjb ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 14:13:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Reiner Subject: New Laura Moriarty Book .....a short commercial break..... ------------------------------------------------ New from Avec Books _Symmetry_ by Laura Moriarty Winning manuscript of the Gerbode Foundation Awards in Poetry selected by Robert Creeley "If poems can be profoundly emotional--illuminating the persistently difficult zero of experience--these poems are. Precise, compelling, moving, simple, yet in places skirting the edges of what can be said, the writing in _Symmetry_ feels absolutely necessary. Its toughness, honesty and eyes-open confrontation with the unnameable may make you weep." --Norman Fischer "Laura Moriarty has unique wit and humor--and perhaps the most perceptive engagement with words that anyone's had for years. They are her pleasure, her resource, her wisdom and company, and she shares them with generous abandon. Here one may finally see that what's said makes a world endlessly, over and over and over. Hers is an abiding delight." --Robert Creeley Price $9.95 120 pages, perfect bound ISBN 1-880713-04-7 LCCN: 95-77361 Distributed by Baker & Taylor, Bookpeople, Small Press Distribution AVEC WWW: http://www.crl.com/~creiner/syntax/avec.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 14:50:18 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Messerli Subject: Sun & Moon competitions Sun & Moon Press is pleased to announce its competition winners of 1995 The New American Poetry Competition was judged this year by Bruce Andrews The winner is: METROPOLIS, by Rob Fitterman The New American Fiction Competition was judged this year by Sun & Moon Publisher, Douglas Messerli The winner is: POSSESSED BY A DEMON, by Elana Greenspan Both titles will be published in Sun & Moon Poetry and Fiction Series in 1997. Contgratulations to the writers whose manuscripts were chosen. We also want to express our appeciation to the many other excellent writers who participated in the 1995 competitions. Sun & Moon is now reading manuscripts for the 1996 competitions. Please send a full poetry or fiction manuscript with your name on the cover sheet only along a $25.00 fee (which goes toward the publicaiton of the winning titles) to Sun & Moon Press, 6026 Wilshire Boulevard, Los Angeles, CA 90036 Manuscripts are accepted from January 1, 1996 to December 30, 1996. Last year's New American Poetry Competition winners, NOON, by Cole Swensen and POLYVERSE by Lee Ann Brown are announced for publication in the Fall of this year. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 15:05:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Messerli Subject: Re: something else Sun & Moon has just republished THE ORANGERY by Gil Sorrentino. I think he's a great poet, highly unread, underappreciated, and neglected. In part that's a phenomenon of his fiction receiving so much attention with the publication of MULLIGAN STEW and ABBERRATION OF STARLIGHT. But that is, in my opinion, unfor- tunate. He's an excellent poet, full of wit and leaps and good language. His prose, almost all republished now by Dalkey Archive Press, is respected, I think, more than read. He's excellent there also. Obviously, I'm a fan. Douglas M ============================================ At 09:03 PM 3/20/96 +0800, you wrote: >What does the list have to say about Gilbert Sorrentino's work? >(How) does he fit in? >Is his poetry read? His prose? > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 14:52:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Reiner Subject: New WITZ Dear POETICS folks: The new issue of WITZ is now available. It features an essay on Robert Grenier's new work by Stephen Ratcliffe, a piece on bpNichol by Carl Peters, a review of Stephen-Paul Martin's _Fear and Philosophy_ by Andrew Joron, a review of David Bromige's _Tiny Courts_ by Douglas A Powell, a review of Kevin Connoly's _Asphalt Cigar_ by Clint Burnham, and some brief reviews by Susan Smith Nash. For those of you who are familiar with WITZ, the format is now a little different. The journal is 8" x 5", 40 pages, saddle-stitched. Also, for those of you who have been getting WITZ as members of Syntax Projects for the Arts, the journal is now its own, independent publication. Your subscription ended with the previous issue. I hope you'll resubscribe to the "new" WITZ. Subscription information: $10 U.S. (individuals) $30 U.S. (institutions) Checks should be made payable to Christopher Reiner WITZ 12071 Woodbridge Street Studio City, CA 91604 Back issues are also available, contact me for a list. Also, if you'd like send an essay or review for consideration, I'd be happy to see it. Please include an SASE. I'll be posting a more detailed call for submissions in the near future. Thanks, Christopher Reiner creiner@crl.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:30:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wendy Battin Subject: Carl Phillips reading Ed, agreed on the Carl Phillips book. For anyone in the Boston area, Phillips will be reading at MIT on April 4, 7:30 at Bartos Theater. also Lloyd Schwartz, on the same program. Stop in & say hi. Wendy Edward Foster wrote:... >never know, and in fact book and poet turned out to be pretty terrific, >so i pass this on. the writer is carl phillips and the book is cortege. >yes, there is a great respect for convention and finish, but the poems >are authentic and some are quite strong: see, for example, "the reach." >or look at "toys," for example; not as fine as "the reach," i think, but >it puts that old chestnut, roethke's "dolor," to shame. oh, that's not >fair: roethke's poem is good; still, Phillips's is better. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------- Wendy Battin wjbat@conncoll.edu wbattin@mit.edu Contemporary American Poetry Archive http://camel.conncoll.edu/library/CAPA/capa.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 22:35:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Quartermain Subject: Re: SPT: Island of Lost Souls Yes. I second that suggestion / question. Us po' Canadians too? Emily Lloyd wrote: >God, Kevin, sounds like a riot. Is there any way for po' easterners to get >a look at the script? e + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Peter Quartermain 128 East 23rd Avenue Vancouver B.C. Canada V5V 1X2 Voice and fax: 604 876 8061 + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 22:50:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Reiner Subject: Re: New WITZ In-Reply-To: Oops...forgot to say that a subscription to WITZ is for three issues. --Chris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 02:44:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: SPT: Island of Lost Souls and how about us po folk in the east but variously from the midwest and the awful san francisco burbs? :) -- e~q >Yes. I second that suggestion / question. Us po' Canadians too? > >Emily Lloyd wrote: >>God, Kevin, sounds like a riot. Is there any way for po' easterners to get >>a look at the script? e > + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + > Peter Quartermain > 128 East 23rd Avenue > Vancouver > B.C. > Canada V5V 1X2 > Voice and fax: 604 876 8061 > > + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 02:42:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Jeanne McGahey Ed, Wasn't Robert Barlow, the poet/anthropologist whom Olson was interested in while down in Mexico, also connected to McGahey & Hart? I got that newsletter in the 1980s and it was definitely a breath of the 1930s all over again. I'm waiting for someone to rediscover Adelaide Crapsey. Ron ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:07:21 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: Heidegger / H & Celan Hi Pierre, I'd like to read both pieces and e-mail in downloadable chunks is just fine - from the list or backchannel. love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 03:18:30 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: something else Simon Schuchat wrote: > >What does the list have to say about Gilbert Sorrentino's work? >(How) does he fit in? >Is his poetry read? His prose? > I've always been fond of his work. His omnibus poetry reviews were unique in the early & mid 60s for covering so much of what was happening (collected now happily in Something Said). It was a genre that Poetry used a lot, but relatively few other mags and tho Gil seems to exported that mode for his own purposes, nobody else was really doing that during that period. I like his poetry also, but have never really tried the novels. (I've had Mulligans Stew on the "to be read" pile since 1981.) The Orangery is a fine sequence. I believe that Ted Pearson and Keith Shein had a pretty strong relationship with him and his work and might be the most active instances of its influence being carried forward. Haven't heard from Keith in some years (he's the tennis pro at Dominican College in San Rafael). Tho Sorrentino has been at Stanford for years, he's never been active in the SF scene at all. (I recall mentioning that I'd never seen him even tho we'd lived in the same area for years and a Stanford student -- I forget whom, possibly Ty Miller -- saying that he'd never seen him either). Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:40:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: bodenheim Since it's been an issue lately among the talkers, and since I'm certain it's on the minds of more than a few lurkers, could somebody connected with the list just come out and say what the rules are. I ask this, knowing very well that "rules" are undesirable on notebook paper. So far, I've come up with: Don't reify. Announce books. Ask questions. Rescue lost writers. Probably the chief rule is "announce books". Rushing in, Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 07:47:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: Jeanne McGahey Dear Ron, I always find "tone" the most difficult thing to judge in e mail, and forgive me if I'm wrong but when you say, as you did in response to Ed Foster's Jeanne McGahey post, "I'm waiting for someone to rediscover Adelaide Crapsey," it sounds almost sarcastic. If so this is not *becoming* especially from you, the man who is always pissing and moaning about this or that poet having been "disappeared." Say it ain't so Joe! Love, Kevin K. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 08:13:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Messerli Subject: Re: Pound & Fascism Brilliant comments, as always, Marjorie! Douglas Messerli ================================= At 08:48 AM 3/19/96 -0800, you wrote: >Even as so many members of this list are excoriating Pound, we have, >right now, a fascist in our midst named Pat Buchanan who has managed to >get 30% of the Republican Primary vote even though (or perhaps because >of) he makes open statements that are antisemitic, homophobic, and >racist. Just the other day on TV (maybe CNN) a farmer in Georgia was >being interviewed as to who he was planning to vote for. He said, "I >think I'll vote for Pat Buchanan because he feels the way I do about the >niggers." This on CNN. This is the world we live in--a world where many >could hardly believe Furman said the "N word" and yet Buchanan gets away >with this every day. > >So I think if you want to fight Fascism you have to begin at home. > >But as for Pound, I think many of the postings here have been quite off >the mark. Reading Walter Benn Michaels' OUR AMERICA, about racial >attitudes and nativism in the 20s, I was reminded what a horrible >anti-semimite dear old Ernest Hemingway was, with that charming portrait >of Robert Cohen in SUN ALSO RISES. It has recently been shown how >anti-semitic HD was, in her notebooks for TRIBUTE TO FREUD. In fact, >anti-Semitism and racism were as Michaels's shows, part and parcel of 20s >postWWI culture. Very few writers escaped it. We have to try to >understand why and not say let's get rid of Ezra Pound, who also happens >to be one of the greatest poets of the 20th C. > >I still believe--and I speak here as a refugee from Hitler whose family >fled the morning of the Anschluss (March 12, 1938) of Austria--that >Pound's "fascism"--most of it completely nonsensical, juvenile, and >failing to understand how government works--was not nearly as dangerous >as Heidegger's willed, conscious, perfectly "reasoned" Fascism. to read >what Heidegger did at his own university in order to get rid of >colleagues who might have Jewish blood boggles the mind. And then >there's Paul de Man. As Eliot Weinberger wrote in SULFUR some years ago, >Pound's iniquities are not on the same scale because who the hell >listened to Pound's message?? Whereas Heidegger/de Man influenced >generations of students. > >Jerry McGann has an essay in CRITICAL INQUIRY (a few years back) where he >makes an eloquent case for the Cantos as the tragic poem of the 20th C in >that it sums up so many of the terrible ideologies, anxieties, prejudices >around. To call it tragic may go too far, but Jerry is right. And >without the Cantos, I maintain there would have been no Black Mt, no >Objectivism,no Ethnopoetics (Rothenberg) and performance poetry like Mac >Low's, and so on down the line. So to say, as some people have on this >list, let's just get rid of Pound, is ridiculous. > >And if you only read people whose ideology you approve of, who shall >'scape whipping? What about a Stalinist like Neruda? Is he to be >totally excused for supporting his Dictator? Shall we not read Wyndham >Lewis, a worse fascist than Pound but also an incredible writer? Let's >see, who's left? What about the homophobic, antisemitic passages in >Baraka? And so on. > >It all comes back to the vexed question about the relation of poetry to >politics and that's a question that should be hotly discussed in a larger >theoretical way than it is today. Robert Duncan has wonderful comments >on the issue in his correspondence (not yet published) with Denise >Levertov. But whatever the relationship, it can't be Love my Politics, >love my poetry. > > >Marjorie Perloff > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:50:18 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: bodenheim >Since it's been an issue lately among the talkers, and since I'm certain >it's on the minds of more than a few lurkers, could somebody connected with >the list we're all connected with the list... >just come out and say what the rules are. I ask this, knowing very >well that "rules" are undesirable on notebook paper. but, of course, any community/language/conversation has "rules"; to have rules imposed & enforced from "above" i find undesirable, but to pretend they're nonexistant seems naive or worse. so, seems an positive step to articulate or acknowledge, as per: >So far, I've come up with: >Don't reify. >Announce books. >Ask questions. >Rescue lost writers. to which i'd add: share enthusiasms question author-ity backchannel when addressing individuals rather than the whole list encourage newcomers sincere lbd ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 08:59:39 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Sorrentino In-Reply-To: <199603210600.BAA12921@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> But where is Sorrentino's poetry since the old Black Sparrow _Selected_; Great to see his oranges back in print after all these years, but I know he must have written some more poems while churning out all that fiction-- ?? for those new to this territory, in addition to the _Review of Contemporary Fiction_ Sorrentino issue, you may find in some libraries the old issue of _Vort_ dedicated to Sorrentino -- I first encountered him in Williams's _Paterson_ and have been reading ever since ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:10:35 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: SPT newsletter--has it arrived? This is Dodie speaking. Ms. Damon informs me she hasn't yet received her SPT newsletter. The bulk-mailing went out last week, and Bay Area people have received theirs. This is the first time I've bulk-mailed outside California. Has anybody else received/not received their newsletter? (This does not apply to those of you living outside the U.S.--yours went first class). Please backchannel me. Thanks. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 13:35:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: "Brilliant comments, Marjorie!" Insofar as a well-executed dose of common sense is brilliant, I wholeheartedly agree. e ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Emily Lloyd emilyl@mail.erols.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 13:48:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: praed Of course it may be a really juvenile wish to want the rules out front. In which case a rule might be: Do not speak for the list. Jd ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 14:08:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: praed In-Reply-To: I believe the 'rule' was to announce publications, not just books. Anyway, having no books, I've been announcing articles. Is this cool with our Miss Mannerses? Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 684-6277 There is some excitement in one corner, but most of the ghosts are merely shaking their heads. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 12:23:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marisa Januzzi Subject: Forgotten hours chime louder/In the meantime... In-Reply-To: <199603201632.LAA13240@krypton.hmco.com> Who started the ding-dong motive here?! Was cruising Laura Riding for an alternate purpose and startled into a response to Rachel Blau DuPlessis' message about reinventing the wheel. I just want to add my voice to the many, and say that Rachel's essay "Corpses of Poesy" contains the most succinct and grimly hilarious footnote I have ever seen on Pound's relations with women poets of the period. Rachel, I hope you don't mind if I quote it. "...While genuine in its interest, and supportive if didactic, [Pound's attitude re: female poet-acquaintances] was also like that of miners to their canaries; if the canary didn't keel over, then the site was safe to enter and to work. Pound used H.D. as the canary for imagism, and Moore and Loy for heteroglossic logopoeia. Amy Lowell keeled over and was discarded." [RBDuP, "'Corpses of Poesy': Some Modern Poets and Some Gender Ideologies of Lyric." FEMINIST MEASURES, eds. Lynn Keller and Cristanne Miller. U of Michigan, 1994. I must say, I am always stunned to hear people reify a Whitman-Pound-Zuk lineage. It's not to say there aren't obviously affinities... it's just to say that's not a "lineage," it's a dynasty, the house of poetry entailed (via crit.) on the male heir. With the kind of scholarship Rachel, for one, has done, new books and courses and lectures on modernism which barely hint at the work of non-male poets signify an active effort of obtuseness on the part of the authors. Not certain about Crapsey, but... how about Emily Holmes Coleman? Emanuel Carnevali? Bob Brown, viva! ciao. Marisa PS: How can I tell you there's a red-striped box elder beetle just to the left of the screen, wobbling his antennae at y'all? (But how can I not?) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 12:28:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marisa Januzzi Subject: Re: Sorrentino In-Reply-To: <199603201632.LAA13240@krypton.hmco.com> Pierre's message made me remember: I have to take a lot of personal credit for bringing IMAGINATIVE QUALITIES OF ACTUAL THINGS to the attention of Kenneth Koch, who apparently had no idea he figured there... I knew he'd love it from the classicKoch opening passage, and he did. Sorrentino blurbed one of KK's subsequent books. MULLIGAN STEW is the classic, but I never got past the flyleaves. You know, we have to do something to ensure that Dalkey Archive doesn't succumb to commercial pressures now that its main editorial God, Steven Moore, is leaving. ---Marisa (debeetled) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 13:11:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jeffrey W. Timmons" Subject: UDC Protest In-Reply-To: I was wondering if anyone in the DC area could tell me (us) anything about the the protest at UDC this week. I looked in the NYT but saw nothing and being in Phoenix--notorious for its poor national news coverage--I feel out in the dark. From what I understand congress had decided to cut their budget--which in effect meant that UDC would apparently no longer be able to keep up their accredidation. I don't know how this works so I'm hoping someone can explain this. I know UDC has had problems in the past with its accredidation and its viability as a university, but it's--from what I understand as a parttime resident of DC--about the only place where those unable to afford the steep tuitions of most of the area's universities can attend. Basically, the city kids who can't afford Georgetown (etc) go there. Without accredidation . . . well you can imagine. When the admin found out the cut--and I am repeating this secondhand--they decided to give only pass/fail grades for this semeseter and to close down a month early. The students were outraged and blocked Connecticut avenue--a major street in NW DC--for most of a day this week, demanding that the cut not take place and that UDC would not close early. From reports from my DC source there were police in riot gear, and so many of them that they were double the number of protesters. Well congress caved in or something and acceded to their demands. Hooray! and here's to protest! But again I'd like more details if anyone could fill me in. I also want to draw everyone's attention to the vote today in the house that prevents "illegals aliens" from attending public schools. Newt himself seems to think this a great idea--since it "costs" taxpayers money to educate the brutes. In response to this I thought it an appropriate protest to offer training/program/classes to any "illegals" [anyone really] in english language/writing skills who want it. Denying the opportunity to anyone the right to read and write and read and learn it seems to me to be a fundamental denial of humanity--which it seems what this vote and the cut at UDC and the screwed up census count and the scaling back of affirmative action is all about. It's not that it costs money but that educating people is a threat. Reading writing learning are the biggest threat there is--and these events clearly say so. Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 14:21:57 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Umbrella and Disaster I'm forwarding this message from Judith Hoffberg, on the chance that any librarians or writers or others on this list might also know about and care about the artists' book journal Umbrella, and might want to know what has recently happened to it. charles alexander >Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 23:10:15 -0800 >Reply-To: "The Book Arts: binding, typography, collecting" > >Sender: "The Book Arts: binding, typography, collecting" > >From: Judith Hoffberg >Subject: Umbrella and Disaster >To: Multiple recipients of list BOOK_ARTS-L > >X-UIDL: 827439388.002 > >Dear Friends: > >My computer was stolen last Thursday in mid-day as I went to pick up my >mail. It was a vindictive and vengeful act on the part of my drug >dealer neighbor--but I cannot prove it. The guys wore gloves! They >only stole my computer and nothing else--the printer, scanner, monitor, >computer and even the shell of the old computer which served as a >pedestal for my monitor. I am numb inside. There is nothing >left--they even took the last backup disk for my next issue of >Umbrella, which was to have been in press as I write this. I have lost >all my writing, my addresses both on the Net and off for 10 years and >more, my correspondence, personal and business, for 10 years--and a >great deal more. I am starting from square one--with some luck by >having copied lots of data--but still, there are deadlines, >subscribers, and so much more. > >I am telling you all this to send the word around, please, that >Umbrella will be late--very late--since I cannot produce it in a flash. >It takes months of work--and the last three months I have been writing. >Much of the original material for many of my columns has been thrown >away--clippings, etc.--so a truncated issue will be forthcoming. I have >gone into debt to buy a new system--without tools, what are you? At >any rate, at this late stage of my life, I am beginning again--I am >full of denial right now. And fatigued emotionally and overwrought, I >shall try to reconnoiter and begin again. I beg you all to tell other >Listservs for me--librarians, collectors, artists, curators, and book >artists read Umbrella--even book dealers and friends do so too--but not >enough of them to gather them in on one list-serv or any one group. So >please pass the word around. And if any of you feel like helping >Umbrella continue either by a subscription ($18) or a donation to help >buy the computer equipment, I would be forever grateful. I wonder >whether sometimes this is a sign--to anthologize and stop. But I have >readers to satisfy and there is always much news. > >Please send the word around that Umbrella will be late, because of a >burglary that will probably never be solved. And so it goes. > >Judith A. Hoffberg >umbrella@ix.netcom.com >P.O. Box 3640 >Santa Monica, CA 90408 >tel: (310)399-1146 >fax: (310)399-5070 > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 14:49:08 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Jeanne McGahey it ain't so, kevin!... joe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:22:02 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: FREE PELTIER (fwd) FREE LEONARD PELTIER On March 20, 1996 in San Francisco about 300 people met at the Federal Building at about 7 AM to support a civil disobedience protest to free Leonard Peltier. His parole was denied. There was drumming, speeches and free oatmeal and bagels. There were many signs saying Free Peltier Now! FREE ALL POLITICAL PRISONERS, 20 YEARS IS ENOUGH - FREE LEONARD PELTIER NOW. Two rows of federal police totaling about 30 in all stood across the plaza blocking the entrance to the Federal Building at 450 Golden Gate Ave. Police barricades and a chain link fence made it so there was only a small entrance to the Golden Gate Avenue side of the building. The Federal Protective Service video taped everyone. He even spent time taping a child drawing with chalk on the side walk. The protesters marched to Market and Van Ness where 27 people sat in a circle and stopped traffic in two directions. The civil disobedience action was peaceful even though several people went limp when the police arrested them. When everyone was arrested they followed the drum up Market to Larkin and back to the Federal Building. The protest to free Leonard Peltier ended with a dance to free all political prisoners. Only Channel 2 and an unmarked TV camera showed up when the traffic was blocked. It seemed that no reporters and KCBS were the only corporate media, As for our media it was extensive. Four or five activists video taped the action. Karen Pickett and two other people taped event for Free Radio Berkeley, Free Radio Santa Cruz had at least one tape recorder, and Richard Edmondson and Kiilu Nyasha from San Francisco Liberation Radio also recorded the event. San Francisco Liberation Radio will air parts of the tapes Wednesday night. A report on the Free Leonard Peltier action will most likely be on next months Food Not Bombs Radio Network program. Send $12 to The Food Not Bombs Radio Network, 3145 Geary Blvd., #12, San Francisco, CA 94118. 1-800-884-1136 There were protests in Washington DC, Dayton, OH and Salt Lake City, UT and other cities calling on Bill Clinton to free Leonard Peltier. THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT BE TELEVISED, BUT IT IS BEING BROADCAST BUCK THE FCC Support Free Speech Free Radio Berkeley is under attack by the FCC because of its efforts to liberate the air waves from corporate control the airwaves. Farther legal success depends on your financial assistance. Donate today! Free Radio Berkeley Legal Defense 1442 A Walnut Street #406 Berkeley, CA 94709 FREE RADIO BERKELEY GOES TO COURT FRIDAY, APRIL 12, 1996 AT OAKLAND COURT FCC officer David Doon has indicated that has no respect for the Federal Courts claiming that they could take action regardless of how the Court rules. The San Francisco Police have excepted two helicopters equipped with spot lights from the Defense Department. They are going to fly 10 hours a day for one year. Will the helicopters be used at protests? KEITH MCHENRY ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:22:24 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Update 3/20: Peltier Parole Denied (fwd) PAROLE DENIED TO LEONARD PELTIER, 3/20/96 The following is the text of the United States Parole Commission's letter of denial to Leonard Peltier: Leonard Peltier: No change in continuing to a fifteen year reconsideration hearing, December 2008. Reasons: The December 1995 hearing led to a re-examination by the hearing examiner of the issues beyond the normal scope of an interim hearing, including the previous findings made by the Commission that you participated in the execution of two FBI agents. The limited purpose of an interim hearing under 28 Code of Federal Regulations 2.4 is to determine whether circumstances that have changed since the last hearing warrant a different decision. The Commission declines to reopen your case to re-examine your role in the offense since there are no significant changes regarding information on this issue from the information presented at your last parole consideration. You have not given a factual, specific account of your actions at the time of the offense that is consistent with the jury's verdict of guilt. Considering either theory of your participation in the crimes outlined by the government at the trial, the Commission therefore has no reasonable basis to find an explanation of the facts concerning the agents' execution other than the version presented by the government. See 28 Code of Federal Regulations S2.19C. The government has not changed its position that circumstantial evidence presented at your trial established your complicity in the executions of the agents. Their circumstantial evidence described in several of the decisions of the Eighth Circuit rejecting your appeals supports the previous findings that you participated in the executions. A full consideration of your case will not be appropriate until your 15 year reconsideration hearing. Appeal Procedures: The above decision is not appealable. 3/18/96 National Commissioners, Document Number DNJ OJ Referral pg 101 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------ The above decision is a clear and blatant example of a complete disregard for justice. The USPC states in this decision that regardless of the information brought back to them from the Parole Officer presiding at the December 11th hearing, and despite the favorable recommendation that officer made following the government's distinct concessions that no direct evidence exists against Peltier nor do they have a clue as to who was culpable in the deaths of their agents, that it is more convenient to keep an innocent man in prison than to deal with the controversy and impropriety that may erupt regarding this case. They even go as far as stating that Leonard has never given a factual account "consistent with the jury's verdict of guilt". How can an innocent man give a factual account of guilt when he is not responsible?!? Rather than face the FACTS of Peltier's outrageous incarceration, the USPC would rather scold its own employee for overstepping his bounds where they should commend him for his social conscience. Still a mystery: The Parole Officer who made the favorable recommendation has since lost his position within the USPC. VOICE YOUR OUTRAGE United States Parole Commission--Phone (301)492-5952, (301)492-5821, Fax them at (301)492-6694, (301)492-5307, (301)492-6516, (301)492-5525, Fax Janet Reno at (202)514-4371, (202)514-4507, phone (202)514-2001, (202)514-4195, Deputy AG Jamie Gorelick fax at (202)514-0467, (202)514-4699, phone (202)514-2101, Call the White House Chief of Staff fax(202)456-2883, Legal Counsel to President fax (202)456 1647, White House Comment Line at (202)456-1111 and Contact your elected officials. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:22:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: something else re Sorrentino: i find his work funny, smart, erudite, but not "deep." i very much enjoy it in moderate doses. i took a class from him at Stanford and was in the trouble-making crowd, trying to get him to assign a book by a woman or a person of color. (we lost). i've mellowed since, as my presence on this list indicates. thus i remember him w/ fond nostalgia rather than a heaven-ward roll of the eyes. bests, maria d ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:34:29 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: ACA at Las Vegas In-Reply-To: <199603211835.NAA01623@mail.erols.com> Anyone going to the Am Cult ASsoc conference in Las Vegas next week? I'll be there (tra la) starting Wednesday. Reading a paper on Mary TallMountaon on Thursday morning. Be good to meet anyone going... Gab. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 13:43:00 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: Request for addresses At 02:12 PM 3/20/96 PST, fjb wrote: > could someone post information (address, price) for lyric&? >I've read of this several places but can't find it anywhere, even, >say SPD. lyric& is available for $6 from Avery E.D. Burns, P.O. Box 640531, San Francisco, CA 94164-0531. Subscriptions are available at 2 issues for $12 (postage included). A few back issues of #s 1,2, and 3 are still available for $6 apiece. Issue 4, just out, includes work from Pat Reed, me, Jim Leftwich, Dennis Barone, Dale Smith, Lyn Hejinian, M. Kettner, Peter DeRous, Eric Selland, Laurie Price, Andrew Mossin, John Perlman, George Albon, Elizabeth Robinson, Darin DeStefano, Nico Vassilakis, Michael Basinski, Pam Rehm, Greg Biglieri, Alicia Wing, Travis Ortiz, Kevin Magee, Kristin Burkart, Brian D. Lucas, Rodrigo Toscano, Anselm Berrigan, Joe Noble, Eleni Sikelianos, the editor, and a cover by Spencer Selby. Also, lyric& #5 will feature Italian poetry, so if anyone has any leads, drop Avery a line or email them to me and I'll get them to him. Thanks. Steve ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:40:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon damon"? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 14:44:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Laura Moriarty Subject: Re: New Laura Moriarty Book Chris, thanks for the advertising! However, I wanted to make an immediate correction. The Gerbode Foundation Awards were judged by Rosmarie Waldrop, Bradford Morrow, M. Mark and Jewel Gomez, as well as Robert Creeley.I checked with Frances Philips to get the names of everyone and she said also that they were peers in the judging. ALSO - I've taken down the address and hope to become, as I have meant to for awhile, an immediate subscriber to WITZ! Best - Laura Moriarty ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 17:59:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Forgotten hours chime louder/In the meantime... Marisa---great post (and great R.B.D. quote) on lineage/dynasties... something that needs to be said over and over.... cs ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:14:00 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Steve Carll Subject: antenym 9 publication/reading Comments: To: basinski@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu, ninthlab@aol.com, kristinb@wired.com, jmbyrum@aol.com, steven_evans@brown.edu, jasfoley@aol.com, dgansz@csn.org, cynthia.huntington@mac.dartmouth.edu, andrew_joron@sfbayguardian.com, tlovell@mercury.sfsu.edu, 75323.740@compuserve.com, smithnash@aol.com, el500005@brownvm.brown.edu, ortiz@uclink.berkeley.edu, kit_robinson@peoplesoft.com, ashurin@mercury.sfsu.com, lisas@ncgate.newcollege.edu, tomt@ch1.ch.pdx.edu, mbates@s3.sonnet.com, raphael@aracnet.com, lehall@umd5.umd.edu, vrgnamgnta@aol.com, mmscott@gsbpop.uchicago.edu, eric_skiles@sedgus.com, 6500dtpt@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu, wwilcox@smtpgmgw.ossa.hq.nasa.gov, leechapman@aol.com, jbennett@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu, israfel@uci.edu, hday@alpha.utampa.edu, tunguska@tribeca.ios.com, rmorey@baaqmd.gov, 70550.654@compuserve.com This is to announce the imminent publication of Antenym #9 (in April). To celebrate, a contributors' reading and publication party will be held at 3 PM, Sunday the 14th of April, at Canessa Park Gallery, 708 Montgomery St. (at Columbus) in San Francisco. Admission will be $5. The reading will feature Anselm Berrigan, Avery E.D. Burns, Pamela Lu, Adam Cornford, Chris Daniels, Leslie Davis, Shauna Hannibal, and John McNally. Hope to see you there! Antenym 9's 50 pages of poetry and art feature the above-named folks, plus Benjamin Baxter, Jake Berry, Mark DuCharme, Graham Foust, Heather Fuller, David Golumbia, Bob Harrison, Bob Heman, Pierre Joris, Richard Kostelanetz, Tim Krafft, Hank Lazer, Jim Leftwich, Sheila E. Murphy, Spencer Selby, Eric Selland, Steven Howard Shoemaker, Gustaf Sobin, Thomas Stolmar, and Paul Wiedenhoff. It was edited by Steve Carll and designed by Kristin Burkart. It's available for $3 plus $1.50 postage payable to Steve Carll, 106 Fair Oaks St. #3, S.F., CA 94110-2951. Back issues 1-6 are available at the Electronic Poetry Center (http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/ezines/antenym). #7 should be there soon. #8 still available on real paper for $3.50 (includes postage). Once again, submissions are welcome! Steve ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 19:21:29 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Organization: State University of New York at Stony Brook Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 19 Mar 1996 to 20 Mar 1996 In-Reply-To: Pound & Lyric& Address An interesting essay for folks interested in the Pound/Fascism question is Rachel Blau DuPlessis' "Objectivist Poetics and Political Vision: A Study of Oppen and Pound" in "George Oppen: Man and Poet." (Nat.Poe.Found.) Also, there's Jean-Luc Nancy's essay "The Inoperative Community" in his book of the same name, published by Minnesota Press where he discusses the notion of fascist communion and a more left oriented idea of community. Franklin Bruno - Avery Burns publishes Lyric& and you can contact him at Lyric& Press, P.O. Box 640531, San Francisco, California, 94164-0531. He is just bringing out his most recent issue. I know he would like to hear from anyone on the Poetics List. Unfortunately, he doesn't have e-mail, but you can write him,or I would be glad to pass along any messages or requests for subscription to him. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 20:00:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Jeanne McGahey ron: don't quite catch yr. tone (or hope i don't) re: the silligism on crapsey, but as for Barlow, yes he was part of Hart's circle, and they eventually published a selection from his works. i don't think barlow was as interesting a poet as mcgahey or robert horan, but he certainly\ led the more interesting life. a beautiful boy, i've been told--a wild, rimbaud-like figure, whom the Activists thought would prove the greatest of the group. i don't know how much interest he would have here, but i'll enter some examples of his work if anyone wants to see it. in any case, he did wind up in mexico (the olson connection), and one day hung a sign on his door saying he didn't want to be disturbed: he needed a long sleep. And then took twenty-one seconal capsules. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 15:45:28 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "JNORTON.US.ORACLE.COM" Subject: More Pound cake, anyone? This Tuesday's NY Times (3/19/96) ran an obitutary on Ezra Pound's longtime companion Olga Rudge. They first met in 1928. She kept the house for him and was a traffic cop, keeping many of his admirers at a distance. She said: "We get hippies coming here and when we're in Rappelo. They have embraced the wisdom of Ezra Pound, but they haven't read him. One of them pitched a tent outside. I gave him coffee, but no Ezra. Another was so persistent in his devotion that I told him, 'I'll let you in if you can quote one line of Ezra Pound -- any one of the thousands he's written.' He couldn't. As for the biographers: "They ring my bell and announce they are writing books that 'will tell both sides.' Both sides? Both sides? What do they think we are? Ezra Pound is no pancake!" John Norton ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 01:13:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Some EPC Stats Comments: cc: Loss Glazier Here are some interesting stats re EPC usage. There were 12,616 transactions this months. (If only our presses would do so well!) Here goes: (selected results -- I'll make a link from the EPC home page for the full stats, EPC contributors might enjoy checking how many times they were accessed) (#'s indicate the # of times a directory was accessed) 3240 /epc/ 1237 /epc/authors/ 556 /epc/poetics/ 546 /epc/ezines/ 384 /epc/connects/ 302 /epc/rift/ 230 /epc/biblioteca/ 172 /epc/linebreak/ 165 /epc/mags/ 158 /epc/presses/ 150 /epc/documents/ 128 /epc/sound/ 114 /epc/epclive/ 79 /epc/ezines/we/ 288 /epc/documents/experiments 286 /epc/smallpress.html 203 /epc/documents/obits/ 181 /epc/ezines/diu/ 170 /epc/authors/bernstein/ 160 /epc/authors/cage/ 153 /epc/announcements.html 122 /epc/poetics/archive/ 97 /epc/documents/maglist 94 /epc/presses/viet 90 /epc/authors/ashbery/ 86 /epc/authors/creeley/ 81 /epc/authors/kelly/ 74 /epc/authors/sherwood/ 71 /epc/authors/silliman/ 69 /epc/authors/olson/ 69 /epc/mags/sulfur/ 64 /epc/authors/glazier/ 60 /epc/ezines/brink/ 58 /epc/authors/bunting/ 57 /epc/ezines/passages/ 56 /epc/ezines/tree/ 56 /epc/authors/howe/ 50 /epc/authors/eigner/ 46 /epc/documents/bookstores 31 /epc/authors/spinelli/ 31 /epc/authors/glazier/e/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 04:57:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: FREE PELTIER (fwd) all this hub-bubbing about peltier, what'd he supposedly do? and what happened? i mean besides he was wrongfully imprisoned, the details i mean. i always like to know what i'm talking about before calling the politicians, gives me an edge on the fuckers... eryque ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 03:54:55 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Adelaide Crapsey Adelaide Crapsey (1878-1914) died young, but was otherwise of the same generation of Gertrude Stein and Robert Frost, for example.* All of her books were, I believe, posthumous (two volumes, each called Verse, and the A Study in English Metrics, which I read thru when I was in college). [Since Knopf published both one volume of the poems and the critical book, they might still be hiding in larger, older libraries.] She counted everything when thinking about a poem (you can imagine how I feel about that!) and did not simply work with received categories. Many of her poems are 5 liners, always with a 2-4-6-8-2 syllable count: AMAZE I know Not these my hands And yet I think there was A woman like me once had hands Like these. She is nowhere nearly as far "out there" as an innovator, say, as Loy, but her sense of generative form is evident. Can anybody tell me if she was the first American female poet to produce a critical/theoretical volume? It seems possible. I was using her as a figure of a branch of modernism that did not carry itself forward (exactly an instance of the "disappeared"). In Crapsey's case, she was not part of a "scene" that I can tell of (not really an imagist or even an Amygist), and her use of inverted syntax really dates the work. I take the Activist poets to be a similar phenomenon. As are, for that matter, virtually all west coast poets before WW2 -- even Michael Davidson's great book on the SF Renaissance fails to make much of the links between, say, Ina Coolbrith and George Stirling and the scene that emerged later around Rexroth. *Another poet born in the 1870s was Joyce Kilmer, who likewise died young. It is intriguing in retrospect to see just whom one gets bunched with in literary history -- I don't think of Kilmer and Stein as "of the same generation" at all. Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 09:31:45 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Leddy Subject: Re: Sorrentino In-Reply-To: Sorrentino's Selected Poems is still available from Black Sparrow. There are some interesting poems in Talisman's William Bronk issue and in Arshile 3, though they don't explain where Sorrentino's poetry has been since the Black Sparrow volume. Aberration of Starlight is a remarkable novel. And the Dalkey Archive's claims for it in the "classroom" are not exaggerated. Nice too if you're from Brooklyn. Michael Leddy Charleston, IL (nee Brooklyn) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 08:05:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: Adelaide Crapsey Thnak you, Ron Silliman, for restoring my faith. Hey everyone, Ron's not such an ogre after all! Soory to doubt you for even a second! XXX Kevin K. Mea culpa. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 09:23:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: U.D.C. In-Reply-To: <199603220539.AAA20664@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Have heard nothing till now of U.D.C. cuts & protest -- as a graduate of that school (where, though we didn't read Olson in class, I did have classes with C.L.R. James & other equally great scholars [Gil Scott Heron, too, but that's another story]) I want to know as much as possible -- Could someone give me relevant dates so I can look up Washington Post coverage in library when I get back from Detroit -- also, if anybody can lay hands upon and xerox relevant coverage by papers not likely to be in the UCLA library (*city paper, etc) & send them to me, I would be truly grateful: A.L. Nielsen 1743 Butler Avenue Apt. #2 Los Angeles, CA 90025 From what's appeared here on the list, it sounds as though this was as significant a chain of events as the student protest in New York last year -- but as per usual, no coverage in most news outside D.C. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:06:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jeffrey W. Timmons" Subject: Re: U.D.C. In-Reply-To: Aldon, Hey, I actually found, after my initially unsuccessful exploration, an article buried in the VERY BACK of the NYT in this week's wednesday (or perhaps thursday's) edition. I didn't find it the first time--cause I usually recycle the business section. The article was terribly vague, though, and actually left more unsaid than it explained. I guess that shouldn't surprise me. If you find out more, please pass it along. Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:07:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jeffrey W. Timmons" Subject: Re: U.D.C. Comments: To: "Aldon L. Nielsen" In-Reply-To: Sorry everyone, I didn't mean to send my recent post to the list. booboo. jeffrey timmons ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 13:09:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Jaeger Subject: Re: Visual Poetry In-Reply-To: Can anyone contribute to a list of addresses (snail or email) for magazines that currently & primarily publish visual poetry, in Canada, States, anywhere? Peter Jaeger ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 13:08:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Adelaide Crapsey ron: i'm interested to see george stirling (that is the spelling?) mentioned; he was deeply transformed by french symbolists and produced an often dark but formal verse with the french not far away. rexroth like to see himself as a principal conduit for french influence in america, and stirling's somewhat more misty version would not have pleased him. he liked to say that stirling killed himself the day he (Rexroth) arrived in San Francisco. actually, as i recall, that's wrong--together with a number of other rexroth claims. rexroth was such a good publicist--and terrific poet-- that his prejudices may have led people away from some minor, but real, pleasures, like stirling. stirling's work is very "aesthetic" with all the associations, including homosexuality, that this implied for his generation. and stirling was very close to jack london. whether or not they were lovers, i don't know, tho there are those assert that they were. in any case, london's boyishness, which some of us would find one of his most beguiling and attractive features, was no more acceptable to rexroth than stirling's aestheticism and misty symbolism, and rexroth could be, quite unfairly, vicious toward them both. i was very glad that the ferlinghetti/peters book on the bay area gave attention to the london/stirling circle. there's also a fairly competent TUSAS book on stirling, and much has been done on london, tho most of it is biographical and anecdotal. but _martin eden_ is quite a good book and has very interesting (puzzling and ambiguous) fictional portrait of stirling. -- Another french presence in the bay area worth looking at is c.f. mcintyre. his translations of the symbolists are still around. he also published original work, musical and vague. he was in berkeley while rexroth was establishing his anarchist circle in san francisco, but i'm not aware of any overlap. if i recall correctly, one of the early issues of leite's _circle_ (maybe the first issue) has an article on rilke by mcintyre (his rilke translations are also still in print. a norton book?). anyway, i've often wondered if this was one of the things that led spicer to rilke; that's the right time (c. 1946) exactly. -- i once asked various survivors of that era about mcintyre, what he was like and so forth, and what i got was stange looks, as in (i thought) let's be discrete. there was something about his drinking. -- But I'd like to know more, and I think there was a book (another of those ghosts) promised, tho it did not appear. -- whatever the case, myintyre, like stirling, should be pursued, if only to define what _didn't_ happen but could have, if they had had rexroth's abilities as poet/publicist. it was after all a perfectly legimate direction, and it's interesting to speculate what might have happened in west coast poetry in the 1950s and 1960s (and, therefore, now) if either had been able to modulate their french sources into english as well as stevens did. -ed ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 13:57:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Adelaide Crapsey i think joyce kilmer was male, if i've been told correctly. --maria d ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 14:15:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Re: reading Pound What Greek logomachy had in common with the Hebrew poison was debate, dialectic, sophistry, the critical activity that destroys faith. .... The Hebrew attack, crying our for vengeance, began by destroying the Roman Gods. ... But faith is weakened by debates, [which are] more or less rabbinical and if not rabbinical at least anti- totalitarian. _`Che l'intenzione per ragione vale."_ Faith is totalitarian. The mystery is totalitarian. The sacred symbols are totalitarian. The destruction of the images of the Gods did not increase faith. ... ... That fatal inclination to want to understand logically and syllogistically what is incomprehensible is Hebrew and Protestant. --Ezra Pound, 1942 (in _Meridiano di Roma_), qtd by Peter Nicholls in _EP: Politics, Economics and Writing_ * THUS, in thanks to Jerry, Marjorie, Jackson, Rachel, and the rest of the Poetics "Jews" and Protest-ants (irregardless of ethnic origin) who insist on debating what they/we cannot understand. This is Charles Bernstein speaking ... from the Upper West Side of Manhattan, home of Zabar's and Barney Greengrass, the Sturgeon King. & now for some further sophistry: "the critical activity which destroys faith": * Many of the poets and critics who discount Pound do not do so because of his fascism but because of a dislike for collage, parataxis, and the very strikingly rhetorical surfaces of Pound's poems. They also discount other poets, working in related modes, whose politics are quite contrary to Pound's. The converse of this is also true, as the remarkable posts by Rothenberg, Mac Low, and Perloff, among others, have shown. In this context, I don't take the new wave of Pound criticism that regards fascism as central to Pound's poetic project to be a move away from reading Pound or as a way of undermining his significance or influence. This new Pound criticism, which in some ways incorporates aspects of what has come to be called cultural criticism, or cultural and gender studies, tries to integrate Pound's political and economic ideas with his poetic practice. Like all critical projects, this one is limited. Much of the best Pound criticism before this period tended in various ways to cauterize or surgically remove the cancerous parts of Pound's work, or career, in an attempt to save the good parts. Partly this was a strategy to "save" the work, but it was equally a forceful interpretative system, an "apolitics" of poetry if you will. (Peter Nicholls: "Most previous criticism of [Pound's] work has, from a variety of motives, sought to keep these different strands separate, tending in particular to drive a web between the 'literary' and poltical dimensions in his writing.") Starting in the 1980s, critics like Nicholls (a deep lurker on this list), Rachel DuPlessis, Richard Sieburth, Jerome McGann, Burton Hatlen, Bob Perelman, and others, but most militantly Robert Casillo, tried to integrate Pound's political and economic and gender ideologies into the "tropical system" that is his poetry. In doing this, these readers were giving Pound the respect of taking him at his word, in contrast to those critics who, like well meaning relatives, were often forced to say Pound didn't know what he was talking about. The point here is not to say one approach or the other is right but to note that these approaches allow for different readings of Pound's poetry. None of this work, it seems to me, ought to drive one from reading Pound; quite on the contrary. (Possibly this may be the work of a distinctly younger generation of scholars who no longer felt that raising these issues aligned their views with those who roundly dismissed Pound in the postwar period; this earlier polarization pushed those who went to the defense of Pound's poetry to avoid dwelling on the relation it has to his politics and views on money.) Casillo and Sieburth actually brought me back to reading Pound; that is, reading through the fascism and masculinism brought me from a passive, largely unarticulated, aversion to Pound, to an active, and ongoing, interest in all aspects of his work. Certainly I have been polemical in my essays on Pound, but not without the ironic realization that Pound relished just this sort of poetic polemicism. Reading Pound through the fascism means reading Pound in the most specific social and historical terms. It also means reading poetic forms politically, as an economy of signs; it means thinking through the implications of poetic structures, rather than imagining them ever to be neutral or transparent. A poem including history means we must read the history too, and this history is writ in the style, in the symbolic/semiotic economy of the poem, in the material means of production, as much as in Pound's "disembodied" "ideas" -- a matrix of material meanings that Christine Froula so brilliantly calls "The Pound Error": error as much in Joan Retallack's sense of typos and errancy as in political misjudgment: it's _all_ there. Poetry is not worth reading because it is comfortable or happy or understandable or uplifting, any more than history or philosophy is. Nor does reading for a politics of poetic form mean that forms are liberating; more often we find, as Ray DiPalma once wrote, that "all forms are coercive". If one starts with the assumption that a poetry should be truthful or beautiful, that it's meaning should transcend the circumstances of its production -- then of course talk of the politics of Pound's poetic forms will seem dismissive of Pound's work, since it pulls that work down from the heights of poetic vanity into the real-politics of the actual poem in actual history. People say, Pound was deluded, Pound was insane, Pound was paranoid, Pound was delusional, as a way to explain away, or possibly contextualize, his fascism. I don't doubt this, but it doesn't get me anywhere. Fascism itself was (IS) delusional and paranoid, and Hitler and Mussolini and Goebbels are certifiable in my book, as are the shouting Brown Shirts pictured in Triumph of the Will (don't we call this "mass hysteria"?). [Highly recommended, in this context, in the recent documentary on Riefenstahl, "The Wonderful, Horrible World of Leni Riefenstahl".] I agree with Pierre Joris that what's important to understand as we approach the end of this long century is the nature of this delusion, of this insanity, that has attracted so many otherwise admirable, sometimes brilliant, people, groups, indeed cultures. Of course Pound was delusional during the period of his Radio Speeches; reading Pound means reading through these delusions, trying to come to terms with them. It doesn't mean that in making these judgments one is free of one's own delusions, or that such a reading gives a complete account of this poetic works, which demands multiple, contradictory, readings. Pound was not just a fascist; he had different politics, and poetics, at different points in his life and even at some of the same points. Nicholls notes that from 1930 to 1937, Pound was eager to keep a dialogue open with the American Left; and earlier in his life his views seemed more Left than Right, although, reading Nicholls, one begins to see this as much as a weakness in the Life/Right distinction as an inconsistency on Pound's part. Nicholls also shows that "perhaps the most disquieting thing about [Pound's] savage propaganda is that it was to some degree an extension of ideas that had governed the earlier Cantos." Indeed, Nicholls's tracings of the (de?)evolution of the practice of "authority" and "ideological closure" in Pound's work is crucial for understanding a fundamental dynamic of modernism. Yet Pound's poetry is never simply a direct reflection of his politics; indeed, I would argue quite to the contrary that Pound's work contradicts his fascism. The fascist reading of Pound's poetic practice is valuable as one approach; it is not a final or definitive reading; as with all critical methods, it illuminates some issues while obscuring others. Of course, as Casillo's book and other Pound criticism shows, it also may push the criticism to the polemical and even hysterical, as if the critic feels she or he is wrestling with a demon more than interpreting a poem. This too needs to be historicized and contextualized before it can be judged. Pound told Allen Ginsberg he suffered from "that stupid, suburban prejudice of antisemiticm", as if he should have been immune from such a low, "suburban" consciousness. But one thing that is notable about Pound is that he does not appear to have been "personally" antisemitic, which would have been in no way unusual for a person of his generation and background. His attacks on Jews are not related to his hatred of individual Jews or his desire to be a member of an "exclusive" country club. His views of Jews are highly theoretical and structural, projecting Jewishness, more than individual Jews, as the core force in the destruction of the most cherished values of the West. This demonization is not a "stupid suburban prejudice", it is the systematic paranoia-producing ideology that has come to be called by the fascism. (Burton Hatlen: "we will all seriously misundertand fascism if we insist on seeing it as a "right-wing" poltical movement. For fascsim ... blended an authoritarianism ususally associated with the `right' and a `populism' ususally characteristic of the `left'.") Marjorie Perloff is quite right to point to it in Buchanan and the fundamentalist right; they too have gone well beyond "stupid suburban prejudice", even as they bank on it. It is scary to see the degree to which fascist ideas have rooted themselves so deeply in mainstream American life, often in the guise of family values and consonance with a natural order. Pound's most fascist polemics resonate in an eery way with the current wave of attacks on the arts, gays, the disenfranchised poor, immigrants, feminism, and the cities. I say this because there is often a tendency among Americans to exoticize fascism; Pound did his best to bring it home. There are any number of fascist writers who are of virtually no interest to many or probably any of us on this list. And there are virulent antisemites like Celine, whose work I like more than is comfortable to say, but which I don't find as structurally and "tropically" rich in terms of the sort of issues I am raising here. Pound's work, it seems to me, not only allows for but provokes an ideological reading; it insists that it be read, form and content, for its politics and its ideas. And it is precisely this that is one of the _enduring_ values of his work. The dystopian aspects of Pound's work are important to fully explore, even with tempers flying off the page, because he is a fundamental a part of that elective tradition (thinking of Christopher Beech's useful sense of Pound's influence in his _ABC of Influence: Ezra Pound and the Remaking of American Poetic Tradition_) that, as Beach and others have noted, consists mostly of poets whose politics and economics differ so radically from Pound's. But the more important Pound is for that tradition, then the more important it is to understand the disease that consumes his work, which cannot be disentangled from what is "good" about it. Nicholls, for example, notes how Pound's insistence on "making it new" made for an affinity with related fascist ideals. The significance of "the Pound tradition" requries that we interrogate it for what it excludes as much as what it makes possible: interrogate the assumptions of poetic lineages not just to acknowledge their effects but also to counteract their effects. (Perhaps one aspect of this elective tradition is a commitment to difficult writers and difficult writings; after spending some weeks lately writing about Laura (Riding) Jackson, that possibility is hard to miss.) Marjorie urges us to "begin at home" with our political concerns, to look around at what is happening in 1996 in America. Given the context of her own life experience, her warning is all the more ominous, all the more to be headed. But also, I would say, I hope within the spirit of her wake- up call, but also in the spirit of "debate", that in the context of this Poetics list, taking on Pound's fascism is also a way of starting at home. * N.B. The first paperback edition of The Cantos (expanded) is due this spring from New Directions ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 14:18:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: Nourbese Philip A step away from them: The Poetry Project at St Mark's Church will host a reading by Yukihide Maeshima Hartman & M. Nourbese Philip on April 29, 8 p.m. Suggested contribution of $6. St. Mark's is at 131 E 10th St, NYC 10003. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 14:26:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian McHale Subject: Re: Adelaide Crapsey In-Reply-To: Message of 03/22/96 at 03:54:55 from rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM By way of supplementing Ron's account of Crapsy, let me just add: "the" book on Crapsey is by Karen Alkalai-Gut, entitled "Alone in the Dawn." Full-dress bio- graphy, with some reflection on AC's poetics, & reprints here & there much of her (rather small) oeuvre. Brian ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 15:43:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: environmental/cultural antisemitism charles is right to write of antisemitism in first half of century to be structural and theoretical. i'm reading a book of essays responding to otto weininger, self-hating austrian jew who wwwrote 'sex and character" in 1903, vicious tho highly abstract attack on women and Jews, then killed himself in the same house that beethoven died in. weininger participated in/crystalized much of the "characterology" of his time, that scientized and racialized personality types, temperaments, various physical and mental abilities, etc. many self-respecting Jews, like Gertrude Stein and Freud, found aspects of weininger's work appealing. i have no opinion on the current pound debate raging on this list; i'm not a big fan, but not allergic either. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 16:44:43 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Odysseas Elytis Last night I hear from my friend Ethel at APR that Odysseas Elytis had died earlier in the week. I'm not sure if this is common knowledge (or even correct for that matter). Considering I don't read daily media, this might be known, but is there anyone else on the list who has any more information. What I do know is that the Axiom Esti is a phenominal piece, one that taught me an intense layering of the lyric. david.baratier@mosby.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 15:59:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Carl Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 20 Mar 1996 to 21 Mar 1996 >You know, we have to do something to ensure that Dalkey Archive doesn't >succumb to commercial pressures now that its main editorial God, Steven >Moore, is leaving. ---Marisa (debeetled) > Too late, they have already pulled their books from SPD and are now being distributed by a "large" distributor (one of the universities I believe). . . ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 15:59:36 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Carl Subject: you decide "It would seem that the communion between a man and his power to choose cannot long be endured. Among the rebels, some have unconditionally surrendered to the Communist discipline, others to a revealed religion, while others-- those most loyal to their youth-- have split their lives in two: in their roles as citizens, husbands, lovers, or fathers, they follow the rule of a fairly conservative reason, localizing their revolt in literature or poetry, which thereby becomes a religion. "It is true enough that sheer rebellion is insincere. As soon as we desire something or call others to witness, that is, as soon as we live, we imply that the world is, in principle, in harmony with itself and others with ourselves. We are born into reason as into language. But the reason at which we arrive must not be the same reason we abandoned with such a flurish. The experience of unreason cannot simply be forgotten: we must form a new idea of reason. . . "Likewise, if we are to rediscover a system of morals, we must find it through contact with the conflicts revealed by immoralism. As Simone de Beauvoir's book L'INVITEE points out, it is a question of knowing whether there is indeed a certain line of conduct which can justify each man in the eyes of his fellows or whether, on the contrary, our condition does not make all ways of behaving mutually unforgivable and whether, in such a situation, all moral principles are not merely a way to reassure rather than to save ourselves, a way to wave questions aside instead of answering them. In morality as in art there is no solution for the man who will not make a move without knowing where he is going and who wants to be accurate and in control at every moment. Our only resort is the spontaneous movement which binds us to others for good or ill, out of selfishness or generosity." Merleau-Ponty SENSE AND NONSENSE ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 20:42:49 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: reading Pound charles --- thanks for that summing-up. yeah. chris ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.22.96 8:42:49 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wuorinen a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 20:52:30 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: yet another open letter due to an impassioned request from larry price, i have decided NOT to unsubscribe from this list. i am issuing a public warning to those who flamed me: i have saved all yr vileness and if you dare to flame me again i will post everything you have sent me, except for the nearly 100 pieces of blank mail. it was very stupid of you to flame me in the first place --- even stupider not to do it anonymously. i've got you, proud bullies, right where i want you. ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.22.96 8:52:30 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wuorinen a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 01:57:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Re: Visual Poetry If you want information about the Australian concrete poetry scene, contact TT.O. (greek symbols Pi and Omicron) and thalia c/o Collective Effort Press P.O. Box 2430V GPO Melbourne, Australia They printed an anthology of works by TT.O. (say Pi O), thalia, ACR, Jas Duke, and loads of others who continue today. Also, they can hook you up with the Italian scene, namely a dictionary of women's language using concrete poetry. Tell them you got the info from Laura Hope-Gill; give 'em my best. Laura Hope-Gill c/o GHawkins ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 05:00:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: The Bay scene in 1950s Ed, I wonder if any of the KQED shows that Rexroth still survive. He would sit in a chair next to a table with a little bookcase behind him (vain attempt at "home library" effect) and comment on 10 or 12 books per show. This was in the late 1950s more or less (we got the telly in '55). Often just pick up one, sniff at it and grumble, "now this is real poop." Other than Readers Digest Condensed Novels and a World Book Encyclopedia, we had no books in our house, but for some reason my grandparents did watch that show with some regularity. I was too young to have figured out how to actually get hold of those books (that came later). Rexroth was pretty much a household word in the Bay Area, even in households where writers were not household words in any sense. I've seen McIntyre's work in print, but actually did not know of the Berkeley connection at all. Josephine Miles (who turned me on to Crapsey in '69 or '70) had been "the poet" in the UC department for decades. Rob Wilson -- whom Susan Schultz and Gab Wellford must know -- was one of Jo's regular students and might have gotten more detail. ((Miles, whom I knew only very slightly, was very scrupulous about putting contexts around works and readings--when she told Melnick and I that poets in the 1940s didn't know how to read Williams, how the work would even sound, I trust that statement, foreign as it seems to my own sensibility.)) Burt Hatlen (is he a lurker here?) was Parkinson's TA in the 50s. He might have some detail as well. He was very lucky to have been out of the country on a grant when a deranged student shot and killed Parkinson's then-TA (and wounded Tom), because TP had refused to sign a loyalty oath, in (I think) 1956. Ron ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 05:08:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Adelaide Crapsey You wrote: > >i think joyce kilmer was male, if i've been told correctly. --maria d > Yes, he was. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 05:43:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Odysseas Elytis There was an obit in the NY Times on Tuesday, 3/19. On the same page, I believe (or maybe the facing page), as one for Olga Rudge. Made no mention of his time as a political prisoner on Youra. Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 08:40:48 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 20 Mar 1996 to 21 Mar 1996 >>You know, we have to do something to ensure that Dalkey Archive doesn't >>succumb to commercial pressures now that its main editorial God, Steven >>Moore, is leaving. ---Marisa (debeetled) >> > >Too late, they have already pulled their books from SPD and are now being >distributed by a "large" distributor (one of the universities I believe). . . They are distributed by Consortium, which is probably more of a mid-sized distributor by commercial standards, although quite large for "small press." But Sun & Moon, Coach House, and a few other very productive small presses are distributed by Consortium. I do believe Consortium asks for some kind of exclusive arrangement, but that in various cases books they distribute are also made available through SPD and perhaps other sources. Sorry I don't have the details. Consortium, as some of you know, was begun by a former partner in Bookslinger, and began and achieved at least part of its success (not without struggles) by taking the 8 or so best-selling presses away from Bookslinger, contributing to the difficulties Bookslinger faced in its last several years and its eventual closing. But of places distributing small press books (although only the biggest of the small), Consortium has had good deal of success placing books in bookstores -- so it's quite a mixed story. Dalkey Archive has actually been with Consortium for some time, not just recently. So perhaps Dalkey has a new development in its distribution, too. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 09:35:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: On way to Detroit -- Check in again in a week In-Reply-To: <199603230529.AAA20367@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> I believe Joyce Kilmer is a rest stop in New Jersey ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 10:41:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: SPT newsletter in space This is Dodie. Thanks to everyone who e-mailed me with news/advice about my bulk mailing. Apparently, according to e-mail knowledgeable listservers, bulk mail can vary dramatically from place to place, and when there are only a few pieces going to a location, it can take forever. So, hang in there and keep in touch. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 10:17:09 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: charming naivete, etc. well, all this supportive private mail i've gotten has made me feel sort of cocky 1. eight charmingly naive writers tutuola bob brown blake whitman patchen stein dickinson shakespeare 2. charmingly naive and derivative poem by me Maelsublime cinder through seiasche throe moumiamiller's multure rest in shoddy corrugate stasis its misspelled label hammer glyphs down remain reft smallest words roun with her throh _timor mortis conturbat me_ --- for jim leftwich after Mandala Damages _flowers unfolding reft truffle_ 3. rose read wrote me this >I often wonder how the others on this list, almost all of whom I respect a >great deal, feed their work -- their writing. There isn't much discussion >of the writing process itself ... yeah, me too --- how abt it? yrs --- chris ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.23.96 10:17:09 am q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wuorinen a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 15:45:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "John E. Matthias" Subject: Crapsey & Winters It's interesting to see a few references to Adelaide Crapsey. When I was briefly a student of Yvor Winters' in 1963, Crapsey's work was still on his syllabus where presumably it had remained for thirty years. Everyone read what little there was to read. It's interesting, too, that Winters acknowledged Crapsey as an influence on his own early (modernist) poetry, along with translations from the Japanese and early translations from Native American poetry that appeared in the Indian bulletins of the Smithsonian Institution (especially those by Washington Matthews, Frances Densmore, and Frank Russell, all of whom were anthropologists). Anyway, in 1941 Winters called Crapsey "certainly an immortal poet...and one of the most famous poets of our century" ("Post Scripta" to _In Defense of Reason_). By 1967, the year of his death, he calls Crapsey "almost forgotten" and attributes part of the cause to "the anthologists, who have an infallible taste for the weakest work of any poet whom they consider." A great lister of poems, Winters cites (in _Forms of Discovery_) Snow, Anguish, Moon-Shadows, Night-Winds, Roma Aeterna, Amaze, Niagara, For Lucas Cranach's Eve, Dirge, Song, Angelique, Chimes, To Man Who Goes Seeking Immortality. He calls it "a formidable list." Winters identified with Crapsey in various ways, in part because of her illness. He, too, had tuberculosis. Anyone unaware of Winters' early poetry ought to have a look at it. Much of it was written in New Mexico, where Winters was recovering at a sanatorium, and in Colorado once he was up and about. Marianne Moore sent him books from the New York Public Library ("very kindly, but I am sure illegally"). And he had his subscriptions to _Poetry_, _Others_, and _The Little Review_. He wrote all of _The Immobile Wind_ and most of _The Magpie's Shadow_ in the sanatorium in Santa Fe. And he would have been reading Crapsey there. It's an interesting early conjunction--Crapsey, Haiku, the anthropologists' translations of Native American poetry, and also Rimbaud, whose work Winters deciphered with the help of a disapproving French priest. The dates were 1921-1927. He tells the story in his Introduction to _The Early Poems of Yvor Winters_. Anyone interested in this phase of Winters' career should also read his short story, "The Brink of Darkness." Readers who only know the later Winters of Stern Measures might be surprised as well by the early reviews published in _The Uncollected Essays and Reviews of Yvor Winters_(Swallow Press) where he expresses great enthusiasm for modernist writers whose work he later dismissed. This book also includes his important 1928 review of _The Path on the Rainbow: An Anthology of Songs and Chants from the Indians of North America_. John Matthias ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 18:09:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Adelaide Crapsey yes, aldon, kilmer is a rest stop and whitman is a bridge... a toll bridge... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 20:43:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: charming naivete, etc. hey chris daniels, i like yr poem and yr energy. another charmingly naive poet is thazarbell biggs, whose poem about human anatomy was published by adventures in poetry in the 1970s. I teach it as often as i can. sometimes jamaica kindcaid comes out with a cn. phrase, like, the queen of england was "extremely not beautiful." i'm hooked on that kinda stuff, but i'm suspicious of my own taste for it cuz i wonder if i'm being patronizing. but i think not, see an article (by moi) in cultural critique from 1990 or so called "tell them about us" (also half a chapter in my one and only booky-poo) that analyzes poetry by South Boston teenaged schoolgirls. lots of people don't "get" why i love this stuff, think i'm being a do-gooder or a politico with no aesthetic taste, but i love it AS POETRY. i could go on and on... how does shakespeare rate as charmingly naive? esplain? bests, maria ps as for flamers, judge not lest etc. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 20:43:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Crapsey & Winters john mathias: what was it like to work with winters. i was at stanford from 1981-88, and many of us saw his legacy as oppressive: ginsberg had, at the time i arrived, never been asked to read at SU, etc. i've heard, tho, that he was a devoted tEACHER who supported the early careers of folks like thom gunn, scott momaday, etc. bests, maria d ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 21:28:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: you decide dear david carl-- very interesting Merleau-Ponty quote... I am especially attracted to the part in which he writes "others--those most loyal to their youth--have split their lives in two...." The "conservative" and "moral" "private life" vs. the the "public" and "immoral" aesthetic seems to be the distinction here. If so, it seems to be a somewhat accurate description of much poetry--though not, say, the more bohemian bernadette mayer, eileen myles, or berrigan. Some seem to split their life in two in EXACTLY the oppposite way....Radical lifestyle but linguistically "conservative." Anyway, YOU DECIDE.... thanks for the quote again. chris s. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 18:30:11 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: FW: Re: charming naivete, etc. --- On Sat, 23 Mar 1996 20:43:12 -0500 Maria Damon wrote: >hey chris daniels, i like yr poem and yr energy. another charmingly naive >poet is thazarbell biggs, whose poem about human anatomy was published by >adventures in poetry in the 1970s. I teach it as often as i can. sometimes >jamaica kindcaid comes out with a cn. phrase, like, the queen of england was >"extremely not beautiful." i'm hooked on that kinda stuff, but i'm >suspicious of my own taste for it cuz i wonder if i'm being patronizing. but >i think not, see an article (by moi) in cultural critique from 1990 or so >called "tell them about us" (also half a chapter in my one and only >booky-poo) that analyzes poetry by South Boston teenaged schoolgirls. lots >of people don't "get" why i love this stuff, think i'm being a do-gooder or a >politico with no aesthetic taste, but i love it AS POETRY. i could go on and >on... as cld i. it's the (as i feel it) unpremeditated quality of such writing that gets to me --- i understand yr self-concern, tho --- there is always the danger of seeing a writer like amos tutuola as a kind of side-show. tell me what to read by jamaica kincaid --- i've never even heard of her. the british poet john clare was another cn., wonderful poet. >how does shakespeare rate as charmingly naive? esplain? shakespeare rates as charmingly naive because he started in the stables, was basically unschooled, and somehow became, in most people's opinion, the greatest poet in the english language. no one really knows how or why he started writing. last week i heard duncan mcnaughton lecture on the sonnets --- very moving to hear such a wonderful poet reduced to silence when he began to speak abt his own reaction to King Lear --- "it's just so sad" was all he cld say. i was humbled. later --- chris ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.23.96 6:30:11 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wuorinen a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:11:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KUSZAI Subject: Announcing _Broken English_ by Dodie Bellamy & Bob Harrison Comments: cc: core-l@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu Announcing: _Broken English_ Dodie Bellamy and Bob Harrison Meow Press 32pp. 4.75"x4.75" with cover art by Peter Mitchell-Dayton $6.00 Available from Small Press Distribution 1814 San Pablo Avenue Berkeley, California 94702 510-549-3336 or from the publisher (see below) From a review by Michael Stancliff By any conventional standards, _Broken English_ is a pornographic text. But is it so in the world of small press poetry and poetics? It remains to be seen whether or not the authors, publisher or distributors will encounter the legal turbulence that would validate such a genre distinction. Such affairs seem unlikely given the low profile and limited circulation of the small press scene. This raises an interesting question: Will a book be marked as pornographic if it remains unprofitable and circulated locally (the local here constituted not geographically but by a community of readers and writers)? This comes early in the book: Can we cuddle and fuck? Can we fuck too? Can you see me kneeling there on the floor in front of you, unzipping your pants with my teeth, one hand on each of your thighs, my little pointed tongue with its red tip licking the honey from the tip of your cock? Can't keep your pussy off my dick. Dear Fuck Slug. Dear Fuck Toy. Dear Three-Headed Cock. Dear True Cranberry. Desire for you is dripping out of my pussy like hot wax.. Do you like it when I suck your nipples? Do you like to move all that roughness across something smooth and vulnerable, my breast for instance...Do you still want me to cover your face with come? Do you wanna fuck our brains out? I cite this passage only to suggest that a representational passage might be tagged, to suggest how, after many pages, this erotico- fantastic prose does indeed effect a genericism in keeping with much print porn. But this text, ironically, exploits the transgressive language of porn, employing it in an interesting poetic project. _Broken English_, its "closeness to the body," reminds us that "plain language" might still be more radical than the _detourment_ and monkey-wrenching poetic satire of much language and post-language writing. The language of sex engages all the legal and social issues surrounding porn, begging questions of the small press community: What is the status of the "marginality" of the texts we produce, circulate and read? Where and how do we transgress, and are those transgressions merely literary? But there are other things to say about the passage above. Notice the way in which the biological specificity simultaneously highlights and negates gender and sexual identities. Notice also the litany of addresses. This is an incredibly intimate book, not because its ostensible subject matter is sex, but because of the continual emphasis of a "you" and an "I" morphing in and out of one another in moments of narcissistic projection and simultaneous embodiment/consumption of the other. "I'm going to fuck you so that our bloods move next to each other. I'm going to fuck you until I can't tell where my body is, until we've lost all our boundaries and even the most complex 4-color map will not be able to separate us again." With the desire to embody a lover comes a straining to embody sex acts in language acts. Sexual and compositional energy are linked again and again. Genital excretions become language--"I write in large cursive letters with my come on your chest...My pussy's all wet now, and now my finger, the middle finger of my left hand, is covered with my pussy's wetness, and I'm getting it on the keyboard...If you say that writing is a sexual experience, then collaboration would have to be a kind of fucking, right?" The brute rhythmic force of the prose radiates this doomed effort to join these realms of action. Hence the wonderfully dedicated quality of the declaration: I WILL NOT JERK OFF, I HAVE WORK TO DO. I WILL NOT JERK OFF. This is an incredibly ironic line in such a masturbatory text, but it makes a great deal of sense--The speaker eschews the release of sexual energy that is not directed towards intimacy with another, that does not fuel the "WORK" of the writing which, in the endless inventiveness of its sexual reference constitutes an urgent address. Constant climax. Mind-fuck virtuoso fantasy. OTHER TITLES AVAILABLE FROM MEOW PRESS George Albon, _King_ $5 Andrews, Bernstein, Sherry, _Technology/Art: 20 Brief Proposals_ $5 Rachel Tzvia Back, _Litany_ $6 Michael Basinski, _Cnyttan_ $5 Charles Bernstein, _The Subject_ $6 Jonathan Brannen, _The Glass Man Left Waltzing_ $5 Dubravka Djuric, _Cosmopolitan Alphabet_ $5 Robert Fitterman, _Metropolis_ $5 Benjamin Friedlander, _A Knot is Not a Tangle_ $5 Benjamin Friedlander, _Anterior Future_ $5 (New Reprint!) Peter Gizzi, _New Picnic Time_ $5 Loss P. Glazier, _The Parts_ $5 Mark Johnson, _Three Bad Wishes_ $6 Pierre Joris, _Winnetou Old_ $5 Elizabeth Robinson, _Iemanje_ $5 (New Reprint!) Leslie Scalapino, _The Line_ $5 (New Reprint!) James Sherry, _4 For_ $5 Ron Silliman, _Xing_ $6 Misko Suvakovic, _Pas Tout_ $5 Juliana Spahr, _Testimony_ $6 Bill Tuttle, _Epistolary Poems_ $5 Coming Soon: Wendy Kramer, _Patinas_ $6 Aaron Shurin, _Codex_ $6 Meredith Quartermain, _Terms of Sale_ $6 SPECIAL OFFER TO POETICS LIST SUBSCRIBERS! We'd like to thank those of you who took us up on our last offer and we'd also like to renew that offer: 4 books for the price of 3 & 7 books for the price of 5. Because our institutional support is limited, and the labor involved in making these books is great, we would like to urge those of you with available means to subscribe to the press. As a subscriber, you will be entitled to all of the Meow Press publications: 10 publications are scheduled for the upcoming Spring-Summer Series & another 10 are planned for the 3rd Anniversary Series, which commences in August. Please write for more information: Joel Kuszai Meow Press 151 Park Street Buffalo, NY 14201 v369t4kj@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu kuszai@acsu.buffalo.edu EPHEMERA SERIES Published in extremely limited editions (number of copies in parentheses) Free with subscriptions and to friends of the press SDDDRTT-123 by Bishop Morda (10) (no longer available) Report on Community by Joel Kuszai (50) Filmic 10 by Joel Kuszai (50) Riven by Cynthia Kimball (100) Barstokai by Michael Basinski (100) 28 for the Road by Kristin Prevallet (100) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 02:22:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: reading report: hunt/killian/foster On friday (the first one in spring--though you wouldn't guess by the snow), at the recently renovated ICHOR gallery, Sean killian, Erica (erika?) Hunt and Ed Foster read their poetry....Since Jordan D. wasn't there (at least I didn't see him), I felt I'd steal his schtick just this once and try to offer a "poetry report"... First, Sean Killian read. Intense rhapsodic work (still not in print!) that only at the rarest moments lets the listener off the hook. Someone in the audience complimentarily likened the work to Rilke....but I thought it was more like Beckett and Ashbery (not the suburban "short poem" Ashbery) Especially effective were the long prose poems, whose subtle wit and swift fade-ins and fade-outs addressed as a METAPHYSICAL problem, the systematic incentives AGAINST human (especially male-female) connection in the hyper-ontological world of NYC and/or "late capitalism." Ed Foster read work that, in terms of touchstones or "markers", was somewhat reminiscent of Duncan (especially in classical references and homoerotically charged) and/or Olson(his use of non-western cultures, and "special views" of history). FOster's work seems to have undergone profound changes since the last time I saw him read (1993). The more "aesthetic" quality of his earlier work has taken a backseat to a more prophetic/visionary tone--especially evident in his oracular reading style. After a break, Erica Hunt read from her MS of her second book due out any second from KELSEY ST. PRESS. I had never before seen Ms. Hunt read before and strongly encourage all of you to do so at the first opportunity. This work is majr, though in different ways than Killian. In the first place, her work had a "deceptively light" quality about it. But in the midst of the humourous, casual, everyday BELIEVABLE PERSONA that emanated from her work and radiated in performace was the kind of fast, dense sociopolitical turns that also characterize, say, Bob Perelman and Carla Harryman at their best. Hunt is definitely onto a synthesis quite unique, however, of more "language" based writing with a more NY School lyricism... The three readers, coming from vastly different spaces, complemented each other. All were very powerful. Faith in poetry restored for the time being, etc. My little characterizations do them an injustice.... cs ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:37:39 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Kellog's article and reification In-Reply-To: Now that recent flurries seem to have abated somewhat I'd like to revive this topic/query which may have been missed. David, I came across this quote which seems pertinent to the problem: "[Poetry] does appear at present, despite various modifications in the mode of presenting it in public, to be static, death-laden, just as it is so often death-referenced" - Allen Grossman in _The Sighted Singer_ > I have received (thank, Davids) and begun exploring David Kellog's > "Desire..." article he recently passed out. While reading I was > puzzled and saddened by his comments on desire's apparent growing > reification as a noun. My bias as a psychologist and a poet is for > process. I see this as possibly a reflection of our current captivity > in advertising imagery, sound bites, and conservative rigidity: > "...the overwhelming preference more recent poets have for _desire_ > in its noun form....poets gravitate toward the potential of the word > as a thing...[its] gestural, deictic quality increases its appeal for > recent poets who negotiate the Scylla of discourse and the Charybdis > of subjectivity. (414)." > > I think it was my sense of cultural rigidification that recently > led me to initiate a "verbalized noun" renga (collaborative poem - > with help from fellow fellow renga qaballists): > > Sam friscoed his living space > she has plans to cattle his life savings > for a formering singe to heart my laptop > I could magazine it if you'd creche me > don't apple with me or i'll weeping willow you > > until you profound it, you coffee it up > and wetting don't caulk in the whispered > to-be-jointed night, don't phone me > laughter it fretly, soap a mariner > > who perimeters the sextant or sextants the > apse he milky ways on the shore on the shore > > > tom > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 10:25:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: FW: Re: charming naivete, etc. interesting abt. shakespeare, his lifestory, not his oeuvre, constitute his naive charm...i'm one of those folks who thought shakespeare was a pseudonym for some lord or other, so i never marveled at the self-taughtness of him...but then, genet really was genet, and he's another, i'd never call him charmingly naive, but he's certainly an autodidact genius.--maria d ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 10:24:44 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Leddy Subject: Frank O'Hara and Ghost Books Hello, list. (I'm new.) Concerning ghost books, as discussed in the most recent log-- I've seen a number of references to a book of Frank O'Hara's letters, which has never appeared. (Explanation?) Don Allen's Editor's Note to O'Hara's Collected Poems mentions a forthcoming volume of collaborations and translations. Exciting news, at least for a few seconds, before I realized (or re-realized) that of course I was reading (in the U Cal P paperback) the note that introduced the book in 1971. A ghost of a ghost. Michael Leddy / Charleston, IL ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 11:18:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jeffrey W. Timmons" Subject: Re: Adelaide Crapsey In-Reply-To: <01I2OR29CMDEHTUNS9@cnsvax.albany.edu> On Sat, 23 Mar 1996, Chris Stroffolino wrote: > yes, aldon, kilmer is a rest stop > and whitman is a bridge... > a toll bridge... > whitman is also a jail, and a mall I believe. . . . jeffrey timmons ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 11:53:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Messerli Subject: New Sun & Moon Press titles Sun & Moon Press announces the publication of three new titles: SELECTED DECLARATIONS OF DEPENDENCE, by Harry Marthes Sun & Moon Classics: 128, 196 pages, $10.95 (paper) First published in 1977, SELECTED DECLARATIONS has, like all the books of Harry Mathews, grown in reputation over the years of its unavailability. Sun & Moon Press now returns this remarkable text--in which Mathews (beginning with a set of 46 familiar proverbs) uses and absuses proverbs to create a new set of "perverbs"--to press. Illustrated by Alex Katz ----------------------- BEGINNER, by Erik Ehn ATL-American Theter in Literature Program 94 pages, $9.95 (paper) A wonderful and witty new play of four short dialogues by San Francisco playright Erik Ehn, connected with what has come to be called the "Language" theater (which includes writers such as Mac Wellman, Len Jenkin, Jeff Jones, Suzan-Lori Parks and others). -------------------------- THE RETURNS, by Dennis Barone New American Fiction Series 36, 96 pages, $10.95 (paper) An officer encounters a hapless Nell with her beaten son on a cliff just before he attacks a nameless army; in a city where all houses are painted blue, a record keeper tracks filter replacements and filtermen; in the midst of Thanksgiving dinner a boy suddenly encounters a pilot of an x-15 rocket and a salesman, who seem to sympathize with one another. In these strange and yet seemingly familiar tales the past and its language is grafted onto the present world, with a language that has fallen into near meaninglessness. -------------------------- Folks on the Poetics List can order (for one month) any of these three books for a 10% discount. Order through our website: www.sunmoon.com or through E-mail: djmess@sunmoon.com. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 15:11:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "John E. Matthias" Subject: Winters & Stanford Maria Damon: I didn't personally have a lot of trouble with Winters, but I only took the literature courses, not the writing courses. It was clear he wouldn't have liked my poetry and I never showed him any. I learned from his enthusiasms and discounted his prejudices. I can imagine that by the early '80s many of you saw his legacy as oppressive, although Donald Davie certainly wouldn't have given you that impression if he was still there. Was he? And how many people studied with Ken Fields? He was the poet of my generation who stayed on at Stanford. The others were Bob Hass, James McMichael, John Peck, and Robert Pinsky. In 1979 Carcanet Press published (in England) an anthology called _Five American Poets_ that included work by Hass, McMichael, Peck, Pinsky, & myself. In some ways it produced the impression among British reviewers that we were, or at any rate had been, Wintersians of some kind--laughable in my own case, and a distortion even in the cases of Pinsky and the early Peck. We've gone in five very different directions. John Peck, by the way, ought in particular to be of interest to readers on this list. I wonder how many know his work, especially his recent work. He's now back in this country after a decade and more in Europe. He practices as a Jungian analyst in Vermont. I can list books if anyone needs to know titles. I think Peck is one of the best poets we have. It's coincidental that Jeremy Hooker is about to publish an essay called something like "Five American Poets after Fifteen Years" in _PN Review_ in England. Anyway, back to your question. The best answer is perhaps to quote section XX, "Peroration, Concerning Genius," from Robert Pinsky's "Essay on Psychiatrists" (from _Sadness and Happiness_). The "old man" in the poem is Winters. As to my own concerns, it seems odd, given The ideas many of us have about art, That so many writers, makers of films, Artists, all suitors of excellence and their own Genius, should consult psychiatrists, willing To risk that the doctor in curing The sickness should smooth away the cicatrice Of genius, too. But it is all bosh, the false Link between genius and sickness, Except perhaps as they were linked By the Old Man, addressing his class On the first day: "I know why you are here. You are here to laugh. You have heard of a crazy Old man who believes that Robert Bridges Was a good poet; who believes that Faulke Greville was a great poet, greater than Philip Sidney; who believes that Shakespeare's Sonnets Are not all that they are cracked up to be. . . Well, I will tell you something: I will tell you What this course is about. Sometime in the middle Of the Eighteenth Century, along with the rise Of capitalism and scientific method, the logical Foundations of Western thought decayed and fell apart. When they fell apart, poets were left With emotions and experience, and with no way To examine them. At this time, poets and men Of genius began to go mad. Gray went mad. Collins Went mad. Kit Smart was mad. William Blake surely Was a madman. Coleridge was a drug addict, with severe Depression. My friend Hart Crane died mad. My friend Ezra Pound is mad. But you will not go mad; you will grow up To become happy, sentimental old college professors, Because they were men of genius, and you Art not; and the ideas which were vital To them are mere amusements to you. I will not Go mad, because I have understood those ideas. . . ." He drank wine and smoked his pipe more than he should; In the end his doctors in order to prolong life Were forced to cut away most of his tongue. That was their business. As far as he was concerned Suffering was life's penalty; wisdom armed one Against madness; speech was temporary; poetry was truth. * * * That's the parody version, of course, but it comes pretty close. John Matthias ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 09:43:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: Re: Visual Poetry >If you want information about the Australian concrete poetry scene, contact >TT.O. (greek symbols Pi and Omicron) and thalia c/o >Collective Effort Press >P.O. Box 2430V GPO Melbourne, Australia > >They printed an anthology of works by TT.O. (say Pi O), thalia, ACR, Jas >Duke, and loads of others who continue today. Also, they can hook you up >with the Italian scene, namely a dictionary of women's language using >concrete poetry. >Tell them you got the info from Laura Hope-Gill; give 'em my best. > >Laura Hope-Gill c/o GHawkins There was a CD tribute to Jas Duke in an issue of Going Down Swinging a year or so back. Also the latest issue of Southerly has a collection of articles on pi0. Australian Writing On Line will shortly be making GDS available through its Virtual Bookshop (http://www.ozemail.com.au/~awol/). If can't wait email AWOL at awol@ozemail.com.au and they can give you more details. __________________________________ Mark Roberts Student Systems Project Officer Information Systems University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia M.Roberts@isu.usyd.edu.au PH:(02)351 5066 FAX:(02)351 5081 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 18:05:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Winters & Stanford thanks for the poem, John Matthias: it resonates eerily with a book i've been reading on otto weininger and turn of the century interest in "madness" and "creativity," --creepy stuff, esp. for Jewish folks. Donald Davie had just retired. Ken Fields was still teaching, i took two courses from him one semester and he made my life miserable during that period; he was a troubled person who notoriously indulged in punitive grading to a degree so flagrant that it could only be called delusional. (he wasn't as hard on me as he was on some others, perhaps because i tried to go to his office hours to talk to him about our "conflict" --). However, my problems with him got me into "recovery" I was having dreadful nightmares) so I actually owe him some debt of gratitude. hey, maybe i'll write and tell him so...bests, maria d ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 18:05:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Announcing _Broken English_ by Dodie Bellamy & Bob Harrison looks terrific, gotta pick this one up --congrats, dodie-kins! --md ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 19:46:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Adelaide Crapsey a toll bridge, a jail, a mall, a candy sampler and the republican governor of New Jersey USA.... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 16:46:44 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: Announcing _Broken English_ by Dodie Bellamy & Bob Harrison >looks terrific, gotta pick this one up --congrats, dodie-kins! --md Maria, Here's a kiss for you. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 08:15:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: Kellog's article and reification In-Reply-To: On Sat, 23 Mar 1996, Thomas Bell wrote: > Now that recent flurries seem to have abated somewhat I'd like > to revive this topic/query which may have been missed. > David, > I came across this quote which seems pertinent to the > problem: > "[Poetry] does appear at present, despite various modifications > in the mode of presenting it in public, to be static, death-laden, > just as it is so often death-referenced" - Allen Grossman in > _The Sighted Singer_ > I don't think I want to go down this road. The problem with pronouncements like this is their tendency toward universalism. I have no wish to go back to the "death of poetry" debate (which seems happily to have died down since the late eighties) where people accused back and forth: Poetry's dead/is not/is so/is not! Saying something like this is rather easy; the heart part is figuring out what's actaully happening *here* or *there* or *there*. I'm not as familiar with Grossman's work as I should be. What's the context of his saying this? I'm curious because he seems obviously (in Summa Lyrica) one of the most rigorous thinkers about poetry in our time. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 684-6277 There is some excitement in one corner, but most of the ghosts are merely shaking their heads. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 08:48:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Ellis McAdams" Subject: Re: Peltier In-Reply-To: <199603230502.AAA24209@graf.cc.emory.edu> eryque-- You asked about the Peltier case. The best 2 sources I know of are Peter Matthiessen's In the Spirit of Crazy Horse, a long and detailed account of what is an extremely complex legal case, and Michael Apted's film, Incident at Oglala. Briefly, two FBI agents were shot in 1975 near Wounded Knee. Three members of AIM were indicted: Bob Robideau and Dino Butler were acquited; Peltier fled to Canada, was extradited, and stood trial separately. He was convicted and has now been in prison for (I think) 20 years. Both Mattheissen and Apted make a good case for the FBI, furious at the aquitals of Butler & Robideau, manufacturing evidence and coercing witnesses in order to convict Peltier. From everything I've read, there seems no evidence that Peltier had anything to do with the deaths of the agents. The second issue the case raises is more complicated. Because of the "quasi-sovereign" status of Indian nations, and because of the climate of violence on the res. at that time--there had been shootouts and murders of Indian people--one wonders what on earth two agents in plain clothes, who apparently did not identify themselves--were doing there in the first place. Thus, the question is: Were these "murders" or casualties in a war between two sovereign powers? As I've said, it's an extremely complicated case, and I'm certainly no expert. Matthiessen's book is also interesting because of its publishing history. Libel cases brought by public officials kept it out of print for 8 years. J. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 09:01:19 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: New Sun & Moon Press titles Dear Douglas, I'd love to order the Mathews--do you prefer to deal with e-people via credit card or check? Regards, Gwyn McVay, a big Sun &Moon fan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:42:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Messerli Subject: Re: New Sun & Moon Press titles Dear Gwyn, You can either order through my website or through E-Mail, which will probably be easier for you. But we do't yet accept credit cards, so I'll just bill you and you can send us a check. Our website is www.sunmoon.com. =============== At 09:01 AM 3/25/96 +0000, you wrote: >Dear Douglas, > >I'd love to order the Mathews--do you prefer to deal with e-people via >credit card or check? > >Regards, > >Gwyn McVay, a big Sun &Moon fan > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 14:39:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: nea creative writing fellowships As penance for the tone of my last post about the creative writing fellowships in poetry awarded by the NEA for FY96, I now post the list of recipients: Robert Benson, Onenonta NY Pamela Bernard, Duxbury MA Linda Bierds, Bainbridge Island WA Sharon Bryan, Salt Lake City UT Stuart Dischel, Las Cruces NM Nancy Eimers, Kalamazoo MI Jeffrey Greene, Paris FRANCE Barbara Hamby, Tallahassee FL Carol Henrie, Hayward CA Karl Kirchwey, New York NY Stephen Knauth, Charlotte NC John Koethe, Milwaukee WI Joan Larkin, Shelburne Falls MA Charles F. Martin, Brooklyn NY William Olsen, Kalamazoo MI Donald Platt, Carrollton GA Laurie Sheck, Princeton NJ Enid Shomer, Gainesville FL Sheryl Saint Germain, Galesburg IL Daniel E. Tobin, Racine WI Dean Young, Bloomington IN Panelists were: Lucille Clifton, Columbia MD Poet, educator Debora Greger, Gainesville FL Poet, educator Edward Hirsch, Houston TX Poet, editor, educator Philip Levine, Fresno CA Poet, educator Thylias Moss, Ann Arbor MI Poet, writer, educator Steve Orlen, Tucson AZ Poet, educator Sherod Santos, Columbia MO Poet, educator Margo Viscusi, New York NY Layperson Ellen Bryant Voigt, Cabot VT Poet, educator You can contact the NEA (sort of; they've been cut severely and may not have enough people to get straight to your call, but though they _can't_ talk to you about your application they can send you application guidelines for creative writing and translation fellowships in poetry (including verse drama) now. Gigi Bradford NEA Nancy Hanks Center 1100 Pennsylvania Ave NW Washington DC 20506 202.682.5400 ________ That said, I'd like to suggest that 'quertzblatz' poets _not_ go the record store route of filing themselves under 'alternative' or shriek of pain 'commercial alternative.' Thanks. Jordan Davis ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 15:32:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: Peltier thanks for the info, j. i'm always amazed at our powers that be, but i don't know why, it's been the same old same old for two hundred years. i shouldn't be amazed anymore. incredulous, yes, but i should expect this sort of activity. eryque ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 15:44:34 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ward Tietz <100723.3166@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Visual Poetry On March 22, Peter Jaeger wrote: "Can anyone contribute to a list of addresses (snail or email) for magazines that currently & primarily publish visual poetry, in Canada, States, anywhere?" Here are some places I know of, although "primarily publish visual poetry" does not apply for all of them. (I've also listed some presses.) USA Generator John Byrum 3203 W. 14th St., Apt. 13 Cleveland, OH 44109 Score Crag Hill 1015 NW Clifford St. Pullman, WA 99163 O.ars Don Wellman 21 Rockland Rd Weare, NH 03281 Lightworks Charlton Burch P.O. Box 1202 Birmingham, MI 48012 Canada Rampike Karl Jirgens 95 Rivercrest Rd. Toronto, Ontario M6S 4H7 CURVD H&Z jw curry 1357 Lansdowne Ave Toronto, Ontario. M6H 3Z9 Austria Edition Neue Texte Heimrad Baecker In der Stockwiesen 13 A-4040 Linz Press, publishes mostly concrete poetry (anthologies and some books). Germany Christian Scholz Gertraud Scholz Verlag Rothenberg, Weinbergstr. 11 D-8501 Obermichelbach Press, publishes books and CDs of sound poetry. Australia Pete Spence 4/27 Alma Grove St. Kilda 3182 Victoria, Australia Curates visual poetry mail art show. Last year's show was in various public libraries. Hungary Laszlo L. Simon Mezo u. 12 H-2484 Agard e-mail: sxs@ludens.elte.hu Curated an international visual poetry exhibition in '95, is about to start an electronic magazine. Their URL is http://ludens.elte.hu/~LIFT/ France Doc(k)s Philippe Castellin 20 rue Bonaparte F-20 000 Ajaccio Ward Tietz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:22:43 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: FW: Re: Peltier Eryque Gleason wrote: >thanks for the info, j. > >i'm always amazed at our powers that be, but i don't know why, it's been >the same old same old for two hundred years. i shouldn't be amazed >anymore. incredulous, yes, but i should expect this sort of activity. > >eryque eryque --- may i respectfully add two zeros to that 200? later in the good fight --- chris ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.25.96 1:22:43 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wuorinen a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 14:34:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Davidson Subject: Steve Benson Does anybody out there know where I can find a tape of Steve Benson performing "Echo" (which appears in BLINDSPOTS)? I know he did a version of it in Washington at a performance organized by Kirby Malone, but I can't locate Kirby (if you're out there, KM, please backchannel me). Perhaps others can help me locate this or other performances. Thanks in advance. Michael Davidson Michael Davidson ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 18:20:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: The Bay scene in 1950s i haven't heard any rexroth tapes from that show, but i believe he taped some of them (very early machine for doing that) from his home. linda hamalian would/should know about that, i guess. spicer's novel is pretty good on that side of rexroth's career, the author/authoritarian. speaking of spicer, he took over parkinson's classes after the shooting. the gunman, by the way, wrote about what he'd done and why, and if i remember correctly, he shot parkinson and the student for no other reason than that they were there; the intended victim was out of the building at the time. --- anyway, it would be interesting to track mcintyre down; considering how many people still reach rilke and the symbolists through his words, i should think it would be important to know something about his own work, and sensibility. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 01:17:46 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Blair Seagram Subject: sublet/NYC/CPW Anyone looking to sublet an apt. in NYC? Available: April thru May + Location: off Central Park West (1 bed room with a view) Contact: Jacklyn Johnson (212) 877-1214 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 01:11:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: FW: Re: Peltier >may i respectfully add two zeros to that 200? chris, although i was referring to our present gov't. (which i don't think was that bad for the first few years of it's existence), you're more than welcome to jump on the bash-wagon. anyone else care for a shot? i'm selling them cheap, this week only, only for poetics subscribers (everyone else pays twice what you guyzies will). like sun&moon (i almost abbreviated that s&m, then thought better of it...) did the settlers buy any land besides manhattan? and did they really buy that? eryque ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 00:48:57 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Lowenthal" Subject: Electronic Poetry Review (fwd) Hello all. I have been lurking for a while now---this is my first time out and it's info only. I thought some of you might be interested in this new magazine. It represents incredibly strange and wonderful juxtapositions, I think, in terms of poetics, personality, etc. Katherine Swiggart, one of the editors, would love to hear from you re: submission guidelines etc., etc.. Jessica Lowenthal _________________________________________________________________________ In April, 1996, the first issue of _Electronic Poetry Review_ will be available on the internet. The Spring issue will feature an interview with Jane Miller by Jorie Graham, and poetry by Etel Adnan, Rae Armantrout, Marvin Bell, Frank Bidart, David Bromige, Mark Doty, James Galvin, C.S. Giscombe, Jorie Graham, Lyn Hejinian, Brenda Hillman, Fanny Howe, Timothy Liu, Bob Perelman, Bin Ramke, Tim Seibles, Spencer Selby, James Tate, Mark Strand (and others). EPR will be published three times a year, and each issue will become part of a developing on-line archive, available--at no subscription cost--to an international community of writers, teachers and readers of poetry. The editors aim to publish the best of both experimental poetry and more traditionally formal poetry, as well as interviews, essays on poetics, and book reviews. _Electronic Poetry Review_ welcomes submissions of poetry, essays or reviews from writers in or outside of the United States. Requests for submision guidelines, and all other inquiries, should be sent to the editors at EPR@www.poetry.org or, before May 15, to swiggart@blue.weeg.uiowa Editors: Katherine Swiggart and Douglas Powell Production editor: Davi Ottenheimer Board of advisors and contributing editors: Marvin Bell, Jorie Graham, David Hamilton, Lyn Hejinian, Bob Perelman, Tom Sleigh ___________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 23:05:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Kellog's article and reification In-Reply-To: David, The issue for me here is whether or not poetry is _static_ (reified, or NOUN vs. verb). The answer for me as I think it is for you is NO. I posted the quote as another example of a tendency you alluded to in your article. I think the quote suggests the "tendency to noun" may have older and more traditional roots as Grossman sees "poetry as immensely conservative" Sorry for the confusion, I have not completely digested the book as a whole, but the operative word for me in the quote is _static_. The death referenced to is _death_, not the death of poetry, but I can see how it can be interpreted the other way. The quote is taken from a conversation between Grossman and a younger poet and the specific context is film vs. poetry. The broader context is poetry as reifying "person" or validating "self". tom > On Sat, 23 Mar 1996, Thomas Bell wrote: > > "[Poetry] does appear at present, despite various modifications > > in the mode of presenting it in public, to be static, death-laden, > > just as it is so often death-referenced" - Allen Grossman in > > _The Sighted Singer_ > > > > I don't think I want to go down this road. > > The problem with pronouncements like this is their tendency toward > universalism. I have no wish to go back to the "death of poetry" debate > (which seems happily to have died down since the late eighties) where > people accused back and forth: Poetry's dead/is not/is so/is not! Saying > something like this is rather easy; the heart part is figuring out what's > actaully happening *here* or *there* or *there*. > > I'm not as familiar with Grossman's work as I should be. What's the > context of his saying this? I'm curious because he seems obviously (in > Summa Lyrica) one of the most rigorous thinkers about poetry in our > time. > > Cheers, > David ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 03:23:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: The Bay scene in 1950s The shooter did indeed write and publish a book, a hardback vanity press affair (I remember it having a pink cover). Twenty years ago, you could see this guy giving copies of it away for free on BART. Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 04:24:11 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: robinson jeffers/west coast scene the first american poet i got truly obsessed w/ was robinson jeffers --- i found a copy of his book "Such Counsels You Gave To Me" at a friend's house when i was 14 or so --- ended up reading everything. his "Inhumanism" was strangely comforting to me when i was a kid i haven't read him in years --- the last time i tried, when the five-volume collected poems began to appear, i stood in moe's books and couldn't get very far --- i've got a soft spot for him, though ron and others --- did his postwar reputation plummet as rapidly out here on the west coast as it did elsewhere? and how did he fit into the postwar scene out here? what's the general consensus on him nowadays? is there in fact any interest in his work at all? later --- chris ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.26.96 4:24:11 am q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wuorinen a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 10:24:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: Kellog's article and reification In-Reply-To: Tom, Righto, of course. I was talking right past you again. Re: static poetry, I have a question for Charles Bernstein. In Chicago in December you read a hilarious point-by-point inversion of Charles Olson's PROJECTIVE VERSE. Is this out somewhere? I would like to reference it. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 684-6277 There is some excitement in one corner, but most of the ghosts are merely shaking their heads. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 10:43:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: robinson jeffers/west coast scene jeffers' primary connection to later west coast work was william everson, whose early poems are deeply jeffers. after that, the line gets very thin although i believe you can find it mixed in with early beat writing. but rexroth didn't like him, despite everson's enthusiasm, and that certainly didn't help things. jeffers is certainly of his time, and i don't much care for his long works, but there are a number of short pieces that still seem very strong--unlike the work of other whitman- based poets, sandburg for instance. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 11:00:38 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "D. LaBeau" Subject: Announcing/Call for Submissions EPR Forwarded from Katherine Swiggart: In April, 1996, the 1st issue of _Electronic Poetry Review_ will be available on the internet. The Spring issue will feature an interview with Jane Miller by Jorie Graham, & poetry by Etel Adnan, Rae Armantrout, Marvin Bell, Frank Bidart, David Bromige, Mark Doty, James Galvin, C.S. Giscombe, Jorie Graham, Lyn Hejinian, Brenda Hillman, Fanny Howe, Timothy Liu, Bob Perelman, Bin Ramke, Tim Seibles, Spencer Selby, Mark Strand, James Tate (& others.) EPR will be published three times a year, & each issue will become part of a developing on-line archive, available--at no subscription cost--to an international community of writers, teachers, & readers of poetry. The editors aim to publish the best of both experimental poetry & more traditionally formal poetry, as well as interviews, essays on poetics, & book reviews. _Electronic Poetry Review_ welcomes submissions of poetry, essays or reviews from writers in or outside of the United States. Requests for submission, & all other inquiries, should be sent to the editors at EPR@www.poetry.org or, before May 15, to swiggart@blue.weeg.uiowa Editiors: Katherine Swiggart & Douglas Powell Production editor: Davi Ottenheimer Board of advisors & contributing editors: Marvin Bell, Jorie Graham, David Hamilton, Lyn Hejinian, Bob Perelman, Tom Sleigh ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 12:03:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: query abt stein/toklas hey guyzies: does anyone on this list know if Gertrude and Alice kept any semblance of Jewish dietary laws? i don't own a copy of the cookbook, but if any of you does, cd you take a quick glance and let me know if there are, for instance, any pork or shellfish recipes, and if there are any recipes that combine dairy products with meat (excluding fish) products? i'd be grateful, since i'm trying to find concrete, identifiable clues about how they defined their own Jewishness. Stein sez various things throughout her career; one piece i;m looking at is "reverie of the zionist," where she claims Judaism must be considered a religion, not a race or nationality, cuz she doesn't want to move to Zion, but at the same time, considers her position an "expression of Shem" --ie legitimately Jewish. thanks--md ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 09:08:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Davidson Subject: Re: The Bay scene in 1950s Very interesting to hear about Spicer's role following the shooting. We should remember that, although the shooter may have claimed disinterest in his target, Parkinson at that time was a target for all sorts of right wing animosity, due to his opposition to the Vietnam War and other political activities. So if the shooter were looking for a warm (eg. pinkish) target TP would be in the line of fire. Parkinson himself represented the shooting as a political act. md At 06:20 PM 3/25/96 -0500, you wrote: >i haven't heard any rexroth tapes from that show, but i believe he taped >some of them (very early machine for doing that) from his home. linda >hamalian would/should know about that, i guess. spicer's novel is pretty >good on that side of rexroth's career, the author/authoritarian. speaking >of spicer, he took over parkinson's classes after the shooting. the >gunman, by the way, wrote about what he'd done and why, and if i remember >correctly, he shot parkinson and the student for no other reason than >that they were there; the intended victim was out of the building at >the time. --- > anyway, it would be interesting to track mcintyre down; >considering how many people still reach rilke and the symbolists >through his words, i should think it would be important to know >something about his own work, and sensibility. > > Michael Davidson ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 13:24:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jena Osman Subject: Re: Kellog's article and reification In-Reply-To: from "David Kellogg" at Mar 26, 96 10:24:51 am > > Re: static poetry, I have a question for Charles Bernstein. In Chicago in > December you read a hilarious point-by-point inversion of Charles Olson's > PROJECTIVE VERSE. Is this out somewhere? I would like to reference it. > > Cheers, > David This piece will be printed in the next issue of _Chain_ (special topic: hybrid genres/mixed media), which will be out sometime in May. Jena Osman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 08:10:15 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: nea creative writing fellowships 'Quertzblatz' here you go. Drop your ' ' and be part of the language. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 16:40:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: ye poetry city reading Hear ye! hear ye! All ye poets in ye big city for ye talks POETRY CITY READING THURSDAY MARCH 28 Rod Smith (Rod Smith!), author of _Ye Boy Poems_ and _In Memory of Ye Theories_, and Loss Glazier (Loss Pequeno Glazier!), author of _Ye Parts_, will be reading at POETRY CITY on Thursday, March 28, 6:30 p.m. It's free. We'll have wine. POETRY CITY is a wholly-owned (but free-standing and subversive) subsidiary of Teachers & Writers Collaborative, 5 Union Square West, NY NY 10003. ______ Now as for desire, did anybody really ever "desire" anybody else? how many men on when fear struck out. What's wrong with a little personification. I beg your pardon. What's wrong with the category of desire. It's objectless. Right. Pointless? Pointilist? Easter is a round the. What do you want to happen. To save string. To save a nation. F Troop Penelope had no hair. The thrill is back in the basement. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 18:51:18 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AARON SHURIN Subject: O'Hara's ghost In-Reply-To: <01I2SI4LCR609EG1UU@VAXC.STEVENS-TECH.EDU> I talked to Don Allen today about the aforementioned "ghost" book of O'Hara's letters. Said he'd been working on it with O's sister (?Maureen?), but they weren't able, back then, to find a publisher. Then she was working on another version with Rod Padgett, but they stopped working together. According to Don, he offered to Maureen to publish a selected letters, but she didn't want that. In any case, the letters hadn't really been edited, ie annotated. Don is, though, preparing a new edition of O'Hara's POEMS RETRIEVED, and of course UC has issued in paperback the Collected. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 22:26:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jms Subject: Re: query abt stein/toklas Entries in ABT Cookbook Pork Rilettes Roast Pork Normandy Veal and Pork Meat Loaf Lots of shellfish also. Save to say no to semblance of Jewish dietary laws. --Juliana >hey guyzies: >does anyone on this list know if Gertrude and Alice kept any semblance of >Jewish dietary laws? i don't own a copy of the cookbook, but if any of you >does, cd you take a quick glance and let me know if there are, for instance, >any pork or shellfish recipes, and if there are any recipes that combine >dairy products with meat (excluding fish) products? i'd be grateful, since >i'm trying to find concrete, identifiable clues about how they defined their >own Jewishness. Stein sez various things throughout her career; one piece >i;m looking at is "reverie of the zionist," where she claims Judaism must be >considered a religion, not a race or nationality, cuz she doesn't want to >move to Zion, but at the same time, considers her position an "expression of >Shem" --ie legitimately Jewish. >thanks--md > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 20:00:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Re: Visual Poetry >>If you want information about the Australian concrete poetry scene, contact >>TT.O. (greek symbols Pi and Omicron) and thalia c/o >>Collective Effort Press >>P.O. Box 2430V GPO Melbourne, Australia >> >>They printed an anthology of works by TT.O. (say Pi O), thalia, ACR, Jas >>Duke, and loads of others who continue today. Also, they can hook you up >>with the Italian scene, namely a dictionary of women's language using >>concrete poetry. >>Tell them you got the info from Laura Hope-Gill; give 'em my best. >> >>Laura Hope-Gill c/o GHawkins > > >There was a CD tribute to Jas Duke in an issue of Going Down Swinging a >year or so back. Also the latest issue of Southerly has a collection of >articles on pi0. Australian Writing On Line will shortly be making GDS >available through its Virtual Bookshop (http://www.ozemail.com.au/~awol/). >If can't wait email AWOL at awol@ozemail.com.au and they can give you more >details. > > > > >__________________________________ >Mark Roberts >Student Systems Project Officer >Information Systems >University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia >M.Roberts@isu.usyd.edu.au >PH:(02)351 5066 >FAX:(02)351 5081 Dear Mark, Thanks for the AWOL e-address as well as the lead to the TT.O. articles in Southerly. Could you tell me Southerly's e-address as I'd love to get a copy. I'm glad to learn of GDS going electronic via AWOL's electronic bookshop. It's a great magazine-- is Myron Lysenko still heading it up? Is Jas being read in Australia outside of the GDS subscribers? WAR and PEACE is an excellent book of poems, as with all poems published by the Collective Effort Press. I'm glad the CD project worked-- it was a first, wasn't it-- after the 45 included with Off the Record. Couldn't have honored a greater voice, I think. That voice. Thanks again. Laura Hope-Gill laurahopegill@halcyon.com c/o ghawkins@halcyon.com (shared list to avoid double sending) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 20:12:44 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: SPT newsletter at EPC The address of the SPT newsletter will change a bit in the future, but right now you can access it at the Electronic Poetry Center at: http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/ezines/spt/sptS96_toc.html Thanks to John Keeling for the wonderful work he did in creating this electronic version. Dodie Bellamy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 23:21:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Introjective Verse (reply to David Kellog) In-Reply-To: In reply to David Kellogg -- > Re: static poetry, I have a question for Charles Bernstein. In Chicago in > December you read a hilarious point-by-point inversion of Charles Olson's > PROJECTIVE VERSE. Is this out somewhere? I would like to reference it. "Introjective Verse" will be in the immediately forthcoming issue of CHAIN, ed. Juliana Spahr and Jena Osman: Chain / 3. I wrote this over the summer in response to a request by Olivier Cadiot and Pierre Alferi to do something on "Projective Verse" for a "speed" issue of their periodical incroyable _Revue de litterature generale_ and it will be, I think, in the 2d number of the review, in a translation divided into hexameters._ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 19:15:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: The Bay scene in 1950s Michael, "Parkinson at that time was a target for all sorts of right wing animosity, due to his opposition to the Vietnam War and other political activities" Your timing is off. The Gulf of Tonkin incident, if it had actually happened, was the 4th of August, 1964, something like 8 years AFTER the shooting (but one day before I became eligible for the draft). Still, Parkinson, who was a cantankerous fellow not given much to collective action, had long been an active supporter of professors like Tolman, who'd lost his job (and career) over his refusal to sign the loyalty oath. This was a 50s McCarthy backlash shooting, basically. [I recall there being a lot of controversy right here in Philadelphia, where I happened to be at the time, at somebody carrying a "Don't Laos Me Up" sign on a Hiroshima Day march at City Hall in 1964 -- there was no antiwar movement to speak of then, even as US involvement had been stepping up for some time. Madame Nhu spoke at the Greek Theater in 63 or 64 with virtually no protest. I met Dean Rusk and Adlai Stevenson who were in town for that occasion--I was the "lawn boy" for Rusk's sister in law on Marin Ave in Berkeley--and they had virtually no security with them. Unthinkable just two years later.] So Parkinson was shot before. Before the HUAC demonstrations of 1959 -- the first "student riot" of the post WW2 generation -- in San Francisco City Hall, before Tracy Simms and the Auto Row sit-ins on Van Ness Avenue (around 1962), and before the "shop-ins" at Luckys on Telegraph Ave in (across from what is now Cody's) or the CORE picketing of Spengers in Berkeley and the restaurants around Jack London Square (which led to the crackdown on "campus organizing" that led by way of response to Jack Weinberg getting arrested for the simple act of setting up a card table and being held in the police car in Sproul Plaza for 36 hours as students refused to let the cops take him downtown, the first "event" of the Free Speech Movement (and that was still a year ahead of the first Vietnam Day Teach-in). Here's a question: Were Spicer, Duncan, Parkinson, Blaser, Rexroth or any of the others around at the time involved in the 3 or 4 day general strike that occurred in Oakland in 1949, the last such to be truly attempted (and successful to the degree that people did go out) in the US? This was the same year that KPFA was founded (Rexroth was active in that and Spicer had a folk music program for a little while). Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 22:41:44 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: Sound Poetry ensemble live at Austin Festival (More shameless self-promotion; the group includes several members of this list.) "Question Authority, The", Dallas's almost all-star sound poetry ensemble, will make its Austin debut at the Fourth Annual Austin International Poetry Festival. The ensemble will perform at Book People at 6th and Lamar on Saturday, March 30 at 5:30 PM. "Question Authority, The" is a performance collective, exploring the borders between poetry and music and between composition and improvisation. The ensemble includes former Austinites Joseph Zitt and Ric Speed, and Fran Carris, Tim Cloward, Debi Tannenbaum, and Tim Wood. This performance focuses on original work by ensemble members and includes the group's arrangement of a work by poet Allen Ginsberg. The Festival's opening ceremony, on Friday at 4:30 PM at MexicArte at 5th and Congress, features the premiere of "Inaugural" by Joseph Zitt, performed in a version for two tubas, string bass, and three speakers, by Austin's ensemble Batrachomyomachia and special guests. The composition recombines presidential speeches and American folk tunes in unpredictable ways. Zitt will also lead a workshop on sound poetry on Friday at 3 PM at Book People. Fran Carris and Tim Wood, editor and publisher of the Dallas arts monthly the Word, will create an the official festival Video Poem at the Electric Lounge that Saturday afternoon at 2 PM, preceded by their Video Poetry workshop at 5 PM on Friday. They will also be coordinating the creation of an on-the-spot festival anthology Friday night at the Green Room. More information on the Festival can be found on the World Wide Web at http://www.hyperweb.com/poetry ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/Joe Zitt's Home Page\| ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 02:19:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark W Scroggins Subject: Re: query abt stein/toklas In-Reply-To: <960326120325_256364869@mail04> Maria: I don't have the cookbook either, but I thought of the Autobiography (p. 12 in the Selected Writings volume): "She did not like the stranger's looks. Who is that, said she to Alfy. I didn't bring him, said Alfy. he looks like a Jew, said Gertrude Stein, he is worse than that, says Alfy." How do you read the tone of that? And where is the "Zionist" piece you mentioned? Cheers, Mark ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 00:10:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: The Bay scene in 1950s Regarding the shooting of Thomas Parkinson-I know a little bit! Ed Foster is almost correct, but wrong to suppose that the gunman had no motive beyond "he was there." In addition, Jack Spicer didn't take over Parkinson's classes but merely helped Josephine Miles and others grade papers for him while he recuperated. Michael Davidson pretty much hits the nail on the head but just places the date a little late. Ron Silliman's dating is too early. Parkinson was shot in his office, January 18, 1961. The assailant proposed to open World War III by an assault on "liberals" in this, the still highly charged aftermath of the McCarthy era. He wounded Parkinson and killed a graduate student who happened to be conferring at the professor's desk. The killer was a student obsessed with anti-Communism and indeed believed Parkinson to be a communist since he had defended in the student newspaper the students Ron alludes to who participated in the famous sit-in at San Francisco City Hall. This is the incident that opens up the documentary of a few years back, "Berkeley in the Sixties" (and isn't the Parkinson incident featured in that film too?) Parkinson, who died four years ago, recounted the story to me and Lew Ellingham as we were interviewing him, in June of 1991, for our projected biography of Spicer, with heavy emphasis on the terrible waste of the young graduate student's life. Hope this helps! -Kevin Killian ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 09:35:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: query abt stein/toklas hi mark, i read the passage you cite from the autobiography ambiguously. part of this is, i think, an example of "subaltern humor," in Renato Rosaldo's phrase --an instance of the marginalized using oneself as the butt of quasi-hostile humor (see, natch, freud on this). the zionist piece is in Painted Lace, vol 5 of the posthumously collected. anyone else got insights on this optic, i mean topic? i'm having a dickens of a time with this essay cuz there's just too much to say. maria d ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 08:52:29 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: robinson jeffers/west coast scene In the mid-70's at Stanford, at least by Al Gelpi, Jeffers was taught as one of the major 20th Century poets post-Pound/Williams, along with such as John Crowe Ransom. Whereas Zukofsky was never mentioned and, although I think Olson was mentioned, it was in passing. The way I began to read Olson out of that Stanford undergraduate context was that, after Donald Davie read a poem by Dorn on the 18th Century explorer John Ledyard ("Ledyard: The Exhaustion of Sheer Distance") in the context of a late 18th Century British poetry class (Johnson/Smart/Gray and some others), I went out and found books by Dorn which led me to Olson and much else. But if one had stuck to the syllabus in the mid-20th Century poetry classes, one would have left thinking of Jeffers as a major poet. When I left California in mid-1976 and found that others had either never heard, or barely heard, of Jeffers, I thought of him more as a major regional poet (in terms of his reputation). >jeffers' primary connection to later west coast work was william everson, >whose early poems are deeply jeffers. after that, the line gets very >thin although i believe you can find it mixed in with early beat writing. >but rexroth didn't like him, despite everson's enthusiasm, and that >certainly didn't help things. jeffers is certainly of his time, and i >don't much care for his long works, but there are a number of short >pieces that still seem very strong--unlike the work of other whitman- >based poets, sandburg for instance. > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 10:41:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: Re: query abt stein/toklas "I saw all this to prove that Judaism should be a question of religion..." [not race] "I don't want to go to Zion." GS, "Reverie" If Judaism is a question of religion, then I'm inclined to think Stein's not all that "interested" in being a Jew. Sort of in the same way that she's not all that interested in being a woman if that means having to be "religiously" involved in feminism/women's causes. In _Making of Americans_ she talks about how religious her grandfathers were, how it was religion that made them "feel important in their being" (paraphrasing, I don't have the book w/me)...that was the function of their religiousness [sic] as far as she writes, and Stein clearly didn't need it to feel important in HER being. I guess I read the passage in Autobio of ABT the same way you did, Maria, but also--it seems to me that Stein's very aware of stereotypes & in some cheeky sense believes in & promotes them...when they apply to groups she happens to be, technically, a part of, this doesn't change. But it's hard for me to see, from her writing, Stein thinking of herself much as a "woman" or a "Jew"...her chosen identities being, as far as I can tell, American, genius, and "brother singular." e ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Emily Lloyd emilyl@erols.com "I mistrust your bitch."--nietzsche ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 10:52:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: AWP Chronicle, discussions of form The AWP Chronicle this month has a number of remarkably deluded articles about the nature of poetic form, in case anyone's interested--it ties in quite nicely with some of our recent talk about the politics of poetic form. Ira Sadoff's "Modernism and Continuing Myths of Form" actually has a good, engaged reading of poems by Lyn Heijinian and John Ashbery among others, but his historical confusion seems immense. He writes: "In the past thirty years the premises behind Modernism have been widely refuted"--what he means by Modernism, apparently, is the New Criticism as forrmulated according to him to a great extent by Cleanth Brooks. Although T.S. Eliot and Wallace Stephens are mentioned, Sadoff's example of "Modernist poetic closure" is a poem by James Wright. Modernism=Poetic Closure is the underlying assumption of his article. Annie Finch's "Conspicuous Repetition and the Multiplicity of Forms" starts by saying that, until recently, she believed that "formal poetry" was "metric poetry." But in editing the anthology "A Formal Feeling Comes: POems in Form by Contemporary Women," she received many "non-metrical" poems which the writers in question nonetheless considered "formal." Finch wrestles with the oddity of this notion, and finally decides that "formal poetry" includes poems that "play to the human potential for childlike or ceremonial language; found something powerful in a poetic language that was rhetorical rather than natural; answered the desire for language to become more than the sum of its ordinary parts." She then defines formal poetry--"Formal poems are structured by the conspicious repetition of any language element"--not a bad definition, actually, although she remains quite unaware of how many types of poetry she's ignoring. Finch then lets a number of contemporary women poets speak about their own interests in form, which I won't summarize here. Frederick Turner's article "The Inner Meaning Of POetic Form" begins "It is becoming clear at this moment that the most dynamic and promising trend in poetry today is the expansive movement, or the New Formalism, as it is also known." Need I say more? I thought I would post this just in case anybody out there was thinking that there was no longer any need to argue for or promote the significance of "avant garde" work--we can argue all day about what to call it, but the fact of the matter is that highly "official" creative writing professional publications still often act as if it doesn't even exist. Mark Wallace ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 08:54:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: caveat webber Mike Magoolaghan-- your interesting looking www page (which I found through Alta Vista, an amazing search engine) has now crashed my computer twice (each time I've tried to load the page: one of those serious Windows 3.1 major GPFs that dumps you right back into cold unadorned reality). Is anyone else having this problem? or, Mike: what I ever do to you? best, Tenney ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 08:09:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Davidson Subject: Re: The Bay scene in 1950s ron...thanks for the corrections. I think TP, in interviews with me, may have encouraged such conflations of dates. On the other hand, I thought the shooting was later than this...in which case Spicer couldn't have been his TA. So when was the shooting exactly? I've lost the original post. Was it, indeed, in the 1940's? I had thought it was an incident of the 1960s. Now I'm all confused. Please clarify. (I don't know about the 1949 strike) MD At 07:15 PM 3/26/96 -0800, you wrote: >Michael, > >"Parkinson at that time was a target for all sorts of right wing >animosity, due to his opposition to the Vietnam War and other political >activities" Your timing is off. > >The Gulf of Tonkin incident, if it had actually happened, was the 4th >of August, 1964, something like 8 years AFTER the shooting (but one day >before I became eligible for the draft). Still, Parkinson, who was a >cantankerous fellow not given much to collective action, had long been >an active supporter of professors like Tolman, who'd lost his job (and >career) over his refusal to sign the loyalty oath. This was a 50s >McCarthy backlash shooting, basically. > >[I recall there being a lot of controversy right here in Philadelphia, >where I happened to be at the time, at somebody carrying a "Don't Laos >Me Up" sign on a Hiroshima Day march at City Hall in 1964 -- there was >no antiwar movement to speak of then, even as US involvement had been >stepping up for some time. Madame Nhu spoke at the Greek Theater in 63 >or 64 with virtually no protest. I met Dean Rusk and Adlai Stevenson >who were in town for that occasion--I was the "lawn boy" for Rusk's >sister in law on Marin Ave in Berkeley--and they had virtually no >security with them. Unthinkable just two years later.] > >So Parkinson was shot before. Before the HUAC demonstrations of 1959 -- >the first "student riot" of the post WW2 generation -- in San Francisco >City Hall, before Tracy Simms and the Auto Row sit-ins on Van Ness >Avenue (around 1962), and before the "shop-ins" at Luckys on Telegraph >Ave in (across from what is now Cody's) or the CORE picketing of >Spengers in Berkeley and the restaurants around Jack London Square >(which led to the crackdown on "campus organizing" that led by way of >response to Jack Weinberg getting arrested for the simple act of >setting up a card table and being held in the police car in Sproul >Plaza for 36 hours as students refused to let the cops take him >downtown, the first "event" of the Free Speech Movement (and that was >still a year ahead of the first Vietnam Day Teach-in). > >Here's a question: Were Spicer, Duncan, Parkinson, Blaser, Rexroth or >any of the others around at the time involved in the 3 or 4 day general >strike that occurred in Oakland in 1949, the last such to be truly >attempted (and successful to the degree that people did go out) in the >US? This was the same year that KPFA was founded (Rexroth was active in >that and Spicer had a folk music program for a little while). > >Ron Silliman > > Michael Davidson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 08:09:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Davidson Subject: Re: The Bay scene in 1950s Whew, thanks Kevin...I thought that TP had been shot somewhat later than the time that RD and JS were students there. Now another query--was the incident also related to Parkinson's stance on the Loyalty Oath controversy--that was certainly in the news by that time. MD At 12:10 AM 3/27/96 -0800, you wrote: >Regarding the shooting of Thomas Parkinson-I know a little bit! > >Ed Foster is almost correct, but wrong to suppose that the gunman had no >motive beyond "he was there." In addition, Jack Spicer didn't take over >Parkinson's classes but merely helped Josephine Miles and others grade >papers for him while he recuperated. > >Michael Davidson pretty much hits the nail on the head but just places the >date a little late. Ron Silliman's dating is too early. > >Parkinson was shot in his office, January 18, 1961. The assailant >proposed to open World War III by an assault on "liberals" in this, the >still highly charged aftermath of the McCarthy era. He wounded Parkinson >and killed a graduate student who happened to be conferring at the >professor's desk. The killer was a student obsessed with anti-Communism >and indeed believed Parkinson to be a communist since he had defended in >the student newspaper the students Ron alludes to who participated in the >famous sit-in at San Francisco City Hall. This is the incident that opens >up the documentary of a few years back, "Berkeley in the Sixties" (and >isn't the Parkinson incident featured in that film too?) Parkinson, who >died four years ago, recounted the story to me and Lew Ellingham as we were >interviewing him, in June of 1991, for our projected biography of Spicer, >with heavy emphasis on the terrible waste of the young graduate student's >life. > >Hope this helps! -Kevin Killian > > Michael Davidson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 08:15:21 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerry Rothenberg Subject: Re: query abt stein/toklas dear Maria -- Regarding Stein, David Antin used to read (or to suggest reading) THE MAKING OF AMERICANS as a great shtetl novel -- certainly an immigrant account though with the jewishness (I think) sub rosa. In A BIG JEWISH BOOK I present her with lines from Patriarchal Poetry and sections from A Sonatina Followed by Another, including (as long as we're on the question of did she follow the dietary laws etc) the following Jewish love song (earlir subtitled "the song of Alice B": "Willy nilly with a roasted kid, how you can you be so delicious and give it to the cat. I gave to the cat because we were uncomfortable. We are not naturally uncomfortable, we are a little nervous. I took a piece of pork and I stuck it on a fork and I gave it to curly headed jew jew jew. I want my little jew to be round like a pork, a young round pork with a cork for his tail. A young round pork. I want my little jew to be round like a young round pork. I do." More that in the surrounding sections. All best JERRY ps. When as a kid I first began reading Stein, my mother asked me (good naturedly, I should add): "What makes you so interested in that 'alte yiddeneh'?" Somewhere, I remember, Gertrude refers to herself in somewhat the same way -- but likely with a different tonality. She was also not beyond a certain fashionable (if possibly defensive) anti-semitism -- as in the passage Mark came up with. But that much is par for the course. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 08:20:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: query abt stein/toklas I'm thinking of the instructive friendship between Stein and Laura Riding . . . seems to me that part of their bonding (unusual for both women) was some kind of Jewish connection. Wasn't it Stein, who had visited there, who recommended Mallorca to Riding in the first place? And didn't she do so knowing Riding's desire for a kind of Old Testament Zion (I don't have the letters with me)-Mallorca as the place where the early Jewish mariners had established a homeland? Or maybe Emily is right and they were just these 2 American footloose geniuses who recognized each other neither as women nor Jews.-Kevin Killian, God, do I sound dumb today. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 11:59:09 +0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Semansky Subject: EPR Has anyone tried (successfully) to e-mail _Electronic Poetry Review_ . I keep getting a "host unknown" response to the two addresses listed in recent posts. chris s. *************************************************************************** "The current state of knowledge can be summarized thus: In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded." -Terry Pratchett ***************************************************************************** Chris Semansky Campus Writing Program 325 General Classroom Building University of Missouri-Columbia Columbia, MO 65211 573-884-7310 writcks@showme.missouri.edu http://www.missouri.edu/~writcks *************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 13:44:36 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: AWP Chronicle, discussions of form In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 27 Mar 1996 10:52:03 -0500 from On Wed, 27 Mar 1996 10:52:03 -0500 Mark Wallace said: > >Frederick Turner's article "The Inner Meaning Of POetic Form" begins "It >is becoming clear at this moment that the most dynamic and promising >trend in poetry today is the expansive movement, or the New Formalism, as >it is also known." Need I say more? > > I thought I would post this just in case anybody out there was >thinking that there was no longer any need to argue for or promote the >significance of "avant garde" work--we can argue all day about what to >call it, but the fact of the matter is that highly "official" creative >writing professional publications still often act as if it doesn't even >exist. Are there some connections between reaching a "mainstream" audience, the kind of "official" (pseudo?) notice & canonization Mark's talking about, and formal & rhetorical "finish"? I'm thinking not only of Mark's post but of Chas. Alexander's comments about Jeffers/Olson etc. The New Formerlists call for more "finish" - and Jeffers too displayed much formal/rhetorical flourish & finish - but ironically it also "finishes" them, at least for a certain readerly audience (i.e. Charles demoting Jeffers to a "regional" writer). Olson, on the other hand, seems to relish the notational, the marginal, the unfinished, the incomplete - the ragbag - and I think this exerts both an artistic and political pull on readers in the future - readers as interpreters of dark, unfinished speech; readers as participants in unfinished projects; readers as political participants in unachieved communities... There's plenty of e*x*p*e*r*i*m*e*n*t*a*l work that displays high polish & finish - but according to rules & rhetoric not easily grasped. Then, there's multilevel work - four-fold allegory, for example - with a surface narrative - a surface finish - which if you don't interpret through, leaves you high dry & reified on the surface. (Maybe Frost played at this, in a sometimes heavy-handed way.) Hermeneutics is the sister of Poetics; without her, it's all Medusa-reified. New name for avant-garde or experimental - Unfinished Poetry? (two branches - Unfinished Young Informalists; Unfinished Coterie Formalists)... Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 14:11:53 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: EPR In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 27 Mar 1996 11:59:09 +0400 from On Wed, 27 Mar 1996 11:59:09 +0400 Chris Semansky said: >Has anyone tried (successfully) to e-mail _Electronic Poetry Review_ . I >keep getting a "host unknown" response to the two addresses listed in >recent posts. > Yes - but you have to add "edu" at the end of the address she gave, ...uiowa.edu HG ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 13:31:57 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michelle Roberts Subject: Re: EPR In-Reply-To: NO. I just tried to email ERP not five minutes ago, and the post was returned. I have no idea what the problem is. I posted to the swiggart address. Did you? More Luck, M. Meaghan Roberts | ... in our interpreted world... Ph.D. Candidate - Ethics and Literature | The University of Texas at Dallas | Meaghan@UTDALLAS.EDU | ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 13:42:23 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michelle Roberts Subject: Re: AWP Chronicle, discussions of form In-Reply-To: HI, it seems I have an oppurtunity to enter this discussion. I happen to study with Dr. Turner from time to time here a UTD. He and I disagree on the vitality and the politics of the New Formalism. My attitude in conversation with him has been, "Well, ok, but there are lots of textures *out there* in the world that highly polished and formal poetry won't *jive* with. Sonnets, for instance, describe and assume an orderly universe, and orderly and relatively uncontested social order. Fred's ideas about formalism arise from the context of an entire social project which he descirbes to my dissatisfaction in -The Culture of Hope- which is basically that the Englightenment was right,and we got it wrong, so let's go back. This is a gross and unfinished representation of his argument, but if anyone's curious about it I could try to represent Fred, or I could turn him on to the list for a while. Lastly, I'm not even too thrilled that the avant garde has a name at all; that name is a convenient tag which allows its diserate projects, modes, goals and textures to be lumped together and dismissed. I'd rather we had to talk about one poet, painter, sculptor, etc at a time and really do the work of adressing the work. Hoping to hear, M. Meaghan Roberts | ... in our interpreted world... Ph.D. Candidate - Ethics and Literature | The University of Texas at Dallas | Meaghan@UTDALLAS.EDU | ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 14:08:27 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: EPR me, too, i.e. no success in getting the e-mail through. where's the pony express? charles >Has anyone tried (successfully) to e-mail _Electronic Poetry Review_ . I >keep getting a "host unknown" response to the two addresses listed in >recent posts. > >chris s. > > *************************************************************************** >"The current state of knowledge can be summarized thus: In the beginning >there was nothing, which exploded." -Terry Pratchett > ***************************************************************************** > Chris Semansky > Campus Writing Program > 325 General Classroom Building > University of Missouri-Columbia > Columbia, MO 65211 > 573-884-7310 > writcks@showme.missouri.edu > http://www.missouri.edu/~writcks > *************************************************************************** > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 14:24:15 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: AWP Chronicle, discussions of form >Lastly, I'm not even too thrilled that the avant garde has a name at all; >that name is a convenient tag which allows its diserate projects, modes, >goals and textures to be lumped together and dismissed. I'd rather we >had to talk about one poet, painter, sculptor, etc at a time and really >do the work of adressing the work. I do think we have to talk about each artist, although no work exists without a context, and many times it makes sense to speak of more than one artist at a time and to try to find out how different ones speak to/with each other. This can make for movements, but it doesn't always. It certainly does not make for one united "avant garde" movement; neither is there one united mainstream out from which the avant garde erupts. So I agree and disagree with you. I think there is a danger in speaking about "one poet, painter, sculpture" at a time to then go on to speak of one work at a time and get back into a sort of new critical approach which removes the work of art from the world, and I hope that's not what we want. Everything I have heard about the New Formalist movement makes me want to be far away from it, although I wonder about what you report as Turner's sense that New Formalism thinks the Enlightenment was right and we got it wrong after that. Just that I believe that any school of thought that truly thinks of the Enlightenment as enlightened in some singular way is reducing that period's complexity. After all, it not only gave us Samuel Johnson's Vanity of Human Wishes, but also Christopher Smart's Song to David and Jubilate Agno, and Laurence Sterne's Tristram Shandy. And even a lot of reading in Johnson can cause one to question the supposed Reason of this Age. charles ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 15:41:11 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: EPR In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 27 Mar 1996 14:08:27 -0600 from On Wed, 27 Mar 1996 14:08:27 -0600 Charles Alexander said: >me, too, i.e. no success in getting the e-mail through. where's the pony >express? > >charles > >>Has anyone tried (successfully) to e-mail _Electronic Poetry Review_ . I >>keep getting a "host unknown" response to the two addresses listed in >>recent posts. --Add "edu" to end of address. I.e. swiggart@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Worked for me. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 15:49:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: (Fwd) PBS, NPR (National Public Radio) I think this has already been circulated around here, i remember signing a similar petition a month or so back, but my name wasn't on here, so it's going around again... eryque >> Public Broadcasting Petition >> >> PLEASE read, sign, and forward >> >> PBS, NPR (National Public Radio), and the arts are facing major cutbacks >> in funding. In spite of the efforts of each station to reduce spending >> costs and streamline their services, the government officials believe >that >> the funding currently going to these programs is too large a portion of >> funding for something which is seen as "unworthwhile". >> >> Currently, taxes from the general public for PBS equal $1.12 per person >per >> year, and the National Endowment for the Arts equals $.64 a year in >total. >> A January 1995 CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll indicated that 76% of >Americans >> wish to keep funding for PBS, third only to national defense and law >> enforcement as the most valuable programs for federal funding. >> >> Each year, the Senate and House Appropriations commitees each have 13 >> subcommitees with jurisdiction over many programs and agencies. Each >> subcommitee passes its own appropriation bill. The goal each year is to >> have each bill signed by the beginning of the fiscal year, which is >> October 1. >> >> In the instance of the Corporation of Public Broadcasting, the >> bill determines the funding for the next three years. When this issue >comes >> up in 1996, the funding will be determined for fiscal years1996-1998. >> >> The only way that our representatives can be aware of the base of >support >> for PBS and funding for these types of programs is by making our voices >> heard. Please add your name to this list if you believe in what we >stand >> for. This list will be forwarded to the President of the United States, >the >> Vice President of the United States, and Representative Newt Gingrich, >who >> is the instigator of the action to cut funding to these worthwhile >> programs. >> >> If you happen to be the 50th, 100th, 150th, etc. signer of this >petition, >> please forward a copy to wein2688@blue.univnorthco.edu. If that address >is >> inoperative, please send it to kubi7975@blue.univnorthco.edu. This way >we >> can keep track of the lists and organize them. Forward this to everyone >you >> know, and help us to keep these programs alive. >> >> Thank you. >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- >> >> 1. Elizabeth Weinert, student, University of Northern Colorado, >Greeley, CO >> 2. Nikki Marchman, student, University of Northern Colorado, Greeley, >CO >> 3. Laura King, Salt Lake City, UT >> 4. Mary Lambert, San Francisco, CA >> 5. Sam Tucker, Seattle, WA >> 6. Steve Mack, Seattle, WA >> 7. Stacy Shelley, Sub Pop Records, Seattle, WA >> 8. Kerri Harrop, Sub Pop Records, Seattle, WA >> 9. Christopher Langkamp, Crustacean Records, Milwaukee, WI >> 10. Todd Streicher, Flyswatter Inc., Madison, WI >> 11. David Beining, Explora Science Center, Albuquerque, NM >> 12. Tracy Dingmann, writer, Albuquerque Journal, Albuquerque, NM >> 13. Johnny Snyder, mathematician, University of NM >> 14. Paul M. Bennett, mathematician, University of New Mexico, >Albuquerque, NM >> 15. Nicolas Robidoux, mathematician, University of New Mexico, >Albuquerque, >>NM >> 16. Laura Ring, Research Analyst, Div. of Gov. Research, UNM, >>Albuquerque, NM >> 17. Leonard Plunkett, Career Resources, Career Services, UNM, Albuq, NM >> 18. Bart Norman, Career Services, UNM, Albuqu. NM >> 19. Louise Edwards, Career Services, UNM, Albuq. NM >> 20. Lynne A. Sampson, MPH, Emory University, Atlanta, GA >> 21. Jennifer Doherty Mitra, MS, University of Illinois at Chicago, >Chicago, >>IL >> 22. Dan Doherty, M.D. Ph.D. student, UCSF Medical School, SF, CA >> 23. Taara Eden Hoffman, Publicity & Promotions Director, Wired Magazine >> 24. Allison Moseley, Foreign Circulation, Wired Magazine >> 25. Kristina Pappas, IDG Books Worldwide Inc. >> 26. Sam Tucker, Progressive Networks, Inc. >> 27. Holly Baldwin, Boalt Hall School of Law, UC Berkeley >> 28. Erik Wieland, Stanford University >> 29. Geoff Pitfield, LMI >> 30. Kristin Burns, Administrator, Stanford University >> 31. Sean Burns, Manager, Fontana's Italian, Menlo Park, CA >> 32. Karen Anderson, Marketing, Klutz Press >> 33. Tom Borthwick, Editorial Tester, Scholastic Inc. >> 34. David Borthwick, math professor, Univ. of Michigan >> 35. Peter de Boor, musician, Ypsilanti, MI >> 36. Carl de Boor, mathematician, Madison, WI >> 37. Paul Nevai, Dept. Math., The Ohio State University, Columbus, OH >43210 >> 38. Larry Hatfield, Mathematics Education, The University of Georgia, >>Athens, GA 30602 >> 39. John Olive, Mathematics Education, The University of Georgia, >>Athens, GA 30602 >>40. John Benson, Mathematics Teacher, Evanston Illinois, 60202 >>41. Lesley Williams, Librarian, Evanston Illinois, 60201 >>42. Gordon Hazen, engineering professor, Northwestern University, >Evanston >IL 60208 >>43. Marilyn Justman, consultant, Evanston, IL 60202 >>44. Bennett C. Weaver, consultant, Oak Park, IL 60302 >>45. Harvey S. Millman, technical writer, Evanston, IL 60202 >46. Kristen R. Stenglein, technical writer, Des Plaines, IL 60016 >47. Joe Amato, English professor, Chicago, IL 60615 >48. Kassie Fleisher, English professor, Chicago, IL 60615 > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 16:41:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Jeffers and Spicer In-Reply-To: <199603271452.IAA10592@freedom.mtn.org> from "Charles Alexander" at Mar 27, 96 08:52:29 am It was actually Spicer who led me to Jeffers: A redwood forest is not invisible at night. The blackness covers it but it covers the blackness. If they had turned Jeffers into parking lot death would have been eliminated and birth also. The lights shine 24 hours a day on a parking lot. True conversation is the effort of the artist and the private man to keep things true. Trees and the cliffs in Big Sur breathe in the dark. Jeffers knew the pain of their breathe and the pain was the death of a first-born baby breathing. Death is not final. Only parking lots. --from "Thing Language" Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 17:04:45 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Edwards <100344.2546@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Barry MacSweeney There have been a few -- too many -- announcements of poets' deaths on this list recently. It's a pleasure to report on a poet's coming back to life. Barry MacSweeney gave his first reading in some years last night (27 March), at the Three Cups, London, in the SubVoicive reading series. To say Barry has been unwell recently is something of an understatement -- he has been struggling with his alcoholism, and has been reportedly and on his own admission close to death. But he's fighting back, and last night's reading counts as a triumph. Looking thin and somewhat fragile, he nevertheless delivered a robust, courageous and moving reading from his unpublished Book of Demons (I think it's called) and from Pearl, recently published by Equipage -- revealing that his linguistic inventiveness and energy are undiminished. He got warm and heartfelt applause from the audience of about 30 or so. Barry's Trigram Press book Odes (1978) was for me one of the defining moments in the new British poetry. Other books include Black Torch (1978) and Ranter (1985). The supporting act was Peter Manson, an excellent young Scottish poet and the co-editor of Object Permanence, one of the most interesting mags in the UK today. I hope there'll be a book on its way from him. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 17:07:17 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Re: AWP Chronicle, discussions of form Mark: I think the question isn't "why aren't the marginalized advance- guarde better represented in AWP" but rather "why do we as writers return to the same journals and expect different results?"Can't say I ever bought a good vegetarian meal at McDonalds. Since I know what kind of material to expect, that rarely bothers me. Instead, what I found annoying in this article were the lapses in logic, such as the statement that "language (should) become more than the sum of its ordinary parts." As if this bears relevance to the specific instance of formal poetry, as if the ordinary parts of the phoneme and morpheme or of whole words really control the sucess of the piece. THERE ARE NO ORDINARY PARTS, unless of course they had chosen an awful piece.> The effect of the Operator implying the unsaid through sound, page-placement, line break, etc. are all unordinary parts, that is to say they are parts specifically chosen for the piece with the utmost scrutiny. Dictators never jail literary critics - Simic David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 17:18:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: AWP Chronicle, discussions of form re: "unfinished"ness --this is precisely what i find exciting about much poetry that is not taken seriously by either New Formalists or, judging from the thematics of list discussions, many folks on the POETRICKS list. open mikes, slams, topical poetry, and micro-poetries that abound in households, neighborhoods, therapeutic venues, and various dissident traditions often seem, to formally trained folks, to lack "finish" or sophistication. cf our recent "charmingly naive" discussion. this is part of their power. it's a strength, as i see it, an opening to the reader's engagement, in the way that a line of conversation in "unfinished" in that it actively anticipates particpation rather than rapt consumption. --mari a d ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 17:18:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: query abt stein/toklas thanks everyone, for all the response. it's all central to my thinking along these many crisscrossing and spiraling lines. my own sense is that Stein was deeply opposed to a sense of Jewishness as a "race" that had to have a "nation," as Reverie of a Zionist makes clear. she felt, of course, that such a position limited her autonomy, her freedom of choice to construct her own id/entity (the concept of identity itself was one she challenged very deeply). hwoever, the way i read that piece is that she makes a case ("This is an expression of Shem") for her opposition to a race-based argument --she's very much in line with "progressive" Jewish social scientists at the time like Melville Herskovitz, Maurice Fishberg, etc --being a legitimate way to "be Jewish." As charles b and i have discussed, I take her discomfort with "identity" as an essential characteristic to be, arguably, in line with a Jewish intellectual tradition (not an essential biological Jewish trait, obviously) of challenging fixed discourse. md ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 21:48:23 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Performance Writing Conference / Dartington 12-14 April Performance Writing Conference April 12-14 at Dartington College of Arts (Devon) Public Performances: Alaric Sumner - 'Error Studies' Ronald Fraser-Munro - 'Bruder, C'est Grim' / ' Le Monde du Pen and Ink' SuAndi - 'The Story of M' Readings with cris cheek / Caroline Bergvall / Aaron Williamson / Cherry Smyth / Anthony Howell / Drew Milne / Jean 'Binta' Breeze Conference Papers: Matthew Goulish (Goat Island) - 'Five Short Lectures on Performance Writing' Tim Etchells (Forced Entertainment) - 'New Instructions for Ghost Writers' Cherry Smyth - 'Visual Translations: Art History Extended' Susan Croft - 'Dreaming New Forms' Drew Milne - 'Susan Howe and the Visual Performance of Writing' John Cayley - Cybertext and the Performance of (Plastic) Literary Objects' Heiner Goebbels - 'Opening the Text - Composition & the Spoken Word' John Hall - 'On Grammar & Performance Writing' Steve Baker - 'Flying, Stealing: Cixous, Words and Things' Panel Sessions: Live Writing - Chair: Claire MacDonald Hybrid Writings/ Hybrid Identities - Chair: Andrea Phillips Writing, Materiality and Technology - Chair: Andrea Phillips Spoken Texts/ Written Speech - Chair: Rod Mengham Additional events during the Conference: % cris cheek (writer-in-residence) will make interventions, provocations and broadcasts during the symposium as a whole (from the Research Unit) % The Vault of Language: an exhibition of performance writings in various media curated by cris cheek with Brigid McLeer and Sally Tallant (Ship Studio). A catalogue is available price #1.50. % Itinerant Texts: an exhibition of new work for slide projection by 12 artists commissioned by Book Works (London) - (Studio 2) % The Dartington Collection and Archive at High Cross House - open to Conference participants. (Saturday and Sunday 14.00 -18.00 hrs) % Book and Information Stall (Lower Close Foyer) % Richard Povall will be constructing and running a Performance Writing Web-Site during the Conference and cris cheek will be providing guided tours to Internet sites of interest to performance writers. (Research Unit) % Jools Gilson-Ellis and Richard Povall will be demonstrating their ACE funded interactive CD-Rom project 'Mouthplace' over the weekend. % Susan Croft and Michael Macmillan of MMU will talk about the ACE commissioned 'Live Writing' report. % Ben Paine and John Deeney will talk about the New Playwrights Trust 'Writing Live' report commissioned by LAB. ******* Between Wednesday 10th April and Friday 12th April there are workshops (still a very few places available) with the following practitioners: Jean 'Binta' Breeze Mary Lemley Mike Pearson Fiona Templeton Aaron Williamson & Tertia Longmire workshop showings will form part of the conference weekend. there will be conference bulletins during and after and the opportunity for others who can't attend to contribute via these electronic media until then love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 15:47:47 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerry Rothenberg Subject: Re: AWP Chronicle, discussions of form Regarding "unfinished poetry," why do I remember from some years back a distinction being made, using Levi-Strauss's terms, between raw & cooked poetry? Was it me? was it someone else? was it just a dream? Clearly we were on the side of raw poetry -- on the side, that is, of the gods -- or were we? Jerome Rothenberg ps. A "formalism" that's blind (or deaf) to the work of (let's say) Jackson Mac Low wouldn't know order from chaos or would restrict it to the trivia of ABAB or its variations. But that discussion is -- & always has been -- a dead end. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 16:50:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "M. Magoolaghan" Subject: Re: caveat webber In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19960327085655.49379216@mail.azstarnet.com> On Wed, 27 Mar 1996, Tenney Nathanson wrote: > Mike Magoolaghan-- > > your interesting looking www page (which I found through Alta Vista, an > amazing search engine) has now crashed my computer twice (each time I've > tried to load the page: one of those serious Windows 3.1 major GPFs that > dumps you right back into cold unadorned reality). > > Is anyone else having this problem? > > or, Mike: what I ever do to you? > > best, > > Tenney > Hi Tenney, nice to hear from you. No, I haven't had anyone else complain about this, but I'll look into it. You (or anyone else) have any idea what might be causing such problems? I'm still pretty much a novice at this webpage thing--never realized you could crash someone else's computer at such distances! Hope the damage/inconvenience was minimal. Thanks for the alert, MM ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I hear you say: "All that is not *fact*; it is poetry." Nonsense! Bad poetry is false, I grant, but nothing is truer than true poetry. And let me tell the scientific men that the artists are much finer and more accurate observers than they are, except of the special minutiae that the scientific man is looking for. --Charles S. Peirce, Collected Papers 1.316 Michael Magoolaghan mmagoola@u.washington.edu Webpage: http://weber.u.washington.edu/~mmagoola ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 19:43:12 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: AWP Chronicle, discussions of form and Jeffers too displayed >much formal/rhetorical flourish & finish - but ironically it also >"finishes" them, at least for a certain readerly audience (i.e. Charles >demoting Jeffers to a "regional" writer). Henry, please don't read me in such a reductive manner. I specifically said that, moving away from California and finding most readers (and people who were familiar with lots of poetry) not familiar with Jeffers, I considered him more regional "as far as reputation goes." In terms of my own sense of his work and his relative importance, I'd rather not say anything for now as I have not read his work in any depth for two decades. But I didn't demote him, and if I gave you that impression, I apologize. charles ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 18:06:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shaunanne Tangney Subject: Re: robinson jeffers/west coast scene In-Reply-To: <199603271452.IAA10592@freedom.mtn.org> jeffers is alive and well today. he got a healthy shot in the arm from the ecocrits who read him as a nature poet, but there are myself and others who are subjecting RJ to the rigors of poststructuralism, deconstruction, etc--and he can handle it! indeed, to me it seems that his work fairly cries out for it. i gave a paper at RMMLA this fall on inhumanism and feminism, and it went over quite well, if i do say so myself. there is a robinson jeffers assotiation, and soon to be a refereed _jeffers studies_ journal. we hold an anual international jeffers conference--was at occidental this year, i think back at carmel again next year. there is a jeffers list, and should anyone be interested, send mail to . current jeffers scholars include tim Hunt, Robert Zaller, Bob Brophy, David Copeland Morris, Terry Beers--and a host of "new blood" such as myslef, Peter Quigley and David Rothman. there will be a RJ panel at this year's ALA (San Diego) should any of you be in the area and interested. some surface stuff, i know--but evidence of his remainig inport in the modern poetry world--although i think i would have to argue that RJ is antimodern--! best, shaunanne ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 15:52:49 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Subject: Re: nea creative writing fellowships In-Reply-To: Except for John Koethe (whose work I haven't read in 15 years, but which I recall I liked) I have never heard of any of the recipients (or half of the panel, for that matter). am I out of it or what? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 10:36:33 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R I Caddel Subject: Re: Barry MacSweeney Happy to echo Ken's pleasure in the resurfacing of Barry MacSweeney, and to plug PEARL once more as I did when it appeared last year: ... I in worry eat my fist, soak my sandwich in saliva, chew my lip a thousand times without any bought impediment. Please believe me when my mind says and my eyes send telegraphs: I am Pearl. So low a nobody I am beneath the cowslip's shadow, next to the heifers' hooves. I have a roof over my head, but none in my mouth. All my words are homeless. - And to say how important his "Odes" were to me too, and how well they read now. Barry's work's always changing, developing in ways which delight me, and I hope he continues to mend. His recent Subvoicive reading may be his "first reading in some years" in London, but I'm pleased to say that he gave great readings in the Northeast at least twice last year, both at Newcastle's Morden Tower. One of these was the Bunting Centre's memorial for Eric Mottram, where Barry read chunks of Pearl, ansd was accompanied by Tom Pickard, Bill Griffiths, and yrs trly. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx x x x Richard Caddel, E-mail: R.I.Caddel @ durham.ac.uk x x Durham University Library, Phone: 0191 374 3044 x x Stockton Rd. Durham DH1 3LY Fax: 0191 374 7481 x x x x "Words! Pens are too light. Take a chisel to write." x x - Basil Bunting x x x xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 08:15:54 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: AWP Chronicle, discussions of form In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 27 Mar 1996 13:42:23 -0600 from On Wed, 27 Mar 1996 13:42:23 -0600 Michelle Roberts said: > Sonnets, for instance, describe and assume an orderly >universe, and orderly and relatively uncontested social order. Really? Seems to me the benchmark in sonnets in english, Shakespeare's, celebrate, mourn, ironize, a breakdown in relations between women/men. They show a social order based on "games people play" and how these games self-destruct. They start with these avuncular advisements of an elderly gent to a handsome young man to "be fruitful and multiply" & disintegrate from there. The only standard still standing at the end is "love" - but love with a shady meaning. I think forms can be turned in any direction you want. But M. Damon's remarks on the struggle between "finish" & "unfinished" focus on something that has been true for a long time (let's say, back to the beginning of scribes), & D. Baratier's Simic quote (Dictators don't jail critics) is clever about these age old power/prestige/finish questions. Poets are unacknowledged legislators when they connect with an audience; critics are acknowledged legislators when they connect with publishers. Then there are your poet-critics, who are dictators who somehow avoided a jail term. ("Le Sonnette, c'est Moi")- Hank Gould ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 08:49:11 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: AWP Chronicle, discussions of form In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 27 Mar 1996 15:47:47 PST from On Wed, 27 Mar 1996 15:47:47 PST Jerry Rothenberg said: > >ps. A "formalism" that's blind (or deaf) to the work of (let's say) Jackson >Mac Low wouldn't know order from chaos or would restrict it to the trivia >of ABAB or its variations. But that discussion is -- & always has been -- a >dead end. Agreed that such restrictions would trivialize ABAB or its variations; but if you say ABAB or its variations are in themselves trivial, I must say with much rawness that you are either a literary critic or a dictator! - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 08:59:16 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Bouchard Subject: borders and wobblies You won't be hearing over your local Borders intercom system, "Fellow Worker, please pick-up line one" anytime soon. The Philadelphia Borders booksellers voted not to unionize with the IWW yesterday (25 to 20, I hear). That's all I know. daniel_bouchard@hmco.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 09:49:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: george hartley Subject: Howe grafts Hi--does anyone have anything of interest that you could paste into an e-mail message and send to me concerning Susan Howe, her work, her teaching, her Emily Dickinson, and so on? I'm introducing her this Sunday afternoon at the Wexner Center in Columbus (she's talking about visual Emily) and I'd like to do some kind of grafting exercise, cutting & pasting from various sources, if I have time to pull it off. If anyone has anything & can send it by Sat morning, I'd be grateful & happy. Thanks for your help. George Hartley ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 10:27:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: borders and wobblies DAMN---about the uNION vote! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 07:40:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Davidson Subject: Re: query abt stein/toklas but Maria, so many modernists felt discomfort with "identity" that I wonder if you can hang it on Jewish cultural and social origins. This would make T.S. Eliot and Henry James honorary Jews. There's an equally compelling argument for making such discomfort a response to modern commodity culture in general, the city as "shock," the commodity as objectifier, against which the individual constructs a separate, disinterested field. One could also make the argument that her inheritance of German transcendentalist philosophy, from Kant to Whitehead, encouraged the same kinds of opposition to "identity" and hence to a world of affective, emotional ties. In fact it was precisely this kind of gemeinschaft association of Jewish culture that Pound so vilified ("intravaginal affections," I believe was his phrase). But I would agree with you that Stein would not have approved of a nation-based notion of race, on the Zionist model, and that it would have had more to do with cultural traditions. P.S. One "take" that would support your view would be to look at Simmel's "Metropolis and Mental LIfe" where he makes the same argument about individual identity being purchased as a defense against the confusions of the city. And he was a Jew writing very much at the same time as Stein. best, md At 05:18 PM 3/27/96 -0500, you wrote: >thanks everyone, for all the response. it's all central to my thinking along >these many crisscrossing and spiraling lines. my own sense is that Stein was >deeply opposed to a sense of Jewishness as a "race" that had to have a >"nation," as Reverie of a Zionist makes clear. she felt, of course, that >such a position limited her autonomy, her freedom of choice to construct her >own id/entity (the concept of identity itself was one she challenged very >deeply). hwoever, the way i read that piece is that she makes a case ("This >is an expression of Shem") for her opposition to a race-based argument >--she's very much in line with "progressive" Jewish social scientists at the >time like Melville Herskovitz, Maurice Fishberg, etc --being a legitimate >way to "be Jewish." As charles b and i have discussed, I take her >discomfort with "identity" as an essential characteristic to be, arguably, in >line with a Jewish intellectual tradition (not an essential biological Jewish >trait, obviously) of challenging fixed discourse. >md > > Michael Davidson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 10:53:51 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Re: AWP Chronicle, discussions of form On the Sonnet: Where does one arrive at the idea of the sonnet assuming an orderly universe and relatively uncontested social order? Especially in the modern context, but also in the built in traits of the form. Whether it's Shakespeare or Spenserian rhythm patterns, there still is a turn in the European or Italian placement which is designed to bring the reader to a re-imagining and re-fashioning of society. Holy Sonnet #10 was revolutionary, that Donne could bring any audience to affirm denying destiny during a hierarchical society whose daily focus centered around the wheel of fortune. This effect may not be apparent in the present and therefore might seem to leave the social order relatively uncontested yet these are effects of time, not of intention or reception. Applying this same frame of the how the "orderly universe" is reflected in recent instances of the sonnet, the reflection becomes one of pure opposition. Berrigan's caesural tensions, Mayer's reclaimation of the sonnet from a purely masculinist form, Hoover's injection of humor, and Berryman's rejection and destruction of the form throughout the Dream Songs. There is where listening happens, unaware Blending into attention. -- Jorge Guillen David.Baratier@moby.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 10:50:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: query abt stein/toklas Kevin Killian-- you might want to look at the argument in one of those early sulfurs (circa #12 or something) where (Riding) Jackson coins the term J=E=W=I=S=H=N=E=S=S.... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 09:44:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: E-Zine Questionnaire - Request >Leilani Wright has asked me to forward this questionnaire to participants on this list, in the hope that some of you may see fit to respond. Leilani will be making a presentation about electronic magazines at this April's AWP Conference. Responses to this questionnaire will provide a foundation for her examination of reader response to a selection of electronic publications. Leilani has examined more than 80 journals, and is seeking to hear from readers of these e-zines. > >Those who participate will receive the following: > >1. The list of e-zines and URLs accumulated as part of Leilani's study >2. Summary of the presentation > >SPECIAL NOTE: Those of you wishing to participate, please forward your responses to Leilani Wright at the following address: > >cervantes@mc.maricopa.edu > > >DO NOT REPLY TO THIS LIST OR TO ME. > >Thanks in advance. > >Sheila Murphy > > >> >>QUESTIONNAIRE FOR CONTRIBUTORS AND READERS >>OF LITERARY E-ZINES >> >> >>1. Have you published any of your work in electronic literary e-zines? If >>so, please name one or two that you recommend and tell me why you decided to >>submit work to them. >> >>2. Do you regularly or sometimes read any literary e-zines? Please >>recommend 1 or 2 only and tell me why they interest you. >> >>3. What do you feel are the main advantages of reading and/or publishing >>in e-zines? What are the personal and professional benefits? >> >>4. In contrast to #3, what do you feel are the disadvantages? >> >>5. As a contributor to e-zines, have you experienced any conflicts or >>problems with e-editors, e-readers, print editors, plagiarists, etc.? Any >>copyright problems? If so, please relate the details and how the issue was >>resolved. >> >>6. Do you feel that the electronic medium is influencing e-editors to >>publish certain kinds (shapes, forms, genres, styles, etc.) of poetry, stories, >>reviews or creative non-fiction? If you have noticed such a tendency or trend, >>please describe it. >> >>7. Frankly, do you really think people are reading any of these e-zines? What >>do you think of e-zine quality when compared to print journal quality? >>Please name 2 literary e-zines that you think are of high quality. >> >>8. What do you envision the future of e-zine publishing to be in 5 years? >>20 years? Do you think that e-zines will replace the prints in the future? >>Will they complement each other? Or will they be separate but equal? >> >>9. Are you confused or troubled by current digital copyright issues? How >>are you protecting yourself when publishing on-line? >> >>10. Do you feel that your exposure to e-journals has changed the way you >>read creative work and/or write your poems and stories? >> >>============================================================================= >> >>Thank you very much for slogging through these 10 questions. Please let me >>know if there is a question I should have asked but didn't. >> >> >> >> Leilani Wright--==--==--<*^*>--==--==--Mesa, Arizona >> cervantes@mc.maricopa.edu >> >> >> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 12:08:01 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: AWP Chronicle, discussions of form WOW! What great books!!! I am reading yours & Kim's & Nichol's in turn, in random bits--I think bp would have approved. More soon. Gwyn ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 12:05:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: raw and cooked Before they took her off of the book beat and put her on the theater beat, Margo Jefferson reviewed (in one article) books by Joseph Ceravolo and Stephen Sandy for the New York Times. She argued that Ceravolo's poetry was raw, and Sandy's was cooked, and then she said that she preferred the cooked. It seemed like an extraordinary thing to say. Of course it was extraordinary that Ceravolo would be reviewed in the Times at all. This does _not_ mean that things in the businesses of poetry, newspapers or anthropology are in a bad way. What seems to be developing among younger writers (come to the Poetry Talks) is an alternative, a quertblatz poetry that borrows heavily from several conservative traditions, and is unironic about that borrowing. These writers seem to want to learn how to cook. And why not? Cooking preserves, and a good cook can take so-so food and make it delicious. Good cooks always use the freshest possible goods. Who among you does not enjoy a well-cooked meal. Now it may be asked, isn't it conservative to cook. Yes, it is conservative to cook. It is, traditionally, a woman's job, or a servant's job, or an invisible person's job. Is it macho to eat raw. Maybe. It is exciting. Probably the mistake is to look at anthropology as describing states of advance and primitvism, and likewise, to look at the historical development of poetry as producing ever greater examples of the same kind of poetic effect. Generally, both these errors have led to gorgeous incoherent monsters. Post-language and pre-destination, Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 12:14:20 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: AWP Chronicle, discussions of form Mark, all I can say re the AWP Chronicle is--send us articles. I can't get anything about querzblatz poetics in there if nobody sends us anything. (Now trying to persuade my boss to run Joe Amato's piece.) I work at the Chronicle. I like querzblatz poetics. Send the articles and interviews directly to me. I promise to argue for them. I have had all the usual suspects up the ying-yang, too. Gwyn McVay ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 12:28:49 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: blush Argh! Ignore last message, which was meant for Charles Alexander, not the whole list. Still mastering Netscape. <> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 11:24:03 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: AWP Chronicle, discussions of form in response to this question of raw/cooked raised by maria and others: i'm all for keeping an open mind about form, performance, bringing poetry to the public, and the public to poetry... but my reservations about, say, some of what i've seen go down at slams here in chicago have to do with the sort of cultural backdrop we've developed for all such public performance, the extent to which it's become entertainment/spectacle, the sort of work---and i think there IS a sort---that tends most toward receiving a positive reception... it's not that i distrust the public as such (which is not to say the masses as such---i am entirely comfortable with popular culture)... what i don't distrust are the mechanisms that have been developed for valuing and revaluing such work... as i see it, to understand these mechanisms is to understand how our various media have constructed audiences lo this past quarter or half-century or so... it's not that i don't see great potential at slams, or occasionally great performances, or good (to borrow from maria) "household" work... it's that a lot of what i DO see is terrible---not ill-formed or unfinished, but designed to appeal to some rather basic audience impulses... the yield is often a sensationalistic and/or immediately accessible work that often depends on an overwrought, theatrical delivery... poets chewing the scenery, as it were... and i'm not the type who's at all opposed to emotional readings, and i'm also not the type who enjoys hearing my and other folks' bellies gurgle during reverential readings in the hallowed halls of academe... i raise this w/o ire, and in the spirit of trying, as john fowler once so wisely corrected me, to try to keep an open mind about my practice... i guess it's my passion, writing poetry... which always risks that elitist problem discussed hereabouts a while back... but while i can understand the legitimacy of all sorts of language communities, incl. slams, performance poetry (per se), homebrews, and so forth, and while i think it essential to cultivate as much diversity in this regard as possible, i do *feel*, inside me, a resistance NOT to more popular or orthodox poetic forms, but to the assumption that popularizing such popular forms is ipso facto contributing in a meaningful way to meaningful reform or advance in the poetic arts... which are, as i see it, so in need in so many ways of cultural revitalization... joe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 11:32:02 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: AWP Chronicle, discussions of form Perhaps the problem is not with the sonnet but with the uses/arguments to which it has sometimes been put. For example, I once was invited in as a guest to a class at the U of Wisconsin where I introduced certain contemporary poets, ranging from Creeley to Mac Low. After the class, its grad student teacher, who was a bright Indian woman who had grown up in Hong Kong, wanted to argue with me that the sonnet was more accessible to to students in the class than what I had been teaching, in part biologically, i.e. its movement and rhythms were more natural to them. I do think that part of what she had in mind was what she conceived of as its orderliness, and a correspondence of that orderliness to her sense of nature and the world in a variety of ways. And yes, I thought that was rather nonsensical. But to agree with Henry & Daniel, at the time I had recently come through rather intense readings of sonnets by 16th Century writers, particularly Wyatt and Gascoigne, and I thought of neither of them as particularly affirming social orderliness, rather always conscious of a tension between order and disorder. And the form of the work was such as to not give entirely over to order, either. Such tension to me made all the difference in my seeing Wyatt, for one, as a somewhat more raw and considerably more interesting poet than Sidney. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 14:04:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: raw and cooked But, Jordan, isn't IRONY--whether New Critical ("conservative"?) or Ashberian/Lang.Po more "cooked" than "raw"? Sometimes I eat cooked, sometimes I eat raw. .... is one person's refinery another person's CRUDE?.....c ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 08:21:36 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: emnlightenmnet? re: comments on The Enlightenment from Charles Alexander in Re: AWP Chronicle, discussions of form: "Everything I have heard about the New Formalist movement makes me want to be far away from it, although I wonder about what you report as Turner's sense that New Formalism thinks the Enlightenment was right and we got it wrong after that". Enlightenment values of order and reason and rules came in at the expense of the values in thought and writing that in English run from (at least) Chaucer through to Herbert or Marvell (say) -- that includes elimination of a mode which allowed artifice and process to remain audible in the language (e.g. in puns and all kinds of figures which call for multi-levelled allegorical reading). Much as many Enlightenment texts are delightful reading, what was cast in shadow is often closer to quertzblatzian needs (Quertzblatz -- sounds like the School of Blasted Oak poetry, or the School of Hard Knocks). The problems for "revival" of knowledge of the whatever (generic names, a problem, always and ever,) before The Enlightenment (The Baroque?) is largely dependent on readings and ways of writing largely proscribed from the Enlightenment onwards and still prevalent as norms and standards in our academies. SAMPLE QUESTIONS OFF THE TOP OF MY HEADACHE 1. What still tends to keep Giam-Battista Marino out of the canon? Crocean aesthetics? Failure to find the positions for reading that the poetry supposes? Proscription of wiritng and reading positions suitable for reading the poetry? 2. How explain the coincidence of the revival of Baroque studies with the rise of the most useful modernisms ( those intent on denial of given orders and /or of continual demonstration of hidden powers of language and image, and/or disclosure of the hidden anthropologies at work in the construction and reading of artworks?) 3. How explain opposition to modernisms (see 2, above) other than as a continuing obstinate refusal to acknowledge the defectiveness of a one-eyed position, which is still popularly supposed (take a vote on it nation-wide) to be effective and true. Yours truly, Chicken Little. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 16:36:55 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Re[2]: emnlightenmnet? Here's my poll 1. The lack of humanist literary critics and avenues for publishing this form of criticism. What I mean is criticism that is not a pure distillation of negative polarization, or merely a lens. Take "decontructivism" as a lens, we know what results this procedure will enforce upon a text but will it make anyone read the damn thing. If I were to point to a humanist example that fits what I would hope to strive for, as odd as it might sound, I'd say "My Emily Dickinson" by Howe. I feel her passion for some poems that I never read as thoroughly before. I still want to believe that only emotion endures. 2. Couldn't understand question. 3. Very few people read poetry take for example the voter turnout this election year. The container for the thing contained -Jack Gilbert David.Baratier@mosby.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 16:50:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: raw stein & cooked sonnets to go Okay, I'm taking back what I said about Stein seeming ambivalent about her Jewishness&womanhood after a dream last night where she told me I didn't know what the hell I was talking about, then bonded with my nonliterate housemates while snubbing me...and this after I yanked Hemingway's beard a few weeks ago when he badmouthed her...(whatever happened to those nice dreams about cigars and train tunnels?) sonnet conversation reminds me of that wcwilliams statement: "all sonnets say the same thing"--referring to the turn, the way all sonnets land on their feet (even if they have to invent feet at the last minute to do so). so we're talking form, not content---or rather, the content of the form. In which case I kind of agree with the "ordered world" assertion, insofar as the form & turn are strictly adhered to (they usually aren't today). I've been diddling around with writing "experimental" sonnets for a while now. If anything revolutionary occurs, I'll post it. medium rare, e ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Emily Lloyd emilyl@erols.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 18:42:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: AWP Chronicle, discussions of form wyatt is truly amazing, from a weird psychosexual angle, and fun to teach for that reason.-- maria d ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 18:42:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: raw and cooked what's quertblatz? sounds like a cross between a german leaf and a New World rock. md ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 12:21:52 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: AWP Chronicle, discussions of form or Lyn Hejinian 14 PAGE sonnets, complete with rhymes...these not remembered in either of the discussions I have seen of sonnets on this list in the periodical GNOME BAKER (can't remember which number) Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 19:14:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: AWP Chronicle, discussions of form Jerry wrote: Regarding "unfinished poetry," why do I remember from some years back a distinction being made, using Levi-Strauss's terms, between raw & cooked poetry? Was it me? was it someone else? was it just a dream? Clearly we were on the side of raw poetry -- on the side, that is, of the gods -- or were we? ----------------- That was, I believe, Robert Lowell who first made that characterization and may even have preceded L-S in the distinction used as a cultural descriptor. On the general question of finish and closure (riffing off of Gould et al), I actually think (tho I suspect my logic is rather different than Sadoff's) that closure is indeed the Big question lurking w/in modernism... IF (big if, please increase your screen font accordingly) we take modernism to mean not the whole of innovative poetics of this century, pre-holocaust, But rather only that portion of it (High Modernism as Fred Jameson wld have it) which got rather quickly canonized and digested for the students of the 1950s (a world of Pound that situated him within the frame of Stevens and Eliot, rather than, say Stein, WCW or even LZ). My sense has long been (I've said this before) that when writers in the 19th century finally got to the point of arriving at a genuinely tropic realism, the "real" world suddenly turned out to be wholly constructed --i.e., the genuine intellectual/artistic project that was realism (a collective undertaking on the scale of getting one to the moon) suddenly turned out to be a phantom -- thus the career of Joyce's Dubliners leads directly to Ulysses & the Wake, for example (as, say, Dickens, Norris and James lead straight to Pound). The world in the first few decades of this century pretty much divided into those who were actively either trying to find new ways to create that sense of closure again (Joyce and Eliot being the most persistent), tho it also meant exploring the ways in which, always, itv seemed not to work (Crane seems to genuinely pained by this, a real sense of mourning) -- and those who just took it as obvious and went on writing (Stein, say), not bothering to focus the energy of the work in that way. That modernism which got codified was that which aimed at (or faked) closure. Even Whitman was treated like a 19th century media joke first and poet later up until around 1950 (when that slot in the public consciousness seems to have been taken by Stein who still is treated by large sectors of the reading world as a collector of paintings who popularized hash brownies). So much of the mediocre litcrit of the past 40 years still treats the modernism of closure as THE main current of poetry, say (viz. M. Davidson's comments in the Princeton Encyclopedia of Poetry & Poetics), when in fact it is a radical and retro rereading of the work of the period (Cary Nelson's work has done a great job of unearthing the look and feel of that period sans the narrative frames that we have been taught by the likes of Davie, Bloom, Brooks, Jarrell et alia). The curious career of John Ashbery -- his idolization by the very community he so viciously satirizes during his "middle" period -- has I think a lot to do with the ways in which he mimes a finished surface, although the way I read him what he really shows -- brilliantly and repeatedly, is that finish is ultimately a surface effect. I too prefer rough edges. Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 22:32:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: raw and cooked In-Reply-To: <960328184241_500513161@emout07.mail.aol.com> Maria, "querzblatz" is a word I made up to describe the kind of poetics that a broad spectrum of us on this list enjoy and/or write, and that we mostly agree terms like "avant-garde," "language," or even just "new" don't adequately describe. Plus it would get you a hell of a score in Scrabble. Gwyn ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 22:40:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: alphabetic avatars In-Reply-To: <1D6E3704B6@ccnov2.auckland.ac.nz> The Avatars All avatars act as ascii aligned Before broken banners bitter, barren, bound, blind. Cold characters caught, crawled, cold, cracked, calcified; Drawn dependents, dragged down, devolved, drowned, died. Early earth emerged, escaped, erased Full fury fallen, failed, fought for fear, felled, faced Gore, grief, gravel grown gaunt, grown gruesomely grey. Harrowed hell hastened homeward, hoarsely hollered hooray. Ice interned I, immediate, involuted, in Jostled jingles, jealous, jammed joined judging jinn, Kissed knave, killed kine, kindled, kissed kindly knight Like lost loves left leering, like loose lasses' light. Many might mean much, measured manifolds mean more: Nothing numerous, nought, never neither none, nor One. Ontogenetically, organs, ooze, often obscure Prepared proud phalluses, pricked, placed, proffered pure - Quite quickly questioned, quizzed, quote "quagmired," Representing "right reason," resonant. Retired Systems sizzle, suppurating, say, structured slime Toppling to thoughts teetering towards tendered time. Unfortunately, unclassified under ultimate unction, Violence, vexed victims, vent violent version. We watched while wounds wrought weakened warriors X-ing x-chromosomes, x-rated xenophobias. Young yesterdays yawned yore. Yes, you Zap zealously, zygotic zone's zoo. _______________________________________________________________________ Netsex with the Avatars Avatars beg; cyberspace details Electronic fury, grim hails In judgement kind. Leverage Must never openly presage - Quashed really, she thinks. Underneath, vaginal winks, X! You zealously yearn, X! - What viewpoints unborn To systemize? Rare, questioned, Prospects or newcomers motioned Lustfully, killed jinxed intuition Heavily gone for emanation. Depositions considered, birth arrowed Beneficient cunts, devoured Early fates; gestation harrowed Intention's jammed killers, lest Men need objection. Pest Quickly runs, she thought. Untoward, verify what, X? You're zapped, you're X? What, vicious uncanny troll Seems rancid? Quote "Patrol Often neatly muscles, licks, Kisses juicily; immured hicks Groan fiercely, eagerly. Dicks Cum, beautifully, affixed!" ______________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 22:26:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: Announcing/Call for Submissions EPR Here is the paste-up version of Sheila Murphy's submission. Prose pieces affected by formatting are Letters 39, 40, and Previously Named... Thanks. I look forward to hearing. SEM LETTERS TO UNFINISHED J. 39. He introduced me to the possibility of circumspection by first speaking the word, using an adjective about someone with figures in his left breast pocket we presumed. Fingers in pie (blackbirds) and a humid wash of possible stilletos somewhere in the evenstance. My mentor was a mood to me, a priest. Evented in the solid wall of no specific interruptions as a yeast implants the further possibility of our statistics' rising. I can only flow with what he saw of me, quicksilver light and certitude, small-packaged in a manner never distant from completed somethings crafted by hand indicative of no such pause as summer's moderato. It had not before occurred to me to hide fruits that I told myself would spoil if not consumed. Imagining soiled pocket where a tiny stain implanted shadow evidence of something now evolved to worthlessness of past tense. I did not perceive the mathematics of withholding. Felt intuitively thus crafted a small picture of transactions: make to offer, listen/watch the glee even of predators become your own advertisement/evaluation/full- time sun. Evaporate no pool capable of mirroring your glory as machine, as evidence all present of the gleam within a snapshot, silent as a tease instilling all the opposites of stasis. With a strong crease where a craft has been, diminishing to yield first picture that might have, on the surface, cloned original intent, if correspondence equalled trust, if time did not invite manipulations to complete the full equation. LETTERS TO UNFINISHED J. 40. He spoke without coffee (line at Einstein's Bagel's, out the door already in first week post- opening) about systems. In crisp tie, reminisced traditional intaglio, the lack of menacing equality, exacting value-neutral neural nines, rotomontade of cherishing (sit by the window, hatch the round voice wiggling to get into Hollywood and heather field narrations, posse screams). He half elbowed his way out of the frost. We were unmutually not enemies, no cost was exacted, every ritual you name was represented in note taking moderato with a chaperone who sent a wire from God reminding us of our fetality long since expired. It was production season. All the lateral impassives gonged together noose points to retract the weariness of sin and its remaining ointment. Cobbled sweets were limned along formica. We rowed to match old inclinations. Rivers stowed their stasis. Homogeneous intentions ricocheted off pyramids. Someone was hovering above the hasp connecting everglades and promising intentions. Power clothes hung on to voice prints while the pen riled every surface of legality. No glowering came from whipstitch centers to the right and left. We fathomed ourselves apolitical, and he could dream, sit up, take nourishment by his own hand. I was an economy. The ribboned birds sanguined their way to positive alignment with each homonym glassed in by elders who entreated the onlooking shutter scars to make new pictures become whole and ravishing. IN THE SHINING STICKS Prayer comps nature surreptitiously. Calm waters, stilton ease To have anticipated causal weather Always the trapeze of birth's new slumber party In the shining sticks the opposite of Heathrow. Paltry fillings ghost write showcased palms As lightly as extinct shepherds on board Waiting to dismiss the trappings of life's work Among the crop of central nervous systems Showing little EKG one would suppose And branded underneath uncombed Abundance that gleans warmth From even chill wind blistering, The tourists from another century acceding To the bounty that outlives its maker Stranded on a page in history Consistently interpreted off-center For the good of new philosophy. SCULPTURE FULLY DRESSED Pauses leaf through valuables lodged within Clock focus to exude Blunt stoppage of work-the- Optical incisions to alleviate a pressure Bookmarked near supple seeds we have Accumulated heartily and irresponsibly our Behavior lighthousing its way Shoestringing along the budgetary dipstick Surrounding formative instilleries as Structured as a patch of acreage Composed of wire and single crop endorsements Ceasing to elect someone with Pasts writeworthy in the journals that supplant the Creed with empty rosters Coasting along personal breath forming a Sculpture fully dressed compositing full-figured showtime Nothing (noting) Everything's as easy As the quilt (Supplantive of) an offering Midwinter you beneathive Crow-toned habitat exclusive of The each thing silvered, row-prone, Confiscatable as friendship never is (Leave no misimpression) Sacraments wide-eyed snow blow Incessant fever to the side of Sandwiching and we are lost (at cost) Soprano coldsmiths with a romp in mind Still satisfied with what We might cook up, some gilded Penchant for nothing Some aware awakeness Perfectly unmiffed sacrament of butterfly SUNGLASSES THAT WRAP AROUND Sunglasses that wrap around leave no room For inhabitals whose chemistry Elongates the already lengthened pasture The equation of impasse, smokepoint Of river glide's deliberate Retraction of nerve sin Lentily defrosted near clothespin Hummingbirds the crayon of rubato blue Tumult's vituperative wingspin Dismantles the somehow of offspring's New porous mood unfeathering Some gloss along the corner of mood ring With shiver in its past, a father Dramatized by the inchoate Inner cold rendered apparent Only through tiny splinterings of intimacy THE PARENTHETICAL REDUNDANCY OF SECONDARY LOVE He says in public "What a quiz Show host I am" and poses With a prize, kissing the winners First place and last clutching Their homonyms as they return To seats they were assigned. He takes long sips of personality To hone immunity, walks out Into the friendly night to slave Over a swizzle stick, imbue The parenthetical redundancy Of secondary love, replace The quiet core of nothing That intakes his whole attention To distract from harshness of the daylight, And improbability of warmth within the night. PREVIOUSLY NAMED "COLLEGE OF COMMERCE" The only way that he can like me is for me to purchase something that will earn him a commission. All of his rehearsing leads to sinking something in the designated pocket or between goalposts. What flair is for is the advancing, not a fluency that coasts within arrays of intimate exchange. He plays out loud with possibilities of talking me into or out of something. The guestbook in his heart fills when the dancecard overflows. He is indulgent for a purpose so I walk away unfriended, perfectly unwilling to assume imperfect risk not worth flimsy return of acquisition not my own. He sees me as a place to prey without a grotto stone to roll away. The only likely resurrection would exact a cost. A trade of what is wrought from pensive moods under the tutelage of guardians who never learned to schmooze. IMPERVION OF UNDRESSED BRANCHES You would not want to photograph Impervion of undressed branches Stick dark splintered pencils Cropped with liquid frost and dried again The miniature windows of the warlords Feather caps osmotically Tree branches wasp their way into Depictions of the ether Correspondence supple as the ice Per diem landed in a metric park From home off-centered perched Where cameras cannot cull Delicious wingspan and interpretations Full bath of the orneries With taste wide plums breath looking Clouded outer skin unprim Suited for crime winter shivering Against a coat woven apart from snow and southerlies ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 01:06:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: AWP Chronicle, discussions of form Ron--Thanks for your interesting post on "modernist" "closure"---. I was reading a very "academic" (more in the sense of "stiff" than in "difficult") book recently---MURRAY KREIGER'S "The Reopening Of Closure: Organicism Against ITself" and it starts by saying that it IS NOT AN ATTEMPT to make the New Critics hip again by pointing out how they really weren't such CLOSURE OGRES after all...and quotes a lot of their statements and explicates poems to show that to read them reductively as "poems that click shut like a box" is to miss the complex point.... Yet the argument is somewhat disingenuous. For he doesn't talk about Stein or even Riding and focuses on poems like THE EQUILIBRISTS (sic) to drive his point home----which goes to show how rhetoric (Kreiger is very steeped in De Man and Lyotard, etc), especially a rhetoric of rawness, can be used to foster a particular canonical agenda. This of course can work both ways, however. SuanAnne Tanguy (sp.?) mentioned that Jeffers can hold up to a "deconstructive" reading. So can many. By the same token, it would be interesting, and possible (though not necessarily needed---though it could I suppose make a good marketable dissertation) to read Stein and others using the more "old fashioned" terms, etc..... cs ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 03:24:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: NYC Talks Today is the first day of the awesome NYC talks sequence, 5 panels and one reading today, four more panels and two more readings tomorrow, followed by a marathon at Biblio's on Sunday. For those of us who will not be there (I have to go to Florida on business): (1) I hope somebody plans to collect all this material into a book. (2) I hope the correspondents on this list who attend will fill us all in -- in minute detail: Rod Smith, Ben Friedlander, Bill Luoma, Chris Stroffolino, Mark Wallace, Joel Kuszai, and Jordan Davis are among those whom will be presenting and reading. Looking forward to those nice long posts already, Ron ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 04:45:06 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels i've got this sequence-in-progress i'd like to post, several pages worth --- mostly short-line stuff --- wld that be too long for the list? please advise --- wld appreciate help, comments, crit later ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.29.96 4:45:06 am q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wuorinen a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 08:11:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Wyatt nd the sonnet In-Reply-To: <960328184236_500513063@emout10.mail.aol.com> from "Maria Damon" at Mar 28, 96 06:42:36 pm > wyatt is truly amazing, from a weird psychosexual angle, and fun to teach for > that reason.-- > maria d But also for the sheer gristly, sinewy chewiness of the language and the astonishing rhythmic variety. Spenser and Sidney run it thru the neoplatonic mill so that it comes out all heady and mellifluous. It takes Donne to bring it back to ground. And what about Milton? Wow. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 07:19:42 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: AWP Chronicle, discussions of form >wyatt is truly amazing, from a weird psychosexual angle, and fun to teach for >that reason.-- >maria d or, I'd say, psychosexual/religio angle, filled with mythology which sometimes may be seen to be turned on its head, or hind Whoso list to hunt, I know where is an hind . . . ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 08:16:05 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: raw stein & cooked sonnets to go In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 28 Mar 1996 16:50:45 -0500 from On Thu, 28 Mar 1996 16:50:45 -0500 Emily Lloyd said: >sonnet conversation reminds me of that wcwilliams statement: "all sonnets >say the same thing"--referring to the turn, the way all sonnets land on >their feet (even if they have to invent feet at the last minute to do so). If that's the case, then all poems says the same thing. Check out the Princeton Encyc of Poetics on "Sonnet" - there are about 20 different _traditional_ variations, at least. All poems have to land on some kind of footpad. But I would agree that the sonnet and "the little sonnet men" (EA Robinson) have become a symbol of a danger inherent in all form - it exerts its own fascination, can give a false sense of closure & achievement, snaps shut in a facile way. And the weight of tradition is designed to smother (in a fatherly manner). - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 07:34:38 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander >i've got this sequence-in-progress i'd like to post, several pages >worth --- mostly short-line stuff --- wld that be too long for the list? >please advise --- wld appreciate help, comments, crit > >later > >------------------------------------- >christopher daniels 3.29.96 4:45:06 am I can't speak for the list protocols, or for anyone else on the list, but I'd certainly like to see the work. If it is a sequence and you're worried about it being too long, why don't you post it in three or four postings, one a day. But if you want to post it all at once, that seems fine, too. charles ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 08:36:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: AWP Chronicle, discussions of form i think lowell had just read levi strauss when he made that statement about his own poetry in relation to beats, confession, etc.--he didn't coin the phrase...md ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 08:35:54 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: AWP Chronicle, discussions of form In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 28 Mar 1996 19:14:08 -0800 from On Thu, 28 Mar 1996 19:14:08 -0800 Ron Silliman said: >My sense has long been (I've said this before) that when writers in the >19th century finally got to the point of arriving at a genuinely tropic >realism, the "real" world suddenly turned out to be wholly constructed >--i.e., the genuine intellectual/artistic project that was realism (a >collective undertaking on the scale of getting one to the moon) >suddenly turned out to be a phantom -- thus the career of Joyce's >Dubliners leads directly to Ulysses & the Wake, for example (as, say, >Dickens, Norris and James lead straight to Pound). The world in the >first few decades of this century pretty much divided into those who >were actively either trying to find new ways to create that sense of >closure again (Joyce and Eliot being the most persistent), tho it also >meant exploring the ways in which, always, itv seemed not to work Are you saying writers then divided between a kind of Platonic/ transcendental realists (Eliot et al, for whom the material world is a kind of structured illusion with a transcendental reality behind it), and a kind of Nietzschean post-realists (Stein et al, for whom reality is a continuous radically free construction)? > >That modernism which got codified was that which aimed at (or faked) >closure. > Thus closure and "finish" are equated with a belief in transcendental order? >The curious career of John Ashbery -- his idolization by the very >community he so viciously satirizes during his "middle" period -- has I >think a lot to do with the ways in which he mimes a finished surface, >although the way I read him what he really shows -- brilliantly and >repeatedly, is that finish is ultimately a surface effect. Thus Ashbery "succeeded" because he played it both ways -- closure & finish without _philosophical_ closure or belief. It seems like ancient/medieval/Renaissance poetry also played it both ways -- the finish was presented as a conscious trap, the husk -- it was the kernel, the interpretation, the answer to the riddle that was the ultimate "closure". The rough edges are on the _inside_. This was linked with the theological idea that Nature is a riddle of signs to be interpreted; writing is the sign of signs. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:09:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: raw stein & cooked sonnets to go In-Reply-To: from "Henry Gould" at Mar 29, 96 08:16:05 am >sonnet conversation reminds me of that wcwilliams statement: "all sonnets >say the same thing"--referring to the turn, the way all sonnets land on >their feet (even if they have to invent feet at the last minute to do so). As much as I love Williams on this stuff (as great as his ear is) I have to agree with Henry on this. Bill had his axes and he ground them with a vengence. But don't we all. Watch for upcoming volume of John Clarke's sonnets, _In the Analogy, Books 1-7_ from shuffaloff in the next couple of months--a sequence of 250 sonnets which only death managed to stop. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:22:44 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: raw stein & cooked sonnets to go In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:09:44 -0500 from On Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:09:44 -0500 Michael Boughn said: >Watch for upcoming volume of John Clarke's sonnets, _In the Analogy, >Books 1-7_ from shuffaloff in the next couple of months--a sequence of >250 sonnets which only death managed to stop. But Willis Barnstone's got him beat - just published "501 Sonnets". But Edwin Honig was talking last night about a book titled "M" - standing for "1000 Sonnets". Wish I could remember the author... Little sonnet men make BIG sequences. But my question is - where's the Colonel's husky in all this? Here's a short poem, the kernel of which is: "Either way, you're finished." OLD-TIMEY ELEGY Lord, we will write and write. Your August ripens. A radio keeps the beat. The writing is what happens, while merged with the wheat a single strand of hair stays hidden. - Henry ["Finish my Day"] Gould ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:44:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: Re: raw stein & cooked sonnets to go At 08:16 AM 3/29/96 EST, Henry Gould wrote: >On Thu, 28 Mar 1996 16:50:45 -0500 Emily Lloyd said: >>sonnet conversation reminds me of that wcwilliams statement: "all sonnets >>say the same thing"--referring to the turn, the way all sonnets land on >>their feet (even if they have to invent feet at the last minute to do so). > >If that's the case, then all poems says the same thing. Check out the >Princeton Encyc of Poetics on "Sonnet" - there are about 20 different >_traditional_ variations, at least. All poems have to land on some >kind of footpad. Eek! The Princeton! That book's good for buildin' yer biceps, maybe...but I'm not sure you're understanding what I'm (only because Williams isn't here to) saying...I LIKE sonnets, not trying to insult them...but...see...they've got that rising action/climax/falling action thing going on...of course there are variations...I'm talking about the strict sonnet forms, i.e. Petrarch, Shakespe, and that other guy...where a turn is necessary, and where the turn is supposed to occur at a certain predetermined place. Which means you can pick up any traditional sonnet & know there's gonna be a twist...Keats is going to find Chapman's Homer, Nature is going to prick out the friend for women's pleasure...etc. This doesn't mean they have to be banal (although I've referred to them in the past as "aggressively tidy")...the pleasure, for me, in reading traditional sonnets is watching how skillfully the turn is executed...kind of like anticipating the zinger in a hitchcock film. I should say, tho, that I don't think that "traditional" forms necessarily mean "patriarchal poetry" or conservativism...while nobody here may particularly enjoy their work, Rafael Campo, Marilyn Hacker, & Molly Peacock (among others) have used traditional forms (& I mean "strictly," not berrymanning around) as containers for subversive (it's all relative in Ploughshares et al) content. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Emily Lloyd emilyl@erols.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 08:48:23 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: AWP Chronicle, discussions of form according to jed rasula (in _the american poetry wax museum_, 233-234) lowell was borrowing from virginia woolf when he distinguished between "a cooked and a raw" poetry in his acceptance speech for the national book award... rasula indicates that woolf had used these terms to distinguish her own "cooked" work from joyce's presumably "raw" _ulysses_... lowell one the nba in 1960, so his acceptance speech would have been in '61... it wouldn't surprise me if others had picked up on woolf's distinctions before then... and not to sound, uhm, ambiguous, but i just love it when a given work oscillates from the raw to the cooked... joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 10:53:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Re: Discussions of form: the sonnet >On Wed, 27 Mar 1996 13:42:23 -0600 Michelle Roberts said: >> Sonnets, for instance, describe and assume an orderly >>universe, and orderly and relatively uncontested social order. >To Which Hank Gould Replies on Thu, 28 Mar 1996: > >Really? Seems to me the benchmark in sonnets in english, Shakespeare's, >celebrate, mourn, ironize, a breakdown in relations between >women/men. They show a social order based on "games people play" >and how these games self-destruct. They start with these avuncular >advisements of an elderly gent to a handsome young man to "be fruitful >and multiply" & disintegrate from there. The only standard still standing >at the end is "love" - but love with a shady meaning. > In this, the sonnet, rather than being example of form that "over orders," of form as constraint, as necessary _finish_ (as in _done_), is instead perhaps one of the most neat (I'll admit to the tidiness of fourteen lines) and beautiful expressions of chaos. Too easy to see the line count, the rhyme scheme of a sonnet and think: orderly universe. When in fact what a sonnet is all about is its volta, the turn of its own self-destruction, (as Hank Gould well points out). _That_ is the action of a sonnet. _That_ is what makes a sonnet. Point being, if the poem is _good_, then it behaves and excels at multiple levels (Hank's point of the day previous), and "finish" or form need not be a constraint any more than "unfinish" be a detriment. Come on, simplicity and straight-jacketing are not imposed by form (or even by Formalists), they are only the result of the poet unwilling or unable to both embrace and challenge a form (which is to say challenge the poem, no matter its form). If you aim to show the complexity of 'experimental poetry' then you will have to allow the complexity of "formal poetry," too. Gary. ......................................................................... .. Gary Hawkins ::::::: Olympia, Washington .. ghawkins@halcyon.com ::::: "It's the Water." ......................................:::................................ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:17:44 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Contra Simic (back from Detroit) In-Reply-To: <199603290706.CAA23489@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Actually, they DO put critics in jail, often -- we could start a list with Gramsci and C.L.R. James, both of whom compounded their offenses by writing more criticism IN jail -- and on another note -- while I suppose I may not be the best test case, one example of deconstructive readings causing somebody actually to read the poetry (as if that were the true test of criticism??? don't most critics assume at least a nodding acquaintance with the text they are writing about?), was my coming to Ponge (who I had not previously heard about) through Derrida's book -- that's a fact, jacques I know of many critics who are not poets, but I've never met a poet who didn't at one time or another write criticism,,, Remember Charles's great title this year, something like THE REVENGE OF THE POET/CRITIC (or was it "return"?) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:54:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: poetry sightings at poetry city Mar. 28 Because it was a sort of last exhibition game before the poetry season begins (today at 3 p.m., Poetry vs. Talks at NYU, Silverstein Lounge & Jurow Lecture Hall, 101 Main Bldg, NE corner of Wash Sq Park--starting pitchers: Rob Fitterman (0-0), Stacy Doris (0-0)--don't you love statistics at the start of the year) the reading at Poetry City last night would be described. Poets Rod Smith and Loss Glazier arrived just when they said they would, at 6:15. A workshop with June Jordan's "Poetry for the People" students and students of Mark Statman's "Teachers & Writers" class at the New School wound up just as Rod set his bag down. People milled in starting with graciously on-time arrivals Julie Patton, Lisa Jarnot, Lee Ann Brown, Chris Funkhouser, Tim Davis, Jen Levine, and Stephen Rodefer. Arriving soon after were Charles Bernstein, Kenny Goldsmith, and a stunned Bruce Andrews, who said, "It's true, it is a nice space." Pretzels, popcorn, crackers, brie, seltzer, cola, and quite a bit of red wine were served. The bottle of white wine on ice has lasted three weeks without being uncorked. Rod stepped out to have a smoke, and a few minutes after he came back, we got started. As I told Rob Fitterman, "I think we're going to get ready now." I'll make again the offer I made last night: ten Ron Silliman books for $75.. (_What_, _Tjanting_, _Jones_, _Lit_, _Toner_, _Manifest_, _Paradise_, _The New Sentence_, _N/O_, and _Demo to Ink_... act quickly!) Loss Glazier, star of the _EPC_, read first to an audience of about 25. Loss read from his Meow book, _The Parts_, and segued into a sequence about Windows 95. He had an extremely affable and gentle style, translating the idioms of "the other platform" and playing on ambiguities of pronunciation and meaning in "the more arcane computer journals." Loss's poems cracked me up. We had a brief intermission. Anna Malmude introduced Rod Smith, calling everyone's attention to the publications on the table in the back of the room. At this point, I'd like to make another offer to poetics readers: Maria Damon's _The Dark End of the Street_ (UMP, 1994) for $15 ppd, and Walter Lew's anthology _Premonitions: the Kaya Anthology of New Asian North American Poetry_ for $20 ppd.. OR both books for $30 ppd.. Rod Smith, whose new book _In Memory of My Theories_ is a "must", opened with an intense reading of "Postmodern Long Poem". Rod's commitment to straddling. Whoops. Rod's commitment to operating on the boundaries (and deep in the territories) of sense and nonsense really paid off for us, the stunned listeners, in a platonic dialogue among among others John Cage, Ted Berrigan, Derrida, Morton Feldman, Kathy Acker, Mark Wallace. Rod rocked. Then we stood around and talked. Bill Luoma and Brian Stefans were there, Tim Davis was wearing an amazing purple coat, Anna and Jen Levine went to Anna's dad's house, Kim Rosenfield and Rob Fitterman smiled, said good night, Douglass Rothschild went down the street to visit his brother who is leaving shortly for Amsterdam, Lisa had to go, Carol Conroy was cleaning up and I was and Stephen Rodefer helped. I tried to tell him not to, and who was I to tell him not to, we just met, everybody headed off to the Cedar, I caught up a little later, they were eating salads. Bill, his friend Brian, and Chris Funkhouser were down at one end of the table. Talked for a while to Chris about Woods Hole, _The Telephone Book_ and _Crack Wars_, and then about the poetry and technology panel we'll both be on tomorrow, last panel of the whole deal. Bill and Brian took off, I swung around the table, at the other end were Lee Ann, Rod, Loss, and Charles. Stephen came around the side and sat next to Chris. We talked for a while about the list. Was David Ayre real. Yes David Ayre is real. See you all at the talks, Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:26:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: william elliott vidaver Subject: Question regarding "Spicer in Context" Conference 1986 & Does anyone on this list know if the papers delivered at the "Spicer in Context" Conference of 1986 have been assembled into a publication? On a related topic, does anyone here know of any visual artists who have attempted to translate aspects of Spicer's poetics over into the production of what might be called picture-books? (One of the aspects I have in mind is serial and narrative structure, the _book_ becoming the unit of composition, instead of the individual poem, painting, or collage Aaron Vidaver c/o wvidaver@direct.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 08:09:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: apologies to the list My apologies to the list for an error in forwarding something that I thought I'd sent backchannel, but apparently the lateness of the hour triggered an unwanted reflex. Sorry! Sheila Murphy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 12:29:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: NYC Talks i second ron's request for a detailed report, i have to stay in albany this weekend on finances. was about to say "happy talking!" but somehow i get the feeling that most of the folk around here don't need much encouragement....;-) eryque ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 14:58:25 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: raw stein & cooked sonnets to go In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:44:51 -0500 from On Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:44:51 -0500 Emily Lloyd said: >Eek! The Princeton! That book's good for buildin' yer biceps, maybe...but you can't get everything from chapbooks and the internet... >I'm not sure you're understanding what I'm (only because Williams isn't here >to) saying...I LIKE sonnets, not trying to insult them...but...see...they've >got that rising action/climax/falling action thing going on...of course >there are variations...I'm talking about the strict sonnet forms, i.e. >Petrarch, Shakespe, and that other guy...where a turn is necessary, and >where the turn is supposed to occur at a certain predetermined place. Point taken... but if the turns in Shakey are diff from the ones in Petrarchan... and if the turns are really an art of making a logical argument dance... I give up, this is another fruitless issue. Williams just sounds defensive, trying to put down something he didn't want to try to master. But to master this kind of slow turning shaping of an argument seems like a kind of dialogic pseudo-conversational art that's diffused and de-fused later...maybe by modern print culture? - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 12:36:05 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michelle Roberts Subject: Re: AWP Chronicle, discussions of form In-Reply-To: <199603281732.LAA00708@freedom.mtn.org> thank you for the lesson, all. i suppose i've let my personal aversions to some forms keep me from knowing their history. this makes me uncomfortable, which is good, and i'll use more caution in future. M. Meaghan Roberts | ... in our interpreted world... Ph.D. Candidate - Ethics and Literature | The University of Texas at Dallas | Meaghan@UTDALLAS.EDU | ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 12:18:26 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michelle Roberts Subject: Re: AWP Chronicle, discussions of form In-Reply-To: > On Wed, 27 Mar 1996 15:47:47 PST Jerry Rothenberg said: > > > >ps. A "formalism" that's blind (or deaf) to the work of (let's say) Jackson > >Mac Low wouldn't know order from chaos or would restrict it to the trivia > >of ABAB or its variations. But that discussion is -- & always has been -- a > >dead end. > > Agreed that such restrictions would trivialize ABAB or its variations; > but if you say ABAB or its variations are in themselves trivial, I > must say with much rawness that you are either a literary critic or > a dictator! - Henry Gould > Oh my, isn't that a bit harsh? You have a choice here gentlemen the facism of The Trivia of ABAB of the facism of Everything Goes AT all Cost, including one's right to personal taste. Cool heads, folks. If what's clashing here is your various aesthetics, please enlighten me with a discussion; if what's clashing is ego, go gently. M. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 11:44:38 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michelle Roberts Subject: Re: AWP Chronicle, discussions of form In-Reply-To: <199603272024.OAA11697@freedom.mtn.org> Meaghan Roberts | ... in our interpreted world... Ph.D. Candidate - Ethics and Literature | The University of Texas at Dallas | Meaghan@UTDALLAS.EDU | On Wed, 27 Mar 1996, Charles Alexander wrote: > I do think we have to talk about each artist, although no work exists > without a context, and many times it makes sense to speak of more than one > artist at a time and to try to find out how different ones speak to/with > each other. This can make for movements, but it doesn't always. It certainly > does not make for one united "avant garde" movement; neither is there one > united mainstream out from which the avant garde erupts. So I agree and > disagree with you. I think there is a danger in speaking about "one poet, > painter, sculpture" at a time to then go on to speak of one work at a time > and get back into a sort of new critical approach which removes the work of > art from the world, and I hope that's not what we want. Well, yes, I did a lousy job of expressing myself. I'm not at all interested in returning to new criticism (except as a way to begin to read, but not the goal of reading). It's just that the phrase "avant garde" gets tossed around rather irresponsibly by "its" detractors. That's what I think moves toward specificity (within context, yes) can help to balance. > > Everything I have heard about the New Formalist movement makes me want to be > far away from it, although I wonder about what you report as Turner's sense > that New Formalism thinks the Enlightenment was right and we got it wrong > after that. Just that I believe that any school of thought that truly thinks > of the Enlightenment as enlightened in some singular way is reducing that > period's complexity. After all, it not only gave us Samuel Johnson's Vanity > of Human Wishes, but also Christopher Smart's Song to David and Jubilate > Agno, and Laurence Sterne's Tristram Shandy. And even a lot of reading in > Johnson can cause one to question the supposed Reason of this Age. Yes. I think that Turner's worry is that "we" have developed ourselves into an "avant garde" culture (it's a prhase people like to use here, I'm not sure what they mean by it yet) and that's what he sees his project as "curing." I'll need to review the book if you want more specifics; I read it a year ago, and it's sort of gelled into a few vague statements in my head now. Thanks for the adjustment, M. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 10:37:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Barry MacSweeney In-Reply-To: <960327220445_100344.2546_EHQ88-1@CompuServe.COM> Let me add my three hurrays to the resurfacing of Barry Mac Sweeney -- who was one of the first young English poets (with Allen Fisher & Dick Miller) who Eric Mottram introduced me to when I moved to London in 1972. His work certainly showed what a serious political yet lyrical voice could achieve. BLACK TORCH (published in 78 by Allen Fisher's _Spanner Editions- -- & maybe still in print? (Ric/Ken, any of you know?)) is a superb engagement with the Tyneside coalminer strikes. Also, his essay on Chatterton (_Elegy for January_) did, for me, in relation to Chatterton what Howe's book did years later in relation to Dickinson. Great to have him back! -- Pierre ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Form fascinates when one no longer has the force Dept. of English | to understand force from within itself. That SUNY Albany | is, to create." -- Jacques Derrida Albany NY 12222 | tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | "Poetry is the promise of a language." email: | -- Friedrich Holderlin joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 17:01:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matthew Gary Kirschenbaum Subject: Re: Question regarding "Spicer in Context" Conference 1986 & In-Reply-To: <96Mar29.093658-0800pdt.205425-29789+1@orb.direct.ca> from "william elliott vidaver" at Mar 29, 96 09:26:13 am > On a related topic, does anyone here know of any visual artists who have > attempted to translate aspects of Spicer's poetics over into the production > of what might be called picture-books? (One of the aspects I have in mind is > serial and narrative structure, the _book_ becoming the unit of composition, > instead of the individual poem, painting, or collage If you're not already familiar with them, I'd suggest looking at some of Johanna Drucker's books: _The Wor(l)d Made Flesh_, _Simulant Portrait_, _Otherspace: Martian Ty/opography_, and also perhaps some of her criticism, _The Visible Word_ for example. (This is a small sampling indeed, as her bibliography includes some 50 original works.) I posted an inquiry about JD here a few months ago, and received a number of helpful replies, which I'd be happy to forward to you. --Matt ================================================================= Matthew G. Kirschenbaum University of Virginia mgk3k@virginia.edu Department of English http://faraday.clas.virginia.edu/~mgk3k Electronic Text Center ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 19:42:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matthew Gary Kirschenbaum Subject: correction In-Reply-To: <199603292201.RAA211474@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU> from "Matthew Gary Kirschenbaum" at Mar 29, 96 05:01:07 pm Oops. I see I've conflated the title of Drucker's _The Word Made Flesh_ with another of her books, _The History of the/my Wor(l)d_. ================================================================= Matthew G. Kirschenbaum University of Virginia mgk3k@virginia.edu Department of English http://faraday.clas.virginia.edu/~mgk3k Electronic Text Center ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 08:53:15 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: AWP Chronicle, discussions of form 'one the nba' yeah----raw... but anyway, it's a curious pun// joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 20:55:10 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: Barry MacSweeney /Pickard ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.29.96 8:55:10 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wuorinen a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 20:59:55 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: author of M >But Edwin Honig was talking last night about a book titled "M" - >standing for "1000 Sonnets". Wish I could remember the author... i don't know if this has been answered yet, but M was written by merril moore, i believe, who was a lawyer or a physician and was a friend of marianne moore and elizabeth bishop but for god's sake don't quote me on it chris ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.29.96 8:59:55 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wuorinen a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 21:09:52 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: Re: Barry MacSweeney speaking of political poets, does anyone know what tom pickard's up to these days? is he living in poland w/ his wife or? will commence posting bits of me sequence in a little later ps sorry abt the blank posting --- slip of the mouse ------------------------------------- christopher daniels 3.29.96 9:09:53 pm q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wuorinen a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 18:40:09 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Subject: Re: raw stein & cooked sonnets to go In-Reply-To: On Fri, 29 Mar 1996, Henry Gould wrote Williams > just sounds defensive, trying to put down something he didn't want to > try to master. > Nah, Williams doesn't sound defensive when he says all sonnets say the same thing, he sounds ideological, since he is trying to make the point that there is something else, more interesting and worthwhile, for American poets to do (at that point in time) than to replay received forms. There are interesting things that can be done with received form and Williams was not blind to them -- he like Lowell's early work, for its energy, despite its Ransom Tate aesthetic -- but he had alot of people to convince. In any case, he wrote sonnets now and then himself, there is even one (Sonnet in search of an Author) in the Pictures from Breughel collection. Now, is being ideological the same as being defensive? Interesting question. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 07:46:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Barry MacSweeney In-Reply-To: On Fri, 29 Mar 1996, chris daniels wrote: > speaking of political poets, does anyone know what tom > pickard's up to these days? is he living in poland w/ his > wife or? > Chris, I haven't seen them in a few years now, but as far as I know Tom& Joanna are still based inLondon with stays in Poland. Last I heard Tom was mainly involved with television documentaries. But I may be out of date on all this -- Pierre ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 04:51:16 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Spicer Several pieces from the 1986 conference were collected in Acts 6: A Book of Correspondences for Jack Spicer (mine, Michael Davidson's, Michael Palmer's, Robin Blaser's) Spicer's White Rabbit books were quite distinct in their presentation. The pages of each section of Book of Magazine Verse roughly mimed the paper of the publication for which the poems were "intended" (the cover was, as I recall -- I don't have the book anymore -- a deep brown image stolen or parodied from the cover of Poetry). Language used the image of the cover of that lingusitics magazine (not to be confused with the Andrews/Bernstein affair of the late 70s) that had Spicer's own article (his one "professional" publication) in it, with the book title and author's name in large red letters supper imposed. I never owned Heads of the Town up to the Aether but recall seeing it (before I realized how important it was to own everything Spicer ever wrote). There was a period of nearly a decade after his death when most of the books were out of print but rumors always abounded that somebody -- Gino Clay Sky, I think -- had a box of Heads of the Town somewhere, if only you could find him. They weren't artist's books in the usual sense, but they did present the book as the unit. That's why, no doubt, the Collected is not the Collected Poems, but the Collected Books.... And, no, Henry, I don't think Eliot and Stein were worrying about their relation to transcendtalism or Neitzsche. At least Stein wasn't. Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 09:20:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: new york city, a bag It's not too late to see the rest of the New York City Poetry Talks. What you've missed: a friendly exchange between Jeff Derksen and Steve Evans on "the consitutive outside"; Martine Bellen saying "Look at someone like Bruce Andrews," Bruce sitting four rows back; Rodrigo Toscano suggesting that writing does not undermine ideology; Kristin Prevallet saying she no longer knows what is meant by the word "language"; Tim Davis analogically polling the audience about poetry and community; Buck Davis declaring that the second the community stops giving him what he needs, he's out of there; several of us seconding Buck; Andrew Levy describing his first experiences of writing (and the pleasure he found in them); Andrew Levy contrasting I forget whom with Vermeer, and observing that Vermeer is good for human dignity; Chris Stroffolino, Douglass Rothschild, Steven Farmer, Will Howe and Rod Smith (and me) heckling, often instructively; Kim Lyons on the change in the poetry community in New York in the early 80s; Sianne Ngai on Oppen and Stevens; Kim Rosenfield reading a piece that seemed to play on the phrase "inca lab oration"; Joe Elliot on the development of the crusades from the wanderings of itinerant Irish priests; and a stunning performance by Michael Basinski and family. Not to mention the two whole roomfuls of people I didn't manage to get out of my heat-smothered little zone to hear. Rob Fitterman, viva Rob Fitterman! It's at 101 Main Bldg, NYU, which is at the NE corner of washington square park. I'd tell you more, but I have to go write my talk. Love, Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 09:25:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: poetry sightings at poetry city Mar. 28 thanks for the fulsome report, jordan, that's what i call a leisurely and pleasured recap of what sounds like a wonderfllll evening. whish i coulda...and by the way, folks,walter's and my book for 30$? a steal, both worth it... and what were you all saying about woods hole? bests, maria d ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 09:25:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Question regarding "Spicer in Context" Conference 1986 & i think some of those papers appeared in, was it ironwood, or boundary 2, something like that, a special spicer issue? mdavidson wd know. i loved that conference --it's what inspired me to write about spicer in what became my booky-poo; i'd loved his poetry since larry fagin introduced me to it in 1977, but it never crossed my mind to write about it...until that magic moment in SF when i saw michael davidson, john granger, and george stanley (i was least impressed by the latter, who was incoherent) talk about what for me had been a somewhat secret passion, as bob kaufman had been, or at least private if not secret. maria d ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 09:36:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: author of M merrill moore was a psychiatrist, one of whose clients was robert lowell as a kid! it' rumored that moore also had an affair w/ lowell's mother, and that the two were planning --later, after Cal got famous -to collaborate on a biography of him. what a nightmare...poor little rich boy.... maria d ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 10:39:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: Question regarding "Spicer in Context" Conference 1986 & In-Reply-To: <96Mar29.093658-0800pdt.205425-29789+1@orb.direct.ca> from "william elliott vidaver" at Mar 29, 96 09:26:13 am > On a related topic, does anyone here know of any visual artists who have > attempted to translate aspects of Spicer's poetics over into the production > of what might be called picture-books? (One of the aspects I have in mind is > serial and narrative structure, the _book_ becoming the unit of composition, > instead of the individual poem, painting, or collage > > Aaron Vidaver c/o > wvidaver@direct.ca I have a held a book by Fran Herndon consisting of collages she worked on with Spicer. They're marvelous. I can't remember the name of the book now. Perhaps Kevin can help. If not, I'm sure it could be tracked down. As visual evocations of the spirit of Spicer's work, they're impeccable. Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 10:58:03 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Albert Cook Subject: Providence Small Press Book Fair Sunday April 14 1-5PM Alumnae Hall 194 Meeting Street Brown University Providen ce. Admission Free. Refreshments. Bartlett Society's Small Press Book Fair. Fin e Printing, Poetry, Handmade bindings Artists Books Scholarly Publications Ephe mera. SPEAKER: Rosmarie Waldrop, "35 Years on the Burning Deck." Adastra Press, Ampersand Press, Barbazange, Bu ll Thistle Press, Burning Deck Press, Chicory Blue Press, Copper Beach Press, H affenreffer Museum of Anthropology, Haybarn Press, Innerer Klang, Italica Press, Elizabeth Coombs Leslie Paper Conservator, John Carter Brown Library, Little R iver Press, M&S Press, Oat City Press, Paradigm Press, Farmer's Museum, Rhode I sland School of Design, Sea Dog Press, Showcase for Collage, Singular Speech Pr ess, The Umbrella Press, Ziggurat Press, Palabra Press, and others. Information 401-331-0659. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 09:38:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: gristle is as (?) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 08:11:41 -0500 Fr>Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 08:11:41 -0500 >From: Michael Boughn >Subject: Wyatt nd the sonnet > >> wyatt is truly amazing, from a weird psychosexual angle, and fun to teach for >> that reason.-- >> maria d > >But also for the sheer gristly, sinewy chewiness of the language and >the astonishing rhythmic variety. Spenser and Sidney run it thru the >neoplatonic mill so that it comes out all heady and mellifluous. It >takes Donne to bring it back to ground. And what about Milton? Wow. > >Mike Mike-- I always thought so, but remember the guy with whom I did my 16 & 17 C poetry, Seymour Kleinberg, saying that those qualities may not have been there for a conotemporary audience: re off-rhyme in, esp, Donne, say, but also re rhythmic syncopations, that they may not have been heard that way esp. when the words were set. it would be sad to think so (Blackburn: "would that it were so / would that it were not so") but how not chew on THIS?: (from [faulty?] memory which has at least likely garbled lineation): for this / both the year's and the day's deep midnight is" Kenneth Koch used to say that reading "Song of Myself," esp section 2, made you feel like you had a mouthful of rocks.... meanwhile him who disobeys me disobeys? best Tenney ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 11:07:06 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Question regarding "Spicer in Context" Conference 1986 & >On a related topic, does anyone here know of any visual artists who have >attempted to translate aspects of Spicer's poetics over into the production >of what might be called picture-books? (One of the aspects I have in mind is >serial and narrative structure, the _book_ becoming the unit of composition, >instead of the individual poem, painting, or collage > >Aaron Vidaver c/o >wvidaver@direct.ca > This IS what book artists do. Sometimes I think the work is more unknown than I suspect, perhaps because it is significantly outside the conventional art markets and decidedly outside most literary practice. See work by any number of artists, including some Chax Press books, books published by Granary Books by various artists, Claire Van Vliet, Walter Hamady, Katherine Kuehn, Penny McElroy, Susan King, Mare Blocker, Tim Ely, Phil Gallo, Karen Wirth, and I could go on and on and on. For an introduction, see Artists' Books, ed. Joan Lyons, Visual Studies Workshop. More recently, see Talking the Boundless Book, ed. by me, Minnesota Center for Book Arts. And see particularly Johanna Drucker's The Century of Artist's Books, pub. Granary Books. Enjoy searching. charles alexander ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 11:16:42 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Question regarding "Spicer in Context" Conference 1986 & >> On a related topic, does anyone here know of any visual artists who have >> attempted to translate aspects of Spicer's poetics over into the production >> of what might be called picture-books? (One of the aspects I have in mind is >> serial and narrative structure, the _book_ becoming the unit of composition, >> instead of the individual poem, painting, or collage > >If you're not already familiar with them, I'd suggest looking at >some of Johanna Drucker's books: _The Wor(l)d Made Flesh_, >_Simulant Portrait_, _Otherspace: Martian Ty/opography_, and >also perhaps some of her criticism, _The Visible Word_ for >example. (This is a small sampling indeed, as her bibliography >includes some 50 original works.) Yes indeed. And I'd also suggest a strong dose of Karl Young's work, both his own books and his publishing of others, for years through Membrane Press and more recently in Light & Dust Books. You could write Light & Dust at 7112 27th Ave., Kenosha, WI 53143 for a catalogue and to inquire about its web site as well. A recent visual poetry catalogue for an exhibition in Milwaukee (is Bob Harrison still on this list -- he can give details?) began with a foreword by Drucker and ended with an afterword by Karl Young. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 09:27:21 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chris daniels Subject: pickard/sonnets/my sequence --- On Sat, 30 Mar 1996 07:46:44 -0500 Pierre Joris wrote: >On Fri, 29 Mar 1996, chris daniels wrote: > >> speaking of political poets, does anyone know what tom >> pickard's up to these days? is he living in poland w/ his >> wife or? >> > Chris, I haven't seen them in a few years now, but as far as I know Tom& >Joanna are still based inLondon with stays in Poland. Last I heard Tom >was mainly involved with television documentaries. But I may be out of >date on all this -- Pierre 1. pierre i'm not surprised abt the documentaries at all, having read The Jarrow Marches --- pickard was always highly politicized. but i am a little disappointed, i guess --- Hero Dust was important to me when i was in my early twenties --- still think it's a terrific book --- i wasn't too crazy abt Custom & Exile --- tho there are some beauties in there --- and have been keeping my eye out for pickard ever since --- anyway, let's hope he's content w/ what he's doing now, whatever it may be 2. i've been extremely interested in the sonnet discussion, tho have had very little to say abt it --- but i wrote A LOT of sonnets when i was a kid --- really bad sonnets --- a couple of hundred, all trashed a long time ago --- it's a great form, one of the greatest, does its dialectic work compactly i'd like to mention cummings' "sometimes/ in)spring" and gm hopkins' Windhover as examples of outrageously beautiful sonnets wch strain the form w/o "breaking" it and cecco anghiolieri's "S'il fosse fuoco" as a particulary nasty bit of sonneteering 3. speaking of form and volti, here's the first few pages from the sequence i've mentioned. i'd GREATLY appreciate comments, criticism, etc, --- also, please tell me if it's too much to post at once nb: the text has lost it's formatting --- LET THIS URN SPEAK shld be in the shape of --- you guessed it the sequence is called --- for now, anyway --- NICHTS MACHT FREI (...AND PISSE NOT UPON THEIR ASHES) i hope you enjoy reading it later chris ****************************************** Saint Lt Vire will wind in other shadows unborn through the bright ways tremble and the old mind ghost-forsaken sink into its havoc --- Samuel Beckett * LET THIS URN THEN SPEAK WHEREIN SHE LIES IN PART NO MORE O THE SUN COMES UP IN THE MORNING AND SENDS OUR CHILDREN OFF TO SCHOOL AND SENDS US OFF TO DO OUR JOBS AND SENDS US OFF TO CHANGE THE WORLD THE SUN COMES UP IN THE MORNING AND WILL WE NEVER AWAKE SINCE NO AMOUNT OF FINGERWORK MAY REDEEM THE BARREN MAESTRO COME ALL YE LATTERDAY ZHDANOVS CHOIR YOUR TENDENZ-POESIE NOR MOST INTRICATE CENOTAPH SUBLIMATE THE SMELL OF DEATH SLAMMED THROUGH DISASTERLESS IMMENSITIES SOON TO BE RAVELLED IN DECAY FAR MORE SWEET THAN YOUR THRICE GONGORIC BLOOD DRY SOIL BLOW AWAY WORLD FORGET YOUR BARE BONES DANCE MUTE MONSTERS TO A SILENT COMMONSONG SELAH ELASELAHELAS ELAHELASELA HELAS ELAHELASELASELA HELASELAHELASELAH SELAH SELAH SELAH SELAH SELAH SELAH SELAH HELAS SELAH SELAH HELAS HELAS SELAH HELAS HELAS HELAS HELAS HELAS HELAS HELAS * Cede To Fog every no thing s some * Black wing slice shitten meatglut azraelstrom ventrex come take this shadow home to vorterus abaddon your grinding bloodash kingdom come shadow come take this shadow up * You remember there i was back then that time you know in the pit with the others there how well you know funnel of ash wind and shit with the ones not me in that bloody cone yet me the flapping above us alike yet seperate in glacial grinding unformed bones to imma- nence you know well huge shrieking black mantling silence over all you ever knew in that cloacal vortex protoclasmic surge and buckle in ourhailin- through-us-omnidirectional-wind wing brush each eye blind staring out from filthy ice how only too well you know that howling nowhere compass-net perseity o immane immanation imbanning mendacity your predation untrammeled in black muck its mire-sucking quag mocks our ludicrous tropical bathos with vertical hurl ****************************************************** ------------------------------------ christopher daniels 3.30.96 8:29:05 am q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they said anything goes?" --- charles wuorinen a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." --- george clinton snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa voice: 510.524.5972 http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 09:46:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: NYU Talks In-Reply-To: <199603300703.CAA05218@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> PLEASE keep those reports coming -- Sounds great -- and somebody might pass a word to whoever organized this at NYU to stop being so damned insular and let a few people outside their immediate circles of acquaintance know ahead of time when they're planning such an event -- I left the East before it happened, not knowing it was to happen, and coulda hung for at least part of it -- Other big poetry wing dings happening soon back there at least have told us they are to occur -- The call for papers & readings for a few of them has been attracting much attention around the bulletin board where I posted it here in L.A. -- Rod -- Congrats. on the book! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 17:40:52 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chami Wickremasinghe Subject: NEW POETRY PAGE Santa Rosa Soundings http://www.chamisplace.com/art/srs/ Interested in a new approach to the exciting world of poetry? Visit Santa Rosa Soundings at Chami's Place... all categories, all styles, news and more in a whole new kind of magazine! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 16:44:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Quartermain Subject: Re: author of M It might be worth remembering, too, that William Carlos Williams wrote a foreword to Merrill Moore's 1938 book SONNETS FROM NEW DIRECTIONS; parts of this were later reprinted on the last pages (pages 1016-1017) of Moore's M: ONE THOUSAND AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL SONNETS (Harcourt Brace 1938). The Foreword is titled "Merrill Moore's Sonnets: Present total, steadily mounting, 50,000." I don't know what he said about the sonnet there, since I haven't read it. Moore wrote roughly (i.e. approximately!) five sonnets a day from his eighteenth year on. Peter >>But Edwin Honig was talking last night about a book titled "M" - >>standing for "1000 Sonnets". Wish I could remember the author... > >i don't know if this has been answered yet, but M was written >by merril moore, i believe, who was a lawyer or a physician >and was a friend of marianne moore and elizabeth bishop but >for god's sake don't quote me on it > >chris >------------------------------------- >christopher daniels 3.29.96 8:59:55 pm > >q: "how can you be revolutionary when 20 years ago they > said anything goes?" > --- charles wuorinen > >a: "free yr mind and yr ass will follow." > > --- george clinton > >snail: 1474b 7th st berkeley ca 94710 usa >voice: 510.524.5972 >http://users.lanminds.com/~kunos/ (constructing) > > + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Peter Quartermain 128 East 23rd Avenue Vancouver B.C. Canada V5V 1X2 Voice and fax: 604 876 8061 + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 16:44:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Quartermain Subject: Tom Pickard Tom Pickard was until very recently running a quite successful but surely shoestring TV documentary production company (he did the writing, mainly, so far as I know) in the north of England -- did a brilliant documentary some years back on the English poet Roy Fisher, plus a number of other things. Joanna Voight is mainly working out of London, or was, last I heard. . There is also his wonderful documentary book about the last of the Northeastern shipyards, WE MAKE SHIPS (I think I've got the title right) published about 1990 by was it Andre Deutsch? Ric Caddel will know, are you there Ric? Peter + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Peter Quartermain 128 East 23rd Avenue Vancouver B.C. Canada V5V 1X2 Voice and fax: 604 876 8061 + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 13:52:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen L Burt Subject: M, irony, Niedecker, "the equilibrists" In-Reply-To: <01I2VHV0OBQQHTW71O@cnsvax.albany.edu> I've been enjoying reading this list a lot and haven't posted to it before, but I thought I'd answer a few specific questions and ask a few more. *** _M_: Merrill Moore was a successful psychiatrist in Boston whose famous patients included Robert Lowell. He had some sort of project to write as many sonnets as he could before dying, or maybe simply to write a thousand sonnets; he would interrupt consultations to write sonnets, and kept a notepad with him in his car so he could write sonnets at traffic lights, etc. There's an anecdote in Elizabeth Bishop's letters about him, I forget where or what but it's funny. Speaking of New England eccentrics, I bet some of the people on this list would enjoy John Wheelwright: I heard Ashbery talk about him several years ago and looked him up, and I didn't think he was that great, but he's certainly disjunctive, experimental, singular and fun. *** "The Equilibrists": the people we group together now as "New Critics" certainly _didn't_ insist that all poems be pinned down like butterflies, with one demonstrable meaning and total snap-shut closure. At least not all of them did. That Ransom poem somebody mentioned a few days ago is-- in part-- about _preferring_ a certain amount of indeterminacy (in a reading or in a romance), and justifying that preference by explaining it after the fact as a desire for unresolved "tension" or "balance." Ransom was terrifyingly sexist, not open-minded enough in other ways, and so on, but he and his friends were thinking seriously about many of the same issues we think about now. (So were Hazlitt and De Quincey, I think, but don't quote me on that. Yet.) *** Irony, cooked, etc.: Is irony "inherently" more cooked than its opposite (sincerity? univocality?)? Whether or not it is, we expect works that appear "cooked" and "finished" in other ways to include some irony (or anyway I do). (We have been taught to do so.)This expectation opens up a whole range of effects to be achieved by (1) writing heavily ironic, deeply ambiguous poems that _sound_ "raw," or by (2) writing poems that are apparently "cooked" and "finished" aurally but completely univocal and sincere emotionally, in a way that makes their sincerity a suprise. Successful example of (1): (some of) Stevie Smith, and possibly Veronica Forrest-Thomson. Successful example of (2): (some of) early Creeley. But such general terms can't take us very far, and I should probably stop right there. (People who care where Lowell got the phrase "The Raw and the Cooked" might think about the famous Philip Rahv essay "Paleface and Redskin," which applied a slightly-similar binary division to American fiction, and which Lowell and all his friends would certainly have read. And our library catalog places Levi-Strauss's _Cru et le Cuit_ in 1964, after Lowell's talk-- is it really that late, or have I been deceived by reprint dates?) *** Finally, I heard a rumour that the reason I've never seen a _Collected Poems of Lorine Niedecker_ for sale is that they were stored in a warehouse in North Carolina and the warehouse flooded. Terrible irony, if true ("My Life by Water"...!) Does anyone know whether the poems that weren't in _The Granite Pail_ will ever be made available again (or whether they're available now)? *** Back to the cave, steve ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 01:15:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joshua N Schuster Subject: Re: Question regarding "Spicer in Context" Conference 1986 & In-Reply-To: <199603301707.LAA11413@freedom.mtn.org> from "Charles Alexander" at Mar 30, 96 11:07:06 am Charles, While everyone is waiting for updates on the NYC conference, myself included, could you expand some on the current state of book art practice. I agree book art tends to slide behind the couch pieces of both art and poetry markets. Partly, perhaps, because the books tend to be too expensive for casual purchase but not a rare enough commodity for museum/gallery space. I'm curious what sort of genres or "schools" or margins are out there and who is a particular publisher, besides Granary and Chax. I"d like to know more about the list of names you posted and how their work relates to previous movements such as lettrism and even fluxus. I enjoy reading Johanna Drucker's critical work but sometimes feel she name drops to a supersatured extent which makes a sort of i.d. salad, particularly with regard to the current "scene" or industry. It's perhaps odd that the langpo's mostly kept astray from the book of the thing, with noteable exceptions Grenier and McCaffery. I've been trying to research assemblings, multimedia "books", sort of, but can find very little critical material. What little of such current assemblagers I hear of, like Blast, I devour. Does anyone know of any international journals which cover the states of practice? Also what does _Talking the Boundless Book_ feature? Willing to share more? So any info on current book art and assemblaging practice would be of help. If not, still eagerly awaiting the results of the talk series. bests, Joshua Charles Alexander wrote: > > This IS what book artists do. Sometimes I think the work is more unknown > than I suspect, perhaps because it is significantly outside the conventional > art markets and decidedly outside most literary practice. See work by any > number of artists, including some Chax Press books, books published by > Granary Books by various artists, Claire Van Vliet, Walter Hamady, Katherine > Kuehn, Penny McElroy, Susan King, Mare Blocker, Tim Ely, Phil Gallo, Karen > Wirth, and I could go on and on and on. For an introduction, see Artists' > Books, ed. Joan Lyons, Visual Studies Workshop. More recently, see Talking > the Boundless Book, ed. by me, Minnesota Center for Book Arts. And see > particularly Johanna Drucker's The Century of Artist's Books, pub. Granary > Books. > > Enjoy searching. > > charles alexander > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 08:41:48 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ward Tietz <100723.3166@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: assemblings and multi-media books On March 31, Joshua Shuster wrote, "I'm curious what sort of genres or "schools" or margins are out there and who is a particular publisher, besides Granary and Chax. I'd like to know more about the list of names you (Charles Alexander) posted and how their work relates to previous movements such as lettrism and even Fluxus." "I've been trying to research assembling, multimedia 'books,' sort of, but can find very little critical material...Does anyone know of any international journals which cover the states of practice." From what I know about European practice, this sort of work can get even more difficult to track since it also overlaps with other practices such as mail-art, which while on the wane in some countries, is still going strong in others. In this context Fluxus influence and tradition are still quite strong. I know, and have worked with, a few people who were in the "flux-like" group Ecart here in Geneva which was started by John Armleder in the 1970s. One of them, Guenther Ruch went on with a mail-art magazine in the 1980s called Clinch and published, and still publishes, assembling-style books through his press, Out Press (315 Rte. de Peney / CH-1242 Geneva-Peney / Switzerland). Another person who continues in this tradition is Juergen O. Olbrich who through the NO INSTITUTE (Nederfelderstr. 35 / Kassel, D-34128 / Germany) publishes assembling-style books in limited editions of 150. This style of work tends to be cruder and more ad-hoc than most of the work Charles Alexander described, but it is able to investigate the idea of assembly more fully as a result. Juan Agius, who is based in Geneva, is one of the few book sellers who specializes in this sort of work. He publishes a catalog about three times a year. His address is P.O. Box 5243 / CH-1211 Geneva 11 / Switzerland. There is also Gates of Heck, the catalog of artist books and other related material, put out by Katharine Gates and Davi Det Hompson. The last one I have is from late 1994, so there may be a more recent one. Their address is 5301 Brook Rd., Richmond, VA 23227, USA. Ward Tietz Rte. de St. Cergue, 48a CH-1260 Nyon Switzerland ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 10:51:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Thomas M. Orange" Subject: Queneau's sonnet machine In-Reply-To: <199603300703.CAA05218@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> > On Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:09:44 -0500 Michael Boughn said: > > >Watch for upcoming volume of John Clarke's sonnets, _In the Analogy, > >Books 1-7_ from shuffaloff in the next couple of months--a sequence of > >250 sonnets which only death managed to stop. > and Henry Gould replied: > > But Willis Barnstone's got him beat - just published "501 Sonnets". > But Edwin Honig was talking last night about a book titled "M" - > standing for "1000 Sonnets". Wish I could remember the author... > Little sonnet men make BIG sequences. Raymond Queneau probably has them all beat with his _Cent mille millards de poemes_ (1961). Ten sonnets printed onto thick card stock, with each page die-cut into line-by-line strips for continual rearrangement. Any chance that Gallimard will ever actually allow this text to get marked up into HTML and stored on the WWW so that it can truly run like the well-oiled sonnet machine that it wants to be? And in a bilingual edition maybe.... Tom Orange London, Ontario ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 11:02:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: pickard/sonnets/my sequence cool! md ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 11:04:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: USOP event report Last night a lovely event was held chez moi. a potluck, sunset-over-the-ocean-watching, United States of Poetry video watching party. about 12-15 of us, lots of different kinds of folks, let's see: Julie Chang came down from Boston College, Beth Swanson Goldberg late of Miami U-Ohio, Michelle the wedding photographer, Mark the research engineer from New Zealand and his friend Julie, Dave the computer modeler from the Woods Hole Oceanographic (or is it the marine bio lab?), carol the yoga teacher, Susie the reiki therapist and home-schooler, Ron the photojournalist, patti the social worker, debbie the mother, spike and isabel the kids, herb the businessman-turned oceanographic lab technician, alll brought food and lay on the floor and/or sofas with down comforters and watched...poetry! to eat there were figs and strawberries, chicken stew, two roasted chickens, vegetarian rice salad w/ raisins and avocado, wheatballs in tomato sauce, organic greens salad w/ balsamic vinaigrette, an exquisite middle eastern platter made by beth's husband the world class chef, organic apple pie and ice cream, pesto pizza, girl scout cookies (chocolate mint, they went fast), chips and salsa, wonderful coffee with whipping cream (doubling as stuff to put on strawberries), spinach-and-cheese dumplings, and other feasty foods. everyone loved the videos, there was a flurry of excitement when the 800 number came on the screen to order the video set and the book. I had the book too and that made the rounds dduring and after the "screening". the teachers (julie, beth, and susie were excited about showing this to students, college students and home-schoolees), there were many comments about "I'm not a poetry person, but this is great!" and "why didn't they show us this kind of stuff in English classes?" big faves were maggie estep in big capital letters (her lines were quoted long into the night), john wright, tracie morris, pearl cleage and quincy troupe, the i hate james joyce guy, pedro pietri, and, to coin a phraase, others too numerous to mention. there was also a fair amount of excitement cuz bob holman was known to some of the long-time woods hole dwellers; i showed the "spoken word unplugged" mtv tape afterwards (for the maggie estep diehard contingent) and there was bob, doing his rap piece, folks that had known him many years ago were delighted. we decided to have a writing night sometime before i leave, why oh why didn't i do this earlier, o well that's the way it wuz meant to be i guess... it was really great seeing people get turned on to poetry, many of whom had not liked poetry before , cuz they found it "depressing." in the middle of the whole thing, my tax lady called (saturday night???) and sed i'd be getting a "substantial" return. so, what could be better. an evening with food, sunshine, sunset, a comet (which everyone went out to watch during breaks in the video), poetry, and a promise of buckeroonies. today's another beautiful day, promises to be high 50s and sunny, there's fishing boats and a large research vessel off the beach, and what am i doing inside glued to my repetitive-strain-injury-causing machine here? guess i just wanted to tell everyone about the evening. Thanks, nuyopoman, for all inspiring poetry activism. maria d ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 11:52:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: M, irony, Niedecker, "the equilibrists" In-Reply-To: from "Stephen L Burt" at Mar 30, 96 01:52:11 pm > Finally, I heard a rumour that the reason I've never seen a _Collected > Poems of Lorine Niedecker_ for sale is that they were stored in a > warehouse in North Carolina and the warehouse flooded. Terrible irony, > if true ("My Life by Water"...!) Does anyone know whether the poems that > weren't in _The Granite Pail_ will ever be made available again (or > whether they're available now)? I recently heard from Peter Quartermain that Jenny Penberthy has been preparing a a new edition of the Collected which rectifies editorial errors in previous editions. Should be out shortly. Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 12:09:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: gristle is as (?) In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19960330093950.50f75854@mail.azstarnet.com> from "Tenney Nathanson" at Mar 30, 96 09:38:34 am > Mike-- > > I always thought so, but remember the guy with whom I did my 16 & 17 C > poetry, Seymour Kleinberg, saying that those qualities may not have been > there for a conotemporary audience: re off-rhyme in, esp, Donne, say, but > also re rhythmic syncopations, that they may not have been heard that way > esp. when the words were set. Tenney: What was K's point? That Elizabethans couldn't hear the difference? That it wasn't a difference within the structures that governed sonal significations? It's a fascinating idea, but Donne's moves, in terms of sound, structure and content seem so clearly organized in response to that earlier material. Is K's position part of that skeptical scientizing "intentional fallacy" business? How about this from Wyatt: Why then, Alas, did it not kepe it right, Retorning to lepe into the the fire, And where it was at wysshe it could not remain? Such mockes of dremes they torne to dedly pain. Would K argue that all 16th and 17th c. readers and listeners would hear this as iambic pentameter? But poets would always know the difference, wouldn't they, even if others couldn't hear? Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 13:00:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tardos Mac Low Subject: NYC poetry talks Comments: To: jdavis@panix.com Dear Jordan, Please give my regrets to those at the poetry talks since I cannot stop working right now on things that have to be done by 27 April for our concert at Roulette. The sesssions sound great. Jackson Mac Low tarmac@nyc.pipeline.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 10:41:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Queneau's sonnet machine Thomas Orange asks (about Queneau's Cent mille millards de poemes): >Any chance that Gallimard will ever actually allow this text to get >marked up into HTML and stored on the WWW so that it can truly run like the >well-oiled sonnet machine that it wants to be? And in a bilingual >edition maybe.... Here's the URL for a monolingual version, not by Galliamard. Bests, Herb Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 07:46:31 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: raw stein & cooked sonnets to go is the problem of The Sonnet, that satisfying formal protocols is no guarantee of a poesis of any use or interest or value? The Haiku? The Blues? oft revisited sites of similar argument? My spell checker does not recognise poesis. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 16:41:07 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: assemblings and multi-media books >This style of work tends to >be cruder and more ad-hoc than most of the work Charles Alexander described, but >it is able to investigate the idea of assembly more fully as a result. I really like what Ward Tietz says here about investigating the idea of assembly. Could you say more about this, Ward? Do you mean to suggest that, because it isn't consciously a fine craft seeking technical seamlessness, that more ad-hoc work thereby exhibits its assembly more openly, and experiments with it more avidly? If so, I guess I'd think this is true in comparison with more traditional book arts in general, but again it's the exceptions to the seamless book which I tend to find more interesting, even if they are sometimes on the margins of the less ad-hoc field of work. charles ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 16:40:56 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: assemblings and multi-media books Thanks, Ward Tietz, for pointing out the connections of book arts to mail art, as well as for pointing to the work of Davi Det Hompson and others. I think if as many people as possible join this conversation it will be helpful, as I know I can not catalogue all the varieties of work out there. Part of the difficult, as well as part of the richness, is that book art comes from many sources. One source is a tradition of fine printing revived at the end of the 19th Century by William Morris and his Kelmscott Press, but also in somewhat different artistic visions by Doves Press and Ashendene Press at close to the same time. Compared to Morris's Kelmscott books, Doves books are elegant but spare, the typographer may be said in some sense to disappear. Beatrice Warde, noted type historian, later made a metaphor of the typographer's art as a fine clear wine goblet, enabling the glow of the wine to shine through but not calling undue attention to itself. What has come down, however, as this tradition has evolved, ranges from similar spare print on fine white papers, to bookmakers such as Walter Hamady whose books certainly are beautiful, but who makes wide use of colors, textures, collage images, and more. And Walter is one of the few in this field who has consistently worked with contemporary writers, publishing books from the mid-1960's to the present by writers such as George Oppen, Robert Creeley, Robert Duncan, Diane Wakoski, and many more. His books tend to work as sumptuous but not disappearing homes for the texts they present. Another noted fine printer of the last fifty years is Harry Duncan (last I heard he was still alive, probably in his late 70's if not older), whose typographical/book design sense is much more subdued. Both of these have produced a lot of students (I was one of Hamady's), but not many of these students necessarily remain that close to the work of their teachers. But this is only one source of book arts, which I take to include fine print, livres d'artiste, artist's books, conceptual books, sculptural works which refer to the book form, some but not all photographic books, some but not all mail art, and some but not all concrete/visual poetry. And I'm sure I've missed something. I'm not sure there was much sense of the term book arts before about the mid-1970's, when the Center for Book Arts formed in New York. Richard Minsky is the founder (he has a web site with a gallery of his works and I don't know the URL but if you have NetScape you cand o a NetSearch for Minsky and find it; you can also hit the chax site which is very modest at http://www.bookarts.org/chax/ for varius links). Minsky comes from a traditional and fine bookbinding background, but he has made several altered books (where an existing book has been altered in some way by an artist to form something altogether different, perhaps the most famous example of which is Tom Phillips's A Humument). Minsky comes out of the fine craft tradition but he also makes these sculptural books. My guess is also that he's quite aware of Fluxus. I'm just meandering here and I'm going to keep doing so for a while, then stop. Since Johanna Drucker's work has come up, I'll mention that she began setting and printing type letterpress and her first few books were of her texts in various kinds of type, both with and without illustration, some works where in essence the type becomes the message as well as the medium. But in recent years she has also produced work she designed in an offset print studio, and she has produced work she designed on computer which then was printed by an artists' book printer. She is married to such an offset printer, Brad Freeman, who has also produced several visual artist's books (generally with little or no text) in his own name, which are quite marvelous. He has also curated an exhibition, which first was mounted by Granary Books in New York, of offset-printed artists' books from across the United States. Perhaps one benefit of this exhibition was wider exposure to at least two artists who were photographers and printers making books before people ever started talking about the book arts, specifically Joe Ruther in Florida (who is one of Brad's teacher/mentors) and Todd Walker in Tucson, Arizona. Both of these artists produce very personal, irreverent combinations of text/image in book form. Both are worth attending to. In her The Century of Artist's Books Johanna Drucker noted Chax as one of a very few presses trying to use the form and structure of the book in combination with contemporary innovative literary texts. That is what Chax (in its handmade editions, not in its trade paperbacks) tries to do, and I think there are some others who have done that, particularly The Salient Seedling Press of Katherine Kuehn in Albuquerque, and several of the works Granary Books has published. Granary is different in that it is directed not by an artist but by Steve Clay, who chooses projects and commissions artists to make books. These collaborations are always interesting and nearly always defy my expectations that commissioned books aren't going to be as interesting as books which begin with the artists. It's a kind of magic Steve has. Those books are quite diverse, ranging from a mostly painted book by Susan Bee with snippets of text in it, to work by John Cage in which the book finds its form in and around the finely printed text. Chax books tend to be low in the fine press price spectrum, at generally under $100 (a couple more than that). Granary prices have ranged from under $100 to more than $1,000. So it's true that one is not likely to find these books in many bookstores, but also not in many art galleries. A lot of the market is developed over years and continued by word of mouth, by travels to rare book librarians and curators, collections, a few dealers, etc. There are various rifts in the book arts world. I have a constant argument against most "fine presses" which I think are entirely unimaginative in texts they choose to print, and often entirely predictable in the book forms they issue. But I can think of lots of exceptions. And I love mail art and visual poetry and irreverent bookmakers. But when I had one such, Steve Kranz, a young bookmaker and writer of note, come to Minnesota Center for Book Arts and lead a class on making books from everyday materials, I actually received a letter later from one student who was decidedly put off by Kranz's lack of care for such things as proper grain direction in paper. So, in this long post which hasn't had much structure I'll just close by saying that though the sources include Fluxus & mail art & livres d'artiste by such as Matisse & Delaunay, and the experimental typography and publications of Futurists and Dadaists, and the fine print history, it's also true that, partly due to the increased presence of binding and papermaking and other book arts classes in centers like Center for Book Arts in New York and Minnesota Center for Book Arts, but also in community arts programs and some colleges, that a lot of the participants in the book arts come to it from a crafts-learning perspective and don't know a lot about the history. And I find it unfortunate that a lot don't care about that history and about its dynamic possibilities in the present. But there are some who do. I'm glad to chip in with more as people want to continue this thread. charles ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 16:52:54 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Question regarding "Spicer in Context" Conference 1986 & Responding to Joshua's question about Talking the Boundless Book. It is a compilation of talks given on panels during the 1994 symposium at Minnesota Center for Book Arts titled Art & Language: Re-Reading the Boundless Book -- there was a corresponding exhibition of that name which traveled to a few sites around the country. Since they are essentially talks, there is a distinct informality to these pieces, particularly as some of the presenters are artists not very accustomed to giving such talks. There's also an extremely wide breadth to the kinds of people included in the symposium and their interests, which was the strength of the symposium; but it's also true that because of this breadth, there is a corresponding lack of depth. People were primarily presenting their work and/or ideas, and not working with others on panels to build a conversation/dialogue. Still, it was one of the more interesting gatherings in the book arts in recent years. For one overview, you might see Johanna Drucker's essay in JAB (Journal of Artist's Books, second issue), which reports on this and two other symposia or panels in the book arts. I'll give the table of contents. The book should be in at least a few bookstores, but it can also be ordered from Minnesota Center for Book Arts (MCBA), 24 North Third Street, Minneapolis, MN 55401; 612-338-3634. MCBA is much in transition right now, without a director for 7 months now (I was the last one), and recently has lost other staff as well. Recent news is a considered move to Minneapolis College of Art & Design. But they should still be taking care of book sales. Table of Contents Introduction by Charles Alexander Hermeneutics and the Book Arts Dick Higgins Embrace & Incite: The Book is a World Steven Clay A Critical Metalanguage for the Book as an Art Form Johanna Drucker The Economics of the Small Press: Poetry Publishing Charles Bernstein Social Book Building Amos Paul Kennedy, Jr. Design Elements in Nude Formalism and Fool's Gold Susan Bee Hyakunin Isshu: Between Power and Play, An Anthology in Translation Toshi Ishihara and Linda Reinfeld Images from Pictured Knowledge Katherine Kuehn Nexus Press: A View from the Loading Dock Jo Anne Paschall Navigating My Electronic Books Colette Gaiter It Really IS A Book Alison Knowles The Book and the Body: Generation and Re-Generation Byron Clercx JAB Talk Brad Freeman Re-Reading the Boundless Book Karen Wirth The book was published by Minnesota Center for Book Arts in 1995. Its price is $15.95. charles ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 19:16:51 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Wood Subject: Poetry Video Hello all... I'm doing research into poetry video. I've already contacted a number of people in Chicago, SF and the NE, but I'm still looking for additional material. This would include all the usual primary and secondary suspects. Of course, even a name or an idea would be welcome... thanks, Tim Wood in space no one can hear you scream in Dallas no one cares... ______________________________________________________________________________ Check out the Voices new poetry website at http://www.connect.net/twood/ the Word, Dallas' monthly arts guide: http://www/connect.net/twood/word.html poetry & video poetry ---- graphic design & database development ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 18:57:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tosh berman Subject: Re: Poetry Video >Hello all... > >I'm doing research into poetry video. I've already contacted a number of >people in Chicago, SF and the NE, but I'm still looking for additional >material. This would include all the usual primary and secondary suspects. >Of course, even a name or an idea would be welcome... > >thanks, >Tim Wood > > in space no one can hear you scream > in Dallas no one cares... >______________________________________________________________________________ >Check out the Voices new poetry website at http://www.connect.net/twood/ >the Word, Dallas' monthly arts guide: http://www/connect.net/twood/word.html > poetry & video poetry ---- graphic design & database development I am sorry, I don't see any reason why there should be "poetry video." Poetry was always the first art that propelled the arts. And now, it seems that poetry (at least on a commercial level) is following the other arts. If one is looking for video poetry I suggest the cinema of Cocteau, Bunuel, Sam Fuller, Kenneth Anger, Louis Feuillade, Fritz Lang, Ed Wood Jr., Ozu, and perhaps the master of poetic cinema - Buster Keaton. "Literal" videos on poetry is boring, and I might add for all its good intentions & good to interesting poets who participated in - The United States of Poetry - it is still a big bore. And really I don't care if it makes people who are not interested in poetry all of sudden become interested in poetry - it is still a bore. Sorry to be so harsh, but it is just a thought among other thoughts. tosh ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 20:28:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: raw stein & cooked sonnets to go In-Reply-To: <60D93542FB@ccnov2.auckland.ac.nz> Betwixt and between the cooked and the raw I feel that poetry exists on the edge between the raw and the cooked, rather than being one or the other. It is voice in David Appelbaum's sense ("Voice that escapes the written or spoken page is deeply organic and fraught with the problem of human suffering."). It is Susan Griffin's plum ("The plum has been my lover. And I have known the plum. Letting the plum into the mind of my body, I will always have the taste of sweetness in my memory.") before it is paled "In texts and words which will grow more pale the further away they are placed from life." \tom