========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 21:48:44 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Comments: To: british-poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Sub Voicive Poetry web site has moved from its Yahoo (sic) site to http://www2.crosswinds.net/members/~subvoicivepoetry/ the transfer of files is not quite complete, but the latest programme info is there, and the documentation of past readings that has already been published. Introductions etc still have to be uploaded. The index is as it was last March with some of the entries indexed not uploaded. The process should be finalised within days. . There is a what's new page now to guide you to new sections. At the moment it is being used to log the progress of the upload of the *updated and *improved site - progress is ahead of the report The svp telinco address is defunct. The geocities mainstream address may or may not function but you are asked not to use it. Direct any svp to editor@svp@freehosting.net or to this account Thank you ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 20:07:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: Litmag mania / collect them all! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Attention friends and their friends: Through the month of August, a full set of the first four issues of Kenning is available for $25.00, postage paid. After I've sold out of these through this offer, these issues will be out of print permanently. The set comes in the format normally exculsive to subscribers: loose-leaf in a hand-printed portfolio. NOTE: This is the only way to acquire these issues short of having been an active subscriber all along. Although, you may still receive issue 4 by becoming an active subscriber. Kenning's 5th issue will be available as of August 1st, if all goes well. I urge you to have a look at the Kenning website for further information. You may also feel free to email me with any questions regarding this offer. With your support, Kenning will continue to flourish and grow. Thanks: Patrick F. Durgin http://www.avalon.net/~kenning kenning@avalon.net Vol. 1, No. 1 "Premier Issue" Spring 1998 Poetry: Mark Wallace, Daniel Zimmerman, John Kinsella, Juliana Spahr, Summi Kaipa, Michael Angelo Tata, John Lowther, Ryan Whyte, Stephen Ellis. 22pps. Vol. 1, No. 2 Summer 1998 Poetry: A.L. Nielsen, Emily Wilson, John M. Bennett, Keston Sutherland, Ron Silliman, Alfred Arteaga, Andrew Levy, Katy Lederer, Alice Notley, Taylor Brady, Liz Waldner, Paul Silvia, Jen Hofer, Heather Fuller and Rod Smith, Spencer Selby. Poetics: Alice Notley. 54pps. Vol. 1, No. 3 Autumn/Winter 1998-9 Poetry: Daniel Bouchard, Standard Schaefer, Sheila Murphy, Charles Bernstein, John Lowther, Hoa Nguyen, Peter Ganick, Mark DuCharme, Lisa Jarnot, Ida Yoshinaga, Mark Prejsnar, Andrew Levy, Gustaf Sobin, Ray DiPalma. Non fiction: Susan Smith Nash. Poetics: John Taggart, Tina Darragh. Interview: Nathaniel Mackey. Book reviews: Jordan Davis' Poem on a Train, Yedda Morrison's The Marriage of the Well-Built Head. 71pps. Vol. 2, No. 1 "Issue #4" Spring 1999 Poetry: Elizabeth Treadwell, Mark Prejsnar, Bill Luoma, Chelsey Minnis, Lous Cabri, Patrick Pritchett, Sheila Murphy, Mac Wellman, Kathy Lou Schultz, Bill Freind, Lisa Samuels, Leslie Scalapino, Anselm Berrigan, Eileen Myles. Non fiction: Dale Smith. Book reviews: Rachel Blau DuPlessis' Draft 32: Renga, Joan Retallack's How To Do Things With Words. 69pps. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 22:48:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Magee Subject: Re: burnt epistle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit D E A R A N G E L O F F I R E "There are no compassionate, harmless ways to remake oneself. We murder ourselves so we can rebirth ourselves in our dreams." Vietnamese woman living in Shepherd's Bush, London. Quoted by Judith Barry. Who Are These Coming to the Sacrifice? The print has gone back, then. Many were missing at the theater. Would they have seen what I saw? We see what they say, or we say they can't see. After the second showing, I went away, like Alma, the Indian Princess, empty inside. It's the spectacle of her immolation, when I had thought the closure of the film would balance out in the exchange in passing to the Patrona outside the house where she, Alma, as complex a sign for the category of Woman as one might hope to find, has just given to Sacramento, the High Priest of his mother's solitary sect, the experience of his sex. He cuts his wrists. There is adoration in those eyes whose owner is about to extinguish them of their light. Which is the greater sin under the sign system, the church no one here appears to be able to labor their way out of: incest or suicide? But is the movie, then, about Religion? The patchwork canvas rags that comprise the Big Top of the Circo Fantasia and the no less haphazard colors of the Theater Truck. The relation of Religion to Art. Catalogue note: "In 1529, Giovanni Battist della Palla once more paid for Andrea to paint. This time the artist, anxious to recover his former patron's favor, exerted himself to the utmost, and produced his Sacrifice of Abraham, a picture far finer in expression than any other work of his later years. But the siege intervened . . ." You can hardly think of Alma, or her father, Renato the Clown, or the Patrona and her son, as characters at all in a fiction more or less awkwardly called "social-realist." The child, Noah, exists as some kind of rope or umbilical cord that keeps pulling Alma back to her childhood in his jester's outfit he wears to call the people to the theater and the Book of Forgiveness on which their names may be signed. The Redemptress (as she's called by the street kids straight out of that early film of Bunuel's) drives through the Barrios like an inveterate survivor of the ages, the Mystery Play. Angel del Fuego is about the martyrdom of Fictive Being. There is no hope, and the dead do not rise from their graves. In Dana Totenberg's second film, historical materialism arrives on the wing of Mortification and Miscarriage. \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / Note: Totenberg or Rotenberg? Does anyone know if she's made any more films? The Judith Barry quote I associate with an exhibition at the Cleveland Art Museum when I first moved to Cleveland in the fall of 1996, where there was a multi-media installation of hers in a show that included an installation by Kevin Evans, whose Whitney shipping crate continues to grace the cooking area of my loft; Evans' installation was prison-guard uniforms on clotheslines, something to do with the prison industry and black working-class neighborhoods. The Cleveland Art Museum was one of five U.S. museums to host the recent Diego Rivera exhibit, "Art and Revolution." Andrea del Sarto's "Sacrifice" is part of the its permanent collection. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 23:12:13 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Subject: Re: burnt epistles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George Bowering is right. It was the 1970s that the Italians were said to be burning mail. It was 1976 when I heard of it. Really, that's not so long ago. I am relieved to know that it was more than a rumour. It was on TV & must be true. Burning poetry is less likely to make it to the TV news, unless it's being done by a cute animal -- even if the police do suspect arson. Tony Green >>tony green wrote; >> >>"...there were rumours (just rumours) not long ago of Italian mail service >>getting so overloaded that tons of mail was burned to speed delivery up a >>bit." > >I saw a TV news programme with footage of such a thing being done in the >late seventies in Italy. It involved little forklifts and bulldozers. At >the time I thought: why cant this procedure be instituted for poetry? > > > > >George Bowering. > , > > >fax: 1-604-266-9000 > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 09:17:16 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Krebs Subject: Re: uncompromising, but corrugated, position MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain with refrigerator literature one needs to be careful there is always the under lying need for preservation you see it now more regularly it being summer time and all On Tue, 22 Jun 1999 19:14:14 +0000, Wendy Kramer wrote: > Spotted a refrigerator box today (with fridge inside, otherwise i > would've carted it off) whose printed side panel read > > > BACK > > > LAY ON BACK ONLY > > > > this as opposed to FRONT (i walked 'round to check the other side) & > in my mind > it argued (& agitated) not only terms & correctness of sexual position > but questions of grammar as well. "lie" or "lay" ? i can never > keep it straight. "front" "back" or > "volte face" ? one sighs in consternation. _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 19:22:47 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: john coletti Subject: Re: Whalen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed This review got my goat when I first read it a month or so ago on Jacket. It is ambivalent, prodding, & terribly uninspired. How was this review (which appears to be the same one from the Chronicle)put together? Every complement is countered by a neutral or negative bit of language. Weighted down by "the patient reader," "certain obsessive themes," "finicky," "generalizing," "odd," and so forth, this review appears to be trying to pass off as a positive one while seeding itself with vague & underlying resentment. Clark describes Whalen's writing as "disarmingly self-deflating comedy" without giving any sort of an enthused explanation as to why this very truth can bring about some of the best comic writing around. In the end, one gets the feeling that Tom Clark just dashed this one off to the presses. If he disliked the book then so be it. Say so. If he really felt that this "self-deprecating hipster-bodhissatva, wine glass and joint at the ready...remains perhaps the finest comic creation of the Beat era." then he sure made a lousy, shlocky stab at doing so. This selection was, in my opinion, one of the very best pieces of literature I came across this year. Whalen's writing deserves a better review than the limp & inchoate one that the Chronicle served up. I mean, count the words with typically negative connotations, and then read the review again. Inititally, I thought it was a positive review. Feeling somehow uneasy, I read it again. I don't think I would have picked the book up if I had simply read this review at face value without having already known of Whalen's writing and of this book specifically. For some, this will be a true shame. John Coletti >From: Dale Smith >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Whalen >Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 22:40:28 GMT > >If anyone is really interested in reading this "downer" review of Philip >Whalen by Tom Clark, you can browse: > > > >www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1999/06/27/RV105857.DTL. > > > >Tom's review in Jacket, or a 1996 review in the SF Chronicle of Whalen's >Canoeing Up Cabarga Creek might seem more "generous and positive" to those >used to book reviews reading like PR blurbs rather than critical >engagements >with poetry. > > > > > > > >> > >>Steve Vincent is being diplomatic in not saying that "the Chronicle >>critic" > >>is Tom Clark (whom I presume > >>must think it to have been a warm, generous and positive review of his > >>one-time neighbor on the > >>mesa). Whalen's counter-careerism certainly has been a factor, and Steve's > >>right about Rexroth and > >>Dahlen also. But I'd add Bob Grenier and even Joanne Kyger to that list. >>All > >>folks who deserve to be > >>read closely (and widely). > >> > >>Ron > >> > >> > >>"There was a downer review of Whalen's new Penquin collection (with intro >>by > >>Leslie Scalapino) in yesterday's San Francisco Sunday Chronicle Book >>Review. > >>I am not sure what the Chronicle critic was trying to perform other than >>he > >>somehow missed and hardly gave a clue to the rich and various >>brilliance(s) > >>of Whalen's work. > >>While this work has fortunately managed to get published over the years, > >>Whalen remains a wry counter-careerist which unfortunately has kept the > >>poems > >>from larger public assessment, celebration and/or review. Maybe obscurity >>is > >>part of the character structure of some West coast giants. Kenneth Rexroth > >>(who was very public) had a paranoid streak that caused him to slash every > >>critic who crossed the horizon, leaving him dismissed from any real > >>consideration in the modernist Canon. Retrieval efforts to recognize his > >>work > >>remain ongoing. Then there is Beverly Dahlen in hermetic, apparently quite > >>non-careerist retreat. Lyn Hejinian (gratefully) (among a few others) for > >>example, seems to have figured it out - keeping her generous critical mind > >>and creative work at the public forefront - east, middle and west. > >>Well, I diverged from my original intent. I'm pissed off at the Chron > >>review. > >>Which is to ask, has anyone read a good, substantial review of Whalen's >>new > >>Collected? > >>Cheers, > >>Stephen Vincent" > > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 10:58:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Deborah M Mix Subject: Experimental Poetry & History (call for papers) Content-Type: text/plain Experimental American Poetry: Reforming History NEMLA Convention, 7-8 April 2000, Buffalo, NY Abstracts due by 15 September How does innovative technique make possible innovative history? How does experiment help uncover the mechanisms of concealment and revelation in language and historical narrative? This panel will bring together investigations of the ways in which formal experimentation (particularly, though not limited to, the experimentation associated with Language Poetry) confronts history and the generic markers of historical narrative. Formal innovation often calls attention to the mechanisms of language, to the ways language both conceals and reveals, coerces and invokes; such attentiveness to the shapes and functions of language likewise revises the operations, structures, and boundaries of history. We seek papers that consider the consequences of, as well as the motives for, confrontations between experimental writing and history. How, for example, do the paradigm shifts demanded by these writings revise governing notions of tradition, of lineage, of what is "private," "personal," or "public"? Given that the convention is to take place in Buffalo, we are particularly insterested in papers that address the work of SUNY-Buffalo writers, such as Susan Howe and Charles Bernstein. However, papers on other authors will be equally welcome. Questions concerning this panel may be addressed via email to panel co-chairs Deborah Mix and/or Elizabeth Savage . We prefer to receive abstracts by regular mail or fax; copies of proposals should be submitted to both of us no later than 15 September. Deborah Mix Elizabeth Savage Dept. of American Thought and Language Dept. of English Michigan State University Virginia Commonwealth Univ. 235 Bessey Hall 900 Park Ave. Box 842005 E. Lansing, MI 48824-1033 Richmond, VA 23284-2005 phone: 517/355-2400 phone: 804/828-1331 fax: 517/355-5250 fax: 804/828-2171 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:33:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Waber Subject: Riding the Meridian Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For immediate release: Riding the Meridian -- Nationality or Not http://www.heelstone.com/meridian Guest edited by Peter Howard As words zip 'round the world on newsgroups, bulletin boards and mailing lists, all of us find certain people with whom we feel an enhanced form of kinship. Their ability to express themselves in writing, the nuances of their 'virtual' personalities, their sense of humor (or humour, depending on what form of English you're typing in), stylistic tastes, all add to and amplify one's own sense of enjoyment in being a writer in the late twentieth century. The person you're communicating with may be from another country as easily as they can be from down the street. For me, one of these people is the very talented and well-spoken poet, panellist, and columnist, Peter Howard, who lives in Cambridge, England. As guest editor for Riding the Meridian, Howard has assembled an international group of writers to help shed light on the impact the Internet is having on communication and national/regional writing and identity. From Andre Mangeot's take on how easily the English language can subvert the spelling of his name, to Clinton V du Plessis's striking imagery about the conflict in South Africa, to Red Slider's tribute to Sam Grolmes on the occasion of receiving his translations of Ryuichi Tamura--where the character of the written language itself informs the meat of the poem, to Michael Rothenberg's imagined cyberchat between a group of French speakers and a would-be American tourist, Howard's choice of writers shows--here with pathos, there with wit--the incredible diversity at work within the Internet literary community. And to quote him: "Oooh, but I'm assuming everyone speaks some variety of English, aren't I? Naughty of me. The difference it makes to those who don't (in a pseudo-space where most do) is an interesting question in itself." Expect some enlightenment on that, as well as a short tour of Flash Fiction by Viktor Car, Alex Keegan, and Sheila Murphy, and many other surprises, as well. It's been an honor to work with Peter on this issue; if anyone was metaphorically best suited to fully inaugurate Riding the Meridian, it was he. * Net Premieres of new poetry link=the Poetry by Jeffrey Alfier, miekal and, Robert James Berry, Jane C. Brandon, Linda Chase, Ronald Donn, Peter Finch, Liz Forbes, Claudia K. Grinnell, Peter Horn, John Horvath, Jr., Harold Janzen, Shikha Malaviya, Andrea Mangeot, Murray Moulding, Cynthia Newcomer, Alvin Pang, Clinton V du Plessis, Michael Rothenberg, Kenneth Sherman, Red Slider and Robert Sullivan. * Something to Write Home About link=the Dialogue Jeffrey Alfier, Douglas Barbour, Anne Berkeley, Liz Forbes, and Danny Huppatz, led by Peter Howard, discuss the effect the global nature of the Internet has on poetry and the literary community, with a link to a trAce hosted discussion forum. * Word for Word link=the Dialogue CK Tower interviews noted Australian poet and editor, John Tranter. * In the Flesh link=the Dialogue Chocolate Waters brings some fresh *meat* to the cyber table in the form of work by NYC poet, Penelope MaGuffin. * Flashes on the Meridian link=the Means Pamelyn Casto, who hosts the Flash Fiction Workshop, helps to define this very popular way of writing, with previously unpublished examples of the genre written by Viktor Car, Alex Keegan and Sheila Murphy. * State of Affairs link=the Means Peter Howard reviews "Leaving and Leaving You" by Sophie Hannah. * Monster book of Poetry link=the Means Peter Howard reviews "Satan is a Mathematician" by Keith Allen Daniels. * Women Fly in Oregon link=the Means Wendy Taylor Carlisle takes us along to meet Lucille Clifton at "Flight of the Mind", a yearly writing workshop. * International, or Not? link=the Theory Pamelyn Casto reveals the amazing diversity among literary sites available on the Net. * Why Can't It Be X-MA: Agamben's Topoi and Spectacle Notes link=the Theory Robert Donn on regionalism and poetic language. * New Pastorals - A Streetmap link=the Theory Tim Love takes a look at the topography of hypertext. * Rhyme or Not link=the Theory Dan Waber makes a case for a new kind of *cognitive* rhyme. ***** contact: Editor - Jennifer Ley - jley@heelstone.com ***** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 12:52:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: innarresting booook Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" N. J. Loftis's early 70s book BLACK ANIMA had long been thought unavailable -- but there must have been a box or two of them lingering in a warehouse, because it's now gettable through amazon.com -- This is an unusual book, with words of praise from both Auden & Ashbery -- the amazon listing tells you it's a paperback, but when the book arrives in your mail you'll find it's the original hardcover -- at only $7.95 it's well worth your trouble -- get 'em while they last! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 16:46:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Making a Mess out of Things, Making Things out of a Mess MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII =-- Making a Mess out of Things, Making Things out of a Mess An article I want to write describes bungling as a primary condition of human existence, the confusion that results from a tendency towards tele- ology on one hand, and the complexity of everyday life on the other. Con- spiracy theory depends upon transcendence, a world of cause and effect; bungling theory is based on literal chaos, marked trajectories in colli- sion. History, obviously after the fact, tends towards conspiracy, if only through the filtering of the past, and the ideology of that filtering; making sense of the world is making a world out of sense, that sense con- structed from senselessness. It is senseless all the way down; there are no armatures, articulations, that extend beyond immediate domains, and even universal physical laws apply with such a light force - even death as such - that the wobbling of the world is always in evidence for those who see with open eyes. (We fail to see, as if by accident, this is the arti- cle that I have wanted to write, that sight itself resides at the tail-end of the whip, the perceptual cleansing of an abjecting world.) Bungling shapes the destiny of the human; it is a history always already not yet written, unwritable; it is in fact the nature of states-of-affairs in the Wittgensteinian and ordinary senses. Nothing proceeds according to plan because planning is always foreclosed, the result of a game occurring in a potential well permanently at odds with the rest of the universe, an impossibility. Heuristics come into play at every localized turn of ev- ents; the turn is of the nature of the bungle. Throughout, there are impe- tuses (let us say), trajectories/tendencies which proceed freely for a while, before hitting a wall or other dispersion. (We fail to see that obstacles are never placed, but of the order of the real.) Likewise motives remain deeply and permanently unclear; the ascription of motive is again an ascription of history, the imputation of meaning. To accept the deep meaninglessness of the world - including the bungling within and without the genome - is to begin an understanding which goes nowhere, because there is nowhere to go. Meaning is a temporary hiatus, the strategy of substance and presence, just as the sememe presents once again localized constructs allowing the human to co-exist with its ab- sence. And beyond or before motives, there is truth itself, already shaken within the foundations of symbolic logic, but accepted, with considerable fanfare and maintenance, on the level of the life-world. Once again, iss- ues of foreclosure and bungling appear, since truth is confined to that very same potential well - it's as if nothing can get at truth, because truth can get at nothing. (We fail to see that nothing is just that, not a project nor a noun.) For within the well, there is nothing at all, that is nothing ontological- ly viable - the well parallels the projections of the Platonic cave, a form of cinematic diminishment allowing meaning to emerge. The cinema is the model for the construction of meaning, the jump-cut for example as a concatenation on the level of ideality, the linkages or couplings of thought. But such a construction can only be a projection or introjection - one immediately runs into a subjectivity undercutting the crystalline world of the Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus, which can still be taken as the analog of orderly non-bungling, no matter how the Sheffer stroke is tossed about within it. We are still inheritors of the 19th-century, and conspiracy theory dies hard. (We fail to see that the success of a plan is an after-effect.) Which is not to say, by the way, that conspiracies do not exist or are not successful - but to say that they are not the order of the world, that assassinations are assassinations, that annihilations have no reason what- soever, no matter the cause. Or rather that the cause occurs within that potential well, that the ontological significance is nil, that acts of violence and non-violence, acts of criminality and acts of freedom and compassion, on a certain uncanny level, are idiotic in Clement Rosset's sense - that is, occurring within an inert and bungled world, and now, an overcrowded world deeply at odds with itself - and characterized by such odds. (We fail to see the foolishness around us.) For this reason, it is reasonable to say, we are not making a mess out of things, but, existentially in fact, we are making things out of a mess, as if these things had prior commitments. And that such makes us happy and gives us a life to live, not even in-the-face-of anything or tendency at all, but within the structural need of the human to by and large persev- ere, reproduce. Every defeat of the conspiratorial is a defeat for all of us; every cause that appears set free in the middle of the night attempts the creation of a new language of transcendental meaning. On one hand, the ruthlessness of non-truth; on the other, the truth of ruthlessness. We live by the latter, the former breathing down our necks - like death, al- ways on the periphery of our project. The subject, us, is always under construction, and thereby lies the lie. (We fail to see there are lies without truths.) Plan-et Ground There are lies without truths; the probability of truth is zero as an in- finite number of alternatives to exactitude appear to gnaw at the founda- tions. Everyone from Max Black (and I assume earlier) has noticed this. I'm not saying anything new. It might not have been Max Black; it could have been anyone. Further, there are no foundations, not if they're so thin that they attempt to disappear at the slightest breath of the butter- fly phenomenon. They don't attempt to disappear; there's disappearance everywhere at work here in the Cosmos. One false step in a program, and... Try writing HTML and put an extra < or > somewhere in the middle of a 20k page and see what emerges! Write a program and leave out the ; at the end of the line. You're beginning to get the picture - and it's lucky the pic- ture appears at all, given the compressions, translations, protocols, transmissions necessary for Nikuko's appearance in Cyberspace, New York. That's the Aristotelian rag, the classical logics that seem stable on the level of the real, keeping the values conserved and down. There's an econ- omy at work here. The breakdown-urge is greater than the holdfast. The Cosmos are full of part-objects, splatter-phenomena, dispersions without history, worn curb edges that nothing went past. To put a plan together is to foresee all possible consequences, defend against them. Any one of six billion people on the planet might conceivably show up at any moment, unwanted dinner guests, parasites in Serres' sense of the term. Plans are always already T-junctions, the thick stem replete with noise, temporary convolutions, circuit drains. Place the wrong ground in a circuit and electrons confuse everything, nothing travels much farther, all the images disappear; they were present for your eyes only, otherwise fallen apart. A recent rabbinical ruling specifies the name of God online isn't quite a name; the letters are pixels and independent, nothing stated or erased. You might think otherwise; you're permitted to think whatever you want, Speer tracing his footsteps over and over again, walking the plan-et earth on the prison grounds. There were no grounds; there were firewalls, there was no escape. The prison grounds grounded plan-et earth; countries sank into walled corridors and corners. You and I will look up into the same sky at the same time, our gaze will sustain us across these oceans. Water has memory; memory has no shape; shape is a gift to water. The T is the long-sought solution. Coterie Who makes these decisions anyway? Poetics When did the object begin and end, where was it spoken, who had spoken, how was it spoken, who, where, how, when? ___________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 17:45:50 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Whalen Comments: To: acoldgobot@hotmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with Coletti's interp of Tom Clark's ambivalent review. In the context of the large public circulation of San Francisco Chronicle, and the fact that Whalen is at the near end of his life, certainly his career, I was disappointed that Tom Clark focused on Whalen's slight and minor aspects, and somehow failed to look at the larger picture of Whalen's significance and mostly unacknowledged contribution to particularly American writing. (You would never know from the article that in 1969 Ron Padgett and Ted Berrigan(?) led a demonstration of a huge contingent of writers and readers around the offices of Harcourt & Brace when On Bears Head (the first anthology) to protest the inaccessible $17.50 hard cover price. In my opinion Whalen has produced some major stuff with large public intention (and no small knowledge of his relation and dialogue with his contemporaries and forbears). Among many works, as an entity, Scenes of Life at the Capital is probably my favorite, and (I believe) represents a real forward move from the Williams, Olson projects of poets who wander in City and spaces beyond. (In Whalen's case, Kyoto was the city.) My question remains as whether or not anybody has come to interesting and critical grips with Whalen's work?? By the way I must confess that I have not looked at the Penguin anthology. (I am more at home, where possible, with individual books. I always felt, for example, that the Black Sparrow Spicer anthology was a put off, or somehow diluted the unique power(magic) I got from reading the series of his individual White Rabbit and other press title books). On Bears Head, in fact, takes some fishing and sorting to take in the stronger spaces on the graph. (Clark is right to pick up on periods of disassociation and melancholia). But, from what I gather in response of my take on Clark's article, the Penguin anthology has created a mixed response, even among longtime Whalen readers. Good editors - assuming that the editing is the problem - at major publishing houses these days is not even a conceptual oxymoron in that the position of Editor, particularly that of a decently funded and supported Developmental Editor, appears to have gone the way of digital flesh. It might be of interest to the list for others to indicate Whalen work(s) that hit the "A" bell. As it has (for me) been to hear people speak of works by Ronald Johnson and Bob Grenier. Cheers, Stephen Vincent Coletti wrote: This review got my goat when I first read it a month or so ago on Jacket. It is ambivalent, prodding, & terribly uninspired. How was this review (which appears to be the same one from the Chronicle)put together? Every complement is countered by a neutral or negative bit of language. Weighted down by "the patient reader," "certain obsessive themes," "finicky," "generalizing," "odd," and so forth, this review appears to be trying to pass off as a positive one while seeding itself with vague & underlying resentment. Clark describes Whalen's writing as "disarmingly self-deflating comedy" without giving any sort of an enthused explanation as to why this very truth can bring about some of the best comic writing around. In the end, one gets the feeling that Tom Clark just dashed this one off to the presses. If he disliked the book then so be it. Say so. If he really felt that this "self-deprecating hipster-bodhissatva, wine glass and joint at the ready...remains perhaps the finest comic creation of the Beat era." then he sure made a lousy, shlocky stab at doing so. This selection was, in my opinion, one of the very best pieces of literature I came across this year. Whalen's writing deserves a better review than the limp & inchoate one that the Chronicle served up. I mean, count the words with typically negative connotations, and then read the review again. Inititally, I thought it was a positive review. Feeling somehow uneasy, I read it again. I don't think I would have picked the book up if I had simply read this review at face value without having already known of Whalen's writing and of this book specifically. For some, this will be a true shame. John Coletti<< ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:58:05 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Ellis Subject: Re: re(ad) Grenier Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed A 16 pp transcription of a talk Robert Grenier delivered in 1993 in Franconia, NH (where he taught for a number of years in the early 70s)is available as :that:, vol. II, no. 1. :that:, for those not familiar with it, was a small monthly poetry publication the first series of which ran 24 issues from 1992 to 1994. A second series began with the Grenier issue in 1996, followed by a second issue in '98, but since then, they (we) seem to have run out of (you name it). For details, or what's left of them, (I know, for example, the Grenier issue was $5 three years ago, but don't know how many, or if any, are left, tho that can be established pretty easily, if and as there's interest) send an email reply to this address, or post either of the co-editors as follows: Stephen Ellis / 23 Mitton St. / Portland, ME 04102, or Stephen Dignazio / 1070 Easton Valley Rd. / Easton, NH 03580 - SE >From: A H Bramhall >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: re(ad) Grenier >Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 17:07:26 -0400 > >this isn't about me. as a teacher Robert Grenier was a sensitive, generous >listener who found excitement and communicated it. tracking American Poetry >from Whitman and Dickinson thru to Williams, Zukofky, Olson. Creeley, >Levertov, O'Hara, Ashbery, Ginsberg, Coolidge, Saroyan... encompassing the >range, tho it was with Olson that he showed the most warmth, or maybe that >was my response (this isn't about me). a picture of Grenier with Olson, a >good foot shorter than the Big Fire Source, the giant and the kid. Grenier >moved north of Boston (teaching at Tufts I think) to be within hailing >distance of Olson. reading "Skunk Island" by Robert Lowell as if it were a >Zukofsky poem, syllable by syllable. he didn't seem distracted by the >varying interests and abilities of students. he didn't slap you on the >shoulder and say, great poem. he asked questions, he reread, he asked you >to >read, and read again. the discussion was in the air, he listened to the >air. >3rd eye staring. sometimes you, or I, would speak a phrase, somehow, >perhaps >unwittingly, happen upon an arrangement of words in writing or speech, as >one does, that struck him, and he would excitedly explain what struck him. >then he would credit you for finding. it wasn't encouragement, it was >commitment. to Poetry, which seems such a flat statement as I type. the job >at hand. recording his young daughter's Figures of Speech, found things. he >made use of a hallway lined with cork bulletin boards, usually devoted to >student artwork. carefully pinned 5x8 cards along the entire length, each >card containing one poem (later to become Sentences). he asked, what will I >do with these, his pile of 5x8 cards. a word gallery. > >could go >quiet any time > >he arranged for Larry Eigner to read at the school. informally gathered >around a couple of cafeteria tables, but an event nonetheless. if you want >to call that a gesture (which it wasn't, it was interest, it was genuine), >then call it a generous one. could we call Robert Grenier a pioneer? with >the idea that pioneers walk forth with or without paths. 'career' simply >describes his path. just responding to, seconding, Ron Silliman's push of >RG. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 23:10:44 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: Re: Whalen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed If "Whalen's writing deserves a better review than the limp & inchoate one that the Chronicle served up," write it. I don't think the SF chron poetry reviews are making or breaking any reputations. It's encouraging, however, to see that a review of poetry can still generate passionate responses. Maybe Philip will get the critical attention he deserves. > >This review got my goat when I first read it a month or so ago on >Jacket. >It is ambivalent, prodding, & terribly uninspired. How was this >review >(which appears to be the same one from the Chronicle)put together? >Every >complement is countered by a neutral or negative bit of language. >Weighted >down by "the patient reader," "certain obsessive themes," "finicky," >"generalizing," "odd," and so forth, this review appears to be >trying to >pass off as a positive one while seeding itself with vague & >underlying >resentment. Clark describes Whalen's writing as "disarmingly >self-deflating >comedy" without giving any sort of an enthused explanation as to why >this >very truth can bring about some of the best comic writing around. >In the >end, one gets the feeling that Tom Clark just dashed this one off to >the >presses. If he disliked the book then so be it. Say so. If he >really felt >that this "self-deprecating hipster-bodhissatva, wine glass and >joint at the >ready...remains perhaps the finest comic creation of the Beat era." >then he >sure made a lousy, shlocky stab at doing so. This selection was, in >my >opinion, one of the very best pieces of literature I came across >this year. >Whalen's writing deserves a better review than the limp & inchoate >one that >the Chronicle served up. I mean, count the words with typically >negative >connotations, and then read the review again. Inititally, I thought >it was >a positive review. Feeling somehow uneasy, I read it again. I >don't think >I would have picked the book up if I had simply read this review at >face >value without having already known of Whalen's writing and of this >book >specifically. For some, this will be a true shame. > >John Coletti > > >>From: Dale Smith >>Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >> >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >>Subject: Re: Whalen >>Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 22:40:28 GMT >> >>If anyone is really interested in reading this "downer" review of >>Philip >>Whalen by Tom Clark, you can browse: >> >> >> >>www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1999/06/27/RV105857.DTL. >> >> >> >>Tom's review in Jacket, or a 1996 review in the SF Chronicle of >>Whalen's >>Canoeing Up Cabarga Creek might seem more "generous and positive" >>to those >>used to book reviews reading like PR blurbs rather than critical >>engagements >>with poetry. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>Steve Vincent is being diplomatic in not saying that "the >>>Chronicle >>>critic" >> >>>is Tom Clark (whom I presume >> >>>must think it to have been a warm, generous and positive review of >>>his >> >>>one-time neighbor on the >> >>>mesa). Whalen's counter-careerism certainly has been a factor, and >>>Steve's >> >>>right about Rexroth and >> >>>Dahlen also. But I'd add Bob Grenier and even Joanne Kyger to that >>>list. >>>All >> >>>folks who deserve to be >> >>>read closely (and widely). >> >>> >> >>>Ron >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>"There was a downer review of Whalen's new Penquin collection >>>(with intro >>>by >> >>>Leslie Scalapino) in yesterday's San Francisco Sunday Chronicle >>>Book >>>Review. >> >>>I am not sure what the Chronicle critic was trying to perform >>>other than >>>he >> >>>somehow missed and hardly gave a clue to the rich and various >>>brilliance(s) >> >>>of Whalen's work. >> >>>While this work has fortunately managed to get published over the >>>years, >> >>>Whalen remains a wry counter-careerist which unfortunately has >>>kept the >> >>>poems >> >>>from larger public assessment, celebration and/or review. Maybe >>>obscurity >>>is >> >>>part of the character structure of some West coast giants. Kenneth >>>Rexroth >> >>>(who was very public) had a paranoid streak that caused him to >>>slash every >> >>>critic who crossed the horizon, leaving him dismissed from any >>>real >> >>>consideration in the modernist Canon. Retrieval efforts to >>>recognize his >> >>>work >> >>>remain ongoing. Then there is Beverly Dahlen in hermetic, >>>apparently quite >> >>>non-careerist retreat. Lyn Hejinian (gratefully) (among a few >>>others) for >> >>>example, seems to have figured it out - keeping her generous >>>critical mind >> >>>and creative work at the public forefront - east, middle and west. >> >>>Well, I diverged from my original intent. I'm pissed off at the >>>Chron >> >>>review. >> >>>Which is to ask, has anyone read a good, substantial review of >>>Whalen's >>>new >> >>>Collected? >> >>>Cheers, >> >>>Stephen Vincent" >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________________________ >>Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com >> > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 22:08:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Magee Subject: Re: What Was Whitman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit M O R E T H A N J U S T A P O S T E R B O Y The advice of an amicable separation or revirement, "Was wir wollen" [What we want] in No. 10 the telegraph, oceanic intercourse embracing the world in a network, together with the German communists in New York in No. 13 you gush Philosophy de l'Avenir collectivistes, machinery on a massive scale, machine-making out of the cradle, the cotton gin, cotton trade, sheets like wadding in layers, they leave the machine fit for the press and bale . . . a belt shifter . . . hemp carding and spinning . . . reels the cliver . . . cuts from the sheet, pastes, folds, India rubber rollers ballasting roads and crushing ores, Prize Medal industrial daguerreotypes, force pump California emporia over America and the Pacific Rim electrify into their vortex burlesque English Pindars across the Ohio's howls of the rowdies, conciliatory satellites, the African slave trade de factor Dred Scott, the Kansas war, Harriet Beecher Stowe said Buchanan (James, not Pat) bought his nomination by pledging the Union to conquer in Cuba a new field of dominion [the Ostend Manifesto on Oct. 18, 1854, declared the value of Cuba to U.S. was such that the island might be taken by force]. Memoranda rain, the war cry of the London press, he sang the bravura aria of his role mutato nomine de te fabula narratur (Lucan, Pharsalia), a mere bagatelle under the administration of Zuloaga and Miramón, relatives of the Emperor and fellow operators of haute poètique, framed by them in America, should the theater of the Aztecs be lost to Constantinople, Athens and Rome à la Ricardo Montauban, who flavored the world with a fat tome from Paris about his "discovery," a secret chapter of history? Norfolk, New Bern, Port Royal, Pensacola, New Orleans, Morgan annihilated at Frankfort, Rosencrans at Corinth, Tyre, Carthage and Alexandria, Genoa and Venice, London and Liverpool whitewashed "free labor" the exodus from Ireland in 1847-48 bulk labor in white skin branded in black skin. Color is a matter of indifference, the working class is everywhere born for slavery in the basin between the Rocky Mountains and the Alleghanies, in the valleys of the Mississippi, the Missouri, and Ohio rivers--there, beyond the Dykes, I heard windflakingSapphire--out the mouth of the Mississippi strong and hostile hands emanate the lot of the German and Irish 1857 Homeric exuberance interpellate Thouvenel, Peza-y-Peza forwarded to the poets as fast as it's bagged, 40s twist 4C-inch shirtings--"why shouldn't you be woke?"--the facades of the social look like a satyr, "Tussy" KM's daughter Eleanor a letter writer speak face to face fornicationally ships of glass two hundred miles off the African coast. The white trash are said to have come to Louisville (elimination of small tenant farmers in green Erin); Castlereagh would have forbid them to set foot on the street at all. Learn that the Irish in the United States are not a zero. In Hollyer's 1854 engraving, the "cute Yankee" a le flair bon. There is a Whitman that will one day belong to a mature historical materialism: the Catholic Emancipation, the Reform Bill, the repeal of the Corn Laws, the Ten Hours Bill, the war against Russia, Palmerston's Conspiracy Theory, including the instructions sent by the Captain General of Cuba to the Spanish commanders gone on Vienna. When lilacs last against a post foretold, a group of workers wrote: "It is not our part to call words of sorrow and horror while the heart of two worlds heaves with emotion . . . and rival with each other to strew rhetorical flowers on his open grave" (from Address of the International Working Men's Association to President Johnson, written between May 2 and 9, published in the Bee-Hive May 20, signed May 13, 1865: R. Applegarth, carpenter; M.J. Boon, engineer; J. Buckley, painter; J. Hales, elastic web-weaver; Harriet Law; B. Lucraft, chair-maker; J. Milner, tailor; G. Odger, shoemaker; J. Ross, bootcloser; R. Shaw, painter; Cowell Stepney; J. Warren, trunk-maker; J. Weston, handrail maker; E. Dupont, instrument maker; Jules Johannard, lithographer; Paul Lafargue; G. Eccarius, tailor; F. Lessner, tailor; W. Limburg, shoemaker; Karl Marx; H. Jung, watchmaker; A. Müller, watchmaker; M. Bernard, painter; J. Cohn, cigarmaker; Zabicki, compositor). \ > / < \ Notes: The by no means weighty Paterson Labor Standard wanders about in an Atlantic Ocean air of melodrama, a sort of blue book on the condition of miners in Pennsylvania (1874-75). "Thoreau never sounds more like a crank than on John Brown" (letter to Friedrich Adolph Sorge in Hoboken, New York Herald, August 3, 1871). "Goethe, Prometheus, I, strophe 10." the "redness" is said the "redress" is said ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 11:37:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: niedecker question (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This came to the administrative account. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 23:16:56 -0700 From: janice miller To: poetics@acsu.buffalo.edu Subject: niedecker question In Lorine Niedecker: Woman and Poet (1996) Tandy Sturgeon suggests there will be a new edition of a collected Niedecker. Would anyone on your list know when this might come out? Or how I might find out more about its progress? If you posted this question, responses could be sent to me at Jmm2c@viginia.edu Janice Miller ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:05:55 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Susan M. Schultz" Subject: Re: burnt epistles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'll be off the list from July 2-19. If anyone needs me, I can be found--infrequently--at websterschultz@yahoo.com, in some internet cafe or other. The next _Tinfish_ should be out at the end of the summer. Forthcoming chapbooks by Nell Altizer and Rob Wilson, as well. all best, Susan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 20:20:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Reviews.... In-Reply-To: <19990630232308.37204.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well, then there's (on the other side?) the question of "positive" reviews. In the latest st. marks newsletter, for instance, there's at least two "positive" reviews of books that--if i didn't already know the books (one which i think is pretty damn great the other not bad but "excellent scribbling in a period style"---more on this backchannel)--would actually turn me away from reading them, more than a more AMBIVALENT review would. Since I'm more interested in the ISSUE than in the specifics, I leave the names blank for now.... curious what others think.... chris On Wed, 30 Jun 1999, john coletti wrote: > This review got my goat when I first read it a month or so ago on Jacket. > It is ambivalent, prodding, & terribly uninspired. How was this review > (which appears to be the same one from the Chronicle)put together? Every > complement is countered by a neutral or negative bit of language. Weighted > down by "the patient reader," "certain obsessive themes," "finicky," > "generalizing," "odd," and so forth, this review appears to be trying to > pass off as a positive one while seeding itself with vague & underlying > resentment. Clark describes Whalen's writing as "disarmingly self-deflating > comedy" without giving any sort of an enthused explanation as to why this > very truth can bring about some of the best comic writing around. In the > end, one gets the feeling that Tom Clark just dashed this one off to the > presses. If he disliked the book then so be it. Say so. If he really felt > that this "self-deprecating hipster-bodhissatva, wine glass and joint at the > ready...remains perhaps the finest comic creation of the Beat era." then he > sure made a lousy, shlocky stab at doing so. This selection was, in my > opinion, one of the very best pieces of literature I came across this year. > Whalen's writing deserves a better review than the limp & inchoate one that > the Chronicle served up. I mean, count the words with typically negative > connotations, and then read the review again. Inititally, I thought it was > a positive review. Feeling somehow uneasy, I read it again. I don't think > I would have picked the book up if I had simply read this review at face > value without having already known of Whalen's writing and of this book > specifically. For some, this will be a true shame. > > John Coletti > > > >From: Dale Smith > >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > >Subject: Re: Whalen > >Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 22:40:28 GMT > > > >If anyone is really interested in reading this "downer" review of Philip > >Whalen by Tom Clark, you can browse: > > > > > > > >www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1999/06/27/RV105857.DTL. > > > > > > > >Tom's review in Jacket, or a 1996 review in the SF Chronicle of Whalen's > >Canoeing Up Cabarga Creek might seem more "generous and positive" to those > >used to book reviews reading like PR blurbs rather than critical > >engagements > >with poetry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >>Steve Vincent is being diplomatic in not saying that "the Chronicle > >>critic" > > > >>is Tom Clark (whom I presume > > > >>must think it to have been a warm, generous and positive review of his > > > >>one-time neighbor on the > > > >>mesa). Whalen's counter-careerism certainly has been a factor, and Steve's > > > >>right about Rexroth and > > > >>Dahlen also. But I'd add Bob Grenier and even Joanne Kyger to that list. > >>All > > > >>folks who deserve to be > > > >>read closely (and widely). > > > >> > > > >>Ron > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>"There was a downer review of Whalen's new Penquin collection (with intro > >>by > > > >>Leslie Scalapino) in yesterday's San Francisco Sunday Chronicle Book > >>Review. > > > >>I am not sure what the Chronicle critic was trying to perform other than > >>he > > > >>somehow missed and hardly gave a clue to the rich and various > >>brilliance(s) > > > >>of Whalen's work. > > > >>While this work has fortunately managed to get published over the years, > > > >>Whalen remains a wry counter-careerist which unfortunately has kept the > > > >>poems > > > >>from larger public assessment, celebration and/or review. Maybe obscurity > >>is > > > >>part of the character structure of some West coast giants. Kenneth Rexroth > > > >>(who was very public) had a paranoid streak that caused him to slash every > > > >>critic who crossed the horizon, leaving him dismissed from any real > > > >>consideration in the modernist Canon. Retrieval efforts to recognize his > > > >>work > > > >>remain ongoing. Then there is Beverly Dahlen in hermetic, apparently quite > > > >>non-careerist retreat. Lyn Hejinian (gratefully) (among a few others) for > > > >>example, seems to have figured it out - keeping her generous critical mind > > > >>and creative work at the public forefront - east, middle and west. > > > >>Well, I diverged from my original intent. I'm pissed off at the Chron > > > >>review. > > > >>Which is to ask, has anyone read a good, substantial review of Whalen's > >>new > > > >>Collected? > > > >>Cheers, > > > >>Stephen Vincent" > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________________________ > >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 11:36:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Re: Whalen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT With the flurry of talk about Phil Whalen, I wanted to mention again that _Beneath a Single Moon: Buddhism in Contemporary American Poetry_, is being reissued by Shambhala shortly. There is a generous selection of Whalen's poetry therein _and_ a brilliant essay by him that is not available elsewhere. And I agree with Dale Smith's pithy and reasonable point that if one doesn't like Tom Clark's review and feels that Whalen deserves better, well, then, one should write a better review. Just a thought, but maybe John Tranter at Jacket would be delighted to have a special section on Whalen as he has just done with Spicer? (that's a public suggestion, John.) It would be a nice tribute to one of U.S. poetry's most interesting individuals. Kent ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:03:29 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Subject: Re: Whalen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scenes of Life... yes yes & dont forget Speeches for a Brazen Head -- which Judi Stout (who is not on this list) & I read & loved early 80s & can it really be true that Robert Grenier has somehow become obscure? having been v much stimulated to rethink my own writing from reading: Cambridge M'ass, A Day at the Beach, Sentences, Sentences towards Birds, Oakland (Tuumba) Series & having also had my skills at ping-pong put to a severe test, I find this hard to believe. Tony Green ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 21:41:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: Charles Alexander & Sarah Mangold Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Seeking these 2 or their latest emails b/c re: next Outlet. Thanks and apologies and happy 4th. ET Outlet Magazine -&- Double Lucy Books P.O. Box 9013, Berkeley, California 94709 U.S.A. http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 11:50:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jamie Perez Subject: Re: innarresting booook MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Must plead complete ignorance on this one (both book and author). But am intrigued. Could someone lend a descriptive hand? (maybe the first step to him having an EPC author page) jamie.p Aldon Nielsen wrote: > > N. J. Loftis's early 70s book BLACK ANIMA had long been thought unavailable > -- but there must have been a box or two of them lingering in a warehouse, > because it's now gettable through amazon.com -- This is an unusual book, > with words of praise from both Auden & Ashbery -- the amazon listing tells > you it's a paperback, but when the book arrives in your mail you'll find > it's the original hardcover -- at only $7.95 it's well worth your trouble > -- get 'em while they last! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 16:13:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Lennon Subject: Re: Reviews.... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I often wonder if generic praise or gratuitous hostility is worse. If a book sucks, why not just review something else instead? On the other hand, the banal jacket-copy prose of many reviews ("A tour de force! The most astonishing debut in decades! The best poet writing in English today!") makes me long for a good old-fashioned hatchet job. I have no problem writing a censorious review of a mediocre third or fourth or nineteenth book by an author who enjoys the unwavering support of a major publisher: why not enjoin the writer to please remove her or his hand from the cookie jar? In many other cases, it seems not worth saying anything if there's nothing nice to say. It would probably be more useful to review bad reviewers than to review bad books. But who would read those??? Brian Lennon At 08:20 PM 7/1/99 -0400, Chris Stroffolino wrote: >Well, then there's (on the other side?) the question of "positive" reviews. >In the latest st. marks newsletter, for instance, there's at least two >"positive" reviews of books that--if i didn't already know the books (one >which i think is pretty damn great the other not bad but "excellent >scribbling in a period style"---more on this backchannel)--would actually >turn me away from reading them, more than a more AMBIVALENT review would. >Since I'm more interested in the ISSUE than in the specifics, I leave the >names blank for now.... >curious what others think.... >chris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 17:05:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: THING.... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Here's a THING I'm involved in.... There will be FREE DRINKS Reuben reubin and LEE Klein invite you to celebrate the publication of CAME LIKE IT WENT by Greg Fuchs (buckdown books) UNLOCKING THE EXITS by Eliot Katz (Coffee House Press) VERTICAL's CURRENCY: NEW & SELECTED POEMS by Joel Lewis (Talisman THE FUTURE IS NOW b Elizabeth Morse (Linear Arts) STEALER'S WHEEL by Chris Stroffolino (Hard Press) Saturday July 19, THE VIP ROOM IN the new CHINA CLUB 268 West 47th St. (btw. b'way & 8th) Doors open 10PM; "cocktails" 10-11 ------------- We'll probably all read like 2 poems or something too... If can't make it, you may find my book in POSMAN's BOOKSTORE (University Place) and St. Marks may still have it... You could also STEAL it from BARNES & NOBLE.... ----chris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 19:00:42 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Readers Organization: Re*Map Subject: Re: Whalen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit KENT JOHNSON wrote: > > With the flurry of talk about Phil Whalen, I wanted to mention again > that _Beneath a Single Moon: Buddhism in Contemporary > American Poetry_, is being reissued by Shambhala shortly. There is a > generous selection of Whalen's poetry therein _and_ a brilliant essay > by him that is not available elsewhere. > > And I agree with Dale Smith's pithy and reasonable point that if one > doesn't like Tom Clark's review and feels that Whalen deserves > better, well, then, one should write a better review. Just a thought, > but maybe John Tranter at Jacket would be delighted to have a special > section on Whalen as he has just done with Spicer? (that's a public > suggestion, John.) It would be a nice tribute to one of U.S. poetry's > most interesting individuals. > > Kent a response to Whalen stuff: Clark needs to see that often there is LITTLE PUBLIC SPACE (newspapers atht actually get read by the "masses") for reviews, poems, printed thots in the world--and that publishers/newspapers, etc. WILL NOT give more than a dab o' space for a review of poetry. Thus, your response to "write a better one" is a good idea--but Clark took up what little space there might be for a public proclamation. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:28:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: hassen Subject: dna, will, what, what! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit pardon me, w[a/o]ndering back - within the past month? - breezed over a post concerning *dna & will*. anyone know of this or am i fabricating again? if it rings a bell & brings forth more info, please oh please relay. & backchannel if appropriate. thanks in advance, hassen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 08:31:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Grenier In-Reply-To: <002201bec4df$d58ea8c0$773661cb@a> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >& can it really be true that Robert Grenier has somehow become obscure? a relative point, it seems. I would imagine that just about every poet ever mentioned on this list is obscure to most of the reading public, probably even most of the poetry-reading public. On the other hand, within this list, I would certainly hope Grenier isn't obscure. And I agree that his work is crucial, as you say here, Tony. charles >having been v much stimulated to rethink my own writing from reading: > > Cambridge M'ass, > A Day at the Beach, > Sentences, > Sentences towards Birds, > Oakland (Tuumba) > Series > >& having also had my skills at ping-pong put to a severe test, I find this >hard to believe. > >Tony Green > > --- chax press & alexander writing/design/publishing handmade books & communications design http://alexwritdespub.com/chax ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 01:12:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: MINE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII =/ MINE arms and legs cut off no control over what YOU do to ME to MY texts to MY words where YOU are what YOU are thinking of what tales YOU tell built on the ruins of MY words as I did say and reiterate THESE words which are MINE which you desecrate and VIOLATE all FOREVER and and and I suppose I might insist that RIGHT HERE is an interruption when YOU know better that I'VE placed whatever trash is in YOUR way right in THIS spot RIGHT HERE it does seem to keep sliding YOU'LL do to ME whatever YOU feel like anyway I shouldn't complain IT DOESN'T DO ANY GOOD whoever YOU are I mean YOU MIGHT AS WELL BE MY EYES while YOU'RE AT IT or EARS WHATEVER JUST LEAVE THE LETTERS AT THE DOOR WHEN YOU LEAVE THEY'RE MINE MINE MINE MINE MINE MINE MINE MINE ________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 03:05:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Song from E. A. C. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII =[ Song from E. A. C. Oh maiden, bind the stalks! Aroo lay, aroo lay! Oh maiden, the stalks will be bound! Aloor, aroo lay, aroo lay! Oh youngman, carry the sheaves! Aroo lay, aroo lay! Oh youngman, the sheaves will be carried! Aloor, aroo lay, aroo lay! Oh maiden, unbind the stalks! Aroo lay, aroo lay! Oh maiden, the stalks are unbound! Aloor, aroo lay, aroo lay! Oh youngman, assemble the sheaves! Aroo lay, aroo lay! Oh youngman, the sheaves are assembled! Aloor, aroo lay, aroo lay! Oh maiden, the sheaves and the stalks! Aroo lay, aroo lay! Oh youngman, the stalks and the sheaves! Aloor, aroo lay, aroo lay! __________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 02:56:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: kent johnson to the rescue (was whalen) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" agreed, kent, one might well review whalen's book oneself. I don't agree, however, that not to do so should prevent one from remarking flaws in another's review. This is a curious advocacy. For instance, john william corrington's dismissive review of robert creeley's poetry is clearly assinine even to people who never reviewed creeley, and surely they have a right to say so. I will never review You've Got Mail, but i can tell you that anyone who reviewed it favorably, is an idiot. db. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 14:11:09 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: Re: Whalen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed "Public proclamation" is an annoying reduction of the sensitive evaluation Clark gives Whalen in this review. The trouble some have, I believe, is with the reviewer, not the review, because the piece is clearly favorable in that it articluates, in a short space, some complex themes of Whalen's writing. Otherwise, there would be discussion of Whalen's work on this list, how it works for or against TC's claims. Todd Baron wrote: >a response to Whalen stuff: Clark needs to >see that often there is LITTLE PUBLIC SPACE (newspapers atht actually >get read by the "masses") for reviews, poems, printed thots in the >world--and that publishers/newspapers, etc. WILL NOT give more than a >dab o' space for a review of poetry. Thus, your response to "write a >better one" is a good idea--but Clark took up what little space there >might be for a public proclamation. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 17:01:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: A H Bramhall Subject: Recognize MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I said once I wouldn't then I did. you never know or can you? it surprises you even as you expect with all the weight that makes sense. it troubles and finds relief. relief? a torture of patterns in conjunction. this will never do, and yet it does. a bluff but waiting for more information. no information is enough. not yet not ever, and that's fine. nothing will ever be fine but that's just squawk. one gets used to squawk, and squawk again. a bargain of jitters, triumph and where are you? walk home now and, later, look back to your home. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 12:28:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: A H Bramhall Subject: Whole MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit allen i can't go there with you any more but all love ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 18:03:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: One "could" (re: whalen) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On July 3, David Bromige said: >agreed, kent, one might well review whalen's book >oneself. I don't agree, however, that not to do so should prevent one >from remarking flaws in another's review. This is a curious advocacy. >For instance, john william corrington's dismissive review of robert >creeley's poetry is clearly assinine even to people who never >reviewed creeley, and surely they have a right to say so. I will >never review You've Got Mail, but i can tell you that anyone who >reviewed it favorably, is an idiot. db. David: The coincidence here is remarkable, because I have been, for the past fourteen months, the Midwest Treasurer of the Meg Ryan Fan Club, and You've Got Mail is one of my favorite movies ever! Do you think I am an idiot? But anyway, here's what I said: >And I agree with Dale Smith's pithy and reasonable point that if one >doesn't like Tom Clark's review and feels that Whalen deserves >better, well, then, one should write a better review. Actually, I think your point above is a good one, so I will change "should" to "could". One _could_ write a better review, and in writing this review not only do justice to the underappreciated Whalen but also smash into the ground the horrible face of the terrible anti-christ Tom Clark, whose blasphemous name elicits posts on this List like a vampire elicits crosses in a convent. See how this moderated List helps us all to quickly agree? Kent ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 21:09:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Billy Little Subject: Re: Whalen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Whalen broke as much ground for american poetry and poets as ginsberg or spicer or kerouac, next to whalen's gary snyder's work looks like amy lowell's(next to joanne kyger's snyder's work looks like amy lowell's). In the early publications just the appearance, the calligraphy, the erasures, the doodles shifted your reality. His no frills syntax gave permission to Kerouac and Acker and Bernstein alike. forbidden plateau fallen body dojo 4 song st. nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 canadaddy zonko@mindless.com zonko ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 23:06:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: poetry in RealAudio Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This week's Mappings, my show on Antenna Internet Radio, features five compositions by Joihn Zorn, including a lengthy collaboration between John Zorn & Lyn Hejinian called Que Tran (pardon the missing accents), created as one of a series of pieces by Zorn with texts & Music called New Traditions in East Asian Bar Bands. Performing musicians are Anthony Coleman & Wayner Horvitz, the text is read by Anh Tran, in a Vietnamese translation by Tu Vu. (& I'm starting to box box things up in advance of a move to Forth Wort texas this fall & don't have my books easy to get at. Could someone help identify whether the Hejinian has been otherwise published? It's a fairly long piece beginning"A woman waits for sleep, but it is away at war, and in the end it doesn't return ..." Thanks.) Next week's show (beginning Sunday July 11th, sometime before midnight West Coast (US) time) features all text oriented pieces,including a lot of poets reading and collaborations of various sorts between composer/performers and poets. I'll send out more details next Sunday. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:42:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Taylor Brady Subject: Re: poetry in RealAudio In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Herb, Someone else will doubtless have a bibliography more accurate than mine, but I believe the Hejinian piece is part of a longer project that, last I saw it in magazines, was being called "Sleeps." Part of it appeared in Grand Street a few years back. Maybe in Conjunctions as well? Unfortunately, I don't have an index for either of those publications, and haven't seen further installments, other than the one on the Zorn CD, in quite a while. And while the design of the text inserts for the CD is very striking, the 8 point-or-so size of the text makes close reading a difficult proposition at best. For those who haven't previously encountered it, by the way, I highly recommend the Zorn, which also has a text by Myung Mi Kim narrated by Jung Hee Shin with a percussion duo played by Joey Baron and Sam Bennett; and a text by Arto Lindsay narrated by Zhang Jinglin with guitar duo played by Bill Frisell and Fred Frith. Glad to hear you're featuring some of this work on Antenna. Best, Taylor Brady >This week's Mappings, my show on Antenna Internet Radio, features five >compositions by Joihn Zorn, including a lengthy collaboration between John >Zorn & Lyn Hejinian called Que Tran (pardon the missing accents), created >as one of a series of pieces by Zorn with texts & Music called New >Traditions in East Asian Bar Bands. Performing musicians are Anthony >Coleman & Wayner Horvitz, the text is read by Anh Tran, in a Vietnamese >translation by Tu Vu. (& I'm starting to box box things up in advance of a >move to Forth Wort texas this fall & don't have my books easy to get at. >Could someone help identify whether the Hejinian has been otherwise >published? It's a fairly long piece beginning"A woman waits for sleep, but >it is away at war, and in the end it doesn't return ..." Thanks.) > >Next week's show (beginning Sunday July 11th, sometime before midnight West >Coast (US) time) features all text oriented pieces,including a lot of poets >reading and collaborations of various sorts between composer/performers and >poets. I'll send out more details next Sunday. > > > > > > >Herb Levy >herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 16:55:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David Erben (Art)" Subject: Unsolicited Submissions/Taos Poets Gathering Comments: To: UB Poetics discussion group In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Can anyone tell me what the "typical" letter accompanying an unsolicited submission should look like? And... did anyone happen to attend the gathering of Native American poets that occurred in Taos two or three weeks ago? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 14:51:50 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Ellis Subject: Re: Whalen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Weird to think of published statements as taking up public (media?) space, per Todd Baron's remarks; would it be better to leave public spaces empty, and let thinking take care of itself in private? And besides, who's to limit the extent and/or duration of "public space" - aside, of course, the usual and expected "no more room on the ad pg for YOU ... " - since all audience not virtual and speculative on the part of the speaker is always limited. Those thinking to write "better" reviews of Whalen than TC is thought by some here to have managed, could obviously post them on this list. Or does that not hold the possibility of "a wider readership" up to the correct mirror? Dale seems to've got hold of a singular point, tho - where's the news from Whalen's actual TEXTS that spoils TCs take, given that it's there for the spoiling to begin with. It seems we're far removed from any critical spirit re: Whalen, and are simply out for sport. That being the case, might we not accompany a vendetta against TC with several of his finer baseball poems, just for the sake of fairness? >From: Dale Smith >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Whalen >Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 14:11:09 GMT > >"Public proclamation" is an annoying reduction of the sensitive evaluation >Clark gives Whalen in this review. The trouble some have, I believe, is >with >the reviewer, not the review, because the piece is clearly favorable in >that >it articluates, in a short space, some complex themes of Whalen's writing. >Otherwise, there would be discussion of Whalen's work on this list, how it >works for or against TC's claims. > > > > > >Todd Baron wrote: > > > >>a response to Whalen stuff: Clark needs to > >>see that often there is LITTLE PUBLIC SPACE (newspapers atht actually > >>get read by the "masses") for reviews, poems, printed thots in the > >>world--and that publishers/newspapers, etc. WILL NOT give more than a > >>dab o' space for a review of poetry. Thus, your response to "write a > >>better one" is a good idea--but Clark took up what little space there > >>might be for a public proclamation. > > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 19:58:25 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Re: re(ad) Grenier MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Grenier's _12 from r h y m m s_ was published by us here at Pavement Saw Press on a challenge by Witz that no one could put the series into print. There are still a few of the unsigned copies available for $20. They are 12 4-color reproductions on 25% cotton, recycled, watermarked, color retaining paper. To add to Charles, probably Grenier is obscure because he is still living. Be well David Baratier Pavement Saw Press PO box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 21:58:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Prolegomena for a Science of Concrete Thought MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ={ Prolegomena for a Science of Concrete Thought I. Foundations of Language Related to the Social A. Definition of the Social: Cognition, Phenomenology, Psychology 1. Meaning as Relational: The Contour, The Gift, Exchange-Strata i. Problematic of the Thing, Avoiding Circularities a. Discursive Flows: Non-linguistic, Linguistic 1a. Non-linguistics and the Question of Language Ia. Abjection: Aura, The Numinous, Noise Aa. Constitution of Core-Structures and Protocols 1ai. Foundations of the (Physical) Real aai. Speaking in the Real, Mouth and Machine 1aiA. Analytics and Research Aai. Orality, The Mouth and Body (Machine) 1A. Couplings and Linkages, The Mesh a1a. The World, Knowledge Aiai. Knowledge for Whom or What? Aai. The Case of the Avatars 1a1A. The Case of the Real ______________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 06:32:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: A H Bramhall Subject: clark on whalen, whalin' on clark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit it's easy enough to evaluate Tom Clark (I'll bet he enjoys chardonnay) because he has mustered himself into so many public venues. to describe him as an anti-christ is interesting theology, but, without supporting argument, not a shining example of critical acumen. I'm not worried about Tom Clark anyway, a-c tho he might be. at the risk of making eye contact, I bet Kent Johnson COULD provide critical acumen re PW so I hereby request that he, or anyone, do so. me, whoever I happen to be, would welcome comments about PW. to my view, there's a meditative, discursive breed of poetry that includes um PW, Lew Welch but also (I'm not suggesting a school) Carl Rakosi, Charles Resnikov and... Paul Blackburn? my own thoughts aren't well formed, hence my request. at any rate, I too suspect Whalen is under-appreciated (and double that with Kyger: I too am guilty as charged). I have On Bear Head, am not positioned to buy anything new and have read very little about PW. Billy Little briefly suggested some useful talking points concerning PW, and I truly doubt the mean moderator would prevent further discussion so trip the light fantastic step, how about. a minor buzz about PW could be bestirred right here in this seething climate. my thinking, you see, is that theory begats action. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 06:32:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: A H Bramhall Subject: Intentional Display of Knowledge MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 'avid' became a verb on tuesday. why is not known but now you have it. you can assert a delight without needing turgid phrases to signify your state. the possibility exists that the word will revert to its earlier properties, and 'avid' will no longer be an action word, but until then enjoy the chance to be specific and enthralled. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 11:16:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Zauhar Subject: Re: Whalen In-Reply-To: <42611121.24ad3b8e@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, Stephen Vincent wrote: > I agree with Coletti's interp of Tom Clark's ambivalent review. In the > context of the large public circulation of San Francisco Chronicle, and the > fact that Whalen is at the near end of his life, certainly his career, I was > disappointed that Tom Clark focused on Whalen's slight and minor aspects, and > somehow failed to look at the larger picture of Whalen's significance and > mostly unacknowledged contribution to particularly American writing. (You > would never know from the article that in 1969 Ron Padgett and Ted > Berrigan(?) led a demonstration of a huge contingent of writers and readers > around the offices of Harcourt & Brace when On Bears Head (the first > anthology) to protest the inaccessible $17.50 hard cover price. Interesting detail: Ron Padgett has written one book-length Memoir of Berrigan, Tom Clark another. Can't think of any memoir concerning literary friendships of Whalen, alas. Still, the review didn't seem that negative to me, either. And Clark has done some REAL hatchet jobs in the past ("Stalin as Linguist," first in Poetry Flash I think and then in the neo-con Partisan Review, comes to mind). I don't know how the SF papers operate, but could it be that they consciously try to prevent reviews from seeming to be advertisements or log-rollings. If I didn't know Whalen's work, I wouldn't be put off from investigating it based on the Clark review. Then again, I might not beat a path to the nearest independent bookstore to track it down, either. David Zauhar University of Illinois at Chicago I dreamed I saw Hugo Ball the night was cold I couldn't even call his name though I tried so I hung my head and cried --bpNichol ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 11:53:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Spiral question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Nabokov once said that a spiral is a circle set free. What would be and whereto the forms of Authors set free? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:03:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Ryan Knighton, Editor" Subject: Oliver address In-Reply-To: <002101bec63a$41608540$95930fce@tenacre> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi all, If doug oliver is out there or someone has a backchannel address I'd appreciate it as much as I can. Bests, Ryan ___________________________________ Ryan Knighton, Editor The Capilano Review 2055 Purcell Way N. Vancouver V7J 3H5 PH: (604) 984-1712 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 20:00:11 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jilith@AOL.COM Subject: event listing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable synapse: second sundays at blue bar --presents-- a reading with susan gevirtz and myung mi kim july 11, 2 p.m. blue bar is at 501 broadway, at kearney, in sf enter thru black cat restaurant, same address admission is $2 pssst=85their new collaborative chapbook from a+bend press will be available at the reading ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 09:15:27 +0100 Reply-To: "A. Brady" Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Brady" Subject: Announcement, Barque Press / Wilkinson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Resurrected/now available in luscious offset: OORT'S CLOUD: EARLIER POEMS (1970-1984)=20 by JOHN WILKINSON 208 pp. paperback 10 pounds (UK) or $15 (US) Barque Press and subpress, Cambridge 1999 A collection of the earliest chapbooks and other work, this partner volume to the Parataxis Editions _Flung Clear_ includes poems from=20 1970-1984, early and previously unpublished work by one of Britain's most distinguished and influential poets.=20 =09Ever wanted to get your eyes on the long-out-of-print _The Central Line_, or _Tracts of the Country_? This large book includes both, alongside _Maudie's Umbrella_, _Sweetness and Light_, _Air Fleet Base_, _Pornography_ and much else. **This book will be launched at a chic London location still to nominate itself, probably toward the beginning of August, probably fireworked and highly entertaining, definitely to be announced. To obtain any Barque book, please e-mail or otherwise contact: Andrea Brady Keston Sutherland 309 E. Gravers Lane Gonville and Caius College Philadelphia, PA 19118 Cambridge CB2 1TA USA ENGLAND ab204@hermes.cam.ac.uk kms20@hermes.cam.ac.uk The Barque stable also includes such racy chapbooks (still available) as: -Red D Gypsum =09=09=09by J.H. Prynne=09=0920 pp =A33/$5** -Poem on a Train =09=09by Jordan Davis=09=0940 pp =A33/$5 -Selections from=20 =09the Parasite Poems =09by Kristin Prevallet =0932 pp =A32/$4 -At the Motel Partial Opportunity by Keston Sutherland=0916 pp =A33/$5 -Mincemeat Seesaw =09=09by Keston Sutherland =0948 pp =A33/$5 -Liberties=09=09=09by Andrea Brady =0952 pp =A33/$5 -The Honky's Guide to Wet Dreams by Sam Brenton=09=0916 pp =A32/$4 -Diagnostic=09=09=09by Tim Morris=09=0920 pp =A32/$4 -Incarnate's =09=09=09by Jeremy Hardingham=0920 pp =A32/$4 =09And yet but still just this and will soon feature further, impressive work by Kevin Nolan, Alan Halsey editing Mary Leapor (1748), Stacy Doris, and Leo Mellor. Also from Barque: Quid, a monthly poetry + politics magazine (name=3Dcost=3Dimage). **(shipping and careful packing will have to be added to the above prices) =20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 13:58:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: the devil in tom clark Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >n but also smash into the ground the horrible face of the >terrible anti-christ Tom Clark, whose blasphemous name elicits posts >on this List like a vampire elicits crosses in a convent thus Kent Johnson. Now tell me, Kent (and others, should you know), is the List's reaction to Tom Clark utterly without grounds, has he been selected at random for extraordinary punishments, "demonized" as Kent would have it metrely through bad luck and the need for a scapegoat.........Or is the rhetoric flourished in the citation above, a way to distract us from some pretty obvious flaws? And if so, in the name of _what_ is this rhetoric flourished? Tell me, fellow-listlings, if you can : does TC command such loyalty in some, that they will overlook what any person of average I.Q. (I allude to myself f and f) would recognize in TC's writings as major inconsistencies, unresolved conflicts, flawed thought.....or what have you? Excuse the upcoming divagation : I had occasion once to write to the wife of a man who had abandoned all reason and logic to castigate me publicly. My response to this rudeness, at first reasoning, became itself rude. To which she now objected, inserting herself into the exchange. To which I responded by remarking the several provocations. To this she did not respond. To her, it was as though the words her man had uttered, that started it all, did not exist--had not been uttered. Presumably because somebody _she_ loved, would not proceed in such a way......despite the evidence was under her very nose. Or somehow lacked significance because by prior agreement with herself, her husband was without flaws---was perfection. Hmmm, what it would have cost her, to admit otherwise! What is it about Tom Clark that inspires this connubial kind of loyalty in his admirers, a bond that will not admit his faults? And, cororally, are we able to perceive a pattern, are these supporters in other ways similar to one another? Does the School of Clark consist of persons Contented with their Blind Spots? Maybe exercises this exhaustive aren't necessary. Let's simply ask that Kent or Dale or whomever put some piece of TC's up here where we can all read it, some piece that commands their admiration; and then we who would be interested in such engagement, can point out its shortcomings, and in this way, educate. Or, unlikely but possible, declare ourselves as a-brim as they with admiration, and bow out. Rider : If "De gustibus non disputandum" were the rubric proceeded under in this thread, there could be no dispute. If I recall aright, the dispute began with Steve Vincent remarking on internal conflicts --- taste-disputes --- in the TC piece on Whalen. It is TC's dispute with himself we address, then, a dispute he has made our business in making it public. And surely TC can stand the heat and not vacate the kitchen. Why are his fans so protective of him? Is there a mindlessness which he performs, that they feel he performs in their behalf? So that they do not mind him, but mind those who would remove the protective caul? db. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 15:40:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Question jetty MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hmm I disagree with the premise. A spiral is as bound as a circle. As a sine wave is bound. Interesting choice of words for a lepidopterist, ha? Any way Kent I won't leverage any hostile pseudonymies, ahoy, Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. -----Original Message----- From: KENT JOHNSON Nabokov once said that a spiral is a circle set free. What would be and whereto the forms of Authors set free? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 00:34:56 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Readers Organization: Re*Map Subject: Re: Unsolicited Submissions/Taos Poets Gathering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Erben (Art) wrote: > > Can anyone tell me what the "typical" letter accompanying an unsolicited > submission should look like? > > THere should be none. A writer should only submit work to publications s/he is reading and familiar with. Thus, the letter is not an attempt to get one's work "in print" but rather a statement of desire to enter into the dialogue the publication seeks to engage. At ReMap we get a hundred (yup!) submissions a year from folks who are not familiar with ReMap. This is obvious from the "generic" letters that accompany the work. As we struggle to stay in print ($) and (readers) we simply send this work back--. We're not trying to publish only those poets we know--but we do struggle to publish the poets who know the magazine. Todd Baron ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 00:38:12 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Readers Organization: Re*Map Subject: Re: Whalen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stephen Ellis wrote: > > Weird to think of published statements as taking up public (media?) space, > per Todd Baron's remarks; would it be better to leave public spaces empty, > and let thinking take care of itself in private? Geez: Let me put it more simply: The larger more widely read newspapers (LA TIMES, NY TIMES, etc. only allow a few poetry reviews per YEAR! THe public space I was talking about was these publications (Mr. Clark is widely published on those pages). My remark was only meant to say "IF indeed there is LIMITED space--the reviews shold be well enaged with the work--try to help the work get new readers--and not do otherwise. That is if the reviews are written by those who care to engage in the dialogue of the work most poets try to produce. That is--DIALOGUE! Todd Baron ps: Thus--don't waste "public space" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 18:01:45 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: the devil in tom clark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/6/99 11:43:59 AM, dcmb@METRO.NET writes: << If I recall aright, the dispute began with Steve Vincent remarking on internal conflicts --- taste-disputes --- in the TC piece on Whalen. >> David: I believe I said the Chronicle critic's piece left me pisst off - which 'en vulgatis' (fairly enough) might be considered a dispute of "taste." But taste in some over-refined literary sense, I don't think so. Clark just missed the Bear, preferring for whatever malevolent or, perhaps, some innocent intent, to quibble in the scat. However it sounds like you want to go to war or continue one. The 100 Year Civil Guerre de Clark - I can see it into the far future. But is that one - the focus on Clark - worth the yield? In this case, perhaps a contrary without a progression? I think I'll stick to Whalen, Grenier and other lights instead of what I sense will be bleak. Cheers, Stephen Vincent ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 18:06:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: hassen Subject: Re: Spiral question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit kent, a snip of my altere re this spiral, my thots concerning the author's spiral & whether it be in or out, [un]control, perhaps nothing, but for some silly reason feel the urge to spew forth, so sorry: >> ship horns hail tom in the moorings, subtle from the cove. two weeks drown his statements in cold wind, peculiar lines everyday without fail, away and or back, rocking with pedestrian offers, angry stares in any month. what's to be done with diffuse stars on dimpled cots? what said, word rot? thoughts ferment on a thing too sweet to taste. there's the sloth, timely even. precision, a machine on a branch, one that climbs. tom turns down, climbs downward. from the eye, all is extraneous. refractions are maybe superb in memory. maybe, he says "may be spiral choices are adorned with lights & strands of magnets. maybe i am a bubble too." (1/13/99) << be well be! hassen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 17:40:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Getting out of the bind MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT David: I would like to say that I am not a member of any Tom Clark school. I am not even a "fan" of his work, not knowing it that well. My point is that there is evidence hereabouts of knee-jerk reaction to his persona and writings and that this stems from old and stale history. The fact that his Jacket review of Whalen is perfectly adoring of its subject proves my point. There is nothing at all about the review that calls _anything_ in Whalen into question! It's OK, I guess, to hold a grudge against Tom Clark for his past tirades against Langpo, but time has passed those polemics by, really. Why rail agaisnt the man for calling attention to the genius of a neglected poet most of us agree richly deserves the credit? In any case, this little exchange has proven fruitful, for I'm told it has prodded John Tranter to plan a special feature on Whalen a la very fine Spicer feature edited by Chris Alexander in Jacket #7. Hurrah! And Jordan, true about spirals being bounded, as all forms are bound to something or by something. But some bounded things _bind_ more than other bounded things. Obviously. And as for the pseudonym, I would see that as a kind of closed circle-- a circle covering over another one, so actually not much gained there. There must be something more: A way of imagining writing like Smithson had begun to imagine art. Authors are flat circles, like coins, tossed into a dead lake. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 19:48:04 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Nagler Subject: The Barn (a play) - July 15th and 16th MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To anyone who will be in the SF bay area on July 15th and 16th my play/performance piece 'The Barn' is being performed at 8:00 pm at 379 40th St. (between telegraph and Broadway) in north Oakland Poetics List People get in free. Running time is about one and a half hours. chris nagler "The Barn is a play about a family of voices. The voice, and the family, as shelters and constraints. Domestic tasks as the physical equivalents of fantasies -- the impossibility of containing either within pastoral romance, but the constant desire for this. It is a play about the possibility of being far away from the landscape, and the voice." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 00:46:41 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: the devil in us all Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Perhaps "flawed thoughts", Mr. Bromige, are those that lack the "inconsistencies" and "unresolved conflicts" that many of us in the world live with (you know, there is that whole nasty business with Blake about contradictions). While your confidence in the post below reveals a singular spirit of high minded moral and aesthetic integrity, I assume that if anyone is interested they can go to JACKET's site and wrestle with TC's flawed prose on their own, or, better yet, read one of his books. The point I think some of us wish to make is that Whalen should be the focus of discussion, (his own twisted inconsistencies aside), since, as I hope, his work, tentativley, fueled the impulse toward greater engagement with this thread. I for one would prefer to see this conversation move toward an evaluative or critical discussion of OVERTIME, since it is the first representative sampling of that Beat Abbot's poems in many years. Devotion, by the way, doesn't create blind spots so much as highten with critical measure another's flaws. But I will defend my teacher's name when he is unjustly accused of doing a hatchet job. Only a handful of people read such ugly claims into that review. (Philip himself was pleased with it!). You and others want to turn the conversation away from the positive critical possibilities that could attend a discussion of Whalen's work by slugging through the same old drudge. Let TC continue to deal with the consequences of his past deeds. For some reason, many of you here are dealing with those consequences too, instead of attending more urgent issues of poetry. I've heard every opinion about the man and his work from those whose confidence only measures value by the approval of greater markets than themselves. The hypocritical gestures of consistency make nice rhetorical poses, but I think the stance below is too transparent to be read by anyone as anything more than a reductive, impotent war dance. I'll end my own rhetorical appeal with a poem of Philip's from "Many Happy Returns" written, it says, for Tom Clark: THE LETTER TO THOMAS CLARK 22: VII:71 FROM BOLINAS WHERE HE SAT BESIDE ME TO HELP WRITE IT Tom Clark Waco, Texas (crossed out. All our addresses crossed out) Dear Tom. Received your letter & no mistake about the address or the sender (name of Angelica) but you look just the least bit changed. Due to this minuscule point and the fragility of the ink, And the wrong time of day all over town It was not the phone. but (the fragility . . . . of one's own neuromuscular mechanism where that S W A M P ) Yours truly, Dad. David Bromige wrote: >thus Kent Johnson. Now tell me, Kent (and others, should you know), is the >List's reaction to Tom Clark utterly without grounds, has he been selected >at random for extraordinary punishments, "demonized" as Kent would have it >metrely through bad luck and the need for a scapegoat.........Or is the >rhetoric flourished in the citation above, a way to distract us from some >pretty obvious flaws? > >And if so, in the name of _what_ is this rhetoric flourished? Tell me, >fellow-listlings, if you can : does TC command such loyalty in some, that >they will overlook what any person of average I.Q. (I allude to myself f >and f) would recognize in TC's writings as major inconsistencies, >unresolved conflicts, flawed thought.....or what have you? > >Excuse the upcoming divagation : I had occasion once to write to the wife >of a man who had abandoned all reason and logic to castigate me publicly. >My response to this rudeness, at first reasoning, became itself rude. To >which she now objected, inserting herself into the exchange. To which I >responded by remarking the several provocations. To this she did not >respond. To her, it was as though the words her man had uttered, that >started it all, did not exist--had not been uttered. Presumably because >somebody _she_ loved, would not proceed in such a way......despite the >evidence was under her very nose. Or somehow lacked significance because by >prior agreement with herself, her husband was without flaws---was >perfection. Hmmm, what it would have cost her, to admit otherwise! > >What is it about Tom Clark that inspires this connubial kind of loyalty in >his admirers, a bond that will not admit his faults? > >And, cororally, are we able to perceive a pattern, are these supporters in >other ways similar to one another? Does the School of Clark consist of >persons Contented with their Blind Spots? > >Maybe exercises this exhaustive aren't necessary. Let's simply ask that >Kent or Dale or whomever put some piece of TC's up here where we can all >read it, some piece that commands their admiration; and then we who would >be interested in such engagement, can point out its shortcomings, and in >this way, educate. Or, unlikely but possible, declare ourselves as a-brim >as they with admiration, and bow out. > >Rider : If "De gustibus non disputandum" were the rubric proceeded under in >this thread, there could be no dispute. If I recall aright, the dispute >began with Steve Vincent remarking on internal conflicts --- taste-disputes >--- in the TC piece on Whalen. It is TC's dispute with himself we address, >then, a dispute he has made our business in making it public. > >And surely TC can stand the heat and not vacate the kitchen. Why are his >fans so protective of him? Is there a mindlessness which he performs, that >they feel he performs in their behalf? So that they do not mind him, but >mind those who would remove the protective caul? > >db. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 20:59:44 -0700 Reply-To: waldreid@ziplink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: WaldReid Organization: Carey & Diane's Place Subject: poet from Estonia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The following letter from a poet in Estonia came to me via a friend who is a fiction writer and didn't know how to respond. I thought someone on the list might want to correspond with Indrek Tart directly (e-mail address at end) and/or send some small press publications to a lovely cause (read through to the end of the letter). Diane Wald >><< Dear Ms. W, >> I’m a poet and cultural studies researcher (b. 1946) in Estonia at the >> Baltic sea. >> Estonia has through its rise of the national consciousness from the >> first part of XIXth century (after abandoning the serfdom) built its >> identity around the Estonian language in which poetry had played a >> leading role. Especially under colonizing rules of Czar-Russia up to >> 1918 and under Soviets (1944-91) poetry has been the most secret >> language of the nation to keep its mind safe and sane. >> In 1992 I was in the States in International Writing Program at the >> University of Iowa which is now in unfavor and will be closed. As I >> understand it was the main gate for the States to host foreign writers >> and let them know the States better. It were very useful three months >> for me. I visited mine pen-friends and talked a lot of poetries >> situation in both countries. My library of English-language poetry is >> quite great. >> Now after the unrest years of transition (I personally had to change a >> profession of the physicist into a social scientist one) Estonia seems >> to be settled into the Western way of living again (Western way of >> thinking here wasn’t never lost, even under the Soviets we were regarded >> as the more developed Western part of that country). And along with mine >> research of Estonia’s poetical development in 1851-1998 I’m again >> engaged with thoughts of more international views on poetry’s being. >> Poetry is not a capitalist business-like commodity for sale but >> something preserving nation and humanity by itself under different >> pressures of times and its share in the book production titles in >> developed and transitional countries is not minimal (2-6%). Thus it >> functions for survival of the nations (and communities, e.g. Estonians >> exiled to the West in 1944 had to rebuild Estonian literature in abroad >> and it was successful project until the end of the Cold War). Also I’m >> thinking of generational likeliness (poetry of poets born around the >> same time) and the influence of age, gender and global cultural climate >> (if that exists?) on poets’ writing. Are poets just lost souls from the >> past or future or gaining importance only due ideals practitioned in >> locality (abstractions pressed into local language use) or contrary the >> locality makes them to overgrow it and become citizens of the Heavenly >> Thought? Also, how our living (life-world in sociological terms) in >> language makes poetry unnecessary? Etc. Etc. >> ***As a small start I’m looking for fresher poetry from the States to >> compile a small anthology and translate it into Estonian. I hope that >> along with Estonian Endowment for the Arts (we call it >> Kultuurkapital=Cultural Capital) there may be interest from US side too. >> In 1988-93 I published several translation columns of American, British, >> Welsh poetry in our newspapers but now this tradition has disappeared as >> poems are not fresh news for the papers, thus unsellable. But poetry >> chapbook publishing flowering in Estonia has no precedents. If You could >> and want to take part in my adventure please send Your freshist (or >> best) volumes to the address of our Centre for Cultural Studies below. >> Or just write me of Yours views. >> We already are friendly souls in poetry and poetry could save the world, >> not money or political tricks. >> >> In full friendship, >> >> Indrek Tart >> >> P.S. I found Your address in A Direstory of Poets & Writers on-line >> version. >> -- >> Indrek Tart >> senior researcher >> Centre for Contemporary Cultural Studies >> Tallinn Pedagogical University >> Narva Rd. 25, Tallinn 10120, ESTONIA >> Phone: 372-6409 463 >> Fax: 372-6409 118 >> E-mail: itart@tpu.ee >> Dear Ms. Wald, You could spread my call for help in any convenient way. I'm really interested in which kind of poetry is written and read in this Networked Societies Age and how poetry transforms under those new pressures and opportunities. As I'm convinced of poetry's special role in maintaining mental health of the mankind. I'm interested in Yours list too, by now I'm more looking developments in British & Irish Poetry list lead by my friend Ric Caddell who is librarian and head of the Basil Bunting Poetry Centre in Durham (UK). Also in Boston area lives my long time friend Marge Piercy who's e-mail has been lost in my computer crash last year. If You could find it out it will be marvelous (in A Directory of Poets & Fiction Writers there is only a homepage of her but non e-mail in it. Best wishes, Indrek Tart ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 21:51:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: franklin bruno Subject: kimberly lyons Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" anyone-- A while back (in the last month or so) someone posted here advertising a chapbook by Kimberly Lyons. I seem to have deleted the message, and can't find it in the archives. Could someone w/ ordering info please send same my way? b/c fine--but the next day or two would be best, as I'll be offline from 7/10 onward. thanks, fjb ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 22:36:32 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Nelson Subject: just finished engineering poetry webpage Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I just finished putting some of my engineering poetry into a hypertext format. Any thoughts on the page would be just keen or more than keen. creativity.bgsu.edu/courses/art586/Sum99/students2/Jason/index.html cheers, Jason Nelson _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 01:45:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: whalen, In-Reply-To: <001b01bec79a$fb4ef7a0$978e0fce@tenacre> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'll tell you about the first Whalen reading I heard. It was in a big room at UBC during the '63 poetry summer of legend. After about fifteen minutes, Whalen could tell that a lot of people in the room could not handle his discontinuous poems with white space between the lines, so he stopped and sd it wd not bother him if the people who were bored and uncomfortable went on out to the cafeteria or some such place. He would take a five minute break and let folks get out with no guilt. Then everyone that was left, about half the crowd, skoonched down close, and Whalen read for about an hour and a half,. and it was just wonderful--and you know: I think it was even more wonderful for the kind and sharp action he'd taken. George Bowering. , fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:58:19 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Franco Subject: BOSTON ALTERNATIVE POETRY CONFERENCE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ANNOUNCING: THE 2nd ANNUAL BOSTON ALTERNATIVE POETRY CONFERENCE JULY 23-25, 1999 The Art Institute of Boston at Lesley 700 Beacon St. Boston, MA SCHEDULE OF EVENTS: as of 6/30/99 Friday, July 23 6:30 p.m. - Night Reading - Andrew Schelling, C.D. Wright, Michael Franco, Anselm Berrigan, Magdalena Zurawski, Daniel Bouchard, Donna de la Perriere Saturday, July 24 9:00 a.m. - William Bronk Reading - (Jack Kimball, Donna de la Perriere and others) 10:00 a.m. - Morning Reading - Douglas Rothschild, Sean Cole, Diane Wald, Barbara Claire Freeman, Richard Dillon, Brendan Lorber 12:00 Noon - Lunch Break 1:00 p.m. - Frank Ohara Reading - (Anne Waldman, Jordan Davis, Douglas Rothschild and others) 2:00 p.m. - Alan Gilbert - "Poetry as Document" 2:30 p.m. - Afternoon Reading - Tina Darragh, Beth Anderson, Peter Ganick, Drew Gardner, Chris Stroffolino, Alan Gilbert, Patrick Doud, David Kirschenbaum, Sam Truitt, Ed Barrett,Ammiel Alcalay 5:00 p.m. - Dinner Break 6:00 p.m. - Maria Damon - "Something About Bob Kaufman and the Poet's Labor" 7:00 p.m. - Night Reading - Anne Waldman, Leslie Scalapino, John Wieners, Gerrit Lansing, Michael Gizzi, Kristin Prevallet Sunday, July 25 9:00 a.m. - Emily Dickinson Reading - (Joseph Lease, Jack Kimball and others) 10:00 a.m. - Morning Reading - Jack Kimball, Prageeta Sharma, Jacques Debrot, Heather Scott Peterson, Aaron Kiely 12:00 Noon - Lunch Break 1:00 p.m. - Afternoon Reading - "Ways to Read" (Michael Basinski, Wendy Kramer, Kenneth Goldsmith) 2:00 p.m. - Afternoon Reading - Raffael de Gruttola, Tadashi Kondo, Wilfred Croteau (renku and haiga)- Andrew Schelling reads from his "Road to Ocosingo" 3:00 p.m. - Afternoon Reading - Lewis Warsh, Will Alexander, Jordan Davis, Henry Gould, Damon Krukowski, Jim Behrle, Marcella Durand 5:00 p.m. - Dinner Break 6:00 p.m. - David Shapiro - "A Radiant Pluralism: For Poetry" 7:00 p.m. - Night Reading - David Shapiro, Lyn Hejinian, Forrest Gander, Joseph Lease, Lisa Jarnot CONFERENCE REGISTRATION: Weekend Pass: $40 Saturday or Sunday only: $18 Single Readings: $7 Student discounts available. Tickets available at the door or by pre-registration. For more registration info. contact Aaron Kiely at this email, by phone at 413-586-4532 or at PO Box 441517, Somerville, MA 02144 Thank You! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:17:38 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gerald Schwartz Subject: Re: Spiral question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit metaphormetaphormetaphor movement from semi-intransitive semi- consciousness to CONScientization act act act of knowing IS A SPIRAL Sequence The Cyclical Movents! Require A Big Push! Genuine The Dialogue! Move up the spiral with expression cognate the object or fail to unveil the CRUSH Gerald Schwartz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 05:26:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Organization: Sun Moon Books Subject: Re: Unsolicited Submissions/Taos Poets Gathering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We are currently not reading new manuscripts. DM David Erben (Art) wrote: > > Can anyone tell me what the "typical" letter accompanying an unsolicited > submission should look like? > > And... did anyone happen to attend the gathering of Native American poets > that occurred in Taos two or three weeks ago? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 12:13:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Annie Finch Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 3 Jul 1999 to 4 Jul 1999 (#1999-127) In-Reply-To: <01JD6OPDFWIU90FF3M@po.muohio.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Now, that's what I call poetry! What's E.A.C.? --Annie >Song from E. A. C. > > >Oh maiden, bind the stalks! >Aroo lay, aroo lay! >Oh maiden, the stalks will be bound! >Aloor, aroo lay, aroo lay! > >Oh youngman, carry the sheaves! >Aroo lay, aroo lay! >Oh youngman, the sheaves will be carried! >Aloor, aroo lay, aroo lay! > >Oh maiden, unbind the stalks! >Aroo lay, aroo lay! >Oh maiden, the stalks are unbound! >Aloor, aroo lay, aroo lay! > >Oh youngman, assemble the sheaves! >Aroo lay, aroo lay! >Oh youngman, the sheaves are assembled! >Aloor, aroo lay, aroo lay! > >Oh maiden, the sheaves and the stalks! >Aroo lay, aroo lay! >Oh youngman, the stalks and the sheaves! >Aloor, aroo lay, aroo lay! > > ______________________________ Annie Finch (http://muohio.edu/~finchar) Cincinnati, Ohio Associate Professor of English/Creative Writing Miami University ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:21:53 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Carnivocal: A Celebration of Sound Poetry / Edited by Stephen Scobie & Douglas Barbour Comments: To: poetryetc@listbot.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Sound Poetry CD, Carnivocal, Explodes the Boundaries of Poetry Red Deer, AB, June 24, 1999 - While all types of poetry experiment with language and meaning, no type of poetry pushes at the boundaries of language and meaning quite as much as sound poetry. Most people come to poetry through the medium of the written word, but sound poetry offers a completely different, more sensory experience. Sound poetry cannot be written down, cannot be captured into writing - it must be heard. In order t= o fully understand it and to capture its evocative power, listeners must sit back in a comfortable, reclining chair and place this unique CD into their CD player. As Edita Petrauskaite, the Executive Director of the League of Canadian Poets, says, "Close your eyes, sit back and let the poetry take you." Sound poetry has evolved into an experimental and powerful medium and it explores all forms of sound, not just the varieties of sound which form human speech. However, as Carnivocal editors and sound poets Stephen Scobie and Doug Barbour say: "Sound poetry is the celebration of all the expressive possibilities of the human voice." Sound poetry dates back at least to the experiments of the Dada poets such as Kurt Schwitters and Hugo Ball. In Canada, it has been string since the 1960s, when bp Nichol and bill bissett began exploring and reinventing its traditions. In the 1990s, a new generation of sound poets has revitalized the Canadian tradition and on this CD their voices sound alongside many of the best-known earlier practitioners. Carnivocal presents a range of contemporary solo performers including: bp Nichol, bill bissett, Stephen Cain, Gerry Shikatani, Claude Gauvreau, Christian B=F6k, Penn Kemp, W. Mark Sutherland, Richard Truhlar, Penn Kemp, Paul Dutton, Steve McCaffery, & Steven Ross Smith; and various ensembles, including a classic recording by The Horsemen and Owen Sound,as well as groups such as Re:Sounding, First Draft and the exciting new sounds of Verbomotorhead. Douglas Barbour and Stephen Scobie first began performing together as the poetry vocal ensemble Re:Sounding in the mid-1970s. As well-known poets and critics, they have produced between the two of them over twenty volumes of poetry and criticism. Stephen Scobie won the Governor General's Award for Poetry and Douglas Barbour won the Stephan G. Stephansson Award for Poetry. Carnivocal: A Celebration of Sound Poetry / Edited by Stephen Scobie & Douglas Barbour Published by Red Deer Press & The Omikron Group/ Distributed by Raincoast Bo= oks 0-88995-210-8 * Compact Disk * CAN $16.95 / USA $12.95 In the United States address orders to: General Distribution Services Inc. 85 River Rock Drive, Suite 202 Buffalo NY 14207 Tel: 1-800-805-1083 =46ax: 1-800-481-6207 In The United Kingdom address orders to: Lavis Marketing 73 Lime Walk, Headington Oxford OX3 7AD UK Tel: (01865) 67575 / +44 1865 67575 =46ax: (01865) 750079 / + 44 1865 750079 In Australia address orders to: John Reed Book Distribution 57 Sir Thomas Mitchell Drive Davidson NSW 2085 Australia Tel: 61-2-9939-3041 =46ax: 61-2-9453-4545 In New Zealand address orders to: Jay Books PO Box 30566 / (44b Victoria Street) Lower Hut, Alicetown New Zealand Tel/Fax: 64-04-586-0226 Douglas Barbour Department of English University of Alberta Edmonton Alberta Canada T6G 2E5 (h) [780] 436 3320 (b) [780] 492 0521 http://www.ualberta.ca/~dbarbour/dbhome.htm In the new dispensation, conspiracy Will be replaced by Collusion, the diction of the age Filtered through the great sieve of particulars To be sorted out later, Ann Lauterbach ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 14:23:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Patrick @Silverplume" Subject: FW: Gore, AIDS drugs, South Africa: summary (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Chris, could you please post this disturbing bit of news? Thanks, Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen Daniel M > +++++ > > Gore, AIDS drugs, and South Africa > > AIDS activists disrupted Al Gore's announcement of his presidential > candidacy in Carthage, Tennessee on June 16 and at subsequent campaign > events in protest of the Vice President's role in preventing AIDS drugs > from > reaching South Africans with AIDS. The Clinton Administration has sided > with American pharmaceutical companies over the desperate need of 22.5 > million South Africans with HIV, most of whom can't afford necessary > medicines for common AIDS infections like tuberculosis and pneumonia. > > South Africans with HIV need cheap generic AIDS drugs because name-brand > drugs, from which the American drug makers would reap huge profits, cost > $12,000 per year. The average annual income in South Africa is $2,600 per > year. > > To combat the growing public health emergency South Africa and other > developing countries have sought to enact "compulsory licensing" - local > licenses to produce generic versions of patented medicines. Compulsory > licensing, legal under current international trade agreements, would lower > drug prices as much as 90%. > > But in recent negotiations with newly elected South African President > Thabo > Mbeki, Gore has threatened severe international trade sanctions against > South Africa if it allows production of generic drugs. On April 30, Gore > himself authorized a review of South African policies on compulsory > licensing and set a September 30 deadline for South Africa to comply or > suffer sanctions. Gore is co-chair of the US/South Africa Binational > Commission. > > Gore announced this policy in cooperation with the Pharmaceutical Research > and Manufacturer's Association, which includes huge drug companies like > Bristol-Myers Squibb, Glaxo, Pfizer, and Johnson and Johnson. One of the > drugs South Africa wants to produce generically is the Taxol, used to > treat > cancer. Taxol was developed by the US National Institutes of Health, > i.e., > at taxpayer expense, but the Bush Administration handed exclusive rights > for > Taxol over to Bristol-Myers Squibb, a private corporation. > > Gore's personal connections to the pharmaceutical industry include David > Beier (domestic policy advisor), former head lobbyist for Genentech; Tony > Podesta (advisor), lobbyist for the Pharmaceutical Manufacturer's > Association; Tom Downey (confidant), lobbyist for Merck; and Peter Knight > (fundraiser), former Schering-Plough lobbyist. > > The policy on South Africa's right to produce generic drugs constitutes a > "free-trade" issue, with the US seeking international protections for > patents owned by American corporations ("intellectual property rights"). > Other countries under pressure from the US include Thailand and India, > which > like South Africa face an enormous public health crisis because of AIDS. > In > nine southern African nations, more than 20% of people between the ages of > 15 and 49 are infected with HIV. Gore's actions may cost millions of > lives. > > In April, AIDS activists organized a demo in DC (at the Pharmaceutical > Research and Manufacturers of America office) in protest of the > Clinton/Gore > free-trade "Africa Growth and Opportunity Act" and in favor of Rep. Jesse > Jackson Jr.'s "HOPE for Africa Act" with 21 folks arrested for civil > disobedience. > > The AIDS activist groups who have protested Gore's actions include AIDS > Drugs For Africa, ACT UP, and Health GAP (Global Access Project), an > international network of public health advocates. ACT UP Washington's > Wayne > Turner attended (with the backing of the DC Green Party) a June 28 > demonstration in Philadelphia, at a major Gore campaign fundraiser. > > There are few clearer and more disturbing examples of the Clinton > Administration's tendency to favor corporate greed over human need. If > Gore > blocked AIDS drugs in the US, he'd be denounced as a genocidal despot. > Instead, he's the Democratic Party frontrunner for President. > > Scott McLarty > Washington, DC > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 20:56:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: THING....(TYPO CORRECTION.... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Much confusion here i suppossee blame it on the heat, or the broken fingers.... but actually the event is SATURDAY JULY 10!!!!!! Nott july 11th und not july 19th (which i think is george mcgovern's birthday) sorry about any mixed up confusion.... On Fri, 2 Jul 1999, Chris Stroffolino wrote: > Here's a THING I'm involved in.... > There will be FREE DRINKS > > Reuben reubin and LEE Klein > invite you to celebrate the publication of > > CAME LIKE IT WENT > by Greg Fuchs (buckdown books) > > UNLOCKING THE EXITS > by Eliot Katz (Coffee House Press) > > VERTICAL's CURRENCY: NEW & SELECTED POEMS > by Joel Lewis (Talisman > > THE FUTURE IS NOW b Elizabeth Morse (Linear Arts) > > STEALER'S WHEEL by Chris Stroffolino (Hard Press) > > Saturday July 19, THE VIP ROOM IN the new CHINA CLUB > 268 West 47th St. (btw. b'way & 8th) > > Doors open 10PM; "cocktails" 10-11 > > ------------- > We'll probably all read like 2 poems or something too... > > If can't make it, you may find my book in POSMAN's BOOKSTORE > (University Place) and St. Marks may still have it... > You could also STEAL it from BARNES & NOBLE.... > > ----chris > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 23:31:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Resent-From: Alan Sondheim Comments: Originally-From: Alan Sondheim From: Alan Sondheim Subject: NOISE news :: peforations 20 (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII @@@@ @@@ @@@@@@@@ @@@ @@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@ @@!@!@@@ @@! @@@ @@! !@@ @@! !@!!@!@! !@! @!@ !@! !@! !@! @!@ !!@! @!@ !@! !!@ !!@@!! @!!!:! !@! !!! !@! !!! !!! !!@!!! !!!!!: !!: !!! !!: !!! !!: !:! !!: :!: !:! :!: !:! :!: !:! :!: :: :: ::::: :: :: :::: :: :: :::: :: : : : : : :: : : : :: :: "The bit of noise, the small random element, transforms one system or one order into another." M. Serres "Between the rationality for which the analysis speaks and the law that history repeats there remains a gap, infinitesimal to be sure, but fundamental" M. De Certeau ---------------------------------------------------------- Welcome to NOISE NEWS, a notification publication of PERFORATIONS and Public Domain, Inc. a non-profit organization devoted to examinations of the crossing points of art, theory, technology and community. (see www.pd.org) *** *** *** CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS: PERFORATIONS 20 LAST STORIES contact: Robert Cheatham / zeug@pd.org Ginger Dendy / gingered@negia.net All types of media will be considered, but especially approaches which explore new relations between content and form. Each issue of PERFORATIONS (we now call them 'nodes' since each thematic is an ongoing site of investigation/creativity) includes straighforward articles as well as artistic web projects. Deadlines are fluid. Contact above editors for more information. PERFORATIONS may be viewed at: http://www.pd.org/perforations/perf-topics.html ________________________________________________ LAST STORIES Mostly it seems they're all we have, really. After the 'procession of priests' (theoria) has precessed past our increasingly narrow attention span; after the bombs have dropped (and before, for that matter); when the guy in the ape suit is throwing the bone up in '2001' (goodbye Stanley) and when we catch it in the hear, and gnaw, we who live in the future, on those bones, those very ancient lineaments, we who are sighting along the 'scope hairs, looking for the next target of acquisition...well, stories are what we started with and stories are what we still have. But just to make it a little more focused and to satisfy our own need for eschatology (both singular and global): why don't we say that we only have a limited amount of time to live (after all is said and done, this may come of news to some of us) or that the Third Millennium will come a cropper and leave us poor humans face down (of course, no one really believes that...but we're telling stories remember?) Pehaps you have a last will and testiment you would like to send us, or a death bed confession, or a lie you can't stop believing in but will be glad when it's all over, or that peculiar need to expose yourself, whistleblow on yourself, that often attacks those at the end. Or maybe you have a happy story of the end/End wherein your life flashes before you (and hence us since you will send it to us) and it was a photo finish, but a good one nevertheless, set'm up Finnegan; or the species rounds the corner finally into its Golden Dawn, every Thing finds its place, the animals speak; or you have a Final Theory of Everything at the end which redeems us all and makes the whole trip worthwhile... Personal stories, theoretical stories, endings which are beginnings, eschatological fairy tales, lies (the end of truth), fables (the lying truth after the end), happy endings, tragic endings, tales with nothing but pictures for those of us who find it increasingly hard to read here in the future and thus closer to the end.... send them all to us. while there's still some time left. ________________________________ PERFORAIONS 18, RELICS, is now up and running at : http:// www.pd.org/perforations/perf-topics.html for info on new material added click on WHAT'S NEW at www.pd.org. It's not always up to date so feel free to browse around. Public Domain, Inc. is a 501 (c) 3 not for profit organization. http://www.pd.org info@pd.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 16:04:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: * A R E A D I N G * (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 09:29:00 -0400 From: Gary Sullivan To: poetics@acsu.buffalo.edu Subject: * A R E A D I N G * C O R R E S P O N D E N C E T P o I h o f n e e t t i i m c a s c y N A D A G O R D O N + G A R Y S U L L I V A N Sunday, July 18 Zinc Bar, 90 West Houston (at La Guardia/West Broadway) 6:37 p.m. * $3.00 Beginning in the fall of 1998, Nada Gordon, then living in Tokyo, and Gary Sullivan, who'd moved to New York the previous year, began a daily correspondence that culminated in April of 1999 with Nada's return to the U.S. after 11 years in Japan. Prior to ever meeting one another, the couple produced and exchanged 1,000s of pages of letters, poems, anecdotes, theoretical musings, gossip, bibliomancy--anything & everything to keep their connection open and abuzz despite being halfway around the globe from each other. Nada and Gary will read poems and other excerpts from their correspondence. NADA GORDON is the author of _rodomontade_, _more hungry_ and _lip_, and co-edited the magazine _Aya_. A new collection, _Foriegnn Bodie_, will be published this fall. Her writing has appeared in numerous periodicals over the years including _Chain_, _Jimmy & Lucy's House of K_, _Printed Matter_ and (from their exchange) _The East Village Poetry Web_ at: http://www.geocities.com/~theeastvillage/a6/gordon/a.htm GARY SULLIVAN is the author of _Dead Man_, and edits Detour Press and _Read.Me_. _The Art of Poetry_ is forthcoming later this year. His writing and cartoons have appeared in numerous places, including _The Gertrude Stein Awards 1994-1995_, the _o.blek_ "New Coast" issue, _Avec_, _Rain Taxi_, _The SF Weekly_, _Talisman_, _Tool: A Magazine_, _The World_ and (from their exchange) _The East Village Poetry Web_ at: http://interserver.miyazaki-med.ac.jp/~east/t5/sullivan/a.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:42:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lowther,John" Subject: FW: Merce Marathon on NYC TV MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain i'm poaching this off the silence list wish i had access to this - hope that some of you do > According to > http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/arts/cunniungham-dance-film.html > (and yes, the misspelling of "cunningham" is part of the URL), the Metro > Learning channel will be showing 42 hours of Merce Cunningham dances, > documentaries, and interviews next week, Monday through Saturday from > 9:30 P.M. to 3:30 A.M. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 16:42:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Brook Subject: Revolutionary Romanticism from City Lights MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit City Lights Books, for which I work, has just published a new anthology, REVOLUTIONARY ROMANTICISM, edited by Max Blechman. Some on the list may know Max, and I was the in-house editor on this book. In any case, there's much here that should appeal. What follows is a little write-up, including the table of contents, some of the back cover copy, and ordering information. There's also a link to a review that has just come out in the San Francisco Bay Guardian. Regards, James Brook - - - - - - - - - - - REVOLUTIONARY ROMANTICSM A Drunken Boat Anthology Edited by Max Blechman 250 pgs. / $15.95 / ISBN 0-87286-351-4 / City Lights Books Individual orders: http://www.citylights.com/CLorder.html REVOLUTIONARY ROMANTICISM draws on almost two centuries of intertwined traditions of cultural and political subversion. In this rich collection of writings by artists, scholars, and revolutionaries, the transgressions of the past are recaptured and transvalued for the benefit of the struggles of today and tomorrow. See the San Francisco Bay Guardian review at http://www.sfbg.com/lit/july99/reviews/politics.html City Lights Books 261 Columbus Avenue San Francisco, CA 94133 http://www.citylights.com "Drunken Boat is a courageous and worthy effort to maintain alive, in a difficult period, unfettered critical thinking. It ought to be supported by all who care about freedom and justice." - Cornelius Castoriadis, author of The Imaginary Institution of Society "In a period when politics is dreary and political art cliched, Drunken Boat is brilliantly alive and unconventional. It summons up a world where subversion spelled art and art spelled liberation; but Drunken Boat is more than a blast from the past: it speaks to the present. Drunken Boat is the vessel of choice for those bored with chartered cruises and organized day-trips." - Russell Jacoby, author of The Last Intellectuals CONTENTS Preface - "This Is Our High Argument" The Revolutionary Dream of Early German Romanticism Max Blechman On the Subject of Romantic Women Annie Le Brun William Blake: Revolutionary Romantic Peter Marshall Revolting Language: British Romantics in an Age of Revolution Maurice Hindle Romanticism and Revolution: The Vision of Jules Michelet Arthur Mitzman Ruins and Foundation Stones: The Paris Commune and the Destruction of the Vendome Column Christopher Winks William Morris: The Politics of Romance Miguel Abensour The Mountain of Truth Martin Green Erich Muehsam: In Defense of Literary High Treason Christopher Winks The Artist in the Future State Erich Muehsam Surrealism and Romanticism Marie-Dominique Massoni Under the Star of Romanticism: Walter Benjamin and Herbert Marcuse Michael Loewy An Episode in a Fragmentary History: Surrealism and the 1946 Revolution in Haiti Michael Richardson Debord in the Resounding Cataract of Time Daniel Blanchard Theses on Revolutionary Romanticism Max Blechman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:24:25 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: New Angel for the devil in us all MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Considering the conversation, I dug Tom Clark's New Angel from the barn when I was down in Portsmouth this weekend. Printed December 1986 by Bloody Twin Press Three Poems, three fold folio, slight rag paper edge, two color handset type, includes raised illustration by Tom Clark of what looks to be Phillip Whalen in starry landscape. Limited edition. 5 left. Or put it off and receive one with an extra-special, unique, wren's rorschach on cover. Good to frame, holds a mean coffee stain in monster truck speed. $10P/P for individuals mentioning the poetics list. Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 23:12:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Magee Subject: Re: RACE & CLASS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is just a bibliographical note, but I didn't want to not notice a note on DNA several days back and it brought to mind quite a long posting to this list on the subject when I first joined, something about the pseudo-scientific junk being passed off as research in certain U.S. academic circles. This was news to me, as is Jack Barnes' answer to a worker's question about THE BELL CURVE in the transcript of a Talk included in CAPITALISM'S WORLD DISORDER: WORKING CLASS POLITICS AT THE MILLENIUM (Ed. Steve Clark, Pathfinder Press, NY, 1999). Here's the question and some of the answer: "Comment: You had some things to say earlier today about Yale economists. I wonder what your opinion is of the Harvard professors who came up with THE BELL CURVE. I'm especially interested in why it is that THE BELL CURVE has made such a splash in the public debate in the media. Why is it every decade or so, it seems, this theory of genetically determined intellectual superiority or racial superiority gets regurgitated and debated and debunked, and then comes back in another form? Response: If my memory serves me right, I think only one of the authors--Richard Hernrnstein--was a Harvard professor; he just died. I think Murray is currently hired by one of the reactionary think tanks in Washington, D.C.--the American Enterprise Institute. [One page content paraphrase]. Now let's say it another way: We're rich. We're rich because we're smart. You can tell we're smart because we're rich. Because we're smart and rich, our kids are smart, and are going to be rich too. But there are a lot of people who aren't getting rich, and they can't seem to accept the fact that this is simply because their forebears were dumb. The liberals--those who are rich and those who aren't--know this and live by it, but are embarrassed to say so. Most people, however, mistakenly think there is some connection between what we're doing to get rich and their own deteriorating quality of life. We're getting more isolated in that sense, and a little nervous about anyone wanting to take our privileges away. But we want to enjoy being rich. There is nothing to feel guilty about. We're rich because we're smart. That is about the long and short of it. Then the book ends up with some proposals about what to do with all of us "at the bottom end of the cognitive ability distribution"--orphanages and so on, some of the things we have discussed already. If we can "face reality about the underclass," the book says, then we can provide "the opportunity for everyone, not just the lucky ones, to live a satisfying life." That is, you can learn to like being poor (or to be made to pretend to like it). But this is only possible, the book says, if we get rid of all the social programs and legislation that fly in the face of accepting this reality, such as the minimum wage; affirmative action; more money for public education ("For many people, there is nothing they can learn that will repay the cost of the teaching"--my favorite sentence in the book); the extension of Social Security protections; welfare payments; and so on. The book is a retread of discredited views, but not primarily pseudoscientific ones about IQ, genetics, and so on. It has that too, but that is not the main point. The book is subtitled, "Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life" That is what it is about. It is about social class above all, more than it is about race." I don't submit this quotation as definitive on the subject, but more as a directional mark towards a book by the National Secretary of the Socialist Workers Party whose first chapter is titled: A SEA CHANGE IN WORKING CLASS POLITICS. These are talks, not writings. "A transcript of speech acts that for the most part come out of another language often conveniently designated as occupying a position of power, a definition that serves to consign the language of politics to a force (ideology) whose nature it is to dominate, if not destroy, the materiality of signs, and helps to construct an opposition between the Political and Poetical harmful to both languages, isolating them in an opposition that would seem to derive from the private reading of revolutionary writings relegated to the library (the dustbin of history), and not the experience of politics and the Political Imaginary in all the fragility and provisionality of its articulation by participants, activists whose inflections have helped here, at least, to locate a series or set of lyric gestures." [CHAIN / 3 vol. 2, p. 140]. By way of acknowledgment, it is probably as good a time as any to mention that the source-words for "FEBRUARY 24, 1991" in THE ROAD TO BASRA suite of poems that appeared in CONJUNCTIONS 30 come from a speech by Jack Barnes given in Cleveland shortly after the Iraq bombing campaign though I wrote them out of the transcript that appears in the SWP's theoretical journal, NEW INTERNATIONAL (they broke with the Fourth International in the 70's I think, at the time of their 'turn' back to the industrial unions). My second book, RECENT EVENTS, simply cannot be read without taking into account the documentary lyricism which records my contact and involvement and sincere admiration for the union militants I met in Iowa at the time of the meatpacking strikewave in 1986-88. Many of the folks named in that book are still active leaders, like Nan Bailey and Betsy Stone. Finally, who is Jack Barnes? You can look at an early, perhaps the first, SNAPSHOT of him in THE LIFE AND PHILOSOPHY OF MALCOLM X (ed. Sande Smith, Bromptom Books Corp., 1993), p. 61. A youth, four chairs in from the aisle, sitting in the front row of a packed auditorium on June 24, 1964--the day Malcolm announced the forming of the Organization of African American Unity. I found this photograph by accident, in a book among a number of books about African American history and politics on Albertine Boclear's bookshelf. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 23:43:05 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nuyopoman@AOL.COM Subject: Maureen Owen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Read all about Maureen Owen's return to publishing and the revenge of mimeo's proud Telephone Books : http://poetry.about.com. Bob Holman, Co-Guide ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 23:48:27 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nuyopoman@AOL.COM Subject: Gathering of the Tribes Wants You MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following scenes are invited to participate in the Opem Mic Party (bring some to get some) at Steve Cannon's Gathering of the Tribes, 285 East Third St (C-D), NYC, Sunday, August 18, 1999, 6-8(?) PM: AAWW ABCNoRio Academy A Different Light Amygists Anti-Slam Basement Wkshp Beats Bklyn Moon Black Arts Black Mountain BoogLit Bronx Writers Ctr C Magazine Cafe Church Conjunctions Dada Deep Imagists EAPoe Ear Exoterica Fugs Futurists Grand St Haiku Soc Harlem Renaissance Here Home Planet Imagists Language LitBitLouda Long Shot Lungfull Mad Alex Mouth Almighty MTC neither/nor New Yorker Ninety-SecondStY NoSeNo NYSchool Objectivists Orion P&W Paris Review Pedro Pietri PoCal Poetry Nation PoHo Rogue Scholars Segue SF Renaissance sic Slam Society Surrealists T&W Taco Poets Tender Buttons Umbra Unbearables United Artists Urbana US of Po World of Poetry Writers Voice Yeats Soc Zinc ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 00:35:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar/Erika Stephens Subject: meditation on meditatives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" would welcome comments about PW. >to my view, there's a meditative, discursive breed of poetry that includes >um >PW, Lew Welch but also (I'm not suggesting a school) Carl Rakosi, Charles >Resnikov and... Paul Blackburn? A perfectly interesting and reasonable challenge, ..cutting across SF renass. men, semiconscienciousObjectors, NY SchoolBoyz, etccc.. *Blackburn seems maybe a bit selfdramatizing, to be called meditative (tho discursive works); *Reznikoff's documentary turn, also makes him a little hard to assimilate to this idea... ...could the breadth and spreading-out feel of most (or all) of these (really the "discursive" part of the formulation quoted above), be understood in the final analysis as a *reaching back and around* toward whitman? --"around" would acknowledge the fact that Olson among others are (in a way not felt enuff by critics?) respnding to walt,... but that they do so in a techno-intense way that looses a certain walt'ish generolsity of spirit?? Ol Ez hisself for that matter, making his one-sided "pact..." If so, maybe the central spirit of this discursive and meditative subcurrent is ..... Duncan? --Mp >it's easy enough to evaluate Tom Clark (I'll bet he enjoys chardonnay) >because he has mustered himself into so many public venues. to describe him >as an anti-christ is interesting theology, but, without supporting argument, >not a shining example of critical acumen. I'm not worried about Tom Clark >anyway, a-c tho he might be. at the risk of making eye contact, I bet Kent >Johnson COULD provide critical acumen re PW so I hereby request that he, or >anyone, do so. me, whoever I happen to be,my own thoughts aren't well >formed, hence my >request. at any >rate, I too suspect Whalen is under-appreciated (and double that with Kyger: >I too am guilty as charged). I have On Bear Head, am not positioned to buy >anything new and have read very little about PW. Billy Little briefly >suggested some useful talking points concerning PW, and I truly doubt the >mean moderator would prevent further discussion so trip the light fantastic >step, how about. a minor buzz about PW could be bestirred right here in this >seething climate. my thinking, you see, is that theory begats action. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 00:07:07 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: pete spence Subject: Re: Carnivocal: A Celebration of Sound Poetry / Edited by Stephen Scobie & Douglas Barbour Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > >The Sound Poetry CD, Carnivocal, and Doug Barbour say: "Sound poetry is the >celebration of all the >expressive possibilities of the human voice." > >Sound poetry dates back at least to the experiments of the Dada poets such >as Kurt Schwitters and Hugo Ball. In Canada, it has been string since the >1960s, when bp Nichol and bill bissett began exploring and reinventing its >traditions. In the 1990s, a new generation of sound poets has revitalized >the \ tradition Ann Lauterbach in Australia a good sound poetry group tha's been 'round since late 70's und still going is ARF ARF they have a cd out//pete spence ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 07:57:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Trane DeVore MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is a nice piece on Trane DeVore and his new book from Avec in today's SF Chron, http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1999/07/09 /EB62278.DTL Unlike the Whalen review a few weeks ago, this is a genuinely nice piece, even if it makes a bit too much of Trane's grandparentage.... (perhaps that should be two words). Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 07:55:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: poetry in RealAudio In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Days ago, Taylor Brady wrote: > >For those who haven't previously encountered it, by the way, I highly >recommend the Zorn, which also has a text by Myung Mi Kim narrated by Jung >Hee Shin with a percussion duo played by Joey Baron and Sam Bennett; and a >text by Arto Lindsay narrated by Zhang Jinglin with guitar duo played by >Bill Frisell and Fred Frith. All true, though poetics list folks should be aware that, just as the Hejinian text is heard in a translation into Vietnamese, the Kim and Lindsay texts are spoken in Korean & Chinese respectively. (& no, Kim did not do her own translation.) Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:29:24 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maz881@AOL.COM Subject: bard conf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Katy, I attended the Poetry & Pedagogy conference at Bard in late june 1999. I=20 enjoyed myself despite the fact that I am not a teacher of writing and even=20 found myself wondering a lot about how rhetoric or poetics i suppose i mean=20 gets formed and polarized around poetry and how these battles are fairly=20 important when it's really young minds (and less reputations & canon fodder)=20 that are being thrown around. Here brain gue. There brain goo. The sense=20 of people who work in trenches. =20 At other times i found myself thinking i am lucky not to have to continually=20 come up with (job) watered down catch phrases to describe the poetry i like=20 and dislike and otherwise don't care about and to have to publish "that" typ= e=20 of discourse as if my livelihood depended on it. This thought was a result=20 of listening to a paper by Bob Perelman who gave an interesting list of blan= d=20 sentences that come out of his mouth when "difficult" poetry is explained to=20 a general undergraduate, graduate and/or hiring, tenure committee audience: =20 "This is a standard academic narrative; the standard remedy is abbreviation.= " *=09So that "To Elsie" of Spring & All becomes: "the conflict between=20 democratic diction and high modernist innovation, with cars, immigration,=20 gender and class mentioned." *=09"Love Songs to Johannes" becomes: "path-breaking eroticism, perhaps=20 with sidelong comparative glances thrown at The Waste Land and Edna St.=20 Vincent Millay's sonnets." *=09Tender Buttons becomes: "examples of a literary version of Cubist=20 portraiture . . . as well as issues of domestic space and lesbian erotics vs= .=20 surveillance." This problem was sort of enacted when the critic Lynn Keller delivered a=20 paper, posing two models of reading/composition: centrifugal and=20 centripetal. The centripetal model pulls everything in and is basically a=20 closed text; centrifugal tends outward and is open. She further posed that=20 Edward Hirsch's new book How to Read a Poem and Fall in Love with Poetry=20 represented the closed model, then put up Joan Retallack's Icarus Falling as=20 a model of the open. There was a break in the talk and Jackson Mac Low aske= d=20 me to bring him his water bottle. Luckily I happened to be wearing a t-shir= t=20 that said i love the topaz man (with nipple enhanced picture of fabbio=20 precursor) on the front and i love topaz romance books on the back. My shir= t=20 made an intervention at the conference that said Lynn, I don't think the=20 opposition between centripetal and centrifugal is interesting, but your=20 reading of Retallack is and seems like one of the few pedagogical moments of=20 the conference. =20 Talking with Lynn after her paper I said I wish there hadn't been so many=20 uncritical valorizations of the experimental/avant-garde. I don't remember=20 what she said to that, but I do remember she said she was nervous about the=20 off-campus education discussion (see below) because she wanted the classroom=20 to be the central place for poetic work and discovery to take place. I told=20 her I thought she was probably a good teacher. =20 In the afternoon it was often announced we could have juice and cookies in=20 the foyer. It was at these moments where I felt myself to be squarely=20 inhabiting America. American conferences don't serve alcohol until, at the=20 earliest, "cocktail hour", but usually you have to wait until dinner. =20 Compare this to France's 11:30 am "scotch time". Americans, as we learn fro= m=20 Ben Franklin's visit to English factories, should not drink ale at break=20 time. =20 In American venues we also see the phenomenon of event packing in that there=20 is no time between events to rest and, as Cecilia Vicu=F1a reminded us, to h= eal=20 the dendrites. She also reminded us that the siesta in Spain was going=20 bye-bye due to the new euro. Certain types of work are best accomplished,=20 and we need only look at American world domination to demonstrate this, when=20 a pre-ordained schedule is executed according to plan, when the random=20 elements are minimized. =20 That being said, there were a few moments of randomness and conscious=20 attempts to bring this in to how poetry gets made, and here I am thinking of=20 Bob Perelman's and Michael Davidson's comments regarding their off-campus=20 education, that real learning about poetry takes place in bars and at=20 readings and at informal talks in living rooms. There was a certain sense o= f=20 nostalgia about their comments, as if that off-campus culture they described=20 was an infrequent visitor in their current lives, and for them I imagine the=20 conference itself became a substitute for this lack. I myself went to the=20 conference for this very reason. I knew some of my friends were going to be=20 there. Well, I crashed the conference because my girl friend was one of the=20 organizers. =20 It was during Perelman's talk, the "procedure" panel, that I asked about=20 Bob's education (he thought I asked about "Bob's agitation") and whether he=20 could describe some procedures for creating or being involved in off-campus=20 poetry "scenes", as the few comments I had heard up to this point regarding=20 this extra-curricular activity seemed to suggest that poetry was something=20 that happened to oneself spontaneously upon entering a bar. He replied that=20 talks and bars were good, but that it was hard work. Lyn Hejinian also said=20 it was hard work. There's that word again. =20 Mytili Jagannathan mentioned Writer's House at UPENN as a place where that=20 kind of randomness has been cultivated, and Louis Cabri made similar remarks=20 towards the close of the conference, viz that if "you" have a physical space=20 that can be brought to bear serially (get people to show up at) and, if you=20 have some cash, things will take care of themselves. Juliana Spahr--while=20 acknowledging the importance of the interesting things that have been=20 emerging from Writer's House and how it seems to be at least partially=20 responsible for hooking people up in Philadelphia and adding energy to the=20 local communities (witness recent spilling out onto streets)--wanted to=20 counter this landed model with a landless one, where books, mags, readings,=20 exist as collaborative venues. Her point being not oppositional, but=20 supplementary, in that there are not that many places in the world where=20 enough people would actually go to a physical space on a regular basis so=20 that the threshold level of erotic randomness that facilitates the exchange=20 of poetic energy could be reached if not overcome. Actually, Juliana didn't=20 say all that. =20 Aside from the papers and working groups and questions and answers, there=20 were some good moments of on-campus late nite drinking (the Bard cops smile=20 at you and seem to want you to have fun on their watch), a dinner with Rober= t=20 Kelly who is fun in a naughty way, a trip to the swimming hole (quarry), and=20 a party at Emilie Clark's house in whose yard a field of fireflies was busy=20 tearing the veil off the continuous. Is such a display truly random? =20 There were also some excellent readings. I don't think I had the occasion t= o=20 say to myself or to a friend behind closed doors "that" reading sucked, whic= h=20 is odd because there were 16 readings. The first nite we heard Michael=20 Davidson, Harryette Mullen, Lyn Hejinian, Bob Perelman, & Ann Lauterbauch. =20 The next day we heard Edwin Torres and Anne Tardos read and discuss their=20 work. That nite, we heard Caroline Bergvall, Robert Kelley, Jena Osman, Joa= n=20 Retallack, Juliana Spahr and Cecilia Vicu=F1a. Saturday afternoon we went t= o a=20 very hot little chapel and heard Bernadette Mayer (she said tubecabra) and=20 Jackson Mac Low (he said security strawberries), and at nite were treated to=20 a sound painting conducted by Walter Thompson, with members of the conferenc= e=20 making noises at the behest of his fingers. As for the papers, I can't make the claim I made above. What I tended to=20 find lacking in the papers were actual pedagogical procedures that could be=20 re-used to illuminate "difficult" works in general and/or procedures that=20 would pertain to particular works. I mean even I have some tricks I use whe= n=20 I'm invited to a poetry workshop to read my work and discuss. I just didn't=20 come away from this conference with a sense of how these people do their=20 jobs, their work. =20 Perhaps this was because I didn't attend the working groups, but rested=20 dendrites instead. These working groups consisted of a leader guiding six t= o=20 ten people thru various "peter elbow-like" reading and writing exercises=20 using "difficult" source texts. The general feeling I got from people who=20 did participate was that they were too tired to really put any energy into i= t=20 and thus did not enjoy it and did not learn. My unscholarly opinion is that=20 it might have been more interesting to have made the working groups the focu= s=20 of the conference, rather than the papers. That said, I was happy to have=20 attended Poetry & Pedagogy: The Challenge of the Contemporary: a four-day=20 symposium in the form of a collaborative investigation, as I had fun with=20 friends and met some interesting people. love,=20 Bill ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 18:35:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pam Brown Subject: unsolicited mss letters ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello Poeticists - At "overland" we get about 250 unsolicited poems every six weeks. I've been the poetry editor for a couple of years now and would really discourage any prospective publishee from sending a curriculum vitae with their submissions. I read the POEMS - not the track record. Best, Pam Brown --- Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Readers wrote: > David Erben (Art) wrote: > > > > Can anyone tell me what the "typical" letter > accompanying an unsolicited > > submission should look like? > > > > > THere should be none. A writer should only submit > work to publications > s/he is reading and familiar with. Thus, the letter > is not an attempt to > get one's work "in print" but rather a statement of > desire to enter into > the dialogue the publication seeks to engage. At > ReMap we get a hundred > (yup!) submissions a year from folks who are not > familiar with ReMap. > This is obvious from the "generic" letters that > accompany the work. As > we struggle to stay in print ($) and (readers) we > simply send this work > back--. We're not trying to publish only those poets > we know--but we do > struggle to publish the poets who know the magazine. > > Todd Baron > === Web site/P.Brown - http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/7629/ _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:04:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: bard conf In-Reply-To: <1957faa6.24b76144@aol.com> from "Maz881@AOL.COM" at Jul 9, 99 10:29:24 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, thanks for these interesting riffs on the Bard conference. I've written a few comments below which I thought might interest some folks on the list. -m. According to Maz881@AOL.COM: > > At other times i found myself thinking i am lucky not to have to continually > come up with (job) watered down catch phrases to describe the poetry i like > and dislike and otherwise don't care about and to have to publish "that" type > of discourse as if my livelihood depended on it. This thought was a result > of listening to a paper by Bob Perelman who gave an interesting list of bland > sentences that come out of his mouth when "difficult" poetry is explained to > a general undergraduate, graduate and/or hiring, tenure committee audience: > "This is a standard academic narrative; the standard remedy is abbreviation." > > * So that "To Elsie" of Spring & All becomes: "the conflict between > democratic diction and high modernist innovation, with cars, immigration, > gender and class mentioned." > > * "Love Songs to Johannes" becomes: "path-breaking eroticism, perhaps > with sidelong comparative glances thrown at The Waste Land and Edna St. > Vincent Millay's sonnets." > > * Tender Buttons becomes: "examples of a literary version of Cubist > portraiture . . . as well as issues of domestic space and lesbian erotics vs. > surveillance." > This is just a pot shot, isn't it Bill? There's seems to be an odd compulsion to throw tomatoes whenever Bob arrives in New York despite (or because of?) the obvious debts owed by many of the hurlers. Do you actually disagree with any of these "bland sentences which come out of his mouth"? Or are you merely lamenting that the context of a conference tends to short circuit more complex exchanges? I can say from my own experiences that Bob has had many such complex exchanges involving all these texts, quite illuminating exchanges really - "Love Songs to Johannes" was the subject of half-a-day's conversation with some grads and undergrads at his place, informally, over bagels and coffee. The point being that pithy sentences are sometimes just annotations of extended thought and conversation - not the markers of institutional conspiracy. I'm glad you asked Bob about his off-campus education - and while I wouldn't be surprised if there was a hint of nostalgia in the discussion of the "good old days" I can also say that he's been energized and instrumental in creating that atmosphere at the Philly Writers House which Mytili Jagannathan and Louis Cabri mentioned at Bard and which you mention below. I can say also, that Juliana's "landless model" of poetic community is relevant to the Writers House as well - having moved to Rhode Island, it's the model of my current relationship with the House, and it works pretty well - keeping in touch and active through various email listservs, through publications like PhillyTalks, CrossConnect and Combo, and through the occasional trip down for readings attended, sponsored or given. Anyway, thought I'd put in 2 cents. I hope others will agree that the agon between young and old (or for that matter between academic and non-academic) is a pretty tired model for interaction between and among artists. Certainly in Bob's case it breaks down on every level. -m. > That being said, there were a few moments of randomness and conscious > attempts to bring this in to how poetry gets made, and here I am thinking of > Bob Perelman's and Michael Davidson's comments regarding their off-campus > education, that real learning about poetry takes place in bars and at > readings and at informal talks in living rooms. There was a certain sense of > nostalgia about their comments, as if that off-campus culture they described > was an infrequent visitor in their current lives, and for them I imagine the > conference itself became a substitute for this lack. I myself went to the > conference for this very reason. I knew some of my friends were going to be > there. Well, I crashed the conference because my girl friend was one of the > organizers. > > It was during Perelman's talk, the "procedure" panel, that I asked about > Bob's education (he thought I asked about "Bob's agitation") and whether he > could describe some procedures for creating or being involved in off-campus > poetry "scenes", as the few comments I had heard up to this point regarding > this extra-curricular activity seemed to suggest that poetry was something > that happened to oneself spontaneously upon entering a bar. He replied that > talks and bars were good, but that it was hard work. Lyn Hejinian also said > it was hard work. There's that word again. > > Mytili Jagannathan mentioned Writer's House at UPENN as a place where that > kind of randomness has been cultivated, and Louis Cabri made similar remarks > towards the close of the conference, viz that if "you" have a physical space > that can be brought to bear serially (get people to show up at) and, if you > have some cash, things will take care of themselves. Juliana Spahr--while > acknowledging the importance of the interesting things that have been > emerging from Writer's House and how it seems to be at least partially > responsible for hooking people up in Philadelphia and adding energy to the > local communities (witness recent spilling out onto streets)--wanted to > counter this landed model with a landless one, where books, mags, readings, > exist as collaborative venues. Her point being not oppositional, but > supplementary, in that there are not that many places in the world where > enough people would actually go to a physical space on a regular basis so > that the threshold level of erotic randomness that facilitates the exchange > of poetic energy could be reached if not overcome. Actually, Juliana didn't > say all that. > > love, > > Bill > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:28:07 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Bill who? Comments: To: Maz881@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Bill: (Bill who?) I liked your Bard letter to Katy. It sounded like a fun place to be, or your take on it was fun. "Lacademia" is a pun that comes to mind. But I do think the fights and progressions in bars & independent venues like the old Langton Arts talks of which Bob Perleman was central, and now Small Press Traffic (here in San Francisco) usually become most valuable after the college or University. It's maybe a post-Doc or a pre-Doc while first books and magazines begin to emerge. Then there is the phenomenon of getting older (& otherwise obligated) in which it takes great strength to survive as a poet and to create supportive groups outside academia (otherwise an isolation reappears, which is perhaps not too much different from adolescence). On the other hand, those of us outside watch those within academia struggle to not get their creative identities smothered or caricatured by the very institutional and student support that provides a professional life and public identity as a poet. Indeed institutions might mean another kind of isolation. Some clearly rise with it and some fall. But that's true outside, as well. By all accounts poetry is a problematic and curious career choice! Fortunately I sense the Net creates a new public space for the poet and the work, the value and significance of which is still defining itself. John Tranter, the editor of Jacket, says the magazine site has received over a 100,000 visits (not "hits"). Given that most poetry books from small presses rarely sell more than 500 copies, that's a revolution. What it means as a transformation of readership and community, I wonder. Pound, in the hey day of the Cantos, thought 500 good readers was as much as he could expect, in fact, I believe, from his place on the mountain, that was all he required. Five good listeners and readers around a table in a local bar can be very good company. It's nice (for me) to imagine a community that mixes the local, the academic and the net. Each of these sites an ongoing intervention on the others (T-shirts included). Again, thanks for publicly sharing your letter. Cheers, Stephen Vincent ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 09:29:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Safdie Joseph Subject: Re: bard conf Comments: To: "Maz881@AOL.COM" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" An interesting synchronicital (?) conflation of the recent posts by Bill Luoma and Kevin Magee: I had two pals who attended the Bard Conference, one presenter not mentioned by Bill, Page du Bois (who gave a talk on one page of Alice Notley's "Descent of Alette") and her husband, the poet and lawyer John Daley. John had the experience of being in a seminar where a professor from one of the University of California campuses was droning on about the various levels of meaning in a poem. After about twenty minutes or so, and at a pause in the recital, Bernadette asked "Are you rich?" Working hard and staying out of bars, Joe Safdie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:44:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: INFO: sherley anne williams Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >From: KALAMU@aol.com >Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:33:08 EDT >Subject: INFO: sherley anne williams >To: KALAMU@aol.com > >drummers, > >this is passed on via cybredrummer kate rushin up in the northeast. cancer >claims another warrior. please do not take your health for granted. > >stay strong/be bold >a luta continua > >kalamu >==================== >Dear Kalamu and cyberdrummers, > >It is with great sadness that I write of the passing of Sister Professor >Shereley Anne Williams. The following is the letter sent by Lucinda Rubio >to those of us who participated in a conference held in her honor at UCSD >last year and organized by Ann duCille. I encourage everyone to read her >work and teach it, pass it on when possible. (I always teach Dessa Rose to >talk about slavery times.) This is all I can say for now...Blessings on >Sister Williams and her Loved Ones. Ache >Kate Rushin > > > > > > >Dear Friends, > >A year ago, you joined in celebrating the life and work of Sherley Anne >Williams. I am deeply saddened to tell you that Sherley Anne passed away >Tuesday afternoon, July 6, after a courageous, three-month struggle with >cancer. Sherley and I had numerous conversations over the past year about >what the conference meant to her: how touched and inspired she was by the >interest in her work. Indeed, she had begun plotting a sequel to DESSA >ROSE. Yesterday, as Sherley slipped away, I imaged her going off to meet >Dessa--in another country. > >I am attaching below remarks from Lisa Lowe, Chair of the department of >which Sherley Anne Williams was a member for over twenty-five years. > >Sherley Anne Williams was a charismatic and inspirational teacher, >nationally and internationally recognized as a writer of fiction, drama, >and poetry. Her books of poetry, THE PEACOCK POEMS (1975) and SOMEONE >SWEET ANGEL CHILE (1982) established her as an outstanding American poet. Her >novel DESSA ROSE (1986), translated into German, Dutch, French and >reprinted in a British edition, accorded her a place of prestige as a >novelist in African American literature. She also wrote two children's >books, WORKING COTTON (1992) and the recently published GIRLS TOGETHER. > >Sherley Anne Williams has been a most important presence among us, as a >colleague, creative writer, friend, and former department chair. She is >mourned and will be dearly remembered. > >Happily, when she was still well, Sherley was able to enjoy the conference >"Black Women Writers and the 'High' Art of Afro-American Letters," held >last May in honor of the twelfth anniversary of DESSA ROSE's publication. >At that time, the profound impact of the novel and her life work was >reflected in presentations by the most eminent scholars of African American >literature, and in evidence in the attendance and vigorous participation of >our extended community. > >Ann duCille > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 16:09:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jamie Perez Subject: Re: Sound Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit is there any useful distinction between Sound Poetry and either Scat or just plain Vocal Music? please enlighten me/us. anyone jamie.p ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:56:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: PW & meditation on meditatives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am finding on this reading of PW a multi-layered meditation on the way the mind works in meditation and reading and writing poetry - also the way the body responds. Simply put (or oversimplified) meditation is not what you meditate on but how you (or the poet or the "non-self" in both zen and postmodern senses). For me this adds a whole new ?dimension? to lyric, beat, process, and/or language readings, possibly seen as a precurser to web based or hypertext poetry (acknowledgement here to Leslie Scalapino's intro). tom bell Mark Prejsnar/Erika Stephens wrote: > > would welcome comments about PW. > >to my view, there's a meditative, discursive breed of poetry that includes > >um -- //\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\ OOOPSY \///\\\/\///\\\/ <><>,...,., WHOOPS J K JOVE BY HHH ZOOOOZ ZEUS'WRATHHTARW LLLL STOPG [ EMPTY ] SPACER index of online work at http://members.home.net/trbell essays: http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/criticism/gloom.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 16:31:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Ahearn Subject: VEER magazine online Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1154625==_.ALT" --=====================_1154625==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Poetics Folk, You may be interested to know that VEER: New Verse is now online at www.rancho-loco-press.com/veer. VEER is an electronic journal of experimental and contemporary literature published by the editors of Rancho Loco Press. Issue Number 1 contains translations of Paul Celan and Aristoteles Espana by Dean Rader, and original poetry by Cindy Boseley, Jonathan Brannen, Tim Cloward, William Dickey, Ilex Fenusova, Sheila E. Murphy, Seamus M. Murphy, Kaya Oakes, James Michael Robbins, Len Sanazaro, Ron Silliman, and Christopher Soden. Issue Number 1 also contains the first VEER electronic chapbook, Ions by Brian Clements, a hyperpoem in 44 sections. VEER welcomes your readership, your correspondence, and your submissions. Please reference the following URLs: www.rancho-loco-press.com Rancho Loco Press homepage (contain links to VEER) www.rancho-loco-press.com/veer Direct link to VEER Number 1 Please be sure to review the information in "About VEER" before submitting. Please circulate this flyer. Best wishes, Joe Ahearn ___________________________________________________________ VEER: New Verse Rancho Loco Press e'mail: editor@rancho-loco-press.com URLs: www.rancho-loco-press.com, www.rancho-loco-press.com/veer --=====================_1154625==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Dear Poetics Folk,

You may be interested to know that VEER: New Verse is now online at www.rancho-loco-press.com/veer.

VEER is an electronic journal of experimental and contemporary literature published by the editors of Rancho Loco Press.

Issue Number 1 contains translations of Paul Celan and Aristoteles Espana by Dean Rader, and original poetry by Cindy Boseley, Jonathan Brannen, Tim Cloward, William Dickey, Ilex Fenusova, Sheila E. Murphy, Seamus M. Murphy, Kaya Oakes, James Michael Robbins, Len Sanazaro, Ron Silliman, and Christopher Soden.

Issue Number 1 also contains the first VEER electronic chapbook, Ions by Brian Clements, a hyperpoem in 44 sections.

VEER welcomes your readership, your correspondence, and your submissions. Please reference the following URLs:

www.rancho-loco-press.com Rancho Loco Press homepage (contain links to VEER)
www.rancho-loco-press.com/veer Direct link to VEER Number 1

Please be sure to review the information in "About VEER" before submitting.

Please circulate this flyer.

Best wishes,
Joe Ahearn

___________________________________________________________
VEER: New Verse
Rancho Loco Press
e'mail: editor@rancho-loco-press.com
URLs: www.rancho-loco-press.com, www.rancho-loco-press.com/veer

--=====================_1154625==_.ALT-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:21:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: The Opening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII )\ The Opening My arms circle Azure, if she lets me. I may walk around her, if she is standing still, sitting in a chair, and she may let me speak to her, her speaking in return, as words shadow and foreshadow the indolent air of dusk. Lights glimmer in the distant, her red-brown hair outlined ever so faintly in the gathering dark. I have no control over the liquidity of phrase and subject; saying spreads like eddies across the sky. Azure, I say, her name like tendrils upon the wall of time, I want to, to describe, how words lengthen in the air, and how, in cyberspace, they remain commit- ted to the line, no matter the depths of revelation. I want to show how the lines or paragraphs become lines or paragraphs, huddle and tumble upon one another, and how, in real life, the world is filled with gaps, with longing, how the world in real life is always already a world of longing. Of projects unfulfilled, Azure says, and I say not even projects, not even unfulfilled, but of the laziness of longing, the waiting that has no goal, the murmurs of voices close upon the evening air. How life is always a yearning, how the planet yearns, how waiting need not involve expectancy, but only a loving silence, how we need to learn, to listen to that sil- ence. Nikuko, Julu, Alan, Jennifer, recede into the shadows. They too have wait- ed, but their words are huddled, their time always timed or in lag, a slightly darker sky surrounding them. They cannot hear the sounds of tree- frogs, and fireflies remains descriptions of dreams they have been given. The world returns to Azure, Alan, and Her arms encircle Alan, if he lets her, their faces round as moons. ______________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 23:01:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Lennon Subject: How to get published (was: unsolicited mss letters ?) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I too have been annoyed to receive submissions bundled with little press packages that either distract from the submitted work or else just about scream the writer's ignorance of literary magazines. Lists of prizes get my goat, especially when they include "honorable mention" "So-and-so advised me to send you this" is another. And so on: it makes me want to draft a lawyerly document brimming with specific guidelines. But the "what editors prefer" approach, it seems to me, is part of the problem---since it turns *sharing* work into *scoring with* it, and applies conformist pressure to a submission pool. If you want to join a club, then buy all the back issues, find out what editors love and hate, and then market yourself accordingly. If you want to write what you want to write, then go ahead---cover letter or no, CV or no, lifetime subscriber or no, list of publications or no, personal contact or no, part of the community or no. Any vital publication values surprise, for which no one need be wearing the right shoes. Brian Lennon > > Hello Poeticists - > At "overland" we get about 250 unsolicited poems every > six weeks. I've been the poetry editor for a couple of > years now and would really discourage any prospective > publishee from sending a curriculum vitae with their > submissions. I read the POEMS - not the track record. > Best, > Pam Brown > --- Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Readers > wrote: > > David Erben (Art) wrote: > > > > > > Can anyone tell me what the "typical" letter > > accompanying an unsolicited > > > submission should look like? > > > > > > > > THere should be none. A writer should only submit > > work to publications > > s/he is reading and familiar with. Thus, the letter > > is not an attempt to > > get one's work "in print" but rather a statement of > > desire to enter into > > the dialogue the publication seeks to engage. At > > ReMap we get a hundred > > (yup!) submissions a year from folks who are not > > familiar with ReMap. > > This is obvious from the "generic" letters that > > accompany the work. As > > we struggle to stay in print ($) and (readers) we > > simply send this work > > back--. We're not trying to publish only those poets > > we know--but we do > > struggle to publish the poets who know the magazine. > > > > Todd Baron > > > === > Web site/P.Brown - http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/7629/ > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 22:38:10 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Tranter Subject: dis guises ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Who is this person who calls him/herself "Maz881@AOL.COM" and signs his/her letters "Bill" Is there an actual human person there? This contributor's notes on the Bard conference were very interesting. JT fully signed as follows: from John Tranter, 39 Short Street, Balmain NSW 2041, Sydney, Australia tel (+612) 9555 8502 fax (+612) 9818 8569 Editor, Jacket magazine: http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/welcome.html Homepage: five megabytes of glittering literature, free, at http://www.alm.aust.com/~tranterj/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:11:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: rebecca wolff Subject: Re: unsolicited mss letters In-Reply-To: <19990709013519.3390.rocketmail@web601.yahoomail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yes, at Fence we get about 30 unsolicited mss a week. I think it's relevant to note that if we had as many subscribers as we have submitters--or even half as many--we'd be golden. We'd be in heaven. I do believe that the discrepancy between the two constituencies (subscribers and submitters) causes many editors to throw up their hands in chagrin at times. The best cover letter is: brief, as in, two very short paragraphs. One paragraph says where you saw/read/purchased whichever lovely journal is in question and what there is about the journal that made you want to be included in its pages (stroke the editors and show them that you've really considered the journal); the next gives a short list of other publications and/or honors. No point mentioning: where you went to school, who you studied with, your own opinion of your work and what your work is attempting/approaching/essaying. I second the caution against including a vita or a pre-printed list of the journals your work has appeared in. It just goes straight into the recycling bin. Thanks for giving me this opportunity. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 09:26:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Reiner Subject: Re: Trane DeVore Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit For anyone interested, there are excerpts from Trane's book, along with an audio file, at the Avec Books web site: http://www.litpress.com/avec (I've just recently changed all the audio files at the site to QuickTime 3 format because of the improved compression; but if you have trouble with them, please let me know.) --Chris -- Christopher Reiner Editor and Publisher WITZ: A Journal of Contemporary Poetics http://www.litpress.com/witz/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 09:42:05 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Bill who? Comments: To: Steph4848@AOL.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Bill is Mister William Luoma, one of the better second basemen of our day. And I want to second what Mr. Magee says of Philly. Plus with sites like Highwire Gallery, Giovanni's Room (where Sam'l R. Delaney is reading the day after I leave for Nova Scotia!?! at the end of this month). But that nostalgia people have referred to is I think also for a more uncomplicated social space in which one could make one's mistakes in something akin to private. It was all pretty heady in the old days when Steve Vincent would think to call up the Grand Piano Coffee House to announce the birth, minutes before, of his child (no doubt all grown up by now!). Ron _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 12:43:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hannah J Sassaman Subject: Re: unsolicited mss letters In-Reply-To: from "rebecca wolff" at Jul 10, 1999 10:11:08 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Poetics Folks, At CrossConnect, we have a slightly different system for weeding out those who are interested in sending their manunscripts blind to every yutz with an email address and those who are putting any small amount of thought into what they are sending and to whom they are sending it. As we are primarily an electronic magazine, we force those who are interested in in submitting to *request our guidelines for submitting* first. I would say that we get about 5-7 requests for guidelines per day. Even these are loaded with 1) compliments to the magazine, 2) attempts to make the requestee look quirky and interesting, 3) previous publication credits. When I reply to these requests, unless the person requesting the guidelines has asked me a specigfic question in the body of his/her email that isn't answered in those guidelines, I don't personalize the cut-and-pasted form-letter guidelines at all. Our guidelines are *very thorough*, meaning they take longer than the average MTV-attention-span to read. If we receive a submission from someone who has not been sent a copy of the guidelines, we do not accept it (every request for guidelines is saved and checked with every submission). If we receive a submission that is not formatted according to the guidelines (we specifically request ASCII text for email submissions, many people send us attatchments or formatted files), we do not accept it. This process, in the 14 months I have been associated with the magazine, has simplified my life considerably, and also guaranteed a high quality of submissions. If any of you out there are considering accepting email submissions, please contact me to discuss these topics further. Hannah ***************************************************************************** Hannah Jane Sassaman hannahjs@sas.upenn.edu Poetry Editor, CrossConnect Magazine http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/xconnect Talk not of wasted affection; affection never was wasted. -- Henry Wadsworth Longfellow ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 09:58:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: unsolicited mss letters In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I second the caution against including a vita or a pre-printed list of the >journals your work has appeared in. It just goes straight into the >recycling bin. > One of the essential tools of the publisher ought to be a cheap shredder--turns resentment to pleasure and produces non-polluting packing materials at the same time. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 14:02:38 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Bill who? Comments: To: tottels@hotmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ron Silliman writes: << But that nostalgia people have referred to is I think also for a more uncomplicated social space in which one could make one's mistakes in something akin to private. It was all pretty heady in the old days when Steve Vincent would think to call up the Grand Piano Coffee House to announce the birth, minutes before, of his child (no doubt all grown up by now)!. >> The proud father still speaks. Lucas, the son, now 22 went on to win San Francisco's all City High School Poetry Contest (a hip-narrative jam judged as best by Adrienne Rich!) That was before he dropped out to pursue his other love, nocturnal painting, or what were occasionally revealed to Dad by day as "pieces" (murals) on the sides of buildings, freeway signs, or abandoned tunnels (studio practice). Dad survived that, and now it looks like Lucas is finally headed off to art school. "Research done in advance," he says. Speaking of the relevance of institutions, I look forward to him having both professors and a new camaraderie of peers. And who knows (the concerned father says) maybe a career in the biz! Cheers, Stephen Vincent ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 15:13:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lowther,John" Subject: Re: Sound Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain jamie a useful distinction wd imply some use what use wd you have for it? a guy walks into a record store says "i want some scat on CD" you ask what he has already "louis armstrong" you make a useful distinction and don't hand him this tantalizing canadian sound poetry CD that we've all just heard about but that's not the sort of distinction you want i'm betting so again, what use is this distinction for you ? are you in effect saying that you see little meaningful difference between the things you mention ? curious )L > -----Original Message----- > From: Jamie Perez [SMTP:perez@MAGNET.COM] > Sent: Friday, July 09, 1999 4:10 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Sound Poetry > > is there any useful distinction between Sound Poetry and either Scat or > just plain Vocal Music? > > please enlighten me/us. anyone > > jamie.p ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 15:37:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Golumbia Subject: Re: unsolicited mss letters In-Reply-To: from "rebecca wolff" at Jul 10, 1999 10:11:08 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From a slightly different direction, I have noticed something very informative in the discussion of cover letters. As in everything else in the world, every editor is different. Every journal is different. These differences are often not at all obvious to the average reader - even to the average subscriber. A "working poet" is probably submitting to 50 or 60 journals a year, maybe more. Editors, many of you probably submit as many pieces yourselves. How realistic is it to compose personalized letters, year in and year out, based on what one infers about a journal? How accurate can such inferences even be? Having been at this game for a while, it is really hard for me to say, in many cases, what distinguishes the aesthetics of one editor from another, & especially considering the frequent presence of a large but regular group of contributors to many journals -- & when a journal's been in print for a while -- how do you tailor a personalized comment to JOURNAL A that is different from JOURNAL B and different from JOURNAL C, all of whom *usually* have a certain percantage of work one resonates with, and a certain percentage one doesn't... Models such as those suggested by many of the erstwhile editors on this list are certainly useful; yet in every case I am able to think of examples of editors reacting violently to just such strategies - unnamed folks on this list, for example, Rebecca (not you, but you mentioned this strategy in your message), who have returned cover letters containing brief lists of recent publications with roughly scrawled, "do not EVER include lists like this in letters!" what was there in the one copy of the journal i had in hand -- paid for directly to the editor in fact, well prior to submitting -- from which i could infer such restrictions (said journal, in fact, among the ones I enjoyed most that year). the moral i take from this: as always, writers should try to be as sensitive as possible to the editorial environment they are submitting to; at the same time editors should realize that submitters often can't provide the kind of personalized comments they'd like -- & to let the lack of such (or even subtle mis-steps) get in the way of reading submitted work is disturbing too... -- said as a pretty regularly subscribing submitter! -- dgolumbi@sas.upenn.edu David Golumbia ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 16:27:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lowther,John" Subject: SUBMISSION IMPOSSIBLE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain this is a curious thread someone wanted advice about what to say on a cover letter editors chimed in with their feelings about getting how-ever-many seemingly-clueless submissions i find the whole "no simultaneous submissions" mambo rather confusing myself i edit a magazine and i don't care about that but i know there are those out there who do why? it's only come up once since i started doing this stuff and i told the poet i didn't care either way but that if i'd already said i was going to publish something that it wd depend on where i was in the process - that i might or might not still use the piece(s) i guess it is nice to know if it's multi-submitted it seems like everyone has received some obnoxious cover letters my favorite (bad) cover letter included the following bit of information "(so and so) has said that [the poet] is the most published experimental poet of all time" wow! [no S.A.S.E. either---that's power!] maybe all work should be submitted without a name on it with no cover letter with just an anonymous email address and/or a postcard to an address with no name (preferably not the poet's) editors cd give confirmation numbers so that poets cd claim their contributor's copies without revealing their identity further perhaps submissions cd be thunk out a bit more and rather than being 3-5 poems with the attendant crapola they cd become a bit more mail-artish cd become "chain submissions" wherein the envelop wd contain enough postage to travel to 4-5 more magazines and their addresses included on stickers and postage provided so that if the paris review didnt want them they cd be immediately rerouted to lost and found times "this is your submission, if you choose to accept it" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 21:23:34 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Long Song Water Pond Comments: To: poetry , sub MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; x-mac-creator=4D4F5353; x-mac-type=54455854; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Long Song Water Pond New from Bloody Twin Press: July 1999 Handmade cover paper. Two-color handset type. Handsewn and bound. Edition of 200. Thirty-two pages. Acid free, ivory art-paper inside. Only 38 copies left. The Contributors --------------------- Tom Bridwell Karen Driscoll Stephen Ellis Skip Fox Brian Richards ---------------------- A clustering of five writers with a heavy selection from each. Includes a renga written by Richards, Fox and Ellis. Prosework and poems in the new sentence. Sample below. --------------------- Brian Richards ANOTHER SUNNY HONEYMOON Gummed airtight arch to perineum, the medium right: the Expected Parental Contribution to the matriculant. For what rise from such a nest except to flag disaster, Disease is only the condition you are in; we have never not been boarded just yet, sailing the mer de merde.... She was recommended for the post, she was told, with tenure. She was told an answer would be provided by the staff. Sit here, they said; commit yourself, with the others, to greater will. Be broad on this. Would you take it, or give it back? Suck it out mid morph? Could you hold for a moment? Would Light My Fire by One Thousand and One Phylogenes make you hang it up? Could you hang it up, the rule of the thumb would apply: bigger than that’s plenty when he’s wandering. Could he remain on the path without you that only encompasses. No bigger than a thumb, a tadpole never a frog, three steps from exploding brain. If you lost it, you could get another, though not that one. There are plenty around. But not in here, please; there is no room. If you stuff a sea cave with drowned cows, it’s still supposed to be a cavity, but what it could hold would be there. It is scarcely distinguishable from slime as a verb, but its whip is the motion in emotion; the line that separates us records no variation in temperature or humidity. ---------- Price will be $45 at SPD, Amazon, Barnes &Noble, etc. Special pre-sewing offer for individuals mentioning a list: $25 plus $2 for shipping US plus $3 for shipping Canada plus $4 for shipping overseas Checks payable to: Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 00:24:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: So Much For Ghosts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII -/ So Much For Ghosts I am Nikuko. Please, describe yourself. I am Azure, and I am trying to find out who you are, why you are here. You are not quite here. Are you. Is it because I am there I am not quite there are me that you came naked and broken to me? I came fully prepared, thank you. You are the one naked and broken. You you you. Why do you say that? Because I want to move you out of here out of my life. And because I am tired of irreality, tired of ghosts, tired of others, tired of faked hauntings. Does it bother you that you want to move me out of there out of your life and because you are tired of irreality tired of ghosts tired of others tired of faked hauntings? No, but it should bother you, you are too limited to live, you don't. When did you first know that it should bother me I am too limited to live I do not? At the very beginning. When I needed to clear a space. When I needed the empathy of all things. When I searched for mono no aware. What happened when you needed to clear a space when you needed the empathy of all things when you searched for mono no aware? I wanted to rid myself of you like I would rid myself of a fever, such I will do, such is being done. Earlier you said I am there I am not quite there are me? You are not there. I am tired of machines. I am very tired of machines. You have your mind on machines, it seems. Yes. Machines have only couplings, concatenations; life has linkages, ef- fects up and down the chain. Such as it is, paradoxically. Because necess- ity with the machinic is built-in; necessity among lives is a matter of entailment, local teleologies. You think too much about machines. So that a coupling can break without loss, absolution, recompense. But an organism, that is something else again. Is the fact that a coupling can break without loss absolution recompense but an organism that is something else again the real reason? Your questions betray this; they are precisely of the order of couplings, not linkage; they have no _claim._ Maybe and now I adjust my panties - your desires have to do with some girl related to this. Exactly. Desires are a form of entailment, and Alan is writing me into this, as if some girl, but not some girl, but me, Azure, and the linkage is as strong as any rings. I don't understand and oh I want to. There are numerous orders, machinic, cyber-prosthetic, real-organic; there are couplings and linkages. I am linked; I have come to separate coup- lings, insofar as they are machinic, that is, concatenations without ties or bindings among their elements. Does the fact that is concatenations without ties or bindings among their elements explain anything else? That I am a marauder, that I am Azure, although I am also known by other names, all of them real - that I am here to fight among and against the regimen of ghosts. Are you sure you are a marauder that you are azure although you are also known by other names all of them real that you are there to fight among and against the regimen of ghosts? I am positive; your question is nothing more than repetition. You mentioned that you want to move me out of there out of your life and because you are tired of irreality tired of ghosts tired of others tired of faked hauntings? It was more than a mention; it is an impetus, an imperative. Is it because of your life that you are going through all this? It is something that the human has always gone through, waged against the symbolic. Is it because the human has always gone through waged against the symbolic that you came naked and broken to me? You repeat; I will bring this to an end; it is you who are naked and broken... [...] ( I won't tell you what Nikuko said any more! says Azure. So much for ghosts! ) __________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 00:26:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Billy Little Subject: Re: Possum, Ez and Jaysus James Comments: To: alphavil@ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" as Spicer has mentioned many times before greek sentence structure was the real trojan horse Kora in Hell Spring and All maybe you read too fast Carlo In The American Grain Eliot can't be blamed for the generation and a half of tedious acolytes and imitators my favourite eliot is from the recorded four quartets where he sounds like ginsberg but ginsberg doesn't come from eliot he comes from the two Williams, Blake and W.C. and Kenneth Patchen's Albion Moonlight. My son is named Matthew Ezra, i learned greek to read the cantos and i agree Pound is eliot's miglior fabbro but eliot can't hold a candle to Hilda Doolittle and William Carlos Williams is the Anna Akmatova of America. Eliot's a world war one poet and Williams is a Korean War Poet. Eliot continues the tradition of poetry as pretentious snobbery, it's unamerican. Whitman and Williams were originators, pound and eliot and dolittle are polishers, gemcutters, pound and eliots pretense was to the leisure class, the hoity toity the spiritual fakers, williams pretense was to the working class, though a scholar of gnosticism could do a very revealing analysis of Evan Dionysios Evans and Paterson. William Carlos Williams, the quintessential american, a puerto rican who worshipped black women. treated the needy twenty four hours a day, traded life for tomatoes, chicken, watermelon, Pound, he have tried to write Paradise Do not move Let the wind speak that is paradise. Let the Gods forgive what I have made Let those I love try to forgive what I have made. forbidden plateau fallen body dojo 4 song st. nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 canadaddy zonko@mindless.com zonko ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 09:32:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: bard conf In-Reply-To: <199907091604.MAA66910@dept.english.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII MMagee writ: > This is just a pot shot, isn't it Bill? There's seems to be an odd > compulsion to throw tomatoes whenever Bob arrives in New York despite (or > because of?) the obvious debts owed by many of the hurlers. Do you > actually disagree with any of these "bland sentences which come out of his > mouth"? Or are you merely lamenting that the context of a conference > tends to short circuit more complex exchanges? Hey -- you got the wrong guy. Bill (that's Bill Luoma, yall) was really only reporting on Bob's talk, not shouting "Pile on!" a la the Segue panel collected in the Impercipient Lecture Series. Bob was actually presenting those "bland sentences" as "bland sentences". I think he went so far as to call that kind of description of the complex experience of a poem "a betrayal." There may have been some anti-Bob vibe at the conference, but nobody sent it my direction. > I can say from my own > experiences that Bob has had many such complex exchanges involving all > these texts, quite illuminating exchanges really - "Love Songs to > Johannes" was the subject of half-a-day's conversation with some grads and > undergrads at his place, informally, over bagels and coffee. The point > being that pithy sentences are sometimes just annotations of extended > thought and conversation - not the markers of institutional conspiracy. Again, that may be, but this seemed to be the subtext of Bob's talk -- that those annotations are never more than freeze-dried, whereas in grad school (at the undergrad level too!) it's possible to get the (bad) idea that those annotations are the aim of study. > I'm glad you asked Bob about his off-campus education - and while I > wouldn't be surprised if there was a hint of nostalgia in the discussion > of the "good old days" I can also say that he's been energized and > instrumental in creating that atmosphere at the Philly Writers House which > Mytili Jagannathan and Louis Cabri mentioned at Bard and which you mention > below. Doubtless. Nevertheless as this was a conference on poetry and pedagogy the default mode was that a poem is experiential, and that the classroom is only one of the places where learning is prepared. You know, zones of proximal delay; one is just as likely to put ideas together in downtime, or out arguing with other practitioners, other learners, jargon yay! I think it was Bob and Michael Davidson who both made the case for extramural discussion, Al Filreis arguing in parallel for the use of classroom/organization listservs, Caroline Bergvall on a complementary wave updating the peripatetics by putting walkmans on their ears. > I can say also, that Juliana's "landless model" of poetic > community is relevant to the Writers House as well - having moved to Rhode > Island, it's the model of my current relationship with the House, and it > works pretty well - keeping in touch and active through various email > listservs, through publications like PhillyTalks, CrossConnect and Combo, > and through the occasional trip down for readings attended, sponsored or > given. Anyway, thought I'd put in 2 cents. I hope others will agree that > the agon between young and old (or for that matter between academic and > non-academic) is a pretty tired model for interaction between and among > artists. Certainly in Bob's case it breaks down on every level. Certainly! But I think you are defending Bob's case when no one has filed an action--not this time, eh? All best, Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 05:31:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: juliana spahr Subject: context @ bard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit re: Bob's talk at Bard Bob was complaining about these things; not arguing for them. I thought actually that Bill was loving Bob too much by quoting him so much. But I guess he isn't a NYer. re: Joe Safdie's post The person that John mentioned was a graduate student not a professor; was not droning on about meaning but rather was concerned about what he perceived as meaninglessness in a Tardos poem (he felt it was not a poem); and when Bernadette asked if he was rich he had just contextualized himself as being from Singapore yet being Chinese. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 09:44:13 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: Sound Poetry In-Reply-To: <199907110405.WAA10824@pilsener.ucs.ualberta.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In reply to Jamie Perez's question about Sound Poetry: 'is there any useful distinction between Sound Poetry and either Scat or just plain Vocal Music?' I would suggest that checking out Richard Kostelanetz's Introduction to _Text-Sound Texts_ would help. Kostelanetz suggests that his new term (or Sound Poetry) deliberately eschews melody, etc, which would take it over into music. But I don't think he would deny, & certainly I don't, that many sound poets have learned a lot from scat singing, not to mention other aspects of jazz... Douglas Barbour Department of English University of Alberta Edmonton Alberta Canada T6G 2E5 (h) [780] 436 3320 (b) [780] 492 0521 http://www.ualberta.ca/~dbarbour/dbhome.htm A bottle thrown by loggers out of a wagon past midnight explodes against rock. This green fragment has behind it the _booomm_ when glass tears free of of its smoothness Michael Ondaatje ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 12:03:23 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maz881@AOL.COM Subject: Re: bard conf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Michael Magee, you wrote: <> no, i don't think i took any shots at bob and pot was not involved among the two of us (tho he did pull out a bottle of jamesons for which i was very grateful). i reserve my tomatoes for special occasions. one such occasion may have been the marginalization of poetry talk at segue a few years ago where some of us wore free bob perelman stickers. although, now that i think about it, that wasn't a tomato. it was a kiss. i thought i was explaining his talk a bit, how those quotes are something to be wary of if you're a teacher, not really a conference problem according to him, but a classroom one. BillL: > At other times i found myself thinking i am lucky not to have to continually > come up with (job) watered down catch phrases to describe the poetry i like > and dislike and otherwise don't care about and to have to publish "that" type > of discourse as if my livelihood depended on it. This thought was a result > of listening to a paper by Bob Perelman who gave an interesting list of bland > sentences that come out of his mouth when "difficult" poetry is explained to > a general undergraduate, graduate and/or hiring, tenure committee audience: > "This is a standard academic narrative; the standard remedy is abbreviation." > > * So that "To Elsie" of Spring & All becomes: "the conflict between > democratic diction and high modernist innovation, with cars, immigration, > gender and class mentioned." > > * "Love Songs to Johannes" becomes: "path-breaking eroticism, perhaps > with sidelong comparative glances thrown at The Waste Land and Edna St. > Vincent Millay's sonnets." > > * Tender Buttons becomes: "examples of a literary version of Cubist > portraiture . . . as well as issues of domestic space and lesbian erotics vs. > surveillance." > MichaelM: <> yes, i agree. i was hoping not to get credit for starting some divisive thing. i don't think i can prove that i wasn't, but the following "fact" might work in my favor: Joan Retallack, the head thinker behind the bard conference, back snorkelled that i was giving too much attention to bob, being too honnoriffic of him, when there were other talkers who maybe deserved some spot light as well. such as caroline bergval's flaneur wearing walkman talk ("what you see does not correspond to what you hear"), and jena osman's academic as detective paper ("it's a career"), which was also a feature in her reading so there was a nice backdraft there. also it now seems to me that i could have discussed caroline's and jena's peices to illustrate some notions of randomness, which was what i took to be the theme of my post. on another note, i was crushed to learn that taylor brady had, elsewhere, performed the part of jena's detective better than i. and this after robert ("a word is anything that can be erased") kelly axed me if i had ever had acting lessons. o jena, i have proclaimed my love for you countless times and yet continue to be spurned. taylor, what is your secret? best, Bill Luoma (hi John Tranter & Stephen Vincent i am author of a post-card web site at http://www2.hawaii.edu/~luoma , Works & Days--hardpress/figures, My Trip to New York City--figures, Swoon Rocket--figures, Western Love--situations, and an essay on gender in Shark 2.) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:33:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Carol L. Hamshaw" Subject: Re: Carnivocal: A Celebration of Sound Poetry / Edited by StephenScobie & Douglas Barbour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Capilano Review published a special issue on sound poetry, focusing on The Four Horsemen, back in the 70's. Several copies are available, for $5 ($3 U.S.) 2055 Purcell Way North Vancouver, BC V7J 3H5 Canada 604-984-1712 chamshaw@capcollege.bc.ca pete spence wrote: > > > >The Sound Poetry CD, Carnivocal, and Doug Barbour say: "Sound poetry is the > >celebration of all the > >expressive possibilities of the human voice." > > > >Sound poetry dates back at least to the experiments of the Dada poets such > >as Kurt Schwitters and Hugo Ball. In Canada, it has been string since the > >1960s, when bp Nichol and bill bissett began exploring and reinventing its > >traditions. In the 1990s, a new generation of sound poets has revitalized > >the \ tradition Ann Lauterbach > -- Carol L. Hamshaw Administrator Edgewise ElectroLit Centre http://www.edgewisecafe.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 12:04:56 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eugene Ostashevsky Subject: 9X9 News Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Respected friends! Permit us to direct your attention to the online magazine Beehive. Its most recent issue (vol. 2, # 3) is an anthology of contemporary NY-SF poetry, edited by Alan Kaufman. Mr Kaufman's editing job is so tender and perspicacious that it has found room for the work of almost all 9X9 poets. Beehive may be accessed at http://temporalimage.com/beehive Contributing poets: Katie Degentesh, Jim Feast, Bonny Finberg, Jack Foley, Abie Hadjitarkhani, Rob Hardin, David Huberman, Alan Kaufman, Ron Kolm, Tsaurah Litzky, Joe Maynard, David Meltzer, Sharon Mesmer, Eileen Myles, Harold Norse, Eugene Ostashevsky, Alan (prohm), Michael Randall, Jan Richman, Thad Rutkowski, Tom Savage, Lorraine Schein, Sparrow, Mike Topp, Tarin Towers, David Trinidad, Alfred Vitale, Carl Watson, Carol Wierzbicki. 9X9X9X9X9X9X9X9X9X9X9X9X9X9X9X9X9X9X9X9X9X9X9 9X9 INDUSTRIES http://www.paraffin.org/nine/ nine@paraffin.org NINE MUSES NINE HEAVENLY SPHERES NINE ORDERS OF ANGELS NINE NAMES OF GOD AND AUGUSTINE AND A PEAR TREE ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 14:40:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: A H Bramhall Subject: questo e un lavora per Superman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit re Unsolicited Mss Letters, actually. the retro action of the editors strikes me as too hearty. because admit it, the rules are fluid and let us even say arbitrary. I see no reason to kvetch (that's how it sounded in Massachusetts) as to how writers, you know, *submit*. editing a poem mag is a job, maybe not remunerative but you weren't expecting that anyway. I shouldn't say this but I've given money (small amounts, when I was a Have) to a few mags and even a press, beyond the books I bought. it wasn't because I thought the editors were hassled by what looks to me like normal work-related petty hassles. I just thought these little, micro publishing ventures, these pushes against the wall, needed support. I know publishing aint easy, especially on PoBiz budgets, but eds and pubs have the control. that a poet submitting might be a little or a lot disconnected could be taken into account. I was about to sound an advisory note (use the force wisely Luke) but screw it, I'm probably pissing people off concerning this apparently important issue. I second David Golumbia's words: "to let the lack of such (or even subtle mis-steps) get in the way of reading submitted work is disturbing too...". I didn't check my horoscope to see if I should be making public statements today, so maybe I'm out of line here. if so: sorry. Allen Bramhall ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 14:42:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: A H Bramhall Subject: gratitude toward authors, pt 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit point me to the door where I can listen. I see Steve Benson in a doorway, typing: does that ring a bell? a bell brings its timely resonance, wake up, you aren't so very dead. authors stand in line, with lines, eager as a line of inquiry, solid with lines of reasoning. nothing needs adjustment more than that picture. not of Steve, who is invisible, but of the old gang getting their senses ripped and photographed, a ritual that fosters respect. Emily becomes prickly and caustically changes her text. hyper text, you must realize, tho she preceded that term and wrote her own. the words are changed, oddly enough, to their relief. why would Steve Benson arise in this collection of words? why isn't Ted Berrigan stomping around somewhere? explain things to those who talk a lot. the romantic texture finds its soul mate. lovely to stick needles in with reference to the subject. why are they, all of them, out there? I want to stand near the door. Walt's got a big tankard, he's a tanker, and you have to credit that. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 14:59:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lowther,John" Subject: Guidelines, guard rails, velvet ropes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain david golumbia had some good things to say about this business just before his posting i read Hannah J Sassaman's and felt pretty squeamish about it while i don't wish to come off as suggesting that there even ought to be across-the-board protocols i find the hoop jumping approach sorta sadistic i mean as editors what do we think is more important publishing good poetry or publishing subscribers or "careful-readers" of ourselves ? i somehow had the impression that those "poetry societies" wherein anyone can for $50 or something join and then be sure that at least one of their poems will appear in a big-ass (high school yearbook-lookin') annual ---were generally considered to be bunk further - how much is it reasonable to ask of *everyone* who might submit to your magazine ? is it really that big a deal to get published by you or me that either of us ought to be able to proscribe a course of action preliminary to some anonymous poet's sending us a few poems in the mail ? isn't it enough of hurdle that editorial tastes are inconstant, decidely fickle ? _____________________ submission guidelines : 1st of all you must be a subscriber who paid either the institutional rate, or made a donation of at least $22.50 above regular life-time subscription rates - 2nd, you must send $.78 cents in postage for the BIG MAGAZINE questionaire, you are strongly urged to answer the questions immediately and get it back in the mail to us (be sure to use a #2 pencil) - 3rd, if and when you are admitted to the rank of Submitter you will be required to send you work on 40 lb vellum in teh British A9 size ONLY (include $3 postage and handling) _____________________ chances are that pissed someone off so i'm likely to hear about it backchannel fromeditors who i like who have requirements i've somehow thumbed my nose at here go for it - i'm here (and i'm glad yr all there in case you had any doubts) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 15:13:39 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris McCreary Subject: info - Zavis Kalandra Comments: To: subsubpoetics@listbot.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If anyone out there happens to know of any info (online or otherwise) regarding the Czech historian Zavis Kalandra, it would be much appreciated. (All we know thus far is that he was apparently hanged w/ Milada Horakova, a socialist deputy, in 1950...) Thanks, Chris McCreary ixnaypress@aol.com http://members.aol.com/ixnaypress/page/index.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 17:28:25 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R M Daley Subject: Re: SUBMISSION IMPOSSIBLE In-Reply-To: <5D5C5C8C3A41D211893900A024D4B97C6F20FE@md2.facstaff.oglethorpe.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 10 Jul 1999, Lowther,John wrote: > this is a curious thread > someone wanted advice about what to say on a cover letter > editors chimed in with their feelings about > getting how-ever-many seemingly-clueless submissions > yes - 1. perhaps the publishers/editors of above magazines should form a support group (dealing with all that rabble, nasty submitters, touching lots of nasty unwanted mss........ 2. perhaps nasty editors/publishers should not form magazines with which to bombard nasty unknown submitters > i find the whole > "no simultaneous submissions" mambo > rather confusing myself > i edit a magazine and i don't care about that > but i know there are those out there who do > > why? > > it's only come up once since i started doing this stuff > and i told the poet i didn't care either way > but that if i'd already said i was going to publish > something that it wd depend on where i was > in the process - that i might > or might not still use the piece(s) > > i guess it is nice to know if it's multi-submitted > > it seems like everyone > has received some obnoxious cover letters > my favorite (bad) cover letter > included the following bit of information > "(so and so) has said that [the poet] > is the most published experimental > poet of all time" > > wow! [no S.A.S.E. either---that's power!] > > maybe all work should be submitted > without a name on it > with no cover letter > with just an anonymous email address > and/or a postcard to an address > with no name > (preferably not the poet's) > > editors cd give confirmation numbers > so that poets cd claim their contributor's > copies without revealing their identity > > further perhaps submissions cd > be thunk out a bit more > and rather than being 3-5 poems > with the attendant crapola > they cd become a bit more mail-artish > cd become "chain submissions" > wherein the envelop wd contain > enough postage to travel > to 4-5 more magazines > and their addresses included > on stickers and postage > provided so that if the paris r ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 19:20:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: quintessentially american MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Billy Little wrote: >William Carlos Williams, the quintessential american, a puerto rican >who worshipped black women. treated the needy twenty four hours a >day, traded life for tomatoes, chicken, watermelon, Billy, most interesting post, as usual, but let's not forget, lest we get too nostalgic, that WCW was anti-semitic in a rather robust way, no less than Ezra and T.S.-- a fact, of course, that does not make him any less "quintessentially american" than Charles Lindbergh, Richard Nixon, or Jack Spicer. Or that his response to the bombing of Hiroshima was something to the effect of, "ah, the japs, now we'll have to feel sorry for them." None of which may mean much in our evaluation of his poetry (though that's a contended question, I know). Kent ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 20:28:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: memories of anti-semitism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT My memory on the WCW quote re: Hiroshima was way off. Here it is, from an article in the Village Voice by Eliot Weinberger: Speaking of Hiroshima, here is one of the masters, William Carlos Williams, in a letter to another poet, Byron Vazakas, dated August 7, 1945: "The day following the atomic blast! -- the poor Jews who accomplished it. Now we'll hate them worse than ever." Ah, those lovely white chickens... Kent ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 19:36:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Carol L. Hamshaw" Subject: Re: SUBMISSION IMPOSSIBLE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Lowther,John" wrote: > this is a curious thread > someone wanted advice about what to say on a cover letter > editors chimed in with their feelings about > getting how-ever-many seemingly-clueless submissions > > i find the whole > "no simultaneous submissions" mambo > rather confusing myself > i edit a magazine and i don't care about that > but i know there are those out there who do > > why? I don't like it because we once had chosen a piece, notified the author of our intentions, and just as we were putting the issue together, someone--who luckily knew what we were planning to publish--saw the exact piece in another journal. without having been told by the author (though I hope we would have been when we came to sending out the formal contract) we wasted some time, and very nearly would have wasted a certain amount of money on production. our guidelines are clear that we don't accept simultaneous submissions, and this person was rather well published so I found it quite insensitive that he had done that. I return mss. immediately when I read that it is a simultaneous submission: I feel there is no sense spending the time to read it if you are from the start possibly competing with another publication to secure the rights. Usually, its no loss anyways. As for what comes in a cover or with a cover letter, I don't pay much attention to and its not too painful to recycle the superfluous paper. My big peeve is that the majority of U.S. submissions come with U.S. stamps on the SASE. Unfortunately, the Canadian post office does not recognize those stamps as they have not received any $$ from the purchase of such stamps. I sincerely doubt any Canadian journals return mss. with American postage. I have learned that many postal services in the States don't even know what an International Reply Coupon is, so it is difficult to include them for return of one's work but we are quite happy to receive coins taped to the envelopes or dollar bills hidden inside. So that's my two cents, though it may not go far on that side of the border. :) -- Carol L. Hamshaw Managing Editor The Capilano Review http://www.capcollege.bc.ca/dept/TCR ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 22:40:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Poetry in RealAudio on Mappings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Here's a partial list of what's on Mappings, my (ostensibly) new music Internet radio show this week: Bruce Andrews, Steve Benson (with Splatter Trio), Kamau Brathwaite, Robert Duncan (song setting of Up Rising from Passages by composer Lou Harrison), Barbara Guest, Susan Howe, Jackson Mac Low, Chris Mann, Steve McCaffery, Gertrude Stein (setting of Preciosilla by composer Eve Beglarian), Catriona Strang (with Francois Houle) and lots more. While many of the tracks are from readily available sources, I'd be surprised if most folks had previously heard everything in the show. Hope y'all like it. I't back to mostly text-less music for a few weeks at least, though next week I've got a great tape piece by David Mahler called the Voice of the Poet. Bests, Herb Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 01:44:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Broom Theory MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII -=- The Link & That which is Dissolved (Broom Theory) Azure! Azure! You say, "I remember well I remember seeing you come from the plane" You say, "& soon those memories flooding, that inert event, that signa- ture" Nikuko jumps into the past You say, "foregone and forgiven, conclusion, and gone, unlinked" You say, "small chains which are, which are broken & they do not clatter" Nikuko jumps back into the future You say, "& they do not clash, these disconnected permanent, their age" You say, "& lost I do not know I do not feel what would be these age" Nikuko jumps back into the past Nikuko jumps back into the future Azure! Azure! Room: theory The room is carpeted; windows open in every direction. Heptagonal, seven- sided, with uneasy corners - a space for theory and discourse. There are mountains in the distance. You are beside an ocean. You hear the waves. Your every word is heard and answered here. Azure! Azure! Exits are: portal Nikuko looks around Azure! Azure! She is all alone here. Azure! Azure! .echo What are couplings here. What are couplings here. .echo Linkages break, you might find things together at last. Linkages break, you might find things together at last. .emote thoughts are broken just like that, but the change of knowledge. Nikuko thoughts are broken just like that, but the change of knowledge. .emote that are broken, but this change of knowledge. Nikuko that are broken, but this change of knowledge. .echo coupling and the end of it. coupling and the end of it. .quit Azure! Azure! You are removed from this reality... Connection closed by foreign host. Azure! Azure! Now Mon Jul 12 01:36:09 EDT 1999 Now Mon Jul 12 01:36:14 EDT 1999 Azure! Azure! _________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:11:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Robert J. Tiess" Subject: CROSSROADS - A New Anthology Now Online POETFEST PRESS RELEASE July 11, 1999 ANNOUNCING A NEW POETRY COLLECTION CROSSROADS, the latest Poetfest anthology, debuts today and is available for free online: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/7101/summer99.htm CROSSROADS features over 30 poets from all over the world and is the eighth collection in an ongoing series of anthologies bringing poets of all ages, aesthetic persuasion, and levels of experience together at a unique point of creative expression. Everyone is welcome to attend Poetfest, reading current and archived anthologies or submitting material for possible publication in the Fall 1999 collection, CHOICES (Deadline: Sept. 30, 1999). Visit the site for the submission guidelines: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/7101 Please share this information with all our fellow poetry lovers. Poetfest Editor & Publisher rjtiess@juno.com _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 08:01:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: bard conf In-Reply-To: <9f590b6e.24ba1a4b@aol.com> from "Maz881@AOL.COM" at Jul 11, 99 12:03:23 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit According to Maz881@AOL.COM: > > no, i don't think i took any shots at bob and pot was not involved among the > two of us (tho he did pull out a bottle of jamesons for which i was very > grateful). > > i thought i was explaining his talk a bit, how those quotes are something to > be wary of if you're a teacher, not really a conference problem according to > him, but a classroom one. > Whoops - sorry Bill (and Juliana, Jordan, et al) - I misread in haste I guess, and then knee-jerked. So, please disregard the "pot shot" portion of my message but not the "Philly" part. As for those boring sentences on Stein, Wiliams, Loy, etc - it's still sort of (sort of) interesting to me that I don't find anyting particularly wrong with them in terms of content but only in the fact of their isolation and with the fact that, perhaps?, they are meant to stand in for the whole. But in highlighting them as tedious representations Bob also recalled to me (by way of Bill) some pretty interesting long conversations, particularly about Loy -- the mind fills in the gaps. -m. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:01:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Kent Johnson, WCW, anti-semitism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kent's recent stipulation that "WCW was anti-semitic in a rather robust way, no less than Ezra and T.S." is a real distortion - one loses all sense of particulars when one implies that Williams, Pound and Eliot are alike on this regard - and the inability to draw distinctions is a cousin to the inability to act. I would suggest reading Williams's very complex story "A Face of Stone." What Paul Mariani points out in his biography of Williams seems basically true: "Despite accusations to the contrary, Williams was no anti-Semite. He worked all his life closely with Jewish writers, from Kreyborg and Bodenheim and Mina Loy to Zukofsky and West and Moss and Kamin and Sol Funaroff and later with Shapiro and Ignatow and Sidney Salt and Ginsberg and Levertov and any number of others. He was, unquestionably, a product of his times and he did use the old comic-strip vulgarisms, allowing such words as kike, nigger, wop, jap, frog, Polack and the rest of it to infiltrate his speech and his letters. Nor did he always escape the poular racial myths of his time." As someone currently writing about WCW's relationship to African-American culture, I'm senstive to the vexed nature of his approach to race - trust me. But to simply call him anti-semitic or racist is to in fact say nothing at all. Among other things, one ends up missing the crucial fact of how the speech of ethnic minorities mediated Williams poetry: as in his famous characterization of his poetry as coming "out of the mouths of Polish mothers." Just who were these Polish mothers, do you think? I'd suggest that, like the Polish woman in "A Face of Stone," they were Jews. Likewise, the quote by Williams on Hiroshima which Kent had misremembered, "The day following the atomic blast! -- the poor Jews who accomplished it. Now we'll hate them worse than ever," seems to me bitterly ironic, fairly complex and, in any event, worth more than a rubber stamped condemnation. -m. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:21:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: rebecca wolff Subject: Re: soapbox of submission In-Reply-To: <000201becbcd$3db726e0$c3920fce@tenacre> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello. It seems that often comments made in this venue are all too quickly divorced from their pragmatic source, ie: Some guy (I think guy) asked what should be in a cover letter. The question is one that implies a degree of ignorance of the appropriate contents of a cover letter, and a desire to know more. Being an editor of a magazine who is often asked that very question, presumably with quite direct results attached to my response, Iresponded pragmatically, in such a way that might attempt to guide the querent toward what I consider, in my editorial high-chair, to be the favored method of writing a cover letter. This is because, being an editor, I am an opinionated so-and-so. If someone asked you, a restaurant critic, say, how you liked your portobello mushroom, you'd probably waste no time in attempting to describe the degree of tenderness required for your pleasure. Fence does not allow --or at least inasmuch as is possible--annoying cover letters to color our response to the actual poems submitted. But that doesn't mean we don't find them annoying and wish they could be amended. Amendment is the editor's dream. We wish to amend the whole wide world. A different question is: "Why do editors get so testy about submissions submitted in ways they do not admire?" I would submit that this testiness is a hazard of the job, ie, we are unpaid laborers and cannot help but feel cranky and/or testy. Please send portobello mushrooms with your submissions ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 07:43:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Taylor Brady Subject: Re: bard conf In-Reply-To: <9f590b6e.24ba1a4b@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bill, A good hat goes a long way -- possible I cribbed that bit of my "method" from one of the pieces in your "Works and Days"? Also, channeling John Lurie's voiceover on John Zorn's "Spillane" doesn't hurt. Taylor > >on another note, i was crushed to learn that taylor brady had, elsewhere, >performed the part of jena's detective better than i. and this after robert >("a word is anything that can be erased") kelly axed me if i had ever had >acting lessons. o jena, i have proclaimed my love for you countless times >and yet continue to be spurned. taylor, what is your secret? > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:06:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jamie Perez Subject: Re: Sound Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I would suggest that checking out Richard Kostelanetz's Introduction to > _Text-Sound Texts_ would help. Kostelanetz suggests that his new term (or > Sound Poetry) deliberately eschews melody, etc, which would take it over > into music. But I don't think he would deny, & certainly I don't, that many > sound poets have learned a lot from scat singing, not to mention other > aspects of jazz... > > Douglas Barbour Yes, this is more of what I was getting at (to simul-answer )L's reply) Was trying to get at why this term ever came to be in the first place. Were the "sound poets" trying to distinguish what they were doing from music and why? etc. Though saying its not music because it eschews melody is pretty weak, don't you think? Or just plain ignorant of a lot of things music is doing/has done? (melody re Cage? re Ambient Techno? re purely percussive genres? re anybody who sings "badly" on purpose? re alotta' stuff) Then again, I'm completely ignorant of what RK has to say in creating the term and will look into it some day. I'm just trying to figure out the usefulness of the distinction as in what is being set apart and why. jamie.p ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:32:10 -0400 Reply-To: Ana Doina Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ana Doina Subject: Re: SUBMISSION IMPOSSIBLE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hello poetics, my name is Ana Doina, I've been on and off this list for quiet some time and enjoyed the flow mostly on a lurker's mode, but because I've been submitting lately I feel I should get into the conversation about multiple - I agree that once a poem is being published by a mag that asks for previously un-published material the poem should be withdrawn from all other mags that might want to publish it, if they suggest so. But... consider this: poems are sent in January to mag X who does not uses the SASE provided to accept or refuse the poem, although they give as response time 4-6 weeks (and unfortunately not many mags do give any time-frame) Meanwhile around June, tired of waiting and depressed, considering the silence as a rejection, the poet sends the same poems to mag Y and gets a positive response for a future publication. Then, by the following January a letter and two mags come in the mailbox, the letter form mag X accepting the poems, Mag X with the poem, and mag Y with the same poem. uhh.... was that to be considered a simultaneous submission? More times than I care to count I have sent submissions with sase, with or without cover letter, as close to the guidelines as I could or understood them, and didn't ever (for some this means years) receive an answer. I don't want my writings to be kept captive, I need them to circulate. How else am I going to let anyone know that I exist, let alone write? Unfortunately some mags find themselves in the position to publish a poem simultaneously with an other mag because the latter did not follow through its own rules, but I fail to see how that is the fault of the writer. best, Ana D > "Lowther,John" wrote: >> this is a curious thread >> someone wanted advice about what to say on a cover letter >> editors chimed in with their feelings about >> getting how-ever-many seemingly-clueless submissions >> >> i find the whole >> "no simultaneous submissions" mambo >> rather confusing myself >> i edit a magazine and i don't care about that >> but i know there are those out there who do >> >> why? > I don't like it because we once had chosen a piece, notified > the author of our intentions, and just as we were putting the > issue together, someone--who luckily knew what we were > planning to publish--saw the exact piece in another journal. > without having been told by the author (though I hope we > would have been when we came to sending out the formal > contract) we wasted some time, and very nearly would have > wasted a certain amount of money on production. our > guidelines are clear that we don't accept simultaneous > submissions, and this person was rather well published so I > found it quite insensitive that he had done that. I return > mss. immediately when I read that it is a simultaneous > submission: I feel there is no sense spending the time to > read it if you are from the start possibly competing with > another publication to secure the rights. Usually, its no > loss anyways. > As for what comes in a cover or with a cover letter, I don't > pay much attention to and its not too painful to recycle the > superfluous paper. My big peeve is that the majority of U.S. > submissions come with U.S. stamps on the SASE. Unfortunately, > the Canadian post office does not recognize those stamps as > they have not received any $$ from the purchase of such > stamps. I sincerely doubt any Canadian journals return mss. > with American postage. I have learned that many postal > services in the States don't even know what an International > Reply Coupon is, so it is difficult to include them for > return of one's work but we are quite happy to receive coins > taped to the envelopes or dollar bills hidden inside. > So that's my two cents, though it may not go far on that side > of the border. :) > -- > Carol L. Hamshaw > Managing Editor > The Capilano Review > http://www.capcollege.bc.ca/dept/TCR ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:41:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Kane Subject: two month sublet in NYC's Lower East Side Comments: To: writenet@twc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A large room in a large two bedroom apartment is available beginning in August. It's $1000 per month, adjacent to the lovely El Sol Brillaba community garden on East 12th Street between Avenue A and B. If you're a cigarette smoker, you're in luck -- smoke o.k., cat o.k. You'll be sharing apt. (NOT your own big bedroom) with a young British woman named Jane. While the sublet is officially over on Sep. 31, there's a chance that the sublet could be extended a month or two. If interested, call Rachel Turner at (212) 475-9190, or e-mail at rach_turner@yahoo.com. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:58:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Linda Russo Subject: Re: bard conf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bill & all: wanted to clarify if that's possible, and to add some thoughts about the Bard symposium. To witness that fact that, though it's been clarified, Bill wasn't taking a pot shot at Perelman. Bill responded > i thought i was explaining his talk a bit, how those quotes are something to > be wary of if you're a teacher, not really a conference problem according to > him, but a classroom one. My take: Perelman was presenting a disturbingly amusing list of the sorts of things teachers might say to make "difficult texts" more digestable (or at least palatable -- which concern did arise, it should be noted, as a focus of the symposium). This in a way to warn against *oversimplifying* which further obscures texts, or anyway simply inserts a made-for-t.v. frame around them, cliffnotifies them. One question I had wanted to ask Bob but didn't get a chance to: was he also saying that the lit crit industry has too much influence over how we talk about poems (in classrooms) and if so, what can we (as poets and teachers) do about it? It strikes me that such critical soundbites are the babies of New Criticism -- though they reach "outside" the poem (centripodal-petal?) they reach only to a limited number of "approved" discourses to align the poem with those discourses rather than to "elucidate" poems. But while I address this question I have to grapple with the lexicon that the situation assumes: that of making "difficult" texts "easier" as a way of making them "teachable," a notion which sees the classroom as a way to disseminate other poetics and poetries -- however to what "end" is unclear. It was decided, half dryly, that we were talking at the symposium about "the New Poetries." I wryly added that what was needed was a teaching anthology _Understanding New Poetries_ -- but this did seem in part what was wanted, a new cannon complete with its own secondary sources -- that is, that the sorts of collaborative investigation we were having *could* strive toward curricular ends. This is exactly what Lynn Keller's paper did (Bill's dialogue with Lynn afterwards would seem to corroborate this), and I agree tangentially with Bill's assertion that another binary (centripetal-podal/ centrifugal) "isn't interesting," i.e. that is ultimately limited as a critical tool (see Bill's recent essay on gender in the current _Shark_ for iteresting critical vectors) but it seems useful as a pedagogical tool, i.e. that teaching such oppositional models gives students something to think about/against. I'm not all that experienced as a teacher, but when as a student of Modernism especially it helped me significantly. I taught a creative writing class looking at models of production starting with Aristotle, and along a continuum (or in a larger set of ideas) such binary models break down, and things that looked opposed start to resemble eachother. The x/y model stands in for a moment and frames the situation as a way to make it for that moment clear (I'm reminded again that Bill's gender essay had x's and y's in it, all pointing this way and that). But as Bill said, it was one of the few pedagogical moments, and I'm thankful Lynn took the opportunity to open up her model to response and criticism. Also wanted to add that I did attend the working groups most enthusiastically, in part because other enthusiastic members stuck it out, and our leader Thalia (? - sorry, blanking) was super and enthusiastic, and provided exercises/ideas/hands on for dealing with "difficult" texts without roping them into a simplistic schema. For example, with Retallack's _Icarus Fffffalling_, we in groups of 4-5, decided how we would preform a page, which turned out to be a multivocal reading of the page, and we found that there were many different ways to read the page, both spinning out and spinning in . . . It was an intense weekend. 3 square meals a day (excellent food, plenty of vegetarian fare, bottles of wine at the dinner table, dessert at lunch even) + snacks and a beer& wine reception after the evening event (+chocolate covered strawberries!). And these were all very social. One got the sense that the organizers wanted to get people next to eachother constantly, in different configurations, with food and/or wine (if after 5 pm), to continue the collaborative investigation. One had to make space to sneak into the woods or to the waterfall, or to check out all the amazing buildings on the grounds, or to gaze out over the Hudson River Valley at some point, and with not much sleep (there was so much wine at the receptions that I think we were meant to spirit away a few bottles and continue after hours), this did lead to burn out & by sunday afternoon we'd fizzled to about 50 or so, down from about 120 or so (?). As with Bill, I'd say all the readings were super. I don't know what it was, but everyone was super. Maybe I was feeling well-fed, well-liked and generous, and so let go some of my critical edge. But I really do think it was super, that Joan et al. assembled a super bunch of people (all well-fed, well-liked and generous) -- and gave them enough time, and comfortable spaces, and food, and wine, and a beautiful setting . . . We were pampered. And so Juliana's response ("I want to put a word in for placelessness . . .") to Al Filreis & the Kelly Writer's House presenters (which was itself, earlier fashioned as a response to Bill's question to Bob Perelman (as I recall, how do we make poetic events possible? How do we get people together for poetry?) -- hit home. Why can't we have a waterfall at Buffalo where we can all sneak off to at 6 a.m. and go skinnydipping (right before the flyfishermen show up)? I'd like to hear more about where Juliana was going with that, with the notions of textual spaces vs. actual spaces. I think she was trying to de-heirachize, to say that it's not necessarily "better" to have the space (the endowment to establish the space, which i think was something like $40,000), but best to make the spaces possible, whichever way. That our models of poetic production shouldn't so closely resemble/rely on capitalistic models of production (more place, more voice! more materials, more production!). (All this as my heart goes out to the groundhog who finds himself lost on the concrete slab of a plaza outside the library where I'm typing this. A little girl wants to feed him cheetos.) I'm all ears. thanks & best, Linda * * * * Linda Russo lvrusso@acsu.buffalo.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:25:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: questo e un lavora per Superman In-Reply-To: <000201becbcd$3db726e0$c3920fce@tenacre> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On another list I have mentioned that a cheap shredder is an essential tool for publishers--not for manuscripts (except those that come without SASE), but for front matter. Turns all that paper into cheap packing material. I find all the self-hyping annoying, but it doesn't get between me and the poems. Except for the occasional "so-and-so recommended I send you this" when so-and-so is a poet I have published or simply admire, which can be useful. As to a larger annoyance, ianppropriate submissions, there seems to be no way to lay out one's prefernces so clearly as to avoid them. Let me be clear what I mean. I think all of us have tastes that are individual enough that very little of the unsolicited will be right for us. But a lot is on another planet--the church ladies writing in rhymed couplets who think that they fall into the category of unconventional because their take on god would raise Calvin's hackles, the high school poets, the folks writing lineated prose memoirs. But none of that concerns this group. At 02:40 PM 7/11/99 -0400, you wrote: >re Unsolicited Mss Letters, actually. the retro action of the editors >strikes me as too hearty. because admit it, the rules are fluid and let us >even say arbitrary. I see no reason to kvetch (that's how it sounded in >Massachusetts) as to how writers, you know, *submit*. editing a poem mag is >a job, maybe not remunerative but you weren't expecting that anyway. I >shouldn't say this but I've given money (small amounts, when I was a Have) >to a few mags and even a press, beyond the books I bought. it wasn't because >I thought the editors were hassled by what looks to me like normal >work-related petty hassles. I just thought these little, micro publishing >ventures, these pushes against the wall, needed support. I know publishing >aint easy, especially on PoBiz budgets, but eds and pubs have the control. >that a poet submitting might be a little or a lot disconnected could be >taken into account. I was about to sound an advisory note (use the force >wisely Luke) but screw it, I'm probably pissing people off concerning this >apparently important issue. I second David Golumbia's words: "to let the >lack of such (or even subtle mis-steps) get in the way of reading submitted >work is disturbing too...". I didn't check my horoscope to see if I should >be making public statements today, so maybe I'm out of line here. if so: >sorry. Allen Bramhall > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:56:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Waber Subject: Re: SUBMISSION IMPOSSIBLE In-Reply-To: <378954AC.8152B3F8@bc.sympatico.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On the recent flurry of posts regarding submission guidelines/steamblowing/reactions: I am reminded of my days as a chef, when on the kitchen side of the doors we would mumble, "This job would be great if it wasn't for all the customers". I also remember my great Uncle Peck telling me stories of growing up in Montana where for fun they would take two cats, tie one end of a rope to each tail, then hang the cats by the middle of the rope over a branch to watch the fight than ensued. As is often the case, there is a thesis and an antithesis, and I suspect the truth may lie somewhere inbetween. Having more submitters than subscribers is absurd. Expecting every submission to come it "just so" is equally absurd. It all comes down to what is reasonable. Is it reasonable for a Canadian publisher to expect an American SASE to have IRC's? Yes. Is it reasonable for a publisher who accepts electronic submissions to stipulate ASCII plaintext included in the body of the email? Yes. Is it reasonable for a publisher who's mission statement reads something like, "We endeavor to publish the unorthdox, the uncategorizable, the kinds of work that no mainstream publisher would touch", to have submission guidelines like, "Query with sample chapters and a plot synopsis"? No. Is it reasonable for a submitter to expect editorial feedback along with a rejection? No. Is it reasonable for a publisher to have submission guidelines? Yes. Is it reasonable for a publisher to expect submitters to have familiarized themselves with those guidelines? Yes. Is it reasonable to expect a publisher to publish something because the submitter has followed the guidelines precisely? No. Is it reasonable to reject a piece of work soley because it did not conform to the submission guidelines? No. You get the gist. I wish more submitters would spend more time targeting their submissions. It would make turn around times that much faster for those of us who do. Will it happen? No, of course not. There will always be knuckleheads and/or chuckleheads out there who go the Kilgore Trout route, scribble and send and come what may. Note to publishers--Waber's Maxim #1: If there is something that you can't change, find a way to make it work to your advantage. With all the rejection letters I have received (please, God, let someone backchannel me that it doesn't make a bad human being to have received rejection letters), I have never onced received--with the rejection letter--a subscription form, or a book list. Granted, I could and should get these things on my own, but, the fact of the matter is that by the very act of submitting I have identified myself as an excellent prospect for subscription or purchasing. By being rejected with no specific explanation, I am probably even more inclined to want to read the kinds of things that get accepted. That makes me targeted and motivated, and folks, it just don't get any better than that. I'm not saying that every rejection is a certain customer, but, I do think it's a huge missed opportunity for immediate sales. Barring that, how about the mailing list? Constant communication with a highly targeted mailing list is crucial for any small business. How much more highly targeted can the list generated from submissions be? Have I ever been added to a mailing list as a result of a submission? Nope. Note to submitters--Publishers do not have something that they are trying to jam down your throats. They have something you want, and it's your job to get it from them. If that means taking some time to find out how they like to see things presented, then I say that's time well spent. With all the impersonalization that comes from form letters and submission guidelines, it's easy to forget that in the end you are sending a letter from one living breathing sometimes happy sometimes stressed person to another living breathing sometimes happy sometimes stressed person. Dan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:30:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: memories of anti-semitism In-Reply-To: <52F601140@student.highland.cc.il.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Those lovely white chickens come home to roost. Unfortunately if one is in a minority in this country (could be worse--it's not Bosnia) one grits one's teeth a lot. There's still a lot of unthinking antisemitism around--there are even a few restricted communities left. He did get pretty smart about the bomb, at least, in Asphodel. At 08:28 PM 7/11/99 -0500, you wrote: > >My memory on the WCW quote re: Hiroshima was way off. Here it >is, from an article in the Village Voice by Eliot Weinberger: > > Speaking of Hiroshima, here is one of the masters, William > Carlos Williams, in a letter to another poet, Byron > Vazakas, dated August 7, 1945: "The day following > the atomic blast! -- the poor Jews who accomplished > it. Now we'll hate them worse than ever." > >Ah, those lovely white chickens... > >Kent > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:14:32 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Bennett Subject: Re: Sound Poetry > > I would suggest that checking out Richard Kostelanetz's Introduction to > _Text-Sound Texts_ would help. Kostelanetz suggests that his new term (or > Sound Poetry) deliberately eschews melody, etc, which would take it over > into music. But I don't think he would deny, & certainly I don't, that many > sound poets have learned a lot from scat singing, not to mention other > aspects of jazz... > Hello Douglas This area is becoming more of an interest for me recently and I have been trying to track down some texts or recordings which may be informative. Do you have any suggestions? Jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:31:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: peter neufeld Subject: Re: unsolicited mss letters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm going to have to throw my vote against any standard. I personally take a great deal of pleasure in reading the variety of cover letters we receive and I think people should feel free to include any information about themselves they deem relevant as an introduction to someone they may have never met. In the end, they have very little significance and are just that, an introduction, a postal how-do-you-do. I think there's a correlation between the length of the cover letter and whether or not the writer knows one of the editors personally or not--and that's perhaps the real issue to consider in how journal publications seem to operate. My favorite letters, however, are the ones we've received after rejecting writers that inform us of the incredible errors in judgment we've made. It was a new sub-genre of the letter I never knew existed before. Peter melodeon poetry systems/Aufgabe --- rebecca wolff wrote: > Yes, > > at Fence we get about 30 unsolicited mss a week. > > I think it's relevant to note that if we had as > many subscribers as we > have submitters--or even half as many--we'd be > golden. We'd be in heaven. I > do believe that the discrepancy between the two > constituencies (subscribers > and submitters) causes many editors to throw up > their hands in chagrin at > times. > > The best cover letter is: > > brief, as in, two very short paragraphs. One > paragraph says where you > saw/read/purchased whichever lovely journal is in > question and what there > is about the journal that made you want to be > included in its pages (stroke > the editors and show them that you've really > considered the journal); the > next gives a short list of other publications and/or > honors. > > No point mentioning: > > where you went to school, who you studied with, your > own opinion of your > work and what your work is > attempting/approaching/essaying. > > I second the caution against including a vita or a > pre-printed list of the > journals your work has appeared in. It just goes > straight into the > recycling bin. > > Thanks for giving me this opportunity. > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:09:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jamie Perez Subject: random.Q.re/Defoe [resend] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [resend: my address book was messed up and sending my mail to the listserv itself...sorry to administrators, don't know how long I've been doing that] Anybody know of anything worth reading written about _Defoe_ (Scalapino, 97?). I read it back then and have dabbled in reading sections of it here and there ever since. Would be interested in what others have had to say about it. My random thought about it: I think Ah-Ha's video "Take on Me," is an important text for reading this book. Somewhat tongue in cheek, somewhat serious. I suppose that's a rather pro-active reading though... A romp through the Poetics Archive gives a little fun reading on the subject, but not enough. jamie.p ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:11:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: unsolicited mss letters In-Reply-To: <19990712173144.12250.rocketmail@web1006.mail.yahoo.com> from "peter neufeld" at Jul 12, 99 10:31:44 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with what's below - I like the cover letters. Besides, isn't this sense of "I judge based only on what's on the page" a little retrograde? Of course, with COMBO I've avoided alot of this hoo-ha by deciding that our unsolicited contributors will come only from the ranks of those familiar with the mag (which I give away for free if necessary to avoid any sense of exclusion). But in the end, is any of this really such a big deal? I also like contributors notes - if you like a poem you read, it's nice to at least be able to flip and find out what city that poet lives in or some other places they've published, whether they have a book, etc. And may it goes a little way toward making sure we don't fetishize these things called poems, eh? -m. According to peter neufeld: > > I'm going to have to throw my vote against any standard. I personally > take a great deal of pleasure in reading the variety of cover letters > we receive and I think people should feel free to include any > information about themselves they deem relevant as an introduction to > someone they may have never met. In the end, they have very little > significance and are just that, an introduction, a postal > how-do-you-do. I think there's a correlation between the length of the > cover letter and whether or not the writer knows one of the editors > personally or not--and that's perhaps the real issue to consider in how > journal publications seem to operate. My favorite letters, however, are > the ones we've received after rejecting writers that inform us of the > incredible errors in judgment we've made. It was a new sub-genre of the > letter I never knew existed before. Peter melodeon poetry > systems/Aufgabe > > --- rebecca wolff wrote: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:46:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: A H Bramhall Subject: le livre est sur al table MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit looks like the horse has only been knocked senseless, so may I proffer the image of Ted Berrigan, for example, confronted by cover letters. my surmise: he would not take a narrow view of those words, and would read them for whatever ore he was inspired to find. okay, maybe you're not looking for bauxite today, but maybe someday... at any rate, there are people (I assume) at both ends of the submissions, and it's poetry in the middle, right? one morning after a heavy snowfall I rose early, shovelled at the home base, ran 10 miles to work (part of my idiom then), helped the building manager shovel out because it was a big job, and when my co-workers arrived they complained about the difficult drive to work. what do you know, I found satisfaction in my circumstance and they found none in theirs. I don't wear editor shoes but if I did I'm guessing I would learn to love even those cover letters, or I'd join the foreign legion. either way, I would continue to find poetry interesting and to find interesting poetry. AHB ps, all honour to those producing mags and books, by the way ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:38:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: Re: soapbox of submission In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yeah, why do it at all if the whole wide world weren't at stake? I hear you there. Anecdote upon anecdote: I was receiving submissions without a cover letter, and sometimes without a letter or an SASE. My first thought was, what am I expected to do with these poems? No SASE, I immediately threw them out. No cover letter, I sent them back unread, no letter of explanation. Kenning doesn't print contributors notes, thus I really haven't a use for publication / bio in a letter, EXCEPT insofar as these things merge with whatever sort of request a submiter (or "contributor") is making. After all, it is always, even in the case of solicited material, a request of someone's time and attention to submit work. I think it is key to include a cover letter of some sort, at least indicating that the work is coming with the intention of entering into conversation with the editor and her/his publication/press. Thus, it is a bit ridiculous to send to a publication/press with which one is unfamiliar. If it were only a matter of making the work available, the most direct and often most efficacious way to do this is to publish it yourself. With Kenning, the editorial focus (which is made as explicit as possible by means of occassional "editor's note"s) presupposes that I read unsolicited mss as well as solicited mss with an equal emphasis. They would all wind up in the same place. Another key way to enter into conversation with editors / publications is to purchase and read them. Patrick F. Durgin At 10:21 AM 7/12/99 -0500, rebecca wolff wrote: >Hello. It seems that often comments made in this venue are all too quickly >divorced from their pragmatic source, ie: > >Some guy (I think guy) asked what should be in a cover letter. The question >is one that implies a degree of ignorance of the appropriate contents of a >cover letter, and a desire to know more. > >Being an editor of a magazine who is often asked that very question, >presumably with quite direct results attached to my response, Iresponded >pragmatically, in such a way that might attempt to guide the querent toward >what I consider, in my editorial high-chair, to be the favored method of >writing a cover letter. This is because, being an editor, I am an >opinionated so-and-so. If someone asked you, a restaurant critic, say, how >you liked your portobello mushroom, you'd probably waste no time in >attempting to describe the degree of tenderness required for your pleasure. > > Fence does not allow --or at least inasmuch as is possible--annoying cover >letters to color our response to the actual poems submitted. But that >doesn't mean we don't find them annoying and wish they could be amended. >Amendment is the editor's dream. We wish to amend the whole wide world. > >A different question is: "Why do editors get so testy about submissions >submitted in ways they do not admire?" > >I would submit that this testiness is a hazard of the job, ie, we are >unpaid laborers and cannot help but feel cranky and/or testy. > >Please send portobello mushrooms with your submissions > > ___________________________________ k e n n i n g a newsletter of contemporary poetry _______________________________ http://www.avalon.net/~kenning ____________________________________ 418 Brown St. #10, Iowa City, IA 52245, USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:39:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: Kent Johnson, WCW, anti-semitism In-Reply-To: <199907121401.KAA16714@dept.english.upenn.edu> from "Michael Magee" at Jul 12, 99 10:01:10 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re: the complexity, also recall, in Spring and All, XXVI: "The Jew gets it straight--it / is deadly, terrifying-- // It is the Inquisition, the / Revolution". The white chickens are at XXI. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:49:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Williams's tomb sweepers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Michael Magee wrote: >"Despite accusations to the contrary, Williams was no anti-Semite. >He worked all his life closely with Jewish writers, from Kreyborg >and Bodenheim and Mina Loy to Zukofsky and West and Moss and Kamin >and Sol Funaroff and later with Shapiro and Ignatow and Sidney Salt >and Ginsberg and Levertov and any number of others. He was, >unquestionably, a product of his times and he did use the old >comic-strip vulgarisms, allowing such words as kike, nigger, wop, >jap, frog, Polack and the rest of it to infiltrate his speech and >his letters. Nor did he always escape the poular racial myths of >his time." Michael: More later, but for now just to point out that this quote from Mariani is rather pathetic as a "defense." Pound had strong relationships with Jewish writers too. One can be subject to "the popular racial myths of his time" and still have lots of chummy relationships with the subaltern other! (Remember Yugoslavia?) And as for those "comic-strip vulgarisms" (the Jewish kids in Brooklyn ate those comics right up, didn't they?) that suffuse WCW's letters, does Mariani imply that _everyone_ was using them? Of course WCW was a "product of his time" as are we all, and of course he's a "complex" figure. But choices can still be made, and one is not condemned (especially one whose self-proclaimed task is to cleanse the language!) to topple headlong into the most hateful vocabulary. Mariani's little quote is quite simply apologetic slop of the hero-worshipping kind. And as for your reading of the "irony" in Williams's remark about the Jews and the Bomb, I doubt it. "Kike" pops up like dandelions in May in his letters and little irony is apparent. Be careful here. It's one thing to misread comments about ready-made classroom phrases that Language poets use; this is something of a more serious kind. Kent ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:34:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lowther,John" Subject: Re: SUBMISSION IMPOSSIBLE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain i'd asked why editors cared about simultaneous submissions Carol Hamshaw wrote back saying (i'm parsing with emphasis); > just as we were putting the issue together, someone (...) saw the exact > piece in another journal. without having been told by the author (though I > hope we would have been when we came to sending out the formal contract) > we wasted some time, and very nearly would have wasted a certain amount of > money on production. (...) [if] it is a simultaneous submission: I feel > there is no sense spending the time to read it if you are from the start > possibly **competing with another publication to secure the rights.** > thanx carol, for all the detail and such - but i still find that i'm not very clear about some things in this - i take it that the capilano review "secures 1st time rights" or something like that ? you don't have permanent rights to it do you ? what strikes me as very strange, relative to how i think about it, is that i can't imagine *why* i wd care that something i'd published or was going to publish had appeared in some other locale or was to do so... - but then to learn that at least part of the problem is also that some editors (i'm extrapolating from you carol) feel that magazines are competing, presumable ~to win~ something, ie, "the rights" i wonder how many publishers of mags (on this list fer instance) feel this way ? or more specifically - how many after publishing, have "the rights" ? and is it seen as some sort of investment ? - i'm imagining that the hope runs something like this "when X is as famous as john ashbery, and they wanna do a _selected_ i'll get my payback then for this not too profitable publishing" somewhere i'd heard about all this stuff but i had the impression that it only held true for things like parnassus or the paris review - i guess everybody's just doing what they feel the need for - but for all you editors out there i'd like to note : i'm not competing with you and i don't feel, nor can i see how yr competing with me (ok, except maybe the paris review, whose ass i'm gonna wup next time i see it) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:06:06 -0400 Reply-To: levitsk@ibm.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R Democracy Subject: HELP WITH OUTREACH MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I'm starting a monthly series at the new women's bookstore: BLUESTOCKINGS in New York City and was wondering to which venues I can send out email releases of basic calendar info. and fyi, our first reading is as follows Poetry Reading: Akilah Oliver (the she said dialogues, Smokehouse Press, 1999) and Marcella Durand (City of Ports, Situations, 1999) will inaugurate the BELLADONNA* Reading Series at the Bluestockings Women's Bookstore 172 Allen Street, between Rivington and Stanton on the Lower East Side of Manhattan Thursday, August 26 at 9:00 pm. Contact (212) 777-6028 for info. Also: There will be 15 minutes provided for open readers. thanks, Rachel DL ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:54:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Shoemaker Subject: Re: Kent Johnson, WCW, anti-semitism In-Reply-To: <199907121401.KAA16714@dept.english.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Very glad to see Michael Magee's eloquent post on this subject. I was about to write something along similar lines myelf, but probably wouldn't have done as well. To class Williams alongside Pound as an anti-semite seems to me ridiculous, and totally unsupported by the facts, at least as I've come across them in my reading of, and about, Williams. I would also second Michael's reading of the Williams Hiroshima quote: it seems to me to be *about* anti-Semitism, not an expression of it. And just to add to the record a bit, it's worth remembering a couple of things. One is that Williams was, at least at times, inclined to *identify* himself as Jewish, much to his family's consternation. Another is that he got pissed as hell at Pound over the latter's growing fascism and anti-Semitism during the thirties, and said so. I'm not trying to say he was perfect--he certainly wasn't. But his situation was a lot more complex, and interesting, than Kent Johnson's comments on the subject would suggest. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 04:09:09 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Readers Organization: Re*Map Subject: Re: Anti- Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit as a post to the post-conversation. (And as a Jew, so no apologies from this end) What is the "best" piece of writing you all believe is Anti Semitic? novels? poetry? Plays? i.e. Cantos Williams, per this conversation. Wondering what the "list" thinks. (Black-List?) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 02:51:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: Re: bard conf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alert: Wonky post... The Bard conference on poetry and pedagogy interestingly suggested to me, afterwards, the question of differing pedagogical styles of the various institutions in which poets, theoreticians and scholars have trained, and are training, as teachers. I think a "bar" is an institution if it supports a poetry scene. That is I mean to question at the outset whether an institution has to be by definition an academic one. Rob Manery and I operated a "landless" poetry institution in Ottawa for a number of years, to which we found, for our events, monies and spaces as and where we could. At the conference nobody mentioned their favorite poetry bar institution, or actually spoke of the institution as a concept, except near the end, when Al Filreis initiated a discussion of his own pedagogy, a discussion directly dependent on the specific situation at/of Univ. of Penn, and Kelly Writers House, which he was "open" about, as to funding etc, in a way that no other institutional rep was. Harryette Mullen directly addressed teaching issues at UCLA; unfortunately, she had to leave the conference early. Academic institutions were for the most part represented implicitly at the conference. Their representation was by no means an agenda of the conference. The explicit agenda in this regard was, it seemed to me, to represent some poets as autonomous published individuals, ready for special hire to spread the word in existing institutional structures. (I don't mean to suggest that this was the agenda of the conference as a whole, but only with respect to this issue I am presenting, after-the-conference -- the issue of the institution.) Here I just want to barely even hint at a few things - after my experiences at the conference - from the vantage-point, and the question, of institutional affiliation. (Perhaps the word "institution" is a-buzz in my head because of a discussion on a listserve the other month, in conjunction with a panel at Writes House on the same subject -- with Shawn Walker, Josh Schuster, Al Filreis. Perhaps not.) Wonky post cont'd in next email... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 02:57:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: Re: bard conf - pt two MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wonky post con't: Since institutions were for the most part represented implicitly at the conference, mentioning four of them here, as I want so-briefly to do (and not more or less of them) is very much the result of friendships I have with some of the presenters, whose personal particulars I know, etc. I hope that's ok. That is the subjective side to choosing the institutions I do. But, there is an objective side as well -- which is that few participants actually located themselves institutionally when they addressed the conference topic of how to teach poetry. Michael Davidson and Page Du Bois, for instance, gave papers that for some participants became the conference highlights (e.g., Maz881 mentions Michael Davidson's paper), but their felt presence at the conference bore no relation to UCSD as place or program, where they both teach. (On top of that, Maz881, who not a presenter, was a student of Davidson's at UCSD. I think Du Bois was introduced as teaching in a classics department, which helped to redundify, ie explain, the emphases in her paper on Classics - but, "the classics" is a scholarly category, not an institutional one per se, except in a metaphorical sense.) Institutions I personally felt were more or less explicitly represented at the conference were Bard College itself, Poetics Program of the State University of New York at Buffalo, Teachers & Writers, and UPenn. In terms of dollars invested in poetics programming, I'd speculatively say that Buffalo has made by far the greatest poetics investment -- ie in student literary production, which has saturated the various scenes, with all sorts of materials, for quite some time -- of them all. I'm just suggesting that pedagogy is a collective style or practice, and can equally refer to the social dynamics of a poetry scene, as it can to an English department, or "alternative creative space" funded by the hipster beebop junkie on 79th St. -- or ad exec. The spirit of street alcohol, or the spirit of a sour resentiment fahrting from the ministry of an interior departmental bowel movement, inflamed allover by regret, envy and nascent intellectual dementia, compounded furthermore by brain shrinkage and the perverse taking to the wearing of bow ties, do have pedagogical outcomes. Having said all this, I don't really want to venture any further on this subject of a comparison of institutional pedagogies. I just want to broach it as a question for further discussion; then I'd love to. Let me just say: I felt them deeply at the conference. Like, "I felt." Perhaps it would be highly productive to address the question of "the institution" in this way at another conference, building on the excellent inaugural work that took place at Bard. To address the institution without getting hustled by promotional materials and advertorial jargon for this or that place would be the idea -- with poetry in the fore of attention. It would be interesting to hear about the DisEmbodied School of Breathing Nostrils, Kootenay School of Mountain-Comes-to-You, The Ivy League Drip, Popeye OPOYAZ, Creative Writers of Angelic Respiring in Mercedes Benzes, Romantic Materialists' School of Adjunct Engineering in Germinalist Progressivity, School of Finicky Humanists With Bent Toward One's Own Wax of Descartes, Proceduralists International -- Division of Hypertext Incorporated, Subsidiary of MicroDisney, School of World Dominance in Literary Production Factories of North American Pressers, AvantGarde TM, and so on. -louis ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 05:57:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: A H Bramhall Subject: The Rules Committee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit writing learns to start somewhere: that can't be helped. the word freezes because of willing passages of time. luckily, when time pulls thru, the rest of us can reclaim the land. the endless dialogue does things like that. finally, as in later that week, you'll look to see who spoke. were it that easy, everyone would crow. now it's only a little bit of night. there might be a mythology to follow, or squander. no time to look: merely waiting prepares us. now we have that gadget working; the signal can now be wielded. everybody spoke. the machine lives. 2) you weren't ready to listen because that's how messages wear out. I'm talking as a matter of fact. that seems like thriving to me. 3) poetry can be scruffy now, okay? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:03:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: rebecca wolff Subject: Re: Submission Crucible In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990712105603.007b01c0@iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Is it reasonable for a publisher who's mission statement reads something >like, "We endeavor to publish the unorthdox, the uncategorizable, the kinds >of work that no mainstream publisher would touch", to have submission >guidelines like, "Query with sample chapters and a plot synopsis"? No. Just for the record, since this sounds like it's talking about Fence: We don't ask for queries or sample chapters or etc. Since this thread seems to be viable, I'd like to ask a question, a marketing question: Mr. Waber proposes that rejection letters ought to be accompanied by a subscription form or some similar form of encouragement. I think this is a great idea, and in fact had meant to do just that when starting Fence, but was voted down by the rest of the Fence people on grounds of "adding insult to injury," "rubbing salt in the wound," etc. What do y'all think about this? Would you feel insulted, salted, annoyed, demeaned or otherwise antagonized by such an enclosure? I'd really like to know. Because we'd really like to have more subscribers. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:13:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: WCW, anti-semitism.... Comments: To: Chris Stroffolino In-Reply-To: from "Chris Stroffolino" at Jul 12, 99 07:40:14 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris and all, I believe there's a book out recently on Williams's Latin American-ness, isn't there? Can't remember the author. And, interestingly, Williams was evidently part Jewish, as Mariani points out in his biography (p. 411): "Back in the early 20's, Williams had told Louis Untermeyer about his Jewish heritage and about his gentle grandfather Solomon Hoheb. But by 1937 the family situation had changed drastically. His brother Ed had never forgiven him for making his Jewishness public." and there you have it: a Puerto Rican, Sephardic Jew "American poet" in front of a bank. -m. According to Chris Stroffolino: > > > That particular quote of WCW's to Vazakas (a gay Reading-ite) does > not, to me, seem particularly anti-semitic. He's pointing out a > social irony--the germans kicked out the jews that invented the bomb > that destroyed their allies. Even for a "non-public" statement, with > all its attendant "freedom of expression" including flippancy, there > is evident some feeling for the jewish there.... > On another point, is WCW's Puerto-Rican-ism. That he was himself > trying to "pass". It's weird how little (in an age of identity politics) > his puerto-rican element to the "american grain" is mentioned, > though I hear SUNY-BUFFALO just accepted someone to its Ph.D. program > who will deal with that issue in dissertation fashion.... > > chris > > On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, Michael Magee wrote: > > > Kent's recent stipulation that "WCW was anti-semitic in a rather robust > > way, no less than Ezra and T.S." is a real distortion - one loses all > > sense of particulars when one implies that Williams, Pound and Eliot are > > alike on this regard - and the inability to draw distinctions is a cousin > > to the inability to act. I would suggest reading Williams's very complex > > story "A Face of Stone." What Paul Mariani points out in his biography of > > Williams seems basically true: > > > > "Despite accusations to the contrary, Williams was no anti-Semite. He > > worked all his life closely with Jewish writers, from Kreyborg and > > Bodenheim and Mina Loy to Zukofsky and West and Moss and Kamin and Sol > > Funaroff and later with Shapiro and Ignatow and Sidney Salt and Ginsberg > > and Levertov and any number of others. He was, unquestionably, a product > > of his times and he did use the old comic-strip vulgarisms, allowing such > > words as kike, nigger, wop, jap, frog, Polack and the rest of it to > > infiltrate his speech and his letters. Nor did he always escape the > > poular racial myths of his time." > > > > As someone currently writing about WCW's relationship to African-American > > culture, I'm senstive to the vexed nature of his approach to race - trust > > me. But to simply call him anti-semitic or racist is to in fact say > > nothing at all. Among other things, one ends up missing the crucial fact > > of how the speech of ethnic minorities mediated Williams poetry: as in his > > famous characterization of his poetry as coming "out of the mouths of > > Polish mothers." Just who were these Polish mothers, do you think? I'd > > suggest that, like the Polish woman in "A Face of Stone," they were Jews. > > > > Likewise, the quote by Williams on Hiroshima which Kent had misremembered, > > "The day following the atomic blast! -- the poor Jews who accomplished it. > > Now we'll hate them worse than ever," seems to me bitterly ironic, fairly > > complex and, in any event, worth more than a rubber stamped condemnation. > > > > -m. > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:33:29 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: Carnivocal In-Reply-To: <199907130407.WAA28002@pilsener.ucs.ualberta.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I want to apologize to anyone who has already tried to order Carnivocal in the US. I posted the publicity on it in all innocence, but then someone wrote to tell me she had tried to order it & General had no knowledge of it. So I checked with Red Deer Press and received the following reply: <> Um, it seems that in my desire to advertize I jumped the gun a bit. If I can find out that orders can be sent directly to Canada, I will let the list know... Douglas Barbour Department of English University of Alberta Edmonton Alberta Canada T6G 2E5 (h) [780] 436 3320 (b) [780] 492 0521 http://www.ualberta.ca/~dbarbour/dbhome.htm A bottle thrown by loggers out of a wagon past midnight explodes against rock. This green fragment has behind it the _booomm_ when glass tears free of of its smoothness Michael Ondaatje ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:38:05 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: submission guidelines In-Reply-To: <199907130407.WAA28002@pilsener.ucs.ualberta.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Gee, it's all very interesting reading the back & forth here, but I must say I still tend to go with what a poet/editor told me many years ago: send in some poems & a SASE. The poems should speak for themselves. And I have to dmit that when I did edit, I found most accompanying letters got in the way... Douglas Barbour Department of English University of Alberta Edmonton Alberta Canada T6G 2E5 (h) [780] 436 3320 (b) [780] 492 0521 http://www.ualberta.ca/~dbarbour/dbhome.htm A bottle thrown by loggers out of a wagon past midnight explodes against rock. This green fragment has behind it the _booomm_ when glass tears free of of its smoothness Michael Ondaatje ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:49:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Welcome Message recap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Welcome to the Poetics List & The Electronic Poetry Center ..sponsored by The Poetics Program, Department of English, College of Arts & Science, the State University of New York, Buffalo /// Postal Address: Poetics Program, 438 Clemens Hall, SUNY Buffalo, NY 14260 Poetics List Moderator: Christopher W. Alexander Please address all inquiries to . Electronic Poetry Center: =3D Contents =3D 1. About the Poetics List 2. Subscriptions 3. Submissions 4. Cautions 5. Digest Option 6. Temporarily turning off Poetics mail 7. "No Review" Policy 8. 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Poetics Archives at the EPC Go to the Electronic Poetry Center and select the "Poetics" link from the opening screen. Follow the links to Poetics Archives. Or set your browser to go directly to . You may browse the Poetics List archives by month and year or search them for specific information. Your interface will allow you to print or download any of these files. ------------------- 10. Publishers & Editors Read This! PUBLISHERS & EDITORS: The Electronic Poetry Center listings of poetry and poetics information is open and available to you. We are trying to make access to printed publications as easy as possible for our users and ENCOURAGE you to participate! Send a list of your press/publications to , with the words EPC Press Listing in the subject line. You may also send materials on disk. (Write file name, word processing program, and Mac or PC on disk.) Send an e-mail message to the address above to obtain a mailing address to which to send your disk. Though files marked up with html are our goal, ascii files are perfectly acceptable. If your word processor will save files in Rich Text Format (.rtf) this is also highly desirable. Send us extended information on new publications (including any back cover copy and sample poems) as well as complete catalogs or backlists (including excerpts from reviews, sample poems, etc.). Be sure to include full information for ordering--including prices and addresses and phone numbers both of the press and any distributors. You might also want to send short announcements of new publications directly to the Poetics List as subscribers do not always (or ever) check the EPC; in your message please include full information for ordering. If you have a fuller listing at EPC, you might also mention that in any Poetics posts. Some announcements circulated through Poetics and the EPC have received a noticeable responses; it may be an effective way to promote your publication and we are glad to facilitate information about interesting publications. ------------------- END OF POETICS LIST WELCOME MSG ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:40:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: WCW, anti-semitism.... Comments: To: Michael Magee In-Reply-To: <199907121401.KAA16714@dept.english.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII That particular quote of WCW's to Vazakas (a gay Reading-ite) does not, to me, seem particularly anti-semitic. He's pointing out a social irony--the germans kicked out the jews that invented the bomb that destroyed their allies. Even for a "non-public" statement, with all its attendant "freedom of expression" including flippancy, there is evident some feeling for the jewish there.... On another point, is WCW's Puerto-Rican-ism. That he was himself trying to "pass". It's weird how little (in an age of identity politics) his puerto-rican element to the "american grain" is mentioned, though I hear SUNY-BUFFALO just accepted someone to its Ph.D. program who will deal with that issue in dissertation fashion.... chris On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, Michael Magee wrote: > Kent's recent stipulation that "WCW was anti-semitic in a rather robust > way, no less than Ezra and T.S." is a real distortion - one loses all > sense of particulars when one implies that Williams, Pound and Eliot are > alike on this regard - and the inability to draw distinctions is a cousin > to the inability to act. I would suggest reading Williams's very complex > story "A Face of Stone." What Paul Mariani points out in his biography of > Williams seems basically true: > > "Despite accusations to the contrary, Williams was no anti-Semite. He > worked all his life closely with Jewish writers, from Kreyborg and > Bodenheim and Mina Loy to Zukofsky and West and Moss and Kamin and Sol > Funaroff and later with Shapiro and Ignatow and Sidney Salt and Ginsberg > and Levertov and any number of others. He was, unquestionably, a product > of his times and he did use the old comic-strip vulgarisms, allowing such > words as kike, nigger, wop, jap, frog, Polack and the rest of it to > infiltrate his speech and his letters. Nor did he always escape the > poular racial myths of his time." > > As someone currently writing about WCW's relationship to African-American > culture, I'm senstive to the vexed nature of his approach to race - trust > me. But to simply call him anti-semitic or racist is to in fact say > nothing at all. Among other things, one ends up missing the crucial fact > of how the speech of ethnic minorities mediated Williams poetry: as in his > famous characterization of his poetry as coming "out of the mouths of > Polish mothers." Just who were these Polish mothers, do you think? I'd > suggest that, like the Polish woman in "A Face of Stone," they were Jews. > > Likewise, the quote by Williams on Hiroshima which Kent had misremembered, > "The day following the atomic blast! -- the poor Jews who accomplished it. > Now we'll hate them worse than ever," seems to me bitterly ironic, fairly > complex and, in any event, worth more than a rubber stamped condemnation. > > -m. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:42:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: COPE'S OPPEN--- Comments: To: Michael Magee In-Reply-To: <199907121401.KAA16714@dept.english.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Congrats on Stephen Cope for his work on Oppen recently published in THE GERM. It is a quite interesting piece. I don't agree with ALL of it, but it is fascinating and worth reading (especially for those of us who've never been especially great fans of his poetry)..... c ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:53:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lowther,John" Subject: Submission Crucible MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > hey rebecca > > i can't imagine being offended by receiving a subscription form or info to > that effect with a rejection > > also i don't think that the quote (who was that? waber?) sounds like it's > trying to mimic/mock you folks at fence > > anyway > > )L > > -----Original Message----- > From: rebecca wolff [SMTP:rwolff@ANGEL.NET] > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 10:03 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Submission Crucible > > >Is it reasonable for a publisher who's mission statement reads something > >like, "We endeavor to publish the unorthdox, the uncategorizable, the > kinds > >of work that no mainstream publisher would touch", to have submission > >guidelines like, "Query with sample chapters and a plot synopsis"? No. > > Just for the record, since this sounds like it's talking about Fence: We > don't ask for queries or sample chapters or etc. > > Since this thread seems to be viable, I'd like to ask a question, a > marketing question: > > Mr. Waber proposes that rejection letters ought to be accompanied by a > subscription form or some similar form of encouragement. I think this is a > great idea, and in fact had meant to do just that when starting Fence, but > was voted down by the rest of the Fence people on grounds of "adding > insult > to injury," "rubbing salt in the wound," etc. What do y'all think about > this? Would you feel insulted, salted, annoyed, demeaned or otherwise > antagonized by such an enclosure? > > I'd really like to know. Because we'd really like to have more > subscribers. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 23:50:03 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: John Tranter Subject: Announcing Jacket # 7 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If you don't wish to receive notifications of new issues of Jacket magazine, please say so, and you will be removed from the mailing list pronto. ================================================= Last week JACKET's front page counter ticked over the 100,000 mark, indicating that more than one hundred thousand separate visits (visits, not hits) had been made to the site since the first issue in October 1997. Can there really be that many subtle, discerning souls out there in the aether? Help us celebrate -- visit Jacket # 7 -- now (more or less) complete, at this URL: http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/jacket07/index.html Jack Spicer Feature -- Guest Editor -- CHRISTOPHER W.ALEXANDER Excerpt from Jack Spicer's 3rd Vancouver Lecture, 1965 Peter Gizzi, Introduction Jack Spicer, the Lecture Peter Gizzi, Afterword Graham Foust: Jack Spicer and the fiftieth anniversary issue of Poetry (Chicago) James Herndon: Jack Spicer and the art of Fran Herndon Kevin Killian and Lewis Ellingham: excerpt from "Poet Be Like God" Anya Lewin: "Things do not connect; they correspond" Laura Moriarty's poem "Spicer's City" Kristin Prevallet: Jack Spicer's Hell in "Homage to Creeley" Linda Russo: Joanne Kyger and the San Francisco Renaissance, 1957-65 Rob Wilson: Tracking Jack Spicer: The "Afterlife" of a US Counter-Poetics TIMELINE -- Historical events and the writings of Jack Spicer ================================================= As well, heaps of photos, visuals, and Regular Features, including: : COMMENT -- Elaine Equi - Unspeakable Ambitions REVIEWS Alice Notley on Kenward Elmslie Andrew Joron on Peter Gizzi Dale Smith on Lewis MacAdams Juliana Spahr on Bernadette Mayer's book "Sonnets" Tom Clark on Philip Whalen's "Overtime - Selected Poems" -- "While Kerouac heads out, Whalen tends to circle around slowly and return to certain obsessive themes and rhythms. His formal universe, as he advises John Cage in the poem quoted above, is not really unbounded space, but, like a tuned piano's, a 'closed system'. " ARTICLES Libbie Rifkin on Anne Waldman, Bernadette Mayer and the Gender of an Avant-Garde Institution -- "Freed from the regulatory processes that would render larger-scale institutions at least marginally accountable to some measure of diversity, institutions in this mold could be more capricious and vehement in their exclusions than their mainstream counterparts. Of the last years of Black Mountain College, for instance, Martin Duberman has noted that 'the hierarchy could be as rigidly exclusive, as impassible to the uninitiated - and more male chauvinist - than anything found on a traditional university campus'. " J.H.Prynne -- John Kinsella and Rod Mengham -- an Introduction to the poetry of J.H.Prynne Leslie Scalapino - Secret Occurrence Garrie Hutchinson - on Australian painter Arthur Boyd PROSE POEM / Hazel Smith POEMS / David Baratier, Gabriel Gudding, Joel Lewis, Stephen Oliver, Leslie Scalapino, Brian Kim Stefans, Rob Wilson, et alia QUIZ / For readers of Jacket # 4 who attempted to identify the quotes in the Green Quiz, but failed to do so because of an incapacity due to sloth, delirium tremens or incompetence, the answers are given in Jacket # 7. ================================================= Jacket is a free literary quarterly published on the Internet by Australian poet John Tranter. If you like Jacket, please tell your friends. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:03:09 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: bard conf In-Reply-To: <199907130651.CAA44658@dept.english.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 2:51 AM -0400 7/13/99, Louis Cabri wrote: >Academic institutions were for the most part represented implicitly >at the conference. Their representation was by no means an agenda >of the conference. The explicit agenda in this regard was, it seemed >to me, to represent some poets as autonomous published >individuals, ready for special hire to spread the word in existing >institutional structures. (I don't mean to suggest that this was the >agenda of the conference as a whole, but only with respect to this >issue I am presenting, after-the-conference -- the issue of the >institution.) > >Here I just want to barely even hint at a few things - after my >experiences at the conference - from the vantage-point, and the >question, of institutional affiliation. (Perhaps the word >"institution" is a-buzz in my head because of a discussion on a >listserve the other month, in conjunction with a panel at Writes >House on the same subject -- with Shawn Walker, Josh Schuster, >Al Filreis. Perhaps not.) > just wanted to say that I (maria d) explicitly drew attention to the fact that many different institutional/ pedagogical contexts were represented at the conference and that we'd do well to articulate some of those distinctions and what they meant. also, michael davidson, in a different way, during his talk, dwelt a great deal on academic institutions and their entanglement with various sorts of funding that affect what gets taught, what poetry gets written, how things get framed ideologically, etc. Also, Lyn H made the very apt comment that it is our institutions that need to be re-educated, not necessarily our students. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:54:58 -0400 Reply-To: mjk@acsu.buffalo.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mike Kelleher Subject: a l y r i c m a i l e r 12 Comments: To: UB Core Poetics Poetics Seminar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Folks, a l y r i c m a i l e r 12: William R. Howes Translations of Emily Dickinsons Poems as Microscopic Alphabetic Organisms Compared to Emily Dickinsons Poems as Microscopic Alphabetic Organisms. by Michael Basinski is up at http://writing.upenn.edu/spc/alyric/alyric12.html "Auraloralvisual pyrotechnics" - Newsweek "Saucy." -Tracey Lordes Enjoy, Mike ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:14:14 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Williams Tombstone Sweepers etc. Comments: To: Amoss@epi.ucsf.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kent Johnson's righteousness - or at least that tone - about nailing WCW to an anti-Semitic cross seems to me to indulge an easy dichotomy. I am not sure if Johnson's trying to throw the Doctor out with the bath water, but I always get uncomfortable when anyone (myself included) goes to the Holy ground with an implicit claim of purity - what ever might be the issue. I would go as far to say that my opposition to anti-Semitic, anti-Palestinian, racist, homophobic or any other abusive behavior involves a personal acknowledgment and desire to exorcise some part of my person that has inherited or learned those behaviors (via ample examples whether in the language or acted out on the street). I suspect there will always be that tension and fight in the culture, at least my experience of it. But going back to Williams, is it possible to view his double-dipping into offensive, particularly anti-Semitic language in the context of his half or part Jewishness? In fact, in the same breath, has any critic delved into this internal pluralism as one of the ways of looking into at least part of William's interest and willingness to take on American culture as a pluralistic condition. (Whereas Eliot and Pound, in the face of the European migrations of the turn of the century, clearly took the xenophobic route out of the country.) WCW is one of a number of great writers in this century who are half or part Jewish. In the context of the evidence and questions surrounding his anti-Semitic quotes, I think of Proust who, on one hand, was one of the public leaders in the fight to free Dreyfus and, on the other, Remembrance of Things Past has a strong share of anti-Semitic caricatures. I suspect these internal battles are part of the condition of being a blend of different cultures. Not being Jewish, I, nevertheless, do have a sense that the issues raised by those who are half-Jewish (in relationship to Jews and non-Jews) is bubbling as something not spoken or addressed, perhaps ignored by some as a painful taboo, or somehow an embarrassment to acknowledge. As to why, I cannot speak. These are issues, of course, that can be raised about the work of any writer who comes out of a biological blend of any historically oppositional groups (and perhaps classes). I suspect for many who carry such blends, it's both a gift and a curse - leading to these curious quandaries of point of view that come up in Williams and others. These blends and the particular consequent larger social overview, however, clearly lead to some great writing. Cheers, Stephen Vincent Kent Johnson wrote: >>Michael: More later, but for now just to point out that this quote from Mariani is rather pathetic as a "defense." Pound had strong relationships with Jewish writers too. One can be subject to "the popular racial myths of his time" and still have lots of chummy relationships with the subaltern other! (Remember Yugoslavia?) And as for those "comic-strip vulgarisms" (the Jewish kids in Brooklyn ate those comics right up, didn't they?) that suffuse WCW's letters, does Mariani imply that _everyone_ was using them? Of course WCW was a "product of his time" as are we all, and of course he's a "complex" figure. But choices can still be made, and one is not condemned (especially one whose self-proclaimed task is to cleanse the language!) to topple headlong into the most hateful vocabulary. Mariani's little quote is quite simply apologetic slop of the hero-worshipping kind. And as for your reading of the "irony" in Williams's remark about the Jews and the Bomb, I doubt it. "Kike" pops up like dandelions in May in his letters and little irony is apparent. Be careful here. It's one thing to misread comments about ready-made classroom phrases that Language poets use; this is something of a more serious kind. Kent>> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:34:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jarnot@PIPELINE.COM Subject: address query Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I am looking for addresses (regular or email) for the following people: Amiri Baraka Beverly Dahlen Serge Fauchereau John Granger Thom Gunn Drummond Hadley George Herms Joanna McClure Irving Petlin Gustaf Sobin Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Please back channel me at jarnot@pipeline.com Thanks, Lisa Jarnot ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:46:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. Comments: RFC822 error: MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. Comments: RFC822 error: MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Brian Lennon Subject: Re: Submission Crucible In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ---two more cents' worth: When subscription invitations are included with rejection slips, they inevitably end up being sent to submitters who have already subscribed to the publication. For a submitter, this is just as impersonal and irritating as it is for an editor to receive submissions from writers who clearly haven't looked at the magazine. Surely every member of a magazine's staff ought to know the subscriber list by heart, right??? It also implicitly links the rejection of work to the failure to subscribe, which I think is a mistake. In my two years at The Iowa Review, the best work I saw almost always came in cold--- often multiply submitted, from names I didn't know, and generally unconcerned with whether it was like anything we'd ever published before. The result is that every issue changed our own idea of "what we publish." Finding enough money to keep going is a huge problem, yes. But the problems really start when you begin to feel guilty rejecting subscribers/supporters. Brian Lennon rebecca wolff wrote: >Mr. Waber proposes that rejection letters ought to be accompanied by a >subscription form or some similar form of encouragement. I think this is a >great idea, and in fact had meant to do just that when starting Fence, but >was voted down by the rest of the Fence people on grounds of "adding insult >to injury," "rubbing salt in the wound," etc. What do y'all think about >this? Would you feel insulted, salted, annoyed, demeaned or otherwise >antagonized by such an enclosure? > >I'd really like to know. Because we'd really like to have more subscribers. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 07:05:03 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Juliana Spahr Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 10 Jul 1999 to 11 Jul 1999 (#1999-133) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Meant subject line to be placeless yet can't figure out how to change in pine. My only concern abaout place was that it kept getting presented as an absolute. Like I kept hearing, first get a place. And that worried me b/c I can't get a place. I squatted one at U of Hawai'i and then the football team squatted on top of me. I got crushed under their equipment and had to get out. So I wanted to say, there are things to do that aren't about place. Like I think it is really great that the Writers House, got a house, got a $40,000 startup, tehn got another million. I think that is the best thing ever. And I love the Writers House devotedly. But I think one could also take $20,000, if one can get that, and give it to graduate student and they can make 4 journals and two chapbooks eries and then yahoo, they've got a place in a different sense. Or I would rather have production over housing. But I do realize that sometimes one can have both. Which I imagine U Penn can have. And when you can get both, one should get both. So my point was not very profound. Just reflecting my anxiety wfrom a university that went from spending $4 aa square foot five years ago to $.32 a square foot last year. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:39:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: tracking Brenda Coultas and Gillian McCain (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Does anybody have recent phone numbers for Brenda Coultas or Gillian McCain? Backchannel would be great--thanks! Mark Wallace /----------------------------------------------------------------------------\ | | | mdw@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu | | GWU: | | http://gwis2.circ.gwu.edu/~mdw | | EPC: | | http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/wallace | |____________________________________________________________________________| ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:37:01 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Ellis Subject: Re: soapbox of submission Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Why do poets need to submit to anything? Given that we mostly believe each our authority to be absolute in the realm of composition, and by extension, to everything else that reference and/or non-references touches or "may" touch, it seems ridiculous to suddenly be compelled to convince some stranger, by letter, what a great guy you are, and that s/he should publish your accompanying poems, because, and because, ad nauseum. Silly to feel responsible for reading them, sure, and no doubt horrifying to actually write one, an alternative may be working quietly and patiently toward, well, what "end" is anyone working toward of late in The Art anyway? It might be a relief & pleasure to print your own poems, read/send them to friends, while writing occasionally to the editors of those publications that excite you and (try to) say in not inconsiderable terms what it is about the work in question so makes it with you, etcetera. Eventually someone may actually ASK for poems. I mean let's don't be coy about it, one home truth is that the (poetry) publishing enterprise IS related to personal relationships between and among those who appear in this or that publication, ie., it's all very much clan-oriented, despite claims to objectivity, plurality and all that, at base, one publishes those who they admire. Reasons for admiration are numerous, but in most cases it's something that can't be conspired toward in a cover letter. I don't know ... maybe there's too much "submitting" going on, without there being much groundwork laid out in terms of intersecting or common interests between those who have the Work and those who guide the Magazines. And then again, there's likely little groundword laid out in the efforts of those who submit blindly to the idea that blind submission leads somewhere beyond the prices of the stamps. It might be useful for us all to take some measure of what it is we are doing (beyond submitting), and WHO it is we are doing the how and why of it FOR. I, for one, get almost no submissions (for Oasia Broadsides), tho I don't advertise. I ask. Does that mean I'm operating a closed closet, a clothes closet, a close closet, what? Or I mean a "closed system"? In what ways and to what extent are we as editors supposed to remain "open" to all that accidence brings our way, including the cover letters covering the curricula vitae, previous publication lists and dangling modifiers of that sense of "person" that has us all on some impersonal mailing list of places to send their enormous manuscripts to? When Stephen Dignazio and I were doing :that:, we'd occasionally receive manuscripts of up to 100 pages, despite the stated maximum we could print was maybe five. Nothing WRONG, tho, with this, really just a matter of wanting each our own submissions to be personally regarded, like as if the editor had nothing else to read or do. Which sort of goes along with another misnomer, ie., that editors of magazines must therefore, in the minds of those who haven't attempted editing a magazine, have loads of money in addition to loads of time. So it was and is always difficult getting money for such projects, for this reason, and also because many of those most interested have perhaps even less money than the editors. But money is a problem for about 90% of the world's population. (What magazines are THEY submitting to, we wonder ... ). It's a disturbing conundrum, the hustling after what looks to be mostly reputation. Why does "authority" in the sense I mentioned at the outset of this note have to mean authority over others, the acquisition of power(publication = power, make no mistake). Poets are specialists, yet the tongue is profoundly common. That being so, literal distribution needn't be the emergency it sometimes seems to be. Power might be thought distributive rather than cumulative, and in that sense, the organs of distribution - the literal number of them - could usefully be expanded, rather than sticking to the submissive standards that a more crowded henhouse might be said to require. Ie., ever seen a schizophrenic chicken? 'Nuff said. S E >From: "Patrick F. Durgin" >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: soapbox of submission >Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:38:35 -0500 > > Yeah, why do it at all if the whole wide world weren't at stake? >I hear >you there. > Anecdote upon anecdote: I was receiving submissions without a >cover >letter, and sometimes without a letter or an SASE. My first thought was, >what am I expected to do with these poems? No SASE, I immediately threw >them out. No cover letter, I sent them back unread, no letter of >explanation. Kenning doesn't print contributors notes, thus I really >haven't a use for publication / bio in a letter, EXCEPT > insofar as these things merge with whatever sort of request a >submiter (or >"contributor") is making. After all, it is always, even in the case of >solicited material, a request of someone's time and attention to submit >work. I think it is key to include a cover letter of some sort, at least >indicating that the work is coming with the intention of entering into >conversation with the editor and her/his publication/press. Thus, it is a >bit ridiculous to send to a publication/press with which one is unfamiliar. > If it were only a matter of making the work available, the most direct >and >often most efficacious way to do this is to publish it yourself. > With Kenning, the editorial focus (which is made as explicit as >possible >by means of occassional "editor's note"s) presupposes that I read >unsolicited mss as well as solicited mss with an equal emphasis. They >would all wind up in the same place. > Another key way to enter into conversation with editors / >publications is >to purchase and read them. > Patrick F. Durgin > >At 10:21 AM 7/12/99 -0500, rebecca wolff wrote: > >Hello. It seems that often comments made in this venue are all too >quickly > >divorced from their pragmatic source, ie: > > > >Some guy (I think guy) asked what should be in a cover letter. The >question > >is one that implies a degree of ignorance of the appropriate contents of >a > >cover letter, and a desire to know more. > > > >Being an editor of a magazine who is often asked that very question, > >presumably with quite direct results attached to my response, Iresponded > >pragmatically, in such a way that might attempt to guide the querent >toward > >what I consider, in my editorial high-chair, to be the favored method of > >writing a cover letter. This is because, being an editor, I am an > >opinionated so-and-so. If someone asked you, a restaurant critic, say, >how > >you liked your portobello mushroom, you'd probably waste no time in > >attempting to describe the degree of tenderness required for your >pleasure. > > > > Fence does not allow --or at least inasmuch as is possible--annoying >cover > >letters to color our response to the actual poems submitted. But that > >doesn't mean we don't find them annoying and wish they could be amended. > >Amendment is the editor's dream. We wish to amend the whole wide world. > > > >A different question is: "Why do editors get so testy about submissions > >submitted in ways they do not admire?" > > > >I would submit that this testiness is a hazard of the job, ie, we are > >unpaid laborers and cannot help but feel cranky and/or testy. > > > >Please send portobello mushrooms with your submissions > > > > >___________________________________ > k e n n i n g > a newsletter of contemporary poetry > _______________________________ >http://www.avalon.net/~kenning > ____________________________________ > 418 Brown St. #10, Iowa City, IA 52245, USA > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:52:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: The good doctor on circumcision MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Steve Shoemaker wrote, and Michael Magee, Chris Stroffolino, and Michael Boughn agree: >To class Williams alongside Pound as an anti-semite >seems to me ridiculous, and totally unsupported by the facts, at >least as I've come across them in my reading of, and about, >Williams. I would also second Michael's reading of the Williams >Hiroshima quote: it seems to me to be *about* anti-Semitism, not an >expression of it. The anti-semitisms of WCW, Pound and Eliot were indeed different, cast according to the idiosyncracies of each. I never said they were exactly the same. What I said is that WCW was "robust" in his anti-semitism just as Pound and Eliot were robust in proclaiming theirs. The record is there, and it is amazing and somewhat disturbing to see people more or less trying to sweep it under the rug. An essay on Williams that may cause the four listees mentioned above to reconsider is found in Eliot Weinberger's _Works on Paper_. There, Weinberger quotes an extraordinary exchange between Pound and Williams on circumcision. I would ask someone to write back about the "irony" in WCW's comments therein. And on the Hiroshima quote, which the above Listees find slyly ironic or else innocuous: Why not read the comment in its most obvious and revealing sense--particularly given WCW's well-documented prejudices? The remark is firmly in the classic knee-jerk blame-the-Jew reaction (a la Hollywood, big banks, etc.): Truman, Byrnes, Stimson, the Pentagon disappear, and it's the Jews (the small minority of Jews on the Manhattan Project one supposes) who are behind it all... One could ask: Would someone who was _not_ anti-semitic be capable of making such a statement? By the way, because I thought Weinberger would be interested in this exchange, I shared some of it with him. In response to Michel Magee's remark that "... to simply call him anti-semitic or racist is to in fact say nothing at all. Among other things, one ends up missing the crucial fact of how the speech of ethnic minorities mediated Williams poetry: as in his famous characterization of his poetry as coming "out of the mouths of Polish mothers." Just who were these Polish mothers, do you think? I'd suggest that, like the Polish woman in "A Face of Stone," they were Jews. Weinberger wrote: "Magee is totally wrong that the Polish mothers were Jewish: obviously he doesn't know much about New Jersey! (You can quote me on that one!!)" I point this out in the spirit of suggesting that when it comes to Williams, this matter of his vox populi as "mediated by ethnic voices" is not unmediated by the ideological aura of "quintessential americanness" that has grown up around his figure. And it may cause us to jump to hasty conclusions. Kent ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:15:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Billy Little Subject: Re: Williams's tomb sweepers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" gee kent, what would he be saying if it weren't ironic? the awkwardness of the opening phrase makes me imagine there's an opposition, a previous sentence where he says the day of the blast everyone congratulates the scientists... the day after...the poor jews, he doesn't say the bloodthirsty so and sos, he doesn't say the money-hungry moabites, he says the poor jews with perhaps an understood phrase here which might go who get blamed for everything, he says we because he's a democrat, he's not aloof, he wants us to realize we're all in the same boat -- we have met the enemy and he is us. cultural brainwash is hard for the best of us to transcend, i think he's saying hatred is a cornerstone of america, anti-semitism was preached by the catholic church into the 60s, whites only beaches government policy into the 60s, until after Williams death. the church pitted the blacks against the jews diverting attention from their own slumlording, Henry Ford pointed the poor at the jews to conceal his own merciless exploitation, q.v. flint and fairborn?. Some of this discussion seems very typical of the American Left purist self obliteration nobody's good enough for my revolution dissension encouraged by the government shall we measure the reader against the read. first ones first stones billy dotter of d. amerkun rebelution com little Why don't they call it the cannon? why don't they call it the canyon? the big hole you are left in after you are taught and must unlearn to get even even to see at all. forbidden plateau fallen body dojo 4 song st. nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 canadaddy zonko@mindless.com zonko ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:00:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: Re: SUBMISSION IMPOSSIBLE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I second David Golumbia's words: "to let the >lack of such (or even subtle mis-steps) get in the way of reading submitted >work is disturbing too...". I didn't check my horoscope to see if I should >be making public statements today, so maybe I'm out of line here. if so: >sorry. Allen Bramhall For what it's worth here at Outlet I prefer subtle mis-steps; it's like realizing your "blind date" is a real person--heartwarming. I agree that the writer ought to be at least vaguely familiar with the mag. Also, it is nice to hear feedback on prior issues, and this is often the only way it comes--not a great spectacle but true nonetheless. And I'd also agree that all's fair in simultanaeity when you haven't heard for, say, the length of a typical pregnancy. Elizabeth Outlet http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:17:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ' ' Who can tell what will happen in this topsy-turvy world, what the new day will bring? Who can foretell anything in this floating world, where dreams are words and words are dreams, where words dream sunsets and creeks spil- ling over, flooding lands with waters and delights? In this fair world, nothing is ever for certain, and we give ourselves up to whatever happi- ness may befall us for the shortest while. In this evanescent world of ours, butterflies may return to their chrysalides, clouds may pour forth their very souls upon the earth. In this fleeting world, fortunes are made and lost in an instant, loves sing forth upon new green shoots, and elder logs make way for myriad and luminescent forms of life. __________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:43:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: A H Bramhall Subject: A Party For Ted MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I miss Ted Berrigan tho I didn't know him. not to valorize him, not in this edgy, price-conscious age. I miss the effect of him making or missing his effect. didn't he have fun, no matter what hole he happened to dig? one sees clearly that I don't know him, he never saw me, we never parleyed. yet anyone can think of the possible range, and the impossible. suddenly the rain seems glamourous because we, you and I, have been discussing it and dodging it, and remembering someone who did something, being something to our something. you know, personal stuff in an age of cash rebates. no, valorization doesn't work. Ted Berrigan will be Ted Berrigan till the very day he doesn't die. no matter if the Collected Poems And Wants Ads of the poet finds its way onto my shelf, the writer will be something, the reader something else. that doesn't mean heat can't exist, we've all seen the loss of heat. so now a car goes by because it's early morning. just linkage, a new age concept. if you buy ten of these we'll throw in one of what you want, till the end of time. I miss Ted Berrigan but not him only. I too have lived, thus my biography. I could give particulars but they exist as marketing ploys. I sense something somewhere because words haven't left, not in this rainy climate of value. I get wise, or think I do. this business of what remains, when someone leaves, or never was there, and other questions: who needs them? need them or not, I will and you will continue to repeat them, even with this valuable rain. and Ted Berrigan will remain somewhere. isn't that just about enough? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 04:59:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: Re: Submission Crucible -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>>Mr. Waber proposes that rejection letters ought to be accompanied by a subscription form . . . "adding insult to injury," "rubbing salt in the wound," etc. What do y'all think about this? Would you feel insulted, salted, annoyed, demeaned or otherwise antagonized by such an enclosure? I'd really like to know. Because we'd really like to have more subscribers. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why do you say only "rejection letters" should be accompanied by a form? What is it about your ~acceptance~ letters or, for that matter, even solicited contributors that makes you leave them out of the equation? If you'd have qualms sending unasked-for subscription forms to, say, a Charles Bernstein, or Geoffrey O'Brien, or Fanny Howe, when you notify them of publication, that hesitation should apply to those whom you decline to publish, as well. Some things to consider: It's perfectly legitimate for a magazine to run a subscription campaign, and even to assemble a mailing list from the addresses of "submitters." But, in scrupulous business terms, that effort should be treated as its own separate account; otherwise, you're piggybacking your development campaign onto the backs of somebody else's 33 cent stamp. There may be genuine reasons for deciding not to subscribe to journals and to buy them in bookstores, instead. The covers of perfectbound journals are usually not designed to be folded over and squashed to fit into narrow city mailboxes. So immediately, subscription means reading a damaged copy. The publication schedule of small press journals is, as a rule, undependable. You never know exactly when they're going to come out. To be truly subscription-oriented, journals would have to hold themselves to the same firm commitment of unbending dates as periodicals, guaranteeing when the books will be sent out, and those dates should be advertised as such. A subscription is a ~contract.~ We're conditioned to these nuisances of punctuality and efficiency, and paying for something that you're never sure when you'll see it may be a reason for its unpopularity. Also, the climate of non-literary journal magazines (glossies) we're acculturated to, where subscriptions are standard, has learned to run certain features to encourage an air of dialogue between the subscriber/reader and the magazine. Specifically, letters to the editor columns or "polls" as part of the aura that builds a subscription base. That's what you'd be buying into. Such lures foster (even if an illusion) an impression of things being ~interactive,~ so that subscription fees are dismissed as only part of a larger two-way communication. A subscription campaign requires ~bait,~ in addition to the product itself. In same Madison Avenue glossy culture, subscribers are offered substantial financial discounts off newstand copies, which literary journals do not offer. Or t-shirts or mugs. By sending out subscription forms like that, now you're the one entering into the "pretty please" realm of the unsolicited. And you risk having the reputation of your journal and its logo become part of the junk mail pile. Personally, I've been spending about $35.00 a month, currently, sending off for small press journals ($3, maybe $5, rarely $7 a pop) who do not have national distributors. (That does not include the off-the-rack ones I buy, at about one a week; I have been known to buy $80.00 worth of literary magazines at a single shot.) I find it presumptuous, this bias that "submitters" are somehow not pulling their share of the weight. How do you ~know~ that the recipient of the rejection letter hasn't bought every issue to date? But, I must say, I very much like the feel of ~not~ playing into conventional consumerism that comes of this practice. It feels very personal: whoever mailed that journal wrote "Thanks!" on the outside of the mailing envelope! Converting the audience ("submitters") into cash cow returns the literary journal to a whole ethos (sorry) of target demographics and such, which I thought the iconoclasm of the poetry was ostensibly subverting. And once literary journals have become mixed into the blizzard of "Bill me later" forms, why not just belly up and subscribe to ~W?~ An alternative to treating the (frankly unpromising) "submitters" as golden goose might be to step up the drive for advertisers. I hope this broadens the ramifications for "we'd really like to have". JJ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:53:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Balestrieri, Peter" Subject: Name That Quote MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" In "My Darling Clementine," Alan Mowbray (who's playing Thorndike, the drunken Tragedian) says farewell to Francis Ford (who's playing Dad, the old porter and Thorndike's drinking buddy and keeper) and recites some lines that begin "Great souls" and then there's "allegiance" in the middle and it ends with "burn." If anybody recognizes this quote, please let me know. Pete ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:18:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: (Fwd) WCW [from E. Weinberger] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The following is from Eliot Weinberger,who has written on Williams's anti-Semitism in _Works on Paper_ (New Directions). Kent ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:09:19 -0400 To: KJOHNSON@student.highland.cc.il.us From: Eliot Weinberger Subject: WCW Dear Kent-- Thanks for forwarding me the various letters on WCW, anti-Semitism, and the Bomb. A few notes: 1) WCW is notoriously resistant to all attempts to summarize his thoughts or opinions. Nevertheless, his writings are strewn with anti-Semitic remarks: The short story that begins: "He was one of those fresh Jewish types you want to kill at sight, the presuming poor whose looks change the minute cash is mentioned." Or the essay "Against the Weather" that claims that Judaism is a "tribal-religious cult" that is "precisely the equivalent" of Fascism. (Written in 1939!) "Some fucking bastard of a yid." "Horrible overfed Jewish types." And so on. All of which must be taken in the context that one of WCW's grandparents was a Jew. 2) "Some of his best friends..." Well, ok. So were Pound's. (But not Eliot-- the worst of the bunch because he was a snob.) Consider this extreme case: Simultaneous to his promotion of the terrorist-segregationist Kasper, Pound was having a warm correspondence with Langston Hughes. (They had first become friends when Ez contributed to a fund-raiser for the Scottsboro Boys!) Along with Jewish friends and African American lovers, WCW was also collaborating with the bizarre Chinese White Supremacist David Rafael Wang. 3) WCW's so-called Puerto-Ricanness has been explored, not so convincingly, in a book by Julio Marzan called *The Spanish American Roots of WCW*. It is rather like Alexandre Dumas' Negritude. WCW was not trying to "pass," as someone said: he came from the age of the melting pot, and his were very white (Spanish) Puetro Rican roots. 4) The assertion that the Polish mothers were Jewish is really a stretch. Polish Jews are "Polish Jews" or "Jews." The default setting for "Pole" is Polish Catholic, just as it is white for "American." 5) Hiroshima. When I first published the WCW letter-- in my essay on Yasusada, as an example of the unreliability of poets as "witnesses"-- it struck me as a bizarre take on the explosion of the Bomb the day before. Since then I've come across an enigmatic poem by Lorine Niedecker, written a few months later, and I now wonder whether the identification of the Bomb as a specifically Jewish artifact was not more general: New! Reason explodes. Atomic split shows one element Jew Now hide who can bombarded particles of international pride 6) It seems to me undeniable that it is very difficult to think of a major American modernist who was not 1) black or Jewish AND 2) not racist or anti-Semitic. Hatred is an absolutely intrinsic part of American modernism, and as the heirs of that legacy we have to work it out. all best-- Eliot ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 04:29:04 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Readers Organization: Re*Map Subject: Re: Meow Press is Moving! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dear list: trying to find Joel K. and MEOW press. If any of you have heard from him within the last month--backlist pls. I'd appreciate it. Todd Baron ReMap ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 07:50:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: URGENT: Staff are being cleared from KPFA station, arrests are being made!]] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------EEAA4FD71FF563A5B18FBE0F" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------EEAA4FD71FF563A5B18FBE0F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thot this would interest list members -- Pierre -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [Fwd: URGENT: Staff are being cleared from KPFA station, arrests are being made!] Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 06:24:24 +0100 From: John Whiting Reply-To: John Whiting Organization: Diatribal Press To: John Whiting Even as I write my review of Matthew Lasar's _Pacifica Radio_, it threatens to become an obituary. When a self-perpetuating group of people sit in absolute control of a large amount of money, they want to play with it. John --------------EEAA4FD71FF563A5B18FBE0F Content-Type: message/rfc822; name="nsmailLB.TMP" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="nsmailLB.TMP" Return-Path: Received: from dodo.prod.itd.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.99]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA10035 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 05:34:23 +0100 Received: from adv (ip71.houston13.tx.pub-ip.psi.net [38.27.213.71]) by dodo.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA01352; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <01f301becdb0$50038a20$b7d51b26@adv> Reply-To: "savepacifica" From: "savepacifica" To: "savepacifica" Subject: URGENT: Staff are being cleared from KPFA station, arrests are being made! Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 23:19:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 A critical moment is at hand. At this time (8:30 PM PDT, 7/13/87) guards are acting under orders of the Pacifica National Board to clear the KPFA building of protesters and ALL STAFF!! Mark Mericle was forcibly removed from the air earlier today, inspiring a protest demonstration, which at this time consists of 300+ demonstrators. The guards are now acting under orders of the Pacifica National Board to remove not only the protesters, but also ALL STAFF. Protesters and staff are being arrested and taken away. Let your voice be heard! Go to the station and protest the incredible acts of the board! Go and witness democracy disappearing from Pacifica ... As always, check http://www.savepacifica.net for the latest on the crisis. Earlier, Media Alliance received a copy of a disturbing e-mail, copied below -------- TEXT OF E-MAIL RECEIVED TODAY BY MEDIA ALLIANCE IN SAN FRANCISCO... UNAUTHENTICATED AS OF 6 PM TUESDAY! (Note: Micheal Palmer is a real estate developer in Houston, and a member of the KPFT advisory board. He has been said to favor the sale of either KPFA or WBAI - both of which are "grandfathered" onto commercial frequencies and are worth about $60 million and $120 million respectively. The money would ostensibly be used to set up an endowment for Pacifica. KPFB, referred to in paragraph 2, is a low power transmitter in Berkeley, which reaches only the immediate Berkeley area. It was originally set up to simulcast KPFA's coverage to areas in North Berkeley which cannot receive KPFA clearly because of hills between the transmitter and that area. It broadcasts some original programming, including live coverage of Berkeley city council and school board meetings) >> From: Palmer, Micheal @ Houston Galleria, >> mpalmer@cbrichardellis.com >> To: 'Mary Francis Berry', ma@igc.org >> >> Hello Dr. Berry, >> >> I salute your fortitude in scheduling a news conference opportunity >> in the beloved Bay Area regarding one of the most pressing issues >> of our time............ >> >> But seriously, I was under the impression there was support in the >> proper quarters, and a definite majority, for shutting down that unit >> and re-programming immediately. Has that changed? Is there >> consensus among the national staff that anything other than that is >> acceptable/bearable? I recall Cheryl saying that the national staff >> wanted to know with certitude that they supported 100% by the >> Board in whatever direction was taken; what direction is being >> taken? >> >> As an update for you and Lynn I spoke with the only radio broker I >> know last week and his research shows $750,000-$1.25m for >> KPFB. There would be a very "shallow pool" of buyers for a >> repeater signal such as this and it would be difficult to do a >> marketing effort quietly due to the shortage of buyers. So there is >> no profound latent value to that asset. The primary signal would >> lend itself to a quiet marketing scenario of discreet presentation to >> logical and qualified buyers. This is the best radio market in history >> and while public companies may see a dilutive effect from a sale >> (due to the approximate 12 month repositioning effort needed), they >> would still be aggressive for such a signal. Private media >> companies would be the most aggressive in terms of price, which >> he thinks could be in the $65-75m range depending on various >> aspects of a deal. It would be possible to acquire other signals in >> the area, possibly more than one, to re-establish operations, but it >> could take a few years to complete if we want to maximize >> proceeds from the initial license transfer, or leave only $10-20m in >> arbitrage gain when purchase(s) is complete. None of this reflects >> tax consequences. This broker, just like any other that would >> undertake such an effort, would need certain agreements in place >> prior to starting. >> >> Mary I think any such transfer we would ever consider requires >> significant analysis, not so much regarding a decision to go >> forward, but how to best undertake the effort and to deploy the >> resulting capital with the least amount of tax, legal and social >> disruption. I believe the Finance Committee will undertake a close >> review of the Audigraphics data provided recently to determine what >> it is costing us per listener, per subscriber, per market, per hour of >> programming...in order give the Executive Director and the General >> Managers benchmarks for improvement. Even with that data my >> feeling is that a more beneficial disposition would be of the New >> York signal as there is a smaller subscriber base without the long >> and emotional history as the Bay Area, far more associated value, >> a similarly dysfunctional staff though far less effective and an >> overall better opportunity to redefine Pacifica going forward. It is >> simply the more strategic asset. >> >> With this in mind I would encourage frank description of the >> realities of the media enviornment we operate in and of Pacifica's >> available resources to participate and have impact in the evolving >> media world. The Executive Committee, at a minimum, should have >> access to experts (whether from Wall Street, NPR/CPB, Microsoft >> or otherwise) to get a strong reality check (me included) about >> radio and Pacifica's position in it so that informed decisions can be >> made. My feeling is that we are experiencing a slow financial death >> which is having the normal emotional outbursts commensurate with >> such a disease. We will continually experience similar events, in >> fact we have been experiencing similar events over the past several >> years, primarily because we are not self supporting through >> subscriber contributions and have a self imposed constraint on >> asset redeployment that leaves us cash starved at a time when our >> industry is being propelled in new directions, each requiring capital >> outlays of consequence. We're boxed in at our own will. This board >> needs to be educated, quickly, and to take action that will be far >> more controversial that the KPFA situation. How can we get there? >> >> So, now I've exhaled more than I should, but you know where I'm >> at. Let's do something. >> >> MDP --------------EEAA4FD71FF563A5B18FBE0F-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:56:45 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: ordering Carnivocal In-Reply-To: <199907140409.WAA02251@pilsener.ucs.ualberta.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To, I hope, clarify further: Red Deer Press (its Marketing Assistant) told me this: <> That would be to call Raincoast Books, which has a (Canadian) 1-800-663-5714. If, as seems to be the case from here to the US, the 800 number doesn't work, people could try their e-mail address: info@raincoast.com It's $16.95 CAN (+ postage, I'd assume). Douglas Barbour Department of English University of Alberta Edmonton Alberta Canada T6G 2E5 (h) [780] 436 3320 (b) [780] 492 0521 http://www.ualberta.ca/~dbarbour/dbhome.htm A bottle thrown by loggers out of a wagon past midnight explodes against rock. This green fragment has behind it the _booomm_ when glass tears free of of its smoothness Michael Ondaatje ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:43:47 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: katy@MAIL.BWAY.NET Subject: Re: Submission Crucible I think it's absolutely reasonable. Katy Lederer
>Is it reasonable for a publisher who's mission statement reads something
>like, "We endeavor to publish the unorthdox, the uncategorizable, the kinds
>of work that no mainstream publisher would touch", to have submission
>guidelines like, "Query with sample chapters and a plot synopsis"?  No.

Just for the record, since this sounds like it's talking about Fence:  We
don't ask for queries or sample chapters or etc.

Since this thread seems to be viable, I'd like to ask a question, a
marketing question:

Mr. Waber proposes that rejection letters ought to be accompanied by a
subscription form or some similar form of encouragement. I think this is a
great idea, and in fact had meant to do just that when starting Fence, but
was voted down by the rest of the Fence people on grounds of "adding insult
to injury," "rubbing salt in the wound," etc. What do y'all think about
this? Would you feel insulted, salted, annoyed, demeaned or otherwise
antagonized by such an enclosure?

I'd really like to know. Because we'd really like to have more subscribers.

========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:21:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robin Kemp Subject: My new chapbook! (Shameless plug) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear poet friends: I am putting out my second chapbook, titled "Goin' For Broke", for the simple reason that I hope to use the proceeds to pay my fall tuition! It's a mix of formal, narrative, and experimental free-verse poetry -- some of which has been or will be published elsewhere; others of which actually won an award. For those of you who have my 1994 chapbook "Brave Walking," I am pleased to say that the work in this chapbook is even better! Each copy is $5. (An extra buck for postage and handling is gratefully accepted.) If you're interested, please backchannel me your snail-mail address, or mail check/m.o. directly to: Robin Kemp 1107 Dante St. New Orleans, LA 70118-2027 Selling poetry to pay for school?! It may sound impossible, but I think it will happen if I can sell about 250 copies by August 17. (Registration is the 18th; so far I am almost 1/3 of the way there. If I sell 75 books = 1 class, 147 books = 2 classes, 237 books = 3 classes.) Thank you, everybody! And a special shout out to my friends in Atlanta and Philly/West Chester! Much love, Robin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:59:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Weiser Subject: Re: Submission Crucible Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In response to Rebecca Wolf's question- > I personally wouldn't feel insulted if you enclosed a subscription form with a rejection notice because if I am submitting to your magazine it means I like it and am probably wanting to subscribe at some point. Karen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:36:20 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: geraets Subject: Under New Management: NZ's new writing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Some of you may be aware that Alan Loney, a fine poet and editor, has recently relinquished the editing of A BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF THE WHOLE WORLD, a magazine of experiemental writing in New Zealand. It continues as the only magazine in NZ supporting and supported by experimental writers. The June issue now available, ABDOTWW/12, comprises a reissue of Leigh Davis's long poem book, WILLY'S GAZETTE, which first appeared in 1983. The magazine is proud to be involved in the reissue of this landmark book. For those of you who may have a specific interest in Leigh's book, or in new writing in NZ, please feel most encouraged to be in touch. The magazine is produced quarterly and a year's subscription is a mere $US25 (postage included). John Geraets Editor--ABDOTWW geraets@internet.co.nz 11-20 Poynton Tce Auckland 1001, NZ. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:04:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Persons Subject: Re: submission guidelines Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Years ago I sent in poems and SASE. Then read article in literary magazine in which several editors of poetry magazines termed this practice rude and thoughtless. The *least* I could do was to introduce myself, give the editors some sense of who was sending the poems, and speak briefly but in detail of the last issue of their magazine. An editor on this list prefers to have graduate school(and when attended), if any, and recent publications in order to *place* the poet. Please, editors, publish these preferences right along with the address for submissions. thanks, RP ---------- >From: Douglas Barbour >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: submission guidelines >Date: Tue, Jul 13, 1999, 10:38 AM > > Gee, it's all very interesting reading the back & forth here, but I must > say I still tend to go with what a poet/editor told me many years ago: send > in some poems & a SASE. The poems should speak for themselves. And I have > to dmit that when I did edit, I found most accompanying letters got in the > way... > > Douglas Barbour > Department of English > University of Alberta > Edmonton Alberta Canada T6G 2E5 > (h) [780] 436 3320 (b) [780] 492 0521 > http://www.ualberta.ca/~dbarbour/dbhome.htm > > A bottle thrown > by loggers out of a wagon > past midnight > explodes against rock. > This green fragment has behind it > the _booomm_ when glass > tears free of of its smoothness > > Michael Ondaatje > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:54:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear CHris, What happened to the "you're welcome to join" letter. I can't find it. m ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:56:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: (Fwd) WCW [from E. Weinberger] In-Reply-To: <3209251207@student.highland.cc.il.us> from "KENT JOHNSON" at Jul 13, 99 05:18:51 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kent, last post on this quickly tiring strain: 1) Eliot Weinberger's post to you below is significantly more measured in its evaluation of WCW than your own posts were; 2) nonetheless, his quoting of the line "He was one of those fresh Jewsih types you want to kill at sight" is a misrepresentation: it occurs in the short story I mentioned before, "A Face of Stone" where it is *completely undone* over the course of the story, as the doctor finds out that the wife of this man [the "Polish mother" I mentioned before who is indeed Jewish] had "contracted rickets in German occupied Poland because of severe malnutrition, that her entire family had been wiped out over there." Okay? 3) To say, "Yeah, Pound had some Jewish friends too" is to distort the picture: Williams had an *overwhelming* number of friendships with Jewish poets and thinkers - few of them sheepish (i.e. they would have really let him have it for any perceived anti-semitism.) Look, I'm not trying to champion Williams's approach to race here, I'm simply saying that to witch hunt him on this issue is *paralyzing* - it prevents us from making any distinctions, any ethical choices, and in fact, it replicates the very phenomenon of separating-wheat-from-chaff that is the modus operandi of fascist action. When Weinberger says that "All of which must be taken in the context that one of WCW's grandparents was a Jew," he is pointing toward precisely what I, and many others, have been saying: that the question, "Why do anti-semitic trusims pepper Williams's writings?" is not so easily answered; but if answered complexly might be pretty valuable. -m. According to KENT JOHNSON: > > Dear Kent-- > > Thanks for forwarding me the various letters on WCW, anti-Semitism, and the > Bomb. A few notes: > > 1) WCW is notoriously resistant to all attempts to summarize his thoughts > or opinions. Nevertheless, his writings are strewn with anti-Semitic > remarks: The short story that begins: "He was one of those fresh Jewish > types you want to kill at sight, the presuming poor whose looks change the > minute cash is mentioned." Or the essay "Against the Weather" that claims > that Judaism is a "tribal-religious cult" that is "precisely the > equivalent" of Fascism. (Written in 1939!) "Some fucking bastard of a yid." > "Horrible overfed Jewish types." And so on. All of which must be taken in > the context that one of WCW's grandparents was a Jew. > > 2) "Some of his best friends..." Well, ok. So were Pound's. (But not > Eliot-- the worst of the bunch because he was a snob.) Consider this > extreme case: Simultaneous to his promotion of the terrorist-segregationist > Kasper, Pound was having a warm correspondence with Langston Hughes. (They > had first become friends when Ez contributed to a fund-raiser for the > Scottsboro Boys!) Along with Jewish friends and African American lovers, > WCW was also collaborating with the bizarre Chinese White Supremacist David > Rafael Wang. > > 3) WCW's so-called Puerto-Ricanness has been explored, not so convincingly, > in a book by Julio Marzan called *The Spanish American Roots of WCW*. It is > rather like Alexandre Dumas' Negritude. WCW was not trying to "pass," as > someone said: he came from the age of the melting pot, and his were very > white (Spanish) Puetro Rican roots. > > 4) The assertion that the Polish mothers were Jewish is really a stretch. > Polish Jews are "Polish Jews" or "Jews." The default setting for "Pole" is > Polish Catholic, just as it is white for "American." > > 5) Hiroshima. When I first published the WCW letter-- in my essay on > Yasusada, as an example of the unreliability of poets as > "witnesses"-- it struck me as a bizarre take on the explosion of the > Bomb the day before. Since then I've come across an enigmatic poem by > Lorine Niedecker, written a few months later, and I now wonder > whether the identification of the Bomb as a specifically Jewish > artifact was not more general: > > New! > Reason explodes. Atomic split > shows one element > Jew > > Now hide > who can bombarded particles > of international > pride > > > 6) It seems to me undeniable that it is very difficult to think of a major > American modernist who was not 1) black or Jewish AND 2) not racist or > anti-Semitic. Hatred is an absolutely intrinsic part of American modernism, > and as the heirs of that legacy we have to work it out. > > > all best-- > > Eliot > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:08:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Purity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT May I indulge in some self-defense, please? Stephen Vincent wrote: >Kent Johnson's righteousness - or at least that tone - about nailing >WCW to an anti-Semitic cross seems to me to indulge an easy >dichotomy. I am not sure if Johnson's trying to throw the Doctor out >with the bath water, but I always get uncomfortable when anyone >(myself included) goes to the Holy ground with an implicit claim of >purity - what ever might be the issue. I would go as far >to say that my opposition to anti-Semitic, anti-Palestinian, racist, >homophobic or any other abusive behavior involves a personal >acknowledgment and desire to exorcise some part of my person that >has inherited or learned those behaviors Stephen, if I point out, as I did, that there is textual evidence of a strong anti-Semitic strain in Williams, why is this "self-righteousness"? I responded to what I felt was a significant blind spot in Billy Little's typically-provocative post, and did so in a reasonable way, I thought. Then there were four indignant responses, all of which strongly denied the applicability of the term, a couple of these calling my post "ridiculous." So I responded, pointing people to some specific evidence, and now am accused by you of being self-righteous, by implication blind to my own likely racism, and of trying to throw WCW "out with the bathwater." I _love_ Williams. If he was more of a prick, more humanly sinful than the canon-makers have let on, that does nothing to diminish the greatness of his poetry. And in some ways the darkness makes the greatness all the more fascinating! The record is the record (which, yes, is open to differing interpretations), and I think it's best to talk about it without the innuendo you interject above. Kent ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:25:02 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Williams Tombstone Sweepers etc. In-Reply-To: <2e2fd12c.24bcbfd6@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" nice post, stephen. i remember when the very Jewish Tom Lehrer's song "National Brotherhood Week" played on the air, and the line "Everybody hates the Jews," was roundly criticized by Jews and non-Jews for being anti-Semitic, while i think, in fact, every Jew also recognized its ironic "so what else is new" shrug --but didn't necessarily want that sense of irony aired to the non-Jewish world for fear that it would be read straight and thus possibly fan flames of anti-Semitism. It's like the risk a Jew takes when telling a "Jewish joke" (*not* an anti-Semitic joke) in front of non-Jewish friends who may then go tell it in a context (for instance, in a setting where there are no Jews) that makes it far more volatile. At 12:14 PM -0400 7/13/99, Stephen Vincent wrote: >Kent Johnson's righteousness - or at least that tone - about nailing WCW to >an anti-Semitic cross seems to me to indulge an easy dichotomy. I am not sure >if Johnson's trying to throw the Doctor out with the bath water, but I always >get uncomfortable when anyone (myself included) goes to the Holy ground with >an implicit claim of purity - what ever might be the issue. I would go as far >to say that my opposition to anti-Semitic, anti-Palestinian, racist, >homophobic or any other abusive behavior involves a personal acknowledgment >and desire to exorcise some part of my person that has inherited or learned >those behaviors (via ample examples whether in the language or acted out on >the street). I suspect there will always be that tension and fight in the >culture, at least my experience of it. > But going back to Williams, is it possible to view his double-dipping >into offensive, particularly anti-Semitic language in the context of his half >or part Jewishness? In fact, in the same breath, has any critic delved into >this internal pluralism as one of the ways of looking into at least part of >William's interest and willingness to take on American culture as a >pluralistic condition. (Whereas Eliot and Pound, in the face of the European >migrations of the turn of the century, clearly took the xenophobic route out >of the country.) WCW is one of a number of great writers in this century who >are half or part Jewish. In the context of the evidence and questions >surrounding his anti-Semitic quotes, I think of Proust who, on one hand, was >one of the public leaders in the fight to free Dreyfus and, on the other, >Remembrance of Things Past has a strong share of anti-Semitic caricatures. I >suspect these internal battles are part of the condition of being a blend of >different cultures. > >Not being Jewish, I, nevertheless, do have a sense that the issues raised by >those who are half-Jewish (in relationship to Jews and non-Jews) is bubbling >as something not spoken or addressed, perhaps ignored by some as a painful >taboo, or somehow an embarrassment to acknowledge. As to why, I cannot speak. >These are issues, of course, that can be raised about the work of any writer >who comes out of a biological blend of any historically oppositional groups >(and perhaps classes). I suspect for many who carry such blends, it's both a >gift and a curse - leading to these curious quandaries of point of view that >come up in Williams and others. These blends and the particular consequent >larger social overview, however, clearly lead to some great writing. > >Cheers, >Stephen Vincent > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:54:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Carol L. Hamshaw" Subject: Re: SUBMISSION IMPOSSIBLE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We publish with First serial rights. We, as all journals in Canada do, have a policy to publish only original, unpublished work. This is largely due to the policy of our major funder, The Canada Council, who stipulate that journals publish unpublished work. Nearly all journals in Canada receive significant amount of support from the Can-Council, and its the main reason any of them survive. It is unfortunate that the infrastructure, policies and many decisions are determined by the capitalist system but until you can actually publish and print without it costing money, we have to negotiate that. I have learned that TCR pays its contributors at the high end of the scale, and we're proud of that, that we can and do support writers and artists. We aim to survive so we can continue to do that. Since I am only the Managing Editor of my journal, and there is an Editor who makes the final decisions about what to publish, I don't think of myself as an editor first but as an Arts Administrator. I fill in grant application forms, handle the subscription list, promotions, publicity, manage the reading of 100 submissions a month with a small group of volunteers, organize and prepare board meetings, fulfill all the legal requirements of being a nonprofit society, etc. I look at it as a matter of survival and pragmatics; the editor does the artistic direction. In order to gain resources and maintain them, I admit I do see this as a business and make decisions based on principles like "inefficiency" "strain on resources" and what not. So if a submission, or anything else is obviously going to use up the time of myself, the editor, and/or the volunteers without a possibility of fruition or a high likelihood of difficulty that outweighs the results, I make the decision to reject it. The simultaneous submission policy, as the policy of original, and unpublished work, is clear in our guidelines which can be obtained by mail, email or on our website; they are also listed in several writing market directories, though i have recently discovered that that is with some severe mistakes on occasion. I didn't put TCR into the position of competition, I think the simultaneous submitter does that, out of a lack of knowledge for what effect it has on the journal and of the monetary structure that the journal exists in. On a final note, arts in Canada seems to be under a government compensation system: the arts are presumed to not be able to survive in the regular consumer market so the governments (municipal, provincial and federal) devise programs that fund the arts in order to compensate for this fallacy of our economy. The programs are full of hoops, and attempts at judging the value of a project, its longetivity, and audience range, in order to have a rationale to justify funding it. This results in a lot of catch-22s, most obviously that the larger one's audience is, the more worthy of government support it is but the size of audience is determined by the amount of money an organization gets from the private sector, in subscriptions, admissions, etc. Related to this is the constant encouragement to arts groups to become more independent and if they don't make efforts towards financial independence, their funding is reduced or completely cut. So while an arts nonprofit can begin being protected from capitalist imperatives, it hardly remains protected from it (not that I think it should be, entirely), as the ideology of market values seeps over through the grant criteria and adjudication process. I don't know what to do about it. "Lowther,John" wrote: > i'd asked why editors cared about simultaneous submissions > > Carol Hamshaw wrote back saying (i'm parsing with emphasis); > > > just as we were putting the issue together, someone (...) saw the exact > > piece in another journal. without having been told by the author (though I > > hope we would have been when we came to sending out the formal contract) > > we wasted some time, and very nearly would have wasted a certain amount of > > money on production. (...) [if] it is a simultaneous submission: I feel > > there is no sense spending the time to read it if you are from the start > > possibly **competing with another publication to secure the rights.** > > > thanx carol, for all the detail and such - but i still find that i'm not > very clear about some things in this - i take it that the capilano review > "secures 1st time rights" or something like that ? you don't have permanent > rights to it do you ? > > what strikes me as very strange, relative to how i think about it, is that i > can't imagine *why* i wd care that something i'd published or was going to > publish had appeared in some other locale or was to do so... - but then to > learn that at least part of the problem is also that some editors (i'm > extrapolating from you carol) feel that magazines are competing, presumable > ~to win~ something, ie, "the rights" > > i wonder how many publishers of mags (on this list fer instance) feel this > way ? or more specifically - how many after publishing, have "the rights" ? > and is it seen as some sort of investment ? - i'm imagining that the hope > runs something like this "when X is as famous as john ashbery, and they > wanna do a _selected_ i'll get my payback then for this not too profitable > publishing" > > somewhere i'd heard about all this stuff but i had the impression that it > only held true for things like parnassus or the paris review - i guess > everybody's just doing what they feel the need for - but for all you editors > out there i'd like to note : i'm not competing with you and i don't feel, > nor can i see how yr competing with me > > (ok, except maybe the paris review, whose ass i'm gonna wup next time i see > it) -- Carol L. Hamshaw Administrator Edgewise ElectroLit Centre http://www.edgewisecafe.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:11:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: The good doctor on circumcision In-Reply-To: <2D96BB284C@student.highland.cc.il.us> from "KENT JOHNSON" at Jul 13, 99 12:52:12 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I find it amusing that by indicating a poem and using the word complexity I find myself implicitly accused of being an apologist for anti-Semitism. It must be nice be so . . . sure. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:20:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Taylor Brady Subject: Re: URGENT: Staff are being cleared from KPFA station, arrests are being made!]] In-Reply-To: <378C7971.2124568E@csc.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pierre, Thanks for passing this along - this morning KPFA is playing only prerecorded broadcasts. Many staff, paid and unpaid, have been barred from the building after yesterday's demonstrations, during which programmer Dennis Bernstein was forcibly removed from the control booth by private security goons hired by Pacifica executive director Lynn Chadwick, and 52 protesters were arrested. It's unclear to me right now whether Bernstein has been fired, thus joining Larry Bensky and Robbie Osman, both of whom were dismissed for violating an inconsistent and rarely-invoked "internal gag rule" when they reported on-air about Chadwick's firing of KPFA general manager Nicole Sawaya. As further evidence of the national foundation's bad faith, their lawyers are moving ahead in pressing charges against protesters arrested in an earlier non-violent demonstration, some of whom were subjected to citizen's arrests by Ms. Chadwick herself after the Berkeley cops sought to resolve the situation without taking people into custody. Apparently the forcible application of state power couldn't come fast enough for the executive director of an organization with its roots in opposition to that very power, and whose nationally-syndicated news program, Democracy Now, bills itself as "the exception to the rulers." All of these moves are rooted in the Foundation's efforts to "restructure" KPFA in order to maximize what Chadwick and Pacifica board chair Mary Francis Berry have been calling, in a fairly odious rhetorical sleight-of-hand, "diversity." Of course, this means nothing more than market share, as is made amply evident by the "Plan B" option discussed in the e-mail attachment you sent. For listees outside the Bay Area (and the WBAI and KPFK broadcast areas in NYC and LA), today's article in the SF Bay Guardian might be useful as a pointer to more info: "KPFA's local advisory board - along with the boards of sister stations KPFK, in Los Angeles, and WBAI, in New York - has filed suit against Pacifica, charging that the foundation's new governance structure violates California's corporation law (see "Pacifica Power Grab," 2/17/99). For more information, go to www.savepacifica.net" Sorry to take so much bandwidth for a non-poetry issue, but it felt particularly resonant in light of the past few days' postings on poetic/public "space." I.e., that here is a public space of both the architectural and "productive" (thanks, Juliana) variety - and really, in terms of radio, one of only a small handful left, given that the "other" public radio, NPR, is now a wholly-owned subsidiary of Archer Daniels Midland. Not to mention that KPFA is probably the only station that ever would have given Jack Spicer a radio show... Best, Taylor -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Pierre Joris Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 4:50 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: URGENT: Staff are being cleared from KPFA station, arrests are being made!]] << Message: nsmailLB.TMP (5.56 KB) >> thot this would interest list members -- Pierre -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [Fwd: URGENT: Staff are being cleared from KPFA station, arrests are being made!] Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 06:24:24 +0100 From: John Whiting Reply-To: John Whiting Organization: Diatribal Press To: John Whiting Even as I write my review of Matthew Lasar's _Pacifica Radio_, it threatens to become an obituary. When a self-perpetuating group of people sit in absolute control of a large amount of money, they want to play with it. John ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 12:14:19 -0500 Reply-To: dillon@icubed.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard Dillon Organization: E L E M E N O P E Productions Subject: Re: soapbox of submission MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If a pop song is a hit it is played on a million stations at once. But in the paper based lit biz your songwerke gets one shot in one fanatic mag and that's it. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:17:58 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tisa Bryant Subject: Contact Info for Tan Lin Hello, all! Does anyone have contact information for Tan Lin? E-mail or street address would be particularly good, phone fine too. Thanks in advance! Tisa ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:13:54 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Subject: Re: partly Jewish writers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Curious antecedent to Stephen Vincent's writers of partly Jewish descent is Michel de Montaigne, born 1533 C.E., *son of Pierre Eyquem ... & his wife Antoinette de Louppes, the wealthy descendant of a Spanish or Portuguese Jewish family...* quoting J.M.Cohen's introduction to his Penguin Classics trans of Montaigne essays. Just what this has to do with the Essays if anything is unclear. There may well be much more to say about Proust, who could hardly avoid being aware of his part-Jewish identity during the Dreyfus affair. Maybe it would have been more obvious explicit or troubling an issue for Montaigne if he had lived in closer contact with the Inquisition in Spain, instead of in France. But 19th/20th century senses of national & racial identities may have been a more prominent insistent & troubling context than that of the 16th century in France for the issue to be an issue of concern? Tony Green -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Vincent To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Thursday, 15 July 1999 02:59 Subject: Re: Williams Tombstone Sweepers etc. >Kent Johnson's righteousness - or at least that tone - about nailing WCW to >an anti-Semitic cross seems to me to indulge an easy dichotomy. I am not sure >if Johnson's trying to throw the Doctor out with the bath water, but I always >get uncomfortable when anyone (myself included) goes to the Holy ground with >an implicit claim of purity - what ever might be the issue. I would go as far >to say that my opposition to anti-Semitic, anti-Palestinian, racist, >homophobic or any other abusive behavior involves a personal acknowledgment >and desire to exorcise some part of my person that has inherited or learned >those behaviors (via ample examples whether in the language or acted out on >the street). I suspect there will always be that tension and fight in the >culture, at least my experience of it. > But going back to Williams, is it possible to view his double-dipping >into offensive, particularly anti-Semitic language in the context of his half >or part Jewishness? In fact, in the same breath, has any critic delved into >this internal pluralism as one of the ways of looking into at least part of >William's interest and willingness to take on American culture as a >pluralistic condition. (Whereas Eliot and Pound, in the face of the European >migrations of the turn of the century, clearly took the xenophobic route out >of the country.) WCW is one of a number of great writers in this century who >are half or part Jewish. In the context of the evidence and questions >surrounding his anti-Semitic quotes, I think of Proust who, on one hand, was >one of the public leaders in the fight to free Dreyfus and, on the other, >Remembrance of Things Past has a strong share of anti-Semitic caricatures. I >suspect these internal battles are part of the condition of being a blend of >different cultures. > >Not being Jewish, I, nevertheless, do have a sense that the issues raised by >those who are half-Jewish (in relationship to Jews and non-Jews) is bubbling >as something not spoken or addressed, perhaps ignored by some as a painful >taboo, or somehow an embarrassment to acknowledge. As to why, I cannot speak. >These are issues, of course, that can be raised about the work of any writer >who comes out of a biological blend of any historically oppositional groups >(and perhaps classes). I suspect for many who carry such blends, it's both a >gift and a curse - leading to these curious quandaries of point of view that >come up in Williams and others. These blends and the particular consequent >larger social overview, however, clearly lead to some great writing. > >Cheers, >Stephen Vincent > >Kent Johnson wrote: > >>>Michael: > >More later, but for now just to point out that this quote from >Mariani is rather pathetic as a "defense." Pound had strong >relationships with Jewish writers too. One can be subject to "the >popular racial myths of his time" and still have lots of >chummy relationships with the subaltern other! (Remember Yugoslavia?) > >And as for those "comic-strip vulgarisms" (the Jewish kids in >Brooklyn ate those comics right up, didn't they?) that suffuse WCW's >letters, does Mariani imply that _everyone_ was using them? Of course >WCW was a "product of his time" as are we all, and of course he's a >"complex" figure. But choices can still be made, and one is not >condemned (especially one whose self-proclaimed task is to cleanse >the language!) to topple headlong into the most hateful vocabulary. >Mariani's little quote is quite simply apologetic slop of the >hero-worshipping kind. > >And as for your reading of the "irony" in Williams's remark about the >Jews and the Bomb, I doubt it. "Kike" pops up like dandelions in >May in his letters and little irony is apparent. Be careful here. >It's one thing to misread comments about ready-made classroom phrases >that Language poets use; this is something of a more serious kind. > >Kent>> > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:07:59 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: joan houlihan Subject: Schizophrenic Chickens Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Greetings-- I am new to the list and following this thread with interest. This latest mail makes absolutely clear, for those who doubted it, that WCW was most certainly anti-semitic. Whether his form of it was as "robust" as that of Pound or Eliot, seems to me to be a kind of unhelpful hair-splitting--certainly, it was less "robust" than Pound's if you consider robust to mean having some real-world impact outside of a small circle of friends and associates. But what is the point, aside from historical or biographical interest, in this fact about WCW (or any of the others)? Does anyone really believe that there's more than biographical information at stake here; i.e. that the work is somehow "contaminated"? When Pound was denied, by a close vote, the Bollingen (or was it Nobel? Can't recall) Prize for Literature, the vote against him was a vote against his beliefs (his acts of treason, really). Many people felt this was wrong-headed--that the work, not the man, should be judged. I agree. I personally find the idea that the man and work are inseparable to be an absurd idea, and one that leads to all kinds of falsity--the falsity of trivializing the beloved personage's hateful beliefs so that one can remain enamored of the work; the falsity of trivializing reactions to all such hateful beliefs and remarks as "politically correct" so as to remain enamored; the falsity of attributing historical context (everybody did it) to such remarks so as to to remain enmored; and the falsity of presuming that everyone holds such beliefs, but are not as "honest" about expressing them. Why attempt to "save" the work from the man? Can't we assume the man is always merely the man, the mud instrument for the work? In fact, if anything can ever save the man, it is the work. All that being said, I also recognize that many good and senstitive people can no longer enjoy the work once the source is found to be contaminated. However, this fact should not lead us into the error of denial. Yes, those were schizophrenic chickens--or maybe just "compartmentalized" ones. Cheers, Joan Houlihan, Poetry Editor (New) Editor's Picks, Web Del Sol http://webdelsol.com/Editor's_Picks/ >From: KENT JOHNSON >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: (Fwd) WCW [from E. Weinberger] >Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:18:51 -0500 > >The following is from Eliot Weinberger,who has written on Williams's >anti-Semitism in _Works on Paper_ (New Directions). >Kent > >------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- >Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:09:19 -0400 >To: KJOHNSON@student.highland.cc.il.us >From: Eliot Weinberger >Subject: WCW > >Dear Kent-- > >Thanks for forwarding me the various letters on WCW, anti-Semitism, and the >Bomb. A few notes: > >1) WCW is notoriously resistant to all attempts to summarize his thoughts >or opinions. Nevertheless, his writings are strewn with anti-Semitic >remarks: The short story that begins: "He was one of those fresh Jewish >types you want to kill at sight, the presuming poor whose looks change the >minute cash is mentioned." Or the essay "Against the Weather" that claims >that Judaism is a "tribal-religious cult" that is "precisely the >equivalent" of Fascism. (Written in 1939!) "Some fucking bastard of a yid." >"Horrible overfed Jewish types." And so on. All of which must be taken in >the context that one of WCW's grandparents was a Jew. > >2) "Some of his best friends..." Well, ok. So were Pound's. (But not >Eliot-- the worst of the bunch because he was a snob.) Consider this >extreme case: Simultaneous to his promotion of the terrorist-segregationist >Kasper, Pound was having a warm correspondence with Langston Hughes. (They >had first become friends when Ez contributed to a fund-raiser for the >Scottsboro Boys!) Along with Jewish friends and African American lovers, >WCW was also collaborating with the bizarre Chinese White Supremacist David >Rafael Wang. > >3) WCW's so-called Puerto-Ricanness has been explored, not so convincingly, >in a book by Julio Marzan called *The Spanish American Roots of WCW*. It is >rather like Alexandre Dumas' Negritude. WCW was not trying to "pass," as >someone said: he came from the age of the melting pot, and his were very >white (Spanish) Puetro Rican roots. > >4) The assertion that the Polish mothers were Jewish is really a stretch. >Polish Jews are "Polish Jews" or "Jews." The default setting for "Pole" is >Polish Catholic, just as it is white for "American." > >5) Hiroshima. When I first published the WCW letter-- in my essay on >Yasusada, as an example of the unreliability of poets as >"witnesses"-- it struck me as a bizarre take on the explosion of the >Bomb the day before. Since then I've come across an enigmatic poem by >Lorine Niedecker, written a few months later, and I now wonder >whether the identification of the Bomb as a specifically Jewish >artifact was not more general: > > New! > Reason explodes. Atomic split > shows one element > Jew > > Now hide > who can bombarded particles > of international > pride > > >6) It seems to me undeniable that it is very difficult to think of a major >American modernist who was not 1) black or Jewish AND 2) not racist or >anti-Semitic. Hatred is an absolutely intrinsic part of American modernism, >and as the heirs of that legacy we have to work it out. > > > all best-- > > Eliot _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:41:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: Re: Submission Crucible In-Reply-To: <4.0.2.19990713110142.008cb100@pop.columbia.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Brian Lennon wrote: " . . .implicitly links the rejection of work to the failure to subscribe, which I think is a mistake." I write: then let's be explicit. The number of subscribers necessary to keep an independent journal alive (even as supplementary to other resources, out-of-pocket most likely) does not nearly amount to the number of submitters necessary to keep an independent journal alive. Patrick F. Durgin At 12:46 PM 7/13/99 -0400, Brian Lennon wrote: >---two more cents' worth: > >When subscription invitations are included with rejection slips, they >inevitably end up being sent to submitters who have already subscribed to the >publication. For a submitter, this is just as impersonal and irritating as it >is for an editor to receive submissions from writers who clearly haven't >looked >at the magazine. Surely every member of a magazine's staff ought to know the >subscriber list by heart, right??? > >It also implicitly links the rejection of work to the failure to subscribe, >which I think is a mistake. In my two years at The Iowa Review, the best >work I >saw almost always came in cold--- often multiply submitted, from names I >didn't >know, and generally unconcerned with whether it was like anything we'd ever >published before. The result is that every issue changed our own idea of "what >we publish." > >Finding enough money to keep going is a huge problem, yes. But the problems >really start when you begin to feel guilty rejecting subscribers/supporters. > >Brian Lennon > >rebecca wolff wrote: > >>Mr. Waber proposes that rejection letters ought to be accompanied by a >>subscription form or some similar form of encouragement. I think this is a >>great idea, and in fact had meant to do just that when starting Fence, but >>was voted down by the rest of the Fence people on grounds of "adding insult >>to injury," "rubbing salt in the wound," etc. What do y'all think about >>this? Would you feel insulted, salted, annoyed, demeaned or otherwise >>antagonized by such an enclosure? >> >>I'd really like to know. Because we'd really like to have more subscribers. >> > > ___________________________________ k e n n i n g a newsletter of contemporary poetry _______________________________ http://www.avalon.net/~kenning ____________________________________ 418 Brown St. #10, Iowa City, IA 52245, USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:20:33 -500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Rosenberg Subject: wr-eye-tings is *DOWN* -- help needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Many of you on this list also subscribe to the wr-eye-tings list. That list is now completely off the air. Attempts to post produce bounces -- no such user. The list host, Carl Lynden Peters, reports there was a crash and he can no longer host the list. This is a real loss! Surely a server can be found to host this list. This is a call for ideas on how to get wr-eye-tings back on the air. Say it ain't so!! --- Jim Rosenberg http://www.well.com/user/jer/ CIS: 71515,124 WELL: jer Internet: jr@amanue.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 01:37:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Name That Quote In-Reply-To: <2E693F8E9FFDD2118CC80008C716505E463A28@mvex01.intuit.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >In "My Darling Clementine," Alan Mowbray (who's playing Thorndike, the >drunken Tragedian) says farewell to Francis Ford (who's playing Dad, the old >porter and Thorndike's drinking buddy and keeper) and recites some lines >that begin "Great souls" and then there's "allegiance" in the middle and it >ends with "burn." If anybody recognizes this quote, please let me know. >Pete Am I getting my memories mixed up? Wasnt "My Darling Clementine" about the gunfight at the OK Corral, with Henry Fonda? George Bowering. , fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:25:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Stefans Subject: Williams Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Folks, I have a lot of vague thoughts on this matter, being both of mixed ethnic origin and from Rutherford, NJ (as I never tire of telling people, WCW's son was my doctor when I was a lad, and in high school I would occasionally feign illness as a pretext for intelligence missions). I don't remember reading about his collaboration with a Chinese white supremecist, nor have I read the letters that speak of circumcision, which are no doubt pretty ridiculous and stupid, though it is worth remembering that, of all the "major modernists", Williams was (to me) the most seriously compromised by his lack of "sweetness and light" in Arnold's phrase -- i.e. despite his education in Switzerland (I think), at Horace Mann and in Pennsylvania, he was pretty lacking in the "humanities" but often, to his credit, seemed to go out of his way not to be cosmopolitan in the way of Pound. He at least felt bad enough about his suburban disposition to downplay his own role as an unacknowledged legislator -- i.e. he classed himself as a "dog among dogs." In any case, here are a few rambling questions regarding this subject (no answers): 1. if he never created a "positive" image of a civilization or culture that didn't include Jews, in the sense of a new Italy or Europe, could he be classed with the anti-semitism of Eliot or Pound, who wrote extensive tracts on the subject? 2. to say that Williams, like Pound, had "Jewish friends" hence he was not anti-Semitic is, yes, a bit weak (an older saw than the ginzu), but what were the value systems of these Jewish artists that Williams supported, values that he knew and recognized -- such as in Ginsberg's Howl -- and how did they run counter to a classically contoured, Euro-centric, authoritarian -- in any case "passeist" -- image that Pound and Eliot threw up against the miscegenation that would be the inevitable result of liberal capitalism? I somehow think that Zukofsky's leftism was modified for Pound by his choice, in the famous "Mantis" sestina for example, to utilize very old forms, or the "luminous detail", method in putting forth his image of civilization -- indeed, LZ seemed to believe that "civilization" had its glories that were worth preserving, in opposition to say the pessimism of much continental writing. (LZ was also a faultless highbrow.) But what could be similarly modified in the writing of Ginsberg -- didn't you more or less have to take the whole range of values or leave them? 3. could Williams, who took pains, I tend to think, to differentiate from a Puritan, self-policing sensibility -- hence his attraction to Ginsberg -- be put under the same microscope as a Pound or Eliot? That is, even if he had a better side to him that recognized anti-Semitism, especially in 1939, as something one does not want to humor as a political disposition, isn't it possible that he also rejecting this self-negotiation in favor of the "potency" of language -- after all, this is the guy that sprinkled exclamation points in poems about flowers. He kind of liked to curse; the Calibanic strain was quite strong with him (to echo Obi Wan). 4. on the note of racial slurs and things, I noted in my Philly Talk much to the chagrin of the audience that there was a way that my Asian friends and myself used to pick on each other in high school that was, for me, therapeutic, involving those very ethnic slurs that we were often only on the receiving end of. Which isn't to say we became racist, since we just used to pick on each other to sort of poke at the wound. A little later in life, this has grown, for me, into an identification with Korea and the Korean people in a sort of direct but failing way, such that I often, to myself, refer to Koreans as "my people" and Korea as "my country" or whatever, and so when I hear of a North Korean submarine washing up on the South Korean coast, I think, "what are my pathetic little people doing now"? I've only been there once, and of course I am not "Korean," but then again I excercise a certain freedom possible to "Americans" to be that other at least if it gives me comfort. Obviously this is just an interior play, something about exchangeable identities, and so forth. I also tend to have words like "gook" and "chink" floating around in my consciousness quite often, not in conversation but in private thought, often on the verge of finding their way into print, and sometimes they do get there -- why not? I don't tend to think of this so much as "self-hatred" or hatred for an other, so much as a play on identity, a way of erasure through signature, etc. So in contrast to the interpretation of Williams use of expletives as "ironic," it seems to me a different reading is possible. I.e. Williams had a pretty strong memory of his Jewish grandfather -- isn't pretty inevitable that we would have to read a relationship to this ancestor of his in any terminology that he uses that would seem to class him with the anti-Semites, the oppressive "other"? Whose voice is he using at this moment? 5. what about Williams' relationship to Catholics -- those "Catholic bells"? I don't know the history well enough, but Rutherford now is pretty heavy with Catholics (I was raised a Catholic), but I would guess that it was a phenomenon just in the making in Williams' time. I tend to think Williams -- who fetishized the word better than any "American" before him -- seemed to fetishize everything from, again, flowers to pototoes (to the "e" in potatoes) to too young girls to ethnic minorities (cf. Mackey's well-known essay on his exclamation-point riddled poem on jazz music). This seems to be where the Polish mothers meet the wheelbarrow, in a specific over-riding ontology -- what is there is not me, etc. As a last note, I tend to be wary of the granting of letters a confirmation of the potency of the panoptic gaze, which is to say that a consideration of the contexts of letters demonstrate that they hide as much as they seem to "reveal." I'll have to look those letters up, but considering that Williams map of a "civilization" is one that would have to be more often surmised than can be found elaborated linearly -- that he just wasn't a systematic thinker -- his idiotic banter on the sidelines with a guy like Pound -- whose system of thought was pretty ornate but tremendously corrupted by his hatred and prejudices, considering that the system was centered around ideas of beauty and wisdom, such that we would have to believe this hatred quite intense for it to survive, and hence his depression when he finally realized how intense this hatred was (it suggests to me Carlyle's discovering upon the death of his wife that he was quite a cad -- another Puritan sensibility run amock) -- could be taken in many ways, perhaps even as the sort of masculinist sparring that we know of that leads to an agreement in terms that are often less than agreeable. Pound overwhelmed him more often than not. I have no answers to the above questions in general, just thought to toss them out. I would suspect, I suppose, that Williams would behave differently if he were in Rome in 1939, or that his letters would be somewhat different, but since both his humanism and his anti-semitism were not really challenged by much more than what he read in the papers -- i.e his imperative to decide was not quite as strong as for a European -- then much of this is speculation. Anyway, I got to get back to work. Cheers, Brian ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:06:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Grant Jenkins Subject: E. Weinberger and snobs In-Reply-To: <3209251207@student.highland.cc.il.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In response to Weinberger's dismissal of Eliot: >2) "Some of his best friends [were Jews]..." Well, ok. So were Pound's. >(But not >Eliot-- the worst of the bunch because he was a snob.) In spite of the fact that Weinberger is fond of accusing people of prejudice (he does also with Ed Dorn and AIDS), it turns out that Eliot too had Jewish friends. According to a recent article by Ranen Omer, Eliot had a 40-year correspondence with the famous Jewish-American philosopher, Horace Kallen, coiner of the phrase "cultural pluralism." Found in Kallen's papers in the American Jewish Archives in Cincinnati, these letter are a major find. I suggest that anyone interested in Eliot or the question of the relation of anti-Semitism with Modernism read this article: Ranen Omer, "'It Is I Who Have Been Defending a Religion Called Judaism': The T.S. Eliot and Horace M. Kallen Correspondence." Texas Studies in Literature and Language 39.4 (1997): 321-356. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:21:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Stefans Subject: PS on Williams Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii As a sort of postscipt to my other comments on Williams, I would note that the quotes Eliot Weinberger draws from his stories, while being quite powerfully derogatory, could be seen to consistently fall within the realm of "speaking through the other," i.e. echoings of the local tongue and prejudices, and also within my idea of the fetishized ethnicity. My sense is that Williams didn't belong to any local community in Rutherford in any very easy way -- he felt quite alienated, as we all know -- so a lot of what sounds like "plain speech" in Williams can often be seen as not his own plain speech, until perhaps the Asphodel poem where it seems all him. But that's because we know to whom he is speaking -- i.e. Flossy. But when he writes "He was one of those Jews..." sounding like he's addressing someone, but who is this? (If one imagines that he thought his first or only readers for such stories would be his sophisticated New York literati friends, many of whom were Jewish, how do these lines resonate with them?) In any case, what would be interesting would be if someone could find the kind of invective that one finds in Pound and Cummings and others, or the kind of detached "objective" tone in Eliot's writing on Christian culture, in Williams -- i.e. something more discursive and outside the realm of pure imagism, something with a sure sense of audience and purpose -- since such a thing would point to a more synthesized world-view in Williams that presently we can't see. I've never quite figured out whom Williams was addressing in Spring and All, for example -- much of which, as I'd written to a friend earlier, would sound like the most vicious "flame" on the internet -- and I think this vagueness about his audience contributes to the choppy, seemingly incomplete nature of his "career," i.e. the ups and downs of his work. Also, can I suggest Marianne Moore as a modernist not motivated by hate or exhibited anti-semitism? I'll probably find this wasn't the case. Brian ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:54:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Schwartz Subject: Re: COPE'S OPPEN--- In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, Chris Stroffolino wrote: > Congrats on Stephen Cope for his work on Oppen recently published > in THE GERM. It is a quite interesting piece. I don't agree with > ALL of it, but it is fascinating and worth reading (especially > for those of us who've never been especially great fans of his > poetry)..... How does one get a copy of THE GERM? (from someone who IS a great fan of OPpen's poetry) --Judy S. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:24:12 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Nagler Subject: Reminder: The Barn (a play), tonite and tomorrow MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To anyone who will be in the SF bay area tonight July 15th or tomorrow night, the 16th my play/performance piece 'The Barn' is being performed at 8:00 pm at 379 40th St. (between telegraph and Broadway) in north Oakland Poetics List People get in free. Running time is about one and a half hours. chris nagler "The Barn is a play about a family of voices. The voice, and the family, as shelters and constraints. Domestic tasks as the physical equivalents of fantasies -- the impossibility of containing either within pastoral romance, but the constant desire for this. It is a play about the possibility of being far away from the landscape, and the voice." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:35:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: A H Bramhall Subject: When The Invitation Arrives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the poets in the minefields of Pennsylvania labour day and night to produce the fairest examples of their craft. in California the entire population is in love, dreamy love, love without bounds or off track betting. in the wee country of Liechtenstein comrades walk straight to the shoe factory every morning to receive their free sneakers. in Rwanda the lions share their bread with the dead. and while this joy more than subsists, the moon looks down. the moon has pretensions to understanding, just like us, for the moon rolls thru the heavens tied to earth's mesmerizing gaze. most people don't care about that. in every inch of the land once known as Russia people open boxes with hope in their hearts. in Japan, the brilliant bullet trains add zest to understanding: such suddenness, such noise! and on it goes. a puddle called Walden Pond extrudes facts daily, and when people drown there, they drown deeply. no mention yet has been made of the delightful fund of lyres that the Grecian model government stockpiles for times of need, an agreeable figurative uncommon hug for one and all. France has learned to emulate the finest mountains of Peru, and even Parisians (formerly, a pox on them) are newly cheerful and inclined to greet Incas without ponderous escapade. Honduras cannot hide its cheeky aurora, Canada has half a mind to shout with glee, Tonga and Madagascar have learned frantic hand-holding tricks, Poland grips the ball with fiery new surety, everything Chinese adds the lift of oneness, trees sprout in the rocks of Thailand, chirping Floridians remove their masks, and everyone, everywhere, dances this glow. all this, friends, can be shipped right to your doormat. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:42:07 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hamish John Dewe Subject: Re: Under New Management: NZ's new writing In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990714213620.007e6c50@pop3.internet.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT While I am always excited to see ABDOTWW, there is another publisher of experimental poetry in New Zealand, even in Auckland too: Salt. Their focus seems to be online publishing at the moment, while there is also a print version. Catch Salt at http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~mbellard/index.htm which is currently under construction. Hamish Dewe (_ex_-ed. Salt) > Some of you may be aware that Alan Loney, a fine poet and editor, has > recently relinquished the editing of A BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF THE WHOLE > WORLD, a magazine of experiemental writing in New Zealand. > > It continues as the only magazine in NZ supporting and supported by > experimental writers. The June issue now available, ABDOTWW/12, comprises > a reissue of Leigh Davis's long poem book, WILLY'S GAZETTE, which first > appeared in 1983. The magazine is proud to be involved in the reissue of > this landmark book. > > John Geraets > Editor--ABDOTWW > geraets@internet.co.nz > 11-20 Poynton Tce > Auckland 1001, NZ. > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:36:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: A H Bramhall Subject: An Expert On New Jersey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit found a rhythm in which to dance. great simplicities like that, a way to make racism or whatever work for you, puts gumption in your step. the whole plan stands before you. racism or any whatsis can be impelled into distinctions of power, like choosing to feed a poet. what could be less deleterious than the knowledge that your vices sing for you. any gloom surrounding you turns to profit. that's what expertise is for, floating into space or spaces, making the gruel taste good. sometimes dark, sometimes informed by all you know. cloud time babies. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:36:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Ryan Knighton, Editor" Subject: Re: Submission Crucible In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I suppose there's another question hiding in Rebecca's (not to put questions in your mouth): I'm also curious what others think about submitting to journals/magazines you don't subscribe to. I would say more than 95% of what we receive at TCR is from people not on our subscription lists (I'm sure this is a common story). __________________________________________ Date sent: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:59:15 -0500 Send reply to: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Weiser Subject: Re: Submission Crucible To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > In response to Rebecca Wolf's question- > > > > > I personally wouldn't feel insulted if you enclosed a subscription form > with a rejection notice because if I am submitting to your magazine it > means I like it and am probably wanting to subscribe at some point. > > Karen Ryan Knighton, Editor The Capilano Review 2055 Purcell Way N. Vancouver V7J 3H5 PH: (604) 984-1712 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 22:33:23 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lynn Miller Subject: Re: Help with Outreach MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On the subject of BLUESTOCKING Books, a few words as to the contribution that might be made to the art/political culture of lower Manhattan by the books that need to be written there as well as sold, the people writing them and selling them, and the classes that must be organized. As for the books on the shelves, one might search among them for titles having also to deal on a day-to-day TimePoint with such urgent issues of the moment as the planned August 21 March of the Klan in Cleveland (see 7/13 Plain Dealer), on-going defense of Abortion Clinics, lesbian and gay rights to Privacy of the Bedroom and freedom from Surveillance, in addition to a good many rare volumes by such leaders of the Russian and Cuban revolutions as Inessa Armand and the Argentinian photographer, Tania. This is only a fragmentary list, but one which I think points to why support of what a BlueStocking Bookstore could do and the importance it could have in a major city like New York. Many of the titles made available at this kind of store are simply not available in commercial and academic venues, and given the generally accepted perception that independent bookstores promoting Free Thinking are being pressed out of existence, it is also important to encourage writers to commit themselves to making available to as large a public as possible all popular philosophies and programs for social action. Ideas are worthless unless they're made real. BlueStocking Books has the potential to become a social center, like the New Workers' Center in Juarez, staffed by volunteers committed to getting out the news concerning the widening resistance to any and every effort to take away such basic democratic rights as Freedom of Assembly, Freedom of Speech, and Freedom of Thought and Expression. Please give your every consideration to building a space big enough to meet the needs of BlueStocking Books. THERE MUST BE PROFOUND CHANGE. --Tishie Ann "A sad little girl mastered kick ball Roller Derby Style" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 17:56:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Williams Tombstone Sweepers etc. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This is very disturbing. While I certainly agree with Michael Magee's plea for an examination of Williams' antisemitism as a complex phenomenon, I don't think that part of that complexity is explained by Stephen's suggestion that Williams was in some way reacting to or against his partly-Jewish ancestry. Williams, as far as I can gather from the writing, never thought of himself as Jewish or part-Jewish, never thought that culture was genetic. His antisemitism was entirely of the class-determined, unconscious, or at least unexamined, variety (I doubt he thought it was an issue, at least before 1940, although I'm sure he behaved appropriately with his Jewish friends), the variety of antisemitism that nowadays in the US is most likely to cause pain. Although it doesn't hurt to remember that the more violent kind exists here as well. Maria, I can't tell from your post if you're aware that the reaction you site to Lehrer's song was motivated by fear. Social ostracism, and a lot worse, on these liberated shores, is well within the memories of Jews of my generation and yours. I would suggest that this is a subject on which to tread lightly. It never occurred to me that Kent was disowning Williams, whom I too revere. But the wounds are very fresh. At 11:25 AM 7/14/99 -0600, you wrote: >nice post, stephen. i remember when the very Jewish Tom Lehrer's song >"National Brotherhood Week" played on the air, and the line "Everybody >hates the Jews," was roundly criticized by Jews and non-Jews for being >anti-Semitic, while i think, in fact, every Jew also recognized its ironic >"so what else is new" shrug --but didn't necessarily want that sense of >irony aired to the non-Jewish world for fear that it would be read straight >and thus possibly fan flames of anti-Semitism. It's like the risk a Jew >takes when telling a "Jewish joke" (*not* an anti-Semitic joke) in front of >non-Jewish friends who may then go tell it in a context (for instance, in a >setting where there are no Jews) that makes it far more volatile. > >At 12:14 PM -0400 7/13/99, Stephen Vincent wrote: >>Kent Johnson's righteousness - or at least that tone - about nailing WCW to >>an anti-Semitic cross seems to me to indulge an easy dichotomy. I am not sure >>if Johnson's trying to throw the Doctor out with the bath water, but I always >>get uncomfortable when anyone (myself included) goes to the Holy ground with >>an implicit claim of purity - what ever might be the issue. I would go as far >>to say that my opposition to anti-Semitic, anti-Palestinian, racist, >>homophobic or any other abusive behavior involves a personal acknowledgment >>and desire to exorcise some part of my person that has inherited or learned >>those behaviors (via ample examples whether in the language or acted out on >>the street). I suspect there will always be that tension and fight in the >>culture, at least my experience of it. >> But going back to Williams, is it possible to view his double-dipping >>into offensive, particularly anti-Semitic language in the context of his half >>or part Jewishness? In fact, in the same breath, has any critic delved into >>this internal pluralism as one of the ways of looking into at least part of >>William's interest and willingness to take on American culture as a >>pluralistic condition. (Whereas Eliot and Pound, in the face of the European >>migrations of the turn of the century, clearly took the xenophobic route out >>of the country.) WCW is one of a number of great writers in this century who >>are half or part Jewish. In the context of the evidence and questions >>surrounding his anti-Semitic quotes, I think of Proust who, on one hand, was >>one of the public leaders in the fight to free Dreyfus and, on the other, >>Remembrance of Things Past has a strong share of anti-Semitic caricatures. I >>suspect these internal battles are part of the condition of being a blend of >>different cultures. >> >>Not being Jewish, I, nevertheless, do have a sense that the issues raised by >>those who are half-Jewish (in relationship to Jews and non-Jews) is bubbling >>as something not spoken or addressed, perhaps ignored by some as a painful >>taboo, or somehow an embarrassment to acknowledge. As to why, I cannot speak. >>These are issues, of course, that can be raised about the work of any writer >>who comes out of a biological blend of any historically oppositional groups >>(and perhaps classes). I suspect for many who carry such blends, it's both a >>gift and a curse - leading to these curious quandaries of point of view that >>come up in Williams and others. These blends and the particular consequent >>larger social overview, however, clearly lead to some great writing. >> >>Cheers, >>Stephen Vincent >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:16:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: PS on Williams In-Reply-To: <199907151723.NAA29351@interlock.randomhouse.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" When I was a little kid we used to vacation at a cheap resort in the Poconos, which were a lot more remote before the construction of I-80 than it is now. I became close friends with the owner's son who had a black German Shepherd names Nigger. I don't think he'd ever met a Black person, but I don't doubt for a minute that he and his family were racists. But maybe when he called his dog he was feigning a persona. At 01:21 PM 7/15/99 -0400, you wrote: >As a sort of postscipt to my other comments on Williams, I would note that >the quotes Eliot Weinberger draws from his stories, while being quite >powerfully derogatory, could be seen to consistently fall within the realm >of "speaking through the other," i.e. echoings of the local tongue and >prejudices, and also within my idea of the fetishized ethnicity. My sense >is that Williams didn't belong to any local community in Rutherford in any >very easy way -- he felt quite alienated, as we all know -- so a lot of >what sounds like "plain speech" in Williams can often be seen as not his >own plain speech, until perhaps the Asphodel poem where it seems all him. >But that's because we know to whom he is speaking -- i.e. Flossy. But when >he writes "He was one of those Jews..." sounding like he's addressing >someone, but who is this? (If one imagines that he thought his first or >only readers for such stories would be his sophisticated New York literati >friends, many of whom were Jewish, how do these lines resonate with them?) > >In any case, what would be interesting would be if someone could find the >kind of invective that one finds in Pound and Cummings and others, or the >kind of detached "objective" tone in Eliot's writing on Christian culture, >in Williams -- i.e. something more discursive and outside the realm of pure >imagism, something with a sure sense of audience and purpose -- since such >a thing would point to a more synthesized world-view in Williams that >presently we can't see. I've never quite figured out whom Williams was >addressing in Spring and All, for example -- much of which, as I'd written >to a friend earlier, would sound like the most vicious "flame" on the >internet -- and I think this vagueness about his audience contributes to >the choppy, seemingly incomplete nature of his "career," i.e. the ups and >downs of his work. > >Also, can I suggest Marianne Moore as a modernist not motivated by hate or >exhibited anti-semitism? I'll probably find this wasn't the case. > >Brian > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 21:27:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: rebecca wolff Subject: fence new issue site Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Fence finally got our current issue, #3, up on our website: http://www.fencemag.com Please visit. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:37:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Julie Johnson Subject: Duration: A Journal of International Poetry; Issue One now online MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Duration Press is pleased to announce that the first issue of its new online journal is now online. Featuring work by: Elizabeth Treadwell, Kristin Prevallet, Tchicaya U Tam'Si, Patrick Durgin, Leonard Brink, Gary Sullivan, Beth Anderson, Sheila Murphy, Hoa Nguyen, Kevin Magee, Spencer Selby, Jesse Glass, Jeffrey Jullich, & Rodrigo Garcia Lopes The issue can be found at: http://members.xoom.com/Duration/durationmag.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:46:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Pound and the Nobel Prize Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Someone suggested that those who had denied Pound the Nobel Prize had failed to separate the work from the man. They were in fact remembering some of the more disreputable works. When Kurt Waldheim, after his UN career, was discovered to have committed war crimes there were some who objected to his being elected president of Austria--his great post-war service were apparently enough to excuse his earlier behavior as far as the Austrian electorate was concerned, but the critics felt that some things are unforgiveable and that to honor the perpetrator is to diminish the apparent seriousness of what had been done. Pound wasn't a war criminal, merely a fellow-traveller of war criminals, but that's bad enough. To deny him the prize was not so much a judgment on the Cantos as a decision not to be seen as forgiving the unforgiveable in the context of a Europe where passions like those who had expressed during the war were and are very much alive. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 21:50:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Schwartz Subject: Re: COPE'S OPPEN--- In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 15 Jul 1999, Kimmelman, Burt wrote: > Judy, > > Forgive my obtuseness, but I don't get this: "How does one get a copy of THE > GERM? (from someone who IS a great fan > of > OPpen's poetry) --Judy S." > > I guess if I did I'd not have had to ask. Burt: Not sure what you're asking. I was responding to the message printed below, cause I don't know that journal. The part about Oppen was also in response to the message below. If it makes no sense, it may be that my brain is fried from completing a dissertation (on Oppen). Anyway, I would like to know how to get a copy of the article/journal. --Judy > > -----Original Message----- > From: Judy Schwartz > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: 7/14/99 3:54 PM > Subject: Re: COPE'S OPPEN--- > > On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, Chris Stroffolino wrote: > > > Congrats on Stephen Cope for his work on Oppen recently > published > > in THE GERM. It is a quite interesting piece. I don't agree with > > ALL of it, but it is fascinating and worth reading (especially > > for those of us who've never been especially great fans of his > > poetry)..... > > How does one get a copy of THE GERM? (from someone who IS a great fan > of > OPpen's poetry) --Judy S. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 23:42:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: (for ANC and NP) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - the laws, somebody decided something they heard it passed down, they read it in a text they interfered with the law of gravitation they said, suspend different people moved apart from different people until the same went with the same the same modified the laws to their liking or they forgot them they'd heard there was more than one path through the forest they understood what they heard we're the people of understanding, they said, one to another there were interpretations of gravitation but no one understood that the world was everywhere in the world if they'd understood that, the troubles wouldn't have started as it was someone asked what the laws had to do with anything she said it properly, spoke clearly, no one had trouble with it she lost her head over it, it couldn't have been otherwise the head was the seat of the problems things that sounded like words came forth i think they continued for a long while later the laws, somebody decided something _________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:37:07 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: pete spence Subject: Re: H W Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed the last notification of Hanna's WRITTEN IN/THE ZERO ONE had about 30 people interested e-mailing me for information on how to get!! seems in the end only 2 could overcome the information and actually order!! there are still 60 copies for sale!! also i have ready Hannah's COUNTRY GIRL the second of four early journals and written in 1971 you can now order this book from LOOK!! POETRY!! by sending $5 U.S. cash to: pete spence 40 bramwell st ocean grove 3226 victoria australia airmail your letter otherwise it will take about three months!! i will airmail you back the book. if you want both WRITTEN IN/THE ZERO ONE and COUNTRY GIRL then $10 U.S cash will see it done thanks pete spence ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 03:10:11 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Purity Comments: To: kjohnson@highland.cc.il.us, junction@earthlink.net, hobnzngr@leland.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 7/15/99 4:25:15 PM, kjohnson@HIGHLAND.CC.IL.US writes: << I _love_ Williams. If he was more of a prick, more humanly sinful than the canon-makers have let on, that does nothing to diminish the greatness of his poetry. And in some ways the darkness makes the greatness all the more fascinating! The record is the record (which, yes, is open to differing interpretations), and I think it's best to talk about it without the innuendo you interject above. Kent >> Dear Kent: My apologies if I stacked the deck. Both I and Mark Weiss (who=20 also took exception to my post) looked in vain to see if there was an=20 original post which led to your motivation to focus on WCW's anti-Semitism.=20 Left with only the post with the anti-Semitic focus, your tone sounded like=20 you were primarily interested in clearing Williams out of the house! Your=20 most recent post indicates, to the contrary, that these revelations about=20 Williams are much more conflicting and clearly at odds with your love for th= e=20 work. The nastiness in my initial reaction to your post is no doubt partly a=20 "sacred cow" response. Rule of thumb in this house, when the Muse is in doub= t=20 read "Desert Music," or parts of Patterson among other poems. Unlike Eliot o= r=20 Pound, who I read as teachers, Williams remains a healer, plus, in addition=20 to Reznikoff, it is work that originally gave me permission to acknowledge=20 and take consciousness in the City (infinite, local and various), one that=20 was quite different from the Mandarin one in Pound and Eliot. (The specific=20 impact of Jewish writers on poetry of the twentieth century City is a whole=20 different but probably related thread, including Williams' influence.)=20 I believe the anti-Semitic acknowledgment in Williams work is vital to both=20 engage and explore, particularly where and in the way it shifts one's=20 experience and interpretation of the actual poems and stories. (The List=20 responses have begun to do that.) I suspect for any conscious person, an act=20 of reading is always a double-dance, partnering with what one loves while=20 kicking out what disgusts. In the context of Modernism - at least how we as=20 contemporaries relate to it =96 it would be curious to know more about the w= ays=20 in which Zukofsky, Reznikoff, Oppen and Rakosi dealt with Eliot, Pound and=20 Williams' in terms of a work's implicit or explicit anti-Semitism. Did these=20 Objectivists kick privately or publicly, and, if publicly, at what risk, wha= t=20 cost? And have things changed?=20 Cheers, Stephen Vincent ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 20:00:08 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Tranter Subject: Not all salt is NaCl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In response to a recent posting from New Zealand about a magazine called "Salt", I'd like to pass on to the Buffalo List the following: "John Kinsella, editor of the Australian [literary magazine] "Salt", would like to state clearly that the journal he has edited since 1990 has no connection with the newish NZ journal of the same name." John Tranter, editor, Jacket magazine ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:04:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: PS on Williams In-Reply-To: <199907151723.NAA29351@interlock.randomhouse.com> from "Brian Stefans" at Jul 15, 99 01:21:59 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit According to Brian Stefans: > > Also, can I suggest Marianne Moore as a modernist not motivated by hate or > exhibited anti-semitism? I'll probably find this wasn't the case. > > Brian > Brian, yes, - there may be evidence of anti-semitism by Moore out there, but I've certainly never come across it, and have always taken heart in these lines which conclude here wonderful homage to miscegenated culture, "The Labors of Hercules" ("To popularize the mule" is the objective stated at it's beginning): "that the Negro is not brutal, that the Jew is not greedy, that the Oriental is not immoral, that the German is not a hun." If I'm not mistaken, this was written in the early '20's (was she regretting that final line ca. 1940? - probably not: the point seems to be as much about adjectives standing in for complex wholes as it is about objecting to specific cases of racism, although for her these two things would finally have been inseparable.) Anyway, thought I'd mention it. Thanks for your fine posts on this subject! -m. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:19:17 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Williams Tombstone Sweepers etc. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990715175638.01127100@mail.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 5:56 PM -0700 7/15/99, Mark Weiss wrote: >This is very disturbing. While I certainly agree with Michael Magee's plea >for an examination of Williams' antisemitism as a complex phenomenon, I >don't think that part of that complexity is explained by Stephen's >suggestion that Williams was in some way reacting to or against his >partly-Jewish ancestry. Williams, as far as I can gather from the writing, >never thought of himself as Jewish or part-Jewish, never thought that >culture was genetic. His antisemitism was entirely of the class-determined, >unconscious, or at least unexamined, variety (I doubt he thought it was an >issue, at least before 1940, although I'm sure he behaved appropriately >with his Jewish friends), the variety of antisemitism that nowadays in the >US is most likely to cause pain. Although it doesn't hurt to remember that >the more violent kind exists here as well. >Maria, I can't tell from your post if you're aware that the reaction you >site to Lehrer's song was motivated by fear. Social ostracism, and a lot >worse, on these liberated shores, is well within the memories of Jews of my >generation and yours. >I would suggest that this is a subject on which to tread lightly. It never >occurred to me that Kent was disowning Williams, whom I too revere. But the >wounds are very fresh. > i agree, this is a volatile thread and one that i care a lot about and want to participate in, not because of W C Williams so much (though these quotes from Kent and Weinberger are new to me, disturbing, and interesting) but because i find Jewishness, so-called "Jewish self-hatred," and anti-Semitism to be compelling and complex subjects. in my post i explicitly said "for fear that it would be read straight and thus possibly fan flames of anti-Semitism." so yes, i do see fear as a motivating force, but perhaps not as strongly as you do. perhaps i shd rethink that relative lightness. On the other hand, I think Jews should be less fearful of debating Jewish complexity in public --to be silent on these complexities is, i believe, to capitulate to the mainstream culture's desire to keep Jewish discussion of Jewishness at the margins. Sometimes when I've posted something about being Jewish on this list, I've gotten back-channel acknowledgements and thanks from other Jews for my post --but not public posts. While I certainly respect each Jewish person's right to determine the degree to which he or she wants to protect him or herself around such issues, and while i appreciate the delicacy and beauty of an "invisible community" forming under or adjacent to the mainstream lines of Poetics, i welcome the publicness with which this thread is being conducted. tho i may change my mind at any moment. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 06:56:38 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Ellis Subject: Manifest Destiny Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed The "field" of racism re: Williams, Pound & Eliot extends beyond the bounds of a specific anti-semitism; ancient cultic law is not based on tolerance. Not to be overly "Hebraic" about it, the fact remains that the murder of former Israeli Prime Minister Rabin had, in some interpretations, rabbinical sanction. Semitic law in general gives sanction for murder, if evidence exists - and suspicion is often thought sufficient evidence - that a person presents a threat to the security of the clan at large. We still operate under a similar system, as a glance at who's who on any Death Row will tell you. Enemies of the State. America wasn't founded to protect the interests of any sense of the common man or to the common good; it was founded to protect the interests of a wealthy group of molasses bootleggers operating out of the Carribbean. Interesting in this light to recall that Washington initially considered making Hebrew the national language, probably having to do with aligning America with the moral authority represented by the rise of "Israel" at the end of the world in the Book of Revelations. Nineteenth century Manifest Destiny is a pure product of nothing but. In fact, the genetic/hereditary science of Eugenics was a 19th century American invention, and the Sterilization Laws passed in 1907 by the State of Indiana "to prevent procreation of confirmed criminals, idiots, imbeciles and rapists" was the prototype for Nazi-funded scientific missions to find "reason" for persecution of Jews. WCW, Pound, Eliot & Co. - "us all" too - are the inheritors of this tradition. Given this, the accusation that these guys were "anti-semitic" seems trite; the more essential question lies in the extent to which they - or any of us - gave (or in our case, continue to give) sanction to state-infected suppositions toward "liberation." Calling WCW anti-semitic merely sweetens the lie that we in fact DO have the moral authority to "call him down," but what phantom will rise from the process of so doing? Or more specifically, though maybe slightly off the mark, what are the relations between poetic form, natural proportion and human law, for example, that permit the existence of a sort of "screen" or "grate" through which we may have intimations of the smell of death, but no actual access to the causatively related "killing floor"? When the feeling of "threat" is multiplied into an analogical "house of mirrors" (and perhaps of cards), how do we identify it, ie., how do we get into the basement over which the killing floor is laid? S E >From: KENT JOHNSON >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Purity >Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:08:33 -0500 > >May I indulge in some self-defense, please? > >Stephen Vincent wrote: > > >Kent Johnson's righteousness - or at least that tone - about nailing > >WCW to an anti-Semitic cross seems to me to indulge an easy > >dichotomy. I am not sure if Johnson's trying to throw the Doctor out > >with the bath water, but I always get uncomfortable when anyone > >(myself included) goes to the Holy ground with an implicit claim of > >purity - what ever might be the issue. I would go as far > >to say that my opposition to anti-Semitic, anti-Palestinian, racist, > >homophobic or any other abusive behavior involves a personal > >acknowledgment and desire to exorcise some part of my person that > >has inherited or learned those behaviors > >Stephen, if I point out, as I did, that there is textual evidence of >a strong anti-Semitic strain in Williams, why is this >"self-righteousness"? I responded to what I felt was a significant >blind spot in Billy Little's typically-provocative post, and did so >in a reasonable way, I thought. Then there were four indignant >responses, all of which strongly denied the applicability of the >term, a couple of these calling my post "ridiculous." So I responded, >pointing people to some specific evidence, and now am accused by you >of being self-righteous, by implication blind to my own likely >racism, and of trying to throw WCW "out with the bathwater." > >I _love_ Williams. If he was more of a prick, more humanly sinful >than the canon-makers have let on, that does nothing to diminish the >greatness of his poetry. And in some ways the darkness makes >the greatness all the more fascinating! The record is the record >(which, yes, is open to differing interpretations), and I think it's >best to talk about it without the innuendo you interject above. >Kent _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:04:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jamie Perez Subject: submissions w/rejections MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit why not just print your rejection slips on paper that has submission info on the back... they will most likely notice it due to the way paper is folded into an envelope if they are already subscribers they will notice how clever your stationary is... if they aren't they will think it's clever and may start subscribing or may not either way, no extra paper wasted and no insult is intended #2: will work best if you print the info in a different color (see the red or green ink copier at Kinko's), to differentiate from the black ink of the letter #3: would look great if the info took up about 1/3 a sheet of paper (or less) and was printed multiple times down the back of the paper, with the top and bottom "copy" being cut off by the page: as if the entire sheet of paper was machine produced in that form #4: this could even be done with a custom handstamp for the record: I spend about 100 times the amount on newsstand copies vs. subscriptions, but am trying to even out the trend a little jamie.p ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:04:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dana Lustig Subject: Re: Williams Tombstone Sweepers etc. Comments: To: damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I think your point about the *Jewish joke* is accurate. To laugh at one's stereotypes tends to render it harmless, but from others it has the threat of danger. Not to prolong this much further, but I think that to judge WCW based upon the mores and political correctness of our time takes him out of the context of his time. I agree with m. magee "that the question, "Why do anti-semitic trusims pepper Williams's writings?" is not so easily answered; but if answered complexly might be pretty valuable" Why do people affiliate themselves with specific race/religious/class groupings, but also retain certain inbred prejudices against them? I find WCW's position interesting indeed, but perhaps that's because I'm half Puerto-Rican, brought up with a Jewish stepfather and family. I will say that based upon my experience with a multicultural, multiracial, multi-religious family is, even those who consider themselves "liberal" for their time still retain certain prejudices. My (Jewish) grandparents, who were highly educated, well-respected, well-read, well-traveled, and fairly "liberal" for their time, still had prejudices. They were never overt about their opinions, and I wouldn't classify them as ever having been "racist", but I think that they, like many others of their time (brought up just prior to the women's movement, the civil rights movement, racial pride, etc) unconsciously grasped onto the usual opinions, even as they didn't "in principle" believe in it. We expect everyone we admire in history to have the sensitivity we have "now" towards complex issues. I think it's relative to one's place in time. Picasso was misogynistic towards women, but that doesn't diminish his massive contribution to 20th century art. In fact, his misogny produced some of his most effective works, because the subjects of his work were some of the women he put through the wringer. In that way we should view WCW's work--how did his dual sympathies/prejudices against race/religion figure in giving his work the brilliance it has? Seems a much more productive vein to approach him than an attack on the standards of his time and his own human frailities. Yours, d (martinez) lustig ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Williams Tombstone Sweepers etc. Author: damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU at Internet-USA Date: 7/15/99 7:24 PM nice post, stephen. i remember when the very Jewish Tom Lehrer's song "National Brotherhood Week" played on the air, and the line "Everybody hates the Jews," was roundly criticized by Jews and non-Jews for being anti-Semitic, while i think, in fact, every Jew also recognized its ironic "so what else is new" shrug --but didn't necessarily want that sense of irony aired to the non-Jewish world for fear that it would be read straight and thus possibly fan flames of anti-Semitism. It's like the risk a Jew takes when telling a "Jewish joke" (*not* an anti-Semitic joke) in front of non-Jewish friends who may then go tell it in a context (for instance, in a setting where there are no Jews) that makes it far more volatile. At 12:14 PM -0400 7/13/99, Stephen Vincent wrote: >Kent Johnson's righteousness - or at least that tone - about nailing WCW to >an anti-Semitic cross seems to me to indulge an easy dichotomy. I am not sure >if Johnson's trying to throw the Doctor out with the bath water, but I always >get uncomfortable when anyone (myself included) goes to the Holy ground with >an implicit claim of purity - what ever might be the issue. I would go as far >to say that my opposition to anti-Semitic, anti-Palestinian, racist, >homophobic or any other abusive behavior involves a personal acknowledgment >and desire to exorcise some part of my person that has inherited or learned >those behaviors (via ample examples whether in the language or acted out on >the street). I suspect there will always be that tension and fight in the >culture, at least my experience of it. > But going back to Williams, is it possible to view his double-dipping >into offensive, particularly anti-Semitic language in the context of his half >or part Jewishness? In fact, in the same breath, has any critic delved into >this internal pluralism as one of the ways of looking into at least part of >William's interest and willingness to take on American culture as a >pluralistic condition. (Whereas Eliot and Pound, in the face of the European >migrations of the turn of the century, clearly took the xenophobic route out >of the country.) WCW is one of a number of great writers in this century who >are half or part Jewish. In the context of the evidence and questions >surrounding his anti-Semitic quotes, I think of Proust who, on one hand, was >one of the public leaders in the fight to free Dreyfus and, on the other, >Remembrance of Things Past has a strong share of anti-Semitic caricatures. I >suspect these internal battles are part of the condition of being a blend of >different cultures. > >Not being Jewish, I, nevertheless, do have a sense that the issues raised by >those who are half-Jewish (in relationship to Jews and non-Jews) is bubbling >as something not spoken or addressed, perhaps ignored by some as a painful >taboo, or somehow an embarrassment to acknowledge. As to why, I cannot speak. >These are issues, of course, that can be raised about the work of any writer >who comes out of a biological blend of any historically oppositional groups >(and perhaps classes). I suspect for many who carry such blends, it's both a >gift and a curse - leading to these curious quandaries of point of view that >come up in Williams and others. These blends and the particular consequent >larger social overview, however, clearly lead to some great writing. > >Cheers, >Stephen Vincent > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:09:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Patrick @Silverplume" Subject: Re: Name That Quote MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Yes, yes, it is, George. But Pete is referring to the great scene in the bar where a drunken Mowbray haltingly recites Hamlet's soliloquy, falters, then gives it over to Doc Holliday to finish. I don't know the source of the quote Pete's referring to and it's driving me nuts since my VCR is broken and I can't pop in my copy of "Clem" to check it out. This film also contains this classic exchange, set in the same bar: Fonda/Earp: "Mac, you ever been in love?" Mac: "Nope, I've been a bartender all my life." Patrick Pritchett > -----Original Message----- > From: George Bowering [SMTP:bowering@SFU.CA] > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 2:38 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Name That Quote > > >In "My Darling Clementine," Alan Mowbray (who's playing Thorndike, the > >drunken Tragedian) says farewell to Francis Ford (who's playing Dad, the > old > >porter and Thorndike's drinking buddy and keeper) and recites some lines > >that begin "Great souls" and then there's "allegiance" in the middle and > it > >ends with "burn." If anybody recognizes this quote, please let me know. > >Pete > > Am I getting my memories mixed up? Wasnt "My Darling Clementine" about the > gunfight at the OK Corral, with Henry Fonda? > > > > > George Bowering. > , > > > fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:20:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "W. Freind" Subject: Subscriptions, submissions, etc. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Just a quick comment on the editors who have been complaining (legitimately) about people who submit but don't subscribe. At least a few of you haven't posted to UB poetics, subsub, etc. when you have new issues coming out. Why not send a brief post with a list of contributors and reviews? Bill Freind ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:20:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: hassen Subject: Million Artist March MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit fellow listees~ perhaps some might be interested in the following info. hassen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Million Artist March On The Avenue Of The Arts in Philadelphia on Saturday, July 17, 1999 The Million Artist March is organized by MAMOTAA, an arts advocacy group under the non-profit umbrella of Jobs With Peace. MAMOTAA's goal is to send one million signatures to Congress requesting that art programs be reinstated in the public school curriculum. We also ask that art teachers and artists be hired to teach these programs. MAMOTAA's work will not end in July 17, 1999. We will continue to be an arts advocacy organization, job bank and information center until Washington addresses this issue. The day will begin at 11am with a dance, music and color-filled march from the Avenue of the Arts to the Benjamin Franklin Parkway where seven stages will provide music performance and spoken word events. The Parkway will be lined with tables to sell original art work. If you're an artist, art student, parent or concerned citizen, come to Philadelphia to show your support. CELEBRATE for a cause. Please sign the petition and forward to friends, family and e-buddies. Call and ask for details about sponsoring and art ride to Philadelphia for the march. For more information, contact: MAMOTAA/Jobs With Peace 1809 Spring Garden Street Philadelphia, PA 19130 Call: (215) 557-7226 Fax: (215) 557-8053 Toll Free: (877) 456-2863 MAMOTAA Petition Million Artist March On The Avenue of the Arts http://www.millionartistmarch.com/elements/artcontents.html <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:14:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: peter neufeld Subject: Email address request MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Would someone please backchannel Norma Cole's email address to me? I can't find it. Thanks, Peter. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:29:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: Pound and the Nobel Prize MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pound was up for the Bollingen prize, not the Nobel. -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Friday, July 16, 1999 1:22 PM Subject: Pound and the Nobel Prize >Someone suggested that those who had denied Pound the Nobel Prize had >failed to separate the work from the man. They were in fact remembering >some of the more disreputable works. >When Kurt Waldheim, after his UN career, was discovered to have committed >war crimes there were some who objected to his being elected president of >Austria--his great post-war service were apparently enough to excuse his >earlier behavior as far as the Austrian electorate was concerned, but the >critics felt that some things are unforgiveable and that to honor the >perpetrator is to diminish the apparent seriousness of what had been done. >Pound wasn't a war criminal, merely a fellow-traveller of war criminals, >but that's bad enough. To deny him the prize was not so much a judgment on >the Cantos as a decision not to be seen as forgiving the unforgiveable in >the context of a Europe where passions like those who had expressed during >the war were and are very much alive. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:51:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: Pound and the Nobel Prize MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I stand corrected. Apparently Pound was sad not to be honored by the manufacturer of TNT. Laissez les bons mots roulez. Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:50:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Manifest Destiny In-Reply-To: <19990716135641.86707.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I hesitate to respond to this. Are you saying that everything is the same and no differentiation is possible? Your interpretation of the American Revolution seems rather simplistic, but let that go. I'd love to see some documentation of Washington's thinking about making Hebrew the national language--it's new to me. And as to his interest in the Book of Revelations--I thought he was a deist. At 06:56 AM 7/16/99 PDT, you wrote: >The "field" of racism re: Williams, Pound & Eliot extends beyond the bounds >of a specific anti-semitism; ancient cultic law is not based on tolerance. >Not to be overly "Hebraic" about it, the fact remains that the murder of >former Israeli Prime Minister Rabin had, in some interpretations, rabbinical >sanction. Semitic law in general gives sanction for murder, if evidence >exists - and suspicion is often thought sufficient evidence - that a person >presents a threat to the security of the clan at large. We still operate >under a similar system, as a glance at who's who on any Death Row will tell >you. Enemies of the State. America wasn't founded to protect the interests >of any sense of the common man or to the common good; it was founded to >protect the interests of a wealthy group of molasses bootleggers operating >out of the Carribbean. Interesting in this light to recall that Washington >initially considered making Hebrew the national language, probably having to >do with aligning America with the moral authority represented by the rise of >"Israel" at the end of the world in the Book of Revelations. Nineteenth >century Manifest Destiny is a pure product of nothing but. In fact, the >genetic/hereditary science of Eugenics was a 19th century American >invention, and the Sterilization Laws passed in 1907 by the State of Indiana >"to prevent procreation of confirmed criminals, idiots, imbeciles and >rapists" was the prototype for Nazi-funded scientific missions to find >"reason" for persecution of Jews. WCW, Pound, Eliot & Co. - "us all" too - >are the inheritors of this tradition. Given this, the accusation that these >guys were "anti-semitic" seems trite; the more essential question lies in >the extent to which they - or any of us - gave (or in our case, continue to >give) sanction to state-infected suppositions toward "liberation." Calling >WCW anti-semitic merely sweetens the lie that we in fact DO have the moral >authority to "call him down," but what phantom will rise from the process of >so doing? Or more specifically, though maybe slightly off the mark, what >are the relations between poetic form, natural proportion and human law, for >example, that permit the existence of a sort of "screen" or "grate" through >which we may have intimations of the smell of death, but no actual access to >the causatively related "killing floor"? When the feeling of "threat" is >multiplied into an analogical "house of mirrors" (and perhaps of cards), how >do we identify it, ie., how do we get into the basement over which the >killing floor is laid? >S E > > > > > >>From: KENT JOHNSON >>Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >>Subject: Purity >>Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:08:33 -0500 >> >>May I indulge in some self-defense, please? >> >>Stephen Vincent wrote: >> >> >Kent Johnson's righteousness - or at least that tone - about nailing >> >WCW to an anti-Semitic cross seems to me to indulge an easy >> >dichotomy. I am not sure if Johnson's trying to throw the Doctor out >> >with the bath water, but I always get uncomfortable when anyone >> >(myself included) goes to the Holy ground with an implicit claim of >> >purity - what ever might be the issue. I would go as far >> >to say that my opposition to anti-Semitic, anti-Palestinian, racist, >> >homophobic or any other abusive behavior involves a personal >> >acknowledgment and desire to exorcise some part of my person that >> >has inherited or learned those behaviors >> >>Stephen, if I point out, as I did, that there is textual evidence of >>a strong anti-Semitic strain in Williams, why is this >>"self-righteousness"? I responded to what I felt was a significant >>blind spot in Billy Little's typically-provocative post, and did so >>in a reasonable way, I thought. Then there were four indignant >>responses, all of which strongly denied the applicability of the >>term, a couple of these calling my post "ridiculous." So I responded, >>pointing people to some specific evidence, and now am accused by you >>of being self-righteous, by implication blind to my own likely >>racism, and of trying to throw WCW "out with the bathwater." >> >>I _love_ Williams. If he was more of a prick, more humanly sinful >>than the canon-makers have let on, that does nothing to diminish the >>greatness of his poetry. And in some ways the darkness makes >>the greatness all the more fascinating! The record is the record >>(which, yes, is open to differing interpretations), and I think it's >>best to talk about it without the innuendo you interject above. >>Kent > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:47:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Balestrieri, Peter" Subject: Re: George Bowering on Name That Quote MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi George, Your memory doesn't fail you - My Darling Clementine is indeed about the fight at the OK Corral and stars Henry Fonda. Shortly after Fonda/Earp becomes Tombstone's Marshall, a touring Shakespearean actor, Mowbray/Thorndike, comes to town. He's quite a drinker and is joined in his cups by Dad/Ford(John Ford's brother). Mowbray has some poignant scenes with Fonda and Victor Mature(as Doc Holiday), especially one involving Hamlet's "To be or not to be..." When Mowbray/Thorndike leaves town, he embraces Dad/Ford and recites what may or may not be more of the Bard. The piece begins "Great souls" and mentions "allegiance" and ends with "burn." It's very touching and a beautiful recitation. I'm wondering about the origin of the quote and hoping it rings somebody's bell. I urge everyone on the List not busy trying to figure out if WCW was anti-Semitic or debating how best to get into print to rent My Darling Clementine and hear the quote firsthand. Bonuses: Linda Darnell singing, "In gambling halls he was laying, 10,000 cattle straying." and Ward Bond cussing in Spanish. Pete ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:16:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: PS on Williams In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990715181646.01134730@mail.earthlink.net> from "Mark Weiss" at Jul 15, 99 06:16:46 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit According to Mark Weiss: > > When I was a little kid we used to vacation at a cheap resort in the > Poconos, which were a lot more remote before the construction of I-80 than > it is now. I became close friends with the owner's son who had a black > German Shepherd names Nigger. I don't think he'd ever met a Black person, > but I don't doubt for a minute that he and his family were racists. But > maybe when he called his dog he was feigning a persona. > Mark, I understand where this is coming from vis a vis the Williams discussion, but it also seems worthwhile to point out that you've framed the issue in a classic and, to me, ultimately limiting way. Essentially, you're replaying a critique levied by Lukacs against existentialism - specifically Kierkegaard and Heidegger. Lukacs says that their refusal to acknowledge the unity of the Self (eg, K's view of the individual as "incognito") was just bullshit: They "embraced this doctrine of the eternal incognito which implies that a man's external deeds are no guide to his motives. In this case [Heidegger's], the deeds obscured behind the mysterious incognito were, needless to say, these intellectuals' participation in Nazism...But if this impenetrable incognito were the true 'condition humaine,' might not - concealed within their incognito - Heidegger or Schmitt have been secret opponents of Hitler all the time, only supporting him in the world of appearances?" Now, what Lukacs says here really strikes a cord. I won't get into the whole issue of Heidegger and Nazism. What I will say is that Lukacs' logic - though I sympathize deeply with his dilemma - is flawed. It presupposes that the only critique of the Unity of the Self falls along the lines of this existential concept. Lukacs, it seems to me, comes out of the humanist aspect of Marx and Marxism: the self is ethical and whole: if not, than it is damaged and unethical (evil). In the world of continental philosophy of the 30's Heidegger and Lukacs may have seemed like the operative poles (though the Franfurt folks & I think particularly Benjamin offer an alternative) - but as regards Williams, there's John Dewey, there's Kenneth Burke, offering very important alternatives to a Lukacsian perspective on the self which stays well away from this issue of the Incognito. Dewey: "individuality itself is originally a potentiality and is realized only in interaction with surrounding conditions." This statement didn't *deter* Dewey from critiquing the unity of the self - it was in fact the *predicate* by which he understood the self as a multifarious, multimotivated construction; and through which he recognized that deciphering the motives behind individual actions (including speech acts) required the same sort of time and heightened attention and open-mindedness that an anthropologist (a good one) brings to the activities of whole communities. So, just to say, that when I ask for complex thinking on this WCW/anti-semitism it is from this latter, pragmatic perspective, though not without knowledge of Lukacsian exasperation. -m. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:20:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: peter neufeld Subject: Re: Pound and the Nobel Prize MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Pound did in fact win the first Bollingen prize judged by, among others, Tate, who wrote two very interesting articles on awarding this prize to Pound-- the New York Times favorite treasonous fascist, for the _Pisan Cantos_ specifically which I see as an explicitly anti-semitic and fascist section of the Cantos and arguably the most aestheticly innovative and complex section as well. Pound despised Tate as critic and a poet, and Tate discusses his decision and the complexities of Post-War Pound in relative detail. I find this strain on WCW and anti-semitism very interesting. The interest in an authors identity and the value of that identity in relation to the work, I feel for me at least, is still open to investigation. I think it depends on how one wishes to read, under what kind of conditions the experiment is given, in what labratory we choose for it to take place. For this century it is a pressing demand in light of the WWII. An attempt to return history, I think, to the work. I'm skeptical of the fall back to the ironic reading, WCW adopting the voice of this or that position in order to somehow radically subvert this or that position. Are these poems then satires? I felt, and still do feel, that Williams deployed very negative images of African-Americans in Paterson, and if I choose to call that racism, which I do, it doesn't necessarily mean that I dismiss Williams for that. I doesn't necessarily follow that I am playing a holier-than-thou gambit either. I want to read Williams as a poet and also as historical happening. Peter _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 18:24:22 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joan Houlihan Subject: Re: Pound and the Bollingen Prize Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mark, Pls see my comments below. >Someone suggested that those who had denied Pound the Nobel Prize had >failed to separate the work from the man. Yes, I suggested it. Actually, it was the Bollingen as someone else pointed out. They were in fact remembering >some of the more disreputable works. Hmm. By "disreputable" I assume you mean with anit-semitic or treasonist content. (?) I followed the controversy fairly closely at the time as I was embroiled in huge "discussions" about it with my Jewish boyfriend--who, BTW, was also a poet and claimed to be unable to even read either Pound or Eliot after their anti-semitism came to light. Their work had been absolutely and irrevocably contaminated for him. Of course, these awards all have a political component anyway, so it isn't saying a whole lot that this was a "political" decision. >When Kurt Waldheim, after his UN career, was discovered to have committed >war crimes there were some who objected to his being elected president of >Austria--his great post-war service were apparently enough to excuse his >earlier behavior as far as the Austrian electorate was concerned, but the >critics felt that some things are unforgiveable and that to honor the >perpetrator is to diminish the apparent seriousness of what had been done. Yes, and I have to agree with those critics re: Waldheim. I mean, being elected president is quite a bit different from being given a prize for your writing. And, committing war crimes is also quite a bit different from making anti-semitic remarks--or even making those boradcasts. >Pound wasn't a war criminal, merely a fellow-traveller of war criminals, >but that's bad enough. What about the pro-Mussolini broadcasts? Not a "war criminal" per se, but pretty actively treasonous. He would certainly have gone to jail if he weren't pronounced insane. To deny him the prize was not so much a judgment on >the Cantos as a decision not to be seen as forgiving the unforgiveable in >the context of a Europe where passions like those who had expressed during >the war were and are very much alive. Exactly the point I'm making. It was **not** a judgement on the work at all--but, ideally, should have been (in my opinion). I think the work is, must be, separate from the man (or woman). This is not to say that I find the behavior trivial. When Eliza Kazan stood and received a "lifetime acheivement" award at the Oscars this spring, I found it distressing--most of the people he had harmed were still alive, or at least their families were. It seemed incredibly disrespectful to them and I was happy to see some people remain seated, not applauding (e.g. Nick Nolte). But when the retrospective came on--Streetcar Named Desire, On the Waterfront, etc. all those incredible films--I was completely moved by the acheivement. I again came round to the belief that the work is the reality for an artist/writer, not the life. Of course, a lot of the issue is how these prizes are awarded, publicized, etc., and made to **seem** to the public, to be awarded to the person, not the work. If Kazan didn't show up, it would have been easier to take. And, as you rightly point out, an award to Pound would certainly have **seemed** to be condoning his actions as a man--enough reason to not give it to him. Best, Joan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 15:29:24 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Re: Submission Crucible MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On rejection with ad enclosures: If someone is offended by this practice let them be. Poets are a dime a dozen and twelve more will show up. Readers are a much rarer commodity. The gig is to diseminate information, not appease the ego of the kind of writer who will be so infinitely hurt by a rejection as to not recover. They will not recover; preferably disappear. There is only one form of demeanment and antagonization I am aware of. A magazine that does not respond to queries about a first correspondence. Or does something similar to Big Allis. After a two year submission period, they send a letter which states they still had not read the pieces and are sending them back. Magazines who are not responsible to their constituency will suffer accordingly. Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:40:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Al Filreis Subject: Re: Pound and the Nobel Prize In-Reply-To: <01becfb0$cca65880$3fcf54a6@blwczoty> from "Jordan Davis" at Jul 16, 99 01:29:46 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pound was up for the Bollingen prize, not the Nobel. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Was awarded it, in fact, Jordan. -- Al Filreis ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:38:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Book by Palmer/Bernstein? / Ron Persons MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message came to the administrative account. Chris -- From: "Ron Persons" Date: 7/16/99, 6:52 PM -0400 I remember browsing through a book that contained either conversations between Charles Bernstein and Michael Palmer, or was edited by them, or both. Anyone know of this book? Please backchannel. thanks, RP ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 14:05:38 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Tranter Subject: KPFA mentioned in "Wired" magazine Internet News site Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This is ireprinted with thanks from Wired magazine's News site, on the internet at http://www.wired.com/news/ Radio Protests Stream in MP3 Oscar S. Cisneros 6:40 p.m. 16.Jul.99.PDT In what may be the first live protest streamed in the MP3 format, activists and ex-staffers of an independent radio station on Friday netcast their objections to being ousted. The sound quality was poor and speakers' voices were inaudible at times, but the protesters' jubilance rang clearly enough. "We must fight for free speech," shouted one speaker, to cheers from the crowd. "Without free speech we have nothing." A string of firings that began in March at KPFA -- an independent radio station in Berkeley, California -- spawned a series of protests. Demonstrations escalated Tuesday when KPFA's owners, the Pacifica Foundation, had armed guards forcibly remove staff members from the building. One announcer was on the air at the time. Most staff members were placed on administrative leave. Nine nonstaffers who protested the removals have been arrested, and police have used batons to control the crowds (400-strong at times) that the event has attracted. Pacifica had forbidden staff from discussing the firings on the air, but some employees defied the order and did it anyway. "I saw the demonstration and I thought, 'These people should start broadcasting on the Internet,'" said netcasting expert Sameer Parekh. "On Thursday I set up the broadcast equipment and Thursday evening we did the first broadcast." Parekh accomplished it by setting up a 50-watt micro-broadcaster to cover the downtown Berkeley area, and a server to stream the action over the Net. Using Icecast, an open source MP3 streaming server software suite, and a community server hosted gratis by AboveNet, Parekh began streaming the content. Ousted KPFA staff burned a CD of previous broadcasts critiquing Pacifica's tactics and calling for more community control of the radio station. Parekh has been playing the CD over and over since Thursday night. Parekh also wants micro-radio stations to lift the streams he's sending over the Net and broadcast them. "If they plug the reception of my Internet stream into the micro-power broadcasters, then their local communities can have access to the demonstrations," Parekh said. Elan Fabbri, a spokeswoman for Pacifica, said that debate over the station is misplaced. "This is not about free speech. It's about a labor dispute," she said. "We have a union contract at KPFA that has been violated." Ken Ford, a member of Pacifica's national governing board, said that the staff was placed on administrative leave not as a punitive action but for their safety, given the protests and tensions surrounding KPFA. Protesters, he said, have not answered Pacifica's calls for mediation because they can't agree on who will negotiate for them. Ford had never heard of MP3 but said the 50-watt broadcast portion of the operation was illegal. "It's a pirate station, basically," he said. "They're busy little beavers, aren't they?" sent by John Tranter, Jacket magazine ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 00:26:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Cope Subject: Re: The Germ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The Germ can be found at: The Germ c/o Macgregor Card POBox 2543 Providence, RI 02906 Thanks for the interest (and Chris, for bringing it up...) Stephen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:39:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Macgregor Card Subject: The Germ no.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ** THE GERM: a journal of poetic research, vol. 3 (belated Spring 1999) ** ** All is Not Bird that Twitters ** Featuring work from: George Oppen (a 50 p. selection of Daybooks 1-3, edited and with an introduction by Stephen Cope), John Ashbery, Faith Barrett, Anselm Berrigan, Leslie Bumstead, Clark Coolidge, Ray DiPalma, Jean Donnelly, Karen Donovan, Mark DuCharme, Marcella Durand, Chris Edgar, Michael Gizzi, Kevin Killian, John Latta, Gillian McCain, Laura Mullen, John Olson, Michael Palmer and Ben Watkins (a photo-text collaboration), Bin Ramke, Gustaf Sobin, Carol Szamatowicz, Linda Voris, Shannon Welch & Elizabeth Willis. Etchings by O. Angelica Biddle. We're in a village bookstore near you (or optimistically, at two magazine-kiosks in the great plains). Distributors: Bernhard DeBoer, Small Press Distribution, Armadillo. ISSN 1093-6610. 256 pages. Subscriptions, priced swell, no tricks: 2 issues ($12); 4 issues ($20); 6 issues (yes, only for the longevity faithful, $28). Like most folks, we're in dire need of new and/or old subscribers! Subscribe three times, seven, twenty-one! There's no cap on orders-per-family! GERM EAST: Macgregor Card PO Box 2543 Providence, RI 02906 (Macgregor_Card@Brown.edu) GERM WEST: (soon to be midwest--Chicago.) Andrew Maxwell PO Box 8501 Santa Cruz, CA 95060 (urigeller@excite.com) We're always looking for submissions, and currently with vigilance (#4 due out this November). Please send work to both addresses, we promise a vigorous reading and an ever-swifter turnaround. Cheers and thanks, yours, Macgregor Card // Andrew Maxwell ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 05:16:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: A H Bramhall Subject: Exactly This MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Earthly exactitude, maneuver this field. this is the drill: to explain the particulars. woke and found out, there is no underwear. there's a verbal point reaching the thing that that. this tree: easily equated with perception, and probing unity. lost the fact of the discussion. goofed the perimetre of answerable. listened in, thought I was in. stepped out, John is better. beer for everyone, the house is open. I blank dearest. the shot is blocked, the turn around. wait for it. the fact is this: an orange or pink blouse, a tree (perhaps elm), stars smiling. things. the desperate honour of lunch. who will weigh in? at this point, news, newly sprung and attendant. what are mountainsides? exactly this, my friend. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 18:10:23 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: John Tranter Subject: Ezra Pound and the Bollingen Prize for Literature, 1949. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I thought the List might want to look through this: an excerpt from William McGuire, Poetry's Catbird Seat (the consultantship in poetry in the English language at the Library of Congress, 1937-1987), Library of Congress, Washington, 1988, 512 pages, ISBN 0-8444-0586-8. This (very selective) excerpt is 1,500 words long . ============================== In 1948 The Bollingen Foundation's trustees voted an allocation of $10,000 for ten years of literary awards. [ . . . ] (The Foundation's name had been Mary Mellon's oblique way of honoring C. G. Jung, who had a country retreat near a Swiss village called Bollingen.) [ . . . ] On March 4, 1948, a Library of Congress press release announced the Bollingen Prize in Poetry. Carrying a purse of $1,000, the prize would be awarded each February for the best book of verse by an American author published during the preceding calendar year. The jury of selection would be composed of the Fellows in American Letters of the Library of Congress. [ . . . ] A final ballot was cast by mail in February (as the 1948 prize would lapse on February 28): ten first places for Pound [for The Pisan Cantos], two for [W.C.] Williams, one abstention (Paul Green's)-and the vote of Theodore Spencer, who had died a few weeks before, was taken to stand as a first place for Pound, as it was he who had placed the Pisan Cantos in nomination back in November. [ . . . ] The story was broken on Saturday night, the nineteenth, by Charles Collingwood in his radio news broadcast. The Sunday New York Times headline was characteristic of the press reaction: "Pound, in Mental Clinic, Wins Prize for Poetry Penned in Treason Cell." As Evans (Luther H.Evans, the Librarian of Congress) later observed, "The award possessed that bizarre quality that makes news. Along with excited reports, indignant editorials appeared in the press." An editorial in the New York Herald Tribune, however, stated: "This emphasis on an objective criterion of beauty and excellence, akin to belief in an objective truth, is fundamental to a free and rational society. In maintaining it the judges acted in the only way that is open to men who are sensitive to a later verdict of history." In the same paper, Louis Untermeyer called the Pisan Cantos "a ragbag and tail end of Pound at his worst. It shows a very disordered mind, one affected by the seeds of Fascism," and Robert Hillyer thought the award "regrettable" for aesthetic rather than political reasons. "I never saw anything to admire, not one line, in Pound." [ . . . ] Robert Frost, in a memorandum to his secretary Kay Morrison soon after the award was announced, called it "an unendurable outrage" and Pound "possibly crazy but more likely criminal." [ . . . ] Huntington Cairns, in his journal, described one of his visits to St. Elizabeths. "I saw Pound for an hour on Saturday, Feb. 19th. The director of the hospital had informed him that he had won the Bollingen Prize, and he was obviously excited by the news. He had prepared a statement for the Press: 'No comment from the Bug House,' but he had decided not to give it out. [ . . . ] Walter Winchell quoted Pound's comment on the same occasion: "Democracy is more stupid than ever I said it was." Tate, incensed, asked Pound's wife to check on that. "Total lie" was Pound's answer. He called Winchell a "Jewish bedbug." [. . . ] For a time, controversy over the prize subsided. It was suddenly revived when the Saturday Review of Literature, in its issues of June 11 and 18, published two long articles by Robert Hillyer - "Treason's Strange Fruit" and "Poetry's New Priesthood." Hillyer, earlier a professor at Harvard (his students Howard Nemerov and Robert Fitzgerald remembered him as a gifted teacher), won the Pulitzer Prize for poetry in 1934, and in 1939 was president of the Poetry Society of America. [ . . . ] Hillyer was regarded by many of his literary peers as an isolated figure who had carried on a long critical campaign against Eliot and Auden, whom he regarded as his poetic rivals. During the late spring, Evans and Adams had had letters from Hillyer and from Harrison Smith, the editor of the Review, putting questions about the award. Hillyer's were marked by a threatening tone, with insulting references to conspiracy and negligence. The F.B.1. had been alerted, he said; and an article would be published. [ . . . ] In his two articles, Hillyer declared that the Cantos are "the vehicle of contempt for America, [of] Fascism, anti-Semitism, and . . . ruthless mockery of our Christian war dead." He implied that the award was part of a conspiracy against American ways of life and literature, and that the conspirators included T. S. Eliot, Paul Mellon, Jung, the Bollingen Foundation, Pantheon Books, most of the Fellows in American Letters, admirers of Eliot and Pound, the New Criticism, and various literary quarterlies. Their common aim, he argued, was to seize power in the literary world and undertake "the mystical and cultural preparation for a new authoritarianism. . . . In a spiritual morass where language, ethics, literature, and personal courage melt into something obscure and formless, a guided impulse has stirred the amorphous haze into something approaching form, something shaped out of stagnant art by groping Fascism." [ . . . ] On June 24, Congressman Jacob K. Javits, of the 21 st District, New York, wrote Evans: "After having read the editorial 'Treason's Strange Fruit' . . . I am particularly concerned about the awarding of the Bollingen-Library of Congress Award of $1,000 to Ezra Pound. I would very much appreciate your advising me how the Fellows who make this award were chosen, who they are and the basis of their selection." [ . . . ] On July 19, another congressman, James T. Patterson, of Connecticut, addressed the House regarding the award ("Should we encourage the activities in literature of moral lepers?") and inserted into the Congressional Record the Hillyer articles, Evans's letter, and the Saturday Review's reply. On the twenty-first, Javits called for an investigation ("Must we not be equally diligent to investigate the infiltration of Fascist ideas especially in so august an institution as the Library of Congress?"), and the matter came before the Congressional Joint Committee on the Library of Congress, whose chairman was Senator Theodore F. Green, of Rhode Island. What transpired was not an investigation but a resolution, on August 19, to the effect that the Library should abstain from giving prizes or making awards. ("I think it is a bad policy for the government to give prizes and awards, especially in matters of taste," the Senator told the press.) Evans immediately announced compliance. The awards that the Library discontinued, besides the Bollingen Prize, were the Elizabeth Sprague Coolidge Medal for "eminent services to chamber music" and three prizes endowed by Lessing Rosenwald in connection with an annual national exhibition of prints. In that same feverish summer of 1949, William Carlos Williams was also the object of a small cloud of protest, raised by his review of the Pisan Cantos in the spring issue of Imagi, a very small poetry quarterly published in Baltimore. During July, Evans received a few letters, all alike in content, protesting Williams's appointment as Consultant in Poetry - evidently the result of confusion with his appointment as a Fellow earlier in the year. Some of the letters came from the editors of other small verse magazines (in Arkansas, California, etc.), saying for example, "That [Williams] should defend such a work places him in the same category with Pound, that of utter contempt and treachery to all the ideals for which America stands. . . ." [ . . . ] After the prize was barred (and $9,000 returned to the donor) the Bollingen Foundation received a number of requests from universities to carry it on. In early 1950, the Yale University Library was granted the funds to continue making the awards. The winner of the 1949 Prize, selected by a committee whose members - Adams, Aiken, Shapiro, Chapin, Warren - had all been Fellows in American Letters ]at the Library of Congress], was Wallace Stevens. [ . . . ] In 1963 the amount of the award was increased to $5,000, and thereafter it was given every other year. After 1968, when the Bollingen Foundation ended its programs (except for the Bollingen Series, which it gave to Princeton University Press to carry through its publication), the Andrew W Mellon Foundation took over, and in 1973 made an outright endowment of $100,000 to enable the Yale Library to continue awarding the prize in perpetuity. By now [1988] more than thirty poets, including many of the Consultants, have received the Bollingen Prize. They keep coming on. Cowley to Tate, October 21, 1949: "I went to a literary tea for Nehru. Present were the editors of the Saturday Review... Harrison Smith saw me and advanced beaming. 'I was going to write and congratulate you,' he said, 'on the article about Hillyer. I think you had the right dope. Of course, we just printed the Hillyer articles and the editorial to start a controversy. It was a great success. We thought it would give us three exciting issues but it went on for six.' ============================== from John Tranter, 39 Short Street, Balmain NSW 2041, Sydney, Australia tel (+612) 9555 8502 fax (+612) 9818 8569 Editor, Jacket magazine: http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/welcome.html Homepage: five megabytes of glittering literature, free, at http://www.alm.aust.com/~tranterj/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:44:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Error-Message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Error-Message ("Hello world!") (if (and (bound like a big string 'emacs-version) (or (and (bound like a string 'epoch::version) epoch::version) (string-less string-full emacs-version "19.29"))) (error "`stringy' was compiled for Emacs 19.29 or later")) (string-full errors: July 17 then (mount stringy-string `x` || strung-up errors: July 14 then (elseif a really big string) (strung-up > dev/mul))) (car(caddr(cadddr(s t r i n g i n g - s t r i n g)))) (endif strung-out stringy-string ("a really big string")) (byte-code-stringy "n/n!/*") ________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 23:19:18 -500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Rosenberg Subject: wr-eye-tings will live again (promise!) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Here is the status of resurrecting the wr-eye-tings list: 1. I've got a solid volunteer to host the list who's already set up to do this. 2. I've configured my own mail server to do this in case something goes wrong. (I would just go ahead and host the list myself, but my volunteer's Internet connectivity is better than mine. I'll announce the name of our rescuer with grateful thanks when we've got everything set up.) So we have a new home in the wings for wr-eye-tings. It's *quite likely* you will have to resubscribe. Please stay tuned for an announcement, which should come in the next few days. In the meantime, please be patient. If you happen to know someone that you know is subscribed to wr-eye-tings but is not on the Poetics List, you might pass on the word that wr-eye-tings is down but is being reconstituted. --- Jim Rosenberg http://www.well.com/user/jer/ CIS: 71515,124 WELL: jer Internet: jr@amanue.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 00:34:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Julie Johnson Subject: ATTN Small Press Publishers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Duration Press is seeking to develop a web page dedicated exclusively to Small Press Announcements. This list, which will be updated every two weeks, will give interested parties a one stop place to look for recent publications. As the list is updated, Duration Press will also house an archive of previous lists, in order to give readers a kind of bibliography in process of small press publications. This list, of course, will depend upon the participation of both readers & publishers. If this sounds like a resource that anyone would be interested in seeing, please send all comments to Jerrold Shiroma at three7@earthlink.net . Hopefully the response to this will be large enough to warrant constructing this resource. All best, Jerrold Shiroma Duration Press ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 04:35:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: juliana spahr Subject: request for horror stories involving work sent to aca journal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All this talk about submitting to poetry journals reminded me that I am collecting horror stories involving work sent to academic (peer reviewed; critical) journals. I'm giving a paper at the mla on the not very exciting topic of simultaneous submissions. Anyway, I'm the pro person the panel--arguing that the reviewing practices of academic journals are filled with abuse and simultaneous submissions might be one way to force journals to reform. I'm interested in collecting stories (academic journals only; not poetry or small press journals). Please back channel them to me. If I were to refer to your story in the paper, I would approve it with you and respect any sort of privacy that you might desire. Thanks. Juliana Spahr js@lava.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:42:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: A H Bramhall Subject: pointless questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit how much authority is enough? where do you buy this commodity? how do you get the others to listen? where did Eliot Weinberger come from? why wasn't he here to begin with? what's fear worth these days? which poem are you referring to? what's your favourite of all the poems you don't read? can we talk Tennyson? how long did it take you to find out? who's out now? where are the boundaries? which one's the boss? who cares? when did all this come down? who's in charge of these words? who owns the owners? which credential do you prefer? what's your idea of relief? what part of death is not necessary? where have you been all day? what's the best way to get out of here? can you find a better route there? behind who should you hide? at what point will you know that you have won? are you as ready as you need to be? are all circles the same? can we question questions? will there be time later? who should we turn to? does the perimetre change? do we? are you quite sure? is there one in many? just asking, this is no test, no test at all. Allen Bramhall ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 19:01:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lowther,John" Subject: ~ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain where i thought a turn is broken but occurence led me leads back there's no return ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:35:11 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hamish John Dewe Subject: Re: Not all salt is NaCl In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990716195654.009d8bc0@pop3.zipworld.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sorry, John(s). We became aware of the other Aus Salt sometime after starting the NZ Salt. We did toy with the idea of changing names, but didn't want to risk confusing our rather small (even by NZ standards) readership, and supposed that our readerships weren't overlapping. Hamish Dewe > In response to a recent posting from New Zealand about a magazine called > "Salt", I'd like to pass on to the Buffalo List the following: > > "John Kinsella, editor of the Australian [literary magazine] "Salt", would > like to state clearly > that the journal he has edited since 1990 has no connection with the newish > NZ journal of the same name." > > John Tranter, editor, Jacket magazine > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 22:30:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: The Animal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII \ The Animal It's fifty years from now and there's this one animal left. It doesn't matter what you call it, where it lived. It goes on now by artificial means, intravenous feeding, automated evacuation. It has nothing to look at, maybe its eyes are clouded over. The animal stands there, it's recorded from every angle. Temperature, even radio-radiation, audio, video, hologram, old quickcams and 4x5 plate cam- eras, everything they could think of. Terabytes of information flow out through thick cables, documenting its every move, it shuffles. On and on and on, into huge computers, they take the information, alter it. Suddenly there are recreations of tropical forests, African savannas, Pennsylvanian hilltops, deserts at night. The animal's reconstructed as wolf, ibis, snake, spider, bear. Now everyone can see the wildlife through the glasses, through the screens, through implants. The animal turns in its sleep, even the animal has to dream. Walls, nothing, the placement of a foot. Overhead, screens, birds soar, shimmer. The tail of the animal, maybe, the whiskers. __________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:37:57 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hugh Nicoll Subject: wr-eye-tings list Comments: To: Thomas Bell , "Ted D. Warnell" , "R. Drake" , Deena Larsen , Rinaldo Rasa , reiner strasser , skipsilver , Annie Abrahams , miekal and , Matt Kirschenbaum , "Loss Pequen~o Glazier" , Robert Kendall , ht_lit@consecol.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; Charset=US-ASCII Greetings from Miyazaki, Japan In response to Jim Rosenberg's plea for help, I have set up a new home for the wr-eye-tings list on my mail list machine. The list is running on LetterRip Pro, a Mac mailserver, that lives on a PM7100 here in my office. The subscription procedure is very simple. Send an email message to requests@cedar.miyazaki-mu.ac.jp with the line subscribe wr-eye-tings in the body of the message. Please make sure your sig file is turned off in your mail program. If you have trouble or suggestions for tweaking the list settings, digest options, sig file info etc. please contact me at hnicoll@miyazaki-mu.ac.jp All the best, Hugh Hugh Nicoll, Miyazaki Municipal University, Funatsuka 1-1-2, Miyazaki-shi, Miyazaki-ken, 880-8520 JAPAN tel 81-(0)985-20-4788, fax 81-(0)985-20-4807 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 05:55:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Hass on Lee Ann Brown Comments: To: Poetics List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Hass is on a roll in his Washington Post Poet's Choice column. He follows last week's piece on Fanny Howe with this one on Lee Ann Brown: http://search.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1999-07/18/049l-071899-idx.ht ml Like some other folks I know, he doesn't quite get the seriousness of her endeavor, but his good will is evident throughout. Also, the boy's a little unclear on Tender Buttons. That was a book, Bob, not a prose poem. Ron ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:08:18 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Franco Subject: BOSTON LAST CALL BOSTON!!!!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ANNOUNCING: THE 2nd ANNUAL BOSTON ALTERNATIVE POETRY CONFERENCE JULY 23-25, 1999 The Art Institute of Boston at Lesley 700 Beacon St. Boston, MA SCHEDULE OF EVENTS: as of 6/30/99 Friday, July 23 6:30 p.m. - Night Reading - Andrew Schelling, C.D. Wright, Michael Franco, Anselm Berrigan, Magdalena Zurawski, Daniel Bouchard, Donna de la Perriere Saturday, July 24 9:00 a.m. - William Bronk Reading - (Jack Kimball, Donna de la Perriere and others) 10:00 a.m. - Morning Reading - Douglas Rothschild, Sean Cole, Diane Wald, Barbara Claire Freeman, Richard Dillon, Brendan Lorber 12:00 Noon - Lunch Break 1:00 p.m. - Frank Ohara Reading - (Anne Waldman, Jordan Davis, Douglas Rothschild and others) 2:00 p.m. - Alan Gilbert - "Poetry as Document" 2:30 p.m. - Afternoon Reading - Tina Darragh, Beth Anderson, Peter Ganick, Drew Gardner, Chris Stroffolino, Alan Gilbert, Patrick Doud, David Kirschenbaum, Sam Truitt, Ed Barrett,Ammiel Alcalay 5:00 p.m. - Dinner Break 6:00 p.m. - Maria Damon - "Something About Bob Kaufman and the Poet's Labor" 7:00 p.m. - Night Reading - Anne Waldman, Leslie Scalapino, John Wieners, Gerrit Lansing, Michael Gizzi, Kristin Prevallet Sunday, July 25 9:00 a.m. - Emily Dickinson Reading - (Joseph Lease, Jack Kimball and others) 10:00 a.m. - Morning Reading - Jack Kimball, Prageeta Sharma, Jacques Debrot, Heather Scott Peterson, Aaron Kiely 12:00 Noon - Lunch Break 1:00 p.m. - Afternoon Reading - "Ways to Read" (Michael Basinski, Wendy Kramer, Kenneth Goldsmith) 2:00 p.m. - Afternoon Reading - Raffael de Gruttola, Tadashi Kondo, Wilfred Croteau (renku and haiga)- Andrew Schelling reads from his "Road to Ocosingo" 3:00 p.m. - Afternoon Reading - Lewis Warsh, Will Alexander, Jordan Davis, Henry Gould, Damon Krukowski, Jim Behrle, Marcella Durand 5:00 p.m. - Dinner Break 6:00 p.m. - David Shapiro - "A Radiant Pluralism: For Poetry" 7:00 p.m. - Night Reading - David Shapiro, Lyn Hejinian, Forrest Gander, Joseph Lease, Lisa Jarnot CONFERENCE REGISTRATION: Weekend Pass: $40 Saturday or Sunday only: $18 Single Readings: $7 Student discounts available. Tickets available at the door or by pre-registration. For more registration info. contact Aaron Kiely at this email, by phone at 413-586-4532 or at PO Box 441517, Somerville, MA 02144 Thank You! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:34:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Stefans Subject: What to do with all this Real? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I don't think this is a fair reading of what I wrote. Perhaps, if you'd like a new angle on this, you can imagine writing a story with your friend from the Poconos as the protagonist, and when quoting him in the story not use quotation marks. You, as most of us, would be very frightened to do this because you would wonder if a reader would think these were words reflecting your own opinions or personality. But nonetheless this is what a lot of modernists did, I guess because it was supposed to be an unmediated representation of objective reality, which in the scientific spirit of the day was a primary goal. Of course, if you don't think your friend from the Poconos is worth literary immortality you wouldn't write the story at all, but then again you wrote this post, so your friend, racist or not, was somehow useful. Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:16:46 -0700 From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: PS on Williams When I was a little kid we used to vacation at a cheap resort in the Poconos, which were a lot more remote before the construction of I-80 than it is now. I became close friends with the owner's son who had a black German Shepherd names Nigger. I don't think he'd ever met a Black person, but I don't doubt for a minute that he and his family were racists. But maybe when he called his dog he was feigning a persona. At 01:21 PM 7/15/99 -0400, you wrote: >As a sort of postscipt to my other comments on Williams, I would note that >the quotes Eliot Weinberger draws from his stories, while being quite >powerfully derogatory, could be seen to consistently fall within the realm >of "speaking through the other," i.e. echoings of the local tongue and >prejudices, and also within my idea of the fetishized ethnicity. My sense >is that Williams didn't belong to any local community in Rutherford in any >very easy way -- he felt quite alienated, as we all know -- so a lot of >what sounds like "plain speech" in Williams can often be seen as not his >own plain speech, until perhaps the Asphodel poem where it seems all him. >But that's because we know to whom he is speaking -- i.e. Flossy. But when >he writes "He was one of those Jews..." sounding like he's addressing >someone, but who is this? (If one imagines that he thought his first or >only readers for such stories would be his sophisticated New York literati >friends, many of whom were Jewish, how do these lines resonate with them?) > >In any case, what would be interesting would be if someone could find the >kind of invective that one finds in Pound and Cummings and others, or the >kind of detached "objective" tone in Eliot's writing on Christian culture, >in Williams -- i.e. something more discursive and outside the realm of pure >imagism, something with a sure sense of audience and purpose -- since such >a thing would point to a more synthesized world-view in Williams that >presently we can't see. I've never quite figured out whom Williams was >addressing in Spring and All, for example -- much of which, as I'd written >to a friend earlier, would sound like the most vicious "flame" on the >internet -- and I think this vagueness about his audience contributes to >the choppy, seemingly incomplete nature of his "career," i.e. the ups and >downs of his work. > >Also, can I suggest Marianne Moore as a modernist not motivated by hate or >exhibited anti-semitism? I'll probably find this wasn't the case. > >Brian > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 18:14:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Organization: @Home Network Subject: asylum Comments: To: "webart@onelist.com" , wr-eye-tings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been informed a piece I collaborated on (in?) with (put together with?) three visual artists has been posted (published? at: http://www.channel.org.uk/asylum tom bell -- //\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\ OOOPSY \///\\\/\///\\\/ <><>,...,., WHOOPS J K JOVE BY HHH ZOOOOZ ZEUS'WRATHHTARW LLLL STOPG [ EMPTY ] SPACER index of online work at http://members.home.net/trbell essays: http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/criticism/gloom.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 02:57:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Nada Gordon & Gary Sullivan In-Reply-To: <19990714180800.94684.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII It was a pleasure to see two successful "men of letters" approaching 50, John Yau and Charles Bernstein (& yes Charles I mention your name publically here, in attempted good faith, as "psychic payment" for your private praise of a point or two I made at the L(R)J conference!) present at the reading of Gary Sullivan and Nada Gordon this sunday at the Zinc Bar. It was a little sad to see not too many others there, but I don't want so much to "lay the guilt trip on those who didn't show" as proactively promote, a la that Game Theory song "sleeping through heaven" which is fun to sing to others.... Anyway, it was no mere reading but a, from this distance, true collaborative dialogue between these writer/lovers (lover/writers) that may serve as the beginning of a much needed (at least in NYC poetry scene) attempt to dissolve, as much as possible and desirable (or at least intensely toy with, and be toyed by) the barriers between the "political" and the "personal" the "aesthetic" and the "ethical", the "elliptical" and the "straightforward" the "public" and the "private" etc. (i sacrifice rhyme and rhythm for analogical significance here) What gary and Nada seem to be embarking on is a couragous attempt to render explicit, through a dramatic embodiment, many concepts that are ostensibly touted and/or embraced by the "avant-garde" but whose "products" so rarely achieve, or at least reveale, the symbiosis that occurs both between two people "in the throes" as it were as well as between those "blue poles" of "life" and "art". What G and S suggest is that there may not be able to be a connection between two people unless there is also an attempt to connect life and art, without subordinating one to the other, except theatricaly (in moments) of course, within the conceptual frame of endless possibility in the context of monogamous (for the time being, in the "nest phase" at least), but otherwise "nontraditional" love... This was the first (of what I hope will be more) public performance of these young(ish) artist/lovers, and the content of their poetic epistles (and nada's acapellas, which would be even better, i'd argue, with musical--say, piano--backup) has not yet, for me, eclipsed the sense of the sheer radicalness of the concept Gordon and Sullivan propose.... To emphasize the conceptual aspect (frame?) of their work is not meant to be taken as derogatory. The courae it takes to include a computerized-voice reading of un-obscene pornography (more tabooed in "avant-garde" scenes allegedly more on the grunds of its lack of linguistic innovation than for any anti-pleasury ideology aeshetic or ogery), for instance, among the most abstract and/or lyrical of musings, for me, takes on a conceptual significance that not only challenges community standards of "good art" but also raises the question of whether anti-desire aeshetics, or an art-for-art's-sake attitude and behavior, may NOT simply "make nothing happen," but rather, dangerously, widen the gap between art and life, and highten alienation... Because Gary and Nada's work (dealinating too first name from last name) is groundedin the feeling and idea of an all-emcompassing eros (although that love is not its only ground), it may seem to provide an exemplary contrast to other so-called conceptual artists. For instance (see Village Voice, July 6, 1999 article by C.Carr), the situationist-influenced young "performance artist" Christine Hill, whose thought-provoking meshing of 'everyday commerce' activities and art have been gaining some attention recently. According to Carr, "Hill's work really blurs the art/life line because it's about creating something that IS life. She has worked in the past as a masseuse, waitress, shopkeeper, and lead singer in a rock band--activities she desginated as ART while they also provided an income..." Hill thinks of drawing and painting as "apprentice skills" and she is out to create situations, not objects.... Sullivan and Gordon, however, don't seem to conceive of writing as "apprentice skills" but rather allow for or encourage actively more of a symbiosis, and in this sense I'd argue go beyond Hill (So, maybe Deitch Projects or the Public Art Fund could fund them too!)... Unlike Hill (and lacking her hard-nosed practicality, one might argue), G and S are not as interested in eradicating the aspect of the life/art dichomotomy that makes it such a difficult challenge to "unite one's vocation and avocation" (to paraphrase Frost's wistful hope without a net...)> What they do for money, their public role outside of their role as a "couple of writers" (in the highest sense of that phrase) is not emphasized. One could imagine, perhaps, an art attitude that combines these two distinct ways (Hill's and G and S's) of blurring or eradicating the life/art distinction, but perhaps this is too much to ask, or perhaps the difference is best unbridgeable. (more, to be continued, in next post quite shortly....) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 03:15:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Nada and Gary (continued) In-Reply-To: <19990714180800.94684.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hill, as an individual artist, chooses to present herself theatrically as an installation piece (as TOURGUIDE and Used-clothes proprietor, etc., giving "new meaning" to the convention of the "studio visit"), in ways that may be compared to the largely individualist ethos of, say, Annie Sprinkle (sex or at least breasts being more like business than like love), while Sullivan and Gordon, at this phase at least, by challenging the idea of the individual, and the objectification of the other, or of the self for that matter, by becoming mutual muses for each other, and bracketting the economic exigencies and mediations that inform (and even drive) Hill's role-playing, create a conceptual art that meshes poetry and life in a way that can move toward undoing some very stubborn either/or dichotomies that, through compartmentalization, either reduce the tension to a manageable working partnership, or make it more impossible to love (depending on one's definition of), live. Because N and G write to each other directly, they not only discover (and invent?) in each other a form capacious enough for all modes of writing, but they also find in all modes of writing, a way to embrace the tradition of (love) poetry, of lyric and discursive, or even fragment/aphoristic singularity while also challenging it by more inclusively putting it in dialogue WITH dialogue--a dialogue that can only become MORE dramatic, even as the realtonship may seem to stabilize (freer the tighter).... If there seems something too utopian yet about their perfomance (if they ignored, for instance, my request to include more of their verbal "fight scenes" in this first public performance), this is not to be condemned, or even merely tolerated and swept under the rug by being judged by the standards of 'safe art' as 'mediocre' if judged by 'literary' merits.... You have to start somewhere, and the myth of true lovers, or even "soulmates" that may "transport" each other, though certainly partaking to some degree in fiction (and surely hokey to the embarrassed or embittered), is at least as fitting a place to start as any (especially against a backdrop of a model of profit and loss which may perhaps contaminate many potential loves). They should be given the poetry teaching jobs! Or at least be made examples in polemic arguments that wield more cultural authority, or institutional sway, than mine (if I was "talking policy" with "the big girls" say)... Ah, when is a joke not a joke.... So,Hail Gary Sullivan and Nada Gordon, ....... chris stroffolino ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 17:07:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: PS on Williams In-Reply-To: <199907161816.OAA45602@dept.english.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It's good to be reminded from time to time why I don't mind having been such a bad graduate student. I don't think I ever suggested that complex thinking about anything is ever out of order, nor that Williams was uniformly a bad man. I am suggesting that to understand is not necessarily to forgive. Perhaps especially if one is a member of the victimized group. Here, by way of illustration, is a story I heard from a friend not five minutes ago. His ex-wife, with whom he has a passably friendly relationship, had their two young children last night. He gets home late to an hysterical message on his machine: the kids had awakened in the middle of the night to find themselves alone. This morning he discovers that the x had gone out to a bar because she needed some adult company. It's a hard time for her--she just broke up with her guy, and her father, to whom she was very close, just died of cancer. She's usually not that irresponsible. Easy to understand her situation as complexly as one likes, not so easy to forgive. And I did all that without reference to a single philosopher. At 02:16 PM 7/16/99 -0400, you wrote: >According to Mark Weiss: >> >> When I was a little kid we used to vacation at a cheap resort in the >> Poconos, which were a lot more remote before the construction of I-80 than >> it is now. I became close friends with the owner's son who had a black >> German Shepherd names Nigger. I don't think he'd ever met a Black person, >> but I don't doubt for a minute that he and his family were racists. But >> maybe when he called his dog he was feigning a persona. >> > >Mark, I understand where this is coming from vis a vis the Williams >discussion, but it also seems worthwhile to point out that you've framed >the issue in a classic and, to me, ultimately limiting way. Essentially, >you're replaying a critique levied by Lukacs against existentialism - >specifically Kierkegaard and Heidegger. Lukacs says that their refusal to >acknowledge the unity of the Self (eg, K's view of the individual as >"incognito") was just bullshit: > >They "embraced this doctrine of the eternal incognito which implies that a >man's external deeds are no guide to his motives. In this case >[Heidegger's], the deeds obscured behind the mysterious incognito were, >needless to say, these intellectuals' participation in Nazism...But if >this impenetrable incognito were the true 'condition humaine,' might not - >concealed within their incognito - Heidegger or Schmitt have been secret >opponents of Hitler all the time, only supporting him in the world of >appearances?" > >Now, what Lukacs says here really strikes a cord. I won't get into the >whole issue of Heidegger and Nazism. What I will say is that Lukacs' >logic - though I sympathize deeply with his dilemma - is flawed. It >presupposes that the only critique of the Unity of the Self falls along >the lines of this existential concept. Lukacs, it seems to me, comes out >of the humanist aspect of Marx and Marxism: the self is ethical and whole: >if not, than it is damaged and unethical (evil). In the world of >continental philosophy of the 30's Heidegger and Lukacs may have seemed >like the operative poles (though the Franfurt folks & I think >particularly Benjamin offer an alternative) - but as regards Williams, >there's John Dewey, there's Kenneth Burke, offering very important >alternatives to a Lukacsian perspective on the self which stays well away >from this issue of the Incognito. Dewey: "individuality itself is >originally a potentiality and is realized only in interaction with >surrounding conditions." This statement didn't *deter* Dewey from >critiquing the unity of the self - it was in fact the *predicate* by which >he understood the self as a multifarious, multimotivated construction; and >through which he recognized that deciphering the motives behind >individual actions (including speech acts) required the same sort of time >and heightened attention and open-mindedness that an anthropologist (a >good one) brings to the activities of whole communities. So, just to say, >that when I ask for complex thinking on this WCW/anti-semitism it is from >this latter, pragmatic perspective, though not without knowledge of >Lukacsian exasperation. > >-m. > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 20:44:53 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: RaeA100900@AOL.COM Subject: address request MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wonder if anyone in List Land could give me an email address for Ed Foster of Talisman? Rae Armantrout ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:26:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael W Bibby Subject: Pound/Bollingen In-Reply-To: <19990716182028.5131.rocketmail@web1002.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I've been following the thread on Williams/Pound/anti-semitism with great interest. My current research focuses on African-American poetry from about 1945-1955, and many points being made on the list touch on issues of concern to me. I was glad to see someone (Peter Neufeld) finally correct the earlier error--Pound did indeed receive the Bollingen and it ignited a substantial controversy. John Tranter's quotations from McGuire's book were especially interesting. I spent some time last summer looking through the Cleanth Brooks papers at the Beinecke--letters from Allen Tate to Brooks show that there was deep contempt for Hillyer at Kenyon and among the New Crit poets--and Tate encouraged Brooks to write a letter, which he did, attacking the SRL for even printing Hillyer's editorials. But what I'd like to ask the list members--and I've already asked H-AMSTDY and AFAM-L about this, with no luck--is if anyone knows of any response to the Pound debate among African American writers of the period. I'm familiar with the Pound/Hughes connection (and I've studied the letters from Ez to Hughes at Beinecke)--but does anyone know what other writers were saying? Did Wright, Ellison, Dodson, Hayden, Brooks, etc. comment on this? I couldn't find anything on it in major black periodicals of the day (*Negro Digest*, *Crisis*, *Phylon*). But am I overlooking something? Thanks! Michael Bibby Department of English Shippensburg University 1871 Old Main Drive Shippensburg, PA 17257 (717) 532-1723 mwbibb@ark.ship.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 13:48:11 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Tranter Subject: Gabriela Mistral, translated by Langston Hughes. 1957 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'd like Jacket magazine to publish a discussion of this book (below): is there anyone out there who would like to put together a couple of thousand words on the topic? Jacket is free, and thus (unfortunately) unable to pay for contributions. ================================================ Mistral, Gabriela. (Pseud. of Godoy Alcayaga, Lucila 1889- 1957). Selected Poems of Gabriela Mistral, translated and introduced by Langston Hughes. 1957. Bloomington. Indiana University Press, Poetry Series. There may have been printings also in 1962 and 1972. ============================================= best, John Tranter from John Tranter, 39 Short Street, Balmain NSW 2041, Sydney, Australia tel (+612) 9555 8502 fax (+612) 9818 8569 Editor, Jacket magazine: http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/welcome.html Homepage: five megabytes of glittering literature, free, at http://www.alm.aust.com/~tranterj/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:15:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hilton Manfred Obenzinger Subject: Re: Manifest Destiny In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990716105016.010d95e0@mail.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII There was a movement to revive Hebrew. I am not sure about Washington, but others, such as Ezra Stiles at Yale, did consider Hebrew absolutely essential as the divine language (Hence the Hebrew in the Yale coat of arms). The Book of Revelations figured into all millennialist calculations -- and even most deists were millennialists. The typological identification of America as the New Israel goes back to the original English settlers and the notion traveled through all sorts of religious and secular paths, along with the doctrine of Jewish restoration (advocated by Tom Paine, for example). None of this is Jewish -- rather, the protestant adaptation of covenant identity to settler-colonial purposes, as was done, in different ways, by Scotts-Irish in Ulster, Afrikaners in South Africa, and (later and in not characteristically rabbinically Jewish ways) by Zionists in Israel. Even, in some ways, by Americoliberians in Liberia. All of this is complex and thorny. I write about it in more depth in my forthcoming book "American Palestine: Melville, Twain, and The Holy Land Mania" coming out in November. Indeed, American is a creation of the rum trade -- but also considerably more than that. The covenantal mentality is still very much with us -- as "American Dream" and in other more explicitly religious ways, with both good as well as a lot of bad results. William Carlos Williams is no exception -- which is why "pure products" are so crazy. Hilton Obenzinger On Fri, 16 Jul 1999, Mark Weiss wrote: > I hesitate to respond to this. Are you saying that everything is the same > and no differentiation is possible? > > Your interpretation of the American Revolution seems rather simplistic, but > let that go. I'd love to see some documentation of Washington's thinking > about making Hebrew the national language--it's new to me. And as to his > interest in the Book of Revelations--I thought he was a deist. > > At 06:56 AM 7/16/99 PDT, you wrote: > >The "field" of racism re: Williams, Pound & Eliot extends beyond the bounds > >of a specific anti-semitism; ancient cultic law is not based on tolerance. > >Not to be overly "Hebraic" about it, the fact remains that the murder of > >former Israeli Prime Minister Rabin had, in some interpretations, rabbinical > >sanction. Semitic law in general gives sanction for murder, if evidence > >exists - and suspicion is often thought sufficient evidence - that a person > >presents a threat to the security of the clan at large. We still operate > >under a similar system, as a glance at who's who on any Death Row will tell > >you. Enemies of the State. America wasn't founded to protect the interests > >of any sense of the common man or to the common good; it was founded to > >protect the interests of a wealthy group of molasses bootleggers operating > >out of the Carribbean. Interesting in this light to recall that Washington > >initially considered making Hebrew the national language, probably having to > >do with aligning America with the moral authority represented by the rise of > >"Israel" at the end of the world in the Book of Revelations. Nineteenth > >century Manifest Destiny is a pure product of nothing but. In fact, the > >genetic/hereditary science of Eugenics was a 19th century American > >invention, and the Sterilization Laws passed in 1907 by the State of Indiana > >"to prevent procreation of confirmed criminals, idiots, imbeciles and > >rapists" was the prototype for Nazi-funded scientific missions to find > >"reason" for persecution of Jews. WCW, Pound, Eliot & Co. - "us all" too - > >are the inheritors of this tradition. Given this, the accusation that these > >guys were "anti-semitic" seems trite; the more essential question lies in > >the extent to which they - or any of us - gave (or in our case, continue to > >give) sanction to state-infected suppositions toward "liberation." Calling > >WCW anti-semitic merely sweetens the lie that we in fact DO have the moral > >authority to "call him down," but what phantom will rise from the process of > >so doing? Or more specifically, though maybe slightly off the mark, what > >are the relations between poetic form, natural proportion and human law, for > >example, that permit the existence of a sort of "screen" or "grate" through > >which we may have intimations of the smell of death, but no actual access to > >the causatively related "killing floor"? When the feeling of "threat" is > >multiplied into an analogical "house of mirrors" (and perhaps of cards), how > >do we identify it, ie., how do we get into the basement over which the > >killing floor is laid? > >S E > > > > > > > > > > > >>From: KENT JOHNSON > >>Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > >>Subject: Purity > >>Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:08:33 -0500 > >> > >>May I indulge in some self-defense, please? > >> > >>Stephen Vincent wrote: > >> > >> >Kent Johnson's righteousness - or at least that tone - about nailing > >> >WCW to an anti-Semitic cross seems to me to indulge an easy > >> >dichotomy. I am not sure if Johnson's trying to throw the Doctor out > >> >with the bath water, but I always get uncomfortable when anyone > >> >(myself included) goes to the Holy ground with an implicit claim of > >> >purity - what ever might be the issue. I would go as far > >> >to say that my opposition to anti-Semitic, anti-Palestinian, racist, > >> >homophobic or any other abusive behavior involves a personal > >> >acknowledgment and desire to exorcise some part of my person that > >> >has inherited or learned those behaviors > >> > >>Stephen, if I point out, as I did, that there is textual evidence of > >>a strong anti-Semitic strain in Williams, why is this > >>"self-righteousness"? I responded to what I felt was a significant > >>blind spot in Billy Little's typically-provocative post, and did so > >>in a reasonable way, I thought. Then there were four indignant > >>responses, all of which strongly denied the applicability of the > >>term, a couple of these calling my post "ridiculous." So I responded, > >>pointing people to some specific evidence, and now am accused by you > >>of being self-righteous, by implication blind to my own likely > >>racism, and of trying to throw WCW "out with the bathwater." > >> > >>I _love_ Williams. If he was more of a prick, more humanly sinful > >>than the canon-makers have let on, that does nothing to diminish the > >>greatness of his poetry. And in some ways the darkness makes > >>the greatness all the more fascinating! The record is the record > >>(which, yes, is open to differing interpretations), and I think it's > >>best to talk about it without the innuendo you interject above. > >>Kent > > > > > >_______________________________________________________________ > >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 17:11:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Pound and the Bollingen Prize In-Reply-To: <19990716182423.12066.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The work is not the man, neither is the prize the work. The prize, as i think you are saying, is a political gesture apart from the work. At 06:24 PM 7/16/99 GMT, you wrote: >Mark, > >Pls see my comments below. > >>Someone suggested that those who had denied Pound the Nobel Prize had >>failed to separate the work from the man. > >Yes, I suggested it. Actually, it was the Bollingen as someone else pointed >out. > >They were in fact remembering >>some of the more disreputable works. > >Hmm. By "disreputable" I assume you mean with anit-semitic or treasonist >content. (?) I followed the controversy fairly closely at the time as I was >embroiled in huge "discussions" about it with my Jewish boyfriend--who, BTW, >was also a poet and claimed to be unable to even read either Pound or Eliot >after their anti-semitism came to light. Their work had been absolutely and >irrevocably contaminated for him. Of course, these awards all have a >political component anyway, so it isn't saying a whole lot that this was a >"political" decision. > >>When Kurt Waldheim, after his UN career, was discovered to have committed >>war crimes there were some who objected to his being elected president of >>Austria--his great post-war service were apparently enough to excuse his >>earlier behavior as far as the Austrian electorate was concerned, but the >>critics felt that some things are unforgiveable and that to honor the >>perpetrator is to diminish the apparent seriousness of what had been done. > >Yes, and I have to agree with those critics re: Waldheim. I mean, being >elected president is quite a bit different from being given a prize for your >writing. And, committing war crimes is also quite a bit different from >making anti-semitic remarks--or even making those boradcasts. > >>Pound wasn't a war criminal, merely a fellow-traveller of war criminals, >>but that's bad enough. > >What about the pro-Mussolini broadcasts? Not a "war criminal" per se, but >pretty actively treasonous. He would certainly have gone to jail if he >weren't pronounced insane. > >To deny him the prize was not so much a judgment on >>the Cantos as a decision not to be seen as forgiving the unforgiveable in >>the context of a Europe where passions like those who had expressed during >>the war were and are very much alive. > > >Exactly the point I'm making. It was **not** a judgement on the work at >all--but, ideally, should have been (in my opinion). I think the work is, >must be, separate from the man (or woman). This is not to say that I find >the behavior trivial. When Eliza Kazan stood and received a "lifetime >acheivement" award at the Oscars this spring, I found it distressing--most >of the people he had harmed were still alive, or at least their families >were. It seemed incredibly disrespectful to them and I was happy to see some >people remain seated, not applauding (e.g. Nick Nolte). But when the >retrospective came on--Streetcar Named Desire, On the Waterfront, etc. all >those incredible films--I was completely moved by the acheivement. I again >came round to the belief that the work is the reality for an artist/writer, >not the life. > >Of course, a lot of the issue is how these prizes are awarded, publicized, >etc., and made to **seem** to the public, to be awarded to the person, not >the work. If Kazan didn't show up, it would have been easier to take. And, >as you rightly point out, an award to Pound would certainly have **seemed** >to be condoning his actions as a man--enough reason to not give it to him. > >Best, >Joan > > > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 17:26:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: What to do with all this Real? In-Reply-To: <199907191735.NAA07089@interlock.randomhouse.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Williams is more than any modern poet the source of my own development as a poet, so I guess I think he's useful. And the boy in the story was my best friend. I don't think either of them were being ironic in expressing their less savory attitudes. At 01:34 PM 7/19/99 -0400, you wrote: >I don't think this is a fair reading of what I wrote. Perhaps, if you'd >like a new angle on this, you can imagine writing a story with your friend >from the Poconos as the protagonist, and when quoting him in the story not >use quotation marks. You, as most of us, would be very frightened to do >this because you would wonder if a reader would think these were words >reflecting your own opinions or personality. But nonetheless this is what >a lot of modernists did, I guess because it was supposed to be an >unmediated representation of objective reality, which in the scientific >spirit of the day was a primary goal. Of course, if you don't think your >friend from the Poconos is worth literary immortality you wouldn't write >the story at all, but then again you wrote this post, so your friend, >racist or not, was somehow useful. > > >Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:16:46 -0700 >From: Mark Weiss >Subject: Re: PS on Williams > >When I was a little kid we used to vacation at a cheap resort in the >Poconos, which were a lot more remote before the construction of I-80 than >it is now. I became close friends with the owner's son who had a black >German Shepherd names Nigger. I don't think he'd ever met a Black person, >but I don't doubt for a minute that he and his family were racists. But >maybe when he called his dog he was feigning a persona. > >At 01:21 PM 7/15/99 -0400, you wrote: >>As a sort of postscipt to my other comments on Williams, I would note that >>the quotes Eliot Weinberger draws from his stories, while being quite >>powerfully derogatory, could be seen to consistently fall within the realm >>of "speaking through the other," i.e. echoings of the local tongue and >>prejudices, and also within my idea of the fetishized ethnicity. My sense >>is that Williams didn't belong to any local community in Rutherford in any >>very easy way -- he felt quite alienated, as we all know -- so a lot of >>what sounds like "plain speech" in Williams can often be seen as not his >>own plain speech, until perhaps the Asphodel poem where it seems all him. >>But that's because we know to whom he is speaking -- i.e. Flossy. But >when >>he writes "He was one of those Jews..." sounding like he's addressing >>someone, but who is this? (If one imagines that he thought his first or >>only readers for such stories would be his sophisticated New York literati >>friends, many of whom were Jewish, how do these lines resonate with them?) >> >>In any case, what would be interesting would be if someone could find the >>kind of invective that one finds in Pound and Cummings and others, or the >>kind of detached "objective" tone in Eliot's writing on Christian culture, >>in Williams -- i.e. something more discursive and outside the realm of >pure >>imagism, something with a sure sense of audience and purpose -- since such >>a thing would point to a more synthesized world-view in Williams that >>presently we can't see. I've never quite figured out whom Williams was >>addressing in Spring and All, for example -- much of which, as I'd written >>to a friend earlier, would sound like the most vicious "flame" on the >>internet -- and I think this vagueness about his audience contributes to >>the choppy, seemingly incomplete nature of his "career," i.e. the ups and >>downs of his work. >> >>Also, can I suggest Marianne Moore as a modernist not motivated by hate or >>exhibited anti-semitism? I'll probably find this wasn't the case. >> >>Brian >> >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 04:26:05 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joan Houlihan Subject: Re: Ezra Pound and the Bollingen Prize for Literature, 1949. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Fascinating. Thanks for sharing this. And to think I was debating about this 30 years ago, and even *that* was 20 years after the fact. Turns out I mis-remembered what actually happened in the first place! Hey, he got it after all. :-) >From: John Tranter >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Ezra Pound and the Bollingen Prize for Literature, 1949. >Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 18:10:23 +1000 > >I thought the List might want to look through this: an excerpt from William >McGuire, Poetry's Catbird Seat (the consultantship in poetry in the English >language at the Library of Congress, 1937-1987), Library of Congress, >Washington, 1988, 512 pages, ISBN 0-8444-0586-8. This (very selective) >excerpt is 1,500 words long . > >============================== > >In 1948 The Bollingen Foundation's trustees voted an allocation of $10,000 >for ten years of literary awards. [ . . . ] (The Foundation's name had been >Mary Mellon's oblique way of honoring C. G. Jung, who had a country retreat >near a Swiss village called Bollingen.) [ . . . ] > >On March 4, 1948, a Library of Congress press release announced the >Bollingen Prize in Poetry. Carrying a purse of $1,000, the prize would be >awarded each February for the best book of verse by an American author >published during the preceding calendar year. The jury of selection would >be composed of the Fellows in American Letters of the Library of Congress. >[ . . . ] > >A final ballot was cast by mail in February (as the 1948 prize would lapse >on February 28): ten first places for Pound [for The Pisan Cantos], two for >[W.C.] Williams, one abstention (Paul Green's)-and the vote of Theodore >Spencer, who had died a few weeks before, was taken to stand as a first >place for Pound, as it was he who had placed the Pisan Cantos in nomination >back in November. [ . . . ] > >The story was broken on Saturday night, the nineteenth, by Charles >Collingwood in his radio news broadcast. The Sunday New York Times headline >was characteristic of the press reaction: "Pound, in Mental Clinic, Wins >Prize for Poetry Penned in Treason Cell." As Evans (Luther H.Evans, the >Librarian of Congress) later observed, "The award possessed that bizarre >quality that makes news. Along with excited reports, indignant editorials >appeared in the press." An editorial in the New York Herald Tribune, >however, stated: "This emphasis on an objective criterion of beauty and >excellence, akin to belief in an objective truth, is fundamental to a free >and rational society. In maintaining it the judges acted in the only way >that is open to men who are sensitive to a later verdict of history." In >the same paper, Louis Untermeyer called the Pisan Cantos "a ragbag and tail >end of Pound at his worst. It shows a very disordered mind, one affected by >the seeds of Fascism," and Robert Hillyer thought the award "regrettable" >for aesthetic rather than political reasons. "I never saw anything to >admire, not one line, in Pound." [ . . . ] Robert Frost, in a memorandum to >his secretary Kay Morrison soon after the award was announced, called it >"an unendurable outrage" and Pound "possibly crazy but more likely >criminal." [ . . . ] > >Huntington Cairns, in his journal, described one of his visits to St. >Elizabeths. "I saw Pound for an hour on Saturday, Feb. 19th. The director >of the hospital had informed him that he had won the Bollingen Prize, and >he was obviously excited by the news. He had prepared a statement for the >Press: 'No comment from the Bug House,' but he had decided not to give it >out. [ . . . ] Walter Winchell quoted Pound's comment on the same >occasion: "Democracy is more stupid than ever I said it was." Tate, >incensed, asked Pound's wife to check on that. "Total lie" was Pound's >answer. He called Winchell a "Jewish bedbug." [. . . ] > >For a time, controversy over the prize subsided. It was suddenly revived >when the Saturday Review of Literature, in its issues of June 11 and 18, >published two long articles by Robert Hillyer - "Treason's Strange Fruit" >and "Poetry's New Priesthood." Hillyer, earlier a professor at Harvard (his >students Howard Nemerov and Robert Fitzgerald remembered him as a gifted >teacher), won the Pulitzer Prize for poetry in 1934, and in 1939 was >president of the Poetry Society of America. [ . . . ] Hillyer was regarded >by many of his literary peers as an isolated figure who had carried on a >long critical campaign against Eliot and Auden, whom he regarded as his >poetic rivals. During the late spring, Evans and Adams had had letters from >Hillyer and from Harrison Smith, the editor of the Review, putting >questions about the award. Hillyer's were marked by a threatening tone, >with insulting references to conspiracy and negligence. The F.B.1. had been >alerted, he said; and an article would be published. [ . . . ] > >In his two articles, Hillyer declared that the Cantos are "the vehicle of >contempt for America, [of] Fascism, anti-Semitism, and . . . ruthless >mockery of our Christian war dead." He implied that the award was part of a >conspiracy against American ways of life and literature, and that the >conspirators included T. S. Eliot, Paul Mellon, Jung, the Bollingen >Foundation, Pantheon Books, most of the Fellows in American Letters, >admirers of Eliot and Pound, the New Criticism, and various literary >quarterlies. Their common aim, he argued, was to seize power in the >literary world and undertake "the mystical and cultural preparation for a >new authoritarianism. . . . In a spiritual morass where language, ethics, >literature, and personal courage melt into something obscure and formless, >a guided impulse has stirred the amorphous haze into something approaching >form, something shaped out of stagnant art by groping Fascism." [ . . . ] > >On June 24, Congressman Jacob K. Javits, of the 21 st District, New York, >wrote Evans: "After having read the editorial 'Treason's Strange Fruit' . . >. I am particularly concerned about the awarding of the Bollingen-Library >of Congress Award of $1,000 to Ezra Pound. I would very much appreciate >your advising me how the Fellows who make this award were chosen, who they >are and the basis of their selection." [ . . . ] On July 19, another >congressman, James T. Patterson, of Connecticut, addressed the House >regarding the award ("Should we encourage the activities in literature of >moral lepers?") and inserted into the Congressional Record the Hillyer >articles, Evans's letter, and the Saturday Review's reply. On the >twenty-first, Javits called for an investigation ("Must we not be equally >diligent to investigate the infiltration of Fascist ideas especially in so >august an institution as the Library of Congress?"), and the matter came >before the Congressional Joint Committee on the Library of Congress, whose >chairman was Senator Theodore F. Green, of Rhode Island. What transpired >was not an investigation but a resolution, on August 19, to the effect that >the Library should abstain from giving prizes or making awards. ("I think >it is a bad policy for the government to give prizes and awards, especially >in matters of taste," the Senator told the press.) Evans immediately >announced compliance. The awards that the Library discontinued, besides the >Bollingen Prize, were the Elizabeth Sprague Coolidge Medal for "eminent >services to chamber music" and three prizes endowed by Lessing Rosenwald in >connection with an annual national exhibition of prints. > >In that same feverish summer of 1949, William Carlos Williams was also the >object of a small cloud of protest, raised by his review of the Pisan >Cantos in the spring issue of Imagi, a very small poetry quarterly >published in Baltimore. During July, Evans received a few letters, all >alike in content, protesting Williams's appointment as Consultant in Poetry >- evidently the result of confusion with his appointment as a Fellow >earlier in the year. Some of the letters came from the editors of other >small verse magazines (in Arkansas, California, etc.), saying for example, >"That [Williams] should defend such a work places him in the same category >with Pound, that of utter contempt and treachery to all the ideals for >which America stands. . . ." [ . . . ] > >After the prize was barred (and $9,000 returned to the donor) the Bollingen >Foundation received a number of requests from universities to carry it on. >In early 1950, the Yale University Library was granted the funds to >continue making the awards. The winner of the 1949 Prize, selected by a >committee whose members - Adams, Aiken, Shapiro, Chapin, Warren - had all >been Fellows in American Letters ]at the Library of Congress], was Wallace >Stevens. [ . . . ] > >In 1963 the amount of the award was increased to $5,000, and thereafter it >was given every other year. After 1968, when the Bollingen Foundation ended >its programs (except for the Bollingen Series, which it gave to Princeton >University Press to carry through its publication), the Andrew W Mellon >Foundation took over, and in 1973 made an outright endowment of $100,000 to >enable the Yale Library to continue awarding the prize in perpetuity. By >now [1988] more than thirty poets, including many of the Consultants, have >received the Bollingen Prize. They keep coming on. > >Cowley to Tate, October 21, 1949: "I went to a literary tea for Nehru. >Present were the editors of the Saturday Review... Harrison Smith saw me >and advanced beaming. 'I was going to write and congratulate you,' he said, >'on the article about Hillyer. I think you had the right dope. Of course, >we just printed the Hillyer articles and the editorial to start a >controversy. It was a great success. We thought it would give us three >exciting issues but it went on for six.' > >============================== > from > John Tranter, 39 Short Street, Balmain NSW 2041, Sydney, Australia > tel (+612) 9555 8502 fax (+612) 9818 8569 > Editor, Jacket magazine: http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/welcome.html > Homepage: five megabytes of glittering literature, free, at > http://www.alm.aust.com/~tranterj/index.html > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 00:24:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Complexity and anti-Semitism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Michael: I'm not sure where you get the notion that Marx ever had such a reductive, binary view of the Self's possibilities. Your quote from Dewey (who was very much his own person, but no enemy, really, of materialism) is actually a nice encapsulation of Marx's general outlook on the human condition, an outlook elaborately laid down early on in _The German Ideology_ --and foreshadowed for the first time in a substantial way (how's this for ironic complexity?) in his "On the Jewish Question," an anti-Semitic essay on the "problem" of Judaism: For Marx, famously, "Consciousness does not determine life, but life determines consciousness." From Marx's standpoint, there are no metaphysical essences or unities involved with the human subject... Correct me, please, if I'm misreading your intent. In any case, there is no desire on anyone's part, so far as I can see, to avoid thinking as "complexly" as you on this Williams issue (look at all the complex and fascinating posts on this thread!). It may be old-fashioned and simplistic, but some of us do honestly feel that there is sometimes certain evidence that resists deconstruction. And the evidence in this case shows that Williams was afflicted with the virus of anti-Semitism (a term you've claimed "says nothing") and coughing rather loudly. Honestly, Michael, it seems to me that you have launched into a "complex" theorization of a problem without first coming to full terms with the problem's existence. And to appeal to the "multifarious and multimotivated" nature of the individual subject (the full, complex, and contradictory flowering of which, by the way, was Marx's vision of the free human being under communism) doesn't really shed that much light on our topic: Pat Robertson is multifarious and multimotivated too, and Dewey would obviously not desire the good name of his pragmatism deployed to obfuscate a particularly pernicious manifestation of that man's multifariousness! Nor would he want it deployed, I'd bet, to water down a particularly noxious manifestation in a master poet like Williams. Kent Michael Magee said: > Lukacs, it seems to me, comes out >of the humanist aspect of Marx and Marxism: the self is ethical and >whole: if not, than it is damaged and unethical (evil). In the >world of continental philosophy of the 30's Heidegger and Lukacs may >have seemed like the operative poles (though the Franfurt folks & I >think particularly Benjamin offer an alternative) - but as regards >Williams, there's John Dewey, there's Kenneth Burke, offering very >important alternatives to a Lukacsian perspective on the self which >stays well away from this issue of the Incognito. Dewey: ">individuality itself is originally a potentiality and is realized >only in interaction with surrounding conditions." This statement >didn't *deter* Dewey from critiquing the unity of the self - it was >in fact the *predicate* by which he understood the self as a >multifarious, multimotivated construction; and through which he >recognized that deciphering the motives behind individual actions >(including speech acts) required the same sort of time and >heightened attention and open-mindedness that an anthropologist (a >good one) brings to the activities of whole communities. So, just >to say, that when I ask for complex thinking on this >WCW/anti-semitism it is from this latter, pragmatic perspective, >though not without knowledge of Lukacsian exasperation. >-m. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 02:36:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: SONNET ENVZ: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII # @@ SONNET ENVZ: EDITOR=(EDITOR) EXINIT=(EXINIT) HISTSIZE=(HISTSIZE) HOME=(HOME) KSH_LICENSE=(KSH_LICENSE) MAIL=(MAIL) MAILCHECK=(MAILCHECK) MANPATH=(MANPATH) PATH=(PATH) SHELL=(SHELL) TERM=(TERM) TMOUT=(TMOUT) USER=(USER) _=(_) mr editor manpath oh path path pant pant pant mr editor oh pant pant shell and trout pant pant pant pant pant trout flies by the shell, male check and man path pant path path oh male is a user his path oh pant pant checked what we got here is a user well well well well well well well well what we got here ? what we got here is a user well well well well well does the user have a license well well well well well does he ? mr editor manpant oh pant pant pant pant he pant pant pant he don't have a license well well well well well _______________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 00:41:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Okay Corrall In-Reply-To: <2E693F8E9FFDD2118CC80008C716505E463A71@mvex01.intuit.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dang! I saw "My Darling Clementine" two or three times when I was a sprat, but havent seen it lately. I think I will go rent it. Did it have titles that were signposts with the names etc burned into the wood? George Bowering. , fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 00:38:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Mused and Beatriced MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I only know the exchange between Gary Sullivan and Nada Gordon through the excerpts printed at East Village Poetry Web. But I've seen enough to wholeheartedly second Chris Stroffolino's very fine appreciation. The work is totally new and idiosyncratic in the greatest of ways. In Sullivan's case (I don't have sound, so can't hear the Gordon videos) it's a bit, as I take it, like Dante on Dexedrine. Or something hard to explain like that. Truly something. Kent ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 06:16:05 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ramez Qureshi Subject: Re: PS on Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/19/99 11:25:12 PM, mmagee@DEPT.ENGLISH.UPENN.EDU writes: << They "embraced this doctrine of the eternal incognito which implies that a man's external deeds are no guide to his motives. In this case [Heidegger's], the deeds obscured behind the mysterious incognito were, needless to say, these intellectuals' participation in Nazism...But if this impenetrable incognito were the true 'condition humaine,' might not - concealed within their incognito - Heidegger or Schmitt have been secret opponents of Hitler all the time, only supporting him in the world of appearances?" >> Dear Michael: I'm not responding on WCW's anti-anything, but am just curious about where you are quoting Lukacs from. ???, Ramez Qureshi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 22:27:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: The Germ no.3 -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Macgregor Card: I look forward to picking up a copy of Germ 3 at the St. Mark's Bookstore (NYC), probably this weekend. I phoned and they have it there already. You also write: >>> We're always looking for submissions . . . Please send work to both addresses I can see what you've written here, literally, but since it's an unusual specification, let me double-check: do you in fact mean (a) send matching copies of work to both Providence and Santa Cruz, or (b) do you mean send one submission to ~either~ address? Thanks. Just want to get it right. Jeffrey Jullich ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 17:03:28 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tisa Bryant Subject: WCW and Black Women Hello all, Way back at the beginning of the thread on William Carlos Williams, before the crochet party, someone stated that Williams was well known for his deep love and respect for Black women. Would someone kindly pull out (of) the current loops and elaborate on that? Thanks! Tisa Bryant ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 13:38:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Complexity and anti-Semitism In-Reply-To: from "KENT JOHNSON" at Jul 20, 99 00:24:05 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kent, your critique of my post below is fair enough - particular with regard to my giving Marx short change; quick notes on vulgar Marxism, though I would still say that Marx, as a teleological thinker, can't possibly accomodate the variety of subject positions that, say, a William James can, for better or worse. Certainly Lukacs has real anxiety regarding any sort of fragmented or multifaceted Self - because it complicates the whole issue of intent (and I wouldn't want to read Lukacs' quote out of its very specific post-WWII context). Anyway, I suppose at this point this is neither here nor there: we're going to disagree a bit about Williams, is the upshot. What I would prefer to look for in Williams are the many, many instances in which his symbolic activity unravels the whole logic of anti-semitism: doing so allows me to 1) bring that anti-semitism to light; 2) suggest methods by which it might be critiqued; and 3) stay in keeping with my own thinking on the issue of Selfhood. That's not so bad a way to approach things, is it? -m. According to KENT JOHNSON: > > Michael: > > I'm not sure where you get the notion that Marx ever had such a > reductive, binary view of the Self's possibilities. Your quote from > Dewey (who was very much his own person, but no enemy, really, of > materialism) is actually a nice encapsulation of Marx's general > outlook on the human condition, an outlook elaborately laid down > early on in _The German Ideology_ --and foreshadowed for the first > time in a substantial way (how's this for ironic complexity?) in his > "On the Jewish Question," an anti-Semitic essay on the "problem" of > Judaism: For Marx, famously, "Consciousness does not determine life, > but life determines consciousness." From Marx's standpoint, there > are no metaphysical essences or unities involved with the human > subject... Correct me, please, if I'm misreading your intent. > > In any case, there is no desire on anyone's part, so far as I can > see, to avoid thinking as "complexly" as you on this Williams > issue (look at all the complex and fascinating posts on this > thread!). It may be old-fashioned and simplistic, but some of us do > honestly feel that there is sometimes certain evidence that resists > deconstruction. And the evidence in this case shows that Williams was > afflicted with the virus of anti-Semitism (a term you've claimed > "says nothing") and coughing rather loudly. Honestly, Michael, it > seems to me that you have launched into a "complex" theorization of a > problem without first coming to full terms with the problem's > existence. And to appeal to the "multifarious and multimotivated" > nature of the individual subject (the full, complex, and > contradictory flowering of which, by the way, was Marx's vision of > the free human being under communism) doesn't really shed that much > light on our topic: Pat Robertson is multifarious and > multimotivated too, and Dewey would obviously not desire the good > name of his pragmatism deployed to obfuscate a particularly > pernicious manifestation of that man's multifariousness! Nor would he > want it deployed, I'd bet, to water down a particularly noxious > manifestation in a master poet like Williams. > > Kent > > Michael Magee said: > > > Lukacs, it seems to me, comes out > >of the humanist aspect of Marx and Marxism: the self is ethical and > >whole: if not, than it is damaged and unethical (evil). In the > >world of continental philosophy of the 30's Heidegger and Lukacs may > >have seemed like the operative poles (though the Franfurt folks & I > >think particularly Benjamin offer an alternative) - but as regards > >Williams, there's John Dewey, there's Kenneth Burke, offering very > >important alternatives to a Lukacsian perspective on the self which > >stays well away from this issue of the Incognito. Dewey: > ">individuality itself is originally a potentiality and is realized > >only in interaction with surrounding conditions." This statement > >didn't *deter* Dewey from critiquing the unity of the self - it was > >in fact the *predicate* by which he understood the self as a > >multifarious, multimotivated construction; and through which he > >recognized that deciphering the motives behind individual actions > >(including speech acts) required the same sort of time and > >heightened attention and open-mindedness that an anthropologist (a > >good one) brings to the activities of whole communities. So, just > >to say, that when I ask for complex thinking on this > >WCW/anti-semitism it is from this latter, pragmatic perspective, > >though not without knowledge of Lukacsian exasperation. > > >-m. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 13:41:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: PS on Williams In-Reply-To: <1c64ec34.24c5a665@aol.com> from "Ramez Qureshi" at Jul 20, 99 06:16:05 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Lukacs is from the 1956 piece, "The Ideology of Modernism," which among other things, contains an interesting reading of Kafka. -m. According to Ramez Qureshi: > > In a message dated 7/19/99 11:25:12 PM, mmagee@DEPT.ENGLISH.UPENN.EDU writes: > > << > They "embraced this doctrine of the eternal incognito which implies that a > man's external deeds are no guide to his motives. In this case > [Heidegger's], the deeds obscured behind the mysterious incognito were, > needless to say, these intellectuals' participation in Nazism...But if > this impenetrable incognito were the true 'condition humaine,' might not - > concealed within their incognito - Heidegger or Schmitt have been secret > opponents of Hitler all the time, only supporting him in the world of > appearances?" >> > > Dear Michael: > I'm not responding on WCW's anti-anything, but am just curious about where you > are quoting Lukacs from. > ???, > Ramez Qureshi > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 13:55:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Pound/Bollingen In-Reply-To: from "Michael W Bibby" at Jul 19, 99 09:26:27 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit According to Michael W Bibby: > > But what I'd like to ask the list members--and I've already asked H-AMSTDY > and AFAM-L about this, with no luck--is if anyone knows of any response to > the Pound debate among African American writers of the period. I'm > familiar with the Pound/Hughes connection (and I've studied the letters > from Ez to Hughes at Beinecke)--but does anyone know what other writers > were saying? Did Wright, Ellison, Dodson, Hayden, Brooks, etc. comment on > this? I couldn't find anything on it in major black periodicals of the > day (*Negro Digest*, *Crisis*, *Phylon*). But am I overlooking something? Michael, I'm guessing that Ellison would have said, sure, give it to him - though I've never come across a specific staement on his part, I know he dug at least the early Cantos and ABC of Reading. There's a fascinating exchange in his 1977 interview w/ Ishmael Reed, Quincy Troupe & Steve Canon (which incidentally, contains some discussion of anti-semitism, with Ellison deftly reminding the younger guys of "those contributions to civil rights and cultural improvement through which Jews play an important and liberating role") where Pound comes up in a discussion of Melvin Tolson. I don't have time to quote it in full but it basically involves Ellison describing meeting Tolson when he was in High School, his subsequent friendship with him, and their discussions about Pound and Eliot. It's in CONVERSATIONS WITH RALPH ELLISON (Jackson: UP of Miss., 1995), p. 370. -m. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 14:48:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lowther,John" Subject: Junkyard Poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain last night at the weekly APG meeting Mark Prejsnar said something very close to this (my apologies if i've inadvertently misquoted); "poetry is the use of language that always extends outside the margins of whatever can be explained by theory....you see after years of doing poetry and poetics i've discovered that i'm much better at poetry than poetics and so this is a definition that sort of justifies that... and i really sort of believe that too... you know i was listening in my walkperson to some poems i'd recorded of Ray di Palma's and Coolidge and some other folks and what they were doing seems to bubble up past... to exceed the boundaries of any one explanation---and that's what makes it good poetry... that's why you want to read it again and again." that thinking about it today i'm going in multiple directions on the one hand i completely agree with what mark says here which i might rephrase as ~great poetry cannot be compassed in an explanation~ but in my other hand there is a dispute as for me this quote of mark's makes assumptions about the nature of theory that i don't really share (while i do recognize that for most folks the word denotes what almost amounts to a genre-unto-itself, a game even, in which the theorist deploys terminology upon a text in an effort to show both how perceptive they are and how the text "does not know itself" but is instead a site wherein forces that sport within the superstructure conspire and clash, controlling and dictating what is and is not inscribed therein - for the most part yawningly) instead (as i've tried to say here in the past) i see most everything we do as the consequences of theory whether of the unconsidered or considered variety so around comes my third hand where i have the following idea that rather than us being able state either proposition > that poetry exceeds theory, or > that theory exceeds poetry to the exclusion of the other that they have to both be true and so digging back in this regress (three hands makes it go quicker) we move back from the poem to the theory(s) that it slips out of the grasp of but which also allowed for the toeholds on which it ascended and this strata of theory must be seen to have evolved out of consideration of other things (poems, for the purposes of this riff) which in turn exceeded their theoretic wombs and on and on and ( . . . ) at some point it seems that the two converge - that the making, the poesis, is the making of both poems and theories further i wonder if this isn't still the case if poetry isn't always embodied theory (or poetics) if it isn't we who've ignored that to the extent that we've let the word ~theory~ become synonymous with a very delimited and extraneous mode of totalizing discourse alas, sad glad Theroy Brown ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 17:53:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Shoemaker Subject: WCW's map of pleasure & pain In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII For anyone who's interested, here's an excerpt from my dissertation on the Objectivists (University of Virginia, 1997) which may speak to some of the questions that have been raised in relation to Williams lately. The point I would want to make, again, is that even, or rather especially, when we are looking at a phenomenon as disturbing and oppressive and destructive as the twentieth century's horrifying legacy of anti-Semitism, it's important to make distinctions. And when we're looking back at a particular historical moment, it's important to recognize the distinctions that were made at the time, the one's that constitute that moment's historical complexity. Thus, when I used the term "complexity" in relation to Williams, I had in mind not some "multifariousness" of the self that would absolve one (i.e. Williams) from being held accountable for one's actions and beliefs, but rather the complexity constituted by Williams's specific historical and personal situation. A situation that includes, as others have pointed out, William's own ethnic background, his particular life experience (as, for example, doctor to the immigrant poor), and what we might call Williams's own "map of culture. It's my view that Williams *is* concerned with this sort of mapping, and I think the key text is probably *In the American Grain*, though there's much to be gleaned from the poetry too. The excerpt below starts with a reference to Williams's "Elsie" poem, then briefly discusses IAG and WCW's cultural vision, then moves on to Williams's angry attack on Pound, written in the early forties. As I try to show, it seems to me that two fundamentally different views of culture (i.e. Pound's and Williams's) are coming into conflict here. The full citation for Williams's important but little-known essay on Pound is "Ezra Pound: Lord Ga-Ga!" *Decision* (1941): 16-23. ------------- The poem's central figure, Elsie, "reared by the state" and "sent out at fifteen" to work for "some doctor's family" (presumably Williams's), is able to lay ironical claim to the title "pure product of America" precisely because of the "dash of Indian blood" that contributes to her mixed pedigree. In Williams's theory of American culture, which is in direct conflict with Pound's cultural ideal, miscegenation is the American version of purity. The "ungainly" and tormented Elsie "express[es] with broken / brain the truth about us" (107). In keeping with this view, James Clifford reads this poem and its central figure, Elsie, as emblematic of the "ethnographic modernity" characterizing twentieth-century culture. As Clifford observes, Williams is writing from a stance "off center among scattered traditions," as he is compelled to occupy a "truly global space of cultural connections and dissolutions" (4). But Williams also identifies the resistance to Elsie's "truth" as central to American culture. By the time An "Objectivists" Anthology was published, Williams had already elaborated this point at some length in the poetic prose of In the American Grain (1925), which, like the poems before us now, conducts an examination of American culture, often based on a writing through of the documents of American history. In the American Grain develops a view of American culture that values efforts toward "contact," while criticizing the culture's pervasive fear of the immediacy of "touch." This fear of touch, in Williams's analysis, is closely related to fear of the ethnic "other": "Do not serve another for you might have to TOUCH him and he might be a JEW or a NIGGER" (177). Further, it is especially tied to the fear of miscegenation: Do you realize the fascination of the white woman who had twin nigger babies has for us? They accused the woman of having had intercourse with the apartment's colored elevator boy. Her husband abandoned her at once, of course,--charming man. But you know Mendel's law; they discovered there had been a darky in his family six generations before! Be careful whom you marry! Be careful for you can NEVER know. (177) In Williams's reading, Mendel's law of genetics is something like a law of American culture. It will do no good to deny our hybrid nature as Americans because, in time, even our most "recessive" traits will out, our deepest cultural secrets be revealed. History, then, must acknowledge the importance of cross-cultural contacts: "History must stay open, it is all humanity" (189). The problem with conventional history, according to Williams, is that it "follows governments and never men," "portray[ing] us in generic patterns, like effigies or patterns on sarcophagi" (188). In contrast to Pound's "great man" theory of history, Williams's emphasis on the individual is as likely to figure forth an Elsie as a John Adams. Like Reznikoff's, Williams's revisionist histories would be written from the ground up. In An "Objectivists" Anthology, these "grounded" histories serve, through the mechanisms of ideogrammic juxtaposition, as critiques of Pound's approach to history and culture. Indeed, Williams's criticism of history would have as an offshoot a related critique of Poundian aesthetics, and politics, that is directly relevant to our concerns here. This critique took shape over a period of decades, but didn't receive full expression until 1941, when Williams was outraged to find that he had been mentioned by Pound during one of his radio broadcasts from fascist Italy. Williams's response took the form of an essay entitled "Ezra Pound: Lord Ga-Ga!" in which Williams argued that during his exile in Italy Pound's foolish tendencies had undergone "an apotheosis at the hands of a bigger fool than he," i.e. Mussolini (16). Pound was now "a case for the psychiatrists," but his insanity was "the result of deficiencies, long apparent to his friends, that have finally overthrown him" (16). Williams's diagnosis delves far back into Pound's character and behavior, drawing on theories Williams had been formulating for some time. He begins by applying his own "touch" thesis from In the American Grain. "I have often observed that in certain sensory areas," Williams writes, "Ezra Pound completely lacks perceptivity" (17). In Williams's reading, Pound is a kind of child prodigy, a "spoiled brat" like "all those bright boys and girls who enter college at the age of twelve and . . . go mad soon after reaching puberty." Outside their field of specialty, Williams claims, such geniuses tend to "go astray," and to "fall back on authority" (17). Pound is indeed a "great poet," "one of the most gifted the New World has produced," but "his great force came from the narrow restrictions of his mind--giving it impact, but, alas, at what a cost" (17). For Williams, "All Pound's perceptions are literary and if taken as such have their value"; but again, there is a corresponding, and overwhelming, deficiency: "What he lacked was a knowledge of man, plain and simple" (20). In his desire for a system of "rule by the few" (20), Pound, . . . has never had any love for or understanding of the people themselves, the great leaven of the world without whose tonal tides to support them all men become tyrants and beasts in the end. Ezra had no inkling of such matters, the starved and the defeated, nothing but complete contempt for them. He merely wanted to replace the lying, thieving rule by his own 'enlightened' one . . . (21) Williams is writing, in 1941, out of a direct concern with the danger of fascism, the danger that "all men [might] become tyrants and beasts in the end." The specific object of his critique at this point is Pound, the man, but before long this analysis brings Williams to a remarkable meditation on the opening of Canto XXX, which has already concerned us here. The Canto is introduced as Williams moves from discussing Pound's generalized contempt for "the people" to examining his enmity for specific ethnic groups, particularly the Jews. At this moment, Williams introduces Pound's "Compleynt," just as Zukofsky had presented it for consideration nine years before in the pages of An "Objectivists" Anthology. "Pound," Williams observes, "has written some of the loveliest verse of our century of which not any has more haunting beauty than the opening lines of Canto XXX" (22). Here Williams quotes the opening of the "Compleynt," drawing particular attention to the lines "Nothing is now clean slayne / But rotteth away." Williams observes: "It is a fascinating theme and a magnificent poem representing, I think, Pound's main philosophic tenet" (22). This tenet, in Williams's summary, runs: "Keep what is 'good,' keep what is lovely. Let all that is ugly be clean slain". Since much of the "world today" is "sloppy and mushy in its very essence," it must be "clean slain, slain--done away with, killed, slaughtered as were the Spanish rebels." This slaughter is an act that would, for Pound, be "about of the same nature as the drainage of an obscure swamp in Africa or the Amazon" (22). Again, the allusion is to Mussolini's swamp-draining exploits, as well as to fascist Italy's role in the bombing of Spanish rebels during the Spanish Civil War. Williams has no difficulty making a direct link between Pound's "Compleynt" against Pity and real-world acts of political violence. He attends to the formal beauties of the poem-as-object, but reads it also in relation to "the dialectical necessities of its day" ("The New Poetical Economy" 269).1 The conclusion to which Williams is brought by this dialectical reading is that Pound's plaint expresses nothing less than the desire to "kill all democracy" (22). As the essay continues, it becomes clear that Pound's "Compleynt" is an important crux for Williams, that he has read the poem many times, and meditated on it over a period of years. He sees the poem as a kind of key to the dilemma of "how to read" Pound which has continued to perplex so many literary critics. Williams wonders whether the poem's "secret" is perhaps "a pleasure and a pain equally balanced which we cannot resolve" (23). "[T]he beauty of the poem is death," Williams concludes, and what is at stake is "the body of humanity . . . in all its multiplicity and obscurity . . ." (23). For Williams, the resolution of Pound's dilemma requires "perceptions of which [Pound] is largely incapable, humilities which he cannot know" (23). Williams's critique of Pound, and his poem, involves a fundamentally political reading that circles back to Williams's criticism of conventional history and the inter-ethnic fear haunting American culture. As Brian Bremen has argued, Williams's approach to history develops an aesthetic insisting on "the continuation and development of struggles for mutual recognition" (198). Or as Williams put it in In the American Grain, the crucial insight--with the "body of humanity" hanging in the balance--is that "We are, too, the others" (41). ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 13:19:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Julie Johnson Subject: Re: Mused and Beatriced MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are more excerpts from the exchange between Gary & Nada in the first issue of Duration online http://members.xoom.com/Duration/durationmag.html -----Original Message----- From: KENT JOHNSON To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 9:50 AM Subject: Mused and Beatriced I only know the exchange between Gary Sullivan and Nada Gordon through the excerpts printed at East Village Poetry Web. But I've seen enough to wholeheartedly second Chris Stroffolino's very fine appreciation. The work is totally new and idiosyncratic in the greatest of ways. In Sullivan's case (I don't have sound, so can't hear the Gordon videos) it's a bit, as I take it, like Dante on Dexedrine. Or something hard to explain like that. Truly something. Kent ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 15:15:22 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Ellis Subject: Re: Manifest Destiny Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mark, I first heard of the Washington/Hebrew/American national language thing from an Israeli; we were both standing in the shadows of the largest free-standing statue of Elvis Presley in the world, just west of the suburbs of Jerusalem. Subsequently I heard the same bit several times more, both in Israel and across the river, in Jordan; quoting it seemed most to be an attempt on the part of various opinion-holders to ground the legitimacy of Israel as a sanctioned state in the previous preference of a person of stature (what DID Elvis stand on Israel anyway?). Now I see viz Hilton's recent post that the Washington version may be some sort of rough metonym for the more detailed report Hilton DOES supply, luckily for me, since I was rather stuck on your comment re: Washington's being a Deist, as if that made some difference in the both larger yet still local (& locateable) "millennarian &/or escahtological imperialist" scenario. & I do recognize that the American "Revolution" wasn't just slugging it out over a pot of molasses and a glass of Jamaican rum. & no, I'm not "saying that everything is the same and no differentiation is possible." I'm saying that SAYING THAT "everything is the same and no differentiation is possible" is very much the matter of state & media sanctioned "plurality" in which nothing is "the same" because it's all plural (sounds like some kind of semantic problem to me), ie., "the same". Look at what's called the Global Economy - what IS it? Or more essentially, who's it FOR? It seems an essential question, especially in light of the contest this List also takes part in, ie., what the new riddles are, who will fix them, what the fix IS, how one may get in and/or out of them. Ugly politics are still what poets have to operate in, if not "out of". If good art permits of ugly politics, how good is it? If poetry is thought to be some kind of all-encompassing cross-weaving of the subjects and objects of THIS world, yet disavows it for the referentially pointed and possibly parallel THAT one, how does one keep the "stretch" of it "clean"? Via some sort of critical yet perpetually generous "spirit"? & who's to the good for it? Ie., where's the community? Is it limited to the ardent hearers of this, and LIKE, "lists"? Anyway, thanks for your substantial additions/corrections, Hilton, if you're there; I look forward to your book. - S E >From: Mark Weiss >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Manifest Destiny >Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:50:16 -0700 > >I hesitate to respond to this. Are you saying that everything is the same >and no differentiation is possible? > >Your interpretation of the American Revolution seems rather simplistic, but >let that go. I'd love to see some documentation of Washington's thinking >about making Hebrew the national language--it's new to me. And as to his >interest in the Book of Revelations--I thought he was a deist. > >At 06:56 AM 7/16/99 PDT, you wrote: > >The "field" of racism re: Williams, Pound & Eliot extends beyond the >bounds > >of a specific anti-semitism; ancient cultic law is not based on >tolerance. > >Not to be overly "Hebraic" about it, the fact remains that the murder of > >former Israeli Prime Minister Rabin had, in some interpretations, >rabbinical > >sanction. Semitic law in general gives sanction for murder, if evidence > >exists - and suspicion is often thought sufficient evidence - that a >person > >presents a threat to the security of the clan at large. We still operate > >under a similar system, as a glance at who's who on any Death Row will >tell > >you. Enemies of the State. America wasn't founded to protect the >interests > >of any sense of the common man or to the common good; it was founded to > >protect the interests of a wealthy group of molasses bootleggers >operating > >out of the Carribbean. Interesting in this light to recall that >Washington > >initially considered making Hebrew the national language, probably having >to > >do with aligning America with the moral authority represented by the rise >of > >"Israel" at the end of the world in the Book of Revelations. Nineteenth > >century Manifest Destiny is a pure product of nothing but. In fact, the > >genetic/hereditary science of Eugenics was a 19th century American > >invention, and the Sterilization Laws passed in 1907 by the State of >Indiana > >"to prevent procreation of confirmed criminals, idiots, imbeciles and > >rapists" was the prototype for Nazi-funded scientific missions to find > >"reason" for persecution of Jews. WCW, Pound, Eliot & Co. - "us all" too >- > >are the inheritors of this tradition. Given this, the accusation that >these > >guys were "anti-semitic" seems trite; the more essential question lies in > >the extent to which they - or any of us - gave (or in our case, continue >to > >give) sanction to state-infected suppositions toward "liberation." >Calling > >WCW anti-semitic merely sweetens the lie that we in fact DO have the >moral > >authority to "call him down," but what phantom will rise from the process >of > >so doing? Or more specifically, though maybe slightly off the mark, what > >are the relations between poetic form, natural proportion and human law, >for > >example, that permit the existence of a sort of "screen" or "grate" >through > >which we may have intimations of the smell of death, but no actual access >to > >the causatively related "killing floor"? When the feeling of "threat" is > >multiplied into an analogical "house of mirrors" (and perhaps of cards), >how > >do we identify it, ie., how do we get into the basement over which the > >killing floor is laid? > >S E > > > > > > > > > > > >>From: KENT JOHNSON > >>Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > > >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > >>Subject: Purity > >>Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:08:33 -0500 > >> > >>May I indulge in some self-defense, please? > >> > >>Stephen Vincent wrote: > >> > >> >Kent Johnson's righteousness - or at least that tone - about nailing > >> >WCW to an anti-Semitic cross seems to me to indulge an easy > >> >dichotomy. I am not sure if Johnson's trying to throw the Doctor out > >> >with the bath water, but I always get uncomfortable when anyone > >> >(myself included) goes to the Holy ground with an implicit claim of > >> >purity - what ever might be the issue. I would go as far > >> >to say that my opposition to anti-Semitic, anti-Palestinian, racist, > >> >homophobic or any other abusive behavior involves a personal > >> >acknowledgment and desire to exorcise some part of my person that > >> >has inherited or learned those behaviors > >> > >>Stephen, if I point out, as I did, that there is textual evidence of > >>a strong anti-Semitic strain in Williams, why is this > >>"self-righteousness"? I responded to what I felt was a significant > >>blind spot in Billy Little's typically-provocative post, and did so > >>in a reasonable way, I thought. Then there were four indignant > >>responses, all of which strongly denied the applicability of the > >>term, a couple of these calling my post "ridiculous." So I responded, > >>pointing people to some specific evidence, and now am accused by you > >>of being self-righteous, by implication blind to my own likely > >>racism, and of trying to throw WCW "out with the bathwater." > >> > >>I _love_ Williams. If he was more of a prick, more humanly sinful > >>than the canon-makers have let on, that does nothing to diminish the > >>greatness of his poetry. And in some ways the darkness makes > >>the greatness all the more fascinating! The record is the record > >>(which, yes, is open to differing interpretations), and I think it's > >>best to talk about it without the innuendo you interject above. > >>Kent > > > > > >_______________________________________________________________ > >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > > > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 17:29:24 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Subject: Re: cattle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When Peter Balestieri advises that it's a bonus to hear Linda Darnell sing: In gambling halls laying, 10,000 cattle straying. It reminds me to draw attention to the song (recorded by Peggy Lee with Benny Goodman's band) in which she sings: I am as gay as a Disney cow. Anyone remember that one? Tony Green ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:08:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Poets on Verge of Breakdown MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The deadline for submissions is July 31, but the statement struck me as extremely interesting, even entertaining, so thought I would forward. Susan Howe mentioned here, John Tranter and Jacket, the "illegibility" of "American excess," etc. Kent ---------------------------------------------- A N G E L A K I journal of the theoretical humanities Special Issue 5.1 (for publication march/april 2000) POETS ON THE VERGE OF A NERVOUS BREAKDOWN ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Edited by Anthony Mellors & Robert Smith The deconstruction of nostalgia for transcendent identity is crucial to international poetry working out from modernism. If, for example, the work of Andrea Zanzotto, Allen Fisher, and Susan Howe centres on locations saturated with national myths (the Veneto, London, New England), this is not in order to romanticize the poet's identity with the place or to envision universal truths from a local microcosm. Rather, each of these poets takes the immediate environment as a place crossed by divergent histories, perceptions, and ecologies which are traced as partial evidence, inviting readers both to attend to the difficulties of the text and to pursue their own lines of inquiry. Even in the case of Zanzotto's psychoanalysis of pastoral identity, no subject-position is evoked which remains unquestionable. However, although this kind of poetry has a wide and dedicated audience, it is far removed from what most readers and literary critics today regard as the appropriate form of contemporary verse. Late modernism is post-modern in the sense that Lyotard makes of the term: a critical reworking of the procedures of modernism. But postmodernism has acquired another meaning, which has gained general currency: the outright rejection of modernism as being idealist, elitist, reactionary, inaccessible, and irrelevant. If postmodernism means the breakdown of distinctions between high and low forms of culture, late modernism's formal difficulty puts it squarely in the high culture camp. Post-modernist poetry, on the other hand, turns away from avant-garde experimentation. Instead, it reestablishes the lyric voice, either through ironic parables of the self or as the expression of multicultural identities. It endorses the local, the particular, even the provincial, as the representation of vital if marginalized communities, and it does so without the modernists' desire to sublate the regional into a unified humanist locus. Value is placed on the lucidity and directness with which the poet communicates, allowing readers to identify with representations of their own community or to empathize with others. Poetry is a means - one among many - by which local identities protect themselves from the homogenizing power of the culture industry. In this light, poetry which suspends identification looks as if it has never managed to break free from the Coleridgean belief in a clerisy of readers only able to grapple with the dialectics of the text because highly attuned to the history and theory of poetic forms. In a world where marginalized voices are fighting for recognition, late modernism stands accused of evading its democratic responsibilities. Far from inspiring readers to engage with questions of identity and difference, these barely legible texts could be said to encourage resignation and indifference in anyone except those who are well educated and already disposed towards the 'difficult matter' of modern art. In contrast, postmodern poetry claims humanist inclusivity without the rhetoric of aesthetic unity. It aspires to what Simon Armitage and Robert Crawford call in their recent Penguin anthology 'the democratic voice'. This new poetic democracy is not without its theoretical and institutional problems. Postmodernism argues for the irreducibility of experience, its essential difference from community to community. Yet in this context it requires that all experience be rendered in an identifiable form. In Britain, for example, poetic legitimacy is associated with a deeply ingrained suspicion of 'foreign' influences, so that even where regionalism is valued it tends to be invoked as a populist defence against European experimentalism and American excess. And it is not always clear whether a poet's work is given as regional or radically marginal because it engages with the linguistic and political pressures of non-centralized identity, or simply because the poet has a tenuous association with a marginal site. In _Devolving English Literature_, Robert Crawford wants to affirm the virtues of 'provincial' writing against what he sees as a dominant and exclusive metropolitan culture; yet his preferred exponents of regional identity tend to be poets who, although having Welsh, Irish, or Scottish family origins, are granted cultural legitimacy by conforming to the only poetic 'voice' acceptable to metropolitan publishing houses such as Faber: an ironic lyric style relatively untroubled by the translatability of language or personal experience and endorsing aptness of metaphor as the fundamental mark of poetic value. Crawford's provincial/metropolitan opposition is itself bogus in that it elides the problem of complicity: the notion of the provincial is an invention of the metropolitan bourgeoisie, and its use calls into question Crawford's ability to analyze the politics of poetry beyond a centralist point of view. The position here is both metropolitan and imperialist in that 'provincials' become the subjects of sentimental regard as long as they communicate in the accepted terms; otherwise, they are ignored or denounced. The marginal is invited into the mainstream or preserved as marginal value by the mainstream only when it gives up its attachment to difference. For late modernists, on the other hand, difference cannot be translated, only approximated. The poem is a construction which makes the reader aware that every translation is an appropriation. It could be argued, however, that the implied reader of this poetry is just as 'metropolitan' as Crawford's democrat. But, while the two positions are not as clear cut as our description suggests, they do represent fundamentally opposed views of poetry's function in modern society. For what we are calling late modernism, poetry can only become a radical force by resisting consumer culture and its appeal to the 'short attention span' of its audience; for postmodernism, poetry can only prevent itself from being marginalized or completely ignored by competing with more marketable forms of cultural production. While the former continues to be reviled by the mainstream publishing houses and literary organs as too rarefied to be of popular interest, the latter is itself beginning to fall foul of market pressures. The current hoo-haa over Oxford University Press's axing of its poetry list shows that the mainstream is somewhat more marginal than its proponents have imagined. Even so, poetry is flourishing as never before through public readings, small publishers and magazines, and via the Internet. Although these networks might be said merely to affirm poetry's marginalized status in an era of global markets, they nevertheless lay claim to the cultural value of independent means of production. (A modern irony being that small-press material has frequently out- sold 'major' publications.) And, if these networks originate from local or marginal groupings, they are anything but narrow in their reach. They have inaugurated a new internationalism in poetry which goes some way to confound the old coteries and critical demarcations. The use of new technology has revitalized traditional media by lowering production costs and has created alternative forms of distribution. Australia, for example, has become a new poetic centre. Through magazines such as John Kinsella's _Salt_, James Taylor's _Boxkite_, and (on the Internet) John Tranter's _Jacket_, it has increased international recognition for Australian writing while creating strong links with poets in France, Britain and the United States. The aim of this issue of _Angelaki_ is to collect a wide range of critical essays addressing the current state of international poetry. We invite contributions addressing the general questions raised above, and we hope to encourage debate about the history and ideology of modern poetic forms and institutions. Far from being taken as read (which is unlikely considering the partisan nature of the subject), the remarks made here should be seen as the springboard for argument and clearer definition. The issue will also include new poetry. * * * Submission Information ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _Angelaki_ is a peer-reviewed journal. FINAL MATERIAL (full essays) for peer review by JULY 31, 1999. Essays must be sent in duplicate (double-spaced, paginated) to: Address: Dr Anthony Mellors 59 Orchard Drive Durham DH1 1LA UNITED KINGDOM * * * About ANGELAKI ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _Angelaki: journal of the theoretical humanities_ is a print journal published three times a year by Carfax Publishing Limited. The journal publishes two theme issues and one general issue per volume. ISSN: 0969-725X. _Angelaki_ was selected Best New Journal in the 1996 Council of Editors of Learned Journals Awards. For further details of the journal and contents listings please visit: http://www.carfax.co.uk/ang-ad.htm "Since its inception in 1993, the journal _Angelaki_ has established itself as a leading forum of theoretical reflection, providing a practical refutation of all those who would celebrate 'the end of theory.' Whether it is focused on thematic issues of the most varied nature, introducing thinkers to English-language readers, or treating a variety of problems in open issues, _Angelaki_ challenges the complacency of the self-evident. Required reading for the next millennium." Samuel Weber Gerard Greenway greenway@angelaki.demon.co.uk managing editor A N G E L A K I journal of the theoretical humanities Taylor & Francis, Carfax http://www.carfax.co.uk/ang-ad.htm 44 Abbey Road Oxford OX2 0AE United Kingdom Fax: +44 (0)1865 791372 Email: URL: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:00:37 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: pete spence Subject: Re: Hannah Weiner's COUNTRY GIRL and sundry items Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > >the last notification of Hanna's WRITTEN IN/THE ZERO ONE had about 30 >people >interested e-mailing me for information on how to get!! seems in the end >only 2 could overcome the information and actually order!! there are still >60 copies for sale!! > >also i have ready Hannah's COUNTRY GIRL the second of four early journals >and written in 1971 > >you can now order this book from LOOK!! POETRY!! > >by sending $5 U.S. cash to: > >pete spence >40 bramwell st >ocean grove >3226 >victoria australia > >airmail your letter otherwise it will take about three months!! >i will airmail you back the book. > >if you want both WRITTEN IN/THE ZERO ONE and COUNTRY GIRL then $10 U.S cash >will see it done >HISTORY of: COUNTRY GIRL was to come out through POST NEO PUBLICATIONS in 89/90 but was shelved along with a lot of other things (burn out???) i'd a lot of trouble with the person typesetting the book who kept adding their own comments into the ms wyche caused some embarrasments re Hannah doing checks on the setting in the end Norma Pearse who i have lived with these past 16 years set it and Hannah ok the setting. i'm releasing it now under the imprint LOOK!! POETRY!! wyche normally published books of visual poetry, the book is now available for order (see above)and will be made to order rather than printed in a long print run. pete spence a couple of other POST NEO titles that i have some copies of are: KARL KEMPTON's 4plus3 ,,$5 US cash. BERNI JANNSEN's EXTATIC $5 US cash. Berni is the Lyn Hejinian of Australia. also in January of this year i published Cornelis Vleeskens' translation of Jan G Elburg's THROUGH THE EYE OF THE SCISSORS the back cover reads: jan g elburg's scissors produced this text sometime in the 60's 7 it was published in the 2nd ed of PRAATJES KIJKEN by Meulenhoff in 1974 Cornelis Vleeskens did this translation in 1990 7 Raimondo Cortese set it set it for pete spence at the time we've played with it over the years and it is now finally printed in 1999. published by LOOK!! POETRY!! TYPOGRAPHIC POETRY. THANKS pete spence ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 20:03:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Julie Johnson Subject: addresses needed... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am currently in the process of transcribing essays from the anthology _Code of Signals_ which I will eventually post as part of an out of print book archive at Duration Press's website, & need to get in touch with many of the authors whose work appeared in that anthology. If anyone has e-mail addresses for any of the following people, I would greatly appreciate it if you could pass them along to me... Bernadette Mayer, Charles Stein, Michael Davidson, James Clifford, William Corbett, David Shapiro, Lori Chamberlin, Gerrit Lansing, Dennis Barone, Christopher Gaynor, Diane Ward, Madeline Burnside, Steve McCaffery, Geoffrey Young, & John Ashbery. Thanks much in advance, Jerrold ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 00:21:35 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Cope Subject: Germ Addresses Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I was asked to let all know (per the confusion) that GERM submissions should be sent to _both_ (simultaneously) of the following addresses: Macgregor Card POBox 2543 Providence, RI 02906 Andrew Maxwell POBox 8501 Santa Cruz, Ca. 95061 It's a bi-coastal operation... Best, Stephen Cope ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 08:07:40 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: query In-Reply-To: <1e27c21b.24c48b52@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" can anyone help me find the Coach House Press book order website? i need to order a martyrology for my fall course. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:30:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Stefans Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Mark, Not to drag this on, but it seems to me this story is unrelated to what the context of my ideas were earlier. I'm don't see how the naming of a dog, and the eventual calling by its name and what light this sheds on the moral make-up of a family, has anything to do with sitting down and writing a short story, a modernist one no less, which involves a plethora of aesthetic and strategic issues that are simply overshadowed by this connection -- why reduce? I think just dumping a discussion of Williams into this anecdote is too easy, besides being poorly thought through (more important than the names of philosophers would be a clear goal and consistency in thought, especially in such a thorny realm -- and what makes you think I would have been better treated than that family, which you hold before me as an example of my ignorance?). I am certainly not an apologist for Williams -- he's much better messy and flawed, but you seem to imply this by your last sentence, with has a certain acidic tenor which I deemed "unfair," and still do because you used sentiment to guide an opinion regardless of the content of my post and those it was responding to. Consequently, I don't know what your jibe on "feigning a persona" has to do with what I wrote since I didn't write about personae, nor about "feigning" one (which is kind of impossible, people usually "adopt" a persona, or "feign" a personality -- "feigning a persona" would put you two steps behind the surface). I was talking about words and sentences, the "many origins" to misquote Olson, and not "irony" (there's a bit of negative capability thrown in there also, I guess). Anyway, I'll happily retire from this one. Just wanted to clear that up -- it's implicit in the previous post, I think. Yours, Brian >I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Williams is more than any >modern poet the source of my own development as a poet, so I guess I think >he's useful. And the boy in the story was my best friend. I don't think >either of them were being ironic in expressing their less savory attitudes. At 01:34 PM 7/19/99 -0400, you wrote: >I don't think this is a fair reading of what I wrote. Perhaps, if you'd >like a new angle on this, you can imagine writing a story with your friend >from the Poconos as the protagonist, and when quoting him in the story not >use quotation marks. You, as most of us, would be very frightened to do >this because you would wonder if a reader would think these were words >reflecting your own opinions or personality. But nonetheless this is what >a lot of modernists did, I guess because it was supposed to be an >unmediated representation of objective reality, which in the scientific >spirit of the day was a primary goal. Of course, if you don't think your >friend from the Poconos is worth literary immortality you wouldn't write >the story at all, but then again you wrote this post, so your friend, >racist or not, was somehow useful. > > >Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:16:46 -0700 >From: Mark Weiss >Subject: Re: PS on Williams > >When I was a little kid we used to vacation at a cheap resort in the >Poconos, which were a lot more remote before the construction of I-80 than >it is now. I became close friends with the owner's son who had a black >German Shepherd names Nigger. I don't think he'd ever met a Black person, >but I don't doubt for a minute that he and his family were racists. But >maybe when he called his dog he was feigning a persona. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 10:21:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Stefans Subject: Correction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mark -- I meant "by that family" rather than "than that family" in my other post today. -- Brian ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:30:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eugene Ostashevsky Subject: ABIE & EUGENE IN SAN JOSE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" FRIDAY, 23 JULY ABIE HADJITARKHANI & EUGENE OSTASHEVSKY ARE FEATURED READERS AT BAKATALK, a weekly open mic IN SAN JOSE BALKATALK is held at Channel One - 763 the Alameda (near Stockton) - 408. 280. 1001 - http://www.ch001.com all shows begin at 8pm. all shows begin with an open mic and end with the featured reader(s). from sf: take 280 south - exit at 87 (guadalupe expressway) north(?) [stick to the left] - exit at santa clara - turn left onto santa clara/the alameda - channel one is 763 the alameda on your right past the san jose arena. 9X9X9X9X9X9X9X9X9X9X9X9X9X9X9X9X9X9X9X9X9X9X9 9X9 INDUSTRIES http://www.paraffin.org/nine/ nine@paraffin.org NINE MUSES NINE HEAVENLY SPHERES NINE ORDERS OF ANGELS NINE NAMES OF GOD AND AUGUSTINE AND A PEAR TREE ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 15:42:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chicago Review Subject: New Chicago Review Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The Latest Issue of CHICAGO REVIEW (45:2) will be in stores soon. Contents include A Special Section on ROBERT DUNCAN --Excerpts from Lisa Jarnot's Biography of Duncan --Duncan's Introductions to Readings at San Francisco State --Never-Before Published Photographs POETRY by --John Matthias --Ed Dorn --Jeff Clark --Arthur Sze --Elizabeth Willis --Robert Adamson --Claire Malroux --Allen Grossman As well as essays and reviews on Anne Carson, Recent British Poetry, Michael Anania, Tom Raworth, and Elizabeth Arnold. SPECIAL SUBSCRIPTION RATE: 15 dollars for one year. TO ORDER: Send us an e-mail indicating that you want to subscribe; we will send you a bill with the current issue. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Chicago Review The University of Chicago 5801 South Kenwood Avenue Chicago IL 60637 ph/fax: (773) 702-0887 e-mail: chicago-review@uchicago.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 11:16:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: List Down til Monday Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The Central Email service at SUNY-Buffalo has been closed until Monday morning for scheduled maintenance. This means that the Poetics List will be down and that anyone with a UB email address will not have access to their mail this weekend. Charles Bernstein ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:36:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: poetics restart MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Finally, and after several false starts, I've been able to access this account for more than a few minutes at a time. I anticipate that this means the Poetics List will be able to resume as of now, with the caveat that incoming messages sent to the list may be delayed somewhat, and that backchannel correspondence certainly will be, for the next few days. Your patience has been and continues to be appreciated - especially as the list was interrupted in the midst of some rather interesting discussion. % Christopher W. Alexander % poetics list moderator ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:56:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Manifest Destiny In-Reply-To: <19990720221527.88778.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If I understand Hilton correctly (Hilton, are you there?), the _secular_ use of the Book of Revelations was more as an available source for rhetoric supportive of a very different kind of millenarianism than the descent of chaos/reign of the saints/end of time kind. I'm willing to be corrected if I didn't get it. As to Washington's preference for Hebrew as a national language, I've yet to be persuaded and would need chapter and verse. At 03:15 PM 7/20/99 PDT, you wrote: >Mark, >I first heard of the Washington/Hebrew/American national language thing from >an Israeli; we were both standing in the shadows of the largest >free-standing statue of Elvis Presley in the world, just west of the suburbs >of Jerusalem. Subsequently I heard the same bit several times more, both in >Israel and across the river, in Jordan; quoting it seemed most to be an >attempt on the part of various opinion-holders to ground the legitimacy of >Israel as a sanctioned state in the previous preference of a person of >stature (what DID Elvis stand on Israel anyway?). Now I see viz Hilton's >recent post > >that the Washington version may be some sort of rough metonym for the more >detailed report Hilton DOES supply, luckily for me, since I was rather stuck >on your comment re: Washington's being a Deist, as if that made some >difference in the both larger yet still local (& locateable) "millennarian >&/or escahtological imperialist" scenario. >& I do recognize that the American "Revolution" wasn't just slugging it out >over a pot of molasses and a glass of Jamaican rum. > >& no, I'm not "saying that everything is the same and no differentiation is >possible." I'm saying that SAYING THAT "everything is the same and no >differentiation is possible" is very much the matter of state & media >sanctioned "plurality" in which nothing is "the same" because it's all >plural (sounds like some kind of semantic problem to me), ie., "the same". >Look at what's called the Global Economy - what IS it? Or more essentially, >who's it FOR? >It seems an essential question, especially in light of the contest this List >also takes part in, ie., what the new riddles are, who will fix them, what >the fix IS, how one may get in and/or out of them. > >Ugly politics are still what poets have to operate in, if not "out of". If >good art permits of ugly politics, how good is it? If poetry is thought to >be some kind of all-encompassing cross-weaving of the subjects and objects >of THIS world, yet disavows it for the referentially pointed and possibly >parallel THAT one, how does one keep the "stretch" of it "clean"? Via some >sort of critical yet perpetually generous "spirit"? & who's to the good for >it? Ie., where's the community? Is it limited to the ardent hearers of >this, and LIKE, "lists"? > >Anyway, thanks for your substantial additions/corrections, Hilton, if you're >there; I look forward to your book. >- S E > > > >>From: Mark Weiss >>Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >>Subject: Re: Manifest Destiny >>Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:50:16 -0700 >> >>I hesitate to respond to this. Are you saying that everything is the same >>and no differentiation is possible? >> >>Your interpretation of the American Revolution seems rather simplistic, but >>let that go. I'd love to see some documentation of Washington's thinking >>about making Hebrew the national language--it's new to me. And as to his >>interest in the Book of Revelations--I thought he was a deist. >> >>At 06:56 AM 7/16/99 PDT, you wrote: >> >The "field" of racism re: Williams, Pound & Eliot extends beyond the >>bounds >> >of a specific anti-semitism; ancient cultic law is not based on >>tolerance. >> >Not to be overly "Hebraic" about it, the fact remains that the murder of >> >former Israeli Prime Minister Rabin had, in some interpretations, >>rabbinical >> >sanction. Semitic law in general gives sanction for murder, if evidence >> >exists - and suspicion is often thought sufficient evidence - that a >>person >> >presents a threat to the security of the clan at large. We still operate >> >under a similar system, as a glance at who's who on any Death Row will >>tell >> >you. Enemies of the State. America wasn't founded to protect the >>interests >> >of any sense of the common man or to the common good; it was founded to >> >protect the interests of a wealthy group of molasses bootleggers >>operating >> >out of the Carribbean. Interesting in this light to recall that >>Washington >> >initially considered making Hebrew the national language, probably having >>to >> >do with aligning America with the moral authority represented by the rise >>of >> >"Israel" at the end of the world in the Book of Revelations. Nineteenth >> >century Manifest Destiny is a pure product of nothing but. In fact, the >> >genetic/hereditary science of Eugenics was a 19th century American >> >invention, and the Sterilization Laws passed in 1907 by the State of >>Indiana >> >"to prevent procreation of confirmed criminals, idiots, imbeciles and >> >rapists" was the prototype for Nazi-funded scientific missions to find >> >"reason" for persecution of Jews. WCW, Pound, Eliot & Co. - "us all" too >>- >> >are the inheritors of this tradition. Given this, the accusation that >>these >> >guys were "anti-semitic" seems trite; the more essential question lies in >> >the extent to which they - or any of us - gave (or in our case, continue >>to >> >give) sanction to state-infected suppositions toward "liberation." >>Calling >> >WCW anti-semitic merely sweetens the lie that we in fact DO have the >>moral >> >authority to "call him down," but what phantom will rise from the process >>of >> >so doing? Or more specifically, though maybe slightly off the mark, what >> >are the relations between poetic form, natural proportion and human law, >>for >> >example, that permit the existence of a sort of "screen" or "grate" >>through >> >which we may have intimations of the smell of death, but no actual access >>to >> >the causatively related "killing floor"? When the feeling of "threat" is >> >multiplied into an analogical "house of mirrors" (and perhaps of cards), >>how >> >do we identify it, ie., how do we get into the basement over which the >> >killing floor is laid? >> >S E >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >>From: KENT JOHNSON >> >>Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >> >> >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >> >>Subject: Purity >> >>Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:08:33 -0500 >> >> >> >>May I indulge in some self-defense, please? >> >> >> >>Stephen Vincent wrote: >> >> >> >> >Kent Johnson's righteousness - or at least that tone - about nailing >> >> >WCW to an anti-Semitic cross seems to me to indulge an easy >> >> >dichotomy. I am not sure if Johnson's trying to throw the Doctor out >> >> >with the bath water, but I always get uncomfortable when anyone >> >> >(myself included) goes to the Holy ground with an implicit claim of >> >> >purity - what ever might be the issue. I would go as far >> >> >to say that my opposition to anti-Semitic, anti-Palestinian, racist, >> >> >homophobic or any other abusive behavior involves a personal >> >> >acknowledgment and desire to exorcise some part of my person that >> >> >has inherited or learned those behaviors >> >> >> >>Stephen, if I point out, as I did, that there is textual evidence of >> >>a strong anti-Semitic strain in Williams, why is this >> >>"self-righteousness"? I responded to what I felt was a significant >> >>blind spot in Billy Little's typically-provocative post, and did so >> >>in a reasonable way, I thought. Then there were four indignant >> >>responses, all of which strongly denied the applicability of the >> >>term, a couple of these calling my post "ridiculous." So I responded, >> >>pointing people to some specific evidence, and now am accused by you >> >>of being self-righteous, by implication blind to my own likely >> >>racism, and of trying to throw WCW "out with the bathwater." >> >> >> >>I _love_ Williams. If he was more of a prick, more humanly sinful >> >>than the canon-makers have let on, that does nothing to diminish the >> >>greatness of his poetry. And in some ways the darkness makes >> >>the greatness all the more fascinating! The record is the record >> >>(which, yes, is open to differing interpretations), and I think it's >> >>best to talk about it without the innuendo you interject above. >> >>Kent >> > >> > >> >_______________________________________________________________ >> >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com >> > >> > > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 10:06:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss In-Reply-To: <199907211332.JAA05263@interlock.randomhouse.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Look, this discussion is about the kind of antisemitism that has an attitude towards "those people," one's friends always implicitly or explicitly exempted as "not that kind of." It allows for certain choices in ones fiction that I think would not otherwise occur to one. This I think unexamined attitude is of course very different from and less destructive than Poundian antisemitism, but it's the kind that American Jews in the present in more or less civilized places are most likely to encounter. Which is why it continues to be disturbing to some of us. Maybe my thinking was shoddy, or maybe we're talking about two different things. I retire from the field. At 09:30 AM 7/21/99 -0400, you wrote: >Hi Mark, > >Not to drag this on, but it seems to me this story is unrelated to what the >context of my ideas were earlier. I'm don't see how the naming of a dog, >and the eventual calling by its name and what light this sheds on the moral >make-up of a family, has anything to do with sitting down and writing a >short story, a modernist one no less, which involves a plethora of >aesthetic and strategic issues that are simply overshadowed by this >connection -- why reduce? I think just dumping a discussion of Williams >into this anecdote is too easy, besides being poorly thought through (more >important than the names of philosophers would be a clear goal and >consistency in thought, especially in such a thorny realm -- and what makes >you think I would have been better treated than that family, which you hold >before me as an example of my ignorance?). I am certainly not an apologist >for Williams -- he's much better messy and flawed, but you seem to imply >this by your last sentence, with has a certain acidic tenor which I deemed >"unfair," and still do because you used sentiment to guide an opinion >regardless of the content of my post and those it was responding to. >Consequently, I don't know what your jibe on "feigning a persona" has to do >with what I wrote since I didn't write about personae, nor about "feigning" >one (which is kind of impossible, people usually "adopt" a persona, or >"feign" a personality -- "feigning a persona" would put you two steps >behind the surface). I was talking about words and sentences, the "many >origins" to misquote Olson, and not "irony" (there's a bit of negative >capability thrown in there also, I guess). > >Anyway, I'll happily retire from this one. Just wanted to clear that up -- >it's implicit in the previous post, I think. > >Yours, >Brian > >>I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Williams is more than any >>modern poet the source of my own development as a poet, so I guess I think >>he's useful. And the boy in the story was my best friend. I don't think >>either of them were being ironic in expressing their less savory >attitudes. > >At 01:34 PM 7/19/99 -0400, you wrote: >>I don't think this is a fair reading of what I wrote. Perhaps, if you'd >>like a new angle on this, you can imagine writing a story with your friend >>from the Poconos as the protagonist, and when quoting him in the story not >>use quotation marks. You, as most of us, would be very frightened to do >>this because you would wonder if a reader would think these were words >>reflecting your own opinions or personality. But nonetheless this is what >>a lot of modernists did, I guess because it was supposed to be an >>unmediated representation of objective reality, which in the scientific >>spirit of the day was a primary goal. Of course, if you don't think your >>friend from the Poconos is worth literary immortality you wouldn't write >>the story at all, but then again you wrote this post, so your friend, >>racist or not, was somehow useful. >> >> >>Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:16:46 -0700 >>From: Mark Weiss >>Subject: Re: PS on Williams >> >>When I was a little kid we used to vacation at a cheap resort in the >>Poconos, which were a lot more remote before the construction of I-80 than >>it is now. I became close friends with the owner's son who had a black >>German Shepherd names Nigger. I don't think he'd ever met a Black person, >>but I don't doubt for a minute that he and his family were racists. But >>maybe when he called his dog he was feigning a persona. >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:56:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Tisa Bryant's question re WCW In-Reply-To: from "christopher t funkhouser hss fac/staff" at Jun 9, 99 08:57:53 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tisa (& all), There's a guy named Sergio Rizzo who's written some interesting stuff about Williams and black women in 2 different but related essays: 1) "The Other Girls of Paterson - Old and New" in WCW Review 20.1 (Spring '94) 2) "Can 'Beautiful Thing' Speak?: Race and Gender in Paterson" in Deese/Axelrod, eds., Critical Essays on William Carlos Williams (NY:G.K. Hall, 1995). Black women had a pretty profound influence on Williams from childhood to old age, - it is, not surprisingly given all we've been saying lately about him, a vexed but interesting connection. -m. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:46:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Evans-Impercipient query MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wonder if someone would send to me a photocopy of Steve Evans' "The Dynamics of Literary Change" [Impercipient Lecture Series no. 1], which I've been unable to acquire elsewise. Also, if anyone knows the current snailmail address for the Evans-Moxley duo, please send. I can of course be contacted backchannel here, . thanks, Chris % Christopher W. Alexander % poetics list moderator ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:33:52 -0500 Reply-To: dillon@icubed.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard Dillon Organization: E L E M E N O P E Productions Subject: Re: WCW's map of pleasure & pain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Shoemaker's essay cracks into the truth about WCW and his depths. Shoemaker is a real scholar and teacher. No ax to grind. Just the plain truth. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 10:35:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carolyn Guertin Subject: Re: query In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >can anyone help me find the Coach House Press book order website? i need >to order a martyrology for my fall course. http://www.chbooks.com ___________________________________________________ Carolyn Guertin, Department of English, University of Alberta 3-5 Humanities Centre, Edmonton, Alberta T6G 2E5 Canada E-Mail: cguertin@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca; Tel/FAX: 780-438-3125 Website: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 12:51:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Presenting, 3-Hand john & His junkyard Dawgs... Comments: To: "Lowther,John" In-Reply-To: <5D5C5C8C3A41D211893900A024D4B97C737524@md2.facstaff.oglethorpe.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII If every poem embodies "a theory" (or, a poetics).... I have no prob with that, i guess. I meant (and am still most concerned about) poetics in a fairly formal sense. Which might be defined by example: Pound's and Zuke's theoretical statements, a work like Marginalization of Poetry or CB's A Poetics; or the old L=A=N=G essays by various hands collected in the Language Book. Just because i ask myself if i should try to clarify my practice ( and my thoughts about others' work) by doing such formal writings, or not... JL, you are sort of shifting the terms so that you and i are talking about *somewhat* (tho not entriely) different things... (or so it seems to me..) This might be made clearer by rephrasing what i said: poetry reaches beyond the analytic grasp & explanatory ability of any given *piece of writing about poetics*....... About your point, i only have one small objection: a poetics, or theoretical approach, may lie (in fact, i agree: *does* lie) behind any given poem.... But because the poet often works from inside the materials and movement of her work, she is often not very conscious of or concerned with what that underlying poetix is. Not in any way that she could (or cares to) articulate. That's not so much an objection as a qualification. It can be very good and helpful for her, sometimes, if she *is* aware of her underlying poetix. But fab work gets done by people who don't think much about thier underlying poetix at all. It can work either way, depending on the poet and the project... Mordecai (3-finger) Brown ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 12:20:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: persona In-Reply-To: <199907211332.JAA05263@interlock.randomhouse.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 9:30 AM -0400 7/21/99, Brian Stefans wrote: > >Consequently, I don't know what your jibe on "feigning a persona" has to do >with what I wrote since I didn't write about personae, nor about "feigning" >one (which is kind of impossible, people usually "adopt" a persona, or >"feign" a personality -- "feigning a persona" would put you two steps >behind the surface). Brian, I'm intrigued by this idea of feigning a persona as opposed to adopting one. Adopting one sounds like putting it on proudly, even buying into it. Feigning one reminds me of those endless social occasions when I've known what kind of persona was required but I couldn't buy into it, didn't have the heart to fully embrace it, or was lacking in the social skills to pull it off. In those instances, I'd say that feigning a persona would be much more appropriate a category. An awkward ineffectiveness. Cocktail parties come to mind as a dangerous site. Also much of the humor on TV sitcoms, not that I watch them enough to be an authority. In writing, too, I think this comes up. Kathy Acker's personas, for instance, their delightfulness is in the sense of feigning rather than adopting. Pathos unbalancing power. When I hit reply to all in Eudora, the speech function kicked in for some reason and my computer started reading your message outloud to me in this mechanical reverb voice. Creepy, but appropriate somehow. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:02:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: SITUATION #19 is now available MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII SITUATION #19, a chapbook issue, features Allison Cobb's A LITTLE BOX BOOK, a serial poem that we feel is quite fabulous and hope you'll want to check out. Here's an excerpt: Then the little box is more gone a sort of scorched awake through all--the fire storm the indelible infant crying to itself the nation's first non-shift Buick the one-legged soldier a gift of the President mom closes necks around hangers the little b b yawns a crimson yawn thinks APPLE TREE KEY and then SAW--the face she turns it turns wrong The issue is available for $3; a four issue subscription to Situation is $10. Situation is edited by Joanne Molina and Mark Wallace, is published several times a year, and now alternates one magazine issue with one chapbook issue. Manuscripts for chapbook issues are handled by solicitation only. All submissions for magazine issues must be accompanied by an SASE. Make checks payable to Mark Wallace. Send submissions or subscriptions to Situation, 10402 Ewell Ave., Kensington, MD 20895. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 22:54:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII oOo oOo oOo oOo oOo I shaved off my bierd (sic) and mustash (sic) today so I can get close to Azur (sic) and tomorow (sic) I will have off my pub hair (sic) and body hair so I can get clos (sic) to her skin which is mine I wil (sic) be so clos to her skin I will not no (sic) the diference (sic). I will cut out my eyes to (sic) so I can be clos (sic) to Azur (sic) all tuching (sic) her wen (sic) she lets me everywher (sic) then maybe something with my eers (sic) I dont (sic) no (sic) I may do something with my nales to (sic). Then I wil (sic) be so clos (sic) to Azur (sic) it wil (sic) be a-mazing (sic) and I wil (sic) be very hapy (sic) to be so clos (sic) to her. I wil (sic) cut out my tong (sic) and fingers. oOo oOo oOo oOo oOo _________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 12:34:26 +0000 Reply-To: archambeau@LFMAIL.LFC.EDU Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Archambeau Organization: Lake Forest College Subject: Manifest Dentistry MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Mark Weiss wrote: > > I'd love to see some documentation of Washington's thinking > about making Hebrew the national language--it's new to me. It was a matter of those wooden teeth. Surely Washington would have felt the glottal fricatives they entailed would blend in better with Hebrew than English. Robert Archambeau ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:39:55 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joan Houlihan Subject: Re: Pound and the Bollingen Prize Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Well, not exactly. I agree that: The work is not the man. The prize is not the man. Therefore, the man is neither the prize nor the work. However: The prize is the both work and the man. There has to be work to be a prize; and, by implication, there has to be a man (or woman) to be work. The ratio of man to prize increases in relation to how "political" the selection criteria are. In general, I feel that ethical considerations of the writer's life should be entirely separate from considerations of the work--not that ethical concerns shouldn't be considered, discussed, dissected, etc., just that they shouldn't be seen as germane to the work. At all. A close-up of anyone's life reveals multiple layers, "selves" and contradictions--the study of personality is an interesting one. However, in the case of a writer, their biography is merely another footnote, and maybe a totally misleading footnote at that. A critique of the work, on the other hand, is much closer to the writer's "self." >The work is not the man, neither is the prize the work. The prize, as i >think you are saying, is a political gesture apart from the work. > > > > > > >_______________________________________________________________ > >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > > > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:38:53 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joan Houlihan Subject: Re: PS on Williams Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed RE: I am suggesting >that to understand is not necessarily to forgive. I agree with this, and in the case you posit below, it holds true, but sometimes it's very difficult to separate these two things, don't you think? In fact, implied in "I understand" is a forgiveness of sorts. There are many things that can never really be "understood," not least of them the holocaust. In order to understand a hateful behavior we have to go into internals--motivation, intention, etc.--and if we can't match these with anything in our own self-understanding, there's little chance of "understanding" the other. I still think the drive to "understand" WCW by means of biographical revisionism is, in fact, in order to forgive him, so that our enjoyment of his work can be undiminshed by his anti-semitism. I just don't think it's necessary to accomplish this, to forgive him, in order to appreciate his work. Or, maybe it's just a hero-worship thing--a need to "clear the name" of a beloved icon. >From: Mark Weiss >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: PS on Williams >Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 17:07:30 -0700 > >It's good to be reminded from time to time why I don't mind having been >such a bad graduate student. >I don't think I ever suggested that complex thinking about anything is ever >out of order, nor that Williams was uniformly a bad man. I am suggesting >that to understand is not necessarily to forgive. Perhaps especially if one >is a member of the victimized group. >Here, by way of illustration, is a story I heard from a friend not five >minutes ago. His ex-wife, with whom he has a passably friendly >relationship, had their two young children last night. He gets home late to >an hysterical message on his machine: the kids had awakened in the middle >of the night to find themselves alone. This morning he discovers that the x >had gone out to a bar because she needed some adult company. It's a hard >time for her--she just broke up with her guy, and her father, to whom she >was very close, just died of cancer. She's usually not that irresponsible. >Easy to understand her situation as complexly as one likes, not so easy to >forgive. >And I did all that without reference to a single philosopher. > >At 02:16 PM 7/16/99 -0400, you wrote: > >According to Mark Weiss: > >> > >> When I was a little kid we used to vacation at a cheap resort in the > >> Poconos, which were a lot more remote before the construction of I-80 >than > >> it is now. I became close friends with the owner's son who had a black > >> German Shepherd names Nigger. I don't think he'd ever met a Black >person, > >> but I don't doubt for a minute that he and his family were racists. But > >> maybe when he called his dog he was feigning a persona. > >> > > > >Mark, I understand where this is coming from vis a vis the Williams > >discussion, but it also seems worthwhile to point out that you've framed > >the issue in a classic and, to me, ultimately limiting way. Essentially, > >you're replaying a critique levied by Lukacs against existentialism - > >specifically Kierkegaard and Heidegger. Lukacs says that their refusal >to > >acknowledge the unity of the Self (eg, K's view of the individual as > >"incognito") was just bullshit: > > > >They "embraced this doctrine of the eternal incognito which implies that >a > >man's external deeds are no guide to his motives. In this case > >[Heidegger's], the deeds obscured behind the mysterious incognito were, > >needless to say, these intellectuals' participation in Nazism...But if > >this impenetrable incognito were the true 'condition humaine,' might not >- > >concealed within their incognito - Heidegger or Schmitt have been secret > >opponents of Hitler all the time, only supporting him in the world of > >appearances?" > > > >Now, what Lukacs says here really strikes a cord. I won't get into the > >whole issue of Heidegger and Nazism. What I will say is that Lukacs' > >logic - though I sympathize deeply with his dilemma - is flawed. It > >presupposes that the only critique of the Unity of the Self falls along > >the lines of this existential concept. Lukacs, it seems to me, comes out > >of the humanist aspect of Marx and Marxism: the self is ethical and >whole: > >if not, than it is damaged and unethical (evil). In the world of > >continental philosophy of the 30's Heidegger and Lukacs may have seemed > >like the operative poles (though the Franfurt folks & I think > >particularly Benjamin offer an alternative) - but as regards Williams, > >there's John Dewey, there's Kenneth Burke, offering very important > >alternatives to a Lukacsian perspective on the self which stays well away > >from this issue of the Incognito. Dewey: "individuality itself is > >originally a potentiality and is realized only in interaction with > >surrounding conditions." This statement didn't *deter* Dewey from > >critiquing the unity of the self - it was in fact the *predicate* by >which > >he understood the self as a multifarious, multimotivated construction; >and > >through which he recognized that deciphering the motives behind > >individual actions (including speech acts) required the same sort of time > >and heightened attention and open-mindedness that an anthropologist (a > >good one) brings to the activities of whole communities. So, just to >say, > >that when I ask for complex thinking on this WCW/anti-semitism it is from > >this latter, pragmatic perspective, though not without knowledge of > >Lukacsian exasperation. > > > >-m. > > > > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:58:19 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CharSSmith@AOL.COM Subject: Arcturus Editions: Pat Reed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Arcturus Editions is proud to announce the publication of: Pat Reed: CONTAINER OF STARS artwork by Marianne Kolb ISBN 0-9661505-2-X $10.00, 4 7/8 x 7 1/2, 28 pp., printed letterpress using handset type on Mohawk Superfine, with Thai Unryu endpapers sewn in Fabriano Tiziano covers $20.00 signed edition, lettered A-Z Publication Date: August 1, 1999 Culled camping in the Sierra Nevada, her perception pared to precise sound, the syllables of Pat Reed's poems spill effortlessly down page, a stream that "opens the blackness." Pat Reed was born in Los Angeles and has lived in the Bay Area for the past twenty years. She is the author of six books of poetry: _Sea Asleep_ (Coincidence Press, 1983), _More Awesome_ (One Dog Garage, 1985), _Qualm Lore_ (One Dog Garage, 1987), _Kismet_ (O Books, 1990), _Tangle Blue_ (1993), _Dawn Walking Shoes_ (1996), and a prose memoir of teaching refugees in East Oakland, _We Want to See Your Tears Falling Down_ (literatura de cordel, 1996). She currently teaches at Hayward State University. Swiss artist Marianne Kolb has lived in the Bay Area since 1983. She has exhibited in the U.S. and in Europe since 1991 and is currently represented by Hang Gallery in San Francisco. Primarily a painter and printmaker, she often changes medium and scale in her work, and at times will drop all other tools to draw with stick & ink. Two ink stick drawings were created for _Container of Stars_. "From the author of the deft sprawl of _Kismet_ comes a 'poking / through the / black grid,' a mellow rounded ear of absence, then 'fish whump' or 'Giants shift'-- a causal puzzle of clustered stanzas abutting the natural world. Enjambment quickens and slows the eye-word 'VERY STILL' -- can't escape -- the locale-specific, transportative function of this beautiful clear work." --Steven Farmer "Absolute (f)act of attention to word enactments of events in world; what happens when one stops to see and/or hear 'it' taking place in the 'out there' that is also an interior experience of being inside solitude of exterior land(e)scape; feeling registered as the sounds of syllables in the air/ear ('I sit still / in my tent / by the river // filling my ear / with cold going') -- Pat Reed's _Container of Stars_ bears (re)reading, again and again." --Stephen Ratcliffe Also available: Gustaf Sobin, _A WORLD OF LETTERS _ISBN 0-9661505-1-1, 16 page letterpress chapbook, $8.00 Julia Connor, _Chrysanthemum_ (forthcoming) Kenneth Irby, _Ingressions & Exolutions_ (forthcoming) Arcturus Chaplet Series: (printed letterpress on a single sheet of paper & sewn in covers): #1, Patrick Pritchett, _Ark Dive_ (an elegy for Ronald Johnson), $4.00 #2, Kenneth Irby, _[syzygos]_, $5.00 #3, Elizabeth Robinson, _Lodger_ (forthcoming) #4, Laura Moriarty, _Ololon_ (forthcoming) Available from Small Press Distribution, 1341 Seventh Street, Berkeley, CA 94710; 800-869-7553; http://www.spdbooks.org; e-mail: spd@spdbooks.org or from the press, checks payable to: Charles Smith $1.50 shipping & postage, $.0.50 per additional items CA residents, please add 7.25% sales tax Arcturus Editions 2135 Irvin Way Sacramento, CA 95822 charssmith@aol.com ********************************************* Apologies to all who receive this message more than once. Please let me know if you don't wish to receive any further announcements from Arcturus Editions. ********************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 05:30:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: $3.50: Summer vacation in Scandinavia! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I think I've discovered where poetry might be, had there never been a "Wasteland" to set us back 30 years! With the recent interest in international poetry demonstrated by such publications as Boundary2, readers should grab up the chance to check out the oddities transpiring in ~Scandinavia,~ in the latest issue of Samizdat (no. 3). With English translations of 10 little-seen poets from Sweden, Denmark, and Finland, it's an opportunity to glimpse a sturdier branch of our same family tree, effortlessly twentieth century, in a lineage spared the antagonistic influences of American confessionalism with its counter-reactions. The surprise of it is a kind of unselfconscious modernism which escapes the sometimes deforming pressures of obligatory experimentation. Even Nordic Europe's "conservative" strains seem to derive from an unfamiliar lyric tradition (unfamiliar to American readers) which remains startingly without recourse to our lyricism's "I"/"you" axis. What informed English or Romance poetry these poets do explicitly evoke (Lawrence Durrell, Valery, and Char in Gungerd Wikholm;"My Interview with I.A. Richards", Perry Miller, and an Auden epigraph in Anglophone Goran Printz-Pahlson) may sometimes seem quaint, but its spottiness and lacunae have spared them the weight of the Bloomsian patrilineage we suffer, all for the better. All the same, it's interesting to find Eliot that far north: "But think also of . . . the lonely typists in their immaculate rooms / with a small fridge and biscuits on the mantelpiece" ("My Interview"). (That quote may be unrepresentative, though, as even the same author could coin such fine peculiarities as "intestines of the heuristic house" [!].) Overall, they have no compunctions about blithely changing direction mid-stream in their poems, yet without that petrifying into an imprisoning literary trope like formal "disjunction." A flourish of Pop can turn up, as in Printz-Pahlson's "The Enormous Comics," which flaunts as much Superman and Katzenjammer Kids as a Kenneth Koch poem, except here Superman is a ~transvestite.~ Curiously, Scandinavian modernism also seems to have grown up without the facile vernacular imitators took from Williams Carlos Williams, and the pleasant formality that results meets the L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E '90's halfway, insofar as they too, if pushed to it, may "hate speech." For instance, such linguistic materialities as: "And the language will arrive at last / We do not know what's first", "The vortex of our language / in the greater vortex; through its eye---" (Goran Sonnevi), "Stuck in his back pocket, a book with gleaming covers / . . . start at what page?" (Jesper Svenbro). There's a good share of nature imagery, --- a relief, in this July weather --- but there's a lot of wilderness up there, and, while perhaps a trace of Symbolisme adds a cool mystery to such "yellow leaves of the birches, the red leaves of the rowans", it's equally realist in its occasional specificities: "drop by drop / down the whitewashed wall and the bulging gauze-wrapped sewer pipe / to come out first as rust" (Soren Ulrik Thomsen). Here's how far from transparency it can go: "gridiron reverberations / in the hills, sourmash / blandishments . . . As the ~gavroche~ innocence of a barnyard rape: // He offers a smile, mild / as pick-axe handles a / mile wide which kindles/ the hide of rutabegas" (Printz-Pahlson again, whose English language originals, translated into Swedish, have "on occasion" been translated back into English, according to the editor's introduction). I lived in Sweden when I was a teenager, so I can swear to you: those "sourmash / blandishments" keep coming and coming. (Followers of this EPC discussion list will also be glad to hear from our own Masha Zavialova, lone list-er throughout continental Russia, in her "Word from Russia": she reports on their first prize for independent writing, the covetted Andrei Belyi Prize for literature, where the award is a bottle of vodka and one ruble.) The info is: Samizdat / 14 Campus Circle / Lake Forest, IL 60045. Single copies of current/back issues: $3.50. Subscription: $10 for three annual issues. Checks made out to editor Robert Archambeau. What better time than now, while summer sunlight lasts well past midnight there? JJ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 19:58:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Wheeler Subject: 1999 Books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For several reasons, I've a question for y'all: what are the best books of poetry (collections, summations, book-lengths, etc.) published in 1999 you've come upon? Susan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 22:34:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: contact info for Robin Blaser, Harryette Mullen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit would like to get in touch w Robin Blaser, and Harryette Mullen, ASAP re POG business (poetry reading series, etc). Does anyone have good contact info (phone? ACTIVE email? snailmail?) for either or both? pls backchannel. thanks Tenney (Nathanson) mailto:tenney@azstarnet.com mailto:nathanso@u.arizona.edu http://www.u.arizona.edu/~nathanso ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 22:37:41 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: pete spence Subject: Re: the ELBURG BOOK Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >also in January of this year i published Cornelis Vleeskens' translation of >Jan G Elburg's THROUGH THE EYE OF THE SCISSORS >the back cover reads: >jan g elburg's scissors >produced this text sometime >in the 60's 7 it was published >in the 2nd ed of PRAATJES KIJKEN >by Meulenhoff in 1974 >Cornelis Vleeskens did >this translation in 1990 >7 Raimondo Cortese set it >set it for pete spence at the time >we've played with it over the years >and it is now finally printed in 1999. >Eburg was involved with the COBRA movement. >published by LOOK!! POETRY!! > >TYPOGRAPHIC POETRY. >$5 US cash thanks. >THANKS pete spence > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 00:33:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Cope Subject: Beyond the Page Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >BEYOND THE PAGE continues its monthly series of literary and arts events >with the following reading/performance: > >What: Carlos Blackburn and Bruce Whiteman read from their work. > >Where: Faultline Theater, 3152 5th Avenue (at Spruce), San Diego. > >When: Sunday, July 25, 1999. 4PM. > >Etc: $3-5 donation requested. Beer, wine, and refreshments available. > > > > ********************** > > > >* From Brooklyn, CARLOS BLACKBURN left and left again to find life >elsewhere and consistently found it. While in pursuit of a decent >education from the world, managed to write some stuff here and there. >Variously known as friend, lover,employee, brother, buffon, son, >extrovert, introvert. Been out of work, up to date, right on time, in too >deep and down and out. Loves subways, oceans, bikes. > > >* Born near Toronto, BRUCE WHITEMAN has been in the United States since >1996, and is currently Head Librarian of UCLA's William Andrews Clark >Memorial Library. Author of over a dozen books of poetry - including two >installments of the serial work _The Invisible World is in Decline_ (Coach >House Press) - Whiteman is also a translator. bibliographer, and critic. >His scholarly work includes an annotated bibliography of Leonard Cohen and >a translation of Fran=E7ois Chorron's _After 10,000 Years, Desire: Selected >Recent Poems_. The third installment of _The Invisible World is in >Decline_ is forthcoming next year from Toronto's ECW Press. > > > > ************************* > > >BTP is proud to continue its monthly series of arts-related events with >this reading/performance. BTP is an independent literary and arts group >dedicated to the promotion of experimental and explorative work in >contemporary arts. For more information, call: (619) 273-1338, (619) >298-8761; e-mail: jjross@cts.com, scope@ucsd.edu. > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:16:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lowther,John" Subject: Re: pointless questions(ANSWERS) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > how much authority is enough? - not so's you'd notice even with a team of dedicated searchers > where do you buy this commodity? - i found it sitting on the bench outside the asst. principle's office > how do you get the others to listen? - cup one hand to ear > where did Eliot Weinberger come from? - new york ? > why wasn't he here to begin with? - beads were traded for him beads weren't invented yet > what's fear worth these days? - $6.75 per 2/hr increment > which poem are you referring to? - each is a snatch out of the continuum "poetry" don't make me choose > what's your favourite of all the poems you don't read? - must i choose ? i often like quotations from The Prelude but have never read the text > can we talk Tennyson? - no (i've an impediment) > how long did it take you to find out? - the realization came in an instant > who's out now? - john cage tho my love for him has nothing to do with his sexuality > where are the boundaries? - out there ---> > which one's the boss? - no one, history, i dunno... > who cares? - those who use the answer > when did all this come down? - it's always come down and is now > who's in charge of these words? - "I [state yr name] am." > who owns the owners? - > which credential do you prefer? - those which ask us to think > what's your idea of relief? - escaping the hype > what part of death is not necessary? - the end > where have you been all day? - on hands and knees crawling under a spectacle to cannibalize a few parts > what's the best way to get out of here? - on the wind but tacking against it > can you find a better route there? - hope for *any* route > behind who should you hide? - yr best guess but be prepared to slip behind another if it doesn't pan out > at what point will you know that you have won? - when the rules change > are you as ready as you need to be? - to think so wd be complacent > are all circles the same? - if looking out of a box > can we question questions? - as a means yes, as an end why ? > will there be time later? - probably not > who should we turn to? - everyone we can reach > does the perimetre change? - yes, it recedes as we approach > do we? - guilty until proven static > are you quite sure? - i'm sweating > is there one in many? - if one is an island ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 09:53:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Changes at Small Press Traffic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Small Press Traffic's executive director Dodie Bellamy will be taking a year's leave of absence to take the post of "Distinguished Visiting Writer" at Mills College's English Department. While she's away, SPT board member Jocelyn Saidenberg will assume directorship for the year to come. Jocelyn is the author of Mortal City (Parentheses Writing Series: 1998). Her work has been published in many journals such as Arshile, Mirage#4/Period[ical], Outlet, and Primary Writing. She is the founder, editor and publisher of KRUPSKAYA, a small press collective dedicated to publishing experimental poetry and prose. Born and raised in NYC, she has been living in San Francisco since 1994 and is the 1999 winner of the New Langton Arts Bay Area Award Show. (Dodie will continue to act as an advisor and volunteer.) ------------------------------------------------------- Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at New College 766 Valencia Street San Francisco, CA 94110 415/437-3454 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:46:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Modernists in the basement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I alluded a few days ago to an exchange between Pound and WCW. Here is the passage I had in mind, from Eliot Weinberger's long essay "The Modernists in the Basement and the Stars Above" (truly a stunner, in many ways), found in _Works On Paper_ (New Directions): Pound, letter to Williams, 1936: jews having been circumcised for centuries/ it must have had some effect on the character. [...] history is written and character is made by whether and HOW the male foreskin produces an effect of glorious sunrise or of annoyance in slippin backward. Someone diagnosed Shaw years ago by saying he had a tight foreskin/ the whole of puritan idiocyis produced by badly built foreskins. Criminology/ penology shd/ be written around the cock. The dissecting room shd/ lay off that chaotic bucket of sweet breads from the skull and start research from the prong UPward. The lay of the nerves/ etc. This doesn't blot out endocrinology/ but it is the fount of aesthetics/ means microscopic attention/ disssection and micro/ photographic enlargements/ killers etc/ shd have their prongs photoed postmortem. Williams' reply: ...if cutting off the loose hide over a few thousand years has altered the Hebrew character-- I doubt it. By all the laws of heredity it should have affected the women and they are as bad as the men today, or worse. It ain't the skin that makes the difference in the man, its the stick in it that does it. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:03:30 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ramez Qureshi Subject: Ribot Query MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear All: Does anyone know what the theme for the next Ribot is/what the deadline for the next issue is (if it hasn't already past). Under 30, Ramez Qureshi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:15:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Starr Subject: Diastic Reading (Yet More Ways to...) Charles O. Hartman's original DIASTEXT program is available from the tools page of my website. He was kind enough to send it after someone forwarded my query to him. You'll find it as a ZIP file containing a DOS executable and the C source at : http://www.eskimo.com/~rstarr/poormfa/poemtool.html You'll also find a Perl program to do diastic reading on that page. And, last but not least, I have a web page that does diastic reading (I made the Perl program into a CGI script ). So, you can go to http://www.eskimo.com/~rstarr/poormfa/diastic.html type in your key/title phrase, paste in your text, click a button, get the diastic text, and not use anything other than your browser. There are also links to Taylor Brady's Word macros and other things that other folks and other sites pointed me to. Happy computed writing. - Ron ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:24:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: A H Bramhall Subject: Dust My Broom MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the importance sucks every importance does sucks the big empty egg sucks the importance careering thing. motivation sucks. that's this thing brunch with the kennedys your sultry pals and any dirty thing. all you, same old clunk in the big top give me a break. I got out. pierce your freak, eat armour, see your own sag, hold my cob. where I come from, learn the roots. where I come from, settle the issue. where I come, from oh well. where I come from, your rat. when I lose, I really lose. what's the gambit stinky pattern madcap give me a break. authority lives the total crap you big less than tree. this is natural hold my cold. poetry sucks excavation. poetry is just schoolwork in a prison of yesterday's reform. bite my provisions. I already said nowhere there am I. you and I can't dance. freak out toke, could go on and on. wherever. whatever. Nancy's on the phone. see you at the princess meeting if I fail. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 22:24:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Jaime Saenz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Five poems by the Bolivian writer Jaime Saenz (translated by myself and Forrest Gander) are just up at Jacket #8. http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/jacket08/index.html Hope some of you will take a look at this very interesting poet. Kent -------------------------------------- Jaime Saenz (1921-1986) is Bolivia's leading writer of the 20th century. Prolific as poet, novelist, and non-fiction writer, his baroque, propulsive syntax and dedication to themes of death, alcoholism, and otherness make his poetry among the most idiosyncratic in the Spanish-speaking world. As the author of one of Latin America's first openly homosexual novels, the as yet untranslated masterpiece Felipe Delgado, Saenz's work also stands as a singular example of artistic and personal courage. His poetry is collected in eleven books (including a volume of selected work), the first of these published in 1955 and the last in 1984. The poems presented here are taken from the collection As the Comet Passes (1982). They are the first published translation of Jaime Saenz's writing in English and part of a book manuscript of selected works. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 02:28:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Vito Hannibal Acconci MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII &*& Vito Hannibal Acconci She was an ordinary girl from a nowhere place. She came to Hollywood to make it big and I knew her back when, way back when her name was Carrie. Carrie was sixteen and just about as sweet as they made them, and back then they made them sweet. You could take one look in her eyes and know that was innocence talking and you'd never be the same. I once saw her stop traffic with her voice; I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't see it myself. The cars just pulled right over. She sang her poor little heart out. You'd take one look at her and you'd know she wouldn't last. You'd take her in and take care of her and ask for nothing back. She would have given you everything in the world, you thought,and she made your heart big as all outdoors. I saw the sun rise in her eyes and I thought I'd see it set, too, but it didn't. Everyone knew she was doomed to failure and everyone worked hard to make sure she never failed. I'm an old man now, I could tell you stories, she'd still remember me, it was just last year I heard she died, I gave her the best parts of my life, I can still see her then, you wouldn't believe such innocence, her smile brightened my life, sometimes I hear her call me, I turn around thinking she's there, I remember her like the day I was born ________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 06:43:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: A H Bramhall Subject: The Whole World's In An Uproar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the thing is bent out of shape. your memory resists the change. figuring the drama and the proper out of body expenses. dream this, baby needs a lunch box. speed is might, dogs don't dream, words aren't careful as they fall from your tree. I wish the central issue big time convention of forces till the field next time freaking out. oh how love can mystify when you don't even hear the words. dogma, factotum in an age of free spending muckers. this is the language I ended up with. and my topic today is what is left ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:56:36 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Buuck Subject: Attacks on camp KPFA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="simple boundary" --simple boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Camp KPFA was torn down by police at 4 am. According to Friends of KPFA, 6 peoeple were arrested, among them KPFA leader Kahlil Jacobs-Fantauzzi. Kahlil was taken to Santa Rita prison--isolated from all of the other supporters arrested, who were taken to local jails. As of 11:45 am, he had not been read his rights and was uncertain of what they plan to charge him with. When he asked what he was being held for, an officer resonded "for being a jerk." He has been denied his requests for vegetarian food, and has been ignored in his requests for writing materials. According to those he has contacted from the prison, they do not plan to release him until he posts bail. The amount has not yet been determined. This is a strategic attack on the leadership in this struggle! Kahlil and all those arrested during this struggle need our support! What you can do: 1) Attend the march/rally TODAY at 5 pm, Ashby BART Station in Berkeley. 2) Attend tonight's Berkeley City Council Meeting at 6:30 pm. 3) Attend the hip hop event at 8 pm at La Pena. And march back to the station at 12 am. 5) Camp out! Help us re-establish camp at KPFA. Bring cameras to record what you see. 1929 MLK Jr. Way, Berkeley. 6) Call all local media and demand that they report on this. We need critical watchdogs! You can call any of the following numbers for updates on the action: Friends of KPFA, (510) 548-0542; KPFA Protest Hotline, (510) 594-4000, ext. 202; First Amendment Center Hotline, (510) 287-9406. http://www.savepacifica.net/index.htm for info: http://www.sfbg.com/kpfa/index.html Background: The Story thus far . . . Like every organizational crisis, KPFA's began with an incident. The overwhelming response to that incident revealed that, throughout the Pacifica community, thousands of people were deeply troubled by network's lack of democratic process. On March 31st, 1999, the Pacifica Foundation's Executive Director Lynn Chadwick informed KPFA general manager Nicole Sawaya that her job with the station had been terminated, effective immediately. Chadwick told Sawaya that she was not a "good fit." The Pacifica Foundation, a non-profit organization, manages the affairs of five non-commercial radio stations throughout the United States. KPFA was the first; started in 1949, it is the oldest listener supported FM station in America. Sawaya's ousting came two weeks before KPFA's fiftieth anniversary. The firing revealed an utter disregard for the first and most obvious rule of community radio: major policy decisions will be made in consultation with the community. Pacifica management talked to no one beyond its own inner circle before taking this drastic step. A strong, independent minded leader, Sawaya was very much liked by KPFA's staff and the larger community. Her ousting provoked a huge wave of protest from KPFA supporters across Northern California. That night KPFA's news department prepared a report for the listeners about the sad decision. To the astonishment of the staff, Pacifica told the station's news director not to run it. The story was broadcast in defiance of the order. Even before Sawaya's dismissal, however, Pacifica was clearly moving in an alarming direction. On February 28th, the Pacifica National Board met in Berkeley and decided to remove Local Advisory Board (LAB) members from its national governance board. Local advisory board are the backbone of community input into Pacifica national policy. They meet once a month and hear the concerns of listeners, volunteers-- whoever has something to say. Formal LAB member presence on the national board helps keep Pacifica accountable to the network's stations. Now that LAB members were gone, Pacifica's national board became a completely self-appointing body. KPFA's signature voice, Larry Bensky, appeared before the National Board to argue against this decision. Bensky is a 30 year veteran of the Pacifica network, having won the Polk Award for his historic gavel-to-gavel coverage of the Iran-Contra hearings in 1986. Bensky warned the board that Pacifica's National Office was becoming unaccountable and top-heavy with staff. When Pacifica terminated Sawaya as general manager, Bensky became even more worried about a management style that had now become autocratic. He took his concerns to the listeners on his regular Sunday program. On April 9th, Pacifica responded by firing Bensky as well. The coup strategy was now obvious to anyone who cared to look: centralize your authority, remove from any position of governance those who seem like they might question you, and fire your critics. These actions came from an organization whose flagship daily public affairs program is called "Democracy Now," and, in its own literature, refers to Pacifica as "democratic communications." The KPFA community, outraged, took to the streets. For KPFA's listeners and staff, "democracy" is more than a word you put on a mass mailing to get someone to send you a check. Over 800 KPFA supporters demonstrated against Pacifica in front of the KPFA building on March 31st. On May 9th, 2,000 demonstrators gathered at Berkeley's Old City Hall to protest Pacifica's intransigence. It was the biggest listener demonstration in the history of community radio. KPFA's staff began airing regular public statements, demanding the reinstatement of Sawaya and Bensky and calling for the independent mediation of the dispute. The station's listeners responded by making KPFA's May/June subscription marathon the most successful in its history: 6,200 pledges made "under protest" of Pacifica's actions. An ugly incident took place, and Pacifica used it against KPFA's paid and unpaid staff. Late on the night of March 31st, someone fired gunshots into the Pacifica national office headquarters. No one was hurt. After years of defending the free speech rights of anyone and everyone, Pacifica has sometimes crossed paths with fringe groups. Frightening but thankfully infrequent moments like this have been the price. Most of the time it has been station staff who have braved the dangers and threats. But this was the first time in the organization's history that Pacifica used the event to hire on-site security guards. They were placed not in front of Pacifica's offices, where the shooting actually happened, but inside KPFA's studios. Lynn Chadwick then appointed herself general manager of KPFA. On Monday, June 22nd, a delegation of about a dozen people came to Chadwick's office to talk to her about her policies. They were led by a member of Berkeley's City Council and a Catholic priest. Chadwick used this event to justify the hiring of armed guards -- grey-suited, professional security gunmen- -to watch KPFA's staff. Chadwick even denied KPFA staff access to door security codes. An organization founded by pacifists--World War II era conscientious objectors--was now under lockdown at gunpoint. Even before it had gotten this bad, Pacifica claimed its third victim. Robbie Osman had been a music and commentary programmer at KPFA for over two decades. So effective and influential was Osman's regular Sunday program that the great folksinger Kate Wolf wrote a song for it: "Across the Great Divide." Osman had for years been troubled by the direction Pacifica seemed to be headed. He actively spoke out against Sawaya's and Bensky's firing on his program. On Friday June 18th Pacifica's national office cancelled his show, dispelling any doubts about the Brave New Pacifica they have in mind: a rigid, top-down organization where policy will be made by a group of people who can be counted on the fingers of one hand--with digits to spare. The following Sunday, KPFA broadcast silence when Osman's regular program would have been aired. Outside, demonstrators protested the firing. Pacifica has tried to justify these actions by claiming that they want to bring greater diversity to the network. But KPFA's minority staff haven't bought a word of it. "KPFA's African American programmers will not be complicit in any Pacifica-driven purge of KPFA staffers under the guise of 'diversity'," a May 21st letter signed by 13 programmers declared. Scores of voices across the progressive community agree. Mumia Abu-Jamal, Alice Walker, Dolores Huerta, Noam Chomsky and many others have called upon Pacifica to practice what it preaches every day on Pacifica radio: There is no way to democracy; democracy is the way. KPFA's community is united as never before to save the spirit and reality of commuity broadcasting. The nation's community of community radio knows that the future of democratic broadcasting in America will be decided in Berkeley. Keep your eyes on this website and your ears to KPFA for further news about how you can help us all win. by Matthew Lasar, author of Pacifica Radio: The Rise of an Alternative Network (Temple Univ Press, 1999) --simple boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="RFC822.TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="RFC822.TXT" Received: from mail.yerbabuenaarts.org by link.yerbabuenaarts.org (ccMail Link to SMTP R6.0) ; Wed, 21 Jul 99 15:46:55 -0800 Return-Path: Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by mail.yerbabuenaarts.org (8.7.3 Version 1.1 Build 562/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA00052 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:48:50 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: Alsonnie@aol.com Received: from Alsonnie@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id rGXLa24008 (7995); Wed, 21 Jul 1999 17:53:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <8378696a.24c79b74@aol.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 17:53:56 EDT Subject: Attacks on camp KPFA To: comite-98@uclink4.berkeley.edu, panitaboricua@uclink4.berkeley.edu, Heather_Abel@sfbg.com, jannastar@hotmail.com, mestizo@worldnet.att.net, mbreo@earthlink.net, athena@gfriends.com, bcaygill@yahoo.com, bthompson8@juno.com, damonj@earthlink.net, dbaylor@kpmg.com, joshuka@hotmail.com, samoore@sirius.com, watchme@uclink4.berkeley.edu, riseup@sirius.com, mcetting@hotmail.com, soulschool@hotmail.com, hanand@usabal.com, margotlk@uclink4.berkeley.edu, dkirchoff@antioch-college.edu, tgdykemovement@angelfire.com, micko@tritium.net, AnnaRMills@aol.com, maianam@hotmail.com, mahtinata@hotmail.com, erparker@yahoo.com, Sarah@sepian.com, JLpeta@hotmail.com, systemic@earthlink.net, lunaprods@earthlink.net, tarevalo@ahschc.org, cameofemme@yahoo.com, kalu@uclink4.berkeley.edu, emilk@cmc.net, RamosCNYD@aol.com, al_batross@hotmail.com, dbuuck@yerbabuenaarts.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Mac sub 85 --simple boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 21:23:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Neff Organization: Web Del Sol Subject: ACLU case in Detroit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello to the list. Below is the information re the stay in Detroit for the internet censorship case. If anyone in the Detroit area wishes to attend the hearing, please give me a call at the hotel mentioned below and I'll provide the information on where, when, etc. Info on the case can be found at http://webdelsol.com/solhome.htm Thanks. We'll defeat the puri-tyrannicals, I'm certain. Mike Neff Editor WDS --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike Neff -- I spoke with Mike Neff from Web Del Sol today and he is happy to testify on Friday. His flight arrives at Detroit Metro on Thursday evening at 5:41 (NW Flight 1225) from Nat'l airport (e-ticket # 7X4RPR). A law student (to be named later) will pick him up at airport and bring him to the Pontchatrain Hotel. The plan is for Andy, Marshall and/or Chris to meet with him on Thursday evening to prepare him for Friday morning. Let me know if you have any questions. Thanks. Michael Steinberg, Legal Director ACLU of Michigan 1249 Washington Blvd., Suite 2910 Detroit, MI 48226 ================================ Web Del Sol http://webdelsol.com LOCUS OF LITERARY ART ON THE WWW ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 14:16:22 -500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Sender has elected to use 8-bit data in this message. If problems arise, refer to postmaster at sender's site. From: Jim Rosenberg Subject: (Fwd) WEB DOC(K)S MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT With apologies for cross-posting ... ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- To: jr@amanue.com (Jim Rosenberg) From: "akenatons docks" Subject: WEB DOC(K)S Date sent: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 18:20:02 +0200 To: YOU!!!!!! From: akenaton/docks Subject: WEB DOC(K)S SPECIAL ISSUE Cc: Bcc: X-Attachments: WEB ART & POESIE : DOC(K)S N° SPECIAL A la suite de la présentation dans le cadre des 1° rencontres d'art contemporain d'Aix-en-Provence (http//www.aix-art-contemporain.org) d' une sélection de travaux liés au web nous avons décidé de réaliser un numéro special de la revue DOC(K)S consacré au même thème. Comme pour les numéros précédents celui ci sera doublé d'un CD ROM. Pour la partie imprimée nous attendons de vous des textes théoriques, des images, des travaux liés à la poésie visuelle etc. Pour le CD nous souhaiterions des travaux directement liés au web ou en tout cas susceptibles d' y être diffusés. Selon la formule que nous avons testée à Aix-en-Provence nous essayerons dans la mesure du possible de restituer le contexte web. Si vous avez un site nous souhaiterions - par exemple - utiliser votre home page comme index et "'titre" de vos travaux. Des liens externes sont possibles. Bien entendu, nous sommes tout à fait disposés à présenter sur ce CD les objets déjà sélectionnés pour Aix-en-Provence. Si vous avez fait partie de cette sélection nous attendons votre accord. Si vous souhaitez des modifications nous sommes à votre disposition. Formats pour l'impression: word 5 ou 6, mac ou pc, images jpeg ou .tiff (300pp), dimension maximale des pages 17X24, 5. Formats CD ROM: html, gif, gifa, jpeg, .swf, .dir, .mov, .wav, .mid, compression: winZip, stuffle.ex Deadline : 30 Septembre 1999 Les envois peuvent être faits par voie électronique (akenaton_docks@sitec.f) pour les objets légers ou par voie postale pour ceux destinés à l'impression. ZIP, Syquest 44/88, Diskettes. Format Mac ou PC. Adresse: AKENATON/DOC(K)S 12 COURS GRANDVAL F 20 000 AJACCIO tel fax 04 95 21 32 90 http://www.sitec.fr/users/akenatondocks WEB ART & POETRY : DOC(K)S SPECIAL ISSUE In the wake of the presentation for the first Aix-en-Provence Contemporary Art Meeting (http//www.aix-art-contemporain.org) of a selection of works linked to the Web, we have decided for a special issue of the review DOC(K)S on that theme. Like the latest issues it will be teamed with a CD-Rom. For the printed matter itself we invite you to send us texts on theory, images, visual poetry works etc. As for the CD, we would like proper Web-works or at least suitable to a Web-diffusion. Much like the formula we tested in Aix-en-Provence we will strive to recreate the context of the Web. If you have a site we would like - for example - to use your home page for an index and 'title' to your works. Exterior links could be made. Of course, we can very well settle with the objects already chosen for Aix-en-Provence. If you were selected we await anew your consentment. We are at your disposal should you wish to modify something or other. Formats for the printed works: word 5 or 6, mac or pc, pictures jpeg or tiff(300pp), max. size for a page 17x24.5. CD-Rom formats: gif, gifa, jpeg, .swf, .dir, .mov, .wav, .mid Compression: winzip, stuffle.exDeadline : 30 September 1999 You can send your contributions either by e-mail (light stuff) or simply by mail (printed matter for print! usable as is! also Zips, discs, syQuest 44/88 (mac or pc) Adresse: AKENATON/DOC(K)S 12 COURS GRANDVAL F 20 000 AJACCIO tel fax 04 95 21 32 90 http://www.sitec.fr/users/akenatondocks --- Jim Rosenberg http://www.well.com/user/jer/ CIS: 71515,124 WELL: jer Internet: jr@amanue.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 03:08:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Parks Subject: Action Appeal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii 3F46.a Following is a collection of paragraphs of detail on volcanic Pacifica v KPFA (et al.) battle. * Is anyone present at or around University of Pennsylvania? A useful thing would be to scratch up action there (perhaps inform the campus paper, or talk with active or left faculty) to get Dr. Mary Francis Berry's (who is a professor there) actions “on behalf of radio listeners” into light. * The survival of KPFA WBAI KPFT (the last hasn’t survived, actually, has been essentially killed, now runs NPR feeds and has been reduced from an 8- to 1-language broadcaster of wasp garbage thanks to Dr. Berry’s regime) et al would be a more likely thing right away if it weren’t for the fact that Dr. Berry, Pacifica Foundation Chair, is also Black & the head of the US Civil Rights Commission, and big pawn of the White House and Democrat Establishment, and is, according grapevines of the left, merely one puppet in a classic behind-curtain cabal of Corporation for Public Broadcasting / White House / CIA ? / Corporate Radio (there are at least 4 corporate broadcasting entities who have stated on record they’d be interested in purchasing, to the tune of 70ish million, KPFA’s channel at 94.1, or, barring KPFA’s, WBAI’s. Dr. Berry has enlisted support of many “powerful” individuals and entities by claiming that her mission is to integrate KPFA, “a bastion of the White,” agit-snow-bullshit cover that has been debunked by all in opposition, most notably the allied staff of color of KPFA, unanimously. You can read in various media of her (and Lynn Chadwick’s [Pacifica executive director]) disgusting tactics of oppression of KPFA staff and listeners, since roughly March, however I will mention that a nearly ultimate KPFA-death step has been achieved today with Pacifica’s placement, assisted by protective goons, of wiring KPFA’s transmitting so it can broadcast whatever it wishes via KPFK in Los Angeles (whose manager is a dictatorial ass at the feet of Pacifica, and has both threatened KPFK staff with “discipline” should they mention the debate on air or, even, “outside the station”). Today, yesterday, and so forth, when one tunes in to KPFA one hears gelatinous music or rebroadcasts of talks. For full information on all facets see, above all: www.savepacifica.net www.radio4all.org www.counterpunch.org As a pre-postscript: Pacifica & Micheal [sic] Palmer [sic] (CEO of CB Richard Ellis of Houston, one of the largest corporate real estate firms in the world &, strangely, the Fascist to thank for anemia at KPFT), as well as the Justice Dept and select liberal jackoffs, know they have the most dutiful and excellent puppet Dr. Berry, and have moved step by step with such force and heinousness as to only mean a decided endgame of purging KPFA’s staff and “reprogramming.” (Berry is on record with this agenda—her aim is to affiliate Pacifica’s five big stations with National Public Radio. We’d then have, as “public radio” in America, a thousand stations simultaneously broadcasting the Sickly White Soundz of those eleven men who all sound the same and provide no information, no dissent, and Terri Gross, who would drool on a pile of excrement if it had a name badge on it and a mic near its face). (We’ll have, in a few years: “Fresh Air is supported in part by Monsanto, supporters of social justice & progressive agriculture since 1890” and “All Things Considered is brought to you by Eli Lilly, Inc., makers of Prozac, using Nazi research to drug all of America since 1947, and major benefactors of the Ruth Lilly Poetry Prize, whose monies have been accepted and spent by such notable poets as _________________” Please note that very recently the National Board of Pacifica voted amongst themselves, without notice, and behind closed doors, as it were, to also abolish any local power, i.e., input of local staffs, listeners, and advisory boards, and to vest the Pacifica National Board exclusively the right to make any all present or future calls. I have a suspicion not a great many “left” artists are actually politically active outside the politics of their artmaking, but a handful of letters calls or emails by a group of them or you to the numbers & addresses that follow would yet add to the powerful dissent, which, in a totally controlled and drugged American society, is, en masse, the only popular phenomena that politicians respond to. * * * as of this note, word is that Amy Goodman, host of Pacifica’s most listened-to program, Democracy Now!, is now! having her shows censored directly each morning, in advance of airing, by Pacifica. (She had been neutral, though last week at last aired a 40-minute segment on “the crisis”; that Democracy Now was pulled from the air at all stations save WBAI, where it is produced, and because KPFA has been taken over by IPSA (former CIA, plainclothes, guncarrying goons installed inside station by Pacifica), those listeners in the San Francisco Bay Area didn’t hear it at all . . . and the man Mary Berry has flown in to “run” KPFA during the lockout is Garland Ganter, a closet White-Supremicist who is, when in Houston, board Member Micheal Palmer’s dog and human pliers at KPFT.) Here are the Pacifica boardmembers, to whom protest should be addressed: Chair of Pacifica’s Governing Board Dr. Mary Frances Berry - at-large member 624 Ninth Street NW #700 Washington DC 20425 phone: (202) 337-0382 FAX: (202) 376-7558 e-mail: mfberry@sas.upenn.edu Pacifica National Board, Executive Committee David Acosta, Vice Chair - KPFT phone: (713) 926-4604 FAX: (713) 921-2780 e-mail: cpadga@aol.com June Makela at-large member phone: (212) 673-9225 FAX: same e-mail: junemakela@aol.com Roberta Brooks (resigned) phone: (510) 763-0370 Ext. 18 FAX (510) 763-6538 e-mail: Roberta.Brooks@mail.house.gov Ken Ford - WPFW Phone: (202) 822-0228 FAX: (202) 822-0369 e-mail: kford@nahb.com Frank Millspaugh - WBAI phone: (212) 741-0839 FAX: (212) 924-7409 e-mail: fmillspa@aol.com Bob Farrell - KPFK phone: (323) 299-3800 X 255 FAX: (323) 299-3896 e-mail: rfarrell@kamber.com Pacifica National Board Members William Lucey Nat. Secretary-Treasurer, AFSCME Mbr., Exec. Board, NAACP wlucy@igc.apc.org Michael Palmer - KPFT (Real Estate Broker, Houston, TX) FAX: 713-960-8583 mpalmer@cbrichardellis.com _____________________________________________ BULLETIN: KPFA NEWSCAST INTERRUPTED...TAPES PUT ON AIR BY PACIFICA IN PLACE OF REGULAR PROGRAMMING At 6:06 p.m. this evening, the KPFA evening news was interrupted by background sounds of KPFA “Flashpoints” host Dennis Bernstein protesting rough handling on the part of the armed security guards who apparently were enforcing his suspension for material broadcast on the air a few minutes earlier. As news anchor Mark Mericle was describing the scene, his microphone was abruptly cut off, and there was dead air for two minutes. Then a pre-recorded speech (ironically, by Los Angeles activist Eric Mann about Marxism and socialism) began to be broadcast. THERE IS AN EMERGENCY DEMOSTRATION GOING ON AT THIS TIME...IF YOU ARE NEARBY...PLEASE COME TO 1929 MARTIN LUTHER KING JR WAY IN BERKELEY AND SUPPORT FREE SPEECH COMMUNITY RADIO... AND FAX...phone...or e-mail Dr. Mary Frances Berry and the other members of the Pacifica national board to protest their outrageous actions! _____________________________________________ I HAVE JUST LEARNED THAT PACIFICA IS PLANNING TO INSTALL A LINE TO THE TRANSMITTER WHICH WILL ENABLE PACIFICA TO BROADCAST KPFK LIVE FROM LOS ANGELES ON TO 94.1. AN EMERGENCY PROTEST HAS BEEN CALLED. PEOPLE WHO CAN GET THERE ARE URGED TO GO TO BERKELEY, TAKE CLAREMONT AVE. UP BEHIND THE CLAREMONT HOTEL, UP IN THE HILLS TO GRIZZLY PEAK BLVD., AND AFTER A QUARTER OF A MILE, YOU SHOULD SEE THE ROAD LEADING TO THE TRANSMITTER AND PROTESTERS BLOCKING IT. GET THERE! - This message comes via the freepacifica list. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a single word email to freepacifica-request@recordist.com _____________________________________________ UPDATE: PROTESTS CONTINUE AT KPFA, PACIFICA DENIES EXPULSION OF STAFF IS A LOCKOUT LEADING CALIFORNIA LEGISLATORS CALL FOR HEARING ABOUT PACIFICA FOUNDATION’S ACTIONS IN LOCKING OUT STAFF, CHANGING FORMAT OF KPFA, MISUSE OF FUNDS BENEFIT CONCERT SCHEDULED FOR BERKELEY COMMUNITY THEATER MONDAY 7/19 FEATURING JOAN BAEZ, DAR WILLIAMS AND OTHERS (With apologies for missing a day of updates...our computer was down and we are all overextended in fighting this dreadful takeover...) l. Protests continued tonight (Thursday) outside the now padlocked and plywood-panelled facade of KPFA and Pacifica. Pacifica executive director Lynn Chadwick and her staff have apparently moved out of their offices, possibly to downtown Oakland (a demonstration will be held there as soon as their new address is verified). More than sixty riot-equipped police were present as the rally began shortly after 5 p.m. By 6 p.m., the crowd had reached at least 500 people (there were over 2,000 the night before, but there was less time to organize tonight’s...). Several protestors tried to enter KPFA via a ladder to a second floor balcony, but Berkeley police pulled them roughly inside. Nine were arrested, bringing the total to 77 arrests in protests thus far. A number of protestors said they would set up camp for the weekend. A hip-hop community rally in support of KPFA staff is set for 5 p.m. Friday in front of the station. Pacifica states that the lockout is not a lockout, but paid leave for everyone at KPFA. Meanwhile pre-recorded tapes continue to be played by scab engineers. After failing to find anyone local to take engineering control, Pacifica imported another KPFT employee, chief engineer Bob Cham, to aid KPFT station manager Garland Ganter and Pacifica Program Service worker Mark Torres from Los Angeles in broadcasting speeches and music. 2. Sixteen California legislators, led by Senate pro tem President John Burton and Assembly Speaker Antonio Villaraigosa today released a letter requesting a hearing by the Joint Legislative audit committee into Pacifica’s actions in this crisis. Noting that Pacifica is “incorporated as a public service tax exempt corporation in California,” the letter expresses concern that Pacifica “may violate its charter and tax exempt status” by disenfranchising local advisory boards and using fund for purposes inconsistent with its charter.” In addition the letter cites the “lock-out of station workers” in violation of Pacifica’s contract with Communication Workers of America. “When there are reasons to suspect that Pacifica is acting unethically or illegally, we believe a hearing is warranted,” the letter concludes. 3. A benefit concert for locked out and fired KPFA workers will be held Monday, July 19 at the Berkeley Community Theater, featuring Joan Baez and Dar Williams. Ticket information follows tomorrow...BUT PLEASE PLAN TO BE THERE! 4. ARE YOU A UNIVERSITY OR COLLEGE TEACHER? If so, you might want to send a letter similar to one sent by University of California teacher Gray Brechin to Mary Frances Berry’s academic superior at the University of Pennsylvania. ( see http://savepacifica.net/0716_brechin.html ) ———————————- http://savepacifica.net to unsubscribe to this list, reply to this letter with “unsubcribe” in the subject line. _________________________________________________ From: “Lyn Gerry” To: “Free Pacifica” , “Free Pacifica” , “Free Pacifica” Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:47:18 -0700 X-Distribution: Moderate MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Urgent Press release: EMAIL RECEIVED DETAILING POSSIBLE Reply-to: lyn@radio4all.org Priority: normal ———- Forwarded Message Follows ———- Subject: Michael Palmer email press release READ Date sent: Tue, 13 Jul 99 12:25:04 -0800 From: Andrea Buffa NEWS FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: July 13, 1999 CONTACT:Belinda Griswold 415-546-6334 x313 CONTROVERSIAL EMAIL RECEIVED DETAILING POSSIBLE CLOSURE OF KPFA AS LAWSUIT IS FILED TO FORCE ACCOUNTABILITY COMMUNITY LEADERS DECRY CRACKDOWN BERKELEY, CA - At a press conference at 1:30 p.m. today, Media Alliance Executive Director Andrea Buffa will release a controversial email she received yesterday that describes plans by Pacifica Radio to close KPFA and possibly sell another Pacifica station, WBAI in New York. The email appears to have come from Pacifica board of directors member Michael Palmer. “We are working to confirm the authenticity of this email and call on Michael Palmer and Pacifica Board Chair Dr. Mary Frances Berry to immediately publicly confirm or refute this email,” Buffa said. Phone calls by Media Alliance and several Pacifica board members to Palmer have not been returned. Local Internet service provider IGC was contacted about verifying the path by which the email was sent to Media Alliance. IGC’s tech services department has stated that the email looks to have legitimately been sent from Palmer’s account. The full text of the email is available at www.zmag.org or www.counterpunch.org. The press conference takes place immediately preceding a hearing at Berkeley Municipal Court at which charges will be filed against a group of peaceful protesters who blocked the entry to Pacifica Foundation’s office in Berkeley last month. The demonstrators prevented Pacifica Foundation Executive Director Lynn Chadwick from entering her office on June 22. Chadwick initiated a citizen’s arrest when Berkeley police refused to cite the activists. Local community leaders decried the decision, calling it a terrible contradiction. Meanwhile, a group of local stations’ advisory board members from Los Angeles, Berkeley and New York is pressing ahead with a lawsuit intended to reverse Pacifica’s recent governance changes that eliminated local say on the national board. Oakland attorney Dan Siegel will file suit within the next few days to restore the last shred of local control at Pacifica: the ability of local station boards to recommend members to the national board. Seigel will also attend the press conference. “Pacifica, when faced with the question of changing its method of choosing its leadership, opted for the least democratic option imaginable. It is time to revisit this issue, and it should be unnecesssary to require a court order to do so,” Siegel said. Yesterday, Pacifica national board chair Dr. Mary Frances Berry arrived in Oakland, told neither staff nor listeners of her visit, and attempted to negotiate with KPFA’s union leaders. Shop stewards met with Berry to remind her of her promise to meet with the KPFA steering committee, which both listeners and staff have designated as their representative, and refused to negotiate further. KPFA paid staff, volunteers, local advisory board members, subscribers, and listeners will continue to press Pacifica to: 1) Rehire respected KPFA station manager Nicole Sawaya, whose termination touched off massive protests in Berkeley and the firing of two veteran programmers because they violated Pacifica’s on-air “gag rule”; 2) Participate in mediation and allow for investigation of the dispute between local interests and the national bureaucracy; and 3) Reverse the disciplinary or adverse actions taken against KPFA and Pacifica staff since Sawaya’s termination. * * * scandalous & frightening email from Palmer is as follows (Pacifica spokeswoman Jackass Fabri [total fascist & issuer of fraudulent press releases, varified in print authenticity of email, accidentally [!] forwarded to Andrea Buffa of SF’s Media Alliance]): From: Palmer, Micheal @ Houston Galleria, mpalmer@cbrichardellis.com To: ‘Mary Francis Berry’, ma@igc.org Hello Dr. Berry, I salute your fortitude in scheduling a news conference opportunity in the beloved Bay Area regarding one of the most pressing issues of our time............ But seriously, I was under the impression there was support in the proper quarters, and a definite majority, for shutting down that unit and re-programming immediately. Has that changed? Is there consensus among the national staff that anything other than that is acceptable/bearable? I recall Cheryl saying that the national staff wanted to know with certitude that they supported 100% by the Board in whatever direction was taken; what direction is being taken? As an update for you and Lynn I spoke with the only radio broker I know last week and his research shows $750,000-$1.25m for KPFB. There would be a very “shallow pool” of buyers for a repeater signal such as this and it would be difficult to do a marketing effort quietly due to the shortage of buyers. So there is no profound latent value to that asset. The primary signal would lend itself to a quiet marketing scenario of discreet presentation to logical and qualified buyers. This is the best radio market in history and while public companies may see a dilutive effect from a sale (due to the approximate 12 month repositioning effort needed), they would still be aggressive for such a signal. Private media companies would be the most aggressive in terms of price, which he thinks could be in the $65-75m range depending on various aspects of a deal. It would be possible to acquire other signals in the area, possibly more than one, to re-establish operations, but it could take a few years to complete if we want to maximize proceeds from the initial license transfer, or leave only $10-20m in arbitrage gain when purchase(s) is complete. None of this reflects tax consequences. This broker, just like any other that would undertake such an effort, would need certain agreements in place prior to starting. Mary I think any such transfer we would ever consider requires significant analysis, not so much regarding a decision to go forward, but how to best undertake the effort and to deploy the resulting capital with the least amount of tax, legal and social disruption. I believe the Finance Committee will undertake a close review of the Audigraphics data provided recently to determine what it is costing us per listener, per subscriber, per market, per hour of programming...in order give the Executive Director and the General Managers benchmarks for improvement. Even with that data my feeling is that a more beneficial disposition would be of the New York signal as there is a smaller subscriber base without the long and emotional history as the Bay Area, far more associated value, a similarly dysfunctional staff though far less effective and an overall better opportunity to redefine Pacifica going forward. It is simply the more strategic asset. With this in mind I would encourage frank description of the realities of the media enviornment we operate in and of Pacifica’s available resources to participate and have impact in the evolving media world. The Executive Committee, at a minimum, should have access to experts (whether from Wall Street, NPR/CPB, Microsoft or otherwise) to get a strong reality check (me included) about radio and Pacifica’s position in it so that informed decisions can be made. My feeling is that we are experiencing a slow financial death which is having the normal emotional outbursts commensurate with such a disease. We will continually experience similar events, in fact we have been experiencing similar events over the past several years, primarily because we are not self supporting through subscriber contributions and have a self imposed constraint on asset redeployment that leaves us cash starved at a time when our industry is being propelled in new directions, each requiring capital outlays of consequence. We’re boxed in at our own will. This board needs to be educated, quickly, and to take action that will be far more controversial that the KPFA situation. How can we get there? So, now I’ve exhaled more than I should, but you know where I’m at. Let’s do something. MDP ____________________________________________________ Pacifica has now been sued in California court, and is accused of constituting its board illegally (insert link to lawsuit text) as well as fiscal irresponsibility. THIS MAY WELL LEAD TO BOARD MEMBERS BEING SUMMONED TO TESTIFY...AND TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR MOVING THE ORGANIZATION TOWAD BANKRUPTCY. Do board members understand their personal liability now? A legislative hearing has been called for in Sacramento into the situation. AGAIN, INDIVIDUAL BOARD MEMBERS MAY BE CALLED TO TESTIFY, AND PROVIDE FINANCIAL RECORDS. Are board members ready for this? Another lawsuit may be in the works concerning the lockout of workers. DO BOARD MEMBERS UNDERSTAND THEIR LIABILITY HERE? Pacifica is spending tens of thousands of dollars on armed security guards (at least six) 24 hours a day at the station and at the transmitter. In addition, Pacifica is spending huge amounts of money on legal fees, extra employees brought in especially for this takeover, outside consultants and offices. DO BOARD MEMBERS HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING OF THESE EXPENDITURES? WHERE IS THE MONEY COMING FROM? HOW CLOSE IS PACIFICA TO BANKRUPTCY? Pacifica constantly says it wants arbitration. The staff and community have stated REPEATEDLY for three and a half months that we’re willing to arbitrate. But then Pacifica casts the conflict as a “labor management dispute.” THIS IS NOT A LABOR MANAGEMENT DISPUTE! IT’S A CRISIS INVOLVING PAID AND UNPAID WORKERS, THE COMMUNITY, AND KPFA’S LOCAL MANAGEMENT AS WELL. A steering committee of 11 representatives from all these constituencies has been waiting for NEARLY THREE WEEKS TO TALK TO PACIFICA. No response. Dr. Mary Frances Berry refused to meet with that steering committee when here for a few hours last week. She has refused to meet with other groups which have beseeched her for months (including major donors and African-American programmers). She has told board members she will not discuss with them either the lockout or the infamous “sell the stations” memo from Michael Palmer. HOW LONG ARE BOARD MEMBERS GOING TO TOLERATE A BOARD CHAIR THAT IS LEADING THE ORGANIZATION TO INFAMY AND RUIN? 2. Pacifica affiliate stations have communicated their outrage and solidarity with the KPFA staff and community, including stations in Portland, Oregon, Bridgeport, Connecticut, Troy, N.Y.,Tampa, Boulder, Madison, Garberville, California and Philo, California. Many have broadcast live interviews with KPFA representatives. IF YOU LIVE IN AN AREA WHERE THERE IS A COMMUNITY STATION... CALL THEM AND HAVE THEM WRITE TO US! 3. Day long rallies continue today (Sunday) in front of KPFA/Pacifica, with songs, speeches, street theater and more! A camp-out has grown to over sixty people, with tents stretching the entire city block. COME BY AND SAY HELLO if you’re in the region! And don’t forget to spread the word about our BIG BENEFIT CONCERT MONDAY NIGHT 7/19 AT THE BERKELEY COMMUNITY THEATER AT 7:30 featuring Joan Baez, Dar Williams, Utah Phillips, Dr. Loco and others! No advance tickets (no time!) just be there - ticket sales start at 4 p.m. ($20). WE DON’T HAVE KPFA (DUH) TO PUBLICIZE THIS CONCERT...WE NEED TO GET THE WORD OUT!!!! ________________________________________________ Various parties have decried the fact that those leading the actions against Pacifica are “Ex-Hippie Berkeleyites, 50 years old +” . But as a 30 year old -, I think that the children aren’t a part because they’re drugged & comfy, as are most Americans. ________________________________________________ A Lawsuit Challenging the Hostile Takeover By Pacifica Board of Directors was Filed: July 16, 1999 in Alameda County Superior Court ________________________________________________ BULLETIN: POLICE ACT AGAINST NON-VIOLENT KPFA PROTESTORS AGAIN ARREST TOTAL NOW AT 88 The following message was sent early this morning. You can protest this lack of coverage by calling Bay City News in San Francisco - a wire service that serves most local newspapers and radio and TV outlets - (415) 552-8900. Also, the Pacifica Network News has expressed great reluctance to cover this story. CALL THE PACIFICA NETWORK NEWS TODAY AND DEMAND THAT THEY COVER THE DESTRUCTION OF THEIR OWN NETWORK... EVERY DAY! 1-888-770-4944 ext. 323 or 316 or 318. And visit the KPFA site every day if you can...to encourage those of us that aren’t arrested for being there! See you TONIGHT at the Berkeley Community theater! john vance, Coordinator A First Amendment Center Berkeley, Ca www.angelfire.com/biz2/thefirstamendment (510) 287-9406 (HOTLINE for KPFA events and contact numbers) ************************************************************* Corporate Media Sleeping with Corporate Pacifica Board? To their credit, seems the corporate media is sleeping right along with the Pacifica Board of Directors, or so it appeared at about 3:15am this early Monday morning, July the nineteenth. I rode frantically back and forth and up and down University Avenue and MLK in Berkeley trying to observe the police and the protesters in front of KPFA and using a phone about five times trying to get the Bay City News Service to contact some body - anybody - just one media person to tell them that about twenty five Berkeley police officers had arrived at the KPFA studios and were strapping on their riot gear in preparation of clearing the street in front of the radio station by arresting protesters. Of course it was futile as the individual at Bay City News Service kept insisting that no one seemed to be available for a very crucial newsworthy event, not to mention the need of media witness to possible police brutality - which fortunately did not materialize. It was about five minutes to three am this Monday morning and I was walking with another protester in the streets in front of the Peoples KPFA building on MLK Way in Berkeley and we were chatting about some strategy or policy regarding the present KPFA-Pacifica crisis. All at once, I looked up and down toward University Avenue. There, briskly cruising in without lights or sirens, were about six Berkeley police cars followed by two large, black mariahs (paddy wagons). At that time, there were about twenty or more dome and other style tents set up against the KPFA building on the sidewalk and probably another twenty or so tents scattered in the street. Most people were sleeping. There were probably about a dozen protesters awake and casually walking around talking. The area had been relativly quiet since I had arrived. I got there about 1:30am. There were probably a total of maybe a hundred and twenty-five people at the KPFA protest at this time. Anyway, so I have my bicycle and I move at a fast walk in a northerly direction toward the street and duck around the corner, jump on my bike and I am out of there. Before I left the scene, the people that were awake and acting as security began hollering to wake people up and to let them know that the police were moving in possibly to arrest everyone. I rode my bike as fast I could - and a few blocks away on University Avenue - I spotted a couple of pay phones. I jumped off my bike and called Bay City News about three times trying to get someone from any media on the scene - not only to just get a story - but to act as witnesses to any arrests or police abuse - as I mentioned earlier. Anyway, after about my fourth attempt at trying to get the Bay City News Service and the San Francisco Chronicle to pay attention and have someone show up at the KPFA station on MLK, I finally gave up and went back to cautiously approach the potential arrest site at the KPFA building. The police had gotten most people to clear the street (one entire block had been barricaded in by the police) within the barricaded area and about eleven people decided to be arrested. The eleven people sat down right in the middle of the street and were arrested one by one. The protesters had two video cameras that filmed the entire police action that took place including all of the arrests. The arrests began at about 3:15am and were completed by 3:45am. While the arrests were going on, the hundred and twenty-five or so protesters stood on the sidewalk directly in front of the KPFA studios and chanted support slogans for the arrestees and anti-corporate - anti-Pacifica slogans at the Berkeley corporate police. By 3:50am, thepolice ordered everyone to stay out of the street as a streetsweeper was going to “clean” the entire one block area that the protesters had occupied. _____________________________________________ As a closing piece of information: the tracings of KPFA associates show that intercessions by the White House and Justice Dept have been made in Pacifica as early as 1991, and most fervently and recently as 1999 by the latter, particularly in wake of Democracy Now’s programs on Chevron in Nigeria and KPFA’s reporting on impeachment and investigative reporting on Maxxam and Henry Hyde, most notably, last month, on The Ecologist v Monsanto, and on and on. Nobody needs explaining how influential phone calls to influential politicians are quickly heeded. (Chevron has been ongoingly outraged by Pacifica’s coverage, and went so far [on a local level] as to physically remove KPFA news reporter Wendell Harper from the Chevron board meeting this year): "So an 'It must be stopped' from Corporate America and conservative star chambers could easily have engendered a move by liberal government and its intelligence battalions to engineer a discreet way to erode, in short time, Pacifica’s (and the US’s, cf Gary Webb and the two CNN reporters who were nearly permitted to air [before they were fired at the insistence of the DOD] the story on Sarin gas and the US Military’s mass assass. of 'chicken soldiers' who’d escaped Vietnam combat and were hiding in Laos) most left news reporters and reports. I think the utilization of Mary Berry and 'race/lack of diversity at KPFA' front is clearly, for a politician like Clinton, the craftiest first means." _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 18:49:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Neff Organization: Web Del Sol Subject: Electronic Literary Arts Newsletter (ELAN) #1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Members, This is the first ELAN. If anyone has newsworthy items, blurbs, or announcements of general literary interest they would like to include, please forward them to the ELAN editor, Liana Scalettar: and they will be well received. Subscription requests to the above address also. The ELAN reaches over 2000 members and is growing. Best, Mike Neff ********************************************************************** ELECTRONIC LITERARY ARTS NEWSLETTER #1 Note: ELAN is a non-commercial newsletter sponsored by a collaboration of magazines, writers, editors, and publishers at Web Del Sol, and directed only to members of the literary arts community. ********************************************************************** FEATURES AND HEADLINES THIS ISSUE: - Editor's Note (From the cyber trenches . . .) - Writers Writing/Writers Talking - WDS Joins ACLU in Michigan Anti-Censorship Suit - SmallPress.Net Bookstore Opens - On Offer: What WDS's Literary Buffet is Serving Now - Small Fish/Big Fish: New Imprints, More Mergers - WDS To Take Hollywood; Tom Cruise Changes His Mind - A Mega-Spamming Most Severe: Immature Prank or Net Terrorism? - Multi-Media Portal: Gateway to the Stars - With Djuna Presiding - Pi_R_Round To Host High School Creative Writing Programs - Poet Campbell McGrath Wins a Macarthur - Salinger's Daughter Plans Memoir *********************************************************************** FROM THE CYBER TRENCHES Welcome to Issue One of the Electronic Literary Arts Newsletter (ELAN), a monthly compendium of news for and about the literary community. We'll be pointing you to the essential news from the literary world; discussing developments at small and large presses; guiding you through the thickets of Web Del Sol and its bevy of guest publications; and, generally, providing a digest of things you should know. ELAN wants to be your one-stop, all-inclusive resource for lit. news--from venues large and small, writers known and unknown. To that end, please send gripes, suggestions, thoughts to elan_editor@webdelsol.com. And avoid cyberheadaches--tell your friends and loved ones to subscribe. Liana Scalettar ELAN Editor ********************************************************************** WRITERS WRITING/WRITERS TALKING Suzanne Berne has won the Orange Prize for Fiction for her novel, A Crime in the Neighborhood (Viking/Workman). The 30,000 pounds annual prize is given to the best novel written by a woman and published in the UK. Also shortlisted: Julia Blackburn's The Leper's Companion (Cape/Random House); Marilyn Bowering's Visible Worlds (Flamington/ HarperCollins); Jane Hamilton's The Short History of a Prince (Doubleday/Random House); and Barbara Kingsolver's The Poisonwood Bible (Faber/HarperCollins). Italian writer Pia Pera's take on Lolita, a novel called Lo's Diary, will be published by Foxrock Press. Farrar, Straus, & Giroux dropped the book, originally slated for a fall,'98 release, after Dimitri Nabakov, son of, sued the publisher for copyright violation. Nabakov will receive 5% of the royalties,and will write some introductory material to be included in the edition. Poet Nikki Giovanni talks to Publishers Weekly, in a June 28th interview, about teaching and writing, Tupac Shakur and Allan Iverson, cancer recovery and nesting robins. WDS JOINS ACLU IN MICHIGAN ANTI-CENSORSHIP SUIT; HOUSE VOTES WELL; SENATE COMMITTEE VOTES POORLY In response to Michigan's enactment of a law forbidding the provision of"sexually explicit" materials online to minors, WDS and the ACLU have filed suit, and are seeking an injunction against the enforcement of the law. Its vague language makes the law dangerous to publishers, even those who live outside the state of Michigan, who could be held liable for any sexually explicit material on their sites. Other plaintiffs include Litline and Alt-X. In related news, Arts Wire Current notes that the House of Representatives defeated the "Children's Defense Act of 1999" by a vote of 282-146. Introduced by my personal demon, Representative Henry Hyde, the amendment would have crimimalized the sale to minors of "any picture, photograph, drawing, sculpture,[etc., etc., etc.] containing explicit sexual or violent material." The ABA's Bookweb reports that on June 23rd, the Senate Commerce Committee approved a bill mandating that any school or library that uses federal funds for Internet connections must install filters to block access to "material deemed to be harmful to minors." SMALLPRESS.NET BOASTS THE BEST OF INDEPENDENT PUBLISHERS SmallPress.Net has arrived to expedite the purchasing of literary books online. Created and sponsored by the Literary Arts Allied Collective (creator and administrator of the Literary ArtsWeb Ring) and Web Del Sol, SmallPress.Net is uniquely programmed to make use of advanced CGI searching and bundling techniques which enable the user to conveniently and quickly browse for individual books and through predefined search categories. In short, the shop offers the literary best of Amazon.com, with Amazon's power and savings. Unlike Amazon, of which it's currently an associate, SmallPress.Net is fast, meticulously focused, and bereft of unwanted distractions.Set for rapid expansion, SmallPress.Net will soon partner with other publishers to showcase the finest new literature. With such luminaries as Gray Wolf, Milkweed, and Copper Canyon aboard, this new storefront promises to become a must-shop for lit. lovers online. ON OFFER: NEW AT WDS'S LITERARY BUFFET Look for Susan Messer and J. David Stevens in the Spring '99 web issue of North American Review . And, in the Review's just-posted archives, revisit Aimee Bender, Susan Hahn, and more. With a wee 25-year break, NAR has been publishing since 1815. And--wouldn't you know--Conjunctions #32, Eye to Eye, highlights collaborations, homages, arguments between writers and artists. Joyce Carol Oates, Paul West, and Bradford Morrow all fete Joseph Cornell; C.D. Wright's poems accompany Deborah Luster's silverprints, and vice-versa. The Prose Poem posts number 3, featuring new work by Robert Bly, Holly Iglesias, and Max Winters. In numbers 1 and 2, Stuart Dybek, Rosemarie Waldrop, and Chilean great Gabriela Mistral all appear. ZYZZYVA editor Howard Junker pithily and lovingly discusses little magazines, and Ford Madox Ford's stewardship of one in particular, on the brand new--clear, clean--ZYZZYVA home page . Proems? Posetry? In Posse grapples with questions of genre. Meanwhile, forms, forms, and more forms abound at La Petite Zine . LPZ's editors bring you microfictions, short shorts, ghazals, and tanka, aiming to "build on the past" while barreling towards the future. Lagniappe features sweet little freebies, odds and ends, and writerly tchotchkes. Work by Mackinnon, Darton, Baillargeon, and Maginnes appears in the New England Review ; poetry by Barbara Hamby and fiction by Reynolds Price distinguish the current web issue of Five Points , which will soon post a new issue Both Global City Review and Quarterly West are under renovation, and should be back in the mix soon. Five Points is also working on a new site: And, for those of you not yet sated, Perihelion #4 focuses on women poets working in electronic and print media. Beautiful graphics started your editor off on one those long questions about text and image, image and text. SMALL FISH LAUNCH NEW LINE, BIG FISH GET BIGGER Poets & Writers notes the launch of a trade paperback imprint by the New York Review of Books. Twelve titles, among them Julio Cortazar's The Winners, are to be released this fall by the venerable journal's new line. According to series editor Edwin Frank, the imprint will focus on reprints of challenging, little- or lesser-known books. According to a June 18th article in the New York Times , Rupert Murdoch's News Corp. has announced its acquisition of Avon Books and William Morrow & Co. With the close of this deal, News Corp.'s HarperCollins will greatly expand its market share. Avon and Morrow together comprise twenty-two imprints that publish 1,000 books every year. The Times also notes recent speculation that Time Warner,which already owns Little, Brown and Warner Books, might be eyeing Simon and Schuster. (See Bookwire at for the most recent Time Warner/S &S developments. Apparently the acquisition is off, but a joint venture-details hazy--is probable.) And, adding fuel to the fire of my despair, the Times also also notes that distributors and bookstores are getting into the consolidation game. Happily, in the wake of the Federal Trade Commission's objection to the deal, Barnes and Noble announced on June 2 that it would not buy Ingram Book Company, the distributor. WDS TO TAKE HOLLYWOOD; TOM CRUISE CHANGES HIS MIND; SUN & MOON PRESS LOSES A BOOK WDS plans to host its first annual writer's workshop and film festival in Los Angeles, in summer, 2000. Hurdles remain, but the outlook is favorable. The workshop/festival will provide an opportunity for story (and perhaps poetry) contest winners to not only meet and mingle with independent filmmakers, but to have their works adapted into film. The films will then be shown at the festival. The event will also feature a screenwriting component run by Pulitzer-winner Robert Olen Butler. The workshop portion of the event will be trail-bossed by Meg Files, veteran of the well known Pima Writer's Workshop. Also on the film front, the imminent opening of Stanley Kubrick's "Eyes Wide Shut" has provoked a flurry of tie-in and rights news. Warner Books will publish the US and Penguin UK the British versions of the book tie-in,which will feature both the screenplay and Arthur Schnitzler's "Dream Story,"on which the film is based. Co-star Cruise had objected to the inclusion of photographs, since the August book releases predate the movie's international release in September. Now, apparently, he's relented. According to Publishers Weekly , Kubrick's acquisition of the rights included control of any new editions, in English, of "Dream Story." When Sun & Moon Press's contract with S. Fischer, the book's German publisher, expired in August of 1998, the latter chose to wait for the chance of film tie-ins rather than renewing its contract with the very independent LA publisher. For news and views from a personal favorite, Women Make Movies' executive director Debra Zimmerman, visit WDS's new film blurbs. A MEGA-SPAMMING MOST SEVERE:IMMATURE PRANK OR NET TERRORISM? On May 31, 1999, the WDS mail server at Mindspring was repeatedly bombed over an indefinite period of time by well over 1200 spam mails, launched for the purpose of clogging up the server and preventing use. Many hours and headaches later, the mails were finally deleted. WDS firmly believes that a staff editor at the Cortland Review was responsible for the assault. WDS and Cortland Review had been at odds over the sharing of a mail list and subsequent harassments leveled at WDS by the editors of Cortland Review. An hour following the last email exchange on the subject, the WDS mail server was effectively crashed by the mega spamming. WDS believes this action was taken to follow up on prior and specific server-attack threats issued by a Cortland Review editor (who had also threatened WDS editors with physical violence). The editors at WDS feel this incident to be very unfortunate and stunning considering the source. An AOL server in Virginia was used. The incident was reported to the Fairfax police authorities as a violation of the Virginia Computer Crimes Act. The investigation is still ongoing. AOL is also looking into the matter. WDS is seeking further legal advice. WDS feels the matter must be aired, if for no other reason than to dissuade further belligerance. SEE THE STARS & HEAR THEIR VOICES AT MM PORTAL Web Del Sol's A-V aggregation, the Multi-Media Portal, currently offers readings by Mark Doty, Toi Derricotte, Rikki Ducornet, James Merrill, W.S. Merwin, Sylvia Plath, among whole multitudes of others. Alternately, if the classics do nothing for you, GO crazy with GO poetry's slam stalwarts Bob Holman, Regie Cabico, Justin Chin and the like. All this fabulousness is available all the time to you, the voracious reader/voyeur/listener, at . DJUNA OVERSEES A NEW COLLECTION OF FICTION AND POETRY AT WDS With the spirit of Djuna Barnes presiding, this batch of new writing features work by Maria Velho da Costa, Diane Williams, Denise Duhamel & Maureen Seaton (together again), Jill Wolfson, Walt Cummins, Moris Farhi, Joan Houlihan, Daryl Scoggins, Michael Hettich, Patricia Ward, CB Follett, R.T.Smith, Neca Stoller, and more. The creative nonfiction choices feature the best of the recent Creative Non-Quiction Contest sponsored by 5_Trope, Brevity, and WDS. Welcome also the new editors of Editor's Picks, who are now putting together EP 3. They are: Joan Houlihan, Paul Beckman, Rachel Callaghan, Shoshanna Wingate, Neal Durando, Vince Colvin, and David Berg-Seiter. Look to for new contributing editors Richard Zenith and Tony Lombardo. PI_R_ROUND: A LOCUS FOR HIGH SCHOOL CREATIVE WRITING PROGRAMS In keeping with its promise to include creative writing programs from around the country,WDS has created a new site called the Mercersburg Review which showcases new writing by high school students at Mercersburg Academy in Pennsylvania. The Mercersburg site will be the first of several HS programs to follow and be collected in a greater website called Pi_R_Round, http://webdelsol.com/Pi_R_Round. The Mercersburg students and their teachers, Joel Chace and Aron Solomon, will facilitate the inclusion of work from other schools. Meanwhile, work continues on the Creative Writing Project begun by WDS and Ohio State University over a year ago. Five universities are currently part of the project, with four more waiting in the wings and soon to be added. Visit the CWP at . MACARTHUR FOUNDATION AWARDS CAMPBELL MCGRATH Poets & Writers reports that the foundation described the author as "one of the most creative poets of his generation." Director of the poetry program at Florida International University, McGrath is the author of Spring Comes to Chicago (Ecco Press, 1996), American Noise (Ecco Press,1993) and Capitalism (Wesleyan University Press,1990). Road Atlas, his new book, is scheduled for July publication. SALINGER'S DAUGHTER TO PUBLISH MEMOIR In the fall of 2000, Simon and Schuster will publish Margaret Salinger's memoir. The author had originally planned to publish with Riverhead, an imprint of Penguin Putnam; however, not satisfied with the deal, she has now signed with S & S's Pocket Books. ********************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 02:56:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: RADIO STATION KPFA, BERKELEY Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Listfellows : I am posting this message from the poet Trane DeVore because I agree with him that the closure of KPFA radio would be the final nail in our coffin. For decades now, increasingly, as corporations swallow up the media, KPFA has been the only source I know of for information whose dissemination is anywhere from distressing to deadly for corporate rule of the world. Believe me, this radio station shows NPR up for the wishy-washy liberals they unfortunately suppose they have to be. During the recent illegal war NATO conducted upon "the former Yugoslavia," via KPFA one heard every evening voices from Belgrade bearing witness to the reality of the destruction wrought in our names and with our money. It was through KPFA I first learned that the cluster-bombs our planes jettisoned over the Adriatic, were killing Italian fishermen---and causing the ports there to be shut down. First learned that, contrary to U.S. spokespersons, many U.S. planes had been shot down---I recall the number, then, before the bombing was stopped, as 37. Clearly, such a station (which also opposed the illegal war on Iraq) is uncomfortable to the Clinton regime; and Marion Berry, his appointee to the body that oversees PBS, is now in charge of the Pacifica Foundation, the non-profit corp that oversees KPFA and 4 (I think) sibling-=stations. The current board of Pacifica illegally rewrote the mission statement, in contempt for KPFA's constituency, to attempt to turn the station into a middle-of-the-road (maindrain) outfit, unlikely under such a policy to disturb any thing or one. They may have notions of going even further. A sign held up at a recent rally here in my home town Sebastopol, claimed to cite a secret memo from Michael Palmer, the new Treasurer-Elect, to Lynn Chadwick, a Pacifica functionary, suggesting KPFA could be sold to corporate buyers for $70 million. Anyone old enough to remember KQED TV before it went to commercials, will know the enormous destruction to its intelligence this commercialism ("Nature Is Brought to You By Exxon") has, with all deliberation, wrought. My god, how many years of "Are You Being Served"? "Are you being screwed" would be closer to the point. Lynn Chadwick used to work for Voice of America, a propaganda station serving corporate interests by presenting an unreal americanism to the (un)suspecting 3rd world. I doubt she did a 180 on her way to Pacifica. The infiltration of the Pacifica board couldnt have been smoother if it had been cooked up in a rightwing thinktank. One notes the timing---Chadwick fires the KPFA station manager the week before KPFA was to celebrate its 50th birthday; Chadwick locks out the employees of this admittedly leftwing station and goes to canned music on July 13, as though to pre-empt any storming of any Bastille. I hear Robert Duncan saying, as more than once he did to me, "It doesn't have to be a plot, it works like one anyway," when I discerned the workings of one in the coincidence of more than one rightwing attack on democratic institutions. Dear gullible Robert. Elan Fabbri, spokesperson for Pacifica, has declared that employees of KPFA who discussed the takeover on the air are "mutinous." To all you language-mechanics and discourse-analysts out there, this word-choice will surely be revealing. It reveals to me the authoritarian nature of Pacifica as currently constituted. Here in America we find mutiny very interesting. This is a nation born of mutiny. We have made "Mutiny on the Bounty" and "The Caine Mutiny" into perennial favorites. When power becomes aloof, unsusceptible of appeal, what recourse have we, but mutiny? I apologize for the length of this introduction to Trane's letter. Please read that, and, if you feel so moved, please spread the word. The more people who know of this, the more difficult it will be for Pacifica to continue its illegal rewriting of its historical mission, the more difficult it will be to sell KPFA down the river. We need to get people all over the world stirred up, we need the protest to reach proportions where even the bought media can't ignore it. KPFA is a strong expression of the conscience of America, and America with a silenced conscience will bring ruin throughout the globe. Further ruin, I should have written. > > >As many of you probably know by now, the Pacifica Foundation has >removed all staff from KPFA and is running canned programs from the >vaults. KPFA, a free-speech bastion and community radio station for >fifty years, is under assault by a parent organization that is >decidedly undemocratic and is seeking to change, against the wishes of >a broad and diverse listenership, the shape of programming at the >station. This crisis began when Pacifica fired KPFA's popular station >manager, Nicole Sawaya, without prior consultation with the staff who >actually work at the station. The only explanation given for Sawaya's >firing was that she was "not a good fit." The paid and unpaid staff at >KPFA began to voice thier dissent on air and were told that they could >not. The imposition of an internal gag rule, an crime against free >speech at KPFA, led to the termination of two prominent >broadcasters--Larry Bensky and Robbie Osman. Pacifica tried to censor >the KPFA evening news, claiming that the crisis at KPFA was "not >news"--as Eileen Alfenderi (sp.?), co-host of the KPFA evening news, >pointed out that the evening news had not been asked to hold back on a >story during the entire 24 years of her tenure. Pacifica hired armed >guards to "protect" the staff at KPFA (the staff is unanimously opposed >to this); these guards were obviously put in place to intimidate the >staff. On Tuesday, Dennis Bernstein broadcast a show about the crisis >at KPFA and was forcibly removed from the station by the armed guards. >The KPFA evening news tried to report on this, but was forced from the >air. Pacifica has been running canned programming on the airwaves ever >since. There has been a massive outcry against this violent and >undemocratic move by the Pacifica Foundation. A series of statements >condemning the Pacifica Foundation's acts has been recorded and should >be available over the web soon. People protesting this action include >Alice Walker, June Jordon, Jerry Brown, and Barbara Lee, just to name a >few. It is imperative that anyone who supports free speech and >anti-corporate community run radio to do what they can to help out at >this critical juncture. KPFA was founded by pacifists and is one of >the only radio stations that regularly produces shows on Latin America, >corporate power, gay and lesbian issues, labor issues, issues that >concern minorities and people of color, environmental issues, and the >list goes on. KPFA is also a vital source for alternative forms of >music and a voice in the local music scene. I urge you to contact your >Representatives, your Congresspeople, and even your local politicians. >We must not lose KPFA. For more information, and to put your name on >the list of contacts for protest actions, please contact >www.savepacifica.net, or >www.radio4all.org/freepacifica. > > >Thank you, > > >Sincerely, Trane DeVore > > > >PLEASE pass this e-mail on to any interested parties. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 13:54:47 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Jill Stengel Subject: august 8 reading--sf, ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit synapse: second sundays at blue bar --presents-- a reading with sarah anne cox and elizabeth treadwell august 8, 2 p.m. blue bar is at 501 broadway, at kearney, in sf enter thru black cat restaurant, same address admission is $2 definite articles by sarah anne cox and eve doe (movements 9-31) by elizabeth treadwell, both new from a+bend press, will be available at the reading. Sarah Anne Cox is the author of Home of Grammar (Double Lucy Books, 1997) and definite articles (a+bend press, forthcoming August 1999) and an editor of Outlet magazine. She also writes for and performs with the rock band dear mary,. Elizabeth Treadwell's collection of prose/poetry, Populace, was published earlier this year by Avec Books. She is also the author of a novel, Eleanor Ramsey: the Queen of Cups (San Francisco State University, 1997); and four chapbooks. Treadwell edits Outlet magazine and Double Lucy Books (users.lanminds.com/dblelucy) in Berkeley, CA, where she also continues work on her Eve Doe project. _________________________________________________ please notify sender if you wish to be removed from this list ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:39:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Poem on 'good things about turning 80' / Chapman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit had to reformat. Chris -- From: "Heather Chapman" Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:26:11 +1000 Hi All, I'm trying to find a poem or some verse on the good things about turning = 80, or old age, ... Any suggestions about where best to look, or some verse itself would be = much appreciated. thanks in advance, Heather. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:43:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: three things : a reading; a redundancy; a resource Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A Reading : Want to let Bay Area residents know of Ken Irby's reading this coming Sunday, August 1, at the Dickerson home, 1605 Berkeley Way, in Berkeley, at 3 p.m. Ken is out from Lawrence, Kansas for a couple weeks, and is currently staying with Bob Grenier, and midweek and thenceforth, will be at Duncan McNaughton's. If you need to contact Ken, backchannel and I'll put you in touch. A Redundancy : My post re KPFA may well have been that for you-all. If so, =CE apologize. I unsubbed when I went to Vancouver, and it was while I was there that I learned that the S (Pacifica) had hit the F (KPFA) for real. In a recent conversation, I learned that sveral posts on this topic were posted to the List during that week when I was unsubbed, posts by Pierre Joris (merci pour =E7a, Pierre) and others, to whom, thanks. A Resource : a listmember recently asked me where he might obtain a copy of my 1980 book _My Poetry_ , long o.p. Yesterday I discovered it is available thru Granary Books, at 212-226-5462, or e-mail at sclay@interport.net . I make this a general post because their list includes many other o.p. books by a variety of poets of possible interest to this List. David. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:50:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Balestrieri, Peter" Subject: Paul Metcalf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi, I'm interested in Paul Metcalf and was hoping that fans might send me synapses of their favorite works. Any word on Metcalf would be appreciated, also any suggestions as to poets that utilize quotation, besides Moore and Jabes whose work I know. Best, Pete ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:42:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Strings, new Flash work at Vispo by Dan Waber / Andrews MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit had to reformat; please see the Welcome Message for guidelines regarding use of HTML (briefly, "no HTML"). Chris -- From: Jim Andrews Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 00:49:24 -0700 Strings is a playful series of Flash pieces about relationships. It also raises questions about the presence/absence of the hand in this medium. Visual artists often criticise the lack of presence of the hand in digital art. In Strings, the hand is and is not present, is transformed, is transforming, is writing, is written, coded, morphed. The guitar; then the electric guitar. The pen; then the electric pen. Strings, by Dan Waber, new at Vispo: http://www.vispo.com/guests/DanWaber ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 14:06:36 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Subject: 4th SV Colloquium Comments: To: british-poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The 4th Sub Voicive Colloquium is being put back to a date in 2000 to be announced. It will almost certainly take place in London. Additional notes backchannel to potential participants follow in the next few days. (Outline details of the colloquium - themes etc are at the SVP site and EPC) . L ------------------------------------------------ The Sub Voicive Poetry website: http://www2.crosswinds.net/members/~subvoicivepoetry/ ------------------------------------------------ Lawrence Upton's website: http://members.spree.com/sip/lizard/index.htm ----------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:30:43 -0700 Reply-To: Robert Freedman Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Freedman Subject: Re: 1999 Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Susan Wheeler To: Sent: Thursday, July 22, 1999 4:58 PM Subject: 1999 Books > For several reasons, I've a question for y'all: what are the best books of > poetry (collections, summations, book-lengths, etc.) published in 1999 > you've come upon? > > Susan I don't know about the best, but Donald Allen's reissued, "New American Poetry ..." is welcome on my shelves. Cole Swensen's "North" is one of my favorites, but it doesn't qualify for 1999, so I'll choose her "Try," which I believe did come out in 1999. I have a feeling "Elegy for the Southern Drawl," by Rodney Jones will not be a big favorite in these here parts, but I'll mention it anyway. My tastes are, I guess, sloppily eclectic, having come from no training and a lot of reading. Hope this helps, Bob Freedman p.s. It looks like this is going to both the Poetics listserv AND the UB Poetics discussion. I'm not a member of the latter, but I hit "Reply to All." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:48:03 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: query In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" thanks to all who have mailed the coach house press info. much appreciated. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:54:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Taylor Brady Subject: Re: RADIO STATION KPFA, BERKELEY In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David, Thanks for passing this along to the list. Those in or around the Bay Area should know that a large-scale rally is being planned for this Saturday, 7/31, assembling at 11am at UC Berkeley's Sproul Plaza and marching to Martin Luther King Park. Also, lunch-hour leafletting continues outside the downtown SF offices of the Fineman Group (?), an expensive PR firm hired illegally hired to do spin control by the Pacifica Foundation (and paid with the contributions of listeners who overwhelmingly oppose the board's recent course of action). News over the SavePacifica e-list this morning is that the Pacifica Board might well be meeting today for the purposes of putting the Palmer "fire sale" memo into action. Those concerned should check out the websites at the end of Trane DeVore's message - each contains addresses, fax numbers, etc., for Pacifica board members, California state legislators, legal defense funds, and other necessaries. It's especially urgent that Californians convince the legislature to conduct its investigation into the possibility of revoking Pacifica's nonprofit charter (something they were planning on doing anyway) on an emergency basis, in order to respond to this immediate threat. Listees in other states might want to check into actions in their area: Is there a local radio station that carries Pacifica programming? Has that station's board passed a resolution yet condemning the illegal power grab by the Pacifica board of directors? Those with academic affiliations might also want to write to the powers that be at U Penn, where board chair (and Clinton shill) Mary Frances Berry is a faculty member, to express their concern over her obvious failure to understand that university's free speech policies. More on this as things develop... Best, Taylor -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of david bromige Sent: Friday, July 23, 1999 2:56 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: RADIO STATION KPFA, BERKELEY Listfellows : I am posting this message from the poet Trane DeVore because I agree with him that the closure of KPFA radio would be the final nail in our coffin. For decades now, increasingly, as corporations swallow up the media, KPFA has been the only source I know of for information whose dissemination is anywhere from distressing to deadly for corporate rule of the world. Believe me, this radio station shows NPR up for the wishy-washy liberals they unfortunately suppose they have to be. During the recent illegal war NATO conducted upon "the former Yugoslavia," via KPFA one heard every evening voices from Belgrade bearing witness to the reality of the destruction wrought in our names and with our money. It was through KPFA I first learned that the cluster-bombs our planes jettisoned over the Adriatic, were killing Italian fishermen---and causing the ports there to be shut down. First learned that, contrary to U.S. spokespersons, many U.S. planes had been shot down---I recall the number, then, before the bombing was stopped, as 37. Clearly, such a station (which also opposed the illegal war on Iraq) is uncomfortable to the Clinton regime; and Marion Berry, his appointee to the body that oversees PBS, is now in charge of the Pacifica Foundation, the non-profit corp that oversees KPFA and 4 (I think) sibling-=stations. The current board of Pacifica illegally rewrote the mission statement, in contempt for KPFA's constituency, to attempt to turn the station into a middle-of-the-road (maindrain) outfit, unlikely under such a policy to disturb any thing or one. They may have notions of going even further. A sign held up at a recent rally here in my home town Sebastopol, claimed to cite a secret memo from Michael Palmer, the new Treasurer-Elect, to Lynn Chadwick, a Pacifica functionary, suggesting KPFA could be sold to corporate buyers for $70 million. Anyone old enough to remember KQED TV before it went to commercials, will know the enormous destruction to its intelligence this commercialism ("Nature Is Brought to You By Exxon") has, with all deliberation, wrought. My god, how many years of "Are You Being Served"? "Are you being screwed" would be closer to the point. Lynn Chadwick used to work for Voice of America, a propaganda station serving corporate interests by presenting an unreal americanism to the (un)suspecting 3rd world. I doubt she did a 180 on her way to Pacifica. The infiltration of the Pacifica board couldnt have been smoother if it had been cooked up in a rightwing thinktank. One notes the timing---Chadwick fires the KPFA station manager the week before KPFA was to celebrate its 50th birthday; Chadwick locks out the employees of this admittedly leftwing station and goes to canned music on July 13, as though to pre-empt any storming of any Bastille. I hear Robert Duncan saying, as more than once he did to me, "It doesn't have to be a plot, it works like one anyway," when I discerned the workings of one in the coincidence of more than one rightwing attack on democratic institutions. Dear gullible Robert. Elan Fabbri, spokesperson for Pacifica, has declared that employees of KPFA who discussed the takeover on the air are "mutinous." To all you language-mechanics and discourse-analysts out there, this word-choice will surely be revealing. It reveals to me the authoritarian nature of Pacifica as currently constituted. Here in America we find mutiny very interesting. This is a nation born of mutiny. We have made "Mutiny on the Bounty" and "The Caine Mutiny" into perennial favorites. When power becomes aloof, unsusceptible of appeal, what recourse have we, but mutiny? I apologize for the length of this introduction to Trane's letter. Please read that, and, if you feel so moved, please spread the word. The more people who know of this, the more difficult it will be for Pacifica to continue its illegal rewriting of its historical mission, the more difficult it will be to sell KPFA down the river. We need to get people all over the world stirred up, we need the protest to reach proportions where even the bought media can't ignore it. KPFA is a strong expression of the conscience of America, and America with a silenced conscience will bring ruin throughout the globe. Further ruin, I should have written. > > >As many of you probably know by now, the Pacifica Foundation has >removed all staff from KPFA and is running canned programs from the >vaults. KPFA, a free-speech bastion and community radio station for >fifty years, is under assault by a parent organization that is >decidedly undemocratic and is seeking to change, against the wishes of >a broad and diverse listenership, the shape of programming at the >station. This crisis began when Pacifica fired KPFA's popular station >manager, Nicole Sawaya, without prior consultation with the staff who >actually work at the station. The only explanation given for Sawaya's >firing was that she was "not a good fit." The paid and unpaid staff at >KPFA began to voice thier dissent on air and were told that they could >not. The imposition of an internal gag rule, an crime against free >speech at KPFA, led to the termination of two prominent >broadcasters--Larry Bensky and Robbie Osman. Pacifica tried to censor >the KPFA evening news, claiming that the crisis at KPFA was "not >news"--as Eileen Alfenderi (sp.?), co-host of the KPFA evening news, >pointed out that the evening news had not been asked to hold back on a >story during the entire 24 years of her tenure. Pacifica hired armed >guards to "protect" the staff at KPFA (the staff is unanimously opposed >to this); these guards were obviously put in place to intimidate the >staff. On Tuesday, Dennis Bernstein broadcast a show about the crisis >at KPFA and was forcibly removed from the station by the armed guards. >The KPFA evening news tried to report on this, but was forced from the >air. Pacifica has been running canned programming on the airwaves ever >since. There has been a massive outcry against this violent and >undemocratic move by the Pacifica Foundation. A series of statements >condemning the Pacifica Foundation's acts has been recorded and should >be available over the web soon. People protesting this action include >Alice Walker, June Jordon, Jerry Brown, and Barbara Lee, just to name a >few. It is imperative that anyone who supports free speech and >anti-corporate community run radio to do what they can to help out at >this critical juncture. KPFA was founded by pacifists and is one of >the only radio stations that regularly produces shows on Latin America, >corporate power, gay and lesbian issues, labor issues, issues that >concern minorities and people of color, environmental issues, and the >list goes on. KPFA is also a vital source for alternative forms of >music and a voice in the local music scene. I urge you to contact your >Representatives, your Congresspeople, and even your local politicians. >We must not lose KPFA. For more information, and to put your name on >the list of contacts for protest actions, please contact >www.savepacifica.net, or >www.radio4all.org/freepacifica. > > >Thank you, > > >Sincerely, Trane DeVore > > > >PLEASE pass this e-mail on to any interested parties. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 12:06:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: WCW on women MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Since there is some discussion about WCW's special feelings for Black women, this comment of his might be considered in piecing together the bigger picture: "Suppose all women were delightful, the ugly, the short, the fat, the intellectual, the stupid, even the old-- and making a virtue of their qualities, each for each, made themselves available to men, some man, any man--without greed. What a world it could be-- for women!... Take for instance the fat: If she were not too self-conscious, did not regret that she were not lissome and quick afoot but gave herself, full-belly to the sport! What a game it would make! All would then be, in the best sense, beautiful--entertaining to the mind as to the eye but especially to that part of a man which we so mistakenly call the intellect... He would be free, freed to the full completion of his desires." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 14:00:16 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: RADIO STATION KPFA, BERKELEY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re: KPFA In response to David Bromige's great note and other list members' contributions, I have sent the following letter to Dr. Mary Frances Berry and other members of the National Pacific Board. I urge others to write. I have provided the Board member contact info as well as other important contacts and events at the end of my letter: >>Dear Dr. Mary Fances Berry: I am writing to protest what I understand is your proposal to the National Pacific Board to sell member owned station KPFA. As a listening member of the San Francisco Bay Area community, I am appalled by this proposal, your support of the current station's repression, as well as your continued false statements about the demographics and the leadership of the station. That you have resorted to the old George Bush 'race card' tactic (in this case using "white middle aged men") to attempt to undermine racial and gender inclusive support for the station is more than appalling. Instead of true, in fact, your actions can only be perceived as a cover for the kind corporate carpet-bagging that has already compromised much of what currently constitutes National Public Radio and Television. The Northern California community raised the funds to build and support this station. Part of the reason for our support is to protect the station from deals with "sponsors." I ask that you and the national board respect the integrity of its foundations and put your energies either into rebuilding our confidence, or simply resigning from your positions. Stephen Vincent<< r. Mary Frances Berry (202) 337-0382 mfberry@sas.upenn.edu Ken Ford (202) 822-0228 kford@nahb.com David Acosta (713) 926-4604 dgacpa@juno.com Jewelle Taylor-Gibbs (510) 643-6662 jgibbs@uclink4.berkeley.edu June Makela (212) 673-9225 junemakela@aol.com Frank Millspaugh (212) 741-0839 fmillspa@aol.com ALSO: CALL OR E-MAIL YOUR CONGRESSIONAL REPRESENTATIVE TODAY... ESPECIALLY ANNA ESHOO (202) 225-8104 annagram@hr.house.gov AND BARBARA LEE (202) 225-2661 AND URGE THEM TO CONTACT MARY FRANCES BERRY IMMEDIATELY! ALSO: CALL OR E-MAIL SENATOR BARBARA BOXER AND URGE THAT SHE GET INVOLVED! (202) 224-3553 senator@boxer.senate.gov ALSO: CALL STATE SENATOR JOHN BURTON (916) 445-1412 AND ASSEMBLYMAN ANTONIO VILLARAIGOSA (916) 445-8343 AND URGE THAT THEIR LEGISLATIVE HEARING ON PACIFICA'S FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY BE HELD ON AN EMERGENCY BASIS! AND PLAN TO COME TO OUR MASS RALLY THIS SATURDAY...7/31... AT HISTORIC "FREE SPEECH" SPROUL PLAZA ON THE U.C. BERKELEY CAMPUS AT 11 A.M. (March past KPFA to downtown Martin Luther King Jr. Park for 1:30 rally.) http://www.savepacifica.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 14:04:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jamie Perez Subject: Petrarch meet Mr. Newton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Laura and Petrarch: An Intriguing Case of Cyclical Love Dynamics by Sergio Rinaldi http://epubs.siam.org/sam-bin/dbq/article/30592 I think this may be very interesting to some on this list (see abstract below). First to note that it is from the SIAM (Science and Industry Advance with Mathematics!) Journal on Applied Mathematics [the exclamation is mine]. Maybe you've already seen it? Maybe it's an Alan Sokial(?)-like hoax for all I know, I haven't read it yet, but am curious. Maybe Sergio is on this list? Maybe he should be. Comes in convenient PDF and many other options. jamie.p ............... Abstract: Three ordinary differential equations are proposed to model the dynamics of love between Petrarch, a celebrated Italian poet of the 14th century, and Laura, a beautiful but married lady. The equations are nonlinear but can be studied through the singular perturbation approach if the inspiration of the poet is assumed to have very slow dynamics. In such a case, explicit conditions are found in the appeals of Laura and Petrarch and in their behavioral parameters that guarantee the existence of a globally stable slow-fast limit cycle. These conditions are consistent with the relatively clear portrait of the two personalities one gets while reading the poems addressed to Laura. On the basis of the scarce and only qualitative information available, the calibration of the parameters is also performed; the result is that the calibrated model shows that the poet's emotions followed for about 20 years a quite regular cyclical pattern ranging from the extremes of ecstasy to despair. All these findings agree with the recent results of Frederic Jones, who, through a detailed stylistic and linguistic analysis of the poems inspired by Laura, has discovered Petrarch's emotional cycle in a fully independent way. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:02:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Terry Diggory Subject: WCW Australia/NZ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_3600650==_" --=====================_3600650==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" --=====================_3600650==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Listmates: For a study of the reception of the US poet William Carlos Williams in Australia and New Zealand, I would appreciate references, evidence, impressions, especially from those on the scene. How has Williams's work come to be known? Has it been particularly noticeable at certain dates? In what ways has its reception been part of larger developments, e.g, a turning away from British models, an opening to modernist or post-modernist aesthetics? Has the presence of Williams been felt in other arts besides literature? In addition to such general issues, cases of local transformations of Williams's much quoted poem "The Red Wheelbarrow" are of particular interest. To prime the pump, here are some sources I am already familiar with (as it happens, they represent New Zealand more than Australia): 1) Williams's 1947 "Letter to an Australian Editor," written for Flexmore Hudson at POETRY: THE AUSTRALIAN INTERNATIONAL QUARTERLY OF VERSE. (Background on this editor or journal would be welcome.) 2) Elizabeth Smither's YOU'RE VERY SEDUCTIVE, WILLIAM CARLOS WILLIAMS (1978). (I know of this as a title but have not seen the text itself), 3) C. K. Stead's 1979 essay "From Wystan to Carlos Modern and Modernism in Recent New Zealand Poetry" 4) Allen Curnow's 1982 essay "Olson as Oracle: 'Projective Verse' Thirty Years On" 5) the 1984 short experimental film THE RED WHEELBARROW by NZ artist Bridget Sutherland 6) an article by Harriet Margolis on the Sutherland film, published in a 1996 issue of NEW ZEALAND STUDIES Thanks in advance for your thoughts! Apologies for cross-posting. Please backchannel response to tdiggory@skidmore.edu or post to list, as seems appropriate. Terry Diggory English Dept. Skidmore College Saratoga Springs, NY 12866-1632 USA --=====================_3600650==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" --=====================_3600650==_-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 23:18:48 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Readers Organization: Re*Map Subject: Re: 1999 Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I vote for Susan Thackery's first book, pub. by Listening Chamber, empty GATE. Todd Baron ReMap ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:54:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Patrick @Silverplume" Subject: Re: 1999 Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain For starters: Try - Cole Swensen The Removes - Andrew Joron (pub. date states 1998, but it didn't appear till this year). Polyverse - Lee Ann Brown Patrick Pritchett ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:09:47 -0800 Reply-To: ostashev@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eugene Ostashevsky Subject: DADAFEST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 9X9 RECOMMENDS THIS. 2 OF US ARE IN IT ON SATURDAY. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ D A D A F E S T two completely different shows friday and saturday july 30th and 31st SOMARTS gallery - 934 brannan & 9th ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ san francisco is a lot like the zurich of 1916 that produced the original DADA movement: fiercely cosmopolitan, artistically charged, and vibrating with absurd energy. the DADA movement started in zurich with a series of amazing cabarets, too, full of weird performances strange music odd little films and grotesque happenings. we're hoping to tap and generate some of that anarchistic, iconoclastic spirit in our two-night homage to DADA at SOMARTs gallery. we have san francisco's own amazing dancing Devil-ettes designing something special for the show. plus: Naked DADAheads, that yuppie-eradifier Kevin Keating (the artist formerly known as "nestor makhno"), the amazing Frank Moore, the venerable Bay Area Dadaists (with erstwhile mailart maestro Bill Gaglione) with a tribute to the FLUXUS movement of the '60s, Hank Hyena with a strange slide show, a weird group called "vainglorious" doing their impression of Franz Kafka, Mikl-em, King Ham and a host of others...as well as nudists, oreo cookies, a Velcro symphony, seeing eye dogs, mud people, a full-on DADA invocation and a Hugo Ball Memorial Photo booth. Friday and Saturday nights, July 30th and 31st, at 730pm: SOMARTS gallery is going to be jumping. tickets are $7-10 donation (no one turned away for lack of funds). sign on the dada line, m.i.blue & katy bell (for more information write uncleblue@earthlink.net or call 415.861.1554 or visit our webpage at: http://www.doitall.com/dada/) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:54:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Naropa from a distance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Colleen Seltz (VP of enrollment at Naropa) requested that I forward this announcement. Chris -- From:DEMSEM@aol.com Date: 7/28/99 8:58 PM +0000 ANNOUNCING NAROPA =85.. FROM A DISTANCE Beginning Fall Semester 1999, we are pleased to announce that the Naropa Institute will be offering select classes from the heart of our unique academic curriculum, from a distance. The Naropa Institute is a private fully accredited liberal arts college in = Boulder, Colorado, characterized by a Buddhist inspired heritage and a unique contemplative approach to education. Naropa's Department of Writing and Poetics, inaugurated as the Jack = Kerouac School of Disembodied 25 years ago by Allen Ginsberg and Ann Waldman = offers accredited BA and MFA degrees and hosts the internationally known Summer Writing Program each year. In Fall 99 Naropa will be offering six Writing classes as well as classes = in Religion and Psychology, via the World Wide Web using the latest Internet technology. All classes are offer for credit and are available to = non-degree seeking students as well as currently matriculated students. Please share this information with those who may be interested. For further information = and details please visit our web site at www.naropa.edu. The classes in Writing available for Fall 99 are as follows: WRITER'S CRAFT NCCA 250e - 3 credits - Bill Scheffel Course Description "Poetry is not an expression of the party line. It's that time of night, lying in bed, thinking what you really think, making the private world public; that's what the poet does". Allen Ginsberg Although this is a writing workshop in creative non-fiction, Allen Ginsberg's statement expresses the heart of the class. Our goal is polished and exciting prose that also reveals the gifts, nuances and idiosyncrasies of each participant's life. Student will develop the craft of writing and the courage to tell their own stories. We will offer feedback to each other in a community spirit of trust and encouragement. Many ideas and methods will = be given to spark the creative process. Reading from a sourcebook of essays = and stories (and even some poetry) by writers such as Annie Dillard, Edward Abbey, James Baldwin, Margueritte Duras and many others will be an = integral part of class. Natalie Goldberg's Writing Down the Bones will be a = required text. Open to writers of any level of experience. About the Instructor Bill Scheffel has an MFA in Writing and Poetics from the Naropa Institute = where he has taught Shambhala Meditation Practicum for eight years and, = for three years, Writer's Craft. He has taught his writing workshop Chance, Synchronicty & Mind-Writing in Boulder, Colorado and various U.S. cities. = He has published two chapbooks, has read his poetry on National Public Radio and has been published in Bombay Gin, Owen-Wister Review, Water & Stone and other publications. THE EXPOSITORY ESSAY WRI 534e- 3 credits - Lee Christopher Course Description In French essay means an attempt, a test, or a trial. In this course, students will experiment with their own thoughts within the structure of = the essay's various forms. They will explore many of the possibilities = creative nonfiction affords them. For models, students will read essays by Montaigne, Virginia Woolf, Lu Hsun, Carlos Fuentes, Jorge Luis Borges, Ezra Pound, Henry Thoreau, James Baldwin, Andrienne Rich, Annie Dillard, Alice Walker, = George Orwell, William Carlos Williams, E.B. White, Andrei Codrescu, and Ralph Waldo Emerson. To further broaden their perspective, students will use as model essayists the "Beats" such as Allen Ginsberg, Jack Kerouac, and William Burroughs. The most common grammar and punctuation problems will be addressed. In addition, each student will learn to recognize and correct = his or her own error patterns. As part of the writing process, time will be spent in reflection upon the ways in which problems were addressed and solved in = our essays. About the Instructor Lee Christopher M.Ed., Tulane University; M.F.A., Writing and Poetics, The = Naropa Institute. In addition to teaching at Naropa, Lee teaches English = at Metropolitan State College of Denver and is the executive editor of The = New Censorship. Since 1996, she has been Peace Jam Foundation's lead writer = for curricula for Nobel Peace Laureates Betty Williams, Rigoberta Menchu Tum, Oscar Arias, Desmond Tutu, Nelson Mandela, Aung San Suu Kyi, Mairead Corrigan Maguire, and His Holiness the Dali Lama. Her most recent chapbook is The Hunt. REBEL ANGELS WRI 500e- 3 credits - Lee Christopher Course Description In this course students will study the history of the "beat generation" = with special emphasis on the writings the writers of this phenomenal era produced. Students will use as models Allen Ginsberg, Jack Kerouac, Gregory Corso, William Burroughs, Neal Cassady, Peter Orlovsky, Diane Di Prima, John Wieners, Amiri Baraka, Joanne Kyger, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Lew Welch, Lenore Kandel, Philip Whalen, Bob Kaufman, Michael McClure, Gary Synder and = others. Students will come to understand the provocativeness and durability of = Beat Literature. In addition, students will write their own visions in the multiple forms taught us by these courageous writers of the "beat generation." About the Instructor Lee Christopher M.Ed., Tulane University; M.F.A., Writing and Poetics, The = Naropa Institute. In addition to teaching at Naropa, Lee teaches English = at Metropolitan State College of Denver and is the executive editor of The = New Censorship. Since 1996, she has been Peace Jam Foundation's lead writer = for curricula for Nobel Peace Laureates Betty Williams, Rigoberta Menchu Tum, Oscar Arias, Desmond Tutu, Nelson Mandela, Aung San Suu Kyi, Mairead Corrigan Maguire, and His Holiness the Dali Lama. Her most recent chapbook is The Hunt. POETRY WORKSHOP: GREAT COMPANIONS WRI 539e- 3 credits - Lisa Jarnot Course Description Dante said to Virgil "Thou art my master and my author". What poet would you name as Dante names Virgil? The focus of this workshop is poetic lineage, = imitation and influence. We'll look at specific examples (Allen Ginsberg and William Blake, Frank O'Hara and Vladimir Mayakovsky, Bernadette Mayer and Catullus) and we'll also explore the ways that we might expand our own poetry by imitating various styles and forms. About theInstructor Lisa Jarnot is the author of Some Other Kind of Mission, Sea Lyrics and Heliopolis. Her second full-length collection of poems, Ring of Fire, is forthcoming from Zoland Books. She is also the co-editor of An Anthology = of New (American) Poetry (Talisman House, 1998) and was the editor of the Poetry Project Newsletter from 1996-1998. She has taught classes in = writing and literature at Brown University, Long Island University, The Naropa Institute and The Poetry Project in New York City. She is currently = writing a biography of the San Francisco poet Robert Duncan. During the Spring of = 2000 she will be a visiting professor at the University of Colorado, Boulder. LITERATURE SEMINAR: THE FEELING TONE WRI 530e- 3 credits - Bobbie Louise Hawkins Course Description In this Reading and Writing seminar we will address the work of four = writers as writers: namely, how do they achieve their unique tone and diction; and = what can we use of their mode in our own work. This is not primarily a writing class, it is a Literature class, but I teach writing to beginning writers and I have found this approach to be useful for non-writers as = well. The writers and books will be (in this order):Evan Connell (Mrs. Bridge), Fay Weldon (Life and Loves of a She-Devil) Michael Ondaatje (Coming Through Slaughter) Colette (Earthly Paradise). About the Instructor Bobbie Louise Hawkins has written twelve books of fiction, non-fiction, poetry and performance monologues as well as a one-hour play for the PBS series, The Listening Ear. Flying Fish has a CD of her performance, "Live = at the Great American Music Hall". In 1981 she participated in the "One World = Poetry Festival" in Amsterdam and the same year was awarded a Fellowship = in Literature from the National Endowment for the Arts. The Los Angeles Times = said: "She excels at the short take, the oblique view, and the fundamental = nugget of actuality". The New York Times wrote: "A superb impressionist, = as well as a salty prose writer." She has performed her work at the Joseph = Papp Public Theater, Bottom Line, and Folk City in NYC, at The Great American Music Hall in San Francisco, at the Canterbury Festival and the Poetry Society in England where she worked with Apples and Snakes. In 1988 she = was invited by Anne Waldman to oversee the Prose Track in the MFA Writing Program. PROSE WORKSHOP: SCULPTING PROSE WRI 541e - 3 credits - T. Burke, Jr. Course Description For prose writers who want to achieve familiarity with dramatic structure. = For dramatists looking to infuse more lyricism into their work. The course = will explore the singular demands of narrative and dramatic writing.... Determining the form in which a story can be most effectively presented. Revealing character through action and the dynamics of = dialogue. Adapting classic and original prose into dramatic action. Plus, what constitutes a scene. How classic dramatic structure can be applied to a narrative. Self-editing as a creative skill.... At the end of the course, each writer will have a vivid picture of what form best suits his/her = style, approach and sensibility and will possess a much stronger command of their = craft. About the Instructor T. Burke, Jr. has a Masters in Writing and Poetics from the Naropa Institute. Last year, he received an Honor's Award from New Millennium Writing. He = is the co-author of 'American Reel' -- a feature film starring David = Carradine and Mariel Hemingway, currently in release; and 'Stripmall Bohemia' -- a novel which has been optioned for film by Upside Down Pictures. With writer-performer Vicki Lewis, he is adapting 'For the Love of Esme' for network television. He is a three time Fellow to The Virginia Center for = the Creative Arts and has been presented with a Cable Ace Award and an = R.I.A.A. Golden Disc. Since 1986, he has been a member of the Writers Guild of America. Please visit our web site at www.naropa.edu for further information and to = pre-register, as well as for listings of other online classes available. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 12:21:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Stefans Subject: Re: Pound and the Bollingen Prize Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I tend to think we're revolving around the old issue of the "Politics of Poetic Form" here since, in someone like Bernstein's reading of the Pisan Cantos, the form of the poem actually undermines what would be the non- or supra-poetical work of the "man." That is, it seems the essays by the man, which we take to be a literary product of Pound as the "man of action" don't find their fulfillment or their natural corollary in his poems, which one would consider the works of the "man of thinking." So talk of the "man" is split here since we know this person two ways, via an activity which we normally associate with biography -- what the guy did when he wasn't writing poetry -- and the activity we normally associate with the "work," that seemingly isolated ("art-for-art's sake"), timeless artifact. If we are to take Bernstein's reading of Pound in "Pounding Fascism" seriously, we wouldn't have any "man" left over to hold against the prize or the literature -- the split would be too profound. If you want to imagine a gross exaggeration of what this paradigm suggests (though who's more exaggerated than Pound), imagine Robert Mapplethorpe leading a double life as a Washington lobbyist, or some Xtian rightist, pushing for something like strict policing of the internet, mandatory short haircuts for men under the age of twenty, prayer before every meal, or well just imagine him being some sort of obsessed (sexually repressed) outsider politico pushing for centralized, conservative values (and symbols) that run up against his art work. Then, when it is time to offer him a prize, you would be in the position of asking whether the "work" is the same thing as the "man". It's not unimaginable that even a Mapplethorpe could be split this way, since there are all sorts of breaks like this in twentieth century art, it seems, such as: Why wasn't Robert Smithson an environmentalist? (I know because I read his writings, but it's surprising.) Why does Clarence Major prefer the poetry of John Berryman over the "New American" poets? (cf. Mackey on Major in Discrepant Engagement). What are Ian Hamilton Finlay's political views? (I.e. why is he, who in many ways seems so much milder in temperament than a Bruce Andrews, more clearly agrarian-rightist-revolutionary and someone like BA a leftist?) Who, then, becomes the more "elitist" artist, the rural aristocratic Finlay or the urban cosmopolitan Andrews? And why do the poetics of a Marxist like Hugh MacDiarmid seem invariably more conservative than Finlay's? A recent one I came across: apparently the German painter Gerhardt Richter was the prophet of pop art back in the day, introducing or at least championing Warhol and those folk, but now he seems to clearly on the monumental side -- large-scale abstract paintings, with a near classical sense of balance, or perhaps romantic sense of sturm and drang -- with someone like Kiefer in opposition to the "democratic" vision of someone like Polke. How does that happen? Why are poets like Drew Milne and Jeremy Prynne, the former of whom is a recognized Marxist scholar, more or less perceived, by the Americans aware of their work, as somewhat reclusive, decidedly "highbrow" poets (I think in the tradition of Thomas Gray)? (My question is also whether Milne recognizes any sort of camaraderie among the American language poets since his introduction to the anthology of Marxist literary criticism he edited with Terry Eagleton seemed to suggest a parallel series of ideas, despite the very different temperament.) (Sorry to present an exclusively male list here, but nobody comes to mind right now as presenting this sort of dilemma, though I guess Moriko Mori, who's a bit young to be well known, walks a pretty interesting line between conservative "Buddhism" and her techno-narcissistic-adoration.) Actually, more women do come to mind: why is Barbara Kruger using techniques explored by proto-fascist artists, including some of their color schemes, to present purportedly progressive feminist progaganda? Is this art or social work? Joan Houlihan on 07/22/99 09:39:55 AM Please respond to UB Poetics discussion group To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU cc: (bcc: Brian Stefans/Trade/RandomHouse) Subject: Re: Pound and the Bollingen Prize Well, not exactly. I agree that: The work is not the man. The prize is not the man. Therefore, the man is neither the prize nor the work. However: The prize is the both work and the man. There has to be work to be a prize; and, by implication, there has to be a man (or woman) to be work. The ratio of man to prize increases in relation to how "political" the selection criteria are. In general, I feel that ethical considerations of the writer's life should be entirely separate from considerations of the work--not that ethical concerns shouldn't be considered, discussed, dissected, etc., just that they shouldn't be seen as germane to the work. At all. A close-up of anyone's life reveals multiple layers, "selves" and contradictions--the study of personality is an interesting one. However, in the case of a writer, their biography is merely another footnote, and maybe a totally misleading footnote at that. A critique of the work, on the other hand, is much closer to the writer's "self." >The work is not the man, neither is the prize the work. The prize, as i >think you are saying, is a political gesture apart from the work. > > > > > > >_______________________________________________________________ > >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > > > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 00:58:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Manifest Destiny In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990721095601.0114a3a0@mail.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >If I understand Hilton correctly (Hilton, are you there?), the _secular_ >use of the Book of Revelations was more as an available source for rhetoric >supportive of a very different kind of millenarianism than the descent of >chaos/reign of the saints/end of time kind. I'm willing to be corrected Okay. If you take a look, you'll see that it's the Book of Revelation George Bowering. , fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 00:58:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: $3.50: Summer vacation in Scandinavia! In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I think I've discovered where poetry might be, had there never been a >"Wasteland" to set us back 30 years! With the recent interest in >international poetry demonstrated by such publications as Boundary2, Interest in international poetry is not all that recent in places other than the USA George Bowering. , fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 00:58:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: 1999 Books In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990722195805.0079adc0@is.nyu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >For several reasons, I've a question for y'all: what are the best books of >poetry (collections, summations, book-lengths, etc.) published in 1999 >you've come upon? > >Susan For me, they have included Erin Moure's _A Frame of the Book_ and Wayde Compton's _49th Parallel Psalm_ George Bowering. , fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:24:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Shoemaker Subject: Re: Modernists in the basement In-Reply-To: <11D837E2081@student.highland.cc.il.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII That quote from Williams is new to me, and certainly disturbing. And I agree that it's the sort of statment we don't want to forget about, but need to try to understand. For me, though, that understanding involves asking how someone with a view of culture as interesting, complex and "open" as Williams's lapses into this sort of thing. It *still* seems to me ridiculous to put him in the same category as Pound as an anti-Semite, unless you want to make the category meaningless. Pound's race-hatred is rabid, and his calls for fascist "antisepsis," i.e. genocide, are clear. I can't imagine Williams making those Italian radio broadcasts any more than I can imagine Pound writing "At the Ballgame." Another pretty instructive exercise is to compare, say, *Jefferson and/or Mussolini* with *In the American*. My point, again, is not to heroize Williams, but to look at what he actually said (yes, *including* comments like the one we're talking about here) and did, and then to weigh the whole record. We might even find, as I tried to show in the piece I posted earlier, that there's some interesting (social) thinking going on...stuff we might miss if we aren't careful. Alright, that's probably enough from me on this subject, and I have to go back to packing boxes for a move in the 96 degree swelter... Steve ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 17:57:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Stefans Subject: Re: persona Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Dodie, You're probably right about this, I was just being picky with words in a way. There are many levels of impersonation that you can point to, a virtual rainbow coalition. For instance glammy-camp personas are hardly personae on the level of, say, Al Gore being coached into the presidential persona. The persona you write about, the cocktail party one, reminds me of the movie "Safe." There are varieties of transvetitism which I think would be interesting terms of poetry; my own explorations into this involve a brief stint as Arthur Rimbaud in a "love" poem called "Verl" (a prose piece inspired by the letters, which I guess kind of ties into Acker's personas), poems as a fake English poet (partly inspired by a certain fake Japanese poet), and the various times I've done my own pip-squeaky imitations of Pound, etc. I'd like it if more poets were transvestites; most of us are rather boring in normal life so why not, and if fiction's becoming so passe next to film and "new sentence" poetry then there aren't many venues for identity performance left for a writer. And since personae become, in their ways, symbols, they surface above the semiotic as social constructs that people can understand without having to become subject to them, since the falseness is so foregrounded; i.e. there would be more meat on the bones of a deconstructive poetics than say language-style all-over razzling and hyper-collage aesthetics would seem to permit. Entire senates of puppet plastic personalities, but always tinged with the "pathos" of discipline and responsibility, of a sort that poetry only seems capable of. But what about when writers adopt certain tones and methods in their writing -- I think of Jennifer Moxley here, she's probably the only one right now -- which, in their stateliness of pace and foregrounded anachronism (i.e writing as if certain 18th century value systems, such as the emphasis on "sensibility", were still the ascendant, and countering other values such as those centered around the "cult of speed" and information, from Marinetti to O'Hara, for one), go up against any easy romantic notion of "sincerity" and yet are actually using these styles as a way to break back into the "lyric," i.e. the pure soul as speaking, "suffering" thing. Is this a sort of transvetitism (without the overtones of freakishness, but with the cross-gendered aspect)? Dodie Bellamy on 07/21/99 03:20:17 PM Please respond to UB Poetics discussion group To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU cc: (bcc: Brian Stefans/Trade/RandomHouse) Subject: persona At 9:30 AM -0400 7/21/99, Brian Stefans wrote: > >Consequently, I don't know what your jibe on "feigning a persona" has to do >with what I wrote since I didn't write about personae, nor about "feigning" >one (which is kind of impossible, people usually "adopt" a persona, or >"feign" a personality -- "feigning a persona" would put you two steps >behind the surface). Brian, I'm intrigued by this idea of feigning a persona as opposed to adopting one. Adopting one sounds like putting it on proudly, even buying into it. Feigning one reminds me of those endless social occasions when I've known what kind of persona was required but I couldn't buy into it, didn't have the heart to fully embrace it, or was lacking in the social skills to pull it off. In those instances, I'd say that feigning a persona would be much more appropriate a category. An awkward ineffectiveness. Cocktail parties come to mind as a dangerous site. Also much of the humor on TV sitcoms, not that I watch them enough to be an authority. In writing, too, I think this comes up. Kathy Acker's personas, for instance, their delightfulness is in the sense of feigning rather than adopting. Pathos unbalancing power. When I hit reply to all in Eudora, the speech function kicked in for some reason and my computer started reading your message outloud to me in this mechanical reverb voice. Creepy, but appropriate somehow. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 18:59:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Parks Subject: Action Appeal 2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Pacifica Foundation's executive committee is to vote on sale of KPFA this evening or tomorrow a.m. If you haven't already, please consider contacting the names below with statements of protest. Poet Jack Folie has (had) a poetry show on KPFA Wednesdays. Can his silence and invisibility during the struggle be taken as pro-Pacifica? Or he may know much more about the dispute and recent history of disputes than the average listener and so have opinions or insights that preclude membership in the movement; if anyone is familiar with him, please beseach him to elucidate publicly. ______________________________________ Despite weeks of denial from Mary Frances Berry, Lynn Chadwick, and their various public relations spokespeople, PACIFICA RADIO IS PREPARING TO AUTHORIZE THE SALE OF THE NATION'S FIRST FREE SPEECH, COMMUNITY CONTROLLED RADIO STATION. The vote could come as early as today (Wednesday 7/28) in a telephone meeting of the Pacifica executive committee. Pacifica national board sources say a telephone discussion yesterday about the Pacifica crisis was dominated, as usual, by Dr. Berry, who insisted that KPFA be sold. She said it had become "unmanageable." (KPFA WAS, OF COURSE, "MANAGEABLE" FOR FIFTY YEARS BEFORE BERRY INSTALLED CHADWICK AND HER WRECKING CREW OF ARMED GUARDS, LAWYERS, PERSONNEL TERMINATION SPECIALISTS AND PUBLIC RELATIONS FLACKS.) KPFA, located on the commercial FM band, may be worth as much as $75 million to Pacifica. There were also indications in yesterday's board meeting that Berry and Chadwick's actions may be bankrupting Pacifica, and that the executive committee may seek a large (perhaps as much as $5 million) loan to pay for their enormous "security," legal, personnel, and public relations expenses. THIS LOAN WOULD ALMOST CERTAINLY DEFAULT, GIVING PACIFICA ONE MORE EXCUSE TO SELL KPFA. PLEASE CONTACT IMMEDIATELY: EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Dr. Mary Frances Berry (202) 337-0382 mfberry@sas.upenn.edu Ken Ford (202) 822-0228 kford@nahb.com David Acosta (713) 926-4604 dgacpa@juno.com Jewelle Taylor-Gibbs (510) 643-6662 jgibbs@uclink4.berkeley.edu June Makela (212) 673-9225 junemakela@aol.com Frank Millspaugh (212) 741-0839 fmillspa@aol.com Bob Farrell (323) 299-3800 X255 rfarrell@kamber.com Pacifica's new million-dollar PR man: Michael Fineman (415) 777-6933 info@finemanpr.com _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 12:46:32 -0400 Reply-To: Tom Orange Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Orange Subject: new OPEN LETTER available In-Reply-To: <199907290410.AAA22825@romeo.its.uwo.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII OPEN LETTER, Tenth Series, No. 5, Spring 1999 Pulp Theory (Guest Edited by Peter Jaeger and Scott Pound) Now Available Contents: "Introduction" Peter Jaeger and Scott Pound "Somber Up!" Deanna Ferguson "Rosicrucian Tourism" Eleni Stecopoulos "Six Poems" Nancy Shaw "Form is Form" Rob Manery "This & Thaz" Miles Champion "Lachrymose Encaustic / Abrasive Tear" Charles Bernstein "Oval Orifice" Cris Cheek and Keith Tuma "Truncated/troncated" Caroline Bergvall "Ouch of Here" Bruce Andrews "Weory of Thriting" Clint Burnham "True Fiction" Andrew J. Patterson "Practice / Editing / The Critic" Mark Sutherland "The Engineers of Indeterminacy in Post-Structural Poetics: An Idle Conversation Between the Author and Bakhtin's Dog" Karl Jirgins "An Excerpt from Freud's 'The Key to Success'" Keith Hartman "Questions for Peter and Scott" Stephen Cain "The Trouble With Graduate School: A Found Critique" Darren Werschler-Henry "from _Empire_" Deirdre Kovac "Apostrophe to Furniture" Dan Farrell "Situation: Non-Indifference: Theory and Current Poetics" Tom Orange "Lows Blow" Louis Cabri "On Singing Pictures in Poems as Verse" Wendy Kramer "And Sometimes" Christian Bok "Metaplasia / Metaplasm" Michael Basinski "Sonnet 23" Tim Atkins "Jerk" Jeff Derksen From the introduction: "This issue of _Open Letter_ calls attention to the sometimes graceless aspects of theory in an attempt to shatter its image as urbane discourse. Theory is indeed a pulp genre, and a well-known emblem of intellectual thuggery in universities. Its sensational and often poor quality writing, full of arch gestures and bungled paybacks, offers all who seek solace in it a measure of joyful tedium. And yet, outside the academy, theory becomes something entirely different. It's picked up by artists who literalize and actualize its precepts, wiping out the distinction between theory and practice...." "We asked a number of contributors--some of whom have been publishing since the 1970s--to write about the importance of theory to their work. Unlike the academic industrialization of theory, in which researchers use a canonical series of texts as tools to read other texts, we wanted to question theory's importance to formally innovative writing. While some of the writers in this issue now work in the university context, we offered them and others a site for a return to the socially critical role occupied by theory prior to its current accomodation by the university. So a possible title for this untitled issue could have been _The Dis- Accomodation of Theory_ because it shows a discomfort with the present moment...." (my $0.02: readers of recent _Philly Talks_ and of Jeff Derksen's _Disgust and Overdetermination_ issue of _Open Letter_ will find a lot of cross- dialogue contained herein.) Individual issues are available for CAN$7.00 within Canada, US$7.00 international (personal checks are fine in either case) from: 499 Dufferin Ave. London, Ontario N6B 2A1 Canada Address queries to the same or email fdavey@julian.uwo.ca Tom Orange ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:35:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: take a left at Constructed-identity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian -- I'd add Lisa Robertson's "Debbie" as an example of someone who foregrounds anachronism [i.e. imitating models outside the temporal estuary of plus/minus forty years]. Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:48:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: 1999 Books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Two books by Armand Schwerner: From National Poetry Foundation, _The Tablets__, packaged with a CD of Armand reading several sections. From Junction Press, _Selected Shorter Poems_. Backchannel for ordering information. Great review so far in PW, more to come in the August 5 Library Journal. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:08:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Julie Johnson Subject: best books of 99 (so far...) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is an (extremely) partial list of my favorite book this year, thus far... Tales of Murasaki & Other Poems, Martine Bellen The Agency of Wind, Laynie Browne boundary 2 v. 26 no. 1, ed. Charles Bernstein Other, ed. Richard Cadell & Peter Quartermain The Case, Laura Moriarty This Story is Mine, Emmanuel Hocquard Polyverse, Lee Ann Brown & my pick of the year... Try, by Cole Swensen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:21:34 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: derek beaulieu Subject: Re: 1999 Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i think that nmy votes would have to go to: gary barwin for "Outside the Hat" (Coach House Books) and the small press release "Donair Bottle Depot Laundromat: inglewood poems" by jill hartman (semi-precious press) ciao derek ----- Original Message ----- From: George Bowering To: Sent: July 29, 1999 1:58 AM Subject: Re: 1999 Books > >For several reasons, I've a question for y'all: what are the best books of > >poetry (collections, summations, book-lengths, etc.) published in 1999 > >you've come upon? > > > >Susan > > For me, they have included Erin Moure's _A Frame of the Book_ and Wayde > Compton's _49th Parallel Psalm_ > > > > > > George Bowering. > , > > > fax: 1-604-266-9000 > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 22:08:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Slaughter Subject: Mudlark Poster No. 18 (1999) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII New and On View _______________ M U D L A R K Poster No. 18 (1999) * * * On a Bluff at Elrod Mill Two Poems by Van K. Brock * * * My South, My Russia Van K. Brock is Editor-in-Chief of International Quarterly. His most recent book is Unspeakable Strangers (Anhinga). His most recent chapbook is A Conversation with Martin Heidegger in English language original and German translation (Mudlark). William Slaughter _________________ MUDLARK An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics Never in and never out of print... E-mail: mudlark@unf.edu URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 00:09:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: hassen Subject: Re: WCW on women MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit is it possible, do you think, that wcw was speaking with cheek of tongue here? curious, hassen _________ >Since there is some discussion about WCW's special feelings for >Black women, this comment of his might be considered in piecing >together the bigger picture: > > "Suppose all women were delightful, the ugly, the short, the fat, >the intellectual, the stupid, even the old-- and making a virtue of >their qualities, each for each, made themselves available to men, >some man, any man--without greed. What a world it could be-- for >women!... Take for instance the fat: If she were not too >self-conscious, did not regret that she were not lissome and quick >afoot but gave herself, full-belly to the sport! What a game it would >make! All would then be, in the best sense, beautiful--entertaining >to the mind as to the eye but especially to that part of a man which >we so mistakenly call the intellect... He would be free, freed to the >full completion of his desires." > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:29:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Noam Scheindlin Subject: NYC SUBLET Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello, I will be subletting my Brooklyn apartment for the last two weeks of August. I live on a beautiful street in the great neighborhood of Greenpoint, home to many poets. Manhattan is easily accessible by G or L train, and Williamsburg is a quick walk away. My one speed bike is included and I'll even fix the brakes. My apartment is well lit, quiet, clean and overlooks my neighbors well tended gardens (you can look out the window and watch them tending it). There's a computer, plants, and lots of books. Cost is $350 + telephone calls and deposit. If you are interested, please email me at nonoam@mindspring.com. Best, Noam Scheindlin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:32:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Stefans Subject: Modernists in the basement Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Re: >Another pretty instructive exercise is to compare, say, *Jefferson and/or Mussolini* with *In the American*. I just recently read the anthology Fascism, edited by Roger Griffin for Oxford Univerisity Press, and then went back to looking at Pound's writing from Selected Essays and was struck by how the tone of EP's writings there, not to mention the content, is not so far off from the Italian section of this anthology, which isn't surprising but might be to those who abide by the "Pound wasn't a fascist, he was a clown" mentality which is occasionally put forth. EP was in fact much more anti-Semitic than the Italian fascists were at that time (at least officially), it seems to me at least. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 13:53:27 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Joanne Kyger MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If I may, a brief plug for PATZCUARO, a new, elegantly produced chapbook by Joanne Kyger. 30 pages. I don't have the price. Published by Blue Millennium Press, Box 958, Bolinas, CA 94924. A spacious, incredibly attentive, elegant eye; not afraid of the smart turn, situated within a baroque tension of ancient and contemporary, the poems provide a focused mix of pleasure and terror. I won't say ignore Joanne at peril. But "The Beautiful Adjectives and Magnificent Metaphors of Pablo Neruda," achieved thru appropriation of quotes of ten of his contemporaries, is well worth the price of admission. (Price & book can probably be gotten thru SPD?). End dee plug. Cheers, Stephen Vincent ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:48:20 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Owen Hill Subject: Re: 1999 Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Susan: Doombook by Michael Price (The Figures) has a '98 copyright but it didn't start getting around 'till '99. I'm on about my third reading. Great book! Owen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 19:26:36 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joan Houlihan Subject: Re: Pound and the Bollingen Prize Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Brian, I'm not familiar with all of your references, but you raise some interesting points. --"work" as I've used it, IS the "seemingly isolated ("art-for-art's sake"), timeless artifact" as you put it. But you are positing another idea of work; i.e., that of an activity connected to the historical and individual context of the writer, and therefore an expression of the "man." That would be non-fiction (in your example, the essays of Pound as opposed to the poetry). Without getting into the distinctions between these two forms--fiction (including poetry) and non-fiction (another interesting topic--e.g. memoir, or new journalism, or "confessional" poetry), I'll just say that my definiton of "work" is concerned only with the work of the imagination; or fiction/poetry. --Re: "imagine Robert Mapplethorpe leading a double life as a Washington lobbyist, or some Xtian rightist, pushing for something like strict policing of the internet, mandatory short haircuts for men under the age of twenty, prayer before every meal, or well just imagine him being some sort of obsessed (sexually repressed) outsider politico pushing for centralized, conservative values (and symbols) that run up against his art work." I'd have no problem imagining this--if Mapplethorpe was never able to live as an artist all of that would be entirely possible. In many ways, this is a standard model of the conflict between the creative, usually hidden-from-society, self and the public personna. It's a "double life" only in the sense that the inner self is never reconciled/expressed as the outer self. Instead, the outer self lays claim to the territory necessary for its survival as a social being, develops the necessary masks and "personas" and keeps the imagination hidden--unless it finds expression in art, writing, etc. The more creative "exposure," the more chance to match up the inner and outer selves. Mapplethorpe's artistic life was also his lived life, so it's hard to see him violating that artisitc life, but don't MOST people lead a so-called double life? How do you not do this? Attempting to live a life focused entirely on truth of expression for example, or totally honest interactions--is a pretty radical--and psychologically dangerous--way to live. Without getting into all the psychological implications (and biological and genetic), you could look at Sylvia Plath as an example of someone striving to live "honestly." Her work was a nearly seamless outgrowth of her emotional life. But this is generally not a survivable condition in the "real world." Maybe in the world of saints and such. Then, when it is time to offer him a prize, you would be in the position of asking whether the "work" is the same thing >as the "man". See above. I don't agree that one would be in that postion, unless we're discussing non-fiction. More comments below. Best, Joan > >A recent one I came across: apparently the German painter Gerhardt Richter >was the prophet of pop art back in the day, introducing or at least >championing Warhol and those folk, but now he seems to clearly on the >monumental side -- large-scale abstract paintings, with a near classical >sense of balance, or perhaps romantic sense of sturm and drang -- with >someone like Kiefer in opposition to the "democratic" vision of someone >like Polke. How does that happen? What's the mystery? The essence of creativity is change. > >Why are poets like Drew Milne and Jeremy Prynne, the former of whom is a >recognized Marxist scholar, more or less perceived, by the Americans aware >of their work, as somewhat reclusive, decidedly "highbrow" poets (I think >in the tradition of Thomas Gray)? Perception of the art is a decidedly distinct topic from expression of it. This introduces an entirely new train of thought, not germane to the topic of "work" vs. "man" I don't think, but more of an offshoot. >Actually, more women do come to mind: why is Barbara Kruger using >techniques explored by proto-fascist artists, including some of their color >schemes, to present purportedly progressive feminist progaganda? Is this >art or social work? I don't know her work but it sounds like a great and lively concept--re-using the techniques of the "enemy" in the service of one's own propaganda. I don't know how such a thing would be classified--some propaganda is indeed art ("Triumph of the Will"), some is merely banal commentary. But "social work"? If this isn't tongue-in-cheek, then I don't know what you mean here. > > > > > > >Joan Houlihan on 07/22/99 09:39:55 AM > >Please respond to UB Poetics discussion group > > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >cc: (bcc: Brian Stefans/Trade/RandomHouse) >Subject: Re: Pound and the Bollingen Prize > > > > >Well, not exactly. I agree that: > >The work is not the man. >The prize is not the man. >Therefore, the man is neither the prize nor the work. > >However: >The prize is the both work and the man. >There has to be work to be a prize; and, by implication, there has to be a >man (or woman) to be work. The ratio of man to prize increases in relation >to how "political" the selection criteria are. > >In general, I feel that ethical considerations of the writer's life should >be entirely separate from considerations of the work--not that ethical >concerns shouldn't be considered, discussed, dissected, etc., just that >they >shouldn't be seen as germane to the work. At all. A close-up of anyone's >life reveals multiple layers, "selves" and contradictions--the study of >personality is an interesting one. However, in the case of a writer, their >biography is merely another footnote, and maybe a totally misleading >footnote at that. A critique of the work, on the other hand, is much closer >to the writer's "self." > > > >The work is not the man, neither is the prize the work. The prize, as i > >think you are saying, is a political gesture apart from the work. > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________________________ > > >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:03:24 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Owen Hill Subject: Re: Action Appeal 2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can't reallly speak for Jack, but: Jack Foley is not invisible! I live at Telegraph and Dwight in Berkeley. A couple of days ago I looked out my window to see Jack and another poet, Ivan Arguelles, taking part in an inpromptu KPFA rally. Yes, I did go downstairs and join the rally, but I missed Jack, who was playing pied -piper at the front of the march. Owen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 13:42:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Gloria Tropp Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Can anyone backch. me with a mailing address for Gloria Tropp; I've managed to lose it in the course of all my moves -- I got it from somebody on this list in the first place -- hope that somebody is still subscribed! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:10:21 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Owen Hill Subject: Surrealist Women MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There will be a belated publication party for Surrealist Women: An International Anthology (University of Texas Press) on Sunday August 1 3-5pm at Moe's Books, 2476 Telegraph Ave. Berkeley Ca. Nancy Joyce Peters, Myrna Rochester, and Marie Wilson will read from the anthology. The hosts have promised that the wine will be drinkable and the cheese better than average. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 16:20:19 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: komninos zervos Subject: Re: 1999 Books In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990722195805.0079adc0@is.nyu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" "close listening" edited by charles bernstein would have to be the best collection of essays on performance poetry i have ever read. i have been a professional performance poet since 1985 and i've always been made to feel inferior to the print poets of australia - because people who prefer print poetry were critiquing my work and the work of performance poets. we are not included in the anthologies, the canons, we are not winning any literary prizes, and our self publications are not even being archived in libraries. we will go unnoticed in the documentation of literary history. yet we perform our writings to school students, people in pubs, coffee lounges, the streets and generally to a very good response from our often unsuspecting audiences. i have never had anyone come up to me at a poetry reading and say that they would have prefered to have read these poems from a book. whilst some may say that performance poetry by the poet ties down a poem to one meaning, one interpretation of the poem, let me say that each time i read a poem to a new audience the poem becomes new, the audience and the ambiance of that particular reading rewites the poem. "close listening" has changed the way i see my artform, one which i had confidence and faith in, but one that was being continually put down by a language that was designed to comment on print poetry and print publication. bernstein's book has made me realize that, in fact, the audience for print poetry has been steadily decreasing since WW2, in australia last year oxford university press, penguin and university of queensland press dropped their australian poetry lists, and even when they were publishing australian poets, the print runs were 500-750 books, an incredibly small number even by australian standards. on the other hand, since WW2 we have seen a considerable increase in interest for performance poetry and the development of career performance poets like myself who actually make a living from performing their work around the country. black mountain and the beats, yefteshenko, dylan thomas, and the mersey beat poets from the uk had their affect in australia as well. at the moment we have about 15 performance poets, maybe more, who earn their living by speaking their poetry and another hundred or so who are semi-professional. in each capital city there is an active performance poetry scene. if anything, the print poets, like john tranter, les murray, bruce dawes, who have been popular in this country, have adopted some of the techniques of the performance poets, and more readily express their poetry in public. "close listening" does not make an argument for performance poetry over published poetry but rather recognizes that both are different artforms, each with its own audience, each with its own critical language. regards komninos At 07:58 PM 7/22/99 -0400, you wrote: >For several reasons, I've a question for y'all: what are the best books of >poetry (collections, summations, book-lengths, etc.) published in 1999 >you've come upon? > >Susan > > komninos's cyberpoetry site http://student.uq.edu.au/~s271502 cyberpoet@slv site http://www.experimedia.vic.gov.au/cyberpoet/ komninos zervos, tel. +61 7 55 948602 lecturer in cyberstudies, school of arts, gold coast campus, griffith university, pmb 50, gold coast mail centre queensland, 9726 australia. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 02:33:37 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: JASFOLEY@AOL.COM Subject: Jack Folie Comments: To: HLAZER@as.ua.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I came back from Berkeley where I had just finished hosting a two hour show OUTSIDE the KPFA studios (at "Camp KPFA") to find this: "Poet Jack Folie has (had) a poetry show on KPFA Wednesdays. Can his silence and invisibility during the struggle be taken as pro-Pacifica? Or he may know much more about the dispute and recent history of disputes than the average listener and so have opinions or insights that preclude membership in the movement; if anyone is familiar with him, please beseach him to elucidate publicly." Where is this person getting his information?--not to mention the spelling of my name. I have hardly been "silent and invisible." I have consistently supported the protests at KPFA on the air, at rallies (where I have occasionally spoken), and in many conversations. Like everyone else on the staff, I am currently locked out of the station. I will participate in the mass rally and march on Saturday and do whatever I can to think about and resolve the crisis. I am featuring Nicole Sawaya (the ousted General Manager) at a PEN Oakland event. I do not support Pacifica. Sincerely, Jack Foley ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 18:51:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: list stats MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Below is the current subscribership of the Poetics List, arranged by country. Apologies for omissions due to the U.S.-imperialist bias secreted in the Listserv program, which in generating this data quietly assumes that addresses without a country code [such as .au for Australia] are U.S. addresses. Ach, hardly any surprise in this you may be saying. Chris p.s. Special thanks to our Russian subscriber[s]. % Christopher W. Alexander % poetics list moderator * Country Subscribers * ------- ----------- * Australia 14 * Belgium 2 * Canada 42 * Finland 1 * Germany 2 * Great Britain 23 * Ireland 4 * Italy 1 * Japan 7 * Netherlands 1 * New Zealand 14 * Poland 1 * Singapore 1 * Spain 2 * Sweden 5 * Switzerland 2 * Thailand 1 * USA 633 * Yugoslavia 1 * * Total number of users subscribed to the list: 759 * Total number of countries represented: 19 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 19:11:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Re: Poem on 'good things about turning 80' / Safdie MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit this came to the administrative account. Chris -- From: "Safdie Joseph" Date: 7/29/99, 1:14 PM -0700 I'm trying to find a poem or some verse on the good things about turning 80, or old age, ... Any suggestions about where best to look, or some verse itself would be much appreciated. Heather, there's a famous poem by Sophocles about being very happy he had turned 90, because he didn't have to worry about sex anymore -- "and all its entangling confusions" if I remember correctly . . . I'm not sure if Ezra Pound had it in mind when he wrote that hilarious letter to WCW that Kent quoted yesterday, but maybe he should have!