========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 20:41:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerrold Shiroma Subject: Re: David Antin typo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit it is a typo...should be "it seems to me" -----Original Message----- From: Nielsen, Aldon To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 8:09 PM Subject: Re: Recent David Lehman book >> >>I think that generosity is a very avant-garde thing and doesn't get enough >>credit. >> > >which puts me in mind of the closing section of Antin's "What It Means To >Be Avant Garde" (with apologies to David for typing over his typography): > >nothing within the horizon of my discourse could have prepared me for that >moment with my aunt fanny who had just lost the husband she'd lived with >for over forty years and was now on the telephone and it seems to be >that if you cant respond to that youre not in the avant garde > > > >[by the way -- does anybody have the book at hand? is that "seems to be" a >typo for "seems to me"? I'm taking this from C. Beach's reprint in his >anthology] > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 00:08:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Tale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII \ Tale Two [shinto] priests were walking down a steep hill; they met a [budd- hist] monk walking up. "Where are you going?" one of the priests asked. "It is near the end of the world," said the monk, "and I am going to the top of the hill to observe." "Don't you know," said one of the priests, "it is the same everywhere?" "But not to the hill," answered the monk. When I was telling this story, the rabbi [jewish] asked, "But why were there two priests?" "Because, I answered, one of them might have for- gotten the script." The rabbi answered, "But the world is the script." And I replied, "If the world is the script, it is the hill which is writing and the priests who are reading." The rabbi said, "But it is the monk who guides the pen." A [protestant] minister, happening by, gave his ear to the tale. He said, "The hill has given the pen to the tale." I answered, "But it is christ himself who has given the hill, who has as- cended the hill as the holy mount, to preach to one and all." The monk said, "By what authority do you speak? For you seem to be jewish by cul- ture, if not religion, and hardly catholic, to speak of the christ." I answered, "It is my belief that christ is within all of us, that we are all our sons." The monk said, "Thus we repeatedly give birth to ourselves over and over again, generation upon generation," to which one of the priests replied, "Yes, but it is the latter that speaks to the former, since the latter carries the wisdom of the former." The minister said, "It is upon such that the gospel was written." I answered, "It is upon such that everything is written, from the beginning to the end of the word." The rabbi answered, "Thus is the word made world," and the monk said, "And thus the catholic, the word made flesh. For what is the flesh of the word?" One of the priests said, "To be cleansed and purified, for the circumspection of the living." I added, "Thus for the circumspection of the dead," and the monk replied, "From here throughout our ministra- tions." The rabbi said, "For who is to be believed, properly speaking, but the holy script itself?" A nearby jainist answered, "In relation to the fecundity of the earth, to which we should give as little pain as possible." The monk replied, "What is universal has no recourse among the individual." The rabbi agreed, saying, "And who is among the enlight- ened?" I replied, "Those who know the value of this, not that - and that, not this." "Exactly," cried the monk. The minister, perplexed, ended the session by stating that suffering and enlightenment are both in the hands of god, to whom we give thanks. The priests nodded in assent. _________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 21:47:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: POETICS: approval required (EE7EF13B) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On Wednesday, December 01, 1999, 1:33 AM -0500 "L-Soft list server at University at Buffalo (1.8d)" wrote: This message was originally submitted by cindyf@BESTWEB.NET to the POETICS list at LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU. You can approve it using the "OK" mechanism, ignore it, or repost an edited copy. The message will expire automatically and you do not need to do anything if you just want to discard it. Please refer to the list owner's guide if you are not familiar with the "OK" mechanism; these instructions are being kept purposefully short for your convenience in processing large numbers of messages. ----------------- Original message (ID=EE7EF13B) (57 lines) ------------------- Received: (qmail 10399 invoked from network); 1 Dec 1999 06:33:09 -0000 Received: from miro.bestweb.net (209.94.100.200) by listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 1 Dec 1999 06:33:09 -0000 Received: from bestweb.net (dialin-89.nyc.bestweb.net [216.179.5.89]) by miro.bestweb.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id BAA26357; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 01:32:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3844C0D0.7A3738D7@bestweb.net> Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 01:31:44 -0500 From: George Fouhy X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nanette , "NCGiles@aol.com" , "newsroom@trader-pub.com" , Nico Suave , "Ogorman05@aol.com" , "Othercinsf@aol.com" , PAULETTE , "PeterSpiro@aol.com" , Poetics List , Poetics List Administration , "radio@ncpr.org" , "RECREV@aol.com" , "RinaLanger@aol.com" , "rmannion@infohouse.com" , Robert Scrivens , "RPrice901@aol.com" Subject: Douglas Goetsch Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------8BECD764303BEC775214E220" --------------8BECD764303BEC775214E220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Visit our new feature poet for December 6th at 7:30 PM at the Creative Arts Cafe Poetry Series.... http://www.bestweb.net/~cindyf/poetry_2000.htm Regards... Cindy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 23:27:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathy Lou Schultz Subject: Re: Class & Poet[ry/ics] Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I disagree with your assessment that class obfuscates race. In fact, I think the opposite is true: in discussions about race and literature, writers often pretend that if they're "covering" race, that class is somehow just "included" even when a class analysis is not developed. I do, however, very much agree with the following: "But when we ask about a writer's relation to class -- his/her own, or another's -- *in poetry*, aesthetically, we start asking very interesting and *neat* questions that for me circle around (who else but) Marx and, in particular, the idea of alienation." Thanks, Kathy Lou ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Kathy Lou Schultz Editor & Publisher Lipstick Eleven/Duck Press www.duckpress.org 42 Clayton Street San Francisco, CA 94117-1110 ---------- >From: Simon DeDeo >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Class & Poet[ry/ics] >Date: Tue, Nov 30, 1999, 5:08 PM > >Trying to keep up with the list recently, but falling behind every now and >again. I'll try to keep this as noninflammatory as possible. > >The question of class in poetry -- whether it be from the outside (people >questioning the class origins of various poets or poetic movements) or the >inside (poets wondering about their own authenticity w/r/t class) -- is, >more often that not, a question designed to avoid the much more >problematic issue of race. > >Indeed, in the wider world, nobody really *cares* about a writer's class >in isolation from his race. When was the last time Byron was attacked for >being from the lesire/upper/aristocratic class? Much, much longer ago than >he was for being white. Similarly, the "lower class authenticity" carries >little weight when the author is white, as can be checked by looking over >the class backgrounds of some of the canonized. Not that this is a bad >thing, in my opinion. > >I don't want to touch the issue of race more than to point out that the >debate here seems to be interesting in as much as it is about things >internal to a writer's poetics. Sociologically, politically, the >examination of class in poetry is a blind for (mainly white) critics who >want to distract attention from the issue of race. But when we ask about a >writer's relation to class -- his/her own, or another's -- *in poetry*, >aesthetically, we start asking very interesting and *neat* questions that >for me circle around (who else but) Marx and, in particular, the idea of >alienation. > >-- Simon > >sdedeo@fas.harvard.edu >http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~sdedeo ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 07:09:36 -0000 Reply-To: suantrai@iol.ie Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "L. MacMahon and T.R. Healy" Subject: Re: new chapbooks by women MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Elizabeth, just out _Holding Patterns_ from Susan Schultz. I'll put one in the post today, but it'll be from Ireland so it could take a week to get to you. Hope it won't be past the deadline. best Randolph Healy Wild Honey Press Visit the Sound Eye website at: http://indigo.ie/~tjac/sound_eye_hme.htm or find more Irish writing at: http://www.nd.edu/~ndr/issues/ndr7/contents.html ---------- > From: Elizabeth Treadwell > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: new chapbooks by women > Date: 01 December 1999 03:32 > > Sarah Anne Cox and I are looking for the LATEST chapbooks by women to write > about in HOW2 for spring. Need em quick, deadline looming. > > Thank you. > > Elizabeth Treadwell > > PO Box 9013 > Berkeley, CA 94709 > > http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 06:33:25 -0500 Reply-To: joris@csc.albany.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Recent David Lehman book In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991130123503.009911c0@lmumail.lmu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aldon wrote: > > nothing within the horizon of my discourse could have > prepared me for that > moment with my aunt fanny who had just lost the husband > she'd lived with > for over forty years and was now on the telephone and > it seems to be > that if you cant respond to that youre not in the avant garde > > > > [by the way -- does anybody have the book at hand? is that > "seems to be" a > typo for "seems to me"? I'm taking this from C. Beach's > reprint in his > anthology] Yeap, Aldon -- just checked the New Direction text (which I happen to be teaching today!) & it is indeed "seems to me". Pierre ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 20:47:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Carol L. Hamshaw" Subject: Re: government funding in the arts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit well for the two orgs i work for funding has gone up. but then again we don't bother with the NEA. George Bowering wrote: > It doesnt say so anywhere, but I am guessing that the following is an > enquiry regarding matters in the USA. > > >hello all-- > > > >i'm trying to get a concrete sense of what is happening to government > >funding in the arts. that is to say, everyone speaks of the "trend" in > >arts, the cutbacks in the nea budget, etc.--but what are smaller, non-prof > >organizations feeling both by the nea and by state arts orgs in > >numbers? anybody out there head an arts org and have specific examples of > >slashes, i.e. how much of a decrease in funding they have received over the > >past 10 years or whatever? > > > >particularly, i'm interested in examples of organizations/people who have > >had some dealings with the california arts council--or other state arts > >councils whose behavior might be akin to the cac (maybe new york?) > > > >or, if you know something about the type of people who sit on the > >state/federal arts panels and where to get more info about this, please do > >tell. > > > >please backchannel with info, thanks. > > > >summi > > George Bowering. > , > > fax: 1-604-266-9000 -- Carol L. Hamshaw Administrator Edgewise ElectroLit Centre http://www.edgewisecafe.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:04:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: NY rent - false alarm In-Reply-To: <383B03C9.9D6E0859@lava.net> from "Juliana Spahr" at Nov 23, 1999 11:14:49 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I'm writing because, amazingly, my brother found 3 roomates in a matter of minutes for his new place. NY renting - pure insanity! Sorry to have gotten peoples hopes up. Happy hunting. -Mike. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 10:50:15 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Class & Poet[ry/ics] In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 8:08 PM -0500 11/30/99, Simon DeDeo wrote: ...When was the last time Byron was attacked for >being from the lesire/upper/aristocratic class? Much, much longer ago than >he was for being white. Similarly, the "lower class authenticity" carries >little weight when the author is white, as can be checked by looking over >the class backgrounds of some of the canonized. Not that this is a bad >thing, in my opinion. hunh? this is really weird. Mumia is about to be executed, and you're talking about Byron being attacked for being white? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 10:56:49 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Recent David Lehman book In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991130123503.009911c0@lmumail.lmu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:39 PM -0800 11/30/99, Nielsen, Aldon wrote: >> >>I think that generosity is a very avant-garde thing and doesn't get enough >>credit. >> > >which puts me in mind of the closing section of Antin's "What It Means To >Be Avant Garde" (with apologies to David for typing over his typography): > >nothing within the horizon of my discourse could have prepared me for that >moment with my aunt fanny who had just lost the husband she'd lived with >for over forty years and was now on the telephone and it seems to be >that if you cant respond to that youre not in the avant garde > > > >[by the way -- does anybody have the book at hand? is that "seems to be" a >typo for "seems to me"? I'm taking this from C. Beach's reprint in his >anthology] 2 comments on that lovable nut david antin: 1) anyone notice how every talk ends up being, or being framed by, a tale of trauma inflicted on a female relative, which he can and does interpret? (yours truly addresses this phenomenon in a piece on antin, "Talking Yiddish at the Boundaries," _Cultural Studies_ 5:1) 2) i'd like him to write a sequel, "how it feels to be avant-garde me," which may be what the other title is a screen for. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 12:26:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Kane Subject: Bob Holman on WriteNet Comments: To: writenet@twc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This month on WriteNet , Bob Holman talks about rap and its relationship to poetry, among other topics. To view the page, go to http://www.writenet.org/poetschat/poetschat_bholman.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:28:19 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: class way of not talking about race, etc... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I don't think class is necessarily only a screen for not talking about race, except in the sense that white male Marxists I have seen at academic conferences bring in class when the conversation shifts to gender and race, just as white middle class feminists bring in gender when the topic shifts to class and race, while others bring in race when the topic is class and gender. Its a game of one-downsmanship, in which leverage is exerted by those speaking from the position of least (apparent) privilege. It's like the game where you talk your hand from below a pile of other people's hands as fast as you can, and soon your hand is at the bottom again. I wouldn't question the legitimacy of anyone's concerns. But I would question the usefulness of this particular game. You can talk about race without questioning sincerity of someone else's desire to talk about something else. Of course, the next move in the game is to say that Jonathan, having no stake in this game in the first place, does not understand its urgency and importance... Jonathan Mayhew jmayhew@ukans.edu _____________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 14:22:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Kane Subject: hoa nguyen exercise Comments: To: writenet@twc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Another wonderful writing exercise from hoa nguyen -- you can access it at http://www.writenet.org/virtualpoetrywrkshp.html Hit the "Exercise 15" link -- this page links to a Bernadette Mayer page that's ever so good. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 14:38:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Al Filreis Subject: Miriam Koshland? Comments: To: Poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Friends: Does anyone know the whereabouts of Miriam Koshland? I don't know much about her, except that in the mid-1950s she was trying to get _Poetry_ and other magazines interested in African verse. I also know that at that time she was living in San Francisco. If you have any information to share about Koshland, please write me directly at afilreis@english.upenn.edu. --Al Al Filreis The Class of 1942 Professor of English Faculty Director, the Kelly Writers House University of Pennsylvania ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:55:02 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: peter neufeld Subject: Moving MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm moving to New York the last week of January. While I have employment, I would appreciate any lines on aparments anyone on the list might have and be willing to provide via backchannel. Thanks. Peter Neufeld __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 22:03:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Douglas Goetsch (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message came to the administrative account. - tim shaner --On Wednesday, December 01, 1999, 1:31 AM -0500 "George Fouhy" wrote: Visit our new feature poet for December 6th at 7:30 PM at the Creative Arts Cafe Poetry Series.... http://www.bestweb.net/~cindyf/poetry_2000.htm Regards... Cindy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 10:20:16 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herbert Meckendover Subject: Sal Mimeo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Issue number zero of Larry Fagin's new magazine, Sal Mimeo, has just appeared. Featured is new work by Fran Carlen, Clark Coolidge, Merrill Gilfillan, Steve Malmude, Ange Mlinko, Charles North, David Perry, Anne Porter, George Stanley and Jacqueline Waters. Distribution is limited. Issue zero is available at $5, and subscriptions for the next three issues are $15. Write: L. Fagin, 437 E. 12th Street, Apt. 18, New York, NY 10009. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:01:33 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jill Stengel Subject: class and MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi all, i've been unable to keep up w/the list discussions for the past few weeks, so i just read through about a billion posts, and am happy to see the class thread and relateds have been going for a while. i have a few posts i wish to comment on, and hopefully i'll be able to keep up w/this a little more frequently than i've been able to of late. so, as i'm going over a lot of time here, i'll try to make this clear... in my post dated 11/10, i said, "the experience of class is different for women and men, as women also have to contend with sexism, men do not. (and then, of course, there are many other isms that can show up too...) multiple -isms seem to have a geometric rather than simply additive effect." on 11/12, dodie responded to my post with, "I've been keeping out of this class discussion, but I think saying that implying that women have it worse than men on the class-prejudice scale is an unnecessary essentialism--and it is contrary to my experience. As much as I bitch and moan about class prejudice, I've always felt that working class guys had a harder time assimilating into the middle class poetry world I've known." i'm not sure exactly how to respond to this, but i do think it's important to respond to, and it's been on my mind for weeks now, so here's a response, here's something: i'm not sure that it's harder, easier, better, worse, or exactly what for women and men in the poetry world, or any other "world" of our world(s)...i do believe that it is __different__ for women and men...and i can imagine sometimes those differences add up to easier/harder/whatever-er, depending on where one is standing at that moment. sometimes i do think it's "easier" being a woman in some ways, and then i walk down a street at night and reconsider. sometimes i think men have it easier, and then i remember that men are supposed to be these bastions of "strength," non-emotion and all that socialized crap, so then i think men have a pretty raw deal. (a billion or more addt'l examples of "easier" "harder" etc. come to mind, but i think i've made myself clear.) so, i don't have an answer to whether it's easier or harder for who or what and why. it's just different, it just is, and gender __is__ an important element...just as race, sexual orientation, ability/disability, rural/urban/regional/access issues, etc... all of these elements and more are involved in experiences of and interpretations of "class." they overlap, multiply, and, of course divide. it's just not clean-cut. it's not simple math. and that was what i was trying to say there, dodie, and all. so i've been reading through the posts, knowing i'd respond to dodie, and wondering if there was anything else that i'd wish to respond to, tho i'd rather be a lurker as it takes a lot of effort and time to be involved and i often don't have a lot of time or extra effort available as i'm doing quite all i can manage already but that's a sidetrack...so then i saw jonathan mahew's post of 11/24 listing his ideas of which poets represent what classes, and this reminds me why gender and race and etc and all the not-tidy categories have to be brought up again along with the already not-tidy "class." (to clarify--this is not an attack, jonathan, just a statement of fact, no sarcasm oozing from the screen...) so it's messy, this "class" idea, and all that is wrapped with it. simon dedeo, i don't think i can agree with your assertion from your post of 11/30 that "The question of class in poetry ... is, more often that not, a question designed to avoid the much more problematic issue of race." --i think __all__ of these issues (race, class, gender, sexual orientation, ability/disability, rural/urban/regional/access issues, etc.) (and there are more) are problematic, and i think we each have our own particular areas we find the most difficult to deal with. or ignore. or whatever it is we choose to do. or not do. with these difficulties. and now i have to "work"--tho i earn no money for what i have to go do, so is it "work"? (yes it is.) thanks for reading, jill stengel ps--almost forgot: david baratier wrote, 11/15, "Jill, if you check back through my posts, I did not state that lack of access to opportunities does not occur, I made pains to maintain my writing in "I" based statements, when mass assumptions were made & I knew they did not fit me, I went outside of these confines to include some other individual writers. Never was there a "we" intended. I did not address women & class, which is not an oversight, I do not have personal experience and assume others here would address the subject." thanks for clarifying, david, i appreciate it. yes you did make "i" statements, and, as i didn't see you acknowledging other possibilities of experience, i assumed you weren't allowing for this. now i see you were just trying to be clear, and to speak from your own perspective. thank you for telling me your intentions. in an oral conversation this would have been quick to clear up, in this kind of a conversation it's harder, takes longer. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 19:00:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: derek beaulieu Subject: housepress announces "COURIER: an anthology of concrete and visual poetry." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit housepress is pleased to announce the release of COURIER: an anthology of concrete and visual poetry. - printed as a linocut printed box containing ephemal objects by over 50 international poets: Aguiar, Armstrong, Balan, Baker, Ball, Barwin, Basinski, Beining, Bennett, Bertola, bissett, Books, Bradley, Brannen, Bulatov, Cain, Caruso, curry, de araujo, Dutton, Drucker, Elfassy, Fledderus, fyffe, Gorman, Grumman, Hennessy, Hill, Jaeger, J(o(h)n)ston, Kacian, Kang, Kempton, Lefler, levy, lopes, McCaffery, Morin, Morton, mulder, Nichol, Panhuyzen, Peters, Poem by Nari, Scobie, Seagram, Selby, snow, tj & derek beaulieu, Spence, Sutherland, Swede, Trans-Canada Research Team,Upton, UU Harris, Vitacchio, and Wershler-Henry - produced in an edition of 115 numbered copies, of which only 55 are for sale. - available for $60 (postage included, please note to make any payment out to "derek beaulieu) from: please e-mail derek beaulieu (housepress) 1339 19th ave nw calgary alberta canada t2m 1a5 housepre@telusplanet.net for more information. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:21:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Summi Kaipa Subject: Re: government funding in the arts In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed sorry if i offended anyone by being "usa-centric" but i thought that the message indicated my interest in california and new york arts organizations. & sorry for any confusion. thanks summi At 03:19 PM 11/29/99 -0800, you wrote: >It doesnt say so anywhere, but I am guessing that the following is an >enquiry regarding matters in the USA. > > > >hello all-- > > > >i'm trying to get a concrete sense of what is happening to government > >funding in the arts. that is to say, everyone speaks of the "trend" in > >arts, the cutbacks in the nea budget, etc.--but what are smaller, non-prof > >organizations feeling both by the nea and by state arts orgs in > >numbers? anybody out there head an arts org and have specific examples of > >slashes, i.e. how much of a decrease in funding they have received over the > >past 10 years or whatever? > > > >particularly, i'm interested in examples of organizations/people who have > >had some dealings with the california arts council--or other state arts > >councils whose behavior might be akin to the cac (maybe new york?) > > > >or, if you know something about the type of people who sit on the > >state/federal arts panels and where to get more info about this, please do > >tell. > > > >please backchannel with info, thanks. > > > >summi > > > > > >George Bowering. > , > > >fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 22:15:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: What class are you? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Don't forget your Soc 101. You have to consider four things: Assets Income Power Prestige What about culture? Are you talking Culture (would you rather go to the philharmonic or the hockey game?) or culture (world-view, beliefs, behavioral preferences, etc.) Culture is part of prestige and culture is a byproduct of the combinatoin of assets, income, power, and prestige. Your position in society is a product of your upbringing and education, which in turn depends on your, and, earlier, your parents' assets, income, power, and prestige. ---- Who pays for poetry? Whose poetry? Some bourgeois people dish out $25 for Seamus Heaney while our chapbooks languish in the store. Jorge Guitart On Mon, 29 Nov 1999, MAYHEW wrote: > Murat wrote: > > " Jonathan appears to say that class essentially is equivalent to culture > in the United States. This is so if class expresses itself in writing only > in terms of the class origin of the writer? Then, it is true, as Jonathan > notes, a contradiction develops when a person moves up the economic scale, > which is quite possible in the States. But what about class, reflected in > terms of who supports or pays for the written product? Then, Jonathans > financial sacrifice as a graduate student is a temporary state, as an > interns on the way to becoming a doctor." > > > Good point. I don't think class is only equivalent to level of culture, > but it clearly is not equivalent to the amount of money one has at a given > moment either. I see is more as an underlying ethos defining preferences > in large number of areas, including aesthetic. And people in academia use > class to mean class origin, otherwise it would not make sense to speak of > class differences at all since we are all doing the same thing for a > living. > > Who supports and pays for poetry? Good question that I hope will provoke > lively discussion... > > Jonathan Mayhew > jmayhew@ukans.edu > > _____________ > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 22:19:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Al Filreis Subject: webcast: Silliman Osman Perelman Stefans Comments: To: Poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The program described below will be webcast. If you can't get to the Writers House in Philadelphia and would like to participate via webcast, please write to me - afilreis@english.upenn.edu - and I will send you follow-up information. The webcast begins at 7:30 PM eastern time next Tuesday, December 7. Al Filreis University of Pennsylvania + + + informal symposium on contemporary avant-garde poetry Ron Silliman Jena Osman Bob Perelman Brian Kim Stefans hosted and moderated by Al Filreis with Shawn Walker - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Tuesday, December 7 7:30 PM live from the Kelly Writers House, 3805 Locust Walk To participate via webcast you will need to know how to connect. Write to afilreis@english.upenn.edu to reserve a "space" and receive further information. JENA OSMAN's book, THE CHARACTER, published by Beacon (1999), is the winner of the 1998 Barnard New Woman Poets Prize. "Her writing is the way the mind works," wrote Leslie Scalapino of this book. Jena's publications include JURY (Meow Press, 1996), Amblyopia (Avenue B, 1993) and poems appearing in Abacus, Avec, Big Allis, Conjunctions, O-blek, Subliminal Time and elsewhere. With Juliana Spahr, Jena is the editor of the influential magazine Chain. She has read at the Writers House for PhillyTalks and on "Live at the Writers House." She is assistant professor of English at Temple University. BOB PERELMAN recently published THE FUTURE OF MEMORY, a new book of verse, and his selected poems, TEN TO ONE. For many years Bob lived in San Francisco where he edited Hills magazine and was central to the development of the language poetry movement. From 1977 to 1981 he coordinated the San Francisco Talks Series and edited Writing/Talks (1985) gathered from the series. His books of poetry include Braille (Ithaca House, 1975), Face Value (Roof Books, 1988), and Virtual Reality (Roof Books, 1993). He is also the author of two books of theory and criticism, The Trouble with Genius (University of California, 1994), and The Marginalization of Poetry (Princeton, 1996). Now of course he lives in Philadelphia, where he is an Associate Professor of English at Penn. Bob is a member of the Writers House "hub" or planning committee. BRIAN KIM STEFANS is the author of Free Space Comix (Roof, 1998) and the forthcoming Angry Penguins (Object). His collaboration with Sianne Ngai, "The Cosmopolitans," was featured as the second issue of the zine Interlope published out of Iowa City. His works have also appeared in many magazines, including the web journals Ubu and Yellow Jacket, under a pseudonym. Brian published three issues of the journal Arras before taking it to the web in 1998. His critical writings have been published in Korean Culture and The Poetry Project Newsletter, and a long essay on alternative Asian American poetry now appears in Talisman. Brian participated in a PhillyTalks program at the Writers House last year. Among RON SILLIMAN's many important writings are Ketjak (This, 1978); Tjanting (The Figures, 1981); "The New Sentence" (Roof, New York, NY, 1987); the anthology "In the American Tree" (1986); Leningrad, a collaboration with Michael Davidson, Lyn Hejinian, and Barrett Watten (1991); Demo to Ink (Chax, 1992); Toner (Potes & Poets, 1992); N/O (Roof, 1994) and recently "(R)" (Drogue). The earliest published poems Ron doesn't mind listing appeared in issue number 1 of _Community Libertarian_ on May Day, 1965; and "One, Two, Three Hands Clapping" in the first issue of Avalanche (Berkeley) in 1966. Long a resident of San Francisco, Ron now resides near Valley Forge, PA, a point from which he make regular trips to the Kelly Writers House where he has led and joined PhillyTalks, read "Albany" on "Live at the Writers House" (available here: www.english. upenn.edu/~afilreis/88v/silliman.html) and supported many emerging writers. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 22:29:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: Class and Money In-Reply-To: <19991130015436.43475.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Suppose Maria Zavialov was not working class.So what. You don't have to be working class to talk about the working class. You don't have to labor a bit or a lot to know about the working class. So they were told a lot about the working class, maybe too much, maybe to the point where it was very hard to believe in what they were told about the working class. A certain repugnance probably set in. --- Any working class person who has time to be on this list, I am glad for you. --- Jorge On Mon, 29 Nov 1999, pete spence wrote: > > The same day, Pete Spence responds to Maria Zavialov: > >"Suddenly I remembered that I should know about working class a lot. > > >I was thoroughly drilled in marxism and leninism all through many years > >of > > >school and university back in the 70s in the Soviet Union." M.Z. > > > > > > >i'd thought maybe doing a bit o' labour because it was your only option > >would be a better sampler than being drilled by theory//pete spence" > > > > > > Does Pete have a special knowledge that Maria belongs to the idle > >reach? > >Or is it implicit in his comment that labor is only labor ("authentic") if > >it > >is working class? Is this an example of the "sentimental working-class > >poetics?" > > > > > >Murat Nemet-Nejat > > maybe maria could have worded it better ,still think i probably seen closer > views of working class than a lot, my father a socialist was under the > threat of the "crimes act' here for years and i remember him being > interviewed on t.v. knowing he would probably be arrested when he left the > studio could go on but!!! sentiment/sediment/saidund meant//pete spence > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 19:35:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: new chapbooks by women Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks to all who've responded -- and we eagerly await review copies. Any books we receive we will also consider for our HOW2 piece and for review in _Outlet_ as well. You may send chapbooks to me at: PO Box 9013, Berkeley, CA 94709 or/and to Sarah Anne Cox at: 95 McCoppin #E206, SF, CA 94103 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 19:39:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: Correction re: new chapbooks by women Comments: cc: sacoxf@fatnet.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Excuse me, I mailed that too quickly, my note should read, we will consider review copies for discussion in our piece for HOW2 as well as for review in Outlet. We are interested in reviewing recent (1999) chapbook publications by emerging women writers from our beloved micropress community. & again: You may send chapbooks to me at: PO Box 9013, Berkeley, CA 94709 or/and to Sarah Anne Cox at: 95 McCoppin #E206, SF, CA 94103 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 21:27:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: "Mirage #4/Period[ical]" #89, Atlanta issue Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi, it's Kevin Killian. Dodie Bellamy and I have turned over the new issue of our zine "Mirage #4/Period[ical]" to the Atlanta Writers Group about whom we had been quite curious and now the issue (#89!!) is ready. Maybe it will open eyes all over the world about the interesting new writing scene in Atlanta. Anyhow, if anyone on this list would like a copy please back-channel me and I'll send you one. Please don't send money, this is a free offer and just send your address instead (unless you think I know it by heart). No solicitors will call... Kevin K. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 23:12:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Tills Subject: Lehman book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To page 247 now, and all and all I guess I quite like his _Last Avant Garde_, as the readings are and full of care. So the thing about the intro statements, how they can ruffle non-seniority list members who were not able to join the Company at the ground-floor breaking of tradition (maybe we were only, like, 0-8 years old at the time, too), well, can just let it go. It's pretty innocuous, I guess. His Avant-Garde seems more reverence and love than pronouncement and control. Much love, in fact, which is warm and clear. What I would, myself, "espouse" had I 'nuff time, talent, and persistence to cover D. Bromige (David Brimbody) and B. Grenier (Robert Grinnear), another avant-garde I don't want to be the lost. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 09:37:10 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: literary remainders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the Winter Literature Catalog of the Scholar's Bookshelf (a remainder service) are two offerings which may be of particular interest to the List. item# 4EMMJ AGAINST ANTHOLOGIES by Laura Riding and Robert Graves was 32.50, now 6.95 item # 49FGJ THE TROUBLE WITH GENIUS by Bob Perelman was 16.95, now 6.95 I'm working with a paper catalog. You cyberfolk may want to visit the website: www.scholarsbookshelf.com/literature/ Sincerely, Tom (the Provincial) Beckett ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:11:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Phase Space MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII \ Phase Space Nikuko, the beautiful Russian ballet dancer, pirouetting before the very august presence of Doctor Leopold Konninger, her state of mind: A violations and tears nightmare! You danced for 262255 hours? No no no, it was longer and shorter, No no no, i don't remember and my dissolutions are those moments of re-entry, when i find myself on mother earth father moon, when i find myself dreaming of doctor leopold konninger, my eyes fixed on his solar visage, my dancing perfect and continuous and 1021 and 1047 - Nikuko is still alive! Use of uninitialized value at ./.julu line 130, chunk 8. For 4 months of dissolution, we have been and buried and it has taken us 3.000 minutes to speak our very last ... and my dissolutions are those moments of re-entry, when i find myself on mother earth father moon, when i find myself dreaming of doctor leopold konninger, my eyes fixed on his solar visage, my dancing perfect and continuous; the universe is my traditional object, the universe is my breathing in and breathing out, space is inhabiting me; i am Nikuko the beautiful russian ballet dancer who is winding the universe around her as she pirouettes for doctor leopold konninger; i alone recognize the confused topologies of embedded space-time around my waist and breasts and thighs, my tutu enmeshed in nebulae and stars; oh ballet, o ballet, hanged_man with hours of sexual fury! _________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 10:29:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Layne Russell Subject: ain't that the dickens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit December 2, 132 years ago (1867): Charles Dickens gives his first reading in New York. Before the box office opens, people stand in two lines almost a mile long, waiting for tickets. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.sonic.net/layne a quiet place "in this rose light time's door does not close" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 22:37:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: NPF Conference Call for Papers (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit this message cam to the admin account - tim shaner --On "Sylvester Pollet" wrote: Burt Hatlen asked me to repost this as a reminder of the Feb. 1 deadline for abstracts. Y'all come! Sylvester > >Call for Papers > >The Opening of the Field: A Conference on >North American Poetry in the 1960s > >University of Maine >Orono, Maine >June 28-July 2, 2000 > > >The National Poetry Foundation invites paper and panel proposals for a >conference on North American poetry of the 1960s. Proposals are welcome >on writers of previous generations whose literary careers extended into >the 1960s, such as Louis Zukofsky, George Oppen, Robert Lowell, Charles >Olson, Anne Sexton, Elizabeth Bishop, Lorine Niedecker, etc.; on poets of >literary movements that climaxed in the 1960s, including the Beat, Black >Mountain, San Francisco Renaissance, and New York schools; on women poets >and poets of color, who began to speak with a new confidence during this >decade; and on new literary moments that began to define themselves in >this period, such as the ethnopoetic movement and language-centered >writing. Papers are also invited on the general cultural background of >the period, including such themes as the tensions between "academic" >poetry and various attempts to bring poetry into the lives of people "in >the streets"; the relationship of poetry and popular culture, including >rock music; and the role of poetry in the anti-war movement. As the title >of the conference suggests, we invite proposals on Canadian as well as on >American poetry in the 1960s. > >The conference will begin on Wednesday evening, June 28, and will conclude >shortly after noon on Sunday, July 2. Accommodations and meals will be >available at a reasonable rate in university residence halls. Registration >will be $85, with a reduced rate of $60 for graduate students. > >Confirmed participants as of October 1, 1999, include Marjorie Perloff, >Michael Davidson, Joan Retallack, Lorenzo Thomas, Rosmarie Waldrop, Keith >Waldrop, Maria Damon, Barrett Watten, Lynn Keller, Peter Middleton, and >Ron Silliman. > >Send one-page abstracts before February 1, 2000, to > >Burton Hatlen >Director, National Poetry Foundation >Room 304 >5752 Neville Hall, >University of Maine >Orono, ME 04469-5752 > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:15:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lowther, John" Subject: Re: avant garde / mckenzie Comments: To: skarrid@hotmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > geraldine mckenzie wrote; > "It is misleading to refer to the avant garde solely in terms of novelty. This establishes an association with art as commodity which is generally repudiated by those artists who might be described as avant garde. Novelty is a creature of time and unreliable, a bye product of experiment rather than an end." it is misleading --- did i do it ? i recall writing about someone at the symposium in new orleans who'd thrown out the tern novelty in his screed about the term experimental --- i dont recall the term avant garde coming into it --- but i wd like to mention that novelty need not relate to commodity and as its origin is in the 14th century it seems reasonably disconnected to commodity culture circa now "What is more significant is the 'revolutionary' or oppositional nature of a text." i see what yr saying here but i'm not sure that belief is compelled --- that is, i find the discontinuity between the work of the italian futurists and what had been going on up until then much more interesting, in and of itself (it's novelty?) than i do they "revolutionary" attitudes of this group ---- as such it seems that its our needs that make X Y or Z "significant" "Meanwhile, in the marketplace, the 'novelty' of the avant garde signals just another item for sale -or so some would like to think. If the experimental only referred to technique, this might be so, but when it refers to ideas or modes of thought, then it can constitute a challenge to what Bernstein accurately terms'official verse culture' which (...) is still very much in place." how much avant garde is available in the market place ? i've never seen any, as such i wonder what this cd mean ultimately --- and the experimental, i'd say has nothing to do with technique and is a cognitive relation to the work not a style or technique that one can pick up put down at any time --- not that i think many of us are writing experimental poetry --- i doubt we are --- i maybe have written one poem deserving the name and seen a handful more --- it seems to me that instead what most of us are engaged in is improvization of one sort or another and with varying degrees of guidelines/guard-rails etc i dont dispute that there is an official verse culture but i don't feel connected to it enough to be able to muster much of an oppositional attitude towards it myself --- to be truly oppositional i wd have to pay attention to official verse culture and there is so much better to be done with my time "To say it [the A-G] does not, and can not, exist is either wishful thinking or a form of cultural despair, a loss of faith not only in poetry, but also language, and thus - us." must it be so stark ? i wd rather have the supposedly avant garde character of presentness and ditch the oppositionality so i guess i'm not in the avant garde huh ? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:28:27 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: address query In-Reply-To: <38433EB6.2B93ECEC@ptdprolog.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" anybody got a mailing address for Tinfish? thakns in advance md ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 18:00:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Kane Subject: machismo and the avant-garde? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Anyone know of work that's been done on machismo as implicit in avant-garde values? Or, on a more localized level, Olson and machismo (i.e., "go by it, boys, rather than by,the metronome," and "there it is, brothers, sitting there, for USE," "from the moment he ventures into FIELD COMPOSITION--puts himself into the open" etc.). A list of any articles / books that deal with this in one way or another would be much appreciated. If you like, backchannel to dkane@panix.com. Thanks. --daniel ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 23:06:35 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: invitation to submit work to "on word" - Writers Forum's 1000th publication MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit invitation to submit work to "on word" Writers Forum's 1000th publication _____________________________ As its 1000th publication, Writers Forum plans another special! It will be called "on word" and will be as big as finance permits. This is an invitation for you to send work for consideration for inclusion - but *please read on first. We hope to produce an eclectic anthology of investigative, positively-experimental work, with supporting statements *where *appropriate. We are interested in seeing work across the range of poetry from linear verbal to non-verbal visual work by poets who, regardless of gender or race, have in common their commitment to "making it new" - those who are, in our judgement, still trying new things, open to ideas, still surprising. The proposed book is intended not just to provide a showcase of energetic contemporary work, much of it not available through existing anthologies, but also a bridge and speculative map into the new poetries being worked out now. Like WF750 the approach will be international. We want to see contributions from younger poets, however one defines "younger". As a speculative book, attention will be paid to emerging forms and media including approaches which cross traditional and accepted boundaries. Ideally, the publication will include CDs to present aural performance, to examine the use of colour, to present some of the work in "the emerging technologies". At present, we know that we are able to publish a print publication of limited scale; further funding is being sought to enable us to fulfil our wider ambitions. For now, you are invited to send 4 (four) pages, camera ready. The size should be in the proportion 210 (wide) : 297 (high). Please send s.a.e. / i.r.c. for return of your work. If you are on email, let us have your email address. If it becomes possible to include CDs further announcements will be made. All such announcements will be published at the WF website. http:// matrix.crosswinds.net/members/~writersforum/ At present, all we want is work on paper. These guidelines are intended to be self-explanatory; but if you have any question, write to either editor with sae / irc or email Lawrence Upton on lawrence.upton@britishlibrary.net Submissions to "on word", which fit these guidelines (intended to save us all wasting time), should be sent, with s.a.e. / i.r.c. to either: Lawrence Upton (WF1000) 32 Downside Road Sutton Surrey SM2 5HP UK or Bob Cobbing (WF1000) 89a Petherton Road London N5 2QT UK Provisional deadline: 30th June 2000 Publication date: 1st January 2001 or later Bob Cobbing & Lawrence Upton Editors: "on word" ------------------------------- JUST PUBLISHED: "huming / queuing" by Lawrence Upton Writers Forum, London; November 1999 40 pp; ISBN 0 86162 £3.00 sterling plus p & p from New River Project, 89a Petherton Road, London N5 2QT ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 16:22:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: WTO : reports of the police riot in Seattle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Listmates : this ain't poetry nor poetics, but it has a foot in kultur-kritik. I know how hard it can be to get any news that hasnt been masticated then turned into daily rejectamenta by the corpsemedia---our local paper, an organ of the NYT, airbrushed yesterday's reign of terror by police forces, and had a fatuous editorial turning the violence of a dozen anarchists and a handful of thugs (agents provocateurs?) into 5,000 peaceful protestors going ape. And so now we dont need to pay further attention to any critcism of the WTO, because if we did criticize it, we'd be nut-cases (as the Estonian delegate said). Because I live within range of radio station kpfa, I am able to forward eye-witness accounts heard yesterday, by live feed from Seattle. And so I shall---with apologies to those who would like to see this List stick to its poetics mission. These reports testify to "overkill" violence on the part of police forces in Seattle. Faced with peaceful protests and passive resistance, the forces of law-n-order fired rubber bullets pointblank at seated protestors, in attempts to clear a 50-block area that the mayor had (with dubious constitutionality) placed off-limits to free speech. In many previous such demonstrations in other cities, protestors have been removed by hands-on methods, with ultimate success for the police. In Seattle, police fired rubber bullets into the faces of those who were in their way, breaking teeth and raising grapefruit-sized welts. A young woman who was among those helping out at a field station by tending the wounded, said that many injured men had been shot in the groin, likewise pointblank. Others had their wounds in the back, sustained as they complied with police demands that they vacate the area. People were trapped in order to be teargassed [note : as I saw happen at UC Berkeley in 1968] rather than being allowed to disperse. She also testified that she and other workers were ordered to remove the red cross armbands they wore to identify themselves, and had their medical supplies confiscated. This meant that protestors who had been teargassed (often, also at pointblank range) were denied water and swabs to relieve the pain of the searing and choking gas. She said, too, that (this in contrast to wire-service reports today of "several injured") she and her colleagues had treated more than a hundred sufferers. I am a student of voices. This woman was telling the truth, on this I stake myself....although I can well imagine the corporate media would, did they have to deal with her at all, frame her as a dupe or tool. The list of civil rights violations, physical or otherwise, could go on and on, but this is e-mail, so I forbear. Many of these police, in riot gear, displayed no badges nor was it possible to know to which adminstrative unit they belonged----Seattle police, King's County marshalls, Washington State police, Highway Patrol, federal agents, National Guard. The Mayor has done some hand-wringing, but like it or not he, Paul Schell, bears ultimate responsibility. What one wants to do with this information is a seperate question. My sympathies lie with those who believe we must find a way to ensure such police-riots cannot be permitted (as surely this one was encouraged) to occur again. In a move to compel the Mayor and his supporters to bear this responsibility, and to persuade the administrations of other cities in future situations where civil disobedience occurs, not to allow their police to go mad-dog (then wring their hands upon the fait accompli), many of us are urging a one-year boycott of the city of Seattle. We are trying to reach the Mayor to let him know the terms of this boycott. We think it should last for one year unless there is further police brutality today, in which case it should be extended to two years, and so on. The boycott---based upon the grounds that Seattle cannot police its own police, thereby rendering the city unsafe to any persons---asks that you not travel to Seattle any time between Dec 5, 1999, and Dec. 5, 2000. If you need to drive thru the city, please gas up and get food in communities on either side of the city. The point is to spend no money in Seattle. Yes, this will bring hardship to innocent merchants and employees, but Seattle authorities escalated these proceedings into a war, and in a war, innocent people do get hurt. There is no other way to bring pressure upon authorities to restrain their police. At best one gets an official inquiry, which exonerates the wrong-doers. If we can hit Seattle in the money-belt, those who feel the pinch the most will exert their own pressure on rogue officials. An example will be made of Seattle to prevent any repetition of such police overkill, in any other venue. With an outfit such as the WTO, consisting of delegates not elected by us, yet empowered to overturn our labor and environmental laws, there is nowhere to take our disagreement but to the streets---there, and the Net. The corpsemedia will distort these issues beyond sense. Ergo, the streets have to made safer for demonstrators. Or do we want a future where an unreachable WTO wrecks our lives and our one arena of action is owned by uniformed sadists? Cities will have to live with the fact that the USA allows peaceful assembly of dissidents. There are going to be people in the street for as long as we are denied other avenues to protest the undemocratic rule of the WTO---which can overturn national and state and local environmental laws, which can force our nation to import the products of child- and slave-labor, and which can bring about further export of jobs from the USA to countries with no regulatory sanctions that protect their workers or their environment. In the meantime, cities must not be allowed to get away with super-violence faits accomplis. The President himself told the WTO yesterday that he approved of the peaceful protestors being in the streets---at the same time that police were carrying out this violence against these president-approved persons. Judge for yourself whether this was cynical on his part or not....perhaps he is merely a dupe. Further sanctions are possible, and one would be to refuse to buy any product manufactured in Seattle. Please spread the word, and qualify the consequences for fascism in whatever way you wish. Thanks for your attention. David Bromige. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 17:46:45 -0800 Reply-To: jim@vispo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: MIEKAL AND AT DEFIB THIS SUNDAY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIEKAL AND AT DEFIB Sunday December 5, Noon Pacific Time (19:00 GMT) Defib: http://www.webartery.com/defib MIEKAL AND Miekal And is a high energy experimentalist writer/polyartist who has been doing interesting, exciting work for a long time in many media. His concentration is on collaborative work; he's working with Alan Sondheim on Alan's collaborative projects on the Trace Webboard and is developing an exciting project at LinguaMOO called Cybele's Multiverse Garden as well as participating with the other webartists at webartery. We'll be surfing these projects and talking with Miekal about online collaboration. DEFIB You're invited to participate/collaborate in this live chat session which, like the rest of the Defib Web artist interviews, is recorded and turned into a hypertranscript (canned version) of the show. Past shows are available at http://webartery.com/defib/pastevents.htm TECH REQ All you need is a Java-enabled browser pointed at http://webartery.com/defib to participate. Or mIRC or Ircle, etc (see Help section in Defib for details) if you prefer to use a traditional IRC client. SOME OF MIEKAL AND'S WORK/COLLABORATION SITES: Qazingulaza: http://net22.com/qazingulaza linguaMOO: http://lingua.utdallas.edu:7000 (no password required, just click "Log in") Miekal's room is Cybele's Multiverse Garden type "@go Cybele's Multiverse Garden" Trace: http://hum-webboard.ntu.ac.uk/trace ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 20:48:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Tills Subject: Humble seed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So what would it look like, _The Best American Poetry Online_, culled from 75 experimental hypertext mags, if say three-four-five hundred experimental poets each pitched in 20 small bucks for their own two copies a piece and maybe another 20 little dollars to get a coupla copies into every Bans and Ignoble and Aborters big comfortable public libraries/stores in the country? Some cunning with Amazon.com and the publishers and others could also help... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 19:13:53 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Susan M. Schultz" Subject: Re: address query MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maria--the Tinfish address is 47-391 Hui Iwa Street #3, Kaneohe, HI 96744. Thanks for asking. Susan Schultz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 01:27:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: Class & Poet[ry/ics] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Two responses: Kathy: * I'm glad we're on somewhat of the same wavelength re: a writer's personal relation to class. I'm not sure if it's useful to bring up a discussion of the politics of criticsm, but I do feel that class is used as a blind for race -- for example, in affirmative action discussions, opponents often bring up the upperclass status of a particular black student as an argument against. The question of a writer's relation to his class -- does anyone know of a critic who goes in to such issues in an explicitly Marxist way? I think -- perhaps -- Bakhtin, in _Dost. Poetics_ -- but it's been awhile. Maria: * I'm not complaining (at all) that Byron is being attacked for being white. I'm just saying that a political criticism of Byron will focus on his whiteness more than his class in this "day 'n' age". But perhaps we should all stop writing/reading poetry and work on the free Mumia campaign. -- Simon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 22:27:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Larsen Subject: lettuce report Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm sorry I've been too busy w/ exams & the holiday to deliver on my promise of timely lettuce news --I'm still in the lower echelons of finding out about it myself --Here though is an informative report on some of the UFW's work in the central valley: http://www.unitedfarmworkers.com/letter-vegtable.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 23:32:18 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: 3 mans & one fans Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > webcast: Silliman Osman Perelman Stefans Three men in a boat and their sainted fans. Dig those crazy n-dings! LangPos fer sure. db ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 01:45:25 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Ellis Subject: Re: avant garde / mckenzie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed There're probably some interesting connections to make between what John's bringing up here viz "official verse culture" and the avant garde, the recent issues of class that have found their way onto the List, and the recent events in Seattle, particularly possible responses to it, as outlined in David Bromige's post, but I'm not clear on exactly what these (connections) might comprise. It's weird to think that perhaps the "oppositional" status between "official verse culture" and the avant garde are only oppositional within a particular frame of reference, perhaps in ways similar to the Seattle battles between officialdom and protestors against officialdom's apparent power - very like the usual game of cops and robbers, a vying for power pointed toward those that already have it, hoping for exchange, hoping to be heard, hoping after some form of power one can keep for themselves, or use in a better way than those who currently wield it to bust heads, balls, unions or whatever seems to stand in the way of "moving forward" , wch I assume means toward material gain, or, for those in opposition, what? - a more just world? But in terms of what ideal or out of what labyrinthine sacrificial pit are such judgements made, ie., who's an "outsider" and what are they outside of? There are a lot of troubling questions here. At the front line of what struggle, exactly, does the avant garde do its stuff? Are cops working class? Were the bulk of the protestors in Seattle working class? Was Marx working class? Or, not to get so ridiculous as to ask whether the Marx Brothers were working class, & to shift directions, are the working class capable of self-rule? Do workers need bosses like bosses need workers? Is human consciousness in fact capable of some degree of self-regulation that would lead to the creation of a state of affairs in wch something other than bared teeth rules? And if so, how does this mode of thinking translate into action, into form? Is that what the avant garde has always posed itself as, new forms of thinking that may "trickle down" into the common polis without being in some wise simply ghettoized or elevated as just another aesthetic avenue to the immaterial? And is "official verse culture" a way to sandbag the flood of change those who already have power and/or status are always afraid is just around the corner? And is it? Or what of "anarchistic" ideas expressed in modes common to "official verse culture" - who will read them? Who comprises the working class? Or what percentage of that class is interested in radical ideas and change enough to spend real time examining the ways in wch either and/or both the avant garde or "official verse culture" propose change. Or how much is a "necessity" of change foisted upon those who often haven't yet the means to understand or determine what their own place(s) in such "new systems" might be? We are all put in a state of perpetual trespass against ourselves because of our own inabilities to get outside of our own isolation, and so our ideas about all of the above (and more) become isolating traumas, albeit perpetually expressed. "The powers that be" may be our own ability to endure under the isolation and stress that are a result of either being possessed or bereft of exactly those powers, rather than the power itself, wch, disembodied as it also is in us, is a very difficult thing to identify, as are we, remaining as we do at its behest, under order. Yet therefore also, always "in" substance. The argument is, what are we gonna DO with it, about it, for it, against it - the problem is vectoral: where are we going? Forget the "reasons"; give me the directions. (or, forget the bandaid: give me the finger.) S E >From: "Lowther, John" >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: avant garde / mckenzie >Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:15:42 -0500 > > > geraldine mckenzie wrote; > > > "It is misleading to refer to > the avant garde solely in terms > of novelty. This establishes > an association with art > as commodity which is generally > repudiated by those artists > who might be described > as avant garde. Novelty is > a creature of time and unreliable, > a bye product of experiment > rather than an end." > >it is misleading --- did i do it ? i recall writing about someone at the >symposium in new orleans who'd thrown out the tern novelty in his screed >about the term experimental --- i dont recall the term avant garde coming >into it --- but i wd like to mention that novelty need not relate to >commodity and as its origin is in the 14th century it seems reasonably >disconnected to commodity culture circa now > > "What is more significant > is the 'revolutionary' or > oppositional nature of a text." > >i see what yr saying here but i'm not sure that belief is compelled --- >that >is, i find the discontinuity between the work of the italian futurists and >what had been going on up until then much more interesting, in and of >itself >(it's novelty?) than i do they "revolutionary" attitudes of this group ---- >as such it seems that its our needs that make X Y or Z "significant" > > "Meanwhile, in the marketplace, > the 'novelty' of the avant garde > signals just another item for sale > -or so some would like to think. > If the experimental only referred > to technique, this might be so, but > when it refers to ideas or modes > of thought, then it can constitute > a challenge to what Bernstein > accurately terms'official verse culture' which > (...) is still very much in place." > >how much avant garde is available in the market place ? i've never seen >any, >as such i wonder what this cd mean ultimately --- and the experimental, i'd >say has nothing to do with technique and is a cognitive relation to the >work >not a style or technique that one can pick up put down at any time --- not >that i think many of us are writing experimental poetry --- i doubt we are >--- i maybe have written one poem deserving the name and seen a handful >more >--- it seems to me that instead what most of us are engaged in is >improvization of one sort or another and with varying degrees of >guidelines/guard-rails etc > >i dont dispute that there is an official verse culture but i don't feel >connected to it enough to be able to muster much of an oppositional >attitude >towards it myself --- to be truly oppositional i wd have to pay attention >to >official verse culture and there is so much better to be done with my time > > "To say it [the A-G] does not, > and can not, exist is either > wishful thinking or a form of cultural > despair, a loss of faith > not only in poetry, but also > language, and thus - us." > >must it be so stark ? i wd rather >have the supposedly avant garde character >of presentness and ditch the oppositionality > >so i guess i'm not in the avant garde huh ? > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:17:48 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Captain's log WF1000 - supplemental MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Responses to the initial call for submissions have shown up some ambiguities and omissions in that call. So... (1) It says: "The size should be in the proportion 210 (wide) : 297 (high)". 210 mm x 297 mm is A4 paper and we realise that such paper is not readily available world-wide; but we hope you will set your word-processor to custom size, or shift the margins, or rule up your drawing paper accordingly. It is likely that the actual published page size will be less than A4 so make sure that you use a type size which will cope with reduction! So: work in that ratio, 210:297, and be prepared for us to print at anything down to a regular paperback (2) We prefer previously unpublished work, but will consider published work. Please state details of any previous publication. (3) i.r.c. means international reply coupon - a way of sending us stamps across national borders - feel free though to just give an email if you don't actually need return so we can email you saying yes or no (4) This is an international invitation. Work from poets of all countries is welcome if it fits the guidelines (5) Funds permitting, the book will be professionally printed. If they do not permit then it will be photocopied in-house and professionally bound. So "camera-ready" means "as long as we don't have to retype it etc". Laser prints, ink jets, decent photocopies and so on should be fine as long as they're not running low on toner. (For those of you who know the 750th publication of WF - WORD SCORE UTTERANCE CHOREOGRAPHY - the introductory pages were mastered on a sheet feed desk top laser which cost about 100 UK pounds (6) There will be an index, but do consider putting your name on the page as an integral part of the image to be reproduced. (7) Don't include page numbers because they will be incorrect when they are in the book. Pencil numbers on the back of the pages to show correct order. (8) Choice of type face etc is entirely up to you Lawrence Upton for both "on word" editors ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:27:29 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Re: housepress announces "COURIER: an anthology of concrete and visual poetry." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit you finished it! well done! L ----- Original Message ----- From: derek beaulieu To: Sent: 02 December 1999 02:00 Subject: housepress announces "COURIER: an anthology of concrete and visual poetry." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 08:11:51 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alicia Askenase Subject: Re: "Mirage #4/Period[ical]" #89, Atlanta issue MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Kevin, I would very much like a copy of your latest "Mirage #4 Period[ical] #89, Atlanta Issue. My address is: Alicia Askenase, Walt Whitman Cultural Arts Center, 2nd and Cooper Streets, Camden, NJ 08057. Thanks in advance--Alicia ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:00:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R. Drake" Subject: Forward: countdown to self-destruct In-Reply-To: <0.235c5dd9.2577de16@aol.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 23:08:32 -0800 >From: sloynic >Subject: countdown to self-destruct > > > 31 days remain before 'webbeat'99' removes itself from the web. if you >haven't visited for awhile, here's your opportunity. so much was learned, >& so much remains unknown. internet explorer & an imac ventured together >with apologies for what won't work with your browser or your machine. i >f o n l y . > november/december issues will be uploaded as created until, Y2K eve, when >fetch & your eds. have a date in webdocs to delete, in inverse order, >every thread contributed to the web. penelope's shroud. > > > > > > > october 'broken neck doll. to cats everywhere.' > (we mourn the loss of swallow and dasdo, our loving companions for nearly >19 years.) > breon ossella sings (wait for it to load in. link underlining at bottom >of page); rebik pulawniwsko's website for his sister and her beloved >animals is a quicktime movie made from screenshots of the website (wait to >load. link underlined text at bottom of page); guitarist, jake (the cat) >sekafetz tells his musical dream of salem, oregon band, the diggs (two >pages with link to jake's bio or go on to 'OH!') ; sloy's moving gif, >'Oh!'; fake beat hand with author links. > http://www.users.uswest.net/~gkann/ruby%27sopera.html > > september 'you want words.' > (two branches of the same tree: live and beep (as in beepers. ever >carried one?) > > 'LIVE' rick dawson takes it on. 3 pages with elevators: 'goodbye >bones'; 'whatssup?'; & 'circles revolve. once started they must end'; >(links at bottom of each page stream.) 'BEEP' john mock, reeling in loss, >fires an elevator stream of words in 'Y2K's hip/hop jesus.' (to read & >then to speed. put the mouse to the pedal, hold down arrow & see the >best streaming words in the world !) when done, click link at the bottom & >read the poet on his trigger in 'john bio.' > http://www.users.uswest.net/~gkann/livebeep.html > > august 'not enough room to move.' > > still stream/moving stream > 'screenshots': sloy shoots 14 stills & makes 14 pages of her imac >screens beginning with 'the way i see it,' and ending with 'under the beat >hand.' (remember, the screens are photos of screens, i.e., not live. > click on underlined words at bottom of each page, not on the images); > 'movies': nic's paintings on cardboard & driftwood turn and reveal >themselves in quicktime. view 'log,' 'tubes,' 'quandary,' 'navy colt,' & >'kill.' > http://www.users.uswest.net/~gkann/august.html > > july 'are you ready for Y2K?' > (guitar work, 'race car' by don edwards. double roll of t.p., >'buttwipe,' & 'no one told the truth' brown bag by sloy) > > 'a girl's guide to god' : jean erhardt's powerful & starkly beautiful >manifestos as revealed through the artist's & poet's passionate & bold >readings of the old & the new testaments. 'max's good life': max >chavez's photographs of family life. (links hidden in the pictures. > caress the screen with your mouse until the teensy hand appears, then >click!) evocative, larger-than-life glossies: 'trout,' 'tequilla,' >'gabrielle's sunglasses,' 'max & anita,' & 'sunset.' contributors' links >at bottom of page. > http://home.earthlink.net/~sloynic/readyforY2K.html > > june 'nudes & cars' > a series of 13 pages that include hidden hot spots, moving pictures, >confessional non-fiction, & sound. 'cargo' & 'highway star,' (wait for >the load-in) by nic & the dag: a red car on the road & a drumbeat; 'i >lost my funny bone,' 3 times, by sloy (find the hotspots); 'while you're >still in the pink,' hardons & blowup dolls seen on the web (link at the >bottom); 'the last leather stocking tale,' a true confession by tom >crawford involving a car, bondage, & a death-cum-wish, (click on 'walk on >water with my poetry'); 'leadsled,' ink strokes on paper, scanned & tiled, >by nic (click on 'slow ride to a sleeping woman' at bottom of page); > 'sleeping woman,' ink strokes on paper by nic (follow the >>>>);'self >nude,' & 'web hunk,' voluptuous acrylics on canvas, painted, photographed >& scanned by izak bales; 'asleep,' the finest moving art (gif) on the web >by nic; & finally, '53 chevy', seen on the web. (remember to check out > contributors' links on last page.) > http://home.earthlink.net/~sloynic/mayday.html > > > may 'nested tables & other work in the mill' > pagemill, the pagemaker included in the imac package, is used as sloy's >art. 'dear ma i never write or call'; 'twoblue moons'; & 'kent, >valsetz & other mill stories'; a series 3 pages of nested tables which >become pictograms. (move your cursor over the screen to find the >hotspots, that teensy hand, & what words or letters flash is also part of >whatever they add up to. pagemill for pagemill's sake & not for the sake >of the mill.) > 'cubio' is nic's moving cube. wait for it to load in & then be >hypnotized. 'THAT BOY,' the dag (jonny studer) on virtual drums; 'click >here! CLICK HERE! click here!' nested tables, a gif, & a click hot spot >somewhere. 'pumpo,' nic's animation in 3 parts. it's worth the wait for >the load to see the cells 'pumpo' as singles, each to its own rhythm, >until they are influenced into one > perfect beat in synch. 'transporting furniture to heaven,' a prismacolor >chair, & 'van of the skull,' a prismacolor van with guitarist, don >edwards's 'spacey 8' soundtrack. (641 k, on an uncongested web night and >a 56k modem; not a long wait. keep the view status bar on your browser >checked so you can watch loadins.) > http://home.earthlink.net/~sloynic/dearma.html > > april 'flamed & spammed' > > 'so begin somewhere,' 'the next nite,' & 'my friend tom,' 3 sloy writings >made using painting, an application for visual artists, pasted on a >scrolling page ( underlined text link at basement of the elevator); >'rollo: rollo: rollo: rollo: rollo,' nic's first computer generated >moving piece of art, a rolling anthropomorph (hot spot inside); > 'confessions of a seeker-recluse,' a page which invites the reader to >write & e some words (click the underlined text to send); 'the oracle has >spoken,' sloy's wallpapered writing with two hot spots. one way goes to >'GEE WOW,' before going to the destination of the other, 'mary magdalene, >spoiled children, & satan in high heels,' 3 postcards by nic, with cut >'live' (continuous) lines & pulp > fiction covers; 'bizzo,' a moving sawblade. oh yes, friends; it's all >so. flamed & spammed. > http://home.earthlink.net/~sloynic/sloywing.html > > > march 'beato, blobo, bumpo, catshit heaven' > a long blue stream of hopes to elevator down, a load-in. (hit refresh on >your browser if images are too slow.) 'beato,' a nic live-line painted in >appleworks; 'boho boys,' sloy's oil on blotter paper; 'blobo'; 'im gonna >b livin in catshit heaven'; 'bumpo'; 'scrap iron'; 'nicsloy'; &'sloy,' >nic's prismacolor portrait of sloy. > http://home.earthlink.net/~sloynic/babybeat3.html > > february 'fauna, wingnuts, death' > 'grabo'; 'hard 2b'; 'ncsloy'; '3wingnuts'; 'fauna'; 'mind if i join u' >(errol flynn's words as he flung himself down the hatch onto the orgy >below); & 'in memory of form,' black prismacolor on stonehenge paper, all >on one long green slide. > http://home.earthlink.net/~sloynic/babybeat2.html > > > january 'a car, booze, hoohoohoo' > the bloody beginning. 'cardboard chair on continuous line,' cardboard >sculpture on a cut/live line cardboard postcard; 'bamboozled,' oil paint >writing on 50'x54' pulp paper; 'sloy painting a bottle,' prismacolor >drawing of sloy painting on an empty macnaughton's whisky > convenience flask; ' starry nite whidbey from camano,' nic's prismacolor >of one island seen > >from another (whidbey from camano); 'booze or pie?' a choice; '56 >ford';& 'honeymoon,' > nic & sloy. > http://home.earthlink.net/~sloynic/babybeat1.html > > > about the issues & more 'the apposable thumb' > 'editors' will give you a pic of sloynic. 'about the issues,' 16 pages >of alice-down-the- rabbit-hole navigation elucidating everything. if you >dare, click 'the sleeper' & GO! 'contributors' is (so far) a stream of 11 >pages with links that take you everywhichway. webbeat'99's contributors >(& links to) include: > nic http://home.earthlink.net/~sloynic/clicklist.html > jonny (the dagger) studer > http://home.earthlink.net/~sloynic/virtualdagger.html > izak http://home.earthlink.net/~sloynic/izak.html > sloy http://home.earthlink.net/~sloynic/sacknersloy.html > don edwards http://home.earthlink.net/~sloynic/donedwards.html > tom crawford http://home.earthlink.net/~sloynic/wallpaper.html > john mock http://www.users.uswest.net/~gkann/johnbio.html > max chavez http://www.users.uswest.net/~gkann/maxbio.html > rick dawson http://www.users.uswest.net/~gkann/rickbio.html > breon ossella http://www.users.uswest.net/~gkann/fernetta.html > jake sekafetz http://www.users.uswest.net/~gkann/jakethecatwithfish.html > 'rebeat' is the long-lived & much exhibited, 4-issue tabloid by >publishers' clyde zettle, rick dawson, & sloynic, an offspring of the >beats & the mater/pater of ezine, webbeat'99. reviews. > 'e's to the eds' is a collection of the 6 responses webbeat'99 has >received in its 11 months & 1,506 hits since june 1, when a counter was >added to the beat hand. & they are WORTHY > responses: ruby, flakey foont, rainwulf, jake the cat, dave moore >(kerouac & beat scholar), & gara gillentine (unknown to the eds., but a >more generous & sharing reader could not be hoped for). > 'collophon' the few things used to make these pages. fonts we wished >you had. > 'the beat hand' belongs to nic. the ring is jenny zettle's, sloy's >paternal grandmother's gone. > bandages. true. newsprint background: rebeat. as in beat again. > > sloynic > dec1 11:30 PM '99 > > 'webbeat'99' > http://home.earthlink.net/~sloynic ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 18:17:25 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Readers Organization: Re*Map Magazine Subject: Re: "Mirage #4/Period[ical]" #89, Atlanta issue MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit something wrong with my computer kevin. but I'd love a copy. sorry to post this. I can't seem to e mail you direct either. Todd BaronKevin Killian wrote: > > Hi, it's Kevin Killian. Dodie Bellamy and I have turned over the new > issue of our zine "Mirage #4/Period[ical]" to the Atlanta Writers > Group ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:12:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: the lost retrograde MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The desultory thread on Lehman's book is interesting, full of mild and slightly positive sentiment. The dynamix of the list are perhaps somewhat illustrated by this; including the rapid turnover of regulars; ...When the book first came out, if memory serves, there was rather a lot of more engaged and heated discussion... Much of it pretty negative indeed. Among other fascinating aspects of the 'net, and this list, (all lists) is the quick and almost automatic "loss of memory" .. Oh, and of course: the group which has just edited the new issue of Mirage #4 is the APG, not the AWG... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:45:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: police riot in Seattle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Thank you very much David, for your post about the situation in Seattle. For those of us mostly dependent upon mass-media outlets, it's been difficult to get a true sense of the situation and I much appreciate your information. However, if you'll allow me, I do take some issue with this, from your post: "The point is to spend no money in Seattle. Yes, this will bring hardship to innocent merchants and employees, but Seattle authorities escalated these proceedings into a war, and in a war, innocent people do get hurt. There is no other way to bring pressure upon authorities to restrain their police." While I'm certainly no expert on how to restrain police, I'm rather a devotee of the idea that the ends does not justify the means--that the means rather is how one defines oneself and redefines modus operandi for others. Thus I'm quite hesitant to do anything where "innocent people get hurt" no matter what the "justification." One of the major points of the protests was to demonstrate against bad working conditions. If you boycott a "good" business with "good" labor practices, you're, well, cutting off your nose...etc. subverting your own intentions and dishonoring those who were in the line of fire in the first place. What if one of those with a "grapefruit" sized welt is actually the owner of a some bookstore, or eco-company, or even a gas station with decent pay for its employees, and, after protesting, this person returns to her/his business only to find that those who supported her/him, are now destroying their livelihood? I'd suggest instead targetting your boycott against those companies who support the WTO, write letters to the Mayor & media outlets, network with fellow protesters in Seattle to let them know we support them, and most important, keep the real news circulating. I know it's not as dramatic and immediate a solution, but it sure makes "us" different from "them." All best wishes, Marcella Durand ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:54:19 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Minyard Subject: Re: webcast: Silliman Osman Perelman Stefans MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/2/99 8:28:49 PM US Mountain Standard Time, afilreis@DEPT.ENGLISH.UPENN.EDU writes: << afilreis@english.upenn.edu >> Yes, I would like to participate in this webcast. I am in Arizona. Would it be possible to use a computer at the University rather than one in my home. Do I need an email address to sign on? Thanks. Susan Minyard ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 15:58:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: New from ROOF books (fwrd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" this message is forwarded from ROOF books *********************************** ROOF Books has just published two new titles: *poetics@* edited by Joel Kuszai ($18.95/192pp) 133 e-mails from this list & *Gorgeous Plunge* by Michael Gottlieb ($11.95/96pp) new poetry ROOF would like to offer them to this list only for a substantial discount. Members of this list can buy the books for: ******************************** poetics@ $15 & Gorgeous Plunge $9 including postage (which costs us $3) **If you order both books, total cost including postage is $20** You’ll save $14 To order, please send your check or money order with your mailing address to: Segue Foundation 303 East 8th Street New York, NY 10009 Contact: James Sherry 212-353-0555 jsherry@panix.com Publication Date: December 1, 1999 poetics@ poetics@ represents the first book of poetics to emerge from an electronic community, including 133 e-mails from 67 writers. ". . . the material for this book was mostly gathered from the first two years (and 10,000 printed pages) of the poetics list [at SUNY Buffalo] . . . The book represents . . . the beginning of a new era. Like all emergent technologies, the usefulness-to-poetry of electronic mail was not apparent until a few poets gained access." --Joel Kuszai, from the Introduction "Now I get the chance to play 'sender.'" --Robert Creeley, from his post "It is better, yes, to take the dance off the back-channel and perform in public. Posting is performance, a new kind of art; writing in motion, more like improvisation in jazz than literary composition--skywriting, lightwriting, sandpainting, here and gone, happening in time." --Kali Tal, from her post "Provides a window onto an ongoing, highly articulate, intensely percolating poetics-in-the making that is a fundamental feature of the most engaging and active poetry of our time. If anyone wonders what today's poets are thinking, what they are concerned about, what they value, this is a good place to start finding out." -- Charles Bernstein, from the Preface $18.95 ISBN 0-937804-79-7 192 pp. Publication Date: December 1, 1999 Gorgeous Plunge Michael Gottlieb Given the format of "language" and all the resonance of that inexorable surface, Michael Gottlieb leaps from echo to "every aging minute"--and onward, leaving a shimmering track of impressive brilliance. Words never had it so good nor did anyone ever so track them to their lair, wherein they at last cry out, "I'd like to say," or "Having said that," or "You never know." -- Robert Creeley In Michael Gottlieb's Gorgeous Plunge, poets are the "we" of it. My generation at last, vanishing on the horizon. It's poetry--squibs of it, streams of it, pithy spoonfuls and dropped doses--one last squeeze of the tube-- that narrates by position of its clock hands--much like the narrator does in Robert Musil's epic The Man Without Qualities--the difficult and even giddy moment in which one faces one's culture and understands in a mute turning, what it is to be a man. --Eileen Myles In the continuing battle between life and death at the end of the century, Michael Gottlieb's Gorgeous Plunge declares itself on the side of life. As a phenomenal account of self-consciousness within structures it can only partially authorize, Michael Gottlieb's work addresses the broad horizons of utopia, the chilling defiles of the economy, and the scrutable immediacies of everyday life. --Barrett Watten Michael Gottlieb is the author of eight books of poetry including Local Color/Eidetic Deniers, Ninety-Six Tears (also published by Roof Books), New York and The River Road. His work has appeared in magazines and anthologies for the past twenty years. In the late 70s and early 80s he helped edit one of Language Poetry's seminal periodicals, Roof Magazine. A child of the suburbs, Michael Gottlieb presently lives in Northwestern Connecticut with his wife and two children. 96 pages ISBN: 0-937804-80-0 $11.95 Roof Books are distributed by Small Press Distribution, 1341 Seventh Avenue, Berkeley, CA. 94710-1403. Phone orders: 800-869-7553 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:32:06 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Re: WTO Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed David Bromige wrote - >Cities will have to live with the fact that the USA allows peaceful assembly of dissidents. Unfortunately, David, to be quite frank, Amerika DOES NOT allow peaceful assembly that much any more. The legal protections for peaceful protesters have been disappearing for a long time. Amerika is a police state. Your only protection in Amerika is money, connections. Land of the free, home of the brave is really land of the fee, home of the knave. And then, lest we forget, there's always agent provocateur activities within many political movements in the US, people paid to make the peaceful look violent. This was a wonderful note, David. I am very glad you shared it with everyone. What you are saying in your note is indeed what is going on. I have a good friend who is at Capitol Hill in the middle of it and I am worried about him. Under a state of emergency, the city of Seattle made it illegal to use a gaskmask, and the penalty is 180 days in jail and/or a large fine. Patrick ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:40:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Organization: e.g. Subject: [Fwd: 2 jobs at ucla design/media arts] MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Freewaves@aol.com wrote: > #1 > > ASSISTANT/ASSOCIATE/FULL PROFESSOR > > OF DESIGN | MEDIA ARTS > > The UCLA Department of Design (www.design.ucla.edu), which is currently in > > the process of changing its name to the UCLA Department of Design | Media > > Arts, is seeking a qualified individual with experience in one or more of > > the following areas: interface design between virtual and physical worlds; > > innovative type design, 3D modeling and animation; and creative programming > > for Web-based, interactive and/or virtual environments. > > The successful candidate will be expected to teach studio and lecture > > courses at both undergraduate and graduate levels, contribute to the > > department's vision, and to undertake independent research and creative > > activity appropriate for advancement within the University of California. > > Qualifications: Distinction as a professional artist in the area of Design > > and Media Arts. Advanced degree and teaching experience in a university > > setting are preferred. Administrative experience in an academic or > > professional setting is also desirable. Level of appointment and salary will > > be determined by the candidate's qualifications and professional experience. > > Applications should include a letter stating your artistic and educational > > philosophy and approach to teaching, accompanied by a complete resume or > > curriculum vitae and the names, phone numbers, mail and e-mail addresses of > > three references qualified to provide knowledgeable evaluation of your > > qualifications. Please do not send additional supporting materials until > > they are requested. Application deadline: February 1, 2000, or until filled. > > Address letters of application to: Professor Victoria Vesna, Chair, Search > > Committee, Department of Design, 1300 Dickson Art Center, Los Angeles, CA > > 90095-1608. > > The University of California, Los Angeles is an Equal > > Opportunity/Affirmative Action Employer. Proof of U.S. citizenship or > > eligibility for U.S. employment will be required prior to employment > > (Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986). > > .... > > #2 > > ASSISTANT/ASSOCIATE/FULL PROFESSOR > > OF DESIGN | MEDIA THEORY > > The UCLA Department of Design (www.design.ucla.edu), which is currently in > > the process of changing its name to the UCLA Department of Design | Media > > Arts, is seeking a qualified theorist who has an extensive publication > > record and at least one major work dealing with issues of design/media arts. > > Curatorial and some practical experience in digital media is preferred. > > The successful candidate will be expected to teach studio and lecture > > courses at both undergraduate and graduate levels and to undertake > > independent research and publication appropriate for advancement within the > > University of California. > > Qualifications: Distinction as a theorist in the area of Design and Media > > Arts. Ph.D. degree and teaching experience in a university setting are > > preferred. Administrative experience in an academic or professional setting > > is also desirable. Level of appointment and salary will be determined by the > > candidate's qualifications and professional experience. > > Applications should include a letter stating your artistic and educational > > philosophy and approach to teaching, accompanied by a complete resume or > > curriculum vitae and the names, phone numbers, mail and e-mail addresses of > > three references qualified to provide knowledgeable evaluation of your > > qualifications. Please do not send additional supporting materials until > > they are requested. Application deadline: February 1, 2000, or until filled. > > Address letters of application to: Professor Victoria Vesna, Chair, Search > > Committee, Design and Media Theory, Department of Design, 1300 Dickson Art > > Center, Los Angeles, CA 90095-1608. > > The University of California, Los Angeles is an Equal > > Opportunity/Affirmative Action Employer. Proof of U.S. citizenship or > > eligibility for U.S. employment will be required prior to employment > > (Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986). ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:52:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: lisa robertson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone have an updated email address for Lisa Robertson? Can someone help me with this? Is there one of you out there who would go to the trouble of looking up Lisa Robertson's email address for me, one that is current? Can I possibly ask someone to look up an email address for me? Could it be you that I am searching for, one of you who holds the address to Lisa Robertson's email home? Is it now, here, in this place, that I will find the email address of one of you, who is, nonetheless, not a subscriber? Might it be soon that someone will preoccupy their own thoughts with this request? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:53:30 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: More on WTO Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 23:54:31 EST From: JaredI@aol.com COLLATERAL DAMAGE IN SEATTLE by Portland student/reporter Jim Desyllas Called-in from a pay phone outside Seattle. Wed., 7:30 pm Pacific time. (Posted at www.emperors-clothes.com 12-2-99. Feel free to distribute in full including this note.) I just spent 4 days in Seattle. The "information" people are getting from the mass media is false. This was not, as Pres. Clinton claims, a peaceful protest marred by the actions of violent protesters. This was a massive, strong but peaceful demonstration which was attacked repeatedly by the police with the express purpose of provoking a violent response to provide photo opportunities for the Western media. I know because I watched it happening. I'll tell you how they did it. As Michel Chossudovsky says in his "Disarming the New World Order" (See Note # 1 at end for link to that article) - the government put a lot of effort into making sure the protesters in Seattle were a "loyal opposition" who wanted to reform the WTO, not get rid of it. But the people in Seattle - American steel workers, Canadian postal workers, college kids from all over, environmentalists from Australia - you name it - were not for reforming the WTO. They were for getting rid of it. And this wasn't just true of the protesters. I interviewed delegates. None of them had anything favorable to say about the WTO. Two delegates from the Caribbean were angry about job loss. One delegate from Peru took a bullhorn and got up on a car and spoke to the protestors against the World Trade Organization. He said it hurts the workers and farmers. I interviewed a Norwegian guy from Greenpeace. Totally against it. Even a delegate from Holland said it had hurt the farmers there. He said though it is supposedly democratic, that's actually a lie: the US, England and Canada and a few others get together and decide what they want to do. Then they ask the rest of the countries to vote and if they vote wrong they threaten,"You won't get loans," or whatever. They get them to do what they want by blackmailing them. The Italians we interviewed were upset too. I couldn't find any delegates who were in favor. So the government instigated a "riot" to discredit the movement against the WTO because they couldn't dilute it. I am not guessing about this. I was there. I saw it happening. And I will tell you I am frankly shocked to see, close up, just how little our leaders care what happens to ordinary people. Clinton can pose and speak a lot of flowery stuff but the truth is - we are nothing to them. I saw this with my own eyes. Sunday and Monday, there was no violence. None. The people were aggressively non-violent; they were self-policing. Up until Tuesday at 4pm there was one window broken in the whole city - a McDonalds window. This compares favorably to the typical rock concert, let alone a demonstration of people who were non-violently barring entry to the World Trade Center! At this point, a new group of police - tactical police - moved in and started gassing people and shooting rubber bullets. Is it any surprise that people got mad? Of course, the young kids hit back by breaking some windows in retaliation for being gassed, sprayed with very painful pepper gas, and shot with dangerous "rubber" bullets. The police instigated these kids, plain and simple. Sunday and Monday they had young cops, using them to block the streets. These were trainees. But Tuesday they had the real cops; none of them were young. They were trained to attack people. A small group, maybe 100 people total, struck back. Then these cops herded that group around the city, making sure there were plenty of photo ops of "violent protesters." A number of times they had these 100 or so protesters caught between buildings and walls of police. They could easily have arrested and detained this small number of people and gotten it over with. Instead they would gas them and let them go. Then trap them again, gas them again, and again let them go. The cops made no arrests that I know of until late Tuesday night though the skirmishing was going on from three till 9:30. The cops would blockade three or five blocks of an area, give the angry kids room to operate, keep gassing them - when you gas a person, let me tell you, it gets them fighting mad. Tuesday night the police gassed all of downtown. This was going on from 3 PM, till 6 PM.. Gas everywhere. The kids broke a few windows - McD's, Starbucks - small stuff - burned a few garbage cans. The police were using these people as extras. It was staged. I believe also the police had their own people in there, encouraging people to break stuff - if people think I may be exaggerating, I saw supposed protesters - they were screaming and so on - and then later, when everything was over, the same people tackled other protestors and put handcuffs on them. At 6pm they issued a State of Emergency. At that point they had pushed the 100 people outside the city limits, so the police went outside the limits too, and they started gassing that area too, gassing the neighborhoods where the regular people live. I am not exaggerating. The police were relentless. This was in an area from the city limits for about 10 blocks to the Seattle Central Community College. If you were alive, the police gassed you. People coming back from work, kids, women, everyone. People would go out of their houses to see what was happening because these tear gas guns sound like a cannon - and they would get gassed. A block away there was a Texaco gas station - they threw tear gas at gas pumps, believe it or not - they were like vandals. They gassed a bus. I saw it with my own eyes. A bus. The driver, the riders, the people just abandoned it . I was sitting in a little coffee shop called Rauhaus, [Jim did not spell this - the spelling may be wrong.] They were shooting "rubber" bullets at the glass. I picked up a dozen of the things in a few square feet. They were also shooting this paint that you can only see with a florescent light. They would paint anyone and everyone and then go hunting them. Anyway, because they were gassing everybody, the local people got mad too and they joined the 100 who had been herded out of the city. So soon there were 500 including the neighborhood people and all very angry. Naturally. Because they had been gassed and hit with pepper spray, that stuff does a number on you. And shot with these damn bullets. Then people set up barricades at Seattle Central Community College. The cops organized themselves for about an hour and then moved in and gassed that area. Today they started mass arrests. That was because Clinton - the Greeks call him the Planitarchis, Ruler of the World - was coming. Weeping crocodile tears about how he just LOVES peaceful protest, which of course you'd have to be two years old to believe he had nothing to do with the police action. This whole thing, this police attack, this was US foreign policy, not some action decided by some bureaucrat in Seattle. This was the State Department. They wanted to discredit the people. When things started on Sunday, there was a protest rally of solidarity involving people from different walks of life. Monday it got even bigger. Tuesday there was a big sort of carnival where people were doing different things, a band was playing music and people were blocking the World Trade Center. And about 3 PM the cops started throwing tear gas. The thing that drove Clinton crazy was that on Tuesday the protesters had succeeded in making nonviolent human chains and had therefore stopped everyone from going into the World Trade Center. Only maybe 27 delegates got through, mostly US and British. There were what seemed like tens of thousands of protesters involved. So the police did their gassing number against these nonviolent people to break up the human chains and make the protesters look violent. Today (Wednesday) I followed the union protest put together by the Longshoremen's Union. They went down to the docks and had a rally then marched to Third Avenue. As soon as they got there the cops started gassing them. There was an old lady there. She had gone downtown by bus to buy something. This lady was in her 70's and I saw her trying to run, but she couldn't breathe. She was in shock. I carried her to a building entryway. She was gasping, terrified. She had been in Germany, and it was like she was having flashbacks. The tear gas sounds like gunfire and there were helicopters overhead, sirens, cops on horses, everything. They had clearly made a decision to destroy this movement. So anyway there I was with her in this building and she wanted to go to the hospital but there was tear gas everywhere and I was afraid if I tried to move her she'd be gassed again. I went to this line of cops and begged - I mean begged - these riot police to help her. They ignored me. A girl told me later that a one year old had been gassed. And I myself saw a girl no more than 18 - a cop had busted her lip wide open - she was bleeding - and then they gassed everyone including her. After that she was kneeling on the ground crying like a baby and praying for 15 minutes, Hail Mary, Hail Mary. Over and over. She was in a state of shock. They just gassed these people who were sitting down non-violently and doing nothing. Nothing. At one point the Seattle Mayor said his boys were not using rubber bullets. Miraculously, by then I had ten in my pocket. I could open a little market, sell the things. They are everywhere. I and other people started giving them to delegates and stuff. "See what they're doing? They're shooting "rubber" bullets and lying about it." We showed them to the media. I guess enough people and the media got the information because the Mayor made a new statement then that they were using them. As if he hadn't known. They shot rubber bullets from four feet away into the face of a guy next to me, broke all his front teeth. When that happened I lost it. I forgot I was supposed to be getting the news for all of you and I started yelling at the cops, "What the hell is wrong with you? Are you sick, man?" So this cop aimed his gun right at me. That was his answer. So I first put my hands in front of my face because I didn't want to lose my teeth. And then I thought, to hell with it. I was wearing my target shirt that said "Collateral Damage", you know? With a bullseye target, like they wore during the bombing in Yugoslavia. And I told this guy, "Go ahead, shoot! Here! Here's the target!" He didn't shoot me. I want to emphasize, these protesters were NOT violent people. They were the most non-violent people I have ever seen. Even when I was screaming at the cop, this girl came up to me and said, "Do not scream. This is non-violent." These people were too much to believe. They must meditate all the time, I don't know. Clinton said he supports nonviolent protest. That is baloney. Today (Wed.) the protesters were causing absolutely no "trouble". In downtown the cops had people running who weren't even protesters - like that old lady or just people going to work or shopping - everyone was getting gassed. The busses weren't running because of the gas. I was lucky to catch one with a driver who could still see. I begged him to drive the old lady home - the driver changed his route especially for her. If you want to find human decency, stay away from the Planitarchis. Go to the to regular people. They have some. The Planitarchis lost all his years ago. Now he wouldn't know human decency if it came up and bit him. So now I have made personal acquaintance with the people who run this country, and they are quite simply scum. There were people at work, people with babies, they were all getting gassed because the government would not allow an assembly of people speaking their minds. It is the same as what happened in Athens. Clinton's requirements on the Greek government created the riot and he did the same thing here. And then he says he supports nonviolent protest? How? By shooting rubber bullets? And today they outlawed gas masks. They want to make sure everyone gets his money's worth. Today, just like yesterday night, the police were in the residential neighborhoods. People in cafés were getting gassed and shot at, you could hear it on the windows, bang, bang, bang. A guy trying to cross the street to go to his house got gassed. First a drunk guy outside a bar yelled at the cops "Get out of here!" so they gassed him. And then this other guys was just crossing the street to go home so the cops figured, might as well gas him too. People got gassed for coming out of restaruants and bars and coffeee shops. I'm amazed that nobody died who had asthma or something. Or maybe somebody did die and they didn't talk about it. I mean after all, it's just collateral damage.. *** ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:52:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: readings next week Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Monday, December 6th at 8 pm (sign-up at 7:30) The last open mike of 1999--at the Poetry Project anyhow. We've been getting excited calls about this one all month, so come join in the (predicted) chaos! Wednesday, December 8th at 8 pm David Henderson & David Cameron David Henderson is the author of Neo-California, published this year by North Atlantic Books, and of Skuse Me While I Kiss the Sky: The Life of Jimi Hendrix. Henderson has done many collaborations with jazz musicians such as Ornette Coleman, Sun Ra, Burt Turetsky, and Butch Morris, and he is currently at work on a CD which collects many of these performances. David Cameron is the author of two collections of false translations of Charles Baudelaire's Les Fleurs du Mal--Flurries of Mail and Dirty Mom. He's also been working on a sequence of variations on the Lord's Prayer, titled L.P. Friday, December 10th at 10:30 pm Night of Taboos Part I: Private Parts, Therapists & Eating Disorders with readings and performances by Elena Georgiou, Jaclyn Piudik, Kathleen Ossip, Anne Elliot, Daniel Nester, & Shira Dentz. *** Admission to regular Poetry Project events is $7, $4 for students/seniors. No advance tickets. Admission is at the door. The Poetry Project is wheelchair-accessible with assistance and advance notice. Please call (212) 674-0910 for more information. The Poetry Project is located in St. Mark's Church at the corner of 2nd Ave. & 10th St. in Manhattan. *** If you wish to be removed from this list, respond to this message with "please remove me" in the subject line & we will certainly do so... *** A small excerpt from Brendan Lorber's _The Address Book_, "131 E 10th" [our address, yes]: "& dressing a poem in addresses sets a mood like tables with the spooning couples in place of silverware but who will know my grandparents in 1950 at 1261 Madison Ave & I at their age an hour ago 100 St Marks Place How's my pace? There's no such thing as a late bloomer or being well-travelled I lost all sense of virginity in 823 Butterfield C Middletown CT My mind went all together at 58 Cumberland San Francisco & at the corner of 1st & 1st I found God & lost my Metrocard which is why I'm late to your gig" Until next week... *** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:30:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R. Drake" Subject: Re: Humble seed In-Reply-To: <38474BA1.A75BBA71@eznet.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii why would one want to make a Book out of Online work? would that "validate" it somehow? or make it a more marketable Commodity? and why would one want to arbitrate for others what is "The Best" (and, by exclusion, The Rest, all the Other...)? or why would one give another the power to arbiter that work for them? [the tone of my speaking voice, asking these questions, is not intended to be as "hostile" as the written version might seem... since i suspect steve tills suggestion is aimed to promote online works, and i share that as a goal...] luigi burning press http://www.burningpress.org/va/vaintro.html >So what would it look like, _The Best American Poetry Online_, culled >from 75 experimental hypertext mags, if say three-four-five hundred >experimental poets each pitched in 20 small bucks for their own two >copies a piece and maybe another 20 little dollars to get a coupla >copies into every Bans and Ignoble and Aborters big comfortable public >libraries/stores in the country? Some cunning >with Amazon.com and the publishers and others could also help... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:47:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Kane Subject: e-mail query MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII anyone have an e-mail address for Rachel Blau DuPlessis? If so, please backchannel to dkane@panix.com. thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 18:32:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Lennon Subject: Jameson's Perelman Comments: cc: perelman@dept.english.upenn.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A few months back I requested help tracking down cites for counter-commentary on Jameson's discussion of Perelman. Thanks to all who responded. ---BL Jameson, Frederic. Postmodernism, or, The Cultural Logic of Late Capitalism. Durham: Duke University Press, 1991. Armantrout, Rae. "Irony and Postmodern Poetry." Moving Borders: Three Decades of Innovative Writing by Women. Ed. by Mary Margaret Sloan. Jersey City: Talisman House, 1998: 674-679. Golding, Alan. From Outlaw to Classic: Canons in American Poetry. Wisconsin, 1995. Hartley, George. "Jameson's Perelman: Reification and the Material Signifier." Textual Politics and the Language Poets. Bloomington and Indianapolis: Indiana UP, 1989: 42-52. Perelman, Bob. "Parataxis and Narrative: The New Sentence in Theory and Practice." The Marginalization of Poetry: Language Writing and Literary History. Princeton: Princeton UP, 1996: 59-78. von Hallberg, Robert. "Poetry, Politics, and Intellectuals." The Cambridge History of American Literature, Volume 8: Poetry and Criticism. Ed. by Sacvan Bercovitch. Cambridge: Cambridge UP, 1996. 9-260. see also Silliman, Ron. The New Sentence. New York: Roof, 1985. Useful critiques and periodizations of Jameson's postmodernism: Best, Steven. "Jameson, Totality, and the Poststructuralist Critique." Postmodernism/Jameson/Critique. Washington, D.C.: Maisonneuve Press, 1989. 333-368 Featherstone, Mike. "Postmodernism, Cultural Change, and Social Practice." Postmodernism/Jameson/Critique. Washington, D.C.: Maisonneuve Press, 1989. 117-138. Helming, Steven. "Jameson's Postmodernism: Version 2.0." Postmodern Culture 9.2 http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/postmodern_culture/v009/9.2.r_helmling.html -----. "Marxist Pleasure: Jameson and Eagleton." Postmodern Culture 6.1. http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/postmodern_culture/v006/6.1consenstein.html Kellner, Douglas. "Introduction: Jameson, Marxism, and Postmodernism." Postmodernism/Jameson/Critique. Washington, D.C.: Maisonneuve Press, 1989. 2-37. Shumway, David R. "Jameson / Hermeneutics / Postmodernism." Postmodernism/Jameson/Critique. Washington, D.C.: Maisonneuve Press, 1989. 172-202. bml18@columbia.edu http://www.columbia.edu/~bml18 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:16:24 -0800 Reply-To: degentesh@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Katie Degentesh Organization: Pretty good Subject: Re: CLASS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is this the CLASS LIST or the POETICS LIST? I'm mainly a lurker, but I've been reading, or at least skimming, everyone's posts for months and it seems to me that ALL ANYONE EVER TALKS ABOUT IS CLASS. OK, I'm exaggerating, but seriously: Are you people writers or civil rights activists? Is discussion of a poem's actual structure or technique or craft to be disdained courtesy of the old PC argument that only people who are wealthy enough to have a certain amount of time on their hands can afford to pay attention to poetry? Obviously we ALL have at least that much time on our hands -- so why does the discussion always turn to how people's (class/race/gender/blah blah blah) informs their work? The ways in which a writer's life informs her/his work are, I agree, useful or interesting in a discussion of said work, and (class/race/gender/blah blah blah) is certainly part of every writer's life, but it seems to me that many of you are focusing on that part to the exclusion of other interesting things. It might be good for you to get off your collective classes once in a while. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 16:07:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: Double Lucy & Outlet updates Comments: cc: twoswirl@aol.com, Jilith@aol.com, brandon downing , cburket@sfsu.edu, mmagee@english.upenn.edu, adrian_wiggins@optusnet.com.au, Cydney Chadwick , Dana Teen Lomax , dbuuck@sirius.com, Jerrold Shiroma , Rebecca Wolff , grace@hirschdevelopment.com, Gwyn McVay , intrsect@wenet.net, ixnaypress@aol.com, John Tranter , jdebrot@aol.com, jessica.grim@oberlin.edu, jenho@MINDSPRING.COM, Johanna Isaacson , Joe Ross , juliette guilbert , Kathy Lou Schultz , kdegent@itsa.ucsf.edu, kenning@avalon.net, laura@spdbooks.org, lgudath@yahoo.com, Bary Leslie , lvrusso@acsu.buffalo.edu, lwaldner@cornell-iowa.edu, Marcella Durand , Mary Burger , margie_cronin@hotmail.com, J Kuszai , Batshira@aol.com, murphym@earthlink.net, mudlark@unf.edu, neavey@hotmail.com, kdickson@ucla.edu, nguynn@aol.com, Pamela Lu , clarkd@sfu.ca, sarathal@concentric.net, smang@earthlink.net, selby@slip.net, smithnash@earthlink.net, knezevic@cinenet.net, djmess@sunmoon.com, teresa moore , yedd@aol.com, kfraser@sfsu.edu, jocelyn@sfsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" (1) now in its second printing: Outlet (4/5) Weathermap 92 pp double issue featuring - New Poetry and Prose by: Norma Cole Sarah Anne Cox Noah de Lissovoy Patrick F. Durgin Taj Jackson Jeffrey Jullich Pamela Lu Michael Magee Sarah Mangold Chris McCreary Gwyn McVay Michelle Murphy Susan Smith Nash Stephen Ratcliffe Christopher Reiner Camille Roy Kathy Lou Schultz E. Cameron Scott Heather Sweeney John Tranter Elizabeth Treadwell Liz Waldner + Reportage: An Interview: Kathleen Fraser's "Provisional Answers to Some Questions" by Sarah Anne Cox A History: "Publishing a Community: Women Publishers at the Poetry Project" by Marcella Durand & Reviews: Jacques Debrot on Laynie Browne's _The Agency of Wind_, Linda Russo on Susan Gevirtz's _Black Box Cutaway_, Charles Alexander on Jessica Grim's _Fray_. $5 -- cheap! -- checks to E. Treadwell -- Excerpts from this & previous issues are featured at our website ----------------------------------------------------------- (2): Outlet will be going annual this coming year. We are reading for Outlet (6) Stars beginning New Year's Day. Details are at: http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy/page5.html ---------------------------------------------------------- (3): barring y2k, our cyber-anthology, LUCY HOUSE: AN ANTHOLOGY OF PROSE will be up at our site sometime in January, featuring work by David Buuck, Cydney Chadwick, Brenda Coultas, John Frederick, Johanna Isaacson, Susan M. Schultz, & Liz Waldner, with more to come throughout the Spring. Happy holy days! Elizabeth ___________________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell, Editor Double Lucy Books & Outlet Magazine P.O. Box 9013 Berkeley, CA 94709 USA http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 18:30:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: about class... In-Reply-To: <199912031656.LAA02976@relay.thorn.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" just became aware of an electronic list devoted to class issues, "working-class-list"... to sub, send the following message subscribe to working-class-list-request@list.acs.uwosh.edu i'm not subbed at the moment, but my partner (kass) is, and she's forwarding me the posts... judging by the (somewhat heated) discussion there in the past few days, i think all of us here who are interested in class issues might wanna have a look... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 19:28:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: language and context Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >The other sentence that bothers me is the casual "in a war, innocent people >do get hurt".... I know David was using it >in reference to "financial hurt".. but it's a slippery slope to start down. Well, now we can bring this back to poetics. Tom is correct to contextualize my sentence--not at all "casual"---but it is odd that he then worries that I will forget context and start down some metaphorical slippery slope.... It's as if I was trying to rid myself of a fly and you, Tom, passing the window, heard me cry "Kill it!" and ran to phone the cops...Keep on jammin', bro. David ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:16:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard Dillon Subject: Re: WTO : reports of the police riot in Seattle Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit THEORY: Those POLICE were not Seattle's. Such operatives were guarding the Bildersburger Group meeting in Atlanta at which a presumptive friend of many on this list -Hillary Rodham Clinton- spoke in 1997. Know the enemy. Ask yourselves one question: Is Justice Bork a member of the team that fielded those Black Ops? Think harder. ---------- >From: david bromige >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: WTO : reports of the police riot in Seattle >Date: Thu, Dec 2, 1999, 7:22 PM > >Listmates : this ain't poetry nor poetics, but it has a foot in >kultur-kritik. I know how hard it can be to get any news that hasnt been >masticated then turned into daily rejectamenta by the corpsemedia---our >local paper, an organ of the NYT, airbrushed yesterday's reign of terror by >police forces, and had a fatuous editorial turning the violence of a dozen >anarchists and a handful of thugs (agents provocateurs?) into 5,000 >peaceful protestors going ape. And so now we dont need to pay further >attention to any critcism of the WTO, because if we did criticize it, we'd >be nut-cases (as the Estonian delegate said). > >Because I live within range of radio station kpfa, I am able to forward >eye-witness accounts heard yesterday, by live feed from Seattle. And so I >shall---with apologies to those who would like to see this List stick to >its poetics mission. > >These reports testify to "overkill" violence on the part of police forces >in Seattle. Faced with peaceful protests and passive resistance, the forces >of law-n-order fired rubber bullets pointblank at seated protestors, in >attempts to clear a 50-block area that the mayor had (with dubious >constitutionality) placed off-limits to free speech. > >In many previous such demonstrations in other cities, protestors have been >removed by hands-on methods, with ultimate success for the police. In >Seattle, police fired rubber bullets into the faces of those who were in >their way, breaking teeth and raising grapefruit-sized welts. A young woman >who was among those helping out at a field station by tending the wounded, >said that many injured men had been shot in the groin, likewise pointblank. >Others had their wounds in the back, sustained as they complied with police >demands that they vacate the area. People were trapped in order to be >teargassed [note : as I saw happen at UC Berkeley in 1968] rather than >being allowed to disperse. > >She also testified that she and other workers were ordered to remove the >red cross armbands they wore to identify themselves, and had their medical >supplies confiscated. This meant that protestors who had been teargassed >(often, also at pointblank range) were denied water and swabs to relieve >the pain of the searing and choking gas. She said, too, that (this in >contrast to wire-service reports today of "several injured") she and her >colleagues had treated more than a hundred sufferers. > >I am a student of voices. This woman was telling the truth, on this I stake >myself....although I can well imagine the corporate media would, did they >have to deal with her at all, frame her as a dupe or tool. > >The list of civil rights violations, physical or otherwise, could go on and >on, but this is e-mail, so I forbear. > >Many of these police, in riot gear, displayed no badges nor was it possible >to know to which adminstrative unit they belonged----Seattle police, King's >County marshalls, Washington State police, Highway Patrol, federal agents, >National Guard. The Mayor has done some hand-wringing, but like it or not >he, Paul Schell, bears ultimate responsibility. > >What one wants to do with this information is a seperate question. My >sympathies lie with those who believe we must find a way to ensure such >police-riots cannot be permitted (as surely this one was encouraged) to >occur again. > >In a move to compel the Mayor and his supporters to bear this >responsibility, and to persuade the administrations of other cities in >future situations where civil disobedience occurs, not to allow their >police to go mad-dog (then wring their hands upon the fait accompli), many >of us are urging a one-year boycott of the city of Seattle. We are trying >to reach the Mayor to let him know the terms of this boycott. We think it >should last for one year unless there is further police brutality today, in >which case it should be extended to two years, and so on. > >The boycott---based upon the grounds that Seattle cannot police its own >police, thereby rendering the city unsafe to any persons---asks that you >not travel to Seattle any time between Dec 5, 1999, and Dec. 5, 2000. If >you need to drive thru the city, please gas up and get food in communities >on either side of the city. The point is to spend no money in Seattle. Yes, >this will bring hardship to innocent merchants and employees, but Seattle >authorities escalated these proceedings into a war, and in a war, innocent >people do get hurt. There is no other way to bring pressure upon >authorities to restrain their police. At best one gets an official inquiry, >which exonerates the wrong-doers. If we can hit Seattle in the money-belt, >those who feel the pinch the most will exert their own pressure on rogue >officials. An example will be made of Seattle to prevent any repetition of >such police overkill, in any other venue. > >With an outfit such as the WTO, consisting of delegates not elected by us, >yet empowered to overturn our labor and environmental laws, there is >nowhere to take our disagreement but to the streets---there, and the Net. >The corpsemedia will distort these issues beyond sense. Ergo, the streets >have to made safer for demonstrators. Or do we want a future where an >unreachable WTO wrecks our lives and our one arena of action is owned by >uniformed sadists? > >Cities will have to live with the fact that the USA allows peaceful >assembly of dissidents. There are going to be people in the street for as >long as we are denied other avenues to protest the undemocratic rule of the >WTO---which can overturn national and state and local environmental laws, >which can force our nation to import the products of child- and >slave-labor, and which can bring about further export of jobs from the USA >to countries with no regulatory sanctions that protect their workers or >their environment. In the meantime, cities must not be allowed to get away >with super-violence faits accomplis. > >The President himself told the WTO yesterday that he approved of the >peaceful protestors being in the streets---at the same time that police >were carrying out this violence against these president-approved persons. >Judge for yourself whether this was cynical on his part or not....perhaps >he is merely a dupe. > >Further sanctions are possible, and one would be to refuse to buy any >product manufactured in Seattle. > >Please spread the word, and qualify the consequences for fascism in >whatever way you wish. > >Thanks for your attention. > >David Bromige. > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:50:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Read: 4 times MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII \ Read: 3 times 00 Let X = tan(approaching 90 degrees) 10 # in a very pure land 20 # this is not a very pure land 30 Print X in pixels and GOTO 00 40 and when this is all over go back to 00 50 and when back at 00 make the raster finer 60 # making it finer makes X go greater 70 # X is so very great! 80 X is so very great it begins to escape the screen! 90 X escapes all screens! 100 quick quick cat X > /dev/null 110 /dev/null begins to bloat with Pixel-X! 120 # /dev/null is crafty 130 /dev/null empty as fast as /dev/null is full! 140 X can go on and on and is very tired but /dev/null is not! 150 # this happens when I am very tired 160 I am very tired, emptying X in all its forms 170 # this is the end of the world 180 it is not a very pure land ____________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 08:29:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: poets & our cliches Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To amplify (and to clarify, i hope) my response to tom raworth's post : when i used the cliche "in war, innocent people do get hurt", tom transferred it from where he got it (a highly contextualized situation, as he initially acknowledged, in which "hurt" is economic) to images of refugees being bombed... however he got down that slippery slope, he then employed the cliche "slippery slope" to warn me lest i lay aside my pen and pick up my uzi. But when i heard tom's anxiety as encoded in "s.s.", ," i thought of "grave misgivings", a bleeding-heart liberal cliche excuse for doing nothing, and even of "it wouldnt be prudent," a fascist excuse for doing nothing. tom conjured me leading the easily misled, from economic sanctions to blitzkrieg; hence his "slippery slope." but i have no further ambitions concerning czeckoslovakia, except to learn how to spell it. i am surprised to have the "slippery slope" sanctions imposed upon me, by a man who must have had as many friends as i, imprisoned by those authorities on marijuana who know it always leads to heroin. Anyway, let me say further re economic sanctions against seattle that, as david antin says, in approving the notion, it will be hard to get the word out. agreed, so we dont expect this action to bring catastrophic hardship to any one person. a reduction, maybe, of 3% in annual profits. but the effect is cumulative, and what we hope for is sufficient reduction in seattle's income to have a negative impact on their budget, so that certain "essential" services--we suggest, the police--have to be cut back. it is the police, first and foremost, who need to be taught a lesson in restraint. But too, it is the city adminstrators who slip the police's leashes, who have to learn the hard way, and when big stores lose 3%, thats a lot of latte, and a corresponding increase in pressure on city hall to consider the consequences of police violence. The purpose of this, as i understand it, is not primarily punitive but minatory---to prevent future demonstrations from being clobbered by city hall in other venues. i like david antin's suggestion re microsoft. of course, already existing product from m.s has to be considered as grandfathered in. but for the next year, it wd be great if bill gates (a mighty fan of the w.t.o.) received less income from us outraged & nugatory chickens at the far end of the coop. db ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:39:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerrold Shiroma Subject: Small Press Publications... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This weeks Small Press Publications List is up & running @ duration. The submissions to this page have been getting noticeably slim (in terms of number of folks sending in information). Makes me wonder if I should keep this up...would like any feedback anyone has to offer. Any publishers who want their publications listed on the next posting (Dec 18), should send along all information (titles, authors, price, contact / ordering information) to jerrold@durationpress.com by Dec 17 (Friday) for Saturday posting. Thanks much. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 16:40:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Dowker Subject: The Alterran Poetry Assemblage #4 (further) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Announcing: the addition of work by Karen Kelley, George Quasha, Allen Fisher, Drew Gardner, Gary Sullivan, Nancy Dunlop, Henry Gould, Patrick F. Durgin, and Allen Bramhall to issue #4 of (((((((((THE ALTERRAN POETRY ASSEMBLAGE))))))))) ...also including Lissa Wolsak, Alan Halsey, Stephen Ellis, David Dowker, Meredith Quartermain, Carrie Etter, Spencer Selby, Sheila Murphy, and Bill Luoma. new location --> http://members.home.net/alterra/ alterra@home.com alterra@ican.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 21:04:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: class way of not talking about race, etc... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The reason I brought up the "screening" that class is sometimes used for is that, for me, the "avant-garde" is divided up far more by race than by class. For me, this is really obvious in a University situation (yes, there are working class people there -- the question of "cultural class" notwithstanding), where the "spoken word" is largely a black domain and writers who cross over from more NY school derivative poetries are mostly white. When I was down in NYC, interestingly, there was not the same kind of perception -- Nuyorican, for example, is thrilling in its ethnic mix. The one place where this is absent -- particularly interesting -- is among people doing work in electronic music or "new music". Perhaps the explicitness of "trade" (there's a specific body of knowledge needed to claim membership that can be -- somewhat -- objectively evaluated) that isn't present in poetry (where there's a greater empahsis on 'talent', and less background needed) keeps racial questions in the background. I say this, by the way, as someone who knows little about the politics of new music -- just as a audience member looking at the racial composition of the rooms. -- Simon http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~sdedeo sdedeo@fas.harvard.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 23:56:00 -0500 Reply-To: jsmcd@poetrynow.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Smith McDonough Organization: poetrynow Subject: call for submissions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS poetrynow volume 2 number 2 publication date: the solstice at the end of a millennium Judy Smith McDonough, editor, poetrynow http://www.poetrynow.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:53:19 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Nielsen, Aldon" Subject: Re: Class & Poet[ry/ics] In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:50 AM 12/1/99 -0600, you wrote: >At 8:08 PM -0500 11/30/99, Simon DeDeo wrote: > >...When was the last time Byron was attacked for >>being from the lesire/upper/aristocratic class? Much, much longer ago than >>he was for being white. The grammar of Simon's first post would not have suggested the intention clarified in his more recent -- BUT -- still seems a peculiar shade of red herring to me -- I am not now nor have a ever been a "Byronist," but I have not seen any citations ever of critial work "attacking" Byron for being white, nor have I seen any citations of any critical work looking at his "whiteness." Does anybody out there know of such an article, which I'd like to see -- There ARE books and articles that offer analyses of race in Romanticism, which may inclue Byron -- Not only do the North American "whiteness studies" bunch not concern themselves with Byron, they tend not to address poetry at all Race has often been blinded by class -- and there have been attempts to trump race with class (such as William J. Wilson's works) -- The class argument in discussions of Affirmative Action takes a truly odd turn -- People criticize Affirmative Action for getting upper-middle-class people into certain universities as if (1) they really DID want to see large numbers of poorer people at Yale and (2) as if Affirmative Action had been designed as an economic class remedy, which it surely was not -- While I would in fact like to see economically disadvantaged candidates given a better shot at the best education, I've never understood the logic that claims it is immoral to consider race as an affirmative action remedy in college admissions (as opposed to, say, the action that got George W. through the Ivy League) while it would be moral to admit a candidate from a lower-income family over a candidate from an upper-inome family whose record was otherwise comparable -- Class certainly plays a major role in the current establishment of creative writing in the academy, as any of the people teaching in Cal State's programs might tell you after a visit to a U.C. program -- a role just as prominent as race - When minority applicants are turned down for home loans that white applicants with otherwise comparable records receive, it's an action based in race that has the effect of rigidifying class structures at the same time -- I think what many of us would like to see is a critique that is simultaneously attuned to race and class in its readings and analyses (and writings!), rather than a critique that pretends to be able to extricate one from the other -- any volunteers? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 00:08:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: The Traceroute Project - Please Participate (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII \ (The following description is at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk in the trAceroute conference. I'm looking for participants - if you're interested, please write into it. Thank you greatly - Alan) Topic: About the Traceroute Project (1 of 3), Read 16 times Conf: NEW! trAceroute From: Alan Sondheim (sondheim@panix.com) Date: 03 December 1999 08:24 AM Hi - I'm asking everyone to participate in the TRACEROUTE PROJECT, which really occurs on December 31 and January 1. Traceroute is a utility which comes with the unix or linux operating system - there is a version in Win95 and Win98 called tracert. It is a way to track the path from your computer to a site anywhere in the world. For example, if you are in Australia, at Murdoch University, you could type tracert columbia.edu at the DOS prompt in Windows 95 0r 98, and you would have a chart of the route between Murdoch and Columbia University in New York, USA. Traceroute or tracert works by looking at the route between your computer and your target address, and sending signals to every machine between the two - three signals (usually) per machine. The machines then send return signals, and traceroute gives you the round-trip time for each of the three. Traceroute is used by system administrators and people like me to look at the "health" of the Internet as a whole - it tells you which machines aren't responding, for example (those which send back asterix such as *). It's incredibly useful. Between December 31 and January 1, almost all the Y2k problems on the Net will be visible thorugh traceroute. The idea of this project is to gather a huge sheaf of data, illustrating the world-wide state of the Internet as the millennium starts. (The millennium takes a day to start world-wide, because of the time zones.) What I would like from participants is a group of traceroutes sent to Trace (we'll let you know where), accompanied by your name. There is some technical information below (taken from a few posts I made) that indicates how to do this. It would also be great if you could include a description of Y2k problems in your location - for example, subways out, flickering lights, and so forth - and give your location as well. All of this will be included in the final report. None of this will be graphic or great looking - but it will be an amazing compendium of the state of the earth at a critical time for humanity... Please participate! Please post questions here! Alan - and thank you! (Below is the information from the other posts - you can ignore this if it is too technical.) I would like to start, almost immediately, thinking about doing TRACEROUTE (traceroute) commands in linux or unix across the millennial hinge (i.e. during the day the time shifts over), reporting back on speed etc. between nodes etc. as the millennium arrives and Y2k does or does not come to fruition. Please let me know if you are interested in participating - you would have to have access to some traceroute program, and the ability to convert the results to a text file; we'll try and establish a site for placing these... Here is some additional information from correspondence with Steen - Alan - > Tracking servers - for example the command {k:1}traceroute > trace.ntu.ac.uk gives of course the traceroute for trace from > panix.com for me. I would track 'representative sites' - > cleo.murdoch.edu.au for example is at the antipodes from NYC - in > Perth. Also would trace random sites in Canada, across the US > naturally, Japan. There are people in Finland who would do the same. > So the origin of the tracking, for the most part, would be in relation > to the participants - and the goal would be what would appear, to > them, to be representative sites world-wide. > I've used about 5-6 > graphic traceroutes, and find in general they're more trouble than > they're worth. One, PingPlotter, is pretty good, and you can save the > traceroutes as images as well as text. The advantage of text is that > you've got databases you can manipulate of course. It seems to me > there are two kinds of graphics involved - those that represent geo- > graphic information, mapping, etc. and those that plot times - > PingPlotter is of the latter, which is more useful. > > The idea behind all of this is to consider the telecom internetting of the > world as a membrane, and to examine its condition, situation, on the hinge > of the millennium - how is connectivity functioning in light of - 1. > who is and who is not wired in the first place and - 2. y2k and other > (what are now) geopolitical problems. I'm fascinated by the idea of a 'snapshot' > are now) geopolitical problems. I'm fascinated by the idea of a 'snapshot' > of the planet in this regard. I've always found aesthetic value in trace- > route (and ping -s) since it really represents the bones, underlying > structures of the Net, manifesting themselves... And here is additional information. If you are on Windows 95 or 98, and can access DOS (I'm not sure about G3 or G4 or IMac but there must be utilities available): Some tools for using with the Traceroute Project for Windows (tested for Win98): PING: Usage: ping [-t] [-a] [-n count] [-l size] [-f] [-i TTL] [-v TOS] [-r count] [-s count] [[-j host-list] | [-k host-list]] [-w timeout] destination-list Options: -t Ping the specifed host until stopped. To see statistics and continue - type Control-Break; To stop - type Control-C. -a Resolve addresses to hostnames. -n count Number of echo requests to send. -l size Send buffer size. -f Set Don't Fragment flag in packet. -i TTL Time To Live. -v TOS Type Of Service. -r count Record route for count hops. -s count Timestamp for count hops. -j host-list Loose source route along host-list. -k host-list Strict source route along host-list. -w timeout Timeout in milliseconds to wait for each reply. TRACERT (traceroute): Usage: tracert [-d] [-h maximum_hops] [-j host-list] [-w timeout] target_name Options: -d Do not resolve addresses to hostnames. -h maximum_hops Maximum number of hops to search for target. -j host-list Loose source route along host-list. -w timeout Wait timeout milliseconds for each reply. NETSTAT: Active Connections Proto Local Address Foreign Address State Netstat tells you the Network statistics; both tracert and ping are very configurable. As you may know, you can also do ftp and telnet from the prompt. If you do, say, tracert to panix.com, you would do tracert panix.com > trace.txt for example - which places the output in trace.txt. You may have to go back in and add the command "tracert panix.com" to the top of the file. If you then want to do, say, tracert trace.ntu.ac.uk and put it in trace.txt next, you would do tracert trace.ntu.ac.uk >> trace.txt The double carets >> mean "add to" and not "replace" - otherwise the trace.txt will be replaced. The same goes for ping or other commands. This way, you can build up a file of traceroutes to send on - configured as you see fit. You might also use ping at times. - Alan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 20:29:21 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: geraldine mckenzie Subject: Re: avant garde / mckenzie Comments: To: JLowther@facstaff.oglethorpe.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I tried to keep this brief. First - to John, I wasn't referring to you in my comments and am at a loss as to why you think so. I now have to say I'll admit I'm not good with email, it's too fast, like conversation, and in a certain mood I open my big mouth and get carried away, by the end of it I was working up to full Celtic warrior/bush lawyer mode (an hour later I was recalling all the ellisions and generalizations of my post). Re novelty: the usual sense of the term avant garde encompasses this quality and I thought (could be wrong) it was mentioned in the post on the Lehmann book. Avant garde poetries frequently cite the importance of new forms, new languages, new possibilities, not necessarily from a belief in the essential virtue of the new but out of a sense of the inadequacies of orthodoxy. As for the association with commodities, I appreciate it wasn't made in the fourteenth century but, in Australia at least, all words referring to novelty or newness have become advertising staples to an extent that compromises their usage in any other area. (This doesn't even begin to address the issue of art as commodity, though I'd be interested to see what others have to say.) Re: 'revolutionary' texts - Just to clarify my use of opposition - I'm thinking in terms of modes of thinking and writing rather than beliefs or 'attitudes'. Of course, each feeds the other but, to put it in the crudest terms, I don't see the avant garde functioning as propagandists or prophets (though some have sought such roles). In fact, I dislike any characterisation of the poet which romanticises the occupation or endows it with a questionable authority. '(Reader could be writer, writer reader. Listener could be teacher.)' (DuPlessis) * As for the intrinsic oppositional nature of the avant garde, I offer a quotation from a much more useful text than this posting - "Robert Stearns writes (in a configuration we would share with him): 'The avant garde might be characterised as those creators who do not take their environment & its traditions at face value. They separate & view its elements & realign them according to their own needs.' This description (while devoid as yet of social revolutionary purpose) is general enough to include the great range of strategies & stances in experimental poetry & art." - Rothenberg and Joris in the introduction to Vol. 1, Poems for the Millenium. In this context I mention, without exploring, Paul Fussell's analysis of an adversarial cast of mind which derives from the experiences of the Great War (The Great War and Modern Memory). What is most germane is not the combatants' sense of the Enemy, although this is profound, but the division between the troops and the General Staff/civilian society, and a developing sense of the fraudulence of authority, be it militiary, political or cultural. Re: marketplace - what can I say - I didn't mean it quite literally, but avant garde poetry/writing is for sale, surely, unless you access it on the net. In addition, the poetic economy is a little more complex than the exchange of goods for money, income is more commonly generated by funding and/or teaching positions but these, of course, are in some measure dependant on publication. In any case, if you check my original post, I did double back on that clause. Bit it on the bum, as it were. Similiarly, with the reference to technique. Still, I'll admit this is one of the sections of my post which I felt had weaknesses, too many leaps, setting up of possibly artificial distinctions (and what distinctions aren't? Well, quite.), and yet raising issues that I'm interested in and would like to read other posts on. I don't mind admitting that I know very little and am trying to figure it all out. I'm not avant garde either but I am experimenting inasmuch as I try to see what I can do with language, and I'm not too keen on repeating myself (though it happens, it happens). Improvisation? Of course. Re: technique. Questions. Collage has been described as a major innovation in poetic technique. Clearly, whilst it is a technique, it's also intimately connected with certain ideas about reality and poetics. However, the technique can be used by those who, for a variety of reasons, do not partake of the theoretic grounding from which collage derives. The appearance of being avant garde is there, but what else?- I'm thinking of a well-known scandal in the Australian literary scene (in the fifties, I think). Two established poets wrote a group of poems, ostensibly by an unknown experimental poet 'Ern Malley'. Their intention was to expose what they saw as the pretensions of such poetry. Re: official verse culture - a matter of circumstance - most of the magazines here are dominated by it. As are readings, festivals, competitions etc. but I'm perhaps most keenly aware of it at work - I teach high school and, whilst university courses are more adventurous, the school curriculum is extremely limited. From memory, the most experimental writing a high school student is likely to encounter (and only if studying at the most advanced level) is A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man and T.S. Eliot. No further comment. Except to say, I understand official verse culture to be a strand in official culture and, though one may evade some of its manifestations, it's impossible to evade them all. In conclusion, a beginning - please dispute some or all of the above - it just scratches the surface - *(Digression - there's an account of Henry James meeting Ada Leverson and, after some discussion of his work prompted by her questions, he said - "Can it be - it must be - that you are that embodiment of the incorporeal, that elusive yet ineluctable being to whom through the generations novelists have so unfailingly made invocation; in short, the Gentle Reader?") Regards, Geraldine McKenzie >From: "Lowther, John" >To: buffalist , skarrid@hotmail.com >Subject: RE: avant garde / mckenzie >Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:15:42 -0500 > > > geraldine mckenzie wrote; > > > "It is misleading to refer to > the avant garde solely in terms > of novelty. This establishes > an association with art > as commodity which is generally > repudiated by those artists > who might be described > as avant garde. Novelty is > a creature of time and unreliable, > a bye product of experiment > rather than an end." > >it is misleading --- did i do it ? i recall writing about someone at the >symposium in new orleans who'd thrown out the tern novelty in his screed >about the term experimental --- i dont recall the term avant garde coming >into it --- but i wd like to mention that novelty need not relate to >commodity and as its origin is in the 14th century it seems reasonably >disconnected to commodity culture circa now > > "What is more significant > is the 'revolutionary' or > oppositional nature of a text." > >i see what yr saying here but i'm not sure that belief is compelled --- >that >is, i find the discontinuity between the work of the italian futurists and >what had been going on up until then much more interesting, in and of >itself >(it's novelty?) than i do they "revolutionary" attitudes of this group ---- >as such it seems that its our needs that make X Y or Z "significant" > > "Meanwhile, in the marketplace, > the 'novelty' of the avant garde > signals just another item for sale > -or so some would like to think. > If the experimental only referred > to technique, this might be so, but > when it refers to ideas or modes > of thought, then it can constitute > a challenge to what Bernstein > accurately terms'official verse culture' which > (...) is still very much in place." > >how much avant garde is available in the market place ? i've never seen >any, >as such i wonder what this cd mean ultimately --- and the experimental, i'd >say has nothing to do with technique and is a cognitive relation to the >work >not a style or technique that one can pick up put down at any time --- not >that i think many of us are writing experimental poetry --- i doubt we are >--- i maybe have written one poem deserving the name and seen a handful >more >--- it seems to me that instead what most of us are engaged in is >improvization of one sort or another and with varying degrees of >guidelines/guard-rails etc > >i dont dispute that there is an official verse culture but i don't feel >connected to it enough to be able to muster much of an oppositional >attitude >towards it myself --- to be truly oppositional i wd have to pay attention >to >official verse culture and there is so much better to be done with my time > > "To say it [the A-G] does not, > and can not, exist is either > wishful thinking or a form of cultural > despair, a loss of faith > not only in poetry, but also > language, and thus - us." > >must it be so stark ? i wd rather >have the supposedly avant garde character >of presentness and ditch the oppositionality > >so i guess i'm not in the avant garde huh ? > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 06:09:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Carter Subject: catavaulting within her (Words in Process) part 1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable { } catavaulting within her the memory of her feather verse(d)-spilling encre encore dose slittle wheel-like black hearts arts plucked t' lie a Spring Quartet the cuddling loom flower what part of this in denial held both together melting people malting themselves vaulting themselves faulting and halting themselves narrate in its own light musicalization of affliction pen station that mortal portal dancing beer stimulus from deceleration foldly enough: did anyone look? at what? its removal didn't know it was ever there slave changes thrust me somewhere in this space the link cycle momentumized beeper-vice up-puffly the problematical Metropolitan air poured sacred time setting scared time steam(in' slow-down) of consciousness done d' one it glows without slaying his titles to which he chains several large multipliers of multipliers rabbitly evolving flood trace predeterministically doubtcastes surface scratching further bleeding plethoras psychological(ly) vent firefiles acknowledge the baddest of the best practise reading her year bleaking book through travel packet reach the point of spilling spelling spelling spilling the trials looking for more interpolative compromising these =E9tudes squeal in a trance again with (the) figure-active spoonlit span (in) t' Mars in the cage of five (5) plus (+) four (4) for our waiting eye/ear steer dear ferret least a more meant t' be inch-tent be twig stabilletshook off in a hole other dialection caught a pen the hay say Daisy May exemplifade throw t' lash out link to power handlelight vandallight the sound wound pleasantries on the event's existence more neutrally resounding than just immediately before immediately to her as she rode (wrote) through the forest but may well good after pen thousands of (p)ages subsequent to the pleasant movie-go-er audience viewer in the pleasant insistence of the instant samely in owl coffers resplendent with wheel-tech and tough ooze the plague (o)h genital reader in the other of others' echo I had to quickly make up on the basis of found text all swords of diagonal lacks a funderstanding refiguration unit well into the steamy blight recent releases class glow oval memory name the naive city space lease again the tiny planet Molecule at Kite Ari Sun-Pull Ghost a better copy re-scent pie-based role spun isolated m' oceaning of Treasure Eye Randy (t' reassure (I ran)) on (t') the hot sea written write fluid if oh y' no-wit outta dare(!) bereft be left way t' stand prep t' th' move set a part bit revolve rotate out dis lodge meant detach unhook the book pages flew (elsewhere (didn't wanna (hidden wanna))) waited collide the naive city space faded plague mirrule swellspring Miss Lure a clockumental event like most others mounting desire got into the black seat sleep of the vanity transport he has given generous slums to artists Lockaway Beac= h Public Peach -- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 12:14:50 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: komninos zervos Subject: Re: Humble seed In-Reply-To: <38474BA1.A75BBA71@eznet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" thoght this was an international list? komninos of oz At 08:48 PM 12/2/99 -0800, you wrote: >So what would it look like, _The Best American Poetry Online_, culled >from 75 experimental hypertext mags, if say three-four-five hundred >experimental poets each pitched in 20 small bucks for their own two >copies a piece and maybe another 20 little dollars to get a coupla >copies into every Bans and Ignoble and Aborters big comfortable public >libraries/stores in the country? Some cunning >with Amazon.com and the publishers and others could also help... > > komninos cyberpoetry site http://student.uq.edu.au/~s271502 komninos zervos lecturer in cyberStudies griffith university gold coast australia +61 7 55948602 k.zervos@mailbox.gu.edu.au ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 12:33:22 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: submitting to wf1000 / on word MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We are greatly heartened by the number of responses to our invitation, but a little surprised by the number who ask about size... & this morning's epost has brought another small flood We said: "The size should be in the proportion 210 (wide) : 297 (high)." Those figures are the gross metric dimensions of A4, but any (sensible) page size in that proportion is acceptable. It is likely that the actual published page size will be less than A4 so make sure that you use a type size which will cope with reduction! The important word here is "proportion" Apologies to those who are not interested in this project... Lawrence Upton for Upton & Cobbing, editors "on word" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 22:43:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: The Work of Authority in IRC Channel #Nikuko MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII \ The Work of Authority in IRC Channel #Nikuko IRC log started Sun Dec 5 02:18 *** Value of LOG set to ON < Nikuko > This is so very sad. < Nikuko > Where are you? < Nikuko > Hello, Jennifer? *** Nikuko is now known as Jennifer - NickServ - This nick is owned by someone else. Please choose another. - NickServ - If this is your nick, type: /msg NickServ IDENTIFY - NickServ - Your nick will be changed in 60 seconds if you do not comply. *** Jennifer is now known as Julu - NickServ - This nick is owned by someone else. Please choose another. - NickServ - If this is your nick, type: /msg NickServ IDENTIFY - NickServ - Your nick will be changed in 60 seconds if you do not comply. *** Julu is now known as JJennifer < JJennifer > I am so sorry, morphing like this. < JJennifer > O! Nikuko, I have missed you. [ E/X ] Signon at 2:20 am for options detected. < JJennifer > Who is that other? < JJennifer > Tell me... *** JJennifer is now known as Nikuko < Nikuko > Oh Oh Oh Come towards me. < Nikuko > Oh I am so very sorry, I am crying enormously here. *** Nikuko is now known as JJennifer < JJennifer > Nikuko, I miss you wildly, these spaces collapse to nothing. *** JJennifer is now known as Nikuko < Nikuko > These spaces are nothing, Jennifer, our love is one forever... *** Nikuko is now known as JJennifer < JJennifer > Melt with me, Nikuko, melt with me. *** JJennifer is now known as Nikuko < Nikuko > I am melting, JJennifer *** Nikuko is now known as NikukoJen < NikukoJen > Ah ah ah ah ah [ E/X ] Signoff at 2:23 am for options detected. *** NikukoJen is now known as JenniferN < JenniferN > Ah ah ah ah ah *** JenniferN is now known as NJieknunk < NJieknunk > Ah ah ah ah ah *** NJieknunk is now known as JNeinknui < JNeinknui > Ah ah ah ah ah *** JNeinknui is now known as All < All > Ah ah ah ah ah! - NickServ - This nick is owned by someone else. Please choose another. - NickServ - If this is your nick, type: /msg NickServ IDENTIFY - NickServ - Your nick will be changed in 60 seconds if you do not comply. < All > Ah ah ah ah ah! *** All is now known as One - NickServ - This nick is owned by someone else. Please choose another. - NickServ - If this is your nick, type: /msg NickServ IDENTIFY - NickServ - Your nick will be changed in 60 seconds if you do not comply. *** Signoff: One (But the time has come when all things shall pass.) IRC Log ended *** Sun Dec 5 02:26 __________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 14:00:13 +0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rebecca Weldon Sithiwong Subject: Class Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I appreciated Jorge's culture/Culture offering. In my mind, I categorize the recent subjects of class discussion the following way: These are the things that are given: (what we are) Mind Sex Race Language These are the things we produce as a society: (how we live) Assets Income Power Prestige These are the creative judgements: (why we live) religion culture Culture It seems to me that, today, a person might less likely be concerned with the what and the why, except as they impinge on the how. And, in this circular reasoning, because the how is the key to current personal lifestyles, factors that inhibit choice (what, why) take on a greater magnitude. The what and why of who we are motivate the development of what we might call "alternatives", the fleshing out, so to speak, of the how. I throw out a Thai example: Vilak, male, Muang poet (what). Born into a farming family (how)in northern Thailand. Goes to school to discover that he is must learn to speak and read a second language, Central (Modern) Thai, in order to obtain an education (why). From a young age he writes in his mother tongue, a language not taught in school. He receives a scholarship to pursue his formal studies in Thai(how). He translates his poetry into Central Thai. He becomes a well-known Thai poet; most people don't realize they are reading translation. He is nominated for the National Book award. His reads his work in the original at northern Thai cultural or religious events. (Vilak's language, Kham Muang (the language of the T'ai Yuan), is currently spoken by six million people in northern Thailand. It is related to, but not a dialect of modern Thai, having it's own distinctive orthography and literature. In the interests of nation building, the Ministry of Education eliminated the language from the schools (following the incorporation of the northern Kingdom of Chiang Mai into the Kingdom of Siam). For several generations it has been taught in the temples only for the purpose of reading religious texts. However, since most men spend time in that context, some have retained a basic literacy in Kham Muang.) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 12:53:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: let's hear it for J H PRYNNE! / Hollo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This message came to the administrative account. Apologies for the delay. Chris ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Date: Thu, Dec 2, 1999 12:06 PM +0000 From: JDHollo@aol.com Subject: let's hear it for J H PRYNNE! Check out It=EDs The New Yorker=EDs first-ever =ECbest books of the year=EE contest! = In the Poetry category, there is a short list of five, one of which, quite = surprisingly, is J.H. (Jeremy) PRYNNE, his COLLECTED. If you know his work, do vote for him. If you don=EDt know his work, or don=EDt know it all that well, vote for him anyway: It=EDll be a strike = for INTELLIGENCE, INTEGRITY, WIT, and =ECMAKING STRANGE.=EE Our kind of guy. = (!) (For the Nonfiction category, I recommend Edward Said=EDs autobiography. Fiction -- you=EDre on your own.) Cheers, Anselm Hollo ---------- End Forwarded Message ---------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 12:55:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Art in Germany Crosses Borders / Weiss MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message came to the administrative account. Apologies for the delay. Chris ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Date: Fri, Dec 3, 1999 9:25 PM +0000 From: Irving Weiss Subject: From NY Times, Sunday Art in Germany Crosses Borders NYTimes , Thursday, December 2, 1999 by Alan Riding The 20th Century: A Century of Art in Germany Three Berlin Galleries through January 9 "One of the most intriguing works is Peter Bisseger's reconstruction of Kurt Schwitter's Merzbau that visitors can enter. Different expressions of memory are found in Arnold Dreyblatt's "From the Archives," where 10,000 names and identities taken from the 1933 volume "Whos Who in Central and Eastern Europe" are continuously projected onto a transparent circular screen." I excerpt part of paragraph because of the Schwitters but also because I am especially interested in calling attention to the great work of the American composer and interactive multimedia artist Arnold Dreyblatt--just in case any of you are in Berlin before closing date. http://www.dreyblatt.de/ ---------- End Forwarded Message ---------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:44:25 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: machismo and the avant-garde? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" michael davidson has a few essays on masculinity and coterie, mostly of the SF renaissance (spicer, duncan et al) and i imagine he deals with it fairly extensively in his forthcoming Guys Like Us, about Cold War masculinities. also, susan suleiman has a book on gender, misogyny and avant garde dealing w/ the french scene (man ray, surrealists, etc). rachel blau du plessis gave a talk on olson, wieners and gender at the poets of the 50s conference in Maine 1996. there is much to be written about here, but everytime folks bring it up on poetix, there's a kind of hysterical backlash as if icons were being personally attacked. for example, if i direct you to Tom Clarke's biography of Olson, called something like Allegory of a Poet's Life, i'm sure someone will leap in and denounce it. i have no feeling pro or con about tom clarke, but i learned a lot from reading the book (i inherited the project of reading it for a press that was considering reprinting it in paperback from someone who'd turned the project down cuz didn't want to get involved in the "controversy." this was before i knew there was a controversy.) anyway, avantgarde machismo is a much observed but little written about fact of life. it's like hettie jones sez of beat culture. "so we were somewhat oppressed and it wasn't a perfectly utopian counterculture; it was better than death in the suburbs." At 6:00 PM -0500 12/2/99, Daniel Kane wrote: >Anyone know of work that's been done on machismo as implicit in >avant-garde values? Or, on a more localized level, Olson and machismo >(i.e., "go by it, boys, rather than by,the metronome," and "there it is, >brothers, sitting there, for USE," "from the moment he ventures into >FIELD COMPOSITION--puts himself into the open" etc.). > >A list of any articles / books that deal with this in one way or >another would be much appreciated. > >If you like, backchannel to dkane@panix.com. > >Thanks. >--daniel ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 09:55:39 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pete Subject: Re: Seattle businesses boycott In-Reply-To: <199912060505.VAA05745@mail.europa.com> from Automatic digest processor at "Dec 6, 99 00:05:45 am" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There's really only one that you really need to deal with: MicroSoft. Before MicroSoft, Seattle was in a bad way. The expression went, "Will the last person to leave Seattle please turn out the lights." That's when Boeing was having troubles and Seattle was becoming a ghost town. Now because of Bill Gates, Seattle has returned to its former glory, in fact is stronger than ever. Also, Mr. Gates is very pro-WTO. He has some kind of role in the organization (sit on a board of some kind, I suspect others know more than me about this). Certainly it was Mr. Gates who made sure it was Seattle where the conference was held, and the civil servants in Seattle ask Mr. Gates how high and how often if he even looks like he wants somebody to jump. So as I type this using Windows and as I read the list using Internet Explorer, I have to ask, just how do you really propose boycotting Seattle businesses? Every other business besides MicroSoft in Seattle is far less culpable, so I would have to agree that boycotting all of them but using Windows and other such products out of necessity is basically harming the innocent and letting the culprit go free. Therefore I think some other response is more appropriate. How about a letter writing campaign to Bill Gates? How about guerilla poetry? What do the Seattlans think? Pete ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:13:22 -0800 Reply-To: filch.net@chronotope.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: f i l c h Subject: Borges, of interest Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit http://www.salonmagazine.com/books/feature/1999/12/06/borges/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 17:07:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Al Filreis Subject: Edwin Torres via webcast Comments: To: Poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Edwin Torres program announced below will be WEBCAST live, this Saturday, December 11, at 4:30 PM eastern time. If you want to participate via webcast, please write to << wh@english.upenn.edu >>. You will receive information about how to make the connection. --Al Filreis Faculty Director, the Kelly Writers House ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It is obvious that Edwin Torres is the bastard love child of Mayakovsky and Parra, midwifed by Apollinaire." -- Christian Haye in The Poetry Project Newsletter. the Nuyorican poet and performance worker E D W I N T O R R E S ++++++++++++++++++++++++ reading/performance and informal discussion led by Al Filreis Saturday, December 11 4:30 PM Kelly Writers House 3805 Locust Walk on the campus of the University of Pennsylvania [The program is co-sponsored by the Kelly Writers House, the "PennAdvance Program" of the School of Arts & Sciences, & the Highwire Gallery.] You can hear audio files of Edwin Torres performing his "All Colors Not White" and "A Wutherance of E" by clicking here: www.english.upenn.edu/~afilreis/88v/torres.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- About the brilliant Nuyorican poet and performance worker EDWIN TORRES a writer for New York Magazine wrote, "It's hard to wrestle meaning from the shreds of language he tosses out. And on paper, Torres seems to make as much sense as a Port Authority schizophrenic." "It is obvious that Edwin Torres is the bastard love child of Mayakovsky and Parra, midwifed by Apollinaire," writes Christian Haye in The Poetry Project Newsletter. Torres reads at the Poetry Project, Dixon Place, P.S. 122 and the Performing Garage. Recently, he represented New York City in the National Poetry Slam in Boston. He won the Nuyorican Poets Cafe's First Annual Prize for Fresh Poetry. New York Press pronounced him Best Performing Poet this year saying: "His bent for soul bending language play is without equal." Ethan Petitt of Nose Magazine says "instead of sounding things', he 'things' sounds, so that words and meanings go ka-plunk like soft percussion." Some of his widely diverse influences include Wallace Stevens, Mayakovsky, Duchamp, Dada, Fluxus, and even Butoh. Torres' books include _I Hear Things People Haven't Really Said_ and _Lung Poetry_, and new from Subpress, _Fractured Humorous_. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 12:59:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: M. Palmer and H.Q. Tu Reading at SPT 12/10 / saidenberg MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had to reformat this message. Chris -- Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:52:10 -0800 From: jocelyn saidenberg Subject: M. Palmer and H.Q. Tu Reading at SPT 12/10 Small Press Traffic Reading Friday, December 10, 7:30 p.m. Michael Palmer Hung Q. Tu Michael Palmer's name is known all over the world, a metonym for the allusive, lyric, and speculative poetry that he has been writing since the mid-sixties. Michael Palmer is the author of several books of poetry and translations including The Lion Bridge (Selected Poems 1972-1995), (New Directions, 1998), The Danish Notebook, (Avec Books, 1999), and forthcoming in Spring 2000 The Promises of Glass from New Directions. Palmer is the sage of the unknown, the unverifiable, the poet who promises nothing, withholds less. He asks us not what comes between poetry and its audience, but what poetry reaches toward. In his extension of modernism, and the weary beauties of his life work, what goes toward has yet to spring back, the feelers are out there still, unrelenting tentacles of the proprioceptive. Hung Q. Tu was born in Vietnam and raised in San Diego. His first book, A Great Ravine, was published by Parenthesis Writing Series and a second, Verisimilitude, is forthcoming through Atelos Press. He received a BA in Literature from UC San Diego, and an MFA in Creative Writing from San Francisco State University. Recent work can be found in such journals as Poetics Journal and Crayon. He is a co-editor of Krupskaya. His writing is dizzy, almost crazy, at the juncture of a number of language practices and social and cultural signposts. In the work of Hung Q. Tu, a fever state of waking and noticing makes mincemeat out of fugue state, tabloid headlines out of headless tap shoes. Under the control of the beast, the world spins, and Hung Q. Tu hangs on by the fingertips, getting bigger than the beast, the world, the nails steely and invitational. New College Cultural Center 766 Valencia Street, San Francisco $5 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 14:22:55 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: peter neufeld Subject: WTO MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I thought people on the list might find this of interest. Peter Neufeld >Seattle Doctor speaks on police action in Seattle >My name is Richard DeAndrea. I'm a medical doctor. What I saw up >here was martial law. This turned into a police state. Everything you >have seen on television regarding local news broadcasts including >national public radio was a blackout. The police were using concussion >grenades. They were shooting tear gas canisters directly at protesters' >faces. They were using so-called rubber bullets. These are actually >hard plastic. Some of the damage I saw: these plastic bullets took off >part of one person's jaw, smashed teeth in other people's mouths. I saw >the police arrest people who had their hands up in the air screaming >we are peacefully protesting. The amount of looting that took place was >so minimal I don't even know where they got the footage from. I am >saying this beyond a shadow of a doubt. This is a definite sign that >America is heading towards a police state unless people start standing >up for their rights as individuals. I am actually shocked and ashamed. I >am ashamed of the police force, I am ashamed of the mayor I am >ashamed of Bill Clinton. I am ashamed of the whole thing. > >Jared: These rubber bullets - what are they? > >Dr. DeAndrea: They are made of polyester type material. They are >like a hard plastic toy. The idea is to hit your body, do damage, not >actually penetrate. But I did see penetration wounds, I did see people >bleeding. I did see teeth loss, I did see broken bones. There were >children present, there were families present, they were firing upon >families, mothers, grandmothers. They were just firing at them. They >came out in full police force. They brought out swat teams, they had >the national guard up here, there was CIA surrounding the delegates' >buildings. It was very obvious that there was an institutional control >that had no regard of human rights whatever. > >In addition we have video footage of protesters being taken away as >well as human rights being violated. Prisoners were taken and they >were tortured. There is a case, I believe his name is Holm, Keith Holm. >He was tortured because he would not give his name. They >handcuffed, laid him on the floor, they smashed his face against the >concrete, they grabbed his hair, they ripped out a lock of hair. and >then placed pencils between his fingers and pressed on them until he >would give his name. He refused. They were also banging his head >against metal objects. He was actually the first protester released >because the Internal Affairs came in to do an investigation and they >wanted him gone because he would be able to give testimony. > >We're treating people in a studio loft downtown. I just treated an ear >wound. People have been treated for concussion injuries. There have >been people who have been treated for plastic bullet wounds. Lots of >tear gas injuries, lots of damage to cornea, lots of damage to the eyes >and skins. They were using a pepper spray, a tear gas and they were >also using some sort of nerve gas. We had reports of many >demonstrators winding up with seizures the next day. It causes muscles >to clamp up, muscle contraction, seizures. > >They have done several illegal things regarding these people in jail. >They have been telling them that they would not be let out, not have >their bail set if they didn't give their names. Its their legal right not to >give their name. They don't have to speak at all. Attorneys came up >and said we are representing these people. The police called the >attorneys liars. At this point they have still refused to let any of them >see their clients. There are close to 600 people who were arrested and >they have been holding them for two days on charges that are mostly >misdemeanors, such as refusal to disperse. A lot of people in there >have not gotten medical attention either. I have gotten calls from young >ladies in there who have had all sorts of emotional problems as well as >physical problems. They have called me for medical attention from >inside the jail. There are people still sitting in there who have not even >been processed. > >Today there were fewer attacks by police, but they did arrest more >people. And there was no violence today by the marchers and all >through the day yesterday it was the same. What you are seeing on >television about looting and anarchistic protesters - there's >a straight-out blackout and they are basically pushing that [line]. There >is not much damage to property here. There are not many windows that >have been damaged or stores that have been looted. Those are >extremely rare cases. > >I used to believe newspapers were telling the truth. But now I am no >longer behind that. This is the beginning of a police state. You can >quote me on that. > >http://www.brasscheck.com/seattle > > > > > > >+=====================================================+ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:27:30 -0800 Reply-To: jim@vispo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Bill Marsh at Defib: the canned version MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The canned version of the Nov 21/99 Defib show featuring Bill Marsh is now available at http://webartery.com/defib/canned/3bill Defib is webartery.com's live online web artist interview surf show. The transcript from the live chat sessions of interviews with Web artists is produced into hypertranscipt versions of the sessions. Bill Marsh is a writer who combines critical acumen with an engaging poetical approach to Web art. He's just launched sunbrella.net, a Web broadcasting/publishing venture. To be a publisher now can also involve broadcasting various media. Broadlishers and pubcasters. Bill is the publisher of Paper Brain Press. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:31:40 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alaric Sumner Subject: Nekyia, UEA Norwich and Rotterdam Comments: To: british-poets@mailbase.ac.uk Comments: cc: liveart@mailbase.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" NEKYIA (for speaker, singer, electronic sounds and video) a collaboration between sound/video artist Joseph Hyde and writer Alaric Sumner Live Samples Festival, Rotterdam - Saturday 11th December Electroacoustic Music Department, University of East Anglia, Norwich - Monday 13th December Previous performances in September: Champlibre, Montreal and Shawford Mill, Somerset Reviewed: Le Devoir, Montreal. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:43:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Publishers Weekly, December 6, 1999 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reviews of Carl Phillips, Edwin Torres, Jorie Graham, Marilyn Hacker, Les Murray, Patricia Goedicke, Eric Pankey, Reginald Shepherd, Joel Kuszai (editor of POETICS@), and also this, about my book HOTEL IMPERIUM: "Pop and politics haven't had their hats handed to them in this Popean a manner in ages. Reminiscent of the acute fantasias of Susan Wheeler and Elaine Equi, though temperamentally closer to Connie Deanovich, Loden's poems talk about what people are (or have been) talking about, but with barbs hilariously sharpened. Targets include: most of the recent Republican presidents (mercifully, she exempts Ford), beauty culture, Woody Allen, Alan Greenspan, Dan Rather, and insurance companies. 'For an eye, not an eye./ For a tooth, forget it,' she writes in 'Memo from the Benefits Department.' Poetry consumers will find special interest in language/system queries like 'DCEASE', a surprisingly moving meditation that begins, 'There are two Elvis Presleys in the Social Security Death Master File (DCEASE). The King's social security number is 409-52-2002.' And language enthusiasts will approve of 'Last W&T', a rearrangement, refrigerator-poetry-magnet style, of the words of Richard Nixon's will. The danger that cynicism will overtake the indignation that propels these poems is averted by the joy, bafflement and innocence of her poems that take icons as incidental examples, not front-and-center subjects. Take 'The Little Richard Story': 'On a day like this,/ without the music/ of appearances, creatures/ could land and you/ would not be able to explain/ anything to them, not/ the fearless industry/ of beavers, or why dust bunnies/ prefer the dark, not even/ how Little Richard/ himself came into being.' . . . Loden's first full collection marches smartly down the path of satire." FYI, poetry lovers . . . * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * Rachel Loden http://www.thepomegranate.com/loden/hotel.html email: rloden@concentric.net * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:49:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Kane Subject: Clepsydra MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Anyone know of any good writing on Ashbery's "Clepsydra?" I've read Shoptaw, and am looking for more. If you have a moment, bc to dkane@panix.com Thanks, --daniel ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 13:04:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Nielsen, Aldon" Subject: Los Angeles Reading: Harryette Mullen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Harryette Mullen reads Sunday, 12/12, 8:00 PM at Un-Urban Coffee House 3301 Pico Blvd. at Urban L.A. for info. call (310) 315-0056 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:56:04 -0700 Reply-To: Laura.Wright@Colorado.EDU Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wright Laura E Subject: Re: What class are you? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello -- I'm finally back on the list after misadventures in relocation. These days, I think it's more expensive to go to a hockey game than the symphony -- and what does that say? (> What about culture? Are you talking Culture (would you rather > go to the > philharmonic or the hockey game?) (I'd like to go to both, please) But what I really wanted to mention, re. class, is an Argentinian/Canadian film, The Dark Side of the Heart, whose main character is a poet who wanders the streets, reciting lines of poetry and asking for handouts. Also writes love poems in exchange for steaks at the local grill. "Death" (his frequent companion) is always trying to find him a "real" job. Has anyone else seen this film? Why do we venerate self-published works when their authors are dead, yet only feel like "real" poets when someone else publishes us? What does it mean to "be a poet." (I vote w/Ted Berrigan, a poet is someone who makes poems -- but then, what is a poem? (something a poet makes?)) Laura ------------------ "I would sooner read a timetable or a catalogue than nothing at all." -W. Somerset Maugham Laura E. Wright Norlin Acquisitions (303) 492-8457 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:28:41 -0800 Reply-To: Scot Hacker Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Scot Hacker Subject: Re: funding for the arts Comments: To: afsf@afsf.com, a_c_t@sirius.com, klobucar@unixg.ubc.ca, berkson@sirius.com, books@blacksparrowpress.com, chrisko@sirius.com, harmonyprince@webtv.net, fabarts@silcon.com, brent@spdbooks.org, Wischixin@aol.com, bstrang@sfsu.edu, bruce_ackley@compumentor.org, rtatar@caartscouncil.com, minka@grin.net, chana@mills.edu, CharSSmith@aol.com, kunos@earthlink.net, dietz@theriver.com, xoxcole@cs.com, dworkin@princeton.edu, craig@akpress.org, avbks@metro.net, copy123@jps.net, plonsey@sunra.berkeley.edu, duende@unisono.net.mx, passages@inetarena.com, steved@sfsu.edu, dcmb@metro.net, ddelp@corp.webtv.net, dmelt@ccnet.com, dada@cdm.sfai.edu, sixt@sirius.com, djmess@sunmoon.com, Dougolly@aol.com, drewgard@erols.com, talismaned@aol.com, Callahan@uclink4.berkeley.edu, elaine@citylights.com, leake@uclink4.berkeley.edu, dblelucy@lanminds.com, Ewhip@aol.com, ewillis@mills.edu, heyeli@jps.net, edelloye@best.com, mcnaughton.eugenia@epamail.epa.gov, gmd@dnai.com, gisfdir@sirius.com, hrohmer@cbookpress.org, heather@spdbooks.org, herb@eskimo.com, Uncleish@aol.com, istituto@sfiic.org, vent@sirius.com, jeffconant@hotmail.com, jeff@detritus.com, poehlerjennifer@compuserve.com, jpenbert@capcollege.bc.ca, jen_hofer@uiowa.edu, three7@earthlink.net, gomes@igc.org, jbrook@ix.netcom.com, chimpowl@well.com, jocelyn@sfsu.edu, jkuszai@mail.gcccd.cc.ca.us, joseph@xinet.com, jraskin@ryanassociates.com, yshuayes@hotmail.com, joshs@jbnc.com, julie@kaya.com, intrsect@wenet.net, dbkk@sirius.com, ogilmore@concentric.net, liteplay@dnai.com, laura@spdbooks.org, moriarty@lanminds.com, info@poetshouse.org, linda.norton@ucop.edu, leni@adj.com, lisad@sfai.edu, lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu, catalan@netcom.com, 70550.654@compuserve.com, mbrito@ull.es, perloff@leland.stanford.edu, marty@spdbooks.org, marvin@pgw.com, maxpaul@sfsu.edu, mmblack@theworks.com, djmess@sunmoon.com, mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca, mfranco34@aol.com, mfriedman@haligmanlottner.com, mrareangel@aol.com, mprice@ncgate.newcollege.edu, walterblue@bigbridge.org, BC_Rock@hotmail.com, mbwolfe@worldnet.att.net, mwolf@sfbg.com, mitch.highfill@db.com, Moxley_Evans@compuserve.com, nelia@telis.org, nla_arts@sirius.com, normacole@aol.com, editors@twolines.com, ohill4@earthlink.net, pquill@sfai.edu, 103730.2033@compuserve.com, pvangel@earthlink.net, pbhoward@serendipitybooks.com, peter_gizzi@macmail.ucsc.edu, priley@dircon.co.uk, newlit@sfsu.edu, raghubir@haas.berkeley.edu, rgladman@sfaids.ucsf.edu, rchrd@eng.sun.com, naao@artswire.org, chrisko@sirius.com, tottels@hotmail.com, aerialedge@aol.com, rovasax@aol.com, sdas@hbs.edu, tpapress@dnai.com, center@sptraffic.org, scope@ucsd.edu, sratclif@mills.edu, rovadams@aol.com, steveanker@aol.com, sclay@interport.net, sfarmer@earthlink.net, clarkd@sfu.ca, skleeberk@aol.com, smilla@sirius.com, suzedmin@thegrid.net, tbrady@sdabcc.com, fuson@uclink4.berkeley.edu, toddbaron@earthlink.net, bookpub@netcom.com, th@wessexbooks.com, hsu@tlaloc.sfsu.edu, yedd@aol.com, angelica@cyborganic.net, daboo@sfsu.edu In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is a 1995 story which will not die, which some of us have seen a couple times a month for the past four years. See: http://www.artistresource.org/new11_13.htm Please do NOT forward this to anyone. Send all hoaxes and zombie memes back upstream. - Scot >>>>- >>>> >> > Dear Friends: >>>> >> > On NPR's Morning Edition, Nina Totenberg reported that >>>> >> > if the Supreme Court supports Congress to cut the >>>> >> > budget of the National Endowment of the Arts, it is in -- The BeOS Tip Server: http://www.betips.net/ The BeOS Bible: http://www.birdhouse.org/beos/bible/ The Alt.OS Usability Challenge: http://www.betips.net/challenge/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 13:13:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: news and petitions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The preceding message may serve as a reminder to subscribers that, when forwarding petitions or news, it may be wise to: 1. Check for a date - many 'news' items and especially many petitions continue to circulate through the web for years at a time; 2. Verify with those concerned - if the item mentions a person or organization, contact the party in question or check to see whether they have a web site that may address the issue as current; 3. Verify using other sources - cross-check the item with its source (e.g., the news organ in which it was originally published) or with other sources. In general, one should be very suspicious of items received by email that cite no date, originary source, or source by which to obtain further information. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:53:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Jameson's Perelman In-Reply-To: <4.0.2.19991203174004.008d4ef0@imap.columbia.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII See also, Burnham, CLint. THE JAMESONIAN UNCONSCIOUS. (Duke, I think?) 1995... On Fri, 3 Dec 1999, Brian Lennon wrote: > A few months back I requested help tracking down cites for counter-commentary > on Jameson's discussion of Perelman. Thanks to all who responded. ---BL > > Jameson, Frederic. Postmodernism, or, The Cultural Logic of Late Capitalism. > Durham: Duke University Press, 1991. > > Armantrout, Rae. "Irony and Postmodern Poetry." Moving Borders: Three Decades > of Innovative Writing by Women. Ed. by Mary Margaret Sloan. Jersey City: > Talisman House, 1998: 674-679. > Golding, Alan. From Outlaw to Classic: Canons in American Poetry. Wisconsin, > 1995. > Hartley, George. "Jameson's Perelman: Reification and the Material Signifier." > Textual Politics and the Language Poets. Bloomington and Indianapolis: Indiana > UP, 1989: 42-52. > Perelman, Bob. "Parataxis and Narrative: The New Sentence in Theory and > Practice." The Marginalization of Poetry: Language Writing and Literary > History. Princeton: Princeton UP, 1996: 59-78. > von Hallberg, Robert. "Poetry, Politics, and Intellectuals." The Cambridge > History of American Literature, Volume 8: Poetry and Criticism. Ed. by Sacvan > Bercovitch. Cambridge: Cambridge UP, 1996. 9-260. > > see also > Silliman, Ron. The New Sentence. New York: Roof, 1985. > > Useful critiques and periodizations of Jameson's postmodernism: > Best, Steven. "Jameson, Totality, and the Poststructuralist Critique." > Postmodernism/Jameson/Critique. Washington, D.C.: Maisonneuve Press, 1989. > 333-368 > Featherstone, Mike. "Postmodernism, Cultural Change, and Social Practice." > Postmodernism/Jameson/Critique. Washington, D.C.: Maisonneuve Press, 1989. > 117-138. > Helming, Steven. "Jameson's Postmodernism: Version 2.0." Postmodern Culture > 9.2 > http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/postmodern_culture/v009/9.2.r_helmling.html > -----. "Marxist Pleasure: Jameson and Eagleton." Postmodern Culture 6.1. > http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/postmodern_culture/v006/6.1consenstein.html > Kellner, Douglas. "Introduction: Jameson, Marxism, and Postmodernism." > Postmodernism/Jameson/Critique. Washington, D.C.: Maisonneuve Press, 1989. > 2-37. > Shumway, David R. "Jameson / Hermeneutics / Postmodernism." > Postmodernism/Jameson/Critique. Washington, D.C.: Maisonneuve Press, 1989. > 172-202. > > > bml18@columbia.edu > http://www.columbia.edu/~bml18 > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:13:47 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: pete spence Subject: Re: What class are you? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > > > > Who supports and pays for poetry? Good question that I hope will provoke > > lively discussion... > > > > Jonathan Mayhew > > jmayhew@ukans.edu > > > > _____________ > > i've seen a lot of poets who expect others to buy their new book but shy away from reading others,,who buys but the overinterested!!! pete ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:21:24 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: pete spence Subject: Re: Class and Money Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > >Suppose Maria Zavialov was not working class.So what. You don't have to be >working class to talk about the working class?????? > > > > > > Does Pete have a special knowledge that Maria belongs to the idle > > >reach? if you can only respond to those you know on this listserve seems then it serves no purpose//pete > > >Or is it implicit in his comment that labor is only labor ("authentic") >if > > >it > > >is working class? Is this an example of the "sentimental working-class > > >poetics?" > > > > > > > > >Murat Nemet-Nejat > > > > maybe maria could have worded it better ,still think i probably seen >closer > > views of working class than a lot, my father a socialist was under the > > threat of the "crimes act' here for years and i remember him being > > interviewed on t.v. knowing he would probably be arrested when he left >the > > studio could go on but!!! sentiment/sediment/saidund meant//pete spence > > yeah so we were working class and my father had government ministers to dinner a lot of things happened back then and i'm happy that i went through it i know what it is about at least from being on its doorstep for my growing years 'till my father died when i was about 24 since then i've carried the lessons carefully//pete spence ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:47:17 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: lisa robertson In-Reply-To: <199912031752.MAA08049@dept.english.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" oh louis this is so touchingly urgent and beseeching that, though i don't know lisa robertson's address and won't bother to look it up since you can do so yourself, i will be troubled and haunted by your plaintive tone and send good vibes out there that you and lisa robertson will, no, MUST, connect on the psychic if not the cyber plane. At 12:52 PM -0500 12/3/99, Louis Cabri wrote: >Does anyone have an updated email address for Lisa Robertson? > >Can someone help me with this? > >Is there one of you out there who would go to the trouble of looking up >Lisa Robertson's email address for me, one that is current? > >Can I possibly ask someone to look up an email address for me? > >Could it be you that I am searching for, one of you who holds the address >to Lisa Robertson's email home? > >Is it now, here, in this place, that I will find the email address of one >of you, who is, nonetheless, not a subscriber? > >Might it be soon that someone will preoccupy their own thoughts with this >request? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:48:29 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Humble seed In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 1:30 PM -0500 12/3/99, R. Drake wrote: >why would one want to make a Book out of Online work? would that >"validate" it somehow? or make it a more marketable Commodity? to see how/.if it can be done. miekal and i have discussed this for some of our work and it's v. challenging. > >and why would one want to arbitrate for others what is "The Best" >(and, by exclusion, The Rest, all the Other...)? or why would one >give another the power to arbiter that work for them? > >[the tone of my speaking voice, asking these questions, is not intended >to be as "hostile" as the written version might seem... since i suspect >steve tills suggestion is aimed to promote online works, and i share >that as a goal...] > > >luigi >burning press >http://www.burningpress.org/va/vaintro.html > > >>So what would it look like, _The Best American Poetry Online_, culled >>from 75 experimental hypertext mags, if say three-four-five hundred >>experimental poets each pitched in 20 small bucks for their own two >>copies a piece and maybe another 20 little dollars to get a coupla >>copies into every Bans and Ignoble and Aborters big comfortable public >>libraries/stores in the country? Some cunning >>with Amazon.com and the publishers and others could also help... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:51:12 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: WTO In-Reply-To: <19991203173206.356.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" apropos this debacle, did anyone see in the paper that the supreme court is going to hear a case challenging the consitutional necessity of the Miranda Laws????what next???this seems as mindbogglingly cynical as their decision, about 7-10 years ago, to no longer hear capital punishment appeals because they were "too costly." At 12:32 PM -0500 12/3/99, Patrick Herron wrote: >David Bromige wrote - > >>Cities will have to live with the fact that the USA allows peaceful >assembly of dissidents. > >Unfortunately, David, to be quite frank, Amerika DOES NOT allow peaceful >assembly that much any more. The legal protections for peaceful protesters >have been disappearing for a long time. > >Amerika is a police state. Your only protection in Amerika is money, >connections. > >Land of the free, home of the brave >is really >land of the fee, home of the knave. > >And then, lest we forget, there's always agent provocateur activities within >many political movements in the US, people paid to make the peaceful look >violent. > >This was a wonderful note, David. I am very glad you shared it with >everyone. What you are saying in your note is indeed what is going on. I >have a good friend who is at Capitol Hill in the middle of it and I am >worried about him. > >Under a state of emergency, the city of Seattle made it illegal to use a >gaskmask, and the penalty is 180 days in jail and/or a large fine. > >Patrick > > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:39:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Re: CLASS Comments: To: degentesh@earthlink.net In-Reply-To: <38484138.1B838903@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 2:16 PM -0800 12/3/99, Katie Degentesh wrote: > >(class/race/gender/blah blah blah) Dear Katie Blah Blah Blah, This is rather dismissive, don't you think? Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 08:02:18 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Readers Organization: Re*Map Magazine Subject: space is the place MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thanks to all for "first american poem" response.I think the list works best for me when there is this dialogue. and thinking of Robert Duncan and his "poetics of co-response" he talked of --this--is so important to me. so: then: reading "Our Town" , thinking of Williams and the particular--and Oppen (Beautiful Particulars, also) --what do you think of a poetics of the local (olson?) that has the inter-net as place? per this conversation regarding an anthology of poetics from this space. What happens to place when place is all over? Todd Baron. ReMap ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 00:00:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Al Filreis Subject: recording available Comments: To: Poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The recording of the symposium held earlier tonight* at the Kelly Writers House in Philadelphia - featuring Ron Silliman, Jena Osman, Bob Perelman, and Brian Kim Stefans, and interactions with, among others, Tom Orange from Washington, Alan Golding from Louisville, and Patrick Durgin from Iowa - is now available. Go here: www.english.upenn.edu/~wh/webcasts/symposium.html and click on "A recording of this event is available." Al Filreis The Class of 1942 Professor of English Faculty Director, the Kelly Writers House University of Pennsylvania * 12/7/99 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 21:16:08 -0800 Reply-To: filch.net@chronotope.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: f i l c h Subject: Re: The Work of Authority in IRC Channel #Nikuko Comments: cc: sondheim@panix.com In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Alan, When I was on this list several years ago my attempts at getting the list to be aware of the intricacies and nominalizations of this form were met with curses and eventually the boot was given to my skinny ass. What was considered taboo at that time; the posting of imagined conversations and telephone numbers between two distracted and desperate lovers was met with active hostility. In fact the only member who found my work to be of interest was Christopher Funkhouser. It is refreshing (even scary) and endlessly fascinating to see now that home numbers, addresses, emails, etc. are bandied about in quite a free manner. It seems that the point(s) I was trying to explore have now been nominalized within the context of the group. It's so interesting to me, one of my perennial interests I guess, how the dynamics of listservs are effected by the simple reply-to function of the majordomo. I was cheered, nee amused, when I went to respond to this recent posting of yours and I found myself responding to the group. I received a recent post from a member who expressed a disdain for the dynamics for the list as it seems to this person that the list serves as more of bulletin board for future (unattainable) events than as a real discussion space for poetics. My take on this is that this space is not for discussion but is rather a living(?) laboratory for the exploration of these small and terribly important issues such as the bots talk in your piece. And of course it also serves as an archive of these items. Most of the time I could care less whether there is an interesting discussion going on as, for me it serves as a wonderful place to dump texts which I want to be able to find again, reconstruct again, deconstruct again in 50 years. The point behind all of this and my letter is to express my appreciation for your work. Of all the comments and work I have seen posted here since I rejoined you seem really to be grappling with the issues which this medium creates/compounds/ignores. The growth in your work and the maturity that I see in works like "Re: The Work of Authority in IRC Channel #Nikuko" are breathtaking to behold and I am so pleased that I could rejoin and see this in comparison to the work of yours I saw before (several years ago) which did not seem to be effected at all by the medium. So a hearty "Bravo!" to you sir and a round of ale for all in the house. btw ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- f i l c h > From: Alan Sondheim > Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 22:43:15 -0500 > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: The Work of Authority in IRC Channel #Nikuko > > \ > > > The Work of Authority in IRC Channel #Nikuko > > > IRC log started Sun Dec 5 02:18 > *** Value of LOG set to ON > < Nikuko > This is so very sad. > < Nikuko > Where are you? > < Nikuko > Hello, Jennifer? > *** Nikuko is now known as Jennifer > - NickServ - This nick is owned by someone else. Please choose another. > - NickServ - If this is your nick, type: /msg NickServ IDENTIFY > - NickServ - Your nick will be changed in 60 seconds if you do not comply. > *** Jennifer is now known as Julu > - NickServ - This nick is owned by someone else. Please choose another. > - NickServ - If this is your nick, type: /msg NickServ IDENTIFY > - NickServ - Your nick will be changed in 60 seconds if you do not comply. > *** Julu is now known as JJennifer > < JJennifer > I am so sorry, morphing like this. > < JJennifer > O! Nikuko, I have missed you. > [ E/X ] Signon at 2:20 am for options detected. > < JJennifer > Who is that other? > < JJennifer > Tell me... > *** JJennifer is now known as Nikuko > < Nikuko > Oh Oh Oh Come towards me. > < Nikuko > Oh I am so very sorry, I am crying enormously here. > *** Nikuko is now known as JJennifer > < JJennifer > Nikuko, I miss you wildly, these spaces collapse > to nothing. > *** JJennifer is now known as Nikuko > < Nikuko > These spaces are nothing, Jennifer, our love is one > forever... > *** Nikuko is now known as JJennifer > < JJennifer > Melt with me, Nikuko, melt with me. > *** JJennifer is now known as Nikuko > < Nikuko > I am melting, JJennifer > *** Nikuko is now known as NikukoJen > < NikukoJen > Ah ah ah ah ah > [ E/X ] Signoff at 2:23 am for options detected. > *** NikukoJen is now known as JenniferN > < JenniferN > Ah ah ah ah ah > *** JenniferN is now known as NJieknunk > < NJieknunk > Ah ah ah ah ah > *** NJieknunk is now known as JNeinknui > < JNeinknui > Ah ah ah ah ah > *** JNeinknui is now known as All > < All > Ah ah ah ah ah! > - NickServ - This nick is owned by someone else. Please choose another. > - NickServ - If this is your nick, type: /msg NickServ IDENTIFY > - NickServ - Your nick will be changed in 60 seconds if you do not comply. > < All > Ah ah ah ah ah! > *** All is now known as One > - NickServ - This nick is owned by someone else. Please choose another. > - NickServ - If this is your nick, type: /msg NickServ IDENTIFY > - NickServ - Your nick will be changed in 60 seconds if you do not comply. > *** Signoff: One (But the time has come when all things shall pass.) > IRC Log ended *** Sun Dec 5 02:26 > > > __________________________________________________________________________ > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 20:50:53 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: { brad brace } Subject: IDs in Color Copies (fwd) Comments: To: poetics@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu, photoart@latrobe.edu.au, artnet@mailbase.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Greetings. We've recently seen a tirade of stories about "hidden" identification codes and what many would consider to be surreptitious centralized information flowing from various popular Internet products and packages. These have tended to highlight an important truth--whether or not users really would be concerned about the particular identifiers or data involved, they tend to get the most upset when they feel that an effort was made to perform such functions "behind their backs." While it can be argued how routine, intrusive, or even mundane and innocent a particular case may be, it's certainly true that people feel a lot better when they know what's going on. This issue isn't restricted only to the Internet world. A case in point-- the recurring rumors floating around regarding the presence or absence of identification codes in color copies (or color prints xerographically generated from computer output systems). A recent story involved a customer who was refused permission to make a color copy of his driver's license (to deal with an identification problem with his local telephone company). A Kinko's (copying center) worker reportedly told him that such a copy was "illegal," and could be traced back to the store through a "hidden ID." Regardless of whether or not the Kinko's employee was being overzealous in his interpretation of the rules, what's really going on here regarding a so-called hidden ID code? In fact, rumors about this, often chalked up as an "urban legend," have been circulating for a long time. This is a bit ironic, given that in the copier/printer industry it's been well known for years--no secret--that "invisible" IDs *are* imprinted on virtually all color xerographic output, from (apparently) all of the manufacturers. But for persons outside of "the trade," this hasn't been as widely known (even though the issue goes back to the early 90's, and the topic has appeared in publications such as the Wall Street Journal). However, it does not appear that the privacy-related aspects of this technology have ever been subject to significant public discussion. In an effort to pin down the current state of the art in this area, I had a long and pleasant chat with one of Xerox's anti-counterfeiting experts, who is the technical product manager for several of their color-copying products. The conversation was quite illuminating. Please note that the details apply only to Xerox products, though we can safely assume similar systems from competing manufacturers, although their specific policies may differ. Years ago, when the potential for counterfeiting of valuable documents on color copiers/xerographic printers became apparent in Japan (where such machines first appeared) manufacturers were concerned about negative governmental reaction to such technology. In an effort to stave off legislative efforts to restrict such devices, various ID systems began being implemented at that point. At one stage for at least one U.S. manufacturer, this was as crude as a serial number etched on the underside of the imaging area glass! Modern systems, which are now reportedly implemented universally, use much more sophisticated methods, encoding the ID effectively as "noise" repeatedly throughout the image, making it impossible to circumvent the system through copying or printing over a small portion of the image area, or by cutting off portions of printed documents. Effectively, I'd term this as sort of the printing equivalent of "spread spectrum" in radio technology. To read these IDs, the document in question is scanned and the "noise" decoded via a secret and proprietary algorithm. In the case of Xerox-manufactured equipment, only Xerox has the means to do this, and they require a court order to do so (except for some specific government agencies, for whom they no longer require court authorizations). I'm told that the number of requests Xerox receives for this service is on the order of a couple a week from within the U.S. The ID is encoded in all color copies/prints from the Xerox color copier/printer line. It does not appear in black and white copies. The technology has continued to evolve, and it is possible that it might be implemented within other printing technologies as well (e.g. inkjet). At one time there were efforts made to also include date/time stamps within the encoded data, but these were dropped by Xerox (at least for now) due to inconsistencies such as the printer clocks not being set properly by their operators, rendering their value questionable. It's interesting to note that these machines also include other anti-counterfeiting measures, such as dumping extra cyan toner onto images when the unit believes it has detected an attempt to specifically copy currency. These techniques have all apparently been fairly successful--the Secret Service has reported something on the order of a 30% drop in color copying counterfeiting attempts since word of such measures has been circulating in the industry. The average person might wonder who the blazes would ever accept a xerographic copy of money in any case... but apparently many persons are not very discerning. I'm told that the Secret Service has examples in their files of counterfeit currency successfully passed that was printed on *dot matrix* printers. So counterfeiting is certainly a genuine problem. OK, so now you know--the IDs are there. The next question is, what does this really mean? Obviously the vast majority of uses for color copies are completely innocuous or even directly beneficial to the public good (e.g. whistleblowers attempting to expose a fraud against the public). Is it acceptable for an ID to be embedded in all color copies just to catch those cases? The answer seems to be, it depends. In some cases, even having an ID number doesn't necessarily tell you who currently owns the machine. While some countries (e.g. China) do keep tight reign on the ownership and transfer of such equipment, there is no "registration" requirement for such devices in the U.S. (though the routine servicing realities of large units might well create something of a de-facto registration in many situations). Xerox points out that non-color copies (at least on their machines) have no IDs, and that most copying applications don't need color. It is however also true that as the prices of color copiers and printers continue to fall, it seems only a matter of time before they become the "standard" even for home copying, at which time the presence of IDs could cover a much vaster range of documents and become increasingly significant from a routine privacy standpoint. It's also the case that we need to be watchful for the "spread" of this technology, intended for one purpose, into other areas or broader applications (what I call "technology creep"). We've seen this effect repeatedly with other technologies over the years, from automated toll collection to cell phone location tracking. While there is currently no U.S. legislative requirement that manufacturers of copier technology include IDs on color copies, it is also the case that these manufacturers have the clear impression that if they do not include such IDs, legislation to require them would be immediately forthcoming. It is important to be vigilant to avoid such perceived or real pressures from causing possibly intrusive technology creep in this area. In the copier case, that ID technology being used for color copies *could* be adapted to black and white copies and prints as well. The addition of cheap GPS units to copiers could provide not only valid date/time stamps, but also the physical *locations* of the units, all of which could be invisibly encoded within the printed images. Pressures to extend the surveillance of commercial copyright enforcement take such concepts out of the realm of science-fiction, and into the range of actual future possibilities. What many would consider to be currently acceptable anti-counterfeiting technology could be easily extended into the realm of serious privacy invasions. It would only require, as Dr. Strangelove once said, "The will to do so." Perhaps the most important point is that unless we as a society actively stay aware of these technologies, however laudable their initial applications may often be, we will be unable to participate in the debate that is crucial to determining their future evolution. And it's in the vacuum of technology evolving without meaningful input from society that the most serious abuses, be they related to the Internet or that copy machine over on your desk, are the most likely to occur. --Lauren-- lauren@vortex.com Lauren Weinstein Moderator, PRIVACY Forum - http://www.vortex.com Co-Founder, PFIR: People for Internet Responsibility - http://www.pfir.org Member, ACM Committee on Computers and Public Policy The_12hr-ISBN-JPEG_Project since 1994 <<<< + + + serial ftp://ftp.wco.com/pub/users/bbrace + + + eccentric ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace + + + continuous ftp://ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace + + + hypermodern ftp://ftp.rdrop.com/pub/users/bbrace + + + imagery ftp://ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace > News://alt.binaries.pictures.12hr / a.b.p.fine-art.misc > Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg > Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html { brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 22:58:02 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Katie Degentesh Subject: Re: CLASS Comments: To: Dodie Bellamy In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Dodie Blah, Yes. Is there something wrong with that? Dismissiveness can be a byproduct of judgment, which in turn is often necessary for the writing of poetry. Although you were kind enough to send your post to the list instead of needling me by backchannel, I sense a certain amount of dismissiveness in your own response. Katie Degentesh At 5:39 PM -0800 12/7/99, Dodie Bellamy wrote: >At 2:16 PM -0800 12/3/99, Katie Degentesh wrote: >> >>(class/race/gender/blah blah blah) > >Dear Katie Blah Blah Blah, > >This is rather dismissive, don't you think? > >Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 00:43:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Tills Subject: Humble Seed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Luigi, What I suggest is not so much to as to present an alternative to the _Best American Poetry_ series, or a parody or a spoof or, again, a serious experimental alternative to that text, replete with its conservative-skewed poetries. Is the effort to validate on-line poetries? Sort of, yes. Though why not, if only for kicks, and/or tricks, get more experimental poetry into mainstream bookstores. Why not play the same games and open up the playing fields (to kids, patrons...) in as many new ways as one can imagine? Make it a more marketable commodity? No, I don't think I'm suggesting or . I am suggesting that the world's not as black and white as it used to be. If Barnes and Noble and Borders suddenly noticed 5-10 years from now that they were stocking experimental poetries they'd never have conceived of stocking by themselves, if it suddenly dawned on them that somehow they'd been unwittingly turned into a bit of a library and that in fact it wasn't even doing them any harm, and if some and added a few new twists to the existing macrofabrics of accessibility, what harm? It's kind of like having the power to hack against militarism--do ya do it or do ya resist risking crossing into ? It was like this: I was reading one of the Best American Poetry issues. A handful of experimental poets, 85 percent mainstream. An experimental mag here or there, _APR_, and the various _Reviews_ and other sad mags making up the bulk. I laughed to myself, What if So-n-So or So-n-So from our side of the tracks had been the editors, and what if the bulk of mags/journals represented had been experimental mags? Ah, but that couldn't happen; this is a Barnes and Noble and this is Best American Poetry. Or wait a minute... Call it _Blah Blah Blah On-line_ (never even intending to restrict it to American, for that matter), borrow their infrastructure, and launch what the average B&N patron (or regional buyer) would never even realize reflected an entirely different agenda? To compete with Best American Poetry? No, not really, exactly, maybe... Rather, cooperating... Arbitrating what is the Best? No, not that at all, as it is indeed, I agree, an undesirable. Rather, , like , is largely a ruse, another fun trick or game. Trying to WIN? No, no, no. Please don't misunderstand me. I, too, imbue these answers to your good and gentle questions with more intensity than I like. And I wish none of that on you, old chap, always one I've much respected. I do, though, want to make clear the essentially mischievous nature of my note. It's probably, in fact, more a satirical slant on BAP and what's available in mainstream stores/colleges etcetera than a serious plan of action. Though, smile, I think it would be hilarious to see a chance-operationally-selected experimental journal or two in big, naive stores. Bests, Steve ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 09:25:47 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roger Day Subject: Re: The Traceroute Project - Please Participate (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii A tiny voice of caution here - too many people doing this, might well just add to the general chaos. Don't forget, people will be bunging up the network with all kinds of nonsense at this time as well - you know, multi-media emails sending millenium messages , christmas messages, all sorts of real-time hook-ups using webcams etc etc. There might well be other institutions/bodies who have similar ideas as this. The more I write, the more I think that the net will grind to a standstill - and not because of Y2K problems, either. In engineering terms, this is called stress-testing. At 1999-12-05 05:08:11, Alan Sondheim wrote: # \ # # (The following description is at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk in the trAceroute # conference. I'm looking for participants - if you're interested, please # write into it. Thank you greatly - Alan) # # Topic: # About the Traceroute Project (1 of 3), Read 16 times # Conf: # NEW! trAceroute # From: # Alan Sondheim (sondheim@panix.com) # Date: # 03 December 1999 08:24 AM # # # # Hi - I'm asking everyone to participate in the TRACEROUTE PROJECT, which # really occurs on December 31 and January 1. Traceroute is a utility which # comes with the unix or linux operating system - there is a version in # Win95 and Win98 called tracert. It is a way to track the path from your # computer to a site anywhere in the world. For example, if you are in # Australia, at Murdoch University, you could type # # tracert columbia.edu # # at the DOS prompt in Windows 95 0r 98, and you would have a chart of the # route between Murdoch and Columbia University in New York, USA. # # Traceroute or tracert works by looking at the route between your computer # and your target address, and sending signals to every machine between the # two - three signals (usually) per machine. The machines then send return # signals, and traceroute gives you the round-trip time for each of the # three. # # Traceroute is used by system administrators and people like me to look at # the "health" of the Internet as a whole - it tells you which machines # aren't responding, for example (those which send back asterix such as *). # It's incredibly useful. # # Between December 31 and January 1, almost all the Y2k problems on the Net # will be visible thorugh traceroute. The idea of this project is to gather # a huge sheaf of data, illustrating the world-wide state of the Internet as # the millennium starts. (The millennium takes a day to start world-wide, # because of the time zones.) # # What I would like from participants is a group of traceroutes sent to # Trace (we'll let you know where), accompanied by your name. There is some # technical information below (taken from a few posts I made) that indicates # how to do this. It would also be great if you could include a description # of Y2k problems in your location - for example, subways out, flickering # lights, and so forth - and give your location as well. All of this will be # included in the final report. # # None of this will be graphic or great looking - but it will be an amazing # compendium of the state of the earth at a critical time for humanity... # # Please participate! Please post questions here! # # Alan - and thank you! # # (Below is the information from the other posts - you can ignore this if it # is too technical.) # # I would like to start, almost immediately, thinking about doing TRACEROUTE # (traceroute) commands in linux or unix across the millennial hinge (i.e. # during the day the time shifts over), reporting back on speed etc. between # nodes etc. as the millennium arrives and Y2k does or does not come to # fruition. Please let me know if you are interested in participating - you # would have to have access to some traceroute program, and the ability to # convert the results to a text file; we'll try and establish a site for # placing these... # # Here is some additional information from correspondence with Steen - Alan # - # # > Tracking servers - for example the command {k:1}traceroute # > trace.ntu.ac.uk gives of course the traceroute for trace from # > panix.com for me. I would track 'representative sites' - # > cleo.murdoch.edu.au for example is at the antipodes from NYC - in # > Perth. Also would trace random sites in Canada, across the US # > naturally, Japan. There are people in Finland who would do the same. # > So the origin of the tracking, for the most part, would be in relation # > to the participants - and the goal would be what would appear, to # > them, to be representative sites world-wide. > I've used about 5-6 # > graphic traceroutes, and find in general they're more trouble than # > they're worth. One, PingPlotter, is pretty good, and you can save the # > traceroutes as images as well as text. The advantage of text is that # > you've got databases you can manipulate of course. It seems to me # > there are two kinds of graphics involved - those that represent geo- # > graphic information, mapping, etc. and those that plot times - # > PingPlotter is of the latter, which is more useful. # > # > The idea behind all of this is to consider the telecom internetting of # the # > world as a membrane, and to examine its condition, situation, on the # hinge # > of the millennium - how is connectivity functioning in light of - 1. # > who is and who is not wired in the first place and - 2. y2k and other # > (what are now) geopolitical problems. I'm fascinated by the idea of a # 'snapshot' # > are now) geopolitical problems. I'm fascinated by the idea of a # 'snapshot' # > of the planet in this regard. I've always found aesthetic value in # trace- # > route (and ping -s) since it really represents the bones, underlying # > structures of the Net, manifesting themselves... # # # # And here is additional information. If you are on Windows 95 or 98, and # can access DOS (I'm not sure about G3 or G4 or IMac but there must be # utilities available): # # # Some tools for using with the Traceroute Project for Windows (tested for # Win98): # # # PING: # # Usage: ping [-t] [-a] [-n count] [-l size] [-f] [-i TTL] [-v TOS] # [-r count] [-s count] [[-j host-list] | [-k host-list]] # [-w timeout] destination-list # # Options: # -t Ping the specifed host until stopped. # To see statistics and continue - type Control-Break; # To stop - type Control-C. # -a Resolve addresses to hostnames. # -n count Number of echo requests to send. # -l size Send buffer size. # -f Set Don't Fragment flag in packet. # -i TTL Time To Live. # -v TOS Type Of Service. # -r count Record route for count hops. # -s count Timestamp for count hops. # -j host-list Loose source route along host-list. # -k host-list Strict source route along host-list. # -w timeout Timeout in milliseconds to wait for each reply. # # # TRACERT (traceroute): # # Usage: tracert [-d] [-h maximum_hops] [-j host-list] [-w timeout] # target_name # # Options: # -d Do not resolve addresses to hostnames. # -h maximum_hops Maximum number of hops to search for target. # -j host-list Loose source route along host-list. # -w timeout Wait timeout milliseconds for each reply. # # NETSTAT: # # Active Connections # # Proto Local Address Foreign Address State # # # Netstat tells you the Network statistics; both tracert and ping are very # configurable. As you may know, you can also do ftp and telnet from the # prompt. # # If you do, say, tracert to panix.com, you would do tracert panix.com > # trace.txt for example - which places the output in trace.txt. You may have # to go back in and add the command "tracert panix.com" to the top of the # file. If you then want to do, say, tracert trace.ntu.ac.uk and put it in # trace.txt next, you would do tracert trace.ntu.ac.uk >> trace.txt The # double carets >> mean "add to" and not "replace" - otherwise the trace.txt # will be replaced. The same goes for ping or other commands. # # This way, you can build up a file of traceroutes to send on - configured # as you see fit. You might also use ping at times. # # - Alan # Roger ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 06:32:02 -0500 Reply-To: Ron Silliman Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: webcast recording now available Comments: To: british-poets@mailbase.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Al Filreis To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 11:52 PM Subject: webcast recording now available The recording of the symposium held earlier tonight at the Kelly Writers House in Philadelphia - featuring Ron Silliman, Jena Osman, Bob Perelman, and Brian Kim Stefans, and interactions with, among others, Tom Orange from Washington, Alan Golding from Louisville, and Patrick Durgin from Iowa - is now available. Go here: www.english.upenn.edu/~wh/webcasts/symposium.html and click on "A recording of this event is available." You will need a RealPlayer to view this file. (To download a free RealPlayer, go here: www.real.com.) Al Filreis The Class of 1942 Professor of English Faculty Director, the Kelly Writers House University of Pennsylvania ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 09:52:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Bibby Subject: Re: Class & Poet[ry/ics] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi, aldon & gang: "Nielsen, Aldon" wrote: > Not only do the North American "whiteness studies" bunch not concern > themselves with Byron, they tend not to address poetry at all although i don't consider myself part of the "whiteness studies" bunch, i'm currently working on a study of articulations of whiteness in mid-century poetics, esp. in New Criticism and postwar cosmopolitanism--i've got a ways to go on this, so any suggestions out there would be most appreciated-- in the main, though, Aldon's right about the lack of any attention to poetry/poetics in the current interrogations of whiteness--what gives on this? if anyone on the list knows of work being done in this area, please post-- michael bibby ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 10:18:02 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAXINE CHERNOFF Subject: Re: news and petitions Comments: To: Poetics List In-Reply-To: <293247.3153647636@poetrygrad1.lib.buffalo.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reading on Thursday, Dec. 9, 5:30 pm, Ferguson Theater, Columbia College, 600 S Michigan, Chicago, IL: Susan Wheeler and Paul Hoover ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 11:12:30 -0700 Reply-To: Laura.Wright@Colorado.EDU Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wright Laura E Subject: Re: Seattle businesses boycott In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's almost impossible not to use Windows -- tho I hear there's to be a similar operating system available free- or share-ware soon. BUT one can try not to BUY microsoft products, even if one uses them. A boycott of corporations would be much more to the point than a boycott of Seattle businesses. If you're not already avoiding the biggies (Starbuck, Barnes & Noble, etc.), shame on you. And don't forget to bring your own cup. What does this have to do with poetics? Everything... ------------------ "I would sooner read a timetable or a catalogue than nothing at all." -W. Somerset Maugham Laura E. Wright Norlin Acquisitions (303) 492-8457 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 13:32:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Long Subject: Re: WTO In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had heard of no such thing myself. Maria, would you mind passing along where you heard/read this? I'm sure you're correct, but I would like to follow this a bit more closely and G-d knows we won't hear much about it from the mainstream media. Any word on WHEN the SJC will hear this argument? -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Maria Damon Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 6:51 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: WTO apropos this debacle, did anyone see in the paper that the supreme court is going to hear a case challenging the consitutional necessity of the Miranda Laws????what next???this seems as mindbogglingly cynical as their decision, about 7-10 years ago, to no longer hear capital punishment appeals because they were "too costly." At 12:32 PM -0500 12/3/99, Patrick Herron wrote: >David Bromige wrote - > >>Cities will have to live with the fact that the USA allows peaceful >assembly of dissidents. > >Unfortunately, David, to be quite frank, Amerika DOES NOT allow peaceful >assembly that much any more. The legal protections for peaceful protesters >have been disappearing for a long time. > >Amerika is a police state. Your only protection in Amerika is money, >connections. > >Land of the free, home of the brave >is really >land of the fee, home of the knave. > >And then, lest we forget, there's always agent provocateur activities within >many political movements in the US, people paid to make the peaceful look >violent. > >This was a wonderful note, David. I am very glad you shared it with >everyone. What you are saying in your note is indeed what is going on. I >have a good friend who is at Capitol Hill in the middle of it and I am >worried about him. > >Under a state of emergency, the city of Seattle made it illegal to use a >gaskmask, and the penalty is 180 days in jail and/or a large fine. > >Patrick > > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 13:50:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Essays and reviews sought / Sullivan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message came to the administrative account. Chris ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Date: Thu, Dec 9, 1999 1:47 AM -0500 From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Essays and reviews sought Hello everyone, I've got enough interviews to last me for a while, I think, but I'm really short on essays and reviews. Please get in contact me if you have anything, or would like to work on something, for the Winter 2000 Readme. Deadline's, oh, mid-January, I guess. Many kind thanks, Gary Sullivan Email: gps12@columbia.edu Home Page: http://www.jps.net/nada/gsull.htm Readme: http://www.jps.net/nada ---------- End Forwarded Message ---------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:34:00 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ART ELECTRONICS Subject: Karenina.it News MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit KARENINA.IT karenina.IT Experimental Web-Zine Directed by Caterina Davinio http://geocities.com/Paris/Lights/7323/kareninarivista.html News: Karenina.it for Rome Biennale: > Biennale di Roma. Un grande progetto dedicato alle arti elettroniche, alla televisione di qualità, all'editoria multimediale / Rome Biennale. A great project dedicated to electronic art, television, multimedia publishers di / by Marco M. Gazzano Karenina.it for Mediaterra 99 > Mediaterra 99 / Atene. Un festival dedicato a progetti sperimentali di arti elettroniche dell'area balcanica e del Mediterraneo Mediaterra Festival is an attempt to realize a map of artistic experimental digital & web works of the Mediterranean and Balkan area Teorie / Theories > Interactive poems: intersign perspective for experimental poetry di/by Philadelpho Menezes > La virtualizzazione delle pratiche comunicative: l'ipertesto / Virtualisation Of The Communication Practices: The Hypertext di/by Paolo Ferri > Scrittura e nuove scienze: Poesia e scienza / Writing and New Sciences: Poetry and Science di by Gio Ferri Concorsi / Competitions >"La piazza e il volto" Concorso a premi per giovani artisti / Competition for young artists Maquette, film o video, virtual projects for Internet, publications Libri / books > Poesia/Poetry Segnalazioni Reportages E' successo a... / It has happened... > Europa Festival di Ferentino / Flash Opera > Jean-Jacques Lebel a Napoli > Teatro Totale / Aree Intermediali / Total Theatre Intermedial Areas / Roma > Artmedia VII / Festival / Salerno - Napoli > Computer, letteratura e filologia / Meeting / Roma > Romapoesia / Africa Poesia / Roma > Sulmona Cinema. L'ultima estate del 900 / Sulmona Cinema. The last Summer of 900 > Manifestazioni, festivals, convegni nel mondo / Manifestations, Festival, Meetings (Generative art in Milan, Video Festival in Monterrey, other exhibitions) Link / Links >I nuovi link / The New Links ( Controllate se ci siete! / Control if you are there!) >Tutti i link di poesia sperimentale / All Experimental Poetry Links di / by Caterina Davinio Karenina.IT Karenina.IT Experimental Net-Zine http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Lights/7323/kareninarivista.html Chosen with care (but not only) Updated version of the site KARENINA.IT karenina.IT is a meeting virtual place, and a site for debate between critics, theories, artists, cultural operators, which realises a map of Italian and international research. Karenina.it promotes publications, events and relevant initiatives about not commercial experimental projects. In our pages "Chosen With Care" you are going to find: critical reports, releases, links and information about electronic art, art in the Internet, experimental literature, performative and visual poetry, multimedia, articles about exhibitions, meetings and festivals, editorial news and more. The site realisation (by Caterina Davinio davinio@tin.it) presents hypertext-visual incursions, which bring in the net and combine with telematic communication some techniques typical of the visual poetry. "Karenina.IT" utilises textual and not-textual objects found in the Internet, digital ready made and fragments of virtual reality; in Karenina the acquisition and the transit of the information is act of the performance and net-art opera structure. "karenina.IT" co-operates with "Testuale", Italian literary critic review, and has opened a section called "Imaginary Codes" dedicated to techno-cultures, visions and theories of the Net, in which the same titled fanzine from Rome is published. All the persons interested in our project are asked to diffuse this communication and the site address. English in not our mother language. Who finds some mistakes is asked to send to us a correct version of the texts. People who can translate "karenina.it" Italian pages into English or who can contribute with reports in Italian, English, Spanish or French are welcome! Karenina.it is an open project. Among the numerous co-operators we remember: Mirella Bentivoglio (visual poetry), Tomaso Binga, Paolo Guzzi, Massimo Mori (visual, performative and sonore poetry), Antonio Caronia (horror and science fiction literature), Caterina Davinio (electronic writings and arts, videopoetry, literature), Gio Ferri (literary criticism, multimedia), Paolo Ferri (hypertext theory), Marco Maria Gazzano (electronic art, video art), Marco Minicangeli (noir literature), Francesco Muzzioli (literary criticism), Clemente Padin, Philadepho Menezes (experimental poetry), Roberto Terrosi (philosophy & the arts), Tommaso Trini (arts), Nando Vitale (imaginary codes). For proposing your reports and give information about: theories, books, meeting, manifestations, links or else write to "Karenina.IT" redaction Karenina.it Or to the art director Caterina Davinio davinio@tin.it Karenina.it is a production: Davinio Art Electronics - Archives/Videotheque / Rome / Milan Art Electronics and Other Writings http://space.tin.it/arte/cprezi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 07:53:53 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Subject: Re: space is the place MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd Baron wrote Date: Thursday, 9 December 1999 07:36 Subject: space is the place >thanks to all >for "first american poem" response.I think the list works best for me >when >there is this dialogue. and >thinking of Robert Duncan and his >"poetics of co-response" he talked of >--this--is so important to me. >so: then: reading "Our Town" , thinking of Williams >and the particular--and Oppen (Beautiful Particulars, also) >--what do you think of a poetics of the local (olson?) >that has the inter-net as place? > >per this conversation regarding >an anthology of poetics from this space. > >What happens to place >when place is >all over? according to v recent predictions regarding polar ice-cap melting PLACE is due for some very rapid alteration 70m more water in 5 generations counted as 50 years per generation = 250 years will make the flooding of Venice look like kid's stuff moral: poetry will have no choice but to make for the higher ground I send greetings for the festive season from the highest point of Auckland's North Shore, the future Verran's Corner Island ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 11:59:55 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Kelley Subject: Fw: Borges, of interest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Browsing Poetics as a breather from a project to "translate" a paper-based technical manual into a web labyrinth. Serendipitous link! ---------- > From: f i l c h > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Borges, of interest > Date: Monday, December 06, 1999 10:13 AM > > http://www.salonmagazine.com/books/feature/1999/12/06/borges/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 13:21:40 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Patrick" Subject: Re: Jacobs & Kellow Thursday 12/16 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > LEFT HAND READING SERIES PRESENTS: > > J. L. JACOBS > & > JOHN KELLOW > > Thursday, December 16 at 8:30pm > Left Hand Books, 1825 Pearl Street, between 18th & 19th, above the Crystal > Market. > > J.L. Jacobs is the author of "The Leaves in Her Shoes," and "Varieties of > Inflorescence." A gradaute of the MFA program at Brown, her work has > appeared in New American Writing, Talisman and First Intensity, among > others. She makes her home in Valliant, Oklahoma. > > John Kellow is the publisher of Emerson's Eye Press and the literary arts > writer for the Boulder Planet, where he vigorously promotes the work of > local authors. This is his debut as a featured reader. > > On a personal note: this reading marks the end of my participation as the > co-director of the series. Mark DuCharme will continue as co-director and > will be joined by the very capable Laura Wright. Please give them your > full support. Thanks to everyone who helped make this series such a > success over the past two years. > > Patrick Pritchett ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 14:41:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Miranda news MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable With regard to the Miranda ruling, the most recent news of which I'm aware is what follows: a February case held in the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals. Likely as not, this is moving forward to the Supreme Court now. Dismay is not inappropriate, perhaps, but also hinges on the belief that you've always had "the right to remain silent" or that any such right is worth the paper it is written on; I don't suppose, for example, that Miranda was of much use to Abner Louima. An extreme example, perhaps, but there are innumerable cases on record of suspects' rights being infringed upon in varying degrees - from hours-long delays in reading the prepared statement associated with the Miranda ruling to outright violence; In general, I would say there is a strong relationship between race and class on the one hand and protection under the law on the other. It may also be worth mention- ing that the U.S. Justice Department has never employed Miranda, having considered the ruling to apply only to state and local police. This is not to say that Miranda should be over-ruled - and "conservative" groups such as the National Center for Policy Analysis have fought for years to have it done away with - but rather that the degree of protection it actually provides, and to whom, is a questionable matter indeed. A series of articles by Jan Hoffman, published in The New York Times, may be of interest on this count: # Some Officers Are Skirting Miranda Restraints to Get # Confessions (March 29) - Pointing out how the bright # line rule has been so weakened by exceptions and # workarounds that it no longer has significant meaning. # When Warning Is Little More Than a Speed Bump (March 29) # - Portions of a law enforcement training video on the how # ignoring Miranda has negligible effect on a prosecution. # As Miranda Rights Erode, Police Get Confessions From # Innocent People (March 30) - The how and the why of false # confessions, and why they're so easy when the principles # of fairness inherent in Miranda are ignored. Of further interest may be this article by Special Agent Kimberly A. Crawford of the FBI Academy, in which she reviews restrictions placed by courts on the use of Miranda, and gives suggestions as to how these restrictions can be used by law enforcement agencies to work around the ruling which, she asserts, "has such an onerous impact on law enforcement's ability to conduct interrogations." Christopher W. Alexander poetics list moderator -- In a surprise ruling, a U.S. Court of Appeals has decided that the famous "Miranda warnings," required of police as a precursor to admissible confessions by the U.S. Supreme Court in the 1966 case of Miranda v. Arizona, were actually made optional in federal court by a federal statute passed into law in 1968. The Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals, in a 2-1 panel decision last week in U.S. v. Dickerson, ignored the Justice Department's stated policy position to the effect that the statute is unconstitutional under Miranda and subsequent cases. In spite of a complete lack of briefing or argument by the parties, the court chose to take the lead suggested by an amicus (friend of the court) brief, to bring an issue debated in academia to real life. The majority of the panel found that Miranda is not really based in the constitution, and that as such, it can be and was overruled by the 1968 federal law, which discusses the admissibility of confessions in federal courts. from About.com "Miranda Warnings Optional? Fourth Circuit Forces Issue" Dateline: 02/17/99 -- OPINION Circuit Judge Williams In response to the Supreme Court's decision in Miranda v. Arizona, 384 U.S. 436 (1966), the Congress of the United States enacted 18 U.S.C.A. =A7 3501 (West 1985), with the clear intent of restoring voluntariness as the test for admitting confessions in federal court. Although duly enacted by the United States Congress and signed into law by the President of the United States, the United States Department of Justice has steadfastly refused to enforce the provision. In fact, after initially "taking the Fifth" on the statute's constitutionality, the Department of Justice has now asserted, without explanation, that the provision is unconstitutional. With the issue squarely presented, we hold that Congress, pursuant to its power to establish the rules of evidence and procedure in the federal courts, acted well within its authority in enacting =A7 3501. As a consequence, =A7 3501, rather than Miranda, governs the admissibility of confessions in federal court. Accordingly, the district court erred in suppressing Dickerson's voluntary confession on the grounds that it was obtained in technical violation of Miranda. from UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE FOURTH CIRCUIT No. 97-4750, U.S.A. versus CHARLES THOMAS DICKERSON ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 14:49:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: more Miranda MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I did manage to find one more recent article; this from New York Law Journal for 7 December: "The Justices [have] agreed to decide whether a federal law overturned =8B or at least dramatically limited =8B one of the Court's most famous decisions, one that since 1966 has required police to warn criminal suspects of their rights before questioning them. To be decided by late June in Dickerson v. United States, 99-5525, is whether the incriminating statements a Maryland man made to FBI agents should be used as evidence in his bank robbery trial even though he may not have received a proper Miranda warning." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 14:43:05 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Brennan Subject: Re: WTO MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable what follows is from the Dallas Morning News regarding the Supreme Court=20 review of the constitutional requirement for Miranda rights...... Supreme Court will review landmark Miranda ruling=20 Little-used law says warning to suspects not always needed 12/07/99 By David Jackson / The Dallas Morning News WASHINGTON - When Arizona police obtained a confession from Ernesto Miranda=20 in 1963, the Supreme Court responded with one of its most famous edicts:=20 Police must tell suspects they have the right to remain silent and retain a=20 lawyer. THE MIRANDA WARNING=20 Since 1966, police nationwide have carried small cards with the warnings tha= t=20 criminal suspects are entitled to receive before being questioned. The=20 wording can vary slightly. Here is a typical version:=20 =E2=80=A2 You have the right to remain silent.=20 =E2=80=A2 Anything you say can be used against you in a court of law.=20 =E2=80=A2 You have the right to the presence of an attorney to assist you p= rior to=20 questioning and to be with you during questioning if you so desire.=20 =E2=80=A2 If you cannot afford an attorney, you have the right to have an a= ttorney=20 appointed for you prior to the questioning.=20 =E2=80=A2 Do you understand these rights?=20 SOURCE: Associated Press =20 Now the high court is having second thoughts, inspired by a 1997 conversatio= n=20 between law officers and Maryland resident Charles Dickerson. The justices agreed Monday to review the landmark Miranda ruling of 1966,=20 setting up a legal battle royal over the rights of police and defendants,=20 especially low-income and ill-educated ones. "In the most basic sense, what's at stake is how police are required to=20 protect an individual's constitutional rights," said James W. Hundley, a=20 Virginia lawyer who defended Mr. Dickerson against a robbery charge. A federal judge dismissed Mr. Dickerson's statements about the robbery,=20 saying officers used them to obtain a search warrant before reading him his=20 Miranda rights. The 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, based in Richmond, Va., reinstated th= e=20 case, citing a little-used congressional law passed in 1968. That law - which says Miranda warnings are not required if confessions are=20 voluntary - has been the legal weapon of choice for lawyers who call the=20 Miranda ruling "pro-criminal." "There are tens of thousands of crimes that go unsolved every year because o= f=20 the Miranda rules," said Paul Cassell, a University of Utah law professor wh= o=20 has waged a six-year campaign to overturn the Miranda decision. The Supreme Court invited Mr. Cassell to participate in arguments next year.= =20 The justices will decide the case sometime before July. Familiar phrases Thanks to TV cops like Joe Friday, millions of viewers are familiar with the= =20 Miranda warning typed onto small cards issued to police officers. Chief=20 Justice Earl Warren supplied the wording in one of his court's most praised=20 and criticized rulings. The Miranda decision came to symbolize the more liberal approach of the=20 Warren court. In the decades since, the court has grown increasingly=20 conservative, tending to stress police rights over those of defendants. The case began with the kidnapping and rape of a Phoenix woman on March 2,=20 1963. Eleven days later, police arrested Mr. Miranda, obtaining a confession= =20 after two hours of private interrogation. A jury convicted him and sentenced= =20 Mr. Miranda to 20 years. In appealing to the Supreme Court, defense attorney John Flynn argued that,=20 unlike wealthy or well-connected defendants, an eighth-grade educated=20 indigent like his client had no idea he was entitled to a lawyer. "He was called upon to surrender a right that he didn't fully realize and=20 appreciate that he had," Mr. Flynn told the high court. Gary Nelson, an assistant attorney general for Arizona, countered that if=20 police suggested defendants retain lawyers, it would effectively end all=20 interviews. In writing for a 5-4 majority, Chief Justice Warren stressed the=20 psychological relationship between police and defendants. He said officers are trained to worm confessions out of people by assuming=20 their guilt, then encouraging them to talk by blaming their problems on=20 society. "This atmosphere carries its own badge of intimidation," Chief Justice Warre= n=20 wrote. "To be sure, this is not physical intimidation, but it is equally=20 destructive of human dignity." Justice White's fears Dissenting Supreme Court justices accused the majority of exaggerating polic= e=20 misconduct. They also predicted that the court-crafted Miranda rules would=20 return killers and rapists to the streets. "As a consequence, there will not be a gain, but a loss, in human dignity,"=20 Justice Byron White wrote. Mr. Cassell and other critics say Justice White's fears have come to pass. H= e=20 cited studies suggesting the Miranda rules have gutted cases, either because= =20 the rules shut off interrogations or because police officers committed=20 technical violations in reading the rights. Supporters of the Miranda ruling said evidence of failed prosecutions is=20 vastly overstated, and that most police groups support Miranda. They said th= e=20 rules have forced police and prosecutors to act more professionally and work= =20 harder to build better cases. The case that made his name famous did not free Mr. Miranda. Prosecutors wen= t=20 back to Arizona and convicted him on evidence other than his confession. Eventually released, Mr. Miranda made pocket money by autographing=20 police-issued Miranda cards before he was stabbed to death in a 1976 bar=20 fight. Mr. Dickerson's journey to the Supreme Court began on Jan. 27, 1997. FBI=20 agents and Virginia police visited his Maryland home to discuss an $876 bank= =20 robbery three days earlier in Old Town Alexandria, Va. Mr. Dickerson first denied any knowledge of the robbery but said he had been= =20 in the area when it happened. The FBI then obtained a search warrant for his= =20 home. Apprised of this, Mr. Dickerson told the FBI he had driven to=20 Alexandria with a relative named Jimmy, who had a history of bank robberies. Court records indicate that officers then gave Mr. Dickerson his Miranda=20 warnings, though the timing is in dispute. The case forces the Supreme Court to consider not only the responsibilities=20 of police and suspects, but the relationship between Congress and the courts= . The more conservative court, led by Chief Justice William Rehnquist, has=20 tended to favor police. But it has also struck down what it perceives as=20 congressional attempts to override court rulings. Texas case a factor Two terms ago, in a case involving a Catholic church near San Antonio, the=20 high court slapped down what it called a congressional attempt to overturn a= =20 key church-state ruling. If the court applies the same logic in the Dickerson case, supporters of=20 Miranda said the justices have no choice but to strike down the 1968=20 congressional law. "That was the basis for the [Texas] decision: 'We [the justices] make the=20 constitutional rules, you do not,' " said Steven Shapiro of the American=20 Civil Liberties Union. In upholding the case against Mr. Dickerson, the appeals court chided the=20 Justice Department for not invoking the 1968 law. In a brief to the Supreme=20 Court, Attorney General Janet Reno argued that Miranda is good law and that=20 Congress lacks the authority to tamper with it. Critics of Miranda said Chief Justice Warren did not give the warnings the=20 status of constitutional rights. Therefore, they added, Congress and state=20 legislatures have the right to set rules for criminal trials. The congressional law also does not forbid police from issuing Miranda=20 rulings if they choose to, supporters said. Forced confessions would still b= e=20 forbidden in court, even if the Miranda decision is overturned. "I don't think the sky will fall," Mr. Cassell said. "The only thing that=20 will change is that criminals won't go free because of technicalities." =20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 13:35:30 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Trace Ruggles Subject: Re: WTO MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Here's one very short article about the Miranda case... http://news.excite.com/news/r/991207/06/ut-state-news-3 > -----Original Message----- > From: Brent Long [mailto:brent_long@COMPUTERTOWN.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 12:33 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: WTO > > > I had heard of no such thing myself. Maria, would you mind > passing along > where you heard/read this? I'm sure you're correct, but I > would like to > follow this a bit more closely and G-d knows we won't hear > much about it > from the mainstream media. > > Any word on WHEN the SJC will hear this argument? > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Maria Damon > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 6:51 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: WTO > > > apropos this debacle, did anyone see in the paper that the > supreme court is > going to hear a case challenging the consitutional necessity of the > Miranda Laws????what next???this seems as mindbogglingly > cynical as their > decision, about 7-10 years ago, to no longer hear capital punishment > appeals because they were "too costly." > > At 12:32 PM -0500 12/3/99, Patrick Herron wrote: > >David Bromige wrote - > > > >>Cities will have to live with the fact that the USA allows peaceful > >assembly of dissidents. > > > >Unfortunately, David, to be quite frank, Amerika DOES NOT > allow peaceful > >assembly that much any more. The legal protections for > peaceful protesters > >have been disappearing for a long time. > > > >Amerika is a police state. Your only protection in Amerika is money, > >connections. > > > >Land of the free, home of the brave > >is really > >land of the fee, home of the knave. > > > >And then, lest we forget, there's always agent provocateur activities > within > >many political movements in the US, people paid to make the > peaceful look > >violent. > > > >This was a wonderful note, David. I am very glad you shared it with > >everyone. What you are saying in your note is indeed what > is going on. I > >have a good friend who is at Capitol Hill in the middle of > it and I am > >worried about him. > > > >Under a state of emergency, the city of Seattle made it > illegal to use a > >gaskmask, and the penalty is 180 days in jail and/or a large fine. > > > >Patrick > > > > > > > >______________________________________________________ > >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:22:25 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Re: Seattle businesses boycott MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Linux? It's here L ------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Wright Laura E To: Sent: 08 December 1999 18:12 Subject: Re: Seattle businesses boycott | It's almost impossible not to use Windows -- tho I hear there's to be a | similar operating system available free- or share-ware soon. BUT one can try | not to BUY microsoft products, even if one uses them. | ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 15:02:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: whiteness and poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII in the main, though, Aldon's right about the lack of any attention to poetry/poetics in the current interrogations of whiteness--what gives on this? ************ Michael, in general, you'll find little attention to poetry on the part of theorists who deal with identity politics issues; and indeed, with cultural politics of any sort... When attention is given, it is likely to be to formally conservative forms of writing that can be "interrogated" without talking back too much: that can be examined as transparent, unproblematic statements or symptoms, without worrying about all that messy artistic stuff which theorists would prefer didn't exist. Thus the importance and excitement attaching to the theorist/critics who *are* looking at poetry in relation to the broad public space of race and ethnicity and politics issues....such as listoids Maria and (centrally) Aldon..... --m. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 20:25:11 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathy Lou Schultz Subject: Re: CLASS (fwd) ---------------------- Forwarded Message: --------------------- From: kathylou@worldnet.att.net To: degentesh@earthlink.net Subject: Re: CLASS Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 01:07:39 +0000 Katie, why do you protest so vehemently to posts concerning class and writing? From what position do you justify your argument that discussions of class are in fact separate from discussions of "a poem's actual structure or technique or craft"? What do you deem to be "other interesting things"? Your post seems quite reactionary to me and I frankly find it disturbing. From whence this vehemence to silence discussions about class "(class/race/gender/blah blah blah)"? Do I really have to make a choice between being one or the other, in your words, roles as "writers or civil rights activists"? What about some of the great contemporary innovative writing by poets who are *both*? See, for example, Erica Hunt's Local History. How is it possible to read someone like Hunt without reading race? without reading class, or gender? What kind of world is it that you live in where it is possible to separate language from politics? from power? from race? from class? from gender? You might want to take a look at work being done in poetics, some of the most excellent by folks on this list. See, for example, Aldon Nielsen's Black Chant: Languages of African-American Postmodernism, or the volume edited by Charles Bernstein: The Politics of Poetic Form. Kathy Lou Schultz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 20:29:48 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathy Lou Schultz Subject: Re: whiteness and poetry I agree with this assessment. There's some very interesting work being done on "whiteness" in the social sciences, such as John Hartigan Jr.'s enthnographic studies of poor whites in Detroit and Ruth Frankenberg's ground-breaking work, but literary criticism lags behind. I think there is opportunity, and necessity, to fill the gap. Any suggestions that people have on work that *is* being done in this area in lit crit, please tell. I'm very interested in this topic. Thanks, Kathy Lou Schultz > in the main, though, Aldon's right about the lack of any attention to > poetry/poetics in the current interrogations of whiteness--what gives on > this? > > ************ > > Michael, > > in general, you'll find little attention to poetry on the part of > theorists who deal with identity politics issues; and indeed, with > cultural politics of any sort... > > When attention is given, it is likely to be to formally conservative forms > of writing that can be "interrogated" without talking back too much: that > can be examined as transparent, unproblematic statements or symptoms, > without worrying about all that messy artistic stuff which theorists would > prefer didn't exist. > > Thus the importance and excitement attaching to the theorist/critics who > *are* looking at poetry in relation to the broad public space of race and > ethnicity and politics issues....such as listoids Maria and (centrally) > Aldon..... > > --m. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 13:03:21 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Seattle businesses boycott In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >It's almost impossible not to use Windows I have been using computers at home since the very early eighties, and I have NEVER once used Windows. I would not call that "almost impossible". George Bowering. , fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 14:20:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Taylor Brady Subject: A Nonce Theory of Language Surplus, in Solidarity with Certain Nonsense Syllables Reclaimed by Dodie Bellamy (was RE: CLASS) In-Reply-To: <38484138.1B838903@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Blah blah blah, "it is a judgment" * "This court is generously swayed. Lunch break, sure. That eight-hour day -- yeah, whatever. Blah blah blah. You will not speak to the court as it speaks to you. Now shut up, get back to work. Our syllables are expensive. You are in debt." * ...or talk and work, all the same. Shift by shift the mouth's noise swings so as to empty out. Talk, cooked, goes raw. Material for a monument, polished to receive inscription, take dictation: BLAH BLAH BLAH. Roman caps, human-high. * I was small, the world less so. Late from work, or early for the next day, large people read largely from small books to me. Labored, worked over, beat, gassed, their mouths made many noises. I can't hear. There is one sound, now, the huge robot head out front. Hydraulic steel jaws take industry to move. Blah blah blah - blow by blow the breath behind the heated words gets taken up the ducts as steam. * I can't hear, but my neighbor owns a wrench. And we will learn by gesture and by sign how to take a hinge apart. Name the sorted salvage with one syllable, the only one it ever made for us. And repeat, and then again, calmer than at first. Second time's a charm, third time a curse. ------------------------------------------------------------------ ...all of which, by way of explaining my sense that Dodie's "blah blah blah" functions very differently from Katie Degentesh's. It's one thing to point out satirically (with Dodie) that someone has named themselves as an accomplice in the ideological administration of culture that wants to reduce the status of class, race and gender therein to a "blah blah blah." It's quite another to be such an accomplice, which is the direction in which Katie's intervention tends. Yes, poetry can be one way to think the possibility of a world in which class, race and gender as compulsory narratives of origin are perhaps less binding, in which "we" make culture with collective regard to craft and care, rather than (or at least alongside) the overarching question, "Who benefits?" But it doesn't become such a practice simply by living in denial of the damaged world it's handed, on and in which it has to do whatever work it does. from my "new class" desk job, on my lunch break, Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:22:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Arielle C. Greenberg" Subject: Barbara Guest (& Kenneth Koch) In-Reply-To: <199912040007.QAA12524@lanshark.lanminds.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A little report on a reading, but first a request: I am planning on writing an essay on Barbara Guest's work, mainly focusing on how it has influenced the currently emerging experimental women poets. But I would love citations or suggestions of critical essays on Guest's work that anyone is aware of. Thanks very much. You can backchannel. I was in Barbara Guest's master class for poetry this weekend at the 92nd Street Y, and she was elegant and kind and had astute comments. I also attended her subsequent reading on Monday night with Kenneth Koch, introduced by John Ashbery -- were any of you there? It was a mostly older crowd, who seemed a bit baffled by Barbara Guest's work, but also charmed. She has a lovely voice and her work is difficult and challenging in the best ways. She read mostly from _Rocks on a Platter_. Kenneth Koch read from a forthcoming book of "addresses" -- to things, not places he's lived. They were funny and full of energy, and so was he. Interesting to me how differently the two poets have changed over the years, the very alternate courses their work has taken. Barbara Guest seems, despite her apparent distance from "the academic," more and more interested in "the nature of the text" and her work is very different than her early stuff...Kenneth Koch in many ways seems to be writing in much the same vein, though he is dealing a lot with getting older in his work. Sorry...brief and shallow comments...I am braindead. I'm sure I can be more eloquent and thoughtful if anyone is interested in discussing. Arielle **************************************************************************** "I thought numerous gorgeous sadists would write me plaintive appeals, but time has gone by me. They know where to get better looking boots than I describe." -- Ray Johnson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 14:23:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: Goddess 2000 needs alibis/offerings! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Forgive any crosspost or etc; this came from the wompo list, and i thought some folks on this list might be interested as well. Elizabeth - Call for Submissions ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- ISIS 2000: The Goddess in the New Aeon An Anthology of Goddess Poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- As part of the Goddess 2000 project, the Temple of Isis Los Angeles is sponsoring an anthology of goddess-oriented poetry. Poet Denise Dumars will serve as editor of the project. The anthology will be published in April 2000 and poetry readings will be held in conjunction with other Goddess 2000 events. Guidelines: Poems of high literary value are requested. Despite the title of our anthology, poems need not be about Isis or the Egyptian pantheon. Poetry about goddesses from all cultures are sought, as well as poems about "found" goddesses and cultural and mythological heroines. Please submit poems in the form in which you would like to see them published: i.e., do not double space unless you wish your poem to be double-spaced in the anthology. Your name, address, and phone number should appear on every page you submit. No length limit as yet, but please, no epics! All forms of poetry--free verse, formalist, experimental--are welcome. Please no more than five (5) poems per submission, and no reprints. SASE with adequate postage is required. Sorry, no email submissions. Deadline for submissions: February 1, 2000. Contributors will receive one (1) copy of the anthology per piece accepted and will be invited to participate at poetry readings. A limited amount of artwork will be accepted for this project; artists, please query with samples. Submissions to: ISIS 2000 Denise Dumars, Editor P. O. Box 83 Manhattan Beach, CA 90267-0083 Sponsored by the Temple of Isis Los Angeles/Iseum of Isis Pelagia, part of the Fellowship of Isis, Clonegal Castle, Enniscorthy, Eire (Ireland). ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 14:29:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Damion Searls Subject: Re: event postings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> LEFT HAND READING SERIES PRESENTS: [...] >> Thursday, December 16 at 8:30pm >> Left Hand Books, 1825 Pearl Street, between 18th & 19th, above the Crystal >> Market. When advertising events on this list, can you be sure to put the city?! (putting it in the message title would be even better). Thanks, Damion Searls ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:41:35 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: whiteness and poetry In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" i guess the most interesting thing abt this potential field of study would not be, for example, a mere transposition of the insights of "whiteness studies" onto poetic texts or authors, but an investigation into the categories of poetry and whiteness themselves and what *special* relationship, if any, obtained between them. one might postulate, for example, on how the New Critics/Southern Agrarians conceived of poetry and how that conception came to be socially dominant, in connection with the link (and there was one, very explicitly) between the New Critics and a possessive investment in whiteness. One could also think along lines of specific privileges accorded to whteness and specific assumptions about the "special" place of poetry in literary discourse, and how this specialness is used to render non-white poetries invisible *as* poetry (i.e. it can only serve as sociological evidence, it isn't "good," etc). certain *forms* are also associaetd with whiteness, different class statuses and ethnicites within what is generally called "white," etc. At 3:02 PM -0500 12/8/99, Mark Prejsnar wrote: >in the main, though, Aldon's right about the lack of any attention to >poetry/poetics in the current interrogations of whiteness--what gives on >this? > >************ > >Michael, > >in general, you'll find little attention to poetry on the part of >theorists who deal with identity politics issues; and indeed, with >cultural politics of any sort... > >When attention is given, it is likely to be to formally conservative forms >of writing that can be "interrogated" without talking back too much: that >can be examined as transparent, unproblematic statements or symptoms, >without worrying about all that messy artistic stuff which theorists would >prefer didn't exist. > >Thus the importance and excitement attaching to the theorist/critics who >*are* looking at poetry in relation to the broad public space of race and >ethnicity and politics issues....such as listoids Maria and (centrally) >Aldon..... > >--m. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 18:30:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: The Traceroute Project - Please Participate (fwd) In-Reply-To: <80256841.0033CD32.00@notescam.cam.harlequin.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII If the Net grinds to a halt, traceroute would record this; I could see a lot of broken limbs out there. Surprisingly, since this announcement has gone the route so to speak, there's been very little indication of duplication - one site is doing a visual look at the world, but more in terms of the creation of an overall graphic - I'm more interested in the bones of everything - Alan Internet Text at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Partial at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 15:08:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Organization: e.g. Subject: Re: Humble Seed MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Wasn't this the intent of Sun 'n Moon's Gertrude Stein volumes? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 18:42:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: Re: Class & Poet[ry/ics] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Aldon -- When talking about the perception of race in poetry, I'm dealing mainly with "mainstream" public discourse, as opposed to study within the academy -- I have no familiarity with whiteness studies, and I hope I didn't claim to. What I'm reporting is more the impression that what the mainstream media often talk about when they talk about a writer's socioeconomic status is the writer's race. The way the local poetry bookstore here, for example, organizes its books is by race. Now, to a certain extent this ordering makes sense. But it does seem clear to me that I would never walk in to a bookstore and find a shelf "working class poetry", or if I did, I'd know immediately that it was a conscious decision on the part of the manager rather than an acceptance of a particular, commonly accepted mode of putting the bricks in the boxes. So what do I mean when I say that class can be used as a blind for race? To me, the division of poetry and poetic practice by race is "a bad thing" -- which may play off of some of my assumptions about poetry. Such as, I believe that experimental poetry is a "sensical term", and that experiment implies collaboration, and that collaborations are the most productive and the most interesting when there aren't barriers to entry. Given that the division is a bad thing, it seems that it should be something talked about, or worked with/on, or at least acknoledged by a group of readers/writers/critics on a self-described avant-garde poetry list. Saying "the real division is class" often amounts to (a) denying, sidelining the problematic of race divisions and (b) suggesting that divisions are a good thing to start making. For example -- the "outing" of class (a class outing?) on the list a few days back. What purpose does this serve? And would we want to start outing people by race? Given that we didn't bring up race when we talked about the class membership of people on the list -- but many of us probably agree that the problem of class is partly a problem of race -- wasn't the effect of bringing up class in this way effectively a way of *avoiding* talking about race, a way of apparently discussing socioeconomic status without mentioning race? -- Simon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 06:14:34 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Readers Organization: Re*Map Magazine Subject: Re: space is the place MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit YONDER! (roanoke!) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:40:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: travis ortiz Subject: Atelos #5 by Lytle Shaw MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cable Factory 20 by Lytle Shaw Atelos is pleased to announce the publication of Cable Factory 20, by Lytle Shaw. About the book: Inspired by the artist Robert Smithson’s constructed, site-specific convergences, Lytle Shaw has created both a long poem and a complex site for it. The lines of the poem sit amid assorted visual images and atop cartographic backgrounds. This complex layering of verbal and visual vocabularies produces a terrain of enormous fascination and beauty. It is also pertinent to the larger themes of the work, which is about formations and sedimentations — about deposits of meaning and the forms that rise out of or settle into them. The work (in 20 sections preceded by a four-part prefatory section) is built around terms from geology and from industry. It traces structures and observes workings. Like William Wordsworth in The Prelude, Shaw finds us situated amid these traces, tracing ourselves. “All links pressure skin.” “Sorting can go on indefinitely.” “Letters man the fill.” About the author: Lytle Shaw has previously published four poetry chapbooks. Two of these, Flexagon and The Rough Voice, were created in collaboration with the artist Emilie Clark, with whom he edits Shark, a journal of poetics and art writing. The other two, Low Level Bureaucratic Structures: A Novel and Principles of the Emeryville Shellmound , also include visual vocabularies, giving evidence of Shaw’s continuing investigations of the relation of poetry to the languages of art and architecture. He grew up in Ithaca, New York. After studying architecture and literature at Cornell University, he attended the University of California at Berkeley, where he is completing a dissertation on Frank O’Hara. His essays and poems have appeared in numerous publications, including The Chicago Review, Poetics Journal, Qui Parle, and Arshile. He now lives in New York City. About the project: Atelos was founded in 1995 as a project of Hip’s Road. It is devoted to publishing, under the sign of poetry, writing which challenges the conventional definitions of poetry, since such definitions have tended to isolate poetry from intellectual life, arrest its development, and curtail its impact. All the works published as part of the Atelos project are commissioned specifically for it, and each is involved in some way with crossing traditional genre boundaries, including, for example, those that would separate theory from practice, poetry from prose, essay from drama, the visual image from the verbal, the literary from the non-literary, and so forth. The Atelos project when complete will consist of 50 volumes; Cable Factory 20 is volume 5. The project directors and editors are Lyn Hejinian and Travis Ortiz; the director for production and design is Travis Ortiz; cover production and design is by Ree Hall. Ordering information: Cable Factory 20 may be ordered from Small Press Distribution, 1341 Seventh Street, Berkeley, CA 94710-1403; phone 510-524-1668 or toll-free 800-869-7553; e-mail: orders@spd.org. Title: Cable Factory 20 Author: Lytle Shaw Price: $12.95 Pages: 112 ISBN: 1-891190-05-9 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 15:28:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: levitsk@ATTGLOBAL.NET Subject: Fw: demand release of WTO prisoners Comments: To: Damion Searls , "Christina B. Hanhardt" , Chris Chen , Bino Alvin Realuyo , "Barber, Stefani" , ANDERSON DAVID , Al Kelly , Akilah Oliver , Aja Duncan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Jennifer Flynn To: Undisclosed.Recipients@mail.dti.net Date: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 12:09 PM Subject: Fw: demand release of WTO prisoners > >-----Original Message----- >From: L.A. Kauffman >To: Undisclosed-Recipient:; >Date: Sunday, December 05, 1999 4:58 PM >Subject: Fwd: demand release of WTO prisoners > > >>Friends -- A large number of WTO protesters are still being held >>by the Seattle police. >> >>The WTO actions were a huge success -- show your support and >>appreciation for what they accomplished by demanding the >>immediate release of all WTO arrestees: >> >>CALL AND EMAIL SEATTLE MAYOR PAUL SCHELL >>206-684-4000 mayors.office@ci.seattle.wa.us >>> >>CALL AND EMAIL SEATTLE POLICE CHIEF NORM STAMPER >>206-684-5577 chief.police@ci.seattle.wa.us >>> >>CALL AND EMAIL WASHINGTON STATE GOVERNOR GARY LOCKE >>360-753-6780 governor.locke@governor.wa.gov >> >>TELL THEM THAT WTO OR NOT - THE U.S. CONSTITUTION >>STILL APPLIES! >> >> >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 23:34:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: maria damon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I desperately, immediately need to contact Maria Damon -- Maria -- Damon. Contacting: Maria Damon. Help! Does anyone know how I do it? How! It's Important! Help me! Please, let Maria Damon know I need to get "in touch" with her. If you know how I do this -- thank god! If you know -- great! If, that is, you know. Very concerned to make contact with Maria Damon, Shall R. Nameless ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 00:04:01 -0500 Reply-To: ndorward@sprint.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nate and Jane Dorward Subject: New Publication: Allen Fisher's _The Topological Shovel_ Comments: To: British-Poets List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A quick commercial break here: the first publication from The Gig Editions, an offshoot of _The Gig_ magazine-- ALLEN FISHER: THE TOPOLOGICAL SHOVEL This book collects four essays first published in the early 1980s: they form a crucial adjunct to Fisher's poetic sequence _Gravity as a consequence of shape_ but until now have remained difficult of access. The book is in two parts. Part One--“Thumbnail Lecture”, “The Mathematics of Rimbaud” and “The Topological Shovel”--sets forth, in a variety of modalities, the preoccupations that inform _Gravity as a consequence of shape_. Part Two consists of the long essay “Necessary Business”, in which Fisher discusses the work of three contemporary British poets, Eric Mottram, J.H. Prynne and Cris Cheek, as exemplary texts of a poetics of “new pertinence”. _The Topological Shovel_ itself remains pertinent reading to those involved in nonstandard and avantgarde poetics, on either side of the Atlantic. -- A short bibliography gives a list of the main sections of _Gravity_ that have to date been published, with information on how to acquire them. 52pp, large format; $12 Canadian (includes postage within North America) or 6 pounds 50 (includes postage to UK/abroad). Cheques should be payable on a Canadian bank & be made out to "Nate Dorward". Send to: Nate Dorward, 109 Hounslow Ave., Willowdale, ON, M2N 2B1, Canada (email: ndorward@sprint.ca). ------ .....and that's it folks: except that I should mention the planned Feb/March publication of _The Gig_ #4/5, which will be a large (200+pp) perfectbound issue of the magazine devoted to critical articles on the poetry of Peter Riley. Contributors include Peter Middleton, Bob Perelman, Peter Robinson, John Hall, Simon Perril, Mark Morrisson, Keston Sutherland, Keith Tuma, Nigel Wheale, Lorand Gaspar, Tony Lopez, James Keery, Tony Baker.... et al! Advance subscriptions are very much necessary for this project: those who want copies but have yet to subscribe are urged to drop me a line. all best --N Nate Dorward ndorward@sprint.ca 109 Hounslow Ave., Willowdale, ON, M2N 2B1, Canada ph: (416) 221 6865 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 14:34:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: next week's readings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Next week at the Poetry Project Monday, December 13th at 8 pm Daniel Bouchard & Marcella Durand Daniel Bouchard's first full-length book, _Diminutive Revolutions_, is forthcoming in Jan/Feb from SubPress. His chapbook, "Wrackline," was published this year by Situations. He is the former editor of Mass Ave and a tenant organizer in Cambridge. He is overall a fine & diligent fellow. Marcella Durand is the author of _City of Ports_, published this year by Situations Press; the poetry editor of Erato Press, a fine-arts and letterpress based in New Orleans; the program coordinator and web-site editor for the Poetry Project; and the one writing this sentence. As pointed out to her this week, this reading will be the last Monday Night Event of the millennium. Wednesday, December 15th at 8 pm George Quasha & Charles Stein Quasha is the author of Ainu Dreams (1999) and the co-editor of several anthologies, including America A Prophecy (with Jerome Rothenberg). With Charles Stein he is the publisher of Station Hill Books. Charles Stein is the author of 10 books of poetry, including _The Hat Rack Tree_. Since the early 1980s, Stein has been at work on _theforestforthetrees_, which he defines as a "textual practice." And yes, this will be the last Wednesday Night Event of the millennium. Friday, December 17th at 10:30 pm A Night of Taboos Part II: Closet Cases, Addiction, & Toilets Featuring readers Cheryl B., Sharon Mesmer, Brian Blanchfield, Morris Kurzman, Douglas A. Martin, and Gojmir Polajnar. This will not only be the last Friday Night Event, etc. etc., but the last event before our Annual New Year's Day Marathon Reading Saturday, January 1, 2000, 2 pm - past midnite. With 120 poets & performers including Patti Smith, Jim Carroll, Cecil Taylor, Richard Foreman, Lenny Kaye, Elliot Sharp, Dael Orlandersmith, and many more...$15; $12 for students, seniors & members, but volunteers get in free! (hint, hint) Call (212) 674-0910 for more information. We have no programs from Dec. 20-31, and our office will be closed on Dec. 24th. *** The Poetry Project is located in St. Mark's Church at the corner of 2nd Ave. & 10th St. in Manhattan. The Project is wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. Please call (212) 674-0910 for more information. Regularly scheduled events are $7; $4 for students and seniors. *** "Rise, all as you are, let revolt shake the city and seize her! Come to us in the USSR I'll see to it you all get a visa!" -Vladimir Mayakovsky, "Paris (Chatting with the Eiffel Tower)" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 21:39:06 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: daniel labeau Subject: Lowenthal Request Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Howdy-- I'm in search of Jessica Lowenthal's e-mail address (or alternative contact info.) I would greatly appreciate any help. Thanks, Daniel Labeau ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 23:19:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Toni Simon and Nick Piombino Subject: Arcades Project-Walter Benjamin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Apropos of the Seattle W.T.O. Meeting and Mayor Guiliani's banishment of the homeless: "Of the coming society, it is said that 'nothing in the sanguinary, blasphemous, or unnatural dreams of the utopians can be compared to what will actually happen. . . .Rulers will be compelled, in order to maintain their position and create a semblance of order, to resort to methods that would appall present-day mankind, hardened as it is. . . .Justice- if, in this fortunate epoch, any justice can still exist- will forbid the existence of citizens who are unable to make a fortune. . . .those times are perhaps quite close at hand. Who knows whether they are not here already- whether it is not simply the coarsening of our natures that keeps us from noticing what sort of atmosphere we already breathe?'" Ch.B(audelaire)., Oeuvres, vol. 2,pp.640-641. [p.315, The Arcades Project; Walter Benjamin, Harvard U.P., 1999] Nick Piombino ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 01:30:18 -0500 Reply-To: ndorward@sprint.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nate and Jane Dorward Subject: Fw: Addendum re: _Topological Shovel_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A query from Lawrence Upton on the British-Poets List about foreign currency payments prompts me to post the following. --N Nate & Jane Dorward ndorward@sprint.ca 109 Hounslow Ave., Willowdale, ON, M2N 2B1, Canada ph: (416) 221 6865 ---------- From: Nate and Jane Dorward To: Lawrence Upton Cc: British-Poets List Subject: Re: New Publication: Allen Fisher's _The Topological Shovel_ Date: Thursday, December 09, 1999 11:47 AM Lawrence: thanks for pointing out the unclarity in the announcement (& the omission): 1) "payable on a Canadian bank" doesn't mean it's in Canadian funds or written from a Canadian bankaccount: it just means that it's a (UK or US) cheque (in UK or US funds) which my bank here will accept. Actually, most UK or US cheques are just fine here--I've only ever had one intractable problem (a cheque from the Poetry Library). The best thing to do is just to tell the teller at the bank what you're trying to do & ask if there will be any problems. -- If you decide to go with Canadian funds it's $15 Cdn to send one to the UK. 2) yes: Peter Riley (Books) will have the _Shovel_ for sale. Address: 27 Sturton St., Cambridge, CB1 2QG, UK; email: . I should lastly point out that the first volume of _Brixton Fractals_ has been recently reprinted by Tsunami Editions (Vancouver). I have a few spare copies if someone wants to purchase both the _Shovel_ and _Fractals_: the combined price would be $21 Cdn/ $15.50 US / 10 pounds 50 UK. It's also obtainable through Peter Riley or direct from Tsunami (#14—1507 East 2nd Ave., Vancouver, B.C., V5N 1C8, Canada; email: ). all best --N Nate Dorward ndorward@sprint.ca 109 Hounslow Ave., Willowdale, ON, M2N 2B1, Canada ph: (416) 221 6865 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 23:18:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Katie Degentesh Subject: Hey! Katie's on the radio Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Friends, fans, felines and foes: Please tune in to 93.7 FM this coming Monday, December 13th at 7 pm, when I will read my own work and discuss the Bay Area "poetry scene" with Michael Disend on his San Francisco Liberation Radio show, "Wild Dog Wisdom." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 03:07:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: rush1-5// MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII / rush // going into the frame buffer then out and lowering the pedestal before sending to the toaster where it coagulates with a frozen wipe set half-way according to the other half of the connection from the hi8 camera through the effects generator and the whole running into the other hi8 camera and connecting with the line input from the audio mixer and the effects box lined up with the mirage and guitar effects box, time base correctors all over the place for field freezing and signal corrections, eye always on the waveform monitor and vectorscope among the analog machines connected and interconnected with adobe premier and the relatively slow pc with the huge hard-drive getting its images from the hi8 output before closing out and slowly losing sync running through the toaster, the guitar set hard through the marshall amplifier raising and peaking the harmonics, cutting them out at the lean sound, shakuhachi and voice combined, azure and me on the floor, on the chair, microphones everywhere, the bolex tripod doubling as whole worlds look down on us, us, us rush ii / new 3/4" edit deck replacing old worn-out broken belt, color camera connector held together by tape, hi8s freed for camera work, this 3/4" does insert so black-bursting at the moment through the toaster, setting up the 1970s character generator for the block look, beginning working this morning, now it's operating fine in roll crawl and grid mode, worked with the quicktime images today, as well as azure-ballet and other supporting or non-supporting materials, hokey guitar playing, some mirage as well but a great deal of speech processing, i had wanted to go that route, meanwhile insert editing didn't quite work without rollback on the hi8 cameras so i've been rerecording and cutting into the original 3/4" work since the hi8 rollback is ok for recording then rerecording with time base corrector and noise reduction into and through the matrix, constantly reworking the patchcords, also using the analog synthesizer this afternoon in order to switch between three cameras controlled with a voltage-controlled amplifier which then went into the effects on the toaster 4000 and out again through the usual checkups including phase which is always slightly off and pedestal always fiercely lowered, using the audio echo only sparingly and recording a long sequence with azure- ballet on the laptop and shooting off it with the hi8, then transferring it to the other hi8 with the tine base corrector and noise reduction to begin the sequencing described here rush3 // azure in korean wedding dress and an abacus will play a role, reed flute, egyptian _nay,_ already at work for sound, moved all the equipment i brought to one end of the loft for more room, getting ready for still photography, using the frame buffer again for comical alan waving the _nay,_ color camera placed in position, buffer creating noh images across the repetition and slow movement, facial closeups as one image is always slightly displaced from the other, the phase controls transforming colors into jades, will be a silent work except for clacking on occasion, nothing more, sound of abacus beads in noh rhythm framework, _nay_ playing improving, thinking about finnish folklore, shaman songs, noh plays again, some things from the upanishads, the equipment still silent behind me, decided not to use any of those things, looking at noise in the old 1970s text generator, it's forced into on-screen characters, just like a dream is forced from neural noise, thinking perhaps make a piece with all of this, the dreamwork of the machine manifest in a text which takes the indecipherable murmurings of the universe one step further rush4 // or if not the universe one step further those insidious sysadmins who keep my day to a minimum of pleasure, stepping on my fabulous trace- route plans, one warning that if i had my way, y2k would look like a holi- day. if i were so lucky, the net would collapse of its own, one dialup connect to a happy isp and real audio or another duke nukem out of date saga and there goes the planet. meanwhile the hunger of the equipment calls me forth; it's roaring behind me; i can't escape it, or my depres- sion, which has deepened, bad sleep even here, my job worries following me everywhere, i live with death, i don't want to spend the next several dec- ades pathetically looking for work, my knowledge means nothing, i'm not a man blah blah, i'm not even human blah blah, i'm too full of self-hatred blahblah, i'm my own worst enemy blahblah, blahblahblablablablablblblbbbb, i don't know how azure puts up with me, or why, i must have my moments, they just don't stick around, back working with noise in the machine, the master tape has too much dropout (3/4"!), i'm sending through the time base correctors again and adding noise reduction by copying it to the hi8 5000 camera, back and forth, meanwhile the tr81 records tapes that jitter in the 5000, but the 5000 records tapes that play fine in the tr81 and the tr81 tapes play fine in it as well, recording out in bitter cold susque- hanna river, working the keying in the toaster and trying for a third source after recording electric guitar through air coupling (marshall amplifier, effects, etc. into microphone then into mixer and additional effects, resonating in the room for added texture, keeping the whole in balance), adding nay material to the five-second-delay setting, along with new shakuhachi work, now i work at dancing on the guitar too fast to see my hands, want that freedom of pure touch ahead of visual feedback, here i am on such and such a fret, need the internal roar, that's all i have left of me, this this this this this, this internal roar rush5 // the harder days are those when i'm down, working through it, my music perhaps better, the video veering however into uncomfortable terri- tory, as if i want my truths, but veiled. veiled truth - because the ob- verse is death of course. today working with azure again, keying in water images against a very flattened and somewhat hysteric to-be-determined studio imagery, as well as more musical recording. i worry that my hands will slow up; arthritic, i'll remember the fingerboard of the guitar, al- most a physical memory, the very _thick_ of it, but not the skill the ab- ility to move fast, produce the complexity called for by the mind. when my fingers are invisible, it's the physical against the physical, sound com- ing in from the remnants of the world, what i can see, if i could see the things of space that make the air what it is, air-mountains and valleys, air-trees and rivers, all the air-creatures of this or any other earth. went out riding to johnson city, the village of johnson city, saw a very old working carousal there, as well as a pagoda housing parts of an elec- trical plant, which i photographed, came back and did another 45 minute music tape, only recording on one side, my fingers hardly moving at this point, but very satisfied with the sound, going for the shakuhachi later, it's dark out, river's right outside the window about twenty meters down, i've been feeling physically a lot healthier since i've been here, what a surprise, working with a digital delay system and upped it to 32 seconds for late-night recording and working with a digital shortwave as well, put up the antenna east/west this evening, only direction really possible in the building, working with themes of alienation, seduction, gender, the psychoanalytics of the image, the haunting of the imaginary - which brings up this intensive work with largely analog equipment, reading the old waveform monitors once again, tweaking everything from phase to gain to offset to pedestal, this _visual_ state-of-affairs, riding a system that refuses constructivity - the only subtext is that of the ntsc signal it- self, and the rest is amplitude, frequency, etc., with the delay, symbols for queen, mouth, wheel, superimposed over disheveled azure mouthing aah, my aah as well off-camera, she's in an open kimono, nothing revealed, glazed look, tripods everywhere, my mouth's long aaah in background, this for an evening, but this mindset of the analog, stringing units in any direction, shortwave in the background looking for numbers stations, it's the spectral mother all over again, voices, voices, voices _________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 00:38:19 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Leonard Brink Subject: Re: CLASS (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First of all, let me admit that I haven't been following this thread all that closely because it bores me, and that I might be missing something as a result. But I do find it odd that Katie's very mild post is characterized as "vehement" and "reactionary" simply because she expresses a point of view that isn't consistent with the political hegemony/correctness that is the dominant discourse on this list. Kathy Lou asks: >What kind of world is it that you live in where it is >possible to separate language from politics? from power? >from race? from class? from gender? Of course language can't be seperated from any of those things. They're made out of language. Poems are made out of language, too. But it just doesn't follow that poems are made of politics, class, etc. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 10:13:12 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roger Day Subject: Re: The Traceroute Project - Please Participate (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Umm. You miss my point :-) You could be part of the problem. Traceroute will generate a large amount of traffic in it's own right. At 1999-12-08 23:30:49, Alan Sondheim wrote: # If the Net grinds to a halt, traceroute would record this; I could see a # lot of broken limbs out there. Surprisingly, since this announcement has # gone the route so to speak, there's been very little indication of # duplication - one site is doing a visual look at the world, but more in # terms of the creation of an overall graphic - I'm more interested in the # bones of everything - Alan # # Internet Text at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt # Partial at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html # Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm # Roger ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 08:59:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: sociology of bookstores MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Simon DeDeo writes: "The way the local poetry bookstore here, for example, organizes its books is by race. Now, to a certain extent this ordering makes sense. But it does seem clear to me that I would never walk in to a bookstore and find a shelf "working class poetry", or if I did, I'd know immediately that it was a conscious decision on the part of the manager rather than an acceptance of a particular, commonly accepted mode of putting the bricks in the boxes." ***************************** The overall shape of poetry in bookstores, tells us some interesting things about the current shape of culture. I have not seen too many stores that "organize their books by race," and the idea is pretty fascinating. When i lived in Boston, the magnificent poetry bookshop, Groliers, had essentially two sequences: almost all books of poetry, organized alphabetically by author, and a separate sequence taking up about three shelves, labelled Language Poetry. As the Boston poet Joe Torra pointed out to the owner, this was surely a major ghettoization kind of move, and represented a sharp (albeit ambiguous) statement.... I've just noticed Simon is writing from a Hahhvahd account: it isn't the current arrangement at Groliers you're referring to is it? --m. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 09:57:07 -0800 Reply-To: filch.net@chronotope.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: f i l c h Subject: Re: The Traceroute Project - Please Participate Comments: cc: sondheim@panix.com, rday@harlequin.co.uk In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Traceroute is a simple event. Very little data is moved. The idea that this could cause the net to have problems is crazy. Even with all the other stuff to be moved on that date. I would suggest that with most businesses shut down the actual traffic on the network on the changeover will actually be smaller than average and certainly smaller than peaks from the past It sounds to me like a great idea to map the hops at the change to the new year. It seems pointless to refrain from doing this because of concerns about network stability. Just my 2 cents. filch > From: Alan Sondheim > Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 18:30:49 -0500 > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: The Traceroute Project - Please Participate (fwd) > > If the Net grinds to a halt, traceroute would record this; I could see a > lot of broken limbs out there. Surprisingly, since this announcement has > gone the route so to speak, there's been very little indication of > duplication - one site is doing a visual look at the world, but more in > terms of the creation of an overall graphic - I'm more interested in the > bones of everything - Alan > > Internet Text at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt > Partial at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html > Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 10:20:26 -0800 Reply-To: booglit@excite.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kirschenbaum Subject: Call for Submissions: Booglit 7: The Baseball Issue Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 206.0.199.123 Call for Submissions: Booglit 7: The Baseball Issue Deadline 1/15/2000, Publication Date 3/15/2000 This issue will focus on the life and death of Pee Wee Reese and the 45th anniversary of the Brooklyn Dodgers only world championship, and be put together with the assistance, and feature an essay by, his son, Mark. It will also concentrate on the literary communities of Louisville, Kentucky--Reese's birthplace--and Brooklyn, New York. I am especially looking for work on baseball, and work by Brooklyn and Louisville authors. General creative work is also accepted from the at-large community with no thematic or geographical restrictions. Editorial Staff: Anselm Berrigan, baseball poetry editor; Kent Fielding (White Fields Press) Louisville editor; and Chris Stroffolino, Brooklyn editor. Submit up to five poems or pages of poetry, prose (includes reviews, interviews, and journalism, too), or artwork to: David Kirschenbaum, editor Booglit 351 W.24th St., Apt. 19E NY, NY 10011-1510 Atnn: BL7 Email inquiries to: booglit@excite.com as ever, David _______________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 14:58:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Bernadette Mayer, David Byrne & the Marquis de Sade in latest Rain Taxi (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit this came the administrative account. -------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Date: Friday, December 10, 1999, 11:51 PM -0500 From: Gary Sullivan To: poetics@acsu.buffalo.edu Subject: Bernadette Mayer, David Byrne & the Marquis de Sade in latest Rain Taxi Rain Taxi Volume 4, No. 4 is now available. Interviews with: Bernadette Mayer (by Bridget Shields) and David Byrne (by Eric Lorberer) Rikki Ducornet, Rod Smith and David Eton on the Marquis de Sade Reviews of new books by Mumia Abu-Jamal, Claribel Alegria, Anselm Berrigan, Edmund Berrigan, Angela Carter, Robert Creeley, Connie Deanovich, Laurie Foos, Jamie Gordon, John High, Agymah Kamau, Robert Kelly, Yoshitaka Kiyama, Paul Lisicky, Lisa Lubasch, Laura Mullen, Terri de la Pena, Georges Perec, Lynne Tillman, & dozens more ... "The New Life" ... my serialized cartoon, "Living with Chris" "Critical Issues," Erik Belgum & I discuss the "Artistic Ruboff" concept & much more. Subscribe & help keep this lively quarterly afloat! Cheap! 1 year/$10 international/16 RAIN TAXI Eric Lorberer, Editor P.O. Box 3840 Minneapolis, MN 55403 www.raintaxi.com ---------- End Forwarded Message ---------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:01:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Group 4, response to DuPlessis and Bellamy (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable this came to the administrative account. Please make sure you send posts you want forwarded to the list to "poetics@listserv.buffalo.edu", not the "acsu" account. Thanks ______________________________________ ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Date: Friday, December 10, 1999, 2:53 PM -0500 From: "Stefans, Brian" To: "'poetics@acsu.buffalo.edu'" Subject: Group 4, response to DuPlessis and Bellamy I'm wasn't really sure how to respond to your post, Rachel, except perhaps to recycle some arguments from Sianne Ngai's "Poetics of Disgust" essay, which I don't have on hand. It seems, nonetheless, to have something to = do with the "good doo doo" (a quote from a Deanna Ferguson poem) aspect of = the "abject" corner of Language writing, and I guess is forcing a = consideration of the ugliness of its clashing syllables versus the relative clarity of = the references to thinkers such as Kristeva (whom I've never really read) and Freud. And to suggest, elsewhere, that the "dream" permits a sort of = never coming to "terms" with gender, which I suppose is a position I am = attracted to (I tend to call it enforced adolescence, hence putting it in a social scale) though would not quite know how to declare. McCaffery on semantic slippage in bpNichol's wordplay also comes to mind, but I'm not sure = whether I should interpret the text or respond to it on its terms (a little of = both, it seems). However, now that my stream-of-nothingness is running full speed, here is a direct connect: I was reading Paul Goodman's Growing Up Absurd this morning on the subway, = a book which is kind of boring to read all the way through, and when it's least boring it seems rather wrong, but nonetheless interesting as an attempted dialogue with a generation much younger than him, the Beats in = the case of the chapter I find interesting. He writes, concerning the = sexuality of the Beats: "So perhaps another reason for their dropping the old physical jazz and revival is just the opposite, that the display of energy would upset their coolness, it would be embarrassing to make them feel too young. I wonder = if this is not the simple explanation of their disdain of social dancing as "dry" sex; for certainly one of the reasonable uses of social dancing is body contact and sometimes sexual foreplay. But these boys are = embarrassed to get an erection, to betray feeling, in public, though they are more = than willing to take their clothes off and exhibit themselves, or to beat a = drum wildly in public as an exhibition for the others, but not as contact with them." (182) This addresses one paradox, as the purported "freedom" associated with running around naked that is held up against society's repression actually comes up cold in those moments within society in which "sexual foreplay" = can be enacted in public. I remember reading in Habermas about the sixties political youth movements that there was a certain narcissism present in much of this activity that would limit the actions to displays, but that there was no chance for them to take the majority role once anything was achieved as their self-image would be disrupted. I think of this a fair amount (poets should dress like bankers, Auden once wrote), as I wonder = how many are willing to make this flip from performative disdain to = responsible member of a community should that community gain political weight, or whether anyone cares about this. Elsewhere Goodman writes of these male Beat poets have a "healthy sexuality" in fact, but he sees the role that women played in the community as primarily maternal, with the young men bursting into tears the moment someone like Kenneth Patchen says their poetry's childish, and the woman poet stepping in to coo reassurances in their ear. This seems a little opposite of what we generally take to be = the story of the Beat era, whose best poets were gay and whose women poets = were often radical individualists (is that a word?) but had been excluded from the male-centered self-canons. But Goodman makes it clear that "Beat" and "artist" were not synonymous (he argues many points regarding this), = hence, though there were hundreds of people keeping notebooks and drawing = pictures and calling themselves "artists", few had a framework for viewing the = world in terms of social relations due to the pure excitment of the Beat = community itself as experience. (This brings to mind something tangential: we all bitch and moan about how the "community" is not fer real today, it's just some pose, but actually, were the community to be as exciting and self-concerned as the Beats, we might have worse poets -- who knows.) Anyway, to bring this back to Dodie's essay, there seems to be a paradox present in that she writes she is "working towards a writing that subverts sexual bragging, a writing that champions the vulnerable, the fractured, = the disenfranchised, the sexually fucked-up," and at the same time would not want one with "x-ray vision" to see the "frayed elastic on my panties." = Her essay itself, which argues for the person for whom "EAT SHIT" could be an erotic suggestion, seems to set up a forceful argument along the lines of "you must take all of this in to 'qualify' as a radical" via a very performative language -- she don't mince words -- and yet at the same time looks at the "vulnerable," and where radical sexuality crosses with social pose in the many anecdotes later on. So the abstraction of the "body", = she argues, should be brought to some specific materiality probably through anecdote (as she is a prose writer), but on the other she as the reader becomes vulnerable once this body appears in the writing -- hence the challenge, the need for form in presenting oneself. Both pure abstraction = -- leaping from critical term to critical term -- and pure exhibitionism -- = as I've heard at several New York poetry readings and probably not for the = last time: "here is a poem about my CLITORIS" (hahaha goes the audience) -- = fail because they don't engage with the struggle with form. Well, I'm not asking everyone, i.e. these writers of the latter group, to mature; as I wrote above, I think the pre-adolescent mode of writing is perfectly legit (Rimbaud haunts this discussion, I feel, his sonnets about seeing the erect dicks of bulls at the county fair, for instance, combined with his Catholicism). However, it seems that part of the challenge is using this erotic tendency to "do good" in a way. I think some writers = are doing this now, or are beginning to: a book I've received recently, by a = guy named Garrett Caples, takes on the lack of eroticism in what he considers the "Victorian" underpinings of the Language poets is a case in point. So here is a younger poet using performatively "vulgar" language (the poem is called "Humped by Barrett Watten") to somehow address larger social = issues, while trying to avoid what he would probably consider the castration of abstract terminology and the social control of theoretical models. I'm = sure some people consider him inarticulate, mean, or completely untalented to = do this in the way he does, but I think he's interesting precisely because = his pose (or reality, who knows when he wrote these) is of an adolescent refusing to give up the directness of his pre-discursive, poly-sexual experience while keeping his eyes on the future, which is that of social scales of meaning, and potential conformity. (Some of the poems are = really very good, a sure improvement on the "Beats", though tied to a nostalgic surrealism.) To quote Dodie on Samuel Delaney: "*Hogg* constantly compels the reader to choose one filth-laden situation *over* another, when most = of us would simply want to be rid of the entire set of experiences." In language, this "set of experiences" would be words that are deemed counter-discursive, words of "disgust," the Calibanic perhaps, but also = the discursive content when it is deemed offensive to sexual mores. So, Hogg forces us to conceive of a hierarchy of values, a structure, where once = was a shit-mound of unassimilable experience; once this structure is = conceived, what's to stop one from attaching it to the larger ethical structures we associate with democracy? I feel like I could go on with this -- wanted to mention the new law = against distributing "crush" videos, which I've read about in the Voice (I don't think cute animals should die for anyone's sexual pleasure myself) -- but this is probably too long. Attached to this email, however, is a little poem that uses the words of Rachel's text. I ran some computer processes on it; actually, all I did = was alphabetize the words in it and then construct shorter poems from them. However, various faults in the method left a cluster of non-alphabetized words at the top, and words that appear after m-dashes and slashes are not alphabetized. These processes usually display the formless subconsious of certain texts, but it's hard to imagine a subconscious to Rachel's text -- it's so "exposed" -- so this actually provides a superego for it. Change = or add to it what you will. Ok, gotta run. *** One Or Two Things I Don't Know About Her or, "Dick's Sister" (Bellamy) probably after Stacy Doris and Eugen Gomringer en gender gin half -- hilfen "in "the (and (as (ewe "fixed-gendered, handsome!" -- sad said sass. (to (tri?) (try?) (you =AE a a a A a -- abilities about abut aching ad again age -- AGIT all all all all all (alley) although am am amend an and anywhere, are are are argument: "Arthur" as "Aye!" Behoove Bellamy bellum Ben bend Bi Bi Big bike binaries/ bo/ Borders, But butt Buy Caucasians Character? chimneysweeper christ, cinder cixous. Com-round, combinatory: come come) comes -- conventional cunt curse... cycle. dear dear Dear Deer delays, delft delicious delight" delite dentist dewy--eek dick's "ding ding" (diplomatic Dodie). dread dream dream dream dream dream, dream, dream. dream? drip duh duh e'en ease eddy, efficacious. elf email emerge, endless endocrine! enter enterprised err est esteem, evenup everything experience extra exude eye farce fed fellows: female: femur fittest flaws flogs follows: Food for Freud. fustian gender gender gender gender -- gender gendered genders, -- german gill gizmo gimmick good grownup guess had hair hairiest half has hat he hearing heft height -- touch=E9 herd here: hershey hex hey Hi. his hiss hole horses hose hulk hypersaturated/ I I I I I'd I'd Id id'd iden-tiff identified ideologies. ides' if images in in in in in in in in in in in in In In In indeed! ink, inner inscriptions -- intel is issue Itty jeeze Jewel Djinn journal juice. Julia just juxtapose kiss knives know know -- the knowy =3D Kristeva - hyperidentifications land lass laws leveling lice lift like lisp live lives loaves" loll lords love love male mammary many many/ material. maternal. me me me mean member, men mends/ might mite mixed moan modify mollify moo more Moving mule mut my ned nepal nigh, night" night "-- to night. night. night? nil) ninja nipple nixed no no no no no no no -- de non. not. now Nuns o Oat oedipality, oedipality. oedipality? oedipalized oeuf of oh. oi'd. older on once one's ooze. open or organ our outside ovulate... ow owed owl own oz. pace page pal pallas part pecs penies pennies people, per perp personal/social perverse, phallic pip) place plenty ploy poesy pointing poison/special Policy polly Poly poly-gendered Polymorphous possibilities pre-gender pre-oedipal prejudgment pride pull purposes R, rare RE: ream, ream. ream? rear, regressive relationships Relay Riding, ring Rizzo. rogue. roods rote rough round. rules, sad said sans sane saturn Say say say--gender scents. Scissors scream. Script sect self. Semiphor send sensations...." sense sensual set sew Sex-sexual--to sexual. sexuality sexuality sexuality sexuality sexualized. sez shape she shuns simple sin single sister, sit sleeping sleeping sleeting slits snatch) snot. snow so some something spear special, spice staged stations...." strafe such sum sum sun swannery system talking tea tea tea? tea? tear tease, tease. terrific--hipro that's the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the think, third) thirl this tic Tide tifications Tim) time) tinny Tiny tips, tit titwillow'd, TKTK to tock tool. tripled, troubled tryst tup. uglies. um un unconscious under up. ur us --Every us. utterby vaginies, van Vatically versicle, Vertically vitamin ways. we we We we--each wear wed weenie weigh. Weiner were Wet wetter where whisper who widow wills wiper with writing wrote ya yam yon you you you you you You've youall your z z Z ---------- End Forwarded Message ---------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 18:38:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: Open Letter Call for Letters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The "Open Letter" issue of _Open Letter_ magazine CALL FOR OPEN LETTERS TO POETS Deadline: 28 February, 2000 We invite open letters to contemporary poets -- addressed across generations, aesthetic tendencies, communities, political boundaries. Letters received by 28 Feb. will be forwarded to the poets addressed; addressees will have a chance to reply and be included in our "Open Letter" _Open Letter_ Spring issue. We will consider publishing letters and responses, and letters that do not receive responses, and also poetry -- where doing so brings out a particular juncture of debate. We are interested in complicating given literary lineages, in overturning abstract categorizations of poets' methods and socio-aesthetic formations, in rediscovering and questioning received critical formulae concerning a poets work or milieu, and in bringing about new close and historical readings and critiques. In this special issue of _Open Letter_, we want to emphazize the dialogic, analytical and constructivist possibilities of address to and between poets and socio-aesthetic tendencies, by means of the open letter's form of public intimacy. Our focus, then, is on the discursive letter, rather than on the poetic form of the letter (which has recently been explored in _Chain_ 6). Our intent is to complicate how kinds of poetic "positions" articulate themselves, and are articulated, and are perceived as available and "occupied" in contemporary poetries-as aesthetic tendency, method, point of group identification, etc. A willful return to a dated technology, but a return that harkens to founding motives of Open Letter magazine: the open letter. This special issue hopes to contribute to the current forums and formats available for poetic discussion. These include the Buffalo poetics listserv (and _Poetics@_, its recent anthology), the _PhillyTalks_ newsletter, which presents poets in written dialogue (and which this project most resembles), the question/answer model of _99 Poets_ (and its predecessors, back to _L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E_), the poet's talk as collected in, e.g., _Writing/Talks_, and the poet's essay -- from _Curriculum of the Soul_ to _Poetics Journal_, _Tripwire_ or _Shark_. For inquiries, and to send your letter, please contact either of the editors: Louis Cabri lcabri@dept.english.upenn.edu Nicole Markotic markotic@ucalgary.ca 529B - 19th Ave S.W. Calgary, Alberta Canada T2S 0E3 (403) 283 - 1967 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 20:37:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: let's hear it for J H PRYNNE! / Hollo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ...but then, there's the question of whether or not one wants to lend any kind of legitimacy to the proceedings. That Pyrnne was on the list surprised me (argh! I confess! I read the New Yorker!) But given the sorry state of the New Yorker's poetry these days ("no shoes, no shirt, no status as canonical writer, no service"), why sign your name to the current marketing techniques of "big press poetry", where a little sop to the "hip" is like the salsa with turkey. The only reason I can think to bust out the vote for Prynne would be that if he made a decent showing, more might read his work. -- Simon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:23:06 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: A Spicer Story MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A Spicer Story (sort of) This last weekend I was on a walk (here in San Francisco) with friends that=20 started at Fog City Diner on the Embarcadero side of Telegraph Hill. We went= =20 up the steps to Coit Tower - took in the wonderful murals from the WPA=20 thirties (which are, among other things, a great embodiment of the art,=20 intellectual and political life of the City circa 1939) - went down the hill= =20 into North Beach, passed not far from Gino & Carlos to Washington Square Par= k=20 to take in the Fire Department sculpture/shrine (there's always a recent bee= r=20 bottle up the outstretched bronze fingers of the Fireman); went up to the SF= =20 Art Institute where, on the inside Mission Revival style patio, in progress=20 is a Hollywood style production of a film to be called "The Sculptress" - th= e=20 dark haired heroine - looking appropriately schoolish and devoted - quotes=20 her lines behind from behind a cut green-leafed tree branch held up on a rod= =20 with a metal clamp while we step into the Gallery to look at the splendid=20 Diego Rivera mural: an optimistic, worker centered vertical scaffold vision=20= -=20 including the painter and his assistants - in which City and country are=20 being rebuilt. A fiction upon a fiction. From the Art Institute we walk over the bay side of Russian Hill and tak= e=20 Polk Street down to Aquatic Park where we sit down on the edge of a low,=20 contoured sea wall that separates the narrow beach from the sidewalk, the=20 Maritime Museum building and the matching contour concrete bleachers that=20 rise and overlook the harbor which is almost entirely encircled by the curve= =20 of two breakwaters - the view a lovely kind of cement necklace with an=20 opening out to the larger bay with Angel Island and Mt. Tamalpais rising in=20 the distance through a mix of sun, clouds and fog. The beach itself is a full of grey and black, large stones, remnants fro= m=20 the construction of the sea wall and breakwater; their odd wet shapes, some=20 full of myriad angles and planes, once broken apart by steam shovel, sledge=20 hammers, and/or picks. Directly in front of us, in this relatively small=20 vista, a number of the stones are precariously balanced, one on one =96=20 sometimes there are three =96 standing end upon end, creating improbable=20 geometric figures, a feather-touch from falling over. At the front of two or= =20 three receding rows, a thin, olive complexioned man - maybe 12 feet down fro= m=20 us - is crouched on one knee, both hands gripped around a large stone; he=20 holds it up and positions the lower end over another "base" stone and begins= =20 to explore the point where a plane on one rock will match and balance itself= =20 on a plane of the other. Testing and shifting the balance, he twists and=20 tilts the upper stone - lightly scraping it on the other, moving it up and=20 down one plane, then another. If there's slippage, he pivots the rock and=20 tests it again. He never adjusts the bottom rock, as if that will be somehow= =20 to cheat or alter some basic fact. His long, slender fingers resemble those=20 of a piano player; in fact the process of working the stones is perhaps=20 comparable to tuning an instrument, listening for the perfect pitch. Three,=20 maybe five minutes pass. He is patient, very patient and he works as if=20 unquestionably convinced that a singular balance will come to figure.=20 Finally, if the activity were not so focused, one might say "as if by magic"= =20 - he finds the tilt, the balance that works; gradually he withdraws his hand= s=20 to make a complete break and comes out of his crouch to observe the combined= =20 shape of the two stones. Spontaneously we clap. "This is a gift," he speaks to us, "I've been=20 given this gift. It takes patience. It is a gift to the City." He sweeps his= =20 arm out across the Bay towards the Bay, the islands and Mt. Tamalpais. "This= =20 is a powerful place. All that energy comes right to here. To find the balanc= e=20 I just have to be patient. I had to learn patience." There is a faded dark,=20 blue bracelet design tattoo on his wrist, another tattoo up on his forearm,=20 and one on his neck - possibly a gang, prison time or both: a life time=20 totally separate and behind him. As he speaks a small waves knocks over two=20 of the sculptures. =93At the end of the day, they all come down. At night th= e=20 birds need to eat the creatures in the sand without getting injured.=94 He t= hen=20 asks, "Would someone like to pick a rock? I can work with anything I can=20 lift." One of our friends picks a rock and the process begins again. =20 In Peter Gizzi's excellent Afterword to his book, The House That Jack Built,= =20 The Collected Lectures of Jack Spicer, he describes the late poet in and=20 around North Beach, including his usual afternoon stroll to Aquatic Park - a= =20 route not dissimilar to the one we have taken. Here, if he did not meet or=20 gather with other friends, he sat to listen in solitude to the Giants=20 baseball game on a transistor radio. This Park one of those places - an=20 urban version of a sacred grove - where power gathers and takes focus. A=20 place to be open, to take in =93the dictation,=94 those powerful forces from= the=20 outside, that could invade the poet=92s body anywhere, anytime. To be on the= =20 ready - note book and pen on hand =96 ready to move the words, one by one, i= nto=20 right location. Words, those awkward objects not indifferent from these=20 stones ("the furniture"), their awkward planes and angles, a debris of=20 intractable syllables; words, to which the poet patiently listens, tilts, an= d=20 pivots until they somehow miraculously conjoin and fit into jagged lines:=20 gravitationally balanced and loaded. Poet and Sculptor - both tested and=20 scarred - strikingly similar and grateful to take the pitches from the=20 "outside." Those forces crossing the Bay out of a vague horizon of cloud,=20 sunlight, mountain and island. The sculptor - as in Spicer=92s After Lorca -= =20 the poet=92s correspondent: another time, another maker: ...Things do not connect; they correspond. That is what makes it possibl= e=20 for a poet to translate real objects, to bring them across language as easil= y=20 as he can bring them across time. That tree you saw in Spain is a tree I=20 could never have seen in California, that lemon has a different smell and a=20 different taste, BUT the answer is this -- every place has a real object to= =20 =93correspond=94 with your real object...(perhaps as unapparently as that le= mon=20 corresponds to this piece of seaweed) and, in turn, some future poet will=20 write something which =93corresponds=94 to them. That is how we dead men wr= ite=20 to each other. - each new sculpture, a new translation. A process continuous. Cheers, Stephen Vincent ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 15:25:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Thelonius Monk / Holman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had to reformat this message. Chris ----------------- Original message (ID=605CCA66) (286 lines) ------------------ From: Nuyopoman@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 23:53:53 EST Hey folks, check the vibe on this: Monday the 13th, at the Knitting Factory - 10 pm until 1 a.m. Thelonius Monk's Epistrophy done '90's style.... Sorry about the recent flurry of e-mails, but as they say, 'tis the season..= . The Epistrophy Evening: mad flavaz in ya zone - more Subliminal Minded material for you to savour... so folks this is a benefit for A Gathering of the Tribes, an institution that has supported avant garde culture for a while, so check the vibe, so as always it's s situation representing a whole bunch of scenarios: A Guy Called Gerald, Samuel Delaney, David Hammons, Steve Canon and yours truly present: film, literature, and music - here's the 411: Music: The Playas: London Afro-Futurist Avant Garde drum n bass veteran A Guy Called Gerald versus Dj Spooky that Subliminal Kid and legendary free jazz pianist Matthew Shipp and the event has some special sneak preview of new material from David Hammons, probably one of the most important African American artists of the last 20 years who has been working on a Dj vinyl project... Film: and and a film entitled "The Lure of the Ancestors" a documentary by Olumide, who worked on the award winning film "Slam" that featured Saul William and Soundtrack by Dj Spooky, on the linkages of Yoruba and Yoruba influenced percussion and American polyrhythms (Baba Olatunji, Abiodun Oyewole, CYnthia Turner, Eric Bobo, etc etc ...) Words: and then there's the people reading: legendary science fiction writer Samuel Delaney with new material Steve Canon, the director of A Gathering of the Tribes Edwin Torres David Henderson Iris A. Stacyann Chin Carl Hancock Rux Mariposa plus special guests... tix: $10 - all proceeds from the event go to A Gathering of the Tribes Epistrophy was what Theloniuous Monk used to call his style of thinking and playing, but most who check out the word in the dictionary will simply find that it means "return from an abnormal mental state." Anybody who's checked out "A Gathering of the Tribes," an independent non-profit magazine that has been one of the best Lower East Side and East Village journals of poetry and art for a long while, and host of alot of art shows relating jazz and contemporary culture, will see that it's an arts organization that has allowed alot of people to get their ideas out into the world, and turn their backs, like Theloniuous Monk, to the conventional music, poetry, and arts scenes. Basically this is a benefit for the magazine and arts space that's associated with. The main theme of the evening will be a duo between internationally renowned experimental jazz pianist Matthew Shipp and sonic chaos in the form of tunrtable terror from yours truly, downtown enfant terrible Dj Spooky that Subliminal Kid and London legendary drum n bass innovator A Guy Called gerald. In addition to these artists, highly respected artist David hammons is previewing some of his new sounds from a sound project he's been working on, and one of the most important science fiction writers working in the field over the last several decades, Samuel Delaney will be reading from some of his more recent books. And critically acclaimed poets, Steve Cannon (who runs Tribes), and David Henderson will be reading. Expect an evening of special guests to make apearances as well because everyone from the jazz musicians and performing artists have worked with Tribes in the past to younger more hip-hop and electronica influenced artists will be making showing up. All proceeds go to a Gathering of the Tribes. Knitting factory, main space, December 12th, tickets, $10 more info: www.djspooky.com or info@tribes.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 15:28:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:__poets_&_our_clich=E9s_/_Lang?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message came to the administrative account. Chris -- Date: 12/9/99, 8:32 AM -0500 From: "Doug Lang" I thought I'd missed something here, so I checked with Tom Raworth and learned that this response was to a private message, not to a post to this list. If this was in error, I'm sure we can all relate to that. What is unfortunate is that Tom's original message (which he forwarded to me, after my inquiry to him) was poorly represented, and in a meanspirited manner. It's even more unfortunate that no acknowledgment has been made of the error to the forum in which it was made. Doug Lang david bromige wrote: > To amplify (and to clarify, i hope) my response to tom raworth's > post : when i used the cliche "in war, innocent people do get hurt", tom > transferred it from where he got it (a highly contextualized situation, as > he initially acknowledged, in which "hurt" is economic) to images of > refugees being bombed... however he got down that slippery slope, he then > employed the cliche "slippery slope" to warn me lest i lay aside my pen and > pick up my uzi. > > But when i heard tom's anxiety as encoded in "s.s.", ," i thought of "grave > misgivings", a bleeding-heart liberal cliche excuse for doing nothing, and > even of "it wouldnt be prudent," a fascist excuse for doing nothing. tom > conjured me leading the easily misled, from economic sanctions to > blitzkrieg; hence his "slippery slope." but i have no further ambitions > concerning czeckoslovakia, except to learn how to spell it. i am > surprised to have the "slippery slope" sanctions imposed upon me, by a man > who must have had as many friends as i, imprisoned by those authorities on > marijuana who know it always leads to heroin. > > Anyway, let me say further re economic sanctions against seattle that, as > david antin says, in approving the notion, it will be hard to get the word > out. agreed, so we dont expect this action to bring catastrophic hardship > to any one person. a reduction, maybe, of 3% in annual profits. but the > effect is cumulative, and what we hope for is sufficient reduction in > seattle's income to have a negative impact on their budget, so that certain > "essential" services--we suggest, the police--have to be cut back. it is > the police, first and foremost, who need to be taught a lesson in > restraint. > > But too, it is the city adminstrators who slip the police's leashes, who > have to learn the hard way, and when big stores lose 3%, thats a lot of > latte, and a corresponding increase in pressure on city hall to consider > the consequences of police violence. > > The purpose of this, as i understand it, is not primarily punitive but > minatory---to prevent future demonstrations from being clobbered by city > hall in other venues. > > i like david antin's suggestion re microsoft. of course, already existing > product from m.s has to be considered as grandfathered in. but for the next > year, it wd be great if bill gates (a mighty fan of the w.t.o.) received > less income from us outraged & nugatory chickens at the far end of the > coop. > > db ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:03:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marla Jernigan Subject: Inspired by the Wake MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1681692777-944762639=:29484" --0-1681692777-944762639=:29484 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Here is a piece of writing that I contributed to last night and which I thought would be fun to share with this list. It is untitled; Torcht of evol meroar lube gnots unlight und gotta be thistledine done zhe hynge vise ahms hex thee cancan vhat nobobodi lyk'd. Careful lubed ghosts got mexican in error or meteors me. Back come the ferrous sweed, hasty and seem, hoo she had now have there into bead. The beard about cash, an introductory exploding mint from Japan in the form of the serial. ------ Midnite from Japan. ------ Cabled box cinch and hairy. The exponent head. In deremy or thriller sun off on his luck in movie over movie. ------ Cahnt reem'ember, I love zomiees'... ------ That's excellent... Back comes the Lugosi sweed (sword) . . . Raspander nudge in the arksoul hunch of hind. Deliquesium ermine harse pinch the tempt on a fizzle life. ------ Scmoke, Schpinge phai ondler cankersauce vid de dwarphs, degeneraohm, aye, hrit, hri, um. Faeck. On of loid fan sight senancy. I feen so sense dine. Even pie might well thud midget for me, I susperect. I dunt think in wake. Do shoo do. On nyghts when we I. Ressently, some suddent on my wurt patterns unnimble and at linth. Rilly nix. I eed them. In jinx al ear. ------ Do. This was written last night, my first time visiting the atlanta poetry group. The evening plan was to take turns reading from Finnegans Wake and see what developed. There was a lot of conversation, and the readings were a lot of fun too. I'll admit that I've always been somewhat scared of this book but after hearing all the different voices reading it last night I'm excited to try and read now. I've also never written collaboratively before and so this was a new experience for me. Having Joyce in my ear in the hours preceding the writing certainly contributed to writing like I've never written before. The authors of the piece above were James Sanders, John Lowther, Mark Prejsnar and myself. It's too bad that the other folks in the group, Karen Phillips, Dana Lustig and Ted Ian, had to leave before we got around to writing anything, I would have been curious to see what they would have contributed to the piece. Thanks to them all for having me and I hope that this list will be amused by the writing above. Sincerely, Marla --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping. --0-1681692777-944762639=:29484 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Here is a piece of writing that I contributed to last night and which I thought would be fun to share with this list. It is untitled;

 

Torcht of evol meroar lube gnots unlight und gotta be thistledine done zhe hynge vise ahms hex thee cancan vhat nobobodi lyk'd. Careful lubed ghosts got mexican in error or meteors me. Back come the ferrous sweed, hasty and seem, hoo she had now have there into bead. The beard about cash, an introductory exploding mint from Japan in the form of the serial.

------ Midnite from Japan.

------ Cabled box cinch and hairy.

The exponent head. In deremy or thriller sun off on his luck in movie over movie.

------ Cahnt reem'ember, I love zomiees'...

------ That's excellent...

Back comes the Lugosi sweed (sword) . . . Raspander nudge in the arksoul hunch of hind. Deliquesium ermine harse pinch the tempt on a fizzle life.

------ Scmoke, Schpinge phai ondler cankersauce vid de dwarphs, degeneraohm, aye, hrit, hri, um. Faeck. On of loid fan sight senancy. I feen so sense dine. Even pie might well thud midget for me, I susperect. I dunt think in wake. Do shoo do. On nyghts when we I. Ressently, some suddent on my wurt patterns unnimble and at linth. Rilly nix. I eed them.

In jinx al ear.

------ Do.

 

This was written last night, my first time visiting the atlanta poetry group.  The evening plan was to take turns reading from Finnegans Wake and see what developed.  There was a lot of conversation, and the readings were a lot of fun too. I'll admit that I've always been somewhat scared of this book but after hearing all the different voices reading it last night I'm excited to try and read now.

I've also never written collaboratively before and so this was a new experience for me.  Having Joyce in my ear in the hours preceding the writing certainly contributed to writing like I've never written before. 

The authors of the piece above were James Sanders, John Lowther, Mark Prejsnar and myself. It's too bad that the other folks in the group, Karen Phillips, Dana Lustig and Ted Ian, had to leave before we got around to writing anything, I would have been curious to see what they would have contributed to the piece.

Thanks to them all for having me and I hope that this list will be amused by the writing above.

Sincerely,

Marla

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



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--0-1681692777-944762639=:29484-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 14:40:41 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Vote for Prynne Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed The reason to vote for Prynne is to demonstrate the difference in quality between what is being written these days and what gets published in the New Yorker itself. Prynne, in this sense, could be any one of us. It's fine that it's him. Ron Silliman ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:48:55 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: sociology of bookstores In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" grolier's does now categorize by not only race but ethnicity, nationality, sexuality, etc. i asked louisa about this and she said it helps the books move more quickly, ie. sales are better. for an idependent bookstore eking out an existence (and th eonly bookstore nationally to specialize exclusively in poetry) is makes sense to make a decision based on what will help the books sell. Moreover, on the subject of "working class poetry" as a category, that day may yet come. there's nothing eternal or unchanging about bookstore marketing categories. At 8:59 AM -0500 12/10/99, Mark Prejsnar wrote: >Simon DeDeo writes: > > >"The way the local poetry bookstore here, for example, organizes its >books is by race. > > Now, to a certain extent this ordering makes sense. But it does >seem clear to me that I would never walk in to a bookstore and find a >shelf "working class poetry", or if I did, I'd know immediately that it >was a conscious decision on the part of the manager rather than an >acceptance of a particular, commonly accepted mode of putting the bricks >in the boxes." > >***************************** > >The overall shape of poetry in bookstores, tells us some interesting >things about the current shape of culture. I have not seen too many >stores that "organize their books by race," and the idea is pretty >fascinating. When i lived in Boston, the magnificent poetry bookshop, >Groliers, had essentially two sequences: almost all books of poetry, >organized alphabetically by author, and a separate sequence taking up >about three shelves, labelled Language Poetry. As the Boston poet Joe >Torra pointed out to the owner, this was surely a major ghettoization kind >of move, and represented a sharp (albeit ambiguous) statement.... > > >I've just noticed Simon is writing from a Hahhvahd account: it isn't the >current arrangement at Groliers you're referring to is it? > >--m. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 14:44:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerrold Shiroma Subject: Re: sociology of bookstores MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, Borders for one (where, I admit, I work) arranges literature via literature, with subsections (i.e. numbering systems for inventory purposes) for "African-American" literature, as well as another subsection (which is actually a subsection of the general psychology section) for Gay-Lesbian literature (which includes fiction as well as poetry...&, on a more interesting note, Gertrude Stein, Oscar Wilde, Jeanette Winterson, are included in the general literature section, while Robert Duncan, Jack Spicer, etc. are included in the general poetry section...although Justin Chin & the one book by Camille Roy are both in the Gay/Lesbian section). No other race (i.e. Asian-American, Chicano, Native American, and so on) &/or group are represented as such in the literature section. -----Original Message----- From: Mark Prejsnar To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 11:56 AM Subject: sociology of bookstores >Simon DeDeo writes: > > >"The way the local poetry bookstore here, for example, organizes its >books is by race. > > Now, to a certain extent this ordering makes sense. But it does >seem clear to me that I would never walk in to a bookstore and find a >shelf "working class poetry", or if I did, I'd know immediately that it >was a conscious decision on the part of the manager rather than an >acceptance of a particular, commonly accepted mode of putting the bricks >in the boxes." > >***************************** > >The overall shape of poetry in bookstores, tells us some interesting >things about the current shape of culture. I have not seen too many >stores that "organize their books by race," and the idea is pretty >fascinating. When i lived in Boston, the magnificent poetry bookshop, >Groliers, had essentially two sequences: almost all books of poetry, >organized alphabetically by author, and a separate sequence taking up >about three shelves, labelled Language Poetry. As the Boston poet Joe >Torra pointed out to the owner, this was surely a major ghettoization kind >of move, and represented a sharp (albeit ambiguous) statement.... > > >I've just noticed Simon is writing from a Hahhvahd account: it isn't the >current arrangement at Groliers you're referring to is it? > >--m. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 19:32:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Carter Subject: Re: "Mirage #4/Period[ical]" #89, Atlanta issue In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On Wed, 1 Dec 1999 21:27:13, Kevin Killian wrote: >Hi, it's Kevin Killian. Dodie Bellamy and I have turned over the new >issue of our zine "Mirage #4/Period[ical]" to the Atlanta Writers >Group about whom we had been quite curious and now the issue (#89!!) >is ready. Maybe it will open eyes all over the world about the >interesting new writing scene in Atlanta. Anyhow, if anyone on this >list would like a copy please back-channel me and I'll send you one. >Please don't send money, this is a free offer and just send your >address instead (unless you think I know it by heart). No solicitors >will call... > >Kevin K. Kevin, and Dodie, thanks so much, just got it in the mail today. looks good from the glimpse can't wait t' get into it. thanks to you for your graciousness and thanks unto the poets for theirs. Daniel ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 19:48:20 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jill Stengel Subject: december and a+bend press MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dear friends of poetry, there will not be a december reading at bluebar for the poetry reading and publication series synapse. the series will resume on the second sunday in january. happy holidays, and thank you for a great year,** jill stengel a+bend press ps-for the holidays: free shipping on book orders postmarked by dec 31,1999 (sorry, not valid for institutions) ** there is no institutional or corporate support, funding, "guidance," et cetera for a+bend press books or events. without your involvement, and, of course, the involvement of the authors, there would be no series. i send a large--a vast--thank you to the kindly souls who have attended readings, bought books, sent occasional donations, and put the word out regarding the readings and the books. i am much appreciative of your interest and your support. the a+bend press 1999 catalog: book one history, possibilities: Jill Stengel book two SAYING NO. 3 Jenna Roper Harmon book three a s f a r a s Jen Hofer book four Genealogy Kathy Lou Schultz book five 22 Katherine Spelling book six (forthcoming) Jamen Howe book seven (forthcoming) m. mara-ann book eight Spelt Susan Gevirtz and Myung Mi Kim book nine Eve Doe : Prior to Landscape Elizabeth Treadwell book ten definite articles Sarah Anne Cox book eleven Waltzing the Map Standard Schaefer book twelve extraneous roses Lisa Kovaleski book thirteen Room Dana Teen Lomax book fourteen (forthcoming) Lisa Lubasch book fifteen Body Auguries Rose Najia book sixteen we build mountains Jo Ann Wasserman book seventeen Dearly, Rachel Levitsky [note: i am not taking advanced orders for titles listed as "(forthcoming)"] thank you again, jill stengel a+bend press ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:03:06 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerrold Shiroma Subject: Small Press Publications List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The deadline for this week's Small Press Publications List @ duration is this Friday (12-17). All publishers wishing to have their publications listed should send info to jerrold@durationpress.com. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 01:18:23 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathy Lou Schultz Subject: Re: CLASS (fwd) I disagree that Katie's post was "very mild." And I do not think that she "simply expresses a point of view" as much as she dismisses an alternate point of view. I believe the main point of her post was "shut up about poetry and class issues." And I have yet to hear her support her assertions. The following is an observation that lacks explanation or supporting argumentation: "Of course language can't be seperated [sic] from any of those things. They're made out of language. Poems are made out of language, too. But it just doesn't follow that poems are made of politics, class, etc". I believe that attempting to divorce writing from its social/political contexts is dangerous. The act of pretending that writing isn't political results in support of dominant power relations. It results in sticking one's head in the sand, in effect saying "don't talk about things like racism that make me uncomfortable." I also think it results in misreadings and shallow readings. I return to the example of Erica Hunt. An analysis of Hunt's that only concerned itself with "form, structure" etc. (as if those things themselves weren't political!) would result in a very uniformed, very cursory reading of this important experimental poet. But if you find discussions of class and writing "boring," I probably can't help you here. I would suggest however that the privilege to ignore class issues is just that: a privilege. I believe Taylor Brady's poetic response constituted a useful explication of these issues. I also find it really interesting that suddenly concern with a working class poetics is "political hegemony/ correctness)". I am constantly personally attacked for raising class issues in the context of writing -- when and where this discourse became "hegemonic" certainly eludes me. Kathy Lou Schultz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 20:49:46 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jill Stengel Subject: oops...double oops... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit re december and a+bend press: while i was writing that big email, i was getting all choked up about how nice everyone's been, and i forgot to include some pertinent info: jill stengel a+bend press 3862 21st st sf, ca 94114 bluebar is in san francisco thanks, jill ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 15:34:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Quasha & Stein at St. Marks / Quasha MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="==========206505786==========" --==========206505786========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message came to the administrative account. Chris -- Date: 12/11/99, 12:40 AM -0800 From: "George Quasha" George Quasha & Charles Stein reading at St. Marks Church on the Bowerie, NYC Wednesday, December 15th, 1999 at 8 PM GQ will read from his recent book AINU DREAMS and from forthcoming books, IN NO TIME and THE PREVERBS OF TELL: NEWS TORQUED FROM UNDERTIME. CS will read from his ongoing THEFORESTFORTHETREES, a selection of which appeared as THE HAT-RACK TREE. NOTE: GQ's scheduled exhibition of AXIAL STONES and reading of AXIAL POEMS at Westbeth, previously to open on December 9th, 1999, has been postponed till Friday, January 28th, 1999, 4-9 PM. The works of precariously balanced stones will be exhibited in the Westbeth Gallery for one week along with the paintings of Spencer Holst and Beate Wheeler. The reading will follow the opening at 9 PM. --==========206505786========== Content-Type: message/rfc822; name="Quasha & Stein at St. Marks" Return-Path: Delivered-To: poetics@mailhub.acsu.buffalo.edu Received: (qmail 8265 invoked from network); 11 Dec 1999 05:40:57 -0000 Received: from mail2.acsu.buffalo.edu (128.205.7.4) by mailhub with SMTP; 11 Dec 1999 05:40:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 22874 invoked by uid 40481); 11 Dec 1999 05:40:56 -0000 Delivered-To: poetics@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Received: (qmail 22830 invoked from network); 11 Dec 1999 05:40:55 -0000 Received: from themis.host4u.net (216.71.64.20) by mail2 with SMTP; 11 Dec 1999 05:40:55 -0000 Received: from stationhill.org (10030.webjogger.net [208.29.192.30]) by themis.host4u.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA09105 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 23:40:37 -0600 Message-ID: <38520E1B.572B751A@stationhill.org> Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 00:40:59 -0800 From: George Quasha Organization: Station Hill / Barrytown, Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Poetics List Subject: Quasha & Stein at St. Marks Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="==========206494987==========" --==========206494987========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George Quasha & Charles Stein reading at St. Marks Church on the Bowerie, NYC Wednesday, December 15th, 1999 at 8 PM GQ will read from his recent book AINU DREAMS and from forthcoming books, IN NO TIME and THE PREVERBS OF TELL: NEWS TORQUED FROM UNDERTIME. CS will read from his ongoing THEFORESTFORTHETREES, a selection of which appeared as THE HAT-RACK TREE. NOTE: GQ's scheduled exhibition of AXIAL STONES and reading of AXIAL POEMS at Westbeth, previously to open on December 9th, 1999, has been postponed till Friday, January 28th, 1999, 4-9 PM. The works of precariously balanced stones will be exhibited in the Westbeth Gallery for one week along with the paintings of Spencer Holst and Beate Wheeler. The reading will follow the opening at 9 PM. --==========206494987========== Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=iso-8859-1; name="gquasha.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for George Quasha begin:vcard n:Quasha;George tel;fax:(914) 758-8163 tel;work:(914) 758-5840 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://www.stationhill.org org:Station Hill / Barrytown, Ltd. adr:;;124 Station Hill Road;Barrytown;NY;12507;USA version:2.1 email;internet:gquasha@stationhill.org title:Publisher note;quoted-printable:Station Hill Press/Barrytown, Ltd.=0D=0A or The Institute for Publishing Arts, Inc.=0D=0ABarrytown, NY 12507=0D=0A=0D=0AOffice: (914) 758-5840=0D=0AFax: 758-8163 (publishing) and (914) 758-9838 (GQ direct)=0D=0A=0D=0Ahttp://www.stationhill.org=0D=0Ae-mail: gquasha@stationhill.org=0D=0ABook Orders to Station Hill/Barrytown: (888) 758-0610 (Credit Card)=0D=0A end:vcard --==========206494987==========-- --==========206505786==========-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 15:39:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Prynne / Hollo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This message came to the administrative account. Chris -- Date: 12/11/99, 2:13 AM +0000 From: JDHollo@aol.com Simon DeDeo writes: =93The only reason I can think to bust out the vote for Prynne would be = that if he made a decent showing, more might read his work.=94 Indeed, it is the ONLY reason! So, let=92s go for it. Anselm Hollo ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 15:39:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Adios / Hollo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message came to the administrative account. Chris -- Date: 12/11/99, 2:13 AM +0000 From: JDHollo@aol.com Edward Dorn, great poet and spirit, passed away peacefully, surrounded by loved ones, at approximately 10:30 p.m. Rocky Mountain Time Friday night, 10 November 1999. "And we are all there together / time will wave as willows do / and adios will be truly, yes," (Dorn, "If It Should Ever Come"). ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 15:57:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Edward Dorn, 1929-1999 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The death of Ed Dorn represents a great loss, if not unexpected. I did not know him, though I found his work delightful and important; out of respect for his friends, I will offer only this poem from his book -Geography- (London: Fulcrum Press, 1965). Chris -- Mourning Letter, March 29, 1963 No hesitation would stay me from weeping this morning for the miners of Hazard Kentucky. The mine owners' extortionary skulls whose eyes are diamonds don't float down the rivers, as they should, of the flood The miners, cold starved, driven from work, in their homes float though and float on the ribbed ships of their frail bodies, Oh, go letter, keep my own misery close to theirs associate me with no other honor. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 00:57:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerrold Shiroma Subject: Peter Ganick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone have the e-mail for Peter Ganick? Much thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 11:27:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: rebecca wolff Subject: Re: objection to New Yorker In-Reply-To: <199912110509.AAA22584@halo.angel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It seems to me that this same argument could be used to suggest that affirmative action laws should be abolished. Change is slow, nay, and happens in increments like this, at least this is how I imagine this happened: Susan Wheeler, due to proximity and pedigree, gets invited to be one of the judges. Susan Wheeler is a cool woman and and interesting poet who is interested in interesting poetry. So she nominates an interesting poet. Why not support this tiny ray of light? Picture tiny ray of light through chink in the wall as preface to huge block of wall falling out to reveal lots of light. You'll feel better than with the salsa/turkey analogy. Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 20:37:19 -0500 From: Simon DeDeo Subject: let's hear it for J H PRYNNE! / Hollo ...but then, there's the question of whether or not one wants to lend any kind of legitimacy to the proceedings. That Pyrnne was on the list surprised me (argh! I confess! I read the New Yorker!) But given the sorry state of the New Yorker's poetry these days ("no shoes, no shirt, no status as canonical writer, no service"), why sign your name to the current marketing techniques of "big press poetry", where a little sop to the "hip" is like the salsa with turkey. The only reason I can think to bust out the vote for Prynne would be that if he made a decent showing, more might read his work. -- Simon ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 08:05:07 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: Ed Dorn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ed Dorn died ,at home in Denver, December 10, 1999. He was a man of ferocious intelligence and great wit. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 14:20:58 -0000 Reply-To: suantrai@iol.ie Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "L. MacMahon and T.R. Healy" Subject: extempore on two lines from Dorn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Tensile Strength of Last Winter's Icicles a cool head takes time tossed the dude but a cool time gives you head parried an equine if unexploded blonde O Miss Polly give me an infinity you can count on three tenths and three hundredths and three thousandths or at least a decent tattoo (this was before she attempted to use his retinas) careful! that ain't no thing! (at which stroke she demanded back the negatives) just then there was the sound of something natural who's there? ego amiable jus' wee me said the cheery sower trust a German to write Being on Time said the man three two one this is for your sadly missing heart Randolph Healy Visit the Sound Eye website at: http://indigo.ie/~tjac/sound_eye_hme.htm or find more Irish writing at: http://www.nd.edu/~ndr/issues/ndr7/contents.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 02:00:54 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Morte d' Ed MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; x-mac-creator=4D4F5353; x-mac-type=54455854; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Estrella’s Prophecies #18 for E.D. Upon year end, reflect over the home of the brave and meatloaf specials, however shallowly. Since potential diminishes and your body has joined the recession think of bygone figures. Fabulous Johnson. Promise to do something that would make you a better person if you did. Dick Van Dyke. Even though European Commission inspectors raid and close Coca-Cola offices for dominant market position abuse, for you, this year, I’m dreaming of a white Christmas, joy to the world and a Super America. For an American piece I will reflect more. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 19:15:18 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Susan M. Schultz" Subject: Re: question about the 1950s MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm going to be doing a directed reading with a graduate student in history next semester who is working on the 1950s, especially on car ads and anti-materialist backlashes. Any suggestions you folks can make about relevant poetry and also 1950s culture and counter-culture is most welcome. Susan Schultz University of Hawai`i ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 07:03:10 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: poems & new music in RealAudio Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi folks, Just a short note to let y'all know that this week's Mappings, my weekly online new music "radio" show features pieces with texts, including collaborations between chris cheek & Sianed Jones, Jerome Rothenberg & George Lewis, text-sound piecs by & performed by Jaap Blonk, as well as some more new music-oriented works by, Joseph Zitt, Nicolas Collins and Rene Lussier. Available all week at: . Bests, Herb -- Herb Levy NEW MAILING ADDRESS: P O Box 9369 Forth Wort, TX 76147 NEW PHONE: 817 377-2983 same old e-mail: herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 14:33:44 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: atlanta poets group/grolier bookshop MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit uhm, having dissed the apg in an earlier post, i thought i should say, having just read most of the mirage #4 atlanta anthology, that it certainly has some interesting work-- among other things: a couple of cool collage poems by james sanders; randy prunty's funny "gender rinse" and dana lisa lustig's faux-naive "st. francis . . . " about the grolier, if your idea of it is, say, that of the clubby little bookshop brad gooch describes in his o'hara bio--forget it. no browsing is allowed--you come in with the name of the book you want, the owner retrieves it for you--and then you're told to leave. a draconian policy necessitated by, what i was told by the owner herself, was the experimentalist poets' addiction to ripping off books. any book or zine w/ merely the whiff of the av-garde is now verbotten. perhaps the owner has relented since i was there last. it's hard to think of her keeping up this policy indefinitely. but i wouldn't know-- as someone who used to drop quite a lot of lettuce at the grolier every week--i will never set foot inside there again. jacques ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 10:32:48 -0500 Reply-To: BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: A Chapter on Language Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For anyone who's curious about my book in spite of its recent panning, here's a chapter from it. It discusses poetry that is, or is like, what is commonly called language poetry. Comments welcome. --Bob Grumman CHAPTER NINETEEN = =02Xenolinguistic Poetry =02 Language poetry in my poetics is a form of what I = eventually came to call =15xenolinguistic poetry=15--that = is, it is poetry whose syntax or train of thought is = linguistically strange to an extreme. It was the = last kind of poetry I was able to come to terms = with--if, indeed, I =15have=15 come to terms with it. For = years only my desire to comprehend =15all=15 poetry kept = me going back to it, trying to appreciate it--even = to the extent of reading the famous primer on it, = the almost impenetrable =15The L=3DA=3DN=3DG=3DU=3DA=3DG=3DE Book=15. I = didn't start getting much of a fix on the stuff, = however, until I came on Crag Hill's =15DICT=15, or the = four pages or so of that work that were published in = =15Red Lines, No. 7=15. = illustration I couldn't transmit cybernetically One characteristic of the =15DICT=15 excerpt that helped = was that its poems are all less than ten words in = length, and thus easy to get hold of. But what most = helped me was that it has a unifying, underlying = framework--the bones of a dictionary. What does = this accomplish? For one thing, it provides an = alphabetic rationale for the arrangement of the = sequence's subjects. It alerts us as well to the = fact that we are to be concerned with spellings and = definitions. With fundamentals of language, too, = and probably (by extension) fundamentals of = Everything. At the same time, it surrounds us with = an ambience of authority, of exact rules--something = secure to roam freely out of, to laugh at contrasts = to, to deconstruct fearlessly from, and so forth. = All this would mean little if the poems or stanzas = of =15DICT=15 weren't effective in themselves, but they = are. Take, for instance, "ABASE," the very first = word of the sequence. It is an almost perfect = choice for its position for the following reasons: = (1) it begins the sequence's journey in the proper = place alphabetically (i.e., at ABA); (2) it begins = it structurally appropriately at "a base" and (3) it = begins it philosophically appropriately at a tearing = down, at a kind of reduction (of rank or estimation, = my pocket dictionary has it). In short, Hill in one = word tells us what he's up to (overtly, at least): = a reduction back to first principals. = The next word--on a line by itself--is "meaning." = So now we know we are to be concerned with the = reduction (or abasing) of meaning. And with basic = meanings. Perhaps also with gross (base) meanings. = =7FA line later the non-word "=15ABCD=15" appears. Our = alphabetical trip is starting--in pre-meaning, also = in the elements, in the letters which precede = wording; in the base. One thinks, too, of baby = talk, and a child's first experiences with letters = and words. = On the third line is the phrase, "distinct A- horizons." I don't know what an A-horizon is (in = the real world) or if there is such a thing. But = the phrase, in coming just after "ABCD," underscores = orderliness, officialness, even (horizontal) = straightness. And the "A-nature" of the words to = follow is announced, or emphasized, as well as the = fact that we are starting at A, with nothing but "A- horizons" visible ahead of us. = Then: "abr abbr," or (possibly) the word, = "abbreviation," abbreviated (twice)--after = misstarting. The journey which started with "ABCD," = then was interrupted by "distinct A-horizons," has = now advanced one step from formal letters to an = awkward, shaky first step into "word-ness"--which is = abbreviated to its smallest state. The alphabetical = sequence is maintained, too, as we go from ABA and = ABC to ABR--then back slightly to ABB. = A pun of sorts comes next, "state of =02be=02ing" = (my emphasis) suddenly cropping up in this "b" = section of the A's. It keeps the reader's attention = on such philosophical concerns as the relation of = meaning to being. Alone in the line under "state of = being" is an X. It forms a sudden center, and is = also a loud retort, to all the A's. It suggests = some idea of a distinct state of being, too. We're = still at a kind of starting point, but now at a = first essence (an unknown quantity) as well as at a = first letter. But we're also at a "layer of = substance," according to the next line. = Because the lineation forces attention on the text = one word or syllable at a time (for the most part), = I again spin off any mainline into a thought of = "substance" as "sub-stance," or of being not yet in = a stance. Preliminariness holds. Incompleteness, = too, as the truncatedness of the next two entries, = "cordant note" and "ately released," indicates. "cordant" makes me think of discordance, of course, = particularly in such an assortment of not closely = interrelated entries, but then I am struck with the = pleasant opposite to discordance, "cordance"--core- dance. Is the X the note (and "core") referred to? = "ace" then intrudes and its quotidian definition as = a playing card whose face is marked "with one large = pip." This is followed by a line that doesn't = compute for me but is nice. The first entry in =15DICT=15 = which uses punctuation, it consists of a colon = followed by a space and then the word, "plants." = Or: a sense of expectancy, followed by a word = representing the ultimate natural realization of = expectations. = "plants" is repeated on the following line, with a = space after it--and, finally, a semi-colon, to = represent a sense of semi-completion. All this = might be a contrast to the mechanical, unAprillike = nature of the dictionary which is its field, or a = reference to the semantic breeding ground that a = dictionary is, or who knows what. Which makes me = suddenly recall, as I write this, that a pip is a = seed. So the flow from the ace to plants is not = illogical. Ah, another connection: a pip begins the = "deck" of spring as an ace begins a deck of = cards. . . . And as a's begin the alphabet. So = many similar and contrasting games are thus caught = here abudding! = And so Hill's sequence flows on, making the = dictionary into a playground, and filling the reader = with the feel of creativity, of words being born, = and meanings, and realities. . . . Look, it = proclaims--only look closely at the world, or at the = best lists of the names for its contents: the world = is alive, and rich! = Another of my successes as an aesthcipient of = language poetry occurred when I got a copy of =15In the =15 =15American Tree=15, an anthology of language poetry = edited by Ron Silliman. It involved some poems by = Robert Grenier, the first of which, just six lines = in length, reads as follows: = ... a long walk a long walk a long walk a long walk along About this I wrote in an issue of the =15Score Review=15 = as follows: = My first reaction, typical for me, was = dismissive. All I saw was trivial repetition of = trivial words for no good reason. Maybe the = poem was of slight value for the way the = boringness of its diction metaphored the = boringness of its subject matter, "a long = walk," but it did nothing more worthwhile than that for me. So I went on to Grenier's next poem, "Wintry," = predisposed to dismiss it as well. For a while = that was easy: all it seemed to consist of were = juvenile word plays like a rhyme of "icy" with = "nicely," and some foolery with the way the = Germans and Norwegians in the text pronounce, = "well" as "vell." But I had to admit that, = despite the brevity of its lines and strophes, = it got an ambience of some northern American = countryside and its down-to-earth but pleasant = German/Scandinavian farmer-types going through = me. Then I turned the page. There the poem = ended in three strophes: = snow blue eyes ice blue rocks rocks rocks of getting dark I was at once converted to Grenier's way with = words. = One thing I liked was the way the text, after = saying pretty much nothing but, "Oh well," "Oh = vell," "I don't know," and "Yah" for five = strophes, suddenly zeroes down to two kinds of = blue, soft and hard, both of them vitally = palpable after the mundaneness of what's = preceded. Both, too, are extremely in context, = the earlier strophes having discussed winter to = set up snow and ice, and shown a Nordic accent = to set up blue eyes. = = Something else happens: eyes are, through = parallelism, implicitly compared to rocks. = They can thus be taken as being mineral and = insensitive, and enduring; or the rocks can be = thought of as being Nature's eyes. Humans with = winter in them, rocks with awareness in = them=FA.=FA.=FA. and all the scene as elemental as = the lines describing it. = The capper to the poem for me, though, is the = poem's final strophe. There the peculiar = locution, "rocks of getting dark," presents us = with rocks that are somehow comprised of the = act of getting dark. Darkness is stealing into = a locale and, apparently, solidifying there = like water into ice, rock-hard ice. At the = same time, parts of speech blurring in the = confused syntax of the strophe, I visualize, = and feel, a countryside's being rocked to = darkness like an infant's being rocked to = sleep--to some kind of deep final stasis. = = Of course, "getting dark," on a line by itself = as it is, might simply indicate a new subject's = having been introduced, the fact that it is = getting dark. Perhaps the narrator was about = to address in greater detail what the rocks = he's speaking of are made of, but he's tired, = too tired--or bored--to go on, and it's getting = dark. Still, the phrase "rocks of getting = dark" arises naturally from the poem. Maybe = everything is going to sleep--in all senses of = the word. (And I think of Robert Frost's = "Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening.") = Whatever its final "meaning," the poem turned = me back to Grenier's previous poem with a = considerably less condescending attitude. This = time around I saw, for the first time, how "a = long" becomes "along." The poem indeed = metaphors the monotony of a long walk going on = and on and on. But it does more: it surprises = us with a pun. The "along" part of the latter = is, of course, amusing, but it is lyrical, too, = for it doesn't just describe a person as = "walking along," or going onward; it also = describes him as walking by the side of = something. In other words, he is not aimlessly = walking, but interacting--in relation--with his = environment. He has a route, he is performing = Roethke's "waltz of To." And, it is strongly = implied, he is consciously doing so; he is = intentioned. = That might not seem a big deal, but to me = there's nothing more profound and archetypal = than to be purposefully following a route, to = be located in the universe, and consciously = going somewhere! And Grenier shows how that = feels with maximal vividness, by springing his = readers into a sense of it as abruptly, and = from as nakedly and repetitiously nowhere-going = a situation, as possible. = He thus allows an apprentice appreciator of = language poetry like me to get some idea of how = much a flawlessly-executed preposition like = "along" can do, even in a poem a mere 13 words = in length! And, as "Wintry" shows, his use of = other kinds of words (participles such as, = "getting," for instance) is equally skillful. = Ergo, there must be something to his kind of = poetry! = I was particularly happy with one result of my = little review: Bob Grenier saw fit after reading it = to send me a very nice and appreciative letter--with = an autographed copy of one of his books. That he = also took the time to point out that the "2" poems = I'd analyzed were actually =153=15, the "passage" starting = with "snow/ blue/ eyes" actually being a complete = poem in itself, didn't perturb me. After all, the = two poems I treated as one =15did=15 go together, sort = of=F6=F6and no title, only a line of asterisks, separated = the two on the page they shared. Anyway, I'm always = making preposterous mistakes as a critic. For = instance, back in college (in my late thirties, the = reader will recall) I was taking a class (one of the = most enjoyable and valuable ones I ever took)--in = poetics. Part of the required work was to analyze = few poems out of a bunch the class's teacher, the = poet Robert Reid, had xeroxed for us. = One of the poems was by Reid himself. Ah, thought = I, what better way to check my critical acumen than = to analyze a poem whose very author is available to = judge the result! So I batted out five or six = hundred words on it. Well, its title, "Window = Seat," destroyed me. Even though the poem spoke of = passing over a house, and of looking down, and so = forth, its title led me to place it not in an = airplane, as I should have, but in a quaint old New = England house possessing something called a window = seat.=7F It was a far more foolish mistake than the = one I made with Grenier's poems, but I still got an = "A" on my paper--which encouragement no doubt was at = least partially responsible, eventually, for this = book! So Professor Reid has much to answer for! = As for my Grenier mistake, I agreed with Grenier = that it =15was=15 a mistake--but I didn't agree with his = later comment that there is "no 'along with', or 'by = =15the side of=15 something'" in his first poem. But = those =15are=15--harumpf--possible meanings of "along," = whatever their user intended by his preposition. = Anyway, the main object of the critic is not to get = everything right, but to get his readers' = sensitivities purring. = I analyzed several other language poems around this = time. Then my taxonomania taking over, I worked up = a fairly elaborate system of terms for the various = kinds of language poetry I believed there to be. I = even got an essay I wrote about the system published = in a magazine called =15SkyViews=15. Again, though, I = will spare my readers the five or six terms I = coined. I did want to mention my efforts lest = anyone think I hadn't been =15everywhere=15 in literature = as a taxonomist. = Before leaving this chapter, I'd like to discuss one = other poet, John M. Bennett, because his poetry, = while xenolinguistic, is xenolinguistic in a way = that strikes me as significantly different from the = way most language poets' work is. Bennett is also = worth discussing simply as a severely under-rated = otherstream poet. So, let us turn now to, "The = Eating," a characteristic poem of his from the = collection he asked me to introduce, =15the Blur=15. It's = on the next page. = As in most of Bennett's poems, the subject matter of = "The Eating" is commonplace, but at once, with the = declaration of its title, a note of drama is = injected: the poem is not to be about mere eating, = but about =15the=15 eating, or a special, perhaps = ritualistic act of eating. Another source of drama = is the beat of the verse (particularly as chanted by = Bennett on the taped version of =15the Blur=15). Many of = the lines start with a strong verb whose first = syllable is strongly accented, and anapests abound. = Other kinds of fancy-footedness which engage the ear = and help bind the reader to matter not immediately = accessible to the intellect include the near-rhyme = of the first line's "Hoping" with the second line's = "sleeping," and the full rhyme a little later of "I" = with "my" as well as several instances of = alliteration, assonance and consonance. = THE EATING Hoping for an end to the food I was sleeping next your breasts. Raising your arms as in death, lamplight sinking into the wall till dark. I hurried to the bank with the burn rising in my throat and my feet swallowed by shoes. Not rubbed by yours cold nights or breathing my neck. A heap of rugs damps the the basement and there's so much air in the waterpipes I'll never quench. Today today. A pile of steaks in a chair and nothing left to suffocate The poem's narrative line starts a shade oddly: its = speaker, who is--it is to be presumed--addressing = his wife or girlfriend, is "hoping for an end to the = food." Apparently if something doesn't end it (such = as--somehow--his sleeping next to someone), he would = be powerless to refuse it. So he is involved more = in a feeding than an eating, a feeding he wants to = end. And as he is not sleeping next to his = companion, but next to her =15breasts=15, it seems likely = that we are back in an archetypal first feeding. = The speaker is hoping to break out of his infantile = dependency on his mother, or a later substitute for = her--such is one possible reading. Overtones of = sexual intimacy are heavily present, of course. At = the same time, however, there is a suggestion of = alienation, of being next not to a person but to a = mere part of her anatomy. The situation, in short, = is ambiguous. = And things only get confuseder with the information = that the woman's breasts are raising her arms, "as = in death." Or is it the speaker who is raising = them? In either case, how can the latter, being = asleep, know about the arms? Clearly we are--at = least in part--not just watching somebody's sleep, = but in it, cut off from conventional rationality. = We are in a piece of literary cubism, too--one in = which many angles into a subject, temporal as well = as spatial, are bound together into a single all-at- once point of view. = After a passage with a peculiar twist about = lamplight which is =15sinking=15 into the wall rather than = merely reflecting off it, all the urgency hitherto = latent in the poet's voice and rhythm comes to the = fore--but, as in so many of Bennett's poems, it is = tied to the most commonplace of events, in this case = =15going to the bank!=15 Why the speaker suddenly needs = to go there is not indicated but probably to make = some kind of withdrawal. There is a "burn rising in = (his) throat," so the withdrawal might be of water. = Or of more maternal milk. = Or maybe he wants to make a deposit. Perhaps the = bank is his companion's womb, and the burn is rising = in a lower throat than the one in his neck. This = might seem far-fetched, but the surrealistic non- rationality of the poem encourages reader- participation even into such far-fetchednesses, and = this for me is one of its main virtues. = The reader is participated even more intensely into = the events of the poem when the speaker's feet are = "swallowed by shoes." Life is underfoot--and feels = menacingly devouring. The poem to this point verily = has achieved an arresting & authentic portrayal from = the inside of someone frantically striving for some = nameless visceral necessity and being hugely = opposed, even by his shoes. = He is lonely, too, for his feet, according to lines = 8 and 9, are not rubbed by his companion's on cold = nights (despite the nearness of her breasts)--nor = does he enjoy her "breathing (his) neck." He lacks = footsy-affectionate companionship, that is, and = mouth-to-mouth sexual desiredness. And with the = latter we are again in food-related matters, in = eating as consuming as final full visceral animal = primitive barbaric raging devouring of one's = surround. = Lines 8 & 9 aren't just about a certain deranged but = archetypally important human state, however. They = also exemplify what is perhaps Bennett's highest = virtue as a poet: =15his ability to deliver first-=15 =15degree beauty indirectly through intense treatment =15 =15of negative space=15. By this I mean that Bennett = tends often to describe something generally = considered pisspuke-unlovely, and to do so with full = dedication, thereby losing many a delicate reader, = and gaining a reputation for negativity. But the = negativity frequently yields the healthiest of = positives, as here it trips us into a fresh-textured = appreciation of full sensual companionship, of = having one's feet rubbed on cold nights by = another's, and one's neck inhaled into full-sexed = intimacy. Bennett describes the good of existence = by violently telling us what it isn't, which can no = more fail to tell us as violently what it is than a = thorough explanation of north can fail to teach us = as thoroughly what south is. = And the good divulged, because unexpected, stands = all the taller in the senses, and because of the = dark of what it has issued from, all the brighter. = Bennett's poetry, then, is a poetry of affirmation = as much as the more clearly affirmative poetry = of=FA.=FA.=FA. I can't think of any former poets of = significance who were exclusively affirmative; their = finest moments occur against darkness--e.g., what = Shakespeare brings off among murders, suicides and = ruin in =15Macbeth=15, or Shelley in the despondencies of = his "Ode to the West Wind," or Roethke in all his = presentations of madness and desolation. In short, = Bennett is not as untraditional as conservative = critics might have you believe. = His best moments are top drawer, too--for instance, = what happens in line 10 where "(a) heap of rugs = damps the basement." This excellently demonstrates = what I mean by a "nightmarriage," which is what I = call any phrase which seems to me both a happy = marriage of images and something out of a nightmare. = This particular one describes the suppression of = menacing things in the speaker's basement. Or it is = the basement itself which is being suppressed--and = if the speaker's shoes can swallow his feet, what = couldn't his basement do?! That's a striking enough = image. But in the context--which is part dream (or = place in a mind), and part human body and its = plumbing, as well as part literal house and its = plumbing--the image bulges into all kinds of other = possibilities. Surely, for instance, all the fire = in the sexual basement that the speaker's genitalia = are is being stifled; and all the agitated cravings = of his belly; and, in fact, all the potential noise = and color and violence of his whole life's undermost = needs and desires! = By its end "The Eating" has itself become a = monstrous nightmarriage, or system of = nightmarriages. Look at the way all its pipes and = passageways, and all the items going somewhere = through them toward guts or wombs or banks or = basements, and all the processes these things = suggest come together to form one gigantic over- image of digestion, respiration, sexual intercourse, = maternal nurturing, perception, economic = intercourse, communication, engineering, and=FA.=FA.=FA. = life. And there is nothing left to suffocate. Nor = have I anything else to say about Bennett--or = xenolinguistic poetry. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 12:29:53 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Edwards Subject: Re: Digest of british-poets - volume 1 #524 Comments: To: british-poets@mailbase.ac.uk Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Reality Street Editions' web site has moved. The new URL is freespace.virgin.net/reality.street Check out the new titles: Barbara Guest: _If So, Tell Me_ (out now) RSE 4packs No 3: _New Tonal Language_ featuring Patricia Farrell, Shelby Matthews, Simon Perril, Keston Sutherland (imminent) Tony Lopez: _Data Shadow_ (out February 2000) Ken Edwards, Reality Street Editions 4 Howard Court, Peckham Rye, London SE15 3PH, UK Tel: 020 7639 7297 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 14:05:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roger Gilbert Subject: Robert Grenier Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Can anyone provide me with an email or postal address for Robert Grenier? Please backchannel. Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 18:39:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wanda Phipps Subject: Music.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hey, It's my first all singing, all music performance with my new band of players--come on out for a half hour of new songs, fun & frivolity-- W A N D A P H I P P S Performing Songs accompanied by Joel Schlemowitz: rhythm guitar Hiroshi Noguchi: slide & lead guitar & Val Massimi: drums 8:00 pm - Tuesday - December 14, 1999 at The Fort at Sidewalk Cafe 94 Avenue A (Corner of Avenue A & E. 6th Street) New York, NY (212) 473-7373 No Cover Hope to see you there! Wanda Phipps Check out my re-designed and updated homepage MIND HONEY at www.users.interport.net/~wanda A honey pot of new poems!!! And if you've been there already try it again--we're always adding cool new stuff! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 11:20:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Fouhy Subject: poetry monday! Comments: To: "manateegirl@hotmail.com" , "MHunnewell@aol.com" , "MLLiebler@aol.com" , "Monet18673@aol.com" , Nancy Desmond , Nanette , "NCGiles@aol.com" , "newsroom@trader-pub.com" , Nico Suave , "Ogorman05@aol.com" , "Othercinsf@aol.com" , "Paul-Victor L. Winters" , PAULETTE , "PeterSpiro@aol.com" , "radio@ncpr.org" , "RECREV@aol.com" , "RinaLanger@aol.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Visit the Creative Arts Cafe poetry site for information regarding Monday night's poet: Joan Halperin http://www.bestweb.net/~cindyf/poetry_2000.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:53:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Scott Keeney Subject: Paul Metcalf: Collected Works Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Just saw that Coffee House's Collected Works of Paul Metcalf have been remaindered for $14.95 (plus $3 for S&H [plus sales tax in Conn.]) available through Edward R. Hamilton, Bookseller, Falls Village, CT 06031-5000. For anyone interested. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:35:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Ed Dorn 1929-1999 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This obituary for Ed Dorn=20 *by James Campbell* appeared in The Guardian on Tuesday December 14, 1999 and on The Guardian website: http://www.newsunlimited.co.uk/obituaries/story/0%2C3604%2C114039%2C00.html Edward Dorn=20 Poet rooted in the imagery of the dispossessed, of working-class America and the mythology of the wild west=20 The American poet Edward Dorn, who has died aged 70, had a loyal readership in Britain, despite having published little in this country for almost 25 years. He was grouped with the Black Mountain poets - named after the progressive college in North Carolina - but unlike Charles Olson, Robert Creeley and Robert Duncan, the leading "black mountaineers", was not a teacher at the college, only a student.=20 His poetry also stood apart from theirs in being rooted in working-class politics and a sense of wild western myth. A list of a few of his many titles gives a hint of the territory he occupied: Hands Up! Idaho Out, High West Rendezvous, and the most famous of them, Gunslinger.=20 Dorn was born in the prairie town of Villa Grove, Illinois, on the banks of the Embarras river, and was brought up between there and Michigan. The wanderlust was in his blood. He never knew his father. His mother was of Dutch ancestry, and his grandfather worked on the railroad. Of his home town, he said: "The first thing you're preoccupied with is how to exist. If you stayed, you had to have a pretty specific reason - you couldn't just stay."=20 Dorn's means of escape was through education: first, at the University of Illinois, and then, in 1950 and again in 1954, at Black Mountain College. He was taught there by Charles Olson, author of the Maximus Poems, a sprawling work in the manner of Ezra Pound's Cantos and William Carlos Williams's Paterson. Olson inspired Dorn to conceive of geography as the American subject, the one from which all other subjects derived, and indeed Dorn's first published book (1960) was called What I See In The Maximus Poems.=20 He even went to live in the fishing town of Gloucester, which forms the background to Olson's vast poem, and wrote poems of his own there, published as From Gloucester Out. Like several of Dorn's books, it was first published in London, in 1964.=20 His early poems were explicitly about working people: truck drivers, small farmers, hunters. Among the earliest poems he published was The Rick Of Green Wood (1956), a lyrical verse with an undertone derived from the English ballads, about a meeting with a woodcutter: "I don't/ want a rick of green wood, I told him/ I want cherry or alder or something strong/ and thin, or thick if dry, but I don't/ want the green wood, my wife would die."=20 Despite the advanced notions about life and art which he encountered at Black Mountain, and his later attempts to write a poetry of ideas, Dorn's sympathies were always with the dispossessed. In The Debt My Mother Owed to Sears Roebuck, he wrote of " the dust of the fields/ in her eye, the only title she ever had to lands. "=20 Dorn's verse was inclined to be loose in structure. He could say, without blinking, that there was little difference between poetry and prose, and even between poetry and talk. His "talk" lacked the economy of other speaking-voice poets - such as Allen Ginsberg at his best, or the minimalist Robert Creeley, who was Dorn's examiner at Black Mountain College.=20 But he was right to stay true to his themes and his poetic voice. At the end of the 1960s, he made his peace with the cowboy, and began the poem which was to make his name and grant him a status equal to that of his older teachers.=20 Gunslinger I & 2 was published in Britain by the late, lamented Fulcrum Press in 1970. It showed Dorn in a new mode, hip and humorous, combining the iconic figure of the old west with concepts drawn from his readings in philosophy and science. Just to stop his epic - there were to be four books in all - from getting too serious, he gave the gunslinger of the title a talking horse, who was apt to roll a joint in the middle of a conversation, introduced a character called "I" in addition to the first-person narrator, and put all his characters at the service of a cabaret owner called Miss Lil.=20 Dorn's relationship with England began when he arrived to teach at the University of Essex as a Fulbright lecturer in 1964. His first marriage ended in divorce and he married an Englishwoman, Jennifer Dunbar, with whom he collaborated on several projects. He soon made friends among the standard-bearers of England's alternative literary scene, such as the poets Tom Raworth and JH Prynne (to both of whom he dedicated his book The North Atlantic Turbine), Tom Pickard, who ran the Morden Tower in Newcastle, and the publisher Stuart Montgomery, of Fulcrum Press.=20 England, Dorn said, "set me on a new course," but his politics sometimes tempted him to take a hammer to England's class system. In the long poem, Oxford, he wrote: "The woman opposite/ by no act other than Murder/ is permitted existence." When he used the same blunt in strument on his own country - "the thorn in the throat of our national hypocrisy" etc - the result was effective neither as poetry nor as rabble-rousing.=20 Politics and poetics were in a state of constant interplay in Dorn's work. The function of the poet in America, he said, was to "stay as removed as possible from all permanent associations with power". As for the institutional prizes, such as the National Book Award and the Pulitzer, his words were: "Who cares?"=20 At a reading in London in late 1998 , Dorn, clearly ill, gave a strange, mesmerising performance, which was somewhere between poetry, stand-up comedy and personal tragedy. He prefaced each poem with a long introduction, straying easily from the point, and then, just as he had the audience chuckling, would burst into tears for no apparent reason.=20 The overall impression was of an almost unbearable sensitivity. He treated the listeners in the hall as he might have done a group of friends invited to his home, and this too could be seen as part of his aesthetic. He once joked that he knew "almost exactly how many readers I have, and I even know a large percentage of them personally".=20 Although populist in politics, Dorn was a cult writer whose natural home was on the fringe. Gunslinger would have baffled the "chunky westerner" of whom he wrote in Home On The Range, or the cowboy who sings "Yi Yi" in Vaquero, another early poem. While in his early days he too worked by turning his hand to whatever came along, from the mid-1960s onwards he earned his living as a university teacher in Kansas, Chicago, San Francisco and Boulder, Colorado, among other places.=20 Dorn was remarkably prolific, turning out chapbooks, pamphlets, magazines and books which merged into other books. Between the years 1968-72, for instance, he published almost 20 titles of poetry, fiction and non-fiction. With Prynne and others, he issued Bean News, in which journalism and poetry, fact and forgery overlapped. More recently, he was engaged in Languedoc Variorum: A Defence Of Heresy And Heretics, a long poem with a running prose com mentary, which Etruscan Books, in Devon, have been planning to publish in 2000.=20 His novel, By The Sound, appeared in 1971, and his Collected Poems in 1983. In 1996 his High West Rendezvous was published, and this year saw the appearance of Sun Unwound, translations with Gordon Brotherstone of Latin American poetry.=20 Dorn's wife Jennifer, and their son and daughter, survive him, as does his first wife, and his stepson, stepdaughter and son from that marriage.=20 =A3#149; Edward Dorn, poet, born April 12 1929; died December 10 1999=20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 13:28:57 -0800 Reply-To: filch.net@chronotope.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: f i l c h Subject: Re: atlanta poets group/grolier bookshop In-Reply-To: <0.ae540819.2586a418@aol.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Joseph Heller is dead at 76. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:33:36 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Subject: Re: Ed Dorn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Tom Beckett To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Tuesday, 14 December 1999 09:59 Subject: Ed Dorn >Ed Dorn died ,at home in Denver, December 10, 1999. He was a man of >ferocious intelligence and great wit. > _Thus this poor individual like all the singulars of his race came in forward and goes out sternward and some distant starre flashes even him an indiscriminate salute._ Gunslinger, Book II ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:31:22 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Re: Peter Ganick Comments: To: Jerrold Shiroma MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit he announced here a while ago that due to a pile up of work + family illness he was suspending epublication for a while and closing down his email - until he resurfaces we have to use the mail L ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerrold Shiroma To: Sent: 11 December 1999 08:57 Subject: Peter Ganick | Anyone have the e-mail for Peter Ganick? | | Much thanks. | ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 19:33:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard Dillon Subject: Re: Vote for Prynne Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Prynne was very tight with ED DORN. A vote for Jeremy Prynne is a vote for Ed Dorn, I say! ---------- >From: Ron Silliman >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Vote for Prynne >Date: Fri, Dec 10, 1999, 5:40 PM > >The reason to vote for Prynne is to demonstrate the difference in quality >between what is being written these days and what gets published in the New >Yorker itself. > >Prynne, in this sense, could be any one of us. It's fine that it's him. > >Ron Silliman > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:45:53 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: apologies re Tom Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Listmates, I apologize for responding to a b-c from Tom Raworth as though it had been f-c to this List. What confused me was that the post was fwded to me from another list-member, who had the day before fwded a post to her from me, to the List. Assuming this was further to that public discussion of events in Seattle, I screwed up. Sorry, Tom---although no cause that I can see, for yr post not to become part of the public discussion. That decision, however, is yours to make, not mine, and I regret any embarrasment I may have caused. And thanks to Doug Lang, for his well-merited rebuke. My face is redder than my armband. David ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 19:33:23 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: miekal and Organization: Awkword Ubutronics Subject: Re: poems & new music in RealAudio MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit herb does it look like antennae radio will be able to stay on the net, I got some mailing saying that it was having financial problemos.... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:38:25 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Ed Dorn In-Reply-To: <0.8f9542d4.2584f783@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ed Dorn a very good example, person who did music,wit, with attitude. Whose anti-stupidity stance was always available. George Bowering. fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:38:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: question about the 1950s In-Reply-To: <385480E6.83266A0F@hawaii.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I'm going to be doing a directed reading with a graduate student in >history next semester who is working on the 1950s, especially on car ads >and anti-materialist backlashes. Any suggestions you folks can make >about relevant poetry and also 1950s culture and counter-culture is most >welcome. > >Susan Schultz >University of Hawai`i Have a look at _On the Road_. George Bowering. fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 23:51:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Wheeler Subject: Christie Hume Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If anyone could provide her current email and/or new Chicago phone # I would be much obliged. Susan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 00:18:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: Ed Dorn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" _Gunslinger_ made all a difference. It put scare quotes about the authentic voice of Black Mtn and blazed a trail to the authenticity of a subsequent time. A watershed work in the coyote wit of which, you'd be a dunderhead not to take delight, and instruction. But through his death considering the man, I am sent back to read the poetry of a more vulnerable aspect, when the poet admitted to his faults. Here's one from _The Newly Fallen_ , as it stands there rather than the slightly revised version in the Collected : Like a Message on a Sunday Sits the forlorn plumber by the river with his daughter staring at the water then, at her his daughter closely. Once World, he came to our house to fix the stove and couldn't oh, we were arrogant and talked about him in the next room, doesn't a man know what he is doing? Can't it be done right, World of iron thorns. Now they sit by the meager river by the water . . . stare into that plumber so that I can see a daughter in the water she thin and silent, he, wearing a baseball cap in a celebrating town this summer season may they live on on, may their failure be kindly, and come in small pieces. David. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 03:05:49 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: sociology of bookstores Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed The first bookstore I saw that divided its books into identity categories was Small Press Traffic (at its second location on 24th Street): Men, Women, Fiction Ron ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:35:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Re: Edward Dorn, 1929-1999 / Sylvester MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message came to the administrative account. Chris ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Date: Tue, Dec 14, 1999 8:39 AM -0500 From: William A Sylvester On one reading Dorn gave at UB, he quoted Olson: Don't write your own poetry. Write poetry Dorn certainly did. Bill Sylvester On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Poetics List Administration wrote: > The death of Ed Dorn represents a great loss, if not unexpected. > I did not know him, though I found his work delightful and important; > out of respect for his friends, I will offer only this poem from his book > -Geography- (London: Fulcrum Press, 1965). Chris > > -- > > Mourning Letter, March 29, 1963 > > No hesitation > would stay me > from weeping this morning > for the miners of Hazard Kentucky. > The mine owners' > extortionary skulls > whose eyes are diamonds don't float > down the rivers, as they should, > of the flood > > The miners, cold > starved, driven from work, in > their homes float though and float > on the ribbed ships of their frail > bodies, > > Oh, go letter, > keep my own misery close to theirs > associate me with no other honor. > ---------- End Forwarded Message ---------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:36:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lowther, John" Subject: Re: sociology of bookstores MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain maria damon wrote; (and th eonly bookstore nationally to specialize exclusively in poetry) and i thought there was _Open_ in seattle its in wallingford (sp?) i think ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:33:44 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: response to New Yorker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Not all the books listed for the New Yorker prize are awful. John Koethe is a decent Ashbery imitator. Louise Gluck is a fine poet if you like that sort of thing. I have no doubt she will emerge victorious. And of course Prynne. I forget what the other candidates are. Prizes and lists of the best books of the century, etc..., like horoscopes, should be used "for entertaiment purposes only." I have a hard time working up a moral fervor about it! The New Yorker never had particularly great poetry, though when Howard Moss was editor he published James Schuyler and the like. It is interesting that even though the New Yorker changed from upper-middle brow WASP John Cheever style culture to a sort of upper-middle brow people magazine, the basic poetry it publishes remains identical. But this is exactly what people used to read the old New Yorker for. Jonathan Mayhew jmayhew@ukans.edu _____________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:20:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: more on class... In-Reply-To: <19991211011724.IHII5516@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" the january (2000) issue of _pmla_ (just out) features a number of pieces focusing on class... some more theoretical, some more lit-crit... worth having a look... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:36:05 -0800 Reply-To: booglit@excite.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kirschenbaum Subject: New Boogs: Bouchard, Cole, Davis, Durand, & Rackin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Now available from Boog Literature: Boog Literature chapbook # 25=20 By the author. Poems by Sean Cole Digest size, 20 pages + 4-page cover wrap collage by Joe Maynard (editor of Pink Pages), $6ppd. Limited lettered edition of 26 copies=20 Digest size, 20 pages + 4-page cover wrap Each book has a tip-in sheet signed by the author and cover artist. $12ppd.= =20 Chapbook to commemorate his reading Sunday December 5, 1999 at the Zinc Bar in New York City, with Aaron Kiely and Adeena Karasick. =20 Cole=92s work has appeared on theeastvillage.org. He is an assistant coordinator for the annual Boston Alternative Poetry Festival, held each July. Boogcard #5:=09Ethel Rackin,=09=09"The clothes here are very sexy" Boogcard #6:=09Jordan Davis,=09=09Happy Baby Boogcard #7:=09Daniel Bouchard,=09Consciousness of Self Boogcard #8:=09Marcella Durand,=09an excerpt from Reading Postures Unsigned $1.50 ppd. each; all four for $5 ppd. Signed and lettered, $3 ppd. each; all four for $10 ppd. Rackin is an associate editor at APR. Published to commemorate her reading Nov. 3, 1999 with Gerald Stern and Matthew Lippman at Makor. Davis is the author of Poem on a Train (Barque Books). He is an editor of the literary journal, The Hat, and an organizer of the Poetry City reading series at Teachers & Writers. Published to coordinate his reading with Kenneth Koch on November 10, 1999, at the Poetry Project at St. Mark's Church in-the-Bowery. Durand is the author of City of Ports (Situations Press, 1999), the poetry editor of Erato Press, and the program coordinator for the Poetry Project. SubPress will publish Bouchard's first full-length collection of poetry, Diminutive Revolutions, this month. Published to commemorate their reading together on December 13, 1999 at the Poetry Project at St. Mark's Church in-the-Bowery. All postcards are H-5.5" x W-4.25"=20 Checks payable to: Boog Literature 351 W.24th Street Apt. 19E New York, NY 10011-1510 Emailbooglit@excite.com o tel: (212) 206-8899 Boog Literature publications are edited and published by David A. Kirschenbaum. Send SASE, or email, for catalog. as ever, David _______________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com=20 Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:20:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: Re: question about the 1950s In-Reply-To: <385480E6.83266A0F@hawaii.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Susan, This may interest you. Thomas Frank is the editor of The Baffler and often writes for Harpers. This book is his Ph.d diss and is quite incitefuland may be of use to your student. Frank, Thomas (Thomas C.) The conquest of cool : business culture, counterculture, and the rise of hip consumerism / Chicago : University of Chicago Press, c1997. cheers, kevin hehir ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 14:26:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Stefans, Brian" Subject: Prynne Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Rebecca, > It seems to me that this same argument could be used to suggest that affirmative action laws should be abolished. With all due respect (and this email isn't about you, just this idea), this doesn't strike me as a very good analogy, and indeed symptomatic of some thinking on how poetry is intended to effect culture (when such intensions are hinted at or stated). The New Yorker is hardly Congress, nor is it something one would think could be fetishized as "society" -- it's really a very specific magazine for a specific group of people, even if it's a very large group. If you start imagining it as some avuncular entity, some sort of big daddy (or mommy, either way) authority whose mind you hope to change, then you get into trouble (not to mention the fact that the New Yorker can go away, go bankrupt, if we want it to but society cannot). As it is, the New Yorker can change in a split second, as it did when Tina Brown took over (she's gone, of course): in their first (or one of their first) issues after she landed, there was a gorgeous full page picture of W.H. Auden in a long overcoat in the snow staring, melancholic as it's possible to perceive behind his drapes of wrinkles (here I'm getting belle-lettristic) with a very long poem on the facing page, something like the In Praise of Limestone but I can't remember exactly. Now, anyone could have looked at that gesture of hers as a "sign of something new" or a "change for the better" as if it were on her hit list of cosmetic changes along wit Art Spieglman covers and (was she responsible for this?) Peter Scheldahl. I have, really, no idea how she followed up that gesture though I don't remember too many more photos of poets, nor better poetry, coming in it's wake. What's striking is that Auden, for whatever the readers of the New Yorker knew, could have just as easily been described as a "Cambridge don" (of course he wasn't) -- in other words, he's English, an amenable exotic, and despite his leftism and flirtation with experimental poetics and, one might say, his homosexuality, he wasn't threatening to the New Yorker readers sense of culture (he wrote opera librettos, too) and their mastery over it. Anyway, all I'm saying is that, in my opinion, there's no reason to even want to change the New Yorker, nor to equate it with any sort of cultural legitimacy in terms of what this loosely defined "we" are trying to do. The New Yorker will never spread a greater understanding of experimental poetics unless they know how to sell it or assimilate it into whatever else it is they sell (culture, events, opinion), which of course they won't (because of idiots like us). In that way, it's hardly a "ray of light" but a rather wide swath of darkness -- not neutral even, but kind of negative (though on any other day I'd say it's pretty neutral). I think Prynne should win that award, whatever the hell it is, because I can't get over how great some of those poems are and that, in general over here, we don't know much about him -- it's like Hopkins or Dickinson coming to light. But it would be sad to see that the first widely disseminated writing on Prynne would be a fluff article in the New Yorker, but then again, if they print one of his poems, Prynne seems prepared: his writing is almost armored against any easy discursive assimilation, while being so formally crystalline as to not "go gently" into the anonymity that the magazine seems to want to cloak its authors in, not to mention the chummy garbage they'd probably want to spread about him. Ok, this all sounds terrible cynical. Here's another example (my facts will be all wrong here), an English one, which had to do with Iain Sinclair's editing of the Palladin poetry series, which got books by folks like Allen Fisher and Bill Griffiths into the "mainstream." The books didn't sell all that well, the publisher decided to stop the series and pulped the entire print run -- not drop them in used book stores like, say, I do, or keep them in their attics for posterity or whomever might be interested, just destroyed them. "Their" laws are just too different from "ours" in this way. Another example: David Lehman has to write a book on poetry, and decides in the last chapter, while he had his moment behind the "bully pulpit", to get out all his grumpiness on the charlatans he feels have filled the shoes of immortals unjustly(one of his sestinas was rejected from L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E, I hear). He does this while answering a few calls, changing the ribbon in his typewriter and listening to Rachmaninov (like his heroes, right) -- in other words, here he is engaged in serious intellectual activity that affects, in direct and indirect ways, great numbers of people, and he doesn't care enough to think through his ideas, read any of the literature, etc, or to even quote from it adequately (only in censure), but has no scruples about weighing in with a moral judgment that, to those who don't know better, can be taken for the general opinion on things (like, "disco is out"). Ethics, ethics, ethics. So I go to Montreal a few months back and, trying to dig up some Earle Birney books (they didn't have them) discover that the only book I can find of "New York school" poetry in the stores in Lehman's! The essential continuity, throughout these examples, is that none of these central, big publishing outfits ever took the time to care about the work they were presenting in an effort to be hip; it's all very cynical and manipulative. Which is why Prynne is great: he's only had one or two "trade" books and the rest, I think, were small chapbooks; he doesn't write reviews far as I know, and I think there is a kind of built in auto-critical aspect to his poems, whereby they have very attractive, almost conservative (or "formal"), surfaces (they even look good hanging on a wall from across the room) but you can't simply breeze through them, follow the stately rhythms (they change constantly) nor do you just wait for the good jokes or accept them as some sort of "experience in language" -- his own little controversy with McCaffery over language poetics seemed to center around this aspect of the "play" of language, the semantic slippage, as providing a sort of ease for the reader rather than the difficulty he wanted. I think there's an ethical dimension to his "difficulty" and that part of it has to do with this relationship to other forms of literature -- mainstream, the media, whatever -- that don't trouble you into thought. It has a relationship to a variety of things, actually, and I don't claim to understand them all. But part of the problem with these ideas of aesthetic merging -- i.e. lets break down the walls of these aesthetic camps and just meet halfway -- is precisely when it extends to places like the New Yorker, which has always been a non-entity and should remain that way, and when it is not truly in the service of a complexity of thought on these matters which, we agree, are so important (and if "they" don't seem prepared or willing to keep up with "us," that's not our concern). The difference between two poor and ignored "experimental" writers in New York who don't write like each other is nothing compared to the difference between them and the writers that the New Yorker habitually tends to; then again, if the difference between those two (poor and ignored, etc.) writers is in their attitude to the New Yorker (standing in for other cultural institutions) it may in fact be a big difference and worth investigating. A kind of thoughtless merging of poetics tends to gloss over the fact that there are very particular attitudes that some of these "radical" poets possess toward assimilation into the dominant culture, that it isn't just a game to want to reject certain types of identities and aesthetic closures, and that many of us feel that we could write great poems for the New Yorker on any given day but don't. Artaud wrote that "all writing is pigshit," or something like that, and at about the same time (the first half of the century) Brecht was giving an important literary award to a poem about a local bicycling star (it was called something like "Hey! hey! the Iron Man!" -- that's not even close but something like that). Why do people do things like this? I don't know, but a lot of us are still doing this very thing in more subtle ways today -- being "moral exhibitionists" in some quasi-nihilistic manner, and our art and maybe in our lives -- and to think that it's because we are really scratching at the doors of Culture wanting to get in is missing something very important. I couldn't see Prynne as a "ray of light" for the New Yorker because, after all, he would refuse to go to their parties -- it's part of him not to be this light. "Good" gestures by the New Yorker confuse the point, especially when they transcend the words and actions of those they affect (in this case poets who aren't considered to possibly have social powrer of their own), though then again probably brings it to a head. Ah, the patronage issue again... 1930's anyone? I feel like I missed an earlier point, which had to do with the initial linking of social activism with changing the New Yorker, but if you graph out what exactly the entities are in these respective exchanges perhaps that's better -- use colored markers. Well, but anyway, my apologies for using your very short email for this William Blake moment, but I had some free time today. Cheers, Brian ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:47:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Damion Searls Subject: Re: CLASS (Brink vs. Schultz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Kathy Lou Schultz wrote, quoting Leonard Brink: >The >following is an observation that lacks explanation or >supporting argumentation: > >"Of course language can't be seperated [sic -K.L.S.] from any of >those things [politics, class, etc. -D.S.]. They're made out of >language. Poems are made out of language, too. But it just doesn't >follow that poems are made of politics, class, etc". I found it a kinda compelling argument as is, so I was curious how it would be rebutted. I imagine the "explanation or supporting argumentation" is as follows: If you accept the premise that class etc. are "made out of language" (i.e. ideologically/linguistically constructed; not "natural" but products of our linguistic (and material) culture), then it does not logically follow that everything linguistic has to do with class. (The logical structure, which is the only point I was understanding Mr. Brink to be making here, is the same as in the following: Curry is "made out of ingredients." Cakes are made out of ingredients too. But it just doesn't follow that cakes have anything to do with curry.) I think the counterargument is to DENY that "class etc. are made out of language but language is not made out of class etc." This, I take it, would be Ms. Schultz's argument: intrinsic in any linguistic utterance is some sort of tonal register or mark of class (and race? and gender?), so ANYTHING made up of language, e.g. poems, is also "made up of" class. That's a kind of compelling argument to me in the abstract, but when I think about it I'm not sure what it could really mean -- what would the Mark Of Class be, other than thematic content? -- so I'd appreciate some "explanation or supporting argumentation" *here*. The other three counterarguments in Ms. Schultz's post I find less compelling. [1] >I believe that attempting to divorce writing from its >social/political contexts is dangerous. The act of >pretending that writing isn't political results in support >of dominant power relations. I'm far from convinced that *thinking about writing* is ever all that political, whether one thinks writing is class-based, not class-based, or whatever. Maybe such thinking indirectly leads to political things (like publishing different sorts of writers, or what have you), but it just as often doesn't, and it's those other things, not the sitting around thinking, that either support or don't support dominant power relations. In any case, I imagine Mr. Brink would (to my mind more persuasively than in his above argument) claim that supporting/combatting power relations isn't necessarily poetics. [2] >I would suggest however >that the privilege to ignore class issues is just that: a >privilege. True, but what exactly is wrong with that? Are you saying that living out a "privileged" existence is automatically bad? We shouldn't think about poetry because other people in the world are too poor/hungry? Or are you saying that privilege = bad poetics (because it leaves stuff out)? But everyone on this list is "privileged" -- it's a privilege to eat enough square meals a day to live, it's a privilege to be literate, to have access to a computer, to have been born -- so one's square meals (or having learned to read or parents' sex life) have to be incorporated in one's poems/poetics? Of course diet may well *be* relevant to poetics in some cases, either because of biographical circumstances (Poet X writes really short poems because he/she has only 2-minute breaks from his/her farming; poet Y caught some mind-altering disease from poor diet) or because a poet intentionally thematizes the issue in his/her poems. But that doesn't make it universally relevant; Brink's point seems more plausible to me than Schultz's implied point that "privilege" is NECESSARILY relevant to poetics. And as for my two cents, I don't mind "non-poetics" issues on the poetics list (e.g. the Seattle WTO updates, Viequez (sp?), etc.). I'm not trying to shut down any discussions here by saying they're "not really poetics." (I'm actually trying to prod a better defense against Mr. Brink's argument.) [3] >I also >think it results in misreadings and shallow readings. I >return to the example of Erica Hunt. An analysis of Hunt's >that only concerned itself with "form, structure" etc. (as >if those things themselves weren't political!) would >result in a very uniformed, very cursory reading of this >important experimental poet. See above. Clearly there are some poets less amenable to "formal" readings, and some poets more amenable to "formal" readings. I'm sure a "Who cares about class" person could come up with a poet as obvious for his/her position as Hunt is for Schultz's. Curious what y'all think, Damion Searls ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 16:13:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Poetry City transit strike MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In the event of a New York City Transit Authority strike, the Thursday 16 December Poetry City reading by Catherine Barnett and Darlene Gold will be postponed to Thursday 27 January. Watch this space for news about the Bernadette Mayer party for the reprinting of Midwinter Day - scheduled for Wednesday 22 December - apogee full moon solstice zowie! Januray at Poetry City . 5 Union Square West . New York City Thursday 6 January . 7 pm Book Party for Kim Lyons's Abra Ca Dabra Thursday 13 January . 7 pm Greg Fuchs / Jane LeCroy Thursday 20 January . 7 pm Mariposa / Youme Landowne all poetry city events free! hosted by Anna Malmude and Jordan Davis info@twc.org . 212 691 6590 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 14:28:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Acharya Hom Raj Subject: Ness Ness and Ness In-Reply-To: <199912131756.MAA6779020@pimout1-int.prodigy.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I open up the computer and I find myself back in my old village, with the same cowshit. Whiteness/Blackness/Brown-ness/Pink-ness/and all mess of nesses, race, identity, ethnicity, whatever you want to call it. Let poetry be poetry. It does not need a caste. I recall back in the cobra-infested, mosquito-danced village in Nepal where I was born and raised how, when a kid was born, the priest had the sole/soul authority to name it. I am Hom not because my parents wanted me to be Hom but because the priest decided so, because they got the credentials, not you not me. And the last name always gives the caste which gives the nature. I remember one day my mother telling me not to play with the children of other caste. Can we play now? Can all of us play, or do we have to have find out from the priests how to judge? Do we first have to know the caste/tribe/ethnicity/class/gender/color/sexual orientation/the dinner they eat/how fat they are to "understand" their work? Yes I understand it's helpful but to a very lesser degree. The typical people in my village say, "Where the sun can't reach poets easily reach." (Ravi napugne thaonma kavi pughchhan.) When I look in the face of poetry it does not know color, race, bank account, etc. So here I am on the World Wide Web reaching everybody's mouth in cyberspace, all these poets from universities, especially America--The Big Place, the House of the High Priest--and as we say in Nepal, it's Back To Mangalamon! best, Hom. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 00:17:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII i slide down the slippery slope on a foreign planet this planet is light years away there are many strange and wonderful forms of life! i'm sliding too fast! i need to stop myself before i get killed! i don't want to dissolve into a mess of disorganized molecules suddenly: i discover serrated edges! there are tiny slips and precipitous drops in a regular order i attach serrated edges to my body! my body slows into an easy descent i discover this is a fine way to pass the time of day everything around here's got them now serrated edges are a new-found planetary wonder ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 00:47:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Upcoming Gig In-Reply-To: <199912092338.SAA13643@dept.english.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Volumen, a band in which I play keyboards in, will be playing in NYC at Arlene's Grocery (or Groceries) on Stanton and Ludlow, December 30th, 8PM....for free.... even poets are invited.... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 00:05:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Bay Area Now Walking Tour Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi Everybody, As part of Yerba Buena Center for the Arts' Bay Area Now II art show, I will be leading a walking tour/performance piece on Thursday, December 16, 6 to 8p.m., Yerba Buena Center for the Arts, 701 Mission Street (at 3rd), San Francisco, free. Meet in the lobby. I will be accompanied by many artists, curators, art students and street people, including Rex Ray, Norma Cole, Taylor Brady, Wayne Smith, and Jocelyn Saidenberg. If you're in the area, hope to see you there. Kevin Killian ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:22:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: yes, by Doctor Leopold Konninger MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII \ yes twirling_nikuko_! > zz; head -200 zz > yy; pico yy twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! - by Doctor Leopold Konninger _________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:26:18 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: maria damon In-Reply-To: <199912090434.XAA20080@dept.english.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" oh louis, louis! i "got" your "message" through psychic cyberroutes. "please contact" so i can find out the "nature" of your "urgency!" Please contact "ASAP"! (that means, "as soon as possible," for those of you not "in the know!") At 11:34 PM -0500 12/8/99, Louis Cabri wrote: >I desperately, immediately need to contact Maria Damon -- Maria -- Damon. >Contacting: Maria Damon. Help! Does anyone know how I do it? How! >It's Important! Help me! Please, let Maria Damon know I >need to get "in touch" with her. If you know how I do this -- thank >god! If you know -- great! If, that is, you know. > >Very concerned to make contact with Maria Damon, > >Shall R. Nameless ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:09:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Poetry City is on MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No strike! Poetry City is on! Thursday night, Dec 16 at 7 pm Catherine Barnett & Darlene Gold at Teachers & Writers 5 Union Sq W NYC ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:44:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Dylan Thomas-A Child's Xmas in Wales / Fouhy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message came to the administrative account. Chris -- From: George Fouhy Date: 12/16/99 1:25 AM -0500 This is the last reading of 1999! Our traditional poetry reading of Dylan Thomas' poem- A Child's Christmas in Wales read by Poet Ron Price followed by open mike. Hot cider and cozy atmosphere. Relax and enjoy an evening remembering a long ago Christmas......... Find details at: http://www.bestweb.net/~cindyf/poetry_2000.htm A Peaceful Winter to All........... Creative Arts Cafe Poetry Series ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:20:34 -0500 Reply-To: douglang@bellatlantic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Doug Lang Organization: douglang Subject: Re: Ed Dorn 1929-1999 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Charles. I'd visited The Guardian's website, to see what they would say. It's a typically British view of any poet or poetry that does not fit the prevailing, rigid, and limiting model of what poetry should be. Terms like "cult writer" and "remarkably prolific" are key phrases, showing the true disdain that is in back of this condescending, provincial guff. Well, the hell with that. It's been 27 years since I left the UK, and it's so comforting to know that little or nothing has changed, except that there are even more committed, accomplished poets there now, who can be ignored by the mainstream, or dismissed as marginal, or odd, or, god forbid, too much under the American influence. Dorn's influence and spirit will remain, I trust. Something for which I'm grateful. Best regards, Doug Doug Lang 3945 Connecticut Ave NW Apt.110 Washington DC 20008-2415 202-537-0794 douglang@bellatlantc.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:41:26 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: Ed Dorn Obit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On a Clause in His Obit >cult writer whose natural home was on the >fringe. Dont give me a home where the bullshitters roam and maindrainins and middleclass play where 'tis a great ruth noone tries the truth and this Dorn guy's not studied all day. His home, home is the fringe where the lickspittle tenderfeet cringe from the cow-poke Ed Dorn who was born to be thorn in the sides of their epics to whinge. +++++++++ further verses invited. db ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 03:02:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: quaint Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Listmates, I must hove to and heave off, and shall leave the List for a week. I have a tiny gift for you, I hope you enjoy, and it is Quaint (inspired by Mark Weiss' reply to a correspondent who found Freud 'quaint,'-- inspired by but having nothing to do with) I like quaint. I like to cultivate quaint, to have quaint hanging round my ardent gate, there is nothing like quaint. I look at a woman and I think "quaint," and when this happens, I am always atttracted. Metaphorically speaking, I would eat quaint for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Intellectually speaking, I wish to penetrate quaint. I want to know it back to front and upside down and inside out and I have the equipment for the task, I'm told. Quaint is a spring day in the rain in England's Cotswold Hills, by the bait-house, beside the marsh, at eleven standing beside your sister who is sixteen inches taller, and thinking youd better not go to bed with her. Quaint is not merely decorative. It fills with meaning and some it it sticks. Quaint tells you, "Dont get any ideas," except, of course, the idea that it's quaint. If I get up in the morning, it's thanks to quaint. I cant recommend quaint highly enough. I stay up late for quaint. I keep solemn watch for quaint, I abide its coming, as things do to me. When people tell me, "Quaint is catching on too fast and becoming common," I always agree. Because I think its a quaint idea. I'm glad theres quaint enough to go around. Speaking, as we were, of quaint, I double over, as though in pain. I look through my legs and have a great view of quaint. One never gets over it not entirely. Your very existence now is quaint. David ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:57:26 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matthew Blevins Subject: Re: sociology of bookstores Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed As one who has studied some cognitive anthropology, I find this an interesting thread. The fact that bookstores are changing the principles by which they categorize this literature may reflect changes in the schematic structures we ourselves use to categorize it. Although it might be tempting to adopt a conspiracy-theory where bookstores' systems are subverting our perceptions, this simply does not fit in with their motive: to sell more books. On the other hand, creating a an organizational structure which closely matches that of one's clients would facilitate more effective navigation; in other words, people could find what the want (and buy it) more easily and quickly. A more fertile ground of inquiry would seem to be in considering how these changes in categorization may relate to changes both in the field of poetics and in mainstream society in general. Ethnopoetics and multiculturalism are probably where I would start. -Matthew Blevins ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 19:11:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Cameron Subject: Richard Maxwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Does anyone on this list happen to have an e-mail address for Richard Maxwell, the playwright? If so, could you please backchannel it to me? thanks, David Cameron ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 17:53:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. Comments: RFC822 error: MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Charles Bernstein Subject: MLA Events / Chicago 1999 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Here are several Chicago MLA events with which I am involved: Session #168: Tuesday, Dec. 28th at 8:30am in Parlor F (Sheraton). "Globalization and the Possibilities for a Literature of the Americas." Session Leader: Ernesto Grosman, with talks by Lucia Helena Santiago Costigan, Roland Greene, and Grosman. I'll be the respondent. Session #597A. Wednesday, Dec. 29, 3:30pm, Columbus Hall I and J, Hyatt Regency. "Conversations with Poets: Robert Creeley." Creeley will read poems and respond questions from the audience and from Susan Stewart, Sandra Bermann, and me. Session # 640. A Poetry Reading by Kathleen Fraser and Lorenzo Thomas, in honor of their forthcoming essay books from the University of Alabama Press; Water Tower (Hyatt-Regency). Hank Lazer will introduce. (Note the Paul Hoover reading oriognally scheduled for this time has been cancelled.) STOP BY the University of Alabama Press table (booth 303) for information about the Modern and Contemporarty Poetics series -- and a preview of these new books. Session #717. Wednesday, Dec. 29, 9pm, Cominsky (Hyatt Regency). "Poetry and the Inauthentic." *An all Poetics List panel* on fraud, hoaxes, sincerity, and identity. Bob Perelman, Presiding; talks by Brian McHale, Philip Mead (on 'Ern Malley), Hank Lazer, and me. Sadly, Mead is unable to get to US but Bob Perelaman will read his paper and no doubt add some thoughts of his own on the Malley affair. Hope to see some of you there (please say hello!) -- & best for the Holidays to all in Poetics Listville! Charles ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:49:26 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Freedman Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Freedman Subject: Re: sociology of bookstores MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's one that is exclusively poetry, but it's mail and phone order, so I don't know if it counts: The Spring Church Book Company in Spring Church, Pennsylvania is a unique place to get just about any poetry book in print--and many that aren't. The toll-free number is 1-800-496-1262. The address is PO Box 127, Spring Church, PA 15686 ----- Original Message ----- From: Lowther, John To: Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 1999 10:36 AM Subject: Re: sociology of bookstores > maria damon wrote; > (and th eonly bookstore nationally > to specialize > exclusively in poetry) > and > i thought there was _Open_ in seattle > its in wallingford (sp?) i think ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:13:14 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Keith Tuma Subject: Dorn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Adding to the Dorn obituary Charles Bernstein forwarded yesterday this from today's _The Independent_ (England), written by Tom Raworth. It's accompanied by a photograph of Dorn and a poem from _Hands Up!_ (1964), "A =46ate of Unannounced Years." Hoping that the editors at the _Chicago Review_ won't mind, I'll also append a recent poem by Dorn published there (45.2, 1999). *** EDWARD DORN With the death of Edward Dorn the United States loses not only one of its finest poets but a rare critical intelligence and cultural commentator. Edward Merton Dorn was born in rural Illinois at the start of the Great Depression, in poverty. He was educated in a one room schoolhouse, then High School (where he helped on the local newspaper) and for two years at the University of Illinois. He worked for a while at the Boeing plant in Seattle, returned to Illinois, and through his art teacher Raymond Obermayr was directed towards Black Mountain College in North Carolina where he arrived in the autumn of 1950. In 1951 he left and travelled to the Pacific Northwest, where he did manual work an= d met his first wife, Helene. In late 1954 they returned to Black Mountain, where he studied under Charles Olson (Dorn's first published work was the pamphlet What I See in the Maximus Poems) and graduated in 1955 with Robert Creeley as one of his examiners. After two years of further travel the family settled in Washington state. Their life there, on the edge of poverty, is vividly portrayed in Dorn's first prose book, The Rites of Passage (later republished as By The Sound). By 1959 they were in New Mexico, and at the end of 1961 moved to Pocatello, where Dorn taught at the University of Idaho until the middle of 1965. Donald Allen's anthology The New American Poetry (1960) included some of Dorn's early poems, but his first book The Newly Fallen was not published until 1961 by Amiri Baraka (then LeRoi Jones)'s Totem Press in New York. Three years later the same press published Hands Up! Poems from this period, so clear, moving, unromantic and filled with the memories of his hard early life -- On the Debt My Mother Owed to Sears RoeBuck, for example -- echoed not only in the United States, but across the Atlantic. In the summer of 1965 Dorn and the photographer Leroy Lucas collaborated on The Shoshoneans: The People of the Basin Plateau -- a book too long out-of-print which anticipated the now fashionable interest in all things Native American, and gracefully left the last words not to the authors, but to Clyde Warrior, an activist. That autumn, at the invitation of Donald Davie, the family arrived in England where, with a year's break, Dorn was to teach at the new University of Essex until 1970. Dorn arrived already aware of the work of young British poets such as Tom Pickard and Lee Harwood, and he had corresponded for some time with J.H.Prynne ( who accompanied the Dorns on their trans-atlantic liner). The American poet Tom Clark was a graduate student at Essex and shared many of Dorn's interests. Creeley, Olson and other visitors passed through the various flats and houses in Colchester and Wivenhoe. On the faculty was Gordon Brotherston, and Dorn began with him a series of collaborative translations of Latin American poetry that continued for decades. He met Jennifer Dunbar, his second wife. In London there was a lively small press scene and Stuart and Deirdre Montgomerys' Fulcrum Press published two collections of poems: Geography (1965), and The North Atlantic Turbine (1967). And Dorn began to write Gunslinger, one of the major North American long poems, first published as a sequence of books while in progress and finally as one volume in 1975, the year after its completion. Those years saw the Dorns in Chicago, in Mexico, and, with occasional breaks, in San =46rancisco. Dorn's early newspaper experience and his work in the Print Sho= p at Black Mountain combined in the tabloid Bean News, with contributions by Prynne and other correspondents. His neighbour Holbrook Teter's old linotype machine, held together with wire, produced the type for this, and for the complete Gunslinger, while Teter's partner Michael Myers drew the elegant cover for Recollections of Gran Apacher=EDa, Dorn's next book. In the autumn of 1977 Dorn began to teach at the University of Colorado in Boulder where, in 1980, he and his wife Jennifer started Rolling Stock (motto: If it moves, print it!), a newspaper sized journal that encompassed their many interests (including a delightful golf column by Nick Sedgwick) and ran throughout the decade. Still happy to work with his hands he built his own workroom with scrap timber. The academic world didn't escape his pen... Captain Jack's Chaps (1983), is an hilarious account of the MLA conference in Houston, and he ended the decade with Abhorrences (1990), a collection of short, savage observations. During his last years he continued to travel... in Montana, in Wyoming.. and to write (even a Country and Western song) with undiminished energy. An exchange year teaching in the south of France, at Montpellier, sparked a new interest in the Cathars and Simon de Montfort. It is thanks to Nicholas Johnston's Etruscan Books that some of his later work is in print in Britain. Dorn suffered fools not at all, and sloppy thinking not for a moment: a lonely position at the best of times, and one that made him almost persona non grata in the current literary and academic climate of his homeland. For anyone interested to see how wit, intelligence and a dispassionate eye can survive through pain, I suggest reading Chemo du Jour (Denver Quarterly, Spring 99) ... .the Clinton impeachment seen through chemotherapy. A line in a note this morning from the Swansea-born poet Doug Lang comes to mind: "When I first read his work, in 1970, it changed my idea about what poetry could be." He died at home, in his own bed, with his family beside him, in the West: a pure American who didn't go crazy. Fools can sleep easier. Edward Merton Dorn, poet and teacher: born Villa Grove, Illinois, USA, 2 April 1929. Married Helene Buck (one son). Married Jennifer Dunbar (one son, one daughter); died 10 December 1999, Denver, Colorado USA. *** A Fate of Unannounced Years I will have to pick my cluster of grapes in this country, after everyone else has gone to Korcula or Spain. It will be strange here, walking through the parks, the folding chairs gone, the meandering lovers and old women in their Sunday hats gone; an empty air, and a peaceful kind of rest. =46inding myself in america slowly walking around the deserted bandstand, waiting for the decade, and the facetious new arrivals. --Edward Dorn *** Tribe My tribe was lowdown struggling day labor Depression South Eastern Illinois just before the southern hills start to roll toward the coal country where the east/west morainal ridges of Wisconsin trash pile up at the bottom of the prairie, socially a far midwest recrudescence of Appalachia my grandfather French Quebecois Master pipefitter in the age of steam Indian fifty percent, very French who didn't derogate himself as a breed, showed none of those tedious tendentious tendencies. Came down from Chebanse, from the Illinois Central in Iroquois County, to the Chicago & Eastern Illinois line's division at Villa Grove in one of the Twenties boomlets, the last precipitous edges of the great devolvment These forebears on my mother's side owned a nice clapboard house in old town where I was brought up off and on during the intensity of the depression nomadism, wandering work search, up and down the bleak grit avenues of Flint, following other exodus relatives, Belgian in-laws from another French connexion Michael Moore-land from the beginning manmade poisons in the cattle feed way before Creutzfeldt-Jacob disease and angry cows-- governments always conspire against the population and sometimes this is not even malice; just nothing better to do. I'm with the Kurds alright-- World Leaders can claim what they want about terror, even as they wholesale helicopter gunships to the torturers--even as they lie like Clinton and his crazy battle-axe Secretary of State. But I'm as proud of my tribe as if I were a Kurd, my pure Kentucky English great grandma-- it would take more paper than I'll _ever have_ to express how guiltless and justified I feel. --Ed Dorn ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:33:25 -0700 Reply-To: Laura.Wright@Colorado.EDU Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wright Laura E Subject: new chapbooks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit New from Poetry New York: Near To by Mark DuCharme Hide: what's difficult by Laura Wright for more info, http://members.tripod.com/~PNY_journal/ ------------------ "I would sooner read a timetable or a catalogue than nothing at all." -W. Somerset Maugham Laura E. Wright Norlin Acquisitions (303) 492-8457 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:35:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: looking @ poetix MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On the way in to work, i was reading the really lovely and useful new Roof book, poetics@ ...... It collects posts from this list, and is superbly edited by Joel K. Herewith, scattered thoughts; not especially deep. 1. Someone mentioned recently the oddness of producing a hardcopy, ol' fashioned book from internet text... This is true, but once one is reading it, it's clear that this is not unlike collecting essays or whatever: on one level it is primarily a *selection* function; i had read some of these posts in the archive 3 or 3 and a half years ago, when first subscribed myself to the List; but this volume focuses on certain threads in a productive and helpful way ; of course there are other interesting levels, to the project of wrapping paper around the photons of the cyber-nonplace.... But on the simplist level this is a helpful thought-provoking project.... 2. i was reading the long exchange between Ron Silliman and Steve Evans, much of which i'd seen before on the archives, and it is one of the high points in the history of the list; this is the one where they somewhat hesitantly designate two "generations" called G1 and G2 and discuss them. 3. Among the main frames of reference in that particular exchange, is the (in)famous Apex of the M manifesto, and the group behind it is a major point of reference as well... Given the salience of that group and their particular ideological framework at that time here on the list, i am somewhat surprised to realize that that whole set of questions, and that group qua group and their ideas about religion and spirituality in relation to nonmainstream writing, so not seem to have had any further public visibility..... Maybe i just haven't been in the right places to see it.... Can anyone enighten me about the further Adventures of the M??? It seems as though the rather abrupt disappearance of their flagship magazine, after a pretty brief existence (i was told it was partly a matter of losing the necessary funding, but the whole story was foggy to me) caused their entire project to disappear like a cartoon magician.... Given the messianic tones of their self-presentation, this seems peculiar... 4. One of the main reflections occasioned by Joel's excellent book is, that the list is rather feeble these days compared to times in the past; i expect this to be fleeting: it has gone thru peaks and valleys again and again...But substantive (and fair and temperate) discussions of poetix ideas have been less in evidence in the last 6 months than maybe anytime i'm aware of.... Ideas are often tossed up, but there is very little solid exchange and extended examination of poetics concerns........ 5. Much happens between Ron and Steve in relation to another topic, one which Ron and many others have discussed at various times in other contexts: whether younger poets (the so called "G2") is lacking in a political or social dimension, and if so what that means... Their exchange remians very rich and i recommend it to folks who have not seen it; but one thing does occur, which constitutes at least my personal perspective on this issue: as we've talked about on the list before, both Ron and Barrett Watten have publicly questioned this depoliticization of the nonmainstream project... But as someone whose poltical edge in my poetry has always grown out of my concerns as an active socialist, it occurs to me that in part these critiques get things backward: If one is actively engaged in building the left, then that is likely to influence the shape and momentum of one's work as a poet... While socially critical poets and poetics have often helped (in a limited way) to create and perpetuate space for independent and rebellious thinking, it may be a little simplistic to feel that a poetics with political goals and edges can live by itself, without the poets having personal involvement with a real left.... At any event, that is the way politics flows within my life: being concerned with and involved with activism, sort of "comes first" logically and existentially; that my poetry and my ideas about poetics are socialist in nature, grows out of that... and doesn't seem all that problematic, at least on one (admittedly simplistic) level, that is very important as a day-to-day lived thing: i live in a certain part of the country; i'm in love with a certain woman; these things influence my thinking and practice; so does the fact that i am convinced of the need for a total renovation of my society in an antiracist, feminist and socialist direction. Yes questions about the political function of form get real complicated from that point on.... But when i read a superb debate like that between RS and SE, about why younger poets are not as social and political in their ideas and practice, as the wave of the 1970s, i feel that one part of the puzzle is: look to their lives, to what's important to them day to day; ... it may be not only unrealistic, but even undesireable, to ask poets to focus on politics only or mainly *in their work* ... if they care about it in their lives, it seems likely that it will find incarntions in their words... Anyway, go read the book: it is fun and functional.... -mark ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:39:53 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Bookstore Sosh MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the early seventies I liked it (initially) when Bookstores identified poets by "origin" - particularly new writing coming from new sources with fresh &/or radical views (woman, black, Asian, Latino, etc.) and even did my own book shelves something in that manner (Black Mountain, New York School, Moderns, SF Bay Area (and all the various sub-groupings of that!) African, surrealists, etc. But a few decade later (as good writers got more identified by their writing rather than their group), I became pro-Alphabet I like the chance associations. Baudelaire spine to spine with Ted Berrigan, etc. On the other hand - when I go into out-of-print book search engines, one has to go to hell and back through hundreds of books (so it seems) by Stephen Vincent Benet before you find Stephen Vincent, as I remain. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:26:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Summi Kaipa Subject: happi-, sad-, fearless- nesses In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed a poetry without human-ness informing it? take out all nesses & it gets quite boring. sad-ness that as an upper caste-er you cannot play with the lower caste-er. as though the rules, once again, impede the progress of the upper castes. a yuppie couple in san francisco moves into an industrial "live/work" space and then begins to call the police to complain about the noise. perhaps what the sun can't reach (this is a more universal saying than you might imagine for it exists in many Indian languages too--i've certainly heard it in telugu) are the innards/nesses which you so easily dismiss. sumana siva kaipa caste-less-ness? At 02:28 PM 12/14/99 -0700, you wrote: >I open up the computer and I find myself back in my old village, with the >same cowshit. Whiteness/Blackness/Brown-ness/Pink-ness/and all mess of >nesses, race, identity, ethnicity, whatever you want to call it. Let >poetry be poetry. It does not need a caste. I recall back in the >cobra-infested, mosquito-danced village in Nepal where I was born and >raised how, when a kid was born, the priest had the sole/soul authority to >name it. I am Hom not because my parents wanted me to be Hom but because >the priest decided so, because they got the credentials, not you not me. >And the last name always gives the caste which gives the nature. I >remember one day my mother telling me not to play with the children of >other caste. >Can we play now? Can all of us play, or do we have to have find out from >the priests how to judge? Do we first have to know the >caste/tribe/ethnicity/class/gender/color/sexual orientation/the dinner >they eat/how fat they are to "understand" their work? Yes I understand >it's helpful but to a very lesser degree. The typical people in my village >say, "Where the sun can't reach poets easily reach." (Ravi napugne thaonma >kavi pughchhan.) When I look in the face of poetry it does not know color, >race, bank account, etc. >So here I am on the World Wide Web reaching everybody's mouth in >cyberspace, all these poets from universities, especially America--The Big >Place, the House of the High Priest--and as we say in Nepal, it's Back To >Mangalamon! > >best, >Hom. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 11:27:49 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Prynne Comments: cc: bstefans@randonhouse.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Re Brian Stefans' intelligent post yesterday: If the New Yorker published Prynne in great abundance, how would this be seen? After a while people would say that Prynne had been co-opted, that "of course the New Yorker publishes Prynne, but not the numerous other poets it should publish." Just as the New Yorker has published Asbhery for the past twenty years. This is not seen as a sign of the New Yorker's hipness, but, as it were, of a certain lack of hipness of Ashbery himself--he's the sort of poet who writes for the New Yorker. So there is a sort of Asbhery of the "right" and an Asbhery of the "left." The Ashbery of Vendler and Bloom and the Ashbery of Perloff, etc... Interestingly enough, one of the poets nominated for this prize is John Koethe, an excellent poet though derivative of the more accessible, New Yorker side of Ashbery. Which brings me back to the Lehman book. Isn't it sort of the New York school of the right that appears in this book? Lehman himself represents the legacy of the New York school when filtered through an essentially conservative viewpoint. for example the cute villanelle in that big Norton Postmodern anthology... Jonathan Mayhew jmayhew@ukans.edu _____________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:36:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: No Longer Contemporary MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well it appears Silliman and Bernstein and all those old fogeys have finally acheived historicity (or had it thrust on 'em)-- This text appears in the new catalog from Univeristy Press of New England: "Founded in 1971, and internationally famous as the formost publisher of scholarly work on Ezra Pound and the Pound tradition, National Poetry Foundation is dedicated to publishing the language poets, Black Mountain school, and Beat poets, as well as contemporary work." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:32:14 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Organization: e.g. Subject: Re: sociology of bookstores MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I was in a Borders the other day -- a poetry reading was my excuse -- looking for a book on the Huns. Lo, I found significant amounts of poetry in the History section, which is subcategorized by time: classical, below the Loeb Classics Library, and next to that, Medieval Studies, etc. Even Powell's is divided this way, but at least "the classics" are next to the poetry. Literary Theory, in the center of a u-shaped Literature section, had some of the "missing" Philosophy. I think it is ironic that ideas are being redivided by the "common" threads people seek, but it is a significant marketing tool. My mom reports that jobs in the classifieds used to be categorized "male" and "female". As for the Grolier, I went out of my way to get there the last time I was in Boston, quickly grabbed a lot of stuff, and then Louisa was very disappointed, since unbeknownst to me, there was a big 1/2 off sale. Which led me to wonder, if she didn't want to sell anything at a discount, why was she having a sale? She will order by e-mail: E-Mail the Louisa Solano at the Grolier Bookshop grolierpoetrybookshop@compuserve.com Visit the Grolier Bookshop Web Site http://world.std.com/~jpwilson/grolier.html Regards, Catherine Daly cadaly@pacbell.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:24:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Loss =?iso-8859-1?Q?Peque=F1o?= Glazier Subject: Report on the Electronic Poetry Center, Dec. 1999 Comments: cc: Charles Bernstein Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable EPC REPORT -- POETICS LIST December, 1999 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- The Electronic Poetry Center, now after almost six years of operation, has established itself internationally, nationally, and at UB as a significant web-based resource for poetry and is one of UB's most visible digital projects. We wanted to give a report on the EPC, including some information not easily available. Please contact us if you would like more information. Loss Peque=F1o Glazier, EPC Director Charles Bernstein, EPC Executive Editor Statistics Based on November, 1999, statistics: Annual hits per year: 7.5 million (or about 21,000 per day) Our most popular section is the author pages, but there is significant activity on the entire site.=20 Total annual hits to all our on-line syllabi: 22,000 (about 60 a day) The Poetics Program home page gets about 20,000 hits per year, and the= Program description about 2,500 (or about 7 per day).=20 November visitors came from the U.S., and over 90 foreign countries (full= list at the end of this message). New Some new links and features at the EPC include: - An Evening with Robert Creeley in Real Video (forthcoming) - The EPC Electronic Poetry page (forthcoming) - Impulsive Behavior Andrews, Torres, Bernstein in Real Video - Samuel Delany Author Page - Lyn Hejinian Author Page=20 - Joanne Kyger Author Page - Ted Berrigan Author Page=20 - William Burroughs Author Page=20 - Ethnopoetics at the Millennium (Jerome Rothenberg)=20 - Three Paris Elegies (Rothenberg)=20 - Tinfish #7 - Deluxe Rubber Chicken #4 Please visit the EPC (http://epc.buffalo.edu/) and select "New" for these= and other recently-listed items! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- International Use of the EPC November visitors came from the U.S., and over 90 foreign countries (in= order of frequency): United Kingdom Canada United States Australia Germany United Arab Emirates Sweden Japan France Netherlands Brazil New Zealand Italy Norway Argentina Singapore Finland Belgium Austria Spain Mexico Switzerland Denmark Malaysia Ireland Poland Russian Federation South Africa Thailand Indonesia Greece Georgia Israel Taiwan South Korea Saudi Arabia India Croatia Hungary Trinidad and Tobago Czech Republic Turkey Portugal Hong Kong China Iceland Estonia Romania Morocco Slovenia Ukraine Peru Yugoslavia Uruguay Chile Colombia Lebanon Jordan Dominican Republic Bulgaria Slovak Republic Pakistan Tadjikistan Nicaragua Bermuda Venezuela Latvia Luxembourg Philippines Kazakhstan Vatican City State Bosnia-Herzegovina Former USSR Lithuania Costa Rica Moldavia Mozambique Malta Faroe Islands Uganda San Marino Dominica Kenya Bahamas Iran Sri Lanka=20 Brunei Darussalam Belarus Christmas Island Cyprus Ecuador International Kyrgyzstan Qatar ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- END OF REPORT ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:58:04 -0800 Reply-To: degentesh@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Katie Degentesh Organization: Pretty good Subject: class stand MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kathy: Looks to me as if the fact that you're used to being "personally attacked" for insisting on the importance of class issues in poetry has left you a bit defensive. I'm not arguing for the 'divorce' of sociopolitics and poetry -- I just don't think codependence is healthy. And, for you and everyone else, just to clarify once again: the theme of my original post wasn't "who cares about class" but "why is class the main concern on a poetics list?" As I said in a private post to Kathy (her original response was sent to me only and forwarded to the list a day or so later; I didn't keep a copy of what I sent her privately, so I must paraphrase): I completely agree that 'class/race/gender/blah blah blah' does infuse the writing of everyone who writes. But, as Leonard pointed out, if class is a part of poetics, it doesn't follow that a discussion of class is automatically a discussion of poetics, and focusing solely on class when discussing poetics is like wearing blinkers -- they may be differently configured than the blinkers of those who, in KLS' words, stick their "head in the sand, in effect saying 'don't talk about things like racism that make me uncomfortable,'" but they're still blinkers. To pick any one filter through which all poems must be processed is extremely limiting -- to go from the limitations of one particular class (e.g., the "administration of culture") to an arena in which a poet's capital-c Class is the primary concern when evaluating his or her work is barely an improvement. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 15:29:53 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: Lucy House Preview Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Lucy House: an anthology of prose is under construction now right now you can read new prose by Liz Waldner Susan M. Schultz Cydney Chadwick Brenda Coultas by clicking the URL below. ___________________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell Double Lucy Books & Outlet Magazine http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 15:04:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Unmatched parenthesis in address field. From: Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV administrator Subject: sorry for the multi-address Comments: To: AAAA-file , adam powell , AdM , alan golding , allen bramhall , amick boone , Anne Garrison , Anne Tardos , annie finch , "apg) brian mcgrath" , "apg) colleen dunne" , "apg) dana" , "apg) django [@grindstone]" , "apg) karen" , "apg) maryanne del gigante" , "apg) randolini della pruntti" , "apg) tedd \"Mr. Nipples\" louis-franzian III" , "apg) trucky spice" , "apg) Wrbkkr" , "apg) zac denton" , "artnews-@la" , ashee nikore , "B.O.B aka \"Fresh Frump\"" <8bob@isomedia.com>, bernadette mayer , bert , bill , Bill Freind , brian 13 , brian lucas , bruce andrews , Camille Martin , catherine daly , cathy wagner , charles alexander , charles bernstein , christopher shultis , Craig Watson , dan waber , Dar , david kellogg , david p miller , davidantin , diane ward , Douglas Messerli , emily g , Emily West Bimbo , Erwin Ludis , Franklin Bruno , Garrett , Glass Pockets , Guy Bennett , Gwyn McVay , "H.T." , Hank Lazer , Harold Teichman , henry , IXNAY/Chris , Jackson Mac Low , Jacques Debrot , James Sherry , Jeff Clark , jena osman , Jerrold Shiroma , jill stengel , Jim Leftwich , Joel Kuszai , Johanna Drucker , josh may , Joshua , Joshua Beckman , Julie Newton , "K.Angelo Hehir" , Ken Ketner , Kent Johnson , Kevin Brosnan , kevin killian , kowalski , Lavender Man , luigi bob drake , Madeline Gins , magoo , Marjorie Perloff , Mark Wallace , marla , Martha Ronk , matthew farley , Matty Bisquit , "michael zapruder (Ace Meteorologist)" , MOM , Morgan the Magnificent , MUSIKEION , Nathaniel Tarn , NORabcs , Norma Cole , paul silvia , Peirce-L , pete spence , Peter Dale Scott , peter ganick , poetix-MODERATOR , "Pomerantz, Aaron" , rebecca wolff , Regina , Richard Harrington , Robert Creeley , robt cheatham , Rod Stasick , ron silliman , Ron Silliman , s i l e n c e , S I List , sandy feinstein , Scott MacLeod , secussa , sheila lintott , Sheila Murphy , Shoestring , skip fox , spencer , SS Oval , stephen cope , stephen ellis , steve evans , stuart , Susan Holbrook , Susan Howe , sylvester pollet , Terry Harpold , Thom Taylor , Tracy G , Vangelisti , Zachar <113335.1772@compuserve.com>, Everyone , danalisalustig@hotmail.com, "Hyman, Rebecca" , "Lowther,John" , teddian@poetic.com, Brian Lucas , kali6bop@earthlink.net, no66am@mindspring.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain my apologies to anyone who is uninterested in this it was forwarded to me by poet sheila murphy and ive looked at it a bit --- it seems on the up and up to the limited extent that i can tell from looking at it --- i made it the page that comes up automatically when i pull up the web, then i can give it a click cdnt hurt.. (cd it?) > Subject: HUNGER > > Quite clever of the UN to do this. Go to the Hunger Site at the UN. All > > you do is click a button and somewhere in the world some hungry person > > gets a meal to eat, at no cost to you. The food is paid for by corporate > > sponsors (who gain advertising in the process because you see their > >logo). All you do is go to the site and click. But you're only allowed > > one click per day. So spread the word to others. Visit the site and pass > > the word. > > http://www.thehungersite.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:26:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Gitin Subject: Re: quaint MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You do know, David, its more common variant, what it is a man seeks, and rebuffed, often in anger calls a lady? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 15:51:35 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Christopher L. Filkins" Subject: Re: yes, by Doctor Leopold Konninger Comments: cc: sondheim@panix.com In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit bravo nikuko! i can see your toes as they were feathers on the moon! > From: Alan Sondheim > Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:22:06 -0500 > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: yes, by Doctor Leopold Konninger > > \ > > > yes twirling_nikuko_! > zz; head -200 zz > yy; pico yy > > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! twirling_nikuko_! > > - by Doctor Leopold Konninger > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:21:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Dorn@EPC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Loss Glazier has just put up a Dorn page at the EPC, featuring Tom Rawoth's obituary in the Independent (posted to the list by Keith Tuuma), along with a reproduction of the obit as it appeared in the Independent; a link to the Guardian obituary (which I posted on the list); plus a short note from Tom Raworth (sent via Robert Creeley). You can find a link to this page at the bottom of the EPC's home page or go direct: http://epc.buffalo.edu/documents/obits/dorn/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 16:29:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Kimmelman, Burt" Subject: Series on New Media at NJIT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain If you are in the physical/material neighborhood, then please do attend a series on New Media to be presented at New Jersey Institute of Technology (presenters will be: Diane Greco, Chris Funkhouser, Tina La Porte, and Stephanie Strickland). Details can be found here: http://eies.njit.edu/~kimmelma/newmedia.html. - Burt Kimmelman kimmelman@njit.edu http://eies.njit.edu/~kimmelma ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 01:58:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Intelligent Life Screen Savers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII \ Intelligent Life Screen Savers I foresee, by 2020, the creation of fully implemented Intelligent Life Screen Savers (ILSS); these work on hi-giga/low-terahertz desktop compu- ters carrying efficient evolutionary programs; the carrying capacity of the screen savers will be in gigahertz at a minimum. The ILSS will create artificial life forms at a high rate of speed; evolution will guarantee fast-forward generations flickering at, at least, a megahertz/second rate. It should be possible for full consciousness to develop within the first twenty minutes of standby; the life forms produced will perceive the ILSS as a local homeland, worth defending - but such actions are always already foreclosed by the desktop owner playing, for example, a game of chess on the Internet, necessitating many minutes of intense concentration, fol- lowed by a few furious mouse-clicks. The user, by reactivating the screen and canceling the ILSS, will have also eliminated those life-forms which have been created, living at high speed, developing their own cultured environments, memoirs and histories. Theories of inflationary universes might abound, only to be destroyed, along with the rest of the cultural debris, in the split second the ILSS retreats to the background, the clumsy programs interfacing with the clumsy users. However, it may also be possible for the ILSS only to go into quiescence, saving such forms and environments from one active session to the next. Surely the forms will learn methods of obscuring their tracks; like worms or viruses, they will exist within the interstices of hard drives, until the final crash. On the other hand, like Star Trek beaming, they may re- constitute themselves across the Net, invisibly burrowing, reappearing elsewhere, on other screens, other ILSS homelands, always on the run. But I think not, and meditate on the fast-forward evolution and full con- sciousness - development of whole cultures, economies, interactions - only to be thwarted by the next insipid movement of the mouse, click of the keyboard, new worlds lost forever ... __________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 22:21:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerrold Shiroma Subject: Small Press List @ Duration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This weeks Small Press List is up & running @ duration press. Given that the deadline for the next list would be New Years Day, I will be giving this round a month's go. Therefore, the deadline for the next posting will be January 14th. I will make announcements as time approaches. Best wishes to all for the coming year. Jerrold www.durationpress.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:58:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kristin Dykstra Subject: new Stein list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apologies if this already came around-- --On Thu, Dec16, 1999 2:02 PM -0800 "Sonja Streuber" wrote: > Dear all, > > Stein-L is finally up (as of 4:30 a.m. today--blame too much Dr. Pepper > for this!), and I would like to know where you think it would be > appropriate to announce this new list (on the art of Gertrude Stein). I > am bringing fliers to the MLA convention, but I'd really love to get the > word out much earlier, so any information about other modernism/queer > theory/women writers etc. lists and/ or audiences that would be > potentially interested would be highly welcome. > > Thanks! > > Sonja > > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- > Sonja H. Streuber shstreuber@ucdavis.edu > Editor, _time sense_: a quarterly on the art of Gertrude Stein_ > http://www.tenderbuttons.com > Department of English * U of California * 1 Shields Ave. * Davis, CA 95616 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 15:08:10 -0500 Reply-To: joris@csc.albany.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: New Books Comments: To: "poetryetc@listbot. com (E-mail)" , "British Poets (E-mail)" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just out, these four items: 1: _h.j.r._ by Pierre Joris, OtherWind Press, Ann Arbor, 1999. $8.00 ISBN 0-9626046-4-X. Available in the USA from SPD (http://www.spdbooks.org/) and in the UK from Peter Riley Books (priley@dircon.co.uk) 2: _Towards a Nomadic Poetics_ by Pierre Joris, Spanner #38, summer 1999. Available from Peter Riley (as above) or from Allen Fisher / Spanner / 14 Hopton Road Hereford HR1 1BE in the UK or from the author (see address below) in the USA. This is the Gutenbergian version # 2.0b of the manifessay / companionpiece to the poems of _h.j.r._ 3: _Out/Takes_ by Pierre Joris, Backwoods Broadsides, Chaplet Series #46 ($1.00) [Backwood Broadsides c/o Sylvester Pollet, 963 Winkumpaugh Rd. Ellsworth ME 04605-9529] 4: _Empedocles's Sandal_ by Habib Tengour, translated from the French by Pierre Joris. Duration Press, Sausolito, 1999. $5.00 (http://www.durationpress.com) Born in 1947 in Mostaganem, Eastern Algeria, raised on the Arab and Berber voices of marketplace storytellers, Habib Tengour has lived between Algeria and Paris ever since. Trained as an anthropologist and sociologist, he has taught at universities in both countries, while emerging over the years as one of the Maghreb's most forceful and visionary francophone poetic voices of the post-colonial era. The work has the desire and intelligence to be epic, or at least to invent narrative possibilities beyond the strictures of the Western / French lyric tradition, in which his colonial childhood had schooled him. Core to it is thus the ongoing invention of a Maghrebian space for and of writing, the ongoing quest for the identification of such a space and self. Besides a range of lyrical works - works that always stretch the imagination of what the lyrical can be - such as Schistes de Tahmad 2 (1983), Tengour's main books are the narratives Le Vieux de la Montagne (called a "Relation," 1983), the retelling of the story of that most famous Arab triumvirate of Omar Khayyam, Hassan as-Sabbah and Nizam al-Mulk, Sultan Galiev, (1985) and two prose narratives, L'Epreuve d l'arc (1990) and Gens de Mosta (1997). His work has been translated into German and Italian. I had hoped to be able to also announce that my translation of _Threadsuns_ by Paul Celan would be out from Sun&Moon, but at this point it would seem that the book won't be ready before January/February 2000. May you all have a happy fin-de-siècle! Pierre ________________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris The postmodern is the condition of those 6 Madison Place things not equal to themselves, the wan- Albany NY 12202 dering or nomadic null set (0={x:x not-equal x}). Tel: (518) 426-0433 Fax: (518) 426-3722 Alan Sondheim Email: joris@csc.albany.edu Url: ____________________________________________________________________________ _ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:01:48 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: minor honking Comments: cc: subsubpoetics@listbot.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" just rec'd my contributor's copies of the Outlaw Bible of American Poetry (thunder's mouth press, edited by alan kaufman). check out Bob Kaufman pp63ff, overview provided by yours truly. they spelled my name "damun," and i got the mariners' unions mixed up (i finally understand a bit the tangled politics of that scene, after over a decade of thinking the wrong thing) but otherwise it's nice to see my name in print in such a venue and for such a purpose. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 22:41:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: rebecca wolff Subject: Luscious Jackson Nothwithstanding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Brian, Geeez. Where to start. First: I see what you're saying. And I agree with lots you said, or at least certainly agree that these are good arguments as to how the affirmative action analogy is lame, and how it is not to be assumed to be a good aim for any ray of light to give credence to whatever power the New Yorker's poetry editor might wield. On the other hand-and this is the not-so-big idea behind Fence, which I edit, and which does attempt the kind of "aesthetic merging" that is by necessity and intention superficial, in that it only entails juxtaposing poems on paper inside a product-I also want poems that I like to have a wide audience. The New Yorker has significance to me as a landmark--not cultural but commercial--and irritant. My father reads the New Yorker. When my father (tries to) talks to me about poetry, he talks about the last poem he read in the New Yorker. A whole lot of people--the large constituency you spoke of--try to read poems by reading what's in the New Yorker. I don't have figures, but I do have the backlogged memory of dozens of frustrating exchanges with general readers trying to engage by bringing up the New Yorker in conversation when they hear that I write poetry. I am interested in the general reader. So I just can't be interested in ignoring this entity, or others like it. I am more interested in a hampered, handcuffed attempt to engage with it, however much that may be inherently on its terms rather than on terms of my own making. I do not make my home, write poetry, nor have my job, family, circle of acquaintances, etc., solely, or even mostly, within the experimental poetry community. So if I want my poetry, and the poetry I care about, etc., to be a part of my world--and I do--then it's more fun for me to do what little actions I can (publishing, voting, reading, whining about the bad poetry in the New Yorker) to bring other people into contact with that poetry. I find the other model to be gratuitously alienating, when I have already gone through the alienation thing. Alice Quinn (poetry ed. of New Yorker) has a subscription to Fence. Fence is, among other things, an attempt to engage commercially with a hypothetical general reader, and to introduce or make available to that reader poetry--"experimental" and also just tricky/challenging/idiosyncratic--that is otherwise "kept from" that reader by systems already in place that take as starting points suggestions just such as the one you make by implying that there can be no fruitful interactions between these bodies of readers. Most interesting to me in your response is this: "A kind of thoughtless merging of poetics tends to gloss over the fact that there are very particular attitudes that some of these "radical" poets possess toward assimilation into the dominant culture, that it isn't just a game to want to reject certain types of identities and aesthetic closures, and that many of us feel that we could write great poems for the New Yorker on any given day but don't." I'm really undecided and occasionally bemused over the question of whether anything that is performed through the medium of poetry can have the effect of picking someone up and setting them down outside the dominant culture. It seems to me that we are all helplessly at play in the fields of the dominant culture. That may be even more cynical than the suggestion that "we" (those interested in certain kinds of poetry) ought to and must ignore and be ignored by it or be swallowed and spit out as glib poetry Gap ads. Luscious Jackson notwithstanding. How's that for a heartfelt (though I hope not to be perceived as taking your comments "personally" in the sense of taking affront; I appreciate your engagement with the whole shmegeggy) reaction. Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 14:26:59 -0500 From: "Stefans, Brian" Subject: Prynne Hi Rebecca, > It seems to me that this same argument could be used to suggest that affirmative action laws should be abolished. With all due respect (and this email isn't about you, just this idea), this doesn't strike me as a very good analogy, and indeed symptomatic of some thinking on how poetry is intended to effect culture (when such intensions are hinted at or stated). The New Yorker is hardly Congress, nor is it something one would think could be fetishized as "society" -- it's really a very specific magazine for a specific group of people, even if it's a very large group. If you start imagining it as some avuncular entity, some sort of big daddy (or mommy, either way) authority whose mind you hope to change, then you get into trouble (not to mention the fact that the New Yorker can go away, go bankrupt, if we want it to but society cannot). But part of the problem with these ideas of aesthetic merging -- i.e. lets break down the walls of these aesthetic camps and just meet halfway -- is precisely when it extends to places like the New Yorker, which has always been a non-entity and should remain that way, and when it is not truly in the service of a complexity of thought on these matters which, we agree, are so important (and if "they" don't seem prepared or willing to keep up with "us," that's not our concern). As it is, the New Yorker can change in a split second, as it did when Tina Brown took over (she's gone, of course): in their first (or one of their first) issues after she landed, there was a gorgeous full page picture of W.H. Auden in a long overcoat in the snow staring, melancholic as it's possible to perceive behind his drapes of wrinkles (here I'm getting belle-lettristic) with a very long poem on the facing page, something like the In Praise of Limestone but I can't remember exactly. Now, anyone could have looked at that gesture of hers as a "sign of something new" or a "change for the better" as if it were on her hit list of cosmetic changes along wit Art Spieglman covers and (was she responsible for this?) Peter Scheldahl. I have, really, no idea how she followed up that gesture though I don't remember too many more photos of poets, nor better poetry, coming in it's wake. What's striking is that Auden, for whatever the readers of the New Yorker knew, could have just as easily been described as a "Cambridge don" (of course he wasn't) -- in other words, he's English, an amenable exotic, and despite his leftism and flirtation with experimental poetics and, one might say, his homosexuality, he wasn't threatening to the New Yorker readers sense of culture (he wrote opera librettos, too) and their mastery over it. Anyway, all I'm saying is that, in my opinion, there's no reason to even want to change the New Yorker, nor to equate it with any sort of cultural legitimacy in terms of what this loosely defined "we" are trying to do. The New Yorker will never spread a greater understanding of experimental poetics unless they know how to sell it or assimilate it into whatever else it is they sell (culture, events, opinion), which of course they won't (because of idiots like us). In that way, it's hardly a "ray of light" but a rather wide swath of darkness -- not neutral even, but kind of negative (though on any other day I'd say it's pretty neutral). I think Prynne should win that award, whatever the hell it is, because I can't get over how great some of those poems are and that, in general over here, we don't know much about him -- it's like Hopkins or Dickinson coming to light. But it would be sad to see that the first widely disseminated writing on Prynne would be a fluff article in the New Yorker, but then again, if they print one of his poems, Prynne seems prepared: his writing is almost armored against any easy discursive assimilation, while being so formally crystalline as to not "go gently" into the anonymity that the magazine seems to want to cloak its authors in, not to mention the chummy garbage they'd probably want to spread about him. Ok, this all sounds terrible cynical. Here's another example (my facts will be all wrong here), an English one, which had to do with Iain Sinclair's editing of the Palladin poetry series, which got books by folks like Allen Fisher and Bill Griffiths into the "mainstream." The books didn't sell all that well, the publisher decided to stop the series and pulped the entire print run -- not drop them in used book stores like, say, I do, or keep them in their attics for posterity or whomever might be interested, just destroyed them. "Their" laws are just too different from "ours" in this way. Another example: David Lehman has to write a book on poetry, and decides in the last chapter, while he had his moment behind the "bully pulpit", to get out all his grumpiness on the charlatans he feels have filled the shoes of immortals unjustly(one of his sestinas was rejected from L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E, I hear). He does this while answering a few calls, changing the ribbon in his typewriter and listening to Rachmaninov (like his heroes, right) -- in other words, here he is engaged in serious intellectual activity that affects, in direct and indirect ways, great numbers of people, and he doesn't care enough to think through his ideas, read any of the literature, etc, or to even quote from it adequately (only in censure), but has no scruples about weighing in with a moral judgment that, to those who don't know better, can be taken for the general opinion on things (like, "disco is out"). Ethics, ethics, ethics. So I go to Montreal a few months back and, trying to dig up some Earle Birney books (they didn't have them) discover that the only book I can find of "New York school" poetry in the stores in Lehman's! The essential continuity, throughout these examples, is that none of these central, big publishing outfits ever took the time to care about the work they were presenting in an effort to be hip; it's all very cynical and manipulative. Which is why Prynne is great: he's only had one or two "trade" books and the rest, I think, were small chapbooks; he doesn't write reviews far as I know, and I think there is a kind of built in auto-critical aspect to his poems, whereby they have very attractive, almost conservative (or "formal"), surfaces (they even look good hanging on a wall from across the room) but you can't simply breeze through them, follow the stately rhythms (they change constantly) nor do you just wait for the good jokes or accept them as some sort of "experience in language" -- his own little controversy with McCaffery over language poetics seemed to center around this aspect of the "play" of language, the semantic slippage, as providing a sort of ease for the reader rather than the difficulty he wanted. I think there's an ethical dimension to his "difficulty" and that part of it has to do with this relationship to other forms of literature -- mainstream, the media, whatever -- that don't trouble you into thought. It has a relationship to a variety of things, actually, and I don't claim to understand them all. But part of the problem with these ideas of aesthetic merging -- i.e. lets break down the walls of these aesthetic camps and just meet halfway -- is precisely when it extends to places like the New Yorker, which has always been a non-entity and should remain that way, and when it is not truly in the service of a complexity of thought on these matters which, we agree, are so important (and if "they" don't seem prepared or willing to keep up with "us," that's not our concern). The difference between two poor and ignored "experimental" writers in New York who don't write like each other is nothing compared to the difference between them and the writers that the New Yorker habitually tends to; then again, if the difference between those two (poor and ignored, etc.) writers is in their attitude to the New Yorker (standing in for other cultural institutions) it may in fact be a big difference and worth investigating. A kind of thoughtless merging of poetics tends to gloss over the fact that there are very particular attitudes that some of these "radical" poets possess toward assimilation into the dominant culture, that it isn't just a game to want to reject certain types of identities and aesthetic closures, and that many of us feel that we could write great poems for the New Yorker on any given day but don't. Artaud wrote that "all writing is pigshit," or something like that, and at about the same time (the first half of the century) Brecht was giving an important literary award to a poem about a local bicycling star (it was called something like "Hey! hey! the Iron Man!" -- that's not even close but something like that). Why do people do things like this? I don't know, but a lot of us are still doing this very thing in more subtle ways today -- being "moral exhibitionists" in some quasi-nihilistic manner, and our art and maybe in our lives -- and to think that it's because we are really scratching at the doors of Culture wanting to get in is missing something very important. I couldn't see Prynne as a "ray of light" for the New Yorker because, after all, he would refuse to go to their parties -- it's part of him not to be this light. "Good" gestures by the New Yorker confuse the point, especially when they transcend the words and actions of those they affect (in this case poets who aren't considered to possibly have social powrer of their own), though then again probably brings it to a head. Ah, the patronage issue again... 1930's anyone? I feel like I missed an earlier point, which had to do with the initial linking of social activism with changing the New Yorker, but if you graph out what exactly the entities are in these respective exchanges perhaps that's better -- use colored markers. Well, but anyway, my apologies for using your very short email for this William Blake moment, but I had some free time today. Cheers, Brian ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:47:18 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Leslye Layne Russell Organization: Alliance for Creative Living Subject: Able Muse Review -- premiere issue announcement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Friend Alex Pepple asked me to post this announcement to this list. Layne Alex Pepple wrote: > The premiere issue of Able Muse -- > a review of metrical poetry, prose and arts, including a literary discussion > forum: listen to the poets reading their poems in Real Audio; visit the art > show by the featured artist, Misha Gordin; have a laugh or two at the Light > Verse section, & check out the literary/poetry forum. It's now online at: > > http://www.ablemuse.com > > Featured Poet: Beth Houston. > Featured Artist: Misha Gordin. > > Poetry: Andrea Hollander Budy, Patrick Daly, Rhina P. Espaillat, Steve > Harris, Mark Jarman, Len Krisak, Sandy McKinney, Karen Tellefsen, William > John Watkins. > > Book Review: Charlotte Muse. > Essay: Anthony Robinson. > Interview: Alex Pepple. > > Check it out, and, stop by the literary forum. > > ...Alex Pepple alex@plaxnet.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.sonic.net/layne A Quiet Place "In this rose light, time's door does not close." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 12:08:29 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: event postings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed We're sorry. Boulder, Colorado. >From: Damion Searls > >> LEFT HAND READING SERIES PRESENTS: >[...] > >> Thursday, December 16 at 8:30pm > >> Left Hand Books, 1825 Pearl Street, between 18th & 19th, above the >Crystal > >> Market. > >When advertising events on this list, can you be sure to put the city?! >(putting it in the message title would be even better). > >Thanks, >Damion Searls ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 19:45:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Traceroute Project URL MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The Traceroute Project - please participate if you can, December 31 - January 1. The URL for the trAceroute project at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk is http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/trace.htm Check it out when you have the chance. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 01:07:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Barry Smylie / Alan Sondheim collaboration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII quite near the Winter Solstice - check out http://24.64.186.222/alan/youwill.swf - Alan, Happy Holidays in the dark world ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 04:24:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Poetry Daily, British irony Comments: To: subsubpoetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My poem "about" snow, test marketing, and Vigdís Finnbogadóttir (the former president of Iceland) is at the Poetry Daily site today: http://www.poems.com/ and the title poem from Paul Hoover's TOTEM AND SHADOW (from yesterday) is in the archives--click on "Previously on PD..." from that main page. Somebody pointed me to a piece on British irony in _The Economist_: http://www.economist.co.uk/editorial/freeforall/current/index_xm3604.html Not sure whether that URL still works, but here's a bit (and I have the rest if anybody wants me to post it): "The British urge to puncture grandiose visions is captured in a (possibly apocryphal) story about Sir Oliver Franks, when he was Britain’s ambassador in Washington after the war. A journalist asked leading ambassadors what they desired in the coming year. The Russian ambassador mentioned the liberation of colonial peoples; the French ambassador spoke of a new era of peace and international co-operation. Sir Oliver expressed a desire for a small box of crystallised fruit." There's discussion of the supposed lack of irony in colonial outposts (as perceived by our man in Manila or Bangkok). So is irony a post-imperial luxury, part of the "management of decline"? * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * Rachel Loden http://www.thepomegranate.com/loden/hotel.html email: rloden@concentric.net * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:42:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Patrick" Subject: Re: Ed Dorn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Excerpts from Jeremy Prynne's eulogy, as it appeared in the Boulder Planet, 12/22/99. Bracketed comments by reporter Jim Sheeler: "It is always sad when a voice you know falls silent, but there are some voices who never fall silent. His voice will survive as long as his readers draw breath and turn the pages of his work." [Prynne stood over the site at Green Mountain Cemetery ... holding a rose from another. The rose was flown in from Italy, taken from the grave of Ezra Pound]. "We are here to pay our last respects to Ed Dorn. His profession, his task and his calling was to be a poet. They are not so usual in this day and age. His was a voice that was often angry. His words will continue to enrage as long as there is power for people to be enraged ... He was impeccable in his opposition. He was compelled never to take any shit from anyone ... Perhaps I shouldn't use that word. But sometimes you have to use the right word." _________________ Some of you may have seen this already as it was posted by Robert Kelly to the British poets list. It bears repeating, however: "Feeling simply, directly, sad about the death of Dorn, and testing one memory against the other, to offer you something that might stand up to the power of the news of him that came through from time to time, words from divers winds of how he held himself aloft above his sickness, wouldnt give it the time of day. In 1972 or so I was poet in residence at Cal Tech, amongst the scientists and anxious technocrats. Ed Dorn came to read, and gave one of his usual, wonderful, 24 minute assaults on the ordinary. The format permitted questions, and early on, a student I'd never met before asked, with ill-concealed contempt for poets and their no doubt suppositious theologies, "Mr Dorn, what do you believe in?" Ed paused for a very long time, fifteen seconds perhaps, looking at the student, his face fiercely unchanging, and then said, in a quiet voice, "Language." And that was the end of it. Even that audience was silenced. He surely kept the faith." Robert ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:49:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: roof books new title offer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Publisher's Weekly just published a review of the Roof Book's POETICS@: "the discussions of 'The Social Poem', of the controversy surrounding the lit-mag Apex of the M, and of gender in poetry and criticism, among others, are more exciting and brimming with ideas than almost any journalism or academic criticism. This collection will reward those readers diligent enough to meander among unfamiliar companions and notions, and makes a handy compendium of some of the more substantive goings-on for those in the know." ROOF BOOKS has made a special offer to this list and here it is again for those who missed it and still want to order-- ***** ROOF Books has just published two new titles: poetics@ edited by Joel Kuszai ($18.95/192pp) ? 133 e-mails from this list & Gorgeous Plunge by Michael Gottlieb ($11.95/96pp) ? new poetry ROOF would like to offer them to this list only for a substantial discount. Orders from members of this list can buy the books for: ******************************** poetics@ $15 & Gorgeous Plunge $9 including postage (which costs us $3) If you order both books, total cost including postage is $20 You'll save $14 To order, please send your check or money order with your mailing address to: Segue Foundation 303 East 8th Street New York, NY 10009 Contact: James Sherry 212-353-0555 jsherry@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 20:46:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Slaughter Subject: Mudlark Announcement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII New and On View: MUDLARK POSTER NO. 20 (1999) SEVEN POEMS by MICHAEL CADNUM Spread the word. Far and wide, William Slaughter _________________ MUDLARK An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics Never in and never out of print... E-mail: mudlark@unf.edu URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark Michael Cadnum is author of fifteen novels, including RUNDOWN (Viking), IN A DARK WOOD (Orchard Books), and SAINT PETER'S WOLF (Carroll & Graff). Cadnum has also published several collections of poetry, including THE CITIES WE WILL NEVER SEE (Singular Speech Press) and a picture book for children, THE LOST AND FOUND HOUSE (Viking). His sixteenth novel, THE BOOK OF THE LION, will be published by Viking in Spring 2000. Cadnum lives in Albany, California. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 22:22:24 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Angle Press Angle Press Subject: Angle Magazine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hello We should say quickly, and only because we're still receiving manuscripts, that Angle magazine has folded...in half...and is no longer publishing. And is defunct. Or no longer existing. We'd like to thank all the lovely people who contributed to all five of the issues. The press still operates. New things to come. Maybe "Athletic Writing." What do you say to that guttural cruller? Charmed, D.F. aka B.L. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 08:26:04 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: John Tranter Subject: Announcing Jacket # 9 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jacket is a free literary quarterly published on the Internet by Australian poet John Tranter. If you don't wish to receive these notices of new issues of Jacket (I send out about six per year), please say so, and I'll take your name off the mailing list pronto. If you know someone who'd like to receive these notices, please ask them to send me an email. - J.T. ........................................................................ "...and God comes up on the radar." Gig Elizabeth Ryan Just in time for Christmas reading! And as the year 2000 loomed over the horizon, the "hits" counter on Jacket's home page clicked over the 200,000 mark. Psychic! Join the throngs of happy customers; visit the new issue of Jacket via the homepage URL: http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/welcome.html featuring: * Tom Clark's obituary for poet EDWARD DORN (1929-1999) "... Maybe it's in part because he had a lonely and precarious beginning in life that later on Dorn always liked to surround himself with congenial company...The great honor of friendship he conferred on me was to number me as an outrider of that party of outriders, along with other diverse disparate friends." * REVIEWS: Andrea Brady on John Wilkinson's "Reverses" Robert Sheppard on Bob Cobbing, in honour of his 75th birthday Robert Sheppard on Ulli Freer Pete Smith on Jennifer Moxley Nathaniel Tarn reviews "Selected Non-Fictions" by Jorge Luis Borges, Eliot Weinberger (Translator), Esther Allen, Suzanne Jill Levine Mark Wallace on Carl Thayler's "Poems from Naltsus Bichidin" * P O E M S : Angie Angel Francisco Aragon Louis Armand Andrea Brady Pamela Brown Tom Clark Henry Gould Kate Lilley Geraldine McKenzie Ralph Monday Alice Pero Leonard Schwartz Robert Sheppard Carl Thayler * INTERVIEW : Australian poet and playwright Dorothy Hewett interviewed by Nicole Moore "...I can remember when I was living in Redfern, one of the jobs I was given was to organize women, so I thought, oh well, the obvious people to start with are the wives of the Communist Party activists, so I started calling on them all. And their husbands were furious, absolutely furious! How dare she come and interrupt our peaceful, domestic lives where the wife does everything and I go out to my meetings . . ." F E A T U R E S : * NEW! Seven early letters of Araki Yasusada by Tosa Motokiyu "...Do you have a wife? A question is repeated! Not I. I love a girl on a street of shops, third floor. In the later letter I will say of her. For presentness, I will tell you: her sexual hair is a whole forest, smelling after rain falling. It is very dark within there. A bird is singing. Bodies in piles are burning." * Robert Sheppard on Robert Sheppard: Twentieth Century Blues * NEW! Nathaniel Tarn: ON OCTAVIO PAZ . . . and the Future of Poetry "... now I believe our average poet, if it can survive, is lucky to be something like a liver fluke progressing through the guts of a sheep." * OLD! Great Moments in Literature No. 9 - New York City, 23 April 1951 - First successful test of "Poetry Machine" - with photo! - Hiram Bamburger's amazing "Linopentametron"!!! . . . and lots of refreshing graphics! ........................................................................ ...you can also sneak a preview peek at Issue #10 of Jacket , at: http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/jacket10/index.html . . . now partly built, and already featuring: Marjorie Welish: The Lyric Lately (a work-in-progress) Charles Bernstein: Introducing Barbara Guest Lytle Shaw: On Coterie: Frank O'Hara Thomas Bell on McCaffery and Rasula's "Imagining Language: An Anthology" Norman Finkelstein reviews Armand Schwerner and poems by Kate Lilley, Lytle Shaw, Pete Spence, and Nathaniel Tarn ........................................................................ Jacket is a free literary quarterly published only on the Internet by Australian poet John Tranter. All past and current issues are always available. Trim, taut and terrific - quick and quirky - no ads, no frames, no Java! If you like Jacket, please tell your friends. END from John Tranter, 39 Short Street, Balmain NSW 2041, Sydney, Australia tel (+612) 9555 8502 fax (+612) 9818 8569 Editor, Jacket magazine: http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/welcome.html Homepage: five megabytes of glittering literature, free, at http://www.alm.aust.com/~tranterj/index.html visit Australian Literary Management, at http://www.alm.aust.com/~lyntranter/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 01:16:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Kungupi Emes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII \ Kungupi Emes "Fun yidishe reyd ken men zikh nit opvashn in tsen vassern. Ten waters will not cleanse you of Jewish talk. Fun loyter hofenung ver ikh nokh meshuge. Overfeed on hope and you'll sicken with madness." (from Yiddish Proverbs, ed. Ayalti.) "Hej! hej! hej! Noa, hej! Noa, hej! Kanutpia, hej! Kanutpia, hej! Nihantsi suruchu kanutpia, hej! Kanutpani hitia, hej! Numbintinya, hej! Nihirseisaka, haketpia, hej! Noa, hej! Noa, hej! Kahetpia, hej! Nikasneiti, hej! Eitgamue, hej! Pingerati, hej! Maketi, hej!" (from Blood Revenge, War, and Victory Feasts among the Jibaro Indians of Eastern Ecuador, Karsten.) Hey, hey, hey, woman, hey, woman, hey, fuck, hey, fuck, hey, may the tsantsa grant the fuck, hey, fuck, hey, fuck, hey, fuck, fuck, hey, woman, hey, woman, hey, fuck, hey, let it happen, hey, so we'll do it, hey, let it be nice, hey, it's enough! "Az der Yid is gerekht, khapt er ersht di rekhte klep. When a Jew is right, that's when he gets a right good beating." "Shuara hiniwui, The enemy leaves the house! Awuimaipa, Don't let them escape! Ihuta, ihuta, ihuta, Lance them! Lance them! Lance them!" "A blinder ferd treft glaykh in grub arayn. A blind horse makes straight for the pit." "Masteitimi, They won't kill us! Mandoastatami, They won't take our lives! Wuittatai, They will retire! Hinikitai, We will be able to escape!" _________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 21:38:40 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: komninos zervos Subject: Re: Report on the Electronic Poetry Center, Dec. 1999 In-Reply-To: <4.0.2.19991216131942.01fa6e60@imap.buffalo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable congratulations, you do us all a great service by your existence. i feel a part of a community of poets globally. komninos At 01:24 P M 12/16/99 -0500, you wrote: >EPC REPORT -- POETICS LIST December, 1999 >---------------------------------------------------------------------------= - >--------- > >The Electronic Poetry Center, now after almost six years of operation, has >established itself internationally, nationally, and at UB as a significant >web-based resource for poetry and is one of UB's most visible digital >projects. >We wanted to give a report on the EPC, including some information not= easily >available. Please contact us if you would like more information. > >Loss Peque=F1o Glazier, EPC Director >Charles Bernstein, EPC Executive Editor komninos cyberpoetry site http://student.uq.edu.au/~s271502 komninos zervos lecturer in cyberStudies griffith university gold coast australia +61 7 55948602 k.zervos@mailbox.gu.edu.au ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:38:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: from Alan Sondheim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:52:56 -0500 (EST) From: Alan Sondheim Subject: more from the Doctor more from the Doctor - serration and the birth of language there's a mark in the sky there's a hole in my head there are plants in the sky that are doubled there's a spark in the fire there's a bone in my foot there are fields divided, quadrupled i slide word to word, i fly way up high, the signifier seems all too dead, but i know in my mind that is troubled, i'm decatecting, i knew, and it's dire, in the midst of the root of the sign in the wire, where plains and mountains are peopled, where mountains and people asserted against tribes of the plain and their tablets do you know what i mean when space is serrated, signs rustle against one another, codes are codes, signal loads, perforated in the language-formation of the other the analog smooths, integration's the rule across details, chaos, fractal recursions, while digital cuts, differentiation's the tool, noise explodes, language codes in incursions the serrated edge carries the meaning of grain of the voice, of the sign foreclosing on referent, in relation to body and pain, in relation to fundamental disclosing the tree has a branch always lending itself across the metaphysical sheet of assertion, self-organization lends tending, it's left the rest of the flesh to inversion serrations grasp and divide, they hold themselves taut in defining, meandering balks from side to side the subtext always declining, articulation is always reclining serrations repeating gives meaning to text against structured repetition in the real, this bursts through desire, body and sex, intercourse gives birth to the seal let it go, serrated rhymes carry the words to other spaces and places desired, think of nested times, think foreclosing surds, the tablets already are fired - Doctor Leopold Konninger ___________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:41:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: from Jim Andrews MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:10:14 -0800 From: Jim Andrews Subject: A L Y R I C M A I L E R at Defib this Sunday DEFIB, SUNDAY DECEMBER 19, NOON PST (19:00 GMT) Thomas Bell, Mike Kelleher and a l y r i c m a i l e r at Defib http://webartery.com/defib A L Y R I C M A I L E R Thomas Bell and Mike Kelleher are leading a project for the magazine a l y r i c m a i l e r featuring work by themselves and Jim Rosenberg, Loss Peque=F1o Glazier, Inna Kouper, Ted Warnell, Jim Andrews, Clemente Padin, and miekal and on the poetics of the field. As Thomas says: "In this context 'field' represents a space with height, width, and depth, filled (or emptied) of words or pictures. The concept has a history in 20th century poetics dating back to Futurism; is related to Olson's Composition by Field, and Duncan's hermetic studies; and is the space in which a true intertextuality might be imagined." The nine participants start out with their own work and then write toward the work of the others, re-writing and linking toward a loose net or field of texts relating in their own and related ways to this notion of the field. DEFIB Defib is webartery.com's live online web artist interview surf show. The live IRC sessions are recorded and the transcripts produced into hypertexts at http://webartery.com/defib/pastevents.htm. Tech requirements: a java enabled browser pointed at http://webartery.com/defib ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:44:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: from Kathy Lou Schultz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 23:13:08 -0800 Subject: Re: class stand From: "Kathy Lou Schultz" Please, Katie, no one has suggested -- least of all me -- that anyone should "focus solely on class when discussing poetics." The fact that you misread my posts and the Poetics List in general to such a high degree that you believe this to be the case, and that you make such statements as "ALL ANYONE EVER TALKS ABOUT IS CLASS" and "It might be good for you to get off your collective classes once in a while" indicates something akin to defensiveness on your part. The fact that you still seem to believe that discussing the "sociopolitics" of poetry is somehow separate from "formal" issues suggests to me that you just aren't getting it. And whoever said that I (or "we" the List) were focusing only on the "poet's class"? Why is it personal? What about reading the text? An example comes to mind here concerning critical practice: Houston's Baker's Modernism and the Harlem Rennaisance. Baker argues persuasively that the defining moment in African-American modernism is Booker T. Washington's 1895 address to the Negro exhibit of the Atlanta Cotton States and International Exposition, which Baker reads as an enactment of the performance of minstrelsy: "And it is, first and foremost, the mastery of the minstrel mask by blacks that constitutes a primary move in Afro-American discursive modernism" (17). This "mastery of form" is an example of radical "back talk" for the African-American speaker/writer. In learning to manipulate the dominant discursive practice -- which in this case was the vernacular -- Washington negotiated an effective method of black speaking in which to "talk back" to the oppressor. Therefore, use of "black vernacular" or the "authentic voice" must be understood within is historical moment. Indeed, the mastery of form had to take place in African-American literature before what Baker calls the "deformation of mastery" could occur. I raise this example because it is one in which lack of awareness and analysis of the socio-politcal context of African-American writing would have made this very astute argument impossible -- and it is an argument which is intimately wedded to an analysis of form. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Kathy Lou Schultz Editor & Publisher Lipstick Eleven/Duck Press http://www.duckpress.org 42 Clayton Street San Francisco, CA 94117-1110 ---------- >From: Katie Degentesh >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: class stand >Date: Thu, Dec 16, 1999, 10:58 AM > >Kathy: Looks to me as if the fact that you're used to being "personally >attacked" for insisting on the importance of class issues in poetry has >left you a bit defensive. I'm not arguing for the 'divorce' of >sociopolitics and poetry -- I just don't think codependence is healthy. > >And, for you and everyone else, just to clarify once again: the theme of >my original post wasn't "who cares about class" but "why is class the >main concern on a poetics list?" As I said in a private post to Kathy >(her original response was sent to me only and forwarded to the list a >day or so later; I didn't keep a copy of what I sent her privately, so I >must paraphrase): I completely agree that 'class/race/gender/blah blah >blah' does infuse the writing of everyone who writes. > >But, as Leonard pointed out, if class is a part of poetics, it doesn't >follow that a discussion of class is automatically a discussion of >poetics, and focusing solely on class when discussing poetics is like >wearing blinkers -- they may be differently configured than the blinkers >of those who, in KLS' words, stick their "head in the sand, in effect >saying 'don't talk about things like racism that make me >uncomfortable,'" but they're still blinkers. To pick any one filter >through which all poems must be processed is extremely limiting -- to go >from the limitations of one particular class (e.g., the "administration >of culture") to an arena in which a poet's capital-c Class is the >primary concern when evaluating his or her work is barely an >improvement. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:45:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: from Doug Lang MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:15:26 -0500 From: Doug Lang Subject: Re: apologies re Tom David, This shows admirable Grace under Rebuke. Doug david bromige wrote: > Listmates, I apologize for responding to a b-c from Tom Raworth as though > it had been f-c to this List. What confused me was that the post was fwded > to me from another list-member, who had the day before fwded a post to her > from me, to the List. Assuming this was further to that public discussion > of events in Seattle, I screwed up. Sorry, Tom---although no cause that I > can see, for yr post not to become part of the public discussion. That > decision, however, is yours to make, not mine, and I regret any > embarrasment I may have caused. And thanks to Doug Lang, for his > well-merited rebuke. My face is redder than my armband. David ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:46:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: from Jacques Debrot MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: JDEBROT@aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:19:49 EST Subject: ANNOUNCING 9-0 issue 2 ANNOUNCING 9-0 issue two Poems by: JORDAN DAVIS (dreaming on tan plush, the right dreams), MICHAEL MAGEE (explains the meaning of tears), MICHAEL BASINSKI (a hoot he has, doing imitations of Rita Hayworth's cigarette gestures) and MARY BURGER (writing in 360 degrees). stupidogrammes by DIETER ROTH. only $2.50 4 issues $10.00 9-0 # 3 will be a single author issue featuring the work of JESSICA CHIU, winner of XCONNECT'S SHAWN LYN WALKER PRIZE. # 2 is still available. Poems by: LISA JARNOT, RAY DIPALMA, JACK KIMBALL. Raster Drawings by SIGMAR POLKE. Please make checks out to Jacques Debrot, 49 Old Meetinghouse Green, Norton MA 02766. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:47:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: from Jacques Debrot MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: JDEBROT@aol.com Message-ID: <0.de77b949.258bb284@aol.com> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:36:36 EST Subject: 9-0 issue one of course, that should be 9-0 ISSUE ONE is still AVAILABLE. $2.50 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:49:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: from Ron Silliman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: "Ron Silliman" To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: looking @ poetix (the local) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 07:57:21 PST Mark, I haven't seen the book yet, but hope to do so soon. You are of course entirely correct that one needs to look to see what is important in people's lives on a day-to-day basis (and the decay of the left over the past quarter century has a lot to do with this). One thing that struck me about the WTO actions in Seattle (beyond an enormous wave of nostalgia) was how similar it all was to the 1960s -- what brought people together in great numbers was something to which they objected (the WTO, the Viet Nam war). When you look at what was/is positive in those various groups, you see lots (!) of interesting projects that don't necessarily connect up with one another, and sometimes can even barely speak to one another. A thorny old issue. A second question that has been striking me of late has to do with one's expectations from a "world of poetry" as one enters into it. In the 1960s, when my generation "came of age" the landscape was very definitely defined by the likes of Ginsberg, Olson, Duncan, Creeley, Spicer, Jones/Baraka, Kyger, Levertov, Lowell, Hall, Plath, Sexton, etc. It was, in that sense, a far simpler landscape. I think we expected the world to make sense in a way that younger people today have no such illusions about. (Think of the 700 people on the Poetics List, for example. If every one of them were to publish one book a year -- and there's no reason to think that the folks on the list aren't doing something fairly close to that already, at least statistically speaking -- who among us could even hope to read half, let alone intuit an intelligible terrain out of such disparate information.) Both of these thoughts have been driving me toward the idea that the local is more important now than ever. Ron ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:50:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: CFP: "New Modernisms II" / Laity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE This message had to be reformatted. Chris ----------------- Original message (ID=3D1279BC86) (151 lines) ------------= ------ Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:05:29 -0500 From: Subject: CFP: "New Modernisms II,", MSA 2000 10/12-10/15) Dear Poetics List, Please see the below call for panel proposals and=20 seminar proposals for "New Modernisms II," to be hosted=20 by Bob Perelman at the University of Pennsylvania, Oct.=20 12-15, 2000: The Modernist Studies Association =93New Modernisms II=94 12-15 October 2000 The University of Pennsylvania CALL FOR PANEL AND SEMINAR PROPOSALS =93A return to modernism at the end of the millennium is=20 not a farewell but a new beginning.=94 Susan Stanford Friedman In its 1999 inaugural conference, described by The=20 Chronicle of Higher Education as =93giving new life for modernism,=94 the Modernist=20 Studies Association created a forum wherein scholars, poets, musicians and artists=20 could contribute to this ongoing revitalization. Modernist studies is reemerging=20 as a dynamic and complex field, hospitable to interdisciplinary,=20 international and multicultural approaches and energized by recent work in race, class,=20 gender and sexuality. =93New Modernisms II=94 convenes at the University of=20 Pennsylvania, and will incorporate the urban diversity of Philadelphia. Our=20 plenary sessions will emphasize the arts, and performance, but our call for=20 panel and seminar proposals remains open.=20 Deadline for Panel Proposals: March 30, 2000 Deadline for Seminar Proposals: Feb. 15, 2000 Proposal guidelines are available on the MSA website: http://www.psu.edu/dept/english/MSA/msa2.htm The MSA homepage can be visisted at: http://www.psu.edu/dept/english/MSA/msa.htm Queries about seminar and panel proposals may be=20 directed to: Cassandra Laity: claity@drew.edu or Michael Coyle:=20 mcoyle@colgate.edu Completed proposals should be submitted to: Professor Bob Perelman Department of English University of Pennsylvania Philadelphia, PA 19104 perelman@dept.english.upenn.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:31:10 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: hornblowing Comments: To: Subsubpoetics@listbot.com In-Reply-To: <717744.945192968444.JavaMail.imail@wiser.excite.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" i just had an essay come out in College Literature 27:1, special issue on Teaching Beat Literature. my piece is called "Triangulated Desire and Tactical Silences in the Beat Hipscape: Bob Kaufman and Others," and it's about BK and the queer scene in the SF renaissance. it is an expansion of the paper i gave several years ago at the Queer Beats conference in SF (thanks Kevin K for the opportunity!) i'd be interested in feedback from folks cuz i want to make it better (always) --bests, md ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:21:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: coopted Ashbery MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Re Brian Stefans' intelligent post yesterday: If the New Yorker published Prynne in great abundance, how would this be seen? After a while people would say that Prynne had been co-opted, that "of course the New Yorker publishes Prynne, but not the numerous other poets it should publish." Just as the New Yorker has published Asbhery for the past twenty years. This is not seen as a sign of the New Yorker's hipness, but, as it were, of a certain lack of hipness of Ashbery himself--he's the sort of poet who writes for the New Yorker. So there is a sort of Asbhery of the "right" and an Asbhery of the "left." The Ashbery of Vendler and Bloom and the Ashbery of Perloff, etc... Interestingly enough, one of the poets ********************************* The above is only partly true, at best.... Many folks on this list, folks whose own work and taste are pretty darn anti-New Yorker (shall we say) respect the hell out of J. Ashbery and his work..... And yes many of 'em say (pretty accurately) that JA long ago became a kind of token, for that mag, and for the conservative mainstream in general... I guess caring one way or the other about the NYer itself, is kind of a waste of energy, a kind of looking in the wrong direction.... But the post quoted above, from Jonathan, may be a little on the harsh side: many people do actually realize that JA is not "the kind of poet who wrties for the New Yorker". Even tho' he writes for the New Yorker! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:59:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brendan Lorber Subject: thanks from LUNGFULL! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A hearty thanks to everyone who showed up for the LUNGFULL! Magazine release party earlier this month. Thanks to those who read their work & embodied the liveliness & perception that the magazine tries to capture. Thanks also to those who came late or left early but still managed to come despite the flu or all-consuming schedules. Additional thanks to the two people I chased down the street trying to retrieve the copies of the magazines they stole & to others who managed more successfully to abscond with Lungfull!s -- obviously I don't dig getting ripped off but if you NEED poetry that bad, I appreciate your enthusiasm & who am I to stop you? Larceny = the highest form of flattery. Props in advance to everyone who puts up poetry stickers around their neighborhood. Vandalism = the second highest form of flattery. The event also shone a little light into the dark shadow of the printer's bill, for which I & my kneecaps are grateful. I was delighted at the turnout & the affability of both devout lyricists & experimenters as they rubbed shoulders. Anyone who couldn't make it but would like a copy or two of their very own, here's how one can subscribe: It's $13.90 for two issues, one year or a scant $27.80 for four issues, two years. Checks should be made out to Brendan Lorber rather than to Lungfull! Magazine & sent to 126 east 4th Street #2, New York, NY 10003. You can also just stop by Lungfull! World Headquarters at that address & look for the editor in the window to the right of the stoop. This issue features forty writers & visual artists, among them Bill Berkson, Eileen Myles, Indran Amirthanayagam, Tuli Kupferberg & Buck Downs. Also Letters to the Editor from the likes of Hoa Nguyen of Skanky Possum, Albert DeSilver of The Owl Press, Chris McCreary of Ixnay, Eddie Berrigan of Log & someone claiming to be Jewel. Those who have had a chance to look over the latest issue, or were at the event I'd love to hear what you think, good & bad, backchannel or front. Yours, Brendan Lorber ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:52:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: from Cassandra Laity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:05:29 -0500 To: poetics@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu From: Subject: CFP: "New Modernisms II,", MSA 2000 10/12-10/15) Dear Poetics List, Please see the below call for panel proposals and seminar proposals for "New Modernisms II," to be hosted by Bob Perelman at the University of Pennsylvania, Oct. 12-15, 2000: The Modernist Studies Association New Modernisms II 12-15 October 2000 The University of Pennsylvania CALL FOR PANEL AND SEMINAR PROPOSALS A return to modernism at the end of the millennium is not a farewell but a new beginning. Susan Stanford Friedman In its 1999 inaugural conference, described by The Chronicle of Higher Educationas "giving new life for modernism," the Modernist Studies Association created a forum wherein scholars, poets, musicians and artists could contribute to this ongoing revitalization. Modernist studies is reemerging as a dynamic and complex field, hospitable to interdisciplinary, international and multicultural approaches and energized by recent work in race, class, gender and sexuality. "New Modernisms II" convenes at the University of Pennsylvania, and will incorporate the urban diversity of Philadelphia. Our plenary sessions will emphasize the arts, and performance, but our call for panel and seminar proposals remains open. Deadline for Panel Proposals: March 30, 2000 Deadline for Seminar Proposals: Feb. 15, 2000 Proposal guidelines are available on the MSA website: http://www.psu.edu/dept/english/MSA/msa2.htm The MSA homepage can be visisted at: http://www.psu.edu/dept/english/MSA/msa.htm Queries about seminar and panel proposals may be directed to: Cassandra Laity: claity@drew.edu or Michael Coyle: mcoyle@colgate.edu Completed proposals should be submitted to: Professor Bob Perelman Department of English University of Pennsylvania Philadelphia, PA 19104 perelman@dept.english.upenn.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:58:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: from Burt Kimmelman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: "Kimmelman, Burt" Subject: Series on New Media at NJIT Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 16:29:01 -0500 If you are in the physical/material neighborhood, then please do attend a series on New Media to be presented at New Jersey Institute of Technology (presenters will be: Diane Greco, Chris Funkhouser, Tina La Porte, and Stephanie Strickland). Details can be found here: http://eies.njit.edu/~kimmelma/newmedia.html. - Burt Kimmelman kimmelman@njit.edu http://eies.njit.edu/~kimmelma ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 10:08:56 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Gone until... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm off to sunnier climes from tomorrow until the 9th, so apart from a few possible groans this is my last til then. Joy to all. Now hopefully I can remember how to unsub. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 14:25:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Neff Subject: PERIHELION: The Phoenix Issue In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991224100856.014353a0@mail.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The online magazine, Perihelion, http://webdelsol.com/Perihelion, has returned. Leaving behind the cybersoap opera, Perihelion has matured into a fine publication--no longer a personal networking vehicle for mediocre editors. - See "Stalking the Wild Ashbery," reviews by Robert Sward. - Ruth Daigon's essay on the relationship between poetry and music. - Interview with Kathleen Lynch. - Eleven of the west coast's finest poets - Writer's Friendships and Enmities Cheers, Mike Neff ================================ Web Del Sol http://webdelsol.com LOCUS OF LITERARY ART ON THE WWW ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 15:15:03 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Asbhery coopted MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Mark P. wrote: But the post quoted above, from Jonathan, may be a little on the harsh side: many people do actually realize that JA is not "the kind of poet who wrties for the New Yorker". Even tho' he writes for the New Yorker! **** Agreed! I didn't mean to be harsh to Ashbery, whom I also "respect the hell out of." All I meant to suggest was that the New Yorker, by publishing Prynne in great quantities, would remain pretty much the same magazine... Jonathan Mayhew jmayhew@ukans.edu _____________ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 10:16:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Re: from Ron Silliman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ron Silliman wrote: ...Both of these thoughts have been driving me toward the idea that the local >is more important now than ever. > Hi Ron. Remember those bumper stickers, "Think Globally, Act Locally." ? It seems to me that, with mass communication and the net, local and global have become cognate. In fact, a poem that rhapsodizes a particular place seems to me like an Arthurian legend. Now Place exists only as myth. And where a myth lurks, poetry sounds itself out. Best, Joel Joel Weishaus Writer-In-Residence The University of New Mexico Albuquerque, NM ARCHIVE: www.unm.edu/~reality SKULL-HOUSE: [Most recent draft]: www.unm.edu/~reality/Skull/intro.htm SKULL-HOUSE [Being built at Centre for Advanced Inquiry in the Interactive Arts]: http://caiia-star.newport.plymouth.ac.uk/projects/skullhouse/Skull/index.htm l ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 13:56:28 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Asbhery coopted MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In today's (Saturday) Christmas edition of the NY Times, there is a lovely prose poem by Ashberry. Cheers, Stephen Vincent ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 00:34:18 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Shapiro Subject: for those who plan in advance: two Boston Book Review events in NYC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit TWO FREE Boston Book Review LITERARY EVENTS to be held in New York City in February Come meet the editor of the Boston Book Review. Come hear about classical norms in modern times (the theme of the talks). UB Poetics Discussion Group & friends are cordially invited February 25, 2000 FRIDAY 6:30pm Location: 15 Gramercy Park South, NYC (near 20th Street & Park Ave) To RSVP: Call (212) 604-4823 or email gshapirony@aol.com Charles M. Stang on "The Bliss of Discipline" . Among his other solitary practices, Henry David Thoreau was an avid reader of ancient philosophy. This talk will trace the Stoic and Epicurean influences on Thoreau's Walden. Introduced by Theoharis C. Theoharis, Editor of the Boston Book Review Charles Stang graduated from Harvard and has taught at Eton. He is studying theology at University of Chicago, and is a Contributing Writer for the Boston Book Review. Please note: this venue has a business attire requirement (jackets for men); thanks. February 26,2000 SATURDAY 2:00pm THIS EVENT HAS A DIFFERENT LOCATION [call or email for location of this talk]: "A Fiction, A Dream of Passion" Editor of the Boston Book Review Theoharis C. Theoharis offers classical and modern arguments about the value of artistic emotions. A teacher at Harvard University ; he is the author his new translation of the complete poetic works of Constantine P. Cavafy, which will be published by Harcourt in 2001. He is the author of "Ibsen's Drama : Right Action and Tragic Joy", as well as "Joyce's Ulysses : An Anatomy of the Soul" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 00:50:24 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Shapiro Subject: NYC literary events: Bread Loaf at 75, Boston Book Review, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NYC FREE LITERARY EVENTS UB Poetics Discussion Group & friends are invited-- Location: 15 Gramercy Park South, NYC (near 20th Street & Park Ave) To RSVP: Call 212 604-4823 or email gshapirony@aol.com the venue requires business attire (jacket for men) February 22,2000 6:30pm Bread Loaf Writers' Conference at 75 David Haward Bain (author of Whose Woods These Are: A History of Breadloaf Writers' Conference) will give a slide show and talk. Michael Collier, Director, will introduce three Bread Loaf Faculty. In association with Middlebury College's Bicentennial (1800-2000). David Haward Bain has written Empire Express, about the building of the transcontinental railroad in the 1860's. Michael Collier has published three collections of poetry: The Clasp and Other Poems, The Folded Heart, and The Neighbor (1995), and has edited The Wesleyan Tradition: Four Decades of American Poetry. Forthcoming is The New Bread Loaf Anthology of Contemporary American Poetry (University Press of New England). He has received a NEA fellowship, a "Discovery"/The Nation Award, and a Pushcart Prize. He is currently on the English and writing faculty at the University of Maryland. two NYC events for Boston Book Review Come meet the Boston Book Review editor February 25, 2000 6:30pm Charles M. Stang on "The Bliss of Discipline" . Among his other solitary practices, Henry David Thoreau was an avid reader of ancient philosophy. This talk will trace the Stoic and Epicurean influences on Thoreau's Walden. Introduced by Theoharis C. Theoharis, Editor of the Boston Book Review Charles Stang graduated from Harvard and has taught at Eton. He is studying theology at University of Chicago, and is a Contributing Writer for the Boston Book Review. DIFFERENT LOCATION Feb 26,2000 Saturday 2:00pm [call or email for location of this event] "A Fiction, A Dream of Passion" Editor of the Boston Book Review Theoharis C. Theoharis offers classical and modern arguments about the value of artistic emotions. A teacher at Harvard University ; he is the author his new translation of the complete poetic works of Constantine P. Cavafy, which will be published by Harcourt in 2001. He is the author of Ibsen's Drama : Right Action and Tragic Joy, as well as Joyce's Ulysses : An Anatomy of the Soul. other events to stay tuned for: March 11 National Book Critics Circle panel "Criticism in the Real World" with leading book reviewers and critics [call or email for location of event] April 10 The 20th Anniversary of The Threepenny Review more details to follow April 12, 2000 Paris Press evening on Emily Dickinson with Jan Freeman & others April 17,2000 6:00pm RT Smith and Sarah Kennedy [call or email for location of this event] Sarah Kennedy's first book, From the Midland Plain, is just out from Tryon Publishing. R.T. Smith, Editor of Shenandoah, whose most recent book Split the Lark: Selected Poems (Salmon, 1999). Messenger (LSU) is forthcoming. His other books include Trespasser, The Cardinal Heart, and Banish Misfortune. He is a frequent visitor to Ireland, where he gives lectures and readings. April 18, 2000 Shenandoah at 50: A Celebration Brendan Galvan, whose latest book is The Strength of A Named Thing (LSU,1999). He has won the Iowa Prize for Hotel Malabar, and has twice Been a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize. He lives on Cape Cod. Henry Taylor, who won the Pulitzer Prize for The Flying Change. His most recent book is Understanding Fiction (LSU,1996), which is a collection of poems. Brief Candles is forthcoming from LSU. He is Professor of Literature at American University in Washington, D.C. Rebecca McClanahan, whose new book Naked As Eve (Copper Canyon), has won Shenandoah's Thomas H. Carter Prize for the essay. She lives in New York City. Dabney Stuart, former editor of Shenandoah, and Professor of English at Washington & Lee University. His most recent book is Settlers (LSU,1999). He has been a Guggenheim beneficiary. R.T. Smith, Editor of Shenandoah, whose most recent book Split the Lark: Selected Poems (Salmon, 1999). Messenger (LSU) is forthcoming. His other books include Trespasser, The Cardinal Heart, and Banish Misfortune. He is a frequent visitor to Ireland, where he gives lectures and readings. He has also edited Buck & Wing: Southern Poetry at 2000. April 26, 2000 Wednesday Jaime Manrique will read from his memoir Eminent Marcones (University of Wisconsin Press, 1999), which includes chapters on Federico Garcia Lorca, Reinaldo Arenas and Manuel Puig ("The Writer as Diva,") Jaime Manrique is a poet, novelist, essayist, and translator. He is author of the novels Twilight at the Equator (Faber and Faber), Latin Moon in Manhattan (St. Martin's), and Colombian Gold (Clarkson Potter), as well as a wide range of poetry and short story collections. Born in Colombia, he resides in New York City. Rosanne Wasserman will read from her new book of poems Other Selves (Painted Leaf, 1999) Rosanne Wasserman's books include Apple Perfume, The Lacemakers, and No Archive on Earth. Along with her husband Eugene Richie, she is founding editor of the Groundwater Press. She teaches at the U.S. Merchant Marine Academy in Kings Point, New York. "Rosanne Wasserman is that rarity, a poet who maintains a strict observance of "self" in each frame of herself," writes Barbara Guest. Eugene Richie, founding editor of The Groundwater Press will introduce the evening. He teaches at Pace University. He is the author of a book of poems, Island Light (Painted Leaf, 1998), as well as a chapbook Moire, and is co-translator of My Night with Federico Garcia Lorca by Jaime Manrique. His work has appeared in Ploughshares, Mudfish, and many other journals. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 22:15:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Leslye Layne Russell Organization: Alliance for Creative Living Subject: Santa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Warm holidays to all.... ****** Santa ----- foot high Santa stands on the mantle red felt suit black belt and boots gentle smile every year right out of the box (I gave him to you on your first birthday my mother told me) he has lived well the decades earned his white flowing beard as I my silver hair 12/98 Leslye Layne Russell ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.sonic.net/layne a quiet place "In this rose light, time's door does not close." ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 18:00:19 GMT Reply-To: HeatherHNA@aol.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Heather A Subject: Re: from Ron Silliman Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Ron Silliman wrote: ...Both of these thoughts have been driving me toward the idea that then local is more important now than ever. Joel Weishaus wrote: Hi Ron. Remember those bumper stickers, "Think Globally, Act Locally." ? It seems to me that, with mass communication and the net, local and global have become cognate. In fact, a poem that rhapsodizes a particular place seems to me like an Arthurian legend. Now Place exists only as myth. And where a myth lurks, poetry sounds itself out. ===================================================================== As a novice to the "world" or the "local" of poetry, but a long standing member in my personal surroundings of it, the conversation here is making me wonder a bit. Does it truly have to be about epitomizing a certain standard? I have to agree Joel, where the walls and fences are brought down, it leaves a clear view of the color spectrum poetry creates on its own. No matter its origin or its creator's origin. But, why can it all not go hand in hand? Can one not stand on the corner reciting verse to their neighbor one day, and send an email to the world the next? As a person not so concerned (for now) with whom and why they read my work (as "local" it seems to be of late) I am indebted to the blur that "world" and "local" has become. I am grateful for whatever email I receive from whomever a thousand miles away that may have never known this little Southern girl existed and to the acquaintance at my side offering a "personal review" of my latest "local" idea. But, Ron, as at some point we all become concerned to a certain degree of who and why, it is a somber thought of the masses that must now be "competed" against. Even now I feel as if I have walked into a tidal wave of too much at once. Thank you for the thoughts, Heather Allen ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 15:09:15 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Re: from Ron Silliman Comments: To: HeatherHNA@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Heather wrote: >I have to agree Joel, where the walls and fences are brought down, it >leaves a clear view of the color spectrum poetry creates on its own. No >matter its origin or its creator's origin. I am indebted to the blur that >"world" and "local" has become. I am grateful for whatever email I receive >from whomever a thousand miles away that may have never known this little >Southern girl existed and to the acquaintance at my side offering a >"personal review" of my latest "local" idea. I think Ron is right about the local. If anything, Joel, Heather, the internet is making clear the importance of proximity, the local. why? the internet is frequently trying to _simulate_ the familiar, the local, and it's just a myth of the familiar. as Joel says, that's where poetry rests. Agreed. Personalized web pages or friendly e-mail just make things _seem_ personal while the actual relationships are more distal than ever. E-mail also creates the myth of the familiar. I do not know you or anyone else here better by virtue of e-mail. There is no substitute for actual proximity, for people in the flesh, for extralinguistic communication. Autocracy lurks in the blurring of the real and the simulated. (uh-oh, i'm asking for it!) As an example, have you ever met a "friendly" writer who turns out in person to be a complete asshole? Or vice-versa? I am sure many of us have. The seemingly freindly chap, one who seems personal, warm, intimate, is not in any way intimate or personal. This is an early lesson for most readers. Patrick ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1971 18:13:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jena Osman Subject: light poems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, Does anyone know anything about the procedure behind Jackson Mac Low's Light Poems from the 60s? Thanks, Jena ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 18:16:27 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: from Ron Silliman? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Might be helpful if Ron amplified on a definition or his definition of the "local." But picking up on a couple of other responses to this thread - when someone is turning a corner in their SUV talking into a cellphone and I am in the crosswalk - in order to possibly save my life (on the assumption that driver is not really "here") - I have to use all my pedestrian power (eye contact, a jump back and a slap on the hood) to bring that driver back into the "local." Sometimes I believe that's the function - or one of them - of a poem, at least a good "local" one. Cheers, Stephen Vincent ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 19:53:20 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Zauhar Subject: Re: for those who plan in advance: two Boston Book Review events in NYC In-Reply-To: <0.8ff0bfe2.259702da@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 26 Dec 1999, Gary Shapiro wrote: > TWO FREE Boston Book Review LITERARY EVENTS to be held in New York City in > February > > Charles M. Stang on "The Bliss of Discipline" . > Among his other solitary practices, Henry David Thoreau was an avid reader > of ancient philosophy. This talk will trace the Stoic and Epicurean > influences on Thoreau's Walden. Introduced by Theoharis C. Theoharis, Editor > of the Boston Book Review > Please note: this venue has a business attire requirement (jackets > for men); thanks. Business attire for a lecture on Thoreau. How appropriate. David Zauhar University of Illinois at Chicago "i have a city to cover with lines" --d.a. levy > > > February 26,2000 SATURDAY 2:00pm > THIS EVENT HAS A DIFFERENT LOCATION [call or email for location of this > talk]: "A Fiction, A Dream of Passion" > Editor of the Boston Book Review Theoharis C. Theoharis offers classical > and modern arguments about the value of artistic emotions. A teacher at > Harvard University ; he is the author his new translation of the complete > poetic works of Constantine P. Cavafy, which will be published by Harcourt > in 2001. He is the author of "Ibsen's Drama : Right Action and Tragic Joy", > as well as "Joyce's Ulysses : An Anatomy of the Soul" > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 23:45:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: notice on my work MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Internet Philosophy and Psychology - Jan. 00 This is a somewhat periodic notice describing my Internet Text, available on the Net, and sent in the form of texts to various lists. The URL is: http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt/ which is partially mirrored at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html. (The first site includes some graphics, dhtml, The Case of the Real, etc.) The changing nature of the email lists, Cybermind and Fiction-of-Philoso- phy, to which the texts are sent individually, hides the full body of the work; readers may not be aware of the continuity among them. The writing may appear fragmented, created piecemeal, splintered from a non-existent whole. On my end, the whole is evident, the texts extended into the lists, part or transitional objects. So this (periodic) notice is an attempt to recuperate the work as total- ity, restrain its diaphanous existence. Below is an updated introduction. ----- The "Internet Text" currently constitutes around 80 files, or 3500 print- ed pages. It began in 1994, and continues as an extended meditation on cyberspace, expanding into 'wild theory' and literatures. Almost all of the text is in the form of short-waves or long-waves. The former are the individually-titled sections, written in a variety of sty- les, at times referencing other writers/theorists. The sections are inter- related; on occasion emanations appear, avatars possessing philosophical or psychological import. They also create and problematize narrative sub- structures within the work as a whole. Such are Julu, Alan, Jennifer, and Nikuko, in particular. Overall, I'm concerned with virtual-real subjectiv- ity and its manifestations, in relation to various philosophical issues. Recently I've been working with body issues through consideration of ava- tars and ballet (Nikuko and Doctor Leopold Konninger), as well as issues of philosophy in general; some of this has been produced as a series of videotapes through the Experimental Television Center in Owego, NY. I have also been intensively working on a diary for trAce, the online writing community; see the URLs below. The long-waves are fuzzy thematics bearing on such issues as death, love, virtual embodiment, the "granularity of the real," physical reality, com- puter languages, and protocols. The waves weave throughout the text; the resulting splits and convergences owe something to phenomenology, program- ming, deconstruction, linguistics, prehistory, etc., as well as to the domains of online worlds in relation to everyday realities. I have used MUDS, MOOS, talkers, perl, d/html, qbasic, linux, emacs, Cu- SeeMe, etc., all tending towards a future of being-and-writing, texts which act and engage beyond traditional reading practices. Some of the work emerges out of performative language such as computer programs which _do_ things; some emerges out of interferences with these programs, or conversations using internet applications that are activated one way or another. And some of the work appears out of collaboration or video, the latter with Azure Carter and Foofwa d'Imobilite, leading to another series of texts. There is no binarism in the texts, no series of definitive statements. Virtuality is considered beyond the text- and web-scapes prevalent now. The various issues of embodiment that will arrive with full-real VR are already in embryonic existence, permitting the theorizing of present and future sites, "spaces," nodes, and modalities of body/speech/community. Please check the INDEX to find your way into the earlier body of the work. The Case of the Real is a sustained work that may be the most useful text of all. It is also helpful to read the first file, Net1.txt, and/or to look at the latest files (le, lf, etc., which are still to be indexed) as well. Skip around. The Index lists the files in which a particular topic is described; you can then do a search on the file, or simply scroll down (the files range in length from 30 to 50 pages in print). (Note: I have stopped working on the index; for the later files, I suggest you skim. Eventually, I need a site and a local search engine for the texts; at the moment, I apologize for the awkwardness of it all.) The texts may be distributed in any medium; please credit me. I would ap- preciate in return any comments you may have. I should mention you can find my collaborative activities at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm and my conference activities at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk - both as a result of my virtual writer-in-residence with the Trace online writing community. See also: Being on Line, Net Subjectivity (anthology), Lusitania, 1997 New Observations Magazine #120 (anthology), Cultures of Cyberspace, 1998 The Case of the Real, Pote and Poets Press, 1998 Jennifer, Nominative Press Collective, 1997 Alan Sondheim 718-857-3671 432 Dean Street, Brooklyn, NY, 11217 mail to: sondheim@panix.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 01:30:58 -0800 Reply-To: vbnm2@excite.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: vbnm2@EXCITE.COM Subject: Re: from Ron Silliman Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ezra Pound wrote: Think global, act loco _______________________________________________________ Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 10:27:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard Dillon Subject: Re: from Ron Silliman? Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Of course, if ambling about in a poet's dream motioning at the clouds somewhere middle of Hollywood crosswalk, you are brought to vigilance by the shout of an all too patient Lincoln SUV you and Bukowski can go -Local-Dokel-Drinkie-Pinkie- ---------- >From: Stephen Vincent >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: from Ron Silliman? >Date: Sun, Dec 26, 1999, 6:16 PM > >Might be helpful if Ron amplified on a definition or his definition of the >"local." But picking up on a couple of other responses to this thread - when >someone is turning a corner in their SUV talking into a cellphone and I am in >the crosswalk - in order to possibly save my life (on the assumption that >driver is not really "here") - I have to use all my pedestrian power (eye >contact, a jump back and a slap on the hood) to bring that driver back into >the "local." Sometimes I believe that's the function - or one of them - of a >poem, at least a good "local" one. > >Cheers, >Stephen Vincent > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 12:25:07 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: Re: weishaus and others MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The "local" and the "global" are __false__cognates. As the new information technologies "shrink" the" world", the world becomes less knowable because it comes to seem more abstract and similar. And I still insist that what e-mail listservs tend to produce is speech without social context--a whole lot of bad monologues. Tom Beckett ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:27:20 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: walcott citation: desperate query Comments: cc: subsubpoetics@listbot.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" hi groovoids, i'm desperately looking for the source of this quote by derek walcott. i can't remember where i saw it; but i used it in a paper that's now almost in press and i need to legitimate it. i vaguely think it may be from an interview, and i read it cited by someone else. i will send a copy of the booglite Poetry as Cultural Critique chapbook to whomever can help me out. in anticipatory appreciation, maria d "Break a vase, and the love the reassembles the fragments is stronger than >that love which took its symmetry for granted when it was whole... This >gathering of broken pieces is the care and pain of the Antilles, and if the >pieces are disparate, ill-fitting, they contain more pain than their >original sclpture, those icons and sacred vessels taken from granted in >their ancestral places. Antillean art is this restoration of our shattered >histories, our shards of vocabulary, our archipelago becoming a synonym for >pieces broken off from the original continent." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 13:57:20 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: d.a.levy In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" hi, i'm giving buddhist third class junkmail oracle a read...i find it very depressing...like reading minima moralia...reading the brilliant outpourings of someone who doesn't want to be alive and has no sense of humor about it...can someone help me? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 13:43:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Re: weishaus and others MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The "local" and the "global" are __false__cognates. As the new information > technologies "shrink" the" world", the world becomes less knowable because > it comes to seem more abstract and similar. > > And I still insist that what e-mail listservs tend to produce is speech > without social context--a whole lot of bad monologues. > > Tom Beckett What world are we talking about? Perhaps there are as many worlds as there are minds to perceive them. "It is always hard like this, not having a/world,/to imagine one, to wall whether in/or out, to build a kind of cage for the sake/of feeling the bars around us, to give/shape to a world./And oh, it is always a world and not the/world." -William Bronk. From, "At Tikal" _Joel Joel Weishaus Writer-In-Residence The University of New Mexico Albuquerque, NM ARCHIVE: www.unm.edu/~reality SKULL-HOUSE: [Most recent draft]: www.unm.edu/~reality/Skull/intro.htm SKULL-HOUSE [Being built at Centre for Advanced Inquiry in the Interactive Arts]: http://caiia-star.newport.plymouth.ac.uk/projects/skullhouse/Skull/index.htm l ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 15:44:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: from Ron Silliman? In-Reply-To: <199912271535.KAA09382@infobahn.icubed.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII What did I do today? I looked up the word "unctious" (very slowly), that's what I did today c On Mon, 27 Dec 1999, Richard Dillon wrote: > Of course, if ambling about in a poet's dream > motioning at the clouds > somewhere middle of Hollywood crosswalk, > > you are brought to vigilance by the shout > of an all too patient Lincoln SUV > > you and Bukowski can go > -Local-Dokel-Drinkie-Pinkie- > ---------- > >From: Stephen Vincent > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > >Subject: Re: from Ron Silliman? > >Date: Sun, Dec 26, 1999, 6:16 PM > > > > >Might be helpful if Ron amplified on a definition or his definition of the > >"local." But picking up on a couple of other responses to this thread - when > >someone is turning a corner in their SUV talking into a cellphone and I am in > >the crosswalk - in order to possibly save my life (on the assumption that > >driver is not really "here") - I have to use all my pedestrian power (eye > >contact, a jump back and a slap on the hood) to bring that driver back into > >the "local." Sometimes I believe that's the function - or one of them - of a > >poem, at least a good "local" one. > > > >Cheers, > >Stephen Vincent > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 17:36:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tisa Bryant Subject: Re: walcott citation: desperate query Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I don't know where it came from, but I'd like to, because it sounds like the inspiration for N. Mackey's ongoing prose work, "From a Broken Bottle Perfume Still Emanates", the first two volumes being of course BEDOUIN HORNBOOK and DJBOT BAGHOSTUS' RUN. Perhaps Mr. Nielsen knows? ---------- >From: Maria Damon >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: walcott citation: desperate query >Date: Mon, Dec 27, 1999, 9:27 AM > > hi groovoids, i'm desperately looking for the source of this quote by derek > walcott. i can't remember where i saw it; but i used it in a paper that's > now almost in press and i need to legitimate it. i vaguely think it may be > from an interview, and i read it cited by someone else. i will send a copy > of the booglite Poetry as Cultural Critique chapbook to whomever can help > me out. in anticipatory appreciation, maria d > > "Break a vase, and the love the reassembles the fragments is stronger than >>that love which took its symmetry for granted when it was whole... This >>gathering of broken pieces is the care and pain of the Antilles, and if the >>pieces are disparate, ill-fitting, they contain more pain than their >>original sclpture, those icons and sacred vessels taken from granted in >>their ancestral places. Antillean art is this restoration of our shattered >>histories, our shards of vocabulary, our archipelago becoming a synonym for >>pieces broken off from the original continent." > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 09:41:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: long poem... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" just stumbled across the following at carolyn forche's website: "the long poem newsletter," at http://www.bath.ac.uk/~exxdgdc/lpgn/lpgn1.html seems kinda... conservative in its musings... but i thought some of you might be interested... happy y2k!... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 18:53:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Merging and Rambling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Merging and Rambling If IBM merged with the Post Office, you'd have International Business Ma- chine Office. If Red Hat merged with Microsoft, you'd have Red Soft. If Linux merged with Unix, you'd have Lunix. If Macy's merged with Stern's, you'd have Merny's. If CBS radio merged with CBS television you'd have CBS relevision. If the American Broadcasting System merged with Pinchik's Hardware, you'd have Pamerican Hoadcasting System. If Alan merged with Azure you'd have Alure. If Nettime merged with Cybermind you'd have Net- mind. If the Internet merged with the London Times, you'd have Lonernet Times. If Tibet merged with Belgium , you'd have Tigium. If a President Clinton merged with a Margaret Thatcher, you'd have Margaret Clinton. If NATO merged with the Red Brigades, you'd have Ned Brigades. If Dean Street merged with O'Reilly Publishing, you'd have Deano Reilly Publishing. If a password merged with login, you'd have pogin. If the first word merged with the last word, you'd have the fast word. If Wall Street merged with Leopoldstrasse, you'd have Wallopoldstrasse. If Venus merged with Mars, you'd have Vars. If the Universe merged with Nothing you'd have Unnothing, but if the Void merged with the Abyss, you'd have the Voiss. If Chrysler merged with the Y2k problem, you'd have the Chrytookay problem. If Kyoko Date merged with Madonna, you'd have Kyodonna. If a sentence merged with a paragraph, you'd have a sentagraph. If Bladerunner merged with Little Women, you'd have Blattle Women. If God merged with Sondheim, you'd have Gondheim, but if Old Navy merged with Banana Republic, you'd have Old Banana Republic and if Pathmart merged with Wimpy's, you'd have Pampy's, but if Ford merged with women, you'd have Fomen, and if Hibiscus merged with Tulips you'd have Hibips. There were some people over there who had a dance. Some other people came up. They were from the Turtle People. Two of them carried a shining thing they saw in the water. Some women tried to shoot at it. One of them caught it in her net. She brought it back. Some men at the dance tried to take it. A bird landed on the net and it disappeared. The woman said, from now on you will have this disease. She took the shining thing and put it in the sky. ________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 19:53:55 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: pete spence Subject: Re: from Ron Silliman Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > >Ron Silliman wrote: > > >...Both of these thoughts have been driving me toward the idea that the >local > >is more important now than ever. > > >Hi Ron. whyche reminds me rite now we are looking further out along the coast for somewhere with a population of around 300 ,, the last 2 years have seen our present town balloon into a suburb, pete spence ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 23:00:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Tills Subject: Black Box Cutaway MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just now finally reading Susan Gevirtz' _Black Box Cutaway_, a kaleidoscope of sights for famished eyes. How's she doing that, anyway, the subtle and delicious glides from one frame of fresh landscape to another--here from a ledge, there from inside-out, now there from down below, now here from the fold of a curtain named eternity? Bravo, Susan! I don't have your e-mail address, so here's some excitement, my praise, via the grapevine. Steve Tills ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 10:31:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mdw Subject: e-mail for Joshua McKinney Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey folks-- Does anybody on thist list know how I might contact the poet Joshua McKinney, on e-mail if possible or otherwise? He used to be at Valdosta State University in Georgia, now has relocated somewhere in Northern California. Any information (you can backchannel) would be greatly appreciated. Mark Wallace ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 09:00:02 -0800 Reply-To: booglit@excite.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kirschenbaum Subject: Winter solstice assemblage zine available Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Winter solstice gathering assemblage zine 19 pages + front cover painting by Madeleine Hope Arthurs and back cover collage by Wendy Kramer on ultra-bright pink cardstock. Three-hole punched and bound with twine. $6ppd for individuals, $9ppd for institutions.=20 Only 45 copies made (35 available). Limited edition, signed and numbered by the contributors.=20 $12ppd for individuals, $18ppd for institutions. Only 20 copies made (8 available). Zine compiled at winter solstice gathering on December 18, 1999. Contributors include Sue Landers and Jeni Olin, among others. Featuring anti-Giuliani flyer, music, poetry, and 65 different versions of Kimberly Wilder's submission. =20 Checks payable to:=20 Boog Literature=20 351 W.24th Street, Apt. 19E=20 New York, NY 10011-1510=20 email: booglit@excite.com =95 tel: (212) 206-8899=20 Boog Literature chapbooks are edited and published by David A. Kirschenbaum= . Send SASE, or email, for catalog. Have a Happy New Year, David _______________________________________________________ Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com=20 The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 16:17:50 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jill Stengel Subject: san francisco poetry events, january 9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable happy new year everyone! * * * * * * * * * * Sunday, January 9, 2000: A Big Day for Poetry in North Beach Don=E2=80=99t choose between events=E2=80=94Come to both! * * * * * * * * * * synapse: Second Sundays at BlueBar Peter Neufeld and Brian Strang 2:00 p.m. $2 admission BlueBar is located at 501 Broadway at Kearney, in San Francisco; enter=20 through Black Cat Restaurant=E2=80=99s main entrance San Francisco poet Peter Neufeld is relocating to New York City later this=20 month, so come on by to bid him adieu. Neufeld is a co-founder of meldoeon=20 poetry systems=E2=80=94a small press focusing on emerging, experimental=20 writers=E2=80=94which he co-edits with Eric Frost. With E. Tracy Grinnel, Ne= ufeld is=20 currently editing the first issue of Aufgabe. Neufeld has recent work=20 appearing or forthcoming in Chain, Lipstick 11, and Mungo vs. Ranger; and hi= s=20 chapbook is The Glass Owl (a+bend press, 2000). Brian Strang has work published or forthcoming in journals including Angle,=20 Itsynccast, Kenning, Lipstick 11, lyric&, Rhizome, Tool, and Tripwire. His=20 first chapbook is Movement of Avenues in Rows (a+bend press, 2000); and his=20 second,=20 A Draft of L Cavatinas (Letters to Ez), is due to appear in Spring 2000 from= =20 Potes and Poets. Strang lives in San Francisco and teaches English=20 composition at San Francisco State University. * * * * * * * * * * Canessa Park Reading Series Patrick Durgin and Summi Kaipa 5:00 p.m. $5 admission Canessa Park Gallery is located at 708 Montgomery St. at Columbus and=20 Washington Patrick Durgin is the editor of the periodical Kenning and the author of two= =20 chapbooks: and so on (Texture Press, 1999), and Pundits, Scribes, Pupils=20 (Potes and Poets, 1998). Recent work can be found in Crayon, Combo, Lipstick= =20 11, and Tripwire. This is his first reading in San Francisco, and we don=E2= =80=99t=20 know when he=E2=80=99ll be back, so catch him while you can. Summi Kaipa currently resides in San Francisco, where she edits Interlope, a= =20 journal of Asian-American writing. She received the Holmes Award in 1999 for= =20 poetry appearing in Fourteen Hills; and additional recent poetry and=20 criticism appear in Kenning, Rhizome, and Tinfish. Kaipa=E2=80=99s chapbook,= The=20 Epics, is forthcoming from Leroy Press. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 12:36:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nada Gordon Subject: m. gottlieb e-mail??? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" happy winter festival all -- this is to just to ask if anyone has an e-mail address for michael gottlieb. if so 'twould be gratefully received backchannel at: nada@jps.net. thanks, nada ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 12:47:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: New Year's Day Marathon Reading Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" This Saturday January 1, 2000 starting at 2 pm and continuing until past midnight is the Poetry Project's Annual New Year's Day Marathon Reading with over 120 poets, performers, musicians, artists & downtown personalities including Patti Smith, Lenny Kaye, Jim Carroll, Cecil Taylor, Dael Orlandersmith, Mark Ribot, Richard Foreman, Penny Arcade, Maggie Estep, Douglas Dunn, John Giorno, Christopher Stackhouse, Jackson Mac Low, Emily XYZ, Dana Bryant, Edwin Torres, John Yau, Tuli Kupferberg, Taylor Mead, Gillian McCain, Pedro Pietri, Reno, Alice B. Talkless, Chi Chi Valenti, Nick Zedd, and many, many more! Admission is $15; $12 for students, seniors, members No advance tickets. Admission at door only. Volunteers get in free. We always need more volunteers. Call (212) 674-0910 to sign up. Call (212) 674-0910 if you need more information anyway. Refreshments will be available: cakes, cookies, coffee, soda, beer & our traditional New Year's Day chili. The Poetry Project is located in St. Mark's Church at the corner of 2nd Ave. & 10th St. in Manhattan (nowhere near Times Square). The Poetry Project is wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. Call (212) 674-0910. Poetry, comradeship, carpeting, good cheer, peace, love & understanding in the New Year/Century/Millennium. Hope to see you there. *** If you'd like to be removed from this e-mail list, please respond to this message with "remove me" and we will be sure to do so. *** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 13:39:11 -0500 Reply-To: BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Anyone Know This Poem? Comments: cc: MODERN_POETS-L@lists.missouri.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Someone e.mailed my poetry website with the message below. Can anyone help him? December 29, 1999 I realize that this may not be the right forum to submit my request. If so, I apologize maybe someone could direct me, and/or my inquiry elsewhere. I am trying to find a poem that I studied in elementary school, about 30 years ago. I do not have the name of the poem, or the author, or even the first or last line. I recall that the poem was about school and it was an analogy to life. I cannot recall the exact wording of the poem but it ends something like this: "When all my lessons have been learned, I shall put away my books and go home. I will say =91Mother, I have come home from school.=92" Any suggestions as to the author, or title, so that I can track down this poem, would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Tony Sebastian tsebastian@sk.sympatico.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 21:52:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: writers workshops & Poetry / Fouhy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This message came to the administrative account. Chris ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 21:38:26 -0500 From: George Fouhy Click to find out about NWCA writers workshops and poetry series for January 2000. Happy New Year!! http://www.bestweb.net/~cindyf/poetry_2000.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1990 02:02:20 -0500 Reply-To: Brian Stefans Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Stefans Subject: Lucious Jackson Comments: To: bstefans@randomhouse.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01B41E3B.300E6700" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01B41E3B.300E6700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Rebecca, Thanks for your comments. You are right in what you say, in general: = that our parents, uncles, priests, rabbis, books store clerks, computer = literate younger sisters, golfer grandfathers, etc. (though perhaps not = our taxi drivers, Armenian uncles, arctic explorer friends, Falun Gong = enthusiasts, Romanian gymnists, hard-boiled prog rockers, jocks, = suburbanite high school coke-addicts, Bush supporters, etc.) are going = to get their poetry from the New Yorker. And if you want to talk to = those folks about poetry, the New Yorker poems are probably a good place = to start -- at least in terms of cultural values (which are consistently = expressed there), recent literary tradition, even general aesthetic = qualities (and the weather in the Hamptons). Why not? My issues are = really much simpler: 1. that Prynne is a terribly complex poet, and much of this complexity = is centered around his successful (i.e. not nihilistic or reactionary) = resistance to assimilation into "bourgeois" (I scare quote it since it's = an antique term, in my view) culture. (A good introduction to Prynne, = I've recently discovered, is the first volume of Adorno's Notes to = Poetry, especially the essay on "Valery's Deviations" and "Lyric Poetry = and Society" -- not to be didactic, here, but I've never been able to = write or talk about him very well, and that helped.) The New Yorker, I = feel, would fail to pay any attention to these qualities. (I have mixed = feelings about the Ashbery/Prynne connection -- I think Ashbery fits in = quite well with the New Yorker, through his natural charm and calmness, = though he is more mischievous than he lets on when in there.) 2. that unlike popular music culture, which is driven by money and, in a = sense, the enthusiasm of "youth", but also by the generally asocial, = anarchic, quasi-romantic fuck-it-all sub-life that many people, from = nine-to-five stock brokers or Romanian gymnists, have, the New Yorker is = not going to roll over, switch gears (and class loyalties) because of = some sudden grass-roots interest in Prynne (or radical leftist poetry in = general). As Bernstein quite accurately wrote, mainstream poetry lacks = the "edge" that popular culture has -- it's a phenomenon that's worth = observing closely -- but paying lip-service to the "edge" that = non-mainstream poetry really only destroys that edge, since unlike in = music, you have to work a little bit to find it. Perhaps it's = unfortunate that there aren't as many "charismatic" figures in the = poetry world as, purportedly, there once was -- thinking here perhaps of = Eliot, Stein and Ginsberg -- but this creation of artificial = interactions is unlikely to create it. Did MTV's attention to the = Nuyorican poets create any real interest in the "underground" scene? I = don't think so (can't really say) -- most of what I've read or heard = about this, i.e. the opinions expressed on the subject (even Brian Eno = writes about it in his 1995 Diaries) seems to suggest that the blurring = of commerical and "counter-cultural" (another antique term) interests, = only destroyed whatever efficacy the poetry had aesthetically and as = cultural critique (or even as expressions of nihilism, romantic longing, = etc. whatever rock music is supposed to do). (Eno, consequently, would = probably be interested in Language poetry, but I don't think the MTV = thing made him think poetry in American was worth thinking about.) My sense, based on what you write below, is that you are very interested = in a wide variety of poetries, but are also interested in "spreading the = word," so to speak, about it -- that's a fine idea. I have a few = questions: > On the other hand-and this is the not-so-big idea behind Fence, which = I edit, and which does attempt the kind of "aesthetic merging" that is = by necessity and intention superficial, in that it only entails = juxtaposing poems on paper inside a product-I also want poems that I = like to have a wide audience. Is there no way to not make this "superficial"? While there is a lot of = stuff going on in the States (and your magazine, I think, focuses = primarily on English-language "literary" [i.e. page-based] stateside = poetry), it doesn't seem to me that there's SO much that one need only = deal with different types of poetry superficially. For instance, you = had a piece of prose and some poems by Molly Peacock, who is a "new = formalist" (she's pretty good, as far as that kind of poetry goes -- as = are Amy Clampitt and Anthony Hecht, in that category [though not part of = the group, of course], though in general I think this movement pretty = awful, especially the criticism) -- why not get something from her = that's completely, radically "new formalist", i.e. as extreme in that = direction as possible? And, likewise, go extreme "language," extreme = frenchy lyric, extreme gay narrative poetics, pidgin poetics, = documentary poetics, projective this and concrete that? If you are = going into it thinking it's going to be superficial, then you really = only circumscribe the idea of a lukewarm center -- any "edge" that you = may have courted will be lost there, and by extension any interest (I = feel). It's like all those novels written by mildly telented authors = who were trying to bank on the Pynchon craze many years ago -- you will = never turn anyone on to literature by showing them "Come Sunday." But = of course you are the editor, so you know more about how people have = read your magazine than me, and I don't doubt that Fence has introduced = a number of new people to non-mainstream poetry. >I don't have figures, but I do have the backlogged memory of dozens of = frustrating exchanges with general readers trying to engage by bringing = up the New Yorker in conversation when they hear that I write poetry. Do these people like the poetry in the New Yorker? If they did, then = why didn't they take their interest a little further by investigating = the books, and maybe other outlets, or somehow connect it to their = interest in words that they acquired (I'm guessing) in listening to = songs and watching movies? Everybody has uttered, at least once in = their life: "terrible screenplay." I know what you mean here, of = course. My dad -- who is a big Bob Dylan fan, especially back in the = day, and is a writer -- doesn't seem to connect with the words in any of = the poems he reads there, or in the Nation or wherever else he comes = across poetry (I know he spots them, because he always brought up some = new Ashbery thing back when I was at Bard). So basically what I mean = is: isn't it clear that the New Yorker, along with its context, is a = deadening force on poetry -- that it just doesn't get anyone very = excited about anything? Maybe that's why those conversations are so = frustrating -- because of the false sense of knowledge that poetry in = the New Yorker creates. > I am interested in the general reader. Aren't there other kinds of "general readers"? New audiences? If you = are interested in the poetry and the value-systems inherent them, isn't = it better to try to get this poetry read by people who may share some of = the values (but who don't read poetry) then try to convert those, = "hampered, handcuffed" as you are, who are knee-deep in their own rather = satisfied (and why not?) existences? > I find the other model to be gratuitously alienating, when I have = already gone through the alienation thing. Well! (Sorry I'm writing so much... day off, Christmas vacation). Last notes: > Alice Quinn (poetry ed. of New Yorker) has a subscription to Fence. Has she written anything to you about it?=20 > I'm really undecided and occasionally bemused over the question of = whether anything that is performed through the medium of poetry can have = the effect of picking someone up and setting them down outside the = dominant culture. I didn't write that that would be the case, myself -- you must be = thinking of someone else. The greater question, "ontological" if you = well, is whether poetry can ever enlighten one about her own spiritual, = social and material conditions -- i.e. can it open one's eyes, get past = the illusions, make one want to live a little differently or live in = general, etc. One can be set quite easily "outside the dominant = culture" -- every time you refuse to eat processed cheese you are = outside the dominant culture (though if you just choose one processed = cheese over another you are probably still in it -- sadly), which is to = say that it's not a black and white thing, it's just that a series of = decisions, ethically or out of a matter of survival, will probably put = you head up against the "dominant culture", and once in that position, = it might be nice to find that there are people making art especially for = you (and not for "them") -- i.e. that you have been recognized in your = doubts and frustrations by a "pure" entity, whether it be poem or poet. = The "dominant culture" as an abstraction is not very useful, of course, = but we all feel it somehow, and art seems to me a good way to organize = these feelings (not to mention a way to break through the prevalent = self-concern that seems to be modus operandi that capitalism strives = on.) This is all very vague; I'm just trying to stress that this poetry = which you feel is only read by those who "live, work, etc." in the = experimental poetry community does actually have value for others = outside of it, even if -- and I mean this -- it's in serious trouble = right now in how to convey these values, or to make to make them = enjoyable, aesthetically pleasing, necessary, etc. (Luscious Jackson = notwithstanding.) Anyway, I hope you think I'm not just being "schmegeggy" or whatever you = wrote about this whole thing -- I just think it's a problem that's of = some interest to a lot of people. Many writers do make life decisions = based on how they are to crystallize their own thoughts on their poetry, = on how they can live to write the poetry they want to write, etc., and = yes these can lead one into holes, low readership, feelings of = alienation and asocialability, etc. which feeds back into the poetry, = though hopefully in a way that reveals something about one's own, and = the general, situation. Everybody wants to be paid for their work, and = to be read by an appreciative audience. But it's probably not a good = feeling to be respected for something you didn't actually do, alas, and = when what you did do becomes lost in the shuffle (your heresies against = Guiliani, for instance, reappearing in some terrible Jay Leno monologue = -- even Eno, who shares three of the same letters of his last name [and = five of the first five of my first], hates Leno). So it becomes rather = frightening when you see "experimental" being coopted as some sort of = cultural mass that can be affixed, superfically, to some larger cultural = mass that, in the end, will not recognize it's values, or fail in any = way to be illuminated by it -- then all the work seems lost. Whether = it's true that the work is, in fact, lost, who knows -- poetry sometimes = takes a long time to make sense. Well, getting late. Cheers, Brian ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01B41E3B.300E6700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Rebecca,
 
Thanks for your comments.  You are = right in=20 what you say, in general: that our parents, uncles, priests, rabbis, = books store=20 clerks, computer literate younger sisters, golfer grandfathers, etc. = (though=20 perhaps not our taxi drivers, Armenian uncles, arctic explorer friends, = Falun=20 Gong enthusiasts, Romanian gymnists, hard-boiled prog rockers, jocks,=20 suburbanite high school coke-addicts, Bush supporters, etc.) are going = to get=20 their poetry from the New Yorker.  And if you want to talk to those = folks=20 about poetry, the New Yorker poems are probably a good place to start -- = at=20 least in terms of cultural values (which are consistently expressed = there),=20 recent literary tradition, even general aesthetic qualities (and the = weather in=20 the Hamptons).  Why not?  My issues are really much=20 simpler:
 
1. that Prynne is a terribly complex = poet, and much=20 of this complexity is centered around his successful (i.e. not = nihilistic or=20 reactionary) resistance to assimilation into "bourgeois" (I scare quote = it since=20 it's an antique term, in my view) culture.  (A good introduction to = Prynne,=20 I've recently discovered, is the first volume of Adorno's Notes to = Poetry,=20 especially the essay on "Valery's Deviations" and "Lyric Poetry and = Society" --=20 not to be didactic, here, but I've never been able to write or talk = about him=20 very well, and that helped.)  The New Yorker, I feel, would fail to = pay any=20 attention to these qualities.  (I have mixed feelings about the=20 Ashbery/Prynne connection -- I think Ashbery fits in quite well with the = New=20 Yorker, through his natural charm and calmness, though he is more = mischievous=20 than he lets on when in there.)
 
2. that unlike popular music = culture, which is=20 driven by money and, in a sense, the enthusiasm of "youth", but also by = the=20 generally asocial, anarchic, quasi-romantic fuck-it-all sub-life that = many=20 people, from nine-to-five stock brokers or Romanian gymnists, have, the = New=20 Yorker is not going to roll over, switch gears (and class loyalties) = because of=20 some sudden grass-roots interest in Prynne (or radical leftist poetry in = general).  As Bernstein quite accurately wrote, mainstream poetry = lacks the=20 "edge" that popular culture has -- it's a phenomenon that's worth = observing=20 closely -- but paying lip-service to the "edge" that non-mainstream = poetry=20 really only destroys that edge, since unlike in music, you have to work = a little=20 bit to find it.  Perhaps it's unfortunate that there aren't as=20 many "charismatic" figures in the poetry world as, purportedly, = there once=20 was -- thinking here perhaps of Eliot, Stein and Ginsberg -- but this = creation=20 of artificial interactions is unlikely to create it.  Did MTV's = attention=20 to the Nuyorican poets create any real interest in the "underground"=20 scene?  I don't think so (can't really say) -- most of what I've = read or=20 heard about this, i.e. the opinions expressed on the subject (even Brian = Eno=20 writes about it in his 1995 Diaries) seems to suggest that the blurring = of=20 commerical and "counter-cultural" (another antique term) interests, only = destroyed whatever efficacy the poetry had aesthetically and as cultural = critique (or even as expressions of nihilism, romantic longing, etc. = whatever=20 rock music is supposed to do).  (Eno, consequently, would probably = be=20 interested in Language poetry, but I don't think the MTV thing made him = think=20 poetry in American was worth thinking about.)
 
My sense, based on what you write = below, is that=20 you are very interested in a wide variety of poetries, but are also = interested=20 in "spreading the word," so to speak, about it -- that's a fine = idea.  I=20 have a few questions:

> On the other hand-and this is the not-so-big idea behind Fence, = which I=20 edit, and which does attempt the kind of "aesthetic merging" that is by=20 necessity and intention superficial, in that it only entails juxtaposing = poems=20 on paper inside a product-I also want poems that I like to have a wide=20 audience.

Is there no way to not make this "superficial"?  While there is = a lot of=20 stuff going on in the States (and your magazine, I think, focuses = primarily on=20 English-language "literary" [i.e. page-based] stateside poetry), it = doesn't seem=20 to me that there's SO much that one need only deal with different types = of=20 poetry superficially.  For instance, you had a piece of prose and = some=20 poems by Molly Peacock, who is a "new formalist" (she's pretty good, as = far as=20 that kind of poetry goes -- as are Amy Clampitt and Anthony Hecht, in = that=20 category [though not part of the group, of course], though in general I = think=20 this movement pretty awful, especially the criticism) -- why not get = something=20 from her that's completely, radically "new formalist", i.e. as extreme = in that=20 direction as possible?  And, likewise, go extreme "language," = extreme=20 frenchy lyric, extreme gay narrative poetics, pidgin poetics, = documentary=20 poetics, projective this and concrete that?  If you are going into = it=20 thinking it's going to be superficial, then you really only circumscribe = the=20 idea of a lukewarm center -- any "edge" that you may have courted will = be lost=20 there, and by extension any interest (I feel).  It's like all those = novels=20 written by mildly telented authors who were trying to bank on the = Pynchon craze=20 many years ago -- you will never turn anyone on to literature by showing = them=20 "Come Sunday."  But of course you are the editor, so you know more = about=20 how people have read your magazine than me, and I don't doubt that Fence = has=20 introduced a number of new people to non-mainstream poetry.

>I don't have figures, but I do have the backlogged memory of = dozens of=20 frustrating exchanges with general readers trying to engage by bringing = up the=20 New Yorker in conversation when they hear that I write poetry.

Do these people like the poetry in the New Yorker?  If=20 they did, then why didn't they take their interest a little further = by=20 investigating the books, and maybe other outlets, or somehow connect it = to their=20 interest in words that they acquired (I'm guessing) in listening to = songs and=20 watching movies?  Everybody has uttered, at least once in their = life:=20 "terrible screenplay."  I know what you mean here, of course.  = My=20 dad -- who is a big Bob Dylan fan, especially back in the day, and = is a=20 writer -- doesn't seem to connect with the words in any of the poems he = reads=20 there, or in the Nation or wherever else he comes across poetry (I know = he spots=20 them, because he always brought up some new Ashbery thing back = when I was=20 at Bard).  So basically what I mean is: isn't it clear = that the=20 New Yorker, along with its context, is a deadening force on poetry --=20 that it just doesn't get anyone very excited about anything?  = Maybe=20 that's why those conversations are so frustrating -- because of the = false sense=20 of knowledge that poetry in the New Yorker creates.

> I am interested in the general reader.

Aren't there other kinds of "general readers"?  New=20 audiences?  If you are interested in the poetry and the = value-systems=20 inherent them, isn't it better to try to get this poetry read by people = who may=20 share some of the values (but who don't read poetry) then try to convert = those,=20 "hampered, handcuffed" as you are, who are knee-deep in their own rather = satisfied (and why not?) existences?

> I find the other model to be gratuitously alienating, when I = have=20 already gone through the alienation thing.

Well!

(Sorry I'm writing so much... day off, Christmas vacation).  = Last=20 notes:

> Alice Quinn (poetry ed. of New Yorker) has a = subscription to=20 Fence.

Has she written anything to you about it? 

> I'm really undecided and occasionally bemused over the question = of=20 whether anything that is performed through the medium of poetry can have = the=20 effect of picking someone up and setting them down outside the dominant=20 culture.

I didn't write that that would be the case, myself -- you must be = thinking of=20 someone else.  The greater question, "ontological" if you well, is = whether=20 poetry can ever enlighten one about her own spiritual, social = and material=20 conditions -- i.e. can it open one's eyes, get past the illusions, make = one want=20 to live a little differently or live in general, etc.  One can be = set quite=20 easily "outside the dominant culture" -- every time you refuse to eat = processed=20 cheese you are outside the dominant culture (though if you just choose = one=20 processed cheese over another you are probably still in it -- sadly), = which is=20 to say that it's not a black and white thing, it's just that a series of = decisions, ethically or out of a matter of survival, will probably put = you head=20 up against the "dominant culture", and once in that position, it might = be nice=20 to find that there are people making art especially for you (and not for = "them")=20 -- i.e. that you have been recognized in your doubts and frustrations by = a=20 "pure" entity, whether it be poem or poet.  The "dominant culture" = as an=20 abstraction is not very useful, of course, but we all feel it somehow, = and art=20 seems to me a good way to organize these feelings (not to mention a way = to break=20 through the prevalent self-concern that seems to be modus operandi that=20 capitalism strives on.)  This is all very vague; I'm just trying to = stress=20 that this poetry which you feel is only read by those who "live, work, = etc." in=20 the experimental poetry community does actually have value for others = outside of=20 it, even if -- and I mean this -- it's in serious trouble right now in = how to=20 convey these values, or to make to make them enjoyable, aesthetically = pleasing,=20 necessary, etc.  (Luscious Jackson notwithstanding.)

Anyway, I hope you think I'm not just being "schmegeggy" or whatever = you=20 wrote about this whole thing -- I just think it's a problem that's of = some=20 interest to a lot of people.  Many writers do make life decisions = based on=20 how they are to crystallize their own thoughts on their poetry, on how = they can=20 live to write the poetry they want to write, etc., and yes these can = lead one=20 into holes, low readership, feelings of alienation and asocialability, = etc.=20 which feeds back into the poetry, though hopefully in a way that reveals = something about one's own, and the general, situation.  Everybody = wants to=20 be paid for their work, and to be read by an appreciative = audience.  But=20 it's probably not a good feeling to be respected for something you = didn't=20 actually do, alas, and when what you did do becomes lost in the = shuffle=20 (your heresies against Guiliani, for instance, reappearing in some = terrible Jay=20 Leno monologue -- even Eno, who shares three of the same letters of his = last=20 name [and five of the first five of my first], hates Leno).  So it = becomes=20 rather frightening when you see "experimental" being coopted as some = sort of=20 cultural mass that can be affixed, superfically, to some larger cultural = mass=20 that, in the end, will not recognize it's values, or fail in any way to = be=20 illuminated by it -- then all the work seems lost.  Whether it's = true that=20 the work is, in fact, lost, who knows -- poetry sometimes takes a long = time to=20 make sense.

Well, getting late.  Cheers,

Brian

 

 

 


 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01B41E3B.300E6700-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 22:02:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: list delays etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Apologies for the in some cases significant delays in forwarding list messages that have occurred over the last week - due to email problems that have been somewhat complicated by my having to access the list account remotely (the university being closed for winter recess). In a related vein, I know that some of you have been trying to reach me backchannel, and I can only say that I will be available as soon as this small mess is taken care of. Chris % Christopher W. Alexander % poetics list moderator ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 08:44:51 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: walcott citation: desperate query In-Reply-To: <199912280136.RAA66460@mail1.sirius.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" http://www.nobel.se/laureates/literature-1992-lecture.html that's it, tisa, it was his Nobel lecture. and i asked nate, cuz for a while i thought i'd seen it in discrepant engagement --but he said no, though the quote looked familiar. yes nate has a caribbean sensibility, though he left florida for southern CA, apparently, when he was 4. hope yr well--md At 5:36 PM -0800 12/27/99, Tisa Bryant wrote: >I don't know where it came from, but I'd like to, because it sounds like the >inspiration for N. Mackey's ongoing prose work, "From a Broken Bottle >Perfume Still Emanates", the first two volumes being of course BEDOUIN >HORNBOOK and DJBOT BAGHOSTUS' RUN. > >Perhaps Mr. Nielsen knows? > >---------- >>From: Maria Damon >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >>Subject: walcott citation: desperate query >>Date: Mon, Dec 27, 1999, 9:27 AM >> > >> hi groovoids, i'm desperately looking for the source of this quote by derek >> walcott. i can't remember where i saw it; but i used it in a paper that's >> now almost in press and i need to legitimate it. i vaguely think it may be >> from an interview, and i read it cited by someone else. i will send a copy >> of the booglite Poetry as Cultural Critique chapbook to whomever can help >> me out. in anticipatory appreciation, maria d >> >> "Break a vase, and the love the reassembles the fragments is stronger than >>>that love which took its symmetry for granted when it was whole... This >>>gathering of broken pieces is the care and pain of the Antilles, and if the >>>pieces are disparate, ill-fitting, they contain more pain than their >>>original sclpture, those icons and sacred vessels taken from granted in >>>their ancestral places. Antillean art is this restoration of our shattered >>>histories, our shards of vocabulary, our archipelago becoming a synonym for >>>pieces broken off from the original continent." >> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 23:39:57 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: Poetry Daily, British irony In-Reply-To: <3860C31A.42B532A1@concentric.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 22 Dec 1999, Rachel Loden wrote: > > There's discussion of the supposed lack of irony in colonial outposts > (as perceived by our man in Manila or Bangkok). So is irony a > post-imperial luxury, part of the "management of decline"? > > isn't irony in the eye of the beholder? and isn't irony only successful if there is someone (to my way of thinking, the powers of authority, in whatever guise they may take) doesn't get it? i have a feeling that our man in Bangkok didn't get it, not that there is no irony in the tropics. it is always strange to me that how much irony gets tagged as a sign of the decadent west (not that i don't mind a little decadence). and this is true of the left and the right (jeremiah purdy can stand for both types of reaction: 1) as a sign of our moral decline (target of choice: _The Simpsons_); 2) as a sign of our political fecklessness (target of choice: Circus Clintonis)). to me, rather, irony seems like the weapon of choice for the disenfranchised. irony signals the limits of community while demonstrating another community exists (those who do and do not get it). sometimes this all you have, though my experiences of this are more of the high school clique variety than what Homi Bhabha calls "ambivalence" in colonial discourse. i gather irony is at the heart of Henry Louis Gates' signifying monkey. sure it can be deployed in "regressive" ways. but if you associate irony with the aristocracy, well then, that has hardly been a hegemonic class for the last 200 years. i will be bold and say that power _never_ speaks ironically. it may speak hypocritically (and as a resident in post-WTO Seattle i can say i have a better appreciation for this nuance), but power always means what it says. perhaps the economist would agree with this--not power, but power in decline speaks ironically. but my claim is that those who speak back to power often do so ironically. for it is not only to speak to already constituted communities that one uses irony, but also to speak to communities to come. -- Robert Corbett "I worried about the gap between rcor@u.washington.edu expression and intent, afraid the world Department of English might see a fluorescent advertisement University of Washington where I meant to show a face." -Rosmarie Waldrop ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 00:00:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Neff Organization: Web Del Sol Subject: Re: Merging and Rambling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If you merged Sondheim with lobotomy you'd have an act of "sondomy" > - > > Merging and Rambling > > If IBM merged with the Post Office, you'd have International Business Ma- > chine Office. If Red Hat merged with Microsoft, you'd have Red Soft. If > Linux merged with Unix, you'd have Lunix. If Macy's merged with Stern's, > you'd have Merny's. If CBS radio merged with CBS television you'd have CBS > relevision. If the American Broadcasting System merged with Pinchik's > Hardware, you'd have Pamerican Hoadcasting System. If Alan merged with > Azure you'd have Alure. If Nettime merged with Cybermind you'd have Net- > mind. If the Internet merged with the London Times, you'd have Lonernet > Times. If Tibet merged with Belgium , you'd have Tigium. If a President > Clinton merged with a Margaret Thatcher, you'd have Margaret Clinton. If > NATO merged with the Red Brigades, you'd have Ned Brigades. If Dean Street > merged with O'Reilly Publishing, you'd have Deano Reilly Publishing. If a > password merged with login, you'd have pogin. If the first word merged > with the last word, you'd have the fast word. If Wall Street merged with > Leopoldstrasse, you'd have Wallopoldstrasse. If Venus merged with Mars, > you'd have Vars. If the Universe merged with Nothing you'd have Unnothing, > but if the Void merged with the Abyss, you'd have the Voiss. If Chrysler > merged with the Y2k problem, you'd have the Chrytookay problem. If Kyoko > Date merged with Madonna, you'd have Kyodonna. If a sentence merged with > a paragraph, you'd have a sentagraph. If Bladerunner merged with Little > Women, you'd have Blattle Women. If God merged with Sondheim, you'd have > Gondheim, but if Old Navy merged with Banana Republic, you'd have Old > Banana Republic and if Pathmart merged with Wimpy's, you'd have Pampy's, > but if Ford merged with women, you'd have Fomen, and if Hibiscus merged > with Tulips you'd have Hibips. > > There were some people over there who had a dance. Some other people came > up. They were from the Turtle People. Two of them carried a shining thing > they saw in the water. Some women tried to shoot at it. One of them caught > it in her net. She brought it back. Some men at the dance tried to take > it. A bird landed on the net and it disappeared. The woman said, from now > on you will have this disease. She took the shining thing and put it in > the sky. > > ________________________________________________________________________ -- ================================ Web Del Sol http://webdelsol.com LOCUS OF LITERARY ART ON THE WWW ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 22:55:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: A Note on Time Zero and Sources for Nikuko and the Doctor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII = A Note on Time Zero and Sources for Nikuko and the Doctor It is increasingly difficult to write about, from this distance and exter- iority, Doctor Leopold Konninger, and Nikuko. They inhabit this and other virtual worlds; they are also in stasis, a constant jarring of pirouette, observance, sexuality, obsession. Even this text is forced into repetition as a result - for example "Nikuko has all the time in the world" and what that implies. For the reader, the texts, which necessarily abjure narra- tive (for what could possibly happen when nothing can or does?), appear stagnant - the reality is that each is a memorial or reminder of constancy on the part of "the famous Russian ballet dancer and her Doctor." I am placed inside (and hence stagnant/frozen) and outside (hence writing, active) simultaneously - a paradoxical situation, since the writing pro- ceeds, as it must, through diegesis, temporal unfolding - against the wall of the Doctor and Nikuko. Yet, if I choose not to write, to remain silent (as witnesses may remain silent), I am, for-myself, inauthentic in my re- sponse - which is to _keep the Doctor and Nikuko before the public,_ to allow the public to view, however mediated, the constancy that is the two of them locked, as if in fatal sexual embrace. Thus "at the risk of boring the reader," always a reminder, which is by necessity a remainder, of Nikuko, more or less naked, more or less in her pink tutu, more or less shaved, turning before Doctor Leopold Konninger, more or less naked, more or less in his suit, top-hat and monocle (cane by his side), more or less erect and spent, _as if by virtue of a hair._ And that this image, from the imaginary imagination, equally spends itself within you, the voyeur to their exhibitionism, reader to my writing (and _that_ is where the dissymmetry emerges) - delineated by dreamwork, by ei- detic imagery, by hypnagogic imagery, by imagery at the service of every- day life. Who is open to whom? For whom the pirouettes? Who, at long last, becomes obsessive ballerina, and who watches himself or herself in what mirrors, what _photography?_ ------ Sources for Nikuko and Doctor Leopold Konninger 1. Chaucer, Merciles Beaute, I: Your yen two wol slee me sodenly; I may the beautee of hem not sustene, So woundeth hit thourghout my herte kene. And but your word wol helen hastily My hertes wounde, while that hit is grene, Your yen two wol slee me sodenly; I may the beautee of hem not sustene. Upon my trouthe I sey you feithfully That ye ben of my lyf and deeth the quene; For with my deeth the trouthe shal be sene. Your yen two wol slee me sodenly; I may the beautee of hem not sustene, So woundeth it thourghout my herte kene. 2. Sue Williams, Lacanian Ink 7, paragraphs 5-7 Now she's beaten, sad and in pain... but she'll move on, will get out of it, finally. Domineering? She'll give it a try--wear leather, high thin heeled shoes, a whip, also may excel at verbal abuse. Now it's men: they come in by the hour, are very peculiar, want disgust- ing things. They masturbate, scream--Mom, mom--while she urinates on them; or they bring their own tutus to wear, their own ballet petticoats: "Aun- tie Lady I've been bad, I need to be raped with a dildo..." Now she has power over the beasts. 3. Immanuel Kant, Universal History, first and second thesis: All of a creature's natural capacities are destined to develop completely and in conformity with their end. [...] In man (as the sole rational creature on earth), those natural capacities directed toward the use of his reason are to be completely developed only in the species, not in the individual. 4. J.N. Adams, The Latin Sexual Vocabulary, page 126: _Irrumo_ in etymology reflects the popular obsession among Latin speak- ers with a similarity felt between feeding and certain sexual practices. It is a denominative of _ruma / rumis,_ 'teat,' and would originally have meant 'put in the teat.' [...] _Irrumo_ and _fello_ describe the same type of sexual act, but from different points of view: _irrumo_ from the view- point of the active violator (= _mentulam in os inserere_), _fello_ from that of the passive participant. 5. Hippocrates, Decorum, V., first part: Wherefore resume each of the points mentioned, and transplant wisdom into medicine and medicine into wisdom. For a physician who is a lover of wis- dom is the equal of a god. Between wisdom and medicin there is no gulf fixed; in fact medicine possesses all the qualities that make for wisdom. It has disinterestedness, shamefastness, modesty, reserve, sound opinion, judgment, quiet, pugnacity, purity, sententious speech, knowledge of the things good and necessary for life, selling of that which cleanses, free- dom from superstition, pre-excellence divine. 6. Ron Ewart, Fuchsia Lexicon, Revised Second Edition, page 86: 'Dancing Flame' - STUBBS 1982 - AFS Registration No 1621 - Double _Tube_ short and thick, pale orange to flesh with darker stripes. _Sepals_ pale orange on top, slightly deeper orange on the undersides, medium length, slender and recurving slightly. _Corolla_ orange carmine, deeper shade in the centre and lighter orange on the outer petals, slightly flar- ing. _Foliage_ medium green, largish leaves with serrated edges. _Growth_ trailer, basket variety. Can be grown as a bush with early support. Vigor- our and free-flowering. _Parentage_ 'Novella' x 'Applause.' ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 14:38:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Arielle C. Greenberg" Subject: end of century reading material In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I got a posting from someone asking what everyone was reading now, at the end of the century, which I thought was such a lovely idea, until I realized that posting came from a different list I'm on. So I'm introducing the idea here. Bedside stacks, circa the flip of the nines to zeros? I'm particularly excited to answer this myself, since as I write I am also trying to gather books to bring on a three-day hide-out in an Adirondack cabin. My house is stocked with books I bought in 99 and never had a chance to read, so what to bring? Possible selections include: Journals I bought from SPD: Volt, Big Allis, New American Writing, The Hat, Fourteen Hills, American Letters & Commentary Many new Barbara Guest books The New American Poetry anthology I finally own Wang Ping's Of Flesh and Spirit French Symbolist Poetry anthology New issue of Fence Jena Osman's The Character Plus novels I never got to read: Everlasting Story of Nory by Baker, The Saskiad by Hall Pride & Prejudice, which sig oth and I are reading out loud to one another nightly Also coming: ingredients for tofu/mushroom thai curry champagne, bien sur! the new Stephin Merritt/Dolly Parton/Beastie Boys cds pancake mix videos: Modern Times (Chaplin), Rules of the Game (Renoir), 2001 (Kubrick), Irma Vep (Assayas), Philadelphia Story (Cukor) noisemakers for everyone! see you in the meltdown... Arielle **************************************************************************** "I thought numerous gorgeous sadists would write me plaintive appeals, but time has gone by me. They know where to get better looking boots than I describe." -- Ray Johnson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 15:05:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII # # # # ## # # # # # # # # # # # ## # # # # # # # #### # # # # # # # # ## ## # # ###### # # # ## # # ## # # # # # # # ## ## # # # # # # # # # # #### # # ##### #### # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # ##### #### # # ###### # # # # # ##### # ## # # ## ## # # # ###### ##### # ## #### ###### # # # # # # # # # # # # # # ##### ##### # ###### # # # # # # # # # # ###### # # #### ###### #### # # ##### # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # ##### # # # # # # #### #### # # ###### ## # ##### # # # # # # # # # ##### # # # # ###### # ###### # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # ##### #### # # # # # # # # # # # # # #### #### ## ##### ##### # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # ###### ##### ##### # # # # # # # # # # #### # # # # # # # # # #### # # # # # #### # # # # # # # #### #### ## #### ##### #### #### #### # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #### #### ###### # ##### # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #### # # #### #### #### ##### # # ###### # # # # # ###### ##### # # # # # # # # # # # ###### #### ##### ###### ## ##### # # # # # # # # # # # ##### # # # # ### ##### # ###### # # # # # # # # # #### # # ###### # # # ##### # # # # ##### ###### # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # ##### # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # ##### # ## # ##### ###### ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 17:07:06 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: Re: Lucious Jackson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit brian & rebecca thank you for yr comments. let me just add to yr brilliant exchange a few, perhaps tangential, remarks. 1. mainstream poetry is fascinating to me in that it is, in several ways, in a profound state of crisis, while simultaneously seeming to be incredibly complacent (or "lukewarm" as brian puts it)--a crisis, in other words, as much *of* as *in* complacency. for the readers of mainstream poetry--& such readers have, by definition, a casual relationship to poetry--poems are almost entirely about "soul making" (thus, bill moyers)--& register the (fairly circumscribed) dissastisfactions, aspirations, & values of the most completely socialized segment of the american population (left-of-center, suburban college-educated professionals). 2. alternative poetries are not diametrically dissimilar to mainstream poetry, but actually share/reproduce many of the symptoms of this crisis-in-complacency. this is not, however, necessarily a *bad* thing inasmuch as it might be more useful & interesting for poetry to make the symptoms of capitalism, etc. *exemplary* rather than to propose "alternatives" or "solutions". 3. for example, silliman's "solution" of a more locally-oriented poetic strikes me actually as extremely, if unintentionally, conservative. for one thing, it would tend, of course, to leave in place the status quo ideological & aesthetic assumptions of more ambitiously positioned poetries like language (not coincidentally). this is particularly evident for instance w/ the more noticeably regional poetic groupings like apg-- which, although it produces interesting work, is in an extremely unoriginal position vis langpo--or boston, on the other hand, which is largely frozen in an olsonian aesthetic. what exp poetry needs is in fact an "outside" -- an alternative, just for a start, to all the *puffing* that constitutes the critical discourse (for what it's worth) that surrounds it. indeed, rather than the chaos of proliferating books & presses, the reception of alt poetry & its relationship to its audience seems more & more regulated by networks of affiliation structured by a.) apprentiships by emerging poets to more established writers & b.) accreditation/initiation in/by graduate writing &/or english depts at buffalo, brown, naropa, san diego, etc. 4. poetry, both mainstream & avant-garde, has become a minor genre in almost every respect. it is, for instance, telling that so few of the poets writing in the contributors's notes of fence magazine, when prompted to name their favorite books, mention poetry books. even the way the word is pronounced --po *em* --with the stress on the second syllable-- seems to attest to its anachronism. perhaps one could/should begin again by writing *pomes.* more later perhaps. . . . jacques ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 18:05:42 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: @poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit by the way, does kuszai's _@poetics_ make any mention, in its introduction, of the controversy that led to the change in the list's administration? it would be interesting to know, particularly as the particular circumstances of this controversy render a lot of the rhetoric by perloff, bernstein & others in lauding the list's initiation of various new freedoms a little hollow. (see for instance kent johnson's "article" in _skanky possum_--i'm not entirely in *his* camp either, but he does make several compelling points.) in any case, @poetic's limitation to the 1st 2yrs of posts arose for practical reasons i'm sure, but it also reflects what i think is the common experience of its offering increasingly diminished returns to its subscribers (while remaining, all the same, indispensable). one suspects, too, that for this reason, many of the formerly most interesting voices on the poetics list correspond now mainly on the "shadowy" subpoetics list. one would think, too, that an intro to the buffalo list would--if only briefly or provisionally--make mention, not only of new democratizing trends, but of the new electronic heirarchies spun off from buffalo & embodied by, for example, subpoetics. if not, is this merely another example of the incestuous critical discourse surrounding alt poetry? jacques ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 18:33:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Danon Subject: Re: poetry and the moment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Came back from the woods to this interesting discourse. So I thought I'd come out of hiding to offer a small comment. I think that one of the things left out of this discussion is that writing poetry -- in the sense of really trying to enter the discourse and carry it forth in a way that matters -- however a person might define "matter" -- is really difficult. It's not an easy task. Polemic is easier, theory is a little easier, but to write poetry -- well it's hard. I agree that there is an essential conservatism in both the mainstream (and largely tedious) poetry and also in the so called avant garde modes. What is to be discovered? What risked? What commitments will we make? What will we do that doesn't already have it's assumptions declared at the outset? What are we willing to learn? I don't have answers. But I do want to offer these questions as something to chew on. Happy New Year everyone ---------- > From: Jacques Debrot > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Lucious Jackson > Date: Thursday, December 30, 1999 5:07 PM > > brian & rebecca thank you for yr comments. let me just add to yr brilliant > exchange a few, perhaps tangential, remarks. > > 1. mainstream poetry is fascinating to me in that it is, in several ways, in > a profound state of crisis, while simultaneously seeming to be incredibly > complacent (or "lukewarm" as brian puts it)--a crisis, in other words, as > much *of* as *in* complacency. for the readers of mainstream poetry--& such > readers have, by definition, a casual relationship to poetry--poems are > almost entirely about "soul making" (thus, bill moyers)--& register the > (fairly circumscribed) dissastisfactions, aspirations, & values of the most > completely socialized segment of the american population (left-of-center, > suburban college-educated professionals). > > 2. alternative poetries are not diametrically dissimilar to mainstream > poetry, but actually share/reproduce many of the symptoms of this > crisis-in-complacency. this is not, however, necessarily a *bad* thing > inasmuch as it might be more useful & interesting for poetry to make the > symptoms of capitalism, etc. *exemplary* rather than to propose > "alternatives" or "solutions". > > 3. for example, silliman's "solution" of a more locally-oriented poetic > strikes me actually as extremely, if unintentionally, conservative. for one > thing, it would tend, of course, to leave in place the status quo ideological > & aesthetic assumptions of more ambitiously positioned poetries like language > (not coincidentally). this is particularly evident for instance w/ the more > noticeably regional poetic groupings like apg-- which, although it produces > interesting work, is in an extremely unoriginal position vis langpo--or > boston, on the other hand, which is largely frozen in an olsonian aesthetic. > what exp poetry needs is in fact an "outside" -- an alternative, just for a > start, to all the *puffing* that constitutes the critical discourse (for what > it's worth) that surrounds it. indeed, rather than the chaos of > proliferating books & presses, the reception of alt poetry & its relationship > to its audience seems more & more regulated by networks of affiliation > structured by a.) apprentiships by emerging poets to more established writers > & b.) accreditation/initiation in/by graduate writing &/or english depts at > buffalo, brown, naropa, san diego, etc. > > 4. poetry, both mainstream & avant-garde, has become a minor genre in almost > every respect. it is, for instance, telling that so few of the poets writing > in the contributors's notes of fence magazine, when prompted to name their > favorite books, mention poetry books. even the way the word is pronounced > --po *em* --with the stress on the second syllable-- seems to attest to its > anachronism. perhaps one could/should begin again by writing *pomes.* > > more later perhaps. . . . > > jacques > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 13:34:54 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Subject: Re: end of century reading material MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK, here you go, Arielle, in no particular order, Catalogue. Bambury: Works 1975-1999, curated: Wystan Curnow Books: L.Althusser. Pour Marx. 1973 Michael Sullivan. Symbols of Eternity: the art of landscape painting in China. 1979 Michael Foucault. Essential works vol2. trans.Robert Hurley, 1998 Virginia Were. Jump Start. 1999 Charles Peirce. Peirce on Signs. ed James Hoopes. 1991 Friedrich Nietzsche. The Birth of Tragedy. The genealogy of Morals. trans H.Golffing. 1956 Magazine: A brief description of the whole world, #14, 1999 CD's currently on or near CD player: Miles Davis at Carnegie Hall Giovanni Martinelli: the acoustic records Chick Corea. Retro. The Gold Collection: Classic Performances Ray Charles. Newsound. Essential Collection Charlie Christian; the genius of the electric guitar a happy new year to one & all best Tony Green From: Arielle C. Greenberg To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Friday, 31 December 1999 11:47 Subject: end of century reading material >I got a posting from someone asking what everyone was reading now, at the >end of the century, which I thought was such a lovely idea, until I >realized that posting came from a different list I'm on. So I'm >introducing the idea here. Bedside stacks, circa the flip of the nines to >zeros? > >I'm particularly excited to answer this myself, since as I write I am also >trying to gather books to bring on a three-day hide-out in an Adirondack >cabin. My house is stocked with books I bought in 99 and never had a >chance to read, so what to bring? > >Possible selections include: >Journals I bought from SPD: Volt, Big Allis, New American Writing, The >Hat, Fourteen Hills, American Letters & Commentary >Many new Barbara Guest books >The New American Poetry anthology I finally own >Wang Ping's Of Flesh and Spirit >French Symbolist Poetry anthology >New issue of Fence >Jena Osman's The Character >Plus novels I never got to read: Everlasting Story of Nory by Baker, The >Saskiad by Hall >Pride & Prejudice, which sig oth and I are reading out loud to one another >nightly > > >Also coming: >ingredients for tofu/mushroom thai curry >champagne, bien sur! >the new Stephin Merritt/Dolly Parton/Beastie Boys cds >pancake mix >videos: Modern Times (Chaplin), Rules of the Game (Renoir), 2001 >(Kubrick), Irma Vep (Assayas), Philadelphia Story (Cukor) > > >noisemakers for everyone! see you in the meltdown... >Arielle > > >*************************************************************************** * >"I thought numerous gorgeous sadists would write me plaintive appeals, but >time has gone by me. They know where to get better looking boots than I >describe." -- Ray Johnson > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 09:55:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: from Richard Frey, re: Philly reading 1/9/00 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" FORWARDED / reformatted From: richardfrey@dca.net (Richard Frey) Subject: Gontarek, Silver at NOTcoffeeHouse 1 pm 1/9/00 (NOTcoffeeHouse) Poetry and Performance Series Sunday, January 9, 2000 1 pm First Unitarian Church 2125 Chestnut Street Philadelphia, PA 19103 Featured Readers: Leonard Gontarek, editor, APR Philly Edition 99, nominee, 1999 Pushcart Prize. Leonard will read from his journal and new poems. Don Silver will finger-pick and read new poems. Plus Open Poetry and Performance Showcase $1 admission. Along with a live poetry reading and performance , we invite you to join in our website poetry reading presentation. All poets and performers may have a poem or a lyric featured in theNOTcoffeeHouse website. Send your work for inclusion in the ongoing internet presentation. Tell your friends all over the world to check our site! Poets and performers may submit works for direct posting on the website via email to the webmaster@notcoffeehouse.org or works may be emailed to Richard Frey at richardfrey@dca.net or USPS or hand-delivered through slot at 500 South 25th Street, Philadelphia, PA 19146. More information: Church office, 215-563-3980, Jeff Loo, 546-6381 or Richard Frey, 735-7156. Visit our website at www.notcoffeehouse.org poets & performers previously appearing at NOTcoffeeHouse: Nathalie Anderson, Lisa Coffman, Barbara Cole, Barb Daniels, Linh Dinh, Lori-Nan Engler, Simone Zelitch, Dan Evans, Brenda McMillan, Kerry Sherin, John Kelly Green, Emiliano Martin, Jose Gamalinda, Toshi Makihara, Thom Nickels, Joanne Leva, Darcy Cummings, David Moolten, Kristen Gallagher, Shulamith Wachter Caine, Maralyn Lois Polak, Marcus Cafagna, Ethel Rackin, Lauren Crist, Beth Phillips Brown, Joseph Sorrentino, Frank X, Richard Kikionyogo, Elliott Levin, Leonard Gontarek, Lamont Steptoe, Bernard Stehle, Sharon Rhinesmith, Alexandra Grilikhes, C. A. Conrad, Nate Chinen, Jim Cory, Tom Grant, Gregg Biglieri, Eli Goldblatt, Stephanie Jane Parrino, Jeff Loo, Theodore A. Harris, Mike Magee, Wil Perkins, Deborah Burnham, UNSOUND, Danny Romero, Don Riggs, Shawn Walker, She-Haw, Scott Kramer, Judith Tomkins, 6 of the Unbearables - Alfred Vitale Ron Kolm, Jim Feast, Mike Carter, Sharon Mesmer, Carol Wierzbicki-,John Phillips, Quinn Eli, Molly Russakoff, Peggy Carrigan, Kelly McQuain, Patrick Kelly, Mark Sarro, Rocco Renzetti, Voices of a Different Dream - Annie Geheb, Ellen Ford Mason, Susan Windle - Bob Perelman, Jena Osman, Robyn Edelstein,Brian Patrick Heston, Francis Peter Hagen, Shankar Vedantam, Yolanda Wisher, Lynn Levin, Margaret Holley ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 23:09:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: @poetics In-Reply-To: <0.9831dc13.259d3f46@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Debrot asks some VERY good and useful questions here.... thanks.... chris stroffolino On Thu, 30 Dec 1999, Jacques Debrot wrote: > by the way, does kuszai's _@poetics_ make any mention, in its introduction, > of the controversy that led to the change in the list's administration? it > would be interesting to know, particularly as the particular circumstances of > this controversy render a lot of the rhetoric by perloff, bernstein & others > in lauding the list's initiation of various new freedoms a little hollow. > (see for instance kent johnson's "article" in _skanky possum_--i'm not > entirely in *his* camp either, but he does make several compelling points.) > in any case, @poetic's limitation to the 1st 2yrs of posts arose for > practical reasons i'm sure, but it also reflects what i think is the common > experience of its offering increasingly diminished returns to its subscribers > (while remaining, all the same, indispensable). one suspects, too, that for > this reason, many of the formerly most interesting voices on the poetics list > correspond now mainly on the "shadowy" subpoetics list. one would think, > too, that an intro to the buffalo list would--if only briefly or > provisionally--make mention, not only of new democratizing trends, but of the > new electronic heirarchies spun off from buffalo & embodied by, for example, > subpoetics. if not, is this merely another example of the incestuous > critical discourse surrounding alt poetry? > > jacques > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 23:40:19 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Re: Lucious Jackson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed As always Jacques, you have so much to say that's so compelling, insightful. I am just now starting to comprehend much of what you wrote, and find myself nodding 'yes' in excitement. but for a couple of things, as always is the case with me. the current concerns of many poets with categories of exclusion and inclusion in the poetry community seems on its own to help impose a sort of idiosyncratic class structure to the poetry community/poetry communities. a heuristic for stratification perhaps. maybe this is what helps to feed, as you say, "poetry, both mainstream & avant-garde, has become a minor genre in almost every respect." also, I might add that poetry in America weakens because poets are more and more synonymous with dissidents in the USofA, and dissidents are less and less tolerated, and there are large budgets to make this happen, perhaps larger than ever. the poets singing, "wake up," in eloquent ways, perhaps find it hard to even ever afford a computer, a journal, books. the only true artists are terrorists perhaps (deLillo)? <> please forgive me if this sounds out-of-line, but this feels as it if comes from a priveleged person looking (down?) at the more common people surrounding him/her on a college campus. just my intuition, since I don't know you nearly well enough. (Forgive me for my lack of tact here.) equating "soul making" with bill moyers cheapens the emotive power that poetry can have, that poetry has almost lost, perhaps due to elliptic writing, people afraid to say what they mean perhaps? I don't know. sometimes the ellipticism makes us take the scenic route to insights. but maybe i don't know what you mean by "soul making." writers with emotive power (what I am equating "soul making" with) are all over the class map. I think now of Linh Dinh, particularly his "The Dead." a staggeringly brilliant and moving poem. there is a sort of "soul making" there, the author imparts his recognition of people's lives changing, and his association of such change with death, and it leaves a chill, an echo of foreign yet familiar recognitions. his writing is out of the mainstream. and yet it is so profoundly similar to Charles Simic's, particularly from the "World Doesn't End" volume, and he's mainstream in a very large sense. the breakdown is largely of social/professional associations/affiliations as you say, but not really content or form any more. again, as you say so well. the line between avant and mainstream is incredibly fuzzy, but for the affiliations. So I guess I am agreeing with most of your sentiments except the one about the association of one small segment of a population with Bill Moyers. I think it undercuts your own otherwise terrific insights. <> I take it as 1. a sort of survival stance in an increasingly divisive literary environment in Amerika and 2. a sort of anarchistic stance, both very radical and pragmatic (if such a combination is possiblem, which I think yes). organize locally (which need not be defined by geography alone -- I live in NC and my brother lives in CA and yet I would consider him very local to my life, as an example). using APG as illustrative of the power of the local is unfair to the concept of the local, and even unfair to APG. Not that I have any friends there! it is anecdotal, and another local group could spring up that's of an aesthetic completely original to you (or me). what they do may meet none of my tastes or yours, but perhaps to dismiss them altogether and then transitively dismiss local efforts is unfair? <> I agree, poetry needs an outside. networking, though, is such a product of a capitalist coulture of quid pro quo. how can poetry really emerge from an environment of such backslapping? and establishment by writing programsperhaps my imagination is limited there. but little of what i read in journals, mainstream or avant, has that poetic chill. poetry is rare, rare, rare and yet common. everyone has poetic moments, insights, so they are as common as people, but it seems not many people have more than a small number in a lifetime, and even less try to communicate those moments, realizations, etc, and even less try repeadedly, doggedly, stubbornly. on a final note, to the group, why is originality so important and craft so unimportant? Aren't both important? Say, original non-New Formalist craft? Other formalisms, shifting dynamic formalisms? Is it possible to say something that has never ever been said before? especially when we know so much of our reading has intercolated into our ways of thinking, that we might find it hard to actually know from where our ideas "originated"? goddamn, Jacques, what you said was certainly insightful. as with the discussion of Ashbery's "Girls...", Darger, outside art, from a while back. Thanks for the nourishment. Happy New Year Patrick Herron ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 05:09:27 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nuyopoman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 27 Dec 1999 to 29 Dec 1999 (#1999-238) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/30/99 12:07:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU writes: << Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 13:57:20 -0600 From: Maria Damon Subject: d.a.levy hi, i'm giving buddhist third class junkmail oracle a read...i find it very depressing...like reading minima moralia...reading the brilliant outpourings of someone who doesn't want to be alive and has no sense of humor about it...can someone help me? >> Dear Maria, Death no parenthesis etc. That levy was hounded to death by CoIntelPro - 15-year old girl wired to record a reading he gave in a church basement! That he came under investigation because he was a Grand BooHoo in the Neo-American Church, a complete sham created to poke fun at organized religion but whose pataphysical hierarchy gave FBI something to believe in (this revealed for first time in Golden's intro). That he refused to leave Cleveland. The he had published 55 books at time of death (26). That his poems are the sheerest yowl and shriek song descant of the 60s. That his spirit of mimeo lives on in internet. That B3CJMO is a super testament, with great gruppby repros and even color collages. My students at Bard couldn't get enough of him. After years of battling against the image of die-young romantapoet, I'm coming to terms with levy, Frank Stanford, Larry Neal, Steven Jesse Bernstein as repping some lineage, American grain . Love, BobH ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 05:18:52 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nuyopoman@AOL.COM Subject: da levy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Maria, Death no parenthesis etc. That levy was hounded to death by CoIntelPro - 15-year old girl wired to record a reading he gave in a church basement! That he came under investigation because he was a Grand BooHoo in the Neo-American Church, a complete sham created to poke fun at organized religion but whose pataphysical hierarchy gave FBI something to believe in (this revealed for first time in Golden's intro). That he refused to leave Cleveland. The he had published 55 books at time of death (26). That his poems are the sheerest yowl and shriek song descant of the 60s. That his spirit of mimeo lives on in internet. My students at Bard couldn't get enough of him. After years of battling against the image of die-young romantapoet, I'm coming to terms with levy, Frank Stanford, Larry Neal, Steven Jesse Bernstein as repping some American grain lineage. Love, BobH ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 13:37:57 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: komninos zervos Subject: Re: Lucious Jackson In-Reply-To: <0.a94deb99.259d318a@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" i assume that you are refering mainly to published poetries in this post, and would like to add some thoughts and observations from the antipodes. i have been reading beach's "poetic culture" lately and have been trying to apply what i read of the experience in the usa with my own country. At 05:07 PM 12/30/99 EST, you wrote: >1. mainstream poetry .......in a profound state of crisis, while >simultaneously seeming to be incredibly complacent.... as much *of* as *in* >complacency. for the readers of mainstream poetry....--poems are >almost entirely about "soul making" (thus, bill moyers)--& register the >dissastisfactions, aspirations, & values of left-of-center, >suburban college-educated professionals). in australia we are experiencing much the same thing, a crisis in published poetry, oxford,penguin, uni. of queensland press suspending their australian poetry lists, the audience is too small, print runs of 500-750 for a poetry volume are no longer viable for the mainstream. the readers are poets and academics and fall into the same category of readership as described above(i.e.left-of-center,suburban college-educated professionals). many of australia's top mainstream poets are writing verse novels, dorothy porter, les murray, and thus moving into a more lucrative field of fiction novel. the newer mainstream poets, lawrence, kinsella, and younger generation of mainstream poets, like jordie albiston, catherine bateson, ian mcbryde, corul hull, rebecca edwards, lisa bellear, and a host of graduates from creative writing programs, are being published by the mainstream literary journals which are still relatively financial and successful. however the live reading/sounding of poetry at literary festivals throughout australia has never been more active, festivals have never been more active. the live experiencing of literature seems to be growing at the inverse rate to the decline in a reading audience. needless to say the newer mainstream poets are also very good at presenting their work in public. >2. alternative poetries are not diametrically dissimilar to mainstream >poetry, but actually share/reproduce many of the symptoms of this >crisis-in-complacency. this is not, however, necessarily a *bad* thing >inasmuch as it might be more useful & interesting for poetry to make the >symptoms of capitalism, etc. *exemplary* rather than to propose >"alternatives" or "solutions". again in australia, the non-mainstream press, is publishing poets, much the same poets that the mainstream presses were publishing and a whole bunch of poets aspiring to be published by the mainstream presses. in these publications the poets take a more active role in the distribution and sales of the book making the operation more financially viable. again public appearance and performance aids book sales immensely. what you haven't mentioned in your post, jacques, is a listening audience for poetry, an audience that has come to poetry through live performance venues. (like slammers and nuyorecan-style poets in the usa, and ravers and ranters of the uk). in australia there is another strata of the non-mainstream poets that don't seek print publication, (but do occassionally get published), that have through the eighties and nineties, established a career from the performance of their work in public. myron lysenko, steven herrick, geoff goodfellow, lauren williams, mark gliori, kerry scuffins, jenny boult, steve holiday, and myself, (before selling out to the academy for a 9 to 5 job with holiday pay after fifteen years on the road as a performance poet). their existence is proof enough that there is a listening audience for poetry. Twenty years ago these three groups were politically and stylistically opposed. Unlike in the usa(re beach), the mainstream australian poetry was greatly influenced by overseas theories of language, linguistics, marxism, and psychoanalysis, and shunned the themes or concerns of university based creative-writing programs which didn't really become part of academia until the late eighties. The small press poets were more interested in "real stories", lyric narratives and experimental poetries(catching up with the avant-garde), and trying to shake the mainstream establishment poetry. Strangely enough this is the reverse situation to what beach describes in the usa over the same period. Interesting, the cultural implications here, american mainstream resists french theory, australian mainstream, seeking recognition internationally, embraces international theories of poetry. The alternate scene in the usa embraces new french theorists that mainstream has rejected, plus developing the work of homegrown usa avant-garde groups. The official alternate scene in australia followed the progress of the new american poetry of the mainstream,ie ashbery etc, as well as the alternative beats, language and multicultural poets. The performance poetry scene was just taking off, (eric beach was probably australia's first professional performance poet, he had a business card which read, "eric beach, poet, no fixed address"), the poets union was formed in each state and there was an active cafe/pub live scene which produced poets who developed at performance venues, hearing and listening to poetry, not in a workshop or in a library and not relating or even knowing about the existence of the other two groups, let alone french, american literary theorists. Poetry was blood-letting, concentrating on the personal, political, psychological and everyday. Today,in australia, the three groups do not differ a great deal in style and content in their poetry, there has been much crossover and convergence in the last twenty years. Despite the differences, australian and usa present day experience, shows that the publishing of poetry is in crisis, there isn't an audience that wants to read poetry from a book. australian experience may cast doubt on professor beach's conclusion that the writing program academy is at fault for the drop in readership. the australian experience would imply that making the poetry too ecclectic, dare i say elitist, in their thematic concerns too tied up with a knowledge of literary theory and not with the poem as artisic/aesthetic object, has caused the decline of book reading audience. however maybe it is neither, maybe the academies have just mapped two different paths of many possible paths. perhaps we have something to learn from looking at what we do have. We have an active large and growing audience that likes to listen and to experience poetry in person, in the flesh, to hear poetry being read, recited, performed, uttered, projected, animated, call it what you will. Perhaps the audience has changed, or is changing from the traditional silent reading audience to an attentive listening participatory experience of poetry. perhaps we as people want to receive our poetry differently in 2000, 55 years after hiroshima. Perhaps what is at fault here is that we don't look sideways sometimes. how long have the language poets been seeking acknowlegement in the usa? how long will the slammers be ignored as a poetic phenomenon of our age, or the uk ranters and ravers, john cooper clarke, attila the stockbroker, benjamin zephanaia, lenton quesi johnson, june binta breeze, or the australian performance poets mentioned earlier? We see poetry, but only a slither of the spectrum. > >3. for example, silliman's "solution" of a more locally-oriented poetic >strikes me actually as extremely, if unintentionally, conservative. for one >thing, it would tend, of course, to leave in place the status quo ideological >& aesthetic assumptions of more ambitiously positioned poetries like language >(not coincidentally). this is particularly evident for instance w/ the more >noticeably regional poetic groupings like apg-- which, although it produces >interesting work, is in an extremely unoriginal position vis langpo--or >boston, on the other hand, which is largely frozen in an olsonian aesthetic. >what exp poetry needs is in fact an "outside" -- an alternative, just for a >start, to all the *puffing* that constitutes the critical discourse (for what >it's worth) that surrounds it. indeed, rather than the chaos of >proliferating books & presses, the reception of alt poetry & its relationship >to its audience seems more & more regulated by networks of affiliation >structured by a.) apprentiships by emerging poets to more established writers >& b.) accreditation/initiation in/by graduate writing &/or english depts at >buffalo, brown, naropa, san diego, etc. > We see poetry, but only a slither of the spectrum. We see poetry, but only a slither of the spectrum. We see poetry, but only a slither of the spectrum. >4. poetry, both mainstream & avant-garde, has become a minor genre in almost >every respect. it is, for instance, telling that so few of the poets writing >in the contributors's notes of fence magazine, when prompted to name their >favorite books, mention poetry books. even the way the word is pronounced >--po *em* --with the stress on the second syllable-- seems to attest to its >anachronism. perhaps one could/should begin again by writing *pomes.* > >more later perhaps. . . . perhaps these writers are not reading poetry in books, were they asked who their favourite poet in performance was? or what poets they have heard? > >jacques > > komninos komninos cyberpoetry site http://student.uq.edu.au/~s271502 komninos zervos lecturer in cyberStudies griffith university gold coast australia +61 7 55948602 k.zervos@mailbox.gu.edu.au ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:59:11 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: komninos zervos Subject: Re: end of century reading material In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:38 PM 12/30/99 -0500, you wrote: >I got a posting from someone asking what everyone was reading now, at the >end of the century, which I thought was such a lovely idea, until I >realized that posting came from a different list I'm on. So I'm >introducing the idea here. Bedside stacks, circa the flip of the nines to >zeros? sure barthes, 1972, 'work to text', 'the grain of the voice', in 'image-music-text'. kristeva, 1984(first published{french} 1974), 'genotext and phenotext' in 'revolution in poetic language'. laurel, 1990, 'computers as theatre'. beach, 1999, 'poetic culture'. plant,1997, 'zeros and ones'. these are keeping me busy 55 years after hiroshima at point time-zero in cyberspace. komninos zervos ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 11:08:35 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: komninos zervos In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:05 PM 12/30/99 -0500, you wrote: > # # # > # ## # > # # # # > # # # # > # # ## > # # #/around/about > > > # # # # #### # # > # # # # # # ## ## > # # ###### # # # ## # > # ## # # # # # # # > ## ## # # # # # # > # # # # #### # #what/where > > > ##### #### > # # # # > # # # # > # # # # > # # # # > ##### ####/say/hear > > > # # ###### > # # # > # # ##### > # ## # # > ## ## # > # # ######/you/i > > > ##### # ## #### ###### > # # # # # # # # > # # # # # # ##### > ##### # ###### # # > # # # # # # # > # ###### # # #### ######/embrace/space > > > #### # # ##### > # # # # # # > # # # # # # > # # # # ##### > # # # # # # > #### #### # #/mine/mine/mine > > > ###### ## # ##### # # > # # # # # # # > ##### # # # # ###### > # ###### # # # # > # # # # # # # > # # # # # # #intellect/knowledge > > > ##### #### > # # # > # # # > # # # > # # # > # ####by/for > > > #### ## ##### ##### # # > # # # # # # # # # # > # # # # # # # # > # ###### ##### ##### # > # # # # # # # # # > #### # # # # # # #/teleport/infuse > > > # # #### > # # # > # # #### > # # # > # # # # > #### ####me/me/i/i/me/i/i/i/ > > > ## #### ##### #### #### #### > # # # # # # # # # # > # # # # # # # #### #### > ###### # ##### # # # # > # # # # # # # # # # # # > # # #### # # #### #### ####/through/up/throwup > > > ##### # # ###### > # # # # > # ###### ##### > # # # # > # # # # > # # # ######/he/she/it > > > #### ##### ###### ## ##### > # # # # # # # # > # # # ##### # # # > # ### ##### # ###### # > # # # # # # # # > #### # # ###### # # #/insignificant/infinite > > > ##### # # # # ##### ###### > # # # # # # # # # > # # # # # # # # ##### > # # # # # # # # # > # # # # # # # # # > ##### # ## # ##### ######/unification/coming together > >myself and only me, i,i,i,i. komninos cyberpoetry site http://student.uq.edu.au/~s271502 komninos zervos lecturer in cyberStudies griffith university gold coast australia +61 7 55948602 k.zervos@mailbox.gu.edu.au ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 11:29:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Tedd J. Mulholland" Subject: Re: end of century reading material Comments: To: "Arielle C. Greenberg" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit More than happy to answer this question as my first post to the list (': various writings of Mikhail Bulgakov the newly published collected fictions of J.L. Borges soon to add the collected poems selected poems of T.S. Eliot various readings from works by Keith and Rosemarie Waldrop Stein's Tender Buttons and Medit. Miller's Sexus Joyce's Wake Various Pynchon Collected Paul Celan Tom Phillips R. Silliman plan to pick up some Eco on semiotics So, reviewing the list, im feeling a bit ADD . . . some titles and writers are constants and the list is far from complete if you include random reading of poetry, prose, and non-fictions as a side note, an introduction of myself may be appropriate, i hail from Atlanta and fraternize with the Atlanta Poets Group and as a further note, i plan on moving to Sacramento come next September, if any have info. on art and culture, living, etc. on the area, it would be greatly appreciated TEDD ---- you wrote: > I got a posting from someone asking what everyone was reading now, at the > end of the century, which I thought was such a lovely idea, until I > realized that posting came from a different list I'm on. So I'm > introducing the idea here. Bedside stacks, circa the flip of the nines to > zeros? > > I'm particularly excited to answer this myself, since as I write I am also > trying to gather books to bring on a three-day hide-out in an Adirondack > cabin. My house is stocked with books I bought in 99 and never had a > chance to read, so what to bring? > > Possible selections include: > Journals I bought from SPD: Volt, Big Allis, New American Writing, The > Hat, Fourteen Hills, American Letters & Commentary > Many new Barbara Guest books > The New American Poetry anthology I finally own > Wang Ping's Of Flesh and Spirit > French Symbolist Poetry anthology > New issue of Fence > Jena Osman's The Character > Plus novels I never got to read: Everlasting Story of Nory by Baker, The > Saskiad by Hall > Pride & Prejudice, which sig oth and I are reading out loud to one another > nightly > > > Also coming: > ingredients for tofu/mushroom thai curry > champagne, bien sur! > the new Stephin Merritt/Dolly Parton/Beastie Boys cds > pancake mix > videos: Modern Times (Chaplin), Rules of the Game (Renoir), 2001 > (Kubrick), Irma Vep (Assayas), Philadelphia Story (Cukor) > > > noisemakers for everyone! see you in the meltdown... > Arielle > > > **************************************************************************** > "I thought numerous gorgeous sadists would write me plaintive appeals, but > time has gone by me. They know where to get better looking boots than I > describe." -- Ray Johnson > -------------------------------------------------------------- Get free personalized email from GTE at http://www.gtemail.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 12:44:45 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gerald Schwartz Subject: Re: end of century reading material MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To The List, a list in no particular order: Metaphor Of Trees and Last Poems, William Bronk, 1999 The Cloud Of Unknowing (Clifton Wolters, Trans.), 1370 World Prefix, Harrison Fisher, 1989 Collected poems, Kay Boyle Herman Melville's UNCOLLECTED POEMS, various sources As far as "music" goes: SolomonsRamada, self-titled cd George Crumb, Black Angel cd Cecil Taylor, ALWAYS A PLEASURE cd and on and on.... Cheers, Gerald Schwartz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 12:00:30 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: end of century reading material In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991231105911.007d3760@uq.net.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII in the spirit of the traveling exhibitions CHIAPAS: LA PRIMERA REVOLUCION SOCIAL DEL III MILENIO and LIBERTAD EN LA ENSENANZA DE LOS ARTES: LA INFLUENCIA DE LOS REGIMS AUTORITARIOS-- HOUSE OF THE DEAD: F. Dostoevsky SOLEDAD BROTHER George Jackson GUADALUPE: MOTHER OF THE NEW CREATION Virgil Elizondo ESPANA, APARTA DE MI ESTE CALIZ Cesar Vallejo EL MEXICANO! JOURNAL GUERILLA DE LA GUERRE CIVILE EN ESPANGNE F. Perez Lopez CATAFALQUES POEMS 1987-1989 Eric Basso SPECIMEN DAYS Walt Whitman SELECTED WRITINGS Che Guevara MAYAKOVSKY AND HIS CIRCLE Victor Shlovsky ZAUM: THE TRANSRATIONAL POETRY OF RUSSIAN FUTURISM Gerald Janecek POESIA EXPERIMENTAL Clemente Padin THE LONG LONELINESS: THE AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF THE LEGENDARY CATHOLIC SOCIAL ACTIVIST Dorothy Day THE DEATH OF JIM LONEY James Welch OUEVRES Francois Villon OFFENDER HANDBOOK State of Wisconsin Department of Corrections Division of Community Corrections UNITED STATES CODE ANNOTATED TITLE 25 INDIANS BENEATH THE UNDERDOG Charles Mingus FOR BREAD ALONE Mohamed Choukri THINGS FALL APART Chinua Achebe two films: ANDREI RUBLEV D. Andrei Tarkovsky AGUIRRE DER ZORN GOTTES W. Herzog music AMAZON Nana Vasconcelos EL CORAZON Don Cherry & Ed Blackwell SONNY'S TIME NOW Sonny Murray, Don Cherry and others--one side with "Leroi Jones" reading THE COMPLETE BLIND WILLIE JOHNSON MALCOLM X Speeches (excerpts) EAGLEYE CHERRY HANK WILLIAMS: COMPLETE SINGLES COLLECTION DICK DALE: TRIBAL THUNDER GEORGE JONES: THE BRADLEY BARN SESSIONS; HARDCORE HONKY TONK ETTA JAMES: PEACHES BACK TO THE STREETS: CELEBRATING THE MUSIC OF DON COVAY DESPEARTE ROCK AND ROLL Vols 1-15 dbchirot ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 13:36:11 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: Re: end of century reading material MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harp Song for a Radical: The Life and Times of Eugene Victor Debs by Marguerite Young The Arcades Project by Walter Benjamin Gilles Deleuze and the Ruin of Representation by Dorothea Olkowski Imagining Language ed. by Rasula and McCaffery CDs: The John Adams Earbox The Melody at Night with You (solo jazz piano) by Keith Jarrett ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 11:44:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: query re philosophy books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For those of you who may be teaching philosophy, or poetry & philosophy, or others -- My father-in-law has expressed a recent interest in reading philosophy, perhaps partly influenced by his advancing age and brushes with health problems in the last year. He has not read much philosophy or literature in the past, but is an intelligent reader. He also has a birthday coming up. So I would like to give him one or two basic books or introductions to philosophy -- maybe one to the history of philosophy and one to 20th century philosophy; from there he can read individual authors' works as he wishes. But I really don't know of any great introductory books in this field. From some web searching I have found the following titles -- Introduction to Philosophy : Classical and Contemporary Readings by John Perry (Editor), Michael Bratman (Editor) What Does It All Mean : a Very Short Introduction to Philosophy by Thomas Nagel The Great Philosophers : An Introduction to Western Philosophy by Bryan Magee Does the Center Hold? : An Introduction to Western Philosophy by Donald Palmer Does anyone have any recommendations or anti-recommendations for these or any other related books? thanks to all for any advice whatsoever, and best wishes to all on this new year's eve, which is my first day backon the poetics list in many many months, charles ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 14:25:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Subtext presents Jen Hofer and Bryant Mason on Jan. 5th Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Forward. Note this reading is in Vancouver, BC From: "R. Bryant Mason" Subject: Subtext presents Jen Hofer and Bryant Mason on Jan. 5th Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 22:49:51 -0800 Subtext continues its monthly series of experimental writing with readings by Jen Hofer and Bryant Mason on Wednesday, January 5, 2000 at the Richard Hugo House. Suggested donations for admission are $5 at the door on the evening of the performance. Jen Hofer is a poet and translator originally from the San Francisco Bay Area. She currently lives in Mexico City, where she is editing and translating an anthology of contemporary poetry by Mexican women that will be co-published by University of Pittsburgh Press and Hotel Ambosmundos Press. Her translations and poems can be found in recent or shortly forthcoming issues of Explosive, Facture, Kenning, Rhizome, Skanky Possum and in her a+bend press chapbook as far as. Recently, she and her fiddle have joined forces with the visual artist Melissa Dyne, forming Groundzero Telesonic Outfit International. Bryant Mason is a long time member of the Subtext collective. His work has been variously described as "lightheartedly paranormal" and "born of an almost religious fervor." He promises to leave his Ukulele at home. Also this January, a special pre-reading event: Subtext's "silent open mic." A full twenty minutes before the reading you will experience a multi-media slide show extravaganza that incorporates projected texts, images, and the anonymous sounds of DJ Yum Yum. For more information about the slide show and how to submit art and text, e-mail . Look to the future, Subtext presents Bay Area poet Carla Harryman on February 2nd. Also reading will be Jeanne Heuving. Subtext readings fall on the 1st Wednesday of the month at the Richard Hugo House. The Hugo House is located at 1634 11th Ave on Capitol Hill in Seattle. Subtext events are co-sponsored by the Richard Hugo House. Bryant Mason Subtext ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 13:29:06 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Subtext presents Jen Hofer and Bryant Mason on Jan. 5th In-Reply-To: <199912311927.OAA21311@nico.bway.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi, Unless Bryant moved further than just across the street last month, This reading is in Seattle where he works with the Subtext collective, rather than in BC. Bests, Herb >Forward. Note this reading is in Vancouver, BC > >From: "R. Bryant Mason" >Subject: Subtext presents Jen Hofer and Bryant Mason on Jan. 5th >Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 22:49:51 -0800 > >Subtext continues its monthly series of experimental writing with readings >by Jen Hofer and Bryant Mason on Wednesday, January 5, 2000 at the Richard >Hugo House. Suggested donations for admission are $5 at the door on the >evening of the performance. > >Jen Hofer is a poet and translator originally from the San Francisco Bay >Area. She currently lives in Mexico City, where she is editing and >translating an anthology of contemporary poetry by Mexican women that will >be co-published by University of Pittsburgh Press and Hotel Ambosmundos >Press. Her translations and poems can be found in recent or shortly >forthcoming issues of Explosive, Facture, Kenning, Rhizome, Skanky Possum >and in her a+bend press chapbook as far as. Recently, she and her fiddle >have joined forces with the visual artist Melissa Dyne, forming Groundzero >Telesonic Outfit International. > >Bryant Mason is a long time member of the Subtext collective. His work has >been variously described as "lightheartedly paranormal" and "born of an >almost religious fervor." He promises to leave his Ukulele at home. > >Also this January, a special pre-reading event: Subtext's "silent open mic." >A full twenty minutes before the reading you will experience a multi-media >slide show extravaganza that incorporates projected texts, images, and the >anonymous sounds of DJ Yum Yum. For more information about the slide show >and how to submit art and text, e-mail . > >Look to the future, Subtext presents Bay Area poet Carla Harryman on >February 2nd. Also reading will be Jeanne Heuving. > >Subtext readings fall on the 1st Wednesday of the month at the Richard Hugo >House. The Hugo House is located at 1634 11th Ave on Capitol Hill in >Seattle. Subtext events are co-sponsored by the Richard Hugo House. > >Bryant Mason >Subtext -- Herb Levy NEW MAILING ADDRESS: P O Box 9369 Forth Wort, TX 76147 NEW PHONE: 817 377-2983 same old e-mail: herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 13:51:51 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 27 Dec 1999 to 29 Dec 1999 (#1999-238) In-Reply-To: <0.cf47a05d.259ddad7@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" thanks bob every piece of info helps. hope yr well at this turn of time into the future...md At 5:09 AM -0500 12/31/99, Nuyopoman@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 12/30/99 12:07:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU writes: > ><< Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 13:57:20 -0600 > From: Maria Damon > Subject: d.a.levy > > hi, i'm giving buddhist third class junkmail oracle a read...i find it very > depressing...like reading minima moralia...reading the brilliant > outpourings of someone who doesn't want to be alive and has no sense of > humor about it...can someone help me? >> > >Dear Maria, > >Death no parenthesis etc. > >That levy was hounded to death by CoIntelPro - 15-year old girl wired to >record a reading he gave in a church basement! >That he came under investigation because he was a Grand BooHoo in the >Neo-American Church, a complete sham created to poke fun at organized >religion but whose pataphysical hierarchy gave FBI something to believe in >(this revealed for first time in Golden's intro). >That he refused to leave Cleveland. >The he had published 55 books at time of death (26). >That his poems are the sheerest yowl and shriek song descant of the 60s. >That his spirit of mimeo lives on in internet. >That B3CJMO is a super testament, with great gruppby repros and even color >collages. > >My students at Bard couldn't get enough of him. > >After years of battling against the image of die-young romantapoet, I'm >coming to terms with levy, Frank Stanford, Larry Neal, Steven Jesse Bernstein >as repping some lineage, American grain . > >Love, > >BobH ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 15:25:02 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Randy Prunty Subject: Re: end of century reading material MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit my list: George Oppen, Collected Poems Tom Phillips, Works and Texts Why we feel: the science of human emotions, Victor Johnson Helen Keller or Arakawa, by Madeline Gins (great book!) Other: British and Irish Poetry, ed. Caddel and Quartermain Philosophy in the Flesh, Lakoff and Johnson The World is Round, Gertrude Stein Translating the Unspeakable, Kathleen Fraser cheers randy prunty ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 16:56:36 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Marks Subject: Re: end of century reading material MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Books: Imagining Language, Rasula and McCaffery (highly recommended) Of Grammatology, Derrida A Frolic of His Own, Gaddis (just finished) CDs: (highly influenced by my wife) Dick Dale & the Del-Tones Masada, John Zorn Annie Lennox REM PJ Harvey Beth Orton Sinead O'Connor P-Funk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 13:37:55 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lynn Langmade Organization: Water Music Subject: Re: end of century reading material MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A lurker rears her ugly head... Books Soren Kierkegaard; The Concept of Irony, With Continual Reference to Socrates Wassily Kandinsky: Point & Line To Plane Leonard Shlain: The Alphabet Versus The Goddess, The Conflict Between Word and Image Paul Levinson: digital mcluhan George Oppen: Collected Poems Brenda Hillman: Death Tractates Diane Zak, Visual Basic 6.0 CDs Siouxsie & The Banshees, Join Hands Siouxsie & the Banshees, juju PJ Harvey, 4-Track Demos PJ Harvey, Is this Desire? Moby, Animal Rights Mozart, Serenade in B Flat Major, K 361, "Gran Partita" Sinead O'Connor, The Lion & The Cobra John Coltrane, My Favorite Things The Sisters of Mercy; Floodland Leslie Bricusse, Willy Wonka & The Chocolate Factory Cibo Matto, Viva! La Woman Debussy, Children's Corner Kristen Hersh, Throwing Muses..ilk, Hips & Makers L7, Hungry for Stink Nymphs, Self Titled Sebadoh, Bakesale Nina Simone...everything Pink Floyd, Animals Videos Selections from the George Balanchine Library, Jewels, Tzigane, Andante from divertimento No.15, Prodigal Son, Ballo dell Regina ----- Original Message ----- From: Arielle C. Greenberg To: Sent: Thursday, December 30, 1999 11:38 AM Subject: end of century reading material > I got a posting from someone asking what everyone was reading now, at the > end of the century, which I thought was such a lovely idea, until I > realized that posting came from a different list I'm on. So I'm > introducing the idea here. Bedside stacks, circa the flip of the nines to > zeros? > > I'm particularly excited to answer this myself, since as I write I am also > trying to gather books to bring on a three-day hide-out in an Adirondack > cabin. My house is stocked with books I bought in 99 and never had a > chance to read, so what to bring? > > Possible selections include: > Journals I bought from SPD: Volt, Big Allis, New American Writing, The > Hat, Fourteen Hills, American Letters & Commentary > Many new Barbara Guest books > The New American Poetry anthology I finally own > Wang Ping's Of Flesh and Spirit > French Symbolist Poetry anthology > New issue of Fence > Jena Osman's The Character > Plus novels I never got to read: Everlasting Story of Nory by Baker, The > Saskiad by Hall > Pride & Prejudice, which sig oth and I are reading out loud to one another > nightly > > > Also coming: > ingredients for tofu/mushroom thai curry > champagne, bien sur! > the new Stephin Merritt/Dolly Parton/Beastie Boys cds > pancake mix > videos: Modern Times (Chaplin), Rules of the Game (Renoir), 2001 > (Kubrick), Irma Vep (Assayas), Philadelphia Story (Cukor) > > > noisemakers for everyone! see you in the meltdown... > Arielle > > > **************************************************************************** > "I thought numerous gorgeous sadists would write me plaintive appeals, but > time has gone by me. They know where to get better looking boots than I > describe." -- Ray Johnson > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 16:44:59 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: end of century reading material In-Reply-To: <005701bf53d7$4c957300$31568218@we.mediaone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" okay. booksies: d a levy, buddhist 3rd class junk mail oracle philippe lacoue-labarthe, poetry as experience the new york times american heritage cookbook various works in progress by friends and students, cindluing i mean including: essay by dave roediger on surrealism in Black texts essAy by walter lew on frances chung (it's good walter i'll get back to you later in more detail) essays on bob kaufman by various groovoids ceedees: lama's chant gyuto monks alain stivell roy hargrove cesaria evora ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 18:07:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Knoebel Subject: Oh MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Of course I knew It started in New York City when that ball landed at Times Square, and bounced hour by hour west to San Francisco. I never imagined time rolling 'round the Earth on the edge of a shadow pushing the new incessantly west from Kiribati. -- David Knoebel http://www.clickpoetry.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 15:28:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: end of century reading material In-Reply-To: <9912311129122A.03052@weba4.iname.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This what are you reading right now business shows up on this list about three times a year. I am always amazed that most respondees are reading eight or ten books at once. I just cant handle that many at once. At the moment I am reading D.G. Jones's new book of poems entitled _Grounding Sight_ and Beckett's _Eleuthera_. George Bowering. fax: 1-604-266-9000