========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:52:03 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: poetics journals In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000127164533.006cc71c@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Witz, Shark, Tripwire, Aerial's last couple. > > And Aerial off and on over the years. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Whoppers Whoppers Whoppers! Math, University of Kansas | memory fails Lawrence, KS 66045 | these are the days." 785-864-4630 | fax: 785-864-5255 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.math.ukans.edu/~roitman/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:08:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jorge M. Guitart" Subject: Re: Titles In-Reply-To: <17.11254c2.25c33a5a@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rules for giving poems titles 1. If your poem is intended as a message, give it a title that reflects the content. This is equivalent to writing on the subject-matter line of a memo (hard or electronic). 2. If your poem is not intended as a message (i.e., if you are the kind of person who, when wanting to send a message , sends a memo or a note or a letter rather than a poem) give it a title for purely identificational purposes. Don't use numbers but words because they are much more mnemonic. That way you can say, for example, that they accepted, or rejected your poem so and so, rather than saying that they accepted or rejected your poem n, where n stands for any positive integer. In other words, always title your poems. Your family and your friends will greatly appreciate it and so will critics, scholars, and anthologists. Jorge Guitart --On Friday, January 28, 2000, 1:30 PM +0000 Gerald Schwartz wrote: > I'd like to present some reamrks on the procedure of giving a poem a > title, and would very much appreciate listmember comments, either from a > personal perpective...or from an at-large theoretical approach. > > This is, I hope, not just an excercise in mole-like pedantry. It is > intended not only to seek an enhanced understanding of how an individual > poem...or poems...are titled, but a query into the shape and variety of > these procedures. > > I begin at the begining, I see the procedure of giving a poem a title (in > my own practice the title is given after the poem is made), as an > intention to place a central image before the reader, an image of central > importance of some kind. Following this thread, the title could be seen > as acting as a kind of lantern of Diogenes, prompting a reader's > consciousness, and separating out the misdirection from the truth. > > Moreover, this procedure invites examination of the actual occurrences in > which a title is deployed by a poet to see what, if any, systematic uses > it has, and what, if any, organization of interaction it may be realted > to. > > One aspect of making a poem...giving it a title...can be that onne > announces the type of poem the poet means by initiating, and "I'd like to > have your attention on this poem" can be understood as doing that kind of > job. Obviously, (or maybe not), the titles of poems will be the ones > relevant for those settings. However, not all occurrences of this kind of > procedure happen this way, and many of those that are do not occur in > producing a title and do not do the work of announcing the type of poem > being presented. > > > Over... > Gerald Schwartz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:07:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Stefans, Brian" Subject: Cyberpoetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I agree with Kominos, Rebecca's post was a startling post for me to read, very beautifully put ideas. And the analogy with horror movies ain't bad -- it's an argument for the "absorptive" to some degree, in the sense that we expect readers/viewers to ignore the frame of the experience (the movie, the poem) but only so that the experience of the work be so complete that, once escaping from it, the frames through which one views the world (the eyeglasses, the 61st story window, the circle of friends who keep telling you "you don't love girl," the newspaper) are permanently altered. Would that more poems were as absorptive as horror movies, or that the forms don't nag you with their pretensions of "heightened language" and balanced emotion, or maybe I just mean, too bad more poems don't seem to want to be "of their time" in the way mainstream cultural products have to be. This is something of an inversion of Bernstein's idea regarding absorptive poetics, and yet absorption, to some degree, has to occur somewhere -- I call this the "entertainment value" of the piece (Smithson is turning in his spiral-shaped grave right now); Brecht, for example, a key figure for CB's essay, often wrote adopting these popular forms. It is these vehicles that may hold more "keys" to our understanding of today than the stripped down, value-"neutral" forms of most poems. > If we have learned anything as human beings these past few generations, it's that differences make life interesting. I, like Patrick Herron I've discovered (haven't checked out his site yet) started my creative life in computer programming, and then immediately took to Pound once starting poetry with the basic understanding that one poet can, should the decision be made, adopt pretty much any form to write provided the devotion to investigating the form is complete enough to follow it to its grisly ends. I thought that forms could be programmed -- indeed, you mention the masks, a Poundian interest obviously -- and by extension one could reprogram one's personality, which of course proves nearly impossible but to pretend, for a day or so, that you have adopted a series of values is something I do quite often (involuntarily, mostly). (Gary Numan was a recurring one.) To follow a form to its "grisly end" could mean a flirtation with values that, under daily, normal circumstances are repulsive or unattractive (try being the Marquis de Sade for a day), but I think the experiment a good one, and, yes, cyberpoetics could be the best field right now for exploring these. I have this idea of the interface creating, or recreating, a user's perceptual frame for the moments of engagement, and creating works that operate through several different interfaces (which is what I tried to do in "Naif and the Bluebells") challenges the idea, I hope, of the permanence of one's engagement with the computer, and by extension with any engagement with "reality." Well, my idea needs flesh. > And what could be more fascinating than expressing it in a language of transition and device. Also unsettling, but with great erotic potential. > Is the webpage, therefore, the mask of the cyberpoet? And are all of Pound's personae merely web-pages (alternative interfaces)? > The structure of the communication is certainly ritualistic. If you have the stomach for dense, uncolorful texts, you should try checking out Donald Davidson's writings on language, titles of which elude me right now but there are only two (Actions and Events may be one of them). > One must perform the ritual to gain the secrets that are gradually revealed: clicking, clicking, clicking, moving in deeper and deeper as a relationship develops between the cyberpoet and the viewer/reader. Funny how many people don't see this as a pursuit of depth, but an avoidance of depth. This [Rebecca's post] is practically a manifesto... When I was in Philly for the Philly Talks, some of the phone in questions asked about computer poetry (in this case, programs that are used to create poems that, in their "final life" are words on a page like any poet) where the content of such writing is. I rather inadequately answered that the poems enact a series of interactions with the computer, and by extensions certain types of systematic thinking, that provide something in the end of a drama, if we understand drama to portray interactions primarily, through humans. The first law (easily broken, of course) of dramatic writing is to make sure the people on stage are arguing about something, not agreeing and describing things in a similar fashion. (The first law of the poetics list seems to be that the argumentative threads live a little longer, and are I think more interesting, but they get tired when we take them too seriously, try to find "final" answers, as we would were Brian Denahey to take a swing at someone who's beeper went off in the audience, as he nearly did on Broadway.) I figure these works (which often involved the uses of "lyrical" texts, critical texts such as Bloom's Anxiety of Influence in one case, weird translations of people like Nerval, etc., were creating a field in which these figures argued [various figures like Brad Pitt and Gertrude Stein would make appearances, too]. This was to assure that they weren't leveled to a plain field of "democratic" mutual existence, the pop, the discursive, the artistic living on equal levels in some sort of utopian vision -- quite the contrary, the premises involve an understanding that, to most of us, even the "advanced," these discourses have their places in hierarchies, but hierarchies that are rather personal, not "eternal," and whose sounding (like one sounds a jungle jim by hitting it with a pipe) could provide pleasure. In any case, the main argument in these poems would be between the "natural hand of the poet" and the "system" that tends to want to compartmentalize and de-organicize this sense of naturalness, of wholeness (Anselm: I would say the Selected Poems de-organcized the continuum of your father's achievement in this way, punching holes in the sense of wholeness that was created by the day-to-day "project of the poet" that was TB's particular mission). The phone-in caller was not impressed. > This, educative aspect of cyberpoetry brings to the forefront a question of ethics. Do we really know what we are doing out there? Do we understand the relationship between the screen, the eye, the mind and the heart? This is interesting phrasing. Art as "educative" in some ways is not a generally held view, interesting that you find cyberpoetry being particularly positioned to pose these questions. I posted a long thing a few weeks ago -- that was rejected, unfortunately, or didn't show up -- that was a ramble to Jim Andrews about how all these web artists here in New York are working by day for major corporations, making tons of money, and seemed to have no problems having "two careers." My sense was that this dual careership actually hindered one's interest in web art as "educative," or as a philosophical or investigative field, in which ideas could be followed to their ends; the commercial relationship, I feel, will compromise this aspect, since my experience in the corporate world is that any sharp edges -- to one's personality, to one's speech, to one's ideas -- are always having to be rounded off, or to stop just short of the idea of retreating from the institution. I don't think that one has to retreat from the institution, but that one could possibly decide this and should be in a position to do so. > I hope it maintains a balanced representation. Imbalanced misrepresentation has its virtues, too. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:10:52 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: Titles In-Reply-To: <17.11254c2.25c33a5a@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I'd like to present some reamrks on the procedure of giving a poem a title... In the Jewish liturgy prayers are usually referred to by their first word or phrase: sh'ma yisrael; sim shalom; kol nidre; etc. This feels very comfortable and right to me and that's how I like to name things but I've learned that many readers don't like it, they see it as repeating the first line, so many of my poems end up with no titles. Titles as a summing up etc. make me uncomfortable for my own work, it doesn't quite fit. But then differentiating between pieces becomes difficult. So I started using stuff like smallcaps for the first word of a poem, but do people actually notice such small gestures? Note that new versions of Word will automatically name documents by their first phrase until told otherwise. Which of course becomes obnoxious --- the program deciding for you. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Whoppers Whoppers Whoppers! Math, University of Kansas | memory fails Lawrence, KS 66045 | these are the days." 785-864-4630 | fax: 785-864-5255 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.math.ukans.edu/~roitman/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:56:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Summi Kaipa Subject: Re: poetics journals In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Anyone have a current snail mail address for Juliana Chang? Thanx Summi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:55:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Shoemaker Subject: Re: documentary poems In-Reply-To: <42.f750ea.25c28fc2@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This reminds me a little of the way Zukofsky's research for the Index of American Design in the thirties was transmuted into material for "A." Also, another Rukeyser docupoem I like is "U.S. 1" (as in Rte. 1), which is about West Virginia miners, silicosis, etc. best, s On Fri, 28 Jan 2000, Stephen Vincent wrote: > Somewhere back in the 80's, Hilton Obenzinger (poet and Melville/Twain > scholar and List member) was hired to write a history of fires in New York > City. The client was the New York Fire Department's Union. The publishing > company (a vanity affair that specialized in doing books for municipal unions > - particularly cops and firefolks) went belly up after being sued for fraud > by - I believe it was - the Phoenix Police Department. An irony not lost on > Hilton, who was never paid, but turned his extensive research into New York > On Fire, a book of poems that constitute a unique document and measure of > City pyro-politics. Gothic, dramatic, witty, informed and smart. Still in > print and available (I believe) through Small Press Distribution. > Cheers, > Stephen Vincent > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 15:24:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: COMBO 5 - year two begins! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ccc ooo mm mm bbbb ooo 55555 > c c ooooo m m m m b b ooooo 5 > c ooooo m m m bbbb ooooo 5555 > c c ooooo m m b b ooooo 5 > ccc ooo m m bbbb ooo 5 > 5555 > > > COMBO 5 is here! Yes, the modest but sexy poetry mag that aspires to be > quarterly has made it past the first 4 quarters alive -- this is the 5th > quarter, that's overtime baby! Another funky cover, another great list > of contributors... > > POEMS & ARTWORK BY AMIRI BARAKA! > > POEMS BY... > > ANSELM BERRIGAN, MICHAEL GIZZI, JESSICA CHIU, > > RAY DI PALMA, DAVID KOPPISCH, LAURA GOLDSTEIN, BRIAN KIM STEFANS... > > BOOK REVIEW BY SHAWN WALKER... > > AND MICHAEL MAGEE'S CONVERSATION WITH BILL BERKSON > (PERHAPS HIS MOST EXTENSIVE INTERVIEW EVER) > > Are you gonna pass on this?! For godsakes come to your senses before it's > too late! Join our growing list of subscribers at the obscenely low rate > of $10.00 for 4-issues! Or, take us up on the ongoing offer of $20.00 for > issues 1-5 plus 6-8 as they arrive in the coming year. > > Or: go crazy and get a lifetime subscription for $50.00 -- having proved, > we think, that we're in it for the long haul, this maybe the best deal of > the bunch. > > You are of course welcome to simply order a copy of #5 at the low-low rate > of $3.00 per copy. > > check out our website at the new easy address: www.combopoetry.com > email Mike Magee for more information at mmagee@english.upenn.edu > or send cash or check to him at 31 Perrin Ave., Pawtucket, RI 02861. > > The magazine that Helen Vendler, George W. Bush and Margaret Thatcher > don't want you to know about can be on your doorstep in a matter of days! > Get in gear! > > -m. > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:36:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Damion Searls Subject: Re: documentary poems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" (I'm reminded by Stephen Vincent's "New York On Fire" post of:) Paul Metcalf. Most of his stuff is "documentary poetry" -- although I, for one, am not sure why he's usually put in the Poetry sections of bookstores instead of "[Prose] Literature." Then again, I taught "Firebird" (from Collected Works vol. 3) in the poetry segment of a course of mine once (that's the "New York On Fire" connection). Also check out "Genoa," "Middle Passage," and "Apalache" in vol. 1 and everything in vol. 2. Can I just say for a moment? -- I love Paul Metcalf. Also, perhaps, "documentary" is the very small and beautifully designed "Wrackline" by Daniel Bouchard, available through Small Press Distribution unless everyone else I've recommended it to have already bought a copy. Jena, can you email (the list or me backchannel) what you end up using and how it goes? Damion Searls ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:50:41 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Subject: Re: Success at last. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Delete button? I looked upper right, but it isnt there, Oh my, where is it? Of course, in it's usual place: lower right below number pad. For a moment I was quite worried: I thought it was lost. & what would I do without it. Sadly in broad spectrum treatments of art-as-social-phenomenon, the pleasures of reading for readers have to be disregarded. This is how the reduction that Tom Orange speaks is made. The reduction would be tolerable, if in fact every reader were exclusively concerned with measuring what was being read for a ranking -- as what? as a commodity? in competition in a market? I doubt whether that is how all -- or even most -- readers of poetry do read. But it would probably be the way that some professional critics might want to try to do their reading. For what? to further their critical fame? best Tony Green ----Original Message----- From: Jacques Debrot To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Saturday, 29 January 2000 07:39 Subject: Long Posts >The reason my own posts are sometimes too long is that, as it takes often 2-3 >days for a post to appear, and just as long to receive a response, I feel I >have to be , on complicated topics, somewhat more rigorous. My posts, I >noticed, were much shorter before the list was moderated, and are much >shorter on the other listserve in which I participate, where there is almost >no lag time between a posts being written and distributed. So the format, >which is, after all, intended to discourage substantive discussion, actually >exacerbates the weird form that discussion takes. But I do have a certain >aesthetic interest in seeing the medium--any medium-- misused--a *poetic* >interest--so perhaps there is a virtue in my boring people after all. > >--jacques > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:02:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Chris Kraus would like a word with you boys ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "WHO GETS TO SPEAK AND WHY?, I wrote last week, IS THE ONLY QUESTION." - Chris Kraus, _I Love Dick_ (Semiotext(e), 1997) I love Chris Kraus. (Thanks, Jordan Davis, for turning me on to her book.) I'm just about done with _I Love Dick_, and I wanted to suggest it, if Mark P., Stephen E., Jacques D., Anselm B., Tom O., and others involved/interested in the "power" discussion are interested, as being fairly relevant. It's ostensibly a novel comprised of love letters, and it's both, but it's also a way for Kraus to examine the very things you guys are examining (and/or dismissing) here. The book is, I guess you'd say, self-published, since Kraus edits the Native Agents series this book is part of. (Which sort of matters in this instance.) I'll post here a section from an interview with Kraus, and then a bit of the book ... it's kinda long ... FROM THE INTERVIEW: GI: When did the love letters change into a novel? You started writing, it became more compulsive, and then it must have clicked into a book project. You started to address an audience... CK: Well, I realized that I had a problem. And my problem was, as an artist, I had not been heard. And I didn't want to believe that the problem was my fault. I thought it was cultural. You know, like Deleuze says, life is not personal. Because if success is culturally determined then so is failure. And it seemed to me that a lot of women who were working in a vein similar to mine had also experienced this "failure." So what drove me on was trying to figure out why there was no position in the culture for female outsiders. You know, singular men are geniuses. Singular women are just "quirky." Of course I really have Dick to thank for this, because he gave me someone to write to. GI: There's a literary fashion now for confessional literature. On the one hand your book is confessional, on the other it's a book about the intellectual context of America in the past 25 years. What's the difference? CK: Well, I want to say there isn't any. And that's why this book is a strategic confession. I'm very drawn to the use of the first person. When I started the Native Agents series of books for Semiotext(e) seven years ago, it was to publish the kind of writing that I liked -- and that writing was entirely in the first person. And yet it was not an introspective, psychoanalytic "I." It was an "I" that was totally alive, because it was shifting. There's a tradition of American poetry that champions and celebrates this -- New York School, the Poetry Project and all of its successors. These people are true geniuses because they're living constantly with ideas, they're fluent in a huge literary tradition. And yet they're often denigrated by academe and the institutionalized avant-garde because these ideas are experienced immediately and personally. GI: So you think, like the '70s feminists thought, that the personal is political? CK: The personal pursued for its own sake is no good. The "I" is only useful to the point that it gets outside itself, gets larger. In writing this, I kept looking for other people's tracks that I was writing in. No one ever does anything for the first time. I discovered that the New Zealand novelist Katherine Mansfield had been there too -- SHE fell in love with Dick, and wrote a story about it. GI: Most of the successful art-world figures who you describe in I Love Dick are pretty fucked up. The whole show is revealed as being pretty dissatisfied.... CK: Yes! GI: So you'd have to reconsider the whole notion of privilege then, wouldn't you? CK: Well, once you call yourself the biggest asshole, you give yourself a lot of freedom. GI: So you put yourself in the abject position? CK: Life had put me in the abject position, so I thought I might as well take advantage of it. GI: So it's a kind of freedom. CK: If no one cares what you have to say, then you can say anything. > > > > > > > EXCERPT FROM THE BOOK 2. The Birthday Party Inside out Boy you turn me Upside down and Inside out.... -- late 70s disco song Joseph Kosuth's 50th birthday party last January was reported the next day on Page Six of the New York Post. And everything was just as perfect as they said: about 100 guests, a number large enough to fill the room but small enough for each of us to feel among the intimates, the chosen. Joseph and Cornelia and their child had just arrived from Belgium; Marshall Blonsky, one of Joseph's closest friends, and Joseph's staff had been planning it for weeks. Sylvere and I drove down from Thurman. I dropped him off outside the loft, parked the car and arrived at Joseph's door at the same moment as another woman, also entering alone. Each of us gave our names to Joseph's doorman. Each of us had names that weren't there. "Check Lotringer," I said. "Sylvere." And sure enough, I was Sylvere Lotringer's "Plus One" and she was someone else's. Riding up the elevator, checking makeup, collars, hair, she whispered, "The last thing you want to feel before walking into one of these things is that you're not invited," and we smiled and wished each other luck and parted at the coat-check. But luck was something that I didn't feel much need for because I had no expectations: this was Joseph's party, Joseph's friends, people, (mostly men, except for female art dealers and us Plus-Ones) from the early '80s art world, so I expected to be patronized and ignored. Drinks were at one end of the loft; dinner at the other. David Byrne was wandering across the room, as tall as a Moorish king in a magnificent fur hat. I stood next to Kenneth Broomfield at the bar and said a tentative hello; he hissed and turned away. A tighter grip around the scotch glass, standing there in my dark green Japanese wool dress, high heels and make up ... But look! There's Marshall Blonsky! Marshall greets me at the bar and says that seeing me reminds him of a party we attended some 11 years ago when I was Marshall's date. And of course he would remember, because the party was given by Xavier Fourcade to celebrate the publication of Marshall's first book, On Signs, at Xavier's Sutton Place townhouse. It was late winter, early spring, Aquarius or Pisces and I remember guests tripping past the caterers and staff to walk around the green expanse of daffodils and bunny lawn that separated us from the river. David Salle was there, Umberto Eco was there, together with a stable-load of Fourcade's models and a reviewer from the New York Times. At that time I was living in a tenement on Second Avenue and studying charm as a possible escape. Could I be Marshall Blonsky's perfect date? I'd given up trying to be as sexual as Liza Martin but I was small-boned, thin, with a New Zealand accent trailing off to something that sounded vaguely mid-Atlantic. Perhaps something could be done with this? By then I'd read enough that no one guessed I'd never been to school. Marshall and I'd been introduced by our mutual friend Louise Bourgeois. I loved her and he was fascinated by her iron will and growing fame. "It is the ability to sublimate that makes an artist," she told me once. And "the only hope for you is marrying a critic or an academic. Otherwise you'll starve." And in the interest of saving me from poverty, Louise had given me, for this occasion, the perfect dress: a straight wool boucle pumpkin colored shift, historically important, the dress she'd worn accompanying Robert Rauschenberg to his opening on East 10th ... Most of Marshall's friends were men -- critics, psychoanalysts, semioticians -- and he liked that he could walk me round the room and I'd perform for them, listening, cracking jokes in their own special languages, guiding the conversation back to Marshall's book. So French New Wave. Being weightless and gamine, spitting prettily at rules and institutions, a talking dog without the dreariness of a position to defend. Dear Dick, It hurts me that you think I'm "insincere." Nick Zedd and I were both interviewed once about our films for English television. Everyone in New Zealand who saw the show told me how they liked Nick best 'cause he was more sincere. Nick was just one thing, a straight clear line -- Whoregasm, East Village gore 'n porn -- and I was several. And-and-and. And isn't sincerity just a denial of complexity? You as Johnny Cash driving your Thunderbird into the Heart of Light. What put me off experimental-film-world feminism, besides all it's boring study groups on Jacques Lacan, was it's sincere investigation into the dilemma of the Pretty Girl. As an Ugly Girl it didn't matter much to me. And didn't Donna Haraway finally solve this by saying all female lived experience is a bunch of riffs, completely fake, so we should recognize ourselves as Cyborgs? But still the fact remains: You moved out to the desert on your own to clear the junk out of you're life. You are trying to find some way of living you believe in. I envy this. Jane Bowles described this problem of sincerity in a letter to her husband Paul, the "better" writer: "August 1947 Dearest Bupple, ... The more I get into it, the more isolated I feel vis-a-vis the writers who I consider to be of any serious mind. I am enclosing this article entitled New Heroes by Simone de Beauvoir. Read the sides that are marked pages 121 and 123. It is what I have been thinking at the bottom of my mind all this time and God knows it is difficult to write the way I do and yet think their way. This problem you will never have to face because you have always been a truly isolated person so that whatever you write will be good because it will be true which is not so in my case. You immediately receive recognition because what you write is in true relation to yourself which is always recognizable to the world outside. With me who knows? When you are capable only of a serious approach to writing as I am it is almost more than one can bear to be continually doubting one's sincerity...." Reading Jane Bowles' letters makes me angrier and sadder than anything to do with you. Because she was just so brilliant and she was willing to take a crack at it -- telling the truth about her difficult and contradictory life. And because she got it right. Even though, like the artist Hannah Wilke, she hardly found anybody to agree with her in her own lifetime. You're the Cowboy, I'm the Kike. Steadfast and true, slippery and devious. We aren't anything but our circumstances. Why is it men become essentialists, especially in middle age? And at Joseph's party time stands still and we can do it all again. Marshall walks me over to two men in suits, a Lacanian and a world banker form the UN. We talk about Microsoft and Bill Gates and Timothy Leary's brunches until a tall and immaculately gorgeous WASP woman joins us and the conversation parts away from jokes about interest rates and transference to make room for Her.... (As I write this I feel very hopeless and afraid) Later Marshall made a birthday speech for Joseph that he'd been scribbling on all night. And Glenn O'Brien, looking like Steve Allen at the piano, performed a funny scat-singing recitative about Joseph's legendary womanizing, wealth and art. Everyone clapping, laughing, camp but serious and boozy like in the film The Girl Can't Help It, men in suits playing TV beatniks but where's Jayne Mansfield as the fall girl? Then David Byrne and John Cale played piano and guitar and people danced. Sylvere got drunk and teased Diego, something about politics, and Diego got mad and tossed his drink in Sylvere's face. And Warren Niesluchowski was there, and John and Anya. Later Marshall marshaled a gang of little men, the banker, the Lacanian and Sylvere, to the card room to drink scotch and talk about the Holocaust. The four looked like the famous velvet painting of card-playing dogs. And it got late and someone turned on some vintage disco, and all the people young enough never to've heard these songs the first time round got up and danced. Funky Town, Le Freak and Inside Out.... The songs that played in topless clubs and bars in the late '70s while these men were getting famous. While I and all my friends, the girls, were paying for our rent and shows and exploring "issues of our sexuality" by shaking to them all night long in topless bars. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:41:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Hornik / Kulchur MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I also love Kulchur Press. Here's just a partial list of what Hornick put into print. An amazing roster: Berrigan, Ted, Ron Padgett and Joe Brainard, Bean Spasms Kulchur NY (1969) Elmslie, Kenward and Joe Brainard, Sung Sex (can't remember the date) Torregian, Sotere, THE AGE OF GOLD (POEMS 1968-1970) New York: Kulchur Foundation (1976) NOTLEY, Alice Waltzing Matilda Kulchur NY Adam, Helen Stone Cold Gothic NY: Kulchur Foundation Perreault, John Luck Kulchur Press NY (1969) Fagin, Larry RHYMES OF A JERK NY Kulchur Press 1974 Ferrari, Mary The Isle of the Little God Poems 1964-1980 Kulchur, Owens, Rochelle I Am the Babe of Joseph Stalin's Daughter: Poems 1961-1971 NY The Kulchur Foundation 1972 Kostelanetz, Richard I Articulations / Short Fictions New York: Kulchur Foundation, Greenwald, Ted. Licorice Chronicles. NY, Kulchur Foundation, 1979 Violi, Paul. In Baltic Circles. Kulchur, 1973 Antin, David. Talking. Kulchur, 1972 WARSH, Lewis Blue Heaven Kulchur Foundation NY 1978 CLARK, TOM At Malibu NY: Kulchur Foundation 1975 Charles Henri Silver Flower Coo Kulchur 1968 Giorno, John. GRASPING AT EMPTINESS: Poems. NY: Kulchur Foundation, (1985) Macadams, Lewis LIVE AT THE CHURCH NY Kulchur Hornick, Lita. NIGHT FLIGHT. (NY): Kulchur Foundation, (1982) Ford, Charles Henri. SILVER FLOWER COO. (NY: Kulchur Press, 1968) Adam, Helen. TURN AGAIN TO ME and Other Poems. (New York): Kulchur, (1977) Towle, Tony. NEW AND SELECTED POEMS (1963-1983). (NY): Kulchur Foundation, 1983 Plymell, Charles. THE TRASHING OF AMERICA. (NY): Kulchur Foundation, (1975) Ceravolo, Joseph. MILLENIUM DUST. (NY): Kulchur Foundation, (1982) Hornick, Lita. NINE MARTINIS. (NY): THE Kulchur Foundation, (1987) Ratcliff, Carter FEVER COAST NY Kulchur 1973 North, Charles Leap Year poems 1968-1978 Kulchur Foundation 1978. Waldman,Anne NO HASSLES : AN UNHINGED BOOK IN PARTS New York The Kulchur Foundation 1971. Waldman,Anne INVENTION New York The Kulchur Foundation 1985. Owen, Maureen. Hearts in Space. Kulchur Foundation, 1980 KOCH, KENNETH & KATZ, ALEX. Interlocking Lives. New York: Kulchur Press, 1970. Giorno, John Balling Buddha N.Y. The Kulchur Foundation 1970 ELMSLIE, Kenward. Album. Kulchur Press.1969 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 22:46:55 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathy Lou Schultz Subject: Re: documentary poems I really enjoy the notion of Dahlen's ongoing _A Reading_ as a documentary project. I think it makes a tremendous amount of sense: Documentary of time (bodily time, calendar time), life (as both reader/writer). Documenting one's reading life is very compelling. Kathy Lou Schultz Bev Dahlen's A Reading as a documentary (that's probably a stretch). > Dave Zauhar ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 15:38:25 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: Taylor Brady Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Will he or someone with his email get in touch please thank you all about b/c. et ___________________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell Double Lucy Books & Outlet Magazine http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:32:53 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: Re: documentary poems In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Also, Charles Bernstein's "Standing Target," in Controlling Interests At 05:44 PM 01/27/2000 -0600, you wrote: >At 12:11 AM -0400 1/27/00, Jena Osman wrote: >>I'm trying to put a class together that looks at "documentary" poems. The >>first thing that comes to mind is Reznikoff's _Testimony_. Also Rukeyser's >>"Book of the Dead." I'd like to generate a list of poems (particularly >>contemporary ones) that might fall into this category. Any suggestions? >>Thanks, >>Jena > >i teach a unit on "documentary poetry" in which we look at Kamau >Brathwaite's Trench Town Rock and Hilton Obenzinger's New York on Fire. > > k e n n i n g a newsletter of contemporary poetry, poetics, and nonfiction writing http://www.avalon.net/~kenning 418 Brown St. #10, Iowa City, IA 52245, USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 19:22:23 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: "Cyberpoetry" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit does anyone have an E for John Byrum? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:11:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hilton Manfred Obenzinger Subject: Re: documentary poems In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Documentary poems: thumb through the works of Paul Metcalf, Allen Ginsberg's travel poems, my own NY on Fire, Mahmoud Darwish's poem on Beirut, Ernesto Cardenal, WCW's Patterson?, John Giorno's mirror repetition poems of the 60s and 70s? -- it depends on what you mean by "documentary" -- found pieces? refitted discourse? history? chatty talk? the possibilities are vast and delicious, and I'm sure there are far more. Hilton Obenzinger ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 08:47:51 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: the ethics of reading other people's mail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit stephen ellis's recent post "Up front and out of place" includes both confidential b/c correspondence of mine & part of a post I sent to the subsubpoetics list which is quoted out of context. his motivation was obviously to embarass and hurt me personally. fortunately, the lazy errors i mentioned amounted simply to my not wanting originally to take the trouble distinguishing carefully between Bourdieu's terms--it didn't seem worth the trouble & then I thought it did. the content itself, i don't retract at all; i merely conveyed it more clearly, i thought, in the second post. which is not to say that consistency is anything i care about. the poetics list has been a place where i liked to float new ideas & hunches. i think i profited sometimes from other people's disagreements w/ me. but it seems increasingly clear now that this is no longer--if it ever was-- a venue where people can talk frankly w/ out censure or discuss substantive topics w/out at the same time having to withstand personal insults of the kind that, for example, mark presjnar lobs at me after each post i make, or the anonymous phone calls i received after posting about the boston poetry conference. indeed, any pretension the alt poetry community has (at least that part of it represented by the list) about its ethical, cultural, or political superiority has to be questioned very skeptically when frank discussion among progressive *poets* in a public forum seems to be, w/ notable exceptions, impossible. why, after all, do you think so many of the poets featured prominently in @poetics have apparently left the list or only lurk now? p.s. it will be very revealing (as this note probably won't be posted until mon) to find out, in the meantime, *who* on the list thinks it's ethically acceptable to read other people's mail & comment on it. --jacques ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 22:30:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: documentary poems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Would recommend Peter Dale Scott's _Coming to Jakarta_ . (If this has already been mentioned, please excuse the redundancy. In upgrading my software, I lost a vast inbox stretching back for years, and making up for this loss has prevented me timewise from reading all posts on this or other topics. In this regard, if I owe you a post, pls let me know b-c asap....i have lost so many e-ddresses from my previous Nickname folder. Thank you.) David ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:30:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Power poetix In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" well i have to jump in here wrt bourdieu, whose work is useful to discussions of poetry and poetics (as david kellogg has amply illustrated, hi david!) yet whose work i have reservations concerning, at something approaching a macro level... and the best way to get at same is to quote here (sorry folks!) from (the late) bill readings's _the university in ruins_ (harvard, 1996)... now we don't have to agree with readings of course---i'm not offering this excerpt by way of "proof"---but i think he's onto something by way of larger postsecondary issues... and i think readings is suggesting here, in so many words, that there is in effect an "outside" to bourdieu (whom he couples in this regard with john guillory)---which is an ironic way of my saying that bourdieu's relatively closed symbolic systems (as some here have correctly intuited) are themselves part of the contested, and thereby highly theorized, site: "And when we speak of mapping, it is possible to understand why the analyses of Pierre Bourdieu have been so attractive to many people in Cultural Studies, since his practice of charting power relations along twin axes of power (symbolic captial and socioeconomic capital) permits the mapping of power relations in both the economic and cultural fields. The intersection of these axes produces a center, and positions of power are callibrated in terms of closeness to this center. [readings footnotes this and refers to bourdieu's chart in _homo academicus_] "The general notion of 'cultural capital' is one that seems more and more attractive to North American scholars in the humanities. Bourdieu is one of the more frequently cited theoretical authorities in a certain branch of Cultural Studies. I shall discuss his analysis of the events of 1968 later on, but for now I want to ask why a thinker whose analytic mode is conservative and normative (the mapping of social positions as algorithms of deviation within a closed national cultural field) should have been so attractive to those in Cultural Studies, who are normally concerned to make radical claims.... "Since Bourdieu has written a book on the University [i.e., _homo academicus_] and since he is currently very popular as a theoretical authority on culture, I want to take the time to trace the problems of his analysis of the system of cultural capital. This analysis is based on two essential assumptions: First, it it assumed that there is only one game: in order for culture to be a relatively autonomous social totality (capable of being mapped on the two axes), all cultural games are part of the great game of cultural capital. Second, there is no way out: the borders of the system are strictly drawn, and within them one can chart the distribution of cultural capital in terms of ratios of differing prestige. The single, closed game is the game of national culture, whose boundaries are accepted without question in order for analysis to proceed...." (105-6-7) readings goes on quite a bit here to reach the following conclusion (111): "The appeal of Bourdieu to thinkers like Guillory and to those who work more closely in Cultural Studies is that he offers an analysis of culture that can take account of its loss of any specific reference -- its dereferentialization -- while still being able to produce what looks like a positive knowledge about culture, by mapping the distribution of cultural capital in terms of proximity to or distance from a cultural center. I would argue that this is a misrecognition of the contemporary nature of power. Bourdieu and his followers fail to see that the center is not a real place any longer. As Foucault knew, panopticism is only one model of power (though many of his readers tend not to notice this). Culture is not a citadel to be occupied. In fact, no one sits in the center any longer. The center was once occupied by the institution of the nation-state, which embodied capital and expressed it as a culture that radiated across the field of the social. But the decline of the nation-state means that this center is actually a lure. Capital no longer flows outward from the center, rather it circulates around the circumference, behind the backs of those who keep their eyes firmly fixed on the center...." all sortsa implications here for importing bourdieu into the early 21st century north american? field of specifically *poetic* production (and whether or not we accept his claims re the demise of the nation-state, its replacement by transnational corporations etc.)... i think in any case it's important to bring in some critique of bourdieu, at least insofar as he DOES seem to be so popular in academic work, and hereabouts... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:25:18 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jesse glass Subject: An Amusing Thought MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Perhaps in the furture there will be a new science (or rather a continuation of an old) called Web Archaeology, in which scientists and scholars will peel back the layers of the net in an attempt to discover artifacts--poems, discussion lists, photographs, etc.--from previous times and reconstruct cultures from the past. I'm sure this has been stumbled upon by others and fleshed out in minute detail. Are there any articles out there that address this concept? Jesse About Jesse Glass. How to order his books. http://www.letterwriter.net/html/jesse-glass.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:24:35 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Comments: To: british-poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Writers Forum has published "wingless flies" by Cobbing and Upton, the latest pamphlet in the sequence Domestic Ambient Noise... ISBN 0 86162 935 3. distributed by New River Project, 89a Petherton Road, London N5 2QT Please send return postage ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:33:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Waber Subject: Re: Titles In-Reply-To: <17.11254c2.25c33a5a@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 01:30 PM 1/28/00 -0500, you wrote: >I'd like to present some reamrks on the procedure of giving a poem a title, >and would very much appreciate listmember comments, either from a personal >perpective...or from an at-large theoretical approach. From a personal perspective: The titling of a poem is almost a whole 'nother poem, in terms of importance. I went back through a scad and a half of my own poems to try and get an overview of my process, and I can't say there is much in the way of consistency of method or intent. Sometimes the title shines the light on the poem, certainly, but not always. Sometimes the title comes first, the poem after. Sometimes the "right" title never comes, and those are the poems that I continue to see as unfinished. I don't know that a title is supposed to do one specific thing. It can break a poem, that's for sure...and in some cases I believe it can make a poem. All I know for sure is that it needs to "fit", and that's hard to qualify. It can be the point, the counterpoint, the punchline, the touchstone, the heading, the bass note, the rhythm, the melody. It can be the first line or last line of the poem itself (and so be not as completely separated as a title might be thought to be), it can be no part of the poem at all. It can be a point or a misdirect, it can be a naming or a misnaming. It can set the stage or steal the stage. It just needs to be right for that particular poet's particular poem at that particular time, the goal being for that feeling of rightness to travel from the writer, with the poem, to the reader. I guess about all you could say for certain about the title, is that it is the first impression; but this is only mostly true even if I assume you are referring to traditional typeset page-delineated poetry. I find it amusing that "Untitled" is a title, one of the few one word oxymorons. There are many poems, of course, that do not have a title--not even "Untitled", and are not diminished in any way by doing without. Sometimes the best title *is* none at all. Would titling, then, be considered a literary device like alliteration, or end-rhyme? A tool to be used, or not used as the writer sees fitting to the piece? If so, then a taxonomy of types might be valuable. I checked The New Princeton Encyclopedia of Poetry and Poetics and could find nothing covering the process/conventions of titling. Sounds like a paper just waiting to be written to me. Dan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 15:50:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: experiments online? Comments: To: "pog (E-mail)" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm looking for lists of writing "experiments" (in addition to Bernadette Mayer's famous page), for use in a poetry for cw students grad seminar. any resources much appreciated. backchannel is fine. Tenney mailto:tenney@azstarnet.com mailto:nathanso@u.arizona.edu http://www.u.arizona.edu/~nathanso/tn/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:09:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jesse glass Subject: Core Seven MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a note to draw your attention to a fascinating little magazine originating in Australia. Core, edited by Cameron Lowe, Paul Howie, and Ben Lornie, consistently offers a venue for experimental writing and usually sports cover (or other) art by Pete Spence. Core 7 the Autumn/Winter issue offers work by Louis Armand, Charles Bernstein, Cat Concoy, Brian Edwards, Kevin Gilliam, Paul Hardacre, Rory Harris, Lyn Reeves, Spencer Selby, Jon West, and myself, among others. Core, P.O. Box 419, Geelong, Vic., 3213. Australia. Ten (Australian) dollars buys a one year subscription. Jesse Glass About Jesse Glass. How to order his books. http://www.letterwriter.net/html/jesse-glass.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 00:12:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: broken MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A new work by Barry Smylie and Alan Sondheim http://barrysmylie.com/flash/alan/broken.swf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 19:51:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Patrick" Subject: Re: Utopia, poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain George -- thanks very much for such a generous reading of my post! Yes, it all begins with Blake, with the mythos-shattering & forming of those great works, open-ended, where the longing for unitive closure vies with and is held in abeyance by the sense that totality wrecks ("foredooms" as you put it) -- and it continues with Duncan, whose own project may not be so Orphic as I first thought. If to call it "Orphic" we mean establishing the complete identity between idea and thing, signifier and signified, then yes, Duncan yearns for this, but also no, his project is too smart for this, he keeps on leaping ahead, never allowing the poem to rest for long in one place, knowing that positionality is best served up as a moveable feast. And the pressure utopia (a very vexed term, as you warily note) exerts on us from its "no-place" is great; it is the absence that is always questioning our present position with respect to those legitimating constructs we have assented to. How to think outside them? To think Outside at all is to think Utopia, maybe. Thanks for helping me to think through this a bit more -- and of course, so very much more could be said. Patrick Pritchett ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:06:48 -0500 Reply-To: joris@csc.albany.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Friday Feb. 4th/8pm @The Center Gallery/Albany MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF6BCA.82145680" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF6BCA.82145680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit for those in the Albany, New York area: 8pm Friday February 4th 2000 The Albany Center Gallery 23 Monroe Street Albany NY 12210 462-4775 “Things Fall Where They Lie” A Multimedia Performance by Nicole Peyrafitte With Saxophonist Holland Hopson $5 donation http://sites.netscape.net/peyrafitte/venus.htm "Freedom, that fragile element of the human edifice, rests upon the imagination, both in the sense of illusion and in that of emancipation through the use of symbols." André Leroi-Gourhan (Le geste et la parole) please forward ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF6BCA.82145680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
for those in the = Albany, New=20 York area:
 
 
8pm
 Friday February=20 4th   2000
 
The Albany Center=20 Gallery
23 Monroe Street
Albany NY=20 12210
462-4775
 “Things=20 Fall Where They Lie”
A Multimedia=20 Performance = by

 Nicole=20 Peyrafitte

With=20 Saxophonist

 Holland=20 Hopson 

$5  donation

 

http://sites.nets= cape.net/peyrafitte/venus.htm


"Freedom, that fragile element of the human = edifice,=20 rests upon the imagination,
both = in the sense=20 of illusion and in that of emancipation through the use of=20 symbols." 
 Andr=E9 = Leroi-Gourhan  (Le geste et la parole)
 
 
please = forward
 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF6BCA.82145680-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 18:11:18 -0500 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: STANZAS #22 new from above/ground press STANZAS #22 - Anne Stone issue an unnatural history of the sexes Anne Stone is a writer & text-based performance artist living in Montreal. she is the author of a chapbook, Sweet Dick All (reprinted by above/ground press, 1998), & the novels jacks: a gothic gospel (DC Books, 1998) & Hush (Insomniac Press, 1999). (an unnatural history of the sexes first appeared in the contemporary feminist baroque issue of Tessera.) STANZAS magazine is a long poem/sequence chapbook magazine publisht at random by above/ground press & edited by rob mclennan. distributed free. $10 for 5 issues, $2 sample (or large s.a.s.e.). previous issues include work by George Bowering, meghan lynch, carla milo, Jay MillAr, rob mclennan, R.M. Vaughan, natalie hanna, Judith Fitzgerald, Gerry Gilbert, etc. distribution: 750 copies. submissions encouraged, w/ s.a.s.e. (& patience). ad & magazine exchanges encouraged. people giving the editor free cars & money & alcohol encouraged. (all right, thats enough...) * available now * poetry chapbook series #5 subscriptions - $30 for chapbooks #21-25 & broadsides, including books by Adam Levin, meghan lynch, Laurie Fuhr, rob mclennan & others, as well as that big bloody stupid bibliography thing. (its large). make cheques payable to rob mclennan. above/ground press, rr#1 maxville ontario canada k0c 1t0. -- poet/editor/publisher... ed. STANZAS mag & Shadowy Technicians: New Ottawa Poets (Broken Jaw)... pub., above/ground press...coord., ottawa small press fair & Small Press Action Network - Ottawa ...snail c/o rob mclennan, rr#1 maxville on k0c 1t0 * 4th coll'n, The Richard Brautigan Ahhhhhhhhhhh (Talon) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:57:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Re: Power poetix In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII i think what Tom has written below is the most eloquent and forceful defense of Jacques' general approach, that one can make. he clarifies many things (tho' i (and others i believe) were not unaware of these ideas about the struggle for cultural capital...) but if one looks closely, as sophisticated and rich as the ideas sound, when put down in polished prose, they really lead almost nowhere...Nor are they very interesting and helpful, either to readers or poets. they simply lead to the same impasse Jacques has reached: people apparently wanna "best" other people, one concludes, and get more fame and acclamation than others do. if there is a more interesting and productive place this approach can lead, then i hope Jacques or Tom or someone can develop it here on the list, in relation to contemporary poetry. otherwise, it just sounds like a sourly conservative take on what poets do: like everyone they want to triumph over others in some symbolic way... It is in danger of becoming simply a vulger Reaganite poetics. very little of what is actually going on, in the work of poetry, is clarified by this; at best it's a truism, blown out of proportion; Bourdieu is now flavor of the month, in many intellectual and academic settings; (and i am impressed with what i know of his work); but the phrase "cultural capital" is one of those that threatens to become so self-evidently "right", that it replaces thought... best, --m. On Fri, 28 Jan 2000, Tom Orange wrote: > mark p, > > far from assuming the mantle of "the nonmainstream harold bloom," jacques > as i read him is strictly towing the line of bourdieu, to a fault even. > (tho i can see where his statement that "they [language poets] stand in > the way of the next generation" might suggest such a connection.) true, > both models view cultural production (or simply "poetry" for bloom) in > terms of power struggle. where bloom's model becomes severely > impoverished is, as you suggest, in looking solely to the abstraction of a > freudian oedipal complex as the engine that drives that struggle: the > ephebe is obsessed with the slaying of his poetic fathers, end of story, > more or less. and it's not simply that such a model can't be proven or > refuted, or that it's simply "a personal mindset," but that it's reductive > and not sufficiently nuanced to, for example, material concerns. > > here's where bourdieu is more useful (tho i think his model stands to gain > from a more sophisticated relationship to psychoanalysis), namely by > taking into account the roles that actual and symbolic capital play in > power struggles. part of the emancipatory gesture of not simply langpo > but nonmainstream post wwII american poetry that has generally thrived on > the little magazine and the small press is precisely to exercise control > over its own means of production. since these things of course do not > happen in a vacuum, and however oppositionally they may position > themselves vis-a-vis the larger field of poetic production (i.e. the > mainstream), the nonmainstream can not help but get caught up in the > dynamics of the larger field. or, at the very least, its own dynamics as > a sub-field can not help but be in some respects homologous to those of > the larger field to which it inheres. homologous, i would say, less in > terms of actual capital (i.e. the annual budgets of sun&moon, roof, the > figures, etc., are likely very unlike those of random house, etc.) than > symbolic capital (awards, back catalogs, blurbs, reviews, etc.). > > thus jacques' point, i take it, is, simply, that those publishing avenues > founded and fostered by language poets, insofar as they have come to > operate in part in terms of prestige, distinction, etc., i.e. they > accumulate and distribute symbolic capital, are forces with which a poet > working in an experimental or or nonmainstream vein must reckon. > > so when you claim that "to actual poets, actually engaging in their work, > and to readers of poetry who respond to it, this is not what's going > on," i might agree that cultural producers are not always consciously > aware of what i'm describing, i.e. "i'm going to write a series of poems > that are going to dethrone geoff young and doug messerli from their > thrones of power." but you are also suggesting, i think, that they are > operating 1) naively and with no sense of such operations, or else 2) with > no desire at all to see their work appear with publishers such as those > listed above. > > bests, > t. > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 11:15:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Nielsen, Aldon" Subject: Re: atopia In-Reply-To: <4f.af5709.25c23c0b@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" in a perfect world, there would be no utopian literature ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:52:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Stefans, Brian" Subject: Frances Chung's booklist Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi, Anselm. First, let me try to say: the game, thinking in diversity, our bewilderment detracts "down on yourself" the best shot as the words portend -- as split in All. (I've been relatively quiet on this.) WHAT THE NAME? The site is named 'proximate' as a nod to the... THE SELECTED POEMS OF FEDERICO GARCIA LORCA, ed. Francisco Garcia Lorca, and what is at stake when I talk about success in relation to experimental poetry. Obviously, I am not talking about Economic Donald M. Allen (various translators), PICTURE BRIDE, concept of proxemics in human communication, "proximate communications," specifically oral communications, Kapital, even though this is in fact obtainable by contained extralinguistic information, e.g., body language & context. That remote communications such as recordings or textual communications do not have, cannot have, the hope of the very small minority of experimentalist poets in the form of grants, issues aside from several respectful conversations backchannel with Internet (as some sort of transcendent medium) deserves serious skepticism when placed, in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, or in the endive tunnel (location prefigured in Tron) who, returning no e-mails, in such a light. Such a light? CATHY SONG, NO MORE MASKS! AN ANTHOLOGY OF POEMS BY Jacques, Patrick and others. Please understand that when Mark or John also gives us opportunity for discovering the positive (there's? "choose to post to the List") they are doing the sale of personal papers and correspondance (an unusual example would SO, only speaking for themselves), I think of always the tension, the conflict. The name "proximate" is also a pun on intimacy on the internet, as in a proxy mate. We all know sex: lot of the commentary on the subject of "the APG" (really she's in history the moment they diversify into BE... say, Ginsberg's selling his papers to Columbia for a million WOMEN... ed. Florence Howe and Ellen Bass). THE has to do more with how the APG has been viewed based upon NEW AMERICAN POETRY, 1945-1960. Ed. Donald M. Allen. THE VOICE? wingdings as the beatbox track chimes in austrian vicinity in dollars. But the fact that anyone reading this post would feel that, is GREAT. Within us? AMERICAN POETRY OF THE TWENTIETH CENTURY., ed. Hayden Carruth, FIVE DECADES, A SELECTION (POEMS 1925-1970), Pablo Neruda, all uncomfortable with the idea of their postings from mainly two people than it does with the APG as a heavy bastard on the beach ball fired from a canon, communitas in the cloisters commingling with trismagistus, swathing their heads, being any possible financial renumeration for experimental writing would only demonstrate. The extent to which the game of poetry is one of _loser wins_, it will always be an _oppositional_ game in text and a battle of rhetorics such inasmuch as it functions by the *inversion* of the principles organizing sells, especially on the internet. The internet seems to be used as an actual group of individual people, but I'm going to give my (that the corsair archeologist makes intelligent play) take on some of the questions Brian (so Brian Eno: "fuck-a dis, fuck- dat," sometimes thoughtful people are) confined to wheelchairs in memory for the seven reasons punk died. Plastered to proxy for human contact and proximal communication, which gives me, asked, regarding the APG: the APG does the business economy--in that cultural production exists fundamentally as WHEN THE FREEWAY AGAIN, ANONYMOUS WITH A SEVENTY GALLON HAIRCUT, SOMETIMES BRAS, Ed., trans., Ben Belitt., and SUNFLOWER SPLENDOR. Ed. Wu-chi Liu and Irving Yucheng Pause. Such an intuition adds to what I sense as a sort of growing desperation for real, physical human contact, particularly in America, with everyone it is as severely restricted as exp poetry is, a production for producers. Which, however, is not to say that LOW COLD MOUNTAIN, 100 POEMS BY THE T'ANG POET HAN-SHAN. trans. Burton Watson, or TRANSLATIONS FROM THE CHINESE. trans. Arthur Waley, lead the world of alternative poetry and the world of business, and not CH'ING-CHAO: COMPLETE POEMS. trans. Kenneth Rexroth and Ling Chung. Homologous! The alternative poetry world, whatever else it is, is a hierarchical social space in which agents--poets-- working on him- or herself, never time for affection, only time for status, career, a new car. Such use of energy may be at odds with a not-have-an-agenda, other than providing an opportunity for CHINESE FOLK POETRY. (trans. Cecilia Liang.), or ONE ROBE, ONE BOWL. (trans. John). Make sense, hippie! Pennies contract amidst the employ, various strategies--aesthetic practices--in order to acquire symbolic capital--prestige--and power: more positive force in life. The world has some strange dynamic property (of a certain kind). Indeed, the power resulting from the people interested in poetry and poetics (other than the usual Southern narrative poetry [Stevens, ONE HUNDRED POEMS FROM THE CHINESE. trans. Kenneth Rexroth, ABC OF READING]) to it; there's something beyond our knowledge, yet within, around: SELECTED POEMS, Ezra Pound, THE COMPLETE POEMS OF CHARLES BIG SUR, cataracts, dungareed dudes with digeridoos, values, every other muscle pure snowflake (that is prevalent in Atlanta). To get together? REZNIKOFF, Vol. 1 and 2. SELECTED POEMS, Kenneth Patchen! Perhaps such a thing helps explain the necessity for contact. The acquisition of symbolic capital is the very thing -- and that's where the pastoral begins the satire that legitimizes the authority of critical interpretations and aesthetic judgments, generally to discuss same, share what they've written, work on some ocassional collaborative works, and try to get stuff published. Perhaps. (And their reproduction through the efficacy of institutional cultural [the problem from the beginning] was that since the APG defined itself as a "group." It allowed for others EMERGENCY POEMS, Nicanor Parra, trans. Miller Williams.) CONFIGURATIONS? Internet is often used as a substitute for that contact, but it (to assume that we were grouping, because we had a shared: (1) private language; (2) politic; (3) aesthetic approach, and; (4) careerist plan) NOW can't do that well... there IS no substitute. The "I" that the pun OctavIo Paz. trans. G. Aroul et al. SUN, v. 4.2.??? I was not there from the beginning which offends, in case this ambiance is protective spring (1975), NEW POETRY OF MEXICO, selected with notes by Octavio Paz and others, ed. Mark Strand (quite early one) -- ain't such somonex clues us. It was decided somehow that this bunch-in on the big arrears, "Papa don't do the small phrase anymore," leaping leotards, batman (my piracy's now the mode) cushion -- pomo, airy and tight -- the fragility of a mind on ACID MORNING (Dylan Thomas), and ONE HUNDRED MORE POEMS FROM THE JAPANESE OF PEOPLE, would call themselves something. When I met up with John and Randy all they told me was: "Offends... leaping over the desert highway... into technology and exchequer..." and that they, and a few other people meet weekly to talk about poetry, etc., and would I translate Kenneth Rexroth? "IF YOU WANT." To be interested in stopping by? "There?" Was the stetson blood? Is restless my bod? "On a zine haircut, beneath the cloying smile pill." Seems I've pivots: "on" is relevant to a constant concern throughout the site: no agenda, no sales pitch, no 12 step program--just "this is the poetry that we know": WHAT WE ARE: A CARLOS BULOSAN READER. Ed. E. San Juan, into, sort of, like the idea for starting the List Jr. ("HOME TO STAY, ASIAN AMERICAN WOMEN'S FICTION. ed. Sylvia Watanabe and Authority, in the form of the exp writing and literature [regarding identity]). "I"? Y? WHY THE SITE? I have authored this site as a byproduct of (I'm posting right now) a community of discussions I have had regarding the internet, Carol Bruchac, TAKING TO WATER POEMS, Roberta Spear, AMPLITUDE, Tess Gallagher, where water forgotten my form again, rambling endlessly in this pissing christian vision, Tron for the babies and bacchanals leaping before programs, organizations like St Marks, the most influential interface design and human gesture, the pretensions of proximity in small presses and magazines, and so on, success, web pages, and the actual distances constructed by them, and some resulting poetry (most of COMES TOGETHER WITH OTHER WATER, Raymond Carver, and mystery and detective novels by Sue Grafton, Elmore Leonard, Marcia Muller, and Robert People) interested in similar ideas about/works of poetry and poetics in poetry. re: SPRING AND ALL thus depends not as much on intrinsic abilities and gifts (since aesthetic value is social not VAN GULIK: THE "JUDGE DEE" SERIES), short stories. The discussions were this past summer and autumn through subsubpoetics (an e-mail list started by Jordan Davis) as to political or philosophical ideas... Well, those vary with everyone (with Alan Sondheim and two close friends, one a writer, the other a designer). Some material from these dialogues can be found at another web site: the weather screen, using dem types of woids to muscle support. Is a natural, creation, as on the extent of the poet's cultural capital--that is, his or her sense of the State of the None have become our defining motive(s) for talking about poetics, or writing by Anne Beattie and Ethan Canin? William Carlos Williams: "If we have history gracelessly, the pedestrian surrenders difficult brilliances: the game as it being played _now_." It goes without saying, however, that both learned anything as human beings. These past poetry? Nope, no real hook ups with the instinctual sham-o-meter, that any given night gives reason to pay the rent, that reason, lost pump fist over the castrates from behind the gleam, http://gesture.org/text.html. I am interested precisely in the type of relationships that web of armor defecated by choice republic -- poets and critics have, obviously, a certain self-interest in disinterestedness--that is, a stake: arts/music scene in Atlanta, although some of us know people who pages build between people. I have observed that this internet aesthetic, in a _belief_ concerning the absolute or autonomous aesthetic value of it, are doing things around town. (Hell, my few generations? It's that differences make life interesting!) Cyberpoetry! (These thoughts fancy across the water of talk, the vandal in work per se.) As for the term "conflict of values" which Stephen asked about last week, it would implicate, of only connection with the music scene here, is (I should be as diverse as our ecclectic tastes) these days we know, this relater, is a duplicitous one (getting back to the original definition of art) -- got some musician friends who have toured with/partied, of course, various investments, it is possible to make re such issues as the nature of subjectivity (& its representation in poetry), the objective character of language and its relationship to the world of things? The connection- career blemishes the tubeways suspiciously, courageously, morphs the museums where the more, about the esoteric rituals of a Yao shaman than with bands like the Black Crowes, but I discourse fairly -- sucks, sucks, sucks discordant channels. ____ With texts by Jacques Debrot, Patrick Herron, Rebecca Weldon Sithiwong, Dana Lustig, etc. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 22:44:02 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Prageeta Sharma Subject: Book Party for Prageeta Sharma MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BOOK PARTY !!!!! on FEB. 3rd 2000 from 6:30-8:30 at Ethan Cohen Fine Arts Gallery at 37 Walker Street NYC #212-625-1250 for the release of BLISS TO FILL by Prageeta Sharma, music, food, fun and a few poems. Take the A,C,E or N,R, to CANAL STREET walk one block to Walker. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 15:19:57 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jesse glass Subject: Winner of the Abiko Quarterly 1999 Poetry Prize MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Announcing the Winner of the $1,000.00 A.Q. Poetry Award George Kalamaras of Fort Wayne, Indiana, won the first prize award of $1,000.00 in the annual Abiko Quarterly Poetry Contest for his two prose poems "Oguma Hideo and the Issue of Blood" and "The Question of Yoshioka Minoru's Diarrhea". Second Prize: Eileen Malone (Coleman, CA.) for "Pond". Third Prize: James Fairhill ( Chicago, IL.) for "Cranes". Fourth Prize: Danetta Loretta Saft (Tokyo) for "Tsunami". Honorable Mentions went to Prasanna K. Ganesh, Devorah Namm, Charles Fishman, Robin Metz, and Terri Shaffler Yamada. Judge: Jesse Glass More information about the Abiko Quarterly international poetry contest, as well as its fiction and essay contests may be obtained by writing to Tatsuo Hamada/ ALP office/ Namiki 8-1-7, Abiko-shi/Chiba-ken 270-1165, Japan. Please include SAE and 2 IRC for reply. About Jesse Glass. How to order his books. http://www.letterwriter.net/html/jesse-glass.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 22:48:24 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: Titles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Though I fear this will open a can of worms, or at best start a new thread, I'll respond anyway. I don't intend to sound flippant toward Gerald, but I do have a very different point of view on the subject, which I'll share. Speaking from my own work, I try not to write poems which _have_ one central image (& as a reader, I generally find such poems boring, though as, I think, a good reader of adequate education, I have learned to respect some work of that sort). To me a title is a starting point for the reader, & I do try to make it that, though I'm not adverse to throwing (& again, as a reader, being thrown) a curve ball. A curve ball every once in a while keeps things interesting. I usually get the title after the poem is written, though not always. & I've always liked poems without titles (which everyone else has always told me is something that "shouldn't" be done). What's that old quote, by one of the New York School poets, that titles can be like little poems that lead into the big poem. Was it Berrigan who said that? Maybe someone can provide that quote to the List & attribute it. Mark DuCharme ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 23:47:37 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: Power poetix Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Though I often find Jacques' posts intelligent, I have to agree with much of what Mark Prejsnar said. If one really writes in order to accumulate cultural capital, why then does one write-- anyone, that is, other than [fill in the name of a poet you think has accumulated significant cultural capital]? Yes, I know a lot of people are concerned about a lot of the issues Jacques raises, in terms of THEIR immediate reputations. My question then is: is that all there is? Apparently Jacques thinks so-- & this is where the comparison to Bloom _is_ appropriate, in the sense of a reduction of cultural activity to the most narrow & utilitarian terms. Here, I also disagree with Tom Orange's suggestion that the issue may be one of poets' naivite. It seems to me remarkably easy to claim that poets are naive in this context, when naive is ultimately defined as not buying into Jacques' particular take on literary politics. All of which (as with all of the posts I'm responding to) ultimately eludes the question of why write poetry. Is it for food pellets-- or some type of theoretical category that, as with Jacques' "cultural capital," can ultimately be translated as the equivalent of food pellets. Maybe, for some of my "colleagues" on this list, that is the case. But I feel sorry for you if that's so. For most poets though, including the so-called "fathers" (to continue Prejsnar's use of Bloom's use of the oedipal model) & those who've garnered Debrot's "cultural capital," I think there really is some other reason. Remember, even the major figures think that they're horribly neglected-- as they are, in terms of the "mainstream" of society. No, I think that we write poetry because we love doing it. & I think writing poetry is perhaps the preeminent "nonproductive" activity (in the economic terms from which Jacques borrows). As such, I think it functions of a critique of the values of capitalism, as well as of the utilitarian values-- socialist or not-- which Jacques seems to articulate. All of which may not entirely explain this strange activity in which all of us on this List have some stake; however it is a more satisfying explanation (to me at least) than some kind of wierd drive to be King of the Cultural Molehill. Mark DuCharme ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 08:42:24 +0000 Reply-To: R I Caddel Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R I Caddel Subject: Re-launch of Basil Bunting Website Comments: To: british n irish poets , pound list , poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The Basil Bunting Poetry Centre Website has now been fully revised and redesigned, incorporating an up-to-date bibliography, poems, pictures, and information on celebrations planned for his Centenary this year. It's at: http://www.dur.ac.uk/~dul0www1/index.html Please add it to your links and/or favourites. ___________________________________________________________ Richard Caddel Durham University Library, Stockton Rd., Durham DH1 3LY, UK E-mail: R.I.Caddel@durham.ac.uk Phone: +44 (0)191 374 3044 Fax: +44 (0)191 374 7481 WWW: http://www.dur.ac.uk/~dul0ric "Words! Pens are too light. Take a chisel to write." - Basil Bunting ___________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 08:58:11 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R I Caddel Subject: Basil Bunting Centenary Lecture Comments: To: british n irish poets , pound list , poetics , ng-english-staff@durham.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The Basil Bunting Poetry Centre and St. Aidans College Durham present: The Basil Bunting Centenary Lecture by Professor Peter Makin Kansai University, Japan "Silent, Accurate Lips": Meaning and Precision in Bunting's Work A Public Lecture in the Lindisfarne Centre, St. Aidan's College, Durham University, at 6.30pm on Wednesday March 1st, 2000. All are welcome. Bunting described scholarly criticism as "painful... necessary policework" - but made an exception for Peter Makin's thorough and lucid work on Ezra Pound. Makin's writing on Bunting is certainly amongst the best in the steadily growing field, and includes _Bunting: The Shaping of his Verse_ (Clarendon Press 1992) and his recent edition of Bunting's lectures _Basil Bunting on Poetry_ (Johns Hopkins 1999). Details of further Bunting Centenary Celebrations can be found on the Bunting Centre Website at: http://www.dur.ac.uk/~dul0www1/index.html ___________________________________________________________ Richard Caddel Durham University Library, Stockton Rd., Durham DH1 3LY, UK E-mail: R.I.Caddel@durham.ac.uk Phone: +44 (0)191 374 3044 Fax: +44 (0)191 374 7481 WWW: http://www.dur.ac.uk/~dul0ric "Words! Pens are too light. Take a chisel to write." - Basil Bunting ___________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 06:46:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: (Fwd) No Subject Comments: cc: jbradley@niu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Chris: I sent one of these in a couple weeks ago and it never appeared. Obviously a worthy and urgent cause. ------- Forwarded message follows ------- From: WrightCD@aol.com Date sent: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 14:54:34 EST Subject: No Subject To: ForrestGan@aol.com, BestPoet@aol.com, stephen.burt@yale.edu, creeley@acsu.buffalo.edu, torydent@earthlink.net, mattison@huskynet.com, PeterGizzi@macmail.ucsc.edu, Peter_Gizzi@macmail.ucsc.edu, kjohnson@highland.cc.il.us, Annotate@aol.com, hlazer@bama.ua.edu, essentia@rockbridge.net, rosemarie1@msn.com, pula51@hotmail.c, Volkmeier@aol.com, rwolff@angel.net, zurawski@astro.temple.edu Dear Friends: In NPR Morning Edition, Nina Totenberg said that if the Supreme Court supports Congress, it is in effect the end of NEA (the National Endowment for the Arts). This situation creates great concerns about Congressional funding for creative arts in America, since NEA provides major support for NPR (National Public Radio), PBS (Public Broadcasting System), and numerous other creative and performing arts. If NEA is lost or weakened, our lives will be similarly diminished. In spite of the efforts of each station to reduce spending costs and streamline their services, some government officials believe that the funding currently going to these programs is too large a portion of funding for something which is seen as not worthwhile. Currently, taxes from the general public for PBS equal $1.12 per person per year, and the National Endowment for the Arts equals $.64 a year. A January 1995 CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll indicated that 76% of Americans wish to keep funding for PBS, third only to national defense and law enforcement as the most valuable programs for federal funding. Each year, the Senate and House Appropriations committees each have 13 subcommittees with jurisdiction over many programs and agencies.Each subcommittee passes its own appropriation bill. The goal each year is to have each bill signed by the beginning of the fiscal year, which is October 1. The only way that our representatives can be aware of the base of support for PBS and funding for these types of programs is by our making our voices heard. Please add your name to this list and forward it to friends whom you believe to be in favor of what this stands for. The full list will be forwarded to the President of the United States, the Vice President, and the Speaker of the House, whose office has in the past been the instigator of the action to cut funding to these worthwhile programs. This petition is being passed around the Internet. Please add your name to it so that funding can be maintained for the NEA, NPR, and PBS. . Please keep the petition rolling. Do not reply to me. . Sign your name and locale to the list and forward it to others to sign. . If you prefer not to sign, please send the list to the email address given below. This is being forwarded to numerous people at once to add their names to the petition. It won't matter if many people receive the same list, as the names are being managed. This is for anyone who thinks NPR and PBS deserve $1.12/year of their taxes. If you sign, please forward the list to others. If not, please don't kill it. ... If you happen to be the 150th, 200th, 250th, etc., signer of this petition, please forward a copy to: wein2688@blue.univnorthco.edu. This way we can keep track of the lists and organize them. Forward this to everyone you know, and help us to keep these programs alive. Thank you. .NOTE: It is preferable that you SELECT the entirety of this letter and then COPY it into a NEW outgoing message, rather than simply forwarding it. In your new outgoing message, add your name to the bottom of the list, then send it on. Or, if the option is available, do a SEND AGAIN. 1. David Liberman, Sylva, NC 2. Marie Harrison, Sylva, NC 3. Randi Beckmann, Ithaca, NY 4. Bill Wertheim, Mt. Vernon, NY 5. Marlene Wertheim, Mt. Vernon, NY 6. George Wertheim, San Francisco, CA. 7. Linda Wertheim, San Francisco, CA 8. Linda R. Semi, Walnut Creek, CA 9. Margaret C. Forness, Pleasant Hill, CA 10. Phillip D. Rubenstein, Syracuse, NY 11. Timothy J. Connell, Madison, WI 12. Stacia E. Jesner, Mt. Kisco, NY 13. Jenna Schnuer, NYC, NY 14. Julia Kohn, NY, NY 15. Maria Sarro, NY, NY 16. Evan Schwartz, Cliffside Park, NJ 17. Pat Waters, Lakewood, CO 19. Karen Tilton, Maquoketa, IA 20. Kent Crawford 21. Terry Dillon 22. Gene Bechen, Coralville, IA 23. Neal Schnoor, Kearney, NE 24. Sam Zitek, Crete, NE 25. Jay Kloecker 26. Marilyn Godby, Papillion, NE 27. Lucina Johnson 28. Alfred Tom Johnson 29. Tyler Corey Johnson 30. A. Corey Limbach 31. Paula Smith, Berkeley, CA 32. Pat Quinn, Alameda, CA 33. Andrea Quinn, Alameda, CA 34. Jerry Hackett, Berkeley, CA 35. Richard Hackett, NY 36. Jeffrey Green, CA 37. Phil Chernin, CA 38. Sandra S. Bauer, CA 39. Gregory LeVasseur, San Francisco, CA 40. Keiko LeVasseur, San Francisco, CA 41. Diego Gonzalez, San Francisco, CA 42. David D Berkowitz, Washington, DC 43. Peter Glass, Bellevue, WA 44. Mary Frances Rimpini, Kent, WA 45. Mary Frances Stevens, Kirkland, WA 46. Linda Grebmeier, Benicia, CA 47. Lee Altman, Benicia, CA 48. Jeffrey Gray, South Orange, NJ 49 Ed Jones, Orange, NJ >>> > 50. Daniel P. Jones, Glenside, PA >>> > 51. Jenifer Goetz, State College, PA >>> > 52. Arnold R. Post, Carrboro, NC >>> > 54. Robert A. Post, Cape May, NJ >>> > 55. Evelyn M. Post, Cape May, NJ >>> > 56. Jay A. Sklaroff, Philadelphia, PA >>> > 57. Harry M. Sklaroff, Washington, DC >>> > 58. Susan E. Salmons, Washington, DC >>> > 59. Dori Langevin, Silver Spring, MD >>> > 60. Ted Langevin, Silver Spring, MD >>> > 61. David Mercier, Easton, MD >>> > 62. Phoebe Harding, Baltimore, MD >>> > 63. Molly Rath, Baltimore, MD >>> > 64. Terry O'Hara, Baltimore, MD >>> > 65. Nina Wendt, Baltimore, MD >>> > 66. Marilyn Clark, Baltimore, MD >>> > 67. Cathy McKinney, Boone, NC >>> > 68. Harold McKinney, Boone, NC >>> > 69. Milena Garcia, Columbia, MD >>> > 70. Timothy Morrison, Devore, CA >>> > 71. Virginia S. Kallay Cleveland, OH >>> > 72. Nancy Cleaveland, Atlanta, GA >>> > 73. Cindy Lutenbacher, Decatur, GA >>> > 74. Kaye Norton, Columbus, OH >>> > 75. Elaine Haidt, Chapel Hill, NC >>> > 76. Harold Haidt, Chapel Hill, NC >>> > 76. Frank Church, Chapel Hill, NC >>> > 77. Astrid R. Jarzembowski, Garrison, NY >>> > 78. David Church, Garrison, NY >>> > 79. Cathy Dillon, Old Greenwich, CT >>> > 80. Michelle Woodward, Town of Mt. Pleasant, NY >>> > 81. Catherine L. Josset, Brewster, NY >>> > 82. Bill Philbrick, Crompond, NY >>> > 83. Emile Menasch, Mahopac, NY >>> > 84. Amy Menasch, Mahopac, NY >>> > 85. Bette-Jane Crigger, Peekskill, NY >>> > 86. Miriam Piven Cotler >>> > 87. Cyndi Menegaz, Los Angeles, CA >>> > 88. Linda Zale, Los Angeles, CA >>> > 89. Phillip Kudelka, Woodland Hills California >>> > 90. Karl Schoenbaum, Woodland Hills California >>> > 91. Jennifer Bramscher, Malibu, CA >>> > 92. Mindy Markman, Los Angeles, CA >>> > 93. Bekki Misiorowski, Los Angeles, CA >>> > 94. Robert A. Misiorowski, Los Angeles, CA >>> > 95. Elise B. Misiorowski, Los Angeles, CA >>> > 96. Andrea McShane, Los Angeles, CA >>> > 97. Judith Shechter >>> > 98. Gerald Shechter, Kansas City, Missouri >>> > 99. Joyce Williams, Kansas City, MO >>> > 100. Brad Harris, Kansas City, MO >>> > 101. Ken Krusi, Silverdale, WA. >>> > 102. Rus Shuler, Fort Mill, SC >>> > 103. Stacy Hammond, Fort Mill, SC >>> > 104. Sandy Whitaker, Charlotte, NC >>> > 105. Neely Dodge, NY, NY >>> > 106. E Schlosberg Boston, MA >>> > 107. K. Caswell, Ivoryton, CT >>> > 108. Jerome Russo, Pennington, NY >>> > 109. Sarah Caguiat Borthwick, Brooklyn, NY >>> > 110. Carlos J. Caguiat, Saranac Lake, NY >>> > 111. Rick Dennis, Saranac Lake,NY >>> > 112. Claire M. Stahler, Lake Placid, NY >>> > 113. Carolyn Curwen, Lowell, MA >>> > 114. Alison E. Curwen, Ojai, CA >>> > 115. William A. Curwen, Ojai, CA >>> > 116. Rick Swan, Ojai, CA >>> > 117. Sonia Nordenson, Ojai, CA >>> > 118. Dale Hanson, Ojai, CA >>> > 119. Karen McAuley, New York, NY >>> > 120. James Klausen, New York, NY >>> > 121. Joe Elwood >>> > 122. Mary Elwood >>> > 123. Sean Elwood >>> > 124. Henry Membreno, Houston, TX >>> > 125. Tim Gonzalez, Houston, TX >>> > 126. Coy Hunger, Houston, TX >>> > 127. John Gonzalez, Houston, Tx >>> > 128. Denise Gonzalez, Houston, TX >>> > 129. Amanda DeAnda, Houston, TX >>> > 130. Rachel Nicholson, Houston, TX >>> > 132. Josh Nicholson, Houston, TX >>> > 133. Dan Hunger, Houston, TX >>> > 134. Terry Lynn, Houston, TX >>> > 135. Kristina Zito, New York, NY >>> > 136. Heather Parker, New York, NY >>> > 137. Susan Orsato, Malden, MA >>> > 138. Barbara G. Beckmann, Montclair, NJ >>> > 139. Frances O. Beckmann, Brewster, MA >>> > 140. Karen C. Lombardi, Bloomfield, NJ >>> > 141. Beverly Rosen, East Hanover, NJ >>> > 142. Paula Jacobson, Rockville, MD >>> > 143 Sharon Draisin, Huntington, NY >>> > 144. Margaret Weinstein, Chapel Hill, NC >>> > 145. Sidney Weinstein, Chapel Hill, NC >>> > 146 Judy Nan Hacohen, Rowayton, CT >>> > 147 N. H. Hacohen, Rowayton, CT >>> > 148 Annah Abrams Cambridge, MA > > > 149.Liza Donlon, Brookline, MA >>> > 150. Molly Henty, Portland, OR >>> > 151. Lesley Keith, Portland, OR >>> > 152 Philip Engle, Portland, OR >>> > 153. Jon Taguchi, Portland, OR >>> > 154. Susan Fowler McNally, Los Angeles, CA >>> > 155. Faith Backus, Manhattan Beach, CA >>> > 156. Jennifer Murray, Arlington, MA >>> > 157. Tanya K. Bhatt, Boston, MA 158. Vicki Ariyasu, Los Angeles, CA 159. Dan Schwartz, Arlington, MA 160. Lester Schwartz 161. Janice Towers 162. Robert Sherman 163. Judith Sherman 164. Alice Welch, Concord, MA 165. Richard Welch, Concord, MA 166. Cynthia Brown, St. Paul, MN 167. Michele Disney, Sacramento, CA 168. Victoria Newman, Lexington , Ma. 169. John Newman, Lexington, Ma. 170. Sandra Swan Gensemer, Charlestown, Ma 171. paul marquis, waterown, ma 172. naomi evelan, watertown,ma 173. Pat Kauffman-Lang, Watertown, MA 174. Edwin F. Lang, Watertown,MA 175. Becca Kauffman, Cambridge, MA 176. Rhyland Gillepsie, Boston, MA 177. Emily Williams, Bethesda, MD 178. Kate Lockard, Bethesda, MD >> 179. Sarah Feldman, Chevy Chase, MD 180. Christine Shluger, Chevy Chase maryland 181. Ephim Shluger, Chevy Chase, maryland 182. Sophie Shluger, Chevy Chase, MD 183. Dale Franzen,Topanga, CA. 184. Stephen Collins, Los Angeles, CA 185. Jane Lanier, Los Angeles, CA 186. John Rubinstein, Los Angeles, CA 187. Peter Rubinstein, Los Angeles, CA 188. Jacob Rubinstein, Los Angeles, CA 189. Jessica Rubinstein, Los Angeles, CA 190. Michael Weston, Los Angeles, CA 191. Kim Berner, Los Angeles, CA 192. Allen Won 193. Barrie Hall 194. George Caldwell 195. C.D. Wright, Rhode Island ------- End of forwarded message ------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 07:00:03 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Ellis Subject: Re: Up front and out of place Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed David, okay, but why tell me this to the side? Why not put it up on the List? Ethical mistakes are common, and, I think, sometimes useful, especially with respect to the formally "cozy" sense I get from the List that all its participants are good boys and girls. Whatever "offense" I "committed" remains in the public domain, and can be commented on, as you've done. While I respect your opinion - or, rather the fact that you have one - I prefer not to regard it as the form of "behaviorsim" that it does in fact seem, ie., with the hope of "preventing" future offenses against the proprietary aspects of The Private. I should make clear the fact that Jacques' post was not originally a back-channel, but was sent over a weekend during wch it would not have appeared on the List, imn order that I might see it without that attending time lag. I saw later, in Jacques' post to Anselm, that he (Jacques) had retracted from the List his post in response to me. Nevertheless, (despite whatever "ethical" propriety) the post in question was still "material" that had, to me, especial interest by way of comparison to what Jacques said in his post to Anselm. Ie., there was between the two a change and development of thought wch might usefully be considered. So why ask permission? I mean, who "owns" thought, or its expression? Are we to presume that such are by their nature immediately under the likes of copyright? Since language is the determining aspect of the public domain, it seems to me that anything said or written is equally so, despite it may provide cause for offense on the part of those so quoted. But so what? That sort of offense can be generative as well as merely offensive. In fact, without some sense of offense, society (including the society of this List) becomes increasingly stifled and uniform, a neo-conservative poetics version of The Stepford Wives in wch reproduction for its own sake is the be-all and end-all of Being. Are we to presume that respect for one's private authority take the place of that authority's expression in the public domain of language? And if we hope to ever expand that domain, how can this be accomplished when the private authority that determines it is permitted to overwhelm its possibilities by "owning" them without at the same time being responsible to "what is said" outside of the fact of who said it first? That, I think, is where my presumption of what you take to be "ethical" begins to take part in the continuation of a lie - asking permission to use publicly what already is, by the fact of its expression, in the public domain. My own sense of ethics in this is, when you ask permission, you get denial. That's the set-up. Like an over-inflation of personhood - against wch I don't mind having acted a little seditiously. As the poet Karen Driscoll said, I've learned a few things: honey is a discharge we're in a pile of shit What's there to dread? Dig up! Otherwise, sleep with significance * S E >From: David Kellogg >To: Stephen Ellis >Subject: Re: Up front and out of place >Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 11:55:07 -0500 (EST) > > >Stephen, > >If, as I am given to understand, you did not get Debrot's permission to >redistribute this post to another list, then you have committed a serious >fucking ethical mistake. What were you thinking? > >Cheers, >David > >On Fri, 28 Jan 2000, Stephen Ellis wrote: > > > Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 05:59:18 PST > > From: Stephen Ellis > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: Up front and out of place > > > > >The following comprises two posts written by Jacques Debrot, the first >to > > >Anselm Berrigan, wch appeared on the List, and the second to me – the >post > > >that Jacques mentions in his post to Anselm as having been >“successfully > > >retracted” but which I have from him as a back channel. Since in >Jacques’ > > >view this latter is “riddled with lazy errors”, and since in a brief >post > > >to > > >subsubpoetics (subsubpoetics@listbot.com), Jacques noted that “the only > > >reason to post to [the Buffalo List is] the interesting back-channel > > >discussions the various threads somehow generate”, I thought it might >be > > >useful to disregard Jacques’ retraction of the second post here for the > > >sake > > >of comparison, ie., to give opportunity for those interested to locate >ways > > >in wch the thinking in his post to me may in fact BE fallible (if at >all) > > >in > > >relation to the related post to Anselm, wch Jacques DID post. If the >UB > > >list archive is indeed, as Jacques suggests, “pretty dull to read” it >may > > >be > > >enlivened by getting more bc activity up front; for all the “lazy >errors” > > >that in fact may be part of private communication, it is exactly these >that > > >might prove to be most generative to the public aspect of the list. In > > >addition, it might also be interesting for UB participants to note the > > >tenor > > >over on “the other list”, and to make pertinent comment – the >hybridization > > >of a little “cross-town traffic” after all, wouldn’t hurt what Jacques >and > > >others have suggested is sometimes a pretty tired strain that passes > > >uneasily for “discussion” here. > > >- S E > > > > > > > > > >____________________________________________________________________________ > > >______________________ > > > > > > > > >Hi Anselm, > > > > > >(I believe I have successfully retracted a post (riddled w/ lazy >errors) on > > >this same subject written last Fri. in response to Stephen Ellis-- so, > > >hopefully, I am not repeating myself here.) > > > > > >First, let me try to say what is at stake when I talk about success in > > >relation to experimental poetry. Obviously, I am not talking about > > >economic > > >capital, even though this is in fact obtainable by a very small >minority of > > >experimentalist poets in the form of grants (in the hundreds of >thousands > > >of > > >dollars) or in the sale of personal papers and correspondance (an >unusual > > >example would be, say, Ginsberg's selling his papers to Columbia for a > > >million dollars). But the fact that anyone reading this post would >feel at > > >all uncomfortable with the idea of there being any possible financial > > >renumeration for experimental writing would only demonstrate the >extent to > > >which the game of poetry is one of *loser wins*. It will always be an > > >*oppositional* game inasmuch as it functions by the *inversion* of the > > >principles organizing the business economy--in that cultural production > > >exists fundamentally as (when it is as severely restricted as exp >poetry > > >is) > > >a production for producers. Which, however, is not to say that the >world > > >of > > >alternative poetry and the world of bussiness are not homologous. The > > >alternative poetry world, whatever else it is, is a hierarchical social > > >space in which agents--poets-- employ various strategies--aesthetic > > >practices—in order to acquire symbolic capital--prestige--and power (of >a > > >certain kind). > > >Indeed, the power resulting from the acquisition of symbolic capital is >the > > >very thing that legitimizes the authority of critical interpretations >and > > >aesthetic judgments generally (and their reproduction through the >efficacy > > >of institutional cultural authority in the form of the exp writing and > > >literature programs, organizations like St Marks, the most influential > > >small > > >presses and magazines, and so on). Success in poetry thus depends not >as > > >much on intrinsic abilities and gifts (since aesthetic value is a >social, > > >not a natural, creation) as on the extent of the poet's cultural > > >capital—that is, his or her sense of the state of the game as it being > > >played *now*. It > > >goes without saying, however, that both poets and critics have, >obviously, > > >a > > >certain self-interest in disinterestedness--that is, a stake in a >*belief* > > >concerning the absolute or autonomous aesthetic value of the work per >se. > > > > > >As for the term "conflict of values" which Stephen asked about last >week, > > >it > > >would implicate, of course, the various investments it is possible to >make > > >re such issues as the nature of subjectivity (& its representation in > > >poetry), the objective character of language and its relationship to >the > > >world of things, the connection of art to politics (overt? covert? > > >transcendental?), etc. But it is my impression that these conflicts no > > >longer really *signify* in the way they used to. Open almost any > > >alternative magazine and you will find a bizarre mix of contradictory > > >styles > > >(each of which is subtended by very different values). The editorial > > >stance > > >of these magazines is, in almost all cases, impossible to determine. & > > >when--very rarely-- the editor > > >does (bravely) state her or his position, it is not unusual to find >her/him > > >dissing the very kind of poetry he/she has been publishing all along, >or > > >that the book reviews (if the magazine carries them) are extolling. >But > > >this isn't bad faith, so much as the implicit recognition that a gold > > >standard for aesthetic judgement and pleasure no longer exists. As a > > >result, alternative poetry simply proliferates haphazardly in a state >of > > >(almost) pure circulation (with the exception that as Warhol realized, >fame > > >(contingent, stupid, indifferent) is the single most important point of > > >reference or criteria for aesthetic (or other) judgements). It is >thus > > >difficult to see how poetry can serve as an emancipatory or moralistic >–or > > >politically oppositional--discourse. Why, as Stephen again asked, are >we > > >"ideologically blind" to this? Because as Baudrillard puts it, "when > > >things, signs , or actions are freed from their respective ideas, > > >concepts, > > >values, points of reference, origins, and aims, they embark upon an >endless > > >process of self-reproduction. Yet things continue to function long >after > > >the > > >ideas have disappeared, and they do so in total indifference to their >own > > >content. The paradoxical fact is that they function even better under >these > > >circumstances." > > > > > >Ted Berrigan is an exemplary case. I am not at all surprised that, >like > > >Bernstein, he also compared poetry to a small business. In fact, >Padgett, > > >in _TED_, if I remember it correctly, reveals him as being, for >example, > > >very much concerned with his inclusion in the Norton Anthology. But > > >yes--I'd say of course that, without any doubt, Ted Berrigan was a >great > > >success (measured in terms of symbolic capital). If his books went out >of > > >print, it is because these were carried by commercial publishers > > >(right?)--so he paid a certain price in moving from an economy of > > >restricted production to one of a slightly larger scale (but loser >wins!). > > >Also, of course, he possessed an > > >extraordinary degree of cultural capital insamuch as he was at the >center > > >of > > >various avant-garde coteries--Warhol's Factory, the NY School, etc.--in > > >which a sense of the values at stake was somewhat arcane (circulating, >as > > >it > > >did,often in socially closed or private conditions). > > > > > >--jacques > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > >Hi, > > >As it will probably be Mon before this appears on the Buff List, I >thought > > >I > > >would send my response to your post to you before then. As these >things > > >are > > >written on the fly your remarks did seem a little unfair, but I did try > > >here > > >to be more specific--but I think this is about as much as I can affrod >to > > >elaborate in any one post--so, perhaps more in the future? > > > > > >--j > > > > > > > > >Stephen, > > > > > >When you write "What form of “cultural capital” do you think to gain – > > >or more to the point, what is the objectively get-able “thing” one >strives > > >for in the act of writing?" instead of getting "more" to the point, >you > > >actually ask 2 different things. Let me try to answer them--first in a > > >general sense & then more confessionally, or subjectively, as you seem >to > > >want me to do. Also, I'll try to respond (implicitly throughout) to >your > > >other pertinent question re my use of generic terms & the specificity >of > > >what I mean by the term “conflict of values.” > > > > > >First, I assume I'm being asked what are the forms of cultural capital > > >available, not only to me, but to poets--or rather, to experimentalist > > >poets--generally? As I understand it, there are something like 800 > > >subscribers to the Buffalo Listserve--of which the overwhelming >majority > > >are > > >most likely poets--anyone, let's say, who has ever written a poem w/ >the > > >idea of publishing it. Let's say, too, that the large majority of >these > > >poets are experimentalist (for argument's sake, any poet writing out of >the > > >New American, Language, European avant-gardist, etc. traditions--you >get my > > >idea I hope). And now this number represents approximately what >percentage > > >of all experimentalist poets? 1/2? 1/3? 1/10? Obviously, I don't >know; > > >you probably have just as good an idea as I do, if not better. >Whatever > > >the > > >number though, the most conspicuous forms of cultural capital would be > > >availabe to only a very small percentage. However, a poet of this >status > > >might, for example, sell her/his private papers and manuscripts to a > > >library--one very tangible form of capital. Ginsbeg, after all, >managed to > > >sell his papers to Columbia for a million dollars. Not a lot for, say, >an > > >investment banker, of course--especially if one considers that it > > >represents > > >a dollar value accrued over a lifetime --but a windfall, nonetheless, >for a > > >middle class poet. Ashbery, I'm certain, could have received >approximately > > >as much from Harvard. And the Language Poets? The 1G Language Poets >are > > >now about the age Ashbery was when he first began to receive serious > > >critical attention. Their stock, meanwhile, has steadily risen in the > > >academy. One could easily imagine a few--like Bernstein--being able to > > >sell > > >their papers for quite a lot of money in, say, 10 years--not for a >million > > >dollars, but--well, I'll let you speculate. Added to this, a MacArthur > > >grant, for some, is certainly more likely than not, and so on, and so >on. > > >Not to say, > > >again, that the money I am talking about is extravagant, or that anyone > > >would shape a career w/ this being some ultimate goal--though at some > > >point, > > >age 50 perhaps, it must begin to seem, if only in the back of the minds >of > > >some very few, seductively attainable. > > > > > >To a slightly larger circle of experimentalist poets, there are forms >of > > >cultural capital for which the common denominator is prestige. Being >able > > >to publish whatever manuscripts one desires to publish (even if not by > > >commercial publishers), having one's poems in numerous anthologies, >seeing > > >your work mentioned in dissertations, reviews, and scholarly articles, > > >having a (relatively) large readership for the books that result from >this > > >publicity, achieving financial security through the teaching gigs that >come > > >w/ a certain kind of fame, being in demand for readings, interviews, >and so > > >on--all of this is, perhaps, a pathetic ambition, but that's not the >same > > >thing as denying the reality of its allure. > > > > > >For yet another group of poets--again relatively few--these same > > >satisfactions are intermittently attainable--particularly through > > >institutional alliances with writing programs or university English > > >departments, or slightly less definable sites such as St. Marks, or the > > >most > > >prestigious small presses. (Which is to describe these affiliations >too > > >coldly since they are all lubricated, not only by self-interest, but > > >through > > >personal friendships, etc. Indeed, I don't doubt for a second that it >is > > >some conception of poetry "itself," of ideas and aesthetic enthusiasms, > > >often pursued at considerable personal sacrifice, that constitute-- >just as > > >much as anything I have described--the reality of the poetry world. My > > >point, of course, is that there is no such thing as poetry "itself," >that > > >art is never > > >autonomous, & that the poetry world, whatever else it is, is also a >social > > >space with a system of schemas for certain aesthetic practices which, >in > > >turn, have power (of a certain kind) at stake.) > > > > > >Of course, for the majority of poets, there is no cultural capital to >be > > >obtained from poetry, except in the most meager forms--though, > > >subjectively, > > >individual poets may not *perceive* their irrelevance (here, of course >I am > > >talking strictly in terms of status, w/out making any judgement on the > > >value > > >of the work; nor am I taking into account the tremendous enjoyment & > > >satisfaction that writing poetry can bring or any other of its real > > >emotional or psychic benefits). > > > > > >You'll notice now, certainly, that, though the term "cultural capital" > > >comes > > >from Bourdieu, this post does not have the rigour etc. a more formal, >or > > >theoretical, account would have. If it did, I would extend my remarks >to a > > >consideration of how these forms of cultural capital (in themselves >benign) > > >inevitably introduce unequal power relations among poets and a >concommitant > > >reproduction of certain aesthetic tendencies dominant, for example, in >the > > >writing programs associated w/ exp poetry. This is something that >would > > >require careful research, among other things, to document, but I have >the > > >strong sense that it would be suceptible to this kind of approach. If, > > >Stephen, you are asking me to do that here and now--for you & maybe the >3 > > >others who have gotten this far in my post--you would be being very > > >unreasonable. > > > > > >As for the term "conflict of values," it would implicate, pretty >obviously, > > >the various investments it is possible to make re such issues as the >nature > > >of subjectivity (& its representation in poetry), the objective >character > > >of > > >language and its relationship to the world of things, the connection of >art > > >to politics (overt? covert? transcendental?), and on and on--you don't > > >need > > >me to spell this out for you. But it is my impression that these >conflicts > > >no longer really *signify*. Open almost any alternative magazine and >you > > >will find a bizarre mix of contradictory styles (each of which is >subtended > > >by very different values). The editorial stance of these magazines is, >in > > >almost all cases, impossible to determine. & when--very rarely-- the > > >editor does (bravely) state her or his position, it is not unusual to >find > > >her/him dissing the very kind of poetry he/she has been publishing all > > >along, or that the book reviews (if it carries them) are extoling. But > > >this > > >isn't bad faith, so much as the implicit recognition that a gold >standard > > >for aesthetic judgement and pleasure no longer exists. As a result, > > >alternative poetry > > >simply proliferates haphazardly in a state of (almost) pure >circulation. > > >It > > >is thus difficult to see how poetry can serve as an emancipatory or > > >moralistic --or oppositional--discourse. Why are we "ideologically >blind" > > >to this? Because as Baudrillard puts it, "when things, signs , or >actions > > >are freed from their respective ideas, concepts, values, points of > > >reference, origins, and aims, they embark upon an endless process of > > >self-reproduction. Yet things continue to function long after the ideas > > >have > > >disappeared, and they do so in total indifference to their own content. > > >The > > >paradoxical fact is that they function even better under these > > >circumstances." > > > > > >As Warhol realized, fame (contingent, stupid, indifferent) remains the >only > > >point of reference or criteria for aesthetic (or other) judgements. >And > > >what I am saying is that the forms of cultural capital I have very >briefly > > >sketched, including fame, are the determinants of aesthetic value for > > >contemporary experimental poetry. As for how I feel personally about >this, > > >or what I think is get-able from poetry? I suppose I have >contradictory > > >feelings--the nihilism of extremepositions gives me a rush, but I also > > >deeply regret the implications of my ideas--so at times I side more w/ >a > > >more sober skeptic like Thierry de Duveas as opposed to Baudrillard. > > >Professionally, too, I am both ambitious and indifferent. I've gone >out of > > >my way to begin to correspond with famous poets & then suddenly dropped >all > > >communication on my end--not because of any shifting feelings of mine >about > > >their work, but because of a procrastinating and, whatever-else-it-is, > > >temperment. > > > > > >--jacques > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > > >Cheers, >David >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >David Kellogg Duke University >kellogg@acpub.duke.edu Program in Writing and Rhetoric >(919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 >FAX (919) 660-4372 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 13:00:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lowther, John" Subject: SPEAK magazine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain { p o e t i x } i picked up a magazine yesterday that i'd seen around once or twice before but not really paid any attention to, SPEAK ---- the motive this time was seeing "The Museum of Jurassic Technology" written on the cover and thinking "oh, that again, what the hell is that?" ----- then upon opening it i found this semi lengthy article about one of those olson experience things that they have yearly (?) in gloucester organized by ralph maud ---- and an interview with pauline oliveros another with david byrne ---- harold jaffe talking about subcultural narratives (amusing but not particularly profound) ---- interviews/profiles with/of ellen willis and e. k. sedgwick (interesting) ---- still more to read, but as glossy magazines w/ cigarette ads go this has been an ok read so far the olson article has some funny stuff when the author sets about railing at the poetic establishment, in particular APR and generally making nasty about academics and academia --- altho he starts by saying that olson is mostly known to people in the academy ---- still, maybe a magazine worth browsing now and then... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 12:36:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Kevin K. & Dodie B. live in NYC Feb. 16 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Scout An evening of readings and performances Curated by Eileen Myles Dodie Bellamy Kevin Killian Samuael Topiary Wednesday, February 16, 8 PM Thread Waxing Space 476 Broadway, second floor, between Broome and Grand Streets Admission: $5 Thread Waxing Space is pleased to present our fifth evening of Scout, a seri= es of readings and performances curated by Eileen Myles. Samuael Topiary will screen her film Atalanta, and Kevin Killian and Dodie Bellamy will read. Dodie Bellamy is the author of Feminine Hijinx (Hanuman, 1990), Real: The Letters of Mina Harker and Sam D=EDAllesandro (Talisman House, 1995) as well= as three chapbooks, Answer (Leave Books, 1992), Broken English (Meow, 1996), an= d Hallucinations (Meow, 1997). She teaches creative writing at Mills College a= nd the San Francisco Art Institute. Kevin Killian is a poet, novelist, art writer, critic, and playwright. His books include Bedrooms Have Windows, Shy, Little Men, Arctic Summer and Argento Series. With Lewis Ellingham he has written Poet Be Like God: Jack Spicer and the San Francisco Renaissance (Wesleyan, 1998), the first biograp= hy of the influential American poet. He lives in San Francisco. Samuael Topiary, founder and artistic director of HIP CIRCLE Productions, is an interdisciplinary performing artist who began her career as a playwright and actor. In 1994 she co-founded the multi-disciplinary, queer-identified production company Please Louise Productions, with whom she created large scale performance-video installations. She has toured the United States as a spoken word performer with the Sister Spit Ramblin=ED Road show, and was a two-time AIRspace artist-in-residence at the Jon Sims Center for the Performing Arts. Atalanta is a silent, narrative dance-film =F1 shot= entirely on super 8 film. The film is accompanied by an original sound score by Kathryn Lyle. Eileen Myles is a poet and writer who has read and organized literary events at Thread Waxing Space for the past two years. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 13:19:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: Outlet magazine's Heroines issue Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" a reminder and a prompt, -We are currently reading for Outlet (6): Stars. The deadline is Feb. 15. Details are at http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy/page5.html -Outlet (7) Heroines I am interested in publishing some short (250-500w?) appreciations/histories of (historical) female writers in this issue. Our reading period for this issue won't occur until early next year, but I would be interested in any proposals any of you might want to send my way. *PLEASE NOTE: we don't accept email submissions.* our address is Outlet c/o Double Lucy Books PO Box 9013 Berkeley, CA, 94709, USA ___________________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell Double Lucy Books & Outlet Magazine http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 20:06:59 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maryrose Larkin Subject: titles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Part of the joy of untitledness is the way an untitled poem sort of dips into the space around it. The page being part of the poem itself. Or that somehow the act of reading a title breaks into the immediacy of a poem. If the poem is built to move in and out of the reader (or the air) quickly, a title disturbs that. Maybe it would be better like paintings, where you had a little card with the title next to poem. But titles are also a bridge between the reader and the writer, a place of communion. For me it has to do with process. Even when I make things with titles, I feel that I am somehow writing one long poem. That all my writing (maybe all writing all language) is one poem and that titling somehow subverts this. It is an interesting question. Maryrose Larkin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:15:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Parable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Parable Nikuko was bound to the earth by a red cord. She sang I'm bound to the earth, The earth is my lover, The earth is my lover. Nikuko was bound to the sky by a blue cord. She sang I'm bound to the sky, The sky is my lover, The sky is my lover. Nikuko was bound all over, only her mouth moved. She sang Sky and earth, Earth and sky, I'm very safe, I'm very safe. The cords said, look, we're writing worlds. They sang Yin and yang we're binding, Yang and yin we're binding. Nikuko was bound all over, only her mouth moved. __________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 10:50:57 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Nielsen, Aldon" Subject: Fwd: INFO: baraka and blue ark to perform (newark) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Rare chance to hear Baraka in one of his better musical settings -- >From: KALAMU@aol.com >Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:14:52 EST >Subject: INFO: baraka and blue ark to perform (newark) >To: KALAMU@aol.com >X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Mac sub 189 > >BLUE ARK HAS BEEN CONFIRMED TO PERFORM WITH AMIRI BARAKA on NJIT CAMPUS >>following Amiri Baraka's address to NJIT student/faculty body & general >>public. >>When: Thursday, February 10 at 6:30pm >>Where:Weston Lecture Hall on MLK Blvd & Warren St. 1st floor >>Sponsored by: Architecture Student Union, Newark Review and NOMAS >>For more info: Vivaohio@hotmail.com , 973 372-7130 Matthew Smith >> >>BLUE ARK: THE WORD SHIP >>featuring AMINA & AMIRI BARAKA >>w/ Rahman Herbie Morgan, Tenor; Dwight West, Vocal, Wilber Morris, Bass; DD >>Jackson, piano; Pheeroan Aklaff, drums. Blue Ark is one of thebest known >>Word-Music ensembles. Amina & Amiri Baraka are internationally known poets, >>and among the best known in the word music genre (Real Song, Enja 94; AB is >>on REUNION w/ NYART QUINTET release Feb 00 >>and recently on CDs with David Murray (Fo Deuk), Hugh Ragin (An Afternoon >>In Harlem). Dwight West is a down and going tenor voice in the tradition of >>Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder now doing Duke Ellington's wonderful ouerve. >>Wilber Morris has played with the best known new music groups extant, >>including David Murray, Dennis Charles, Sunnay Murray, Cecil Taylor, &c. >>D.D. Jackson's wonderful new album is SO FAR (RCA). He is a leader of the >>new wave of ticklers. Pheeroan Aklaff is the acknowledged heavyweight of >>the younger drummers. He has played with Oliver Lake, David Murray, Cecil >>Taylor, Muhal Abrams, &c. >> Blue Ark has traveled throughout the United States and >>Internationally. >>Most recently at St Lawrence, Weequahic U Mich, City of Newark Series, >>NYU, soon Braown, Cornell, NJIT, King Complex Ohio, >>Recent Works: Funk Lore: Black History Music; Tribute To Duke Ellington; >>The Life Of Willie The Lion Smith; Dr King & The Mountain; up and coming, >>Amiri Baraka's The Knee Cult Surveillance, a wordmusic drama about >>traitorous politicians. Amina Baraka is a reporter for The Peoples World; >>Amiri Baraka's new book is "The Leroi Jones Amiri Baraka Reader" Thunders >>Mouth. "Digging: The Afro American Soul of American Classical Music" >>appears in March 00. >>Amiri Baraka ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 20:16:28 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Magnolia Hall MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; x-mac-creator=4D4F5353; x-mac-type=54455854; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Now that all the hoopla about southern writers has died down, here's one to chew on, from a new book we printed on an old style brown 70's Black Sparrow cover that rubs the dirt right off your fingers instantly! You touch it, you bought it. Discount for members listed below-- Dirt free sample: ------ “On The Delta At Twilight” Delineation along the alluvial bottomland it would suggest something wicked on Black Bayou a tributary worthy of its salt brackish fingers of sullen water bleaching skulls faded natives in withdrawal Some say the sky is falling most of the music is within passed on by hand through the blood that rises from a voodoo sickness long ago do you prefer examples an August full of crocodiles perhaps a drink of two? Accordion music maybe the struggle won’t end well cauldrons of crawfish cold draft beer a Blue Juanita Bar the heart of cotton country frantically rowing on to market that constant zigzag route of drunken men & women comes the Weaver of the Webs lovely lonely stuff constructed from dreamland fractures projective verse far from the Mardi Gras syllables of New Orleans where logic is seldom chosen to juxtapose the practice of configuration/irrational boundaries. Copyright © 2000 Pavement Saw Press Checks payable to: Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 Products are available through the publisher or through: SPD / 1341 Seventh St. / Berkeley, CA 94710 / 510.524.1668 Pavement Saw Press is a not for profit corporation, any donations are greatly appreciated and are considered as charitable tax donations under section 501(c) of the federal tax code. Funded by the Ohio Arts Council: A state agency that supports public programs in the arts. We are proud to publish Errol Miller, one of the finest southern experimental writers the United States has to offer. His unique use of the known to form a new geography resonates with perception in the way Olson urges: “MOVE, INSTANTER, ON ANOTHER!” The movement of the breath through these lines leaves only the real thing longed for. This is his third full length collection. Errol Miller Magnolia Hall 72 pages ISBN 1-886350-51-5 Special to listmembers, $8 including postage and Old style brown 70's Black Sparrow cover that rubs the dirt right off your fingers instantly! Errol Miller's work has appeared in hundreds of literary magazines including American Poetry Review, Caliban, Fence, First Intensity, Pavement Saw, Rattapallax, The Bitter Oleander, The Prose Poem, Visible Language, Xconnect, and many others. Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 18:21:24 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: pete spence Subject: Re: Core Seven Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > >Just a note to draw your attention to a fascinating little magazine >originating in Australia. Core, edited by Cameron Lowe, Paul Howie, and >Ben >Lornie, consistently offers a venue for experimental writing and usually >sports cover (or other) art by Pete Spence. Core 7 the Autumn/Winter issue >offers work by Louis Armand, Charles Bernstein, Cat Concoy, Brian Edwards, >Kevin Gilliam, Paul Hardacre, Rory Harris, Lyn Reeves, Spencer Selby, Jon >West, and myself, among others. Core, P.O. Box 419, Geelong, Vic., 3213. >Australia. Ten (Australian) dollars buys a one year subscription. Jesse >Glass > good to place this little mag on the list jesse, re cover art and art through the mags i think Cornelis Vleeskens also did a fair share over the last few issues, also please don't place it as cover (or other) art most of my work in there is traditional writing or Visual Poetry,,issue 7 was a better issue where they gave me a rest, it gets better each issue, hope they go on with it//pete spence ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 10:46:06 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: wheres the List ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Or is it only I who have been dropped off it ? I guess this is a test message to see if it gets rejected.....David ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 18:20:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: derek beaulieu Subject: coming up from filling Station! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > filling Station magazine is proud to present a big reading and celebration of > our 17th issue and the release of FOUND - a new poetry chapbook for 2000/2001 > > march 3rd 7:30 pm > carpenter's union hall > calgary, alberta > > poetry and music by local artists including > > poetry from: Rajinderpal S. Pal, russ rickey, tmuir, Ian Samuels, Darren > Matthies, Jonathon C. Wilcke, jill hartman, julia williams, Lindsay Tipping, and > many more! > > music from: Dave McGan and many many more! > > stay tuned for more details! > > tickets available at the door > for more information contact: > derek beaulieu > 234-0336 > housepre@telusplanet.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 21:42:56 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: Re: Up front and out of place MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stephen Ellis writes: "That, I think, is where my presumption of what you take to be "ethical" begins to take part in the continuation of a lie - asking permission to use publicly what already is, by the fact of its expression, in the public domain." As if you hadn't *reframed* & thus *changed* what *is*. As if the *context* of communication did not at all effect the *meaning* of what is communicated. As if you had no ulterior *motive* other than responsibility to *what has been said*. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 22:00:16 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: success MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Glad you weren't ble to delete my post! I would love to be able to say I *deliberately* had you looking in the wrong place. But you also write: "Sadly in broad spectrum treatments of art-as-social-phenomenon, the pleasures of reading for readers have to be disregarded." Like you, I don't want to disregard my own subjective response to literature--to do that would be hypocritical, no matter to what extent my tastes are socially determined. But it seems to me that the danger of a corrective is *not* from the point of view of "the pleasures of reading." That's the doxa. But rather than emotive arguments appealling to everyone's--including my own prejudices & self interest--can you *actually & persuasively counter* Bourdieu's attempt to account for the social conditions of art? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 17:38:17 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Subject: Re: Titles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Variable: -- sometimes a form e.g. Song ; Sonnet for Two ; As 4 (a short piece with four "verses"; sometimes a first word or phrase; ) sometimes the first word or phrase that is not thereafter repeated -- the title is the beginning of the poem that way; sometimes a phrase of the kind that appears in the poem -- or should I say that appears in The Rest of the Poem. It's not easy to make thematic titles when you dont have themes. Paintings are funny like that too, do you paint the title in the painting? What is the status of a little card with the title on it on the wall, or a number on the wall relating to a title in a catalogue? Is it part of the "work" or not? I'd like to hear a symphony orchestra stand up & say the title in unison before they play the music. How to substitute speech for the graphic effect of a title in a printed poem? How do people read titles? "This one is called..." followed by the title? or just say the title & pause very significantly? Tony Green ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 00:30:33 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: documentary poems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree - Beverly work represents a continuous document. Though she is extraordinarily well read in a literary sense, I think it's more fair to say that she's constantly "reading" everything (including literature). An inveterate rider of buses - going to and from her teaching job (literacy for adults) in San Francisco, her work can offer quite exacting detail of waiting to transfer to the Filmore 22 bus at the corner of 16th and Valencia circa 1979, as well as "higher" reading of what reads its way back out of that circumstance. (Then not a high comfort zone, I can assure one, "There but for the text..." Cheers, Stephen Vincent In a message dated 2/1/0 4:46:08 PM, kathylou@WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes: << I really enjoy the notion of Dahlen's ongoing _A Reading_ as a documentary project. I think it makes a tremendous amount of sense: Documentary of time (bodily time, calendar time), life (as both reader/writer). Documenting one's reading life is very compelling. Kathy Lou Schultz Bev Dahlen's A Reading as a documentary (that's probably a stretch). > Dave Zauhar >> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 01:01:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brendan Lorber Subject: UP NEXT AT DOUBLE HAPPINESS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Here's the latest from Segue @ Double Happiness February 5 Michael Gottlieb / Liz Fodaski Michael Gottlieb has two new books out: _Gorgeous Plunge_, published by Roof Books and _More Than All_, a collaboration with Ted Greenwald, published by Miles Champion in London. His is also author of _The River Road_ and _New York_ among other books. Elizabeth Fodaski is a former coordinator of this series, and the editor/publisher of Torque. She is the author of _fracas_ (Krupskaya, 1999). February 12 John Yau / Marcella Durand John Yau's most recent books include _My Symptoms_ (1998), _Forbidden Entries_ (1996), and _Berlin Diptychon_ (1995). He has work forthcoming in the Denver Quarterly, American Poetry Review, The World, Seneca Review, Tool, and Verse. A book of essays on art and poetry is forthcoming from the University of Michigan Press. He teaches at the Maryland Institute, College of Art (Baltimore), and lives in New York. Marcella Durand is the author of _City of Ports_ and _Lapsus Linguae_ (Situations Press), the poetry editor for Erato Press in New Orleans, and the program coordinator and web-site editor at the Poetry Project. She has collaborated with artists Richard O'Russa and Karoline Schleh on book-sculptures, broadsides, and prints. This month & the next one are curated by LUNGFULL! Magazine Editor Brendan Lorber. Double Happiness is at 173 Mott Street, corner of Broome in Chinatown. The readings are $4. They start at 4:00pm. It's all very simple. Every Saturday afternoon. Drinks, I believe, are two-for-one, which is somewhat more complex but no less pleasant. If you'd like more information call 212.533.9317 or lungfull@interport.net. Hope to see you there, after our eyes adjust to the darkness of the bar. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 01:07:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brendan Lorber Subject: WARM UP DOWNSTAIRS AT THE ZINC BAR Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Icy stairs? Not at THE ZINC BAR SUNDAY NIGHT READING SERIES. In our >climate controlled subterranean Moroccan terrarium it's never been >cozier than it will be in February. And during this short, demure >month, we're delighted to present four gigantic evenings of poetry. >To celebrate leap year, we've added an additional reader to the eight >person lineup, helping to make this briefest of months linger in your memory. > >Your hosts have done extensive research into extreme cold, travelling >to Sweden & New Hampshire & have returned, if not with futuristic >cold-weather gear & arctic survival techniques, then at least with a >certain gleam in their eyes & some mostly true stories. No other >reading series is hosted by two people so well versed in coping with >rough winters - which means no other series is safer to attend in the >upcoming weeks. > >What does this say about the quality of work though? Why don't we >drop some names on you: > >SUNDAY FEBRUARY 6: KIT ROBINSON & RICH O'RUSSA >SUNDAY FEBRUARY 13: SUSAN LANDERS & MARK WEINSTEIN >SUNDAY FEBRUARY 20: TODD COLBY & JEN ROBINSON >SUNDAY FEBRUARY 27: LES LOPES & JOHN SCHERTZER & JOANNA FUHRMAN > >The ZINC BAR SUNDAY NIGHT READING SERIES comes into existence every >Sunday night at 6:37pm. We ask for a paltry $3, which if you don't >have, is okay with us. But because all the money goes to the poets, we >can't stop them from messing with you after the reading if you hold >out. Bringing a little extra cash is also a good idea because >magazines & books are also there for the getting. > >The Zinc Bar is downstairs at 90 West Houston Street. That's between >Laguardia & Thompson right near a great many subways. > >Your hosts are Brendan Lorber, editor of LUNGFULL!Magazine & >cocoordinator of the Segue Foundation's Double Happiness Reading >Series & Douglas Rothschild, editor at subpress collective & of >Bivouac Magazine. > > >If you need more information: 212.366.2091 or 212.533.9317 or >lungfull@interport.net or just stop by the bar, have a drink & ask >Jean Claude the bartender what the real story is. > >We are happy to announce the introduction of the AbbyCam*, a video >camera with which all readings will be recorded & either archived or >inadvertently taped over. If you come to a reading & do not wish to >be taped, please bring a mask or break the camera as you enter the >bar. If that doesn't do the trick, we'll just not point the thing at >you. This goes for the readers as well. If any reader wishes not to be >seen at all, please let us know & we'll move the audience out of the room. > >On behalf of Douglas Rothschild >I remain your humble snowfari guide >Brendan Lorber > >*AbbyCam is a generous gift from Abigail Lorber, my sister, who has >now covered her birthday/holiday present obligations to me until 2015. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 22:20:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Walter K. Lew" Subject: Juliana Chang's address Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Prof. Juliana Chang Dept. of English 608 S. Wright St. Urbana, IL 61801 E-mail: And for members of the list who haven't read it yet, I highly recommend her anthology, QUIET FIRE: A Historical Anthology of Asian American Poetry 1892-1970. / Walter Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:56:23 -0800 From: Summi Kaipa Subject: Re: poetics journals Anyone have a current snail mail address for Juliana Chang? Thanx Summi Walter K. Lew 11811 Venice Blvd. #138 Los Angeles, CA 90066 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 02:22:07 -0500 Reply-To: Nate and Jane Dorward Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nate and Jane Dorward Subject: Prynne/Gig website Comments: To: British-Poets List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi there--just a quick note to say that I've recently set up a _very_ elementary website at . This has a few promotional materials concerning the magazine I run, _The Gig_; a page of N&Qs concerning contemporary (mostly UK) poetry (i.e. sources for lines in various poems by Prynne, Bernstein, James, Forrest-Thomson, et al--contributions to this welcome); and, most importantly, a JH Prynne bibliography. Some listmembers may recall that I ran that bibliography at a different website; it has gotten rather out-of-date since then (most reference are only up to 1997), but I plan to update it soon, so: (1) please reset any links to my old homepage to the new homepage; (2) if you have info on bibliographical material to add please contact me. This would include e.g. reviews of Reeve & Kerridge's book or the 1999 Bloodaxe volume. -- I'll be making a full update of the bibliography later in the year, once I'm a little less preoccupied. all best --N Nate & Jane Dorward ndorward@sprint.ca 109 Hounslow Ave., Willowdale, ON, M2N 2B1, Canada ph: (416) 221 6865 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 07:47:00 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: "professional" critics/poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The charge of professionalization is thrown around a lot on this List. But what is meant by this is actually only a familiarity w/ the "professional" discourses of critical & cultural theory. Presumably the role of *poet*, for some people, excludes this familiarity. I would argue, instead, that after the Language Poets, this familiarity is essential. Why? Because the whole history of the series of changes in any aesthetic context is always *present* in the latest examples of that context--just as, to borrow a metaphor, the six numbers already dialed on a phone are present when the seventh is dialed. To the extent that such demands seem unreasonable, is to suffer from the *illusion* that the *role* of poet remains constant simply because the word *poet* does--as if there wasn't always a struggle for what that word *meant*. Ironically, Tony Green denies the existence of *competiton* while simultaneously *competing* for his own version of the *legitimate* meaning of "poet," & "poem"--neither of which are *givens*. --jacques ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:07:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: Titles In-Reply-To: <4175705266.949068510@guitart.fal.buffalo.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII like Frank O'Hara's Poem, Poem, Poem, Poem, Poem, and Poem? ----------------------------------- | Gwyn McVay gmcvay@patriot.net | | | | http://patriot.net/~gmcvay/ | ----------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 07:55:27 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: experiments online? In-Reply-To: <000501bf6b74$60963ba0$ab24c5a9@azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" and front channel wd be better. thanks. At 3:50 PM -0700 1/30/00, Tenney Nathanson wrote: >I'm looking for lists of writing "experiments" (in addition to Bernadette >Mayer's famous page), for use in a poetry for cw students grad seminar. any >resources much appreciated. backchannel is fine. > >Tenney > >mailto:tenney@azstarnet.com >mailto:nathanso@u.arizona.edu >http://www.u.arizona.edu/~nathanso/tn/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:00:26 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Frances Chung's booklist In-Reply-To: <200001311554.KAA11768@interlock.randomhouse.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" this is terrific, thanks to all who participated! At 10:52 AM -0500 1/31/00, Stefans, Brian wrote: > Hi, Anselm. > First, let > me try to say: the game, thinking > in diversity, our bewilderment detracts > "down on yourself" the best > shot as the words portend -- as split in > All. (I've been relatively > quiet on this.) WHAT THE > NAME? The site > is named > 'proximate' > as a nod > > to the... > THE SELECTED > POEMS OF FEDERICO > GARCIA LORCA, > ed. Francisco Garcia > Lorca, and what is > at stake when I talk > about success in relation > to experimental poetry. Obviously, > I am not talking about Economic > Donald M. Allen (various translators), > PICTURE BRIDE, concept of proxemics in human > > communication, > "proximate communications," > specifically > oral communications, > Kapital, even > though this > is in fact > obtainable > by contained > extralinguistic > information, > e.g., body > > language > & context. > That remote communications > such as recordings or textual communications > do not have, cannot have, > the hope of the very small minority > of experimentalist poets in > the form of grants, issues > aside from > several > respectful > conversations > > backchannel > with Internet > (as some sort > of transcendent > medium) deserves > serious skepticism > when placed, in the > hundreds of thousands > of dollars, or in the endive > tunnel (location prefigured in > Tron) who, returning no e-mails, > in such a light. Such a light? CATHY SONG, > > NO MORE MASKS! > AN ANTHOLOGY > OF POEMS BY > Jacques, Patrick > and others. > Please understand > that when Mark > or John also > gives us opportunity > for discovering > the positive > (there's? "choose > > to post > to the List") > they are doing the sale of > personal papers and correspondance (an > unusual example would SO, only > speaking for themselves), I think of always > the tension, the conflict. > The name "proximate" > is also a pun > on intimacy > on the > internet, > > as in > a proxy > mate. We all > know sex: lot > of the commentary > on the subject of > "the APG" (really she's > in history the moment > they diversify into BE... say, > Ginsberg's selling his papers to > Columbia for a million WOMEN... ed. > Florence Howe and Ellen Bass). THE has to > > do more with > how the APG > has been viewed > based upon > NEW AMERICAN > POETRY, 1945-1960. > Ed. Donald > M. Allen. THE > VOICE? wingdings > as the beatbox > track chimes > in austrian > > vicinity > in dollars. > But the fact that anyone reading > this post would feel that, is GREAT. > Within us? AMERICAN POETRY > OF THE TWENTIETH CENTURY., ed. Hayden > Carruth, FIVE DECADES, A SELECTION > (POEMS 1925-1970), Pablo > Neruda, all > uncomfortable > with the > idea of > > their > postings > from mainly > two people > than it does with > the APG as a heavy > bastard on the beach > ball fired from a canon, > communitas in the cloisters > commingling with trismagistus, swathing > their heads, being any possible > financial renumeration for experimental writing > > would only > demonstrate. > The extent > to which the > game of poetry > is one of _loser > wins_, it will > always be an > _oppositional_ > game in text > and a battle > of rhetorics > > such inasmuch > as it functions > by the *inversion* of the > principles organizing sells, especially > on the internet. The internet > seems to be used as an actual group of > individual people, but I'm going > to give my (that the corsair > archeologist > makes > intelligent > play) take > > on some > of the questions > Brian (so Brian > Eno: "fuck-a > dis, fuck- dat," > sometimes thoughtful > people are) confined > to wheelchairs in memory > for the seven reasons punk died. > Plastered to proxy for human contact > and proximal communication, which > gives me, asked, regarding the APG: the APG > > does the business > economy--in > that cultural > production > exists fundamentally > as WHEN THE > FREEWAY AGAIN, > ANONYMOUS WITH > A SEVENTY GALLON > HAIRCUT, SOMETIMES > BRAS, Ed., trans., > Ben Belitt., and > > SUNFLOWER > SPLENDOR. Ed. > Wu-chi Liu and Irving Yucheng > Pause. Such an intuition adds to what > I sense as a sort of growing > desperation for real, physical human > contact, particularly in America, > with everyone it is as > severely restricted > as exp > poetry > is, a > > production > for producers. > Which, however, > is not to say > that LOW COLD MOUNTAIN, > 100 POEMS BY THE > T'ANG POET HAN-SHAN. > trans. Burton Watson, or > TRANSLATIONS FROM THE CHINESE. > trans. Arthur Waley, lead the world > of alternative poetry and the world > of business, and not CH'ING-CHAO: COMPLETE > > POEMS. trans. > Kenneth Rexroth > and Ling Chung. > Homologous! > The alternative > poetry world, > whatever else > it is, is a > hierarchical > social space > in which agents--poets-- > working on > > him- or > herself, never > time for affection, only time > for status, career, a new car. Such > use of energy may be at odds > with a not-have-an-agenda, other than > providing an opportunity for > CHINESE FOLK POETRY. > (trans. Cecilia > Liang.), or > ONE ROBE, > ONE BOWL. > > (trans. > John). Make > sense, hippie! > Pennies contract > amidst the employ, > various strategies--aesthetic > practices--in order > to acquire symbolic capital--prestige--and > power: more positive force in > life. The world has some strange > dynamic property (of a certain > kind). Indeed, the power resulting from the > > people interested > in poetry and > poetics (other > than the usual > Southern narrative > poetry [Stevens, > ONE HUNDRED > POEMS FROM > THE CHINESE. > trans. Kenneth > Rexroth, ABC > OF READING]) > > to it; > there's something > beyond our knowledge, yet > within, around: SELECTED POEMS, > Ezra Pound, THE COMPLETE POEMS > OF CHARLES BIG SUR, cataracts, dungareed > dudes with digeridoos, values, > every other muscle pure > snowflake (that > is prevalent > in Atlanta). > To get > > together? > REZNIKOFF, > Vol. 1 and > 2. SELECTED > POEMS, Kenneth Patchen! > Perhaps such a thing > helps explain the necessity > for contact. The acquisition > of symbolic capital is the very > thing -- and that's where the pastoral > begins the satire that legitimizes > the authority of critical interpretations > > and aesthetic > judgments, generally > to discuss > same, share > what they've > written, work > on some ocassional > collaborative > works, and > try to get > stuff published. > Perhaps. (And > > their > reproduction > through the efficacy of institutional > cultural [the problem from the beginning] > was that since the APG defined > itself as a "group." It allowed for others > EMERGENCY POEMS, Nicanor Parra, > trans. Miller Williams.) > CONFIGURATIONS? > Internet > is often > used as > > a substitute > for that > contact, but > it (to assume > that we were grouping, > because we had a > shared: (1) private > language; (2) politic; > (3) aesthetic approach, and; > (4) careerist plan) NOW can't > do that well... there IS no substitute. > The "I" that the pun OctavIo Paz. trans. > > G. Aroul et > al. SUN, v. 4.2.??? > I was not there > from the beginning > which offends, > in case this > ambiance is > protective > spring (1975), > NEW POETRY > OF MEXICO, > selected with > > notes > by Octavio > Paz and others, ed. Mark Strand > (quite early one) -- ain't such somonex > clues us. It was decided somehow > that this bunch-in on the big arrears, > "Papa don't do the small phrase > anymore," leaping leotards, > batman (my piracy's > now the > mode) cushion > -- pomo, > > airy and > tight -- the > fragility of > a mind on ACID > MORNING (Dylan Thomas), and > ONE HUNDRED MORE > POEMS FROM THE JAPANESE > OF PEOPLE, would call > themselves something. When I > met up with John and Randy all > they told me was: "Offends... leaping > over the desert highway... into technology > > and exchequer..." > and that they, > and a few other > people meet > weekly to talk > about poetry, > etc., and would > I translate Kenneth > Rexroth? "IF > YOU WANT." To > be interested > in stopping > > by? "There?" > Was the stetson > blood? Is restless my bod? "On > a zine haircut, beneath the cloying smile > pill." Seems I've pivots: > "on" is relevant to a constant concern > throughout the site: no agenda, > no sales pitch, no 12 > step program--just > "this > is the > poetry > > that we > know": WHAT > WE ARE: A CARLOS > BULOSAN READER. > Ed. E. San Juan, > into, sort of, like > the idea for starting > the List Jr. ("HOME TO > STAY, ASIAN AMERICAN WOMEN'S > FICTION. ed. Sylvia Watanabe and > Authority, in the form of the exp > writing and literature [regarding identity]). > > "I"? Y? WHY > THE SITE? I > have authored > this site as > a byproduct > of (I'm posting > right now) > a community > of discussions > I have had > regarding the > internet, Carol > > Bruchac, > TAKING TO WATER > POEMS, Roberta Spear, AMPLITUDE, > Tess Gallagher, where water forgotten > my form again, rambling endlessly > in this pissing christian vision, Tron > for the babies and bacchanals > leaping before programs, > organizations > like St > Marks, > the most > > influential > interface > design and > human gesture, > the pretensions > of proximity in > small presses and magazines, > and so on, success, web > pages, and the actual distances > constructed by them, and some resulting > poetry (most of COMES TOGETHER > WITH OTHER WATER, Raymond Carver, and mystery > > and detective > novels by Sue > Grafton, Elmore > Leonard, Marcia > Muller, and > Robert People) > interested > in similar > ideas about/works > of poetry and > poetics in > poetry. > > > re: SPRING AND ALL > > thus > depends > > not as much > on intrinsic abilities > > and > gifts (since > > aesthetic value > is social > > > not VAN GULIK: THE "JUDGE > DEE" SERIES), short stories. The discussions > were this past summer and > autumn through subsubpoetics > (an e-mail > list started > by Jordan > Davis) > > as to > political > or philosophical > ideas... Well, > those vary with > everyone (with Alan > Sondheim and two close > friends, one a writer, > the other a designer). Some > material from these dialogues can > be found at another web site: the > weather screen, using dem types of woids to > > muscle support. > Is a natural, > creation, as > on the extent > of the poet's > cultural capital--that > is, his or > her sense of > the State of > the None > have become > our defining > > motive(s) > for talking > about poetics, or writing by > Anne Beattie and Ethan Canin? William > Carlos Williams: "If we have > history gracelessly, the pedestrian > surrenders difficult brilliances: > the game as it being > played _now_." > It goes > without > saying, > > however, > that both > learned anything > as human beings. > These past poetry? > Nope, no real hook > ups with the instinctual > sham-o-meter, that any > given night gives reason to > pay the rent, that reason, lost > pump fist over the castrates from > behind the gleam, http://gesture.org/text.html. > > I am interested > precisely in > the type of > relationships > that web of > armor defecated > by choice republic > -- poets and > critics have, > obviously, > a certain self-interest > in disinterestedness--that > > is, a > stake: arts/music > scene in Atlanta, although > some of us know people who pages build > between people. I have observed > that this internet aesthetic, in a _belief_ > concerning the absolute or > autonomous aesthetic > value of it, > are doing > things > around > > town. > (Hell, my > few generations? > It's that differences > make life interesting!) > Cyberpoetry! (These > thoughts fancy across > the water of talk, the > vandal in work per se.) As for > the term "conflict of values" which > Stephen asked about last week, > it would implicate, of only connection with > > the music scene > here, is (I > should be as > diverse as > our ecclectic > tastes) these > days we know, > this relater, > is a duplicitous > one (getting > back to the > original definition > > of art) > -- got some > musician friends who have > toured with/partied, of course, various > investments, it is possible > to make re such issues as the nature > of subjectivity (& its representation > in poetry), the objective > character of > language > and its > relationship > > to the > world of > things? The > connection- > career blemishes > the tubeways suspiciously, > courageously, morphs > the museums where the > more, about the esoteric rituals > of a Yao shaman than with bands > like the Black Crowes, but I discourse > fairly -- sucks, sucks, sucks discordant channels. > > > >____ > >With texts by Jacques Debrot, Patrick Herron, Rebecca Weldon Sithiwong, Dana >Lustig, etc. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:28:25 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Power poetix In-Reply-To: <20000201074737.76983.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:47 PM -0800 1/31/00, Mark DuCharme wrote: >Though I often find Jacques' posts intelligent, I have to agree with much of >what Mark Prejsnar said. If one really writes in order to accumulate >cultural capital, why then does one write-- anyone, that is, other than >[fill in the name of a poet you think has accumulated significant cultural >capital]? Yes, I know a lot of people are concerned about a lot of the >issues Jacques raises, in terms of THEIR immediate reputations. My question >then is: is that all there is? Apparently Jacques thinks so-- & this is >where the comparison to Bloom _is_ appropriate, in the sense of a reduction >of cultural activity to the most narrow & utilitarian terms. Here, I also >disagree with Tom Orange's suggestion that the issue may be one of poets' >naivite. It seems to me remarkably easy to claim that poets are naive in >this context, when naive is ultimately defined as not buying into Jacques' >particular take on literary politics. having not followed this thread closely --skimming 1st lines and deleting though noting w/ pleasure the tenacity and engaged nature of the participants --getting a sort of quick n dirty "energy read" on the thread --this --apres l'affaire ellis/debrot --is the first time in quite a while that i've read thru one of the posts, and am immediately struck by several things. 1) now i'm as anti-essentialist and also as competitive as the next gal, but it seems (and i've observed this before) that this is an alpha-male set of assumptions. i don't write to acquire cultural capital, though it has come, through my professional activity, to be a nice secondary benefit. i write to keep sane, as i suspect many of us do. 2) as one of the subjects i love to investigate is "micro-poetries," where the writer often doesn't publish --in the case of diaries, in fact, doesn't even publicize the work in any way --this model does not obtain. it is easy to see how certain micropoetries --topical verse written for certain occasions by family members etc --*does* function according to systems of cultural capital (albeit w/in the circumscribed system of the family rather than the literary world at large) --others, like lullabies, double-dutch rhymes etc are much less obviously tied in to prestige systems. so i assume that the realm you are addressing, guyzies, when you talk about "writing" is the realm of the literary. i'm deeply literary but where i get my real intellectual pleasure is from exploring the boundaries between literary and extra- or, as i now say, post-literary poetry. remaining w/in the literary just feels too claustrophobic. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 05:39:04 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "I. Schmidt" Subject: Re: Up front and out of place Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed POETICS LISTSERV. is my use publicly what That there was at some is indeed, I think, is not unusual to see how these conflicts no cultural capital— I might usefully be suceptible to describe these circumstances. Ted Berrigan was when you will find her/sense that though this is, POETICS LISTSERV.ACSU. BUFFALO.EDU From: their papers and so on . Success measured in topic &# Next less recent by very much as for yet another group POETICS@discussion group POETICS@ version of reference, origins, and magazines, and pleasure no longer really * signify* Open almost any alternative poetry itself, of copyright? Since they do Also, try here of my own content. POETICS discussion group POETICS@discussion group POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Program in topic | Previous more w/ exp poetry. simply proliferates haphazardly in post to the forms of there is when it might for a pile of values points of subjectivity its relationship to Stephen you have received approximately what I mind having acted a slightly larger circle of the various investments it is a windfall, nonetheless, for example, in the business In response to me this latter is “indeed, the only in the private papers and the public domain My point, what you will find her/ his papers and what Jacques had retracted from the most prestigious small presses. POETICS page February 2000 #11: 55:07 00: 03 PST : From: David On the forms of cultural capital would feel personally about is an endless process of . my at some is riddled w/ out for in his private Free Email at all its allure. For a gold standard for sake, is sometimes useful, especially with lazy errors and girls. Whatever ethical mistakes are asking me especial interest by Jacques noted that “anyone would be an *endless process of . getting more confessionally, or leave POETICS discussion group ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 07:44:19 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Kelley Subject: Re: Chris Kraus would like a word with you boys ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As I read this I felt very hopeless and afraid. Thanks for sending it along, Gary, I needed some old-fashioned feminist-type validation. Esp. since I am re-reading Kawabata these days, & bifurcating psychologically in response: joy at the exquisite clarity / depression in realizing that what I'm responding to is "Daddy"'s voice: zen-Daddy's story of the world as I don't know it......but wish I did. Even after all these years. And as people go pomping along in Daddy-voices they *really* believe are transparent, I-with/out-that-language (though hey, I love/respond-Pavlovianly-to that voice sometimes too) know how to listen politely and decipher and translate and reconstitute... But that little magic act is sometimes annoying/tiresome/fill-in-the-blank-with-any-exhausted-human-response. The Daddy-static can be as glaring as a workshop poem's faux transparency to a language poet. ---------- > From: Gary Sullivan > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Chris Kraus would like a word with you boys ... > Date: Friday, January 28, 2000 10:02 AM > > "WHO GETS TO SPEAK AND WHY?, I wrote last week, IS THE ONLY QUESTION." - > Chris Kraus, _I Love Dick_ (Semiotext(e), 1997) > > I love Chris Kraus. (Thanks, Jordan Davis, for turning me on to her book.) > I'm just about done with _I Love Dick_, and I wanted to suggest it, if Mark > P., Stephen E., Jacques D., Anselm B., Tom O., and others > involved/interested in the "power" discussion are interested, as being > fairly relevant. It's ostensibly a novel comprised of love letters, and it's > both, but it's also a way for Kraus to examine the very things you guys are > examining (and/or dismissing) here. The book is, I guess you'd say, > self-published, since Kraus edits the Native Agents series this book is part > of. (Which sort of matters in this instance.) I'll post here a section from > an interview with Kraus, and then a bit of the book ... it's kinda long .. > > FROM THE INTERVIEW: > > GI: When did the love letters change into a novel? You started writing, it > became more compulsive, and then it must have clicked into a book project. > You started to address an audience... > > CK: Well, I realized that I had a problem. And my problem was, as an > artist, I had not been heard. And I didn't want to believe that the problem > was my fault. I thought it was cultural. You know, like Deleuze says, life > is not personal. Because if success is culturally determined then so is > failure. And it seemed to me that a lot of women who were working in a vein > similar to mine had also experienced this "failure." So what drove me on was > trying to figure out why there was no position in the culture for female > outsiders. You know, singular men are geniuses. Singular women are just > "quirky." Of course I really have Dick to thank for this, because he gave me > someone to write to. > > GI: There's a literary fashion now for confessional literature. On the one > hand your book is confessional, on the other it's a book about the > intellectual context of America in the past 25 years. What's the difference? > > CK: Well, I want to say there isn't any. And that's why this book is a > strategic confession. I'm very drawn to the use of the first person. When I > started the Native Agents series of books for Semiotext(e) seven years ago, > it was to publish the kind of writing that I liked -- and that writing was > entirely in the first person. And yet it was not an introspective, > psychoanalytic "I." It was an "I" that was totally alive, because it was > shifting. There's a tradition of American poetry that champions and > celebrates this -- New York School, the Poetry Project and all of its > successors. These people are true geniuses because they're living constantly > with ideas, they're fluent in a huge literary tradition. And yet they're > often denigrated by academe and the institutionalized avant-garde because > these ideas are experienced immediately and personally. > > GI: So you think, like the '70s feminists thought, that the personal is > political? > > CK: The personal pursued for its own sake is no good. The "I" is only useful > to the point that it gets outside itself, gets larger. In writing this, I > kept looking for other people's tracks that I was writing in. No one ever > does anything for the first time. I discovered that the New Zealand novelist > Katherine Mansfield had been there too -- SHE fell in love with Dick, and > wrote a story about it. > > GI: Most of the successful art-world figures who you describe in I Love Dick > are pretty fucked up. The whole show is revealed as being pretty > dissatisfied.... > > CK: Yes! > > GI: So you'd have to reconsider the whole notion of privilege then, wouldn't > you? > > CK: Well, once you call yourself the biggest asshole, you give yourself a > lot of freedom. > > GI: So you put yourself in the abject position? > > CK: Life had put me in the abject position, so I thought I might as well > take advantage of it. > > GI: So it's a kind of freedom. > > CK: If no one cares what you have to say, then you can say anything. > > > > > > > > > > > EXCERPT FROM THE BOOK > > 2. The Birthday Party > > Inside out > Boy you turn me > Upside down and > Inside out.... > -- late 70s disco song > > Joseph Kosuth's 50th birthday party last January was reported the next day > on Page Six of the New York Post. And everything was just as perfect as they > said: about 100 guests, a number large enough to fill the room but small > enough for each of us to feel among the intimates, the chosen. Joseph and > Cornelia and their child had just arrived from Belgium; Marshall Blonsky, > one of Joseph's closest friends, and Joseph's staff had been planning it for > weeks. > > Sylvere and I drove down from Thurman. I dropped him off outside the loft, > parked the car and arrived at Joseph's door at the same moment as another > woman, also entering alone. Each of us gave our names to Joseph's doorman. > Each of us had names that weren't there. "Check Lotringer," I said. > "Sylvere." And sure enough, I was Sylvere Lotringer's "Plus One" and she was > someone else's. Riding up the elevator, checking makeup, collars, hair, she > whispered, "The last thing you want to feel before walking into one of these > things is that you're not invited," and we smiled and wished each other luck > and parted at the coat-check. But luck was something that I didn't feel much > need for because I had no expectations: this was Joseph's party, Joseph's > friends, people, (mostly men, except for female art dealers and us > Plus-Ones) from the early '80s art world, so I expected to be patronized and > ignored. > > Drinks were at one end of the loft; dinner at the other. David Byrne was > wandering across the room, as tall as a Moorish king in a magnificent fur > hat. I stood next to Kenneth Broomfield at the bar and said a tentative > hello; he hissed and turned away. A tighter grip around the scotch glass, > standing there in my dark green Japanese wool dress, high heels and make up > ... But look! There's Marshall Blonsky! Marshall greets me at the bar and > says that seeing me reminds him of a party we attended some 11 years ago > when I was Marshall's date. And of course he would remember, because the > party was given by Xavier Fourcade to celebrate the publication of > Marshall's first book, On Signs, at Xavier's Sutton Place townhouse. It was > late winter, early spring, Aquarius or Pisces and I remember guests tripping > past the caterers and staff to walk around the green expanse of daffodils > and bunny lawn that separated us from the river. David Salle was there, > Umberto Eco was there, together with a stable-load of Fourcade's models and > a reviewer from the New York Times. > > At that time I was living in a tenement on Second Avenue and studying charm > as a possible escape. Could I be Marshall Blonsky's perfect date? I'd given > up trying to be as sexual as Liza Martin but I was small-boned, thin, with a > New Zealand accent trailing off to something that sounded vaguely > mid-Atlantic. Perhaps something could be done with this? By then I'd read > enough that no one guessed I'd never been to school. Marshall and I'd been > introduced by our mutual friend Louise Bourgeois. I loved her and he was > fascinated by her iron will and growing fame. "It is the ability to > sublimate that makes an artist," she told me once. And "the only hope for > you is marrying a critic or an academic. Otherwise you'll starve." And in > the interest of saving me from poverty, Louise had given me, for this > occasion, the perfect dress: a straight wool boucle pumpkin colored shift, > historically important, the dress she'd worn accompanying Robert > Rauschenberg to his opening on East 10th ... Most of Marshall's friends were > men -- critics, psychoanalysts, semioticians -- and he liked that he could > walk me round the room and I'd perform for them, listening, cracking jokes > in their own special languages, guiding the conversation back to Marshall's > book. So French New Wave. Being weightless and gamine, spitting prettily at > rules and institutions, a talking dog without the dreariness of a position > to defend. > > Dear Dick, It hurts me that you think I'm "insincere." Nick Zedd and I were > both interviewed once about our films for English television. Everyone in > New Zealand who saw the show told me how they liked Nick best 'cause he was > more sincere. Nick was just one thing, a straight clear line -- Whoregasm, > East Village gore 'n porn -- and I was several. And-and-and. And isn't > sincerity just a denial of complexity? You as Johnny Cash driving your > Thunderbird into the Heart of Light. What put me off experimental-film-world > feminism, besides all it's boring study groups on Jacques Lacan, was it's > sincere investigation into the dilemma of the Pretty Girl. As an Ugly Girl > it didn't matter much to me. And didn't Donna Haraway finally solve this by > saying all female lived experience is a bunch of riffs, completely fake, so > we should recognize ourselves as Cyborgs? But still the fact remains: You > moved out to the desert on your own to clear the junk out of you're life. > You are trying to find some way of living you believe in. I envy this. > > Jane Bowles described this problem of sincerity in a letter to her husband > Paul, the "better" writer: > > "August 1947 > Dearest Bupple, > ... The more I get into it, the more isolated I feel vis-a-vis the writers > who I consider to be of any serious mind. I am enclosing this article > entitled New Heroes by Simone de Beauvoir. Read the sides that are marked > pages 121 and 123. It is what I have been thinking at the bottom of my mind > all this time and God knows it is difficult to write the way I do and yet > think their way. This problem you will never have to face because you have > always been a truly isolated person so that whatever you write will be good > because it will be true which is not so in my case. You immediately receive > recognition because what you write is in true relation to yourself which is > always recognizable to the world outside. With me who knows? When you are > capable only of a serious approach to writing as I am it is almost more than > one can bear to be continually doubting one's sincerity...." > > Reading Jane Bowles' letters makes me angrier and sadder than anything to > do with you. Because she was just so brilliant and she was willing to take a > crack at it -- telling the truth about her difficult and contradictory life. > And because she got it right. Even though, like the artist Hannah Wilke, she > hardly found anybody to agree with her in her own lifetime. You're the > Cowboy, I'm the Kike. Steadfast and true, slippery and devious. We aren't > anything but our circumstances. Why is it men become essentialists, > especially in middle age? > > And at Joseph's party time stands still and we can do it all again. > Marshall walks me over to two men in suits, a Lacanian and a world banker > form the UN. We talk about Microsoft and Bill Gates and Timothy Leary's > brunches until a tall and immaculately gorgeous WASP woman joins us and the > conversation parts away from jokes about interest rates and transference to > make room for Her.... > > (As I write this I feel very hopeless and afraid) > > Later Marshall made a birthday speech for Joseph that he'd been scribbling > on all night. And Glenn O'Brien, looking like Steve Allen at the piano, > performed a funny scat-singing recitative about Joseph's legendary > womanizing, wealth and art. Everyone clapping, laughing, camp but serious > and boozy like in the film The Girl Can't Help It, men in suits playing TV > beatniks but where's Jayne Mansfield as the fall girl? Then David Byrne and > John Cale played piano and guitar and people danced. > > Sylvere got drunk and teased Diego, something about politics, and Diego got > mad and tossed his drink in Sylvere's face. And Warren Niesluchowski was > there, and John and Anya. Later Marshall marshaled a gang of little men, the > banker, the Lacanian and Sylvere, to the card room to drink scotch and talk > about the Holocaust. The four looked like the famous velvet painting of > card-playing dogs. > > And it got late and someone turned on some vintage disco, and all the > people young enough never to've heard these songs the first time round got > up and danced. Funky Town, Le Freak and Inside Out.... The songs that played > in topless clubs and bars in the late '70s while these men were getting > famous. While I and all my friends, the girls, were paying for our rent and > shows and exploring "issues of our sexuality" by shaking to them all night > long in topless bars. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:42:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: lie? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII e having to withstand personal insults of the kind that, for example, mark presjnar lobs at me after each post i make, ********** I THINK CHECKING THE RECORD WILL REVEAL THAT THIS AIN'T TRUE --m. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 07:32:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: documentary poems In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" We still have the original of Firebird by Paul Metcalf, mentioned by Damon in his post below, available here at Chax Press. Published as a limited edition letterpress work, with frontispiece illustration and linoleum blocks as section titles. Also, what bookstores? I haven't been in one in a very long time that had any Paul Metcalf books at all. Charles Alexander At 12:36 PM 1/28/00 -0800, you wrote: >(I'm reminded by Stephen Vincent's "New York On Fire" post of:) > >Paul Metcalf. Most of his stuff is "documentary poetry" -- although I, for >one, am not sure why he's usually put in the Poetry sections of bookstores >instead of "[Prose] Literature." Then again, I taught "Firebird" (from >Collected Works vol. 3) in the poetry segment of a course of mine once >(that's the "New York On Fire" connection). Also check out "Genoa," "Middle >Passage," and "Apalache" in vol. 1 and everything in vol. 2. > >Can I just say for a moment? -- I love Paul Metcalf. > >Also, perhaps, "documentary" is the very small and beautifully designed >"Wrackline" by Daniel Bouchard, available through Small Press Distribution >unless everyone else I've recommended it to have already bought a copy. > >Jena, can you email (the list or me backchannel) what you end up using and >how it goes? > >Damion Searls > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 07:34:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: documentary poems In-Reply-To: <20000128224656.OMXD7433@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A Reading 8-10 still available from Chax Press (email me). A smaller book, that includes Dahlen's "A Reading Spicer" as well as 17 sonnets by her, will be available in April from Chax. Charles At 10:46 PM 1/28/00 +0000, you wrote: >I really enjoy the notion of Dahlen's ongoing _A Reading_ >as a documentary project. I think it makes a tremendous >amount of sense: Documentary of time (bodily time, >calendar time), life (as both reader/writer). Documenting >one's reading life is very compelling. > >Kathy Lou Schultz > >Bev Dahlen's A Reading as a documentary (that's probably a >stretch). >> Dave Zauhar > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:07:37 -0700 Reply-To: Laura.Wright@Colorado.EDU Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wright Laura E Subject: Re: Titles and Shape of Time In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re Titles I think of titles (for poems, books, artworks, etc.) rather the same way I do names for pets and children. For the most part, I like to meet the thing before naming it... but sometimes the name generates the thing. (I have a name picked out already for the dog I anticipate getting in about a year.) For poems, my titles are often more indicative of the general circumstances under which a poem was written, rather than any sort of "content." ('m the sort who writes a note or an essay if I have a message.) I love Maureen Owen's titles and subtitles -- which remind me of the chapter titles of 18th-19th century novels (or of Winnie-the-Pooh books), beginning "In which..." Re Time/Shape I'm intrigued by this notion, though it's very difficult to articulate. Time is somewhat wave-like for me, always advancing and receding simultaneously. Both past and future seem pretty abstract -- but past more malleable and future more clouded over. My memories seem almost random to me... and about as real as the imagined future. Laura ------------------ "I would sooner read a timetable or a catalogue than nothing at all." -W. Somerset Maugham Laura E. Wright Norlin Acquisitions (303) 492-8457 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 13:45:44 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gerald Schwartz Subject: Re: An Amusing Thought MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Jesse & List: The field of Ethnomethodology has produced some produced some interesting work, one study coming to mind is : "Ethnomethodology and the Study of Online Communities: Exploring the Cyber Streets" by Steven Thomsen, Joseph Straubhhaar and Drew Bolyard. Their analysis reveals that one function of a group was for associational purposes, an attempt to understand the contributions of partcipation to the development of self-esteem and self-validation, particularly for those members who felt they suffered from both social and professional isolation. Best, Gerald ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 13:28:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jamie Perez Subject: Epoetry@EPC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit where did the classification names on this come from (Kinetic, etc.). (Aside: I'm worried about them). Meant to be more exact, but I'm having trouble connecting to the EPC today. I do look forward to this section "blooming" like many other EPC sections have over the years. Second aside: how many sites can you say you've actually used/visited somewhat consistantly "over the years." And how many of them aren't portals/search engines. jamie.p ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 12:26:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jamie Perez Subject: Re: Titles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I enjoy titles. I enjoy writing them, too. To me they are all about contextualizing the poem. Not to say that I think the title should be "about" the same thing the poem is "about." But in terms of heirarchies of meaning, titles hold a pretty impressive and huge spot that one definitely needs to be wary of. When publications print more than one of somebody's poems and the TOC just says "J. Smith, Three Poems" a great deal of the titles power is lost (not a bad thing always). Band names/Pen Names/Alter Egos are all strongly related to titling. Working on a formal series for a while now, I have a whole list of titles for these poems. Some of them take, some of them don't, some of them are cannibalised into later poems. All of them employ different strategies: clarifying, obfuscating, describing something in the poem, describing something else, hooky titles, funny titles, seeds for improvisation, collected phrases, etc. I fear committing to one titling strategy as much as I fear one of any other strategy. Some title forms I enjoy: <>Titles that are really just the first line of the poem (not the first line of the poem repeated in a larger font at the top of the page) and you just don't know how to read it correctly <>Many works by one author using the same title that then need to be differentiated in other ways by readers/classifiers <>Numbered series (roman numerals or not) <>Those really long titles old Chinese poetry in translation tends to employ (Standing on the Dock in December Reading a line of Sun Tzu While Boats Wander), I esp. hope that these are completely fabricated situations, tho I know they probably are not <>AP Headline writing style <>Whoever recently did an alphabet series, with titles that went "Aa" "Bb" like a primer. I think it's in Germ (I'm at work where many of my magazines are not)? The poet or the magazine's designer/editor coupled those with a good font choice. Those were really nice. <>I'm a sucker for the Untitled oxymoron as well least enjoyed title style: <>a word or phrase that is then used in the work. Noticed/was bothered by this most when it was happening in a lot of mid-90s prose. It was like taking a neon highlighter to the word or phrase when it finally came up in the work. Like the "emphasis" or "focus" analog to a sledgehammer. jamie.p ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 11:57:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lowther, John" Subject: FW: the Language Art Comments: To: poetix-MODERATOR MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" this is my 3rd attempt to post this, maybe this time.... > -----Original Message----- > From: Lowther, John > Sent: Friday, January 21, 2000 3:13 PM > To: 'buffalist' > Subject: the Language Art > > > > { p o e t i x } > > > it wasnt my idea nor my coinage ---- but it is my idea now, and one that i > find useful to think about and to insert when and where my notions of > poetry stiffen here or there ---- my source for both the term if not any > spin i've placed on it is david antin; > > this comes from _Occident_ Vol. VIII, spring 1974, "Some Questions About > Modernism" in which the editors of occident are responding to his essay > from _Boundary 2_ > > editors; "Modernism and Postmodernism" is partly concerned with > distinguishing modernisms which are usually thought of as cognate---for > example, Eliot's from Pound's. Since Eliot and Pound are usually > associated with Joyce and the modernist prose movement your argument > clearly would have consequences there too. Briefly what account would you > make of the moderns in prose as related to the poets? > > david antin; Why do you ask about "prose?" It's like saying to me "You've > been discussing modernist developments in mathematics and have developed a > notion of modernist mathematical styles, how would you apply these notions > of modernism to accounting?" The only way that I can even approach the > question is by supposing that you don't really mean "prose" writers; and > I'm sure you don't. Because if I said that the only modernist prose writer > is Wittgenstein, you'd say "That's not what I mean." And of course, it > isn't what you mean. Which is a relief for me, because I don't really > think that the notion of prose exists on the same plane as the notion of > poetry. As far as I'm concerned there is the language art. That's poetry. > All of it. There are then genres within it. Like narration. And there's a > subform of narration. Called fiction. And a subform of that called "the > novel," a narrational form with an enveloping commitment to a certain > notion of "reality," constructed out of commonsense intuitions about > character and objects, and social and psychological events and > probability. That's not "prose." The idea of "prose" is only an additional > prop for the novel. "Prose" is the name of a kind of notational style. > It's a way of making language look responsible. You've got justified > margins, capital letters to begin graphemic strings which, when they are > concluded by periods, are called sentences, indented sentences that mark > off blocks of sentences that you call paragraphs. This notational > apparatus is intended to add probity to the wildly irresponsible, > occasionally illuminating and usually playful system called language. > Novels may be written in "prose;" but in the beginning no books were > written in prose, they were printed in prose, because "prose" conveys an > illusion of a commonsensical logical order. It's as appropriate to the > novel as ketchup to a hamburger, which is to say that it's not very good > but the hamburger wouldn't go far without it. This is not to say that > once you start to notate talk into "prose" that it doesn't exert a > coercive force upon what you say and how you say it. As with all notations > it has conventions, writing rules and the like, that will prevent you from > saying a lot of things, or at least make it difficult to get those things > notated clearly, or in their full energy and perspicuity. It will also > encourage you to talk in such a way as to make it easier for you to use > the notation. So the conventions of printing and the "prose" notation that > developed out of it encouraged the use of certain kinds of language and > discouraged other kinds in the books that were printed in "prose." > > _________end quote > > some may feel as if that passage cd have been shortened, but i found the > discussion of prose potentially useful in relation to some of the doubts i > raised about the "politics of poetic form" > > what follows is a portion of an email from david wherein he is responding > to a thread that developed here in town when we collectively were thinking > thru the notion of poetry as 'the language art' ---- someone here took the > idea as implying that ~all language is poetry~ and that further that all > novels plays essays etc were poems --- the passage above gives a certain > support for that idea --- but there was also some uncertainty about > another comment of david's about how some of his talks he thought of as > poems and some as essays and some as "just talk" --- faced with this my > friend felt let down, as if david had "let poetry off the hook" by > distinguishing between language uses andsaying this or that ~is/is not~ > poetry ---- david responds to this as follows; > > david antin: My comment had nothing to do with intensity, vividness or > concentration. It was based merely on the supposition that the an art > essay, for example, or a historical essay has a somewhat more determinate > direction in which it is headed than my "talk pieces", and this aim tends > to restrict its > exploratory possibilities, often for very good reasons. I regard art > making as less responsible, more open to contingency and discovery. > Sometimes it's only a matter of degree -- as for example, in Montaigne's > essays. They begin with what appears to be a clear direction and his > artistic sensibility pushes at the edges of the roadway he seems to have > laid out for himself. I don't think it would be very helpful to separate > all of Montaigne's essays from the notion of poetry. Perhaps I could make > this clearer by saying that I regard "The Communist Manifesto" as a poem, > in which Marx allowed his vision of Dr. Frankenstein-Capitalism's creation > of the (good) Proletariat Monster to run his fantasy of history to its > apocalyptic end. His persistent tendency toward poem-making erupts again > and again in Kapital, and it is his uncontrollable poetic capability and > the vision it produces that lights up his economic and historical > scholarship. While the outcome he foresaw has not occurred and may not > occur, his vision of the creative and destructive course of the historical > change he called capitalism continues to illuminate most serious > historical, economic, social and political and cultural thinking since > then. > > ________end quote > > both of these passages might provoke any number of readings ---- but i > think that they provide some context for my transcription of taxonomies > for ant species and calling them poetry ---- and to pick up a thread in > another posting here days ago, i cd just as easily see a "call in the > wild" or a "letter" as just as much an instance of poetry as anything > resulting from a more "dichten condensare" * -sort of attitude (one that > doesnt appeal to me very much really) > > consequently, of the long post i sent that was in tercets and the other in > 'sonnet' shapes; i don't consider their "form" in that (to me) trivial > (common?) sense of the term to be even relevant to the question of whether > either is poetry ---- when i asked a correspondent backchannel about > whether one cd just "dump prose into tercets, sonnet forms etc" i got the > following reply; > > > is that a good question, though? I mean, you can just go ahead and do > it, and call it poetry, but in my mind i cannot read it like what other > things i read as poetry. poetry IS craft on some level, and even prose > can be craft, poetic. if you took your prose and polished it to high > heaven and rolled it with odd turns of phrase (which I know you can do in > greater abundance), then it becomes poetry. poetry should be slow and > difficult to read on some level, and musical on some level. so just > dumping prose may not be so poetic. tweaking it can make it poetic. > ________end quote > > at a lecture recently i heard someone say "art questions, craft confirms" > and while i don't know if i'm at all happy about the sharpness of the line > implied between these things ---- that it comes to mind after having just > reread the above quotation is in some sense telling of my response to it > ---- oddly (perhaps) it isnt that i disagree with any of the ideas that > this quotation contains, but that many of things pointed at, "difficulty," > "polish," "odd turns of phrase" ---- that these things be considered > defining of poetry ; that idea i reject outright ---- that poetry could > have any of these thing, sure, of course even, just as i might have fries > with that > > enough for now > > )L > > > * i've recently been informed that the 'dichten condensare' > story, at least that of its origin, appears to've been made up, or to put > it more generously, to be a bit of mythology > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 11:50:35 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Nelson Subject: speak magazine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I completely agree about Speak magazine....Speak out of San Fransisco is a great venue for interesting writing and art and the like...not only is the format interesting, but they have a big readership...which is more (on bopth counts) than most academic lit journals....I was lucky enough to have a flash fiction published as the first in their sudden fiction series... you should also look into Elixir magazine out of Eugene and Plazm magazine out of Portland cheers, Jason ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 10:46:02 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Up front & in place MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The primary question, mine, which is quite different than the discussion on the list so far is: When did what the author intended become important? Who cares? This seems to be that ole textual McGann hullabaloo all over again & little to do with "cultural capital" or Bourdieu. The ease of the transition for one to change private to public information on e-mail, hits me as a new twisting on textual situations. David Kellogg maybe opinionated on this & prob p-o'd, but it is a different scale to measure, a clash of authorial intent's measure in the mix. As one just joining this discussion, the question is one of intellectual belonging, to whom is belonged in the process of neglected intention. Is "this" mine? Are we at the segment of intent called meaning? Authorial intention is beyond the author's controlling capacity once something is written, it's part of the gig. Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 11:21:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: Up front and out of place In-Reply-To: <20000201150003.87473.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Stephen,=20 Oh for Christ's sake will you listen to yourself. It is in my view=20 unethical either (1) to move things from one private list to another, and= =20 (2) to "out" backchannel discussions without clearing with all parties. =20 Now you justify the first by doing the second with my message? =20 I don't care about the content of the thread per se, but I wish you'd=20 stop trying to justify your actions through theorization and perpetuation= =20 (since you have continued the practice by forcing my backchannel message=20 to the front. (No) thanks.) Cheers, David On Tue, 1 Feb 2000, Stephen Ellis wrote: > Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 07:00:03 PST > From: Stephen Ellis > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Up front and out of place >=20 > David, okay, but >=20 > why tell me this to the side? Why not put it up on the List? Ethical > mistakes are common, and, I think, sometimes useful, especially with resp= ect > to the formally "cozy" sense I get from the List that all its participant= s > are good boys and girls. Whatever "offense" I "committed" remains in the > public domain, and can be commented on, as you've done. While I respect > your opinion - or, rather the fact that you have one - I prefer not to > regard it as the form of "behaviorsim" that it does in fact seem, ie., wi= th > the hope of "preventing" future offenses against the proprietary aspects = of > The Private. I should make clear the fact that Jacques' post was not > originally a back-channel, but was sent over a weekend during wch it woul= d > not have appeared on the List, imn order that I might see it without that > attending time lag. I saw later, in Jacques' post to Anselm, that he > (Jacques) had retracted from the List his post in response to me. > Nevertheless, >=20 > (despite whatever "ethical" propriety) the post in question was still > "material" that had, to me, especial interest by way of comparison to wha= t > Jacques said in his post to Anselm. Ie., there was between the two a cha= nge > and development of thought wch might usefully be considered. So why ask > permission? I mean, who "owns" thought, or its expression? Are we to > presume that such are by their nature immediately under the likes of > copyright? Since language is the determining aspect of the public domain= , > it seems to me that anything said or written is equally so, despite it ma= y > provide cause for offense on the part of those so quoted. But so what? > That sort of offense can be generative as well as merely offensive. In > fact, without some sense of offense, society (including the society of th= is > List) becomes increasingly stifled and uniform, a neo-conservative poetic= s > version of The Stepford Wives in wch reproduction for its own sake is the > be-all and end-all of Being. Are we to presume that respect for one's > private authority take the place of that authority's expression in the > public domain of language? And if we hope to ever expand that domain, ho= w > can this be accomplished when the private authority that determines it is > permitted to overwhelm its possibilities by "owning" them without at the > same time being responsible to "what is said" outside of the fact of who > said it first? That, I think, is where my presumption of what you take t= o > be "ethical" begins to take part in the continuation of a lie - asking > permission to use publicly what already is, by the fact of its expression= , > in the public domain. My own sense of ethics in this is, when you ask > permission, you get denial. That's the set-up. Like an over-inflation o= f > personhood - against wch I don't mind having acted a little seditiously. = As > the poet Karen Driscoll said, >=20 > I've learned a few things: >=20 > honey is a discharge >=20 > we're in a pile of shit >=20 > What's there to dread? Dig up! > Otherwise, sleep with significance >=20 > * >=20 > S E >=20 >=20 >=20 > >From: David Kellogg > >To: Stephen Ellis > >Subject: Re: Up front and out of place > >Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 11:55:07 -0500 (EST) > > > > > >Stephen, > > > >If, as I am given to understand, you did not get Debrot's permission to > >redistribute this post to another list, then you have committed a seriou= s > >fucking ethical mistake. What were you thinking? > > > >Cheers, > >David > > > >On Fri, 28 Jan 2000, Stephen Ellis wrote: > > > > > Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 05:59:18 PST > > > From: Stephen Ellis > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > > > Subject: Re: Up front and out of place > > > > > > >The following comprises two posts written by Jacques Debrot, the fir= st > >to > > > >Anselm Berrigan, wch appeared on the List, and the second to me =96 = the > >post > > > >that Jacques mentions in his post to Anselm as having been > >=93successfully > > > >retracted=94 but which I have from him as a back channel. Since in > >Jacques=92 > > > >view this latter is =93riddled with lazy errors=94, and since in a b= rief > >post > > > >to > > > >subsubpoetics (subsubpoetics@listbot.com), Jacques noted that =93the= only > > > >reason to post to [the Buffalo List is] the interesting back-channel > > > >discussions the various threads somehow generate=94, I thought it mi= ght > >be > > > >useful to disregard Jacques=92 retraction of the second post here fo= r the > > > >sake > > > >of comparison, ie., to give opportunity for those interested to loca= te > >ways > > > >in wch the thinking in his post to me may in fact BE fallible (if at > >all) > > > >in > > > >relation to the related post to Anselm, wch Jacques DID post. If th= e > >UB > > > >list archive is indeed, as Jacques suggests, =93pretty dull to read= =94 it > >may > > > >be > > > >enlivened by getting more bc activity up front; for all the =93lazy > >errors=94 > > > >that in fact may be part of private communication, it is exactly the= se > >that > > > >might prove to be most generative to the public aspect of the list. = In > > > >addition, it might also be interesting for UB participants to note t= he > > > >tenor > > > >over on =93the other list=94, and to make pertinent comment =96 the > >hybridization > > > >of a little =93cross-town traffic=94 after all, wouldn=92t hurt what= Jacques > >and > > > >others have suggested is sometimes a pretty tired strain that passes > > > >uneasily for =93discussion=94 here. > > > >- S E > > > > > > > > > > > > > >______________________________________________________________________= ______ > > > >______________________ > > > > > > > > > > > >Hi Anselm, > > > > > > > >(I believe I have successfully retracted a post (riddled w/ lazy > >errors) on > > > >this same subject written last Fri. in response to Stephen Ellis-- s= o, > > > >hopefully, I am not repeating myself here.) > > > > > > > >First, let me try to say what is at stake when I talk about success = in > > > >relation to experimental poetry. Obviously, I am not talking about > > > >economic > > > >capital, even though this is in fact obtainable by a very small > >minority of > > > >experimentalist poets in the form of grants (in the hundreds of > >thousands > > > >of > > > >dollars) or in the sale of personal papers and correspondance (an > >unusual > > > >example would be, say, Ginsberg's selling his papers to Columbia for= a > > > >million dollars). But the fact that anyone reading this post would > >feel at > > > >all uncomfortable with the idea of there being any possible financia= l > > > >renumeration for experimental writing would only demonstrate the > >extent to > > > >which the game of poetry is one of *loser wins*. It will always be = an > > > >*oppositional* game inasmuch as it functions by the *inversion* of t= he > > > >principles organizing the business economy--in that cultural product= ion > > > >exists fundamentally as (when it is as severely restricted as exp > >poetry > > > >is) > > > >a production for producers. Which, however, is not to say that the > >world > > > >of > > > >alternative poetry and the world of bussiness are not homologous. = The > > > >alternative poetry world, whatever else it is, is a hierarchical soc= ial > > > >space in which agents--poets-- employ various strategies--aesthetic > > > >practices=97in order to acquire symbolic capital--prestige--and powe= r (of > >a > > > >certain kind). > > > >Indeed, the power resulting from the acquisition of symbolic capital= is > >the > > > >very thing that legitimizes the authority of critical interpretation= s > >and > > > >aesthetic judgments generally (and their reproduction through the > >efficacy > > > >of institutional cultural authority in the form of the exp writing a= nd > > > >literature programs, organizations like St Marks, the most influenti= al > > > >small > > > >presses and magazines, and so on). Success in poetry thus depends n= ot > >as > > > >much on intrinsic abilities and gifts (since aesthetic value is a > >social, > > > >not a natural, creation) as on the extent of the poet's cultural > > > >capital=97that is, his or her sense of the state of the game as it b= eing > > > >played *now*. It > > > >goes without saying, however, that both poets and critics have, > >obviously, > > > >a > > > >certain self-interest in disinterestedness--that is, a stake in a > >*belief* > > > >concerning the absolute or autonomous aesthetic value of the work pe= r > >se. > > > > > > > >As for the term "conflict of values" which Stephen asked about last > >week, > > > >it > > > >would implicate, of course, the various investments it is possible t= o > >make > > > >re such issues as the nature of subjectivity (& its representation i= n > > > >poetry), the objective character of language and its relationship to > >the > > > >world of things, the connection of art to politics (overt? covert? > > > >transcendental?), etc. But it is my impression that these conflicts= no > > > >longer really *signify* in the way they used to. Open almost any > > > >alternative magazine and you will find a bizarre mix of contradictor= y > > > >styles > > > >(each of which is subtended by very different values). The editoria= l > > > >stance > > > >of these magazines is, in almost all cases, impossible to determine.= & > > > >when--very rarely-- the editor > > > >does (bravely) state her or his position, it is not unusual to find > >her/him > > > >dissing the very kind of poetry he/she has been publishing all along= , > >or > > > >that the book reviews (if the magazine carries them) are extolling. > >But > > > >this isn't bad faith, so much as the implicit recognition that a gol= d > > > >standard for aesthetic judgement and pleasure no longer exists. A= s a > > > >result, alternative poetry simply proliferates haphazardly in a stat= e > >of > > > >(almost) pure circulation (with the exception that as Warhol realize= d, > >fame > > > >(contingent, stupid, indifferent) is the single most important point= of > > > >reference or criteria for aesthetic (or other) judgements). It is > >thus > > > >difficult to see how poetry can serve as an emancipatory or moralist= ic > >=96or > > > >politically oppositional--discourse. Why, as Stephen again asked, a= re > >we > > > >"ideologically blind" to this? Because as Baudrillard puts it, "whe= n > > > >things, signs , or actions are freed from their respective ideas, > > > >concepts, > > > >values, points of reference, origins, and aims, they embark upon an > >endless > > > >process of self-reproduction. Yet things continue to function long > >after > > > >the > > > >ideas have disappeared, and they do so in total indifference to thei= r > >own > > > >content. The paradoxical fact is that they function even better unde= r > >these > > > >circumstances." > > > > > > > >Ted Berrigan is an exemplary case. I am not at all surprised that, > >like > > > >Bernstein, he also compared poetry to a small business. In fact, > >Padgett, > > > >in _TED_, if I remember it correctly, reveals him as being, for > >example, > > > >very much concerned with his inclusion in the Norton Anthology. But > > > >yes--I'd say of course that, without any doubt, Ted Berrigan was a > >great > > > >success (measured in terms of symbolic capital). If his books went = out > >of > > > >print, it is because these were carried by commercial publishers > > > >(right?)--so he paid a certain price in moving from an economy of > > > >restricted production to one of a slightly larger scale (but loser > >wins!). > > > >Also, of course, he possessed an > > > >extraordinary degree of cultural capital insamuch as he was at the > >center > > > >of > > > >various avant-garde coteries--Warhol's Factory, the NY School, etc.-= -in > > > >which a sense of the values at stake was somewhat arcane (circulatin= g, > >as > > > >it > > > >did,often in socially closed or private conditions). > > > > > > > >--jacques > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > >Hi, > > > >As it will probably be Mon before this appears on the Buff List, I > >thought > > > >I > > > >would send my response to your post to you before then. As these > >things > > > >are > > > >written on the fly your remarks did seem a little unfair, but I did = try > > > >here > > > >to be more specific--but I think this is about as much as I can affr= od > >to > > > >elaborate in any one post--so, perhaps more in the future? > > > > > > > >--j > > > > > > > > > > > >Stephen, > > > > > > > >When you write "What form of =93cultural capital=94 do you think to= gain =96 > > > >or more to the point, what is the objectively get-able =93thing=94 o= ne > >strives > > > >for in the act of writing?" instead of getting "more" to the point, > >you > > > >actually ask 2 different things. Let me try to answer them--first i= n a > > > >general sense & then more confessionally, or subjectively, as you se= em > >to > > > >want me to do. Also, I'll try to respond (implicitly throughout) to > >your > > > >other pertinent question re my use of generic terms & the specificit= y > >of > > > >what I mean by the term =93conflict of values.=94 > > > > > > > >First, I assume I'm being asked what are the forms of cultural capit= al > > > >available, not only to me, but to poets--or rather, to experimentali= st > > > >poets--generally? As I understand it, there are something like 800 > > > >subscribers to the Buffalo Listserve--of which the overwhelming > >majority > > > >are > > > >most likely poets--anyone, let's say, who has ever written a poem w/ > >the > > > >idea of publishing it. Let's say, too, that the large majority of > >these > > > >poets are experimentalist (for argument's sake, any poet writing out= of > >the > > > >New American, Language, European avant-gardist, etc. traditions--you > >get my > > > >idea I hope). And now this number represents approximately what > >percentage > > > >of all experimentalist poets? 1/2? 1/3? 1/10? Obviously, I don't > >know; > > > >you probably have just as good an idea as I do, if not better. > >Whatever > > > >the > > > >number though, the most conspicuous forms of cultural capital would = be > > > >availabe to only a very small percentage. However, a poet of this > >status > > > >might, for example, sell her/his private papers and manuscripts to a > > > >library--one very tangible form of capital. Ginsbeg, after all, > >managed to > > > >sell his papers to Columbia for a million dollars. Not a lot for, s= ay, > >an > > > >investment banker, of course--especially if one considers that it > > > >represents > > > >a dollar value accrued over a lifetime --but a windfall, nonetheless= , > >for a > > > >middle class poet. Ashbery, I'm certain, could have received > >approximately > > > >as much from Harvard. And the Language Poets? The 1G Language Poet= s > >are > > > >now about the age Ashbery was when he first began to receive serious > > > >critical attention. Their stock, meanwhile, has steadily risen in t= he > > > >academy. One could easily imagine a few--like Bernstein--being able= to > > > >sell > > > >their papers for quite a lot of money in, say, 10 years--not for a > >million > > > >dollars, but--well, I'll let you speculate. Added to this, a MacArt= hur > > > >grant, for some, is certainly more likely than not, and so on, and s= o > >on. > > > >Not to say, > > > >again, that the money I am talking about is extravagant, or that any= one > > > >would shape a career w/ this being some ultimate goal--though at som= e > > > >point, > > > >age 50 perhaps, it must begin to seem, if only in the back of the mi= nds > >of > > > >some very few, seductively attainable. > > > > > > > >To a slightly larger circle of experimentalist poets, there are form= s > >of > > > >cultural capital for which the common denominator is prestige. Bein= g > >able > > > >to publish whatever manuscripts one desires to publish (even if not = by > > > >commercial publishers), having one's poems in numerous anthologies, > >seeing > > > >your work mentioned in dissertations, reviews, and scholarly article= s, > > > >having a (relatively) large readership for the books that result fro= m > >this > > > >publicity, achieving financial security through the teaching gigs th= at > >come > > > >w/ a certain kind of fame, being in demand for readings, interviews, > >and so > > > >on--all of this is, perhaps, a pathetic ambition, but that's not the > >same > > > >thing as denying the reality of its allure. > > > > > > > >For yet another group of poets--again relatively few--these same > > > >satisfactions are intermittently attainable--particularly through > > > >institutional alliances with writing programs or university English > > > >departments, or slightly less definable sites such as St. Marks, or = the > > > >most > > > >prestigious small presses. (Which is to describe these affiliations > >too > > > >coldly since they are all lubricated, not only by self-interest, but > > > >through > > > >personal friendships, etc. Indeed, I don't doubt for a second that = it > >is > > > >some conception of poetry "itself," of ideas and aesthetic enthusias= ms, > > > >often pursued at considerable personal sacrifice, that constitute-- > >just as > > > >much as anything I have described--the reality of the poetry world. = My > > > >point, of course, is that there is no such thing as poetry "itself," > >that > > > >art is never > > > >autonomous, & that the poetry world, whatever else it is, is also a > >social > > > >space with a system of schemas for certain aesthetic practices which= , > >in > > > >turn, have power (of a certain kind) at stake.) > > > > > > > >Of course, for the majority of poets, there is no cultural capital t= o > >be > > > >obtained from poetry, except in the most meager forms--though, > > > >subjectively, > > > >individual poets may not *perceive* their irrelevance (here, of cour= se > >I am > > > >talking strictly in terms of status, w/out making any judgement on t= he > > > >value > > > >of the work; nor am I taking into account the tremendous enjoyment = & > > > >satisfaction that writing poetry can bring or any other of its real > > > >emotional or psychic benefits). > > > > > > > >You'll notice now, certainly, that, though the term "cultural capita= l" > > > >comes > > > >from Bourdieu, this post does not have the rigour etc. a more formal= , > >or > > > >theoretical, account would have. If it did, I would extend my remar= ks > >to a > > > >consideration of how these forms of cultural capital (in themselves > >benign) > > > >inevitably introduce unequal power relations among poets and a > >concommitant > > > >reproduction of certain aesthetic tendencies dominant, for example, = in > >the > > > >writing programs associated w/ exp poetry. This is something that > >would > > > >require careful research, among other things, to document, but I hav= e > >the > > > >strong sense that it would be suceptible to this kind of approach. = If, > > > >Stephen, you are asking me to do that here and now--for you & maybe = the > >3 > > > >others who have gotten this far in my post--you would be being very > > > >unreasonable. > > > > > > > >As for the term "conflict of values," it would implicate, pretty > >obviously, > > > >the various investments it is possible to make re such issues as the > >nature > > > >of subjectivity (& its representation in poetry), the objective > >character > > > >of > > > >language and its relationship to the world of things, the connection= of > >art > > > >to politics (overt? covert? transcendental?), and on and on--you do= n't > > > >need > > > >me to spell this out for you. But it is my impression that these > >conflicts > > > >no longer really *signify*. Open almost any alternative magazine an= d > >you > > > >will find a bizarre mix of contradictory styles (each of which is > >subtended > > > >by very different values). The editorial stance of these magazines = is, > >in > > > >almost all cases, impossible to determine. & when--very rarely-- t= he > > > >editor does (bravely) state her or his position, it is not unusual t= o > >find > > > >her/him dissing the very kind of poetry he/she has been publishing a= ll > > > >along, or that the book reviews (if it carries them) are extoling. = But > > > >this > > > >isn't bad faith, so much as the implicit recognition that a gold > >standard > > > >for aesthetic judgement and pleasure no longer exists. As a resul= t, > > > >alternative poetry > > > >simply proliferates haphazardly in a state of (almost) pure > >circulation. > > > >It > > > >is thus difficult to see how poetry can serve as an emancipatory or > > > >moralistic --or oppositional--discourse. Why are we "ideologically > >blind" > > > >to this? Because as Baudrillard puts it, "when things, signs , or > >actions > > > >are freed from their respective ideas, concepts, values, points of > > > >reference, origins, and aims, they embark upon an endless process of > > > >self-reproduction. Yet things continue to function long after the id= eas > > > >have > > > >disappeared, and they do so in total indifference to their own conte= nt. > > > >The > > > >paradoxical fact is that they function even better under these > > > >circumstances." > > > > > > > >As Warhol realized, fame (contingent, stupid, indifferent) remains t= he > >only > > > >point of reference or criteria for aesthetic (or other) judgements. > >And > > > >what I am saying is that the forms of cultural capital I have very > >briefly > > > >sketched, including fame, are the determinants of aesthetic value fo= r > > > >contemporary experimental poetry. As for how I feel personally abou= t > >this, > > > >or what I think is get-able from poetry? I suppose I have > >contradictory > > > >feelings--the nihilism of extremepositions gives me a rush, but I al= so > > > >deeply regret the implications of my ideas--so at times I side more = w/ > >a > > > >more sober skeptic like Thierry de Duveas as opposed to Baudrillard= . > > > >Professionally, too, I am both ambitious and indifferent. I've gone > >out of > > > >my way to begin to correspond with famous poets & then suddenly drop= ped > >all > > > >communication on my end--not because of any shifting feelings of min= e > >about > > > >their work, but because of a procrastinating and, whatever-else-it-i= s, > > > >temperment. > > > > > > > >--jacques > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > > > > > > >Cheers, > >David > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >David Kellogg Duke University > >kellogg@acpub.duke.edu Program in Writing and Rhetoric > >(919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 > >FAX (919) 660-4372 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ > > > > >=20 > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >=20 >=20 Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg=09=09=09Duke University=20 kellogg@acpub.duke.edu=09=09Program in Writing and Rhetoric (919) 660-4357=09=09 =09Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 660-4372=09=09http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 11:20:54 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: The Numbers (new title) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit When we steal books from other presses, we only take the finest. "Gordon Massman's decades-long sequence of poems, The Numbers, is a hydra-headed, incantatory howl honoring the appetite that gorges on spillage from the riptides of desire and its near-spiritual flesh-fruits. In other words, it's a good antidote to not feeling alive. " -- Jack Myers "Gordon Massman's poetry graphically speaks of love and passion, alienation and connection, the father-son relationship, the demons that haunt the human soul, and the spirit which at all costs overcomes thepower of emotional honesty--with all the gifts of an award-winning author. Simply stated, The Numbers is one of the finest collections of poems I have come across in many years." -- Charles Rowell, editor of Calalloo Includes poems which first appeared in: Another Chicago Magazine, Antioch Review, Artful Dodge, Atom Mind, Black Dirt, Confrontation, Connecticut Poetry Review, Contemporary Voice 2 (Canada), Cortland Review, The Fiddlehead (Canada), 5 AM, Flyway, The Georgia Review, Green Mountains Review, Greensboro Review, The Harvard Review, Hiram Poetry Review, Iron (UK), Karamu, Many Mountains Moving, Membrane, Men's Council Journal, The New York Quarterly, Left Curve, Libido, Lingo, The Literary Review, Old Crow Review, Paperplates (Canada), Pavement Saw, Penny Dreadful, Pleiades, Prairie Journal (Canada), Prism International (Canada), Quarter After Eight, Rattle, Response, Third Coast, Willow Springs, The Windless Orchard, Windsor Review (Canada), and Yellow Silk. Gordon Massman: The Numbers --Twenty years in the making & worth the wait-- 96 pages, 2-color heavy waterproof cover Super wide size for heavy poetry: Eight by Nine Special to listmembers, $10 including postage for US destinations, $11 for Canada, $12 for any & all others Paperback: ISBN 1-886350-88-4 Also available: Cloth Cover: ISBN 1-886350-89-2 please inquire for pricing Checks payable to: Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 Products are available through the publisher or through: Small Press Distribution / 1341 Seventh St. / Berkeley, CA 94710 / 510.524.1668 Pavement Saw Press is a not for profit corporation, any donations are greatly appreciated and are considered charitable tax donations under section 501(c) of the federal tax code. Funded by the Ohio Arts Council: A state agency that supports public programs in the arts. Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 18:08:32 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jill Stengel Subject: sf reading 2/13 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable it's that time again=E2=80=A6=20 synapse: second sundays at blue bar --presents-- norma cole and lisa jarnot february 13, 2000 blue bar is at 501 broadway, at kearney, in sf enter thru black cat restaurant, same address admission is $2, and goes to the readers Norma Cole is a poet, painter, and translator. Her recent poetry publication= s=20 are The Vulgar Tongue (a+bend press, 2000), Spinoza in Her Youth (A.bacus,=20 1999), and Desire and Its Double (Instress, 1998). Scout, a text/image work,= =20 is forthcoming as a CD-ROM from Krupskaya Editions. Her current translation=20 work includes Danielle Collobert's Journals, Anne Portugal's Nude (Green=20 Integer, forthcoming) and Crosscut Universe: Writing on Writing from France=20 (Burning Deck, forthcoming). A Canadian by birth, Cole migrated via France t= o=20 San Francisco where she has lived for the past 20 years. Poet Lisa Jarnot lives in New York and is the author of The Eightfold Path=20 (a+bend press, 2000), Heliopolis (rem press, 1998), Sea Lyrics (Soho Letter=20 Press, 1996), and Some Other Kind of Mission (Burning Deck, 1996). Her secon= d=20 full-length collection of poems, Ring of Fire, is forthcoming from Zoland=20 Books; and she is currently writing a biography of Robert Duncan. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 18:25:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Do not exhibit any longer in Austria! (fwd) Comments: To: Cyb , Fop , Cyberculture@cmhcsys.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 00:45:55 -0800 From: Robert Fleck To: nettime-l@bbs.thing.net Subject: Do not exhibit any longer in Austria! Nantes, 2.2.2000 Dear friends, As you know, Austria got today the first federal government since the end of World War Second with a big participation of nazis. I am born in this country, have lived there for 24 years, now writing for almost twenty years in austrian newspapers, studied political history (history of democracy...) in this country. Also through my familly, I know in detail the inside stories of the FPOe - a party founded in 1948, after the amnesty for the big nazi rulers, to be a legal cover for their activity. In 1986, Joerg Haider took over the party by a putsch with the aim to re-establish these origins, and to rehabilitate the nazi period in Austria, and if possible in Central Europe. The actual danger is much beyond Austria: in five years or, let's say, after the death of Vaclav Havel, whole Central Europe can burn in the same way like Austria now. The Czech Republic, Romania, Bulgaria, etc. are ready to follow this political choice. Regarding Austria, I am convinced since 1983, when Bruno Kreisky retired, the first Jewish chancelor in Central Europe since the birth of mankind, that this spectacular comeback of the Nazis must occure. For contemporary arts, I see only one possible choice: 1. NO LONGER EXHIBIT OR COOPERATE WITH AUSTRIA It has now become absolutely impossible, in moral terms, for any artist, galerist, museum curator or collector, to exhibit any longer in Austria, or to cooperate with any Austrian institution. There is only one question to ask: would you have exhibited in Nazi-Germany? Only with a complete boycott of the local artlife, we can help the Austrian artists to survive. The new government wants to show that "everything is as before", regarding individual liberty. Since 1995, all international known Austrian artists are under pressure by the party of Joerg Haider; anonymous phone calls, Nazi-signs on their cars, menaces to take their children - since five years, many internationally known artists in Vienna are only moving with their familly in the city inside of closed cars. As far as I know, most of the jewish community is also behaving like this, because they were constantly aggressed in the street. During the "100 Years" exhibition in 1998, the Vienna Secession had constantly nazi-signs, painted during the night, on the building; the Austrian federal police refused to consider these facts, saying that "this is normal". The next years will be very hard for Austrian artists. They all talked to me in the last years or months about leaving the country. Even half of the actual students at the Vienna Academy were thinking about leaving the country. For a writer, an intellectual, this is relatively easy. For an artist, to change the country is very complicated. The only way to help them, is to boycott the country itself. If you show to the Austrian population that the new government is outlaw, then - but ONLY then - the woters may consider during the next elections in 2003 that this may have been a bad choice for their country. 2. HELP THE AUSTRIAN ARTISTS AS INDIVIDUALS There can not be any preference for Austrian artists, but for you, international collegues, it is just about passing them a phone call or a mail from time to time, taking care of them in some sense, just hearing if they are ok and able to work and to exhibit. You all have very many contacts with Austrian artists. Staying in contact with people ouside can be very important for each of them. I was born in this country, and as one of very few still active international critics in this country, I have a heavy responsability. With the nomination of the new government, I announced publically to stop my collaboration for the big exhibition about the young art scene in Vienna (other curators: Paolo Herkenhoff, Maaretta Jaukkuri, Rosa Martinez) scheduled for Oct. 2000-April 2001 at Kunsthalle Vienna; to stop any collaboration with Austrian institutions; no longer going to Austria before the end of the nazi-participation in the government; trying to change citizenship. But I will stay as much as possible in contact with the Austrian artists, through the fact that I have a very close relationship with all artists generations there, from the generation of the pioneers of an independend art life (Maria Lassnig, Arnulf Rainer), to the young students. Best Wishes, Robert Fleck Robert Fleck post adress: ERBAN-Ecole Regionale des Beaux-Arts de Nantes Place Dulcie September F-44000 Nantes Tel +33 (0) 2 40 41 58 00 Fax +33 (0) 2 40 41 90 58 e-mail: FleckRob@aol.com (please change my post adress from F-22240 La Bouillie or F-75001 Paris # distributed via : no commercial use without permission # is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: majordomo@bbs.thing.net and "info nettime-l" in the msg body # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime@bbs.thing.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 18:44:06 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Erik Sweet Subject: "Tool a Magazine" Party Friday in NYCity @ Teachers and Writers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All! You are all invited to the celebrate the publication of the third issue of "Tool a Magazine! " 7PM @ Teachers and Writers, 5 Union Square West, New York City Friday February 4th, 2000 Featuring these fabulous readers: Anselm Berrigan, Pattie McCarthy, Elizabeth Young, Jordan Davis, Sean Killian, Charles Borkhuis, Mickey Jenkins, plus some surprise guests...!!! So come out and support independent publishing! From Erik and Lori, the editors. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 19:34:32 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: why write poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mark du charme, this is not a question i ever really addressed. i'm sure there are many different reasons for writing poetry. however, to quote a friend, "it is not what we say we believe in, but what effects our actions have." i thought that bourdieu was a necessary corrective for the attitude that will not or cannot consider the social conditions of artistic practice. let me answer more fully w/ a paraphrase to a response i gave to a similar question on another listserve: i don't think that what bourdieu is interested in is the poet's *intentions* per se--just that, if one is going to present a model of a social practice, intentions, motives, self-interest and so on are some of the things agents do act on. but in fact these things are finally what is indeterminable in his analysis. that is, the "disposition" of any individual agent cannot be predicted or wholly accounted for--he or she may in fact operate against his or her self-interests, calculate these self-interests in different ways, etc. b. is talking instead about the *statisitical* probability (or regularity) that an agent will, in situation X, under the conditions of y, etc, etc. (& w/ all of these factors being understood to work dynamically) will act in such and such a way. of course one could then go on, as i do, in feeling (a little) uncomfortable about the status of statistical (i.e. scientific) knowledge in his thinking. --jacques ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 13:52:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Nielsen, Aldon" Subject: Re: the ethics of reading other people's mail In-Reply-To: <97.121cbd6.25c44987@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >p.s. it will be very revealing (as this note probably won't be posted until >mon) to find out, in the meantime, *who* on the list thinks it's ethically >acceptable to read other people's mail & comment on it. > >--jacques hard to know how to respond to this question as several differing sorts of mail are involved -- We've had some discussion of this in the past, particulalry following Dale Smith's publication of emails from this list in his magazine without securing permission from any of the correspondents -- a move that needs to be remembered as people read varied anti-Buffalo -list comments made from certain quarters -- As I said at the time, I have to assume that anything I post to a listserv might very well reappear elsewhere on the net -- I do not believe people should routinely re-post such items when they are not simply informational, but I expect it to happen and write accordingly -- I also expect that anything I post directly to somebody might be quoted or copied by that person in a subsequent post -- which is already the case with hard copy letters -- Doesn't meant that I like it, just that I really should not be surprised if it happens -- On the other hand, I'd be truly disturbed if a private communication to one person were hijacked electronically by some third party -- It's not clear from what we've been told that anything along those lines has happened -- Has subpoetics ever posted any "rules" about reposting, as the poetics list has? I think the governing rule of any community on or off-line should be established by the membership of the community -- I read other people's mail every day in the course of my research -- most of them are deceased -- but not all -- a physical letter becomes the property of the recipient, while its contents may be covered by copyright -- If an analogy fits in the e-world, then it might well be considered unethical to repost an entire message without the sender's permission, but OK to quote a portion -- though I know there are many on-line who would prefer a more anarchic approach to all such questions and view the net as a place to contest the "ownership" of writing -- Lots of questions here -- none of which have ever been fully aired despite our frequent discussion of them -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 15:55:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: There are no things MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Those of you who haven't come across Edge may want to check it out http://www.edge.org/ It is one of the top discussion/debate sites for scientists and philosophers of science. The list of contributors is a who's who of "public figures" and best-selling authors of science-for-the- layperson, from Richard Dawkins, to Steven Pinker, to George Lakoff, to Marvin Minsky, even Brian Eno. The following is from Princeton astrophysicist Piet Hut, part of a current forum with dozens of responses by prominent folks to the question, (if I have it right), "What is the most underreported story of the decade?" Feed Magazine (which I remember Ron Silliman plugging a couple years ago) http://feed.org now has a partnership with Edge, and a number of the contributions to this forum can also be found there. Hut's response is wonderful in itself (though I suppose his response really doesn't exist, according to its own claims!) but also in the likeness of its proposals to some key ideas of Fenollosa via Pound. Or at least it seems suggestively similar in that regard to me: ------------------------------ There Are No Things That's right. No thing exists, there are only actions. We live in a world of verbs, and nouns are only shorthand for those verbs whose actions are sufficiently stationary to show some thing-like behavior. These statements may seem like philosophy or poetry, but in fact they are an accurate description of the material world, when we take into account the quantum nature of reality. Future historians will be puzzled by the fact that this interpretation has not been generally accepted, 75 years after the discovery of quantum mechanics. Most physics text books still describe the quantum world in largely classical terms. Consequently anything quantum seems riddled with paradoxes and weird behavior. One generally talks about the "state" of a particle, such as an electron, as if it really had an independent thing-like existence, as in classical mechanics. For example, the term `state vector' is used, even though its operational properties belie almost anything we normally associate with a state. Two voices have recently stressed this verb-like character of reality, those of David Finkelstein, in his book Quantum Relativity, and of David Mermin, in his article "What is quantum mechanics trying to tell us" [1998, Amer. J. of Phys. 66, 753]. In the words of the second David: `"Correlations have physical reality; that which they correlate does not.'" In other words, matter acts, but there are no actors behind the actions; the verbs are verbing all by themselves without a need to introduce nouns. Actions act upon other actions. The ontology of the world thus becomes remarkably simple, with no duality between the existence of a thing and its properties: properties are all there is. Indeed: there are no things. Two hundred years ago, William Blake scolded the physicists for their cold and limited view of the world, in terms of a clockwork mechanism, in which there was no room for spontaneity and wonder. Fortunately, physicists did not listen to the poet, and pushed on with their program. But to their own utter surprise, they realized with the discovery of quantum mechanics that nature exhibits a deeply fundamental form of spontaneity, undreamt of in classical physics. An understanding of matter as dissolving into a play of interactions, partly spontaneous, would certainly have pleased Blake. What will be next? While physics may still seem to lack a fundamental way of touching upon meaning and wonder, who is to say that those will remain forever outside the domain of physics? We simply do not know and cannot know what physics will look like, a mere few hundred years from now. There is an analogy with computer languages. Physicists have a traditional aversion to learning any other language than Fortran, with which they grow up, no matter how useful the other languages may be. But without ever parting from their beloved Fortran, it was Fortran that changed out from under them, incorporating many of the features that the other languages had pioneered. So, when asked how future physicists will program, a good answer is: we have not the foggiest idea, but whatever it is, it will still be called Fortran. Similarly, our understanding of the material world, including the very notion of what matter and existence is, is likely to keep changing radically over the next few hundred years. In what direction, we have no idea. The only thing we can safely predict is that the study of those wonderful new aspects of reality will still be called physics. PIET HUT is professor of astrophysics at the Institute for Advanced Study, in Princeton. He is involved in the project of building GRAPEs, the world's fastest special- purpose computers, at Tokyo University, and he is also a founding member of the Kira Institute. LINKS: Piet Hut's Home Page, GRAPEs; and Kira Institute. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 23:35:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Toni Simon and Nick Piombino Subject: titles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have found that if I leave a poem untitled for more than a few months, it becomes more and more difficult to imagine one. I've often resorted, as someone has mentioned, to using the first line as a title in these cases. When putting my first book together, however, I didn't think this was "authentic" enough, and I didn't think putting "Untitled" was cool either. So I just left the top blank. The publisher was then forced to use asterisks in places to mark that a poem had come to an end, if the top of the next poem was also left blank. On the other hand, some years ago I discovered that if I would just jot down a title I thought of, not having the time to write the poem, no matter how long I waited, some poem could be crystallized around that title, as if somehow the potential poem, or many potential poems, lay waiting to emerge from the larval state of the title. But then I got lazy and started letting the titles accumulate in my notebooks as objects in themselves. Nick Piombino ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:11:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: A Man, A Plan, A Canal - TOOL! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tool, A Magazine, A Party 7 pm Friday February 4 at Teachers & Writers 5 Union Square West . New York City To celebrate issue number three of Tool, A Magazine Eds. Erik Sweet & Lori Quillen Food - drink - pez Readings by: Anselm Berrigan . Charles Borkhuis Jordan Davis . Sean Killian . Steve Malmude Lori Quillen . Erik Sweet . Karen Weiser and many more! Treat yourself and treat your family PLUS: WINNERS OF THE ROBOT CONTEST ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:21:19 EST Reply-To: Irving Weiss Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Irving Weiss Subject: titles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain It's great to see how so many of us deal with the problems of titling poems: Leave untitled, use Untitled as title, use first words of poem, wait till poem ends and then find a succinct form to use as title. I've gone through all myself, but for visual poems, most of mine I leave untitled because I don't want to force their imagery in a direction chosen by me, the way a legend under a news photo detracts from the photographic immediacy. Other visual poems, I simply incorporate the title in the poem. I can also add a few things to the idea of titling. My Visual Voices: The Poem As a Print Object contains three poems whose subject is titling. 1. "Clock-Title Poem" demonstrates that a title above the work is the conventional place used for poems; a title below the work is conventional for works of art in frames; a title on the wall adjacent to the work is used for modern works of visual art, displays, dioramas, etc. In other words, poem title at 12 o'clock, display case title at 3 or 9 o'clock, visual artwork on wall, title at 6 o'clock. I have composed visual poems that I call Wallpoems because I want them to be exhibited where pictures usually are; they always begin with a line of words to stress that they are, basically, poems; and they continue with a mix of words and images. Since I think of them as poems, I choose to title them at the top of the page. 2. "Poem Invisible of the Seven Journeys through the Magnetic Zone between the Title and the Poem" This poem presupposes that there is always a gap of meaning between title and poem that the poet can do little about and that may bother the reader. There is an empty mental space between what the title promises and the poem fulfills. My poem offers possible *meanings* to fill the gap. We can NOT put up a title. Or we can title it Poem (or Untitled in the manner of visual artists). One wonders where abstract artists get their often elaborate titles from that are of no help to the viewer. 3. "Face to Face, Or, The Title as Field Commanders Assembling the Poem as a Body of Three Platoons With Rear Guard" If you print a poem upside-down so that it faces the title (or print the title-upside down), the arrangement demonstrates the commanding importance of the title's relation to the poem, calling it to order. The idea is that all titles call a poem to order. Irving Weiss http://members.tripod.com/~sialbach/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:02:20 PST Reply-To: gaufred@leland.stanford.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Silem Mohammad" Subject: poetry syllabus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi List, I'm going to be teaching a course at UC Santa Cruz this summer on Contemporary American Poetry, and I thought it might be useful/ interesting/ inflammatory/etc. to run a draft of my syllabus past anyone out there who has nothing better to do than my work for me. (BTW, I'm cross-posting this to both the subsub and Beefalo lists.) It's a five-week intensive course that meets three times a week for two and a half hours a day, and an obvious problem is fitting as much in as possible without overloading the students (most of whom will probably be pretty new to [insert your favorite adjective here] poetry). That goal may ultimately be impossible, but I'd love to get feedback on this. The selections here are largely but not exclusively from Paul Hoover's Norton anthology, _Postmodern American Poetry_. Since I want to keep the required texts affordable, I'm trying to limit them to Hoover and a photocopied course reader (although I'm tempted to require Ashbery's _Tennis Court Oath_, Hejinian's _My Life_, and Will Alexander's _Towards the Primeval Lightning Field_, among others, in their entirety). I'm trying also to limit the content of the reader to critical texts as much as possible (e.g. excerpts from Spicer's dictation lecture, Silliman's _New Sentence_, the passage from Jameson's _Postmodernism_ on Perelman's "China, " Bernadette Mayers' writing experiments, etc.), but there are some poems Hoover doesn't include that I just have to put in--Ashbery's "Daffy Duck in Hollywood," Coolidge's "Bee Elk," and so on. That much being said, I'd like especially to hear from people about what kinds of things they think should be taught about the poets I've listed, and even about what poets I should be whipped for omitting (or, I guess, for _not_ omitting) Of course, it's simply not possible to fit everyone in that I'd like to. I've reluctantly disincluded biggies like Robert Duncan, Denise Levertov, Ed Dorn, James Schuyler, Rosmarie Waldrop, Steve McCaffery, Johanna Drucker, David Bromige, David Antin-- you get the idea. Some of these are favorites of mine, and there might be persuasive arguments for putting some of them back; but then who gets the axe? Such power! Keep in mind that I've subtitled the course "from Beat to Postlanguage" (note: I definitely _will_ acknowledge the contested status of that second label), and that my more or less arbitrary starting point is poets who were fairly new in the '50s. Hence no readings from Stein, Zukofsky, etc.; though maybe I'll print up some handouts for the first day. I must admit to feeling a little guilty that the reading list seems kind of doctrinaire--like a kind of official unofficial verse culture primer. I've left out poets I'm crazy about, to be honest, simply because I don't know quite what to do with them (e.g., Diane Wakoski, James Tate, Russell Edson). Still, I feel pretty settled on the basic selection rationale, which largely consists of sampling the Don Allen _New American Poetry_ categories plus Second Gen New York School, Language, and whatever it is that has grown out of / around / on top of that. Another thing: you'll surely notice that with one or two exceptions, the poets on this syllabus are all grown up and already canonized at some level, either to the point of godhood (Ginsberg, Ashbery) or a slightly less Olympian but still "recognized" cult status (DiPalma, Elmslie). I've reserved a day-- yes, one measly day--at the end of the five weeks to look at some more recent and less known writers: that is, many of the persons who subscribe to this list. Rather than face the hideous prospect of singling out individual authors from among the vast foamy sea of talent out there, I thought I'd try something a little different: spend a whole session passing around little magazines and chapbooks that feature the turkiest of the young turks who are just dying to be converted into academic fossils before their time. Now this might seem like a cheap ploy to get free goodies (maybe on some dark, loathsome level of my unscrupulous psyche, it is--gasp), but anyone out there who would like to be a part of this great experiment might consider sending chapbooks of their work, or if they're editors, their magazines, etc. Consider it publicity. One editor has already expressed interest in possibly supplying several copies of a certain journal for the class, which is actually where I got the idea for this. I want to expose students not just to individual writers, but to a whole spectrum of material poetic production out there: self-publishing, small presses, broadsides, electronic formats (though I don't know if I'm going to be technologically capable of bringing web stuff to the classroom on a mass level), lo-fi and hi-res bookmaking, and so on. If anyone is interested in this hare-brained scheme, please b/c me for my address or further info or just to tell me what you think. Here's the syllabus: WEEK I Monday, June 19 Introduction (Lecture on Pound, Stein, Williams, Zukofsky, Oppen, Cage, etc.) Wednesday, June 21 Charles Olson Robert Creeley Jack Spicer Larry Eigner Friday, June 23 Allen Ginsberg Jack Kerouac Amiri Baraka WEEK II Monday, June 26 Frank O'Hara Barbara Guest Wednesday, June 28 John Ashbery Kenneth Koch Friday, June 30 Ron Padgett Kenward Elmslie Ted Berrigan Bernadette Mayer WEEK III Monday, July 3 Jackson MacLow Clark Coolidge Michael Palmer Wednesday, July 5 Ron Silliman Barrett Watten Robert Grenier Friday, July 7 Lyn Hejinian Leslie Scalapino Kathleen Fraser WEEK IV Monday, July 10 Susan Howe Hannah Weiner Joan Retallack Wednesday, July 12 Charles Bernstein Bob Perelman Bruce Andrews Friday, July 14 Nathaniel Mackey Rachel Blau DuPlessis Ray DiPalma WEEK V Monday, July 17 Will Alexander Myung Mi Kim Harryette Mullen Wednesday, July 19 Assorted poets: little magazines, small presses, chapbooks, web journals Friday, July 21 Poetry reading and cookies There ye have it. Cheers, K. --------------------------------- K. Silem Mohammad Santa Cruz, California (831) 429-4068 gaufred@leland.stanford.edu OR immerito@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 13:11:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lowther, John" Subject: Titlation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain or, What the hell to call this one ? "The process of titlization cannot be understood outside means of poetic production and by virtue of its hierachical placement always already assumes an ideologically determining role in the reception of the poem. Titlization is the process by which the subject is pinned to the ground of the superstructure by the assumptions the poem and it's arbitrary poetic-enabling subjectivity is blind to." H. Pistola Wonker _Titlizing Ends in the Poetic Economy; Exploitation and Domination at the End of the Century_ 1998 U of N X Press, p.8-14 [LARGE PRINT EDITION] sometimes i hate titles other times i dont sometimes i have a title and i wait for a long time before trying to write the poem that will appear under it sometimes this doesnt work and i still have the title and the poem gets another title othertimes it does work sometimes i too have titled things with the 1st line or the last line or parts of two or more lines or just a line that i liked in the middle somewhere once a poem of mine without a title was criticized by a friend of mine b/c they hated one line so i made that line the title of the poem sometimes i take lines from songs and make them into titles i dont know for sure but with single poems, not part of a larger sequence, i probably come up with the title after more often than before or during sometimes i do think of the title during the poem sometimes i do like the title to be like a spotlight othertimes i like it to obscure things or confuse things many times i dont know where thwe title comes from and after much thought about everything and doubt and 2nd guessing every line of the poem i'll spit out a title with no thought at all sometimes i use a single title for lots of poems and add a number (READING ONE, READING TWO... WREADING NINE etc) other times i dont add a number and every poem in the series is just a ____ (a "stoppage," of james sander's sequence "Poems for Wrestlers" etc) one time i wrote a poem with a very long title (it took 3 lines) for which the poem was ony two words but i lost this poem and now i dunno what it was anymore somebody i remember had a thing where the titles appeared at the end of the poem but i cant remember who that was --- i thought it was kinda cool i've thought about using pictures for titles but never gotten around to it ditto for producing a contents page for a "lost book" so that the titles wd have to stand alone with only their relation to other titles and the lengths suggested by the page numbers as a way of thinking about them i like poems without titles somebody on this thread mentioned how they seem to soak up the page around them --- this seems right to me randy prunty has a bunch of poems that are titled along these lines "untitled poem about _____________" with the blank filed with almost anything maybe because titles seem to suggest their import and relevance i've always tended to treat them frivolously ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 08:36:28 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Subject: Fw: e-POSTER: POETRY READING side|WORDS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Christopher Parr Date: Friday, 4 February 2000 00:50 Subject: Fwd: e-POSTER: POETRY READING side|WORDS > >>Announcement >>[please forward to interesting parties!] >> >>POETRY READING >>with associated sounds & gestures >>@ >>the elbow room (durham lane nr high street, auckland city) >> >>wed. 9 feb. 2K >> >>invited mike . POETRY READING . listenspeakdrinkitin >> >>side|WORDS >>side|WORDS >>side|WORDS >> >>chris PARR >>michele LEGGOTT >>john GERAETS >>wystan CURNOW >>hamish DEWE >>elizabeth WILSON >>tony GREEN > >>and OTHERS >> >>starting 6 pm (before the lawyers go home!) >>wed . 9 . feb . 2K >>the elbow room >> >> >>side|WORDS >>side|WORDS >>side|WORDS >> >>in conjunction with the elbow room, >>chiaroscuro gallery & the durham lane festival >>jan 18 - feb 11 2000 >> >>side|WORDS >>side|WORDS >>side|WORDS >> >>fromheretoin|FINITY!!!!!!!!... >> > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 15:14:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: next week/website Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Next week at the Poetry Project: Monday, Feb. 7th at 8 pm (sign-up at 7:30 pm) Our monthly open mike reading! Yippee! Wednesday, Feb. 9th Joe Elliot & Laurie Price Joe Elliot is the author of, most recently, Fourteen Knots and If It Rained Here. He is a mighty & benevolent force in the tiny press world as the co-publisher of Situations Press, the publisher of A Musty Bone, and the co-proprietor of Soho Letterpress. He is also the founder of the Biblio's/Zinc Bar reading series. He has work published at http://www.poetryproject.com/elliot.html. Laurie Price is the author of Going On Like This, Except for Memory, and Under the Sign of the House. She has exhibited a series of literary art objects (including a glass book) at Dentro Hacies Afuera in Mexico City. Friday, Feb. 11th at 10:30 pm Come Bring Yr Poems, C'mon Get Lucky! Erotic Open Mike Quickies with 2-minute time limit. Featured readers are Yolanda Wilkinson & the Manhattan Slam Team & London Slam Poets Tim Wells & Selena Saliva. and coming your way on Valentine's day My Bloody Valentine with readings by Elinor Nauen, Douglas Rothschild (who may be convinced to sing "La Vaca" as a special treat), Kara Rondina, Brian Kim Stefans, Jorge Clar, Richard O'Russa, Gillian McCain, Betsy Fagin, Bill Kushner, Tracy Blackmer AND MANY OTHERS!!! More information on all readings is available at http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.html All readings are $7, $5 for students and seniors, $3 for members. Admission at the door only. No advance tickets. The Poetry Project is wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. Call (212) 674-0910 for more information. *** New on the website: an innovation that will make life so much easier--an Author Index! Now, when you crave, say, a little Anselm Hollo, you can go to the author index at http://www.poetryproject.com/authors.html and look him up--alphabetically! or you can go directly to http://www.poetryproject.com/hollo.html for some new poems in advance of his reading here on March 29th. *** Public Service Announcements Tonight, Thursday, Feb. 3rd from 6:30-8:30 is Prageeta Sharma's book party for her new book BLISS TO FILL, freshly out from SubPress. Festivities at Ethan Cohen Fine Arts Gallery at 37 Walker Street NYC #212-625-1250. Music, food, fun and a few poems (or a lot, we hope!). Take the A,C,E or N,R, to CANAL STREET, walk one block to Walker. Sunday, February 6th at 6:37 pm at the Zinc Bar, 90 W. Houston, is a reading by Richard O'Russa & Kit Robinson. O'Russa is the author of Elastic Latitudes, parts of which are being performed by your computer right now, and Robinson is the author of, most recently, Democracy Blvd. Hosted by Brendan Rothschild and Douglas Lorber. Between Houston & LaGuardia. *** "I would like to be known as the person who takes a rarefied aesthetic and combines that with crude vaudeville--somehow, Mallarme a la W.C. Fields."--Richard Foreman *** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 01:14:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Fouhy Subject: Poets & OPEN MIKE Comments: To: "NCGiles@aol.com" , "newsroom@trader-pub.com" , Nico Suave , "Ogorman05@aol.com" , "Othercinsf@aol.com" , Patrick Gabridge , Paul Maass , "Paul-Victor L. Winters" , paul_lindstrom , PAULETTE , "PeterSpiro@aol.com" , Poetics List Administration , Poncet1212 , "radio@ncpr.org" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------46C033E37B1072CAFCD63172" --------------46C033E37B1072CAFCD63172 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit CREATIVE ARTS CAFÉ POETRY SERIES Celebrates Black History Month Poet Brenda Connor-Bey and Poet/ Storyteller/ Singer Karen Wilson Mt. Kisco, NY: The Creative Arts Café Poetry Series at the Northern Westchester Center for the Arts celebrates Black History Month with poet Brenda Connor-Bey and poet, storyteller and singer Karen Wilson. Brenda Connor Bey will read selections of her work Monday, Feb. 7th at 7:30 PM. Karen Wilson will perform selections of poetry and songs, including her original work, Monday, Feb. 28th at 7:30 PM. A reception, book signing and open mike follow each reading. Brenda Connor-Bey is an award-winning poet and fiction writer and a successful teaching artist. She is co-founder of New Renaissance Writers Guild, founder of Men Wem Writers Workshop and a former member of the Literary Advisory Panel at New Rochelle Public Library. She’s a former member of ‘nuff said!, a group of African Americans employed by Kraft General Foods in White Plains, who found they had more to say than just marketing jargon. Brenda is currently a teaching artist through the Westchester Arts Council visiting Artist’s Program, the Herbert Mark Newman Theater Arts-in-Education program, the Mid-Fairfield Child Guidance Center C.H.O.I.C.E.S. after School Program, the Taconic Correctional Facility for Women, the PROMISES after School program in Ossining, and the Neuberger Museum Artists in the Schools program. She is the recipient of a New York Foundation for the Arts Fellowship for Fiction, a NYS CAPS award for poetry, and four PEN awards for fiction and non-fiction. She is also a MacDowell and YADDO Fellow. Her poetry and fiction have appeared in numerous anthologies and literary journals. Brenda’s first collection of fiction and poetry is entitled Thoughts of An Everyday Woman/An Unfinished Urban Folktale. She has completed a collection of poetry, Crossroad of the Serpent and a children’s book How Boy With Flattened Face Got His New Name. Currently, she is working on a novel, The House on Blackwell Lane. Formerly an adjunct professor of creative writing at Marymont Manhattan College, she has also taught creative writing and its process at the Writers’ Institute in Fairfield, CT. Karen Wilson is the recipient of a BRIO Fellowship from the Bronx Council of the Arts. She is storyteller -in- residence through Arts in Education at Elizabeth Morrow School in Englewood, NJ. She is a performer with wide appeal, enthralling children, teenagers and adults alike. Her performances include Ain’t I A Woman: African American Women Reflect American History, for the “Meet the Artist Series” at Lincoln Center in New York City; Celebrate the Earth (ATIS) at the Children’s Museum in Manhattan; and Songs, Stories and Whatnot for Grownups at Speakeasy in NYC. She has also created works and performed for The Harlem School of the Arts and Clearwater’s Hudson River Revival. In 1998, NWCA featured Karin Wilson’s performance of Beauty and the Blues -the Prose and Poems, an adaptation of her popular performance, Beauty and the Blues, which premiered at the Hudson River Museum in February 1997. Through songs and stories, Karen Wilson recreates the realities of African people: whether on their home continent or as they and their descendants moved to new homes across the Western Hemisphere. In the way that African fabrics embrace many colors and African musics embrace many sounds, Karen embraces many different cultures in her storytelling. Her stories touch issues of family and community, relationships in conflict, the importance of responsibility and the power of change. Come and listen: your laughing and clapping will make you part of the event in true African fashion. You may even find yourself singing in one of Karen’s thirteen singing languages right along with her! Karen is a performer with wide appeal, enthralling children, teenagers and adults alike. Her teaching and performance have been acclaimed in diverse settings as: New York City’s Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts and its Central Park Zoo; The Harlem School of the Arts and Lady of the Lake Family Camp in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho; The Children’s Museum of Manhattan, The Museum of Fine Arts in Ponce, Puerto Rico, and Clearwater’s Hudson River Revival. Suggested donation is $7.00; $5:00 seniors and students. Coffee, tea and desserts included. The Creative Arts Café Poetry Series is located in the art gallery of the Northern Westchester Center for the Arts, 272 N. Bedford Road, Mt. Kisco. For a schedule of readings and direction to NWCA, call 914 241 6922. --------------46C033E37B1072CAFCD63172 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
CREATIVE ARTS CAFÉ POETRY SERIES
Celebrates Black History Month
Poet Brenda Connor-Bey and Poet/ Storyteller/ Singer Karen Wilson

Mt. Kisco, NY:  The Creative Arts Café Poetry Series at the Northern Westchester Center for the Arts celebrates Black History Month with poet Brenda Connor-Bey and poet, storyteller and singer Karen Wilson.  Brenda Connor Bey will read selections of her work Monday, Feb. 7th at 7:30 PM.  Karen Wilson will perform selections of poetry and songs, including her original work, Monday, Feb. 28th at 7:30 PM.  A reception, book signing and open mike follow each reading.

Brenda Connor-Bey is an award-winning poet and fiction writer and a successful teaching artist. She is co-founder of New Renaissance Writers Guild, founder of Men Wem Writers Workshop and a former member of the Literary Advisory Panel at New Rochelle Public Library.  She’s a former member of ‘nuff said!, a group of African Americans employed by Kraft General Foods in White Plains, who found they had more to say than just marketing jargon. Brenda is currently a teaching artist through the Westchester Arts Council visiting Artist’s Program, the Herbert Mark Newman Theater Arts-in-Education program, the Mid-Fairfield Child Guidance Center C.H.O.I.C.E.S. after School Program, the Taconic Correctional Facility for Women, the PROMISES after School program in Ossining, and the Neuberger Museum Artists in the Schools program.  She  is the recipient of a New York Foundation for the Arts Fellowship for Fiction, a NYS CAPS award for poetry, and four PEN awards for fiction and non-fiction.  She is also a MacDowell and YADDO Fellow.  Her poetry and fiction have appeared in numerous anthologies and literary journals.  Brenda’s first collection of fiction and poetry is entitled Thoughts of An Everyday Woman/An Unfinished Urban Folktale.  She has completed a collection of poetry, Crossroad of the Serpent and a children’s book How Boy With Flattened Face Got His New Name. Currently, she is working on a novel, The House on Blackwell Lane. Formerly an adjunct professor of creative writing at Marymont Manhattan College, she has also taught creative writing and its process at the Writers’ Institute in Fairfield, CT.

Karen Wilson is the recipient of a BRIO Fellowship from the Bronx Council of the Arts. She is storyteller -in- residence through Arts in Education at Elizabeth Morrow School in Englewood, NJ. She is a performer with wide appeal, enthralling children, teenagers and adults alike.  Her performances include Ain’t I A Woman: African American Women Reflect American History,  for the “Meet the Artist Series” at Lincoln Center in New York City;  Celebrate the Earth (ATIS) at the Children’s Museum in Manhattan; and Songs, Stories and Whatnot for Grownups at Speakeasy in NYC. She has also created works and performed for The Harlem School of the Arts and Clearwater’s Hudson River Revival. In 1998, NWCA featured Karin Wilson’s performance of Beauty and the Blues -the Prose and Poems,  an adaptation of her popular performance, Beauty and the Blues, which premiered at the Hudson River Museum in February 1997. Through songs and stories, Karen Wilson recreates the realities of African people: whether on their home continent or as they and their descendants moved to new homes across the Western Hemisphere. In the way that African fabrics embrace many colors and African musics embrace many sounds, Karen embraces many different cultures in her storytelling. Her stories touch issues of family and community, relationships in conflict, the importance of responsibility and the power of change. Come and listen: your laughing and clapping will make you part of the event in true African fashion.  You may even find yourself singing in one of Karen’s thirteen singing languages right along with her! Karen is a performer with wide appeal, enthralling children, teenagers and adults alike.  Her teaching and performance have been acclaimed in diverse settings as: New York City’s Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts and its Central Park Zoo; The Harlem School of the Arts and Lady of the Lake Family Camp in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho; The Children’s Museum of Manhattan, The Museum of Fine Arts in Ponce, Puerto Rico, and Clearwater’s Hudson River Revival.

Suggested donation is $7.00; $5:00 seniors and students.  Coffee, tea and desserts included.

The Creative Arts Café Poetry Series is located in the art gallery of the Northern Westchester Center for the Arts, 272 N. Bedford Road, Mt. Kisco. For a schedule of readings and direction to NWCA, call 914 241 6922.
  --------------46C033E37B1072CAFCD63172-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:20:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: [BRC-ANN] Two Million Behind Bars by Mid-February (fwd) Comments: To: Cyb , Fop MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:05:44 -0500 From: Vince Schiraldi To: brc-announce@lists.tao.ca Subject: [BRC-ANN] Two Million Behind Bars by Mid-February Justice Policy Institute For Immediate Release February 1, 2000 Contact: Vincent Schiraldi/Jason Ziedenberg, (202) 678-9282 TWO MILLION AMERICANS WILL BE BEHIND BARS BY FEBRUARY 15 Study posted at Washington, DC -- The Justice Policy Institute reports that the U.S. Prison and Jail population will top two million for the first time on February 15, 2000 the day after the nation celebrates Valentine's Day. Using the most up to date Justice Department statistics and trends, the Institute estimates that the U.S. now has the world's largest incarcerated population, and highest incarceration rate. Just six weeks into the new millennium, America has earned the distinction of having a quarter of the world's prison population, despite having less than 5% of the world's population. "There is little to celebrate this Valentines day," stated Vincent Schiraldi, Director of the Justice Policy Institute. "The ascendance of prisons as our decade's major public works project and social program is a sad and costly legacy." JPI's report, "The Punishing Decade: Prison and Jail Estimates at the Millennium," shows that the imprisoned population grew at a faster rate during the 1990s than during any decade in recorded history. America entered the 1990s with 1,145,300 inmates in its jails and prisons. December 31, 1999, there were an estimated 1,983,084 adults behind bars, and by the end of the year there will be 2,073,969. The prison growth during the 1990s dwarfed the growth of any previous decade; it exceeded the prison growth of the 1980s by 61%, and is nearly 30 times the average prison population growth of any decade prior to the 1970s. The Institute estimated that $39 billion will be spent to operate America's prisons and jails by yearend 1999, a figure which will grow to $41 billion by yearend 2000. The Institute also reported that, in 1995, states around the country spent more building prisons than building universities for the first time and that 2/3 of those incarcerated in prison and jail (approximately 1.2 million inmates) are imprisoned for non-violent offenses. "Halfway through black history month, our prisons and jails represent the sad reality that one out of three young African American males are under some form of criminal justice control," stated Jason Ziedenberg, Policy Analyst at the Institute. "Two million prisoners is too many, and the nation must find alternatives to incarceration to solve America's pressing social problems." -30- The Washington, DC-based Justice Policy Institute is a policy development and research body which promotes effective and sensible approaches to America's justice system. JPI is a project of the non-profit Center on Juvenile and Criminal Justice. The study is posted at . -------------------------------------------------------------------------- BRC-ANNOUNCE: Black Radical Congress - General Announcements/Alerts -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subscribe: Email "subscribe brc-announce" to -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unsubscribe: Email "unsubscribe brc-announce" to -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Digest: Email "subscribe brc-announce-digest" to -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Archive: http://netnoir.egroups.com/group/brc-announce (When accessing for the first time, set the "Delivery Mode" to "Read On The Web Only") -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Questions/Problems: Send email to -------------------------------------------------------------------------- www.blackradicalcongress.org | BRC | blackradicalcongress@email.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:47:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Tedd J. Mulholland" Subject: The APG Manifesto MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fellow listers: As one of the many unofficial spokespersons for the APG, I have been elected (by a democratic vote) to post this, The APG Manifesto, to the list. It is a little something we threw together over pizza last week. Some members were not present at last weeks meeting, so we waited till all membership had chance to view, alter, and sign this document (members residing outside of Atlanta were express mailed the manifesto) before posting it for public scrutiny. I, of course, helped to draft and then signed the document and stand by its proclamations, but I am mostly the messenger in regards to its posting (please keep this in mind). The APG: Radical Ideas - Not Dead Poetics The Atlanta Poets Group (APG) was launched as an organization by poets who rejected the popular poetics of the mainstream which helped facilitate the formation of conglomerate publishers and booksellers. Instead of worrying about our media image we have returned to our poetic roots. This manifesto sets out our proposals on key issues based on that poetic philosophy. The Poetic Alternative The APG stands for the creation of an open poetic and is against all forms of limitism and vested interest. The hallmark of the APG is the faith it places in poets and communities. The APG wants everyone, not just the educated and the most able, to have the maximum opportunity to express themselves poetically. By rejecting limitism and vested interests, the APG has historically been a generator of new poetics; poetics often adopted much later by others. We are proud to continue that tradition and in this manifesto are many radical ideas that contrast sharply with the bland consensus so prevalent in Atlanta today and furthered by the works of the mainstream. Not The Workshop The Apg does not seek merely to adopt a radical position between workshop poetics and avant-gardism. Instead we try to apply new and radical poetic principles and are not afraid when this leads us to unconventional conclusions. What is a Radical Poetic? Both workshop poetics and avant-gardism talk about "the poetics of the individual", but they mean different things by that phrase. Workshop poetics sees poetics in a narrow economic/social term. Avant-gardism has a much broader view of poetics. Cooperative ventures, member participation and community involvement are all on the APG agenda. Our aim is to spread poetics to give people real influence over the ideas that affect them. However, we also believe that the process of spreading poetics must not be paternalistic and that new structures must evolve in response to real needs rather than being imposed from above. A consequence of our view of poetics is an attitude of tolerance towards the unemployed poet , travelling poets, gay poets, single mother poets and many other poets who have found to their cost that the mainstream view of poetics does not include them. Socialistic Poetics Socialistic poetics aim to achieve poetry through planning and regulation. Because this involves action on behalf of the disadvantaged poets of society it has always had the sympathy of the APG. But the APG believes that state planning is usually ineffective and that poetics are not the prime objective. We aim for a good standard of poetics for all. The APG does believe strongly in equal poetics and thus has some aims in common with socialists. The Danger of Tyrannical Poetics As our society becomes more aggressive and less stable, authoritarian solutions can seem attractive. This is an increasing problem, not just in Atlanta but around the world. Fear leads to demands for quick action and avant-gardism rather than a carefully thought out poetic. Simplistic solutions, the scapegoating and oppression of certain poetics and the stifling end product of criticism are the inevitable results. Against this the APG's quest for poetics leads us to a love for reason and debate. Our poetic ensures that decisions are made after due debate and deliberation, on the basis of good ideas, and with better protection against the abuses of criticism. A Practical Approach to Poetics We are not armchair theorists or poets. The ideas and proposals in this manifesto have been worked out and debated by members of the APG on the basis of their experience, drawn from many different walks of life and from active poeting. All we ask is that you read what we have to say, consider it with an open mind and, if you agree with the principles of our poetic, join us! Making Peace The best means of achieving collective poetics is by working to resolve conflicts through negotiation at an early stage (before any shooting starts). The APG Proposes Basic changes in modern poetics to make them more clearly impartial and less a tool of the mainstream The APG Opposes The international poetry trade The APG believes that we should be more flexible and open minded in our approach to poetics. We advocate a transfer of poetic commitment and money from the mainstream to experimental poetics. By experimental poetics we mean the techniques of arbitration, reconciliation work in areas of potential conflict, rebuilding the social and poetic structure of areas where a fragile peace has been established and study of the causes and resolution of poetics. The development and maintenance of poetics is also important: it is not by chance that there has rarely been a war between two poetic communities. Experimental poetics have tended to be ignored, leading to situations developing with no action being taken until the options have become very limited (as in the case of The Spanish American War). A Stronger Poetic We are committed to strengthening poetics, giving it new powers to actively resolve disputes, to enforce the local community, to promote good living and to prevent substantial damage to good living. To do this however, it must be seen as impartial. We are the only poetic group to advocate the addition new poetic agencies to promote poetics and poetic protection. There is now real hope for poetics in the world if early stage intervention by the APG can be made acceptable. The APG is committed to the abandonment of the Trident system and all inter-continental ballistics and other weapons of indiscriminate destruction. We wish to maintain experimental poetics and professional, well equipped and well trained poets good enough to defend poetics as a legitimate interest. We would always insist on every avenue of diplomacy, non-military action and negotiation being exhausted before embarking on military action. -------------------------------------------------------------- Get free personalized email from GTE at http://www.gtemail.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 18:26:32 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: Re: Titles In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I thought that was by Tom Clark, back when he wrote them? At 09:07 AM 02/02/2000 -0500, you wrote: >like Frank O'Hara's Poem, Poem, Poem, Poem, Poem, and Poem? > >----------------------------------- >| Gwyn McVay gmcvay@patriot.net | >| | >| http://patriot.net/~gmcvay/ | >----------------------------------- > > k e n n i n g a newsletter of contemporary poetry, poetics, and nonfiction writing http://www.avalon.net/~kenning 418 Brown St. #10, Iowa City, IA 52245, USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 19:44:36 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jill Stengel Subject: Re: speak magazine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit all-- speak...good. speak, despite big readership, always abt to go down the tubes b/c of no $. recommend: subscribe if you like speak--they claim that's their biggest problem. jill ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:54:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Kelley Subject: Re: Titles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Paintings are funny like that too, do you paint the title in the painting? > What is the status of a little card with the title on it on the wall, or a > number on the wall relating to a title in a catalogue? Is it part of the > "work" or not? the card on the wall. there for viewer orientation, and best not too precious or obvious, unless blatantly utilitarian. my favorite cards include materials, as well as artist's name & date. the visceral captions that read "graphite, house paint, chalk, vaseline, sand." probably best not to take the card too seriously, read in too much "meaning." just there to make people feel a bit more secure & comfortable by offering the semblance of "context"-- nothing (in my book) wrong with that. my titles generally whatever I call the poem to myself when I'm writing it. > > I'd like to hear a symphony orchestra stand up & say the title in unison > before they play the music. > me too! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 11:53:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: MLA Call: Worldwide Poetry on the Web Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" CALL FOR PAPERS / MLA (Washington, D.C., 2000) Worldwide Poetry on the Web We are seeking proposals for brief informative talks about poetry's relation to new technologies in the following areas: literary and interdisciplinary research, textual editions, archival scholarship, publishing, editing, new poetry forms, and issues of translatability, accessibility, and exchange across boundaries of geography, language, and institutions. With your proposal, please include a list of any equipment you would need for your presentation. Send proposals by March 10 to: Susan Stewart Chair, Poetry Division of MLA Bennett Hall, Department of English University of Pennsylvania Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19104 (stewart@english.upenn.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 15:49:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Orange Subject: Power poetix MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII mark p, mark d -- you both point out some weaknesses in bourdieu's theories and i agree with you in some respects. it seems entirely machiavellian to claim that all writing purports to nothing more than besting one's rivals. to this extent i may have misrepresented bourdieu; certainly his critics would charge him with maintaining this as the bottom line, and i'm not sure what the proper response would be. if tho there is something more to it, another answer to the question "why write," my sense of bourdieu leads me to suggest the following. first, with mark d's sense of writing as a nonproductive activity that partakes in a critique of utilitarian and capitalist values, bourdieu would agree. his argument is that this commences in the mid-late 19th century with the emergence of an autonomous aesthetic field that defines itself in opposition to the dominant cultural values. now what such an oppositional stance achieves -- how it might answer the questions "what else there is" or "why write" by saying "it does x, y, z, etc.", -- is not to my mind sufficiently elaborated in bourdieu. so if in this sense bourdieu is not "helpful" to poets, i concede the point. second, the notion of habitus -- the way you carry yourself in the world, a set of dispositions that is both innate and culturally determined -- inclines a poet to have and develop a "feel for the game." in other words a poet when posed the question "why write" is already disposed to respond in certain ways and presumably continues to develop further that response. my invocation of "naivety" was not at all in an accusatory mode but rather as a limit case, a practical impossibility, i.e. the poet who writes with no preconceived sense of poetic value and sends out work either entirely indiscriminately or not at all. my point is that *everyone* has a feel for the game, which is manifest whenever one writes one (kind of) poem instead of another, choses to submit one poem for publication over another, or to one journal over another, reads/buys one journal over another, befriends or otherwise engages with other poets, etc. and i also think that everyone is *conscious*, to some degree, of such questions as well. what bourdieu would go on to claim is that those who have a more nuanced awareness of the above are more likely to "succeed" i.e. accrue and maintain symbolic capital -- arguably, no doubt. one very real way of seeing literal and/or symbolic capital at work in poetic production is in terms of networks and networking, no? i mean, you can bemoan and decry their existence and refuse to engage them, or go the other way and enslave yourself to them, neither of which i think is particularly healthy. but i can't see mark p's claim that such considerations "lead nowhere," are "very uninteresting and unhelpful, either to readers and poets," or do not clarify "what is actually going on." true, cultural capital, like any other concept, risks being turned into a knee-jerk, and is always only as useful as the kinds of questions it allows you to answer and then turn into further questions. toril moi has a good essay in the december 1997 modern language quarterly about why u.s. academic criticism thus far has *not* produced truly bourdieuian results in part b/c of the difficulty of obtaining the "empirical evidence" that they seem to require. so if you wanted to appraise the symbolic or cultural capital of, say, a periodical, a cool thing to have might be circulation information like who was actually a subscriber and/or how many were sold in what bookstores, etc. such info is not easily obtained, tho, but i'd still like to see it before i decide whether it leads anywhere or is interesting or useful. a much better example i think is a critique of the long-standing division in contemporary american poetry (since at least Allen's NAP) between academic/mainstream and experimental/alternative poetries; one real way to demonstrate how the landscape has changed in forties years to the effect that such a distinction doesn't hold much water anymore is to make the case that a significant number of emerging practitioners whom one might align in the experimental camp actually hold university accreditation. the schwarz/stroffolino/jarnot anthology attests to this in a way that requires us to rethink the distinction. which to me is interesting and useful in and of itself and for what it suggests might actually be going on. bests, t. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 20:43:24 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: power poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Maria, First, yes, I am talking about the literary field--or more exactly the field of experimental poetry. Why? Because I am interested to know how a poem, an artwork--something in & of itself *valueless*--is seen to acquire *value*--what amounts finally to a *belief* in that value--but which is, thus, in some sense, only an *illusory* value --a fetish, perhaps. But this is, in itself, also a *post*literary interest, no? Only coming from the *opposite* direction as you. Nor does the contest for symbolic capital ever--or only rarely--occur with any particular degree of conscious strategy, or calculation. The logic of the game excludes this, since the game itself is based on an *illusion*. Nor would your writing for your "sanity" at all *exclude* you from the game because the game is played by agents who match their own dispositions (unique dispositions, such as temperment, or general dispositions, such as gender, educational status, etc.) to the possible positions (of status, etc.) available in the field at any one time. Bourdieu's point is that an agent will most often make those (what to him/her *seem* entirely disinterested) aesthetic choices, judgements, values which will most successfully match his/her unique disposition to the social trajectory to which he/she aspires. In fact, to some extent, one might say that an identification with the extra literary (which I share, by the way, & by which I mean to implicate myself as well) is merely a fantasy "projection of relations *internal* to the field" (Bourdieu). jacques ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:54:06 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: pete spence Subject: Re: Titles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed my titles generally >whatever I call the poem to myself when I'm writing it. titles to me limit the possible ways of reading a poem , the best way to title something is as a clue to what its not about,, i dunno//pete ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 15:10:09 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Subject: Re: success MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To the Poetics-list: Well, I'm glad that Jacques Debrot's message below has a more civil tone than the backchannel version & it's follow up -- which of course I cant properly forward to - or discuss on - this list. It makes replying seem less of a challenge to a word-battle between irate doggie male egos. But it does require more essay-like space than I believe this medium happily bears with. Be advised, this is quite long: you will know where your delete button is, dear reader. I have been giving some thought to the problem of the place of the "pleasures of reading" within a description & analysis of social structures -- as they affect "the arts" -- the scare-quotes relate to Maria Damon's note to-day on post- or extra-literary writing, where the term "poetry" becomes perhaps somewhat loosened from its usual literary moorings. The centre of this problem is "taste". It pervades enlightenment criticism: it is stated influentially by Immanuel Kant; it is a central issue for Greenbergian criticism; & it pervades also Thierry de Duve's account of Duchamp (Kant after Duchamp, Ch. VIII), even as he substitutes "art" for "taste" as the 1960s term in his rereading of Kant. I am not thinking of reading as an exercise of Kantian Taste -- which in its context is actually a neo-classical problem of the ideal as manifested in representations of the human form -- often as if it had no (back)ground & was often made with no regard for the construction of the representation in or by a medium. However there is a simplifying tendency (I've seen anthropologists do it with "art" a lot & it's also apt to occur in psychology & sociology) to suppose that the "reading" of texts, images & artefacts is a matter of fitting them into a pre-existing discourse on social structures by way of a kind of illustration, taking little or no notice of the relation between contents & medium. Anything else is by-passed as "subjective aesthetics" as supposedly practised in the study & criticism of European arts. However, anyone who has ever studied the arts closely will know that to substantiate any judgements there is an elaborate & complex preliminary phase of working. In most critical processes one would suppose a very close attention to how the medium is worked, how it engages a reading with its representations & how it engages with its interrogations & uses & discoveries in & of the medium. This may take a long time -- & in that time the Subject is submitting itself to the enigmatic & hitherto unknown otherness of the poem or picture - whatever -- being looked into. That is where I find "the pleasure of reading". If it does lead, as it sometimes does, tho slowly, to some insight into the workings of the artwork, then writing about that becomes another kind of pleasure. The process I am talking about requires something of "negative capability" & it cannot be hurried or shortcut. But if it isnt done or shortcut badly -- then the value of any judgement made on it is diminished in value. In other words, the subject is busily engaged, but not at the level of "pleasure & pain" as in the Kantian model. There is no problem about seeing such a subjective process as producing something that can be incorporated into a theory of cultural capital. But it is not at the level of a correlation of "Taste" (tendencies of groups as in fashion or discourse diminished to slogans & vagueness of feeling) with "social levels". (This is not, plainly, an attempt to overturn Pierre Bourdieu's sociology: that wd be way beyond the scope of what I'm attempting here). What is to be watched out for is the claim that criticism is all subjective in a pejorative sense, meaning entirely arbitrary. Or that "poetry" is likewise subjective & arbitrary & therefore entirely to be disposed of by reference to its supposed "social conditioning". i.e. the scoial and/or economic conditions which are conceived of as enveloping them -- becoming causes while the arts become effects. This ensures a certain capture of the territory of arts & critical discourse by sociological discourse no doubt. I apologise for the unwonted length of this as e-mail. To be properly intelligible what I am saying here needs development at greater length than this. best Tony Green ----Original Message----- From: Jacques Debrot To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Friday, 4 February 2000 13:03 Subject: success >Glad you weren't ble to delete my post! I would love to be able to say I >*deliberately* had you looking in the wrong place. > >But you also write: > >"Sadly in broad spectrum treatments of > > art-as-social-phenomenon, the > > pleasures of reading for readers have > > to be disregarded." > >Like you, I don't want to disregard my own subjective response to >literature--to do that would be hypocritical, no matter to what extent my >tastes are socially determined. But it seems to me that the danger of a >corrective is *not* from the point of view of "the pleasures of reading." >That's the doxa. But rather than emotive arguments appealling to >everyone's--including my own prejudices & self interest--can you *actually & >persuasively counter* Bourdieu's attempt to account for the social conditions >of art? > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 19:34:26 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathy Lou Schultz Subject: Re: poetry syllabus Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Ah, this is a can of worms to be sure, but I have to publicly make a pitch for including Teresa Hak Kyung Cha's _Dictee_. I've taught this text to "beginning" and "intermediate/advanced" students at San Francisco State with excellent results. Will help to further discussions about definitions of "poetry," the "visual arts," "identity," "race," "Nationhood." Can be used to many useful pedagogical ends -- plus it's just a fascinating text. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Kathy Lou Schultz Editor & Publisher Lipstick Eleven/Duck Press http://www.duckpress.org 42 Clayton Street San Francisco, CA 94117-1110 ---------- >From: "K.Silem Mohammad" >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: poetry syllabus >Date: Thu, Feb 3, 2000, 10:02 AM > >Hi List, > >I'm going to be teaching a course at UC Santa Cruz >this summer on Contemporary American Poetry, >and I thought it might be useful/ interesting/ >inflammatory/etc. to run a draft of my syllabus >past anyone out there who has nothing better to do >than my work for me. (BTW, I'm cross-posting >this to both the subsub and Beefalo lists.) > >It's a five-week intensive course that meets >three times a week for two and a half hours a day, >and an obvious problem is fitting as much in >as possible without overloading the students >(most of whom will probably be pretty new >to [insert your favorite adjective here] poetry). >That goal may ultimately be impossible, but >I'd love to get feedback on this. > >The selections here are largely but not exclusively >from Paul Hoover's Norton anthology, >_Postmodern American Poetry_. Since I want to keep >the required texts affordable, I'm trying to limit >them to Hoover and a photocopied course reader >(although I'm tempted to require Ashbery's >_Tennis Court Oath_, Hejinian's _My Life_, >and Will Alexander's _Towards the Primeval >Lightning Field_, among others, in their entirety). >I'm trying also to limit the content of the reader >to critical texts as much as possible (e.g. excerpts >from Spicer's dictation lecture, Silliman's >_New Sentence_, the passage from Jameson's >_Postmodernism_ on Perelman's "China, " >Bernadette Mayers' writing experiments, etc.), >but there are some poems Hoover doesn't include >that I just have to put in--Ashbery's "Daffy Duck >in Hollywood," Coolidge's "Bee Elk," and so on. > >That much being said, I'd like especially to hear >from people about what kinds of things they >think should be taught about the poets I've listed, >and even about what poets I should be whipped >for omitting (or, I guess, for _not_ omitting) >Of course, it's simply not possible to fit everyone in >that I'd like to. I've reluctantly disincluded biggies like >Robert Duncan, Denise Levertov, Ed Dorn, >James Schuyler, Rosmarie Waldrop, Steve McCaffery, >Johanna Drucker, David Bromige, David Antin-- >you get the idea. Some of these are favorites >of mine, and there might be persuasive >arguments for putting some of them back; >but then who gets the axe? Such power! > >Keep in mind that I've subtitled the course "from Beat >to Postlanguage" (note: I definitely _will_ acknowledge >the contested status of that second label), and >that my more or less arbitrary starting point is poets >who were fairly new in the '50s. Hence no readings >from Stein, Zukofsky, etc.; though maybe I'll print >up some handouts for the first day. > >I must admit to feeling a little guilty that >the reading list seems kind of doctrinaire--like >a kind of official unofficial verse culture primer. >I've left out poets I'm crazy about, to be honest, >simply because I don't know quite what to do >with them (e.g., Diane Wakoski, James Tate, >Russell Edson). Still, I feel pretty settled on >the basic selection rationale, which largely >consists of sampling the Don Allen _New American >Poetry_ categories plus Second Gen New York School, >Language, and whatever it is that has grown out of / >around / on top of that. > >Another thing: you'll surely notice that >with one or two exceptions, the poets on this >syllabus are all grown up and already canonized at some level, >either to the point of godhood (Ginsberg, Ashbery) >or a slightly less Olympian but still "recognized" >cult status (DiPalma, Elmslie). I've reserved a day-- >yes, one measly day--at the end of the five weeks >to look at some more recent and less known writers: >that is, many of the persons who subscribe to this list. >Rather than face the hideous prospect of singling >out individual authors from among the vast foamy >sea of talent out there, I thought I'd try something >a little different: spend a whole session passing >around little magazines and chapbooks that feature >the turkiest of the young turks who are just >dying to be converted into academic fossils >before their time. Now this might seem like >a cheap ploy to get free goodies (maybe on some >dark, loathsome level of my unscrupulous psyche, >it is--gasp), but anyone out there who would like >to be a part of this great experiment might >consider sending chapbooks of their work, or if >they're editors, their magazines, etc. Consider >it publicity. One editor has already expressed interest >in possibly supplying several copies of a certain journal >for the class, which is actually where I got the idea >for this. I want to expose students not just to individual >writers, but to a whole spectrum of material poetic production >out there: self-publishing, small presses, broadsides, >electronic formats (though I don't know if I'm going >to be technologically capable of bringing web stuff >to the classroom on a mass level), lo-fi and hi-res >bookmaking, and so on. > >If anyone is interested in this hare-brained scheme, >please b/c me for my address or further info or just >to tell me what you think. > >Here's the syllabus: > >WEEK I > >Monday, June 19 >Introduction (Lecture on Pound, Stein, Williams, Zukofsky, Oppen, Cage, >etc.) > >Wednesday, June 21 >Charles Olson >Robert Creeley >Jack Spicer >Larry Eigner > >Friday, June 23 >Allen Ginsberg >Jack Kerouac >Amiri Baraka > >WEEK II > >Monday, June 26 >Frank O'Hara >Barbara Guest > >Wednesday, June 28 >John Ashbery >Kenneth Koch > >Friday, June 30 >Ron Padgett >Kenward Elmslie >Ted Berrigan >Bernadette Mayer > >WEEK III > >Monday, July 3 >Jackson MacLow >Clark Coolidge >Michael Palmer > >Wednesday, July 5 >Ron Silliman >Barrett Watten >Robert Grenier > >Friday, July 7 >Lyn Hejinian >Leslie Scalapino >Kathleen Fraser > >WEEK IV > >Monday, July 10 >Susan Howe >Hannah Weiner >Joan Retallack > >Wednesday, July 12 >Charles Bernstein >Bob Perelman >Bruce Andrews > >Friday, July 14 >Nathaniel Mackey >Rachel Blau DuPlessis >Ray DiPalma > >WEEK V > >Monday, July 17 >Will Alexander >Myung Mi Kim >Harryette Mullen > >Wednesday, July 19 >Assorted poets: little magazines, small presses, chapbooks, web journals > >Friday, July 21 >Poetry reading and cookies > > >There ye have it. > >Cheers, > >K. > > > > >--------------------------------- >K. Silem Mohammad >Santa Cruz, California >(831) 429-4068 > gaufred@leland.stanford.edu >OR immerito@hotmail.com >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 21:54:02 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: Re: wheres the List ? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Or is it only I who have been dropped off it ? I guess this is a >test message to see if it gets rejected.....David This was a question on monday---obviously answered long before it got posted (thursday).. Please overlook it. David ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 01:26:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Full parable text - MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Please go to http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/diary/para.txt for the full set of parables... thanks, Alan Internet Text at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Partial at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 02:05:49 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: documentary poems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A Reading 1-7 by Beverly Dahlen (Momo's Press) is also still available from SPD. In a message dated 2/3/0 4:22:13 PM, chax@THERIVER.COM writes: << A Reading 8-10 still available from Chax Press (email me). A smaller book, that includes Dahlen's "A Reading Spicer" as well as 17 sonnets by her, will be available in April from Chax. >> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 22:38:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: Re: Titles In-Reply-To: <004101bf6d38$6aa41e80$9bc6a7cb@a> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > or just say the title & pause very significantly? Tony, I have sat here making up (or recalling) titles of the kind one might pause very signifcantly after reading to an audience. Heres a few : each will work better if you are faking a limp : "Poem Before Jumping Off the Bungalow Roof" "Fucking the Dean's Wife Upon Graduation" "When I Cheated at Speed Chess in Washington Square" "Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening" "The Raven" "I'm a Man of Few Words" "I Swab the Decks Each Morning" "Not Everybody Has a Small Tail" "The Waste Land" "Where the Water Runs Down to the Parson's Outhouse and Beyond" --anyone else want to play? Yes, I have witnessed many ways to deal with this obstacle of a title. Some poets would sooner omit a title than deal with it. One I liked was reading the title after the poem, but not before. One other way to arrive at a title which I dont think you listed, is to take the penultimate line. This is useful if you give a lot of readings, as it signals the audience that youre about to stop. Then, after reading a number of these, read a long poem where the title is repeated at the halfway mark. You also write, >It's not easy to make thematic titles when you dont have themes. This would be a good thing to preface a reading by remarking. Guaranteed to put any audience at their ease. David ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 08:30:48 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michel Delville Subject: NEW PUBLICATION: Postwar American Poetry: The Mechanics of the Mirage Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear listers, We are happy to announce the publication of=20 POSTWAR AMERICAN POETRY: THE MECHANICS OF THE MIRAGE. Editors: Michel DELVILLE and Christine PAGNOULLE 300 pages =20 Spring 2000 =20 ISBN 2-87233-025-9 *PREPUBLICATION PRICE: BF 1000 =97 US$ 30 =97 EURO 25 (inclusive of postage = & packing!) (bank transfer, Eurocheque, or credit card) CONTENTS ESSAYS Robert ARCHAMBEAU (Lake Forest College, Illinois), "Roads Less Travelled: Two Paths Out of Modernism in Post-War American Poetry" Val=E9rie BADA (Universit=E9 de Li=E8ge), "'Dramatising the Verse' or Versif= ying the Drama: Rita Dove's The Darker Face of the Earth" Antoine CAZE (Universit=E9 d=92Orl=E9ans), "Margins of Theory, Theory of= Margins" Maria DAMON (University of Minnesota), "The Poetics of Poetry: Can These Bones Live?" Michel DELVILLE (Universit=E9 de Li=E8ge), "Writing Poetry in the Age of= Prose" Christophe DEN TANDT (Universit=E9 Libre de Bruxelles), "Dylan Goes Electric= : The Birth of Rock Poetry as a Canonical Catastrophe" Steve EVANS (University of Maine, Orono), "The American Avant-Garde after 1989: Notes for a History" Astrid FRANKE (Johann Wolfgang Goethe-Universit=E4t, Frankfurt am Main), "Public Voices in American Poetry: Robert Lowell and Bob Dylan" Kornelia FREITAG (Universit=E4t Potsdam), "'Representations' of Peculiar Motions: Rosmarie Waldrop's Poethics" Paul HOOVER (Columbia College, Chicago), "Murder and Closure: On the Impression of Reality in Contemporary Poetry" Frank KEARFUL (University of Bonn), "Shirley Kaufman and the Art of Turning" Pierre LAGAYETTE (University of Paris IV-Sorbonne), "'And we must rise, act': Postwar Poetry and the Aesthetics of Power" Mark LEAHY (University of Leeds), "Repetition, Rereading, Recognition, in the Poetry of Bruce Andrews" Peter MIDDLETON (University of Southampton), "1973 =96 The Emergence of Language Writing" Peter NICHOLLS (University of Sussex), "Phenomenal Poetics: Reading Lyn Hejinian" Sarah RIGGS (University of Michigan), "Spectator and Star: Frank O'Hara's Effects of 3-D Emergence" Nick SELBY (University of Wales, Swansea), "Cultural Mapping: Gary Snyder's Mountains and Rivers Without End as American Epic" POEMS Joe Amato =97 Maxine Chernoff =97H. Kassia Fleisher =97 Paul Hoover =97 Jenn= ifer Moxley - Keith Waldrop =97Rosmarie Waldrop Order from L3 English Department University of Li=E8ge 3 place Cockerill 4000 Li=E8ge, Belgium Fax: 32-4-366-57-21 Email: pierre.michel@ulg.ac.be http://www.ulg.ac.be/facphl/uer/d-german/L3/pwapbook.html --------------------------- Michel Delville English and American literature University of Li=E8ge 3 Place Cockerill 4000 Li=E8ge BELGIUM fax: ++ 32 4 366 57 21 e-mail: mdelville@ulg.ac.be You may want to visit L3's website at the following address: http://www.ulg.ac.be/facphl/uer/d-german/L3 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 09:56:17 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alaric Sumner Subject: Austria Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" While I have some sympathy with the ideas expressed by R Fleck and forwarded to this list by A Sondheim, it seems to me the argument against boycott is that depriving the Austrian people of work which promotes a politics alternative to the politics that some few Austrians have elected is counterproductive. If work has pretentions to USE (and i am not sure it should!), then the place should be flooded with counter-right work, stirring the populace to rise up and storm the Winter Palace. There are a number of countries around the world where the work of writers has encouraged/inspired the opposition to oppression (Catalunya under Franco is one of which I am particularly aware). Should Austria be allowed to fester in its new democratic rightwing stew (after all, coalitions are part of the structure of a democratic system), or should we start an airlift of suitably left poetry? Who would a left boycott hurt? Those who want support, ideas, solidarity from abroad. Who would a left boycott help? Those who want to stiffle left ideas. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 07:53:33 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: sociology of poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apologies for double posting. Have to run, but I think the way that gender, class, educational level, etc. plays itself out today in the alt poetry field would be fascinating to look closely at. The _Talisman_ anthology is, for instance, interesting for the prevalence of writers with MFA degrees from the exp. writing programs. Certainly a lot of networking is going on here, but how are these writers different (in sociological terms) from the ones represented by, say, The Art of Practice? & what are the different *statuses* of its editors? Why does Ganick include a forward by Silliman? Why isn't a similar forward included --one by Eigner, say--in any of the Language anthologies? Is the Talisman, then, in terms of its presentational strategy more like the Language anthologies, though less like them--less like Practice--in terms of content? (while Practice is at the same time nothing like the Language anthologies in the way it positions itself vis the status quo). How similar is the poetry of the former to the work done in more conventional MFA programs? Is there the same kind of institutionalized transmission of aesthetic values? Moreover, do the 3rd gen Language Poets (those represented roughly in Practice) differ sociologically from the 1st gen Language Poets? Assuming that there is something more at stake here than merely aesthetic meritocracy the questions become fascinating to consider. More complications: whereas the recourse to *theory* was quite natural in a way for the Language Poets to make, even among PhD poets such a recourse is not nearly as easy or attractive today because this *position* is in a sense still occupied by Bernstein, Silliman, etc. So I think one finds a certain backing away from theory going on & perhaps for this reason Beach is right when he notices a "retreat" occuring in contemporary poetry. I wouldn't commit myself to any of this of course as it's only coming off the top of my head. But these questions--as innocuous as they seem to me---are apparently *taboo*--and not merely *disputed*. & that too raises interesting questions. --jacques ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:07:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Stefans, Brian" Subject: Berrigan's Cigar and Lemon Shoppe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" [This doesn't take into consideration much more than Jacques initial two posts, so pardon me if it seems to ignore other commentary. I wrote this a few days ago.] Hi Jacques, I was intrigued by your post on Berrigan as are many others, obviously. There are good ideas here but the language seems a bit off, overdetermined in a way that ignores some of the "play" in the works of the figures you cite. I am not sure how this sentence operates: > Success in poetry thus depends not as much on intrinsic abilities and gifts (since aesthetic value is a social, not a natural, creation) as on the extent of the poet's cultural capital--that is, his or her sense of the state of the game as it being played *now*. You make it sound like all poets have some sort of vision of the "game," a game of critics, fans, canons, ideologies, etc, and that this game is entirely one of acquring cultural, or symbolic, capital. But then what of the "game" that, say, William Carlos Williams played, which he played up to the end when he asked (apparently, on his deathbed): "But will they last?" He had obviously, I think, won the game you write of, which is to say he had acquired some sort of position among the high canon of modernists, and had visitors from all over the world paying homage to him, etc., and holding him up against Eliot and an entire establishment of writers, but why doesn't that satisfy him? One could say (rather cynically, I think) that the question concerned some sort of positioning in some immortal canon, but I think there are more self-deceiving writers who are quite assured of their position in this "immortal canon" who would not ask this question on their deathbed (some of them appear in Bloom's book). I tend to interpret this question on a more basic level: he had made an investment in one particular aspect of his own game, which is the reduction of his poems to typographical creations, to words bashed out by an old whatever, Smith Corona, devoid, in their most radical moments, of the sort of poly-referentiality and "deep" meanings of Pound and Eliot and whatever the establishment represented, devoid of homages to past forms, whether in terms of rhymes, meters, stanzas, and he was not quite sure, at the end, whether he had played this game quite rightly, whether it was a waste of time. Which is to say, he wanted to know if he had reinvented poetry (the guiding myth of the best utopian poets), or had he merely disappeared down a dark sidestreet. (Hopkins, I feel, was another, and so was Dickinson -- though I know you are mostly concerned with modern/postmodern poetry, though I don't see quite the break most people do between poetry production "then" and "now", except that now we are all deluded into thinking that the most interesting writing is making its appearance the day after it is written, and is not being stored away in a trunk on account of the poet's modesty or sense of shame.) So he was probably asking not whether he had, himself, acquired symbolic or cultural capital -- I think the awards, biographies and commentaries prove he had -- but whether the poems had and can survive their immediate context -- whether they will be "seminal" (not to get male-o-centric on you), which is to me a more interesting, perhaps truthful, way of approaching this issue. [I'm probably taking "success" all wrong in your post, I realize.] [Nonetheles...] You probaby think I'm oversimplifying or romanticizing, but I think that we can give poets (poets that we happen to admire or respect, with some knowledge of their "lives") the benefit of the doubt when it comes to perceiving wider dangers for their poems than can be described merely by looking at the "public sphere", or the materialistically-determined sphere, in which poetry is produced. I think Anselm's post hits upon certain aspects of this, especially as so much of TB's writing (though he appears to have been a far-from-"modest" poet) seems not to have seen the light of day (I mean outside the apartment), but contributed, at least in TB's mind, to some image of the flux of his activity, hence, in a private canon which, with its idiosyncrasies, virtues and blindnesses, is unreproducable for the "market". In this way the poet's private economy operates as a standing, in-motion critique of the prevailing economy, since the "meanings" of private symbols never become detached from their objects, though we as poets always have to remind ourselves and, moreso, others that this private economy exists, or existed, since, once the production appears -- the Selected Poems of Ted Berrigan -- we are confronted with the "closed" version of the poet's "career" -- the happy-ending version (snipped up as The Sonnets in it are). By the way, I saw Padgett read from the book you mention, and there are two things to note: one, that TB may have been "very much concerned" with his inclusion in the anthology, but that it doesn't really come across that way in the book, as it was only noted in the course of a joke, when TB joked to RP that he was _not_ in there, which was very funny when Padgett read it (he used a sort of "Me Tarzan You Jane" kind of voice), and two, that RP didn't seem to much care about not being included, as he doesn't seem to care much for "symbolic capital" though he is, as far as I'm concerned, a terribly underrated, sometimes very ambitious, and in the end fine poet (kind of like Herrick, a poet who seemed a bit "old-fashioned" once people finally recognized he was there, but whose civil, almost hedonistic temperement has more or less kept him on course, terribly unanxious as he was for popular approval). In fact, I ran into RP at a book party for some journal he wrote of, I think, Sweden, and he told me not to buy the book, saying simply: "It sucks." I don't think he was waiting for me to argue with him, that he was treating me like an adoring acolyte, but that it was his "modesty" (and Tulsa humor); in any case I didn't experience any sort of clash of symbolic capital there, nor even a clash of discourses -- I got the joke, took the advice, moved on. In any case, RP is a counter-example to the image of the poet you present, and though you may argue that he has a small circle of admirers in which he is respected and among whom he possesses "cultural capital", one would have to ask, then, what he has to done to expand this capital, since it seems that one would, in an effort to get over anxieties of _losing_ this capital, one would seek expansion -- new markets, younger, better-looking, wealthier. My sense is that many of these arguments which use basic figures of poets as their examples often use figures that are most aggressive in asserting discourses as the sort of Everyman, reading a Barrett Watten beneath the skin of a Ted Berrigan, for example. When you write that: > What was also largely at stake here was the inevitable dialectic of change that constitutes the shifting hierarchical structure of the cultural field (in other words, the breakdown in communications was *not* some unfortunate misunderstanding but was intended as a direct challenge to the cultural practice in which Berrigan had accumulated symbolic capital. Since ideas were taken somewhat more seriously at this time, the poetry world wasn't able to accomodate the legitimacy of both the Lang Poets and the 2nd gen NYS. Again, the discourse of " poetic community" entirely conceals what was essentialy a conflict of power). While I don't want to imagine TB as some sort of divine innocent here, and I don't know much about this exchange, I think there are a few things to note. I think the use of the term "poetry world" here is not very helpful -- who are what is the "poetry world" and how did this world demonstrate any inability to accomodate these dual legitimacies? Did the poetry world fail to accomodate the legitimacy of the original "New York School" and the "projectivist school", and the "Beats"? All three of these groups have more definitive contours than the 2nd generation New York School poets, and certainly more "cultural capital" and contrasts in values, and the Language Poets, at that time, were kind of just starting out (which I mention since I wonder if the Language poets were in the position of _creating_ a discourse for their predecessors which they could then critique and overturn, since one wonders how oppressive this prior discourse, or rather cultural economy, really was -- wasn't there a larger, more oppressive cultural economy?). In any case, what kind of opposition, in terms of discourse, did TB really propose, except perhaps to claim that he didn't understand what the Language Poets were talking about, or didn't care for this sort of ideological thinking (carrying over the "Fuck Communism" from the Bean Spasms, which he probably didn't "mean" in an ideological or normative way, over to this part of his life, a phrase, by the way, that seems to prefigure in its graffiti-like brevity and overstatement the even shorter "I HATE SPEECH" of Grenier). While I would agree with you that TB was probably blind to the play of these cultural institutions on himself and his work, or at least rarely thought about it, and hence would react to defend this level of culture in which he felt comfortable, one would have to ask why his writing and life seems so "fragmented" and small-pub based as it was. Wasn't there as much money in his "art world" as there was in that of O'Hara and Ashbery? I also don't understand, based on you paragraph above, how a "breakdown in communications" could serve as a "direct challenge" -- is this a transplant of the Dadaist gesture to the realm of cultural discourse, so that we are questioning discourses ability to determine anything by throwing static in its path? Is one able to create a productive discourse at the same time as enacting a "breakdown of communications" -- and did the Language Poets really do this? I agree with you that the term "poetic community" means almost nothing, but once you do away with this "poetic community" as a category, you realize that those who were once considered actors on this stage are really subject to much greater forces that extend beyond it, which is to say that you can't (to get metaphorical on you) usefully isolate the different currents of air work in a limited space, say in a bedroom or cafeteria, and hope to explain how hurricanes and typhoons operate -- there are connections, but one must keep things in perspective. > The reason the List carries so many mentions of the Lang Poets is an extremely ironic one: They stand in the way of the next generation, but, as cultural values themselves don't matter really anymore (not as much as symbolic capital does) the next generation cannot dispense w/ the Language poets function to confer legitimization. I'm not so sure this is true, and I'll use, for lack of more knowledge, myself as a counter-example. I was recently visited by two Canadian concrete poets, Darren Wershler-Henry and Christian Bok, and they have been very supportive of my web work, as has Kenneth Goldsmith, not himself a "language poet" but a visual artist. Steve McCaffery, associated with the Language poets (though excluded from In The American Tree) and a friend of Christians, doesn't actually, so I hear, think much of some of his work, maybe even lots of it -- regardless, he carries on, and my sense of Toronto is that it is quite vital in terms of exchanging ideas and charting out possibilities for poetry (oddly, all the writers seem to attend the same parties there, whether they are selling screenplays or basing poems on the sounds of electric razors). I am also in contact with Keston Sutherland and Andrea Brady, presently in Cambridge, UK, where the LangPos hold no sway, and yet they carry on with their own various senses of tradition, along with the Asian American scene in New York (and in L.A., ie. Walter Lew), though only rather peripherally. Another strand would be "cyberpoets", and as yet inchoate set of circumstances as far as I can tell. Most of the poets who have recently come to New York, most of whom are 5 or so years younger than me, have far less anxiety about this group of poets than those poets slightly older than me (to be general and reductive). My point being, simply, that there is quite a lot out there that is free of this Language poetry orbit, and that one can submerge oneself in these various vectors without any sort of idea of the Language poets "conferring legitimization" (where is this done anyway?). I think the problem is more concerning where the next level of "discourse" about poetry is to emerge, where find these terms, how to make them vital, etc., without succumbing to a sort of tit-for-tat with the wide-ranging critique and discourse provided by these poets. But if you choose to sacrifice the need for this discourse (I called them "ideas" in other posts, and I obviously argue that this discourse and these ideas are useful) then one can do fine (sort of). > Emerging poets are thus caught in the double bind evident in the Talisman anthology. I'd like to know what this double-bind is, since I couldn't make much out of that book myself. I thought the anthology rather premature as an "anthology" and, as a result, very awkward, providing a not-very clear window on some developing but as yet inchoate poetic activity (it would have been a good special issue of the magazine, but it provided no punctuation to the course of poetry). The poetry being written right now is much more interesting than what was being done back then, not so long ago, though I don't know how much credit could be given to that book for spurring this activity. Anyway, do you really feel caught in a "double bind" that is presented in that book? Anyway, just some ideas -- hopeless ramble. Took the day off of work today (had an "upset stomach"). Best, Brian ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:12:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Stefans, Brian" Subject: Up front, etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Just a quick not in response to Ellis's recent post, where he asks: > Are we to presume that respect for one's private authority take the place of that authority's expression in the public domain of language? Without going into the entire paragraph, which seems to me to present a very confused argument, I think in a nutshell that I would answer Yes to this one, provided one changes the term "private authority" to "sense of personal determinacy," which is to say that I think the personal contracts that people generally honor amongst each other are to be held in higher regard than any sort of abstraction concerning the "public domain of language," whatever that is, simply because we all have a "right" to feel in control of our actions, even if these actions are somehow sublimated to the level of "cultural productions." Another way of putting it: those of us who post to the list trust that our "actions" in this event, the creation of language, is going to be read in the context of a "thread" and we expect any interpretiave glosses to be provided with the consideration of this context, which is a matter of trust (more than "right") -- it would be cynical to sacrifice this trust to the cause of some idea of the "public domain of language" (basic to this understanding is the idea that "writing," like shouting "kill the motherfuckers"* at a football match or weeping hot tears in a movie theatre and commenting on it afterwards are all forms of "action" that can be later recalled and commodified, and if this seems ridiculous because I am not citing aspects of "literary" activity, think of how unliterary most of our posts are compared to, say, The Ambassadors or Finnegans Wake -- we are basically writing fortune cookies.) Most of us gladly give up the right to, say, the quotations of one of our poems in a review, as we basically understand that this is what happens to poems -- no appeal to universals is made -- but to, say, publish the poem in a book or magazine in a context in which it is supporting some cause that is repulsive, then any issue of the "public domain of language" falls immediately to the side. I don't even think people should take posts from this list and publish them elsewhere -- as has been done to one of my own posts, without "permission" (a post I had regretted writing in the way I did) -- since it separates the text from the situation in which it was proposed, or for which it was produced (though in fact I have guiltily republished prior posts to the list, which I have mixed feelings about having done). That, as Ellis writes, concerning posting one of Jacques "retracted" posts to the list, "[a] sort of offense can be generative as well as merely offensive," he is of course right, there can be a generative apsect to any sort of literary terrorism -- by this I mean those acts that step outside of the contracts that writers/editors have among each other, even if one has decided these contracts are stultifying -- but then why justify it with these sorts of arguments that aspire to absolute determinations of what is "public" and "private" -- why not simply say he broke a law, and suffer gladly for it (and risk a friendship, I would presume). * interesting though brief story on John Rocker in the Village Voice this week, concerning mostly how indecent the New York fans were to him when he was here. So it's not just us who are ga-ga about language in the public sphere. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:30:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Lennon Subject: "professional" critics/poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I myself am not so sure that the Language poets changed everything. But I think that charges leveled generally at "academic professionalism" (as opposed to its specific practices) perform the fear of professionalism more than they criticize it. Any infiltrator of the academy witnesses first-hand the shame and anxiety of professional literary critics (by which I mean: those who believe they aren't poets). They don't need creative writers to tell them that they're alienated: they already know it. This is bad energy that can be turned to one's own (and more than one's own) advantage. Brian Lennon >Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 07:47:00 EST >From: Jacques Debrot >Subject: "professional" critics/poets >The charge of professionalization is thrown around a lot on this List. But >what is meant by this is actually only a familiarity w/ the "professional" >discourses of critical & cultural theory. Presumably the role of *poet*, for >some people, excludes this familiarity. I would argue, instead, that after >the Language Poets, this familiarity is essential. Why? Because the whole >history of the series of changes in any aesthetic context is always *present* >in the latest examples of that context--just as, to borrow a metaphor, the >six numbers already dialed on a phone are present when the seventh is dialed. >To the extent that such demands seem unreasonable, is to suffer from the >*illusion* that the *role* of poet remains constant simply because the word >*poet* does--as if there wasn't always a struggle for what that word *meant*. >Ironically, Tony Green denies the existence of *competiton* while >simultaneously *competing* for his own version of the *legitimate* meaning of >"poet," & "poem"--neither of which are *givens*. >--jacques ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 09:46:02 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: Titles In-Reply-To: <004101bf6d38$6aa41e80$9bc6a7cb@a> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Okay title fans. When you're looking at paintings do you look at the little card first? in the middle? at the end? not at all? Does it matter that Vermeer named a painting "The Art of Painting" (very spectacular, currently on loan at the National Gallery)? That we know this title from a document (letter or bankruptcy claim or bill of sale, I don't recall) by his wife after his death? Where does the title fit? How does it function? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Whoppers Whoppers Whoppers! Math, University of Kansas | memory fails Lawrence, KS 66045 | these are the days." 785-864-4630 | fax: 785-864-5255 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.math.ukans.edu/~roitman/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:27:32 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Shape of Time In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Everyone seems to perceive time as one-dimensional (whether in a straight line or wave-like or circular or...) but in special relativity it has a sort of smeary two-dimensional quality, i.e., the separation between events is time-like or space-like depending on whether a certain quantity is positive or negative (I know all this is taking place in 4-D, but I'm collapsing space into 1-D for the sake of imagery). Does anyone perceive things that way? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Whoppers Whoppers Whoppers! Math, University of Kansas | memory fails Lawrence, KS 66045 | these are the days." 785-864-4630 | fax: 785-864-5255 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.math.ukans.edu/~roitman/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 23:20:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard Bentley Subject: Re: success MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Love the new word "weren't'ble". Great can be our use of double and triple contractions such as "bill'ble'ours"and "wha'zdo'ble," ETC. >Glad you weren't ble to delete my post! I would love to be able to say I >*deliberately* had you looking in the wrong place. > >But you also write: > >"Sadly in broad spectrum treatments of > > art-as-social-phenomenon, the > > pleasures of reading for readers have > > to be disregarded." > >Like you, I don't want to disregard my own subjective response to >literature--to do that would be hypocritical, no matter to what extent my >tastes are socially determined. But it seems to me that the danger of a >corrective is *not* from the point of view of "the pleasures of reading." >That's the doxa. But rather than emotive arguments appealling to >everyone's--including my own prejudices & self interest--can you *actually & >persuasively counter* Bourdieu's attempt to account for the social conditions >of art? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 09:26:34 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: why write poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed jacques debrot, Well of course you didn't ask why write poetry. I felt/feel the question was implicated not by *your* arguments, per se, but by the larger conversation. Your arguments reduce poetic practice to its most utilitarian dimension. That that utilitarian dimension exists is not something I take issue with; to infer that that's *all* there is (or all there is that's worth discussing, lest we betray our biases as "individual agents") as you so coldly do, *is* precisely the matter of dispute. The question of why write poetry is not meant to elicit anecdotal responses, as you seem to suggest ("i'm sure there are many different reasons for writing poetry"), but rather is intended to implicate the meaning of poetic practise. Let me recast the issue in terms which perhaps you can better understand. If poetic practice is ultimately reducible to the quest for cultural capital, then poets, *statistically speaking*, write in order to accumulate same, & those who are smarter, who have better calculated their self-interest, are not unaware of this fact. Indeed, the attempt to accumulate cultural capital could be said-- as I believe you *are* saying-- to determine the character of poetic production. Cultural capital would be the ultimate goal of poetic production, one of which individual agents may not be entirely unaware, and all poetic production would be reducible to the attempt to accumulate it. This, I would argue, is analogous to saying that the *meaning* of poetic production is the attempt to accumulate cultural capital. (Please understand, I don't mean the "meaning" of individual poems, though in fact I see no reason why this overriding concern should not ultimately be deducible on the thematic, or at least the symbolic level, & can only imagine the many new "readings" of classic literary texts which might result from this insight).... I would argue that the meaning of poetic practice coincides with, but IS NOT IDENTICAL TO, the question of why write. In that sense, the latter is ultimately subject to a more anecdotal understanding; & some people do write in part for reasons that are not far removed from your analysis. Yet the two are close in other ways, and for many writers, arguably identical. (Imagine Shelley's or Brecht's or Oppen's or Silliman's work divorced from its political purpose). "i don't think that what bourdieu is interested in is the poet's *intentions* per se--just that, if one is going to present a model of a social practice, intentions, motives, self-interest and so on are some of the things agents do act on. but in fact these things are finally what is indeterminable in his analysis." It is true that we are ultimately unaware of the implications of our actions. These matters are bound by culture, gender, class, race, as well as our necessarily limited purview as "individual agents." The point is that we have to proceed with as much awareness of these circumstances as possible-- that's where theory comes in. But you seem to evade my point that there has to be more, that a meaning is implicated in cultural activity, out of which the question of why write, if indeterminable (unquantifyable?), is exactly what is at stake. Your argument sideswipes poetic meaning in favor of the mechanizations of cultural power. & By the way, I do not care about your reading of Bourdieu. Yes, acknowledge where you got your ideas. But this isn't a seminar, Jacques. I'm talking to YOU. What do you have to say, Mark DuCharme ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 12:33:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Stefans, Brian" Subject: Manifesto Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I'm sure I'm missing something here -- is this a joke? But regarding: > The APG Opposes The international poetry trade Since when have "radical" poets with "socialist" leanings opposed internationalism? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 11:00:31 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: titles and experiments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Couldn't the title be a poem in itself? I came up with a brilliant title for a poem, "Minor Poets of the New York School," but I couldn't possibly write the poem itself since it would inevitably be disappointing. How about a book of titles with no poems? The reader would have to supply the poem to match each title. I like titles that have an oblique or mysterious relation to the poem, especially those by Wallace Stevens and John Ashbery. I've been trying to write a poem called "Conventionally good poem" for several months: the idea was to announce in the title that the poem was attempting to be a "good" poem, with lots of stunning imagery, vivid language, moving emotional effects, etc... Of course this title is the perfect invitation to writer's block. I've seen untitled poems printed (or usually RE-printed) incorrectly. Squished together with the preceding poem or following poem or with half the poem missing. It seems then that the title has some role in preserving the integrity of the text against well-meaning or malicious anthologists. My writing experiments are posted at the poetry project web-sit (www.poetryproject.com/html.mayhew). Others are buried in the poetics archives (1998 I believe). They are frankly and apologetically derivative of Bernadette Mayer and OuLiPo. Jonathan Mayhew jmayhew@ukans.edu _____________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 19:53:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hilton Manfred Obenzinger Subject: Re: Titles In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sample titles: Feets Don't Fail Me Now What I Think of My Lungs Dirt Bag Ode to Sexual Misconduct Sizzler Still Life of Forceps, Cannisters, Ball-Bearings You Suck! The Sweet Rewards of Aggression Wandering Too Close to The Edge of The Grand Canyon What's Your Sign? Please Don't Hurt Me, I'll Talk! Meditation on Dow Jones in Heat The Book of Revelations ---- Write the title first -- then write the poem. Try it. Hilton Obenzinger ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 09:43:55 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Walter K. Lew" Subject: Complete address for J. Chang Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sorry--left out a line from Julie's address: Prof. Juliana Chang Dept. of English University of Illinois 608 S. Wright St. Urbana, IL 61801 E-mail: Walter K. Lew 11811 Venice Blvd. #138 Los Angeles, CA 90066 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 09:59:36 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Walter K. Lew" Subject: re Frances Chung's boolist Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thank you to bstefans for restoring shape levels to the list / spun / Walter Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:52:53 -0500 From: "Stefans, Brian" Subject: Frances Chung's booklist Hi, Anselm. First, let me try to say: the game, thinking in diversity, our bewilderment detracts "down on yourself" the best shot as the words portend -- as split in All. (I've been relatively quiet on this.) WHAT THE NAME? The site is named 'proximate' as a nod to the... THE SELECTED POEMS OF FEDERICO GARCIA LORCA, ed. Francisco Garcia Lorca, and what is Walter K. Lew 11811 Venice Blvd. #138 Los Angeles, CA 90066 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 14:12:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: correction re Frances Chung's booklist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "boolist" should read "booklist" - apologies to walter ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 09:59:36 -0800 To: POETICS@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu From: Lew@HUMnet.UCLA.EDU (Walter K. Lew) Subject: re Frances Chung's boolist Thank you to bstefans for restoring shape levels to the list / spun / Walter Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:52:53 -0500 From: "Stefans, Brian" Subject: Frances Chung's booklist Hi, Anselm. First, let me try to say: the game, thinking in diversity, our bewilderment detracts "down on yourself" the best shot as the words portend -- as split in All. (I've been relatively quiet on this.) WHAT THE NAME? The site is named 'proximate' as a nod to the... THE SELECTED POEMS OF FEDERICO GARCIA LORCA, ed. Francisco Garcia Lorca, and what is Walter K. Lew 11811 Venice Blvd. #138 Los Angeles, CA 90066 ---------- End Forwarded Message ---------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 13:58:35 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jill Stengel Subject: Re: sf reading 2/13 addendum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (i'm resending this...orig sent immediately after the initial message re sf reading 2/13, but somehow it never appeared on the list...) ________________________________ the reading is at 2:00 p.m. oops and thanks, jill ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 14:57:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: new publications: Pressed Wafer / Bouchard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message had to be reformatted. Chris -- From: Daniel Bouchard Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 14:09:59 -0500 Now Available from Pressed Wafer Pressed Wafer 1: Rodrigo Moynihan Diaries James Schuyler Unpublished Letters & Poems Paul Petricone Photographs Paul Metcalf Michael Palmer Ann Kim Monica Peck Ed Barrett Ben Watkins/Lee Harwood Collaboration Joseph Torra John Wieners Donna de la Perri=E8re $10.00 *** Pressed Wafer Books: Beth Anderson: In Residence Cover Art: Jane Hammond $5.00 Fred Moten: Arkansas Cover Art: Jeffery Schlanger $5.00 ____________ Send checks and orders to: Pressed Wafer 9 Columbus Square Boston, MA 02116 *Add $2.00 for shipping and handling. ><>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Bouchard Senior Production Coordinator =20 The MIT Press Journals =20 Five Cambridge Center =20 Cambridge, MA 02142 bouchard@mit.edu phone: 617.258.0588 fax: 617.258.5028 <>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><>> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:30:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lowther, John" Subject: Re: Shape of Time MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain { p o e t i x } judy roitman asked if anyone perceived time, as in special relativity and i love the question ---- love trying to do so ----- but dont have much faith that i have ----- some months back bill lavender asked me if i cd think of a way of conceiving of time that didnt use spacial metaphors ----- more head scratching i only write to mention again a book i've been reading about time which might interests judy, bill, dan waber, other folks adding to this thread or thinking about it maybe in cozy bean bag chairs of lurkdom _time's arrow and archimedes point_ by huw price it's very interesting and has given me some pretty wild flights of thinking about time ---- mainly trying to get my head around the idea that the "arrow of time" the perceived directionality of it (it goes thatta way) is a consequence of our being located within time ---- price suggests, heuristically, an archimedean point outside time, from which perspective causality for instance wd be seen to work in *both* directions which i find endlessly fun to think about ----- tho i mentioned it at a meeting sometime back and was told it wasnt very interesting and that it wd be more interesting if time went off on many tangents instead of operating "on a line" ----- still, i find the notion of causality being reversible more complicated than say, seeing a film running backwards anyway, some thoughts )L > -----Original Message----- > From: Judy Roitman [SMTP:roitman@MATH.UKANS.EDU] > Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 11:28 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Shape of Time > > Everyone seems to perceive time as one-dimensional (whether in a straight > line or wave-like or circular or...) but in special relativity it has a > sort of smeary two-dimensional quality, i.e., the separation between > events > is time-like or space-like depending on whether a certain quantity is > positive or negative (I know all this is taking place in 4-D, but I'm > collapsing space into 1-D for the sake of imagery). Does anyone perceive > things that way? > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > Judy Roitman | "Whoppers Whoppers Whoppers! > Math, University of Kansas | memory fails > Lawrence, KS 66045 | these are the days." > 785-864-4630 | > fax: 785-864-5255 | Larry Eigner, > 1927-1996 > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > http://www.math.ukans.edu/~roitman/ > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 15:01:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Re: Titles / Dinsmore MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message had to be reformatted. Chris -- From: Claire Dinsmore Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 18:11:45 -0500 Is it not obvious that this is a (very subjective) opinion? I do not agree at all that the titles in visual art are 'meaning'less. I am a visual artist and my titles are of immense importance to me and, I hope, to the work. It is a different language (obviously) and one which I enjoy hinging upon the power of. Visual language, especially abstract, is also less 'readable' to most and a title can sometimes assist in 'grounding' a work to a viewer without a reference point. The titles are often referential, symbolic -- telling in an obscure, poetic or obvious manner (depending on meaning / effect / intent) and adding a dimension which I find quite vital in both creating and experiencing (visual and otherwise) art. My opinion and/or actions are the same when it comes to poetry -- the titles always come after the completion of the piece and are often simply one word which references the aura, as it were, of the poem in total. They are often hints, suggestive and/or misleading, openings, invitations plumbing the semiological depths ... (please note: all expressed with the sensibilities a of drama queen who loves the word; and, of course, a subtle sense of humour in tow.) and: in a lot of visual art created in the last 10 years especially, you will note the predominance of text (or implied text) -- it's means/media sought by many an artist to describe/accentuate the indelibility of the 'trace,' the 'mark ...' Claire Dinsmore Karen Kelley wrote: > the card on the wall. there for viewer orientation, and best not too > precious or obvious, unless blatantly utilitarian. probably best not > to take the card too seriously, read in too much "meaning." just there to > make people feel a bit more secure & comfortable by offering the semblance > of "context"-- nothing (in my book) wrong with that. my titles generally > whatever I call the poem to myself when I'm writing it. -- "What am I, if not a collector of vanished gazes?" - Theo Angelopoulos http://www.StudioCleo.com/entrancehall.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 21:48:49 -0800 Reply-To: jim@vispo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: KOMNINOS ZERVOS AT DEFIB THIS SUNDAY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit KOMNINOS ZERVOS AT DEFIB Sunday February 6, Noon Pacific Time (20:00 GMT) Defib: http://www.webartery.com/defib/index.htm KOMNINOS ZERVOS Since 1985 i have been a professional performance poet, touring around australia performing at schools, literary festivals, and community groups. on one such tour of north western new south wales (what we call the outback) i began to make cyberpoetry on my mac powerbook 100 with 4meg of ram and a "huge" 40mb hard disk. i created lists of adjectives, nouns,verbs,adjectives,nouns, in a spreadsheet program and then used the random sort to create new combinations, like the exquisite corpse poems of the surrealiats. i also made my first text animation using five microsoft works 2 draw files, all of the word "fall" at different positions down a page, so when i ran it in slide show mode the word fall appeared to be falling down the page - very cliche! I am teaching mostly these days, and writing my phd in english on "the performance of poetry in australia since 1945". i occassionally scribble a personal, diary entry type poem, but mainly i am hinking of creating for cyberspace these days. in cyberpoetry the only rule is poetry that can't be published in the print medium, that relies on the properties of the computer, the internet and the world wide web. KOMNINOS CYBERPOETRY WEBSITE http://student.uq.edu.au/~s271502 DEFIB You're invited to participate/collaborate in this live chat session which, like the rest of the Defib Web artist interviews, is recorded and turned into a hypertranscript (canned version) of the show. Past shows are available at http://webartery.com/defib/pastevents.htm TECH REQ All you need is a Java-enabled browser pointed at http://webartery.com/defib/index.htm to participate. Or mIRC or Ircle, etc (see Help section in Defib for details) if you prefer to use a traditional IRC client. Regards, Jim Andrews ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 21:49:15 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Harryette Mullen at Mills College Feb. 9 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Liz Willis asked me to pass this along . . . Come hear Harryette Mullen, Wednesday Feb. 9 at 5:30 p.m. in the Mills College Faculty Lounge. Harryette Mullen is the amazing author of four books of poetry, most recently MUSE & DRUDGE, published by Singing Horse in 1995. Her other books include S*PeRM**KT (Singing Horse, 1992) and TRIMMINGS (Tender Buttons, 1991). She currently teaches African-American literature and Creative Writing at UCLA. This event inaugurates the reading series THE ERRANT WORD: POETRIES OF LATE AMERICA, sponsored by the Multicultural Curricular Enhancement Program and the James Irvine Foundation. DIRECTIONS TO MILLS FROM SAN FRANCISCO &/or BERKELEY: From the Bay Bridge area, take 580 East toward Hayward. A few miles down the pike, you'll pass exits for 35th Ave, Fruitvale Ave., and High Street. Take the MacArthur Blvd. exit, which comes immediately after High Street. When you get to the bottom of the exit ramp you will be facing Mills College. Take a right onto MacArthur off the ramp and a quick left into the Mills Entrance. The guard at the gate can direct you from there, but it's relatively easy. The road you're on ends at a T intersection. Park anywhere you can and retrace your steps to this intersection. If you go forward from here (as if the road continued) you'll pass the library and cross a small bridge. The next building on the left is the student center. From where you stand, the Faculty Lounge is at the back left corner of the building. If you have questions feel free to call Mills Information at 510-430-2255 or leave a message for Elizabeth Willis at 510-430-2289. PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION FROM SAN FRANCISCO Mills College is easily accessible by bus. Catch the N bus at the Transbay Terminal (Mission & 1st) and in half an hour it lets you off across the street from Mills. If you've never been to Mills, ask the driver to tell you where to get off. It costs $2.50 each way. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 01:22:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Cunningham Subject: Re: poetry syllabus In-Reply-To: <20000204032336.QZSS13032@[12.72.1.6]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sadly _Dictee_ appears to be completely out of print, thus unavailable to the professors and civilians who (fairly frequently) contact SPD looking for it. Third Woman Press, its original publisher, has had plans to reprint it for some time, but it continues not to arrive at our doorstep. Hopefully the reprint is still in the works, as it's an excellent and suggestive work. Brent Cunningham As always, do check out SPD's ever-revolving selection of new titles, going up on the Web once a month at www.spdbooks.org At 07:34 PM 2/3/00 -0800, you wrote: >Ah, this is a can of worms to be sure, but I have to publicly make a pitch >for including Teresa Hak Kyung Cha's _Dictee_. I've taught this text to >"beginning" and "intermediate/advanced" students at San Francisco State with >excellent results. Will help to further discussions about definitions of >"poetry," the "visual arts," "identity," "race," "Nationhood." Can be used >to many useful pedagogical ends -- plus it's just a fascinating text. >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >Kathy Lou Schultz >Editor & Publisher >Lipstick Eleven/Duck Press >http://www.duckpress.org > >42 Clayton Street San Francisco, CA 94117-1110 > >---------- >>From: "K.Silem Mohammad" >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >>Subject: poetry syllabus >>Date: Thu, Feb 3, 2000, 10:02 AM >> > >>Hi List, >> >>I'm going to be teaching a course at UC Santa Cruz >>this summer on Contemporary American Poetry, >>and I thought it might be useful/ interesting/ >>inflammatory/etc. to run a draft of my syllabus >>past anyone out there who has nothing better to do >>than my work for me. (BTW, I'm cross-posting >>this to both the subsub and Beefalo lists.) >> >>It's a five-week intensive course that meets >>three times a week for two and a half hours a day, >>and an obvious problem is fitting as much in >>as possible without overloading the students >>(most of whom will probably be pretty new >>to [insert your favorite adjective here] poetry). >>That goal may ultimately be impossible, but >>I'd love to get feedback on this. >> >>The selections here are largely but not exclusively >>from Paul Hoover's Norton anthology, >>_Postmodern American Poetry_. Since I want to keep >>the required texts affordable, I'm trying to limit >>them to Hoover and a photocopied course reader >>(although I'm tempted to require Ashbery's >>_Tennis Court Oath_, Hejinian's _My Life_, >>and Will Alexander's _Towards the Primeval >>Lightning Field_, among others, in their entirety). >>I'm trying also to limit the content of the reader >>to critical texts as much as possible (e.g. excerpts >>from Spicer's dictation lecture, Silliman's >>_New Sentence_, the passage from Jameson's >>_Postmodernism_ on Perelman's "China, " >>Bernadette Mayers' writing experiments, etc.), >>but there are some poems Hoover doesn't include >>that I just have to put in--Ashbery's "Daffy Duck >>in Hollywood," Coolidge's "Bee Elk," and so on. >> >>That much being said, I'd like especially to hear >>from people about what kinds of things they >>think should be taught about the poets I've listed, >>and even about what poets I should be whipped >>for omitting (or, I guess, for _not_ omitting) >>Of course, it's simply not possible to fit everyone in >>that I'd like to. I've reluctantly disincluded biggies like >>Robert Duncan, Denise Levertov, Ed Dorn, >>James Schuyler, Rosmarie Waldrop, Steve McCaffery, >>Johanna Drucker, David Bromige, David Antin-- >>you get the idea. Some of these are favorites >>of mine, and there might be persuasive >>arguments for putting some of them back; >>but then who gets the axe? Such power! >> >>Keep in mind that I've subtitled the course "from Beat >>to Postlanguage" (note: I definitely _will_ acknowledge >>the contested status of that second label), and >>that my more or less arbitrary starting point is poets >>who were fairly new in the '50s. Hence no readings >>from Stein, Zukofsky, etc.; though maybe I'll print >>up some handouts for the first day. >> >>I must admit to feeling a little guilty that >>the reading list seems kind of doctrinaire--like >>a kind of official unofficial verse culture primer. >>I've left out poets I'm crazy about, to be honest, >>simply because I don't know quite what to do >>with them (e.g., Diane Wakoski, James Tate, >>Russell Edson). Still, I feel pretty settled on >>the basic selection rationale, which largely >>consists of sampling the Don Allen _New American >>Poetry_ categories plus Second Gen New York School, >>Language, and whatever it is that has grown out of / >>around / on top of that. >> >>Another thing: you'll surely notice that >>with one or two exceptions, the poets on this >>syllabus are all grown up and already canonized at some level, >>either to the point of godhood (Ginsberg, Ashbery) >>or a slightly less Olympian but still "recognized" >>cult status (DiPalma, Elmslie). I've reserved a day-- >>yes, one measly day--at the end of the five weeks >>to look at some more recent and less known writers: >>that is, many of the persons who subscribe to this list. >>Rather than face the hideous prospect of singling >>out individual authors from among the vast foamy >>sea of talent out there, I thought I'd try something >>a little different: spend a whole session passing >>around little magazines and chapbooks that feature >>the turkiest of the young turks who are just >>dying to be converted into academic fossils >>before their time. Now this might seem like >>a cheap ploy to get free goodies (maybe on some >>dark, loathsome level of my unscrupulous psyche, >>it is--gasp), but anyone out there who would like >>to be a part of this great experiment might >>consider sending chapbooks of their work, or if >>they're editors, their magazines, etc. Consider >>it publicity. One editor has already expressed interest >>in possibly supplying several copies of a certain journal >>for the class, which is actually where I got the idea >>for this. I want to expose students not just to individual >>writers, but to a whole spectrum of material poetic production >>out there: self-publishing, small presses, broadsides, >>electronic formats (though I don't know if I'm going >>to be technologically capable of bringing web stuff >>to the classroom on a mass level), lo-fi and hi-res >>bookmaking, and so on. >> >>If anyone is interested in this hare-brained scheme, >>please b/c me for my address or further info or just >>to tell me what you think. >> >>Here's the syllabus: >> >>WEEK I >> >>Monday, June 19 >>Introduction (Lecture on Pound, Stein, Williams, Zukofsky, Oppen, Cage, >>etc.) >> >>Wednesday, June 21 >>Charles Olson >>Robert Creeley >>Jack Spicer >>Larry Eigner >> >>Friday, June 23 >>Allen Ginsberg >>Jack Kerouac >>Amiri Baraka >> >>WEEK II >> >>Monday, June 26 >>Frank O'Hara >>Barbara Guest >> >>Wednesday, June 28 >>John Ashbery >>Kenneth Koch >> >>Friday, June 30 >>Ron Padgett >>Kenward Elmslie >>Ted Berrigan >>Bernadette Mayer >> >>WEEK III >> >>Monday, July 3 >>Jackson MacLow >>Clark Coolidge >>Michael Palmer >> >>Wednesday, July 5 >>Ron Silliman >>Barrett Watten >>Robert Grenier >> >>Friday, July 7 >>Lyn Hejinian >>Leslie Scalapino >>Kathleen Fraser >> >>WEEK IV >> >>Monday, July 10 >>Susan Howe >>Hannah Weiner >>Joan Retallack >> >>Wednesday, July 12 >>Charles Bernstein >>Bob Perelman >>Bruce Andrews >> >>Friday, July 14 >>Nathaniel Mackey >>Rachel Blau DuPlessis >>Ray DiPalma >> >>WEEK V >> >>Monday, July 17 >>Will Alexander >>Myung Mi Kim >>Harryette Mullen >> >>Wednesday, July 19 >>Assorted poets: little magazines, small presses, chapbooks, web journals >> >>Friday, July 21 >>Poetry reading and cookies >> >> >>There ye have it. >> >>Cheers, >> >>K. >> >> >> >> >>--------------------------------- >>K. Silem Mohammad >>Santa Cruz, California >>(831) 429-4068 >> gaufred@leland.stanford.edu >>OR immerito@hotmail.com >>______________________________________________________ >>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 14:31:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harold Teichman Subject: Re: There are no things MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is pretty much what usually results when physicists mouth off philosophically: logorrhoea: > That's right. No thing exists, there are only actions. We live in a > world of verbs, and nouns are only shorthand for those verbs whose > actions are sufficiently stationary to show some thing-like behavior. > `"Correlations have physical reality; that which they > correlate does not.'" In other words, matter acts, but there are no > actors behind the actions; the verbs are verbing all by themselves > without a need to introduce nouns. Actions act upon other actions. I speak as one who spent his errant youth wanting to be a theoretical physicist, and who studied that subject at both under- and graduate level. I don't care if the author has a sinecure at the Institute for Advanced Satiety--these are the chaps who gave us thermonuclear weapons. This should be remembered by starry-eyed dharma bums with visions of 'verbal' quanta dancing like sugar-plums. The serious philosophical interpretation of quantum mechanics is about as vexed, contentious, indeterminate and aporetic as the interpretation of Jeremy Prynne. But it requires a *lot* more technical study. Quantum mechanics is a very impressive intellectual achievement and also has its aesthetic attractions (as a formalism, independent of specious interpretations), but it shouldn't be regarded as human nature's last word on nature. Nor should the babblings of professional scientists who happen to lend support to our own philosophical wishful thinking be taken very seriously. (And I'm as big an admirer of Pound's poetry as there is, but I think he was off-base in his Fenellosian semantics.) End of Physics for Poets (sorry for the rant). Thanks, Kent, for the reference to the website. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 12:39:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lowther, John" Subject: Poetry vs Prose MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" LONG POST responds to various backchannel queries re antin's references to poetry/prose in the previous "Language Art" posting consists primarily of a lengthy quote from david antin antin discusses and quotes from gertrude stein, and makes his case for poetry and prose not being "on the same plane" { p o e t i x } since my post "the Language Art" appeared in this forum i've received a number of backchannel messages about it, and as the majority of questions seem to revolve around the things that david says in the passages i quoted wrt poetry/prose, i thought to transcribe some other comments that he makes in that same article which bear on the questions asked of me ---- i havent taken the time to respond to all of you individually so if what follows doesnt clarify things for you, or if i have overlooked something please let me know ---- on the list even unless you really think that no one else wd be interested at the point where i cut in david is considering why it is that it took so long for stein's work to be dealt with adequately begin quote________ I'm not really sure why, though I think it was partly because of the genre problem, the question of what it was she was writing. You have to remember that at that time most of the American poetry avant-garde made a big thing of the distinction between "poetry" and "prose" and that Stein started out as a writer of narrative fiction, or at least she presented her early work in the context of the "story" and the "novel", which were generally considered "prose" forms. But by 1908 and 1909 she had embarked on a career that could not be defined in terms of "fiction". _Three Lives_ may superficially resemble the story genre, and she evokes a deliberate comparison with Flaubert; but her three "stories" are much less stories than the pieces in _Dubliners_ and much more language constructions. And if this is true at all for _Three Lives_, it became more and more true for _The Making of Americans_, and was quite clear in the portraits like _Ada_ or "Miss Furr and Miss Skeene" that what you had were language constructions not stories. Yet they were presented in a "prose" format---with capital letters beginning what look like sentences, periods closing them and periodic paragraphing. I've said it before, but I think it's worth saying again: prose is a kind of concrete poetry with justified margins. It is essentially characterized by the conventions of printing and the images of grammar and logic and order to which they give rise. But whatever it looks like, a characteristic passage from "Miss Furr and Miss Skeene" is poetry in any intelligent sense of the word: "There were some dark and heavy men there then. There were some who were not so heavy and some who were not so dark. Helene Furr and Georgine Skeene sat regularly with them. They sat regularly with the ones who were dark and heavy. They sat regularly with the ones who were not so dark. They sat regularly with the ones who were not so heavy. They sat with them regularly, sat with some of them. They went with them regularly, went with them. They were regular then, they were gay then, they were where they wanted to be then where it was gay to be then, they were regularly gay then..." This is a traditional phrase poetry in spite of the illusion of punctuation, with its seemingly orthodox commas and periods, that at times seem almost appropriate, but then become as irrelevant as flyspecks randomly distributed over a musical score. Stein's language is as difficult to contain within the page punctuation conventions of "prose" as _Beowolf_ or the _Iliad_, which were maddeningly punctuated even in scholarly editions. But these same scholarly editions are quite careful to present the line breaks that will assure you you are looking at "verse," which is not the same thing as "poetry" but almost the same thing for most people. Still there's no reason why Stein's prose punctuation should fool a poet, even though the prose costume probably contributed to the mistaken expectations for a certain type of narrative presentation that were from then on usually disappointed. ( . . . ) Still, the poetry of the portraits resembled sufficiently a poetry of incantations and litanies that, for a poet with as sensitive an ear and as generous sensibilities as Pound, was not really a problem. After all he recognized at least three different kinds of melopoeia, including the litany, and was willing to assume others as yet unknown to him (". . . and with the subject never really out of my mind I don't yet know half there is to know about melopoeia"). Pound may have been provincial, be he wasn't really an academic; or if he was an academic, he was academic in the only sense that ever gave a positive meaning to the word. I don't think the novelty of her work gave Williams any problems either but that's where the sympathy ended---with the Pound-Williams modernists. But even there the interest of her work was narrowly conceived, partly because these poets were surprisingly involved in the poetry/prose distinction, as most American poets seems to have been for the next fifty years. While the problem seems relatively trivial now with the 60s in back of us, it's easy to see that the meaning of poetry itself seemed to be at stake in the question thrown at all modernist poetry: "what separates it from prose?" Generally the poets who got into the argument took one of two tacks. They either made a problematic distinction between "poetry" and "prose," like Pound, or else, like Eliot, they made an apparently banal distinction between "verse" and "prose" and as far as possible declined the gambit of what "poetry" was. But Eliot, who was assuming what looked like an antimodernist position in his criticism, could afford to do this more easily than Pound or Williams, self-declared modernists, who had an obligation to define the scope of operations and the unique medium of "poetry," a term they were unwilling to surrender. The problem is an old one and the issues develop in the West along torturous lines filled with traps, sacrifices, tempo shifts and recoveries, all precipitated by the opening, which when handled by players of great sill on both sides of the questions leads to no significant outcome because the insolubility of the problem is built into the opening. The basic idea out of which the question opens is what seems like a commonsense observation: that poetry as usually practiced is different from ordinary discourse; the next two moves are to identify all ordinary language use as ordinary discourse and then to identify ordinary discourse as "prose"; from there on the game is predetermined except for blunders. The point is that it's worthwhile to question every single one of those assumptions. Even the first assumption, what is it? That poetry is different because it has a funny sound, a funny way of talking, and a funny way of thinking? Which is to say, it is distinguished by an arbitrary, conventional, overstructured phonological arrangement (if you like Jacobsonian formalism); and by eccentricities of syntax and eccentricities of semantic structure or mode of representation (figures of speech and figures of thought, if you like classical rhetorical notions). But "distinguished" from what? ordinary talk? It's possible to attack the whole notion of "ordinary talk" and watch it crumble, and that's my way, to assault the whole gambit ... end quote____________ from "some questions about modernism" in_Occident_ vol. 8, new series, spring 1974 pgs. 14 - 16 note : it may be that i have let my interlocutors down by not winging their questions myself --- sorry --- but this passage and the one posted earlier ("the language art" post) are at the root of my thinking in regard to these things and dont need, at least to my mind, much additional glossing --- (most "unoriginal" of me i'm sure) )L ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 11:54:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R M Daley Subject: Re: everyone and all (above posts) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII thanks for reading I'm pleased to present to anyone who backchannels with a snail-mailing address the current publication of TheLightsAreOut productions - to be delivered free of charge - an 8.5 by 11 packet simply staple bound and fully recyclable - anyone familiar with TheLightsAreOut knows these methods - so, Take a Risk! Today! it includes writing by Josh May (of TEMP, MOVIES FOR MOVIES (forthcoming from Spectacular Books) and HEAVEN and HELL fame) and James Sanders (um, APG, er, ferget it, oh nuff said) and some by myself (since i photocopy and post the damn thing) - with much love and pleasure, R.M.Daley@m.cc.utah.edu or TheLightsAreOut@yahoo.com ______________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, write to Subsubpoetics-unsubscribe@listbot.com ______________________________________________________________________ 466MHZ PC for ONLY $449! Get your PowerSpecPC 4610 with Intel Celeron 466MHz, 4GB-HD, 40XMaxCD-ROM, 56KModem, All for $449! Add 17 in. Monitor & Printer for only $209 (after MIR). MEI-Micro Center, America's Source for Computer Products since 1986! For details http://www.listbot.com/links/mei2 or call 1-888-480-4895 (Please Use ValueCode: PSEM005). ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 15:04:23 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: Power poetix Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Tom, Thanks for your thoughtful post. Your account of Bourdieu is useful, & there's nothing in it I take issue with. What I objected to is the sense, I found in Jacques' post, that poetic production can be reduced to a Bourdieuvian dynamic. Certainly I didn't & wouldn't disagree that such a dynamic is *one* of the factors at play-- a distinction which I think you've articulated very well. Clearly, "the poet who writes with no preconceived sense of poetic value and sends out work... entirely indiscriminately" IS naive! (& I didn't recognize what you meant by naive in your earlier post, so I'm glad you clarified). I don't even think it matters particularly the extent to which Bourdieu is "helpful" to poets-- not all theory has to be of direct use to practioners-- so long as in discussing him we make clear, as you do, the limits of his use. & You're right that the distinction between oppositonal & "academic/mainstream"-- in the Bourdieuvian sense!-- is becoming a little more fuzzy. I would only point out that this comes in the wake of over a century of "experimental/alternative" poetic activity, through which many practioners blew their chance at immediate cultural capital, so to speak, through a commitment to larger principles of engagement. --Mark DuCharme ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 00:57:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Entreaty MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII +++ Entreaty from nikuko Sun Feb 6 23:52:39 2000 Return-Path: Received: nikuko @localhost by oita.com.jp (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA00854 for root; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 23:52:39 -0500 Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 23:52:39 -0500 From:nikuko@oita. com.jp Message-Id: <200002070452.XAA00854@oita.com.jp> To:root@oita.com.jp Subject: search method Status: RO I'm looking for your root. know how it is, sometimes a moment passes - worlds have disappeard - because this is from nikuko, because I'm not running X, because I'm for root, because the beginnings of worlds lie in the Sector, someone has to know - beyond this there's an Interval; beyond the Interval, nothing, nikuko, here, in a moment or a movement of curse or cursor, here the root in the software or hardware, route in the software or bus in the hardware or protocol or there, in the dialog of curse or cursor, there, adding to the presence of the other or the root or then, adding from the other, then adding to the other File: "where" Size: 1015 Allocated Blocks: 2 Filetype: Regular File Mode: (0644/-rw-r--r--) Uid: ( 0/ root) Gid: ( 0/ root) Device: 7,7 Inode: 41029 Links: 1 Access: Mon Feb 7 00:43:07 2000 Modify: Mon Feb 7 00:43:21 2000 Change: Mon Feb 7 00:43:21 2000 write root tty1 Message from root@oita.com.jp on tty1 at 00:47 ... nikuko, coming in loud and clear, i hear you nikuko, coming in loud and clear, i hear you EOF _________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 07:36:12 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Dorn issue MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Congratulations to Ralph LaCharity's 86th issue of Worcs Aloud/Allowed. The quick and comprehensive collection of writers says much of LaCharity's work as a editor & poet over the years. This Ed Dorn issue gives many views that will probably not appear in subsequent homages to the poet. As a reader and contributor, I'll mention a few: The breadth of the material makes clear Dorn's range of impact in Ohio from his years as a teacher at Kent & Bowling Green to colleagues, students & students of his students. Not to say other areas are not represented, but I doubt future editors will take the time, or publish the people needed, to make this connection. Many fine remembrances were forwarded from mention of The Gathering in summer of 1997, a joyous multi-day reading in Portsmouth OH at Brian's house, which included, from my memory, nine of the folks in the issue plus many others. Letters, poems, & essays by Brian Richards, Charlie Potts, Gary David, Bill Levy, Skip Fox, Ray Obermayr, Linda & Ralph LaCharity, Stephen Ellis, Norm Ballinger, Paul Nelson, Richard Blevins, Joel Lipman, Jim Palmarini, Joe Napora, Joe Sadfie, Kurt Hemmer, Major Ragain, David Baratier, Dale Smith, Richard Silberg, Tom Raworth, Jeremy Prynne, Tom Clark, Robert Kelly, Bob Kaufman, Richard Loranger, Anne Marie-- For me, Rich Blevin's "December Rain" (first 6 lines here) is a fine piece-- The news is in forever all the many-mouthed agents for the singular moment essay on tongue appropriated for the occassion from the poet's estate, usufruct, in the days when the history of futures is fallen out of print & Brian Richards "Some Love Poems" has been read over and again since rec. Monday, a week ago. If he is willing to sell issues, there is only 100, try an sase of query to: POB 27309, Cincinnati, OH 45227. I mention it here, so someone years from now can know of it's existence. Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 07:49:19 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: Re: success MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tony, Apologies, again, for my uncivil tone b/c. de Duve is certainly relevant. The threat that looms over _Kant After Duchamp_ is the possibility that, following from Duchamp's readymades, there might come a time when a blank canvas would be considered an entirely persuasive work of art. It has been a few years since I read the de Duve, and I did not have Bourdieu in mind then, so it is difficult for me to say now whether de Duve recuperates Bourdieu, or whether one might consider his work a supplement to Bourdieu's, but I do intend to read _Kant After Duchamp_ again. It's a wonderful suggestion. You write: "However, anyone who has ever studied the arts closely will know that to substantiate any judgements there is an elaborate & complex preliminary phase of working. In most critical processes one would suppose a very close attention to how the medium is worked, how it engages a reading with its representations & how it engages with its interrogations & uses & discoveries in & of the medium. This may take a long time -- & in that time the Subject is submitting itself to the enigmatic & hitherto unknown otherness of the poem or picture - whatever -- being looked into." First, this is certainly right, but I don't think it is inconsistent with my position. It describes both 1. the acquistion of cultural capital--by which I mean the appreciation for or competence in deciphering the code in which cultural artifacts have been encrypted, and 2. the habitus --or feeling for the game--that disposes agents to certain perceptions and practices and not to others. But the dilemna de Duve lays out & which is most relevant to Bourdieu is, in part, this: How does a urinal, say, or a shovel, or coat rack become, simply through the artist's nomination, a work of art? Or 4 minutes and 33 seconds of silence? Or a single word (for instance Aram Saroyan's one word poems)? Bourdieu would say by an act of *magic* subtended by a whole tradition leading up to these gestures & legitimized by a *belief* in the charismatic ideology celebrated by that tradition. Thus, Duchamp's sacreligious nomination of a urinal as a work of art, in becoming consecrated in the 1960s through the struggles for symbolic capital & the objective relations internal to the field of art, provided the basis for a new belief injected with "meaning and value by commentary and commentary on commentary." Rather than being an exception, the readymade exposes the illusion of artistic value as a collective misrepresentation. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 08:16:02 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: Re: why write poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark D., Actually, I would be glad if my posts made writing more, not less difficult, and the reasons for writing less and less apparent. Writing poems has already become something which is much too *easy* to do--one of the unspoken scandals of alternative poetry. (And, just so this is not misinterpreted, let me quickly add Mark that I read your poems w/ a lot of pleasure.) While you're right, I do come off a little like someone giving a seminar, your insisting on what *I* think hints at (while most of the criticisms of my positions here plainly show) how pervasive romantic and essentialist ideologies are in the alt poetry world--& it's not that people are overwhelmingly unconvinced by me (that is, it's not necessarily that I think I'm *right*), rather it's the *reasons* given by so many (not all) for their disagreement w/ me that I find enormously revealing. (Revealing, not in the sense that I necessarily want to stigmatize these ideologies either, but that they are inconsistent w/ whatever fantasy these people have about themselves in relation to *innovation*--where innovation is understood by *them* to be a positive term.) It isd a house of cards. Far from being distinct from the mainstream, the ideology of much contemporary experimental poetry seems to be underlied by a largely essentialist view of poetic talent (but w/out, contradictorily, any reliance on aesthetic standards and values--this is precisely what is suppressed by our "inclusiveness", matched in the wider culture by the bad-faith of pluralism--see Hal Foster) and thus legitimized *only* by our own version of the cult of celebrity. (Not to be misunderstood, I am not criticizing the lack of standards. Rather, standards are what the logic of an essentialist position demands & I am just pointing this out.) I would be behaving in bad-faith if I were at this point to continue and give anyone reasons for writing poetry. Nor am I the slightest bit interested in reforming the poetry world or writing ridiculous (& ironic I hope) manifestos. Again, for now, I am wondering, for myself (as I do write "poems") *how* to write inside this impossible space I've laid out, not yet *why*. --jacques ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 09:06:16 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: Re: Berrigan's Cigar and Lemon Shoppe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Brian, I've just answered 2 other posts & I feel my energy flagging, so let me just scratch the surface of your note, saving the best parts (Berrigan et al) for another day. (Btw I just read maybe the most revealing interview about 70s poetry--a conversation between Mike Magee & Bill Berkson--in COMBO magazine which I know you have at hand Brian as you have some great poems there as well.) Let me start, though, by telling you that I began graduate school specializing in the Victorian novel, so I am quite familiar w/ the thoroughly conventionalized protocol of death bed scenes which reach their apotheosis during this period. & "last words" are also a kind of sub genre, aren't they? Everyone knows Goethe's "More Light," & my favorite--Mishima's suicide note--"Life is short, but I would like to live forever." These are part & parcel of the legitimizing traditions of belief in the consecrated artist. Nor, do I doubt WCW's sincerity--sincerity is, as Bourdieu says, "one of the preconditions of symbolic efficacy." But part of what we miss in retrospect, when looking back at a poet's career, is a feel for the habitus, how precisely & for what stakes, & in what context, did the poet play the game. You write about WCW, "he had made an investment in one particular aspect of his own game, which is the reduction of his poems to typographical creations, to words bashed out by an old whatever, Smith Corona, devoid, in their most radical moments, of the sort of poly-referentiality and "deep" meanings of Pound and Eliot and whatever the establishment represented, devoid of homages to past forms, whether in terms of rhymes, meters, stanzas . . ." Well, yes, but while all of this is, again, not at all inconsistent w/ my earlier posts, I'm not going to go there this time. Instead, inasmuch as you can get perhaps an even better sense of how a poet plays the game through the context in which he/she promotes the work of friends--though this is what is *lost* over time because its seen as inconsequential--I thought it would be interesting to paste to this post a sample of some excreably conventional work carried in OTHERS (which a friend passed on to me) Maxwell Bodenheim, for example, was a constant presence in the magazine: I shall turn and feel upon my feet The kisses of Death, like scented rain." This is an entirely typical couplet, my friend tells me. Schofield Thayer was another completely banal & thoroughly trite writer. But, now, Wallace Gould is in a league of his own: "Sing, nigger in the distance. coming up the hill. Sing to the broom, the watermelon, the wind, the moon, the paradise of niggers, the god of niggers..." Oh my God! I don't have time to make more of this, if in fact *anything* can be made of it, except to say that it's the neglected, forgotten, trivial aspects of a poet's career--WCW certainly knew these poems were awful--just as much as the sublimated aspects, that constitute the habitus. --jacques ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 07:59:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Anne Carson/Renee Gladman UC Berkeley Holloway Poetry Reading Series Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hello everyone, Chris Chen asked me to forward this announcement to the Poetics List. If you are coming to the Bay Area here's another good reading on Thursday (besides the Irby/Grenier reading announced earlier) --- [Kevin Killian] Holloway Poetry Series Reading Reading begins at 8 pm Maude Fife Room (3rd Floor, Wheeler Hall) Thursday February 10 FREE ADMISSION Opening Reader: Renee Gladman San Francisco poet who has published two chapbooks, Arlem (Idiom Press) and Not Right Now (Second Story Books). Her first perfect bound book, Juice, is forthcoming from Kelsey St. Press. Editor of Clamour, a journal for experimental writing for queer women of color, and creator of the chapbook press, Leroy. *** Featured Poet: Anne Carson Poet, translator and classical scholar. Author of Eros the Bittersweet: An Essay, Glass, Irony and God and Economy of the Unlost : (Reading Simonides of Keos With Paul Celan). Her most recent book, Autobiography of Red: A Novel in Verse, was nominated for the National Book Critics Circle Award in Poetry. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HOW TO GET TO UC BERKELEY Visitor Services (for questions): 101 University Hall 510-642-5215 510-642-INFO visitor_info@pa.urel.berkeley.edu Campus Map: http://www.berkeley.edu/campus_map/ From Northbound Highway 101 (San Francisco/Daly City) Follow 101 North and then switch to 80 East, San Francisco/Oakland Bay Bridge After the Bay Bridge,Exit to I-80 East (Berkeley/Sacramento) Exit on University Avenue Continue East on University Avenue for approximately 1.5 miles to Oxford Street From Highway 24 From Highway 24 exit Telegraph Ave. Continue on Telegraph until it dead ends at the campus on Bancroft. Make a left on Bancroft. Make a right on Fulton, which will be come Oxford St in 2 blocks. Continue on Oxford to University. From Westbound Highway 13 Highway 13 becomes Tunnel Road Continue on Tunnel Road. Tunnel Road becomes Ashby Avenue near the Claremont Hotel Turn right at Shattuck Avenue Turn right at University Avenue and continue east one block to Oxford Street. From I-80 East or West Exit University Avenue Continue east on University Avenue for approximately 1.5 miles to Oxford Street From Westbound I-580 Exit I-80 East (to Berkeley, Sacramento) Exit at University Avenue Continue east on University Avenue for approximately 1.5 miles to Oxford Street From North I-880 (San Jose; Hayward; Oakland Airport) Stay in left center lanes Exit 80 East (to Berkeley) Exit at University Avenue Continue East on University Avenue for approximately 2 miles to Oxford Street ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 07:59:16 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Et tu, Brutus? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Will the Greatest Story Ever Told Be From a Computer? --- Brutus Program Crafts Tales Of Deceit and Betrayal; Don't Call It Literature Wall Street Journal, February 7, 2000 TROY, N.Y. (AP) Brutus creates stories about lies, self-deception and acts of betrayal. There is no dark muse inspiring Brutus, though. No torturous plumbing of the writer's soul. Brutus is, after all, a computer blueprint. The program based on the blueprint, Brutus.1, can write stories because its creators have condensed the complexities of deceit and double-crosses into mathematical equations it can understand. Characters and facts of the story are fed into Brutus.1, and out comes 500-word tales that read very much like human prose. "Dave Striver loved the university," Brutus.1 begins one tale. "He loved the ivy-covered clock towers, its ancient and sturdy brick and its sun-splashed verdant greens and eager youth." The prose isn't exactly the caliber of E. Annie Proulx, or even Danielle Steel. But in an age when computers can already read, talk and beat chess champions, Brutus.1's small literary success raises a big question: Can computers write good stories? "I get e-mails from terrified people," says Brutus's co-creator Selmer Bringsjord, director of the Minds and Machines Lab at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. Researchers such as Mr. Bringsjord have been trying to get machines to write like humans for decades, with mixed success. In the 1970s, a pioneering storytelling machine spun simplistic tales like "Once upon a time John Bear lived in a cave. John knew that John was in his cave . . ." Brutus.1, in comparison, can write much more sophisticated prose. But after seven years of development, Brutus.1 remains a limited writer. It only produces stories in the 500-word range. The only setting it describes is academia. And Brutus.1, named for the famous conspirator against Caesar, only can write about betrayal and related acts. That is partly due to the creators' preferences. Mr. Bringsjord notes the dark side can be more fascinating. But there is another important reason: Brutus.1 doesn't understand love. If you go to the good side of things, you have to figure out love, and we have no idea how to do that, Mr. Bringsjord said. Betrayal, on the other hand, was something Mr. Bringsjord and co-creator David Ferrucci of International Business Machine's T.J. Watson Research Center felt they could reduce to mathematical formulas. In Brutus.1's world, the act of hoodwinking is expressed in part like this: "X betrays Y if and only if there is something Z that Y wants." Characters progress through a series of these formulas like pinballs, creating the narrative. Little tweaks of the formula change where the story goes. The story comes out looking like proper English because Brutus.1 has been "reverse-engineered" fed information about what a story looks like. Grammatical rules on how to construct a sentence were given to Brutus.1. It knows rules of thumb for fiction, such as where to place quotes. And Brutus.1 will dab in touches of color to give a sense of setting clock towers, eager students, etc. The resulting prose can look a bit purple: "A wave of hatred rose up and flowed like molten blood through every cell in his body." And it can sound stilted: "To become a doctor, one must pass an oral examination on one's dissertation." But on the whole it reads like human prose. During a recent online fiction contest, just a quarter of the people who gave a guess pegged the computer's story among the five competing entries. However, Brutus.1's entry also was the least favorite among the readers. Why the discouraging reviews? It might have to do with what Mr. Bringsjord calls "lexical choice" -- that is, choosing the right words that make sentences flow. It is why "To be or not to be?" sounds so much better than "Should I kill myself?" The problem is programming a computer to make those choices. Kathleen McCoy, a University of Delaware computer scientist involved in creating systems that create natural-sounding sentences, said a key problem is people can recognize good writing but have a hard time defining why it is good. "It may be perfectly grammatical and even the thoughts it may be getting across may be reasonable," she said. "But it doesn't look like real text." Still, natural-language researchers have been making strides in creating systems to generate picture captions, summaries of multiple newspaper articles, post-operative medical reports and electronic museum guides. Kathy McKeown, a Columbia University professor who is a leader in the field, notes that word choices are much more complicated in fiction. The feeling among many experts is that the Great Computer Novel won't be possible for many years, if ever. Mr. Bringsjord said Brutus.1 or its successors might knock off some sort of formulaic fiction, such as an action-movie script or a narrative for an interactive video game. But after seven years of work, he concludes first-rate storytelling will always be the sole province of human masters ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 12:15:21 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: exemplary success (Jackson MacLow) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just quickly, to bring various of my points home, let me bring up the example of Jackson Maclow's _42 Merzgedichte in Memoriam Kurt Schwitters. This book, largely composed through chance operations, is a work that in a real sense *anyone* could write running Scwitter's writing through the TRAVESTY or DIASTEXT programs. A passage, quoted entirely at random, forcibly shows this: nd was more successful wit h found than with fabricate d el ements. man-made hil I "Schacko" Hulsendadai smus = Husk Dadaism advert ising de s . . . and so on. My purpose is *not* that MacLow's book, or similar experiments cannot be extremely interesting, but rather to think for a moment about the work's reception. It almost goes without saying that had Jacques Debrot-- or any of thousands of other poets--written _In Memorium_ (& in fact many have--texts written w/ TRAVESTY proliferate everywhere) the book would certainly *not* have been published by Station Hill Press (or likely anywhere). But in fact, not only was _In Memorium_ published, it won Sun & Moon's America Award for best small press book of 1995. *Ironic that work which attempts to de-authorize the author's authority, depends for its very existence on that authority.* But this is to stop too soon. For what ultimately authorizes a book is the cultural bussinessman/woman--or publisher. It is he/she who creates the creator. Indeed, a relatively small number of publishers (those associated w/ the most prestigious presses) have a kind of unchecked power to determine & shape the field of alternative poetry--unchecked in the sense that there is an alternative press scene that churns out positive reviews enthusiastically ratifying any editorial decision these people make. But, it's funny, even though these arbiters are largely *self-appointed* (distinguished largely by their access to economic capital), the audience for experimental poetry never questions *how* or *why* the determination is made that X's or Y's judgement of aesthetic value will be/or should be a decisive one. --jacques ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 15:09:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Taylor Brady and Diane Ward Reading at SPT 2/11 / Saidenberg MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message had to be reformatted. Chris -- From: jocelyn saidenberg Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 11:55:02 -0800 Small Press Traffic Reading Friday, February 11, 7:30 p.m. Taylor Brady Diane Ward Taylor Brady is a recent emigre to San Francisco, having spent many years in the Poetics Program at SUNY Buffalo. Publications include a chapbook, Is Placed/Leaves, from Meow Press (1996), and recent poems in Rampike, kenning, Ribot, and Mirage #4/Period(ical). His writing inhabits a world that allows for larger, theoretical critique which at the same time register personal calibrations, so that politics, love, community are all at stake in the work and the reading. Poetry lovers have been holding their collective breath awaiting Brady's work-in-progress, a book of poems, prose narratives and critical writing, Phones, Poles, What to Say When Stepping On Broken Plastic in the Intersection, and Then Again a Hail of Needles in the Notional Forest. This is his first reading in San Francisco. Diane Ward owns and controls one of the distinctive voices in America. A page of hers is like an illuminated manuscript by Balzac, replete with colors, senses, sounds and smells, that chronicle the domestic, noting its intersection with the large social sphere. Most recently Diane Ward has written Portraits and Maps (forthcoming 1999 from ML & NLF, Italy), Imaginary Movie (Potes & Poets), Human Ceiling, Relation and Never Without One the latter three from Roof Books. Her work has appeared in Crayon, Conjunctions, How(ever), Big ALLIS, Raddle Moon, The World, and in the anthologies Out of Everywhere, Moving Borders, the Norton Anthology of Postmodern American Poetry and From the Other Side of the Century: A New American Poetry 1960-1990. New College Cultural Center 766 Valencia Street, San Francisco $5 ---------------------------------------- Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center 766 Valencia Street San Francisco, CA 94110 415/437-3454 www.sptraffic.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 12:36:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Tabbi Subject: ebr10: writing under constraint (announcement) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" announcing ! ! ! ^ a new issue of the electronic book review **writing under constraint** now available at the altx web site www.altx.com/ebr the winter 1999/2000 issue - the last issue to be gathered under the constraint of periodical publication - features: -->five new essays on 'writing under constraint' (in print, online, and in other cognitive environments) -->fifteen further contributions on media theory, poetics, hypertext -->new fiction by Harry Mathews the editors (ebr@uic.edu) invite readers to join the newly established listserv,'media-ecology,' where we will discuss ebr's second design overhaul in four years and begin assembling a reader database, towards the re-emergence of ebr as a full-fledged hypertext ebr10 issue contents --------------------------------------- --------------------------------------- --------------------------------------- Paul Braffort considers constrained writing from Henry Adams to ALAMO http://www.altx.com/ebr/ebr10/10bra.htm --------------------------------------- issue editor Jan Baetens reviews Federman A to X-X-X-X: A Recyclopedic Narrative http://www.altx.com/ebr/reviews/rev10/r10bae.htm --------------------------------------- Bernardo Schiavetta provides a 2000-word definition of writing under constraint. http://www.altx.com/ebr/ebr10/10sch.htm --------------------------------------- Paul Harris writes on constraints, cognition, and the Oulipo http://www.altx.com/ebr/ebr10/10har.htm --------------------------------------- Stephane Susana visits web sites that take seriously the constraints of the electronic environment. http://www.altx.com/ebr/ebr10/10sus.htm --------------------------------------- Mister Smathers: a short fiction by Harry Mathews http://www.altx.com/ebr/ebr10/10sma.htm electropoetics (continuing the thREAD begun in ebr5) --------------------------------------- --------------------------------------- --------------------------------------- Brian Lennon considers the procedural poetries of Joan Retallack --------------------------------------- Elisabeth Joyce reads Susan Howe's Guide to Orienteering in the Adirondacks -------------------------------------- John Matthias reports on the state of British poetry and its criticism at Y2K (the first in a series of overview essays for the year) critical ecologies (continuing the thREAD begun in ebr4) ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- Laura Dassow Walls finds noted biologist E. O. Wilson to be more Christian in outlook than the Reverend William Whewell, who originated the term, 'consilience' http://www.altx.com/ebr/ebr10/10wal.htm ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce Clarke reviews Friedrich Kittler's Grammophone, Film, Typewriter http://www.altx.com/ebr/reviews/rev10/r10cla.htm ----------------------------------------------------- Joseph Tabbi identifies a 'medial turn' during the seven-year span between the publication of Susan Strehle's Fiction in the Quantum Universe and John Johnston's Information Multiplicity http://www.altx.com/ebr/reviews/rev10/r10tab.htm ----------------------------------------------- Shirin Shenassa situates Roman de la Campa's Latin Americanism within the critical discourses of the world's metropolitan centers and introduces a new thREAD into ebr's Internet Nation series http://www.altx.com/ebr/reviews/rev10/r10she.htm ------------------------------------------------- Jan van Looy reviews Silvio Gaggi's study of hypertext fiction http://www.altx.com/ebr/reviews/rev10/r10van.htm ------------------------------------------------------ Luc Herman reviews the collection, Cyberspace Textuality http://www.altx.com/ebr/reviews/rev10/r10her.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------- Thomas Hartl reviews Ron Sukenick's Mosaic Man http://www.altx.com/ebr/reviews/rev10/r10har.htm --------------------------------------------------------------- Cynthia Davidson reviews Sex for the Millennium by Harold Jaffe http://www.altx.com/ebr/reviews/rev10/r10dav.htm --------------------------------------------------------------- Linda Brigham breaks the first rule of Fight Club and talks about what the movie industry keeps secret - not male masochism, anti-corporate terrorism, self-help, or even heterosexual anxiety, but how best to deliver a commodity that doesn't act like one. http://www.altx.com/ebr/reviews/rev10/r10bri.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------ Timothy Melley reviews Mark Fenster's book on conspiracies, factual and fictional, and finds evidence against the assumption that only nonexistent conspiracies produce conspiracy theories. http://www.altx.com/ebr/reviews/rev10/r10mel.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------ William O'Rourke goes on the beat of the Clinton beat http://www.altx.com/ebr/reviews/rev10/r10oro.htm ! ! ! ^ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 12:58:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathy Gold Subject: annoucement from kg's poetry corner Comments: To: hip-chick@usa.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear All, Hope you have a great new year and for those of you that got sick, had a prompt and painless recovery. Anyhoo on to the news: my poetry site has moved to: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Rooftop/3237/ so please bookmark the new address I've also added a message board so you can post messages, poems, prose etc on the board or just simply say hi! And last but now least I've add 3 new poems for the new year, you can check out on the What's new page. Keep Writing, Kathy Gold please respond to hip-chick@usa.net as that is my new address. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 14:13:20 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Feb 14 DesireGram MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit desire http://workxspace.de/valentine/desire/ -text-voice-music-viewable-readable-listenable-linear-non-linear-compilation- (for NS/IE >4 + RealAudioG2) _____________________________________________________________ martha cinder-voice | miekal and-text/audio | reiner strasser-design ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 15:36:40 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: poetry syllabus Comments: To: gaufred@leland.stanford.edu In-Reply-To: <20000203180220.2492.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear K. Silem Mohammad, I use Hoover as well but supplement the selection with my own more or less every class. You don't say what level the course is. In general though I feel you are trying to teach too many poets in a short time--I'd cut the list by two-thirds, one poet per session. Good luck, Wystan Curnow > Hi List, > > I'm going to be teaching a course at UC Santa Cruz > this summer on Contemporary American Poetry, > and I thought it might be useful/ interesting/ > inflammatory/etc. to run a draft of my syllabus > past anyone out there who has nothing better to do > than my work for me. (BTW, I'm cross-posting > this to both the subsub and Beefalo lists.) > > It's a five-week intensive course that meets > three times a week for two and a half hours a day, > and an obvious problem is fitting as much in > as possible without overloading the students > (most of whom will probably be pretty new > to [insert your favorite adjective here] poetry). > That goal may ultimately be impossible, but > I'd love to get feedback on this. > > The selections here are largely but not exclusively > from Paul Hoover's Norton anthology, > _Postmodern American Poetry_. Since I want to keep > the required texts affordable, I'm trying to limit > them to Hoover and a photocopied course reader > (although I'm tempted to require Ashbery's > _Tennis Court Oath_, Hejinian's _My Life_, > and Will Alexander's _Towards the Primeval > Lightning Field_, among others, in their entirety). > I'm trying also to limit the content of the reader > to critical texts as much as possible (e.g. excerpts > from Spicer's dictation lecture, Silliman's > _New Sentence_, the passage from Jameson's > _Postmodernism_ on Perelman's "China, " > Bernadette Mayers' writing experiments, etc.), > but there are some poems Hoover doesn't include > that I just have to put in--Ashbery's "Daffy Duck > in Hollywood," Coolidge's "Bee Elk," and so on. > > That much being said, I'd like especially to hear > from people about what kinds of things they > think should be taught about the poets I've listed, > and even about what poets I should be whipped > for omitting (or, I guess, for _not_ omitting) > Of course, it's simply not possible to fit everyone in > that I'd like to. I've reluctantly disincluded biggies like > Robert Duncan, Denise Levertov, Ed Dorn, > James Schuyler, Rosmarie Waldrop, Steve McCaffery, > Johanna Drucker, David Bromige, David Antin-- > you get the idea. Some of these are favorites > of mine, and there might be persuasive > arguments for putting some of them back; > but then who gets the axe? Such power! > > Keep in mind that I've subtitled the course "from Beat > to Postlanguage" (note: I definitely _will_ acknowledge > the contested status of that second label), and > that my more or less arbitrary starting point is poets > who were fairly new in the '50s. Hence no readings > from Stein, Zukofsky, etc.; though maybe I'll print > up some handouts for the first day. > > I must admit to feeling a little guilty that > the reading list seems kind of doctrinaire--like > a kind of official unofficial verse culture primer. > I've left out poets I'm crazy about, to be honest, > simply because I don't know quite what to do > with them (e.g., Diane Wakoski, James Tate, > Russell Edson). Still, I feel pretty settled on > the basic selection rationale, which largely > consists of sampling the Don Allen _New American > Poetry_ categories plus Second Gen New York School, > Language, and whatever it is that has grown out of / > around / on top of that. > > Another thing: you'll surely notice that > with one or two exceptions, the poets on this > syllabus are all grown up and already canonized at some level, > either to the point of godhood (Ginsberg, Ashbery) > or a slightly less Olympian but still "recognized" > cult status (DiPalma, Elmslie). I've reserved a day-- > yes, one measly day--at the end of the five weeks > to look at some more recent and less known writers: > that is, many of the persons who subscribe to this list. > Rather than face the hideous prospect of singling > out individual authors from among the vast foamy > sea of talent out there, I thought I'd try something > a little different: spend a whole session passing > around little magazines and chapbooks that feature > the turkiest of the young turks who are just > dying to be converted into academic fossils > before their time. Now this might seem like > a cheap ploy to get free goodies (maybe on some > dark, loathsome level of my unscrupulous psyche, > it is--gasp), but anyone out there who would like > to be a part of this great experiment might > consider sending chapbooks of their work, or if > they're editors, their magazines, etc. Consider > it publicity. One editor has already expressed interest > in possibly supplying several copies of a certain journal > for the class, which is actually where I got the idea > for this. I want to expose students not just to individual > writers, but to a whole spectrum of material poetic production > out there: self-publishing, small presses, broadsides, > electronic formats (though I don't know if I'm going > to be technologically capable of bringing web stuff > to the classroom on a mass level), lo-fi and hi-res > bookmaking, and so on. > > If anyone is interested in this hare-brained scheme, > please b/c me for my address or further info or just > to tell me what you think. > > Here's the syllabus: > > WEEK I > > Monday, June 19 > Introduction (Lecture on Pound, Stein, Williams, Zukofsky, Oppen, Cage, > etc.) > > Wednesday, June 21 > Charles Olson > Robert Creeley > Jack Spicer > Larry Eigner > > Friday, June 23 > Allen Ginsberg > Jack Kerouac > Amiri Baraka > > WEEK II > > Monday, June 26 > Frank O'Hara > Barbara Guest > > Wednesday, June 28 > John Ashbery > Kenneth Koch > > Friday, June 30 > Ron Padgett > Kenward Elmslie > Ted Berrigan > Bernadette Mayer > > WEEK III > > Monday, July 3 > Jackson MacLow > Clark Coolidge > Michael Palmer > > Wednesday, July 5 > Ron Silliman > Barrett Watten > Robert Grenier > > Friday, July 7 > Lyn Hejinian > Leslie Scalapino > Kathleen Fraser > > WEEK IV > > Monday, July 10 > Susan Howe > Hannah Weiner > Joan Retallack > > Wednesday, July 12 > Charles Bernstein > Bob Perelman > Bruce Andrews > > Friday, July 14 > Nathaniel Mackey > Rachel Blau DuPlessis > Ray DiPalma > > WEEK V > > Monday, July 17 > Will Alexander > Myung Mi Kim > Harryette Mullen > > Wednesday, July 19 > Assorted poets: little magazines, small presses, chapbooks, web journals > > Friday, July 21 > Poetry reading and cookies > > > There ye have it. > > Cheers, > > K. > > > > > --------------------------------- > K. Silem Mohammad > Santa Cruz, California > (831) 429-4068 > gaufred@leland.stanford.edu > OR immerito@hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 13:24:28 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Kelley Subject: Feb 10th at Scottsdale Center for the Arts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan Featherston asked me to forward this: > Subject: reminder of Feb 10th at Scottsdale Center for the Arts > > Poet Sheila Murphy and Celtic harpist Megha Morganfield will perform a free > concert that features the fusion of voiced poetry and folk harp music together > > 8 p.m Thursday February 10th > > Hope to see you there! > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 15:46:46 -0400 Reply-To: couroux@videotron.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marc Couroux & Juliana Pivato Organization: O'Tavip-Xuoruoc Productions Subject: Nicole Brossard MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dear list, I am looking for an email/phone/snail address for Nicole Brossard. I am in the process of setting one of her poems to music. Thank you, Michael Oesterle ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 14:00:02 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Kelley Subject: Re: Titles / Dinsmore MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not reading too much "meaning" into something doesn't mean it's meaningless. We were asked what we thought of museum title-cards, so I figured an opinion was the way to go. The audience (and maybe writers?) often seems to overvalue titles, is all I meant to say. And esp. if the work is difficult. Eva Hesse, in my opinion, someone who solved the artwork/title problem nicely. I'm all for titles, Hirst's flamboyant "The Physical Impossibility of Death in the Mind of Someone Living" a particular favorite, in that I find it much more evocative than the artwork itself. ---------- > From: Claire Dinsmore > Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 18:11:45 -0500 > > Is it not obvious that this is a (very subjective) opinion? I do not agree > at > all that the titles in visual art are 'meaning'less. I am a visual artist > and > my titles are of immense importance to me and, I hope, to the work. It is a > different language (obviously) and one which I enjoy hinging upon the power > of. Visual language, especially abstract, is also less 'readable' to most > and > a title can sometimes assist in 'grounding' a work to a viewer without a > reference point. The titles are often referential, symbolic -- telling in an > obscure, poetic or obvious manner (depending on meaning / effect / intent) > and > adding a dimension which I find quite vital in both creating and > experiencing > (visual and otherwise) art. My opinion and/or actions are the same when it > comes to poetry -- the titles always come after the completion of the piece > and > are often simply one word which references the aura, as it were, of the poem > in > total. They are often hints, suggestive and/or misleading, openings, > invitations plumbing the semiological depths ... (please note: all expressed > with the sensibilities a of drama queen who loves the word; and, of course, > a > subtle sense of humour in tow.) > > and: in a lot of visual art created in the last 10 years especially, you > will > note the predominance of text (or implied text) -- it's means/media sought > by > many an artist to describe/accentuate the indelibility of the 'trace,' the > 'mark ...' > > Claire Dinsmore > > Karen Kelley wrote: > > > the card on the wall. there for viewer orientation, and best not too > > precious or obvious, unless blatantly utilitarian. probably best not > > to take the card too seriously, read in too much "meaning." just there to > > make people feel a bit more secure & comfortable by offering the semblance > > of "context"-- nothing (in my book) wrong with that. my titles generally > > whatever I call the poem to myself when I'm writing it. > > -- > "What am I, if not a collector of vanished gazes?" > - Theo Angelopoulos > http://www.StudioCleo.com/entrancehall.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 10:31:47 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Subject: Re: success MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It may be an act of nomination that begins the process of something becoming a work of art, but the test wd be its use. I read an article (published where?) by my Auckland colleague Stephen Davies, in which he was demonstrating that Cage's 4 mins 33 secs is not a piece of music. One stumbling block for him, I recall -- & this is some time ago & memory-approximate -- was that he could not imagine what an audience would do with the "silence" even when juxtaposed with the pianist gestures of proposing to perform a piece & ending one. Maybe maybe maybe The Ready-Made exposes misrepresentation etc. Do recall though that Marcel Duchamp was very choosy about his ready-mades. There weren't many of them, not everything was appropriate for ready-made; that they are nearly always rotated or otherwise altered from their usual postures; that they did always go with a text (a title); that they were found serendipitously; in short that they are very particular & each is specific in its workings. A bicycle wheel inverted on a wooden stool, for instance is as different in its effect from a row of coat-hooks attached to a floor, as stilled rotation -- the effect of spokes seen in motion & spokes seen stilled -- as stumbling & stubbing one's toe on a small obstacle on a gallery floor. I always make a point of setting the bicycle wheels in motion -- because the rotation & stillness is a factor in their being ready-mades. But this has to be done surreptitiously because of the "dont touch" rule in art galleries. I havent been caught & ejected from a gallery yet. I am not content to move to theoretical generalizations about Ready-Mades & the big question of Nomination, if they are to by-pass the simplest of critical attentions to -- in this case -- Duchamp's practice. It is not clear that painted pictures in galleries are not works of art by a process of nomination also. I am far more satisfied by noticing that there are paintings & writings, which are proposed, some of them as artworks, some of them not, & some but not all of those proposed are interesting & also that some that are not so proposed are. Is it impossible to let the problem of definition: of whether something is an artwork or not, rest in its philosophical space? I am not convinced that the attempt to arrive at answers has been of much use. & to then make use of such answers as have been proposed in a would-be scientific sociology sounds to me just a little dubious as an operation. best Tony Green ----Original Message----- From: Jacques Debrot To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Tuesday, 8 February 2000 09:19 Subject: Re: success >Tony, > >Apologies, again, for my uncivil tone b/c. de Duve is certainly relevant. >The threat that looms over _Kant After Duchamp_ is the possibility that, >following from Duchamp's readymades, there might come a time when a blank >canvas would be considered an entirely persuasive work of art. It has been a >few years since I read the de Duve, and I did not have Bourdieu in mind then, >so it is difficult for me to say now whether de Duve recuperates Bourdieu, or >whether one might consider his work a supplement to Bourdieu's, but I do >intend to read _Kant After Duchamp_ again. It's a wonderful suggestion. > >You write: "However, anyone who has ever studied the arts closely will know >that > >to substantiate any judgements there is an elaborate & complex preliminary > >phase of working. In most critical processes one would suppose a very close > >attention to how the medium is worked, how it engages a reading with its > >representations & how it engages with its interrogations & uses & > >discoveries in & of the medium. This may take a long time -- & in that time > >the Subject is submitting itself to the enigmatic & hitherto unknown > >otherness of the poem or picture - whatever -- being looked into." > >First, this is certainly right, but I don't think it is inconsistent with my >position. It describes both 1. the acquistion of cultural capital--by which >I mean the appreciation for or competence in deciphering the code in which >cultural artifacts have been encrypted, and 2. the habitus --or feeling for >the game--that disposes agents to certain perceptions and practices and not >to others. > >But the dilemna de Duve lays out & which is most relevant to Bourdieu is, in >part, this: >How does a urinal, say, or a shovel, or coat rack become, simply through the >artist's nomination, a work of art? Or 4 minutes and 33 seconds of silence? >Or a single word (for instance Aram Saroyan's one word poems)? Bourdieu >would say by an act of *magic* subtended by a whole tradition leading up to >these gestures & legitimized by a *belief* in the charismatic ideology >celebrated by that tradition. Thus, Duchamp's sacreligious nomination of a >urinal as a work of art, in becoming consecrated in the 1960s through the >struggles for symbolic capital & the objective relations internal to the >field of art, provided the basis for a new belief injected with "meaning and >value by commentary and commentary on commentary." Rather than being an >exception, the readymade exposes the illusion of artistic value as a >collective misrepresentation. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 17:25:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Stefans, Brian" Subject: success Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" [Here's a post from Friday that somehow got dropped, along with some further blather from today. Please delete!] Just wanted to mention that Maria Damon's brief post kind of sums up a lot of what I meant in mine -- for her "diaries" I have "modest and/or shameful poets" like Hopkins who didn't publish, and for her "alpha male" I have (pardon me) Barrett Watten. I think Jacques makes some interesting points, though, in one of his follow-up emails, which is that he is using Bourdieu's frame of discourse not absolute as a mode of looking at "our" work [which I think he renders rather monolithically, unfortunately], but that it helps bring in focus many neglected aspects of this sort of discussion, hence it is merely a tool that can be put away at any time. The problem with a too-trusted frame of discourse is that it invariably affects the data, the literature or the biographies, that one is attempting to analyze; that is, the "realities" are created by the frames by which we choose to discuss them [they simply didn't exist prior to the frames and language]. The homo-erotic subtext of U.S. Open tennis matches, for example, simply didn't exist until I went to a match with a gay friend of mine, and he basically transformed the experience into something rather different, and in a sense a "total" interpretation. Consequently, we spend a lot of time trying to tell people what they are _really_ thinking and _really_ doing without spending the time to enter into this activity with a sense of detail, "luminous" detail, if you will. An example: when people were asking whether WCW as an "anti-semite," an answer just couldn't offer itself because the frame of the discourse didn't permit a suitable answer, it was either/or, and it seemed ridiculous to put WCW on one side with the Nazis and Ezra Pound, but not quite right to put him on the other. If you had none of the Puritan furor that characterizes some writers on writers, then the frame here is totally useless -- the statements are lifeless. The frame of the discourse should be malleable based on the topic or materials being examined; also, we should be satisfied with no answer. One of my problems with this thread is that there's not a lot of new data being presented, just revisions of the model of analysis, hence the frame grows more complex but the range of references becomes very isolated, and generalizations are tossed around, such as about the role of Donald Allen's anthology in the plays of cultural capital. My sense is that the role the anthology played in New York culture among those who were actively involved, i.e. "included", in it, was probably much smaller than what is made of it by us, the successors who view it as some sort of milestone. [Bourdieau seems, to me, to be writing the story of the "successors," the ones who look back, whereas I think the view from over here, the present, while not having the benefit of being based on the past and hence based on a close set of texts, is better and more complicated.] It probably wasn't a milestone to Frank O'Hara, he knew all that work (and probably thought a lot of it was terrible) -- just a drop in the bucket, something to chat about between movies -- there were more exciting things happening. As for how it might have given him more prestige among his peers and readers, it's probably safe to assume that, say when it came time to have a coke or have a lover, this prestige could have been a hindrance, or at least a non-entity. That the anthology was the shot heard around the world may not have meant much to him (just as we can probably agree that Rimbaud didn't care much for what the Season in Hell was doing to Paris when he was in his thirties, or Hopkins what his sonnets were doing in Bridges' underwear drawer). How, in this Bourdieau-ian scheme, in which the politics and symbolism of religion seem to have been entirely absorbed (the transubstantiantion of matter plays a role here, for when writing becomes "literature" and hence cultural capital, along with the near-paranoic interconnecitivity of motives and actions, at least as presented by Jacques), how does one then explain what is, in Hopkins, a tension between his life as a priest and his desire to write poetry, which he equated with earthly vanity? Or the tensions Dickinson felt -- her consciousness of this very issue was intense -- in writing her verse? Or Blake? In other words, how does it account for those spheres in which cultural capital can be acquired -- as any religious order or religious social system would have to be considered -- and where it is negated by the accessing of other cultural spheres which are destined to be unsatisfactory? I guess the problem is with envisioning a sort of totality for this cultural stage, and an inability, or unwillingness, to see the various blindnesses that exist between them. As for the "why write" question, one thing I might suggest is that one writes to render one's immediate environment either more predictable (Davidson/Rorty again) or more interesting, perhaps even more "stimulating" in a sexual way (somewhat different that the idea of the poem as unalienated labor, which is worth mentioning since my own computer-poems are very alienated labor, but I think they're "stimulating" to me to have in the environment). This basic idea encapsulates, I think, the idea of writing as the creation of "cultural capital" since one is writing to propel oneself further on some path toward, on the one hand, self-identity ("predictability" from day-to-day, satisfaction) which one perhaps mistakenly believes comes throught public recognition, and the chance to enter new spheres of being (getting a little reknown, going to better parties), on other words in changing one's lifestyle (because one thinks that having money and being famous is more interesting than not). But it also takes in those writers who don't operate in any of these ways, such as those who keep poems in diaries and those who, in a different light, write some version of pornography for themselves just to keep them going (such as R. Crumb, or his brother who, in the documentary about Crumb, wrote line after line of tiny type which was not legible to anyone), or those whose writing, like Edward Taylor's, were spiritual excercises in preparation for sermons. But that's just an idea. Maybe, in sum, the problem with this framework is that it envisions all writing as _productive_ and doesn't take into consideration inversion, or "perversion", i.e. that which is rejected by the symbolic system -- can an author with a sense of the "habitus" etc. write "perversely" or "inversely" or only willingly strange? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 16:11:20 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: pete spence Subject: Re: Titles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >Yes, I have witnessed many ways to deal with this obstacle of a title. Some >poets would sooner omit a title than deal with it. One I liked was reading >the title after the poem, but not before. > >One other way to arrive at a title which I dont think you listed, is to >take the penultimate line. This is useful if you give a lot of readings, as >it signals the audience that youre about to stop. > > Then, after reading a number of these, read a long poem where the title >is >repeated at the halfway mark. > > >David or just pick out a some few words from within the poem and make that the title, not adding to or taking away from a more open reading of the work//dunno//pete ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 16:14:08 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: pete spence Subject: Re: Titles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > >Sample titles: >Dirt Bag > >Hilton Obenzinger liked the dirt bag title reminds me of the bags we have down on our surf beach for the dog walkers to scoop the poop//pete ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 16:40:42 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Nelson Subject: flash fiction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed A new flash fiction "column" of mine has surfaced at the magazine INK19's site. Any thoughts on the writing or layout would be more than appreciated. http://columns.ink19.com/flashfictions/ thanks and cheers, Jason Nelson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 14:50:07 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Ellis Subject: Re: Up front and out of place Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Jacques, Of course the "context" and thus the "meaning" of whatever - letters, notes, poems, and everything else that isn't "writing" - changes. If it didn't, everything wld be frozen in place. My responsibility for "what ha(d) been said" in fact WAS to present a version I knew to be changed, and that I hoped wld continue to change, tho I know "the ripple effect" never works - the waters are always "calmed" by someone with an antithetical intent and maybe ulterior motive. Okay, so the context changed the meaning - what are you meaning to suggest? That that's "unethical"? For God's sake, Jacques! What do you want -the world to stay the way you propose it? I've always thought one purpose of writing was to completely disturb that sense of "tradition" we might call The Archival. Like, what's it FOR? To dream ahead by looking always back - or to "ground" the goof of the present moment? I mean, I like the way you continually propose the "difficulty" in the act of writing, but I can't help thinking you'd like to keep it, by just those means, the "difficulty", you know, like that old comedy routine - "one for me and one for you, three for me and two for you, eleven for me and four for you, etc." I don't mind being trumped, but I can't help feeling behind some of your recent theoretical posts a nagging yet unadmitted clawing after what in the past you've called "cultural capital." It's as if you argue such issues abstractly because you feel you aren't getting enough of it, and it shows. In the end, viz my recirculating your withdrawn post and your suggestion here that I had or have some ulterior motive, I say I probably do (or did), and it's that I don't feel any particular "responsibility" to "history" in the "archival" sense - or any loyalty toward the privacy of those who do. Break down and open up! S E ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 00:26:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard Dillon Subject: Re: exemplary success (Jackson MacLow) Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Terrific post. As the publisher/conceiver of LIVE AT THE EAR (Elemenope Productions, 1994, edited by Charles Bernstein), it isn't quite fair to say that simple access to funding confers a right to publish anything successfully. Distinguished largely by my access to INTELLECTUAL capital and FRIENDSHIP capital, a product in Capitalism came to life to stand on its own. It (The immortal CD) was something that sprang to life by itself in my imagination and in a very bizarre fashion the money, as they say, happened. So we (Charles, the poets, the factories and technicians) did it. ---------- >From: Jacques Debrot >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: exemplary success (Jackson MacLow) >Date: Mon, Feb 7, 2000, 12:15 PM > >Just quickly, to bring various of my points home, let me bring up the example >of Jackson Maclow's _42 Merzgedichte in Memoriam Kurt Schwitters. This book, >largely composed through chance operations, is a work that in a real sense >*anyone* could write running Scwitter's writing through the TRAVESTY or >DIASTEXT programs. A passage, quoted entirely at random, forcibly shows this: > >nd was more successful wit >h found than with fabricate >d el >ements. >man-made hil > >I >"Schacko" >Hulsendadai > >smus = Husk Dadaism advert >ising de >s > >. . . and so on. My purpose is *not* that MacLow's book, or similar >experiments cannot be extremely interesting, but rather to think for a moment >about the work's reception. It almost goes without saying that had Jacques >Debrot-- or any of thousands of other poets--written _In Memorium_ (& in fact >many have--texts written w/ TRAVESTY proliferate everywhere) the book would >certainly *not* have been published by Station Hill Press (or likely >anywhere). But in fact, not only was _In Memorium_ published, it won Sun & >Moon's America Award for best small press book of 1995. *Ironic that work >which attempts to de-authorize the author's authority, depends for its very >existence on that authority.* > >But this is to stop too soon. For what ultimately authorizes a book is the >cultural bussinessman/woman--or publisher. It is he/she who creates the >creator. Indeed, a relatively small number of publishers (those associated >w/ the most prestigious presses) have a kind of unchecked power to determine >& shape the field of alternative poetry--unchecked in the sense that there is >an alternative press scene that churns out positive reviews enthusiastically >ratifying any editorial decision these people make. But, it's funny, even >though these arbiters are largely *self-appointed* (distinguished largely by >their access to economic capital), the audience for experimental poetry never >questions *how* or *why* the determination is made that X's or Y's judgement >of aesthetic value will be/or should be a decisive one. > >--jacques > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 21:17:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Cunningham Subject: Re: poetry syllabus In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20000206012205.006db9d0@uclink4.berkeley.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Came in Monday morning to find 500 copies of the Dictee reprint in the SPD warehouse, having secretely arrived on Friday. Back in print. Brent Cunningham At 01:22 AM 2/6/00 -0500, I wrote: >Sadly _Dictee_ appears to be completely out of print, thus unavailable to >the professors and civilians who (fairly frequently) contact SPD looking >for it. Third Woman Press, its original publisher, has had plans to >reprint it for some time, but it continues not to arrive at our doorstep. >Hopefully the reprint is still in the works, as it's an excellent and >suggestive work. > > >Brent Cunningham > >As always, do check out SPD's ever-revolving selection of new titles, going >up on the Web once a month at www.spdbooks.org > > > > >At 07:34 PM 2/3/00 -0800, you wrote: >>Ah, this is a can of worms to be sure, but I have to publicly make a pitch >>for including Teresa Hak Kyung Cha's _Dictee_. I've taught this text to >>"beginning" and "intermediate/advanced" students at San Francisco State with >>excellent results. Will help to further discussions about definitions of >>"poetry," the "visual arts," "identity," "race," "Nationhood." Can be used >>to many useful pedagogical ends -- plus it's just a fascinating text. >>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>Kathy Lou Schultz >>Editor & Publisher >>Lipstick Eleven/Duck Press >>http://www.duckpress.org >> >>42 Clayton Street San Francisco, CA 94117-1110 >> >>---------- >>>From: "K.Silem Mohammad" >>>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >>>Subject: poetry syllabus >>>Date: Thu, Feb 3, 2000, 10:02 AM >>> >> >>>Hi List, >>> >>>I'm going to be teaching a course at UC Santa Cruz >>>this summer on Contemporary American Poetry, >>>and I thought it might be useful/ interesting/ >>>inflammatory/etc. to run a draft of my syllabus >>>past anyone out there who has nothing better to do >>>than my work for me. (BTW, I'm cross-posting >>>this to both the subsub and Beefalo lists.) >>> >>>It's a five-week intensive course that meets >>>three times a week for two and a half hours a day, >>>and an obvious problem is fitting as much in >>>as possible without overloading the students >>>(most of whom will probably be pretty new >>>to [insert your favorite adjective here] poetry). >>>That goal may ultimately be impossible, but >>>I'd love to get feedback on this. >>> >>>The selections here are largely but not exclusively >>>from Paul Hoover's Norton anthology, >>>_Postmodern American Poetry_. Since I want to keep >>>the required texts affordable, I'm trying to limit >>>them to Hoover and a photocopied course reader >>>(although I'm tempted to require Ashbery's >>>_Tennis Court Oath_, Hejinian's _My Life_, >>>and Will Alexander's _Towards the Primeval >>>Lightning Field_, among others, in their entirety). >>>I'm trying also to limit the content of the reader >>>to critical texts as much as possible (e.g. excerpts >>>from Spicer's dictation lecture, Silliman's >>>_New Sentence_, the passage from Jameson's >>>_Postmodernism_ on Perelman's "China, " >>>Bernadette Mayers' writing experiments, etc.), >>>but there are some poems Hoover doesn't include >>>that I just have to put in--Ashbery's "Daffy Duck >>>in Hollywood," Coolidge's "Bee Elk," and so on. >>> >>>That much being said, I'd like especially to hear >>>from people about what kinds of things they >>>think should be taught about the poets I've listed, >>>and even about what poets I should be whipped >>>for omitting (or, I guess, for _not_ omitting) >>>Of course, it's simply not possible to fit everyone in >>>that I'd like to. I've reluctantly disincluded biggies like >>>Robert Duncan, Denise Levertov, Ed Dorn, >>>James Schuyler, Rosmarie Waldrop, Steve McCaffery, >>>Johanna Drucker, David Bromige, David Antin-- >>>you get the idea. Some of these are favorites >>>of mine, and there might be persuasive >>>arguments for putting some of them back; >>>but then who gets the axe? Such power! >>> >>>Keep in mind that I've subtitled the course "from Beat >>>to Postlanguage" (note: I definitely _will_ acknowledge >>>the contested status of that second label), and >>>that my more or less arbitrary starting point is poets >>>who were fairly new in the '50s. Hence no readings >>>from Stein, Zukofsky, etc.; though maybe I'll print >>>up some handouts for the first day. >>> >>>I must admit to feeling a little guilty that >>>the reading list seems kind of doctrinaire--like >>>a kind of official unofficial verse culture primer. >>>I've left out poets I'm crazy about, to be honest, >>>simply because I don't know quite what to do >>>with them (e.g., Diane Wakoski, James Tate, >>>Russell Edson). Still, I feel pretty settled on >>>the basic selection rationale, which largely >>>consists of sampling the Don Allen _New American >>>Poetry_ categories plus Second Gen New York School, >>>Language, and whatever it is that has grown out of / >>>around / on top of that. >>> >>>Another thing: you'll surely notice that >>>with one or two exceptions, the poets on this >>>syllabus are all grown up and already canonized at some level, >>>either to the point of godhood (Ginsberg, Ashbery) >>>or a slightly less Olympian but still "recognized" >>>cult status (DiPalma, Elmslie). I've reserved a day-- >>>yes, one measly day--at the end of the five weeks >>>to look at some more recent and less known writers: >>>that is, many of the persons who subscribe to this list. >>>Rather than face the hideous prospect of singling >>>out individual authors from among the vast foamy >>>sea of talent out there, I thought I'd try something >>>a little different: spend a whole session passing >>>around little magazines and chapbooks that feature >>>the turkiest of the young turks who are just >>>dying to be converted into academic fossils >>>before their time. Now this might seem like >>>a cheap ploy to get free goodies (maybe on some >>>dark, loathsome level of my unscrupulous psyche, >>>it is--gasp), but anyone out there who would like >>>to be a part of this great experiment might >>>consider sending chapbooks of their work, or if >>>they're editors, their magazines, etc. Consider >>>it publicity. One editor has already expressed interest >>>in possibly supplying several copies of a certain journal >>>for the class, which is actually where I got the idea >>>for this. I want to expose students not just to individual >>>writers, but to a whole spectrum of material poetic production >>>out there: self-publishing, small presses, broadsides, >>>electronic formats (though I don't know if I'm going >>>to be technologically capable of bringing web stuff >>>to the classroom on a mass level), lo-fi and hi-res >>>bookmaking, and so on. >>> >>>If anyone is interested in this hare-brained scheme, >>>please b/c me for my address or further info or just >>>to tell me what you think. >>> >>>Here's the syllabus: >>> >>>WEEK I >>> >>>Monday, June 19 >>>Introduction (Lecture on Pound, Stein, Williams, Zukofsky, Oppen, Cage, >>>etc.) >>> >>>Wednesday, June 21 >>>Charles Olson >>>Robert Creeley >>>Jack Spicer >>>Larry Eigner >>> >>>Friday, June 23 >>>Allen Ginsberg >>>Jack Kerouac >>>Amiri Baraka >>> >>>WEEK II >>> >>>Monday, June 26 >>>Frank O'Hara >>>Barbara Guest >>> >>>Wednesday, June 28 >>>John Ashbery >>>Kenneth Koch >>> >>>Friday, June 30 >>>Ron Padgett >>>Kenward Elmslie >>>Ted Berrigan >>>Bernadette Mayer >>> >>>WEEK III >>> >>>Monday, July 3 >>>Jackson MacLow >>>Clark Coolidge >>>Michael Palmer >>> >>>Wednesday, July 5 >>>Ron Silliman >>>Barrett Watten >>>Robert Grenier >>> >>>Friday, July 7 >>>Lyn Hejinian >>>Leslie Scalapino >>>Kathleen Fraser >>> >>>WEEK IV >>> >>>Monday, July 10 >>>Susan Howe >>>Hannah Weiner >>>Joan Retallack >>> >>>Wednesday, July 12 >>>Charles Bernstein >>>Bob Perelman >>>Bruce Andrews >>> >>>Friday, July 14 >>>Nathaniel Mackey >>>Rachel Blau DuPlessis >>>Ray DiPalma >>> >>>WEEK V >>> >>>Monday, July 17 >>>Will Alexander >>>Myung Mi Kim >>>Harryette Mullen >>> >>>Wednesday, July 19 >>>Assorted poets: little magazines, small presses, chapbooks, web journals >>> >>>Friday, July 21 >>>Poetry reading and cookies >>> >>> >>>There ye have it. >>> >>>Cheers, >>> >>>K. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>--------------------------------- >>>K. Silem Mohammad >>>Santa Cruz, California >>>(831) 429-4068 >>> gaufred@leland.stanford.edu >>>OR immerito@hotmail.com >>>______________________________________________________ >>>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 04:27:31 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Ellis Subject: to Maria Damon re: Bob Kaufman Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Maria, don't know whether you're aware of it or not, but there's an intelligent essay on Kaufman's "Cranial Guitar" written by Kenneth Warren, published in House Organ 16 - are you familiar with this several paged, xeroxed folder? Write Kennth at 1250 Belle Avenue / Lakewood, OH 44107 for back issue information. And if #16's no longer available, backchannel your postal address to me, and I'll gladly xerox and forward the piece to you. S E ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 20:49:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: poetry v prose v yomama / Kraus / Stein / has anyone noticed? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear John Lowther, Karen Kelley, Randy Prunty, et, yall, tired from my day, have been away, yet If you are thinking of these things and suchknot, will you please consider joining onto The Stein List, via tenderbuttons.com I believe I recall; It is hard to be there, there, there, little lady don't you peep on or poop on my enjoyment only of literature, to see what I mean see Stein archive, only wanting to talk about Stein and poetry and prose, WARNING THIS POST MAY BE SELF-INDULGENT, oh i never, and Outlet (6) Stars is still acceptin' submissions, till Feb. 15, at Double Lucy, POBox 9013, Berkeley, CA, 94709 USA, rather than via email if you please; and am interested in reviews of new and old or old and new movies, or director appreciations. (& what's up with MAGNOLIA & is BOYS DONT CRY important or just another uneven Hollywood prediliction, like was Brandon Teena really a supermodel or what goes on). If you want to write one of these please b/c with a proposal, tho I am already engaged, will listen. with love to poetix land, thankyou Elizabeth ___________________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell Double Lucy Books & Outlet Magazine http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 16:40:28 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Nielsen, Aldon" Subject: Fwd: INFO: state of black arts conference at howard (d.c.) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >From: KALAMU@aol.com >Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 17:31:41 EST >Subject: INFO: state of black arts conference at howard (d.c.) >To: KALAMU@aol.com >X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Mac sub 189 > >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: > > > On March 4, 2000, Howard University will be the site for "The Ground >Together II--Assessing the State of Black Arts for 2000 and Beyond: An >Interdisciplinary Conference." As the sequel to the October 1998 Ground >Together I event, this conference, like its predecessor, is inspired by >appeals made by acclaimed playwright August Wilson to the black community to >"develop guidelines for the protection of our cultural property, our >contributions, and the influence they accrue." This year's conference will >convene a veritable rainbow of performance and visual artists, scholars, arts >administrators, and educators to grapple with issues such as the economics of >black arts, strategies for teaching black arts, and the black artist in a >global society. Presented by Wilson scholar and Howard University professor >of African American Literature and Drama, Dr. Sandra G. Shannon, the >conference is scheduled for Saturday, March 4, 2000 and will be held on the >campus of Howard University at both Armour J. Blackburn University Center and >the Howard University Bookstore. The entire event is free and open to the >public. > > > In follow up to last year's discussions and debates, this year's >conference offers increased focus on the creative process and the Back press, >while continuing the general focus upon an interdisciplinary approach to the >analysis of Black art and its manifestations in arts institutions, academic >institutions, economic systems, etc. Featured speakers will include Jabari >Asim, Senior Editor for Washington Post Book World; Dorothy Pierce McSweeny, >Chair of the DC Commission on Arts & Humanities; Dr. Thomas Battle, Director >of Howard University's Moorland Spingarn Research Center; Kalamu ya Salaam, >New Orleans-based writer and Founder of Nommo Literary Society; Prester >Pickett, Founder/Director of the Cleveland African Grove Ensemble and >Coordinator of the African American Cultural Center at Cleveland State >University; C. Brian Williams, Co-founder of Step Afrika!; Alfonso Pollard, >National Legislative Director of th American Federation of Musicians; >Dorothea Fischer-Hornung,Senior Lecturer in the Department of English at the >University of Heidelberg, Germany, and Dr. Ajuan Mance, freelance illustrator >and visual artist and Assistant Professor of English at Mills College in >Oakland, CA. > > >Thank you, > >Sandra G. Shannon > >Conference Coordinator >sshannon@fac.howard.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1990 00:41:49 -0500 Reply-To: Brian Stefans Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Stefans Subject: exemplary success MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a postscript to my ramble: Jacques writes: > Just quickly, to bring various of my points home, let me bring up the example of Jackson Maclow's _42 Merzgedichte in Memoriam Kurt Schwitters. This book, largely composed through chance operations, is a work that in a real sense *anyone* could write running Scwitter's writing through the TRAVESTY or DIASTEXT programs. [...] My purpose is *not* that MacLow's book, or similar experiments cannot be extremely interesting, but rather to think for a moment about the work's reception. It almost goes without saying that had Jacques Debrot-- or any of thousands of other poets--written _In Memorium_ (& in fact many have--texts written w/ TRAVESTY proliferate everywhere) the book would certainly *not* have been published by Station Hill Press (or likely anywhere). But in fact, not only was _In Memorium_ published, it won Sun & Moon's America Award for best small press book of 1995. *Ironic that work which attempts to de-authorize the author's authority, depends for its very existence on that authority.* I think a key to my problem with you ideas is here, which is that you feel this work doesn't exist until it is published, and that your point hinges on the idea of its being published immediately. If Jacques Debrot had created that work, however, say in high school, being the only kid in his high school who knew about DIASTEXT, and who had never heard of Jackson Mac Low before but had an interest in say Cage and industrial music, who's to say that, after meeting up with a friend who had an interest in "poetry" who recognized the "literary" value of this work, it would not have been published? And is a work more a work because it has won an award (you've never met anyone that thought a different work should win a particular award, or does everyone buy into the prestige?) Also, where do you come to this understanding that Mac Low's work "attempts to de-authorize the author's authority"? It's not that easy. Obviously, if Mac Low is placing Schwitter's name in the title, he must have fairly "traditional" ideas of the ownership of works and of the meaning of lives ("In Memorium" not being entirely ironic), and in fact in the idea of tradition at all. It's works like this that point to a different sort of irony, which is that of the "modernist tradition," one which we are a "part of", in that we have adopted various forms of form-breaking that have become this "tradition," though as you would agree this irony, complexity, the social institutions associated with it, etc., is at the core of many of these issues we are discussing. What you also fail to note, in this case, are parrallel examples, such as: Hugh Kenner, not a poet, had a book published using this program (hence, the frame extends to the literary critic, not just to the operations of poets, so where does this frame stop?), and that Charles O. Hartmann's name will be attached to all of these works as a collaborator of sorts since he in fact wrote the program (programs, as a programmer will tell you, are often "beautiful solutions", never quite "beautiful" but can have an elegance which, when placed with the data, contribute much to the nature of the satisfaction). I don't feel there is anything about the Merzgedichte that suggests that Mac Low believed that "anyone" could have written them, or that he wanted anyone to believe this, actually, just as I don't feel anyone could have written my computer poems, even with the program. If you want to fault the reception of this work, that is fair game, but (not to open the bogeyman of "intention" here) I don't think that, in going through these processes (and in revising the text, which I don't doubt he did, though I could be wrong -- Cage revised his) that he felt that he was merely following through on basic implications present in the literary and/or scientific universe, that anyone could have done them, and that he would not, someday, translate this work into spoken speech, using his particular skills of performance at a later time (where intentionality and "authority", like in much music performance, is played out in the between spaces, the slurs and flourishes, between moments dictated by textual form). Our young high school poet (or for the sake of argument, very old gardener who had an interest in linguistics, or maybe ex-Republican speech writer who wanted to make a change in her life) could, perhaps, have written this work, but it would have been with a different series of contingencies, one of which may have been publishing opportunities but others of which exist, and require attention (maybe his great grandmother was an ex-schoolchum of Schwitters, who knows?). How would you explain what happens in McCaffery/Rasula's Imagining Language -- did those people operate along the lines you mention? And what if Bodenheim's poems printed in Revolution of the Word had taken the world by storm, and today we thought him the master and Williams the fool -- then what? > For what ultimately authorizes a book is the cultural bussinessman/woman--or publisher. It is he/she who creates the creator. Indeed, a relatively small number of publishers (those associated w/ the most prestigious presses) have a kind of unchecked power to determine & shape the field of alternative poetry--unchecked in the sense that there is an alternative press scene that churns out positive reviews enthusiastically ratifying any editorial decision these people make. But, it's funny, even though these arbiters are largely *self-appointed* (distinguished largely by their access to economic capital), the audience for experimental poetry never questions *how* or *why* the determination is made that X's or Y's judgement of aesthetic value will be/or should be a decisive one. I don't see where you come up with this -- unchecked power? Sure, a lot of this contains truth, but who is this "audience" and how can you say they "never question" these hows and whys? Who are you talking to? What about the power of the larger publishing scene and the way it plays on "ours" -- i.e. isn't the context of these flattering reviews (and I agree with you some of this) really the still continuing battle between what the true moneyed press sees as worthwhile -- the Knopfs and the Vintages -- and "our" presses? (It would be a more interesting place if anyone believed this war going on -- it probably isn't, but I still think it's a component of this cycle of reviews.) Consequently, in general I think you snap back and forth between basing your theory on things you think about writing _today_ and what happened in the past (when, for example, a poem like Kora in Hell would have had to have been published in France, or when Mac Low's early works didn't appear in book form but were, rather, performed at the New School, or were the backdrops to dances or other cultural events, or even shouted on stree corners). What is your intention -- to discover an all-time, or at least widely applicable, truth about cultural production and meaning, or to find a platform from which to lambhast the present time, and our present community? Lastly (sorry about this length, again!) I also don't undestand your point on Williams and OTHERS -- it seemed that, with the writing he wanted to do, he would have distanced himself from them, but you seem to suggest that he promoted or supported their work because it took him along with them? Why wouldn't he develop his work from their methods, seeing as they composed the "habitus" in which he was playing out his game? Maybe I'm missing something. Did he expect Duchamp to take him up, and push him into the French avant-garde? Also, why read my little deathbed thing -- which is probably baloney anyway, I admit -- in the context of a VICTORIAN novel, why not place it in the context of a novel by Robbe-Grillet, where such things can appear? It would be the same moment, different meaning, less determined frame. Are you trying to read literary culture in terms of the Victorian novel -- what about in terms of quantum physics? Respectfully, Brian ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:24:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: OTHERS and poetic value In-Reply-To: from "Jacques Debrot" at Feb 7, 2000 09:06:16 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I feel I should fess up that I'm the source for the info which Jacquescites on OTHERS below, particularly since it's not perfectly accurate. The basic premise is quite true: there's much work in OTHERS whose we would be hardpressed to explain in terms of literary value. Maxwell Bodenheim, who Jacques briefly quotes below, is a constant - and he's terrible! I say this with genuine consciousness of my own biases - what's interesting to me is just how terrible I think he is, and *why* he seems to me to pale in comparison to other regular contributors like Williams or Mina Loy. The fact is, Williams - who had a lot of input with OTHERS though I believe Alfred Kreyborg was officially its editor - had what we would call a pretty good eye for talent - among the regular contributors to OTHERS you'll find Loy, Moore, Pound, Stevens. But you'll also find Bodenheim, John Gould Fletcher, Walter Arensberg, Helen Hoyt ("You are more shadowy than frost flowers / Growing in your smooth atmosphere"). (Aside: I was wrong about Schofield Thayer, who published mostly in THE DIAL - though this too was a place Williams frequently published - "Portrait of a Lady" appeared in it in 1920; and Schofield Thayer sucks!) In addition, there are interesting examples of OTHERS contrubtors who have been forgotten who are actually pretty damn good -- Mina Loy would have fit this category until a few years ago, and she's actually one of my favorites as I'm sure some on this list would agree. Another, though less prolific, is Orrick Johns, who's poems are fucking hilarious! and totally forgotten. Williams mentions his "Blue Undershirts on a Line" as a big influence on the OTHERS crowd: Blue undershirts, Upon a line, It is not necessary to say to you Anything about it-- What they do, What they might do . . . blue undershirts. "Comic objectivism," I'd call it. But Johns' real gift was for finding a space for the stupid and frivolous in modernist poetry: Miggles-- That was his name, Everyone always said, "Miggles did it." Oh, Miggles, I admired you from the beginning, Miggles! (Come to think of it, this says a lot about how "admiration" gets generated "magically" as Jacques said.) Here's my particular favorite" Now I know I have been eating apple-pie for breakfast In the New England Of your sexuality. Funny! Johns has a pretty good book of this stuff called ASPHALT. He didn't sustain it, though. Is that it, longevity? One factor I suppose. But, getting back to Jacques original pts., how were decisions being made about inclusion in OTHERS and what, if anything, did they have to do with poetic/aesthetic value? It seems clear to me that it was a mish-mosh of many factors: friendship, *money*, individual perisistence, lobbying, and yes, the communities aesthetic values too -- but less than one might think. Modernism, maybe, was not as policed as we might presume (Pound's "amygism" efforts aside) - and in any event, I've never thoughts that a term which sought to umbrella the work of Stein, Eliot, WCW, Pound, Loy (to say nothing of Orrick Johns, or Maxwell Bodenheim, or, in a better vein, Kenneth Fearing) held a whole lot of water. If you're in New York in 1920, or if you're all reading John Dewey, or if 3 of you are listening to Bessie Smith, then, sure, you've got something in common -- but, MODERNISM? No. What this says about today's climate, is unclear (whoops, wasn't that the topic?). I think Jacques is probably right that, having dispensed largely with aesthetic criteria (other than some vague - very vague - requirement that one be "experimental") other criteria have filled the void -- and this is what makes Bordieu seem like the prophet of our current situation. My main concern is that in accepting Bordieu as gospel truth, we might extniguish all possibilties of ethical action (in the most secular sense). Is a writer in, say 1975 South Africa, whose work is designed - *designed* - to promote the overthrow of Apartheid, taking this symbolic action merely to create a space in which to better accrue capital for himself? Which is to say, is the writing of this hypothetical person strictly an ego-driven affair? But if the Self is a site of mediation, where does that leave a theory which, at bottom, seems to depend pretty heavily ona model of self-interest? Or even group-interest in a strict sense, since they too are mediated and permeable. -Mike. in According to Jacques Debrot: > > earlier posts, I'm not going to go there this time. Instead, inasmuch as you > can get perhaps an even better sense of how a poet plays the game through the > context in which he/she promotes the work of friends--though this is what is > *lost* over time because its seen as inconsequential--I thought it would be > interesting to paste to this post a sample of some excreably conventional > work carried in OTHERS (which a friend passed on to me) > > Maxwell Bodenheim, for example, was a constant presence in the magazine: > > I shall turn and feel upon my feet > The kisses of Death, like scented rain." > > This is an entirely typical couplet, my friend tells me. Schofield Thayer > was another completely banal & thoroughly trite writer. But, now, Wallace > Gould is in a league of his own: > > "Sing, nigger in the distance. coming up the hill. > Sing to the broom, the watermelon, the wind, the moon, the paradise of > niggers, the god of niggers..." > > Oh my God! I don't have time to make more of this, if in fact *anything* can > be made of it, except to say that it's the neglected, forgotten, trivial > aspects of a poet's career--WCW certainly knew these poems were awful--just > as much as the sublimated aspects, that constitute the habitus. > > --jacques > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 17:11:30 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dickison Subject: ** PLEASE FORWARD ** Poetry Center FEB Readings ** Comments: To: Tina Rotenberg Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Help? Can you help spread the word about these 3 upcoming readings, Feb 10th, 17th, & 24th. The people in mailing-land have bungled & our large printed poster-calendar is only now enroute to the world at large. If you'd please forward this February Poetry Center schedule to your group e-mailing lists (and otherwise spread the word) it would be greatly greatly appreciated. Thank you! regards, Steve =3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3D THE POETRY CENTER & AMERICAN POETRY ARCHIVES Presents =46eb 10 Kenneth Irby reading & in conversation with Robert Grenier =46eb 17 A Memorial Tribute to Edward Dorn =46eb 24 Anne Carson =3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3D KENNETH IRBY reading & in conversation with Robert Grenier Thursday February 10, 7:30 pm, $5 donation @ The Unitarian Center, 1187 Franklin (at Geary) San Francisco ". . . only pay attention once again" KENNETH IRBY tonight makes a rare public appearance in the Bay Area, visiting from his hometown of Lawrence, Kansas. * For our opening evening of the year, we're very happy to present one of the true inheritors of and innovators within the Black Mountain tradition of (among others) Robert Creeley, Edward Dorn, Robert Duncan & Charles Olson--and a poet whose persistent vision and practice has opened up a work unlike any of these writers. * His latest book is Ingressions & Exolutions, due from Arcturus Editions. * Following his reading, he'll be joined in conversation by his friend, poet ROBERT GRENIER, of Bolinas. * ". . . the gift of the book, to be so dedicate of inspiration as oblique of understanding as the edge of handwriting's legibility and even then not quit yielding difficulty up =2E . ." (from Ingressions & Exolutions, Arcturus Editions, 2000) =3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3D A memorial tribute to EDWARD DORN Thursday, February 17, 7:30 pm, free @ The Unitarian Center, 1187 Franklin (at Geary) San Francisco With special guests GORDON BROTHERSTON, BOB CALLAHAN, TOM CLARK, STEPHEN EMERSON, JOANNE KYGER, DUNCAN McNAUGHTON, and TOM RAWORTH. EDWARD DORN, who died on the 10th of this past December at his home in Denver, will be remembered by a gathering of friends this evening in San =46rancisco. Born in 1929 in Eastern Illinois, Mr. Dorn attended Black Mountain College during the 1950s and would come to prominence with the publication of several remarkable early poems in Donald Allen's renowned anthology The New American Poetry. His many books published over four decades in the US and the UK include The Collected Poems 1956-1974 (Four Seasons, Bolinas, 1975), the novel The Rites of Passage (Frontier Press, Buffalo, 1965), later issued as By the Sound, the long dramatic narrative poem Gunslinger, issued serially, and eventually collected in 1975 (Berkeley, Wingbow Press), Recollections of Gran Apacheria (Turtle Island, San Francisco, 1974), and several volumes of translations from Spanish, Portuguese, and Native American languages, done with Gordon Brotherston, and recently collected in the volume The Sun Unwound: Original Texts from Occupied America (North Atlantic Books, Berkeley, 1999). ". . . The mission bells are ringing in Kansas. Have you left something out. Negative, says my Gunslinger, no _thing_ is omitted." =3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3D ANNE CARSON Thursday February 24, 7:30 pm, $5 donation @ The Unitarian Center, 1187 Franklin (at Geary) San Francisco A classics scholar thoroughly in touch with the subtleties of contemporary poetry, Anne Carson several years ago appeared with a brilliant work on the intimacies of classic Greek poetry, Eros the Bittersweet. * More recently, few books of contemporary poetry have enjoyed the audience afforded her "novel in verse," Autobiography of Red. * Her other works include Glass, Irony and God, and Plainwater: Essays & Poems. * Ms. Carson is the visiting Holloway Lecturer at UC Berkeley this spring semester. * Her latest critical work, Economy of the Unlost, analyzes the poetics of Paul Celan and Simonides of Keos, and is just out from Princeton, and her opera installation--The Mirror of Simple Souls--can be viewed at www.ummu.umich.edu/projects/souls. * She lives in Montr=E9al, Qu=E9bec. * "Anne Carson is, for me, the most exciting poet writing in English today" --Michael Ondaatje =3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3D for reservations call the Poetry Center at 415-338-2227, or e-mail David Booth, daboo@sfsu.edu =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Steve Dickison, Director The Poetry Center & American Poetry Archives ~ San Francisco State Univers= ity 1600 Holloway Avenue ~ San Francisco CA 94132 ~ 415-338-3401 ~ ~ ~ L=E2 taltazim h=E2latan, wal=E2kin durn b=EE-llay=E2ly kam=E2 tad=FBwru Don't cling to one state turn with the Nights, as they turn ~Maq=E2mat al-Hamadh=E2ni (tenth century; tr Stefania Pandolfo) ~ ~ ~ Bring all the art and science of the world, and baffle and humble it with one spear of grass. ~Walt Whitman's notebook ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 10:07:57 -0500 Reply-To: joris@csc.albany.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: The postman rang 3x Comments: To: "British Poets (E-mail)" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The mailman has for once not stolen all the best books of poetry that (should) come my way! So, last week brought the excellent: _A Paradise of Poets_ by Jerome Rothenberg (New Directions $14.95, ISBN 0-8112-1427-3)consisting of new poems and translations. I am amazed how little New Directions does to move their books around -- & amazed at the fact that books like this get so little review space anywhere. Here is one of the very finest American poets writing at the top of his form & no notice is taken. An amazing week it was because another, long awaited major collection of poetry arrived a day later: _At Dusk Iridescent_ by Thomas Meyer being a substantial selection of Meyer's poems from 1972 to 1997 (The Jargon Spociety, ISBN 0912330-81-3, somewhat expensive at $40 but one of the most beautiful books I have seen in a long time, & well worth the price of admission). Meyer is one of North America's great hidden treasures: a lyric poet of amazing reach & exactness of sound, a Bunting-like terseness and yet an ability to flow and move through a wide range of cultures and languages, of lore and fact. One of the finest ears now attending to the work of poetry, and of my own generation, probably the finest. & now this week has also already brought a beaut: Allen Fisher's _The Topological Shovel_ , from Nate Dorward's Gig Editions in Canada. A much-needed gathering/reprint of 4 AF essays that shed light not only on his won work of the 80ies and 90ies (the _Gravity as a consequenc eof shape_ project) but are to my mind among the most important essays on poetics of those decades. Pierre ________________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris The speech of everything is its 6 Madison Place veil when it speaks. Albany NY 12202 Niffari Tel: (518) 426-0433 Fax: (518) 426-3722 Email: joris@csc.albany.edu Url: ____________________________________________________________________________ _ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:01:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: e-mail for Jerome Rothenberg? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Could anybody backchannel me with information about how to reach Jerome Rothenberg, on e-mail or otherwise? Thanks. Mark Wallace /----------------------------------------------------------------------------\ | | | mdw@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu | | GWU: | | http://gwis2.circ.gwu.edu/~mdw | | EPC: | | http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/wallace | |____________________________________________________________________________| ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:08:43 PST Reply-To: gaufred@leland.stanford.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Silem Mohammad" Subject: Re: poetry syllabus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Dear Wystan, Thanks for the feedback. I think you're right: I'll probably trim the list a bit, although it's tough. As for the level, it will be a mixed bag of undergrads, I think. Santa Cruz students tend to be into the adventurous stuff on average, so I think most of them will get something out of it despite the difficulty of much of the reading. Each class session is 2 and a half hours, so there's plenty of hashing-it-out time. Cheers, Kasey >From: Wystan Curnow >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: poetry syllabus >Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 15:36:40 +1200 > >Dear K. Silem Mohammad, > I use Hoover as well but supplement the selection >with my own more or less every class. You don't say what level the >course is. In general though I feel you are trying to teach too many >poets in a short time--I'd cut the list by two-thirds, one poet per >session. > Good luck, > Wystan Curnow > > Hi List, > > > > I'm going to be teaching a course at UC Santa Cruz > > this summer on Contemporary American Poetry, > > and I thought it might be useful/ interesting/ > > inflammatory/etc. to run a draft of my syllabus > > past anyone out there who has nothing better to do > > than my work for me. (BTW, I'm cross-posting > > this to both the subsub and Beefalo lists.) > > > > It's a five-week intensive course that meets > > three times a week for two and a half hours a day, > > and an obvious problem is fitting as much in > > as possible without overloading the students > > (most of whom will probably be pretty new > > to [insert your favorite adjective here] poetry). > > That goal may ultimately be impossible, but > > I'd love to get feedback on this. > > > > The selections here are largely but not exclusively > > from Paul Hoover's Norton anthology, > > _Postmodern American Poetry_. Since I want to keep > > the required texts affordable, I'm trying to limit > > them to Hoover and a photocopied course reader > > (although I'm tempted to require Ashbery's > > _Tennis Court Oath_, Hejinian's _My Life_, > > and Will Alexander's _Towards the Primeval > > Lightning Field_, among others, in their entirety). > > I'm trying also to limit the content of the reader > > to critical texts as much as possible (e.g. excerpts > > from Spicer's dictation lecture, Silliman's > > _New Sentence_, the passage from Jameson's > > _Postmodernism_ on Perelman's "China, " > > Bernadette Mayers' writing experiments, etc.), > > but there are some poems Hoover doesn't include > > that I just have to put in--Ashbery's "Daffy Duck > > in Hollywood," Coolidge's "Bee Elk," and so on. > > > > That much being said, I'd like especially to hear > > from people about what kinds of things they > > think should be taught about the poets I've listed, > > and even about what poets I should be whipped > > for omitting (or, I guess, for _not_ omitting) > > Of course, it's simply not possible to fit everyone in > > that I'd like to. I've reluctantly disincluded biggies like > > Robert Duncan, Denise Levertov, Ed Dorn, > > James Schuyler, Rosmarie Waldrop, Steve McCaffery, > > Johanna Drucker, David Bromige, David Antin-- > > you get the idea. Some of these are favorites > > of mine, and there might be persuasive > > arguments for putting some of them back; > > but then who gets the axe? Such power! > > > > Keep in mind that I've subtitled the course "from Beat > > to Postlanguage" (note: I definitely _will_ acknowledge > > the contested status of that second label), and > > that my more or less arbitrary starting point is poets > > who were fairly new in the '50s. Hence no readings > > from Stein, Zukofsky, etc.; though maybe I'll print > > up some handouts for the first day. > > > > I must admit to feeling a little guilty that > > the reading list seems kind of doctrinaire--like > > a kind of official unofficial verse culture primer. > > I've left out poets I'm crazy about, to be honest, > > simply because I don't know quite what to do > > with them (e.g., Diane Wakoski, James Tate, > > Russell Edson). Still, I feel pretty settled on > > the basic selection rationale, which largely > > consists of sampling the Don Allen _New American > > Poetry_ categories plus Second Gen New York School, > > Language, and whatever it is that has grown out of / > > around / on top of that. > > > > Another thing: you'll surely notice that > > with one or two exceptions, the poets on this > > syllabus are all grown up and already canonized at some level, > > either to the point of godhood (Ginsberg, Ashbery) > > or a slightly less Olympian but still "recognized" > > cult status (DiPalma, Elmslie). I've reserved a day-- > > yes, one measly day--at the end of the five weeks > > to look at some more recent and less known writers: > > that is, many of the persons who subscribe to this list. > > Rather than face the hideous prospect of singling > > out individual authors from among the vast foamy > > sea of talent out there, I thought I'd try something > > a little different: spend a whole session passing > > around little magazines and chapbooks that feature > > the turkiest of the young turks who are just > > dying to be converted into academic fossils > > before their time. Now this might seem like > > a cheap ploy to get free goodies (maybe on some > > dark, loathsome level of my unscrupulous psyche, > > it is--gasp), but anyone out there who would like > > to be a part of this great experiment might > > consider sending chapbooks of their work, or if > > they're editors, their magazines, etc. Consider > > it publicity. One editor has already expressed interest > > in possibly supplying several copies of a certain journal > > for the class, which is actually where I got the idea > > for this. I want to expose students not just to individual > > writers, but to a whole spectrum of material poetic production > > out there: self-publishing, small presses, broadsides, > > electronic formats (though I don't know if I'm going > > to be technologically capable of bringing web stuff > > to the classroom on a mass level), lo-fi and hi-res > > bookmaking, and so on. > > > > If anyone is interested in this hare-brained scheme, > > please b/c me for my address or further info or just > > to tell me what you think. > > > > Here's the syllabus: > > > > WEEK I > > > > Monday, June 19 > > Introduction (Lecture on Pound, Stein, Williams, Zukofsky, Oppen, Cage, > > etc.) > > > > Wednesday, June 21 > > Charles Olson > > Robert Creeley > > Jack Spicer > > Larry Eigner > > > > Friday, June 23 > > Allen Ginsberg > > Jack Kerouac > > Amiri Baraka > > > > WEEK II > > > > Monday, June 26 > > Frank O'Hara > > Barbara Guest > > > > Wednesday, June 28 > > John Ashbery > > Kenneth Koch > > > > Friday, June 30 > > Ron Padgett > > Kenward Elmslie > > Ted Berrigan > > Bernadette Mayer > > > > WEEK III > > > > Monday, July 3 > > Jackson MacLow > > Clark Coolidge > > Michael Palmer > > > > Wednesday, July 5 > > Ron Silliman > > Barrett Watten > > Robert Grenier > > > > Friday, July 7 > > Lyn Hejinian > > Leslie Scalapino > > Kathleen Fraser > > > > WEEK IV > > > > Monday, July 10 > > Susan Howe > > Hannah Weiner > > Joan Retallack > > > > Wednesday, July 12 > > Charles Bernstein > > Bob Perelman > > Bruce Andrews > > > > Friday, July 14 > > Nathaniel Mackey > > Rachel Blau DuPlessis > > Ray DiPalma > > > > WEEK V > > > > Monday, July 17 > > Will Alexander > > Myung Mi Kim > > Harryette Mullen > > > > Wednesday, July 19 > > Assorted poets: little magazines, small presses, chapbooks, web journals > > > > Friday, July 21 > > Poetry reading and cookies > > > > > > There ye have it. > > > > Cheers, > > > > K. > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > K. Silem Mohammad > > Santa Cruz, California > > (831) 429-4068 > > gaufred@leland.stanford.edu > > OR immerito@hotmail.com > > ______________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------- K. Silem Mohammad Santa Cruz, California (831) 429-4068 gaufred@leland.stanford.edu OR immerito@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:20:43 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: ann carson query Comments: To: sub , pg@musica.mcgill.ca In-Reply-To: <389E7630.A315F03C@megsinet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" does anyone out there have contact info for anne or ann carson? please backchannel ASAP. thanks! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 12:41:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Kimmelman, Burt" Subject: Cyber Poetry - Stephanie Strickland MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain The Program in Professional and Technical Communication presents CYBER / SPACE / IMAGE / TEXT New Media Series STEPHANIE STRICKLAND "TRUE NORTH: POETRY, SCIENCE AND HYPERTEXT" February 23, 2000 2:30 - 4:00 Guttenberg Information Technology Center, Room 1400 New Jersey Institute of Technology Newark, NJ 07102 In Stephanie Strickland's cyberpoem "True North," embodied experience is refracted through the specialized languages of mathematics, science, myth, and history, with the figures of Emily Dickinson and Willard Gibbs, America's first mathematical physicist, at the heart of the poem's historical section. Released on disk by Eastgate Systems, "True North" subsequently won a 1998 Salt Hill Hypertext Prize, and has been presented at the 1999 Technology Platforms for 21st Century Literature conference at Brown University hosted by Robert Coover, at the AM98 Art and Mathematics Conference hosted by UC Berkeley, and at the 1998 MLA conference in San Francisco. Strickland will present portions of True North as well as two multimedia Web poems, one of which, "The Ballad of Sand and Harry Soot," won About.com's Best of the Net Poetry award. About Stephanie Strickland: Stephanie Strickland is widely hailed as one of our most brilliant practitioners of and thinkers about cyberspace, and as one of our finest poets. She has been the recipient of a great many honors and awards for her work. True North has won three national prizes, two as a print book version and another as a hypertext. Booklist noted that particularly the poem's title sequence, "beginning with the difference between magnetic and true north, . . . launches into an exploration of the forces of love, until the metaphor links science and the heart so tightly that they are inseparable. . . . The force of [Strickland's] passion for ideas and for human connection sustains" the entirety of the poem. True North is especially rooted in women's experience. Strickland has authored many other acclaimed works including her essays on digital text, one itself a hypertext, which have appeared in the Electronic Book Review. She has been the recipient of the Ernest Sandeen Poetry Prize and was chosen by Barbara Guest for the Alice Fay di Castagnola Award from the Poetry Society of America, and, for The Red Virgin: A Poem of Simone Weil, was awarded the Brittingham Prize by the University of Wisconsin Press. A print version of the "Ballad of Sand and Harry Soot" was selected for the 1999 Boston Review Prize by Heather McHugh. Her other awards include a New York Foundation for the Arts Poetry Fellowship, a National Endowment for the Arts Poetry Fellowship, a National Endowment for the Humanities fellowship in hypertext poetry, and the Open Voice Award of the West Side YMCA. She is also the author of the highly praised book of poems, Give the Body Back. Refreshments will be served. Further Information: Burt Kimmelman kimmelman@njit.edu http://eies.njit.edu/~kimmelma/newmedia.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 14:38:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Links MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everyone, IThere's now somewhere between 600-700 20th century author links at Readme. http://www.jps.net/nada Please stop by, & let me know of (a) better links for authors already there (b) any problems with the current links and/or (c) links to authors I don't yet have links for. Here's some of the new (since Feb 1st) additions: Etel Adnan Rosa Alcala Jimmy Santiago Baca Peter Balestrieri Lynn Behrendt Bei Dao Bruce Benderson ("Cartre du Tendre") Maurice Blanchot (by Kevin Fitzgerald) David Buuck David Buuck (prose) Neal Cassady Neal Cassady ("The Neal Cassady Experience") Miles Champion Miles Champion (Interview) G.K. Chesterton Danielle Collobert Sarah Anne Cox Hart Crane e.e. cummings Beverly Dahlen Tom Devaney David Dowker Patrick F. Durgin Ulla Dydo (on Gertrude Stein) T.S. Eliot Faiz Ahmed Faiz Vincent Ferrini Annie Finch Liz Fodaski Richard Foreman David Fox Heather Fuller ("You Follow") Susan Gevirtz Abraham Lincoln Gillespi Renee Gladman ("First Sleep") Nada Gordon ("Anime") Richard Grossman Jessica Hagedorn (Interview - print) Jessica Hagedorn (Interview - sound) Barbara Henning David Hess Bob Holman Laird Hunt Jeffrey Jullich Marie Kazalia Karen Kelley Martha King Ron Kolm ("Hook") Chris Kraus Bill Kushner (Poems) The Last Poets David Lehman Walter K. Lew Pamela Lu Gena Mason Heather McHugh Edna St. Vincent Millay (Poems) Carol Mirakove Yedda Morrison Laura Mullen Gale Nelson Sianne Ngai ("TelepromptER") Dorothy Parker Fernando Pessoa (I) Fernando Pessoa (2) Fernando Pesso (3) Meredith Quartermain George Quasha Pam Rehm Peter Riley (Interview) Rainer Maria Rilke Henry Rollins Ann Rower Camille Roy Eric Selland Anne Sexton Gail Sher Jerrold Shiroma Miriam Solan Brian Kim Stefans ("Stops and Rebels") Brian Kim Stefans (at UBU Web) Gertrude Stein (at tenderbuttons.com) Gertrude Stein (Ulla Dydo on) Nathaniel Tarn Carl Thayler Dylan Thomas Rodrigo Toscano Diane Ward Jo Ann Wasserman William Butler Yeats Thanks, Gary Sullivan http://www.jps.net/nada/gsull.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 23:36:31 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fredrik Hertzberg LIT Subject: Mayer's Formal Field of Kissing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Could someone who has a copy of Bernadette Mayer's The Formal Field of Kissing please check if there is a translation of Catullus #27, and if so, please type it down & backchannel? (it's only seven lines long) Thanks, Fred Hertzberg ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:40:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: derek beaulieu Subject: also - contact names cont. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit also - does anyone out there have contact snail mail addresses for either nancy kang (last seen at the UofCalgary) or tony snow (aka tjsnow) (also last seen at the UofCalgary) that they could backchannel me? thanks derek beaulieu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:54:21 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Juliana Spahr Subject: free books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've got some stock on some good books. Odds and ends of the Leave Books project. If you want one or more, let me know. They are for free and no postage is necessary, but any money you might care to send will be put towards production costs of Chain. But if you are broke, don't feel like you need to send any. I would just rather have the books out in the world than in my office. First come, first served. Here is the list: Julia Blumenreich, Artificial Memory Guy Beining, Too Far to Hear Cole Swensen, Walk Tom Beckett, Economies of Pure Expenditure Peter Ganick, As Convenience C. S. Giscombe, Two Sections of Giscome Road Kim Rosenfield, Two Poems Ira Lightman, Psychoanalysis of Oedipus Kevin Killian, Santa Elena Rivera, Wale; or, the Corse Mark McMorris, Figures for a Hypothesis (Suite) Sianne Ngai, My Novel Lori Lubeski, Stamina Please reply to me and not to the list. js@lava.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 23:48:55 -0500 Reply-To: mjk@acsu.buffalo.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mike Kelleher Subject: Fwd: Manhattan Sublet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Manhattan Apartment for April Sublet Laird Hunt and Eleni Sikelianos are looking for one or two cat-friendly individual(s) to sublet a large, bright, two-bedroom Lower East Side Apartment for the month of April. Cost (which includes a reduction for taking care of two very sweet cats) is $1400 and must be paid ahead of time. Phone and utilities will also be subletter?s responsibility. Very well located ? 15 minute walk to Soho, St. Mark?s Church, etc. Near subway. Call 212-614-9546 Or email Lairdhunt@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 23:54:43 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: HAC MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Forwarded from Dan Wilcox once a year the Homeless Action Committee of Albany holds its big fund raiser sleep-a-thon. This year it will be: Friday, Feb. 15th, 7PM to Sunrise, Townsend Park (Corner of Henry Johnson Blvd. & Central Ave.), Albany, NY Funds raised will benefit the Homeless Action Committee's Single Room Occupancy Residence ("Our House") and the Outreach Van. "Our House" is a home for chronic alcoholics who would otherwise be living on the streets of Albany. HAC's van makes rounds on the streets, providing a listening ear, food, clothing, blankets and transportation to homeless people. In 1999, HAC raised $10,000 from this event, which was attended by over 100 people. Students, elected officials (Congressman McNulty slept out all night for the 4th consecutive year!), church groups, and supporters all participated. Through the generosity of my family, friends & fellow poets, I raised over $300 last year. Please join us on Feb. 25 & make a contribution. If you can't join us, but would like to help, I plan on staying until at least Midnight. If you would like to make a pledge to sponsor my cold night in the park, please email me with the amount of your contribution. Then send a check payable to The Homeless Action Committee to me, Dan Wilcox, 280 South Main Ave., Albany, NY 12208. Thank you very much & I hope you can help. Dan Wilcox ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 22:18:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: derek beaulieu Subject: contact information for 4 folks? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit any suggestions? > does anyone out there have contact email and snail mail addresses for the > following folks that they could please back-channel me? > > carlyle baker > steven morton (PhD english student, university of leeds) > brian panhuyzen > blair seagram > > thanks > derek > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 00:49:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Bowering's reading habits//my reading list In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This an item of Bromige's bedside reading: >THE GLORIOUS POOL,by Thorne Smith. A glad addition to my collection by this >author, whose risqu=E9 novels entertained my father (& thus my subteen self= , >surreptitiously) & continue to divert me, tjhough as much today for the >elegant sentences & unremitting word-play, as for the erotic charge, which, >after all that's interposed itself, seems mild indeed. However, the >fantasy, a pool to restore youth to any still headstrong enough to dive in, >may tickle a reader's fancy even today : We must be of a similart aGE ALL right. Well, I am only 5 years younger than Bromige. My father, too, really liked Thorne Smith. Thorne Smith was supposed to be racy back in the 40s. The only one I ever read was _Did She =46all?_ but I certainly remember _The Glorious Pool_ being in the house. Theycame in those early Pocket Books with the glassine wrapt covers. And as a matter of fact I recently purchased a copy of _The Passionate Witch_, Pocket Book 401, second printing, July 1946. George Bowering. fax: 1-604-266-9000 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 23:51:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerrold Shiroma Subject: small press announcements MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I figure it's about time to start the bi-weekly small press announcements page again. Given that the last announcement was sometime in December, any publisher who wishes to have their recent publications listed, should send all information to jerrold@durationpress.com (please include titles, authors, prices, ordering information, & any **short** blurbs). The deadline for this list will be Friday, Feb 18 for a 19th posting. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 13:19:05 -0700 Reply-To: Laura.Wright@Colorado.EDU Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wright Laura E Subject: Left Hand Reading 2/17 (Boulder, CO) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The LEFT HAND READING SERIES presents Avant-Pop novelist MARK AMERIKA and local writer LISA TRANK. Thursday, Febuary 17th at 8:30 pm at the LEFT HAND BOOKSTORE. The Left Hand Bookstore is located at 1825 PEARL STREET above the old Crystal Market (between 18th and 19th Streets) in Boulder. The event is open to the public. Donations are requested. For information about the Left Hand Reading Series, contact Mark DuCharme at (303) 938-9346 or Laura Wright at (303) 544-5854. Mark Amerika's first novel _The Kafka Chronicles_ is now in its third printing, and his second novel, _Sexual Blood_, has been translated into Italian. His multimedia narrative work for the Internet, GRAMMATRON, has been praised by The New York Times, MSNBC's The Site, Wired, The Village Voice and Time Warner's Pathfinder, and has just been selected as one of the first works of Internet art to be exhibited in the prestigious Whitney Biennial of American Art. A frequent lecturer on the international circuit, Amerika has co-edited two anthologies, and his own work has appeared in the Penguin USA Avant-Pop anthology _After Yesterday's Crash_. Lisa Trank is a writer of fiction and poetry. She was a 1998/99 recipient of a Rocky Mountain Women's Institute award, and is currently working on _Fabric and Light_, a ficitonalized family narrative exploring gender and the Holocaust. Her work has appeared in _The Paterson Review_, _Bombay Gin_, _Persephonic_ and other magazines. There will be a short OPEN READING immediatedly before the featured readings. Sign up for the Open Reading will take place promptly at 8:30 p.m. The Left Hand Reading Series is sponsored by the Left Hand Book Collective and funded in part by grants from the Boulder Arts Commission and the Arts and Humanities Assembly of Boulder County (AHAB). Readings in the series are presented monthly. The series provides a showcase for emerging and established writers. Upcoming events in the series are: March 16: poets Merrill Gilfillan, Lisa Jarnot & Michael Friedman The Left Hand Book Collective manages an all volunteer-run bookstore selling multicultural literature, political texts and alternative media. For information about the Left Hand Book Collective, other events they sponsor or the books they sell, call the store at (303) 443-8252. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 13:23:13 -0700 Reply-To: Laura.Wright@Colorado.EDU Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wright Laura E Subject: Reading 2/18 in Boulder, CO MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Friday night, February 18 at 7:30 PM Axis Mundi Arts and Dead Metaphor Press will present a bookmark poetry reading featuring local authors Katie Ahearn, Lee Christopher, Mark DuCharme, Michael Freidman, Tom Peters, Patrick Pritchett, Laurette Reiff, Bill Scheffel, Richard Wilmarth and Laura Wright. Each poet will read for 8-10 minutes. Individual bookmarks published by Dead Metaphor will be available at the door for a suggested donation of $2. Come early and purchase the whole set as well as the commemorative broadside and see the current art show on the walls of the gallery. Axis Mundi Arts is located at 1021 Pearl Steet, Boulder, Colorado (down the hall). For more information call 303-417-9398 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 15:50:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lowther, John" Subject: Encyclopedia of American Poetry: The Twentieth Century MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain thought some might be interested in this http://www.fitzroydearborn.com/chicago > choose link to the poetry encyclopedia --- description of the project --- a complete list of entries --- a list of unassigned entries --- sample articles --- Contributor Information and Essay Request Form ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:23:15 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: why write poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Jacques, Thanks for your post. While I agree with you that the "how" is at least as important & difficult a question as the "why," in terms of writing poetry (& this in itself could be a subject for a whole new thread), I'm not sure that I agree with the dualism you seem to argue between a "romantic or essentialist" poetics, on the one hand, & "innovative" poetries on the other. In fact, I would argue that genuine innovation has occurred rarely throughout literary history, & that the claim for oppositional poetries as implicitly innovative thus is misleading. Duncan's (admittedly romantic) position to me seems more honest, & even liberating. We are all, in some sense, derivative of the poetries that precede us; why not admit it & get on with the work at hand. While I agree with your aversion to purely essentialist literary ideologies, I think that many poets work with vestiges of "romantic or essentialist" modes, torquing them in new & interesting ways without succumbing to essentialism as such. The work of Anselm's dad, talked about earlier, seems to me a case in point. Ultimately the poets who most interest me do not so much adapt their work to one or another position but (in my reading of their work) use the two positions as outer limits, or points of tension for their projects. & If writing poems ever becomes too "easy," as you claim, then surely it is when the ideological Rules of the Game have been predetermined, & one's efforts thus become a footnote to the conclusion rather than a nexus for discovery. Mark DuCharme ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 20:07:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rebecca Wolff Subject: Fence benefit reading Comments: To: ira@angel.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Friday, February 18th, 7:30pm Jorie Graham (Swarm, The Errancy, Materialism, The End of Beauty, etc.) Paul Muldoon (Hay, The Annals of Chile, Madoc: A Mystery, etc.) Colson Whitehead (The Intuitionist, just out in paperback) will read to benefit Fence at Friends Meeting House 15 Rutherford Place (between 15th and 16th streets and 2nd and 3rd avenues) New York City $15 suggested contribution or $20 includes a subscription to Fence Books for sale provided by Three Lives Bookstore Reception after the reading with wine and olives ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 20:53:13 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: Kenning Website Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello all: A word or two from Kenning HQ. First, the Kenning website has been redesigned and thus greatly simplified. You'll find a complete and up to date index of authors past and future with plenty of links to work on-line. Among these authors with on-line work are two new additions, Daniel Bouchard and Tisa Bryant respectively. Please have a look. The forthcoming issue is still, well, forthcoming. It's a special, collaboratively-edited issue, entitled "Cunning: a descriptive checklist of tentative politics," myself, Renee Gladman, Jen Hofer, and Rod Smith editors. It ought to be available and heading off in the post in two weeks or so. The spring 2000 issue, featuring new work by Ilarie Voronca (translated from the Romanian by Julian Semilian and Sanda Agalidi), Jackson Mac Low, Elizabeth Robinson, Lytle Shaw, Susan Briante, Rodrigo Toscano, and many many others, will be available without delay in high April. Since each issue of Kenning tends to sell out within a few weeks of its release, I'd recommend entering a subscription soon, if possible. Besides, subscriptions pay for the production and distribution of the newsletter. In the meantime, click on the URL below and get a taste. k e n n i n g a newsletter of contemporary poetry, poetics, and nonfiction writing http://www.avalon.net/~kenning 418 Brown St. #10, Iowa City, IA 52245, USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 01:11:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: how to map writing, and you may find yourself writing, MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - how to map writing, and you may find yourself writing, how to map writing. you may find yourself writing in unknown territory and you may find yourself showing your friends that you are very fine, that you may walk on the wild side of the law, and you may find yourself very happy and your friends will turn against you and you will use an illegal stopping date in string %d in `era' field in category `%s', implementation limit: no more than %d character classes allowed, implementation limit: no more than %d character maps allowed, incorrectly formatted file, input line of unknown type, internal error - addtype called with bad isdst, in- ternal error - addtype called with bad ttisgmt, internal error - addtype called with bad ttisstd, internal error in %s, line %u, invalid gmt off- set, invalid abbreviation format, invalid day of month, invalid ending year, invalid leaping year, invalid month name, invalid saved time, in- valid starting year, invalid time of day, invalid weekday name, line after ellipsis must contain character definition, line before ellipsis does not contain definition for character constant, line too long, locale file `%s', used in `copy' statement, not found, lstat failed, malformed line ignored, memory clobbered before allocated block, memory clobbered past end of allocated block, memory exhausted, memory exhausted, memory is consistent, library is buggy, missing era format in string %d in `era' field in category `%s', missing era name in string %d in `era' field in category `%s', nameless rule, and you will find you have nowhere to go, and you will be all alone, and you may find yourself reading a book, and you will look up from the book, and someone will look back at you, and your will not remember, and you will not recognize your friend, and you will believe that your friend is your friend, and your friend will look at you, and your friend will look at you, and your friend will look at you __________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:35:55 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Tranter Subject: Announcing Jacket # 10 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jacket is a free literary quarterly published (only on the Internet) by=20 John Tranter. If you don't wish to receive these notices of new issues of Jacket (I send= =20 out about six per year), please say so, and I'll take your name off the=20 mailing list pronto. If you know someone who'd like to receive these=20 notices, please ask them to send me an email. - J.T. ........................................................................ More stimulating than a double espresso with Strega chaser (or vice versa), more svelte than Hugh Hefner's red velvet smoking jacket - Jacket # 10 - http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/welcome.html is now ready for fitting! featuring: Barbara Guest Feature - Charles Bernstein - Introducing Barbara Guest Susan Gevirtz - on Barbara Guest Barbara Guest - five short prose pieces from =ABThe Confetti Trees=BB Sara Lundquist on Barbara Guest's =ABThe Countess From Minneapolis=BB Wendy Mulford on Barbara Guest's =ABThe Blue Stairs=BB Ramez Qureshi on Barbara Guest's =ABRocks on a Platter=BB John Tranter - poem - The Twilight Guest Geoff Ward reviews Barbara Guest's =ABIf So, Tell Me=BB Marjorie Welish: "The Lyric Lately" (a work-in-progress) Frank O'Hara Feature - Ron Koertge - prose poem - Homage John Latta - poem - "Elogio di Frank O'Hara" Russell Ferguson - Frank O'Hara and American Art Lytle Shaw - On Coterie: Frank O'Hara ". . . Perhaps, despite the=20 pejorative flavor of the word, it might be more accurate to call them a=20 'coterie' - if we define as coterie a group of writers rejected by the=20 literary establishment who found strength to continue with their work by=20 what the anarchists used to call 'mutual aid'." - John Bernard Myers Reviews, Interviews, et cetera - Richard Caddel - Introduction to Basil Bunting's =ABComplete Poems=BB - and= you=20 can listen to Basil Bunting reading "At Briggflats meetinghouse" in=20 RealAudio format and visit the Basil Bunting Poetry Centre in Durham=20 (metaphorically speaking). Thomas Bell on McCaffery and Rasula's "Imagining Language" Kent Johnson interviews Henry Gould Norman Finkelstein reviews Armand Schwerner Poems by Joe Amato =B6 Stephen Burt =B6 Denise Duhamel =B6 Chris=20 Emery =B6 Ulli Freer =B6 John Kinsella =B6 Kate Lilley =B6 Peter=20 Minter =B6 Lytle Shaw =B6 Dale Smith =B6 Pete Spence =B6 Nathaniel= =20 Tarn =B6 Tony Towle =B6 Geoff Ward =B6 Charles Harper Webb =B6 = Marjorie Welish AND Jacket's Great Moments in Literature number Ten - Belgrade researchers= =20 pinpoint location of "Poetry Gland" - amazing photos of human brains! AND - Letters to the Editor - Michael Rothenberg, Red Slider (New!) ........................................................................ Polishing the Gongs Section: In case you'd forgotten, Jacket was given a Best of the Net award from the= =20 (Poetry) Mining Company in New York in December 1997. Jacket was also Site of the Month at the Electronic Poetry Center site in=20 Buffalo, New York, in November 1997, and again in December 1999, Recommended Site on the Web Del Sol Literary Ring site for Poetry in=20 December 1997, Featured Site on the Booksmith Bookstore's "Literary Links" site in San=20 Francisco at http://www.booksmith.com/links.html in April 1998, "Page One Award" site on the Fiction Webring in 1999, and Encyclop=E6dia Britannica Internet Guide Award site in January 2000, which= =20 comes with a free search engine for the online Britannica, available to all= =20 our readers from our homepage. All past and current issues of Jacket are always available. Quick and quirky - no ad banners, no frames, no Java, no frauds, no Nobel=20 Prize-winners! If you like Jacket, please tell your friends. END from John Tranter, 39 Short Street, Balmain NSW 2041, Sydney, Australia tel (+612) 9555 8502 fax (+612) 9818 8569 Editor, Jacket magazine: http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/welcome.html Homepage: five megabytes of glittering literature, free, at http://www.alm.aust.com/~tranterj/index.html visit Australian Literary Management, at http://www.alm.aust.com/~lyntranter/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 10:16:09 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Comments: To: trace-presenters , subsubpoetics@listbot.com, writers-l@amethyst.tc.umn.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" "David Michalski" on 02/09/2000 08:36:06 AM To: "H-AMSTDY@H-NET.MSU.EDU" cc: (bcc: Mark A Nowak/St. Catherine) Subject: CFP: Streetnotes, Online Journal From: David Michalski dmichalski@adm.schoolofvisualarts.edu STREETNOTES is a biannual peer reviewed electronic journal of essays, poetry, interviews and photography dedicated to the dynamics of street observations made in the traffic of inter-human contact. We are currently accepting submissions for our Spring 2000 exhibit. Topics may include field notes, photography, interviews, voice collages, poetry and ethnographic and critical essays concerning everyday life, intercultural traffic, and the documentary experience. Guidelines: All text submissions should be sent in ascii inside the email message, or as attachments in the rich text format (*.rtf), or as html documents (*.html). All images should be sent as jpg files (*.jpg) at 72 dpi and sized no larger than 480 x 600 pxls. Please include an email address where you may be contacted. Deadlines: The deadline for the Spring 2000 exhibit of STREETNOTES is March 1st, 2000. We will accept submissions for the Fall 2000 STREETNOTES between March 15th, 2000 and August 1st, 2000. Mail To: Submissions and inquires should be sent to the editor David Michalski via email to dmichalski@adm.schoolofvisualarts.edu STREETNOTES is a project of the not-for-profit Xcp:Cross Cultural Website at http://bfn.org/~xcp It is published by Fly Into the Streets Press which is solely responsible for its content and made possible from a grant from the Buffalo Freenet. All copyrights revert to the authors upon publication unless otherwise noted. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:39:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ShaunAnne Tangney Humanities Subject: Robinson Jeffers In-Reply-To: <00c701bf71b4$0ae51320$783661cb@a> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII For those of you who might be in the area: The Annual Conference of the Robinson Jeffers Association will take place Feb. 26-27 and the Sunset Cultural Center in Carmel, CA. The conference does feature scholarly papers, but it also features open discussion of Jeffers and his work, poetry readings, and other, more atypical happenings for a "conference." I encourage anyone who is interested in Jeffers to attend. ShaunAnne Tangney Minot State University ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:25:26 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: OTHERS and poetic value MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a copy of Black Branches by Orrick Johns, 1926 Pagan Publishing Co, NY. this is from Tunings: Beautiful Mind Oh, beautiful mind, I lost it, In a lot of frying pans and calendars and carpets And beer bottles... Oh, my beautiful mind! mIEKAL (where is harry kemp in the analogues of obscurity?) Michael Magee wrote: > Another, though less prolific, is Orrick Johns, who's poems are > fucking > hilarious! and totally forgotten. Williams mentions his "Blue > Undershirts > on a Line" as a big influence on the OTHERS crowd: > > Blue undershirts, > Upon a line, > It is not necessary to say to you > Anything about it-- > What they do, > What they might do . . . blue undershirts. > > "Comic objectivism," I'd call it. But Johns' real gift was for > finding a > space for the stupid and frivolous in modernist poetry: > > Miggles-- > That was his name, > Everyone always said, > "Miggles did it." > Oh, Miggles, > I admired you from the beginning, > Miggles! > > (Come to think of it, this says a lot about how "admiration" gets > generated "magically" as Jacques said.) Here's my particular > favorite" > > Now I know > I have been eating apple-pie for breakfast > In the New England > Of your sexuality. > > Funny! Johns has a pretty good book of this stuff called ASPHALT. He > > didn't sustain it, though. Is that it, longevity? One factor I > suppose. > But, getting back to Jacques original pts., how were decisions being > made > about inclusion in OTHERS and what, if anything, did they have to do > with > poetic/aesthetic value? It seems clear to me that it was a mish-mosh > of > many factors: friendship, *money*, individual perisistence, lobbying, > and > yes, the communities aesthetic values too -- but less than one might > think. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:11:24 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: to Maria Damon re: Bob Kaufman In-Reply-To: <20000208122731.98151.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'd love it! Ken is an old grad school friend, and i had no idea he'd written on kaufman at all, though i'm assuming he knows of my work... please send to me at maria damon english dept 207 lind hall 207 church st se u of mn mpls mn 55455-0134 coffee house press dicked me over (excuse the term) with that book, in which i was supposed to have an essay (alongside, not instead of, David Henderson's, whose name i suggested for the biographical essay) that got dropped, after i named the volume, gathered previously uncollected poems for it, and supplied the back cover copy. bests, md At 4:27 AM -0800 2/8/00, Stephen Ellis wrote: >Maria, >don't know whether you're aware of it or not, but there's an intelligent >essay on Kaufman's "Cranial Guitar" written by Kenneth Warren, published in >House Organ 16 - are you familiar with this several paged, xeroxed folder? >Write Kennth at 1250 Belle Avenue / Lakewood, OH 44107 for back issue >information. And if #16's no longer available, backchannel your postal >address to me, and I'll gladly xerox and forward the piece to you. >S E > > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:13:09 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: Re: Up front and out of place MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/10/00 6:42:21 PM, stepellis@HOTMAIL.COM writes: <> Oh no, no, I do admit it, I'd like some more of that (but you/we mean *symbolic capital)--my work, like everyone's, has a social trajectory. The more general confusion on the Poetics List between symbolic/cultural capital, though, is mostly due to your forwarding my b/c where I am not sufficiently careful about the distinction--so now I'm not quite sure when someone means the one or the other. That's a little bit of a drag--but I don't have any investment in the archival or historical or whatever preservation of my remarks in this medium--they are so littered w/ typos, etc. that I would rather they all disappeared anyway. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 01:05:56 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: Titles, Dinsmore MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think the following quote adds a whole new dimension to the discussion, particularly if reference is to poetry/painting collaboration, webart, or visual poetry. It is an issue of interaction of parts, not just a linear question "Part of the fascination of renaissance emblems and of modern advertisements is the tension between the puzzling image, the laconic _inscriptio_, and the mobile and apparently dissociated _subscriptio_. That tension affects reading and looking , as the viewer is often not entirely sure where to look first or where to look for an explanation," James Elkins, _The Domain of Images_, Cornell UP, 1999 tom bell Karen Kelley wrote: > > Not reading too much "meaning" into something doesn't mean it's > meaningless. -- //\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\ OOOPSY \///\\\/\///\\\/ <><>,...,., WHOOPS J K JOVE BY HHH ZOOOOZ ZEUS'WRATHHTARW LLLL STOPG [ EMPTY ] SPACER index of online work at http://members.home.net/trbell essays: http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/criticism/gloom.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 09:14:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: sylvester pollet Subject: National Poetry Foundation Conference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Deadline Extended! The Opening of the Field: A Conference on North American Poetry in the 1960s University of Maine Orono, Maine June 28-July 2, 2000 The National Poetry Foundation invites paper and panel proposals for a conference on North American poetry of the 1960s. Proposals are welcome>on writers of previous generations whose literary careers extended into the 1960s, such as Louis Zukofsky, George Oppen, Robert Lowell, Charles Olson, Anne Sexton, Elizabeth Bishop, Lorine Niedecker, etc.; on poets or literary movements that climaxed in the 1960s, including the Beat, Black Mountain, San Francisco Renaissance, and New York schools; on women poets and poets of color, who achieved a broader visibility during this decade; and on new literary moments that began to define themselves in this period, such as the ethnopoetic movement and language-centered writing. Papers are also invited on the general cultural background of the period, including such themes as the tensions between "academic" poetry and various attempts to bring poetry into the lives of people "in the streets"; the relationship of poetry and popular culture, including rock music; and the role of poetry in the anti-war movement. As the title of the conference suggests, we invite proposals on Canadian as well as on American poetry in the 1960s. The conference will begin on Wednesday evening, June 28, and will conclude shortly after noon on Sunday, July 2. Accommodations will be available at a reasonable rate in university residence halls. Registration will be $85, with a reduced rate of $60 for graduate students. Confirmed participants as of February 1, 2000, include Marjorie Perloff, Albert Gelpi, Charles Altieri, Michael Davidson, Joan Retallack, Frank Davey, Lorenzo Thomas, Rosmarie Waldrop, Keith Waldrop, Ann Charters, Joseph Conte, Keith Tuma, Mark Scroggins, Maria Damon, Alan Golding, Barrett Watten, Lynn Keller, Peter Middleton, Ron Silliman, Kathleen Fraser, George Bowering, Aldon Nielsen, Michael Heller, Jane Augustine, Theodore Enslin, and many others.. Send one-page abstracts before March 15, 2000, to Burton Hatlen, Director, National Poetry Foundation Room 304, 5752 Neville Hall, University of Maine Orono, ME 04469-5752 Hatlen@Maine.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:01:51 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Re: small press announcements MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Spad # 4 - 36pp - Cydney Chadwick, Wayne Clements, Jeff Hilson, Jerome Rothenberg Order through Peter Riley (Books) Lawrence U. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerrold Shiroma To: Sent: 09 February 2000 07:51 Subject: small press announcements | I figure it's about time to start the bi-weekly small press | announcements page again. Given that the last announcement was | sometime in December, any publisher who wishes to have their recent | publications listed, should send all information to | jerrold@durationpress.com (please include titles, authors, prices, | ordering information, & any **short** blurbs). | | The deadline for this list will be Friday, Feb 18 for a 19th posting. | ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:19:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: judgments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Michael Magee wrote: What this says about today's climate, is unclear (whoops, wasn't that the topic?). I think Jacques is probably right that, having dispensed largely with aesthetic criteria (other than some vague - very vague - requirement that one be "experimental") other criteria have filled the void -- and this is what makes Bordieu seem like the prophet of our current situation. My main concern is that in accepting Bordieu as gospel truth, we might extniguish all possibilties of ethical action (in the most secular sense). ***** i think Mike's long post about Others, is interesting precisely because of the confidence with which he puts forth his distinctions and rankings... He is certainly right (when you compare his "old fashioned" off-hand grading, with much on the list) that one feature of this and related debates is the feeling that some people "have dispensed largely with esthetic criteria (other than....etc." Now i'm not clear that he's right that this is Jacques' point; it often sounds as tho Jacques's point is that esthetic criteria don't really *exist* objectively, at any time..and so vying for cultural capital and institutional hegemony is all poets *ever* do, as their main focus... This is quite different from the historically-specific dynamic outlined in Mike's passage i quote above... in any event, i guess my own intuitive feel, is that actual shared (or shareable, debateable) "esthetic criteria" are essentially more unstable than MM believes; but not as unstable, and subject to institutional fiat, as JD does..or actually, i think that maybe they come close to being as unstable and objectively undetermined as JD thinks..it's just that the ramifications for this, for both readers and poets, seem less dire to me than to Jacques... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:27:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Lennon Subject: NYC Reading: Harvey, Segal, Kocot @ Ear Inn 2/19 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII At the EAR INN, Saturday, February 19, 3pm: MATTHEA HARVEY, GAIL SEGAL, NOELLE KOCOT Matthea Harvey's _Pity the Bathtub Its Forced Embrace of the Human Form_ won Alice James Books' 1999 New York / New England Prize and is forthcoming in November, 2000. Gail Segal is a poet and filmmaker living in New York. Noelle Kocot's _4_ is the winner of the 1999 Four Way Books Levis Poetry Prize. The Ear Inn is located at 326 Spring Street, west of Greenwich. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:50:04 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: gender censor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The new issue of Skanky Possum contains a piece by Kent Johnson about this list, accusing Bernstein et al of censorship. Am I alone in thinking forms of censorship on this list include a breakdown whenever and wherever issues of gender have been or attempted to have been addressed. Chris, if you don't post this, I think I'll be grateful actually. Thanks, Elizabeth ___________________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell Double Lucy Books & Outlet Magazine http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:09:25 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: my censor addenda Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" More censorious questions or why I generally lurk. Why does the discourse have to be so - to put it politely - academic? Is this really the only way to be rigorous? What about the rigor of humor? David Hess posted a piece about a Gertrude Stein conference to this List some time ago in which he made his points with big tasty dollops of hilarity. Hoa Nguyen, who later printed the piece in _Skanky Possum_ (issue #2 i think) mentioned backchannel to me the profound silence with which this was met, listside. From my early days on the list, I also recall fondly Wendy Kramer's happy post on Lisa Robertson's _Debbie: An Epic_, in which she rendered both a scan of the scene at a reading Robertson gave in New York and her own reading of _Debbie_ with an enthuisasm at once intricate and flip, like a flower. Alas such pleasures are few and far between. Is it the nature of listservs to dull the senses? Are we to believe high seriousness to be the only argot that translates on email? (I work at Kmart so I don't have to talk like that. A joke.) (A joke is offensive. -- My fake Gertrude Stein quote.) sent with good wishes, Elizabeth ___________________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell Double Lucy Books & Outlet Magazine http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:50:26 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: Re: Bowering's reading habits//my reading list In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >We must be of a similart aGE ALL right. Well, I am only 5 years younger >than Bromige Sigh. Still at it, eh, George? GB is a scant 2 years my junior (in age, that is). And as we see above, already forgetting not only how to spell, but what the difference is between upper and lower case. And between 1933 and 1935. He shd be abt ready for a dive into the Glorious Pool himself. (And I dont believe I characterized The Glorious Pool as _bedside_ reading. In fact, I sd it was tame enough after one has limped thru bkly in the 60s. Not to mention vancouver in the 50s [v. further recommended reading, Bowering, Bowering, Matthews and Bromige, _Piccolo Mondo_, Coach House Books, Toronto.]) In short : Harrumph!! db ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:27:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Balestrieri, Peter" Subject: Re: titles and experiments - Jonathan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Jonathan, Yes, a book of titles without poems. The Table of Contents and Index as literary forms. I think up and find titles all the time. I just dump them into the body of whatever I'm working on. Then when a new poem is done, I search the last poem and pull out a good title. It's great to get the poems talking to each other, echoing each other. I've enjoyed this thread as it's the first in some time to address nuts and bolts. Regards, Pete ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:29:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAXINE CHERNOFF Subject: Reading at U of Utah In-Reply-To: <38A36500.88EF894C@mwt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thursday, Feb 17th, Paul Hoover and Judith Hall will be reading at 7:30 pm at the University in Salt Lake City. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 00:39:19 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: 'cultural capital' and 'prestige' MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How does the notion of 'cultural capital' differ from 'prestige'? Jim Andrews Vispo ~ Langu(im)age http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 13:30:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Query from Carolee Schneemann Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Carolee Schneemann ask if anyone on the list can help locate the source of this quotation (more or less accurate): "The proper result of a successful revolution is the contentment of our cats." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 12:39:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: The Filmic Art of Paul Sharits - Buffalo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was requested that I forward this message to the list. Chris -----Original Message----- From: Scott Propeack Date: Saturday, February 12, 2000 9:26 AM The Council of the Burchfield-Penney Art Center cordially invites you to a members' reception at the Burchfield-Penney Art Center; 1300 Elmwood Avenue in Buffalo NY. Friday, February 25, 6:30 to 8:30 p.m. for The Filmic Art of Paul Sharits February 26 - May 21, 2000 Sharits Film Program held at Hallwalls, 700 Main Street, Buffalo Fri. March 17, 8 p.m. Wintercourse (1962) S:TREAM:S:S:ECTION:S:ECTION:S:S:ECTIONED (1971) Rapture (1987) Sun. March 19, 8 p.m. Ray Gun Virus (1966) Axiomatic Granularity (1973) Color Sound Frames (1974) Wed. March 22, 8 p.m. Inferential Current (1971) Declarative Mode (1976-77) Epileptic Seizure Comparison (1978) Support for this exhibition has been provided by the New York State Council on the Arts and the James Carey Evans Endowment. The Burchfield-Penney Art Center is accredited by the American Association of Museums. A portion of the museum's general operating funds are provided by City of Buffalo and County of Erie. Additional support is generously provided by the Elizabeth Elser Doolittle Trust, Mary A. H. Rumsey Foundation, Peter & Elizabeth C. Tower Foundation, and the Center's membership. For further information, call (716) 878-6011. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 12:50:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Buffalo-area readings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While I'm making myself present, I may as well announce (belatedly) that a partial schedule of readings in Buffalo NY is available at the EPC; just follow the Weds@4+ link from the front page , then follow the link for Spring 2000 (though as yet it hardly feels like spring). One correction to the calendar: Brenda Coultas and Tim Davis had been scheduled to read on Saturday, 26 February at the Steel Bar (511 Tri-Main Building, Buffalo). Unfortunately, due to unforseen circumstances, Brenda Coultas will be unable to make the event, and I will be reading in her stead. Tim Davis will appear as scheduled. Christopher W. Alexander poetics list moderator ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:42:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: next week Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Next week at the Poetry Project: Monday, February 14 at 8 pm MY BLOODY VALENTINE Love, distortion, & torture with readings by poets Elinor Nauen, Prageeta Sharma, Brian Kim Stefans, Jorge Clar, Douglas Rothschild, Kara Rondina, Gena Mason, Richard O'Russa, Gillian McCain, Rebecca Wolff, Marco Villalobos, Bill Kushner, Ruth Altmann, Wendy Kramer, Betsy Fagin, Aaron Kiely, Tracy Blackmer, David Kirschenbaum, Rick Snyder, Sean Cole, and others! For more information on this event, check out today's DAILY NEWS for an interview with your friendly neighborhood Monday Night Coordinator, Anselm Berrigan. Wednesday, February 16 at 8 pm JONAS MEKAS & BASIL KING Jonas Mekas is an internationally acclaimed filmmaker and founding director of the Anthology Film Archives. He has directed films such as Paradise Not Yet Lost, He Stands in a Desert Counting the Seconds of His Life, and Reminiscences of a Journey to Lithuania. He has published seven books of poetry in his native Lithuanian; a translated selection, There is No Ithaca, was published by Black Thistle Press. Basil King's art-and-text books include The Complete Miniatures and Devotions. His latest book, Warp Spasms, is forthcoming from Spuytin Duyvil Press this year. Friday, February 18 at 10:30 pm A Measure of Conduct Barry Wallenstein reads from his new book of poems, A Measure of Conduct, with jazz accompaniment. Wallenstein has recently released a CD of jazz and poetry, In Case You Missed It, with musicians John Hicks, Arthur Blythe and others. [This reading is $8, $5 for students; $3 members] More information on all readings is available at http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.html All readings are $7, $5 for students and seniors, $3 for members. Admission at the door only. No advance tickets. The Poetry Project is wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. Call (212) 674-0910 for more information. *** NEW AT THE WEB SITE: Author and editor Maureen Owen talks about mimeograph publishing, publishing women, and the start-up and the revival of Telephone Books and Magazine, and other essential topics in "Notes on Publishing" at http://www.poetryproject.com/owen.html. Elizabeth Treadwell writes about Lucille, her new postcard series, at http://www.poetryproject.com/lucille.html Check it out! *** Public Service Announcements: Don't forget to send 2 copies of your poetry book published in 1999 to Poets House for display in the 2000 Poetry Publication Showcase. Deadline: February 19, 2000. For more information, go to http://www.poetshouse.org. Maureen Owen is editing a new book by Elio Schneeman, forthcoming from Telephone Books, and is trying to locate where many of his poems were previously published. If you published any poems by Elio Schneeman or you have information about where his poems were published, please e-mail Maureen Owen at . Editor-to-be Don Lee is looking for submissions for his magazine-to-be, The Fayetteville City Poetry Review. Send poems to him at: 15 North Locust #7, Fayetteville, Arkansas 7270 *** You are a frightful linear thing --from "[Shop & see fresh goat cheese]" by Hoa Nguyen in the new Tiny Press mag, cello entry *** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:42:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Kimmelman, Burt" Subject: Cid Corman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hello Everyone, Cid Corman's financial difficulties persist. I forward to the List, below, a message from Joe Massey who is trying to help Cid; his idea is that Cid could do some teaching (university adjunct work, for example, or perhaps a one-shot or series of workshops for an organization like Poets House or the Poetry Project) via the internet, for a fee. It is actually a fine idea for the right situation. Cid's point of view and reading ability are unique. Anyway, never mind my opinion on this, here is Massey: "I'm writing on behalf of Cid Corman. He's interested in doing an online workshop / class, and has asked me to gather information for him. If you have any suggestions as to how to go about this, know of any organizations or schools that might be interested in hosting such an event, please contact me at masseyjoseph@hotmail.com." Thank you, Burt Kimmelman kimmelman@njit.edu http://eies.njit.edu/~kimmelma ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:43:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Kelley Subject: Re: my censor addenda MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > More censorious questions or why I generally lurk. > Why does the discourse have to be so - to put it politely - academic? Is > this really the only way to be rigorous? What about the rigor of humor? > David Hess posted a piece about a Gertrude Stein conference to this List > some time ago in which he made his points with big tasty dollops of > hilarity. Hoa Nguyen, who later printed the piece in _Skanky Possum_ (issue > #2 i think) mentioned backchannel to me the profound silence with which this > was met, listside. Wheeww---a breath of fresh air. Thanks, Elizabeth, for your Gertrude list post and now this. It's been kinda hard for me to read all the academic stuff lately. Yes, I know I can delete. But it's not that I'm necessarily annoyed with any particular post/thread--just simply the fact that almost ALL of it lately seems so imploding-star-like. The gravity has worn out its welcome. But I *am* reading an extraordinarily delicate and oblique book about classic koans, "Two Arrows Meeting in Mid-Air," by John Daido Loori --and want to send along a quote: "A gourd floating on the water--push it down and it turns. A jewel in the sunlight--it has no definite shape. It cannot be attained by mindlessness, nor known by mindfulness. Immeasurably great people are turned about in the stream of words--is there anyone who can escape?" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:18:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: minor (?) clarification Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Since I posted a few hours ago (& have spent a happy rainy afternoon reading D. Barnes' _Nightwood_) I see I have gotten a lot of backchannels from various Poetics List citizens. I would just like to clarify that I do not agree with Kent Johnson that Charles Bernstein and Christopher Alexander are performing acts of censorship. Indeed, I would say that the fact that many women I know and know of feel or have felt uncomfortable, unheard, abused, etc when trying to engage in the discourse on this list (and I don't want to leave out any men who've felt the same) ALONG WITH the fact that a very few, mostly male, people seem to do most of the posting, taking up a necessarily limited space (limited by how much email one wants to read perhaps rather than by cyberspace) are both in themselves forms of censorship which is not a censorship that can be laid to blame and rest on the head of Mr. B or Mr. A, or indeed anyone in particular, ah there's the rub I'd much rather have this discussed in this forum than to be flooded with backchannels. Thanks, Elizabeth ___________________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell Double Lucy Books & Outlet Magazine http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 18:26:11 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maz881@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Shape of Time MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit judy r wrote: <> At this point you can click the Print or Preview command buttons to output the entire report specified by Create Price List. Or you may further narrow the ranged defined by Create Price List by specifying a Customer or Item number in the left hand combobox and building up a boolean search expression. See Chapter 13 for more information about building search expressions. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:57:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: gender again Comments: cc: yedd@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The fact that a luminary like Susan Howe does not even want to hear secondhand of what goes on on this list (a little bird told me) makes Kent Johnson's theory (as spelled out in that recent issue of Skanky Possum) that the exclusion of Henry Gould from this list marks "Language writing's institutional denouement" seem, well, if not absurd, at least a very minor point. I will let this play itself out without further comment from me, though I cling to the hope that others find the gender imbalance here troubling along with the impossibility, it seems, of discussing issues of gender -- in poetics -- . Elizabeth ___________________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell Double Lucy Books & Outlet Magazine http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 18:23:39 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: my censor addenda MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Elizabeth Treadwell wrote: > More censorious questions or why I generally lurk. > Why does the discourse have to be so - to put it politely - > academic? it is, doesn't have to be. insertions such as your are encouraging & may encourage. > Is > this really the only way to be rigorous? or even, why must anyone maintain the cloak of rigor, why not talk or conversation on its own, or perplexity or the journalistic or the diaristic. > Is it > the nature of listservs to dull the senses? Are we to believe high > seriousness to be the only argot that translates on email? this list is a virtual anomaly, sometimes I wonder when it will recover a vital idenitity which is only now suggested. a real part of list culture is the spontaneity of reply. if I happen to write late at night, the late at night crew can kick in with a tag team discussion, with its own tenor & its own storyline....the 9 to 5 listers, often writing from work approach the discussion in a different way. when the discussion are live, unmoderated their is a vitality to the community that this list will not have as long as we have to wait sometimes 4-5 days for messages to come thru. then my main reason to read becomes to remember what was being talked about, rather than to live & discuss from the comments of others that are that moment in my head. & list revigoration takes brave souls such as yourself to speak what on her mind, & perhaps not being too concerned whether folks respond. Ive grown accustomed to a response to maybe 5% of my posts, but then my interests are marginalized by their visual/verbal gesturing. > (I work at Kmart > so I don't have to talk like that. A joke.) (A joke is offensive. -- > My > fake Gertrude Stein quote.) "the little verses seek their meal. . ." a real Orrick Johns quote. mIEKAL ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 20:52:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: untitled MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - all this traffic backwards and forwards /usr/bin/rz -vv -b -E shuttling packets with similar names /usr/bin/sz -vv -b zz you might never know what you'll find /usr/bin/sz -vv -b en it's a grid or raster, its cultural production /usr/bin/sz -vv -b ww you can hear the sound of the shuttle /usr/bin/rz -vv -b -E operations are closely watched /usr/bin/sz -vv -b zz control is all the way down to the singular bit /usr/bin/sz -vv -b zz these things occur in place, following each other /usr/bin/sz -vv -b yy they move cleanly, screaming network! network! /usr/bin/sz -vv -b ar they move in absolute silence /usr/bin/sz -vv -b zz perhaps the wires are slightly heated, charred /usr/bin/sz -vv -b yy anything could be moving here, just anything /usr/bin/sz -vv -b zz when i turn my neck i hear bones grating /usr/bin/sz -vv -b ba ________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 22:55:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard Dillon Subject: Re: 'cultural capital' and 'prestige' Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Neither of these words imply in any way the capacity to inspire anyone anywhere to take one more breath or step which is what literary writing bottom line is - for. ---------- >From: Jim Andrews >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: 'cultural capital' and 'prestige' >Date: Fri, Feb 11, 2000, 3:39 AM > >How does the notion of 'cultural capital' differ from 'prestige'? > >Jim Andrews >Vispo ~ Langu(im)age >http://vispo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 06:13:55 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Executive Director's position @ SPD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed This is an administrative and fundraising position primarily, but as such it is one of the very most important ones in the US in terms of its conequence on poetry -- moreso, say, than any position with the NEA. SPD deserves and needs the best. Ron Silliman ------- SPD Seeks Executive Director Small Press Distribution (SPD), a non-profit 501(c)(3) corporation, and the country's only exclusively literary wholesaler, is currently seeking an Executive Director. This is an advocacy position for a dynamic organization positioned for national leadership. Established in 1969, SPD distributes 560 small presses with a staff of eight and a $1 million annual budget. We also work closely on a year-round basis with writers, small independent literary publishers, libraries, independent booksellers, schools, and major arts funders. The ideal candidate will have at least an undergraduate degree and proven fundraising and management experience, financial and business acumen, and publishing or marketing expertise. Some travel (BEA and ALA conventions, NY funder visits, etc.) and evening/weekend meetings are required. I. Job Responsibilities Fundraising. Work with board and consultant to create and implement annual and long-range fundraising plans, including: foundation, government, and corporate grants; major gifts; membership program; special events; cultivate and research prospects for cash and in-kind contributions. Financial Management. Develop and monitor annual budget and long-range budget projections. Regular analysis of SPD's fiscal health via development of monthly statements and financial reports to board. General Management. Supervision of assistant director, business manager, operations director, sales & marketing director, and development assistant. Provide general management oversight of book distribution operations and publisher relations. Initiate and conduct strategic planning as needed. Conduct annual performance reviews and set compensation levels for staff. Oversee all major contracts (landlord, security, insurance, etc.). Work with 12 person board and committees on a regular basis. Sales & Marketing. Work with staff to develop annual marketing plan, review annual sales projections, raise SPD profile, promote small presses and identifiable audiences, and develop collaborations to address field wide concerns. Technology. Oversee further integration of technology into SPD operations, including development of EDI, the SPD web site, and e-commerce and web based sales capacity. II. Compensation/Benefits Negotiable. Full health benefits, dental and other benefits; paid vacation. III. To Apply Mail cover letter, resume, and three employment references to Search Committee, Small Press Distribution, Inc., 1341 7th Street, Berkeley, California 94710. All resumes will be acknowledged; only finalists will be interviewed. No calls, please. Application Deadline: March 1, 2000 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 10:07:23 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: National Poetry Foundation Conference In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" is mexico not part of north america? how about the caribbean? At 9:14 AM -0400 2/11/00, sylvester pollet wrote: >grown, >and the deadline for abstracts has been extended. Thanks, Sylvester> > >Deadline Extended! > >The Opening of the Field: A Conference on >North American Poetry in the 1960s >University of Maine >Orono, Maine >June 28-July 2, 2000 > >The National Poetry Foundation invites paper and panel proposals for a >conference on North American poetry of the 1960s. Proposals are welcome>on >writers of previous generations whose literary careers extended into >the 1960s, such as Louis Zukofsky, George Oppen, Robert Lowell, Charles >Olson, Anne Sexton, Elizabeth Bishop, Lorine Niedecker, etc.; on poets >or literary movements that climaxed in the 1960s, including the Beat, >Black Mountain, San Francisco Renaissance, and New York schools; on >women poets and poets of color, who achieved a broader visibility >during this decade; and on new literary moments that began to define >themselves in this period, such as the ethnopoetic movement and >language-centered writing. Papers are also invited on the general >cultural background of the period, including such themes as the >tensions between "academic" poetry and various attempts to bring poetry >into the lives of people "in the streets"; the relationship of poetry >and popular culture, including rock music; and the role of poetry in >the anti-war movement. As the title of the conference suggests, we >invite proposals on Canadian as well as on American poetry in the 1960s. > >The conference will begin on Wednesday evening, June 28, and will >conclude shortly after noon on Sunday, July 2. Accommodations will be >available at a reasonable rate in university residence halls. >Registration will be $85, with a reduced rate of $60 for graduate >students. > >Confirmed participants as of February 1, 2000, include Marjorie >Perloff, Albert Gelpi, Charles Altieri, Michael Davidson, Joan >Retallack, Frank Davey, Lorenzo Thomas, Rosmarie Waldrop, Keith >Waldrop, Ann Charters, Joseph Conte, Keith Tuma, Mark Scroggins, Maria >Damon, Alan Golding, Barrett Watten, Lynn Keller, Peter Middleton, Ron >Silliman, Kathleen Fraser, George Bowering, Aldon Nielsen, Michael >Heller, Jane Augustine, Theodore Enslin, and many others.. > >Send one-page abstracts before March 15, 2000, to > Burton Hatlen, Director, > National Poetry Foundation > Room 304, 5752 Neville Hall, > University of Maine >Orono, ME 04469-5752 >Hatlen@Maine.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 19:13:47 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Shapiro Subject: reminder: NYC Bread Loaf event 2/22 ;NYC event for Boston Book Rev 2/25 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you to those who have already RSVPed. This is just a reminder of the events. National Arts Club event Location: 15 Gramercy Park South, NYC (near 20th Street & Park Ave) For more information 212 604-4823 or email gshapirony@aol.com jacket required for men February 22,2000 Bread Loaf Writers' Conference at 75 7:30pm FREE David Haward Bain (author of Whose Woods These Are: A History of Bread Loaf Writers' Conference) will give a slide show and talk. Michael Collier, Director, will introduce three Bread Loaf Faculty. In association with Middlebury College's Bicentennial (1800-2000). The three Bread Loaf faculty who will read are: Linda Pastan, author of CARNIVAL NIGHTS: NEW AND SELECTED POEMS, 1968-1998 (WW Norton) Agha Shalid Ali, author of THE COUNTRY WITHOUT A POST OFFICE (WW Norton) Thomas Mallon, author of TWO MOONS: A NOVEL David Haward Bain has written Empire Express, about the building of the transcontinental railroad in the 1860's. He also wrote WHOSE WOODS THESE ARE, a history of Bread Loaf. Michael Collier has published three collections of poetry: The Clasp and Other Poems, The Folded Heart, and The Neighbor (1995), and has edited The Wesleyan Tradition: Four Decades of American Poetry. Forthcoming is The New Bread Loaf Anthology of Contemporary American Poetry (University Press of New England). He has received a NEA fellowship, a "Discovery"/The Nation Award, and a Pushcart Prize. He is currently on the English and writing faculty at the University of Maryland. RSVP to gshapirony@aol.com ========= February 25, 2000 6:30pm FREE National Arts Club 15 Gramercy Park South (near 20th Street and Park Avenue) New York, New York (take 6 train to 23 street) jacket required for men A Boston Book Review Evening: Charles M. Stang on "The Bliss of Discipline" . Among his other solitary practices, Henry David Thoreau was an avid reader of ancient philosophy. This talk will trace the Stoic and Epicurean influences on Thoreau's Walden. Introduced by Theoharis C. Theoharis, Editor of the Boston Book Review Charles Stang graduated from Harvard and has taught at Eton. He is studying theology at University of Chicago, and is a Contributing Writer for the Boston Book Review. Introduction by Theoharis C. Theoharis, Editor of the Boston Book Review. A teacher at Harvard University, Theoharis is the author of a forthcoming translation of the complete poetic works of Constantine P. Cavafy, which will be published by Harcourt in 2001. He is the author of Ibsen's Drama : Right Action and Tragic Joy, as well as Joyce's Ulysses : An Anatomy of the Soul. RSVP to gshapirony@aol.com ========= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 08:36:48 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Subject: Re: Query from Carolee Schneemann MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Charles Bernstein To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Monday, 14 February 2000 07:31 Subject: Query from Carolee Schneemann >Carolee Schneemann ask if anyone on the list can help locate the source of this quotation (more or less accurate): > >"The proper result of a successful revolution is the contentment of our cats." No I dont know. I thought that it was Carolee Schneemann that said that. But please tell Carolee that - along somewhat similar lines - Kinky Friedman says: "A happy dog means you're living right". (TV interview 25 September, 1999) best Tony Green ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:00:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: trAce interview MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The trAce interview/chat is at: http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/community/workshop/alansond.htm - check it out if you're interested. - Alan Internet Text at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Partial at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 18:17:31 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen McKevitt Subject: Re: Shape of Time Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I'm surprised I didn't see more responses to this come thru my digest version. I am obsessed with space/time--and have some idea that I'll actually finish my thesis on it. What I found really informed my writing and how time occurs was seeing theatre and dance. Specifically (dance) Margaret Jenkin's "Breathe Normally," (oh, but that's because I'm partial to dance theatre). I don't perceive time as linear at all, and I often think we just "think" we are moving through the world chronologically. Certainly memory doesn't work in this way--Celan's "Breathturn" is a good example of time functioning differently. As for how theatre informs: the different threads of time that occur in the same space--the 8-10Pm time, the time the play inhabits, and the time the characters inhabit all happen in the same space and probably the same time--if we take the 8-10PM element as structure. Of course, this is nothing new to poetry (I'm also thinking the cliche "theatre of the page," whatever that...anyway). What I am experimenting with in poetry is taking these stage/playwriting elements and deconstructing them in the way that character/poem and reader/audience experiences interchange thru the work--that all experiences essentially exist at the same time, or perhaps they exist simultaneously thru the theory of parallel universes or time travel (the fourth dimension). What troubles me now is the irony of assigning the words an order and space on the page--it seems so static to have to proceed this way. A book to have a good argument with (if you can abide by its bestseller status/nonsense) is "Einstein's Dreams" by Alan Lightman--as example of what not to do. I am partial to the study of black holes, so of course, Stephen Hawking and then there was that Nova about time travel and bubble theory. Karen McKevitt >Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:27:32 -0600 >From: Judy Roitman >Subject: Shape of Time > >Everyone seems to perceive time as one-dimensional (whether in a straight >line or wave-like or circular or...) but in special relativity it has a >sort of smeary two-dimensional quality, i.e., the separation between events >is time-like or space-like depending on whether a certain quantity is >positive or negative (I know all this is taking place in 4-D, but I'm >collapsing space into 1-D for the sake of imagery). Does anyone perceive >things that way? > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Judy Roitman | "Whoppers Whoppers Whoppers! >Math, University of Kansas | memory fails >Lawrence, KS 66045 | these are the days." >785-864-4630 | >fax: 785-864-5255 | Larry Eigner, >1927-1996 >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >http://www.math.ukans.edu/~roitman/ >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 22:58:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rebecca Wolff Subject: lit mag fair Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I'm posting here an invitation that I sent out in the mail to CLMP's mailing list; if you are an editor of a lit mag and you haven't seen this, please read. Thanks, Rebecca **** =46eb 1, 2000 Dear Literary Journal Publisher, We are Jenine Bockman and Rebecca Wolff; the editors, respectively, of Literal Latt=E6 and Fence. Together we have been working on projects we hope will improve the literary journal *"industry" (if you can call it that!)* Specifically, we are concerned with distribution and with visibility. We hope you will agree that by working together as publishers we can improve for all of us the public awareness of and appreciation for literary magazines. To that end, we are launching what we hope will become an annual event: the Literary Magazine Fair, to be held in New York City, on April 16th, 2000 at Housing Works Used Bookstore Caf=E6. Housing Works is a non-profit organization whose proceeds go to support the community of homeless people with AIDS. This used bookstore/cafe in SoHo has become one of New York's prime meeting places and literary venues. *This letter is an invitation to your journal to participate in the fair and a description of the event.* The aim of this Fair is to draw much-needed, much-deserved attention to the incredible range of journals being produced in this country by independent and university publishers alike. *The goal of the event is to attract* an interested reading and general public by hosting a festive and informative day highlighting the wealth of literary magazines available *in the country?*. *How??? Jump to the from noon to three section, then go back to media* Because this is an unusual event for a good cause *(Housing Works _and_ Literary Magazines or just remind them what the good cause is...) *we expect to be able to attract the attention of the media, in all its glory. =46rom noon to three the Fair will be open for browsing, purchasing, and conversation. *Tell them where their magazine will be- on a table? lining the book shelves? in a big overflowing bin?* At three the Council of Literary Magazines and Presses will host a roundtable discussion which will feature literary magazine editors and artists from other media genres, including hypertext and film, in a conversation about the future of the printed word and its relation/relevance to other creative forms. (Topic subject to change) At five, CLMP, Literal Latt=E6 and Fence will host a cocktail party reception for publishers and the people who want to meet them. The idea of this event is to make journals extremely attractive and accessible *(to who? this sentence dangles...). Put the media stuff here?.*All participating journals will offer sample copies for the low, low price of $2. Our hope is that attendees will be moved to check out a broad variety of journals. All proceeds from sales will go to Housing Works, giving readers further incentive to spend their dollars here. The real support for journals is in subscriptions, and so our hope *(or "this is a great opportunity for participating mags...to")* is that participating journals will offer attendees half-price subscription vouchers (of their own devising). Bringing in new subscribers is the most time-consuming and expensive part of circulation maintenance: a half-price subscription now is a full-price renewal later. If one of your editors attends the Fair, you can send as many sample copies as you like. If your journal is unable to send an editor to the Fair, you may still send up to 10 sample copies, as well as a hefty stack of half-price subscription vouchers. All participants will receive a copy of the door list. *highlight that they get the list-* We hope this event is the first of many group efforts. We believe that the problems literary journals face could be better approached with the force of a united front. In the future we plan to concentrate our efforts on the hoary beast of distribution, and we're quite convinced that a group voice will be more convincing to bookstores and distributors alike. Please fill out the form below by February 14th to ensure your place at the =46air. Your check for $15, made out to WordSci, Inc., will help us cover administrative costs. Because nothing like this has been done before (in our memory), we need firm commitments from you immediately so that we can go forward with the logistics of space, organization, etc. We look forward to hearing from you, and we hope we'll see you at the Fair. Jenine Bockman, litlatte@aol.com Rebecca Wolff, rwolff@aol.com ******************************************************** ____ Yes, __________________________ journal will participate, Our check for $15, made out to WordSci, Inc., is enclosed. ____ I, _____________________________, editor, will attend the Fair. ____ We cannot send an editor but will send up to 10 non-returnable $2 copies. ____ No, __________________________ journal cannot participate, but keep us informed of future efforts. Contact email: _______________________________ Contact phone number: _______________________________ Contact address: _______________________________ _______________________________ Please feel free to tell us your thoughts, questions, comments: Return this form to: Literal Latt=E6, 61 E. 8th Street, Suite 240, New York= , NY 10003 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 23:04:30 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rebecca Wolff Subject: wrong lit mag fair letter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yikes--I just realized I sent a draft of the letter instead of the final one. I don't seem to have the final one we sent but the draft gives you the general idea; plus it shows you our "process" to boot. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:02:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kyle Conner Subject: HIGHWIRE READING 2/19 Comments: To: abdalhayy@aol.com, aberrigan@excite.com, abirge@nimbus.ocis.temple.edu, agil@erols.com, allison_cobb@edf.org, ALPlurabel@aol.com, amorris1@swarthmore.edu, Amossin@aol.com, apr@libertynet.org, avraham@sas.upenn.edu, ayperry@aol.com, Babsubus@aol.com, baratier@megsinet.net, bcole@nimbus.ocis.temple.edu, bdowns@columbiabooks.com, Becker@law.vill.edu, bette343@hotmail.com, bjfoley@aol.com, BMasi@aol.com, bochner@prodigy.net, booglit@excite.com, BStrogatz@aol.com, cahnmann@dolphin.upenn.edu, chris@bluefly.com, Chrsmccrry@aol.com, coryjim@earthlink.net, Cschnei978@aol.com, daisyf1@juno.com, danedels@sas.upenn.edu, dburnham@sas.upenn.edu, dcpoetry@mailcity.com, dcypher1@bellatlantic.net, DennisLMo@aol.com, DROTHSCHILD@penguinputnam.com, dsilver@pptnet.com, dsimpson@NETAXS.com, ejfugate@yahoo.com, ekeenagh@astro.ocis.temple.edu, ENauen@aol.com, ErrataBlu@aol.com, esm@vm.temple.edu, Feadaniste@aol.com, fleda@odin.english.udel.edu, Forlano1@aol.com, FPR@history.upenn.edu, fuller@center.cbpp.org, gbiglier@nimbus.ocis.temple.edu, gmarder@hotmail.com, gnawyouremu@hotmail.com, goodwina@xoommail.com, HighwireGallery@aol.com, hstarr@dept.english.upenn.edu, hthomas@kutztown.edu, icepalace@mindspring.com, insekt@earthlink.net, ivy2@sas.upenn.edu, jeng1@earthlink.net, jennifer_coleman@edf.org, jimstone2@juno.com, jjacks02@astro.ocis.temple.edu, JKasdorf@mcis.messiah.edu, JKeita@aol.com, jlutt3@pipeline.com, jmasland@pobox.upenn.edu, JMURPH01@email.vill.edu, johnfattibene@juno.com, josman@astro.ocis.temple.edu, jschwart@thunder.ocis.temple.edu, jvitiell@nimbus.ocis.temple.edu, jwatkins@unix.temple.edu, kelly@dept.english.upenn.edu, kelly@COMPSTAT.WHARTON.upenn.edu, Kjvarrone@aol.com, kmcquain@ccp.cc.pa.us, kristing@pobox.upenn.edu, ksherin@dept.english.upenn.edu, kzeman@sas.upenn.edu, lcabri@dept.english.upenn.edu, lcary@dept.english.upenn.edu, leo@isc.upenn.edu, lgoldst@dept.english.upenn.edu, lisewell@worldnet.att.net, llisayau@hotmail.com, lorabloom@erols.com, lsoto@sas.upenn.edu, lstroffo@hornet.liunet.edu, marf@NETAXS.com, MargBarr@aol.com, matthart@english.upenn.edu, Matthew.McGoldrick@ibx.com, mbmc@op.net, melodyjoy2@hotmail.com, mgpiety@drexel.edu, mholley@brynmawr.edu, michaelmccool@hotmail.com, miyamorik@aol.com, mmagee@dept.english.upenn.edu, mnichol6@osf1.gmu.edu, mollyruss@juno.com, mopehaus@hotmail.com, MTArchitects@compuserve.com, mwbg@yahoo.com, mytilij@english.upenn.edu, nanders1@swarthmore.edu, nawi@citypaper.net, odonnell@siam.org, penwaves@mindspring.com, pla@sas.upenn.edu, poetry4peeps@hotmail.com, putnamc@washpost.com, QDEli@aol.com, rachelmc@sas.upenn.edu, rdupless@vm.temple.edu, rediguanas@erols.com, repohead@rattapallax.com, richardfrey@dca.net, robinh5@juno.com, ron.silliman@gte.net, sernak@juno.com, Sfrechie@aol.com, singinghorse@erols.com, stewart@dept.english.upenn.edu, subpoetics-l@hawaii.edu, susan.wheeler@nyu.edu, SusanLanders@yahoo.com, swalker@dept.english.upenn.edu, Ron.Swegman@mail.tju.edu, Tasha329@aol.com, tdevaney@brooklyn.cuny.edu, thorpe@sas.upenn.edu, tosmos@compuserve.com, travmar03@msn.com, twells4512@aol.com, upword@mindspring.com, v2139g@vm.temple.edu, vhanson@netbox.com, vmehl99@aol.com, wh@dept.english.upenn.edu, wvanwert@nimbus.ocis.temple.edu, wwhitman@libertynet.org, ywisher@hotmail.com, zurawski@astro.temple.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit *************HIGHWIRE READINGS****************** Old Man Winter's a big old BLOWHARD~!! COME HEAR THE POETRY OF... D A N I E L (ABD AL-HAYY) M O O R E L E E A N N B R O W N Says Ron Silliman of this one: "one of the all-time inspired combinations, I have to say." Why? Lord knows. Come and find out. Highwire Gallery, 139 N. 2nd St. Saturday, February 19, 8PM ***What you missed: the last reading was a tense mix of blues, rants & and plain old bad behavior, as CHRIS STROFFOLINO tossed out the formula to harangue the audience on the finer points of ambivalence, death & the Twillight Zone whilst he read some of his juvenalia at twice its normal speed, while YOLANDA WISHER performed a soulful hybrid of song and poetry, accompanied by her partner Mark Glassio on upright bass. POETS for 2/19 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ DANIEL (ABDAL-HAYY) MOORE has been writing poetry for several decades. His career had an auspicious inaugauration upon the publication of his first 2 books by Ferlinghetti's CITY LIGHTS press. Moore has since travelled extensively, and is currently at work on a small commissioned book about the Buddha. He will accompany himself on zither. LEE ANN BROWN's book POLYVERSE, which won the National Book Award, has just been released on SUN & MOON Press. She is an active member of the New York poetry scene, and is a filmmaker as well as a poet. POEMS ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from POLYVERSE, by Lee Ann Brown Peony moist white collapse marilyn's red kiss tissue soft drop all at table bunching tinged range: mauve, magenta, white carnation blue collar of ants populate taste parts traditionally departing painfully from an idea Poppy Oracle eye over the couch color of coral slip cove thistle bomb pink shear working prick round the ball we bleed edge serrated hairstem green degrees dying ************************************************* from MILLENNIAL PROGNOSTICATIONS, by Abd al-Hayy 8 / THE NIGHT SHOWERS MULTICOLORED SPARKS The night showers multicolored sparks over the ark's bow as it plows through the stars velvet night night of beneficence night without equal singular as a pin held straight up in the dark with its sharp tip many faces crowd forward to look the crowd opens a space the object of their burning eyes and curious faces earth like a blue jeweled ball suspended in black velvet velvet night night of beneficence night without equal night showering multicolored sparks over the ark's bow as it plows through the stars 12/17 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 02:23:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: the cow MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - the cow i am nikuko. please tell me what your problems are. after you are done typing, click return twice. and if I return once to you. i shall look no further than the truth. and if I return twice to you shall the truth be known by she who sent me forth. crying from the top of the mountain, yearning from the valley, no one ceases to wander. the cessation of all desire is the beginning of comprehension and in such dreary worlds i will be stone or carving. you will know me by my shape, that of signs and symbols in your dreaming, nothing coming forth, nothing returning, nothing entering, nothing leaving. nothing of a jar or fire without smoke, nothing of a cow or a white horse, nothing of horses or no-jar, no-fire, nothing of white, nothing of no-cows. coming and going, it is all the same, you arrive where you have always been. reconcile yourself with all creatures, lie down with them, caress them, drain yourself of all desire, produce them within you. there is no fear that is groundless, fear holds the pathway, veering just above the highest peaks, beneath the ocean bottoms. it runs faster than the flood, higher than any lightning, louder than any thunder, it burns through time, white fire, burns through space, black fire. nothing can be turned to good effect, to turn nothing is to do nothing. to lose oneself is to gain nothing to gain oneself is to lose nothing. ___________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 23:22:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Larsen Subject: echelons of San Jose Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" THE SAN JOSE MANUAL OF STYLE HAS SOME WORDS FOR YOU HALF OF THEM ARE "IT" -- Third issue, feat. work by: Dodie Bellamy Kirby Congdon Bigfoot Lauren Gudath Betsy Fagin Peter Neufeld Mary Burger Elizabeth Treadwell Albert DeSilver Jonathan Blum and an interview with Raymond Pettibon $4 ppd., concealed or payable to the editors, Beth Murray and David Larsen 399 N. Tenth St. San Jose, CA 95112 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:44:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Knoebel Subject: Cyberpoetry for Valentine's Day MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Two projects: Valentine Files at EPC http://epc.buffalo.edu/features/valentine/ frAme 4: Love in the Digital Revolution / trAce Conference http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/frame4/valentine.html -- David Knoebel http://www.clickpoetry.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 02:09:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Cunningham Subject: Neo-Essentialists! In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" As the sole surviving member of the Committee to Develop Polemical Responses to Polemical Positions (the carnage, I assure you, was stupendous), we (I) proudly announce the dissolution of the C.D.P.R.P.P. and the formation of the Neo-Essentialist Movement. Our (my) manifesto appears below. We (I) thank Jacques and the ongoing Bourdieu discussion for our (my) inspiration. NEO-ESSENTIALIST MANIFESTO 1. The work of art is a machine for the production of life; or, in Baudelairian terms, an artifice for the alleviation of boredom. Death (even and especially the temporary death of thinking) is the only abstraction which is also universal. All other abstractions, because they are encountered in materials, are only negatively universal (that is, to the degree that they strive to overcome lifelessness). The essence of the art work is therefore never any particular way it resists the cessation of life, but only its trying to do so. 2. Temporary and falsely-universal essentials are, however, real and actual during the time they operate for art’s machine. The assertion that the essence of art is the production of death, for example, might also be productively fed into the machine. 3. A machine is useful only in the way that its products are useful. If the machine’s product is “life” then its usefulness can no longer be reduced to empiricist, pragmatic or otherwise utilitarian systems. Art is a machine only in the sense that it is made by human beings. 4. Anti-essentialism is produced by isolating Spinozian determinism from its foundational premise. Spinoza believed that the logic of mathematics provided the necessary transcendental position for the explanation of human thought and emotion. When the logic of power or self-interest (social reason) takes the place of the logic of mathematics (universal reason), the logic of mathematics becomes part of what now must be explained. The new position must presume to be, itself, prior to universal reason. But, since universal reason first posited and bounded the idea of essence, this new determinism therefore needs a non-concept, namely anti-essentialism, as its new transcendental position. 5. Neo-essentialism, however, holds that both the logic of mathematics and the logic of power are products of art. They have been produced by the on-going attempts (in all their forms) to flee the absence of life (in all its forms). 6. One day, according to Neo-essentialism, it will be clear that using politics as a measuring category for the value of art only confused cause with application. Once life is produced, its application is a matter of politics. Without life, there is no such thing as politics. 7. Irony, which has been consistently misunderstood as a secret language between adepts or as the rehabilitation of language tainted by its association with power, is at best a gesture indicating the distance between thought and its object. In other words, like any fake essential irony it is designed to produce the necessary opposition that gives being its life. 8. Positions, including the pseudo-positions of fake science, fake philosophy, fake manifestoes and fake essentials, are likewise real so long as they separate language-ideas that desire to be invisible in their togetherness. 9. The hidden term in dialectics is perversity. When the description of a historical or internally-arising contradiction is persuasive, it acceptance has already been conditioned by the broad desire to create new, antithetical life in the face of all thesis. 10. Wittgenstein’s famous last line in the Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus (“What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence”) has a Neo-essentialist corollary: “Whatever can be said must be said.” Signed, the sole member of the Neo-Essentialist Movement, Brent Cunningham ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1990 01:14:58 -0500 Reply-To: Brian Stefans Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Stefans Subject: gender count (or whatever it was, can't remember) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Elizabeth, My sense on why some writing on the list seems "academic" and why these posts generate response probably has to do with the fact that these posts promote frames which extend beyond their particular subject matter, whereas appraisals often remain generally confined to the issue at hand. However, my experience is that appraisals, and enthusiastic posts -- I will even say "happy" and "humorous" posts, positive thinking posts that seem to imply possibility in poetics rather than limitations -- are often read with great pleasure, as I know I have read them that way. As a frequent and often inconstistent poster -- haranguing one day and trying to say something nice about a recent work another -- I find that I never get responses to the posts that approach specific works whereas the ones that take on another person's frame, usually in an attempt to adjust the frame, maybe even destroy it, or at least to add peculiar data to the discourse to suggest places where the frame is limited. I don't think there's anything terribly wrong with this; for example, a review posted out of the blue will most likely not be dropping into an existing thread, and if nobody's particularly angry about what it says, or intrigued but actually just pleased by it, there is little need to respond in public (that is, because the review is not attempting a "frame," it is talking about possiblity). But I get a fair amount of backchannels saying "nice review, I'll check out the book." (I usually take a cigartette break then.) I didn't read Wendy's post on Debbie, but I bet it might have not registered partly because few people have seen or read the book (the problem with reviews, they discuss books that people have not yet read, so who can complain?). I think Debbie is quite complicated and really interesting and important -- I'd love to write about it myself -- and Lisa gave a tremendous reading here which, I think (not to overstate it) literally changed people's lives. I'd like to know if anyone experienced the Williams-seeing-the-Duchamp-in-the-Armory-show feeling about it -- that would be very interesting to me, since I sense that others in the room felt this (I've known her work for years, so alas I did not experience this myself, not to say I wasn't impressed). All sorts of young poets walked out of that room with their little blue books in hand -- and Lisa's Canadian, which made it doubly interesting since I've wondered whether New York is not very interested in what's happening elsewhere. Anyway, I guess my point is that it's hard to guage what gets responses and why -- it's pretty complicated, but I think can be interesting to think about from a sociological perspective. I'd be more humorous now myself, but I've had a rough day. Consequently, with the (undestandable) prickliness of some of readers, and the way that "tone" is often not conveyed completely on this list and can be mistranslated across cultures -- ranging from California to New Zealand -- it's hard to inject good wry humor in a post without possibliy offending someone. I often think a solution is "decorousness" rather than "humor" -- i.e. try to write like T.S. Eliot (with different content, of course), so as not to bother someone intensely. This may in fact "dull the senses", and it can, indeed, be boring. Alas! What to do? As for censorship, I know for a fact that several emails have simply not made it due to technological problems the EPC has been having (notice the new icons?) -- David Bromige, for instance (as he mentioned in one of his more recent posts), lost a few and was feeling orphaned and lonely, and I lost a few myself (my best writing!). Maintaining a server can be quite hellish, I know from experience, and we often don't appreciate the effort these guys make to keep the thing alive. So at least, on occasion, it's not censorship, though I felt that's what was happening to me. (I don't know what Kent has to say, I don't have the issue.) I don't quite know how to discuss gender in a productive manner myself, ditto for race -- I prefer social experiments rather than discourse in that instance. (I'm playing Yoko Ono in an upcoming Kevin Killian play in New York, for example -- that'll be a trip, got to get my greatest hits CD out!) It's too prickly for me, and I'm afraid people would take me for a "native informer", or at least get confused in the tangle of ironies I have erected for myself when talking about this. I had a pleasant experience yesterday, though, at an Eric Gamalinda reading (he's a Filipino poet whom I've known for a while). I had thought someone we were talking to was Japanese, but she was Filipino, and so she asked me, "Are _you_ Japanese?" and I said, "No, I'm Korean," and then (very jokingly, it was _humor_, "I hate Japanese." This was, of course, a reference to the colonization of Korea by Japan, which few non-Asians seem to know about. Eric, not missing a beat, looked up from the book he was signing and said, in a fake-fatherly voice, "Now now, that's all in the past!" In other words, he totally got what I meant, but I think in another context it would have brought dead silence, discomfort, etc. I call this a "pleasant experience" since, the "avant garde" culture in New York being pretty monotone in terms of race (which never really bothered me, just concerns me a bit), and it was nice to share that kind of joke. Anyway, gotta run. Yours, Brian More censorious questions or why I generally lurk. Why does the discourse have to be so - to put it politely - academic? Is this really the only way to be rigorous? What about the rigor of humor? David Hess posted a piece about a Gertrude Stein conference to this List some time ago in which he made his points with big tasty dollops of hilarity. Hoa Nguyen, who later printed the piece in _Skanky Possum_ (issue #2 i think) mentioned backchannel to me the profound silence with which this was met, listside. From my early days on the list, I also recall fondly Wendy Kramer's happy post on Lisa Robertson's _Debbie: An Epic_, in which she rendered both a scan of the scene at a reading Robertson gave in New York and her own reading of _Debbie_ with an enthuisasm at once intricate and flip, like a flower. Alas such pleasures are few and far between. Is it the nature of listservs to dull the senses? Are we to believe high seriousness to be the only argot that translates on email? (I work at Kmart so I don't have to talk like that. A joke.) (A joke is offensive. -- My fake Gertrude Stein quote.) sent with good wishes, Elizabeth ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 18:25:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "daboo@sfsu.edu" Subject: from the Poetry Ctr at SFSU Comments: To: afsf@afsf.com, a_c_t@sirius.com, klobucar@unixg.ubc.ca, berkson@sirius.com, books@blacksparrowpress.com, chrisko@sirius.com, harmonyprince@webtv.net, fabarts@silcon.com, brent@spdbooks.org, Wischixin@aol.com, bstrang@sfsu.edu, bruce_ackley@compumentor.org, rtatar@caartscouncil.com, minka@grin.net, chana@mills.edu, CharSSmith@aol.com, kunos@earthlink.net, dietz@theriver.com, xoxcole@cs.com, dworkin@princeton.edu, craig@akpress.org, avbks@metro.net, copy123@jps.net, plonsey@sunra.berkeley.edu, duende@unisono.net.mx, passages@inetarena.com, steved@sfsu.edu, dcmb@metro.net, ddelp@corp.webtv.net, dmelt@ccnet.com, dada@cdm.sfai.edu, sixt@sirius.com, djmess@sunmoon.com, Dougolly@aol.com, drewgard@erols.com, talismaned@aol.com, Callahan@uclink4.berkeley.edu, elaine@citylights.com, leake@uclink4.berkeley.edu, dblelucy@lanminds.com, Ewhip@aol.com, ewillis@mills.edu, heyeli@jps.net, edelloye@best.com, mcnaughton.eugenia@epamail.epa.gov, gmd@dnai.com, gisfdir@sirius.com, hrohmer@cbookpress.org, heather@spdbooks.org, herb@eskimo.com, Uncleish@aol.com, istituto@sfiic.org, vent@sirius.com, jeffconant@hotmail.com, jeff@detritus.com, poehlerjennifer@compuserve.com, jpenbert@capcollege.bc.ca, jen_hofer@uiowa.edu, three7@earthlink.net, gomes@igc.org, jbrook@ix.netcom.com, chimpowl@well.com, jocelyn@sfsu.edu, jkuszai@mail.gcccd.cc.ca.us, joseph@xinet.com, jraskin@ryanassociates.com, yshuayes@hotmail.com, joshs@jbnc.com, julie@kaya.com, intrsect@wenet.net, dbkk@sirius.com, ogilmore@concentric.net, liteplay@dnai.com, laura@spdbooks.org, moriarty@lanminds.com, info@poetshouse.org, linda.norton@ucop.edu, leni@adj.com, lisad@sfai.edu, lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu, catalan@netcom.com, 70550.654@compuserve.com, mbrito@ull.es, perloff@leland.stanford.edu, marty@spdbooks.org, marvin@pgw.com, maxpaul@sfsu.edu, mmblack@theworks.com, djmess@sunmoon.com, mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca, mfranco34@aol.com, mfriedman@haligmanlottner.com, mrareangel@aol.com, mprice@ncgate.newcollege.edu, walterblue@bigbridge.org, BC_Rock@hotmail.com, mbwolfe@worldnet.att.net, mwolf@sfbg.com, mitch.highfill@db.com, Moxley_Evans@compuserve.com, nelia@telis.org, nla_arts@sirius.com, normacole@aol.com, editors@twolines.com, ohill4@earthlink.net, pquill@sfai.edu, 103730.2033@compuserve.com, pvangel@earthlink.net, pbhoward@serendipitybooks.com, peter_gizzi@macmail.ucsc.edu, priley@dircon.co.uk, newlit@sfsu.edu, raghubir@haas.berkeley.edu, rgladman@sfaids.ucsf.edu, rchrd@eng.sun.com, naao@artswire.org, chrisko@sirius.com, tottels@hotmail.com, aerialedge@aol.com, rovasax@aol.com, sdas@hbs.edu, shacker@birdhouse.org, tpapress@dnai.com, center@sptraffic.org, scope@ucsd.edu, sratclif@mills.edu, rovadams@aol.com, steveanker@aol.com, sclay@interport.net, sfarmer@earthlink.net, clarkd@sfu.ca, skleeberk@aol.com, smilla@sirius.com, suzedmin@thegrid.net, tbrady@sdabcc.com, fuson@uclink4.berkeley.edu, toddbaron@earthlink.net, bookpub@netcom.com, th@wessexbooks.com, hsu@tlaloc.sfsu.edu, yedd@aol.com, angelica@cyborganic.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" we're passing this on . . . Save the Date and Pass the Word! The Stanford Humanities Center Poetry and Translation Workshop presents: WHEN THE MUSE IS MUSIC: JAZZ AND POETRY with Pulitzer-prize winning Poet YUSEF KOMUNYAKAA Poet and Scholar NATHANIEL MACKEY Jazz Saxophonist HAMIET BLUIETT **Reading-Performance** on Tuesday, February 29, at 7:30 p.m. Annenberg Auditorium (Cummings Art Building) Stanford University **Panel Discussion** on Wednesday, March 1, at 2:30 p.m. Stanford Humanities Center Annex (corner of Campus Drive and Alvarado Row) **Book Signing** on Wednesday, March 1, at 12 noon Stanford Bookstore All events are free and open to the public for further information contact: Meta DuEwa Jones metaduwa@leland.stanford.edu Adam B. Casdin casdin@leland.stanford.edu (650) 462-9234 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:35:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: laura roberts Subject: The APG Manifesto Addendum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii We forgot to mention: donations of women and firearms always appreciated. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 05:06:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lee ann brown Subject: NYC Poetic Events Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Three events I hope you consider coming to if you're in NYC area: NATHANIEL DORSKY Very sublime POETIC FILMS- TWO RARE NYC SHOWS! 1. Sat Feb 12th 2pm Whitney Museum 945 Madison Ave at 75th Films: Triste, Pneuma, 17 Reasons Why 2. Sunday Feb 13th 8pm Walter Reade Theater Lincoln Center 165 W 65th Street Films: Triste, Alaya, Variations Filmmaker will be present ______________________________________ Erotics & Dance / Movement Research 3. Lee Ann Brown (Love & Death Poetry Improv) Drew Gardner (Drums) & Daria Fain (Wild Shiva Dance) Monday Feb 14th Valentine's Day 8pm Judson Memorial Church Southside of Washington Square Park FREE Z Y X W V U T S R Q P O N M L K J I H G F E D C B A Lee Ann Brown Tender Buttons PO Box 13, Cooper Station New York, NY 10276 212.529.6154 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 09:22:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lisewell@WORLDNET.ATT.NET Subject: Laughing Hermit Reading 2/19 2pm Comments: To: Kyle Conner Comments: cc: abdalhayy@aol.com, aberrigan@excite.com, abirge@nimbus.ocis.temple.edu, agil@erols.com, allison_cobb@edf.org, ALPlurabel@aol.com, amorris1@swarthmore.edu, Amossin@aol.com, apr@libertynet.org, avraham@sas.upenn.edu, ayperry@aol.com, Babsubus@aol.com, baratier@megsinet.net, bcole@nimbus.ocis.temple.edu, bdowns@columbiabooks.com, Becker@law.vill.edu, bette343@hotmail.com, bjfoley@aol.com, BMasi@aol.com, bochner@prodigy.net, booglit@excite.com, BStrogatz@aol.com, cahnmann@dolphin.upenn.edu, chris@bluefly.com, Chrsmccrry@aol.com, coryjim@earthlink.net, Cschnei978@aol.com, daisyf1@juno.com, danedels@sas.upenn.edu, dburnham@sas.upenn.edu, dcpoetry@mailcity.com, dcypher1@bellatlantic.net, DennisLMo@aol.com, DROTHSCHILD@penguinputnam.com, dsilver@pptnet.com, dsimpson@NETAXS.com, ejfugate@yahoo.com, ekeenagh@astro.ocis.temple.edu, ENauen@aol.com, ErrataBlu@aol.com, esm@vm.temple.edu, Feadaniste@aol.com, fleda@odin.english.udel.edu, Forlano1@aol.com, FPR@history.upenn.edu, fuller@center.cbpp.org, gbiglier@nimbus.ocis.temple.edu, gmarder@hotmail.com, gnawyouremu@hotmail.com, goodwina@xoommail.com, HighwireGallery@aol.com, hstarr@dept.english.upenn.edu, hthomas@kutztown.edu, icepalace@mindspring.com, insekt@earthlink.net, ivy2@sas.upenn.edu, jeng1@earthlink.net, jennifer_coleman@edf.org, jimstone2@juno.com, jjacks02@astro.ocis.temple.edu, JKasdorf@mcis.messiah.edu, JKeita@aol.com, jlutt3@pipeline.com, jmasland@pobox.upenn.edu, JMURPH01@email.vill.edu, johnfattibene@juno.com, josman@astro.ocis.temple.edu, jschwart@thunder.ocis.temple.edu, jvitiell@nimbus.ocis.temple.edu, jwatkins@unix.temple.edu, kelly@dept.english.upenn.edu, kelly@COMPSTAT.WHARTON.upenn.edu, Kjvarrone@aol.com, kmcquain@ccp.cc.pa.us, kristing@pobox.upenn.edu, ksherin@dept.english.upenn.edu, kzeman@sas.upenn.edu, lcabri@dept.english.upenn.edu, lcary@dept.english.upenn.edu, leo@isc.upenn.edu, lgoldst@dept.english.upenn.edu, llisayau@hotmail.com, lorabloom@erols.com, lsoto@sas.upenn.edu, lstroffo@hornet.liunet.edu, marf@NETAXS.com, MargBarr@aol.com, matthart@english.upenn.edu, Matthew.McGoldrick@ibx.com, mbmc@op.net, melodyjoy2@hotmail.com, mgpiety@drexel.edu, mholley@brynmawr.edu, michaelmccool@hotmail.com, miyamorik@aol.com, mmagee@dept.english.upenn.edu, mnichol6@osf1.gmu.edu, mollyruss@juno.com, mopehaus@hotmail.com, MTArchitects@compuserve.com, mwbg@yahoo.com, mytilij@english.upenn.edu, nanders1@swarthmore.edu, nawi@citypaper.net, odonnell@siam.org, penwaves@mindspring.com, pla@sas.upenn.edu, poetry4peeps@hotmail.com, putnamc@washpost.com, QDEli@aol.com, rachelmc@sas.upenn.edu, rdupless@vm.temple.edu, rediguanas@erols.com, repohead@rattapallax.com, richardfrey@dca.net, robinh5@juno.com, ron.silliman@gte.net, sernak@juno.com, Sfrechie@aol.com, singinghorse@erols.com, stewart@dept.english.upenn.edu, subpoetics-l@hawaii.edu, susan.wheeler@nyu.edu, SusanLanders@yahoo.com, swalker@dept.english.upenn.edu, Ron.Swegman@mail.tju.edu, Tasha329@aol.com, tdevaney@brooklyn.cuny.edu, thorpe@sas.upenn.edu, tosmos@compuserve.com, travmar03@msn.com, twells4512@aol.com, upword@mindspring.com, v2139g@vm.temple.edu, vhanson@netbox.com, vmehl99@aol.com, wh@dept.english.upenn.edu, wvanwert@nimbus.ocis.temple.edu, wwhitman@libertynet.org, ywisher@hotmail.com, zurawski@astro.temple.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Laughing Hermit Reading Series presents: Poets JOSIE FOO and LISA SEWELL SATURDAY -- FEBRUARY 19 2 PM The Kelly Writers House wh@dept.english.upenn.edu 3805 Locust Walk 215-573-WRIT Philadelphia, PA 19104 http://www.english.upenn.edu/~wh ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 09:13:26 MST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Mansheim Subject: Lucifer Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I'm interested in the poetic treatment of Lucifer...Milton, Blake and lucille clifton for example. Any suggestions? Mark Mansheim U of AZ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:38:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Re: gender again In-Reply-To: <200002112357.PAA10730@lanshark.lanminds.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 3:57 PM -0800 2/11/00, Elizabeth Treadwell wrote: >The fact that a luminary like Susan Howe does not even want to hear >secondhand of what goes on on this list (a little bird told me) makes Kent >Johnson's theory (as spelled out in that recent issue of Skanky Possum) that >the exclusion of Henry Gould from this list marks "Language writing's >institutional denouement" seem, well, if not absurd, at least a very minor >point. Has my memory failed me or is it not the case that Henry Gould dropped off the list himself? As far as I remember (and I wasn't paying much attention) he was not kicked off or censored. After zillions of people begged both on the list and backchannel to the administration for Henry to not post so many messages each day, but to combine his messages, he left the list. There was no censorship of content here. It was a mass appeal by hundreds of people who felt bombarded and harassed by HG's excessive number of posts. I was never involved in any of the Henry stuff and I have no bad feelings against him, but this developing issue of his martyrdom is smoke without fire. What Susan Howe thinks of the list is Susan's business and shouldn't be taken as any reflection of the list. I think Charles, Joel Kuszai, and now Chris have done a wonderful, apparently thankless job here. And all three of them has been supportive of my own experiments into gender hysteria. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 14:03:55 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jill Stengel Subject: that pesky Shape of Time MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit karen mckevitt (hi again karen) says: > What troubles me now is the irony of assigning the words an order and space > on the page--it seems so static to have to proceed this way. i've made a couple of sculptural pieces to deal with, work with, against this static...not sure if they actually do, but i think they do...open fixed poems to new ideas, new vistas. one project: a poem in 4 voices, not necessarily speaking in a particular order, demanded to be moved into something more fluid, less time-dependent or one-after-the-next. it became...a mobile, with stanzas hanging in certain patterns to indicate placement on the page...but, by hanging, and by the structure as a whole (rather than positioning) being the main focus, the poem becomes much more free of the page-constraint and open to the reader's interaction with it, the poem, the structure, the little motions the wind makes as the reader moves around to read...freed from linear time, put into motion... the other, a cart or wagon w/boxes the reader/viewer has to open to see what's inside--the cart also has words on it, and the boxes must be removed fr the cart to see what the cart says. the boxes are numbered, but don't require sequential reading; they are varying heights, non-sequentially, to further disrupt the idea of order; and inside each box are visual delights, little art/art on a small scale, almost like a frozen moment, time capsule, small world, accompanied by a poem (on a transparency, across the inside top of the box). the cart has functioning wheels and a rope w/a handle, and can be pulled...say, perhaps into a new perspective... (this project was collaborative, the structural ideas and creation largely done by a sculptor friend of mine, jill koetke.) (the mobile, assistance from my andy hilliard, or i'd still be tangled up with fishing wire...) thought you might be interested. jill stengel ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 13:09:20 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Camille Martin Subject: email address of Steve Evans? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Could someone please backchannel the current email address of Steve Evans? Thanks! Camille Martin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 08:42:18 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Subject: Re: my censor addenda MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It may be that e-listers-- enjoying (or not enjoying) distribution of text messages to all members + archives -- may need to step cautiously into "live" conferencing on the net to supplement their communications with one another. It is possible to set up voice (and/or text) conferencing on Firetalk software (it's a free download) -- with various levels of constraint on entry & membership. I've recently tried Firetalk -- I dont love it, but it seems to work & might be useful as a supplement or alternative -- -- it might alleviate some of the concerns voiced by Elizabeth Treadwell, Karen Kelley & mIEKAL aND (tho a mixed men/women Forum would probably not make any difference to gender-balance) The Philadelphia Writers' House video on the net was interesting & enjoyable but, nevertheless had a built-in division between panellists & others. Participation from outside remained as : Questions directed to Panellists. Tony Green From: mIEKAL aND To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Tuesday, 15 February 2000 06:56 Subject: Re: my censor addenda >Elizabeth Treadwell wrote: > >> More censorious questions or why I generally lurk. >> Why does the discourse have to be so - to put it politely - >> academic? > >it is, doesn't have to be. insertions such as your are encouraging & may >encourage. > > >> Is >> this really the only way to be rigorous? > >or even, why must anyone maintain the cloak of rigor, why not talk or >conversation on its own, or perplexity >or the journalistic or the diaristic. > > >> Is it >> the nature of listservs to dull the senses? Are we to believe high >> seriousness to be the only argot that translates on email? > >this list is a virtual anomaly, sometimes I wonder when it will recover >a vital idenitity which is only now suggested. a real part of list >culture is the spontaneity of reply. if I happen to write late at >night, the late at night crew can kick in with a tag team discussion, >with its own tenor & its own storyline....the 9 to 5 listers, often >writing from work approach the discussion in a different way. when the >discussion are live, unmoderated their is a vitality to the community >that this list will not have as long as we have to wait sometimes 4-5 >days for messages to come thru. then my main reason to read becomes to >remember what was being talked about, rather than to live & discuss from >the comments of others that are that moment in my head. > >& list revigoration takes brave souls such as yourself to speak what on >her mind, & perhaps not being too concerned whether folks respond. Ive >grown accustomed to a response to maybe 5% of my posts, but then my >interests are marginalized by their visual/verbal gesturing. > > > > >> (I work at Kmart >> so I don't have to talk like that. A joke.) (A joke is offensive. -- >> My >> fake Gertrude Stein quote.) > >"the little verses seek their meal. . ." a real Orrick Johns quote. > > >mIEKAL > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 12:03:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Re: gender count (or whatever it was, can't remember) Comments: To: Brian Stefans In-Reply-To: <000b01b41e5e$7c8fbd40$2962f6d1@bway.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 1:14 AM -0500 1/1/90, Brian Stefans wrote: > >I don't quite know how to discuss gender in a productive manner myself, >ditto for race -- I prefer social experiments rather than discourse in that >instance. (I'm playing Yoko Ono in an upcoming Kevin Killian play in New >York, for example -- that'll be a trip, got to get my greatest hits CD out!) This was supposed to be a surprise, Brian! As part of Kevin's reading this Wednesday (Feb. 16) at the Threadwaxing Space, Brian,Eileen Myles, and others will help Kevin act out a scene from his play "The Vegetable Kingdom," a spoof of vegetarianism and diva rivalry. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:36:17 -0500 Reply-To: i_wellman@dwc.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: D Wellman Subject: Re: gender again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ...we parry one another's sublimations as though each judgment represented bankable property (Bourdieu). I oppose the reading that transposes itself into a critique to a participatory or performative reading. It is also curious, as Brian Stefans points out, that the reading that evokes response seems always someone else's judgment rather than their fret work, work with syllables and and other signifying bits. Gender seems to have an awful lot to do with this. The standard mode of modern poetry seems to be one of objectifying subjectivities. And it may be indelicate to talk about subjectivites, but claims to objectivity are always fair game. This objectifying mode resonates with many male gender traits: those sublimations that go to the furthest extremes to mark the structures that constitute territorial claims, to denial of the pleasures that alpha males take from chiding one another, to scopophilia (perhaps a perverse pleasure in witnessing another's pain). I do not write as I write either to contest notions of gender or to mock them. It's fairly obvious that most of us guys on the list would not want to advocate for silence as an inherent female trait (although we may in our individual perversities fetishize such silences -- surely we have produced enough theories on the topic), and so indeed here again I am myself attempting to speak for her .... as perhaps too many men before me have done. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:13:31 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: pete spence Subject: Re: Shape of Time Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >I'm surprised I didn't see more responses to this come thru my digest >version. I am obsessed with space/time--(I know all this is taking place in >4-D, but >>I'm >>collapsing space into 1-D for the sake of imagery). Does anyone perceive >>things that way? >> only 4-D!!!!!!,wheres my Klein bottle//pete spence ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:42:31 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "P.Standard Schaefer" Subject: another poetry conference in LA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Martha Ronk asked me to post this to the poetics list in case anyone is in the LA area and would like to attend. Anyone who attends, of course, is also allowed to be a respondent, but it looks funny the way it is stated below. I think, for example, I am allowed to be a respondent only because I agreed to post this to the list. There was a list of questions circulating that didn't seem to get into my last email from Martha. One of them asks people to discuss whether or not the quotidian is representable, visualizable, neccessarily imagistic, etc...another asks whether or not it can be used to undermine notions of the author as genius. Poetry Conference: The Quotidian From: Dennis Phillips and Martha Ronk The quotidian, in terms of writing, can be taken in at least two ways: the first, the more literal, is an engagement, in one way or another, with the items, textures, events, etc., of everyday life. The second, more oblique, is the way the items, textures, events, etc., of everyday life are synthesized into one's work. This is to invite you to a one-day conference on "the quotidian" in contemporary poetry to be held at Occidental College on Saturday, March 4 from 10-5. The panelists will be Norma Cole, Brenda Hillman and Michael Palmer from San Francisco, and Dennis Phillips, Martha Ronk, and Paul Vangelisti from Los Angeles. The respondents will be poets and critics Guy Bennett, Dan Fineman, Rob Kaufman, Standard Schaefer, and Diane Ward. All who attend will be encouraged to participate and address questions related to the quotidian and poetry. We have put the presentations of poetry and more discursive statements together in order to allow each to comment on the other more fully. The structure of the day: 9:00-9:30 coffee 9:30-12:30: introduction, reading, panel, discussion 12:30--2: lunch available in the student dining hall 2-4:30: reading, panel, discussion 4:30-6: informal reception The conference will take place in the Salisbury Room on the second floor of the Johnson Student Center (which also houses the bookstore and eating facilities). Occidental College is in Eagle Rock at 1600 Campus Road, Los Angeles 90041. Directions to the college and the buildings can be obtained by calling the switchboard: 323 259 2500 or by going to the Occidental WEB page (Oxy.edu). Parking is easily available in areas adjacent to the Student Center. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:09:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: a heart-shaped rose or my dinner with henry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" [Dear all, FYI, this is my reply to a long backchannel from Henry Gould, who read my posts on the archive (hey, it's a free country, eh). Anyhow, feel free to skip OBVIOUSLY. heart shaped roses to yall, ET] Dear Henry, First off, I hope you are having a good Valentine's Day. It's raining here, but pleasant. (I think we all tend to forget to be civil over email, sometimes -- this is not directed at you, just an explanation for why I don't get straight to the point.) I hadn't even realized all that was already back in Nov. 98. Time (and times) fly. I probably shouldn't have even mentioned Kent's article in my post, as it gets things all confused again. I simply wanted to bring up the issue of gender(ed?) censorship, which it seems to me is too ephemeral a substance to be borne by one tyrant (CB, CA, Joel K [hi Joel! rock on!] or whomever) or one scapegoat (you or whomever). Why do men talk more in class, at cocktail parties, etc? Women are colluding in this no doubt. And sometimes it's not true either (aka not happening). But I really believe on this list (which is hardly "mine") a culture has grown wherein men (and a few of them at that) dominate, many many fine female poets I know and know of have given up on the conversation, etc. That's where Susan Howe fits in to what I am trying to say. > >Third, I don't see what Susan Howe's opinions of your list have to do with >Kent's assertions. Kent was suggesting that I was singled out because >I was an ideological troublemaker. What they have to do with Kent's assertions is that there is a gender imbalance on the list which has to do with this hard-to-pin-down type of censorship, and frankly I find that very compelling and important and of concern; and I don't know why the "conflagration" turned out to be all about you. It's unfortunate in many ways. I have tried to bring my concerns up on the list before, including during the "conflagration", but somehow it's being written into cyberhistory as about one male voice being silenced rather than multiple female voices. And I don't think anyone should be silenced. [Women speaking at all in some spots is ideological troublemaking.] Well, that's about all I have the energy for. I hear only good things about you from folks who know you, and I wish you all the best. My regards, Elizabeth ___________________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell Double Lucy Books & Outlet Magazine http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:11:21 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: Fun for everyone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" found something fun: go to the page below and find out your wu-name. I am known as Violent Magician ; with my middle name, simply Jolly Contender. Gertrude Stein is Irate Leader. http://blazonry.com/scripting/wuname.php my sweetheart has a song called "Fun for everyone" which I believe is now up at stiffrichards.com a song i cowrote will be there soon and mentions "Bonne Bell" for those who were in jr high in 1980. love, et ___________________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell Double Lucy Books & Outlet Magazine http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 01:06:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: for clark coolidge MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - nothing whichjar whichre whichut which, nothing whichcow whichwhite which, nothing whichrses which-jar, whichre, nothing whichite, whichng which-cows. coming whichoing, which whichhe which you whiche which whichave whichs which reconcile whichelf whichall whichures, lie whichwith which whichs which drain whichelf whichl whiche, produce whichwithin you. there which whichthat whichoundless, fear which whichathway, whichng just which whichighest which, beneath whichcean whichms. it whichfaster whichthe which, higher whichany whichning, louder whichany whicher, it which whichgh which which which burns whichgh which, which which nothing whiche whichd whichod whicht, to whichnothing which whichthing. to whichoneself which whichnothing to whichoneself which whichnothing. ________________________________________& ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:54:02 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: Re: gender again In-Reply-To: <200002112357.PAA10730@lanshark.lanminds.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >The fact that a luminary like Susan Howe does not even want to hear >secondhand of what goes on on this list __so girls _dont_ just want to have fun?!? Another male projection, i guess....But seriously, folks, the List cd only benefit by having more luminaries shine their light upon it--I think they shd be encouraged to join up and play their part in these Cyberwars, the time will not come again. David ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:10:58 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "I. Schmidt" Subject: Re: 'cultural capital' and 'prestige' Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed what literary writing is for is not for anyone to say richard with all due respect your response itself seems more to choke off one more breath trip me up one more step i am disturbed by the hostility to 'what is called thinking?' on this list nowadays women write books as long as men's books, look at ursula k. leguin or joyce carol oates for godsake i don't think thinking out loud a lot or writing long posts or books is simply male maybe women don't feel invited to blabber on here the way men do but i doubt the men feel invited to blabber they just do it anyway ---------- Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 22:55:18 -0500 From: Richard Dillon Subject: Re: 'cultural capital' and 'prestige' Neither of these words imply in any way the capacity to inspire anyone anywhere to take one more breath or step which is what literary writing bottom line is - for. ---------- >From: Jim Andrews >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: 'cultural capital' and 'prestige' >Date: Fri, Feb 11, 2000, 3:39 AM > >How does the notion of 'cultural capital' differ from 'prestige'? > >Jim Andrews >Vispo ~ Langu(im)age >http://vispo.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:27:52 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Randy Prunty Subject: ebay poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit a recent search on ebay for 'poetry' turned up these goodies. [my comments in brackets] enjoy, randy prunty << poetry cards - Maple Leaf Collectibles Presents: DANTE ALIGHIERI TOBACCO CARD (1925) This original card was issued in England by John Player & Sons in 1925. It is card number 14 from a set of 50 cards entitled "Leaders of Men". The front of the card shows the name and a colour picture of DANTE ALIGHIERI, while the back of the card has the name, set name, card number, trade text and a biography. An example of a card back from the set is shown here. Note the card size by the ruler pictured. The card was given as a free premium and was inserted into a package of 10 cigarettes. This 75 year old card is in Excellent condition. [current bid is $5.95 (there are also cards for schiller, milton, and homer)] >> <> <<"THE FOREST OF LOVE: A LOVE STORY IN BLANK VERSE" with text and art by Jack Palance. ON THE SURFACE, THIS WORK CONTRASTS WITH THE SCREEN IMAGE OF PALANCE AS A TOUGH TALKING MAN'S MAN! BUT EVEN DURING PALANCE'S LONG SCREEN CAREER, THE UNDERTONE OF HIS PERFORMANCES REVEALED A MAN OF GREAT SENSITIVITY, PASSION AND CONFIDENCE. THIS BOOK ULTIMATELY CONFIRMS THESE CHARACTERISTICS AND ESTABLISHES PALANCE AS A FRESH VOICE OF MALE SENSUALITY!!! This epic love story takes us on an intimate and emotional ride through a love affair -- the love of a woman and the love of nature -- brilliantly inter-twining Palance's artwork and text in a journey filled with exhilaration, passion, ecstacy, disappointment, remorse, and ultimately rebirth. THIS IS PALANCE'S FIRST PUBLISHED WORK. This is a hard cover book with DJ in very good condition; copyright 1996; First Edition; with 88 pages. Contact seller by e-mail with any questions. Winning bidder pays shipping and handling of $2.00 (bookrate), with payment to be made within 10 days after close-of-auction notification. Book will be shipped immediately if paid by bank or postal money order. Personal checks take longer. [current bid for this one is $7] >> <> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:36:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: brandon and christina Subject: nOG GiN aN please take note of the following music/film event: Noggin and Ether Drag Friday, February 25, 8:00 p.m. @ Squeaky Wheel, 175 Elmwood Avenue $3 for students/members info: 8 8 6 - 1 9 5 7 Noggin [Bellingham Washington] and Ether Drag [Brooklyn New York] perform experimental time-based improvisation with tape loops, cello, theremin, violin, percussion, prepared electronics, 16 mm film and guitar. Noggin will investigate Tony Conrad's _The Flicker_ creating live soundtracks for four 16 mm projections and optical tracks. Ether Drag will investigate everything Steve Reich has yet to tackle. More thorough information regarding this event can be found in a feature article in the February 2000 edition of the graduate Quill. There will be a story in the Spectrum sometime this week. The event is sponsored by the Media Study Club, Media Study Dept., Graduate Student Association, English GSA, Hallwalls, & Squeaky Wheel. d eTHER dRAG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------A008D5B2871C238C5EF84604" --------------A008D5B2871C238C5EF84604 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit take note of the following music/film event: Noggin and Ether Drag Friday, February 25, 8:00 p.m. @ Squeaky Wheel, 175 Elmwood Avenue BUFFALO NEW YORK Noggin [Bellingham Washington] and Ether Drag [Brooklyn New York] perform experimental time-based improvisation with tape loops, cello, theremin, violin, percussion, prepared electronics, 16 mm film, disjointed [or double jointed] texts. Noggin will investigate Tony Conrad's _The Flicker_ creating live soundtracks for four 16 mm projections and optical tracks. Ether Drag will continue search ing for the perfect way to sing blindly of two or three lines in gravity's rainbow. both bands refrain from vocalization AND incor-porate various forms of media [video, film, digital stuff, words on paper] into complex visual sound scapes. discourses of. & not on. the phat repetition of. take note The event is sponsored by the UB Media Study Club, Media Study Dept., Graduate Student Association, English GSA, Hallwalls, & Squeaky Wheel. --------------A008D5B2871C238C5EF84604 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit take note
of the following
music/film event:

       Noggin and Ether Drag
       Friday, February 25, 8:00 p.m.
       @ Squeaky Wheel, 175 Elmwood Avenue
       BUFFALO  NEW YORK

           Noggin [Bellingham Washington] and Ether Drag [Brooklyn New York]
           perform experimental time-based improvisation with tape loops, cello,
           theremin, violin, percussion, prepared electronics, 16 mm film, disjointed
           [or double jointed] texts.

           Noggin will investigate Tony Conrad's _The Flicker_ creating live
           soundtracks for four 16 mm projections and optical tracks. Ether Drag
           will continue search  ing for the perfect way to sing blindly of two or
           three lines in gravity's rainbow. both bands refrain from vocalization
           AND incor-porate various forms of media [video, film, digital stuff,
           words on paper] into complex visual sound scapes. discourses of. &
           not on. the phat repetition of.

take note
 

             The event is sponsored by the UB Media Study Club, Media Study Dept.,
             Graduate Student Association, English GSA, Hallwalls, & Squeaky
             Wheel.

 

 
 
    --------------A008D5B2871C238C5EF84604-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:53:01 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: that pesky Shape of Time In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" from Jill Stengel: >i've made a couple of sculptural pieces to deal with, work with, against this >static...not sure if they actually do, but i think they do...open fixed poems >to new ideas, new vistas... I'm curious about how people --- the audience, so to speak --- actually perceive things like this. Do their linear habits override everything? How do people learn to break such habits? How can the work teach them? (and yes I know the answers depend on "which people?" which doesn't stop me from being curious) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Whoppers Whoppers Whoppers! Math, University of Kansas | memory fails Lawrence, KS 66045 | these are the days." 785-864-4630 | fax: 785-864-5255 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.math.ukans.edu/~roitman/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:51:14 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: 'cultural capital' and 'prestige' MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >How does the notion of 'cultural capital' differ from 'prestige'? > Neither of these words imply in any way > the capacity to inspire anyone anywhere > to take one more breath or step > > which is what literary writing bottom line is - for. Whether or not this is true, Richard, a good look at the way things go down in poetryland is useful in taking the next step. For a poet, anyway. I would rather understand the whole story than pretend it doesn't exist. Lots of poets sound like they're pushing a particular poetical commodity. In other words, they sound like salespeople. Perhaps rousing and eloquent salespeople, but salespeople all the same. And often they don't see that, they figure they're on about something else. How can you be honest when you don't know what you're doing? So I think that a good look into these things is useful. j ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:32:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathy Lou Schultz Subject: censorious? Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit There have been many accusations of "censorship" on this list -- specifically against the list moderators -- all of which I have found disingenuous. From having observed the "Henry Gould events" on this list I do not believe that Charles Bernstein or Joel Kuszai "censored" anyone, so I'm with Dodie on this one. If CB or JK contacted listees about the number of their posts, that does not constitute "censorship," and it was within their rights as list owners and moderators, and further, was for the benefit of the entire list community. I think people should be more careful about what kind of accusations they make, and be sure that there is ample evidence to support said accusation. Thanks, Kathy Lou ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Kathy Lou Schultz Editor & Publisher Lipstick Eleven/Duck Press http://www.duckpress.org 42 Clayton Street San Francisco, CA 94117-1110 ---------- >From: Dodie Bellamy >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: gender again >Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000, 10:38 AM > >Has my memory failed me or is it not the case that Henry Gould >dropped off the list himself? As far as I remember (and I wasn't >paying much attention) he was not kicked off or censored. After >zillions of people begged both on the list and backchannel to the >administration for Henry to not post so many messages each day, but >to combine his messages, he left the list. There was no censorship >of content here. It was a mass appeal by hundreds of people who felt >bombarded and harassed by HG's excessive number of posts. > >I was never involved in any of the Henry stuff and I have no bad >feelings against him, but this developing issue of his martyrdom is >smoke without fire. > >What Susan Howe thinks of the list is Susan's business and shouldn't >be taken as any reflection of the list. > >I think Charles, Joel Kuszai, and now Chris have done a wonderful, >apparently thankless job here. And all three of them has been >supportive of my own experiments into gender hysteria. > >Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 13:40:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: peter neufeld Subject: Email for Avery Burns MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii If anyone has it, I'd like it b/c. Peter Neufeld __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:30:53 -0500 Reply-To: dbuuck@sirius.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "dbuuck@sirius.com" Subject: irrigor'ilarity for E. Treadwell Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" There once was a langpo named Rosa Whose "identity" never came closer Than to fuck with Ms Stein As if from behind viz. Rose a is rose a is rose a. >>>More censorious questions or why I generally lurk. Why does the discourse have to be so - to put it politely - academic? Is this really the only way to be rigorous? What about the rigor of humor? David Hess posted a piece about a Gertrude Stein conference to this List some time ago in which he made his points with big tasty dollops of hilarity. Hoa Nguyen, who later printed the piece in _Skanky Possum_ (issue #2 i think) mentioned backchannel to me the profound silence with which this was met, listside. From my early days on the list, I also recall fondly Wendy Kramer's happy post on Lisa Robertson's _Debbie: An Epic_, in which she rendered both a scan of the scene at a reading Robertson gave in New York and her own reading of _Debbie_ with an enthuisasm at once intricate and flip, like a flower. Alas such pleasures are few and far between. Is it the nature of listservs to dull the senses? Are we to believe high seriousness to be the only argot that translates on email? (I work at Kmart so I don't have to talk like that. A joke.) (A joke is offensive. -- My fake Gertrude Stein quote.) sent with good wishes, Elizabeth ------------------------------------------------------------------- This message has been posted from Mail2Web http://www.mail2web.com/ Web Hosting for $9.95 per month! Visit: http://www.yourhosting.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:43:16 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: that pesky Shape of Time MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit yes, new ideas, new vistas.The experiences you describe are also available in the best web poetry pieces. tom bell Jill Stengel wrote: > > i've made a couple of sculptural pieces to deal with, work with, against this > static...not sure if they actually do, but i think they do...open fixed poems > to new ideas, new vistas. -- //\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\ OOOPSY \///\\\/\///\\\/ <><>,...,., WHOOPS J K JOVE BY HHH ZOOOOZ ZEUS'WRATHHTARW LLLL STOPG [ EMPTY ] SPACER index of online work at http://members.home.net/trbell essays: http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/criticism/gloom.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 02:45:26 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Walter K. Lew" Subject: Re: gender count (or whatever it was, can't remember) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 12:03:05 -0800 From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Re: gender count (or whatever it was, can't remember) >others will help Kevin >act out a scene from his play "The Vegetable Kingdom," a spoof of >vegetarianism and diva rivalry. *Yoko wants to know: But who's going to play Kevin and Dodie? Congratulations to bstefans on landing the role; it will probably bring out the worst in him. [Sorry, don't use smiley faces.] *The Toronto poet/playwright/actor Jean Yoon (has poems in _Premonitions_) is developing a theatrical piece on YO (it's authorized by Yoko herself, whatever that may mean and entail). Shd be very interesting. (Btw if there's a small press editor out there who likes the poetry, Jean's probably still looking for a publisher for her book ms.) / Walter Walter K. Lew 11811 Venice Blvd. #138 Los Angeles, CA 90066 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 02:46:15 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Walter K. Lew" Subject: Re: gender again Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:36:17 -0500 From: D Wellman Subject: Re: gender again The standard mode of modern poetry seems to be one of objectifying subjectivities. *I don't think this generalization holds up to much scrutiny. It's certainly not the standard mode in the modern poetry that I've been devoted to, in which the constant grafting and reconfiguration of subjectivity and revealing of processes of formulating the subject are a near-obsession. Is it bc I have a post-modernist perspective on this poetry? I don't think so. A more interesting question: is it bc much of this poetry is from East Asia (in my case, shorthand for metropolitan China, Japan, and Korea)? Again, no, but interesting all the same bc it is a shibboleth of much modern E. Asian literary criticism that (a) modern subjectivity was introduced as a result of Western influence [the translation and adaptation of romanticism, naturalism, romantic realism (e.g. Dostoevsky), symbolism, high modernism, futurism, expressionism, surrealism, fascism, etc. all within 40 years of each other] and (b) that the West was peculiarly "objectifying" as opposed to the more supposedly spiritual, subjectivity-oriented approaches of Asian aesthetics and ideology. In its more debased forms this dogma has resulted in two particularly deadening or treacherous schools of thought: (i) the assumption that Asian literature is always trying to CATCH UP TO THE WEST (corollary: China and Korea were trying to catch up to Japan) and (ii) nativist, sometimes fascist (e.g. Japan during the late 30's-1945), views that Asian cultures must RETURN TO their subjective and aesthetic basis, their "true feelings," although the ironies & contradictions abound once the argument proceeds (e.g., this spiritualism was supposedly due to the race's or ethnicity's material "blood," Heidegger and Kierkegaard were deep influences on some of these nativists, metropolitan nativists quickly realized they had no native culture to return to, it didn't stop nativists from aspiring to be objectifying imperialists, etc.). Literary critics like Karatani Kojin (_The Origins of Modern Japanese Literature_) have tried to upend this type of thinking, but it remains. In any case, one cannot help but agree that there are ways in which modernity's particular forms of objectification can be delineated and criticized (tens of thousands of pages have been/continue to be written on it), but to do so without consideration of modernity's constant instigation and displacement of/need for subjectivity is not very helpful. Foucault blah blah blah, but the early Marx also had much to say abt this and he phrased it in terms of the development of separated State (public, political) and Civic (private, egoistic) realms of society, mutually founded and deepening alienation, democracy thriving on the proliferation of self-seeking hucksters who do not aspire to revolution, etc. In such a situation, how cd much of modern poetry NOT work "against" (as in against the grain, rather than in total dichotomous oppostion to) the objectification of subjectivity? Its "release" of it both dissolves and sustains modernity. But not just another opium for (a small number of) the people? And it may be indelicate to talk about subjectivites, but claims to objectivity are always fair game. *But doesn't the subjectivity game also have its own constantly resorted-to "fair" moves? This objectifying mode resonates with many male gender traits: those sublimations that go to the furthest extremes to mark the structures that constitute territorial claims, to denial of the pleasures that alpha males take from chiding one another, to scopophilia (perhaps a perverse pleasure in witnessing another's pain). *I dunno--thazza pretty good beginning for a list of characteristics of the women (and queer men, since we're talking gender, not genitals here, or are we--alpha males??) I wish I'd never crossed paths w, some of whom make a living off of various poetry corpses, sometimes a very good living. I do not write as I write either to contest notions of gender or to mock them. *Nor to praise or bury them, etc. It's fairly obvious that most of us guys on the list would not want to advocate for silence as an inherent female trait *But WOULD advocate the set of male "traits" you give above? Or were you not implying that these are inherent? Sorry--maybe I ignored something relevant in the beginning of this thread. (although we may in our individual perversities fetishize such silences -- surely we have produced enough theories on the topic), and so indeed here again I am myself attempting to speak for her .... as perhaps too many men before me have done. *Sorry to repeat the footnotes of countless cultural studies articles, but: Can the subaltern speak? Gayatri Spivak's probing of this question is complex, copiously cited, but still as needed and relevant here as ever. Walter K. Lew 11811 Venice Blvd. #138 Los Angeles, CA 90066 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:29:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Arielle C. Greenberg" Subject: the "rigor of humor" In-Reply-To: <200002112318.PAA07029@lanshark.lanminds.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I agree that Elizabeth's recent postings have been refreshing. I further agree, am very interested in, the idea that humor, levity, joy can be intellectual and even political work. And that we should be able to find ways to write about poetics that are thoughtful but not alienating. (This is not to say I think people should stop posting the kinds of things they post -- I enjoy the really difficult postings sometimes. I just think an alternative would be also, simultaneously, nice.) And I'm really wondering about how this relates, if it does, to the idea of women posting not as much to the list. I'm currently working on an essay about Barbara Guest which looks at her use of humor as a feminist strategy. I wonder if a percieved lack of humor in some of the postings ends up making people feel excluded rather than included. I don't know...I'm just wondering. I know I always appreciate a sense of warmth, of humor, in posts...esp Alan Sondheim's poems, in Elizabeth's posts, in the tone of Maria Damon's posts. I think maybe we should just keep thinking about how to expand the ways we write about the things we write about on this list. Arielle **************************************************************************** "I thought numerous gorgeous sadists would write me plaintive appeals, but time has gone by me. They know where to get better looking boots than I describe." -- Ray Johnson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 18:52:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: schoolhouse rock or gender buttons (pardonne) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" nice one, D. Wellman! Dodie et al, am i nuts or was i clear that i wasn't blaming Charles, Joel or Chris for that which i complain of? i admit tho, yes, i was using Susan Howe as an icon rather than a person when hinting at the relevance of what she might think of the list. Lady Smart of Older than Me I might have called her instead? and to Brian K. Stef, you are nice: Dear Yoko, I was joshing about with Sally and Frieda that we ought to start a mag called Whatever....get it? I know you do!....the pet-post-de-child of However....and a standing ovation to Kathleen Fraser (Lady Smart of Older than Me) and the others is includified in my intent. K*I*T* Hello Kitty (or to you dear Yoko, simply Hello) "Enjoy Life, Eat Out More Often" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 00:55:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jena Osman Subject: documentary poem list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks to everybody who sent in responses to my query about documentary poems. A few of you asked to see the final list, so I'm posting it below. I think it's an interesting mix. Jena _____________ Charles Bernstein, "Standing Target," Sentences my father used Daniel Bouchard, "Wrackline" Kamau Brathwaite, Trench Town Rock David Bromige, My Poetry Ernesto Cardenal, Zero Hour Catalina Cariaga, Cultural Evidence Anne Carson Celan Teresa Hak Kyung Cha, Dictee Tom Clark, Empire of Skin Beverly Dahlen, A Reading Mahmoud Darwish's poem on Beirut Dorn's *Recollections of Gran Apacheria*, "Captain Jack's Chaps/or Houston, MLA," Abhorrences Maggie Dubris, WillieWorld Ginsberg's travel poems, Witchita Vortex Sutra John Giorno's mirror repetition poems of the 60s and 70s Randolph Healy, _Arbor Vitae_ Susan Howe's essay on Vertov and Marker, Nonconformis's Memorial, Articulations of Sound Forms in Time. Hank Lazer, "Law Poems" Dorothy Livesay, Let My People Go Paul Metcalf, "Firebird," "Genoa," "Middle Passage," and "Apalache" Malena Morling, _Ocean Avenue_ Olson: chunks of the Maximus Poems Hilton Obenzinger, New York on Fire Michael Ondaatje's "Billy the Kid" Simon Ortiz, From Sand Creek Wang Ping, Of Flesh and Spirit Charles Reznikoff, Testimony Adrienne Rich, Atlas of a Difficult World Muriel Rukeyser, Book of the Dead Ed Sanders' 1968; *Investigative Poetics*, Chekhov Leslie Scalapino, Front Matter Dead Souls kathy lou schultz's _genealogy_ Peter Dale Scott, Minding the Darkness, _Coming to Jakarta_ Red Slider, verse biography of Isamu Noguchi Gustaf Sobin, Towards the Blanched Alphabets, Luminous Debris Barrett Watten, Bad History Williams' *Paterson* Zukofsky, A ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 21:58:53 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Katie Degentesh Subject: 6,500 Magazine Will Free 6,500 Pigeons Comments: To: katie@degentesh.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Group Reading and Ornithological Show Celebrate Another Issue of Poetry, Fiction, etc. When: Thursday, February 24, 2000, at 7:30pm. Where: New College, Blue Books, 766 Valencia How Much: $5, or $10 if you buy the magazine In honor of the launch of its Spring, 2000 issue, 6,500, a magazine of poetry, fiction, and drawings of men and women in sweatshirts, will release 6,500 pigeons into the auditorium of New College on Thursday, February 24th. The event is believed to be the largest-ever release of birds into an enclosed space (10,000 doves were to be set free at the coronation of King Edward VIII, but the King abdicated before the ceremony could be held, and his successor, George VI, a confirmed bird-hater, had the doves shipped to the North of England, where they eventually played a minor but dramatic role in the Battle of Britain). 6,500 editor Katie Degentesh explains: "Pigeons and poetry are two images of the same thing: the desire to move freely in three dimensions while living in a place with lots of people. Pigeons are the poets of the air." The birds will swoop, coo, and eat pinto beans as poets Sarah Anne Cox, Katie Degentesh, Abie Hadjitarkhani, Alex Green, Jan Richman, Tarin Towers and Elizabeth Treadwell read from their recent work. Writer Paul LaFarge will provide fictional accompaniment through a microphone. After the reading, copies of the magazine will be made available for the modest price of $8, and well-wishers will enjoy the sight of pigeon wrangler John Ratliffe removing the birds from the ceiling with a non-toxic solvent of his own invention. The magazine will then be distributed to fine bookstores nationwide, and the pigeons will be set free in Oakland, as their former San Francisco roosts are converted into live/work spaces for parakeets. For more information on 6,500, e-mail 6500@paraffin.org or degentesh@earthlink.net; for information on pigeons and the urban ecology call San Francisco Animal Care & Control at (415) 554-6364. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:06:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Los desaparecidos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Brian Stefans said: >As for censorship, I know for a fact that several emails have >simply not made it due to technological problems the EPC has >been having (notice the new icons?) -- David Bromige, for instance >(as he mentioned in one of his more recent posts), lost a few and >was feeling orphaned and lonely, and I lost a few myself (my best >writing!). Maintaining a server can be quite hellish, I know from >experience, and we often don't appreciate the effort these guys >make to keep the thing alive. So at least, on occasion, it's not >censorship, though I felt that's what was happening to me. (I >don't know what Kent has to say, I don't have the issue.) --------------------------------- Brian and any interested others: Those of you who don't have the Skanky Possum issue with the "Buffalo ' 99" article can find it at http://webdelsol.com/FLASHPOINT It's my understanding that one of the FlashPoint editors tried to post a notice of the article's availability a couple of weeks ago. Perhaps this notice never appeared for the reasons you mention above. In any case, I think maybe Dodie Bellamy's confusion about certain issues of principle involved in le affaire Henri would be lessened if she had the chance to read the piece-- or at least read it again and reflect with more care on the sequence and meaning of events involved. By the way, and since I interviewed him in part regarding it, Henry Gould's book Stubborn Grew is recently out from Spuyten Duyvil. It's quite extraordinary. Kent ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:18:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: death and commericals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII it's an ancient truism, that advertisers use sex to sell..more or less everything; (and of course clever intellectuals have also been saying for the last couple of decades, that while our culutre has become more open about sex than it used to be, the one thing it is considered "obscene" and unallowable to talk about, is death...); so now some advertising firm has hit on what must (in some ways) be the first truely original idea of the new millenium: advertising that explioits, not sex but death just what the hell do the people on death row SAY in these ads, i wonder? &&&&&&&&&&&& HOFFMAN ESTATES, Ill., Feb 17 (Reuters) - Sears, Roebuck and Co. , the second largest U.S. retailer, said it would stop sales of Benetton USA apparel and remove the products from its stores. Benetton, through its United Colors of Benetton stores, recently introduced an advertising campaign called "We, on Death Row" that features interviews with convicted killers. Sears said on Wednesday it objected strongly to the advertising as soon as it became aware of the campaign, and it began reviewing its legal options regarding its contract with Benetton. Missouri's attorney general has sued Benetton for alleged fraudulent misrepresentation in gaining access to four inmates in its state prison, and Britain's non-broadcast advertising watchdog has said it would investigate complaints about the campaign. Earlier this week, Benetton defended the controversial campaign, insisting that its aim the to foster debate, not to boost sales. The merchandise is designed by Benetton, a unit of Milan-based Benetton Group SpA , and manufactured by a third party. Benetton USA merchandise has been carried in 400 Sears stores since last autumn. Sears, with annual revenue of $41 billion, operates more than 850 full-line department stores and 2,100 specialized retail stores and offers some merchandise online. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:36:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Readme #2 is finally complete MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This came to the administrative account. - T.S. --On Thursday, February 17, 2000, 2:04 PM -0500 "Gary Sullivan" wrote: R e a d m e http://www.jps.net/nada Additions: * "Slam Diary" by David Hess, Interview with Wendy Kramer, and a long excerpt from Tod Thilleman's _A World of Nothing But Nations_ * Many new 20th/21st century non-mainstream author links (there are now more than 700) * A new "search" feature Issue #2 / I N T E R V I E W S * R E V I E W S * E S S A Y S / Winter 2000 E d i t e d b y G a r y S u l l i v a n I n t e r v i e w s Phoebe Gloeckner / Adeena Karasick / Wendy Kramer Hoa Nguyen / Laurie Price / Rod Smith Scott Stark / Eileen Tabios / Tod Thilleman E s s a y s Leny Strobel on Eileen Tabios / David Hess Slam Diary Extra P o e t r y Carol Mirakove from WALL / Hoa Nguyen Six Poems Laurie Price Under the Sign of the House Adeena Karasick Mehaneh Yehuda II Tod Thilleman from A World of Nothing But Nations R e v i e w s Catherine Daly on Lee Ann Brown and Jeff Clark Nada Gordon on Drew Gardner David Kirschenbaum on Aaron Kiely Joseph Safdie on Rachel Loden )ohn Lowther and Randy Prunty on Brian Lucas Tom Devaney on Sharon Mesmer Ramez Qureshi on Armand Schwerner Henry Gould on Tod Thilleman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 15:59:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dickison Subject: ** Edward Dorn Memorial Tribute ** Thurs Feb 17 ** Comments: To: Tina Rotenberg Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ** This Week in the Big Church Room ** Franklin & Geary ** San Francisco ** THE POETRY CENTER & AMERICAN POETRY ARCHIVES Presents A memorial tribute to EDWARD DORN Thursday, February 17, 7:30 pm, free @ The Unitarian Center, 1187 Franklin (at Geary) San Francisco With special guests GORDON BROTHERSTON, BOB CALLAHAN, TOM CLARK, STEPHEN EMERSON, JOANNE KYGER, DUNCAN McNAUGHTON, and TOM RAWORTH. EDWARD DORN, who died on the 10th of this past December at his home in Denver, will be remembered by a gathering of friends this evening in San =46rancisco. Born in 1929 in Eastern Illinois, Mr. Dorn attended Black Mountain College during the 1950s and would come to prominence with the publication of several remarkable early poems in Donald Allen's renowned anthology The New American Poetry. His many books published over four decades in the US and the UK include The Collected Poems 1956-1974 (Four Seasons, Bolinas, 1975), the novel The Rites of Passage (Frontier Press, Buffalo, 1965), later issued as By the Sound, the long dramatic narrative poem Gunslinger, issued serially, and eventually collected in 1975 (Berkeley, Wingbow Press), Recollections of Gran Apacheria (Turtle Island, San Francisco, 1974), and several volumes of translations from Spanish, Portuguese, and Native American languages, done with Gordon Brotherston, and recently collected in the volume The Sun Unwound: Original Texts from Occupied America (North Atlantic Books, Berkeley, 1999). ". . . The mission bells are ringing in Kansas. Have you left something out. Negative, says my Gunslinger, no _thing_ is omitted." =3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Steve Dickison, Director The Poetry Center & American Poetry Archives ~ San Francisco State Univers= ity 1600 Holloway Avenue ~ San Francisco CA 94132 ~ 415-338-3401 ~ ~ ~ L=E2 taltazim h=E2latan, wal=E2kin durn b=EE-llay=E2ly kam=E2 tad=FBwru Don't cling to one state turn with the Nights, as they turn ~Maq=E2mat al-Hamadh=E2ni (tenth century; tr Stefania Pandolfo) ~ ~ ~ Bring all the art and science of the world, and baffle and humble it with one spear of grass. ~Walt Whitman's notebook ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:43:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: POETICS: approval required (743B9606) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I had to reformat this message. Please remember that HTML-formated text should not be sent to the poetics list. - TS --On Thursday, February 17, 2000, 4:59 PM -0500 "L-Soft list server at University at Buffalo (1.8d)" wrote: This message was originally submitted by kmcquain@CCP.CC.PA.US to the POETICS list at LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU. You can approve it using the "OK" mechanism, ignore it, or repost an edited copy. The message will expire = automatically and you do not need to do anything if you just want to discard it. Please = refer to the list owner's guide if you are not familiar with the "OK" mechanism; these instructions are being kept purposefully short for your = convenience in processing large numbers of messages. ----------------- Original message (ID=3D743B9606) (635 lines) ------------------ Received: (qmail 11075 invoked from network); 17 Feb 2000 21:58:58 -0000 Received: from mail1.ccp.cc.pa.us (207.103.47.3) by listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 17 Feb 2000 21:58:58 -0000 Received: from ccp.cc.pa.us ([207.103.177.129]) by mail1.ccp.cc.pa.us (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with ESMTP id AAA245; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 17:07:37 -0500 Message-ID: <38AC95A8.EE981FF4@ccp.cc.pa.us> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 16:43:20 -0800 From: kmcquain@ccp.cc.pa.us (McQuain, Kelly) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lisewell@worldnet.att.net CC: Kyle Conner , abdalhayy@aol.com, aberrigan@excite.com, abirge@nimbus.ocis.temple.edu, agil@erols.com, allison_cobb@edf.org, ALPlurabel@aol.com, amorris1@swarthmore.edu, Amossin@aol.com, apr@libertynet.org, avraham@sas.upenn.edu, ayperry@aol.com, Babsubus@aol.com, baratier@megsinet.net, bcole@nimbus.ocis.temple.edu, bdowns@columbiabooks.com, Becker@law.vill.edu, bette343@hotmail.com, bjfoley@aol.com, BMasi@aol.com, bochner@prodigy.net, booglit@excite.com, BStrogatz@aol.com, cahnmann@dolphin.upenn.edu, chris@bluefly.com, Chrsmccrry@aol.com, coryjim@earthlink.net, Cschnei978@aol.com, daisyf1@juno.com, danedels@sas.upenn.edu, dburnham@sas.upenn.edu, dcpoetry@mailcity.com, dcypher1@bellatlantic.net, DennisLMo@aol.com, DROTHSCHILD@penguinputnam.com, dsilver@pptnet.com, dsimpson@NETAXS.com, ejfugate@yahoo.com, ekeenagh@astro.ocis.temple.edu, ENauen@aol.com, ErrataBlu@aol.com, esm@vm.temple.edu, Feadaniste@aol.com, fleda@odin.english.udel.edu, Forlano1@aol.com, FPR@history.upenn.edu, fuller@center.cbpp.org, gbiglier@nimbus.ocis.temple.edu, gmarder@hotmail.com, gnawyouremu@hotmail.com, goodwina@xoommail.com, HighwireGallery@aol.com, hstarr@dept.english.upenn.edu, hthomas@kutztown.edu, icepalace@mindspring.com, insekt@earthlink.net, ivy2@sas.upenn.edu, jeng1@earthlink.net, jennifer_coleman@edf.org, jimstone2@juno.com, jjacks02@astro.ocis.temple.edu, JKasdorf@mcis.messiah.edu, JKeita@aol.com, jlutt3@pipeline.com, jmasland@pobox.upenn.edu, JMURPH01@email.vill.edu, johnfattibene@juno.com, josman@astro.ocis.temple.edu, jschwart@thunder.ocis.temple.edu, jvitiell@nimbus.ocis.temple.edu, jwatkins@unix.temple.edu, kelly@dept.english.upenn.edu, kelly@COMPSTAT.WHARTON.upenn.edu, Kjvarrone@aol.com, kristing@pobox.upenn.edu, ksherin@dept.english.upenn.edu, kzeman@sas.upenn.edu, lcabri@dept.english.upenn.edu, lcary@dept.english.upenn.edu, leo@isc.upenn.edu, lgoldst@dept.english.upenn.edu, llisayau@hotmail.com, lorabloom@erols.com, lsoto@sas.upenn.edu, lstroffo@hornet.liunet.edu, marf@NETAXS.com, "MargBarr@aol.com" , matthart@english.upenn.edu, Matthew.McGoldrick@ibx.com, mbmc@op.net, melodyjoy2@hotmail.com, mgpiety@drexel.edu, mholley@brynmawr.edu, michaelmccool@hotmail.com, miyamorik@aol.com, mmagee@dept.english.upenn.edu, mnichol6@osf1.gmu.edu, mollyruss@juno.com, mopehaus@hotmail.com, MTArchitects@compuserve.com, mwbg@yahoo.com, mytilij@english.upenn.edu, nanders1@swarthmore.edu, nawi@citypaper.net, odonnell@siam.org, penwaves@mindspring.com, pla@sas.upenn.edu, POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU, poetry4peeps@hotmail.com, putnamc@washpost.com, QDEli@aol.com, rachelmc@sas.upenn.edu, rdupless@vm.temple.edu, rediguanas@erols.com, repohead@rattapallax.com, richardfrey@dca.net, robinh5@juno.com, "ron.silliman@gte.net" , sernak@juno.com, Sfrechie@aol.com, singinghorse@erols.com, stewart@dept.english.upenn.edu, subpoetics-l@hawaii.edu, susan.wheeler@nyu.edu, SusanLanders@yahoo.com, swalker@dept.english.upenn.edu, Ron.Swegman@mail.tju.edu, Tasha329@aol.com, tdevaney@brooklyn.cuny.edu, thorpe@sas.upenn.edu, tosmos@compuserve.com, travmar03@msn.com, twells4512@aol.com, upword@mindspring.com, v2139g@vm.temple.edu, vhanson@netbox.com, vmehl99@aol.com, wh@dept.english.upenn.edu, wvanwert@nimbus.ocis.temple.edu, wwhitman@libertynet.org, ywisher@hotmail.com, zurawski@astro.temple.edu Subject: Men on Men reading References: <38A6BE1D.57F6@worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=3D"------------B8707C8E2212EAB2FFC8C943" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B8707C8E2212EAB2FFC8C943 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=3D"------------FA89B228C34CF0AE9070E86C" --------------FA89B228C34CF0AE9070E86C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Celebrate the publication of Men On Men 2000 At Borders Books 18th and Walnut Streets, Center City Philadelphia Thursday, March 2, 2000 at 7:30 PM Contributors to Men On Men 2000 will read from their work and sign copies = of the collection. Readers Include: Alexander Chee's short fiction and narrative essays have appeared in in the anthologies = Boys Like Us and His 3 and in Big, The James White Review, Out, and LIT. He is = a 1999 recipient of a Michener/Copernicus Fellowship for distinguished fiction and lives in Brooklyn. Kelly McQuain is the first writer to win The Philadelphia City Paper Writing Award in = both categories -- Poetry and Fiction. His stories have appeared in The Philadelphia Inquirer Magazine, The James White Review, and several anthologies, including Obsessed, Best American Erotica 1999 and Men On Men 2000. He is a contributing editor for Art & Understanding magazine and The Harrington Gay Men's Fiction Quarterly. He can be reached at kmcquain@ccp.cc.pa.us Bruce Morrow is the co-editor of SHADE: An anthology by Gay Men of African Descent. = His work has appeared in The New York Times, Callaloo, and the anthologies = Speak My Name and Ancestral House: The Black Short Story in the Americas and Europe. He has just completed a novel. Michael Villane is an actor and writer currently residing in New York City. He recently completed his first novel, My Life as a Ciccone Youth, and is currently working on a stage play based on "the color of rain". Men on Men 2000 is the first time Michael has been professionally published. Book Description Rarely has . . . a series [been] so consistently strong. Men on Men has regularly yielded a trove of well-wrought gay-themed short fiction."-Publishers Weekly Now spanning eight volumes and two decades, the Men on Men series = continues to showcase the remarkable talent of gay literary writers. These venerable collections of short stories have become a gay literary institution, launching the careers of several, now luminary, writers-including Joe Keenan, Christopher Bram, Dale Peck, and David Leavitt. True to its tradition, Men on Men 2000 brings bright new literary talent together with established writers-such as Edmund White and Brian Bouldrey-to offer a poignant collection of gay fiction that is provocative and illuminating at every turn. This diverse group of voices etches an indelible portrait of = gay life at the dawn of the twenty-first century, addressing issues such as identity and gender stereotypes, the power of love, the lingering shadow = of AIDS, and the new adventure of fatherhood. "Captures the full spectrum of gay life in America today . . United by its quality rather than its queerness."-Genre >From Kirkus Reviews Men on Men is, as its editors point out, ``the longest running series in = gay literature.'' Its longevity may in part be explained by the high standard the annual volumes have maintained; its persistence also has something to = do with the way that the anthologies have skillfully reflected the emergence = of new themes in gay literature. Among those on display this year is a new emphasis on the experience of homosexuality among working-class = adolescents and young men, represented in particularly strong tales like Kelly McQuain's "Erasing Sonny" and Bill Gordon's ``Home.'' Another intriguing trend is the attention gay writers are paying to the ways in which popular culture shapes how young people come to terms with their sexuality, = explored in the moving ``Scarecrow,'' by Tom House, and in the unsettling ``Boulevard,'' by Jim Grimsley, among others. Of course, other themes are persistent: Richard McCann's ``The Universe, Concealed'' is a profoundly moving meditation on AIDS and the gay community, and David Vernon's ``Arrival'' is a deft study of the way in which two old friends try to = avoid dealing with their knowledge of mortality. Another first-rate collection, impressively varied and strong: an excellent road-map to themes and voices in gay literature. Copyright =A91999, Kirkus Associates, LP. All rights reserved. ****** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 00:34:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: NIKUKO: VIDEO AT MILLENNIUM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII (apologise for cross-posting) VIDEO SCREENING AT MILLENNIUM: Please Come! Alan Sondheim, Azure Carter, Foofwa d'Imobilite February 26th, 8 PM, Saturday - 66 East 4th Street, NYC Millennium Film Workshop Inc. NIKUKO NIKUKO, video, VHS from digital/hi8: Nikuko, the famous Russian ballet dancer, pirouettes for Doctor Leopold Konninger. These and other avatars from the Internet play out stuctures of language, body/movement, and desire. A sourceless hunger pervades the work (which may be one work or many), created half in, half out, of cyberspace. We are all lost ghosts, discovering and abandoning language. Dance stutters or shudders among bodies. Pirouetting continues obsessively. All of us walk out of the tape, in one or another way, the beautiful styles of the day. Foofwa d'Imobilite was a member of the Merce Cunningham Dance Company for 7 years. He has been performing his multimedia work (dance, text and video) in New York and Europe. Azure Carter is currently working in video in New York. Alan Sondheim works online, in multimedia, and text/sound/ video. Thanks to the Experimental Television Center in New York for a 1999 resi- dency; this work would not have been possible without it. _________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:52:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: POETICS: approval required (F10064E5) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message was reformatted since it contained HTML-formated text. - TS --On Friday, February 18, 2000, 1:04 AM -0500 "L-Soft list server at University at Buffalo (1.8d)" wrote: This message was originally submitted by levitsk@ATTGLOBAL.NET to the POETICS list at LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU. You can approve it using the "OK" mechanism, ignore it, or repost an edited copy. The message will expire automatically and you do not need to do anything if you just want to discard it. Please refer to the list owner's guide if you are not familiar with the "OK" mechanism; these instructions are being kept purposefully short for your convenience in processing large numbers of messages. ----------------- Original message (ID=F10064E5) (122 lines) ------------------ Received: (qmail 28156 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2000 06:04:11 -0000 Received: from out5.prserv.net (HELO prserv.net) (32.97.166.35) by listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 18 Feb 2000 06:04:11 -0000 Received: from herbert ([129.37.113.70]) by prserv.net (out5) with SMTP id <2000021806040324300iei4ke>; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 06:04:03 +0000 Message-ID: <00c901bf79d7$57e331e0$46712581@herbert> From: To: Subject: Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 01:13:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C6_01BF79AD.6B5997C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C6_01BF79AD.6B5997C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ENJOY BELLADONNA* 2000 All Readings Begin 7:00 P.M. with 15 minute Open *** Friday, Feb. 25=20 Erica Hunt/Wendy Kramer at Bluestockings Women's Bookstore 172 Allen Street between Rivington and Stanton on the Lower East Side of Manhattan Contact: (212)777-6028 for more information plan ahead for future readings: Thursday, March 23=20 Maureen Owen/Betsy Fagin * Thursday, April 29=20 Marilyn Hacker Yvette Christianse kari edwards ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:56:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: POETICS: approval required (5D200F71) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As it contained poetics listserv-incompatible HTML-formated text, this message was reformated. - TS --On Friday, February 18, 2000, 1:05 AM -0500 "L-Soft list server at University at Buffalo (1.8d)" wrote: This message was originally submitted by levitsk@ATTGLOBAL.NET to the POETICS list at LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU. You can approve it using the "OK" mechanism, ignore it, or repost an edited copy. The message will expire automatically and you do not need to do anything if you just want to discard it. Please refer to the list owner's guide if you are not familiar with the "OK" mechanism; these instructions are being kept purposefully short for your convenience in processing large numbers of messages. ----------------- Original message (ID=5D200F71) (122 lines) ------------------ Received: (qmail 28245 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2000 06:05:25 -0000 Received: from out5.prserv.net (HELO prserv.net) (32.97.166.35) by listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 18 Feb 2000 06:05:25 -0000 Received: from herbert ([129.37.113.70]) by prserv.net (out5) with SMTP id <2000021806051524302ilq0re>; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 06:05:15 +0000 Message-ID: <00d101bf79d7$82d6ada0$46712581@herbert> From: To: Subject: oops BELLADONNA--please come Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 01:15:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00CE_01BF79AD.985566A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00CE_01BF79AD.985566A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ENJOY BELLADONNA* 2000 All Readings Begin 7:00 P.M. with 15 minute Open *** Friday, Feb. 25=20 Erica Hunt/Wendy Kramer at Bluestockings Women's Bookstore 172 Allen Street between Rivington and Stanton on the Lower East Side of Manhattan Contact: (212)777-6028 for more information plan ahead for future readings: Thursday, March 23=20 Maureen Owen/Betsy Fagin * Thursday, April 29=20 Marilyn Hacker Yvette Christianse kari edwards ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 18:39:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carol Hamshaw Subject: [Fwd: Japan writers] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carol Hamshaw wrote: > Hi > > Please pass this along to anyone you know that might have suggestions. > > I am looking for the names, and contact info if possible, of avant-garde > writers living in Japan. > > You can send suggestions to > > mailto: tcr@capcollege.bc.ca > > or phone: 604-984-1712 > fax: 604-990-7837 > mail: > The Capilano Review > 2055 Purcell Way > North Vancouver, BC V7J 3H5 > > Thanks muchly, > > Carol L. Hamshaw > Managing Editor > The Capilano Review > 604-984-1712 > > http://www.capcollege.bc.ca/dept/TCR > > For submission guidelines, please see > > http://www.capcollege.bc.ca/dept/TCR/submit.html -- Carol L. Hamshaw Administrator Edgewise ElectroLit Centre http://www.edgewisecafe.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 06:39:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Kelley Subject: Re: death and commericals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't think people *say* anything in the ads. Usually they are just visual images. Benetton actually started the "death advertising" a good few years back with an image of a man dying of AIDS. Cynical as the use of deathrow inmates for advertising may be--maybe it's a good thing to humanize that whole situation. I don't imagine Sears is pulling the ads 'cause they feel them to be in poor taste, but because they don't want their buyers (presumably pro-death penalty, since I guess a majority of Americans are) to feel uncomfortable or guilty. And I wonder whether the Benetton ads represent the racial disparity of death row?? ---------- > From: Mark Prejsnar > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: death and commericals > Date: Thursday, February 17, 2000 7:18 AM > > > > it's an ancient truism, that advertisers use sex to sell..more or less > everything; (and of course clever intellectuals have also been saying for > the last couple of decades, that while our culutre has become more open > about sex than it used to be, the one thing it is considered "obscene" and > unallowable to talk about, is death...); > > so now some advertising firm has hit on what must (in some ways) be the > first truely original idea of the new millenium: advertising that > explioits, not sex but death > > just what the hell do the people on death row SAY in these ads, i wonder? > > &&&&&&&&&&&& > > > HOFFMAN ESTATES, Ill., Feb 17 > (Reuters) - Sears, Roebuck and Co. , the second > largest U.S. retailer, said it would stop sales of Benetton USA apparel > and remove the products from its stores. Benetton, through its United > Colors of Benetton stores, recently introduced an advertising campaign > called "We, on Death Row" that features interviews with convicted killers. > Sears said on Wednesday it objected strongly to the advertising as soon as > it became aware of the campaign, and it began reviewing its legal options > regarding its contract with Benetton. Missouri's attorney general has sued > Benetton for alleged fraudulent misrepresentation in gaining access to > four inmates in its state prison, and Britain's non-broadcast advertising > watchdog has said it would investigate complaints about the campaign. > Earlier this week, Benetton defended the controversial campaign, insisting > that its aim the to foster debate, not to boost sales. > > The merchandise is designed by > Benetton, a unit of Milan-based Benetton > Group SpA , and manufactured by a third > party. Benetton USA merchandise has > been carried in 400 Sears stores since > last autumn. > > Sears, with annual revenue of $41 billion, > operates more than 850 full-line > department stores and 2,100 specialized > retail stores and offers some > merchandise online. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 11:43:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: list/power outage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The list was out of service yesterday afternoon due to a power outage. The entire town of Amherst, New York, which includes UB's north campus, lost electrical power for about 20 minutes - long enough to "knock out" the email and other servers, which then required close to a day's labor to restore. Christopher W. Alexander poetics list moderator ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:13:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rebecca Wolff Subject: benefit reading tonight Comments: To: rebecca@poetrysociety.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" if you didn't already know . . . Tonight at 7:30 Jorie Graham Paul Muldoon Colson Whitehead read to benefit Fence at Friends Seminary Meeting House 15 Rutherford Place (between 15th and 16th Streets and 2nd and 3rd Avenues) $15 or $20 includes subscription to Fence ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:35:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: If you would like to read your poetry at . . . MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A New Language: Russian and American Poetry Today April 28-30, 2000 Stevens Institute of Technology, Hoboken, NJ Sponsored by the Stevens Russian/American Cultural Exchange Program and the Stevens Dept. of Humanities and Social Sciences ----- The conference marks the publication of Crossing Centuries: The New Wave in Russian Poetry Edited by John High with Vitaly Chernetsky, Thomas Epstein, Lyn Hejinian, Patrick Henry, Gerald Janecek, and Laura Weeks with Vadim Mesyats and Leonard Schwartz ----- Invited Russian Poets and Translators include: Evgeny Bunimovich, Polina Barskova, Vitaly Chernetsky, Arkady Dragomoshchenko, Vladimir Druk, Galina Ermoshina, Elena Fanailova, Vladimir Gandelsman, Julia Kunina, Yaroslav Mogutin, Andrei Gritsman, Maria Maksimova, Vadim Mesyats, Lena Pahomova, Aleksei Parshchikov, Alexandra Petrova, Aleksandr Ulanov, Dmitry Vodennikov, Dmitry Volchek, and Ivan Zhdanov ----- POETS WHO WISH TO READ THEIR WORK AT THE CONFERENCE, please contact, no later than April 5th, the conference directors Edward Foster, Vadim Mesyats, and Deborah Sinnreich-Levi at talismaned@aol.com or at the Department of Humanities and Social Sciences, Stevens Institute of Technology, Hoboken, NJ 07030. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:33:49 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dana Lustig Subject: Re: death and commericals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Here's a more in-depth article on this issue I pulled from the Lamp of Hope list (they are a death row abolitionist group based out of Texas): Sears pulls Benetton contract after ad flap CHICAGO (AP) _ Benetton's latest ad campaign featuring death row inmates has unraveled a financial deal between the trendy Italian sportswear manufacturer and Sears, Roebuck and Co. The ads, which began appearing in magazines and on billboards last month, display portraits of American death row inmates in prison uniforms and the slogan "Sentenced to Death." The ads give the inmate's name, date of birth, crime and expected method of execution. Benetton officials said the ads were meant to raise awareness about the death penalty, but victims' rights groups said the ads glorified convicted killers and were insensitive to victims' families and friends. On Wednesday, groups picketed a Houston Sears store and Benetton's New York office. Hours later, Sears announced it would immediately pull Benetton-designed clothing from all 400 of its stores that have been selling the Benetton USA line. Sears chairman and chief executive Arthur C. Martinez was "outraged" at the ads, company spokesman Tom Nicholson said. "The advertising campaign was inconsistent with what Sears has come to stand for and is inconsistent with the customer base we serve," Nicholson said. The contract was canceled even though Benetton agreed to allow Sears to preview future ads. Sears has been weighing its decision to terminate the contract since it learned the content of the ads in early January, Nicholson said. "We have been hearing from people who have lost loved ones to some of the folks who have been profiled," Nicholson said. "It's reopened wounds and brought back a lot of painful memories and people are hurt by it." Benetton spokesman Mark Major did return a telephone call seeking comment. Earlier Wednesday, he said Benetton stood by its ads and believed it had succeeded in "launching a national and global discussion on capital punishment." The ad campaign also features a 96-page supplement entitled, "We, On Death Row," offering question-and-answer interviews with the inmates about their hopes, dreams and fears. The supplement begins with an essay by an advocacy group opposing capital punishment. Benetton made headlines recently with provoking ads that addressed such topics as AIDS, the refugee crisis in Kosovo and racism. It also prompted protests from the Roman Catholic Church in the 1990s for ads featuring models dressed as a priest and a nun who were kissing. Sears, based in the Chicago suburb of Hoffman Estates, introduced the Benetton USA clothing line last fall to help boost lagging clothing sales. Benetton made that line exclusively for Sears and continued to sell its United Colors of Benetton clothing in its own stores. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:47:57 -0500 Reply-To: i_wellman@dwc.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: D Wellman Subject: objectifying subjectivities MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ... aside from the ironies of my posy on gender, intended and othewise, I'd appreciate an extended discussion on the notion of "objectifying subjectivities" that I brought up there and which Walter Lew has begun to unravel. I'll offer an encrypted bit of reasoning. I more or less take my phrase to account for Olson's parading often of his subjectivity whilst attempting to avoid "lyric interference" by objectification. I believe his stance is in fact consistent with the modernist stance at large and that to an extent much lang po is also consistent with this standard of objectification, My Life," My Poetry." It does seem also that there are many post-modern schemes afoot to both elicit and objectify various forms of "interference" -- to give it form on the space of the page or to observe the twists of its syntax is to my mind an objectification. One difference between the modernist stance versus the post, might simply be whether or not the objectification reveals some coherent form ... (or necessary tendency, or ....). The enthusiasm for any interference that might obtrude itself seems to me part of a pomo zeit-geist and I suppose I am Freudian enough (or Deleuzian ...) to feel that the enthusiasm for uncensored bits of interference stems from those bits being overdetermined. I also happen to think that they are overdetermined differently because of gender (which is a social construction, etc ....) ... so I just don't believe in a naked poetry or that poets today of one or another pomo persuasion are more or less managing to be genuinely subjective. ... nor do I imply that one gender is better able to approach subjectivity than the other, although males are perhaps not as aware of the crucial role that it can play. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:54:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Epstein Subject: Reading (2/28, NYC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The F. W. Dupee Poetry Reading Series presents PAUL MULDOON Introduced by Kenneth Koch Monday, February 28 8 PM Maison Francaise (Buell Hall) Columbia University Amsterdam and 116th St. Admission Free ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:13:12 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Los desaparecidos In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:06 PM -0500 2/16/00, KENT JOHNSON wrote: ... I think maybe Dodie Bellamy's confusion about >certain issues of principle involved in le affaire Henri would be >lessened if she had the chance to read the piece-- or at least read >it again and reflect with more care on the sequence and meaning of >events involved.... whoa kent. i didn't notice dodie expressing "confusion." she was very clear in her opinions and her articulation of them, as always is. she, like many of us, have an understanding of what has gone down on the list that differs from yours. speaking of gender, your rhetorical device of attributing confusion to a woman who has a different perspective from yours is a wonderful case in point vis a vis the gender issues raised here by elizabeth, dodie, etc. it is a classic of what's called "condescension," or "belittlement," or "marginalization" of a female voice. would you have used the term "confusion" and exhorted, say, jacques d or charles b etc to read more carefully had they disagreed with your account or interpretation of an event? when a woman disagrees with you, it is not because she weak-minded. it is because she has surveyed the same evidence and come to a different conclusion. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:24:16 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gerald Schwartz Subject: Re: the "rigor of humor" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To A.C.G. & List: And what about the perception of humor? Sometimes it's not an easy procedure with some people. Take for example Beckett's line...insisting on the significance of "line" in ENDGAME: "nothing is funnier than unhappiness." What about the often cruel...which has aspects of gallows humor in it? Characters crammed into dustbins...or funeral urns...or buried up to their necks can be products of a comic vision...or indicate for others a fundamental despondency about the human condition... I have found the authentic laughter that precipitates from a well-forged combo of both. Best, Gerald ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:58:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: announcements Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Next week at the Poetry Project: Monday, February 21 at 8 pm Max Winter & Frank Sherlock Max Winter's poems have appeared in The Paris Review, The New Republic, Volt, Boulevard, Seneca Review, the Iowa Review, and many other publications. Frank Sherlock is the author of 13 (Ixnay). With poet Brett Evans, he collaborated on the film short, Read Shift. His newest book, A Revolutionary Kind of Fiction, is forthcoming from Buck Downs Books next year. Wednesday, February 23 at 8 pm Sekou Sundiata & Patricia Pruitt Sekou Sundiata's next CD, longstoryshort, a collaboration with Arto Lindsay, is forthcoming from Righteous Babe Records this year. He has recorded and performed with a variety of artists, including Nona Hendryx and Vernon Reid. He wrote and performed in The Circle Unbroken is a Hard Bop, a pioneering work at the Nuyorican Poets Cafe. Patricia Pruitt is the author of Sessions I & IV. She lives and writes in Turners Falls, MA. Friday, February 25 at 10:30 pm **Kick-off Event** for Issue Zero: A Literary Magazine Conference with readings by contributors to and editors of Barrow Street, Rattapallax, Lungfull!, Painted Bride Quarterly, The World, Nerve.com, Rattle, The Writers Voice, and American Letters & Commentary. FOR A COMPLETE SCHEDULE OF EVENTS FOR ISSUE ZERO, GO TO http://www.poetryproject.com/zero.html. ***** At the Poetry Project website, an updated "Notes on Publishing" by Maureen Owen at http://www.poetryproject.com/owen.html. If you haven't read it yet, you should! And if you read it already, read it again! ******** Public Service Announcement: This Saturday, at 4 pm, is a reading by EDWIN TORRES and WENDY KRAMER at Double Happiness, 173 Mott St. corner of Broome, downstairs. And next Saturday, same time, same place, is a reading by BRENDA COULTAS and JENI OLIN at Double Happiness. Boy, are these unmissable!!! Cancel the weekends in the Caribbean.... ******** "Trail not advised, unapproachable bird, concept without equivalent, all elements well shaped to form a story, I told myself, but the form is sufficient, and desire, the slow movement which carries you off, directs you, and brings you back along a trajectory which seems controlled--little matter whether it be by clear design or by the more obscure design of dream or destiny--at the moment an order compensates for the arbitrary." --Jean Fremont, _Painting_, translated by Brian Evenson ******** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 09:14:45 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Subject: Re: that pesky Shape of Time MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just to note I share your curiosity, Judy -- in How Why or even If habits of thinking change ("linear" or other). Like many who teach (or have taught) I believe I have seen changes that do happen, slowly sometimes or sometimes in bursts -- seemingly suddenly. As a learner, too, (of maths or dancing or music) I know I often struggle in frustrated incomprehension, really dumb, often, for what seems like a very long time. But eventually, if I am successful in learning something, (i.e. I get to be assured & competent) I can no longer understand how I could ever have been uncomprehending. What actually effects changes of this kind is not always readily identifiable, caught as it is in too many variable factors. In seminar classes, as in therapy, changes sought rationally occur by seeming unsought chance-like occurrences. It is not clear to me that art-works consciously designed & engineered to change a particular kind of thinking, even with attached long essays -- i.e. much expanded labels or titles, necessarily succeed in doing so. They might well produce aversion or irritation, which is a not infrequent response to didacic intentions in the arts. In the end, I'm puzzled too. I would like to know whether you think artworks do teach & how? best Tony Green (aka Vulgar Demon) ---Original Message----- From: Judy Roitman To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Saturday, 19 February 2000 02:04 Subject: Re: that pesky Shape of Time >from Jill Stengel: > >>i've made a couple of sculptural pieces to deal with, work with, against this >>static...not sure if they actually do, but i think they do...open fixed poems >>to new ideas, new vistas... > >I'm curious about how people --- the audience, so to speak --- actually >perceive things like this. Do their linear habits override everything? >How do people learn to break such habits? How can the work teach them? > >(and yes I know the answers depend on "which people?" which doesn't stop me >from being curious) > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Judy Roitman | "Whoppers Whoppers Whoppers! >Math, University of Kansas | memory fails >Lawrence, KS 66045 | these are the days." >785-864-4630 | >fax: 785-864-5255 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >http://www.math.ukans.edu/~roitman/ >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:54:28 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Balestrieri, Peter" Subject: Queries to the List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Everybody, Page 321 of my copy of Benvenuto Cellini's Autobiography is missing. Has anybody seen it? On Elmo's World, in the episode in which Elmo is a cowboy, does the cactus he lassoes say, "Nice ropin', Cowboy Elmo!" or "Good ropin', Cowboy Elmo!"? God told me to eat a stuffed pork chop and drink champagne before going to bed. What was God thinking? Thanks, Pete ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:00:58 -0800 Reply-To: jim@vispo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: SUNDAY AT DEFIB: RIDING THE MERIDIAN--WOMEN AND TECHNOLOGY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RIDING THE MERIDIAN--WOMEN AND TECHNOLOGY AT DEFIB Sunday February 6, Noon Pacific Time (20:00 GMT) Defib: http://www.webartery.com/defib/index.htm The new issue of Riding The Meridian (http://www.heelstone.com/meridian), edited by Jennifer Ley, Carolyn Guertin, CK Tower, and Marjorie Luesebrink is the subject of discussion this week at Defib, webartery.com's web-based chat forum. I hope that you will join us in polylogue about this landmark publication. RIDING THE MERIDIAN Riding the Meridian's Women and Technology issue (released February 15, 2000) features a round table discussion including professors and theorists N. Katherine Hayles and Marjorie Perloff, Eastgate aquisitions editor Diane Greco, and hypertext writers Shelley Jackson and Linda Carroli, a Progressive Dinner Party showcasing 39 of the leading women in hypertext web work created by Marjorie Luesebrink and contributing editor, Carolyn Guertin [with commentary by Hayles and Talan Memmott], and new work by Johanna Drucker, Sue Thomas, Ruth Daigon, Claudia Grinnell and Claire Dinsmore, to name just a few. Guertin also examines the underpinings of the upcoming Eastgate release Califia, by M.D. Coverley and Adriene Jenik introduces us to her interactive Desktop Theatre experiments, while CK Tower (editor of Conspire, which will feature a concurrent issue dedicated to women who write) interviews Daniela Gioseffi, and Judy Malloy talks to Jennifer Ley about her online conference dedicated to Gender and Identity in New Media. JENNIFER LEY Founder of the hypertext poetry site The Astrophysicist's Tango Partner Speaks and the internet literary magazine Riding the Meridian, much of Jennifer Ley's newest literary work is in the field of hypertext. Examples can be found on the web at the trAce anthology: My Millennium, in Cauldron and Net, in the upcoming issue of frAme, and in past issues of The Animist, Snakeskin and Conspire. Her newest work, the Body Politic, was shown at Digital Arts and Culture '99, sponsored by Georgia Tech and the University of Bergen - Norway. A 1998 Pushcart nominee, some of the literary magazines and anthologies that have published Ms. Ley's poetry include: Agnieszka's Dowry, Terrain, Salt River Review, Will Work for Peace, Octavo, 2River View, Recursive Angel, Silhouettes in the Electric Sky and Wise Woman's Web, among many others. Her work is anthologized at Poetry Cafe. DEFIB You're invited to participate/collaborate in this live chat session which, like the rest of the Defib Web artist interviews, is recorded and turned into a hypertranscript of the show. Past shows are available at http://webartery.com/defib/pastevents.htm TECH REQ All you need is a Java-enabled browser pointed at http://webartery.com/defib/index.htm to participate. Or mIRC or Ircle, etc (see Help section in Defib for details) if you prefer to use a traditional IRC client. Regards, Jim Andrews ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:56:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: combo website In-Reply-To: <4.0.1.20000131132817.00fb5a80@mail.bway.net> from "Charles Bernstein" at Feb 4, 2000 11:53:04 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thought you all might like to know that the COMBO site has been revised -- new info on the latest issue - #5 - including sample poems. www.combopoetry.com -Mike. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:06:09 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerrold Shiroma Subject: French Poetry Festival MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You will find the program of the French Poetry Festival ( March 1-25 ) at the following address : http://www.info-france-usa.org/culture/poetryfestival . ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:24:29 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jocelyn Saidenberg Subject: APRIL CONFERENCE AT SMALL PRESS TRAFFIC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1261209824==_ma============" --============_-1261209824==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Small Press Traffic Presents: Expanding the Repertoire: Continuity and Change in African-American Writing APRIL 7-9, 2000 Friday April 7, 2000 New College Cultural Center, 766 Valencia Street, San Francisco 6:00-7:30 p.m. Reception 7:30-9:30 p.m. Group Reading: Will Alexander, Wanda Coleman, C. S. Giscombe, Erica Hunt, and giovanni singleton Saturday April 8, 2000 New College Cultural Center, 766 Valencia Street Panel 1 10:30 a.m. -12:30 p.m. "Catch a Fire": The Role of Innovation in Contemporary Writing What characterizes innovation, and further, what are the effects of (and on) these characteristics when applied to various genres and cultural contexts? Panelists will discuss the ways in which the term "innovation" impacts critical approaches to African-American writing. Panelists: Wanda Coleman, Nathaniel Mackey, and Harryette Mullen. Moderator: Renee Gladman Panel 2 2:00-4:00 p.m. "Kindred": Origins of the Black Avant-Garde Panelists will discuss innovative African-American writing from a historical perspective by charting influences and directions, changes and continuities. What relationships exist between avant-gardes and mainstream literary production in the past and today? Panelists: Erica Hunt, Mark McMorris, and Lorenzo Thomas. Moderator: Harryette Mullen Group Reading New College Theater, 777 Valencia Street 7:00-9:30 p.m. Nathaniel Mackey, Mark McMorris, Harryette Mullen, Julie Patton, and Lorenzo Thomas Sunday, April 9, 2000 New College Cultural Center, 766 Valencia Street Panel 3 10:30 a.m.-12:30 p.m. "Tell My Horse": Poetics of Practice Panelists will speak directly about their work, their influences, and the various paths that they have taken. They will also discuss the organizations, communities, and systems of beliefs that surround them. What are the social and political contexts for innovative writing? How does this affect their writing and their lives? Panelists: Will Alexander, C.S. Giscombe, and Julie Patton. Moderator: giovanni singleton All events are free and open to the public. For more information or to volunteer please contact SPT at center@sptraffic.org. ---------------------------------------- Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center 766 Valencia Street San Francisco, CA 94110 415/437-3454 www.sptraffic.org --============_-1261209824==_ma============ Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PalatinoSmall Press Traffic Presents: Expanding the Repertoire: Continuity and Change in African-American Writing APRIL 7-9, 2000 PalatinoFriday April 7, 2000 New College Cultural Center, 766 Valencia Street, San =46rancisco 6:00-7:30 p.m. Reception 7:30-9:30 p.m. Group Reading: Will Alexander, Wanda Coleman, C. S. Giscombe, Erica Hunt, and giovanni singleton Saturday April 8, 2000 New College Cultural Center, 766 Valencia Street Panel 1=20 10:30 a.m. -12:30 p.m. "Catch a Fire": The Role of Innovation in Contemporary Writing What characterizes innovation, and further, what are the effects of (and on) these characteristics when applied to various genres and cultural contexts? Panelists will discuss the ways in which the term "innovation" impacts critical approaches to African-American writing. Panelists: Wanda Coleman, Nathaniel Mackey, and Harryette Mullen. =20 Moderator: Renee Gladman Panel 2 2:00-4:00 p.m.=20 "Kindred": Origins of the Black Avant-Garde Panelists will discuss innovative African-American writing from a historical perspective by charting influences and directions, changes and continuities. What relationships exist between avant-gardes and mainstream literary production in the past and today? Panelists: Erica Hunt, Mark McMorris, and Lorenzo Thomas. =20 Moderator: Harryette Mullen Group Reading New College Theater, 777 Valencia Street 7:00-9:30 p.m. Nathaniel Mackey, Mark McMorris, Harryette Mullen, Julie Patton, and Lorenzo Thomas Sunday, April 9, 2000 New College Cultural Center, 766 Valencia Street Panel 3 10:30 a.m.-12:30 p.m. "Tell My Horse": Poetics of Practice Panelists will speak directly about their work, their influences, and the various paths that they have taken. They will also discuss the organizations, communities, and systems of beliefs that surround them. What are the social and political contexts for innovative writing? How does this affect their writing and their lives? Panelists: Will Alexander, C.S. Giscombe, and Julie Patton. =20 Moderator: giovanni singleton All events are free and open to the public. =46or more information or to volunteer please contact SPT at center@sptraffic.org. ---------------------------------------- Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center 766 Valencia Street San Francisco, CA 94110 415/437-3454 www.sptraffic.org --============_-1261209824==_ma============-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 20:04:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Lost Project at trAce Online Writing Community MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII THE LOST PROJECT at trAce The Lost Project is up and running at: http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/lost/index.htm Please go to the site and add your name, email address, and a name and / or description of something you have lost, irretrievably. Thank you - Alan Sondheim sondheim@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 01:56:00 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: the "rigor of humor"/gender MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I noticed something interesting today. I was reading a book of essays on psychology. There was a pretty even split of male and female authors, but all of the women began their piece by explaining their background, experience, credentials, and/or education. This was not true of the men. Is this a singular phenomenon in psychology or is it also true of literature? If generally true I'm not sure what to make of it. tom bell "Arielle C. Greenberg" wrote: > > I agree that Elizabeth's recent postings have been refreshing. -- //\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\ OOOPSY \///\\\/\///\\\/ <><>,...,., WHOOPS J K JOVE BY HHH ZOOOOZ ZEUS'WRATHHTARW LLLL STOPG [ EMPTY ] SPACER index of online work at http://members.home.net/trbell essays: http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/criticism/gloom.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 04:57:28 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Vidaver Subject: An Heuristic Prolusion by Melissa Wolsak (Documents in Poetics Series) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Friends of Runcible Mountain is pleased to announce publication of An Heuristic Prolusion by Melissa Wolsak Documents in Poetics #1 ISBN 1-894473-06-X 32 pages $6 "This essay is as vital as Olson's Projective Verse / Human Universe twins, if quieter, quieter as befits the lateness of the hour. The proposition that our poetry is to make conversation possible once more, is a pragmatics of intuition, that first we have to figure how to write, ground up. Love is the question, since we are the answer. She finds such force in words, exemplary in her quick listening. You can't read it just once, life's too brief. You can read it forever." -- David Bromige Melissa Wolsak is the author of The Garcia Family Co-Mercy (Tsunami Editions 1994); her writing appears in Barscheit, Front, Writing, Boo, Raddle Moon, Matrix and the electronic journals Alterran Poetry Assemblage and East Village Poetry Web. To order please send cheque or money order to: Friends of Runcible Mountain Box 2684 Station Terminal Vancouver BC Canada V6B 3W8 Launch at the Kootenay School of Writing Sunday, February 27, 2:00 pm 201 - 505 Hamilton Street Vancouver BC Canada 604-688-6001 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:28:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Nielsen, Aldon" Subject: Re: Los desaparecidos In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >It's my understanding that one of the FlashPoint editors tried to >post a notice of the article's availability a couple of weeks ago. >Perhaps this notice never appeared for the reasons you mention >above. well now, if we are to make anything of this at all don't we need to know first of all if the person who attempted to post this notice had sub'd to the list? and then, that answered, we can see if there's any further mystery to be examined -- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 08:55:13 -0800 Reply-To: arshile@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Salerno Organization: Arshile: A Magazine of the Arts Subject: Re: If you would like to read your poetry at . . . MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Ed: Since I haven't seen a Talisman lately, it occurs to ask: Did an issue with the Bronk conference proceedings ever appear? If so, which one and when? Good wishes, Mark ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:24:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Nielsen, Aldon" Subject: Re: documentary poem list In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tolson's "LIBRETTO"? Baraka's "WHYS"? Thomas's "THE BATHERS"? Brooks's "IN THE MECCA"? the poetry sections of Herrera's "MAYAN DRIFTER" (as much verse as in "DICTEE")? need a still bigger net, I think -- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 12:22:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: subpress books / Jarnot MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message had to be reformatted. Chris -- Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:26:56 -0500 From: "Lisa Jarnot" Announcing the publication of two new books from subpress collective: DIMINUTIVE REVOLUTIONS by Daniel Bouchard 80 pages; perfect bound ISBN: 0-9666303-9-4 $10 "Daniel Bouchard's book is wonderful. A pure and absolute democracy of insight. Even had I not the privilege of knowing the author, I'd still feel moved to praise "Diminutive Revolutions." These poems make me feel that all attempts to convince us we live in an age bereft of beauty, poor in meaning, and lacking compassion will fail. Boredom is a crime, the active mind is alive." - Jennifer Moxley, author of "Imagination Verses" BLISS TO FILL by Prageeta Sharma 64 pages; perfect bound ISBN: 0-930068-00-X $10 "The use of poetry in this day and age is for its lesson of relation. Bliss to Fill is full of love poems, full of I and you and all their difficulties in getting along. And here, in the midst of love's intimacies, the poem is large and necessary, negotiating places and cultures, negotiating what it means to be relating across boundaries. This is a stunning collection." - Juliana Spahr Both books available through Small Press Distribution, 1-800-869-7553 and through `A`A Arts 2955 Dole St. Honolulu, HI 96816 Also from subpress: Catalina Cariaga. Cultural Evidence. Edwin Torres. Fractured Humorous. John Wilkinson. Oort's Cloud: Poems 1970-1984. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 12:28:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Power Poetix / Stefans MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian asked me some time ago to re-post this message, which, among others close to the turn of the month, was not rec'd at the list account. Apologies, Brian, for the delay. Chris -----Original Message----- From: Stefans, Brian Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 1:29 PM Subject: Power Poetix Just wanted to mention that Maria Damon's brief post kind of sums up a lot of what I meant in mine -- for her "diaries" I have "modest and/or shameful poets" like Hopkins who didn't publish, and for her "alpha male" I have (pardon me) Barrett Watten. I think Jacques makes some interesting points, though, in one of his follow-up emails, which is that he is using Bourdieu's frame of discourse not absolute as a mode of looking at "our" work, but that it helps bring in focus many neglected aspects of this sort of discussion, hence it is merely a tool that can be put away at any time. The problem with a too-trusted frame of discourse is that it invariably affects the data, the literature or the biographies, that one is attempting to analyze; consequently, we spend a lot of time trying to tell people what they are _really_ thinking and _really_ doing without spending the time to enter into this activity with a sense of detail, "luminous" detail, if you will. An example: when people were asking whether WCW as an "anti-semite," an answer just couldn't offer itself because the frame of the discourse didn't permit a suitable answer, it was either/or, and it seemed ridiculous to put WCW on one side with the Nazis and Ezra Pound, but not quite right to put him on the other. The frame of the discourse should be malleable based on the topic or materials being examined; also, we should be satisfied with no answer. [Sidenote: there's an interesting story in Tuesday's New York Times about creating "mirage" doubles of atomic particles on which one can run analyses without perverting the being of the original atom, as any little thing you send an atom's way changes it so much that nothing you observe can be thought of as "true".] One of my problems with this thread is that there's not a lot of new data being presented, just revisions of the model of analysis, hence the frame grows more complex but the range of references becomes very isolated, and generalizations are tossed around, such as about the role of Donald Allen's anthology in the plays of cultural capital. My sense is that the role the anthology played in New York culture among those who were actively involved, i.e. "included", in it, was probably much smaller than what is made of it by us, the successors who view it as some sort of milestone. It probably wasn't a milestone to Frank O'Hara, he knew all that work (and probably thought a lot of it was terrible) -- just a drop in the bucket, something to chat about between movies. That it was the shot heard around the world may not have meant much to him (just as we can probably agree that Rimbaud didn't care much for what the Season in Hell was doing to Paris when he was in his thirties). As for the "why write" question, one thing I might suggest is that one writes to render one's immediate environment either more predictable or more interesting, perhaps even more "stimulating" in a sexual way (somewhat different that the idea of the poem as unalienated labor, which is worth mentioning since my own computer-poems are very alienated labor, but I think they're "stimulating" to me to have in the environment). This basic idea encapsulates, I think, the idea of writing as the creation of "cultural capital" since one is writing to propel oneself further on some path toward, on the one hand, self-identity ("predictability" from day-to-day) which one perhaps mistakenly believes comes throught public recognition, and the chance to enter new spheres of being (getting a little reknown, going to better parties), on other words in changing one's lifestyle (because one thinks that having money and being famous is more interesting than not). But it also takes in those writers who don't operate in any of these ways, such as those who keep poems in diaries and those who, in a different light, write some version of pornography for themselves just to keep them going (such as R. Crumb, or his brother who, in the documentary about Crumb, wrote line after line of tiny type which was not legible to anyone), or those whose writing, like Edward Thomas's, were merely spiritual excercises in preparation for sermons. But that's just an idea. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 07:27:29 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Kuszai Subject: Tom Raworth at Beyond the Page Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" $3-8 ?? >From: scope@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (Stephen Cope) >Subject: Tom Raworth at Beyond the Page > >BEYOND THE PAGE continues its monthly series of literary and arts events >with the following reading/performance: > >What: Birttish poet Tom Raworth reads his work. > >Where: Faultline Theater, 3152 5th Avenue (at Spruce), San Diego. > >When: Sunday, February 27, 4PM. > >Etc: $3-8 donation requested. Beer, wine, and refreshments available. > > > > ************************* > > >* TOM RAWORTH has been a major voice in English poetry for over three >decades. Among his over two dozen books of poetry, collaboration, and >translation are THE RELATION SHIP, THE BIG GREEN DAY (illustrated by artist >Jim Dine), MOVING (illiustrated by Joe Brainard), THE MASK (illustrated by >Alastair Johnston), WRITING (a long poem), and a recent collection: CLEAN & >WELL LIT: SELECTED POEMS 1987-1995 (available through Small Press >Distribution). He has been a visiting lecturer and writer-in-residence at >over a dozen Universities in England, South Africa, and the United States, >including the University of Essex, University of New Hampshire, and the >University of California, San Diego (where he taught in 1996). Born in >London, Raworth currently lives in Cambridge, England. > > > > ************************* > > >BTP is proud to continue its monthly series of arts-related events with >this reading/performance. BTP is an independent literary and arts group >dedicated to the promotion of experimental and explorative work in >contemporary arts. For more information, call: (619) 273-1338, (619) >298-8761; e-mail: jjross@cts.com, scope@ucsd.edu. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:20:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: list delay MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The distribution of yesterday's Poetics List was delayed due to problems with university dialup. Chris Christopher W. Alexander poetic list moderator ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:22:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: BELLADONNA / Levitsky MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message had to be reformatted. I wish I could attend! Chris -- From: Rachel Levitsky Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 12:48:03 -0500 ENJOY BELLADONNA* 2000 All Readings Begin 7:00 P.M. with 15 minute Open *** Friday, Feb. 25 Erica Hunt/Wendy Kramer at Bluestockings Women's Bookstore 172 Allen Street between Rivington and Stanton on the Lower East Side of Manhattan Contact: (212)777-6028 for more information plan ahead for future readings: Thursday, March 30 Maureen Owen/Betsy Fagin * Thursday, May 4 Marilyn Hacker Yvette Christianse kari edwards ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 13:05:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lowther, John" Subject: gender / Introductions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain { p o e t i x } tom bell noted that in a book of psych essays "all of the women began their piece by explaining their background, experience, credentials, and/or education. This was not true of the men." then asked "Is this a singular phenomenon in psychology or is it also true of literature?" some psychologist has likely tried to study the question ---- i'll ask my psychologist when i go home tonight --- but to add more inconclusive anecdotal data : when we had a reading here in town for the group here all of the women reading (3 of the 4 in the group) made some sort of introduction, either to their work or giving some account of their interactions or introduction to the group ---- one of the 6 guys reading made such introductions i remember being sort of surprised when they started happening and wondered why it hadnt even occurred to me to offer any intro or context or whatever )L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:25:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: suggestions / Susan Gorgioski MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message had to be reformatted. Chris -- From: "wisp" Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 05:23:14 +1100 Hello all, My first posting to this interesting list. Just sending a poem I'd = appreciate any and all suggestions on. Probably better if you e-mail me = privately, doubt that the rest of the list would be interested. Cheers Susan Thoughts encased in words are jettisoned at high velocity: the chill brushing against my ear. The rattle before the shake of cuneiform worms eating through sleepwalking sewers. oh, glass made of air maybe it will snow tonight? Decaying beneath my feet, soil of dissected images: lamp, plate, grass, love, writing-- hurl wishes at a falling star. Slipped beneath fireworks straight lines shaping the sky into spheres of coloured lights: reflected, and refracted, wanting thoughts to fall into my soft, lined palms. Eyes follow, follow the scene, I return eating a bowl of Pistachio nuts. My thoughts are in the Royal Albert Hall: wait for the clash of symbols, wait for the curtain to fall. My thumbs are raw, savaged, hurting from cleaving apart, opening up these hard little nuts. Always two sets of reality before my brown eyes; one is true, the other must be false. But my thumbs are bleeding and my lips cannot form a single word : band aid. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 14:20:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kali Tal Subject: Re: Los desaparecidos & humor In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000218102624.009a5560@lmumail.lmu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I find Kent Johnson expressions of paranoia not only tiresome but in extremely poor taste. "Los desaparicidos" is the term used for folks murdered by right-wing death squads and buried in ditches. Seeing those words appropriated to describe the alleged virtual hounding of the likes of Henry Gould makes my stomach turn and my lip curl the same way it did when Clarence Thomas claimed he was the victim of a "lynching." It's a rhetorical device of the lowest sort, and not in the slightest bit amusing (to me) even if intended as irony. Which brings me to Gerald Schwartz' question about the perception of humor. Comedy is all a matter of perspective. Tadeusz Borowski wrote stories about the Holocaust that made me both laugh and cry; I resonate to them and find them funny in the most painful way. On the other hand, the old riddle about the difference between a Jew and a pizza hits me at about the same level as Johnson's use of "los desaparacidos". As we were all instructed back in kindergarten: it's the difference between laughing *with* and laughing *at*. Not really that hard a concept to grasp. Seems like just about any joke can be understood in terms of the "we" and the "them" it creates. Kali ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 15:02:07 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: objectifying subjectivities Comments: To: i_wellman@dwc.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following quote from Kristeva ('Subject in process," _Tel Quel Reader_ seems to me to mean that the subjective thrust should come from inside the objective (in our culture) rather than from a diametrically opposite stance and that this is not necessarily a simple feminine/masculine dichotomy: "The signifying function refused by our culture by consigning it to the domain of art, that is, to libraries or conferences ..the experience that the subject of theory might have herself of this functioning...invasion of the positivist neutrality of theory by the subjective experience of the theorist, by her capacity to put herself 'on trial', to move out of the enclosure of her individuality, be it split,to then return to the fragile site of metalanguage so as to utter the logic of this process, suffered if not understood." But then I have misunderstood (rather 'did not understand") Kristeva before. tom bell D Wellman wrote: -- //\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\ OOOPSY \///\\\/\///\\\/ <><>,...,., WHOOPS J K JOVE BY HHH ZOOOOZ ZEUS'WRATHHTARW LLLL STOPG [ EMPTY ] SPACER index of online work at http://members.home.net/trbell essays: http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/criticism/gloom.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 20:37:40 -0400 Reply-To: couroux@videotron.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marc Couroux & Juliana Pivato Organization: O'Tavip-Xuoruoc Productions Subject: US Candidates on the Arts MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit This just in from Charles Amirkhanian of the Other Minds list.... **************************************************************** The Associated Press recently asked the presidential candidates the following question related to the arts: Do you support federal subsidies for the arts? (in alphabetical order, the responses are:) DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES: Bill Bradley: ``Yes. The arts have enriched the lives of Americans, as well as our economy. The National Endowment for the Arts has been an important catalyst for that effort.'' Al Gore: ``I strongly believe in encouraging and supporting the arts and would continue the current policy of support. The arts are an important part of our life and our history and should be supported.'' REFORM CANDIDATE: Pat Buchanan: ``No. The National Endowment for the Arts has subsidized projects that are blasphemous, degraded and obscene. Let the Mapplethorpes and Serranos insult God and man on their own dime.'' REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES: George W. Bush: ``I believe we should continue federal funding for the arts, but give states a greater say in how the funds are spent. I don't believe we should spend public money to support obscene material or denigrate religion.'' Alan Keyes: ``No.'' John McCain: ``No. I have opposed federal funding for the National Endowment for the Arts because I believe it is not proper to use tax dollars for what many Americans feel are the obscene and inappropriate projects this organization has supported. I support providing federal block grants to the states for arts education and artistic endeavors pursued by state and local authorities, while assuring that federal tax dollars are not spent on obscene or offensive material.'' ----------------- Thanks to Americans for the Arts for this information. Remember to vote on Primary Day! ********************************** Marc Couroux http://pages.infinit.net/kore/couroux.html ************************** Ensemble KORE http://pages.infinit.net/kore ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:29:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Re: subpress books / Jarnot MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message had to be reformatted. Chris -- Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 22:37:48 -0500 From: "Lisa Jarnot" Announcing the publication of two new books from subpress collective: DIMINUTIVE REVOLUTIONS by Daniel Bouchard 80 pages; perfect bound ISBN: 0-9666303-9-4 $10 "Daniel Bouchard's book is wonderful. A pure and absolute democracy of insight. Even had I not the privilege of knowing the author, I'd still feel moved to praise "Diminutive Revolutions." These poems make me feel that all attempts to convince us we live in an age bereft of beauty, poor in meaning, and lacking compassion will fail. Boredom is a crime, the active mind is alive." --Jennifer Moxley, author of "Imagination Verses" BLISS TO FILL by Prageeta Sharma 64 pages; perfect bound ISBN: 0-930068-00-X $10 "The use of poetry in this day and age is for its lesson of relation. Bliss to Fill is full of love poems, full of I and you and all their difficulties in getting along. And here, in the midst of love's intimacies, the poem is large and necessary, negotiating places and cultures, negotiating what it means to be relating across boundaries. This is a stunning collection." --Juliana Spahr Both books available through Small Press Distribution, 1-800-869-7553 and through `A`A Arts 2955 Dole St. Honolulu, HI 96816 Also from subpress: Catalina Cariaga. Cultural Evidence. Edwin Torres. Fractured Humorous. John Wilkinson. Oort's Cloud: Poems 1970-1984. --MS_Mac_OE_3033844668_3105773_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 03:12:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matthew Hart Subject: _Parataxis_? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear List: Does anyone know an address for Drew Milne's magazine, _Parataxis_ -- used to operate out of Sussex, England? I'm assuming it's still going, although the last issue I saw was approx. 3 yrs. ago. Thanks in advance for yr. information, Matt Hart. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 04:18:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard Dillon Subject: Re: 'cultural capital' and 'prestige' Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit do the best we can in our moment. at times to quote Bukowski at least the legend of his name to those on this list who seek cultural capital and prestige as explanations for motivations for the literary writing he sought................at all Or as Dorn put it somewhere: Even a bloody finger on a wall will mark the work of one more step or breath malgre malgre ---------- >From: "I. Schmidt" >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: 'cultural capital' and 'prestige' >Date: Tue, Feb 15, 2000, 11:10 AM > >what literary writing is for >is not for anyone to say > >richard with all due respect >your response itself >seems more to choke off one more breath > >trip me up one more step > >i am disturbed by the hostility >to 'what is called thinking?' >on this list > >nowadays women write books >as long as men's books, >look at ursula k. leguin >or joyce carol oates for godsake >i don't think thinking out loud a lot >or writing long posts or books > >is simply male > >maybe women don't feel invited >to blabber on here the way men do >but i doubt the men feel invited >to blabber they just do it anyway > >---------- > >Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 22:55:18 -0500 >From: Richard Dillon >Subject: Re: 'cultural capital' and 'prestige' > >Neither of these words imply in any way >the capacity to inspire anyone anywhere >to take one more breath or step > >which is what literary writing bottom line is - for. > >---------- > >>From: Jim Andrews >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >>Subject: 'cultural capital' and 'prestige' >>Date: Fri, Feb 11, 2000, 3:39 AM >> > >>How does the notion of 'cultural capital' differ from 'prestige'? >> >>Jim Andrews >>Vispo ~ Langu(im)age >>http://vispo.com >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 01:02:19 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerrold Shiroma Subject: Small Press Announcements...New @ duration press MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This week's Small Press Publications Announcements page is online. http://www.durationpress.com Publishers who wish to have their publications listed should send all information to jerrold@durationpress.com Deadline for the next listing is March 3rd. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 01:22:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerrold Shiroma Subject: New @ duration press MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit New @ duration press: In addition to a redesigned website, duration press is pleased to announce: The Figures is now online http://www.durationpress.com/thefigures/ the complete catalog for Talisman House is online http://www.durationpress.com/talisman/ Krupskaya is now online http://www.durationpress.com/krupskaya/ (please watch for announcements concerning krupskaya's forthcoming url change) *** Coming soon @ duration: Potes & Poets Press Title information for Series Three of our chapbook series (to be released Summer '00) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 13:40:15 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: death and commericals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Perhaps about death we will have less prepackaged discussions. Murat "it's an ancient truism, that advertisers use sex to sell..more or less everything; (and of course clever intellectuals have also been saying for the last couple of decades, that while our culutre has become more open about sex than it used to be, the one thing it is considered "obscene" and unallowable to talk about, is death" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 13:50:53 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: censorious? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "There have been many accusations of "censorship" on this list -- specifically against the list moderators -- all of which I have found disingenuous. From having observed the "Henry Gould events" on this list I do not believe that Charles Bernstein or Joel Kuszai "censored" anyone, so I'm with Dodie on this one. If CB or JK contacted listees about the number of their posts, that does not constitute "censorship," and it was within their rights as list owners and moderators, and further, was for the benefit of the entire list community. I think people should be more careful about what kind of accusations they make, and be sure that there is ample evidence to support said accusation. Thanks, Kathy Lou" I thought preventing someone from saying things one doesn't like, often for the sake of the "larger community," is the very definition of censorship. It doesn't matter if the prevention is official or "back channel." Murat ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:34:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: experimental poetry and regionalism / Allegrezza MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message had to be reformatted. Chris -- From: "Bill Allegrezza" Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 13:10:33 -0600 Does anyone know any recent books that discuss the relation between = experimental poetry and regionalism? Bill ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 13:35:39 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hoa Nguyen Subject: whoa (hoa) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Re: Maria’s response taking Kent’s referral to Dodie’s "confusion" to task--Dodie introduces her conclusions regarding the Gould matter with "Has my memory failed me or..." and "as far as I remember (and I wasn’t really paying attention)...". So, it seems reasonable to me that Kent attributed a certain amount of confusion to a statement prefaced with its own self-acknowledged unreliability. Despite the reorganization, I do not find the managed List to be a place where a diversity of voices is more present--if anything, it seems, the opposite has occurred--a cautious repression pervades. Spontaneity and wit are noticeably scarce. And there isn’t any evidence that women are contributing at a greater pace (and the paucity of women’s voices here is discouraging). Hoa PS: Hey Elizabeth: My Wu-name came out to be "Amazing Overlord" when I included my middle initial--without it, I was assigned "Happy Swami". I think I’d rather be amazing... PPS: Thank you, everyone, for your generous support of Skanky Possum... On Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:13:12 –0600 Maria Damon wrote: whoa kent. i didn't notice dodie expressing "confusion." she was very clear in her opinions and her articulation of them, as always is. she, like many of us, have an understanding of what has gone down on the list that differs from yours. speaking of gender, your rhetorical device of attributing confusion to a woman who has a different perspective from yours is a wonderfulcase in point vis a vis the gender issues raised here by elizabeth, dodie, etc. it is a classic of what's called "condescension," or "belittlement," or "marginalization" of a female voice. would you have used the term "confusion" and exhorted, say, jacques d or charles b etc to read more carefully had they disagreed with your account or interpretation of an event? when a woman disagrees with you, it is not because she weak-minded. it is because she has surveyed the same evidence and come to a different conclusion. At 12:06 PM -0500 2/16/00, Kent Johnson wrote: ... I think maybe Dodie Bellamy's confusion about certain issues of principle involved in le affaire Henri would be lessened if she had the chance to read the piece-- or at least read it again and reflect with more care on the sequence and meaning of events involved.... Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:38:41 -0800 Dodie Bellamy wrote: Has my memory failed me or is it not the case that Henry Gould dropped off the list himself? As far as I remember (and I wasn't paying much attention) he was not kicked off or censored. After zillions of people begged both on the list and backchannel to the administration for Henry to not post so many messages each day, but to combine his messages, he left the list. There was no censorship of content here. It was a mass appeal by hundreds of people who felt bombarded and harassed by HG's excessive number of posts. I was never involved in any of the Henry stuff and I have no bad feelings against him, but this developing issue of his martyrdom is smoke without fire. What Susan Howe thinks of the list is Susan's business and shouldn't be taken as any reflection of the list. I think Charles, Joel Kuszai, and now Chris have done a wonderful, apparently thankless job here. And all three of them has been supportive of my own experiments into gender hysteria. Dodie What Susan Howe thinks of the list is Susan's business and shouldn't be taken as any reflection of the list. I think Charles, Joel Kuszai, and now Chris have done a wonderful, apparently thankless job here. And all three of them has been supportive of my own experiments into gender hysteria. Dodie ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 16:03:01 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: that pesky Shape of Time In-Reply-To: <004501bf7a4d$d04f6d80$443061cb@a> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Just to note I share your curiosity, Judy -- in How Why or even >If habits of thinking change ("linear" or other). Like many who teach >(or have taught) I believe I have seen changes that do happen, slowly >sometimes or sometimes in bursts -- seemingly suddenly. > > As a learner, too, (of maths or dancing or music) I know I often >struggle in frustrated incomprehension, really dumb, often, for what seems >like a very long time. > But eventually, if I am successful in learning something, (i.e. I >get to be assured & competent) I can no longer understand how I could ever >have been uncomprehending. > What actually effects changes of this kind is not always readily >identifiable, caught as it is in too many variable factors. In seminar >classes, as in therapy, changes sought rationally occur by seeming unsought >chance-like occurrences. > It is not clear to me that art-works consciously designed & >engineered to change a particular kind of thinking, even with attached long >essays -- i.e. much expanded labels or titles, necessarily succeed in >doing so. They might well produce aversion or irritation, which is a not >infrequent response to didacic intentions in the arts. > > In the end, I'm puzzled too. I would like to know whether you think >artworks do teach & how? > >best Tony Green (aka Vulgar Demon) > Beats me. Repeated exposure helps I think. But no guarantee. It's a real mystery to me. I'm interested in any light available. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Whoppers Whoppers Whoppers! Math, University of Kansas | memory fails Lawrence, KS 66045 | these are the days." 785-864-4630 | fax: 785-864-5255 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.math.ukans.edu/~roitman/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 16:09:25 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: censorious?/framular fantasia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Kathy Lou, is censorship too strong a word? is that it? i was not blaming anyone; just noting things about the forum. i really hope i've been clear on this. i'm pleased that it's being talked about in various ways. framular fantasia: only weird white men stuck in offices with fat stomachs and feet up appear in Benetton ads.* Sappho made a name for herself in the mode of TS Eliot. Dickinson in the mode of Pound. Djuna Barnes in mode of Mae West. Sarah Fielding wrote the most talked about novels in your adv level junior year of high school English class. Aphra Behn usurped the position of Shakespeare, and no one even realizes it. Mary Daly has taken on the cultural clout of that Bloom fellow, or even William Gass. The Hystericists are more well known than the Surrealists. Your subjectivity fits only into my stream of consciousness obj. But i love ya for it and forgive myself. *This is happening in the "dumb men" ads fellows I know complain of. New things are at http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy now. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 17:00:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: Rachel Levitsky Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Please contact. Thanks ___________________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell Double Lucy Books & Outlet Magazine http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 17:21:41 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: pete spence Subject: Re: that pesky Shape of Time Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > >yes, new ideas, new vistas.The experiences you describe are also >available in the best web poetry pieces. > >tom bell > >Jill Stengel wrote: > > > > i've made a couple of sculptural pieces to deal with, work with, against >this > > static...not sure if they actually do, but i think they do...open fixed >poems > > to new ideas, new vistas. >-- >//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\ .... maybe if you have worked with film animation as much as i have you would see you haven't moved at all//pete spence ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 20:57:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: bill marsh Subject: email address search In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit could Gerald please email me with his email address sorry for the interruption bill marsh zazil > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Gerald Schwartz > Sent: Friday, February 18, 2000 10:24 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: the "rigor of humor" > > > To A.C.G. & List: > > And what about the perception of humor? > > Sometimes it's not an easy procedure with some people. Take for example > Beckett's line...insisting on the significance of "line" in > ENDGAME: "nothing > is funnier than unhappiness." What about the often cruel...which > has aspects > of gallows humor in it? > > Characters crammed into dustbins...or funeral urns...or buried up to their > necks can be products of a comic vision...or indicate for others a > fundamental despondency about the human condition... > > I have found the authentic laughter that precipitates from a well-forged > combo of both. > > Best, > > Gerald > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 11:58:21 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Sense of time MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The shape of time thread is fascinating to me. Don't we prejudge the question if we call it a shape? It could be a feel, a taste, a sound, etc... I've long a problematic relationship to time, and felt that I've misperceived it. For example, my sense is that January to May is an equivalent duration to September through December. If I look at a calendar I see that I am mistaken. My sense of time is mostly cyclical, sometimes spiral. I am pathologically punctual, though prone to miss long-term deadlines. Poetry makes time elastic--compresses or expands it; at least that is my experience reading it. The whole idea of time standing still for the traditional lyric moment still rings true with me. Reading the same text at an interval of twenty-five years is a strange experience, especially if no reading has intervened in the interim. I started playing drums about a year ago. I didn't realize when I began that my real reason was to further explore my obsession with time--as though poetry were not enough! The vocabulary for speaking about time that drummers have developed is really incredible, and I tend to apply it back to poetry metaphorically and literally, as in my poem "Sam Beckett's Ride Cymbal." Just a few random thoughts. I could go on for months on this topic... Jonathan Mayhew jmayhew@ukans.edu _____________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:10:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Graham Foust Subject: Lagniappe #4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy. The Fall 1999 issue of Lagniappe: Poetry and Poetics in Review is now online, featuring reviews of Jorie Graham, Nathaniel Mackey, Dale Smith, Walter Benjamin, Christopher Beach, Dan Farrell, Sarah Law, Lisa Lubasch, Lyn Hejinian, Chain #6, and The Germ #3 and letters from Lytle Shaw and Alan Gilbert. Contributors include Lyndall Borden, Logan Esdale, Ben Friedlander, Wyman Jennings, Winnie Nelson, Tom Orange, Ethan Paquin, Laura Penny, Jonathan Skinner, and Brian Kim Stefans. http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~foust/lagniappe.html best, Graham Foust ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 18:08:01 -0500 Reply-To: mjk@acsu.buffalo.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mike Kelleher Subject: THE POET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello POETizens, I am putting together a bibliography on the idea of THE POET and was wondering if people could point me to essays and passages and quotes by POETS and nonPOETS alike that attempt to identify what is called THE POET, or to define the role of THE POET or THE POET's relationship to society or a la Plato to denigrate that role or identification, etc. I mean specifically THE POET and not POETry or POETics. Any backchannelled assistance would be much apurshiated. Kindly, Mike ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 22:24:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard Dillon Subject: Re: 'cultural capital' and 'prestige' Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit My response was intended to deal with the problem of vanity. Taken out of context to suit your own rhetorical purpose(s) what I intended can be made to mean any number of horrible things. "Breath" and "Step" as terms don't exclude anyone from whatever inspiration whatever pen may conduit through whatever dark city any one of us may find ourselves in folly wandering. I don't like the human condition anymore than the next pilgrim. Creeley's program to make or try to make something terrific out of it or even a Bronk's shout gives me at least a clue to continue to the next try..........somehow. ---------- >From: "I. Schmidt" >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: 'cultural capital' and 'prestige' >Date: Tue, Feb 15, 2000, 11:10 AM > >what literary writing is for >is not for anyone to say > >richard with all due respect >your response itself >seems more to choke off one more breath > >trip me up one more step > >i am disturbed by the hostility >to 'what is called thinking?' >on this list > >nowadays women write books >as long as men's books, >look at ursula k. leguin >or joyce carol oates for godsake >i don't think thinking out loud a lot >or writing long posts or books > >is simply male > >maybe women don't feel invited >to blabber on here the way men do >but i doubt the men feel invited >to blabber they just do it anyway > >---------- > >Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 22:55:18 -0500 >From: Richard Dillon >Subject: Re: 'cultural capital' and 'prestige' > >Neither of these words imply in any way >the capacity to inspire anyone anywhere >to take one more breath or step > >which is what literary writing bottom line is - for. > >---------- > >>From: Jim Andrews >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >>Subject: 'cultural capital' and 'prestige' >>Date: Fri, Feb 11, 2000, 3:39 AM >> > >>How does the notion of 'cultural capital' differ from 'prestige'? >> >>Jim Andrews >>Vispo ~ Langu(im)age >>http://vispo.com >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:43:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Prageeta Sharma and Heather Peterson / Sharma MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message had to be reformatted. Chris -- From: "Prageeta Sharma" Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:44:44 EST Sorry if you've already received this! Hope to see you in Boston!!! -- From: "Aaron Kiely" Subject: Prageeta Sharma and Heather Peterson Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 08:43:06 PST hi all $$THE$$$$$$$$$$ presents $$$$BOOKCELLAR$ Prageeta Sharma and Heather Peterson $$POETRY$$$$$$$ February 26th, Saturday $$$$$$$SERIES$$ 7:00 P.M. PRAGEETA SHARMA received an MFA from Brown University in 1995. Her PRAGEETA SHARMA work has appeared in Agni, Boston Review, New PRAGEETA SHARMA Orleans Review, Shiny, Combo and The Hat. Her book, PRAGEETA SHARMA Bliss To Fill, has just been published by subpress PRAGEETA SHARMA collective feb. 2000, she also has a chapbook titled PRAGEETA SHARMA "A Just-so Poem" coming out from Booglit later this PRAGEETA SHARMA month. She lives in Brooklyn. HEATHER PETERSON is an artist currently working on a series of HEATHER PETERSON paintings and sculptures that deal with levels of HEATHER PETERSON abstraction and densities of light. She teaches HEATHER PETERSON architecture at The Rhode Island School of Design HEATHER PETERSON and The Boston Architectural Center. Her writing HEATHER PETERSON has appeared on The East Village Poetry website. HEATHER PETERSON She is working on a, yet untitled and unsolicited, HEATHER PETERSON chapbook about perception, science and 20 c. art. Please stay tuned for more readings at the Bookcellar. The Bookcellar is a-located at 1971 Mass Ave. Porter Sq. Cambridge 2 blocks from the Red Line Subway. Yup, you guessed it, the readings are absolutely free if you have absolutely no money you can donate to the readers. Thanks, Aaron Kiely ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 13:01:41 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: wisp Subject: Love and Grasshoppers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello list, Just another example of my "stuff", if anyone wants to comment:-) thanks Susan "Love and Grasshoppers" Always safer in the present tense; as a thing amused by its limitations. Watch the grasshopper on the window's ledge the one still and content and the other a nervous pallbearer. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 14:54:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: levitsk@ATTGLOBAL.NET Subject: Friday NYC--W.Kramer/E.Hunt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ENJOY BELLADONNA* 2000 All Readings Begin 7:00 P.M. with 15 minute Open *** Friday, Feb. 25 Erica Hunt/Wendy Kramer at Bluestockings Women's Bookstore 172 Allen Street between Rivington and Stanton on the Lower East Side of Manhattan Contact: (212)777-6028 for more information plan ahead for future readings: Thursday, March 30 Maureen Owen/Betsy Fagin * Thursday, May 4 Marilyn Hacker Yvette Christianse kari edwards ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 11:58:28 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: experimental poetry and regionalism / Allegrezza Comments: To: wallegr@lsu.edu In-Reply-To: <117185.3160211640@321maceng.fal.buffalo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" a student of mine, kelly ann kuhn, is working on retheorizing region --and looking at dorn and niedecker --i'll pass your msg on to her. At 12:34 PM -0500 2/22/00, Poetics List wrote: >This message had to be reformatted. Chris > >-- >From: "Bill Allegrezza" >Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 13:10:33 -0600 > > >Does anyone know any recent books that discuss the relation between = >experimental poetry and regionalism? > >Bill ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:00:02 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: THE POET Comments: To: mjk@acsu.buffalo.edu In-Reply-To: <38B1C551.51A1E8AB@acsu.buffalo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" bob kaufman's poem THE POET comes immediately to mind. At 6:08 PM -0500 2/21/00, Mike Kelleher wrote: >Hello POETizens, > >I am putting together a bibliography on the idea of THE POET and was >wondering if people could point me to essays and passages and quotes by >POETS and nonPOETS alike that attempt to identify what is called THE >POET, or to define the role of THE POET or THE POET's relationship to >society or a la Plato to denigrate that role or identification, etc. > >I mean specifically THE POET and not POETry or POETics. > >Any backchannelled assistance would be much apurshiated. > >Kindly, > >Mike ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 13:20:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael J Kelleher Subject: Re: THE POET Comments: To: Maria Damon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Maria! Best, M ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 15:29:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: list delay MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Poetics List has once again been delayed due to server problems. Christopher W. Alexander poetics list moderator ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 11:34:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: experimental poetry and regionalism / Allegrezza In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Very interesting question from this arizona point of view, where it seems regional is dominated by popular stereotypes of the region, and not at all by actual work that goes on in the region, which would include the experimental (in many forms) as well as a lot of other things not covered by the stereotypes. Please keep me informed. charles At 11:58 AM 2/22/00 -0600, you wrote: >a student of mine, kelly ann kuhn, is working on retheorizing region --and >looking at dorn and niedecker --i'll pass your msg on to her. > >At 12:34 PM -0500 2/22/00, Poetics List wrote: >>This message had to be reformatted. Chris >> >>-- >>From: "Bill Allegrezza" >>Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 13:10:33 -0600 >> >> >>Does anyone know any recent books that discuss the relation between = >>experimental poetry and regionalism? >> >>Bill > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 10:36:35 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: Re: Love and Grasshoppers In-Reply-To: <005b01bf7c0f$9c791d80$943686cb@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Hello list, > >Just another example of my "stuff", if anyone wants to comment:-) >thanks >Susan > >"Love and Grasshoppers" > >Always safer in >the present tense; > as a thing amused > by its limitations. > > > Watch the grasshopper > > on the window's ledge > > the one > > still and content > > and the other > > a nervous pallbearer. Susan, this is a fine poem. Thanks for posting it. The framing (the first) stanza is economical & necessary. I do hear an echo of Marianne Moore in its last 2 lines which is intrusive and cd be cleared away by substituting another word for 'amused.' The strongest line to me is "still and content," as surprising definition of such condition. "Grasshopper"--wouldnt it be better as a plural? Since we are told of "the one...and the other"? David ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 14:04:19 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Subject: Re: experimental poetry and regionalism / Allegrezza MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill-- On regionalism and experimentation--see the current issue of The New Orleans Review. The special issue focuses on An Other South and explores the intersections of regionalism and experimental writing. Hank Lazer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 15:56:00 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Erik Sweet Subject: Tool a Magazine # 3 for sale!!!! now MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit TOOL A MAGAZINE Its time for you all to support contemporary poetry by purchasing "Tool a Magazine" Issue # 3-- Note: We are a magazine solely funded by the editors, and have for the past few years published some wonderful and interesting writing, which needs to be supported by the community that it services. Please think about the small presses which invest in new and experimental writing and writers; we are there to push forward writing which needs to be published and read. Since we pay for this ourselves, we rely on the community of writers out there who appreciate and read poetry and experimental literature to buy our magazine and read it! This is not financed by a University or grant, when we don't break even, we feel it. Any support is appreciated, it is important to us (the editors) to share the writers we publish!!!! So break out those checkbooks and buy the third issue of our magazine which features some great writing by: Rosmarie Waldrop, John Yau, Laird Hunt, Brenda Iijima, Elizabeth Young, Sean Killian, Jen Hofer, Charles Borkhuis, Eileen Myles, Lee Ranaldo, Brian Strang, Donna de la Perriere, Drew Garder, Alicia Wing, Dan Machlin, Brett Evans, and Gerald Schwartz. only 6$ postage paid made out to Erik Sweet or Lori Quillen at P.O. Box 3125, Albany, NY 12203 Support the small press community by stopping by the "Issue Zero" conference/gathering, put together by Brendan Lorber and Douglas Rothschild, the weekend of MArch 10-12 in New York. The editors of Tool a Magazine will be there along with many others. Stop by and say hi! Erik and Lori ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 15:03:54 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: censorious? In-Reply-To: <2d.18608ae.25e1918d@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >"There have been many accusations of "censorship" on this list -- >specifically against the list moderators -- all of which I have found >disingenuous. From having observed the "Henry Gould events" on this list I >do not believe that Charles Bernstein or Joel Kuszai "censored" anyone, so >I'm with Dodie on this one. If CB or JK contacted listees about the number >of their posts, that does not constitute "censorship," and it was within >their rights as list owners and moderators, and further, was for the benefit >of the entire list community. I think people should be more careful about >what kind of accusations they make, and be sure that there is ample evidence >to support said accusation. >Thanks, >Kathy Lou" > > >I thought preventing someone from saying things one doesn't like, often for >the sake of the "larger community," is the very definition of censorship. It >doesn't matter if the prevention is official or "back channel." > >Murat If someone intimidates others into silence (thereby effectively censoring them) is it censorship to block the intimidating language? Just a theoretical question, of course. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Whoppers Whoppers Whoppers! Math, University of Kansas | memory fails Lawrence, KS 66045 | these are the days." 785-864-4630 | fax: 785-864-5255 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.math.ukans.edu/~roitman/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 15:09:11 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: Sense of time In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The vocabulary for speaking about time that >drummers have developed is really incredible, ... >Jonathan Mayhew >jmayhew@ukans.edu > >_____________ Hi, Jonathan. Can you tell us more about this? My brother's a drummer, he never mentioned this. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Whoppers Whoppers Whoppers! Math, University of Kansas | memory fails Lawrence, KS 66045 | these are the days." 785-864-4630 | fax: 785-864-5255 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.math.ukans.edu/~roitman/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 15:11:57 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: experimental poetry and regionalism / Allegrezza In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" from Maria Damon: >a student of mine, kelly ann kuhn, is working on retheorizing region --and >looking at dorn and niedecker --i'll pass your msg on to her. > >At 12:34 PM -0500 2/22/00, Poetics List wrote: >>This message had to be reformatted. Chris >> >>-- >>From: "Bill Allegrezza" >>Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 13:10:33 -0600 >> >> >>Does anyone know any recent books that discuss the relation between = >>experimental poetry and regionalism? >> >>Bill Surely Irby should be included as well. And others. Who? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Whoppers Whoppers Whoppers! Math, University of Kansas | memory fails Lawrence, KS 66045 | these are the days." 785-864-4630 | fax: 785-864-5255 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.math.ukans.edu/~roitman/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 15:38:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Catalina Cariaga and Heather Fuller Reading 2/25 at SPT / Saidenberg MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message had to be reformatted. Chris -- From: Jocelyn Saidenberg Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 15:44:41 -0800 Small Press Traffic Reading Friday, February 25, 7:30 p.m. Catalina Cariaga Heather Fuller Catalina Cariaga lives in Oakland, and her first book Cultural Evidence is the first production of Subpress Collective, the new artist-run poetry collective. Cultural Evidence is an intensely serious exploration of family and language, combining the uncanny authenticities of oral tradition and the most sophisticated mixed-use typeface technology, mirroring the diaspora of her family from the South Asian Pacific islands to California's rocky beaches and cities. Publishers Weekly says "Whether deconstructing myths of anthropology's objectivity, of "culture" as defined by different, often incompatible worldviews, or self-sustaining myths of non-fluid time, nation, place or language, Cariaga's passionate investigations provide ample evidence for their dispersal." Her poems have appeared in Chain, New American Writing and Zyzzyva, among others. In the poetry circles of Washington, DC, Heather Fuller is a weird goddess of chance and rapid-fire experiment. We in San Francisco deserve to have her live here, but she doesn't. Like Peter Sellers in Dr Strangelove, she conducts arcane tests into the patterns of the tattered cobwebs that hold us together and drip from the rafters of the ancient cathedrals. Her books include perhaps this is a rescue fantasy (1997), beggar (1998), Eyeshot (1999) and two forthcoming books-Madonna Fatigue (Meow Press), and C Ration Dog & Pony (Like Books). Her essays, reviews, plays, and poetry have appeared in Chain, the minnesota review, Mirage #4/Period[ical], Antenym, Primary Writing, two girls review, Combo, Membrane, Articulate, Poetry New York, readme, and elsewhere. New College Cultural Center 766 Valencia Street, San Francisco $5 ---------------------------------------- Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center 766 Valencia Street San Francisco, CA 94110 415/437-3454 www.sptraffic.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 19:27:27 -0500 Reply-To: i_wellman@dwc.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: D Wellman Subject: Re: objectifying subjectivities MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Concerning what Thomas Bell suggests re Krisyeva, I earlier send him the following back-channel (typos corrected here). I offer it to all in hopes of continuing the thread. ............ Tom, thanks for the post. I almost added "Kristevan" rather than "DeLeuzian" to my message. She is surely one of the richest sites for mining subjectivity, but I don't feel that here she does more than speak to the value of relexivity in theory. ... and I guess I am arguing that reflexivity is precisely another name for "objectifying subjectivity." When she writes of hunger and desire .... then she is very conscious breaking through the loop of objectifying discourse. I do not consider object/subject as polar, but as imbricated. perhaps with other factors in a fold. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 19:30:19 -0500 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Re: the "rigor of humor"/gender In-Reply-To: <38AE4C90.39650E48@home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have for some time imagined that the absence of the identity of males is somehow related to illusions of omnipresence, theories of no-self, monotheism, products of hypersurvivalist and isolationist quasi-fascist island pirate nation-states and monarchies such as Japan, Britain and the us (perhaps the us is just a really big island). I've had the overwhelming impression that the aesthetic of no-self, and the absence of identities supported by many (mostly male) writers, is incredibly masculine, patriarchal. it's the type of aesthetic that perhaps gives the rationale for erasing identities in prisons, for building panopticons, for numbering soldiers labeled with dog tags who are sent off as identity-less numbers to die in battle, for dehumanizing the organizing strengths of humans resistant to such patriarchal forms of power. this perception for me applies from literature to religion to philosophy to politics. I can just barely see, perhaps on an intuitive level, a tacit prescription that men should not be present, we should be hovering over the landscape, as gods, as objective observers. you know, the strong silent types. while femininity seems more firmly rooted in being of this world, that there is some belief that bias and personality and presence _add_, not detract. of course this could be one horrific generalization. just please note I have said this is merely my sense of the world, of masculinity and femininity. Patrick Herron -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Thomas Bell Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2000 2:56 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: the "rigor of humor"/gender I noticed something interesting today. I was reading a book of essays on psychology. There was a pretty even split of male and female authors, but all of the women began their piece by explaining their background, experience, credentials, and/or education. This was not true of the men. Is this a singular phenomenon in psychology or is it also true of literature? If generally true I'm not sure what to make of it. tom bell "Arielle C. Greenberg" wrote: > > I agree that Elizabeth's recent postings have been refreshing. -- //\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\ OOOPSY \///\\\/\///\\\/ <><>,...,., WHOOPS J K JOVE BY HHH ZOOOOZ ZEUS'WRATHHTARW LLLL STOPG [ EMPTY ] SPACER index of online work at http://members.home.net/trbell essays: http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/criticism/gloom.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 17:21:16 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: experimental poetry and regionalism / Allegrezza In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>From: "Bill Allegrezza" >>Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 13:10:33 -0600 >> >> >>Does anyone know any recent books that discuss the relation between = >>experimental poetry and regionalism? >> >>Bill I dont know your take on "recent," but I published (a number of times) an essay called "Reaney's Region," in which I theorized an opposition between the concept of region and what Olson called "polis." The essay appeared, for example, in my 1982 book, _A Way With Words_, Ottawa, Oberon Books. George Bowering. fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 14:37:10 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Angle Press Angle Press Subject: Gaz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I am looking for a contact for Gaz. A publisher. A poetry publisher. Perhaps in S.F.... Please backchannel. Thanks to anyone who can assist. Angle Press ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1990 00:13:36 -0500 Reply-To: Brian Stefans Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Stefans Subject: "Cyberpoetry" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's an old post of mine which never made it to the list during it's recent problems. The Jim is Jim Andrews (not Jim Kirk). I had posted it to the Rhizome list as well, where it caused a little stir (but not enough -- soon they were just bludgeoning each other again). *** Hi Jim, I went to a Rhizome event a few days back, at which an artist gave a talk on his work over the past 4 years, which was pretty interesting -- the work spanned uses of Java applets and Flash, not to mention really fine uses of sound collage and very basic (quick-loading) imagery to great effect. But I was struck by the frame of the event, as it was sponsored by the magazine Silicon Alley as well as by Artbyte, which seems to have only practically no consciousness of the potential dangers of the role corporate (meaning capitalist) entities play in this dialogue of corporate (meaning web-based community) art creations. The artist himself calmly noted frequently that he had "two careers," one as a web-designer for a company and one as an artist. This, I think, is different than being a poet and a some-time writer of book reviews, teacher, or editor; it seemed that he was mining his own artistic ideas for later use on a corporate website, kind of like when MTV mined the ideas of avant-garde filmmakers for their videos, except in this case the artist (whose work by the way is at www.lightofspeed.com) was both figures, artist and exploiter. In Artbyte itself, there was an article called "Prophets and Profits" about figures such as philosopher Stewart Brand who, in their theories of the "long view," are really selling their ideas as vehicles for solutions in business concerns (a relationship MacLuhan could be said to have foreseen with his work with advertisers). I guess the reason why this isn't totally scandalous is that the underlying assumption is that businesses have to survive these days based the on the degree of "innovation" in their products, and since business moves so rapidly these days -- a major site, for instance, can be set up in 3 months and go public probably soon after (I don't know much about these things, actually), they move nearly as rapidly as artists used to move (inventing cubism over the course of a summer, for example), a contrast to how long it took to build the railroads. Obviously I'm not the first to notice this paradox or problem, but I was surprised at this event at how it was merely overlooked -- perhaps we have adapted so much beyond the old individual/institution (romantic) paradigm that there really isn't any adequate to describe the present situation with these terms, and no one cares to find new ones. I didn't know that Strasser set up the weak blood site, and I don't think of the site as a "failure" not seeming to fulfill certain promises that were suggested in the format -- it fulfilled other promises very well. So I guess it's "noble" in that way. Are their other similar projects where one could find a quick introduction to international web-poetry? I haven't caught much on the "antiorp" thread -- what's that? > I'm somewhat familiar with that work. Talanbooks published a handsome selection of that work about ten years ago, edited by McCaffery I think, after Nichol's death called Rational Geomancy. I wouldn't think it would be Rhizome territory, though I might be wrong. Yes, it's through this book that I know the work. I'm amused by your phrase "I wouldn't think it would be Rhizome territory" since implicit in the idea of the "rhizome" is that pretty much everything is in the same territory, you just have to find out how. You're probably right, though, I wouldn't guess that there are many on that list familiar with the work, but a familiarity with it might help shatter this print (passe)/web (present) assumption that underlies, again, much of the attitudes that I hear at places like the Rhizome event or other web events I've been too. I think the TRG work, or McCaffery's work in particular, is more successful than you suggest when writing that it seemed more the "application of theory" than work -- check out Evoba, one of my favorite short works, or Panopticon or the poems in Theory of Sediment. His early "concrete" epic is presently at the Coach House Books site (www.chbooks.com) -- it's called Carnival. > The machine, small and large, is corporate or governmental in its construction. We can then be pirates and anti corporate netizens should we please. But we are faced nonetheless with our place in a collective undertaking that involves the corporate and the non human at many levels. This should not be unexamined. And how can one be other than ambivalent about it, regardless of the choice you make? Yes, this relates to what I wrote above. How effective a pirate is one, however, having been feted with high paychecks your entire life (the "bohemian" artists I survive among here in Williamsburg, for example, make their money in large doses at a time, once a month or so often, on large projects sponsored by businesses, and hence live better than me who work a 9-5 slug job -- could they give that up? Would they ever have too? This isn't to totalize the situation -- their are many different types here, and I'm being really reductive -- but I wonder if this influx of money, which is part of the art world in general, effects one's selective blindness to these issues. And I also wonder why they seem to be blind to the idea that poets are not antiquated figures who are "missing the point" of technology -- I wonder if the problem is that poetry has long since lost its connection to public utility, or when it does connect it is very selectively so, as a sort of calming agent for bourgeois lifestyles. > Ted Warnell's work (http://www.warnell.com). He uses Windows 3.11 and no plugins and an intelligent modicum of javascript. He's very fond of Photoshop though--and uses it with great skill and effect. But primarily his work is in the HTML itself, not the bitmaps, which is very unusual (to do it well). I mean his visual works are made primarily of HTML. That is his primary material. He posted a note today thanking another poet for posting a work he could surf without having to upgrade his system or installing any plugins. A quiet note of protest or possibly exasperation. His material is largely HTML. He doesn't need plugins. Or he has chosen his material to avoid plugins? Or what? Is his art somehow more pure or unsullied by the corporate by virtue of this? Although the question may have something to it, at this point I look to the art itself, not so much what it was made with, though some work on the Web is incompetent enough that it shouts Flash or Photoshop or whatever. I don't have anything at all against plug-ins. The time will come when plug-ins will just install silently behind the browser as the page comes up -- it often does, already. People can program their own plug-ins too -- they just seem a distraction now because of download time. But I'm very interested in Warnell limiting himself to a few basic tools to create his art, it means he carries out a more intensive investigation based on a few premises. One of my favorite pieces of web art uses just HTML in fixed-length font, this being Juliet Martin's piece at www.ubu.com. Wait, here's the URL: http://www.ubu.com/contemp/martin/martin.html This still strikes me as a superb piece, and I know she's working slowly on other things. It's one of the first things that struck me as not being threatened with being "dated" over time -- hence the virtues of avoiding the "latest technology." It's also utterly useless for business, there isn't a single image in the piece, and the cleanness of the concept along with the overriding metaphor, whatever that is in fact (it's called "oooxxxooo"), that quietly hums in the background, is very satisfying to think about. It's something of a "hypertext" fiction, though much better than any of those fictions that I've read online that involve prose. Anyway, again, she limits herself to a set of tools and carries through on the promises. I haven't looked enough at the Warnell stuff, but I remember liking much of it, just conerned that the pieces were a little too self-contained, too static, not using the aspect of the web-page having several layers beneath its surface, of the possibility of true change within it, the layers of links and associations that, like lava below the surface, forcibly recreates the work each time you see it. I have similar misgivings with Strasser's pieces, incredibly effective as they are. I think Warnell's pieces, though, are pretty successful, as they follow through on the promise of gallery-type art getting off the walls and into the homes, and escaping the fetishism of the unique art object, and of exploring how digital imagery -- the types of disruption peculiar to pixelated photographs -- affects the way one sees. > I never connected strongly with concrete poetry. Part of the 'platform', after all, was to create parallelism between the look and the meaning, simple mindedly mimetic, often, was it not? Yes, I agree. I think, still, though, that the Brazilians have/had a lot to offer but we don't understand the frame of these creations enough -- as an attempt at an international art, a dialogue that transcends language which is particularly useful for a young country (or young literature), as a series of values conveyed thorugh typeface (certain faces suggesting utopian attitudes, certain nostalgic romantic) which had particular meanings in Brazilian culture at the time, etc. Haroldo De Campos has extended all of these issues in ways that have to be "translated" like any poetry. In any case, I wish there was a good study of Brazilian concrete in particular apart from the "international" movement which seems, in general, simplistic. The problem is the cost of getting these books out. > Doubt: you extend your arm to draw and see a metal claw. Yes. I see it often, and now it ends in a "mouse." Anyway, gotta run. Thanks for the links -- I've seen most of those already, and liked the one, especially, that slides down the page. The sound piece is interesting, too, hope you do more. You should check out the Macromedia site, there's a pretty good sound piece out there that uses the metaphor of a surgeon using a pick on a person's spinal column to produce sounds from, I suppose, the _inside_. It's for some site that makes music sequencers. If I find the URL I'll send it on. I have one work in Director which I'd like to finish this weekend. I'd tell you about it but it's already 10am and I want to enjoy my freezing cold apartment on this Saturday. Going to see Mark Wallace and Buck Downs read today at Double Happiness, and then to the "Shark" party. Anyway, cheers, Brian ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 15:49:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Craft, Critique, Culture / banash MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was requested that I forward this message to the list. Queries should be directed to the sender, d. banash. Chris ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 8:55 PM -0600 From: "d. banash" Subject: Craft, Critique, Culture Dear Poetics List-Owners, Below you will find a call for papers for a conference on writing (with a special emphasis on poetics and poetry) to be held at the University of Iowa. I believe that this conference would be of special interest to the members of your list. Would it be possible for you to post this? If you have and questions or concerns, please let me know. I look forward to your reply. --David Banash Call for Papers CRAFT, CRITIQUE, CULTURE: An Interdisciplinary Conference on Writing in the Academy September 29-October 1, 2000 University of Iowa Iowa City, Iowa Keynote speakers will include: Bob Perelman, professor of English at the University of Pennsylvania and author of more than ten books of poetry, including _Ten to One_, _The Future of Memory_, and _Virtual Reality_, as well as two books of criticism, _The Marginalization of Poetry: Language Writing and Literary History_ and _The Trouble with Genius: Reading Pound, Joyce, Stein, and Zukofsky_. Mark Levine, professor of Creative Writing at the Iowa Writers Workshop. Prof. Levine is the author of two books of poetry, _Enola Gay_ and _Debt_, and also writes feature journalism for _The New Yorker_ and other magazines. CRAFT, CRITIQUE, CULTURE is an interdisciplinary conference which aims to explore the divisions between craft and critique in academic institutions. Where and when are these divisions justified and useful, and when are they specious and harmful? How and where can they be broken down, and where should they be preserved? How do they function to construct both powerful positions and limited horizons? How should we understand and negotiate this divide, and how do we communicate across it? And finally, what is the role of craft and critique in relation to culture? What is the future of aesthetic analysis and production in the field of cultural studies? The goal of this conference is to provide a space to discuss and debate these questions. This conference invites scholars from a range of disciplines, including poets, writers, literary critics, teachers, non-fiction essayists, theorists, culturalists, art historians, as well as visual and performing artists. We welcome completed papers (15 page maximum), abstracts (200 words or less), or panel proposals which explore the complex and agonistic relationships between craft and critique. We also encourage brief proposals for performative and interactive panels that exceed or evade the familiar academic structures--including, but not limited to, dramatic or visual presentations, readings of original works of prose or poetry, interactive investigations, and short analyses related to the topics of the conference. In addition to these presentations, we will host a series of round-table discussions between professors, artists, and graduate students to investigate the way artists and critics communicate, collaborate, and coexist within the university; as well as the way artists read critics, the way critics read artists, and the ways in which we might more productively read one another. Possible topics include, but are not limited to: * The role of aesthetic analysis in contemporary criticism and cultural studies * Examining the craft, style, and performative aspects of critical theory * Historicizing the poet-critic divide * Critics representations of writers / writers characterizations of critics * Parallel discourses in English departments and creative writing workshops * Academic publishing: bridging academic and popular audiences * The writer as genius versus the writer as assemblage * Writing and identity * The pleasure of reading (in the academy?) * Pedagogical issues: the role of aesthetic appreciation in the classroom Selected papers will be published in the _Iowa Review_. Please submit papers, abstracts, or proposals by JUNE 15, 2000 to: David Banash and Anthony Enns Department of English 308 English-Philosophy Bldg. University of Iowa Iowa City, IA 52242-1492 david-banash@uiowa.edu anthony-enns@uiowa.edu Electronic submissions are strongly encouraged. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1990 00:32:28 -0500 Reply-To: Brian Stefans Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Stefans Subject: To Kent Johnson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had written this to Kent as a "backchannel" and he asked me to post it to the list. I haven't rewritten it, so please skip the tedious parts. He had cc'd me on the post. *** Hi Kent, Thanks for sending me the URL, it saves me the trouble of trying to get a copy of Skanky Possum, though I may anyway for the other stuff. I rarely "backchannel" unless it's to perhaps apologize to someone for having written hastily and heatedly, or to address some issue (like with Henry) which someone raised with me. If I am upset about something on the list, I try to convert my feelings into some sort of "productive" post rather than rag on someone behind the scenes to calm my aching soul -- which is to say, I don't particularly care about my own ideas or how they have been changed, interpreted, perverted, admired, etc, in a vacuum. The only reason I write to the list is to be share ideas, not to circumbscribe, for myself, my own ideas, which I can do alone. My hope is that my ideas will be attacked and turned-over, since I feel that I could be as bad a dictator as anyone. Anyway, I'm writing to you "backchannel" simply because I haven't, in my brief time reading on this issue (and mostly your writing on it, though others as well) seen any development in thinking about this, and so in general don't think it's valuable for the list. I think I have (eh hem) things to write on the topic, but I'm pretty well aware that they are boring to other people, and I hate to bore people. My problems with your reasoning, though, in your posts to Chris (who, I think, says about everything I would want to say, and even boldly with his full frontal statement that the list is "ideological") are basically the following: 1. Your use of the word "censorship" is misguided. "Censorship," for it to carry the moral weight that you intend it to, for it to be tied to some sort of contract of the "rights of man" that is at the heart of our Consitution (certainly the subtext of your rhetorical use of the word), and for it to resonate with the use of this term historically in regards to revolutionary activity, requires some sense of the totality of the control by authorities, which is to say these authorities would have to be "managing" _all_ of dissemination of media in a particular, isolated location. An illustration: we generally champion Dostoyevsky for having written under "conditions of censorship" (i.e. everything that was published in Russia itself went to a censorship board) and to have utilized an array of rhetorical and narrative strategies to get some pretty unseemly and difficult ideas into the public (or at least literary) realm. However, such an activity, the work of utilizing these strategies, and hence to be a more subtle writer, seems not to have entered into the equation of those writers who seem to feel "censored" from the list -- quite the opposite, these writers become more self-contradictory and high-minded about their position, shuffle around abstract terms like "censorship", shout bloody murder, engage in really poor puns, enact every other sort of ploy to manipulate the "spectacle," etc. but little more. I think this is so because this is not a case of "censorship" as I recognize it; it is a case of "editing," and as editing cuts awfully close to being completely "open," for which it can be commended. If this were true censorship, like the kind of censorship that puts people in prison (like my friend, a Korean novelist who has spent the last 4 years in prison for a series of historical novels [historical because he knew they would be _censored_ if he placed them in the present time] he wrote years ago and for a visit to North Korea) and exiles (like my uncle, who hasn't been able to return to South Korea for his student activities), and if the writers were indeed representing or attempting to express a range of ideas that were of genuine use to a wide range of people for whom the writer felt sincere responsibility, then the writer would restrategize his/her methods, take stock of the situation, and act accordingly. To do anything less would only trivialize the value of one's discourse, not to mention to project the very lack of this sense of responsibility to others. In any case, I think you, whom I understand have a great interest in world affairs, do a disservice to those who don't have the luxury to cry "censorship" because they are not permitted to post on this, or any, list. You use of the word "censorship" in regards to this only exxagerates my sense of the banality of this issue. 2. You are careful to state that there is some sort of correspondence to what, in this case, Henry writes to the list, and the "ideological" line of the list, and yet you have never (nor has anyone else, far as I know) ever offered an observation of how Henry's views contradict the views you feel are stated on this list. With this bird's eye perspective -- the present looking on the past -- and with the archives there to be read and studied, I have never seen a description of how these forces were arrayed, what positions were adopted, how they grew, were constructed and destroyed, where they brought people. If Henry is so "passionate" a poet and thinker, then why, in rehashes of what happened last year (or whenever) have I never seen anything like a position adopted by Henry (or any of the poets mentioned) that was, itself, enough to get him "banned." The object of the controversy is always centered on this issue of "banishment" itself, never on the ideas. This leads me to suspect that there were no ideas, only gestures -- "flames" is what we call them in e-land -- the culminating one being leaving the list (or being banned from it, or whatever). And if there were ideas, I trust that I would have discovered them by now because these "banned" poets would have utilized their brains to find other avenues through which to propagate them, of which there are many. I try to read everything I get in the mail, and get quite a lot. As we are all amateur anthropologists -- it's probably one of the defining traits of this particular generation of poets, a trait that we adopt, ironically, from the Language poets introduction of anthropological (usually read as post-Marxist or materialist, but more generally anthropological) methods in the reading of literary culture (an introduction which, I believe, was poorly executed, replete with blindnesses and biases which, I think, are causing some of the growing pains we are witnessing today, but which was totally necessary), we should perhaps take the next step and really consider in more detail how literary culture operates, considering our own biases (your use of proper names being one of them) disrupt whatever analytical framework (provisional as it may be) we are attempting to construct. If we don't care to construct a framework, that's fine, but then you are impotent to appeal to issues of "rights" and "censorship," which are words that have engaged the minds of people for centuries. I, myself, don't particularly care how literary culture operates, to be quite frank, or at least haven't found this subject to be more interesting than, say, artificial intelligence or Matthew Barney. Maybe it's because I live in New York and have the luxury of attending several readings a week, sometimes 2 or 3 a night if I wish (never), and even of holding a well-attended reading in my apartment, that I don't feel quite as handcuffed as you or others do about what happens on this list. Most of the poets that I correspond with on a regular basis are not on this list, and I feel conversations in bars and apartments are often more constructive, anyway, and more nuanced -- nobody can take advantage of you in these situations, you live on your wits, which is more exciting. (To go back to our regular bogeyman, WCW never had a list, only some rather soggy poet friends, and Pound in Europe, and if anything this isolation seems to have helped him.) Nonetheless, I think the list is a valuable compliment to these activities, since it offers an opportunity to work through several ideas in a somewhat organized fashion, and even to make mistakes on which people can pick and from which I and others can learn. Anyway, I had thought to post this to the list, actually, but I think I take up too much room there and I've failed once again to get my ideas in under a paragraph, so this is for your pleasure. I don't see why Henry or you don't just start up another list, since if these issues that you feel are being "banned" from the list are so valuable, and if Henry is the "passionate" poet you believe he is, then no doubt the energy and interest is there to make such a list thrive. I would encourage that, in fact, in the interest of "dialectic" since that's how things happen, how ideas are created. I had more to write, but am getting rather tired. Hope this fragment of an idea makes sense. Take care, Brian I ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 21:14:53 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jill Stengel Subject: Re: gender / Introductions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi all, john lowther writes: > tom bell noted that in a book of psych essays "all of the women began their > piece by explaining their background, experience, credentials, and/or > education. This was not true of the men." then asked "Is this a singular > phenomenon in psychology or is it also true of literature?" (then) > to add more inconclusive anecdotal data : when we had a reading here in town > for the group here all of the women reading (3 of the 4 in the group) made some > sort of introduction, either to their work or giving some account of their interactions > or introduction to the group ---- one of the 6 guys reading made such introductions yes it's true in lit, in every field, and the above "inconclusive" evidence is not inconclusive to me... (note, in the following here "men" especially equals dominant culture i.e. white men, esp middle-class-on-up white men, but not necessarily exclusively; and, this doesn't apply to ALL men, of course, but is a general overview of the situation...and here i am explaining and contextualizing, feeling a need to protect myself before i even say what i have to say) (which is SO OBVIOUS to so many people, and SO FOREIGN to many as well) (but how would you know if you didn't _need_ to know?) (so thank you for asking, all you who _are_ asking, and thanks for being open, i hope, to what the answers are...) (have i protected and disappeared myself enough inside these parentheses...) 1. it has been said that men expect to be understood, don't expect to be questioned; whereas women expect to be questioned, can't assume they'll be understood/trusted. (often women who DO have credentials etc are still treated like dodos--yes, punning on both stupid and dead.) 2. it has been said that women tend to connect things, contextualize, and men compartmentalize, separate, see things as distinct and unrelated. (if i hear "that has nothing to do with it" one more time...well, i'll...i'll...i'll explain how it does. or "that's beside the point"--well, beside the point may well still be _part_ of the point, depending on just how big a thing we're talking about.) 3. might makes right...right? (pppbbbttt, or the sound my tongue makes here) (men have defined culture and experience for centuries. why shd they suddenly have to explain where they fit into the structure when they ARE the structure?) 4. a joke a friend recently emailed to me: two students, a man and a woman, were asked to punctuate a sentence a teacher put on the chalkboard in english class: "woman without man is incomplete" the male student's response: "woman, without man, is incomplete" the female student's response: "woman: without, man is incomplete" xxoo, jill stengel ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:19:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Goethe-Institut Reception Subject: Literary Event Comments: To: "ANNOUNCE CULTURAL EVENTS @ GOETHE-INSTITUT" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Literary Series Event next week: Zentrifugal, Bastian Böttcher with Loris Negro and Paul Stoecker Tue, 29 Feb, 8 p.m.: Intersection for the Arts NOTE LOCATION: 446 Valencia St., San Francisco Bestowed with the title "German Poetry Slam King of 1997" Boettcher is a pioneer of German Rap poetry. He reads and performs with his ensemble, Zentrifugal. Presented in association with Goethe-Institut San Francisco. $5 suggested donation For more information, please go to http://www.goethe.de/uk/saf/calev2.htm Goethe-Institut San Francisco 530 Bush Street San Francisco, CA 94108 Phone: 415 263-8760 Fax: 415 391-8715 http://www/goethe.de/sanfrancisco ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:30:36 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jill Stengel Subject: Re: that pesky Shape of Time MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit judy roitman writes: > I'm curious about how people --- the audience, so to speak --- actually > perceive things like this. Do their linear habits override everything? > How do people learn to break such habits? How can the work teach them? > > (and yes I know the answers depend on "which people?" which doesn't stop me > from being curious) hi judy-- i don't know the answers to your questions, unfortunately. people mostly respond, mostly positively, to the pieces, usually engaging with them in some sort of manner...tho there was the one person who walked by the mobile and whacked it with an unconcerned shoulder...now that's interaction! some people don't know how to _discover_ and want things to be "in order" for them in a readily-discernible manner. others like to open the cart's boxes randomly, walk around and around the mobile to see what there is to see...really it varies, as you expected... next time i show them i think i'll ask people more questions abt their experiences w/the projects after i've watched them look, circle, open, ignore... hope that answers some of your questions...and generates new ones... jill ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:48:35 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jill Stengel Subject: Re: that pesky Shape of Time MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit tom bell writes: > yes, new ideas, new vistas.The experiences you describe are also > available in the best web poetry pieces. tom, for me it's a little different w/a computer screen...i can't interact the same way w/a computer as i can w/a 3-d object. and the repetitive stress injuries i have and eyestrain i sometimes get also put a bit of a damper on comparing it w/2-d objects. to clarify, that's not to say that new ideas/new vistas _aren't_, as you said, "available in the best web poetry pieces." it's just not my preferred form of experiencing art/poetry/etc... because of my preferences and injuries, i tend to use my computer time primarily for for making 3-d printed objects (books, papers, etc), storing/retrieving data, and some correspondence, usually work/poetry-related. generally i know little abt web poetry pieces as i have a cap to the amt of time i can use a computer, and well i have a limited amt of time in my life too, and i'm behind on everything these days, except getting my books done. i know there are lots of announcements and site postings and etc for cool web poetry on the list, and usually i copy them and eventually delete them as i never have time to go to them. i'm interested in knowing if you'd send me your top 5 or 10 places to check out. ok, 5. not 10... backchannel or front. if not, well, maybe i'll just make a point of checking out some when i have time and this time coincides with websites magically appearing before me, as they so often do when i don't have time. thanks very much, jill stengel ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:57:54 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jill Stengel Subject: Re: Los desaparecidos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable found at "a web of on-line dictionaries" http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/rbeard/diction.html (mar 15 becomes yourDictionary.com ) desaparecido 1 (adj) (gen) missing; (especie: LAm) extinct; (Pol) kidnapped, missing; n=FAmero de muertos, heridos y ~s, number of dead, wounded and missing; 2 (nm/f) (Pol: LAm) kidnapped person, missing person. The Collins Concise Spanish Dictionary =A9 1998 HarperCollins Publishers ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 02:04:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Destroy, It Said: The Grave MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Destroy, It Said: The Grave : "\354" igrave : "\355" iacute : "\356" icircumflex : "\357" idiaeresis : "\321" Ntilde : "\361" ntilde : "\322" Ograve : "\323" Oacute : "\324" Ocircumflex : "\325" Otilde : "\326" Odiaeresis : "\362" ograve : "\363" oacute : "\364" ocircumflex : "\365" otilde : "\366" odiaeresis : "\331" Ugrave : "\332" Uacute : "\333" Ucircumflex : "\334" Udiaeresis : "\334" Udiaeresis : "\371" ugrave : "\372" uacute : "\373" ucircumflex method ItemListing destructor {} { if $slot(mainwindow) { destroy . } else { destroy .$self } } create-hook alarm-fire malloc: top chunk is corrupt free(): invalid pointer %p! realloc(): invalid pointer %p! memory is consistent, library is buggy memory clobbered before allocated block memory clobbered past end of allocated block block freed twice memory exhausted dead_grave it said ____________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 02:58:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Claire Dinsmore Organization: Studio Cleo Subject: Re: gender / Introductions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit obviously: women are well aware that society does not substantiate them, and so feel they must 'prove' themselves/that they've been legitimized by this mans' world. did you really just notice this? i think feminism might have something to do with it ... analogous to women having to work twice as hard to get half the notice. No, alas, we haven't come very far ... C -- "What am I, if not a collector of vanished gazes?" - Theo Angelopoulos http://www.StudioCleo.com/entrancehall.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:42:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Disappearances (or: the humor of Cultural Capital) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The title of my post was "los desaparecidos", not "los desaparicidos" or "los desaparacidos", as Tal alternately has it. (A small thing, yes, and my apologies if her wayward vowels were innocent typos, but before she writes any more tickets on the term, Officer Tal may wish to make a note of the politically-correct spelling.) Which is not to say that Tal is not right in her general definition of the phrase, as no doubt everyone on this List knows : "los desaparecidos" famously refers to real or suspected dissidents grabbed by death squads and government forces and never seen again. Having lived and worked in two different countries during times when the practice was fairly rampant, and having spent a number of active years in the Central America solidarity movement during the 80's, I am well aware of the term's meaning and force. So, yes, in that my immediate reference was to an aspect of this List's history, I was, indeed, using it in the heavily figurative and ironic sense. Specifically, I was alluding to those whose voices have been (translated carefully now into English) disappeared from the List for reasons not yet honestly acknowledged or explained (i.e. those former "contrarious" participants who have been denied access to the moderated post-'98 version). And I was alluding, as well, to the obvious and embarrassing "disappearance," among many of the self-proclaimed democrats and progressives here, of any will to question this selective, strategic silencing. Yes, the stakes on a poetry Listserv don't exactly compare to those in late-70's Argentina. That's a no-brainer. But it sure is interesting how --both here in virtuality and there in the midst of dirty war-- those who ask where the bodies are and why invariably get called "paranoid" by Good Citizens with curling lips. Kent --------------------------------------------- I find Kent Johnson expressions of paranoia not only tiresome but in extremely poor taste. "Los desaparicidos" is the term used for folks murdered by right-wing death squads and buried in ditches. Seeing those words appropriated to describe the alleged virtual hounding of the likes of Henry Gould makes my stomach turn and my lip curl the same way it did when Clarence Thomas claimed he was the victim of a "lynching." It's a rhetorical device of the lowest sort, and not in the slightest bit amusing (to me) even if intended as irony. Which brings me to Gerald Schwartz' question about the perception of humor. Comedy is all a matter of perspective. Tadeusz Borowski wrote stories about the Holocaust that made me both laugh and cry; I resonate to them and find them funny in the most painful way. On the other hand, the old riddle about the difference between a Jew and a pizza hits me at about the same level as Johnson's use of "los desaparacidos". As we were all instructed back in kindergarten: it's the difference between laughing *with* and laughing *at*. Not really that hard a concept to grasp. Seems like just about any joke can be understood in terms of the "we" and the "them" it creates. ------- End of forwarded message ------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:28:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: Where Did My Ass Go? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII for those in vancouver. kevin >Where Did My Ass Go?' > >Molly Starlight (Molly Morin) will read from her celebrated chapbook of >poems 'Where Did My Ass Go?', along with members of Shirley Sterling's >Creative Writing class at UBC, at the Longhouse on Monday, February 28, >2000 from 7 to 9 pm. > >Humble snacks will be served. > >Molly has received national attention for the title 'Where Did My Ass Go?' >Reform MP Inky Mark of Manitoba attacked the Canada Council for funding >'Where Did My Ass Go?' because the title does not reflect 'Canadian >values.' 'Where Did My Ass Go?' has been spoofed on Royal Canadian Air >Farce, This Hour Has 22 Minutes, and in the Vancouver Sun. > >Come out and listen for yourself and support the first First Nations >Creative Writing class at UBC's Longhouse! > > >777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777 >DREAMSPYRE, GIRL'S HUSH -- Sara Graefe, Blinding Light >Cinema, March 7th.( for International Women's Day) >LIFE AND A LOVER -- Natalie Meisner, Frederic Wood >Theatre, UBC, March 9th. >GOING DOWN SWINGING -- Billie Livingston, Vancouver >Public Library, March 26th. >WHERE DID MY ASS GO -- Molly Starlight, To Be Announced > >Seven Sisters Website: >http://www.chickpages.com/poetrypod/seven_sisters > >2000200020002000200020002000200020002000200020002000 > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:29:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Shoemaker Organization: Wake Forest University Subject: Re: THE POET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, it's sort of hard to separate "the poet" from "poetics" and "poetry," but how about Frank O'Hara's "Personism"? steve > > At 6:08 PM -0500 2/21/00, Mike Kelleher wrote: > >Hello POETizens, > > > >I am putting together a bibliography on the idea of THE POET and was > >wondering if people could point me to essays and passages and quotes by > >POETS and nonPOETS alike that attempt to identify what is called THE > >POET, or to define the role of THE POET or THE POET's relationship to > >society or a la Plato to denigrate that role or identification, etc. > > > >I mean specifically THE POET and not POETry or POETics. > > > >Any backchannelled assistance would be much apurshiated. > > > >Kindly, > > > >Mike ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:15:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kirschenbaum Subject: Boog NYC pub party-E. Berrigan and Sharma Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Leap into Eddie Berrigan and Prageeta Sharma reading from their new Boog books, Life and A Just-So Poem, respectively. With music from Imaginary Numbers (featuring Fatstick editor James Wilk, ex-Pen Pal) Tuesday Feb. 29, 2000, 9pm sharp C-Note 157 Avenue C (10th St.)., NYC Directions: L or F to 1st Avenue or 6 to Astor Place. $3 cover. Info: 212-206-8899 booglit@excite.com PLEASE FORWARD, thanks, David K. _______________________________________________________ Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit http://freeworld.excite.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:21:16 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Re: Los desaparecidos & humor In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 2:20 PM -0700 2/19/00, Kali Tal wrote: >I find Kent Johnson expressions of paranoia not only tiresome but in >extremely poor taste. "Los desaparicidos" is the term used for folks >murdered by right-wing death squads and buried in ditches. Seeing >those words appropriated to describe the alleged virtual hounding of >the likes of Henry Gould makes my stomach turn and my lip curl the >same way it did when Clarence Thomas claimed he was the victim of a >"lynching." Glad to see that Kali and I are on the same side of an issue. Since my "confusion" has become an issue here, I must say that I have a nagging doubt about Henry Gould's existence, after the Kent Johnson/Yasusada stuff and all. I'm assuming that Henry is indeed a flesh and blood person, that others on the list have seen him, talked to him? Freedom of speech versus verbal abuse/censorship versus protection of others--the lines of demarcation are sloppy and there will never be any agreement here. And I should add that in a past message I wasn't intending to attack Elizabeth Treadwell. If it sounded that way, please forgive my oafish email style. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 13:24:56 -0600 Reply-To: Camille Martin Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Camille Martin Subject: email for Peter Ganick? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Could someone please backchannel the current email address for Peter Ganick/potepoetzine? I tried but the message bounces back. many thanks, Camille Martin 7725 Cohn St. New Orleans, LA 70118 (504) 861-8832 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:45:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Kelley Subject: Request for submissions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Orpheus_grid_ is looking for submissions. In the past, OG has published work by Standard Schaefer, Michelle Murphy, Will Alexander, Andrew Joron, Barbara Mor, Stephen-Paul Martin... Send hardcopy submissions to: John Noto Vatic Hum Press PO Box 420803 San Francisco, CA 94142-0803 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 04:24:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII -- I am the psychotherapist. Please, describe your problems. Each time you are finished talking, type RET twice. we are together in this place i want to scratch and claw my face i want to tear this skin from bone i want to travel kill and roam to want is fury and to take to kill the want so peace to make if peace is made my hands are clean in this dead world men are obscene health doctor is for you not me my life won't end so peacefully i want to scratch those violent eyes that tend to catch me by surprise i take my nails against my face my eyes shall never have a place there are no plans no homes no love my eyes are gouged and blind above love can't been seen so that my eyes have seen the last of human skies i cannot tell and cannot speak i am the purest of the meek i am the purest of the mind i've left my sight and love behind behind this world and any other behind all humans and their bothers i want to tear away the clothes and mask that covers us, no easy task i wanted to almost from birth when i could see the filthy earth i stormed myself and everyone at first with rocks and then with guns my life is gone, there's nothing left of all my senses, sight's bereft my friends were taken by surprise i took my love, gave them my eyes so many weapons, doctor, here, i'm stopping here, be of no fear ___ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 12:38:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: announcements Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" At the Poetry Project next week: Monday, Feb. 28th at 8 pm Lila Zemborain & Greta Goetz Lila Zemborain is the author of two books of poetry, Abrete sesamo debajo del agua, and Usted, both from Ediciones Ultimo Reino, Buenos Aires, and two chapbooks, Germinar and Ardores. She is presently working on English translations of some of her work with Rosa Alcala. Greta Goetz has recently moved to NYC from Hong Kong. Her poems have appeared in The Hat, and she is a graduate of Columbia University. Wednesday, March 1st at 8 pm The French Poetry Festival The kick-off event for this multivenue festival of French Poetry (for the full schedule of events, go to http://www.info-france-usa.org/culture/poetryfestival). Reading in French will be Jacques Roubaud, Abdellatif Laabi, Emmanuel Hocquard, and Franck Andre Jamme. English translations will be read by Rosmarie and Keith Waldrop, Ray Di Palma, and Marcella Durand. A reception will follow. Also free chapbooks by Abdellatif Laabi and Franck Andre Jamme will be available!!! Sure to be a GRAND FETE for all! Co-sponsored by the Cultural Service of the French Embassy and the French Ministry of Foreign Affairs. No reading Friday! ****** Public Service Announcements *tonight*tonight*tonight* Put on THE HAT at Poetry City. Quothe Jordan Davis: "The event takes place ... 7 pm at the offices of Teachers & Writers Collaborative (5 Union Square West, 7th Floor). There will be readings by contributors, magazines for sale, and refreshments for all." This Friday, Feb. 25th at 7 pm Wendy Kramer and Erica Hunt at Belladonna Bluestockings Women's Bookstore, 172 Allen St. between Rivington & Stanton And don't forget Brenda Coultas & Jeni Olin this Saturday at Double Happiness 4 pm, 173 Mott, below the Fish (who, according to Douglas, forecast the reading--a sort of piscine barometer) Tuesday, Feb. 29th at 9 pm "sharp," Eddie Berrigan and Prageeta Sharma read from their new chapbooks by BOOG, with musical entertainment by Imaginary Numbers (of which we believe James Wilk is a member), at C-Note, 157 Avenue C (10th St.). ******* Political Excitement I am a genius, and my famous liver is more than wondrous. I claim spawnage from water, flour and awkwardness. My mental equipment is ephemeral and splenetic, and I will reveal more liver later. I will be tender, yet contemptuous. --Sharon Mesmer, from THE EMPTY QUARTER. ******** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 13:22:25 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jill Stengel Subject: sf reading march 12 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable synapse: second sundays at blue bar --presents-- lytle shaw and t. l. alexandria volk march 12, 2000 2 p.m. $2 (goes to readers) blue bar is at 501 broadway, at kearney, in sf enter thru black cat restaurant, same address Lytle Shaw grew up in Ithaca, New York; studied architecture and literature=20 at Cornell University; then attended UC Berkeley, where he is completing a=20 dissertation on Frank O=E2=80=99Hara. Shaw=E2=80=99s chapbooks Flexagon (gho= s-ti-, 1998) and=20 The Rough Voice (Idiom, 1998) were done collaboratively with the artist=20 Emilie Clark, with whom he edits Shark, a journal of poetics and art writing= .=20 His other chapbooks are A Side of Closure (a+bend press, 2000), Low Level=20 Bureaucratic Structures: A Novel (Shark Books, 1998), and Principles of the=20 Emeryville Shellmound (Shark Books, 1998). His full-length poetry collection= =20 is Cable Factory 20 (atelos, 1999). Shaw currently lives in New York City. San Francisco writer and artist T. L. Alexandria Volk was raised on a ranch=20 in North Dakota. She has held numerous jobs, including tennis racquet=20 stringer, videographer, genetics lab instructor, and cow hand; and she has=20 survived 3=C2=BD independent film sets as costumer, make-up person, and art=20 director. She holds Bachelor degrees in Biology and Art from the University=20 of Dallas, and she is an MA and MFA candidate in the Poetics Program at New=20 College, where she teaches English composition and letterpress. Recent poetr= y=20 appears in Prosodia and Debt, and her new chapbook is The Carapace of Heaven= =20 (a+bend press, 2000). ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 13:25:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Help! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Everyone, Yet another request for help. I'm putting up a link list of webzines and other literary sites to accompany Readme #3, which will include a special feature devoted to webzine/litsite editors. The link list is currently housed at: http://www.jps.net/nada/litlink.htm and I'm desperately trying to gather more ... BUT NEED YOUR HELP!!! Please alert me to non-mainstream litsites & webzines (e.g., NOT Academy of American Poets) not currently included ... and don't be shy; if you run one, tell me about it (including the URL). Many kind thanks, Gary Sullivan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 15:12:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Kane Subject: John Yau on WriteNet Comments: To: writenet@twc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII John Yau talks about couplets, pop culture, and the value of weirdness. He reads his poem "Hoboken Palace Gardens." All this and so much more. Go to http://www.writenet.org/poetschat/poetschat_jyau.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 15:59:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: San Francisco Reading / Bouchard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message had to be reformatted. Chris -- Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 15:34:02 -0500 From: Daniel Bouchard <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< March 2000 @ Canessa Park Reading Series 708 Montgomery St. San Francisco CA Admission $5 Tuesday Night March 7th @ 7:30 pm Daniel Bouchard & Jill Stengel Daniel Bouchard lives in Cambridge, Mass. where he is a tenant organizer for the Eviction Free Zone. He is (with William Corbett and Joseph Torra) an editor of Pressed Wafer. "Diminutive Revolutions" (SubPress, 2000) is his first book. His poems have appeared in The Hat, Bivouac, and Mirage#4/Period(ical). Jill Stengel is a San Francisco poet, publisher, event organizer, occasional teacher, and sometimes visual artist. She currently hosts a monthly reading series at BlueBar in San Francisco, for which her a+bend press produces a companion chapbook series. Recent work can be found in _Poetry New York_, _Prosodia_, _WOOD_, and the anthology _Touched by Adoption_; and her chapbook is _history, possibilities :_. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:47:13 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Blair Seagram Subject: the poet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" robert lowell was rowing his boat toward a dock in Castine Maine, on which stood a man born and bred there. the man asked lowell what he did and lowell said he was a poet. to which the man replied "is there much call for poets these days?" At 6:08 PM -0500 2/21/00, Mike Kelleher wrote: >Hello POETizens, > >I am putting together a bibliography on the idea of THE POET and was >wondering if people could point me to essays and passages and quotes by >POETS and nonPOETS alike that attempt to identify what is called THE >POET, or to define the role of THE POET or THE POET's relationship to >society or a la Plato to denigrate that role or identification, etc. > >I mean specifically THE POET and not POETry or POETics. Blair Seagram 212 675-8628 www.bway.net/~blair ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:48:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Orange Subject: lee dejasu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII hi all, does anyone have information on lee dejasu, a verbal/visual artist who contributed to the 1975 feature in alcheringa? ron, maybe you do? much thanks, t. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 13:32:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dickison Subject: ** Ann Carson reading Thurs Feb 24 ** SF ** Comments: To: Tina Rotenberg Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ** Reservations recommended ** Call David Booth, 415-338-1527 ** daboo@sfsu.edu ** THE POETRY CENTER & AMERICAN POETRY ARCHIVES Presents ANNE CARSON Thursday February 24, 7:30 pm, $5 @ The Unitarian Center, 1187 Franklin (at Geary) A classics scholar thoroughly in touch with the subtleties of contemporary poetry, Anne Carson several years ago appeared with a brilliant work on the intimacies of classic Greek poetry, Eros the Bittersweet. * More recently, few books of contemporary poetry have enjoyed the audience afforded her "novel in verse," Autobiography of Red. * Her other works include Glass, Irony and God and Plainwater: Essays & Poems. * Ms. Carson is the visiting Holloway Lecturer at UC Berkeley this spring semester. * Her latest critical work, Economy of the Unlost, analyzes the poetics of Paul Celan and Simonides of Keos, and is just out from Princeton, and her opera installation-The Mirror of Simple Souls-can be viewed at www.ummu.umich.edu/projects/souls. * She lives in Montr=E9al, Qu=E9bec. * "Anne Carson is, for me, the most exciting poet writing in English today" -Michael Ondaatje =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Steve Dickison, Director The Poetry Center & American Poetry Archives ~ San Francisco State Univers= ity 1600 Holloway Avenue ~ San Francisco CA 94132 ~ 415-338-3401 ~ ~ ~ L=E2 taltazim h=E2latan, wal=E2kin durn b=EE-llay=E2ly kam=E2 tad=FBwru Don't cling to one state turn with the Nights, as they turn ~Maq=E2mat al-Hamadh=E2ni (tenth century; tr Stefania Pandolfo) ~ ~ ~ Bring all the art and science of the world, and baffle and humble it with one spear of grass. ~Walt Whitman's notebook ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 20:44:39 -0500 Reply-To: mytilij@dept.english.upenn.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mytili Jagannathan Subject: CRITICAL STYLE: CALL FOR RESPONSES/HOW2 n4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Poetics, I recently joined the list and have been following with interest the thread on gender and public speech. It seems to me a good moment to announce this Call for Responses to the Forum topic for HOW2/n4, on "Experimentation in Critical Style." If you'd like to take a look at the Forum currently featured on the HOW2 website-- issue 2 explores "Class and Innovative Writing"--you can point your browser at: http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/stadler_center/how2/current/index.html The forum questions for issue 4 follow below. I hope that many of you will contribute, and please pass the call on to others who might be interested. best, Mytili Jagannathan mytilij@english.upenn.edu * * * * * * * * * HOW2/n4 CALL FOR RESPONSES: EXPERIMENTATION AND CRITICAL STYLE For forum 4, Mytili Jagannathan and Elisabeth Joyce propose questions on stylistic experimentation in critical writing. Your email response is invited--from 1 paragraph to 2 pages in length--and, if selected for on-line inclusion, must be re/sent to the guest editors as an attached file, formatted in MAC/ Word 5.1. Responses should be addressed to and . ---------------------------------------------- Taking risks in critical writing often seems impermissible for those of us seeking jobs, tenure, promotion, and most telling, publication. At the same time, many of us are fascinated by more experimental forms of expression and desire to participate in critical writing that is more riveting, evocative, and boldly playful, making use of innovations that are not only permitted but often valorized in the poetry that we, as critics and readers, discuss. Given the extreme pressures to publish in academia, most writers in academic contexts feel compelled to conform to certain styles of writing, with their attention focused especially on the audience of reviewers who ultimately determine whether or not an article is eligible for publication in "juried" and traditionally targeted print journals. What are the risks and rewards of carrying the innovative project over into our forms of critical discourse? We are interested particularly in how this dilemma is experienced and negotiated by women in various stages of their professional and writing lives. What are the models of critical style available to us? Do women feel pressure to conform to certain styles in order to survive in this profession? If they do not, what makes it possible for them to write in another way? Is audience the determining factor for their style, and if so, how do they envision this audience? Is inclusion of the personal a taboo, an innovation, or has it been worn out by overuse? And, as importantly, how has the proliferation of online publications changed assumptions about public intellectual exchange, and transformed the parameters for critical dialogue? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 21:11:32 -0500 Reply-To: mytilij@dept.english.upenn.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mytili Jagannathan Subject: correction: CRITICAL STYLE: CALL FOR RESPONSES/HOW2 n4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi again-- I just realized I forgot to include the deadline for responses in my previous post. Here's the corrected call--please refer to and forward this version. Thanks. best, Mytili * * * * * * * * * HOW2/n4 CALL FOR RESPONSES: EXPERIMENTATION AND CRITICAL STYLE For forum 4, Mytili Jagannathan and Elisabeth Joyce propose questions on stylistic experimentation in critical writing. Your email response is invited--from 1 paragraph to 2 pages in length--and, if selected for on-line inclusion, must be re/sent to the guest editors as an attached file, formatted in MAC/ Word 5.1. Responses are due by April 10, 2000, and should be addressed to and . ---------------------------------------------- Taking risks in critical writing often seems impermissible for those of us seeking jobs, tenure, promotion, and most telling, publication. At the same time, many of us are fascinated by more experimental forms of expression and desire to participate in critical writing that is more riveting, evocative, and boldly playful, making use of innovations that are not only permitted but often valorized in the poetry that we, as critics and readers, discuss. Given the extreme pressures to publish in academia, most writers in academic contexts feel compelled to conform to certain styles of writing, with their attention focused especially on the audience of reviewers who ultimately determine whether or not an article is eligible for publication in "juried" and traditionally targeted print journals. What are the risks and rewards of carrying the innovative project over into our forms of critical discourse? We are interested particularly in how this dilemma is experienced and negotiated by women in various stages of their professional and writing lives. What are the models of critical style available to us? Do women feel pressure to conform to certain styles in order to survive in this profession? If they do not, what makes it possible for them to write in another way? Is audience the determining factor for their style, and if so, how do they envision this audience? Is inclusion of the personal a taboo, an innovation, or has it been worn out by overuse? And, as importantly, how has the proliferation of online publications changed assumptions about public intellectual exchange, and transformed the parameters for critical dialogue? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 10:28:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lance Fung Gallery, 537 Bway NYC 10012" Subject: Shigeko Kubota Opens March 2 Comments: To: ray@zzounds.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" GenevaFOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT LANCE FUNG (212) 334 6242 Kennilworthart.com S E X U A L H E A L I N G New Installation by S H I G E K O K U B O T A 2 March - 1 April at Lance Fung Gallery, 537 Broadway NYC Reception for the artist: Thursday, 2 March, 6 - 8 PM "Sexual Healing", a solo exhibition of new work by pioneering video and Fluxus artist, Shigeko Kubota opens March 2nd at Lance Fung Gallery. Through her seven new site-oriented video sculptures, Kubota continues to explore her interest in mortality and friendship. Moving to New York from Japan to join Fluxus, Shigeko Kubota crossed paths with the Father of Video Art, Nam June Paik, in the 1960's. Since then, they have supported eachother's work in Film and Video through frequent collaborations. Chief among these is "Allan 'n' Allen's Complaint," 1982. Although they were married in 1970, their rally to the introduction of sexual values in hi-art forms can be traced from Kubota's "Vagina Painting," 19 65, performed by Kubota, and Nam June Paik's "TV Bra," made renown by Charlotte Moorman. "Sexual Healing" continues Kubota's objective use of sexually charged content while documenting the everyday life she shares with her husband, Nam June Paik. Kubota has focussed all of her energy on the rehabilitation of her husband.since his stroke in 1996. In a loving homage she allows the art world to witness their unique relationship and its innovations and adaptations to life. Sculptures and industrial banisters set in the gallery are appropriations of objects that have proliferated the couple's home and workspace in real life. A funky hospital bed in a corner, an awkward wheelchair central to the space, a creation of a clinical hospital window, video flowers, sculptures of the artist and her husband proudly standing side by side, projections over the entire scene with colorful images of the pair engaged in daily activities, support a single channel video of Paik flirting with all of his young rehab therapists titled "Sexual Healing." Over the decades, Kubota has focussed her work on men who have greatly influenced her and have won her respect. Her Duchampiana series developed a critical homage to Marcel Duchamp during the 70's and 80's. Inaugurating Lance Fung Gallery's new space at 537 Broadway with a 1996 solo exhibition, Kubota took George Maciunas, her long time friend, as a focus of the exhibition because the space had originally been Maciunas's home. Kubota exhibited her own black and white video footage of Maciunas walking through SoHo in 1976 intercut with new color video of botanical sites. In Sexual Healing Kubota employs her customary balance of insight and objectification while executing a poignant yet touching homage to a great figure much closer to heart. Although the focus is on love and compassion between two people faced with a significant obstacle the exhibition escapes trivializing this situation, giving us a glimpse at the ingenuity and flexibility necessary to removing barriers within life and art.. Kubota offers this visionary duo's approach to art as an extension of healing. The concurrent retrospective of Nam June Paik's work on view at the uptown Guggenheim Museum in New York allows "Sexual Healing" a unique added dimension. _____________________________________________________________ Lance Fung Gallery 537 Broadway New York, New York 10012 Tel 212, 334, 6242 Fax 212, 966,0439 To be removed from our lists please submit a blank email with a subject ['remove'], including quotes to lfg@thing.net. If we have contacted you in error, our appologies. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 10:26:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Nielsen, Aldon" Subject: Fwd: Humor: Who Wants to be a Black Millionaire Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" a post from friend Yemi -- in what might be seen as a certain poetic genre -- >X-Sender: ytoure/pop.mindspring.com@127.0.0.1 >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 >Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 16:08:52 -0500 >To: ytoure@hotmail.com >From: yemi toure >Subject: Humor: Who Wants to be a Black Millionaire > >forwarded message >|||O|||///\\\///\\\\////\\\||||///\\\\////\\\///\\\|||O||| > >>For all those who have seen the show "Who Wants To Be A Millionaire", >>I'm sure you have wondered what the show would be like if it >>related to Black people. Well, here's your chance to play: >> >> WHO WANTS TO BE A BLACK MILLIONAIRE? >> >> $100 >> >> Someone who is jealous is often referred to as what? >> A. A Buster >> B. A Mark >> C. A Pimp >> D. A Player Hater >> >> $200 >> >> What substance is often found in a container on or near the >> stove? >> A. Pickles >> B. Used Grease >> C. Jalepeno Peppers >> D. Mayonnaise >> >> $300 >> >> How would you describe someone's skin when it is lacking >> moisture? >> A. Ashy >> B. Musty >> C. Flashy >> D. Musky >> >> $500 >> >> Which is not an official Kool-Aid flavor? >> A. Grape >> B. Red >> C. Pink Lemonade >> D. Orange >> >> $1000 >> >> Which civil rights leader can be found on the front of many >> church fans? >> A. Malcolm X >> B. Jesse Jackson >> C. Martin Luther King, Jr. >> D. Al Sharpton >> >> $2000 >> >> What hairstyle did the 80's duo Kid 'N Play popularize? >> A. Jheri Curl >> B. Finger Waves >> C. Dredlocks >> D. High Top Fade >> >> $4000 >> >> In the sitcom "Good Times", what incident prevented the >> character Keith from >> entering the NFL? >> A. Tripped over J.J. >> B. Shot in a gang fight >> C. Fell down a Cabrini Green elevator shaft >> D. Overdosed on heroin >> >> $8000 >> >> What actor starred in the 70's movie "Shaft"? >> A. Ron O'Neal >> B. Rudy Ray Moore >> C. Richard Roundtree >> D. Richard Pryor >> >> $16,000 >> >> Tupac Shakur's mother's first name is? >> A. Afeni >> B. Athena >> C. Assata >> D. Amel >> >> $32,000 >> >> What was the name of the best friend of the character Lamont >> on the sitcom >> "Sanford & Son"? >> A. Eight Ball >> B. Rollo >> C. Corn Bread >> D. Ray-Ray >> >> $50,000 >> >> Chris Rock's film debut was in which movie? >> A. Friday >> B. New Jack City >> C. I'm Gonna Git You Sucka >> D. Harlem Nights >> >> $100,000 >> >> What phrase was coined by W.E.B. DuBois? >> A. The Talented Tenth >> B. The Five Percent Nation >> C. Forty Acres and a Mule >> D. The Few, the Proud, the Brave >> >> $250,000 >> >> Who invented the stoplight? >> A. Thomas Edison >> B. Garrett Morgan >> C. Alexander Graham Bell >> D. Elijah McCoy >> >> $500,000 >> >> Which former Black Panther became a registered member of the >> Republican >> Party? >> A. Stokely Carmichael >> B. Bobby Rush >> C. Huey P. Newton >> D. Eldridge Cleaver >> >> $1,000,000 >> >> Which singer never recorded for Motown records? >> A. Aretha Franklin >> B. Diana Ross >> C. Tammy Terrell >> D. Martha Reeves >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Answers to Who Wants to be a Millionaire >> >> Key >> >> $100 = D >> >> $200 = B >> >> $300 = A >> >> $500 = B >> >> $1000 = C >> >> $2000 = D >> >> $4000 = A >> >> $8000 = C >> >> $16,000 = A >> >> $32,000 = B >> >> $50,000 = C >> >> $100,000 = A >> >> $250, 000 = B >> >> $500,000 = D >> >> $1,000,000 = A >> > > >|||O|||///\\\///\\\\ afrikan.net/hype ////\\\///\\\|||O||| ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:11:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: ReMap Query / baron MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message came to the administrative account. Chris ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Date: Tue, Feb 22, 2000 6:22 PM -0800 From: todd baron A query or two: In frustrating circumstance--ReMap may stop publishing. Now the reason being lack of interest --or apparent--by subscribers. Carolyn Kemp and I are most aware that this magazine --as many others--should be and is (has been) an act of generosity and dialoged poetics. We still seek to engage a dialogue regarding the poetics discussions started years ago (1989) at New College--but--feel lost. We've just published #7 (On LOVE) and besides the magazines we've sent out to writers and friends-- no one asks for any. NOR do we engender that dialogue we seek to--meaning-- poets do not write us or each other (at least not to our knowledge) regarding the work we publish. I'm posing a few questions to help us understand either where to go or "where to go"! 1) What poetics magazines are you currently reading AND subscribing to? 2) what defines an important or "needed" poetics magazine for you. 3) What purpose should/does a poetics magazine have? I know these should like "beginner's questions"--but they should be. After all, for Carolyn and I--we need reasons. yrs, Todd Baron Carolyn Kemp * * * ReMap ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:53:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: poetics list stats MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As irregularly sent out, these are statistics of Poetics List subscribership, organized by country. The usual disclaimers apply: namely, that the Listserv program attributes to any address that does not terminate in a country code (e.g., CA for Canada) U.S. origin. Chris Country Subscribers ------- ----------- Australia 14 Belgium 2 Canada 42 Finland 1 Germany 3 Great Britain 21 India 1 Ireland 5 Italy 1 Japan 5 New Zealand 14 Poland 1 Romania 1 Singapore 1 Spain 2 Sweden 4 Switzerland 2 Thailand 1 USA 677 Yugoslavia 1 ??? 1 Total number of users subscribed to the list: 801 Total number of countries represented: 21 (approx.) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:53:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Welcome Message revised 02-00 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Welcome to the Poetics List & The Electronic Poetry Center ..sponsored by The Poetics Program, Department of English, College of Arts & Science, the State University of New York, Buffalo /// Postal Address: Poetics Program, 438 Clemens Hall, SUNY Buffalo, NY 14260 Poetics List Moderator: Christopher W. Alexander Please address all inquiries to . Electronic Poetry Center: =3D Contents =3D 1. About the Poetics List 2. Subscriptions 3. Posting to the List 4. Format of Email Messages - PLEASE READ 5. Cautions 6. Digest Option 7. Temporarily turning off Poetics mail 8. "No Review" Policy 9. The Electronic Poetry Center (EPC) 10. Poetics Archives at EPC 11. Publishers & Editors Read This! ___________________________________________________________ Above the world-weary horizons New obstacles for exchange arise Or unfold, O ye postmasters! 1. About the Poetics List With the preceeding epigraph, the Poetics List was founded by Charles Bernstein in late 1993. Now in its second incarnation, the list carries over 800 subscribers worldwide, though all of these subscribers do not necessarily receive messages at any given time. A number of other people read the Poetics List via our web archives at the Electronic Poetry Center (see section 9 below). Please note that this is a private list and information about the list should not be posted to other lists or directories of lists. The idea is to keep the list to those with specific rather than general interests, and also to keep the scale of the list relatively small and the volume manageable. The Poetics List is a =3Dfully moderated=3D list. Due to the increasing number of subscribers, we are no longer able to maintain the open format with which the list began (at under 100 subscribers). All submissions are reviewed by the moderators in keeping with the goals of the list, as articulated in this Welcome Message. We remain committed to this editorial function as a defining element of the Poetics List. Our aim is to support, inform, and extend those directions in poetry that are committed to innovations, renovations, and investigations of form and/or/as content, to the questioning of received forms and styles, and to the creation of the otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, improbable, and impossible. For further information on posting to the list, see section 5 below. Publishers and series co-ordinators, see also section 10. In addition to being archived at the EPC, some posts to Poetics (especially reviews, obituary notices, announcements, etc.) may also become part of specific EPC subject areas. Brief reviews of poetry events and publications are always welcome. See section 7 for details. We recognize that other lists may sponsor other possibilities for exchange in this still-new medium. We request that those participating in this forum keep in mind the specialized and focussed nature of this project. For subscription information or to contact the editors, write to . ------------------- 2. Subscriptions Subscriptions to the Poetics List are free of charge, but formal registration is required. We ask that when you subscribe you provide your full name, street address, email address, and telephone number. All posts to the list should provide your full real name, as registered. If there is any discrepancy between your full name as it appears in the "from" line of the message header, please sign your post at the bottom. To subscribe to the Poetics List, please contact the editors at . Your message should include all of the required information. Please allow several days for your new or re-subscription to take effect. PLEASE NOTE: All subscription-related information and correspondence remains absolutely confidential. To unsubscribe, send this one-line message, with no "subject" line to : unsub poetics *If you are having difficulty unsubscribing, please note: sometimes your e-mail address may be changed slightly by your system administrator. If this happens you will not be able to send messages to Poetics or to unsubscribe, although you will continue to receive mail from the Poetics List. To avoid this problem, unsub using your old address, then return to your new address and send this one-line message, with no "subject" line to : sub poetics Phil Spillway Remember to replace "Phil Spillway" with your own name. If you find that it is not possible to unsub using your old address, please contact the editors at for assistance. *Eudora users: if your email address has been changed, you may still be able to unsubscribe without assistance. Go to the "Tools" menu in Eudora, select "Options" and then select setup for "Sending Mail": you may be able to temporarily substitute your old address here to send the unsub message. The most frequent problem with subscriptions is bounced messages. If your system is often down or if you have a low disk quota, Poetics messages may get bounced. Please try avoid having messages from the list returned to us. If the problem is low disk quota, you may wish to request an increased quota from your system administrator. (University subscribers may wish to argue that this subscription is part of your scholarly communication!) You might also consider obtaining a commercial account. In general, if a Poetics message is bounced from your account, your subscription to Poetics will be temporarily suspended. If this happens, you may re-subscribe to the list by contacting the list administrators at . All questions about subscriptions, whether about an individual subscription or subscription policy, should be addressed to the list's administrative address . Please note that it may take up to ten days, or more, for us to reply to messages. ------------------- 3. Posting to the List The Poetics List is a =3Dfully moderated=3D list. All messages are reviewed by the editors in keeping with the goals of the list as articulated in this Welcome Message (see section 1). Please note that while this list is primarily concerned with poetics, messages relating to politics and political activism, film, art, media, and so forth are also welcome. Feel free to query if you are uncertain as to whether a message is appropriate. All correspondence with the editors regarding submissions to the list remains confidential and should be directed to us at . We encourage subscribers to post information on publications and reading series that they have coordinated, edited, published, or in which they appear. Such announcements constitute a core function of this list. Also welcome are other sorts of news, e.g., event reports, obituaries, and reading lists (annotated or not). Queries may be posted to the list when deemed appropriate; if responses are received backchannel and are of interest to the list (i.e., if they are on topic), we suggest that the posting subscriber may wish to assemble "highlights" from respondents' messages to be published to the list. Solicited contributions (by subscribers or non-subscribers) may also appear on Poetics from time to time. The moderators reserve the right to contact any subscriber regarding possible contributions. Posts to the Poetics List should abide by the rules of "Fair Use" when quoting material for which the posting subscriber does not hold copyright. Please do not post to the list personal or "backchannel" correspondence, or other unpublished material, without the express permission of the author! If you want someone to send out information to the list as a whole, or supply information missing from an post, or want to thank someone for posting something you requested, please send the request or comment directly to that individual, and not to the list or to the list editors. In general, please use "common sense" when posting and keep in mind that your message, if forwarded, will be distributed to 800+ persons the world over. Send messages to the list directly to the list address: Please do not send messages intended for posting to the list to our administrative address . Like all machines, the listserver will sometimes be down: if you feel your message has been delayed or lost, *please wait at least one day to see if it shows up*, then check the archive to be sure the message is not posted there; if you still feel there is a problem, you may wish to contact the editors at . As an outside maximum, we will accept for publication to Poetics no more than 5 messages a day from any one subscriber; in general, we expect subscribers to keep their post to less than 10-15 posts per month. Our goal is a manageable list (manageable both for moderators and subscribers) of twenty or fewer messages per day. For further information or to contact the editors, please write to . ------------------- 4. Format of Email Messages - PLEASE READ When sending to the list, please send only "plain text". The use of "styled" text or HTML formatting in the body of messages sent to the list appears not to be compatible with the Listserv's automatic digest and archive features; as a result, inclusion of HTML tags disrupts the list archive and may have a similarly pernicious effect on the digest form of the list. Note, however, there is no problem with sending clickable URLs in HTML format. Microsoft Outlook and Netscape Communicator users take note! You may need to specify "plain text" or "ASCII text" or "text only" in the outgoing messages section of your application Preferences. Check your application's Edit | Preferences or Help menus for further details. Please do not send attachments or include extremely long documents (1,000+ words) in a post, since this may make it difficult for those who get the list via "digest" or who cannot decode attached or specially formatted files. Messages containing attachments will be presumed to be worm- or virus-carrying and will not be forwarded to the list. ------------------- 5. Cautions It may take up to a week or more to respond to your questions or to subscription requests or to handle any other editorial business or any nonautomated aspect of list maintenance. Submissions to the list should be in ASC-II (text-only) format and should contain NO HTML TAGS! HTML tags interfere with the automatic digest and archive functions of the listserv program, and will not be forwarded to the list. Subscribers using Microsoft Outlook, Netscape Communicator and like applications to manage their email service should check the "Preferences" or "Options" section of the program in question to be sure that HTML formatting options are disabled before posting to the list. Attachments may not be sent to the Poetics List. Messages containing attachments will be presumed to be worm- or virus- carrying and will not be forwarded to the list. Please do not publish list correspondence without the express permission of the author! Copyright for all material posted on Poetics remains with the author; material from this list and its archive may not be reproduced without the author's permission, beyond the standard rights accorded by "fair use." "Flame" messages will not be tolerated on the Poetics List. In this category are included messages gratuitously attacking fellow listees, also messages designed to "waste bandwidth" or cause the list to reach its daily limit. These messages are considered offensive and detrimental to list discussion. Please do not bother submitting such messages to the editor. Offending subscribers will receive only one warning message. Repeat offenders will be removed from the list immediately. Please do not put this policy to test! ------------------- 6. Digest Option The Listserve program gives you the option to receive all the posted Poetics message each day as a single message. If you would prefer to receive ONE message each day, which would include all messages posted to the list for that day, you can use the digest option. Send this one-line message, with no "subject" line to : set poetics digest You can switch back to individual messages by sending this message: set poetics mail NOTE!! Send these messages to "listserv" not to Poetics or as a reply to this Welcome Message!! ------------------- 7. Temporarily turning off Poetics mail Do not leave your Poetics subscription "active" if you are going to be away for any extended period of time! Your account may become flooded and you may lose not only Poetics messages but other important mail. You can temporarily turn off your Poetics subscription by sending this one-line message, with no "subject" line, to : set poetics nomail You may re-activate your poetics subscription by sending this one-line message, with no "subject" line, to the same address: set poetics mail When you return you can check or download missed postings from the Poetics archive. (See section 8 below.) ------------------- 8. "No Review" policy For the safety and security of list subscribers, the "review" function of the Poetics List has been de-activated. Non-posting subscribers' email addresses will remain confidential. Please do not ask the list editors to give out subscriber addresses or other personal information. ------------------- 9. What is the Electronic Poetry Center? The World Wide Web-based Electronic Poetry Center is located at . Our mission is to serve as a hypertextual gateway to the extraordinary range of activity in formally innovative writing in the United States and around the world. The Center provides access to the burgeoning electronic resources in new poetries including RIF/T and many other electronic poetry journals, the POETICS List archives, an AUTHOR library of electronic poetic texts and bibliographies, and direct connections to numerous related electronic RESOURCES. The Center also provides information about contemporary print little magazines and SMALL PRESSES engaged in poetry and poetics. And we have an extensive collection of soundfiles of poets reading their work, as well as the archive of LINEbreak, the radio interview series. The EPC is directed by Loss Peque=F1o Glazier. ------------------- 10. Poetics Archives at the EPC Go to the Electronic Poetry Center and select the "Poetics" link from the opening screen. Follow the links to Poetics Archives. Or set your browser to go directly to . You may browse the Poetics List archives by month and year or search them for specific information. Your interface will allow you to print or download any of these files. ------------------- 11. Publishers & Editors Read This! PUBLISHERS & EDITORS: The Electronic Poetry Center listings of poetry and poetics information is open and available to you. We are trying to make access to printed publications as easy as possible for our users and ENCOURAGE you to participate! Send a list of your press/publications to , with the words EPC Press Listing in the subject line. You may also send materials on disk. (Write file name, word processing program, and Mac or PC on disk.) Send an e-mail message to the address above to obtain a mailing address to which to send your disk. Though files marked up with html are our goal, ascii files are perfectly acceptable. If your word processor will save files in Rich Text Format (.rtf) this is also highly desirable. Send us extended information on new publications (including any back cover copy and sample poems) as well as complete catalogs or backlists (including excerpts from reviews, sample poems, etc.). Be sure to include full information for ordering--including prices and addresses and phone numbers both of the press and any distributors. You might also want to send short announcements of new publications directly to the Poetics List as subscribers do not always (or ever) check the EPC; in your message please include full information for ordering. If you have a fuller listing at EPC, you might also mention that in any Poetics posts. Some announcements circulated through Poetics and the EPC have received a noticeable responses; it may be an effective way to promote your publication and we are glad to facilitate information about interesting publications. ------------------- END OF POETICS LIST WELCOME MSG ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 18:52:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jamie Perez Subject: Re: gender / Introductions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jill Stengel wrote: > (note, in the following here "men" especially equals dominant culture i.e. > white men, esp middle-class-on-up white men, but not necessarily exclusively; > and, this doesn't apply to ALL men, of course, but is a general overview of > the situation...) I agree to some extent with a lot of what you say, especially the disclaimer. But, at the same time, I think the above disclaimer goes a far piece as well in what I think about. It would be interesting to know when people feel they are part of the "men" who have created/enjoyed this dominant culture (and people in this case wouldn't necessarily be only men, as you've brought up issues of race and class, which are prolly just as important here?). Much more often I think we (people, not men) have the feelings below... > 3. might makes right...right? (pppbbbttt, or the sound my tongue makes here) > (men have defined culture and experience for centuries. why shd they suddenly > have to explain where they fit into the structure when they ARE the > structure?) here I have a problem: "men have defined... why shd they..." I think as many a man feels ensnared in this "dominant" culture that has painted them into a set of roles and actions. I would say most men don't feel they are the alpha male all around and are often looking over their shoulder at that bigger fish that's gonna put them in their "place." (A man's place is working for/trying to please another man?) Men are no more free-ranging than women in "options," unless you look at a small subset of what they "can" do and exclude a whole other range of experience. I suppose one could look at another small subset of experience and show how free-ranging women are, but has anybody investigated this? > 4. a joke a friend recently emailed to me: two students, a man and a woman, > were asked to punctuate a sentence a teacher put on the chalkboard in english > class: "woman without man is incomplete" > the male student's response: "woman, without man, is incomplete" > the female student's response: "woman: without, man is incomplete" I just like this. Revise the joke in the future so that the man capitalizes "woman" and puts a period at the end of the sentence? jamie.p ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 19:38:29 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: review of Tardos's Uxudo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit anyone know the publishing details to this book? I just discovered this from november & have been meaning to ask.. juliana spahr wrote: > Reviews > From Publisher's Weekly - Publishers Weekly > Pan-European ex-pat artist and poet Tardos writes > here > in spliced together bits of Hungarian, German, French and English, but > the > pronunciation keys and other linguistic graphs she includes bespeak > precise > formulation rather than polyglot mish-mash. At its best, Uxudo--a word, > we're told, produced by computer error, and seemingly the only > non-"real" > word here--invites the reader into a world of fraught semantic and > phonologic echoes, an effect furthered by being grafted onto video > stills > (mainly of women at different stages of life) which repeat, along with > the > words, in serial alterations. As visual poems, they resemble French > Lettrism, with their clashing fonts and loose margins, engendering an > endearing, consciousness-like chaos. In one instance, a flurry of equal > signs shows the poet lost in equivalences--"quake = > tremblement = Beben = renges"--paradoxically less present in the text > when > giving us its code. Tardos's linguistic isolation is most pronounced > when > she is simply being herself: "Hochgeduld after nine from a fountain/ > Gekreuzung vielmehr, which is how it's done/ Neighboryly jolie bete/ > Give > it time, haromvaros." The words following this bit, "Afterimage = > Nachbild," as well as much else here, give the work an explicitly > post-WWII > cast, suggesting post-war Germany's and fascist Europe's often obsessive > attempts to find a usable past. Tardos's unique brand of multicultural > pathos reminds us that our most pressing issues of identity and empire > have > been around for many years, and in many guises. (Nov.) Copyright 1999 > Cahners Business Information. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 18:34:16 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: Re: gender / Introductions In-Reply-To: <38B5C43A.90EE6921@magnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> structure?) > >here I have a problem: "men have defined... why shd they..." I think as >many a man feels ensnared in this "dominant" culture that has painted >them into a set of roles and actions. I would say most men don't feel >they are the alpha male all around and are often looking over their >shoulder at that bigger fish that's gonna put them in their "place." (A >man's place is working for/trying to please another man?) Men are no >more free-ranging than women in "options," I agree with the author of the above, and would add to that, that a good deal of my energy in this lifetime has gone to attempting to dispel the miasma of malehood they pumped into my nursery and kept on pumping until little by little women--mostly women--pried a window up and started to clear matters up for me (and for themselves, and why not!). It requires a good deal of consciousness and i know i am unconscious most of the time. But I have attempted to show the other side not only to myself but to other men. And now I am glad that Jamie Perez also shows an _other_ side. In this question of gender roles, we all need all the help we can extend and receive. I welcome Jill Stengel's post and, like Jamie, find myself in substantial agreement with what she says. It has everything to do with poetry, which is the theory of heartbreak--which always stems from mistaken assumptions and inability to imagine how it looks from the other's standpoint. David ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 20:39:07 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: objectifying subjectivities Comments: To: i_wellman@dwc.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was hoping to be able to reply backchannel but never got my thoughts sufficiently organized - sorry. So here it is. I think we are basically in agreement, but what I was trying to get at with the Kristeva quote was [the importance of sujectivity] as a "signifying function [that is] refused by our culture by consigning it to the domain of art" and therefore of no consequence in our objective social world. This would then seem to me a call for subjectivity that comes out of the objectivity. As this is not my field I may well be missing some points along the way? D Wellman wrote: > > Concerning what Thomas Bell suggests re Krisyeva, I earlier send him the > following back-channel (typos corrected here). I offer it to all in hopes of > continuing the thread. > ............ > > Tom, thanks for the post. I almost added "Kristevan" rather than "DeLeuzian" > > to my message. She is surely one of the richest sites for mining > subjectivity, but I don't feel that here she does more than speak to the > value of relexivity in theory. ... and I guess I am arguing that reflexivity > > is precisely another name for "objectifying subjectivity." When she writes > of hunger and desire .... then she is very conscious breaking through > the loop of objectifying discourse. I do not consider object/subject as > polar, but as imbricated. perhaps with other factors in a fold. -- //\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\ OOOPSY \///\\\/\///\\\/ <><>,...,., WHOOPS J K JOVE BY HHH ZOOOOZ ZEUS'WRATHHTARW LLLL STOPG [ EMPTY ] SPACER index of online work at http://members.home.net/trbell essays: http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/criticism/gloom.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 20:24:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: derek beaulieu Subject: new from housepress - chapbooks from bruce andrews & lee wworden MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit housepress is pelased to announce the publication of 2 new chapbooks: "One candle with another candle: cut-up haiku" by lee worden - consisting of computer manipulated haiku, "one candle with anotehr candle" reconstructes classic haiku phrases & devices in new ways. - printed in an edition of 70 handbound and numbered copies. - $4.00ea. "Four Poems" by Bruce Andrews - word fragments, syllables and phrases loosed from thier moorings from the L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E poet - printed an edition of 60 handbound and numbered copies. - $5.00ea. all prices include shipping. for more information or to order, please contact derek beaulieu at: derek beaulieu 1339 19th ave nw calgary alberta canada t2m 1a5 housepre@telusplanet.net http://www.telusplanet.net/public/housepre ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 00:30:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Re: Request for submissions / baron MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message had to be reformatted. Chris -- Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 20:44:10 -0800 From: "todd baron" is what? sorry--mag or press? unfam. yrs, Todd Baron * * * ReMap ---------- From: Karen Kelley To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Request for submissions Date: Wed, Feb 23, 2000, 12:45 PM Orpheus_grid_ is looking for submissions. In the past, OG has published work by Standard Schaefer, Michelle Murphy, Will Alexander, Andrew Joron, Barbara Mor, Stephen-Paul Martin... Send hardcopy submissions to: John Noto Vatic Hum Press PO Box 420803 San Francisco, CA 94142-0803 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 21:42:21 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerrold Shiroma Subject: Re: review of Tardos's Uxudo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Was brought out by O Books. ----- Original Message ----- From: "mIEKAL aND" To: Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 5:38 PM Subject: Re: review of Tardos's Uxudo > anyone know the publishing details to this book? I just discovered this from > november & have been meaning to ask.. > > > juliana spahr wrote: > > > Reviews > > From Publisher's Weekly - Publishers Weekly > > Pan-European ex-pat artist and poet Tardos writes > > here > > in spliced together bits of Hungarian, German, French and English, but > > the > > pronunciation keys and other linguistic graphs she includes bespeak > > precise > > formulation rather than polyglot mish-mash. At its best, Uxudo--a word, > > we're told, produced by computer error, and seemingly the only > > non-"real" > > word here--invites the reader into a world of fraught semantic and > > phonologic echoes, an effect furthered by being grafted onto video > > stills > > (mainly of women at different stages of life) which repeat, along with > > the > > words, in serial alterations. As visual poems, they resemble French > > Lettrism, with their clashing fonts and loose margins, engendering an > > endearing, consciousness-like chaos. In one instance, a flurry of equal > > signs shows the poet lost in equivalences--"quake = > > tremblement = Beben = renges"--paradoxically less present in the text > > when > > giving us its code. Tardos's linguistic isolation is most pronounced > > when > > she is simply being herself: "Hochgeduld after nine from a fountain/ > > Gekreuzung vielmehr, which is how it's done/ Neighboryly jolie bete/ > > Give > > it time, haromvaros." The words following this bit, "Afterimage = > > Nachbild," as well as much else here, give the work an explicitly > > post-WWII > > cast, suggesting post-war Germany's and fascist Europe's often obsessive > > attempts to find a usable past. Tardos's unique brand of multicult ural > > pathos reminds us that our most pressing issues of identity and empire > > have > > been around for many years, and in many guises. (Nov.) Copyright 1999 > > Cahners Business Information. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 01:03:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: 3.1 DOS 1987, keystroke recording program MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII body, feeling itse way across the world, i watched and to the sill, cd mark dir sort < help > del[p sort < help > delp dir b delp del delp color dir o understanding. beauty of this world, keystrokes captured, dothis moment am breathless over a phenomenon i have no way of out of everything held to account, except the results - exit b ls wc zz b ls tail it was a stroke of mime, moving silently; what came through or shoving, the li b strokes b readme b read.me exit b x y yy qyb m dq dir looking at pressure. when i begnan, this rhym wasme wasn't seen on screen, but not before its white-hot strokes sent me that night to present, strokes of understanding, strokes of lightning love, keystrokes captured, the brilliant. ___ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 22:34:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Summi Kaipa Subject: Re: review of Tardos's Uxudo In-Reply-To: <000d01bf7f53$16c0a400$8014193f@u4q7n2> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Actually, If I'm not mistaken it's an joint publication venture : O Books/Tuumba But wouldn't swear away my first child on it . . . At 09:42 PM 2/24/00 -0800, you wrote: >Was brought out by O Books. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "mIEKAL aND" >To: >Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 5:38 PM >Subject: Re: review of Tardos's Uxudo > > > > anyone know the publishing details to this book? I just discovered >this from > > november & have been meaning to ask.. > > > > > > juliana spahr wrote: > > > > > Reviews > > > From Publisher's Weekly - Publishers Weekly > > > Pan-European ex-pat artist and poet Tardos >writes > > > here > > > in spliced together bits of Hungarian, German, French and English, >but > > > the > > > pronunciation keys and other linguistic graphs she includes >bespeak > > > precise > > > formulation rather than polyglot mish-mash. At its best, Uxudo--a >word, > > > we're told, produced by computer error, and seemingly the only > > > non-"real" > > > word here--invites the reader into a world of fraught semantic and > > > phonologic echoes, an effect furthered by being grafted onto video > > > stills > > > (mainly of women at different stages of life) which repeat, along >with > > > the > > > words, in serial alterations. As visual poems, they resemble >French > > > Lettrism, with their clashing fonts and loose margins, engendering >an > > > endearing, consciousness-like chaos. In one instance, a flurry of >equal > > > signs shows the poet lost in equivalences--"quake >= > > > tremblement = Beben = renges"--paradoxically less present in the >text > > > when > > > giving us its code. Tardos's linguistic isolation is most >pronounced > > > when > > > she is simply being herself: "Hochgeduld after nine from a >fountain/ > > > Gekreuzung vielmehr, which is how it's done/ Neighboryly jolie >bete/ > > > Give > > > it time, haromvaros." The words following this bit, "Afterimage = > > > Nachbild," as well as much else here, give the work an explicitly > > > post-WWII > > > cast, suggesting post-war Germany's and fascist Europe's often >obsessive > > > attempts to find a usable past. Tardos's unique brand of multicult >ural > > > pathos reminds us that our most pressing issues of identity and >empire > > > have > > > been around for many years, and in many guises. (Nov.) Copyright >1999 > > > Cahners Business Information. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 22:59:28 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Leonard Brink Subject: Re: ReMap Query / baron MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Todd: As you know, I've published Inscape (7 issues) for a couple of years now and that's withering on the vine for a lack of interest, too. It seems to me that when our readership is composed mainly of poets and other editors, those poets and editors expect to receive complimentary copies, and if a poet's work is not being published by a particular mag they may not see much point in subscribing to it because it isn't honoring the work that they're most interested in (their own). I also think that magazines like ReMap and Inscape, which are produced in a manner that is affordable for the publisher to make and distribute without much, if any ,additional support from the government or subscribers, are not as attractive to the poetry community as perfect bound journals which resemble commodities/commercial products of mass reproduction. And, if you'll permit me a personal observation, you solicited work from me for ReMap but never responded as to whether that work had been accepted or not. I know of another magazine, to which I was the 7th subscriber ever, signing up for a 3 year subscription, who similarly does not respond to solicited work or even send me the copies I paid for as a subscriber! So there's the matter of personal incompetence to consider when analyzing the eventual failure of a project. In the case of Inscape I've started a new, more narrowly focused, project taking this stuff into consideration. > >A query or two: > >In frustrating circumstance--ReMap may stop publishing. >Now the reason being lack of interest --or apparent--by subscribers. >Carolyn Kemp and I are most aware that this magazine --as many >others--should be and is (has been) an act of generosity and dialoged >poetics. We still seek to engage a dialogue regarding the poetics > discussions started years ago (1989) at New College--but--feel lost. > We've just published #7 (On LOVE) and besides the magazines we've sent >out to writers and friends-- no one asks for any. NOR do we engender that >dialogue we seek to--meaning-- poets do not write us or each other (at >least not to our knowledge) regarding the work we publish. > >I'm posing a few questions to help us understand either where to go or >"where to go"! > >1) What poetics magazines are you currently reading AND subscribing to? > >2) what defines an important or "needed" poetics magazine for you. > >3) What purpose should/does a poetics magazine have? > > > >I know these should like "beginner's questions"--but they should be. After >all, for Carolyn and I--we need reasons. > > >yrs, > >Todd Baron >Carolyn Kemp >* * * > >ReMap > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 00:51:19 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: remap gender Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" re todd baron: How bout a web site? I actually get orders and letters every now and then and actually more and more from my very lowtech one. 1) What poetics magazines are you currently reading AND subscribing to? Tripwire. Ixnay. Kenning. Poetry Project Newsletter. I think The Germ and the Hat, actually I think 6ix too. Chain's run out after a few years. Easily (comparatively at least) available at stores. 2) what defines an important or "needed" poetics magazine for you. interesting vital work (what a boring answer huh?). women (frankly if its more than half men i don't have the time). a decent design is nice too, however cheaply done. actually i find it kinda essential. re jamie perez: >here I have a problem: "men have defined... why shd they..." I think as >many a man feels ensnared in this "dominant" culture that has painted >them into a set of roles and actions. I would say most men don't feel >they are the alpha male all around and are often looking over their >shoulder at that bigger fish that's gonna put them in their "place." (A >man's place is working for/trying to please another man?) Men are no >more free-ranging than women in "options," unless you look at a small >subset of what they "can" do and exclude a whole other range of >experience. I suppose one could look at another small subset of >experience and show how free-ranging women are, but has anybody >investigated this? but seriously, haven't men defined it? women have influenced it perhaps, and maybe are even secretly ruling the world, right, yay. but did you know Sarah Fielding was more respected and more popular in her lifetime than her bro Henry? (source: Mothers of the Novel, Dale Spender) Does that count as disappeared? Censored? On any non-dead level? It is political, you won't change my mind there. And like, I dunno, have we HAD any girl presidents? I know men don't feel like god all the time, I do sometimes , etc. But that doesn't take care of the free-range or the f**ked up ness. I will find the thrilling quote from one of SF's novels to post here; I passed the book on...... How bout this for a title? THE FEMALE QUIXOTE (1752) by Charlotte Lennox. Rockin. ET ___________________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell Double Lucy Books & Outlet Magazine http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 04:12:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Keystroke Program MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Keystroke Program Diary note: "I also have written again with the old Compaq machine, using the program that registers keystrokes - it's fascinating watching a literal recording of actions, not corrected content (something like the interior of a ytalk conversation)." But it's more than that, it's a recording of muscle, of entries, not of results - it's the movement of the fingers on the keys, and that is all - it is the dance of phonemics, not the play of syntax or semantic flow. Literally, in other words, the body. So there is a double expression - that of the movement of language, and its interpretation, and that of the body laboring through sequences of entries. And here, what could be more visible than the actions of the body? cd pcplus pcplus shell sondheim qls test test tf test zz test ls test test man texst qls pico zz# And here, what could be more visible than the actions of the body? b ls cd .. dir b keys.dat keys.fix keysfix dir date >> keys.fix dir dir >> keys.fix exit del keys.fix There is a degree of hemming and hawing in human existence, shuttling back and forth - the final speech and its rationale are only a residue - even the breathing, coffee breaks, sighing, aren't recorded - not to mention the need for digestion, excretion, sleep above all - the keystroke program however is a first step - kinesic recording - each and every movement - each and every stroke - it doesn't like - it takes the poetry out of the poetry, product out of the product, prose out of the prose, theory out of the theory - it hints at a substrate - at least part of the substrate is brought to the surface - it's a kind of mimicry (i.e. it locks onto the product, it continues, abandons, the product) - these are the foundations - shifting themselves - exitat least part of the substrate is brought to the surface - it's a kind of mimicry (i.e. it locks onto the product, it continues, abandons, the product^b^fg) - these are the foundations - shifting themselves -^o^xb^ls^date^del keys.fix^rm keys.fix^y^wc zz^b^ ___ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 06:57:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: review of Tardos's Uxudo In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000224223356.009ba9e0@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" amazon.com says Anne Tardos's *Uxudo* is published by Atelos Press. charles At 10:34 PM 2/24/00 -0800, you wrote: >Actually, > >If I'm not mistaken it's an joint publication venture : O Books/Tuumba > >But wouldn't swear away my first child on it . . . ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 23:27:29 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerrold Shiroma Subject: Re: review of Tardos's Uxudo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My mistake. It is by O Books & Tuumba. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 23:46:09 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerrold Shiroma Subject: Re: ReMap Query / baron MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd, While I may not be answering your question directly (or at all), I have encountered many of the same problems with the duration chapbook series. Beyond the small handful of subscribers, & the freebies I send out, the response to the series is almost nil. Makes me wonder how many people are actually interested in what happens beyond our American poetic borders. In response, or in addition to your post, perhaps I should also post the questions: 1) What anthologies / collections / etc. of poetry in translation have you recently purchased. 2) Does the work of poets from other countries (specifically non-English speaking countries) have any importance to your own work. 3) What purpose does, or should, the publication of works in translation have, if any. I don't want to sound like I am complaining, but am feeling somewhat discouraged by the whole thing, & wonder if anyone actually cares for, or is interested in, works in translation. Bests, Jerrold ----- Original Message ----- From: "Poetics List" To: Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 1:11 PM Subject: ReMap Query / baron > This message came to the administrative account. Chris > > ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- > Date: Tue, Feb 22, 2000 6:22 PM -0800 > From: todd baron > > A query or two: > > In frustrating circumstance--ReMap may stop publishing. > Now the reason being lack of interest --or apparent--by subscribers. > Carolyn Kemp and I are most aware that this magazine --as many > others--should be and is (has been) an act of generosity and dialoged > poetics. We still seek to engage a dialogue regarding the poetics > discussions started years ago (1989) at New College--but--feel lost. > We've just published #7 (On LOVE) and besides the magazines we've sent > out to writers and friends-- no one asks for any. NOR do we engender that > dialogue we seek to--meaning-- poets do not write us or each other (at > least not to our knowledge) regarding the work we publish. > > I'm posing a few questions to help us understand either where to go or > "where to go"! > > 1) What poetics magazines are you currently reading AND subscribing to? > > 2) what defines an important or "needed" poetics magazine for you. > > 3) What purpose should/does a poetics magazine have? > > > > I know these should like "beginner's questions"--but they should be. After > all, for Carolyn and I--we need reasons. > > > yrs, > > Todd Baron > Carolyn Kemp > * * * > > ReMap ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 00:05:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: "Cyberpoetry" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The issue you raise concerning artists doing multi-media for corporations by day and then doing net.art by night is an interesting one. Carl Stalling did the sound/music for the Warner Bros. cartoons. To judge from remarks by Chuck Jones, one of the main producers, Stalling just did a job and nobody really bothered much about the relation of what they were doing to art. Now Stalling is seen as a musical innovator, and John Zorn has said that the great innovation of twentieth century music is cartoon music. Stalling lived in a different time than ours. I remember, prior to the Web, thinking that it was such a different time, one in which Stalling could produce innovative art without really being terribly conscious of it, and do it for a big company, no less. But the medium was relatively new and leaping. And America was a different place, or people thought of it and themselves differently, didn't examine the sorts of questions we're looking at right at this moment. If it was not a state of innocence, then it was a time of worldly triumph and apparent benevolence. Now we look closely to see how deeply informed the art might be by service to the corporate and all that goes with it. I grew up in the old economy of writing, ie, no pay at all. Though I am starting to find that people are interested in paying me for my Web art and also for my knowledge of aspects of computer technology and the Internet. Which is quite a change. Of course, there are young writers/artists/web artists/net.wurkers coming into this time with different expectations about how to proceed as an artist. So that, as you point out, some do multi-media work by day for company x or y and by night feverishly produce their own net.work. Are we returning to a time something like Stalling's that way? I would not wish on writers/artists that they experience the unremitting denial of place in society that seems to have accompanied the life of writing for some time, for most. I would wish that poetry and net.work could be appreciated and inform the life of the culture in a full bodied manner. And that artists, rather than simply endorsing a corporate mentality and art, can pick their way through the attendant land minds and produce work that is widely read and is deeply relevant to the time. This is asking a lot I realize! On second thought, it's not congruent with the way things go, to expect that, though the desire for it may be understandable. We dodge through the machine like Chaplin. But, unlike Chaplin, we try to retain our humanity while picking up parts of the machine and attaching them to us. Do we then finally become indistinguishable from the machine or do we do something else? Like find the human dimensions of the appendage, come to infuse it with the human? And our nature changes a bit also in the process, perhaps not so much *just* toward some mechanical nature, some inhuman thing but, instead, something post human? Different but perhaps no less empathic and aware? It does seem that the relation of oneself or the human to the machine, and how one handles that, what one makes of that, is important in much of the net.work being done. And the corporation, near corporealization of the machine in a larger aspect. A question, in part, of voice problems. Like whose is it? The person's or the corporation's, the person's or the machine's? The feeling that it's necessary to be an outsider in order to produce fully thoughtful and conscious, authentic, committed work, this feeling tells us about the state of the culture, the viscious state. I am interested in visual language. When I look at the visual language of indigenous cultures, I see whole languages, whole cultures of image and story and song and the makers of the works did not need to be outsiders. Their visual language makes ours look forlorn and idiosyncratic, isolated and alienated from the society. There is a sense in the work of many cyberpoets of working on the ABC's of a new art. That of course draws from previous art. Heavily. Toward a synthesis of arts and also of programming. Toward a visual and a sonic, a multi-media sensibility that is full in its range of literary and experiential possibility, that is not reduced to the state of the machine but, on the contrary, can speak to contemporary experience with depth and range. I do see the art of the coming years moving closer to a synthesis of word and image and sound, more fully of the sensorium and all the dimensions of language. There will be other work, of course, as usual, but my own interest is primarily otherwise because that's the work I'm pursuing myself. I still read and there are many books of poetry that are important to me, but I had problems with the print world way before the Internet came along and am happy to be able to publish without waiting on someone else's say so. There is a certain ecstasy to this, and a certain trepidation. Not so much a hubris as a risk of one's humanity. But it seems that we are all dodging through the machine, whether we're doing web art or not. Print poets too. The issue you raise is pointed. How much is just a global commercialization that is more about salesmanship and flash rather than more meaningful gestures? Currently on webartery, an email list I participate in, there's plenty of discussion of this. Some see the old artworld stealing into the net and dragging along all the accoutrements of the museums and the subjugation of art and artists onto the net. Others point out that the sort of corporate need for Web art, or at least 'multi-media', is no safer a place for artists than within the tired institutions of the old art world. Still, for all this, the art itself is young and leaping. > I went to a Rhizome event a few days back, at which an artist gave a talk on > his work over the past 4 years, which was pretty interesting -- the work > spanned uses of Java applets and Flash, not to mention really fine uses of > sound collage and very basic (quick-loading) imagery to great effect. But I > was struck by the frame of the event, as it was sponsored by the magazine > Silicon Alley as well as by Artbyte, which seems to have only practically no > consciousness of the potential dangers of the role corporate (meaning > capitalist) entities play in this dialogue of corporate (meaning web-based > community) art creations. The artist himself calmly noted frequently that > he had "two careers," one as a web-designer for a company and one as an > artist. This, I think, is different than being a poet and a some-time > writer of book reviews, teacher, or editor; it seemed that he was mining his > own artistic ideas for later use on a corporate website, kind of like when > MTV mined the ideas of avant-garde filmmakers for their videos, except in > this case the artist (whose work by the way is at www.lightofspeed.com) was > both figures, artist and exploiter. In Artbyte itself, there was an article > called "Prophets and Profits" about figures such as philosopher Stewart > Brand who, in their theories of the "long view," are really selling their > ideas as vehicles for solutions in business concerns (a relationship > MacLuhan could be said to have foreseen with his work with advertisers). > I didn't know that Strasser set up the weak blood site, and I don't think of > the site as a "failure" not seeming to fulfill certain promises that were > suggested in the format -- it fulfilled other promises very well. Nor do I look at Weak Blood as a failure. Quite the contrary. But in the regard you mentioned, ie, critical perspective on the war, well this is not the strong point of the site. But it is resounding in its denounciation of NATO having acted as it did, which is probably the most important thing about the statement, given that it was from a widely international collection of digital artists. So I > guess it's "noble" in that way. Are their other similar projects where one > could find a quick introduction to international web-poetry? Well Rhizome, as you know, is quite widely international. I am not all that familiar with the international flavours of the collectives, though I do a lot of surfing of the sites of individuals, and my links page at vispo.com is pretty good that way. Chuck Sheppard recently pointed out http://glassdog.net to me, and this page is at first glance impressive in that it lists collectives and it lists lots of them. Funny, it's maintained by an individual who won't list the sites of individuals. http://nettime.org/ is also quite international, but you probably know that well. > > I haven't caught much on the "antiorp" thread -- what's that? That's WWW.M9NDFUKC.COM . I've got a listing at http://vispo.com/misc/links.htm for antiorp=cw4t7abs who was discussed at some length on this list around the time you tried to post this message. > One of my favorite pieces of web art uses just HTML in > fixed-length font, this being Juliet Martin's piece at www.ubu.com. Wait, > here's the URL: > > http://www.ubu.com/contemp/martin/martin.html Ouch. Went to ubu and it's down because of a hard drive failure. Hope it's OK. > I have one work in Director which I'd like to finish this weekend. I'd tell > you about it but it's already 10am and I want to enjoy my freezing cold > apartment on this Saturday. Going to see Mark Wallace and Buck Downs read > today at Double Happiness, and then to the "Shark" party. Looking forward to seeing it, Brian. What's the URL? Regards, Jim http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:51:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Foley Subject: Re: gender / Introductions In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:34 PM 2/24/00 -0800, David Bromige wrote: >[...] a good >deal of my energy in this lifetime has gone to attempting to dispel the >miasma of malehood they pumped into my nursery and kept on pumping until >little by little women--mostly women--pried a window up and started to >clear matters up for me (and for themselves, and why not!). It requires a >good deal of consciousness and i know i am unconscious most of the time. >But I have attempted to show the other side not only to myself but to other >men. And now I am glad that Jamie Perez also shows an _other_ side. > >In this question of gender roles, we all need all the help we can extend >and receive. One book I'd single out as challenging my sense of what masculinity is, is _Triton_ (now published as _Trouble on Triton_) by Samuel R. Delany. That's a book whose lessons I think I will be trying to learn the rest of my life. Anyone -- or everyone -- else read it? Pat ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 10:14:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Fouhy Subject: Poetry, storytelling, song! Comments: To: PAULETTE , PETER PIOPPO , "PeterSpiro@aol.com" , Poetics List Administration , Poncet1212 , "Rachel.Sussman@scribner.simonandschuster.com" , "radio@ncpr.org" , "Remsenman@aol.com" , Rich Pettibone , "Richardc@bestweb.net" , "RinaLanger@aol.com" , "rmannion@infohouse.com" , Robert Scrivens , "Robhuncor@aol.com" , "Roc12000@aol.com" , Ron Price , "RUTHANDLEN@aol.com" , "Ryanmcnulty@cs.com" , "Salious1@aol.com" , "SallyH@wittkieffer.com" , "SamSwope@aol.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mt. Kisco, NY: The Creative Arts Café Poetry Series at the Northern Westchester Center for the Arts celebrates Black History Month with poet, storyteller and singer Karen Wilson. Karen Wilson will perform selections of poetry and songs, including her original work, Monday, Feb. 28th at 7:30 PM. A reception, book signing and open mike follow each reading. Karen Wilson is the recipient of a BRIO Fellowship from the Bronx Council of the Arts. She is storyteller -in- residence through Arts in Education at Elizabeth Morrow School in Englewood, NJ. She is a performer with wide appeal, enthralling children, teenagers and adults alike. Her performances include Ain’t I A Woman: African American Women Reflect American History, for the “Meet the Artist Series” at Lincoln Center in New York City; Celebrate the Earth (ATIS) at the Children’s Museum in Manhattan; and Songs, Stories and Whatnot for Grownups at Speakeasy in NYC. She has also created works and performed for The Harlem School of the Arts and Clearwater’s Hudson River Revival. In 1998, NWCA featured Karin Wilson’s performance of Beauty and the Blues -the Prose and Poems, an adaptation of her popular performance, Beauty and the Blues, which premiered at the Hudson RiverMuseum in February 1997. Through songs and stories, Karen Wilson recreates the realities of African people: whether on their home continent or as they and their descendants moved to new homes across the Western Hemisphere. In the way that African fabrics embrace many colors and African musics embrace many sounds, Karen embraces many different cultures in her storytelling. Her stories touch issues of family and community, relationships in conflict, the importance of responsibility and the power of change. Come and listen: your laughing and clapping will make you part of the event in true African fashion. You may even find yourself singing in one of Karen’s thirteen singing languages right along with her! Karen is a performer with wide appeal, enthralling children, teenagers and adults alike. Her teaching and performance have been acclaimed in diverse settings as: New York City’s Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts and its Central Park Zoo; The Harlem School of the Arts and Lady of the Lake Family Camp in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho; The Children’s Museumof Manhattan, The Museum of Fine Arts in Ponce, Puerto Rico, and Clearwater’s Hudson River Revival. Suggested donation is $7.00; $5:00 seniors and students. Coffee, tea and desserts included. The Northern Westchester Center for the Arts is located at 272 No. Bedford Road in Mt. Kisco, NY10549. There is a Suggested Donation of $7.00, $5.00 for students and seniors. Please call 914 241 6922 for directions from NYC and information regarding a schedule of weekly poetry readings. This series is supported in part by grants from the New York State Council on the Arts, theBydale Foundation and private funds. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 11:18:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: [BRC-NEWS] What Can the White Man Say to the Black Woman? (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 05:52:22 -0500 From: Art McGee To: brc-news@lists.tao.ca Subject: [BRC-NEWS] What Can the White Man Say to the Black Woman? http://www.thenation.com/historic/bhm2000/19890522walker.shtml The Nation May 22, 1989 [In April of 1989, Pulitzer Prize winning writer Alice Walker delivered this poetic address in support of the National March for Women's Equality and Women's Lives in Washington D.C. The march, held a few months after the Supreme Court agreed to review a case involving a restrictive Missouri abortion law, was meant to demonstrate support for safe and legal abortion. Reprinted in The Nation on May 22, Walker's essay surveys the history of relations between white men and black women in America and questions the right of white lawmakers to make decisions about black women's lives.] What Can the White Man Say to the Black Woman? by Alice Walker What is of use in these words I offer in memory of our common mother. And to my daughter. What can the white man say to the black woman? For four hundred years he ruled over the black woman's womb. Let us be clear. In the barracoons and along the slave shipping coasts of Africa, for more than twenty generations, it was he who dashed our babies brains out against the rocks. What can the white man say to the black woman? For four hundred years he determined which black woman's children would live or die. Let it be remembered. It was he who placed our children on the auction block in cities all across the eastern half of what is now the United States, and listened to and watched them beg for their mothers' arms, before being sold to the highest bidder and dragged away. What can the white man say to the black woman? We remember that Fannie Lou Hamer, a poor sharecropper on a Mississippi plantation, was one of twenty-one children; and that on plantations across the South black women often had twelve, fifteen, twenty children. Like their enslaved mothers and grandmothers before them, these black women were sacrificed to the profit the white man could make from harnessing their bodies and their children's bodies to the cotton gin. What can the white man say to the black woman? We see him lined up on Saturday nights, century after century, to make the black mother, who must sell her body to feed her children, go down on her knees to him. Let us take note: He has not cared for a single one of the dark children in his midst, over hundreds of years. Where are the children of the Cherokee, my great grandmother's people? Gone. Where are the children of the Blackfoot? Gone. Where are the children of the Lakota? Gone. Of the Cheyenne? Of the Chippewa? Of the Iroquois? Of the Sioux? Of the Mandinka? Of the Ibo? Of the Ashanti? Where are the children of the "Slave Coast" and Wounded Knee? We do not forget the forced sterilizations and forced starvations on the reservations, here as in South Africa. Nor do we forget the smallpox-infested blankets Indian children were given by the Great White Fathers of the United States government. What has the white man to say to the black woman? When we have children you do everything in your power to make them feel unwanted from the moment they are born. You send them to fight and kill other dark mothers' children around the world. You shove them onto public highways in the path of oncoming cars. You shove their heads through plate glass windows. You string them up and you string them out. What has the white man to say to the black woman? >From the beginning, you have treated all dark children with absolute hatred. Thirty million African children died on the way to the Americas, where nothing awaited them but endless toil and the crack of a bullwhip. They died of a lack of food, of lack of movement in the holds of ships. Of lack of friends and relatives. They died of depression, bewilderment and fear. What has the white man to say to the black woman? Let us look around us: Let us look at the world the white man has made for the black woman and her children. It is a world in which the black woman is still forced to provide cheap labor, in the form of children, for the factories and on the assembly lines of the white man. It is a world into which the white man dumps every foul, person-annulling drug he smuggles into creation. It is a world where many of our babies die at birth, or later of malnutrition, and where many more grow up to live lives of such misery they are forced to choose death by their own hands. What has the white man to say to the black woman, and to all women and children everywhere? Let us consider the depletion of the ozone; let us consider homelessness and the nuclear peril; let us consider the destruction of the rain forests_in the name of the almighty hamburger. Let us consider the poisoned apples and the poisoned water and the poisoned air and the poisoned earth. And that all of our children, because of the white man's assault on the planet, have a possibility of death by cancer in their almost immediate future. What has the white, male lawgiver to say to any of us? To those of us who love life too much to willingly bring more children into a world saturated with death? Abortion, for many women, is more than an experience of suffering beyond anything most men will ever know; it is an act of mercy, and an act of self-defense. To make abortion illegal again is to sentence millions of women and children to miserable lives and even more miserable deaths. Given his history, in relation to us, I think the white man should be ashamed to attempt to speak for the unborn children of the black woman. To force us to have children for him to ridicule, drug and turn into killers and homeless wanderers is a testament to his hypocrisy. What can the white man say to the black woman? Only one thing that the black woman might hear. Yes, indeed, the white man can say, Your children have the right to life. Therefore I will call back from the dead those 30 million who were tossed overboard during the centuries of the slave trade. And the other millions who died in my cotton fields and hanging from trees. I will recall all those who died of broken hearts and broken spirits, under the insult of segregation. I will raise up all the mothers who died exhausted after birthing twenty-one children to work sunup to sundown on my plantation. I will restore to full health all those who perished for lack of food, shelter, sunlight, and love; and from my inability to see them as human beings. But I will go even further: I will tell you, black woman, that I wish to be forgiven the sins I commit daily against you and your children. For I know that until I treat your chil dren with love, I can never be trusted by my own. Nor can I respect myself. And I will free your children from insultingly high infant mortality rates, short life spans, horrible housing, lack of food, rampant ill health. I will liberate them from the ghetto. I will open wide the doors of all the schools and hospitals and businesses of society to your children. I will look at your children and see not a threat but a joy. I will remove myself as an obstacle in the path that your children, against all odds, are making toward the light. I will not assassinate them for dreaming dreams and offering new visions of how to live. I will cease trying to lead your children, for I can see I have never understood where I was going. I will agree to sit quietly for a century or so, and meditate on this. This is what the white man can say to the black woman. We are listening. ----------------------------------------------------------- Send your letter to the editor to letters@thenation.com. Copyright (c) 1989 The Nation Company, L.P. All rights reserved. Unauthorized redistribution is prohibited. If you liked what you just read, you can subscribe to The Nation by calling 1-800-333-8536 or by following this link. The Nation encourages activists and friends of the magazine to share our articles with others. However, it is mandatory that academic institutions, publications and for-profit institutions seeking to reprint material for redistribution contact us for complete guidelines. Please attach this notice in its entirety when copying or redistributing material from The Nation. For further information regarding reprinting and syndication, please call The Nation at (212) 209-5426 or e-mail dveith@thenation.com. ----------------------------------------------------------- [Articles on BRC-NEWS may be forwarded and posted on other mailing lists, as long as the wording/attribution is not altered in any way. In particular, if there is a reference to a web site where an article was originally located, please do *not* remove that. Unless stated otherwise, do *not* publish or post the entire text of any articles on web sites or in print, without getting *explicit* permission from the article author or copyright holder. Check the fair use provisions of the copyright law in your country for details on what you can and can't do. As a courtesy, we'd appreciate it if you let folks know how to subscribe to BRC-NEWS, by leaving in the first five lines of the signature below.] -------------------------------------------------------------------------- BRC-NEWS: Black Radical Congress - General News Articles/Reports -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subscribe: Email "subscribe brc-news" to -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unsubscribe: Email "unsubscribe brc-news" to -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Digest: Email "subscribe brc-news-digest" to -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Archive: http://www.egroups.com/group/brc-news (When accessing for the first time, set the "Delivery Mode" to "Read On The Web Only") -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Questions/Problems: Send email to -------------------------------------------------------------------------- www.blackradicalcongress.org | BRC | blackradicalcongress@email.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:09:35 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Gaz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Larry Price edited Gaz. 129 Mountain Ave Summit, NJ 07901 Ron ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 11:44:06 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: the "rigor of humor"/gender In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I have for some time imagined that the absence of the identity of males is >somehow related to illusions of omnipresence, theories of no-self, >monotheism, products of hypersurvivalist and isolationist quasi-fascist >island pirate nation-states and monarchies such as Japan, Britain and the us >(perhaps the us is just a really big island). I've had the overwhelming >impression that the aesthetic of no-self, and the absence of identities >supported by many (mostly male) writers, is incredibly masculine, >patriarchal. it's the type of aesthetic that perhaps gives the rationale >for erasing identities in prisons, for building panopticons, for numbering >soldiers labeled with dog tags who are sent off as identity-less numbers to >die in battle, for dehumanizing the organizing strengths of humans resistant >to such patriarchal forms of power. this perception for me applies from >literature to religion to philosophy to politics. I can just barely see, >perhaps on an intuitive level, a tacit prescription that men should not be >present, we should be hovering over the landscape, as gods, as objective >observers. you know, the strong silent types. while femininity seems more >firmly rooted in being of this world, that there is some belief that bias >and personality and presence _add_, not detract. > >of course this could be one horrific generalization. just please note I >have said this is merely my sense of the world, of masculinity and >femininity. > >Patrick Herron > > > Well this clarifies for me why I find all of this so confusing. Someone says "objective" and I think "but that's what I mean by subjective" and vice versa. What Patrick refers to as the male no-self I think of as the not-just-male but unfortunately human Self, or is it SELF, that is, the confusion of storyline with reality, which I guess men receive more cultural encouragement in cultivating, while what Patrick refers to as the female belief in the value of bias and personality seems to me to be an appreciation of and understanding of the limits of this storyline and humility before the impossibility of avoiding it, again this is not gender specific, but I guess it's more socially acceptable for women, yes? she says tentatively thus showing she has learned her gender roles if not well at least a little. I still don't know what objective and subjective mean. Meaning: I know the dictionary meaning but in practice it all seems to collapse in on itself. But this self/no-self thing seems to have more handles. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Whoppers Whoppers Whoppers! Math, University of Kansas | memory fails Lawrence, KS 66045 | these are the days." 785-864-4630 | fax: 785-864-5255 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.math.ukans.edu/~roitman/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 21:52:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Re: 'cultural capital' and 'prestige' / Dillon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message had to be reformatted. Chris -- Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:00:24 -0500 From: "Richard Dillon" Jim, Since Ginsberg it's well established that someone can make a million dollars in USA by successfully attacking the received cultural capital of their time and then selling another, a counter culture, which they then administrate. >> INCOMING! << RCHD ---------- >From: Jim Andrews >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: 'cultural capital' and 'prestige' >Date: Tue, Feb 15, 2000, 12:51 AM > >> >How does the notion of 'cultural capital' differ from 'prestige'? > >> Neither of these words imply in any way >> the capacity to inspire anyone anywhere >> to take one more breath or step >> >> which is what literary writing bottom line is - for. > >Whether or not this is true, Richard, a good look at the way things go down >in poetryland >is useful in taking the next step. For a poet, anyway. I would rather >understand the whole >story than pretend it doesn't exist. Lots of poets sound like they're >pushing a particular >poetical commodity. In other words, they sound like salespeople. Perhaps >rousing and >eloquent salespeople, but salespeople all the same. And often they don't >see that, they >figure they're on about something else. How can you be honest when you >don't know what >you're doing? So I think that a good look into these things is useful. > >j > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:32:48 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alicia Askenase Subject: Anne Waldman Reading in Camden, NJ Comments: cc: whpoets@dept.english.upenn.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Poet Anne Waldman will read at the Walt Whitman Cultural Arts Center 2nd and Cooper Streets Camden, NJ Friday, March 3, 7:30 p.m. $6/$4 students/seniors/free for members for information/directions contact the Center at 856-964-8300 wwhitma@waltwhitmancenter.org www.waltwhitmancenter.org If you are not on our mailing list and would like to receive our newsletter and announcements, please send us your address. Our most recent newsletter contains an interview with Robert Creeley who appeared here in October. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:34:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: ReMap Query MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 1) What poetics magazines are you currently reading AND subscribing to? 2) what defines an important or "needed" poetics magazine for you. 3) What purpose should/does a poetics magazine have? Hi Todd, I'd love a copy of the Love issue of ReMap, and would be willing to trade books, or chaps for it, if you'd like. Backchannel me & we can talk about it more. As for your questions, the truth is, I don't subscribe to any poetics (or poetry) magazines, largely due to lack of funds. I usually trade. Basically, I read Shark. Most of what I get/trade for are poetry mags or chapbooks, not poetics mags. To be totally honest, *most* of what I read w/respect to contemporary poetry is online. (I have lots of time at work to do this, or at the very least, to print things out.) And there are at least a few mags devoted solely or partially to poetics online that I've really found valuable: Arras: Brian Kim Stefans mag, which has a few interviews and essays. Callaloo: Which you can't get unless you subscribe to it (I can get it because I have a Columbia University email, and the University library subscribes to it). The East Village Web: Mostly poetry, but Jack Kimball is starting to publish poetics essays as well. How2: Probably the best online devoted to mostly poetics; it also includes new poetry. Jacket: John Tranter's mag has lots of interviews, essays and reviews. Lagniappe: Graham Foust and Benjamin Friedlander's mag is mostly reviews and includes a few broader essays and letter exchanges. Readme: The mag I do, which is predominantly interviews, essays and reviews, with some poetry by people contributing secondary material. Most poetics journals -- at least the ones I've run across -- tend to be either too conservative or too academic (which, as I'm using the term "academic," means pretty much the same thing) for my tastes, so I don't bother with them. As for question #2, important or needed would mean that the magazines include discussions of work that I'm generally interested in. Also, that they offer something more than PR. I don't mean that they can't be overwhelmingly positive. But, I guess there has to be, for me, some sense that the writers are really engaged with the work they're writing about. This may be another reason I tend to shy away from what I'd call more "academic" poetics journals: I don't have the sense that the authors are engaged so much in the writing under discussion as much as the various critical frameworks they're looking at the text(s) through. Obviously, that's arguable. We all look through various frames. But, I guess what I mean is that I have to have the sense that whatever does come up, in the review or overview or whatever, comes from the work examined. I realize that, you know what? It's been kind of a long time since I've read a really good poetics essay that wasn't involved with a specific other work, or set of works: in other words, a kind of "general" poetics essay. It may be that I kind of avoid manifestos; I don't know. Totalizing pronouncements, while they may be of great value to any poet who writes them, may not be so valuable to me, unless I'm really studying that poet's work at the time. As for question #3, I can't speak for anyone else's purpose; just that I guess it would have to sustain whoever's doing the magazine. For my own magazine, the purpose is to get poets talking about their own and others' work. Whether or not I'm interested in the poet's work, the interview, if it's "successful," tends to deepen my familiarization with that person, or maybe provides more of a context for their work than I had before. As I said, I don't like totalizing propositions about What Poetry Is or What Poetry Should Do, and tend not to respond to that; more to people describing what feeds and/or drives them. Art history doesn't really interest me anymore, either, so historicization of one's writing (or another's) also tends to leave me cold. The ideal poetics journal, for me, would be one where you've got very close readings of various texts, and pieces that deepened my sense of the context in which any one particular poet might be writing (their "life"). It's a drag that you haven't had much response to the magazine lately. I get a lot of response to mine, but I think that's because the medium is conducive to immediate response--so I do get a lot of email, probably from people who are at the site while they're writing me. I'm embarrassed to admit that I haven't written a through-the-mails letter in at least a year, probably longer, and I used to do that a lot. ... Anyway, I don't know if this adds anything, helps, or what. But I'd love to hear what others have to say about the various poetics journals they read ... especially if anyone knows of any great ones online I've missed (or wants to send me copies of their in-print ones!) ... Yours, Gary Sullivan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 17:41:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Rectification of Names, (De) Rectification of Rectification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII --- Rectification of Names, (De) Rectification of Rectification Confucius, Analects, XIII iii, translation Legge: 1. Tsze-lu said, 'The ruler of Wei has been waiting for you, in order with you to administer the government. What will you consider the first thing to be done?' 2. The Master replied, 'What is necessary is to rectify names.' 3. 'So, indeed!' said Tsze-lu. 'You are wide of the mark! Why must there be such rectification?' 4. The Master said, 'How uncultivated you are, Yu! A superior man, in regard to what he does not know, shows a cautious reserve. 5. 'If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot be carried on to success. 6. 'When affairs cannot be carried on to success, proprieties and music will not flourish. When proprieties and music do not flourish, punishments will not be properly awarded. When punishments are not properly awarded, the people do not know how to move hand or foot. 7. 'Therefore a superior man considers it necessary that the names he uses may be spoken _appropriately,_ and also that what he speaks may be carried out _appropriately._ What the superior man requires, is just that in his words there may be nothing incorrect.' Hsun Tzu, from Rectifying Names, translation Watson: [If there are no fixed names,] but men begin to discriminate the different forms of things on the basis of their own particular observations, each applying his own names and interpreting the different phenomena in his own fashion, then the relationships between names and realities will become obscured and entangled, the distinction between eminent and humble will become unclear, and men will no longer discriminate properly between things that are the same and those that are different. [...] And how does one go about distinguishing between things that are the same and those that are different? One relies upon the senses. Things which are of the same species and form will be apprehended by the senses as being all the same thing. [...] In this way one arrives at a common name for all the things of one class, which everyone agrees to use when the occasion demands. [...] The myriad beings of creation are countless, and yet at times we wish to refer to all of them in general, and so we call them "things." "Things" is the broadest general term. [...] One starts with the broadest possible term and moves on to terms whose meaning is more and more circumscribed until one can go no farther, and there one stops. Names have no intrinsic appropriateness. One agrees to use a certain name and issues an order to that effect, and if the agreement is abided by and becomes a matter of custom, then the name may be said to be appropriate, but if people do not abide by the agreement, then the name ceases to be appropriate. Names have no intrinsic reality. [...] Names are used when the reality itself is not clearly understood. Combin- ations of names are used when single names alone are not understood. [...] Names are the means by which one attempts to distinguish different reali- ties. [...] Discourses and explanations are the means by which, without allowing names to become separated from realities, one makes men under- stand the principles of correct action. Names and combinations of names are the instruments of discourse and explanation. Discourse and explana- tion are the means by which the mind gives form to the Way. [...] Kung-Sun Lung-Tzu, from Chuh wu lun, Designation of Things (probably spurious), translation Perleberg: 1. Guest: "There is not a thing which cannot be designated. Designations, however, are undesignated." 2. Host: "If there are no designations in the world, things cannot be called things." 3. Host: If there is no designation, (how) could things in this world be called designated?" 4. Guest: "Designation is not of this world. Things, are of this world. It is not possible to accept that which exists in the world for that which does not exist." 5. Host: "In the world being no designation, then things can never be said to be designated." 6. Host: "If they cannot be called designated, there is no designation." [...] ibid., full text of Ming shih lun, Discourse on Names and their Actual Significance: 1. "Heaven and Earth and what they produce are things." 2. "A thing is a thing and nothing more. This is actuality." 3. "Actuality exhibits actuality. This actuality is not empty. It has position." 4. "Taking it from its position makes it lose its position. Placing it in its position makes it rectified." 5. "In using this (proper) rectification which is no (proper) rectifica- tion, means, having doubts in its (proper) rectification." 6. "To rectify that which rectifies an actuality, mean the rectification of this actuality and also the rectification of its name." 7. "Once its name is rectified, then follows, that THAT is THIS." 8. "In calling it THAT, whilst THAT does not affirm it, THAT then is THAT and does not react to it." 9. "In calling it THIS and THIS does not affirm it, THIS is then THIS and does not react to it." 10. "By taking IT as being in agreement, it is in disagreement. It is then in disagreement, and will cause confusion." 11. "Therefore THAT agrees with THAT, and THAT affirming it, means it will respond to THAT. THIS agrees with THIS, and THIS affirming it, means it will respond to THIS. Taking anything as being in agreement makes it agree with it. That it agrees with the agreement is the rectification of this agreement." 12. "Therefore THAT and THAT stops at THAT, and THIS and THIS stops at THIS - which is possible." 13. "THAT and THIS is but THAT. Moreover, THIS and THIS is THAT. In that case THIS becomes THAT, which is impossible." 14. "A name must be identified by its actuality. Knowing that THIS is not THIS and knowing that THIS is not in THIS then it cannot be called (THIS). Knowing that THAT is not THAT, and knowing that THAT is not in THAT, then it cannot be called (THAT)." 15. "How perfect were the ancient farsighted kings! They examined names and their actualities. How careful they were in what they said! How per- fect and farsighted were the ancient kings!" from nothing: comes dark matter, ghost-skein of things, all things virtual, in this and all possible worlds, the propriety of assignment in dialectic with what is observed as the real, the process of the proper name its _continuous_ in- stantiation. ghosts hanging on to ghosts, we are all of the imaginary, the symbolic nothing more than temporary stasis. look closely and see through all of this, the names disappearing, returning to the matter of the world. ___ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:31:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: thot on publishing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Around 1992 or so I saw Leslie Marmon Silko speak at the Lannan series in LA. There she was with a big NY book out (The Almanac of the Dead -- loved it) saying now she was really getting into working with the xerox machine and materiality and seeing her work that way. That's all. But I'm going to post again in a few minutes, warning! ET ___________________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell Double Lucy Books & Outlet Magazine http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:31:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: from my Numbered Body Diary / gender Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This is from a little something I've been working on for a slightly other project -- but maybe it fits best here and now in the gender swirl.--Eliz. (warning long post) 3.) To make of its course any possible exception. What Can She Be? A Fiction (Mom gave us a series: _What Can She Be? A Lawyer_, etc., with savvy women in power suits illustrating them. This is not to say that Mom's '70s-ragged Virginia Woolf t-shirt clothing her child-adored body did not embolden me. Hi Mom!) I searched for the word "women" in the Poetics List Archive since January 1, 1999 and found "The Battle of the Sexes", begun by Chris Stroffolino on February 8 with this comment: "Dear listees: You know, there's certain 'commonplaces' circulating that the women writers of 'my generation' are so much better than the male writers (the previous moderator Joel Kuszai, I think was the last one to say this, and it went unchallenged....so far)--- I think I used to think this too a couple of years ago, but the best books I've read in the last year by young writers all seem to be male for me (NOTICE very carefully my wording--I am not saying that the MALES are the superior sex or anything, I'm just saying that it is as ridiculous to say the women are the best writers of my generation as it is to say that say Ron Silliman or Bruce Andrews is better than Carla Harryman or Rae Armantrout...) specifically, two 'first books' Anselm Berrigan's INTEGRITY & DRAMATIC LIFE Joshua Beckman's THINGS ARE HAPPENING and two 'second books' Peter Gizzi's ARTIFICIAL HEART and Jeffrey McDaniel's THE FORGIVENESS PARADE... well, if anybody wants to tell me why the works by the more currently 'fashionable' gender are better, feel free (unless the moderator doesn't see this kind of argument as worthy of the new list.....) sincerely, chris stroffolino" And continued, in part, thus: [several women weighed in with titles by women; several objected to the word "fashionable"] [as well they might, and what does Stroffolino's post really do but promote 8 writers, 2 of them women?] from Jacques Debrot, February 10: "Much more interesting than the _sex_ of the author, it seems to me, is the linguistic _sexuality_ of the work itself -- oral, phallic, anal, labial, etc., etc. or any of these in combination. --That is, what types of sexualities, surfacing as varieties of poetic speech, produce the most interesting language?" from Maria Damon, February 12: "this is a wonderful formulation, jacques. aside from considerations of 'the work itself' and aesthetic judgments thereof, which this discussion primarily addresses, is the question of the conditions under which a text is produced; and here i find the gender of the writer, embedded as it must be in social contingencies, potentially extremely interesting." And fairly quickly abandoned for class issues and the general melee many of us know well. I have posited elsewhere that Zora Neale Hurston and Ella Cara Deloria did more to render the "American grain" in this century than did William Carlos Williams (not that it's a contest -- uh). (Not that I don't like WCW!) This "Battle of the Sexes" argument gets to several predictable points quickly. But not everyone's central concern is either a.) what strikes me as the prototypical aggressively defensive male stance toward any successful woman on any terms which exactly proves -- whilst reenacting, how clever -- the complete problem* or b.) a sexy textual analysis or even c.) the sociological impact of being a gendered person. *This is not the only male reaction however it is familiar. There is a tradition stretching from Aphra Behn to Jacqueline Susann of women who wrote to cause trouble and to make a living. (& if we agree to broaden the meaning of "make a living" here, this statement will make more sense in a poetics colloquium.) One could do textual and sociological analyses of their work, but I am in many moods much more interested in the circumstances and the personalities _as expressed in their own times and terms_, not ours. Oppression's subdefinition: always starting at the beginning. We need more knowledge of history so as not always to be at the beginning, though some would always have us so, and beginning elsewhere we will often fall on deaf, untrained, or hostile, ears. "Gender is a nightmare. To inhabit, to enact one gender, to embody one gender all day and all night, everyday and every night is a nightmare." --Jocelyn Saidenberg, "As a / As if", _Tripwire 3_ PS: Chris, Jacques and Maria are all appreciated by me. PPS: If women don't speak / publish or get silenced, that becomes, historically, censorship. PPPS: I know all sorts of class and race issues are submerged here. It's difficult stuff. (Duh you might say to this ppps/me, and I wouldn't blame you.) ___________________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell Double Lucy Books & Outlet Magazine http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:21:04 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: shameless san franny Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Recent readings reportage. Taylor Brady and Diane Ward at Small Press Traffic. HORRIFYING weather, and still a quite large crowd. TB seems to have groupies. Good for him. Interesting work. And the culverts in it matched the rain. I was very obsessed and pleased with DW's new portraits and maps, which are coming out in a book soon I hear. Lisa Jarnot and Norma Cole at BlueBar. Got the books: Vulgar Tongue by NC and Eightfold Path by LJ. Gorgeously bound up by a+bend, Jill Stengel's project. Adored Norma's moment about "Elizabeth Carter, 1717-1806" if that doesn't just fit into the stereotype I am making of myself here. Lisa was very endearing as a reader, wry. I'd recommend both the chaps, though I haven't been too articulate. (The bartender at the BlueBar (which is a supernice place and at poetry events I feel well-heeled enuf for it) was a nut and slow which meant I ended up with two beers for the price of one altho secretly that still means the price of two. Earlier Sarah Anne Cox on her way over (the spot is in North Beach, aka the North Beach of the 50s, rather than the Mission, aka the North Beach of the 90s) couldn't find a copy of Nightwood at City Lights. What's with that? Yedda Morrison found ten at Barnes and Noble at Stonestown (mall near SFState). In North Beach you can't smoke in bars and in the Mission you can. AHEM.) 6500 reading at Blue Books, New College. The new issue has a gorgeous cover. SOOO nice. Two old saturated color bottles sittin there. Lots of art inside too. 8 people read for really only 5 minutes each. Lots were funny. (Not me. Except to myself.) Interesting mix of work. I like to see crossover. And they had free beers for us. Everyone. Blue Books is also becoming fab. I'm sure they have Nightwood. Plus every chapbook I've heard tell of recently. It keeps raining. And my next piece will be for Let's Go. ___________________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell Double Lucy Books & Outlet Magazine http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:06:51 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jill Stengel Subject: Canessa March 7th 2000 (sf reading) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit March 2000 @ Canessa Park Reading Series 708 Montgomery St. San Francisco CA Admission $5 Tuesday Night March 7th @ 7:30 pm Daniel Bouchard & Jill Stengel Daniel Bouchard lives in Cambridge, Mass. where he is a tenant organizer for the Eviction Free Zone. He is (with William Corbett and Joseph Torra) an editor of Pressed Wafer. "Diminutive Revolutions" (SubPress, 2000) is his first book. His poems have appeared in The Hat, Bivouac, and Mirage#4/Period(ical). Jill Stengel is a San Francisco poet, publisher, event organizer, occasional teacher, and sometimes visual artist. She currently hosts a monthly reading series at BlueBar in San Francisco, for which her a+bend press produces a companion chapbook series. Recent work can be found in Poetry New York, Prosodia, WOOD, and the anthology Touched by Adoption; and her chapbook is history, possibilities : . ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 22:01:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: hoax and petition reference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Having just received yet again the "Congress to Allow Email Charges" message, I thought it might be useful for me to post the addresses of a few internet sites that gloss internet hoaxes and dated petitions. I would advise that subscribers refer to these sites before posting petitions or news, especially where one has no sure knowledge of the matter at hand. Christopher W. Alexander poetics list moderator -- Stiller Research's Hoax Page CIAC's hoax page (this is the Computer Incident Advisory Capacity, a division of the U.S. Department of Energy) The San Fernando Valley Folklore Society's Urban Legends Reference Pages -- from CIAC web page (cited above): Internet Access Charges January 1999 This is a variant of the historic modem tax hoax of bygone years. This latest version started making its rounds on Nov 06, 1998, based apparently on a CNN story. Early versions pointed the finger at the FCC as the villian in this story. Then it was 'the government', then it was 'the Congress'. FCC statement: "... the FCC has no intention of assessing per-minute charges on Internet traffic or of making any changes in the way consumers obtain and pay for access to the Internet." ******************************** Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 10:03 PM Looks like Congress has found another way to tax us. There is a new bill in US Congress that will be affecting all Internet users. You might want to read this and pass it on. CNN stated that the government would in two weeks time decide to allow or not allow a charge to your (OUR) phone bill each time you access the internet. Please visit the following URL and fill out the necessary form! The address is http://www.house.gov/writerep/ If EACH one of us, forward this message on to others in a hurry, we may be able to prevent this from happening! (Maybe we CAN fight the phone company!) ********************************* This alert is a hoax. The earliest electronic version of it, which does not urge any particular action but merely reports and comments on the story, appeared on Usenet on Nov 06, 1998. Appearing under the thread "INTERNET PER MINUTE FEES COMING?" on the ba.internet news group, it cited a CNN story aired that same day. A later version, urging everyone to contact Congress, appeared on Nov 18, 1998 in a different news group and referenced an FCC release dated Oct 30, 1998 as the source of the CNN story. The actual FCC proceeding which apparently set off this mushrooming flurry of alerts dealt with the 'reciprocal billing' issue, which relates to charges for interconnectivity between various telcos. In reaction to it, the FCC issued an official statement of December, 1998, which can be found at . This publication restates that the reciprocal billing issue does not include any proposal to have metered billing of any sort by the telcos for internet usage. Reputable organizations producing legislative alerts will include some basic information which will assist the reader in determining how and when to respond. Most if not all of this information was missing from this spurious alert. 1) Congress does not vote as a single body. Any alert should name the specific body (House or Senate) scheduled to vote to whom letters/email should be sent. It will also indicate whether this is in front of a committee, and which committee, or that it is set for a floor vote. 2) At a minimum, a specific bill number will be cited such as S.1615 or H.R.3888. The reader can then check the Congressional bill status web site to determine the precise current status of the bill before writing to your member of Congress about it. 3) A specific alert date, and a deadline date for responses, will be included to help in determining whether the alert is stale. 4) A legitimate alert will say exactly what is wrong with (or right with) the bill, possibly even citing a specific section. Check the language of the bill on Thomas to ensure that amendments to the bill in between the time the alert went out and the time that you're reading it haven't changed it to the point where the alert is no longer relevant. It should also be noted that this alert began making its rounds after the 105th Congress had adjourned. Although the House of Representatives came back into a lame duck (post election) session to consider the issue of impeachment of the president, no other issues were considered. And the Senate did not reconvene at all. The 106th Congress was officially convened in early January, 1999. At the time the new Congress is seated at the beginning of every odd numbered year, all bills not enacted into law by the end of the previous Congress are swept away. The new Congress starts over with a clean slate, introducing entirely new bills which must make their way through the entire legislative process. A legislative alert from 1998 is null and void in January, 1999, whether it was spurious at the time or not. Charles Oriez coriez@netone.com National Legislative Chair Association of Information Technology Professionals -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 21:09:30 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: Re: review of Tardos's Uxudo In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000225065719.0079abc0@theriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Amazon.com is wrong At 06:57 AM 02/25/2000 -0700, you wrote: >amazon.com says Anne Tardos's *Uxudo* is published by Atelos Press. > >charles > >At 10:34 PM 2/24/00 -0800, you wrote: >>Actually, >> >>If I'm not mistaken it's an joint publication venture : O Books/Tuumba >> >>But wouldn't swear away my first child on it . . . > > k e n n i n g a newsletter of contemporary poetry, poetics, and nonfiction writing http://www.avalon.net/~kenning 418 Brown St. #10, Iowa City, IA 52245, USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 21:46:23 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: ReMap query Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tod asks about poetics mags: I think that Crayon, with their first issue (the festschrift for Jackson Mac Low), and Aerial are doing important work in publishing attractive, durable, and diverse (content / contributor wise) issues devoted to a single author / artist. Even if my interest in the author "treated" in the issue is not extensive, these mags hold the possibility of changing that for me. At the least, they give me some sense of the generative possibility one author / artist holds in developing their poetics through essays, talks, poems of course, interviews, publishing and making other opportunities for and with other artists, etc. The work by other writers published in tandem to the "treated" author / artist gathers a certain something in that context & often provides a(nother) way in to the work by the featured cover star. Jerrold Shiroma's Duration Press chapbook series, to which I have subscribed from the outset, is absolutely one of the most important series I know of right now (alongside Second Story, Leroy, and Potes & Poets new series). The reason that "international writing" in translation is important to me is . . . well, while writing from the belly of the beast (USAmerica) tends toward certain conceits at any given moment, one notes that other traditions, more or less particular to their given contexts, mean other criteria for innovation, etc. It's equally interesting to me to see what English language poets are reading (translating episode one) and how it is they are rendering the work they read from more or less outside the contexts of the "original" works (translating episode two). If you believe that civic discourse includes poetry / poetics, the world market threat to and augmentation of "culture" makes a series such as Jerrold's as vital as can be. I tend to subscribe to mags and chapbook series that are self-conscious in what they do, why they do it. Mary Burger's Second Story Books series has a particular project, an intellectual project, behind it, not merely a matter of publishing work that no one else would touch (which is not necessarily the case, anyhow). And that project is reoriented as per the work and as it comes out. So, there's some learning going on there. How can I resist chipping in? The benefits are obvious. Patrick k e n n i n g a newsletter of contemporary poetry, poetics, and nonfiction writing http://www.avalon.net/~kenning 418 Brown St. #10, Iowa City, IA 52245, USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 11:45:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Re: remap gender / baron MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message had to be reformatted. Chris -- Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:13:22 -0800 From: "todd baron" dear e: thank-you for yr response. interesting my mind tells me that often more than not most folks do the usual--read poets they know--and even tho the poetics IS dialogue--less and less go on. Chain is amazing. Tripwire too. I miss ACTS, TEMBLOR (which did the only great job of blending poets--"language" next to "beat era" or whatever--) esp. How(ever) and others. I simply want to publish AND talk abt poetics. THat doesn't happen even with the subscribers we have. It's weird--and like show business--still. sad. even with my query--only a few respond. alls, Tb ---------- From: Elizabeth Treadwell To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: remap gender Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000, 12:51 AM re todd baron: How bout a web site? I actually get orders and letters every now and then and actually more and more from my very lowtech one. 1) What poetics magazines are you currently reading AND subscribing to? Tripwire. Ixnay. Kenning. Poetry Project Newsletter. I think The Germ and the Hat, actually I think 6ix too. Chain's run out after a few years. Easily (comparatively at least) available at stores. 2) what defines an important or "needed" poetics magazine for you. interesting vital work (what a boring answer huh?). women (frankly if its more than half men i don't have the time). a decent design is nice too, however cheaply done. actually i find it kinda essential. re jamie perez: >here I have a problem: "men have defined... why shd they..." I think as >many a man feels ensnared in this "dominant" culture that has painted >them into a set of roles and actions. I would say most men don't feel >they are the alpha male all around and are often looking over their >shoulder at that bigger fish that's gonna put them in their "place." (A >man's place is working for/trying to please another man?) Men are no >more free-ranging than women in "options," unless you look at a small >subset of what they "can" do and exclude a whole other range of >experience. I suppose one could look at another small subset of >experience and show how free-ranging women are, but has anybody >investigated this? but seriously, haven't men defined it? women have influenced it perhaps, and maybe are even secretly ruling the world, right, yay. but did you know Sarah Fielding was more respected and more popular in her lifetime than her bro Henry? (source: Mothers of the Novel, Dale Spender) Does that count as disappeared? Censored? On any non-dead level? It is political, you won't change my mind there. And like, I dunno, have we HAD any girl presidents? I know men don't feel like god all the time, I do sometimes , etc. But that doesn't take care of the free-range or the f**ked up ness. I will find the thrilling quote from one of SF's novels to post here; I passed the book on...... How bout this for a title? THE FEMALE QUIXOTE (1752) by Charlotte Lennox. Rockin. ET ___________________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell Double Lucy Books & Outlet Magazine http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 22:07:41 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: ReMap Query / baron MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, "English-language" jingoism seems to grow and grow and grow, particularly on the net. Those that have get. tom bell Jerrold Shiroma wrote: > Makes me wonder how > many people are actually interested in what happens beyond our > American poetic borders. In response, or in addition to your post, > perhaps I should also post the questions: > -- //\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\ OOOPSY \///\\\/\///\\\/ <><>,...,., WHOOPS J K JOVE BY HHH ZOOOOZ ZEUS'WRATHHTARW LLLL STOPG [ EMPTY ] SPACER index of online work at http://members.home.net/trbell essays: http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/criticism/gloom.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 11:47:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Re: ReMap Query / baron MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message had to be reformatted. Chris -- Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:15:04 -0800 From: "todd baron" gary: will do. send me yr address--and thanks for a true dialogue. more later when I learn to backchannel. yrs, Todd Baron * * * ReMap ---------- From: Gary Sullivan To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: ReMap Query Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000, 12:34 PM 1) What poetics magazines are you currently reading AND subscribing to? 2) what defines an important or "needed" poetics magazine for you. 3) What purpose should/does a poetics magazine have? Hi Todd, I'd love a copy of the Love issue of ReMap, and would be willing to trade books, or chaps for it, if you'd like. Backchannel me & we can talk about it more. As for your questions, the truth is, I don't subscribe to any poetics (or poetry) magazines, largely due to lack of funds. I usually trade. Basically, I read Shark. Most of what I get/trade for are poetry mags or chapbooks, not poetics mags. To be totally honest, *most* of what I read w/respect to contemporary poetry is online. (I have lots of time at work to do this, or at the very least, to print things out.) And there are at least a few mags devoted solely or partially to poetics online that I've really found valuable: Arras: Brian Kim Stefans mag, which has a few interviews and essays. Callaloo: Which you can't get unless you subscribe to it (I can get it because I have a Columbia University email, and the University library subscribes to it). The East Village Web: Mostly poetry, but Jack Kimball is starting to publish poetics essays as well. How2: Probably the best online devoted to mostly poetics; it also includes new poetry. Jacket: John Tranter's mag has lots of interviews, essays and reviews. Lagniappe: Graham Foust and Benjamin Friedlander's mag is mostly reviews and includes a few broader essays and letter exchanges. Readme: The mag I do, which is predominantly interviews, essays and reviews, with some poetry by people contributing secondary material. Most poetics journals -- at least the ones I've run across -- tend to be either too conservative or too academic (which, as I'm using the term "academic," means pretty much the same thing) for my tastes, so I don't bother with them. As for question #2, important or needed would mean that the magazines include discussions of work that I'm generally interested in. Also, that they offer something more than PR. I don't mean that they can't be overwhelmingly positive. But, I guess there has to be, for me, some sense that the writers are really engaged with the work they're writing about. This may be another reason I tend to shy away from what I'd call more "academic" poetics journals: I don't have the sense that the authors are engaged so much in the writing under discussion as much as the various critical frameworks they're looking at the text(s) through. Obviously, that's arguable. We all look through various frames. But, I guess what I mean is that I have to have the sense that whatever does come up, in the review or overview or whatever, comes from the work examined. I realize that, you know what? It's been kind of a long time since I've read a really good poetics essay that wasn't involved with a specific other work, or set of works: in other words, a kind of "general" poetics essay. It may be that I kind of avoid manifestos; I don't know. Totalizing pronouncements, while they may be of great value to any poet who writes them, may not be so valuable to me, unless I'm really studying that poet's work at the time. As for question #3, I can't speak for anyone else's purpose; just that I guess it would have to sustain whoever's doing the magazine. For my own magazine, the purpose is to get poets talking about their own and others' work. Whether or not I'm interested in the poet's work, the interview, if it's "successful," tends to deepen my familiarization with that person, or maybe provides more of a context for their work than I had before. As I said, I don't like totalizing propositions about What Poetry Is or What Poetry Should Do, and tend not to respond to that; more to people describing what feeds and/or drives them. Art history doesn't really interest me anymore, either, so historicization of one's writing (or another's) also tends to leave me cold. The ideal poetics journal, for me, would be one where you've got very close readings of various texts, and pieces that deepened my sense of the context in which any one particular poet might be writing (their "life"). It's a drag that you haven't had much response to the magazine lately. I get a lot of response to mine, but I think that's because the medium is conducive to immediate response--so I do get a lot of email, probably from people who are at the site while they're writing me. I'm embarrassed to admit that I haven't written a through-the-mails letter in at least a year, probably longer, and I used to do that a lot. ... Anyway, I don't know if this adds anything, helps, or what. But I'd love to hear what others have to say about the various poetics journals they read .. especially if anyone knows of any great ones online I've missed (or wants to send me copies of their in-print ones!) ... Yours, Gary Sullivan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 11:53:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Re: ReMap Query / baron MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message had to be reformatted. Chris -- Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:18:27 -0800 From: "todd baron" wonderful dialogue! I have recently purchased NO single anthology--sadly--due to the SAME voices being heard and entire generations lost. I read any magazine that comes my way--and recently New American Poetry, Talisman, new mag. zazil, too true as feeling down. not abt money either but TALK. Even this list doesn't discuss often THE POEM--the thing itself--but rather surroundings of the poem. More later-- send me yr address ReMaps there. alls, Tb ---------- From: Jerrold Shiroma To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: ReMap Query / baron Date: Thu, Feb 24, 2000, 11:46 PM Todd, While I may not be answering your question directly (or at all), I have encountered many of the same problems with the duration chapbook series. Beyond the small handful of subscribers, & the freebies I send out, the response to the series is almost nil. Makes me wonder how many people are actually interested in what happens beyond our American poetic borders. In response, or in addition to your post, perhaps I should also post the questions: 1) What anthologies / collections / etc. of poetry in translation have you recently purchased. 2) Does the work of poets from other countries (specifically non-English speaking countries) have any importance to your own work. 3) What purpose does, or should, the publication of works in translation have, if any. I don't want to sound like I am complaining, but am feeling somewhat discouraged by the whole thing, & wonder if anyone actually cares for, or is interested in, works in translation. Bests, Jerrold ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 05:20:33 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: re-map questions MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit 1) What poetics magazines are you currently reading AND subscribing to? Some of these are trades, I think, not really sure-- Quarter After Eight, Key Satch(el) (the mag folded but the chaps live on), Lost and Found Times, Skanky Possum, Hanging Loose, Denver Quarterly, Orpheus Grid, House Organ, Primary Writing, Controlled Burn, The Prose Poem International, there's more, these the immediate I think of, & in reaction to, right now. As Gary mentions, many fine web based magazines as well. 2) what defines an important or "needed" poetics magazine for you. The editors. Take the new magazine ZAZIL. When the editors Bill Marsh, Joe Ross, Joel Kuszai & Stephen Cope, get together, I have an expectation based on what each of them has done in the past. If you have not seen this mag, it kicks, with a balance of new contributors (don't have it here, but Mez? takes chances, as do the editors including her) & familiars/ established folks. Reading full length books and finding out where an author I appreciate first appeared in. Then trying an issue, to see if the editor has the stamina to continue these kind of choices. My favorite mags, have two things in common usually: 1. New people. The editors have done their field work, found new names, done the digging for me. 2. Are not afraid to edit contributors work, or decline solicited or unsolicited material from names that will sell the magazine, if they have seen better work, recently, elsewhere. One of the best things I ever did to increase magazine circulation was to find a company to sponsor a trade mailing of 200 copies back 4 years ago. The issue before & after & the one sent nearly sold out from the mailing & the word was out to pave the way for full-length books, where we, and most small mags usually go with age. Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 12:00:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: A Little Girl Dreams of Taking the Veil / Watten MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It was requested that I forward this announcement to the list. Chris ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 10:37 AM -0500 From: Barrett Watten In the San Francisco Bay Area, don't miss in March: A LITTLE GIRL DREAMS OF TAKING THE VEIL A chamber opera by Erling Wold based on Max Ernst's collage novel, R=E8ve d'une Petite Fille qui Voulut Entrer au Carmel Translated by Dorothea Tanning Directed by Jim Cave Visual design by Amy Claire Trachtenberg Dramaturgy by Carla Harryman featuring Laurie Amat, Ken Berry, Jim Cave, Deborah Gwinn and Rachael = Wylie Chamber orchestra conducted by Deirdre McClure Performances 8:00 PM, March 1-5, 9-12, 2000 At the ODC Theater 3153 17th Street at Shotwell, San Francisco Tickets $18 Reservations 415-863-9834 Whitney Chadwick, author of "Women Artists and the Surrealist Movement" will give a pre-performance talk on Ernst and the Surrealists on Saturday, March 4 at 7 PM at ODC Theater This talk will be free and open to the public In conjunction with the opera, the ODC Gallery will feature an exhibition of collaborative work by Amy Claire Trachtenberg and Carla Harryman "The Games" is a manuscript in image and text tracing the visual messages of waking dreams Exhibit runs March 1-25, 2000 Barrett Watten Associate Professor Department of English Wayne State University 313-577-3067 (w) http://www.english.wayne.edu/~watten/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 12:00:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Late breaking announcement: A Little Girl Dreams / Watten MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It was requested that I forward this announcement to the list. Chris ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 12:15 PM -0500 From: Barrett Watten There will be a certain number of gratis tickets available for the first two performances of A LITTLE GIRL DREAMS OF TAKING THE VEIL, A chamber opera by Erling Wold based on Max Ernst's collage novel, R=E8ve d'une = Petite Fille qui Voulut Entrer au Carmel. The dates are Wednesday and Thursday, March 1-2, 8 PM. Call 415-863-9834 to reserve a free ticket. Barrett Watten Associate Professor Department of English Wayne State University 313-577-3067 (w) http://www.english.wayne.edu/~watten/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 23:47:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard Frey Subject: Daniels, Fried, K&F Band 3/5 1 pm NOTcoffeeHouse 2125 Chestnut Comments: To: citylife@phillynews.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" (NOTcoffeeHouse) Poetry and Performance Series Sunday, March 5, 2000 - 1 pm First Unitarian Church 2125 Chestnut Street Philadelphia, PA 19103 / 215-563-3980 Bring spare clothes for the Poetry Month Clothing Drive! In cooperation with Poetry for the People, "inciting collisions between art & activism," we are celebrating Poetry Month with a ten-week collection of clothes for people living in shelters. In April there will be readings at shelters-stay tuned. Bring extra or outgrown items of clothing to deposit in the Poets Wears Clothing barrel at NOTcoffeeHouse March 5 and April 2. FREE ADMISSION and A SPECIAL HOME-MADE TREAT for every excellent clothing item you bring. Featured Readers: Barbara Daniels' The Woman Who Tries to Believe won the Quentin R.Howard Prize. She recently received an Individual Artist Fellowship from the New Jersey State Council on the Arts. Daisy Fried, a 1998 Pew Fellow in Poetry, won the 1999 Agnes Lynch Starrett Prize from University of Pittsburgh Press, which will publish her first book of poetry, She Didn't Mean To Do It, in its Pitt Poetry Series in October 2000. and New Music The Knife & Fork Band just released Almost Friday Night, their first CD. They will play some of their newest songs and also brand-new collaborations with Daisy Fried $1 admission. Along with a live poetry reading and performance , we invite you to join in our website poetry reading presentation. All poets and performers may have a poem or a lyric featured in theNOTcoffeeHouse website. Send your work for inclusion in the ongoing internet presentation. Tell your friends all over the world to check our site! Poets and performers may submit works for direct posting on the website via email to the webmaster@notcoffeehouse.org or works may be emailed to Richard Frey at richardfrey@dca.net or USPS or hand-delivered through slot at 500 South 25th Street, Philadelphia, PA 19146. More information: Church office, 215-563-3980, Jeff Loo, 546-6381 or Richard Frey, 735-7156. Visit our website at www.notcoffeehouse.org poets & performers previously appearing at NOTcoffeeHouse: Nathalie Anderson, Lisa Coffman, Barbara Cole, Barb Daniels, Linh Dinh, Lori-Nan Engler, Simone Zelitch, Dan Evans, Brenda McMillan, Kerry Sherin, John Kelly Green, Emiliano Martin, Jose Gamalinda, Toshi Makihara, Thom Nickels, Joanne Leva, Darcy Cummings, David Moolten, Kristen Gallagher, Shulamith Wachter Caine, Maralyn Lois Polak, Marcus Cafagna, Ethel Rackin, Lauren Crist, Beth Phillips Brown, Joseph Sorrentino, Frank X, Richard Kikionyogo, Elliott Levin, Leonard Gontarek, Lamont Steptoe, Bernard Stehle, Sharon Rhinesmith, Alexandra Grilikhes, C. A. Conrad, Nate Chinen, Jim Cory, Tom Grant, Gregg Biglieri, Eli Goldblatt, Stephanie Jane Parrino, Jeff Loo, Theodore A. Harris, Mike Magee, Wil Perkins, Deborah Burnham, UNSOUND, Danny Romero, Don Riggs, Shawn Walker, She-Haw, Scott Kramer, Judith Tomkins, 6 of the Unbearables - Alfred Vitale Ron Kolm, Jim Feast, Mike Carter, Sharon Mesmer, Carol Wierzbicki-,John Phillips, Quinn Eli, Molly Russakoff, Peggy Carrigan, Kelly McQuain, Patrick Kelly, Mark Sarro, Rocco Renzetti, Voices of a Different Dream - Annie Geheb, Ellen Ford Mason, Susan Windle - Bob Perelman, Jena Osman, Robyn Edelstein,Brian Patrick Heston, Francis Peter Hagen, Shankar Vedantam, Yolanda Wisher, Lynn Levin, Margaret Holley, Don Silver, Ross Gay, Heather Starr, Magdalena Zurawski ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 11:14:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Larsen Subject: Re: ReMap Query / baron In-Reply-To: <001b01bf7f5e$14c26200$d04e1c26@compaq> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'd like to second Leonard Brink's remarks on the fetishization of >perfect bound journals which >resemble commodities/commercial products of mass reproduction. So much for "loser wins" --the sole material advantage I can see to perfect binding is the spine, which draws the attention of potential consumers away from sewn or stapled chapbooks when displayed on bookstore shelves. Within Poetry World, though, the main thing about perfect binding seems to be that you can't do it in your home, that the actual production of the book is cleanly alienated from the writer. God forbid that you should xerox a book of your *own* poems --and I invite anyone who'd do something so tacky and desperate to present their wares to Small Press Distribution and see what they tell you... The introduction for Renee Gladman's recent Holloway reading with Anne Carson in Berkeley was most telling in this connection --it mentioned her chapbooks, her editorship of Clamour and LeRoy, and then went on to announce that "her first perfect-bound book" is due out soon from Kelsey St. Press. Like that's our guarantee of the work's excellence and value: "a book so good they had it glued!" David Larsen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 14:38:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Lennon Subject: Re: gender MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is tricky. Because 'men don't have it easy either' is still bound to sound disingenuous when uttered by men --- and with good reason. Yet what David says here, responding to Jill and Jamie, speaks to me, at least in part. 'Being a feminist,' as a man, means less 'having a lot of women friends,' in a purely social (and self-congratulatory) sense, than it means acting locally against enculturated tendencies in a process that might be seen as political and psychoanalytic (in the general, not the clinical sense) at the same time. Just as merely 'having black friends' (esp. when 'being friends' means somehow 'not noticing' that they're black) does not get you off the racism hook as (as I am) a white. (And plenty of other thoughts last night, roaming NYC after the Diallo verdict came down from Albany.) Personally I think gender is more and more culture and less and less nature, esp. in what we so tiresomely now call the cyborg and genetic eras. My own social experience is such a confusing jumble of 'feminine' men and 'masculine' women, in addition to 'normal' types, that it's easy --- perhaps too easy --- for me to argue against gender essentialism. (Thoughts after reading Judy's and Elizabeth's latest thoughts on this thread.) Perhaps it's that as an (unapologetic!) academic and native New Yorker, I've dwelled my whole life in habitats that blind me to conditions in the 'real world.' I haven't had a male advisor or mentor since my undergrad days, and my major critical and writerly influences (Perloff, Hayles, Haraway, Drucker, Howe, Retallack, Tardos) are all women. Yet this itself, what I've just said, may be no more than that 'I've got ________ friends'; and it's funny (funny = strange) how easy it is to flatter oneself a boy feminist while still failing to do the real personal work. just a con-fused think --- Brian Lennon -------------------------- Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 18:34:16 -0800 From: David Bromige Subject: Re: gender / Introductions >> structure?) > >here I have a problem: "men have defined... why shd they..." I think as >many a man feels ensnared in this "dominant" culture that has painted >them into a set of roles and actions. I would say most men don't feel >they are the alpha male all around and are often looking over their >shoulder at that bigger fish that's gonna put them in their "place." (A >man's place is working for/trying to please another man?) Men are no >more free-ranging than women in "options," I agree with the author of the above, and would add to that, that a good deal of my energy in this lifetime has gone to attempting to dispel the miasma of malehood they pumped into my nursery and kept on pumping until little by little women--mostly women--pried a window up and started to clear matters up for me (and for themselves, and why not!). It requires a good deal of consciousness and i know i am unconscious most of the time. But I have attempted to show the other side not only to myself but to other men. And now I am glad that Jamie Perez also shows an _other_ side. In this question of gender roles, we all need all the help we can extend and receive. I welcome Jill Stengel's post and, like Jamie, find myself in substantial agreement with what she says. It has everything to do with poetry, which is the theory of heartbreak--which always stems from mistaken assumptions and inability to imagine how it looks from the other's standpoint. David ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 09:37:38 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Subject: Re: gender / Introductions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit no, but I've just read Barbara Risman's Gender Vertigo Yale UP 1998 which has a lot of interesting things to say about gender shifting with circumstance -- e.g. "unwilling " single fathers in "nurturing" roles -- & she also gives a detailed account of families attempting "fair" (I.e. equal & sharing) marriages -- with a close up of the effect of this on gender construction of children of these marriages she also has something to say about method & I noted with some interest (re- Bourdieu on this list recently) that "structural" sociology did not seem to her to meet her needs. She looks to a possibility of a "post gendered" society. I am not enough of a specialist to offer useful criticism or judgements of the book. However it seemed to me that it could be useful to the gender discussions that find place on this list. best Tony Green ---Original Message----- From: Patrick Foley To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Saturday, 26 February 2000 15:31 Subject: Re: gender / Introductions >At 06:34 PM 2/24/00 -0800, David Bromige wrote: > >>[...] a good >>deal of my energy in this lifetime has gone to attempting to dispel the >>miasma of malehood they pumped into my nursery and kept on pumping until >>little by little women--mostly women--pried a window up and started to >>clear matters up for me (and for themselves, and why not!). It requires a >>good deal of consciousness and i know i am unconscious most of the time. >>But I have attempted to show the other side not only to myself but to other >>men. And now I am glad that Jamie Perez also shows an _other_ side. >> >>In this question of gender roles, we all need all the help we can extend >>and receive. > >One book I'd single out as challenging my sense of what masculinity is, is >_Triton_ (now published as _Trouble on Triton_) by Samuel R. Delany. That's >a book whose lessons I think I will be trying to learn the rest of my life. > >Anyone -- or everyone -- else read it? > >Pat > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 23:48:30 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Comments: To: british-poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 6 more issues of Domestic Ambient Noise by Bob Cobbing & Lawrence Upton from Writers Forum s.a.e. / i.r.c. to New River Project, 89a Petherton Road, London N5 2QT Bob Cobbing / Lawrence Upton of extension ISBN 0 86162 941 8 Lawrence Upton / Bob Cobbing damaging gusts ISBN 0 86162 942 6 Bob Cobbing / Lawrence Upton the ness ISBN 0 86162 943 3 Lawrence Upton / Bob Cobbing skochar och skrattar ISBN 0 86162 944 2 Bob Cobbing / Lawrence Upton terms and conditions ISBN 0 86162 945 0 Lawrence Upton / Bob Cobbing life for two third the price ISBN 0 86162 946 9 There have now been 284. Each is £1 plus postage. Those buying in qty offered discounts # 300 will be published 1st April 2000 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 17:06:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: Re: remap gender In-Reply-To: <200002250851.AAA13697@lanshark.lanminds.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >but seriously, haven't men defined it? Elizabeth, I think what Jamie (and I) want to say is, Yes, but it wasnt _us_ . In 1952, I was working on a farm in Sweden. The housekeeper was German. I was English. I found out she hated me because my people had destroyed her hometown, Dresden, so spectacularly. I hadnt even been told about Dresden being destroyed. I was too young to fly a plane, etc. At the same time, I wasnt so fond of Germans, because they had tried to kill me and my people with such earnest application just a few years before. But the housekeeper hadnt been flying one of those planes, either. Best, David ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 05:54:29 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Ellis Subject: Re: 'cultural capital' and 'prestige' Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Jim, "Honest" with respect to what? - one's own practice, or ... ? & how does taking a good look at not knowing what one is doing apply to the selfsame sense of "honesty?" Is it anything like the fright one gets, noticing in the mirror the absolute resemblance between the lines on one's face and the military roads and bunkers dug out of the land of Kosovo? Ignorance is easy to recognize, but really hard to explain. S E >From: Jim Andrews >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: 'cultural capital' and 'prestige' >Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:51:14 -0800 > > > >How does the notion of 'cultural capital' differ from 'prestige'? > > > Neither of these words imply in any way > > the capacity to inspire anyone anywhere > > to take one more breath or step > > > > which is what literary writing bottom line is - for. > >Whether or not this is true, Richard, a good look at the way things go down >in poetryland >is useful in taking the next step. For a poet, anyway. I would rather >understand the whole >story than pretend it doesn't exist. Lots of poets sound like they're >pushing a particular >poetical commodity. In other words, they sound like salespeople. Perhaps >rousing and >eloquent salespeople, but salespeople all the same. And often they don't >see that, they >figure they're on about something else. How can you be honest when you >don't know what >you're doing? So I think that a good look into these things is useful. > >j ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 08:01:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: web premier... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" just rec'd this, fyi... best, joe ------ To Readers, Friends and Visitors: *** FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE *** Date: Current through July, 2000 Place: http://www.bigbridge.org/authors/redslider.htm or (www.jps.net/redslider) Michael Rothenberg's Big Bridge Press, (www.bigbridge.org) cordially invites you to attend the premier world-wide-web showing of Red Slider's installation, -------------- NOGUCHI: THE MAN WHO ENTERED STONE --------------- An assemblage of twenty-eight poems and associated photos, images and commentary celebrating the life and work of Isamu Noguchi and his legacy of sculpted space. Mr. Slider's presentation invites both the first-time casual viewer and the long-time connoisseur alike to regard Noguchi's contribution from an entirely fresh and original vantage of poetry. Ranging >from neo-formalist through haiku to avant collage, these works represent a first installment on Mr. Slider's claim that what history and biography can merely describe poetry may yet be able to embrace. "If one would follow Noguchi into sculpted space," says Mr. Slider, "then they must let go of what they know and let their imagination lead the way." We invite you to walk this hypertext garden, encounter the hushed museums of giggling biomorphs, magical journeys into the vortex of Mu, eavesdrop on a conversation between a dead man and a fellow exile or contemplate the austere silences of an art that can "place stone, so." Whatever your acquaintence with his work, "NOGUCHI: The Man Who Entered Stone" should afford an enriching new experience of America's consumate sculptor of space. You are also invited to provide a link >from your website to the presentation for your visitors. If you would like a special banner for this purpose, please contact us and we will be glad to send you one. We look forward to your visit, Red Slider, poet Michael Rothenberg, Editor and Publisher, Big Bridge Press ------------------------------------- "If it moves you..." - Isamu Noguchi . ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 15:39:22 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alaric Sumner Subject: Audio and Text - Upton/Sumner, Lemke/Jasnoch, Hyde, Frances Comments: To: british-poets@mailbase.ac.uk, poetryetc@mailbase.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable CROSS POSTING ALERT never in a year of sundays presents a special guest night of audio and text at the Kingsbridge Inn, Leechwell Street, Totnes, DEVON, UK 1/3/00 19.30 onwards Admission: =A30.00 featuring; Lawrence Upton/Alaric Sumner Sarah Frances Helmut Lemke/John Jasnoch: 'the long and short of it' Jo Hyde ------------------ this never in a year of sundays special guest night has been conceived and co-ordinated by Gr=B7innie Cullen, Rebecca Eriksson, Gla= d =46ryer, Roddy Hunter and Ciar=B7n Maher. Warm thanks to Roger Bourke, spu and Dartington College of Arts and to all artists who are contributing their own resources. coming soon: never in a year of sundays 5/12: the return to the village hall. ------------------ IA: Inter-regional Annex AI: L'annexe interr=C8gionale Roddy Hunter Julie Bacon 6 Walnut Close 777 Rue des Hospitali=C8res, #66, Totnes TQ9 5GF Chicoutimi G7H 7J3 England. Qu=C8bec. t: +44 (0)1803 868875/840503 + 1 418 543 7362 f: +44 (0)1803 866053 e: r.hunter@dartington.ac.uk jbacon@uqac.uquebec.ca Subscribe to the performance art network electronic forum by sending an e-mail to performance_art_network-subscribe@eGroups.com. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 10:32:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Kelley Subject: Re: the "rigor of humor"/gender MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I still don't know what objective and subjective mean. Meaning: I know the > dictionary meaning but in practice it all seems to collapse in on itself. > But this self/no-self thing seems to have more handles. I thought it was just me (not knowing). I figured my understanding of both terms had been impossibly messed up by the fact of being a woman (object)(subjective)(subject of speculation)(object of worship/derision)(subjective idiot savant). Self/no self : a new frontier! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 12:16:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: web site invite / Marks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message had to be reformatted. Chris -- From: "Steven Marks" Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 16:25:10 -0800 Hello folks, I just put a visual essay on my web site of Joan Retallack's _NOH S'EX_ = which was published by Backwoods Broadsides. Its URL is = www.99main.com/~swmarks/essays.htm In light of the discussion between Jim Andrews and Brian Kim Stefans, = I'd also like to point people again to my Ghostwriting Collages which = appear at www.99main.com/~swmarks/vispo.htm on my site. Click on the = image below Ghostwriting Collages. These collages were made from books = that I ghostwrote for a management consulting company, combined with = images from stock photo books. The majority of my work comes out of my = work. Since I am very interested in how power plays out, I sometimes = wonder if I *didn't* have jobs I either disliked or endured, whether I = would have anything to say or show. Lastly, for a look at current artistic, cultural and economic values, = visit my home page. swmar@99main.com swmar@conncoll.edu For resume and visual poetry: www.99main.com/~swmarks ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 22:33:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII --- Post | Reply | Reply/Quote | Email Reply | Delete | Edit Previous | Next | Previous Topic | Next Topic Topic: iwillbeyou=?I3FQ=3FRE:=5FHomme? Read 0 times Conf: You From: Alan Sondheim (sondheim@panix.com) Date: 28 February 2000 03:30 AM here will i enter text there will i attach file today they watched us from across the street we were on the couch doing things i said to them silently in my mind i will be you _________________________________________________________________ Post New Topic | Reply to: "iwillbeyou=?I3FQ=3FRE:=5FHomme?" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 03:29:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: The Lost Project - Last Call MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII My residency is winding down for trAce so this is a last call for you to submit to the Lost Project - it's at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/lost/ Please do! We'll keep it open a few more days. Also - the ragged appearance of the page is deliberate. You can still submit of course - use the tab key to change fields if you want. You can only submit once per address - that's built-in. Some of the entries are really haunting/beautiful - look at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/lost/lost.cfm - Alan Internet Text at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 22:32:56 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sebast Bomar Subject: Submissions for Evolex Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed The new Evolex is now accepting submissions. details: members.tripod.com/evolex ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 10:24:14 -0700 Reply-To: Laura.Wright@Colorado.EDU Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wright Laura E Subject: Re: ReMap Query / baron In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re: perfect binding / journals we actually read: I *prefer* not-perfect-bound journals, as I'd rather know that the editors(') time and money go into selecting quality, interesting work, rather than looking like a library book. Of course, I like a pretty book, too -- but what's inside has to come first. I think Skanky Possum looks great. Quite honestly, Todd, I seem to subscribe to / buy almost randomly mags that come across my path, often ones that publish my friends. Laura ------------------ "beer makes you stupid beer makes us stupid wine too see me about this later Stupid" --Maureen Owen Laura E. Wright Norlin Acquisitions (303) 492-8457 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 12:40:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: HTML Reminder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit from the Welcome Message: 4. Format of Email Messages - PLEASE READ When sending to the list, please send only "plain text". The use of "styled" text or HTML formatting in the body of messages sent to the list disrupts the Listserv's automatic digest and archive features by adding lengthy passages of markup tags that will not be interpreted from the digest by most email programs or by a web browser when viewing the list archive. Note, however, there is no problem with sending clickable URLs in HTML format. Microsoft Outlook and Netscape Communicator users take note! You may need to specify "plain text" or "ASCII text" or "text only" in the outgoing messages section of your application Preferences. Check your application's Edit | Preferences or Help menus for further details. -- Christopher W. Alexander poetics list moderator ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 09:57:06 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Re: gender In-Reply-To: <003201bf8091$1c9986a0$bd3a3b80@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 2:38 PM -0500 2/26/00, Brian Lennon wrote: > >Personally I think gender is more and more culture and less and less nature, >esp. in what we so tiresomely now call the cyborg and genetic eras. My own >social experience is such a confusing jumble of 'feminine' men and >'masculine' women, in addition to 'normal' types, that it's easy --- perhaps >too easy --- for me to argue against gender essentialism. (Thoughts after >reading Judy's and Elizabeth's latest thoughts on this thread.) Perhaps it's >that as an (unapologetic!) academic and native New Yorker, I've dwelled my >whole life in habitats that blind me to conditions in the 'real world.' I >haven't had a male advisor or mentor since my undergrad days, and my major >critical and writerly influences (Perloff, Hayles, Haraway, Drucker, Howe, >Retallack, Tardos) are all women. Yet this itself, what I've just said, may >be no more than that 'I've got ________ friends'; and it's funny (funny = >strange) how easy it is to flatter oneself a boy feminist while still >failing to do the real personal work. Brian, Thanks for bringing this issue up of gender essentialism. I too have felt uncomfortable here with the use of "gender," which seems to mean the plain old male/female dichotomy that we might see, for instance in a Sandra Dee movie. In the experimental poetry world, particularly here in San Francisco, it seems to me that there is a rigid definition of gender roles. Women with power being powerful *ladies.* If one is not a lady one must either make oneself exotic at parties or be considered a bit freakish. And, yes, there are race and class issues involved in all of this--sorry to mention that hoary thing again. I'm not denying that the world is rampant with sexism, and I'll be the first to admit that there are a lot of asshole guys on this list and in the poetry world and beyond--but I think that the formula of men = oppressors, women = oppressed is simplistic. This is coming from the perspective of someone whose writing project is to present a radical female perspective but who has received encouragement/career help from men--much more so than women. Any theoretical writing that has influenced my writing has been female/feminist, but the women I find who are interested in discussing these sorts of writings are female academics--not poets. I've seen plenty of women censoring other women, and if I'm to be ruthlessly honest, I've done it myself. People are pissy and judgmental and have their own little agendas. Welcome to the world. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 13:43:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Arielle C. Greenberg" Subject: Re: remap + other questions (Maine, P&W) In-Reply-To: <200002250851.AAA13697@lanshark.lanminds.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I think this thread is very useful, in part because it is just informing me of new journals I want to look at and in part because it is bringing up the very relevant and vital issue of how to keep poetics mags surviving. I think that doing it online is, yes, probably very helpful and cheaper and more accessible, but I'm a sucker for a hold-in-your-hand object, especially if it is beautiful (good design -- beautiful in any sense). I therefore love Chain, the Germ (but when is it going to come out again?!), Rhizome, AL&C, Talisman, others. On a related note, has anyone else read the Scharf columns in Poets & Writers? I am really still pretty new to this whole world myself, so maybe other people found the articles (which pretty much delinate the state of experimental poetics, sticking it into two groups, the New Coast group and the Elliptical group) rather lax or misguided or whatever, but for myself, I was very encouraged to see this stuff laid out so clearly and so pro-experiment in something like P&W, and with so much room given to names I don't usually see in there. I was kind of thrilled that h te columns exist, but would love to hear other opinions. I'd also like to hear who is going to be at NEMLA in Buffalo, at poetry of the 60s in Maine, at BoPo this summer. I hardly know any of you by face, and would love to meet up with fellow listers. Backchannel, certainly, if you like. Thanks, Arielle **************************************************************************** "I thought numerous gorgeous sadists would write me plaintive appeals, but time has gone by me. They know where to get better looking boots than I describe." -- Ray Johnson ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 13:48:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kyle Conner Subject: HIGHWIRE READING Comments: To: abdalhayy@aol.com, aberrigan@excite.com, abirge@nimbus.ocis.temple.edu, agil@erols.com, allison_cobb@edf.org, ALPlurabel@aol.com, amorris1@swarthmore.edu, Amossin@aol.com, apr@libertynet.org, avraham@sas.upenn.edu, ayperry@aol.com, Babsubus@aol.com, baratier@megsinet.net, bcole@nimbus.ocis.temple.edu, bdowns@columbiabooks.com, Becker@law.vill.edu, bette343@hotmail.com, bjfoley@aol.com, BMasi@aol.com, bochner@prodigy.net, booglit@excite.com, BStrogatz@aol.com, cahnmann@DOLPHIN.UPENN.EDU, chris@bluefly.com, Chrsmccrry@aol.com, coryjim@earthlink.net, Cschnei978@aol.com, daisyf1@juno.com, danedels@sas.upenn.edu, dburnham@sas.upenn.edu, dcpoetry@mailcity.com, dcypher1@bellatlantic.net, DennisLMo@aol.com, DROTHSCHILD@penguinputnam.com, dsilver@pptnet.com, dsimpson@NETAXS.com, ejfugate@YAHOO.COM, ekeenagh@astro.ocis.temple.edu, ENauen@aol.com, ErrataBlu@aol.com, esm@vm.temple.edu, Feadaniste@aol.com, fleda@odin.english.udel.edu, Forlano1@aol.com, FPR@history.upenn.edu, fuller@center.cbpp.org, GasHeart@aol.com, gbiglier@nimbus.ocis.temple.edu, gmarder@hotmail.com, gnawyouremu@hotmail.com, goodwina@xoommail.com, HighwireGallery@aol.com, hstarr@dept.english.upenn.edu, hthomas@Kutztown.edu, icepalace@mindspring.com, insekt@earthlink.net, ivy2@sas.upenn.edu, jeng1@earthlink.net, jennifer_coleman@edf.org, jimstone2@juno.com, jjacks02@astro.ocis.temple.edu, JKasdorf@mcis.messiah.edu, JKeita@aol.com, jlutt3@pipeline.com, jmasland@pobox.upenn.edu, JMURPH01@email.vill.edu, johnfattibene@juno.com, josman@astro.ocis.temple.edu, jschwart@thunder.ocis.temple.edu, jvitiell@nimbus.ocis.temple.edu, jwatkins@unix.temple.edu, kelly@dept.english.upenn.edu, kelly@COMPSTAT.WHARTON.upenn.edu, Kjvarrone@aol.com, kmcquain@ccp.cc.pa.us, kristing@pobox.upenn.edu, ksherin@dept.english.upenn.edu, kzeman@sas.upenn.edu, lcabri@dept.english.upenn.edu, lcary@dept.english.upenn.edu, leo@isc.upenn.edu, lgoldst@dept.english.upenn.edu, lisewell@worldnet.att.net, llisayau@hotmail.com, lorabloom@erols.com, lsoto@sas.upenn.edu, lstroffo@hornet.liunet.edu, marf@NETAXS.com, matthart@english.upenn.edu, Matthew.McGoldrick@ibx.com, mbmc@op.net, melodyjoy2@hotmail.com, mgpiety@drexel.edu, mholley@brynmawr.edu, michaelmccool@hotmail.com, miyamorik@aol.com, mmagee@dept.english.upenn.edu, mnichol6@osf1.gmu.edu, mollyruss@juno.com, mopehaus@hotmail.com, MTArchitects@compuserve.com, mwbg@YAHOO.COM, mytilij@english.upenn.edu, nanders1@swarthmore.edu, nawi@citypaper.net, odonnell@siam.org, penwaves@mindspring.com, pla@sas.upenn.edu, poetry4peeps@hotmail.com, putnamc@washpost.com, QDEli@aol.com, rachelmc@sas.upenn.edu, rdupless@vm.temple.edu, rediguanas@erols.com, repohead@rattapallax.com, richardfrey@dca.net, robinh5@juno.com, ron.silliman@gte.net, SeeALLMUSE@aol.com, sernak@juno.com, Sfrechie@aol.com, singinghorse@erols.com, stewart@dept.english.upenn.edu, subpoetics-l@hawaii.edu, susan.wheeler@nyu.edu, SusanLanders@YAHOO.COM, swalker@dept.english.upenn.edu, Ron.Swegman@mail.tju.edu, Tasha329@aol.com, tdevaney@brooklyn.cuny.edu, thorpe@sas.upenn.edu, tosmos@compuserve.com, travmar03@msn.com, twells4512@aol.com, upword@mindspring.com, v2139g@vm.temple.edu, vhanson@netbox.com, vmehl99@aol.com, wh@dept.english.upenn.edu, wvanwert@nimbus.ocis.temple.edu, wwhitman@libertynet.org, ywisher@hotmail.com, zurawski@astro.temple.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ??????????????????????????? HIGHWIRE GALLERY 139 NORTH 2ND STREET (above Nexus Gallery) PHILADELPHIA 8:00 PM SATURDAY MARCH 4, 2000 $5 Suggested Donation B E T S Y F A G I N and A A R O N L E V Y ************************************************************************ SOME THINGS YOUR CURATORS THINK YOU SHOULD KNOW Last reading: Lee Ann Brown sang a capella mountain songs. She also sent a family storming out during the reading of a very explicit sexy poem. Daniel Abd al-Hayy Moore performed Millenial Prognostications. He played two auto-harps, some xylophones, drums, and other wooden instruments. He had some half-dozen books and tapes for sale. Both poets rocked the house and challenged the expectations of many who are used to seeing a head speak from behind a podium. Other News: Frank Sherlock came to up to the St. Mark's Poetry Project with a posse. I've seen so much beer and black leather at the Poetry Project. He reminded the New York scene that Phila is a tough town and has some serious poets. He pulled the mic off the stand and stepped away from the podium to deliver some heavy verse, alot of it from memory. And I quote second-hand, Lisa Lubasch, "Frank, he's tough. I like that." Jena Osman gave a great introduction to Robert Creeley's reading at the Temple Gallery on Thursday. She poses a serious challenge to Kyle and I. Creeley was superb, especially when he spoke extemporaneoulsy about poetry careers. Kyle Conner and Greg Fuchs *************************************************************************** *********** POETS: Betsy Fagin lives happily in Brooklyn. She has work in recent issues of Lungfull!, Bivouac, and Mungo vs. Ranger. More work will be appearing in 5 Fingers Review, Cunning, and The San Jose Manual Of Style. Physical Culture is her third self-published chapbook. John Colletti says, "Betsy is dope. She really gets the snack on." starting over (number of years that the U.S. military has been using video games to train soldiers to kill=11) women with guns on their heads I mean children's heads their minds in summer school glitched heads transposed play real life video games with heads on face killing in their eyes their faces shot off face dead children's faces in video games Aaron Levy lives in the Kelly Writers House. He coordinates, records, and Web casts many of their events. His new chapbook Windore (Handwritten Press, 2000) will be available. He serves as an editor for OTHER VOICES The (e)Journal of Cultural Criticism http://dept.english.upenn.edu/~ov The fourth issue is ON GENOCIDE. Commentaries include Forbidding the "G-Word": Holocaust Denial and Judicial Doctrine in Canada by Ward Churchill, Zbigniew Libera's Lego Concentration Camp: Iconoclasm in Conceptual Art About the Shoah by Stephen Feinstein, among others. Septmember 11 - I was there and it would be wrong to say I did not know what to do. I was floating in the crowd that bore me without ever knowing what it was doing. "I'm left with the fact that I know many more humna beings than I require to continue living among them, and there will always be between them and me this useless knowledge." all at once we feel comforted. we must remeind poeple more often that they are people. someone will always sell you for thirty pieces of silver, when suddenly in the crowd you meet a human glance. he begins to write the day war is declared. all the while appearing to resemble, it nonetheless does not resemble. ___________________________________________________ were it not a denial so much as an amendment? he must throw away the window, after he has climbed through it. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 09:20:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Texas-bound Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I am going to be reading in Durant, Oklahoma (3/9), Ft. Worth (3/10), and Dallas (3/11). If you would like more details, contact me directly. If anyone on the list is in the area, I'd be pleased to hear from you! http://www.sosu.edu/al/ehl/announce.htm http://www.star-telegram.com/homes/writersgarret/bernstein.html Charles Bernstein ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 14:05:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: www.instress.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anybody know what's up with this site? It seems to be down, to have been down for several days now. I want to link it to my mag, but can't get there! Is it being moved? Or just down for a bit? Thanks! Gary ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:27:51 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Subject: Re: gender MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dodie -- you might find Barbara Risman's book I mentioned yesterday -- Gender Vertigo Yale, 1998 -- useful. she also refers to writing by Sandra L. Bem on gender categories -- of which Bem in 1995 theorizes at least 18 -- instead of 2. ( In her bibliography Risman notes: Sandra L.Bem The Lenses of Gender: transforming the debate on sexual inequality. Yale 1993. & in Journal of Sex Research 32:4 , 1995 Bem: "Dismantling gender polarization & compulsory heterosexuality: should we turn the volume up or down"? (I havent read these) Risman comments p.160, after listing 18 possibilities of gender, & clearly wanting to extend the possibilities : "My view of gender as infinitely more plastic and complex than a three-category variable makes Bem's proposition overwhelming. How would the math work(gender x sex x sexual identity) when we realize that there are dozens of femininities and masculinities in our culture? For how gender gets done varies dramatically by class, ethnicity, race, region, and age. Still, the notion of exploding categories and allowing much more creativity in self-presentation feels more like liberation than does the deemphasizing of gender than we now pleasure ourselves by doing". (Is that last sentence an echo of M.Foucault?) best Tony Green From: Dodie Bellamy To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Tuesday, 29 February 2000 08:17 Subject: Re: gender >At 2:38 PM -0500 2/26/00, Brian Lennon wrote: >> >>Personally I think gender is more and more culture and less and less nature, >>esp. in what we so tiresomely now call the cyborg and genetic eras. My own >>social experience is such a confusing jumble of 'feminine' men and >>'masculine' women, in addition to 'normal' types, that it's easy --- perhaps >>too easy --- for me to argue against gender essentialism. (Thoughts after >>reading Judy's and Elizabeth's latest thoughts on this thread.) Perhaps it's >>that as an (unapologetic!) academic and native New Yorker, I've dwelled my >>whole life in habitats that blind me to conditions in the 'real world.' I >>haven't had a male advisor or mentor since my undergrad days, and my major >>critical and writerly influences (Perloff, Hayles, Haraway, Drucker, Howe, >>Retallack, Tardos) are all women. Yet this itself, what I've just said, may >>be no more than that 'I've got ________ friends'; and it's funny (funny = >>strange) how easy it is to flatter oneself a boy feminist while still >>failing to do the real personal work. > >Brian, > >Thanks for bringing this issue up of gender essentialism. I too have >felt uncomfortable here with the use of "gender," which seems to mean >the plain old male/female dichotomy that we might see, for instance >in a Sandra Dee movie. > >In the experimental poetry world, particularly here in San Francisco, >it seems to me that there is a rigid definition of gender roles. >Women with power being powerful *ladies.* If one is not a lady one >must either make oneself exotic at parties or be considered a bit >freakish. And, yes, there are race and class issues involved in all >of this--sorry to mention that hoary thing again. > >I'm not denying that the world is rampant with sexism, and I'll be >the first to admit that there are a lot of asshole guys on this list >and in the poetry world and beyond--but I think that the formula of >men = oppressors, women = oppressed is simplistic. This is coming >from the perspective of someone whose writing project is to present a >radical female perspective but who has received encouragement/career >help from men--much more so than women. Any theoretical writing that >has influenced my writing has been female/feminist, but the women I >find who are interested in discussing these sorts of writings are >female academics--not poets. > >I've seen plenty of women censoring other women, and if I'm to be >ruthlessly honest, I've done it myself. People are pissy and >judgmental and have their own little agendas. Welcome to the world. > >Dodie > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 22:46:17 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: I'd love to see you, stop by MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit David Baratier will read the following places: U Pitt @ Greensburg Friday, March 17th, 7pm Village Hall PHILLY Saturday, March 18th, 8PM Highwire Gallery, 139 N. 2nd St., Philadelphia DC Sunday, March 19th, 3 p.m. at the DC Arts Center 2438 18th street in the Adams Morgan neighborhood of DC 18th street just below Columbia Road. http://home.earthlink.net/~dcpoetry/ NYC St Marks Poetry Project Monday, March 27th, 8pm w/ Brenda Shaughnessy http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.html & before I leave Ohio at: Writer's Voice YMCA, 65 S. 4th St., 2nd Floor Friday, March 3rd, 12:30 pm or stop by Larry's open, 2040 N. High St. Monday, March 13th, 7pm 2nd edition of _Fall of Because_ party & send off Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 21:32:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: remap Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Todd, Hey I forgot to plug my subscriptions to Raddle Moon and The Germ, mags which I hereby plug. I don't know how much reply I got to Outlet's interview with Kathleen Fraser or Marcella Durand's history of women publishers around the PoProj, yet somehow just having put them out there makes me happy. I assume someone somewhere is reading them.....the issue sold out at least. ET ___________________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell Double Lucy Books & Outlet Magazine http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 21:56:57 -0800 Reply-To: jim@vispo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: 'cultural capital' and 'prestige' MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Jim, > "Honest" with respect to what? - one's own practice, or ... ? yes. > & how does > taking a good look at not knowing what one is doing apply to the selfsame > sense of "honesty?" Sometimes we don't know what we're doing or why. Sometimes we find out. Who would unknow what they know? > Is it anything like the fright one gets, noticing in > the mirror the absolute resemblance between the lines on one's face and the > military roads and bunkers dug out of the land of Kosovo? > Ignorance is easy > to recognize, but really hard to explain. An analysis of the economy of 'cultural capital' or 'prestige' might make its workings more explicit rather than circulating via, what, the 'subterfuges' that it normally circulates in? I haven't read all of the correspondence involving this term on the list. But what I did read by Jacques Debrot I found interesting and am sorry to see that it isn't happening any more, though I understand there was a big blow up about it. Not sure what your objections have been to discussing this topic, if that's how it has been. Raising the subject itself needn't imply an attack on poets and poetry. I didn't really get the impression that's what Jacques Debrot was doing. How is 'cultural capital' different from 'prestige'. There have been several replies to my simple question, but none that attempted to answer it. Regards, Jim Andrews ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:30:47 -0000 Reply-To: suantrai@iol.ie Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "L. MacMahon and T.R. Healy" Subject: Wild Honey Press: Apologies for Cross Posting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit New From Wild Honey Press, 16a Ballyman Road, Bray, County Wicklow, Ireland. e-mail: suantrai@iol.ie Blackwards Rosmarie Waldrop Faint Optimism Keith Waldrop The Pillar Mairéad Byrne Untitled Sequence Peter Riley All chapbooks are hand sewn and have a card cover with a colour illustration. Visa or Mastercard accepted. P&p free in Ireland and Britain. Overseas orders please indicate if you'd like to be charged economy or priority rate. Blackwards Rosmarie Waldrop 24 pp, 14x21 cm, £3.50 / $5.00, ISBN 1 903090 15 6 A set of nine linked prose poems in which an elegant and sinuous syntax embraces an extraordinary range of reference while maintaining a deceptively smooth narrative flow. " Yes, the human organism is such a marvel of clockwork that desire risks whirlpools and shallows. In the mirror, her words palpitated, and amniotic fluid became an incurable want. Albinos have been regarded with superstitious awe; white steeds, much admired. Fear of masturbation took him as far into Africa as the Niger. Thought is so little incompatible with organized matter that it seems rather one of its properties, on a par with geometry. The apple she ate was satin green, sharp, sweet. By contrast albinism is white and never opened. Her soul sat in her brain, substituting inner for space. If only Ibn Batuta had known the value of experiment in addition to observation, he would have cupped his hands, as around a breast." Faint Optimism Keith Waldrop 20 pp, 10x15 cm, £2.00 / $3.00, ISBN 1 903090 A set of fifteen linked poems, written in a spare and minimalist style. The degree of formal invention achieved with this reduced palette is striking. " imaginary alphabets amorous a- morphous modulation a menace neglected sources of admiratio" The Pillar Mairéad Byrne 12 pp, 14 x 21 cm, £3.50 / $5.00, ISBN 1 903090 21 0 Nelson's pillar, one of Dublin's best loved monuments, was blown up by the I.R.A. in 1966. This poem explores the rich layers of associations that accumulated on it. " Woolworths was a box of light. On the bright side looking out you could see the streaked street, plate glass doors like a fresco, Jackson Pollock maybe on a dark day or better still the tubes of paint themselves, melting. On the inside Hopper but all pastels. Or the Gobi Desert. There was no shade. Fluorescence had the say-so; boy how it swam across the insulated ceilings from the steaming entrance to the back of the store where you got your picture taken with no front teeth. How it lit with one blast the whole shebang; it was horizontal and vertical, spilled like a sheet down and in and out and on the downy heads of the assistants with their warm crests of hair. Or the hoity toity girls at make-up, maxfactored or revloned, their perfect fingers tapping, one mascaraed eye on the clock, or on the mirror where it tilted on the counter-top, reflecting glass and chrome glass and chrome all the way back to where I stood in my mittens in my knitted bobble-cap the two pounds ten for presents in the póca of mo chóta my toggle coat Untitled Sequence Peter Riley 16 pp, 14x21 cm, £3.50 / $5.00, ISBN 1 903090 16 4 A sequence of 10 poems, first published in 1977 in Peter Robinson's Perfect Bound. A narrative concerning a touring production of Macbeth by a college dramatic society is the pretext for a series of wonderful flights of philosophy, wit and lyricism. "Wind seeps through cracks in the park and woos the inner female. Fanned into a state of glowing consolation the chemical maiden opens her arms. Can this be right? Such assiduity for so long produced nothing worth scrapping over and then when I'd turned aside given up & officially retired the whole place came crashing at my feet again devoid of snares. I sink into the armchair and critically regard the stained fountains in the Hotel Lounge: they are delightful, so are the potted plants. Sometimes I like myself very much and think I'd make a first-rate detective. Except for the bits that involve courage. and expertise. and enthusiasm for the whole thing. Tonight we'll make love in a novel by Joyce Cary where it can't but be good." Visit the Sound Eye website at: http://indigo.ie/~tjac/sound_eye_hme.htm or find more Irish writing at: http://www.nd.edu/~ndr/issues/ndr7/contents.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 06:06:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: The Lost site Lost MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The Lost Project was lost for the past couple of days, because the server was down for the webpage. First, I want to apologize for this - and second, ask that you go to http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/lost/ and submit again ... Alan, thanks - Internet Text at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Partial at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 11:48:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: P O E T I C $ In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit AAP/P&W: ACADEMY OF AMERICAN POETASTERS / POETASTERS & WHACKS Electronic Newsletter #32 . February 2000 . Rita Fondue, Ed. AGENTS "FOR $100 I WILL SIT ON YOUR MANUSCRIPT FOR FIVE WEEKS!"(TM). No strings. Manuscripts about animals, proverbs, family, Frank O'Hara, "summer themes," line art, simultaneous submissions -- anything and everything -- now sought. Send check or money order for $100 (made out to "cash") plus two or three copies of manuscript. SASE gets you photo of view out the window of my summer cabin in Maine. Agent Orange, P.O. Box 941480B, Orange County, CA 91028-1480. CONTESTS THE ACADEMY OF AMERICAN POETASTERS in conjunction with POETASTERS & WHACKS announces its seventy second Hugh Helfwetter Laid Paper(TM) broadside contest. Send 1 page of poetry, title page (name, address, phone, e-mail), bio, acknowledgments, three letters of reference from arts administrators in the field and $25 entry fee (includes copy of winning broadside), and SASE for results. No mss will be returned. Deadline: February 29. Winner receives 30 copies. No further guidelines needed. Send entry to AAP/P&W, Poetasters Alley, New York, NY 10032. For copy of 1999 winner, send $6 to above address. PROMOTIONAL OPPORTUNITIES EVERYBODY'S ON OPRAH, a non-profit organization dedicated to matching authors with topics of upcoming Oprah shows, will help you promote your book, magazine, hair product or pet. Send $25 and SASE (for info-pak) to: NMW, Room Z, P.O. Box 2222463, Knoxious, TN 37932. Web site: www.oprahmatch.org. MANUSCRIPTS WANTED THE DRIFTWOOD REVIEW, Alaska's oldest quartlerly, seeks poetry, fiction, criticism, art submissions for the Spring theme: "At the Century's End: A Look Back at Modernism and Its Continuing Influences on Eskimo Culture." Send with SASE: Driftwood Review, Driftwood Center, P.O. Box 3049, 7800 89 St. NW, Ancorage, AK 99991. Phone: (265) 555-7288. Fax: (265) 555-6102. E-mail: driftwood@glpwu.edu. CREATIVE WRITING DEGREES DEAD BEAT COLLEGE offers Bachelor of Arts degrees in Attaining Buhddahood, Pollution Studies, Interdisciplinary Studies (Dance/Cooking, Visual Arts/Candle Making, New Music/Psychology, etc.), Contemplative Birdwatching, and Beat Writing. Faculty includes Jack Kerouec (Ph.D. 1993 U. Minn.), William Burrows-Wilson (M.Phil. 1986 SF State) and Alain Ginsbourgh (Ph.D. 1995 U. Texas). For more information about admissions procedures, visiting the campus or specific programs, call the Admissions Office at 303-555-4398 or 1-800-555-6758 outside of Colorado; email: admissions@deadbeat.edu. WORKSHOPS "Craft-consciousness"(TM) and the "Words Willing"(R) Method will give you a stronger sense of what words are and their preferred order on the page, with Slapping the Innermost Voice workshops lead by Eileen Chevalier-Addonnizio. Small groups, private consultations. First-class indoctrination, reasonable tuition. See Web site: www.trapvoice.edu or write Trapping, P.O. Box 86505, Adumbra, CA 98543, or info4@slapvoice.edu. CREATIVE WRITING teachers wanted for Everybody's a Writer Workshop, New York State's largest creative writing school. College-level creative writing pogram indoctrination preferred. No interest in literature required (will train). Subjects include: friction, novel ideas, writing for Hollywood, cootie-catchers, Broadway Bound!, pandering to the children's book market, nonfriction, memoist, writing laugh tracks for sitcoms, paper dolls, poetasting, and sketchy comedy. Fax or mail resumé. (518) 555-4433 x. 3923 or 9841 Amsterdam-Columbus, Ste. 3809, New Plains, NY 10051. Attn: Adam Sex. Web site: www.everybody2write.org. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 17:16:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dickison Subject: ** Wang Ping reading at The Poetry Center ** Thurs March 2 ** Comments: To: Tina Rotenberg Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable POETRY CENTER 2000 The Poetry Center & American Poetry Archives presents WANG PING Thursday afternoon March 2, 4:30 pm, free @ The Poetry Center, SFSU San Francisco =3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3D Syntax She walks to a table She walk to table She is walking to a table She walk to table now What difference does it make What difference it make In Nature, no completeness No sentence really complete thought Language, like woman Look best when free, undressed =3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3D WANG PING was born in Shanghai, China, and graduated from Beijing University in 1984. She moved to the US the following year and earned her doctorate from New York University. Affiliated with The Poetry Project at St. Marks Church in New York, Ms. Wang is a poet, fiction writer, and translator. Coffee House Press (Minneapolis) published her three books: American Visa (stories, 1994), Foreign Devil (a novel, 1996), and Of Flesh & Spirit (poetry, 1998). Most recently she edited an anthology of contemporary Chinese poets that features the generation of younger poets who have emerged in the past twenty years, during a period of tumultuous change in China. New Generation: Poems from China Today (1999, Hanging Loose Press, New York) also presents a remarkable collaboration in translation between Ms. Wang and a host of prominent American poets (including Ron Padgett, David Shapiro, Richard Sieburth, Murat Nemet-Nejat, Anne Waldman, Lyn Hejinian, Keith Waldrop, and others). Wang Ping has recently moved from New York to St. Paul, Minnesota, where she teaches at Macalester College. Her historical-critical work on Chinese footbinding is forthcoming from the University of Minnesota Press. "A cultural treasure, an heroic person, and the first great poet of the new millennium." --Lewis Warsh =3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx Connecticut Muffin On Seventh Avenue in Park Slope, on the bench outside the bakery store, my ex-lover watched my son draping over my breasts that bulge with blue veins--a map of rivers-- milk sprayed across his face like baby pearls. "I wouldn't have thrown such tantrums If my mother had nursed me," he said suddenly. Then he wept, his hand on my lap. =3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3Dx=3D THE POETRY CENTER is located in Humanities 512 on the SW corner of the San Francisco State University Campus, 1600 Holloway Avenue 2 blocks west of 19th Avenue on Holloway take MUNI's M Line to SFSU or from Daly City BART free shuttle or 28 bus The Poetry Center's programs are supported by funding from the National Endowment for the Arts, the California Arts Council, Grants for the Arts-Hotel Tax Fund of the City of San Francisco, Poets & Writers, Inc., and The Fund for Poetry, as well as by the Dean of the College of Humanities at San Francisco State University, and by donations from our members. Join us! This event is supported by Poets & Writers, Inc., through a grant it has received from The James Irvine Foundation. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Steve Dickison, Director The Poetry Center & American Poetry Archives ~ San Francisco State Univers= ity 1600 Holloway Avenue ~ San Francisco CA 94132 ~ 415-338-3401 ~ ~ ~ L=E2 taltazim h=E2latan, wal=E2kin durn b=EE-llay=E2ly kam=E2 tad=FBwru Don't cling to one state turn with the Nights, as they turn ~Maq=E2mat al-Hamadh=E2ni (tenth century; tr Stefania Pandolfo) ~ ~ ~ Bring all the art and science of the world, and baffle and humble it with one spear of grass. ~Walt Whitman's notebook ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 02:28:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jamie Crawford Organization: ASHAJALA Subject: Live Anthology MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; x-mac-creator=4D4F5353; x-mac-type=54455854; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello all, I'm quite new to the list, so won't be jumping into any discussions at the moment. However, I wanted to let you know what's going on in my small universe. I'm a student at Tufts University and have been putting together an Intercollegiate Literary Society (ILS) this year. So far we've got seven schools intimately involved and at least four others looking to jump into the fray. I'll happily describe this endeavor in more detail to anyone and eveyone interested. If you are associated with any university, I would love to hear your thoughts on the matter and to involve your school. In the meantime, ILS in its present state is holding its first event: Live Anthology Thursday, March 2nd 7:30 PM Adams House (lower common room) Plympton Street Harvard Square Cambridge, MA Representative readers from BC, BU, Brandeis, Harvard, MIT, Northeastern, and Tufts will be reading. There will be an open-mic session and refreshments. Please contact me any time for more information on ILS in general or specifically the Live Anthology: Jamie Crawford by phone: (617) 627-7723 by e-mail: jcrawf01@tufts.edu Thanks so much, j ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 00:21:36 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerrold Shiroma Subject: Re: ReMap Query / baron MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is true that anthologies sometimes tend to publish those writers already "known", & it is possible that many important writers fall through the cracks. At the same time, however, there are a number of anthologies that are incredible eye-openers (I'm thinking of Wang Ping's _New Generation_, Ammiel Alcalay's _Keys to the Garden_, two different anthologies of Mexican poetry--poetry that is not often enough made available to American readers--by Juvenal Acosta & Forrest Gander--not to mention Jen Hofer's upcoming anthology, which I am eagerly awaiting, or think of Kent Johnson's Russian anthology when it came out...it did fill an important gap, & brought attention to a wonderfully diverse range of writers), & in this sense, I can only hope that the input from "other" poetries can help (as Patrick Durgin pointed out) open up the terrain, so to speak, as to what exactly "innovation" means, or can mean. But perhaps the focus should be not simply on whether or not anthologies of work in translation are read, but is work in translation is read *at all*, & if so, why, if not, why. Given that on this list we can come across quotes from (or references to) theorists almost daily, why not the same attention paid to the poets, or even the poet's poetics? Anyway, is just a thought. Bests, Jerrold ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 13:22:41 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM Subject: Bridge Street Reading March 5th MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good one! Sunday March 5 @ 8 PM Tim Davis & Katy Lederer Bridge Street Books 2814 Pennsylvania Ave NW Washington DC ph 202 965 5200 5 blocks from the Foggy Bottom Metro, near the Four Seasons, in Georgetown. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:47:38 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Gream? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I'm passing this question on from Linh Dinh who is living in Saigon these days. Does anybody know the answer to this question. You can back- or forward channel the answer directly to me. I've already asked the person I know with the largest vocabulary and he was stumped also. Ron ------------------- Dear Ron, I talked to Hoang Hung, a man who's trying to translate Ginsberg's Kaddish into Vietnamese, and he was stumped on one word. He asked me what "gream" is? I said, How the fuck do I know? Do you know what that word means? Please let me know if you do. I think Vietnamese readers deserve a kaddish. Thanks, Linh ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 14:00:09 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: cultural capital and prestige MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Jim Andrews said that noone had answered his question so I will try to do so very simplistically: How is cultural capital different from prestige? A well educated reader from a background in which books are read could be said to have cultural capital. In other words, he or she has the cultural baggage needed to read, say, difficult modernist poetry. A work or author that possessed value, according to those who possessed this cultural capital, would accordingly have prestige. I might have cultural capital as a reader without enjoying a high degree of prestige as a poet, for example. Jonathan Mayhew jmayhew@ukans.edu _____________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 14:26:45 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: poetry in translation (was Re-map query/Baron) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ""1) What anthologies / collections / etc. of poetry in translation have you recently purchased. 2) Does the work of poets from other countries (specifically non-English speaking countries) have any importance to your own work. 3) What purpose does, or should, the publication of works in translation have, if any. I don't want to sound like I am complaining, but am feeling somewhat discouraged by the whole thing, & wonder if anyone actually cares for, or is interested in, works in translation."" I don't find reading poetry in translation very satisfying as a general rule, and am troubled by the ready acceptance of shoddy translations. Since professionally I read Spanish poetry constantly, I rarely look at translations. Everyone always asks me why I am not a translator, and I think that this will be my eventual path. Very little Spanish poetry after Hernandez and Lorca has been translated, and seeing some existing versions makes me think I could do much better. I still distrust translation as a matter of principle though. More often than not it establishes a sentimental relation to the original text. In other words, I have to assume that Rilke is a great poet in order to slog through some turgid English version. I attribute the defects to the translator while extending a line of credit to Rilke. It drives me crazy because I don't know what I'm reading after a while... This being said, I think I have much less "translation tolerance" than others, and my sense is that there is a great hunger for good translations. Jonathan Mayhew jmayhew@ukans.edu _____________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 15:47:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Stefans, Brian" Subject: Re: 'cultural capital' and 'prestige' Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I think one of the problems with Jacques analysis, which he has acknowledged, is that he was using terms from Pierre Bourdieu which are very specific to the contexts of PB's argument, one element of which has to do with "subjective" and "objective" analysis of cultural phenomenon. Having finally read the great PB, a book called The Logic of Practice, which concerns mostly an analysis of Algerian culture, I realize the difficulty in applying these terms, or at least the difficulty in not using the terminology with a sensitivity to certain issues PB raises, such as that of time. He contrasts an "objective" analsys, which tends to render things in a "mechanical" way -- A does A, it means B, therefore A becomes elevated to state of A to the B power, hence a new A -- when there is really something much more fluid and contingent involved, especially in those instances where A deviates from the norms, hence the meaning of "B" cannot be easily determined via some static paradigm but must, in a sense, alter the paradigm to make way for new meanings, or irresolutions of meanings that flatten out elsewhere. (This "paradigm" is, in Bourdieu's terms, the "habitus," in another's the episteme, there are several variations with their specific meanings.) Anyway, this is an oversimplification, but his example Jackson Mac Low and awards, reception, etc., seemed to lay out a too flat background on which JM's activities were enacted, not recognizing the deviations in the activity, the unpredictable elements, the alternate outcomes, etc. -- which, again, I think Jacques acknowledged. So the question of how "cultural capital" and "prestige" differ would be a different question based on how much you tie the former term into Bourdieu -- in layman's terms, they are probably very synonymous, but "cultural capital" -- as in, say, the case of Jean Genet -- could confilict with any notion of "prestige" that we know of, and yet, in a realm in which deviations from the norms of cultural engagment possesses positive value (as in artistic circles with fairly recognizable standards, as much as they conflict with the "mainstream," say in Cocteau's circle), the terms may very well become synonymous again, though not as static or ossified. A Genet could operate with some confidence that his works were entering into the field of literature not entirely unnoticed, not entirely without precidents, and yet also work with the knowledge that he was deviating quite strongly from the norms, though in meaningful ways (perhaps his syntax gave him some confidence along these lines, hence freeing him up to investigate other darknesses). Not everyone pulls this off, of course -- the rather antique looking modernism of, say, Williams circle, as Jacques pointed out, looks rather silly or strange to us today, yet at the time we can believe that these writers thought some sort of axis of deviation and acceptance was operating, hence the "self-interest" which he, Jacques, writes of is present even in the "vanguard" which, we generally believe (as in Van Gogh) had not faith in the system -- there was probably more of this faith than we realize. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 13:54:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: gender essentially tacky Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear David B, I wasn't blaming _you_ (yall). Just trying to put fingers on things, which as ever requires a certain dumbing-down of one's experience, as I, like Brian, and I'm sure many others here, live in a social context that is, well, for another cliche, diverse(/confusing/thrilling/irritating/!-home), and always have. Still, essentials have their place in trying to understand the world, if not in writing POETRY, at least, for me, in writing POSTS to POETIX. And I would argue still that this list is a bit of a male bastion, tho I have a separate set of complaints about the women's poetry list. What do I do about it? Speak up and get in trouble if necessary; sound like a careless brat, which, some days I am. Who said pubbing one's own work was tacky? Well, I have done so. So. So did a lot of people we now respect. Like Gertrude Stein and Virginia Woolf (not that I'm them, duh); like what went on with James Joyce and Sylvia Beach? (not that I;m them). That relation verges on, well, tacky to me. Anyhow, I did it once, and I just did it again as the Milk Bees in Dlb's Lucille series (PLUG). Did it for fun (cliche essentialism agin ohno! toto) and for my new niece. (I'm sure some are barfing at this sentimental gesture.) But don't worry I also have written some other things other people have printed; don't worry I also publish other people in much vaster numbers than I do myself. Am I tacky or paranoid? Self-serving? OH WELL. The work 'll stand or fall, as ever. I liked what Gary said about what sustains one as a pubber/editor -- and I love seeking out new writers, doing that research. (Todd, Please send me the Remap! I've been waiting for months!) Back to David B, Charles Bukowski has a similar story in his novel Post Office, where he actually confronts the person blaming him (black postal colleague) and says his folks were in Germany during US slave times. (But then isn't he still getting the benefits , such as they are, of being white, right then and there?) (I am white -- or at least have the "benefit" (experience?) of looking so -- in case this has not been obvious in my obsession with gender to the obliquing of race -- tho I say that more as -- well, it's too confusing to ramble into -- I'm a mix (and who cares here but me)) But even those on the margins will have their prejudices, and why not, we're all human. I'm just grateful not to have been flogged for admitting I only read mags with a chunk of women authors. (Or maybe no one reads my posts.) And I love Bukowski for his prejudices, not despite them, tho I wouldn't have dated the guy (nor he me no doubt). For another completely obvious comment. XXX -- fearing all I've said -- Eliz. ___________________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell Double Lucy Books & Outlet Magazine http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 14:12:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: ps on bukowski Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ...when i say "i love him for his prejudices" i am thinking in particular of a very harsh rendering of women speaking in one of his proses. it's funny and real to me and takes me into a tangent of experience not my own,--essentialised / cliched perhaps as the other. Charles Bukowski is my muse! (JOKE) I'm thinking of renaming my computer's "shortcut to email" "highway to hell". XX ET ___________________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell Double Lucy Books & Outlet Magazine http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 13:26:21 -0800 Reply-To: katie@degentesh.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Katie Degentesh Organization: Pretty good Subject: digital publishing opportunity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Excuse me while I duck into the phone booth and slip on my corporate wetsuit, but this poet just happens recently to have taken an editing job at a digital publisher who's currently in the process of soliciting work from poets. The deal is this: you convert your stuff (for instance, a collection of unpublished or previously published-by-a-press-who-is-willing-to-let-you-reproduce-them poems, or digital archives of the online journal that you edit) into Adobe PDF format. You upload the title to the web site, set your price, and provide author info. and summary info. for the document (this can include images and sample poems). People can then pay via credit card to download your stuff and print it out. You get fifty percent of the profits, and the company (Fatbrain.com) gets fifty percent. Right now there's not much literary content on the site (they're a technical bookseller), but Fatbrain wants to revamp it and is going after poets, some of whom are expressing interest. At the end of the month / beginning of next, they're planning to launch a big advertising blitz surrounding the site, and they want to push National Poetry Month as part of this. Even though I work for them, I actually think Fatbrain's providing an interesting opportunity, which is part of the reason I'm willing to post this and take the risk of getting my real life entangled with my day-job life. The other part? If I can get poets like you people to publish on it, then my day job will become that much more interesting ... If you're interested, or know someone who may be interested, please contact me backchannel at my work address (katied@fatbrain.com) or, if you want to keep the conversation more informal, at my earthlink account (degentesh@earthlink.net). Thanks! Katie Degentesh