========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 11:56:26 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Igor Satanovsky Subject: Re: Alan (Ms.) Jennifer Sondheim LEADER OF THE PACK Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << Syntactical work has been all over the place - Jochen Gerz comes to mind; I wasn't certainly claiming originality, but instead works that fit in with my general concerns; for example the coding of the last in which the four # stand in for a sliding economy /work/fuck/kill otherwise lost in the shuffle. Alan>> Bob Grumman kindly reminded me about another contribution to punctuation poetry, a poem called "The Party" by Canadian poet George Swede. Here is an excerpt from Bob's essay ("Notes on the Taxonomy of Visual Poetry and Related Species of Art" for *Eye-Rhymes*, University of Alberta, June 1997) , discussing that work: "What about George Swede's "The Party" . . . ? Swede's work has no verbal elements--or does it? Should ampersands, dollar signs, questions marks, and various kinds of other typographical symbols count as verbal? It's a hazy taxonomical area . . . I would call "The Party" a visual poem because I consider the ampersand a word; it is merely a different spelling of "and." If not for the ampersand, though (and the equally verbal plus and minus signs), I would lean toward calling the work a textual illumage--i.e., a work of visual art, that is, which is composed of typographical elements but is not a poem because of its lack of consequential semantic content. " Thank you, Alan, Jeffrey, Bob and everybody else for your responses. I was more concerned, actually, with establishing a long existing history of syntax/punctuation poetry than criticizing a particular poem. Since everybody involved seems to be aware of this, we can move on to other topics. Best, Igor S. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 12:20:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Empire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Empire, by Michael Hardt & Antonio Negri, is the closest thing to an anti-globalization movement manifesto as exists. It is available, all 496 pages of it, as a PDF file. http://www.hup.harvard.edu/pdf/HAREMI.pdf Ron ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 09:54:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath In-Reply-To: <004901c11764$d2a0b340$d16d36d2@01397384> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Richard. (and others). If Plath had had no children, would her suicide have been as wrong? Would we discuss John Berryman's suicide in the same manner, viz. Mr. Jullich's claim that Sylvia is to suicide what Paul DeMan is to deconstruction? Robert -- Robert Corbett "I will discuss perfidy with scholars as rcor@u.washington.edu as if spurning kisses, I will sip Department of English the marble marrow of empire. I want sugar University of Washington but I shall never wear shame and if you call that sophistry then what is Love" - Lisa Robertson On Sun, 29 Jul 2001, richard.tylr wrote: > Elizabeth, It's natural that people should talk about Plath AND her > children. Let's be open or "confesional" : it has been said that suicide is > highly irresponsible, and highly unfeeling of others who are close or > associated with oneself. If that aspect of things is brought to the > attention of someone thinking of suicide it makes them think hard about that > act of self destruction. I know that and someone pointing out that, and how > complex the brain is how long we took to become what we are and so forth, > and personal responsibility, had such an effect on me (dont worry I've been > irresponsible and selfish in the worst sense also myself),...:and the effect > it has...it is MOSTLY a violently selfish self-centred act (using those > terms in their worst sense - there can be a good self-centredness that > values others, I feel) ...this you just cant sweep under a carpet as if all > that mattered was Plath's poetry: or Plath the "oppressed" and "put upon" > woman...rubbish! Life is far more valuable than any poetry. And her > children: her attitude as I see it is/was ugly toward them. Maybe people > need to tough things out a bit more, get a life as they say. Her whole life > and philosophy or approach to life seems/seemed shallow and ugly: but not > her poetry...yet the two are connected. > These things have been in my own life (and probably in many on the List) so > I'm not "attacking" Plath herself, not putting myself holier, I'm not:.... > just certain of those obsessions and attitudes which maybe if they had been > put to her strongly may have saved her, and others....who knows. > Regards, Richard. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Elizabeth Treadwell" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 12:31 PM > Subject: Sylvia Plath > > > > right on with your reading of "Daddy", Dodie! > > > > Also, if I'm in the right mood I can read anything and I do mean anything > as > > "confessional"! > > > > I wish people would stop talking about how badly Sylvia Plath served her > > children; the only person she killed was herself. > > > > > > > > Taking a break, > > > > Elizabeth > > ___________________________________________ > > > > Double Lucy Books & Outlet Magazine > > http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy > > ___________________________________________ > > > > Elizabeth Treadwell > > http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy/page2.html > > ___________________________________________ > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 13:06:23 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: plath/suicide MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/31/01 10:40:09 AM, jarnot@PIPELINE.COM writes: << I don't usually post to this list, but it's been surprising to me what people have been saying about suicide. People don't kill themselves because they lack character or because they're irresponsible. They kill themselves because they're in so much pain there's nothing else they can do. Best, Lisa Jarnot >> And Lacan, I believe, considered suicide an acceptable response to that pain. Those who carry on, who choose life! obviously aren't feeling the same level of pain. That level must be damn high to override the instinct toward self-preservation, in any case. Perhaps character has something to do with how such pain is mediated, with one's defenses, etc. Still, those things are wired into us via genetics, general environment, parents, education, and the like. They are not individual choices. But what do I know? These issues are better left to the experts in the field. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 08:12:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Reading, San Francisco, Sunday, August 5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi everyone, if you will be in San Francisco on Sunday August 5, and are not going to be going to the estimable Del Ray Cross/Drew Gardner event at Canessa Park at 3 o'clock, then please come and see me, Kevin Killian, I will be part of this other event on the other side of town at exactly the same time!! It is the debut of "Boys Club," the new queer male spoken word series intended by its organizers to be a kind of counterpart to the "Sister Spit" events here. Anyway this is the first, it's at Cafe du Nord 2170 Market between Church and Sanchez You have to be 21 It costs 3 dollars 3:00 p.m. and I will be reading along with Mario Balcita, the poetry slam king whose work I read first in "Revolutionary Voices" the queer youth spoken word anthology, and also with Kirk Read, author of "How I learned to snap," Kirk is to writing what Josh Hartnett is to acting, i.e., oh, God, what does it matter what his writing is like. And I Kevin will be there launching my new book "ARGENTO SERIES" from Krupskaya Books. Hope to see you there. -- KK. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 14:20:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: magazines, innovation, P.O.V., etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Ron Silliman writes: >I'm amazed at how few people get it that editorial point-of-view is >the >only true product of a journal -- everything else is just >gathering. Nah. At the end of the day there's either work that's engaging and exciting in a magazine or there's not. Editors just let folks into the party. --Jim _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 14:42:06 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: patrick herron Subject: Re: prosody for creative writing students In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I prefer learning the rules by breaking them (not the same as 1st learning the rules and then breaking them). Accident is a wonderful way to learn. It worked for me as a child and it's still working. By operating in this manner I can toss aside the rules that seem useless, superficial or based in the reinforcement of arbitrary and/or redundant power structures. When I was a little kid I would like all kids do something wrong, but I'd negotiate my way out of punishment in a calm rational manner by demonstrating that I knew what was wrong and that I wouldn't repeat the action. Such a tactic always worked--I wouldn't get punished and I wouldn't do the same thing again. To say that the past is pointless is too much brains and too little heart (to throw it all away and make a fresh start...). When you think about it, to throw everything away is so naively Maoist. I mean, Pol Pot wanted to start all over, at year zero, two million bodies in anonymous heaps of dust and flies. The logical extreme of such thinking is frightening. If that were not so scary I'd be laughing right now. Besides, it's hard for me to find anything that is taking place NOW. Every time I look at something, anything, it's already in the past. Even this sentence started before now. Learning a rule doesn't mean you have to follow it; I find it valuable to sometimes appreciate, converse with, or just be aware of what's happened in the past, and that includes everything up to now. Having said that, poetry doesn't really have rules. Guidelines, yes, but guidelines can be ignored. Besides by the time we're aware of anything, we're already outside it. Consciousness *in medias res* seems an achievement of superheroic proportion. Consciousness is being aware of that which has already happened. (Not a definition but a limitation.) You can't avoid the past in your perception of the present. I find the analogy between being completely ignorant of cultural precedents & guidelines and cowboys stunningly appropriate. Manifest destiny, rootin' tootin' & shootin' dem injuns and wetbacks, back, back, back, way back, make way for the brave new world. If this were more funny than depressing I would laugh. I don't know if students would need to be "drilled" but it's probably a good thing to show relatively uninitiated students what people have been doing with poetry across time and space, which of course includes contemporary writers & cowboys. I would guess that 99% of Americans born in the 20th century are uninitiated with poetry (even if 10% actually writer what they call "verse"). Besides, drillin's for oil. Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Wystan Curnow > (FOA ENG) > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 1:13 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: prosody for creative writing students > > > dear ammonides, > here's an answer: > 'The men on the hill, they say,'learn the rules, then break > them.' I like to > 'think the reverse' wherever pssible and even if not: break 'em > enough times > and you won't have to learn 'em, or the rules will have changed, > or you will > change them, or make up your own rules and don't follow those > either, anyway > whose rules are they? I didn't see the signs, musta missed them in the > duststorm, or as we say in Medias Res (Medias Res,Nevada) --rope 'em and > then learn 'em, shoot 'em and then cook 'em (chop up fine before > marinating > indefinitely), float jerkily and carry a Bic pen at all times, where am I? > Is this my fear/or did I just step into the public sphere? are you there > Mordred? ...' > (Charles Bernstein) > wystan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ammonides@AOL.COM [mailto:Ammonides@AOL.COM] > Sent: Sunday, 29 July 2001 4:46 p.m. > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: prosody for creative writing students > > > I was wondering if Joe Amato or anyone teaching poetry writing from the > "non-traditional" perspective thinks that becoming > conversant/competent with > the tradition of prosody should be a core requirement for creative writing > students. > > Personally, I wonder if there is any truth to the rumor that creative > writing > programs today, traditional and "experimental" alike, are liberally, and > without a thought that anything might be amiss, graduating > students who not > only "can't draw a model," but have no notion of why being able > to do so may > be of value. > > Why shouldn't students be drilled and tested in traditonal forms before > their > "avant-garde" portfolios are passed-- self-evaluated, or not? > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 14:56:08 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: patrick herron Subject: Re: binary thinking in riposte? In-Reply-To: <0ac101c1197e$29876f80$737c0218@ruthfd1.tn.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit tom bell wrote - > When I see a question like 'Do you think poetic forms should be taught as part of a workshop' I wonder why someone was accepted that didn't know them. > The question is like 'How can someone > graduate from high school and not be able to spell? I never took one single poetry class in my life. take my example as you will, pro or con. to *know* the forms, to be able to talk the talk, isn't important, but to be able to work through the forms, to stumble across them, to accidentally conjure them, now, THAT'S something you cannot teach. You want it/you got it or you don't. What I'm saying sounds perhaps even more severe than what you said. Also, some people do not write according to form. For many poets, a form is something the poem takes in its later revisions (think implementation as opposed to creation). If the workshop is focused on creativity (the bitten apple), there might be little need for much discussion of form. If the workshop is based on implementation (the polished apple), then form might be very important. but artists aren't technicians and it's important for the teacher to remind a student, say, what a dactyl looks like. To just shrug off the possibility that someone hasn't been thinking of writing poetry in such technical terms is naive. If a teacher wants to teach then s/he's going to have to lead and leading people is often a pain in the ass. rightfully so. i would make sure every poetry student of mine had a copy of Ron Padgett's _Handbook of Poetic Forms_, the OED UNABRIDGED, and tell them to get old beaten up copies of their favorite books and literally tear into them, pull out the parts that make them laugh or cry or come or scream or get angry. The stuff that moves them. oh, yeah, and pen and paper. P ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 15:03:25 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: patrick herron Subject: Re: plath/suicide Comments: cc: jarnot@PIPELINE.COM In-Reply-To: <200107311338.JAA29422@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I may have been the closest to saying such a thing, and I can assure you, I never said that they lack character or were irresponsible. I deal with suicide very day of my life. It's ALWAYS there. I feel like an alcoholic who doesn't drink. I did mean to say that one can guide his/her pain and not just go running into it, embracing it like some literary honor. And I say that with full fear of the possibility that sometimes the suicide cannot be resisted. I criticized Sexton in my selfish way because I saw her running towards situations where she would be more suicidal, and she was doing it deliberately, and I'm scared of that. It's tempting, but it's naive. But then, Sexton was also likely histrionic (borderline personality disorder) as well as manic depressive and so she may have not been able to resist running towards the suicidal "glories". In 2001 we are more aware of bipolar disorder and borderline personality disorder and so they can be helped. Admittedly not in all cases. Best, Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of lisa jarnot > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 6:34 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: plath/suicide > > > I don't usually post to this list, but it's been surprising to me what > people have been saying about suicide. People don't kill > themselves because > they lack character or because they're irresponsible. They kill > themselves > because they're in so much pain there's nothing else they can do. > > Best, > Lisa Jarnot > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 14:35:20 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: more CW pedagogy Comments: cc: Kass Fleisher In-Reply-To: <009a01c1196a$61cf7c20$e3565e18@hawaii.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" susan, the situation you describe is very real in fact---the tyranny of consensus, as it were... one observation: no instructor can every entirely relinquish authority... the move toward democratizing the classroom, then, doesn't presume powerlessness---on the part of instructors *or* students... anymore than the institution within which power is conferred is powerless... so there are times when it's the instructor's call---and what you describe seems to be one of those times... when i step in like that mself, those unfortunate enough to be enrolled in my classes typically moan audibly... they *know* i've just pulled rank... ira shor, for one, has advocated turning even textbook choices over to students... i can just imagine someone making the argument that the REALLY radical thing to do would be to entirely commandeer all student activities, and return (?) to a strictly top-down hierarchy... i want to be resolute here in maintaining that kass and i are not advocating a "middle ground" or some such between these two (ostensible) approaches... we believe that shor's techniques are part & parcel of the the ideology that we're after, even if we employ a different sense of structure (and whatever the classroom contingencies)... the point is to shift responsibilities and so forth in the direction of... it's not any less radical for that---and of course, as has been argued for years now, advocating a more democratic (let's say) approach to the classroom is *advocating*... it's a moral choice, in effect, if also a totality of sorts ("all totalities are not totalitarian")... the nice aspect of doing so, as i say, is that students get to have a voice in talking about how they're being educated (as opposed, again, to top-down, and usually lecture-mode, pedagogies, where students never actually get to question how they're learning, or being taught)... now there's something of a theoretical hitch here, and depending on your theoretical druthers, you can end up chasing your tail on this one... it goes like this: "but how is someone operating within any structure *ever* entirely cognizant of said structure?"... well that's the case all the way around... we're not suggesting we don't challenge ourselves to better our approach to teaching every blasted day... but we do hope that our students too are willing to participate in same... those that aren't, well---there are many more orthodox classrooms on our campus (i include creative writing of course in this assessment) than there classrooms of the sort we advocate for... so i tell students pretty much straight out, in my first class---"this is in effect the law... within this law, there is all sortsa room for movement... the law itself may be critiqued, but i'll expect everyone to abide by same for the sake of the class... if you have any problems with this, bail now..." ysee, very authoritarian sounding, no?... my bark is a bit worse than my bite, sure, but i want to be certain that everyone understands their responsibility---not just to me, but to one another... within six weeks or so, most of the writers in my classes begin to dig the power that comes with answering---not just to me but---to one another (some dig it too much!)... i call this liberating... but whatever you call it, it has the makings of community (term used advisedly), of asking of and answering to one another... there's another problem too, which i hinted at via my passing reference to the "unreconstructed" in my last post... has to do with whether you see the classroom as a place of conversion, of (strictly speaking now) oppositional rhetorics... we don't, though we agree (see our note 14) that this is a "bind" we face, given our stated motives... we anticipate marxist critique specifically along the lines of how presumably week-kneed we critical pedagogues are in this regard... btw, just to be sure i'm not being misunderstood: i've learned lots from more traditional instructors... i can't say i'd wanna teach the way they do---but by way of saying that there are many ways to learn... also, we're not evaluating whether instructors are "good people" or "bad people"---we're talking about their instructional commitments... in any case, we're asking students (and for that matter, faculty!) who resist us to find constructive ways to articulate said resistance... and we hope not simply to cater to those who (on first glance) "see things our way" (one of us now teaches in the cu honors program, and we've taught students across the academic spectrum---so needless to say, even those students who think they "get" us often don't "get," initially anyway, the extent of self-critique we're after)... so much more to say, but enough for now... thanx for the back & forth, susan, brian, others!... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 15:49:46 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: prosody for creative writing students Comments: cc: Kass Fleisher In-Reply-To: <9d.18ed300f.2894ef16@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" "ammonides": after a decade of plying the online world, i've generally made it a point not to respond to someone who isn't signing their name... is that your name, really? (if so, my apologies and no hard feelings, please)... there are a number of reasons why i've decided thus... but ok: sounds like you haven't read kass's and my piece, which does in fact answer (if not by example!) to the (oft-cited) concern you raise... you may not be happy with the answers you find there (!)... also, we're not addressing poetry alone, or prose alone... see our remarks re the status of the artist in the university... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 15:49:49 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: binary thinking in riposte? Comments: cc: Kass Fleisher In-Reply-To: <0ac101c1197e$29876f80$737c0218@ruthfd1.tn.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" tom, kass and i are both more interested in turning out good writers than good writing... does that get somewhat at what you're saying?... when i use "good," i mean it in the largest ethical sense possible... we're interested in the whole enchilada, but for us this includes the disciplinary whole, as paradoxical as that may sound... and for us this means trying to get away from the self-saturated, merely expressive individual (though expressing isn't such a bad thing, neither!)... as to what folks need to know before they enter any profession (incl. the profession of creative writing): well let's see... for me it was a dual degree in math and mechanical engineering... seven years as an engineer in two fortune 500 companies (and an engineering license in ny state)... for kass it was, among other things, administrative manager and producer at central pennsylvania youth ballet... this vita material not to authorize, but to indicate that we didn't write that piece with only academic backgrounds behind us... but what if we did?... what if we experienced poverty, divorce, death, aging, grief, joy, and so forth, and perhaps just as important to the argument i'm making, found bracing ways (miraculously?) to articulate such experiences at a young age?... granted, living some counts... but then again, some folks i know who are now in their 60s seem to have lived very little... how this becomes one's art is surely a messy affair... and along these lines, academic prereq's can only ever approximate, and often in some startingly unuseful ways (!), the question of what one needs to know to benefit from thus & so instruction... for us the key is to consider the history of a given practice, along with a reasonable (if not exactly statistical) survey of what's going on now in higher ed... that'll surely speak somehow to what might be learned, when... and generally, it seems to us that students will reach for more if encouraged to---but this requires shaking off some of the k-12 dust... in any case (and not that anyone sd so, but---) i don't exactly anticipate making the matter of prior knowledge yet another means by which to keep students OUT of classes, if only b/c that would likely play into more orthodox cw logic (see our "inter/mission")... again, more a rumination, as i can't say as how this even approximates an answer to your searching questions---for which i'm again grateful... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 19:31:54 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: Re: A shrivelled world Comments: To: Nate and Jane Dorward In-Reply-To: <01c301c116ec$92b34680$710e6395@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >Sean O'Brien is quoted in a post from Nate Dorward as writing: >Poetry is too important to be left to zealots. I think that poetry is too important NOT to be left to zealots. This reminds me of a review Peter Quartermain and Richard Caddel's, Other: British and Irish Poetry since 1970 that was hit hard in a Canadian review. If I remember correctly, the reviewer was also teaching in BC and the tone was awfully personal. A tactless attack. cheers, kevin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 19:37:21 -0400 Reply-To: Nate and Jane Dorward Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nate and Jane Dorward Subject: Re: A shrivelled world Comments: To: "K.Angelo Hehir" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevin--yes, the assault on _Other_ was in the _Antigonish Review_ 120....I forget the name of the author. That said, while it was certainly a cretinous & malicious piece which evidently grew out of personal differences with Quartermain, it's hard for me to imagine that the review makes much difference in the reception of _Other_, given that I can barely find anyone in Canada who's read the _Antigonish Review_, let alone in the States or the UK. The impact of _Poetry Review_ is a litle harder to gauge: it's quite ubiquitous (most university libraries subscribe), as a glossy organ with near-official status given its asociation with the Poetry Society; but as with a lot of such supposedly prestigious journals I wonder if anyone not published or reviewed in its pages actually reads it. all best --N Nate & Jane Dorward ndorward@sprint.ca THE GIG magazine: http://www.geocities.com/ndorward/ 109 Hounslow Ave., Willowdale, ON, M2N 2B1, Canada ph: (416) 221 6865 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 17:04:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: other little mags with POVs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tinfish, Crack, Nocturnes (debuting this fall, ed. giovanni singleton), How2, Jacket, Outlet, Crayon, The Germ.... POVs can be articulated in very various ways, I agree, Gary! ___________________________________________ Double Lucy Books & Outlet Magazine http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy ___________________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy/page2.html ___________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 17:37:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Cassie Lewis Subject: Re: more CW pedagogy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Susan, These ideas about the limits of democracy in the classroom are interesting I think, and I relate to them not as a teacher or student, but because I run a mailing list for discussion of poetry. It's funny how when an unpopular or difficult decision like kicking someone off the list has to be made, there are sometimes cries of 'censorship' and 'undemocratic'- well not on my list so far, but I've noticed it elsewhere. This interests me because democracy is often seen as somehow opposed to rules and rule-making, whereas I think of rules as central to democratic freedom. I guess the question is whether the rules are pointless/ beaurocratic or whether they help people know the parameters of a group, its purpose etc, and how organic and consultative and adaptive they are to a group's needs. I don't know how any of this relates to a classroom but I do think that the word democracy is often poorly defined, and seems pretty open to discussion. Best wishes _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 12:46:51 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: plath/suicide MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Or they think there's nothing else to do: there may well be a solution to the "problem" they have. Obviously there are many reasons - maybe some ae valid possible someone in a terminal state or real "no way out otherwise with dignity" situation, but there are probably many that are "reversible". One case: a friends mother gassed herself in her car but there was evidence that she changed her mind and tried to escape from the situation (too late). I was rather unsupportive (in my opinion which I kept to myeslf) of that woman. I myself am determined to face death suffering despair with as much courage as I can. Sure, there are some very horrifying examples of suffering: but I cant see Plath quite in that category. Responsibilty DOES come into it. We ARE RESPONSIBLE to our children and those we love and or love us. No compromise or argument on that. Richard Taylor. ----- Original Message ----- From: "lisa jarnot" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 10:33 PM Subject: plath/suicide > I don't usually post to this list, but it's been surprising to me what > people have been saying about suicide. People don't kill themselves because > they lack character or because they're irresponsible. They kill themselves > because they're in so much pain there's nothing else they can do. > > Best, > Lisa Jarnot ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 13:02:09 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: prosody for creative writing students MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wystan and the List. Yes, an interesting take. Is that from "A Poetics" ? I'm reading that currently as well as some Swinburne and some Chekov! Oh and a book of Perec's non fiction or so-called non fiction howwever we classify these things...What a mixture! And a book about Defence and attack by animals, and...I agree with the comment...mind you Bernstein reserves or gives others leave (how big of him! (my little joke)) to make "extravagant" statements that are maybe "wild" or "inaccurate" but are part of what that writer/ poet is....Ammonides might be leading back toward the questions of form etcwhich we discussed and is still worth discussing.....So eg someone could come back with "You CANT play tennis with the nets down"...one could ferociously debate that and/or it becomes a kind of focal or revolving point for thought.....Just my response for now thoughts of a sometimes dry brain....Regards, Richard. PS It took me a long time to abandon (I still havent completely) lineated poetry...I like justification (I mean as the word processor does it) hence the term...JUSTIFIED text...and so on...must be some significance there...even spend (too much) time "correcting" my emails: Habits. Habits. Habits.habits habits habits habits H a B it s Have a habit. Have itz? Noe habbittt. Habblit. Hazzlitt......and so on and on and on.. "Inhabit a habit and you become a rabbit." Second regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wystan Curnow (FOA ENG)" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 5:13 PM Subject: Re: prosody for creative writing students > dear ammonides, > here's an answer: > 'The men on the hill, they say,'learn the rules, then break them.' I like to > 'think the reverse' wherever pssible and even if not: break 'em enough times > and you won't have to learn 'em, or the rules will have changed, or you will > change them, or make up your own rules and don't follow those either, anyway > whose rules are they? I didn't see the signs, musta missed them in the > duststorm, or as we say in Medias Res (Medias Res,Nevada) --rope 'em and > then learn 'em, shoot 'em and then cook 'em (chop up fine before marinating > indefinitely), float jerkily and carry a Bic pen at all times, where am I? > Is this my fear/or did I just step into the public sphere? are you there > Mordred? ...' > (Charles Bernstein) > wystan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ammonides@AOL.COM [mailto:Ammonides@AOL.COM] > Sent: Sunday, 29 July 2001 4:46 p.m. > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: prosody for creative writing students > > > I was wondering if Joe Amato or anyone teaching poetry writing from the > "non-traditional" perspective thinks that becoming conversant/competent with > the tradition of prosody should be a core requirement for creative writing > students. > > Personally, I wonder if there is any truth to the rumor that creative > writing > programs today, traditional and "experimental" alike, are liberally, and > without a thought that anything might be amiss, graduating students who not > only "can't draw a model," but have no notion of why being able to do so may > be of value. > > Why shouldn't students be drilled and tested in traditonal forms before > their > "avant-garde" portfolios are passed-- self-evaluated, or not? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 13:18:07 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: prosody for creative writing students MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ammonides. Can one graduate a sudent of creative poetry...maybe: but I think that poetry etc is in a different category to music (maybe not) as we learn the rules more or less as we grow. Both as small children learning the language then at school and so on and by reading. But I dont think it matters that the old terza rima or iambics etc are or are not known...may be as long as: and this is the trouble people become obsessed with being "correct" but in Creative Land there is no correct. The teacher could say: these are the rules this is the history here is a book of prosody here is writer(s) A B C etc but no one wants the implication that one HAS to learn rules unless one WANTS to learn they rules. "Learned all they rules so 'e could break 'em" to self quote. Or didnt learn them....maybe learn or be conversant with ideas and methods and "takes" but encourage freedom and play with language: encourage having fun. To hell with canons and correctness and orthoctology and straightness! "Damn braces, bless relaces.." Its the unconventional or "lateral" and independent mind we want...not rule bound or "politically correct" or canononical a la Bloom (whom I shot out of a real cannon in a previous post bless his soul spelt with a "u"). May the Force be with you'all! Regards, Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2001 4:46 PM Subject: prosody for creative writing students > I was wondering if Joe Amato or anyone teaching poetry writing from the > "non-traditional" perspective thinks that becoming conversant/competent with > the tradition of prosody should be a core requirement for creative writing > students. > > Personally, I wonder if there is any truth to the rumor that creative writing > programs today, traditional and "experimental" alike, are liberally, and > without a thought that anything might be amiss, graduating students who not > only "can't draw a model," but have no notion of why being able to do so may > be of value. > > Why shouldn't students be drilled and tested in traditonal forms before their > "avant-garde" portfolios are passed-- self-evaluated, or not? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 21:25:26 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: patrick herron Subject: Missle Defense -- The GREAT LIE Comments: To: Fiends , ImitaPo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The rigged missile defense test The target destroyed in the "successful" defense shield test contained a global positioning satellite beacon that made it easier to detect. Why has the media mostly ignored the story? - - - - - - - - - - - - By Joe Conason July 31, 2001 | The Pentagon and the Bush administration are determined to sell the American people a national missile defense system that will probably increase tensions with allies and adversaries and will surely cost more than $100 billion. Their latest marketing exercise took place on the evening of July 14, when a "kill vehicle" launched from the Kwajalein Atoll in the Pacific smashed into a rocket sent up from Vandenberg Air Force Base in California. Precisely according to plan, the target was instantly vaporized on impact -- and along with it, or so the Pentagon's uniformed salesmen hoped, the perennial concern that missile defense won't work. With the cooperation of major news organizations and conservative pundits, that test provided an enormous propaganda boost to the Bush proposal, which conveniently enough had been brought up to Capitol Hill by Defense Department officials just two days earlier. There was only one thing that all the happy salesmen forgot to mention about their latest test drive. The rocket fired from Vandenberg was carrying a global positioning satellite beacon that guided the kill vehicle toward it. In other words, it would be fair to say that the $100 million test was rigged. No wonder, then, that Lt. Gen. Ronald Kadish, the Air Force officer who oversees the NMD program, told the Washington Post on them eve of the test that he was "quietly confident" about the outcome. The general knew about the GPS beacon, while the reporters didn't. This rather significant aspect of the July 14 mission remained hidden in the fine print until a few days ago, when the Pentagon confirmed the role of the GPS device to a reporter for Defense Week magazine. But of course most Americans still don't know why the test functioned so smoothly, because the Defense Week scoop was either buried or ignored by the mainstream media, which had so obediently celebrated the technological breakthrough two weeks earlier. And as Kadish later acknowledged, each of the previous three tests -- two of which failed anyway -- had also involved the use of a guidance beacon. (To longtime observers of the missile-defense effort, this latest news recalled the notorious "Star Wars" scandal, when investigators discovered that a target had been secretly heated to ensure that it would be picked up by the interceptor's infrared sensor.) Reuters was among the few news organizations that bothered to cover the Defense Week story. The wire service quoted a Pentagon official who "conceded that real warheads in an attack would not carry such helpful beacons." Probably not, although we can always hope that the Iranians or the North Koreans or the Chinese will attach to each incoming nuke a loudspeaker that screams "come and get me!" Unfortunately, weapons experts agree that even the most primitive enemy missiles are more likely to carry a very different kind of accessory, namely, decoys designed to fool the computerized sensors aboard the kill vehicle. While the missile launched from Vandenberg on July 14 did spit out a single Mylar balloon as a symbolic decoy, that scarcely challenged the kill vehicle's capacity to select the correct target -- particularly because there was no GPS beacon on that shiny balloon. In real warfare, an incoming missile is expected to deploy multiple decoys of varying shapes and sizes to lure the kill vehicle astray. Past tests have indicated that these simple fakes work far more reliably than the complex technology designed to detect them. Eventually, the truth about the inherent problems of national missile defense may emerge in congressional hearings. But meanwhile, the Pentagon and the Bush White House mean to stifle any dissent about the capabilities of their favorite toy. They have repeatedly sought to reclassify documents that show that the system doesn't function as advertised. And within the past few weeks, they have blatantly attempted to intimidate Theodore Postol, aprofessor at Massachusetts Institute of Technology who is the country's leading critic of missile defense. In early July, according to the Chronicle of Higher Education, Defense Department officials asked MIT to confiscate the reclassified report from Postol and to "investigate [his] actions." At first MIT president Charles Vest, no doubt worried about millions of dollars in defense research grants to his university, moved to comply with that request. Only when Postol protested publicly did MIT back down. Bogus tests and bullied critics are the hallmarks of a defense establishment that fears facts. With billions in contracts at stake and bellicose ideologues in power, the salesmen for national missile defense must conceal the many defects in their dangerous product. And the press corps, reverting to the bad habits of the Cold War, has done little so far to penetrate the Pentagon's propaganda. So when the next "successful" missile-defense test is announced with fanfare and fireworks, don't necessarily believe what you hear. You are the buyers targeted by this massive sales effort -- and you should most certainly beware. salon.com - - - - - - - - - - - - About the writer Joe Conason writes about political issues for Salon News and other publications. For more columns by Conason, visit his column archive. THE ORIGINAL LINK: http://www.salon.com/news/col/cona/2001/07/31/test/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 22:15:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ray Bianchi Subject: Re: plath/suicide MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit bull... suicide is selfishness pure and simple, pain? what pain? Pain is what makes us human ----- Original Message ----- From: "lisa jarnot" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 6:33 AM Subject: plath/suicide > I don't usually post to this list, but it's been surprising to me what > people have been saying about suicide. People don't kill themselves because > they lack character or because they're irresponsible. They kill themselves > because they're in so much pain there's nothing else they can do. > > Best, > Lisa Jarnot ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 11:53:31 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ammonides@AOL.COM Subject: Learning the ropes/Teaching experiment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tom Bell, at the end of a fascinating post, wrote (referring, I believe, to=20 my question re: the teaching of prosodic tradition): "When I see a question like 'Do you think poetic forms should be taught as=20 part of a workshop' I wonder why someone was accepted that didn't know them.= =20 The question is like 'How can someone graduate from high school and not be=20 able to spell?" Yes, that would be another way of seeing the problem. But of course, to have= =20 such stringent standards in our current poetry climate would mean that MFA=20 programs would go bust. So, while the theory Amato and others are offering i= s=20 excellent and important, I would still ask: Is there an important place for=20 certain *remedial* training in CW programs? Because, really, to offer=20 intensive study in prosody is not just an issue of writing, it=E2=80=99s as=20= much an=20 issue of reading-- reading the classics AND the moderns, since you are not=20 reading/hearing Pound (one of the great masters of meter), for example,=20 unless you have an assimilated sense of the heave "against" which he is=20 majestically moving. (And by the way, Wystan, I think this is where your=20 rope-em rodeo analogy is unintentionally to the point: Because there is a=20 complex of rules and techniques, knots and equipment, and so on that the bes= t=20 cowpokes know in their hearts-- and the best cowpokes are the ones with=20 inimitable style.) It seems to me that this is a nuts and bolts area in which "innovative"=20 programs like Buffalo, Bard, Hawaii, Brown, etc. could take the lead over th= e=20 typical AWP scenic-mode programs. Maybe this is happening and I=E2=80=99m ju= st not=20 aware of it. But I say that there can be no experiment worth its salt if the= =20 experimenters can=E2=80=99t lick the Institution Art at its own traditions!=20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 22:20:49 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: patrick herron Subject: Cybersickness Comments: To: ImitaPo , Giles Hendrix MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit One final safety consideration involves the psychological effects that these games can trigger, including disorientation, anxiety, illusory motion sensations (persistent feelings that one is climbing, falling or flying long after the game is over), perceived disturbances in the visual field (hallucinations and after-images... er... ahem!), inappropriate reflexes and disrupted motor control. Astoundingly enough, consistent use of these programs creates new neural pathways in the brain — connections that may not be appropriate paths for brain impulses to travel in real-life situations. (Technology Review mentions a woman who, after using a virtual program designed to show the inside of the human body to doctors and medical students, became so disoriented that shortly afterwards, while drinking from a can of soda, poured soda into her eyes rather than her mouth. After years of anecdotal evidence that fighter pilots trained in flight simulators were experiencing flashbacks and disorientation while driving their cars, and a study that concluded that 14% of helicopter pilots trained in simulators reported motion sickness, and yet other studies that found flashbacks, disorientation, and balance disturbances that lasted for up to 12 hours, the Army, Navy and Marines have decided to ban driving or flying for 24 hours after the symptoms subside in people who have experienced cybersickness.) from: http://www.citypaper.net/articles/032196/article013.shtml (full article) Patrick Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org http://proximate.org/ getting close is what we're all about here! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 21:43:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Plath/Sexton and I Comments: cc: "James W. Pennebaker" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just discovered that the article I mentioned a few days ago is = available at=20 http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage/faculty/pennebaker/reprints = Several of the other articles Dr. Pennybaker has there might be of = interest also. =20 The finding on "I" vs. "we" seems to have particular relevance for 'the = disappearing author' and issues brought up by Joe and Kassie's paper. tom bell =3D<}}}}}}}}}****((((((((&&&&&&&&&~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Metaphor/Metonym for health at = http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm Black Winds Press at = http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/blackwin.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 14:46:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Tranter Subject: Jacket 15 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed When I was a philosophy student I was marked down for wrongly answering the question "Can you read tomorrow's newspaper today?" And then there's Rimbaud's remark: "...and sometimes I have seen what men imagined they saw!" Conundrums like that are as nothing to the intrepid cybernaut: in the strange world of cyberspace you can read issues of Jacket magazine that aren't even due for publication until the end of the year. Jacket # 15 is under construction, and will be complete in December 2001. In the meantime you can read these items, at http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/jacket15/index.html Articles: Keston Sutherland: The Trade in Bathos Craig Dworkin and Michel Delville: Conference, May 18-20, 2000, Universidad de Salamanca Reviews: Douglas Barbour reviews Calyx, an anthology of Australian poetry Richard Caddel reviews Keith Tuma (ed.): Anthology of Twentieth-Century British & Irish Poetry Tom Clark reviews John Ashbery's 100 Multiple-Choice Questions Kris Hemensley reviews New and Selected Poems 1978-97 by John Anderson Kim Hjelmgaard reviews A Poetry of Two Minds, by Sherod Santos Mark Neely reviews Eleni Sikelianos: Earliest Worlds Patrick Pritchett reviews Ring of Fire, by Lisa Jarnot Dale Smith reviews Lewis MacAdams: Birth of the Cool Chris Tysh reviews Marjorie Welish: The Annotated "Here" and Selected Poems Poems from Aaron Belz, Peter Boyle, Chris Edwards, John Hawke, J.Nicole Hoelle, S.K.Kelen, John Kinsella, David Lehman, Cassie Lewis, Geraldine McKenzie, Mark Mahemoff, Ange Mlinko, Chris Tysh, Ethan Paquin, C.D.Wright and Yang Lian Interviews - C.D.Wright interviewed by Kent Johnson - with Deborah Luster's remarkable photographs of inmates from Louisana prisons - C.D.Wright: excerpt from her poem sequence Deepstep Come Shining - Dale Smith interviewed by Kent Johnson from John Tranter Editor, Jacket magazine: http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/ > new John Tranter homepage - poetry, reviews, articles, at: http://www.austlit.com/johntranter/ > early writing at: http://setis.library.usyd.edu.au/tranter/ 39 Short Street, Balmain NSW 2041, Sydney, Australia tel (+612) 9555 8502 fax (+612) 9818 8569 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 09:02:04 -0700 Reply-To: yan@pobox.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: matvei yankelevich Subject: Cellar Series @ SIBERIA: Aug 1, Aug. 8 Comments: To: ugly.duckling@pobox.com Comments: cc: events@offoffoff.com, jasonz@timeoutny.com, drew_pisarra@citysearch.com, editrixafarin@aol.com, publisher@flatirononline.com, jbkatz12@hotmail.com, Misha Gutkin , NPR , "E Sommer Pipeline.com" , Carol Time Out NY , David Time Out NY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii announcing... ------------------------------------- THE CELLAR SERIES @ S I B E R I A (every wednesday) ------------------------------------- Presented by Ugly Duckling Presse & Loudmouth Collective this wednesday...August 1st starting about 8, with drinking films/video by Vajra Spook, J-Sun Burns, Eben Bull, and (possibly) others. sound music by Winter Fashion & Silent Films Of Airplanes Crashing ********************** * Wednesday August 8 * ********************** p e r f o r m a n c e b y p o e t s Aaron Belz (on special NY tour) & Mark McManus FOLLOWED BY: a special recitation of Lucretius (in Latin) by Valerio Lucarini drinking starts at exactly 7:37, followed directly by reading, AT EIGHT PM. The Cellar Series takes place in the basement of the SIBERIA BAR West 40th Street---------------------------------- Between 8th and 9th Avenues, close to the corner of 9th. &------& Aaron Belz is a writer and teacher in St. Louis, MO. He's a graduate of the NYU workshop (1995). He has published poetry in Gulf Coast, Mudfish, Exquisite Corpse, Jacket, -VeRT, RealPoetik, canwehaveourballback.com, elimae, etc, & forthcoming in Fence, Fine Madness, and Pierogi Press. Maybe soon some lucky publisher will choose Belz's manuscript, _Nineteen Harps_, out of the pile. &------& Mark McManus has recently moved back to New York, from where? He's had some poems published in McSweeneys.net (new!), Arshile and an experimental music magazine named Music. Also works as a musician: had a very obscure recording under a stage name Mark Never, and just finished another one named The Donkey Silent. &------& # - # - # - # - # - # - # - # - # - # … nice! … decadent! … underground! … THE CELLAR SERIES @ S I B E R I A * Naked Music Plays * * Rock'n'Roll Poetics * * AvantDrinking Contests * F R E E F R E E F R E E E V E R Y W E D N E S D A Y N I G H T *Presented by* Ugly Duckling Presse & Loudmouth Collective ringleaders: James Hoff & Matvei Yankelevich Bartemptress Ellie Ga www.UglyDucklingPresse.org ***coming up*** AUGUST 22: poets, Brandon DOWNING & Eugene OSTASHEVSKY & SOON: Amanda Palmer, Tom Leach The Day Blind Stars Loudmouth Collective Book Release Party for new books by Craig Foltz and Matvei Yankelevich Simone White 6x6 #4 Unveiling Party & Reading http://www.siberiabar.com/ www.uglyducklingpresse.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 02:33:10 -0400 Reply-To: Nate and Jane Dorward Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nate and Jane Dorward Subject: Prynne biblio Comments: To: UKPoetry list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After letting it slide a year I've been working again on updating the JH Prynne bibliography on my website (see link below). Any corrections, additions, &c very much appreciated. --N Nate & Jane Dorward ndorward@sprint.ca THE GIG magazine: http://www.geocities.com/ndorward/ 109 Hounslow Ave., Willowdale, ON, M2N 2B1, Canada ph: (416) 221 6865 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 07:34:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard Long Subject: New Addition to 2River Chapbook Series Comments: To: David Sutherland , Talan Memmott , Michael Rothenberg , "Aquari2000@aol.com" , Richard Luck , Wanda Phipps , Sue King-Smith , Jennifer Ley , Daniela Gioseffi , Claire Dinsmore , Bob Drake , Simmons Buntin , Leslie Blanchard , Marek Lugowski , Martha Cinader , Ted Slade , Dancing Bear , Anne Hugo , James Cervantes , "Timothy A. Somers" , Jack Kimball , Gillian Savage , Richard Long <2River@daemen.edu>, Carrie Maddocks , gerald@gangan.com, William Peck , John's Email , Amanda Jones , new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu, Cafe BLue MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii 2River today released its latest addition to the 2River Chapbook Series, SEX WITH TREES AND OTHER THINGS EQUALLY RESPONSIVE, a collection of 18 poems by Rebecca Lu Kiernan, in which she conveys the delicious misery of being on the verge of satisfaction. I hope you have the time to read it on one of these summer afternoons. Just follow the link below to 2River, where you'll see an announcement of the new chapbook. Since 1996, 2River has been a site of poetry, art, and theory, quarterly publishing THE 2RIVER VIEW and occasionally publishing individual writers in the 2River Chapbook Series. Richard Long ============ 2River rlong@2River.org http://www.2River.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 12:06:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Cyborg Manifesto Read-Aloud version MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Now hear this: http://www.research.att.com/~mjm/cgi-bin/ttsdemo AT&T's research lab has a program that converts text into speech (options: male, female, child -- gives you a new sense of gender variety). You can insert up to 30 words of text and it will "read it aloud." Your system needs Java and a soundcard. You can hear your poetry in ways that you never imagined, Ron ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 10:14:24 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Bob Grumman writes: "Maybe I'm tired right now, but it seems to me your (sic) just arguing against institutions having too much power." Uh huh. Both Bob & Bill Austin point out that hierarchies are inevitable. On this point they won't get much disagreement from me, though Bill says that, like me, he is not "happy" about it. Bob on the other hand is positively chipper: he doesn't just believe that hierarchy is inevitable, but (in the case of the canon, at least) he's all for it! Of course the canon includes many terrific poets whom I would never dispute; and of course, as Bill points out, it has broadened & is broadening all the time-- whichever canon one refers to, & I think there are a few loose variants out there. Which is all to the good. But then why do I get so darned uncomfortable when Bob states, with surprising candor, "Of course, I pretty much agree with the English-speaking canon before 1900. Who from before then has been discovered who was really any good?" Now a couple of problems leap to my mind with this statement. First of all, it presumes that everything HAS been discovered-- that some, & maybe a lot of it, hasn't permanently been lost. I don't feel nearly as confident as Bob on this point. Secondly, & regardless of what might have been lost, Bob's statement can be paraphrased as saying that literary achievement before 1900 was almost exclusively the domain of white men, & that after 1900 (since Bob doesn't like Dickinson but presumably does like Stein) it suddenly changes to include at least one, or maybe a few, major women (depending on what you think of Niedecker, Moore, HD, Loy, Riding Jackson, Barnes, et. al.) Since like Bob I don't want to keep "batting" this around ad nauseum, I'll just let this assertion stand without further comment. There are a couple of things though that I would like to say specifically to Bob. I never argued that one doesn't need to differentiate between good and bad poetry; and though I disagree with you that the canon is always such a useful tool for doing that (how helpful is it, after all, to have this received body of work about which you don't have to THINK very hard, at least in terms of whether it's any good) I won't belabor the point here. Nor do I feel that my post had anything whatsoever to do with good medical practices, or the authorship of Shakespeare's works, to name two topics that somehow crept into your reply. I guess on these matters, as on a few more, we'll just have to agree to disagree. In closing, I can only express my amazement that any sign of dissatisfaction with the politics of canon formation was controversial, on a list with a large percentage of working poets. But this list never fails to provide surprise and delights. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go back to hitting the delete button, er, snooze alarm. Mark DuCharme _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 09:23:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: Outlet note Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Outlet (7) Heroines will go in to its third printing later this month. If you've sent an order in the last week or so, you will receive it then. More orders are welcome, and everyone who sends $12 by the end of August will receive the rest of our Lucy publications -- that is Outlet (7), Outlet (8), and three Lucille broadsides. Pls make checks payable to ET Jackson and mail to PO Box 9013 Berkeley, CA 94709 gratefully, Elizabeth ___________________________________________ Double Lucy Books & Outlet Magazine http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy ___________________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy/page2.html ___________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 14:23:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chicago Review Subject: Chicago Reading Series In-Reply-To: <958531.3179332145@ubppp248-233.dialin.buffalo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Announcing a new reading series in Chicago, IL: 2-3 poets will be featured on the second Wednesday of every month at Danny's Tavern (1951 W. Dickens, in Bucktown, near Damen) The first reading in this series is: Wednesday, August 8th, at 8:00pm Matthias Regan & Eric Elshtain will headline, w/ several opening acts Contact 773.404.0189 or thedannys@hotmail.com for more information Future readers will include Alexander Hemon, Paul Hoover, Rebecca Wolff and many more! This series is being arranged & hosted by Greg Purcell & Joel Craig -------------------------- CHICAGO REVIEW 5801 South Kenwood Avenue Chicago IL 60637 http://humanities.uchicago.edu/review/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 11:46:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: Gary's phony-ness & all that Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Gary, when I posted my little list earlier I hadn't yet read your longer post -- I really enjoyed your thoughts on Bromige's work, and that space of allowing different voices/modes/whathaveyou. It always sits strange how differently ones poems can turn out, and I expect it's the same with children (not to get in another gender muddle). What I am most glad to see you pointing to is the idea that a POV can be expressed in so many ways, editorially. Maybe, to go back to Ron's original note, which I don't entirely disagree with, one way of expressing a POV, a politic, a stance, is to make a gathering, which Ron dismissed as "just a gathering". It's fine with me if some mags want to express their POVs/purposes in an upfront editorial way, but I also recognize other ways of expressing same. Not every political activist uses a loudspeaker, or whatever, so to speak. Eliz. ___________________________________________ Double Lucy Books & Outlet Magazine http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy ___________________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy/page2.html ___________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 12:07:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Lease Subject: Ed Foster & Donna de la Perriere to read in Boston MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ed Foster and Donna de la Perriere will read at Brookline Booksmith (279 Harvard Street in Coolidge Corner) (Green line, C train, Coolidge Corner stop) on Friday, 10 August at 7:00 pm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 20:18:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Broder, Michael" Subject: Ear Inn Readings--August 2001 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The Ear Inn Readings Saturdays at 3:00 326 Spring Street, west of Greenwich New York City FREE August 4 Catherine Daly, Rachel Levitsky plus open Augus 11 Catherine Esposito, Ada Limon plus open August 18 Aaron Belz, Jordan Davis, Mark McManus plus open August 25 Denise LaCongo, Corie Herman plus open The Ear Inn Readings Michael Broder and Jason Schneiderman, Directors Martha Rhodes, Executive Director The Ear Inn is one block north of Canal Street, a couple blocks west of Hudson. The closest trains are the 1-9 to Canal Street @ Varick, the A to Canal Street @ Sixth Ave, or the C-E to Spring Street@ Sixth Ave. For additional information, contact Michael Broder at (212) 246-5074. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 23:35:49 +0000 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >Dodie wrote: >> > >> > > As far as the rest of the discussion about whether Plath is "great" >> > > or not--I certainly wouldn't use the word "great" myself to describe > > > > anybody. > >>Wow, ain't you a broadminded, nice person, to have such excellent >>values! >>Fred >I would not hesitate in calling Michel Angelo great. >-- >George Bowering I hate to perpetuate this negation by naming William Blake a sensation Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 00:44:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: zoo, minima moralia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 0-- zoo, minima moralia zoo functioning as an inverse concentration camp - the animals are ideally reproduced in their conservation ur-environments; they ideally reproduce in such environments; they are protected against the external violence of humans. but they are displayed, not in terms of relation, for the audience we watched and rewatched, but as individual isolates, spectacles; all con- nections were permanently broken, and the violence - especially of the children - was evident, as if it repeatedly struck the incarcerated bodies. the earth sends minor populations into condensation; we harvest and transfigure our destruction of habitat. but the obscene remains and intensifies - the violence carries no message but that of momentary stasis as animals cower as far from glass or mesh as possible - or else pose obsequiously in the hope of junk food engorgement. in the camp which is the zoo we watch our triumph over the demise of the planet; we watch the idiocy of our triumph; we watch the spectacle of destroyed cultures of any species not our own. in the camp which is the zoo we attempt the resurrection of the end of life; one can watch with horror at the gaping human mouths and screams staring at the last few members of one or another species; in the camp which is the zoo, we find the technological triumphant over each and every last bit of tortured flesh on earth. everything is identified, tagged, labeled; the spectators would like, as one said, nothing better than a taste of flesh killed as fast as possible, offered up for a last hideous meal. coda to reproduce until a plateau of stability is realized, but for what end; the human monsters want nothing more than their share of the game. lock the zoos; keep out of national parks and forests; return wildlife refuges to whatever environment is left. the zoo might flourish without that gaping audience; some sort of semblance of life might finally be returned to one or another abandoned spot of earth. better yet - to cleanse the world of humans who created this disaster in the first place, transforming the planet into one great concentration camp of final and irrevocable extinction. +++ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 00:15:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Cassie Lewis Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't think it's fair or relevant to judge someone as a poor parent because they took their own life. Plath's life was her own, to use as she wished, and it is strange to me that the details of her life in particular seem 'in the public domain'. I don't think suicide is glamourous, and of course it shouldn't be supported, but people should. 'Unfeeling' is not a word many associate with Plath's poetry- which, in the end is all we have to go on, since she's not here to tell her side of things- and it is odd to see that word next to 'confessional'. Which is she- the tell-all poetess that is dismissable, or the coldly brilliant writer? I'd suggest she was a person, just like us, and on that note I'll humbly bow my head, partly in order to duck. Cheers, Cassie | Elizabeth, It's natural that people should talk about Plath AND her | children. Let's be open or "confesional" : it has been said that suicide is | highly irresponsible, and highly unfeeling of others who are close or | associated with oneself. _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 07:17:19 -0400 Reply-To: bkrogers@catskill.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bertha Rogers Subject: Re: SPEAKING THE WORDS FEST In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable WORD THURSDAYS/BRIGHT HILL PRESS ANNUAL SPEAKING THE WORDS FEST FEATURES =93POETREES=94 AND GUEST APPEARANCES BY IGNI THE DRAGON Treadwell in the Catskills, NY --- Word Thursdays/Bright Hill Press kicks off its annual Speaking the Words Tour and Fest on Friday, August 3 with =93poetrees,=94 guest appearances by a nine- foot long, 5 1/2 foot-high dragon, and readings by many of the Summer and Winter Word Thursdays Literary Workshops for Kids Children. The tour and fest begin at 9 a.m. at Barlows=92 General Store in Treadwell, with readings by several of the workshops children, a special guest appearance by =93Igni,=94 the nine-foot long, 5 =BD foot-hig= h papi=E9r mach=E9 dragon created by the children, and the festooning of trees with their poems and riddles. At 11 a.m., more children will read at the Delaware National Bank of Delhi and their poems and riddles will be fastened to Main Street=92s trees, where they will remain through Saturday. Igni will appear in front of the bank, accompanied by her trainers; Igni is the protagonist of a group myth written by the Word Thursdays Kids; her name, suggested by Emily Travisano of Oneonta, means =93fire.=94 On Saturday, August 4, at 1 p.m., Word Thursdays and Domion=92s Great American Food Store on Kingston Street in Delhi will sponsor an open mic poetry reading in the produce Department of the store. All are welcome to read for no more than three minutes. Later in the day, Word Thursdays will hold its annual Dish-to-pass Dinner Under the Stars at Bright Hill Farm, 3 miles south of Treadwell and 2 miles north of the West Delhi Church on County Route 16. The dinner features the Great American Rotten Poem Throwing Contest, coordinated by Earl W. Roberts, III, and his son, Stephen; all are welcome to bring bad poems which will be inserted into potatoes, then shot from the =93spudzooka=94 cannon built by Mr. Roberts and Stephen; potatoes will be supplied, and prizes will include Bright Hill Press books. During dessert, there will be an open mic poetry reading. The dinner costs $5 ($4 for members) for adults, plus a dish-to-pass, and $3 ($1 for members=92 children). All other events are free. In the event of rain, the dinner will take place in the red barn. The Word Thursdays Speaking the Words Tour and Fest, which has taken place since 1993, is sponsored, in part, by the New York State Council on the Arts, the National Endowment for the Arts, area businesses and merchants, and Bright Hill Press members. For more information, contact BHP at 607-746-7306 or email: wordthur@catskill.net. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 11:10:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Broder, Michael" Subject: Ear Inn Readings--August 2001 CORRECTED MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sorry for all the confusion I caused. It's nice to know your are really reading these listings! Please see corrected schedule below. The Ear Inn Readings Saturdays at 3:00 326 Spring Street, west of Greenwich New York City FREE August 4 Aaron Belz, Jordan Davis, Mark McManus plus open Augus 11 Catherine Esposito, Ada Limon plus open August 18 Catherine Daly, Rachel Levitsky plus open August 25 Denise LaCongo, Corie Herman plus open The Ear Inn Readings Michael Broder and Jason Schneiderman, Directors Martha Rhodes, Executive Director The Ear Inn is one block north of Canal Street, a couple blocks west of Hudson. The closest trains are the 1-9 to Canal Street @ Varick, the A to Canal Street @ Sixth Ave, or the C-E to Spring Street@ Sixth Ave. For additional information, contact Michael Broder at (212) 246-5074. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 20:43:35 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: plath/suicide MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I despair at any categorisation of suicide. And too at discussions of whether anyone was 'right' or 'wrong' to do so. As if there were marks out of ten. Just to imagine, and we are all supposed to be imaginative, what it must take for an anyone to end their world, to voluntarily close all the curtains forever, should be sufficient to wake a little humility on this subject. Successful suicide is an act without encore, nor the pleasure of good reviews, and I would not dare comment on it. If you've ever felt that terrible tug, even if for an instant, you'd know what terrible terra incognita it contains. Best David Bircumshaw ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 15:48:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: poetics list stats MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Country Subscribers ------- ----------- Australia 16 Austria 1 Belgium 2 Canada 41 Finland 1 France 1 Germany 3 Great Britain 19 India 1 Ireland 5 Israel 1 Italy 1 Japan 5 Latvia 1 New Zealand 12 Niue 1 Romania 1 Singapore 1 Spain 3 Sweden 3 Switzerland 2 Taiwan 1 Thailand 1 USA 783 Yugoslavia 1 Total number of users subscribed to the list: 907 Total number of countries represented: 25 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 10:07:00 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ammonides@AOL.COM Subject: unusual request/punk rock name MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My son and four of his friends are starting a punk rock band (this one has an oboe in it hooked up to some digital contraption-- they are good, have alredy been asked to play with God's Reflex, a pretty well-known band in underground circles, at gigs in Chicago-- The Bowl and Metropole). They've been trying to come up with a good name, and have been getting into disagreements over the issue. These guys are pretty sophisticated 16-18 year old Genoa anarchist types: Three names which I've suggested, "Oedipus and the Motherfuckers," "Bataille's Thing," and "Fake Pessoa," have all been rejected as "too pompous" or "pushy" (though I know their knowledge of the last two figures is slight). I told them that I would query the Poetics list for suggestions and they enthusiastically agreed that I should. Any imaginative suggestions (but not "pompous" ones)? Any ideas appreciated. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 18:41:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "tracy s. ruggles" Subject: politics & writing Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable If you're curious, there's a discussion starting up at Caf=E9 Utne on politic= s and writing... http://cafe.utne.com/cafe/ --Tracy -- Tracy S. Ruggles :: trace@reinventnow.com "RHUBARB. / Rhubarb is susan not susan not seat in bunch toys not wild and laughable not in little places not in neglect and vegetable not in fold coa= l age not please." -- Gertrude Stein ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 00:17:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Fouhy Subject: Storytelling Festival Comments: To: kadden MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mohegan Colony Association Crompond, NY 10517 For Immediate Release: MCA Storytelling Festival Family Tales Under the Sun and Campfire Ghost Stories Under the Stars Crompond, NY: Saturday, Aug 11th noon until 10:00 PM the Mohegan Colony Association will host an Interactive Storytelling Festival open to residents and non-residents of the scenic “Colony at Lake Mohegan” in the Yorktown-Cortlandt area. The event will feature National and Regional storytellers offering a rich diversity of original and cross-cultural stories shared through words, music, song, dance and movement. From engaging Family Stories in the Historic Stone Schoolhouse to Adult Tales under the Mohegan Colony Pavilion and a Ghost Story Concert around the campfire at the Mohegan Colony Beach, the festival promises a poignant and pithy potpourri of tales, talent and wonder for all ages. The event is hosted by the Mohegan Colony Association and coordinated under the guidance of Judith Heineman, storyteller, actress, performance artist and Producer of both the Los Angeles Women’s Theatre Festival and Tellabration ’97 – 2000, an annual Adult Storytelling Festival in Chicago. Heineman is one of the many gifted storytellers who will participate in this year’s story telling celebration. Other presenters include: Jonathan Kruk, Hudson Valley’s Storyteller Extraordinaire, master of Hudson River lore; Peninnah Schram, Nationally acclaimed for her wit, wisdom and scholarship in the Jewish Tradition; Barbara Aliprantis, bringing alive her Greek heritage in storytelling; Mark Kater, resident storyteller of Village Nature Center in Chicago who incorporates his Cherokee heritage into performances filled with humor, song and lively audience participation; Peg O’Sullivan, Director of the Annual Connecticut Storytelling Festival; Ken Corsbi, offering Caribbean tales and folklore; belly dancer/storyteller Gina Bergamini; Holly Gundolphi, multicultural storyteller and Orff music teacher; Denise Berr-Hanna; Rick Porter and others. Founded in 1923, Mohegan Colony is rooted in culturally rich tradition. Throughout the years, Residents have gathered under the Martha Guinsberg Pavilion to attend concerts and performances by internationally acclaimed singers, musicians and dancers. Mohegan Colony Beach is a private, white sand beach with picnic facilities, handball court and a playground. Participants are encouraged to bring blankets, bathing suits, towels and a picnic lunch if they plan to stay for all events. Tickets are available for the following: Day only-Adults $10:00/ Children $6:00; or Night only for the same price as day tickets; or Full Day including Ghost Stories at the Beach: Adults $15:00/ Children $8:00. Current members and Guest Members receive a $3:00 discount. Volunteers are free. Mohegan Colony is only three miles from the Hudson River and less than an hour from New York City. It is easily accessible by Hudson Line Railroad to Peekskill or car ride up the Taconic Parkway North to Route 202 West, right onto Baron De Hirsch Rd to Schoolhouse Driveway (follow signs). For reservations, information or to volunteer, contact Ellen Monten at 914 528 5830. Tickets may also be ordered in advance. Make checks payable to Mohegan Colony Association (Storytelling) and send to MCA, P.O.Box 33, Crompond, NY 10517. Please include your name, address, city, state, phone # and ticket preference (Day, Night, Full Day, # of Adults or children). ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 16:12:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ANASTASIOS KOZAITIS Subject: Re: unusual request/punk rock name Comments: cc: Ammonides@AOL.COM In-Reply-To: <69.18c00b56.28996704@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed How about Oedipus and the Electric Waist Band Polity and Prison Illegitimate Presidents The Inauthentics The Flying Kennedys At 10:07 AM 8/1/01, Ammonides@AOL.COM wrote: >My son and four of his friends are starting a punk rock band (this one has an >oboe in it hooked up to some digital contraption-- they are good, have alredy >been asked to play with God's Reflex, a pretty well-known band in underground >circles, at gigs in Chicago-- The Bowl and Metropole). > >They've been trying to come up with a good name, and have been getting into >disagreements over the issue. These guys are pretty sophisticated 16-18 year >old Genoa anarchist types: Three names which I've suggested, "Oedipus and the >Motherfuckers," "Bataille's Thing," and "Fake Pessoa," have all been rejected >as "too pompous" or "pushy" (though I know their knowledge of the last two >figures is slight). I told them that I would query the Poetics list for >suggestions and they enthusiastically agreed that I should. > >Any imaginative suggestions (but not "pompous" ones)? Any ideas appreciated. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 16:56:27 -0400 Reply-To: BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a note to say I've read Mark's response to my post and don't feel like going further into the many points he raises. I will admit to being politically-incorrect, though. --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 16:15:15 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: patrick herron Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath Comments: To: George Bowering , editor@pavementsaw.org In-Reply-To: <3B689251.ADF6DD26@megsinet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ahh, David, I dare you and George to name someone who's STILL ALIVE! "Michel Angelo" and Blake are, well, safe, aren't they? I agree with both of you. But name someone who's still alive, and then we'll have a position on contemporary greatness. So I dare you, no, I DOUBLE-DARE you. I do feel a discomfort like Dodie with the term "great," but not only because is it such a heavy-handed and sophist word, but also because it is usually reserved by people who have already passed social and cultural tests of approval (which normally take a great deal of time). So the word "great" does make me squirm, not so much to hear it, but to use it certainly is uncomfortable. Thanks guys in advance for indulging me. I'm serious; I'm not trying to be antagonistic in the least. Prodding, yes, antagonistic, no. Best, Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of David Baratier > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 7:36 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath > > > > > >Dodie wrote: > >> > > >> > > As far as the rest of the discussion about whether Plath is > "great" > >> > > or not--I certainly wouldn't use the word "great" myself to > describe > > > > > anybody. > > > >>Wow, ain't you a broadminded, nice person, to have such excellent > >>values! > >>Fred > > >I would not hesitate in calling Michel Angelo great. > >-- > >George Bowering > > I hate to perpetuate this negation by naming William Blake a sensation > > > Be well > > David Baratier, Editor > > Pavement Saw Press > PO Box 6291 > Columbus OH 43206 > USA > > http://pavementsaw.org > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 14:55:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Cassie Lewis Subject: Re: plath/suicide Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It must be nice to be so confident of one's sanity and unselfishness to feel free to judge acts of self-destruction. I'm sure Plath intended no personal offence to you. I think that love makes us human, not pain, and perhaps we should extend a little love Plath's way, if the details of her life must be picked over. Pain is something I prefer to avoid, and if the world was nothing but pain I can imagine I'd prefer to exit it. Radical eh? Best, Cassie On Tue, 31 Jul 2001 22:15:21 -0400, UB Poetics discussion group wrote: | bull... suicide is selfishness pure and simple, pain? | what pain? Pain is what makes us human | _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 15:44:26 -0600 Reply-To: Mary Angeline Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mary Angeline Subject: Robert Kelly MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi list folk. I have an important if not urgent message for Robert Kelly can someone please bc this info to me or forward to him? thanks mary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Amato" To: Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 10:04 AM Subject: CFP Journal of Radical Psychology > given the fascinating discussion hereabouts about hannah wiener's writing, > and w/o knowing much about the journal below, i thought this *might* be a > place to submit a more extended piece on same (?)... > > best, > > joe > > > >Journal of Radical Psychology (JRP) Spring 2001 Vol. 2 (1) ISSN: 1561-8978 > > > >http://www.radpsy.yorku.ca > > > > > >DEAR COMRADES! Make illness a weapon > >Jean-Paul Sartre > > > >Anankasia -- to suffer from a surfeit of truth > >Louis N. Sandowsky > > > >Toward a Fractal Metaphor for Liberation of Palestinian Women > >Moshe S. Landsman > > > >Bedside and Philosophically Oriented Clinical Practice > >Shlomit C. Schuster > > > >Race Matters > >Stephanie Austin > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > >---- > > > >The editors and editorial board like to receive manuscripts on the subject > >radicalism(s) for its upcoming volume: Any question concerning radicalism > >seem to us interesting to explore. Some questions to start you > >brainstorming: Is radicalism "fashionable" in the contemporary academic > >world? Is radicalism today different from that of the past century? Is > >radicalism a life-style, a theology, a psychology, a philosophy? What > >fosters radicalism? Can radicalism be negative as well, and if so, how to > >aviod its negative side? Or write an essay on your favorite radical or > >other subject > >relevant to radicalism. > > > >For submission details: http://www.radpsy.yorku.ca/Style.htm > > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > >---- > > > > > >Radical Psychology provides a forum for scholars interested in social > >justice and the betterment of human welfare but dissatisfied with the manner > >in which mainstream psychology has addressed these issues. > >Subjects addressed by the journal include, but are not limited to: > >anti-psychiatry, qualitative methods, political psychology, > >feminism, anti-racism, multiculturalism, radical clinical theory, > >critical theory, critiques of mainstream psychology, and history > >of psychology. > > > >It is the journal of the Radical Psychology Network which seeks > >like-minded psychologists and others to help create a society > >better able to meet human needs and bring about social justice. > >We want to change society's unacceptable status quo and bring > >about a better world. > > > >And we want to change the status quo of psychology, too. We challenge > >psychology's traditional focus on minor reform, because enhancing human > >welfare demands fundamental social change instead. Moreover, > >psychology itself has too often oppressed people rather than > >liberated them. > > > >No attempt has been made to define the word "radical". We believe that our > >diversity is our strength; no single approach to psychology has a > >monopoly on the truth nor exclusive claim to the term "radical". > > > >See the JRP web site at http://www.radpsy.yorku.ca for further details. > > > > > >Summer 1999, Vol. 1, Issue 1. > >Anxiety and Depression: A Philosophical Investigation > >Petra von Morstein > >SEE TEMPORARILY AT: > >http://www.geocities.com/centersophon/Anxiety.html > > > > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >Dr Shlomit Schuster > >Journal of Radical Psychology > >www.radpsy.yorku.ca > >Managing Editor JRP > >email: counsel@actcom.co.il > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > > > > > Reply Reply All Forward Delete Put in Folder...InboxSent > >MessagesDraftsTrash Can Printer Friendly Version > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 16:28:34 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: patrick herron Subject: Re: unusual request/punk rock name Comments: To: ammonides@aol.com In-Reply-To: <69.18c00b56.28996704@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Streaming Faeces. Yodeldope. Ventilator. Big Smack Happy Meal. Neoplastic Happy Hour. Kidchop. Supertumor. Kung. Argonut. Ergonut. Ergonaut. JennaBush Flop. Seed. Speed (say it with a french accent: "spEE'-duh") Dropslop. Butt. Drillcatcher. PLO. Datadrop. Knockwurst. I wish I could say, "Children McNuggets", but it's already taken. Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Ammonides@AOL.COM > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 10:07 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: unusual request/punk rock name > > > My son and four of his friends are starting a punk rock band > (this one has an > oboe in it hooked up to some digital contraption-- they are good, > have alredy > been asked to play with God's Reflex, a pretty well-known band in > underground > circles, at gigs in Chicago-- The Bowl and Metropole). > > They've been trying to come up with a good name, and have been > getting into > disagreements over the issue. These guys are pretty sophisticated > 16-18 year > old Genoa anarchist types: Three names which I've suggested, > "Oedipus and the > Motherfuckers," "Bataille's Thing," and "Fake Pessoa," have all > been rejected > as "too pompous" or "pushy" (though I know their knowledge of the last two > figures is slight). I told them that I would query the Poetics list for > suggestions and they enthusiastically agreed that I should. > > Any imaginative suggestions (but not "pompous" ones)? Any ideas > appreciated. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 14:45:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath In-Reply-To: <31312557.996736555467.JavaMail.imail@scorch.excite.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >I don't think it's fair or relevant to judge someone as a poor parent >because they took their own life. Plath's life was her own, to use as she >wished, You seem to think that that assertion does not require supportive argument. >I'd suggest she was a person, just like us, I have read her poems, and have looked a little at the stuff about her life, and I do not think that she is just like me. >Cassie > GB -- George Bowering Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 17:12:27 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Julie Kizershot Subject: Re: unusual request/punk rock name Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I always wanted to name a band "Epistemological Popsicle" then they could be the Piss Pops for short Julie K ---------- >From: Ammonides@AOL.COM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: unusual request/punk rock name >Date: Wed, Aug 1, 2001, 8:07 AM > > My son and four of his friends are starting a punk rock band (this one has an > oboe in it hooked up to some digital contraption-- they are good, have alredy > been asked to play with God's Reflex, a pretty well-known band in underground > circles, at gigs in Chicago-- The Bowl and Metropole). > > They've been trying to come up with a good name, and have been getting into > disagreements over the issue. These guys are pretty sophisticated 16-18 year > old Genoa anarchist types: Three names which I've suggested, "Oedipus and the > Motherfuckers," "Bataille's Thing," and "Fake Pessoa," have all been rejected > as "too pompous" or "pushy" (though I know their knowledge of the last two > figures is slight). I told them that I would query the Poetics list for > suggestions and they enthusiastically agreed that I should. > > Any imaginative suggestions (but not "pompous" ones)? Any ideas appreciated. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 21:03:56 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Re: plath/suicide MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit well I want to thank all those arms manufacturers, and police and germs and accidents and psychopaths who make us human L ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Bianchi" To: Sent: 01 August 2001 03:15 Subject: Re: plath/suicide | Pain is what makes us human ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 17:17:12 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Julie Kizershot Subject: Re: plath/suicide Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit there's no way anyone can judge what else anyone else has to go through-- I've seen people who struggle to stay alive everyday with things like a bi-polar diagnosis and it is no small thing to do survive each day. Any one who has been close to anyone struggling with mental illness would know this critiques of selfishness are far too simplistic ---------- >From: Ray Bianchi >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: plath/suicide >Date: Tue, Jul 31, 2001, 8:15 PM > > bull... suicide is selfishness pure and simple, pain? > what pain? Pain is what makes us human > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "lisa jarnot" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 6:33 AM > Subject: plath/suicide > > >> I don't usually post to this list, but it's been surprising to me what >> people have been saying about suicide. People don't kill themselves > because >> they lack character or because they're irresponsible. They kill > themselves >> because they're in so much pain there's nothing else they can do. >> >> Best, >> Lisa Jarnot ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 17:53:48 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: Cyborg Manifesto Read-Aloud version Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Ron Silliman wrote: >Now hear this: > >http://www.research.att.com/~mjm/cgi-bin/ttsdemo > >AT&T's research lab has a program that converts text into speech (options: >male, female, child -- gives you a new sense of gender variety). You can >insert up to 30 words of text and it will "read it aloud." A program called Simple Text, which you can find on most Macs, does the same thing. There are several variant "voices" to choose from-- none of which sound very natural. I don't believe there is a word limit. Mark DuCharme _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 13:59:47 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: plath/suicide MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David. I agree. Maybe because I am thinking of my own children...that's where it gets you in the gut: that's basal...one's own and then the feeling and concern goes to others. But the word "responsibility" and other attitudes can become too stffly judgemental. I'm as cotradictory and as "crazy" as anyone else. I agree. We must live, but let's be compassionate. Christ knows what hell went through Sylvia to take her own life or anyone else.... as I wrote once "What horror does the smotherd scream, the twisting of the limbless hope, the dessicated death". But maybe that's rhetoric. Yes. Humility. A good word for me. I need some. Thanks, Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "david.bircumshaw" To: Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 7:43 AM Subject: Re: plath/suicide > I despair at any categorisation of suicide. And too at discussions of > whether anyone was 'right' or 'wrong' to do so. As if there were marks out > of ten. > > Just to imagine, and we are all supposed to be imaginative, what it must > take for an anyone to end their world, to voluntarily close all the curtains > forever, should be sufficient to wake a little humility on this subject. > Successful suicide is an act without encore, nor the pleasure of good > reviews, and I would not dare comment on it. If you've ever felt that > terrible tug, even if for an instant, you'd know what terrible terra > incognita it contains. > > Best > > David Bircumshaw ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 22:11:46 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: prosody for creative writing students MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/2/01 3:37:48 PM, richard.tylr@XTRA.CO.NZ writes: << Its the unconventional or "lateral" and independent mind we want...not rule bound or "politically correct" or canononical >> Oh yes! And that is a very rare tweety indeed. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 14:03:23 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cassie. I take your point. See my reply to David Bircumshaw. Regards, Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cassie Lewis" To: Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 7:15 PM Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath > I don't think it's fair or relevant to judge someone as a poor parent > because they took their own life. Plath's life was her own, to use as she > wished, and it is strange to me that the details of her life in particular > seem 'in the public domain'. > > I don't think suicide is glamourous, and of course it shouldn't be > supported, but people should. > > 'Unfeeling' is not a word many associate with Plath's poetry- which, in the > end is all we have to go on, since she's not here to tell her side of > things- and it is odd to see that word next to 'confessional'. > > Which is she- the tell-all poetess that is dismissable, or the coldly > brilliant writer? > > I'd suggest she was a person, just like us, and on that note I'll humbly bow > my head, partly in order to duck. > > Cheers, > > Cassie > > > | Elizabeth, It's natural that people should talk about Plath AND her > | children. Let's be open or "confesional" : it has been said that suicide > is > | highly irresponsible, and highly unfeeling of others who are close or > | associated with oneself. > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > Send a cool gift with your E-Card > http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 20:57:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Felsinger Subject: Re: unusual request/punk rock name In-Reply-To: <69.18c00b56.28996704@aol.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I remember the bands back when as having THE placed before their names, ala The Clash, The Sex Pistols, The Dead Kennedys, The Buzzcocks, The Exploited, The Avengers, Etc. I therefore make the following likewise suggestions: 1) The Compulsions 2) The Ends 3) The Means 4) The Hormones 5) The Others 6) The Translators 7) The Subjects 8) The Terra Firma 9) The Terror 10) The Rooms It's a start, if nothing else~ Best, Andrew > From: Ammonides@AOL.COM > Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 10:07:00 EDT > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: unusual request/punk rock name > > My son and four of his friends are starting a punk rock band (this one has an > oboe in it hooked up to some digital contraption-- they are good, have alredy > been asked to play with God's Reflex, a pretty well-known band in underground > circles, at gigs in Chicago-- The Bowl and Metropole). > > They've been trying to come up with a good name, and have been getting into > disagreements over the issue. These guys are pretty sophisticated 16-18 year > old Genoa anarchist types: Three names which I've suggested, "Oedipus and the > Motherfuckers," "Bataille's Thing," and "Fake Pessoa," have all been rejected > as "too pompous" or "pushy" (though I know their knowledge of the last two > figures is slight). I told them that I would query the Poetics list for > suggestions and they enthusiastically agreed that I should. > > Any imaginative suggestions (but not "pompous" ones)? Any ideas appreciated. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 23:55:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: trAce/ELO chat with Kate Hayles and Literature in Transition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ubject: [webartery] trAce/ELO chat with Kate Hayles and Literature in Transition Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 22:25:12 -0600 From: Deena Larsen Reply-To: webartery@yahoogroups.com To: "webartery@onelist.com" Hi, Please join the trAce/ELO chat to talk with Kate Hayles and her students in the National Endowment for Humanities course, Literature in Transition. WHEN This Sunday August 5th at 22:00 Rome, 21:00 London, 16:00 New York, 14:00 Denver,13:00 L.A, and 06.00 Sydney (Mon). WHAT The NEH Seminar, Literature in Transition: The Impact of Information Technologies, runs from July 2-August 10, 2001. Come sit in on this class as we talk with participants about insights into new trends in literature, future possibilities, theoretical and practical developments, and more. ----------HOW TO JOIN IN ON LINGUA MOO-------------------- Go to http://lingua.utdallas.edu:7000 Click on the LOG IN button on the left hand side Type in your name at the prompt Once in the MOO, type "@go eliterature" to get to the electronic literature chat room. You can get more information on the chat schedule and read archives at http://www.eliterature.org/com/index.shtml or email chathost@eliterature.org ------------ Hope to see you there! trAce Electronic Literature Organization ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 01:04:21 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: patrick herron Subject: Wake Up America Comments: To: Fiends , ImitaPo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allow me to repeat myself. The war on drugs is a war on the American people. http://www.narconews.com/ The war on drugs is a war on the American people. http://www.narconews.com/ The war on drugs is a war on the American people. http://www.narconews.com/ The war on drugs is a war on the American people. http://www.narconews.com/ The war on drugs is a war on the American people. http://www.narconews.com/ The war on drugs is a war on the American people. http://www.narconews.com/ The war on drugs is a war on the American people. http://www.narconews.com/ The war on drugs is a war on the American people. http://www.narconews.com/ The war on drugs is a war on the American people. http://www.narconews.com/ The war on drugs is a war on the American people. http://www.narconews.com/ The war on drugs is a war on the American people. http://www.narconews.com/ The war on drugs is a war on the American people. http://www.narconews.com/ The war on drugs is a war on the American people. http://www.narconews.com/ The war on drugs is a war on the American people. http://www.narconews.com/ The war on drugs is a war on the American people. http://www.narconews.com/ The war on drugs is a war on the American people. http://www.narconews.com/ The war on drugs is a war on the American people. http://www.narconews.com/ The war on drugs is a war on the American people. http://www.narconews.com/ The war on drugs is a war on the American people. http://www.narconews.com/ Read NarcoNews regularly. And not just the American people! Mexicans, Colombians, Thai, Vietnamese, Chinese, Afghanis, Nigerians, Bosnians, and so on. Patrick Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org http://proximate.org/ getting close is what we're all about here! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 02:21:25 -0400 Reply-To: gmcvay@patriot.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: On pain and the death of some artists MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > bull... suicide is selfishness pure and simple, pain? > what pain? Pain is what makes us human Take a person with probable bipolar disorder, pathological perfectionism, and a history of suicide attempts at an early age. Say that person has just been through a wrenching divorce--assume no position on the rightness or wrongness of either person; only note that the divorce Really Sucked. Put this person across an ocean from roots and family. Give him/her two very small children to look after. Add the fact that he/she is jobless and chronically physically ill. The result you may well get is highly unfortunate--but is it a moral crime, or simply a likely consequence of aggravated illness? You might go on to make the ridiculous comparison to a 53-year-old man with a work cycle that alternates between extremely sedentary periods and intensely demanding physical work. Here, the confounding factors include obesity, constant tobacco smoking, uncontrolled diabetes, sleep apnea, and an on-and-off, debilitating smack jones. Throw in congestive heart failure, and you get another death. In each case there are many ways that the person might have prevented his or her own death. The fact remains that the person did not. Is contempt the most useful response to such deaths? I think it unfairly colors the reception of a body of work. I also think it's not fair to whatever in the artist created--and did want to live. "I read somewhere that 77 percent of all the mentally ill live in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 percent who are apparently doing quite well for themselves." --- Jerry Garcia, 8/1/42-8/9/95 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 10:45:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: [Insipid] Dante's Inferno short, bitter (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Dante's Inferno short, bitter a book to take with me in that dark wood appearance once during april's rainy wound as if it mattered to reinforce the mood of lucan's bleak ascent to lead the way down through the trodden paths of zen to find other means of circles, bridges, mind beyond the good wound in the moody wood beyond the found way left behind - ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Imitation Poetics web site: http://www.topica.com/lists/imitationpoetics/ ==^================================================================ EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bUrJ6z.bVxDFa Or send an email To: imitationpoetics-unsubscribe@topica.com This email was sent to: sondheim@panix.com T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^================================================================ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 08:53:19 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: teaching... Comments: cc: Kass Fleisher Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" looking back over my posts on the teaching of creative writing: one of the things that annoys me most about teaching, or, talk about teaching---despite the value of sharing ideas, knowledge, etc. (all of which fall under the "lore" category)---is that such a discussion can quickly devolve into "i do this" & "i do that" & "this is the result"... which is to say, it can become such a trivial exercise, one that loses sight of the larger issues... hell, i find even my own posts along these lines occasionally cloying... and which is why i'd really prefer it mself were it possible, at least once in a while, to move the discussion away from one's classroom per se and in the direction of those issues---the whys of teaching as opposed strictly to the hows or whats... for me such a discussion necessarily invokes history, theory, etc... and (if i may): those 28,000 words that kass and i took a year to put together are, for the most part, dedicated not to the hows, but to the whys... in which regard, the paradoxes of democracy (esp. for the classroom) seem an apt place to start... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 10:55:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Gathering (of the Tribes) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Elizabeth Treadwell wrote: >one way of expressing a POV, a politic, a stance, is to make a >gathering Yeah, for instance, Steve Cannon's A Gathering of the Tribes: http://www.tribes.org/magazine.html Which is a really great multi-culti mag/performance space/etc. Their stated mission: "Through its public programs and publications, A Gathering of the Tribes creates a performance venue and meeting place for artists and audiences to come together across all artistic disciplines, all levels of complexity, and all definitions of difference. In this pan-disciplinary, multi-cultural environment, artists exchange ideas, create peer relationships and find mentorship. At Tribes’ gallery and public events, audiences experience the voices and visions of artists traditionally ignored by mainstream media. Through Tribes’ publications, readers encounter a unique synthesis of literature, visual art, criticism and interviews with artists of all kinds." ... and of course what you see there, or anyway what I see there, is that there is probably no such thing as a purely random gathering or collection. This is kind of underscored if you go to their Guest Book, which has a pretty wide range of responses, from glowing praise to really awful, weird racist epithets. The fact that they get such a wide range of very impassioned responses would seem to suggest a very strongly articulated POV ... as Jack Kimball (who does the wonderful online East Village) just said to me (I'm multi-tasking here, sorry!): "If a magazine had no point of view at all, the response would probably be one of complete indifference ..." I have this whole theory about mags & their personalities, which I think become more evident over time, but I'll save it for now ... Thanks, Elizabeth, for the lovely post ... Gary _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 12:58:12 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: latest on genoa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII IMC NEWS BLAST | Sunday, July 29, 2001 GENOA LEGAL AND HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUES by Indymedia News Blast Team A compilation of breaking stories, photos, video, and sound from the Independent Media Center network, http://www.indymedia.org. Online version of this IMC NEWS BLAST with clickable links: http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=56210 CONTENTS ----------------- A. SUMMARY OF EVENTS B. GENOA LEGAL AND HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUES C. ACCOUNTS AND ACTIONS D. PHOTOS, VIDEO, AND AUDIO E. PRINT F. OTHER PRESS COVERAGE G. ADDITIONAL IMC COVERAGE ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 09:39:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Avery Burns Subject: Canessa Park Time MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Quick note: Kevin Killian's post mentioned that the reading at Canessa is at 3 pm. The event is Sunday 5 pm - Canessa Park 708 Montgomery Street San Francisco Del Ray Cross & Drew Gardner thanks Avery __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 15:04:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kiwi Subject: Re: A review of NOVA in Publishers Weekly Comments: To: "Undisclosed Recipients"@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20 =20 =20 In this week's Publishers Weekly (July 23, 2002, p. 70) there is a = review of Nova, by Standard Schaefer. I've reprinted the review below. =20 Once again, we offer subscribers of this list a 20% discount. Send a = check with $1.25 for postage, made out to Sun & Moon Press, 6026 Wilshire Blvd., Los Angeles, CA 90036 =20 Price $10.95 (112p), ISBN 1-55713-404-9 =20 By turns bizarre, trendy and loveable, Schaefer's National Poetry = Series-winning debut takes some of its bearings from the language writing of the '70s and = '80s and jostles among their more recent, more lyrical and often racier heirs. Of = these three sequences, "Fort" inches and backtracks toward a vivid, almost Faulknerian portrayal = of spaces along the Mexico-U.S. border, "where aunts are obvious," Spanish is spoken = and "there's a new south rising against the sliding glass / of a dead language." = "Ovalness"attacks the modern economy and the roles of "employer" and "occupant," and = cryptically warns "The bald one-- / will turn out badly." By far the longest = sequence, "Nova Suite" interleaves angels, birds, cars, highways, "paper doilies," particle = physicists, "atoms of a lost identity" and a web of mock-academic footnotes. Schaefer's = title invokes at once America's nuclear program and its automobile industry, whose = products behave like chemical elements-- "Saturns or Plymouths are inert," while a Chevy = Nova (Spanish for=20 "doesn't go") may bear cosmic dangers. The first two, shorter = sequences are by for the stronger work here, and may be the most recently written. If so, = they presage further lyrical damage to come. =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 14:04:35 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: patrick herron Subject: Re: Cyborg Manifesto Read-Aloud version In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ahh Mark, and there's textaloudmp3, which my pal Lester uses. But neither simpletext nor textaloud nor any of the microsoft speech engines (or any of the other tools out there) replicate "natural" speech quite as well as what Ron shared, at least to my knowledge. That AT&T application truly is a quantum leap down into the abyss of making love to machines. Orgone sieve, money sponge. "Gee, I just, well, never feel, uh, quite *right* afterwards, you know?" I prefer the ones that sound fake, especially because they read in regular time. (Hint) Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Mark DuCharme > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 7:54 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Cyborg Manifesto Read-Aloud version > > > Ron Silliman wrote: > > >Now hear this: > > > >http://www.research.att.com/~mjm/cgi-bin/ttsdemo > > > >AT&T's research lab has a program that converts text into speech > (options: > >male, female, child -- gives you a new sense of gender variety). You can > >insert up to 30 words of text and it will "read it aloud." > > A program called Simple Text, which you can find on most Macs, > does the same > thing. There are several variant "voices" to choose from-- none of which > sound very natural. I don't believe there is a word limit. > > Mark DuCharme > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 22:53:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Vidaver Subject: Re: unusual request/punk rock name Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Guiliani's Extinguisher ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 13:23:36 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ammonides@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Poets' punk band names Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you to all the people who wrote b-c with ideas-- unexpected and the boys are thrilled, though now the issue has become extremely complicated for them. Here is what I have received b-c so far, and many of these were regarded as terrific. Yesterday, three of the band members were looking over my shoulder as I looked through the Poetics archives, and one of them said, "Is anybody on here more or less famous?" And I said that yes, in the world of poetry, and I gave him some names off the top of my head. So he said, "Hey what about something like just "Kevin Killian", or "Charles Bernstein," or "Silliman, Ron", or "Kevin Killian Loves Jordan Davis," or etc. (Three of the band are gay, so all the names mentioned in this vein were male, I think. So, they are considering some of the above, plus one that for the moment seems to be the front-runner: "The Homosocials." OK, here are the wonderful suggestions I received, and thanks very much again: Lick the Blister, Oedipus and the Electric Waist Band, Polity and Prison, Illegitimate Presidents, The Inauthentics, The Flying Kennedys, Socrates Playground, Etch-A-Retch, Streaming Faeces, Yodeldope, Ventilator, Big Smack Happy Meal, Neoplastic Happy Hour, Kidchop, Supertumor, Kung, Argonut, Ergonut, Ergonaut, JennaBush Flop, Seed, Speed (said with French accent: "spEE'-duh"), Dropslop, Butt, Drillcatcher, PLO, Datadrop, Knockwurst, In Advance of the Broken arm, Red Shift, Piss christ, God and the state, Constant Impure Fire, Junkyard Sky, Screm of the Buddha, Now's the Time, Mary Tyler Morphine II, Red Front, The Convulsions, Off the Wall, Next Time the Bathroom, Secret Life of Marcel duchamp, G8 lite (name of radical killed in Genoa), Globalization Fag, Putin's NATO. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 13:40:58 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ammonides@AOL.COM Subject: Dart post to Joe Comments: cc: joe.amato@colorado.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Joe Amato, Yes, Ammonides Diodoros is my real name. The false one on my license and resume is all wrong; it's caused pain everywhere, in the "on-line world" and in my own house. My sons have wept themselves to sleep on twenty-five or thirty-nine nights. I'll never get a job at a research institution. Yannis Ritsos was a teacher of mine. I hate what the Comintern did to the communist resistance in the mountains. Boulder is one of my favorite cities. Because it must be opened like a cut. A poet kisses her own plaster head. Puts a leg over the shoulder of the other. "Sidewalks of the City" by Lucinda Williams is the greatest song ever. Except for "Which Will". But Meredith Monk is even better. Please respond to me. Because a Creative Writing teacher who can say: "Please forgive me if it is your real name... no hard feelings!" still has so much more to say to others and to himself. Like all of us, distressed in our appellations. I love you, and I love, too, the writing implement held coyly ! against your lips. And, frankly, I don't give a fuck anymore. There is a kind of hollow pole that connects my name to yours. Through which this post is a kind of dart aimed at your forgiving tongue. Ammonides ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 13:12:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: unusual request/punk rock name In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Andrew writes, offering punk names: <<8) The Terra Firma 9) The Terror>> I say: Why not just say "Terror Firma" then, and we can all lament the human condition. With a little dash of pretense? Postscript: I remember bands with names like, following the trend of recent POETICS posts, "Sylvia's Oven", btw. Good Luck. JG ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 12:04:50 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Dart post to Joe Comments: cc: Kass Fleisher In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ammonides, ok then!... and as i say, i'm sorry to have made this an issue... but hey, imho the greatest (pop) song ever is "stardust"... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 11:12:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: prose workshop in SF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi Folks, I'm going to be leading a 10-week private prose workshop at my apartment this Fall--Wednesday nights beginning September 12, 7 to 10 p.m. I haven't done this in a while, don't have a group of regulars, so enrollment is wide open. Liberal definition of what constitutes prose. This is a great place to bring work that feels too edgy for presentation in a classroom, i.e., sex and weirdness welcome. No assignments, unless you want them, you just bring your work and talk about it. 8 student limit. If you'd like more info, please backchannel me. Thanks. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 14:20:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ". sandra" Subject: Re: unusual request/punk rock name In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010802161014.00ada820@mail.verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit and how about: the clashbuttons clashstein the magnificent cash clashgate the mad gabriels blessedivision heretic heroes --On Quinta-feira, 2 de Agosto de 2001, 16:12 -0400 ANASTASIOS KOZAITIS wrote: > How about > > Oedipus and the Electric Waist Band > Polity and Prison > Illegitimate Presidents > The Inauthentics > The Flying Kennedys > > > At 10:07 AM 8/1/01, Ammonides@AOL.COM wrote: >> My son and four of his friends are starting a punk rock band (this one >> has an oboe in it hooked up to some digital contraption-- they are good, >> have alredy been asked to play with God's Reflex, a pretty well-known >> band in underground circles, at gigs in Chicago-- The Bowl and >> Metropole). >> >> They've been trying to come up with a good name, and have been getting >> into disagreements over the issue. These guys are pretty sophisticated >> 16-18 year old Genoa anarchist types: Three names which I've suggested, >> "Oedipus and the Motherfuckers," "Bataille's Thing," and "Fake Pessoa," >> have all been rejected as "too pompous" or "pushy" (though I know their >> knowledge of the last two figures is slight). I told them that I would >> query the Poetics list for suggestions and they enthusiastically agreed >> that I should. >> >> Any imaginative suggestions (but not "pompous" ones)? Any ideas >> appreciated. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 13:23:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Sylvia Plath and Who's Great Comments: To: patrick@proximate.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Patrick's Challenge: Easy enough, I think, so I'll jump in: John Ashbery is great. (Or looms greatly over the second half of the last century, at least.) Great-fully, JG ------------------- J Gallaher Metaphors Be With You . . . ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 11:18:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cadaly Subject: Re: unusual request/punk rock name MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I dunno, screaming faeces seems to similar to scraping feotus or small faces. Yodeltrope? Heliotrope sounds like a metal band, but someone once said, "What happened to hardcore? We learned how to play and are metal." Ventilator is very late seventies. however, the band is supposed to go through the process, with the idea that as the naming process, so the career in and as the band, I thought Catherine ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 14:38:27 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: unusual request/punk rock name MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/3/01 1:52:51 PM, anastasios.kozaitis@VERIZON.NET writes: << How about Oedipus and the Electric Waist Band Polity and Prison Illegitimate Presidents The Inauthentics The Flying Kennedys >> I've got it! BASH. Tough, short, memorable. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 11:55:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jennifer calkins Subject: The Germ, query In-Reply-To: <00e301c11ba8$e5af2140$ce1886d4@overgrowngarden> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear Poetry people, Is The Germ still up and running? jen __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 15:00:57 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: patrick herron Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath and Who's Great Comments: To: J Gallaher In-Reply-To: <3B6AA5F0.14159.331BBB@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you! BUT BUT BUT...no caveats/conditions! "John Ashbery is great. (Or looms greatly over the second half of the last > century, at least.)" Does he merely loom, or is he great, in your opinion? Confirm! or Deny! Have courage! I'd say you'd confirm but may be playing this one too safely, dear friend. Yet, ironically, you are being more like a critical daredevil than any other of the avant radical forks around here....so kudos to you for making the risky move of your queen. So again, I'm prodding, not criticizing. I'm just asking if you're ready to let go the piece where it is, and commit to your move, or keep your hand on it & pull it back. (Herein lies the trouble with "great" and "the test of time" methinks.) Thanks for indulging me, and let me know if you are committed to "John Ashbery is great." I'll TRIPLE DARE ANYONE TO NAME SOMEONE WHO'S UNDER 50 YEARS OLD AND STILL ALIVE!!! DOUBLE DARE, STILL ALIVE, TRIPLE DARE, UNDER 50 AND STILL ALIVE. SINGLE DARE, SOMEONE WHO'S DEAD BUT WOULD BE UNDER 50 IF ALIVE TODAY (there's safety in death). TRIPLE DARE, and you get free poetry mailed to you by me (no I don't mean to DIScourage you). Patrick ...And All Show With You > -----Original Message----- > From: J Gallaher [mailto:Gallaher@mail.uca.edu] > Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 2:24 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU; patrick@proximate.org > Subject: Sylvia Plath and Who's Great > > > Patrick's Challenge: > > "Michel Angelo" and Blake are, well, safe, aren't they? I agree with > both of you. But name someone who's still alive, and then we'll have > a position on contemporary greatness. So I dare you, no, I > DOUBLE-DARE you.> > > Easy enough, I think, so I'll jump in: > > John Ashbery is great. (Or looms greatly over the second half of the last > century, at least.) > > Great-fully, > JG > ------------------- > > J Gallaher > > Metaphors Be With You . . . > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 15:19:48 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: patrick herron Subject: Serpico Rising, Or, All I Did Was Say "Hello" Comments: To: Alex Verhoeven , Chris Knouff , ImitaPo , Suzie Sisoler , Phaedra Kelly , Giles Hendrix MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit from: David Shove Subject: Police brutality destroys community trust Minnesota Daily Wednesday, July 25th 2001 Police brutality destroys community trust A friend and I were attacked last Saturday night around 11 p.m. We were both man-handled and slammed against the trunk of a car. I was pinned to the car by a stranglehold, and my arm was gashed to the point of requiring stitches. The perpetrators? Two members of the Minneapolis police force. Our crime? Asking a question. Jef Stout, managing editor of Pulse, and I had been biking near the Walker Art Center when we passed a group of five squad cars. Curious, we stopped to ask an officer what had happened. Although we both work for newspapers, we didn't need the force of the media behind our questions. All citizens have the right to ask about police procedures, and while officers might not be obligated to answer, they are in no way justified in responding with unprovoked brutality. After refusing to answer our questions and then harassing us over bike licensing, where only I was in violation, we gave up and began turning around. However, after one of the officers saw Jef glance at the squad car number, he suddenly decided to change his mind and arrest us instead. >From that point on, the situation degenerated into excessive force and irrational behavior. We were roughed up, patted down, cuffed and thrown into the back of a squad car. I had to visit the Hennepin County Medical Center for my injury, and Jef was released around 10 the next morning. We both were charged with "obstructing the legal process," something we now have in common with Bill Clinton, the Highway 55 protestors and one of the Hard Times Café owners. In summary, two bikers stopped to ask police officers a question and ended up cuffed, sore and bloody in the back of a police car. What's wrong with this picture? As it turns out, we weren't the only victims of police abuse that evening. That same Saturday night, another young man, Devonsha Thompson, was beaten by at least five St. Paul police officers after leaving a drill team competition with about 25 other youths. Police claim he kicked a squad car several times, swore at them and ran toward one officer. Although witnesses didn't see Thompson provoke police, they watched in horror as officers slammed Thompson to the ground, surrounded him and struck him with their fists, feet, knees and clubs. Thanks to the immediacy of television reporting and extensive media coverage, most people readily remember instances of police brutality involving Rodney King in Los Angeles and the World Trade Organization protesters in Seattle. But they said they probably don't realize police brutality is more than just a rare occurrence or an isolated incident. It's a force to be dealt with across the nation, even in the Twin Cities. Mayor Sharon Sayles Belton openly admitted this, once stating, "There was a problem and continues to be a problem of excessive force in this community. I'm not going to deny that. I grew up here." In fact, beginning in late 1995, Minneapolis was one of 14 cities involved in a two and a half year Human Rights Watch investigation into police abuse. The investigation found persistent police brutality in all the cities, ranging from sexual assault to murder. Human Rights Watch documented that police and city officials often protected their own, denying each new report of brutality and buffering the offender with a wall of silence. Many officers with long lists of complaints filed against them, would continue to work on the force, and the little punishment meted out to abusive policemen was often long overdue. Serious reforms were only enacted when a brutality case flared into a media scandal. Why does police brutality persist? Why is there a culture of long-standing negligence and apathetic tolerance? Probably because police recognize their protected status. Probably because the system that monitors police behavior is lax and rarely enforced. Probably because the criminal system responsible for punishing those who break the laws practically guarantees impunity to abusive officers. And probably because the most frequent victims of police violence are racial minorities - the most socio-economically disadvantaged and marginalized segments of society. One might argue every human is fallible, and when split-second decisions must be made in high-stress situations, mistakes are bound to occur. Police officers' jobs are life-threatening, and in their everyday work, they must often witness the seedy horrors of life that few of us can even imagine. Police regularly deal with the scum of humanity, and some of these officers become personally scarred by their work. Yet even so, episodes of brutality and abuse cannot and should not be brushed aside by excuses of "bad days" or "emotional trauma." Violations of human rights should never be permitted because of personal error or mere contingencies. Some values must supersede individual circumstances. Can you imagine if doctors tried to pass off malpractice suits with such reasons? "I was having a bad day, I overreacted a bit in the operating room, and whoops, there went your kid's life. Sorry." The doctor would lose his license faster than a drunk driver. But when cops overreact? Police chiefs explain, "I think the appropriate amount of force was used." We, as citizens, entrust the police with upholding and executing the laws that protect us. Yet we must realize that when we grant them the power to preserve the law, we also grant them the power to abuse the law. But does this mean every police officer is guilty of abusing his authority, violating the rights of innocent citizens? Of course not. Usually, only a few officers have records of brutality, although those few corrode the reputation and the public trust of the entire profession. And when government institutions - especially the police - act without virtue and without regard for people's rights, they lose credibility and legitimacy in the eyes of the people. I'm sure I'm not the only one who now inwardly cringes when I see a police car drive by. Pulse of the Twin Cities is running a series of excerpts until Aug. 22 from former Minneapolis police chief Tony Bouza's book, "Unbound: Corruption, Abuse and Heroism by the Boys in Blue." Samantha Pace is the opinions editor at The Minnesota Daily. She welcomes comments at space@mndaily.com. Send letters to the editor to letters@daily.umn.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 14:36:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath and Who's Great Comments: To: patrick@proximate.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Patrick writes, in regards John Ashbery: OK, I admit it. The second sentence could/might be construed as a hedge. So I'll say it loud and proud: John Ashbery is great and will stand the test of time, or my name isn't Patrick Herron. Signed, John's mother ----------------------- J Gallaher Metaphors Be With You . . . ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 14:03:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bertha Rogers Subject: NYSLITTREE UPDATE FROM BHP & NYSCA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable Dear Friends, No dog days in New York -- the state is alive with literature events, and the NYS Literary Curators web site, brought to you by Bright Hill Press in partnership with the New York State Council on the Arts, has them all: Note, especially, this weekend's Word Thursdays Speaking the Words Fest, with readings, dinners, and special appearances by the 9 foot long, 5 1/2 foot high "Igni" dragon, created by Literary Workshop Kids; and the upcoming Woodstock Poetry Festival on August 24, 25, and 16, featuring Billy Collins, Patricia Geodicke, Stephen Dunn, Robert Bly, and many, many regional poets (find a complete listing of readings and performances on the Events page). We welcome, too, the Howland Cultural Center of Beacon, NY, and the Woodstock Poetry Society. On the Circuit Writers page, several new writers are listed, including Helen Duberstein, Daniela Gioseffi, Robert Long, and Harriet Zinnes. If you are writer with a book and would like to be included on the Circuit or Interstate Writers Page follow the format and email us the information IN THE BODY OF THE EMAIL NOT AS AN ATTACHMENT, and we=92ll post it. If you're a new reading series, send us your information. If you're a writer who has several readings to list, send them to us, and we'll post them under the presenting organization's name; they must include location address, phone number, and/or email address. If you wish to unsubscribe, just notify us. Questions? Comments? Email us at wordthur@catskill.net NOTE: SORRY, BUT, DUE TO RAMPANT WORMS & VIRUSES, WE WILL NOT ACCEPT ANY MORE ATTACHMENTS; SEND INFORMATION IN THE BODY OF THE EMAIL ONLY. Bertha Rogers Site Administrator Brittney Schoonebeek Assistant ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 13:04:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Del Ray Cross Subject: SHAMPOO SEVEN MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Lovely Folks, Shampoo Issue Seven is ready for you to take it to the bathtub!! Here's where to find it: http://www.ShampooPoetry.com Includes swell poems by Terence Winch, Dylan Willoughby, Laurel Snyder, Kathy Lou Schultz, Tracy Scarpino, Larry Sawyer, Sheila E. Murphy, Jay Marvin, Amy King, Jim Jenkins, Glenn Ingersoll, Yuri Hospodar, Vernon Frazer, Michael Farrell, Corwin Ericson, Elaine Equi, MTC Cronin, Lisa Beskin, Angela Ball, and William Allegrezza, along with cover art by Joe Vallina. Don't miss out! Bubble up, Del Ray Cross, Editor SHAMPOO clean hair / good poetry www.ShampooPoetry.com If you'd like to be removed from this e-list, just let me know. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 13:10:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: Los Angeles Readings at the Hammer, August Comments: cc: WOM-PO@listserv.muohio.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hammer Readings: New Writing from Los Angeles organized by Benjamin Weissman in connection with Snapshot: New Art from Los Angeles at the UCLA Hammer Museum http://www.hammer.ucla.edu Thursday, August 9 at 7 pm Sean Dungan Peter Josephs Carol Treadwell Thursday, August 16 at 7 pm Victoria Morrow Bruce Wagner 10899 Wilshire Boulevard, Los Angeles 310-443-7000 FREE ___________________________________________ Double Lucy Books & Outlet Magazine http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy ___________________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy/page2.html ___________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 13:19:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: sister plug and new email Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Poetix & other dears! Two bits: My sister and fellow Outlet editress, CAROL TREADWELL, will be reading this coming Thursday, August 9 at 7 PM, with Sean Dungan & Peter Josephs, at the UCLA Hammer Museum in a series organized by Benjamin Weissman. She's a brilliant fiction writer, simultaneously wild & serene, & I do say so myself as her elder sis. The event is free & more info's at http://www.hammer.ucla.edu or 310-443-7000. The Hammer's address is 10899 Wilshire Bl, LA (Westwoodish). Secondly, Double Lucy and I are moving our email address to eliztj@hotmail.com. Our ISP is shutting down brick by apparent brick, already I can't receive messages here (so please resend to hotmail if nec) and suppose our Lucy site will fade away shortly. I will update on its resurrection. Thanks! Elizabeth ___________________________________________ Double Lucy Books & Outlet Magazine http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy ___________________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy/page2.html ___________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 15:50:16 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Re: unusual request/punk rock name Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit how about just naming after anarchists? for example La Bande a Bonnot or Makhno or amy number of names you can find in James Joll's for example history of Anarchism? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 16:54:11 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: patrick herron Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath and Who's Great Comments: To: J Gallaher In-Reply-To: <3B6AB6EC.23969.757F5A@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is that the inclusive 'or', or the exclusive 'or'? 'Cause ya ain't me, or my name ain't Al Franken. CONFIRM OR DENY! AIN'T NO HALF-STEPPIN ROUN' HE-AH ON THE DOUBLE DA-AH! J Gallagher says: (please mark with an x) JOHN ASHBERY IS GREAT: ___yes ____no ____HALF-STEPPIN' (Fear you, son, cause you can't do me none So, think about it if you're trying to go When you want to step to me, I think you should know that... Ain't no half-steppin? I'm the Big Daddy Kane --Ain't No Half-Steppin, Big Daddy Kane) Wicky wicky wicky, Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: J Gallaher [mailto:Gallaher@mail.uca.edu] > Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 3:36 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU; patrick@proximate.org > Subject: RE: Sylvia Plath and Who's Great > > > Patrick writes, in regards John Ashbery: > > Deny! Have courage! I'd say you'd confirm but may be playing this one > too safely> > > OK, I admit it. The second sentence could/might be construed as a > hedge. So I'll say it loud and proud: John Ashbery is great and will > stand the test of time, or my name isn't Patrick Herron. > > Signed, > John's mother > > ----------------------- > > J Gallaher > > Metaphors Be With You . . . > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 13:53:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: last for today - Ms Plath Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thank you Julie, Gwyn, and Richard! for your lovely posts. Of course when suicide hits close (as it has twice for me) it is shocking, angering, deeply saddening and hard to comprehend. But still I love my grandma and my best friend's step mom, and am simply only sorry and grieving that they ended their lives in such torture. I am sure if Ms. Sylvia looks down on us at all it is not with much concern for our opinions of her acts and with a hell of a lot of concern for her children. cheerio, E ___________________________________________ Double Lucy Books & Outlet Magazine http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy ___________________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy/page2.html ___________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 16:06:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Sylvia Plath Might Not Be but Who is "Great" Comments: To: patrick@proximate.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Patrick Demands: <<(please mark with an x) JOHN ASHBERY IS GREAT: ___yes ____no ____HALF-STEPPIN'>> I Reply: X Regards, JG PS. With all proper bows to TONE and VOICE and what Is and Is Not. PPS. Great is being read as "Great", right? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 14:10:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: thought I'd add Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thought I'd add, so she's not embarassed, that I am not alone in thinking CAROL TREADWELL is a fantastic writer -- her work's appeared in the anthologies Snowflake (Smart Art Press), Unnatural Disasters: Recent Writings from the Golden State (Incommunicado Press), Blind Date (Cal-Arts), I'm Still in Love with You, Song Poems, as well as Errant Bodies and other magazines. She might be embarassed that I've added this thus, but don't blame her for an overeager elder sis, just go check out her reading, if you're in LA. At the Hammer August 9 (http://www.hammer.ucla.edu) xx, Eliz ___________________________________________ Double Lucy Books & Outlet Magazine http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy ___________________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy/page2.html ___________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 13:35:32 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: patrick herron Subject: FW: Cybersickness (fwd) Comments: To: Giles Hendrix , ImitaPo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Whoops! The correct link is: http://www.citypaper.net/articles/032196/article038.shtml -----Original Message----- From: Giles Hendrix [mailto:ghendrix@webslingerZ.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 10:36 PM To: patrick@proximate.org Subject: Cybersickness (fwd) think the url changed or something... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 22:20:49 -0400 From: "(patrick herron)" To: UBPO , ImitaPo , Giles Hendrix Subject: Cybersickness One final safety consideration involves the psychological effects that these games can trigger, including disorientation, anxiety, illusory motion sensations (persistent feelings that one is climbing, falling or flying long after the game is over), perceived disturbances in the visual field (hallucinations and after-images... er... ahem!), inappropriate reflexes and disrupted motor control. Astoundingly enough, consistent use of these programs creates new neural pathways in the brain — connections that may not be appropriate paths for brain impulses to travel in real-life situations. (Technology Review mentions a woman who, after using a virtual program designed to show the inside of the human body to doctors and medical students, became so disoriented that shortly afterwards, while drinking from a can of soda, poured soda into her eyes rather than her mouth. After years of anecdotal evidence that fighter pilots trained in flight simulators were experiencing flashbacks and disorientation while driving their cars, and a study that concluded that 14% of helicopter pilots trained in simulators reported motion sickness, and yet other studies that found flashbacks, disorientation, and balance disturbances that lasted for up to 12 hours, the Army, Navy and Marines have decided to ban driving or flying for 24 hours after the symptoms subside in people who have experienced cybersickness.) from: http://www.citypaper.net/articles/032196/article013.shtml (full article) Patrick Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org http://proximate.org/ getting close is what we're all about here! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 14:36:26 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: patrick herron Subject: Re: middle eastern music, Bromige, phony-ness, The Octopus Comments: To: Gary Sullivan In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.geocities.com/yozing/IBO.html links to info on Ibrahim Tatlises...don't know how good it is. Funny, Gary, people ARE afraid to argue, and I think that's why discussions either end up being so predictably placid and dull or completely ad hominem and brutal. It seems the comfort level with argument, challenging ideas without challenging individuals, is often difficult for many. I miss getting drunk in the bars of Vienna and Amsterdam, getting drunk with folks who have different politics than my own, and we'd argue and argue and argue politics and art and whatnot and buy each other drinks. That sort of openness and comfort in argument is something I miss dearly. Tho' there are surely many who are capable of such forthright & challenging engagement on this list. Not all of us are so predictable. best, Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: Gary Sullivan [mailto:gpsullivan@hotmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 2:49 AM > To: patrick@proximate.org; POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: middle eastern music, Bromige, phony-ness, The Octopus > > > Hi Patrick, > > Yeah, I think you're right. I don't know what accounts for the dearth of > English-language material on the subject, but the site you sent > it is pretty > good. Lots of links. To add another frustrating wrinkle, a lot of > the sites > I've found that are devoted, generally, to middle eastern music > tend to shy > from Turkish music. That's true even of Rashid's (this > CD/cassette place on > Court Street in Brooklyn, as well as this bodega I've been going > to on 5th > Ave & 16th Street, also in Brooklyn) ... there's a clear separation of > "arabic" middle eastern & Turkish. I broke down & got the world > music book I > mentioned earlier ("The Rough Guide") & discovered why that is: there's a > kind of "purist" impulse, not always, but generally ... where > Turkish music > is sort of "kept pure" of arab influence, & vice versa. I mean, that's a > sweeping generalization (& one that I'd have to have a much > clearer sense of > the modalities / rhythms used to fully understand), but one I'm sort of > encountering again & again, & which becomes ... well ... frustrating. > There's also -- as you would guess -- a separation between "traditional" > popular music and what in English gets referred to as "pop." > Which is sort > of arbitrary, considering it has to do with one's influences ("pop" is > described as "other-influenced"), and "traditional" arab popular music is > hardly free from Western & myriad other influence(s). > > Does anyone on the list know anything about Ibrahim Tatlises? "The Rough > Guide" says that Tatlises is at least half Kurdish -- but that he doesn't > sing in Kurdish (which would have, up until recently, meant imprisonment, > torture and/or death, in Turkey). It constrasts him with Sivan Perwer, > considered to be "the voice of the Kurdish people," whose work is widely > smuggled into Iraq & Iran "at great risk" (the book doesn't > mention Turkey, > though probably his work has been smuggled there, too) ... he, by > the way, > is exiled in Germany. > > It's kind of amazing to read all of this stuff (while not a great > overview, > the Rough Guide *is* turning out to be a great primer so far as > socio-political context for the music goes) as a basically dispassionate > other. It's also fairly depressing. Like, it's unfair of me, but you can > make a kind of correlation between the "purity" v. "use > everything" (or more > generously put: "Let's have a conversation instead of an > argument") impulses > here with how similar impulses get played out in pretty much all > art-production & related discourse. It's so ... what? ... predictable. > > Anyway, reading all of this I suddenly wanted to go back to what Ron had > said about little magazines, and maybe ask: is prejudice a value we can > continue, as editors, to support? The question's too simple, as put (& no > doubt unfairly characterizes Ron's concerns), but it's late & I'm kind of > exhausted. Maybe somewhat better put would be to ask, What if an > editor sees > a "conscious program" *as* mere prejudice, akin to "nationalist > impulse," & > finds that to be totally unsupportable, or at the very least of > negligible > use-value? > > One of my favorite living poets is David Bromige, whose work -- more than > anyone I can personally think of of his generation -- really discards the > notion of a comfortable p.o.v. _Threads_ is (to me, anyway) > totally unlike > _Birds of the West_ or _Tight Corners_. & then, _My Poetry_ ... > and so on up > through "T Is for Tether" (which I haven't read, only heard him read, a > wonderful reading at the Project when Mitch Highfill was curating.) Each > book -- and maybe I'm overly exaggerating for effect here -- > really seems to > me to come out of some completely different "space." There's that > semi-famous Ron Padgett poem "Voice," which I think Bromige more > than anyone > I can think of lives up to: > > I never thought > such a thing existed. Until > recently. Now I know it does. > I hope I never find mine. I > wish to remain a phony the rest of my life. > > It's amazing how charged the idea "phony" w/respect to artistic > production > is, and the extent to which people still cling to notions of > "authentic," in > whatever language it happens to be couched in. Recently, not to > single out > Ron, there's been a whole debate about what magazines are or are not > "authentic" representations of whatever it is one assumes contemporary > poetry is supposed to be "doing" in English these days. I dunno. > It's kind > of a boredom-inducing topic, frankly. (I have insomnia; thus, this post?) > > I don't wanna reduce Bromige & his work to some Poetics List > debate fodder > -- so, yeah, it's more than a variety of formal approach ("poetry as > air-traffic control") that thrills me about what he does, it's > the amazing > sense I get, opening & entering each book, of a wholly different or > differently-situated p.o.v. How he just allows his own impulses > to manifest > themselves formally & otherwise. I can't remember the oud player whose > nickname is "the octopus" (because I guess you'd have to have so many > tentacles to pull that off), but Bromige is definitely my English > language > poetry octopus. So not just myriad forms, but myriad states of mind, of > attention, of approach -- like if the question is How most accurately > portray "being human," and this series of books being a kind of answer to > that ... > > Maybe? > > Gary > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 00:29:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rebecca Wolff Subject: punk band name In-Reply-To: <20010804040933.D954818CAB@mail.angel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've always liked "Meds" ********** Rebecca Wolff Fence et al. 14 Fifth Avenue, #1A New York, NY 10011 http://www.fencemag.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 03:11:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - holding in perfect humility walk in the way of the lord, you are nothing, your soul needs salvation, there is no salvation, you sin constantly, you must forget sinning, you must forget wealth, accept poverty you will suffer and your suffering will be good, you can be absolved in the last moments, you will bring other beings to fruition, you will enter heavens and more heavens, your cycles will be complete, you will be uni- ted, you will recognize the absurdity of existence, you will be exalted give up the ways of the world, sexuality is a curse, women are a curse, you will be constantly deceived, you must constantly meditate, be silent, tend towards salvation in everything you do, be kind to all animals, take up not the sword nor the spear, you must fly with the arrow, not the bow, your flesh is sinful listen until there is no listening, speak until there is no speech, seek a master, give yourself totally to him, the learnings cannot be achieved without him, impart nothing, say nothing, remain with him, serve him to- tally, turn your face towards the wall, remember the sufferings of others follow the precepts of thy neighbor, leave the red dust of the world, unite with the lord in all his manifestations, seek holiness through plea- sure, seeking the holy drives the holy away, listen to the parables and precepts, obey the precepts, do not question them, speak only when spoken to, eat in silence with the others, think proper thoughts with your body turned to the wall follow regular hours, seek the lord in everything you do, give yourself up to the way, follow the way with drunkenness and laughter, let pine nuts be thy only food, have compassion for all living things, seek without seeking and find without finding, know the truth when thou hast left it behind, find the truth in everything you do know that where you are is where you have always been and where you will always be, do not steal or be jealous of others in the brotherhood, seek no office, follow all rites of purification, clean the mirror with thy breath, recognize there is no mirror, no breath, clean the mirror with thy breath, lie on beds of straw, walk with shoes of straw, follow in the footsteps of the master be patient beyond patience, be obedient beyond obedience, give thy last farthing and thou shalt be rewarded in the reaches of heaven, expect noth- ing in return, recognize thou wilt return to the dust from which thou hast come, know the world is full of pain and misery, do not contribute to that misery, pray for the salvation of all beings, recognize the spirit in everything you do and in all ways and being of the world look for the wise in everything you do, abjure the ways of the vain and the foolish, find a likely spot for meditation, avoid gambling and consor- ting with women, remain on the path without any expectation, see the good in everyone and everything, recognize the vanity of this world which is only an illusion, seek the future in the past, honor thy parents from which thou came, recognize the reality of all things and their denial know that negation is nought, that assertion is nought, that companion- ship is nought, seek only that which may be found within thyself, look into the shell of the skull, the annihilation of the body, find ecstasy in everything you do, tame the passion within you, purify thy hands and face after eating and bathing, hold no false associations, always look beyond, recognize what is beyond is always present, know that all is present already within you, look before you, pray constantly, meditate at all times watch where you walk, walk in the ways of the master, walk in the ways of holiness, never sleep on a bad conscience, look always towards paradise, expect nothing and gain everything, expect everything and gain nothing, guard thyself against vanity, recognize that sexual passion is the culprit of the age, perceive that nothing has meaning, that everything is no-thing, that no-thing is everything and nothing, attend to thy breathing out and breathing in deceive no one, see movement in stasis, stasis in movement, know the smal- lest is also the largest, hold the universe in thy hand, recognize there is no size, no universe, recognize the dual and the one, hold the one in the other, and the other in the one, know that from the one, two emerge, from the two, emerge all others, recognize the others within you, recog- nize you within all others, hold penance for the ways of the world, make thyself like iron or steel for the good of all beings take the middle way, take the way of one extreme to the other, seek the pivot within, hold to the central point, seek yourself through yourself, remain calm in paradox, eat only prescribed foods, live in the purity of proper nourishment, understand the transparency of birth and death, always prepare for death, never prepare for death, live in thy tomb and thy grave, know that wandering is also an attachment, speak only when spoken to, write only when requested, become a scribe for the world, recognize thou art a world for a scribe, look nowhere else, look nowhere, seek thy- self in women, seek thyself in men, comprehend perfect unity, understand unity is illusion, men and women are illusion, scripture is illusion, attachment and silence are illusion neither fear death nor love life _ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 08:09:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Carter Subject: dark matter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" { } dark matter ghosts lurk though not really ghosts a kind of other to the others greets lets be node its presents if it may sew/sow pre-zoom versed more letter as useful illoozetions unfold/unfoiled with some delay upon delay for guitars voice keyboards or whatever may be the caves output letter sea as it wove itself into the fizzible -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 14:28:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: Re: Poets' punk band names ("AND THE BOYS ARE THRILLED") Comments: To: "Ammonides@AOL.COM" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ammonides@AOL.COM wrote: > and one of them said, "Is anybody on here more or less famous?" . . . . (Three of the band are gay, so all the names mentioned in this vein were male, I think. So, they are considering some of the above, plus one that for the moment seems to be the front-runner: "The Homosocials. -------------------------------------------------- 1. The Eve Kosofsky Sedgwicks (queer theorist author of "Between men: English literature and male homosocial desire", text that launched the term "homosocial") 2. MENSA NAMBLA 3. The Molested Boyscouts 4. Guess Which Three of Us Are Gay ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 19:47:00 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Etal. Hi. If and when suicide is wrong - and how we define wrong is problematic itself - I think it is as it affects us as a group: especially those who most love us or are loved by but also it seems we have a "responsibility" to tough it out. Look, I dont always feel so bright about things myself. If I'm criticising those who in deep despair take their own life it is because I came close to doing just that myself (about 1991 I think). What stopped me - apart from cowardice or the logical terror of self extinction - was also the consideration of the responsibility to my own children and to my mother (who was then alive) my friends and so on. Gradually I "pulled myself out" of the depression and by using positive thinking now I never feel depression...malaise, sadness at times, but not that deep depression. But I do understand...dont worry I know that I cant judge Plath (whoever or whatever and which Plath was/is that we are trying to discuss): maybe it's that in anger I could say "no!" but sadly it's too late. It's good that we talk of these matters. It doesnt diminish for me the wonderful poetry that Plath wrote: anymore than say discovering that WCW had some dodgy attitudes to women diminishes his work. Maybe Hitler could have written great poetry. Who knows? My point when I made it re responsibility was maybe a working approach we need to take to the whole confessional "movement" (and that lead to my suggestion that Alan Williamson (in "Introspection and Contemporary Poetry") had some positive views of or saw the positive potential both artistically and "therapeutically" of that movement) and also to certain good and bad romantic concepts that often lead down bizzarre path ways but do also often genertate "great" or high energy works: Yeat's crazy ideas, Eliots peccadillos, whatever was wrong with Elizabeth Bishop, is right/ wrong with me and maybe others on this List and so on. Berryman had at least a responsibility to himself, his students, whatever women he loved at the time or anyone who cared for...maybe even for those who had to drag his body - decayed probably - out of a river..maybe to society. That he had no children possibly makes it seem less irresponsible. But I use the term "seems"...as in Shakespear "seems is not is".... warily. OK I've shifted my position - and given my own doubts and counter thoughts: a deep part of me screams out that self destruction is almost always wrong. Wrong againgst life. That doesnt come from any logic: it is my feeling. Regards, Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Corbett" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 4:54 AM Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath > Richard. (and others). If Plath had had no children, would her suicide > have been as wrong? Would we discuss John Berryman's suicide in the same > manner, viz. Mr. Jullich's claim that Sylvia is to suicide what Paul > DeMan is to deconstruction? > > Robert > > > -- > Robert Corbett "I will discuss perfidy with scholars as > rcor@u.washington.edu as if spurning kisses, I will sip > Department of English the marble marrow of empire. I want sugar > University of Washington but I shall never wear shame and if you > call that sophistry then what is Love" > - Lisa Robertson > > On Sun, 29 Jul 2001, richard.tylr wrote: > > > Elizabeth, It's natural that people should talk about Plath AND her > > children. Let's be open or "confesional" : it has been said that suicide is > > highly irresponsible, and highly unfeeling of others who are close or > > associated with oneself. If that aspect of things is brought to the > > attention of someone thinking of suicide it makes them think hard about that > > act of self destruction. I know that and someone pointing out that, and how > > complex the brain is how long we took to become what we are and so forth, > > and personal responsibility, had such an effect on me (dont worry I've been > > irresponsible and selfish in the worst sense also myself),...:and the effect > > it has...it is MOSTLY a violently selfish self-centred act (using those > > terms in their worst sense - there can be a good self-centredness that > > values others, I feel) ...this you just cant sweep under a carpet as if all > > that mattered was Plath's poetry: or Plath the "oppressed" and "put upon" > > woman...rubbish! Life is far more valuable than any poetry. And her > > children: her attitude as I see it is/was ugly toward them. Maybe people > > need to tough things out a bit more, get a life as they say. Her whole life > > and philosophy or approach to life seems/seemed shallow and ugly: but not > > her poetry...yet the two are connected. > > These things have been in my own life (and probably in many on the List) so > > I'm not "attacking" Plath herself, not putting myself holier, I'm not:.... > > just certain of those obsessions and attitudes which maybe if they had been > > put to her strongly may have saved her, and others....who knows. > > Regards, Richard. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Elizabeth Treadwell" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 12:31 PM > > Subject: Sylvia Plath > > > > > > > right on with your reading of "Daddy", Dodie! > > > > > > Also, if I'm in the right mood I can read anything and I do mean anything > > as > > > "confessional"! > > > > > > I wish people would stop talking about how badly Sylvia Plath served her > > > children; the only person she killed was herself. > > > > > > > > > > > > Taking a break, > > > > > > Elizabeth > > > ___________________________________________ > > > > > > Double Lucy Books & Outlet Magazine > > > http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy > > > ___________________________________________ > > > > > > Elizabeth Treadwell > > > http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy/page2.html > > > ___________________________________________ > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 19:51:23 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: plath/suicide MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill. Good response but: who are the "experts": unkown variables gone to drips at tap ends? I think we all are: you me, everyone. We have life and death choices constantly. hand that can "murder or create". It is an animal / humanimal thing. Regards, Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 5:06 AM Subject: Re: plath/suicide > In a message dated 7/31/01 10:40:09 AM, jarnot@PIPELINE.COM writes: > > << I don't usually post to this list, but it's been surprising to me what > people have been saying about suicide. People don't kill themselves because > they lack character or because they're irresponsible. They kill themselves > because they're in so much pain there's nothing else they can do. > > Best, > Lisa Jarnot > >> > > And Lacan, I believe, considered suicide an acceptable response to that pain. > Those who carry on, who choose life! obviously aren't feeling the same > level of pain. That level must be damn high to override the instinct toward > self-preservation, in any case. Perhaps character has something to do with > how such pain is mediated, with one's defenses, etc. Still, those things are > wired into us via genetics, general environment, parents, education, and the > like. They are not individual choices. But what do I know? These issues > are better left to the experts in the field. Best, Bill > > WilliamJamesAustin.com > KojaPress.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 11:45:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson Subject: Re: plath/suicide Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Thank you Cassie and Lisa! Good grief, would we so easily lay blame at the feet of a mother who died when her children were young because of oh, disease, accident, etc? Suicide is a sign of debilitating illness or suffering, guys. It does strike me that this harsh view of Ms. Plath is rather sexist and otherwise inhumane. Elizabeth _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 20:00:57 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Come on George she was saying that we are all fundanmenally the same. We are all human and have very nuch the same basic emotions needs etc see "The Merchant of Venice" Literature does have some practical uses its not all abstract French theory. Richard Taylor. ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Bowering" To: Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 9:45 AM Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath > >I don't think it's fair or relevant to judge someone as a poor parent > >because they took their own life. Plath's life was her own, to use as she > >wished, > > You seem to think that that assertion does not require supportive argument. > > >I'd suggest she was a person, just like us, > > I have read her poems, and have looked a little at the stuff about > her life, and I do not think that she is just like me. > > > > >Cassie > > > GB > -- > George Bowering > Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 20:29:41 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: geraets Subject: Alan Loney's upcoming Selected essays Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" No doubt a number of you already know of Alan Loney's writing: he's been a key practitioner in New Zealand new writing over a period of some thirty years now and just recently has been producing terrific works, appearing in NZ, Australia and USA. September will see the publication of Alan's awaited 'Reading / Saying / Making: Selected essays', 204 pages, from The Writers Group and 'brief' magazine. As a pre-publication discount offer the book will be available to US-based purchasers at US$17 (for subscribers to 'brief') and US$24.95 (for non-subscibers), inclusive of postage (a major component!). The book will retail at US$24.95. 'brief' itself began in 1995 under Alan's editorship (as 'A Brief Description of the Whole World'). It continues to represent innovative language art in NZ and has included work from Wystan Curnow, Leigh Davis, Michele Leggott, Alan Loney, Alan Brunton, Murray Edmond and other leading writers here. I'm pleased to tell you of the upcoming publication and welcome any enquiries by email or via contact details below. With good wishes, John Geraets Editor/ 'brief' The Writers Group 11-20 Poynton Tce. Auckland 1001, NZ. Ph/fax: 64-9-300 6406 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 10:40:29 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: geraets Subject: Alan Loney's upcoming Selected essays Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Correction to earlier note on pre-publication prices for Alan Loney's 'Selected essays': As a pre-publication discount offer the book will be available to US-based purchasers at US$17 (for subscribers to 'brief') and __US$19.95__ (for non-subscibers), inclusive of postage (a major component!). Offer is valid until 05 September 2001, after which the book will retail at US$24.95. Please contact: John Geraets Editor / brief The Writers Group / 11-20 Poynton Tce / Auckland 1001 / NZ / Ph/fax: 64-9-300 6406 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 02:50:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII think strongly alan, be strong, forget(all voices in thinehead) everything, hold no grudges, walk the true and straight path,listen to no one, do not listen to any inner voice, ignore all things, forget(all voices in thinehead) everything you have thought about, work the writing you have always worked, be true to the straight and narrow, listen to the descent of the words, type this in utter darkness, type this in the dark night of the soul, worry not about theory or abstraction, think nothing of protocol and etiquette, worry not abot spellings and misspellings, consider nothing from friend or enemy, be not suspiciouis or accepting, never look back, never look forward, never look outward, never look inward, do not look and allshall be open, do not look and allshall be closed, hoold fast, hold faster thanthou hast ever held before, do not listen to the voicesin thine head, to not concern thyself (voices in thine head) with the affect and fate of others, remember the vector of the street and trail, remember nothing, remember everything, do not organize what cannot be but of the world, take the world into thine heart, put thyself (voices in thine head) forward into the guise and company of others, forget(all voices in thinehead) thy name and allthy numbers of identification, lose thyself (voices in thine head) not in others, gain nothing, lose noting, take what one can from the prsence, forget(all voices in thinehead)the prsence, hearnothing, forget(all voices in thinehead) thesewords, do nothing, turninward, turn nowhere, circle around no center, look for no center and no noose, take nonewith you and leave none behind, look towardsthe sky and the earth, close the arth and sky like enormous plates upon the tender fabric ofthine soul, be strongerthan thou hast eve been, do not worry of little understanding, do not concern thyself (voices in thine head) of no compreehensins forget(all voices in thinehead) allunderstandings which are not understandings, forget(all voices in thinehead) all comprehensions which are not comprhenesions, remember thine limits, forget(all voices in thinehead) thine limits and inhabit them, remember to be the strongest thou hast ever been, meander never nowhere and in no guise, remember of li ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 16:18:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David L. Erben" Subject: Istanbul Query Comments: To: UB Poetics discussion group MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I am wondering if there is anyone on the list familiar with Istanbul who might recommend a hotel and activities other than the usual sight seeing. Thank you ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 16:52:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Funny Jokes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Funny Jokes Alan Sondheim>> ok here's a stupid joke. what did one pickle say to the other when they were in danger? Alan Sondheim>> you've got me in a pickle. Alan Sondheim>> ok, here's a stupid joke. what did one spark say to the other spark? Alan Sondheim>> that was electrifying. Alan Sondheim>> ok here's a stupid joke. what did one pencil say to the other pencil after they committed a heinous crime? Alan Sondheim>> you've got me in the pen. Alan Sondheim>> ok, here's a stupid joke. what did one window say to the other after an explanation of deconstruction? Alan Sondheim>> i bet you think that was really clear. Alan Sondheim>> ok, here's a stupid joke. what did one plate say to the other after being picked up for espionage? Alan Sondheim>> hold me before i spill the beans. Alan Sondheim>> ok, here's a stupid joke. what did one cup say to the other after a bunch of stupid jokes? Alan Sondheim>> hold me before i spill another bunch of stupid jokes. _ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 12:55:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcella Durand Subject: oily wednesday MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" "Suppose you were an idiot... And suppose you were a member of Congress...But I repeat myself." - Mark Twain On Wednesday night, the U.S. House of Representatives passed a massive energy bill that fails to promote a clean and secure energy future for the U.S. Despite faxes from over 40,000 Environmental Defense Action Network activists urging Congress to oppose the bill unless it was improved, the energy bill's passage amounts to a giveaway to big oil companies and the auto industry. BAD ENERGY BILL PASSES HOUSE: Specifically, the energy bill would open the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, one of the most pristine wilderness areas on the planet, to oil drilling, and would ease restrictions on oil drilling on other public lands. It also would give away over $30 billion in tax breaks to the oil, gas and nuclear industries. What the bill will NOT do is meaningfully address energy conservation. Tax credits for fuel-efficient vehicles were not improved as we had hoped; as passed, protection of public health is not assured and some of the most inefficient vehicles will be eligible for a tax credit. Also, auto industry supporters defeated an amendment to increase the fuel efficiency standard for SUVs from 20.7 mpg to 27.5 mpg. Raising fuel efficiency standards would reduce U.S. oil consumption by up to 1 million barrels a day. That's at least as much oil per day that would be extracted from the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. HOW DID YOUR REPRESENTATIVE VOTE? Arctic Drilling ("AYES" opposed Arctic Drilling - "NOES" supported Arctic Drilling) http://actionnetwork.org/ct/5pzOLQK1uqJW/SUVs Fuel Efficiency Standards for SUVs ("AYES" supported increased fuel efficiency standards - "NOES" opposed increased fuel efficiency standards) http://actionnetwork.org/ct/57zOLQK1uqJO/arctic Final Vote on Energy Bill ("AYES" supported final Energy bill - "NOES" opposed final energy bill) http://actionnetwork.org/ct/t1zOLQK1uqJI/finalvote ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 15:12:26 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Brennan Subject: Corporate Globalization and the Poor (off topic) Comments: To: BRITISH-POETS@jiscmail.ac.uk, working-class-list@listserv.liunet.edu, BBlum6@aol.com, flpoint@hotmail.com, ibid1@earthlink.net, moyercdmm@earthlink.net, CMJBalso@aol.com, alphavil@ix.netcom.com, harrysandy@kreative.net, derekvdt@academypo.fss.fss.pvt.k12.pa.us, Amzemel@aol.com, kjohnson@highland.cc.il.us MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Corporate Globalization and the Poor By Russell Mokhiber and Robert Weissman George Bush has thrown down the gauntlet, issuing a public challenge to the anti-corporate globalization movement. When hundreds of thousands last month demonstrated against the G-8 meeting of rich country leaders in Genoa, Italy, George Bush decried the activists, saying it was the advocates of corporate globalization who genuinely are seeking to advance the interests of the world's poor. It's not enough to mock Bush's pretension of being a defender of the poor by pointing out that, through his giant tax cut, the president has overseen one of the history's great transfers of wealth to the rich in U.S. history. Critics must respond to his claims. Unfortunately, that turns out to be a remarkably easy challenge to meet. The last 20 years of corporate globalization, even measured by the preferred indicators of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and World Bank, have been a disaster for the world's poor. Over the last two decades, Latin America has experienced stagnant growth, and African countries have seen incomes plummet. The only developing countries that have done well in the last two decades are those Asian countries that ignored the standard prescriptions of the IMF and World Bank. The Washington, D.C.-based Center for Economic and Policy Research (CEPR) has published compelling data comparing growth rates from 1980 to 2000 (during the period of ascending IMF/World Bank power, when countries throughout the developing world adhered to the IMF/Bank structural adjustment policy package of slashing government spending, privatizating government-owned enterprises, liberalizing trade, orienting economies to exports and opening up countries to exploitative foreign investment) with the previous 20 year period (when many poor countries focused more on developing their own productive capacity and meeting local needs). The results: "89 countries -- 77 percent, or more than three-fourths -- saw their per capita rate of growth fall by at least five percentage points from the period (1960-1980) to the period (1980-2000). Only 14 countries -- 13 percent -- saw their per capita rate of growth rise by that much from (1960-1980) to (1980-2000)." CEPR found that the growth slowdown has been so severe that "18 countries -- including several in Africa -- would have more than twice as much income per person as they have today, if they had maintained the rate of growth in the last two decades that they had in the previous two decades. The average Mexican would have nearly twice as much income today, and the average Brazilian much more than twice as much, if not for the slowdown of economic growth over the last two decades." A follow-up CEPR study used a similar methodology to look at social indicators. CEPR found that progress in reducing infant mortality, reducing child mortality, increasing literacy and increasing access to education has all slowed during the period of corporate globalization, especially in developing countries. The CEPR global comparisons across time show the bottomline, combined effect of the specific policy components of corporate-friendly policies imposed by the IMF and World Bank and enforced by free trade agreements. These include the following: * Trade Liberalization -- The elimination of tariff protections for agriculture and industries in developing countries often leads to mass layoffs and displacement of the rural poor. In Mexico, for example, opening to U.S. agriculture imports has forced millions of poor farmers, who find themselves unable to compete with Cargill and Archer Daniels Midland, off the land. * Privatization -- IMF and World Bank structural adjustment policies typically call for the sell off of government-owned enterprises to private owners, often foreign investors. Privatization is regularly associated with layoffs and pay cuts for workers in the privatized enterprises. * Cuts in government spending -- Reductions in government spending frequently reduce the ability of the government to provide services to the poor, exacerbating the social pain from rural displacement and industrial layoffs. * Imposition of user fees -- Many IMF and World Bank loans and programs call for the imposition of "user fees" -- charges for the use of government-provided services like schools, health clinics and clean drinking water. For very poor people, even modest charges may result in the denial of access to services. * Export promotion -- Under structural adjustment programs, countries undertake a variety of measures to promote exports, at the expense of production for domestic needs. In the rural sector, the export orientation is often associated with the displacement of poor people who grow food for their own consumption, as their land is taken over by large plantations growing crops for foreign markets. * Higher interest rates -- Attractive to foreign investors, higher interest rates exert a recessionary effect on national economies, leading to higher rates of joblessness. Small businesses, often operated by women, find it more difficult to gain access to affordable credit, and often are unable to survive. Advancing the interests of the poor has nothing to do with the corporate globalization agenda. This agenda is driven first by profit-seeking, and second by ideology. But the corporate globalizers are nothing if not ambitious. They are seeking now to push fast-track negotiating authority through the U.S. Congress, to force all of Latin America into a NAFTA-style trade and investment agreement, launch a new World Trade Organization negotiating round, and intensify the IMF and World Bank's ability to impose structural adjustment through a sham debt relief process. To lessen preventable human suffering, it is imperative that the protesters continue to build the movement against corporate globalization, with everything from street protests to citizen lobbying of Congress. Another world is indeed possible, as the protesters are asserting. But for now the immediate challenge is to stop the corporate globalizers from making the existing one worse. Russell Mokhiber is editor of the Washington, D.C.-based Corporate Crime Reporter. Robert Weissman is editor of the Washington, D.C.-based Multinational Monitor. They are co-authors of Corporate Predators: The Hunt for MegaProfits and the Attack on Democracy (Monroe, Maine: Common Courage Press, 1999). (c) Russell Mokhiber and Robert Weissman _______________________________________________ Focus on the Corporation is a weekly column written by Russell Mokhiber and Robert Weissman. Please feel free to forward the column to friends or repost the column on other lists. If you would like to post the column on a web site or publish it in print format, we ask that you first contact us (russell@essential.org or rob@essential.org). ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 16:54:27 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: punctuation In-Reply-To: <62.11dbf22f.28982f2b@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII fyi Parkes, M.B., _Pause and Effect: An Introduction to the History of Punctuation in the West_. Berkeley: U of California P, 1993. Over the centuries punctuation has become an essential component of written language. Its primary function is to resolve structural uncertainties in a text, and to signal nuances of semantic significance. The importance of the study of punctuation to a number of disciplines will be widely recognised as a result of the publication of this first definitive history. The first part of Pause and Effect identifies the graphic symbols and deals with their history. It covers the antecedents of the repertory of symbols, as well as the ways in which the repertory was refined and augmented with new symbols to meet changing requirements. The second part offers a short general account of the principal influences which have contributed to the ways in which the symbols have been applied in texts, focusing on the evidence of the practice itself rather than on theorists. The treatment enables the reader to compare usages in different periods, and to isolate the principles which underlie the use of punctuation in all periods. The examples and plates which are at the core of the book provide the reader with an opportunity to test the author's observations. The examples are taken from a wide range of literary texts from different periods and languages. Latin texts are accompanied by English translations intended to illustrate the use of punctuation in the originals in so far as this is possible. Pause and Effect is destined to be a standard work. It will stimulate interest and scholarly debates among writers, literary critics, philosophers, linguists, rhetoricians, palaeographers and all those who study the use of language. wild. thanks,] kevin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 17:12:46 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: Re: A shrivelled world Comments: To: Nate and Jane Dorward In-Reply-To: <00e801c11a19$bf7f9a80$41716395@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Nate, the point i was truing to make wasn't so much concerning size of readership (although it seems at least you peek at the Antigonish review the odd time) but rather that certain contemporary UK writing seems to be the target of a systematic unfair shake. while i realize that two does not a trend make it does make a something. cheers, kevin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 16:26:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ". sandra" Subject: Big SIS is Watching You MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Published in Brighton by Justice? - Brighton's Direct Action collective > > ISSUE 312, FRIDAY 6th July, 2001 > > Big SIS is Watching You > > "Everyone was told the Schengen agreement was all about the removal of > internal borders. In fact 98% of it was about police co-operation, > internal > security, public order and securing external borders." - Statewatch. > > As thousands of protestors head to Genoa to demonstrate against the G8 > summit later this month, European leaders are putting their heads together > to try to stop those pesky anti-capitalist demonstrators in their tracks. > > More laws, closed borders and increased police co-operation are all on the > agenda with a special meeting being planned later this month for ministers > to talk about safety at future EU summits. Not that the authorities don't > already have an arsenal of measures at their disposal. > > One of these is the Schengen Information System (SIS) first dreamt up in > the late eighties by interior ministry officials in secret working > parties. > A computerised information exchange system whose purpose is "to maintain > public order and security" SIS stores peoples names, descriptions, > nicknames, sexual behaviour, habits, friends, political opinions and > membership of organisations. You don't have to have done anything wrong to > have your details stored with much of the SIS info 'intelligence' based on > suspicions. Dr Heiner Busch from Germany's Citizens Rights and Policing > complained that "The amount of data is growing and growing." By the end of > the year it's predicted it will have 14 million pieces of information > (much > of it false) including details on 1.9 million people. 15 countries have > now > signed up to SIS. > > 32 year old Artem Chlenov became a victim of SIS when he was arrested at a > peaceful demonstration against police brutality in Gothenburg last month > (see SchNEWS 310). After he was nicked he was put in isolation "for the > sake of national security" and has been there ever since. Artem's crime > was > that in 1997 he was with a group of Russians travelling by train from > Berlin to Prague when he was stopped at the border and his visa queried. > He > was eventually let through. However, he had a collection of souvenirs from > Berlin squats, including the Radikal newspaper, which was eventually > banned > by the German authorities, but which Artem couldn't even read as he only > speaks Russian. Still, that was enough proof to be labelled a potential > terrorist and to be recorded on SIS. A record which Swedish police picked > up more than four years later. > > In 1998, Stephanie Mills, a Greenpeace activist from New Zealand who had > flown into Holland, was denied access to the whole Schengen area because > the French government had entered her and other Greenpeace activists names > into the SIS. > > EUROPOL-AXED > > The Schengen Agreement promised open borders for "markets, goods, services > and people" but a get-out clause says that borders can be closed or > controlled "where public policy and national security so require..." There > is no time limit for the suspension of borders and countries can inform > their neighbours after they've been closed. Earlier this year Belgium > re-introduced border controls to stop (they claimed) record numbers of > Romanian refugees seeking asylum. > > At the weekend Austria re-imposed border controls turning people away who > were trying to get to the protests against the World Economic Forum. This > tactic was also used recently by Czech Republic to stop IMF protestors > getting to Prague, and in Slovenia for USA President Bush's meeting with > Russian premier Putin. Now Italian officials are promising the same > treatment for demonstrators against the G8. They've warned they will halt > what's been called dubbed the 'Anarchist Express' long before it reaches > Genoa. Italian police have promised to stop and search everybody with > British cops on hand to help identify 'troublemakers' who will then > immediately be deported. > > BOOKED > > In the UK the Football (Disorder) Act gives police powers to arrest and > detain people they believe might commit offences and gives magistrates the > power to issue banning-orders where there were "reasonable grounds" that > it > would "help" prevent disorder. How long before 'emergency legislation' > could be extended to anti-capitalist protestors? Stephen Jakobi from Fair > Trials Abroad said the "notion of hooliganism is expanding. Anyone who > demonstrates will be seen as a hooligan." This is already happening in > Germany. During last weekend's protests in Austria a 20-year-old German > student was one of four political activists classified by the German > police > as 'dangerous troublemakers'. Her passport was taken away and she had to > report to a cop station twice a day. If she tried to leave the country she > would have faced a year in gaol. She was arrested during > anti-globalisation > protests in Davos earlier in the year (see SchNEWS 292). No charges have > ever been brought against her but her details were taken and added to the > German Federal Crime Office database. > > So what does happen to all the names and addresses of people arrested en > masse at anti-capitalist protests around Europe but never charged? A > spokesman from Statewatch told SchNEWS "Data will certainly be shared and, > since there's no enforceable data protection rules for such exchanges, > copied into whatever databases or files that the receiving state decides." > Which is reassuring. As one of Artem's friends put it "you better not > travel in EU with the wrong magazines, wrong company, wrong ideas or wrong > outlook. All these are enough reason to record you to SIS, and be the next > international terrorist to be locked up." > > * For details of how to help Artem go to www.tao.ca/~dikobraz/freeartem > (but you'll have to speak Russian). > > * Despite 5,000 police who threatened to "shoot at protesters", strict > border controls, and most protests being banned there were still > demonstrations against the World Economic Forum in Salzburg. To find out > what happened check out http://austria.indymedia.org/ > > * SISNET, is SIS the next generation with plans for it to be up and > running > in time for European Union enlargement. It will enable the electronic > transmission of photos, fingerprints and DNA. Finland wants it to go even > further with "real-time video and sound", including that obtained during > undercover surveillance operations. > > * Police forces from Europe, North America and Australia have all been > invited to an international conference 'maintaining public order: a > democratic approach' in The Hague at the beginning of October. > > * To find out more about how big sis' and bro' are watching you contact > Statewatch, PO BOX 1516, London, N16 0EW. Tel 020-8802-1882 > www.statewatch.org/news > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 10:30:13 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: komninos zervos Subject: Re: Cyborg Manifesto Read-Aloud version In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Ron Silliman wrote: > >>Now hear this: >> >>http://www.research.att.com/~mjm/cgi-bin/ttsdemo >> >>AT&T's research lab has a program that converts text into speech (options: >>male, female, child -- gives you a new sense of gender variety). You can >>insert up to 30 words of text and it will "read it aloud." > >A program called Simple Text, which you can find on most Macs, does the same >thing. There are several variant "voices" to choose from-- none of which >sound very natural. I don't believe there is a word limit. > >Mark DuCharme > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp also there was a plugin called talker which reads pages in a browser if the page has been prepared to do so. ie you write a .talk file of what you want spoken and the talker plugin is activated then the page speaks. unfortunately the world does not operate on macs. http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:gQdyChmOkQQ:www.mvpsolutions.com/PlugInSite/Talker.html++site:www.mvpsolutions.com+talker+plugin&hl=en the text to speech function is great to play with, the synthetic voices will attempt to read anything you write, even if they are not recognizable words, or even large blocks of text with no punctuation. you can script to take advantage of this. what's more you can alter the base and pitch of the voice. here's somes experiments i did in 1995, 1996, but as i say you have to be on a mac and have 'talker' installed, http://www.experimedia.vic.gov.au/~komninos/talk01.html recently i have tried a flash version. http://www.gu.edu.au/school/art/text/speciss/issue2/kom/soundpoem.swf cheers komninos ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 15:16:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Cassie Lewis Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear George, My point was that I don't buy into the mythologising and analysis of Plath's life, it's just not that interesting to me. Her poems are good, and them I can learn from. Why is it such a strange notion to say that Plath was a regular person? I make that assumption about most people. It is my way of deflating the hype that surrounds her. What makes her different? The suicide? Unfortunately that is all too common. The poetry? For sure- but all the theorizing about her morality I think leads us away from that work, not towards it. As far as judgements about her parenting etc, it is all about speculation, isn't it? So why then the need for evidence? I have a distaste for holding parents responsible for anything and everything, as though their lives stopped when they had kids, and by extension as though there weren't a bigger social context for Plath's depression. But I'm bowing out of this discussion now. Best from Cassie On Thu, 2 Aug 2001 14:45:26 -0700, UB Poetics discussion group wrote: | >I don't think it's fair or relevant to judge someone as a poor parent | >because they took their own life. Plath's life was her own, to use as she | >wished, | | You seem to think that that assertion does not require supportive argument. | | >I'd suggest she was a person, just like us, | | I have read her poems, and have looked a little at the stuff about | her life, and I do not think that she is just like me. | | | | >Cassie | > | GB | -- | George Bowering | Fax 604-266-9000 _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 10:40:24 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: komninos zervos Subject: Re: Dart post to Joe In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Dear Joe Amato, > >Yes, Ammonides Diodoros is my real name. The false one on my license >and resume is all wrong; it's caused pain everywhere, in the >"on-line world" and in my own house. My sons have wept themselves to >sleep on twenty-five or thirty-nine nights. I'll never get a job at >a research institution. Yannis Ritsos was a teacher of mine. I hate >what the Comintern did to the communist resistance in the mountains. >Boulder is one of my favorite cities. Because it must be opened like >a cut. A poet kisses her own plaster head. Puts a leg over the >shoulder of the other. "Sidewalks of the City" by Lucinda Williams >is the greatest song ever. Except for "Which Will". But Meredith >Monk is even better. Please respond to me. Because a Creative >Writing teacher who can say: "Please forgive me if it is your real >name... no hard feelings!" still has so much more to say to others >and to himself. Like all of us, distressed in our appellations. I >love you, and I love, too, the writing implement held coyl! > y ! >against your lips. And, frankly, > I don't give a fuck anymore. There is a kind of hollow pole that >connects my name to yours. Through which this post is a kind of dart >aimed at your forgiving tongue. > >Ammonides ammonides diodoros sounds like a good name for a punk band! komninos zervos ps ritsos, the antartes, my influences also, have you heard the poetry of katerina gogou? early 1980s - soundtrack of film about petty criminal nikos kouemtzis, i think the movie was called 'sto dromo'. cheers k ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 17:34:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: a punk rock name Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Anselm and the Anti-Laureates --Jim _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 15:02:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Walter Lew Subject: re Read-Aloud software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I used to use Corel WordPerfect 3.5 and that version had 24 voices, such as: Albert Bad News Bahh Bells Boing Bruce Bubbles Carlos Catalina Cellos Deranged Good news, etc. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 09:38:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: owner-realpoetik@SCN.ORG Subject: RealPoetik Doug McClellan Doug McCellan provides proof to critics that RealPoetik posts doggeral with these selections from his DUMBO (Doggeral to Undermine the Mach- inations of the Bush Oligarchy) Project (unrealized, with a goal of writing a verse a day and circulating them via email list to various friends). Guess whose email list? He can be reached at deemac@cruzio.com. Dumbo #4 Dubya's getting downright bossy As he saddles up the posse. Star Wars. Cold War. Just like it was before. Enemies show up mighty fine On the Holy Bottom Line. Dumbo #6 Ee-lection or See-lection Neither one will really do After just a little reflection What the hell, let's call it a coup Dumbo #7 Dubya's riff on the American Dream Fantasy baseball on the White House green Lure 'em away from drugs and crime Eighteen delinquents at a time Teach 'em the rules of the land of the free 'Cause George Will's gonna referee Dumbo # 8 Dubya's handlers agree in toto "Squash that nonsense from Kyoto What's the good of having pull for If you can't get what you paid in full for" Dumbo #10 Exxon wants to thank her For being extra nice. They're naming a supertanker After Condeleezza Rice In the role that she'll befilling She'll contain mad Arafat To keep the company drilling And all those kitties fat Dumbo #13 Whoopee, hurray, and ho-hosanna Prayer and oil shall fill our tanks Cause Dubya is our top banana We get tax-back bucks in our piggy banks And achieve this blessed state of grace Through the magic of the market place Doug McClellan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 15:31:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath and Who's Great In-Reply-To: <3B6AA5F0.14159.331BBB@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Patrick's Challenge: > >"Michel Angelo" and Blake are, well, safe, aren't they? I agree with >both of you. But name someone who's still alive, and then we'll have >a position on contemporary greatness. So I dare you, no, I >DOUBLE-DARE you.> Well, greatness is nearly impossible without the person's being dead. I mean greatness comes when you are still considered vastly important after all the fads are over. Unless you are Peter the Great or somone. I mean greatness while being alive is mainly a matter of op[inion in individuals ior groups of individuals. I mean do we know whether people in the year 2666 will recognize the name Pollock or Ashbery? -- George Bowering Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 15:35:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath In-Reply-To: <012d01c11cbb$984f9920$fc6d36d2@01397384> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Come on George she was saying that we are all fundanmenally the same. We are >all human and have very nuch the same basic emotions needs etc see "The >Merchant of Venice" Literature does have some practical uses its not all >abstract French theory. Richard Taylor. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "George Bowering" >To: >Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 9:45 AM >Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath That's not what she said. She said that the undividual owns her life and has the moral right to do with it what she wants to do. That is not a given, Very important philosophers and belief systems thru the centuries have had opinions, very serious opinions counter to that simple nihilist notion, > >> >I don't think it's fair or relevant to judge someone as a poor parent >> >because they took their own life. Plath's life was her own, to use as she >> >wished, >> >> You seem to think that that assertion does not require supportive >argument. >> >> >I'd suggest she was a person, just like us, >> >> I have read her poems, and have looked a little at the stuff about >> her life, and I do not think that she is just like me. > > > > > > > > >Cassie > > > > > GB > > -- > > George Bowering > > Fax 604-266-9000 -- George Bowering Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 15:38:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath In-Reply-To: <1729929.996877009611.JavaMail.imail@scorch.excite.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Dear George, > > >Why is it such a strange notion to say that Plath was a regular person? Well, because she was not. A regular person does not write excellent poetry. A suicide, too, is not the norm. > Unfortunately >that is all too common. I dont think so. In my life i have known hundeds of people well, and only a handful have suicided. That is not, I submit, the definition of "all too common." -- George Bowering Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 18:44:26 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: plath/suicide MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/6/01 5:26:34 PM, richard.tylr@XTRA.CO.NZ writes: << Bill. Good response but: who are the "experts": unkown variables gone to drips at tap ends? I think we all are: you me, everyone. We have life and death choices constantly. hand that can "murder or create". It is an animal / humanimal thing. Regards, Richard. >> Nice reference to tsetse, Richard. But I'm assuming that since they spend all those years specializing in such matters, psychiatrists know more about depression, suicide, etc. than do most poets, literary critics and List posters, including myself. Maybe I'm nuts but when I get a pain I still see an MD for his expertise. The MD may not always be right, but s/he has a better chance of knowing what went on, goes on, and will go on than I do. That's all I meant. Certainly didn't mean to suggest that posters shouldn't speculate, especially since my next sentence does just that. Suicide may indeed be a psychotic episode since it violates the hard wired instinct to survive. If that's the case, then even the question of rational choice is called into question. As for the moral dimension, in my view suicide is an ammoral act--so I wasn't really considering that at all. But again, I'm no expert so what do I know? Good to hear from you, Richard! Hope your life sings. How's the family? Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 15:46:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson Subject: The Germ yes and LVNG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi yes, the Germ is still going, just got my beautiful and luscious copy of # 6 with a verylovely cover by Xander Morro, kinda Gorey-ish but more dollhousey, and it's an issue of French poetry trans by mostly American poets, including the two very impressive editors, Andrew Maxwell & MacGregor Card. Also got LVNG # 9 which has a sporty birdlike cover by Basil King and a bunch of really fabulous poems by same, my v favorite of which is "The Maids of Honor 1656". I love how the eds -- Joel Felix and Peter and Michael O'Leary -- have chosen a grouping of work that to me seems to favor writing which is using words and phrases as devices, like decorative devices carrying all these stories and cultural ideas up to our present time. Yes I like that. Elizabeth __________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell http://www.poetrypress.com/avec/populace.html "women have looked the same for two years. By day they look like boys and by night they look like female impersonators." -- Janet Flanner, 1926 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 19:02:52 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath and Who's Great MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/6/01 5:17:48 PM, Gallaher@MAIL.UCA.EDU writes: << Patrick writes, in regards John Ashbery: OK, I admit it. The second sentence could/might be construed as a hedge. So I'll say it loud and proud: John Ashbery is great and will stand the test of time, or my name isn't Patrick Herron. Signed, John's mother>> Dear John's mother, Don't listen to either of these guys. I'M GREAT. Poetry Project, 9:00pm, Saturday. Be there. Bilito WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 16:33:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson Subject: editorial proposal (was Gary's phony-ness...) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I just had an interesting backchannel from Ralph Wessman which I will wait to hear from him to see if I can quote from....basically he was taking up the strand of editorial POVs...and arguing that there needs to be a way of positively bouncing an idea into the open through publishing, rather than just "gathering". I hope to post some of this soon and ask that editors on the list talk about their experience and vision...sounds v interesting to me and goes with Patrick's idee of good argument, talk. Along a related line I recommend Brian Kim Stefans's article on Veronica Forrest-Thomson and her book on poetix. It's at.... http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/jacket14/stefans-forrest-thomson.html __________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell http://www.poetrypress.com/avec/populace.html "women have looked the same for two years. By day they look like boys and by night they look like female impersonators." -- Janet Flanner, 1926 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 19:37:53 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Muffy Bolding Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath and Who's Great MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/6/01 2:17:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time, patrick@PROXIMATE.ORG writes: > Does he merely loom, or is he great, in your opinion? Confirm! or Deny! > Have courage! I'd say you'd confirm but may be playing this one too safely, > dear friend. Yet, ironically, you are being more like a critical daredevil > than any other of the avant radical forks around here....so kudos to you for > making the risky move of your queen. So again, I'm prodding, not > criticizing. I'm just asking if you're ready to let go the piece where it > is, and commit to your move, or keep your hand on it & pull it back. > (Herein lies the trouble with "great" and "the test of time" methinks.) > > Thanks for indulging me, and let me know if you are committed to "John > Ashbery is great." > > I'll TRIPLE DARE ANYONE TO NAME SOMEONE WHO'S UNDER 50 YEARS OLD AND STILL > ALIVE!!! DOUBLE DARE, STILL ALIVE, TRIPLE DARE, UNDER 50 AND STILL ALIVE. > SINGLE DARE, SOMEONE WHO'S DEAD BUT WOULD BE UNDER 50 IF ALIVE TODAY > (there's safety in death). TRIPLE DARE, and you get free poetry mailed to > you by me (no I don't mean to DIScourage you). > > Patrick > > although he is certainly on the far side of fifty, i would most definitely go on record as having said that w.s. merwin is GREAT -- and will, without a doubt, stand the test of time. i saw him read a few months ago here in san diego, and the man verily took my breath away with just his presence -- much less that gorgeous work of his. i was honestly awed...and that doesn't happen everyday. the bottom line is...they just don't make 'em like ol' william stanley anymore, goddamnit. ;) blissfully swimming in the river of bees -- ;) *muffy* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 20:19:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: poetics list stats In-Reply-To: <140103.3205756087@ny-chicagost2a-37.buf.adelphia.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit So, in two months, we've lost a German and a New Zealander, but we've gained a Canadian and a couple of Americans. This list is becoming more north american by the month! -Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 21:54:31 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: patrick herron Subject: The GreatStakes (TM) Comments: To: J Gallaher In-Reply-To: <3B6ACBE9.8484.C77E18@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for indulging (and not indulging, simultaneously) my poetic game-show silliness, JG. Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of J Gallaher > Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 5:06 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Sylvia Plath Might Not Be but Who is "Great" > > > Patrick Demands: > > <<(please mark with an x) > JOHN ASHBERY IS GREAT: > > ___yes ____no ____HALF-STEPPIN'>> > > > I Reply: > > X > > Regards, > JG > > PS. With all proper bows to TONE and VOICE and what Is and Is Not. > PPS. Great is being read as "Great", right? > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 19:07:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson Comments: cc: Ralph.Wessman@forestrytas.com.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Dear All, I thought I'd give my 3 or 4 cents to maybe get a conversation started before I leave to camp for 2 weeks; will definitely listen/read and respond in the 20s of August. Enjoy a euro ish lazy august one and all, as I fight the puritanism that wants me back in the office tmw-- Thought I'd start by mentioning two mags I adore, Gary Sullivan's readme, which only publishes poems by those who contribute in other ways, thus asking for conversation (I apologize to ALL for flip interpretations), and Dodie Bellamy's and Kevin Killian's Mirage/Period(ical) which appears so often and occasionally, as in their issues for the Page Mothers conference and a recent one with Pierre et Gilles on the cover around about the time of Small Press Traffic's fashion/poetry/music show last spring... Ralph Wessman (of not only Australia but Tasmania I believe; I also love Susan Schultz's pacrim Tinfish) sent me a backchannel of which I think the excerpts below have already been rather public (total apologies if overstepping, Ralph)in re recent comments of Ron Silliman, Jim Berhle, Gary Sullivan and self: >a comment by Ken Bolton (an Australian poet, editor and publisher): > >"Unfortunately most literary magazines are themselves edited along the lines upon which ... uninformed writers write: an eclecticism fair to all but unable to select so as to positively advocate systematically or consistently any particular values. Editors don't seem to be editing as if there is anything to prove. Imagine a ware of the literary magazines based on aesthetics - it's unimaginable at the moment." > >Three editors responded, Jenny Lee, Philip Mead and Martin Ball, and I've added their comments below. > > >Jenny Lee: > >Partly it's a practical issue. When you're editing a magazine, unless you rely on whipping around your mates each time an issue is due - a dubious procedure ethically, and one that soon reaches a point of diminishing returns - you're largely depended on what comes in unsolicted, which in turn depends on the kind of material you publish. If you only publish well-crafted realist fiction on the theme of male menopause, word inevitably gets around. Soon the magazine becomes predictable and monochrome; the readers get bored with it, and so do you. To this extent maintaining a fair bit of variety is what you publish is simply a survival strategy. At another level, constantly having to make yes-or-no editorial decisions forces you to confront your own limitations and prejudices. It's easy to manufacture 'aesthetic' reasons for rejecting material that you find uncomfortable; it's much harder to turn the gaze back on your own taken-for-granted asumptions and try to work out why you find it so unsettling. I'd prefer to think of the latter approach as pluralist rather than merely eclectic, as it implies much more deliberate intent. In fact, I'm not so sure that everyone is as eclectic as Ken is suggesting. Many magazines at the very least have distinctive house styles, a lot of which, I suspect, have to do with editorial prejudices and processes of self-censorshop that are almost subliminal. If they're seldom articulated in a programmatic way, it's probably just as well. Certainly it's hard to see any sudden resurgence of the crusading spirit of, say, Angry Penguins or the early Overland in the near future. For my money this is no bad thing. Their kind of self-limiting assumptions about what constitutes 'good writing' can't come close to coping with the diversity of contemporary literary cultures. When the boundaries between languages themselves have become so permeable that the question 'how many words are there in the English language?' is completely unanswerable, it's time to give up the search for the ideal prose model. In this context, does an editorial poicy that is consciously pluralist become an easthetic and political statement in itself? > > >Philip Mead > I can see Ken's point, but I think the landscape has changed, is always changing. The heady contentious days of the early to mid 70s is another world. Then, the little magazine and thus literary scene was subject to certain hegemonies, which meant that opening them out and breaking them apart was the crucial task. Global contacts and sonsciousness, particularly in the North American direction, were an important part of that. new Poetry vs Poetry Australia (a crudely dichotomous eg) was a lining up of certain ideologies and practices that could hold together behind those two sites of production. The sublimination of (mostly) masculinist competitiveness and avant-gardism into "aesthetic" "war" was made possible by the limited horizons - formak, experiential, aesthetic - of Australian literary culture at the time. But once the diversification began there's no stopping it. (And vive la diversification I say.) Today, the concept of "aesthetic war" looks hopelessly out of date, like a set of toy soldiers from childhood. Nor is it a mindless eclecticism that rules. it's just that the field of literaryproduction is so much richer and deeper. It's postmodern, there's no centre,anywhere's a somewhere: from daggy little zines produced by loner writers or tiny coterie groups, to self-consciously "student" publications like Tangent or Verandah, to the old dinosaurs (Meanjin, Overland, Southerly etc), to new hybrids like the UTS Review (New Writing, plus Cultural Studies)m to FR, to Jacket, to all the various poetry publications on the WWW ... Ken's right, there isn't anything to prove, in the 70s sense, there's only myriad kinds of writing and continually expanding possibilities for production. This isn't meant to sound Utopian. It's true, in the midst of all this plenitude, I pick up "April Galleons" or "The Cold of Poetry" more often than the latest issue of ... whatever ... but that's okay. I haven't got any standards. Any my values are stricly my own: > >"It seems I was reading something; >I have forgotten the sense of it or what the small >role of the central poem made me want to feel." > > >Martin Bell > In the apolitics of PoMo, the cultural arena has largely become just a competitive marketplace - especially in thefunding game. The reason Ken Bolton's "war of aesthetics" is unimaginable at the moment for the little magazines, is that the main thing many are "trying to prove" is their viability in the eyes of the funding bodies. Only a very few magazines can afford to sustain a tight political focus - eg, Quadrant, Arena, Eureka Street - and to an extent it's because they cater to institutionalized readerships. Certainly i solicit the majority of work for Siglo; always along a theme, and always inevitably political. But the expedient motivation must firstly be Range and Quality (of which there is only so much to go round) - political aesthetics is then a bonus. Is this a bad thing? Well, it's always a good thing to subvert cultural and political etlites, to engage and debate. But organizing such forums is a time consuming process for editorial stafff, and when time must be costed, it's often a case of going with what and who you have. Polemics doesn't sell as well as broad market appeal - at least that's what we fear. just ask Robert Manne... These Australian editors are so well spoken it is hard to follow. Reasons I started and continued Outlet and Double Lucy include the following-- *Wanting to continue the female tradition of writing and publishing * wanting to give a place for women's writing , but of course those whose aesthetics we can respect and relate to *BUT not ignoring men either as nothing is stable yknow. *Wanting to investigate themes the other eds and I found interesting, of course not just themic but having to do with our own aesthetic tastes in the editing...these vary as one ed is a scholar, one a fiction writer, and two of us more along the lines of poets, plus just our reading habits and thrills. * Our framework became perhaps most clear to me (& I am hardly one to adore clear frameworks) in editing and writing editorialish things for the Heroines issue. I wanted to let in a lot of different reading voices to talk about literature and literary history. I can clearly state that this is because I think literature is not the province or under the true stewardship of an intellectual elite and because doctrinaire things which come from manifestos feminist or Vorticist disturb me. Mix it up man. I guess that's all for now. My husband said recently (when I asked) that he always thought Outlet the title had a bit too much of the "emotional outlet" flair to it, while all along I was thinking of it like an inlet/outlet geographically. Please, other eds and folks, reply. Cheers to one and all, Elizabeth ___________________________________________ Double Lucy Books & Outlet Magazine http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy ___________________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy/page2.html ___________________________________________ __________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell http://www.poetrypress.com/avec/populace.html "women have looked the same for two years. By day they look like boys and by night they look like female impersonators." -- Janet Flanner, 1926 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 23:03:16 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Istanbul Query MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/6/01 4:27:50 PM, derben@UOFT03.UTOLEDO.EDU writes: >I am wondering if there is anyone on the list familiar with Istanbul who >might recommend a hotel and activities other than the usual sight seeing. > >Thank you > David can contact me directly. Murat Nemet-Nejat Muratnn@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 23:40:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: shd: leving MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - :shd leving :shd be wondering about the structures of the future, in spite of teleolo- gies and projections of one or another lowly creature, pulling everything together instead of watching the weather, trying to hold to the greater or larger work, finding insted turned back or jerked into one or another compromising position, shouldn't need the phisician for valium or codeine or sense of relief, i know my limitations, what i mean isn't belief, but the standpoint of leaving, bereaving, trying to make the final statement, what my work is beyond the smashed rhetoric, my life beyond the hectic, collapsed at the foot of the monumental :shd be writing a general phenomenology of leaving & disruption, instead searching out the resulting corruption, looking towards bereaving from the other face in the approach to the other place, shd be thinking helo good- bi, factoring in the desire to cry, i.e. wanna cry, flooded by irretriev- able clutter, the skeain of relationships tends towards sputter, :tiling and memory filter with demonstrable parameters:examples in preview and results later :memory and tiling filter with demonstrable parameters: towards ghosts folowing me everywher as skeins reassemble themselves bar- ren or bare, as if bones alone carried history, alway the same story, chaos hurtled toward the car at highspeed, following the economic traject- ory of need, down the lip of the country, it's barrier at the edge of the planet and everything on it, groping towards the deconstruction of rela- tion at the borderline nation or operation culling wat remanes of the "grater or leser work" or "skeain" "compromsing" or "collapsed at the foot of the memorial" _ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 20:12:55 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Corporate Globalization and the Poor (off topic) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe. Scott Hamilton is very interested in this topic. He's on the list. I am too and with you most of the way but Scott is more "into it" etc. Regards, Richard Taylor. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Brennan" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 7:12 AM Subject: Corporate Globalization and the Poor (off topic) > Corporate Globalization and the Poor > By Russell Mokhiber and Robert Weissman > > George Bush has thrown down the gauntlet, issuing a public challenge to > the anti-corporate globalization movement. When hundreds of thousands last > month demonstrated against the G-8 meeting of rich country leaders in > Genoa, Italy, George Bush decried the activists, saying it was the > advocates of corporate globalization who genuinely are seeking to advance > the interests of the world's poor. > > It's not enough to mock Bush's pretension of being a defender of the poor > by pointing out that, through his giant tax cut, the president has > overseen one of the history's great transfers of wealth to the rich in > U.S. history. Critics must respond to his claims. > > Unfortunately, that turns out to be a remarkably easy challenge to meet. > The last 20 years of corporate globalization, even measured by the > preferred indicators of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and World > Bank, have been a disaster for the world's poor. > > Over the last two decades, Latin America has experienced stagnant growth, > and African countries have seen incomes plummet. The only developing > countries that have done well in the last two decades are those Asian > countries that ignored the standard prescriptions of the IMF and World > Bank. > > The Washington, D.C.-based Center for Economic and Policy Research (CEPR) > has published compelling data comparing growth rates from 1980 to 2000 > (during the period of ascending IMF/World Bank power, when countries > throughout the developing world adhered to the IMF/Bank structural > adjustment policy package of slashing government spending, privatizating > government-owned enterprises, liberalizing trade, orienting economies to > exports and opening up countries to exploitative foreign investment) with > the previous 20 year period (when many poor countries focused more on > developing their own productive capacity and meeting local needs). > > The results: "89 countries -- 77 percent, or more than three-fourths -- > saw their per capita rate of growth fall by at least five percentage > points from the period (1960-1980) to the period (1980-2000). Only 14 > countries -- 13 percent -- saw their per capita rate of growth rise by > that much from (1960-1980) to (1980-2000)." > > CEPR found that the growth slowdown has been so severe that "18 countries > -- including several in Africa -- would have more than twice as much > income per person as they have today, if they had maintained the rate of > growth in the last two decades that they had in the previous two decades. > The average Mexican would have nearly twice as much income today, and the > average Brazilian much more than twice as much, if not for the slowdown of > economic growth over the last two decades." > > A follow-up CEPR study used a similar methodology to look at social > indicators. CEPR found that progress in reducing infant mortality, > reducing child mortality, increasing literacy and increasing access to > education has all slowed during the period of corporate globalization, > especially in developing countries. > > The CEPR global comparisons across time show the bottomline, combined > effect of the specific policy components of corporate-friendly policies > imposed by the IMF and World Bank and enforced by free trade agreements. > These include the following: > > * Trade Liberalization -- The elimination of tariff protections for > agriculture and industries in developing countries often leads to mass > layoffs and displacement of the rural poor. In Mexico, for example, > opening to U.S. agriculture imports has forced millions of poor farmers, > who find themselves unable to compete with Cargill and Archer Daniels > Midland, off the land. > > * Privatization -- IMF and World Bank structural adjustment policies > typically call for the sell off of government-owned enterprises to private > owners, often foreign investors. Privatization is regularly associated > with layoffs and pay cuts for workers in the privatized enterprises. > > * Cuts in government spending -- Reductions in government spending > frequently reduce the ability of the government to provide services to the > poor, exacerbating the social pain from rural displacement and industrial > layoffs. > > * Imposition of user fees -- Many IMF and World Bank loans and programs > call for the imposition of "user fees" -- charges for the use of > government-provided services like schools, health clinics and clean > drinking water. For very poor people, even modest charges may result in > the denial of access to services. > > * Export promotion -- Under structural adjustment programs, > countries undertake a variety of measures to promote exports, at the > expense of production for domestic needs. In the rural sector, the export > orientation is often associated with the displacement of poor people who > grow food for their own consumption, as their land is taken over by large > plantations growing crops for foreign markets. > > * Higher interest rates -- Attractive to foreign investors, higher > interest rates exert a recessionary effect on national economies, leading > to higher rates of joblessness. Small businesses, often operated by women, > find it more difficult to gain access to affordable credit, and often are > unable to survive. > > Advancing the interests of the poor has nothing to do with the corporate > globalization agenda. This agenda is driven first by profit-seeking, and > second by ideology. > > But the corporate globalizers are nothing if not ambitious. They are > seeking now to push fast-track negotiating authority through the U.S. > Congress, to force all of Latin America into a NAFTA-style trade and > investment agreement, launch a new World Trade Organization negotiating > round, and intensify the IMF and World Bank's ability to impose structural > adjustment through a sham debt relief process. > > To lessen preventable human suffering, it is imperative that the > protesters continue to build the movement against corporate globalization, > with everything from street protests to citizen lobbying of Congress. > > Another world is indeed possible, as the protesters are asserting. But for > now the immediate challenge is to stop the corporate globalizers from > making the existing one worse. > > > Russell Mokhiber is editor of the Washington, D.C.-based Corporate Crime > Reporter. Robert Weissman is editor of the Washington, D.C.-based > Multinational Monitor. They are co-authors of Corporate Predators: The > Hunt for MegaProfits and the Attack on Democracy (Monroe, Maine: Common > Courage Press, 1999). > > (c) Russell Mokhiber and Robert Weissman > > _______________________________________________ > > Focus on the Corporation is a weekly column written by Russell Mokhiber > and Robert Weissman. Please feel free to forward the column to friends or > repost the column on other lists. If you would like to post the column on > a web site or publish it in print format, we ask that you first contact us > (russell@essential.org or rob@essential.org). ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 20:21:56 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: plath/suicide MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Elizabeth. I'm a bit obsesed with this topic....for the moment...but I think is important hence what might appear to be my "bullying" approach but I just feel strongly. I know it cant help Sylvia now.Of course we need also to all look again at her poems which are mostly excellent ..."great" was a problematic term I chose for want of a term at the time... Also I began with a discussion of the Cofessionals etc. I made the point to someone else that when I came across Plath's "Aerial" I'd never heard of Plath. I thought from the text that she may have committed suicide. I wrote a poem at the time "about" how I became obsessed trying to find that she had committed suicide. Part of me feels and understands: the other part wants to rail against her ragingly. Regards, Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson" To: Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 6:45 AM Subject: Re: plath/suicide > Thank you Cassie and Lisa! Good grief, would we so easily lay blame at the > feet of a mother who died when her children were young because of oh, > disease, accident, etc? Suicide is a sign of debilitating illness or > suffering, guys. > It does strike me that this harsh view of Ms. Plath is rather sexist and > otherwise inhumane. > Elizabeth > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 15:03:13 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: plath/suicide MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Poetics Group. Criticism of someone or something wont go away because you label it "sexit" ar "racist"..the question is is it true or relevant. I would have the same citicism of a man.People have to face their resposibilitties to temselves and others. This is a weak escape route to label discussion "sexist". But my previous comments remain. I think the issue IS important. Richard Taylor. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson" To: Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 6:45 AM Subject: Re: plath/suicide > Thank you Cassie and Lisa! Good grief, would we so easily lay blame at the > feet of a mother who died when her children were young because of oh, > disease, accident, etc? Suicide is a sign of debilitating illness or > suffering, guys. > It does strike me that this harsh view of Ms. Plath is rather sexist and > otherwise inhumane. > Elizabeth > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 22:55:20 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: thought I'd add MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And you Elizabeth. You are a good writer? I know its hard to say that: not from immodesty per se: but how do we sound or read to others? And its hard to evaluate oneself. I've stopped worrying: even almost lost interest. I think that I wil leave some work for a few friends but "fame" and all that are meaningless to me. I just want to live. I write poems but find it hard to motivate to publish them or even put them onto the computer. I admire Alan Sondhein his ability and energy.Or that he even cares about things. I'm not sure if I do: maybe I'm tired....Maybe this IS a kind of poem... Increasingly I see things I have written and only rarely do I care about them. I'm not even sure of why I'm on the List. I have stopped reading poetry mags and subscribing to anything and am reading a bio of Swinburne and relevant poems etc and enjoying that.....but I can never imagine being (now days) interested very much whether people or critics or anyone reads or likes what I have written. I'm just as pround or indifferent to some paintings I did when I was about 10. I have thm on the wall. I like them. Pictures (watercolour) full of light and greens and blues and mountains and colour. They are there, in my room, by the bed. Most people who enter the room never say anything about them. Very few people enter that room. No women do: or very very few. They are there though. They are there. They are there and maybe this apathy will pass or I'll give up my poetry hobby and do something else. Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elizabeth Treadwell" To: Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 9:10 AM Subject: thought I'd add > Thought I'd add, so she's not embarassed, that I am not alone in thinking > CAROL TREADWELL is a fantastic writer -- her work's appeared in the > anthologies Snowflake (Smart Art Press), Unnatural Disasters: Recent > Writings from the Golden State (Incommunicado Press), Blind Date (Cal-Arts), > I'm Still in Love with You, Song Poems, as well as Errant Bodies and other > magazines. She might be embarassed that I've added this thus, but don't > blame her for an overeager elder sis, just go check out her reading, if > you're in LA. At the Hammer August 9 (http://www.hammer.ucla.edu) xx, Eliz > ___________________________________________ > > Double Lucy Books & Outlet Magazine > http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy > ___________________________________________ > > Elizabeth Treadwell > http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy/page2.html > ___________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 10:12:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: of the book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 0 of the book i cannot write the book i desire; i think constantly - this text is an introduction. there is nothing beyond the introduction. the introduction is fecund, replete, with the details of the world between heat birth and cold death; the introduction inhales universal annihilation. there is no proper way to express this. the books i would write break down upon their enunciation. the announcement of the book is the book; the announcement effaces itself in the exhaustion of continuous production. i hold therapeutically, psychoanalytically, to this production; it becomes a life-form, prehensile; it reaches towards the book; its tentacles begin to wrap themselves around each and every trope; metaphors becomes obstacles and worlds; the production exhales in its own denouement. only in fear do i look forward to this production which spells my failure,this inability to continue, this waywardness, contrariness. it reaches through me, comes through me; how could i not believe in ghosts, avatars, cyborgs, prostheses, emananations? i write as if their very existence depended on it. repeatedly: i write myself into existence; i write myself out of it. but the existence is tinged with labor throughout - it is the laboring of an existence fragile and wavering literally beyond belief. if i could only make a statement and hold to it; if i could only connect a series of statements, almost as if they were axioms "as if to say." it is my strength and weakness that such connections are governed by laughter, and the statements themselves, by misery. i am one of the few who constantly see through myself. i know about failure from within, the rapidity of existence, the inability to seize time for an instant. the darkness is overwhelming: it is the darkness of the first and last, and only in the midst of chaotic neutrality is the semblance of being manifest. holding to the book: holding memory in place throughout the vicissitudes of life. a continuous series of failed projects tends asymptotically towards truths that otherwise remain submerged; as it is, they are external to symbolic foreclosure, forms of meanderings more at one with dark matter than luminous and momentary gravity. i could never tell you where the statement might be; what might be the equivalence of the book; what might be its destination or distribution; who might read what could be interpreted as a tropology of illness. i could never tell you the statement, or "make it" in any sense, nor is there a concept which holds fast, the "one good idea" that each of us is supposedly destined to express. it is the "nor" that grips me, the "neither this nor that," the "not both this and that," the dissuasions of propositional logics and their fundamental modes - the superimpositions of gestural logics and their organic gestures towards the frisson and trembling of being in relation. if only i could write of the rush of letters, the stream of meanings, shape-riding semantics in the depths of the night! if only utterance were at home within me, if there were set themes ready to be expressed, clouds and darkened flows "just" about to turn or return to the symbolic. instead the dance is always around - and it is a dance - a fire elsewhere,beings i could almost see in the dim light, theoretical constructs about to emerge out of a communality i witness, but never partake in. even the play of the world escapes me; i search for books within it; i search for the finality of the word, deconstructing at a rush, fevered with disbelief, exhausted with being. what is "out there" is never a "what," never "out there"; what is out there is insufficient. biography, autobiography, flattens and disenchant, transforming theory and abstraction to the incidental. scaffolding becomes anecdote and complexity is reduced to the despair of a sleepless night. the book that calls me forth is otherwise, effacing in the midst of the call, denying in its insistency. it asserts the "it" "itself," creating presence in absence, ontology in the midst of chaos. it is the engine or process born of desire; it has no otherwise existence. i fight constantly to ensure that its contents and index reflect something beyond that, that desire does not become circumstance, that circumstance does not turn thought of the world into diary. no life is "worth living" and not in the book which calls me. the book is an addiction. the book is an inescapable addiction, raging, regulated, in the absence of drugs, called forth in clarity, self-inscribing. not worth living, but a medium of the world, circumstantial mediation or re/mediation in denial. this denial, rhetoric, flight, are characteristic of that philosophy of dedication inhabiting me like an illness; they are symptoms of the book; they fumble within me; they lock themselves within me; they hold my mind in its insufficiency. they are my promise of redemption. i deconstruct the possessive, calling on methodologies i recognize as already used, carrying their own stain, their own historic shame. thinking must always cast aside the stigma; thinking must never replace it with the taint of purity. this is what i have been promised, speaking to others through myself: these are the words of the book. never written, this too a cauterization of a wound refusing to heal. i cannot write the book "i desire" - that is my failure, not that of the book. even the sentence is a sentencing; what is left to say falls to pieces. indeed, there is nothing beyond the introductions. like any other illness, a compulsion to write, to rectify, to bring down the house, to absolve rectification, to slant. to comprehend illness as a symptom, the momentary apparition of being. "i desire," "my desire." the writing of submergence. the writing of the remnant, remains. the writing of being-submerged, submerged writing. the book, my book, the book. === ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 11:25:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Help Jerry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi Everyone, A very old friend of mine, Jerry J. Davis, who is kind of a Philip K. Dick-style sci-fi writer, whose novels are hilarious, paranoid & brutally satirical, needs our help! A book I remember him writing when we both lived in Stockton, California, was picked up by a publishing house ... but for e-publication only. The publisher now has pitched Jerry's book against two other novels ... and is asking people to vote for their favorite. Clearly, this is a popularity contest, which Jerry -- who is not without friends, but is hardly a social butterfly -- is destined to lose. (He's currently running third of three.) That is, without our help. Please help Jerry win! Go to this site: http://newauthors.ipublish.com/index.asp and read his & the other two excerpts ... and vote for your favorite. I'm not asking you to cheat. Oh, god no. No. I'm just "certain" that you'll like Jerry's book best! Hurry! Thanks! Gary _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 08:58:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Strang Subject: Re: band name advice In-Reply-To: <200108070409.f7749aX14800@cluster1.sfsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" "DIY," punk mantra and ethic of times past, used to mean "Do it yourself" (as in naming your own band). Look to what is important to you and find your name there. Gabba gabba hey! B. -- -------------->*<-------------- "We are all trying, with different methods, Brian Strang styles, perhaps even prejudices, to get at Departments of English and ISBA the core of the linguistic pact...which San Francisco State University unites the writer and the other, so that... (415) 338-3098 each moment of discourse is both absolutely bstrang@sfsu.edu new and absolutely understood." -------------->*<-------------- --Roland Barthes ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 23:04:47 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Selim Abdul Sadiq Subject: Re: Istanbul Query Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed David, What do you like to do, and what kind of hotel would be acceptable to your tastes anbd standards of cleanliness? A two-star hotel in Istanbul is a lot different than a two-star hotel in Paterson, New Jersey; a lot cheaper, but a lot dirtier. In response to what you might do, why not visit the many on-going open-air bazaars in town - the best "view" of the city there is, internal as well as external. And keep in mind that as you get further from those bazaars most frequented by your more standard trembling Western visitor, the more interesting and perhaps unusual will be those "objets d'art" offered you "for your pleasure, mister." Have a good trip. Best wishes, Selim Abdul Sadiq >From: "David L. Erben" >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Istanbul Query >Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 16:18:39 -0400 > >I am wondering if there is anyone on the list familiar with Istanbul who >might recommend a hotel and activities other than the usual sight seeing. > >Thank you _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 16:58:43 -0700 Reply-To: yan@pobox.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: matvei yankelevich Subject: pencil it in (poetry) Comments: To: ugly.duckling@pobox.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii dear people of poetry please come support and enjoy a fledgeling spot for writing in performance, it is rough-hewn for sure. this wednesday night series at siberia is primarily dedicated to literary events and intertwining such with other performing/visual arts. I would really like you to see this poetry grotto, thus *lustrum poetae*, this basement where, seemingly, anything can happen. I hope to conduct the poetry events in a salonish format, so that questions may be asked, dialogues may be engaged, please help make it interesting by your presence. Plus, this bar is truly good drinking for poets/writers of all kinds. Spread the word if you like. thanks, Matvei (of Ugly Duckling Presse/6x6) &--------& (ps - a printable doc is attached) a short list for AUGUST at SIBERIA... wed. AUGUST 8: Aaron Belz*, Mark Mcmanus*, & Valerio Lucareni (Lucretius Recitation) wed. AUGUST 15: Brady Brock & music surprises wed. AUGUST 22: Brandon Downing*, Eugene Ostashevsky*, songs & slides by Simone White* wed. AUGUST 29: Two-Book Release Party: Loudmouth Collective new books by M. Yankelevich, C. Foltz w. SEPTEMBER 5: Dresden Dolls (Amanda Palmer's band from Boston) (all events on Wednesdays at 8pm, basement bar opens 7:30) <*see below for profiles> *AT SIBERIA* it's hard to find: look for black doors at 356 W 40th St. It's close to the corner of 9th Ave. On south side of street, across from the southern wall of the Port Auth Bus Terminal. The doors aren't really marked, but there should be a poster for our CELLAR SERIES. Open the left-most door. Go to the downstairs bar. ------------------------- … nice! … decadent! … underground! … THE CELLAR SERIES @ S I B E R I A * Rock'n'Roll Poetics * F R E E F R E E F R E E E V E R Y W E D N E S D A Y N I G H T *Presented by* Ugly Duckling Presse & Loudmouth Collective ringleaders: James Hoff & Matvei Yankelevich Bartemptress: Ellie Ga!! www.UglyDucklingPresse.org coming up in september: 6x6 #4 unveiling party Igor Satanovsky & KOJA Magazine Dresden Dolls Day Blind Stars http://www.siberiabar.com/ ABOUT THIS MONTHS POETS & PERFORMERS... &------& MARK McMANUS has recently moved back to New York, from where? He's had some poems published in McSweeneys.net (new!), Arshile and an experimental music magazine named Music. Also works as a musician: had a very obscure recording under a stage name Mark Never, and just finished another one named The Donkey Silent. &------& AARON BELZ is a writer and teacher in St. Louis, MO. He's a graduate of the NYU workshop (1995). He has published poetry in Gulf Coast, Mudfish, Exquisite Corpse, Jacket, -VeRT, RealPoetik, canwehaveourballback.com, elimae, etc, & forthcoming in Fence, Fine Madness, and Pierogi Press. Maybe soon some lucky publisher will choose Belz's manuscript, _Nineteen Harps_, out of the pile. &------& EUGENE OSTASHEVSKY just moved back to New York from San Francisco via Ankara, Turkey. While in San Francisco, he co-founded (with Brandon Downing) the writers’ collective 9X9 Industries. He also organized large-scale interdisciplinary art events as member of the performance trio Vainglorious. His poems have appeared in 6,500, Combo, Lungfull!, Oxygen, Log, 6x6 and other magazines, as well as in a series of chapbooks published by Eugene Timerman. His translations from Russian are published widely because they are awesome. &------& BRANDON DOWNING is recent. In San Francisco he was the co-founder of Blue Boooks, and curated the Books Readings #1 Series for 2 years. Founding editor and serious spirit of the magazine 6,500. Co-founder, with Eugene Ostashevsky, of the 9x9 Industries Performance Initiative, and co-curator of the 9x9 Readings at Adobe Books. Recent poems have figured in THE HAT, MUNGO VS. RANGER, THE GERM, LUNGFULL!, and CONDUIT , with more upcoming in 6x6 Magazine . His recent books include LAZIO and DOG & HORSEY PICTURES (both 2000). His first collection, THE SHIRT WEAPON, will be published in September by the Poetic Research Bureau . He used to live there but now he lives here. Good for us. &------& SIMONE WHITE will sing her own songs to her own accompaniment. Simone does this with a voice unquantifiable, a modest demeanor, and the lyrics of a thinking poet. Take my word for it, you'll thank your fates for having heard her. She will also show her excellent LOMO slides. Recently repatriated from London, Simone is acting in the title role of BILLY THE KID at The Flea Theater. &------& THE CELLAR SERIES is an informal weekly salon for music, poetry, film, drunken intellectualizing, etc. at the verymost rock&roll bar in NYC. Produced by Ugly Duckling Press and Loudmouth Collective. To get involved, play, read, perform, communicate email ellie_ga@yahoo.com or ugly.duckling@pobox.com -thanks. -m. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 06:27:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: gcandler Subject: Re: Corporate Globalization and the Poor (off topic) Comments: To: JBCM2@aol.com Comments: cc: BRITISH-POETS@jiscmail.ac.uk, working-class-list@listserv.liunet.edu, BBlum6@aol.com, flpoint@hotmail.com, ibid1@earthlink.net, moyercdmm@earthlink.net, CMJBalso@aol.com, alphavil@ix.netcom.com, harrysandy@kreative.net, derekvdt@academypo.fss.fss.pvt.k12.pa.us, Amzemel@aol.com, kjohnson@highland.cc.il.us In-Reply-To: <49.f0a9e82.28a0461a@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > * Trade Liberalization -- The elimination of tariff protections for > agriculture and industries in developing countries often leads to mass > layoffs and displacement of the rural poor. In Mexico, for example, > opening to U.S. agriculture imports has forced millions of poor farmers, > who find themselves unable to compete with Cargill and Archer Daniels Midland, off the land. Often as not tariffs in developing countries are used by narrow, privileged elites to prevent their compatriots from exercising free choice and purchase a better product from elsewhere. In effect, through tariffs the rich tax the poor. Worse, the real issue here concersn tariffs in rich countries that deny me the right to choose to support poor world farmers by purchasing their products. Developing countries have been screaming for 'trade, not aid' for as long as I have been politically aware. > * Privatization -- IMF and World Bank structural adjustment policies > typically call for the sell off of government-owned enterprises to private > owners, often foreign investors. Privatization is regularly associated with layoffs and pay cuts for workers in the privatized enterprises. As with trade tariffs, inefficient state-owned enterprises (SOEs) represent a tax on the poor, who are forced to purchase their inferior goods at a higher price, while also often supporting these organizations with tax dollars that should be going to the poor. Jobs in SOEs are also often resevered as spoils in clientelistic networks. So again, those being layed off are often a privileged, parasitical elite. > * Cuts in government spending -- Reductions in government spending > frequently reduce the ability of the government to provide services to the > poor, exacerbating the social pain from rural displacement and industrial layoffs. Government in many developing countries has provided no services to the poor as it is. In the 1991 census (I think it was) in Brazil, 44% of male heads of household in the state of Sergipe had zero years of formal education. Zero. This is male household heads in a patriarchical society, so the figures for women would be even worse. At the same time, university students regularly go on strike if their bolsas (scholarships) are threatened. Brazil's university system is merit-based, the brightest get in, which is another way of saying that white middle class kids dominate. How likely do you think it is that the child of an illiterate sertanejo would beat the privileged middle class kid in a free competition for these places? So if government spending is cut, who do you think is hurt? The poor? They weren't getting anything in the first place, indeed whatever taxes they pay go to support the free university education of the rich, these often the children of employees of SOEs themselves coddled with the tax dollars of the poor. > * Imposition of user fees -- Many IMF and World Bank loans and programs > call for the imposition of "user fees" -- charges for the use of > government-provided services like schools, health clinics and clean > drinking water. For very poor people, even modest charges may result in the denial of access to services. This can happen, yet again, often as not the poor aren't getting a hell of a lot out of government, anyway. So these user fees hit the rich and middle classes as much, if not more than, the poor. > But the corporate globalizers are nothing if not ambitious. They are > seeking now to push fast-track negotiating authority through the U.S. > Congress, to force all of Latin America into a NAFTA-style trade and investment agreement, This is nave in the extreme. The myth of US hegemony in international fora should be clear to anyone with an open mind, given the way that the current US administration has walked out of so many of these in the past few months. Far from a superpower hegemon, the US is virtually an international pariah. > intensify the IMF and World Bank's ability to impose structural > adjustment through a sham debt relief process. Structural adjustment has never been imposed on another country. These have always been able to refuse the loans that are the carrot for the structural adjustment agreements. > To lessen preventable human suffering, it is imperative that the > protesters continue to build the movement against corporate globalization, with everything from street protests to citizen lobbying of Congress. To lessen preventable human suffering, it is imperative that the global community continue to remain vigilant against the arrogant classist, racist movement of white middle class rich world activists who seek to deny non-white poor countries the right to assemble in international fora and indicate their own preferences in international policy arenas. Cheers, George ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 17:52:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: plath/suicide In-Reply-To: <003901c11f1a$05f900a0$f0b61bca@01397384> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >>>Plath's "Aerial" (obnoxious spelling nitpick) Separated at birth: Sylvia Plath's book and Rod Smith's magazine? Best, Gwyn ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 17:10:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath and Who's Great In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT George Bowering Writes: I reply: Still though, I'd say that "greatness", even after a person's been long dead is still very much a matter of opinion. And the opinions are grounded very much in the present of the ones with the winning opinion. (And that's only my opinion, btw.) Ahem, JG ------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 23:21:32 +0100 Reply-To: Robin Hamilton Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath and Who's Great MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "patrick herron" > I'll TRIPLE DARE ANYONE TO NAME SOMEONE WHO'S UNDER 50 YEARS OLD AND STILL > ALIVE!!! DOUBLE DARE, STILL ALIVE, TRIPLE DARE, UNDER 50 AND STILL ALIVE. > SINGLE DARE, SOMEONE WHO'S DEAD BUT WOULD BE UNDER 50 IF ALIVE TODAY > (there's safety in death). TRIPLE DARE, and you get free poetry mailed to > you by me (no I don't mean to DIScourage you). > > Patrick David Black. (D.M.Black?) Scottish poet [Edinburgh], maybe just the wrong side of fifty but not by much. Never quite made it, but writes like an angel. No rep in The Nation (or even in Britland). One of The Lost. And still writing ... Robin Hamilton ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 18:34:05 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: RaeA100900@AOL.COM Subject: contact request MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I hope someone can backchannel me email addresses for Sianne Ngai and Thalia Field. Thanks in advance. Rae Armantrout ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 19:28:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: edit, editors, editing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed This responds to the conversation about editing: I cannot name a publication that is slapped together thoughtlessly and haphazardly. Like them, like their choices or not, someone is making the calls, putting this poet next to that, etc. A good friend of mine recently told me I wasn't a real editor. This hurt me quite a bit, but to a certain degree I agree. I cast a large field, I send no rejections. In the same issue you'll find poems by Amiri Baraka and Rod McKuen, for example. Bernstein and Bukowski in another. In the first issue, Pinsky and Stroffolino. This is not done thoughtlessly or haphazardly. THE NEW YORKER, POETRY, THE ATLANTIC MONTHLY: these magazines all have aesthetics, narrow editorial policies. Should they be emulated by young editors? I guess I could start something--"The Cool School"--and a magazine--COOL-- and include every poet I slept with and who wrote, thought and dressed like me (it would be a really tiny magazine). That would have a strong aesthetic and a firm editorial hand. But why should a reader care about COOL? Because it makes an editorial statement? What I react strongest to is Mr. Bolton's statements, and Mr. Silliman's. We young editors don't "get it." We don't know what the hell we're doing. We're lazy and we don't know good work. Well, that's the tone. I say we are fortunately bejeweled with enough smart, fantastic magazines to satisfy any poetic taste, and to reflect the exciting work being produced as we all, for whatever reason, are instead reading (or writing) this. The definition of an editor is, simply, someone who is in charge of a magazine. I tip my hat to the whole breed--it is thankless, frustrating, exhilerating and rewarding work. So somebody comes to my magazine. They scratch their heads, "What the hell is this poet doing here?" Maybe they click on, maybe they encounter the work, maybe they love or hate it, say to themselves, "This guy's not so bad," or "Wow, she sucks." Or they skip by, they click on a friend, or a poet they've heard of but haven't read. I've given the reader choices. I've done my job, I'm a real editor. Call it a "gathering." Call it "eclecticism." Bishop wrote, "Somebody loves us all." I have once again earned my zero dollar paycheck. --Jim Behrle PS: Submissions to COOL or applicants to "The Cool School" please backchannel. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 20:31:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Emergency MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Emergency This just came over the email list for our block (two houses a few down from us - not ours) - Alan (for real) ================================== PLease come home now. The Fire dept. had to crash in to your home, but I don't think the fire has spread. We will all keep an eye out until you get home. ================================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 12:46:56 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George. I take your point: nihilism has its advocates and anti-advocates. In my more lucid moments I'd come down on the side of life. And one could build a University Course around who owns whose life. In certain situations a suicide is possibly a dignified exit. But as you say some philosophies hold all life sacrosanct which is not a bad philosophy: but I'm still gunna squash a bug if it's a pest. But I think the implication of Cassie's letter - maybe not what she said - was "lets lighten up" (if we can on such a subject): the point now would be to look at how to prevent or lessen the numbers of suicides in the future and I suppose where in for a long haul as the Israelis and the Palestinians are hammer and tongs slaughtering each other: and more than something is rotten in the state. Many great "advances" but the basic situation seems no better overall. Maybe, slowly, we'll get there. I think that we are social animals and that in most cases we are, though ultimately self responsible, we have strong links to others and those links are essential to our survival. So, in general, nihilism leads nowhere. So our best approach as writers would be to encorage self-responsibility and put out as many positive messages about life: which is overall marvellous, given the darknesses, and, if possible "tough out" or overcomne any negative thinking. Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Bowering" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 10:35 AM Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath > >Come on George she was saying that we are all fundanmenally the same. We are > >all human and have very nuch the same basic emotions needs etc see "The > >Merchant of Venice" Literature does have some practical uses its not all > >abstract French theory. Richard Taylor. > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "George Bowering" > >To: > >Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 9:45 AM > >Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath > > That's not what she said. She said that the undividual owns her life > and has the moral right to do with it what she wants to do. That is > not a given, Very important philosophers and belief systems thru the > centuries have had opinions, very serious opinions counter to that > simple nihilist notion, > > > > >> >I don't think it's fair or relevant to judge someone as a poor parent > >> >because they took their own life. Plath's life was her own, to use as she > >> >wished, > >> > >> You seem to think that that assertion does not require supportive > >argument. > >> > >> >I'd suggest she was a person, just like us, > >> > >> I have read her poems, and have looked a little at the stuff about > >> her life, and I do not think that she is just like me. > > > > > > > > > > > > >Cassie > > > > > > > GB > > > -- > > > George Bowering > > > Fax 604-266-9000 > > -- > George Bowering > Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 23:42:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: new address MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi - in Miami, my address at the university will be: Alan Sondheim c/o Florida International University Visual Arts Department DM 382 11200 SW Eighth Street Miami, Florida, 33199 We'll be there in about ten days or so. If you need to reach us by cell phone, the number is 347-623-4568. Chances are you'll get voicemail because we won't be keeping the phone on (it's for emergencies etc.) - It may take time to get back to you - Alan - ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 01:57:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: titanium neon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - titanium neon because it is inert, because it refuses writing; because it constitutes a sheen difficult or impossible to inscribe; because it draws forth the desire of memory to hold fast; because it is drawn forth of memory held fast; precisely because of its weight and vacuity, it remains impossible in its relation to organism, and it is this impossibility that seduces. whatever is uttered is already in relation to density and absence; the stranger is ignored in the city; archaic graphemes remain indecipherable until the passing of certain thresholds. "it" helps through my helplessness, this naming of two elements. _ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 08:10:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michael g salinger Subject: prague In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I will be in Prague from sept 13 thru the 23 - any hints, contacts, pointers? thanks, michael salinger ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 08:13:21 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: komninos zervos Subject: Re: plath/greatness In-Reply-To: <003901c11f1a$05f900a0$f0b61bca@01397384> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" i heard a reading of 'daddy' on an lp of poetry and knew that poem was great when i heard it. i still have a copy of it and play it occassionally, it created a poetic moment for me the first time i heard it and continues to do so. the poem was powerful and not autobiographical for me - i didn't know anything about plath at the time. the poem, for me, spoke of patriarchy(in its extreme form - fascism) not specifically _her_ father or _her_ husband or _her_ teachers i later found out about sylvia plath and her history and mystery which was of interest but added nothing to the poem. in my canon, and we all have one, this poem is high in the list. hope this is helpful komninos ps. all the rest is politics, hype and conjecture and part of a continuing dialogue which constructs the greatness of the author. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 12:25:42 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: plath/suicide MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill. I agree re going to Doctors etc. This one is a hard one, and interesting: I dont want to be ghoulish. Unfortuantely New Zealand has the highest per capita suicude youth (and maybe generally) rate in the world (as far as recording methods etc are accurate given that some countries distort by ommission or commission these figures). Apparently that figure is dropping. I actually came into this on the whole question of the personality/mask/subjective/objective angle and somehow I "crossed" it with the discussion of Hannah Einer). I'm a bit dulled by the fact that Barret Watten weighs in with portentious "profects" for us or "discussion points" then doesnt even reply to my post on Hannah Weiner where I actually took the trouble to have a look at her poetry and put it on the net. No one commented which makes me wonder if Patrick isnt right: people like to be either "attacking" or slinging off, but are frightened to say what they really think (this applies to everyone I suppose so i'm not angry or anything) so I suppose that's how things are (after all I dont get to see all my own email).....but that drips at tap ends was from the old joke:"What's an expert" the answer is something like:"X is the unknown factor, and the spurt is what comes out of a tap" That sort of thing. So I turned it to "drips at tap ends"! Hope all's well with you Bill. My family are doing well despite me. My daughters are in Australia: which by the way is NOT joined to New Zealand - yet! My son is ok all things considered and I'm still short fat balding & poor but quite happy.As I'm relatively penurious women stay away from me in droves: my little joke. Probably also because I'm a grumpy little bastard as well! Busy collating rare and second hand books: some valuable, many not. I sell them on eBay or through ABE.com who by the way are very good (via eg ADD ALL) for tracing books. That is time consuming but I'm also addicted to Chess and play on ICC (Internet Chess Club) where I "take no prisoners" !! Cheers, Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 10:44 AM Subject: Re: plath/suicide > In a message dated 8/6/01 5:26:34 PM, richard.tylr@XTRA.CO.NZ writes: > > << Bill. Good response but: who are the "experts": unkown variables gone to > > drips at tap ends? I think we all are: you me, everyone. We have life and > > death choices constantly. hand that can "murder or create". It is an animal > > / humanimal thing. Regards, Richard. >> > > Nice reference to tsetse, Richard. But I'm assuming that since they spend > all those years specializing in such matters, psychiatrists know more about > depression, suicide, etc. than do most poets, literary critics and List > posters, including myself. Maybe I'm nuts but when I get a pain I still see > an MD for his expertise. The MD may not always be right, but s/he has a > better chance of knowing what went on, goes on, and will go on than I do. > That's all I meant. Certainly didn't mean to suggest that posters shouldn't > speculate, especially since my next sentence does just that. Suicide may > indeed be a psychotic episode since it violates the hard wired instinct to > survive. If that's the case, then even the question of rational choice is > called into question. As for the moral dimension, in my view suicide is an > ammoral act--so I wasn't really considering that at all. But again, I'm no > expert so what do I know? > > Good to hear from you, Richard! Hope your life sings. How's the family? > Best, Bill > > WilliamJamesAustin.com > KojaPress.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 10:40:41 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alicia Askenase Subject: 100 Day Anthology Reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This fall I would like to host a reading of authors published in the recent 100 Day Anthology at the Walt Whitman Art Center in Camden, NJ. Possible dates are either Oct 19 or 26. I am interested in feedback from the writers regarding your availability and interest in participating in the event. Andrea Brady has expresssed her support and excitement, so let's keep challenging complacency.... Please backchannel and let me know what you think. Alicia Alicia Askenase WWArt Center ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 11:32:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Broder, Michael" Subject: Ear Inn Readings--August 2001 UPDATE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The Ear Inn Readings Saturdays at 3:00 326 Spring Street, west of Greenwich New York City FREE August 11 Catherine Esposito, other features to be announced, plus open FOR THIS WEEK'S OPEN YOU WILL BE ABLE TO READ TWO POEMS OF ONE PAGE OR ONE POEM OF UP TO TWO PAGES IN LENGTH. PLEASE FIND MICHAEL BRODER AT THE EAR INN AT 2:45 TO SIGN UP FOR THE OPEN MIKE. August 18 Catherine Daly, Rachel Levitsky plus open August 25 Denise LaCongo, Corie Herman plus open The Ear Inn Readings Michael Broder and Jason Schneiderman, Directors Martha Rhodes, Executive Director The Ear Inn is one block north of Canal Street, a couple blocks west of Hudson. The closest trains are the 1-9 to Canal Street @ Varick, the A to Canal Street @ Sixth Ave, or the C-E to Spring Street@ Sixth Ave. For additional information, contact Michael Broder at (212) 246-5074. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 12:01:27 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath and Who's Great MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/8/01 9:41:20 AM, Gallaher@MAIL.UCA.EDU writes: << I reply: Still though, I'd say that "greatness", even after a person's been long dead is still very much a matter of opinion. And the opinions are grounded very much in the present of the ones with the winning opinion. (And that's only my opinion, btw.) Ahem, JG >> Maybe. I wonder, though, if after enough time has passed, opinion still matters. Doesn't it become a matter of general acceptance at some point? Shakespeare's international reputation, for example, seems set in stone. It might be the case that once opinion has carried an author far enough, s/he eventually transcends opinion and becomes a necessary cog in the culture, an intrinsic part of a culture's definition. When that happens, it's probably fair to call an author great. No? Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 12:19:39 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: edit, editors, editing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/8/01 9:42:56 AM, tinaiskingofmonsterisland@HOTMAIL.COM writes: << What I react strongest to is Mr. Bolton's statements, and Mr. Silliman's. We young editors don't "get it." We don't know what the hell we're doing. We're lazy and we don't know good work. >> To be fair to Ron Silliman, I supect that behind his statement lies a keen understanding of the marketplace. There is so much poetry out there of all kinds, that in order to rise to the surface one must be consistent and perhaps controversial. A mag that gathers may simply be recording the zeitgeist. One with a strong editorial point of view--even better, a point of view that offends or befuddles lots of people--has a better shot of "gathering" attention (e.g., L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E). A convincing argument can be made, I think, that these days strategy is far more important than good art. Anyway, if a particular formulation focuses attention, a general view that the art is good, or important, or significant, or something along those lines, will inevitably follow. Of course, however a mag wants to operate depends on the ambitions of its editors--to present what they consider quality art (whatever form it takes), or to crack the marketplace. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 11:35:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: editing &tc Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I've been having trouble donating to this discussion -- I think my email's on the fritz or something. I'd like to share a few thoughts as per Elizabeth Treadwell's open suggestion that editors on the list simply speak up. First) The thread began with someone asking about "language writing" and citing "Buffalo student magazines" as familiar proponents of such things. I made a failed attempt to go on the record at that time as noticing how disingenuous the notion of "language writing" is itself, something I set out to demonstrate early on in editing and publishing Kenning. Secondly, as for Kenning, I brought the project to Buffalo and consider it and many other similar projects in Buffalo by or seemingly by students in "the program" diverse and particular enough to earn something more than the arbitrary appellation, "Buffalo student magazine." Never mind the conveniences of the EPC and / or literary historians. Who else could claim "writing" to be "asyntactical"?! Second) "Just gathering" is, in many contexts, an argument for something other than liberal plurality. This was part of what I hoped to demonstrate with Kenning and the early editor's notes bear this out in their own tortured ways. Obviously, in my own context, the recontextualization of so-called "language writing" became one key component of this. But, in calling Kenning a "newsletter" -- and by other turns -- I explicitly gather work into a context which imagines public(ation) space ripe for "progressive social discourse". Demos or no-doze, there you have it. Williams may not get the news from poems, but men die anyway, as some Rod Smith once said. Third) Kenning was chosen as a title so as to establish a goal that could be sought after in a variety of ways, hence the variety of TYPES of publications under that rubric. To make good on "kenning" in the double sense of fusion and difference. In other words, by "gathering" new writing AS progressive social discourse, the fusion accentuates the differences which return to (I'd hope) the poetic imagination. Hence I've always hoped that Kenning would appeal to writers first and last, though the amount of unsolicited submissions (always welcomed) from folks who admittedly have never purchased or read an issue (never welcomed) suggests that hope is more often than not destined to be dashed. Fourth) I'd even suggest there is an ethics to "gathering" that would mean we can save the phrase "just gathering," and I'd love to hear from The Germ people about this. Anyhow, looking at Kenning's first 6 issues [which it would, in too many ways, be irrelevant to reprint] would clear these points up as much as complicate their precepts. As someone once said, "Sorting just happens, don't dignify it" -- "bouncing an idea out into the open through publishing" will always happen, only more or less explicitly. Patrick KENNING | a newsletter of contemporary poetry poetics & nonfiction writing | KENNING | a newsletter of contemporary poetry poetics & nonfiction writing | _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 12:56:14 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: RaeA100900@AOL.COM Subject: Re: prague MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Speaking of Prague, I will also be in Prague (on December 19-29.) Does anyone have tips or contact suggestions? Rae Armantrout ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 11:16:08 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: edit, editors, editing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Jim Behrle wrote, among other things: >I cannot name a publication that is >slapped together thoughtlessly and >haphazardly. Like them, like their >choices or not, someone is making the >calls, putting this poet next to that, >etc. ... >THE NEW YORKER, POETRY, THE ATLANTIC >MONTHLY: these magazines all have >aesthetics, narrow editorial policies. >Should they be emulated by young >editors? ... >What I react strongest to is Mr. Bolton's >statements, and Mr. Silliman's. We young >editors don't "get it." We don't know >what the hell we're doing. We're lazy and >we don't know good work. > >Well, that's the tone. I say we are >fortunately bejeweled with enough smart, >fantastic magazines to satisfy any poetic >taste, and to reflect the exciting >work being produced as we all, for >whatever reason, are instead reading >(or writing) this. ... Now to add my two cents: Personally, the magazines that mean the most to me are the ones that are ecclectic enough to surprise me, open enough to include both younger & (neglected) older writers, & focused enough that the magazine, if not necessarily all work in it, seems to represent a kind of "aesthetic" or viewpoint. Probably the print magazines that most consistently satisfy me on these grounds right now are The Germ, Combo & Kenning, though I'm probably forgetting a few others. (By the way, kudos to Andrew & Macgregor for the amazing & gorgeous French poetry issue, which I am still making my way through!) I think that the best way to understand Ron Silliman's post (though I'm not sure that he himself would rephrase it like this) is that those magazines with a highly visible & provocative point of view stand a better chance of making it into literary history than those magazines which "only" publish excellent or challenging work. I'm sure he is right about this. However, I would point out that it is the latter which (often) are more influential. As proof of that, I have only to point out, as Ron did, that no one has attempted to take up where Apex of the M left off. Now, Apex of the M was a wonderful magazine; and if I single it out, it is only because there have not been any *other* magazines in the last 15 years (at least) to have combined such a concentration of good poetry with a polemically-charged editorial stance. However-- & despite its high profile-- NO ONE has attempted to carry on with that sort of project since that magazine folded. Maybe someone will: these things tend to go in cycles. But for now, this is where it stands. By comparison-- & to single out another magazine from roughly the same period-- I think o•blek has been relatively influential. I can think of a few magazines which strike me as having been partially modeled on o•blek's content & format-- though I wish to let those editors speak for themselves, if they want to, rather than indulge in what may be speculation. Also, o•blek's final, "New Coast" issue, I think, has had a lot more impact on U.S. poetry in the last several years than Apex of the M did. I'd also like to point out that, though roughly half of that issue was devoted to poetic "statements" or theory, the overall tone was not polemical, but rather, it had the ecclectic feel of "a gathering." So much for editorial viewpoint. Mark DuCharme _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 14:06:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: edit, editors, editing In-Reply-To: from "Jim Behrle" at Aug 7, 2001 07:28:57 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim, you're obviously walking that difficult line of trying to keep your publication "open" but open to a purpose, as you say, not haphazardly so. It's generous of you to give props to editors everywhere but I can also see where Ron S. is coming from in his implicit call to current editors to at least consider the motivations/implications (aesthetic, political, social, whathaveyou) of their projects. This seems to me the ethical thing to do. I can think of many reasons why you'd want Baraka and McKuen in the same mag and I'm sure you could think of many more. To me, the twin bugbears of journal editing are selection based on fame and selection based on connection (of whatever kind) to the editor. On the one hand, this leads some editors to create very narrow and exclusive publications. On the other hand, some editors, fearing those bugbears to one extent or another, decide to "accept simply the best writing available." HA! There's no such thing, a huge problem. And so one ends with a sort of false "taste"-driven ecclecticism or, fuck it, you take your friends and famous poets anyway and try to explain it as "the best" or shield it by taking a few "unknowns." POETRY may indeed be a narrow-minded publication which selects from a narrow field of writers but I'd venture to say that the writers therein have less of a connection to EACH OTHER than most of the mags I like. So, there's different types of narrowness -- some more problematic than others, at least to me. Which brings me to a question: can a mag be narrow in terms of representing a specific community of writers, and even having a fairly specific editorial intent, and still be "open." I don't think, looking back at it, that there's anything narrow about YUGEN even tho the community it represented was fairly small, as was it's readership (compared with, say, PARIS REVIEW). But there's such a feeling of risk there, and the address of the work is so often entirely PUBLIC (in the sense of poets leaving their work OPEN to the unidentified reader) that it rarely feels exclusive to me. As someone in this thread said, that's a different era, sure. But it seems to me that much of that vibe is worth emulating, and in putting togetehr COMBO I had in the back of my mind that it should be at least a little like YUGEN for a community of poets not in NYC but rather held together by the precarious thread which is e-mail. I have a pretty solid take on what I'm up to with each issue. I write editors notes, do interviews. I am NOT trying to take the "best work." How would I know it if I found it? I DO want work which is ambitious, not trying to do the same old same old of any camp, court or coterie. But I would distinguish the coterie from the evolving community which has earned the right to be identified as such AND continues to evolve. Likewise, I try like help to read all the work sent to me assiduously, so as not to miss the next thing which blows me away. The list of poets who I published in COMBO w/out having ever seen their work elsewhere is numerous - but, importantly, I took the work not becuase it was "the best" in some universal sense but because it *belonged in the community* - indeed was crucial in many cases, to it's development. K. Silem Mohammad, Mark Sardinha, Carl Martin, and (very early on and frequently thereafter) Jessica Chiu, come to mind here. I tried to outline some of my thoughts on this subject in my note to COMBO 8 - vis a vis Steve Evans' critique of FENCE and THE GERM. But it's nice to have another occassion to think things through... -m. According to Jim Behrle: > > This responds to the conversation > about editing: > > I cannot name a publication that is > slapped together thoughtlessly and > haphazardly. Like them, like their > choices or not, someone is making the > calls, putting this poet next to that, > etc. > > A good friend of mine recently told > me I wasn't a real editor. This hurt > me quite a bit, but to a certain degree > I agree. I cast a large field, I send > no rejections. In the same issue you'll > find poems by Amiri Baraka and Rod McKuen, > for example. Bernstein and Bukowski in > another. In the first issue, Pinsky and > Stroffolino. This is not done thoughtlessly > or haphazardly. > > THE NEW YORKER, POETRY, THE ATLANTIC > MONTHLY: these magazines all have > aesthetics, narrow editorial policies. > Should they be emulated by young > editors? > > I guess I could start something--"The > Cool School"--and a magazine--COOL-- > and include every poet I slept with > and who wrote, thought and dressed > like me (it would be a really tiny > magazine). That would have a strong > aesthetic and a firm editorial hand. > But why should a reader care about > COOL? Because it makes an editorial > statement? > > What I react strongest to is Mr. Bolton's > statements, and Mr. Silliman's. We young > editors don't "get it." We don't know > what the hell we're doing. We're lazy and > we don't know good work. > > Well, that's the tone. I say we are > fortunately bejeweled with enough smart, > fantastic magazines to satisfy any poetic > taste, and to reflect the exciting > work being produced as we all, for > whatever reason, are instead reading > (or writing) this. > > The definition of an editor is, simply, > someone who is in charge of a magazine. > I tip my hat to the whole breed--it is > thankless, frustrating, exhilerating > and rewarding work. > > So somebody comes to my magazine. They > scratch their heads, "What the hell is this > poet doing here?" Maybe they click on, maybe > they encounter the work, maybe they love or > hate it, say to themselves, "This guy's not > so bad," or "Wow, she sucks." Or they skip > by, they click on a friend, or a poet they've > heard of but haven't read. > > I've given the reader choices. I've done my job, > I'm a real editor. Call it a "gathering." Call it > "eclecticism." Bishop wrote, "Somebody loves us all." > I have once again earned my zero dollar paycheck. > > --Jim Behrle > > PS: Submissions to COOL or applicants to > "The Cool School" please backchannel. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 14:31:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Re: edit, editors, editing In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jim, I too follow your ideals on editing. You are a real editor and tell your friend who said you are not to suck a lemon. I love this idea and feel suspect over journals who place too much of THEM over what writers submit. I am on your side if you need it. best, Geoffrey Geoffrey Gatza editor BlazeVOX2k1 http://vorplesword.com/ -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Jim Behrle Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 7:29 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: edit, editors, editing This responds to the conversation about editing: I cannot name a publication that is slapped together thoughtlessly and haphazardly. Like them, like their choices or not, someone is making the calls, putting this poet next to that, etc. A good friend of mine recently told me I wasn't a real editor. This hurt me quite a bit, but to a certain degree I agree. I cast a large field, I send no rejections. In the same issue you'll find poems by Amiri Baraka and Rod McKuen, for example. Bernstein and Bukowski in another. In the first issue, Pinsky and Stroffolino. This is not done thoughtlessly or haphazardly. THE NEW YORKER, POETRY, THE ATLANTIC MONTHLY: these magazines all have aesthetics, narrow editorial policies. Should they be emulated by young editors? I guess I could start something--"The Cool School"--and a magazine--COOL-- and include every poet I slept with and who wrote, thought and dressed like me (it would be a really tiny magazine). That would have a strong aesthetic and a firm editorial hand. But why should a reader care about COOL? Because it makes an editorial statement? What I react strongest to is Mr. Bolton's statements, and Mr. Silliman's. We young editors don't "get it." We don't know what the hell we're doing. We're lazy and we don't know good work. Well, that's the tone. I say we are fortunately bejeweled with enough smart, fantastic magazines to satisfy any poetic taste, and to reflect the exciting work being produced as we all, for whatever reason, are instead reading (or writing) this. The definition of an editor is, simply, someone who is in charge of a magazine. I tip my hat to the whole breed--it is thankless, frustrating, exhilerating and rewarding work. So somebody comes to my magazine. They scratch their heads, "What the hell is this poet doing here?" Maybe they click on, maybe they encounter the work, maybe they love or hate it, say to themselves, "This guy's not so bad," or "Wow, she sucks." Or they skip by, they click on a friend, or a poet they've heard of but haven't read. I've given the reader choices. I've done my job, I'm a real editor. Call it a "gathering." Call it "eclecticism." Bishop wrote, "Somebody loves us all." I have once again earned my zero dollar paycheck. --Jim Behrle PS: Submissions to COOL or applicants to "The Cool School" please backchannel. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 12:48:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath and Who's Great In-Reply-To: <3B70211F.5713.4BAAFA9@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >George Bowering Writes: > >I mean greatness comes when you are still considered vastly important >after all the fads are over. Unless you are Peter the Great or somone. >I mean greatness while being alive is mainly a matter of op[inion in >individuals ior groups of individuals. I mean do we know whether >people in the year 2666 will recognize the name Pollock or Ashbery?> > >I reply: > >Still though, I'd say that "greatness", even after a person's been long >dead is still very much a matter of opinion. And the opinions are >grounded very much in the present of the ones with the winning >opinion. (And that's only my opinion, btw.) > That is kind of true. But there must be some other criterion. Otherwise, whatsernam Aguilara would be a great singer. -- George Bowering Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 08:13:36 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Julie Kizershot Subject: Re: contact request Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit If you write to Thalia at Naropa 2130 Arapahoe Boulder CO 80302 Summer Writing Program it can be forwarded to her--she'll also be at Brown this coming year ---------- >From: RaeA100900@AOL.COM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: contact request >Date: Tue, Aug 7, 2001, 4:34 PM > > I hope someone can backchannel me email addresses for Sianne Ngai and Thalia > Field. Thanks in advance. > > Rae Armantrout ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 12:52:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: prague In-Reply-To: <20010808120807.IDJD3036.mailhost.cle.ameritech.net@laptop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >I will be in Prague from sept 13 thru the 23 - any hints, contacts, pointers? > >thanks, >michael salinger Dont worry: there are 300,000 USAmericans in Prague. You'll find someone with a question for any answer. -- George Bowering Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 19:15:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rebecca Wolff Subject: fran carlen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello, does anyone know how to reach Fran Carlen? Thanks, Rebecca Wolff Fence ********** Rebecca Wolff Fence et al. 14 Fifth Avenue, #1A New York, NY 10011 http://www.fencemag.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 12:44:42 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: plath/greatness MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Komminos and Poeticas. True. And apoem of course has a "higher meaning" over and above it's ostensible meaning.(You probably know this or the general "drift" of what I'm poking at). The connections or connotations (eg to "patriarchialism in your case - which unless someone draws my attention to it - is irrelevant to me: or to whether a poem is "about" whatever is often irrelevant: its the way the poem is structure and adds to the poem..but in all cases a poem needs the energy and magic of language: the mystery that reflects the fundamental human mystery of consciouness and creativity...again which is not to say that a writer has no structure of or overarching formulation or drive or obsession: on fact I think in Plath's case the torment (however it came about) helped to energise her creative thinking....as in my own case I was writing a poem a week when in a state of great grief and emotional turmoil due to a separation, and I havent said this before but that WAS why I was writing for love or loss or insecurity or the fear of death and obliteration oblivion which I think are those irrational rationalities that "motivatee" us in conjunction with say the sight of a sunset, or some object, or the listening to music, or reading something, or overhearing a conversation, being intrigued by a piece of graffitti, a "forieign" or unusual movie, music, whatever: these things inter-energise: its not enough for me for a poet to play ALL THE TIME...I put that in shout because I dont want to reject play: in fact play is a marvellous energiser, and its maybe a pity that not more joy (as well as darkness etc) was in Plath's or Berryman's or whatever poet's life to well the dark-light energisation: I feel that Alan Sondheim comes close....he almost writes "too much" but ...who knows...there's some fascinating stuff he pours out of himself: like the man's on fire...) Your experience of "meeting" Plath was similar to mine. Then I went on an Ashbery jag: my best wishes to that marvellous poet through the List by the way. Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "komninos zervos" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 10:13 AM Subject: Re: plath/greatness > i heard a reading of 'daddy' on an lp of poetry and knew that poem > was great when i heard it. i still have a copy of it and play it > occassionally, it created a poetic moment for me the first time i > heard it and continues to do so. > the poem was powerful and not autobiographical for me - i didn't know > anything about plath at the time. > the poem, for me, spoke of patriarchy(in its extreme form - fascism) > not specifically _her_ father or _her_ husband or _her_ teachers > i later found out about sylvia plath and her history and mystery > which was of interest but added nothing to the poem. > > in my canon, and we all have one, this poem is high in the list. > > hope this is helpful > > > komninos > ps. all the rest is politics, hype and conjecture and part of a > continuing dialogue which constructs the greatness of the author. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 13:30:54 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ammonides@AOL.COM Subject: Dart post for Joe #2 (sucked back) Comments: cc: joe.amato@colorado.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am less than you, Joe. Stench-ridden, puss-pimpled, fat with drink. Unbelievably long turds snake out my butt (though I should never confess it-- how shameful the look and smell of it). Sometimes after I scratch my oily hole in the "DARK OF NIGHT," I smell my finger and then go back to REM'ed sleep like a child. I marvel at the napalmish odor of my morning breath, cupped in my hand. No one invites me to dinner anymore. * (Two weeks ago I screamed at my twelve year old on a canoe trip down the Wisconsin River because he tried to pry open a clam he'd found in the shallows, and I screamed you little fucking jerk, I screamed, you little piece of shit, it's an endangered fresh water clam, what is wrong with you, huh, you little fuck, it's on the endangered species list... Oh Dad, oh Dad, he wept, sitting on the beached canoe, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, he said (certain that he'd ruined everything, on this birthday present trip for him). I'm sorry, I, I, I thought that clams only lived in the ocean [his curled-in-ball and rocking form]) * It bothers me that the human body smells so revoltingly after death, and I grow ridiculously melancholic watching the sewer waters of the Choqueyapu rush by, in this god-forsakenly beautiful city of La Paz. To what should we liken, Joe, the American poetic avant-garde? To a long, snaking turd? To an endangered clam? To a lovely boy, washed for heaven, entering a market in Jerusalem? What is the relationship of our poetic avant-garde's "that's too much personal information" [illegible passage] to a clump of Semtex strapped in a dark boy's crotch? * In a photograph in Jacket, my head is at a coquettish tilt. A stick for writing is lightly pressed against my lips. The whole under-boulder world of chrysalises and slugs has broken loose (digitzed whirs). I am wild with it, Joe, wild with the romanticism under the fiber-glass rock, the kind that hide the little satellite dish, locked into its authorial beam. This is what I meant, I think, about prosody needing to be taught with a vengeance, no wires attached. This is what I meant when I said, "Don't condemn my name. I love you." Ammonides ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 11:38:22 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "][-n.sert-][" Subject: i limb & hear Comments: To: h3o-o3h@www.god-emil.dk, nettime-l@bbs.thing.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" .we begin post hocian, a dream .drenched in tinted burning sound .where bottles line the walls, a silver .tongued dervish spouting fig][l][ures. .i limb & hear. my caul removed N .borg n.stalled .my mouth stretched open .[b][l][onded rictus] .rest][r][ained by code, a woman's .throat is captured androidmetric .a toothless grin and bones of .fettered numbers .a pinkless back and arms of .hammered gloss .books overhaul .pages rentakill .pinches of organs and .b][runette][uckets .a hoopla over skin N tissued .whispers .i sink my smile N shu][dd][tter in .my l][ines][oss .a locus of oozing polymer .a red covered s][t][ink .my hands move through the .se][e.page]2[wer .a co][nvulsive][de][a][d thought line . . .... ..... net.wurker][M.ollient][ pro.ject.ile x.blooms.x .go.here. xXXx ./. www.hotkey.net.au/~netwurker .... . .??? ....... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 00:32:44 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: Final Reading of the Summer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII READING - St. John's, NF Monday, August 13 at the Ship Inn. Michael Winter (novelist) Joel Hynes (actor/playwrite) Kevin Hehir (migrant poetry worker) Open mic to follow 9:00 pm free. always. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 00:29:57 +0000 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath & What's Great Comments: To: Patrick Herron MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Patrick-- Taking you'all seriously-- Living writers who are great & may all their ears burn in this public proclamation Over 70-- Jack Gilbert Gerritt Lansing In their thirties-- Julie Otten Terrance Hayes Rachel Loden I would add Terri Ford & Christy Sheffield-Sanford also, though I am unsure offhand if they are over or under your 50 mark. I also would include Jimmy Santiago-Baca --except two new books of his arrived today-- which might change my opinion. I believe in the Marianne Moore model for greatness. All of the above living writers have this in common: few collections out, in each collection every poem is great. Obviously this condition of greatness may change for the thirty somethings as more collections are released but at least Hayes will fit the commoner notion of greatness as he won a bunch of awards including the Whitting, & his 2nd book is forthcoming from the National Poetry Series. Considering the above criteria, Ashbery is not great. A poet with great books, yes; but he released a bunch that slighted his audience and his poetic genius after signing a multi-book contract and rushing the completion of his poems through an adroit publication process. I am the reader who feels cheated. Gilbert, on the other hand, has only released three collections so far. Views of Jeopardy won the Yale Younger in the early 60's, back when the contest openly sought talent, and the collection included poems composed over a decade earlier from his & Duncan & Spicer's roundtable days. The second reprinted some of these poems and added a new section, the third: all new work. I offer that a great poet controls the poems they send into the ethos, and while they may have individual early poems or even later ones that appear in journals, in regards to a full length collection only the great poems are published. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 00:31:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: searching for service MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - searching for service can you keep your cell phone in its cradle after charging? should the cradle be unplugged? what happens if you misdial and make a new friend? do your messages stutter and cut out upon completion? do you know someone who can never reach you? would you roam for a dollar a minute? two dollars? does roving permit your access to remote mountains and valleys? can you meet your new friends online? does the message whisper to you with your new-found voice? do you have an inner voice which represents your cell phone? tell me about niceness, cell phone. are there cell phone happy moments when online and environment mix? are you in your world? is anyone? would you come into my world if i came into yours? do you think in whispers with your cell phone online? do you receive web messages that excite you with their tone? can you understand our frustration in reaching you? where are you in the midst of digital silences? do the silences ever become absolute cutting off all communication? can the communication be retrieved? does it depart forever? are you threatened by your vulnerability everywhere? do you carry your cell phone on? do you carry it off? do you speak to yourself one phone to another? are you your voice? your enunciation? your enunciated? do you feel you are always spoken for when you use your cell phone? have you ever tracked someone, city to city, street to street? have you ever tracked someone, body to body, mind to mind? is your cell phone your tongue, your lips, your most private voice? is your cell phone your arms, your legs, your most public voice? do you hear voices when your cell phone is off? do you speak in broken phrases? are they your own? do you own your voice, your speech, your cell phone? can a cell phone be owned? can the network? can your words? tell me about obsession, cell phone. would you speak on cell phone, what you would not speak in person? is a cell phone a person? is it on your person? are you on its person? would you speak on cell phone, what you would not say from home? is your home your silent speech? is your home silent? are your lovers in your home? are your lovers on your cell phone? are your lovers in your cell phone? are your lovers with you? is your cell phone a distraction or the central point of your existence? is your existence epistemologically a cellular circulation? does your cell phone contribute to this circulation? are you a node in the circulation of communality and communication? are you in your silences? are you in your disruptions of speech and phenomena? tell me about being and process, cell phone. do you carry your being with you? do you speed-dial being? of what would it be within this world, to have been spoken-for with the speech of which you are the custom, the circulation within which you are the culture, the cell phone, of which you are the harbinger of new humans caught within the construction of creativity and annihilation? tell me about the world. roaming charges apply. _ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 00:42:26 +0000 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: edit, editors, editing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ron-- I'm not sure what you are reading but I have seen many issues of magazines with recent poetic statements of impact None are located on the East or West Coast tho perhaps that is why-- Here is ours from issue #5 there is another in #6 ------------------------ Editor’s note: Howdy, to those just joining in fray or those who knew the fabric before tailored. If not, Pavement Saw runs width, across things continuing. Here, at the magic fifth issue mark, where most journals and magazines fold, I’d like to briefly say something for once to define why I do what I do, to clarify. As an editor, I've never pushed for large sales based names. The opportunity has arose to publish central figures in 2nd generation NY school, Language poetry, Beat, & other movements, but to publish dribble based on sales or gaining “cultural capital” is a horseshit notion based on short term gain and lack of marketing abilities. We have published brand new names with a primary focus on bookless or only one book authors. Our first books and chapbooks have allowed the movement of authors to a selling point, without using the name as a brand identification. Expect the same. Being in it for the long haul means we allow those published here to move forward at their pace, capitalized on, if and when, later. All of our full length book authors, except for the yearly contest title, have appeared in the magazine first or were brought to our attention by authors who first appeared in these pages. This journal is your best bet towards a full length collection. We are biased towards first collections and authors who have appeared widely in journals and magazines without receiving national recognition for their books as evidenced with our recently published Simon Perchik and Richard Blevins collections as well as the forthcoming Selected Poems by Alan Catlin, an author with forty chapbooks. Overall these publications, including the journal, have durability, as a pavement saw does, 6 foot high & cutting, caring naught for history but needing it to forward the blade. Any poet, worth their salt, knows their beliefs, they defend the form. I have a few beliefs: 1.) The best service a journal can perform for a writer is to send the material back immediately if there is any doubt. Sure we could hold onto work for a year & arrive at the same decision, but by returning material within three months, better submissions arrive overall. Unfortunately the year+ time-trend set by established journals has influenced newer journals to a new lack of ethics where returning materials to contributors, quickly, or at all, is unimportant. While I admit it might be nice to have the time to show "signs of real discrimination" for each piece coming in: there is not. With over 2000 submissions for the journal, say 13,000 poems, & 620 manuscripts this year, I do not comment, I slice. Quick and abrupt judgements. 2.) There is too much crap in "experimental" poetries. 3.) There is too much crap in "traditional" poetries. 4.) These two coasts are unaware of each other. Each faction, including unnamed others, want to rest where they are, comfortable in their divisionary idea of poetry. Publishing the largest known names of each section uses branding techniques to forward a paltry few lesser knowns. Partitioning of the audience which is enhanced through marketing methods based upon name recognition, race, sexual preference and other characteristics has lead us to the primary question: how to create a unified readership without creating more poets or lowering the medium’s standard. Sure, a poet swimsuit calendar might sell, but at what cost to the (i)deal? Our answer is in here, as well as in the five full length titles and one chapbook released last year. 5.) I do not care what the author thinks of their own work, but especially so when there is a underlying manipulative intent. This is applies to any author, do not mistake this, we are pagists who have learned the splitting of author and poem to the nth degree. We are the readers and give fuck naught number one for authorial opinion, you either send the poem into space freely, without ties, or it stays home where its frail insecurities lie. 6.) Do not inflict yourself upon an audience with uninformed material. 7.) We run a pure organization. While this sounds awkward, consecration to poetry is an incorruptible force. For this reason all of our contests are chosen anonymously. Our sparsity of women authors in our book length publications is directly caused by corruptible organizations. In fact, we lost three titles due to publishers sudden need to “balance” their title list with female authors. As these fickle publishers change their policies yet again, we will be waiting. We also do not believe in the policy of demanding our full length authors to pay for their own advertising which has become standard with most university published books. 8.) Poems about sex have to be as good as sex. Guidelines: One must actualize the poem, be the container for that which radiates forth. Until poems are realized and actuated, the form is naught and merely a hiding place, a word field to meaninglessly spray others with. Send 5 poems or prose with a signed cover letter, address and e-mail. Expect to be rejected at least one time. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 02:34:12 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: _Fortunate Son_ author Hatfield Found Dead Comments: To: ImitaPo , Fiends MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Revisionist History Part II The author of the book about GW that was pulled from shelves during the 2000 campaign, JH Hatfield, was found dead in a hotel room on July 20 or 21, of an apparent suicide. http://chicago.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=3701&group=webcast It seems Hatfield really messed with the wrong family, a family whose personal fortune rests on the financing of Hitler, a Savings & Loan scandal, wars of all sorts, weapons manufacture and distribution, general colonial mentality, and the illegal drugs trade. Oh, yeah, and oil, banking, and intelligence. Assassination. Politics. And baseball, too. Author of a book that angered the Bushes, a most violent and skilled family. Dead from an alleged suicide. Pulled from St. Martins Press and bookshelves across the nation, allegedly because Hatfield was a convicted felon. Now THAT'S power. Coincidence? Police say there will be no investigation of foul play. The price of freedom. Patrick Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org http://proximate.org/ getting close is what we're all about here! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 08:22:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rebecca Wolff Subject: Re: Editors In-Reply-To: <20010809040912.D540E18B81@mail.angel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Here's the Editors' Note to the current issue of Fence "In the Context of No Context" What good are literary magazines, she often wonders, as she works on one. What should they accomplish? Sometimes the comments of a reader or a critic reinforce the urgency of such questions, and this is helpful. Skeptical self-questioning may transform into ambient self-doubt without the benefit of re-direction, of sharpening. On the event, then, of having been questioned, the editors reply with some notes toward a larger answer. Should literary magazines be committed to a literary/political agenda? She often likes to read magazines that express commitment to particular agendas or communities of writers or lineages of thinking on writing. She believes that magazines do this in order to affirm the inherent value of community and to allow creative work to resonate with and support other work that shares its commitments and methods. Nonetheless, her magazine takes a different approach. She feels that much of what is valuable in writing is larger than its own context(s). Some magazines should not try to offer critical or historical agendas or contextualization to work they publish. Others should try and then fail. Others should try and then succeed. This is experiment. Literary magazines together are an experiment. Parts of this experiment will be boring and parts will be crass and other parts still will be exciting, and this is all to the good. She feels that it is useful to note when parts of it are boring or crass or exciting or enviable, and to note it with sympathy for the larger and shared endeavor. A literary magazine is, among other things, a literary position. Must this position be explicit? She wishfully envisions a literary culture that values expressions of confusion and contradiction. She wishes our educational system taught tolerance for confusion and contradiction. She fears we are trying to eliminate confusion and contradiction and that this could increase ignorance and injustice. Ignorance and injustice often being relieved by expressions of curiosity and generosity. So perhaps a literary magazine might do well to function as a call for attunement to-and metabolization of-alternate and dissonant ways of thinking and being, as they are expressed in writing. These might include radically new ways of thinking and being, old-fashioned but as yet untried modalities, and "mainstream" but useful or even beautiful perspectives. A call for attunement is not an exact science. While she loves many poets and many poetics and also poetry that abjures poetics, no one perspective she has yet encountered has been enough on its own to make her want to give up the pleasures and potentials of every other way of thinking/ being/reading/writing. Almost, as she is suggestible and adventurous. But three or four perspectives together-together angrily, or naively or tenderly or erotically, or in alienation from one another or with magnetism toward one another or in irrelevance to one another: overlapping, resonating, etc.-now, that seems enticing. She features what she considers a strength, but which may well be called a weakness in the larger picture: She does not wish to exclude. Exclusivity is necessary to a great many worthy endeavors and processes. Nonetheless, the inequities of the world being as cruel as they are and the dominance of exclusion being as culpable as it is, she defines her politics and her projects as inclusive rather than exclusive. This reinforces the potential for stylistic/polemical drift or unmoored loyalties, and she tries her best to navigate these risks and to produce new potentials from them. Must a literary magazine necessarily take itself very seriously in order to be important or illuminating or intellectual? The ways in which art changes the world can be subtle. They can produce negative changes. The changes can be long in coming and hard to predict. She likes to think that a literary magazine can be skeptical, given these possibilities, but loving. Without both skepticism and affection, an editor is likely to miss a great deal. Missing a great deal is not an experiment nor is it a shared endeavor nor is it likely to help readers or writers. She loves some literary magazines for their awareness of their own relationship to the reader, the poet, the larger culture-and she loves it when some magazines affect that awareness in ways that are compelling and offer insight: an analytic act. She also loves it when some literary magazines posit a version of the literary universe that is slightly utopian, possibly naive: an imaginative act. She prefers the latter activity for her own endeavor because it complements her own abilities and her temperament and her values. She doesn't think it's better; it's just one way of being among other ways: necessary to the whole. These are responses to one or two questions that have recently been posed to her. Fence is also interested in responding to questions that have not been and cannot be and should not be asked, hence the following 186 pages. Your turn. Caroline Crumpacker & Rebecca Wolff ********** Rebecca Wolff Fence et al. 14 Fifth Avenue, #1A New York, NY 10011 http://www.fencemag.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 06:07:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michael amberwind Subject: Re: unusual request/punk rock name MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii and this is related to poetry or poetics *how*? all right - i'll toss in a few 7 Second Rape Salad Spinners for Jesus A/S/L? Breakfast Not Champions Dale of Doo Wah Diddy's Who Ate My Sombrero? The Easy Lays Yacatisma Shotgun Zek ********** i think Zek is the best one - it's Russian slang for prisoner - quick and short if you use any of these i expect a free CD and a t shirt :-) > Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 14:20:54 -0400 > From: ". sandra" > Subject: Re: unusual request/punk rock name > > and how about: > > the clashbuttons > clashstein > the magnificent cash > clashgate > the mad gabriels > blessedivision > heretic heroes > > > --On Quinta-feira, 2 de Agosto de 2001, 16:12 > -0400 ANASTASIOS KOZAITIS > wrote: > > > How about > > > > Oedipus and the Electric Waist Band > > Polity and Prison > > Illegitimate Presidents > > The Inauthentics > > The Flying Kennedys > > > > > > At 10:07 AM 8/1/01, Ammonides@AOL.COM wrote: > >> My son and four of his friends are starting > a punk rock band (this one > >> has an oboe in it hooked up to some digital > contraption-- they are good, > >> have alredy been asked to play with God's > Reflex, a pretty well-known > >> band in underground circles, at gigs in > Chicago-- The Bowl and > >> Metropole). > >> > >> They've been trying to come up with a good > name, and have been getting > >> into disagreements over the issue. These > guys are pretty sophisticated > >> 16-18 year old Genoa anarchist types: Three > names which I've suggested, > >> "Oedipus and the Motherfuckers," "Bataille's > Thing," and "Fake Pessoa," > >> have all been rejected as "too pompous" or > "pushy" (though I know their > >> knowledge of the last two figures is > slight). I told them that I would > >> query the Poetics list for suggestions and > they enthusiastically agreed > >> that I should. > >> > >> Any imaginative suggestions (but not > "pompous" ones)? Any ideas > >> appreciated. > > ------------------------------ ===== ...I am a real poet. My poem is finished and I haven't mentioned orange yet. It's twelve poems, I call it ORANGES. And one day in a gallery I see Mike's painting, called SARDINES. [from "Why I Am Not A Painter" by Frank O'Hara] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 12:13:01 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Re: prague Comments: To: RaeA100900@AOL.COM In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Spend lots of time in the Old Time. Check out Prague Castle and the Charles Bridge. Make sure you catch the changing of the Town Hall clock. Dine along the Vltava. Be prepared for people at restaurants and other businesses to give you the wrong amount of change or ask you to pay when you're supposed to pay someone else, or give you a differently priced English menu, so always be aware. Take advantage of fine dining opportunities if you can...meals that would cost you $60-$100 (or more) in the US will cost you about $20-$35 (700-1300 Kc) in Praha, but if you are vegetarian, do proceed with caution. The beer was also once very cheap there, and probably still is. Absinthe is easily found in Prague. Best, Patrick Herron > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of > RaeA100900@AOL.COM > Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 12:56 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: prague > > > Speaking of Prague, I will also be in Prague (on December 19-29.) > Does anyone > have tips or contact suggestions? > > Rae Armantrout > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 12:28:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: editing &tc In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I'm not an editor, but I was an assistant editor (of The Ohio Review-- so there's the aesthetic position for you I guess, wink-wink) for a time, so, uh, I'll say something anyway. I think that editors have to publish work they believe in. (Some would say "work they like") I don't see how any journal can get away from this. What is it that the band RUSH screached way back when? "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice"? Which becomes an aesthetic. (yada-yada, as they say) But I must say that choosing not to cull something makes for boring work. And though I don't enjoy POETRY magazine's aesthetic, I think it's good they have (he has) one. And I know to stear clear. Wheras Colorado Review or Denver Quarterly or Chicago Review, etc etc, have identifyable aesthetic positions that I find consistently engaging and fun. So I pick them up whenever I can. I guess I don't see what all the fuss is about. JG ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 16:38:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Jimi Hendrix MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII If anyone has Jimi Hendrix' email address, could they back-channel it to me? Thanks, Alan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 17:17:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: hassen Subject: Pivotal Apothegms of the New Ophthalmologists MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable forwarding this for another . . . h ************************************** Pivotal Apothegms of the New Ophthalmologists =20 1. We recognize the hegemony of cool-sounding words, = word-combinations and phrases that do not accrete into an artwork = greater than the sum of its parts must be stopped. In short, = death to hipsterism in all its forms, the oxygen bar of the conventional = and unimaginative. =B7 Cool words like "crenulate," "imbroglio," = "rectilinear," "gossamer," "declension" and "rhododendron." Neat phrases = like "as if angular," "of about a at and" and = catch-all word combos like "unison gaudy shimmy diatribal." 2. Good intentions are never enough (to buy you dinner).=20 3. Anhedonia be damned. =B7 Repression + artifice =3D divorce. It's nice to strut around = in fancy clothes, but if you can't take them off, go back to Sunday = school. 4. Listserves are not liberating, multi-authored cineplex = paradisios. Cyberverse is the Marinettism of today. Preciosity's special = effects have found a new home in W[eb]b A/r(gh)t. The more = things stay the same, the more we should change. 5. Radical, indeterminate syntax has the determinate effect of = constricting the emotional arteries. Little emotions and broad gestures = are the mark of the devil. 6. Art without darkness illuminates nothing. Lightness is = necessary in order to salt the wound. 7. The poem and poet rarely make friends. Those who talk about = "co-participation" know this and try to substitute a happy, '50s-ish, = "Leave it to Beaver" family relationship with the reader for = the eternally unequal playing field of poet and poem. A real poem teases = the poet, stinging without end until shot down with word = tranquilizer. A real poem is a permeable stockade. =B7 We understand the logic behind the talk about = "co-participation" - an ideology perfectly suited for our culture of = consumption. Let the reader do the work, while the = poet sits back and receives his or her complimentary hand job. 8. No genre is inherently greater than the next. Genre-crashing = by professional genre-bangers is not inherently superior to working in = received forms. Genre-crashing has become a received form. 9. Two good hypernyms won't save your soul. Alternately, "I am = still trying to live up to my blue china" - Wilde. 10. Backscratching is tedious work. 11. Poetry comes closest to music when it's song. Current analogies = that poets draw between their work and techno or mixing beats are = laughable. Does Eshleman expect us to believe his work is Paleolithic? = Yes he does. The cave must be soundproof. 12. An explanatory poetry is a crime against all art. Art that is = all critique is rarely enough. 13 Smartness is overrated and betrays a sheepish desire for = respectability. Likewise, the obsession with technical innovation = degenerates into a concern for proper form and = discursive behavior. In short, "cultural" capital and social standing. = In short, academic politics. 14 To privilege language or 'meaning production' as the ideal = subject matter of poetry is provincial to the core. If language were = adequate to experience there would be no need to write a = poem. =B7 We applaud that poetry which displays a true love of = language and word play. We are tired of those who heroicize Stein = but continue to produce texts as pleasurable as a tetanus shot. 15 To advance a poetry based on its subject matter is as futile as = advancing one based on form. To champion one form over all others is = a form of cultural chauvinism similar to that of the "English-only" = group. 16 The formal debate is a waste of precious airtime. To argue which = is better, for example, metaphor or metonymy, is an insult to poetry. 17 One perception must fuck with another. Or the poem dies from = lack of tension, conflict (meaning). =B7 Opacity tends to be a poor substitute for ambiguity and = paradox. Obscurity is often all too obvious. 18 A poem is not an example of fully rationalized aesthetic praxis. = To wrestle with terror, beauty, history, possibility goes beyond the = discourse of 'practice.' =B7 "You must make tracks into the unknown" - Thoreau. 19 We do not present a single view of the world since the world is = not a single thing. 20 The bi-coastal bifurcation between West = Coast--disembodied--pseudo-intellectual--Blanchot is cool--verse and = East Coast--smart-alecky--gossip- and coterie-tipsy--guess who I slept = (and collaborated) with--verse is such a drag. a.. The combination of the two is even worse. 21 Death to comfortable irony, which spreads whenever the literary = overtakes the real. Irony is a linguistic phenomenon that deals with = pre-inscribed meanings and how these contradict each other. To banish = irony is ironic. 22 In a N.O. poem, the I is endangered, threatened, fighting for = air. 23 Great art is characterized by how much of the world it can = embrace (engage). This has nothing to do with a range of reference or = how many meanings can be generated per line. 24 Humor should inflict some kind of injury. Remember the essence = of the cante jondo celebrated by Lorca: to weep beautifully. As = some MC said, "I can't feel nothin' unless it's lethal." 25 Free the language microscopes from the lab. We propose to = manufacture instead infrared goggles to see in this darkness. To = see it and see through it. =B7 To see how one sees and thinks takes work. We are not = self-evident creatures. 26 When your dreams feel more real than anything you've experienced = over the last two months, what time are we in? 27 We do not locate autonomy in the word, in the sign = detemporalized and freed from the past, but in the imagination and its = ever- arriving futures. The imagination - the source of all = magic. =B7 Autonomy and freedom are not givens, but must be fought for. = Marginality and difference, or "non-normativity", do not = equal autonomy. "Unrepresentative" work does not automatically create = autonomy. 28. As the tactician says, "Moments belong to us." 29. Language itself is a fragment. 30. Literary movements, like New Ophthalmologism, like time, are = imaginary constructions. =20 =20 For more pivotal apothegms, visit http://www.bloodsausage.com/misc/dh/ =20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 17:21:49 -0400 Reply-To: BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath and Who's Great MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trying to determine who under fifty may be great is extremely hard simply because there are so many poets writing, and it is so easy to find greatness in one of them which is only borrowed from another with whose work one is unfamiliar. I would prefer to answer the question, who under fifty has written at least one poem of the first rank? A few I can think of (and I'm also handicapped by not knowing the ages of many poets; that said, I have to admit that I have definitely lost touch with poets under thirty; I do know a few, but . . .): Geof Huth, Crag Hill, Jake Berry . . . I refuse to even say which poems of theirs I consider first-rank. I'm just answering Patrick's question. As for the fifty or over, three just into that bracket that have written first-rate poems, and that I am willing to deem great are Jonathan Brannen, Stephen-Paul Martin and Mike Basinski. The living American poet of whose greatness I am most confident is John M. Bennett (though that doesn't mean I am confident that the world will ever agree with me). --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 18:43:19 -0400 Reply-To: BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What in the world does nihilism have to do with the idea that an individual has the right, finally, to do whatever he wants to with his own body? Surely that suggests a person's body is meaningful, and nihilism is the doctrine that nothing is meaningful. --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 18:57:37 -0400 Reply-To: BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath and Who's Great MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A person can also be called great for doing great work regardless of what the world says about him. For instance, if Pollock is forgotten in fifty years, it won't mean he wasn't really great (as the first to do his kind of significantly new painting), only that posterity is stupid and/or has a lousy memory. Ditto for certain Pollock-level culturateurs, as I call them, who never win anything like the notice Pollock did. Note: this is a Mere Assertion that I refuse to Argue for at this time. --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 20:39:01 -0400 Reply-To: Nate and Jane Dorward Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nate and Jane Dorward Subject: Re: edit, editors, editing Comments: cc: tinaiskingofmonsterisland@HOTMAIL.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry to jump in on this one rather late in the day--I only read the list via the web at the moment. But I've been editing magazines now since the early 1990s, first a grad-student journal (my first taste of committee-work: ugh), most recently (from 1998 on) _The Gig_, a chapbook poetry magazine, & so I can't help putting in my two cents. > A good friend of mine recently told > me I wasn't a real editor. This hurt > me quite a bit, but to a certain degree > I agree. I cast a large field, I send > no rejections. Not to be offensive but in my books it doesn't count as "editing" if you don't reject anything. (I recall my efforts in writing up an account of the editing of _The English Intelligencer_, a UK 1960s worksheet--Peter Riley, who edited its 2nd series, was firm about my registering a distinction between those parts of its lifespan in which it was "edited" & those in which it was "assembled".) -- Aesthetic pluralism is fine--Baraka & McKuen side by side, if you like--assuming that's the aim of the magazine, but any editor worth his/her salt is going to have to be ruthless with the rejection slips. Or did you simply mean to say "I don't reject any aesthetic fields out of hand"? I might be more sympathetic to that position, though as it happens I'm usually happiest with poetry journals that are quite specialized in focus (& preferably have some toothy prose in them too). The reason for a firm editorial hand is that one is, as an editor, implicitly acting as an advocate for the poets included, which means providing a compelling vehicle for their work. & that requires that one try as hard as possible to make the magazine consistently good--consistently wonderful if at all possible. Readers will pick and choose among an issue's contents, certainly, but it's the editor's job to make that a pleasurable as opposed to frustrating experience. all best --N Nate & Jane Dorward ndorward@sprint.ca THE GIG magazine: http://www.geocities.com/ndorward/ 109 Hounslow Ave., Willowdale, ON, M2N 2B1, Canada ph: (416) 221 6865 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 12:53:50 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: prague MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dont go. Just put on the (actually misnamed apparently ) "Prague Symphony" and soak it up. All I can say is: "Its all right for some". Regards, Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 4:56 AM Subject: Re: prague > Speaking of Prague, I will also be in Prague (on December 19-29.) Does anyone > have tips or contact suggestions? > > Rae Armantrout > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 21:16:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Re: edit, editors, editing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Nate Dorward wrote: >Not to be offensive but in my books it doesn't count as "editing" if you >don't reject anything. I should have been more specific. I solicit all the work for the magazine. --Jim ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Nate and Jane Dorward" Reply-To: "Nate and Jane Dorward" To: CC: Subject: Re: edit, editors, editing Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 20:39:01 -0400 Sorry to jump in on this one rather late in the day--I only read the list via the web at the moment. But I've been editing magazines now since the early 1990s, first a grad-student journal (my first taste of committee-work: ugh), most recently (from 1998 on) _The Gig_, a chapbook poetry magazine, & so I can't help putting in my two cents. > A good friend of mine recently told > me I wasn't a real editor. This hurt > me quite a bit, but to a certain degree > I agree. I cast a large field, I send > no rejections. (I recall my efforts in writing up an account of the editing of _The English Intelligencer_, a UK 1960s worksheet--Peter Riley, who edited its 2nd series, was firm about my registering a distinction between those parts of its lifespan in which it was "edited" & those in which it was "assembled".) -- Aesthetic pluralism is fine--Baraka & McKuen side by side, if you like--assuming that's the aim of the magazine, but any editor worth his/her salt is going to have to be ruthless with the rejection slips. Or did you simply mean to say "I don't reject any aesthetic fields out of hand"? I might be more sympathetic to that position, though as it happens I'm usually happiest with poetry journals that are quite specialized in focus (& preferably have some toothy prose in them too). The reason for a firm editorial hand is that one is, as an editor, implicitly acting as an advocate for the poets included, which means providing a compelling vehicle for their work. & that requires that one try as hard as possible to make the magazine consistently good--consistently wonderful if at all possible. Readers will pick and choose among an issue's contents, certainly, but it's the editor's job to make that a pleasurable as opposed to frustrating experience. all best --N ndorward@sprint.ca THE GIG magazine: http://www.geocities.com/ndorward/ 109 Hounslow Ave., Willowdale, ON, M2N 2B1, Canada ph: (416) 221 6865 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 23:09:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: stupid Alan Sondheim sucks idiot moron asshole MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - stupid Alan Sondheim sucks idiot moron asshole Your search - "Alan Sondheim sucks" - did not match any documents. Suggestions: Make sure all words are spelled correctly. Try different keywords. Try more general keywords. 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Alan Sondheim (sondheim@panix.com) Sat, 25 Sep 1999 15:00:07 ... the tomb of lenin where messages touching my asshole i know it will be filled with clutter ... www.tao.ca/fire/nettime/0234.html - 17k - Cached - Similar pages Your search - "Alan Sondheim moron" - did not match any documents. Suggestions: Make sure all words are spelled correctly. Try different keywords. Try more general keywords. _ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 00:41:52 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath and Who's Great Comments: To: BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net In-Reply-To: <3B72FE5B.3B3A@nut-n-but.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "I would prefer to answer the question, who under fifty has written at least one poem of the first rank?" Go for it. Thanks for indulging me. Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Grumman [mailto:BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net] > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 5:19 PM > To: patrick@proximate.org > Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath and Who's Great > > > Trying to determine who under fifty may be great is extremely > hard simply because there are so many poets writing, and it is > so easy to find greatness in one of them which is only borrowed > from another with whose work one is unfamiliar. I would prefer to > answer the question, who under fifty has written at least one > poem of the first rank? A few I can think of (and I'm also > handicapped by not knowing the ages of many poets; that said, I > have to admit that I have definitely lost touch with poets under > thirty; I do know a few, but . . .): Geof Huth, Crag Hill, Jake > Berry . . . I refuse to even say which poems of theirs I consider > first-rank. I'm just answering Patrick's question. > > As for the fifty or over, three just into that bracket that have > written first-rate poems, and that I am willing to deem great are > Jonathan Brannen, Stephen-Paul Martin and Mike Basinski. The living > American poet of whose greatness I am most confident is John M. > Bennett (though that doesn't mean I am confident that the > world will ever agree with me). > > --Bob G. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 21:08:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Leonard Brink Subject: New from Avec Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Semiramis if I Remember (self-portrait as mask) Keith Waldrop The third installment of the trilogy that includes The Locality = Principle (Avec Books, 1995) and The Silhouette of the Bridge (Avec Books, 1997) =A7 Seimramis if I Remember is a quietly remarkable meditation on life and death. Poet Keith Waldrop has seen much of both, and here turns his attention to all that can get lost in living, attempting to evoke and remember what remains. Waldrop's 16th book of poetry offers the reader instants from the whole life of the poet, from his earliest childhood memories and encounters with the possibilities of language to his later years of reflections, dreams, and vigorous struggles with darkness. = With their references to the gothic and a pervasive recognition of absence, these are haunted poems. But whatever their sadness, they are haunted = not simply by thoughts of death but by life, a life that means more because = it passes, because its beauty is what slips away from us. =A7 Praise for Semiramis: Completing a trilogy that includes The Locality Principle and The Silhouette of the Bridge, Waldrop--professor at Brown University, = co-editor of Burning Deck Press and leading light of experimental poetry--deals in premature death, aged death, biblical death...good death... [and] the shifting subjectivity of death. Cumulatively, these absences afford preponderant evidence of life, which, in this booklength series, quietly and purposefully makes for a positive proof: " I look at them/and wonder what it was I was trying to photograph.//I piss into the bowl, The sound reassures me.//...The World begins in the evening. The year begins in /winter." -Publishers Weekly * Praise for the trilogy: "This is one slim volume that emanates a strange magic, haunting, witty aphoristic." -The San Francisco Chronicle (on The Silhouette of the Bridge) "One of the most important writers, translators and publishers of avant-garde literature in our time." -Publishers Weekly (on The Silhouette of the Bridge) "Waldrop writes for those who like to read a poem more than once, not because they didn't understand it the first time, but because it was = such a pleasure. His words just don't dissolve, but hold in the reader's mind and mouth with a delicious aftertaste." -American Book Review (on The Locality Principle) =A7 KEITH WALDROP teaches at Brown University in Providence, Rhode Island, = and, with Rosmarie Waldrop, is editor of the small press, Burning Deck. His Silhouette of the Bridge (Avec Books) received the Americas Award for Poetry for 1997. He has translated, among others, Anne-Marie Albiach, Claude Royet-Journoud, Paol Keineg, Dominique Fourcade, Pascal Quignard, and Jean Grosjean. Besides the trilogy from Avec, recent books include Analogies of Escape, Haunt and the collected collaborations with = Rosmarie Waldrop, Well Well Reality. In 1999 he received the Chevalier des arts = et des lettres from the French Government. Publication Date July, 2001 List Price $12.95; ISBN: 1-880713-26-8; 115pgs. Distributed by Small Press Distribution . For an excerpt and additional information:www.poetrypress.com/avec ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 20:38:40 -0600 Reply-To: Mary Angeline Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mary Angeline Subject: Fw: Robert Kelly MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Angeline" To: "richard.tylr" Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 12:18 PM Subject: Re: Robert Kelly > Richard, > What the hell is wrong with you. Who is Robert Kelly? Should I purchase his > book? I already have too many poetry books? For someone who makes at least > 15 f'ing posts a day on this list I would have thought you had some sense. > READ. Buy the goddamn book & READ IT. why do you need the approval of > someone outside yourself to make a judgement on a major voice in > contemporary letters. Start with "Spiritual Exercises" then "Not This Island > Music" and if you can find it "The Book of Persephone" these are my > personal favorites, but do your own homework. Robert Kelly's poetry and > prose both adhere in my mind to what he names "the discovery of relation". > You dear man must discover that relation for yourself. On the other hand if > you are one of those academic readers who need endless secondary sources in > order to read a goddamn poem then you'll have to wait for Pierre Joris's > anthology of critical work which he is working on presently and should be > out I suppose next year sometime. In the meantime liberate yourself from > this list and do some reading. From: "richard.tylr" > To: "Mary Angeline" > S> ----- Original Message ----- > ent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 6:05 AM > Subject: Re: Robert Kelly > > > > Hi. I cant help but what think people of Robert Kelly: I see one of hios > > books at a local Second Hand Bookshop which I thoought of purchasing > > "REDACTIONS" but I always think I've got too many poetry etc books: is he > > worth a good look? Anyone? Tell me to buy the book....Richard. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Mary Angeline" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 9:44 AM > > Subject: Robert Kelly > > > > > > > Hi list folk. I have an important if not urgent message for Robert Kelly > > can > > > someone please bc this info to me or forward to him? > > > thanks > > > mary > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Joe Amato" > > > To: > > > Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 10:04 AM > > > Subject: CFP Journal of Radical Psychology > > > > > > > > > > given the fascinating discussion hereabouts about hannah wiener's > > writing, > > > > and w/o knowing much about the journal below, i thought this *might* > be > > a > > > > place to submit a more extended piece on same (?)... > > > > > > > > best, > > > > > > > > joe > > > > > > > > > > > > >Journal of Radical Psychology (JRP) Spring 2001 Vol. 2 (1) ISSN: > > > 1561-8978 > > > > > > > > > >http://www.radpsy.yorku.ca > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >DEAR COMRADES! Make illness a weapon > > > > >Jean-Paul Sartre > > > > > > > > > >Anankasia -- to suffer from a surfeit of truth > > > > >Louis N. Sandowsky > > > > > > > > > >Toward a Fractal Metaphor for Liberation of Palestinian Women > > > > >Moshe S. Landsman > > > > > > > > > >Bedside and Philosophically Oriented Clinical Practice > > > > >Shlomit C. Schuster > > > > > > > > > >Race Matters > > > > >Stephanie Austin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > - > > > > >---- > > > > > > > > > >The editors and editorial board like to receive manuscripts on the > > > subject > > > > >radicalism(s) for its upcoming volume: Any question concerning > > radicalism > > > > >seem to us interesting to explore. Some questions to start you > > > > >brainstorming: Is radicalism "fashionable" in the contemporary > > academic > > > > >world? Is radicalism today different from that of the past century? > Is > > > > >radicalism a life-style, a theology, a psychology, a philosophy? What > > > > >fosters radicalism? Can radicalism be negative as well, and if so, > how > > > to > > > > >aviod its negative side? Or write an essay on your favorite radical > or > > > > >other subject > > > > >relevant to radicalism. > > > > > > > > > >For submission details: http://www.radpsy.yorku.ca/Style.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > - > > > > >---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Radical Psychology provides a forum for scholars interested in social > > > > >justice and the betterment of human welfare but dissatisfied with the > > > manner > > > > >in which mainstream psychology has addressed these issues. > > > > >Subjects addressed by the journal include, but are not limited to: > > > > >anti-psychiatry, qualitative methods, political psychology, > > > > >feminism, anti-racism, multiculturalism, radical clinical theory, > > > > >critical theory, critiques of mainstream psychology, and history > > > > >of psychology. > > > > > > > > > >It is the journal of the Radical Psychology Network which seeks > > > > >like-minded psychologists and others to help create a society > > > > >better able to meet human needs and bring about social justice. > > > > >We want to change society's unacceptable status quo and bring > > > > >about a better world. > > > > > > > > > >And we want to change the status quo of psychology, too. We challenge > > > > >psychology's traditional focus on minor reform, because enhancing > human > > > > >welfare demands fundamental social change instead. Moreover, > > > > >psychology itself has too often oppressed people rather than > > > > >liberated them. > > > > > > > > > >No attempt has been made to define the word "radical". We believe > that > > > our > > > > >diversity is our strength; no single approach to psychology has a > > > > >monopoly on the truth nor exclusive claim to the term "radical". > > > > > > > > > >See the JRP web site at http://www.radpsy.yorku.ca for further > > details. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Summer 1999, Vol. 1, Issue 1. > > > > >Anxiety and Depression: A Philosophical Investigation > > > > >Petra von Morstein > > > > >SEE TEMPORARILY AT: > > > > >http://www.geocities.com/centersophon/Anxiety.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > >Dr Shlomit Schuster > > > > >Journal of Radical Psychology > > > > >www.radpsy.yorku.ca > > > > >Managing Editor JRP > > > > >email: counsel@actcom.co.il > > > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reply Reply All Forward Delete Put in > Folder...InboxSent > > > > >MessagesDraftsTrash Can Printer Friendly Version > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > > > >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 00:31:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: "Poets in Film" re-opened with new evidence! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Were Dodie and I the only ones watching "WE" channel last night, Women's Entertainment and the Cinematherapy series came on and they showed Judy Blume's "Forever" from 1978? The film opens with two teen girls headed for a wild party in the Marin headlands and Diana Scarwid is the hostess. Then the party starts with a montage of everyone having fun, smoking cigarettes, pairing off, drinking beers, lots of cocktail party conversation, dancing, (to Cherchez La Femme that old soul hit from the 1970s) and there's this poetry girl sitting there on a couch reciting poetry, the camera cuts back to her, and Dodie screams, "She looks just like Cole Swenson!" Then we both screamed, "It is Cole Swenson!" -- But young, or even younger than she is now. She looks like she's about 15 but even so, even if you weren't watching the screen, that deep enchanting whiskey voice would give her away! The film was made 1978 by John Korty, we kept watching and watching but alas the main plot of the story took over, Stefanie Zimbalist falls in love for the very first time with this dweeb boy who used to play Almanzo in "Little House of the Prairie." Actually Stephanie is pretty good, but we just wanted to see more of Cole!!! PS, in the credits it says, "Poet . . . Cole Swenson." YAY! More poets in the movies!! Hooray for "Cinematherapy"! -- Kevin Killian ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 00:06:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lee ann brown Subject: punk rock Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Dear Ammonides@AOL.COM Some of my favorite band names found on punk rock posters in providence mid-ninties . . . "Cosmic Vulva" "Violent Anal Death" were two I remember Traveling the punk circuit in Europe my favorites were this guy named "Pig Havoc" in England and the first hardcore band in Italy- Syd Migx's "Cheetah Chrome Motherfuckers" which I think is better than "Oedipus and th= e Motherfuckers," I have to agree with your sons - your names are too literary but I think you should right now write poems with those titles "Chairman Meow" or "Crisco" were my band names which you can use but they are probably not right either Allen Ginsberg supposedly named The Blake Babies which works - I'll keep thinking if you write one of those poims. Lee Ann > Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 10:07:00 EDT > From: Ammonides@AOL.COM > Subject: unusual request/punk rock name > > My son and four of his friends are starting a punk rock band (this one ha= s an > oboe in it hooked up to some digital contraption-- they are good, have al= redy > been asked to play with God's Reflex, a pretty well-known band in undergr= ound > circles, at gigs in Chicago-- The Bowl and Metropole). > > They've been trying to come up with a good name, and have been getting in= to > disagreements over the issue. These guys are pretty sophisticated 16-18 y= ear > old Genoa anarchist types: Three names which I've suggested, "Oedipus and= the > Motherfuckers," "Bataille's Thing," and "Fake Pessoa," have all been reje= cted > as "too pompous" or "pushy" (though I know their knowledge of the last tw= o > figures is slight). I told them that I would query the Poetics list for > suggestions and they enthusiastically agreed that I should. > > Any imaginative suggestions (but not "pompous" ones)? Any ideas appreciat= ed. Lee Ann Brown Tender Buttons PO Box 13, Cooper Station NYC 10276 (718) 782-8443 home - (646) 734-4157 cell "Harmless amulets arm little limbs with poise and charm." =8B Harryette Mullen, Trimmings (Tender Buttons) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 00:17:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lee ann brown Subject: NYC Play: Calbi Yau or What the Fuck is String Theory? Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable This weekend, transfer from the Manhattan Bridge Service Changes to Zone Su= b Sub Sub Atomic in: CALABI YAU or What the Fuck is String Theory? @ HERE! Saturday and Sunday August 11th and 12th Take a ride on CALABI YAU, an adventure story/multimedia performance piece about String Theory and the hidden dimensions of the MTA. It's a sub sub sub atomic adventure story based on elements from Brian Greene's _The Elegant Universe_. String Theory is too much to explain in this invite...so get the map from the agents at HERE. Susanna Speier's CALABI YAU Directed by Tony Torn with original music by Stefan Weisman and video by Benton Bainbridge and Luke O'Malley Features: John S. Hall as Stringman; Okwui Okpokwasili as Calabi Yau/Lucy; Pam Karp and Tom Pearl as MTA 1 and 2; Michael McCartney as the Documentary Narrator; James Urbaniak as Gramps. CALABI YAU is part of the American Living Room Series @ HERE Performance Art Caf=E9: 145 Sixth Ave between Spring and Broome Street Saturday and Sunday August 11th and 12th 8:30pm / Ticket: $12 Reservations (212) 647-0202 Attn: Prepaid tix only! Order over the phone or drop by the box office. Lee Ann Brown Tender Buttons PO Box 13, Cooper Station NYC 10276 (718) 782-8443 home - (646) 734-4157 cell "Harmless amulets arm little limbs with poise and charm." =8B Harryette Mullen, Trimmings (Tender Buttons) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 08:24:40 -0700 Reply-To: mcarley@pc.cc.ca.us Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Carley Subject: Re: Phone Scams... Comments: To: JBCM2@aol.com Comments: cc: Cathy.Muse@co.fairfax.va.us, psychoanalytic-studies@sheffield.ac.uk, Psyche-Arts@academyanalyticarts.org, BBlum6@aol.com, flpoint@hotmail.com, ibid1@earthlink.net, moyercdmm@earthlink.net, CMJBalso@aol.com, alphavil@ix.netcom.com, harrysandy@kreative.net, derekvdt@academypo.fss.fss.pvt.k12.pa.us, Amzemel@aol.com, kjohnson@highland.cc.il.us, working-class-list@listserv.liunet.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Whenever I get email warnings like this, I check them out at the Urban Legends web page (http://www.urbanlegends.com) to see if they are true. Here is the page on this one: http://www.urbanlegends.com/ulz/90pound.html. Basically, there is a grain of truth in it, but most of us have nothing to worry about and should not pass on this email. Mike JBCM2@aol.com wrote: > > For what it's worth.... > > Received: from SODA.NSDA.COM > ([63.221.162.199]) > by crs.loc.gov; Thu, 09 Aug 2001 08:55:51 -0400 > Received: by SODA with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) > id ; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 08:50:31 -0400 > Message-ID: <04B6A7E294D1D411AA8900104BCA59F001EEF3@SODA> > From: Tara Spence > To: 'Ed Spence' > Subject: FW: (no subject) > Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 08:50:30 -0400 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > > honey, > read the info below. It's from Julya's husband, JC.. > Unbelievable. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jcjulya@gateway.net [mailto:Jcjulya@gateway.net] > Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 11:23 PM > To: kenshawn@erols.com > Cc: leconia@erols.com; alnfaye@webtv.net; ALMAGRAHAM@aol.com; > THREEGRAHAMGIRLS@aol.com; janicedjackson@msn.com; > eamjones@worldnet.att.net; Cmoore113@aol.com; Annette.Newsome@gsa.gov; > tara@nsda.com; jacqueline_thom@yahoo.com; hardy_jr@msn.com; > DebwahW@aol.com; Jacquelyn.Y.Williamson@verizon.com; > julia_e._yuille@omb.eop.gov > Subject: (no subject) > > I received a telephone call last evening from an individual > identifying himself as an AT&T Service technician who was conducting > a test on telephone lines. He stated that to complete the test I > should touch nine(9), zero (0), the pound sign (#), and then hang up. > Luckily, I was suspicious and refused. Upon contacting the telephone > company, I was informed that by pushing 90#, you give the requesting > individual full access to your telephone line, which enables him/her > to place long distance calls billed to your home phone number. I was > further informed that this scam has been originating from many local > jails/prisons. I have also verified this information with UCB > Telecom, Pacific Bell, MCI, Bell Atlantic and GTE. Please beware. DO > NOT press 9, 0, # for ANYONE. The GTE Security Department requested > that I share this information with EVERYONE I KNOW. If you have > mailing lists and/or newsletters from organizations you are connected > with, I encourage you to pass on this information to them, too. > After checking with Verizon they said it was true, so do not dial > (9), zero (0), the pound sign # and hang up, for anyone. > > PLEASE pass this on to everyone YOU know AND CARE ABOUT -- Michael Carley, M.A. Director of Institutional Research Porterville College 100 East College Ave. Porterville CA 93257 (559) 791-2275 (559) 791-2487 FAX mcarley@pc.cc.ca.us http://www.pc.cc.ca.us/research ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 03:22:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: m&r..I..me..my..mine... the green-peace "I" awards have just been announced...in the life-time achievement poetaster division.....John Ashberry for his verbal assault on the virgin forests of this green...& Eileen Myles, mid-career wordnoexception cap...for her unrelenting energy in the i.me.my.mine avant a head...an urgent call also has gone out...for volunteers to fight fire with fire & at whatever it costs put out those words..99 degrees...1 short of a full deck...Drn... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 10:15:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcella Durand Subject: edit, editors, editing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > In a message dated 8/8/01 9:42:56 AM, > tinaiskingofmonsterisland@HOTMAIL.COM > writes: > > << What I react strongest to is Mr. Bolton's > statements, and Mr. Silliman's. We young > editors don't "get it." We don't know > what the hell we're doing. We're lazy and > we don't know good work. > >> > > To be fair to Ron Silliman, I supect that behind his statement lies a keen > understanding of the marketplace. There is so much poetry out there of > all > kinds, that in order to rise to the surface one must be consistent and > perhaps controversial. A mag that gathers may simply be recording the > zeitgeist. One with a strong editorial point of view--even better, a > point > of view that offends or befuddles lots of people--has a better shot of > "gathering" attention (e.g., L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E). A convincing argument can > be > made, I think, that these days strategy is far more important than good > art. > Anyway, if a particular formulation focuses attention, a general view that > the art is good, or important, or significant, or something along those > lines, will inevitably follow. Of course, however a mag wants to operate > depends on the ambitions of its editors--to present what they consider > quality art (whatever form it takes), or to crack the marketplace. Best, > Bill > > WilliamJamesAustin.com > KojaPress.com > I find "a keen understanding of the marketplace" an interesting term to use. Are poets a "marketplace" to be "cracked"? Is there a "surface" to be "risen to"? "Strategy" is more important than "good art"? (I would like to hear that "convincing argument"...) If someone comes at us with the "right" publication with the "right" editing, then we, as poetic consumers, will consume? Maybe we should do a focus group and a market analysis. Poets, get your credit cards ready! M ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 01:59:54 -0700 Reply-To: max@oingo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Maxwell Subject: The Swell Edit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Forgive me, I=92m not a list member, and only check into the archive erratically to look for event & publication listings, but I was recommended to this discussion, so am trying to pick it up a bit. Did it begin with someone saying that the "product" of a magazine was "only" or "just" or "merely" x? What an ungenerous and flip statement! Sounds like someone has an uncle on his shoulder, as an old friend used to say. It=92s hard for me to say, like Ken Bolton, who is "uninformed". We all see= m a little, and over-informed too, agenbite of inwit and all that. I build taxonomies for a living, so the "positive" advocacy of "systematic" and "consistent" "values" he enjoins seems like so much on-the-job training...what is this job?!... arewriters simply taxi-drivers to some fundamental entity-types that are not fuzzy to the touch? Can I get there from here, will the elegantly formulated proposition be my passport? Explicit prose, formal, consensual =97- of which one species is the editori= al statement =96=96 always feels to me like so many corrected sympathies. Do w= e admire the effort? Does the organized room signal commitment? And what is actual here, the "signaling" or the "commitment"? Does the signal prove the poem? Yikes! Do we need a good summary, because we fear we will never win the poem for the world otherwise? I still think the tacit prospect for the critic is a beautiful argument, an= d that even a critic like Steve Evans, whose formal essays are as courageous as they are programmatic and predictive, is practically an aesthete, in tha= t he prefers a fundamentally abstract architecture of progressive statement t= o the "open work", which cannot demonstrate a doubtless synthesis. It=92s synthesis that=92s the bugaboo, no? I=92m really afraid of it myself, the totalizing ecumenical gesture, the privilege and cruelty of that oversight. But I=92m ready to admit to a certain nominalism, and the ecstacy that I fi= nd in small gathered details, because how do you frame sleep or the snowflake, etc, etc Words and ideas are beautiful, let=92s get lost, me too!=20 And is the "beautiful" still distasteful? Have we argued it away? More than any other word, it=92s "beautiful" that Mac and I get about the Germ. Ha! H= ow often do you hear that word any more? How=92s that for editorial focus! I think the orchid can break kneecaps! I think the right song can stop a soldier in his tracks! and it=92s a certain want of Beauty that we share wi= th our great uncles who began the magazine, and by Beauty I mean an aggressive confluence of lucid attention, improbable arrival and deeply felt surprise. Zizek lisped when he called it "magic moments". Is that liberating? Well, it=92s enthusiastic! The Germ is probably an early Modern magazine. And Mac really values humor, I know that to be true. It=92s "an absolute necessity," I=92ve heard him sa= y.=20 The most outlandish thing I remember from the Third Factory debate oh how long ago was that an editorial stance that signals itself through "pictures and jokes" is a fundamental nothing, an embarrassment. What a fortunate self-promotion for the critic! Is there nothing to a film, a print, an etching? Do we distrust the comic impulse? What of curatorship, demonstration, revelation in context? Go see the Joe Brainard show at once! Read Miekel Bal=92s book on Caravaggio! See Walter Murch=92s new edit of Apocalyse Now and tell me that he has "merely" "gathered" or juxtaposed "content". Then watch Coppola=92s exegetical editorializing in the new Fre= nch plantation scene and tell me that it does not confuse or ruin the film! Sur= e it contextualizes the war, but what what? So does The Nation. I would say that the rookie manifesto of that one scene in relation to the rest of the film is perfectly symmetrical to the relationship between Apex of the M=92s editorial statements and the contributions from their poets. Less than one percent of Apex of the M=92s 900+ pages (six issues) was editorial statemen= t. And Earnest lumpy breath at that! That Mark considers it a singular "that sort of project" which no one has continued may have more to do with a certain era of pitched debate on this list (and the nostalgia for it) than anything else. What about Chain=92s project? Shark, Kenning, Combo, Outlet. There=92s a certain love of discursive statement about. It=92s not over, ev= en if it is often over my head. I still can=92t quite relate Michael Magee=92s pr= eface in Combo 8 to the work of Kristen Gallagher or Rodrigo Toscano, or for that matter, "The Insurgent Word" of Apex 3 to Kevin Killian=92s astonishing Argento poems in Apex 6. The relationship isn=92t synthetic or essential. I= t=92s apposite, accompanying, supplemental. And that=92s okay. There=92s enthusia= sm. There=92s consideration. But in general I come curious, and for the poetry. How do we compare? What carries more force, which is more effective: Henry Green=92s Loving or Christopher Hitchens=92 two part case against Kissinger= in Harpers? Is the effort commensurate? I read both this year, both are essential, they cohabit in me =96=96 are they at war? Am I the synthesis? A= m I an editor? At least one of the lessons in the Germ I know is in tune with that of Sullivan=92s Travels, the workers and roughnecks alive in laughter at the small good and funny film. And I think a single film by Sokurov will keep more folks alive than the entire text of "Pre-Capitalist Economic Formations". I know that Kiarostami=92s Close-Up will make more people ride public transit and vote progressively that the New Sentence will (it took m= e a month and a half to read it!). I think the films love us more, as do the best poems of Edwin Denby and the diary of John Wieners. Predictive synthesis is exhausting, but the Art-That-Loves-You promotes enthusiasm. After I read David Shapiro=92s "18. Ode" in A Man Holding an Acoustic Panel= , I was compelled to clean the house! And I read more magazines than books it=92s true. I like the company. The b= est hands down at the moment are David Larsen and Beth Murray=92s San Jose Manu= al of Style, Jubilat out of UMass, and the brilliant and seductive Cabinet. A little eccentric each, bravo! I=92m not fond of magazines that simply check the weather, take a census, that are inclusive and do what=92s right at the expense of showing us what they care about. Show us! Stick it to me! Stick it in me! Are these the poets? Is that what you=92re talking about? Hell, I= =92d rather be in love. I=92d rather be enthusiastically so! The literature is inconsistent. My best, Andrew Maxwell The Germ/Poetic Research Bureau _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 12:10:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath and Who's Great In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 12:48 PM -0700 8/8/01, George Bowering wrote: >That is kind of true. But there must be some other criterion. >Otherwise, whatsernam Aguilara would be a great singer. Perhaps you could have chosen someone other than a woman of color as the source of your ridicule? Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 16:38:55 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Re: NYC Play: Calbi Yau or What the Fuck is String Theory? In-Reply-To: <200108091454.KAA17215@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 1.3.c What the Fuck is String Theory? String theory attaches itself to the troth that string will tether heart to mind or body to soul. String theorists often save roll so as to keep abuttal of the physical & ephemeral when cloth of breath or heart threatens to depart. Filament may avert the many versions of vital release. Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of lee ann brown > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 12:17 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: NYC Play: Calbi Yau or What the Fuck is String Theory? > > > This weekend, transfer from the Manhattan Bridge Service Changes > to Zone Sub > Sub Sub Atomic in: > > CALABI YAU > or What the Fuck is String Theory? > > @ HERE! > Saturday and Sunday August 11th and 12th > > Take a ride on CALABI YAU, an adventure story/multimedia performance > piece about String Theory and the hidden dimensions of the MTA. It's a sub > sub sub atomic adventure story based on elements from > Brian Greene's _The Elegant Universe_. > > String Theory is too much to explain in this invite...so get the map from > the agents at HERE. > > Susanna Speier's CALABI YAU > > Directed by Tony Torn > > with original music by Stefan Weisman > and video by Benton Bainbridge and Luke O'Malley > > Features: John S. Hall as Stringman; > Okwui Okpokwasili as Calabi Yau/Lucy; > Pam Karp and Tom Pearl as MTA 1 and 2; > Michael McCartney as the Documentary Narrator; > James Urbaniak as Gramps. > > > CALABI YAU is part of the American Living Room Series > @ HERE Performance Art Café: > 145 Sixth Ave between Spring and Broome Street > > Saturday and Sunday August 11th and 12th > > 8:30pm / Ticket: $12 > > Reservations (212) 647-0202 > > Attn: Prepaid tix only! > Order over the phone or drop by the box office. > > > Lee Ann Brown > Tender Buttons > PO Box 13, Cooper Station > NYC 10276 > > (718) 782-8443 home - (646) 734-4157 cell > > "Harmless amulets arm little limbs with poise and charm." > > ‹ Harryette Mullen, Trimmings (Tender Buttons) > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:27:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: plath/suicide MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i agree, Richard, it is an important issue:. "> I think the issue IS important. Richard > Taylor." suicide is an action or response to something. It's a choice and not predetermined by constitution or occupation. I'm not sure it's always the 'weaker' choice but at the same time i don't let my daughter get by by saying 'I use drugs because I'm a teenager' tom bell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 16:08:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Silem Mohammad" Subject: Greatness Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed David Baratier writes: >I believe in the Marianne Moore model for greatness. All of the above >living writers have this in common: few collections out, in each >collection every poem is great. This is fine if that's what you want to go by, but it doesn't seem that helpful in terms of what "great" conveys to most people in everyday usage. It should go without saying, but just for the sake of clarity, it's also important to distinguish between little-G great (as in "Mmm, great coffee" or "Oh yeah, I like Garrett Caples, he's great") and capital-G great (as in "she was the great love of my life" or "Conrad's _Chance_ is a fascinating novel, but not a great one"). Capital-G greatness is plainly what we're concerned with here, and again at the risk of stating the obvious, we can break it down further into a few qualifying categories: 1) Global capital-G. The work or author in question is extremely widely read and disseminated either academically or popularly over long periods of time, preferably centuries. In this category we could place the Koran, Sappho, Dante, Shakespeare, Jane Austen, etc. Texts in this category are influential to the point of monumentalism, both on the works of other writers and on our concepts of literature in general. Greatness so defined is as much a function of canonization and public relations, etc., as of any "intrinsic literary value" in the works (and those scare quotes are intended not so much to debunk the notion of an absolute aesthetic value as to signal the subjective conditions under which such judgments are frequently performed). These are texts likely to be familiar, at least in name, to readers without specialized education. One need not even have read them in order to ascertain the evidence of their greatness: it is practically a material fact, self-evident and self-sustaining. 2) Institutional capital-G. This would include works and authors in the above category, but expand to include those whose influence is constrained within narrower (i.e., purely academic) parameters. Examples: Simonides, John Gower, Felicia Hemans, and Countee Cullen. Note that in some cases, i.e. Hemans, the institutionalization of the author coincides with immense popularity in her own time, but that such popularity is only conditionally relevant to the designation of greatness; what counts is prolonged circulation in a context of historical relevance as defined by specialists. Again, in the case of Cullen, there are at least two levels within this institutional category on which greatness might be gauged: the author's influence with a framework of "minority" literature, and his significance in relation to literary modernism. These levels are of course interrelated, but the important point is that both are determined _historically_: aesthetic considerations are secondary to the process by which lines of influence and positions within a tradition or traditions are drawn after the fact. In other words, the question whether Hemans or Cullen are "good" poets is largely irrelevant to their "greatness" as thus conceived. I'm willing to wager that this is the definitional level most readers on this list would be quickest to revile as cynical and destructive, but it nonetheless represents something like an "objective" measure, in that it reduces the question of greatness to statistically confirmable criteria like syllabus content, PMLA indices, anthologization, etc. 3) Absolute capital-G. Arguably not a category unto itself, but either a) an effect produced or sustained ideologically by the mechanisms of institutionalization outlined above, or b) an effect of "subjective aesthetic response," to borrow Barrett Watten's term, whose exact criteria may be incoherent or inconsistent. Within this definition, Shakespeare or Cullen or Rod McKuen are "great" either because they they effect a certain condition of receptiveness and appreciation in their readers, or because they _are said to do so_. Of course, it matters _who_ is saying they do so. One can draw radically different conclusions about the sort of mystification involved depending on whether one believes the appreciation derived from a given text has its source in the reader's own internal standards of aesthetic value (perhaps derived from a lifetime of reading and evaluating, say), or in the reader's susceptibility to the suggestion of such qualities in the work as would _seem_ to be perceived by the reader according to internal standards but are actually imposed by some other agency (schoolteachers, jacket design, word of mouth). The reason I consider these part of the same level is that both invoke the idea of a metaphysical greatness hovering around or above the object, unreducible to the purely material processes of historical transmission and publicization mentioned in levels 1 and 2. In short, the main problem with this as a proposal for what defines greatness is that it's _not_. It leaves the question squarely in the mind of each reader, unanswerable on the one hand because what one likes is simply what one likes, or on the other hand because what one likes is what one has been told one likes. 4) Socio-pragmatic capital-G. One way of thinking of this level is as a version of the kind of institutional activity described in level 2 broken down into discrete communities of appraisal and consent. Hence, Rosmarie Waldrop would be considered great by a sizeable percentage of a certain community of readers, and Gary Soto by another, and neither one by the other community (on average), and the criteria on either side would be roughly equivalent: Does this writer address the concerns of the literary community with which I feel myself most aligned? Does she produce a substantial body of work that is consistently representative of a more or less consistent set of aesthetic standards as explicitly or implicitly imagined by that community? Is his work distinctive enough in some way to stand out among the works of other members of the community without in so doing rendering the aesthetics of the community invalid? Another way of thinking about it (which may be the same way viewed from the opposite angle) is as a cooperative alliance built upon the subjective aesthetic response model of level 3: readers with given tendencies of aesthetic response find like-minded readers and band together into coalitions. There is bound to be in-fighting and sub-faction formation, of course, but by and large one Language poet or New Formalist or Stegner Fellow or whatever is going to display a considerable amount of consistency in favoring or eschewing a lot of the same texts as others of his/her kind. I think it's pretty clear that no one is going to be happy with this model. It turns the whole question of greatness into one of conformity and limited (yawn) transgression. So where does that leave us? For my money, back at level 1. An author is great if she becomes Great. And as I said, that usually takes centuries, or at least some posthumous period of appreciation. For this reason, debates about what living authors (especially authors under 50!) are Great are always going to be speculation at best. Speculation can be fun, however, so I'm going to say that if any living poets have the smell of greatness about them, Ashbery is certainly one of them. His appeal for many partisans on either side of the divides that gape between the various "scenes," his relative saleability and mainstream publishing status juxtaposed to his origins within an avant-garde, and his widespread anthologization all speak favorably for him. Also, he works within and against tradition in inventive and resonant ways that give his work the feel of being in an intense dialogue (albeit a screwy one) with literary history. He manages to generate an effect of elegant Romantic complexity without resorting to slavish, forced metrical practice. On top of all this, and maybe most importantly, he _appeals_ to a wide number of readers who may know or care nothing for the other factors I've mentioned; someone new to poetry thumbing through a _New Yorker_ might come upon one of his poems and enjoy a painterly rush of bewilderment. Patrick suggested "that a great poet controls the poems they send into the ethos, and while they may have individual early poems or even later ones that appear in journals, in regards to a full length collection only the great poems are published." I'm not at all comfortable with this notion of control, or with fixing on how or how often one publishes as a standard for judgment. What does control over transmission have to do with the greatness of Sappho, Shakespeare, Dickinson? And the whole idea of great poems versus great books seems totally fraught. I'd say, for example, that _Harmonium_ is a great book whose sum of parts adds up to more than one might expect from isolated samples. Why should a great book be any less valid as a marker of its author's achievement than individual poems? (Or vice versa.) In sum, Greatness is just too unstable and corrupt a term to be any use. I propose that we abandon it in favor of Wonderfulness. Just think of all the Wonderful poets you know! Much easier, isn't it? Kasey ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ K. Silem Mohammad Visiting Asst. Prof. of British & Anglophone Lit University of California Santa Cruz _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 16:11:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Silem Mohammad" Subject: Greatness (correction to last post) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed At the end of my last long post I accidentally attributed the following quote to Patrick instead of David: >I offer that a great poet controls the poems they send into the ethos, >and while they may have individual early poems or even later ones that >appear in journals, in regards to a full length collection only the >great poems are published. Again, David Baratier said that, not Patrick. My apologies. Kasey ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ K. Silem Mohammad Visiting Asst. Prof. of British & Anglophone Lit University of California Santa Cruz _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 21:23:56 -0400 Reply-To: Nate and Jane Dorward Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nate and Jane Dorward Subject: Re: edit, editors, editing Comments: cc: Jim Behrle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim--thanks for the clarification. I don't think it especially changes my point. My own policy with _The Gig_ has been "no unsolicited material", but I've had nonetheless to also turn down solicited work sometimes: definitely not fun to do but it seems to me unavoidable & essential to the whole enterprise. -- all best --N Nate & Jane Dorward ndorward@sprint.ca THE GIG magazine: http://www.geocities.com/ndorward/ 109 Hounslow Ave., Willowdale, ON, M2N 2B1, Canada ph: (416) 221 6865 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 22:19:21 -0400 Reply-To: Nate and Jane Dorward Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nate and Jane Dorward Subject: A couple of things MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 1) anyone who has Keith Tuma's Oxford anthology who wants my list of corrections & additions can drop me a line & I'll send a copy. Nothing I'm too embarrassed about, but I've made discoveries since the book went to press, & also found a few small goofs. 2) I thought while I'm at it I'd repeat an occasional offer of mine. _The Gig_ fills out the space at the bottom of the last page with a paragraph of notes on contemporary poetry. Anyone who sends me a note that I use will get a free issue of the magazine. The notes tend to focus on UK poetry (notably Prynne) but that's just because that's the poetry I've been writing on lately (esp. in annotating Keith's book): contributions dealing with any of the US, Canadian &c poetries that concern this list are welcome. Credit is given for contributions. _The Gig_ 9 will appear in a couple of weeks (assuming my laser printer can be induced to start working properly again), so if you want a copy of it (shameless plug here: it'll have Trevor Joyce, Diane Ward, David Chaloner, Ian Patterson, William Fuller, Bill Griffiths & a long poem-report on the Liege conference by Shelby Matthews, plus an essay on Denise Riley by Robin Purves)...then get back to me shortly. Here's the notes that appeared in _The Gig_ 8: For the dedication to Raworth's _Writing_ ("to the moles and to the bats") see Isaiah 2:20. "i have set my face / as a flint" ("South America") is from Isaiah 50:7. The last poem of _Sentenced to Death_ is collaged from phrases from Barthes' _Camera Lucida_. The link between the opening invocation of Heidegger's "The Thing" in R.F. Langley's "Juan Fernandez," the image of the jug, and Defoe's _Robinson Crusoe_, is perhaps Virginia Woolf's essay on Crusoe in The Common Reader (2nd series). "O man for thy sake" in Prynne's _Word Order_ is from the anonymous religious lyric "Woefully arrayed" [the William Cornysh setting of which I highly recommend --ed.]. "A whiff of new-mown hay" is the usual description of the odour of diphosgene, used by the Germans in WWI; presumably "bitter...almond" in the same poem touches on the smell of cyanide (& thus on the use of Zyklon-B in the death-camps?). Peter Riley's _Preparations_ is based, poem by poem, on Blake's _Poetical Sketches_. "Passa la nave mia colma d'oblio / per aspro mare" (quoted in John Riley's "Prelude") is the opening of Petrarch, Rime 189 (the poem behind Wyatt's "My galley, charged with forgetfulness"). In "Czargrad," "la pluie, goutte à goutte" is from Pierre Louÿs's _Songs of Bilitis._ [the notes above deal with allusion-hunting mostly but that needn't be the only topic, of course: I'm especially keen in the case of Prynne to have some of the arcaner specialist jargon & discourses explained clearly. --N] Nate & Jane Dorward ndorward@sprint.ca THE GIG magazine: http://www.geocities.com/ndorward/ 109 Hounslow Ave., Willowdale, ON, M2N 2B1, Canada ph: (416) 221 6865 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 21:15:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Leonard Brink Subject: New From Instance Press MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Habitable World by Beth Anderson 80 pages ISBN 0-9679854-1-2 $10 "Kafka was right, impatience is a form of laziness. Patience, on the = other hand, as demonstrated in Beth Anderson's poems, is a form of = controlled energy, a painstaking, unflappable attention. Anderson has = built The Habitable World slowly and with a steely calm. She is fearless = and will not be hurried. Her poetry, like our world, embodies time. = Reader, if you enter these poems, you will live inside them and they = will live in you." -- William Corbett "With their gorgeous locutions and turns, their heady breath, Beth = Anderson's poems haunt, inhabit, and conjure the world we carry and = contemplate in our daily passage through landscape and language. This = delicate world so disclosed is here made luminous in stunning detail." = -- Peter Gizzi "Beth Anderson writes intellectual lyrics whose smooth, confident = surfaces mask stunning dislocations. It is clear in these accomplished = poems that what is 'habitable' about the world is as much a matter of = the language in which it is presented as it is of the objects, = landscapes, and autobiography that ripple throughout." -- Charles North Available from Small Press Distribution=20 or send a check to: Leonard Brink 327 Cleveland Ave. Santa Cruz, CA 95060 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 00:17:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Re: Jimi Hendrix Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >If anyone has Jimi Hendrix' email address, could they back-channel it to >me? > >Thanks, > >Alan jh324@sfsu.edu I think he's on sabbatical right now. To be safe, CC him at: electricladyland@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 00:28:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Re: Jimi Hendrix In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Its jhendri@deadlegends.tv Geoffrey Gatza editor BlazeVOX2k1 http://vorplesword.com/ -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Alan Sondheim Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 4:38 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Jimi Hendrix If anyone has Jimi Hendrix' email address, could they back-channel it to me? Thanks, Alan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 00:48:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath and Who's Great In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dodie, Christina Aguilara is the whitest looking pop star. More of a sex worker than singer and by no means great, but for a woman of color all she could hope for is substance. This is not trying to dismiss you, Dodie, you know I love you. Best, Geoffrey Geoffrey Gatza editor BlazeVOX2k1 http://vorplesword.com/ -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Dodie Bellamy Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 3:11 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath and Who's Great At 12:48 PM -0700 8/8/01, George Bowering wrote: >That is kind of true. But there must be some other criterion. >Otherwise, whatsernam Aguilara would be a great singer. Perhaps you could have chosen someone other than a woman of color as the source of your ridicule? Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 03:15:25 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: NYC Play: Calbi Yau or What the Fuck is String Theory? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/10/01 3:03:50 PM, leeann@TENDERBUTTONS.NET writes: << String Theory is too much to explain in this invite...so get the map from the agents at HERE. >> Even better, read Brian Greene's very readable The Elegant Universe before seeing the show. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 08:52:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: m&r...we get letters... Ashberry re.... from ZZZZ...how much read..Ashbery..can't...spell...your bitterness...pathetic...ignorance...don't be unhappy...be Poets! (SIC) Hi ZZZZZ..keep on truckin' through the mine field of Ashberry (sic)..brittle french irony with dead Harvard cadence...a one note f..king bore...good livin' & career...blowing s..t thru a straw out of his a-hold..DRn... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 10:42:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rebecca Wolff Subject: Re: editors, editing, etc. In-Reply-To: <20010811041009.E573A189EF@mail.angel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" "I'm not fond of magazines that simply check the weather, take a census, that are inclusive and do what's right at the expense of showing us what they care about. Show us! Stick it to me! Stick it in me!" says Andrew Maxwell; while it continues to amaze me that it is so difficult for anyone to believe that anyone could actually "care about" inclusiveness--or, even more incredible, "care about" (can we just say "like"?) individually the poems that, as different as they are, create the weather. ********** Rebecca Wolff Fence et al. 14 Fifth Avenue, #1A New York, NY 10011 http://www.fencemag.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 03:00:19 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: edit, editors, editing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/10/01 2:51:18 PM, baratier@MEGSINET.NET writes: << 8.) Poems about sex have to be as good as sex. >> Has Pavement Saw ever printed a poem about sex? If so, does that mean it was as good as sex? If so, FOR GOD'S SAKE, SHARE IT!!!!! Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 15:23:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Levitsky Subject: motherhood poetry gospels In-Reply-To: <1729929.996877009611.JavaMail.imail@scorch.excite.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Cassie Lewis: As far as judgements about her parenting etc, it is all about speculation, isn't it? So why then the need for evidence? I have a distaste for holding parents responsible for anything and everything, as though their lives stopped when they had kids, and by extension as though there weren't a bigger social context for Plath's depression. From me, Rachel: Mothers are just women, yes? Yes, in fact I am trying to figure out why so many women, single, lesbian, married etc, my age (35-40--yes I am many) are popping out little ones with great enthusiasm. After having so many choices does it seem like the only one? Or do we do it cuz we can? Or is it an act of mimesis. i don't think women could possibly believe they'd be more valued by the culture as mothers. And speaking of the culture, did any of you read the article in the Business section of yesterday's (Friday, Aug 10) Times about the "Bully Broads"--a group that women execs are sent to by their male bosses when they are deemed too tough. It's like a corporate gulag or AA where you must see and confess the error of your ways in order to begin to progress toward gentleladiness. Is the power of the corporate entity in getting these women to these groups to reform and confess just monetary? (Not to mention the funeral for feminism)(BTW--it takes place in bay area) Lastly on the topic of culture--I just read this book by Rene Girard call The Scapegoat and am wondering if anyone has read it too. He finds in the Gospels the first major text that provides the tools for the culture to begin to move away from violent epiphanies by making them obvious. Is he a catholic or a pacifist? Would love feedback on Girard: Levitsk@attglobal.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 16:07:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: astonishing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - astonishing crushed metal wreckage, blood and flesh interstitial everything caught between mechanisms and components embryonic mewlings, bodies and limbs scattered among stem cells desperate last-minute growth as desiccation sets in, thwarted life oh death along the vector the highway shot into darkness just now i saw her saying goodbye by the side of the road the road was disappearing before and behind her she was walking out into the darkness of the other movie her name was claire danes and she was walking in 1995 oh i was watching, gave her the tiniest stem cell of my gift in 1995 i died holding her picture in my hands she looked at my tiniest gift shortly after with greatest sadness the clock ran backwards but seemed to reverse everything the highway shot into light, life was water-nourished, bodies grew strong, limbs joined into all of us and we drove swiftly and far down the beautiful highway, oh reaching at last our astonishing destination _ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 23:09:46 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "B.E. Basan" Subject: Re: punk rock MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Two high school band names that jump to mind are: Saturated Mind The Public Gays (Three of them were gay too) Ben ----- Original Message ----- From: lee ann brown To: Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 1:06 PM Subject: punk rock Dear Ammonides@AOL.COM Some of my favorite band names found on punk rock posters in providence mid-ninties . . . "Cosmic Vulva" "Violent Anal Death" were two I remember Traveling the punk circuit in Europe my favorites were this guy named "Pig Havoc" in England and the first hardcore band in Italy- Syd Migx's "Cheetah Chrome Motherfuckers" which I think is better than "Oedipus and the Motherfuckers," I have to agree with your sons - your names are too literary but I think you should right now write poems with those titles "Chairman Meow" or "Crisco" were my band names which you can use but they are probably not right either Allen Ginsberg supposedly named The Blake Babies which works - I'll keep thinking if you write one of those poims. Lee Ann > Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 10:07:00 EDT > From: Ammonides@AOL.COM > Subject: unusual request/punk rock name > > My son and four of his friends are starting a punk rock band (this one has an > oboe in it hooked up to some digital contraption-- they are good, have alredy > been asked to play with God's Reflex, a pretty well-known band in underground > circles, at gigs in Chicago-- The Bowl and Metropole). > > They've been trying to come up with a good name, and have been getting into > disagreements over the issue. These guys are pretty sophisticated 16-18 year > old Genoa anarchist types: Three names which I've suggested, "Oedipus and the > Motherfuckers," "Bataille's Thing," and "Fake Pessoa," have all been rejected > as "too pompous" or "pushy" (though I know their knowledge of the last two > figures is slight). I told them that I would query the Poetics list for > suggestions and they enthusiastically agreed that I should. > > Any imaginative suggestions (but not "pompous" ones)? Any ideas appreciated. Lee Ann Brown Tender Buttons PO Box 13, Cooper Station NYC 10276 (718) 782-8443 home - (646) 734-4157 cell "Harmless amulets arm little limbs with poise and charm." < Harryette Mullen, Trimmings (Tender Buttons) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 23:07:48 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "B.E. Basan" Subject: Who is John Godfrey? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, Is there any information out there about John Godfrey, even a preface? I = can't find anything on the internet. Also, can anyone recommend one of = his books, I only have a few poems. Thanks, Ben ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 20:08:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: writing away from I MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Writing away from I Ways of not writing from the self, of not controlling, include focusing = on the body as it is I am, writing as gesture and word not word, and = letting other voices speak with the rhythms I feel we all feel. is a fragment prompted by recent discussions here and the fragment might = lead to some work but I'm also interested in any work that's been done = on ways of writing as ways of knowing. tom bell =3D<}}}}}}}}}****((((((((&&&&&&&&&~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Metaphor/Metonym for health at = http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm Black Winds Press at = http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/blackwin.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:36:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: SYLVIA PLATH & 'EDIT, EDITORS, EDITING' POSTS FUSED INTO ONE, CENTAUR-LIKE (& ROCK BAND) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, since the daug days of August have depleted The List to a two-topic dilemma ("Hmm. Shall I reply to 'Sylvia's Visions'--- OR to 'edit, editing, editamus, editant'? Hm. Sylvia Plath great/non-great? [now there's a tough one! Regis' "Wants to Be A Millionaire" offers 4-choice Sylvia questions!]? magazine editing great/Plath-ish?)--- I thought it might save time if we just fused the two: If Sylvia Plath had lived (Counterfactuality Logic mode kicking in) and were editor of a journal today, what would she say, which glossy would she be edittting, which of the four teenage band members would she recognize as hetero . . . ? which words would see see on her forehead? (and mightn't it have been Great SYLVIA [scorched eternal damination fright wig] who left mischievous Freud-like "Father! Father! Wake up! I am burning in the next room while you sleep!" message on NEWLYWED SONDHEIMS' answering machine!? Nikuko jealous of recent Sylvia-reincarnation marriage?) Similarly all-in-one labor-saving fused answer(s) to above Qs: {drum roll} COLLEGE ENGLISH: THE JOURNAL OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF TEACHERS OF ENGLISH! {Sylvia is EXCUSED from greatness/un-greatness Miss World-style competition for the rest of her eternal damnation, since possessing A NOTE FROM HER DOCTOR ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:55:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath and Who's Great ('OBJECT of ridicule,' Dodie, 'OBJECT of ridicule.' Not 'SOURCE') Comments: To: Dodie Bellamy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > At 12:48 PM -0700 8/8/01, George Bowering wrote: > whatsernam Aguilara Dodie Bellamy wrote: > Perhaps you could have chosen someone other than a woman of color as > the source of your ridicule? > > Dodie ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- CHOOSE ME! CHOOSE ME! (ridicule = 'getting attention'?) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 15:20:03 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "][-n.sert-][" Subject: frag.][rept][ile Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, Beatrice Beaubien , nettime-l@bbs.thing.net, list@rhizome.org, webartery@onelist.com, wryting@julian.uwo.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ----frag.][rept][ile------ a pat.turn.esqu][K][ing. drawn fetal crouches N b][m][ottle][d][s broken. a crowd of 1 : a st][r][and of 2. my. heart. jumps. backwards. w.arm][s][.th N wetness meating. 6 ubers drow.nin.g. a. pl][f][ace. of. no-screen][ed][. dreams. frag.][rept][ilian scal][ding][es. i.c.the.phuture.melt.in.CRT.grooves. .my .blood .is .l][h][ost .& .found. my dream][t][ of bod][ice rollings][y a silver tongue & ][The][ Shining slips my dopp.L.gang.ah! suggest welts i. scrap][e][. N. sluice. N. stick. . . .... ..... net.wurker][M.ollient][ pro.ject.ile x.blooms.x .go.here. xXXx ./. www.hotkey.net.au/~netwurker .... . .??? ....... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:10:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: your world close at hand MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - your world close at hand aget into the mix otime for women to be heard again b there's always room for improvement lhow about some food worth slowing down for gslow down mi like it you'll like it hgoing on coast to coast ware you getting enough lof course you're not qyou're going to feel the blast khis last job just became her first cif only her mother and grandmother could agree on how to celebrate xthese days your eyes need nutrition as well as the rest of your body kfor itch sufferers relief is here tworks all day or all night b kills germs otime for a self-propelled vacuum euser guidance qthe most powerful heavy-duty pickup you can get jmore truck ilike a rock ethese handy little tablets can tackle more grass stains too uit's allergy season again vwhere should you turn for relief uit's a real eye-opener isn't it ka vicious gang of road warriors is terrorizing a town cto take the lives of those who took his aonlyh people on the list no exceptions ksorry sir i didn't realize wwe love to see you smile kladyies no chance iwe're here for a wedding which may become a funeral ta respectable chicken joint eyour world close at hand ytwo more summer blockbusters are heading your way zwe'll supply the blockbusters you supply the popcorn pi never tell anyone what my favorite is, ever hcould be the nooks that hold the melted butter or the crannies sanywhere there's water nyou'll get delivery right away awe do so much to keep skin looking healthy rto help minimize the appearance of scars lhelp keep it that way revery cut every time ooffers a third row of seats that's light and easy to handle than anything out there elike a rock gnew standard in bedroom luxury ia wireless remote to adjust head and seats bthere's no obligation so don't delay dthat's when it all began rdo you believe a man can fly kpeople can't fly like i did ytell me how long you've been head of security here gturn the camera off will you ki looked at consumer ratings and all the features that came with the vehicle pfreedom is calling you rwhat will you find today ndon't miss it uthe cool school event qwishin and hopin and thinkin and prayin and plannin and dreamin ishow them that you care gyou want incredible color ointense color lasting color uincredible color that's incredibly gentle hnothing penetrates deeper xa beauty all your own m anywhere there's water bfor less than you're paying now ewe deliver you save mi haven't even interviewed there zhow can you follow the team if you're flying all over the place lit's wireless that fits cyour world close at hand _ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 00:43:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: sonnet(14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - sonnet(14) the way it works it begins with an equivalence annulled: 0 -> f(x) this refuses to hold the quantity changes such that 0(t) -> f(x)(t+1) so that it becomes necessary to create 0(t) > f(x)(t+n) where n = minimum of 2 so that a surplus continues to exist let the phrase = [U] or universe of travel/travail on the road, in the midst of travel 0 -> 1 so that _now_ t(0) i write _ahead of the game_ which is the game of _textual production_ a series of texts T0, T1, ... Tn therefore i am capable of keeping up the _appearance_ of textual creativity by always writing ahead of myself _ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 11:28:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: m&r...in memory of Hannah Weiner...radiant white.. braille...Eagle A sign language...Eagle A..code of hand..system...is a very... navy semaphore...signaling..send messages.steaming column..pair flags cuneiform...cuneus..stylus...word or syllable...sun baked oven harden court reporter...high speed...keys..easily portable..silent international information signs..1976...bridge lang. barrier... music...music nota...G above middle C...tempo marks..and the slur... hieroglyphics...king narmer...area 'tween horned fig...hathor shorthand..Eagle A proudly presents...Cotton Content Paper..longhand.. universal product code...lines bars...'rings' it up..funct. inv. sys. mathematics...mathematica..laws abstractions generalizations more morse code...iron strip Samuel...series..straight lines..sound of dots computer tape..3/4" or 1"..holes punched..stored..finished..later date international aircraft signals..ground to air..emerg.sand.white.agree a blind french boy grew up remembering....joys of seeing...the braille on the cover translates to Eagle A.....a toi....DRn... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 00:52:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: binary thinking in riposte? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This seems like a "'good'" starting point to me: ">more interested in turning out good writers than > good writing... > > does that get somewhat at what you're saying?... when i use "good," i mean > it in the largest ethical sense possible... we're interested in the whole > enchilada, but for us this includes the disciplinary whole, as paradoxical > as that may sound... and for us this means trying to get away from the > self-saturated, merely expressive individual (though expressing isn't such > a bad thing, neither!)..." and for me it turns on the psychological perspective the Pennebaker article hits on - an ethical writer is one who can express 'we' rather than 'I'? This is something I'm feebly discovering in my old age and I'd be interested in ideas about ways it could be taught. I can see how it happens in the therapeutic arena but I'm not sure if i could give you any sources to look into. I think it also relates to what you said about life experience but the analogy is somewhat muddied as one doesn't have to have lived through a trauma, for example, to help someone else deal with it. Does one need to have lived through WWII (to take a non-controversial event as an example) to write well about 'our' experience of it? tom bell ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 11:27:10 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Scott=20Hamilton?= Subject: Re: unusual request/punk rock name In-Reply-To: <20010809130730.79870.qmail@web10808.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here are mine. I bags 10% royalties if one of these is used: Dead Men Rising New Routines Water Street Exit Smith's Deviation Diving for Air Drive Blind Last Boat Leaving Hoarse Gods This could be a new poetic form, you know. Doesn't Ashbery have a poem of poem titles - is it in And the Stars Were Shining? Cheers Scott ===== For "a ruthless criticism of every existing idea": THR@LL, NZ's class struggle anarchist paper http://www.freespeech.org/thrall/ THIRD EYE, a Kiwi lib left project, at http://www.geocities.com/the_third_eye_website/ and 'REVOLUTION' magazine, a Frankfurt-Christchurch production, http://cantua.canterbury.ac.nz/%7Ejho32/ ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 09:39:35 -0500 Reply-To: archambeau@hermes.lfc.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Archambeau Organization: Lake Forest College Subject: SAMIZDAT ONLINE!! MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hey there, listfolks, I know what you're thinking. It's hot, it's humid, and the academic year is about to start. You're miserable and don't know what to do with your time. You'd like to read a poetry magazine, but lifting those heavy pages seems like too much of an effort. What's a poet to do? Luckily, we here at Samizdat have cooked up a solution: SAMIZDAT IS NOW AVAILABLE ONLINE Don't fret, newsprint afficinados: we're still doing paper editions. But thanks to my genius student web guru Kate Swoboda (editor of Ennui magazine, http://www.ennuimagazine.com/) we're starting to put our full content online at: http://www.samizdateditions.com/ Right now you can get the ROTHENBERG/JORIS issue, and others will follow. Bob Archambeau ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 11:38:07 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: roger.day@GLOBALGRAPHICS.COM Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath and Who's Great Comments: To: BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I always thought a decent period of quietus (like 2 or 3 hundred years) should lapse before we burdened people with the label of greatness. Talk about stymying people half way through... At 09/08/2001 22:21:49, Bob Grumman wrote: # Trying to determine who under fifty may be great is extremely # hard simply because there are so many poets writing, and it is # so easy to find greatness in one of them which is only borrowed # from another with whose work one is unfamiliar. I would prefer to # answer the question, who under fifty has written at least one # poem of the first rank? A few I can think of (and I'm also # handicapped by not knowing the ages of many poets; that said, I # have to admit that I have definitely lost touch with poets under # thirty; I do know a few, but . . .): Geof Huth, Crag Hill, Jake # Berry . . . I refuse to even say which poems of theirs I consider # first-rank. I'm just answering Patrick's question. # # As for the fifty or over, three just into that bracket that have # written first-rate poems, and that I am willing to deem great are # Jonathan Brannen, Stephen-Paul Martin and Mike Basinski. The living # American poet of whose greatness I am most confident is John M. # Bennett (though that doesn't mean I am confident that the # world will ever agree with me). # # --Bob G. # Roger ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 12:48:04 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: FW: Soft Skull Press in danger of Bankruptcy Comments: To: ImitaPo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First, the author of _Fortunate Son_ is found dead, and now Soft Skull, the publisher of the book, is going under. They need your help. Patrick -----Original Message----- FYI for those familiar with Soft Skull Press. "Sander Hicks, CEO, To: Soft Skull" cc: 08/08/2001 11:45 AM Hey all- Soft Skull needs your help! You know our books. We publish authors that speak truth to the controlling forces of our society, that highlight humanity and the importance of resistance. The world has paid us some attention for this. We won the Firecracker Best Independent Press Award in 2000. We've been in the Washington Post and the New York Times. We've had two best sellers. Hell, we've even been on 60 Minutes. We recognize that these are not the truly important things, only measurements of our accomplishments. The truly amazing things happen when no one one's looking, when people are exposed to new ideas and those ideas go off like flashbulbs in their brain. The books Soft Skull Press has published over the past eleven years have had positive effects on people's lives. Now we are facing the very frightening possibility of going under in the next two or three months. We are one more voice against the dominant power structure of our society. And we are in danger of becoming silent. There are ways you can help us out. We're working on planning fundraisers in New York. Plan a fundraiser for us in your town. Throw a party. Get your band to play. Get some poets to read. Show films no one has seen before. Spread the word. In exchange for your trouble we'll give you Soft Skull shirts, books, and a lifetime discount on merch you order from us. We'll help you out in whatever way we can. This is serious. We need your help. We wouldn't be asking if we didn't. Reply to kdroberts@hotmail.com (not sander@softskull.com) or call Mon, Wed, Fri at 212-673-2502. Thanks and take care, Tennessee -- ``Dictatorship would be a heck of a lot easier.'' -George W. Bush, 7.26.01 Sander Hicks CEO Soft Skull Press, Inc. 98 Suffolk Street #3A New York City NY 10002-3366 FAX: 212 673 0787 VOX: 212 673 2502 http://www.softskull.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:06:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cadaly Subject: Re: Who is John Godfrey? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT This John Godfrey? http://hardpress.com/newhp/lingo/authors/godfrey.html "The General Motors Automatic Transmission Overhaul Manual" sounds like a real page turner! Rgds, Catherine Daly cadaly@pacbell.net Hi All, Is there any information out there about John Godfrey, even a preface? I can't find anything on the internet. Also, can anyone recommend one of his books, I only have a few poems. Thanks, Ben ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 18:26:31 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: A couple of things MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Nate I have the deepest respect for the patient and laborious work you and Keith have performed in creating this anthology, but too I must make my note of discord, altho' you have trawled through the books as ever British realities are misrepresented again, if anyone wants a truer account of recent British poetry they can go to www.chidesplay.8m.com where an essay by Andrew Duncan lies waiting, or too to an essay by Jon Corelis somewhere else on the Web. You do not own us, managerial tho' your instincts may be, Britain in reality is a tiny place, about the size of the State of Kansas, but with about 60 million people crammed into it, along with the blandest and most stable class-hegemony in the world. The result is simmering tension, if you don't believe that read Khaled Hakim, read Tim Allen, read Andrew, even, god forbid, read me! We're angry, and with a reason. I say this in a spirit of no ill-will, I know you and I have had our differences, and again I do admire what you and Keith have done: 's a lot better than nuffink. All the Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nate and Jane Dorward" To: Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2001 3:19 AM Subject: A couple of things > 1) anyone who has Keith Tuma's Oxford anthology who wants my list of > corrections & additions can drop me a line & I'll send a copy. Nothing I'm > too embarrassed about, but I've made discoveries since the book went to > press, & also found a few small goofs. > > 2) I thought while I'm at it I'd repeat an occasional offer of mine. _The > Gig_ fills out the space at the bottom of the last page with a paragraph of > notes on contemporary poetry. Anyone who sends me a note that I use will > get a free issue of the magazine. The notes tend to focus on UK poetry > (notably Prynne) but that's just because that's the poetry I've been writing > on lately (esp. in annotating Keith's book): contributions dealing with any > of the US, Canadian &c poetries that concern this list are welcome. Credit > is given for contributions. _The Gig_ 9 will appear in a couple of weeks > (assuming my laser printer can be induced to start working properly again), > so if you want a copy of it (shameless plug here: it'll have Trevor Joyce, > Diane Ward, David Chaloner, Ian Patterson, William Fuller, Bill Griffiths & > a long poem-report on the Liege conference by Shelby Matthews, plus an essay > on Denise Riley by Robin Purves)...then get back to me shortly. > > Here's the notes that appeared in _The Gig_ 8: > > For the dedication to Raworth's _Writing_ ("to the moles and to the bats") > see Isaiah 2:20. "i have set my face / as a flint" ("South America") is > from Isaiah 50:7. The last poem of _Sentenced to Death_ is collaged from > phrases from Barthes' _Camera Lucida_. > > The link between the opening invocation of Heidegger's "The Thing" in R.F. > Langley's "Juan Fernandez," the image of the jug, and Defoe's _Robinson > Crusoe_, is perhaps Virginia Woolf's essay on Crusoe in The Common Reader > (2nd series). > > "O man for thy sake" in Prynne's _Word Order_ is from the anonymous > religious lyric "Woefully arrayed" [the William Cornysh setting of which I > highly recommend --ed.]. "A whiff of new-mown hay" is the usual description > of the odour of diphosgene, used by the Germans in WWI; presumably > "bitter...almond" in the same poem touches on the smell of cyanide (& thus > on the use of Zyklon-B in the death-camps?). > > Peter Riley's _Preparations_ is based, poem by poem, on Blake's _Poetical > Sketches_. > > "Passa la nave mia colma d'oblio / per aspro mare" (quoted in John Riley's > "Prelude") is the opening of Petrarch, Rime 189 (the poem behind Wyatt's "My > galley, charged with forgetfulness"). In "Czargrad," "la pluie, goutte à > goutte" is from Pierre Louÿs's _Songs of Bilitis._ > > > [the notes above deal with allusion-hunting mostly but that needn't be the > only topic, of course: I'm especially keen in the case of Prynne to have > some of the arcaner specialist jargon & discourses explained clearly. --N] > > > Nate & Jane Dorward > ndorward@sprint.ca > THE GIG magazine: http://www.geocities.com/ndorward/ > 109 Hounslow Ave., Willowdale, ON, M2N 2B1, Canada > ph: (416) 221 6865 > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 19:14:33 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Randolph Healy Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath and Who's Great ('OBJECT of ridicule,' Dodie, 'OBJECT of ridicule.' Not 'SOURCE') MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here in Ireland we have a promising candidate in Ronan Keating, lead singer with a boy band before he went solo. Our benevolent government, as part of its millennium celebrations, commissioned him to write a Millennium Song. The assignment proved too weighty for him and the song never materialised, to the considerable embarrassment of all concerned. He's white and male too. best Randolph ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey Jullich" To: Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 8:55 PM Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath and Who's Great ('OBJECT of ridicule,' Dodie, 'OBJECT of ridicule.' Not 'SOURCE') > > At 12:48 PM -0700 8/8/01, George Bowering wrote: > > > whatsernam Aguilara > > Dodie Bellamy wrote: > > > Perhaps you could have chosen someone other than a woman of color as > > the source of your ridicule? > > > > Dodie > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- > > CHOOSE ME! CHOOSE ME! (ridicule = 'getting attention'?) > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 13:48:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: punk for beginners Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed someone wrote: My son and four of his friends are starting a punk rock band No, they're not. With the wealth of edutainment pieces now available on the (more or less) simultaneous socio-political phenomena of punk, more and more kids are figuring out what a damned proposition "starting a punk rock band" is. KENNING | a newsletter of contemporary poetry poetics & nonfiction writing | _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 15:15:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Re: edit, editors, editing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed David Baratier wrote: >As an editor, I've never pushed for large sales based names. The >opportunity has arose to publish central figures in 2nd generation NY >school, Language poetry, Beat, & other movements, but to publish dribble >based on sales or gaining “cultural capital” is a horseshit notion based >on short term gain and lack of marketing abilities. Much of this editorial conversation has focused on an editor's job of rejecting poets. Some have written about how central a process it is, how ruthless they are in rejecting work, and how, really, that is the only job of an editor. Why did you start your magazine, editor? To say "no" or "yes?" Does any reader care, or know, who an editor has said "no" to? Should magazines take a page to list the names of poets who's work didn't make the cut, underlining this crucial editorial role? Sending rejections, when done, should not be done with relish, or with the attitude: "You have not earned a space in my magazine, little poet, come back in 6 months." Monkeys can be trained to slip rejection letters into envelopes, lick them shut and drop them in the mail. No editor shows their mettle saying "no." It's odd, in David's statement to say, "We could have had some famous poets, but what they sent us sucked." Or "expect to be rejected at least one time." No reader of magazines has posted to this list, "I admire magazine X and magazine Y because they really reject a lot of poets, good for them. I hear they rejected John Ashbery, Maya Angelou and Jim Behrle. Hooray." And if a poet should expect to be rejected "at least one time" is that about the poet's work? There's no poet out there who might just have enough going on to break through the first time? OK, I'm being flip, I haven't had any coffee yet. But c'mon. Calling myself an editor doesn't automatically make me the authority on all American poetries. And so, yeah, I'm creating a weather report. This magazine has been a very personal project: to learn more about what's out there, to be open to more work, and to see if it moves me or doesn't. The magazine speaks for itself, and I'm lucky to be on the web and have as much space as I want. But when the editor of a magazine becomes more important than the content, watch out. --JB canwehaveourballback.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 16:03:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: impurity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - impurity inviolate storm inveterate / imperative / it was somewhere among these: the text that was to come - this is on the edge of it - it's on the tip of my tongue - it never arrived - it's out there - calling forth the text - it should have appeared, "put in an appearance" - i remember it was particularly short - terse - aphoristic - there was a sentence or two - located among those words - something i simply "can't remember" - i'm leaving you this - leaving the remnant - leaving it behind (never mind that i won't forget it - that it will remain with me - that it might yet "put in that appearance") everything is full of doubt but something/someone is required for its expression - inconceivable ? indefinite ? insipid short work - doesn't gnaw in the slightest ? (thought of this in fact, something so bland as to be nonexistent) invisible ? it was there, bland, insipid, something to fill a space, almost present - no, fully present, too sweet, stomach slightly queasy, easy "on the way down" it should have been more - should have said something you'd remember - should have been up to "the usual standards" - those "in-" "im-" insertions - impeccable ? innocuous ? impurity ? _ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 16:06:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Greatness In-Reply-To: from "K.Silem Mohammad" at Aug 10, 2001 04:08:33 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to Kasey for his WONDERFUL post on genius. I'm in complete agreement so can offer nothing in the way of explication but instead pass along Corso's complimentary poem, "From Another Room": FROM ANOTHER ROOM Dumb genius blows feeble breath into my windowless room He -- the sagacious mute rap-tapping a code or doom -- the drunkard punched the wall to have his storm! Through the crack! Through the crack! My feast was in the easy blood that flowed. Not a great poem, but a wonderful one. That first linebreak is a doosy, and has any every used exclamation points to better comic purpose than Corso, here and elsewhere ("Dialogue - 2 Dollmakers" for instance)? Dumb Genius Blows! -m. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 17:08:45 -0400 Reply-To: BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath and Who's Great MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I always thought a decent period of quietus (like 2 or 3 hundred > years) should lapse before we burdened people with the label of > greatness. Talk about stymying people half way through... Roger Day But there just might be people who would enjoy, or at least be relieved, to be called great. Why should only sports stars have halls of fame, and movie stars handprints on Hollywood Blvd.? The question of how much time it should take properly to evaluate a poet is an interesting one, though. It seems to me there are only two time-bound considerations: (1) how long should it take a sensitive intelligent auditor to become sufficiently familiar with a superior poet's work to appreciate it? and (2) how long should it take for poetry readers to be able to give proper credit to a poet (by ascertaining who, if anyone, he may have been merely a passive copier of). I would guess ten years for (1); perhaps 40 or 50 years for (2), but only 20 for someone intelligent whose life's work was the history of poetry and who therefore truly investigated who was writing what during the given poet's career. In the case of John M. Bennett, it probably took me four or five years to begin appreciating his work after I started reading it, and another two to appreciate it enough to rate him as high as I do. That's not ten years, but I had to put in five to ten years with other work to appreciate poetry like his to be able to even begin appreciating his. On the other hand, I wasn't concentrating on his work. Hence, my (extreme) guess that it took me ten years to go from not being able to appreciate his work at all to being able to appreciate it enough to recognize it as first-rate--assuming Bennett was not simply passively doing spin-offs of some much better poet's work. I've known his work about fifteen years now, and known the past thirty years of poetry in English fairly well--well enough to be pretty sure he's an original, but not positive. But all is vague. I can't say I'm as sure of Bennett's greatness as I am of Wordsworth's. While in this thread, I have to say I've never read or heard of a colleciton of poems, every one of which was great! I think it would be very hard to make a collection of ANY poet's work with more than twenty poems in it, all of which were great. --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 17:15:16 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: edit, editors, editing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/10/01 3:04:41 PM, MDurand@PRIMEDIASI.COM writes: << > In a message dated 8/8/01 9:42:56 AM, > tinaiskingofmonsterisland@HOTMAIL.COM > writes: > > << What I react strongest to is Mr. Bolton's > statements, and Mr. Silliman's. We young > editors don't "get it." We don't know > what the hell we're doing. We're lazy and > we don't know good work. > >> > > To be fair to Ron Silliman, I supect that behind his statement lies a keen > understanding of the marketplace. There is so much poetry out there of > all > kinds, that in order to rise to the surface one must be consistent and > perhaps controversial. A mag that gathers may simply be recording the > zeitgeist. One with a strong editorial point of view--even better, a > point > of view that offends or befuddles lots of people--has a better shot of > "gathering" attention (e.g., L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E). A convincing argument can > be > made, I think, that these days strategy is far more important than good > art. > Anyway, if a particular formulation focuses attention, a general view that > the art is good, or important, or significant, or something along those > lines, will inevitably follow. Of course, however a mag wants to operate > depends on the ambitions of its editors--to present what they consider > quality art (whatever form it takes), or to crack the marketplace. Best, > Bill > > WilliamJamesAustin.com > KojaPress.com > I find "a keen understanding of the marketplace" an interesting term to use. Are poets a "marketplace" to be "cracked"? Is there a "surface" to be "risen to"? "Strategy" is more important than "good art"? (I would like to hear that "convincing argument"...) If someone comes at us with the "right" publication with the "right" editing, then we, as poetic consumers, will consume? Maybe we should do a focus group and a market analysis. Poets, get your credit cards ready! M >> Sorry it has taken me so long to reply. Busy busy. At the risk of stroking the obvious, let me put it this way. We live in an age of specialization, not only in literature but in nearly every field of human endeavor. Perhaps it has always been so, since the "beginning," waiting only for the accumulation of knowledge, i.e., the introduction of difference--something that must have occurred veerrry early in man's history. Charles Bernstein's "Writing and Method," whatever else it intends, serves as an excellent overview of specialization within the realms of philosophy, literature, and the systemic power of writing in general. Authors and editors with a distinct point of view, an "identity," have a better shot not only at solidfying an audience base, but at posterity as well. As far as I can tell, most of the mags from our past that have stood the test of time-- thus far--utilized this strategy, at least in their initiation, e.g., BLAST, The Objectivist, L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E, various political journals categorized as liberal, conservative, socialist, etc., etc. Aesthetics escapes neither politics nor the marketplace which are always twined together in any event, and that includes poets, poems, professors, publishers, critics, and all the rest involved in the intellectual economy, the distribution and preservation of intellectual product. Canny specialization makes movement through the marketplace, any marketplace, that much easier. None of this diminishes the love of art, the value of art, the desire to make art of any kind. Nothing in my original post suggests it did. Nor is there any overt suggestion that I prefer either journals that "gather" (perhaps more democratic), or those that practice exclusionary tactics for the sake of processing a clear identity. It seems clear to me that without specialization, we wouldn't have 19th century British Romanticism, symbolism, impressionism, expressionism, surrealism, Futurism, Modernism, and on and on. It is quite possible that we wouldn't have a literary history at all, at least in the sense of something that evolves. Of course if an editor's strong point of view is identical to that of a hundred other mags so inclined, that probably won't work either. As for the term "good," unless we're referring to civic virtue which might evince some objective standard (at least a consensus), the term is awfully subjective in the area of aesthetics (which creates standards only to break them, which is "good" in my view). In art, it is probably true that the adjective "good" indicates an objectification only when it is applied to work that has survived. ARTWORK-->unique enough to pass the test of time-->GOOD. That middle part is strategic, if anything is. As a sloppy Romantic myself, I admire your idealism. May the texts that are you and I survive somehow, somewhere. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 17:35:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: editing beauty Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Rebecca Wolff writes: while it continues to amaze me that it is so difficult for anyone to believe that anyone could actually "care about" inclusiveness--or, even more incredible, "care about" (can we just say "like"?) individually the poems that, as different as they are, create the weather. And I write: Here here! Andrew's post begs the question: can a census be taken SIMPLY? Obviously not. Which provides one with the responsibility to explicitly divulge the means ... the ends taking care of itself in most cases. Which brings us back to "beauty" (is this the last resort of this thread? in which case, I'm about to totally reconsider Silliman's post) -- What, Andrew, is the relation between beauty and ethics? Patrick KENNING | a newsletter of contemporary poetry poetics & nonfiction writing | ||||||||||||||||||||www.durationpress.com/kenning|||||||||||||||||||| _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 00:04:49 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CHANGE TO THE SUB VOICIVE PROGRAMME Lisa Raphals is returning to USA earlier than anticipated and the svp programme is changing accordingly. The advertised reading by Lisa and Will Rowe at the beginning of September 2001 will NOT happen; and no svp event is planned for that day Lisa Raphals will read on Tuesday 21st August 2001 at Betsey Trotwood public house in Farringdon Rd, London opposite the Guardian building at 8 pm It is realised this change may be awkward but please do turn out to support the series and to see Lisa who is a fascinating writer POETRY AND MOVEMENT There is a series of 5 workshops on POETRY AND MOVEMENT at Chisenhale Dance Space, near Mile End, this autumn - Wednesday evenings on 3 Oct 2001, 10 Oct 2001, 24 Oct 2001, 7 Nov 2001 and 5 December 2001. Times to be announced Participation in the workshops themselves is by invitation; but others who wish to attend as audience are more than welcome; and they will also be welcome to join in the discussions which we hope will follow the workshops themselves Those involved include Lawrence Upton, Jennifer Pike and Rory McDermott - others will be announced when they have confirmed Some issues we hope to address: visual texts as notation; performance decision-making; the text as performance environment and the creation and modification of space by image projection; the performance space as text; the performing figure as textual element + masks + costume - feedback across genres; movement implied in still images; gesture as a means of generating or modifying utterance; movement-utterance feedback / generation. Colour. Animation. --------------------------------------------------- http://www.crosswinds.net/~subvoicivepoetry/ -------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 12:07:30 -0500 Reply-To: archambeau@hermes.lfc.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Archambeau Organization: Lake Forest College Subject: Re: edit, editors, editing Comments: To: Nate and Jane Dorward MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Re: editing -- here's a link to an editorial I wrote for Samizdat #7, in which I ruminate a bit about the editing of anthologies. Most f it holds for journals, too, I think: http://www.samizdateditions.com/issue7/editorial.html Robert Archambeau ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 23:58:19 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Re: Greatness In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Kasey for sharing this. After your careful qualifications (!), you finally get to the following: "So where does that leave us? For my money, back at level 1. An author is > great if she becomes Great. And as I said, that usually takes > centuries, or > at least some posthumous period of appreciation. For this reason, debates > about what living authors (especially authors under 50!) are Great are > always going to be speculation at best. Speculation can be fun, > however, so > I'm going to say that if any living poets have the smell of > greatness about > them, Ashbery is certainly one of them. His appeal for many partisans on > either side of the divides that gape between the various "scenes," his > relative saleability and mainstream publishing status juxtaposed to his > origins within an avant-garde, and his widespread anthologization > all speak > favorably for him. Also, he works within and against tradition > in inventive > and resonant ways that give his work the feel of being in an intense > dialogue (albeit a screwy one) with literary history. He manages to > generate an effect of elegant Romantic complexity without resorting to > slavish, forced metrical practice. On top of all this, and maybe most > importantly, he _appeals_ to a wide number of readers who may know or care > nothing for the other factors I've mentioned; someone new to > poetry thumbing > through a _New Yorker_ might come upon one of his poems and enjoy a > painterly rush of bewilderment." This is exactly what I was looking for. A commitment. I was looking exactly for speculation, commitment, something. I am aware of the conditions under which people place the word "great". "Great" is ironically one oppressed word (but perhaps only in these parts). What I am still most amazed by is the absolute fear of this by some and the complete and total rejection of this by others. Some live in fear and some live in denial. I am somewhat ashamed to admit I'm somewhat in fear and somewhat in denial. Thanks for embracing reality. Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of K.Silem Mohammad > Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 7:09 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Greatness > > > David Baratier writes: > > >I believe in the Marianne Moore model for greatness. All of the above > >living writers have this in common: few collections out, in each > >collection every poem is great. > > This is fine if that's what you want to go by, but it doesn't seem that > helpful in terms of what "great" conveys to most people in everyday usage. > > It should go without saying, but just for the sake of clarity, it's also > important to distinguish between little-G great (as in "Mmm, great coffee" > or "Oh yeah, I like Garrett Caples, he's great") and capital-G > great (as in > "she was the great love of my life" or "Conrad's _Chance_ is a fascinating > novel, but not a great one"). > > Capital-G greatness is plainly what we're concerned with here, > and again at > the risk of stating the obvious, we can break it down further into a few > qualifying categories: > > 1) Global capital-G. The work or author in question is extremely widely > read and disseminated either academically or popularly over long > periods of > time, preferably centuries. In this category we could place the Koran, > Sappho, Dante, Shakespeare, Jane Austen, etc. Texts in this category are > influential to the point of monumentalism, both on the works of other > writers and on our concepts of literature in general. Greatness > so defined > is as much a function of canonization and public relations, etc., > as of any > "intrinsic literary value" in the works (and those scare quotes > are intended > not so much to debunk the notion of an absolute aesthetic value > as to signal > the subjective conditions under which such judgments are frequently > performed). These are texts likely to be familiar, at least in name, to > readers without specialized education. One need not even have > read them in > order to ascertain the evidence of their greatness: it is practically a > material fact, self-evident and self-sustaining. > > 2) Institutional capital-G. This would include works and authors in the > above category, but expand to include those whose influence is constrained > within narrower (i.e., purely academic) parameters. Examples: Simonides, > John Gower, Felicia Hemans, and Countee Cullen. Note that in some cases, > i.e. Hemans, the institutionalization of the author coincides with immense > popularity in her own time, but that such popularity is only conditionally > relevant to the designation of greatness; what counts is prolonged > circulation in a context of historical relevance as defined by > specialists. > Again, in the case of Cullen, there are at least two levels within this > institutional category on which greatness might be gauged: the author's > influence with a framework of "minority" literature, and his > significance in > relation to literary modernism. These levels are of course interrelated, > but the important point is that both are determined _historically_: > aesthetic considerations are secondary to the process by which lines of > influence and positions within a tradition or traditions are > drawn after the > fact. In other words, the question whether Hemans or Cullen are "good" > poets is largely irrelevant to their "greatness" as thus conceived. I'm > willing to wager that this is the definitional level most readers on this > list would be quickest to revile as cynical and destructive, but it > nonetheless represents something like an "objective" measure, in that it > reduces the question of greatness to statistically confirmable > criteria like > syllabus content, PMLA indices, anthologization, etc. > > 3) Absolute capital-G. Arguably not a category unto itself, but either a) > an effect produced or sustained ideologically by the mechanisms of > institutionalization outlined above, or b) an effect of "subjective > aesthetic response," to borrow Barrett Watten's term, whose exact criteria > may be incoherent or inconsistent. Within this definition, Shakespeare or > Cullen or Rod McKuen are "great" either because they they effect a certain > condition of receptiveness and appreciation in their readers, or because > they _are said to do so_. Of course, it matters _who_ is saying > they do so. > One can draw radically different conclusions about the sort of > mystification involved depending on whether one believes the appreciation > derived from a given text has its source in the reader's own internal > standards of aesthetic value (perhaps derived from a lifetime of > reading and > evaluating, say), or in the reader's susceptibility to the suggestion of > such qualities in the work as would _seem_ to be perceived by the reader > according to internal standards but are actually imposed by some other > agency (schoolteachers, jacket design, word of mouth). The reason I > consider these part of the same level is that both invoke the idea of a > metaphysical greatness hovering around or above the object, unreducible to > the purely material processes of historical transmission and publicization > mentioned in levels 1 and 2. In short, the main problem with this as a > proposal for what defines greatness is that it's _not_. It leaves the > question squarely in the mind of each reader, unanswerable on the one hand > because what one likes is simply what one likes, or on the other hand > because what one likes is what one has been told one likes. > > 4) Socio-pragmatic capital-G. One way of thinking of this level is as a > version of the kind of institutional activity described in level 2 broken > down into discrete communities of appraisal and consent. Hence, Rosmarie > Waldrop would be considered great by a sizeable percentage of a certain > community of readers, and Gary Soto by another, and neither one > by the other > community (on average), and the criteria on either side would be roughly > equivalent: Does this writer address the concerns of the literary > community > with which I feel myself most aligned? Does she produce a > substantial body > of work that is consistently representative of a more or less > consistent set > of aesthetic standards as explicitly or implicitly imagined by that > community? Is his work distinctive enough in some way to stand out among > the works of other members of the community without in so doing rendering > the aesthetics of the community invalid? Another way of thinking about it > (which may be the same way viewed from the opposite angle) is as a > cooperative alliance built upon the subjective aesthetic response model of > level 3: readers with given tendencies of aesthetic response find > like-minded readers and band together into coalitions. There is > bound to be > in-fighting and sub-faction formation, of course, but by and large one > Language poet or New Formalist or Stegner Fellow or whatever is going to > display a considerable amount of consistency in favoring or > eschewing a lot > of the same texts as others of his/her kind. I think it's pretty > clear that > no one is going to be happy with this model. It turns the whole > question of > greatness into one of conformity and limited (yawn) transgression. > > So where does that leave us? For my money, back at level 1. An author is > great if she becomes Great. And as I said, that usually takes > centuries, or > at least some posthumous period of appreciation. For this reason, debates > about what living authors (especially authors under 50!) are Great are > always going to be speculation at best. Speculation can be fun, > however, so > I'm going to say that if any living poets have the smell of > greatness about > them, Ashbery is certainly one of them. His appeal for many partisans on > either side of the divides that gape between the various "scenes," his > relative saleability and mainstream publishing status juxtaposed to his > origins within an avant-garde, and his widespread anthologization > all speak > favorably for him. Also, he works within and against tradition > in inventive > and resonant ways that give his work the feel of being in an intense > dialogue (albeit a screwy one) with literary history. He manages to > generate an effect of elegant Romantic complexity without resorting to > slavish, forced metrical practice. On top of all this, and maybe most > importantly, he _appeals_ to a wide number of readers who may know or care > nothing for the other factors I've mentioned; someone new to > poetry thumbing > through a _New Yorker_ might come upon one of his poems and enjoy a > painterly rush of bewilderment. > > Patrick suggested "that a great poet controls the poems they send into the > ethos, and while they may have individual early poems or even later ones > that appear in journals, in regards to a full length collection only the > great poems are published." I'm not at all comfortable with this > notion of > control, or with fixing on how or how often one publishes as a > standard for > judgment. What does control over transmission have to do with > the greatness > of Sappho, Shakespeare, Dickinson? And the whole idea of great > poems versus > great books seems totally fraught. I'd say, for example, that _Harmonium_ > is a great book whose sum of parts adds up to more than one might expect > from isolated samples. Why should a great book be any less valid as a > marker of its author's achievement than individual poems? (Or > vice versa.) > > In sum, Greatness is just too unstable and corrupt a term to be > any use. I > propose that we abandon it in favor of Wonderfulness. Just think > of all the > Wonderful poets you know! > > Much easier, isn't it? > > Kasey > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > K. Silem Mohammad > Visiting Asst. Prof. of British & Anglophone Lit > University of California Santa Cruz > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 14:26:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Broder, Michael" Subject: Ear Inn Readings--August 2001 UPDATE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The Ear Inn Readings Saturdays at 3:00 326 Spring Street New York City FREE For the summer, we are experimenting with an Open Mike at the Ear Inn. You may read one poem of up to one page in length. Please see Michael Broder at the Ear Inn at 2:45 on Saturday to sign up for the Open Mike. August 18 Catherine Daly, Rachel Levitsky plus open August 25 Denise LaCongo, Corie Herman plus open The Ear Inn Readings Michael Broder and Jason Schneiderman, Directors Martha Rhodes, Executive Director Patrick Donnelly, Lisa Freedman, Kathleen Krause, Coordinating Committee Members The Ear Inn is one block north of Canal Street about as far west as you can go. The closest trains are the 1-9 to Canal Street @ Varick, the A to Canal Street @ Sixth Ave, or the C-E to Spring Street@ Sixth Ave. For additional information, contact Michael Broder or Jason Schneiderman at (212) 246-5074. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 00:17:35 +0000 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: final call, postmark 8/15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Annual Transcontinental Poetry Award by Pavement Saw Press Each year Pavement Saw Press will seek to publish at least one book of poetry and/or prose poems from manuscripts received during this competition. Selection is made anonymously through a competition that is open to anyone who has not previously published a volume of poetry or prose. The author receives $1500 and copies. The judge of the competition is David Bromige. Previous judges have included Bin Ramke and Howard McCord. All poems must be original, all prose must be original, fiction or translations are not acceptable. Writers who have had volumes of poetry and/or prose under 40 pages printed or printed in limited editions of no more than 500 copies are eligible. Submissions are accepted during the months of June, July, and until August 15th. Entries must meet these requirements: 1. The manuscript should be at least 48 pages and no more than 64 pages in length. 2. A cover letter which includes a brief biography, the book's title, your name, address, and telephone number, your signature, and, if you have e-mail, your e-mail address. It should also include a list of acknowledgments for the book. 3. The manuscript should be bound with a single clip and begin with a title page including the book's title, your name, address, and telephone number, and, if you have e-mail, your e-mail address. Submissions to the contest are judged anonymously. 4. The second page should have only the title of the manuscript. There are to be no acknowledgments or mention of the author's name from this page forward. 5. A table of contents should follow the second title page. 6. The manuscript should be paginated, beginning with the first page of poetry. 7. There should be no more than one poem on each page. The manuscript can contain pieces that are longer than one page. Your manuscript should be accompanied by a check in the amount of $15.00 (US) made payable to Pavement Saw Press. All US contributors to the contest will receive at least one book provided a self addressed 9 by 12 envelope with $1.60 postage attached is provided. Add appropriate postage for other countries. For acknowledgment of the manuscripts arrival, please include a stamped, self-addressed postcard. For notification of results, enclose a SASE business size envelope. A decision will be reached in September. Do not send the only copy of your work. All manuscripts will be recycled, and individual comments on the manuscripts cannot be made. Manuscripts and correspondence should be sent to: Pavement Saw Press Transcontinental Award Entry P.O. Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 Last year two books were published. One chosen by the judge (who won publication and monetary prize) and one by the editor (whose book was published with a royalty contract). Submissions are accepted during the months of June, July, and postmarked until August 15th only. http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 02:43:05 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: FW: Giuliani's War on Street Artists (fwd) Comments: To: ImitaPo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Giuliani Wants to End 1st Amend Rights in NYC by Robert Lederman On the same day he announced the resumption of toxic spraying for West Nile Virus, Mayor Giuliani's lawyers claimed they will attempt to change a fundamental NYC law in retaliation for street artists winning their second Federal lawsuit concerning First Amendment rights on NYC streets. The law in question was passed in 1982 by the NY City Council granting book vendors, authors and newspaper publishers an exemption from any licensing or permit requirement based on the freedom of speech clause in the U.S. and NY State Constitutions. Two Federal lawsuits, Lederman et al v City of New York/ Bery et al v City of New York decided in 1996 and Lederman et al v Giuliani decided in 2001 [see below] extended the licensing/permit exemption to street artists. In order to overcome these Federal rulings the Giuliani administration would have to convince the NY City Council to revoke the 1982 law. What this would result in is a complete elimination of the right to sell, give away or even display art, books, leaflets and newspapers on the street or within 350' of any park without first obtaining permission from the Mayor. Even making a speech or holding a protest would require a permit. Such a new law could not be applied just to street artists without violating the 14th Amendments equal protection clause. Among the changes that would be required to make the new law pass Constitutional scrutiny would be to apply it to tens of thousands of newspaper vending boxes that are located on street corners and around parks throughout the City. These steel and plastic boxes represent a substantial part of the distribution system for the NY Times, Post, Daily News, Newsday, NY Press, Village Voice, Wall Street Journal and for more than 20 free community papers. None require a license, fee or getting permission from the City. The NYC Department of Parks has already created a law requiring any gathering of 20 or more persons for whatever reason to obtain a permit. The law applies to rallies, discussion groups, sports activities or even a silent prayer meeting. Not surprisingly, it is selectively enforced, most usually against activists, teenagers and minority groups. Media coverage of the street artist ruling follows: NY Times August 11, 2001 Judge Bars Permit Requirement for Art Vendors By KATHERINE E. FINKELSTEIN Photo/Nancy Siesel/The New York Times Robert Lederman, at the microphone, is among the artists who sued to challenge the city's rule requiring permits to sell works outside the Metropolitan Museum of Art. A federal judge has ruled that the Giuliani administration's requirement that art vendors in parks have permits is a violation of the city code, which unconditionally prohibits mandatory licensing for those who sell art and books. The decision, issued Aug. 7 by Judge Lawrence M. McKenna of United States District Court in Manhattan, did not delve into whether the city's actions violated the artists' constitutional right to free speech. But in multiple lawsuits and legal motions that the artists have won in state and federal courts, they have argued that their rights to free speech were being restricted. The decision, which the city vowed yesterday to appeal, affects street artists who display their work in parks or on adjacent sidewalks, including those at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, which are part of Central Park. Their legal battle began in 1998 after the police began issuing summonses to those without permits. The conflict escalated into street protests and arrests, and the police confiscated some artwork. Yesterday, a group of the artists gathered outside the Metropolitan Museum to celebrate the decision. Holding an unflattering painting of Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani, Robert Lederman, one of the artists, said that the legal victory protected the rights of everyone from leafleteers to media magnates whose papers are sold in vending boxes, which require no permits. "Our efforts continue to make this city a place where artists can enjoy the freedom to create, display and sell their works," he said, "and this most essential of human freedoms can continue to be enjoyed by all New Yorkers." The federal decision came on the heels of a state decision last week that also favored the artists. A state appeals court affirmed the decision of a judge in State Supreme Court in Manhattan who dismissed criminal charges against two artists who were given summonses for selling artwork without a permit. The Manhattan district attorney's office has decided to appeal that decision also, according to city officials. The officials acknowledged that after the state decision last week they told the police and the Parks Department, which has jurisdiction over the space, to stop issuing summonses to the artists. Yesterday, city officials characterized the defeats in state and federal courts as the result of confusion over the interpretation of the city code. The parks commissioner, Henry J. Stern, called the case "a highly technical decision dealing with effect of administrative code on park-related matters." But he said that the Parks Department hoped to impose "reasonable regulations" either through legal remedy or some amendment to the city code. Currently, he said, "the unregulated commercial sale of art in public parks is inappropriate and intrusive." A lawyer for the city, Robin Binder, said last night, "The city thinks the decision is wrong and intends to appeal." The city can appeal to the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit and beyond that to the United States Supreme Court. Both sides seemed poised for further legal fighting yesterday. At the Metropolitan Museum, one of the artists, Wei Zhang, said that he had come from China, a country without human rights or free speech. After getting here, he said, the Giuliani administration had him arrested and confiscated his paintings. "I come to the wrong place again,' " he said. The discord began in March 1998, when the city began to try to regulate the cluster of street artists outside the Metropolitan Museum and began issuing 24 permits a month - at $25 each - to those selling their work there. The fine for those selling works without permits was $1,000. When the artists organized protests, singing and likening Mr. Giuliani to a dictator, the police started arresting them, leading a number of them away in handcuffs. Officials from the Metropolitan Museum said at the time that they did not have any complaints with the artists. The artists organized a group, Artist, an acronym for Artists' Response to Illegal State Tactics, and demanded that the state abide by a 1996 federal court decision that was the first to reject the city's efforts to license artists. Their protests and the arrests continued, and the lawsuits began as they fought what they called restrictions on their freedom. In August 1998, Judge Lucy Billings of State Supreme Court in Manhattan dismissed the charges against several of the artists, ruling that city law prevented the licensing of book and art vendors. She quoted a 1982 City Council law that said, "It is consistent with the principles of free speech and freedom of the press to eliminate as many restrictions on the vending of written matter as is consistent with the public health, safety and welfare." While the city appeals, one of the lawyers for the artists, Robert Perry, said his clients might go to trial to get damages for the restriction on their livelihood. Meanwhile, the artists seemed to be doing a brisk business selling postcards that depicted Mr. Giuliani in various monstrous guises. For Immediate Release Assignment desk: Street Artists win Second Federal Lawsuit Against Giuliani; Parks Department Artist Permit System Ended by Federal Court; press conference Friday 8/10/2001 12 noon in front of Metropolitan Museum of Art Contact# 718 743-3722 Federal Judge Lawrence McKenna has just issued a ruling in Lederman et al v Giuliani 98 Civ. 2024 (LMM) in favor of the NYC street artist plaintiffs. "Section 105 (b) 's permit requirement cannot be enforced against art vendors or indeed against book vendors", the judge wrote agreeing with both an earlier ruling by the NY State Appeals Court in a related case and with the 1996 street artist ruling by the second circuit Federal Appeals court. In conversations with the plaintiffs lawyers, Corporation Counsel Robin Binder acknowledged the termination of the Parks Department artist permit. Binder also claimed the City would now seek to change NYC law, specifically the licensing exemption for First Amendment protected book and newspaper vendors. Since winning the first street artist lawsuit in 1996 [Lederman et al v City of NY/Bery et al v City of NY] artists have the same licensing exemption as book and newspaper vendors. Eliminating that exemption would mean significant restrictions on free speech generally and specifically on tens of thousands of newspaper vending boxes owned by the NY Times, Post, Daily News, Village Voice and other NYC papers which are set up without any permit, fee or permission on NYC streets. Artists plaintiffs and their attorneys will hold a press conference outside the Metropolitan Museum of Art Friday August 10, 2001 at 12 noon. The exact location will be on the south side of the Met under the shade trees where the artists display their works. Note: This is a completely different ruling from the one announced on 7/31 by the NY State Appeals Court, which also ruled against the City's artist permit. A.R.T.I.S.T. president and lead plaintiff Robert Lederman, who has been arrested more than 40 times for protesting against the Mayor, made the following statement on winning the suit: "We street artists have spent eight years fighting Mayor Giuliani's efforts to restrict First Amendment freedom. Long before anyone else was sounding the alarm our message was that this Mayor had an agenda about limiting freedom of speech. It's a great feeling to know that our efforts continue to make this City a place where artists can enjoy the freedom to create display and sell their works and that this most essential of human freedoms can continue to be enjoyed by all New Yorkers". Robert Lederman, President of A.R.T.I.S.T. (718) 743-3722 robert.lederman@worldnet.att.net http://Baltech.org/lederman/ http://www.openair.org/alerts/artist/nyc.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 14:05:19 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: motherhood poetry gospels In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" rene girard is deeply catholic. At 3:23 PM -0400 8/11/01, Rachel Levitsky wrote: > From Cassie Lewis: > >As far as judgements about her parenting etc, it is all about speculation, >isn't it? So why then the need for evidence? I have a distaste for holding >parents responsible for anything and everything, as though their lives >stopped when they had kids, and by extension as though there weren't a >bigger social context for Plath's depression. > >>From me, Rachel: > >Mothers are just women, yes? > >Yes, in fact I am trying to figure out why so many women, single, lesbian, >married etc, my age (35-40--yes I am many) are popping out little ones with >great enthusiasm. After having so many choices does it seem like the only >one? Or do we do it cuz we can? Or is it an act of mimesis. i don't think >women could possibly believe they'd be more valued by the culture as >mothers. > >And speaking of the culture, did any of you read the article in the Business >section of yesterday's (Friday, Aug 10) Times about the "Bully Broads"--a >group that women execs are sent to by their male bosses when they are deemed >too tough. It's like a corporate gulag or AA where you must see and confess >the error of your ways in order to begin to progress toward gentleladiness. >Is the power of the corporate entity in getting these women to these groups >to reform and confess just monetary? (Not to mention the funeral for >feminism)(BTW--it takes place in bay area) > >Lastly on the topic of culture--I just read this book by Rene Girard call >The Scapegoat and am wondering if anyone has read it too. He finds in the >Gospels the first major text that provides the tools for the culture to >begin to move away from violent epiphanies by making them obvious. Is he a >catholic or a pacifist? > >Would love feedback on Girard: Levitsk@attglobal.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 12:56:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: laurie macrae Subject: Fwd: failure delivery MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Rachel, It's great to hear a young woman talking about her choices, clear-eyed and confident that she has them. You seem puzzled that not all women share your perspective, but there are still many, many women for whom motherhood IS a means, sometimes the only means, to acquire respect, status within the family, and love. Women's issues are never far from class issues, and working class women have, to a great extent,lost faith in the women's movement for its failure to respect their needs, especially with regard to motherhood. Silvia Plath was no product of the working class, but in her generation those values were still the dominant ones in our society and Sylvia always wanted lots of approval. Some of us actually love children!! We take pleasure in being a part of the human-animal experience of parenting, all that messy animal stuff - childbirth, suckling -and seeing the world anew through the eyes of a child. But all parents confront the inevitable limits of parenting whether or not we did it well. I'm sure everyone knows someone who had great parents and turned out to be a real ass. Likewise,the children, like Robert Stone, who grew up on the sreet, child of a schizophrenic mom and unknown father, who became remarkable: in Stone's case, a gift to literature and a good father, friend, and husband. Parenthood is a crap shoot. But for some of us, it has immeasurably expanded our knowledge of what it means to be human. I wouldn't have missed it for the world. Laurie > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! > Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 13:03:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Arielle Greenberg Subject: Re: Jimi Hendrix In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I just saw a documentary at the Providence, Rhode Island film festival about Cynthia Plaster Caster and much was made of Jimi Hendrix's, uh, plaster cast. Pretty funny movie, and it also sparked a lot of debate between me and my movie-going companion and erstwhile sig oth about whether or not what Cynthia did/does can be seen as a feminist act. I held that because she lives her life so much on her own terms, and because by asking men who do not work in the sex industry to hold their erections long enough for her to dip them in a cold plaster mixture so she can make a cast, which she then owns as art, she causes these men to confront their own issues around masculinity and their power as rock stars, she is indeed doing something that could be called feminist. But she's also, at heart, a groupie (albeit an artist-groupie), and does this superceed any power she had within her relationships with rock stars? Ok, sorry, digression. If anyone else has seen this film, or has any good sources about the whole groupie subculture they can point me towards, I'd love to talk about it. Please backchannel. Thanks, Arielle PS No one in the film could measure up to Jimi. --- Gary Sullivan wrote: > >If anyone has Jimi Hendrix' email address, could > they back-channel it to > >me? > > > >Thanks, > > > >Alan > > jh324@sfsu.edu > > I think he's on sabbatical right now. To be safe, CC > him at: > > electricladyland@hotmail.com > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 00:27:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath and Who's Great In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >At 12:48 PM -0700 8/8/01, George Bowering wrote: >>That is kind of true. But there must be some other criterion. >>Otherwise, whatsernam Aguilara would be a great singer. > >Perhaps you could have chosen someone other than a woman of color as >the source of your ridicule? > >Dodie This Aguilera person is a woman of colour? I didnt know that. I have just seen pictures of her in magazines and heard what seemed to be a rock viseo on TV. My point, was not to ridicule a kids' rock idol, but to make a point about greatness and fashionable fame. If you could supply me with the name of a man with no colour who is also very popular with the kids but whose talent may not yet have assured immortality, I will be pleased to use that fellow's name rather than Miss Aguilera's. By the way, I am having trouble with the phrase, "source of your ridicule." If indeed, I were doing some ridiculing, I would have had to say that I was the source of the ridicule, and that he person mentioned was the target of the ridicule. -- George Bowering Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 09:01:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: Pivotal Apothegms of the New Ophthalmologists In-Reply-To: <005f01c12118$d6057c60$86322518@adubn1.nj.home.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit This is amazing work! Thank you, whoever you are. -Aaron Belz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 12:54:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: darkness MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - darkness nikuko says: i'm on the road, i'm traveling in a strange land. jennifer says: this land's familiar to me, there's no buffer here. nikuko says: there's no memory, buffer's always memory. jennifer says: always short-term, always there when you need it. enter alan nikuko says: hello alan, i'm on the road, i can't see anything any more. jennifer says: hello alan, i'm here, i see everything, even the future. alan says: what's the future for everyone everywhere, jennifer? jennifer says: it is coming low, you have to duck, it will hit you. nikuko says: the sky is getting darker already, i can't see the road. alan says: pull over, nikuko, never fear invisible spirits. nikuko says: the invisible pulls me towards the side like the wheel pulls. jennifer says: the invisible is always a veering. enter alan nikuko says: hello alan. i am in darkness. thick darkness surrounds me. alan says: this is from the past. the past is broken. jennifer says: the absolute is not death; it is the breaking of the past. nikuko says: every breaking is a death of past, present, future. alan says: we run among wreckage; that is our exhaustion. jennifer says: our exhaustion is always already broken. alan says: the broken is dust. enter alan nikuko says: it is darker and darker, the darkness of black earth. nikuko says: it is thick darkness, darkness of suffocation. nikuko says: darkness of eyes torn out, ears hammered, amputation. enter alan nikuko says: darkness of silence and lead, darkness of no speech. nikuko says: i am driving. enter alan _ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 16:48:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dickison Subject: ** POETRY CENTER Fall 2001 Calendar Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable P O E T R Y C E N T E R 2 0 0 1 The Poetry Center & American Poetry Archives =46all 2001 Calendar Note: all events take place on Thursdays, except as indicated; fuller details for each event will follow throughout the season. * September 6 C.S. GISCOMBE & ISHMAEL REED (@ Unitarian Center, 7:30 pm) $7 * September 20 SARAH MENEFEE & BENJAMIN HOLLANDER (@ Unitarian Center, 7:30 pm) $7 * September 27 ALAN CHONG LAU & SHIRLEY ANCHETA (Poetry Center, 4:30 pm, w/Asian American Studies, SFSU) free * October 11 CLAUDIA RANKINE & LINDA NORTON (@ Unitarian Center, 7:30 pm) $7 * Monday October 15 LAWRENCE FERLINGHETTI: Benefit for Poetry Center (@ Club Fugazi, 7:30 pm) $7-12 * October 18 PAUL AUSTER: George Oppen Memorial Lecture (@ ODC Theater, 7:30 pm) $7 * October 25 BILL BERKSON & VINCENT KATZ (two events: A Tribute to Rudy Burckhardt, Poetry Center, 3:30 pm & reading from their works, Unitarian Center, 7:30 pm) free/$7 * Saturday October 27 MARK NOWAK & ALLISON HEDGE COKE (Knuth Hall, SFSU, 3:30 pm, w/Wordcraft Native Writers Circle and American Indian Studies) free * Friday November 2 BERNADETTE MAYER & JACK COLLOM (@ SF Art Institute, 7:30 pm, w/SFAI & Small Press Traffic) $7 * Saturday November 10 ALICE NOTLEY (@ Gershwin Theater, 7:30 pm, w/Readings at Lone Mountain, USF) free * November 29 PIERRE JORIS (Poetry Center, 4:30 pm) free Please note: Mahmoud Darwish will not in fact be appearing in the Bay Area in December. Lannan Foundation is sponsoring visits to several U.S. cities in late November and early December (New York City, Santa Fe, and possibly Washington, DC). We'll post the details on our website once confirmed. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Steve Dickison, Director The Poetry Center & American Poetry Archives San Francisco State University 1600 Holloway Avenue ~ San Francisco CA 94132 ~ vox 415-338-3401 ~ fax 415-338-0966 http://www.sfsu.edu/~newlit ~ ~ ~ L=E2 taltazim h=E2latan, wal=E2kin durn b=EE-llay=E2ly kam=E2 tad=FBwru Don't cling to one state turn with the Nights, as they turn ~Maq=E2mat al-Hamadh=E2ni (tenth century; tr Stefania Pandolfo) ~ ~ ~ Bring all the art and science of the world, and baffle and humble it with one spear of grass. ~Walt Whitman's notebook ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:03:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Levitsky Subject: Re: failure delivery In-Reply-To: <20010813195655.16263.qmail@web11908.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Laurie, Thanks for the response, though to tell you the truth I found it a bit condescending, if not platitudinous, and not responsive to the issue that I was talking about, though I see now that was my fault because i wasn't clear and descriptive enough and that you were trying to be kind. What I am talking about women of a certain age, 35 - 40 who seem to get here (as I said, it is where I am) and face some sort of abyss, and though in a way post 60's and 70's life promised more choices, there only seems to be one. The issue of respect from the culture is complex, anyone who grows up in a household with a mother knows what the true dynamics of motherhood are for that household, whether it be working class, single mother, brut father, or perfection?--and so when I say that it can't just be for respect (I think of the women schlepping their baby carriages up and down the subway, and yes, folks are nice, but mostly to be a mother in my city it is gruelling--not to mention the absolute separation of societies with children and societies without them) I mean to say that I am searching for a key to what i am anecdotally observing as a _movement_ towards motherhood, from this specific demographic group at this specific time, all the more remarkable because these are activists, feminists, lesbians, single working women, women of working class, and middle class, itinerant women, "diagnosed" women, women whose lives are disgustinly well-organized, women who get fired a lot from their jobs--most of my people are women who ten years ago were getting arrested for civil disobedience or twenty years ago resemble roller girl in boogie nights. How is this poetics? I'll let y'all decide. kiss, Rachel -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of laurie macrae Sent: Monday, August 13, 2001 3:57 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Fwd: failure delivery Rachel, It's great to hear a young woman talking about her choices, clear-eyed and confident that she has them. You seem puzzled that not all women share your perspective, but there are still many, many women for whom motherhood IS a means, sometimes the only means, to acquire respect, status within the family, and love. Women's issues are never far from class issues, and working class women have, to a great extent,lost faith in the women's movement for its failure to respect their needs, especially with regard to motherhood. Silvia Plath was no product of the working class, but in her generation those values were still the dominant ones in our society and Sylvia always wanted lots of approval. Some of us actually love children!! We take pleasure in being a part of the human-animal experience of parenting, all that messy animal stuff - childbirth, suckling -and seeing the world anew through the eyes of a child. But all parents confront the inevitable limits of parenting whether or not we did it well. I'm sure everyone knows someone who had great parents and turned out to be a real ass. Likewise,the children, like Robert Stone, who grew up on the sreet, child of a schizophrenic mom and unknown father, who became remarkable: in Stone's case, a gift to literature and a good father, friend, and husband. Parenthood is a crap shoot. But for some of us, it has immeasurably expanded our knowledge of what it means to be human. I wouldn't have missed it for the world. Laurie > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! > Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:12:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Levitsky Subject: Re: motherhood poetry gospels In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Maria, thought so. Did you read "The Scapegoat?" then i must say, i found it suspicious his use of an anti-Semitic persecution tale by Guillaume de MAchaut as the opening of the book, which he seems to almost gratuitously refer to occasionally through the first half of the text as the pinacle example of his theory of scapegoat and persecution, then forgets about it as soon as he established that the disciples and the gospels birthed the language that will save the world. I liked a lot of the writing in this book, but this not only bothered me as an apparent trick, but he never showed how the Machaut story fit his model of Crises-persecution of scapegoat-rise to level of a god-resumption of norm. Anyway, I'd love more info. --RAchel -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Maria Damon Sent: Monday, August 13, 2001 4:05 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: motherhood poetry gospels rene girard is deeply catholic. At 3:23 PM -0400 8/11/01, Rachel Levitsky wrote: > From Cassie Lewis: > >As far as judgements about her parenting etc, it is all about speculation, >isn't it? So why then the need for evidence? I have a distaste for holding >parents responsible for anything and everything, as though their lives >stopped when they had kids, and by extension as though there weren't a >bigger social context for Plath's depression. > >>From me, Rachel: > >Mothers are just women, yes? > >Yes, in fact I am trying to figure out why so many women, single, lesbian, >married etc, my age (35-40--yes I am many) are popping out little ones with >great enthusiasm. After having so many choices does it seem like the only >one? Or do we do it cuz we can? Or is it an act of mimesis. i don't think >women could possibly believe they'd be more valued by the culture as >mothers. > >And speaking of the culture, did any of you read the article in the Business >section of yesterday's (Friday, Aug 10) Times about the "Bully Broads"--a >group that women execs are sent to by their male bosses when they are deemed >too tough. It's like a corporate gulag or AA where you must see and confess >the error of your ways in order to begin to progress toward gentleladiness. >Is the power of the corporate entity in getting these women to these groups >to reform and confess just monetary? (Not to mention the funeral for >feminism)(BTW--it takes place in bay area) > >Lastly on the topic of culture--I just read this book by Rene Girard call >The Scapegoat and am wondering if anyone has read it too. He finds in the >Gospels the first major text that provides the tools for the culture to >begin to move away from violent epiphanies by making them obvious. Is he a >catholic or a pacifist? > >Would love feedback on Girard: Levitsk@attglobal.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 12:10:36 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: { brad brace } Subject: Artdealer Fable 1920 In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The year of 1920 had been a particularly bad one for American art dealers. Big buyers -- the robber-baron generation of the previous century -- were getting to an age where they were dying off like flies, and no new millionaires had emerged to take their place. Things were so bad that a number of the major dealers decided to pool their resources, an unheard-of event, since art dealers usually get along like cats and dogs. Joseph Duveen, art dealer to the richest tycoons of America, was suffering more than the others that year, so he decided to go along with this alliance. The group now consisted of the five biggest dealers in the country. Looking around for a new client, they decided that their last best hope was Henry Ford, then the wealthiest man in America. Ford had yet to venture into the art market, and he was such a big target that it made sense for them to work together. The dealers decided to assemble a list, "The 100 Greatest Paintings in the World" (all of which they happened to have in stock), and to offer the lot of them to Ford. With one purchase he could make himself the world's greatest collector. The consortium worked for weeks to produce a magnificent object: a three-volume set of books containing beautiful reproductions of the paintings, as well as scholarly texts accompanying each picture. Next they made a personal visit to Ford at his home in Dearborn, Michigan. There they were surprised by the simplicity of his house: Mr. Ford was obviously an extremely unaffected man. Ford received them in his study. Looking through the book, he expressed astonishment and delight. The excited dealers began imagining the millions of dollars that would shortly flow into their coffers. Finally, however, Ford looked up from the book and said, "Gentlemen, beautiful books like these, with beautiful colored pictures like these, must cost an awful lot!" "But Mr Ford!" exclaimed Duveen, "we don't expect you to _buy these books. We got them up especially for you, to show you the pictures. These books are a present to you." Ford seemed puzzled. "Gentlemen," he said, "it is extremely nice of you, but I really don't see how I can accept a beautiful, expensive present like this from strangers." Duveen explained to Ford that the reproductions in the books showed paintings they had hoped to sell to him. Ford finally understood. "But gentlemen," he exclaimed, "what would I want with the original pictures when the ones right here in these books are so beautiful?" The 12hr-ISBN-JPEG Project >>>> since 1994 <<<< + + + serial ftp://ftp.eskimo.com/u/b/bbrace + + + eccentric ftp://ftp.idiom.com/users/bbrace + + + continuous ftp://ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace + + + hypermodern ftp://ftp.rdrop.com/pub/users/bbrace + + + imagery ftp://ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace News://alt.binaries.pictures.12hr ://a.b.p.fine-art.misc Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html http://www.eskimo.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html Mirror: http://bbrace.laughingsquid.net/ { brad brace } <<<< bbrace@eskimo.com >>>> ~finger for pgp ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 15:15:54 -0400 Reply-To: Nate and Jane Dorward Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nate and Jane Dorward Subject: Re: A couple of things MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David: thanks for your praise--glad to know the book is "better than nothing". I have heard that there is even social class in Kansas. And I know that all representations are also from another point of view misrepresentations. Unless of course the other point of view is yours or Andrew Duncan's. all best --N Nate & Jane Dorward ndorward@sprint.ca THE GIG magazine: http://www.geocities.com/ndorward/ 109 Hounslow Ave., Willowdale, ON, M2N 2B1, Canada ph: (416) 221 6865 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 13:34:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 10 Aug 2001 to 13 Aug 2001 (#2001-120) Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable query: does anyone "out there" know of a source for a) david meltzer's DEATH anthology (very difficult to find) b) a book on the Brill Building. i.e. TIN PAN ALLEY but of the 1950's--- yours, Todd Baron ReMap Readers ---------- >From: Automatic digest processor >To: Recipients of POETICS digests >Subject: POETICS Digest - 10 Aug 2001 to 13 Aug 2001 (#2001-120) >Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001, 9:09 PM > > There are 29 messages totalling 1199 lines in this issue. > > Topics of the day: > > 1. NYC Play: Calbi Yau or What the Fuck is String Theory? (2) > 2. plath/suicide > 3. Greatness > 4. Greatness (correction to last post) > 5. edit, editors, editing (2) > 6. A couple of things > 7. New From Instance Press > 8. Jimi Hendrix (2) > 9. Sylvia Plath and Who's Great (2) > 10. m&r...we get letters... Ashberry re.... > 11. editors, editing, etc. > 12. motherhood poetry gospels > 13. astonishing > 14. punk rock > 15. Who is John Godfrey? > 16. writing away from I > 17. SYLVIA PLATH & 'EDIT, EDITORS, EDITING' POSTS FUSED INTO ONE, CENTAUR-LIKE > (& ROCK BAND) > 18. Sylvia Plath and Who's Great ('OBJECT of ridicule,' Dodie, 'OBJECT o= f > ridicule.' Not 'SOURCE') > 19. frag.][rept][ile > 20. your world close at hand > 21. sonnet(14) > 22. m&r...in memory of Hannah Weiner...radiant white.. > 23. binary thinking in riposte? > 24. unusual request/punk rock name > 25. SAMIZDAT ONLINE!! > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 16:38:55 -0400 > From: Patrick Herron > Subject: Re: NYC Play: Calbi Yau or What the Fuck is String Theory? > > 1.3.c What the Fuck is String Theory? > > > String theory attaches itself to the troth > that string will tether heart to mind or body > to soul. String theorists often save roll > so as to keep abuttal of the physical & ephemeral > when cloth of breath or heart threatens to depart. > Filament may avert the many versions of vital release. > > > Patrick > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: UB Poetics discussion group >> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of lee ann brown >> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 12:17 AM >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: NYC Play: Calbi Yau or What the Fuck is String Theory? >> >> >> This weekend, transfer from the Manhattan Bridge Service Changes >> to Zone Sub >> Sub Sub Atomic in: >> >> CALABI YAU >> or What the Fuck is String Theory? >> >> @ HERE! >> Saturday and Sunday August 11th and 12th >> >> Take a ride on CALABI YAU, an adventure story/multimedia performance >> piece about String Theory and the hidden dimensions of the MTA. It's a s= ub >> sub sub atomic adventure story based on elements from >> Brian Greene's _The Elegant Universe_. >> >> String Theory is too much to explain in this invite...so get the map fro= m >> the agents at HERE. >> >> Susanna Speier's CALABI YAU >> >> Directed by Tony Torn >> >> with original music by Stefan Weisman >> and video by Benton Bainbridge and Luke O'Malley >> >> Features: John S. Hall as Stringman; >> Okwui Okpokwasili as Calabi Yau/Lucy; >> Pam Karp and Tom Pearl as MTA 1 and 2; >> Michael McCartney as the Documentary Narrator; >> James Urbaniak as Gramps. >> >> >> CALABI YAU is part of the American Living Room Series >> @ HERE Performance Art Caf=E9: >> 145 Sixth Ave between Spring and Broome Street >> >> Saturday and Sunday August 11th and 12th >> >> 8:30pm / Ticket: $12 >> >> Reservations (212) 647-0202 >> >> Attn: Prepaid tix only! >> Order over the phone or drop by the box office. >> >> >> Lee Ann Brown >> Tender Buttons >> PO Box 13, Cooper Station >> NYC 10276 >> >> (718) 782-8443 home - (646) 734-4157 cell >> >> "Harmless amulets arm little limbs with poise and charm." >> >> =8B Harryette Mullen, Trimmings (Tender Buttons) >> > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:27:29 -0500 > From: Thomas Bell > Subject: Re: plath/suicide > > i agree, Richard, it is an important issue:. > > "> I think the issue IS important. Richard >> Taylor." > > suicide is an action or response to something. It's a choice and not > predetermined by constitution or occupation. I'm not sure it's always th= e > 'weaker' choice but at the same time i don't let my daughter get by by > saying 'I use drugs because I'm a teenager' > > tom bell > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 16:08:33 -0700 > From: "K.Silem Mohammad" > Subject: Greatness > > David Baratier writes: > >>I believe in the Marianne Moore model for greatness. All of the above >>living writers have this in common: few collections out, in each >>collection every poem is great. > > This is fine if that's what you want to go by, but it doesn't seem that > helpful in terms of what "great" conveys to most people in everyday usage= . > > It should go without saying, but just for the sake of clarity, it's also > important to distinguish between little-G great (as in "Mmm, great coffee= " > or "Oh yeah, I like Garrett Caples, he's great") and capital-G great (as = in > "she was the great love of my life" or "Conrad's _Chance_ is a fascinatin= g > novel, but not a great one"). > > Capital-G greatness is plainly what we're concerned with here, and again = at > the risk of stating the obvious, we can break it down further into a few > qualifying categories: > > 1) Global capital-G. The work or author in question is extremely widely > read and disseminated either academically or popularly over long periods = of > time, preferably centuries. In this category we could place the Koran, > Sappho, Dante, Shakespeare, Jane Austen, etc. Texts in this category are > influential to the point of monumentalism, both on the works of other > writers and on our concepts of literature in general. Greatness so defin= ed > is as much a function of canonization and public relations, etc., as of a= ny > "intrinsic literary value" in the works (and those scare quotes are inten= ded > not so much to debunk the notion of an absolute aesthetic value as to sig= nal > the subjective conditions under which such judgments are frequently > performed). These are texts likely to be familiar, at least in name, to > readers without specialized education. One need not even have read them = in > order to ascertain the evidence of their greatness: it is practically a > material fact, self-evident and self-sustaining. > > 2) Institutional capital-G. This would include works and authors in the > above category, but expand to include those whose influence is constraine= d > within narrower (i.e., purely academic) parameters. Examples: Simonides, > John Gower, Felicia Hemans, and Countee Cullen. Note that in some cases, > i.e. Hemans, the institutionalization of the author coincides with immens= e > popularity in her own time, but that such popularity is only conditionall= y > relevant to the designation of greatness; what counts is prolonged > circulation in a context of historical relevance as defined by specialist= s. > Again, in the case of Cullen, there are at least two levels within this > institutional category on which greatness might be gauged: the author's > influence with a framework of "minority" literature, and his significance= in > relation to literary modernism. These levels are of course interrelated, > but the important point is that both are determined _historically_: > aesthetic considerations are secondary to the process by which lines of > influence and positions within a tradition or traditions are drawn after = the > fact. In other words, the question whether Hemans or Cullen are "good" > poets is largely irrelevant to their "greatness" as thus conceived. I'm > willing to wager that this is the definitional level most readers on this > list would be quickest to revile as cynical and destructive, but it > nonetheless represents something like an "objective" measure, in that it > reduces the question of greatness to statistically confirmable criteria l= ike > syllabus content, PMLA indices, anthologization, etc. > > 3) Absolute capital-G. Arguably not a category unto itself, but either a= ) > an effect produced or sustained ideologically by the mechanisms of > institutionalization outlined above, or b) an effect of "subjective > aesthetic response," to borrow Barrett Watten's term, whose exact criteri= a > may be incoherent or inconsistent. Within this definition, Shakespeare o= r > Cullen or Rod McKuen are "great" either because they they effect a certai= n > condition of receptiveness and appreciation in their readers, or because > they _are said to do so_. Of course, it matters _who_ is saying they do = so. > One can draw radically different conclusions about the sort of > mystification involved depending on whether one believes the appreciation > derived from a given text has its source in the reader's own internal > standards of aesthetic value (perhaps derived from a lifetime of reading = and > evaluating, say), or in the reader's susceptibility to the suggestion of > such qualities in the work as would _seem_ to be perceived by the reader > according to internal standards but are actually imposed by some other > agency (schoolteachers, jacket design, word of mouth). The reason I > consider these part of the same level is that both invoke the idea of a > metaphysical greatness hovering around or above the object, unreducible t= o > the purely material processes of historical transmission and publicizatio= n > mentioned in levels 1 and 2. In short, the main problem with this as a > proposal for what defines greatness is that it's _not_. It leaves the > question squarely in the mind of each reader, unanswerable on the one han= d > because what one likes is simply what one likes, or on the other hand > because what one likes is what one has been told one likes. > > 4) Socio-pragmatic capital-G. One way of thinking of this level is as a > version of the kind of institutional activity described in level 2 broken > down into discrete communities of appraisal and consent. Hence, Rosmarie > Waldrop would be considered great by a sizeable percentage of a certain > community of readers, and Gary Soto by another, and neither one by the ot= her > community (on average), and the criteria on either side would be roughly > equivalent: Does this writer address the concerns of the literary communi= ty > with which I feel myself most aligned? Does she produce a substantial bo= dy > of work that is consistently representative of a more or less consistent = set > of aesthetic standards as explicitly or implicitly imagined by that > community? Is his work distinctive enough in some way to stand out among > the works of other members of the community without in so doing rendering > the aesthetics of the community invalid? Another way of thinking about i= t > (which may be the same way viewed from the opposite angle) is as a > cooperative alliance built upon the subjective aesthetic response model o= f > level 3: readers with given tendencies of aesthetic response find > like-minded readers and band together into coalitions. There is bound to= be > in-fighting and sub-faction formation, of course, but by and large one > Language poet or New Formalist or Stegner Fellow or whatever is going to > display a considerable amount of consistency in favoring or eschewing a l= ot > of the same texts as others of his/her kind. I think it's pretty clear t= hat > no one is going to be happy with this model. It turns the whole question= of > greatness into one of conformity and limited (yawn) transgression. > > So where does that leave us? For my money, back at level 1. An author i= s > great if she becomes Great. And as I said, that usually takes centuries,= or > at least some posthumous period of appreciation. For this reason, debate= s > about what living authors (especially authors under 50!) are Great are > always going to be speculation at best. Speculation can be fun, however,= so > I'm going to say that if any living poets have the smell of greatness abo= ut > them, Ashbery is certainly one of them. His appeal for many partisans on > either side of the divides that gape between the various "scenes," his > relative saleability and mainstream publishing status juxtaposed to his > origins within an avant-garde, and his widespread anthologization all spe= ak > favorably for him. Also, he works within and against tradition in invent= ive > and resonant ways that give his work the feel of being in an intense > dialogue (albeit a screwy one) with literary history. He manages to > generate an effect of elegant Romantic complexity without resorting to > slavish, forced metrical practice. On top of all this, and maybe most > importantly, he _appeals_ to a wide number of readers who may know or car= e > nothing for the other factors I've mentioned; someone new to poetry thumb= ing > through a _New Yorker_ might come upon one of his poems and enjoy a > painterly rush of bewilderment. > > Patrick suggested "that a great poet controls the poems they send into th= e > ethos, and while they may have individual early poems or even later ones > that appear in journals, in regards to a full length collection only the > great poems are published." I'm not at all comfortable with this notion = of > control, or with fixing on how or how often one publishes as a standard f= or > judgment. What does control over transmission have to do with the greatn= ess > of Sappho, Shakespeare, Dickinson? And the whole idea of great poems ver= sus > great books seems totally fraught. I'd say, for example, that _Harmonium= _ > is a great book whose sum of parts adds up to more than one might expect > from isolated samples. Why should a great book be any less valid as a > marker of its author's achievement than individual poems? (Or vice versa= .) > > In sum, Greatness is just too unstable and corrupt a term to be any use. = I > propose that we abandon it in favor of Wonderfulness. Just think of all = the > Wonderful poets you know! > > Much easier, isn't it? > > Kasey > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > K. Silem Mohammad > Visiting Asst. Prof. of British & Anglophone Lit > University of California Santa Cruz > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.as= p > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 16:11:44 -0700 > From: "K.Silem Mohammad" > Subject: Greatness (correction to last post) > > At the end of my last long post I accidentally attributed the following > quote to Patrick instead of David: > >>I offer that a great poet controls the poems they send into the ethos, >>and while they may have individual early poems or even later ones that >>appear in journals, in regards to a full length collection only the >>great poems are published. > > Again, David Baratier said that, not Patrick. My apologies. > > Kasey > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > K. Silem Mohammad > Visiting Asst. Prof. of British & Anglophone Lit > University of California Santa Cruz > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.as= p > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 21:23:56 -0400 > From: Nate and Jane Dorward > Subject: Re: edit, editors, editing > > Jim--thanks for the clarification. I don't think it especially changes m= y > point. My own policy with _The Gig_ has been "no unsolicited material", = but > I've had nonetheless to also turn down solicited work sometimes: definite= ly > not fun to do but it seems to me unavoidable & essential to the whole > enterprise. -- all best --N > > Nate & Jane Dorward > ndorward@sprint.ca > THE GIG magazine: http://www.geocities.com/ndorward/ > 109 Hounslow Ave., Willowdale, ON, M2N 2B1, Canada > ph: (416) 221 6865 > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 22:19:21 -0400 > From: Nate and Jane Dorward > Subject: A couple of things > > 1) anyone who has Keith Tuma's Oxford anthology who wants my list of > corrections & additions can drop me a line & I'll send a copy. Nothing I= 'm > too embarrassed about, but I've made discoveries since the book went to > press, & also found a few small goofs. > > 2) I thought while I'm at it I'd repeat an occasional offer of mine. _Th= e > Gig_ fills out the space at the bottom of the last page with a paragraph = of > notes on contemporary poetry. Anyone who sends me a note that I use will > get a free issue of the magazine. The notes tend to focus on UK poetry > (notably Prynne) but that's just because that's the poetry I've been writ= ing > on lately (esp. in annotating Keith's book): contributions dealing with a= ny > of the US, Canadian &c poetries that concern this list are welcome. Cred= it > is given for contributions. _The Gig_ 9 will appear in a couple of weeks > (assuming my laser printer can be induced to start working properly again= ), > so if you want a copy of it (shameless plug here: it'll have Trevor Joyce= , > Diane Ward, David Chaloner, Ian Patterson, William Fuller, Bill Griffiths= & > a long poem-report on the Liege conference by Shelby Matthews, plus an es= say > on Denise Riley by Robin Purves)...then get back to me shortly. > > Here's the notes that appeared in _The Gig_ 8: > > For the dedication to Raworth's _Writing_ ("to the moles and to the bats"= ) > see Isaiah 2:20. "i have set my face / as a flint" ("South America") is > from Isaiah 50:7. The last poem of _Sentenced to Death_ is collaged from > phrases from Barthes' _Camera Lucida_. > > The link between the opening invocation of Heidegger's "The Thing" in R.F= . > Langley's "Juan Fernandez," the image of the jug, and Defoe's _Robinson > Crusoe_, is perhaps Virginia Woolf's essay on Crusoe in The Common Reader > (2nd series). > > "O man for thy sake" in Prynne's _Word Order_ is from the anonymous > religious lyric "Woefully arrayed" [the William Cornysh setting of which = I > highly recommend --ed.]. "A whiff of new-mown hay" is the usual descript= ion > of the odour of diphosgene, used by the Germans in WWI; presumably > "bitter...almond" in the same poem touches on the smell of cyanide (& thu= s > on the use of Zyklon-B in the death-camps?). > > Peter Riley's _Preparations_ is based, poem by poem, on Blake's _Poetical > Sketches_. > > "Passa la nave mia colma d'oblio / per aspro mare" (quoted in John Riley'= s > "Prelude") is the opening of Petrarch, Rime 189 (the poem behind Wyatt's = "My > galley, charged with forgetfulness"). In "Czargrad," "la pluie, goutte = =E0 > goutte" is from Pierre Lou=FFs's _Songs of Bilitis._ > > > [the notes above deal with allusion-hunting mostly but that needn't be th= e > only topic, of course: I'm especially keen in the case of Prynne to have > some of the arcaner specialist jargon & discourses explained clearly. --N= ] > > > Nate & Jane Dorward > ndorward@sprint.ca > THE GIG magazine: http://www.geocities.com/ndorward/ > 109 Hounslow Ave., Willowdale, ON, M2N 2B1, Canada > ph: (416) 221 6865 > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 21:15:19 -0700 > From: Leonard Brink > Subject: New From Instance Press > > The Habitable World > by Beth Anderson > 80 pages > ISBN 0-9679854-1-2 > $10 > > "Kafka was right, impatience is a form of laziness. Patience, on the =3D > other hand, as demonstrated in Beth Anderson's poems, is a form of =3D > controlled energy, a painstaking, unflappable attention. Anderson has =3D > built The Habitable World slowly and with a steely calm. She is fearless = =3D > and will not be hurried. Her poetry, like our world, embodies time. =3D > Reader, if you enter these poems, you will live inside them and they =3D > will live in you." -- William Corbett > > "With their gorgeous locutions and turns, their heady breath, Beth =3D > Anderson's poems haunt, inhabit, and conjure the world we carry and =3D > contemplate in our daily passage through landscape and language. This =3D > delicate world so disclosed is here made luminous in stunning detail." =3D > -- Peter Gizzi > > "Beth Anderson writes intellectual lyrics whose smooth, confident =3D > surfaces mask stunning dislocations. It is clear in these accomplished =3D > poems that what is 'habitable' about the world is as much a matter of =3D > the language in which it is presented as it is of the objects, =3D > landscapes, and autobiography that ripple throughout." -- Charles North > > Available from Small Press Distribution=3D20 > or send a check to: > Leonard Brink > 327 Cleveland Ave. > Santa Cruz, CA > 95060 > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 00:17:45 -0400 > From: Gary Sullivan > Subject: Re: Jimi Hendrix > >>If anyone has Jimi Hendrix' email address, could they back-channel it to >>me? >> >>Thanks, >> >>Alan > > jh324@sfsu.edu > > I think he's on sabbatical right now. To be safe, CC him at: > > electricladyland@hotmail.com > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.as= p > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 00:28:08 -0400 > From: Geoffrey Gatza > Subject: Re: Jimi Hendrix > > Its jhendri@deadlegends.tv > > > > Geoffrey Gatza > editor BlazeVOX2k1 > http://vorplesword.com/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Alan Sondheim > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 4:38 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Jimi Hendrix > > If anyone has Jimi Hendrix' email address, could they back-channel it to > me? > > Thanks, > > Alan > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 00:48:11 -0400 > From: Geoffrey Gatza > Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath and Who's Great > > Dodie, > > Christina Aguilara is the whitest looking pop star. More of a sex worker > than singer and by no means great, but for a woman of color all she could > hope for is substance. This is not trying to dismiss you, Dodie, you know= I > love you. > > Best, Geoffrey > > Geoffrey Gatza > editor BlazeVOX2k1 > http://vorplesword.com/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Dodie Bellamy > Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 3:11 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath and Who's Great > > At 12:48 PM -0700 8/8/01, George Bowering wrote: >>That is kind of true. But there must be some other criterion. >>Otherwise, whatsernam Aguilara would be a great singer. > > Perhaps you could have chosen someone other than a woman of color as > the source of your ridicule? > > Dodie > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 03:15:25 EDT > From: Austinwja@AOL.COM > Subject: Re: NYC Play: Calbi Yau or What the Fuck is String Theory? > > In a message dated 8/10/01 3:03:50 PM, leeann@TENDERBUTTONS.NET writes: > > << String Theory is too much to explain in this invite...so get the map f= rom > > the agents at HERE. > > >> > > Even better, read Brian Greene's very readable The Elegant Universe befor= e > seeing the show. Best, Bill > > WilliamJamesAustin.com > KojaPress.com > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 08:52:52 -0400 > From: Harry Nudel > Subject: m&r...we get letters... Ashberry re.... > > from ZZZZ...how much read..Ashbery..can't...spell...your > bitterness...pathetic...ignorance...don't be unhappy...be Poets! (SIC) > > Hi ZZZZZ..keep on truckin' through the mine field of Ashberry > (sic)..brittle french irony with dead Harvard cadence...a one note f..kin= g > bore...good livin' & career...blowing s..t thru a straw out of his a-hold..DRn... > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 10:42:59 -0400 > From: Rebecca Wolff > Subject: Re: editors, editing, etc. > > "I'm not fond of magazines that simply check the weather, take a census, > that are inclusive and do what's right at the expense of showing us what > they care about. Show us! Stick it to me! Stick it in me!" > > says Andrew Maxwell; > > while it continues to amaze me that it is so difficult for anyone to > believe that anyone could actually "care about" inclusiveness--or, even > more incredible, "care about" (can we just say "like"?) individually the > poems that, as different as they are, create the weather. > > ********** > Rebecca Wolff > Fence et al. > 14 Fifth Avenue, #1A > New York, NY 10011 > http://www.fencemag.com > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 03:00:19 EDT > From: Austinwja@AOL.COM > Subject: Re: edit, editors, editing > > In a message dated 8/10/01 2:51:18 PM, baratier@MEGSINET.NET writes: > > << 8.) Poems about sex have to be as good as sex. >> > > Has Pavement Saw ever printed a poem about sex? If so, does that mean it= was > as good as sex? If so, FOR GOD'S SAKE, SHARE IT!!!!! Best, Bill > > WilliamJamesAustin.com > KojaPress.com > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 15:23:27 -0400 > From: Rachel Levitsky > Subject: motherhood poetry gospels > > From Cassie Lewis: > > As far as judgements about her parenting etc, it is all about speculation= , > isn't it? So why then the need for evidence? I have a distaste for holdin= g > parents responsible for anything and everything, as though their lives > stopped when they had kids, and by extension as though there weren't a > bigger social context for Plath's depression. > > From me, Rachel: > > Mothers are just women, yes? > > Yes, in fact I am trying to figure out why so many women, single, lesbian= , > married etc, my age (35-40--yes I am many) are popping out little ones wi= th > great enthusiasm. After having so many choices does it seem like the onl= y > one? Or do we do it cuz we can? Or is it an act of mimesis. i don't thi= nk > women could possibly believe they'd be more valued by the culture as > mothers. > > And speaking of the culture, did any of you read the article in the Busin= ess > section of yesterday's (Friday, Aug 10) Times about the "Bully Broads"--a > group that women execs are sent to by their male bosses when they are dee= med > too tough. It's like a corporate gulag or AA where you must see and conf= ess > the error of your ways in order to begin to progress toward gentleladines= s. > Is the power of the corporate entity in getting these women to these grou= ps > to reform and confess just monetary? (Not to mention the funeral for > feminism)(BTW--it takes place in bay area) > > Lastly on the topic of culture--I just read this book by Rene Girard call > The Scapegoat and am wondering if anyone has read it too. He finds in th= e > Gospels the first major text that provides the tools for the culture to > begin to move away from violent epiphanies by making them obvious. Is he= a > catholic or a pacifist? > > Would love feedback on Girard: Levitsk@attglobal.net > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 16:07:26 -0400 > From: Alan Sondheim > Subject: astonishing > > - > > > astonishing > > > crushed metal wreckage, blood and flesh interstitial > everything caught between mechanisms and components > embryonic mewlings, bodies and limbs scattered among stem cells > desperate last-minute growth as desiccation sets in, thwarted life > oh death along the vector the highway shot into darkness > > just now i saw her saying goodbye by the side of the road > the road was disappearing before and behind her > she was walking out into the darkness of the other movie > her name was claire danes and she was walking in 1995 > oh i was watching, gave her the tiniest stem cell of my gift > > in 1995 i died holding her picture in my hands > she looked at my tiniest gift shortly after with greatest sadness > the clock ran backwards but seemed to reverse everything > the highway shot into light, life was water-nourished, > bodies grew strong, limbs joined into all of us > and we drove swiftly and far down the beautiful highway, > oh reaching at last our astonishing destination > > > _ > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 23:09:46 +0900 > From: "B.E. Basan" > Subject: Re: punk rock > > Two high school band names that jump to mind are: > Saturated Mind > The Public Gays (Three of them were gay too) > Ben > ----- Original Message ----- > From: lee ann brown > To: > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 1:06 PM > Subject: punk rock > > > Dear Ammonides@AOL.COM > > Some of my favorite band names found on punk rock posters in providence > mid-ninties . . . > > > "Cosmic Vulva" > "Violent Anal Death" > were two I remember > > Traveling the punk circuit in Europe my favorites were this guy named > "Pig Havoc" in England and the first hardcore band in Italy- Syd Migx's > "Cheetah Chrome Motherfuckers" which I think is better than "Oedipus and = the > Motherfuckers," > I have to agree with your sons - your names are too literary > but I think you should right now write poems with those titles > > "Chairman Meow" or "Crisco" were my band names which > you can use but they are probably not right either > > Allen Ginsberg supposedly named The Blake Babies which works - > I'll keep thinking if you write one of those poims. > > Lee Ann > > > > >> Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 10:07:00 EDT >> From: Ammonides@AOL.COM >> Subject: unusual request/punk rock name >> >> My son and four of his friends are starting a punk rock band (this one h= as > an >> oboe in it hooked up to some digital contraption-- they are good, have > alredy >> been asked to play with God's Reflex, a pretty well-known band in > underground >> circles, at gigs in Chicago-- The Bowl and Metropole). >> >> They've been trying to come up with a good name, and have been getting > into >> disagreements over the issue. These guys are pretty sophisticated 16-18 > year >> old Genoa anarchist types: Three names which I've suggested, "Oedipus an= d > the >> Motherfuckers," "Bataille's Thing," and "Fake Pessoa," have all been > rejected >> as "too pompous" or "pushy" (though I know their knowledge of the last t= wo >> figures is slight). I told them that I would query the Poetics list for >> suggestions and they enthusiastically agreed that I should. >> >> Any imaginative suggestions (but not "pompous" ones)? Any ideas > appreciated. > > > Lee Ann Brown > Tender Buttons > PO Box 13, Cooper Station > NYC 10276 > > (718) 782-8443 home - (646) 734-4157 cell > > "Harmless amulets arm little limbs with poise and charm." > > < Harryette Mullen, Trimmings (Tender Buttons) > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 23:07:48 +0900 > From: "B.E. Basan" > Subject: Who is John Godfrey? > > Hi All, > Is there any information out there about John Godfrey, even a preface? I = =3D > can't find anything on the internet. Also, can anyone recommend one of =3D > his books, I only have a few poems. > Thanks, > Ben > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 20:08:31 -0500 > From: Thomas Bell > Subject: writing away from I > > Writing away from I > > Ways of not writing from the self, of not controlling, include focusing =3D > on the body as it is I am, writing as gesture and word not word, and =3D > letting other voices speak with the rhythms I feel we all feel. > > is a fragment prompted by recent discussions here and the fragment might = =3D > lead to some work but I'm also interested in any work that's been done =3D > on ways of writing as ways of knowing. > > > > tom bell > > > > > > =3D3D<}}}}}}}}}****((((((((&&&&&&&&&~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Metaphor/Metonym for health at =3D > http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm > > Black Winds Press at =3D > http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/blackwin.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:36:36 -0400 > From: Jeffrey Jullich > Subject: SYLVIA PLATH & 'EDIT, EDITORS, EDITING' POSTS FUSED INTO ONE, > CENTAUR-LIKE (& ROCK BAND) > > Well, since the daug days of August have depleted The List to a two-topic > dilemma ("Hmm. Shall I reply to 'Sylvia's Visions'--- OR to 'edit, > editing, editamus, editant'? Hm. Sylvia Plath great/non-great? [now > there's a tough one! Regis' "Wants to Be A Millionaire" offers 4-choice > Sylvia questions!]? magazine editing great/Plath-ish?)--- I thought it > might save time if we just fused the two: > > If Sylvia Plath had lived (Counterfactuality Logic mode kicking in) and > were editor of a journal today, what would she say, which glossy would sh= e > be edittting, which of the four teenage band members would she recognize = as > hetero . . . ? which words would see see on her forehead? (and mightn't i= t > have been Great SYLVIA [scorched eternal damination fright wig] who left > mischievous Freud-like "Father! Father! Wake up! I am burning in the > next room while you sleep!" message on NEWLYWED SONDHEIMS' answering > machine!? Nikuko jealous of recent Sylvia-reincarnation marriage?) > > Similarly all-in-one labor-saving fused answer(s) to above Qs: {dr= um > roll} > > COLLEGE ENGLISH: THE JOURNAL OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF TEACHERS OF > ENGLISH! > > {Sylvia is EXCUSED from greatness/un-greatness Miss World-style competiti= on > for the rest of her eternal damnation, since possessing A NOTE FROM HER > DOCTOR > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:55:15 -0400 > From: Jeffrey Jullich > Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath and Who's Great ('OBJECT of ridicule,' Dodie, > 'OBJECT of ridicule.' Not 'SOURCE') > >> At 12:48 PM -0700 8/8/01, George Bowering wrote: > >> whatsernam Aguilara > > Dodie Bellamy wrote: > >> Perhaps you could have chosen someone other than a woman of color as >> the source of your ridicule? >> >> Dodie > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= - ------ > > CHOOSE ME! CHOOSE ME! (ridicule =3D 'getting attention'?) > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 15:20:03 +1000 > From: "][-n.sert-][" > Subject: frag.][rept][ile > > ----frag.][rept][ile------ > > a pat.turn.esqu][K][ing. > drawn fetal crouches N b][m][ottle][d][s broken. > a crowd of 1 : a st][r][and of 2. > my. heart. jumps. backwards. > > w.arm][s][.th N wetness meating. > 6 ubers drow.nin.g. > a. pl][f][ace. of. no-screen][ed][. dreams. > > frag.][rept][ilian scal][ding][es. > i.c.the.phuture.melt.in.CRT.grooves. > .my .blood .is .l][h][ost .& .found. > > my dream][t][ of bod][ice rollings][y > a silver tongue & ][The][ Shining slips > my dopp.L.gang.ah! suggest welts > i. scrap][e][. N. sluice. N. stick. > > > > > > > > > . . .... ..... > net.wurker][M.ollient][ > pro.ject.ile x.blooms.x .go.here. > xXXx > ./. > www.hotkey.net.au/~netwurker > .... . .??? ....... > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:10:17 -0400 > From: Alan Sondheim > Subject: your world close at hand > > - > > > your world close at hand > > aget into the mix otime for women to be heard again b there's always room > for improvement lhow about some food worth slowing down for gslow down mi > like it you'll like it hgoing on coast to coast ware you getting enough > lof course you're not qyou're going to feel the blast khis last job just > became her first cif only her mother and grandmother could agree on how t= o > celebrate xthese days your eyes need nutrition as well as the rest of you= r > body kfor itch sufferers relief is here tworks all day or all night b > kills germs otime for a self-propelled vacuum euser guidance qthe most > powerful heavy-duty pickup you can get jmore truck ilike a rock ethese > handy little tablets can tackle more grass stains too uit's allergy seaso= n > again vwhere should you turn for relief uit's a real eye-opener isn't it > ka vicious gang of road warriors is terrorizing a town cto take the lives > of those who took his aonlyh people on the list no exceptions ksorry sir = i > didn't realize wwe love to see you smile kladyies no chance iwe're here > for a wedding which may become a funeral ta respectable chicken joint > eyour world close at hand ytwo more summer blockbusters are heading your > way zwe'll supply the blockbusters you supply the popcorn pi never tell > anyone what my favorite is, ever hcould be the nooks that hold the melted > butter or the crannies sanywhere there's water nyou'll get delivery right > away awe do so much to keep skin looking healthy rto help minimize the > appearance of scars lhelp keep it that way revery cut every time ooffers = a > third row of seats that's light and easy to handle than anything out ther= e > elike a rock gnew standard in bedroom luxury ia wireless remote to adjust > head and seats bthere's no obligation so don't delay dthat's when it all > began rdo you believe a man can fly kpeople can't fly like i did ytell me > how long you've been head of security here gturn the camera off will you > ki looked at consumer ratings and all the features that came with the > vehicle pfreedom is calling you rwhat will you find today ndon't miss it > uthe cool school event qwishin and hopin and thinkin and prayin and > plannin and dreamin ishow them that you care gyou want incredible color > ointense color lasting color uincredible color that's incredibly gentle > hnothing penetrates deeper xa beauty all your own m anywhere there's wate= r > bfor less than you're paying now ewe deliver you save mi haven't even > interviewed there zhow can you follow the team if you're flying all over > the place lit's wireless that fits cyour world close at hand > > > _ > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 00:43:33 -0400 > From: Alan Sondheim > Subject: sonnet(14) > > - > > > sonnet(14) > > the way it works it begins with an equivalence annulled: > 0 -> f(x) > this refuses to hold the quantity changes such that > 0(t) -> f(x)(t+1) so that it becomes necessary to create > 0(t) > f(x)(t+n) where n =3D minimum of 2 so that > a surplus continues to exist > let the phrase =3D [U] or universe of travel/travail > on the road, in the midst of travel > 0 -> 1 > so that _now_ t(0) i write _ahead of the game_ > which is the game of _textual production_ > a series of texts T0, T1, ... Tn > therefore i am capable of keeping up the _appearance_ > of textual creativity by always writing ahead of myself > > _ > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 11:28:17 -0400 > From: Harry Nudel > Subject: m&r...in memory of Hannah Weiner...radiant white.. > > braille...Eagle A > sign language...Eagle A..code of hand..system...is a very... > navy semaphore...signaling..send messages.steaming column..pair flags > cuneiform...cuneus..stylus...word or syllable...sun baked oven harden > court reporter...high speed...keys..easily portable..silent > international information signs..1976...bridge lang. barrier... > music...music nota...G above middle C...tempo marks..and the slur... > hieroglyphics...king narmer...area 'tween horned fig...hathor > shorthand..Eagle A proudly presents...Cotton Content Paper..longhand.. > universal product code...lines bars...'rings' it up..funct. inv. sys. > mathematics...mathematica..laws abstractions generalizations more > morse code...iron strip Samuel...series..straight lines..sound of dots > computer tape..3/4" or 1"..holes punched..stored..finished..later date > international aircraft signals..ground to air..emerg.sand.white.agree > > a blind french boy grew up remembering....joys of seeing...the braille on > the cover translates to Eagle A.....a toi....DRn... > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 00:52:31 -0500 > From: Thomas Bell > Subject: Re: binary thinking in riposte? > > This seems like a "'good'" starting point to me: > ">more interested in turning out good writers than >> good writing... >> >> does that get somewhat at what you're saying?... when i use "good," i me= an >> it in the largest ethical sense possible... we're interested in the whol= e >> enchilada, but for us this includes the disciplinary whole, as paradoxic= al >> as that may sound... and for us this means trying to get away from the >> self-saturated, merely expressive individual (though expressing isn't su= ch >> a bad thing, neither!)..." > > and for me it turns on the psychological perspective the Pennebaker artic= le > hits on - an ethical writer is one who can express 'we' rather than 'I'? > This is something I'm feebly discovering in my old age and I'd be interes= ted > in ideas about ways it could be taught. I can see how it happens in the > therapeutic arena but I'm not sure if i could give you any sources to loo= k > into. > > I think it also relates to what you said about life experience but the > analogy is somewhat muddied as one doesn't have to have lived through a > trauma, for example, to help someone else deal with it. Does one need to > have lived through WWII (to take a non-controversial event as an example)= to > write well about 'our' experience of it? > > tom bell > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 11:27:10 +0100 > From: =3D?iso-8859-1?q?Scott=3D20Hamilton?=3D > Subject: Re: unusual request/punk rock name > > Here are mine. I bags 10% royalties if one of these is > used: > > Dead Men Rising > > New Routines > > Water Street Exit > > Smith's Deviation > > Diving for Air > > Drive Blind > > Last Boat Leaving > > Hoarse Gods > > This could be a new poetic form, you know. Doesn't > Ashbery have a poem of poem titles - is it in And the > Stars Were Shining? > > Cheers > Scott > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > For "a ruthless criticism of every existing idea": > THR@LL, NZ's class struggle anarchist paper http://www.freespeech.org/thr= all/ > THIRD EYE, a Kiwi lib left project, at > http://www.geocities.com/the_third_eye_website/ > and 'REVOLUTION' magazine, a Frankfurt-Christchurch production, > http://cantua.canterbury.ac.nz/%7Ejho32/ > > ____________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk > or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 09:39:35 -0500 > From: Robert Archambeau > Subject: SAMIZDAT ONLINE!! > > Hey there, listfolks, > > I know what you're thinking. It's hot, it's humid, and the academic > year is about to start. You're miserable and don't know what to do with > your time. You'd like to read a poetry magazine, but lifting those > heavy pages seems like too much of an effort. What's a poet to do? > > Luckily, we here at Samizdat have cooked up a solution: > > SAMIZDAT IS NOW AVAILABLE ONLINE > > Don't fret, newsprint afficinados: we're still doing paper editions. > But thanks to my genius student web guru Kate Swoboda (editor of Ennui > magazine, http://www.ennuimagazine.com/) we're starting to put our full > content online at: > > http://www.samizdateditions.com/ > > Right now you can get the ROTHENBERG/JORIS issue, and others will > follow. > > > > Bob Archambeau > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 11:38:07 +0100 > From: roger.day@GLOBALGRAPHICS.COM > Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath and Who's Great > > I always thought a decent period of quietus (like 2 or 3 hundred years) s= hould > lapse before we burdened people with the label of greatness. Talk about stymying > people half way through... > > At 09/08/2001 22:21:49, Bob Grumman wrote: > # Trying to determine who under fifty may be great is extremely > # hard simply because there are so many poets writing, and it is > # so easy to find greatness in one of them which is only borrowed > # from another with whose work one is unfamiliar. I would prefer to > # answer the question, who under fifty has written at least one > # poem of the first rank? A few I can think of (and I'm also > # handicapped by not knowing the ages of many poets; that said, I > # have to admit that I have definitely lost touch with poets under > # thirty; I do know a few, but . . .): Geof Huth, Crag Hill, Jake > # Berry . . . I refuse to even say which poems of theirs I consider > # first-rank. I'm just answering Patrick's question. > # > # As for the fifty or over, three just into that bracket that have > # written first-rate poems, and that I am willing to deem great are > # Jonathan Brannen, Stephen-Paul Martin and Mike Basinski. The living > # American poet of whose greatness I am most confident is John M. > # Bennett (though that doesn't mean I am confident that the > # world will ever agree with me). > # > # --Bob G. > # > Roger > > ------------------------------ > > End of POETICS Digest - 10 Aug 2001 to 13 Aug 2001 (#2001-120) > ************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 12:40:57 -0500 Reply-To: archambeau@hermes.lfc.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Archambeau Organization: Lake Forest College Subject: Re: edit, editors, editing MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim Behrle wrote: > Sending rejections, when done, should not be done > with relish, or with the attitude: "You have not earned > a space in my magazine, little poet, come back in 6 > months." > Hey. It's never fun sending a rejection letter. When I started editing Samizdat, I used to write out page-long letters, and try to say something specific about the poems and why we weren't going to publish them. When I started getting page-long letters back, telling me how wrong I was, I went over to the more usual model of rejection slip. (What was it -- Kayak? -- that used to send out little cards with a picture of the guillutine? That was probably out of line -- not everyone has a sense of humor). Anyway -- a magazine like Samizdat, which doesn't list any address to which poems should be sent, and which officially doesn't take unsolicited manuscripts, gets unsolicited contributions in the mail every day. There's not enough space even to print the poems about which I'm enthusiastic. I have a lot of sympathy for the people who are rejected, I take no relish in it, and I seriously doubt that many editors do. Editing has its rewards, but rejecting work is not one of them. Bob Archambeau ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 11:28:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Cynthia Plaster Caster In-Reply-To: <20010813200342.6924.qmail@web11302.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 1:03 PM -0700 8/13/01, Arielle Greenberg wrote: >If anyone else has seen this >film, or has any good sources about the whole groupie >subculture they can point me towards, I'd love to talk >about it. Arielle, I have an article about CPC in the latest issue of Nest, a glitzy magazine "of interiors." My 1000 word article is accompanied with photos of Cynthia's Chicago apartment, which, I imagine you saw lots of in the film. I haven't seen the documentary. When I talked with Cynthia, they were submitting it to film festivals. It apparently didn't make it into the bay area festivals, as I haven't heard of it being shown out here. I did buy a bootleg copy of the 1969 documentary The Groupies--off of eBay, of course. I'd seen it when I was an undergrad and it had made quite an impression on me. The movie is long out of circulation and my copy was so many levels beyond the original that sometimes it was just a smear of color across the screen, hard to see the action. In some ways this was enjoyable. There's lots about groupies on the internet. Just do a search on Cynthia--there's a couple of groupies websites. I, personally, wasn't all that impressed with Cynthia's project. Everything about her seemed so showman-like and well rehearsed. Before I talked to her I'd read several interviews published on the web, and her answers to my questions were nearly verbatim what I'd read. And she kept saying things that were geared to shock me, like "I like to talk dick." I don't really think there is a feminist politics behind her project--not that that really matters. Why does a woman need to have a feminist agenda to deal with sex--I don't see any reason for that. When I was working on the piece my editor was visiting SF and we went out to dinner. He asked me what I thought of Cynthia's project, and I said I thought it was revolting, but I wasn't going to write from that perspective. He said, "You're right, that's not the most interesting perspective." He suggested I focus on technical expertise, which I did do. It was a difficult project for me, as I wanted to be honest. I didn't like the project but I liked Cynthia and didn't want to say anything bad about her--plus it was clear I was being paid (a lot) to act enthusiastic about the project. I ended up being pleased with what I'd done. I thought--there's worst ways to be a whore (meaning me, not Cynthia). Best, Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:33:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cadaly Subject: preliminary request for ideas MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I have the opportunity to gradually attempt to establish some sort of poetry residency, conference, or short intensive workshop, probably with a focus on ecopoetics, in Joshua Tree National Park (the Mojave Desert not very far from Palm Springs or Riverside). It has always seemed to me that fewer of these types of opportunities are available to more experimental poets. What would draw you to such a residency, conference, or short intensive workshop? College credit? Opportunity to present a paper, a panel, read to some sand? Is the only reason to go to one of these things to study with [famous poet]? Is there really usually a lot of money involved somehow? Is time alone in an old ranger cabin much more useful than time alone at home? Are you willing to camp? Thanks in advance, Catherine Daly cadaly@pacbell.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 19:29:22 -0400 Reply-To: Nate and Jane Dorward Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nate and Jane Dorward Subject: Re: edit, editors, editing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim--I would imagine most editors start up a magazine because they want to publish work they're enthusiastic about. I'm not sure I understand why it's culpable of them thus not to publish work they have no enthusiasm for. Glad for Robert Archambeau's pointer to his editorial on anthologies, though I might demur a bit at a few things. First, because rejection is not the same as omission: the former is the province of a magazine editor, the latter of an anthology editor (that is, most anthologies contain reprinted work selected by the editor at leisure from a poet's oeuvre, while the editor of a magazine has no control over the quality of hitherto unseen submissions). Second, the Ellmann/O'Clair Norton anthology is hardly unedited or indiscriminate...as a comparison with the Hoover anthology might suggest, considering the virtual nonoverlap between the two. Third, there are good reasons for including in anthologies work the editor may not like--as I once remarked I think Spenser's _Shepherd's Calendar_ is awful but if I were editing an anthology of Renaissance verse it would be in there. Little magazines respond to entirely different imperatives. all best --N Nate & Jane Dorward ndorward@sprint.ca THE GIG magazine: http://www.geocities.com/ndorward/ 109 Hounslow Ave., Willowdale, ON, M2N 2B1, Canada ph: (416) 221 6865 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 17:10:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath In-Reply-To: <004501c11fa3$a0f007a0$3d2437d2@01397384> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > I think that we are social animals and that in most cases we are, though >ultimately self responsible, we have strong links to others and those links >are essential to our survival. So, in general, nihilism leads nowhere. So >our best approach as writers would be to encorage self-responsibility and >put out as many positive messages about life: which is overall marvellous, >given the darknesses, and, if possible "tough out" or overcomne any negative >thinking. Richard. Twould be hard to disagree with that. I figure that if you think that your own life is yours to do with as you want to, you have a tight egotism that is not open to hearing anything that is beyond what one knows right now; pretty sad, I agree. -- George Bowering Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 12:57:01 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Pivotal Apothegms of the New Ophthalmologists MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron. I was similarly impressed. Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Belz" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 2:01 AM Subject: Re: Pivotal Apothegms of the New Ophthalmologists > This is amazing work! Thank you, whoever you are. > > -Aaron Belz > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 00:09:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ray Bianchi Subject: Free beer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey a question just moved to Princeton NJ. looking for poets to socialize with, anyone open? First beer's on me. R ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 00:18:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Re: Who is John Godfrey? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi Ben, John Godfrey is a wonderful poet and full-time, probably more than full-time, nurse. I don't know a whole lot about him, though my sense is he's in his fifties, has lived all or most of his life on the east coast, has been involved with the Poetry Project some. I see him now & then in the east village, where he lives. If you live in New York, you can probably see him read here sometime, though he doesn't read all that often, maybe once a year or two years or so. The people I know who know him say he's as intensely dedicated a nurse as he is a poet. There's a new book out by him that I think was published by The Figures (or Hard Press, or maybe a collaborative publication?), but I don't know the name of it. The Figures published Midnight on Your Left in 1988, which I'm pretty sure is still in print--& at $6, a real bargain. The Figures, 5 Castle Hill, Great Barrington, MA 01230. The editor's name is Geoffrey Young, who will happily tell you everything he knows about Godfrey if you ask him. You might also try checking out: www.abebooks.com which is a vast database/website for used books, where you can search for John Godfrey, and probably find some of his earlier books. Dabble and Where the Weather Suits My Clothes are two other Godfrey titles, though both probably out of print. You might find used copies of both (& maybe some of Godfrey's even early stuff) at abebooks. Both are worth having, especially Dabble, which I think is a kind of selected of early poems, very different than Midnight on Your Left. I think there was an interview with Godfrey in the Poetry Project Newsletter a few years ago. You might also try writing to them and seeing if you can get that issue. I don't know their full address offhand, but you can find them online, just type in "Poetry Project" in Google or Yahoo. I don't know of anything written about his work, though. If you find anything, divulge! Gary _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 02:45:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Grrrrrrreat! editing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I don’t know if it’s fair or not to throw this into the mix, but my own favorite poetics magazine is Jonas Mekas’s Film Culture. I think of it as a poetics magazine, in part because Mekas is a poet & has a poet’s sensibility (as opposed I guess to a narrative-maker’s), and in part because the magazine mostly seems to me to be advocating a kind of "poetics of cinema." It, and Mekas, had an amazing history. The first issue came out in the 50s, and they’re still publishing, if very irregularly. When Mekas started the magazine, not long after he’d arrived in the USA with his brother, Adolfas, after spending years in an internment camp in eastern Europe after the second world war, he was what you’d call more or less a "conservative." In 1955 he wrote a piece for Film Culture called "The Experimental Film in America," which criticized American avant-garde filmmakers for being "adolescent," lacking in creativity ... and even included a section titled "The Conspiracy of Homosexuality." The essay is actually still in print, in P. Adams Sitney’s Film Culture Reader. There is now, though, a note from Mekas: "What amazes me when re-reading (in 1970) this Saint-Augustine-before-the-conversion piece, is not the complete turnabout that I have traveled since then, but the fact that the tone, the thinking, and the argumentation of my essay of fifteen years ago are still used today by all the liberal and conservative critics to put down the avant-garde film-maker of 1970." It’s amazing to me that Mekas continues to allow this piece of his to see print (is there any poet or poetry critic who’s allowed anything similar?) – but he does, and I think he does because for him, the progress of the magazine, & of his own thinking, whatever happened historically, is more important to him than saving face. (Obviously, Mekas overcame his homophobia; he just never tried to hide the fact that he’d once suffered from it.) Film Culture is without question the single most important English-language magazine devoted to the art, ultimately the most "liberal," the broadest in scope, the loosest, the most inclusive, and of those in English, probably the only one that’s going to be remembered for any length of time. (Ron, if you can tell me a single American poetics mag that has been as influential & important for poets as FC has been for filmmakers "across the board," & I’ll accept a convincing argument, I’ll give you five US bucks. I have to be honest: what I finally don’t "get" is why anyone would believe some US poetry mag fueled on mere polemics that runs for less than a dozen issues is even in the same league as Film Culture.) Millennium Film Journal, Film Comment, etc., are all wonderful, but Film Culture is indispensable. It’s neither about the filmmaker’s twelve close friends & their "new film movement," nor is it some hodge-podge of avant-garde & mainstream film. It really has, for half a century, been a kind of weathervane, in that it has always reflected not only the editor’s point of view, but its readers’ & contributors’ – it’s filled with dissenting opinion. (For instance, Andrew Sarris, with whom Mekas almost always completely disagrees, is one of the most prominent frequent contributors.) I love this magazine, I love the sense it actually gives of the film world, specifically the avant-garde film world, as it existed & exists (as opposed to how one might idealize it), and it’s a constant source of sadness (& minor embarrassment) that nothing like it in the poetry world, at least not in English, has ever been made manifest. Why not? Gary _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 23:45:33 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: darkness MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan. I am always surprised by your ongoing "magnus opus" and pleased you are putting your work and self on the line on line so to speak. How to evaluate it? Need to enavaluate it? Enough that I find it always interesting - sometimes annoying - sometimes not so good but mostly fascinating. The idea and the "audacity" of the quantity of it at the very least. Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Sondheim" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 4:54 AM Subject: darkness > - > > > darkness > > nikuko says: i'm on the road, i'm traveling in a strange land. > jennifer says: this land's familiar to me, there's no buffer here. > nikuko says: there's no memory, buffer's always memory. > jennifer says: always short-term, always there when you need it. > enter alan > nikuko says: hello alan, i'm on the road, i can't see anything any more. > jennifer says: hello alan, i'm here, i see everything, even the future. > alan says: what's the future for everyone everywhere, jennifer? > jennifer says: it is coming low, you have to duck, it will hit you. > nikuko says: the sky is getting darker already, i can't see the road. > alan says: pull over, nikuko, never fear invisible spirits. > nikuko says: the invisible pulls me towards the side like the wheel pulls. > jennifer says: the invisible is always a veering. > enter alan > nikuko says: hello alan. i am in darkness. thick darkness surrounds me. > alan says: this is from the past. the past is broken. > jennifer says: the absolute is not death; it is the breaking of the past. > nikuko says: every breaking is a death of past, present, future. > alan says: we run among wreckage; that is our exhaustion. > jennifer says: our exhaustion is always already broken. > alan says: the broken is dust. > enter alan > nikuko says: it is darker and darker, the darkness of black earth. > nikuko says: it is thick darkness, darkness of suffocation. > nikuko says: darkness of eyes torn out, ears hammered, amputation. > enter alan > nikuko says: darkness of silence and lead, darkness of no speech. > nikuko says: i am driving. > enter alan > > > _ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 12:24:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Fwd: yr editing post on list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed From: Elliza Mcgrand hi jim due to wierd circumstances beyond my control (email forwarded from host i can't get onto anymore because my hub got decomissioned, but it's memory was downloaded into another server) i GET buffalo list but can't write to it. i'd love not to get it at my present site, but somewhere with a decent mail editor... i've been thinking of looking into hotmail. anyway, don't read much of it because mail editor makes that impossible. BUT... have been following your edit post a bit. you are, as always, cogent and thoughtful, good points. i agree with the drift of your riposte to david baratier, but he IS making a useful point which, as an editor, you have at least grappled with. what do you do when a well known writer sends you something dreadful? it is a variation of your dilemna when a friend sends something dreadful. you have reasons to say yes, and reasons to say no. it is an interesting question. one thinks of an editor as deciding from an ivory tower of purist theory, but the visigoths scale the tower in hordes. there is no purist theory country you can live in that has no ladders. it is good to put your emphasis on what you can include, where you can say yes, who you have supported. to say each no with regret and a wish things had been different, with hope that you won't have to say no to the same person in the future, makes for a more collegial, encouraging atmosphere. but, as in life, there are people who draw definition, power, out of who they turn down, who they snub, and that isn't meant as a bad thing. saying no, as sartre would have it, can ultimately be the only proof of existence, the last refuge of the beleaguered. emphasis on being able to say no, then, interestingly, can signal a sense of powerlessness, a retreat into the last power, choice, of even the most disenfranchised... and an emphasis on yes, on wishing to say yes, can be a position of strength, of a mindset of optimism that everyone has at least one good poem in them, that people and their writing evolve, that nothing is static. anyway, you can post this if you want... e _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 10:08:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: motherhood poetry gospels In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII one might say, hysterically catholic. for a truly strange reading experience (assuming you are more skeptical than he is), read "Things Hidden Since the Foundation of the World"--though it is one of the truly great examples of someone simply ignoring or rejecting counterevidence in order to make argument. as I recall, he simply rejects the parts of the Bible that seemingly contradict him. it's much more pleasing to apply the strictures he does to other religions back to X-tianity: after all, this is a religion where the Savior's blood is drunk every week (at least after transubstantiation, which may or may not be still Vatican policy--I'm not up these things). that said, he is much more interesting on literature: check out Deceit, Desire and the Novel. Robert -- Robert Corbett "I will discuss perfidy with scholars as rcor@u.washington.edu as if spurning kisses, I will sip Department of English the marble marrow of empire. I want sugar University of Washington but I shall never wear shame and if you call that sophistry then what is Love" - Lisa Robertson On Mon, 13 Aug 2001, Maria Damon wrote: > rene girard is deeply catholic. > > At 3:23 PM -0400 8/11/01, Rachel Levitsky wrote: > > From Cassie Lewis: > > > >As far as judgements about her parenting etc, it is all about speculation, > >isn't it? So why then the need for evidence? I have a distaste for holding > >parents responsible for anything and everything, as though their lives > >stopped when they had kids, and by extension as though there weren't a > >bigger social context for Plath's depression. > > > >>From me, Rachel: > > > >Mothers are just women, yes? > > > >Yes, in fact I am trying to figure out why so many women, single, lesbian, > >married etc, my age (35-40--yes I am many) are popping out little ones with > >great enthusiasm. After having so many choices does it seem like the only > >one? Or do we do it cuz we can? Or is it an act of mimesis. i don't think > >women could possibly believe they'd be more valued by the culture as > >mothers. > > > >And speaking of the culture, did any of you read the article in the Business > >section of yesterday's (Friday, Aug 10) Times about the "Bully Broads"--a > >group that women execs are sent to by their male bosses when they are deemed > >too tough. It's like a corporate gulag or AA where you must see and confess > >the error of your ways in order to begin to progress toward gentleladiness. > >Is the power of the corporate entity in getting these women to these groups > >to reform and confess just monetary? (Not to mention the funeral for > >feminism)(BTW--it takes place in bay area) > > > >Lastly on the topic of culture--I just read this book by Rene Girard call > >The Scapegoat and am wondering if anyone has read it too. He finds in the > >Gospels the first major text that provides the tools for the culture to > >begin to move away from violent epiphanies by making them obvious. Is he a > >catholic or a pacifist? > > > >Would love feedback on Girard: Levitsk@attglobal.net > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 12:49:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: Re: table of contents as mosh pit Comments: To: Ammonides@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Allusion well taken. My objection would be lifting a discreet historical moment to the level of a discreet yet ahistorical genre. Even with the given difficulty of discretion in such cases, I stand behind any attempt to develop work (be it Kenning or a pop group) stemming from developments supposedly run-the-course such as radical modernist poetry or punk rock music. I suppose if I'm young (30, to be exact), and "post-Language" (which, in my day to day living / working, makes little sense to me, as much as whatever it is may bear on my circumstances or judgment), then so be it. In fact, that was the explicit conditions of my early editor's notes in which I lay out my field of intention in terms of Kenning, if nothing else. Can't tell what to make of the tenor of your post, but I certainly don't feel in the least that Kenning has been or will become a damned proposition. In fact, due entirely to the devotion and ingenuity of my contributors (young & old), I consider Kenning to have been a great success on its own terms, thusfar. My only regret is that "young" and "post-Language" too easily become tags which, once spotted, keep the more timid of Kenning's potential audience at bay. And so, they spend their hard-earned six bucks on a copy of The germ, instead of twelve for one of each. Rad. The mosh pit was invented in a frat house. Patrick KENNING | a newsletter of contemporary poetry poetics & nonfiction writing | Patrick Durgin, editor of Kenning, said, in response to my mention of my son and his friends starting a punk band: "No, they're not. With the wealth of edutainment pieces now available on the (more or less) simulataneous socio-political phenomena of punk, more and more kids are figuring out what a damned proposition "starting a punk rock band" is." This is interesting (I take it Durgin is alluding to cultural field theory and the folly of position-taking gestures in an ideologically overdetermined and appropriated field)... Could it be said, too, that in the more or less simultaneous socio-political phenomena of "avant-garde"/experimental writing, that young, post-Language editors are beginning to realize what a damn proposition they have gotten themselves into by starting a "radical" literary magazine? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 13:28:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcella Durand Subject: edit, editors, editing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I guess you could say that I have a knee-jerk reaction to anything resembling a capitalist-consumer-production process when applied to poetry. To me, part of the art & publishing of poetry is presenting an alternative to current systems, or, as Thoreau put it (I'm paraphrasing), we should let our poetry be an obstacle to the giant wheel of "progress." While it would certainly be nice to have some benevolent patron out there pay us for all the time we spend on poetry and publishing, with no demands on what we produce, the spiritual costs are too high, generally, for producing work to "sell." You enter the system. That so many people on this list publish for the pure love of it presents an important opposition to the current general consumer-tied mode of publishing. I currently work in the magazine industry, and believe you me, editorial content is very much affected by advertising, circulation and consumption. Also, I very strongly disagree with "good" artwork as that which has stood the test of time. This idea has been used to justify the existence of the current white-male-dominated canon. Many poets have recently been "rediscovered" who were lost for various reasons--racism, sexism, publishers going out of business, current events, etc. John Donne was only rediscovered by T.S. Eliot in the early 20th century. And as another example, Elizabeth Stoddard's novel, The Mogensons, was published just as the Civil War broke out; as a result, the novel was lost for decades, and is only being rediscovered now--or at least was rediscovered by an English teacher of mine. Also, I can think of a few authors who "survived the test of time" who didn't really deserve to. M > Sorry it has taken me so long to reply. Busy busy. At the risk of > stroking > the obvious, let me put it this way. We live in an age of specialization, > not only in literature but in nearly every field of human endeavor. > Perhaps > it has always been so, since the "beginning," waiting only for the > accumulation of knowledge, i.e., the introduction of difference--something > that must have occurred veerrry early in man's history. Charles > Bernstein's > "Writing and Method," whatever else it intends, serves as an excellent > overview of specialization within the realms of philosophy, literature, > and > the systemic power of writing in general. Authors and editors with a > distinct point of view, an "identity," have a better shot not only at > solidfying an audience base, but at posterity as well. As far as I can > tell, > most of the mags from our past that have stood the test of time-- thus > far--utilized this strategy, at least in their initiation, e.g., BLAST, > The > Objectivist, L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E, various political journals categorized as > liberal, conservative, socialist, etc., etc. Aesthetics escapes neither > politics nor the marketplace which are always twined together in any > event, > and that includes poets, poems, professors, publishers, critics, and all > the > rest involved in the intellectual economy, the distribution and > preservation > of intellectual product. Canny specialization makes movement through the > marketplace, any marketplace, that much easier. None of this diminishes > the > love of art, the value of art, the desire to make art of any kind. > Nothing > in my original post suggests it did. Nor is there any overt suggestion > that > I prefer either journals that "gather" (perhaps more democratic), or those > that practice exclusionary tactics for the sake of processing a clear > identity. It seems clear to me that without specialization, we wouldn't > have > 19th century British Romanticism, symbolism, impressionism, expressionism, > surrealism, Futurism, Modernism, and on and on. It is quite possible that > we > wouldn't have a literary history at all, at least in the sense of > something > that evolves. Of course if an editor's strong point of view is identical > to > that of a hundred other mags so inclined, that probably won't work either. > As for the term "good," unless we're referring to civic virtue which might > evince some objective standard (at least a consensus), the term is awfully > subjective in the area of aesthetics (which creates standards only to > break > them, which is "good" in my view). In art, it is probably true that the > adjective "good" indicates an objectification only when it is applied to > work > that has survived. ARTWORK-->unique enough to pass the test of > time-->GOOD. > That middle part is strategic, if anything is. > > As a sloppy Romantic myself, I admire your idealism. May the texts that > are > you and I survive somehow, somewhere. Best, Bill > > WilliamJamesAustin.com > KojaPress.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 14:33:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Romana Christina Huk Subject: request for posting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Administrators, I'm a member of the list, but one with problems posting due to multiple addresses on my messages as they emerge from UNH's server. Would you please poet this call from my colleague, as well as another one that I'll send in just a few moments? I'm sure they'll be of interest to members of the list. Very best wishes and thanks, Romana Huk ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: "Caroline Bergvall" To: Subject: Perf. Research for both lists Date sent: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:53:50 +0100 ******* Apologies for any Cross-Postings Performance Research 'Translations' Vol.7 No.2 (Summer) 2002 CALL FOR CONTRIBUTIONS 'Translations' will be Volume 7, Issue 2 of 'Performance Research' and = will be jointly edited by Ric Allsopp and guest editor Caroline Bergvall. Deadlines are as follows: Proposals 15th September Finalised Copy 15th November 2001 Publication Date June 2002 'Translations will be the second issue of a volume on 'Textualities: scores, documents and archives (PR Vol.7, Nos 1-4, 2002) which considers the changing nature of performance texts and relations between writing, textuality and performance in four related issues: On Editing, Translations, On Fluxus and On Archives and Archiving. 'Translations' (PR, Vol.7, No.2) considers the role of translation in = the transmission of languages, texts and performance, a role which is both complex and paradoxical. Translation is traditionally associated with questions of monolingualism, national identity and literary heritage = rather than with questions of exchange and shared influence. Translators are = often seen as subservient and invisible mouthpieces. Yet at the heart of translation is an operation of double vision. The translator is located in-between languages and is caught up in the messy and punctual business = of handling language and cultural difference. Incompatible and non-translatable details are just as crucial as assimilable elements. Translation asks for a reassessment of the way we view and interpret cultural differences, verbal and performative materials. The editors invite contributions that explore the notion of traffic and exchange between cultures, between languages, between media. = Translations of performance, language and the transformative body, experimental = literary translations, plurilingual and multivocal pieces, code switching, new literacies, work which is concerned with erasure, appropriation or dissimulation, are all areas for consideration. We are interested in proposals for visual and textual work that makes = use of the resources of the pages, and in work that may use several versions = of a text. We are interested in scores and other performance documents, interviews, discussions, proposals for review essays of performance, digital, time-based work and books, and in collaborations between = artists and critics. The issue will be co-edited by Ric Allsopp, one of the three editors of Performance Research, and Caroline Bergvall - a practicing writer who = has published works and collaborated on mixed-media pieces that explore = notions of locatedness, language use and bilingual circumstances. Most recently, 'Goan Atom'. Her critical work is similarly concerned with contemporary translation and plurilingual identities. Caroline Bergvall is Associate Fellow at Dartington College of Arts (England). Potential contributors are invited to discuss their ideas in advance of submission with the editors by email: (Caroline Bergvall) or (Ric Allsopp) . We actively welcome submissions on ANY area of performance research, practice and scholarship. Proposals and articles will be accepted on hardcopy, disk or by e-mail and should be sent to: Performance Research c/o Dartington College of Arts Totnes Devon TQ9 6EJ UK email: Submission of an article to the journal will be taken to imply that is presents original, unpublished work not under consideration for = publication elsewhere. By submitting a manuscript, the authors agree that the = exclusive rights to reproduce and distribute the article have been given to the publishers (Taylor & Francis / Routledge). ******* ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C123E6.3C32D8A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

*******
Apologies for any=20 Cross-Postings


Performance = Research
'Translations'
Vol.7 No.2=20 (Summer) 2002

CALL FOR CONTRIBUTIONS

'Translations' will = be Volume=20 7, Issue 2 of 'Performance Research' and will
be jointly edited by = Ric=20 Allsopp and guest editor Caroline Bergvall.

Deadlines are as=20 follows:

Proposals        =         =20 15th September
Finalised=20 Copy          15th November = 2001
Publication Date        June=20 2002

'Translations will be the second issue of a volume on=20 'Textualities:
scores, documents and archives (PR Vol.7, Nos 1-4, = 2002) which=20 considers
the changing nature of performance texts and relations = between=20 writing,
textuality and performance in four related issues: On=20 Editing,
Translations, On Fluxus and On Archives and=20 Archiving.

'Translations' (PR, Vol.7, No.2) considers the role of = translation in the
transmission of languages, texts and performance, = a role=20 which is both
complex and paradoxical. Translation is traditionally=20 associated with
questions of monolingualism, national identity and = literary=20 heritage rather
than with questions of exchange and shared influence. = Translators are often
seen as subservient and invisible mouthpieces. = Yet at=20 the heart of
translation is an operation of double vision. The = translator is=20 located
in-between languages and is caught up in the messy and = punctual=20 business of
handling language and cultural difference. Incompatible=20 and
non-translatable details are just as crucial as assimilable=20 elements.
Translation asks for a reassessment of the way we view and=20 interpret
cultural differences, verbal and performative = materials.

The=20 editors invite contributions that explore the notion of traffic = and
exchange=20 between cultures, between languages, between media. Translations
of=20 performance, language and the transformative body, experimental=20 literary
translations, plurilingual and multivocal pieces, code = switching,=20 new
literacies, work which is concerned with erasure, appropriation=20 or
dissimulation, are all areas for consideration.

We are = interested=20 in proposals for visual and textual work that makes use
of the = resources of=20 the pages, and in work that may use several versions of
a text. We = are=20 interested in scores and other performance documents,
interviews,=20 discussions, proposals for review essays of performance,
digital, = time-based=20 work and books, and in collaborations between artists
and = critics.

The=20 issue will be co-edited by Ric Allsopp, one of the three editors=20 of
Performance Research, and Caroline Bergvall - a practicing writer = who=20 has
published works and collaborated on mixed-media pieces that = explore=20 notions
of locatedness, language use and bilingual circumstances. = Most=20 recently,
'Goan Atom'. Her critical work is similarly concerned with=20 contemporary
translation and plurilingual identities. Caroline = Bergvall is=20 Associate
Fellow at Dartington College of Arts = (England).

Potential=20 contributors are invited to discuss their ideas in advance = of
submission with=20 the editors by email: (Caroline Bergvall)
<c.bergvall@btinternet.com&g= t; =20 or  (Ric Allsopp) <transomatic@orange.net>.
We=20 actively welcome submissions on ANY area of performance = research,
practice=20 and scholarship. Proposals and articles will be accepted on
hardcopy, = disk or=20 by e-mail and should be sent to:

Performance Research
c/o = Dartington=20 College of Arts
Totnes
Devon TQ9 6EJ  UK
email: <performance-researc= h@dartington.ac.uk>

Submission=20 of an article to the journal will be taken to imply that is
presents=20 original, unpublished work not under consideration for = publication
elsewhere.=20 By submitting a manuscript, the authors agree that the = exclusive
rights to=20 reproduce and distribute the article have been given to = the
publishers=20 (Taylor & Francis /=20 Routledge).

*******

------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C123E6.3C32D8A0-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:48:20 -0700 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: motherhood poetry gospels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey Rachel--- There's at least one great poem in Dorothy Trujillo Lusk's new OGRESSE OBLIGE that deals with the prejudices she felt were hurled at her by the enlightened "alternative" scene for choosing to have a child.... at least that's how i read it.... c Rachel Levitsky wrote: > From Cassie Lewis: > > As far as judgements about her parenting etc, it is all about speculation, > isn't it? So why then the need for evidence? I have a distaste for holding > parents responsible for anything and everything, as though their lives > stopped when they had kids, and by extension as though there weren't a > bigger social context for Plath's depression. > > >From me, Rachel: > > Mothers are just women, yes? > > Yes, in fact I am trying to figure out why so many women, single, lesbian, > married etc, my age (35-40--yes I am many) are popping out little ones with > great enthusiasm. After having so many choices does it seem like the only > one? Or do we do it cuz we can? Or is it an act of mimesis. i don't think > women could possibly believe they'd be more valued by the culture as > mothers. > > And speaking of the culture, did any of you read the article in the Business > section of yesterday's (Friday, Aug 10) Times about the "Bully Broads"--a > group that women execs are sent to by their male bosses when they are deemed > too tough. It's like a corporate gulag or AA where you must see and confess > the error of your ways in order to begin to progress toward gentleladiness. > Is the power of the corporate entity in getting these women to these groups > to reform and confess just monetary? (Not to mention the funeral for > feminism)(BTW--it takes place in bay area) > > Lastly on the topic of culture--I just read this book by Rene Girard call > The Scapegoat and am wondering if anyone has read it too. He finds in the > Gospels the first major text that provides the tools for the culture to > begin to move away from violent epiphanies by making them obvious. Is he a > catholic or a pacifist? > > Would love feedback on Girard: Levitsk@attglobal.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 13:57:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: deep image In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 12:27 AM -0700 8/14/01, George Bowering wrote: >By the way, I am having trouble with the phrase, "source of your >ridicule." If indeed, I were doing some ridiculing, I would have had >to say that I was the source of the ridicule, and that he person >mentioned was the target of the ridicule. George, Think of the source as the deep image behind your statement. While we're on the topic--in my poetry workshop this summer everyone admitted that they couldn't really understand what deep image meant re: poetry. It was one of those big confessional moments that bonded everybody. Since you're so word-wise, can you explain it? Thanks. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 11:53:08 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ammonides@AOL.COM Subject: table of contents as mosh pit Comments: cc: kenningpoetics@hotmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Patrick Durgin, editor of Kenning, said, in response to my mention of my son and his friends starting a punk band: "No, they're not. With the wealth of edutainment pieces now available on the (more or less) simulataneous socio-political phenomena of punk, more and more kids are figuring out what a damned proposition "starting a punk rock band" is." This is interesting (I take it Durgin is alluding to cultural field theory and the folly of position-taking gestures in an ideologically overdetermined and appropriated field)... Could it be said, too, that in the more or less simultaneous socio-political phenomena of "avant-garde"/experimental writing, that young, post-Language editors are beginning to realize what a damn proposition they have gotten themselves into by starting a "radical" literary magazine? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 09:46:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Argento Series sighting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi Everybody, Those of you with access to the Bay Guardian, check out the latest issue--page 37-38. There's a sizeable article about Kevin Killian's new Krupskya book, Argento Series. The article is half interview, half--what? Tribute? Discussion? Those of you who don't live in the Bay Area--let me contextualize--one hardly ever sees any reference to the local poetry scene in the media, so this is an astonishing manifestation. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 10:20:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: owner-realpoetik@SCN.ORG Subject: RealPoetik Ian Griffin of GreenBean Press has been sending out these nice samplers of GBP offerings, and this one included "Domesticity" from the chapbook Love-Hate Continuum by Mark Terrill. Available for $5ppd. (CHEAP) from Green Bean Press, P.O. Box 237, NYC 10013. GreenBean does a lot of interesting stuff, and you can order or view their list directly at: http://home.earthlink.net/~gbpress click the Wing-Ding link: http://grimshaw.jeff.tripod.com/wingdingwebpage.htm Domesticity Im in the pantry just off the kitchen getting a cup of rice my wife and her sister are sitting at the kitchen table looking at snapshots talking about cats not just any cats cute little kittens I set aside the measuring cup my hands fly to my head pressing my temples there among the jars and cans was that me in that whorehouse? was that me crashing that motorcycle? was that me sniffing those amyl nitrates? was that me in the slammer with my pants pissed full? was that me and my buddy drinking beer snorting coke and getting blow jobs while watching Ironsides on TV? cute little kittens I pick up the cup dip it in the big bag of rice hear the dry rustle of the grains check the measure against the light. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 13:44:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: request for posting In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Romana Huk Writes: <> I reply: What a beautiful typo. If only we could poet more calls from colleagues, we'd all be in better shape. JGallaher ----------------------------- J Gallaher Metaphors Be With You . . . ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 20:05:04 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: A couple of things MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nate a point of emphasis here, I meant the book is _a lot_ better than nothing, the work you've both done is worthy of respect and praise, but I also thank you for your 'misrepresentation' of whatever it is you imagine my views to be. Best David Bircumshaw ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nate and Jane Dorward" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 8:15 PM Subject: Re: A couple of things > David: thanks for your praise--glad to know the book is "better than > nothing". I have heard that there is even social class in Kansas. And I > know that all representations are also from another point of view > misrepresentations. Unless of course the other point of view is yours or > Andrew Duncan's. > > all best --N > > Nate & Jane Dorward > ndorward@sprint.ca > THE GIG magazine: http://www.geocities.com/ndorward/ > 109 Hounslow Ave., Willowdale, ON, M2N 2B1, Canada > ph: (416) 221 6865 > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 15:21:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: request for posting In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Huk's post came through to me in a curious but delightful shade of turqoise -- anybody else have that on their screen? If that's the result of address problems, I wish we could all have such problems -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 15:09:08 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Re: Artdealer Fable 1920 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of { brad brace } > Subject: Artdealer Fable 1920 > The year of 1920 had been a particularly bad one for > American art dealers. [....] Ford finally understood. "But > gentlemen," he exclaimed, "what would I want with the > original pictures when the ones right here in these books > are so beautiful?" And so Henry Ford, the wealthiest American in 1920, took the million of dollars he could have spent on purchasing the art works and sent the money instead to Adolf Hitler, who then organized the Nazi party and aped Ford's own anti-Semitic political ideology (http://www.flinet.com/~politics/antisemi/internat_jew.html) in writing _Mein Kampf_. Then with Ford's money, money not spent on art work, Adolf built a war machine with retooled German Ford plants, slaughtered European Jews left and right & pillaged the face of Europe with materiel produced at Ford's plants with Jewish slave labor (http://usis.kappa.ro/USIS/Washington-File/500/98-12-04/eur504.htm), and stole the art work represented in Ford's book. Ford was then able to purchase the art work at a deep discount, and was awarded the highest Nazi civilian medal for his contributions to the Nazi state. Afterwards Ford promptly fell asleep in his modest easy chair (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/nazicars30.htm). And so Ford asked himself, "Can I make even more money with my interests in anti-Semitism, art, and Nazi Germany?" And so the US went to war with Germany. And then the American tax payers shelled out millions of dollars to pay Ford for war materiel, which were then used to blow up German Ford plants. And then the US Government via tax dollars from American pockets compensated Ford for the loss of their German plants at rates far higher than the value of the plants. And so Ford was able to make even more money, help "answer the Jewish Question," and get his art for cheap. The art work was never traced back to Ford. And so Henry Ford Lived Happily Ever After. Best, Patrick Sorry Brad, no offense meant towards you; I'm not trying to dis you in the least. It's just that Henry Ford is just about as infamous a character as they get. The realities make a strange ending to this parable, don't they? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 19:56:00 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: edit, editors, editing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >John Donne was only rediscovered by T.S. Eliot in the early 20th century. I've a lot of sympathy for what is being said here but the above statement is just not true: Donne always retained a certain 'currency', Coleridge for instance was well aware of him, and from about the 1890's on he was creeping back into fashion. I'm sure for instance people like Herbert Grierson were just as much respomsible for his 're-promotion' as TSE. Best David Bircumshaw ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcella Durand" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 7:28 PM Subject: edit, editors, editing > I guess you could say that I have a knee-jerk reaction to anything > resembling a capitalist-consumer-production process when applied to poetry. > To me, part of the art & publishing of poetry is presenting an alternative > to current systems, or, as Thoreau put it (I'm paraphrasing), we should let > our poetry be an obstacle to the giant wheel of "progress." While it would > certainly be nice to have some benevolent patron out there pay us for all > the time we spend on poetry and publishing, with no demands on what we > produce, the spiritual costs are too high, generally, for producing work to > "sell." You enter the system. That so many people on this list publish for > the pure love of it presents an important opposition to the current general > consumer-tied mode of publishing. I currently work in the magazine industry, > and believe you me, editorial content is very much affected by advertising, > circulation and consumption. > > Also, I very strongly disagree with "good" artwork as that which has stood > the test of time. This idea has been used to justify the existence of the > current white-male-dominated canon. Many poets have recently been > "rediscovered" who were lost for various reasons--racism, sexism, publishers > going out of business, current events, etc. John Donne was only rediscovered > by T.S. Eliot in the early 20th century. And as another example, Elizabeth > Stoddard's novel, The Mogensons, was published just as the Civil War broke > out; as a result, the novel was lost for decades, and is only being > rediscovered now--or at least was rediscovered by an English teacher of > mine. Also, I can think of a few authors who "survived the test of time" who > didn't really deserve to. > > M > > > Sorry it has taken me so long to reply. Busy busy. At the risk of > > stroking > > the obvious, let me put it this way. We live in an age of specialization, > > not only in literature but in nearly every field of human endeavor. > > Perhaps > > it has always been so, since the "beginning," waiting only for the > > accumulation of knowledge, i.e., the introduction of difference--something > > that must have occurred veerrry early in man's history. Charles > > Bernstein's > > "Writing and Method," whatever else it intends, serves as an excellent > > overview of specialization within the realms of philosophy, literature, > > and > > the systemic power of writing in general. Authors and editors with a > > distinct point of view, an "identity," have a better shot not only at > > solidfying an audience base, but at posterity as well. As far as I can > > tell, > > most of the mags from our past that have stood the test of time-- thus > > far--utilized this strategy, at least in their initiation, e.g., BLAST, > > The > > Objectivist, L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E, various political journals categorized as > > liberal, conservative, socialist, etc., etc. Aesthetics escapes neither > > politics nor the marketplace which are always twined together in any > > event, > > and that includes poets, poems, professors, publishers, critics, and all > > the > > rest involved in the intellectual economy, the distribution and > > preservation > > of intellectual product. Canny specialization makes movement through the > > marketplace, any marketplace, that much easier. None of this diminishes > > the > > love of art, the value of art, the desire to make art of any kind. > > Nothing > > in my original post suggests it did. Nor is there any overt suggestion > > that > > I prefer either journals that "gather" (perhaps more democratic), or those > > that practice exclusionary tactics for the sake of processing a clear > > identity. It seems clear to me that without specialization, we wouldn't > > have > > 19th century British Romanticism, symbolism, impressionism, expressionism, > > surrealism, Futurism, Modernism, and on and on. It is quite possible that > > we > > wouldn't have a literary history at all, at least in the sense of > > something > > that evolves. Of course if an editor's strong point of view is identical > > to > > that of a hundred other mags so inclined, that probably won't work either. > > As for the term "good," unless we're referring to civic virtue which might > > evince some objective standard (at least a consensus), the term is awfully > > subjective in the area of aesthetics (which creates standards only to > > break > > them, which is "good" in my view). In art, it is probably true that the > > adjective "good" indicates an objectification only when it is applied to > > work > > that has survived. ARTWORK-->unique enough to pass the test of > > time-->GOOD. > > That middle part is strategic, if anything is. > > > > As a sloppy Romantic myself, I admire your idealism. May the texts that > > are > > you and I survive somehow, somewhere. Best, Bill > > > > WilliamJamesAustin.com > > KojaPress.com > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 15:38:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Re: edit, editors, editing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed first: >Not to be offensive but in my books it doesn't count as "editing" if >you >don't reject anything. >The reason for a firm editorial hand is that one is, as an editor, > >implicitly acting as an advocate for the poets included, which means > >providing a compelling vehicle for their work. & that requires that >one >try as hard as possible to make the magazine consistently >good-->consistently wonderful if at all possible. Readers will pick and > >choose among an issue's contents, certainly, but it's the editor's job > >to make that a pleasurable as opposed to frustrating experience. then: >Jim--thanks for the clarification. I don't think it especially changes >my >point. My own policy with _The Gig_ has been "no unsolicited >material", >but I've had nonetheless to also turn down solicited work >sometimes: >definitely not fun to do but it seems to me unavoidable & >essential to the >whole enterprise. then: >Jim--I would imagine most editors start up a magazine because they >want to >publish work they're enthusiastic about. I'm not sure I >understand why >it's culpable of them thus not to publish work they >have no enthusiasm >for. I look forward to reading THE GIG at my first opportunity. An editor is one voice in the vacuum. So, is a magazine about an editor and editor's enthusiasms? Is it really about "the editor?" Or about contributors, poems, readers. To readers, whatever an editor thinks is "consistently good, consistently wonderful" could be seriously less so. Readers separate vanity projects from important literary contributions. You may believe your magazine is perfectly wonderful and the last word on poetry, you may think you are doing everything the "essential" way. I reject that there is any one "essential" way to run this enterprise. People are free to read or not to read my magazine, they will decide whether it matters or what I do "counts" as editing. I challenge magazine editors to challenge themselves-- advocate more work, open your mind and magazine to new kinds of poems, because, fuck YES, you are culpable, as I am, for the work we turn away. --JB ----Original Message Follows---- From: Nate and Jane Dorward Reply-To: Nate and Jane Dorward To: Subject: Re: edit, editors, editing Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 19:29:22 -0400 Glad for Robert Archambeau's pointer to his editorial on anthologies, though I might demur a bit at a few things. First, because rejection is not the same as omission: the former is the province of a magazine editor, the latter of an anthology editor (that is, most anthologies contain reprinted work selected by the editor at leisure from a poet's oeuvre, while the editor of a magazine has no control over the quality of hitherto unseen submissions). Second, the Ellmann/O'Clair Norton anthology is hardly unedited or indiscriminate...as a comparison with the Hoover anthology might suggest, considering the virtual nonoverlap between the two. Third, there are good reasons for including in anthologies work the editor may not like--as I once remarked I think Spenser's _Shepherd's Calendar_ is awful but if I were editing an anthology of Renaissance verse it would be in there. Little magazines respond to entirely different imperatives. all best --N Nate & Jane Dorward ndorward@sprint.ca THE GIG magazine: http://www.geocities.com/ndorward/ 109 Hounslow Ave., Willowdale, ON, M2N 2B1, Canada ph: (416) 221 6865 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 17:03:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jennifer calkins Subject: Re: The Swell Edit In-Reply-To: <14519131.997433994311.JavaMail.imail@loosy.excite.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Andrew Maxwell mentioned the journal "Cabinet"--any suggestions for where I could pick up a copy? jen __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 17:44:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: deep image In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >At 12:27 AM -0700 8/14/01, George Bowering wrote: >>By the way, I am having trouble with the phrase, "source of your >>ridicule." If indeed, I were doing some ridiculing, I would have had >>to say that I was the source of the ridicule, and that he person >>mentioned was the target of the ridicule. > >George, > >Think of the source as the deep image behind your statement. While >we're on the topic--in my poetry workshop this summer everyone >admitted that they couldn't really understand what deep image meant >re: poetry. It was one of those big confessional moments that bonded >everybody. > >Since you're so word-wise, can you explain it? > >Thanks. > >Dodie Oh, God, Dodie. Remember back in the sixties when Rothenberg and Kelly and Schwerner were trying to tell us about it? It just drove me crazy; I think I kind of just glazed over because at the time i didnt want to have anything to do with deep. i mean I didnt want any Freud, and i didnt want any avoiding the damned surface of the text, etc. I wonder whether there has ever been anyone who could explain it. -- George Bowering Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 17:45:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Argento Series sighting In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Hi Everybody, > >Those of you with access to the Bay Guardian, check out the latest >issue--page 37-38. There's a sizeable article about Kevin Killian's >new Krupskya book, Argento Series. The article is half interview, >half--what? Tribute? Discussion? > >Those of you who don't live in the Bay Area--let me >contextualize--one hardly ever sees any reference to the local poetry >scene in the media, so this is an astonishing manifestation. > >Dodie Please, I am sure there are lots of us who would like to see that; can you scan it? -- George Bowering Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 13:01:33 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath Dark and Light thoughts from A LOVELY LAND MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Goerge. I think neither of us would encourage or talk in ways that "glorified" suicide. But there is this: neither of us has actually been "in that space" in our heads so to speak, where we actually go from that or thru that state to taking our own lives. Love and fear - healthy life or live loving fear keep us from suicide. On the face of it, Plath's situation is not the sort that one would think "justified" suicide. And some of the people she associated with didnt help - or did they - I dont think that Lowell and even Hughes or Alvarez did Plath much good. It can be very horrible alone with children, the one person one loves highly having (you feel) abandoned YOU (I mean one - not you George) ...and I suppose the fact that she did commit suicide shows the loneliness coupled with the antidpressants she was taking (that hadnt began to be effective) are reasons. One could build a University course around suicide its causes, the rights and wrongs. I''m 53, have "acheived" far less, feel like death every morning, am over weight, and the very dogs do bark at me as I descant: yet like the doctor in the story about the storm at sea in the Sommerset Maugham story (when he, the old doctor, is amazed that the young man with all to lose is revelling in the storm while he with less life is terrified!), get up, grimace at my own image, read eg now I finally began Perec's "Life, A User's Manual", (I like Perec, a humorous and cunning fellow), stagger to the bathroom, eat a grapefruit, look at the ugly face in the mirror..talk to my cat that is always nearly killing me by tripping me up, then burst into crazy song for no one to hear! This "issue" obsseses me as I came close myself and also my son lost his eye courtesy of the NZ Police and also we have a high youth suicide rate in "Lovely GREEN LITTLE OLD NEW ZEALAND..." get THAT bullshit propaganda out of you're mind if its there this place is a madhouse! Read some NZ Lit and some poetry even by the Curnows (Wystan and Alan) and Alan Loney, or Michelle Leggott (although her work has despite the tragedy of her gradual loss of sight has a joie de vivre and Wystan's "Cancer Diary" is strong I'd say) or my friend Scott Hamilton or Hamish Dewe or Jack Ross or Michael Arnold to DISPEL THAT STUPID CRAP the NZ TRAVEL BASTARDS PROPOGATE: daily it's a struggle. Mein Kampf Our Kampf: not of Hitlers but humans. But how do tyrants become so: suicides become so? How? NZ has its share of the dark AND the light. Maybe we suffer from being too aware: too intelligent, even the most "stupid" of us...60 million years of dinosaurs that didnt even need intelligence! What's God playing at if he's there!Gott: thou art a loon! A black loon. A malevolent Laocoon...No: think cheerful thoughts Richard. Cheers to all, Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Bowering" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 12:10 PM Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath > > > > I think that we are social animals and that in most cases we are, though > >ultimately self responsible, we have strong links to others and those links > >are essential to our survival. So, in general, nihilism leads nowhere. So > >our best approach as writers would be to encorage self-responsibility and > >put out as many positive messages about life: which is overall marvellous, > >given the darknesses, and, if possible "tough out" or overcomne any negative > >thinking. Richard. > > Twould be hard to disagree with that. I figure that if you think that > your own life is yours to do with as you want to, you have a tight > egotism that is not open to hearing anything that is beyond what one > knows right now; pretty sad, I agree. > -- > George Bowering > Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 01:41:49 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: edit, editors, editing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/15/01 2:39:08 PM, MDurand@PRIMEDIASI.COM writes: << Also, I very strongly disagree with "good" artwork as that which has stood the test of time. This idea has been used to justify the existence of the current white-male-dominated canon.>> I certainly agree with your second sentence. But this is a moral argument and not an aesthetic one, unless we believe that only good people make good art, or that art that survives through a corrupt system is de facto bad art. <> If they were rediscovered and preserved, then they passed the test, right? Like a student who rarely shows up for class but still aces the exams. I also am of the opinion that certain members of the "canon" don't belong there. But that's my point. It's only my opinion. How can we define "good" beyond an expression of personal preference. The test of time no doubt involves dirty business, but it's still objective in the sense that for some reason or other, certain texts survived. Take care, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 22:15:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Tranter Subject: Guano-sniffers -- Don't try this at home! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Recently "owner-realpoetik@SCN.ORG" posted to the list, inter alia: "? was that me crashing that motorcycle? was that me sniffing those amyl nitrates? " Nice post -- I really enjoyed it -- but no, please: it's amyl nitrite, not amyl nitrate. I grew up on a farm and I dread to think what amyl nitrates -- if they exist -- would do to you -- surely they must be some kind of guan0-derived fertilizer, crudely refined from sex-crazed fruit bat excreta? What happens if you inhale that stuff? Is there a chemist in the house? best, John Tranter, Editor, Jacket magazine ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 09:13:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michael g salinger Subject: Detroit happenings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE On September 14th the first ELECTRIC POETRY FESTIVAL will occur in conjunction with THE DETROIT FESTIVAL OF THE ARTS. The show will begin at 8 p.m. in the historic SCARAB CLUB, 217 Farnsworth, Detroit, MI. The festival features three highly touted poetry bands: SPOKE - a five-piece ensemble from Hamtramck, MI that features poets Renee Tambeau and Kim Webb. SPOKE will be releasing their new compilation book / CD, Sw'elegant (Ridgeway Press, $15). M.L. Liebler & The Magic Poetry Band - a four-piece, widely traveled act fronted by local poet M.L. Liebler. The Magic Poetry Band will be releasing their new CD, Paper Ghost Raindance (Blue Boundary Records, $15). Special Guest Faruq Z. Bey will be accompanying the poetry band. Al Hellus & The Plastic Haiku Band - a six-piece jazzy outfit who have released one CD, Raw Haiku. They will feature special guest Monica Rico. The event is sponsored by City of Detroit Cultural Affairs Department and Michigan Council for the Arts, The YMCA of Metro Detroit Arts and Humanities, and The Scarab Club. Explore this exciting new genre And witness another Detroit first. There is a suggested donation of $5 and seating is limited so please arrive early. All ages are welcome and the event will be simulcast on the world-wide web (www.ymca-artsdetroit.org). Call (313) 831-1250 or (313) 365-7551 for further information. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 11:20:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: occupation (on the road) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII = this was done to occupy a space this occurs only on an email list in the space of an email list within the zone of the list the list zone this was done as an enunciation there is always a place for this enunciation: as soon as it appears its pleasure! this was done a great while ago a long time ago this was written before you were here inscribed before your presence an inscription waiting for your arrival without knowledge of your arrival without the perspicacity of your knowledge this already has been and occupied its space this grants you the power of the witness you are that witness of the space you are that witness "alan enters" you are that witness _ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 11:38:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: m&r..,,Anti-Plath.. ..Corp....Buenos Aires...worthless ..patacon....Patacombo..planned.meal....two cheeseburgers (coke) frenchfries... ..Patacombos with patacon..not...change...pesos... ..Azurix..Aguas...Telefonica..Telecom...partial pay...SA... ..$130 billion ..2005...2.06..75.25..JPMORGANCHASE&CO...23.3...low.. ..patacons are a piece of paper.. ..400million...STANDARDASSETMANAGEMENT...Miami..aggravates..fundamental..unsustainable.. ..taxes...McDonald's...rid ..Patacombo meal for 5 pesos ($5)...3.99 pesos Big Mac...meal ..slow...Marcela...help... Dr.$$n... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 13:30:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Levitsky Subject: Re: edit, editors, editing In-Reply-To: <71EAF6EBA863D2119C4F0008C74CA78E032610DC@PSI-MS1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Applause to this Marcella. The delight of the poet is how off she is. Behalf Of Marcella Durand Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 2:29 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: edit, editors, editing I guess you could say that I have a knee-jerk reaction to anything resembling a capitalist-consumer-production process when applied to poetry. To me, part of the art & publishing of poetry is presenting an alternative to current systems, or, as Thoreau put it (I'm paraphrasing), we should let our poetry be an obstacle to the giant wheel of "progress." While it would certainly be nice to have some benevolent patron out there pay us for all the time we spend on poetry and publishing, with no demands on what we produce, the spiritual costs are too high, generally, for producing work to "sell." You enter the system. That so many people on this list publish for the pure love of it presents an important opposition to the current general consumer-tied mode of publishing. I currently work in the magazine industry, and believe you me, editorial content is very much affected by advertising, circulation and consumption. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 10:55:21 -0800 Reply-To: arshile@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Salerno Organization: Arshile: A Magazine of the Arts Subject: Fiction & Creative Writing Courses in LA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Colleagues: If enrollments are reached, I'll be teaching the following two courses this Fall at West Los Angeles College: English 127: Creative Writing English 211: Fiction. The Fiction will be an introductory survey of short and long prose works, wildly varied in scope. The Creative Writing will be an introductory workshop covering poetry, prose and drama. These are credit courses and transfer as such to the UC and Cal State systems. Three units each. If you know of anyone who might be interested, I encourage you to pass along this information. Classes begin August 27th, but students can register before, during and sometimes after that date. Better to get in early, though. Also, I know that many of us here have very good ideas on the teaching of these subjects. Anyone who would like to make suggestions should feel free to b/c me. Thank you. Mark Salerno West Los Angeles College 9000 Overland Avenue Culver City, CA 90230-3519 Admissions and Registration: 310-287-4501 http://www.wlac.cc.ca.us/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 12:23:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Arielle Greenberg Subject: Re: Cynthia Plaster Caster In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear Dodie, Very interesting stuff you had to say, and I will definitely check out your piece. It was hard to tell from the documentary whether the work itself was interesting at all, but the film did show some castings taking place and THAT, the process, was very interesting, because of the way the men reacted (often with a lot of shame/terror/guilt/arousal -- a wide mix of emotions but it was an obviously intense moment for them). I'm not feeling articulate enough (I just got out of my last day of teaching an 8-hour a day course) to really explain why I think that was so interesting, but I did. The work itself seemed much less so. In the film, Cynthia came off as really sweet and in some ways kind of wholesome, I thought...despite herself. And sorry if you got the impression that I think women's art -- sexual or not -- has to be feminist. I absolutely don't. I brought it up somewhat out of context, because I neglected to mention that in the film they have Camille Paglia come on at various intervals to pontificate on the feminist significance of the work. Which just made it ripe for discussion, not "true." I would love to see that documentary you have. I'm just fascinated by the whole groupie thing. Again, too exhausted now to figure out why. Sorry. Anyway, thanks for writing back. Best, Arielle __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 15:50:51 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ammonides@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Free beer Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ray Bianchi said, "a question just moved to Princeton NJ. looking for poets to socialize with, anyone open? First beer's on me." Dear Mr. Bianchi, Do you mean you want poets to come to Princeton to socialize with you in person, or do you mean you want them to come to Princeton via email? I can't come to Princeton in person because I'm on an island near Turkey, but if you meant the invitation in the pen-pal sense, I will gladly accept your money order (convertible) for $1.50. Write me if the latter, and I'll send you my mailing address, accompanied by a letter about poetry, and a money order for $7.25, which I believe is the price of a draft of Bud Light on Nassau Street in Princeton. Ammonides ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:08:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: owner-realpoetik@SCN.ORG Subject: RealPoetik Arlen Humphries Arlen, one of our favorite poets, lives and works in "a large, Eastern metropolis." Send comments, death threats, etc. to RealPoetik, and we pass'em on. We asked Arlen for more bio info, and he responded: "BUY MY BOOK YOU BLOODY POSEURS!!! Optima Suavidad, ISBN 1-891-408-08-9, $9.95 (cheap)." "Try to understand," she said. "You're a man, I'm a woman. We're just too different." New Year's resolutions: Stop drinking, Stop smoking, Stop having sex for money. Anyway, that's how I was raised and it never affected me. Famous Last Words: "Hey Guys, Watch this!" Whereas now, spacemen are going about gathering words like "melancholy" and putting them in sacks. Hi. I'm Marisa Varga for Endall. I used to hang around airports asking if I could search people's bags for drugs. It was a good way to get cheap drugs. I thought of having a family but I've never seen any I liked. It's like those moments just before a car crash. Someone tells you "You have no idea what's going to hit you," and they're always right. Well, that was interesting though I'm not under oath. The eyes blink, the lips move, but the brain, like Elvis, has left the building. Arlen Humphries ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 09:43:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: devineni@RATTAPALLAX.COM Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dialogue=20Through=20Poetry=20Week=20=26=20UNESCO=27s=20World=20Poetry=20Da?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?y?= In-Reply-To: <71EAF6EBA863D2119C4F0008C74CA78E032610DC@PSI-MS1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Everyone: Larry Jaffe, Antonieta Villamil, UNSRC Society of Writers and I are going= to be working with the UN to help continue the Dialogue program started in March 2001 and setup readings in celebration of UNESCO's World Poetry Day. We would once again like your help in organizing readings in your city or town to celebrate these occasions from 17 March to 24 March 2002.= World Poetry Day is on 21 March. We are working on another reading at the United Nations building in New York City and have support from Noble Laureate Wole Soyinka. The week of programs will be called "Dialogue Thro= ugh Poetry and World Poetry Day." The focus will be "building a culture of peace and non-violence" through poetry. We hope you are interested and look forward to hearing from you. If you need a copy of the letter from UNESCO, please email Larry Jaffe at jaffe@dialoguepoetry.org or visit ou= r site at http://www.dialoguepoetry.org Larry Jaffe and Antonieta Villami will be coordinating all of the events around the world, so please contact them if you have any questions. Below are the others programs for 2002. (2) Poetry on the Peaks We are working on another program called "Poetry on the Peaks" which wil= l continue the UN's Dialogue Among Civilizations Through Poetry program sta= rted this year. Poetry on the Peaks will happen next year and will celebrate the UN's International Year of Mountains. The goal of the program is to setup poetry readings on mountaintops around the world and corresponding readings in cities nearby. The readings will happen throughout 2002 and will increase awareness of pressing environmental and social issues and promote cultural heritage of mountain societies around the world. So far,= I have commitments from Mr. Gordon Janow with Alpine Ascents Internationa= l based in Seattle and Eric Simonson with International Mountain Guides bas= ed in Portland. Together they will read poems on most of the mountaintops li= sted on our website. Pulitzer Prize winning poet and mountain-climber Gary Sny= der (over 70-years old) may climb the Alps next spring 2002 and read a poem on behalf of this program. The preliminary list includes the Seven Summit= s (tallest mountains on each of the seven continents). (3) Neruda on Mercury In conjunction with Poetry on the Peaks, I have petitioned the Working Gr= oup for Planetary System Nomenclature to name a crater on Mercury after the distinguished poet--Pablo Neruda. Information about the program can be found at http://www.dialoguepoetry.o= rg and information about the UN's International Year of Mountains can be fou= nd at http://www.mountains2002.org Thank You, Ram Devineni Program Coordinator -------------- Hola: Larry Jaffe, Antonieta Villamil, la Sociedad de Escritores UNSRC y yo, Ra= m Devineni, vamos a continuar trabajando con la ONU para ayudar a fortalece= r el programa del Di=E1logo que tuvo su etapa inicial en el 2001. Estamos p= reparando las lecturas en celebraci=F3n del D=EDa Mundial de la Poes=EDa declarado = por la UNESCO. La propuesta es que nos ayudes a organizar lecturas en tu ciudad para celebrar estas fechas del 17 al 24 de marzo de 2002. El D=EDa Mundia= l de la Poes=EDa es el 21 de marzo. Estamos planeando otra lectura en el ed= ificio de las Naciones Unidas en Nueva York con el apoyo del Premio Nobel Wole Soyinka. Esta semana de lecturas se llamar=E1 "Di=E1logo a trav=E9s de la= Poes=EDa y D=EDa Mundial de la Poes=EDa". El enfoque est=E1 centrado en "construir= una cultura de paz y no-violencia" a trav=E9s de la poes=EDa. Esperamos que t= e interese este programa y esperamos noticias de tu parte. Si necesitas una copia de= la carta de UNESCO, por favor env=EDa tu direcci=F3n electr=F3nica a Larr= y Jaffe a jaffe@dialoguepoetry.org A continuaci=F3n enumero otros programas para 2002. (2) La Poes=EDa en las CimasYo estoy trabajando en otro programa llamado = "La Poes=EDa en las cimas" que continuar=E1 con el Di=E1logo Entre Civilizaci= ones A trav=E9s de la Poes=EDa iniciado por las Naciones Unidas. La poes=EDa e= n las Cimas comenzar=E1 el pr=F3ximo a=F1o y celebrar=E1 el A=F1o Internacional= de las Monta=F1as declarado por la ONU. La meta del programa es organizar lecturas de poes=ED= a en las cimas de las monta=F1as alrededor del mundo y realizar lecturas en= las ciudades cercanas a dichas monta=F1as. Las lecturas se realizar=E1n a= lo largo de 2002 y se enfocar=E1n en aumentar conocimiento y hacer presi=F3n= acerca de los problemas medioambientales y sociales y promover la herencia cultu= ral de las sociedades cultivadas en las monta=F1as alrededor del mundo. Hasta= el momento, se han comprometido con el programa el Sr. Gordon Janow con Alpine Ascents International basado en Seattle y Eric Simonson con Gu=EDa= s Internacionales de la Monta=F1a basada en Portland. Ellos leer=E1n poemas= en la mayor=EDa de las cimas de las monta=F1as, listado en nuestro website. = Nuestro Premio Pulitzer el poeta y alpinista Gary Snyder (mayor de 70-a=F1os) sub= ir=E1 a los Alpes en la primavera de 2002 y leer=E1 un poema en nombre de este= programa. La lista preliminar incluye las Siete C=FAspides (las monta=F1a= s m=E1s altas en cada uno de los siete continentes). (3) Neruda en Mercurio En conjunci=F3n con Poes=EDa en las Cimas, he soli= citado al Grupo Activo para la Nomenclatura del Sistema Planetario, para nombrar= un cr=E1ter en Mercurio con el nombre del distinguido poeta--Pablo Neruda= . Puedes encontrar informaci=F3n sobre este programa en http://www.dialogue= poetry.org e informaci=F3n acerca del A=F1o Internacional de las Monta=F1as declarad= o por la ONU en http://www.mountains2002.org Gracias, Ram Devineni Coordinador del Programa ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 03:21:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: YOU a.poem.of.human.potential Comments: To: wryting , imitationpoetics@topica.com In-Reply-To: <0.1600034025.93394724-738719082-997560472@topica.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit INTENTION // BRIEF DESCRIPTION http://www.daemen.edu/pages/ggatza/you/ Can a poem still hold real meaning for a large audience given the medium versus the media? The idea was to take a relevant poem off of the page, print it on objects and place them around a large, actively populated area. This would have the reader engage a poem, in all of its disgusting glory, on a form that would be easy to digest and reflect the area it was in. This blends a garden walking tour with a fun house, having exhibits of a large poem, having no real beginning or real ending, [as in traditional literature, this negates the linear narrative] operating as one over a large space so the reader could engage the poem from any angle. This method also allows for multiple meanings and readings as all interactive texts have differing entry and exit points. The Daemen campus offers a unique situation to hold this installation. There are no major advertising campaigns on the campus to compete with; for all the right reasons, of course. There is not one billboard, placard, or flashing light selling anything. Although there are the never ending parades of leaflets heralding "credit for all" with low introductory rates for uninformed freshman. Be this as it may, the poem can operate on its own, in a media sanitized area. The poem is about the potential nature of the human spirit. This is the common narrative for poetry, but it is central to who we are and are not; as individuals and as a society. Sentiment is present, but it is not smarmy ... The poem is no longer a relevant object of expression because it cannot compete, in true capitalist arenas. This is not to say that poetry is not a viable format. I believe that if poetry was not a lawful obligation, or a required course of study, it would be relegated to the poorly-lit sections of the arts & craft shop. There are many causes for this ... one being the proliferation of the sound bite and the flashing image. This should not be perceived as a stumbling block, but rather as a source for inspiration. Dollar signs being true indicators of success in the marketplace, the poem is not a worthy investment. Jewel did ok, but is this good poetry? Her true media is as a recording artist, she has a hook. All good media needs a hook. Hip hop offers the most optimistic outlook for performance language, as it can incorporate all levels of media to heighten its message. For this reason, there is a an accompanying soundtrack mixed by Edwar Manikhout. On the tour, pop this into your personal CD player and let loose. The CD will be available at the galley and on the website for download as MP3. The poem is about the potential nature of the human spirit. It is good and it is not good. It calls for amelioration. This is not your fathers poetry. Avant-Pop artists and their pirate signals promoting wild station identifications are ready to expand into your home right now, just log on, click around and find them. It's all up to YOU, the interactive Avant-Pop artist/participant. Postmodernism changed the way we read texts. The main tenet of Postmodernism was: I, whoever that is, will put together these bits of data and form a Text while you, whoever that is, will produce your own meaning based off what you bring to the Text. The future of Avant-Pop writing will take this even one step further. The main tenet that will evolve for the Avant-Pop movement is: I, whoever that is, am always interacting with data created by the Collective You, whoever that is, and by interacting with and supplementing the Collective You, will find meaning Mark Amerika, "AVANT-POP MANIFESTO" http://www.daemen.edu/pages/ggatza/you/ Geoffrey Gatza editor BlazeVOX2k1 http://vorplesword.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 03:29:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: in this field is the amelioration of the workplace Comments: To: "Imitationpoetics@Topica. Com" , julie buxton , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit //You. a.poem.of.human.potential Daemen College August 24, 2001 - September 10, 2001 http://www.daemen.edu/pages/ggatza/you/ in this field is the amelioration of the workplace Brave World a mindless, materialistic existence a modernized society should produce, and produce you do Brave World wondrous open sky a giving of self a mindless relinquishing placing order where none envision a cooperation based system a swift and friendly revolution, or you can stick with coercion. this has worked well http://www.daemen.edu/pages/ggatza/you/ Geoffrey Gatza editor BlazeVOX2k1 http://vorplesword.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 04:30:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: Webarteroids -- poetry and computer games In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 10:35:10 -0700 > From: cadaly > Subject: Re: Webarteroids -- poetry and computer games Sorry for the obscenely long delay in responding. Wanted to respond when I had a new version up. Took longer than I thought. But, then, I take it you have a dev company e.g, Catherine, so you know all about it. Fresh webarteroids at http://webartery.com/webarteroids > are you going to track words killed into "shoot 'em ups" of > poems? or, you > could reward accidentally typing radiOS... Part of the idea of this one is not just to substitute this or that with that or this (e.g asteroids with letters/words) but to explore the literary possibilities of the various forms that suggest themselves in this sort of situation as capaciously as possible. There's a difference between making gestures in the direction of letters or words and doing a literary computer game. I haven't really addressed yet the issue of the actual texts I'll use. I'm still building the code. This happens often with the textually interactive (and sometimes 'unfinished'--in Eno's sense) stuff I make. I'm thinking about the possibilities of/for the texts all the time, but building the engines first and seeing them in action before I do a 'final' text is quite useful as preparation for the writing. Finally it makes for a better text than putting the text first, though there are times when I do that too. I'm working on a feature that allows you to write the text. Texts will be savable in the next rev. That's in Canto 2. Perhaps some people will copy/paste the texts they end up with and send them to me for possible inclusion in the game. Tis a writing challenge to the great Poetics writers. Regards, Jim Andrews http://vispo.com http://webartery.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 14:09:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: claity@DREW.EDU Subject: essays on defining modernism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Modernists of the Poetics list, The MSA issue of Modernism/Modernity (8:3) containing articles on a range of approaches to defining modernism at this pivotal moment of its renewal will be out in a few weeks. The essays consider modernism and: classical ritual (Ed Comentale) mid-Victorian (Jessica Felsman) avant-garde film (Susan McCabe) the "witnessing" of world war (John Whittier-Ferguson) its marketing as a critical enterprise (Jennifer Wicke) its contradictory meanings across generations, disciplines and within the same fields (Susan Stanford Friedman) I list the table of contents below. If you are interested in learning more and were not a member of MSA in 2000, please contact me privately for more information. Best, Cassandra Laity T.O.C. MSA issue of _Modernism/Modernity_ (8:3) "Definitional Excursions: The Meanings of Modern/Modernity/Modernism," Susan Stanford Friedman (University of Wisconsin) "Appreciation/Depreciation: Modernism's Speculative Bubble," Jennifer Wicke (University of Virginia) "'Delight in Dislocation': The Cinematic Modernism of Stein, Chaplin and Man Ray," Susan McCabe (University of Southern California) "Modernism's Victorian Bric-a-brac," Jessica R. Feldman (University of Virginia) "The Liberation of Gertrude Stein: War and Writing," John Whittier-Ferguson (University of Michigan) "Thesmophoria: Suffragettes, Sympathetic Magic and H.D.'s Ritual Poetics," Edward P. Comentale (Indiana University ----- End forwarded message ----- ----- End forwarded message ----- ----- End forwarded message ----- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 11:50:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: joke of the day Comments: To: webartery@egroups.com, POETRYETC@JISCMAIL.AC.UK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable according to the british Journal of Medicine Writer's cramp may be linked to obsessive-compulsive symptoms Frequent writer's cramp may be a sign of an obsessive-compulsive = personality trait, suggests research in the Journal of Neurology, = Neurosurgery and Psychiatry.=20 Writer's cramp is provoked by specific tasks, including writing, and is = characterised=20 tom bell =3D<}}}}}}}}}****((((((((&&&&&&&&&~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Metaphor/Metonym for health at = http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm Black Winds Press at = http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/blackwin.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 11:56:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: on a somewhat more serious note- Comments: To: webartery@egroups.com, POETRYETC@JISCMAIL.AC.UK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The medium and the message: Eyes and ears understand differently, = Carnegie Mellon scientists report in the journal Human Brain Mapping written and read verse differ? gestural and visual also? tom bell =3D<}}}}}}}}}****((((((((&&&&&&&&&~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Metaphor/Metonym for health at = http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm Black Winds Press at = http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/blackwin.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 12:23:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: laurie macrae Subject: Rachel,motherhood, poetics? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sorry, Rachel. You're right about my being platitudinous. We too (my generation)were activists and feminists, though not very interesting dressers, relying primarily on hair to signal our tribe. I think, however, I understand you better than you think I do. It's only condedescending if you take it that way. As for poetics, you brought it up on this list so it must effect your poetics. You are personalizing the dilemna you describe by limiting it to your own age group; like suggesting that the experience of identity crisis is exclusive to 40 year olds. Women and MEN equally suffer the > "Oh-my-god-I-forgot-to-have-children" phenomenon. For some people it is an essential identifier, signal that one is an adult now, willing to take on societal reponsibilities. Of course a lot of poeople AREN"T adults or ready. You are of course right that respect from the culture is complex, and manifested in dubious ways. And I'm sure you limited your examples to save us all some time. But parenthood is very hard work for most of us who don't have access to nannies and drivers. We all hold scars attained in this endeavor and it puts some years on the body. This isn't about whether or not some nice guy helps you with the stroller. It's strenuous and messy, and requires shlepping, in your city and in every small town, ghetto, suburb and ethnic enclave. If you forego parenthood because it's hard work you are probably not parent material. The social rewards have to do more with joining the group who share the responsibilities of adulthood; trying to nurture good men and women and make a better world for them to live in. I know this must sound like greeting card sentiments from old radicals to you. Sorry I can't do better, but this is no place for irony. Yeah, there seems to be a social abyss in this country between the people with kids and without. That's not true in Mexico where I have lived, and it is less true(again) in the poor ethnic enclaves of America. A general lack of willingness to meet your neighbors, entertain, celebrate, seems to mark this moment in American social history. Not the fault of your generation! But it sucks. We should all have more parties. There is no key to understanding why one would want to be a parent, anymore than why one would not want to be a parent. But, yes, we can, and that makes it hard to ignore. Especially, perhaps, if you have tested the waters,as you and your friends have, in other areas of self fulfillment. There was a "movement toward motherhood" in my then enclave, Berkeley, in the late 60's and early 70's. In part we were tired of battling the forces of evil and wanted to build a new world upon the not-quite- ashes of the old. Alternative communities,alternative families and alternative methods of child rearing, home schooling, all were considered part of making the revolution. I know this has all become fodder for bad movies, but I let you decide how successful we were. Laurie __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute > with Yahoo! Messenger > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 16:45:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: Guano-sniffers -- Don't try this at home! In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20010816220735.013e1758@pop3.norton.antivirus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII John Tranter posts about nitrites, which are practiced out in fields by naked Druids, and such. Seriously, I always found chemistry illiteracy funny too. In a tattoo mag a few years ago I came across art, covering the guy's entire upper arm, of an alien creature which was ingesting many sorts of recreational drugs: it was clutching pills, it had a needle sticking out of it, and it was breathing from a tank prominently marked "NO2." Here on our planet, nitrous oxide is N2O; what nitrogen dioxide might do to lungs is left as an exercise for the reader. And this was on this guy's ARM! Gwyn McVay, Typo Snob ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 13:47:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: peter culley Subject: argento series sighting Comments: cc: George Bowering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable George-- the Bay Guardian website has the whole article up, and its excellent. = I'd give the URL but I'm bad at entering them. bests, Pete ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 17:03:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Re: The Swell Edit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit jennifer calkins wrote - > Andrew Maxwell mentioned the journal "Cabinet"--any > suggestions for where I could pick up a copy? Cabinet has a web site at , which includes profiles of all issues to date. It's a very high-production magazine with an impressive breadth of reference; I strongly recommend it. Issue no. 1 contains prose by Tan Lin, a piece by Christian Bok on inventing alien languages for Star Trek, a CD insert (including Bok's rapid performance of Schwitters' Ursonate, as well as works by Charles Bernstein and Steve McCaffery), a piece on Oyvind Fahlstrom and invented language, work by Xu Bing, and something of especial interest for readers of Spicer: an article on the 19th century psychic Helene Smith, many of whose trances "took her to the planet Mars" and were issued, with translation by the spirit Esenale, in Martian: Dode ne haudan te meche metiche Astane ke de me veche... dode, this; ne, is; ce, the; haudan, house; te, of the; meche, great; metiche man; Astane, Astane; ke, whom; de, thou; me, hast; veche, seen... Chris Christopher W. Alexander poetics list moderator ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 17:05:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Re: argento series sighting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Culley wrote: > the Bay Guardian website has the whole article up, and its excellent. = > I'd give the URL but I'm bad at entering them. The SFBG article on Kevin's book is available at . Christopher W. Alexander poetics list moderator ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 13:53:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: Cynthia Plaster Caster In-Reply-To: <20010815192324.76051.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 12:23 PM -0700 8/15/01, Arielle Greenberg wrote: >And sorry if you got the impression that I think >women's art -- sexual or not -- has to be feminist. I >absolutely don't. I brought it up somewhat out of >context, because I neglected to mention that in the >film they have Camille Paglia come on at various >intervals to pontificate on the feminist significance >of the work. Which just made it ripe for discussion, >not "true." Arielle, No, I didn't get the impression that you thought women's sexual art had to be feminist. But, in discussions of CPC, the issue of feminism constantly crops up. She has repeatedly denied a feminist impulse in the work, one of the things I find most interesting about the work. Her explanation of why she started the work--so she could "get laid" by rockstars, is rather wonderful. I think it refreshing, a woman having private obsessions that don't have to be rationalized with a feminist patina. But, then I do think CPC's work has feminist implications, outside her intent. I also thought that her work was interesting and of import--whether or not I personally liked it. My liking it or not liking it seemed beside the point. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 22:12:48 +0100 Reply-To: Robin Hamilton Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: edit, editors, editing Comments: cc: "david.bircumshaw" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "david.bircumshaw" > >John Donne was only rediscovered by T.S. Eliot in the early 20th century. " I've a lot of sympathy for what is being said here but the above statement is just not true: Donne always retained a certain 'currency', Coleridge for instance was well aware of him, and from about the 1890's on he was creeping back into fashion. I'm sure for instance people like Herbert Grierson were just as much respomsible for his 're-promotion' as TSE " Well, there is the one Coleridge poem, "iron bound bands" (or whatever) -- and I think Browning also mentions him. But he mostly vanished for hunners of years. > and from about the 1890's on he was creeping > back into fashion. I'm sure for instance people like Herbert Grierson were > just as much respomsible for his 're-promotion' as TSE. Well, yes, Grierson was obviously crucial -- Grierson's 1912 edition was the first decent one of Donne since the 1633 [just] postumous edition. But Eliot picked up on him via Grierson's _Metaphysical Poets_ anthology of 1923, in the TLS review, and there he spent more time on Marvell than Donne. [AND later {the anglo-catholic Eliot} renaged, and said Herbert [spit] wrote better religious poems than Donne.] But yes, you need a combination of editors [Grierson] plus critics [Eliot]. Few do both -- except maybe Yeats editing AND writing on AND imitating Blake in his poetry. Robin Hamilton (Not to speak of the Alexander Pope rewrites of Donne's Satires in the 18thC. And the non-Donne poem in Palgrave. AND Donne only sneaks into Sam Johnson's _Lives_ via Cowley.) ASIDE: Dave, next time we meet, remind me, and I'll give you a copy of my edition of Donne.) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 16:34:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: edit, editors, editing In-Reply-To: <71EAF6EBA863D2119C4F0008C74CA78E032610DC@PSI-MS1> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Also, I very strongly disagree with "good" artwork as that which has stood > the test of time. Marcella, Don't you think that "the test of time" is at least *one* way of identifying good artwork? The thought is, I think, that over time, fashion doesn't survive -- pretty flashes, little signals, etc, likewise perish -- but good artwork holds meaning for generations. This kind of 'good' artwork balances carefully between temporal applicability and long-term ('universal') significance. I know, I know, we of the corrected ideologies resist the idea of universal meanings, trans-cultural significances, etc. But don't you think that there are some 'good artworks' that do 'stand the test of time'? I mean, at the very least, and in careful application, isn't it a legitimate measure? > This idea has been used to justify the existence of the > current white-male-dominated canon. Let not your assessment of a principle be overwhelmed by your righteous (and right) disgust at its abuses. I concur with Michael Magee that Kasey's post on greatness was very helpful. Thanks. -Aaron Belz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 18:26:59 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Re: Guano-sniffers -- Don't try this at home! Comments: To: jtranter@JACKET.ZIP.COM.AU In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20010816220735.013e1758@pop3.norton.antivirus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Amyl nitrites AND amyl nitrates are both used for heart medications. Nitrite NO2, Nitrate NO3. The poppers are the exclusive domain of the nitrite, as you say. Pop, whiff. Apparently even doctors make this nitrite/nitrate typo all of the time & apparently with little consequence since both amyl nitrite and amyl nitrate are both effective treatments for angina with similar action pathways. Little consequence, I say, unless the recipient is on Viagra and amyl nitrAte and already has heart problems. Amyl nitrAtes are also excellent enhancers of diesel engine ignition. Engine, hearts. Primarily both, I believe, are vasodilators (dilate your vasculature, lowering your blood pressure). The use of nitrAte on angina was an early experimental pharmacological breakthrough, back in the 1860s I believe. I think it was the fist success to arise from the field of Experimental Pharmacology. Amyl nitrate is not inhaled, I believe, but taken sublingually. It usually comes in the form of Isosorbide Mono- or Dinitrate tablets. Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of John Tranter > Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 1:15 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Guano-sniffers -- Don't try this at home! > > > Recently "owner-realpoetik@SCN.ORG" posted to the list, inter alia: > > "? was that me crashing that motorcycle? was that me sniffing those amyl > nitrates? " > > Nice post -- I really enjoyed it -- but > > no, please: it's amyl nitrite, not amyl nitrate. > > I grew up on a farm and I dread to think what amyl nitrates -- if they > exist -- would do to you -- surely they must be some kind of guan0-derived > fertilizer, crudely refined from sex-crazed fruit bat excreta? > What happens > if you inhale that stuff? Is there a chemist in the house? > > best, > > John Tranter, Editor, Jacket magazine > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 17:06:14 -0800 Reply-To: arshile@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Salerno Organization: Arshile: A Magazine of the Arts Subject: Re: Fiction & Creative Writing Courses in LA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I should have included the following info about these courses. Sorry. English 211: Fiction Section 0457 Meets Saturdays 9:30 a.m. to 12:35 p.m. English 127: Creative Writing Section 3435 Meets Fridays 6:00 p.m. to 9:05 p.m. Mark > From: Mark Salerno > Organization: Arshile: A Magazine of the Arts > Reply-To: arshile@earthlink.net > Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 10:55:21 -0800 > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Fiction & Creative Writing Courses in LA > > Dear Colleagues: > > If enrollments are reached, I'll be teaching the following two courses this > Fall at West Los Angeles > College: > > English 127: Creative Writing > > English 211: Fiction. > > The Fiction will be an introductory survey of short and long prose works, > wildly varied in scope. > The Creative Writing will be an introductory workshop covering poetry, prose > and drama. These are > credit courses and transfer as such to the UC and Cal State systems. Three > units each. > > If you know of anyone who might be interested, I encourage you to pass along > this information. > Classes begin August 27th, but students can register before, during and > sometimes after that date. > Better to get in early, though. Also, I know that many of us here have very > good ideas on the > teaching of these subjects. Anyone who would like to make suggestions should > feel free to b/c me. > > Thank you. > > Mark Salerno > > West Los Angeles College > 9000 Overland Avenue > Culver City, CA 90230-3519 > Admissions and Registration: 310-287-4501 > > http://www.wlac.cc.ca.us/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 21:30:12 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "j.letourneux" Subject: Re: plath/suicide Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" While I love Plath, I've always felt R. Grantham's anagram of "Suicide Off Egg Rock" was at moments more correct than the original poem -- more precise, and therefore better and more "well-standing." Ha ha. Of course, Sylvia knew what she was doing, but her poem wasn't able to articulate this quite as well as a computer-informational programming technique placed in the hands of a live thinker. But alas. Such is life, as it were. Naturally, the Ouija board provided her with "more fun than ... movie[s]" in her travels to the Colonies. To her great credit, I should add. To the guilty sentiments I feel at replacing her words with another's, I sometimes respond with the obvious annulation, "the letters are the same." Tha anagram follows, apologies to those (many) of you who've already seen this and similar productions. "SUICIDE IN FITZROY ROAD Seldom had she known a morn that freezing, Not here in London. Still before the crack of dawn she rose, Haggard, ravaged afresh from within, walking to the kitchen To perform a last rite. Plates of oven-baked cookies, Glasses of milk, off down the passage To the children's bedroom as they slept - a loving look, A last supper. Gravely she shut her babies' door, Plugging the gaps with towels and tape - the housekeeper Shall find them safe. Traipsing back to the cruel stove, She moved a knob and, face cloth-swaddled, Finally knelt before that sacrificial altar. Her crippled mind swirled furiously. The fighting without Had sharpened the fighting within, toward that brink After the wretched break-up. Swamped now By anguish and fatigue, the fuddled soul finally summoned The ghost of resolve: there would be no more begging. The acrid gas curling back about her, Her agitated brain grappled with dreams, pondered echoes, Babbled itself into dizziness, and at last Acquiesced to blessed release." -- Richard GRANTHAM ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 16:03:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: book. second go. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - book. second go. the relationship of consciousness to the world vis-a-vis structure, abstraction, symbolic systems. but the relationship of consciousness to its inscription: who is inscribing: the quasi-logical structure of the lifeworld. but which lifeworld, which state of confusion, which state of health: the potential for philosophical investigation through audio-visual and other media. but what style, what genre: whose investigation, what gender, what methodology, what deployment of desire: the natural order of structure. but what nature: whose nature: whose cooperation: whose corporation: but what contractuality: consciousness in relation to subjectivity. but what consciousness: what eidetic reduction: what cognitive mappings: what mathematical catastrophes: what tropes: virtual subjectivity and its relation to protocols, the imaginary, and linguistic performativity. but which protocols: whose imaginary against what inscription and whose thetic: but what languages and what mechanisms of performance/perforation: the entrapment and proliferation of detail in a partially-cooled universe between plasma and annihilation. but which inscription and which seal: but what decade and what millennium: but what substrate and cosmological constant: the orders and relationships among communication, communality, and sexuality. but what mind lost among them: fragility and specificity of operability and the human. but what goodness: but what taxonomies of errors, mistakes, phenomenologies of corrupted or failed teleologies, what judgments, what ethos: propositional logics and the elsewhere of the sheffer stroke and its dual. but whose withdrawal of the not-both-a-and-b, whose banishment of neither- a-nor-b: doubt and deconstruction of conclusions. but whose doubt against what standards and relativisms: what auguries of truth and denial: what obsessional neuroses: what ignorance, incoherencies: the scientific as that methodology among others, in spite of heuristic breakdowns and the problematic of mathematics. what crystalline mechanism inherent of the tractatus-logico-philosophicus, what neoplatonism, what conventions, inscriptive labor: the topology of intention and neurality in relation to externalized mind and memory. but what privilege of data-banks, whose computers, whose optical fiber, whose skein of satellites, what membranes and firewalls, whose hackings and what penetrations: partial-objects and partial-mappings as givens in the construction and reconstruction of the world. but of the gathering of accumulations and assemblage of fragments, of the clutter and a-historicity of the world: the use of cases, examples, anecdotality, perceptual modes, in relation to theoretical abstraction. what stories hidden with failures, ridden with failures, gaps in texts, hiatus, ignorance: what negations (there are none): what tales (they're all fiction): what parables (pretense!): exhaustion, defuge, and the wavering of existence in terms of the physical well-being of the body, as well as the deconstruction of that well-being. but what disease of the writer, what writing-disease: what textual wounding: what ending to what written world: what semantics, what syntactic endings: what writing: what loss of writing to the world: _ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 21:47:47 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: On Ashbery's Greatness MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Ashbery's Greatness: "In my own mind, I come back to the critics. A post-modernist avant la lettre, Ashbery foreshadowed, and later profited by, a style of thinking which refuses to privilege meaning and structure, rejects hierarchies of importance, saturates itself in culture and traditions but rejects the values the traditions uphold. Hence, I think, the excitement his work held for many people in the 1960s and early l970s. It seemed progressive, it seemed to cast off the 'shackles' of comprehensible meaning, it conveyed emotion without making clear what the emotion was or what it was about. It had the air of culture, but required no work, neither thinking nor feeling, of the reader. It was like the sort of political convictions that used to be called radical chic: making various sorts of pretension, but having no goal, finally, but to charm." - DM Black, from Issue 32 of Poetry London http://www.poetrylondon.co.uk/issue32.html#review The above quote is actually a less forgiving piece of an otherwise very kind critique of Ashbery's _Wakefulness_. I wonder whether we can say that meaning and narrative are the same thing...Ashbery to me seems to throw off the shackles of narrative in a way by using pieces of different narratives. As it appears we shift from one narrative to another in his work we are struck by a continuity of feeling but shifting subjects and objects. Is it fair to say then that Ashbery refuses to privilege meaning, or is it merely that he refuses to privilege narrative that is coherent only in terms of its subjects and objects and settings? From Girls on the Run (part III): But the wounded cow knew otherwise. She was at least sixty, had many skins covering her own, regal one. So then they all cry, at sea. The lawnmower is emitting sparks again, one doesn't know how many, or how much faster it will have to go to meet us at the Denizen's by six o'clock. We'd have been better off letting the prisoners stage their own war. Now I don't know so much, and with Aunt Jennie at my side we could release a few more bombs and not know it. Everywhere in the tangled schist someone was living, it seemed to say, this is my doing: whoever shall come afterward is a delusion. And I went round the corner to say, Well, it sure looks like an improvement--hey, why don't you tie your shoes, and then your bonnet will be picture-perfect? For me the narrative in this passage has the coherence of dreams: constantly shifting and always radically emotive. This is actually a quite meaningful passage but one that eludes meaning in the "story/linear" sense of meaning. We shift from land to sea and back to land, and our subject is a cow, then ambiguous, then the lawnmower, then someone obviously familiar named Aunt Jennie. There is the implication of struggle, exhaustion, confusion, imagination, and doubt everywhere in this passage. And I think that's the meaning that Ashbery as poet is trying to impart: that what Ashbery saw in Darger's work was in a way representative of all of the struggles, confusions, ambiguities and doubts in a life as a homosexual male before and after it was life-threatening to be openly gay (in many ways of course it still is dangerous, but perhaps nowhere as near as dangerous as, say, in the 1940s), recollecting his survival of the seeming holocaust of gays (AIDS), recalling his ways as a poet to speak of his ways in code, and the struggle to open up with his way of writing. In this book the narrator seems also an old man looking back at his own life, a remembrance provoked by witnessing Darger's illustrations of little girls with penises (re: sexually ambiguity, clearly not fitting into any oppressive male/female binary category, etc.) run away from people bombing them, the girls retaining some innocence. Perhaps the narrator sees all of this complexity bundled up into the work of Henry Darger, a man who was nothing but an artist. Nothing but an artist in the sense that Darger produced 25,000 pages of writing and illustrations and otherwise was a recluse, living only for his art and for his daily trips to church. The ambiguous sexuality, the suffering, the proliferation of one man's work, the lifetime choices of the artist, and the anticipation of death is all present in _Girls on the Run_. Obviously Ashbery was staggered by Darger's work in a number of ways, as in it perhaps he saw his own doubt, his own struggles, and his own end all right there, before him. And so perhaps Ashbery uses Darger's own language, pieces of his narrative, in order to convey his own broken difficult narrative and the jagged nature of its recollection. Is this an avoidance of meaning or just another way to deliver meaning other than storytelling? "Everywhere in the tangled schist someone was living, it seemed to say, this is my doing: whoever shall come afterward is a delusion." It's as if this is the author himself now speaking, admitting he is witness to a convoluted and layered life that reveals much about the present, while other things are in doubt. Perhaps this is the experience of sensing one's own forgetting in reflecting on the loss of past friends (much alluded to in the book), and that the people that come after those fading memories, including one's own present self, are as delusional as anyone's imagination. But we pop back in and out of Darger's text here, and I dare say this is rather typical of much of Ashbery's poetry. I see Ashbery's greatness (capital G) in this work, because he is able to employ divergent pieces of narrative in order to explain a set of complex and difficult emotions and experiences that are only as coherent as a human being can be. He pushes the boundaries of language through stretching and weaving the tethers of narrative, and through that stretching and weaving we are given a new universe, a new language. Is innovation enough for greatness (provided this is an innovation on Ashbery's part)? Or is it the seemingly flawless execution of such an idea? Or is this really just meaninglessness? _Girls on the Run_ closes with the following words that might again fit my discussion in a number of ways: Does this clinch anything? We were cautioned once, told not to venture out-- yet I'd offer this much, this leaf, to thee. Somewhere, darkness churns and answers are riveting, taking on a fresh look, a twist. A carousel is burning. The wide avenue smiles. Indeed we are cautioned many times not to talk of greatness. We are perhaps similarly warned not to try and nail down (even if we admit our subjectivity, which is certainly wise) what we imagine Ashbery's poems to be sharing with us. But here is life, the end of life, the dynamic in-between, the witness of destruction of innocence, and the openings of opportunities everywhere. But everywhere at least in _Girls on the Run_, there's more than charm, there's the emotional oscillation of lives spiraling. That is for me certainly greater than a great cup of coffee. Patrick Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org http://proximate.org/ getting close is what we're all about here! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 22:23:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: The rejection of you has been around for millennia. Comments: To: "Imitationpoetics@Topica. Com" , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit //You. a.poem.of.human.potential New Media Poetry Daemen College August 24, 2001 - September 10, 2001 http://www.daemen.edu/pages/ggatza/you/ The rejection of you has been around for millennia. He was original What Is Natural? This the Conquest of Bread Factories sketched his vision of free each according to his means obliterating all existing institutions. without a rule, used appearances a natural social order. The passion for creation is also a destructive passion the real laws of society do nothing with authority, but stem instead from the nature of society itself. nature of but stem instead from the nature of you without a rule, used This the Conquest of Bread He was original http://www.daemen.edu/pages/ggatza/you/ http://www.daemen.edu/pages/ggatza/you/ http://www.daemen.edu/pages/ggatza/you/ Geoffrey Gatza editor BlazeVOX2k1 http://vorplesword.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 12:26:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Vidaver Subject: The Poetics of Public Order Comments: cc: easter-island@sfu.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Some on this list may be concerned to discover that the RCMP, Canada's national police force, have, has, just insituted a Public Order Program in order to figure out how to make better use of "non-lethal defensive tools" (chemical spray weapons, rubber bullets, and tasers, mainly) during crowd control at political gatherings, demonstrations, marches, rallies. A spokesperson from the RCMP (Guy Amyot) states, "With all the violence going on we had to create a unit that could help us [with] providing security." The RCMP will work with other agencies such as CSIS (the Canadian Security Intelligence Service) to exchange information, conduct "threat assessment," and, no doubt, to track the activities of political groups and individuals under suspicion, including home visits and photo/video documentation of public gatherings "to ensure if something happens we'll know what happened so we'll have evidence for safety purposes" (Amyot). I'm finding that my current poetics is no longer able to appropriately respond to these astonishing provocations. Aaron Vidaver Vancouver ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 23:31:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Dark and Light thoughts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George and Richard, In my experience a little more or litle less of illness, infirmity, social discrimination, etc. is rarely involved in making the final choice. That is an individual choice which often appears to be related to others and it's impact on them. One hypothesis re SP that hasn't been noted is that shhe was aware of her problems and how they affected others and felt unable to change so killed herself to spare her children being raised by her. This may sound harsh and unfeeling to some but is as plausible clinically based on guesswork as some of the speculations I've seen in the literature. For me one of the interesting questions is how to judge the judgment of someone who is suicidal? Can someone who says they are going to kill themself be sane? This is not just an academic question as legally in my neck of the woods I can make that judgment. I do want to spologize to any who feel bothered by the discussion of this subject on the list,but I do feel as if I've gained by it. tom bell ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 05:52:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: Poetry in Brief... ..call it love cerveza ..sun fierce commas ..wind air their skin ..plunge it nothing to ..dusty gleam creotone ..babes a more ..1st magpie falls .dRn.. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 22:12:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lee ann brown Subject: Godfrey is God Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Dear B. E. Basan Read _Midnight on Your Left_ (The Figures) first then _Where the Weather Suits My Clothes_ (Z Press) and for the new one from the Figures I don't have yet see www.spdbooks.org I remember Lisa Jarnot did a great interview with him in Poetry Project Newsletter like 2-3 years ago - John Godfrey is like the secret New York poet we got to know when we moved here He rocks I have to run now - perhaps others can say more... Someone should make a folder for him on EPC if they haven't already Lee Ann >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 23:07:48 +0900 >> From: "B.E. Basan" >> Subject: Who is John Godfrey? >> >> Hi All, >> Is there any information out there about John Godfrey, even a preface? I= =3D >> can't find anything on the internet. Also, can anyone recommend one of =3D= 3D >> his books, I only have a few poems. >> Thanks, >> Ben >> >> ------------------------------ Lee Ann Brown Tender Buttons PO Box 13, Cooper Station NYC 10276 (718) 782-8443 home - (646) 734-4157 cell "Harmless amulets arm little limbs with poise and charm." =8B Harryette Mullen, Trimmings (Tender Buttons Books) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 13:58:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Bromige sighting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Margaret Belle Bromige, daughter of David & Cecilia, will have a brief speaking role on Days of Our Lives on Monday, August 20th. She is billed as Girl 1. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 06:57:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lisa jarnot Subject: john godfrey Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I did an interview with John Godfrey in the Poetry Project Newsletter in 1997 or 98. If anyone wants a copy I have some extras. Best, Lisa Jarnot ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 06:29:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Racism does not offer any solution to poverty Comments: To: "Imitationpoetics@Topica. Com" , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The source of being does not flow from our brains. Racism does not offer any solution to poverty You are the problem to most situations Creativity flows naturally from our own prejudices and conditionings beyond the limits of experienced joy nurtured from our inner being regardless of the dramas in our personal lives. We feel Satisfaction, hatred compassion, anger, harmony, health fear hinders growth. Then we can begin to know ourselves, ponder universal innocence The source of being does not flow from our brains. Racism does not offer any solution to poverty Racism does not offer any solution to poverty //You. a.poem.of.human.potential New Media Poetry Daemen College August 24, 2001 - September 10, 2001 http://www.daemen.edu/pages/ggatza/you/ Geoffrey Gatza editor BlazeVOX2k1 http://vorplesword.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:34:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: book. fourth go at it. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII _ book. fourth go at it. the relationship of consciousness to the world vis-a-vis structure, abstraction, symbolic systems. but the relationship of consciousness to its inscription: who is inscribing: veering back from the concern, blind ambition (see anecdotal) tending towards theoretical thwarting, return of the repressed - immersive and definable structures which are negotiations - irreversible or reversible - hierarchy of such structures - sets and arrows - categories - the implicate orderings of consciousness within all of this - the quasi-logical structure of the lifeworld. but which lifeworld, which state of confusion, which state of health: consideration of obsessional neurosis as the holding-forth of the world, radical deposition - the continuous need to inscribe, reinscribe - territorializations and assign- ations - not the theoretics of doubt but the analytic inability to take anything for granted - the potential for philosophical investigation through audio-visual and other media. but what style, what genre: whose investigation, what gender, what methodology, what deployment of desire: questions of periodization, extension of media on a continuous feed-forward basis, inextricably tied down to corporate research and development programs - weakening of them- atic thinking - the need to organization meta-methodologies of search / knowledge strategies - on the other hand the loosening of semantics through the muteness of audio-visual representations - the natural order of structure. but what nature: whose nature: whose cooperation: whose corporation: but what contractuality: the natural world under the sign of capital, in-corporation, em/bodiment of nature, the body politic, political body, structure transformed into performance, action - but the chaotic debris of the body - extensions of flesh - subtexting in which the dissolution of language is paramount, and always the problematic of the symbolic - what is the binding of standing-in-for if not already allegory, sign, inscription, intention - consciousness in relation to subjectivity. but what consciousness: what eidetic reduction: what cognitive mappings: what mathematical catastroph- es: what tropes: the jump cut from phenomenology to mathesis, suturing the subject for whom the book is written, the writing of explanation and description and the problematic situating both, the cusp catastrophe as that leap which creates structural extension, boundary, moving-on - the fold, leaping into the fold, the relationship of the fold catastrophe to the sheffer stroke and its dual - elsewhere of not-both-a-and-b tending towards the nomadic, exhaustion - the exhaustion of "the species" or "the organism" - planetary exhaustion, universal denouement - already present in the specter of death - wandering in the dual - neither-a-nor-b - virtual subjectivity and its relation to protocols, the imaginary, and linguistic performativity. but which protocols: whose imaginary against what inscription and whose thetic: but what languages and what mechanisms of performance/perforation: who is speaking for whom across avatars, first through other persons and tenses, what insistence carries the projection and project of consciousness across real and virtual networks, what of consciousness as such project, what of the peripheral imaginary, the imaginary always already at a loss against or through the symbolic, what of the symbolic as always already foreclosing, what of the toppling of the scheme of things, what of alterities, multiculturalisms, sloughs, symbolic emissions and spews, flows, the flooding of clutter and part-objects - spoken within or spoken-for by avatars - consciousness as dialectic among semantic emissions among subjects only some of which seem real - there are always the virtual among us - ghosts, emanants, kami - ectoplasms at the periphery - prosthetics, prostheses - who among us is cyborg cauterized by insertion of flesh or electronic diegesis - moving among cyborgs - all of us caught in virtual realities - the keywords absent, unknown - we exhaust ourselves avoiding death and its already equally exhausted aporia - we're drawn in and out of it - the entrapment and proliferation of detail in a partially-cooled universe between plasma and annihilation. but which inscription and which seal: but what decade and what millennium: but what substrate and cosmological constant: and what of the sweeping away of the diachronic, necessary for the therapeutic or functioning of the organism within this space, this imminency, annihilation at the limit taken to the level of the absurd- catastrophic, debris - we're huddled in relation to our own demise - we can smell the fear of it - the phenomenology of scent - nowhere and everywhere at once - the smell of a person indeterminate, unidentifiable, seductive - the procuring of death - writing and writing against it - the continuous evolution of writing into and out of it - writing oneself into existence - writing oneself out of it - the orders and relationships among communication, communality, and sexual- ity. but what mind lost among them: what sado-masochistic part-objects modeling the contractual contrast of the world, who are the communities that assemble consciousness out of linkages and couplings, out of contigu- ities and contingencies, what are the mathematics that operate within these fields such that the addition of a term in a chain may or may not affect that chain, and the withdrawal of a term in a chain may or may not transform the topology - what is the lure of a masochism in which all theoretics are abandoned - the organism at the limit of its existence - "i am still alive" - the shell or hull of the organism - the universal condition - fragility and specificity of operability and the human. but what goodness: but what taxonomies of errors, mistakes, phenomenologies of corrupted or failed teleologies, what judgments, what ethos: the constant collapse in the face of catastrophe, beginning and ending with ground zero, the null of physics politicized, culturalized, as the embedding of the focal-point within the aegis of any project of the subject - the implosion of infor- mation within and without the subject - think of the skein or membrane of the subject, subjectivity - network subjectivity, subjective networking - embedded survival - "i am still alive" - propositional logics and the elsewhere of the sheffer stroke and its dual. but whose withdrawal of the not-both-a-and-b, whose banishment of neither- a-nor-b: what of the stroke itself engendered as | in relation to the dual v, the stroke retaining the dissemination of division, the dual tending towards the problematic of the scapegoat and expulsion - the nomadicism of the disappearing map - the implosion of the map into the real - nomadic annihilation of landmark, fluid kinship entities, constant transformations - one might say survival "at any cost" - there are no universal discourses - no discourses of the universe - automated writing - the philosophical writing of/by the automaton - doubt and deconstruction of conclusions. but whose doubt against what standards and relativisms: what auguries of truth and denial: what obses- sional neuroses: what ignorance, incoherencies: the autobiography of the leap, short-circuiting or short-cutting ignorance, as if something could be made out of whole cloth, there are always strategies of apology, implications of humility, everything in the way, no clarity towards its absence - theoretical weakening, weak theory, as the shifting behind the scenes - think of the submerged philosophy of submergence in relation to extruded theoretical abstraction, pronouncement, death and facticity - the scientific as that methodology among others, in spite of heuristic breakdowns and the problematic of mathematics. what crystalline mechanism inherent of the tractatus-logico-philosophicus, what neoplatonism, what conventions, inscriptive labor: retaining the last vestige of ontology, giving existence a nearly-decomposable structure from groundwork to lifeworld, superstructure disconnections, proliferations of objects, elements, particles, things, organisms, universal constructs of contrasts and boundaries, boundaries maintenance, the general economy of inscription - episteme and ontology blurred - interpenetrations of regimes and domains - conventionalisms and idealities both subject to the same dis/ease of heuristic - bricolage or making-do in the world - this is hardly satisfactory for anyone - this is hardly the case of the world - the case of the world in relation then to the case of our being, dasein - the case of the world in relation to dis/ease - the topology of intention and neurality in relation to externalized mind and memory. but what privilege of data-banks, whose computers, whose optical fiber, whose skein of satellites, what membranes and firewalls, whose hackings and what penetrations: the future of networkings among multi-taskings, virtual realities, information wars, incandescent sexual hysterias, thickened communalities, and the relationships among these and other futures vis-a-vis theoretical abstraction and general accounts of cultural and universal creation - teledildonics and nodal bodies - voy- eurisms and exhibitionisms as inversions or dissolutions of entities, categoricities - the splayed or opened body - the body displaying or opening - the w/hole of the body - disruption or perturbation of percep- tion - the skeins of death and exhilaration - partial-objects and partial-mappings as givens in the construction and reconstruction of the world. but of the gathering of accumulations and assemblage of fragments, of the clutter and a-historicity of the world: the disappearance of history, resonance of ideological tendencies among historiographies, irrelevance of historical and theoretical recuperation, the loss of the world among the world - the absolute loss of the world in the future of the cosmos - writing/inscribing degree zero - the horizon of the uselessness of organism - continuous eroding of transcendence - grasping or cohering of imminence - the use of cases, examples, anecdotality, perceptual modes, in relation to theoretical abstraction. what stories hidden with failures, ridden with failures, gaps in texts, hiatus, ignorance: what negations (there are none): what tales (they're all fiction): what parables (pretense!): and in relation to the audience, what demographics following what core phenomena, core metaphors, what one might tell you of an evening in miami with grack- les scrabbling among scraps of food already evincing a symbolic construc- ted among all of us in crude parody of heisenbergian sheffer-stroke quasi- analytical approaches, as if the natural world were no longer problematic but a gift towards the understanding - or now, outside this hotel room #330 there are cartons of palm pdas on the landing - they have been there all day - some are opened, people are taking them - i imagine, idiotic- ally, vast supplies of drugs - they're payoff - everyone knows what's going on - right outside the window here - taken fearlessly - personal communications and informal economies - more and more networks opening up - you can see all of this from the window - i've drawn the shades - maybe witnesses conveniently disappear - imagination runs wild - one never knows - exhaustion, defuge, and the wavering of existence in terms of the physical well-being of the body, as well as the deconstruction of that well-being. but what disease of the writer, what writing-disease: what textual wound- ing: what ending to what written world: what semantics, what syntactic endings: from indo-european to the absence of the subject in the sentence, the absence of the eye and the shifter, the winding up of the winding- sheet and loosening of the world from language in relation to or in spite of natural kinds, rigid designators, performatives, proper names, who are alan sondheim, daishin nikuko, who are julu-jennifer - what wounding of informal economies - what disseminations - you can have any name you want - take any gender - it's all there for the asking - nervously looking out the window - who will be next - here in the motel room - what knocks on the door - emptied hallways - strangely quiet around here - but the dis/ease of writing - sound of keys - i can't stop this - the living representation of information society - at work on the network - what writing: what loss of writing to the world: such presumption that continuous production becomes closer to the thing, defines it, the "thing" or "it" or production, that the model of labor creates and forecloses among entities, that divisions and boundary phenomenology are somehow riddled with existence - always honing in - always flying apart - them- atic thickening, weakening - the philosophy in this book - this attempt or collocation of thought - this process of thinking - a kind of jabber- ing back and forth from systems of representation through structuralisms always nearly-decomposable, bricolaged, falling apart - writing ground down - inscription as well - into the abstraction of thought constantly retethered - the thinking of the return - nomadic homing-in - that of or within existence - that of the nought, cipher - of weyl's cartesian origin as the last vestige of the ego in mathematization - you can always locate from that point - sufficient vectors, orthogonal or not - giving thought the substrate necessary for reading - writing - returning to the apparatus or partial-objects necessary for this - most recently bought an antique glass pen - dip it in the ink, write for a third of a page or so - hand-blown - here working with components made in malaysia - the result of academic exchange - there are data-bases involved - obsolescences - atavisms and dead media - prosthetics even in the illumination of the screen (from before or behind) - what it is you are reading "this" in - a whole system of temporary equivalences, technologies - repetitions of databases - never forgetting a thing - _ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:17:40 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: my annual thank you MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Call me sloppy sentimental, but every once in a while I get the urge to publicly thank Charles Bernstein, Chris Alexander, and everyone else involved with the creation and maintenance of this List. I know I'm not the only one who appreciates what these folks have done for a motley community of artists. Thank you one and all. Best wishes always, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 21:18:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: In~~Re: table of contents as mosh pit Comments: To: "Patrick F. Durgin" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Patrick F. Durgin" wrote: > I suppose if I'm young (30, to be exact), and "post-Language" (which, in my > day to day living / working, makes little sense to me, as much as whatever > it is may bear on my circumstances or judgment), then so be it. > ............................... > My only regret is that "young" and "post-Language" too easily become tags > which, once spotted, keep the more timid of Kenning's potential audience at > bay. And so, they spend their hard-earned six bucks on a copy of The germ, > instead of twelve for one of each. > ------------------------------------------ Patrick, I don't think it's the "young" part ("See half the world maintains young Ganymedes!" --- Edward Thompson, "The Court of Cupid," 1770). Maybe I'm timid. I was one of those, in a sense, kept "at bay" with Kenning. In a sense, Durgin is "a necessary evil": an extremism that serves to define one pole of the spectrum. If you went away (counterfactual logic), someone else would have to become the hard-liner. I was glad to see your comic in the latest CHAIN, where you poke fun at your own masculinist heroism ("Would I be willing to die for the cause?" with brawny man hero cartoon in background). After initial enthusiasm over Kenning, I sort of backed away. I originally felt very in tune with your uncompromising stance. More recently, someone (a Founding Father) mentioned you, quoting Durgin-esque "anybody who has anything to do with ANYTHING WHATSOEVER is a capitalist defecter!!" (paraphrase) with a sort of jejune world-weariness as though tsk tsk tsk they bite the hand that feeds them tooth-shaped bubble gum. You seemed to call for an absolutism where not only was no middle-ground possible, but not even approaches ~within reach~ of the politburo ideal. Like the Talmudic idea of "a fence around the law": we cannot err even in the most trivial of ways, for fear that a relaxation of vigilance at the front lines endangers the Sanctum Sanctorum politick. Pretty damn close remains CAPITALIST ENEMY, Kenning-ethos, seemingly. Meanwhile (over 30, to be exact: "Me only cruel immortality / Consumes" --- Tennyson, "Tithonus," 1907-8), that definiteness looks different elsewhere, dubious. As far as words that I can or cannot say (I cannot say inaudible words)--- "Capitalist" is a term UNDER ERASURE, by virtue of The Fall of The Wall, the defeat of Soviet Marxism. It is ~impossible,~ from where I stand, to retain credibility and to invoke "Capitalist!" rhetoric. And the same critique is difficult to navigate, to re-circumscribe, using "free market." It is becoming increasingly unclear to me (presbyopia?) what this awful evil is that we're fighting against, Patrick. Sure, every teenage boy grown up into a feminist punching bag wants to be subversive, but--- subversive of what? subversive to what extent? Subversive like Samson, pulling roof down yanking pillars? At some point, it became clear to me: I'm too timid. I'm not prepared for chaos in the streets, in the halls, on the door mat, "revolution". That's SURVIVALIST, thinking you'll manage okay with a canteen of rations and a sandbag waiting out the Internationale. It was a remarkable paradigm shift, from aesthetic to poltical, and in so many other ways, but there was something ~incomplete~ in the Language critique, and I don't think we've managed a revaluation that's determined where those moth hole soft spots are, and what continues to stand, to motivate. Lately, I suspect it has something to do with pluralism, Language's tendency to monolithicize the dominant and hence to make resistance very untargeted and generic,--- whereas the political may have its real pressure points at an extremely LOCAL level, and globalism may serve dominance's end by diverting us to an abstracted political ether, now New Media instead of ~neighborhood.~ --- And I suspect, though unprepared to articulate, that there's something about IDENTITY that Language missed. In its ongoing, correct critique of the personal (as a screen that blocks the public-collective-political), it confused personal with identity. See--- again, not that you care but--- I find myself in the embarassing position of being an avant-gardist ~manque,~ a ~failed~ experimentalist. I ~thought~ I was being "cutting edge" (AUTOBIOGRAPHIA LITERARIA OF A COMPLETE FAILURE NOBODY'S EVER HEARD OF IN THE FIRST PLACE OR WOULD NOTICE IF HE DROPPED OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH depressiveness). But the problem was: I ~wanted to be published!~ The desire to be published kept me fashioning my styles by ~imitation,~ thinking well if the radicals won't accept me I could always maybe sneak through the middle-range into some college-sponsored journal or something . . . And I read too much, I think. Second Generation Language Poetry tends toward utter ~dilluteness~ of meaning, rather than destruction of meaning. The literary-political tactics of 1980 are rendered obsolete twenty years later, by the ever-changing nature of The Beast. And--- the main means of de-fusing that "capitalism" has is--- to ~absorb,~ to ~represent~ its opponent, to ~include~ (thus, the heart-rending Fence/Rebecca Wolff "problem": it's very difficult to take exception with them or irritate by condemning, because ~they're doing good work,~ in spite of it all). Dominance re-proposes that its enemy is its Alternative. There will be an ~Alternative~ festival of what used to be the unacceptable, the Barbarians at the gates. "Resistance," that Kenning means to stand for, might only be able to be accomplished by being ~un-reproducable~ within the conduits of "the system." I'm far from anti-academic and I think the extended longevity academia is giving Language is a good thing,--- it's significant that the unacceptability of Language Poetry found a weak chink, the curiosity of the academic intellect after the difficult-to-understand, and the compulsion to explicate, and that through that pore --- subcutaneously? --- it's perpetuating itself and has found a break in the fire wall that's forcing incorporation into what ~should~ be rejecting at as a foreign body, as its nemesis. The International Center for Photography presented Hans Bellmer's "puppe" (Ger.) doll parts series under a new explication: Bellmer resolved that throughout the Reich he would do no artwork that could be of service to the regime. And so, found something ~un-reproducable~ within the surrounding culture. It could not even be shown so as to make a laughingstock or to point to it as what's wrong--- the way those anti-NEA ministers managed to publicize postage-stamp sized porn negatives out of context from a David Wojnarowicsz (sp?) collage. I'm not sure I could write avant-garde/experimental even if I ~tried,~ as I ~did~ try. Some of this may be constitutional. ANOTHER UTOPIAN MANIFESTO PROPOSITION: Every poet, like in 1984, should adopt a deceased or "disappeared" poet, and carry that author around in her/his work as the missing Ego/Other surrogate. We do not need new poetry. A new danger is resulting from ~overpopulation.~ All this "great"/not-"great" talk has been rendered silly, outdated: "great" was possible only within a very small population, was patriarchal, leader-of-the-pack, competitive. The sheer numbers of poets at this point threatens to drown out perception of any one. Unforeseeable positions are called for, when a few dozen has increased to a few hundreds has increased to . . . thousands, I guess, there must be tens of thousands of poets at this point, right? Collective may be insufficient. WHY can't "radical" poets surrender their proper names?! Why is a poetry of the ~signed~ and autographed, authored, perpetuating itself in an age where advertising, journalism, etc., etc., etc., are all anonymous? Anyway . . . I don't think I "get it" anymore. Where's the How To manual, please? There is no conscious or articulated politic for this politicized writing to adhere to. It's all Wittgensteinian beetle-in-a-box. Your politic is Patrick, but is there any guarantee, any ~chance~ that the Top Ten list of political blue meanies on your hit list match Jeffrey's, or Rebecca Wolff's, or Rasputin's? Jeffrey's: 1. Cars are bad. Global warming. 2. Movies/video-in-any form is bad. 3. Caffeine is bad. Now, ~PETA~ is succeeding at a genuine radicalism (!). The starting point seems to be--- I am complicit. I am unable to stop participating in and supporting the very things my "conscience"/ideals condemns. But--- most of us very possibly live in utterly idiosyncratic country-of-one auto-cultures, us X-poets. We don't ~need~ to resist. We're such a bunch of freaks, anyway. Like, the rebellious mutants. It's ~enough~ that to be a poet is already so fantastically weird. Even the most "conservative" New Yorker poet stands in a position of freedom that insults the larger culture at every step by ignoring it, disdaining. This attempt to be ~doubly~ a Cro-Magnon ~and~ subversive is--- odd. Any how . . . So, that's why I'll re-subscribe to Kenning and send you six bucks. They will each be six inches long, Patrick. I will press them flat with my hand as if ironing them, to smooth them of any wrinkles or creases before mailing them. And the postal office worker, momentarily diverted from yet another post office madman rampage, sniffing the scent of dollars ISSUED BY THE GOVERNMENT, may tear open the envelope, nibbling at it like a rodent, so all Kenning will receive will be a torn-open envelope with the SCENT of money in it. HOW BIZARRE that you're talking "radical" and at the same time proposing prudent usage of "hard-earned six bucks"! like a Farmer's Almanac, Consumer's Digest of poetry. WASTE money. Nobody here works hard for six bucks. We do jiggle dance and they slip bills in our busts. In our g-strings. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 13:02:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: owner-realpoetik@SCN.ORG Subject: RealPoetik Martin Stannard Martin is our favorite Brit poet. His exquisite and extremely amusing Difficulties and Exultations" is just released from Smith/Doorstop Books (ISBN 1-902382-29-3), although the work is quite different from the below. He can be reached at martin.stannard@talk21.com. SOME LIFE I'm in trouble because I've been thinking again, looking for footprints in water. You must have met a man who wanted to say something but didn't know how. He talks into the mirror, hits his head with a hammer. Slumps to his knees, mouth open, a tunnel bored through solid rock. There's work to be done and you understand pain, how predictable it is. Walking around the streets, drinking in bars, trying to sell old cars. On pain-killers since birth. Some of these muscles haven't been used for years; some of them I think we forgot we had. Time flies. Promises are often hard to keep, but faith is bloody impossible to whip up out of nowhere. We carry on unsure of the way we are doing this, or what it is we're doing. The book we bought, the one with the diagrams that makes making love funnier than it already is. I've denied having it three times now. You have to open your eyes and pay attention to things. At night I used to be scared for my life, and some things don't change very much, ever. For these rheumy aches in my legs whenever the air is damp, thank you. They're part of my inheritance, along with taciturnity, dolefulness and solitariness. Thank you. Thank you. All these years stuck with my own company, and I don't think much of it. It would be nice to be comforted. It would be nice to be wrapped in cosy blankets and calmed by the smell of essential oils like an Arab who knows how to be at home at home. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah some blah blah blah blah blah life blah blah blah blah It would be nice to be able to find what you're looking for in the Safeway but I suppose that's not exactly the point, even if your state of mind too often comes to depend on it. These two, stuck in their house like strangers in a cell. I love them and if The Ice Age is ending we'll try and organise the gangs to shovel the water off our fields, to wring out the bedding, and to point out the difference between the melting ice and the sweet silent tears of regret in which people like us might drown with no one to listen out for their cries of despair. No one to chuck them a rope to be saved or hung by. "The last thing we saw was his hand, clutching vainly at the air, ever hopeful of a passing straw." And that was the end of that. The noise an aeroplane makes makes us look up and we see the sky's canopy engraved with patterns that mean something different to each of us. Mystic, it was. Nearly fucking occult. But I couldn't stand it, all that fluff in the brain instead of on the mantlepiece. I believed in the sky but not in what people insisted on seeing in it. It's just the sky. Not heaven, not your home. Only the sky. We worry about turning into our parents. So we wander out into the winter gales. The wind is like a wall: you can lean your thoughts against it and they are revealed in their true size, which is often stupidly tiny, they’re hardly worth mentioning, though we should mention them, have to mention them, if they are all we have. Yes, these are all I have. You could put them in a toilet bag and have some room left. The world is falling apart. People are killing people, and our hair looks okay. And most things seem to happen in other countries. It's cold on the back of this horse, on the top of this tram, at the summit of this small hill we try and clamber up each day refusing to admit we can never reach the We're not ready to make history; reading about it is difficult enough. Troubles grate on our nerves like fingernails on slate and lately I've not been able to sleep. At three in the morning I'm looking at my luggage as it sits at the edge of another new day, daring the Sun. The newspaper lands, full of darkness, on the mat with a dull thud and there's stuff in there we don't understand. Things with wings fly out when we open it. A woman asked me if I wanted to dance and I did but couldn't, so I faked a brilliant limp and a story about a car crash, and I think she wanted to dance with me even more after all that. Now the chain of thought is broken you can burst in if you like on this tiny drama of a tiny life and create your own mayhem. Why be mournful? Who is behind the curtains in that lighted window across the street and what they are doing is none of our business but it would be interesting to know. It would be interesting to know if it's interesting. And I know what it's like to be worried about the future: such worry holds my hand long into the night, even now. There are things that should be said and things that never can be said and as you get older you should try and say as much as possible because when you're dead it's too late and you might die with people thinking you thought everything was okay. It's no good laughing. Some people do think that everything is okay. Martin Stannard ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:03:23 -0500 Reply-To: dtv@mwt.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Organization: Awkword Ubutronics Subject: seeking poems for ROOTSTOCK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a bit of a departure from my usual for the list but Ive managed to get a poetry page in Organic Valley's newsletter, ROOTSTOCK. We are looking to feature 3-5 poems by a single poet & I am specifically looking for work which embodies ecology, organics, health, healing, homesteading, populist politics.... This is a 20 page tabloid newsprint, distributed nationally to food coops & as such is by no means a bastion of avant garde literary activity. Deadline for submissions is Sept 5, 2001. Send your submissions to miekal.and@organicvalley.com www.organicvalley.com mIEKAL ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 12:21:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: m&r Ashber(r)y re... the cynicism o/the profession/alization o madness...in concert with the prod of the aesthetic gesture....toss 'em all into a worded tune bag...and you'll fear that smiling ave....rain on empty sts...DRn ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 02:00:03 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: billy little Subject: voyble ackwoebats Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 voyble ackwoebats I'm happy to see(are they still column inches on the www?) the column inches the bay guardian devoted to Kevin Killian's new book Argento Series from Krupskaya. The big man's a hard worker, a true servant of poetry, he deserves every inch of any attention he gets. At the same time, I'd be remiss if I didn't take this opportunity to extol another essential release from Krupskaya, Ogresse Oblige, by Dorothy Trujillo Lusk, the bp nichol chapbook award winner, within which you'll find further glimmers of the working class Ezra Pound by way of Frank O'Hara and Robin Blaser she's becoming. Dorothy tho, is the anti-snot as snot, for her, intellect is as by the way as bread and butter, as a bellylaugh. Dorothy's returned from Oz possessed of a wicked tongue the devil has no reigns on, she's une deflateur non pareil. Among her contemporaries Stan Douglas, Peter Culley, Kevin Davies, Lisa Robertson, Mina Totino, Gerry Creede, Susan Clark, Kate Van Dusen, Michael Barnholden, she's got the biggest teeth. Her poems are more effective than pills. Read these aloud in the shower, the pages aren't rubber, but the nouns bounce and rebound, announce and denounce, the vowels make your tongue grow. Thanks Krupskaya! Vancouver's websters were out in force for the launch of Ogresse Oblige at the new KSW(formerly Nat Bailey)Stadium. The legends Maxine Gadd and Judith Copithorne, the east end syntax resistor Rhoda Rosenberg, the unendingly famous George Stanley, the ghostbusting globetrotting philosopher Stan Pesky, Steady Eddie Byrne, Mike The Mug Barnholden and Gerry the Anti-Flaubert Creede. Robin Blaser was so cool, he wore a green sombrero and red Daytons. He and Sharon Thesen arrived late, stood in the doorway while Dorothy read and skedaddled before the encore. The retired George Bowering, joking as usual. If you're a Vegan are you aloud To watch a meatier shower? Oy vey. Leonard Cohen couldn't make it but his man, billy little, the millionaires' poet, put in a special request for a poem without budgies. Quel marrant! When a meteor showers what does it use for shampoo? Venceremos amigos -- _______________________________________________ Get your free email from http://mymail.av.iname.com Powered by Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:24:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Fwd: edit/editing line -- i am appalled Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed ----Original Message Follows---- From: Elliza Mcgrand To: tinaiskingofmonsterisland@hotmail.com Subject: edit/editing line -- i am appalled Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:42:07 -0400 hi jim and gang look, i am appalled at the idea of a "no unsolicited manuscripts" policy. good gods, if you're truly THAT drowning in work when open without caveat, then caveat, i.e. "theme" submissions, or a small section of time each month, or year, in which to submit. or acquire a few friends with some interest, make a GREAT dinner, and feed them in exchange for everyone sitting down and weeding out the submission pile once a month. "no unsolicited manuscripts"?!! how cliqued out! how SAD. a tiny, blinkered set of friends and mutual admiration society sit about nights congratulating themselves in print? YUCK! and not even FUNNY, as at least Pickwich Papers, a satire in part on such ventures, was. or, think back to the blazingly awful epitaphs from Huck Finn... when i was editing (geez, that sounds like the beginning of one of those 'we walked five miles barefoot in the snow to get to school and were GLAD of the chance' stories...), anyway, back when i was editing, and we didn't have computers, and everything had to be typed by hand on typewriters we built ourselves, chipping out the typeface from blocks of stone... ok, i'm exaggerating a bit... when i was editing, the sludge pile was a joy of our lives. i could have stuck to the little circle of people i knew, whose work i knew, and what a bore THAT would have been. but an open door let all kinds of quirky, wonderful work in. a couple of my favorite writers, in fact, entered via the unsolicited manuscripts pile. it makes for surprise, for opening your vision up, for learning about something new, for developing, growing. for finding new people and nurturing them into stronger writers. for an emphasis on growing, developing, nurturing, rather than snittly "guess who i turned down!" mentality. i'm reminded of seventh grade, when people started having parties. some people would have great big sprawling parties and many would get drunk or/and wasted and fall down, and there would be general mayhem, rejoicing, and seventh grade awfulness. and some would have these "small" parties, "select" parties, where either only a small, predictable group of the Same Old Gang would come and bore each other silly, often even smaller than intended because invitees couldn't stomach another such dull affair, or a small Select Group would come and host would have bragging rights over all the people she DIDNT ASK, and the week before, people would start being nice to her who never gave her a moment of decency before (all so they could get Invited) and at then end of those Small Select Parties, many would get drunk and/or wasted and fall down, and there would be general mayhem, not much rejoicing, some gloating, and a substantially larger portion of seventh grade awfulness. holding my morning oj, i raise a toast to leaving seventh grade, and its attendant awfulness (among which i include the Mullet, rayon button up blouses, and bell-bottoms). e _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 20:35:48 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Randolph Healy Subject: Re: Godfrey is God MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some John Godfrey links: Odds Lent Bare is at http://hardpress.com/newhp/lingo/authors/godfrey.html The Ticket and Feminine Stamp can be found at http://www.cyberpoems.com/slavery1.html and a short bio note with photo http://www.cyberpoems.com/aboutjon.html best Randolph ----- Original Message ----- From: "lee ann brown" To: Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 3:12 AM Subject: Godfrey is God Dear B. E. Basan Read _Midnight on Your Left_ (The Figures) first then _Where the Weather Suits My Clothes_ (Z Press) and for the new one from the Figures I don't have yet see www.spdbooks.org I remember Lisa Jarnot did a great interview with him in Poetry Project Newsletter like 2-3 years ago - John Godfrey is like the secret New York poet we got to know when we moved here He rocks I have to run now - perhaps others can say more... Someone should make a folder for him on EPC if they haven't already Lee Ann >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 23:07:48 +0900 >> From: "B.E. Basan" >> Subject: Who is John Godfrey? >> >> Hi All, >> Is there any information out there about John Godfrey, even a preface? I = >> can't find anything on the internet. Also, can anyone recommend one of =3D >> his books, I only have a few poems. >> Thanks, >> Ben >> >> ------------------------------ Lee Ann Brown Tender Buttons PO Box 13, Cooper Station NYC 10276 (718) 782-8443 home - (646) 734-4157 cell "Harmless amulets arm little limbs with poise and charm." < Harryette Mullen, Trimmings (Tender Buttons Books) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 20:43:24 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Re: my annual thank you MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ditto from UK L ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: 20 August 2001 15:17 Subject: my annual thank you | Call me sloppy sentimental, but every once in a while I get the urge to | publicly thank Charles Bernstein, Chris Alexander, and everyone else involved | with the creation and maintenance of this List. I know I'm not the only one | who appreciates what these folks have done for a motley community of artists. | Thank you one and all. Best wishes always, Bill | | WilliamJamesAustin.com | KojaPress.com | ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 17:41:37 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Massoni Subject: Guano-sniffers -- Don't try this at home! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I knew it as jumpin' jack flash i's a gas gas gas ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 17:44:15 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Massoni Subject: Re: Free beer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit never been to turkey but Johnson City suny hot as hell will come immediately will bring beer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 18:52:22 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Nagler Subject: camille roy contact info Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wonder if anyone knows an Camille Roy's email address thanks chris nagler ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 17:58:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: LANGUAGE PROSODY (ex. ? H.D., "Helen in Egypt") Comments: To: Clai Rice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit [BEST VIEWED IN 10 pt COURIER NEW FIXED-SPACING FONT. [This reply is somewhat incomplete (defective), as a comprehensive survey of “Helen” goes further than this--- but as other matters are distracting me for greater thoroughness here, I thought of posting this as is, preliminary.] JJ was back-channeled: >>I'm finding these metrical lessons fascinating. You mentioned HD's poetry earlier. I've been looking at the metrics of Helen in Egypt for a while now and can see why I've made little progress. what is your source on the Greek metrics? I know of nothing like this published on H in E, nor on HD at all, really. Do you have any suggestions? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you for calling my attention to “Helen in Egypt,” which I had passed over too lightly: I’ve been pursuing a genealogy for mainly double/multiple-stress feet, and “Helen” didn’t seem pertinent. I’ve now scrutinized the “Helen” meter extensively. Here’s what I find: 1 I3/I3*, A3/A3*; variations (A.I, I2.A2, etc.) About three-quarters of the lines can be completely summed using conventional meters such as anapestic trimeter (A3: _ _ / _ _ / _ _ / ) or iambic trimeter (I3: _ / _ / _ / ), with some trochaic lines (T: / _ . . . ) and dactyls (D: / _ _ . . .). There are novel but recognizable combinations of those four standard feet: A.I, I2.A2, DT, DT2, etc. And there are occasional, conventional (I5) iambic pentameter decasyllables ( _ / _ / _ / _ / _ / ). {Not necessarily a pentameter, but an amusing instance of a decasyllable: “the syllables H-E-L-E-N-A” [P.VII.2]} FEMININE: Many of these meters end with an “extra,” unstressed syllable which I mark ----f: I3 or even I3* (below) become I3f ( _ / _ / _ / _) and I3* ( _ / _ _ / _ / _ ), A3 becomes A3f ( _ _ / _ _ / _ _ / _ ), etc. In standard contemporary Formalist scansion, familiar lines such as iambic pentameter or such are “allowed” to assume an additional, extra-metrical syllable: those lines are called “feminine,” which, in the case of H.D. and the ~feminism~ surrounding her, seems like an apt reading. That scansion, though, is vulnerable to a larger re-mapping of the entire book as possibly hinging on two important, other classical feet uncommon to American English readings: the cretic ( / _ / ) and amphibrach ( _ / _ ). The case for terminal amphibrach is not, though, a particularly strong one, I believe: lines inexplicable by any other system are few. Regardless, I’m left inconclusive on this point: it regains relevant upon examining the amphibrach/cretic lines in “Helen”: three-syllable lines consisting of only one cretic each (“gold from dross? / death from life?”), cretic dimeters (cret2: “~flame,~ I prayed, ~flame forget~” [P.I.7]; “No--- I spoke evil words” [P.IV.8]; “underneath vault and tomb” [E.I.6]; “day before yesterday” [P.IV.3] = D2?; “being god-like and poor;” [L.III.3] = A2?/Dod B?; “so my throat knew that day” [L.VII.3] = A.cret? A2?!), cretic-choriambic (cret.chor: “Amen-Zeus, let me not ask” [P.II.8], appearing after the above-cited string of two full cretic lines, hence “weighting” its reading against an interpretation as lekythion), or cretic leading into exceptional “colarions” [figures] helpfully interpretable as containing cretics (cret, I.cret: “bring her here / to join hand with hand” [P.V.5] = cret, bacchiac.I?), or in combination (cret.T2: “Learn of me (this is Paris)---” [L.I.8]). It also seems cursory to ignore final unstressed syllables as feminine since, when followed by lines beginning with iambs they set up a transversal! cross-line dactyl/anapest and, more significantly, when followed by anapests, they create three unstressed syllables (a pyrrhic, _ _ _ ), a rhythm uncommon to pre-XXth cent. poetry that’s difficult to explain by Formalist conventions and hence more interesting as a Modernist phenomenon. ---------------------------------- (The first two syllables of an English verse are typically the most vulnerable to ambiguity.) Here’s where it gets interesting: Almost half of the above-mentioned trimeters come in a consistent alternative: they vary the ~middle~ foot, using the associated complement: two outer iambs begin and end a line with an anapest in the middle --- I3 becomes I3* (or I.A.I: _ / _ _ / _ / ); vice-versa, a trimeter with beginning and ending outer anapests may take an iamb in the middle foot: A3 becomes A3* (or A.I.A: _ _ / _ / _ _ / ). In fewer cases, forms like T.D.T (trochee-dactyl-trochee: / _ / _ _ / _ / ) appear. In H.D.’s practice, the interchanging of these alternatives is very musical and constantly surprising in a way that makes it understandable why someone would have made no progress in detecting the pattern. It must seem constantly shifting and changing read aloud, although simultaneously continually familiar. Every time one of these line starts, it can go in one of two directions, and from there branch out into further-multiplying ramifications. 2. DODRANS A/B, HEMIEPES, PENTHEMIMER, etc. There is a heavy use throughout the book of a line ( / _ _ / _ / ) known in classical meter as DODRANS A, and its anti-type, DODRANS B ( / _ / _ _ / ) (although Dodrans are nor technically classified as part of the iambic-anapestic family, but aeolo-choriambic). These less familiar lines may be worth quoting, at the offset; many of them are questions, and book-sections often start with dodrans: DODRANS A few were the words we said, [1.3] turning to view the stars, [I.6] How could I hide my eyes? [I.8] This is the spread of wings, [II.4] Will he forever weigh [II.7] Helen against the loss . . . “ suddenly weighs me down “ Love should be born of War? . . . [II. 8] written upon the Walls, . . . “ whether he broke the law “ What does he mean by that? . . . [III.2] many the problems solved “ Why should I answer him? [III.4] why does she hold us here? [IV.1] listen and make an end . . . [IV.2] Helen will be your share . . . “ this is the iron-ring, . . . “ how did the story end? “ [In the arguable cases where the line ends not in a clearly accented monosyllable (“stars,” “eyes,” “wings”) but in more ambiguous pronoun/particle-type words (“him”), others might read the lines as D2, dactylic dimeters, / _ _ / _ _ . The upswing inflection of the voice at the end of an interrogative sentence, that slight rise of pitch, though, I think weights the meters more strongly toward Dodrans A. Also, I find few “pure” D2s in the book. D2 functions more as part of a larger (often “falling” rhythm”) line, such as D2.T: “merciless strokes for the Flower” [Eidolon, VI.3], “over the smoldering embers” [Eid.IV.8], --- Even where a pure D2 may be discernible (Eid. V.4: “numb with a memory”), the final ambiguous syllable is of a type conventionally mis-accentuated . . .] HEMIEPES Anyone giving even cursory attention to the matter of classical/Gk. metrics becomes familiar with “hemiepes” ( / _ _ / _ _ / ). Like an expanded version of our earlier “hypodochmiac” but with two unstressed syllables instead of one on each side symmetrically framing the middle stress: whether he laughed as they fell; . . . [P.II.8] whether he cheated, he lied --- “ why did I call him to me? . . . [P.III.1] “shall we seek Cyprus’ rose . . . ” ~ “ was he afraid of the dead? [P.III.3] ~Helena, which was the dream?~ [P.III.5] but for the wisdom of Thoth; [P.V.2] never the Star in the night. [ “ .8] into the innermost shrine [ “ .VI.3] Why did he pledge her to death? [ " . VI.4] Surely, I am not alone, [ “ .VI.7]’ Helena, reads the degree, [ “ . VII.2] counting the fall of your feet, [ “ “ .6] kindles a spark from the past; . . . [L.IV.2] only the heroes remained, “ ravaging eagle; his war [E.I.6] hostler who tended his steeds, [E.III.5] thunder and roar of the sea [E.IV.1] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 06:15:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ray Bianchi Subject: Re: Free beer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit you are correct about the beer price, but since you are in Turkey the beer must be better... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 3:50 PM Subject: Re: Free beer > Ray Bianchi said, > > "a question just moved to Princeton NJ. looking for poets to socialize with, anyone open? First beer's on me." > > Dear Mr. Bianchi, > > Do you mean you want poets to come to Princeton to socialize with you in person, or do you mean you want them to come to Princeton via email? I can't come to Princeton in person because I'm on an island near Turkey, but if you meant the invitation in the pen-pal sense, I will gladly accept your money order (convertible) for $1.50. Write me if the latter, and I'll send you my mailing address, accompanied by a letter about poetry, and a money order for $7.25, which I believe is the price of a draft of Bud Light on Nassau Street in Princeton. > > Ammonides > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 14:34:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: my annual thank you Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Yo tambien, and with a nod also to Joel Kuszai, Loss & everyone else who has chipped in behind the scenes over the years. This is still the one list I always read, Ron ditto from UK L ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: 20 August 2001 15:17 Subject: my annual thank you | Call me sloppy sentimental, but every once in a while I get the urge to | publicly thank Charles Bernstein, Chris Alexander, and everyone else involved | with the creation and maintenance of this List. I know I'm not the only one | who appreciates what these folks have done for a motley community of artists. | Thank you one and all. Best wishes always, Bill | | WilliamJamesAustin.com | KojaPress.com | Ron Silliman ron.silliman@gte.net rsillima@hotmail.com DO NOT RESPOND to Tottels@Hotmail.com It is for listservs only. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 10:08:12 -0400 Reply-To: jamie.perez@akqa.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jamie Gaughran-Perez Organization: AKQA Subject: Re: Argento Series sighting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit if you're not in the bay area: http://www.sfbg.com/AandE/35/46/ae_opener.html Dodie Bellamy wrote: > > Hi Everybody, > > Those of you with access to the Bay Guardian, check out the latest > issue--page 37-38. There's a sizeable article about Kevin Killian's > new Krupskya book, Argento Series. The article is half interview, > half--what? Tribute? Discussion? > > Those of you who don't live in the Bay Area--let me > contextualize--one hardly ever sees any reference to the local poetry > scene in the media, so this is an astonishing manifestation. > > Dodie -- Jamie Gaughran-Perez Sr. Content Developer AKQA/DC 3255 Grace Street NW Washington, DC 20007 AKQA - a new global marketing and technology services firm http://www.akqa.com The information transmitted in this email and/or any attached document(s) is confidential and intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 08:10:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michael amberwind Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 17 Aug 2001 to 20 Aug 2001 (#2001-124) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Do not pay entry fees. Do not get subscriptions as a price of being considered. Do not pay an agent. Do not listen to "no unsolicited manuscripts". Send the poems, the cover letter and (if you want it back) an SASE. If you don't want to have a slush pile, DON'T START A LITERARY MAGAZINE! If you cannot convince four or five people to read the submissions and make intelligent, unbiased decisions as to what is in and what is out, then LITERATURE DOES NOT *DESERVE* TO SURVIVE! Contests are a way to raise money. Do you want to raise money for your magazine? Have a bake sale. Hold a benefit concert. Sell some blood. Don't get the money from the poorest sort of writer there is. Friends who send me e-mail about poetry contests think they are doing me a favour. They aren't. Are contests any fairer than the usual process of submission? No. Just pricier. If there were a poets union I'd vote to boycott contests, reading fees and subscribe-to-publish nonsense. I'd rather save my money and spend it on books or single malt scotch. ------------------------------ >>>Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:24:04 -0400 >>>From: Jim Behrle >>> Subject: Fwd: edit/editing line -- i am appalled ----Original Message Follows---- From: Elliza Mcgrand To: tinaiskingofmonsterisland@hotmail.com Subject: edit/editing line -- i am appalled Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:42:07 -0400 hi jim and gang look, i am appalled at the idea of a "no unsolicited manuscripts" policy. good gods, if you're truly THAT drowning in work when open without caveat, then caveat, i.e. "theme" submissions, or a small section of time each month, or year, in which to submit. or acquire a few friends with some interest, make a GREAT dinner, and feed them in exchange for everyone sitting down and weeding out the submission pile once a month. "no unsolicited manuscripts"?!! how cliqued out! how SAD. a tiny, blinkered set of friends and mutual admiration society sit about nights congratulating themselves in print? YUCK! and not even FUNNY, as at least Pickwich Papers, a satire in part on such ventures, was. or, think back to the blazingly awful epitaphs from Huck Finn... when i was editing (geez, that sounds like the beginning of one of those 'we walked five miles barefoot in the snow to get to school and were GLAD of the chance' stories...), anyway, back when i was editing, and we didn't have computers, and everything had to be typed by hand on typewriters we built ourselves, chipping out the typeface from blocks of stone... ok, i'm exaggerating a bit... when i was editing, the sludge pile was a joy of our lives. i could have stuck to the little circle of people i knew, whose work i knew, and what a bore THAT would have been. but an open door let all kinds of quirky, wonderful work in. a couple of my favorite writers, in fact, entered via the unsolicited manuscripts pile. it makes for surprise, for opening your vision up, for learning about something new, for developing, growing. for finding new people and nurturing them into stronger writers. for an emphasis on growing, developing, nurturing, rather than snittly "guess who i turned down!" mentality. i'm reminded of seventh grade, when people started having parties. some people would have great big sprawling parties and many would get drunk or/and wasted and fall down, and there would be general mayhem, rejoicing, and seventh grade awfulness. and some would have these "small" parties, "select" parties, where either only a small, predictable group of the Same Old Gang would come and bore each other silly, often even smaller than intended because invitees couldn't stomach another such dull affair, or a small Select Group would come and host would have bragging rights over all the people she DIDNT ASK, and the week before, people would start being nice to her who never gave her a moment of decency before (all so they could get Invited) and at then end of those Small Select Parties, many would get drunk and/or wasted and fall down, and there would be general mayhem, not much rejoicing, some gloating, and a substantially larger portion of seventh grade awfulness. holding my morning oj, i raise a toast to leaving seventh grade, and its attendant awfulness (among which i include the Mullet, rayon button up blouses, and bell-bottoms). e ===== ...I am a real poet. My poem is finished and I haven't mentioned orange yet. It's twelve poems, I call it ORANGES. And one day in a gallery I see Mike's painting, called SARDINES. [from "Why I Am Not A Painter" by Frank O'Hara] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 13:03:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Allen H. Bramhall" Subject: Re: Fwd: edit/editing line -- i am appalled MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit can't let this one pass by without comment. ' no unsolicited manuscripts' does not rather automatically mean that the publisher or editor only publishes work from a small and select group of people. it simply means that the said editor or publisher might in fact limit the amount of work they can successfully address, i.e, give time and attention to. a publisher without this policy soon learns that they will be overwhelmed with work, depending upon the amount of submissions. if one receives 10 manuscripts a week, its hardly likely that they will be able to give the time and attention that the writing(and writer) deserves. (nurturing principle) when a publisher says that they are not accepting manuscripts unsolicited, perhaps the writer needs to realize that every publisher is not willing to give every last vestige of their time. in example, i had a poet call me on my wedding day, wanting to know about their book. i explained that this day was not the best of times to discuss the subject as i was trying to get the last of the flowers and supper ready, hadn't yet put on my gown, etc and please, could i get in touch another day? the writer said sure. what about tomorrow morning or the coming weekend? 'nope', i said. 'that would be christmas eve and day, to say nothing about my honeymoon'. your idea that one hold a dinner party for a few friends and get together to read manuscripts sounds charming and delightful. unfortunately, a dinner party for forty people (the number of willing readers we would need), and a time block of however long it takes to read through the pile doesn't take into account the length of certain manuscripts. i like to read every word myself, and if a manuscript is over 100 pages, well, do the math. i need more than a few hours to give the work my full attention, and besides, who the heck is cooking/serving the dinner for forty? doing the dishes? the analogy to a small and spoiled select group of publishers as compared to seventh graders getting together for keggers is interesting. frankly, i read read work all day long. i do this sober. i give full and intelligent feedback to the work. that's my method. writers need to realize that the publisher is not on a power trip from hell, but someone who devotes their time and attention to successfully bring work to light. my own analogy is we are midwifes. i know of no successful midwife who sits back on their fanny with a mug in hand. frankly, any publisher on a power trip would soon find themselves weeded out. word gets around, and what comes around goes around. its a symbiotic relationship between a publisher and writer. we are the final step before a work comes to light, and the writer should remit a complete work ready to publish. not a work that 'needs some work, don't you think this is good, where should i go from here, etc.' a final word. every letter of rejection i write is thoughtfully undertaken. not a matter of ' guess who i rejected today' mentality, but complete with suggestions on furthering the writer and writing. i work hard at this, as hard as the poet who writes. the process is just as demanding and time consuming. we do not take this lightly. beth garrison, publisher www.potespoets.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Behrle" To: Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 3:24 PM Subject: Fwd: edit/editing line -- i am appalled > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: Elliza Mcgrand > To: tinaiskingofmonsterisland@hotmail.com > Subject: edit/editing line -- i am appalled > Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:42:07 -0400 > > hi jim and gang > > look, i am appalled at the idea of a "no unsolicited manuscripts" > policy. good gods, if you're truly THAT drowning in work when open > without caveat, then caveat, i.e. "theme" submissions, or a small > section of time each month, or year, in which to submit. or acquire a > few friends with some interest, make a GREAT dinner, and feed them in > exchange for everyone sitting down and weeding out the submission pile > once a month. > > "no unsolicited manuscripts"?!! how cliqued out! how SAD. a tiny, > blinkered set of friends and mutual admiration society sit about > nights congratulating themselves in print? YUCK! and not even FUNNY, > as at least Pickwich Papers, a satire in part on such ventures, was. > or, think back to the blazingly awful epitaphs from Huck Finn... > > when i was editing (geez, that sounds like the beginning of one of those > 'we walked five miles barefoot in the snow to get to school and were GLAD > of the chance' stories...), anyway, back when i was editing, and we didn't > have computers, and everything had to be typed by hand on typewriters we > built ourselves, chipping out the typeface from blocks of stone... ok, > i'm exaggerating a bit... > > when i was editing, the sludge pile was a joy of our lives. i could > have stuck to the little circle of people i knew, whose work i knew, > and what a bore THAT would have been. but an open door let all kinds > of quirky, wonderful work in. a couple of my favorite writers, in > fact, entered via the unsolicited manuscripts pile. it makes for > surprise, for opening your vision up, for learning about something > new, for developing, growing. for finding new people and nurturing > them into stronger writers. for an emphasis on growing, developing, > nurturing, rather than snittly "guess who i turned down!" mentality. > > i'm reminded of seventh grade, when people started having parties. > some people would have great big sprawling parties and many would get > drunk or/and wasted and fall down, and there would be general mayhem, > rejoicing, and seventh grade awfulness. and some would have these > "small" parties, "select" parties, where either only a small, > predictable group of the Same Old Gang would come and bore each other > silly, often even smaller than intended because invitees couldn't > stomach another such dull affair, or a small Select Group would come > and host would have bragging rights over all the people she DIDNT ASK, > and the week before, people would start being nice to her who never > gave her a moment of decency before (all so they could get Invited) > and at then end of those Small Select Parties, many would get drunk > and/or wasted and fall down, and there would be general mayhem, not > much rejoicing, some gloating, and a substantially larger portion of > seventh grade awfulness. > > holding my morning oj, i raise a toast to leaving seventh grade, and > its attendant awfulness (among which i include the Mullet, rayon button > up blouses, and bell-bottoms). > > e > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 22:01:14 -0700 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Godfrey is God MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit also a review of him (written in 1989) of Midnight on Your Left in my new Spin Cycle... Randolph Healy wrote: > Some John Godfrey links: > > Odds Lent Bare is at http://hardpress.com/newhp/lingo/authors/godfrey.html > > The Ticket and Feminine Stamp can be found at > http://www.cyberpoems.com/slavery1.html > > and a short bio note with photo http://www.cyberpoems.com/aboutjon.html > > best > > Randolph > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "lee ann brown" > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 3:12 AM > Subject: Godfrey is God > > Dear B. E. Basan > > Read _Midnight on Your Left_ (The Figures) first > then > _Where the Weather Suits My Clothes_ (Z Press) > and for > the new one from the Figures I don't have yet > see > www.spdbooks.org > > I remember Lisa Jarnot did a great interview with him in Poetry Project > Newsletter like 2-3 years ago - > > John Godfrey is like the secret New York poet we got to know when we moved > here > > He rocks > > I have to run now - perhaps others can say more... > > Someone should make a folder for him on EPC if they haven't already > > Lee Ann > > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 23:07:48 +0900 > >> From: "B.E. Basan" > >> Subject: Who is John Godfrey? > >> > >> Hi All, > >> Is there any information out there about John Godfrey, even a preface? I > = > > >> can't find anything on the internet. Also, can anyone recommend one of > =3D > >> his books, I only have a few poems. > >> Thanks, > >> Ben > >> > >> ------------------------------ > > Lee Ann Brown > Tender Buttons > PO Box 13, Cooper Station > NYC 10276 > > (718) 782-8443 home - (646) 734-4157 cell > > "Harmless amulets arm little limbs with poise and charm." > > < Harryette Mullen, Trimmings (Tender Buttons Books) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 22:11:15 -0700 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Question for Paul H.; Maxine C., or whoever.... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul, or Maxine, or ????----- Hey, do you know what ever happened to, or how to get in touch with, the great Chicago-area poet Joan Fisher? I totally lost touch with her, and unpacking my boxes found much correspondence we had back in the days...... Chris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 14:33:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 17 Aug 2001 to 20 Aug 2001 (#2001-124) In-Reply-To: <20010821151031.83592.qmail@web10808.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Said: <> I Reply: Malt does more than Milton can, as they say? As for unsolicited manuscripts, most literary journals get around 20 a day, from what I hear. Editing is most assuredly a skill requiring stamina . . . JGallaher ----------------------------- JGallaher "How has the human spirit ever survived the terrific literature with which it has had to contend?" --Wallace Stevens ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 17:13:39 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Re: Argento Series sighting In-Reply-To: <3B826B4C.498BC3CE@acd.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marvelous. Excellent article. Congrats Kevin. Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Jamie > Gaughran-Perez > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 10:08 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Argento Series sighting > > > if you're not in the bay area: > http://www.sfbg.com/AandE/35/46/ae_opener.html > > Dodie Bellamy wrote: > > > > Hi Everybody, > > > > Those of you with access to the Bay Guardian, check out the latest > > issue--page 37-38. There's a sizeable article about Kevin Killian's > > new Krupskya book, Argento Series. The article is half interview, > > half--what? Tribute? Discussion? > > > > Those of you who don't live in the Bay Area--let me > > contextualize--one hardly ever sees any reference to the local poetry > > scene in the media, so this is an astonishing manifestation. > > > > Dodie > > -- > Jamie Gaughran-Perez > Sr. Content Developer > AKQA/DC > 3255 Grace Street NW > Washington, DC 20007 > > AKQA - a new global marketing and technology services firm > http://www.akqa.com > > The information transmitted in this email and/or any attached > document(s) is confidential and intended only for the person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain privileged material. Any > review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of or taking of any > action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other > than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in > error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any > computer. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 17:23:09 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: GasHeart@AOL.COM Subject: Philly: Theater, Music, Film - Issue #44 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 1. Watch the Wizard of Oz, hear Pink Floyd=92s =93Dark Side of the Moon=94 A= ug.=20 25th, free 2. El Vez, "Mexican Elvis" at The Troc, Sept. 15 3. Come see the BOOKMOBILE in Philadelphia, August 24-26, 2001! 4. Laurie Anderson, Performance Artist/Musician, at the TLA, Sept. 17 5. Toots and the Maytals come to the TLA September 14 6. Lee "Scratch" Perry show (jamaican, dub music) is on 11/1/01 at the TLA 7. Fringe Fest Guide Out this Thursday!, Aug. 23 in Citypaper pullout 8. Aura Rose, Najia Samiya the belly dancer present "Lady Kerouac"(at fringe= =20 fest) 9. Group Motion - "Re:Turn with Group Motion...." (at The Fringe Fest) 10. Paradise Laboratory's performance based on Hugh Hefner (at TheFringe Fes= t) _____________________________________________________________ 1. Watch the Wizard of Oz, hear Pink Floyd=92s =93Dark Side of the Moon=94 A= ug.=20 25th, free SATURDAY, AUGUST 25 The Trocadero Presents The Dark Side of Oz Synchronization Experiment Watch the Wizard of Oz, hear Pink Floyd=92s =93Dark Side of the Moon=94=20 and experience the magic! Full size movie screen and=20 seating in the Balcony and in the main room! PLUS=85DJ FLUX (audio / visual) No cover / Drs:8pm / 21+ 10th and Arch, Phila., PA i saw it, it's cool....although playing almost any visual to pink floyd's=20 "darkside of the moon" is waycool.....i remember playing it while the nasa=20 channel was on and they had a shot from a satellite looking down at earth=20 while going around the earth at high speeds....that was really really good. -josh __________________________________________________________ 2. El Vez, "Mexican Elvis" at The Troc, Sept. 15 SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 15 The Trocadero Presents El Vez In =93BOXING WITH GOD=94 The =93Gospel Show=94 - ROUND TWO -=20 The Second Coming Featuring the Heavy Weight Memphis Mariachis plus the Knock Out Elvettes Tix: $12 / Drs: 8pm 10th and Arch, Phila., PA He's got a great sense of humor, a great voice and great outfits....try to=20 get in the front and center to take it all in....and listen to those=20 lyrics,....he's an Elvis Presley impersonator, mexican style! -josh ____________________________________________________________ 3. Come see the BOOKMOBILE in Philadelphia, August 24-26, 2001! projet MOBILIVRE-BOOKMOBILE project Space 1026 1026 Arch Street Philadelphia PA 19107 =20 contact: Ginger Brooks Takahashi ginger@space1026.com =20 Come see the BOOKMOBILE in Philadelphia, August 24-26, 2001! =20 projet MOBILIVRE-BOOKMOBILE project is an exhibition of artist books, zines, and independent publications traveling across North America in a=20 vintage Airstream trailer. Launching in the summer of 2001, the BOOKMOBILE will visit community centers, schools, galleries, festivals, correctional facilities, and remote regions where such books are hard to come by. During the five-month tour, coordinators will host bookbinding workshops, artist talks, and educational forums in an effort to bridge communities. =20 For more information, please check our website at www.studioxx.org/bookmobile. =20 August 24th 10 AM - 3 PM the BOOKMOBILE will be parked at Rittenhouse Square on Walnut St, above 18th St 4 PM - 10 PM the BOOKMOBILE will be parked outside Space 1026, at 1026 Arch Street =20 August 25th 12 PM - 5 PM the BOOKMOBILE will be parked outside the Wooden Shoe, 508 S. 5th Street =20 August 26th 12 PM - 10 PM Day of the BOOKMOBILE at the A Space, 4722 Baltimore Ave, West Philly =20 7 PM - 11 PM Coptic Stitch Bookbinding workshop at the A Space, $10-20 sliding scale _______________________________________________________________ 4. Laurie Anderson, Performance Artist/Musician, at the TLA, Sept. 17 THE THEATER OF LIVING ARTS 334 South Street / (215) 922-1011 September 17 Laurie Anderson 8 PM TICKETS: $20 (Day of show: $22) On Sale Friday, August 17 at 12 PM Laurie Anderson is the epitome of performance art as music....she was very=20 good in the eighties, but her last album or two were weak....this new album=20 might be good again since she is going back to her roots and using the violi= n=20 again.....famous for the song "O Superman". She really can give a super show= =20 if she wants....she was the first to have an actual tornado onstage, which=20 was later used by other people, she also does wonders with computers and=20 digital controlled voice manipulation using the violin to control speed and=20 pitch of vocal output. She's worked with such luminaries as Brian Eno,=20 William Burroughs, and Peter Gabriel. Currently she's married to Velvet=20 Underground's Lou Reed, and he is participating on the current album. They=20 are married but have separate apartments in New York. She used to be seeing=20 Bob Belieki, who was her sound man, and he created a lot of the=20 incredible sound effects. Ever since their breakup, the sound was not as=20 interesting. But i'm interested in seeing what will happen with Lou Reed. -josh ___________________________________________________________ 5. Toots and the Maytals come to the TLA September 14 THE THEATER OF LIVING ARTS 334 South Street / (215) 922-1011 September 14 Toots & the Maytals 9 PM=20 TICKETS: $20 (Day of show: $22) On Sale Friday, August 17 at 12 PM (i saw them a loooong time ago....at a spring fling many moons ago and they=20 rocked!.....famous for the song "Pressure Drop".....goes something like=20 this...."pressure drop,... the pressure drop...the pressure's got the drop o= n=20 you ....", definitely fun to see.....reggae sound, brought to you by Jamaica= n=20 Dave, who can be contacted directly to get on his reggae and dub and world=20 music list directly at federal1260@yahoo.com....he is very active in this=20 area promoting many groovy events, spreading the love energy -josh ________________________________________________________________ 6. Lee "Scratch" Perry show (jamaican, dub music) is on 11/1/01 at the TLA he is the godfather of reggae style, jamaican, dub music......very groovy,=20 catch it if you can.....also a Jamacain Dave Concert production -josh __________________________________________________________ 7. Fringe Fest Guide Out this Thursday!, Aug. 23 in Citypaper pullout the box office is open now, at the national showroom at 113 N. 2nd St., many= =20 shows will sell out so i suggest you plan and buy your tickets early (you ca= n=20 buy tix over the phone, too, box office 215-413-1318). the dates of the=20 festival are Aug. 31 until Sept. 15th, see their website at pafringe.com What is the Fringe Fest? it is an eclectic mix of dance, music, puppetry,=20 theater, multimedia performance, performance art, and art that defies=20 description all crammed into an explosive 2 weeks. a few interesting pieces i got blurbs for i list below.....there are going t= o=20 be lots more cool stuff to come....i will try to see things and report to yo= u=20 what's going on at the fringe this year, like i did last year and the year=20 before. -josh ___________________________________________________________ 8. Aura Rose, Najia Samiya the belly dancer present "Lady Kerouac"(at fringe= =20 fest) The Official Philadelphia Fringe Festival presents: Aura Rose, Najia Samiya the belly dancer and Cohorts=20 in the Beat production of: =20 "Lady Kerouac"=20 =20 performed @ Christ Church,=20 20 N. American St, in the Olde City section of Philadelphia. =20 =20 This presentation takes the audience on a voyeuristic excursion through a few poignant moments of her life as it appears to=20 the naked hairy eyeball=85 as well as into the tangled inner workings of=20 her psyche. The production is part of an unpublished chronicle in=20 poem, dance and song by Aura Rose, further illustrated by the Lady's=20 Cohorts, the mystical band, Animus and Najia Samiya, the Bellydancer. =20 Aura plays Our Lady in spoken word and song as well as Najia, who ignites a soulful belly dance from the deepest recesses Her inner=20 psyche unlike anything that's ever been done!=20 =20 Animus was recently nominated for the Best of City Paper Award for=20 Best World Roots Band. (Congratulations!) =20 You simply must see this unique show!! =20 This show is part of the Fringe Fresh Views program of 4 artists=20 presenting 15 minute views of their work, beginning PROMPTLY for Two shows at the same venue: Friday, September 7th at 6:30pm Friday's show will also feature Dana, Night Hawk and others and =20 Saturday, September 8th at 4pm adding the City Paper World/Roots Band Nominee for the 2nd year:=20 Animus! =20 Come to both shows, each unique! If you come late, you will miss it! =20 =20 Buy advance tickets at the Fringe box office @ National Showroom @=20 113-131 N. 2nd St. before the sell out ($10): online/www.pafringe.com, or phone the box office 215-413-1318 -Aura Rose _________________________________________________________ 9. Group Motion - "Re:Turn with Group Motion...." (at The Fringe Fest) FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE!! =20 WHAT: Modern dance, video, multi-media dance theater =20 WHO: Group Motion Company, Manfred Fischbeck and Andrea Clearfield =20 WHEN: Friday-Monday, September 7-10, 2001 various times =20 WHERE: National Showroom, 113-131 North 2nd Street, Philadelphia, PA =20 TICKETS: $10 regular admission, $7 for members, $8 for students and=20 seniors =20 Re:Turn with Group Motion.... =20 "brilliant choreography and delivery=85.so powerful you want to touch them"= -=20 Alyse Hedson, Philadelphia City Paper =20 Philadelphia, PA -- With a plethora of choices at the 2001 Philadelphia=20 Fringe Festival, audiences will not want to miss Re:Turn, a multi-media=20 dance=20 theater work choreographed by Group Motion Company under the direction of=20 Manfred Fischbeck with composer Andrea Clearfield. Re:Turn which premiere= d=20 in June at the Philadelphia Arts Bank, toured Germany and Cyprus throughout= =20 the summer, making its return to Philadelphia with expanded features=20 including live music and live video. Performances will take place at the=20 National Showroom, 113-131 North 2nd Street, on September 7 at 6:30pm,=20 September 8 at 10:00pm, September 9 at 9:30pm, September 10 at 9:30pm. For= =20 ticket reservations call the Fringe Festival Box Office at 215.413.1318 or=20 Group Motion- Kumquat Dance Center for more information, 215-387-9895.=20 =20 Choreographed by Manfred Fischbeck and the Group Motion Company, Re:Turn =20 features Megan Bridge, Emily Hubler, David Konyk, Katie McNamara, and=20 Heather Murphy. Re:Turn investigates the place of dance, dancers and danc= e=20 performance in contemporary culture. Framed by live video images taken=20 onstage, as well as in the dressing room and the audience, Re:Turn turns=20 the=20 tables on dance performance by looking into the perceptions of those lookin= g=20 on and dancing on the stage. Reflections of dancers are juxtaposed with=20 audience perceptions as questions are raised about how we see and value=20 dance=20 today. Can we return to the experience of dance, not as a cultural or=20 social=20 phenomenon, but as a language of its own? Actors, Liesel Euler and Edward=20 Snyder, add a theatrical dimension to the work by voicing potential audienc= e=20 commentary. The dancers will perform to music by Andrea Clearfield on=20 piano,=20 Manfred Fischbeck on keyboard, Gloria Justin on violin, Doug Mapp on double= =20 bass, Joe Falcey on drums. =20 Group Motion is a professional dance theater company of versatile artists,=20 melding dance, theater, music and visual arts into a provocative performanc= e=20 experience. Founded in 1968, Group Motion pioneered what was originally=20 known as "multi-media dance/theater." The diverse company, under the sole=20 artistic direction of Manfred Fischbeck since 1989, carries members chosen=20 for their technical and creative abilities -- choreographers in their own=20 rights -- regularly contributing to a body of over 45 dance theater pieces.= =20 From historic appearances at the Judson Church in New York to the recent=20 series of sold-out international tours to countries including Germany,=20 France, Argentina, Japan and Taiwan, Group Motion Company has been at the=20 forefront of contemporary dance since its inception.=20 =20 FOR MORE INFORMATION PLEASE CONTACT: Grpmotion@aol.com (Manfred Fischbeck has been at this awhile and is very good at putting=20 together thoughtful multi-media dance performances....also note: Megan Bridg= e=20 is in this and will wow the audience for sure, also note: Liesel Euler who i= s=20 terrific!) -josh ______________________________________________________________ 10. Paradise Laboratory's performance based on Hugh Hefner (at TheFringe Fes= t) look for Paradise Laboratory's performance based on Hugh Hefner (which will=20 be huge!)....last year they did The Fab Four At the Pearly Gates based on th= e=20 Beatles (which was fab!), and the year before was Stupor, which was=20 stupendous! -josh __________________________________________________________ well, that's all for now....see you at the fringe fest....not sure yet where= =20 the late night cabaret will be, but that is always fun...it is free to get=20 in, and lots of artists there, lots of performances. -josh cohen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 13:39:18 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 17 Aug 2001 to 20 Aug 2001 (#2001-124) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael. Right on. No unsolicited or a mag that has "members only" is already a waste of time. From now on I'll send anywhere if at all, and - being conscious of the reality of editorship, and accepting various negative or positive comments realistically, without bitterness, and maybe in some cases "taking (the editor in question) to task" if I feel that that is appropriate. Editors (albeit it is a difficult and onerous job) have become so presumably to assist literature and give opportunities to writers. They should be open minded. I (as an ideal editor if there's such a thing) would look at everything: at least I'd have a "slush" pile , but I'd run them past again to check if I'd missed any Rimbauds. Politeness and honesty and promtness in dealing with submissions is also good. Mistakes are made by editors and "submitters". I actually joined a mag "Spin" and paid the sub with the thought that thus I'd be published. OK that was reality but I've ceased subscribing to another mag because it seems to me to be elitist even if outwardly "avant-garde": this is my view but I think if I was an ambitious young poet I'd submit "across the board" so to speak including the nefarious New Yorker: actually I did send a prose poem satirical thing there and an offer to write about the NZ lit scene but that was rejected. Of course I'm a NZr and also the NYorker, to be fair, as they say, must receive millions of such requests or submissions (which is not to stop me from submiting again - what "stops" me now is getting the time, the will etc). What I wanted in that case was yes some glory but even more a good remuneration. Alas it didnt happen. Alternatively "the young (or old) aspiring writer" could make his/her own books. I have entered competitions..and I would have been chuffed to win, but now, in consideration i feel that they are a kind of "ego trap": who is to judge my work? Fundamentally, they may make suggestions, but it is me myself! From now on I refuse to enter competitions or be impressed with who's who so to speak in lit. The important thing is to write. As a "trade off" I'd submit to various mags and more or less ignore the rules and regs knowing that a human is the editor. Emily Dickinson is my "heroine": great it would have been had she been more proactive on her own behalf (but that may not have helped at the time) but she kept on regardless. No competitions for Emily I'd say! But no one ever won a Chess game by resigning and no one ever got published by not trying or not submitting and a lot of people "broke the rules": maybe most did. Dylan Thomas's first published poem was actually written by another boy! I believe that Marrianne Moore submitted one manuscript 30 times! That sort of thing. Rejection happens: that's what you learn from. It's called life. But then sometimes you "break through" You never lose unless you say to yourself: "I lost that one." Go forth and multi text! Regards, Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "michael amberwind" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 3:10 AM Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 17 Aug 2001 to 20 Aug 2001 (#2001-124) > Do not pay entry fees. > Do not get subscriptions as a price of being > considered. > Do not pay an agent. > Do not listen to "no unsolicited manuscripts". > Send the poems, the cover letter and (if you want > it back) an SASE. > > If you don't want to have a slush pile, DON'T > START A LITERARY MAGAZINE! > > If you cannot convince four or five people to > read the submissions and make intelligent, > unbiased decisions as to what is in and what is > out, then LITERATURE DOES NOT *DESERVE* TO > SURVIVE! > > Contests are a way to raise money. Do you want to > raise money for your magazine? Have a bake sale. > Hold a benefit concert. Sell some blood. Don't > get the money from the poorest sort of writer > there is. > > Friends who send me e-mail about poetry contests > think they are doing me a favour. They aren't. > Are contests any fairer than the usual process of > submission? No. Just pricier. > > If there were a poets union I'd vote to boycott > contests, reading fees and subscribe-to-publish > nonsense. > > I'd rather save my money and spend it on books or > single malt scotch. > > ------------------------------ > > >>>Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:24:04 -0400 > >>>From: Jim Behrle > >>> > Subject: Fwd: edit/editing line -- i am appalled > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: Elliza Mcgrand > To: tinaiskingofmonsterisland@hotmail.com > Subject: edit/editing line -- i am appalled > Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:42:07 -0400 > > hi jim and gang > > look, i am appalled at the idea of a "no > unsolicited manuscripts" > policy. good gods, if you're truly THAT drowning > in work when open > without caveat, then caveat, i.e. "theme" > submissions, or a small > section of time each month, or year, in which to > submit. or acquire a > few friends with some interest, make a GREAT > dinner, and feed them in > exchange for everyone sitting down and weeding > out the submission pile > once a month. > > "no unsolicited manuscripts"?!! how cliqued out! > how SAD. a tiny, > blinkered set of friends and mutual admiration > society sit about > nights congratulating themselves in print? YUCK! > and not even FUNNY, > as at least Pickwich Papers, a satire in part on > such ventures, was. > or, think back to the blazingly awful epitaphs > from Huck Finn... > > when i was editing (geez, that sounds like the > beginning of one of those > 'we walked five miles barefoot in the snow to get > to school and were GLAD > of the chance' stories...), anyway, back when i > was editing, and we didn't > have computers, and everything had to be typed by > hand on typewriters we > built ourselves, chipping out the typeface from > blocks of stone... ok, > i'm exaggerating a bit... > > when i was editing, the sludge pile was a joy of > our lives. i could > have stuck to the little circle of people i knew, > whose work i knew, > and what a bore THAT would have been. but an > open door let all kinds > of quirky, wonderful work in. a couple of my > favorite writers, in > fact, entered via the unsolicited manuscripts > pile. it makes for > surprise, for opening your vision up, for > learning about something > new, for developing, growing. for finding new > people and nurturing > them into stronger writers. for an emphasis on > growing, developing, > nurturing, rather than snittly "guess who i > turned down!" mentality. > > i'm reminded of seventh grade, when people > started having parties. > some people would have great big sprawling > parties and many would get > drunk or/and wasted and fall down, and there > would be general mayhem, > rejoicing, and seventh grade awfulness. and some > would have these > "small" parties, "select" parties, where either > only a small, > predictable group of the Same Old Gang would come > and bore each other > silly, often even smaller than intended because > invitees couldn't > stomach another such dull affair, or a small > Select Group would come > and host would have bragging rights over all the > people she DIDNT ASK, > and the week before, people would start being > nice to her who never > gave her a moment of decency before (all so they > could get Invited) > and at then end of those Small Select Parties, > many would get drunk > and/or wasted and fall down, and there would be > general mayhem, not > much rejoicing, some gloating, and a > substantially larger portion of > seventh grade awfulness. > > holding my morning oj, i raise a toast to leaving > seventh grade, and > its attendant awfulness (among which i include > the Mullet, rayon button > up blouses, and bell-bottoms). > > e > > > > > ===== > ...I am a real poet. My poem > is finished and I haven't mentioned > orange yet. It's twelve poems, I call > it ORANGES. And one day in a gallery > I see Mike's painting, called SARDINES. > [from "Why I Am Not A Painter" by Frank O'Hara] > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 13:41:20 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Fwd: edit/editing line -- i am appalled MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not automatically - but many do as an elitist policy. Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allen H. Bramhall" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 5:03 AM Subject: Re: Fwd: edit/editing line -- i am appalled > can't let this one pass by without comment. > > ' no unsolicited manuscripts' does not rather automatically mean that the > publisher or editor only publishes work from a small and select group of > people. it simply means that the said editor or publisher might in fact > limit the amount of work they can successfully address, i.e, give time and > attention to. a publisher without this policy soon learns that they will be > overwhelmed with work, depending upon the amount of submissions. if one > receives 10 manuscripts a week, its hardly likely that they will be able to > give the time and attention that the writing(and writer) deserves. > (nurturing principle) > when a publisher says that they are not accepting manuscripts unsolicited, > perhaps the writer needs to realize that every publisher is not willing to > give every last vestige of their time. in example, i had a poet call me on > my wedding day, wanting to know about their book. i explained that this day > was not the best of times to discuss the subject as i was trying to get the > last of the flowers and supper ready, hadn't yet put on my gown, etc and > please, could i get in touch another day? the writer said sure. what about > tomorrow morning or the coming weekend? 'nope', i said. 'that would be > christmas eve and day, to say nothing about my honeymoon'. > your idea that one hold a dinner party for a few friends and get together to > read manuscripts sounds charming and delightful. unfortunately, a dinner > party for forty people (the number of willing readers we would need), and a > time block of however long it takes to read through the pile doesn't take > into account the length of certain manuscripts. i like to read every word > myself, and if a manuscript is over 100 pages, well, do the math. i need > more than a few hours to give the work my full attention, and besides, who > the heck is cooking/serving the dinner for forty? doing the dishes? > the analogy to a small and spoiled select group of publishers as compared to > seventh graders getting together for keggers is interesting. frankly, i read > read work all day long. i do this sober. i give full and intelligent > feedback to the work. that's my method. > writers need to realize that the publisher is not on a power trip from hell, > but someone who devotes their time and attention to successfully bring work > to light. my own analogy is we are midwifes. i know of no successful midwife > who sits back on their fanny with a mug in hand. frankly, any publisher on a > power trip would soon find themselves weeded out. word gets around, and what > comes around goes around. > > its a symbiotic relationship between a publisher and writer. we are the > final step before a work comes to light, and the writer should remit a > complete work ready to publish. not a work that 'needs some work, don't you > think this is good, where should i go from here, etc.' > > a final word. every letter of rejection i write is thoughtfully undertaken. > not a matter of ' guess who i rejected today' mentality, but complete with > suggestions on furthering the writer and writing. i work hard at this, as > hard as the poet who writes. the process is just as demanding and time > consuming. we do not take this lightly. > > beth garrison, publisher > www.potespoets.org > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Behrle" > To: > Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 3:24 PM > Subject: Fwd: edit/editing line -- i am appalled > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > > From: Elliza Mcgrand > > To: tinaiskingofmonsterisland@hotmail.com > > Subject: edit/editing line -- i am appalled > > Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:42:07 -0400 > > > > hi jim and gang > > > > look, i am appalled at the idea of a "no unsolicited manuscripts" > > policy. good gods, if you're truly THAT drowning in work when open > > without caveat, then caveat, i.e. "theme" submissions, or a small > > section of time each month, or year, in which to submit. or acquire a > > few friends with some interest, make a GREAT dinner, and feed them in > > exchange for everyone sitting down and weeding out the submission pile > > once a month. > > > > "no unsolicited manuscripts"?!! how cliqued out! how SAD. a tiny, > > blinkered set of friends and mutual admiration society sit about > > nights congratulating themselves in print? YUCK! and not even FUNNY, > > as at least Pickwich Papers, a satire in part on such ventures, was. > > or, think back to the blazingly awful epitaphs from Huck Finn... > > > > when i was editing (geez, that sounds like the beginning of one of those > > 'we walked five miles barefoot in the snow to get to school and were GLAD > > of the chance' stories...), anyway, back when i was editing, and we didn't > > have computers, and everything had to be typed by hand on typewriters we > > built ourselves, chipping out the typeface from blocks of stone... ok, > > i'm exaggerating a bit... > > > > when i was editing, the sludge pile was a joy of our lives. i could > > have stuck to the little circle of people i knew, whose work i knew, > > and what a bore THAT would have been. but an open door let all kinds > > of quirky, wonderful work in. a couple of my favorite writers, in > > fact, entered via the unsolicited manuscripts pile. it makes for > > surprise, for opening your vision up, for learning about something > > new, for developing, growing. for finding new people and nurturing > > them into stronger writers. for an emphasis on growing, developing, > > nurturing, rather than snittly "guess who i turned down!" mentality. > > > > i'm reminded of seventh grade, when people started having parties. > > some people would have great big sprawling parties and many would get > > drunk or/and wasted and fall down, and there would be general mayhem, > > rejoicing, and seventh grade awfulness. and some would have these > > "small" parties, "select" parties, where either only a small, > > predictable group of the Same Old Gang would come and bore each other > > silly, often even smaller than intended because invitees couldn't > > stomach another such dull affair, or a small Select Group would come > > and host would have bragging rights over all the people she DIDNT ASK, > > and the week before, people would start being nice to her who never > > gave her a moment of decency before (all so they could get Invited) > > and at then end of those Small Select Parties, many would get drunk > > and/or wasted and fall down, and there would be general mayhem, not > > much rejoicing, some gloating, and a substantially larger portion of > > seventh grade awfulness. > > > > holding my morning oj, i raise a toast to leaving seventh grade, and > > its attendant awfulness (among which i include the Mullet, rayon button > > up blouses, and bell-bottoms). > > > > e > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 22:27:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: m&r...thanks... for all my 1,000,000 year old man carping...i'd too like to thank Chris and Charles Bernstein...for the behind scenes hard work needed to set up and maintain this list...ave....Harry... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 23:21:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: m&r..re Jonas Berry.... looking back at certain 20th cent... pre e-lit poets...like Ashbery... to my ear... they sound like Elinor Wylie or William Rose Benet...the muse has fled but the echo remains...Drn... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 00:18:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: the test of time Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Marcella Durand: >Also, I very strongly disagree with "good" artwork as that which has stood >the test of time. Aaron Belz: >Don't you think that "the test of time" is at least *one* way of >identifying good artwork? The thought is, I >think, that over time, fashion >doesn't survive -- pretty flashes, little signals, etc, likewise perish -- >but good >artwork holds meaning for generations. This kind of 'good' >artwork balances carefully between temporal >applicability and long-term >('universal') significance. I know, I know, we of the corrected ideologies >resist >the idea of universal meanings, trans-cultural significances, etc. >But don't you think that there are some >'good artworks' that do 'stand the >test of time'? I mean, at the very least, and in careful application, isn't >it a >legitimate measure? Marcella: >This idea has been used to justify the existence of the current >white-male-dominated canon. Aaron: >Let not your assessment of a principle be overwhelmed by your righteous >(and right) disgust at its >abuses. "The test of time" is flimsy and cheap, has propped up too many undeserving writers in our field. Abuse far outweighes benefits. We are witness to anthology after anthology that steals from the poor and gives to the undeserving rich. The contributions of women and poets of color may never get their day beneath this endless rain of falling anvils. We must accept that good artwork is sometimes lost, sometimes forever. There is no magic force that will someday lay judgement to assure that cream rises. We must be smart and relentless, must spread the word, like in recent John Godfrey posts. There are other poets we know and will know who must and should rise to surface. --Jim _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 01:10:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Phoebe Gloeckner in the NY Times Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed The Bay Guardian piece on Kevin's book is wonderful, almost as wonderful as Kevin's book is great. On a related note, Phoebe Gloeckner, who has been in a bunch of Kevin's plays, & who is one of my all-time favorite cartoonists, just had a similarly wonderful piece written about her in the New York Times Sunday Magazine. It was in the August 5th issue, which someone just sent to me, so I apologize that this news is a bit old. (Maybe it's up on the NY Times site? I don't have access to it right now, so I can't check ...) I kind of can't believe it. Phoebe's cartoons, which are largely autobiographical, deal with childhood sexual abuse, with teen prostitution, drug scoring, etc., etc. (For those who don't know her comics work, she also did cover art and illustrations for a number of Re/Search books, including I think the Body Fluids book and J.G. Ballard's Atrocity Exhibition.) Her first collection, A Child's Life, is I think still banned in France, and had to be printed after-hours in the U.S. because a lot of the people working at the printers where her publisher had them printed wanted nothing to do with it. For a lot of people, it's deeply upsetting work, & for a number of fairly complicated reasons -- all of which the Times article, unbelievably, addresses. There's only one place in the article where the Times sort of "backs off" -- they won't print the words "blow job," so they substitute [perform oral sex], like that, in brackets, instead -- like the line you'd cross wouldn't be about content, but form. Otherwise, Peggy Orenstein, who interviewed Phoebe & wrote the piece, is completely straightforward, sympathetic, curious, & unapologetic. It's doubly amazing that this piece got printed because A Child's Life came out a couple of years ago, and Phoebe doesn't have a new book out yet, although one is in the works. (A sort of hybrid -- part novel, part graphic novel, "Diary of a Teenage Girl," which again is largely ((maybe completely?)) autobiographical.) So, like, how did Orenstein decide to write about Phoebe? How did she convince the Times to run this? Phoebe is pitched neither as a victim nor as a purveyor of lurid entertainment. She's pitched as a serious artist using the subject matter that has had the greatest impact on her life. It's totally amazing, respectful & unexpected. Gary _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 01:07:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: anthologized Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Well, for example: CONTEMPORARY AMERICAN POETRY put out by Houghton-Mifflin. Their Fifth edition, edited by A. Poulin, Jr. (1991) contains: A. R. Ammons, John Ashbery, Marvin Bell, John Berryman, Elizabeth Bishop, Robert Bly, Gwendolyn Brooks, Lucille Clifton, Robert Creeley, James Dickey, Rita Dove, Ala Dugan, Robert Duncan, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Isabella Gardner, Allen Ginsberg, Louise Gluck, Donald Hall, Michael Harper, Robert Hass, Robert Hayden, Richard Hugo, David Ignatow, Randall Jarrell, Donald Justice, Galway Kinnell, Carolyn Kizer, Maxine Kumin, Stanley Kunitz, Denise Levertov, Philip Levine, John Logan, Robert Lowell, William Matthews, James Merrill, W. S. Merwin, Frank O'Hara, Mary Oliver, Charles Olson, Marge Piercy, Sylvia Plath, Adrienne Rich, Theodore Roethke, Anne Sexton, Charles Simic, Louis Simpson, W. D. Snodgrass, Gary Snyder, William Stafford, Gerald Stern, Mark Strand, Lucien Stryk, Richard Wilbur, C. K. Williams, Charles Wright, James Wright. Backcover: "Now in its 20th year, CONTEMPORARY AMERICAN POETRY presents 56 poets who have shaped the contours of poetry in this country since World War II..." Enter the 7th edition, (2001) edited by Michael Waters (and A. Poulin, Jr. died 1996): Gone from this edition: Robert Duncan Lawrence Ferlinghetti Isabella Gardner Mary Oliver Charles Olson Added: Ai Olga Broumas Stephen Dobyns Carol Frost Albert Goldbarth Kimiko Hahn William Heyen Andrew Hudgins Bill Knott Yusef Komunyakaa (added 6th edition) Li-Young Lee (added 6th) Marilyn Nelson Naomi Shihab Nye (added 6th) Sharon Olds Carl Philips Gary Soto (added 6th) Elizabeth Spires David St. John Ellen Bryant Voigt From the backcover: "The book has enough diversity of styles and enough virtousity that it can be taught over and over..."--Charles Hood, Antelope Valley College "I have not found another anthology that comes even close to the quality and usability of this book." --Carol L. Cole, Manatee Community College "This anthology includes more than 500 poems... by 66 poets who have shaped the direction and contours of American Poetry since 1960..." "Houghton Mifflin and the editor of this book welcome your comments via e-mail at college_english.hmco.com or by letter to:" Houghton Mifflin 222 Berkeley St. Boston, MA 02116-3764 Michael Waters--mgwaters@salisbury.edu http://www.salisbury.edu/Schools/Fulton/English/Faculty/michael_waters.htm Charles Hood--chood@avc.edu Carole Cole--colec@mcc.cc.fl.us Please, please, please send e-mail with comments to these parties. As Sinead O'Connor once said, "Fight the real enemy." Take care. Jim _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 02:51:26 +0000 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Who's Great MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kasey-- I appreciated and found your assessment compelling, and yes the general sense of greatness seems goofy but one I have come to accept. Yet, surprisingly, an ideal vague term to learn from, but there are three areas of greatness that I have experienced that are not accounted for in your post. 1.) The Living Great Theorem: There are these poets who are remarkably great while alive. From the people I have learned from, Charles Olson would fit into this category. I am not convinced of his poems greatness and find his lack of economy allowing moments of greatness, sometimes even whole letters from Maximus, such as the one where Ferrini is shredded (#3 is my memory), but never a long duration. Yet each of these "direct contact " informants, or almost direct, assures me of his Greatness (as in your #1), an opinion which I have never found legitimated within his texts. Therefore, I have deduced there was a fire present in Olson that moved others to momenteous tasks, that worked as a inspiring conduit to cast others to their peak. Ted Berrigan also worked in this fire causing role, the difference being that if I decide to read the Sonnets or Things to do in Providence this morning his page still recasts that incantatory moment. A living poet that fits this role is Ralph LaCharity, who rolls city to city, performs at open readings, transports guerilla acts of poetry upon the listeners, and when looked for, has disappeared already. Perhaps you have seen him, he was a student of Kaufman, Dorn, & Duncan, drifts through your part of CA every so often, nearly never reads as a feature because the moment of poetry has to burn through his hands before he will bother to perform. In one memorable (two poem hit & run) reading he announced "If I do this poem correctly the audience will hear two languages at the same time. The first language is an approximation of third century Greek, the second will be heard in an appalachian vernacular." Then his prediction came true. Except to retell this fragment, I cannot describe this instant any clearer. He simply vibrates the listeners towards the act of creation. I will attempt to document LaCharity recording-wise before this inspiror only leaves the legend of those moments, but, similar to the page, I still will fall short of that full fledged audience member experience. 2. The Single Poem Theory: There are many writers I've read who have Great single poems, a poem of the highest magnitude, THE poem, in every sense. The poem is an impossibility, often a first one-bullet creation slaying every member of its audience. This is the true proof of God's existance. There is a wide expanse between the writer who has a poem of the first magnitude and the poet who has a book-length enigma of these stars. For this reason, single poems are not worthwhile arbiters of Greatness. 3. The poet who is passed among poets. Niedecker, before she was academically talked about, had her work passed among poets. Arnett is a similar poet currently. All of his books except for one were published in editions of no more than 400 copies and usually 250. Other poets carried the torch. That is greatness. I do believe poets can be alive and great. If any have seen Yevgeny Yevtushenko your theory goes out the window. My next collection is on a series Greatest Hits consisting of 240 some poets of which I am the youngest contributor so far a series which includes, to mention true openness, John M. Bennett & Marvin Bell. The full title of mine is Greatest Hits: from the Greatest Poet in the World Why would one want to be a mediocre poet? The colonel learned from Keats when he dubbed the "King" Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 00:15:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Felsinger Subject: Yasusada / Hoaxes and Heteronymity: An Interview with Kent Johnson Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Jeffrey Jullich in recent post wrote: > "ANOTHER UTOPIAN MANIFESTO PROPOSITION: Every poet, like in 1984, should adopt a deceased or "disappeared" poet, and carry that author around in her/his work as the missing Ego/Other surrogate. We do not need new poetry. A new danger is resulting from ~overpopulation.~ All this "great"/not-"great" talk has been rendered silly, outdated: "great" was possible only within a very small population, was patriarchal, leader-of-the-pack, competitive. The sheer numbers of poets at this point threatens to drown out perception of any one. Unforeseeable positions are called for, when a few dozen has increased to a few hundreds has increased to . . . thousands, I guess, there must be tens of thousands of poets at this point, right? Collective may be insufficient. WHY can't "radical" poets surrender their proper names?! Why is a poetry of the ~signed~ and autographed, authored, perpetuating itself in an age where advertising, journalism, etc., etc., etc., are all anonymous?"< In step w/ such desires -VeRT is pleased to announce the publication of Hoaxes and Heteronymity : An Interview with Kent Johnson. Available in -VeRT #5 http://www.litvert.com/KJ_Interview.html Part poetics, part commentary, this interview presents the reasons for another type of authorship. Read it before it reads you. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 04:06:14 +0000 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Re: editing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One or two things to mention-- I am seeing a trend of listees saying "why aren't you open" To truly be open takes a lot of time. Try out a listing in Poet's Market or, in our case, have an author appear as a full-feature in their pages. We get 600 some manuscripts a year unsolicited & solicited plus 50 envelopes a week do the math. Then there's e-mail. Being truly open meant reading a lot of crap which influenced the writing of our intro to #5. Back to the main idea --do not mistake me-- this is about the poem, Jim, were I back at that point eight years ago where I could be polite and say hello to everyone who came through the box I would do so, but if authors think being known to some poetic degree legitimizes sending agreeably lesser work to me, my favorite practice is to tell them exactly where I have seen better current work of theirs. I feel it's my job if they are on target in other places. Most full-size poets write too much, medium size and little poets have a tendency to write less and therefore have a better chance with us. Rather than placing myself above the authors, I feel I owe them for their work and have even went as far as offering an open invitation to poets who have appeared in our issues whose books are sitting at other publishers for us to put pressure on the publisher until the book appears or we end up publishing it. Sometimes we do take a person's first submission, but we usually publish two poems minimum and tell the author --it's a conditional acceptance-- and now they have 6 months to come up with a second accepted piece before they appear in the journal else the acceptance becomes void. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 23:22:54 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "B.E. Basan" Subject: Re: Godfrey is God MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the links. I guess there's not a lot out there on the web. Typical of infinite beings to avoid finite spaces... I came across Godfrey in From the Other Side of the Century and was really blown away by his more lyrical poems, like "Radiant Dog". I really liked the sexual imagery in "Bath". I haven't come across many male poets who write about sex (and write about it well), so this one really stood out. I'm interested in that interview. Is there anything in there about his poetics/process/method any or all? --Ben ----- Original Message ----- From: Randolph Healy To: Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 4:35 AM Subject: Re: Godfrey is God > Some John Godfrey links: > > Odds Lent Bare is at http://hardpress.com/newhp/lingo/authors/godfrey.html > > The Ticket and Feminine Stamp can be found at > http://www.cyberpoems.com/slavery1.html > > and a short bio note with photo http://www.cyberpoems.com/aboutjon.html > > best > > Randolph > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "lee ann brown" > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 3:12 AM > Subject: Godfrey is God > > > Dear B. E. Basan > > > Read _Midnight on Your Left_ (The Figures) first > then > _Where the Weather Suits My Clothes_ (Z Press) > and for > the new one from the Figures I don't have yet > see > www.spdbooks.org > > I remember Lisa Jarnot did a great interview with him in Poetry Project > Newsletter like 2-3 years ago - > > John Godfrey is like the secret New York poet we got to know when we moved > here > > He rocks > > > I have to run now - perhaps others can say more... > > > > Someone should make a folder for him on EPC if they haven't already > > > > Lee Ann > > > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 23:07:48 +0900 > >> From: "B.E. Basan" > >> Subject: Who is John Godfrey? > >> > >> Hi All, > >> Is there any information out there about John Godfrey, even a preface? I > = > > >> can't find anything on the internet. Also, can anyone recommend one of > =3D > >> his books, I only have a few poems. > >> Thanks, > >> Ben > >> > >> ------------------------------ > > > Lee Ann Brown > Tender Buttons > PO Box 13, Cooper Station > NYC 10276 > > (718) 782-8443 home - (646) 734-4157 cell > > "Harmless amulets arm little limbs with poise and charm." > > < Harryette Mullen, Trimmings (Tender Buttons Books) > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 11:00:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jena osman Subject: CHAIN 8 IS HERE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" CHAIN 8: COMICS is now available If you are a contributor or a subscriber, your copies were put in the mail last week. Others can order by sending a check made out to 'A'A Arts for $12 to Jena Osman/Chain Magazine English Department Temple University Anderson Hall (022-29) 1114 W. Berks St. Philadelphia, PA 19122 Contents include works by: Jonathan Allen & John Coletti, Bill Anthony, Peter Bagge, Holly Bittner, Christopher Boucher, Joe Brainard & Robert Creeley, FC Brandt, Ivan Brunetti, Warren Burt, Elizabeth Castagna & Edwin Torres, Isabelle Chemin & Jean-Rene LaSalle, Abigail Child, David Choe, Rey Chow, Emilie Clark & Lyn Hejinian, Peter Conrad, Troy Cook, Martin Corless-Smith & Cathy Wagner, Veronic Corpuz, Brent Cunningham, Jane Dalrymple-Hollo & Anne Waldman, Trane DeVore & David Kirschenbaum, Adam Degraff, Patrick Durgin, Michelle Ellsworth, Larry Feign, Thalia Field, Ellen Forney, Maria Galvez-Breton, Drew Gardner & Gary Sullivan, Stephen Gibson, Phoebe Gloeckner, Arielle Greenberg, Brenda Hillman, Emmanuel Hocquard & Juliette Valery, Sandy Huss, Brenda Iijima, Jeffrey Jullich, Ben Katchor & David Lang & Michael Gordon & Julia Wolfe & David Krasnow, Keith Knight, David Larsen, David Lasky, Paul Lyons, Sawako Nakayasu, Florence Neal, Josh Neufeld, Ron Padgett, Tamara Paris, Raymond Pettibon, Louis Phillips, Jeanne Quinn, Kevin Quigley, Ramez Qureshi, Elizabeth Robinson, David Sandlin, Peter Saul, Leslie Scalapino, Lytle Shaw, Sally Silvers, Chris Slane & Robert Sullivan, Blair Solovy, Virgil Suarez, Lee Tonouchi, John Tranter, Zak Vreeland, Wendy Walker, John Wesley, Mack White, Aleksandar Zogroff, Tom Zummer. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 11:42:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: courts-martial MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Notes on Court-Martial from A Manual For Courts-Martial: Courts of Inquiry and of Other Procedure Under Military Law, Revised in the Judge Advocate General's Office and Published by Authority of the Secretary of War, Cor- rected to April 15, 1917, Washington, Government Printing Office, 1917: ... A fray is a fight in a public place to the terror of the people, in which acts of violence occur or dangerous weapons are exhibited or threatened to be used. All persons aiding or abetting a fray are principals. ... To quell is to quiet, allay, abate, or put down. ... Rape is the having of unlawful carnal knowledge of a woman by force and without her consent. As the carnal knowledge must be unlawfully had, a husband who has carnal knowledge of his wife _forcibly where she does not consent_ is not guilty of this offense; but he is guilty when he assists another man in having such carnal knowledge. Any penetration, however slight, of the woman's genitals is sufficient carnal knowledge, whether emission occurs or not. The offense may be committed on a female of any age, on a man's mistress, or on a common harlot. ... Assault with Intent to Commit Sodomy Sodomy consists in sexual connection with any brut animal, or in sexual connection, per anum, by a man with any man or woman. (Wharton, vol 2, p. 538.) Penetration of the mouth of the person does not constitute this offense,. Both parties are liable as principals if each is adult and consents; but if either be a boy of tender age the adult alone is liable, and although the boy consent the act is still by force. Penetration alone is sufficient. An assault with intent to commit this offense consists of an assault on a human being with intent to penetrate his or her person per anum. ... Analysis and Proof. This articles applies to officers and cadets only. The article defines one offense, viz: 1. CONDUCT UNBECOMING AN OFFICER AND A GENTLEMAN. PROOF. (a) That the accused did or omitted to do the acts as alleged. (b) The circumstances, intent, motive, etc. as specified. ... 163. Specification: In that -----, while posted as a sentinel, did, at -----, on or about the ----- day of -----, 19--, loiter on his post. ... 167. Specification: In that -----, while posted as a sentinel, did, at -----, on or about the ----- day of -----, 19--, sit down on his post. 168. Specification: In that ----- did, at -----, on or about the ----- day of -----, 19--, commit sodomy upon the person of one -----. ... The inducement contemplated is verbal only, but it may include any argu- ment, persuasion, threat, language of discouragement or alarm, or false or incorrect statement which may avail to bring about an unnecessary surrend- er, retreat, or any misbehavior before the enemy. The offense will not be complete, however, unless the words spoken do induce some person other than the accused to misbehave, run away, or abandon or surrender a com- mand. It is to be noted, however, that speaking words whose natural ten- dency is to induce others to do any of these things may in itself consti- tute misbehavior of the speaker within the meaning of the article, although the words spoken induce no misconduct on the part of others. ... I. Misbehavior before the enemy. II. Running away before the enemy. III. Shamefully abandoning or delivering up any command. IV. Speaking words inducing others to misbehave, run away, or abandon or deliver up any command. V. Casting away arms or ammunition. VI. Quitting post or colors to plunder or pillage. VII. Occasioning false alarms. ... The defense had no further testimony to offer and no statement to make, or having no further testimony to offer, made the following verbal statement, Or, having no further testimony to offer, submitted a written statement, Or, requested until --- o'clock -. m. to prepare his defense. ... _ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 08:09:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Strang Subject: Contact Info. for Heather Fuller In-Reply-To: <200108220413.f7M4DrX21874@cluster1.sfsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Can someone please backchannel me with Heather Fuller's email? -- -------------->*<-------------- "We are all trying, with different methods, Brian Strang styles, perhaps even prejudices, to get at Departments of English and ISBA the core of the linguistic pact...which San Francisco State University unites the writer and the other, so that... (415) 338-3098 each moment of discourse is both absolutely bstrang@sfsu.edu new and absolutely understood." -------------->*<-------------- --Roland Barthes ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 12:28:08 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: Why I was a bad poet (was: greatness; editors, editing, etc.) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At one time I had the stupid idea that it would be possible to write poems persuasively in an impoverished idiom which--even though it was deliberately crude, trivial, ironically effortless, etc.--would possess a badness that would be somehow analogous to the sophisticated, expressive badness of paintings by visual artists like Sigmar Polke and Picabia--an aesthetic that, by the way, is almost a cliche in the art world. Now there are a lot of reasons why, as I say, I was being stupid. But fundamentally it was a redundant idea. My biggest mistake was not to see that alternative, av-garde--whatever-you want-to-call-it--poetry is already (by definition) bad. I don't mean this in a pejorative sense necessarily, but it should be obvious that strategems of subversion (or fashion) are always immediately launched by calculated outrages against conventional taste. Everybody today, as Ashbery insists somewhere, is avant-garde. There are New Formalists, of course, and neo-Confessionalists, and so on, but no one takes their own heirarchies of taste for granted anymore, or views these as self-evident or natural (though the degree to which taste is seen to be subjective or objective varies of course along a wide continuum). Get rid of all of the fetishes, dogmas--the excrescences that accumulate around art--and describe the nature of poetry *qua* poetry. Ok--Indefinability--indescribability, even--are paradoxically givens. But it's the very experience of a poem--its affect (indescribable or not)--considered as an end in itself--that is poetry's ultimate value: not cognition, as C. Greenerg writes, but cognitiveness. I'm not expressing this very well; this is just a post to a listserv--no one will get thru the whole thing and, still, I'm only telegraphing my point. But I'm trying i suppose to set up an opposition: that is, while poetry qua poetry resolves, as I said, essentially around the experience of poetry as an end in itself (an experience which is reflexively judgemental: i.e. "this (poem) is worth my attention or not"-- and so dependent on judgements of taste), at the same time the heirarchies of taste have been effectively undermined (for all poets, exp or not) by the av-garde. What have been the strategies of this subversion? My second big mistake, you see, was to take for granted that experimental poetry outrages taste by the renunciations it makes. Its innovations are always a form of something less: less narrative, less syntax, less beauty, less structure, less metaphor, etc., etc. But there comes a point, you know, when saying that you like "bad" poetry, or that you want poetry to share the condition of dirt (as Nate Dorward, I think, recently said to me), or that boring is better, or that the politics, not the quality of a poem, are what's essential--there comes a point when these kinds of things become only a form of bullshitting oneself. **Without taste, there's no such thing as poetry.** Mike and Kasey, I get and follow yr point, but the whole problem w/ contemporary poetry is the evasion of the highest expectations and the heaviest pressures of taste. **Even if the "best" can never be adequately or universally determined for everybody (of course not), you still have to constantly ask this of _yourself_. That is, you either take responsibility for your own taste, or you don't. Which is exactly the opposite of submitting to received ideas. But this is precisely the pressure --the capacity to bear down --that poets and poetry can't seem to stand up to anymore--av-garde or otherwise. There are many talented and brilliant poets--and there are many poems to like--- but the medium they've inherited--as well as the social position of poetry's invisiblity-- is too impoverished to accomplish anything that's not minor. **(I mean it's important to realize that even the so-called conventional poetries have systematically stripped themselves of the genre's traditional resources.)** For alt poetries, the most successful recourse (in certain precincts of the academy) has been a kind of exquisitist writing--Palmer, Guest, Lauterbach, Cole Swenson, Peter Gizzi, and so on--comparable in a way to the turn in the editorial direction that Sun & Moon eventually made. It's often brilliant stuff, but it also manages to be both anemic and somehow too rich. You'll starve on a steady diet, but throw it against the wall and it will stick. What's left, on the one hand, is fashion--which is entirely what is being invoked by the constant rhetoric on this list of "new," "emerging," "younger," poets, editors, readers, academics, blah, blah, blah. On the other hand, the evasion of and the resentment against the demands of taste make possible, I admit, an ethically beautiful experience of community and collaboration. The value of this is at least as great as making "great" art, but you should be aware at least that you're not--you can't be-- doing both at the same time. The way I've settled it for myself is to stop writing poetry. In a way, the academy--the theoretical wing-- left the LangPos way behind. As Perloff suggested a while back, the aesthetic does not have any special value for cultural theorists. What wss impt about LP were the manifestos (irrespective really of whether they were right or wrong); the LPs never were in any theoretical position to promote the poetry *as* poetry, though of course this is what they can't help doing. The impasse is symptomatic of the evasion of taste. Bill Luoma's _My Trip to New York City_ is really the bad book that I wanted to write. Unintentionally, perhaps, he exposes the way that poetry is made now: as a matter of fashion and community--cliquish, humane, competitive (but unambitious). And dumb. And bad, most of all. --Jacques ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 01:26:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Platt Subject: annual thank you MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd like to add my own note of gratitude --- for EPC as well as the List. As a non- academic, working class, and generally isolated poet and reader, the site & its discourse is a lifeline. Thank you all. --- J. PLatt/Chicago ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 14:10:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: affect In-Reply-To: <91.f298ffb.28b53798@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Jacques - I'm shocked to see such a starkly Kermodian argument buried in your sternly Andy-Kaufmanized Nietzsche -- that after all, poetry carries affect -- and I'm not surprised that you've avoided the old linear-logic path of the therefore -- but wouldn't a poetry that transmits on a greater part of the affect spectrum maybe avoid this badness, this superstrain of uncool you seem to diagnose? Eh? The bandit ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 14:50:32 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Re: Why I was a bad poet (was: greatness; editors, editing, etc.) Comments: To: Jacques Debrot In-Reply-To: <91.f298ffb.28b53798@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jacques - Yours is an eloquent post. Nice to hear from you again Jacques. I must "confess" that it is difficult to see you reduce contemporary poetry to the following: "What's left, on the one hand, is fashion--which is entirely what is being invoked by the constant rhetoric on this list of "new," "emerging," "younger," poets, editors, readers, academics, blah, blah, blah. On the other hand, the evasion of and the resentment against the demands of taste make possible, I admit, an ethically beautiful experience of community and collaboration. The value of this is at least as great as making "great" art, but you should be aware at least that you're not--you can't be-- doing both at the same time. The way I've settled it for myself is to stop writing poetry." Fashion, from people you label with "blah", and "evasion of and the resentment against the demands of taste" are all you seem to see left in poetry outside cultural critique and "exquisitist" writing. There's nothing left? Nothing? I do see piles and piles of shit everywhere. It's rare to find a Really Good Poem in all of the journals that go around, and so many collections of poetry seem to be very lazily and unambitiously produced. It does seem much of what I find is all affect, black leather jackets and cool shoes, cigarette smoke and Campari floating between freshly painted walls, the dream of a close-up photo of the author's face on the cover of "Poets & Writers," but that's not everything. Uninspired poetry written by poets in search of content, sure, everywhere. Poems with inspiration and content craft and beauty is rare indeed, if not impossible. That should not be so surprising, however. But I have been surprised that as I have worked harder to find inspired poetry, poetry without regard for 'the correct or the latest theoretical trappings." I have begun to find it. It's around. I'm not sure what you mean by taste, but I think what you mean by it is perhaps some evidence of craft and/or skill in combination with some sort of emergent wondrous property. Something that evokes feelings of wonder and admiration, that says, this is an achievement? I just want to say that the poetry's out there. It's just not always visible around these parts. It takes hard work to find it. There are folks who really try hard not to give a shit about labels, despite the potently viral nature of the label business. And there are inspired folks. But inspiration is remarkably fleet, ephemeral, and conjuring inspiration can be and often is deadly. I'll even be so brave as to give an example of something that I think fits the bill of "inspired", "doesn't resent/reject craft", "is crafted" "possesses content" and "is beautiful": OFFING What your dark eyes take back to itself, hugged in a curve of toughness. The land between us is flat. Let's say we are ruined, Minneapolis, bricked against ourselves. A red rag in the kitchen. This isn't important or I am. I never wanted to touch you and still do. How can we pray or find what collects in heaven, Father. I'd be surprised by elegance, meaning something like rugs and leather. Soft and tough. This. I want belief like this. Leaving the sea is a rag doll I once was. Texas clouds in dreams, swinging. My loving you once, mud puddle, swing set. - Hoa Nguyen, from _Dark_ There are worthy poems out there. And some of them are even written by "young" poets. I do not see the necessity of a disjoint relationship of "an ethically beautiful experience of community and collaboration" and "'great' art". Can you explain why you believe these are necessarily disjoint? Does "greatness" require the effort of no more than one person? I can see a number of possible answers (ones that do not compel me to agree with this negative thesis) and so I wonder if you mean to imply a normative answer or a descriptive answer? Perhaps what you seem to positively advocate is some sort of comparative poetics? Where poetics is not evaluated in terms of some cultural or theoretical substrate but instead in terms of other poems? If so, I think this is a brilliantly lucid and obvious head that maybe every avant-hat has somehow missed. Such an effort would require hard work. Yes, indeed. My interest here is not to prove you wrong or reveal your weaknesses or any sort of come-uppance, but to pique your brain, to see to what extent you have carried out this denuded opprobrium. Best, Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Jacques Debrot > Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 12:28 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Why I was a bad poet (was: greatness; editors, editing, etc.) > > > At one time I had the stupid idea that it would be possible to write poems > persuasively in an impoverished idiom which--even though it was > deliberately > crude, trivial, ironically effortless, etc.--would possess a badness that > would be somehow analogous to the sophisticated, expressive badness of > paintings by visual artists like Sigmar Polke and Picabia--an > aesthetic that, > by the way, is almost a cliche in the art world. > > Now there are a lot of reasons why, as I say, I was being stupid. But > fundamentally it was a redundant idea. My biggest mistake was not to see > that alternative, av-garde--whatever-you want-to-call-it--poetry > is already > (by definition) bad. I don't mean this in a pejorative sense necessarily, > but it should be obvious that strategems of subversion (or fashion) are > always immediately launched by calculated outrages against > conventional taste. > > Everybody today, as Ashbery insists somewhere, is avant-garde. > There are New > Formalists, of course, and neo-Confessionalists, and so on, but > no one takes > their own heirarchies of taste for granted anymore, or views these as > self-evident or natural (though the degree to which taste is seen to be > subjective or objective varies of course along a wide continuum). > > Get rid of all of the fetishes, dogmas--the excrescences that accumulate > around art--and describe the nature of poetry *qua* poetry. > Ok--Indefinability--indescribability, even--are paradoxically givens. But > it's the very experience of a poem--its affect (indescribable or > not)--considered as an end in itself--that is poetry's ultimate > value: not > cognition, as C. Greenerg writes, but cognitiveness. > > I'm not expressing this very well; this is just a post to a > listserv--no one > will get thru the whole thing and, still, I'm only telegraphing my point. > But I'm trying i suppose to set up an opposition: that is, > while poetry qua > poetry resolves, as I said, essentially around the experience of > poetry as an > end in itself (an experience which is reflexively judgemental: i.e. "this > (poem) is worth my attention or not"-- and so dependent on judgements of > taste), at the same time the heirarchies of taste have been effectively > undermined (for all poets, exp or not) by the av-garde. > > What have been the strategies of this subversion? My second big > mistake, you > see, was to take for granted that experimental poetry outrages > taste by the > renunciations it makes. Its innovations are always a form of > something less: > less narrative, less syntax, less beauty, less structure, less metaphor, > etc., etc. But there comes a point, you know, when saying that you like > "bad" poetry, or that you want poetry to share the condition of > dirt (as Nate > Dorward, I think, recently said to me), or that boring is better, > or that the > politics, not the quality of a poem, are what's essential--there comes a > point when these kinds of things become only a form of > bullshitting oneself. > **Without taste, there's no such thing as poetry.** Mike and Kasey, I get > and follow yr point, but the whole problem w/ contemporary poetry is the > evasion of the highest expectations and the heaviest pressures of taste. > > **Even if the "best" can never be adequately or universally determined for > everybody (of course not), you still have to constantly ask this of > _yourself_. That is, you either take responsibility for your own > taste, or > you don't. Which is exactly the opposite of submitting to > received ideas. > > But this is precisely the pressure --the capacity to bear down > --that poets > and poetry can't seem to stand up to anymore--av-garde or > otherwise. There > are many talented and brilliant poets--and there are many poems to like--- > but the medium they've inherited--as well as the social position > of poetry's > invisiblity-- is too impoverished to accomplish anything that's not minor. > **(I mean it's important to realize that even the so-called conventional > poetries have systematically stripped themselves of the genre's > traditional > resources.)** For alt poetries, the most successful recourse (in certain > precincts of the academy) has been a kind of exquisitist writing--Palmer, > Guest, Lauterbach, Cole Swenson, Peter Gizzi, and so > on--comparable in a way > to the turn in the editorial direction that Sun & Moon eventually > made. It's > often brilliant stuff, but it also manages to be both anemic and > somehow too > rich. You'll starve on a steady diet, but throw it against the > wall and it > will stick. > > What's left, on the one hand, is fashion--which is entirely what is being > invoked by the constant rhetoric on this list of "new," "emerging," > "younger," poets, editors, readers, academics, blah, blah, blah. On the > other hand, the evasion of and the resentment against the demands of taste > make possible, I admit, an ethically beautiful experience of community and > collaboration. The value of this is at least as great as making > "great" art, > but you should be aware at least that you're not--you can't be-- > doing both > at the same time. The way I've settled it for myself is to stop writing > poetry. > > > In a way, the academy--the theoretical wing-- left the LangPos way behind. > As Perloff suggested a while back, the aesthetic does not have any special > value for cultural theorists. What wss impt about LP were the manifestos > (irrespective really of whether they were right or wrong); the LPs never > were in any theoretical position to promote the poetry *as* > poetry, though of > course this is what they can't help doing. The impasse is > symptomatic of the > evasion of taste. > > Bill Luoma's _My Trip to New York City_ is really the bad book > that I wanted > to write. Unintentionally, perhaps, he exposes the way that > poetry is made > now: as a matter of fashion and community--cliquish, humane, competitive > (but unambitious). And dumb. And bad, most of all. > > --Jacques > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:43:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: book. the sixth go at it all. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - book. the sixth go at it all. the relationship of consciousness to the world vis-a-vis structure, abstraction, symbolic systems. but the relationship of consciousness to its inscription: who is inscribing: veering back from the concern, blind ambition (see anecdotal) tending towards theoretical thwarting, return of the repressed - immersive and definable structures which are negotiations - irreversible or reversible - hierarchy of such structures - sets and arrows - categories - the implicate orderings of consciousness within all of this - untended: unintended consciousness: my work is already an es- cape, already unfounded: the phenomenological investigation of this rela- tionship requires a certain sensitivity: i have granted myself this: fol- lowing thought into harder structures: following structures into their languor or lassitude: writing, within, or against, the paragraph, writing among texts, return to the repression of style, continuous honing, innuendo, negation, contrary and contradictory, of the sixth go at it, against the other five, the quasi-logical structure of the lifeworld. but which lifeworld, which state of confusion, which state of health: consideration of obsessional neurosis as the holding-forth of the world, radical deposition - the continuous need to inscribe, reinscribe - territorializations and assign- ations - not the theoretics of doubt but the analytic inability to take anything for granted - exhaustion as a condition for the constant recon- struction of the world: thinking of the play or theatrics of the world: methodologies of distancing and absorption: of the sixth go at the philosophical, against the other five, the inter- stice of thought, thought's blurred reminiscence, thought's thoughtless- ness, the potential for philosophical investigation through audio-visual and other media. but what style, what genre: whose investigation, what gender, what methodology, what deployment of desire: questions of periodization, extension of media on a continuous feed-forward basis, inextricably tied down to corporate research and development programs - weakening of them- atic thinking - the need to organization meta-methodologies of search / knowledge strategies - on the other hand the loosening of semantics through the muteness of audio-visual representations - what one might call "kidding ourselves" through the semblance of research: that's all there might be to it: a certain carelessness of thought: fudging, the kludge or glitch: loss of rigor: one might speculate that even the theorization of such loss constitutes a defensive fortification against theorization itself: of the sixth, the go at it, defending the other five goes, of the text which insists on veering out of genre, of the genre of the philosophic, of the literary, the natural order of structure. but what nature: whose nature: whose cooperation: whose corporation: but what contractuality: the natural world under the sign of capital, in-corporation, em/bodiment of nature, the body politic, political body, structure transformed into performance, action - but the chaotic debris of the body - extensions of flesh - subtexting in which the dissolution of language is paramount, and always the problematic of the symbolic - what is the binding of standing-in-for if not already allegory, sign, inscription, intention - think of the bound body as al- ready the hieroglyph and its politicization, the restraint of the symbol- ic: arousal, tumescence, distension, stretched or opened skin: upwelling of debris and frisson, shuddering, stuttering, trembling of the subject: or of the sixth go at it, binding the other five, of the politicization of philosophy, the ideology underpinnings, of the sixth go at it underpinning itself, loosening, "hardly something to write home about," consciousness in relation to subjectivity. but what consciousness: what eidetic reduction: what cognitive mappings: what mathematical catastroph- es: what tropes: the jump cut from phenomenology to mathesis, suturing the subject for whom the book is written, the writing of explanation and description and the problematic situating both, the cusp catastrophe as that leap which creates structural extension, boundary, moving-on - the fold, leaping into the fold, the relationship of the fold catastrophe to the sheffer stroke and its dual - elsewhere of not-both-a-and-b tending towards the nomadic, exhaustion - the exhaustion of "the species" or "the organism" - planetary exhaustion, universal denouement - already present in the specter of death - wandering in the dual - neither-a-nor-b - it is as if it splits: neither one nor the other: then there is the proboscis or exploratory thesis: we have escaped the monadology: of the sixth go at it, expelled from the rest, temporally following after the others, "camp-follower," the go explaining everything, the diegetic or diacritical go, of the interstitial, of all of them, of the goes to come, inserted into enumeration: unaccountable and unaccounted-for: "there's no telling" of the soul: "there's no telling" of the eye: there's no future but hunger: no future but the desire or commitment to one or an/other: there's no telling of the sixth, the sixth does the telling, it's as if the sixth were told to itself, whispered to itself, it's as if the sixth were imaginary or avatar, hardly an insertion, as if the sixth were suddenly, irrevocably, scratched into the text, as if its place were placed and forgotten, as if one "walked away" from meaning and its defen- sive fortification, virtual subjectivity and its relation to protocols, the imaginary, and linguistic performativity. but which protocols: whose imaginary against what inscription and whose thetic: but what languages and what mechanisms of performance/perforation: who is speaking for whom across avatars, first through other persons and tenses, what insistence carries the projection and project of consciousness across real and virtual networks, what of consciousness as such project, what of the peripheral imaginary, the imaginary always already at a loss against or through the symbolic, what of the symbolic as always already foreclosing, what of the toppling of the scheme of things, what of alterities, multiculturalisms, sloughs, symbolic emissions and spews, flows, the flooding of clutter and part-objects - spoken within or spoken-for by avatars - consciousness as dialectic among semantic emissions among subjects only some of which seem real - there are always the virtual among us - ghosts, emanants, kami - ectoplasms at the periphery - prosthetics, prostheses - who among us is cyborg cauterized by insertion of flesh or electronic diegesis - moving among cyborgs - all of us caught in virtual realities - the keywords absent, unknown - we exhaust ourselves avoiding death and its already equally exhausted aporia - we're drawn in and out of it - it's as if the sixth were a portal to the fifth, it's as if the fifth were coming forth, we're speaking as if we're spoken-for: we're spoken-for as if we're speak- ing: imagine a speech bypassing to such an extent that it occupies another stratum entirely: that it appears to come from elsewhere: from neither-a- nor-b: that it is one with aurality: of the sixth which is bypassing, which is already speaking against itself, which is attempting closure, finish, beyond the denouement, which is of the end, ending itself against the rest "of them," the entrapment and proliferation of detail in a partially-cooled universe between plasma and annihilation. but which inscription and which seal: but what decade and what millennium: but what substrate and cosmological constant: and what of the sweeping away of the diachronic, necessary for the therapeutic or functioning of the organism within this space, this imminency, annihilation at the limit taken to the level of the absurd- catastrophic, debris - we're huddled in relation to our own demise - we can smell the fear of it - the phenomenology of scent - nowhere and everywhere at once - the smell of a person indeterminate, unidentifiable, seductive - the procuring of death - writing and writing against it - the continuous evolution of writing into and out of it - writing oneself into existence - writing oneself out of it - the sixth go at it all already written out of it, as if these intersper- sions no longer existed, as if one were subservient to the future anterior, the very scent of the sixth, its huddling, its refugee status, the scent bringing us back: the scent of the w/hole, anal musk: the scent of the cauterization of philosophy: the anal fissure - not the inscription of a / not-a, but the fissure of the same among/within the same: substance fissures, structure breaks at inscription: of neither inscription nor fissure, of the sixth, already broken, of its annoyance, almost the scent of decay, the scent of abjection, falling-apart: the body bound, held taut against or within the generation of the hieroglyph: substance into structure through the release of no-thought: desire: glyph: the unmentioned or unmentionable sixth go at it all, hardly a considera- tion, variorum editions piled on, one after another, as if in collusion, collaboration with the enemy, espionage, each reading the other, of public consumption, the orders and relationships among communication, communality, and sexual- ity. but what mind lost among them: what sado-masochistic part-objects modeling the contractual contrast of the world, who are the communities that assemble consciousness out of linkages and couplings, out of contigu- ities and contingencies, what are the mathematics that operate within these fields such that the addition of a term in a chain may or may not affect that chain, and the withdrawal of a term in a chain may or may not transform the topology - what is the lure of a masochism in which all theoretics are abandoned - the organism at the limit of its existence - "i am still alive" - the shell or hull of the organism - the universal condition - but the rupture from everyday life: but the return: it is at the juncture that the contract is enacted: that use becomes exchange: the incipient or implicit or implicate or emergent quality of the signifier: the word just beginning as the bonds are released: released into the sixth go at it, the problematic of enumeration beginning all over again, releasing the sixth into the hinge between closure and further operations, as if, to operate upon the book, the text, a universe of universal operations, fragility and specificity of operability and the human. but what goodness: but what taxonomies of errors, mistakes, phenomenologies of corrupted or failed teleologies, what judgments, what ethos: the constant collapse in the face of catastrophe, beginning and ending with ground zero, the null of physics politicized, culturalized, as the embedding of the focal-point within the aegis of any project of the subject - the implosion of infor- mation within and without the subject - think of the skein or membrane of the subject, subjectivity - network subjectivity, subjective networking - embedded survival - "i am still alive" - "i" turns against itself: is turned: is shredded: cannot turn: loses "its" domain: fissures: it is here within this fissuring that "i come closest to the substance of the world": but the sixth go at it is not the sixth go at it all, not of the sub- stance of which it is a part, not fissured or broken down, not corrupted, propositional logics and the elsewhere of the sheffer stroke and its dual. but whose withdrawal of the not-both-a-and-b, whose banishment of neither- a-nor-b: what of the stroke itself engendered as | in relation to the dual v, the stroke retaining the dissemination of division, the dual tending towards the problematic of the scapegoat and expulsion - the nomadicism of the disappearing map - the implosion of the map into the real - nomadic annihilation of landmark, fluid kinship entities, constant transformations - one might say survival "at any cost" - there are no universal discourses - no discourses of the universe - automated writing - the philosophical writing of/by the automaton - the writing of the tape-recorder: imagine such without tape: it is the machine which is speaking: it is speaking through us: it is a far cry from the turing machine: turing's cry: of, somewhere along the line, the final go at it, the manuscript put aside, the book completed, the philosophical argument temporarily term- inated, the professor returns to her study, returns home, the professor has a meal, go to sleep, dreams, the professor wakes in the morning, decides just for once not to go to work this day, doubt and deconstruction of conclusions. but whose doubt against what standards and relativisms: what auguries of truth and denial: what obses- sional neuroses: what ignorance, incoherencies: the autobiography of the leap, short-circuiting or short-cutting ignorance, as if something could be made out of whole cloth, there are always strategies of apology, implications of humility, everything in the way, no clarity towards its absence - theoretical weakening, weak theory, as the shifting behind the scenes - think of the submerged philosophy of submergence in relation to extruded theoretical abstraction, pronouncement, death and facticity - the humility of the masochist: the transformation into substance: from there the pronouncement of no pronouncement: there is no mirror, no dust: there is no body: the professor puts the manuscript of the sixth go aside, just for the moment; the book "has almost completed itself," the book is "as finished as it's going to be," "i've done with the book," the scientific as that methodology among others, in spite of heuristic breakdowns and the problematic of mathematics. what crystalline mechanism inherent of the tractatus-logico-philosophicus, what neoplatonism, what conventions, inscriptive labor: retaining the last vestige of ontology, giving existence a nearly-decomposable structure from groundwork to lifeworld, superstructure disconnections, proliferations of objects, elements, particles, things, organisms, universal constructs of contrasts and boundaries, boundaries maintenance, the general economy of inscription - episteme and ontology blurred - interpenetrations of regimes and domains - conventionalisms and idealities both subject to the same dis/ease of heuristic - bricolage or making-do in the world - this is hardly satisfac- tory for anyone - this is hardly the case of the world - the case of the world in relation then to the case of our being, dasein - the case of the world in relation to dis/ease - but there is no case: there is no world "such that it or that is the case": there is always the case that one does or does not make: there is always the general case but never the most general case: the case comes to a close, the professor muses, at least at the sixth go of it all, it's by and large, at least for the moment, i'm going to have a breather, the topology of intention and neurality in relation to externalized mind and memory. but what privilege of data-banks, whose computers, whose optical fiber, whose skein of satellites, what membranes and firewalls, whose hackings and what penetrations: the future of networkings among multi-taskings, virtual realities, information wars, incandescent sexual hysterias, thickened communalities, and the relationships among these and other futures vis-a-vis theoretical abstraction and general accounts of cultural and universal creation - teledildonics and nodal bodies - voy- eurisms and exhibitionisms as inversions or dissolutions of entities, categoricities - the splayed or opened body - the body displaying or opening - the w/hole of the body - disruption or perturbation of percep- tion - the skeins of death and exhilaration - the splayed or opened electric body: mesh of contacts: bridgings, spark-gaps, tesla coils, stelarc-penetrations as flesh turns nebulous turns nebula: the absolute revulsion against secrecy is also the revulsion against language and the foreclosing of the signifier: bell's theorems as the body scatters: it's kept in contact: it's kept in contact with the skein: with nothing: with itself: with the semantics of foreclosed entities: i'm going to enjoy myself after the fifth, before the seventh, she thinks of the trajectory, of the content and indexicality of the book, of its weight, the cover chosen by the publisher (an unknown chinese painting of the sung dynasty), of the narrative faltering, almost bring the work "to its knees," partial-objects and partial-mappings as givens in the construction and reconstruction of the world. but of the gathering of accumulations and assemblage of fragments, of the clutter and a-historicity of the world: the disappearance of history, resonance of ideological tendencies among historiographies, irrelevance of historical and theoretical recuperation, the loss of the world among the world - the absolute loss of the world in the future of the cosmos - writing/inscribing degree zero - the horizon of the uselessness of organism - continuous eroding of transcendence - grasping or cohering of imminence - loss of imminence: of the sixth, here and now, of its inscription, it might be any of a series, accounted for, the terms begin to blur, one into the other, each revision another addition or edition, except for the punctuation, she muses, you could hardly tell where one ends and the other begins, loss of positionality: what is unaccounted-for: accountancy and the de- marcation of nodes, direct and indirect addressing: a list of cases: if not 1 then 2; if not to then 3; if not n then endif: every content an indirect addressing, including the sixth, tending towards those resonances already discussed, in which feedbacks collapse into skeins of relationships, the use of cases, examples, anecdotality, perceptual modes, in relation to theoretical abstraction. what stories hidden with failures, ridden with failures, gaps in texts, hiatus, ignorance: what negations (there are none): what tales (they're all fiction): what parables (pretense!): and in relation to the audience, what demographics following what core phenomena, core metaphors, what one might tell you of an evening in miami with grack- les scrabbling among scraps of food already evincing a symbolic construc- ted among all of us in crude parody of heisenbergian sheffer-stroke quasi- analytical approaches, as if the natural world were no longer problematic but a gift towards the understanding - or now, outside this hotel room #330 there are cartons of palm pdas on the landing - they have been there all day - some are opened, people are taking them - i imagine, idiotic- ally, vast supplies of drugs - they're payoff - everyone knows what's going on - right outside the window here - taken fearlessly - personal communications and informal economies - more and more networks opening up - you can see all of this from the window - i've drawn the shades - maybe witnesses conveniently disappear - imagination runs wild - one never knows - she arches her body naked on the bed: there are people outside: her holes are visible, open: she is speaking: "i am alan sondheim's beautiful wife, welcome to miami": he is sitting naked, erect, on a chair, his face covered with her panties: he's moaning: the sound resonates with the tunnel reverberation effect in final cut pro: the camera cuts between the two of them: cuts to apartment-houses, children playing: cuts to people walking down a street: cuts to an office interior: she's listening to him moan, she's completed the book, strangely excited now, her mind drifting to other things after the sixth, he's her neurotic husband, can hardly keep his mind focused, he's always falling apart, always building worlds out of nothing, or nothing out of worlds, it's beginning to make less and less of a difference, the virtual is descending like a dark cloud, impenetrable, onto the subject, any subject, any human being, she thinks, exhaustion, defuge, and the wavering of existence in terms of the physical well-being of the body, as well as the deconstruction of that well-being. but what disease of the writer, what writing-disease: what textual wound- ing: what ending to what written world: what semantics, what syntactic endings: from indo-european to the absence of the subject in the sentence, the absence of the eye and the shifter, the winding up of the winding- sheet and loosening of the world from language in relation to or in spite of natural kinds, rigid designators, performatives, proper names, who are alan sondheim, daishin nikuko, who are julu-jennifer - what wounding of informal economies - what disseminations - you can have any name you want - take any gender - it's all there for the asking - nervously looking out the window - who will be next - here in the motel room - what knocks on the door - emptied hallways - strangely quiet around here - the camcorder runs on: everything is broken up: entities, circulations created: here is a thing now: this is the thing: of the sixth of which this is all there is, the computer runs, the hard- drive recoiling with entry after entry, the suppuration of the file itself, what might have been canonically inert, now open in the digital to eternal salvation on one hand, continuous change, revision, hacking, on the other, this is the first thing: this is the only thing there is: of the sixth, almost the disappearance of the bones, of the bones, almost the disappearance of the marrow, of the marrow, the disappearance of the flesh, but the dis/ease of writing - sound of keys - i can't stop this - the living representation of information society - at work on the network - gasping for breath on the network: holding our own on the network: a swarm of us: groups of us: groups of us writing through her, assembling the sixth go at it all, muted conversation about the sixth, it's continuity and careful honing, we arrive at everything through collaboration, discussion, you'd be surprised at how few disagreements there are, what writing: what loss of writing to the world: such presumption that continuous production becomes closer to the thing, defines it, the "thing" or "it" or production, that the model of labor creates and forecloses among entities, that divisions and boundary phenomenology are somehow riddled with existence - always honing in - always flying apart - them- atic thickening, weakening - the philosophy in this book - this attempt or collocation of thought - this process of thinking - a kind of jabbering back and forth from systems of representation through structuralisms always nearly-decomposable, bricolaged, falling apart - writing ground down - inscription as well - into the abstraction of thought constantly retethered - the thinking of the return - nomadic homing-in - corrals prevent chaos: cages break down disseminations: locks contain spews: banks hold back floods: muscle tension retains shit: "slips of the lips sink ships": she's opening herself up to herself for the first time, she thinks, now that the work's done, now that i have myself, she's looking in the mirror, naked, closely examining her body, that of or within existence - that of the nought, cipher - of weyl's cartesian origin as the last vestige of the ego in mathematization - you can always locate from that point - sufficient vectors, orthogonal or not - giving thought the substrate necessary for reading - writing - or is it in fact necessary: consider a flooded reading, a reading without order: phrases and fragments, resonances out of which a certain philosophic tone: philosophy itself: emerges: she thinks, i've stuttered everywhere among myself, i've felt my texts run through me repeatedly, i've mouthed them insistently, i've cut crystal out of them, i've brought them to their knees, returning to the apparatus or partial-objects necessary for this - most recently bought an antique glass pen - dip it in the ink, write for a third of a page or so - hand-blown - here working with components made in malaysia - the result of academic exchange - there are data-bases involved - obsolescences - atavisms and dead media - prosthetics even in the illumination of the screen (from before or behind) - what it is you are reading "this" in - a whole system of temporary equivalences, technologies - repetitions of databases - never forgetting a thing - neither the fifth nor the fourth; neither the fourth nor the third; nei= ther the third nor the second which, almost mewling, crept along the theoretical substrate desperate for suturing, neither the second nor the first, far too exposed, inverted, laying the groundwork, withdrawing simultaneously, of a certain breathing of the text, writing into this: section by section: paragraph by paragraph: each revi- sion as if it were the last: the most important: each addition a more careful construct: the work appearing from the inside-out: philosophy unbound: of the sixth go at it all, the revision or breathing of the text, she is sleeping soundly for the first time in her life, there are small cells, cancer, in her left breast, just a few of them, they are feeding, _ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:19:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Anthologies/Michael Waters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT In 2 Parts: Part I 2 cents about the poetics/politics of anthologies: Um, I don't really think emailing Michael Waters to voice one's displeasure with the 7th edition of Contemporary American Poetry is very helpful. Neither, though, am I going to buy one. The thrust of this anthology is toward the introductory teaching of poetry, and the reigning method of teaching poetry these days is through systematic cultural narratives, driven by the parsonal "I". This anthology is fairly inclusive of mainstream cultural practitioners of this period style. (I still can't figure out why they dumped Mary Oliver though.) It's quite in line with its target audience, I think. I'm not in its target audience though. I still find the Norton Post Modern anthology that Hoover edited to be the best for my uses. In 2 Parts: Part II I think we should all go out and spend our big tax refund checks on anthologies like the Norton. In fact, I challenge all 900 or so members of the POETICS list to pick two books of poetry and to go out and buy them. Imagine selling 900 copies of a book of poetry. It might even become popular . . . gads. I suggest maybe Rae Armantrout's "Veil : New and Selected Poems" which will be out soon? Or maybe Anselm Hollo's "Notes on the Possibilities and Attractions of Existence"? What do you think? Make our anti-laureate a best seller? JG ------------------------- JGallaher "How has the human spirit ever survived the terrific literature with which it has had to contend?" --Wallace Stevens ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 16:44:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: against new old-fogeyism Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Jeffrey Jullich: >We do not need new poetry....The sheer numbers of poets at this point >threatens to drown out perception of any one. Jacques Debrot: >What's left, on the one hand, is fashion--which is entirely what is >being >invoked by the constant rhetoric on this list >of "new," "emerging," >"younger," poets, editors, readers, academics, >blah, blah, blah. On the >other hand, the evasion of and the >resentment against the demands of taste >make possible, I admit, an ethically beautiful experience of community and >collaboration. The >value of this is at least as great as making "great" >art, but you >should be aware at least that you're not--you can't be-- >doing both >at the same time. The way I've settled it for myself is to stop >writing >poetry. Larry Fagan interview from the Poetry Project Newsletter, Summer 2001: >Daniel Kane: Some of you old fogies continue to grouse about current >poetry. >Larry Fagan: And we will until we die. Unless it changes. >Daniel Kane: Can you specify your complaints? >Larry Fagan: Well, let's see...The obsession with the recent past seems >shallow at >best. The way poets try to extract the ironic tone of 60s >poetry--all the faux Frank O'Hara stuff--comes off like lame stand-up >comedy--lots of name- >dropping and product placement. And the timing is way off. >Daniel Kane: It sounds like you've been attending poetry readings >lately! >Larry Fagan: Some. There's so much playing to the crowd, which is a >way to >connect with one another, I guess. Conversely, there's a good >deal of >fractiousness and paranoia. So, who knows if there's a real >community to >speak of? Younger writers don't seem to have that much >in common, except > >a desire for self-expression and the fact that they >have to work like >stevedores to meet their absurdly high overheads. >So they can't be >serious. And they're no fun. >Daniel Kane: Is the nervous tittering you mention really nervousness >or >in-crowd clubbiness? >Larry Fagan: I dunno, maybe it's the anxiety of wanting to belong. >Plus >ambition, which is silly because there's so little at stake....In >fact, it >would be fine with me if everyone were to stop writing for, >say, five >years. Apologies for the long preamble. Pierre's post has given me opportunity to touch upon Larry's interview and Jeffrey's attitude: This is all utter nonsense. What we are witnessing, what we are enduring, is a new old-fogeyism: a fanatical, nostaligic golden look back at our art, at all art. These voices tell us, "Sorry, kids, we had it great and you missed it." Bullshit. These voices tell us, "Poetry doesn't mean what it used to, poets aren't as smart as they used to be, our magazines were better, our poems were better, our poets were better. Our weed, our sex, our boys and our girls--it was non-stop heaven." Bullshit. These voices tell us "We had greatness, we had rythym, we have our Mt. Rushmore of poets, and now we just need to stop." Bullshit. I don't think you had to be a white guy and go to Harvard in the 1950's to be a poet in this country. Do we need new poetry? Yes. Do we need new poetry from you? You decide. Curl up with your favorite golden oldies by the fire and remember how great it was, nobody's stopping you. The rest of us will be writing. Mom and Dad, I'm glad you don't like my music. It's 9:30, why don't you go to bed now? --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 17:59:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: sylvester pollet Subject: Beinecke Assistant Curator Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >X-Sieve: cmu-sieve 2.0 >X-Sender: pcwillis@pcwillis.mail.yale.edu >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:25:01 -0400 >Reply-To: - Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine > >Sender: - Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine > >From: Patricia Willis >Subject: Beinecke Assistant Curator >Comments: To: Ezra@yale.edu.Pound.discussion.list.of.the.University.of.Maine >Comments: cc: modernism@lists.village.virginia.edu, > MODERN_POETS-L@lists.missouri.edu >To: EPOUND-L@LISTS.MAINE.EDU > >Please post this job opening as possible. Thank you, Pat Willis > > Librarian II > (Assistant Curator ) > Requisition #: >LDTN8644 > Back to the summary | View printable version > Posting Date: >7/27/01 > > > Department: LIB/Beinecke > Work Site: 121 Wall Street > Salary Grade: 24 > Duration: REGULAR - 12 MONTHS > > > Schedule/shift: Full Time - 37.5 HRS; Weekdays M-F 8:30-5:00 > Internal applicants send bids to: Diane Turner, Sterling Memorial >Library > > Job Description: > General Purpose > Under the guidance of the Curator of the Yale Collection of American >Literature, the Assistant Curator > shares responsibility for designing and mounting exhibitions, >planning scholarly programs, and > participating in collection development across a broad range of >materials, including books, > manuscripts, ephemera, broadsides, photographs, and electronic media. > > Essential Duties > 1. Work with the cataloging, conservation, and preservation units of >the library to meet the needs of the > collection in those areas. > 2. Provide specialized assistance to researchers in person and at a >distance and collaborates with the > public services unit to provide reference service, including >possible service on Saturdays and > evenings. > 3. The Assistant Curator has opportunities to engage in instruction, >teaching, and classroom > presentation. > 4. The Assistant Curator is encouraged to publish scholarly works >that promote the collection and is > expected to be active professionally. > > Experience and Training > 1. Ph.D. or an equivalent scope of knowledge in American literature, >American studies, or other > appropriate field, including African American Studies or Women's >Studies. > 2. M.L.S. from an ALA-accredited school and proficiency in one or >more modern European languages > desirable. > 3. Appointment to the Librarian II rank requires two years of >professional experience and demonstrated > professional accomplishments appropriate to the rank. Appointment to >the Librarian III rank requires > five years of professional experience and demonstrated professional >accomplishments appropriate to > the rank. > > Skills and Abilities > 1. Ability to plan and execute effective programs and to manage >diverse collection activities. > 2. Commitment to organizational and technological change. > 3. Excellent interpersonal and communication skills. >______________________________________ >Patricia C. Willis >Curator, The Yale Collection of American Literature >Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library >Yale University >121 Wall Street >P. O. Box 208240 >New Haven CT 06520-8240 >Tel: 203/432-2962 >Fax: 203/432-4047 >Website: >http://www.library.yale.edu/beinecke/ > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 18:05:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: poem formed from Custom Spelling Dictionary In-Reply-To: <3B83EF32.A39B0505@wheaton.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable My friend, the renaissance scholar Keith Jones, sent me this, his original composition--like some pre-information-age sondheim. If that would have been possible. ---------- A Poem, Written in Late Summer Using (Almost) Exclusively the Words Found in my Custom Spelling Dictionary ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Andromache and Andronicus dream'd doubleness. "Deprovincialize!" woo'd Andromache, "Hogarth's Hooykaas bow'd atomistical." II.Argument "Is't e'en worser, arhythmic knaue?" Andronicus dispatch'd. "Iwis Oudjavaansche-Nederiandsche and Grumio's abandon'd Nietszchean interpretatio Turn'd Spinoza We=EFrd." I.iv whatsoe'er is passionlessness whatsoe'er is obsessiveness whatsoe'er is disquietfulness, punctuateness, shrewishness, unaccommodated, unconsequenced, unillusioned, unmaterialistic, unsocial, unvarious, . . . . . . . . . wive, Sirrah, wive. Damn'd cockfighters. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 12:21:49 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: m&r..re Jonas Berry.... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Come on: Ashbery puts Shakespear to shame. Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Nudel" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 3:21 PM Subject: m&r..re Jonas Berry.... > looking back at certain 20th cent... pre e-lit poets...like Ashbery... to my ear... they sound like Elinor Wylie or William Rose Benet...the muse has fled but the echo remains...Drn... > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 17:56:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson Subject: hopscotch negotiables & the true verb Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Not all caught up yet jumping in... I've been thinking about the mystery of editing, which in my opinion Patrick and Jim have referred to. There's just no way to know entirely what's happening and to glean all the tactics and powers of what's going on in literature in one's own time or perhaps any time (this goes perhaps to Kasey's GREAT post). And who would want to. Thus I do like to try to include a variety, or at least to be OPEN as an editor. I hope there is more talk of that. To listen to the weather, and hope not to end up as corny as the local weatherperson. Editing by manifestoes would be to me like assuming it will rain all of November in the Bay Area, tho it hasn't since I was in high school, and reporting that no matter what really occurred. One reason we use themes at Outlet is to help in the editorial decision making process; and another way of being OPEN is sharing these decisions with co-editors, tho I admit as the pubber I do take my own direction most often (tho I don't live by manifesto, even tho I am seen in some quarters as a raging feminist). Another reason is that having a theme, it seems to me, helps in readers who are perhaps not schooled or opinionated in the exact same readerly pattern or curiosity as me. My hope is that's a way to let them into the reading of some of the more experimental work we publish. As far as rejecting solicited work, and this is just as advice to anyone in the thick of it, I have tried to either a.) ask for a specific piece I've just heard someone read or b.) ask for work from someone who I am confident, thru extensive reading of their work, that I'll be able to pick say at least one of three things they send me. And on the topic of MOMS, I don't disagree with anything Laurie or Rachel said, but I would add that in my days I've seen moms respected in ways that no one else is, and that has seemed right to me. I of course have also seen them disrespected in ways no one else is. This seems proper at times too, on an individual, not a cultural, level. To disrespect moms and women on a cultural level is basically the road to hell in a handbasket, if you believe in the phrasing. As for the talk of a certain pop star, I would think the last name might be a hint as to her "ethnicity"; not necessarily a label of fact, but a hint, and I think Dodie's point was quite well taken. Cheers all, Elizabeth __________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell http://www.poetrypress.com/avec/populace.html "Part little Serpents, or odd Flies, or Worms, or any strange Thing" --Aphra Behn _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 18:25:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson Subject: SASE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Michael Amberwind wrote: Do not pay entry fees. Do not get subscriptions as a price of being considered. Do not pay an agent. Do not listen to "no unsolicited manuscripts". Send the poems, the cover letter and (if you want it back) an SASE. If you don't want to have a slush pile, DON'T START A LITERARY MAGAZINE! And parachuting Tom Cruise I say: Michael, you lost me with that SASE comment. Dude, include a SASE. Consideration 101. x Miss Manners __________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell http://www.poetrypress.com/avec/populace.html "Part little Serpents, or odd Flies, or Worms, or any strange Thing" --Aphra Behn _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:05:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: 11 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed This introduces: 11 magazine viewable at canwehaveourballback.com/11.htm with poems by: Michael Magee Margie Shaheed Jumper Bloom Jordan Davis 11 magazine was sent on loose leaf in envelopes to 11 random subscribers named "Zoe Johnson" in 9 states. If you would like to receive a copy, e-mail to cleversigninname@hotmail.com. Take good care. Jim _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 21:16:55 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Webster Schultz Subject: books books books books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please forward this message. Get Tinfish "textbooks" for the coming semester!!! Please consider teaching Tinfish Press books this semester, or next. The = books have been taught in at least half a dozen classes at the = University of Hawai`i and UC Santa Cruz. Here are some possibilities: If you're teaching a class in prose poetry or the elegy, try Bill = Luoma's Dear Dad ($5). Designed by Gaye Chan. Teaching the sonnet? Nell Altizer's Thin Space is a sequence about a = love affair in Ireland between two persons over 60 ($5). Designed by = Suzanne Kosanke. If you're interested in gay and lesbian OR Asian American studies OR in = the prose poem, try Lisa Asagi and Gaye Chan's Physics and 12 Scenes of = 12 a.m. (2 for $7: they fold out as exquisitely designed maps). If you teach Pacific Rim studies or Australian and American poetry, use = Rob Wilson's Pacific Postmodern ($5). Designed by KC Mah. If language issues catch your fancy, order up Lisa Kanae's forthcoming = (soon!), Sista Tongue, an essay/memoir about speaking pidgin (Hawai`i = Creole English). Incredible design work by Kristin Gonzales. Unpriced = yet. I expect them in about a month. I still have some copies of Kathy Banggo's 4-evaz, Anna, as well ($5), = in its third edition. I would be happy to send out sample teaching copies of any of these = books. Just send an email message to me. Expect Tinfish 11 in the near future with a new art centerfold and = one-of-a-kind covers (as usual)..and Three Vietnamese Poets in = Translation, by Linh Dinh. Both designed by Stuart Henley. Thanks, Susan Schultz 47-728 Hui Kelu Street #9 Kaneohe, HI 96744 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 06:24:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: m&r.. STUPAH..... wondering if any one knows if the Naropa Poets had a hand in raising that monumental image of the Buddha.... it's what used to be called..incorrectly a Pagan Idol..& is now called a STUPAH...no comment..but which is proof positive of my theory...BIGGER BUDDAH BEST...for the feminists on the list this also works for breasts...Drn.. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 06:29:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: m&r...B.B.B... footnote to the above/below...BBB also works for Books...Drn.. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 09:23:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Henry Subject: AUGHT #6 (2001) online Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I'm pleased to announce that the latest issue of the poetry e-journal AUGHT is online. AUGHT #6 features exciting new work from 11 innovative poets running the range from widely-published to never-before-published. You'll find work by Bill Freind, Christopher Mulrooney, Louis Armand, Thomas Fink, Andrew Shelley, Derek White, DJ Huppatz, Francis Raven, Neville Attkins, Charles Tillman, and Lewis Lacook. AUGHT #6 resides on the Internet at: http://people2.clarityconnect.com/webpages6/ronhenry/aught6.htm . Past issues of AUGHT remain online as well, and include poems by Sheila E. Murphy, Michael Farrell, Ken Sherwood, Jonathan Monroe, Larry Sawyer, Catherine Daly, Annabelle Clippinger, Bertha Greschak, Joel Chace, Rob Faivre, Chris Piuma, and Dana Standridge, among others. All past issues of AUGHT can be accessed through the main AUGHT web page at: http://people2.clarityconnect.com/webpages6/ronhenry/aught.htm . Once again, I thank all those who have supported AUGHT with their contributions over the years. AUGHT is always open to submissions of innovative poetry. I anticipate that the next issue, AUGHT #7, will appear before the end of 2001. -- Ron Henry, Editor, AUGHT ronhenry@clarityconnect.com http://people2.clarityconnect.com/webpages6/ronhenry/aught.htm "Back and backward, why, wide and wider. Such that art is inseparable from the search for reality." -- Lyn Hejinian, _My Life_ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 10:30:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: link to Phoebe Gloeckner article Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I found a link to the aforementioned article on Phoebe Gloecker: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/05/magazine/05COMICS.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 09:47:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcella Durand Subject: edit, editors, editing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Aaron, The question for me is not so much whether temporal durability is a legitimate measure (or "principle" is the word you use--almost like using the "test of time" as a definition of good art is a moral stance) of good poetry, but why poets (and, therefore, supposedly, "active" readers) would want to use it as such? It seems like the most extremely dull (as well as unreliable) way to gauge good poetry, only to be used if you're stuck at the very last moment for something to teach your students (i.e., Here kids, here's the oldest texts I found still in print! Assyrian-Babylonian stone tablets listing olive oil sales! Pop quiz at the end of class!). I mean, what is the "test of time" anyhow? Some sort of mathematical model of greatest popularity (and do we mean popular with critics? The masses?) plus durability of physical materials over longest length of time? X times Y equals = Great Art that Has Meaning & Significance for Many (European? American?) Generations? best, M (Letting her assessment of a principle be overwhelmed with questions) > Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 16:34:16 -0500 > From: Aaron Belz > Subject: Re: edit, editors, editing > > > Also, I very strongly disagree with "good" artwork as that which has > stood > > the test of time. > > Marcella, > > Don't you think that "the test of time" is at least *one* way of > identifying > good artwork? The thought is, I think, that over time, fashion doesn't > survive -- pretty flashes, little signals, etc, likewise perish -- but > good > artwork holds meaning for generations. This kind of 'good' artwork > balances > carefully between temporal applicability and long-term ('universal') > significance. I know, I know, we of the corrected ideologies resist the > idea > of universal meanings, trans-cultural significances, etc. But don't you > think that there are some 'good artworks' that do 'stand the test of > time'? > I mean, at the very least, and in careful application, isn't it a > legitimate > measure? > > > > This idea has been used to justify the existence of the > > current white-male-dominated canon. > > Let not your assessment of a principle be overwhelmed by your righteous > (and > right) disgust at its abuses. > > I concur with Michael Magee that Kasey's post on greatness was very > helpful. > Thanks. > > > -Aaron Belz > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 10:48:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: against new old-fogeyism In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > > Mom and Dad, I'm glad you don't like my music. It's 9:30, > why don't you go to bed now? > Hey, Jim, a new venture for you: Whydontyougotobednow.com I'm beginning to see how these things cross your mind! -Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:19:34 -0600 Reply-To: derek beaulieu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: derek beaulieu Organization: housepress Subject: housepress: new books from Budde & Barbour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit housepress is pleased to announce the release of 2 new chapbooks: "up there, yes, up there" by Douglas Barbour - a word by word homolinguistic translation of PBShelley's Mont Blanc - limited numbered edition of 50 handbound copies - $2.00 "6 Paratactic Readings of the Coalition for a Humanistic British Canada's Policy Statement (Winnipeg Free Press, Saturday, Octobr 9, 1999); OR, TRIANGE -- Dampening the Amperage of Empire, Filtering the already known, Puiping in Reverb and Gradients to better hear the H-hate" by Rob Budde - a sound poem translation - limited numbered edition fo 50 handbound copies, each with handprinted linocut front covers. - $5.00 for more information, or to order copies, contact derek beaulieu (housepress) at: housepress@home.com www.telusplanet.net/public/housepre ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 10:52:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kristin Palm Subject: poets union Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit If there were a poets union I'd vote to boycott > contests, reading fees and subscribe-to-publish > nonsense. Sardonic (and right-on) nature of this post aside, the National Writers Union does have a poetry division. While, unfortunately, the issue of boycotting contests rarely, if ever, arises (matter of fact, they hold a contest of their own once a year, I believe), they do offer such useful services as contract advice and health insurance. On the journalism front, they are currently waging an all-out war against none other than the New York Times and, now, AOL/Time Warner -- and winning! Tasini v. New York Times held that freelance writers must be paid for electronic reproduction of their work. In response the NYT has threatened to pull freelance writers' work from all electronic databases rather than pay them their due. The union is also fighting AOLTW's new work-for-hire contract, a convention all too common in this field. To join, offer support, etc., visit www.nwu.org kp ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 12:58:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Why I was a bad poet (was: greatness; editors, editing, etc.) In-Reply-To: <91.f298ffb.28b53798@aol.com> from "Jacques Debrot" at Aug 22, 2001 12:28:08 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jacques, I wanted to respond to your "I was a bad poet" post which was, as always, provocative. What follows may at times seem a bit harshly critical, I don't know -- anyway it's said with confidence in our friendship, a belief in its public usefulness (and a dislike of backchanneling) and, most of all, a desire that you not stop writing poems. Taste still seems to me a wholly negative term and concept ÐÐ and though you're no doubt right that the critique of taste has made possible a relativistic laziness and its concomitant apology, this fact doesn't stand as a convincing argument for taste. The problem with taste (as I tried to outline in my editor's note to COMBO 8 and more recently on the "New-Poetry" list) is that it's obscurantist by nature: "I simply prefer good art to bad," as Greenberg put it. Negatively inflected innovation may in the end be bullshit but its bullshit of a much higher quality than Greenberg's. And you give everyone way too much credit when you suggest that "no one takes their own hierarchies of taste for granted anymore" -- at the risk of pissing you off I'd suggest that this view might be a sign of your own insularity more than anything else. Likewise Ashbery's "Everybody today is avant-garde" (if that's the precise quote) seems to me an empty truism, my love for Ashbery notwithstanding. My experience with poets involved in (as teachers, students, alums), let's say, non-experimentally inclined MFA programs, is that they mystify "Language Poetry" into something close to witchcraft ("You're not a language poet, are you," is something I've heard more than once.) This isn't the fault of any one person, it's simply the consequence of coersion, exclusivity -- things you'd find, incidentally, in experimental poetry communities too. I'll say it again: the people who hate X or Y poetry/poets do so as a result of *some* process of institutionalization. Everyone else is either indifferent, or, luck of luck, runs into a poem which becomes an experience-of-reading outside the bounds of taste. That process is multifarious indeed. And I simply reject the notion that, say, Perelman's "Captive Audience" is somehow an unreadable document or unpleasurable outside the bonds of its theoretical frame. Which brings me back to taste: I agree with you, whole heartedly, that poets need "the capacity to bear down," though I'd disagree, somewhat, with the nostalgic suggestion that this is something "poetry can't seem to stand up to anymore" -- that's a complaint found decade after decade into the fog of prehistory. I would prefer to replace a term like taste with something suggesting effort, -- ambitious-ness as distinct from ambition, somehow: like what Creeley said about the Black Arts writers: "they are not fooling, so to speak, and their action tends to follow the literal path of their commitment." It seems to me that what needs to be queried by readers (and writers) of poetry is the nature of that commitment -- the question of what a poem is designed to do (or in any event what it does) for a poet and her audience. Also what it might potentially do (here the question of design is important). This replaces taste for me: instead of "I like what's good" you get "I like the poem that does this becauseÉ" The explanation may be ridiculous, the reading of the poem limited, self-willed, whathaveyou; but it will inevitably invite a response and a dialogue and this is a distinct advantage over Greenbergian elitist transparency. The idea that the poem designed to encourage an "ethically beautiful experience of community an collaboration" can't be "great art," that the two practices are mutually exclusive -- well, it just seems to fly in the face of much evidence to the contrary to me. Baraka's AM/TRAK is both; Dickinson's poetry is both, etc etc etc. I think the problem more central to your concerns is "fashion" -- by which I take you to mean the poem designed to gain cultural capital for the poet. At times you seem to suggest, despairingly and with Bourdieu very much in mind, that this is in fact all a poem ever does, and that any other explanation for its being is mere apology. Perhaps I'm misrepresenting you, but whether you believe it or not it's to my mind a bad reading of Bourdieu and in any event not a fruitful way to think about the making of poems. I myself sometimes want to write a poem as ridiculously sincere as an ABBA song (say, "SOS" rather than "Dancing Queen"). But I don't do it, I take a bigger risk. There's always room for ABBA afterward. -m. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 13:24:30 -0400 Reply-To: jamie.perez@akqa.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jamie Gaughran-Perez Organization: AKQA Subject: editors who edit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit how many magazine editors out there actually take an "editorial" approach towards submitted poetry/fiction beyond just "accept/reject"? how would this be like/unlike workshopping? if you've done it how was it received? (nonfiction writers, tho not exactly "receptive" are prolly moreso to this?) I spent a few years professionally as an editor and had the pleasure of working under a really damn good one. When he was done editing a piece it was as if he was never there. I think that is the key: to me, a good editor is basically a translator in some ways; throw in a dash of method actor as well There are cases where this doesn't apply, there are cases where it does; and in all cases it should serve to blur any old ideas of authorship; and may dig up some unsettling "what I said" v. "what I meant" threads (substitute "the text" or "the writing" for "I" if that makes it easier/harder) Of course, this kind of engaging editorialship will just aggravate the afore-mentioned "time problem" all editors are facing as manuscript upon manuscript rolls in, but to me that engagement was always the editorial fun/reward whether the piece be poetry or an op-ed on US arms transfer policies put everything above together and I guess the mark of a good editor shouldn't be seen? but then again I'm not talking about any of the 'herding' or 'gathering' that started the whole post? you want the reverse of good editing: take a look at the fourth harry potter or any other mainstream book that is being rushed to make the spring/fall publishing list... asides: editing stories/urban myths(?): >>Catch-22 was edited for more than two years before publishing. At one point the editor had his assistant type all the books sentences onto little slips of paper and he rearranged the whole deal. >>An editor once suggested a new title for one of Graham Greene's books. His response was a brief note: Easier to change publishers than title. jamie.gp ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 14:32:12 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Re: against new old-fogeyism In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim - I don't think Jacques was saying that the new poetry is all crud. What I think he was saying is that perhaps poems improve with age, and at the same, our contemporary culture find new ways to value crap. I also think jacques was suggesting that tastes are a function of time, which would explain Fagin's grumble. It appears that Fagin has little awareness of his own values in a broader context. That is, his tastes do not reflect an acknowledgement of the indifferent passage of time. Fagin also seems to miss the possibility that maybe his own criteria, over his lifespan, have probably become more stringent, and maybe they were even so stringent that label "good poetry" was restricted to certain pre-approved members. And so, if his criteria become more stringent & time passes, then emerging poets (which are eternal; there's always an emerging poet somewhere) seem crappier and crappier, and fewer and fewer of the members of his pre-approved club are alive. So from his less mindful perspective, poetry gets worse. Perhaps Fagin's comments reflect the painful struggle we all face as we get older, the difficult battle to remember. In fighting this battle we often place the bodies of these old memories in new outfits just to keep them in the room, so-to-speak. the problem is that we end up with memories that are not, well, very accurate. One needs to be aware of his or her own tastes, but one must also be able to see the range of tastes as well, see ones place in that range. And if a person can do that, and imagine new possibilities for tastes, well, then something very interesting can happen. > This is all utter nonsense. What we are witnessing, what > we are enduring, is a new old-fogeyism: a fanatical, nostaligic > golden look back at our art, at all art. These voices tell us, > "Sorry, kids, we had it great and you missed it." > > Bullshit. These voices tell us, "Poetry doesn't mean > what it used to, poets aren't as smart as they used to be, > our magazines were better, our poems were better, our > poets were better. Our weed, our sex, our boys and our > girls--it was non-stop heaven." > > Bullshit. These voices tell us "We had greatness, we had > rythym, we have our Mt. Rushmore of poets, and now > we just need to stop." > > Bullshit. I don't think you had to be a white guy and > go to Harvard in the 1950's to be a poet in this country. Right on! It IS utter nonsense. But have compassion for the old fogeyism, and prepare yourself for the possibility one day you will too dress old memories in new clothes. And keep in mind that the folks at Harvard make things so, whether we like it or not. They even have a "philosopher" on faculty, Robert Nozick, that articulates and espouses this very Harvard "philosophy," namely, that people can be more real by virtue of how well-known they are. Yes, Harvard University "believes" (as only an institution can believe) you are less real than Robert Nozick. The Ivies will always have the market on poetic greatness cornered. (This doesn't mean Harvard is full of crud or anything and all its people are bad; the University does possess an unusual concentration of legitimately intelligent folks and ambitious achievers along with its unusual concentration of landed wealth.) There was some slippage of this notion of Ivy greatness for a brief while in our history, but then America found itself again in Reagan, Springsteen's "Born in the USA," and the Christian Coalition, so now everything is back to the way "it should be" with a clearly inbred descendant of King Henry III in the White House. The Vanderbilts and the Pratts and the Whitneys and the Harrimans and the Bushes and Cliffords and Lovetts and so on can once again use New England institutions to obfuscate the illegitimacy of their wealth, bathing the crimes of their past in part with a pool of similarly romanticized and blind old-timey poetry, ensuring that no one living will get to them or their wealth. They know that just as they stole that wealth so too it can be stolen from them. So they will continue to decide what is real, what is good. The structure of the poetic food chain is safe once again. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, and if you can't join 'em, shout really loudly, shout over these powerful voices, work as hard as twenty people, and keep the effort up for a long long time. That way we'll all be better off. One less credential, twenty times more glory. Last night I heard an "explanation" for Vermeer's "genius": in and around Delft was a great deal of old money and inherited wealth. Of course this view was provided my an effete museum's curator, no doubt either a part of the old money himself, or at least clearly completely subject to it. Elitist views are everywhere, but do not let them get you down. It is nonsense, and it should go without saying. Sadly, however, it does not and so that explains my rambling. By the way, I believe Fagin's a Terrapin, so he's quite un-Harvard I think. But what's scary is that he has this fogey attitude, and yet once upon a recent time he was director of the Naropa Program. Rather unenlightened sounding for a Buddhist. Maybe he was just having a bad day when he gave the interview or maybe the years have not been so kind. Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Jim Behrle > Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 4:45 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: against new old-fogeyism > > > Jeffrey Jullich: > > >We do not need new poetry....The sheer numbers of poets at this point > >threatens to drown out perception of any one. > > Jacques Debrot: > > >What's left, on the one hand, is fashion--which is entirely what > is >being > >invoked by the constant rhetoric on this list >of "new," "emerging," > >"younger," poets, editors, readers, academics, >blah, blah, blah. On the > >other hand, the evasion of and the >resentment against the > demands of taste > >make possible, I admit, an ethically beautiful experience of > community and > >collaboration. The >value of this is at least as great as making "great" > >art, but you >should be aware at least that you're not--you can't be-- > >doing both > >at the same time. The way I've settled it for myself is to stop >writing > >poetry. > > Larry Fagan interview from the Poetry Project Newsletter, Summer 2001: > > >Daniel Kane: Some of you old fogies continue to grouse about current > >poetry. > > >Larry Fagan: And we will until we die. Unless it changes. > > >Daniel Kane: Can you specify your complaints? > > >Larry Fagan: Well, let's see...The obsession with the recent past seems > >shallow at >best. The way poets try to extract the ironic tone of 60s > >poetry--all the faux Frank O'Hara stuff--comes off like lame stand-up > >comedy--lots of name- > >dropping and product placement. And the timing is way off. > > >Daniel Kane: It sounds like you've been attending poetry > readings >lately! > > >Larry Fagan: Some. There's so much playing to the crowd, which > is a >way to > >connect with one another, I guess. Conversely, there's a good >deal of > >fractiousness and paranoia. So, who knows if there's a real > >community to > >speak of? Younger writers don't seem to have that much >in > common, except > > >a desire for self-expression and the fact that they >have to work like > >stevedores to meet their absurdly high overheads. >So they can't be > >serious. And they're no fun. > > >Daniel Kane: Is the nervous tittering you mention really nervousness >or > >in-crowd clubbiness? > > >Larry Fagan: I dunno, maybe it's the anxiety of wanting to belong. >Plus > >ambition, which is silly because there's so little at > stake....In >fact, it > >would be fine with me if everyone were to stop writing for, >say, five > >years. > > Apologies for the long preamble. Pierre's post has given > me opportunity to touch upon Larry's interview and Jeffrey's > attitude: > > This is all utter nonsense. What we are witnessing, what > we are enduring, is a new old-fogeyism: a fanatical, nostaligic > golden look back at our art, at all art. These voices tell us, > "Sorry, kids, we had it great and you missed it." > > Bullshit. These voices tell us, "Poetry doesn't mean > what it used to, poets aren't as smart as they used to be, > our magazines were better, our poems were better, our > poets were better. Our weed, our sex, our boys and our > girls--it was non-stop heaven." > > Bullshit. These voices tell us "We had greatness, we had > rythym, we have our Mt. Rushmore of poets, and now > we just need to stop." > > Bullshit. I don't think you had to be a white guy and > go to Harvard in the 1950's to be a poet in this country. > > Do we need new poetry? Yes. Do we need new poetry > from you? You decide. Curl up with your favorite golden > oldies by the fire and remember how great it was, nobody's > stopping you. The rest of us will be writing. > > Mom and Dad, I'm glad you don't like my music. It's 9:30, > why don't you go to bed now? > > --Jim Behrle > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 14:57:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: m&r ..Ashber(r)y...re...Mu(r)de(r) in Montma(r)te... .... looking back at the 20th cent. bubble culture... .... I.G.C.E...1/1/99...200.00....now 0.84 .... C.M.G.I...1/1/99...160.00....now 2.00 .... the sedge is withered from the lake/ no birds sing .... alone & palely loitering... .... ears wide shut..... DRn.. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 13:40:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jack Ruttan Subject: (Fwd) Anthony Perkins now available... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ------- Forwarded message follows ------- From: "Todd Swift" To: Subject: Anthony Perkins now available... Date sent: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 19:39:31 +0300 Dear (Poetry) Friends and Colleagues, For those of you who are interested, my latest collection of poems, Elegy for Anthony Perkins: poems 1999-2001 (Rattapallax Press, NY), is now available for purchase and download as an E-book, from www.cyberread.com (see below) for the fine price of Five Dollars (US). There's absolutely no obligation to peruse this site, or buy, but I'm pleased that it's now commercially available, and wanted to let you know. The book's in 3 sections, clustered around themes of travel/home; history/violence; sex/love; stardom/disappointment. For fans of Budavox: poems 1990-1999 (DC Books, Montreal) it's a must-see. Enjoy, Todd http://www.cyberread.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=ISBN:1892494426 ------- End of forwarded message ------- http://www.axess.com/users/jackr See the Skinny Nameless Punk at http://www.geocities.com/jack_ruttan/punk3.htm Visit Jack's House of Cats at: http://www.geocities.com/jack_ruttan/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 15:22:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Melvin B. Tolson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I just learned that Greenwood Press has published an edition of Melvin B. Tolson's M.A. Thesis on writers of the Harlem Renaissance. The scholarship on this subject has moved on considerably since Tolson's time, but his was one of the first such studies, and it reveals a great deal of interest to readers of Tolson. It's pricey at $55.00 -- but get your library to buy one! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Subjects hinder talk." --Emily Dickinson Aldon Lynn Nielsen George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature Department of English The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 11:57:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ric Carfagna Subject: the new obscurity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 'Sinfonia Press' announces the release of 'Notes On NonExistence' Parts I & II by Ric Carfagna. I - 'The First Bifurcation', 44 pgs; II - 'Second Segue', 48 pgs. $5 each, both for $8. Ric is the self-proclaimed "hierophant" of 'The New Obscurity' school, participants welcome (inquire within...) Available at : Sinfonia Press P.O. Box 385 Petersham, Ma 01366 Or on-line at: www.sinfoniapress@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 12:03:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daisy Fried Subject: daisy & jim @ the fringe Comments: To: elotozo@phillynews.com, apackar1@swarthmore.edu, Ayperry@aol.com, cridgway@haverford.edu, cromano@phillynews.com, dovide@haverford.edu, dpafunda@yahoo.com, eroland@haverford.edu, josman@astro.ocis.temple.edu, jransom@haverford.edu, kouten@voicenet.com, mcragas@phillymag.com, mollyrussakoff@earthlink.net, NPollack@aol.com, ostriker@niflheim.rutgers.edu, owner-realpoetik@scn.org, perelman@dept.english.upenn.edu, Qredgymbeaux@cs.com, rattapallax@yahoo.com, riggsda@drexel.edu, rrys@phillymag.com, shehaw@hotmail.com, singinghorse@erols.com, whpoets@english.upenn.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Philadelphia Fringe Festival Presents GUTS A Poetry Reading by Daisy Fried MEN IN LOVE A Comic Prose/Poem/Play of Wildwood, NJ by Jim Quinn (with Melissa Backes, Daisy Fried, Rich Kaufmann, Don Riggs**, Amy Smith) Sunday, Sept. 2 @ 5 p.m Friday, Sept. 7 @6:30 p.m. Gallery Fringe 213-215 New St. (betw. 2nd & 3rd Sts. just north of the Ben Franklin Bridge) $5.00* *tickets available at National Showroom 113-131 N. 2nd St., 215.413.1318, www.pafringe.org, or at the door **Also catch Don Riggs and Lynn Levin’s fringe poetry show, Sun. 9/9 at 6:30 p.m. and Wed. 9/12 at 9:30 p.m., same venue and price as ours. --- Daisy Fried’s first book of poems, She Didn’t Mean To Do It, won the Agnes Lynch Starrett Prize in poetry and was published by U. of Pittsburgh Press last December. She received a Leeway Award for Excellence in poetry in 2001 and a Pew Fellowship in Poetry in 1998. Her poems have been published in Ploughshares, Indiana Review, Antioch Review and many others; new poems are forthcoming in Threepenny Review and American Poetry Review. Her journalism has been published in Glamour, Philadelphia Magazine, Newsday and most of Philly’s major newsprint media. She teaches creative writing at Haverford College and lives in South Philadelphia. "Fried knows her people, their nerves, their moves, their languages. She is right there. She celebrates and sings them."--Alicia Ostriker "Her eye is brave, her language is omnivorous, her heart is bountifully chambered."--Albert Goldbarth --- Jim Quinn’s poems and stories have been published in Beloit Poetry Journal, Poet Lore, Other Voices, American Poetry Review Philly Edition, Northeast Corridor, etc. He was semi-finalist for the ’00 and ‘01 Sandstone Prize in fiction and the 1999 “Discovery”/The Nation Poetry Prize, and won the prize for best fiction in Temple U’s graduate creative writing program in ‘00. His journalism has been published in NY Times Sunday Magazine, Washington Post, Newsweek, Harper’s, Esquire, Rolling Stone, Village Voice, Town & Country, Food & Wine, The Nation, & many others. The author of four books on politics, language & food, he writes the “Quinn on Food” column for Philadelphia magazine and lives in South Philly. "Jim Quinn is the Professor Moriarty of Language"--William Safire. "Tell Jim Quinn I think he's the cat's pajamas."--August Kleinzahler -- (Please note: if you receive more than one of these notices, it’s not because I’m spamming you: it’s because you subscribe to one or more of several lists I send events-notices to, or to lists within lists those lists themselves subscribe to. I sincerely apologize, but there’s nothing I can think of to do about it.) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 17:13:20 -0400 Reply-To: BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: Anthologies/Michael Waters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit snip to: > Um, I don't really think emailing Michael Waters to voice one's > displeasure with the 7th edition of Contemporary American Poetry is > very helpful. (J. Gallaher) Unless he doesn't realize what a moron he is. In which case, alerting him to the fact might get him to investigate contemporary American poetry, and do a better job if he ever gets to edit another anthology. snip #2 to: > I still find the Norton Post > Modern anthology that Hoover edited to be the best for my uses. snip > I think we should all go out and spend our big tax refund checks on > anthologies like the Norton. Alas, the problem with this is that the Hoover anthology is to some of us what the Michael Waters anthology is to Jim Behrle. Alas #2, there still isn't an anthology out worth spending a dime on for those interested in what of significance has been happening in poetry since 1980 or so. --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 17:38:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Re: Why I was a bad poet (was: greatness; editors, editing, etc.) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Patrick Herron: >I do see piles and piles of shit everywhere. It's rare to find a >Really >Good Poem in all of the journals that go around, and so many >collections >of poetry seem to be very lazily and unambitiously >produced. It does seem >much of what I find is all affect, black >leather jackets and cool >shoes,cigarette smoke and Campari floating >between freshly painted walls, >the dream of a close-up photo of the >author's face on the cover of "Poets >& Writers," but that's not >everything. Uninspired poetry written by poets >in search of content, >sure, everywhere. Poems with inspiration and >content craft and beauty >is rare indeed, if not impossible. That should >not be so surprising, >however. But I have been surprised that as I have >worked harder >to find inspired poetry, poetry without regard for 'the correct or the >latest theoretical trappings." I have begun to find it. It's around. To me this is more of the same old-fogeyism, like bad poetry is something this generation of young poets invented. Jacques--sorry for calling you Pierre. --Jim _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 10:14:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kiwi Comments: To: Russell Bramlett , Gregg Miller MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Friends, Please check out http: raintaxi.com, their "online" review for an = wonderful new review of the=20 Green Integer publication The Twofold Vibration by Raymond Federman. We thought you might like to see a listing of the currently titles = available from Green Integer. All the books listed below have been published. We will = update as new books appear. 1 Gertrude Stein History, of Messages from History $9.95 2 Robert Bresson Notes on the Cinematographer $8.95 a new printing will be available in September 2001 3 Oscar Wilde The Critic as Artist $10.95 4 Henri Michaux Tent Posts $10.95 5 Edgar Allan Poe Eureka: A Prose Poem $10.95 6 Jean Renoir An Interview $9.95 7 Marcel Cohen Mirrors $12.95 8 Christopher Spranger The Effort to Fall $8.95 9 Arno Schmidt Radio Dialogs $12.95 10 Hans Christian Andersen Travels $121.95 11 Christopher Middleton In the MIrror of the Eighth King $9.95 12 James Joyce On Ibsen $8.95 13 Knut Hamsun A Wanderer Plays on Muted Strings $10.95 14 Henri Bergson Laughter: A Essay on the Meaning of the Comic $11.95 15 Michel Leiris Operratics $10.95 16 Sergei Paradjanov Seven Visions $12.95 17 Herv=E9 Guibert Ghost Image $1095 18 Luis-Ferdinand C=E9line Ballets without Music, without Dancers, = without Anything $10.95 19 Gellu Naum My Tired Father $8.95 20 Vicente Huidobro Manifestos Manifest $12.95 21 G=E9rard de Nerval Aurelia $11.95 22 Knut Hamsun On Overgrown Paths $12.95 23 Martha Ronk Displeasures of the Table $9.95 24 Mark Twain What Is Man? $10.95 25 Antonio Porta Metropolis $10.95 26 Sappho Poems $10.95 27 Alexei Kruchenykh Suicide Circus: Selected Poems $12.95 28 Jos=E9 Donoso Hell Has No Limits $10.95 29 Gertrude Stein To Do: A Book of Alphabets and Birthdays $9.95 30 Joshua Haigh [Douglas Messerli] Letters from Hanusse $12.95 31 Federico Garcia Lorca Suites $12.95 32 Tereza Albues Pedra Canga $12.95 33 Rae Armantrout The Pretext $9.95 34 Nick Piombino Theoretical Objects $10.95 36 Olivier Cadiot Art Poetic' $12.95 37 Andr=E9e Chedid Fugitive Suns: Selected Poetry $11.95 38 Hsi Muren Across the Darkness of the River $9.95 42 Gertrude Stein Mexico: A Play $595 44 R=E9gis Bonvicino Sky-Eclipse: Selected Poems $9.95 45 Raymond Federman The Twofold Vibration $11.95 54 Djuna Barnes The Antiphon $11.95 59 OyamO The Resurrection of Lady Lester $8.95 65 Paul Snoek Hercules, Richelieu, Nostradamus $10.95 68 Maria Irene Fornes Abingdon Square $9.95 70 Luis Gonzalez-Cruz and Ann Wagoner Aken, ed. Three Masterpieces of = Cuban Theater: Plays by Julio Matis, Carlos Felipe, and Virgilio Pinera = $12.95 73 Vitezslav Nezval Antilyrik and Other Poems $10.95 74 Sam Eisenstein Rectification of Eros $10.95 79 Dominic Cheung Drifting $9.95 80 Gilbert Sorrentino Gold Fools $14.95 101 Jiao Tung Erotic Recipes $8.95 103 Chen I-chih The Mysterious Hualien $9.95 Green Integer/EL-E-PHANT [books in larger format] EL-1 Douglas Messerli, ed. The PIP Anthology of World Poetry of the = 20th Century, volume 1 $15.95 EL-51 Larry Eigner readiness/enough/depends/on $12.95 EL-52 Martin Nakell Two Fields that Face and Mirror Each Other $16.95 EL-53 Arno Schmidt The School for Atheists: A Novella=3DComedy in 6 Acts = $16.95 Please send your orders to Green Integer, making out checks to Douglas = Messerli. For single volumes, include price and $1.25 for postage. For two volumes or more, please = take a 20% discount on each title and include $1.00 postage for each book. Send checks with your name and = address to Green Integer: 6026 Wilshire Blvd., Los Angeles, CA 90036 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:25:18 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Wystan Curnow (FOA ENG)" Subject: Re: Why I was a bad poet (was: greatness; editors, editing, etc.) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" dear jacques, trouble is giving up poetry is an old avant-garde move. so my question would be, what are you doing instead? I presume writing of some kind, or are you going to a nunnery? Isn't Polke a better reference point than you are allowing; his badness has proved extraordinarily rich, not forms of something less, but of something more. Are you (we) tangled up in genealogy? The 'poetry is finished' argument is common enough, it comes from defenders of conventional poetry offended by avant-garde poetry, so entirely beside the point of yours. In the art world it produced some pieces I still find useful--de Duve's Who's Afraid of Red, Yellow, Blue? notably--about how to be avant-garde without being avant-garde, and about the impossibility of post-modernity. wystan -----Original Message----- From: Jacques Debrot [mailto:JDEBROT@AOL.COM] Sent: Thursday, 23 August 2001 4:28 a.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Why I was a bad poet (was: greatness; editors, editing, etc.) At one time I had the stupid idea that it would be possible to write poems persuasively in an impoverished idiom which--even though it was deliberately crude, trivial, ironically effortless, etc.--would possess a badness that would be somehow analogous to the sophisticated, expressive badness of paintings by visual artists like Sigmar Polke and Picabia--an aesthetic that, by the way, is almost a cliche in the art world. Now there are a lot of reasons why, as I say, I was being stupid. But fundamentally it was a redundant idea. My biggest mistake was not to see that alternative, av-garde--whatever-you want-to-call-it--poetry is already (by definition) bad. I don't mean this in a pejorative sense necessarily, but it should be obvious that strategems of subversion (or fashion) are always immediately launched by calculated outrages against conventional taste. Everybody today, as Ashbery insists somewhere, is avant-garde. There are New Formalists, of course, and neo-Confessionalists, and so on, but no one takes their own heirarchies of taste for granted anymore, or views these as self-evident or natural (though the degree to which taste is seen to be subjective or objective varies of course along a wide continuum). Get rid of all of the fetishes, dogmas--the excrescences that accumulate around art--and describe the nature of poetry *qua* poetry. Ok--Indefinability--indescribability, even--are paradoxically givens. But it's the very experience of a poem--its affect (indescribable or not)--considered as an end in itself--that is poetry's ultimate value: not cognition, as C. Greenerg writes, but cognitiveness. I'm not expressing this very well; this is just a post to a listserv--no one will get thru the whole thing and, still, I'm only telegraphing my point. But I'm trying i suppose to set up an opposition: that is, while poetry qua poetry resolves, as I said, essentially around the experience of poetry as an end in itself (an experience which is reflexively judgemental: i.e. "this (poem) is worth my attention or not"-- and so dependent on judgements of taste), at the same time the heirarchies of taste have been effectively undermined (for all poets, exp or not) by the av-garde. What have been the strategies of this subversion? My second big mistake, you see, was to take for granted that experimental poetry outrages taste by the renunciations it makes. Its innovations are always a form of something less: less narrative, less syntax, less beauty, less structure, less metaphor, etc., etc. But there comes a point, you know, when saying that you like "bad" poetry, or that you want poetry to share the condition of dirt (as Nate Dorward, I think, recently said to me), or that boring is better, or that the politics, not the quality of a poem, are what's essential--there comes a point when these kinds of things become only a form of bullshitting oneself. **Without taste, there's no such thing as poetry.** Mike and Kasey, I get and follow yr point, but the whole problem w/ contemporary poetry is the evasion of the highest expectations and the heaviest pressures of taste. **Even if the "best" can never be adequately or universally determined for everybody (of course not), you still have to constantly ask this of _yourself_. That is, you either take responsibility for your own taste, or you don't. Which is exactly the opposite of submitting to received ideas. But this is precisely the pressure --the capacity to bear down --that poets and poetry can't seem to stand up to anymore--av-garde or otherwise. There are many talented and brilliant poets--and there are many poems to like--- but the medium they've inherited--as well as the social position of poetry's invisiblity-- is too impoverished to accomplish anything that's not minor. **(I mean it's important to realize that even the so-called conventional poetries have systematically stripped themselves of the genre's traditional resources.)** For alt poetries, the most successful recourse (in certain precincts of the academy) has been a kind of exquisitist writing--Palmer, Guest, Lauterbach, Cole Swenson, Peter Gizzi, and so on--comparable in a way to the turn in the editorial direction that Sun & Moon eventually made. It's often brilliant stuff, but it also manages to be both anemic and somehow too rich. You'll starve on a steady diet, but throw it against the wall and it will stick. What's left, on the one hand, is fashion--which is entirely what is being invoked by the constant rhetoric on this list of "new," "emerging," "younger," poets, editors, readers, academics, blah, blah, blah. On the other hand, the evasion of and the resentment against the demands of taste make possible, I admit, an ethically beautiful experience of community and collaboration. The value of this is at least as great as making "great" art, but you should be aware at least that you're not--you can't be-- doing both at the same time. The way I've settled it for myself is to stop writing poetry. In a way, the academy--the theoretical wing-- left the LangPos way behind. As Perloff suggested a while back, the aesthetic does not have any special value for cultural theorists. What wss impt about LP were the manifestos (irrespective really of whether they were right or wrong); the LPs never were in any theoretical position to promote the poetry *as* poetry, though of course this is what they can't help doing. The impasse is symptomatic of the evasion of taste. Bill Luoma's _My Trip to New York City_ is really the bad book that I wanted to write. Unintentionally, perhaps, he exposes the way that poetry is made now: as a matter of fashion and community--cliquish, humane, competitive (but unambitious). And dumb. And bad, most of all. --Jacques ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 16:16:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: Re: edit, editors, editing [MARCELLA DURAND/FENCE HOUSING WORKS LITERARY MAG. BENEFIT] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marcella: 1. To say that I admire and appreciate your stance on ~everything.~ You seem like one of the most consistent perspectives I hear of these days. I'm glad you can still use the word "capitalist" (as glad Yiddish survives). 2. I was likewise impressed by your "performance" on Fence's Housing Works Literary Magazine Benefit panel, several months ago. (Thanks, Fence.) Standing your ground against the likes of George Plimpton and that other Tin House (sp?) editor was a much-needed foil. I took notes at that session. The transcripts are below (defective, unable to read my own handwriting at points, and I think they may be in reverse chronological order). P.S. Marcella Durand wrote: >>> (i.e., Here kids, here's the oldest texts I found still in print! Assyrian-Babylonian stone tablets listing olive oil sales! Pop quiz at the end of class!) <<< I spent a few years studying cuneiform and working on a paleoeconomics research project measuring the price fluctuations in six Assyrian commodities over a 600 year span (barley, cress, dates, . . .). It's very savvy of you to betray that you know clay tablets were indeed principally a record of sales--- but olive ~oil~ is an invoice I do not recall ever seeing. >>||||<<<^^ {cuneiform emoticon for Happy Face} Armand Schwerner's THE TABLETS are remarkably truthful in conveying what it's like to struggle with reading cuneiform. (And Sumerian tablets are older than Assyrian/Akkadian-Babylonian.) ----------------------------------- Dramatis personae: IRA SILVERBERG (CLMP --- Council of Literary Magazine P) GEORGE PLIMPTON - 1953 - Paris Review Amber? Dorkerstopper? NIGHT RALLY (founder of the first MENSA chapter of Tarot Readers!) MOSAIC published (Af. Am.) & put on bookshelves but not marketed - ~publicity~ - now going for lesser known PLIMPTON: --- A quarterly can't deal with issues as well as a weekly --- ["isms"] --- SPILLMAN: {illegible} ?wet to higher first -- did test MARCELLA DURAND ----------------------- Q.: Howe difficult is it to make a living --- [?work] rest of the time --- How oftren do you see something you can edit to use? SPILLMAN: Giant gulf between GOOD and BAD ---- if there's a MOSAIC: Don't have stuff--- PLIMPTO: we have an A slip and a B slip (rejections) --- to encourage with "borderline" cases {sic} --- You can tell awfully [fast?] Q.: Flow from old school to new school --- on-line --- merger/conflict between trade & on-line--- PLIMPT: Paris Review has gone on-line to promote, not to distribute--- Interviews are on-line --- snippets of poetry to entice subscriptions --- Next week: Supreme Court rights Q.: People who begin on-line? making trans. PLIMP: assuming that the web is a lower form of printing MOSAIC: if you decide you can't publish ??strengthening?? what Random House MARCELLA: *ALL* political --- constantly suvbert --- why you want to publish SPILLMA: not overt --- Trojan Horse --- wld. love to be more like '60s: Evergreen Review MOSAIC: final statement abt. ?absuing yr. employee(s?) --- used to have work # CLMP: final Q. "The Market"? In Chicago panel on distribution --- ?Ingrams --- largest distributor ---1 40,000 units of mag --- 60% Reader's Digest Granta, Poetry, Tinhouse {something about a pie chart here} If it's possible to get out there, do you want to? Is mass distrib. something to aspire to? MENSA GENIUS TAROT READER: --- don't have the first idea how to make it happen --- wld.never stop anybody PLIM: tried to increase circ. by having Random House do it --- worst decision they ever took --- MARCELLA: --- she works for mag w/ circul. 150,000 --- cats magazine! Specific community --- innovation poetry --- NY, Lang., Beat ?across from US --- a certainmode of writing not accepted by mass distributed in big outlets --- Staying small keeps you accessible --- You don't receive 500,000 --- CLMP: name? MARCELLA: (1) ANGLE --- was not accepted by SDP --- 8 1/2 x 11 --- Stroffolino, Violei --- ?ed. onto glossier?; (2) COMBO; (3) INTERLOPE? Asian-Am.; (4) TINFISH, each hand-made; (5) CLAMOR, queer women of color --- amazing people doing in their homes SPILLMAN: --- mood to '86: disappointed by NY scene --- went to Cedar Tavern --- everybody gravitating to NY to write & publ. is out --- purposely picked eds. elsewhere --- cross-cultural --- like to feel writers aree part of a community in mag. but it's tenuous at best CLMP: is there an inherent politic? PLI: you can't tell from content that Vietnam War was going on --- not politically oriented whatsoever MENSA: ---no--- MOSAIC.: --- isn't overtly political --- almost by default you're making a statement abt. capitalism, & what's left by the ?roalfide read Paris Review --- not just among the converted --- but ?Boise --- going to buy heavy metal mag. PL: agrees w/ Rob you have to get it to people --- otherwise it's VANITY publishing --- ?pinced --- into hands of people --- if you don't do that, you're running in circles --- Rob was thinking of reader --- gave wrong impression before w/ one reader {story about having only once seen someone reading Paris Review: Hemingway in the Paris Ritz! :{ } CLMP: reader vs. writer --- Rob ?yng you read --- me Evergreen --- community --- even if you have a small aud., you're part of a bigger world ---w hat community? MOSAIC.: --- his community rather ?defined by race --- no longer trying to reach everyone in that group --- MENSA (her journal: ?NIGHT RALLY): --- don't have an aud. that defined --- earlier decision/belief --- sent out flyer to opera companies --- wanted ~non-writer~ opera & museum docents P: --- mag. often defined by poetry editors --- Tom Clark published NY School --- felt so bad for bad poetry --- published mysterious issue for bad --- Donald Hall disapproved of Ginsberg & now regrets it --- ?MOSAIC: ---- ?for as on writer as personality CLMP: each of you has tried to fill a void --- if there are so many voids --- the reader? --- who's out there to get the message PL: --- one of the dismaying things --- have only seen one man in his entire life --- Hotel Ritz ---Ernest Hemingway --- circ. of 4 fig. or even 2 figs. --- why all this time doing it? 20,000 MS a yr. --- every once in a while you get something that makes you jump out of your chair --- a void in your own perception of what --- on-line --- many more subscriptions--- MENSA: --- only 500 --- everone signs their letters "Love,"--- w/ more $ wld. she pay more --- No --- she'd get prettier end-paper --- What Marcella sd. about saddle stapler so beautiful she'll think about it all the way home on the bus {!!!} MARCELLA: --- don't worry abt. a reader - but the writer - it's imp. that if someone's written - not worry abt. pleasing this faceless aud. - this special art of stapling some things together - maybe put some art w/ it SPILLMAN: --- diff. angle - first thing was to hire designer - strategy of getting a wide readership - distribution - by being well designed - picked up by Barnes & Noble and ?Binders w/ first issue - did not want itto be for poet-writers - for broader humanity - Baltimore {where he came from?} was end of the earth - John Waters TIN HOUSE: - others are like mediocree that you had to swallow ugly but good for you - TH add humor added at non-writer creative people (nuc. physicists) - half of staff is in Portland - ~a great BS screen??~ on-line - ?split MARCELLA: - Tiny Press - tiny - no ISBN - 1-5 issues handmade - non-urban how-to-use saddle stapler - so that people who are isolated double change? {charge?} internat.. Poetry is tightly ?confined - what's coming into the country community vs. commodity ----------------------------------- {Please note: I have nothing against George Plimpton, personally. Many years ago, when I did an interview with James Schuyler, Geoffrey Young of The Figures Press told me that Plimpton and the Paris Review had been trying to get an interview with Schuyler for years,--- but unsuccessfully. So, I looked up Plimpton's telephone number in Manhattan White Pages and phoned him. He was home and picked up the phone. I also had an 11-page partial transcript of an interview with Harry Mathews. Plimpton said he would enjoying reading both. Sent him them. Later, proper etiquette of handwritten thank you follow-up on Paris Review stationery, I guess. --- It's just that he and Tin House becomes so dialectically opposed to Marcella and the MENSA genius, that their mercantile values appeared all the more caricaturish in contrast to Durand/MENSA Tarot Reader's altruistic authenticity.} -------------------------------------------------------------- Marcella Durand wrote > Hi Aaron, > > The question for me is not so much whether temporal durability is a > legitimate measure (or "principle" is the word you use--almost like using > the "test of time" as a definition of good art is a moral stance) of good > poetry, but why poets (and, therefore, supposedly, "active" readers) would > want to use it as such? It seems like the most extremely dull (as well as > unreliable) way to gauge good poetry, only to be used if you're stuck at the > very last moment for something to teach your students (i.e., Here kids, > here's the oldest texts I found still in print! Assyrian-Babylonian stone > tablets listing olive oil sales! Pop quiz at the end of class!). > > I mean, what is the "test of time" anyhow? Some sort of mathematical model > of greatest popularity (and do we mean popular with critics? The masses?) > plus durability of physical materials over longest length of time? X times Y > equals = Great Art that Has Meaning & Significance for Many (European? > American?) Generations? > > best, > M (Letting her assessment of a principle be overwhelmed with questions) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 17:11:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Subject: September events at Small Press Traffic, SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit September 2001 -- Back to School with Small Press Traffic! Friday, September 7, 2001 6 p.m. : Reception celebrating our Archive 7:30 p.m.: Mei-Mei Berssenbrugge & Chris Tysh Welcome to fall 2001 at Small Press Traffic! We begin tonight with a gala evening. At 6 we host a reception celebrating our Archive’s new home at Simpson Library, CCAC. At 7:30, a reading by luminous poets Mei-Mei Berssenbrugge & Chris Tysh. Mei-Mei Berssenbrugge was born in Beijing and grew up in Massachusetts. Her books include The Heat Bird (Burning Deck, winner of an American Book Award), Empathy (Station Hill), and Four Year Old Girl (Kelsey Street). Her collaborations include artists books with Richard Tuttle and Kiki Smith, and theatre works with Frank Chin, Blondell Cummings, Tan Dun, Shi Zhen Chen and Alvin Lucier. She has been a contributing editor of Conjunctions magazine since 1978, and has taught at Brown University and the Institute of American Indian Arts. Once an associate of Georgia O'Keefe, she is active in both Native and Asian American cultural movements, and recently read at the UN. Chris Tysh is currently working on a film script based on the works of Bataille; her new book is Continuity Girl. Previous works include Porne, Secrets of Elegance, and Coat of Arms, the last of which includes prose poems investigating the semi-ancient arts of heraldry and femininity. Lyn Hejinian says of Coat of Arms: “The very fact that we call heraldic symbols ‘devices’ makes them vulnerable to another realm -- the poetic -- where prerogatives can be rethought and ultimately dispersed. Tysh's writing doesn’t say we shouldn't be somewhere, but it acts out a being there in a different (gorgeous and unpunishing) way.” Friday, September 14, 2001 at 7:30 p.m. David Larsen & Fred Moten Two investigators of geography and language will read no doubt with surprises. Oakland resident David Larsen is a performer, artist, scholar, and poet -- a mover, shaker and maker the Bay Area is lucky to call its own. His poetry has appeared in Cello Entry, Mirage #4/Period(ical), Explosive, and other magazines, as well as the chapbooks To The Fremont Station, Sepia #1-7, and Swath. He presented “Scarcely Otherwise: Kevin Killian’s Pulp Mimesis” at the Queer/Popular/Culture conference in Santa Cruz last March. With Beth Murray he edited the much-missed San Jose Manual of Style. His artworks have graced many small press books and journals, and new cartoon work is due out in Chain. Fred Moten is the author of Arkansas (Pressed Wafer, 2000), a collection of poems which Michael Palmer says: “reminds us that no vital sense of community can be separated from its confusions and contentions and its ardent affirmations, just as no poetry of worth can settle for the easy assuagements of the given. It reminds us as well that in poetry the orial and the textural interweave to create a new language, a personal grammar illuminating the actual.” Originally from Las Vegas and Arkansas, Moten currently lives in NYC where he teaches in the Department of Performance Studies at the Tisch School of the Arts, NYU. His next book, Ensemble & Improvisation: The Political Erotics of the Black Avant-Garde , is due out from the University of Minnesota Press. Both of these writers have unlocked secrets of the Bay Area with their linguistics and lingos; we natives are always glad to see BART, Latrell Sprewell and Chez Panisse mentioned in poems! We are eager to see what they each surprise us with next! Just added -- Sunday, September 23, 2001 at Diesel Books in Oakland. SPT cosponsors a release party for the new magazine nocturne, edited by giovanni singleton. Friday, September 28, 2001 at 7:30 p.m. Crosstown Traffic The season opener of our multimedia series, featuring text, music, and visual art -- sure to be a gala event and to get you set for more multimedia explorations throughout the year. Artist David Huffman , a Berkeley native and CCAC MFA grad, will present and discuss his work, and the musical group Positive Knowledge will perform. Huffman had a solo exhibition at Patricia Sweetow Gallery last year and his work has appeared in group shows at the Studio Museum in Harlem, the Hokkaido Museum in Japan, and San Francisco’s own Yerba Buena Center. Positive Knowledge is Oluyemi Thomas, reed instruments, and Ijeoma Thomas, poetic vocals, plus special guests. Their CDs include Invocation #9, recorded at Yoshi’s, and last year's At the Center of the Threshold, the recording debut of their East Coast incarnation. Crosstown Traffic is curated by the writers and SPT board members Taylor Brady and Yedda Morrison. ------- All events are $5-10, sliding scale, and begin at 7:30, unless otherwise noted. Our events are free to SPT members, and CCAC faculty, staff, and students. Unless otherwise noted, our events are presented in Timken Lecture Hall California College of Arts and Crafts 1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin) Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson, Executive Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCAC 1111 Eighth Street San Francisco, California 94107 415/551-9278 http://www.sptraffic.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 20:47:54 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Re: Why I was a bad poet (was: greatness; editors, editing, etc.) Comments: To: Jim Behrle In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim - Please note, Jim, I never say, "ours is the worst age." In fact I never implied anything near your interpretation of my statement. I believe that it is likely every age has been as bad as the last. Darkness sinks eternal. I might be an old fogey, but certainly not because of what you imagine I wrote. One may be able to find bad poetry from any age, or poor art from any age. Good poetry is all around us today. *Wondrous,* *marvelous,* "blow your head off" poetry is a rare event and *always* has been. I do reserve the right to make judgments about my own inclinations. I do not love every piece of poetry I read, and I'm sure that you don't either. Much of what I find is not very good. (You should come to a poetry reading in Chapel Hill, NC, and then you would really understand what I'm talking about.) ;^) As I've said, as I've worked harder to find inspired contemporary poetry, I've found it. It exists. It's right there in my quote that you snipped. I hardly agree with Fagin. Best, Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Jim Behrle > Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 5:38 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Why I was a bad poet (was: greatness; editors, editing, > etc.) > > > Patrick Herron: > > >I do see piles and piles of shit everywhere. It's rare to find a >Really > >Good Poem in all of the journals that go around, and so many >collections > >of poetry seem to be very lazily and unambitiously >produced. > It does seem > >much of what I find is all affect, black >leather jackets and cool > >shoes,cigarette smoke and Campari floating >between freshly > painted walls, > >the dream of a close-up photo of the >author's face on the cover > of "Poets > >& Writers," but that's not >everything. Uninspired poetry > written by poets > >in search of content, >sure, everywhere. Poems with inspiration and > >content craft and beauty >is rare indeed, if not impossible. That should > >not be so surprising, >however. But I have been surprised that as I have > >worked harder > >to find inspired poetry, poetry without regard for 'the correct or the > >latest theoretical trappings." I have begun to find it. It's around. > > To me this is more of the same old-fogeyism, > like bad poetry is something this generation > of young poets invented. > > Jacques--sorry for calling you Pierre. > > --Jim > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 00:00:35 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: Re: Why I was a bad poet (was: greatness; editors, editing, etc.) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey Jim, Wystan, Jim--it's humiliating to be called Pierre after we've been out drinking 1/2 a dozen times together & you've published me in _canihaveyr_. . . . But I do tend to be socially recessive, so I think I can understand. Anyway here's what I think about yr posts. Fagin's poetry, to my mind, isn't any better than the best poetry being written right now--often by people in their 20s (though a lot of the time I don't know how old the poets are who write the poems I like). In fact, I almost always find tons of things to enjoy in the poetry zines I pick up. What Fagin--& what the other poets of his generation--are expressing, I think, is the feeling that they've been passed over w/out having been given their shot. Do they deserve that? For me--make up yr own mind--there's a drop-off immediately after the 1st gen NY School. & it tracks closely w/ the decline in the cultural status of poetry. But that doesn't start in the 1960s--as Perloff said someplace recently (& I agree w/ her), O'Hara ain't no T.S. Eliot. So as to which gen of epigones is superior--yrs or Fagin's--who knows? Apart from the my vs. yr generational tenor of his comments I think that he's pretty sharp about the derivativeness of the kinds of things you'll see in the NYC zines. Ok--so if I say you should aspire to write as well as Stevens & Eliot--or let's get even more ridiculous--Shakespeare, Milton, Keats, Dante, etc.--how could you do it? YOU CAN'T. The instrument's broken. Why should artistic genres have an infinite lifespan? When Fagin says that the payoff for writing poetry is inconsequential, I tend to believe him. Jim, do you think that by yr generational logic yr poetry is going to get the shot at some wider attention than his got? I think it's maybe better to think for oneself than to think for one's generation (an impossibe burden). That's how to begin at least to talk honestly to oneself about art--something tremendously difficult to do. Wystan, Polke is for me still a terrific & inspiring artist--my problem was that i made too easy analogies across generic boundaries. Greenberg thru de Duve is as you know an interest of mine. & my end of poetry rants track w/ danto's end of art screeds to some extent. Maybe we can flesh this out sometime if it interests you. --jacques ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 07:22:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: m&r...mother lode he's eating a toasted corn muffin with butter...5:30 pre-lite flee...your basic deli/bodega now run by muslims...i've seen him every/where.. 135 and Mad..37 & Lex..Thompson St..east-side west-side all 'round from Sputen Dyvil to the Battery... afro-A gentleman of an indeterminate age...neat..gay...ascot...thin...cheerful..slow low southern voice...he scouts jewelry...methodical...relentless...often tells me about sales..not interested in books...i can hear the slow mantra chur in his mind..Tiffany..Tiffany...Tiff i move my eggs over to his table because he knew Gene Shaw...of the faboulous Shaw Afro-A collection..& i want some more info..he tells me Shaw was always broke...and hit em up for a few bucks..Shaw sold junk...kept all...& then his gaze warps ..you 'member' the Collyer Bros.. in 1947...the police entered the 3 story brownstone house of Homer&Langley Collyer...128th & Fifth in Harlem....they found Homer dead...prob. of starvation..& 136 tons of junk...including 14 GRAND PIANOS...each one sounds different...an embedded nest of clotted suffocating cultural debris... the one brother had a stroke and went blind.. some 2o years before..Langley took care of him....and as the nabe deteriorated over the years...went out only at nite...to forage and horde and store and watch over and worry about and mass up...against time...the x tons of old newspapers were for the blind bro...should he miraculously regain his site..he could catch up on the news.. honey-combed passages...secret tansits in...robbers in the nite..secreted fabulous wealth..booby-traps.... the police hacked thru this jungle of culture...week after week...almost 3 weeks later they found Langley 10 ft from his bro...the rat gnawing on some foot.. there were crowds..all up and down til 125th...they put it on the T.V...the mob wanting at it like they wanted the Czar's winter palace...the pile of treasure built up lest the day.. bisque doll...life-size...life-like...it looked like a real baby..it came out of that house...he somehow found and sold it..& an elaborate old etui.. he's mumbling like someone descriping a landscape he can't quite see...and the words are mist..clutter is the basis of culture...blood thickens..the Collyer Bros. are my heroes...the mob breaks down the doors the walls to find the treasure they can not imagine...DRn... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 17:40:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Re: Why I was a bad poet (was: greatness; editors, editing, etc.) In-Reply-To: <91.f298ffb.28b53798@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 12:28 PM -0400 8/22/01, Jacques Debrot wrote: >What have been the strategies of this subversion? My second big mistake, you >see, was to take for granted that experimental poetry outrages taste by the >renunciations it makes. Its innovations are always a form of something less: > less narrative, less syntax, less beauty, less structure, less metaphor, >etc., etc. Jacques, I think that many interesting writing projects have been born of excess--like Bataille, who, I believe Rosemarie Waldrop brought up this past year on the list. Thank you, Rosemarie. Excess is very important in much female writing as a transgressive strategy, such as Kathy Acker. It seems to me that your astute analysis isn't of all avant-garde writing, but of writing that has no political or personal urgency. To me, it sounds like this "exquisitist" writing is the writing of the bored. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 13:20:20 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "][mez][" Subject: Viro.Logic Condition 1.1 Comments: To: list@rhizome.org, syndicate@eg-r.isp-eg.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" _Viro.Logic Condition][ing][ 1.1_ [b:g:in] ::Art.hro][botic][scopic N.][in][ten][dos][tions:: 1.[b.ranch outwards||seething jam-jar curs][ed][ored drenching s][creening][ounds] ::Neol][o.jism][ithic Rever][b][s.al][l][s:: 2.[drink sever][al][ed c u in he][l][avan a c][yclops][hair b:cumming sane] ::Gig:a][h!][:cycling:: 3.[alert & c.rash.ing chrysa][s][li][ding!][s//via code syrup & brooding symbols] ______________________________________________ ---------------------------------------------- .The Viro.logic Condition s][ir][ear.c][am][hes the named N.pu.t][rojan.logic][ strains [or physical N.put if no strands r nominated] 4 possible contaminants. .By de:fault][lines][ the Condition s.pr][int][eads thru matching bi][r][o][bo][.logic links. + .There r 3 major cycles of Viro.logic con.troll.ed by the following reactions. + -M, --baseline-re:ge][xp][nerative. .Internet p][atterned][roduced as a wr][h][y.zomic x.pression. .This is this e.ternal range. -E, --x.tended-rege][xp][nerative. .Interphysical person as an x.tendable geophysical x.pression. -Z, --fixed-stra][i][nds .Inter.twin.ing of previous patterns as links of fixed strands, stitched via newbies. ----------------------------------------------______________________________ ________________ the [-viro] [-logic] [-e condition | -f STRAND] [-d ACTION] [--searches=ACTION] [--x.tended- reg][exp.eriential][] [--fixed-strands] ______________________________________________ ---------------------------------------------- [...the named input + technologic strains + physical input if no strands are nominated + possible contaminants = by default the condition spreads through machining biologic/robologic links...] [e:n:d] . . .... ..... net.wurker][M.ollient][ pro.ject.ile x.blooms.x .go.here. xXXx ./. www.hotkey.net.au/~netwurker .... . .??? ....... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 10:45:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Coach Debrot In-Reply-To: <128.385746d.28b72b63@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII They talk about the end of great art But they're just indulging in pep talks Ain't that right, coach? Jordan On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, Jacques Debrot wrote: > Hey Jim, Wystan, > > Jim--it's humiliating to be called Pierre after we've been out drinking 1/2 a > dozen times together & you've published me in _canihaveyr_. . . . But I do > tend to be socially recessive, so I think I can understand. Anyway here's > what I think about yr posts. Fagin's poetry, to my mind, isn't any better > than the best poetry being written right now--often by people in their 20s > (though a lot of the time I don't know how old the poets are who write the > poems I like). In fact, I almost always find tons of things to enjoy in the > poetry zines I pick up. > > What Fagin--& what the other poets of his generation--are expressing, I > think, is the feeling that they've been passed over w/out having been given > their shot. Do they deserve that? For me--make up yr own mind--there's a > drop-off immediately after the 1st gen NY School. & it tracks closely w/ the > decline in the cultural status of poetry. But that doesn't start in the > 1960s--as Perloff said someplace recently (& I agree w/ her), O'Hara ain't no > T.S. Eliot. So as to which gen of epigones is superior--yrs or Fagin's--who > knows? Apart from the my vs. yr generational tenor of his comments I think > that he's pretty sharp about the derivativeness of the kinds of things you'll > see in the NYC zines. > > Ok--so if I say you should aspire to write as well as Stevens & Eliot--or > let's get even more ridiculous--Shakespeare, Milton, Keats, Dante, etc.--how > could you do it? YOU CAN'T. The instrument's broken. Why should artistic > genres have an infinite lifespan? > > When Fagin says that the payoff for writing poetry is inconsequential, I tend > to believe him. Jim, do you think that by yr generational logic yr poetry is > going to get the shot at some wider attention than his got? I think it's > maybe better to think for oneself than to think for one's generation (an > impossibe burden). That's how to begin at least to talk honestly to oneself > about art--something tremendously difficult to do. > > Wystan, > > Polke is for me still a terrific & inspiring artist--my problem was that i > made too easy analogies across generic boundaries. Greenberg thru de Duve is > as you know an interest of mine. & my end of poetry rants track w/ danto's > end of art screeds to some extent. Maybe we can flesh this out sometime if > it interests you. > > --jacques > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:47:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Why I was a bad poet (was: greatness; editors, editing, etc.) In-Reply-To: <128.385746d.28b72b63@aol.com> from "Jacques Debrot" at Aug 24, 2001 00:00:35 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit According to Jacques Debrot: > > decline in the cultural status of poetry. But that doesn't start in the > 1960s--as Perloff said someplace recently (& I agree w/ her), O'Hara ain't no > T.S. Eliot. Jacques, if either you or Perloff mean by this that O'Hara's poetry never enjoyed (or will enjoy?) the cultural status of Eliot's poetry, well then, perhaps (tho I'd rather not bet on the future). If, on the other hand, either of you mean by this that Eliot's poetry is somehow "better" than O'Hara's, the I would ask: better for who? and for what? If the idea is that it's better for some transcendental or epiphanic art-experience, I ain't havin' it. In fact, let me entertain an outrageous proposition, pretending, just for the sake of argument, that I can make judgments based solely on good aesthetic taste: not only is O'Hara a much better poet than Eliot, Eliot isn't even that great. Reading your post, I went back to thee Wasteland for the 394th time to confirm something I've been thinking for about 2 years: namely, that it must have been pretty easy to write. It strikes me as about what a very smart turn-of-the-century Harvard alum with a good ear, a good library and a good editor could pull off. I can see just how it was manufactured, what resources were drawn upon, the logic of it, etc. If we really want to talk about sublimity, then the intelligible-ness of The Wasteland renders it rather un-sublime for me. It's nice, interesting, but surprisingly paint-by-numbers when you get right down to it. In contrast, I can't really fathom how O'Hara wrote "Ode to Mike Goldberg ('s Birth and Other Births)" or for that matter, how there came to be a Frank O'Hara in the first place. And in modernism I'll take Zukofsky's "A" or "Tender Buttons." We agree on Stevens. But in fact to talk in this way is to avoid/evade my major point, which is that to discuss sublimity as an experience-of-reading, or experinece-of-writing, without accepting the burden of explaining why that experience might be desired, and even of use, is to shirk one's responsibilities. Lowell and Berryman had a list of "greatest" poets which they were constantly adjusting, slowly moving themselves up the latter - that's ambitious, in its way, but they should have been paying more attention to the way the wind was blowing and reading less TS Eliot. -m. > > Ok--so if I say you should aspire to write as well as Stevens & Eliot--or > let's get even more ridiculous--Shakespeare, Milton, Keats, Dante, etc.--how > could you do it? YOU CAN'T. The instrument's broken. Why should artistic > genres have an infinite lifespan? > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 14:18:15 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: NINE WRITERS do NINE at NINE Comments: cc: "CPA Listserv@" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII To all addressees, please include this notice in your upcoming media listings and arts events planning. This is a launch and a group of writers not to be missed. Who says books aren't exciting?? Thank you, Glenn Nuotio (please see below) ___________________________________________________________________ The Limited Ink Writers Collective invite you to the launch and a reading of NINE , a new "book-machine" of new St. John's writing, beginning at NINE p.m. on Tuesday August 28th, 2001 at Steel Mountain Records Bar, 252 Water Street , St. John's. Blending text, image, book design, and poetry, "Nine" is created by nine writers who are among the best in an emerging generation of new Newfoundland writers. With works by Ana Natoli, Andrea Cooper, Kevin Angelo Hehir, Sandra Cowan, Batia Boe Stolar, Elizabeth Mackenzie, Matthew Cook, Benjamin Evans, and Douglas Ivison, 'NINE' is a book-machine in that it acts as a fold-out book, constructed with a stainless steel cover, and is "operated as much as it is read". Copies of "NINE" have been constructed by the collective and are in limited supply of only 150 copies. Many of these have already been pre-sold, but the collective's innovative book-machine will be officially launched and sold at Steel Mountain Bar on Tuesday August 28th. The writers will be in attendance and will read from their works. There is no admission charge and everyone is invited to attend. -40- _________________________________________________________ For further press information, or to arrange interviews with these writers, please contact Kevin Hehir : 726-2464 or by email khehir@cs.mun.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 14:32:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Jacques Debrot: >For me--make up yr own mind--there's a drop-off immediately after the >1st >gen NY School. No, I absolutely don't agree. >So as to which gen of epigones is superior--yrs or Fagin's--who >knows? >Apart from the my vs. yr generational tenor of his comments I >think that >he's pretty sharp about the derivativeness of the kinds of >things you'll >see in the NYC zines. I like a lot of New York magazines, I think it's wrong to keep dismissing the work that's published there, much of which is worth a look. I know nothing about Fagin's poetry. I have nothing against him and his generation of poets. I'm against his need to dismiss and ridicule everyone who didn't grow old with him. >Ok--so if I say you should aspire to write as well as Stevens & Eliot-->or >let's get even more ridiculous--Shakespeare, Milton, Keats, Dante, > >etc.--how could you do it? YOU CAN'T. The instrument's broken. Why > >should artistic genres have an infinite lifespan? I respect, but don't want to write like any of those guys. I want to write my poems. If you're saying my work's broken, my work sucks, I don't have the skills to write, fine. I like my stuff. Do you have to write like those guys to write poetry? I mean, what has the last 50 years of American Poetry been about? >When Fagin says that the payoff for writing poetry is inconsequential, >I >tend to believe him. Jim, do you think that by yr generational >logic yr >poetry is going to get the shot at some wider attention than >his got? I >think it's maybe better to think for oneself than to think >for one's >generation (an impossibe burden). That's how to begin at >least to talk >honestly to oneself about art--something tremendously difficult to do. I think poetry should get out of the king-making business. Sure there's lots of us, lots of voices. This is not a bad thing. I do think for myself: my problem is, many are eager to dismiss all poets under the age of 60. And why is it important that my work receive "wider attention?" Why can't I be one of a pack of great writers, if I deserve it? I admire many young poets: Ange Mlinko, Daniel Bouchard, Jordan Davis, Lisa Jarnot, Anselm Berrigan, Del Ray Cross, Brenda Coultas, Sean Cole, Thalia Field, Hoa Nguyen, Aaron Kiely, Rachel Levitsky, Heather Fuller, Prageeta Sharma, Edmund Berrigan, Joseph Lease, Brendan Lorber, Chris Stroffolino, Joseph Lease, Jason Zuzga, Donna de la Perriere, Dale Smith, Beth Woodcome, John Mulrooney, Jessie Stickler, Cate Marvin, Arielle Greenberg, Rebecca Wolff, Jim Dunn, Fred Moten, Laura Mullen, Nada Gordon, Michael Magee, Jumper Bloom, Wanda Phipps, Elliza McGrand, Brenda Iijima, Mike County, Beth Anderson, Marcella Durand, Mitch Highfill, Nathan Hauke, Matvei Yankelevich, Thomas Sayers Ellis, Juliana Spahr, Bill Louma, Mike Bucell, Tom Devaney, Camille Martin, Summi Kaipa, Lisa Lubasch, Max Winter, Heather Ramsdell, Kristin Prevellat, Karen Weiser, Macgregor Card, Aaryn Richard, Dana Ward, Beth Simon, Buck Downs, Elena Rivera, Bill Alegreeza, Joel Chance, Katie Degentish, Trane Devore, Benjamin Friedlander, Kate Lutzner, Kevin Grant, Aaron Belz, Daisy Fried, Dodie Bellamy, Dietmar Kirk Krumrey, Jeni Olin, Todd Colby, Danielle Legros Georges, David Cameron, Christopher Mattison, Darlene Gold, David Baratier, Anna Ross, Lori Lubeski, Cole Heinowitz, Tanya Foster, Renee Gladman, Lee Ann Brown, Peter Gizzi, Harryette Mullen, Edwin Torres, Cedar Sigo, Betsy Fagin, Elizabeth Treadwell, Mary Burger, Magdelena Zurawski, Katy Lederer, and many, many more. That's almost 100 younger poets--those are only the ones I know and can think of this second (sorry if I've forgotten you, I will kick myself in the morning). There are a billion more who are writing exciting poetry. Moan, you moaners, but the kids are alright. --Jim PS: I'm looking forward to getting turned on to more poets, young and old. I ask the list--who are poets I should be reading? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 13:56:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: Re: Why I was a bad poet (was: greatness; editors, editing, etc.) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was especially taken by Jacques' (pronounced "Zha-KEEZ", as in Shakespeare's "As You Like It, yes?) confession, "The way I've settled it for myself is to stop writing poetry". And I was somewhat miffed by Behrle's discriminatory ~agism,~ ---especially on the same day that the Social Security Administration for the first time offiicially admitted that reducing Soc. Sec. payments is under current serious discussion (but I've been shaking a good finger at Behrle, back-channeled/bare-backed, tsk tsk, the disrespectful ingrate). Not enough is said by or about poetry's silent phases ("to stop writing poetry"). I am either in one or just coming out of one, and I don't know if I ~want~ to come back to poetry as poet, etc. Laura Riding Jackson's continued public articulation and writing from ~the position of~ a poet who is not writing is supremely interesting to me. ("I will never write poetry again, but that is not enough to change me and revoke my 'essence' as poet,--- and it is upon that authority that I'm going to keep blabbering and write kooky dictionaries here in a trailer park in Florida.") (I have wanted to get in touch with (presumed) computer-programmer Alan Jennifer Sondheim about a language-generating program that could apply the rule base [morphologies] of Jackson's syntactical-grammatical sentence structure choices to the discrete vocabulary she was using in her last poems. I believe that the output of such manipulations would in essence be "by" Jackson, or by whomever else such operations could be performed upon, Hart Crane, say, or someone of a helpfully small output. New but posthumous. Ouija poetry. Our language and poetry on the page, absented of voice, is just that: vocabulary arranged according to discrete, idiosyncratic rules. You ARE the sum of those factors. --- But ongoing attempts to construct a "paper machine" version of that R.I.P. by hand, lists, formulae [N-V-N; N-V-Aj-N; . . . for Noun-Verb-Noun {Subject-Verb-Object, Noun-Verb-Adjective-Noun, etc.] are difficult to draw to completion.) To cite only the easy reference immortals: The legendary silence of Rimbaud, the interim silences of Rilke and Valery, and what they ~did~ with or during those silences fascinates me (Valery's immersion into mathematics during his poetry-less years, for example). AUTOBIOGRAPHIA LITERARIA OF A TOTAL FAILURE NOBODY HAS EVER HEARD OF IN THE FIRST PLACE OR WOULD GIVE A HOOT IF YOU DROPPED OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH AND EVERY LAST POET INCLUDED WHO WOULD NOTICE In my own case (WHO CARES!), now that my personal life has been callously ripped open on The List--- after the death of my 16-yr. old cat Shiki in January 2000, two years of nightly, hour-and-a-half sitting, eventually 28-line maximum poetry production came to an abrupt stop. When, after the fact, I realized that I had "stopped writing," I wasn't sure I entirely minded or that I should force myself back into it. Instead, it being a new millenium, me being on my own [cat-less] for the first time in 18 yrs., I decided that secondary paths of "creativity" that I was playing hide-&-seek with all my life, such as music (composition) and photography, this being a technological age, might be worth finally taking up "seriously." I entered a "non-verbal" arts period that lasted a year and a half. (Avant-garde cat requiescat photography of Shiki at http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/jeffreyjullich/lst?.dir=/CATS+MU+%26+SHIKI+(IN+MEMORIAM)&.view=t . Click thumbnails to enlarge.) Then, --- strange how crises, Scylla and Charybdis, bat me back and forth between poetry and no-poetry, --- when I injured my left hand in May, within days (at first I assumed I had "regressed," defensively), I was picking up on the Greek translation stuff and poetry projects I'd put aside years ago. I don't entirely like the change. "Poetic consciousness" is in many ways a more personally uncomfortable, conflict-ridden state of mind (being the most long-lived axis of my personality, with archaic roots in ["Maxims from my Mother's Milk", Messerli] nursery rhymes etc.) than the empty-headedness music and imagery had given me. Camille described her bed-time "poetic"/"audio-hallucinatory" consciousness recently. "Poetic consciousness" is very bothersome for me now: my mind goes into a sort of Sort mode, where words begin coming out of nowhere, based on their ~shape,~ consonants mainly: consonant -- cnsnnt --- Nissan --- canzone --- nascent --- ~niente~ --- can son not . . . Currently, I'm sort of teeter-tottering as to whether poetry is going to "break loose" again, and whether I'll "let it." With musical composition, because my proficiency was so far below my language fluency, I found that I could work for hours and get up to have produced barely four chords or a couple of measures. The time/output ratio was absurd. --- But that's accustomed me to, and changed my expectations about what constitutes artistic activity, so that I'm more open to a similarly glacial poetic "flow": lately, a day may produce, if at all, less than a half dozen unrelated words,--- because I ~weigh and measure~ every phoneme so infinitesimally now. (There has been maybe one full "poem", a few lines here and there, and a stalled attempt at a "longer" poem using a historical character persona, something I'd never done, besides the 2001 slowdown I mention. I can't evaluate them, though: aesthetics/taste, too, is likewise dematerializing for me and I tend to perceive only in terms of power-functions, social configurations, etc., where "quality" becomes, as MM was saying, obscurantist.) Enough about me. Isn't Robert Grenier the master of "impoverished idiom" that you were searching after? Hannah Weiner seemed to be constantly bungling her diction in a laughably frank way. Heather Ramsdell's "Lost Wax" has numerous, shockingly inarticulate phrasings. I'm not an advocate of "Great Books", necessarily (despite appearances), but--- it's precisely this ~agism~ --- damaging not only in turning against the most unheard voice in America, that confined in nursing homes --- that prevents boy from seeing the adolescent ~youthfulness~ of these Great Male Authors! Milton is big great eternal post-pubescent wanting to kill king, sympathy for the devil . . . Milton: our first Satanist. I've been re-reading Dante's Paradiso,--- and he's so f--kin' weird. Here you have this guy, right (I know little about Dante's actual autobiog)? who falls in love --- is it some under-age minor, like Petrarch's? --- and he does nothing that 2001 young can understand to consummate that passion. To the contrary he's possibly living in religious chastity (crossing knees),--- and he sets up this architecture where he SPEAKS ILL OF THE DEAD!, putting people he personally knew and political figures in dioramas. Paradiso Canto III: he meets in heaven Piccarda Donati, deceased sister of a friend of his; he's already shown us that friend of his in Purgatory (thanks, Dant'. Nice pal); Piccarda was forced into some sort of "hateful" marriage that betrayed, I take it, her nun's vows; --- so, she's IN A LESSER HEAVEN, as far as Dante can tell, cause she's in the outermost ring. Like living in the suburbs: a fate too unthinkable, Tantalus paradise. VICTIMS GIVEN "LESSER PARADISE" FOR HAVING, what, BEEN WRONGED/RAPED? How come? Dante wantsa know. Telepathic untouchable Beatrice soul knows what he's wondering and goes into a philosophical critique of ~will~ --- but--- here your head'll spin, whee: in the process, Bea' holds out as moral models a PAGAN Roman who STUCK HIS HAND IN FIRE because he hadn't STABBED an enemy of the state, and a great Christian martyr who was roasted alive on a gridiron. Like, nice holy saint mentality, Bea'. Young fogey, the truth now: can ~you~ get that weird? My "attitude" (4:15 a.m.: fogies will "go to bed now" as soon as ~you~ crawl under the sheets first, Endymion stretched out under moonlight, hustler): I wasn't really calling for a "moratorium" on poetry. What I meant was more that the "I am a poet and worth listening to in my self-centeredness" position is insufficient to advance the common cause of XXIInd century poetry in general. Overpopulation plus hyperproductivity equals--- our current Hong Kong/Calcutta/Times Square inundation. Most poetry ~has no Other.~ Confessionalists/autobiography has the Other of the maligned parent (Mr. Olds) who's being badmouthed ~without recourse to defense~ since there is no opportunity we know of to hear Mr. Olds' or the Lowells' side of the story. Poetry like Susan Howe's, or Garret Lansing's "Stephen Phillips' Marpessa" poem, or etc. or etc., the utopian poetic ~care~ that I was calling for that would CARRY FATHER across the river on back, Aeneas-wise, instead of just or at least prior to stereo-Oedip-ically murdering him --- work like Howe's, presents the Influence of Anxiety antecedent literary figure as ~an Other~ who, uniquely, we can meet on their own terms: I have gone back and read AND I LOVE HER Watts-Dunton (Swinburne's boyfriend) whom Howe uses in ~Pierce.~ Libraries are columbariums. Books are funerary urns you can rattle and hear an echo of the dead. Print and literature are ultimately a necrophilia. "Fame" and "greatness" wane in their drive, for me. "Love"/"lust" and "attraction" take on more force. EVERYTHING, if you have the dedication to persevere, THAT YOU HAVE WASTED YOUR ENTIRE LIFE ON will be SWEPT AWAY by a multitude of current global population nine billion multiplied by another generation to total WHITE NOISE people UNABLE even if they wanted to distinguish "good"/"bad" art when there are N-zillion logically valid aesthetic positions and a mountainous heaps of remaindered poetry books like toxic waste dumps of "sincerity" nobody'll be able to stomach for an instant in our increasing emotionlessness. The smaller the audience the better, because a very small audience approaches the limit of ~an audience of one.~ And an audience of one, you and another person, is the real condition of ~INTIMACY.~ ("Audience", I detest the term--- like: clap, audience! Now performer will bow.) Fame, outside Hollywood/Time Warner, can only begin by you dedicating yourself to making SOMEONE ELSE who isn't already famous famous. Ashbery was a fine model: this fogey harped and harped, whoever would talk to him, like Monsieur Idee Fixe: "Have you read Raymond Roussel?" "Have you read de Chiricho's 'Hebdomeros'?" (WHO?) "...Laura Riding Jackson?" and when finally he made it big the first thing he did was turn all of that authority he'd garnered to getting Roussel and "Hebdomeros" into print and attention. Come to bed now. The mattress is still warm with your father's sweat. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 15:20:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: book. the seventh going, the last. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - book. the seventh going, the last. the relationship of consciousness to the world vis-a-vis structure, abstraction, symbolic systems. but the relationship of consciousness to its inscription: who is inscribing: veering back from the concern, blind ambition (see anecdotal) tending towards theoretical thwarting, return of the repressed - immersive and definable structures which are negotiations - irreversible or reversible - hierarchy of such structures - sets and arrows - categories - the implicate orderings of consciousness within all of this - untended: unintended consciousness: my work is already an es- cape, already unfounded: the phenomenological investigation of this rela- tionship requires a certain sensitivity: i have granted myself this: fol- lowing thought into harder structures: following structures into their languor or lassitude: the seventh going...the leaving of the number... for sooner or later there must come that moment of decay...proton or otherwise...the loosening of the strands, breaking of the vessels...the implicate order itself gone in the gone world...structure always requires maintenance...i leave you to your fate...the going of the book...interior moves... writing, within, or against, the paragraph, writing among texts, return to the repression of style, continuous honing, innuendo, negation, contrary and contradictory, of the sixth go at it, against the other five, the quasi-logical structure of the lifeworld. but which lifeworld, which state of confusion, which state of health: consideration of obsessional neurosis as the holding-forth of the world, radical deposition - the continuous need to inscribe, reinscribe - territorializations and assign- ations - not the theoretics of doubt but the analytic inability to take anything for granted - exhaustion as a condition for the constant recon- struction of the world: thinking of the play or theatrics of the world: methodologies of distancing and absorption: for it is of the moment... the logical structure which requires the possibilities both of connection and disconnection at a distance...that affairs may have no relationship among themselves...none of them...that affairs are all connected...teth- ered...wandering in a landscape (such that) entities are unknown, incon- ceivable... of the sixth go at the philosophical, against the other five, the inter- stice of thought, thought's blurred reminiscence, thought's thoughtless- ness, the potential for philosophical investigation through audio-visual and other media. but what style, what genre: whose investigation, what gender, what methodology, what deployment of desire: questions of periodization, extension of media on a continuous feed-forward basis, inextricably tied down to corporate research and development programs - weakening of them- atic thinking - the need to organization meta-methodologies of search / knowledge strategies - on the other hand the loosening of semantics through the muteness of audio-visual representations - what one might call "kidding ourselves" through the semblance of research: that's all there might be to it: a certain carelessness of thought: fudging, the kludge or glitch: loss of rigor: one might speculate that even the theorization of such loss constitutes a defensive fortification against theorization itself: one door might close...another open...on both sides the identical landscape...oxherders visible in the distance...the encryption is abso- lute... of the sixth, the go at it, defending the other five goes, of the text which insists on veering out of genre, of the genre of the philosophic, of the literary, the natural order of structure. but what nature: whose nature: whose cooperation: whose corporation: but what contractuality: the natural world under the sign of capital, in-corporation, em/bodiment of nature, the body politic, political body, structure transformed into performance, action - but the chaotic debris of the body - extensions of flesh - subtexting in which the dissolution of language is paramount, and always the problematic of the symbolic - what is the binding of standing-in-for if not already allegory, sign, inscription, intention - think of the bound body as al- ready the hieroglyph and its politicization, the restraint of the symbol- ic: arousal, tumescence, distension, stretched or opened skin: upwelling of debris and frisson, shuddering, stuttering, trembling of the subject: she knows it has reached...already...you might have guessed it...you could already see it in the sixth go at it all...approaching a moment when it is completed...ready for others' eyes...interpretations...hermen- eutics...approaches...critiques...postulations...hypotheses...how empty and vulnerable... or of the sixth go at it, binding the other five, of the politicization of philosophy, the ideology underpinnings, of the sixth go at it underpinning itself, loosening, "hardly something to write home about," consciousness in relation to subjectivity. but what consciousness: what eidetic reduction: what cognitive mappings: what mathematical catastroph- es: what tropes: the jump cut from phenomenology to mathesis, suturing the subject for whom the book is written, the writing of explanation and description and the problematic situating both, the cusp catastrophe as that leap which creates structural extension, boundary, moving-on - the fold, leaping into the fold, the relationship of the fold catastrophe to the sheffer stroke and its dual - elsewhere of not-both-a-and-b tending towards the nomadic, exhaustion - the exhaustion of "the species" or "the organism" - planetary exhaustion, universal denouement - already present in the specter of death - wandering in the dual - neither-a-nor-b - it is as if it splits: neither one nor the other: then there is the proboscis or exploratory thesis: we have escaped the monadology: the proboscis is a sign of truth...extension extends both tolerance and domain...every phy- sics existing within the limit...newtonian...euclidean...asymptotic... there is always something else...increase the energy or magnification... the other will appear... of the sixth go at it, expelled from the rest, temporally following after the others, "camp-follower," the go explaining everything, the diegetic or diacritical go, of the interstitial, of all of them, of the goes to come, inserted into enumeration: unaccountable and unaccounted-for: "there's no telling" of the soul: "there's no telling" of the eye: there's no future but hunger: no future but the desire or commitment to one or an/other: the other appears at the magnification...at the limit everything changes ...there is no limit... there's no telling of the sixth, the sixth does the telling, it's as if the sixth were told to itself, whispered to itself, it's as if the sixth were imaginary or avatar, hardly an insertion, as if the sixth were suddenly, irrevocably, scratched into the text, as if its place were placed and forgotten, as if one "walked away" from meaning and its defen- sive fortification, virtual subjectivity and its relation to protocols, the imaginary, and linguistic performativity. but which protocols: whose imaginary against what inscription and whose thetic: but what languages and what mechanisms of performance/perforation: who is speaking for whom across avatars, first through other persons and tenses, what insistence carries the projection and project of consciousness across real and virtual networks, what of consciousness as such project, what of the peripheral imaginary, the imaginary always already at a loss against or through the symbolic, what of the symbolic as always already foreclosing, what of the toppling of the scheme of things, what of alterities, multiculturalisms, sloughs, symbolic emissions and spews, flows, the flooding of clutter and part-objects - spoken within or spoken-for by avatars - consciousness as dialectic among semantic emissions among subjects only some of which seem real - there are always the virtual among us - ghosts, emanants, kami - ectoplasms at the periphery - prosthetics, prostheses - who among us is cyborg cauterized by insertion of flesh or electronic diegesis - moving among cyborgs - all of us caught in virtual realities - the keywords absent, unknown - we exhaust ourselves avoiding death and its already equally exhausted aporia - we're drawn in and out of it - this is a different sort of limit...entirely... no...this is exactly the same...confrontation of the other as the self swoons or collapses into unconsciousness... it's as if the sixth were a portal to the fifth, it's as if the fifth were coming forth, we're speaking as if we're spoken-for: we're spoken-for as if we're speak- ing: imagine a speech bypassing to such an extent that it occupies another stratum entirely: that it appears to come from elsewhere: from neither-a- nor-b: that it is one with aurality: that it comes from the limit...that it is the limit of the end which is denouement...that it continues past the exist from the theater...that it is an emission or spew from the thea- ter...from the theatrical... of the sixth which is bypassing, which is already speaking against itself, which is attempting closure, finish, beyond the denouement, which is of the end, ending itself against the rest "of them," the entrapment and proliferation of detail in a partially-cooled universe between plasma and annihilation. but which inscription and which seal: but what decade and what millennium: but what substrate and cosmological constant: and what of the sweeping away of the diachronic, necessary for the therapeutic or functioning of the organism within this space, this imminency, annihilation at the limit taken to the level of the absurd- catastrophic, debris - we're huddled in relation to our own demise - we can smell the fear of it - the phenomenology of scent - nowhere and everywhere at once - the smell of a person indeterminate, unidentifiable, seductive - the procuring of death - writing and writing against it - the continuous evolution of writing into and out of it - writing oneself into existence - writing oneself out of it - or at that limit where there is no mapping...no writing...inscription...whatsoever...no mapping...no per- ception..."she collapsed utterly upon the stage...they had to rush her out of the theater"...the audience... the sixth go at it all already written out of it, as if these intersper- sions no longer existed, as if one were subservient to the future anterior, the very scent of the sixth, its huddling, its refugee status, the audience... the scent bringing us back: the scent of the w/hole, anal musk: the scent of the cauterization of philosophy: the anal fissure - not the inscription of a / not-a, but the fissure of the same among/within the same: substance fissures, structure breaks at inscription: she is doing her toilet...she is reading...wiping herself...her scent is everywhere in the room...it is as if the walls have closed with her help...she wipes herself repeatedly ...it takes a while...the touch of the paper soft against her hole... of neither inscription nor fissure, of the sixth, already broken, of its annoyance, almost the scent of decay, the scent of abjection, falling-apart: the body bound, held taut against or within the generation of the hieroglyph: substance into structure through the release of no-thought: desire: glyph: she touches her anus lightly with her finger...she is utterly clean...clean to the limits "of what soft paper might be able to do"...she rises... the unmentioned or unmentionable sixth go at it all, hardly a considera- tion, variorum editions piled on, one after another, as if in collusion, collaboration with the enemy, espionage, each reading the other, of public consumption, the orders and relationships among communication, communality, and sexual- ity. but what mind lost among them: what sado-masochistic part-objects modeling the contractual contrast of the world, who are the communities that assemble consciousness out of linkages and couplings, out of contigu- ities and contingencies, what are the mathematics that operate within these fields such that the addition of a term in a chain may or may not affect that chain, and the withdrawal of a term in a chain may or may not transform the topology - what is the lure of a masochism in which all theoretics are abandoned - the organism at the limit of its existence - "i am still alive" - the shell or hull of the organism - the universal condition - but the rupture from everyday life: but the return: it is at the juncture that the contract is enacted: that use becomes exchange: the incipient or implicit or implicate or emergent quality of the signifier: the word just beginning as the bonds are released: she flushes the toilet ...pulls her panties up...her skirt...smoothes her clothing...the book she was reading...her own...she's surrounded by herself..."one of those few times in my life i felt really complete"... released into the sixth go at it, the problematic of enumeration beginning all over again, releasing the sixth into the hinge between closure and further operations, as if, to operate upon the book, the text, a universe of universal operations, fragility and specificity of operability and the human. but what goodness: but what taxonomies of errors, mistakes, phenomenologies of corrupted or failed teleologies, what judgments, what ethos: the constant collapse in the face of catastrophe, beginning and ending with ground zero, the null of physics politicized, culturalized, as the embedding of the focal-point within the aegis of any project of the subject - the implosion of infor- mation within and without the subject - think of the skein or membrane of the subject, subjectivity - network subjectivity, subjective networking - embedded survival - "i am still alive" - "i" turns against itself: is turned: is shredded: cannot turn: loses "its" domain: fissures: it is here within this fissuring that "i come closest to the substance of the world": she comes out of the room...the light is harsher...she has to adjust... everything in relation to the world...outside of the bathroom she hears... sees...touches...people speak to her...there are books...papers...to be read...radio...television...telephone...inside the adjustment itself falls away...she can contemplate the ending of the book...not its finality...it is never such...never in such a way..."one never loses track fully of one's children"... but the sixth go at it is not the sixth go at it all, not of the sub- stance of which it is a part, not fissured or broken down, not corrupted, propositional logics and the elsewhere of the sheffer stroke and its dual. but whose withdrawal of the not-both-a-and-b, whose banishment of neither- a-nor-b: what of the stroke itself engendered as | in relation to the dual v, the stroke retaining the dissemination of division, the dual tending towards the problematic of the scapegoat and expulsion - the nomadicism of the disappearing map - the implosion of the map into the real - nomadic annihilation of landmark, fluid kinship entities, constant transformations - one might say survival "at any cost" - there are no universal discourses - no discourses of the universe - automated writing - the philosophical writing of/by the automaton - the writing of the tape-recorder: imagine such without tape: it is the machine which is speaking: it is speaking through us: it is a far cry from the turing machine: turing's cry: the children in her demanding to emerge...she writes constantly...obsessively ...she can't sleep at night unless she's written something "she approves of"...sometimes masturbation..."all those connections are there"...she notes...she takes notes...she takes note of...these variations... of, somewhere along the line, the final go at it, the manuscript put aside, the book completed, the philosophical argument temporarily term- inated, the professor returns to her study, returns home, the professor has a meal, go to sleep, dreams, the professor wakes in the morning, decides just for once not to go to work this day, she turns over the day...she takes note of it... doubt and deconstruction of conclusions. but whose doubt against what standards and relativisms: what auguries of truth and denial: what obses- sional neuroses: what ignorance, incoherencies: the autobiography of the leap, short-circuiting or short-cutting ignorance, as if something could be made out of whole cloth, there are always strategies of apology, implications of humility, everything in the way, no clarity towards its absence - theoretical weakening, weak theory, as the shifting behind the scenes - think of the submerged philosophy of submergence in relation to extruded theoretical abstraction, pronouncement, death and facticity - the humility of the masochist: the transformation into substance: from there the pronouncement of no pronouncement: there is no mirror, no dust: there is no body: of the time when the thing is born that she annotates...she thinks "of these notes...annotations...of the world i find myself in...in a way of finding myself"...she finds herself saying... the professor puts the manuscript of the sixth go aside, just for the moment; the book "has almost completed itself," the book is "as finished as it's going to be," "i've done with the book," she knows...the world is hardly such as it is or annotated...there is far more to it...later ...it will gnaw at her...now...just for a moment it's as if everything is okay... the scientific as that methodology among others, in spite of heuristic breakdowns and the problematic of mathematics. what crystalline mechanism inherent of the tractatus-logico-philosophicus, what neoplatonism, what conventions, inscriptive labor: retaining the last vestige of ontology, giving existence a nearly-decomposable structure from groundwork to lifeworld, superstructure disconnections, proliferations of objects, elements, particles, things, organisms, universal constructs of contrasts and boundaries, boundaries maintenance, the general economy of inscription - episteme and ontology blurred - interpenetrations of regimes and domains - conventionalisms and idealities both subject to the same dis/ease of heuristic - bricolage or making-do in the world - this is hardly satisfac- tory for anyone - this is hardly the case of the world - the case of the world in relation then to the case of our being, dasein - the case of the world in relation to dis/ease - but there is no case: there is no world "such that it or that is the case": there is always the case that one does or does not make: there is always the general case but never the most general case: there are only notes...she's noted her stomach is once again upset...she's feeling ill..."been feeling ill"...she returns to the toilet ...pulls her skirt and panties down...the feeling of nudity is comfortable ...this is all there is...of the writing-machine or the description-mach- ine...far less of explanation...as soon as i start thinking this way it falls apart...back into that doubt such that everything is problematic... she knows...thinks...it has something to do with health... the case comes to a close, the professor muses, at least at the sixth go of it all, it's by and large, at least for the moment, i'm going to have a breather, after or before the illness...what is in my stomach...what is happening to me...she thinks momentarily of the phenomenology of causality ..."is happening"...everything is about agency...she thinks...but really ...everything is about agency dying... the topology of intention and neurality in relation to externalized mind and memory. but what privilege of data-banks, whose computers, whose optical fiber, whose skein of satellites, what membranes and firewalls, whose hackings and what penetrations: the future of networkings among multi-taskings, virtual realities, information wars, incandescent sexual hysterias, thickened communalities, and the relationships among these and other futures vis-a-vis theoretical abstraction and general accounts of cultural and universal creation - teledildonics and nodal bodies - voy- eurisms and exhibitionisms as inversions or dissolutions of entities, categoricities - the splayed or opened body - the body displaying or opening - the w/hole of the body - disruption or perturbation of percep- tion - the skeins of death and exhilaration - the splayed or opened electric body: mesh of contacts: bridgings, spark-gaps, tesla coils, stelarc-penetrations as flesh turns nebulous turns nebula: the absolute revulsion against secrecy is also the revulsion against language and the foreclosing of the signifier: bell's theorems as the body scatters: it's kept in contact: it's kept in contact with the skein: with nothing: with itself: with the semantics of foreclosed entities: the signifier makes agents...agents are signifiers..."otherwise the headless world"...how much of the shifter...i...need exist in order to set in motion...innum- erable universes...her mind wanders... i'm going to enjoy myself after the fifth, before the seventh, she thinks of the trajectory, of the content and indexicality of the book, of its weight, the cover chosen by the publisher (an unknown chinese painting of the sung dynasty), of the narrative faltering, almost bring the work "to its knees," there is the beautiful book in every universe...and it is in my universe and it is my book...she thinks... partial-objects and partial-mappings as givens in the construction and reconstruction of the world. but of the gathering of accumulations and assemblage of fragments, of the clutter and a-historicity of the world: the disappearance of history, resonance of ideological tendencies among historiographies, irrelevance of historical and theoretical recuperation, the loss of the world among the world - the absolute loss of the world in the future of the cosmos - writing/inscribing degree zero - the horizon of the uselessness of organism - continuous eroding of transcendence - gras- ping or cohering of imminence - loss of imminence: turning away for the moment...she considers...innocence "in its place"...the innocence...not of the world...but her innocence at stake...the recognition that there are levels within everything she sees or does...that her work has involved a certain uncovering...she's out of the bathroom thinking...i'm leaving debris behind in more ways than one..."everything is uncomfortable"... everything is partial...the erosion of shit or rather the erosion of the world into shit...organisms decontextualize...information irretrievably lost...mayday...mayday... of the sixth, here and now, of its inscription, it might be any of a series, accounted for, the terms begin to blur, one into the other, each revision another addition or edition, except for the punctuation, she muses, you could hardly tell where one ends and the other begins, i'm so tired...i'm so tired of it all...waking up in the morning and realizing none of it matters...the neuroses don't disappear...i sleep as badly as ever...in a while the finishing of the book...sinks in...it's back to the same old routines...it's as anyone might imagine...she thinks and in this fashion the symbolic devolves...back into the imaginary...it's all there...nothing's there... loss of positionality: what is unaccounted-for: accountancy and the de- marcation of nodes, direct and indirect addressing: a list of cases: if not 1 then 2; if not to then 3; if not n then endif: she's feeling somewhat better...sweating however...feverish...endif... every content an indirect addressing, including the sixth, tending towards those resonances already discussed, in which feedbacks collapse into skeins of relationships, in which relationships are ruptured...turned or inverted...inside and outside...momentary stases...impediments...nothing more... the use of cases, examples, anecdotality, perceptual modes, in relation to theoretical abstraction. what stories hidden with failures, ridden with failures, gaps in texts, hiatus, ignorance: what negations (there are none): what tales (they're all fiction): what parables (pretense!): and in relation to the audience, what demographics following what core phenomena, core metaphors, what one might tell you of an evening in miami with grack- les scrabbling among scraps of food already evincing a symbolic construc- ted among all of us in crude parody of heisenbergian sheffer-stroke quasi- analytical approaches, as if the natural world were no longer problematic but a gift towards the understanding - or now, outside this hotel room #330 there are cartons of palm pdas on the landing - they have been there all day - some are opened, people are taking them - i imagine, idiotic- ally, vast supplies of drugs - they're payoff - everyone knows what's going on - right outside the window here - taken fearlessly - personal communications and informal economies - more and more networks opening up - you can see all of this from the window - i've drawn the shades - maybe witnesses conveniently disappear - imagination runs wild - one never knows - she arches her body naked on the bed: there are people outside: her holes are visible, open: she is speaking: "i am alan sondheim's beautiful wife, welcome to miami": he is sitting naked, erect, on a chair, his face covered with her panties: he's moaning: the sound resonates with the tunnel reverberation effect in final cut pro: the camera cuts between the two of them: cuts to apartment-houses, children playing: cuts to people walking down a street: cuts to an office interior: interruption of the ending of the book or the seventh going...she's looking around the office ...looking out of it...interruption coming to an end... she's listening to him moan, she's completed the book, strangely excited now, her mind drifting to other things after the sixth, he's her neurotic husband, can hardly keep his mind focused, he's always falling apart, always building worlds out of nothing, or nothing out of worlds, it's beginning to make less and less of a difference, the virtual is descending like a dark cloud, impenetrable, onto the subject, any subject, any human being, she thinks, she's him...he's her...there are no divisions...in the war which is always on...body parts are piled on body parts...it's never- ending...differences are always dissolving like shit itself...but there's a pleasure...she thinks...in the bathroom...her own smells...surroundings that are strangely comforting...more naked than nude...the exhalations of the body...looking at the toilet paper before flushing...now though... looking at him...her excitement building...the next time he'll wipe her himself... exhaustion, defuge, and the wavering of existence in terms of the physical well-being of the body, as well as the deconstruction of that well-being. but what disease of the writer, what writing-disease: what textual wound- ing: what ending to what written world: what semantics, what syntactic endings: from indo-european to the absence of the subject in the sentence, the absence of the eye and the shifter, the winding up of the winding- sheet and loosening of the world from language in relation to or in spite of natural kinds, rigid designators, performatives, proper names, who are alan sondheim, daishin nikuko, who are julu-jennifer - what wounding of informal economies - what disseminations - you can have any name you want - take any gender - it's all there for the asking - nervously looking out the window - who will be next - here in the motel room - what knocks on the door - emptied hallways - strangely quiet around here - the camcorder runs on: everything is broken up: entities, circulations created: here is a thing now: this is the thing: what is the thing but shit between the two of them...abject mingling...when she dies...she muses...no one will care about proper names any longer...there's a great sadness there...it's overtaking her... of the sixth of which this is all there is, the computer runs, the hard- drive recoiling with entry after entry, the suppuration of the file itself, what might have been canonically inert, now open in the digital to eternal salvation on one hand, continuous change, revision, hacking, on the other, it's someone else's revision...someone else's hacking...it's even someone else's salvation...sadness turning towards depression...what to do...what to do... this is the first thing: this is the only thing there is: to rest...to give herself a break..."not to be so hard on herself"... of the sixth, almost the disappearance of the bones, of the bones, almost the disappearance of the marrow, of the marrow, the disappearance of the flesh, but of the book...of the sevenths and now last...not so much a disappearance as a momentary appearance..."i'm here for you"..."i've arrived"..."i'll be here for a while"..."now i'm here and present and the world is very very lovely"...do not be depressed my love...do not be so very...so very sad... but the dis/ease of writing - sound of keys - i can't stop this - the living representation of information society - at work on the network - gasping for breath on the network: holding our own on the network: a swarm of us: groups of us: groups of us comforting us among us...chora and chorus...the maternal roots...lullaby...but the healing of the two of them...for a moment...in the dusk or is it later in the evening...moaning and other sounds at the limits of the other...mewlings...cries... groups of us writing through her, assembling the sixth go at it all, muted conversation about the sixth, its continuity and careful honing, we arrive at everything through collaboration, discussion, you'd be surprised at how few disagreements there are, she could sense already...she could sense herself...she could see it coming...and all the discomfort knowing that the world continues exactly as before with all its jagged edges..."i didn't learn a thing"..."i'm as ignorant as ever"... what writing: what loss of writing to the world: such presumption that continuous production becomes closer to the thing, defines it, the "thing" or "it" or production, that the model of labor creates and forecloses among entities, that divisions and boundary phenomenology are somehow riddled with existence - always honing in - always flying apart - them- atic thickening, weakening - the philosophy in this book - this attempt or collocation of thought - this process of thinking - a kind of jabbering back and forth from systems of representation through structuralisms always nearly-decomposable, bricolaged, falling apart - writing ground down - inscription as well - into the abstraction of thought constantly retethered - the thinking of the return - nomadic homing-in - corrals prevent chaos: cages break down disseminations: locks contain spews: banks hold back floods: muscle tension retains shit: "slips of the lips sink ships": "maybe someday i'll return"..."this is...what might be called... the saying or thinking of everything...of thinking nothing at all...a poor thinking...poor thought"...she begins to cry...mourning every tiniest thing in the world...every wounded insect...every wounded bird...trees with broken limbs...she senses "the depression hitting her"..."the depres- sion coming on"... she's opening herself up to herself for the first time, she thinks, now that the work's done, now that i have myself, she's looking in the mirror, naked, closely examining her body, she's "got to pull out of it"...she's got to open up..."it's a book after all"..."it's nothing but a book"... "don't take it so seriously"... that of or within existence - that of the nought, cipher - of weyl's cartesian origin as the last vestige of the ego in mathematization - you can always locate from that point - sufficient vectors, orthogonal or not - giving thought the substrate necessary for reading - writing - or is it in fact necessary: consider a flooded reading, a reading without order: phrases and fragments, resonances out of which a certain philosophic tone: philosophy itself: emerges: "it's a masterpieces"..."you've said all you're going to say"..."you've gone to the limit...taken it to the limit ...you've returned"...she's walking...dazed... she thinks, i've stuttered everywhere among myself, i've felt my texts run through me repeatedly, i've mouthed them insistently, i've cut crystal out of them, i've brought them to their knees, they've taken me over...i've lost my limbs...they're my phantom limbs...i'm dying... returning to the apparatus or partial-objects necessary for this - most recently bought an antique glass pen - dip it in the ink, write for a third of a page or so - hand-blown - here working with components made in malaysia - the result of academic exchange - there are data-bases involved - obsolescences - atavisms and dead media - prosthetics even in the illumination of the screen (from before or behind) - what it is you are reading "this" in - a whole system of temporary equivalences, technologies - repetitions of databases - never forgetting a thing - to you...dear reader...this is all i have to give you...this is what i've been working for...towards...my entire life...there's very little left of me...nothing can ever be taken for granted...i've never done that...all these partials ...impartials...in this world of partial impartials...her hands are flut- tering almost uselessly...she's becoming aware of her hands...moving them ..."nearing the end of so many things at this critical juncture in his- tory"..."in our history"... neither the fifth nor the fourth; neither the fourth nor the third; nei= ther the third nor the second which, almost mewling, crept along the theoretical substrate desperate for suturing, neither the second nor the first, far too exposed, inverted, laying the groundwork, withdrawing simultaneously, of a certain breathing of the text, she's noticing her breathing...is it always like this...is it always the same...on its own ...her breathing..."is philosophy a sickness"..."a sign of ill health" ...is writing itself that illness which produces no change in the writer ...in spite of everything... writing into this: section by section: paragraph by paragraph: each revi- sion as if it were the last: the most important: each addition a more careful construct: the work appearing from the inside-out: philosophy unbound: evening the seventh ending...not even the portal to the eighth ...the portal to the ninth..."having to end this sometime"...she's feeling the loss of the word...loss of the world...perhaps there's a meeting to go to...she should call a friend...her husband...they're dressed again..."the bedroom scene"...they haven't been out in a long time...it's taken a long time to finish the work...she's been almost compulsive about it...sometimes not even eating...the sleeping broken down to the point of incoherence...circadian rhythms collapsed into bad rem...she'll find herself sleeping on her feet...waiting in line...on the toilet...she doesn't understand this..."i don't have the energy to worry about it"...for a moment she thinks that the book...such as it is ...theoretical abstraction...is one long sign or departure...a form of mourning...she thinks "there's very little left of me"...they are very very tired...they fall into bed...turn out the light...she's whimpering slightly..."existence...of and about existence...has everything to do with it"...they fall asleep...they sleep... of the sixth go at it all, the revision or breathing of the text, she is sleeping soundly for the first time in her life, there are small cells, cancer, in her left breast, just a few of them, they are feeding, "she is sleeping soundly...her sickness will come...they are all sleeping... all of them are sleeping"... _ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 13:32:18 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: "bad"... In-Reply-To: <3B86955C.54F563D2@columbia.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" well yknow, shaft was/is pretty *bad*---remember?---and i always liked shaft mself... /// joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 12:46:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson Subject: fashion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hey folks there is art and craft in fashion. At least there if the stuff falls apart it's quite obvious. Saluting Karl Lagerfield, and off to read Vanity Fair, Elizabeth ps Jim Behrle you are a dear. __________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell http://www.poetrypress.com/avec/populace.html "Part little Serpents, or odd Flies, or Worms, or any strange Thing" --Aphra Behn _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 13:22:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Silem Mohammad" Subject: greatness, lateness, out-of-dateness Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Warning: long digressive post follows. David Baratier adds some categories of greatness to my list, and naturally one could come up with many others. In fact, that is probably one good thing to spend one’s time doing: continually thinking of new ways of being great (or wonderful). Either that or actually being it. To each his own! The Olson example you give for "The Living Great Theorem," David, puts me in mind again of Barrett Watten's remarks on subjective aesthetic response, as that is the same example he uses, albeit less approvingly. I concur that this sort of "great man" rep has its positive uses--firing up other writers, planting ideas, etc. I wonder further whether there is not, through some ineffable alchemy, some tangible quality of greatness projected backwards into the work "itself" as a result of such cultural enshrinement, so that the "page still recasts that incantatory moment" as you say. I think mebbe perhaps, tho this is where people start crying canonization & mystification. This is for me what makes, say, reading a lot of first-gen language poetry a stimulating experience rather than just a frustrating or tedious one: the texts have come to contain some of the social energy they helped to generate, becoming almost material icons for it. This is ultimately circular, but it is a good account of my experience as reader nonetheless. It's not that any old thing can become "great" literature if enough people take it seriously & then confer that seriousness back on it as in a time machine; it's more that the greatness is a latent potential which becomes more visible gradually, like a time-release watermark. Belief in which requires some measure of faith, I suppose, and that's the issue. As for "The Single Poem Theory," all I can think of is James Tate's "The Lost Pilot." A cantankerous example, because this a "great poem" that made a reputation, but in the years since I first read it and fell to my knees, I've come to appreciate a lot of his other stuff a lot more, and to see that initial monument as in many ways manipulative & schticky. I guess the real example would be Joyce Kilmer's "Trees." _There_ is an impenetrably solitary and unrepeatable act of enunciation. Kilmer _is_ "Trees," "Trees" _is_ Kilmer. And the greatness of the poem is absolutely undeniable as long as there's anyone who remembers it, for obvious reasons. Right? I'll take questions on that one later. "The poet who is passed among poets" seems like an offshoot of the "Living Great" category. Don't about 87% of the poets most of us on this list read fit into this group? Some other possible categories: 1) Great At What They Do 2) Great For Two Years 3) GrrrrrrrrEATT!!! 4) Not So Great 5) Great Because They Think They Are 6) Great Until You Actually Read Them 7) Late, Therefore Great 8) Great Like a Fox 9) Great Because of Who Dislikes Them ----------------- On to Jacques' renunciation of the Calling: my first instinct, a la Mike Magee's, is to slap you in the face with a copy of _The Prelude_ and jam your pencil back in your fist, Jacques, but I won't do that. [Jacques sighs in relief.] People who decide they shouldn't write anymore need to just go in their corner and work it out, whatever it is. If you ultimately decide to go all Laura Riding on us, that's a pity, but only you can say whether that's right for you. What I do want to address is this question of taste, which I do not think is necessarily, pace Mike, "a wholly negative term and concept" or even "obscurantist by nature," but nevertheless not as available an asylum as you make it out to be, Jacques. Back to Mike's comments for a minute. When Clem Greenberg say he simply prefers "good art to bad," he is obviously on one level being a reactionary. I don't mean to underplay the ideological violence going on in this or any other blanket statement of aesthetic absolutes. But he is still voicing a sentiment, with some ironic wit I _think_, about what many tho not all of us feel is a last analysis: art either is or is not good. What makes a difference is whether you take his quote as being actually about the art or about Greenberg himself. If the latter, then it still sounds like the only honest approach to the question of "good" and "bad." Because what are the alternatives? The work's capacity to effect social and political change, as some would suggest? Certainly not, as one can easily imagine a poem that makes the world a better place to live in by inspiring a bunch of kids to go out and build a rec center or something but is nonetheless a real stinker. For example. Is it then the work's adherence to a given set of mechanical rules or formal expectations? For instance, metrical smoothness or general euphoniousness or deftly handled allusions or fineness of tone? If this were the case, all good poetry would just be like Thomas Hardy only more so. I could go on, about art breaking with tradition, or generating critical controversy, or containing certain "tensions," etc., but you can predict how I would dispose of each of these suggestions. What Greenberg's glib remark does is point up to what extent goodness and badness finally resist all attempts at insertion in a criteria-based system. You can either point to this in order to assert that goodness and badness--"taste"--is a destructive concept, as you do, Mike, or you can fall back on it as a handy excuse for throwing up your hands at the state of contemporary writing (which arguably is excessively but incoherently obsessed with demonstrable criteria), as you do, Jacques. But what I'd like to do is resist this divisive set of options if possible. Jacques, you say that "no one takes their own hierarchies of taste for granted anymore"; this would definitely explain why someone like Greenberg looks hopelessly old-fashioned, and also why poetry might look like it's having a personality crisis. But I wonder if "taste" can't survive transplantation into a hierarchically scrambled system. I'm not prepared to map out the details all by myself this afternoon, but one possible model of a context for post-hierarchical taste might involve 1) a negotiation between several discrete factors--e.g., "social relevance," "formal wit," and "sex appeal"--in which the poem manages to satisfy each of these demands in some way; 2) a disarming of the reader's capacity to demonstrate how any one or more of these criteria influence one or more of the others, so that the total poem is capable of pissing off different people for opposite reasons; 3) the potential for the poem to penetrate mainstream channels of circulation in such a way that its transgressive or subversive aspects escape suppression but are nevertheless placed in positions where they can have an effect in some way counter to the motivations of the mainstream agencies who have partly sanctioned the poem. These three considerations boil down to a complex interplay between content, context, and social transmission. I'm sure there are ways to expand/modify/replace this model, but what I want to suggest is that any useful model of taste must account for both the innate qualities of the work itself (which is what the New Criticism did fairly well) and the ways in which the work is received in a dynamic, unstable cultural environment or environments. To privilege either of these considerations at the expense of the other is a mistake. Mike, I love your comments about people's response to language poetry, and I think the ability of that phrase to elicit such comical dread is part of the power of the poetry. The combination of contempt, distrust, and titillation implicit in this attitude is like the Elizabethan stigma surrounding sonneteering ("You write those filthy things? Let me see one.") You say, "the people who hate X or Y poetry/poets do so as a result of *some* process of institutionalization." Absolutely. And the people who _like_ X or Y do so as a result of the same thing. Taste, then, is the navigation of the various institutional corridors within which likes and dislikes are manufactured. This is why your suggestion that "taste" be replaced with a term suggesting "effort" or "ambitious-ness" is helpful, but needs to be supplemented with some means by which to connect the explanation you offer ("I like the poem that does this because...") with an explanation for exactly _how_ the poem "does this," which brings us back to the formal considerations and old aesthetic categories, etc., ad infinitum. "The question of what a poem is designed to do (or in any event what it does) for a poet and her audience" inevitably involves the physical makeup of the poem as well as / in addition to its maker's intentions, and zis is a concern for ze structuralist critic. But ve must _all_ become structuralists, vorking for a society in vhich ze poet is a citizen on par vith ze molecular scientist or ze domestic engineer! Only zen vill ze poet take on ze responsibilities of ze political being she has to become in order for ... for ... um, OK, not sure where I was going there. The point is that taste has to involve considerations of both material craft _and_ imaginary market demands. There. I think "fashion" in the bad-Bourdieu sense is part of this model, actually, and a reason why that ridiculous ABBA poem you resist, Mike, might make its way into the Garden of Taste at some point after all. And there might be a real risk involved in that. Just not yet ... can't ... make ... it ... cohere...! This ties in with Patrick's comments in his response to Jacques, on how "our contemporary culture finds new ways to value crap." If the ABBA poem is to be successful, I think it will somehow have to _include_ the awareness that it is participating in that debased cultural "project," and find a way for its awareness to transform the crap into flowers. It can be done. I'm an optimist. As you say, Patrick, "One needs to be aware of his or her own tastes, but one must also be able to see the range of tastes as well, see ones place in that range. And if a person can do that, and imagine new possibilities for tastes, well, then something very interesting can happen." Right on. I'd only add that one also has to keep one's eye open for ranges of tastes that have been dynamited out of the side of the cultural scene by global capital etc., so that when one moves across those ranges, one always knows what kind of trappers are lying in wait. "Compassion for the old fogeyism" has to include the healthy suspicion that some of those old fogeys are payrolled by Phillip Morris and ain't your good buddies. Also, Patrick, I take seriously your observations about Harvard and institutions in general having a unique capacity for "knowing" certain things; the ways in which "knowlege" is mass-produced is of course directly parallel with the mechanisms of the taste industry. And as you say, it's always a mixed bag. Just because evil corporations manufacture something doesn't always mean we don't need whatever it is. Or just because all the rich guys in Delft helped make Vermeer a genius or whatever doesn't mean he wasn't. Institutional knowledge (or taste) is a commodity like lots else, and can be repackaged, nutritionally enriched, and sold by deadheads at the farmer's market. In other words, political concerns are practically irrelevant to aesthetic value in the sense that they have anything to do with the object itself, but they have to be negotiated nonetheless just to make your way to a safe position for _enjoyment_ or _constructive use_ of said object. [BTW, Patrick, you mentioned Springsteen's "Born in the USA" as an example of Reagan-era propaganda; not that I think that's the greatest song ever written or anything, but just for the sake of accuracy, if you check the lyrics, it's a pretty critical song. Not that it wasn't _received_ exactly as you say by a zillion yahoos in pickup trucks.] Anyway, Jacques, I need to wrap this up, so I want just to question one thing you said, since it's something I think you know I have strong feelings about: how, on any basis soever, can you or anyone claim that O'Hara is inferior to Eliot? This is not a rhetorical question; I'm open to arguments of any kind whatsoever. Control over diction, cultural relevance, tightness of pants, you name it, what on earth makes Eliot so much better a poet than O'Hara? I pose this as an open question to help us sort out our notions of taste by putting them into practice. I want to see claims for either Eliot or O'Hara as the superior poet, and I want to see claims that address the writing itself. I'll reserve my own specific thoughts on the matter till I hear from 20 other people. Suffice to say that, along with Mike, I think, I don't believe for a minute that Shakespeare or Eliot or anyone represents a no-pass zone of greatness, as great as they may be. I _do_ think that Shakespeare and Eliot and Stevens and O'Hara are greater poets than, say, Elinor Wylie or Larry Fagin, so I'm not just pulling a big relativist trip. I just want concrete examples. Thanks to everyone for the recent spate of energetic and thoughtful posts! The list has become very interesting lately. Kasey ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ K. Silem Mohammad Visiting Asst. Prof. of British & Anglophone Lit University of California Santa Cruz _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 15:55:32 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ammonides@AOL.COM Subject: Re: "Giving up": Avant-gardism with a vengeance Comments: cc: jdebrot@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This distressing talk from Jacques Debrot about "giving up" poetry could be related in certain ways to an essay in PMC that was announced here (with enthusiasm, I take it) by Barrett Watten a couple months ago: "Post-Avant-Gardism: Bob Perelman and the Dialectic of Futural Memory," by Joel Nickels. The essay is, in a sense, also about giving up. A central argument in this essay (though I've read only once and incompletely; corrections welcome) is that "difficult," "non-narrative" poets like Perelman, etc. are not writing, really and after all, for present, living readers, but for a future --one presumes more "advanced"-- reading culture to come: The strong "Language" poem, then, according to Nickels, is in some sense like a whisper sent, sub rosa, across time, imbued with a formal-semantic codedness that calls-out to a "futural memory", when and where the poem's present "avant-garde" opacity and fragmention may be, with luck, completed and brought into unbounded view. Like one of those Plain of Nazca drawings, which the flatland of the cultural/somatic moment makes invisible (even to its visionary architect), but which is meant, one day, to be apprehended from an as yet unimaginable "above". So to Mr. Debrot's quirky pessimism and defeatism, I say: Why give up writing poetry altogether, when all you have to do is give up writing for the *present*, and devote your energies, instead, to writing utopian lingual code for future? Ammonides > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 15:59:05 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ammonides@AOL.COM Subject: Straightqueer Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit is the name finally chosen by my son's group. I give them credit. And I doubt very much that they will ever get invited to play at the County Fair. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 03:43:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: 100 NYC poets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed That was a great list, Jim, and you shouldn’t kick yourself. I wanted, though, to add to it, in part as just a kind of "evidence" or whatever of the many & varied younger poets (though what is "younger"? under 30? under 40? 45?), all of whom I’ve read & who have written at least one poem or series or book I was really amazed by. I’m going to limit it to New York poets, or at least poets who I associate for whatever reason with New York, since it’s largely the NY scene that Fagin was dismissing Allison Cobb, who’s written a series of brilliant chapbooks, at least one longer collaborative poem (with Jen Coleman & Chris Putnam), and who is a really fabulous reader Jen Coleman, whose work I know less of, but only because she’s published less of it, though she gave a wonderful reading at Zinc earlier this year (or late last?) Julie Patton, whose poems seem like performances, and whose performances, no two of which are the same, seem like poems, and whose writing is always unexpected, highly torqued, playful & moving Drew Gardner, whose Water Tables is wonderful, & who continues to amaze me in his ability to weave numerous threads (p.o.v.s or systems of knowledge) into play through a single poem (& who is also a great writer of Flarf) Kimberly Lyons, who is one of my favorite NYC poets, & who I suppose is one of the most "New York School" of anyone I’ll mention, though is that even evident reading her amazing Abracadabra? Tod Thilleman, whose A World of Nothing But Nations, a long poem made up of entries made into a (purposely chosen) very small notebook, is still one of my favorite books by a younger NYC poet I think of Stacy Doris as a New York, if not New York School, poet, although she lives most of the time in Paris—anyway, Paramour is as lovely & inventive as it is hilarious I love Brian Kim Stefans’ variousness, his web-poem The Dreamlife of Letters, which completely blew both me & Nada away the day we happened upon it, and especially his book Gulf Lytle Shaw, another poet whose variousness never ceases to amaze & inspire me (these are going to get shorter, as it’s getting late) Adeena Karasick, who’s written a series of absolutely stunning books Siane Ngai & Dan Farrell, who’ve moved to the west coast, but both of whom I saw read here, & loved Rick Snyder, whose poems are smart, sardonic, intense Kevin Davies & Deirdre Kovak--Kevin is, according to one friend, one of Fagin’s favorite younger poets, as well as most of ours, and Deidre is probably the funniest poet I’ve ever read Rodrigo Toscano gave a great reading at Double Happiness earlier this year as did both Kevin Varrone and Pattie McCarthy, at Zinc & the PoProj Sharon Mesmer is outstanding Stephen Paul Miller wrote one of my all-time favorite diatribe poems I’m in envy of Merry Fortune’s edginess Charles Borkhuis is more noir than Bogart Dalies by Tim Davis is one of Nada’s favorite books Carole Mirakove’s Wall is one of mine Joe Elliot is quietly writing fabulous poems while the rest of us bicker on listserves I love Eleana Kim’s "My experience is learning, but not from you" and Joanna Fuhrman’s "In a Little Box" Sue Landers’ little pill book is as brilliant as it is tiny, I cherish both my copies Kenny Goldsmith’s 111 is a ceaseless pleasure & his reading earlier this year at Double Happiness one of the best I’ve ever seen Jen Robinson & Brendan Lorber rewrote each other’s poems, then rewrote the rewrites, & read the same at a fabulous reading at Halcyon several months ago Do you know two more exciting readers than Marcos Villa Lobos or John Coletti? Whenever I see Wendy Kramer read I always feel like the doddering old curmudgeon I am Tracy Blackmer & Brenda Coultas ROCK Edwin Torres is mind-blowing Alissa Quart does not get enough attention Neither do Matthew Rohrer, Kim Rosenfield, Jenny Smith or Douglas Rothschild, whose birthday party I missed tonight, wanting instead to type his name here Betsy Andrews is too smart for her own britches Andrew Levy is not worthy of praise? Nor Rob Fitterman? Laurie Price! Eleni Sikelianos! Laird Hunt! The most surprising & wonderful manuscript of (still unpublished) work I read in 1999 was by Noelle Kocut Oh! the heartache of realizing I’ll never be as groovy as Elinor Nauen nor as astute & funny as Alan Gilbert nor as frank as Regie Cabico nor as wild & perplexing as Sean Killian & Chris Funkhauser Eliot Katz will always look more like a Ramone than me Richard Loranger will always be more personable Oh! why am I not as smart as Melanie Nielson? Why does Katie Degentesh write more searing flarf than me? It isn’t fair! that I wasn’t born Marcella Harb nor Chris Edgar Now, I am rolling around on the floor, typing into my computer with one free finger, because Jeff Derksen has kicked my ass w/his poetry! Now, David Kirschenbaum is kicking me, too, with poems more personally revealing than my own! Michael Scharf has joined in the fray! Head-butting me, to prove the superior size of his cranium & the vast systems of knowledge housed within it! Ouch! No! Stop! Ohhhhh ... in pain ... I reach for ... the keyboard ... but Ethan Fugate shoves his "Shoved in the Statue’s Cleft Chin" into my own chin! ... OW! My face is bloodied, the breath kicked out of me, should I resort to DC & beyond? I’m only up to 63 poets, that’s nothing, why I can name three times that many published by Adventures in Poetry! No, I ... must ... continue ... [cough!] ... [cough! cough!] ... Is Jerome Sala a younger poet or Elaine Equi? No! I must be strong ... brave ... not veer from ... task ... Dan Machlin has arrived to give me a copy of his Glass Owl as well as a list of poets I’ve not yet mentioned, including Brandon Downing! & Gillian McCain & Donna Cartelli! Jo An Wasserman, who’ll be here shortly! The list is endless! Why, here, in brilliant red ink, is the name of Marianne Shaneen, who gave the greatest reading at Teachers & Writers EVER! Oh! ... am struggling now to sit upright ... must list 100 poets in NYC ... Elinor "El" Warner, Peter Neufeld ... Pam Rehm is still in NYC, yes? ... oh ... Heather Ramsdell? ... [cough!] ... screen is blurry now ... fingers numb ... losing "editorial focus" ... [cough!] ... Eileen Tabios moved, but she’s still NYC to me ... [cough! cough!] ... it’s not enough, yet I don’t want to fail ... [cough!] ... can see Ghost Fagin-Head above me, booming: "Gary, that is only 70-something younger poets, why in *my* day .." ... [cough!] ... [cough!] ... Myself! even though my poetry sucks, I’ll never write a book as great as Rhymes of a Jerk ... but how about Martine Bellen! ... [cough!] ... and Lew Daly ... is Geoffrey O’Brien considered young? ... sight completely gone now ... can no longer read spine titles ... is Ron Kohlm too old? ... dear god ... all sight gone now ... feel as though I’m being shoved into $300-a-month rent-controlled apartment ... will lose all perspective now ... no ... must ... crawl back out ... "dig the streets" ... come up with ... [cough!] ... more names ... must press 100 mimeo books tonight then "hang out" with Anne and Ted at 4:00 a.m. ... [cough!] ... must not ... [cough!] ... slip into obscurity ... need more names ... [cough! cough!] .... Feel like Sondheim post now ... won’t recover ... Perloff hates me ... dear god no ... [cough!] ... WHY ARE MY UNDERWEAR DOWN AROUND MY ANKLES??? ... [cough!] ... Elizabeth Fo-COUGH COUGH-dowski! ... I’m losing street-cred ... dear god, no ... Sondheim rub-off ... [cough!] ... Robert Kocick ... SPARROW! ... is David Trinidad too old to mention? ... Ammiel Alcalay? ... Murat Nemet Nejat? ... Tracey Chiang? ... only 90 younger poets mentioned ... must ... get ... 100 ... or ... won’t ... be ... taken ... seriously ... Dear God, THE AMOUNT OF BLOOD STREAMING FROM MY GUMS, EYEBALLS AND EARS IS HORRIFYING!!! ... yet ... must ... continue ... Cliff Fyman? ... I have lost all credibility ... Mike Topp ... am actually dying now ... please god give me eight more names ... Sal Salasin! although I guess he moved, but still ... [cough!] ... I have no emotions left ... eyebrows have flaked off ... chin sagging now ... penis a thin line of drool-like substance between legs ... [cough!] ... Laura Silver! ... does Daniel Kane write poetry? ... [cough!] ... grasping now ... nearly four a.m. ... all feeling in body gone ... all editorial focus dissipated ... shell of self ... can’t write or edit anything but shit now ... crawling reluctantly into grave ... unable to breathe except for bubbles of spit coming from mouth & nostrils ... have soiled self ... locusts laying eggs in thinning hair ... Darlene Gold? ... horrible embarrassing line of "poopy" trailing from anus like famous Kiki Smith art-piece ... can’t ... hold ... head ... "up" ... didn’t Jeff Gburek live in NYC? ... even for five minutes? ... please ... [cough!] ... I need your help! ... I’ll take anything now ... four more names ... any names ... Sam Truitt, isn’t he NYC? ... [cough!] ... that guy that does that magazine ... [cough!] ... I forget the name of it ... shit ... oh, shit ... is Maggie Nelson NYC? ... Carol Szamatowicz? ... lips ... trembling ... have ... exhausted ... self ... brain ... nerves ... can ... only ... collapse ... ohhh ... urghhhhghgh ... mphhghghh ... ngdjflkdjf ... djfaklfjsa .... dfl. . .f s . ..s .s.. . s z . l _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 16:02:27 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: "great"... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" well the thing about olson's "greatness"---and i've always found much in his writings---is that the way it's often been articulated, it seems almost to emanate from the fact that the man himself was kinda, yknow, large... /// joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 23:22:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: claank design Subject: more on editing and cohesive voice In-Reply-To: <128.385746d.28b72b63@aol.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I have been 1/2 monitoring the editing conversation and a thought keeps coming to mind. In practice, how do the numerous editors of a single publication go about reaching for a cohesive vision of what their journal stands for, represents, or chooses to include. Is it only through conversation and/or written mission statements? Are there journals in which poetry editors read the fiction and fiction editors read the poetry? Andrea Baker ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 23:54:26 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Online Poetry Classroom Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Yo, Poetics Civilians: I just stumbled across a site called the Online Poetry Classroom, brought to you, apparently, by the folks who had the bright idea of holding a contest to see which poet could get his or her mug on a U.S. stamp. (Remember what a constructive thread that was?) The URL for this is: http://www.onlinepoetryclassroom.org/ Although some of you will be taken aback, as I was, by links on the side-bar with such headings as "How To Teach" and "What To Teach" (no, unfortunately, I am not making this up), one of the most interesting aspects of this site is the fact that you can link to pages to find your favorite poet and/or poem. I did not have the heart to investigate the latter sampling; however, I am here to tell you that the listing of poets offers an incredibly mixed bag. First of all, of course, there are the usual (academically recognized) suspects, including our own beloved Ashbery, Stein, Williams, & even O'Hara. (The fact that he is apparently not as great as Eliot, according to one M. Perloff, who should know, has apparently not hurt his standing insofar as this web site is concerned). That much is to be expected. Then, of course, there is a sampling of some, academically "hot," & decidedly more experimental poets: Charles Bernstein, Jackson MacLow, Susan Howe & Lyn Hejinian fall under this category, as well as (inexplicably, but happily) Mina Loy, Charles Reznikoff, Lorine Niedecker, & Bernadette Mayer. Then-- VERY inexplicably-- there are also included younger (& very good) poets who are near the beginning of their careers, at least so far as book publications go: Kevin Davies, Stacy Doris & Eleni Sikelianos are the names that I noticed. BUT-- & this is the kicker-- here is the list of names that I came up with (just on one quick read-through) who were EXCLUDED. Tell me if this makes any sense, boys & girls-- Bruce Andrews Paul Blackburn Joseph Ceravolo Jack Collom Clark Coolidge Anselm Hollo P. Inman Harry Mathews Alice Notley Bob Perelman Rod Smith Jack Spicer Chris Stroffolino Anne Waldman Louis Zukofsky Now, my list of names is very arbitrary, I admit; in fact I can already think of poets who weren't included who I should have thought of but didn't; & on closer reflection I'm sure I would make my list a lot broader. That's not the point. (By the way, I include Stroffolino & Smith ONLY because Davies, Doris & Sikelianos are included, & I consider them a representative sampling of poets at least as good as the other three. I love the work of all five, as well as LOADS of other "younger" writers, all of whom I couldn't possibly mention, so PLEASE don't anybody take offense at this, okay?).... But, I DIGRESS-- The whole point of this post (in case you were wondering) is that you can LET THE WEBMASTERS KNOW the names of poets or poems that should be included on their site. This is what I did, with this list; but like I say, there are lots of other poets/poems who should be included, & why should I have all the fun. So, go to this site & let em know what you think. (By the way, let's not start another thread like the poetry stamp thing. Pretty please.) Your Comrade in Arms, Mark DuCharme _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 23:16:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Crag Hill Subject: Now available: SCORE 16: The largeness the small is capable of MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Now available: SCORE 16: The largeness the small is capable of, an anthology of poems five lines or less. Contributors include Robert Grenier, Bob Grumman, Miekal And, Lee Ann Brown, Avery Burns, Joel Lewis, John Martone, Harry Polkinhorn, and over 70 other poets. SCORE MAGAZINE, since 1983, has been singularly devoted to visual/concrete poetry, but starting with this issue it opens its pages to all poetries, verbal through visual. If you would like a copy of SCORE 16 back channel or send $10 to Crag Hill, 1111 E. Fifth St. Moscow, ID 83843. From the editor's intro: the largeness the small is capable of* was sparked by the surge of short poems reaching print starting in the mid-1980s. This surge has not let up as of August 2001. I had to start somewhere; I have to stop somewhere. But there are so many poems five lines or less that should be a part of an anthology of such poems. Of course the short poem was not born in the 1980s - it's a sibling of the epic and had brief, furious life between the World Wars through the Imagist and Objectivist movements - but under the sheer number of poems being written lay the question why so many now? I'm now less interested in answering that question, averse to sociological speculation, but I am interested in showing off the quality, or quiddity, as Liz Was puts it, of the short poem. What I think I found: short poems have the same range as longer forms, the same diversity. And why not? I might even argue that there's more meaning per square foot (iambic or otherwise) in the short poem than other poetic incarnations. Humor is prevalent. Political statement. Surprise endings, turns of phrase. Unabashed punning and other forms of wordplay. Precision in choice of words, in choice of line breaks, in spacing of both. Brevity, yes, but depth too. Instantaneous meaning but also elusiveness. Clarity and opacity. Yet for every characteristic (beside brevity) used to categorize short poems, along came poems to gainsay them. For instance, many of the short poe ms in print before the 1980s succeed essentially in the same ways as lyric poems, but how do Joseph Torra's poems fit into any definition of lyric poetry? G. P. Skratz and others have described short poems as arriving in a divine flash, appearing whole, in need of little alteration, poems born full grown rather than shaped over time by the poet, but in what way are Jeff Conant's poems born in a flash? Some say short poems give up their meaning at once, are immediately accessible. If you need that assumption undermined, go, for one, to Jake Berry's poems. But for all their various, vigorous presences, short poems often seem short-shrifted in literary journals, relegated to filler. As short poems are more susceptible to overcrowding than longer poems -- they need their space - this borders on travesty. But for economic reasons, I, too, am guilty of this travesty. Ideally the poems in this anthology should all have their own page but SCORE, alas, could not afford to print an anthology pushing 400 pages. * Thanks to M. Kettner for the title* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 08:16:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: gene Subject: plath Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed a surfeit of suicides, a plethora of Plath. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 13:26:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - ... i now know my illness consists in _not being anywhere_ ... within me, there is always a vacancy ... as if a thousand motion-picture projectors were all going at once ... as if a thousand screens were dissolving simul- taneously ... always a murmur ... overtaken by what i recognize ... from the distant words of others ... i can turn my head to hear them ... as a sickness, the worst for its defense, taking my _presence_ away from me ... it is as if I have left the body long ago ... not so much of a stage, hardly anything theatrical ... even the projectors run silently, not all of them have film ... cinema, cinema ... _ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 11:05:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Inna Kouper Comments: To: webartery@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just got word that Inna Kouper was able to get her visa signed and will = be in Bloomington, Indiana on Sunday and after. email me bc and I'll = send her email there if anyone is in there area and wants to greet a = Russian visiting poet. tom bell =20 =3D<}}}}}}}}}****((((((((&&&&&&&&&~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Metaphor/Metonym for health at = http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm Black Winds Press at = http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/blackwin.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 14:37:09 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM Subject: New @ Bridge Street: Armantrout, Chain 8, Fitterman, Selected Hollo, 100 Days, Stroffolino essays, &&& MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As always, thanks Poetics, for supporting independent bookselling. Ordering & discount information at the end of this post. 1 _The Pretext_, Rae Armantrout, Green Integer, $9.95. "Is she holding / a grudge / a seance / or a piece of bread" 2 _Bombay Gin #27_, ed Corpuz & Pierce, $10. Friedman, Collom, DuPlessis, Andrews, Coolidge, M Gizzi, Jarnot, Barros Gizzi, Derksen, Robertson, Mullen, edwards, Doris, Swensen, A Berrigan, Hollo, DeSilver, Pustateri, Mlinko, Smith, Bye, Champion, Toscano, Prevallet, Walman, Hunt, Stefens, T Davis, Doto, Neilson, Spahr, P Gizzi, Schelling, Bersenbrugge, Waldrop, &&&. 3 _Student Resistance: A History of the Unruly Subject_, Mark Edelman Boren, Routledge, $19.95. 4 _100 Days_, ed Andrea Brady & Keston Sutherland, Barque Press, $15. An anthology responding to the first baleful 100 days of the Bush administration. Including poetry, prose, articles. cartoons, photographs, drawings. . . a catalogue of dissent and irreparable eloquence. A. Berrigan, Bouchard, Boycoff, Clarke, Cobb, J Davis, Durand, Friedlander, Gardner, Henry, Hollo, Kovac, Liu, Luoma, Milne, Myles, Notley, Ngugi, PIPA, Prevallet, Ratcliffe, Raworth, Riley, Rodefer, Robinson, Sand, Scharf, P Smith, R Smith, Spahr, Sroffolino, Tranter, Treadwell, Upton, Waldman, Willis, & that's only about half of 'em! 5 _Microclimates_, Taylor Brady, Krupskaya, $9. "The 'skeletal bulge' invests an imaginary / frame alone. A vaccine added / to ants' column by ballot, the bugled / shunt of friction, slack." 6 _Politics Out of History_, Wendy Brown, U Cal, $14.95. 7 _Chain #8 / Comics_, ed Spahr, Osman, Sullivan, Zweig, & Greenberg, $12. Allen & Coletti, Anthony, Bagge, Bittner, Brainard & Creeley, Brunetti, Castagna & Torres, Child, Choe, Clark & Hejinian, Corless-Smith & Wagner, Corpuz, Cunningham, Degraff, Durgin, Field, Gardner & Sullivan, Hillman & Lerner, Hocquard & Valery, Iijima, Jullich, Katchor, Larsen, Mirakove, Neufeld & Walker, Padgett, Qureshi, Scalapino, Silvers, &&&. 8 _Propaganda and the Public Mind_, Noam Chomsky, Interviews by David Barsamian, South End, $16. 9 _Pure Immanence: Essays on a Life_, Gilles Deleuze, Zone, $24. 10 _Metropolis 1-15_, Robert Fitterman, Sun & Moon, $11.95. Winner, New American Poetry Competition, selected by Bruce Andrews. "the dead lose / their defenses / that's been my experience" 11 _Suites_, Frederico Garcia Lorca, trans Jerome Rothenberg, Green Interger, $12.95. "Full of scars / & fast asleep. / And full of spirals, / signs. " 12 _Foriegnn Bodie_, Nada Gordon, Detour, $10. "i agree, / the cocoon was a success" 13 _Notes on the Possibilities and Attractions of Existence: Selected Poems 1965-2000_, Anselm Hollo, Coffee House, $17.95. "goodbye expensive time / say the murmurous measurers" 14 _Ezra Pound and African American Modernism_, ed Micahel Coyle, National Poetry Foundation, $19.95. Essays on Pound's relation to Cullen, Hughes, Tolson, & others by Lindberg, Doreski, Gill, & Dasenbrock. Essays on African American presences in Pound's work by Marsh, Nielsen, Hatlen, and Young. 15 _The Poems of Laura Riding_, Laura (Riding) Jackson, Persea, $19.95. A newly revised edition of the 1938/1980 collection. "And let the reach of love surround us / With the warm accusation of being poets." 16 _Power, Politics, and Culture: Interviews with Edward W. Said_, Pantheon, $30. 17 _America: A History in Verse: Volume 2, 1940-1961_, Edward Sanders, Black Sparrow, $17. 18 _Spin Cycle: Selected Essays and Reviews 1989-1999_, Chris Stroffolino, Spuyten Duyvil, $16. Poets addressed include Shakespere, Shapiro, Moxley, S Killian, Rehm, Raworth, Moriarty, Hunt, Ross, Ransom, Lansing, Tate, Harryman, Yau, (Riding) Jackson, Godfrey, Coolidge, Watten, Byrd, & others. "This is a unique and extremely valuable work of criticism. It is the first work I know to recognize the gulf between established contemporaries, about whom many of us write, and other, usually younger writers, who have much greater claims to be capturing what might count as 'contemporaneity.'" --Charles Altieri 19 _Such Rich Hour_, Cole Swensen, Iowa, $16. "So they flayed (picture it) / him alive" 20 _On Belief_, Slavoj Zizek, Routledge, $12.95. Recent Bestsellers: _Ancestors_, Kamau Brathwaite, $35. _Again: Poems 1989-2000_, Joanne Kyger, La Alameda Press, $16. _Talking_, David Antin, Dalkey Archive, $12.50. _Ogress Oblige_, Dorothy Trujillo Lusk, Krupskaya, $9. _M/E/A/N/I/N/G: An Anthology of Artists' Writings, Theory, & Criticism_, ed Bee & Schor, Duke, $22.95. _The Weather_, Lisa Robertson, New Star, $12. _Everybody's Autonomy: Connective Reading and Collective Identity_, Juliana Spahr, $24.95. _Goan Atom_, Caroline Bergvall, Krupskaya, $9. _Argento Series_, Kevin Killian, Krupskaya, $9. _Anarchy_, John Cage, Wesleyan, $25. _New American Writing 19: Special Section on Clark Coolidge_, $!0. _Drawn & Quartered_, Robert Creeley, Granary, $15.95. _Push the Mule_, John Godfrey, Figures, $12.50. _Genders, Races, and Religious Cultures in Modern American Poetry 1908-1934_, Rachel Blau DuPlessis, Cambridge, $22.95. _Leaving Lines of Gender: A Feminist Genealogy of Language Writing_, Ann Vickery, $24.95. _Surrealist Painters & Poets: An Anthology_, ed Mary Ann Caws, $49.95. _Crayon 3_, ed Andrew Levy & Bob Harrison, $16. _A Menorah for Athena: Charles Reznikoff and the Jewish Dilemmas of Objectivist Poetry_, Stephen Fredman, $16.95. _vocoder_, Judith Goldman, Roof, $10.95 _Joe Brainard: A Retrospective_, Constance M. Lewallen, $29.95. _On the Nameways Volume 2_, Clark Coolidge, $12.50. _Lip Service_, Bruce Andrews, $22.95. _The Annotated 'Here' and Selected Poems_, Marjorie Welish, $14.95. _The Beginner_, Lyn Hejinian, Spectacular Books, $6. _The Lake_, Hejinian & Clark, Granary, $19.95. _Comp._, Kevin Davies, $12.50. _Manifesto: A Century of Isms_, ed Mary Ann Caws, $35. _Earliest Worlds_, Eleni Sikelianos, Coffee House, $14.95. _Imagining Language: An Anthology_, ed. Jed Rasula and Steve McCaffery, MIT, $29.95. _The Battlefield Where the Moon Says I Love You, Frank Stanford, $18. _Ring of Fire_, Lisa Jarnot, Zoland, $13. _New Mannerist Tricycle_, Jarnot, Luoma, & Smith, $8. _amounts. to._, P. Inman, Potes & Poets, $9. _Indivisible: A Novel_, Fanny Howe, $11.95. _The Big Lie_, Mark Wallace, $7.50. _The Language of Inquiry_, Lyn Hejinian, $17.95. _The Sonnets_, Ted Berrigan, intro & notes by Alice Notley, $16. _Means without End: Notes on Politics_, Giorgio Agamben, $17.95. Poetics folks receive free shipping on orders of more than $20. Free shipping + 10% discount on orders of more than $30. There are two ways to order. 1. E-mail your order to aerialedge@aol.com with your address & we will bill you with the books. or 2. via credit card-- you may call us at 202 965 5200 or e-mail aerialedge@aol.com w/ yr add, order, card #, & expiration date & we will send a receipt with the books. We must charge shipping for orders out of the US. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 17:11:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: m&r...avant-dialect-memory... x,000's of yrs of solitude later...i can't make out why the postings-dialogues-responses-reposte on this list are invariably couched in an essay form...e-chat is a hybrid with no set rules...why go backwards... poetry is discussed in many forums...quickly after a reading.."howdyalikeit.."...'it sucked".......slowly after the third beer later that night..."howdyalikeit"..."i'm goin' to the john'...in the gutter" so what do you really think of eliot & pound"..."those mother.f...anti-semitic s.o.b.'s..." each of these are more than a valid form of crit...if those you that must essay it out could just forget your day jobs for a sec...maybe we could go where no man or woman has gone before in this ricketty racketty rocke.....DRn... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 17:45:29 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: Democratic taste w/ digressions (part 1) Comments: To: mmagee@dept.english.upenn.edu, immerito@hotmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit *Frank O'Hara. Slightly Unfair Digression 1* More than anything he ever actually wrote, it was a dune buggy on a beach in Fire Island that launched Frank O'Hara as a p-o-e-t. Otherwise, he would eventually have shared, w/ Larry Rivers (good bad boy & O'Hara's symbiotic partner in art) unfashionable associations w/ white negroism, homosexual anxiety, art heroism, Day-Glo existential hipsterism, and uptown/downtown 2-timing; in tabloidese: **50s Enfant Terrible Outflanked by Woodstock and Warhol**. In fact almost everyone--including you, Mike, in yr brilliant dissertation--writes about O'Hara from a biographical perspective. Which is perfectly cool w/ me--I do it myself in my own dissertation--but that's because O'Hara's work & ethic tends to cancel out the relevancy of the PhD toolchest that privileges theory over experience. *Democratic Taste 1* a. I admit that so-called high art is always to some extent *about* the context of exclusivity. My conscience here is Dave Hickey whose objections to the fetishization of high culture--as providing occassions for *mastery*--are a lot more persuasive than the ones I've read so far from the Poetics List. So I'm in the weird position of disagreeing in important respects (though not, I hope, in spirit) w/ my favorite cultural critic. b. Still, something like Jim's nominalistic vodoo of naming 100 younger poets, & consequently, by the very act of their being named by him, becoming writers "doing impt work," is dumb in a way that's becoming almost fatally & complacently routine--remember Silliman's naming 160 poets in _The Art of Practice_? If Silliman had read 100 pages of work by each of these poets he would have to have read 16,000 pages--almost all of it uncollected at the time he was writing (and perhaps still is). More likely he (& Jim) had only seen a few poems by most of the poets they list. The 160 poets named have pretty much only each other for an audience, I'm afraid. And that audience is getting smaller all the time apparently (down now to only 100). c. 1. there is such a thing essentially as aesthetic experience which is not merely a false universality based on contingent class, gender, or race interests (or adequately accounted for in terms of psychology, morality, economics, or politics. 2. judgements do take place all the time--they are unaviodable, in fact-- despite the absence of universal criteria. 3. Aesthetic judgement is not impossible if tradition, instead of being viewed in any absolute sense, is seen instead as the site of a **conflict** whose aim is the search for legitimation. 4. intuition is involuntary in our aesthetic responses. *Frank O'Hara. Digression 2* Not only is Eliot a more interesting writer than O'Hara, but O'Hara never wrote anything nearly as innovative as Merrill's _Sandover_, or Berryman's _Dream Songs_. *Democratic Taste 2* 5. **Our aesthetic response, as Greenberg argues, requires the commitment of our whole person**. --to be continued perhaps, or not. Jacques ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 18:37:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: m&r..re Ashber(r)y... re... Even if you add an (r) the(r)e's no mistaking that Ashberry is our greatest living poet. Adept, quick as the jumping bean verbal gymanast on the invisible trampoline.....a Vallejo of our malled landscrape. The ordinary tense in a dream time of aborign. jumble. sideburns and half shadow of O'hara..the lavender tied rumanian Judge gives him a 9.5..."am i forgetting/ any thing"..No lead the way...butter knife jungle...cribbage solistice......Harry Nudel... p.s...Drn is recovering nicely from his recent Nervous breakdown..thanks for all the cards and get-well wishes..i'm sure hel'll be up and around and hims ole self any day now...double/your/pleasure/double/yr/ fun..Harry N.. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 22:11:48 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Straightqueer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit straightqueer sounds sufficiently "cool" (a word that's still used by my kids!) ...my daughters' band they call The Nudie Suits but the music they play I can actually listen to: its not all bang bang bang thumpa thumpa music...but anycase Straightqueer is also very Postmodern as well as vaguely Avant garde and Wildean but god save us not too Langpoian: its a trifle Curnowian but not Taylorian as in "Richard" as I never listen to much music apart from Bach's well Tempered Clavier and Mozart's Requiem with a dash of Stochausen or Varese now and again....but its very multivocal and oxymoronilogical and all those long words.... Glad to send this enormously incisive and informative contribution to you etal. richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 7:59 AM Subject: Straightqueer > is the name finally chosen by my son's group. > > I give them credit. And I doubt very much that they will ever get invited to play at the County Fair. > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 13:47:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: flay MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - flay of the richness and dullness of the tropics: stone eaten alive "the standard inscription no longer holds "in relation" - substitution remains far too simple: ef tho richnoss und dallnoss ef tho trepics: steno outon ulivo "tho stundurd inscriptien ne lengor helds "in rolutien" - sabstitatien romuins fur tee simplo: something impossible "to get away with" - decay breaking down "in a manner dissimilar" to chaos - there is no return: noise seeps: the dullness and lack of memory of the tropics: of the very swamp of tha richnass enb bullnass of tha tropics: stona aetan eliva "tha stenberb inscription no longar holbs "in raletion" - sudstitution rameins fer too simpla: af tho richnoss unb bellnoss af tho trapics: stano outon ulivo "tho stunburb inscriptian na langor halbs "in rolutian" - sedstitetian romuins fur taa simplo: somathing impossidla "to gat ewey with" - bacey draeking bown "in e mennar bissimiler" to cheos - thara is no raturn: noisa saaps: tha bullnass enb leck of mamory of tha tropics: of tha vary swemp not even violence to the text - premises of decoding and its problematic - "the absent body" - erasure - lassitude - oj the rgchness and dullness oj the tropgcs: stone eaten algve "the standard gnscrgptgon no lonier holds "gn relatgon" - substgtutgon remagns jar too sgmple: ej tho rgchnoss und dallnoss ej tho trepgcs: steno outon ulgvo "tho stundurd gnscrgptgen ne lenior helds "gn rolutgen" - sabstgtatgen romugns jur tee sgmplo: somethgni gmpossgble "to iet away wgth" - decay breakgni down "gn a manner dgssgmglar" to chaos - there gs no return: nogse seeps: the dullness and lack oj memory oj the tropgcs: oj the very swamp oj tha rgchnass enb bullnass oj tha tropgcs: stona aetan elgva "tha stenberb gnscrgptgon no loniar holbs "gn raletgon" - sudstgtutgon ramegns jer too sgmpla: aj tho rgchnoss unb bellnoss aj tho trapgcs: stano outon ulgvo "tho stunburb gnscrgptgan na lanior halbs "gn rolutgan" - sedstgtetgan romugns jur taa sgmplo: somathgni gmpossgdla "to iat ewey wgth" - bacey draekgni bown "gn e mennar bgssgmgler" to cheos - thara gs no raturn: nogsa saaps: tha bullnass enb leck oj mamory oj tha tropgcs: oj tha vary swemp not even vgolence to the text - premgses oj decodgni and gts problematgc - "the absent body" - erasure - lassgtude - frenzy of the noon - sleeping _ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:38:00 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: acker, bataille, etc. Comments: To: mmagee@dept.english.upenn.edu, immerito@hotmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/24/01 10:46:01 AM, belladodie@EARTHLINK.NET writes: << Excess is very important in much female writing as a transgressive strategy, such as Kathy Acker. >> & you can of course add yr own work to the list of excess as a transgressive strategy, Dodie. But why are so few transgressive or pornological gestures really riveting, humbling, or disturbing? Hickey argues that beauty makes the transgressive *persuasive*--that it's as *celebration* rather than as *critique* that transgression achieves a real rhetorical acuity. **One of the problems w/ devaluing aesthetic experience in the way that I'm trying to use the term is that Kasey and Mike would really leave the status quo in tact. It's not that you can't find beauty even in LP, but that, w/out something like the involuntariness of intuition in aesthetic experience and the imaginative exertion demanded of *individuals* to account for that experience, art becomes merely a form of institutionalized knowledge and control--a question of other people's knowing what's best for you--& w/ a roughly parallel agenda to the one K & M say they deplore. P.S. I think it matters too that you were talking about novelists, Dodie. The novel can do almost anything. It's subsumed poetry in a sense (Edmund Wilson made this observation more than 40 years ago in Axel's Castle). & it's the only genre in which there isn't a huge gulf between popular and elite efforts--difficult novels constantly turn up on bestseller lists. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:58:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Silem Mohammad" Subject: great / hard / sad Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed It's good, hard and sad together!!! It's hard, good and sad together!!! It's sad, hard and good together!!! It's good, sad and hard together!!! It's hard, sad and good together!!! It's sad, good and hard together!!! The story is great and the movie is also great!!!!! The story is hard and the movie is also hard!!!!! The story is sad and the movie is also sad!!!! The story is great and the movie is also hard!!!!! The story is hard and the movie is also great!!!!! The story is sad and the movie is also hard!!!! The story is great and the movie is also sad!!!!! The story is hard and the movie is also sad!!!!! The story is sad and the movie is also great!!!! The story is hard and the movie is also great!!!!! The story is great and the movie is also great!!!!! The story is sad and the movie is also hard!!!! The story is hard and the movie is also hard!!!!! The story is great and the movie is also hard!!!!! The story is sad and the movie is also sad!!!! The story is hard and the movie is also sad!!!!! The story is great and the movie is also sad!!!!! The story is sad and the movie is also great!!!! The story is sad and the movie is also great!!!!! The story is sad and the movie is also sad!!!!! The story is sad and the movie is also hard!!!! The last part is also the best, because then the real story is revealed. The best part is also the last, because then the real story is revealed. The last part is also the last, because then the real story is revealed. The best part is also the best, because then the real story is revealed. Sometimes it is difficult to understand, but when you watch further, you understand. Sometimes it is not difficult to understand, but when you watch further, you understand. Sometimes it is difficult to understand, but when you watch further, you do not understand. Sometimes it is not difficult to understand, but when you watch further, you do not understand. [Treated Review of M. Night Shyamalan's _Unbreakable_ on the Internet Movie Database by Rafael (mail_raffie@yahoo.com), Wormerveer, Holland] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ K. Silem Mohammad Visiting Asst. Prof. of British & Anglophone Lit University of California Santa Cruz _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:16:39 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Wystan Curnow (FOA ENG)" Subject: Re: Why I was a bad poet (was: greatness; editors, editing, etc.) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" dear jacques, this is the passage--typically he rehearses it several times in the article--from 'Who's Afraid of Red, Yellow, Blue,' "We must now turn back to this two questions which occupy a historically symmetrical position on either side of Newman's challenge ('Who's Afraid ...etc, 1969, the de Duve essay is, and the date IS significant, 1983; when is Danto's book published?). The first abstract painters asked themselves 'does painting still have a past?' and they addressed their question to the future. This means that the pioneers of abstraction had their tradition ahead of them, whereas we have it behind us. They are not yet "Modernists" and we no longer are." This it seems to me a useful way in which to cast the post-modern question--which is what I take you to be posing, jacques. Tradition is now back in its usual place, but our relation to it is still compromised, or peculiar because of the modernist inversion, which (and others I think)read as a trap. Our discussion of 'taste' or 'greatness' on the other hand is a symptom of this peculilarity, it is about whether there is/should be 'a tradition', and directs us towards an re-analysis of tradition derived from our unique relation to modernism. wystan -----Original Message----- From: Jacques Debrot [mailto:JDEBROT@AOL.COM] Sent: Friday, 24 August 2001 4:01 p.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Why I was a bad poet (was: greatness; editors, editing, etc.) Hey Jim, Wystan, Jim--it's humiliating to be called Pierre after we've been out drinking 1/2 a dozen times together & you've published me in _canihaveyr_. . . . But I do tend to be socially recessive, so I think I can understand. Anyway here's what I think about yr posts. Fagin's poetry, to my mind, isn't any better than the best poetry being written right now--often by people in their 20s (though a lot of the time I don't know how old the poets are who write the poems I like). In fact, I almost always find tons of things to enjoy in the poetry zines I pick up. What Fagin--& what the other poets of his generation--are expressing, I think, is the feeling that they've been passed over w/out having been given their shot. Do they deserve that? For me--make up yr own mind--there's a drop-off immediately after the 1st gen NY School. & it tracks closely w/ the decline in the cultural status of poetry. But that doesn't start in the 1960s--as Perloff said someplace recently (& I agree w/ her), O'Hara ain't no T.S. Eliot. So as to which gen of epigones is superior--yrs or Fagin's--who knows? Apart from the my vs. yr generational tenor of his comments I think that he's pretty sharp about the derivativeness of the kinds of things you'll see in the NYC zines. Ok--so if I say you should aspire to write as well as Stevens & Eliot--or let's get even more ridiculous--Shakespeare, Milton, Keats, Dante, etc.--how could you do it? YOU CAN'T. The instrument's broken. Why should artistic genres have an infinite lifespan? When Fagin says that the payoff for writing poetry is inconsequential, I tend to believe him. Jim, do you think that by yr generational logic yr poetry is going to get the shot at some wider attention than his got? I think it's maybe better to think for oneself than to think for one's generation (an impossibe burden). That's how to begin at least to talk honestly to oneself about art--something tremendously difficult to do. Wystan, Polke is for me still a terrific & inspiring artist--my problem was that i made too easy analogies across generic boundaries. Greenberg thru de Duve is as you know an interest of mine. & my end of poetry rants track w/ danto's end of art screeds to some extent. Maybe we can flesh this out sometime if it interests you. --jacques ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:39:41 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Wystan Curnow (FOA ENG)" Subject: Re: Why I was a bad poet (was: greatness; editors, editing, etc.) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" dear jacques, and further to my other point. Giving up poetry is not the same as giving up literature, so if you aren't going to write poetry, what are you writing is the question? Or, is it really literature one gives up on? and so, with de Duve on my mind still: he makes a distinction between painting--which may be dead--and generic art, which may have replaced it, via minimalism. Initially via Duchamp. Can we say that L= poetry is generic literature? Writing as opposed to poetry? Wystan -----Original Message----- From: Jacques Debrot [mailto:JDEBROT@AOL.COM] Sent: Friday, 24 August 2001 4:01 p.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Why I was a bad poet (was: greatness; editors, editing, etc.) Hey Jim, Wystan, Jim--it's humiliating to be called Pierre after we've been out drinking 1/2 a dozen times together & you've published me in _canihaveyr_. . . . But I do tend to be socially recessive, so I think I can understand. Anyway here's what I think about yr posts. Fagin's poetry, to my mind, isn't any better than the best poetry being written right now--often by people in their 20s (though a lot of the time I don't know how old the poets are who write the poems I like). In fact, I almost always find tons of things to enjoy in the poetry zines I pick up. What Fagin--& what the other poets of his generation--are expressing, I think, is the feeling that they've been passed over w/out having been given their shot. Do they deserve that? For me--make up yr own mind--there's a drop-off immediately after the 1st gen NY School. & it tracks closely w/ the decline in the cultural status of poetry. But that doesn't start in the 1960s--as Perloff said someplace recently (& I agree w/ her), O'Hara ain't no T.S. Eliot. So as to which gen of epigones is superior--yrs or Fagin's--who knows? Apart from the my vs. yr generational tenor of his comments I think that he's pretty sharp about the derivativeness of the kinds of things you'll see in the NYC zines. Ok--so if I say you should aspire to write as well as Stevens & Eliot--or let's get even more ridiculous--Shakespeare, Milton, Keats, Dante, etc.--how could you do it? YOU CAN'T. The instrument's broken. Why should artistic genres have an infinite lifespan? When Fagin says that the payoff for writing poetry is inconsequential, I tend to believe him. Jim, do you think that by yr generational logic yr poetry is going to get the shot at some wider attention than his got? I think it's maybe better to think for oneself than to think for one's generation (an impossibe burden). That's how to begin at least to talk honestly to oneself about art--something tremendously difficult to do. Wystan, Polke is for me still a terrific & inspiring artist--my problem was that i made too easy analogies across generic boundaries. Greenberg thru de Duve is as you know an interest of mine. & my end of poetry rants track w/ danto's end of art screeds to some extent. Maybe we can flesh this out sometime if it interests you. --jacques ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 21:34:11 -0600 Reply-To: Mary Angeline Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mary Angeline Subject: How/Stuttering/Where MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable dear List, Where can I find the source for S.Howe offering Billy Budd as evidence = of stuttering quality in American Poetic ? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 18:08:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: Re: greatness, lateness, out-of-dateness [THURL RAVENSCROFT] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "K.Silem Mohammad" wrote: > Some other possible categories: > . . . . . . > 3) GrrrrrrrrEATT!!! --------------------------------------------------------------- In a recent, unpublished, work-in-progress, ongoing e-mail collaboration between Geoffrey Cruickshank-Hagenbuckle and Jeffrey Jullich (School of Jeffries [currently recruting, Geoffrey Gatza])--- the opening word leads to an immediate footnote (true fact, Information Age poetry FN), as follows: ALPHABESTIARY Grrrr!* Eat Kellogg's Frosted Flakes from sty trough as if eyeless in Tangiers you jumped wet bones, or came out of Marie Antoinette toilette, unbuttoned pearls. ................................. *(NOTE: Thurl Ravenscroft, the voice of "Tony The Tiger" on Kellogg's Frosted Flakes commercials: 1937: The Sportsmen Quartet on the Jack Benny Show; 1942-7: Air Transport Command navigator, flew Bob Hope to Casablanca for USO X-Mas show; as part of The Mellomen, sang Zorro theme song; voice of The Grinch; etc., etc.) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 06:47:53 -0700 Reply-To: yan@pobox.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: matvei yankelevich Subject: matvei's book & yelena's play Comments: To: ugly.duckling@pobox.com Comments: cc: Armand Ruhlman ABC No Rio series , "Magdalena Alagna (host@Proletkult, lotus club poetry)" , Flying Bridge Aviatrix Reading Series , "Maggie Balistreri (Cafe Mo/pink pony poetry))" , James W Barbosa , Jim Behrle , St Marks Bookshop , editors Burning Press , Buttonwood Tree , Cornelia Street Cafe Poetry Series , Amanda Clovis Press , Crowd Magazine , Crowd Magazine , "Sarah (Rita's Friend) Dixon Place Reading Series" , Brandon Downing , Stephen Clair GOOD WORLD READINGS , Andrey Gritsman , Brendan Lorber LUNGFULL , Mike Magazinnik , "Marlene Vidibor, host Pheonix Poetry Series" , "Melissa Ozawa, Ed, American Poet" , Ear Inn poetry , coordinator Poetry Central , Melinda Levokove poetry host , Jane Preston Poetry House Collection , Cristin O'Keefe Aptowicz poetry NYC URBANA , The Poetry Project , Meghan Cleary Poetry Reading bwn AB , Billl Duke host Poetry Saturn Series , Seventh Coming Poetry Series , "(brett) poetry societu" , "Margery Snyder Bob Holman poetry.about.com" , "Faith Vicinanza Poetry@Bethel Arts Junction" , Academy of Poets , The Tribes Poets , "coordinator poetz.com" , The Poetry Project , "Tom O. Proletkult, Lotus Club Reading Series" , Brooks at THE READ bookstore , Thermal Dynamic Reading Project , Small Press Center , Miles Bellamy SpoonbillSugartown Booksellars , Viviana Grell host The Poetry Beat reading series , Marisa Simon Wordsmiths at Halcyon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii This is a small invitation for YOU and your guest(s) to the book release party for my book ________Writing in the Margin___________ on next Wednesday, August 29th, starting at 8pm. At SIBERIA BAR, in the BASEMENT. (ACE to 42nd, exit 40th St,, Walk west down 40th to 9th. Just before the corner on the left you'll see several black doors. Choose one. And descend.) The occassion is also the publication of Craig Foltz's book, ____The Barbecue Killers____, both books from LOUDMOUTH COLLECTIVE. Both authors will be present and shall read from their work and tell anecdotes and drink with you. AND AND AND AND AND AND AND AND AND AND AND AND this is your VERY LAST CHANCE to see something out of this world: School for Salomes. Very different from the work-in-progress version at chashama in july. I highly recomend Yelena's play in the Fringe Festival. The last days are this saturday at noon and at 2pm on Sunday. Here's your small invitation to the 2nd incarnation of SCHOOL FOR SALOMES, a science project created by Yelena Gluzman Aimee Phelan Alice Pan Suzula Rose Melody Bates Jen Warfel Krassin Iordanov Nathaniel Farrell Greg Ford Terry Gibson Oleg & Dima Dubson Rachel Nelson Janna Gjesdal and Patrick Roetzel A word of caution: our tag line is, "IT WILL MAKE YOU WANT TO SCRATCH YOUR SKIN OFF." It plays as part of the Fringe Festival, at Theater for the New City - The Cino Theater (at 1st Ave just below 10th St) and there are six itchy performances. Sunday (today!) at 2:30 and 8:15 next Friday (Aug 24) at 3 and 8 Saturday (Aug 25) at 12noon and Sunday (Aug 26) at 2pm. Tickets cost $12, purchased through the Fringe People 420-8877, or at the venue 15 minutes before the show. ===== Matvei Yankelevich ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ugly duckling presse yan@pobox.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~ 112 Pioneer Street 718-243-0446 ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Brooklyn, NY 11231 ~~~~~~~~~~~www.UglyDucklingPresse.org~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ & for more info on UDP's essential mission see an interview at the following link: http://insound.com/insoundoff/index.cfm?id=127=1 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 09:56:19 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alicia Cohen Subject: audio video MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched Hello all, does anyone know where I can get copies of those black and white early video era NPB poetry series documentaries about Olson, Duncan, Zukofsky and others? What is the deal with the SF poetry center archive? I can't find a listing (on their website) of what they have available to rent/sell --and they don't respond to email. Alicia ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 14:24:02 -0500 Reply-To: archambeau@hermes.lfc.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Archambeau Organization: Lake Forest College Subject: Denise Duhamel contact info MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Can anyone backchannel me Denise Duhamel's email address? Thanks, Bob Archambeau ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 11:57:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: owner-realpoetik@SCN.ORG Subject: RealPoetik Notes RealPoetik discovers the new issue of Coyote Magazine is now online; with the work of Tony Diaz, Naomi Shihab Nye, Diane Gonzales Bertrand, Sarah Cortez, Ethriam Cash Brammer, Kenji Sinatori and an interview with writer Dagoberto Gilb, author of "Woodcuts of Women; Also, witness the amazing art of Misha Gordin. In the future, look for interviews with Junot Diaz, Michelle Sierros, Danil Chacon, Gary Soto, and many many more. href="http://www.radamesortiz.homestead.com">http://www.radamesortiz.homestead.com THE POETRY SUPER HIGHWAY WEEKLY VIRTUAL UPDATE (always something happening here!) Quick pre-update tidbits: special time, MONDAY NIGHT, 9pm (pacific) featuring poetry, sounds, and observations recorded in LONDON during the last couple of weeks. Go to http://PoetrySuperHighway.com/urbanfunk for listening instructions. http://PoetrySuperHighway.com/ http://PoetrySuperHighway.com/urbanfunk The newly renovated Tim W. Brown home page is now ready for prime time. The latest incarnation loads faster than ever before and features a dedicated domain name. Visit Tim W. Brown Online at: http://www.timwbrown.com/ Subject: daisy & jim @ the fringe The Philadelphia Fringe Festival Presents GUTS A Poetry Reading by Daisy Fried MEN IN LOVE A Comic Prose/Poem/Play of Wildwood, NJ by Jim Quinn (with Melissa Backes, Daisy Fried, Rich Kaufmann, Don Riggs**, Amy Smith) Sunday, Sept. 2 @ 5 p.m Friday, Sept. 7 @6:30 p.m. Gallery Fringe 213-215 New St. (betw. 2nd & 3rd Sts. just north of the Ben Franklin Bridge) $5.00* *tickets available at National Showroom 113-131 N. 2nd St., 215.413.1318, www.pafringe.org, or at the door **Also catch Don Riggs and Lynn Levin^s fringe poetry show, Sun. 9/9 at 6:30 p.m. and Wed. 9/12 at 9:30 p.m., same venue and price as ours. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:09:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: owner-realpoetik@SCN.ORG Subject: RealPoetik Aaron Belz Aaron Belz is from St. Louis, recently read at the Ear Inn in NYC, and can be reached at aaron@belz.net. OX DAY It is said that the Ox day is suitable for broiling eels. UZAKU broiled eel, thinly sliced cucumber, and wakame seaweed marinated in rice vinegar (very refreshing!).........$4.50 o - o - o - o - o In EDO period, there was HARUKIYA ZENBEI at an eel shop in Kanda. On a summer day, TOUDOU who was a daimyo, placed an order with him for a lot of broiled eels. So, he kept on broiling eels for three days (the Rat, the Ox and the Tiger), and he put them into an earthenware pot on each day. BEAT A HEAD FIRS T, AND PIERCE WITH A SKEWER. CUT EELS IN 2 PIESE FROM THE BACK USING A KITC HEN KNI FE. "What's a daimyo anyway?" The word daimyo is Japanese from "dai," meaning "great" and "myo," part of the word for a private field. Transliterate, therefore, as "great field." TAKE THE LIVER A ND THE B ONE. WHEN G RILL IT, SO AS NOT TO BECOME ROUND, CU T A BODY. On the appointment day, he took out the broiled eel from the pot. Then, the eel broiled on the Rat and the Tiger day discolored and tasted bad, but the eel broiled on the Ox day didn't change. o - o - o - o - o Mr Vinning chuckled and sipped his sake. He said a knowledge of festivals and customs gave exporters an indication of where to direct their marketing efforts. He said that these festivals are often a lot longer and more refreshing than western celebrations, extending food export opportunities. "For example, at Chinese New Year there is a tradition of conspicuous refreshment, with very high demand at four and five star hotels. Fish is also in demand during the new year as a show of wealth," Mr Vinning intoned knowledgeably. "As a fish exporter it would make sense to target these hotels just before and during the festival." "Some festivals are very refreshing! On Ox-Day in China everyone eats eels -- this could be a niche opportunity for an exporter." Mr. Vinning folded up his chart and looked out at the ocean. o - o - o - o - o So it is said that the Ox day is suitable for broiling eels. (very refreshing!) CLUES FOR SWIMMERS Narrow down the bears until they are half or three quarters a cup of coffee. Then, add anvils. STARBUCKS I love people, and what working at Starbucks has allowed me to do is get involved in people's lives. FLICKERS Everybody loves flickers because (a) they eat ants, (b) have hollow bones and (c) minimal cartilage, (d) dive majestically, (e) enrage other birds, (f) have brightly colored feathers, and (g) go gracefully into the sunset. Aaron Belz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 05:31:10 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: e-mail address for Edwin Torres MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cheers everyone! If anyone knows Edwin Torres' e-mail address, I'd very much appreciate a backchannel. I'm working out the 2001-2002 Visiting Writers Program at SUNY Farmingdale and I'm considering putting him on the program if he's available and willing. Edwin has read for us in the past. Our students loved him. Thanks. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 08:35:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: m&r.....re Ashber(r)y...re.... Manchurian Candidate: if you woke up tomorrow morning and taught nothing but Rod McKuen..this whole academic year..what would your chances of tenure be... Manchurian Candidate: izzy "three-eyed" perlmutter..the avante-garde poetry librarian of the Hebron settler community...has contacted me with an urgent request for more avant...they'll pay postage....the young uns ,pre teens, are particularly dying for Clark Coolidge.. Manchurian Candidate: he woke up confused blnd/site...good/bad....afro/crew cut...there were voices in his head...on Z-17 where the computer had just in-based chewed out and trans. all the poetry of thar far a way 21 cent. into a babel of billions of e.t. lang-po...who is the 101st po under 40... Manchurian Candidate: that voice voices your hear is not u..the voice of the great tradition implodding...the next day he shredded all his frosh comp papers the composte became the basis for the collage that got him an Ingram-Merrill.."like holding urine in yr mouth" Manchurian Candidate: the time bomb that is lang....bang a bang...the real trick is not to shoot at the one you're aiming for but to 'hit' it anyway................DRs...N.... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:25:15 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mariana Ruiz Firmat Subject: Re: 100 NYC poets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I could add a few to the list myself Edmund Berrigan's work is strange and devestating. Karen Weiser writes poems that are beautiful, sublime, sad music. Brenda Bordofsky's work to quote is "violently beautiful." Anslem Berrigan keeps me in tears and in laughter simultaneously. Greg Fuchs blinds me with his humor, politics and vast understanding of humanity in this shady world. And John Coletti not only reads brilliantly but his work sounds like bursts of song sewn together with unfiltered and beautifully strange word structures. I could go on and on but I just wanted to add a few... Mariana Ruiz Firmat >From: Gary Sullivan >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: 100 NYC poets >Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 03:43:19 -0400 > >That was a great list, Jim, and you shouldn’t kick yourself. I wanted, >though, to add to it, in part as just a kind of "evidence" or whatever of >the many & varied younger poets (though what is "younger"? under 30? under >40? 45?), all of whom I’ve read & who have written at least one poem or >series or book I was really amazed by. I’m going to limit it to New York >poets, or at least poets who I associate for whatever reason with New York, >since it’s largely the NY scene that Fagin was dismissing > >Allison Cobb, who’s written a series of brilliant chapbooks, at least one >longer collaborative poem (with Jen Coleman & Chris Putnam), and who is a >really fabulous reader > >Jen Coleman, whose work I know less of, but only because she’s published >less of it, though she gave a wonderful reading at Zinc earlier this year >(or late last?) > >Julie Patton, whose poems seem like performances, and whose performances, >no >two of which are the same, seem like poems, and whose writing is always >unexpected, highly torqued, playful & moving > >Drew Gardner, whose Water Tables is wonderful, & who continues to amaze me >in his ability to weave numerous threads (p.o.v.s or systems of knowledge) >into play through a single poem (& who is also a great writer of Flarf) > >Kimberly Lyons, who is one of my favorite NYC poets, & who I suppose is one >of the most "New York School" of anyone I’ll mention, though is that even >evident reading her amazing Abracadabra? > >Tod Thilleman, whose A World of Nothing But Nations, a long poem made up of >entries made into a (purposely chosen) very small notebook, is still one >of >my favorite books by a younger NYC poet > >I think of Stacy Doris as a New York, if not New York School, poet, >although >she lives most of the time in Paris—anyway, Paramour is as lovely & >inventive as it is hilarious > >I love Brian Kim Stefans’ variousness, his web-poem The Dreamlife of >Letters, which completely blew both me & Nada away the day we happened upon >it, and especially his book Gulf > >Lytle Shaw, another poet whose variousness never ceases to amaze & inspire >me (these are going to get shorter, as it’s getting late) > >Adeena Karasick, who’s written a series of absolutely stunning books > >Siane Ngai & Dan Farrell, who’ve moved to the west coast, but both of whom >I >saw read here, & loved > >Rick Snyder, whose poems are smart, sardonic, intense > >Kevin Davies & Deirdre Kovak--Kevin is, according to one friend, one of >Fagin’s favorite younger poets, as well as most of ours, and Deidre is >probably the funniest poet I’ve ever read > >Rodrigo Toscano gave a great reading at Double Happiness earlier this year > >as did both Kevin Varrone and Pattie McCarthy, at Zinc & the PoProj > >Sharon Mesmer is outstanding > >Stephen Paul Miller wrote one of my all-time favorite diatribe poems > >I’m in envy of Merry Fortune’s edginess > >Charles Borkhuis is more noir than Bogart > >Dalies by Tim Davis is one of Nada’s favorite books > >Carole Mirakove’s Wall is one of mine > >Joe Elliot is quietly writing fabulous poems while the rest of us bicker on >listserves > >I love Eleana Kim’s "My experience is learning, but not from you" and >Joanna >Fuhrman’s "In a Little Box" > >Sue Landers’ little pill book is as brilliant as it is tiny, I cherish both >my copies > >Kenny Goldsmith’s 111 is a ceaseless pleasure & his reading earlier this >year at Double Happiness one of the best I’ve ever seen > >Jen Robinson & Brendan Lorber rewrote each other’s poems, then rewrote the >rewrites, & read the same at a fabulous reading at Halcyon several months >ago > >Do you know two more exciting readers than Marcos Villa Lobos or John >Coletti? > >Whenever I see Wendy Kramer read I always feel like the doddering old >curmudgeon I am > >Tracy Blackmer & Brenda Coultas ROCK > >Edwin Torres is mind-blowing > >Alissa Quart does not get enough attention > >Neither do Matthew Rohrer, Kim Rosenfield, Jenny Smith or Douglas >Rothschild, whose birthday party I missed tonight, wanting instead to type >his name here > >Betsy Andrews is too smart for her own britches > >Andrew Levy is not worthy of praise? Nor Rob Fitterman? > >Laurie Price! > >Eleni Sikelianos! > >Laird Hunt! > >The most surprising & wonderful manuscript of (still unpublished) work I >read in 1999 was by Noelle Kocut > >Oh! the heartache of realizing I’ll never be as groovy as Elinor Nauen > >nor as astute & funny as Alan Gilbert > >nor as frank as Regie Cabico > >nor as wild & perplexing as Sean Killian & Chris Funkhauser > >Eliot Katz will always look more like a Ramone than me > >Richard Loranger will always be more personable > >Oh! why am I not as smart as Melanie Nielson? > >Why does Katie Degentesh write more searing flarf than me? > >It isn’t fair! that I wasn’t born Marcella Harb > >nor Chris Edgar > >Now, I am rolling around on the floor, typing into my computer with one >free >finger, because Jeff Derksen has kicked my ass w/his poetry! > >Now, David Kirschenbaum is kicking me, too, with poems more personally >revealing than my own! > >Michael Scharf has joined in the fray! Head-butting me, to prove the >superior size of his cranium & the vast systems of knowledge housed within >it! > >Ouch! No! Stop! > >Ohhhhh ... in pain ... I reach for ... the keyboard ... but Ethan Fugate >shoves his "Shoved in the Statue’s Cleft Chin" into my own chin! ... OW! > >My face is bloodied, the breath kicked out of me, should I resort to DC & >beyond? I’m only up to 63 poets, that’s nothing, why I can name three times >that many published by Adventures in Poetry! No, I ... must ... continue >... >[cough!] ... [cough! cough!] ... > >Is Jerome Sala a younger poet or Elaine Equi? No! I must be strong ... >brave >... not veer from ... task ... > >Dan Machlin has arrived to give me a copy of his Glass Owl as well as a >list >of poets I’ve not yet mentioned, including Brandon Downing! & Gillian >McCain >& Donna Cartelli! Jo An Wasserman, who’ll be here shortly! The list is >endless! Why, here, in brilliant red ink, is the name of Marianne Shaneen, >who gave the greatest reading at Teachers & Writers EVER! Oh! ... am >struggling now to sit upright ... must list 100 poets in NYC ... > >Elinor "El" Warner, Peter Neufeld ... Pam Rehm is still in NYC, yes? ... oh >... Heather Ramsdell? ... [cough!] ... screen is blurry now ... fingers >numb >... losing "editorial focus" ... [cough!] ... Eileen Tabios moved, but >she’s >still NYC to me ... [cough! cough!] ... it’s not enough, yet I don’t want >to >fail ... [cough!] ... can see Ghost Fagin-Head above me, booming: "Gary, >that is only 70-something younger poets, why in *my* day .." ... [cough!] >... [cough!] ... Myself! even though my poetry sucks, I’ll never write a >book as great as Rhymes of a Jerk ... but how about Martine Bellen! ... >[cough!] ... and Lew Daly ... is Geoffrey O’Brien considered young? ... >sight completely gone now ... can no longer read spine titles ... is Ron >Kohlm too old? ... dear god ... all sight gone now ... feel as though I’m >being shoved into $300-a-month rent-controlled apartment ... will lose all >perspective now ... no ... must ... crawl back out ... "dig the streets" >... >come up with ... [cough!] ... more names ... must press 100 mimeo books >tonight then "hang out" with Anne and Ted at 4:00 a.m. ... [cough!] ... >must >not ... [cough!] ... slip into obscurity ... need more names ... [cough! >cough!] .... > >Feel like Sondheim post now ... won’t recover ... Perloff hates me ... dear >god no ... [cough!] ... WHY ARE MY UNDERWEAR DOWN AROUND MY ANKLES??? ... >[cough!] ... Elizabeth Fo-COUGH COUGH-dowski! ... I’m losing street-cred >... >dear god, no ... Sondheim rub-off ... [cough!] ... > >Robert Kocick ... SPARROW! ... is David Trinidad too old to mention? ... >Ammiel Alcalay? ... Murat Nemet Nejat? ... Tracey Chiang? ... only 90 >younger poets mentioned ... must ... get ... 100 ... or ... won’t ... be >... >taken ... seriously ... > >Dear God, THE AMOUNT OF BLOOD STREAMING FROM MY GUMS, EYEBALLS AND EARS IS >HORRIFYING!!! > >... yet ... must ... continue ... > >Cliff Fyman? ... I have lost all credibility ... Mike Topp ... am actually >dying now ... please god give me eight more names ... Sal Salasin! although >I guess he moved, but still ... [cough!] ... I have no emotions left ... >eyebrows have flaked off ... chin sagging now ... penis a thin line of >drool-like substance between legs ... [cough!] ... Laura Silver! ... does >Daniel Kane write poetry? ... [cough!] ... grasping now ... nearly four >a.m. >... all feeling in body gone ... all editorial focus dissipated ... shell >of >self ... can’t write or edit anything but shit now ... crawling reluctantly >into grave ... unable to breathe except for bubbles of spit coming from >mouth & nostrils ... have soiled self ... locusts laying eggs in thinning >hair ... Darlene Gold? ... horrible embarrassing line of "poopy" trailing >from anus like famous Kiki Smith art-piece ... can’t ... hold ... head ... >"up" ... didn’t Jeff Gburek live in NYC? ... even for five minutes? ... >please ... [cough!] ... I need your help! ... I’ll take anything now ... >four more names ... any names ... Sam Truitt, isn’t he NYC? ... [cough!] >... >that guy that does that magazine ... [cough!] ... I forget the name of it >... shit ... oh, shit ... is Maggie Nelson NYC? ... Carol Szamatowicz? > >... lips ... trembling ... have ... exhausted ... self ... brain ... nerves >... can ... only ... collapse ... ohhh ... urghhhhghgh ... mphhghghh ... >ngdjflkdjf ... > >djfaklfjsa .... > >dfl. > >. .f > > s . > > > ..s > > > .s.. > >. > >s > >z > > > . > > > l > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 08:30:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Coffey Subject: Re: Denise Duhamel contact info MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit deniseduhamel@deniseduhamel.deniseduhamel (or so the poems might lead you to believe...) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Archambeau" To: Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 2:24 PM Subject: Denise Duhamel contact info > Can anyone backchannel me Denise Duhamel's email address? > > Thanks, > > Bob Archambeau > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:07:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: Democratic taste w/ digressions (part 1) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > *Democratic Taste 2* > > 5. **Our aesthetic response, as Greenberg argues, requires the commitment of > our whole person**. Yes, we have to get 100% of our affect behind that Olitsky pink mist, or nobody will buy it. You all still afraid to pitch to me, Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:20:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Re: 100 NYC poets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi Marianna, I like the poets you mention, but didn't mention them myself (nor many of my own favorites: Nada Gordon, Mitch Highfill, Chris Stroffolino, etc.) because Jim Behrle already had & my list was supposed to be an addition to that. I did make two boo-boos, though: Jim already mentioned Edwin Torres, so strike him from my list. :^( I somehow managed to transpose Peter Neufeld & Dan Machlin. The Glass Owl book is Peter's. Duh. Thanks! Gary _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:16:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Levitsky Subject: Re: great / hard / sad In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bravo ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 09:28:35 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: acker, bataille, etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Um... a typo, I think, Jacques. One reference book I have lists the publication date of _Axel's Castle_ as 1931. So yes, that IS more than 40 years ago, innit? Mark DuCharme <<<< JD wrote: >The novel can do almost anything. It's subsumed poetry in a sense (Edmund >Wilson made this observation more than 40 years ago in Axel's Castle). _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:29:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: what she is thinking she will say MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - what she is thinking she will say fissures, structure breaks at inscription: breakdowns and the problematic of mathematics. what crystalline mechanism prevents chaos: cages break down disseminations: locks contain spews: banks otherwise...the loosening of the strands, breaking of the vessels...the fissures, structure breaks at inscription: she is doing her toilet...she breaks down and math is a problem. what crystalline mechanism gives herself a break..."not to be so hard on herself"... it's something impossible "to get away with" - decay breaking down "in a manner" i know this now: "i'm going to break down here. i'm going to die here. i should be wrapping up here," she says. she says: "disseminations: locks contain spews: banks otherwise...the loosening of:of mathematics. what crystalline mechanism prevents chaos: cages break down:fissures, structure breaks at inscription: breakdowns and the problematic:inscription: she is doing her toilet...she breaks down and math is a:" she says: "the problematic:inscription: she is doing her toilet...she breaks down and" she says: "do fissures, structure breaks at inscription: breakdowns and the problematic replace your disseminations: locks contain spews: banks otherwise...the loosening of" she says: "your doll dissolves my !" she says: "your wraithe dissolves my loosening of:of mathematics. what crystalline mechanism prevents chaos" she says: "i'm dying here. my skull is filled with projectors. i'm not living here. i'm dying here." _ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:38:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Democratic taste w/ digressions (part 1) In-Reply-To: from "Jacques Debrot" at Aug 25, 2001 05:45:29 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, trying to find a way to continue this very interesting Jacques-inspired conversation without getting my Ire-ish up too much. Jacques of course says very provocative, pointed things which can appear hurtful, and may well be, to the very invested. To wit, his attack on O'Hara and the preposterous suggestion that "More than anything he ever actually wrote, it was a dune buggy on a beach in Fire Island that launched Frank O'Hara as a p-o-e-t." It is interesting to have found, in the course of this conversation, opinions by Jacques which seem the very opposite of my own, particularly given the fact that in the past we have agreed on so much, including the wonderful-ness of Frank O'Hara. But as he himself has suggested, having given up the writing of poetry, he seems to have had something like a conversion experience. "He that is spiritually enlightened truly apprehends and sees it, or has a sense of it," says Jonathan Edwards - hence the tone of Jacques' recent offerings, and his insistence on the category of "intuition" (tho he has yet to define it in a useful way) provides the perfect companion for this tone. Now, it would be typical of me to leap to O'Hara's aid at this point -- as I'm guessing many of you out there feel like doing. I suggest that we don't, except in the way Kasey suggested we should by discussing the work in some detail. As I said, Jacques' view is the very opposite of mine: it strikes me that O'Hara's death, while it may have made him famous/infamous has in fact inhibited (greatly) the reading of his work. In fact, the tragic narrative made available by his death is what provides most of the validation for the specious categories Jacques hangs his hat on: "white negroism, homosexual anxiety, art heroism, Day-Glo existential hipsterism, and uptown/downtown 2-timing." It's utterly peculiar to me that Jacques would mention my work on O'Hara, which he has read, and then hang a tag like "White Negro" (and here I hope he is being precise enough that he is connecting O'Hara to the characterizations in Mailer's essay rather than using the term as a writer for Newsweek would) when my work on O'Hara (which he hyberbolically called "brilliant) does nothing if not debunk the comparison of Mailer and O'Hara. Jacques, you certainly must know, that to say that I write about O'Hara from a biographical perspective (and thus suggest an affinity between my work and Gooch's) says very little about the work. True enough, I don't drop a lovable postmodern theory on top of the work all biographical facts to the contrary, but I'd hardly call it biographical criticism. The lynchpin of the piece I have coming out in Contemporary Literature, after all, is a ten page reading (a re-visioning, I'd say) of "The Day Lady Died" the conclusion of which is a very careful parsing of the final stanza - a discussion, in short, of prosody. Having discovered in O'Hara's unpublished letters, a note in which he provided his publisher with a meticulous revision of the linebreaks in one of his poems (can't remember which just now) I had the stunning thought that maybe O'Hara actually cared about how his poems looked on the page, imagine that. This "close reading" as they used to say, segues with a discussion of the "new thing" jazz being played at the Five Spot at the time which, Baraka tells me, interested O'Hara quite a bit. Now, you can argue, if you like, that O'Hara was putting Baraka on because he wanted to get in his pants or something to that effect, but I'll take Baraka's word for it under the assumption that our great! poets don't simply live their lives as if following a bad soap opera script. Even the excerpt I'm discussing is a bit too long for the List but my point is simple: your misrepresentation of my work is symptomatic of your take on O'Hara: I dare say it amounts to a repression. There is one more thing to say about your disparagement of the "biographical," though. It suggests a, I think, flawed view of the relationship between the Self and the aesthetic object. Your privileging of the notion of "involuntariness of intuition in aesthetic experience" clashes in an interesting way with your notion of an "imaginative exertion demanded of *individuals* to account for that experience." Demanded by who, and for what? Since you don't admit the category of the social (or at the very least keep it at a distance from the aesthetic), you're hard-pressed to explain why anything would or should be demanded of anyone and what the result would be, beyond epiphany, if that demand were met. This is the reason that you yourself can offer the surest of judgements regarding the greatness of Eliot and who's better than who but can't begin, it seems, to explain why, for what, for whom. Despite the fact that you can't explain why anyone should give a lick about any of this, you nonetheless see it as a "demand." What you're talking about Jacques is, finally, a "calling." Your theoretical perspective, if you don't mind my saying so, owes an awful lot to Puritan thinkers like Edwards, Mather, -- not necessarily a bad thing, those fellas, like yourself, are very complicated, interesting thinkers (albeit prone to the occasional rash judgement and not a little pontificating), but it would seem to me that "faith" is necessarily a central aspect of your theory. Your critique then, would decry the devaluation of aesthetic experience in a manner not unlike Edwards decried the devaluation of religious experience during the Great Awakening. I would argue that what I do doesn't amount to a devaluation but rather focuses attention, Williams James-style on the Varieties of Aesthetic Experience - trying hard, with varying degrees of success, to explain why one might want to have one in the first place. Lastly, you're right to suggest that Hickey disagrees with you in important respects -- I think in spirit as well, at least in the context of your latest posts. As a self-proclaimed pragmatist, Hickey sees aesthetic choices, aesthetic experiences as socially symbolic acts, albeit one's which call for endless debate, dialogue, explanation. Hell, this is why he cares in the first place about the art object contextualized to "provide occasions for mastery" and this is why he seeks a decontextualization which *fundamentally* changes the object as such by setting it in motion, by making it *available*. In every sense of that word (including the sexual one). Fuck art, fuck with art, you know. Hickey's interest in beauty, it seems to me, is not unlike Jameson's interest in utopia: both, taking a page from Burke, see in these two gestures, a socially symbolic act which can awaken both dissatisfaction and, especially, desire. Incidentally, nobody uses beauty/utopia in this way better than O'Hara, to my mind: quite in agreement with Hickey, I'd say, he uses "personality as a consequence of reciprocal exteriority" to posit a lovingly democratic world. Bully for him. My employment of Hickey in an attempt to argue against, you, Jacques, is funny, given that you were the person that turned me on to Hickey in the first place. And I must say you owe him a more strenuous argument than the mere acknowledgement of disagreement you've posted so far. Either that or a mea culpa. Berryman indeed! Though I have an old sift spot for him, his work has the emotional range of a heartsick teenager, learned tho he may bee. -m. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 09:58:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: walterblue Subject: Re: 100 NYC poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wanda Phipps is classic! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:12:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Re: Democratic taste w/ digressions (part 1) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Jacques: >b. Still, something like Jim's nominalistic vodoo of naming 100 >younger >poets, & consequently, by the very act of their being named by >him, >becoming writers "doing impt work," is dumb in a way that's >becoming >almost fatally & complacently routine--remember Silliman's >naming 160 >poets in _The Art of Practice_? If Silliman had read 100 >pages of work by >each of these poets he would have to have read 16,000 >pages--almost all of >it uncollected at the time he was writing (and >perhaps still is). More >likely he (& Jim) had only seen a few poems >by most of the poets they >list. I like my voodoo, and the 100s of poets e-mailed to this list in a couple of messages, Gary's especially. My list was of poets I admire. I don't know what "important work" is. I'm not sure why reclusive poets feel they must lecture about something they must not know anything about. I'm greatly looking forward to seeing more of the work from the folks I listed, and from others. I appreciate all the backchannels from the list-- I look forward to more. Thanks, everyone. --Jim _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 12:21:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson Subject: Re: Why I was a bad poet (was: greatness; editors, editing, etc.) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Jacques Debrot-- What Fagin--& what the other poets of his generation--are expressing, I > think, is the feeling that they've been passed over w/out having been given > their shot. Do they deserve that? some do some don't no doubt, and don't most poets feel this way? Michael Magee-- not only is O'Hara a much better poet than Eliot, Eliot isn't even that great. And not only that I'd much rather hang out with O'Hara! Is Fagin the one Ange Mlinko interviewed in PPNL, who complained of the younger gen's overinterest in the recent past? If not, pardon me Mr. Fagin! If so, I thought it a strange comment whoever made it, a comment no doubt containing some truth, but then again, I would more tend to think it's the olders with an overinterest in a particular recent past. Which is only to say, I didn't recognize myself or my reading as having such an overinterest, tho perhaps that depends on one's definition of both the words recent and young. (ie perhaps I am no longer young, alors -- tho for an architect I certainly am). Elizabeth _________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell http://www.poetrypress.com/avec/populace.html "Part little Serpents, or odd Flies, or Worms, or any strange Thing" --Aphra Behn _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:08:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: plath a surfeit of suicides, a plethora of Plath, a phalanx of feminists foo-pooing... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:11:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson Subject: erratum Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed In the brainclear that follows dismissing oneself from the computer, I realize that it is my guess that the comment to which I referred in my previous post today was made not by Larry Fagin but by Charles North. However I may be still incorrect as the source materials have been taken to the SPT office as of this point. In any case, apologies for my very own confusion, and still presume the comment might add a further flavor to the thread. __________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell http://www.poetrypress.com/avec/populace.html "Part little Serpents, or odd Flies, or Worms, or any strange Thing" --Aphra Behn _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:12:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Re: acker, bataille, etc. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 2:38 PM -0400 8/26/01, Jacques Debrot wrote: >But why are so few transgressive or pornological gestures really riveting, >humbling, or disturbing? Hickey argues that beauty makes the transgressive >*persuasive*--that it's as *celebration* rather than as *critique* that >transgression achieves a real rhetorical acuity. Jacques, I think lots of them *are* riveting. And, you're right about my naming prosy excessive people--these are close to my heart and came to mind first. But excess has been an ongoing impulse in poetry--from before Whitman to Anne Waldman and beyond. You mention Hickey and Edmund Wilson. Yikes! As you know, reality can be view through many windows and I think you've been looking through a conservative, reactionary window. My advice: look elsewhere. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:24:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Please note - address and phone numbers, thanks - MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII These are the new address and phone numbers for Azure Carter and Alan Sondheim - we're down in Miami and are moving in (i.e. out of the motel into the "townhouse") tomorrow - It's been a long rough road - Alan Azure Carter and Alan Sondheim - Address 4600 SW 67th Avenue, Apartment 252, Miami, FLA, 33155 If for any reason you want to send to the university it's Alan Sondheim c/o Florida International University Visual Arts Department DM 382-371A 11200 SW 8th Street Miami, Florida, 33199 Phones - Cellphone 305-610-5620 (also voicemail) Apartment phone 305-668-5303 (no answering machine yet) Emails - sondheim@panix.com, azurcarter@aol.com Thanks, Alan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 20:44:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: Fwd: [BI] m&r...Goset.... nudel-soho@mindspring.com wrote: > Just out...CUBO-FUTURIST-KLEZMER...Recordings from the Moscow State Yiddish Theatre...The theatre burnt down...the archives eradicated..the members liquidated...all that survives are copies of inexpensive 78s sold at the theatre shop in Moscow.....& at THE SOVIET WORLD'S FAIR PAVILLION in NY 1939... In besieged Stalingrad.....everyone bright is taking the first train to Clarksville...the bombs are whistling...1,000,000's are dying...and our hero the poor shabby shlepp collector is slowly carefully meticulously steadfastly putting folded newspaper around each & every one of his 78s and placing 'em gingerly in the closet...waiting the day for lest... In NY....his cousin the poor shlepp "schneider" (tailor in Yiddish..literally cutter) spends his LAST few groshen at the Soviet Pavillion...the 78 joins its brothers in stacks in closets in bathroom tub in frig a nice mad fecund jumblearee...waiting for the day lest... Stalin managed to burn down the theatre...kill the principals..expunge the archives...the poor shlepp.... the newspaper collector the dust mongerer the one-snaggled tooth madman..he's harder to liquidate..he's the shadow that the powerful shoot at but miss...memory's a lost tune of a ghost lover...the Drs....N... __________________________________________________________________________ BookFinder Insider -- http://lists.bookfinder.com/mailman/listinfo/insider ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 20:54:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: acker, bataille, etc. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > At 2:38 PM -0400 8/26/01, Jacques Debrot wrote: > >But why are so few transgressive or pornological gestures really > riveting, > >humbling, or disturbing? Hickey argues that beauty makes the > transgressive > >*persuasive*--that it's as *celebration* rather than as *critique* that > >transgression achieves a real rhetorical acuity. > There's some. try Pierre Guyotat: riveting, humbling & disturbing fit him perfectly. ________________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris Just out from Wesleyan UP: 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 POASIS: Selected Poems 1986-1999 Tel: (518) 426-0433 Fax: (518) 426-3722 go to: http://www.albany.edu/~joris/poasis.htm Email: joris@ albany.edu Url: ____________________________________________________________________________ _ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:37:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Levitsky Subject: Re: motherhood poetry gospels In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Robert, Just saw this (my online reading ability is at memory loss level). Thanks! I don't know how to backchannel anymore because the emails don't come up. What can we do about that? RAchel -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Robert Corbett Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 1:09 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: motherhood poetry gospels one might say, hysterically catholic. for a truly strange reading experience (assuming you are more skeptical than he is), read "Things Hidden Since the Foundation of the World"--though it is one of the truly great examples of someone simply ignoring or rejecting counterevidence in order to make argument. as I recall, he simply rejects the parts of the Bible that seemingly contradict him. it's much more pleasing to apply the strictures he does to other religions back to X-tianity: after all, this is a religion where the Savior's blood is drunk every week (at least after transubstantiation, which may or may not be still Vatican policy--I'm not up these things). that said, he is much more interesting on literature: check out Deceit, Desire and the Novel. Robert -- Robert Corbett "I will discuss perfidy with scholars as rcor@u.washington.edu as if spurning kisses, I will sip Department of English the marble marrow of empire. I want sugar University of Washington but I shall never wear shame and if you call that sophistry then what is Love" - Lisa Robertson On Mon, 13 Aug 2001, Maria Damon wrote: > rene girard is deeply catholic. > > At 3:23 PM -0400 8/11/01, Rachel Levitsky wrote: > > From Cassie Lewis: > > > >As far as judgements about her parenting etc, it is all about speculation, > >isn't it? So why then the need for evidence? I have a distaste for holding > >parents responsible for anything and everything, as though their lives > >stopped when they had kids, and by extension as though there weren't a > >bigger social context for Plath's depression. > > > >>From me, Rachel: > > > >Mothers are just women, yes? > > > >Yes, in fact I am trying to figure out why so many women, single, lesbian, > >married etc, my age (35-40--yes I am many) are popping out little ones with > >great enthusiasm. After having so many choices does it seem like the only > >one? Or do we do it cuz we can? Or is it an act of mimesis. i don't think > >women could possibly believe they'd be more valued by the culture as > >mothers. > > > >And speaking of the culture, did any of you read the article in the Business > >section of yesterday's (Friday, Aug 10) Times about the "Bully Broads"--a > >group that women execs are sent to by their male bosses when they are deemed > >too tough. It's like a corporate gulag or AA where you must see and confess > >the error of your ways in order to begin to progress toward gentleladiness. > >Is the power of the corporate entity in getting these women to these groups > >to reform and confess just monetary? (Not to mention the funeral for > >feminism)(BTW--it takes place in bay area) > > > >Lastly on the topic of culture--I just read this book by Rene Girard call > >The Scapegoat and am wondering if anyone has read it too. He finds in the > >Gospels the first major text that provides the tools for the culture to > >begin to move away from violent epiphanies by making them obvious. Is he a > >catholic or a pacifist? > > > >Would love feedback on Girard: Levitsk@attglobal.net > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:35:52 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Re: Why I was a bad poet (was: greatness; editors, editing, etc.) Comments: To: "richard.tylr" In-Reply-To: <007201c12f5d$1f5ae880$102037d2@01397384> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > -----Original Message----- > From: richard.tylr [mailto:richard.tylr@xtra.co.nz] > Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 9:03 PM > To: patrick@proximate.org > Subject: Re: Re: Why I was a bad poet (was: greatness; editors, editing, > etc.) > > > Jim Jaques Patrick etal. I'm just catching up on all this. I thought > Patrick that Jim was going to pick up on your "I see piles of shit > everywhere"! (That could be the beginning of a poem? No?)Which, > on its own, > would be a worry indeed! But he snippped your original message and hence > distorted your meaning and his reply was ambiguous: did he mean ...well I > couldnt make out what he meant becuase you'd just finished saying > that there > is a lot of good poetry about. [...] >The answer Jaques, is not to "stop > writing poetry", > but not give a damn: and to care very much about what YOU are writing or > want to write. [...] And if you cant find a way of evaluating poetry how do you know > that the NY or any other poetry scene is full of bad poetry? Richard - Because I said so! One can know about one's own subjectivity even if one doesn't know about one's own self or. To restate, I know, because I know how I feel. That's it! Actually, I tend to lean TOWARDS NYCPo, but partially because I was raised in that region of the planet & so the voices sound familiar in their own odd ways. And thank you for observing where I was making distinctions. I think in a way that my saying "there's a lot of bad poetry around" sadly enough makes people feel nervous. It's a very Kafkaesque situation and by accident I end up as the guy in the tower, with all of these judgments. But hey, when it comes to writing, I'm extremely opinionated about everybody's work. So what? Hasn't everyone met an opinionated Yankee before, even one who doesn't have the credentials to justify the opinions? Poetry's perhaps the only place in my life where I always know what I'm looking for even if I've never seen it. The poetry of certain writers just leaps off the page for me. Linh Dinh, for example. There's nothing exactly spectacular about the surfaces of his poems, but they are like the surface of a pot of water just before boil. All of the conflict, the reason for the poem to BE, all that energy just quietly softly bending the surface in his poems. I myself am "guilty" of the intellectual poem, writing something just to achieve something formally or to make a point. And those are my worst poems. They might be "interesting" or complicated at best but they are never beautiful except perhaps to accountants and physicists who accidentally ended up in writing (and I am that person at least in part). Big deal. My ego isn't at stake. > I think that in the present time there are thousands of brilliant poets: > young and old. And I have no problem with that even if I differ and say that there are thousands of brilliant folks who occasionally write a Pretty Good Poem and rarely write a Really Good Poem. I hope you don't have a problem with our differences! > Ok. There is a place for "darkness" and "passion"...how to integrate that > with craft and cleverness and wit.? I'd say it's damn near impossible to contrive such an integration. But I can make a guess. Work for years and write write write. Try many new things, reject certain things, accept others. Think about your writing, try again, share it, pull it back, and keep trying. Keep tinkering. LOVE the tinkering. Be unable to live without the tinkering, the reading, the processing. Then suddenly something really amazing or horrible happens to you and all of that energy can just sort of come together and there you are writing writing writing but this time you have something really horrible or amazing to say when you are writing writing writing. And with all of the books out there, I can spend a little time finding these horrible or amazing things and pretty much be able to read every day reading the things I chose to read, instead of just reading everything that comes my way (just as this e-mail may be deleted upon sight of my e-mail address). thanks, Patrick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:55:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: gene Subject: Re: plath In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Harry, You paint with a broad brush. No need to go after feminists. It's the nausea of nostalgia, the predictable and all-too-repeated angst-romance about Sylvia and Anne et al. It happened. It's done. It's sad. Their poems made it new. Our obligation is to make it new too. Gene At 10:08 AM 8/27/01 -0400, you wrote: > a surfeit of suicides, a plethora of Plath, a phalanx of feminists > foo-pooing... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:44:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: m&r...Houston... ...Houston.....we're having a problem.....there are no living life forms......on this po' world.............over & out dRn... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:42:24 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: Re: Democratic taste w/ digressions (part 1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike, A few things: 1. Only a mad scientist reading would lead you to find the kinds of references that you uncover in my post to yr (not hyperbolically, but genuinely) brilliant dissertation. Commenting on my own dissertation, my first reader remarked to me how, despite the fact that I was discussing so-called advanced writers like O'Hara, I seemed to rely on biographical data to advance my thesis. It struck me then that, as neither a positive nor a negative judgement, how widespread this treatment of O'Hara is--for instance, most notably, in Perloff. In fact I think that your, her, and my own analyses are perfectly ok. But I believe we should pay attention to & notice what we're doing. It is significant, isn't it, that postmodern poetries are not really susceptible to postmodern reading strategies which are all aimed in a sense at uncovering the texts "unconscious"? 2. If I hadn't written as late at night as I am now doing and w/ as much haste, there would not have been dashes, but equal signs between the letters of O'Hara's name. Then it would have been more apparent to you that what I was "fucking with" (as you say Hickey suggests we do) was not the poet, but the p=o=e=t; not O'Hara, but the sacred cow he has become. Mike, I suspect that you only want to fuck art and fuck w/ art when the target is an easy or a safe one, but what's the point of that? I love O'Hara, but I'm beginning to get bored w/ O'Hara idolatry & mimicry. & of course Kasey is right--the only way you can change someone's mind about a poem is to force him or her back to it. 3. Which leads me to tell you about the time I was in the Grolier poetry bookstore w/ a friend of mine. He'd found a book of poems that, after reading around in for a few minutes, he'd become enthusiastic about and wanted to show me. I noticed who the publisher was though (Knopf or something) and kind of waved him off **w/out looking at it.** Afterwards I realized that I'd become an av-garde snob & know-nothing. Dave Hickey and Edmund Wilson, for instance, are merely reactionaries according to this logic. Greenberg is just an obscurantist. Berryman has a teenager's emotional range. Etc., you see. But like I say I slowly began to realize how narrow my reading had become & how much I'd begun to cut myself off from. 4. What I like to do is this: to take 2 seemingly antithetical but compelling positions (like Greenberg's & Hickey's) & to see what they have to say to each other. It's not that I deny the social aspect of poetry at all, but that in this particular thought experiment I place a heavier emphasis than Hickey does in some moods on the individual's reception of art as a private experience (a more apolitical, but not de-politiciized approach). Greenberg, by contrast, would find my treatment *too* invested in relativisms. But you respond to my posts w/ straw men, as if I needed to be lectured for instance on the mysticism of epiphanical experience. I can think by the numbers too, but instead, I'm giving myself permission to play around w/ ideas that are actually very much in the air today--the revival of interest in the artword in Greenberg, for instance. **& I don't know why we can't begin to talk more simply and directly about art. Mike, Greenberg says correctly that "value judgements sneak back in" to every discussion of art, "unacknowledged, surreptitiously, inadvertantly. The art writer, the art lecturer tends to leave them out , but he (sic) is too confused to know when they come in." The posts criticizing me in this thread are rife w/ examples. 5. Finally, it's not poetry that I've been converted away from, but coeterie artistic practice. In reality poets in NYC & SF are not at all shy about making aesthetic weather reports, but in coeteries this is done privately--in bars, at parties, but *never* in magazines & on listservs in part on the nail-that-sticks-out-theory. I'm less interested than I had been before in private languages and socially closed aesthetic situations--as maybe everybody should be who doesn't make frequent trips to NYC or SF where reputations accrue thru assiduous insider trading. Wystan, thank you for the de Duve explication. I've only read Pictorial Nominalism and Duchamp After Kant so I can tell you know the work better than i do. What am I writing now? Not literature-in-general exactly, but fiction. & I will also follow Kasey's very wise policy of letting 20 (or more) e-mails appear on this thread before responding again--which will most likely mean never. --jacques ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:50:56 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: against new old-fogeyismand Re: why bad poet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim etal. I've read this Post now and I am in tune with what you're saying here: there is a small truth in the "moaning" of such that lament the "badness" etc but they waste their timeas they are never specific. Jaques errors less than the example you give. I agree in heart with the most of wht you say here. My critique of you're previous post is that (I've done this) maybe misinterpreted Patrick. I think he is - somwaht like Jaques, doing a kind of (or he could be doing) ...what's her name who gave up poetry. Sorry, blank, just woken up: you know her she wrote poetry as strange and sometimes as fascinating as Stein's. Her "guesture" or act (to give up poetry)one feels came from a very intense torment on the relationship of language to truth etc but Jaques, unless he was "having us on a bit" is more "old fogeyistical" than than Patrick. Mind you actual age is not inquestion here neccessarily as I like to think I feel (mind not body!) better than some young people. So, to round off, I agree in principle with your "bullshits". Regards, I'm following the "trail" of the Re:Why I was a bad poet emails so have a lot more coming up, Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Behrle" To: Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 8:44 AM Subject: against new old-fogeyism > Jeffrey Jullich: > > >We do not need new poetry....The sheer numbers of poets at this point > >threatens to drown out perception of any one. > > Jacques Debrot: > > >What's left, on the one hand, is fashion--which is entirely what is >being > >invoked by the constant rhetoric on this list >of "new," "emerging," > >"younger," poets, editors, readers, academics, >blah, blah, blah. On the > >other hand, the evasion of and the >resentment against the demands of taste > >make possible, I admit, an ethically beautiful experience of community and > >collaboration. The >value of this is at least as great as making "great" > >art, but you >should be aware at least that you're not--you can't be-- > >doing both > >at the same time. The way I've settled it for myself is to stop >writing > >poetry. > > Larry Fagan interview from the Poetry Project Newsletter, Summer 2001: > > >Daniel Kane: Some of you old fogies continue to grouse about current > >poetry. > > >Larry Fagan: And we will until we die. Unless it changes. > > >Daniel Kane: Can you specify your complaints? > > >Larry Fagan: Well, let's see...The obsession with the recent past seems > >shallow at >best. The way poets try to extract the ironic tone of 60s > >poetry--all the faux Frank O'Hara stuff--comes off like lame stand-up > >comedy--lots of name- > >dropping and product placement. And the timing is way off. > > >Daniel Kane: It sounds like you've been attending poetry readings >lately! > > >Larry Fagan: Some. There's so much playing to the crowd, which is a >way to > >connect with one another, I guess. Conversely, there's a good >deal of > >fractiousness and paranoia. So, who knows if there's a real >community to > >speak of? Younger writers don't seem to have that much >in common, except > > >a desire for self-expression and the fact that they >have to work like > >stevedores to meet their absurdly high overheads. >So they can't be > >serious. And they're no fun. > > >Daniel Kane: Is the nervous tittering you mention really nervousness >or > >in-crowd clubbiness? > > >Larry Fagan: I dunno, maybe it's the anxiety of wanting to belong. >Plus > >ambition, which is silly because there's so little at stake....In >fact, it > >would be fine with me if everyone were to stop writing for, >say, five > >years. > > Apologies for the long preamble. Pierre's post has given > me opportunity to touch upon Larry's interview and Jeffrey's > attitude: > > This is all utter nonsense. What we are witnessing, what > we are enduring, is a new old-fogeyism: a fanatical, nostaligic > golden look back at our art, at all art. These voices tell us, > "Sorry, kids, we had it great and you missed it." > > Bullshit. These voices tell us, "Poetry doesn't mean > what it used to, poets aren't as smart as they used to be, > our magazines were better, our poems were better, our > poets were better. Our weed, our sex, our boys and our > girls--it was non-stop heaven." > > Bullshit. These voices tell us "We had greatness, we had > rythym, we have our Mt. Rushmore of poets, and now > we just need to stop." > > Bullshit. I don't think you had to be a white guy and > go to Harvard in the 1950's to be a poet in this country. > > Do we need new poetry? Yes. Do we need new poetry > from you? You decide. Curl up with your favorite golden > oldies by the fire and remember how great it was, nobody's > stopping you. The rest of us will be writing. > > Mom and Dad, I'm glad you don't like my music. It's 9:30, > why don't you go to bed now? > > --Jim Behrle > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:54:53 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: poem formed from Custom Spelling Dictionary MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Keith Jones? Come on Aaron. You done it! Pre information Sondheim! I'll it's "pre information Sondhiem" you my Person!! But its brilliant whoever did it. It's like an information age Frank O'Hara or a pieceof cyber-Berrigan. Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Belz" To: Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 11:05 AM Subject: poem formed from Custom Spelling Dictionary My friend, the renaissance scholar Keith Jones, sent me this, his original composition--like some pre-information-age sondheim. If that would have been possible. ---------- A Poem, Written in Late Summer Using (Almost) Exclusively the Words Found in my Custom Spelling Dictionary ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Andromache and Andronicus dream'd doubleness. "Deprovincialize!" woo'd Andromache, "Hogarth's Hooykaas bow'd atomistical." II.Argument "Is't e'en worser, arhythmic knaue?" Andronicus dispatch'd. "Iwis Oudjavaansche-Nederiandsche and Grumio's abandon'd Nietszchean interpretatio Turn'd Spinoza Weïrd." I.iv whatsoe'er is passionlessness whatsoe'er is obsessiveness whatsoe'er is disquietfulness, punctuateness, shrewishness, unaccommodated, unconsequenced, unillusioned, unmaterialistic, unsocial, unvarious, . . . . . . . . . wive, Sirrah, wive. Damn'd cockfighters. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:02:49 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: against new old-fogeyism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron. I'm not Jim by the way..but I loved my parents music which was mostly classical. Maybe they liked songs from the 20s and thirtys. The conflict doesnt need to be that intense. by the way who'se like me and hates to fall asleep early and then I wake up and start reading or having coffee and playing Chess on ICC or studying the emails or whatever (usually everything but what I "should" be doing.)When I've finished this bio of Swinburne I'll start back on Life, a User's Manual which IS fascinating. What I've read of Perec so far I like greatly. But I fear the dark still, I suppose: and yet I love it. Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Belz" To: Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 3:48 AM Subject: Re: against new old-fogeyism > > > > Mom and Dad, I'm glad you don't like my music. It's 9:30, > > why don't you go to bed now? > > > > Hey, Jim, a new venture for you: Whydontyougotobednow.com > > I'm beginning to see how these things cross your mind! > > -Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 02:21:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: suicide and Plath and substance use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This from Emma Yates in the Guardian = http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,534006,00.html " He writes that Plath mistakenly swallowed pills which prompted her = suicidal feelings and this was the "key factor" in the 1963 tragedy.=20 Although Hughes does not name the particular drug in his letters, he = claims that whilst living in America Plath had suffered an adverse = reaction to some prescribed pills. When they moved to Britain, the drug = was sold under a different name and prescribed by her new doctor who was = unaware of her reaction. Hughes writes in the letter, "she was aware of = its effects which lasted about three hours... just time enough." I'd like to see a good psychiatric investigation of the actual = pharmacology involved but this is a plausible scenario in my experience = and sheds new light on possible diagnoses of SP. It also adds another = dimension to earlier discussions here regarding substances and poetic = expression? Especiaaly interesting in re current fads for youthful = recreational use of anti-depressants. tom bell =3D<}}}}}}}}}****((((((((&&&&&&&&&~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Metaphor/Metonym for health at = http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm Black Winds Press at = http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/blackwin.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:59:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: do not leave us, we can't stop speaking MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - do not leave us, we can't stop speaking "you are all witnesses," she said, "to this mold-death lizard-death, this reptilian world, this ancient world, look at the city placed there in the middle of this mammal-death, this corrosive heap of fur and mold; a few moments is all that is necessary, wet-rot sets in, i will be ancient community, you will not know me." "my words are already tainted with slime-mold, fungi, my eyes bear no resemblance to sight, look at them." "you say look at your eyes, look at you, look at your city. you say look at writing, there is nothing but scrawl, a city is a city, a thing is a thing, a human is a human." "you are all witnesses," she said, "i will be city, i will be ancient community, i will dissolve, this is not my home, this is of the homes of others, i smell them, they are my scent." "i am living in the pain and death of others, their odor, they trace themselves upon me, trace within me, i sense their coming, my eyes are theirs, my words are theirs, my mind is theirs." "you say you are theirs, that of scent and odor, you are using us in your words, you are their cries and whispers, look at them. you say they are your mind, look at their comings and goings. but you are of many things your dreams, a human is a human, a city is a city, a thing is a thing." "you are all witnesses," she said, "it will not be long, it will be a moment of another dawn, they are already looking, already becoming things, the city is built on ancient worlds, reptilian eyes follow me, they take my body, they pour in my holes, they enter everywhere, i am that city of the dawn, my eyes are sewn back, they stare at the sun, they will take my pain away." "they will not use my mouth to speak, they will not use my hands to write, nor my arms to gesture, they will not use my fingers to sign you, one after another sign, they will neither cry nor murmur, they will not love nor hate, they will be one and living in that city, that place, i am that city of the dawn." "you say of silencing, your world, you say of things, there are none, of minds and mouths, there are none, of signs, there are none. of the humans, you say nothing, you no longer say of the humans, you no longer move your hands, your arms, your fingers, you no longer say of silencing of the others, of the thinking, you no longer run your fingers through your hair, you no longer smile, you no longer walk lightly in this world, no longer walking in the world, silencing, no longer walking, of your eyes, no longer seeing, of your name, no longer hearing, of your names, humans no longer humans, of cities, no longer cities, of your minds, no longer minds, others speaking for you, of deaths, whirrings of unknown wings, eyes of different sights, ancient cities, wet-rot limbs decayed, corrosion bodies, we _ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:57:14 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Prageeta Sharma Subject: Poetry advertising in the New York Review of Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reply requested by October 4, 2001 Date: August 23, 2001=20 To: Poetry Press Directors, Marketing Managers, and Journals Managers=20 From: Prageeta Sharma, Advertising Associate, New York Review of Books =20 Re: Pre-holiday 2001 Combined Poetry Press Co-operative Ad (New!) =20 Greetings=E2=80=94 The New York Review of Books would like promote poetry after "National Poetr= y=20 Month" in order to encourage people to enjoy poetry all year around. We plan= =20 to showcase our combined poetry press Co-operative ad in our Pre-Holiday=20 issue, November 29. We will feature poetry titles from all presses that woul= d=20 like to participate. =20 The listing fees, which are provided below, are all-inclusive, covering=20 participation, design, production, space costs, typesetting, and proofreadin= g. $155 for each title listing of 1=E2=80=9310 lines=20 $165 for each title listing of 11=E2=80=9321 lines $45 for each four-color book jacket=20 The following pages include information on the listing format and subject=20 categories. The reply form appears on the last page. Please send the=20 completed reply form with all typed listings to arrive by mail or fax no=20 later than October 4, 2001. If you have any questions or comments, feel fre= e=20 to call me at (212) 757-8070, ext. 3009. I can also be reached via e-mail=20 at: psharma@nybooks.com. Thanks! =20 Ordering Options The addresses, phone numbers, and Web site URL=E2=80=99s for the presses=E2= =80=99 orders=20 departments will all be included in the Listings. One order coupon will also= =20 be included. It will contain information on how to order from single presse= s=20 and can be photocopied if the reader would like to order from several=20 different presses. On The Review=E2=80=99s Web site, the posted copy of the= Co-op ad=20 will include links to the presses=E2=80=99 individual Web sites.=20 PLEASE NOTE: Space will be provided on the coupon for Mastercard and Visa=20 credit card information. Paid orders are a benefit to those presses that=20 accept credit cards. Readers also have the option of sending their checks=20 with single press orders. International Sales Presses sending listings whose sales abroad are restricted by co-publishing=20 or other rights arrangements should mark those listings with an asterisk. =20 Prominently displayed will be the following statement: "Some sales=20 restrictions apply in the UK and elsewhere outside North America." We will=20 state that no check should accompany foreign orders; The New York Review =20 will forward orders to each press, which will be responsible for billing at=20 export or foreign prices. We will add a disclaimer to the ordering=20 information: "Prices shown apply to the US; foreign or export prices may be=20 higher." STYLE SHEET FOR BOOK LISTINGS 1. Prepare one listing per 8 1/2" x 11" sheet of white bond typed to an=20 average of 35 characters per line, double-spaced. Type all copy caps and=20 lower case in order indicated below. 2. On the next line, type the title. If appropriate, include an asterisk=20 before the title to indicate that "Some sales restrictions apply in the UK=20 and elsewhere outside North America." 3. The author=E2=80=99s name (first name first), underlined. 4. Descriptive information if desired. 5. The publication date and the Library of Congress catalog card number. =20 Please include a note at the bottom of the sheet if you need an extension to= =20 provide the LC number. 6. The trim size, # of pages, and other bibliographic data, in that order. 7. On the next line, type the short press name, ISBN, and price. 8. For book covers, please send either a copy of the book, or just the=20 cover, along with your entries. You can also send scans (four-color density= :=20 maximum 300%) on disc or via e-mail. We accept PDF=E2=80=99s created in Acro= bat=20 Distiller, files created in QuarkXPress 3.32 or higher for Macintosh, and EP= S=20 files created in Adobe Illustrator. SAMPLE OF COPY: =20 (poetry) =20 Traditional Literatures of the =20 American Indian: Texts and =20 Interpretations. Karl Kroeber, comp. =20 and ed. The first book describing =20 and analyzing a variety of traditional=20 Native American narratives, not as "primitive" tales, but as literature. Pub. 4/85. LC 80-18338. 5 1/2 x 8 1/2 in. 172 pp. notes. index. Nebraska ISBN 0-8032-2704-3 C/$16.50 Nebraska ISBN 0-8032-7753-9 P/$5.95 STYLE SHEET FOR JOURNAL LISTINGS 1. Prepare one listing per 8 1/2" x 11" sheet of white bond typed to an=20 average of 35 characters per line, double-spaced. Type all copy caps and=20 lower case. 2. On the next line, type the title. If appropriate, include an asterisk=20 before the title to indicate that "Some sales restrictions apply in the UK=20 and elsewhere outside North America." 3. The names (underlined) of the editor(s), if desired. 4. The frequency of publication. 5. Descriptive information, if desired. 6. On the next line, include the short press name and the ISSN number. 7. On the following line, type the annual subscription rate (refer to sampl= e=20 below). You may break this rate down and/or add single copy prices as you=20 please. 8. For cover scans, send a copy of the journal along with your entry.=20 SAMPLE OF COPY: =20 (poetry) =20 The Yale Review. Edited by Kai T. =20 Erikson. Quarterly. Publishes distinguished articles on current affairs and literary criticism, along with original works of poetry and fiction, including an extensive book review section. Yale ISSN 0044-0124 Annual Subscription: Inst. $12 Indiv. $10 REPLY FORM Combined Poetry Press Co-operative Ad The New York Review of Books=20 Issue 19, November 29, 2001=20 Mail to: Please mail or FAX to arrive=20 Prageeta Sharma October 4, 2001 Advertising Department The New York Review of Books=20 1755 Broadway, 5th Fl., New York, NY 10019 fax: 212-333-5374 Enclosed are materials for_____title(s), ______book jacket(s). The contact information we wish to have printed in The New York Review of=20 Books: PRESS=20 NAME______________________________________________________________________ PRESS=20 ADDRESS__________________________________________________________________ CITY________________________________________________STATE_________ZIP_______= __ __ ORDERS DEPARTMENT PHONE NUMBER____________________________________________ WEB SITE=20 URL_____________________________________________________________________ Our Press (can____) (cannot____) accept Mastercard and Visa credit card=20 orders. The address to which proof and all other correspondence should be sent is: CONTACT NAME/PRESS__________________________________________________________ ADDRESS_____________________________________________________________________= __ _ CITY_____________________________________STATE______ZIP_____________________= __ _ PHONE____________________________FAX_________-----------____________________= __ ___________ EMAIL=20 ADDRESS__________________________________________________________________ TOTAL _____Title(s) of 1=E2=80=9310 lines for $155 each $____________________ _____Title(s) of 11=E2=80=9321 lines for $165 each $____________________ _____Four-color book jackets for $45 each $____________________ TOTAL =20= =20 $____________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:00:50 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ammonides@AOL.COM Subject: painting outside corner Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jordan Davis (spitting Red Man juice), responding to the Greenbergian idea that we must give our 'all' in aesthetic engagements said: "Yes, we have to get 100% of our affect behind that Olitsky pink mist, or nobody will buy it. You all still afraid to pitch to me, Jordan." Alright, slugger. The point would be that anybody will buy anything now. Especially in poetry SoHo, where umbrella drinks are in, and reproductions are all the rage. Ammonides ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:12:48 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ammonides@AOL.COM Subject: minor leaguer Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Though I wish to be clear: I am a minor leaguer (middle reliever recently put on waivers by the Patmos Pre-Socratics, where Bill Luoma is also playing presently); I know Jordan Davis (what a great name for a baseball player!) is in the Big Show. So don't think me too full of myself, please. Ammonides ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:52:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: A Pact, for Democratic Taste In-Reply-To: from "Jacques Debrot" at Aug 27, 2001 11:42:24 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jacques, I realize you end up getting tarred and feathered in these discussions and I should have been more sensitive to that in my latest post, and less defensive myself. My use of Edwards was a way - a fairly poor one I see now - to draw you out into a more specific discussion of the nature of aesthetic experience and it's value, if those things can be talked about at all from where you're standing. Hey: I really do admire your willingness to work your ideas out in a public forum. I wonder what would have happened if the discussion hadn't been originally framed as a who's better than who discussion. I share, completely, your frustration over the coterie-sanctioned O'Hara: I feel like I'm wading against it much of the time. But I don't agree, I guess, with the logic of attempting to dismantle a present sacred cow by resusitating a past one. And I have what seem to me very very good and articulate-able reasons for thinking O'Hara a "better" poet than Eliot. My comment about Berryman was needlessly flip, but I want to let you know that I know John Berryman's work like the back of my hand - not just the Dream Songs but the Collected Poems too - I've written about Homage to Mistress Bradstreet, and I used to LOVE "Sonnets to Chris": the line from #73, "stumbles someone to the latch strap" has stuck with me for a decade: he had the whole sound of the Dream Songs already, right there. Then last year I thought I'd go back to the Dream Songs, having written all that stuff about Ellison, and maybe write about the minstrelsy there. But it turns out, I think, that there's not enough there there, it's fairly predictable as its employed by an, as I still say, emotionally limited guy who loved Bessie Smith. In positive addition, I'll say that he has a wonderful ear and can be quite funny in a sad-sack sort of way. Well, look, no need to push this rank list. Berryman's completely worth reading and all the rank-logic does is make one sound as if your saying *don't read so-and-so*. What I said in the begining holds true: any viciousness on my part reflects my urgent interest in your continuing to write *writing* - forget the word poetry - and in the hope that you won't necessarily mistake the earnest community for the coterie. Your friend, Mike. According to Jacques Debrot: > > Mike, > > A few things: > > 1. Only a mad scientist reading would lead you to find the kinds of > references that you uncover in my post to yr (not hyperbolically, but > genuinely) brilliant dissertation. Commenting on my own dissertation, my > first reader remarked to me how, despite the fact that I was discussing > so-called advanced writers like O'Hara, I seemed to rely on biographical data > to advance my thesis. It struck me then that, as neither a positive nor a > negative judgement, how widespread this treatment of O'Hara is--for instance, > most notably, in Perloff. In fact I think that your, her, and my own > analyses are perfectly ok. But I believe we should pay attention to & notice > what we're doing. It is significant, isn't it, that postmodern poetries are > not really susceptible to postmodern reading strategies which are all aimed > in a sense at uncovering the texts "unconscious"? > > 2. If I hadn't written as late at night as I am now doing and w/ as much > haste, there would not have been dashes, but equal signs between the letters > of O'Hara's name. Then it would have been more apparent to you that what I > was "fucking with" (as you say Hickey suggests we do) was not the poet, but > the p=o=e=t; not O'Hara, but the sacred cow he has become. Mike, I suspect > that you only want to fuck art and fuck w/ art when the target is an easy or > a safe one, but what's the point of that? I love O'Hara, but I'm beginning > to get bored w/ O'Hara idolatry & mimicry. & of course Kasey is right--the > only way you can change someone's mind about a poem is to force him or her > back to it. > > 3. Which leads me to tell you about the time I was in the Grolier poetry > bookstore w/ a friend of mine. He'd found a book of poems that, after > reading around in for a few minutes, he'd become enthusiastic about and > wanted to show me. I noticed who the publisher was though (Knopf or > something) and kind of waved him off **w/out looking at it.** Afterwards I > realized that I'd become an av-garde snob & know-nothing. Dave Hickey and > Edmund Wilson, for instance, are merely reactionaries according to this > logic. Greenberg is just an obscurantist. Berryman has a teenager's > emotional range. Etc., you see. But like I say I slowly began to realize > how narrow my reading had become & how much I'd begun to cut myself off from. > > 4. What I like to do is this: to take 2 seemingly antithetical but > compelling positions (like Greenberg's & Hickey's) & to see what they have to > say to each other. It's not that I deny the social aspect of poetry at all, > but that in this particular thought experiment I place a heavier emphasis > than Hickey does in some moods on the individual's reception of art as a > private experience (a more apolitical, but not de-politiciized approach). > Greenberg, by contrast, would find my treatment *too* invested in > relativisms. But you respond to my posts w/ straw men, as if I needed to be > lectured for instance on the mysticism of epiphanical experience. I can > think by the numbers too, but instead, I'm giving myself permission to play > around w/ ideas that are actually very much in the air today--the revival of > interest in the artword in Greenberg, for instance. **& I don't know why we > can't begin to talk more simply and directly about art. Mike, Greenberg says > correctly that "value judgements sneak back in" to every discussion of art, > "unacknowledged, surreptitiously, inadvertantly. The art writer, the art > lecturer tends to leave them out , but he (sic) is too confused to know when > they come in." The posts criticizing me in this thread are rife w/ examples. > > > 5. Finally, it's not poetry that I've been converted away from, but coeterie > artistic practice. In reality poets in NYC & SF are not at all shy about > making aesthetic weather reports, but in coeteries this is done privately--in > bars, at parties, but *never* in magazines & on listservs in part on the > nail-that-sticks-out-theory. I'm less interested than I had been before in > private languages and socially closed aesthetic situations--as maybe > everybody should be who doesn't make frequent trips to NYC or SF where > reputations accrue thru assiduous insider trading. > > Wystan, thank you for the de Duve explication. I've only read Pictorial > Nominalism and Duchamp After Kant so I can tell you know the work better than > i do. What am I writing now? Not literature-in-general exactly, but > fiction. > > & I will also follow Kasey's very wise policy of letting 20 (or more) e-mails > appear on this thread before responding again--which will most likely mean > never. > > --jacques > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:59:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Rachel Raffler, in memory In-Reply-To: from "Jacques Debrot" at Aug 27, 2001 11:42:24 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I'm sorry to have to let you know that Rachel Raffler died this week. Rachel was a brilliant young poet and a wonderful person. She took a Creative Writing class with me in 1998 and subsequently published in COMBO. We kept in touch, emailing about once a month, thru this past June. I'm so, so sad about this and don't know many details yet but some of you knew Rachel or had read her poems - a handful of you had specifically written me to say how much you liked them - and I thought it right to let you know. In her last email to me she'd mentioned that she'd decided to volunteer at the Poetry Project, tho I don't know if she ever did. Her poems can be found in COMBOs 3 & 7. And her reading at Live at The Writers House can be found here (Week 10): http://www.english.upenn.edu/~wh/activities/wxpn/10raffler.ram -Mike. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:29:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Silliman's list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi Jacques, I remember Silliman's list. There weren't 160 poets named. There were more like 80-something. The other 80-odd poets referred to in that "160" were those published in In the American Tree, Language Poetries and The Art of Practice. I realize of course that 100 pp. is totally arbitrary. But still ... I guess I'm baffled by your assertion that Ron couldn't possibly have read 16,000 pages of poetry by these people. You mean you don't read at least that much poetry in a year? You don't get a lot of manuscripts in the mail & handed to you at readings & other events by fellow poets? Or write to poets who you've heard about or have read maybe a few things by & request them to send you more? I sort of assumed that was what we all did, especially younger poets who don't have books coming out all the time. As Kenny Goldsmith likes to say, it's largely a "gift culture." It's hard to believe that Ron hadn't read 100 pages by everyone in American Tree and LP (assuming everyone in those anthologies wrote that much, and probably most had, by the time his afterword to Practice was published), and it seems equally far-fetched that he hadn't read 100+ pp. by the people in Practice by the time of its publication in 1994. I'm going over Silliman's list right now, at work, which includes names of 80-something people whose work he loves who are not in the three above-named anthologies. (He does say they're "doing important work," but he also qualifies that, earlier, by saying that it's his own configuration, and that any configuration by another would be different.) Anyway, I'm amazed at how many I'd read at least 100 pages by (by 1994). I'm younger than Ron, and this isn't even my personal pantheon, it's part of his own: Kathy Acker (Great Expectations, Blood & Guts in High School, etc.), Charles Alexander (Hopeful Buildings is at least that long, and was published prior to 94; I also read things of his in manuscript, plus another book published by Segue), Michael Amnasan (he had at least one 100+ page manuscript being passed around that I read in the 80s), Bruce Boone (I may be fudging a bit, probably more like 50-75?, anyway, you never read The Truth About Ted or his collaboration of translations with Robert Gluck, La Fontaine?), Nicole Brossard (Picture Theory), Gerald Burns (I'd read hundreds of pages by him, almost all in manuscript, though he had at least two 100-page books out by 94, Shorter Poems and Letters to Obscure Men), Bill Corbett (many books in print by 94), Lydia Davis (many books in print by 94, hereafter "MBIP"), Christopher Dewdney (MBIP), Barbara Einzig (at least two books in print I'd read by 94, Life Moves Outside being the title I remember), George Evans (I'm sure he had a good sized Coffee House Press book out by that time that I read, or no to be honest skimmed through), Ben Friedlander (MBIP), Ed Friedman (more books since 94, but I'd read the Telephone Book, which was pretty long), Amy Gerstler (lots in print), Michael Gizzi (lots of chaps & Continental Harmony), Robert Gluck (Jack, the Modernist was one of THE books we were all reading at SF State in the 80s, plus the Marsha Poems, Elements of a Coffee Service, Reader), John Godfrey (Dabble and Where the Weather Suits My Clothes), Bob Harrison (I definitely had 100 or nearly 100 pp. in manuscript from him by 94), Leland Hickman (can't remember how long Great Slave Lake Suite is! but, pretty substantial, not to mention fabulous), Crag Hill (several chaps, including this fantastic dictionary book he'd done with images by Elizabeth Was), Andrea Hollowell (Nada says she saw 100 plus ms. pages by her in the 80s, probably so did Ron, I can't say the same, however), Ronald Johnson (please! too easy!), Lawrence Kearny (Five and Streaming and I think several other books out prior to 94, though I admittedly only read them recently), Kevin Killian (a couple of books of stories, plus manuscripts & plays, hundreds of pages!), Joel Lewis (lots in manuscript, but House Rent Boogie and Palookas of the Ozone had both been published by then & I had other manuscripts), Lori Lubeski (a couple of books, probably not 100 pages, but significant amount of work), Bill Luoma (My Trip to New York, which isn't that long, but I'd also read a manuscript by him he sent me by then, no doubt Ron had read several), Harryette Mullen (Trimmings & S*perm*kt both out I think, less than 100, but still, c'mon), Gale Nelson (I'm probably going to misspell his Stare Decis), bp Nichol (the Martyrology, plus!), Maureen Owen (goes w/out saying?) Pat Reed (lots of chaps and Kismet, from O), Jerome Sala (lots of books, his selected might even have been out by 94, maybe not), David Shapiro (lots), Gail Sher (lots), Susan Smith Nash (superamount tons), Gustof Sobin (plenty), Cole Swenson (okay, so I only read Given, but there was lots out there by 94), Lorenzo Thomas (The Bathers collected all or most of his chaps, well over 100 pp.), Chris Tysh & George Tysh (lots of books & chaps, plus the groovy Everyday Life mag), Fred Wah (his selected poems alone is 100 pp., isn't it?), Keith Waldrop (goes w/out saying), Rosmarie Waldrop (gw/os), John Yau (plenty), Geoffrey Young (Subject to Fits, Rocks & Deals). The other people on the list I can't say I read much by (by 1994), but I don't have a real hard time imagining Ron having done that. Or at any rate more than "a few poems." Why is it so hard to believe that people read widely? Or that a lot of their reading might be of material you personally might not be able to get through interlibrary loan or amazon.com? Or that what they read might not somehow matter, significantly, to them? As Nada said last night, it seems to suggest (at least) two possible approaches. One being immersion, which I think is true of Ron, Jim, Nada, myself, my poet friends & a lot of people on this list. Poetry as your environment. The other being more like you're looking at contemporary poetry from the outside, as a kind of field of study. Not that Ron, Jim, me & others don't study it, too. I mean, it's just that that seems like it might be a limit for those not immersed? I think it's true that there are relatively few people on the planet who you could say are immersed in poetry, for whom poetry really does matter, on a day to day basis in any significant way. For the person not immersed in poetry, I can see how that realization might present a "problem" or "crisis" or something. But my life in poetry is not a problem or crisis. It's a particular space or environment I've chosen to inhabit. The relative cultural or art-historical value of Eliot and O'Hara, how various grad students might place O'Hara or read &/or re-evaluate his work, or (my fave academic term) "inoculate" it, tends to be of little consequence to that life. By "life," by the way, I'm not pitching "raw experience" vs. "theory." I mean the "life of the mind," too. Mostly, in fact. Nor do I mean to pitch academics vs. poets (Fagin isn't at all an academic, he just isn't immersed in poetry as it exists today). I'm just seeing that, yeah, Nada's right, there does seem to be a kind of split here, between someone reading a map & making maps based on other maps, and people living in the place itself, who do use maps, but who spend most of the time involved in the environment itself. Gary _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:43:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cadaly Subject: Re: fashion MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT fashion in the 20th century (really, from Worth in the 1880s, but, what they hey) was the history of a movement from dressmakers and costumers to "couturiers" -- it was a mechanization & a corporatization, with a curious relationship to slave labor and international retail merchandizing -- I want to note a couple things. The relationship of poets to the fashion industry was close: Blase Cendrars/Sonia Delaunay, Elsa Shiaparelli's first book was a book of poems, she worked with Cocteau and others, incorporated text of her reviews made into cloth into clothing -- I wonder if perhaps fashion reviews have been a women's criticism -- to decry 20th century "fashion" seems parallel to decrying 20th century fads in art, criticism, etc. The materialist aesthetics of food, clothing, and shelter, cooking, fashion, and decorating, are female-oriented, female-dominated, and not completely "feminized", while cuisine, couture, and construction are perhaps at least returning to something equitable after all that 20th Century hubris. Catherine Daly cadaly@pacbell.net BTW, if anyone can tell me how to get my hands on that Shiaparelli book... > Hey folks there is art and craft in fashion. At least there if the stuff > falls apart it's quite obvious. > > Saluting Karl Lagerfield, > and off to read Vanity Fair, > > Elizabeth > > ps Jim Behrle you are a dear. > > __________________________________ > Elizabeth Treadwell > http://www.poetrypress.com/avec/populace.html > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:10:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: m&r..Beam us up... ...Beam us up, Scottie......we've exploted every inch of this po' planet...there's no sign of life.......CptDrN... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:16:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson Subject: acker, bataille, etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Jacques wrote: But why are so few transgressive or pornological gestures really riveting, humbling, or disturbing? ----- So few of any gestures are! Including Harry Nudel's "phalanx of feminists". Come on guys, can't we all just get along? How is it ok to be so dismissive? I know, it's not. x __________________________________ Elizabeth Treadwell http://www.poetrypress.com/avec/populace.html "Part little Serpents, or odd Flies, or Worms, or any strange Thing" --Aphra Behn _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 15:53:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: poem formed from Custom Spelling Dictionary In-Reply-To: <002d01c12f96$b98fe660$3b6e36d2@01397384> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Richard intoned: > Keith Jones? Come on Aaron. You done it! Pre information Sondheim! Actually it really was Keith that wrote it. I have been doing some tribute= s to Alan Sondheim, in my spare time, though-- here's one: - TResourceManager=E7@ clBlack .. &love you . clMaroon .. clGreen .s o sexy .. clOlive. clNavy,... rocks . clPurple . . clTeal.. stone clGray ... clSilver heart . .. beat once . clLime . .. sex , and , and clYellow . clBlue . clFuchsia . clAqua . marina with her . . . clWhite . .. clScrollBar . clBackground ... clActiveCaption... clInactiveCaption *& hot .. clMenu . arial . ... clWindow.clWindowFrame. viking . .. clMenuText . as she pentagon . ... . = . .. clWindowText.. these .. clCaptionText . clActiveBorder. .. she could not .. . clInactiveBorder .. clAppWorkSpace .. clHighlight. . desparate.. clHighlightText .. oxygen . and & clBtnFace .. clBtnShadow .. water .. ... oak desk .. clGrayText .. . . clBtnText . video .. shot . clInactiveCaptionText .. clBtnHighlight .. . cl3DDkShadow .. cl3DLight sunrise in . clInfoText . info . .. . . in fo . sex . clInfoBk .. clNone = . none=20 Interrupted system call =3D highway Bad file number =3D heartway Permission denied =3D gasway Bad address =3D gasnwash Invalid argument =3D surfway Too many open files =3D safeco Operation would block =3D my way Operation now in progress =3D heartway Operation already in progress =3D sexway Socket operation on nonsocket =3D skinway Destination address required =3D aaron belz way Message too long =3D fishnchips way Protocol wrong type for socket =3D cornrows Protocol not available =3D steampress way Protocol not supported =3D gaseteria Socket not supported =3D 66 per dozen way Operation not supported on socket =3D hardway Protocol family not supported =3D hardon way Address family not supported =3D way way too hard Address already in use =3D atwood Can't assign requested address =3D galway Network is down =3D temporary Network is unreachable =3D dunes way Network dropped connection on reset =3D nudeway Software caused connection abort =3D sexway Connection reset by peer =3D aaron belz way No buffer space available =3D abortion way Socket is already connected =3D driveway Socket is not connected =3D docksway Can't send after socket shutdown =3D duckway Too many references:can't splice =3D masking tape way Connection timed out =3D lipway Connection refused =3D beanpole way Too many levels of symbolic links =3D fairway File name is too long =3D white whey Host is down =3D old way No route to host =3D may day way Directory is not empty =3D say day hey may way Too many processes =3D dogway Too many users =3D yardway Disk quota exceeded =3D downtownway Stale NFS file handle =3D yourway Too many levels of remote in path =3D geoffrey gatzaway Network subsystem is unusable =3D castaway Winsock DLL cannot support this application =3D teamwork Winsock not initialized =3D teamsmirk Host not found =3D holey holey way Non authoritative - host not found =3D roley poley day Non recoverable error =3D bobblehead day at shea Valid name, no data record of requested type =3D payday Not a Winsock error =3D wrongway _ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 17:18:44 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Democratic taste w/ digressions (part 1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/28/01 12:45:16 PM, JDEBROT@AOL.COM writes: << Finally, it's not poetry that I've been converted away from, but coeterie artistic practice. In reality poets in NYC & SF are not at all shy about making aesthetic weather reports, but in coeteries this is done privately--in bars, at parties, but *never* in magazines & on listservs in part on the nail-that-sticks-out-theory. I'm less interested than I had been before in private languages and socially closed aesthetic situations--as maybe everybody should be who doesn't make frequent trips to NYC or SF where reputations accrue thru assiduous insider trading. >> Where's Gary Cooper when you need a good "Yup"? Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:53:46 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: suicide and Plath and substance use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas. I read that in a book I picked up by Alvarez (I think it was in that) who describes her last day: he was one of the last to see her alive. He wrote a whole book on suicide called "The Savage God".(You or others on the List are probably well aware of it.) Look, I've read the book, but (age booze the odd pill popping? - ok its confessional time) has or does affect my memory so I've forgotten the guts of it but you may know the book. His discussion of suicide starts out with a personal memoir of Plath. Actually, squizing at it now, it looks to be a fascinating book: maybe not too scientific...Alvarez has at least a sense of humour. He starts the last chapter with: "After all this, I have to admit that I am a failed suicide."!!! What happenned to Alvarez? Looks as though I might get diverted away from Perec to Alvarez again! From memory the book was interesting but not very uplifting! Very interesting, but I'm sure that its there that I saw the reference to her taking medication. The point being that some anti-depressants, while they work eventually (if they are the "right" drugs), initially either maintain the depression or can intensify the effects. I suppose one day they will be able to control these things more accurately. Will that be progress - is there such a thing? I took anti depressants in 1967 with valium and it semed ages but eventually the depression "lifted". I was 19. I eventually threw away the anti-depressants(orange tablets which were called Nortriptoline). So they work: but more recently I have found that it - any defeat of depression - has to come from my own inner thinking and will power or self-control etc i've found that by anmd large, by utilising positive thinking so to speak, the very deep depression that I suffered for about 5 years has lifted. But during that period (a period of marital separation) I wrote a lot more poetry...so maybe there's something in Alvarez's thesis. The old one (I suppose) connecting creativity with emotional sufferinhg etc (he goes further and calls suicide the Savage God - well aware I presume of his romaticizing stance). Long live surfeit and plethora. But long live the living. Regards, Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Bell" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 7:21 PM Subject: suicide and Plath and substance use This from Emma Yates in the Guardian http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,534006,00.html " He writes that Plath mistakenly swallowed pills which prompted her suicidal feelings and this was the "key factor" in the 1963 tragedy. Although Hughes does not name the particular drug in his letters, he claims that whilst living in America Plath had suffered an adverse reaction to some prescribed pills. When they moved to Britain, the drug was sold under a different name and prescribed by her new doctor who was unaware of her reaction. Hughes writes in the letter, "she was aware of its effects which lasted about three hours... just time enough." I'd like to see a good psychiatric investigation of the actual pharmacology involved but this is a plausible scenario in my experience and sheds new light on possible diagnoses of SP. It also adds another dimension to earlier discussions here regarding substances and poetic expression? Especiaaly interesting in re current fads for youthful recreational use of anti-depressants. tom bell =<}}}}}}}}}****((((((((&&&&&&&&&~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Metaphor/Metonym for health at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm Black Winds Press at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/blackwin.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 15:50:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: HIGHEST PRIORITY!! [eek!] POEMS BY JACQUELINE KENNEDY ONASSIS! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit EVERYTHING STOPS! THE TIDE OF POETRY TURNS. ----------------------------------- From Publishers Weekly: "The Best Loved Poems of Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis have been selected by someone who should know: Caroline Kennedy. While Caroline's two confirmed appearances on the Today Show, a first serial in Good Housekeeping, and further publicity should make this easily the bestselling poetry title of the season, it doesn't hurt that Jackie's taste was excellent. Charming poems from John Clare, Kipling, and a young Jimmy Kennedy are complemented by work from Langston Hughes, Robert Frost and Elizabeth Bishop and by 14 b&w family photos. Caroline Kennedy has organized more than 100 poems into seven sections ("America"; "Adventure" etc.), written short, intimate introductions to each and included a small selection of Jackie's own poems." ----------------------------------- ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN. She was no hick. She ~must~ have read (or been at parties and heard discussion of) ~everyone:~ O'Hara, John . . . Candy Darling! . . . It's only a very carefully pruned representation that would remain confined to Frost, etc. There's no saying. 100 poems in seven sections is a lot. (What might the five unnamed sections be!? [eek!] "New York"!!? "Black Coffee and Toast, Dark" [the only thing she was ever seen to order, by herself, sunglasses, a working girl]) WHAT WILL JACKIE'S POETRY BE LIKE?!!! It makes one cold all over, yet heatful. EVERYTHING CAN CHANGE OVER NIGHT. If Oprah endorsed Joan Retallack . . . ("Jackie's taste was excellent") I look forward to charming Clare poems ("showers of lady smocks so called by toil / When boys sprote gathering sit on stulps" [sic, sic, sic])! "Little Trotty Wagtail" would be a joy to hear on audio, coming from a poet who escaped from a mental asylum and walked all the way from Epping to Northamptonshire! Wayne Koestenbaum must be in intensive care! Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis had the same birthday as John Ashbery and Marcel Duchamp. Fact. PREPARE FOR A COMPLETE REVERSAL OF ALL YOUR EXPECTATIONS. -------------------------------------------------------------- POETS, TITLES, AND READERS LIST FOR THE BEST-LOVED POEMS OF JACQUELINE KENNEDY ONASSIS AUDIOBOOK 1. FOREWORD, by Caroline Kennedy, read by the author 2. AMERICA INTRODUCTION, by Caroline Kennedy, read by the author 3. AMERICA, THE BEAUTIFUL, by Katherine Lee Bates, read by Jennifer Wiltsie 4. FOR JOHN F. KENNEDY HIS INAUGURATION, by Robert Frost, read by Daniel Davis 5. THE GIFT OUTRIGHT, by Robert Frost, read by the author 6. PAUL REVERE’S RIDE, by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, read by Senator Edward Kennedy 7. I HEAR AMERICA SINGING, by Walt Whitman, read by B.D. Wong 8. LET AMERICA BE AMERICA AGAIN, by Langston Hughes, read by Ruben Santiago-Hudson 9. BROWN RIVER, SMILE, by Jean Toomer, read by Viola Davis 10. FIRST POEMS INTRODUCTION, by Caroline Kennedy, read by the author 11. FIRST FIG, by Edna St. Vincent Millay, read by Caroline Kennedy 12. SECOND FIG, by Edna St. Vincent Millay, read by Caroline Kennedy 13. FOG, by Carl Sandburg, read by Viola Davis 14. AT THE ANCIENT POND, by Basho, read by Daniel Davis 15. HOW RELUCTANTLY, by Basho, read by Jennifer Wiltsie 16. THE LAND OF COUNTERPANE, by Robert Louis Stevenson, read by Viola Davis 17. THE SWING, by Robert Louis Stevenson, read by Ruben Santiago-Hudson 18. BED IN SUMMER, by Robert Louis Stevenson, read by B.D. Wong 19. TEDDY BEAR’S PICNIC, by Jimmy Kennedy, read by Jennifer Wiltsie 20. THREE PONIES, by Arthur Guiterman, read by Claire Bloom 21. THE YAK, by Theodore Roethke, read by Ruben Santiago-Hudson 22. GRIZZLY BEAR, by Mary Austin, read by Byron Jennings 23. THE ELEPHANT, by Hilaire Belloc, read by Claire Bloom 24. THE LITTLE TURTLE, by Vachel Lindsay, read by Jennifer Wiltsie 25. DOGS AND WEATHER, by Winifred Welles, read by Viola Davis 26. LITTLE TROTTY WAGTAIL, by John Clare, read by B.D. Wong 27. THE OWL AND THE PUSSY-CAT, by Edward Lear, read by Claire Bloom 28. THE CROCODILE, by Lewis Carroll, read by Ruben Santiago-Hudson 29. FIREFLIES IN THE GARDEN, by Robert Frost, read by Daniel Davis 30. THE ROSE FAMILY, by Robert Frost, read by Byron Jennings 31. WHO HAS SEEN THE WIND?, by Christina Rossetti, read by Claire Bloom 32. TARANTELLA, by Hilaire Belloc, read by Ruben Santiago-Hudson 33. SHERWOOD, by Alfred Noyes, read by Daniel Davis 34. ANNABEL LEE, by Edgar Allan Poe, read by Byron Jennings 35. SOME KEEP THE SABBATH GOING TO CHURCH, by Emily Dickenson, read by Jennifer Wiltsie 36. HOPE IS THE THING WITH FEATHERS, by Emily Dickinson, read by Ruben Santiago-Hudson 37. MOTHER TO SON, by Langston Hughes, read by Viola Davis 38. THE RED WHEELBARROW, by William Carlos Williams, read by Jennifer Wiltsie 39. PSALM 23, read by B.D. Wong 40. LUKE 2: 1—14, read by Byron Jennings 41. A VISIT FROM ST. NICHOLAS, by Clement Clarke Moore, read by Daniel Davis 42. ADVENTURE INTRODUCTION, by Caroline Kennedy, read by the author 43. SKYE BOAT SONG, by Jimmy Kennedy, read by Byron Jennings 44. CARGOES, by John Masefield, read by Byron Jennings 45. SEA-FEVER, by John Masefield, read by B.D. Wong 46. HUNTING-SONG OF THE SEEONEE PACK, by Rudyard Kipling, read by Claire Bloom 47. TABLEAU, by Countee Cullen, read by Ruben Santiago-Hudson 48. MERRY-GO-ROUND, by Langston Hughes, read by Viola Davis 49. THE ROAD NOT TAKEN, by Robert Frost, read by Jennifer Wiltsie 50. SONG, by John Donne, read by Ruben Santiago-Hudson 51. RICHARD III, I, i, 1—3, by William Shakespeare, read by Byron Jennings 52. THE ISLES OF GREECE, by George Gordon, Lord Byron, read by Daniel Davis 53. ULYSSES, by Alfred Lord Tennyson, read by Byron Jennings 54. ITHACA, by Constantine P. Cavafy, read by Jennifer Wiltsie 55. HENRY V, IV, iii, 40—67 (ST. CRISPIN’S DAY SPEECH), by William Shakespeare, read by Byron Jennings 56. ESCAPE INTRODUCTION, by Caroline Kennedy, read by the author 57. THE FLOWERS, by Robert Louis Stevenson, read by Claire Bloom 58. BEHIND STOWE, by Elizabeth Bishop, read by Viola Davis 59. IN JUST, by E. E. Cummings, read by B.D. Wong 60. THE PASTURE, by Robert Frost, read by Byron Jennings 61. PORTRAIT BY A NEIGHBOUR, by Edna St. Vincent Millay, read by Jennifer Wiltsie 62. THE SONG OF WANDERING AENGUS, by William Butler Yeats, read by Daniel Davis 63. THE LAKE ISLE OF INNISFREE, by William Butler Yeats, read by Byron Jennings 64. THE TEMPEST, V, i, 104—110 (ARIEL’S SONG), by William Shakespeare, read by Claire Bloom 65. THE MAY-WINE, by Emily Dickinson, read by Viola Davis 66. INDIAN SUMMER, by Emily Dickinson, read by Jennifer Wiltsie 67. STOPPING BY WOODS ON A SNOWY EVENING, by Robert Frost, read by B.D. Wong 68. KUBLA KHAN, by Samuel Taylor Coleridge, read by Daniel Davis 69. THE DAWN, by William Butler Yeats, read by Claire Bloom 70. SAILING TO BYZANTIUM, by William Butler Yeats, read by Byron Jennings 71. OF MERE BEING, by Wallace Stevens, read by B.D. Wong 72. ROMANCE AND LOVE INTRODUCTION, by Caroline Kennedy, read by the author 73. THE SONG OF SOLOMON 2: 8—16, read by Jennifer Wiltsie 74. PARADISE LOST, BOOK IV, 639—658, by John Milton, read by Ruben Santiago-Hudson 75. ROMEO AND JULIET, III, ii, 17—31, by William Shakespeare, read by Claire Bloom 76. SONNET XVIII, by William Shakespeare, read by Daniel Davis 77. SONNET XXIX, by William Shakespeare, read by Byron Jennings 78. SONNET CXVI, by William Shakespeare, read by B.D. Wong 79. THE BARGAIN, by Sir Philip Sidney, read by Viola Davis 80. THE PASSIONATE SHEPHERD TO HIS LOVE, by Christopher Marlowe, read by B.D. Wong 81. HER REPLY, by Sir Walter Raleigh, read by Claire Bloom 82. SHE WALKS IN BEAUTY, by George Gordon, Lord Byron, read by Byron Jennings 83. DR. FAUSTUS, SCENE XIII, by Christopher Marlowe, read by Daniel Davis 84. THE HILL, by Rupert Brooke, read by Daniel Davis 85. THE VASE OF PERFUME, by Chang Wu-chien, read by Viola Davis 86. WHEN A BEGGAR BEHOLDS YOU..., by Anonymous, read by Byron Jennings 87. SOMEWHERE I HAVE NEVER TRAVELLED, GLADLY BEYOND, by E. E. Cummings, read by Ruben Santiago-Hudson 88. FOR C. K. AT HIS CHRISTENING, by Daniel Lawrence Kelleher, read by Byron Jennings 89. A PRAYER IN SPRING, by Robert Frost, read by Claire Bloom 90. CORINTHIANS 13: 1—13, read by Ruben Santiago-Hudson 91. REFLECTION INTRODUCTION, by Caroline Kennedy, read by the author 92. ECCLESIASTES 3: 1—8, read by Claire Bloom 93. PRAYER FOR PEACE, by St. Francis of Assisi, read by Viola Davis 94. SONNET ON HIS BLINDNESS, by John Milton, read by Daniel Davis 95. DEATH, BE NOT PROUD, by John Donne, read by Daniel Davis 96. OZYMANDIAS, by Percy Bysshe Shelley, read by Byron Jennings 97. HIS PILGRIMAGE, by Sir Walter Raleigh, read by B.D. Wong 98. ODE ON A GRECIAN URN, by John Keats, read by Claire Bloom 99. ANTIGONE, ODE I, by Sophocles, read by B.D. Wong 100. AGAMEMNON, ACT I, by Aeschylus, read by Jennifer Wiltsie 101. OLYMPIAN ODE II, by Pindar, read by Claire Bloom 102. MAGPIES IN PICARDY, by T. P. Cameron Wilson, read by B.D. Wong 103. AFTERMATH, by Siegfried Sassoon, read by Jennifer Wiltsie 104. THE SECOND COMING, by William Butler Yeats, read by Ruben Santiago-Hudson 105. CHOOSE SOMETHING LIKE A STAR, by Robert Frost, read by Daniel Davis 106. ONE ART, by Elizabeth Bishop, read by Claire Bloom 107. THE NEGRO SPEAKS OF RIVERS, by Langston Hughes, read by Ruben Santiago-Hudson 108. ACQUAINTED WITH THE NIGHT, by Robert Frost, read by Byron Jennings 109. THE TRULY GREAT, by Stephen Spender, read by Claire Bloom 110. FOR A POET, by Countee Cullen, read by Viola Davis 111. HE WISHES FOR THE CLOTHS OF HEAVEN, by William Butler Yeats, read by B.D. Wong 112. MATTHEW 5: 1—10, read by Jennifer Wiltsie 113. IN HER OWN WORDS INTRODUCTION, by Caroline Kennedy, read by the author 114. SEA JOY, by Jacqueline Bouvier, read by Jennifer Wiltsie 115. THOUGHTS, by Jacqueline Bouvier, read by Jennifer Wiltsie 116. MEANWHILE IN MASSACHUSETTS, by Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy, read by Caroline Kennedy -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oprah can do it! If Oprah were merely to ~turn her face~ a few degrees in the direction of--- Tina Darragh--- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:14:52 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ammonides diodoros Subject: address change Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Poetics Friends, My AOL address is now inactive, so please send any backchannel correspondence to my new Hotmail account. Thanks, Ammonides _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 16:40:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: 100 URDU POETS! (audio) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://mushaira.org/poets.shtml [note impromptu audience feedback at poetry readings] Aadil Lucknawi Aalamtab Tashna Ahmed Faraz Aijaz Rahmani Amjad Islam Amjad Anjum Rahbar Anwer Masood Anwer Sha'oor Athar Raaz Azhar Inayati Baikal Utsahi Dilawar Figar Farrukh Z. Gilani Ghous Mathravi Hasan Rizvi Hayat Warsi Himayat Ali Shaair Inayat Ali Khan Jaazib Qureshi Jamal Ihsani Jamil-ud-Din Aali Javed Ahmed John Elia Kaif Azimabadi Khumar Bara Bankvi Kaleem Ajiz Kishan Bihari Noor Majrooh Sultanpuri Manzar Ayyubi Manzar Bhopali Malikzada Manzoor Mauj Rampuri Mohinder Singh Bedi Mohsin Ihsan Mohsin Bhopali Munir Niazi Muzaffar Razmi Najma Khan Naseem Nakhat Nasir Zaidi Nawaz Deobandi Noor Indori Noor Jahan Sarwat Obaidullah Aleem Parveen Shakir Pirzada Qasim Popular Meeruthi Qamar Raees Qateel Shifai Raees Rampuri Raghib Muradabadi Rashid Noor Razi Akhtar Shauq Saaqi Amrohwi Sabiha Saba Saghar Khayyami Salim Kausar Sarfraz Abad Sehba Akhter Shahida Hasan Syed Ali Amrohwi Tariq Sabzwari Tasneem Siddiqui Ummeed Faazli Zafar Iqbal Zahid Naqvi Zameer Jafri Zia-ul-Haq Qasmi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 23:04:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: call for submissions Comments: To: webartery@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Experimental Life Writing and/or Drawing The next issue of Metaphor/Metonym for Health = http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm will publish = experimental poetry, art. and webpoetry on illness (or life as illness = or life as healing). Submissions will be accepted via email = trbell@home.com or snail mail 2518 Wellington Place, Murfreesboro, TN = 37128, USA. Deadline will be November 1. I'm hoping to strike the wide = range between 'poems by sick people' and 'great' literature and = particularly interested in stylistic innovations (for you, that is) or = combinations of styles (such as visual poetry). Each submission should = be accompanied by a brief note on circumstances and how style = facilitated the process of production or creation of the piece. I am taking off here from Marion Milner (Joanna Field) when she says, = "It was the discovery that it was possible at times to produce drawings = or sketches in an entirely different way from any that I had been = taught..." (_On Not Being Able to Paint_, NY, IUP, 1957). I am looking = for work that lets "hand and eye do exactly what pleased them without = any conscious working to apreconceived intention" in the Eastern = European sense of writing process as experiment, hazard, a try. Out of my own "perverse" interest at the moment in work that deals with = confronting suicide or the borders of sanity/in as in the Bada Shanren = perplexity, I'm particularly intrigued by these two questions, but not = limited to these areas. tom bell =3D<}}}}}}}}}****((((((((&&&&&&&&&~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Metaphor/Metonym for health at = http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm Black Winds Press at = http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/blackwin.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 07:19:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: m&r...Pome for the Isreali Army... Don't use force......pull the trigger.....softly.... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 08:58:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: m&r...transgressive.....um... mortgage delinquencies......mobile homes.....highest level 25 yrs... nikei.....10979.76.....17 year low... transgressive.....did u say....transgressive... D(md)rN... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 08:16:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Broder Subject: Ear Inn Readings--September 8, 2001 Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The Ear Inn Readings Saturdays at 3:00 326 Spring Street New York City FREE WE WILL BE ON HIATUS FOR LABOR DAY ON SEPTEMBER 1. SEE YOU BACK AT THE EAR INN ON SEPTEMBER 8, 2001 Readers on Sept 8 will include MYRON HARDY and MICHELE KOTLER. Our Open Mike will become First Saturdays Open Mike at the Ear Inn. We will do Open Mike on the first Saturday reading of every month, starting with September 8. Open Mike at the Ear Inn will only be on First Saturdays in the fall. Come read one poem! Or several shorter poems, up to one full page total. The Ear Inn is one block north of Canal Street about as far west as you can go. The closest trains are the 1-9 to Canal Street @ Varick, the A to Canal Street @ Sixth Ave, or the C-E to Spring Street@ Sixth Ave. For additional information, contact Michael Broder or Jason Schneiderman at (212) 246-5074. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 14:08:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: m&r..transgressive...um... ....transgressive...um....i love it....when u speak dirty.... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 15:03:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Wang, Mary L" Subject: FW: EPR seeks book reviews MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Electronic Poetry Review (EPR), at www.poetry.org, seeks original book > reviews of 750-1250 words for the following new poetry titles for our > November 2001 issue. > > * Zirconia, Chelsea Minnis-Fence Books > * Pity the Bathtub It's Forced Embrace of the Human Form, Matthea > Harvey-Alice James Books > * The Chime, Cort Day-Alice James Books > * Utopic, Claudia Keelan-Alice James Books > * As for Dream, Saskia Hamilton-Graywolf Press > * What to Tip the Boatman?, Cleopatra Mathis-Sheep Meadow Press > * Love and Scorn: New and Selected Poems, Carol Frost-Northwestern > University Press > * Against Love Poetry, Eavan Boland-Norton > * Felt, Alice Fulton-Norton > * Rhapsody in Plain Yellow, Marilyn Chin-Norton > * Shadow of Heaven, Ellen Bryant Voigt-Norton > * The Long Marriage, Maxine Kumin-Norton > * Wrong, Reginald Shepherd-University of Pittsburgh Press > * Then, Suddenly, Lynn Emanuel-University of Pittsburgh Press > * Walking Light, Stephen Dunn-BOA Editions Ltd. > > If you are interested in contributing a review to EPR, please contact me > at mary.l.wang@schwab.com by September 12, 2001 with your first and second > choices and a short informal biography. > > > Thanks, > > Mary Wang > Book Review Editor > Electronic Poetry Review > Visit us at www.poetry.org > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 16:35:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kiwi Subject: New Green Integer reviews Comments: To: "Undisclosed Recipients"@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The new Publishers Weekly contains short reviews of two Green Integer = titles: "Some exclamatory and heartfelt, others mordant, whimsical or surreal, = the pieces in Suites by Federico Garacia lorca (1989-1936) are early, = short-lined poetic sequences, here translated by the prolific Jerome = Rothenberg. "In the little woodlets / with their purples & magnesiums / = the princesitas jumping /are baby sparkadillos." Many of these component = poems and versets by Spain's master have never before appeared in = English. (Green Integer, $12.95 paper 240 p ISBN 1-892295-61-X) The restless, energetic verse of Prague's surrealist writer Vitezslav = Nezval (1900-1958) should delight and excite American readers; the urban = rambles, lists and erotic promises of his Antilyrik & Other Poems echo = Whitman, Apollinaire and Rimbaud: "Tell me you reed bouquet / What city = in the guts was I just crossing." The above Jerome Rothenberg and Czech = expatriate Milos Sovak accompany their translation with a biographical = postscript. (Green Integer, $11.95, paper 160 p ISBN 1-892295-79-X) Those on this list may purchase copies of these books at a 20% discount. = Send a check or money order, made out to Douglas Messerli for the price = plus $1.25 for postage. Send to Green Integer, 6026 Wilshire Blvd., Los Angeles, CA 90036. And please visit out website at = www.greeninteger.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:02:57 +0100 Reply-To: Robin Hamilton Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: A Pact, for Democratic Taste MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Michael Magee" > I've written about Homage to > Mistress Bradstreet, and I used to LOVE "Sonnets to Chris": Michael: A bit off the point -- I first came across the "Chris" (rather than "Lise") version in the Collected Poems edition. Presumably Berryman (sic? not the publishers?). It threw me then and it still throws me. I prefer the original (-ly published) version. That had already been left to cool for -- what? -- 15 years -- so presumably Berryman's use of "Lise" then (1965?) was 'deliberate'. Be interested in what you (and everyone else) thinks on this. Robin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 15:02:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Nudel = Traficant? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > we've exploted every inch of this po' Yes, you sure has exploted it. Don't let the door hit you on the way up! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 16:47:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: Re: The Swell Edit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris, I must thank you for posting this about Cabinet. I had heard of the Christian Bok sci-fi language from a Double Happiness reading flyer, but couldn't attend. So, I ordered Cab' # 1. Best reading, listening para-poetry experience I've had in days. The CD of Charles reading his babel, and Bok's Schwitters, and McCaffrey were tremendously liberating for me,--- and, all in all, the issue's focus on private languages/glossolalia was just what I needed. It was like a salubrious spa salt wrap, and my skin is more lustrous and vital, my pores blinking. Thanks. Jeffrey Jullich -------------------------------------------- Poetics List Administration wrote: > jennifer calkins wrote - > > > Andrew Maxwell mentioned the journal "Cabinet"--any > > suggestions for where I could pick up a copy? > > Cabinet has a web site at , > which includes profiles of all issues to date. It's a very > high-production magazine with an impressive breadth of reference; > I strongly recommend it. Issue no. 1 contains prose by Tan Lin, a > piece by Christian Bok on inventing alien languages for Star Trek, > a CD insert (including Bok's rapid performance of Schwitters' Ursonate, > as well as works by Charles Bernstein and Steve McCaffery), a piece > on Oyvind Fahlstrom and invented language, work by Xu Bing, and > something of especial interest for readers of Spicer: an article > on the 19th century psychic Helene Smith, many of whose trances > "took her to the planet Mars" and were issued, with translation > by the spirit Esenale, in Martian: > > Dode ne haudan te meche metiche Astane ke de me veche... > > dode, this; ne, is; ce, the; haudan, house; te, of the; > meche, great; metiche man; Astane, Astane; ke, whom; de, > thou; me, hast; veche, seen... > > Chris > > Christopher W. Alexander > poetics list moderator ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:36:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: HOAX: DEBROT/ASHBERY INTERVIEW ON READ.ME Comments: To: Gary Sullivan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has this "deceit" been publicly acknowledged? Have you 'fessed up? (On the List, etc. I'm a little bit Rip van Winkel-ish in having missed about a year and a half while underground. The thing to be in doubt about now is: the existence of Jacques Debrot. "Jacques Debrot" is the name of the cultural minister of Antilles.) The poems are very masterfully done. I suspected that they were forgeries, too, mainly because they combine chronologically different styles of John's. The interview too does a very good job of reproducing certain speech patterns from other interviews of his,--- but, of course, there are then things there that John would never in a thousand years allow his name to be attached to. --- Jeffrey ------------------------- Gary Sullivan wrote: > Hi Jeffrey, > > Yes, I knew the interview was a hoax; I saw Jacques read it last year at the > Project. > > I asked Jacques if he'd send along "Ashbery" poems, too, but he never wound > up doing that, so I got someone else to do that. > > Thanks, > > Gary ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:58:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: READ.ME DECEIVES ON-LINE BIBLIOGRAPHY Comments: To: Gary Sullivan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Are you aware that http://www.literaryhistory.com/20thC/Ashbery.htm unwittingly gives the URL for your falsification, alongside authentic materials? Have you contacted them to make them aware of their error, or was it your intention to raise your dishonesty to that next level? ------------------------------------- Gary Sullivan wrote: > Hi Jeffrey, > > Yes, I knew the interview was a hoax; I saw Jacques read it last year at the > Project. > > I asked Jacques if he'd send along "Ashbery" poems, too, but he never wound > up doing that, so I got someone else to do that. > > Thanks, > > Gary ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 15:37:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Re: The Swell Edit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeffrey, > I must thank you for posting this about Cabinet. You are most welcome. If glossolalia interests, you might look, too, into the work of Aaron Williamson. He performed in Buffalo and Toronto last year, and I was utterly taken with him. His piece Hearing Things is available on the web at - though I must say that, elaborately set, it is less physically immediate than what he did here, for which the sole prop was his own body. I could only describe the work in contradictions, as a sort of "occluded vaticination" or "orphic stoppage" improvised, as he later told me, on the basis of memorized texts - poems, snippets of childish rhyme, the spellings of various words including his own name. In Toronto, he did use an old wooden chair, which he dragged part-way across the floor with his belt. It sounds simple - even comically so - but the difficulty of his manner was such that the action not only suggested but in fact disclosed a tremendous play of force and counter-force. He's much more directly inspired by Artaud than most Canadian and American poets/performers - more "athletic" in Artaud's sense, and much closer to the cusp of the irrational; "metaphysical" as Susan Howe would say. Really sort of frightening, and I loved it. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:18:54 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: Free CanLit Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII hi, this will interest those teaching CanLit or Post-Colonial. cheers, Kevin ps. David Bromige has published with Brick > > > > Hello all! brick.books@sympatico.ca > > Brick Books celebrated its 25th anniversary in the year 2000 with > special readings in Victoria, Vancouver, Edmonton, Toronto and Halifax. > Now that those celebrations are over, of course I am looking for > another project. > > I am wanting to broaden our profile in the education field, that is, > universities, colleges, high schools. More and more our books are being > adopted for courses; also individual poems from some of our books are > being requested for use in high school and college textbooks and > anthologies. I have also realized that English grad students are > teaching courses and that some are able to choose their own texts to > use. > > But how do they find out about the wonderful poetry books from Brick > Books? After all, we did publish Anne Carson's first book of poetry in > Canada - Short Talks; I'm sure you know that Anne has just won the > inaugural Griffin Poetry Prize for $40,000. One of our co-founders, Don > McKay, was one of the three finalists for this prize. > > I am contacting all of you for your help. If you or any of your > friends/colleagues/grad students would like to have free samples of any > of our Brick books, please just let me know. I would of course prefer > that anyone interested would be serious about having these books and > about Canlit rather than just happy to get free books. > > You can view all of our books at our website at www.brickbooks.ca. We > have compiled a list of the top ten books being used in course > adoptions. And there is lots of news about Brick Books and the authors > and reading tour information too. > > Thanks for your continuing interest in Brick Books. Did you know about > our 25th anniversary anthology edited by Stan Dragland? It's called New > Life in Dark Seas: Brick Books 25 and contains one poem from each of > the authors published by Brick Books since 1975. > > Sincerely, > > > > Kitty Lewis brick.books@sympatico.ca > General Manager > Brick Books ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 03:44:03 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: billy little Subject: late grate Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 friends, I'd like to say there are no great poets only great poems and for themost part even the "greatest" poets that "everybody" has heard of, are remembered for one poem or one book. I agree with Dodie, Jacques primarily argues from the conservative and occasionally from the reactionary side of the aisle. And speaking of reactionaries, I agree with Ezra Pound: it takes one to know one, so I'd give more weight to Dodie's comments because I've seen more "great" work from her. But I must confess, I've been blessed with direct contact with a few of the "great" poets including Muriel Rukeyser and Charles Olson And doubly blessed to be friends of Allen Ginsberg, Ed Dorn, Robert Duncan, Bob Creeley and Robin Blaser and what makes these poets great above and beyond the great poems they've written is their concern for the art in general and encouragement of and accessability to other practitioners and promotion of their work. And as far as greatness goes I'd have to say that Phil Whalen is the Emily Dickinson of our day and she's the greatest. -- _______________________________________________ Get your free email from http://mymail.av.iname.com Powered by Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:17:47 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ammonides diodoros Subject: Jacques and John Comments: cc: jj20@columbia.edu, jdebrot@aol.com, gpsullivan@hotmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Jeffrey Jullich asked, in reference to the formal citation on the "Literary History" website of Jacques Debrot's exciting interview with John Ashbery: >Have you contacted them to make them aware of their error, or was it >your >intention to raise your dishonesty to that next level? Two questions. 1) Should that be "raise" or should that be "lower"? (It seems to me that one could make a case for this interview occupying a decidedly higher ground vis a vis the soiled and dreadful "level" at which "Authorial Stardom" and "Literary History" are fused by the superglue of ideology [works on all surfaces!] into a kind of Minotaur who has his way with all the poetry youths and maidens who stumble into its manure-ridden labyrinth. I mean, excuse me for that drawn out sentence, but one should remember all those nasty things they said about the lovely boy Chatterton, that saintly little Theseus...) 2) If you asked John Ashbery for his opinion concerning his interview with Jacques Debrot, do you think he would bounce and scowl like Jeffrey Jullich at its "dishonesty", or do you think he would clap his trout-shaped glass hands with delight? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:31:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: m&r...exploted... ....exploted...a phalanx of feminists' project... . ...."don't answer him...or he'll ne'er go away." . ....love the cockaroach...."after you kill him"....the Kerouac Disembodied...moves east side... . ....yes, Mr Zulu...there were rumors of life forms.....in a galaxy far far away...this po' world... . Doc..don't call me Doctor..N.. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 15:51:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson Subject: Outlet orders & info Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Outlet (7) Heroines has gone into its third printing as of today. Those of you with standing orders received since August 1 will receive your copies next week. As this issue keeps selling out, please order by sending $5 (checks to ET Jackson) and we'll send you Outlet (7) if it's still available, otherwise Outlet (8) (which will feature Leslie Scalapino, Kevin Killian, Jimmie Durham & Norma Cole among others) in December. Thank you all. Elizabeth Treadwell Double Lucy Books & Outlet Magazine PO Box 9013 Berkeley CA 94709 USA http://users.lanminds.com/dblelucy _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 19:56:45 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: Re: HOAX: DEBROT/ASHBERY INTERVIEW ON READ.ME MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/30/01 3:12:47 AM, jj20@COLUMBIA.EDU writes: << "Jacques Debrot" is the name of the cultural minister of Antilles. >> That's the old man. Grandad was Cola Debrot, at one time governor of the Dutch Antilles & novelist--central figure, in Dutch literature, of the plantation novel. I float on income from casinos in Aruba; the surplus I use to fund reactionary literature. jacques jr. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:26:07 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Massoni Subject: Re: HIGHEST PRIORITY!! [eek!] POEMS BY JACQUELINE KENNEDY ONASSIS! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit did not john-john read #54 at Jackie's funeral ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:11:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: You a poem of human potential -- no virus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit www.daemen.edu/pages/ggatza/you www.daemen.edu/pages/ggatza/you www.daemen.edu/pages/ggatza/you The poem is about the potential nature of the human spirit. The idea was to take a relevant poem off of the page, print it on objects and place them around a large, actively populated area. This would have the reader engage a poem, in all of its disgusting glory, on a form that would be easy to digest and reflect the area it was in. This blends a garden walking tour with a fun house, having exhibits of a large poem, having no real beginning or real ending, [as in traditional literature, this negates the linear narrative] operating as one over a large space so the reader could engage the poem from any angle. This method also allows for multiple meanings and readings as all interactive texts have differing entry and exit points Daemen College August 24, 2001 - September 10,2001 Use the Home page for the Cyber Café or go to this page www.daemen.edu/pages/ggatza/you and have a virtual tour of the physical poem Geoffrey Gatza editor BlazeVOX2k1 http://vorplesword.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 22:43:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: suicide and Plath and substance use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard, the reason I posted the article was that anti-depressants are much more complicated than people realize. It's not a black/white kind of thing and as you point out doctors are only now starting to understand what they do. What it might turn out to mean though is that until that particular piece of information is ferreted out, romantic speculations about Plath are no more than that. tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "richard.tylr" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 7:53 PM Subject: Re: suicide and Plath and substance use > Thomas. I read that in a book I picked up by Alvarez (I think it was in > that) who describes her last day: he was one of the last to see her alive. > He wrote a whole book on suicide called "The Savage God".(You or others on > the List are probably well aware of it.) Look, I've read the book, but (age > booze the odd pill popping? - ok its confessional time) has or does affect > my memory so I've forgotten the guts of it but you may know the book. His > discussion of suicide starts out with a personal memoir of Plath. Actually, > squizing at it now, it looks to be a fascinating book: maybe not too > scientific...Alvarez has at least a sense of humour. He starts the last > chapter with: "After all this, I have to admit that I am a failed > suicide."!!! > What happenned to Alvarez? Looks as though I might get diverted away from > Perec to Alvarez again! From memory the book was interesting but not very > uplifting! Very interesting, but I'm sure that its there that I saw the > reference to her taking medication. The point being that some > anti-depressants, while they work eventually (if they are the "right" > drugs), initially either maintain the depression or can intensify the > effects. I suppose one day they will be able to control these things more > accurately. Will that be progress - is there such a thing? > I took anti depressants in 1967 with valium and it semed ages but > eventually the depression "lifted". I was 19. I eventually threw away the > anti-depressants(orange tablets which were called Nortriptoline). So they > work: but more recently I have found that it - any defeat of depression - > has to come from my own inner thinking and will power or self-control etc > i've found that by anmd large, by utilising positive thinking so to speak, > the very deep depression that I suffered for about 5 years has lifted. But > during that period (a period of marital separation) I wrote a lot more > poetry...so maybe there's something in Alvarez's thesis. The old one (I > suppose) connecting creativity with emotional sufferinhg etc (he goes > further and calls suicide the Savage God - well aware I presume of his > romaticizing stance). > Long live surfeit and plethora. But long live the living. Regards, > Richard. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Thomas Bell" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 7:21 PM > Subject: suicide and Plath and substance use > > > This from Emma Yates in the Guardian > http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,534006,00.html > > " He writes that Plath mistakenly swallowed pills which prompted her > suicidal feelings and this was the "key factor" in the 1963 tragedy. > Although Hughes does not name the particular drug in his letters, he claims > that whilst living in America Plath had suffered an adverse reaction to some > prescribed pills. When they moved to Britain, the drug was sold under a > different name and prescribed by her new doctor who was unaware of her > reaction. Hughes writes in the letter, "she was aware of its effects which > lasted about three hours... just time enough." > > > > I'd like to see a good psychiatric investigation of the actual pharmacology > involved but this is a plausible scenario in my experience and sheds new > light on possible diagnoses of SP. It also adds another dimension to > earlier discussions here regarding substances and poetic expression? > Especiaaly interesting in re current fads for youthful recreational use of > anti-depressants. > > > > tom bell > > =<}}}}}}}}}****((((((((&&&&&&&&&~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Metaphor/Metonym for health at > http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm > > Black Winds Press at > http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/blackwin.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 03:04:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: m&r....be... Poetry is the case 'this' case is not.... Poetry is the case 'writing poetry'...this is not the case 'writing poetry'..this is the case that is not the case 'write po' AlanSondheim-JohnAshber(r)y are the case 'write poetry'...Drn, Mr. Spaak, is the case that is not the case 'write po' He is not the case of 'write po'...he is the case that is not the case thereof...he is the case that is the case that annoys Jordan Davis..Jordan Davis is the case that is Jordan Davis...Jordan Davis is the case that Jordan Davis imagines he is the case of...Jordan Davis is the case that imagines he is the case that is annoyed by the case of DRn that is the case of not 'write po' This our play...This peapod our players...Midsummer...Fools Be...The case that is was & to..... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:25:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: SEPTEMBER SPECIAL OFFER at the trAce Online Writing School (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 13:26:47 +0000 From: trace@ntu.ac.uk To: sondheim@panix.com Subject: SEPTEMBER SPECIAL OFFER at the trAce Online Writing School Take a six-week writing course at trAce for just 100 pounds sterling instead of 150 pounds sterling. 1/3 OFF fees for the first 50 students to sign up for any course in Series 4, starting 8th October 2001. Book by September 30th. "The trAce online writing courses are the perfect way to brush up your skills, develop new ones you didn't know you had, and make new friends with like-minded people." Student, July 2001 Places are available on the following courses. See below for more details. * Basic Website Design for Writers/Artists, Randy Adams * Searching the Web: Research For Writers, Helen Whitehead * Get Your Book Published, Graham Seal * Writing Children's Fiction, Karen King * Novel Writing, Jean Chapman * Short Fiction, Kate Pullinger * Travel Writing for Fun and Profit, Caron James * Writing an Online Family History, Liz Swift * Hypertext and its Double, Talan Memmott * Beginning Screenwriting, Bonnie O'Neill * Getting Serious: How to Revise Your Poems, Nicole Pekarske Hunt * Animated Poetry in Flash, Peter Howard * Managing and teaching web-based creative writing projects(Starter), Sue Thomas GENERAL * Basic Website Design for Writers/Artists Randy Adams This course will guide students step by step through the maze of Hypertext Markup Language, webpage design, and going online. Suitable for absolute beginners, this course will stress creativity and experimentation. Extended exercises will be offered for those students who feel comfortable tinkering with the basic material. * Searching the Web: Research For Writers Helen Whitehead Find out how to use the Web for research: we will look at ten top tips for better searching. Students will learn how to evaluate websites and their content and how to avoid rubbish. Students will find out how to use portals, links pages, search engines, directories and meta-engines. * Get Your Book Published Graham Seal An introduction to the realities and practices of the global book publishing and book-selling industry with a view to teaching how best to take advantage of its rapid changes to get your book(s) published. The emphasis is on non-fiction, but the techniques taught are equally applicable to fiction. FICTION * Writing Children's Fiction Karen King We will explore the various markets for children’s books and guidance will be given on how to aim at a specific market, get an agent and find a publisher. Special attention will be given to the skills needed, such as vocabulary, dialogue, creating characters children can identify with and writing for different age groups. * Novel Writing Jean Chapman This course is designed by a novelist to help students avoid basic errors in constructing a long manuscript. The aim is to give pointers progressing from original idea to finished manuscript. The course will also aim to make new writers aware of the business side of publishing today. * Short Fiction Kate Pullinger This course is for students interested in writing prose fiction and, in particular, short stories. It is suitable for both beginners and the more experienced. The emphasis is on developing the editorial skills crucial to good writing. The focus of the workshop will be on the students' own work. "This tutor is excellent!" Student, July 2001 NON-FICTION * Travel Writing for Fun and Profit Caron James A step-by-step guide for travel lovers who want to write about their experiences for magazines and newspapers. The course will teach how to research, construct and write travel articles and how to get them published. Learn about the different types of travel writing and how to make your story appealing and unique. * Writing an Online Family History Liz Swift Explore exciting ways of approaching the creation of a family history for a digital environment. Students will develop and use creative writing, research and design skills, to document aspects of their own and their family's lives on a website. NEW MEDIA * Hypertext and its Double Talan Memmott This advanced course examines the formal, structural, and narrative formation of various literary hypermedia projects. Primary focus is placed upon performative language, spatial aspects of the hypermediated document, and the author/reader relationship to the content "application". Students critique, discuss & create work. SCRIPTWRITING * Beginning Screenwriting Bonnie O'Neill An introduction to the elements of the art of writing for film and video. Students will develop their story ideas with attention to tridimensional characters and the three act structure. They will learn the steps of screenwriting up through the treatment and then write their "set-up" -- the first 12 pages of a feature screenplay. POETRY * Getting Serious: How to Revise Your Poems Nicole Pekarske Hunt This course will introduce techniques of re-writing and editing your poems, typical of the publishing poet. The tutor will aid students through multiple re-writes of 2 or 3 of their poems, as well as providing you with a host of widely applicable fun techniques to apply to drafts in the future. * Animated Poetry in Flash Peter Howard This course is for people who want to learn how to use Macromedia Flash to create animated poetry, in which words move around, change colour and size, and so on. It will also be of value to those who want to animate other forms of text. Students need to have Flash 4 or 5."The most useful writing course I've ever done." Student, July 2001 PROFESSIONAL * Managing and teaching web-based creative writing projects.(Starter) Sue Thomas A beginner’s level guide for arts organisers, creative writing teachers, and others who are or will be managing web-based writing projects. Includes experience of the way interactivity works online, diagnosis of individual training needs and live chat meetings. You will develop fluency in online discussions, and plan a small web-based project or class. This course leads to Intermediate level in series 5. For full information about courses and tutors throughout the year go to http://tracewritingschool.com ONLINE WRITING COURSES FOR CREATIVE PEOPLE trAce Online Writing School The Nottingham Trent University Clifton Lane Nottingham NG11 8 NS UK Tel: +44(0)115 8486360 Fax: +44(0)115 8486364 Mail: traceschool@ntu.ac.uk You have received this mail because you joined trAce. To unsubscribe, just press Reply and change the subject line to UNSUB REGISTER. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 08:41:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Subject: MCP Series website & discount MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Poetics List: The Modern and Contemporary Poetics Series has a new website. Go to www.uapress.ua.edu/ and click on the MCP icon (Featured Series). Note: all website orders receive a 20% discount. All 7 current MCP books are up -- books by Christopher Beach, Rachel Blau DuPlessis & Peter Quartermain, Kathleen Fraser, Nathaniel Mackey, Mark Scroggins, Juliana Spahr, and Lorenzo Thomas. Four forthcoming books are also up: Led by Language: The Poetry and Poetics of Susan Howe by Rachel Tzvia Back Digital Poetics: The Making of E-Poetries by Loss Glazier We Who Love to Be Astonished: Experimental Women's Writing and Performance Poetics edited by Laura Hinton and Cynthia Hogue Telling it Slant: Avant-Garde Poetics of the 1990s edited by Mark Wallace and Steven Marks ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:00:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Re: "JOHN ASHBERY" INTERVIEW YOU LIST IS A FALSIFICATION Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Jeffrey, I suppose you feel angered and/or morally outraged by the interview & poems and by the fact that I'd publish them, knowing what they were, and that's what gives you the right to post and forward my private emails to you like this? Okay, I guess I can understand that. If you want, I'll tell you why I thought Jacques' interview and the other person's "Ashbery" poems were worth publishing. But not until (1) you can name the person who wrote the interview with John Cage that embarrassed George Plimpton for five minutes and (2) can tell me everything you know about Pierre Menard. You seem to like being a private investigator. You'll have fun tracking those two things down. Gary >From: Jeffrey Jullich >To: jan@pridmore.com >CC: UB Poetics discussion group , >Gary Sullivan >Subject: "JOHN ASHBERY" INTERVIEW YOU LIST IS A FALSIFICATION >Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 10:12:13 -0400 > >Dear Jan Pridmore: > >I wanted to make sure that you're aware that the Jacques Debrot/"John >Ashbery" interview whose URL you give on >http://www.literaryhistory.com/20thC/Ashbery.htm alongside authentic >materials is a hoax. > >Those words are by no means John's. Gary Sullivan, the "editor" of the >on-line "journal" where the forgery was uploaded has, obviously, >remained irresponsible about checking on the consequences of his fraud. > >My commendations on your web site's diligence and labor. > >Jeffrey Jullich >Columbia University >-------------------------------------- > >Subject: Re: John Ashbery interview hoax on read.me > Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:38:10 -0400 > From: "Gary Sullivan" > To: jj20@columbia.edu > >Hi Jeffrey, > >Yes, I knew the interview was a hoax; I saw Jacques read it last year at >the >Project. > >I asked Jacques if he'd send along "Ashbery" poems, too, but he never >wound >up doing that, so I got someone else to do that. > >Thanks, > >Gary > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:12:04 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: Kent Johnson interview Comments: To: andrew@litvert.com, kljohnson45@hotmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It would be great if Andrew Felsinger's brilliant interview w/ Kent Johnson=20 at the new _VeRT_ <> directs attention back to its=20 instigating text _Doubled Flowering: from the Notebooks of Araki Yasusada_.= =20 Bill Friend, I think, can talk w/ more authority about Johnson's theories of= =20 authorship which, though articulated w/ nervy energy and a complicated,=20 baroque intelligence, strike me as something like a first person collage in= =20 which the implications of post-modern authorship are relentlessly faced up t= o=20 (absurdly), instead of lip-served and evaded. =20 If all writers are of course *positioned*, writing itself is also, I'd argue= ,=20 a form of schizophrenia, a "magical psychosis" of alternate selves and=20 proliferating coincidences. Johnson himself writes from the position of=20 being nobody and nothing. The abjectness of this strategy is apparent in hi= s=20 sometimes humiliating behavior on various listservs. But it has other=20 implications; as Perloff notices, literary hoaxes are essentially end-runs=20 around the incestuous bureaucratic processes of cultural legitimation. =20 Johnson, moreover, continues to play out the Yasusada hoax (in ways that=20 perhaps no one is yet aware of) w/ an entirely new savoir-faire. "Fooling=20 you" is for him practically only an ancillary aim. _Doubled Flowering_ is itself more=E2=80=94but not at all less=E2=80=94than=20= Yasusada's=20 extraordinarily beautiful notebook entries. It's framed, if you haven't ye= t=20 seen it, by vertiginous appendicies from Perloff and others, so that it read= s=20 really like a po-mo novel--accessible in ways that much of po-mo writing=20 isn't, inaccessible in the way that po-mo writing always attempts to, but=20 often fails to be. Is it racist? Does it present an exoticized--an in*authentic*--and a=20 sensationalized --as opposed to a *sincere*--version of Japanese culture? =20 The question itself reveals the deep investments we still retain in so-calle= d=20 reactionary ideologies. The premise of the book though is, from the pov of=20 perpetrating a hoax, ridiculous. Jack Spicer of all people turns out,=20 improbably, to be Yasusada's principal influence. The logistics of this=20 scenario (considering that Yasuada's latest work dates from 1972) are--think= =20 about it for a second--impossible, really. Not to mention all the other=20 fairly blatant anachronisms throughout the Yasusada notebooks. Perloff=20 argues, for this reason, that Johnson, far from trying to pull off a fraud,=20 deliberately loads the book with clues as to its inauthenticity. Perhaps. =20 But I think also that Doubled Flowering is, at its core, an historical=20 romance: imagine a Japan (the Japan of Barthes's _Empire of Signs_, a Japan= =20 as unreal & as aestheticized as Proust's Paris) inhabited somehow by Jack=20 Spicer (the Spicer of Johnson's own fascinated projections). If the book i= s=20 a hoax, it's one directly inspired by _After Lorca_ as well as being an=20 extended meditation on, and a funhouse reflection of it. I think in fact=20 that _DF_ belongs ultimately to the genre of literary admiration. It has a= =20 likeness in a dimension or two to Nabokov's _Pale Fire_, & Proust's _Contre=20 Saint-Beuve. If not, obviously, quite as good as *these*, it's as good as=20 poetry gets today. --jacques =20 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:35:17 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: Friend/Felsinger MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Of course, Bill Friend--not Andrew Felsinger--interviewed Kent Johnson, apologies. Though I have heard that Friend really is Felsinger . . . ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:21:05 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: { brad brace } Subject: Formlessness Comments: To: avant-garde@lists.village.virginia.edu, wr-eye-tings@cedar.miyazaki-mu.ac.jp, ht_lit@consecol.org In-Reply-To: <200108292204.SAA66932@mail-gw.dmv.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Formlessness is a tool. Never confuse it with a go-with-the-flow style, or with a religious resignation to the twists of fortune. Learning to adapt to each new circumstance means seeing events through your own eyes, and often ignoring the advice that people constantly peddle your way. It means ultimately that you must throw out the laws that others preach, and the books that they write to tell you what to do, and the sage advice of the elder. The laws that govern circumstances are abolished by new circumstances. Rely too much on other people's ideas and you end up taking a form not of your own making. Too much respect for other people's wisdom will make you depreciate your own. Be brutal with the past, especially your own, and have no respect for the philosophies that are foisted on you from the outside. The 12hr-ISBN-JPEG Project >>>> since 1994 <<<< + + + serial ftp://ftp.eskimo.com/u/b/bbrace + + + eccentric ftp://ftp.idiom.com/users/bbrace + + + continuous ftp://ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace + + + hypermodern ftp://ftp.rdrop.com/pub/users/bbrace + + + imagery ftp://ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace News://alt.binaries.pictures.12hr ://a.b.p.fine-art.misc Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html http://www.eskimo.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html Mirror: http://bbrace.laughingsquid.net/ { brad brace } <<<< bbrace@eskimo.com >>>> ~finger for pgp ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 16:32:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - constant attack. nothing happens anymore. you threaten jerk. you keep talking and talking about killing this is disgusting. this there is nothing so miserable. you work the same themes until suicide you you're taking the rest of us along with you. you keep behind yourself. and "Nikuko" and "Jennifer" - all women - you're afraid to half-dead and the woodwork, exposure yourself. you can't hiding sentence "she" and "her" you're a fraud - your programming is terrible, you're fudge come out of you're far too nervous, and your exhibitionism put a borders together. you hope by exposing everything that the great you approval everything, somehow descend on you. you hope you'll finally feel even on perversion. human, it won't work you jerk. she sniffed and sniveled in the sky will cried and kept on about it. she buried her head and felt the slightest bit for herself. she felt unbelievably sorry for herself. she and cried and reached the dead end of everything. she felt sorry for incredibly sorry herself that she had reached the dead end of everything, thought she had. approval in the sky will somehow descend on you. you hope you'll finally borders on perversion. you hope by exposing everything that the great feel even the slightest bit human, it won't work you jerk. she sniffed and felt incredibly sorry for herself. she felt unbelievably sorry for herself. she thought she had reached the dead end of everything. she felt hiding behind "she" and "her" and "Nikuko" and "Jennifer" - all women - put a sentence together. you're a fraud - your programming is terrible, sniveled and cried and cried and kept on about it. she buried her head and sorry for herself that she had reached the dead end of everything. this is disgusting. this constant attack. nothing happens anymore. you threaten suicide you jerk. you keep talking and talking about killing you fudge everything, you're far too nervous, and your exhibitionism you're afraid to come out of the woodwork, exposure yourself. you can't you're half-dead and you're taking the rest of us along with you. you keep yourself. there is nothing so miserable. you work the same themes until ... _ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 17:03:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Garin Lee Cycholl Subject: NEAR SOUTH now available MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The first issue of Near South is now available, including poems/translations by: Rosmarie Waldrop Sterling Plumpp Ralph Mills Jeff Clark Joshua Clover David Wray Geraldine McKenzie John Latta Barbara Guest Michael Anania Jennifer Moxley Lisa Lubasch Jeffery Renard Allen and Trane DeVore To receive a copy, please send a $5 check (made payable to "John Breedlove") to: Near South c/o John Breedlove 5829 S. Troy Chicago, IL 60629 We are also seeking poems for our next issue. They can be mailed to the same address. Questions regarding submissions can be sent by e-mail to Garin Cycholl at gcycho1@hotmail.com . ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 17:36:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Subject: Fwd: Tickets on sale now for Anne Carson's "Decreation: Fight Cherries" at CCAC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit THE CCAC INSTITUTE PRESENTS ANNE CARSON’S "DECREATION: FIGHT CHERRIES", AN OPERA INSTALLATION Logan Galleries, California College of Arts and Crafts 1111 Eighth Street (at 16th and Wisconsin streets), San Francisco Performances September 6, 7, 8, 13, 14 and 15 at 8 pm Tickets $15; CCAC students, faculty, and staff free with current identification For more information please call (415) 551-9210. Renowned poet and writer Anne Carson and acclaimed Bay Area composer Guillermo Galindo will collaborate on Decreation: Fight Cherries, an opera installation based on the life and thought of French philosopher Simone Weil (1909–43). Fight Cherries is directed by Kenn Watt and stars Amy X Neuburg as Simone Weil. The performance, conducted by Mary Chun, also features singers Valentina Osinski, Richard Mix, and Gary Rushman. The musicians are Paula Cekola, piano; Joel Davel, percussion; Donelle Page, harp; and Ruth Stuart, oboe. Yim Lim is the set designer; Kim Anno is the artistic designer. Simone Weil was a philosopher, teacher, revolutionary, writer, ascetic and mystic who, during her short life, worked in an automobile factory and served as a soldier in the Spanish Civil War. Albert Camus called her “the only great spirit of our time.” She died at age 34 in England of tuberculosis, a condition exacerbated by her refusing to eat more than the standard rations the Nazis allowed her compatriots in occupied France. Anne Carson, a classically trained poet whose work references both ancient and contemporary cultures, recently received a MacArthur “Genius” Award. Her published works include Eros the Bittersweet; Glass, Irony and God; Plainwater; Autobiography of Red; and a translation with commentary and notes of Sophokles’ Elektra. Her most recent book is The Beauty of the Husband (Knopf, 2001). She has received the Lannan Literary Award for Poetry, the Pushcart Prize for Poetry and a Guggenheim Fellowship. She is a professor of classics at McGill University in Montreal. This fall Carson will be a visiting writer-in-residence in CCAC’s graduate writing program. The work of Guillermo Galindo, which ranges from digital sound design for media and live performance to chamber and orchestral composition, has been published and performed around the world. Galindo is a sound specialist and music research consultant at the Oakland Museum of California and has written music for the San Francisco–based Asian American Dance Performances for eight years. Kenn Watt is the artistic associate of the Magic Theatre and the founder and artistic director of the Fifth Floor company. He is a recipient with Charles Mee Jr. of a 2001 Pew Charitable Trust/Theatre Communications Group National Theatre Artist Residency award and a National Endowment for the Arts/Theatre Communications Group Directing Fellowship. Two related events will complement the performances. On September 11 at 5 pm, Carson and Galindo will speak about their collaboration in a talk entitled Discussing Decreation. The talk will take place in the Maude Fife Room, 315 Wheeler Hall, on the campus of the University of California, Berkeley. For more information please call Consortium for the Arts at (510) 642-7784 or visit www.bampfa.berkeley.edu/bca/. On October 26 at 7 pm, Carson will appear at a reception and reading celebrating the release of a limited-edition book of the libretto for The Mirror of Simple Souls, another work in the Decreation series. For this letterpress intaglio volume, Carson collaborated with Kim Anno, an associate professor of fine arts at CCAC. Anno created prints and monotypes for the book. The event, part of the San Francisco Center for the Book’s Poets Pulling Prints series, will take place at the Center, 300 De Haro Street, San Francisco. For more information please call the Center at (415) 565-0545 or visit www.sfcb.org. Established in 1998, the CCAC Institute serves as a forum for the presentation and discussion of leading-edge local, national and international contemporary culture. Through exhibitions, the Capp Street Project residency program, lectures, symposia, performances and publications in the fields of art, architecture and design, the Institute fosters interaction among the students and faculty of CCAC; art, architecture and design professionals; and the general public. Founded in 1907 at the height of the Arts and Crafts movement, CCAC is the largest regionally accredited, independent school of art and design in the western United States. Noted for the interdisciplinary nature and breadth of its programs, CCAC offers studies in 16 majors in the schools of fine arts, architecture and design. CCAC offers bachelor of fine arts, bachelor of architecture, master of fine arts and master of arts degrees. With campuses in Oakland and San Francisco, CCAC currently enrolls 1,200 full-time students. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 17:39:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Subject: Small Press Traffic -- Sept 7 -- Reception plus Berssenbrugge & Tysh Comments: To: mwsasso@aol.com, Normacole@aol.com, rgluck@sfsu.edu, giovann@aol.com, yedd@aol.com, junona@pacbell.net, sh@well.com, tbrady@msgidirect.com, eliztj@hotmail.com, kevinkillian@earthlink.net, twinklejoi@juno.com, brent@spdbooks.org, cartograffiti@mindspring.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Friday, September 7, 2001 6 p.m. : Reception celebrating our Archive 7:30 p.m.: Mei-Mei Berssenbrugge & Chris Tysh Welcome to fall 2001 at Small Press Traffic! We begin tonight with a gala evening. At 6 we host a reception celebrating our Archive’s new home at Simpson Library, CCAC. At 7:30, a reading by luminous poets Mei-Mei Berssenbrugge & Chris Tysh. Mei-Mei Berssenbrugge was born in Beijing and grew up in Massachusetts. Her books include The Heat Bird (Burning Deck, winner of an American Book Award), Empathy (Station Hill), and Four Year Old Girl (Kelsey Street). Her collaborations include artists books with Richard Tuttle and Kiki Smith, and theatre works with Frank Chin, Blondell Cummings, Tan Dun, Shi Zhen Chen and Alvin Lucier. She has been a contributing editor of Conjunctions magazine since 1978, and has taught at Brown University and the Institute of American Indian Arts. Once an associate of Georgia O'Keefe, she is active in both Native and Asian American cultural movements, and recently read at the UN. Chris Tysh is currently working on a film script based on the works of Bataille; her new book is Continuity Girl. Previous works include Porne, Secrets of Elegance, and Coat of Arms, the last of which includes prose poems investigating the semi-ancient arts of heraldry and femininity. Lyn Hejinian says of Coat of Arms: “The very fact that we call heraldic symbols ‘devices’ makes them vulnerable to another realm -- the poetic -- where prerogatives can be rethought and ultimately dispersed. Tysh's writing doesn’t say we shouldn't be somewhere, but it acts out a being there in a different (gorgeous and unpunishing) way.” Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson, Executive Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCAC 1111 Eighth Street San Francisco, California 94107 415/551-9278 http://www.sptraffic.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 09:45:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Good Foot Editors Subject: New Poetry Magazine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I am the co-editor of a new poetry magazine, Good Foot. I am writing specifically to arrange to post a call for submissions for the 2nd issue on your list. Subscription Info & Submissions to: Good Foot P.O. Box 681 Murray Hill Station New York, NY 10156 goodfooted@hotmail.com Thanks, Amanda Johnson _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 22:10:18 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Irving Weiss Subject: Arnold Dreyblatt exhibit Comments: To: wr-eye-tings@cedar.miyazaki-mu.ac.jp, avant-garde@lists.village.Virginia.EDU, ht_lit@consecol.org The Jewish Museum at 1109 5th Avenue and 92nd Street, NYC 10128 (212-423-3200) will be featuring an exhibit from September 9, 2001, through February 10, 2002. (www.thejewishmuseum.org) consisting of Ben Katchor: Picture-Stories Doug and Mike Starn: Rampart's Cafe Arnold Dreyblatt: The Re-Collection Mechanism I want to call attention to the installation of the American artist Arnold Dreyblatt: The Re-Collection Mechanism, Since Arnold Dreyblatt has been living in Berlin from the mid-1980’s on, his art is very little known in this country, although as a composer and interactive electronic installation artist, it has been seen and heard throughout most countries of Western and Eastern Europe. Although this will be his first installation in the U.S. performances of his New Orchestra of Excited Strings have been heard in Boston, at MIT, and New York City in the last two years. On October 28 at the Brooklyn Academy of Music, New York, there will be a Bang On A Can Marathon Performance of Dreyblatt’s New Orchestra of Excited Strings. The works of an artist in which the sensory elements of living space are most important are not easy to describe—even if they are also based on texts and archival material. The main reason why poets, writers, and conceptual artists as well, as painters and musicians would be interested in finally encountering Dreyblatt pieces in North America, can be found in knowing about the biographical encyclopedia Who’s Who in Central & Eastern Europe. This book has formed a vital part of various works of Dreyblatt’s art based on the forces of memory, recollection, and recording of photographs and texts of 20th century European social experience. Dreyblatt discovered the Who’s Who book in a Turkish bookstall in 1985. It had originally been published in English in 1935 and later revised. He adapted it to his own uses as a project in recovering and re-activating historical and biographical memories. These two editions were the first and last mid-European biographical dictionaries to be published until Who's Who in the Socialist Countries of Europe came out in 1989. (The revised Who’s Who of 1935 is now available in a recent German translation.) As can be seen from its title, The Recollection Mechanism, opening at the Jewish Museum September 9, is part of Dreyblatt’s archival enterprise which took different forms over the years (The Memory Projects, The Spaces of Memory, The Reading Room). They stem from Dreyblatt’s revitalizing the 20th century anonymous European experience of being caught up in historical tides. Dreyblatt’s works have been seen and heard in various cities of Germany, Switzerland, Holland, Denmark, and Luxembourg for the last fifteen years. Consult his website at www.dreyblatt.de/ for more complete information. Or e-mail me as above. I don’t represent The Jewish Museum—I know Arnold Dreyblatt’s work as a visual poet and friend. Irving Weiss http://members.tripod.com/~sialbach/ --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Delmarva Online's Webmail. http://www.dmv.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:31:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: "DeBrot" virus spreading [answer to an old "KNOCK KNOCK WHO'S THERE?" joke] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Given >> >> (1) that Gary Sullivan circulated a falsified Ashbery interview and >> forged Ashbery poems (identity of author, not "DeBrot," still >> withheld by Sullivan),--- and >> >> (2) that this unreliability has already entered into circulation and >> spurred further misinformation via literaryhistory.com,--- and >> >> (3) Given that Andrew Felsinger of litvert.com has published not >> only "DeBrot" (in a case already commanding its own separate >> international threats of lawsuit), but that litvert.com is also >> strongly associated with Kent Johnson (suspected "forger" behind the >> Yasusada deception) who espouses "heteronymity" and the widespread, >> strategic use of noms-de-plume/noms-de-guerre and false identities >> as a literary strategy,--- AND --- >> >> (4) NOTO BENE --- that litvert.com published in its first issue a >> poem by one "John Ashbery,"--- >> >> there is strong reason to believe that the litvert.com "Ashbery" >> poem is also a forgery. >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> It remains to be seen how the graduate English Dept. of Harvard >> University reacts to one of their Ph.D. candidates ("DeBrot") >> participating in a "ring" of falsification, and disseminating >> inauthentic documents within his own research field. >> >> In the tiny field of George Chapman autograph studies (translator of >> Homer), there was a forger who compulsively altered any manuscripts >> that might pass through his hands. The verifiability of all Chapman >> sources must be triple-checked against whether the forger could have >> ~potentially~ come in contact with the documents, in which case they >> are rendered dubious. (If there ~were~ a Harvard doctoral candidate >> worth his snuff, he would be able to supply the missing name of the >> forger.) >> >> Gary Sullivan's perpetration of the "DeBrot" "hoax" places into >> question all contiguous parties, and it corrupts the credibility of >> all publications therein. Note the similarity between the poem >> attributed to "Benjamin Friedlander" (below) and an on-line poem >> credited to "Jacques DeBrot" (thereunder, >> http://www.theeastvillage.com/tb/debrot/p2.htm): >> >> ---------------------------------- >> "FRIEDLANDER": >> >> MOTHER >> >> It hurts >> to chew on >> the nipple of your pain >> and feel the milk- >> lessness of time >> from the wrong end >> of a nursing grudge >> cowed by a pendulous Why? >> ---------------------------------- >> "DeBrot": >> >> gluhhnkKKK-K >> >> Your tongue makes my breasts girls. Clench up >> and ball the nipple curving back, slapping against the mud. >> The nerves jump intrin- >> sically -- cow finger glistening >> like nibbling candy. Start slowly, wonder >> the bone of it while >> my mess grows a pencil. Why?. >> ----------------------------------- >> >> The identities of all List members using @hotmail accounts (like >> Sullivan) or other such free addresses that do not verify sender >> identity are open to doubt. Kent Johnson's "heteronymity" proposes >> an entire ~community~ of fictionalized participants ("writing to and >> about each other and back to their creators and through time, >> re-valuing, dis-assembling, re-making the canon. What will the >> poetry world do with this?": >> http://www.litvert.com/KJ_Interview.html). Much of the List >> exchanges you have been reading may have been between different >> "heteronyms", personae, and sign-ons by the same writer or group of >> writers. > >> (Please note recent, sudden switching back and forth between e-mail >> addresses, changes of already fatuous sign-ons (from "][-n serf[" to >> "][mex][", say), or the affixing of comical names ("Jennifer", for a >> man) or "Jackson" as an previously unused second last name >> coincidentally with List mentions of Laura Riding Jackson! or when >> one "character" calls another by a wrong name ("Jim-- I'm humiliated >> to be called Pierre after we've spent nights drinking 1/2 a dozen >> times together & you've published me in _canihaveyr_") in ways that >> are unnecessarily but conspicuously reenforcing earlier suspect >> claims documenting their existence. Remain alert!) >> >> Jim Behrle of canyouhaveyourballsback.com is practicing a form of >> "reverse" or quasi-heteronymity, mailing his publication "11" to >> people with the name "Zoe Johnson." "Michael Magee" (editor of >> Combo) and "Jordan Davis" (editor of The Hat) are published in 11. >> >> "Jacques Debrot" is the name of the cultural minister of The >> Antilles (http://www.litvert.com/KJ_Interview.html). > >> ********************************************************** >> "Julu: This is a mess, just a blank, a brick, salvaged from the >> Amaya >> test browser. Just a moment, the phone is ringing. >> >> Julu: As I was saying, this is a mess. There's nothing to it, >> nothing. >> The substitutions are weak; there's nothing to be done about it. It >> was >> saved from Amaya through lynx. Hold on, someone's at the door." >> >> --- Sondheim, Alan, (Untitled) Thu, 5 Jun 1997 >> > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 09:51:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Prose Acts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PROSE ACTS brings together importantly fearless poets, writers, and musicians for an incisive four-day affair in Buffalo, New York. It looks like a conference but thinks more like a festival. It acts like a festival but will be like a big brainstorm. Our confirmed participants include Dennis Cooper, Eileen Myles, Dodie Bellamy, Kevin Killian, Robert Gluck, Matthew Stadler, White Collar Crime, Roberto Tejada, Ether Drag, Lawrence Braithwaite, Swis Dot, and The National. SCOUT, a live compilation of writers and musicians that began at Threadwaxing Space in Manhattan is doing a ten-day event at Hallwalls in Buffalo. The first week overlaps and joins forces with Prose Acts. Confirmed artists include The Need, Michelle Tea, Bruce Benderson, Mary Gaitskill, Ishle Park, Magic Twelve, and many more. Further information is available at ; watch for updates as I just built the site yesterday. Even further information will be available later this month at the Hallwalls site . Brandon Stosuy and Christopher W. Alexander conference organizers ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 14:12:22 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ammonides diodoros Subject: Re: formlessness Comments: cc: bbrace@wiredmag.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Brad Brace said: Brad, I don't say this to be snide, because I do sympathize with the general direction that I sense in what you say. HOWEVER: 1)When "formlessness" becomes a "tool", it assumes a certain "form". So beware of "Formless tools"! 2) Forms may be tools to smash forms into formlessness. So beware of throwing any tools you might have bequeathed from your grandfathers into the dumpster. 3) The Heart Sutra says, "Form is emptiness, emptiness is form." So beware of embracing only one. Ammonides ------------- Brad Brace said: "Formlessness is a tool. Never confuse it with a go-with-the-flow style, or with a religious resignation to the twists of fortune. Learning to adapt to each new circumstance means seeing events through your own eyes, and often ignoring the advice that people constantly peddle your way. It means ultimately that you must throw out the laws that others preach, and the books that they write to tell you what to do, and the sage advice of the elder. The laws that govern circumstances are abolished by new circumstances. Rely too much on other people's ideas and you end up taking a form not of your own making. Too much respect for other people's wisdom will make you depreciate your own. Be brutal with the past, especially your own, and have no respect for the philosophies that are foisted on you from the outside." _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp